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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Thanks to Mikecro on WargamerAU:::: ---------------------------------------------------- On Warseer, cookiescrumble wrote:
So i read the Empire Army book...
... so i thought i would share the things that i remember.
First of all, Characters.
-There are 6 special characters, 4 Lord and 2 Hero.
-The Lord ones are: Karl Franz (who can ride an Imperial Dragon ), Kurt Hellborg (sp?), Volkmar and Balthasar Gelt
Emperor Franz costs 350, wears full plate, silver seal and runefang or Ghal Moraz for +30p. can ride empire dragon for +320p., griffin for +225p., pegasus for +50p., horse with barding for +21p.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Franz 4 6 5 4 4 3 6 4 10
-The hero ones are: Luthor Huss and someone else.
-There is a new lord choice available, The Arch Lector.
Core Units
-Spearmen and Halberdiers are now 5pts each.
-Swordsmen are 6pts each
-Knights are still 23pts each and one unit can be Inner Circle. This unit becomes a special choice.
-Hangunners, Crossbowmen, Archers and Free company are unchanged.
Special Units
-Greatswords are now 10pts each
-Pistoliers are now 18pts each
-New Unit, Outriders. These are basically Pistoliers that are 21pts each and have repeater Handguns.
-Cannon and Mortar Unchanged
Rare Units
- Volley Gun is now 110pts and there is no short range (i.e all shots are S5, armour piercing.) Roll the artillery dice 3 times to see how many shots it fires. You then need to roll as normal on the crews BS to see how many hit. Then roll to wound.
-New Rocket Thingy, thinks it is called Rocketstorm. This is basically a S5 Mortar. The initial guess is like a cannon, place the template after adding the artillery dice. Then it scatters like a Mortar
-Flagellents. Before fighting a round of combat you can sacrifice D3 guys as Martyrs. Depending on the number that become Martyrs, they gain bonuses e.g Hatred and Re-rolling rolls to Wound, can't remember the 3rd.
-Steam Tank. This now has S6, T6 and 10 wounds. Generates steam points before and this determines how far it can move. The steam point generation system has changed. It is not a Chariot as previously said.
Other stuff:
-Box sets of State Troops and Handgunners are boxes of 10 and are rumoured to cost £12 (AUS$30) a box.
-There is a Mechanical horse that is available to engineers, this is a barded warhorse that does D3 S4 Impact hits.
-Warrior Priests prayers are now Bound level 4, the arch lector can do 2 a turn.
- There are 3 new Warrior Priest Models, 2 of them are cool but one of them has stupidly large Mickey mouse gloves on.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
I'm going to be doing an Empire army as it was the first army I ever did way back in 1990.... Cheaper state troops! Heavy cav that isn't going up in price! Decent warrior priests and flagellants! And all the rest. GROOVY....
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Post by: Infantryman
All cool, cept the mechanical horse thing seems weird.
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Post by: Schepp himself
Yeah, but other than that? Sounds promising.
I kind of like the policy that they don't change too much from 6th to 7th edition.
And the steampunk stuff doesn't go too far...i feared Gw would go crazy with this one.
Greets
Schepp himself
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Post by: Ghaz
Posted by Waaagh_Gonads on 11/17/2006 4:25 PM
There is a Mechanical horse that is available to engineers, this is a barded warhorse that does D3 S4 Impact hits. Thee is a picture of the Mounted Engineer on Mechanical Steed on page 142 of US White Dwarf #323 (Dec. '06). It's not a bad looking model. It looks more like a statue of a warhorse than a robot, with only a few exposed pistons on the legs that show that it's a mechanical steed. It will retail for $20.
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Post by: jojo_monkey_boy
Warseer has a scan of a picture of the mechanical horse. I think it looks really stupid.
It looks like something you'd expect to see in 40k.
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
Well if you ignore the absurdity of a mechanical horse in warhammer fantasy then it looks really cool. But not empire. It is, however, a sweet model for an imperial guard army 
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Post by: Infantryman
Can you link the pic?
And when does that army book come out...
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Post by: fellblade
While I think the idea is cool and the execution is nice, I wonder when I will ever want to have my Engineer charge into close combat...
The Helblaster has simply become a sort of long-range Leadbelcher? Meh.
Give up a special slot to take Inner Circle? Meh.
Fast Cav with move-or-fire weapons... still trying to decide how well that will work. At least there is a use for my old outrider models again.
Finally, a reason to field my 50-strong unit of Flagellants!
As ever, I await the book with eagerness. These rumors do little to cheer me. Volkmar... herioc, pre-Storm of Chaos, War-Altar-riding stud; or broken, post-Storm of Chaos, I-was-Archaon's-Banner fanatic? And which sculpt would you prefer, anyway?
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Post by: jojo_monkey_boy
Fast Cav with move-or-fire weapons... still trying to decide how well that will work.
Outriders sound tasty IMO. You can't think of them as fast cavalry, because they don't really serve the same purpose. Think of them as really mobile and sturdy missile troops who can, if needed, provide flanking. You march them up to a position and just let loose with your guns. The trade-off between barding and them being fast-cav is that with barding they're pretty resilient to shooting (4+ save) but cannot avoid combat as well.
The special slots are super competitive now... Cheaper greatswords, outriders, cannons, mortars and IC knights.
All the infantry is cheaper too, which is fantastic IMO.
On the whole, it seems like it will be a good book. They've ironed out some of the lame things from the old book (knight abuse, stupid stank rules) and added a few new things (rocket launcher, new flagellants, outriders)
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Post by: Angron
What I love is that nobody said a thing when the orcs got the ironback boar..... which is a mechanical boar... not one eye was batted... but empire gets a mechanical horse.... oh no... that's absurd.
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Post by: fellblade
A very trenchant point!
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Post by: jojo_monkey_boy
The ironback boar actually has a basis in the fluff, where the mechanical horse does not.
The ironback boar is a chaos dwarf creation, am I correct? The chaos dwarfs made both the hellcannon and the robotic mount for that ogre-kingdoms character, using demonic possession. Thus, there's some basis for the boar existing.
Then we look at the empire, for whom creating a steam driven tank is an incredible achievement which is seemingly impossible to replicate (there are only 8? steam tanks). Yet, despite this, they can create robotic horses that shoot lightning.
It's a bit far-fetched.
Driving a land boat with steam powered locomotion vs. creating a working robotic horse. They're not even close to the same degrees of complexity.
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Post by: beef
what doe sthis horse look like someone post a link pls.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
MECHANOHORSE'SPLOSION Not really what I was expecting at all, and actually a little neat. The Engineer's hat however borders upon the vomitous ... - Boss Salvage
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Posted By fellblade on 11/20/2006 9:54 AM While I think the idea is cool and the execution is nice, I wonder when I will ever want to have my Engineer charge into close combat...
I wondered that myself, but having seen the model now, maybe he scoots along with some (barded) outriders, so as to get his dakka on? That said, I actually kind of like the old dude on steed. Hack the thing off his head and I wouldn't mind running him ... you know, in the Empire army I'm not building 
- Boss Salvage
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Post by: carmachu
Warseer has a scan of a picture of the mechanical horse. I think it looks really stupid.
It looks like something you'd expect to see in 40k. And I bet you will see it ALOT in 40k...... BT "knight" bike squads and such. Or cooler IG rough riders.
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Post by: hubcap
Yeah, it's pretty dumb. A ways back USWD had a Clockwork Horse conversion made by a staffer - basically two wooden wheels underneath an Empire horse body. I liked that one a lot more - cruder but more charming than this. It was a Clockwork Horse, not a Robot Horse.
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Post by: Witterquick
Looks a lot like the horse from Galaxy Rangers.
So GW is feeling the Steampunk heat, hunh? That is great, only if it means that someone if finally appearing competitive.
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Post by: Kommisar
Posted By hubcap on 11/20/2006 2:28 PM
Yeah, it's pretty dumb. A ways back USWD had a Clockwork Horse conversion made by a staffer - basically two wooden wheels underneath an Empire horse body. I liked that one a lot more - cruder but more charming than this. It was a Clockwork Horse, not a Robot Horse.
That was a long time ago. Around the time of the Albion Campaign if memory serves. I think it was by Joe Sleboda. I thought it was rather neat at the time. Much better than this abomination at least.
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
Posted By Kommisar on 11/20/2006 2:58 PM Posted By hubcap on 11/20/2006 2:28 PM
Yeah, it's pretty dumb. A ways back USWD had a Clockwork Horse conversion made by a staffer - basically two wooden wheels underneath an Empire horse body. I liked that one a lot more - cruder but more charming than this. It was a Clockwork Horse, not a Robot Horse.
That was a long time ago. Around the time of the Albion Campaign if memory serves. I think it was by Joe Sleboda. I thought it was rather neat at the time. Much better than this abomination at least.
It wasn't THAT long ago now was it? Albion was only, what, three-four years ago? :S I mean, it's bad enough I entered the hobby with Rogue Trader, but Albion is still fresh in recent memory!  The S-Tank at least had one foot firmly in Fantasy land and the other stepping into Steam Punk word. Ditto with the Clockwork Horse, which was indeed pretty darn neat (crudely charming, as it was). But RoboTerminator Horse from the 41st millennium and his gatling gun & grenade launcher toting compatriots, amongst others, are sucking balls. But I guess GW is banking on the little kiddies not caring "Fantasy Mah-sheen Gunz! Kewl!1!one!! Iz Da empire like the Imperium? Who are the space marinez?!? Nites? Wut are those?"
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Post by: Jester
I think it would be a lot easier to keep a clockwork horse(ostensibly a giant watch, you can see the winder on its tail) running than a giant Steam Tank, what with the steam gun and all...
As far as feeling the steampunk heat, GW has had the Steam Tank in miniature form long before Privateer grew a pair. I'm just hoping that it will lead to a Imperial Civil War of sorts, with one faction being the Engineering School with their guns and great wood-fuelled robots, and The Colleges of Magic with lots of spells and dragonriding and stuff and the third faction being the Church of Sigmar with suicidal flagellants and warrior priests, and lots of hammers.
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Post by: Kikkoman
Posted By Jester on 11/20/2006 5:58 PM
I think it would be a lot easier to keep a clockwork horse(ostensibly a giant watch, you can see the winder on its tail) running than a giant Steam Tank, what with the steam gun and all...
As far as feeling the steampunk heat, GW has had the Steam Tank in miniature form long before Privateer grew a pair. I'm just hoping that it will lead to a Imperial Civil War of sorts, with one faction being the Engineering School with their guns and great wood-fuelled robots, and The Colleges of Magic with lots of spells and dragonriding and stuff and the third faction being the Church of Sigmar with suicidal flagellants and warrior priests, and lots of hammers.
why not compromise and unleash suicidal wizards who ride mechanical dragons?
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Post by: bigchris1313
I like the premise of the new Flagellant rules. I just wonder whether or not they'll be worth it.
Outriders sound cool but handheld gatling guns just don't do it for me.
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Post by: Infantryman
Well, my OG book is in the mail so I didn't know they got such things.
I am rather downtrodden over pistols not shooting in CC--I am definatly not getting pistoliers now.
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Post by: imthedci
Posted By Boss_Salvage on 11/20/2006 1:09 PM The Engineer's hat however borders upon the vomitous ...
That's not a hat - it's an undead targetting matrix. Just place an undead skull (still affected by necromantic magic, as seen by the glowing red eye) in the containment vessel. Now the repeating handgun's bullets fly around living units and plow into the undead. (Not that it gives a bonus or anything - but, hey, it sounds cool)
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Post by: Kotrin
Posted By Jester on 11/20/2006 5:58 PM
GW has had the Steam Tank in miniature form long before Privateer grew a pair.
Jester, you want to kill me. I laughed so hard I spilled tea all over the place. I think I'm with most of Dakka crew on the subject - this mechanical horse breaks the envelope of fantasy tech. If this iron donkey is able to move as fast as any barded horse, we've definitely entered realms of science-fiction.
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Post by: chuckyhol
What? You mean in the medieval times they DIDN'T make their horses partly mechanically?
Liar.
Chuck
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Post by: deitpike
it's a "magic" mechanical horse
pffffttt! that solves everything!
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Post by: Jester
Not magic, Enlightened Science.
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Post by: navy2af
That sounds like the old " Flight of Dragons" cartoon movie. You know, the one with John Ritter and Harry Morgan. Or maybe Ralph Bakshi's Wizards
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Post by: navy2af
That sounds like the old " Flight of Dragons" cartoon movie. You know, the one with John Ritter and Harry Morgan. Or maybe Ralph Bakshi's Wizards [edit] Sorry, I tried to quote Jester and it didn't work. This was a comment on his statement about the Engineering School vs the College of Wizards.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Posted By deitpike on 11/21/2006 5:18 PM
it's a "magic" mechanical horse
pffffttt! that solves everything!
Exactly. I don't see the issue. The empire already has steam tanks and the bird men, one more divinchi-esque invention shouldn't make or break anything. It looks kind of neat.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Posted By Jester on 11/21/2006 5:21 PM
Not magic, Enlightened Science.
Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinquishable from technology.
(props to Order of the Stick)
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Thunder! Horse!
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Post by: Manfred von Drakken
I still haven't seen the use of cavalry with move-or-fire weapons.
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Post by: Infantryman
OOC, What are the Birdmen you all speak of, and when did they enter the game?
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Post by: deitpike
the birdmen of catrazza (sp?)
dogs of war unit with davinci flying machines on their backs
I think they have crossbows
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Post by: Ahtman
They did indeed have crossbows. I had a unit of them, they were fun.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/dogsofwar/miniature-gallery/16/
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Post by: Infantryman
How long have they been around? Seem interesting and very "fantasy" like, but a tad silly.
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Post by: Jester
Many years. They came out with the old Dogs of War armybook. 4th Edition, or was it 5th?
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Post by: Infantryman
Ah. Guess I never really looked at them -- I gave DOW little notice.
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Post by: jmurph
Meh, the mechanical horse is silly. But so is half of the crud in WHFB. So what can you do? Besides use it in 40K, I mean....
Is it just me, or does the Empire seem awfully tech now, what with rocket launchers, heavy bolters errr... repeating guns, tanks, mechanical horses (ICs on bikes?) etc? I thought alot of that was more reserved for the Chaos Dwarves. What the heck will they have? Plasma? Assault Cannons?
So, if I plop down IG lasgunners (handgunners), Heavy weapons teams (mortar, launchers, etc.), Russ (steamtank), Power fist Kommisar (it's a Runefang!) etc. will anyone complain? ;-)
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Post by: Toreador
Doesn't bother me a bit. I like it. In fact it has always been a part of the Empire mythos, but mostly in story. They have made mention of all the odd contraptions that are made, even up to clockwork people.
If you don't like it, don't use it. A lot of it has always been there, just not in the army list. I don't mind it one bit. Makes for a very different fantasy army.
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
Yeah, a Sci-fi army. It's gone beyond the point of being fantasy when you have gatling guns, robot horses, multiple-rocket launchers, and assault rifles tacked on to the existing (but more realisticly possible) black powder rifles, cannons and even the steam tank. The new Empire army belongs in 40k, not Fantasy.
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Post by: Infantryman
Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 11/30/2006 12:38 PM
Yeah, a Sci-fi army. It's gone beyond the point of being fantasy when you have gatling guns, robot horses, multiple-rocket launchers, and assault rifles tacked on to the existing (but more realisticly possible) black powder rifles, cannons and even the steam tank. The new Empire army belongs in 40k, not Fantasy.
They had rocket launching platforms in the 1300's.
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Post by: fellblade
I wanna see those clockwork people. Much more reliable than the squishy kind.
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
Indeed- all of this stuff is steam punk. Steam punk and sci-fi are two different genres.
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Post by: Infantryman
I just heard today that the 20 man box of infantry is going to cost 44 dollars...please tell me this isn't true...
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
I think that would be the 20 man box of infantry WITH the 10 detachment troops, no?
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Post by: mikhaila
Reading through my preview copy tonite. Nice to see the War Alter is back, and pigeon bombs are just too cool. I can't wait to kill something with them. What an embarassing way to die. )
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Post by: Davian
Posted By mikhaila on 11/30/2006 5:04 PM
Reading through my preview copy tonite. Nice to see the War Alter is back, and pigeon bombs are just too cool. I can't wait to kill something with them. What an embarassing way to die. )
Really... How does a pidgeon carry a bomb when a swallow can't even carry a coconut?
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Post by: Infantryman
Now I don't think that would be too bad...
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
I got a hold of the new book yesterday and read it for about an hour (although I was more interested in the background rather than the minutia of the rules.
However:
All state troopers have dropped by 1 pt (but forgot to check that swordsmen kept their WS of 4)
The war alter is brilliant for 100 points allowing 1 light magic spell at Bound 5, Magic resistance 2 and some other kewl rule (I won't go further as I may end up sprouting the rules for the grand theogonist)
The elector count is gone replaced by a generic 'General' who can still bear a runefang.
The pigeon bobs are indeed cool especially with unlimited range (just need LOS) but on a 1 they blow the firer up, 2-4 nothing, 5-6 they lay the smack down on the enemy.
I'm really liking the new format GW has taken with 'named characters' being allowed by any empire army, rather than special characters being optional. As long as they don't go absolutely bananas with some of the chaos characters it will make for alot of variety.
(I played at the Brisbane GT 2 weeks ago and of the 4 O&G armies there 1 had Grimgor, 1 had Skarsnik, 2 had generic generals.
With the increased fluff I think this is a superb army book and I'll be buying it and a new Empire army....
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Post by: fellblade
Is it just me, or does the Empire seem awfully tech now, what with rocket launchers, heavy bolters errr... repeating guns, tanks, mechanical horses?
This is merely the technology of the cuckoo-clock taken to the next level.
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Post by: Jester
Posted By Waaagh_Gonads on 11/30/2006 6:02 PM
The war alter is brilliant for 100 points allowing 1 light magic spell at Bound 5, Magic resistance 2 and some other kewl rule (I won't go further as I may end up sprouting the rules for the grand theogonist)
You tease.
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Post by: Infantryman
Yeah, I'm going to buy the boxed set I think...
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Got another read today.
The flagellants whilst still rare are no longer 0-1
And if you take an arch lector as general 1 (and only 1) flagellant may be core... so you could have 90 in a 2000 point army HOWEVER at 10 points a model its becomes an expensive exercise.
At the start of each combat phase roll d3 for each flagellant unit.
That is the number of flagellants who kill themselves to give the following bonuses:
1: Hate their enemies (I assume this means reroll attacks in that round of combat)
2: Reroll failed to wound rolls
3: +1 to combat resolution.
Forgot to see if DOW units were available (you would think they were so more ogre models could be sold)
IMHO 3 leadbelchers are better than a hellblaster now: HEaps more wounds, good in combat, about as accurate as a hellblaster (as it has to roll to hit)
And the Empire swordsman keeps his WS 4 and I 4, and with the 4+ armour save makes him an absolute steal compared to the other options for state troops even though they are dropped in price too.
The great thing about the list is that I can see so much variety in the list, there are no real 'must haves' and no real duds, I'd be perfectly happy making a list just with core and characters, something I haven't wanted to do since Hordes of Chaos...
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
Wow Gonads It's great to hear GW hasn't fumbled a codex! Let's hope they keep this good work up! Thanks for the continuing news on this dex- keep those previews coming
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Post by: fellblade
pwneerar is Hastur! Not to keep beating a dead horse, but do you remember any specifics about the clockwork horse? I hope that it has some odd rules- like for example, a breakdown chart, or can only charge in a straight line, or moves 3D6 in a random direction during the compulsory moves phase....
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Post by: DarkTemplars
Posted By jmurph on 11/30/2006 8:17 AM
Is it just me, or does the Empire seem awfully tech now, what with rocket launchers, heavy bolters errr... repeating guns, tanks, mechanical horses (ICs on bikes?) etc? I thought alot of that was more reserved for the Chaos Dwarves. What the heck will they have? Plasma? Assault Cannons?
Well, considering that chaos dwarves only got rules in ravaging hordes, I would say its pretty good odds that they won't be getting any rules beyond those for this edition.
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Post by: jmurph
They had rocket launching platforms in the 1300's.
ORLY? Yes, I seem to recall the Battle of Hastings ushered in a new wave of technology with the Saxons employing shaped charges to defeat the armored vehicles of their extra terrestrial foes. Of course, by the 14th century, missile turrets were common and laser technology was quickly eclipsing the antiquated explosive projectile weapons of the Dark Ages.  Actually, they may have had some sort of propelled device, but considering that the crossbow was considered hi-tech.... They certainly didn't have widespread, meaningful use. But, it doesn't really matter- this is a make believe game of elves and faeries fighting monsters and men with clockwork missles, apparently. So they can pretty much do whatever they want. And do. Including sell us toy soldiers for obscene prices!
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Post by: fellblade
And we will buy them, yes we will...
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Post by: Infantryman
Posted By Waaagh_Gonads on 12/01/2006 3:04 AM
The great thing about the list is that I can see so much variety in the list, there are no real 'must haves' and no real duds, I'd be perfectly happy making a list just with core and characters, something I haven't wanted to do since Hordes of Chaos...
<3 for list veriety -- I'm working on an Orc and Goblin army only because they got crap loads of troop options in their old book (need to get new one); hope to see some more varied Empire armies in the next! OH! We still have detachments, right? Or do we also have some new special rules of awesome? *excited about Army Book*
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
Posted By jmurph on 12/01/2006 7:33 AM They had rocket launching platforms in the 1300's.
ORLY? Yes, I seem to recall the Battle of Hastings ushered in a new wave of technology with the Saxons employing shaped charges to defeat the armored vehicles of their extra terrestrial foes. Of course, by the 14th century, missile turrets were common and laser technology was quickly eclipsing the antiquated explosive projectile weapons of the Dark Ages. Actually, they may have had some sort of propelled device, but considering that the crossbow was considered hi-tech.... They certainly didn't have widespread, meaningful use. But, it doesn't really matter- this is a make believe game of elves and faeries fighting monsters and men with clockwork missles, apparently. So they can pretty much do whatever they want. And do. Including sell us toy soldiers for obscene prices!
[reporter's voice]This just in- scientists have confirmed that in the 1300's civilizations existed outside of Europe. No news on whether they could've been more technologically advanced then the Europeans, although that's just silly anyway! Back to you Dianne[/reporter's voice]
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Post by: Jester
Yeah, China is like the Simpsons of world civilizations; every thing you think is original, they did a thousand years ago. Paper? China did it. Gunpowder? China did it. Tanks with non-stick treads? Yep, China did it.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
Detchments are still there and at a quick look they keep the rules pretty much the same (I didn't have the old book to compare directly at the time).
Detatchments are fntastic in 7th ed with other units ignoring their panic, you can flee with no problems to set up charges, and your main units never run away thanks to the detachments. I played against empire 3 times now under 7th ed, all had heaps of state troops and detchments, I won all 3 games with my VC but it was much harder than under 6th ed, and came down to me summoning troops to their rear.
From memory it was d3 impact hits from the clockwork horse, but I didn't really look to in depth t it so it may have more rules.
Also there is a 2 page spread with colour schemes for the big towns and the states with 3 or so different troops for each region to get a good idea of how to do your uniforms (Yellow seems to heve been replaced by bubonic brown).
Thats about all I've got at the moment, I won't get to look at the book again for about a week.
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
Yes! And the Empire is clearly predicated and designed on those most mysterious machinegun toting, tank driving, rocket launching Chinese Warriors of the Thirteenth Century who were so well known for fielding batteries of black powder cannonry aside masses repeating rifles, and gatling gun and grenade launcher armed horseback hordes, some with robotic mounts! How could I forget! Which history book are you reading out of again Drake? :p
Oh yeah, this is SOOO STEAM PUNK! I wonder if my Vampires are going to get flying steam-powered caskets, uzi weilding zombies (that are as hazardous to themselves as they are to the enemy), and robotic steam gaurdians of the grave? I mean, Fantasy = Steam Punk now, right? Am I rite? Next, it's Steam Elves! Woo, sounds seksi, don't it? Perhaps they'll have massive flying steam dragons that belch awesomeness. This is the progression, right?
Seriously, I don't mind a few black powder elements in various armies. A few. But the Empire book takes it and expands it in typical GW fashion into something completely and totally over the top to the point where it breaks peoples ability to suspend disbelief that it's a fantasy game (and thereby destroy's ones ability to enjoy said game). If I wanted steampunk sci-fantasy, I'd play Warmachine or similar. Unfortunately, moderation is something GW is painfully unaware of, Over The Top is the word of the day. MORE SKULLZZZ!!!!! MOAR SPIKEZZZ!! SO GOTH IT HURTZZ!! ARGH!!
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Post by: fellblade
Heheh... steam elves... that sounds dirty....
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Post by: Jester
Nyarlathotep, you ignorant slut! Suspend disbelief? In a fantasy game? So it's perfectly alright for my opponent can have an army led by a frog that is actually an alien hybrid that casts spells and has an army of bipedal lizards, but my army that is led by an ordinary man, albeit a man armed with a magic sword who worships a barbarian who rescued a dwarf and in doing so, became a god, who commands a bunch of ordinary guys, one of whom lost his wife and daughter to goat men who are in congress with daemons, and a Wizard who went to a school that was founded by one of the greatest spellcasters of all time, who just so happens to be an elf, that's kosher, but add a clockwork horse, or gatling muskets? No, that's over the frigging line! Steampunk is an overused term that I wish would go out of use. Much like cyberpunk, it is kind of an anachronism that while sounding cool at the time, has now become lame. That being said, I think being able to take uzi wielding zombies would get me to buy sixty more skeletons.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Jester on 12/01/2006 9:30 PM
Nyarlathotep, you ignorant slut!
Suspend disbelief? In a fantasy game? So it's perfectly alright for my opponent can have an army led by a frog that is actually an alien hybrid that casts spells and has an army of bipedal lizards, but my army that is led by an ordinary man, albeit a man armed with a magic sword who worships a barbarian who rescued a dwarf and in doing so, became a god, who commands a bunch of ordinary guys, one of whom lost his wife and daughter to goat men who are in congress with daemons, and a Wizard who went to a school that was founded by one of the greatest spellcasters of all time, who just so happens to be an elf, that's kosher, but add a clockwork horse, or gatling muskets? No, that's over the frigging line!
Yes?
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Post by: Infantryman
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Infantryman on 12/01/2006 11:10 PM
i are winr?
No. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket#Origins_of_rocketry
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
Posted By bigchris1313 on 12/01/2006 10:54 PM Posted By Jester on 12/01/2006 9:30 PM
Nyarlathotep, you ignorant slut!
Suspend disbelief? In a fantasy game? So it's perfectly alright for my opponent can have an army led by a frog that is actually an alien hybrid that casts spells and has an army of bipedal lizards, but my army that is led by an ordinary man, albeit a man armed with a magic sword who worships a barbarian who rescued a dwarf and in doing so, became a god, who commands a bunch of ordinary guys, one of whom lost his wife and daughter to goat men who are in congress with daemons, and a Wizard who went to a school that was founded by one of the greatest spellcasters of all time, who just so happens to be an elf, that's kosher, but add a clockwork horse, or gatling muskets? No, that's over the frigging line!
Yes?
Correct! It's not *just* the clockwork horse and gatling muskets, but them and the steam tank and the handguns and the grenade launchers and the miniguns and the cannonry and the mortars and the rocket launchers and so on so forth. I want to play a fantasy game, not English Civil War with American Civil War tech.  Oh, and I'm fully aware of where rockets and such originated, but they were rare in China and by no means is the Empire based on Han Dynasty Chinese (whom still made proficient use of sword, bow and pole arm).
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Post by: Hordini
I also liked the Empire better when they were more English Civil War and less OTT steampunk (yeah I said it.)
They were one of the few armies in Fantasy that allowed to you to make a somewhat realistic medieval army.
Maybe you can still do that? Regardless, I don't like the mini-gun cavalry or the robo-horse.
To be honest, I wouldn't like the robo-horse even if it was in 40k and not Fantasy.
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
Posted By Hordini on 12/02/2006 6:09 AM
less OTT steampunk (yeah I said it.)
Too late- I already called it steampunk 
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Post by: Toreador
It's been too late for awhile now, people just weren't aware of it. Multi shot guns have been around for some time in the Empire army, and I still have my outriders from the previous (2 army books ago?) as proof. Steam tank has been around for quite some time. If you don't like it, don't buy it or play it. Nuff said.
Myself, I like it. Just a few more additions to an interesting and unique army.
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Post by: Infantryman
Wai? ulai2mi? But, while I don't like Robohorse, I DO like the rockets, and I'm ok with steam tank cus of our real life DiVinchi...
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Post by: Jester
Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 12/02/2006 1:25 AM Posted By bigchris1313 on 12/01/2006 10:54 PM Posted By Jester on 12/01/2006 9:30 PM
Nyarlathotep, you ignorant slut!
Suspend disbelief? In a fantasy game? So it's perfectly alright for my opponent can have an army led by a frog that is actually an alien hybrid that casts spells and has an army of bipedal lizards, but my army that is led by an ordinary man, albeit a man armed with a magic sword who worships a barbarian who rescued a dwarf and in doing so, became a god, who commands a bunch of ordinary guys, one of whom lost his wife and daughter to goat men who are in congress with daemons, and a Wizard who went to a school that was founded by one of the greatest spellcasters of all time, who just so happens to be an elf, that's kosher, but add a clockwork horse, or gatling muskets? No, that's over the frigging line!
Yes?
Correct! It's not *just* the clockwork horse and gatling muskets, but them and the steam tank and the handguns and the grenade launchers and the miniguns and the cannonry and the mortars and the rocket launchers and so on so forth. I want to play a fantasy game, not English Civil War with American Civil War tech.
You just don't want to admit that a human can invent a bomb, repeating cannon, or man-portable gatling gun, Nyarly.
You're a racist, and possibly a jacobin.
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Post by: syr8766
I had always thought the point behind Empire was, as Jester said, three different ideas (all misspellings intentional).
1. the holy Roman Empire as it might have been had the inquisition and black plague come simultaneously: intolerant, hostile, paranoid, zealous.
2. A renaissance Europe of High Magick, where the various minor royals employ students (and sometimes teachers) of the great schools of Arcane Arts to aid them at court and the battlefield alike.
3. Da Vinci's wonderous world! Fantastik machines to help the Empire of man on the battlefield against the various hordes surrounding the realm. NOT steampunk, but using Leonardo's bizarre ideas an inventions if they had been applied, including flying men, multi-shot cannon, and massive armored 'landships'.
The robo-horse is definitely over the top and could be a pandering to those have left GW for PP and Rackham; certainly it's not a step in the right direction. I always thought Empire was a good balance of all of those elements, with the possiblity of 'theming out' in one direction (army of faith, army of magic, army of machines), but your best bet was an army that combined all of those elements in moderation with state troops, knights, etc.
Whatever, they'll just be fodder for my dasterdly Warmachine and No Quarter conversions anyway...assuming I even buy any.
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Post by: jojo_monkey_boy
The only promising thing about the robo-horse is that you'll likely never see one on the battlefield because it and engineers are still absolutely horrid hero choices.
Gogo GW!
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Post by: The Crawling Chaos
Isn't Leonardo Tilean?
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Post by: syr8766
Posted By The Crawling Chaos on 12/03/2006 11:36 AM
Isn't Leonardo Tilean?
Perhaps, but there was a 'Leonardo' engineer that came with the old (4th-5th ed.) Volley Gun. Looked like him and even said 'Leonardo' on his tab! Now, if they would trade in the mounts for balloons, we'd be getting somewhere!
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Post by: Infantryman
I LIKE that baloon idea...maybe have him help modify the accuracy roll for cannons/mortars or something...(spotter)
O_O that's accually cool...
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Post by: fellblade
What syr said. Always thought they had some of the best 16th-c. figures available if you didn't want to spend money on the Foundry Renaissance line (hint hint).
I liked that old Leonardo. Made a little diorama of a volley gun all blown up, big scorch mark on the base, grunt with linstock outstretched all black down one side, real big eyes showing in soot-black face, Leo off to one side, and on clipboard, "minor problem with ignition".
Yeah, spotters for the mortar... an indirect-fire weapon that has to have line of sight (sigh). Balloons would be great until the furies/harpys/Pegasus Knights/flying unit of your choice attacks the gasbag and sends him plummeting to his death.In turn 2.
I see Engineers on clockwerke horse with Van Horstman's Speculum charging into contact with enemy Heroes, so often that any Engineer on clockwerke horse is automatically assumed to have V.H. Spec. Much the same way any goblin hero on a wolf all by himself is assumed to have the Brimstone Bauble. "A goblin hero just charged my general? Of course he is a suicide bomber! Champion! Job for you!"
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Post by: Infantryman
Posted By fellblade on 12/03/2006 3:50 PM.
Yeah, spotters for the mortar... an indirect-fire weapon that has to have line of sight (sigh). Balloons would be great until the furies/harpys/Pegasus Knights/flying unit of your choice attacks the gasbag and sends him plummeting to his death.In turn 2.
Give 'em gunz!
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Post by: Jester
Plague Zombie Grenade Launchers? That would be cool, and historically accurate!
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Post by: Hordini
Posted By Jester on 12/03/2006 5:51 PM
Plague Zombie Grenade Launchers? That would be cool, and historically accurate!
Then GW could release Empire and Bretonnian archers without pants, to represent troops with dysentery! Yes! Sounds like a couple of great releases for Warhammer Siege. Malfred alone would probably buy enough pant-less archers to replace GW's financial "LotR bubble." Cha-ching! $$$
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Post by: Jester
"Not that arrow, Manfred!"
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Post by: Drake_Marcus
Careful boys- the other mods will gang close this in a blink of the eye
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Post by: Infantryman
So I wonder what the Pistoliers are like now?
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Post by: malfred
Mods do gang modding? Where can I download that vid?
My concern about the clockwork horse is rather odd...it looks too much
like a real horse. I was expecting something more Dave McKean or more
staticky strange.
Maybe they can make robotic versions of the MC Hammer pants...
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Post by: Jester
Stop! Hammerzeit!
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
"Kann dies nicht berühren!" Oh, snap, Hordak, exalt for you brother! EXALT! Those archers won't have to reach for to apply the "poison" to their arrows... not far at all... 
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Post by: The Crawling Chaos
I can't find my Dogs of War Armybook, but according to Wikipedia, Leonardo was from Tilea (Miragliano to be specific) and then went to work for the Empire. So we're both right . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilea#The_Once-Mighty_Principality_of_Miragliano
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Post by: fellblade
Posted By Infantryman on 12/03/2006 9:13 PM
So I wonder what the Pistoliers are like now?
I got to spend an informative hour with my FLGS preview copy today. Pistoliers are still fast cav, 19pts, and can have musicians, and get an 'outrider' instead of a 'marksman'. They no longer have fusillade. They are no longer a good one-punch close combat unit, but still excellent flankers.
Outriders are fast cav, 21 pts, and can have musicians. They are armed with repeater handguns. The unit champ may take a repeater pistol, or a hochland Long Rifle, or a grenade blunderbuss (16" range, S6, move-or-fire). They can have barded horses, but stop being fast cav.
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Post by: fellblade
One nice thing- flagellants are rare choices, but for every warrior priest in your army, you can take one as core... so with Volkmar as your general, and warrior priests filling up the hero slots, that's 4 core flagellants and 2 rare flagellants, leaving only my special slots empty... maybe some cannons?
Yowza. The Unbreakable Army.
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Post by: fellblade
And they have continued the trend that started with the O&G army book, that is, no more of this 'takes up a Lord and a Rare slot' nonsense. Special characters take up lord/hero slots and that is it. And there are no '0-1' unit restrictions... if you want to fill all your special slots with Greatswords, you are free to do so... which means you can take 2 steam tanks as your rare choices. And another trend that I dislike- putting the beauty plates at the end of the book, rather than in the middle. It just makes the book that little bit more inconvenient to use, having to thumb back through all these pretty color pictures to find the summary page.
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Post by: Infantryman
How are they flankers? They've one, maybe two handweapons...
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Post by: fellblade
They are fast cav. That alone makes them flankers... you know, they get around the flanks of the enemy? Steal march moves, shoot things in the back, charge in on a flank to negate rank bonuses, that sort of thing. You wouldn't want to throw them into the front of a ranked unit, is what I'm basically saying. When they still had Fusillade, you might have considered doing so, especially against low T, low AS troops.
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Post by: Infantryman
Hm...well, true. I had forgotten hiting the flank dosn't allow rank bonuses to the enemy -- one of THOSE days.
I dont' like the outriders cus of their move/fire weapons -- seems counter-intuitive for cavalry...
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Post by: fellblade
I think they will be fun. Repeater Handguns = 3x multiple shots: 5 outriders = 15 shots. Stick that on a flank and let the enemy try to ignore you. Run it into the backfield and ruin the day of his warmachines. Or move in front of a unit, I'm-doing-the-classic-bait-and-flee-tactic, and when he charges, stand and shoot. Then give the evil laugh, Bwahahahaaa!
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Post by: Infantryman
I'm to thinking they'll be a tad expensive to throw away like that--21 pts each...
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Post by: Angron
Is Empire still able to take ogre allies as rare choices?
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Post by: fellblade
Just like in the new O&G army boook, there is no entry for Dogs of War in the Empire Army Book. I don't know if this means they are allowed or not. But I'd rather take Leadbelchers than a Volley Gun, now.
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Post by: Infantryman
I'm guessing they're gearing up to redo the DoW book -- with a list of who can take and who cannot take each unit for each entry. So whats so bad about the Helblaster? Dosn't seem too bad really... *has never used his before  *
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Post by: Toreador
By the way you can only ever have one core unit of flagellants. Flagellants are only T3 now. I am still not very sure how useful they are. Unbreakable is awesome though if you need to hold something up!
The Hellblaster isn't such a knee jerk weapon now. It doesn't automatically hit, so therefore isn't as useful against skirmishers and such... as it should be. It is still a great weapon, but not the must have it was.
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Post by: LtCraggs
*a wave from across the sea*
Hey Gang! It's LtCraggs... for those of you who remember me. First of all, if GW did come out with a new DOW book, totally AWESOME! As one of the... well... as far as I know, the only DOW player on the forum, it would be freaking nice if I could just play with one book, instead of about 10 or so different White Dwarfs. Hopefully, they'll drop the whole "generic" DOW aspect, and go back to the army of Regiment's of Reknown Also, Birdmen of Catrazza are a Regiment of Renoun, available to DOW armies as well as Empire armies. And they really suck. If you need some fliers, really bad, the Birdmen are some really bad fliers. Anyway, onto some quick questions and thoughts: It's good that they've lowered the price of the rank-and-file, but... how is an Orc with light armor, shield, and choppa cheaper than a human with light armor, sword, and shield? Also, what good is it to make Halberdiers cheaper, if they still... well... blow? (Did they improve what a Halberd does?) Okay, only 1 outridder can have a repeater pistol? Can the Pistolier Marksman still carry a Repeater? Multi-Musket is Move-or-Fire, is still a huge thing to make your opponent wonder about. It's on the equal of the Galloper Gun. The Galloper Gun is a glorified macrotechnic pop-gun... but who wants to get enfulade fire from a cannon. Move the Outridders to a flank, and now your opponent has to send something with some movement against the outridders. Else, they can play "can't-catch-me-I'm-the-Gingerbread-man-games." Did they improve the Long Rifle any? As it was in 6th, it just wasn't worth it. If it caused d3 wounds, then it would be something to consider. Else, you'd still need like a 4-pack of Long Rifles to even get them to give you 1 wound a turn. And, for those of you who still like the idea of a reniscience army, the DOW / Regiments of Renoun still have a lot of that feel. Lt Craggs
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Post by: Toreador
No direct comparisons of unit cost vs unit cost. It is how it works in the army overall. Empire also has a lot more nasty shooty and detachments. It just doesn't stand to a direct comparison.
I didn't explicitly look, but I think only the outrider champ can have a repeater pistol, along wth other options. Pistolier marksman's only option is the repeater pistol.
I agree about the outriders. With that range, and that firepower you just can't let them get into position or they will do damage.
Long rifle isn't improved, and I didn't look at the cost, but I always take a couple. I think they are well worth it. Great for bagging wizards, champions and heroes.
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Post by: Infantryman
I cannot believe this...GW has boned us again! The rather decient deal with one 20 man core and one 10 man detachment box for 45 is a LIMITED thing! GAH! What are they trying to prove, jacking up the price like this every time? Now we are stuck with 10 man boxes for 22? More expensive than the old set!! And I accually liked those new plastics too...
Pardon me while I strip ebay of all the Empire Soldiers/Spearmen I can find; helfury appears to have dissapeared again, leaving our deal severed I think.
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Post by: Toreador
The new box has a lot more stuff in it. Not a huge problem in my book. I would rather pay 22 for 10 than $44 for 20 and I like all the stuff in the kit. Easier to buy them as detachments and such. I will be using them to front out the regiments I already have of the old style.
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