no relic bearer for company masters? this is bs, im retiring my deathwing command squad for knights now, that was such a dumb move, the relic bearers apparently all dedicaded that the captains werent worth their time anymore.
it was hardly a broken combo, it was an upgrade nobody took beacsue fearless was everywhere or ld 8+ which made the relic bearer not very useful.
man now im going to need to move to deathwing knight now.. and their god awful.
To be honest, the "people wont play against unbound" is a bit pointless considering a lot of people wont even play against some bound armies these days. Maybe half of the players at my local store wont play against eldar at all
Has anyone noticed how awesome sammaels landspeeder is now?
Armour 14 with a 4++ or rerollable 3+ jink AND vector strike type shenanigans!
Has anyone noticed how awesome sammaels landspeeder is now?
Armour 14 with a 4++ or rerollable 3+ jink AND vector strike type shenanigans!
That's good since I already have the model (I actually don't have the jetbike Sammy ). Looking forward to using it for something other than fun and giggles.
Greenwing Command squads got a boost in that any can take from the speical weapons list.
Give them grav-guns with a Sacred Standard (relentless, counter-attack) to unlock the Salvo 3 max range.
Mix and match gear/transports/IC for some sick sick stuff:
Apothecary and/or SS for 3++ or Azreal for 2+/4++ tank
Slot in Lions Blade Detachment for full Ballistics on overwatch...that is a freaking nasty unit for counter charge.
Double up the Demi-companies for double the fun with free pods...(probably not feasible points wise)
Prescience librarian to twin link!?
DW Command squad Apoth went down to the cost of 1 MB, I didn't notice that before.
Brillow80 wrote: Greenwing Command squads got a boost in that any can take from the speical weapons list.
Give them grav-guns with a Sacred Standard (relentless, counter-attack) to unlock the Salvo 3 max range.
Mix and match gear/transports/IC for some sick sick stuff:
Apothecary and/or SS for 3++ or Azreal for 2+/4++ tank
Slot in Lions Blade Detachment for full Ballistics on overwatch...that is a freaking nasty unit for counter charge.
Double up the Demi-companies for double the fun with free pods...(probably not feasible points wise)
Prescience librarian to twin link!?
DW Command squad Apoth went down to the cost of 1 MB, I didn't notice that before.
I'm wondering why the veteran squad is still even a thing now.
The command squad is identical base and has way more options
Brillow80 wrote: Greenwing Command squads got a boost in that any can take from the speical weapons list.
Give them grav-guns with a Sacred Standard (relentless, counter-attack) to unlock the Salvo 3 max range.
Mix and match gear/transports/IC for some sick sick stuff:
Apothecary and/or SS for 3++ or Azreal for 2+/4++ tank
Slot in Lions Blade Detachment for full Ballistics on overwatch...that is a freaking nasty unit for counter charge.
Double up the Demi-companies for double the fun with free pods...(probably not feasible points wise)
Prescience librarian to twin link!?
DW Command squad Apoth went down to the cost of 1 MB, I didn't notice that before.
I'm wondering why the veteran squad is still even a thing now.
The command squad is identical base and has way more options
More bodies?
Also, not sure if this was covered but:
Vengeful Strike: A model with the Deathwing special rule that arrives by Deep Strike treats all of its ranged weapons as having the twin linked special rule until the end of the turn.
note: almost all the HQ's have the Deathwing special rule.
Holy crap!! Those vehicle formations are insane!!. Land raider and vindis , just fire them all as separate blasts, cast powers on the entire unit.....wow. I can see some crazy allied shenanigans with IG and engineseers. Once the first turn is done he can leave and join any other unit giving them monster and tank hunters.....jesus
Dark shroud formation solves so many of the issues with it, gives the entire unit a +3 cover save at all times while also giving it ablative wounds.....Jesus this is a resilient army
And interomancy is awesome, so many good powers. Great for any assault based army.
Even with the nerf to rad grenades the -1 ws and init is pretty nice. Still be running it on my cmd squad. White scars and ravenguard definitely fill different niches as a bike army. Can even run all black wing Knights if you want lol.
Quick question, so the RW and DW formations can be taken in addition to a CAD or different detachment by themselves or only part of the Lions Blade?
I'm pretty sure all can be taken in addition to a CAD, or standalone.
RW Attack/Support/Silence Squadrons and DW Redemption are formation detachments with the Dark Angels faction.
Deathwing/Ravenwing Strike Force(s) are detachments of those names (not formations)
Leth wrote: Holy crap!! Those vehicle formations are insane!!. Land raider and vindis , just fire them all as separate blasts, cast powers on the entire unit.....wow. I can see some crazy allied shenanigans with IG and engineseers. Once the first turn is done he can leave and join any other unit giving them monster and tank hunters.....jesus
Dark shroud formation solves so many of the issues with it, gives the entire unit a +3 cover save at all times while also giving it ablative wounds.....Jesus this is a resilient army
That was the idea, dark angels are,imo the most resilient space marines. It's part of their shtick. "Not one step back" and all that.
bullyboy wrote: yeah the command sqd is great with all grav guns and relentless. nathecium prices are odd though. 5pts for DW, 15pts for regular and 30pts fro RW.
I'd wager vets is due to "normal" marines, swap a bolt pistol (or nothing?) To get it.
DW you probably swap out the power fist...
RW you swap a bolt pistol, but because T5 you pay more...
Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
You could do that... but if you go first, your dreadnought isn't going to be still alive by the end of the turn?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.
Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: We all know the real reason is to sell models. If a SM army of 10 could take on an Ork or IG army of 100+, no one would buy Orks or IG (except for the occasional nutter like me).
If an in-game arguement is needed I always figured that 40k is not a 1:1 representation for most armies. IE 1 marine model=1 marine, but 1 IG/Ork/Nid model=10 or more actual troops.
To back this up, Guardsmen are even almost as tall as power armored marines on the tabletop.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.
Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.
Not the formation, the Strike Force. The strike force does not arrive as one.
Explain to me why people are upset that they can't run a "pure Deathwing" i.e. all terminator army? Nobody in their right mind did that! Sure, in the old codex you could come in on turn one, but you also had to have half your units on the table or you automatically lost. What, were people hiding single terminators in ruins? Dark Eldar have more durable armies than that!
Yes, it sucks that you instantly lose if you make the Deathwing formation your entire army. If only there was some way to take multiple detachments or formations in the same army...
The real problem is that GW's rules writing has apparently reached a new low. RW unable to take an HQ other than Sammael? Useless slots in formations and FOC's? I'm starting to wonder if the ability to take heavy weapons on every Eldar Windrider really was a typo, along with the Wraithknight's points cost. At least the issue is so glaring that GW might have to (gasp!) FAQ the problem away, like they did with an issue in the last Space Wolves codex.
With every new codex, things change. I had to adapt in more ways than one to how the new Eldar play. Same deal with people playing the new Necrons and the new Space Marines. Things changing in the new codex is to be expected. It's half the justification for buying the new codex in the first place! I don't speak for everyone, but I noticed that no one is clamoring for the old Dark Angel codex. Maybe that's some sort of indication...
Yes, formations are a massive cash grab on GW's part. No, they aren't massively unbalancing the game. None of the new formations released this year have been broken. Too powerful and nasty for casual play, sure. The main problem is that not all armies have the new formations, or don't bring the same level of power with them as other armies.
You have every right to not want to use or play against regular formations, and that's fine. But I and many others are thoroughly enjoying the power of the new formations, and fully intend to use them. I'll bet that we'll soon see plenty of Dark Angel players joining us soon now that their codex isn't bottom-tier anymore.
TL;DR: Stop being a Nurgling and rinse the nostalgia out of your eyes. Embrace the change, because it certainly hasn't been for the worse.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.
Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.
Not the formation, the Strike Force. The strike force does not arrive as one.
no, but the earliest it can arrive is Turn 2, even Drop pod dreads.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.
Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.
Not the formation, the Strike Force. The strike force does not arrive as one.
no, but the earliest it can arrive is Turn 2, even Drop pod dreads.
why? Nothing in the Strike Force says anything about ignoring Drop Pod Assault, which would put half the pods in on turn one. What you are saying is only true of the formation.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.
Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.
Not the formation, the Strike Force. The strike force does not arrive as one.
no, but the earliest it can arrive is Turn 2, even Drop pod dreads.
why? Nothing in the Strike Force says anything about ignoring Drop Pod Assault, which would put half the pods in on turn one. What you are saying is only true of the formation.
Deathwing Strike Force
Summoned to War
All units in the detachment must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. emphasis mine
doesn't matter if you have drop Pods, the rule indicates that all units must start in deep Strike Reserve. Not sure what makes you see that any differently.
TheNewBlood wrote: ...but you also had to have half your units on the table or you automatically lost.
This has never been a rule.
For the last couple of editions, you lost automatically if you had nothing on the table at the end of the turn.
And the reserves rules previously required you to deploy half of your army... but units that had to start in reserve didn't count for that.
You seem to be misremembering and merging those two rules.
I see, thank you. My memory of irrelevant rules apparently fades fast. I do know that you still lose at the end of the game turn and not the player turn in the current edition, which is why null deployment is a thing. It's a shame that Dark Angels can no longer pull it off with their elite units, but they do still have Drop Pods right?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.
Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.
Not the formation, the Strike Force. The strike force does not arrive as one.
no, but the earliest it can arrive is Turn 2, even Drop pod dreads.
why? Nothing in the Strike Force says anything about ignoring Drop Pod Assault, which would put half the pods in on turn one. What you are saying is only true of the formation.
Deathwing Strike Force
Summoned to War
All units in the detachment must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. emphasis mine
doesn't matter if you have drop Pods, the rule indicates that all units must start in deep Strike Reserve. Not sure what makes you see that any differently.
Drop pods ALWAYS start in Deep Strike Reserve. This changes nothing. They still gain the effect of Drop Pod Assault and half come in turn one.
wow, never realized that Drop Pods actually had Deep Strike Reserve rule, just thought half had to go in reserve.
This sort of mitigates the rule somewhat, but not if you go first and all the dreads/pods are destroyed by opponent on Turn 1.Not that difficult to do, especially since you'll probably only have 1 or 2 dreads actually arrive.
bullyboy wrote: wow, never realized that Drop Pods actually had Deep Strike Reserve rule, just thought half had to go in reserve.
This sort of mitigates the rule somewhat, but not if you go first and all the dreads/pods are destroyed by opponent on Turn 1.Not that difficult to do, especially since you'll probably only have 1 or 2 dreads actually arrive.
Each Dread and pod makes for a separate target. Drop in your own deployment done and get some cover. Possibly disembark behind the pods to stay out of LOS.
bullyboy wrote: wow, never realized that Drop Pods actually had Deep Strike Reserve rule, just thought half had to go in reserve.
This sort of mitigates the rule somewhat, but not if you go first and all the dreads/pods are destroyed by opponent on Turn 1.Not that difficult to do, especially since you'll probably only have 1 or 2 dreads actually arrive.
Each Dread and pod makes for a separate target. Drop in your own deployment done and get some cover. Possibly disembark behind the pods to stay out of LOS.
kind of sucks though, having to hide your dreads just so you don't auto lose.
Still think the RW/DW combo will be best option.
Brillow80 wrote: Greenwing Command squads got a boost in that any can take from the speical weapons list.
Give them grav-guns with a Sacred Standard (relentless, counter-attack) to unlock the Salvo 3 max range.
Mix and match gear/transports/IC for some sick sick stuff:
Apothecary and/or SS for 3++ or Azreal for 2+/4++ tank
Slot in Lions Blade Detachment for full Ballistics on overwatch...that is a freaking nasty unit for counter charge.
Double up the Demi-companies for double the fun with free pods...(probably not feasible points wise)
Prescience librarian to twin link!?
DW Command squad Apoth went down to the cost of 1 MB, I didn't notice that before.
Banner costs as much as bikes for the whole squad does in C:SM so while you can embark in a transport with this setup I think its slightly worse than a C:SM command squad on bikes.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?
because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.
Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.
Not the formation, the Strike Force. The strike force does not arrive as one.
no, but the earliest it can arrive is Turn 2, even Drop pod dreads.
why? Nothing in the Strike Force says anything about ignoring Drop Pod Assault, which would put half the pods in on turn one. What you are saying is only true of the formation.
Deathwing Strike Force
Summoned to War
All units in the detachment must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. emphasis mine
doesn't matter if you have drop Pods, the rule indicates that all units must start in deep Strike Reserve. Not sure what makes you see that any differently.
Drop pods ALWAYS start in Deep Strike Reserve. This changes nothing. They still gain the effect of Drop Pod Assault and half come in turn one.
That's how I read it. Sure it can't be PURE Terminators without losing, but you probably weren't doing that anyway. The army itself is at least MUCH more, well, less terrible.
Whilst I am sympathetic to those who want to play nothing but DW terminator squads and now can only do so via Unbound, I think overall DW got better - as long as you use them in concert with other formations.
Basic DW squads got cheaper, they can run and shoot when they deep strike so they don't get murdered by plasma blasts, they don't scatter at all if they DS within 12" of that Ravenwing formation, and DWKs got ap3 so their maces are less inflatable.
Plus with the ridonk durability of that RW formation, it's pretty easy to plonk a couple of bike squads on the table, turbo-boost them into the enemy's face, laugh when they try to shoot the bikes, then have fun with a bunch of pinpoint accuracy deep strikes full of twin-linked terminator death.
Dr. Delorean wrote: Whilst I am sympathetic to those who want to play nothing but DW terminator squads and now can only do so via Unbound, I think overall DW got better - as long as you use them in concert with other formations.
Basic DW squads got cheaper, they can run and shoot when they deep strike so they don't get murdered by plasma blasts, they don't scatter at all if they DS within 12" of that Ravenwing formation, and DWKs got ap3 so their maces are less inflatable.
Plus with the ridonk durability of that RW formation, it's pretty easy to plonk a couple of bike squads on the table, turbo-boost them into the enemy's face, laugh when they try to shoot the bikes, then have fun with a bunch of pinpoint accuracy deep strikes full of twin-linked terminator death.
Exactly. Deathwing and Ravenwing are meant to work together. Can't really fault GW for making the Dark Angels more in keeping with their background. Who DOESN'T want a load of T5 Astartes in their army?!
So what are DA power build going to now? I see 3 possible ones:
1) Strongest combo. That is a no brainer, there are so many interactions now between the 2 detachments that is almost silly. This is most assuredly our first power build.
2) White scars alike list. We now have grav on bikes, so we can try to make a biker list really similar with a few key differences:
a) Our bikes cost a bit more
b) Our bikes have no skilled rider or +1HoW.
c) We got black knights
d) We reroll jink.
e) Sammy Tax costs 50 more but is better than Khan tax.
f) Darkshrouds are gold with rerollable 2+ jink.
g) All our bikes are teleport homers.
h) We overwatch at BS2.
All considered the full RW build is doable and is a balanced alternative to a WS build.
3) Lion's blade. This is a parking lot list, similar to the SM one. Key differences are no tactical doctrines, full BS overwatch and poddable grav command squads (with counterattack and full BS on grav overwatch). If assault keeps increasing in importance, this again will become a balanced alternative to SM full companies.
So, deathwing only get twin linked if they are in the detachment, and ravenwing only get their bonuses in the detachment?
so if you want to take a cad, all your stuff you used to have got nerfed in the deathwing department, and are the same in the ravenwing one.
So dual wing is the way to go?
Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.
That, and marines can take pod gravs too... Though I suppose the dark Angels one will get 5 extra shots, while the marine one will reroll ones.
Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.
That's my opinion too. Will be interesting to see after SW, Orks, Demons, CSM, DE and Tyranids has been redone what will be the new situation on assault armies. After all we are starting to see some interesting effects around, like ignore overwatch (which would be bad...).
Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.
Spoletta wrote: Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.
Make them Typhoons - it'll cost more, but that way you get MLs for Interceptor on your opponents turn, then you can use the Heavy Bolters on your own.
Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.
That's my opinion too. Will be interesting to see after SW, Orks, Demons, CSM, DE and Tyranids has been redone what will be the new situation on assault armies. After all we are starting to see some interesting effects around, like ignore overwatch (which would be bad...).
Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.
No grim resolve so no over watch at full BS. STill its a quite nifty formation
Squared it away with our local group and we've allowed rw to have other characters and given the rw rule, we also allowed bob and other terminator characters to unlock dw as troops, house-rule edition strikes again, and since I run the tournaments were going to test it in the upcoming one, if it is op we will just keep it as the book states.
Not a rumour but I suggest others talk to their groups and see what they are happy with.
Formosa wrote: Squared it away with our local group and we've allowed rw to have other characters and given the rw rule, we also allowed bob and other terminator characters to unlock dw as troops, house-rule edition strikes again, and since I run the tournaments were going to test it in the upcoming one, if it is op we will just keep it as the book states.
Not a rumour but I suggest others talk to their groups and see what they are happy with.
I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.
Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.
CAD played with unlocks will be in line with pre necron codices. RW + DW will be in line with post necron stuff.
Spoletta wrote: I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.
Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.
Seems to me that might be an easy house rule to implement (and maybe GW might even FAQ it this way) - Characters equipped with a bike must replace the Deathwing special rule with the Ravenwing special rule.
Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.
That's my opinion too. Will be interesting to see after SW, Orks, Demons, CSM, DE and Tyranids has been redone what will be the new situation on assault armies. After all we are starting to see some interesting effects around, like ignore overwatch (which would be bad...).
Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.
No grim resolve so no over watch at full BS. STill its a quite nifty formation
Spoletta wrote: I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.
Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.
Seems to me that might be an easy house rule to implement (and maybe GW might even FAQ it this way) - Characters equipped with a bike must replace the Deathwing special rule with the Ravenwing special rule.
I missed that but bloody good points, I could be a gw writer with my level of English!
Spoletta wrote: I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.
Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.
Seems to me that might be an easy house rule to implement (and maybe GW might even FAQ it this way) - Characters equipped with a bike must replace the Deathwing special rule with the Ravenwing special rule.
And why exectly should they lose Deathwing rule? Interrogator-Chaplains and Librarainas are all in Inner Circle anyway.
Cause the codex is built around the concept that a model is either one or the other. The fact that there are models which are both could easily break some rules. Also, you are giving out for free: fearless, hatred (csm), deepstrike and a nice lot of synergies.
Not to mention that i would immediately exploit it by deepstriking a bike guy together with the termie, so i could put him in front and jink away all incoming hits. Yes i can do it anyway once they are on land, but at least let's make it a bit difficult no?
I mean it would remove their counter in the form of Iontides. Oh too bad, all the S8Ap2 you scored on my clumped intercepted termies were jinked away, and the ones that passed were on a T5 model. Your marker drones and pathfinders should really learn to intercept next time.
Feerless and Hatred should remain, look ant Sammael, I agree with deepstriking part, but to deepstrike they should have terminator armour also, so I don't see a big issue.
After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.
To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.
Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.
Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.
Commissar Merces wrote: After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.
To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.
Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.
In the world of 3 detachments I see raven wing detachment with the 3 speeder plus darkshroud formation and either a space marine detachment or death wing assault.
The bikes all scout and turbo boost turn one with jink and full bs shooting for the turn.
The darkshroud unit scouts and stays within 6in of the unit for stealth (2+ reroll jink) and immunity to overwatch for any unit within 6in and then insane combined overwatch at bs2, 24in range and interceptor with ML spam.
Bikes are set for a turn 2 charge and deliver scatter less death wing assault that can move and fire and has a shield wall for t5 marines. Everything with bs2-3 or full bs for overwatch.
tydrace wrote: Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.
Look again - Your scout formation is even better since you don't have to bring 3 units. It's called the 10th Company Support formation and contains 1-5 Scout units. And you can bring that as often as you want.
Easiest way out, point wise, is allying in inquisition.
But i'd really suggest to just include one RW attack formation, more survivable and definitely more useful. 95 points and you get 2 12" teleport homers with rerollable jink.
tydrace wrote: Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.
Look again - Your scout formation is even better since you don't have to bring 3 units. It's called the 10th Company Support formation and contains 1-5 Scout units. And you can bring that as often as you want.
I did, but we have no scout formation. We can take scouts as 10th Company Support in a Lion's Blade, but then you need a Demi-Company. I'm looking for a way to use scouts along with just a Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force. (Best option I'm seeing so far is allying in some Raven Guard scouts, sure you need three squads but they do get Shrouded on Turn 1, which can mean survival).
Commissar Merces wrote: After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.
To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.
Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.
In the world of 3 detachments I see raven wing detachment with the 3 speeder plus darkshroud formation and either a space marine detachment or death wing assault.
The bikes all scout and turbo boost turn one with jink and full bs shooting for the turn.
The darkshroud unit scouts and stays within 6in of the unit for stealth (2+ reroll jink) and immunity to overwatch for any unit within 6in and then insane combined overwatch at bs2, 24in range and interceptor with ML spam.
Bikes are set for a turn 2 charge and deliver scatter less death wing assault that can move and fire and has a shield wall for t5 marines. Everything with bs2-3 or full bs for overwatch.
Where are you getting the 2+ from? Ravenwing bikes are not skilled riders so have a 4+ standard and the dark shroud only gives stealth if I am not mistaken.
Skyhammer formation can be taken on its own correct? You wouldn't need three detachments, just two.
tydrace wrote: Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.
Look again - Your scout formation is even better since you don't have to bring 3 units. It's called the 10th Company Support formation and contains 1-5 Scout units. And you can bring that as often as you want.
I did, but we have no scout formation. We can take scouts as 10th Company Support in a Lion's Blade, but then you need a Demi-Company. I'm looking for a way to use scouts along with just a Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force. (Best option I'm seeing so far is allying in some Raven Guard scouts, sure you need three squads but they do get Shrouded on Turn 1, which can mean survival).
All formations are also detachments. You can use any detachment on it's own - therefore you can use the 10th Company Support formation on it's own, too.
"3x 10th Company Support" or "15 Scout units" is a battleforged army.
*edit* this helped me understand the differences a great deal:
Thairne wrote: Then why do Core, Auxillary etc. exist at all?
After all, Aux are restricted until you take at least 1 core...
Now you're talking about the Lion's Blade Strike Force detachment which has special restrictions and rules. If you want to bring a LBSF, you have to adhere to those rules - if you don't want to bring a LBSF, you can do whatever you want with your formations.
*edit* The LBSF is simply a faction specific detachment when you look at the chart I provided.
*edit2* So, just to give some examples:
1 Ravenwing Strike Force
1 Lions Blade Strike Force consisting of a Demi-Company and a 10th Company Support Formation
-> Battleforged
2 Ravenwing Strike Forces
-> Battleforged
1 Ravenwing Strike Force
1 Deathwing Strike Force
1 Lion's Blade Strike Force consisting of a Demi-Company and a 10th Company Support formation
-> Battleforged
2 Lions Blade Strike Forces consisting of 2 Demi-Companies EACH and 20 10th Company Support Formations EACH
-> Battleforged
50 10th Company Support Formations
-> Battleforged
49 10th Company Support Formations and a CAD of 1 Captain, 2 Tac Marine Squads
-> Battleforged
A single 10th Company Support formation
-> Battleforged!
Just remember that - unless stated otherwise in the detachments - they do NOT share their bonuses. That's why Gladius / Decurion / Lion's Blade are so important - a unit that is part of a Demi-Company which in turn is part of a Gladius Strike force gets BOTH the advantages from the Demi AND the Gladius.
If you just use a Demi-Company on it's own, you don't get the Gladius bonuses.
A 10th Company Support formation can NEVER gain the bonuses from a Demi-Company, since there's no rule that would allow the 10th to be part of the Demi-Company.
Yep, you're right. Actually reading the page talking about the LBSF clears that up.
Which means I have to include these things in the formations in BS, lesson learned!
tydrace wrote: Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.
Look again - Your scout formation is even better since you don't have to bring 3 units. It's called the 10th Company Support formation and contains 1-5 Scout units. And you can bring that as often as you want.
I did, but we have no scout formation. We can take scouts as 10th Company Support in a Lion's Blade, but then you need a Demi-Company. I'm looking for a way to use scouts along with just a Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force. (Best option I'm seeing so far is allying in some Raven Guard scouts, sure you need three squads but they do get Shrouded on Turn 1, which can mean survival).
All formations are also detachments. You can use any detachment on it's own - therefore you can use the 10th Company Support formation on it's own, too. "3x 10th Company Support" or "15 Scout units" is a battleforged army.
*edit* this helped me understand the differences a great deal:
Spoiler:
That flowchart of yours is a bit outdated, and you're a bit confused about formations still, I'm afraid.
The Decurion-style detachments (which someone ought to find a better name for, btw) are a special kind of detachment that consists of Core, Command and Auxiliary choices. Some of these choices are formations, with their own formation dataslates, and can be used independently in any Battle Forged army, but others are simply units as in any other detachment. The Dark Angels Scouts (10th Company Support) are the latter. The Space Marine Scouts (10th Company Task Force) are the former.
It's possible to take a Ravenwing Detachment, a flyer formation, and some Dark Angels Scouts, but then your army would be Unbound.
Rule of the thumb; all Formations have their own dataslate with the formation symbol in the top corners of the page.
Just to confirm- there's no more DA stuff in WDW #74. That's it. There's a battle report but the rest is WD rubbing one out over the 20+ years of WHFBlol.
^Though having CCAD and CAD both being terms and meaning different things could be potentially very confusing.
Not to stop anyone, just something to think about.
That flowchart of yours is a bit outdated, and you're a bit confused about formations still, I'm afraid.
The Decurion-style detachments (which someone ought to find a better name for, btw) are a special kind of detachment that consists of Core, Command and Auxiliary choices. Some of these choices are formations, with their own formation dataslates, and can be used independently in any Battle Forged army, but others are simply units as in any other detachment. The Dark Angels Scouts (10th Company Support) are the latter. The Space Marine Scouts (10th Company Task Force) are the former.
It's possible to take a Ravenwing Detachment, a flyer formation, and some Dark Angels Scouts, but then your army would be Unbound.
Rule of the thumb; all Formations have their own dataslate with the formation symbol in the top corners of the page.
For some reason I couldn't find an actual scan of the 10th Company in C: DA, but here is the Ravenwing Attack and Support Squadrons which I suppose work the same.
Spoiler:
It says "Formation", it's restrictions do not prevent you from using the formation as a solo detachment. Granted, the page for the 10th Company COULD be different, but that would surprise me.
*edit*
Going through my Necron codex, I now see where you're coming from - The Decurion has both "named Formations of multiple units" AND single instances of a simple unit - and the later aren't formations. So the question now is rather whether or not the 10th Company Support is a named formation or JUST refering to "1-5 units".
Further looking at the LBFS construction page i just noticed that the 10th is the ONLY choice that doesn't have a page number referenced.
Spoiler:
I guess that means you're absolutely right since the 10th Company Support simply is NOT a formation and therefore also is NOT a detachment.
Further looking at the LBFS construction page i just noticed that the 10th is the ONLY choice that doesn't have a page number referenced.
Spoiler:
I guess that means you're absolutely right since the 10th Company Support simply is NOT a formation and therefore also is NOT a detachment.
This is a new situation. The 10th Company Support formation exists only within that Lion's Blade chart. (Another example of this codex being sloppy.) So I guess it can only be taken within a Lion's Blade?
Further looking at the LBFS construction page i just noticed that the 10th is the ONLY choice that doesn't have a page number referenced.
Spoiler:
I guess that means you're absolutely right since the 10th Company Support simply is NOT a formation and therefore also is NOT a detachment.
This is a new situation. The 10th Company Support formation exists only within that Lion's Blade chart. (Another example of this codex being sloppy.) So I guess it can only be taken within a Lion's Blade?
Further looking at the LBFS construction page i just noticed that the 10th is the ONLY choice that doesn't have a page number referenced.
Spoiler:
I guess that means you're absolutely right since the 10th Company Support simply is NOT a formation and therefore also is NOT a detachment.
This is a new situation. The 10th Company Support formation exists only within that Lion's Blade chart. (Another example of this codex being sloppy.) So I guess it can only be taken within a Lion's Blade?
That's how I interpreted it.
It has no dataslate and no advantages aside from being able to take scouts with you - it's just a "choice" for the LBFS detachment and not a formation at all. The Decurion does the same thing, just more clearly - it names the choice "Flayed Ones", and lists it as being "1 unit of Flayed Ones", but "Flayed Ones" still is not a formation at all.
You can take the scout formation in any army, even without the Lion's Blade. The rules flat out say you can. It just doesn't have any special rules attached to it the way the other formations do.
CrashGordon94 wrote: ^Though having CCAD and CAD both being terms and meaning different things could be potentially very confused.
Not to stop anyone, just something to think about.
I still like Multiple Formation Detachment. MFD is pretty unique as far as namings are concerned.
I dislike when people still try to call them "Decurion-style formations" which becomes less and less poignant as more come out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
casvalremdeikun wrote: You can take the scout formation in any army, even without the Lion's Blade. The rules flat out say you can. It just doesn't have any special rules attached to it the way the other formations do.
No, you cannot. It's not a Dataslate Formation, it's just an option.
Commissar Merces wrote: After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.
To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.
Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.
Ravenwing improved. Everything else, meh. Ravenwing + Bike Conclave is tier 1 and will roll anything Tau or Eldar can field. Lion's Blade isn't as good as gladius, but free obsec transports are still free obsec transports.
GW still fails at rule writing. If they can produce a near flawless Space Marine Codex, why is Dark Angels such a mess?
riburn3 wrote:Am I the only one that doesn't really care about the loss of ObjSec for RW/DW? I feel the new special rules in all the formations/detatchments are a good trade off and this army now has far more flexibility than it ever had. Granted, I've never run pure DW or RW force to begin with and like their synergy together, but I still don't really think it's a big deal.
It's not really an issue of Objective Secured. It's more that people built their armies around just shifting things to Troops and leaving everything else the same, and the DW/RW formations aren't the same thing.
Just for an example, you could've had Belial in charge, 4+ DW Termies as Troops, a bunch of Company Veteran Squads as Elites, Assault Marines as Fast Attack and Predators or something in Heavy Support.
An army like that is boned, you can't just shove all that into the Deathwing Formation and you can't build it as an ordinary CAD. See the problem?
jakejackjake wrote:They took away the option to take whatever you want that is unbound? The only downside is his terminators don't have objective secured but terminators suck anyway which means if you were playing a mostly terminator army you were losing. So you can take them and continue to lose if that's what you want.
No, the seemingly universally-despised and mostly used for cheating option of Unbound remains.
They took away the option of just playing a CAD with Termies/Bikers in Troops for no reason and now people are potentially screwed out of their armies unless they buy a bunch of stuff they don't want, throw a load of things away or take a non-option that their opponent would reject and puts their formerly-legit (and no longer legit for no reason) army on the level of a list with nothing but Baneblades.
All of which could've been avoided by keeping the FOC-switch options AND the new Formations, and what would be wrong with that?
How is it cheating?
It's not. Especially if you use it to make an army that sucks. Like Deathwing has for years.
Also if you reject playing an army because it is unbound your a little baby. I've never played unbound myself because it hasn't been necessary, but it's allowed and anyone who calls it cheating is a cry baby who gets upset when someone outplays them.
Don't get mad at GW for trying to make you stop playing bad units and then complaining that they are bad
"OH NO I HAVE TO MAKE A NEW LIST WITH NON TERMINATORS" You're playing 40k. No one has "built" an army. They are all"building" armies. They just got confused and thought at some point it would be "complete", but it never will
Deathwing redemption force. Then bring other formatins. If you want ever edition to play like the last then why update them at all? People are just whining because they didn't get the changes EXACTLY how they wanted them. Even though this codex is in the top three now if the leaks hold 100
it's the same in the Eldar dex too. You cannot just bring 5 wraithknights to a battle and be Battle Forged (they have their own entry in the Craftworld Warhost detachment). These units are only unlocked if you take the base formation. The data slate formations at the end of the unit entries are the only formations that can be brought separately. The Eldar ones that cannot be used by themselves includes Outcasts (which would be identical to this scout debate), Engines of Vaul, and Wraith Constructs (where wraithknights are an entry) If you want to run the scouts, you either have to take the Lion's Blade and add them as an auxiliary or take a CAD with a character (put him in term armour) and take 2-6 units of Scouts.
casvalremdeikun wrote: You can take the scout formation in any army, even without the Lion's Blade. The rules flat out say you can. It just doesn't have any special rules attached to it the way the other formations do.
Unless it has a Formation datasheet, its not a Formation and just a unit.
Commissar Merces wrote: After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.
To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.
Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.
This army will be better than Tau, but yes they will do better than most. The only two that are totally equal or REALLY close I believe to be Eldar and Vanilla. I can't believe Dark Angels are just about to become baby spankers and people are upset
Also as far as the terminators go. No one will care if you play a deathwing army unbound. They might just get bored winning against you so easily but if it's what you want they'll let you
Commissar Merces wrote: After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.
To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.
Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.
Ravenwing improved. Everything else, meh. Ravenwing + Bike Conclave is tier 1 and will roll anything Tau or Eldar can field. Lion's Blade isn't as good as gladius, but free obsec transports are still free obsec transports.
GW still fails at rule writing. If they can produce a near flawless Space Marine Codex, why is Dark Angels such a mess?
Bike conclave? Can you explain what this is? Do you mean the librarian formation? Is that still legal?
Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.
tydrace wrote: Well I was in the train going home expecting to discuss the Scout thingy further but it seems we've already reached a conclusion to that.
Do the Land Speeders in a Ravenwing Support Force gain the Shrouded from the Darkshroud as well? That would be great.
Yes, and Stealth too.
Only one model in a unit needs either rule to provide the whole unit with it.
Wait what?
So every Speeder in that formation has a BASE coversave of 4+ due to Shrouded from the DS for the unit and Stealth from the DS provided in the bubble?
JuniorRS13 wrote:If you wanted scouts though, you could take a CAD along with the formations you want.
...As long as you have an HQ.
On plus side if you do and can make this bonus CAD you'll have the option to stick in a bunch of extra stuff too! Like 0-4 Tactical Marines (depending on how many Scouts are desired), Company Veterans, Tanks of all flavors, Assault Marines, Devastators... Potentially even additional Bikes/Termies!
Requizen wrote:I still like Multiple Formation Detachment. MFD is pretty unique as far as namings are concerned.
Yeah, that's a really good name for it, hope it catches on.
jakejackjake wrote:How is it cheating?
It's not. Especially if you use it to make an army that sucks. Like Deathwing has for years.
Also if you reject playing an army because it is unbound your a little baby. I've never played unbound myself because it hasn't been necessary, but it's allowed and anyone who calls it cheating is a cry baby who gets upset when someone outplays them.
Don't get mad at GW for trying to make you stop playing bad units and then complaining that they are bad
"OH NO I HAVE TO MAKE A NEW LIST WITH NON TERMINATORS" You're playing 40k. No one has "built" an army. They are all"building" armies. They just got confused and thought at some point it would be "complete", but it never will
Deathwing redemption force. Then bring other formatins. If you want ever edition to play like the last then why update them at all? People are just whining because they didn't get the changes EXACTLY how they wanted them. Even though this codex is in the top three now if the leaks hold 100
It's cheating in their eyes because it's Unbound, when people have issues with Unbound as most (i.e. almost everyone) seem to then it's not a matter of "under these circumstances", just "Unbound is bad and not allowed".
If I tried this I would be rejected the same as Mr. All Baneblades because they're both Unbound and they see Unbound as cheating nonsense. There's no split of "cheating Unbound" and "perfectly okay Unbound" just like there's no "cheating CAD" and "perfectly okay CAD", it's a matter of the option being okay or not completely and they say it's not.
It's not an option because it's not really an option unless my army actually gets accepted rather than me getting my teeth knocked out and my models broken (or whatever it is these people do to Unbound players).
And besides even if it was a real option (which it isn't), it's not really valid. It's no more of an army list than what Mr. All Baneblades does because it's not following the mandatory rules of building an army whether those rules never existed (like for Mr. All Baneblades) or were destroyed/taken away (like me, the other Dangle players and anyone else who lost options or had their armies invalidated) so it would be utterly hollow and meaningless. It might as well just be homebrew like /tg/'s Angry Marines for as "real" as it is...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commissar Merces wrote: Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.
Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?
Wait what?
So every Speeder in that formation has a BASE coversave of 4+ due to Shrouded from the DS for the unit and Stealth from the DS provided in the bubble?
Do the Land Speeders in a Ravenwing Support Force gain the Shrouded from the Darkshroud as well? That would be great.
Yes, and Stealth too.
Only one model in a unit needs either rule to provide the whole unit with it.
Wait what?
So every Speeder in that formation has a BASE coversave of 4+ due to Shrouded from the DS for the unit and Stealth from the DS provided in the bubble?
no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
Commissar Merces wrote: Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.
Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?
RAW, it only works against Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. Dark Angels and regular marines had their codexes names changed, so aren't technically listed in in the Firebase Support Caste.
Also, anyone who thinks Tau constantly ignore cover hasn't played many competitive games against them in practice. In reality, they don't get many Ignore Cover shots off in a game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.
Commissar Merces wrote: Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.
Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?
RAW, it only works against Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. Dark Angels and regular marines had their codexes names changed, so aren't technically listed in in the Firebase Support Caste.
I don't think that's correct. It's Codex: Space Marines still. Just as Codex: Eldar changed to Codex:Â Craftworld.
no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.
no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.
no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.
It also has the special rule Support Squadron, which states it becomes a single Vehicle Squadron.
no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.
the rules state that all vehicles form a singular squadron (under support formation).
as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.
as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.
That's how all things work. Do you think the Avatar doesn't give himself Furious Charge or Ezekiel doesn't give himself +1 attack?
no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is a Formation consisting of two separate units, a unit of Land Speeders and either a Land Speeder Vengeance or a Darkshroud. There is no way to add assitional models to the Darkshroud's 'unit'.
Doesn't the formation make them one unit?
Spoiler:
Sorry, didn't see that on my crappy monitor and I believe other formations that make multiple units into one unit have it listed under 'Restrictions' (could be wrong... again )
Looking this over, it sounds like Azrael can't go in the Deathwing formation like that other guy said...
Would have to look for another Termie HQ, not sure if I'd go for a Belial proxy (one of the models I got in Shield of Baal which somebody said would fit the bill) or a Librarian.
Also for Hammer of Caliban would that mean that it's 3 Vindicators and a Land Raider in a squad together?
as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.
That's how all things work. Do you think the Avatar doesn't give himself Furious Charge or Ezekiel doesn't give himself +1 attack?
The Darkshroud specifically states the Darkshroud doesn't benefit from it, though. However, it does say all Dark Angels Units gain the Fear and Stealth special rule. So the squadron gains Fear and Stealth except for the Darkshroud?
Looking this over, it sounds like Azrael can't go in the Deathwing formation like that other guy said...
Would have to look for another Termie HQ, not sure if I'd go for a Belial proxy (one of the models I got in Shield of Baal which somebody said would fit the bill) or a Librarian.
I'm using my Belial as Chapter Master with terminator armour and a relic blade. Way cheaper.
Also for Hammer of Caliban would that mean that it's 3 Vindicators and a Land Raider in a squad together?
Yeah. That restriction is rough. Maybe three lascannon predators without sponsons would be good together, but their engagement ranges wouldn't line up with a Land Raider charging its contents forward. Vindicators synergize nicely but a unit of three vindicators may not be worth it.
Ghaz wrote: Sorry, didn't see that on my crappy monitor and I believe other formations that make multiple units into one unit have it listed under 'Restrictions' (could be wrong... again )
If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam
I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?
The Darkshroud specifically states the Darkshroud doesn't benefit from it, though. However, it does say all Dark Angels Units gain the Fear and Stealth special rule. So the squadron gains Fear and Stealth except for the Darkshroud?
That's correct, but a unit only needs one model to have Stealth for the entire unit to benefit from it. So, like I said, the unit will have Stealth and Shrouded until it's reduced to only the Darkshroud left, then it only has Shrouded.
jakejackjake wrote: If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam
I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?
What if someone comes with an all-Riptide army? Or just Wraithknights or whatever those things are called. What if he comes with just Flyrants?
And before you start with "I can take this and this before hand, think of it as a pickup game. You won't know this will come.
jakejackjake wrote: If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam
I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?
What if someone comes with an all-Riptide army? Or just Wraithknights or whatever those things are called. What if he comes with just Flyrants?
And before you start with "I can take this and this before hand, think of it as a pickup game. You won't know this will come.
Then you laugh and crush all these tier 2 armies with your 2+ rerollable jink Black Knights + Darkshroud.
Huh. The Ravenwing Command Squad lost the ability to carry the Chapter Banner (For that lovely +1 attack.)
A minor change but I also noticed all the Standards lost the stacking +1 to combat resolution, as did the Darkshroud. Sad face :( I liked forcing Daemonic Instability test on drawn combats with Daemons...
Everything about this post is wrong. Farsighted bombs with target locks and buff commander all have ignores cover. Marker lights ignore cover and can get other units ignore cover if enough hits are made. Skyrays (which are not poor units) have ignore cover.
And yes, the tau formation of broadsides + riptide do have preferred enemy space marines of any flavor.
Back on topic, so is the dark shroud actually part of the bike unit in that formation or are they two unique units that operate separately from each other?
Commissar Merces wrote: Reason why tau will trump RW is so many things ignore cover and the amount of interceptor is nasty if you wanna pair with deathwing. Not to mention their own formation that gives them preferred enemy space marines.
Does that actually count against Dark Angels, or just Codex:Space Marines units?
RAW, it only works against Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. Dark Angels and regular marines had their codexes names changed, so aren't technically listed in in the Firebase Support Caste.
Also, anyone who thinks Tau constantly ignore cover hasn't played many competitive games against them in practice. In reality, they don't get many Ignore Cover shots off in a game.
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no, the unit only gets shrouded, not stealth. The darkshroud gives "units" within 6" of it Stealth, not models. Therefore it's own unit only gets shrouded. This is still pretty sweet though, basically a 2+ jink (rerollable) and 5+ cover save in open.
The Ravenwing Support Squadron is itself a unit within 6" of the Darkshroud. The Darkshroud cannot give itself Stealth, but it gives any model in its unit Stealth, by necessarily being within 6" of other models in its own unit. If the unit is reduced to just the Darkshroud, it will no longer have Stealth.
jakejackjake wrote: If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam
I hate change too guys but no need to be babies about it ya know?
What if someone comes with an all-Riptide army? Or just Wraithknights or whatever those things are called. What if he comes with just Flyrants?
And before you start with "I can take this and this before hand, think of it as a pickup game. You won't know this will come.
Stop that. People need to realize that there's a difference between bringing a regular Unbound list and being a turdmuffin with 5-6 Wraithknights.
There's nothing wrong with turning down a game against the latter. I wouldn't play a game against it because it would be unfun and no one should reasonably be asked to play against that list.
I wouldn't turn down a game against someone who runs unbound because they don't want to use Troops and there's no other detachment that works for them. Or someone who wants to bring 4 Heavy Support options but doesn't have enough for another CAD. Those are fine.
If you can't tell the difference (or refuse to), then that's your own failing and not one of the system.
Look, Deathwing players. Deepstriking on turn one wouldn't have saved your army. It would still be rubbish. The only thing that could have saved Deathwing competitively was a
vicious points cut and the ability to assault from deep strike, which I'm disappointed they didn't get.
Think about it this way; Deathwing don't orbital drop. Deathwing don't walk. Deathwing don't even ride. Deathwing only ever teleport assault, and they're the best at it.
They have battle focus in Terminator armour, dammit. They're the ultimate Prima Donnas of one of the most special-flower Prima Donna l̶e̶g̶i̶o̶n̶ Chapters in the Imperium.
They eschew all other modes of transportation for lesser mortals. They don't get out of the Battle Barge in the morning unless there are actually heretics to smite. It's fluffy and fits most descriptions of how the Deathwing operate (teleporting en masse).
The easiest way to ensure this? Have an assassin on the board, hiding out of sight in some heavy cover. 140 points and your precious army is playable again.
Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!
I don't like how the Tactical Objectives force you to A: Have a Librarian B: Have both Ravenwing and Deathwing to score points. What the actual? Also, the first objective is always 3+d3 if you have enough turns and play Deathwing...
jakejackjake wrote:If you won't play against an unbound list or any list the ONLY reason is fear of losing. Which makes you pathetic. That's like if I said "I won't play against the Ravenwing Detachment" because it is cheating. There is literally no difference. Both lose Obsec and both allow for spam
Not just fear of losing, many consider it illegitimate and cheating because it's not an actual detachment/formation/whatever, whereas it's impossible to spin the fancy-pants formations that way.
Requizen wrote:Stop that. People need to realize that there's a difference between bringing a regular Unbound list and being a turdmuffin with 5-6 Wraithknights.
There's nothing wrong with turning down a game against the latter. I wouldn't play a game against it because it would be unfun and no one should reasonably be asked to play against that list.
I wouldn't turn down a game against someone who runs unbound because they don't want to use Troops and there's no other detachment that works for them. Or someone who wants to bring 4 Heavy Support options but doesn't have enough for another CAD. Those are fine.
If you can't tell the difference (or refuse to), then that's your own failing and not one of the system.
They don't see a difference because both are Unbound. As mentioned it's an issue of "Do we allow this way of making armies or not?" rather than specific stuff. Dude with no Troops and dude with lots of Wraithknights aren't really doing anything different much like how an Imperial Guard CAD and a Ultramarine CAD aren't doing anything different.
With all that said, let's stop pretending that Unbound is an option so we don't sucker unsuspecting newbies into having their teeth and models broken (or whatever it is that people do to Unbound players), shall we?
Requizen wrote:Stop that. People need to realize that there's a difference between bringing a regular Unbound list and being a turdmuffin with 5-6 Wraithknights.
There's nothing wrong with turning down a game against the latter. I wouldn't play a game against it because it would be unfun and no one should reasonably be asked to play against that list.
I wouldn't turn down a game against someone who runs unbound because they don't want to use Troops and there's no other detachment that works for them. Or someone who wants to bring 4 Heavy Support options but doesn't have enough for another CAD. Those are fine.
If you can't tell the difference (or refuse to), then that's your own failing and not one of the system.
They don't see a difference because both are Unbound. As mentioned it's an issue of "Do we allow this way of making armies or not?" rather than specific stuff. Dude with no Troops and dude with lots of Wraithknights aren't really doing anything different much like how an Imperial Guard CAD and a Ultramarine CAD aren't doing anything different.
With all that said, let's stop pretending that Unbound is an option so we don't sucker unsuspecting newbies into having their teeth and models broken (or whatever it is that people do to Unbound players), shall we?
Wow, you have serious problems. Unbound is no issue as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand. End of story. You can accept or deny to play any game that you come across, but that doesn't mean the thing you don't like should be removed from the game.
In a tournament setting, they limit it because they need to have things in place to make a competitive environment. Short of having a TO go through every Unbound list and accepting/denying it (which would be insanity), there's no way to do that with Unbound. But, you playing at your FLGS with friends (or random pickup players) isn't a tournament. And if you were playing "serious tournament mode", pure Deathwing in any form isn't good anyway, so why the hell do you care?
Anyone who flips out and thinks about harming a person or their property because they hear the word "Unbound" should have their head checked. Use your brain while interacting with people.
I have a question that may have been answered.... In the two death wing detachments it states that all units must be placed in deep strike reserve. It also states that all units bust have the death wing special rule....
Does that mean my interrogator chaplain in power armour starts in deep strike reserve and drops in with death wing terminators? I like. I like a lot.
Requizen wrote: Wow, you have serious problems. Unbound is no issue as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand. End of story. You can accept or deny to play any game that you come across, but that doesn't mean the thing you don't like should be removed from the game.
In a tournament setting, they limit it because they need to have things in place to make a competitive environment. Short of having a TO go through every Unbound list and accepting/denying it (which would be insanity), there's no way to do that with Unbound. But, you playing at your FLGS with friends (or random pickup players) isn't a tournament. And if you were playing "serious tournament mode", pure Deathwing in any form isn't good anyway, so why the hell do you care?
Anyone who flips out and thinks about harming a person or their property because they hear the word "Unbound" should have their head checked. Use your brain while interacting with people.
Hey, it's not my decision. You know what they say, don't shoot the messenger.
And those that have the issue don't make a distinction, you say "as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand" but it sounds like the universal response would be "No. off you stupid cheater!" and I don't want to be subjected to that risk, many would not want to be subjected to that either, so encouraging people to go Unbound and saying it's an option will only put them at risk. Better to just not do it at all.
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Khaine's Wrath wrote: I have a question that may have been answered.... In the two death wing detachments it states that all units must be placed in deep strike reserve. It also states that all units bust have the death wing special rule....
Does that mean my interrogator chaplain in power armour starts in deep strike reserve and drops in with death wing terminators? I like. I like a lot.
Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!
Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.
So is the conclave librarius still a legal formation or is it gone? If legal, there is the way to get your librarians and not tax units of you want to use the ravenwing detachment. Then Ezekiel will just go with a sky hammer formation for extra face ripping.
Requizen wrote: Wow, you have serious problems. Unbound is no issue as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand. End of story. You can accept or deny to play any game that you come across, but that doesn't mean the thing you don't like should be removed from the game.
In a tournament setting, they limit it because they need to have things in place to make a competitive environment. Short of having a TO go through every Unbound list and accepting/denying it (which would be insanity), there's no way to do that with Unbound. But, you playing at your FLGS with friends (or random pickup players) isn't a tournament. And if you were playing "serious tournament mode", pure Deathwing in any form isn't good anyway, so why the hell do you care?
Anyone who flips out and thinks about harming a person or their property because they hear the word "Unbound" should have their head checked. Use your brain while interacting with people.
Hey, it's not my decision. You know what they say, don't shoot the messenger.
And those that have the issue don't make a distinction, you say "as long as you discuss it with the person beforehand" but it sounds like the universal response would be "No. off you stupid cheater!" and I don't want to be subjected to that risk, many would not want to be subjected to that either, so encouraging people to go Unbound and saying it's an option will only put them at risk. Better to just not do it at all.
What does that even mean? "Decision". You're not relaying some law, you're saying that your opinion is "punch people who run Unbound in the face". Plenty of people play Unbound. Plenty of people do so without conflict. Your opinion does not make it otherwise.
Rules are, Unbound is a thing. Being a decent human being means that you should accommodate people unless they're being a jerk. The person bringing Troop-less Space Marines isn't being a jerk. The person who doesn't even look a nd instead threatens to break their teeth and models (your words, not mine) is a jerk.
I know someone who hates the new Psychic Phase. He specifically runs armies without Psykers. He grumbles when we start our Psychic Phases and is known to throw dice. Is it "better to not have any Psykers at all" in case you interact with these sorts of people? No, because that's stupid. Psychic is part of the game, as is Unbound. Grow past it and play the game without insulting people for playing by the rules.
Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!
Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.
Can those terminators still take dedicated transports? Must they go into Deep Strike reserve as well? Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?
Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!
Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.
Can those terminators still take dedicated transports? Must they go into Deep Strike reserve as well? Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?
Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.
Though, it is thematic. Everything teleports in for Deathwing, not just themselves, but whatever leaders/vehicles/gear comes in as well.
as to giving Stealth, I don't believe that your own unit confers to the rule that gives buffs to units within 6". That's really pushing the rules. It may do so, but it seems a little dodgy to me. I think a clarification would be necessary.
That's how all things work. Do you think the Avatar doesn't give himself Furious Charge or Ezekiel doesn't give himself +1 attack?
the Avatar specifically states "the Avatar and all friendly units with the Eldar faction within 12"..." so this challenges your theory quite strongly. If it meant to include the Avatar, the need to indicate him specifically wouldn't be necessary.
Weirdly enough you can deepstrike power-armoured models or Bike ICs since there are no restrictions on taking them in the Deathwing formation. Odd!
Yeah, I noticed that also. You can deep strike in a Lib or Int Chap either in Power Armor or even on a bike the way the rules are set up with the Deathwing Strike Force.
Can those terminators still take dedicated transports? Must they go into Deep Strike reserve as well? Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?
These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.
So would such a unit be placed into Deep Strike Reserve and then do so? Or would it never arrive, stuck in reserve limbo?
My god, did this book even see an editor? Doesn't anyone proofread this crap? The SM and CWE book were both written pretty tightly and with rule that were as clear as you could ever expect GW to be. This book though, this book seems to be written by a class A amateur and what really pisses me off about this book, despite the fact that I'm not even playing DA, is how well this book demonstrates, that the people who wrote this book have zero understanding of the game, other than what they know about it through texts. It's clear that there were zero amounts of play testing involved in writing this book.
axisofentropy wrote: Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?
Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.
Why is it poorly written? Deep Striking Land Raiders has been a thing before, for all we know the authors intended for them to be a thing again.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it was a mistake.
It's not that I dislike it. I like it quite a lot, actually, Deathwing stuff teleporting in together is really cool and fluffy. But look at the post by axisofentropy above you - it's directly contradictory to the existing rules, without giving specific rules to override the BRB. If the Detachment said something like "models in this detachment gain the Deep Strike special rule if they do not have it", there would be no conflict and it would be all hunky dory. But without it:
Take a Land Raider as a DT for Terminators -> Has to be placed in DS reserve -> LR doesn't have DS -> ???
Place it in DS Reserve anyway because the Detachment says so? Fail to do so and put it just in Reserves or on the table? I would rule the former, but all it does is create 10-20 minutes of argument before a game starts. Like I said, poor writing. Not that the rules are bad, they're just transcribed poorly.
going back to the Land Speeder Support Squadron, what are people's thoughts on the loadouts. I'm thinking standard Darkshroud, 2 LS with HB/typhoon and 1 LS with HB/AC. 300pts on the nose.
What I love about it is......"Our bikes have Grim Resolve and overwatch you on a 5+.......well, my autarch has a banshee mask so no Overwatch for you.....yeah, but see all these land speeders? They get to overwatch too and there is nothing your banshee masks can do about it"
Requizen wrote: What does that even mean? "Decision". You're not relaying some law, you're saying that your opinion is "punch people who run Unbound in the face". Plenty of people play Unbound. Plenty of people do so without conflict. Your opinion does not make it otherwise.
Decision - THEM deciding that Unbound isn't valid.
And now, that's not my opinion, that's their decision! I personally wouldn't care about my opponent doing Unbound that much but I know that everyone hates it and has made that decision and I'm afraid of it being applied to myself and others. So stop saying it's my opinion, I'm not the one thinking that way, it's THEM!
Requizen wrote: Rules are, Unbound is a thing. Being a decent human being means that you should accommodate people unless they're being a jerk. The person bringing Troop-less Space Marines isn't being a jerk. The person who doesn't even look a nd instead threatens to break their teeth and models (your words, not mine) is a jerk.
But it doesn't matter, it's the people you call "jerks" who are making the decision rather than you or me, I can't stop them! They would just take it out on me if I tried!
axisofentropy wrote: Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?
Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.
Why is it poorly written? Deep Striking Land Raiders has been a thing before, for all we know the authors intended for them to be a thing again.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it was a mistake.
There are NUMEROUS, blatant problems with the rules as they are written in the codex. Many of them have been outlined here already. For example, the RW detachment has a 1-3 HQ slot, and a reroll warlord table rule, but the ONLY HQ allowed to be taken in the formation is Sammy, due to how the rules are written. There are quite a few others as well.
bullyboy wrote: going back to the Land Speeder Support Squadron, what are people's thoughts on the loadouts. I'm thinking standard Darkshroud, 2 LS with HB/typhoon and 1 LS with HB/AC. 300pts on the nose.
What I love about it is......"Our bikes have Grim Resolve and overwatch you on a 5+.......well, my autarch has a banshee mask so no Overwatch for you.....yeah, but see all these land speeders? They get to overwatch too and there is nothing your banshee masks can do about it"
Jink for a 2+ rerollable and then get a Primaris Rhino to buff your snapshots back to full BS 5.
Commissar Merces wrote: Three questions for people who understand CADs, formations, detachments etc better than me.
1. Is the librarian conclave still useable? If yes, that is how you get librarians on bikes with the ravenwing detachment.
2. On the RW formation, are the bikes and speeders all one squad or two separate units? Is the same true for the land speeder formation?
3. Can formations from the Lions blade only be taken in that detachment?
1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.
2. Two units. One Vehicle Squadron unit.
3. Any formation that has a Dataslate, which most of them do, may be taken by itself without a Lion's Blade detachment.
is a legal Ravenwing bound army. It's terrible, you'll never get an objective, but you'll sure as hell murderise something on the turn you come in. How many vortices will be on the board on turn 5?
Commissar Merces wrote: Three questions for people who understand CADs, formations, detachments etc better than me.
1. Is the librarian conclave still useable? If yes, that is how you get librarians on bikes with the ravenwing detachment.
2. On the RW formation, are the bikes and speeders all one squad or two separate units? Is the same true for the land speeder formation?
3. Can formations from the Lions blade only be taken in that detachment?
1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.
2. Two units. One Vehicle Squadron unit.
3. Any formation that has a Dataslate, which most of them do, may be taken by itself without a Lion's Blade detachment.
Fair enough. I'm less upset now. 4 Librarians and Sammy as HQs, followed by tons of bikers and dark shrouds with a sky hammer with Ezekiel and devies sounds like a plan.
1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.
Which means you're Allying it in, not fielding it as part of a Dark Angels force.
1. Yes, although Ezekiel can't ride a bike. You could probably use the other one in the Space Marine codex tho, and it's better anyway except losing Fearless and Interromancy.
Which means you're Allying it in, not fielding it as part of a Dark Angels force.
raiden wrote: I'm pissed, why is azreal the ONLY LoW without AP2 at initiative, hell, I'd take AP2 at I1. This is unacceptable
Also no EW, which is unusual for a SM Lord of War. He is both fragile and limited in damage capability. For five points more, Blood Angels get Commander Dante, who blows Azrael out of the water.
Anyone else think its kinda cool that we can still make a unit of 10 man Gunslinger Company Veterans with Plasma/ Bolt pistols? Sergeants too for that matter.
Plus give them an IC with the new relic for blanket preferred enemy... Stupid, but funny
this book seems to have really screwed my army. It is more complicated to build and really no better in any recognizable way. At least the old book was straight-forward and crappy. (unless you play ravenwing) this book is confusingly crappy. Let's be real, no one plays DA for greenwing.
Yeahhhhh sorry to my future competitors but i am going to use the old book with the following revisions: DWT squads -20 points (40 ppm) Belial +1A RW 2 specials per squad Techmarine +1W Mace of redemption AP3, Smite DWKs Hammer of Wrath
We'll consider it unbound or something... i dont care
Decision - THEM deciding that Unbound isn't valid.
And now, that's not my opinion, that's their decision! I personally wouldn't care about my opponent doing Unbound that much but I know that everyone hates it and has made that decision and I'm afraid of it being applied to myself and others. So stop saying it's my opinion, I'm not the one thinking that way, it's THEM!
But it doesn't matter, it's the people you call "jerks" who are making the decision rather than you or me, I can't stop them! They would just take it out on me if I tried!
...there is no THEM. There is no shadowy council of 40k Illuminati that puts down rules that you have to follow. You are the only one here saying Unbound requires physical violence. Multiple other people in this thread have said that Unbound is ok and that it's a good way to play a fluffy army that doesn't fit a CAD or Formation. There isn't anyone sitting behind you with a gun forcing you to not play Unbound or suffer the consequences.
So either you're trolling (poorly), or you're just looking for an excuse to make your "argument" sound more valid. Either way you're failing. Nothing you say, no imaginary group of people you can blame, can make Unbound illegal as a whole. It can be made illegal for an event, or with specific groups of people, but that doesn't make it globally banned or hated. A high percentage (possibly the majority) of people allow, play, or play against Unbound. The "Them" you want to blame for your own opinions doesn't exist.
emperorscorpion wrote: Anyone else think its kinda cool that we can still make a unit of 10 man Gunslinger Company Veterans with Plasma/ Bolt pistols? Sergeants too for that matter.
Plus give them an IC with the new relic for blanket preferred enemy... Stupid, but funny
emperorscorpion wrote: Anyone else think its kinda cool that we can still make a unit of 10 man Gunslinger Company Veterans with Plasma/ Bolt pistols? Sergeants too for that matter.
Plus give them an IC with the new relic for blanket preferred enemy... Stupid, but funny
We'll call them... the Cyphers!
I don't understand this reference, who would you be referring to?
As a separate note, please refer to your local Interrogator-Chaplain for a completely unrelated questioning and/or mind wipe.
emperorscorpion wrote: Anyone else think its kinda cool that we can still make a unit of 10 man Gunslinger Company Veterans with Plasma/ Bolt pistols? Sergeants too for that matter.
Plus give them an IC with the new relic for blanket preferred enemy... Stupid, but funny
We'll call them... the Cyphers!
I don't understand this reference, who would you be referring to?
As a separate note, please refer to your local Interrogator-Chaplain for a completely unrelated questioning and/or mind wipe.
Cypher this weird guy in black armor wields two pistols, thus gaining the Gunslinger rule.
emperorscorpion wrote: Anyone else think its kinda cool that we can still make a unit of 10 man Gunslinger Company Veterans with Plasma/ Bolt pistols? Sergeants too for that matter.
Plus give them an IC with the new relic for blanket preferred enemy... Stupid, but funny
We'll call them... the Cyphers!
I don't understand this reference, who would you be referring to?
As a separate note, please refer to your local Interrogator-Chaplain for a completely unrelated questioning and/or mind wipe.
Cypher wields two pistols, thus gaining the Gunslinger rule.
emperorscorpion wrote: Anyone else think its kinda cool that we can still make a unit of 10 man Gunslinger Company Veterans with Plasma/ Bolt pistols? Sergeants too for that matter.
Plus give them an IC with the new relic for blanket preferred enemy... Stupid, but funny
We'll call them... the Cyphers!
I don't understand this reference, who would you be referring to?
As a separate note, please refer to your local Interrogator-Chaplain for a completely unrelated questioning and/or mind wipe.
What if I told you I am the Chaplains? Then who was hunt!
Talk about cypher, any info on his new book?
I'm confused on this one is he csm or dark angel. Is he usable by both? Seems a strange book to tack into the collectors edition
gungo wrote: Talk about cypher, any info on his new book?
I'm confused on this one is he csm or dark angel. Is he usable by both? Seems a strange book to tack into the collectors edition
It's not a "new book"--it's his Dataslate, which is currently available. Same page counts and everything.
Deuce11 wrote: this book seems to have really screwed my army. It is more complicated to build and really no better in any recognizable way. At least the old book was straight-forward and crappy. (unless you play ravenwing) this book is confusingly crappy. Let's be real, no one plays DA for greenwing.
Yeahhhhh sorry to my future competitors but i am going to use the old book with the following revisions:
DWT squads -20 points (40 ppm)
Belial +1A
RW 2 specials per squad
Techmarine +1W
Mace of redemption AP3, Smite
DWKs Hammer of Wrath
We'll consider it unbound or something... i dont care
Can't you still use the CAD in the new codex? Why stick with the old one just because you have the option of formations now?
Requizen wrote: ...there is no THEM. There is no shadowy council of 40k Illuminati that puts down rules that you have to follow. You are the only one here saying Unbound requires physical violence. Multiple other people in this thread have said that Unbound is ok and that it's a good way to play a fluffy army that doesn't fit a CAD or Formation. There isn't anyone sitting behind you with a gun forcing you to not play Unbound or suffer the consequences.
So either you're trolling (poorly), or you're just looking for an excuse to make your "argument" sound more valid. Either way you're failing. Nothing you say, no imaginary group of people you can blame, can make Unbound illegal as a whole. It can be made illegal for an event, or with specific groups of people, but that doesn't make it globally banned or hated. A high percentage (possibly the majority) of people allow, play, or play against Unbound. The "Them" you want to blame for your own opinions doesn't exist.
Please stop.
I'm not trolling and I already told you these are not MY views (so please stop saying they are), it legitimately always came across that way whenever it came up, everyone always banning it.
If not, that's fine, but that doesn't make it my view, if you want to say that I was misinterpreting others' thoughts that's fine but it;s absolutely not my opinion in any way, it's what I thought others were saying and doing.
In any case, suggesting that people use an option that could just be banned isn't really a good idea, they'd be screwed in such a place whereas stuff like CADs would universally accepted.
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zgort wrote: Can't you still use the CAD in the new codex? Why stick with the old one just because you have the option of formations now?
Probably not without Azrael/Belial/Sammael's switching, that was removed.
It doesn't matter if some people ban Unbound. Some people ban formations. Some people ban Lords of War. Some people ban Named Characters, or vehicles with AV over 12. Don't play your game based on what some people ban, and don't tell others to do it either.
Requizen wrote: It doesn't matter if some people ban Unbound. Some people ban formations. Some people ban Lords of War. Some people ban Named Characters, or vehicles with AV over 12. Don't play your game based on what some people ban, and don't tell others to do it either.
Except he's not. He said what he was going to play, not that everyone else should play it that way. So far you've been the one telling people how they should play and that they should shut up for complaining that options which were present in the previous book were removed which made their army incompatible with the new rules.
And really if nobody in his area wants to play unbound then he either has to play based on that ban or not play at all.
So are you saying that he just shouldn't play at all because GW made needless changes?
Stop arguing with rezquim crash, dude don't listen and your wasting your time.
I see what your saying as I have experienced it too, if 80% of the people refuse to play unbound and 20% are cool with it, then it's not viable, rulebook or not, it's one of those situations where a few people have given it a bad name and the majority who want to try it get told no due to that.
Here's the thing though crash, if you speak to your local gaming group and explain the issue, they will most likely allow it with no issues at all, as it is quite frankly stupid that generic hq's with the relevant POINTED upgrades can't take this or that as troops.
Expect the same with chaos, khorne lord, take the khorne detachment, otherwise bezerkers are elites, btw they are now 28pts each with a chainaxe, I bet you this will happen.
Probably not without Azrael/Belial/Sammael's switching, that was removed.
Ah, didn't think of that. Still - seems strange to cherry pick the favorite rules. As an opponent I think I'd prefer if I was fighting 6E or 7E, not 6E with parts I like of 7E.
Deuce11 wrote: this book seems to have really screwed my army. It is more complicated to build and really no better in any recognizable way. At least the old book was straight-forward and crappy. (unless you play ravenwing) this book is confusingly crappy. Let's be real, no one plays DA for greenwing.
Yeahhhhh sorry to my future competitors but i am going to use the old book with the following revisions:
DWT squads -20 points (40 ppm)
Belial +1A
RW 2 specials per squad
Techmarine +1W
Mace of redemption AP3, Smite
DWKs Hammer of Wrath
We'll consider it unbound or something... i dont care
Well good luck with playing DA as a homebrew chapter from now on - snapping up all buffs from the new codex while taking everything that was removed/nerfed back from 6th ed is really cute and people will totally let you play that. /s
Seriously - just play fething Unbound. That's not even nearly as cheesy - even WITHOUT taking a look at your actual army lists - as your cherry-picking from both codexes. Why not go all-out and add some rules from other codexes as well, how about replacing your bolters with Rail Guns and some sweet Necron reassembly for your Dreamwing? Jesus.
Requizen wrote: ...there is no THEM. There is no shadowy council of 40k Illuminati that puts down rules that you have to follow. You are the only one here saying Unbound requires physical violence. Multiple other people in this thread have said that Unbound is ok and that it's a good way to play a fluffy army that doesn't fit a CAD or Formation. There isn't anyone sitting behind you with a gun forcing you to not play Unbound or suffer the consequences.
So either you're trolling (poorly), or you're just looking for an excuse to make your "argument" sound more valid. Either way you're failing. Nothing you say, no imaginary group of people you can blame, can make Unbound illegal as a whole. It can be made illegal for an event, or with specific groups of people, but that doesn't make it globally banned or hated. A high percentage (possibly the majority) of people allow, play, or play against Unbound. The "Them" you want to blame for your own opinions doesn't exist.
Please stop.
I'm not trolling and I already told you these are not MY views (so please stop saying they are), it legitimately always came across that way whenever it came up, everyone always banning it.
If not, that's fine, but that doesn't make it my view, if you want to say that I was misinterpreting others' thoughts that's fine but it;s absolutely not my opinion in any way, it's what I thought others were saying and doing.
In any case, suggesting that people use an option that could just be banned isn't really a good idea, they'd be screwed in such a place whereas stuff like CADs would universally accepted.
Exactly - but you're arguing with that straw man of these violent people that will beat you up over a fething game for 30 pages or so, can't you just leave it the feth alone? I noticed yesterday that you're not even really an "old" DA player - which is totally fine in itself if it weren't for the fact that you present yourself as this ancient "i always played this list" guy when you've not even finished fething assembling the fething models of that fething list - so your whole "but i want to play my old army list" spiel is just one thing: trolling.
And to people whining about "But people don't accept unbound" - how about explaining your list to them? I really don't see why people would object to you bringing a list that isn't cheesy. Unbound has such a bad rep because too many people think everyone that uses Unbound just wants to cheese it - Show them your list, tell them WHY you want to go unbound, stay calm and reasonable while explaining it. Don't go "bla fething GW fethed me over so now i want to play this Unbound stuff and you probably will call me a cheater for doing so" on them, tell them you want to play a composition that you really like which isn't overpowered.
Once you find one or two guys that let you play Unbound and you show them that it really isn't hidden cheese or whatever, people will take notice of that and start making less noise about >your< Unbound armies - as long as you don't start with the cheese.
This confuses me, because Uncle Sam had it. Why does 2nd Company Master get to wear eternal warrior cape, instead of Chapter Master? He should be loaning to Azzy.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Except he's not. He said what he was going to play, not that everyone else should play it that way. So far you've been the one telling people how they should play and that they should shut up for complaining that options which were present in the previous book were removed which made their army incompatible with the new rules.
And really if nobody in his area wants to play unbound then he either has to play based on that ban or not play at all.
So are you saying that he just shouldn't play at all because GW made needless changes?
Would you mind going back and reading the posts?
This is how the conversation went:
"I can't run my models like I used to with the FOC change!"
"Yeah, it sucks, but you can either buy some Troops or play Unbound."
"I don't want to buy Troops, I don't want anything to change."
"Then play Unbound. It's right there in the BRB."
"Unbound is cheating garbage."
"It's not, it's literally in the rules."
"Everyone who plays Unbound is the same as bringing all Baneblades."
"It's not, it's a fluffy list that happens to not fit into a CAD or Formation."
"If you play Unbound, people will hurt you and break your models."
"No, plenty of people play Unbound."
"You can't just tell people to play Unbound, what if someone doesn't like it?"
"Tough, that's their decision and not part of the game."
"Unbound is illegal."
Do you see where the frustration may come from? Unbound is not illegal. It's not cheesy. It's not threaten-worthy. It's literally just another way to build a list. Telling people anything otherwise is misleading.
Do some groups frown on it or ban it? Yes. But that doesn't make it any less a part of the game. Telling people that they're going to get beaten up and screamed at is just something else.
Thank you for understanding Malus, it really means a lot.
Formosa, you're probably right, mostly lately I was getting locked in by how he was saying it was MY view when it was what I saw OTHERS do... But really there isn't a whole lot I can do about it.
I'm probably gonna need to adapt to the new Formations (Don't really have one central community I'd be aiming for. For other stuff would be playing with two particular guys who'd be reasonable and I'd be reasonable back, or at GW itself where they probably wouldn't listen at all so not sure staying with the old setup would be feasible), just feel upset about having to.
zgort wrote:Ah, didn't think of that. Still - seems strange to cherry pick the favorite rules. As an opponent I think I'd prefer if I was fighting 6E or 7E, not 6E with parts I like of 7E.
Yeah, that's an odd solution. I could understand mild stuff like "I'd like to play 7E, but with FOC-swapping put back in", clear that up and I'm sure that reasonable people would be reasonable about it.
That however... That would be quite a longshot! At that point one might as well try and talk the opponent in allowing full homebrew rules.
the simplest solution would be to adapt to the new codex. I'm sure most other people will be tweaking their lists a little too....getting a couple extra landspeeders for the support squadron etc. You never know, you may enjoy how the new force plays...and let's face it...it will be new, so kind of fun.
Just have to get past the zero deployment conundrum.
Deuce11 wrote: Let's be real, no one plays DA for greenwing.
Your argument is invalid. I started Dark Angels with Greenwing by building the 5th company (only missing some vets with grav, dedicated transport and maybe another dread to be fully completed). It was before I even played with a single Bike or Terminator. So please rephrase with "not everyone play Dark Angels for Greenwing."
I'm personally not too affected by zero deployment since I'll have an ordinary CAD and/or Ravenwing standing around already. Feel horrible for those who do though... "Purest" solution is apparently to have lots of Drop Pod Dreads, but that's real-money expensive. On the bright side, since Deathwing's an independent formation the other people don't have to be Dark Angels if they won't want them to be, could have ordinary Marines, Guard, Inquisition or any number of things wandering around before the Deathwing pops in! Probably best to stick with Imperial choices though.
Had a probably stupid question that popped into my brain, but I'll ask it anyway: We had all this talk about Deep Striking Land Raiders, does it have to be THEIR Dedicated Transport to do this? Or could you for example take IG Allies and have a load of Deathwing Knights Deep Strike inside a Stormlord or a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT? I'm guessing "No, never, not in a million years, that doesn't make any sense and you're a moron for asking" but I just had to get the thought out there.
Watcher, I might not like Green dudes but you've got an impressive army there, well done!
Absolutely thought as much, was just a crazy thought.
A more pertinent one: Is the Triple Vindicator Combo Pie Plate Of Death a good counter for Biker shenanigans? It makes it an Apocalyptic Blast with Ignores Cover, so that sounds like an awfully large S10 AP2 template that'll delete any pesky Ravenwing it lands on. Besides the cost of 3 Vindies, of course.
1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.
Other erking points...
1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!
Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.
1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.
Other erking points...
1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!
Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.
Wait what? That is awful. When did this happen? ( I haven't played in 7th at all)
The Darkshroud specifically states the Darkshroud doesn't benefit from it, though. However, it does say all Dark Angels Units gain the Fear and Stealth special rule. So the squadron gains Fear and Stealth except for the Darkshroud?
That's correct, but a unit only needs one model to have Stealth for the entire unit to benefit from it. So, like I said, the unit will have Stealth and Shrouded until it's reduced to only the Darkshroud left, then it only has Shrouded.
It's similar to how Pedro's +1A applied to all units but him.
I don't see any issue with the squadron rule at all. You hit the closest target and all hits will hit taht one until it is destroyed then it goes to next closest. So a BS 5 Land raider can have 3 Ablative Predators.
Even better with the landspeeders. Equipped with HB/typhoon etc, it hits from long range. This means an enemy will need to use long range firepower to target them, risking doing nothing to a unit with 2+ rerollable jink saves.
So, yes, it should yield 2VP if destroyed because it's 4 separate vehicles in 1 unit.
axisofentropy wrote: Is there anything in the Deep Strike or Dedicated Transport rules to prevent deep-striking Land Raiders?
Technically? No. This book is rather poorly written.
Why is it poorly written? Deep Striking Land Raiders has been a thing before, for all we know the authors intended for them to be a thing again.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it was a mistake.
There are NUMEROUS, blatant problems with the rules as they are written in the codex. Many of them have been outlined here already. For example, the RW detachment has a 1-3 HQ slot, and a reroll warlord table rule, but the ONLY HQ allowed to be taken in the formation is Sammy, due to how the rules are written. There are quite a few others as well.
Ha! I didn't even realize the rerolled Warlord trait was also useless. Priceless! Maybe the developers only made it as far as the "click the web bundle and enter credit card" stage of the playtesting but ran out of time before they got to the "sit down and write a list" part?
1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.
Other erking points...
1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!
Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.
You should probably read the vehicle squadron rules again, against vehicles in Squadrons you allocate hits, then roll pens 1 at a time.
1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.
Other erking points...
1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!
Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.
You should probably read the vehicle squadron rules again, against vehicles in Squadrons you allocate hits, then roll pens 1 at a time.
You're right. For some reason I was thinking that hits were transferred to the next tank after rolling to pen. According to my (6th) rulebook on my phone, they transfer before rolling to pen.
Yep, the squadrons actually protect them a lot since it is one at a time. Land speeders with rerolling 2+ jink? Yes please!!! Honestly the dark shroud is actually worth considering now with e huge durability bump it got
I picked up my book today! My first impression was, HOLY CRAP. The book is so much an upgrade in terms of content from the old one that it isn't funny. It's beautifully assembled, and every bit as nice as C:SM.
Is there much in the way of new fiction? I know you haven't read it yet, but just skimming you should get a general idea since they seem to always format the fiction the same way from book to book.
1) the demi company requires chaplins, not Interrogator chaplains.
2) DA still cant get a Chapter Master outside of Azzy. We have no 4 wound character that we can play with.
3) Company Masters STILL cant have a bike.
Other erking points...
1) The stupid combine units is worth 2VP sucks because squadrons of vehicles transfer hits. So if someone shoots at your predators that have the Land Raider, and gets 4 pens against armor 11 side, you could lose the whole squadron (including Land Raider) as the hits transfer! This is BS!
Same thing for land speeders being combined, you now have 2 VP that could be wiped out by targetting 1 unit. I used to take my LS's as seperate units (normally in RWAS's) just to keep them alive longer. Now you can target 1 squad of 2-4 land speeders and kill them all with a tac squad of bolters.
You should probably read the vehicle squadron rules again, against vehicles in Squadrons you allocate hits, then roll pens 1 at a time.
actually, I'd say you should read them again.
pg 79
"Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit......Once the nearest model in the squadron is destroyed (ie wrecked or Explodes), the next hit is allocated against the new nearest model, and so on"
Later it talsk about allocating individual hits, rather than wounds, one at a time, to the closest model in the squadron.
this is all in bold, so can't really be misinterpreted.
bullyboy wrote: So a BS 5 Land raider can have 3 Ablative Predators.
I think you're confusing the actual benefit here. It's an ablative Land Raider to help protect your flimsy Predators.
no way, basic predator with autocannon is super cheap, let them soak the wounds keeping Land Raider alive. The Land Raider contains the techmarine and has better BS. Biggest downside is that the formation is best with the standard lascannon land raider, but you can't add DW knights to the raider with the tech marine inside. But a beefy command sqd can be well protected until it gets where it needs to go.
Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
Kavish wrote: Are we saying that DA overwatch is not snap shots? Ie: can overwatch with blast weapons?
I get the impression "full ballistic skill" means templates are ok. I could be wrong. It happens a lot.
This would make charging a plasma cannon a particularly nasty gamble, huh? Here's hoping
No, it's still a snap shot, but at BS4 instead of BS1. Which I realize doesn't feel like a Snap Shot, but it does mean that you don't get Blast weapons. Flamers still get Wall of Death autohits, though.
Commissar Merces wrote: Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
I'll take tier 2 over bottom of the pole any day Looks to be a nice improvement of 6E. I am looking forward to it. All about perspective
No, it's still a snap shot, but at BS4 instead of BS1. Which I realize doesn't feel like a Snap Shot, but it does mean that you don't get Blast weapons. Flamers still get Wall of Death autohits, though.
Thanks for clarification. Bummer - but still...BS4 is niceeee
You know, I think there's an interesting point to be made about Tier 2 armies.
If you play Tier 1 armies like Eldar Scat Bikes/D-weapons or Tau FireTide, when you rock up to the table, your opponent groans. They're already expecting a bad matchup (unless they've brought a similarly hardcore army). Sometimes this puts a damper on how fun the game is going to be.
But when you rock up with a Tier 2 army, your opponent is excited to play a fair match (or if they've brought a Tier 1 - is excited to crush you). Morale for the game is better. And then when you use your Tier 2 army to crush your foes, steal their horses, and hear the lamentations of the women - then you can truly celebrate.
I'm lookin at pickin up a second nephilim and a dark Talon to run a capture squadron as air support for my Vanilla marines. I like the model (once I scrape off all the DA junk that it is plastered in) and now they are rather effective.
Commissar Merces wrote: Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
Do you play much competitive 40k at all? This book is not tier 2. Obsec spam is hyper-competitive and crushes unprepared armies. Ravenwing is flat out uphill struggle for Eldar. Black Knights+Conclave deathstar is the new tier 1 build to beat. Ravenwing + Skyhammer wrecks Tau.
You have all the tools necessary to kill any ignores cover on the first turn. It's more obnoxious than Scatterbike spam (which isn't even competitive) because you can kill the scatter bikes.
Commissar Merces wrote: Sadly, this book is still tier 2. First tier being Eldar and Tau with C: SM being 1.5 with the iron hands/white scars super friends bike masters.
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
Do you play much competitive 40k at all? This book is not tier 2. Obsec spam is hyper-competitive and crushes unprepared armies. Ravenwing is flat out uphill struggle for Eldar. Black Knights+Conclave deathstar is the new tier 1 build to beat. Ravenwing + Skyhammer wrecks Tau.
You have all the tools necessary to kill any ignores cover on the first turn. It's more obnoxious than Scatterbike spam (which isn't even competitive) because you can kill the scatter bikes.
One thing the army lacks is answers to Superheavies. With Wraithknights and Imperial Knights being around, and more and more people becoming comfortable with Superheavies, you need an answer. Grav is a good start, and Plasma isn't terrible, but as long as a Wraithknight can stand out in front of the Eldar, DA won't exactly style all over them. It'll be much more even, with Ravenwing or Battle Company beating most of the Eldar list while smart Wraithknight and Bike play will be tougher to compete with.
I think DA is easily on the same tier as SM. Missing some toys from C:SM, but getting others of their own. And of course, being Army of the Imperium is the best bonus your army can have
Death By Monkeys wrote: You know, I think there's an interesting point to be made about Tier 2 armies.
If you play Tier 1 armies like Eldar Scat Bikes/D-weapons or Tau FireTide, when you rock up to the table, your opponent groans. They're already expecting a bad matchup (unless they've brought a similarly hardcore army). Sometimes this puts a damper on how fun the game is going to be.
But when you rock up with a Tier 2 army, your opponent is excited to play a fair match (or if they've brought a Tier 1 - is excited to crush you). Morale for the game is better. And then when you use your Tier 2 army to crush your foes, steal their horses, and hear the lamentations of the women - then you can truly celebrate.
This, this exactly. I play eldar as my competitive list.... I've taken it to some friendly games as a toned down version and you can instantly see the disappointment on my opponents faces except my tau playing friends. Not this is a friendly semi competitive book, that looks like it'll be a lot of fun to play, and you can build a fluffy list that's also not going to get stomped easily. If it wasn't for a couple of glaringly obvious mistakes then I'd be saying well done GW.
IF you are looking at a book from a competitive angle it needs to be in the context of what allies come with it. I think that DA brings a lot to the table as an army of the imperium. Just the number of special rules alone are enough to warrant their inclusion.
I was talking to my friends and was basically saying "You take white scars for your OS grav bikes with Khan, You take Ravenwing for Black knights" Seriously a black knight is the same cost as a grav biker from DA and is better in almost every way. They threaten almost every unit in the game between assault and shooting capabilities, as well as solid defense. Further the Ravenwing have scout, so combined with some reserve shenanigans you can basically have a solid alpha strike turn 2. Just a quick example lol.
Leth wrote: IF you are looking at a book from a competitive angle it needs to be in the context of what allies come with it. I think that DA brings a lot to the table as an army of the imperium. Just the number of special rules alone are enough to warrant their inclusion.
I was talking to my friends and was basically saying "You take white scars for your OS grav bikes with Khan, You take Ravenwing for Black knights" Seriously a black knight is the same cost as a grav biker from DA and is better in almost every way. They threaten almost every unit in the game between assault and shooting capabilities, as well as solid defense. Further the Ravenwing have scout, so combined with some reserve shenanigans you can basically have a solid alpha strike turn 2. Just a quick example lol.
It's just really lame that you can't take them in the Lion's Blade strike force.
Reinokarite wrote: So I have this stupid question: do DW/RW strikeforces counts as core detachments for Lion's Sword? Can I have full BS overwatch for my bikes?
The only core detachment shown in the Lion's Blade Strike Force is the Demi-Company. The DW/RW Strike Force aren't formations either.
So what's the main difference between using a Deathwing Redemption Force and the Deathwing Strike Force, and which would make more sense to make an army from?
Redemption Force is more restrictive in what units you must and can take. It confers Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines, you can pick if you arrive at turn 2, 3 or 4 for the entire force (drop pods included), and your army gains the ability to Run and Shoot or Shoot and Run the turn they arrive. When taken in a Lion's Blade Strike Force, it also gains the additional Overwatch buff.
The Strike Force opens up what you can take,as long as you have 1HQ and 2 Elites (so they can be Command Squads, or Knights as well. You can also go up to 3 HQ and 12 squads. If you include a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force you can also choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls for this detachment. And you get to re-roll your Warlord trait if he's from this force. They also gain the Run and Shoot ability.
Both need to be placed in Deep Strike reserve. However, the Strike Force can be played separately by adding in Drop Podded Venerable Dreads.
tydrace wrote: Redemption Force is more restrictive in what units you must and can take. It confers Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines, you can pick if you arrive at turn 2, 3 or 4 for the entire force (drop pods included), and your army gains the ability to Run and Shoot or Shoot and Run the turn they arrive. When taken in a Lion's Blade Strike Force, it also gains the additional Overwatch buff.
The Strike Force opens up what you can take,as long as you have 1HQ and 2 Elites (so they can be Command Squads, or Knights as well. You can also go up to 3 HQ and 12 squads. If you include a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force you can also choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls for this detachment. And you get to re-roll your Warlord trait if he's from this force. They also gain the Run and Shoot ability.
Both need to be placed in Deep Strike reserve. However, the Strike Force can be played separately by adding in Drop Podded Venerable Dreads.
At least that's what I noticed.
That seems like what I noticed overall. Better than they were at least, but probably not competitive still.
Reinokarite wrote: So I have this stupid question: do DW/RW strikeforces counts as core detachments for Lion's Sword?
DWSF and RWSF are both regular detachments , basically treat them just like you would treat a CAD. They just have different construction rules and benefits.
"Advanced detachments" like the LBSF or the Decurion simply replace the FOC that normal detachments have with a list of "choices" . This list usually includes a specific set of Formations, but can also include "sets of units" (for lack of a better word) like "Bring 1 unit of Flayed Ones" or "Bring 1-5 units of Scouts". If you add a formation, units in that formation gain both the advantages of the advanced detachment AND the formation, while units taken via one of the "set of units"-choices obviously only gain the advantages froim the advanced detachment.
So if a detachment or formation is not explicitly listed in the construction rules of the advanced detachment, it can't be part of it. I'd wager a guess that there will be new formations in the future that have a rule exception saying "You may use this formation as a Core selection for any Gladius Strike Force detachment".
Kanluwen wrote: Am I reading that right, the Ravenwing Support Squadron has flippin' "Strafing Run" and "Interceptor"?
Yeah, tried the new Codex out last night with a Demi-Company, Hammer of Caliban and Ravenwing Support Squadron - racked up 2,000 points very, very easily. Fought against Dark Eldar.
It was kinda nice using the Demi-Company - I don't normally take Assault and Devastator Squads as a first choice and would normally have only two Tactical Squads. Taking them all felt like a return to 'proper' Marine armies and you forget how good they can actually be at times. And the Overwatch on full BS is very, very tasty.
The Hammer of Caliban is a lot of points and would probably be brilliant against a Leman Russ Squadron, Knight or Baneblade. Against single targets though.. it really is a waste of firepower. That said, it formed a solid anchor around an objective and utterly blasted whatever it pointed at.
As for the Ravenwing Squadron... It is frankly all kinds of awesome and the 'Power Builds' will be centred around Ravenwing as a whole for a while, I think. They are just untouchable and having Interceptor added is just plain rude. Someone wanders near the squadron preparing to assault, hose them down with Assault Cannon fire. If possible, don't use all the weapons in the squadron so they remain a threat in your turn.
The Dark Eldar player was _not_ happy. The Squadron tied up a third of his army in the first half of the game, then boosted across the table to an objective. That forced his Archon and Incubi to come out to play - the Squadron blew their Venom out of the sky and left them in front of the Hammer of Caliban.
Ever seen what a veritable battery of Lascannon, Hevay Bolters and Autocannon do to an elite squad of Eldar? Ain't pretty.
Dark angel librarians cannot take storm shields...
Hammer of Caliban is spending a bunch of points to give a land raider tank Hunter and monster Hunter, since the predators get it anyway in a squad of three. I guess you could take something that is not predators, but...
The Knight Masters mace of absolution doesn't get smite.
8 meltabombs for the eye? Jeez, that's a lot for preferred enemy...
Crazyterran wrote: Edit: going through the leaks...
Hammer of Caliban is spending a bunch of points to give a land raider tank Hunter and monster Hunter, since the predators get it anyway in a squad of three. I guess you could take something that is not predators, but...
Well with the fine difference that they won't loose those USR if one Pred gets taken out
Dark angel librarians cannot take storm shields...
Hammer of Caliban is spending a bunch of points to give a land raider tank Hunter and monster Hunter, since the predators get it anyway in a squad of three. I guess you could take something that is not predators, but...
The Knight Masters mace of absolution doesn't get smite.
8 meltabombs for the eye? Jeez, that's a lot for preferred enemy...
Knight Master has Flail of the Unforgiven- never had smite.
I've been contemplating Hammer of Caliban as LR + 3 whirlwinds. Nice and cheap; can shoot a lascannon at a different target with POTMS if need be; shred/tank hunter S5 will hurt infantry, light vehicles and most MCs. And you can still have something countercharge-y in the LR. Only problem is that you probably have a better source of S5 in the speeder formation...
Thairne wrote: Why not take a crusader? Fits the target profiles of whirlies more closely
I have been thinking about this - and Whirlwinds may not make a great deal of sense with any Land Raider, unless you are expecting to be getting Ork or Tyranid hordes shoved down your face, in which case a Crusader works.
I think a Crusader works better with Vindicators - all fairly short-ranged, can roam the battlefield (slowly), blowing away anything they meet. Godhammer with the Predators is the obvious one.
But Whirlwinds? It would be nice to have a Helios in there. but we can't, so that is out the window.
Three Whirlwinds and a Land Raider just do not seem very... efficient.
The idea with the standard LR is that you get to sit in your dep zone and shell stuff, till you need to zip it forward and charge / countercharge. A crusader means you have to go too close. All very gunline-y though, which may not fit the post-Maelstrom play style...
DJGietzen wrote: Only two HQ's with the ravenwing rule? I guess all the dark angel successor chapters have their of sableclaw and guy on a one of a kind jet bike...
DJGietzen wrote: Only two HQ's with the ravenwing rule? I guess all the dark angel successor chapters have their of sableclaw and guy on a one of a kind jet bike...
One of the occupants of Sableclaw and the guy on the one of a kind bike are also convinced they are the same person...
All it would have taken was for the Bike profile to say that any Marine with the Deathwing rule that takes a Space Marine Bike replaces the Deathwing special rule with the Ravenwing special rule.
I wish Interrogator-Chaplain was an upgrade to a regular Chaplain the way a Chapter Master is an upgrade to a Captain. That way someone can take an IC in the demi-company.
So I've been lurking on this thread since it's inception, and I'm just curious. Yes, bikes not conferring the Ravenwing special rule seems like a pretty serious oversight on GW's part. But I mean the Ravenwing CAD clearly says 3 HQ's, which to me implies they intended other characters to be able to join on their bikes. Worst case scenario they don't FAQ it and you just ask your FLGS to allow your non-Uncle Sam bike characters have the Ravenwing rule, maybe even instead of the Deathwing rule.
Just saying, it's stupid, but easily overcome.
DJGietzen wrote: Only two HQ's with the ravenwing rule? I guess all the dark angel successor chapters have their of sableclaw and guy on a one of a kind jet bike...
except you cant..............
sableclaw is sammael. You get one or the other
I'm aware of that. When I make successor chapter armies I try and avoid named characters. It can be a lot more fun to create a whole new guy from a 'generic' HQ but in this book it looks like there is no way to give generic HQ the ravenwing special rule. That means the ravenwing detachment that requires at least 1 HQ and all units to have the ravening rule can only be used if you want to run either sablecalw or sammael and I find that disappointing, especially for successor chapter lists.
On the topic of Ravenwing characters, it gets a little more complicated than just replacing Deathwing with Ravenwing rule.
This would work fine for the Chaplain, a simple swap.
However, this would not work for Librarians and Interrogator Chaplains. Both of these entities are in the Inner Circle and therefore should keep the Deathwing rule, which means he would retain Fearless and Hatred (Chaos Space Marines).
But....would they have been in the Ravenwing to gain the ability to use the reroll jink rule? Possible for Interrogator Chaplain I guess if he was once a chaplain in the Ravenwing. Otherwise I don't think they should benefit from the Ravenwing rule. That is debatable though, and probably more complicated than necessary.
So the entries should have been altered as such.
Chaplain..add ravenwing rule with addendum that only if mounted on bike
Librarian and Interrogator Chaplain..keep Deathwing and add Ravenwing with rule with addendum that only if mounted on bike.
It would be wrong to simply just replace Deathwing with Ravenwing. (I can imagine Robert DeNiro in power armour and a robe saying "I have no choice but to put you outside the circle of trust Brother Focker, and once you're out, there's no coming back..")
OR you simply allow IC with a Bike to also be taken in the RWFS.
"must either have the Ravenwing Special Rule or the Independant Character Special rule, having purchased a Space Marine Bike".
You're free and encouraged to cross check with the Codex if something seems iffy.
I'll fix that Relic problem in the next 2 minutes, so please don't be so condescending to the hard work some people put into making your life easier.
Turbo-boosting Ravenwing bikes can shoot
Bikes pin on 3d6 Deathwing can deep strike first turn and charge
Deathwing can re-roll to hit and wound in close combat
Knighthammer
2 Black Knight Squadrons
2 Deathwing Knight Squads
First the Black, then the White
Turbo-boosting Black Knights can shoot and charge
Any units shot may not overwatch
Deathwing Knights can deep strike first turn and charge
Deathwing Knights may use Smite mode with full attacks
Itty bitty mistake in your strategy:
Turbo-boosting still is instead of shooting and you still cannot assault that turn. But you count as jinking and do not fire snapshots in your following turn.
Neither can DWDS in turn 1 OR charge after DSing.
And finally, smiting DW Knights only have 1 Attack.
Thairne wrote: Itty bitty mistake in your strategy:
Turbo-boosting still is instead of shooting and you still cannot assault that turn. But you count as jinking and do not fire snapshots in your following turn.
He's making up rules so he certainly can make an exception.
Thairne wrote: Itty bitty mistake in your strategy:
Turbo-boosting still is instead of shooting and you still cannot assault that turn. But you count as jinking and do not fire snapshots in your following turn.
He's making up rules so he certainly can make an exception.
I wish they were made up, but they're the Skyhammer rules...
raiden wrote: From what I see, DWK still have str10 smite though. Note smite does NOT change the weapon profile, they just make a strx2 attack. 6x2=12=10
Eh? It's a Sx2 AP 2 attack. If you were smiting with the mace it would be AP 4. They're smiting it with the force of their grim and noble visage. It's an attack like Blue Steel or Le Tigre.
raiden wrote: From what I see, DWK still have str10 smite though. Note smite does NOT change the weapon profile, they just make a strx2 attack. 6x2=12=10
Eh? It's a Sx2 AP 2 attack. If you were smiting with the mace it would be AP 4. They're smiting it with the force of their grim and noble visage. It's an attack like Blue Steel or Le Tigre.
I envision them head banging the enemy into submission as they air guitar thier puny maces
raiden wrote: From what I see, DWK still have str10 smite though. Note smite does NOT change the weapon profile, they just make a strx2 attack. 6x2=12=10
Even if that were the case, it would be (4 x 2) + 2 = 10.
Was there any rumors or warning to the sm skyhammer formation or did it just appear? Wondering if there will be one if a DA equivalent comes out. Just incase I decide to get it, I'll need time to fill out the second morgage paperwork.
pwntallica wrote: Was there any rumors or warning to the sm skyhammer formation or did it just appear? Wondering if there will be one if a DA equivalent comes out. Just incase I decide to get it, I'll need time to fill out the second morgage paperwork.
Completely unexpected. It hit us like a sudden assault from deep strike and left us cowering, unable to defend ourselves.
Thairne wrote: OR you simply allow IC with a Bike to also be taken in the RWFS.
"must either have the Ravenwing Special Rule or the Independant Character Special rule, having purchased a Space Marine Bike".
Done.
I was thinking they should have 'addressed' this issue by not have a 'space marine bike' in the wargear. It should have been a 'ravenwing bike' that has all the exact same rules as a space marine bike but also gives the rider the ravenwing special rule. Yeah that would mean a bunch of models would be both ravenwing and deathwing but it looks like deathwing now means inner circle and if I remember my 6th edition fluff the ravenwing, or at least its leaders, are in on the secret.
pwntallica wrote: Was there any rumors or warning to the sm skyhammer formation or did it just appear? Wondering if there will be one if a DA equivalent comes out. Just incase I decide to get it, I'll need time to fill out the second morgage paperwork.
Completely unexpected. It hit us like a sudden assault from deep strike and left us cowering, unable to defend ourselves.
pwntallica wrote: Was there any rumors or warning to the sm skyhammer formation or did it just appear? Wondering if there will be one if a DA equivalent comes out. Just incase I decide to get it, I'll need time to fill out the second morgage paperwork.
You're credit score need not fear. Dark angels don't get nearly the amount of love the other marines do. The best we can hope for is a shield of ball type treatment the blood angels got. Trouble is BA, DA and SW players can 'barrow' formations from the SM units and all of the core models are shared accross the range. Tracking the metrics it looks like SM armies out sell DA or BA armies by a huge margin. While I'm sure its true SM armies are more common I suspect the margin is not as large as pure sales data would show. So GW makes more bundles/formations for SM then DA because they think the SM market is much much larger then the DA. Then lots of us DA players go out and by those bundles/formations and contribute to the lie.
If you look at the stuff that came out in 6th edition. The dark angels codex has had a longer shelf life but received almost no army support. A couple of bundles and 1 or two formations. The space marines on the other hand, shorter shelf life, a dozen or so bundles and 6 or 7 formations.
pwntallica wrote: Was there any rumors or warning to the sm skyhammer formation or did it just appear? Wondering if there will be one if a DA equivalent comes out. Just incase I decide to get it, I'll need time to fill out the second morgage paperwork.
You're credit score need not fear. Dark angels don't get nearly the amount of love the other marines do. The best we can hope for is a shield of ball type treatment the blood angels got. Trouble is BA, DA and SW players can 'barrow' formations from the SM units and all of the core models are shared accross the range. Tracking the metrics it looks like SM armies out sell DA or BA armies by a huge margin. While I'm sure its true SM armies are more common I suspect the margin is not as large as pure sales data would show. So GW makes more bundles/formations for SM then DA because they think the SM market is much much larger then the DA. Then lots of us DA players go out and by those bundles/formations and contribute to the lie.
If you look at the stuff that came out in 6th edition. The dark angels codex has had a longer shelf life but received almost no army support. A couple of bundles and 1 or two formations. The space marines on the other hand, shorter shelf life, a dozen or so bundles and 6 or 7 formations.
despite the truth to your words, I will still hang on to the hope we will get some stuff, including quick and accurate FAQ concerning some of the flaws (ravenwing HQ choices). The thing is it does look like more SM sales because you don't have a BA/DA/SW kit for everything (ie LR, devs, tacs, DP, ect). The old RW battle force was so awesome for bike armies though. I luckily noticed it going away and snatched up 5 more, the last of the stock of our local stores, and the last one at a GW in Toronto. SO. MANY. BIKES. With the new codes, I will only need DWK and RWK, and finally our beautiful flier, so the DV expansion set looks good. The new box set isn't awful, especially now that we have actual attack bike squads.
BA did get a whole lot of formations in their campaign book though, so the forthcoming rumoured DA vs Tzeentch should bring some joy.
Also, Skyhammer was there to sell the new Assault Marines and Devs, although I'm sure they'd sell an equal number of Deathravenhammer or Knighthammer despite being new kits.
It's possible Dark Vengeance models weren't supported because DV is sold at a relative net loss for GW. The Helbrute got a number of formation buffs though, so go figure.
Thairne wrote: Itty bitty mistake in your strategy:
Turbo-boosting still is instead of shooting and you still cannot assault that turn. But you count as jinking and do not fire snapshots in your following turn.
Neither can DWDS in turn 1 OR charge after DSing.
And finally, smiting DW Knights only have 1 Attack.
You either are trolling...
........or mimicking the rules for the formation he is obviously mimicking
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: BA did get a whole lot of formations in their campaign book though, so the forthcoming rumoured DA vs Tzeentch should bring some joy.
Also, Skyhammer was there to sell the new Assault Marines and Devs, although I'm sure they'd sell an equal number of Deathravenhammer or Knighthammer despite being new kits.
It's possible Dark Vengeance models weren't supported because DV is sold at a relative net loss for GW. The Helbrute got a number of formation buffs though, so go figure.
The Dangels did get some formations for the models in DV - problem is they're TERRIBLE
pwntallica wrote: Was there any rumors or warning to the sm skyhammer formation or did it just appear? Wondering if there will be one if a DA equivalent comes out. Just incase I decide to get it, I'll need time to fill out the second morgage paperwork.
There's no new boxes to sell. Historically they have only done that with one click bundles of new boxes.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: BA did get a whole lot of formations in their campaign book though, so the forthcoming rumoured DA vs Tzeentch should bring some joy.
This. I can't wait. We could even leave this thread open but the past dozen pages were so terrible we should just close it.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: BA did get a whole lot of formations in their campaign book though, so the forthcoming rumoured DA vs Tzeentch should bring some joy.
This. I can't wait. We could even leave this thread open but the past dozen pages were so terrible we should just close it.
Thairne wrote: You're free and encouraged to cross check with the Codex if something seems iffy.
I'll fix that Relic problem in the next 2 minutes, so please don't be so condescending to the hard work some people put into making your life easier.
I wasn't condescending. Just wanted to do a little checking on the codex before paying money for it. Terminators are cool and all, but it has still fit to be worth it.
At the very least, Interrogators and Deathwing Knights are bloody awesome.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: BA did get a whole lot of formations in their campaign book though, so the forthcoming rumoured DA vs Tzeentch should bring some joy.
This. I can't wait. We could even leave this thread open but the past dozen pages were so terrible we should just close it.
Sorry for off topic post, but I looked at my order status on GW's website (I ordered the Reclusiam Edition) and it still says its pending. Is it normal for the LE codexes to be late arriving (because I don't think it'll get here by Saturday if it hasn't already shipped).
ZergSmasher wrote: Sorry for off topic post, but I looked at my order status on GW's website (I ordered the Reclusiam Edition) and it still says its pending. Is it normal for the LE codexes to be late arriving (because I don't think it'll get here by Saturday if it hasn't already shipped).
I got my C:SM preorder shipping notice on Friday and the Codex was in my store on Saturday, waiting for me to pick it up - but I'm not in the US obviously, maybe another American has experience with that?
Okay, wondering about Hammer of Caliban now.
Can that Techmarine who's supposed to start shoved into the Land Raider have Servitors with him? And are they allowed to disembark ever or is he forced to stay on the LR forever?
CrashGordon94 wrote: Okay, wondering about Hammer of Caliban now.
Can that Techmarine who's supposed to start shoved into the Land Raider have Servitors with him? And are they allowed to disembark ever or is he forced to stay on the LR forever?
the rule says just begin the game in the LR. As for Servitors, they are basically upgrades for the tech so yes he can add them. If you do disembark the tech, the LR will lose the BS5 though, it only confers while he's mounted.
CrashGordon94 wrote: Okay, wondering about Hammer of Caliban now.
Can that Techmarine who's supposed to start shoved into the Land Raider have Servitors with him? And are they allowed to disembark ever or is he forced to stay on the LR forever?
the rule says just begin the game in the LR. As for Servitors, they are basically upgrades for the tech so yes he can add them. If you do disembark the tech, the LR will lose the BS5 though, it only confers while he's mounted.
If you have him get out and then back in, will it come back?
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
Can you explain how Wyverns are going to hurt Ravenwing bikes?
S4 shred = 55% chance to wound against T5
They ignore cover? Okay, what does that do against a 3+ armor save? How is that an efficient way of clearing out Bike squads?
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
Can you explain how Wyverns are going to hurt Ravenwing bikes?
S4 shred = 55% chance to wound against T5
They ignore cover? Okay, what does that do against a 3+ armor save? How is that an efficient way of clearing out Bike squads?
Because wyverns are extremely strong. Re-rolling to hit and to wound is so good.
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
Can you explain how Wyverns are going to hurt Ravenwing bikes?
S4 shred = 55% chance to wound against T5
They ignore cover? Okay, what does that do against a 3+ armor save? How is that an efficient way of clearing out Bike squads?
I am goin to assume you have never seen a battery of wyverns firing before.......
When you can easily get 2 or 3 hits per blast and then have 4-12 shots....
I'm just not convinced, with how much ignores cover there is, that ravenwing is going to have a prayer. Wyverns, Tau everything and daemon prince spam are still going to hurt DA bad.
Can you explain how Wyverns are going to hurt Ravenwing bikes?
S4 shred = 55% chance to wound against T5
They ignore cover? Okay, what does that do against a 3+ armor save? How is that an efficient way of clearing out Bike squads?
3+ armor fails 1 out of 3 saves. a 3+ rerollable jink fails only 1 out of 9 saves, and if they buff that to a 2+ jink, 1 out of 36 failed saves.
jokerkd wrote: The thing is, apart from tau, nothing there actually gets taken in any games i see.
We can all tailor lists to certain armies. It wont help in a competition
Guard players take Wyverns all the time. They're one of the best units in the codex and one of its redeeming factors.
I'll take your word for it.
I'm actually more interested in playing difficult armies to start with. I've lined up games against tau, Emperor's children and eldar so far to see how they go. Honestly didn't consider guard because every guard army I've played lately has been a pushover
I don't think the new book is op, but i have a much better chance now for sure
jokerkd wrote: The thing is, apart from tau, nothing there actually gets taken in any games i see.
We can all tailor lists to certain armies. It wont help in a competition
Guard players take Wyverns all the time. They're one of the best units in the codex and one of its redeeming factors.
Honestly didn't consider guard because every guard army I've played lately has been a pushover
Considering that the codex is essentially the same as the 5th edition with a couple point costs rejigged (mostly against their favor) your experiences aren't surprising. Though I can certainly note that the DA player I played against wasn't exactly great either.
Space Ghost wrote: I'm thinking Dark Talons, Ravenwing Support Squadrons, and Black Knights are the real heroes of this book. Oh, and the return of Ironwing.
And just think, if they fix the HQ issue with RW, you can get more than just Sammael. Maybe an Interrogator-Chaplain or Librarian. The formations are the saving grace of the Ravenwing Strike Force, they just happen to be really good too.
Formosa wrote: I'm surprised that no one has commented on the nonsense that is the 50pt dw terminator with th/ss, return to massive over priced dw termies of 3rd
Considering a basic DW terminator dropped in price, we're only paying 1pt more than we used to (50pts instead of 49) which isn't -that- bad.
It lines up with DW terminators being 5pts more than their SM counterparts, an Ultramarine terminator with TH/SS costs 45pts, a Deathwing terminator costs 50 because of...reasons? Easier access to no-scatter deep strike? Fearless? Hatred: CSM? Fancier hats?
Formosa wrote: I'm surprised that no one has commented on the nonsense that is the 50pt dw terminator with th/ss, return to massive over priced dw termies of 3rd
Considering a basic DW terminator dropped in price, we're only paying 1pt more than we used to (50pts instead of 49) which isn't -that- bad.
It lines up with DW terminators being 5pts more than their SM counterparts, an Ultramarine terminator with TH/SS costs 45pts, a Deathwing terminator costs 50 because of...reasons? Easier access to no-scatter deep strike? Fearless? Hatred: CSM? Fancier hats?
You are paying for Split Fire and the ability to make mixed squads. Being able to take two CMLs and have them fire at completely different from what you are assaulting is pretty cool. I would LOVE Split Fire on Terminators. I would actually take Tactical Terminators if they came with Split Fire (and would attach Pedro Kantor to them for added fun).
Formosa wrote: I'm surprised that no one has commented on the nonsense that is the 50pt dw terminator with th/ss, return to massive over priced dw termies of 3rd
Considering a basic DW terminator dropped in price, we're only paying 1pt more than we used to (50pts instead of 49) which isn't -that- bad.
It lines up with DW terminators being 5pts more than their SM counterparts, an Ultramarine terminator with TH/SS costs 45pts, a Deathwing terminator costs 50 because of...reasons? Easier access to no-scatter deep strike? Fearless? Hatred: CSM? Fancier hats?
You are paying for Split Fire and the ability to make mixed squads. Being able to take two CMLs and have them fire at completely different from what you are assaulting is pretty cool. I would LOVE Split Fire on Terminators. I would actually take Tactical Terminators if they came with Split Fire (and would attach Pedro Kantor to them for added fun).
That's all perfectly valid, but I think you're underselling the importance of fancier hats
Formosa wrote: I'm surprised that no one has commented on the nonsense that is the 50pt dw terminator with th/ss, return to massive over priced dw termies of 3rd
Considering a basic DW terminator dropped in price, we're only paying 1pt more than we used to (50pts instead of 49) which isn't -that- bad.
It lines up with DW terminators being 5pts more than their SM counterparts, an Ultramarine terminator with TH/SS costs 45pts, a Deathwing terminator costs 50 because of...reasons? Easier access to no-scatter deep strike? Fearless? Hatred: CSM? Fancier hats?
You are paying for Split Fire and the ability to make mixed squads. Being able to take two CMLs and have them fire at completely different from what you are assaulting is pretty cool. I would LOVE Split Fire on Terminators. I would actually take Tactical Terminators if they came with Split Fire (and would attach Pedro Kantor to them for added fun).
That's all perfectly valid, but I think you're underselling the importance of fancier hats
A stampede of angry TF2 players closes in on the thread
Formosa wrote: I'm surprised that no one has commented on the nonsense that is the 50pt dw terminator with th/ss, return to massive over priced dw termies of 3rd
Considering a basic DW terminator dropped in price, we're only paying 1pt more than we used to (50pts instead of 49) which isn't -that- bad.
It lines up with DW terminators being 5pts more than their SM counterparts, an Ultramarine terminator with TH/SS costs 45pts, a Deathwing terminator costs 50 because of...reasons? Easier access to no-scatter deep strike? Fearless? Hatred: CSM? Fancier hats?
You are paying for Split Fire and the ability to make mixed squads. Being able to take two CMLs and have them fire at completely different from what you are assaulting is pretty cool. I would LOVE Split Fire on Terminators. I would actually take Tactical Terminators if they came with Split Fire (and would attach Pedro Kantor to them for added fun).
That's all perfectly valid, but I think you're underselling the importance of fancier hats
The Deathwing Command Squad lets you buy a bitchin' pimp cane with a sword at the end. The benefits of this should be obvious.
On topic of deathwing command squad.... Am I missing something, or is there literally no point in taking a standard deathwing squad in the deathwing detachment? Why would you not take a command squad? Especially when an apothecary is a 5 point upgrade only?
Whilst we're on that topic.... Why would you ever take the strike force over the detachment? The stirke force forces you to pick a turn they arrive. The detachment allows you to assess the battle and choose to pass or fail reserves..... To me the strike force seems pointless outside of adding deathwing to the lions blade.
You can only take a single Deathwing Apothecary in the army, and the Command squad maxes out at 5 dudes. It's pretty much lesser version of the Company Vets/Command Squad debacle, there's not much difference.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: On topic of deathwing command squad.... Am I missing something, or is there literally no point in taking a standard deathwing squad in the deathwing detachment? Why would you not take a command squad? Especially when an apothecary is a 5 point upgrade only?
Whilst we're on that topic.... Why would you ever take the strike force over the detachment? The stirke force forces you to pick a turn they arrive. The detachment allows you to assess the battle and choose to pass or fail reserves..... To me the strike force seems pointless outside of adding deathwing to the lions blade.
The command squad is a compromise of more options for less models. All the command squads are the same. Less models but much better options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, do you know what else ignores cover? Pure close combat daemon armies.....
jakejackjake wrote: Wait you can "choose" to fail reserves? And are there really a lot of reasons to do that? Seems like playing 110-400 pts down is not awesome
Where can you choose to fail reserves? Is that a formation bonus or something?
Choosing to fail reserves can be quite powerful. Maybe you have a weak squad in reserves (like flat Tactical Marines, Scouts, Cultists, etc) and you don't want it to come in til later - you just want them to get on objectives last turn. Maybe you have a counter unit that you want to wait to get on after the thing it counters - this comes up a lot in flyer v flyer matchups, where the second flyer on wins. Maybe you want a combo to happen - Teleport Homer unit comes down first, waits a turn, and then the unit that needs the Homer comes in the turn after.
). Looking forward to using it for something other than fun and giggles.
)
off you stupid cheater!" and I don't want to be subjected to that risk, many would not want to be subjected to that either, so encouraging people to go Unbound and saying it's an option will only put them at risk. Better to just not do it at all.
