Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: I'm at the point where I'm going to start asking my opponents if its ok to run some of the apocalypse formations for my IG.
I might have to start collecting that xenos army soon..
I'm at the point of considering getting some Chaos Sorcerer models, and using them to attach a Librarius Conclave to my IG. Buff them all to gak.
The function of Long Range Penetration groups is to raid and disrupt enemy operations, cut off or hamper supply chains, and leave enemy front lines more susceptible to blocking actions during offensive initiatives. Either you let the group continue to harry your supplies and attack you where you are tactically disadvantaged, or divert additional resources in order to find them and take them out. To get the tactical advantage over a long range penetration group you have to commit resources, time, and manpower to locate and exterminate them. A committal of the resources leave your front lines in a weaker position making you more susceptible to an enemy offensive. The primary advantage is that a group such as this can operate and maneuver in terrain that would be unsuitable, or disadvantageous to conventional forces. Most vehicles are not able to perform well at all within the environments that a LRP would operate. The problem is that I need concentrated firepower on the tactical level when strategically LRPGs are generally vastly outnumbered in every other logistical metric. I don't want to restrict my opponents on what they can take, but a LRPG chooses its engagements and it makes no sense to fight large, brutish, or otherwise unwieldy enemies in the confines of the tactical and strategical doctrines that a LRPG utilizes.
Run this with a Scion Air Cav formation and a few supporting flyers.
Catachan Ambush Patrol:
1 Infantry Platoon
1-3 Veteran squads
Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Outflank. The formation has Shrouded until it moves in open ground, shoots, or assaults. Also, due to traps, enemies assaulting through cover must make dangerous terrain tests.
Catachan Ambush patrol is apocalypse only. Furthermore, traditional guard platoons require far too many men, who are at the individual level incapable of performing any results. Platoons border far too much on the horde side. Typically I will 4 veteran squads all with camo cloaks, but am going to be replacing 2 veteran squads for assault squads (see codex above). I have 7 sentinels that I use, along with vendetta air support. While I can supplement my weak ground forces via airsupport, the nature of 40k artillery and its necessary presence on the board forces me to abstain from using it (aside from master of ordinance).
These are all self imposed restrictions and I realize that such a play style only appeals to a small minority; I just wish I could use actual GW rules to represent my force.
If you'd like to discuss marines and any of their actual or perceived failings, I'm sure there are plenty of other threads.
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The Deathless Host wrote: As far as I can see we are going to get regimental doctrines what do you guys think they will be?
My personal expectations:
Cadians - reroll 1s to hit with lasguns (honestly their so generic that I don't know what to give them)
Catachans - stealth (army wide)
Steel Legion - all transports are assault craft and hatred (orks)
Valhallan Ice warriors - 6+ send in next wave (OP but I soooooooo want that back)
Tallarns - move through cover
I doubt we'd get doctrines, but if we did, I'd actually not go the route about having a doctrine for a specific popular/official regiment. Not all Valhallans, for example, are about piling more bodies on the enemy. Not all Tallarns are on foot (in fact, they are one of the most mechanized and talented tank regiments in the Imperium), and Cadians do a bit of everything.
If doctrines were to happen (if I was writing, for example), I'd pick a regiment style or composition. So, off the top of my head as examples, I'd have doctrines for; Light Infantry, Grenadiers, Mechanized Infantry, Armoured Company, Siege Regiment, and Airborne Regiment. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones, but that's neither here nor there. That way, if you want to play a Cadian army, you can run them as a Kasrkin force, or as a tank army, or as a siege company without being pigeon-holed into a singular aspect of your regiment's skill set.
Oh yes I know that all regiments are unique but GW is more likely to make doctrines for each specific product line. Rather than more general regimental types.
Free chimeras for a full infantry platoon (50 inf) wouldnt hurt either. The SM gets it, so why not AM?
Because free units is terribad design, and the Marines have to take a whole damn SM company.
So what? An entire platoon is just as many models as a SM company and far less efficient for the points cost.
I like the IG, and would like them to actually be viable, but 10 IG and a Chimera for 50 points is a bit far.
Except the Chimera should be 45 to 50 points anyway. and Chimeras are hardly the best in their line. Under the current rules any basic Infantry unit baring Imperial Guard that get on their flank can shoot them and wreck them with their basic small arms. BS 3 heavy weapons have terrible accuracy and the only ones likely to hit are the Heavy Flamers..... Which require you to get right up to the enemy to use.
I agree that free chimeras for infantry squads would probably be too far. But, I'll also say that free Razorbacks are a lot better than free Chimeras - as the former can actually take useful weapons. Being able to spam TL Lascannons, Lascannons and TL Plasmaguns, and TL Assault Cannons is infinitely more useful than being able to spam BS3 Heavy Bolters and BS3 Multilasers.
Although I think the bigger issue is that it wouldn't take many platoons before your deployment zone is gridlocked with chimeras.
The primary idea of Long Range Penetration is that raiding action will disrupts enemy operations, supply lines, and leave enemy front lines more susceptible to blocking actions during an offensive. Either you let them continue harrying your supplies and attacking you where you are tactically disadvantaged, or divert additional resources in order to find them and take them out; which leaves your front lines in a weaker position. The primary advantage is that a group such as this can operate and maneuver in terrain that would be unsuitable, or disadvantageous to conventional forces. Most vehicles are not able to perform well at all within the environments that a LRP would operate. The problem is that I need concentrated firepower on the tactical level when strategically LRPs are generally vastly outnumbered in every other logistical metric. I don't want to restrict my opponents on what they can take, but a LRP chooses its engagements and it makes no sense to fight large, brutish, or otherwise unwieldy enemies in the confines of the tactical and strategical doctrines.
By the sounds of it you want a new deathworld codex, which by all accounts the catachan codex was seeing it could be used for any style of deathworld, not just jungle.
The primary idea of Long Range Penetration is that raiding action will disrupts enemy operations, supply lines, and leave enemy front lines more susceptible to blocking actions during an offensive. Either you let them continue harrying your supplies and attacking you where you are tactically disadvantaged, or divert additional resources in order to find them and take them out; which leaves your front lines in a weaker position. The primary advantage is that a group such as this can operate and maneuver in terrain that would be unsuitable, or disadvantageous to conventional forces. Most vehicles are not able to perform well at all within the environments that a LRP would operate. The problem is that I need concentrated firepower on the tactical level when strategically LRPs are generally vastly outnumbered in every other logistical metric. I don't want to restrict my opponents on what they can take, but a LRP chooses its engagements and it makes no sense to fight large, brutish, or otherwise unwieldy enemies in the confines of the tactical and strategical doctrines.
By the sounds of it you want a new deathworld codex, which by all accounts the catachan codex was seeing it could be used for any style of deathworld, not just jungle.
While their home world is not a deathworld, the overall terrain is very similar to catachan (except everything isn't trying to kill you). Imagine the Appalachian mountain range, deciduous forests, pine forests, Endor, and other temperate green zones with dense foilage. Plant, fungi, and other non-animal organisms (no not amoebae and bacteria) grow at a ridiculous rate due to the sun's unique radiation (or some other hand wave non-scientific bs) causing virtually the entire planet to be forest.
Due to the growth rate plants can be farmed very quickly. The only real limit on production is manpower. While the growth rate is a boon in agriculture, it is a burden elsewhere. Roads cannot be maintained because they are reclaimed by nature within a years end. Aircraft and walkers must be used as a means of transportation instead. With the entire planet outside of settlements, essentially being wilderness it gives outlaws and heretics places to hide. These dissidents and traitors generally grow illicit drug producing plants as a means of funding their operations. The local PDF is constantly seeking out contraband and those that produce it.
The munitorum does not require official regiments to be levied from the planet because Arkan can better serve the imperium through agricultural production. Seeking a way to serve the greater imperium at large, veterans of the PDF sought official leave from their duties. The governor himself signed for each individual granting them leave and the ability to form a volunteer group, that due to its unique structure can operate outside of the bureaucratic red tape of the munitorum and other political entities.
I have never seen the death world book but If it is anything like what you are saying, then I would certainly like another.
Really? 10 IG are only really worth maybe 40 pts, and the Chimera's HBs are worth 10 pts, at best.
That's why I advocate all weapon upgrades in a Company to be free.
I think free weapon upgrades would be better than free chimeras.
Of course it is. Nearly every IG unit takes weapon upgrades. Only Mech IG takes Chimeras. Weapon upgrades are both more flexible and more thematic for most players.
Up to three free Flammenwerfers/Plasmaguns/Meltaguns per 10 men?
I'll bite. Though, gotta bear in mind, that's 15-45 extra points per IG squad we're getting for free, at current costing. Though, admittedly, they're worth about half their current costs anyway, due to expendability and reduced BS.
the IG needs flexability, they also need a strong back bone...they are the brunt of imperial forces, yet they got expensive crap units, no real gimmicks(the lame orders don't count). I'm not expecting space marine type units or things but gak they can't even gunline it without getting their colon expanded by bottom tier armys. I tried so many angles to try and squeeze wins, the blob, mobile mech..i think a price reduction with the addition of formations that actually make sense and represent the faction would be a huge increase. I like most other IG players(i'm assuming) liked the challenge of squeeshy troops backed by heavy armor, but hell even in the current state of the game a leman can get trashed in a heart beat.
Sledgehammer wrote: I have never seen the death world book but If it is anything like what you are saying, then I would certainly like another.
The Catachan Codex for all intensive purposes was a deathworld dex. You could replace the jungle with desert, ruins, forests, swamps etc. Then again even to use the normal jungle type the rules at the time was you had to ask your opponent if you were allowed to use the force.
At the end of the day everything got a 6+ armour save but a 1+ cover save in their specific types of cover. Moved through terrain easier, added some jungle fighting rules, made it harder for the enemy to see you, easier for you to see them. Booby traps which you brought like units, but deployed in a unique way.
Basically reduced the variety of your force, gave you the option of having some specialized CC guard infantry, made it a footslogger force, and ties the enemies hands behind their back.
Selym wrote: Up to three free Flammenwerfers/Plasmaguns/Meltaguns per 10 men?
I'll bite. Though, gotta bear in mind, that's 15-45 extra points per IG squad we're getting for free, at current costing. Though, admittedly, they're worth about half their current costs anyway, due to expendability and reduced BS.
FREE weapon upgrades on the Sgt, FREE Heavy & FREE Special - you could potentially see Sgts with BS3 PP & WS3 S3 PF, for example, plus BS3 Lascannon. Not to mention BS3 Lascannon HWTs, along with BS3 all-Plas SWTs. Simply because those upgrades become FREE, which makes them automatically playable.
Also, need to offer Chimeras to the HWTs and SWTs for the Mech Platoons. Tho a Transport 6 Chimera variant with an upgraded Turret Gun (ML / Autocannon) would be very fair for CCS / PCS / HWT / SWT.
How about that 1 LR could join infrantry squad ? (1 tank to 10 guardsman) Guardsman would give it a constant cover (or vice versa) and tank could overwatch if charged (whole squad) and mayby fire sponsors into its own melee fight ? (with possibility of hitting own men in case of a miss)
Additionally every guardsman unit with vox and who disn't receivr any order this turn could act as a spotter for artillery (all or just one spotter per 1 artillery unit)?
eciu wrote: How about that 1 LR could join infrantry squad ? (1 tank to 10 guardsman) Guardsman would give it a constant cover (or vice versa) and tank could overwatch if charged (whole squad) and mayby fire sponsors into its own melee fight ? (with possibility of hitting own men in case of a miss)
Additionally every guardsman unit with vox and who disn't receivr any order this turn could act as a spotter for artillery (all or just one spotter per 1 artillery unit)?
So a free 150 point tank for every 50 point unit of 10 men?
eciu wrote: How about that 1 LR could join infrantry squad ? (1 tank to 10 guardsman) Guardsman would give it a constant cover (or vice versa) and tank could overwatch if charged (whole squad) and mayby fire sponsors into its own melee fight ? (with possibility of hitting own men in case of a miss)
eciu wrote: How about that 1 LR could join infrantry squad ? (1 tank to 10 guardsman) Guardsman would give it a constant cover (or vice versa) and tank could overwatch if charged (whole squad) and mayby fire sponsors into its own melee fight ? (with possibility of hitting own men in case of a miss)
Additionally every guardsman unit with vox and who disn't receivr any order this turn could act as a spotter for artillery (all or just one spotter per 1 artillery unit)?
So a free 150 point tank for every 50 point unit of 10 men?
Das Cheeze.
No, no! You have to pay for it Its just that squad can move with it and get some more help.
eciu wrote: How about that 1 LR could join infrantry squad ? (1 tank to 10 guardsman) Guardsman would give it a constant cover (or vice versa) and tank could overwatch if charged (whole squad) and mayby fire sponsors into its own melee fight ? (with possibility of hitting own men in case of a miss)
Seems like a nightmare in terms of rules.
In case of miss roll 4+ to check if own men got hit. If so proceed accordingly.
While the Leman Russ with desant infantry around it is an interesting idea, I think its more suited for a smaller skirmish game.
What we need is some fix across the entire army, and that would need to either give us alot (ALOT) of upgrades for free, or a pure reduction in points. What we will get instead is rules for superheavy baneblades of course.
Anyway, where is all our formations? Shouldnt we have catachans, vostroyans etc?
If Heavy Flamers were 5 pts for the pair, or bundled into the base cost of a Leman Russ, they'd be OK - you'd take them because they cost basically nothing.
Wargear: Smoke Launchers Heavy Bolter Hull Battlecannon
Special Rules: Lumbering Behemoth (Ignore shooting penalty for Ordnance) Fuel Guzzler (Fumes from the engine give a permanent +1 to cover, with a 6+ cover as standard)
So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Vox caster...why do they not have unlimited range? Are they using a fisher price walky talky or something? I have a hard time believing that in the 40th millennium that they do not even have basic/primitive radio equipment.
Why are rough riders just total garbage?
Why are Stormtroopers anti-MEQ hunters when they are supposed to be elite shock troops?
Why is the point cost of basically everything in the codex 20-30% higher than it should be?
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Vox caster...why do they not have unlimited range? Are they using a fisher price walky talky or something? I have a hard time believing that in the 40th millennium that they do not even have basic/primitive radio equipment.
Why are rough riders just total garbage?
Why are Stormtroopers anti-MEQ hunters when they are supposed to be elite shock troops?
Why is the point cost of basically everything in the codex 20-30% higher than it should be?
They tried to make the AM codex a fun and tactical one where you had to use orders to make your units good and have some synergy. It all failed when they opened up the goody chests for the other factions, and made vendettas sick good just to sell them.
But to fix the astra militarum? Wont be easy. I think they should be given lots of equipment, as they are the well equipped IoM after all.
triplegrim wrote: They tried to make the AM codex a fun and tactical one where you had to use orders to make your units good and have some synergy. It all failed when they opened up the goody chests for the other factions, and made vendettas sick good just to sell them.
But to fix the astra militarum? Wont be easy. I think they should be given lots of equipment, as they are the well equipped IoM after all.
Also doctrines would be nice.
Ironically cutting the price on most units and all weapons upgrades and bringing back the Lumbering Behemoth special rule would go a long way to fixing our codex.
But of course we might then have a chance to start competing with the Space Marines and we cant have that can we?
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Tbh seeing the current Guard dex was made with 7th in mind, I bet we'll be the very last faction to receive a 7th edition codex... if we get one at all.
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Tbh seeing the current Guard dex was made with 7th in mind, I bet we'll be the very last faction to receive a 7th edition codex... if we get one at all.
Ahahahahahaha...... Wait, you where joking right?
This heap of trash is most certainly not a 7th level codex. It is just plain bad. Hell, it feels almost like a nerf from the previous one.
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Tbh seeing the current Guard dex was made with 7th in mind, I bet we'll be the very last faction to receive a 7th edition codex... if we get one at all.
If it were made with 7th in mind, that's news to me, as it's got no aspects of any 7E book, and seems identical in formatting and offerings to all other 6E books, with balance changes largely built around 5E issues
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Vox caster...why do they not have unlimited range? Are they using a fisher price walky talky or something? I have a hard time believing that in the 40th millennium that they do not even have basic/primitive radio equipment.
Why are rough riders just total garbage?
Why are Stormtroopers anti-MEQ hunters when they are supposed to be elite shock troops?
Why is the point cost of basically everything in the codex 20-30% higher than it should be?
I think giving everyone the entire order tree, and having CCS auto pass and PCS have to roll for it would be strong, as you would be getting much more access to the good orders.
Formations will make it in as a way to differentiate regiments, almost certainly.
I see a send in the next wave mechanic to be inevitable since it is thematic, powerful, and requires you to buy more models. I wouldn't be suprised if the super formation even allowed vehicles to respawn.
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Vox caster...why do they not have unlimited range? Are they using a fisher price walky talky or something? I have a hard time believing that in the 40th millennium that they do not even have basic/primitive radio equipment.
Why are rough riders just total garbage?
Why are Stormtroopers anti-MEQ hunters when they are supposed to be elite shock troops?
Why is the point cost of basically everything in the codex 20-30% higher than it should be?
I think giving everyone the entire order tree, and having CCS auto pass and PCS have to roll for it would be strong, as you would be getting much more access to the good orders.
Formations will make it in as a way to differentiate regiments, almost certainly.
I see a send in the next wave mechanic to be inevitable since it is thematic, powerful, and requires you to buy more models. I wouldn't be suprised if the super formation even allowed vehicles to respawn.
You see my one objection to having to roll for orders is that no other army out there has to roll to get its own unique abilities off.
But we do.
All the damn time.
Why?
Why should the Guard players be the only ones having to rely upon chance to get their special abilities and strengths off?
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Vox caster...why do they not have unlimited range? Are they using a fisher price walky talky or something? I have a hard time believing that in the 40th millennium that they do not even have basic/primitive radio equipment.
Why are rough riders just total garbage?
Why are Stormtroopers anti-MEQ hunters when they are supposed to be elite shock troops?
Why is the point cost of basically everything in the codex 20-30% higher than it should be?
I think giving everyone the entire order tree, and having CCS auto pass and PCS have to roll for it would be strong, as you would be getting much more access to the good orders.
Formations will make it in as a way to differentiate regiments, almost certainly.
I see a send in the next wave mechanic to be inevitable since it is thematic, powerful, and requires you to buy more models. I wouldn't be suprised if the super formation even allowed vehicles to respawn.
You see my one objection to having to roll for orders is that no other army out there has to roll to get its own unique abilities off.
But we do.
All the damn time.
Why?
Why should the Guard players be the only ones having to rely upon chance to get their special abilities and strengths off?
I'd like to point out psyker-based armies.
But the reason we need to roll, is because the IG are all incompetent buffoons, and random = fun.
We've just not been Forging The Narrative hard enough.
Not entirely. For example, chaos has to roll to get their boons, and that can be a fiasco. Same with the rein of chaos table. Taus thing is the markerlight, which of course must roll to hit. Orks have to contend with the mob rule. I get your meaning but I think having it be automatic for the captain eliminates your complaint, since there is no more chance. It's automatic. But now, PCS can also contribute, although it isn't automatic
Cadian shock troopers. Trained from birth to be a soldier. Only hits 50% of the time and has a roughly 30% chance of failing to understand their orders.
I think this whole "random everything" thing was a 6E phase that GW went through, where they made a "managerial decision" that as this game is based on a D6, then Random = Fun.
They replaced that with 7E's Buy-Me-Now formation bonuses, and simplifications to over complicated in-codex things.
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed?
Any? As in 1 (or more)? Given that this thread has addressed the entirety of the IG Codex, with multiple fixes for each of the problem units, I think it is safe to assume that GW will at least one of the problem areas actually will be addressed when GW finally gets around to reworking IG.
The tricky bit is... which one(s)?
I think GW will address overall points cost, and we might see some of the chronically overpriced items and/or units drop by 20-30%, although I wouldn't necessarily expect GW to cut prices across the board. Because that isn't how GW does things. But a substantial points reduction would be easy, and GW friendly, simply because lower points means you buy and field substantially more models in a given game at the same (larger) points value. I'd expect the equivalent of a 5-10% points reduction overall, 15-20% if you include the inevitable formation bonus(es).
I don't think GW will address Rough Riders, because GW doesn't have a current model in plastic, so there's no sales incentive to fix it.
GW will address Storms by making them exclusive to the Stormie Codex (but easy Allies, because IoM).
Vox? I doubt GW does anything with it, in the same way that the likely don't do much with Standards.
And the $140+ USD Baneblade 8-in-1 is a sure thing. It's far too profitable for GW to make it Apocalypse-only.
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Baldeagle91 wrote: Tbh seeing the current Guard dex was made with 7th in mind,
The cureent Codex was made for 6E, not 7E.
It may have released after the 7E Rules, but that's only because GW pushed the clock on the 7E rules to make space for the WFB redo.
It may have released after the 7E Rules, but that's only because GW pushed the clock on the 7E rules to make space for the WFB redo.
Wait a sec. It /was/ released after the advent of 7E.
Okay, now I'm pretty damn certain we won't be getting a new codex this edition.
Damn you, dont crush my hopes and dreams
No seriously though, the only thing keeping me playing is the hope that someday soon Gdubs will release a new Imperial Guard codex on par with the top tier ones.
Yes, that's what I said - the current Codex was released after 7E was released. But that doesn't change how the Codex was designed for 6E, and never updated for 7E.
It may have released after the 7E Rules, but that's only because GW pushed the clock on the 7E rules to make space for the WFB redo.
Wait a sec. It /was/ released after the advent of 7E.
Okay, now I'm pretty damn certain we won't be getting a new codex this edition.
Damn you, dont crush my hopes and dreams
No seriously though, the only thing keeping me playing is the hope that someday soon Gdubs will release a new Imperial Guard codex on par with the top tier ones.
I have two bets.
1) GW says to itself "well, we've released a 7E codex for the IG already, so they can wait 'till 8E" (Probably more profitable that way)
2) GW releases another 7E codex, but it is a quickly-written poorly-thought-out failure of a book (and then we have to live out the last of 7E, and good part of 8E with another crap dex)
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JohnHwangDD wrote: Yes, that's what I said - the current Codex was released after 7E was released. But that doesn't change how the Codex was designed for 6E, and never updated for 7E.
I don't deny it was designed for 6E, but the release schedule is something GW is very belligerent about.
TheCustomLime wrote: Cadian shock troopers. Trained from birth to be a soldier. Only hits 50% of the time and has a roughly 30% chance of failing to understand their orders.
That's only 125,000 times more accurate than the actual U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As for orders, turns out that war is loud, scary, and confusing. The radio man has to hear the command over the din of war, the sergeant has to hear the radio man over the gun fire, and the squad has to hear the sergeant. It's not a matter of them failing 30% of the time. The issue is do they receive and act on the order in a timely way, are they under threat from another target, etc.
TheCustomLime wrote: Cadian shock troopers. Trained from birth to be a soldier. Only hits 50% of the time and has a roughly 30% chance of failing to understand their orders.
That's only 125,000 times more accurate than the actual U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As for orders, turns out that war is loud, scary, and confusing. The radio man has to hear the command over the din of war, the sergeant has to hear the radio man over the gun fire, and the squad has to hear the sergeant. It's not a matter of them failing 30% of the time. The issue is do they receive and act on the order in a timely way, are they under threat from another target, etc.
Surely the tabletop is not a literal translation of the events playing out?
While that's a funny statistic, it's mostly meaningless. Most engagements occur at an average distance of 300+m. Entire squads of Platoons are equipped with the sole purpose of suppressive fire with M240's, which fire thousands of rounds combined per minute. Then add in that 95% of all U.S. Army infantry qualify with an M16 and 20% of them qualify expert (36/40) hits.
Special Rules:
Cavalry charge: when charging the unit gains +2 to its initiative and +2 to its strength for the first round of combat. This bonus applies in addition to those given by hunting lances. The bonus to initiative cannot be applied to weapons that have the unwieldy special rule.
Here comes the Calvary: The unit may charge the same turn it comes in from reserves.
Scout
Outflank
Relentless
Options:
May include up to five additional Rough Riders…..11/model
The entire squad may replace its hunting lances with power swords…..20
The Rough Rider sergeant may take melta bombs….5
Up to two rough riders may replace their hunting lance with one item from the special weapons list.
Still an incredibly fragile, expensive unit with mediocre shooting and a situational at best first charge.
They'd be useful for killing MEQ and maybe hunting some of the weaker 3+ MCs, but, what in the codex doesn't already excel at doing that.
Plus, if someone sneezes in their general direction, they'll suffer significant casualties, which would several hamper their ability to even get a charge off or do anything once their in combat.
The ability to charge from reserves helps, but I wouldn't exactly be worried that my opponent spent 11PPM units for a single situationally dependent charge.
I posted way back in this thread what RR need. In short, durability, hitting power (shooting and/or assault), staying power, and a role that either isn't covered, or does it better than any other unit at the expense of being more specialized. But above all, they need value. 11PPM is an obscene cost for a guardsmen that goes fast.
The base cost for a rough rider with no extra wargear (flak and pistol or gun) should be around 7ppm. With appropriate rules and/or wargear, you shouldn't breach 10ppm, and that should include infinite use hunting lance with hit and run and some durability/staying power buffs so they can hit hard, and continue to do damage over a few rounds.
You know, if you wanted them to be for assault only.
I'd much prefer them to be more akin to 'Bike Guard', in the way that many codices have a base troop unit, and then a base troop unit on a bike. RR platoons, tooled as either a mobile shooting platform, or assault unit.
Bring back the praetorian and give them exotic mounts. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Praetorian_Guard Although I think that would be really cool if they did do that I really have nothing to complain about currently.
Special Rules:
Cavalry charge: when charging the unit gains +2 to its initiative and +2 to its strength for the first round of combat. This bonus applies in addition to those given by hunting lances. The bonus to initiative cannot be applied to weapons that have the unwieldy special rule.
Here comes the Calvary: The unit may charge the same turn it comes in from reserves.
Scout
Outflank
Relentless
Options:
May include up to five additional Rough Riders…..11/model
The entire squad may replace its hunting lances with power swords…..20
The Rough Rider sergeant may take melta bombs….5
Up to two rough riders may replace their hunting lance with one item from the special weapons list.
Blacksails wrote: I posted way back in this thread what RR need. In short, durability, hitting power (shooting and/or assault), staying power, and a role that either isn't covered, or does it better than any other unit at the expense of being more specialized. But above all, they need value. 11PPM is an obscene cost for a guardsmen that goes fast.
The base cost for a rough rider with no extra wargear (flak and pistol or gun) should be around 7ppm. With appropriate rules and/or wargear, you shouldn't breach 10ppm, and that should include infinite use hunting lance with hit and run and some durability/staying power buffs so they can hit hard, and continue to do damage over a few rounds
Agreed, although I have a tough time with RRs at 10 pts. If RR cost exactly the same as a regular Guardsmen, or maybe +1 pt for Cavalry, they'd be OK as-is.
I like RR at a 7-8 pts cost - not unlike Veterans, but Cavalry instead of BS4.
In my head, if I was paying 10pts for a RR, it'd have some combination of 2W/T4/5++ or 6++/Carapace armour, plus a few useful special rules like hit and run, and the ability to bring in mounted characters like mounted commissars and priests for buffs.
But a mostly naked RR at 7ppm seems like a good baseline.
I'd like and expect to see formations like the Eldar craftworld one and the Decurion, i.e. a core base of standard AM with lots of choice of add ons with some nice freebie thrown in.
Blacksails wrote: In my head, if I was paying 10pts for a RR, it'd have some combination of 2W/T4/5++ or 6++/Carapace armour, plus a few useful special rules like hit and run, and the ability to bring in mounted characters like mounted commissars and priests for buffs.
But a mostly naked RR at 7ppm seems like a good baseline.
For a whopping 10 points per RR model, I had better get WS4 T4 W2 H&R *and* reusable Lances.
For a whopping 10 points per RR model, I had better get WS4 T4 W2 H&R *and* reusable Lances.
...That's what I'm saying?
The details are debatable, but I don't think anyone will scream 'CHEESE!' with RR were more durable and had reusable lances, in conjunction with H&R and attached priests and gak.
I wasn't sure how many of the above you needed to justify a 10ppm price.
I'm lukewarm on attaching Priests and such - RR cavalry models are tricky enough as it is, and if they have to pay to add models, that's not really helping.
I'd rather a 10-pt model with the "good" statline (WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv 5+; still worse than a SM Scout, marginally competitive with an Ork) than to be forced to justify the unit by adding more expensive chromey models.
Commissar Benny wrote: So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.
Tbh seeing the current Guard dex was made with 7th in mind, I bet we'll be the very last faction to receive a 7th edition codex... if we get one at all.
Ahahahahahaha...... Wait, you where joking right?
This heap of trash is most certainly not a 7th level codex. It is just plain bad. Hell, it feels almost like a nerf from the previous one.
Never said it was a "good" attempt to write a 6th edition codex with 7th in mind I think we can all agree it was a very bad attempt, but you can't really deny they tried to make a 7th dex before it hit with very mediocre/bad results.
Playing my first few 7th battles of over the last few weeks I noticed a few things. Ordnance is far too unreliable for guard, most my kills have came from infantry and orders. Also while I enjoyed my rate of fire increase via FRFSRF, the tau had a similar ability, which with their S5 and AP5 weapons with extra range made firefights reliant on A) Staying out of their line of sight and B)Jumping around corners within 12" with FRFSRF to get an initial advantage. Also it is incredibly hard for us to knock down enemies hull points, and seeing the lack of reliability of Ordnance actually hitting targets, most indirect weapons are much less useful than those (once again Tau) used by other factions.
I think it's quite easy to say, we need possibly FRFSRF buffed in some manner and an increase in effectiveness for out Barrage and Ordnance weapons. I'm thinking maybe expand tank orders to normal commanders with a slight point hike (maybe make it optional?). Ability to issue special orders to artillery units if you have a Master of Ordnance advisor? We also noticed, if the enemy targeted my Company Command Squad fairly early on, while potentially not shooting a more juicy target, like a russ, it was incredibly easy to cripple my heavy support teams.
Everyone else get biker troops nowadays anyway, and what's fluffier:
20 Vets covering for 7-10 tanks
20 Cavalry covering the Tank's flanks, and making counter-charges?
Cavs would be able to keep up and be useful in fluff.
You know what else "would be able to keep up and be useful in fluff"?
Sentinels. Which are already part of Armored Companies to begin with...
Seriously, Rough Riders are a holdover from Rogue Trader.
We're actually starting to see an advancement in some of the aesthetic/design concepts now for much older armies(Space Marines with Centurions for example) and I for one would rather see Rough Riders get axed than have to keep carrying their dead weight in my codex when I could have rules for something else in their place.
Something I like to see but i'm not holding my breath for is a rework of sergeants. It just isn't right that veteran or a stormtrooper has the same ld as a common guardsmen, so raise them ot ld8, but keep sergeants ld8 as well. for ordinary guardsmen squad it is logical that the sergeant task is to maintain order among the men but I can't see that hardend veterans or indoctrinated stormtroopers will have as much issue with that, rather I would like to see veteran/stormtrooper sergeants get squad-orders or combat drills that acts as mini buffs.
Ws 3 / Bs 3 / S 5 / Front 10 / Side 10 / Rear 10 / I 3 / A 1 / HP 2
Wargear:
-Multilaser
-Searchlight
-Sensory Array (Any enemy units within 12" of a sentinel suffers a -1 to its cover save, and loses and becomes unaffected by: Shrouded, Stealth, Invisibility, Infiltrate, Scout)
Special Rules:
-Move Through Cover
-Scout
Options:
-May take from the AM vehicle Equipment List
-May swap the Multilaser for:
Heavy Flamer (0 pts)
Autocannon (5 pts)
Missile Launcher (5 pts)
Plasmacannon (10 pts)
Lascannon (10 pts)
-May upgrade the unit to Armoured Sentinels (5 ppm)
Armored Sentinels are a Chimera, but without Transport or the 2nd gun.
If a Chimera is worth 35-40 pts, then
- Armored Sentinel is worth at most 30-35 pts.
- Scout Sentinel is worth 25-30 pts.
35 pts is too high for a Scout Sentinel. Especially if it isn't ObSec Scoring.
Also, 1-3 is too small. Try 1-5 models per Squadron.
Finally, add this kicker: A Scout Sentinel Squadron consisting of a single Scout Sentinel may take a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport, and deploy via Grav Chute.
If you'd have taken a Valk anyways, why not spend the additional 25pts for a Scout Sentinel, and not compete for the FOC slot?
Unless they allow a sentinel to take a second, permanent (not one-shot) weapon, then they should just be killed off out of the codex. They are walking gun platforms, who can't take more than one gun.
Briancj wrote: Unless they allow a sentinel to take a second, permanent (not one-shot) weapon, then they should just be killed off out of the codex. They are walking gun platforms, who can't take more than one gun.
Alternatively, give them a special rule where they get to fire their weapon twice.
I'm glad sentinels were brought up because yes, their point cost is outrageous. If GW has no plans to buff their statline or rules, then scouts sentinels should be 20-25 pts at most, armored sentinels 30 pts.
Personally I'd like to see them get more survivability or firepower while maintaining their current post cost but hell will probably freeze over before that happens.
TheCustomLime wrote: Cadian shock troopers. Trained from birth to be a soldier. Only hits 50% of the time and has a roughly 30% chance of failing to understand their orders.
That's only 125,000 times more accurate than the actual U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As for orders, turns out that war is loud, scary, and confusing. The radio man has to hear the command over the din of war, the sergeant has to hear the radio man over the gun fire, and the squad has to hear the sergeant. It's not a matter of them failing 30% of the time. The issue is do they receive and act on the order in a timely way, are they under threat from another target, etc.
Surely the tabletop is not a literal translation of the events playing out?
While that's a funny statistic, it's mostly meaningless. Most engagements occur at an average distance of 300+m. Entire squads of Platoons are equipped with the sole purpose of suppressive fire with M240's, which fire thousands of rounds combined per minute. Then add in that 95% of all U.S. Army infantry qualify with an M16 and 20% of them qualify expert (36/40) hits.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Something I like to see but i'm not holding my breath for is a rework of sergeants.
For a reworked MT codex, I raised LD to 8. The Sgt is now free. For +10pts you can buy a LD9 Vet Sgt with the following choices, that buff the squad they're leading:
- Drop Sgt (Rerolls DS scatter & mishaps)
- Drill Sgt (Rerolls wounds with Hotshot weapons in shooting attacks)
- Assault Sgt (WS4/I4, Counterattack, Stubborn)
- Vehicle Sgt (+1BS to Taurox Prime)
I haven't expanded much on the idea but that's the the concept.
master of ordinance wrote: In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.
But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"
IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.
Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.
master of ordinance wrote: In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.
But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"
IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.
Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.
Having spent the last two years playing IG against C:SM (and recently joining C:SM), I can safely say that, compared to IG, C:SM has:
-Better Shooting -Better Assaulting -Better Mobility -Higher Toughness Per Point -Waaay More Freebies -More Vehicles -More Reliable Vehicles -Better Solutions To Tactical Situations -Better Deployment Options -More Efficient Troops -More Viable Units
master of ordinance wrote: In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.
But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"
IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.
Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.
Having spent the last two years playing IG against C:SM (and recently joining C:SM), I can safely say that, compared to IG, C:SM has:
-Better Shooting
-Better Assaulting
-Better Mobility
-Higher Toughness Per Point
-Waaay More Freebies
-More Vehicles
-More Reliable Vehicles
-Better Solutions To Tactical Situations
-Better Deployment Options
-More Efficient Troops
-More Viable Units
But wait, CSM are supposed to be by far the worst MEQ uni-MEQ. Ah. Yes, I see.
master of ordinance wrote: In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.
But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"
IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.
Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.
Having spent the last two years playing IG against C:SM (and recently joining C:SM), I can safely say that, compared to IG, C:SM has:
-Better Shooting
-Better Assaulting
-Better Mobility
-Higher Toughness Per Point
-Waaay More Freebies
-More Vehicles
-More Reliable Vehicles
-Better Solutions To Tactical Situations
-Better Deployment Options
-More Efficient Troops
-More Viable Units
But wait, CSM are supposed to be by far the worst MEQ uni-MEQ. Ah. Yes, I see.
Selym wrote: CSM is flat-out terrible, almost on par with IG
Im not so sure - I made a discovery at my club yesterday. Amidst the vast number of SM, Eldar, GK, SW and DA players there was another IG player, one I have not seen in around 6 months. He runs this amazing Russian themed Valhallan army with Leman Russ converted to look like JS1's, KV2's and the like.
He was facing CSM And he was losing.
*twitch*
That film made me scream. It is about as historically accurate as a Roman vs Celts film with rifles in it.
I don't know, wasn't too bad. I actually really liked the movie, and wasn't bothered by any inaccuracies I found. Not like some of the Ancient Rome and Greece films that have made their way to the theatre.
Unique detachment - greyknight teleportation strikeforce - Librarian w/ lvl.3 mastery, cuirass of sacrifice - Terminators x6 w/ psycannon, daemonhammer - Dreadknight w/ teleporter, heavy psycannon, heavy incinerator
Unique detachment - Knights - Knight Paladin
You know you're hurting when your supplement with allies outperforms your own Codex.
Cool, albeit irrelevant to the topic. This list kinda looks like the list people are throwing around to "prove" Orks are great - it's 50%+ Daemon allies.
Meh, I don't massively struggle fighting C:SM. If you use clever movement you can wipe most squads in a turn of shooting. It's the Vehicles, characters, high toughness and wounds models that I find hard to kill while playing as guard. Now that is fighting any faction, I actually found it incredibly easy to kill light, medium and heavy infantry.
*twitch*
That film made me scream. It is about as historically accurate as a Roman vs Celts film with rifles in it.
Meh bar the Tiger fight (which started off well enough) and the climax at the end it was fairly accurate. The first half of the film was pretty spot on. And this is coming from a guy who has been trying to get gaijin to improve their historical accuracy of vehicles and their weapons for about a year and a half now
master of ordinance wrote: In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.
But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"
IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.
Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.
I can take IG and crush these lists. Surely an IG player can do the same. I can probably kill over 50% of either army before contact with a good IG list. From there's its using sacrificial units and taking advantage of not being able to consolidate into a new combat.
" Russian themed Valhallan army with Leman Russ converted to look like JS1's, KV2's and the like. "
Quit playing themed armies and bring things that work.
master of ordinance wrote: In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.
But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"
IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.
Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.
I can take IG and crush these lists. Surely an IG player can do the same. I can probably kill over 50% of either army before contact with a good IG list. From there's its using sacrificial units and taking advantage of not being able to consolidate into a new combat.
Are you using points values correctly? 'cause that's generally not possible.
SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
That being said, I learned a lot about guard by playing against them a lot in 5th. Even though they are humbled, the basic ideas are still the same.
Quit playing themed armies and bring things that work.
The argument following this one, after a few games, is to quit playing IG and just that things that work. Starting with shifting IG to blob+ multiple wyverns and ending with I may as well take more powerful ally for my army.
Martel732 wrote: SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
That being said, I learned a lot about guard by playing against them a lot in 5th. Even though they are humbled, the basic ideas are still the same.
Tbh I've just been completely unable to hit anything with my russes for quite a while now It's getting a tad frustrating.
Although I have noticed massed flashlights working rather well. Most my opponents still have hangovers units from 6th and as such still have a reasonable amount of mechanised units like marines in rhino's. They jump out, I rush them to get within "12 and generally the next turn the squad I've been shooting at is either running, dead or pretty much unable to hit back.
Martel732 wrote: SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
Really?
My memories of SWs involve nigh-invincible thunderwolves murdering every unit they touch.
Can we not let this devolve into a 'My army sucks more' competition? Before we know, we'll be balls deep in Sisters players reminding us how awful they have it.
There's a thread about marines being overpowered. Take your comparisons elsewhere.
And lol at telling someone to stop playing themed lists. The whole point of this discussion is to come up with ways that themed lists can function in a theoretical new codex.
Frankly, if someone made a 40k-ified IS/KV-2 styled tank (as in, properly scaled, being wider and shorter with proper gubbins), you couldn't get my credit card info faster.
Martel732 wrote:SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
That being said, I learned a lot about guard by playing against them a lot in 5th. Even though they are humbled, the basic ideas are still the same.
Oh how I wish this was true Martel. Oh how I wish I had enough Battlecannons with enough accuracy to deal with the SM squads. How I wish that I could get them for a cheaper price than the mere 150 point chassis that they come on. How I wish that said chassis was more survivable.
The old 5th ed tactics might as well not exist. Tanks have been nerfed to obscurity and other codex's have got better whilst ours got worse. BA have fast moving units, fast moving transports, DS and assault troops. Landraiders are almost unkillable beyond Melta range for your average Guard army.
Blood Angles can get close very easily.
Space Wolves.... That outflanking formation which they can assault from. Need I say any more?
Blacksails wrote:
And lol at telling someone to stop playing themed lists. The whole point of this discussion is to come up with ways that themed lists can function in a theoretical new codex.
Frankly, if someone made a 40k-ified IS/KV-2 styled tank (as in, properly scaled, being wider and shorter with proper gubbins), you couldn't get my credit card info faster.
I will have to ask him where he got the conversion sets from or what parts he used. They are Leman Russ hulls at the base but converted to look awesome.
I laughed at the themed lists bit too. Right now even if I run the most competitive list that I can I still lose out too other players simply because their codex's are that much better than mine. I want to run a themed, fluffy list based on the WW2 armies and I have units assembled and painted up to match (Lee Enfield .303's as Lasguns, Sten Guns as Shotguns, Churchill VII's as LRBT's, etc for my British) but there is little point. A competitive IG list will lose out too a themed SM list.
Vic Minis is doing a Matilda-Russ that is very close in shape to the Matilda we all know and love, but scaled appropriately be just about the same footprint and height as a Russ, while having the standard comically sized cannons.
Seeing as I have not-Mordians, I feel a more British style tank/vehicle is more in keeping with the theme. That said, my next favourite designs would be Russian. I know some companies that produce a KV-2 turret with the 152mm howitzer, but I'd be looking for a hull that looked like the KV-2 but with proper sized MG ports for heavy bolters and other 40k weapons, not to mention being re-sized to fit with 40k's unique vehicle proportions.
I don't expect anyone to make such a complete kit, and further, not a complete line of similar vehicles for arty variants and IVF/APCs that fit the theme, but a man can dream.
In the old (2nd edition) rules Lasguns had a longer range than Boltguns, with Bolters only reaching to 18" as they where seen as a shock assault weapon as opposed to the Lasguns which where seen as a more general purpose rifle.
How about giving Lasguns a 6" range boost to 30", allowing them to function more as the semi automatic long ranged weapons that they are described as being.
Martel732 wrote: SW and BA have advantages that don't much matter against guard. They don't have access to good formations, either.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
Really?
My memories of SWs involve nigh-invincible thunderwolves murdering every unit they touch.
I said for the most part. Yes, TWC is a thing. The only thing keeping SW viable in the current meta.
" BA have fast moving units, fast moving transports, DS and assault troops. Landraiders are almost unkillable beyond Melta range for your average Guard army.
Blood Angles can get close very easily. "
If that were true, I'd be doing it. First off, LR are dead in the current meta. So you don't need to worry unless you let your opponent list tailor. Don't do that. All those fast moving units and transports have poor durability/pt. That's a terrible flaw to have against a list like IG.
If you are worried about outflanking SW, use guardsmen to make it illegal to come in on the board in areas you care about. Guardsmen are cheap. Abuse that fact.
Martel732 wrote: SThey don't have access to good formations, either.
And IG don't have /any/ formations.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
Battlecannons are not the typical loadout anymore, due to everyone else not footspamming their MEQ's.
Martel732 wrote: SThey don't have access to good formations, either.
And IG don't have /any/ formations.
For the most part, they are power armor losers that get instagibbed by battle cannons, so no FNP. BA are actually in serious, serious trouble against IG.
Battlecannons are not the typical loadout anymore, due to everyone else not footspamming their MEQ's.
You only need a couple battle cannon hits and a BA list is done. Obviously, you wouldn't use a ton of battlecannons, but a couple can just swing a battle against meqs.
Well you need a new codex for that, and even then GW can just do some random stupid things, because crazy jervis finds IG too OP in his 20k points games test studio games.
Makumba wrote: Well you need a new codex for that, and even then GW can just do some random stupid things, because crazy jervis finds IG too OP in his 20k points games test studio games.
Well, I think most of us expect random stupid things in the next codex. For the motivated person, this thread is just about the best resource we have to make the best possible Guard fan dex/FAQ/Errata for an official Guard codex.
Every codex has problems. This thread is about IG and their problems and how to fix and improve it.
I have shared my opinion on the problems with the IG in another thread, so I will just copy+paste here:
I think the current problem with the AM is its terribad possible damage output / effective unit durability rate and the strange combined-arms cross-dependency. AM units can't really dish out that much damage before being incapacitated (either by being destroyed completely or losing their truly effective weapons), and while their numbers are supposed to counterbalance this, the fact that you need to take a lot of different stuff in order to make the army work, you will still end up with only a handful of the same units. The best example is the Leman Russ: its firepower... is 'meh' to be honest, though it can still deliver a punch in the right situation - however, it can be eliminated/disabled easily with the right weapons; to minimize the impact of these counters, the AM player has to take blobs (for wrapping), some sort of AA (as the LR can't do jacksh*t against flyers), and maybe a few specialists to say no to the tricksters (like LOS ignoring artillery, fast units to incapacitate long-range AT, stuff like that). Then, of course, you need support for the blob, defense for the AA (probably +1 blob), and support for the specialists - things the LR can't do, so you need moar units. Then, after you have a whole army around your LR(s), you can sit back and pour out that 'meh' shots and wait for the right moment (that either happens or not) so that your LR(s) can really shine.
Any my solution would be:
This is my take on the fundamental problem with the AM Codex. As a solution, I can imagine some sort of army-wide power boost (not point drops), so that individual units can do their stuff without relying on support, or they can support each other well even if there is only 2-3 different types of unit on the battlefield.
I kinda still stick to this. The main problem with the IG codex is cross-dependency (that is not equal to synergy, mind you), and the solution is increasing stand-alone effectiveness. Something like an automatic army-wide bonus-per-turn system like the Canticles of the Cult Mechanicus, replacing the Order System but providing the same bonuses (just more effectively). Or more special/heavy weapons, both in terms of type (lightning guns, heavy flamers, multi-meltas and assault cannons would be cool) and availability. Or 4 HP and a "you fire with whatever weapon you want wherever you want" special rule for the Leman Russ (also, remove Heavy).
Blacksails wrote: Why are we still having a pissing match over who's codex is the worst?
Martel, go complain about BA elsewhere.
Every codex has problems. This thread is about IG and their problems and how to fix and improve it.
You have to understand the problems first. Which evidently many people don't, or meq armies in general wouldn't be considered such a threat. The IG went down the tubes for the same reason that about 1/3 of BA stuff stopped working: vehicles and walkers became second class citizens. There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists. That's the reason for comparisons.
Martel732 wrote: There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists.
Wat.
My Templars are shootier than most IG lists. And at two Land Raiders, are nearly impossible for IG to stop.
I'm talking about the actual guardmen, not the overall list. The problem is that yes, they are glass cannons. Good luck with your two land raiders against other foes. That's a very tailored list against IG, imo. Although I have seen IG lists with a decent amount of melta.
You have to understand the problems first. Which evidently many people don't, or meq armies in general wouldn't be considered such a threat. The IG went down the tubes for the same reason that about 1/3 of BA stuff stopped working: vehicles and walkers became second class citizens. There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists. That's the reason for comparisons.
I'm sure most people here understand the problems quite well.
The fact that another codex was hit for similar reasons isn't really relevant.
Martel732 wrote: There are people complaining about about guardsmen, who can get much denser firepower/pt than most marine lists.
Wat.
My Templars are shootier than most IG lists. And at two Land Raiders, are nearly impossible for IG to stop.
I'm talking about the actual guardmen, not the overall list. The problem is that yes, they are glass cannons. Good luck with your two land raiders against other foes. That's a very tailored list against IG, imo. Although I have seen IG lists with a decent amount of melta.
I haven't had a game against guardsmen in years, but have been playing /as/ guardsmen.
Land Raiders are standard operating procedure of BT, btw. I use them against Smurfs.
Selym wrote: The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.
What if the only reason they're in range of your meltavets is because they just disgorged a bunch of Hammershield Termies or footASMs via Assault Ramp and wrapped your dudes in HtH? What then?
Selym wrote: The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.
What if the only reason they're in range of your meltavets is because they just disgorged a bunch of Hammershield Termies or footASMs via Assault Ramp and wrapped your dudes in HtH? What then?
Are you on the side of SM > IG or IG > SM?
I'm arguing that if the IG is within 12" of a Land Raider, the IG are gonna lose.
Selym wrote: The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.
Not at all.
Care to explain?
I occasionally do test games of my IG models vs my Templar models. I tend to be rather neutral in regards to who wins, and just do straight up dick moves against eachother, to see who takes the battering the best.
IG, when in 12" of a Land Raider at the end of a turn, will lose.
Selym wrote: The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.
Not at all.
Well people Martel is right, we do have the:
Horribly inaccurate Vanquisher which occasionally manages to kill a Rhino per game
Lascannon HWS whom might chip A HP off per turn
Missile HWS whom might chip off less than half a HP per turn
So yes, we do have plenty of AT stuff [/sarcasm]
If we get Veterans that close to a Landraider then the Landraider usually just pops its hatches and throws something so stupidly over powered against us that we might as well not have tried.
Selym wrote: The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.
Not at all.
Well people Martel is right, we do have the:
Horribly inaccurate Vanquisher which occasionally manages to kill a Rhino per game
Lascannon HWS whom might chip A HP off per turn
Missile HWS whom might chip off less than half a HP per turn
So yes, we do have plenty of AT stuff [/sarcasm]
If we get Veterans that close to a Landraider then the Landraider usually just pops its hatches and throws something so stupidly over powered against us that we might as well not have tried.
Usually, LR carry terminators. Which are awful. You don't need to kill the LRs. Just the contents. You can then ignore the LRs. They are a waste of 500 pts. It's almost like I've done that before or something.
It's fine - we'll even things up by counter-assaulting with Ogryns and Rough Riders.
Seriously? I thought I was down on a list. LRs with terminators is one of the easiest things in the game to neuter. That's assuming, of course, they don't immobilize themselves before they get to you. LR are so bad.
Selym wrote: The IG's only reliable anti-armour is melta vets. If they're in firing range of my Land Raiders, you've already lost.
Not at all.
Well people Martel is right, we do have the:
Horribly inaccurate Vanquisher which occasionally manages to kill a Rhino per game
Lascannon HWS whom might chip A HP off per turn
Missile HWS whom might chip off less than half a HP per turn
So yes, we do have plenty of AT stuff [/sarcasm]
If we get Veterans that close to a Landraider then the Landraider usually just pops its hatches and throws something so stupidly over powered against us that we might as well not have tried.
Usually, LR carry terminators. Which are awful. You don't need to kill the LRs. Just the contents. You can then ignore the LRs. They are a waste of 500 pts. It's almost like I've done that before or something.
Hammernators are most certainly not a bad unit. Maybe not totally efficient against IG, but they like to crack tanks.
Try 15 Crusaders and a Melee HQ, however. There is not enough lube for my opponent when I use that.
If you can stop the multi assault then the ig probably just won. The primary problem with any unit in a lr is the assault logic flow. Drive across the board, assault one unit, kill it and then die to shooting the next turn.
Martel732 wrote: If you can stop the multi assault then the ig probably just won. The primary problem with any unit in a lr is the assault logic flow. Drive across the board, assault one unit, kill it and then die to shooting the next turn.
It's like you think that whoever uses assault will just auto lose.
You'd be surprised just how difficult it can be to stop SM units in short range.
Martel732 wrote: If you can stop the multi assault then the ig probably just won. The primary problem with any unit in a lr is the assault logic flow. Drive across the board, assault one unit, kill it and then die to shooting the next turn.
It's like you think that whoever uses assault will just auto lose.
You'd be surprised just how difficult it can be to stop SM units in short range.
Considering mine get stopped all the time, and I stop others all the time that try to assault, I guess I would be surprised. I think assault is an auto lose because I live it. Not being able to consolidate into a new combat just makes it untenable most of the time. The flow is assault, suck up over watch -> win combat -> suck up a real shooting phase -> suck up overwatch again in order to assault. It doesn't take many cycles of this before you run out of army real fast. Especially if the IG player is feeding you 50 pt squads they don't care about.
All this assumes your LRs don't get stuck on the way over. I love it when it get stuck on some shrubs. Hey, it's "difficult terrain".
Sheesh Martel, what do you run? I find that dealing with SM forces - even Vanilla SM forces - at short range is a nightmare that quickly results in me losing entire sections in a single turn. Tactical Marines make an utter mockery of my armies veterans and vanilla assault marines make red mush out of even my Company Command Section. Against close assault specialists like Blood Angels I have no chance.
Hell, I have to pray that I can bring enough firepower to bare in the next shooting phase or I am royally fethed sideways in the anus. Overwatch does jackgak, especially when from Lasguns and it is only the occasional lucky Melta shot that does anything to an assaulting opponent. My own assault specialists (Ogryns, Rough Riders) might as well not exist - if they have not been hit by an orbital bombardment and thus neutered already then the Ogryns will, at best, tie my opponents squad up for a few turns whilst my Rough Riders will, assuming that they do not die from overwatch and actually manage to hit anything and have not already been shot up, usually inflict severe casualties before being massacred either by the survivors or by enemy shooting or another squad assaulting them.
I haven't seen anyone win with Orks since that one time in early 6th, when someone tailored.
Orks have an easier time than many CC armies since we actually have widespread access to open topped transports from which to assault with. The Battlewagon Blitz Brigade gives 5 battlewagons scout which means even if you go second you're almost guaranteed to get at least something in combat by turn 2. Things like the Finkin' Cap giving a good likelihood of getting mass infiltrate is another method (hilarious when you infiltrate a green tide formation). Then we have things like Gunwagons that act as a cheap but sturdy option that's in between a trukk and a battlewagon. Throw in other speedy guys like deffkoptas or bikers to soak in some overwatch hits and the Gork's fist of your list can hit home pretty hard.
Martel732 wrote: Especially if the IG player is feeding you 50 pt squads they don't care about.
Everything has a counter. MSU included.
That's true, but the counter is NOT assault units in LRs. LRs kill your model count.
"Sheesh Martel, what do you run?"
It doesn't matter what I run. That's the point. There's nothing in C:BA that any list in the game truly fears. I'd say the same is true for SW, minus TWC, because TWC fits the paradigm of 7th ed assault units. In 7th ed, assault units must be fast, not use transports, and be extremely durable. Any failure to meet one of those criteria disqualifies a unit as a truly effective assault unit in 7th ed.
In the specific match up of IG vs BA, IG has a few ways they can go depending on the list. BA suck at disabling vehicles at range, so guardsmen with specials can hide in Chimeras safely until it is time to jump out and wipe out a crippling amount of BA in a single turn of shooting. Pure infantry lists can rely on the fact that blast weapons are really out of vogue for BA and drown the advancing BA units in shots. And as I mentioned, you only need a couple good battle cannon hits against meqs to eviscerate a typical BA list.
SW are much like BA except that you have to find a way to neutralize the TWC. Getting shots on their 3+ armor units as opposed to the guy with 2+ leading the unit is pretty important for this. This is a harder task for IG, which is why SW are considered a superior codex than BA, who have no effective means to survive the wall of fire coming from a list like IG or Tau. SW can rely upon TWC to either a) get to assault guaranteed or b) soak and inordinate amount of fire.
Note that against both lists, IG players must be proficient at defending pod alpha strikes, but this is actually quite easy since neither list has access to skyhammer.
So again, the problem with the IG is very similar to that of BA. Neither can field or defend against death stars efficiently. Neither have effective formations. BA are better in assault, but I give the advantage to IG in firepower, which is why I think IG is a better 7th ed codex, such that they both are. But these similarities have nothing to do with specific stats of infantry or special rules of marines or any number of things that people point out as being significant differences between guard and meqs in general. The gulf between BA and C:SM show that meqs themselves are victims just like guardsmen in 7th ed. It's all about the access to power units/formations. Either you have them or you don't.
A LR Crusader or Redeemer will happily solve the infantry issue, too. Roll up, disembark, take out the intervening troops. then charge the vehicles. Since many IG players rely on squadroning their vehicles, it is very easy to take out 200-400 points of armour in a single phase, and then just roflstomp the remaining infantry.
Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.
master of ordinance wrote: Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.
No, but I can't assault a unit that's in a Chimera. That poses a problem for your plan. Sadly,the game is far from over once CC contact is made due to being unable to consolidate into a new CC. Savvy guard players can still murder BA even after that point.
Also note that lists like SW can do what you describe with far superior units (TWC) and vanilla marines can just teleport into CC after only suffering overwatch. DA can come after you with crazy jink saves. BA are by far the least competent of meq matchups for IG.
master of ordinance wrote: Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.
No, but I can't assault a unit that's in a Chimera. That poses a problem for your plan. Sadly,the game is far from over once CC contact is made due to being unable to consolidate into a new CC. Savvy guard players can still murder BA even after that point.
In fact, BA is the best to counter Chimera-borne squads in melee as they can surround the tank and choose to wreck it rather than cause an explosion, trapping the transported unit inside and killing it too as the guardsmen can't disembark.
master of ordinance wrote: Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.
No, but I can't assault a unit that's in a Chimera. That poses a problem for your plan. Sadly,the game is far from over once CC contact is made due to being unable to consolidate into a new CC. Savvy guard players can still murder BA even after that point.
In fact, BA is the best to counter Chimera-borne squads in melee as they can surround the tank and choose to wreck it rather than cause an explosion, trapping the transported unit inside and killing it too as the guardsmen can't disembark.
While possible, in practice, you rarely enough models left in a squad to execute that maneuver.
The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.
So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.
Briancj wrote: The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.
So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.
Or what-have-you.
That's one possible fix. Just bringing back lumbering behemoth would help tremendously.
Briancj wrote: The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.
So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.
Or what-have-you.
Eh, I don't think it'd be the best way. Plus, you'd still have to fix the units themselves.
Honestly, formations aren't a bad idea, but the way they're implemented isn't great. If they costed points in addition to the units in the formation, then I'd be happier.
Briancj wrote: The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.
So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.
Or what-have-you.
It'd be flufflier, but there would need to be an option for a Combined Arms formation, for those who like to mix & match.
I say fluffier, because the IG operates in monotype blocks - tank groups, infantry groups, artillery groups etc. Then they get partially merged with eachother to create balanced detachments.
Like in Epic Armageddon, where you get Pure Russ battlegroups, Pure Infantry battlegroups, etc. Each battlegroup can attach a small number of units that would normally have their own battlegroup.
I say fluffier, because the IG operates in monotype blocks - tank groups, infantry groups, artillery groups etc. Then they get partially merged with eachother to create balanced detachments.
Like in Epic Armageddon, where you get Pure Russ battlegroups, Pure Infantry battlegroups, etc. Each battlegroup can attach a small number of units that would normally have their own battlegroup.
So a Decurion-style mega-detachment? Well, if something, the IG is going to receive one of these, that's for sure. Or, if your gaming group is OK with some rulebending, then you can do it even now with the not-so-Apocalypse Formations from the various Warzone books.
I'd say that with the current rules and meta, they could halve the cost of everything expect the vendettas and valkyries, and it would still be tough to beat many armies.
The least we could get is a "buy 2 get 3rd for free".
That being said, I think giving the officers non-random rules, not dependent on dice, would be a good start.
triplegrim wrote: I'd say that with the current rules and meta, they could halve the cost of everything expect the vendettas and valkyries, and it would still be tough to beat many armies.
The least we could get is a "buy 2 get 3rd for free".
That being said, I think giving the officers non-random rules, not dependent on dice, would be a good start.
The effectiveness of the Vendetta is vastly over-estimated and thusly over-costed.
I use around 2 vendettas every game I play, and I can tell you that they are not as versatile as people make them out to be. 6 transportation capacity makes them essentially unusable for transportation. Company command squads and specialist squads are the only truly viable options. When factoring in the opportunity cost of putting those units into the vendetta, the situation becomes even more undesirable as they can be completely wiped out by scattering, are unable to issue orders, and cannot come in until at least turn 2.
Within the current meta, 3 twin linked lascannons do much less damage than most people will admit or realize. Monstrous creatures have more wounds and are not really affected by the strength of the lascannon, as volume of fire is more important in taking them down. AV 14 is increasingly a problem for the IG to deal with as it becomes more ubiquitous. Monoliths, and Land Raiders require 5s to glance and 6s to pen. In order to get an explodes result you would need to hit, then pen with a 6, and then roll an explodes result on the damage table (another 6). The chances of that are much higher than 1 in 36 and are an unreliable way of taking out an enemy vehicle. Take into account that this vehicle can only come on after the 1st turn, and its utility is reduced even more. Its area of expertise is ironically better suited to shooting down other vehicle flyers. All in all I would take an Avenger over a vendetta 1000 times.
triplegrim wrote: I'd say that with the current rules and meta, they could halve the cost of everything expect the vendettas and valkyries, and it would still be tough to beat many armies.
The least we could get is a "buy 2 get 3rd for free".
That being said, I think giving the officers non-random rules, not dependent on dice, would be a good start.
The effectiveness of the Vendetta is vastly over-estimated and thusly over-costed.
I use around 2 vendettas every game I play, and I can tell you that they are not as versatile as people make them out to be. 6 transportation capacity makes them essentially unusable for transportation. Company command squads and specialist squads are the only truly viable options. When factoring in the opportunity cost of putting those units into the vendetta, the situation becomes even more undesirable as they can be completely wiped out by scattering, are unable to issue orders, and cannot come in until at least turn 2.
Within the current meta, 3 twin linked lascannons do much less damage than most people will admit or realize. Monstrous creatures have more wounds and are not really affected by the strength of the lascannon, as volume of fire is more important in taking them down. AV 14 is increasingly a problem for the IG to deal with as it becomes more ubiquitous. Monoliths, and Land Raiders require 5s to glance and 6s to pen. In order to get an explodes result you would need to hit, then pen with a 6, and then roll an explodes result on the damage table (another 6). The chances of that are much higher than 1 in 36 and are an unreliable way of taking out an enemy vehicle. Take into account that this vehicle can only come on after the 1st turn, and its utility is reduced even more. Its area of expertise is ironically better suited to shooting down other vehicle flyers. All in all I would take an Avenger over a vendetta 1000 times.
Pretty much. I was advised to get some Vendettas for my army after my last game saw me stomped by a Grey Knights player whom used the Nemesis formation in a 1.5K game and dropped a Stormraven, 2 5 man Paladin squads, a chaptermaster (or whatever he is called), a inquisitor and some power armoured dudes on my flank and a Dreadknight on my other. After he had stomped me another player commented that I may just need to get some flyers.
Whilst I agreed with him the prospect of a stupidly pricey unit with only 3 TL Lascannons and BS 3 does not really appeal to me, although the chassis is at least survivable owing to it being a flyer.
But look at it:
You are paying through your nose to get what is essentially a lightly armoured flyer with rubbish ballistics skill and only three highly dubious weapons to show for itself. Not what I would call a useful vehicle.
Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?
They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.
The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS - Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)
You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?
They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.
The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS - Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)
You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering
Thoughts?
The Vendetta is still terrible for what it is and what it costs but the Dark Eldar unit is even worse :/
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?
They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.
The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS - Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)
You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering
Thoughts?
The fact that the Vendetta isn't in on the first turn, and possibly not until turn 4, is what keeps me from typically fielding them, and when I do, keeps me from fielding anything less than 3 (and usually not in friendly games). That is such a huge downside for a unit like that in the IG army that, no matter how otherwise powerful it might be, will always make you think twice about taking it. At least from my perspective.
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?
They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.
The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS - Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)
You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering
Thoughts?
The fact that the Vendetta isn't in on the first turn, and possibly not until turn 4, is what keeps me from typically fielding them, and when I do, keeps me from fielding anything less than 3 (and usually not in friendly games). That is such a huge downside for a unit like that in the IG army that, no matter how otherwise powerful it might be, will always make you think twice about taking it. At least from my perspective.
Adding in a Master of the Fleet gets you a +1 on the roll but at the cost of not forcing a -1 on your opponent.
I've recently been playing Space Wolves and my is it refreshing after playing IG. I can actually win games without the need for ally shenanigans or sheer luck of the dice rolls...
I may have to shelve the guard for a while until they see their new codex (whenever the hell that may be).
The answer is the same for mine and your question.
The answer to power creep isn't more power creep. Just make the unit functional, not necessarily on the same or above the power level of [commonly considered overpowered unit]. Vanqs need two things; the ability to reliably hit something, and the ability to reliably deal damage once it hits.
The first is simple. Co-ax weapons as per ABG from FW, and/or the ability to have BS4 tanks through tank commanders, HQ tanks, commissar tanks, etc..
The second is less simple, but still manageable. Vanqs vs. vehicles is reasonable in that it will generally pen, but AP2 hurts the ability to reliably put the vehicle out to pasture. Bumping that to AP1 would do the trick nicely. Finally, its ability to deal with MCs isn't great, so adding the Beast Hunter shells from ABG would solve that problem nicely.
Special shells for the Vanquisher Battle Cannon that cause Instant Death and I think they also have Fleshbane (and are AP2 of course). They can one-shot any MC no problem.
Allows you to fire an alternate shell from a Vanquisher that's Range: 72", S8, AP2, Blast, Instant Death as a 15pt upgrade. Only Company Command and Commisaar Tanks in the Armoured Battle Group list can take them though.
Making the Vanquisher AP0 like Fire Dragons would be best
Loathe as I am to use formations as some sort of balancing mechanic, I'd only really approve of AP0 if you took three Vanqs and/or you were shooting at GCs/Superheavies.
Special shells for the Vanquisher Battle Cannon that cause Instant Death and I think they also have Fleshbane (and are AP2 of course). They can one-shot any MC no problem.
Makumba wrote: How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.
Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.
And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?
Makumba wrote: How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.
Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.
And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?
The Baneblade variant upgrades and DKoK. Eye candy etc.
Makumba wrote: How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.
Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.
And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?
The Baneblade variant upgrades and DKoK. Eye candy etc.
How about making the Baneblade variants cheaper (as in around 260 points - that new Tau dickery monster is only 360 and it can fire all its guns twice if it does not move) and making the model itself cheaper. Also just make our units better.
How would you guys feel about making hellguns (or hotshot lasguns *shudder*) 24"?
Also don't some meta's tourneys ban superheavies and the like? I don't really think they need SH's in the core dex.... I would be interested seeing more FW flyers in the core dex though. Maybe some of the Non-SHFW vehicle?
Otto Weston wrote: We need something that's subtle and yet suits the fluff of the Imperial Guard.
I suggest that every squad, no matter which one; Heavy Weapons, Veterans, Special Weapons etc. etc. Can take a medipack as an upgrade.
Atm the Orks have better medical care! They throw a painboy in a bunch of boyz and those guys are cared for more than ours!
Add that to the "everyone gets +1 to cover" rule I invented a while ago, and the IG would be back on par with other armies for durability. At least, on the troopers...
Selym wrote: Hellguns at 24" would be better, but still gak. Really, if you're going to use that sort of thing, it should be a strength 5-6 weapon.
Hrrmh...
Hellguns--24" S4 AP3 Assault 4
Couple that with a special rule/doctrine called "Schola Progenium Training":
A unit with this special rule firing a Hellgun can opt to shut off the safety regulators on their Hellgun's power pack during their Shooting Phase. Until their next Shooting Phase, the Hellgun fires with the following profile:
Overcharged Hellgun--24" S7 AP2 Assault 4, Gets Hot
Bonus? It lets us bring Hellguns back as an option for Hardened Veteran Squads with the Grenadier option, but no Schola Progenium Training--meaning pocket Stormtroopers with a S4 AP3 Assault 4 weapon, but no Overcharge.
Scion Platoons get a VERY distinct upping of their firepower while I get to use my Kasrkin Squads as Hardened Veterans again! Everyone(and by everyone, I mean me) wins!
Additionally I've been having more of a think about Sergeants and Officers, and I've come to the conclusion that they need to be able to purchase Special Weapons for themselves, and that Sergeants/Veteran Sergeants should start with Lasrifle, CCW, Laspistol.
Selym wrote: Hellguns at 24" would be better, but still gak. Really, if you're going to use that sort of thing, it should be a strength 5-6 weapon.
Hrrmh...
Hellguns--24" S4 AP3 Assault 4
Couple that with a special rule/doctrine called "Schola Progenium Training":
A unit with this special rule firing a Hellgun can opt to shut off the safety regulators on their Hellgun's power pack during their Shooting Phase. Until their next Shooting Phase, the Hellgun fires with the following profile:
Overcharged Hellgun--24" S7 AP2 Assault 4, Gets Hot
Bonus? It lets us bring Hellguns back as an option for Hardened Veteran Squads with the Grenadier option, but no Schola Progenium Training--meaning pocket Stormtroopers with a S4 AP3 Assault 4 weapon, but no Overcharge.
Scion Platoons get a VERY distinct upping of their firepower while I get to use my Kasrkin Squads as Hardened Veterans again! Everyone(and by everyone, I mean me) wins!
Additionally I've been having more of a think about Sergeants and Officers, and I've come to the conclusion that they need to be able to purchase Special Weapons for themselves, and that Sergeants/Veteran Sergeants should start with Lasrifle, CCW, Laspistol.
Provided the Storm Troopers stayed at 14 PPM this would actually make me think about taking them again
Baldeagle91 wrote: Yeah that "Schola Progenium Training" rule is a tad OTT... Maybe make it get hot on a 1-2 and unable to fire the next turn?
For the points you pay on Scions compared to a Veteran?
They kinda need something "OTT".
A Scion is fully twice the points of a Veteran gaining nothing but Carapace Armor, Hellguns, Krak Grenades, Deep Strike, and Move Through Cover--and a Scion Squad is starting off with half the size of a Veteran Squad for 10 more points before adding in anything more.
Realistically, a Scion Squad should be 10 models for 70 points. They overpriced the heck out of their Hellguns, their Carapace Armor, and the skills DS/MTC.
Instead this is the comparison right now:
10 man Veteran Squad with Carapace Armor and Krak Grenades? 85 points.
We can throw in Demolitions to give the whole squad Melta Bombs and one guy gets a Demo Charge in addition to whatever else he's carrying(like...Meltaguns, maybe?) and bring that squad up to 115 points.
10 man Scion Squad:
130 points.
That's a 15 point difference for Deep Strike and Move Through Cover.
At this juncture? We might as well just remove Deep Strike as a special rule and tie it to purchasing the squad a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport.
And sure, it's crazy for 40 BS4 plasma shots at 24"...but it's 40 BS4 plasma shots on a unit that has no access to FNP and are 1W models. If you roll badly, oh man are you in for the worst moment of your game.
Yoyoyo wrote: You lose an average of 3 models, wiseguy
Let me guess - you play Space Marines?
Now, would you still play them if they dropped the armour to 4+, the Toughness, Weapon Skill, Strength and Initiative to 3 and the Leadership to 7 but kept the cost the same?
Yoyoyo wrote: You lose an average of 3 models, wiseguy
Out of a unit of 10, and that's from playing the averages. Now imagine that happening on Overwatch.
Because as I wrote it? It specifically states until your next Shooting Phase--which means that you could theoretically have two rounds of shooting(your Shooting phase and an Overwatch if the unit gets charged) where you lose 3 models each turn.
And realistically, let's not forget that an "average" is just that. The average. Things could go well or horrible.
Selym wrote: How about making IG good with less than £500 worth of stuff on the table.
Then new players wouldn't have to bankrupt themselves.
If I were to field my Tallarn IG as footsloggers at the "standard" 1850 pt level, I think I'd be very comfortably above that 500 GBP level. It'd be kinda nuts, and way too slow.
That's actually a very fair price when you consider that those crappy plastic Cadians are 18 GBP per squad. And if you like Mordians / Vostroyan / Valhallans / ASL, it's only 20.50 GBP per squad, barely 10% more than the plastic. Sure, the Praetorians are long gone, but it's still a hell of a deal if you don't want to be sheep following the herd.
Twin-link these guys and they'll one-shot a Jinking Flyrant without Skyfire.
Well it's not like the Hydra does its job of AA, we might as well have something that can do it!
They will lose 1x model (rounding up!)
Right--with twin linking. How are you getting Twin-Linking?
From Militarum Tempestus Orders, which are exclusive to that book. There is no way to obtain it in Astra Militarum--and truthfully, I do not foresee the MT book continuing to exist.
Additionally, the way to issue said Order is from an HQ slot--and to be able to issue said Order?
The Scion squad has to be 12" away from the Scion Command Squad and pass a LD test, and guess what? Those twin-linked shots are specifically for the duration of the ordered Shooting Attack. So, if you make a "Directed Firestorm Sanctioned!" Order then you are unable to make your actual Shooting Attack--which would mean that you could not perform an Overcharge per the way I wrote it.
And any double 6s rolled, lock you out of Orders for the turn.
master of ordinance wrote: How about making the Baneblade variants cheaper (as in around 260 points - that new Tau dickery monster is only 360 and it can fire all its guns twice if it does not move) and making the model itself cheaper. Also just make our units better.
260 would be too low. The "bad" mono-gun variants should still weigh in at 300+ pts, with the common Baneblade coming in around 350 pts, up to 375. If we just got the BB prices in the right ballpark, they'd be fine.
Oh sweet summer child....there was a time when you could only take 1 Russ per HS slot...
Edit: Well I see you've been here since 2005, so just going along with the power-creep?
Power creep implies that Leman Russes are the same terrifying beast they used to be.
Now, if they fire their cannon? They get penalized firing the remainder of their arsenal.
Now, they are half the points cost of something which is two or three times as survivable because it has no Hull Points.
I dream of a time when Leman Russes blot out the sun, raining doom and gloom upon all tables!
On a more serious note? I'm of the opinion that by starting off with something blatantly ridiculous and overpowering, it can be pared down to something more manageable.
However I'm really thinking that the Scion training might be an interesting little bit to try out.
Cheap? How, by any stretch of the imagination, are they cheap? Sure, they appear to be until you look at their stats and realise that you might as well ally with the Marines and take a Librarian because at least he might just outlast a few stray shots and still be around for when he is needed.
Kanluwen wrote: Right--with twin linking. How are you getting Twin-Linking?
Divination, sherlock...
Alright then, Watson.
Never mind that some people just plain don't use Psykers, right? They must be idiots or not play the army the way you do.
Are you sure you play IG?
You stated "Twin-linked". You did NOT state "have Prescience cast on them". The two have functionally the same effect, but you would not say that using the "Directed Firestorm Sanctioned!" Order is "Using the Prescience Order".
One is a power called "Prescience" which allows rerolls of all failed to Hits and targets a single friendly unit within 12".
The other, "Twin-Linked" is not possible outside of a single Order from the Tempestus book.
But yeah. Forgive me for not knowing off the top of my head you're talking about Prescience, because I never flipping use Psykers. Ever. Not in my fledgling Raptors force, not in my Cadians, and most definitely not in my Skitarii.
master of ordinance wrote: Cheap? How, by any stretch of the imagination, are they cheap? Sure, they appear to be until you look at their stats and realise that you might as well ally with the Marines and take a Librarian because at least he might just outlast a few stray shots and still be around for when he is needed.
Yeah, I'd gladly pay a few extra points and get:
+1WS
+1S
+1T
+1I
+1Ld
- A 3+ Save
- Krak Grenades
- A Psychic Hood
- ATSKNF - Chapter Tactics
Not to mention the option of, you know, actual gear.
Kanluwen, maybe you should learn how Psykers work before asking for 600pts of free plasma guns on a DS unit.
Guard are getting whupped primarily due to the Maelstrom format, they are slow and don't play well to the secondary missions. Vets are easy to wipe off objectives, a massive Infantry blob is easy to tarpit, AV12 means little when you need to expose your sides to score an objective and is assaulted at AV10 anyway, and nothing else in the codex is Objective Secure.
You two don't seem very aware of anything at all except statline and S/AP values
Oh sweet summer child....there was a time when you could only take 1 Russ per HS slot...
Edit: Well I see you've been here since 2005, so just going along with the power-creep?
Power creep implies that Leman Russes are the same terrifying beast they used to be.
Now, if they fire their cannon? They get penalized firing the remainder of their arsenal.
Now, they are half the points cost of something which is two or three times as survivable because it has no Hull Points.
I dream of a time when Leman Russes blot out the sun, raining doom and gloom upon all tables!
On a more serious note? I'm of the opinion that by starting off with something blatantly ridiculous and overpowering, it can be pared down to something more manageable.
However I'm really thinking that the Scion training might be an interesting little bit to try out.
Aye but lumbering behemoth wasn't a thing back then either, or perhaps it needs lumbering behemoth now to keep up with the other codexes.
Then will fight in the shade of our railguns
Aye- floating an idea and, like you said, making something more realistic and manageable out of it. I can see why Guard could have lots of tanks since it goes with their fluff, especialy since Battle Cannons aren't the tank-killer that they used to be. But I guess you've got the Vanquisher for that.
Aye- floating an idea and, like you said, making something more realistic and manageable out of it. I can see why Guard could have lots of tanks since it goes with their fluff, especialy since Battle Cannons aren't the tank-killer that they used to be. But I guess you've got the Vanquisher for that.
The problem is that the Vanquisher will struggle to kill a single Rhino over the course of an average 6 turn game. At least not without some serious assistance from other tank hunting units. The Vanquisher used to be a feared tank hunter. Now it is a joke tank.
Yoyoyo wrote:Kanluwen, maybe you should learn how Psykers work before asking for 600pts of free plasma guns on a DS unit.
Guard are getting whupped primarily due to the Maelstrom format, they are slow and don't play well to the secondary missions. Vets are easy to wipe off objectives, a massive Infantry blob is easy to tarpit, AV12 means little when you need to expose your sides to score an objective and is assaulted at AV10 anyway, and nothing else in the codex is Objective Secure.
You two don't seem very aware of anything at all except statline and S/AP values
Yes, we are suffering from a static codex in a fluid meta but that is not the only issue. Firepower - point for point we pay more for our guns than any other faction. Vehicles - our tanks are a joke. Our psykers - you joking bro?
So, wanting our so called elites whom cost as much as a Marine but are far worse all round than them to actually be useful is not much to ask, no?
Yoyoyo wrote: Maybe you guys should learn how Psykers work before asking for 600pts of free plasma guns on a DS unit.
Yeeeeeeah...I think you need to go back and reread what I posted in a follow-up discussion, Watson.
Kanluwen wrote:At this juncture? We might as well just remove Deep Strike as a special rule and tie it to purchasing the squad a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport.
So yeah. "600 points of free plasma guns"(assuming you don't purchase any special weapons on the squad)...plus in my theoretical, the points cost of a Valkyrie to make it a Deep Striking unit.
Do keep up old chap. Wouldn't want you to miss this!
Guard are getting whupped primarily due to the Maelstrom format, they are slow and don't play well to the secondary missions. Vets are easy to wipe off objectives, a massive Infantry blob is easy to tarpit, AV12 means little when you need to expose your sides to score an objective and is assaulted at AV10 anyway, and nothing else in the codex is Objective Secure.
Guard are getting "whupped" because everything in the book is absurdly overcosted for what it is and it was a copy/paste job from 5th edition.
The book is a joke, and your "insight" is rather charming.
"It's just Maelstrom where things don't work!". Hilarious.
In any regards, if you want to justify 130 points for a 10 man Scion squad? It better be dishing out an impressive amount of damage a turn--even if you're potentially losing 3 guys because of overcharging or whatever.
This next joke of yours is great though.
You two don't seem very aware of anything at all except statline and S/AP values
A C: IG Primaris Psyker with Divination is 75 points for L2.
That's what is the joke.
It's 75 points for a L2 Psyker with a Guard statline.
For 15 points more, I could ally in a level 2 Librarian with a far more impressive statline, even before any upgrades(such as an Auspex, for example, or any kind of Relics/Special Issue Wargear)
For a fifth of the cost of 3 C: IG Primaris Psykers(225 points), I could add a Librarius Conclave of 3 models which can be put into a blob squad for protection. For double the cost of those 3 Psykers, I could add a Librarius Conclave of five L2 Librarians which can be spread out into those blob squads as well.
Maintaining 12" from the other Librarians, you can have a single Librarian from the formation casting all of the Psychic Powers known by each Librarian in the Formation from the comfort of their blob squad bunkers, and harnessing Warp Charge points on a 3+ when within 12" of a single Librarian (or a 2+ if there are 2 or more Librarians from the formation within 12 inches).
And for giggles, I could make them Raven Guard Librarians and then those blob squads are then Shrouded(Shrouded is granted to units based on a single model having it; so...) for the entirety of the first turn of the game.
In any regards, I'm "aware of how Psykers work". At this juncture? I repeat this simple fact:
This book is a 5th edition book, with a new polish.
Aye but lumbering behemoth wasn't a thing back then either, or perhaps it needs lumbering behemoth now to keep up with the other codexes.
Truthfully, the issue comes down to the fact that you pay so much for them compared to other options which have access to more defensive or offensive tools.
Aye- floating an idea and, like you said, making something more realistic and manageable out of it. I can see why Guard could have lots of tanks since it goes with their fluff, especialy since Battle Cannons aren't the tank-killer that they used to be. But I guess you've got the Vanquisher for that.
I wish. At this juncture, it's easier for me to just say screw it and throw meltaguns at enemy armor. The "1" of the various Ordnance/Heavy tanks kind of kills their effectiveness against anything with Hull Points barring lucky shots.
I think a bump to 2 might be in order for most of the anti-armor/monster tanks.
Yoyoyo wrote: Maybe you guys should learn how Psykers work before asking for 600pts of free plasma guns on a DS unit.
Yeeeeeeah...I think you need to go back and reread what I posted in a follow-up discussion, Watson.
Kanluwen wrote:At this juncture? We might as well just remove Deep Strike as a special rule and tie it to purchasing the squad a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport.
So yeah. "600 points of free plasma guns"(assuming you don't purchase any special weapons on the squad)...plus in my theoretical, the points cost of a Valkyrie to make it a Deep Striking unit.
Do keep up old chap. Wouldn't want you to miss this!
Guard are getting whupped primarily due to the Maelstrom format, they are slow and don't play well to the secondary missions. Vets are easy to wipe off objectives, a massive Infantry blob is easy to tarpit, AV12 means little when you need to expose your sides to score an objective and is assaulted at AV10 anyway, and nothing else in the codex is Objective Secure.
Guard are getting "whupped" because everything in the book is absurdly overcosted for what it is and it was a copy/paste job from 5th edition.
The book is a joke, and your "insight" is rather charming.
"It's just Maelstrom where things don't work!". Hilarious.
In any regards, if you want to justify 130 points for a 10 man Scion squad? It better be dishing out an impressive amount of damage a turn--even if you're potentially losing 3 guys because of overcharging or whatever.
This next joke of yours is great though.
You two don't seem very aware of anything at all except statline and S/AP values
A C: IG Primaris Psyker with Divination is 75 points for L2.
That's what is the joke.
It's 75 points for a L2 Psyker with a Guard statline.
For 15 points more, I could ally in a level 2 Librarian with a far more impressive statline, even before any upgrades(such as an Auspex, for example, or any kind of Relics/Special Issue Wargear)
For a fifth of the cost of 3 C: IG Primaris Psykers(225 points), I could add a Librarius Conclave of 3 models which can be put into a blob squad for protection. For double the cost of those 3 Psykers, I could add a Librarius Conclave of five L2 Librarians which can be spread out into those blob squads as well.
Maintaining 12" from the other Librarians, you can have a single Librarian from the formation casting all of the Psychic Powers known by each Librarian in the Formation from the comfort of their blob squad bunkers, and harnessing Warp Charge points on a 3+ when within 12" of a single Librarian (or a 2+ if there are 2 or more Librarians from the formation within 12 inches).
And for giggles, I could make them Raven Guard Librarians and then those blob squads are then Shrouded(Shrouded is granted to units based on a single model having it; so...) for the entirety of the first turn of the game.
In any regards, I'm "aware of how Psykers work". At this juncture? I repeat this simple fact:
This book is a 5th edition book, with a new polish.
Aye but lumbering behemoth wasn't a thing back then either, or perhaps it needs lumbering behemoth now to keep up with the other codexes.
Truthfully, the issue comes down to the fact that you pay so much for them compared to other options which have access to more defensive or offensive tools.
Aye- floating an idea and, like you said, making something more realistic and manageable out of it. I can see why Guard could have lots of tanks since it goes with their fluff, especialy since Battle Cannons aren't the tank-killer that they used to be. But I guess you've got the Vanquisher for that.
I wish. At this juncture, it's easier for me to just say screw it and throw meltaguns at enemy armor. The "1" of the various Ordnance/Heavy tanks kind of kills their effectiveness against anything with Hull Points barring lucky shots.
I think a bump to 2 might be in order for most of the anti-armor/monster tanks.
Day-um. Burn
Have an exalt^
Also, because I posted some of my other ideas in another thread.
Have different regiment tactics that they can choose from with the different ones giving benefits to every infantry model in the detachment.
Some examples of what they could be.
Regiment Tactic #1 an uber zealous regiment
Born to die- all models with this rule ignore negative modifiers to their leadership and may never be swept in combat.
Unrelenting advance- models with this rule add 1" to their move, run, and charge distances.
Regiment Tactic #2 an uber professional regiment
Trained from birth- models with this rule may reroll all to hit rolls with their weapons when firing at a target within half range.
Dead shot- if a model in this detachment with a lasgun type does not move it may opt to instead fire it with the following profile- Range18" s3 ap- Heavy 1, rending.
Regiment tactic #3 penal legion
Limitless numbers- any unit in this detachment that is destroyed is immediately replaced by an identical unit with the same upgrades and models that walks on thecontroimg players board edge.
Redeemed in death-models in this detachment may opt to be swept in combat if the controlling player decides to do so. If this is done then instead of the enemy making a normal consolidation move they must roll a scatter die and 2 d6 to see where their unit moves.
Other fixes include :
Dropping Russ prices by 20pts on most variants.
Dropping price on chimera and taurox by 10pts
They NEED point reductions on alot of their vehicles. Their weapons need to pack more punch, their options for elites and fast attack need to be improved so that they aren't garbage, and their troops need to be able to move around more quickly and actually do some damage.
For me personally, I'm starting to get just a little bit ticked off at people that say the codex is fine. It straight up sucks actually, and thats a problem. A big one.
Yoyoyo wrote: It appears me acknowledging you has dangerously inflated your ego....
I won't make that mistake again!
Nah. I just don't like people who start out antagonistically as you had with the "wiseguy" remark. I fully understood that the rule was a bit crazy to start with, but putting it bluntly?
This book needs some crazy in it.
In any regards, apologies. I didn't see you changed your tone until after I had finished writing that up.
Something along the lines of a fix bayonet charge for platoons would be great too, even if its one use. Or perhaps give the platoon hammer of wrath if there are a fixed number of models in a blob.
50 men charging with bayonets would have some pretty hefty force behind it.
So the IG get to make 50 S3 AP- HoW auto-hit attacks?
Against SM's that's 17 wounds for an extra 5-6 kills on top of the 5-6 kills so that full-strength platoon costing 250+ points should kill an entire 150-pt Tac squad of SMs on the charge.
Awesome, that'll totally solve the IG weakness to assault.
JohnHwangDD wrote: So the IG get to make 50 S3 AP- HoW auto-hit attacks?
Against SM's that's 17 wounds for an extra 5-6 kills on top of the 5-6 kills so that full-strength platoon costing 250+ points should kill an entire 150-pt Tac squad of SMs on the charge.
Awesome, that'll totally solve the IG weakness to assault.
Sounds right to me, if they got no other buffs. Make it a Regimental Doctrine or something.
JohnHwangDD wrote: So the IG get to make 50 S3 AP- HoW auto-hit attacks?
Against SM's that's 17 wounds for an extra 5-6 kills on top of the 5-6 kills so that full-strength platoon costing 250+ points should kill an entire 150-pt Tac squad of SMs on the charge.
Awesome, that'll totally solve the IG weakness to assault.
Yeah this sounds fantastic actually.
Of course me playing CC blob guard has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion... surely
Makumba wrote: How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.
Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.
And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?
People don't play FW here so non. But from what I hear the only "good" way to play IG right now is spam artilery carrieges, with Multi CADinq ally. But what I was thinking about is that hell tank. If it is suppose to drop to under or around 300pts and have multiple D shot weapons to make the tank good, Every IG player would have to buy at least 2. And that would suck.
Ashiraya wrote: I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?
Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...
I agree... some of these suggestions are crazy. If hellguns are gonna be this good why don't marines carry them?
I think hellguns should be R24... as it is the hellgun is one of the very few instances where the next better version of a weapon has a reduced range. Beyond that, the only other thing I consider feasible would be if a more powerful "overcharged" shot came with the "gets hot" rule, you know a "hot-shot".
Alternatively I think it'd also be interesting if "Hellguns" and "Hot-shot Lasguns" were two distinct weapon options to equip Scions... one being the better Strength, the other the better AP variant of the weapon.
Honestly, at this point the question isn't "how to fix IG", it's "do we really want GW to fix IG". Do we really want yet another example of absurd power creep where you're labeled a WAACTFG for using half the options in the codex and the only strategy question is which overpowered formation you're going to abuse? Because that's what "fix IG" means right now. The real fix IG need, which GW is not going to do, is to nerf all of the overpowered idiocy GW has published since the 5th edition IG codex.
Ashiraya wrote: I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?
Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...
It's not too bad. Stormtroopers are a serious glass cannon unit right now, but they don't really even have a cannon. Hellguns at with four shots at STR 4 AP 3 would each kill 1.333 MEQs on average, if you can get close enough to use them, but would die quickly to pretty much any return fire. Compare that to a plasma CCS, where each plasma gunner is killing 1.111 MEQs on average. That's less, but the plasma squad has longer range, kills TEQs just as effectively as MEQs, effortlessly guns down MCs, and can even engage light/medium vehicles if you don't have any better anti-vehicle options. That hellgun buff is probably a little too much for its point cost (at least by sane balance standards, not 7th edition) but it's not that far off for a one-dimensional short range MEQ killer.
Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.
To be fair, with the way things are going now even if IG platoons got squads of 10-50 Wraithknights at 5 points per model it would still be a weak codex by the end of the year...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
aka_mythos wrote: If hellguns are gonna be this good why don't marines carry them?
Because god said so. You know, the same reason why the Imperium does all of those other stupid things that it does.
I had been wanting S5+ Hot-Shot Lasguns over those useless S3 guns for a while. S3 is kinda worthless, whereas S5 starts to make a few things happen, and S6+ makes a lot of stuff happen.
I'd want dual-mode Hot Shot Lasguns:
- high-power 30" S7 AP3 Heavy 1 Gets Hot!
- low-power 24" S5 AP6 Rapid Fire
Against most infantry, S5 guns will do just fine. But sometimes, there's hard targets out there, and for that, you plant your feet and power the thing up to MAX...
Honestly, I'd rather they ditch the marine-killer aspect and lose the AP3 entirely, they're really supposed to be the elite commando and assault units of the Imperial Guard, not "power armor assassins".
Really, Skitarii Vanguard have pretty much exactly the rules I've always wanted Stormtroopers to have, if they were remade in that image, I'd be thrilled. Maybe toss out the CC radiation thing, boost their Ld to 8/9 instead of 7/8, give them WS4 and A2 or pistol/CCW in addition to their Hellgun, make them ~9-10pts, with Furious Charge, and a high-RoF "assault" weapon with an extra spin, give them Infiltrate and Deep Strike instead of Scouts, and maybe they'd be golden, and much better fitting to their fluff.
I don't see why they couldn't have both. Use something akin to the Special Operations rule they used to have where they can pick a kit at list building each with different wargear and special rules, one can be the traditional anti-MEQ set up and another can be for storming entrenched units (and maybe a third for more long range/objective camping).
Edit: Well, Special Operations was done before deployment, but that theoretically might be too powerful.
Ashiraya wrote: I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?
Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...
I'd give Scions AP4, an extra shot, Stealth, and a price drop. There. Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.
And bsck to uselessness they go. We have no need fr non ap3 stormtroopers. The whole point of the unit is to cut down marines.
It was never their point beyond a shoehorned role that is too inflexible. Rapid fire 2/3 S3 AP4 gives them comparable firepower to marines (1 less strength, but better rof and ap) and you guys constantly insist marines are fine or even OP, so what are you complaining about?
The whole 'they are not WK level so they are useless' sentiment is getting tiring. Gaunts, tacticals, shoota boys, noise marines, or kabalite warriors are not killing their points value in enemies every turn. Why should Scions?
Ashiraya wrote: I am seeing some insanity in this thread. 4 shot S4 hellguns? Or even S7 AP2?
Sure, if I get my movie marines as well...
I'd give Scions AP4, an extra shot, Stealth, and a price drop. There. Now you have a middling unit rather than the next Wraithknight.
And bsck to uselessness they go. We have no need fr non ap3 stormtroopers. The whole point of the unit is to cut down marines.
It was never their point beyond a shoehorned role that is too inflexible. Rapid fire 2/3 S3 AP4 gives them comparable firepower to marines (1 less strength, but better rof and ap) and you guys constantly insist marines are fine or even OP, so what are you complaining about?
The whole 'they are not WK level so they are useless' sentiment is getting tiring. Gaunts, tacticals, shoota boys, noise marines, or kabalite warriors are not killing their points value in enemies every turn. Why should Scions?
Oh for god's sake. We're not arguing that anything worse than a WK is useless. The point is that there is nothing that 5-10 guys at Str 3 Ap 4 could do that our current gakky lasgun guys do now. Even if you made them fairly costed, an ap 4 hot shot las is a rather pointless investment.
Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns: At that point they'd be stronger than scatterbikes. Don't you want a reasonable mid tier army rather than one everyone will have to turn down because they don't want a pointless exercise in removing their own models?
Ask long-time Eldar players (not FOTM ones) what they think about having a broken codex.
Selym wrote: Oh for god's sake. We're not arguing that anything worse than a WK is useless. The point is that there is nothing that 5-10 guys at Str 3 Ap 4 could do that our current gakky lasgun guys do now. Even if you made them fairly costed, an ap 4 hot shot las is a rather pointless investment.
They deep strike and infiltrate. They can reach things guardsmen cannot. That is important.
I remember them having some kind of doctrine system from the previous codex, as well, with pinning the first time they shoot or improved DS or the like. That is good too.
Ashiraya wrote: Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns: At that point they'd be stronger than scatterbikes.
You mean aside from the -1T, worse save, not troops, can't move 12", can't flat-out, can't jink, can't assault-jump, worse range, and lose about half their squad to overheats every time they fire.
Yeah, so long as you ignore Gets Hot and virtually every advantage Scatterbikes have, then these would be worse.
Ashiraya wrote: The whole 'they are not WK level so they are useless' sentiment is getting tiring. Gaunts, tacticals, shoota boys, noise marines, or kabalite warriors are not killing their points value in enemies every turn. Why should Scions?
Because they are elites, not troops. Stormtroopers have exactly one role: kill high-value targets at close range. They don't score objectives (no obsec, small and fragile squads), they don't provide long-range support, they don't act as meatshields, and most of the time they don't even get to attack a second target before they're either dead or out of range for the rest of the game. If they aren't killing their point cost each turn for the 1-2 turns they get to shoot then why are you taking them at all?
And TBH, the way the game is right now "Wraithknight level or useless" is a pretty accurate description. It isn't fun losing games and feeling like you have no chance because your opponent's units are just plain better than yours. In the absence of a widely-accepted community "balance patch" to do GW's job for them and bring everything back to 5th edition levels (where stormtroopers would be fine with few/no changes) any unit that isn't blatantly overpowered isn't worth putting on the table. You can't balance the game based around the rare group of players that voluntarily nerfs the worst stuff and makes tactical marines have a role besides "unlock the special formation with 999999 free transports".
Ask long-time Eldar players (not FOTM ones) what they think about having a broken codex.
Which eldar codex was not FoTEdition. Because eldar dominated every edition they had a codex in and offten editions where they didn't have a new codex they dominate too. The only time when they weren't the best army was 5th, and they droped to just good tier, back then.
They deep strike and infiltrate. They can reach things guardsmen cannot. That is important.
They die from looking at them. They don't have jink or range or support psykers eldar have to make units survive. They are also elite and not a troop option that can be spamed at 4-5 man size squads.
Ashiraya wrote: Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns:
Is anyone asking for this? It looks like you're confusing two or three different proposals, giving them more shots (possibly with a small STR boost) or giving them plasma-level stats. I agree that four-shot plasma guns would be pretty stupid, but I don't think anyone is suggesting it.
Don't you want a reasonable mid tier army rather than one everyone will have to turn down because they don't want a pointless exercise in removing their own models?
No, at this point I want the blatantly overpowered one. The mid-tier army means that I might as well not show up for tournaments or pickup games because I have no hope of winning (or even feeling like I'm playing a game instead of just setting up a pretty army display and then rolling dice to see which models I put away first) and I don't know any story-focused players around here. And the way GW is doing stuff now a mid-tier army in late 2015 is going to quickly be garbage-tier as every other codex gets their blatantly overpowered updates.
They deep strike and infiltrate. They can reach things guardsmen cannot. That is important.
They can, but not very well. With their incredibly short range and no accuracy improvement on the scatter dice deep striking is risky at best, and infiltrating usually just hands your opponent a free kill without accomplishing much. The real "reach stuff no other unit can" unit is a CCS in a Vendetta or Elysian vets in a Valkyrie, since you can hold them off the table until they're needed and deploy them with much better precision. And you'll even have better firepower with the CCS or vets, just to add insult to injury.
I remember them having some kind of doctrine system from the previous codex, as well, with pinning the first time they shoot or improved DS or the like. That is good too.
The problem with the doctrine system was that there was one obvious option (re-roll deep strike scatter) and one obvious way to use it (suicide 5-man melta). It was nice to have that option, but the other ones were just fluff, and even when it worked it was kind of underwhelming to have the elite of the elite IG be nothing more than rolling a pair of BS 4 melta shots and then putting the models back in their box. A revised version of it could be useful, but it would have to be a significant change and not just a copy/paste of the old rules.
Ashiraya wrote: Ask yourselves this, people arguing for 4 shot S7 Ap2 hellguns: At that point they'd be stronger than scatterbikes.
You mean aside from the -1T, worse save, not troops, can't move 12", can't flat-out, can't jink, can't assault-jump, worse range, and lose about half their squad to overheats every time they fire.
Yeah, so long as you ignore Gets Hot and virtually every advantage Scatterbikes have, then these would be worse.
Who cares when they DS in and delete 2x or 3x their points on turn 1? 150 pts of Scions would just drop in and kill 300 pts of Marines in one round of shooting (and Gods help you if you're a Terminator or Honour Guard).
Your enemy can't exploit your low toughness if they're tabled.
Is anyone asking for this? It looks like you're confusing two or three different proposals, giving them more shots (possibly with a small STR boost) or giving them plasma-level stats. I agree that four-shot plasma guns would be pretty stupid, but I don't think anyone is suggesting it.
It was a serious suggestion a page or two back, yes.
Selym wrote: Hellguns at 24" would be better, but still gak. Really, if you're going to use that sort of thing, it should be a strength 5-6 weapon.
Hrrmh...
Hellguns--24" S4 AP3 Assault 4
Couple that with a special rule/doctrine called "Schola Progenium Training":
A unit with this special rule firing a Hellgun can opt to shut off the safety regulators on their Hellgun's power pack during their Shooting Phase. Until their next Shooting Phase, the Hellgun fires with the following profile:
Overcharged Hellgun--24" S7 AP2 Assault 4, Gets Hot
Bonus? It lets us bring Hellguns back as an option for Hardened Veteran Squads with the Grenadier option, but no Schola Progenium Training--meaning pocket Stormtroopers with a S4 AP3 Assault 4 weapon, but no Overcharge.
Scion Platoons get a VERY distinct upping of their firepower while I get to use my Kasrkin Squads as Hardened Veterans again! Everyone(and by everyone, I mean me) wins!
Additionally I've been having more of a think about Sergeants and Officers, and I've come to the conclusion that they need to be able to purchase Special Weapons for themselves, and that Sergeants/Veteran Sergeants should start with Lasrifle, CCW, Laspistol.
No, at this point I want the blatantly overpowered one. The mid-tier army means that I might as well not show up for tournaments or pickup games because I have no hope of winning (or even feeling like I'm playing a game instead of just setting up a pretty army display and then rolling dice to see which models I put away first) and I don't know any story-focused players around here. And the way GW is doing stuff now a mid-tier army in late 2015 is going to quickly be garbage-tier as every other codex gets their blatantly overpowered updates.
Which is fair for your meta, but not everyone has it like that. In my opinion it is better to work towards the middle than the top.
They can, but not very well. With their incredibly short range and no accuracy improvement on the scatter dice deep striking is risky at best, and infiltrating usually just hands your opponent a free kill without accomplishing much. The real "reach stuff no other unit can" unit is a CCS in a Vendetta or Elysian vets in a Valkyrie, since you can hold them off the table until they're needed and deploy them with much better precision. And you'll even have better firepower with the CCS or vets, just to add insult to injury.
Internal balance is an issue, which suggests that one needs to adjust more than just Scions to make this work.
The problem with the doctrine system was that there was one obvious option (re-roll deep strike scatter) and one obvious way to use it (suicide 5-man melta). It was nice to have that option, but the other ones were just fluff, and even when it worked it was kind of underwhelming to have the elite of the elite IG be nothing more than rolling a pair of BS 4 melta shots and then putting the models back in their box. A revised version of it could be useful, but it would have to be a significant change and not just a copy/paste of the old rules.
Who cares when they DS in and delete 2x or 3x their points on turn 1? 150 pts of Scions would just drop in and kill 300 pts of Marines in one round of shooting (and Gods help you if you're a Terminator or Honour Guard).
Yep, because most opponents just leave 300pt units in the open with no transport, cover or other defence.
Yep, because most opponents just leave 300pt units in the open with no transport, cover or other defence.
Sure, let's say they are in cover. Now they take 14 unsaved wounds instead of 21.
The squad is still just as dead.
Transports are no concern since your units are so cheap. You can have a squad blast apart their poor Rhino three times over while the next deletes the inhabitants, and in the end it will be, what, a fair trade? You still win. What won't die to massed S7 fire? Land raiders? So it's 'put your entire army in land raiders or enjoy being tabled'? That is still not balanced.
Your 150 pt squad also deletes a Wraithknight per turn, which is pretty funny in and of itself.
I guess that one unit was their entire army then.
Just like the one DSing Scion squad was the entirety of yours.
Transports are no concern since your units are so cheap. You can have a squad blast apart their poor Rhino three times over while the next deletes the inhabitants.
And now you're doubling your points and using 2 elite choices, just to kill 35pts more.
Furthermore, if the Rhino/Razorback or whatever doesn't explode, then you can hide most of the squad behind it. Meaning the other 150pt unit of Scions will have no target (or will only be able to kill a couple of models). Suddenly you've sacrificed 300pts of scions to kill 70pts of Rhinos.
Ashiraya wrote: So it's 'put your entire army in land raiders or enjoy being tabled'? That is still not balanced.
vipoid wrote: Yep. Good thing nothing in the game has stealth, shrouded, jink, rerollable jink etc.
As far as I know, Marines have none of those.
If you are fighting Ravenwing, then sure, but Ravenwing are rather broken.
CSM doesn't have any of that.
And as I am sure Martel will appear at any second to point out, BA doesn't have any of that either.
And now you're doubling your points and using 2 elite choices, just to kill 35pts more.
Furthermore, if the Rhino/Razorback or whatever doesn't explode, then you can hide most of the squad behind it. Meaning the other 150pt unit of Scions will have no target (or will only be able to kill a couple of models). Suddenly you've sacrificed 300pts of scions to kill 70pts of Rhinos.
They're only elites if you don't play C:MT (which would instantly become the #1 codex with the S7 change). In addition, why not deepstrike down a unit behind them as well? By the turn your Scions come in from reserve, the rhino is most likely no longer camping with its rear to the table edge, and with a 24" range they can choose their targets.
Please quote where I said it was balanced.
It deletes infantry faster and cheaper than Scatterbikes ever do. You don't need resilience if there is nothing alive to shoot you back.
To rephrase: If it is 'Put your army in Land Raiders or enjoy getting tabled', then it is still beyond broken.
That's true. I keep forgetting that thing even exists.
Ashiraya wrote: In addition, why not deepstrike down a unit behind them as well? By the turn your Scions come in from reserve, the rhino is most likely no longer camping with its rear to the table edge.
Eh? Even if it's moved forwards, that sounds like a risky deep strike for a unit with no reroll or mishap protection.
It deletes infantry faster and cheaper than Scatterbikes ever do.
But has none of their mobility, resilience etc.
Also, it might delete infantry faster, but you also lose 1/3 of your infantry every time you fire.
Ashiraya wrote: . You don't need resilience if there is nothing alive to shoot you back.
And you can afford to take some losses if your opponent's units kill themselves for you. In the example above, that Scion unit killed a 35pt Rhino and lost 45-60pts from its own unit.
I am aware you never said that, hence I rephrased to make my argument more appropriate.
And yes, grav cannons are also OP and should be nerfed, but you are at least somewhat safe if you don't have a good armour save. That won't save you against mass S7 though.
Selym wrote: We've now devolved into two extremes:
-Stormies should be spehss mehreenz -1, because lol
-Stormies should be massively OP, because lol
The IG players here (Myself and probably Vipoid) don't want either.
I repeat my earlier suggestion about price drop, Stealth, return and rework of doctrines, AP4, and an extra shot.
It will make them Guardsmen, except far more mobile and doing just about everything better (better armour, BS, weapon, cover saves, DS, etc.) which seems to be what Scions should be rather than anti-PA assassins who are brutal against 3+ infantry but fall flat instantly against 4+ or 2+. +1 BS and +1 shot over normal Guardsmen gives them good firepower, comparable to that of Space Marines, and in a more flexible way than just AP3 lasguns.
A great alternative for those who want a more elite army than what normal blobs or even veterans offer.
And yes, grav cannons are also OP and should be nerfed, but you are at least somewhat safe if you don't have a good armour save. That won't save you against mass S7 though.
The thing is, most things in the game these days do have good armour saves. And, when you have 5 AP2 shots with rerolls to-wound, even a 4+ save is enough to doom you. They also don't care about toughness or armour value, and can make any melee or transport vehicle worthless with a single 6.
I repeat my earlier suggestion about price drop, Stealth, return and rework of doctrines, AP4, and an extra shot.
The trouble is, that's not really fixing any of their issues. They're still a glass unit with no cannon to speak of.
In case its not clear, I do agree that an Assault 4 S7 AP2 gun is too much (even with gets hot). However, an Assault 3 S4 AP4 gun just doesn't have any useful role.
I think we do need to edge towards special weapons - maybe letting the entire squad take discounted plasma or meltas (so that we don't have Elites with ferer special weapons than our Troops ).
This is a horrible discussion. Guard firepower derives from artillery, tanks, and massed heavy weapons, not drop troops.
The whole point of a DS troop is to exploit position. They are a force multiplier, not the force.
Some people are trying to rework a finesse unit into a brute force unit. That's why they have inferior firepower and survivability. You're not supposed to brainlesssly smash them into your enemy, you're supposed to exploit assymetry.
If you have an issue, make them better at the latter -- not the former!!!
vipoid wrote: The trouble is, that's not really fixing any of their issues. They're still a glass unit with no cannon to speak of.
In case its not clear, I do agree that an Assault 4 S7 AP2 gun is too much (even with gets hot). However, an Assault 3 S4 AP4 gun just doesn't have any useful role.
I think we do need to edge towards special weapons - maybe letting the entire squad take discounted plasma or meltas (so that we don't have Elites with ferer special weapons than our Troops ).
Well to be fair, with Stealth, they don't really need absurd attack power. Let's say we price them at... 9 ppm? 8? 10? In that ballpark. That's much cheaper than Tactical Marines, so why should they have more firepower?
Well to be fair, with Stealth, they don't really need absurd attack power. Let's say we price them at... 9 ppm? 8? 10? In that ballpark. That's much cheaper than Tactical Marines, so why should they have more firepower?
Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.
Yoyoyo wrote: This is a horrible discussion. Guard firepower derives from artillery, tanks, and massed heavy weapons, not drop troops.
Yeah, how dare those Guard players want drop troops that actually function.
Some people are trying to rework a finesse unit into a brute force unit. That's why they have inferior firepower and survivability. You're not supposed to brainlesssly smash them into your enemy, you're supposed to exploit assymetry.
Hey, kids - when you don't have a coherent argument, just spout a load of gibberish instead.
If you've noticed, they have special rules to help adjust to the different playstyle!
Tempestus guns fire at STR X or Rending, they have one Warlord trait reducing scatter/rerolling reserves, and another extending the range of static Hellguns.
Elysians have a boatload of special rules as well as a different force org.
These guys aren't an IG elite, though!
Vipoid here's a quote for you. "According to Sun Tzu, all warfare is asymmetric because the principle is to exploit an enemy's strength while attacking his weaknesses." Maybe that will help you understand such "gibberish" involved in a wargame.
Yoyoyo wrote: If you've noticed, they have special rules to help adjust to the different playstyle!
If we're going to get snarky...
If you've noticed, the discussion has pointed out repeatedly that these rules are underwhelming and the units that have them doubly so.
Hence the discussion in the first place and the ideas to improve them.
Tempestus guns fire at STR X or Rending, they have one Warlord trait reducing scatter/rerolling reserves, and another extending them range of static Hellguns.
Which, if you've been reading the discussion, is considered to be universally underwhelming, if not outright bad. Also, are you seriously using a random 1/6 outcome as a benefit the army has?
Elysians have a boatload of special rules as well as a different force org.
And are also considered to be underwhelming at best, which, you know, is kind of what's being discussed here. Buffing them and such.
These guys aren't an IG elite, though!
They kind of are though. Stormies certainly are, and drop troop regiments are few and far between while also being smaller and more specialized, on top of generally stricter recruitment and higher standards of training.
Yoyoyo wrote: This is a horrible discussion. Guard firepower derives from artillery, tanks, and massed heavy weapons, not drop troops.
And Space Marine firepower derives from tactical superiority, not throwing Drop Pods full of suicidal Sternguard at a target.
Yet...
The whole point of a DS troop is to exploit position. They are a force multiplier, not the force.
The whole point of a DS troop is to exploit position and to be able to have the firepower to exploit that position.
Some people are trying to rework a finesse unit into a brute force unit. That's why they have inferior firepower and survivability.
Er no. They have "inferior firepower" because the statline for their basic weapon has remained more or less untouched as long as I've been playing Guard. The only change it has seen is going from S3 AP5 in the Doctrines book to being dropped to S3 AP3 in Robin Cruddace's pants-on-head-ridiculous book that saw them go from 10 ppm to 16 ppm for simply including the AP3, the Deep Strike and the "Special Operations" rules(where you picked a mission and it granted a bonus to each Stormtrooper squad).
A finesse unit would reward you for utilizing it in a proper manner. There is nothing finesse about Scions as it stands. It basically is a case of load them up with special weapons and DS them into range, hoping they can take out something worth their points value before they die horribly.
You're not supposed to brainlesssly smash them into your enemy, you're supposed to exploit asymmetry.
If that were the case, they'd still retain Infiltrate. Stormtroopers/Scions were never meant to be simply "drop troops". They were troops that operated ahead of the main line, with no real support from the main infantry body.
Like I said, at this point we might as well just remove Deep Strike from them and try to cut away as much of the fat from the profile as possible.
If you have an issue, make them better at the latter -- not the former!!!
Simply put, "exploiting asymmetry" is not really something a tabletop wargame will be able to properly showcase. Not when we are talking about a unit which actually is on the battlefield--unless we bring back something like the Ranger Sabotage Table that Alaitoc had in the old Craftworlds supplement.
If you've noticed, they have special rules to help adjust to the different playstyle!
Tempestus guns fire at STR X or Rending, they have one Warlord trait reducing scatter/rerolling reserves, and another extending them range of static Hellguns.
Oh goody, if I roll a 4 or a 5 for a Warlord trait, and use two separate Orders on two separate units, and I'm playing Tempestus from their $50 supplement I can have Hellguns that aren't totally awful!
By the by?
Drill Chief's "extending range of static Hellguns" has two caveats: It requires you to be within 12" of the Warlord and not have moved in the preceding Movement phase.
The Grav-Chute Commandos Warlord trait as well is hideously worded.
All friendly units chosen from Codex: Militarum Tempestus reroll failed Reserve Rolls if arriving by Deep Strike. Furthermore, all units in the same platoon as the Warlord only scatter D6" rather than 2D6".
I'll let that wording sink in for a bit.
Elysians have a boatload of special rules as well as a different force org.
These guys aren't an IG elite, though!
Yeah, they're better than an IG Elite choice in many cases.
Blacksails wrote: Hence the discussion in the first place and the ideas to improve them.
This discussion involves people who don't understand the Divination table, who want to put 600pts of free plasma on a 130pt drop unit, who will bemoan the Primaris T3 without mentioning his 5++, bro-fisting 4++ MinPriest buddy or slotless HQ status, who consider DS worthless. who will drown you in quote storms rather than admit a bad idea, who don't understand how 2000 year old principles of war relate to a wargame, and who worst of all lack a sense of humour.
Sorry dude -- it's my bad for getting snarky but I've had it with this thread. No offense meant to the more sensible members here.
vipoid wrote: Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.
The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines. Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.
They're an elite alternative.
I think Bloodbrides are a fitting example, because no one ever uses them either. Much like Scions, they're Elites in name only and have neither the stats nor the weapons to back that up in any meaningful way.
vipoid wrote: Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.
The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines.Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.
They're an elite alternative.
Not really. They're an overpriced "alternative" whose only (partially) redeeming feature is a S3 AP3 weapon and whose only competition for Elite slots, currently, are overpriced Ogryns, overpriced Ratlings, and Wyrdvane Psykers.
vipoid wrote: Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.
The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines.Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.
They're an elite alternative.
Not really. They're an overpriced "alternative" whose only (partially) redeeming feature is a S3 AP3 weapon and whose only competition for Elite slots, currently, are overpriced Ogryns, overpriced Ratlings, and Wyrdvane Psykers.
Bloodbrides are in themselves too weak, but they still reflect my point. They have a job to do, even if they do not do it sufficiently well.
Blacksails wrote: Hence the discussion in the first place and the ideas to improve them.
This discussion involves people who don't understand the Divination table,
Or people who don't bring Psykers. But sure.
who want to put 600pts of free plasma on a 130pt drop unit,
Speaking as the person whose idea that was, I also specifically stated that I want to remove the Deep Strike rule from Scions or tie it to a Valkyrie DT.
So please. Keep talking about people who "don't understand" things like the basic principles of reading.
who will bemoan the Primaris T3 without mentioning his 5++, bro-fisting 4++ MinPriest buddy or slotless HQ status,
who consider DS worthless.
For a T3 4+ save unit that costs how many points?
Yeah. DS is worthless in the Guard book.
who will drown you in quote storms rather than admit a bad idea,
Watson, I would suggest you read back a bit further. I put down that the best way to balance is to start with the patently ridiculous and go down from there.
Don't like the idea? Help refine it instead of just making snarky remarks like you did.
who don't understand how 2000 year old principles of war relate to a wargame,
Oooh, I love where this is going. An appeal to antiquity.
and who worst of all lack a sense of humour.
It's better to seem to have no sense of humor than it is to come blasting out of the gate with snark.
Sorry dude -- it's my bad for getting snarky but I've had it with this thread. No offense meant to the more sensible members here.
Yeah, no.
You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.
Kanluwen wrote: You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.
You come in with your S7 AP2 assault 4 hotshots and you label me as 'resident defender'?
When I see something broken, I will point out that it is, whether it is in an echo chamber or not.
vipoid wrote: Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.
The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines.Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.
They're an elite alternative.
Not really. They're an overpriced "alternative" whose only (partially) redeeming feature is a S3 AP3 weapon and whose only competition for Elite slots, currently, are overpriced Ogryns, overpriced Ratlings, and Wyrdvane Psykers.
Bloodbrides are in themselves too weak, but they still reflect my point. They have a job to do, even if they do not do it sufficiently well.
Look to the Vanguard, then, or Immortals.
Vanguard don't have to compete for Elite slots anymore. A First Company Task Force formation made up of purely Vanguard Squads can bring anywhere from 3 Vanguard Squads to 5 Vanguard Squads, all for the price of a single Auxiliary slot and the matching points(95 points per squad of 5 models without Jump Packs or any upgrades--110 pts per Jump Pack equipped squad of 5 models)
Those Vanguard gain Fear, Fearless, Preferred Enemy against a single nominated unit, and cause enemy units to subtract 2 points of Leadership while within 12" of at least three units from the Formation.
That, mind you, is in addition to any benefit that their Chapter Tactics would give them.
Additionally? Immortals are Troops choices for Necrons. They have been for two iterations of their Codex now. Not sure what context you're trying to really showcase them in, aside from them being a "better" option than Necron Warriors maybe?
Kanluwen wrote: You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.
You come in with your S7 AP2 assault 4 hotshots and you label me as 'resident defender'?
When I see something broken, I will point out that it is, whether it is in an echo chamber or not.
I've seen your posts time and time again about how hard the poor Bolter Marines have it in basically any context where someone has mentioned how underpowered the Lasgun is without once really making an acknowledgement that while yeah, Bolter Marines have a hard time? Their big brothers the Sternguard sure as hell don't have that hard time.
So yeah, I do label you as the "resident defender" of Space Marines.
Kanluwen wrote: You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.
You come in with your S7 AP2 assault 4 hotshots and you label me as 'resident defender'?
When I see something broken, I will point out that it is, whether it is in an echo chamber or not.
on an elite unit that has paper thin armor. When at the same time the basic weapon of choice for marines are grav guns, for eldar melta guns, pseudo rending weapons and str6 multi shot weapons etc. a str 7 4 shot weapon on a unit that dies after the turn it shot, would not break the game.
-We've had arguments for 40 Str 7 Ap 2 shots, which is silly. -We've had arguments for making Stormies even more useless, by giving them Ap4 and a points drop. It may be balanced, but there'd be feth all reason to use them. -We've had arguments that they are fin e as they are. Which can be mathematically proven wrong. -We've had arguments that the IG don't do drop troops (wat).
-----------------------------
Stormtrooper:
*IG statline *4+ Armour Save *Army-wide +1 to cover on all infantry (not vehicles) *Deepstrike *Infiltrate *Frag + Krak grenades *May assault out of Deep Strike and Infiltrate
Hellgun: Range 18" / Str 4 / Ap 3 / Assault 2
Options: -Any Stoormtrooper may take: .......Plasmagun (10 ppm) .......Meltagun (5 ppm) .......Assault Blade Which gives +1 strength, and +1 attack (?? ppm)
*IG statline
*4+ Cover Save
*Army-wide +1 to cover on all infantry (not vehicles)
*Deepstrike
*Infiltrate
*Frag + Krak grenades
*May assault out of Deep Strike and Infiltrate
Hellgun:
Range 18" / Str 4 / Ap 3 / Assault 2
Options:
-Any Stoormtrooper may take:
.......Plasmagun (10 ppm)
.......Meltagun (5 ppm)
.......Assault Blade Which gives +1 strength, and +1 attack (?? ppm)
I could get behind something like that.
My one suggestion though would be to replace 'may assaul out of deep strike' with 'may reroll the deep strike result'.
If any unit should be able to assault out of deep strike... it probably shouldn't be ours.
In contrast, rerolling the deep strike result seems reasonable for an elite unit which will often be packing short-range weapons. Especially when our army lacks stuff like Drop Pods.
My reasoning on the DS thing was that if any army should be re-rolling DS, it shouldn't be the IG. Hammer 'n all.
They're more common and supposedly less elite than Tactical Marines in fluff, minus equipment.
Assaulting out of it made some sense to me, as they're the Royal Marines in spehss.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: Would it need to have Gets Hot as well, do you think?
Kanluwen wrote: Hey there was a "Gets Hot" in that 40 S7 AP2 shots, thankyouverymuch.
True, true
If it was a once-only firing mode that drained the ammunition of the hellguns, it'd probably be more balanced.
Like I said in the follow-on post with SDF Farsight?
I'm of the opinion that game design should start with the patently ridiculous and aim to tone it down gradually. Don't start weak, start strong and see what you can pare down until it gets to be weak.
The point of "draining the ammunition" is an interesting one and reminds me of an old FW Apocalypse book's scenario, wherein it's an army of Defenders(made as a normal army list) versus an army of Attackers consisting of 75% FMCs, GMCs, or MCs and 25% of a "standard" army...
The defender infantry units could fire all of their weapons twice if they stayed still, but if they rolled a 1 or a 2 on the second time they ran out of ammunition for the entirety of the game.
MAYBE we could get this rule for Guard, and a "Resupply Point" rule for Chimera APCs?
So, potentially, a Guard Platoon could be putting out a high amount of firepower but could run out if they do not get within a certain range of a Chimera APC--or something like they have to spend a turn rearming, so can't fire during their next turn?
@ Yoyoyo
Really, you feel that a 4 shot S 4 AP 3 weapon would be massively overpowered and that all we need to do is reduce the points cost and make them AP 4? Wow. Your logic astounds me. Right now I would second going for the most stupidly pants on head overpowered choice there is for our Storm Troops. It is about time the Guard where able to hold their own.
@ Ashiraya
You say that we in the Guard whine about nothing and yet you complain about how bad Bolter Marines are. May I remind you that point for point Bolter Marines are far better than Guardsmen, come with better equipment, have more survivability and superior firepower?
master of ordinance wrote: @ Yoyoyo
Really, you feel that a 4 shot S 4 AP 3 weapon would be massively overpowered and that all we need to do is reduce the points cost and make them AP 4? Wow. Your logic astounds me. Right now I would second going for the most stupidly pants on head overpowered choice there is for our Storm Troops. It is about time the Guard where able to hold their own.
Tbh I think it should stay AP3.... Preferably S4, but all in all I think they "have" to be "24 max range. Main reason all the units they are designed to take on can kill them before they come into range. 24" S4 AP3 Assault 2 wouldn't be too unreasonable would it? Also let them keep frfsrf?
Its just that squad can move with it and get some more help. 
It's getting a tad frustrating.
