I know I want one. Was thinking the Crusader with AGC and RFBC. But now you guys have me thinking other options.
But I think from your discussion that spending 557 pts to have the crusader with AGC, Stormspear, and Thermal Cannon is probably better than spending the 540 on the crusader with the AGC and RFBC
I still feel like all the melee weapons except for the titanic feet are a waste.
My goals would be to have it tie up a side of the field as long as possible and get it into the shoot/charge/melee/fallback/shoot cycle
Jaynen wrote:I know I want one. Was thinking the Crusader with AGC and RFBC. But now you guys have me thinking other options.
But I think from your discussion that spending 557 pts to have the crusader with AGC, Stormspear, and Thermal Cannon is probably better than spending the 540 on the crusader with the AGC and RFBC
I still feel like all the melee weapons except for the titanic feet are a waste.
My goals would be to have it tie up a side of the field as long as possible and get it into the shoot/charge/melee/fallback/shoot cycle
In my opinion, the Stormspear is optional for the TC Crusader. Anyhow, I feel the 550 points can be a bit much; you want to make the opponent's decision-making calculus a bit more difficult by moving those 45 points into another Crawler.
The Feet are really good against everything but high-toughness, high-armor enemies. For this, you want a TC, Krak Missiles, or Gauntlet (which is 5 points to get a much more potent weapon).
Colonel Cross wrote:I have yet to see the RFBC do anything in a game to justify it's point cost. It's just too mediocre and random.
The RFBC is less random than the TC. But that works against its favor. You are spending a lot of points for something that is consistently mediocre, whereas the TC has moments where it absolutely murders hundreds of points in a single round of shooting.
Colonel Cross wrote: I have yet to see the RFBC do anything in a game to justify it's point cost. It's just too mediocre and random.
I mainly use it for the high(ish) strength combined with the chance to get a good amount of shots at things. The high strength means wounding MEQ's easier and rolling 2d6 no matter the target is helpful when you want to pick off the last wounds on a rhino that your 3 cawl buffed neutron lasers Somehow failed to completely kill.
it's probably just a matter of taste for this weapon, as it has it's upsides and downsides like most of the other weapons.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I just run thermal, ironspear Crusader so I don't get punished TOO much if he dies as I use him offensivelly in melee.
Iron...storm? Haha. How is that working for you though? I personally think the weapon is awkward. D6 low strength, low AP shots is very unreliable, especially against the 2 wound targets it's supposed to kill. I see it as essentially an overpriced mortar. Am I wrong?
rvd1ofakind wrote: I just run thermal, ironspear Crusader so I don't get punished TOO much if he dies as I use him offensivelly in melee.
Iron...storm? Haha. How is that working for you though? I personally think the weapon is awkward. D6 low strength, low AP shots is very unreliable, especially against the 2 wound targets it's supposed to kill. I see it as essentially an overpriced mortar. Am I wrong?
You point it at weak low-T units out of LoS that might be holding objectives. It is a very specific weapon for a specific job. Not the best option, but it is so cheap it can be an ok point filler option.
I can't wait to get my Knight(s) built and painted - now that the League I was in is over - and with me as Champion, no less! - I will have a chance to test out some options. First goal is the maxed out Crusader. RFBC, Gatling, Stormspear for the most firepower possible. It will also be a solid screen unit to augment my Dragoons, I think. So my artillery should be a wee bit safer.
So i have been working on my list for 2k and so far have the following, really love the idea of having a Knight with my Ad Mech so the hope is that it will get stuck into the opponents lines doing as much damage as possible while the Onagers and Ballistarii with Cawl put out a reliable damage. I just finished the Stryix as I had been running a Paladin before and I can switch back if I can't use Forge world models but the weapons seem cool and I love the look of the armor so I'll be happy to be able to run it. Just another knight to get and build to be able to run them as a army of their own. Maybe I might split the Dargoons into seperate squads so they can go for seperate objectives and I would have went with the Heavy Arc Rifle before on the Kataphrons as it was more shots but readinbg some reports of the Torsion Cannons and the TPD giving them some re-rolls I think I'll give them a go as well.
As I have four of the Kastelans models with flamers and fists I hope they get a bit of boost in the codex as that would be fun to throw into a enemy line.
gally912 wrote: Guys mechanicus is next after death guard! 7 forge worlds, update points and rules! Also looks like mechanicus knights are a thing!
Praise the omnissiah!
For reals tho, if mechanicus can repair knights with the new dex I will be beyond elated, tho it would make it harder not to take one
Don't hold your breathe.
I doubt we will see Knights directly aligned. I think this is just them trying to not put out yet another Knight Codex.
That being said, I would love if they did.
Expecations:
Kataphrons drop in points, maybe go up in wounds
Kastellans jump in points - I am guessing 150 each.
TPD point drop
Skitarii point drop (maybe)
Tasers hopefully get a bit of a boost (just some AP?!)
Would also be nice if we could get some sort of requisition rule for transports - but that is pure wishlisting. But lets be real - AdMech has the designs and Forge Worlds, how do they not have access to basic stuff like Chimeras, Rhinos, Land Raiders, etc.
gally912 wrote: Guys mechanicus is next after death guard! 7 forge worlds, update points and rules! Also looks like mechanicus knights are a thing!
Praise the omnissiah!
For reals tho, if mechanicus can repair knights with the new dex I will be beyond elated, tho it would make it harder not to take one
Don't hold your breathe.
I doubt we will see Knights directly aligned. I think this is just them trying to not put out yet another Knight Codex.
That being said, I would love if they did.
Expecations:
Kataphrons drop in points, maybe go up in wounds
Kastellans jump in points - I am guessing 150 each.
TPD point drop
Skitarii point drop (maybe)
Tasers hopefully get a bit of a boost (just some AP?!)
Would also be nice if we could get some sort of requisition rule for transports - but that is pure wishlisting. But lets be real - AdMech has the designs and Forge Worlds, how do they not have access to basic stuff like Chimeras, Rhinos, Land Raiders, etc.
I don't know, I can see them using strategems to maybe allow you to add the canticles/admech keyword to a knight so that you can repair it and give it re-rolls, like making a marine a chapter master, not sure how many that would cost probably at least 2. Easily worth the cost to have shrodpalsmed knight with Cawl re-rolls in your first turn... actually maybe they won't go that far.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Why would they possibly put them in the same book if they wernt going to have the "Ad Mech" Keyword
That would be pointless and if they wanted to be typical GW they'd be in a separate codex
This hasn't been "typical GW" since 8th edition released. So throw that out the window. I figure we might get some overlapping options, but I do not expect them to be repair-able or get re-rolls, etc. But I hope to be pleasantly surprised. We could use a buff.
Oh sweet Omnissiah yes, we're getting it soon. I honestly thought they'd skip us over more popular armies like Aeldari and such. I'm really glad, we definitely need transports, every game I play I suffer from it as I can't build armies like I want due to too few models in my collection. Going to wait before buying that Deathwatch box, if they make our army better and release new models I'll need the money.
Has anyone found a way to make Infiltrators useful? I've been wanting to use them instead of Scions in a list as some deepstriking interruption units (something we need as we have no vehicles). The problem I'm having is fitting them in, as they seem to be very expensive and I'm not sure they're actually capable of doing much in the way of wounds?
Otherwise I might just use Scions, and convert the models. Or use infiltrator models anyway haha.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone found a way to make Infiltrators useful? I've been wanting to use them instead of Scions in a list as some deepstriking interruption units (something we need as we have no vehicles). The problem I'm having is fitting them in, as they seem to be very expensive and I'm not sure they're actually capable of doing much in the way of wounds?
Otherwise I might just use Scions, and convert the models. Or use infiltrator models anyway haha.
I use Goads and Stubbers. So far, they have been good. Half the time they just take a table corner and/or objective after I mow down stuff with Robots. The other half, they suicide in to distract my opponent and sometimes do stuff. They get a lot of shots and a decent amount of attacks (provided they make the charge).
From what we saw in C:SM, I don't foresee too many major changes. My guess? Stratagems, tactics, and relics; points adjustments in underused units and underpowered weapons; and MAYBE a few rule changes.
I doubt they will give us a transport. Forge World might... one day...
They definitely will give us "Chapter Tactics" for Forge Worlds. This may finally give us a good reason to take a second Dominus, since all units would have to be drawn from the same forge world to use a tactic.
On that note, I don't think there will be points changes for Skitarii or TPD, but they will get buffs from the aforementioned tactics, stratagems, and relics to justify their cost. (The same will probably push Imperial Guard regiments over the line so that not everything will be Conscript spam.) I personally look forward to the 8E Arcana Mechanicum.
I think they will be using this opportunity to update Knights. The Questor Mechanicus may or may not be its own new faction keyword with its own tactics.
Other stuff:
-Lower cost for Kataphrons
-Lower cost for Servo Arms
-Improvement to Arc weapons
-Improvement to Taser weapons (AP for Lance, another attack for Goad?)
-Improvement to Torsion Cannon
-Improvement to Phosphor Serpenta
Agamembar wrote: So i have been working on my list for 2k and so far have the following, really love the idea of having a Knight with my Ad Mech so the hope is that it will get stuck into the opponents lines doing as much damage as possible while the Onagers and Ballistarii with Cawl put out a reliable damage. I just finished the Stryix as I had been running a Paladin before and I can switch back if I can't use Forge world models but the weapons seem cool and I love the look of the armor so I'll be happy to be able to run it. Just another knight to get and build to be able to run them as a army of their own. Maybe I might split the Dargoons into seperate squads so they can go for seperate objectives and I would have went with the Heavy Arc Rifle before on the Kataphrons as it was more shots but readinbg some reports of the Torsion Cannons and the TPD giving them some re-rolls I think I'll give them a go as well.
As I have four of the Kastelans models with flamers and fists I hope they get a bit of boost in the codex as that would be fun to throw into a enemy line.
Torsion Cannons? Do they work without Holy Requisitioner at all?
Going to be honest, I'm not wild about most of these models. They tend to be too expensive or too narrow in usage to be good. Most armies are just Crawlers, Kastelans, and Cawl with some screening unit for good reason.
Superheavy Aux
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, RFBC, 2x Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer, Stormspear
[585]
[1989]
All this talk about Knights - here is the list I am thinking of running. Just got to build/paint that Crusader.
I would not go below 2x2 Dragoons or 2x Icarus Crawler in a TAC list. Our biggest threats are other artillery armies and extremely mobile flying armies.
And I'm still going to recommend those two Knight builds I posted earlier. The extra points really do help.
I can't really afford 2x2 Dragoons in most lists. They are not that vital, I have found. Useful, but I wouldn't want to cut things like Robots to fit them in. And the RFBC is decent vs Thermal. If I didn't have two Neutrons, I would go Thermal, but I think I have anti-tank covered and the RFBC helps against infantry a bit more than the TC.
I need to paint up another Icarus array. Just don't have it ready yet. Twin Neutrons served me well though, because invariably I only roll 1's for shots. We benefit from that extra Neutron a lot, since we can kill infantry with such ease.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I can't really afford 2x2 Dragoons in most lists. They are not that vital, I have found. Useful, but I wouldn't want to cut things like Robots to fit them in. And the RFBC is decent vs Thermal. If I didn't have two Neutrons, I would go Thermal, but I think I have anti-tank covered and the RFBC helps against infantry a bit more than the TC.
I need to paint up another Icarus array. Just don't have it ready yet. Twin Neutrons served me well though, because invariably I only roll 1's for shots. We benefit from that extra Neutron a lot, since we can kill infantry with such ease.
I absolutely would cut Kastelans for them. Kastelans get totally wrecked if you don't screen them properly. But then again, you've NEVER BEEN CHARGED, so maybe you don't see things like I do. Haha.
I wouldn't pay that many more points for slightly better anti-infantry, especially since you run 5 Kastelans. Besides, the Avenger is already amazingly good anti-infantry. (I would be so happy if AdMech Knights can take double Avenger like Renegade Knights.) Also, keep in mind that Thermal Cannon is great for medium-toughness units like Primaris, TEQs, Dreadnoughts, etc.
Yeah. The Icarus is mostly for anti-air. They shut down Tau and Eldar super hard; they just get oversaturated by threats.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and for what it's worth, Warhammer Community has confirmed that AdMech Knights are "slightly different" than Imperial Knights. Also, Chainswords give you a bonus attack even if you don't use it; so Cawl attacks with Hive even if you don't use it.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I can't really afford 2x2 Dragoons in most lists. They are not that vital, I have found. Useful, but I wouldn't want to cut things like Robots to fit them in. And the RFBC is decent vs Thermal. If I didn't have two Neutrons, I would go Thermal, but I think I have anti-tank covered and the RFBC helps against infantry a bit more than the TC.
I need to paint up another Icarus array. Just don't have it ready yet. Twin Neutrons served me well though, because invariably I only roll 1's for shots. We benefit from that extra Neutron a lot, since we can kill infantry with such ease.
I absolutely would cut Kastelans for them. Kastelans get totally wrecked if you don't screen them properly. But then again, you've NEVER BEEN CHARGED, so maybe you don't see things like I do. Haha.
I wouldn't pay that many more points for slightly better anti-infantry, especially since you run 5 Kastelans. Besides, the Avenger is already amazingly good anti-infantry. (I would be so happy if AdMech Knights can take double Avenger like Renegade Knights.) Also, keep in mind that Thermal Cannon is great for medium-toughness units like Primaris, TEQs, Dreadnoughts, etc.
Yeah. The Icarus is mostly for anti-air. They shut down Tau and Eldar super hard; they just get oversaturated by threats.
I've been charged now. I got a lot more games in. And with my counter-assault unit nearby, it isn't the end all. Fulgurites charge in and smash face and free up my Kastelans. It doesn't always work, but it has helped a lot. Kastelans just are so stupid good. Cutting them is an awful choice, imo. Especially when I already only have 5 in my list. I would love to squeeze in another.
It also isn't slightly better - it is twice as good, generally. D6 vs D3. The Avenger is amazing - we all agree. If I could do dual Avengers, I would. In a heartbeat.
I guess my quick project in the next week or two will be getting another Icarus array built. I have the parts, just not the will to do it just yet. Still burnt out from my League.
I've been charged now. I got a lot more games in. And with my counter-assault unit nearby, it isn't the end all. Fulgurites charge in and smash face and free up my Kastelans. It doesn't always work, but it has helped a lot. Kastelans just are so stupid good. Cutting them is an awful choice, imo. Especially when I already only have 5 in my list. I would love to squeeze in another.
It also isn't slightly better - it is twice as good, generally. D6 vs D3. The Avenger is amazing - we all agree. If I could do dual Avengers, I would. In a heartbeat.
I guess my quick project in the next week or two will be getting another Icarus array built. I have the parts, just not the will to do it just yet. Still burnt out from my League.
Ah right, I forgot about the Fulgurites. They've been working out well for you? I have been skeptical, since you have to actually kill the entire attacking unit to free your Kastelans; my priority has been to intercept them as well as I can before they get to my Kastelans.
Kastelans are strong, but I find that having too many makes us vulnerable to aggressive, mobile assault armies.
Well, the D6 is 75% more volume than D3, but the important thing is what types of infantry we're talking about. If it's GEQ/MEQ, yes, RFBC is better. But then again, your Kastelans are even better than that. But if it's TEQs or something like MCs, well, the TC does here what Kastelans might not be optimal for. Then there's always the nice bit about the TC being much more variable. You might have turns where it totally fizzles out, and others where it makes back its point cost immediately; the RFBC probably takes 2-3 turns at the least to make its points back, and given how you're bringing your Knight into CC, there is no guarantee of that happening. There is also great satisfaction when you blow a transport before stomping on its contents.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Having screening for Kastellans is important, but Dragoons arent the unit to do it, they're not that good in general
Why's that? What aspect are they lacking in?
I see:
-Tough: T6 with Incense Cloud and Shroudpsalm, no battle damage penalties
-Cheap: 68 points is very affordable compared to Vanguard
-Can Fight: I am 100% convinced at this point that you need a screen that can fight
-Fat: Base size is great for tying up enemies
-Mobile: Closes gaps quickly, can intercept enemies and tie them in CC, grabs objectives
The only downside is that Taser Lances are an awkward weapon. They won't kill anything on their own--mostly mop-up--but do we expect Vanguard, Fulgurites, or Conscripts to either?
Fulgurites were decent in the game I played in but I made the mistake of trying to run out to an objective with them. I think in larger groups it helps their voltaic field on the charge with the mortal wounds.
Also I forgot to roll my "doesnt take a wound" rolls after failing saves a number of times
Niiru wrote: Has anyone found a way to make Infiltrators useful? I've been wanting to use them instead of Scions in a list as some deepstriking interruption units (something we need as we have no vehicles). The problem I'm having is fitting them in, as they seem to be very expensive and I'm not sure they're actually capable of doing much in the way of wounds?
Otherwise I might just use Scions, and convert the models. Or use infiltrator models anyway haha.
I use Goads and Stubbers. So far, they have been good. Half the time they just take a table corner and/or objective after I mow down stuff with Robots. The other half, they suicide in to distract my opponent and sometimes do stuff. They get a lot of shots and a decent amount of attacks (provided they make the charge).
What would their ideal targets be? I assume Scions would jump in and go for big multiwound enemies and vehicles, but I'm not sure what the Goads would be best to throw at.
Well I thought I had built an easy list, didn't know what he would bring or even which army. Turns out I wrecked him in three turns :/ Infiltrators with Tasers and Flechettes are DEVASTATING against 6+ saves, seriously I killed like 12 Gargoyles with 25 shots. I never tried running them with Power swords & Stubbers, which seems suited for MEQ, but just having S6 attacks with Tesla is nice enough to have. The amount of stuff you can kill with the Flechettes can be absurd as long as you're not aiming at Terminators. Overall I think they're cheap enough to be run at least once in every list, they're very good for flanking manoeuvers against low model count armies and are pretty versatile.
Another thing that in my opinion favours Vanguard for screening is the -1T debuff in CC. Combine with a dedicated CC unit like the aforementioned Infiltrators and get ready to wound T4 on a 2+ with them. It allowed me to lock the Flyrant in place and with the two Vanguard survivors I could debuff him long enough for the Infiltrators to wound him on 3+ and finish him off. Don't get me wrong I still believe the Vanguards are either too expensive or just not good enough for their points, but it's just that I like the models so much and I'm short on Skitarii so I'm fitting them everywhere.
I hope we'll have a Forge-World tactic that revolves around radiation or something, I'd like to play such a themed army. Really want to play my mobile gunline too, so here's to my expectations for the codex.
Also we really need a cheaper HQ, because we'll need those CP.
Jaynen wrote:Fulgurites were decent in the game I played in but I made the mistake of trying to run out to an objective with them. I think in larger groups it helps their voltaic field on the charge with the mortal wounds.
Also I forgot to roll my "doesnt take a wound" rolls after failing saves a number of times
Yeah, infantry without transports are slowww. Another reason why I like Dragoons. They
Niiru wrote:What would their ideal targets be? I assume Scions would jump in and go for big multiwound enemies and vehicles, but I'm not sure what the Goads would be best to throw at.
Yeah, Goads and Stubbers are great for hordes. Both Infiltrators and Scions probably won't last very long though...
Aaranis wrote:I hope we'll have a Forge-World tactic that revolves around radiation or something, I'd like to play such a themed army. Really want to play my mobile gunline too, so here's to my expectations for the codex.
Also we really need a cheaper HQ, because we'll need those CP.
Radiation would be cool. I really want detonatable vehicles though. I'd take a separate detachment for that.
I don't think the codex will give us a new HQ or cheaper Vanguard or Dominus. Instead, as I said, they will give us the relics and tactics to make choosing them over Conscripts viable.
Jaynen wrote:Fulgurites were decent in the game I played in but I made the mistake of trying to run out to an objective with them. I think in larger groups it helps their voltaic field on the charge with the mortal wounds.
Also I forgot to roll my "doesnt take a wound" rolls after failing saves a number of times
Yeah, infantry without transports are slowww. Another reason why I like Dragoons. They
Niiru wrote:What would their ideal targets be? I assume Scions would jump in and go for big multiwound enemies and vehicles, but I'm not sure what the Goads would be best to throw at.
Yeah, Goads and Stubbers are great for hordes. Both Infiltrators and Scions probably won't last very long though...
Yeh true, but for 140 points I can get two squads of scions with 4 plasma guns total, which will be in rapid fire range for 8 shots total, which they'll definitly be able to fire.
For the same points I would get 5 infiltrators with tasers and flechettes... so I'd get 25 S3 shots which isn't bad, but the important part is that they need to charge into combat to get their full usefullnes into play, and succeeding that charge is... I dunno what the odds are, like 30%? Granted I could use CP to reroll the charge dice but it's still not great.
I wonder if the 15 S4 shots from the Stubcarbine actually works out better than the 25 S3 shots of the flechette...
15 S4 shots = 1 dead space marine, or 4 dead guards.
25 S3 shots = 1 dead space marine, or 5 dead guards.
If you look at the decimals, the 25 S3 shots actually kill more of a marine than the S4 do. The extra shots seem to always be better, no matter what the toughness of the enemy is.
Jaynen wrote: Fulgurites were decent in the game I played in but I made the mistake of trying to run out to an objective with them. I think in larger groups it helps their voltaic field on the charge with the mortal wounds.
Also I forgot to roll my "doesnt take a wound" rolls after failing saves a number of times
How are you playing them and getting them safely into close combat? In my last 3 games they haven't done much and didn't manage to wipe a unit before dying quickly and they're in a 10 man unit.
Jaynen wrote: Fulgurites were decent in the game I played in but I made the mistake of trying to run out to an objective with them. I think in larger groups it helps their voltaic field on the charge with the mortal wounds.
Also I forgot to roll my "doesnt take a wound" rolls after failing saves a number of times
How are you playing them and getting them safely into close combat? In my last 3 games they haven't done much and didn't manage to wipe a unit before dying quickly and they're in a 10 man unit.
Yeah, this sort of thing describes my fear. Fulgurites have to stay 3" in front of your Kastelans, and if the enemy's units somehow get past your Fulgurites, you have to actually kill them to get them off your Kastelans.
Agamembar wrote: So i have been working on my list for 2k and so far have the following, really love the idea of having a Knight with my Ad Mech so the hope is that it will get stuck into the opponents lines doing as much damage as possible while the Onagers and Ballistarii with Cawl put out a reliable damage. I just finished the Stryix as I had been running a Paladin before and I can switch back if I can't use Forge world models but the weapons seem cool and I love the look of the armor so I'll be happy to be able to run it. Just another knight to get and build to be able to run them as a army of their own. Maybe I might split the Dargoons into seperate squads so they can go for seperate objectives and I would have went with the Heavy Arc Rifle before on the Kataphrons as it was more shots but readinbg some reports of the Torsion Cannons and the TPD giving them some re-rolls I think I'll give them a go as well.
As I have four of the Kastelans models with flamers and fists I hope they get a bit of boost in the codex as that would be fun to throw into a enemy line.
Torsion Cannons? Do they work without Holy Requisitioner at all?
I feel that they have a better chance now that they get a re-roll and healing from the TPD, to be fair I agree the 1 shot from the torsion cannons might not be worth the points and would probably switch back to the Heavy Arc Rilfes.
Hopefully the codex will help them a bit as they are expensive but I feel like they an stick around longer than the standard skitarii troops and prove a bit more useful in the long run. that said I can swap them out for another 5 man vanguard and an inflitrator squad easily enough.
Jaynen wrote: Fulgurites were decent in the game I played in but I made the mistake of trying to run out to an objective with them. I think in larger groups it helps their voltaic field on the charge with the mortal wounds.
Also I forgot to roll my "doesnt take a wound" rolls after failing saves a number of times
How are you playing them and getting them safely into close combat? In my last 3 games they haven't done much and didn't manage to wipe a unit before dying quickly and they're in a 10 man unit.
Yeah, this sort of thing describes my fear. Fulgurites have to stay 3" in front of your Kastelans, and if the enemy's units somehow get past your Fulgurites, you have to actually kill them to get them off your Kastelans.
That strategy has worked for me in at least two games. They are a speedbump that you need to charge, because if you get close and don't charge, they will slam in with mortal wounds. 5++/5+++ also makes them surprisingly resilient to the type of firepower I have seen come at them - as so much firepower goes to the robots and Dunecralwers, it is unreal. I still have only once been able to get their improved save though and against anything with CC abilities, they are pretty doomed. Still, for what they do and their price, they are not awful.
I didn't use the priests for screening, I had them running up a table edge to an objective. My opponent brought in a 3 man unit of the deepstriking primaris guys. I ended up moving something I don't remember what maybe one of the Kastellans to be able to fire at those and wounded them then I charged and finished off the last marine with the priests to get the save.
I had already lost 2 of my 5 priests to fire from a tactical squad however
Jaynen wrote: I didn't use the priests for screening, I had them running up a table edge to an objective. My opponent brought in a 3 man unit of the deepstriking primaris guys. I ended up moving something I don't remember what maybe one of the Kastellans to be able to fire at those and wounded them then I charged and finished off the last marine with the priests to get the save.
I had already lost 2 of my 5 priests to fire from a tactical squad however
I never roll with less than 10 dudes. They are T3 1 wound each, despite their saves, so a 5-man unit isn't going to have much longevity.
Also, I tend to let my Dragoons go chasing objectives far from my deployment and leave my Fulgurites for holding down the fort. So far, that has worked for me rather well.
Robots must be dealts from your enemy and the best is to kill them melee.Especially if you play your Protocols properly.You dont have to Change Aegis immediately and against all enemies round2.
IF they come for your robots then Dragoons will screen .Cawl will screen.Datasmith will even intervean. Robots cant be get in melee before 3rd round.
Then priest come to finish up what Cawl/TPD have soften or dragoons even. Their D6 mortal wound on charge and they 12+attacks never use them lower than 6 in a unit preffered 10-20man.
If Dragoons are not used as screener then they are still Fast unit better for objectives clearing 5 man campers etc.
Onagers ,laser ,icarus , lascannons , sniper must deal enemy lascannons generally the big threat of your robots.
This is basic for Ad Mech since if you manage to get your enemy all within 36 range of your robots game over .You ll clear obj etc easy. Dont forget to do so you must focus enemy threats for robots fast. like lascannons.
Either way you ll need Tempestus infiltrators or a plan that will deal anything out of 48 range camping. Same goes for a big threat maybe enemy onagers. Gettign enemy onagers in cc is good .How will you do it with no deep strike ,fast unit ?? Maybe if you playfirst can reduce the threat but you wont go first.
Get you army facing a pure core ad mech and then make your list. IF i have 6 onagers 4 dragoons 4 kastelans and a Cawl etc etc. How you gonna win? With knight? you wont.
Yeah, a large part of the game is getting your Kastelans into position to control multiple objectives, then just keeping the enemy off of them.
There aren't too many threats with more than 56" range (7-11W Crawlers can move 8" and shoot without penalty). I do worry about fast 48" range units like Razorbacks and Taurox Primes though. That's when Dragoons become SUPER important. Every fall back you force is another turn you get to shoot. Every disembark you force is an opportunity to totally slaughter a 5 or 10-man squad.
But yeah, I still think the best Imperium Soup alternatives are Knights, Scions, and Conscripts.
I plan to run both scions, a taurox prime, and a knight.
But now I have to consider the warden vs crusader debate. Still leaning towards the thermal cannon crusader. But also debating the missile launchers points.
Thing is a second tempestor prime/command squad/scions squad and Taurox are tempting too
Jaynen wrote: I plan to run both scions, a taurox prime, and a knight.
But now I have to consider the warden vs crusader debate. Still leaning towards the thermal cannon crusader. But also debating the missile launchers points.
Thing is a second tempestor prime/command squad/scions squad and Taurox are tempting too
If it makes the decision easier, the Stormspear is really, really good; it should cost 60 points for what it does, and you won't regret taking it, even if it bumps the point count to 557. I am just personally averse to sinking more points on a Crusader than I need to.
That being said, don't underestimate the Gauntlet. 16 Strength lets you peel open vehicles like cheap tin cans.
Suzuteo wrote: From what we saw in C:SM, I don't foresee too many major changes. My guess? Stratagems, tactics, and relics; points adjustments in underused units and underpowered weapons; and MAYBE a few rule changes.
I doubt they will give us a transport. Forge World might... one day...
They definitely will give us "Chapter Tactics" for Forge Worlds. This may finally give us a good reason to take a second Dominus, since all units would have to be drawn from the same forge world to use a tactic.
On that note, I don't think there will be points changes for Skitarii or TPD, but they will get buffs from the aforementioned tactics, stratagems, and relics to justify their cost. (The same will probably push Imperial Guard regiments over the line so that not everything will be Conscript spam.) I personally look forward to the 8E Arcana Mechanicum.
I think they will be using this opportunity to update Knights. The Questor Mechanicus may or may not be its own new faction keyword with its own tactics.
Other stuff:
-Lower cost for Kataphrons
-Lower cost for Servo Arms
-Improvement to Arc weapons
-Improvement to Taser weapons (AP for Lance, another attack for Goad?)
-Improvement to Torsion Cannon
-Improvement to Phosphor Serpenta
I think GW's plan is to only put anything in the codex that is ready on codex release date. With the new method being to include the rules in the box, they no longer have to have the rules in the codex. They can just release a new model whenever they want, and you get the rules by picking up the box. It gives them a lot more flexibility in their release schedule. Or maybe I'm just optimistic. hah.
I'm struggling to find reasons to take infiltrators / vanguard in my army list.
A unit of 5 with pistols aren't bad, they come with a lot of shots, but the taser goad with no AP seems lackluster. They just seem a bit expensive.
Though saying that, for the same points I could get 10 scions with a total of 4 plasma guns... which wouldn't actually do more damage against most units. Same number of wounds too.
130 pts for 5 infiltrators with flechette and taser goads
8" move 3+ws 3+bs 4S 3T 2W 2A 6+ invuln
25 s3 ap 0 1 dmg shots
10 taser goad hits?
Its 106 pts for a Tempestor Prime and a command squad with 4 plasma. But for another 66 you can get the scions with 2 plasma plus the tempestus with the plasma pistol.
And the Tempestor means you have reroll capability, or double move etc
Jaynen wrote: 130 pts for 5 infiltrators with flechette and taser goads
8" move 3+ws 3+bs 4S 3T 2W 2A 6+ invuln
25 s3 ap 0 1 dmg shots
10 taser goad hits?
Its 106 pts for a Tempestor Prime and a command squad with 4 plasma. But for another 66 you can get the scions with 2 plasma plus the tempestus with the plasma pistol.
And the Tempestor means you have reroll capability, or double move etc
I'm not sure if your maths there is in favour of the infiltrators or the tempestus haha. 25 pistol shots (so like 17 hits) + 10 taser hits sounds like a lot from just 5 models. The Scions would be putting out 12 plasma shots, so 8 hits, plus maybe 3 or 4 lasgun hits. Good against high-wound enemies I guess?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok so... I've been going through some of my other units that I like (fluffwise or modelwise at least) looking for an alternative to infiltrators that fills the same kind of niche. And I came across the Sisters Seraphim.
Bare with me while I go through this, as I'm actually not sure if one wins out over the other haha.
I'll work out for roughly equal points costs. A basic taser squad of 5 infiltrators is 135 points. A basic squad of 10 seraphim (and giving the superior a power sword + plasma pistol) adds up to 121 points. So the comparison:
You can also swap 4 of those pistols for inferno pistols or hand flamers, but cos the ranges on those are only 6" they dont work after deepstriking, so I ignored them for now. I'll come back to this later.
Stats:
A lot of their stats are the same, but the ones that are different are -
Movement -
Both have the same deepstrike rule, but Seraphim can move 12" over infiltrators 8". - Win to Seraphim
Strength -
Infiltrators have +1 strength, which is a pretty handy difference. Win for Admech.
Wounds -
Infiltrators are 2 wounds a piece, but for the points both have 10 wounds total. Infiltrators will be weaker to multi-damage weapons though. Draw
Attacks -
Same as wounds. As of the Errata, infiltrators are 2 attacks each, but theres twice as many seraphim. Draw
Leadership -
Sisters have +1 leadership. Win for the sisters.
Armour Saves -
Sisters have a 3+, which is an improvement over infiltrators 4+. They both have a 6+ invulnerable, but seraphim can re-roll failed invulnerable saves. Definite win for Seraphim.
Damage dealing! -
The important part.
Well, The infiltrators will put out 25 S3 shots, so using a standard marine as the target, thats 1.85 dead marines.
Sisters will put out 18 S4 shots, which means 2 dead marines. Add in the single plasma shot at S7 (cos why not) and it goes up to 2.15 dead marines. A win to the seraphim, just.
But then we charge into melee:
Infiltrators will put out 11 S6 attacks, with the occasional bonus hit, adding up to 2.1 dead marines.
Seraphim only have their butts to attack with (pistol butts, that is), but they still get 11 attacks, 2 of them with a power sword so that adds up to... 1.1 dead marines.
SO total damage on the deepstriking turn is:
Infiltrators - 3.95 dead beakies (edit - if you use swords, this ups to 4.95 dead marines. Big improvement.)
Seraphim - 3.25 dead mareenz
A decent win for Admech, but with the sisters being about 15 points cheaper. It's not all that far off. (Edit: with swords the damage gap is larger, with points cost gap being smaller)
But the sisters have the better armour saves, and the ability to re-roll failed invulnerables, so they are more likely to survive (I think).
True, canticles can give the infiltrators +1 to their armour save for a turn, but Celeste can give seraphim +1 to their invulnerable saves too (though that's a whole other investment)
However, and one final thing to point out for this - Seraphim can use an act of faith. Which means they can shoot their pistols twice per turn. Or move 24" in a turn. Or regain a lot model. This is pretty handy, particularly the extra round of pistol shots (though you wouldn't be able to do this on the turn they deepstrike).
So yeh. Considering Imperial Soup is an option, I thought it was worth looking at other options. While the first-turn damage output is in favour of infiltrators (just about), it seems like Seraphim (and I'm sure other similar units) are more likely to survive a couple rounds longer. Maybe.
Any thoughts? Or suggestions? Or corrections on my 5am math, which is likely to be... hilariously erroneous lol.
I need to sleep, so I'll catch up on the discussion on the 'morrow!
Edit: because swords might be the better choice, even though it means less pistol shots. Seraphim are still faster and harder to kill, but infiltrators do more damage.
Also, I didn't do the usual scions comparison, because I think scions wouldn't do that great. Their targets are more multi-wound enemies and vehicles I guess.
There was a discussion a longgg time ago about Sisters + AdMech. The lists invariably ended up being an Imperium Soup involving Cawl + 6 Crawlers, Lord Commissar + Conscripts, and Celestine + Sisters.
Here was my list. Come to think of it, I never posted it here.
The idea is to have a Conscript blob with Lord Commissar screen for Cawl and the 6 Crawlers. Dominion squads scout ahead at the start of a game; melta squads are suicide units to eliminate transports, storm bolter squads camp objectives. Celestine + Seraphim are mobile and can move through the blob to fight, grab objectives, etc. I actually personally am a bit skeptical of this, but the principles are similar to most Imperium Soup armies.
I'm sure that if I were more serious about this, I would do something with ObSec Sisters and Repressor Rhinos, but eh.
I like how the Vanguard/Ranger models look and hopefully they get some love when the Codex drops. My question is has anybody found a good method to cover the gigantic line gap on each side of the robe that makes it look like a smooth 1 piece robe?
Msolve wrote: I like how the Vanguard/Ranger models look and hopefully they get some love when the Codex drops. My question is has anybody found a good method to cover the gigantic line gap on each side of the robe that makes it look like a smooth 1 piece robe?
I love them too, I want to field at least 30 Skitarii but that's just insane by the actual rules. As for the gaps, you could apply liquid Green Stuff, or do as I do: when assembling the two parts, put a lot of glue and assemble. Quickly wipe off the excess of glue on both sides and you should have a somewhat smoothened robe.
Never worked perfectly for me to be honest but liquid Green Stuff is the way to go.
Msolve wrote: I like how the Vanguard/Ranger models look and hopefully they get some love when the Codex drops. My question is has anybody found a good method to cover the gigantic line gap on each side of the robe that makes it look like a smooth 1 piece robe?
I love them too, I want to field at least 30 Skitarii but that's just insane by the actual rules. As for the gaps, you could apply liquid Green Stuff, or do as I do: when assembling the two parts, put a lot of glue and assemble. Quickly wipe off the excess of glue on both sides and you should have a somewhat smoothened robe.
Never worked perfectly for me to be honest but liquid Green Stuff is the way to go.
Even LGS isn't perfect. I have assembled and painted at least 20 or so now and invariably a few still have a slight line. It is tough to get it perfect and I am a bit of a perfectionist.
Yuuuuuuuuup. The whole kit is an exercise in misery. Which is... the entire AdMech line, honestly. Kastelans are not bad and Onagers are ok, but have their issues. The rest? Absolute misery. Especially Fulgurites and Sicarians.
Jaynen wrote: Yeah I tried assembly line thing with the Skiitari and found out the hardway the robes and legs are unique
SAME. Damn that was infuriating!!!
I wound up having to dig back through the instructions and match-up legs to torsos. This put me days behind during my league because I would have to go in and paint fresh sets of legs. It was maddening.
The Fulgurites are similar in that the arms/backpacks aren't exactly interchangeable. And they are damned delicate. The collars break if you dare move the model!
Dragoons gave me a headache too because the little discs that go into the legs didn't want to line up right and I only figured out on my last one that I didn't really need to glue them - this made re-positioning until they sank in easier. UGH.
I think the only models I enjoyed were the Dunecrawlers and Kastelans, for sure. They go together pretty smoothly, though the former is a bit of a pain when assembling the legs and the hull. The latter is a breeze though and I finally got another box! So I will be up to 6+ shortly.
Is the current wisdom for Infiltrators (and other units) to take minimum squads of 5 still? Is this just because of the potential for failing morale tests?
I was wondering if there is much benefit in taking an inquisitor along with them then? (one with the teleport deepstrike ability)
- Gives an extra character and bunch of attacks, with either power swords or daemon hammers depending on the character
.
- Ups the infiltrator leadership to 9, so less morale issues
- Adds psychic powers to the group. Terrify will give -1 to enemy leadership, and stops overwatch, which would be a nice combo with infiltrators aura that also drops enemy leadership by 1.
So instead of 2 drops being 2x5 infiltrators, you could have 2 drops of Inquisitor + One squad of infiltrators (maybe not even 10, could drop it to just 8 maybe). No overwatch, enemy units getting -2 to leadership could maybe force some morale issues.
Would cost a bit more for the drops, but might give a lot of extra value and staying power to the squad. Just a thought.
Re assembling and painting Vanguard and Rangers. What works for me is to identify the legs and cloak pieces that must go together and build them first. Once I have that done I paint the legs separately from the cloak/body, this makes painting the inside of the cloaks easy. Once that is done I glue them together and attach them to the base. The gun/arms are matched to each other, but any set of arms will match any body so I paint the arm/guns together and then glue them on. Then paint the heads and backpack last.
I instantly regretted buying Skitarii the moment I looked at the instructions. To anyone getting into this army: Buy some Cadians or some throwaway infantry mini and then some Skitarii, then kit bash heads, arms, and weapons!
Jaynen wrote: Yeah I tried assembly line thing with the Skiitari and found out the hardway the robes and legs are unique
SAME. Damn that was infuriating!!!
I wound up having to dig back through the instructions and match-up legs to torsos. This put me days behind during my league because I would have to go in and paint fresh sets of legs. It was maddening.
The Fulgurites are similar in that the arms/backpacks aren't exactly interchangeable. And they are damned delicate. The collars break if you dare move the model!
Dragoons gave me a headache too because the little discs that go into the legs didn't want to line up right and I only figured out on my last one that I didn't really need to glue them - this made re-positioning until they sank in easier. UGH.
I think the only models I enjoyed were the Dunecrawlers and Kastelans, for sure. They go together pretty smoothly, though the former is a bit of a pain when assembling the legs and the hull. The latter is a breeze though and I finally got another box! So I will be up to 6+ shortly.
Honestly I just put together one squad without knowing that and got lucky. Next one wasn't like that though...
Solis Luna Astrum wrote:Re assembling and painting Vanguard and Rangers. What works for me is to identify the legs and cloak pieces that must go together and build them first. Once I have that done I paint the legs separately from the cloak/body, this makes painting the inside of the cloaks easy. Once that is done I glue them together and attach them to the base. The gun/arms are matched to each other, but any set of arms will match any body so I paint the arm/guns together and then glue them on. Then paint the heads and backpack last.
I did the same except for that whole matching part.
Suzuteo wrote:I instantly regretted buying Skitarii the moment I looked at the instructions. To anyone getting into this army: Buy some Cadians or some throwaway infantry mini and then some Skitarii, then kit bash heads, arms, and weapons!
Blasphemy. Just don't buy them at all and opt for Dragoons... which are their own kind of annoying.
Could trade out the Librarian for a Venerable Chaplain Dreadnought, for about the same points cost. Either way it would be a HQ character that can't be shot at unless it's the nearest enemy. Librarian has 2 psychic powers and +1 to deny rolls, while the Chaplain is tougher with a FnP save.
Onagers, Dakkastellans and the Leviathan are the big shooty hitters. Ironclads and the Rockem-Sockem-Bots are the brawlers. The HQ (whichever one it is) can fairly safely get into whatever combat it likes.
With 200 points spare I can add in some skirmishers or screeners, maybe even drop something from the list to add in some more sensible options. This just seemed like fun haha.
Edit: For some background as to why I decided to make this list, I thought it would look cool on the tabletop with some counts-as units.
As AdMech, always assume you are going second. If they have Deep Strike, always disperse your deployment to block it. And always hide your Crawlers; remember, they don't get a penalty for moving, so they don't need to start 6" from Cawl; they just need to be able to walk there.
Played a match against Space Wolves today, my Fulgurite Electro-Priests finally did work! They took out a Fenrisian Great Axe/Blizzard Shield Venerable Dreadnought in a single turn of combat. Rolled 3 mortal wounds on the charge with Voltagheist Field and a whopping 15 mortal wounds in combat. The Dreadnought even went first in combat through command points and only managed to kill 2 of them. I know the performance was way above average, but it at least gives me hope that they'll pretty much destroy anything in close combat given the numbers and right movement maneuvering. Having Chant of the Remorseless Fist active as my canticle certainly didn't hurt either. Ended up winning the match 7-2 as a cherry on top. Still waiting for the Tempestus Scions to shine but they'll get their day, in the meantime I'm gonna try to avoid deep striking against hardy units with good invulnerable saves.
Quick question, against units that have an ability that lets them make an extra attack before being removed from play when they die, do the electro-priests gain their 3++ before that extra attack or after?
Quick question, against units that have an ability that lets them make an extra attack before being removed from play when they die, do the electro-priests gain their 3++ before that extra attack or after?
Interesting point. The only unit I know offhand with that ability are Noise Marines. Their rule states "Do not remove the slain model yet - after the attacking unit has finished making all its attacks, the slain model can make a shooting attack". While Fulgurites rule says that after they wipe out a unit in the fight phase they gain 3++.
The Noise Marine rule saying not to remove the model, until after their extra attacks happen, would seem to me that their squad is not "wiped out" until after they have made their attacks.
However if you were in combat with multiple squads (say one squad of noise marines and one squad of ... I dunno, Grots), it would go like this -
1) Fulgurites go first and kill all the Noise marines.
2) Noise marines make their final death attacks
3) Fulgurites gain 3++
4) Grots have their attack phase.
This is just the way it reads to me, though there would be an arguement to be made that the noise marines were "wiped out" as soon as you killed them all, even though they have some attacks still to resolve. Tricky.
So I am new-ish into mechanicum in 8th and wanted to feedback on my list here. I know everyone is kinda down on kataphrons, but I have 6 and no kastellans or ballistarii so I am making due. I have had great luck in my games with the plasma variety as well (4 games against guard, tau, orks and dark angels).
So after reading the tactica, I think splitting the 10 vanguard into 2x5 with 2 plasmas each sounds like a better idea, I am just having issues with 5 vanguard getting blown off the table by wyverns 10 would at least get me into a position to shoot some stuff, but I digress.
Without access to kastellans or ballistarii (I will hopefully be getting some kastellans soon, but I am not a huge fan of ballistarii models if I'm honest) how would you guys tweak this list. I have access to all 4 assassins (which I have run all of and am thinking the eversor and vindy came out on top in 8th) and a space marine collection to fill out holes where needed. My list isn't very fast or mobile and I was thinking of either some infiltrators or rustalkers to take the pressure off the big guns in the back. Also, I haven't finished putting my knight together and plan on magnetizing to have all options available - so that's a thing too. I just love the idea of a big stompy robot with a giant gattling cannon and crunchy fist
As AdMech, always assume you are going second. If they have Deep Strike, always disperse your deployment to block it. And always hide your Crawlers; remember, they don't get a penalty for moving, so they don't need to start 6" from Cawl; they just need to be able to walk there.
My last game against a guard army that was artillery heavy had me really down after the first turn. My knight went from 24 wounds to 8, my rangers got wiped in morale, both units of vanguard were down 2-3 dudes before I got to fire a shot. I had a lackluster first turn but my opponent's poor second turn opened the door. My second turn saw my knight kill a Valkyrie and two leman russ's by himself (the russ's were damaged, but still ), I destroyed his last leman russ, his other valkyrie and got into combat with both squads that were inside the flyers.
After 5 turns I managed a win when I thought I was for sure going to lose to all those big guns. The army was much more resilient than I gave it credit for. I only had both my dominus', 2-3 kataphrons and both assassins left, but that's all I needed to hold 3 objectives to his 1. Super fun game snatching victory from the jaws of defeat lol
Castellan Alaric wrote: My last game against a guard army that was artillery heavy had me really down after the first turn. My knight went from 24 wounds to 8, my rangers got wiped in morale, both units of vanguard were down 2-3 dudes before I got to fire a shot. I had a lackluster first turn but my opponent's poor second turn opened the door. My second turn saw my knight kill a Valkyrie and two leman russ's by himself (the russ's were damaged, but still ), I destroyed his last leman russ, his other valkyrie and got into combat with both squads that were inside the flyers.
After 5 turns I managed a win when I thought I was for sure going to lose to all those big guns. The army was much more resilient than I gave it credit for. I only had both my dominus', 2-3 kataphrons and both assassins left, but that's all I needed to hold 3 objectives to his 1. Super fun game snatching victory from the jaws of defeat lol
I would much rather my opponent shoot at my Knight and Dragoons than the parts of my army that are going to be doing the real damage; well, the Knight does do damage, but the Crawlers and Kastelans are much less durable. And yeah, we do have a rather durable army. Everything has an invulnerable save, can be repaired, has cover out in the open, etc. It's also why I have pretty much given up on Skitarii. If I want infantry, I'll take Conscripts, but I would much rather just have Dragoons. T6, Incense Cloud, Shroudpsalm, 6++ invulnerable save; they're great.
How I wish I could do my project of a mass infantry AdMech army. The codex better gives us options to make the Skitarii viable or I'll have to change what I'd like most. Always loved the idea of an unstoppable mass of radioactive cyborgs walking relentlessly to the enemy under a hail of esoteric weapons.
But back then we had Scout.
Now even with 5 man units I still roll poorly on morale and lose the last guy to that. Where are our emotionless soldiers ?
I hope there is some Relic that provides a 5++ bubble shield or something. Near the end of 7th edition, the only two viable AdMech armies were WarCon and Relic spam. The idea of priests leading an army of fanatics into battle on foot has much appeal to me.
Suzuteo wrote: I hope there is some Relic that provides a 5++ bubble shield or something. Near the end of 7th edition, the only two viable AdMech armies were WarCon and Relic spam. The idea of priests leading an army of fanatics into battle on foot has much appeal to me.
I'd be fine keeping the 6++ we have across the board- if we're doing a bubble, gimme that sweep FNP back!
I too long for Skitarii to be a thing again.
Wishlisting, I'd like to see Rangers go to straight AP -1 (bolt rifles at that point) and the space marine scout deployment option.
Vanguard could get just the old scout move.
I'd be fine keeping them at the same points if they had things like that.
Suzuteo wrote: I hope there is some Relic that provides a 5++ bubble shield or something. Near the end of 7th edition, the only two viable AdMech armies were WarCon and Relic spam. The idea of priests leading an army of fanatics into battle on foot has much appeal to me.
I'd be fine keeping the 6++ we have across the board- if we're doing a bubble, gimme that sweep FNP back!
I too long for Skitarii to be a thing again.
Wishlisting, I'd like to see Rangers go to straight AP -1 (bolt rifles at that point) and the space marine scout deployment option.
Vanguard could get just the old scout move.
I'd be fine keeping them at the same points if they had things like that.
I would think some rule like "+1 to infantry invulnerable save rolls within 12" while there are 5 or more models in the unit" would do it nicely; I actually would not be too dismayed to see Relics mostly benefit infantry only, as it would give Skitarii and Kataphrons a boost. They would also need to buff the weapons I mentioned earlier. Especially Arc Rifles. Right now, Arc Rifles are cheap, and you get what you pay for.
Scout is in 8th edition. Ironically, it's called "Vanguard":
Vanguard: Once both sides are deployed but before the first player takes their turn, this unit can move as if it were their Movement phase. If both players have units that can do this, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. If all of the models embarked on a transport vehicle have this ability, then the transport vehicle can make the move instead.
This rule even mentions transports. Oh ho ho ho...
I believe the bubble thing will come back with the Secutarii, that was their signature move. You know, the shield that reduced the Strength from incoming shots and gave an invulnerable save ? I think it gave an invulnerable save.
Can't wait to see those guys back anyway.
I'd love it if they gave their glory back to the Infiltrators, right now the -1 Ld aura within 3" is pretty much useless, I don't remember it having been useful once in all the games I played. In 7th I liked to park them in a building to piss off every enemy unit within 6" with the debuff.
Make the Domini worth their cost by allowing them to carry useful auras that you could chose with a stratagem or relic ?
Amp up the Ld of most of our units ?
So much work to do in this codex, I feel I have too much hope and we'll get no new release and Cawl will still be a must-take. I think I'll do a pause with my AdMech if they fail this codex :/
Suzuteo wrote: I hope there is some Relic that provides a 5++ bubble shield or something. Near the end of 7th edition, the only two viable AdMech armies were WarCon and Relic spam. The idea of priests leading an army of fanatics into battle on foot has much appeal to me.
I'd be fine keeping the 6++ we have across the board- if we're doing a bubble, gimme that sweep FNP back!
I too long for Skitarii to be a thing again.
Wishlisting, I'd like to see Rangers go to straight AP -1 (bolt rifles at that point) and the space marine scout deployment option.
Vanguard could get just the old scout move.
I'd be fine keeping them at the same points if they had things like that.
I would think some rule like "+1 to infantry invulnerable save rolls within 12" while there are 5 or more models in the unit" would do it nicely; I actually would not be too dismayed to see Relics mostly benefit infantry only, as it would give Skitarii and Kataphrons a boost. They would also need to buff the weapons I mentioned earlier. Especially Arc Rifles. Right now, Arc Rifles are cheap, and you get what you pay for.
Scout is in 8th edition. Ironically, it's called "Vanguard":
Vanguard: Once both sides are deployed but before the first player takes their turn, this unit can move as if it were their Movement phase. If both players have units that can do this, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. If all of the models embarked on a transport vehicle have this ability, then the transport vehicle can make the move instead.
This rule even mentions transports. Oh ho ho ho...
I think Rangers need Sniper Lite on their base weapon to give them the ability to target characters.
Aaranis wrote: I believe the bubble thing will come back with the Secutarii, that was their signature move. You know, the shield that reduced the Strength from incoming shots and gave an invulnerable save ? I think it gave an invulnerable save.
Can't wait to see those guys back anyway.
I'd love it if they gave their glory back to the Infiltrators, right now the -1 Ld aura within 3" is pretty much useless, I don't remember it having been useful once in all the games I played. In 7th I liked to park them in a building to piss off every enemy unit within 6" with the debuff.
Make the Domini worth their cost by allowing them to carry useful auras that you could chose with a stratagem or relic ?
Amp up the Ld of most of our units ?
So much work to do in this codex, I feel I have too much hope and we'll get no new release and Cawl will still be a must-take. I think I'll do a pause with my AdMech if they fail this codex :/
Yeah. Maybe we'll have to wait for that. I mean, if it's combi-weapons plus a bubble shield like the one I described (only for all nearby AdMech units, since they are the TITAN Guard) for 12 points each, I will definitely take 20. Crawlers, Kastelans, and a Knight Crusader with 4++ save would be insane; the Crawlers get to reroll theirs and the Kastelans can keep Aegis on for 3++ and reflect on 4++.
I think the nerf to the Sicarians was quite deliberate. =\
Yup. No new HQ, just making the old ones more useful. Either way, Cawl's reroll is too good. (It's like rolling 20-30% more dice.)
I think the morale problem in 8th edition can be solved by setting scaling incentives for having larger units.
Has anyone tried to implement Custodes into their Ad Mech army? How do they fare in general and would they fill in any weaknesses in our army? They look awesome and great on paper and I'd love to find a way to make them viable and useful in a 1500 pt list.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone tried to implement Custodes into their Ad Mech army? How do they fare in general and would they fill in any weaknesses in our army? They look awesome and great on paper and I'd love to find a way to make them viable and useful in a 1500 pt list.
I considered them for a while, as the models are kinda cool, but I think all the imperial insignia they have (on literally every item of clothing) is a bit over the top. Rules wise, they're very expensive and very strong, but can only take their own land raider as a transport... which is actually pretty good.
Not really sure how you would use them to fill a niche in the army, though having a transport would certainly make them the fastest thing on your list I guess. They're damn hard to kill.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone tried to implement Custodes into their Ad Mech army? How do they fare in general and would they fill in any weaknesses in our army? They look awesome and great on paper and I'd love to find a way to make them viable and useful in a 1500 pt list.
I considered them for a while, as the models are kinda cool, but I think all the imperial insignia they have (on literally every item of clothing) is a bit over the top. Rules wise, they're very expensive and very strong, but can only take their own land raider as a transport... which is actually pretty good.
Not really sure how you would use them to fill a niche in the army, though having a transport would certainly make them the fastest thing on your list I guess. They're damn hard to kill.
Maybe to give some mobility for objective securing and a durable CC threat to tie up threats to our artillery? They might do decently against vehicles without any invul saves and will absolutely destroy infantry and characters at the very least. Land Raider is a pretty significant point sink though, would it really survive going across the battlefield with the numerous lascannon/autocannon/other AV shots coming its way? I'm thinking they might do decently footslogging it with their 3++ and some clever LOS denial. Also for an HQ choice, Celestine might also be able to help significantly on her own, she seems like a popular HQ choice for people taking Custodes.
With Celestine and a squad of Custodian Guard you could squeeze in Cawl, a squad of Dakkastelans, a twin lascannon Ironstrider, and two Dunecrawlers (Icarus Array + Neutron Laser) to round out a 1500 pt list. Makes for an interesting Imperium Soup army at least.
So I'm relatively new to admech but I've played 4 or 5 games of 8th so far and primarily with my local gaming group, I probably won't ever go to a tournament' except one we had here at WW where friend points multiplied your winnings. We like to win, but at the cost of enjoyment for everyone involved. Anyway, being a returning 40k player from about 15 years ago I've essentially started from scratch with admech models and love their steampunk/cyberpunk aesthetic. What I've been playing so far is relatively small games for everyone to get used to 8th, mainly 50PL games but also because I don't have enough models to field more lol. With varying degrees of success:
[Heavy]
2x Neutronager with extra stubber
2x Dakkastellans
Standouts for me are definitely onagers and kastellans but also the snipers. I work on a multiple layers of significant threat, robots and onagers are an obvious threat. Being able to hide the onagers first turn makes them indispensable, I need at least another one of those. I'm thinking going forward we'll be mainly playing 1500 point games so I don't have a massive amount to go with if I want any kind of CP bank for the codex. I'm really hoping for cheaper HQ choices, Cawl feels like a tax at the sort of power lvl/points I'm working with, I can get 2 TPD almost for the same cost and invariably our HQ choices are pretty much aura buffers and repairers anyway so they just sit back with the onagers and kastellans.
Anyway to the point of this post: I'm thinking of running something like this:
Spoiler:
[HQ]
2x TPD volkite, stubber
[Troops]
5 x rangers inc 2 snipers, omnispex
5 x rangers inc 2 snipers, omnispex
5 x rangers inc 2 snipers, omnispex
[Elites]
1x data smith
3x5 corpuscarii priests
1x10 fulgurites
[Heavy]
2x Neutronager with stubbers
1x2 Dakkastellans
Idea being that Ive found CP to be indispensable for stuff like re rolling hits on neutrons etc and it's set to be even more important once we get codex strategms in the mix. So battalion feels like a minimum. Working on the multiple threat layers something at the front to distract from onagers and robots and vanguard/rangers are no threat going forward. So instead I've found the snipers great for taking out stuff like warlocks/farseers, commissars and sorcerers etc. So why not just sit 3 squads of them on my objectives? 6 snipers is a significant threat and with a TPD bubble and omnispex there's not really anywhere for characters to hide in plain sight. Plus they're almost guaranteed to benefit from cover even without shroudpsalm.
Then I'm left with what to put at the front that's reasonable cheap but also represents some form of threat and can take some hits. Corpuscarii seem like an obvious choice to me they put out a lot of shots and a lot of attacks in melee at good strength and have much better survivalists than vangaurd. With the added benefit of drowning something in dice if they get close enough. Which is almost a benefit, people may choose to ignore them because of the short range but they still have the charging mortal wounds shenanigans and exploding dice in both shooting and melee. I like the psychological impact they represent.
I notice people fielding 3 dakkastellans in a squad...is that using the understrength squad ruling? Because the index says +2 or +4 in a squad.
I may consider taser chickens (ironstriders) instead of the priests,lack of shooting puts me off but the mobility and the fact they pretty much wound everything on a 2 or 3 presents a good target for someone to need to deal with them, but I want to wait and see what the codex brings before I buy any priests or chickens as they're expensive as all hell to buy compared to everything else.
Course if the new strategms are arse then I'll probably look at fielding more robots, but for me any more than 2 squads feels cheap. Our gaming group runs an unofficial DBAD rule, we're all there to have fun if I bring 6 robots and just sit at the back and blow everything apart with dice sure, I might win but I'll soon get bored and my opponent won't want to go against me any time soon. I don't want to win at the expense of having a good time with my mates.
What do we with think of a 6 sniper line for objectives and added precision dakka? In my group I'm up against several flavours of power armour, 1ksons, Eldar and DEldar, tau and orks and imperial knights. There's a high degree diversity so the current tournament meta isn't all that representative I don't think.
Each of those Ranger units is costing you 100pts thats a lot of pts spent on troops you could be putting to use elsewhere while still meeting the requirements for a battalion
Jaynen wrote: Each of those Ranger units is costing you 100pts thats a lot of pts spent on troops you could be putting to use elsewhere while still meeting the requirements for a battalion
I considered this, and while one half of my brain went "Yeah, that's 171 points I could spend elsewhere, like another robot or squad of fulgurites or dragoons" the other half of my brain says "That's 150 points of troops tax that gives me very little in the way of anything" and I'm still then vulnerable to assault. So I was working on a 321 points of usefulness rather than 150 of trash. After all the snipers are essentially super long range cover-ignoring pseudo-plasma with mortal wounds and character sniping. People can't ignore those. Especially against psykers and aura bitches.
I guess I could use the 171 points to upgrade a TPD to cawl, still not mad keen on the troops tax though. I've also consider 2x10 fulgurites and 3x dragoons with naked vanguard. Seems more fun and flexible than just adding more to my back line dice machine, regardless of how useful sniping the crap out of characters may be.
Played a 2000 point game on saturday versus a khorne list as follows:
kharn
3x8 berserkers - power fist champ, 2x plasma pistols, all chain axes
10 cultists - shotgun champ, heavy stubber
decimator - butcher cannon
blood slaughterer
renegade knight lancer
3x rhino (zerkers and kharn here)
So I went 2nd, which wasn't too big of a deal, as he didn't have much shooting. What did make a difference is my complete inability to blow up kharn's rhino T1. I shot my nuetron, 3 plasma kataphrons, avenger gattling cannon and icarus autocannon at it and it still had 2w left I was a tad peeved at my lack of ability to kill stuff this game. If I could have knocked out his rhino T1, I could have focused on killing the other rhinos the next turn. I caught a squad of zerkers in the open on T2 and obliterated them, but the others got to stay inside their boxes until they jumped out and charged. We all know how that went... zerkers fighting twice is NUTS. Made a mistake with cawl and got him charged by some zerkers and they didn't even need their second fight phase to kill him. I had my knight on 1w and a TPD on 4w at the end when we called it. It was a kill point game.
I think kastellans would have done WONDERS in this game. all those s6 shots would have openned up the boxes for sure, and helped kill the stuff inside once it got out. I probably won't run the warden again, as the AGC didn't really do much for me. Next game I'm going to try the thermal cannon and an errant with the gauntlet and stormspear pod.
I am starting to think that I need to get over my dislike of balistarii and dragoons. I don't have much mobility and my little infantry gets killed too fast.
So what list did you run? Dakkastellans in protector are great just so many dice to roll forces a lot of saves and that was just with a TPD and not even Cawl when I played them
This is pretty much my whole collection (I discussed expansion earlier in the thread) and how I don't have kastellans right now, or dragoons (balistarii). I love the dominus unit as they are a great all-around buffer to the army, and I had just put Cawl together (whom I might drop next game) so I wanted to run him.
I ran the warden with gauntlet and autocannon, but next game I'm going to go with the melta cannon and see how that does.
WrentheFaceless wrote: So judging by the WD leaks, doesnt look like we're getting anything new. Shame
I didn't think we would. Point adjustments will suffice for me, plus the inevitable Fires of Cyraxus.
I didn't think we'd get anything major, but a Skitarii Prime as a cheap HQ, even if not the fluffiest thing ever made, wouldn't be unappreciated. Also, FoC has been coming out for 2 years, so I expect it by Christmas 2020.
I heard people over the Codex Mechanicus thread saying that Forge World confirmed they were waiting for the T'au and AdMech codices to go out before launching FoC. And that T'au will follow AdMech pretty closely.
I'll be really disappointed if they don't release anything this year for us. I would've been happy to have a plastic transport, dropping 100€ for the Triaros Armoured Conveyer (if in Omnissiah's name we're able to take it with FoC) would hurt pretty bad.
Here's to hoping we'll soon have the Forge World tactics in previews, as well as a drastic point adjustement in our army (like, cheaper Servitors ? And not ugly ?).
Octovol wrote: So I'm relatively new to admech but I've played 4 or 5 games of 8th so far and primarily with my local gaming group, I probably won't ever go to a tournament' except one we had here at WW where friend points multiplied your winnings. We like to win, but at the cost of enjoyment for everyone involved. Anyway, being a returning 40k player from about 15 years ago I've essentially started from scratch with admech models and love their steampunk/cyberpunk aesthetic. What I've been playing so far is relatively small games for everyone to get used to 8th, mainly 50PL games but also because I don't have enough models to field more lol. With varying degrees of success:
[Heavy]
2x Neutronager with extra stubber
2x Dakkastellans
Standouts for me are definitely onagers and kastellans but also the snipers. I work on a multiple layers of significant threat, robots and onagers are an obvious threat. Being able to hide the onagers first turn makes them indispensable, I need at least another one of those. I'm thinking going forward we'll be mainly playing 1500 point games so I don't have a massive amount to go with if I want any kind of CP bank for the codex. I'm really hoping for cheaper HQ choices, Cawl feels like a tax at the sort of power lvl/points I'm working with, I can get 2 TPD almost for the same cost and invariably our HQ choices are pretty much aura buffers and repairers anyway so they just sit back with the onagers and kastellans.
Anyway to the point of this post: I'm thinking of running something like this:
Spoiler:
[HQ]
2x TPD volkite, stubber
[Troops]
5 x rangers inc 2 snipers, omnispex
5 x rangers inc 2 snipers, omnispex
5 x rangers inc 2 snipers, omnispex
[Elites]
1x data smith
3x5 corpuscarii priests
1x10 fulgurites
[Heavy]
2x Neutronager with stubbers
1x2 Dakkastellans
Idea being that Ive found CP to be indispensable for stuff like re rolling hits on neutrons etc and it's set to be even more important once we get codex strategms in the mix. So battalion feels like a minimum. Working on the multiple threat layers something at the front to distract from onagers and robots and vanguard/rangers are no threat going forward. So instead I've found the snipers great for taking out stuff like warlocks/farseers, commissars and sorcerers etc. So why not just sit 3 squads of them on my objectives? 6 snipers is a significant threat and with a TPD bubble and omnispex there's not really anywhere for characters to hide in plain sight. Plus they're almost guaranteed to benefit from cover even without shroudpsalm.
Then I'm left with what to put at the front that's reasonable cheap but also represents some form of threat and can take some hits. Corpuscarii seem like an obvious choice to me they put out a lot of shots and a lot of attacks in melee at good strength and have much better survivalists than vangaurd. With the added benefit of drowning something in dice if they get close enough. Which is almost a benefit, people may choose to ignore them because of the short range but they still have the charging mortal wounds shenanigans and exploding dice in both shooting and melee. I like the psychological impact they represent.
I notice people fielding 3 dakkastellans in a squad...is that using the understrength squad ruling? Because the index says +2 or +4 in a squad.
I may consider taser chickens (ironstriders) instead of the priests,lack of shooting puts me off but the mobility and the fact they pretty much wound everything on a 2 or 3 presents a good target for someone to need to deal with them, but I want to wait and see what the codex brings before I buy any priests or chickens as they're expensive as all hell to buy compared to everything else.
Course if the new strategms are arse then I'll probably look at fielding more robots, but for me any more than 2 squads feels cheap. Our gaming group runs an unofficial DBAD rule, we're all there to have fun if I bring 6 robots and just sit at the back and blow everything apart with dice sure, I might win but I'll soon get bored and my opponent won't want to go against me any time soon. I don't want to win at the expense of having a good time with my mates.
What do we with think of a 6 sniper line for objectives and added precision dakka? In my group I'm up against several flavours of power armour, 1ksons, Eldar and DEldar, tau and orks and imperial knights. There's a high degree diversity so the current tournament meta isn't all that representative I don't think.
Thanks in advance.
Yeah, the ability to hide the Crawlers, then move and shoot is extremely important. And until we get forgeworld tactics, Cawl is stictly stronger than two TPDs (which are themselves extremely expensive for what they do most of the game), and one Spearhead is ideal.
Skitarii with special weapons are great in low point games. But once you get into the 1500+ range, their appeal starts fading fast. Too much effective anti-horde. The Arquebuses can be good, but I often see that they don't make their points back quickly enough.
You can run 3 Kastelans in a squadron; "up to 2" means that even if you run 1 robot, you have to increase power rating equivalent to 2 robots.
Yeah, Dragoons are expensive and annoying to build to boot. But they're pretty much the only fast, cheap CC unit we have access to.
If your meta has Eldar, Deldar, and Tau, you are going to want Icarus Crawlers. Practically everything in those armies is weak to Icarus.
Castellan Alaric wrote: Played a 2000 point game on saturday versus a khorne list as follows:
kharn
3x8 berserkers - power fist champ, 2x plasma pistols, all chain axes
10 cultists - shotgun champ, heavy stubber
decimator - butcher cannon
blood slaughterer
renegade knight lancer
3x rhino (zerkers and kharn here)
So I went 2nd, which wasn't too big of a deal, as he didn't have much shooting. What did make a difference is my complete inability to blow up kharn's rhino T1. I shot my nuetron, 3 plasma kataphrons, avenger gattling cannon and icarus autocannon at it and it still had 2w left I was a tad peeved at my lack of ability to kill stuff this game. If I could have knocked out his rhino T1, I could have focused on killing the other rhinos the next turn. I caught a squad of zerkers in the open on T2 and obliterated them, but the others got to stay inside their boxes until they jumped out and charged. We all know how that went... zerkers fighting twice is NUTS. Made a mistake with cawl and got him charged by some zerkers and they didn't even need their second fight phase to kill him. I had my knight on 1w and a TPD on 4w at the end when we called it. It was a kill point game.
I think kastellans would have done WONDERS in this game. all those s6 shots would have openned up the boxes for sure, and helped kill the stuff inside once it got out. I probably won't run the warden again, as the AGC didn't really do much for me. Next game I'm going to try the thermal cannon and an errant with the gauntlet and stormspear pod.
I am starting to think that I need to get over my dislike of balistarii and dragoons. I don't have much mobility and my little infantry gets killed too fast.
Any suggestions going forward, let me know
The nice thing about Dragoons is that they can tie up a few Rhinos without killing them. This forces them to fall back or disembark their infantry before they can get into CC with your artillery.
And yeah, Berserkers pretty much kill everything in CC. I would be perfectly okay sacrificing Cawl and Dominus to keep them off my Kastelans and Crawlers though. =\
Aaranis wrote: I heard people over the Codex Mechanicus thread saying that Forge World confirmed they were waiting for the T'au and AdMech codices to go out before launching FoC. And that T'au will follow AdMech pretty closely.
I'll be really disappointed if they don't release anything this year for us. I would've been happy to have a plastic transport, dropping 100€ for the Triaros Armoured Conveyer (if in Omnissiah's name we're able to take it with FoC) would hurt pretty bad.
Here's to hoping we'll soon have the Forge World tactics in previews, as well as a drastic point adjustement in our army (like, cheaper Servitors ? And not ugly ?).
If they're waiting on T'au codex, it won't be this year then. It's pretty much all but confirmed that this year is Imperium/Chaos with Xenos next year.
I didn't think we'd get anything major, but a Skitarii Prime as a cheap HQ, even if not the fluffiest thing ever made, wouldn't be unappreciated. Also, FoC has been coming out for 2 years, so I expect it by Christmas 2020.
What they could easily do is allow us to field an alpha as an HQ choice. There were specific traits in the Skitarii 7th codex for having an alpha as your warlord. Requires no additional models, just a different datasheet for the HQ version...more wounds and fnp on the hq for example.
Maybe different forge worlds could optionally field certain units as HQ? I know I'm fishing for false hope here though. Its not like I feel my TPD aren't any good, it's just that for the points I only ever use them to repair crawlers and and allow stuff to re-roll ones. They don't have a shiny role. Other army HQ are really good at melee or are psykers or have loads of mobility or something, they have something special. Ours don't feel special because you would never ever have a means to deliver one in any strategic sense, they just wait for stuff to get in range and plink away with their neutered weapons. Volkite needs some proper rules and the Beamer needs to be cheaper on a model that's already expensive.
I didn't think we'd get anything major, but a Skitarii Prime as a cheap HQ, even if not the fluffiest thing ever made, wouldn't be unappreciated. Also, FoC has been coming out for 2 years, so I expect it by Christmas 2020.
What they could easily do is allow us to field an alpha as an HQ choice. There were specific traits in the Skitarii 7th codex for having an alpha as your warlord. Requires no additional models, just a different datasheet for the HQ version...more wounds and fnp on the hq for example.
Maybe different forge worlds could optionally field certain units as HQ? I know I'm fishing for false hope here though. Its not like I feel my TPD aren't any good, it's just that for the points I only ever use them to repair crawlers and and allow stuff to re-roll ones. They don't have a shiny role. Other army HQ are really good at melee or are psykers or have loads of mobility or something, they have something special. Ours don't feel special because you would never ever have a means to deliver one in any strategic sense, they just wait for stuff to get in range and plink away with their neutered weapons. Volkite needs some proper rules and the Beamer needs to be cheaper on a model that's already expensive.
If they do Skitarii Prime, it may be like how Tempestors work. You take the Alpha as your HQ, and you have a 4-man special weapons command team to go with it.
If they do Skitarii Prime, it may be like how Tempestors work. You take the Alpha as your HQ, and you have a 4-man special weapons command team to go with it.
That would be nice. I had hoped for that. There are at least two crested heads too, one could be confirmed as the Alpha. But I am not holding my breath either.
What do you mean we didn't get anything new?
What about separate Cawl :^)
We also got these revealed:
2 CP to take another Canticle - fringe uses due to the price, maybe Cover on the opponent's turn and offensive on your turn?
1 free VP after turn 1 Tactical objective if you run Cawl (aka if you roll for your Canticle WHICH CONFIRMS: pick OR roll EVERY TURN! Huzzah, the non-argument about it has ended)
rvd1ofakind wrote: What do you mean we didn't get anything new?
What about separate Cawl :^)
We also got these revealed:
2 CP to take another Canticle - fringe uses due to the price, maybe Cover on the opponent's turn and offensive on your turn?
1 free VP after turn 1 Tactical objective if you run Cawl (aka if you roll for your Canticle WHICH CONFIRMS: pick OR roll EVERY TURN! Huzzah, the non-argument about it has ended)
You can Litany of the Electromancer immediately after fighting maybe?
You can Litany of the Electromancer immediately after fighting maybe?
If only the canticles themselves got a revision to make some of them worth using!
Litany has almost won me a match incidentally, needed to take out two units on turn 7 one of which was warlord. Rolled two 6s on my litany roll and enough mortal wounds to kill warlord and take out the other unit. Earned me 7 vp on the last turn. Still lost 15 to 14 though >.<
Castellan Alaric wrote: Played a 2000 point game on saturday versus a khorne list as follows:
kharn
3x8 berserkers - power fist champ, 2x plasma pistols, all chain axes
10 cultists - shotgun champ, heavy stubber
decimator - butcher cannon
blood slaughterer
renegade knight lancer
3x rhino (zerkers and kharn here)
So I went 2nd, which wasn't too big of a deal, as he didn't have much shooting. What did make a difference is my complete inability to blow up kharn's rhino T1. I shot my nuetron, 3 plasma kataphrons, avenger gattling cannon and icarus autocannon at it and it still had 2w left I was a tad peeved at my lack of ability to kill stuff this game. If I could have knocked out his rhino T1, I could have focused on killing the other rhinos the next turn. I caught a squad of zerkers in the open on T2 and obliterated them, but the others got to stay inside their boxes until they jumped out and charged. We all know how that went... zerkers fighting twice is NUTS. Made a mistake with cawl and got him charged by some zerkers and they didn't even need their second fight phase to kill him. I had my knight on 1w and a TPD on 4w at the end when we called it. It was a kill point game.
I think kastellans would have done WONDERS in this game. all those s6 shots would have openned up the boxes for sure, and helped kill the stuff inside once it got out. I probably won't run the warden again, as the AGC didn't really do much for me. Next game I'm going to try the thermal cannon and an errant with the gauntlet and stormspear pod.
I am starting to think that I need to get over my dislike of balistarii and dragoons. I don't have much mobility and my little infantry gets killed too fast.
Any suggestions going forward, let me know
The nice thing about Dragoons is that they can tie up a few Rhinos without killing them. This forces them to fall back or disembark their infantry before they can get into CC with your artillery.
And yeah, Berserkers pretty much kill everything in CC. I would be perfectly okay sacrificing Cawl and Dominus to keep them off my Kastelans and Crawlers though. =\
Ya I'm starting to think I need to get over my prejudice about the silly looking balistarii and dragoon models and drink the coolaid with 4-6 of them and some kastellans as well. I was thinking of bringing a spearhead of marines with a captain and some lascannon devastators, but I could just run balistarii and stay admech. Plus they're a bit more survivable and are much more mobile
I'm (finally) getting Kastelans, now that my order for Castle-pattern pauldrons and heads is on its way.
I have 3 Onagers, 2x Kastelans (unordered), a Datasmith (unordered), 2x5 Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus each, about 30 Vanguard (mostly unbuilt, only 3 have plasma), 2x Dominii, Cawl, 5x Infiltrators, 5x unbuilt Sicarians, and a Knight Crusader. Mostly holding off on loadouts until the codex is coming, but it seems that I have a solid force right now.
My assembly and painting progress has ground to a halt, however, new codices will do that. I'm not sure what to do right now, other than paint other things.
I'm hoping Power Sword Infiltrators and Transonic Blade Ruststalkers get better, I like them far more than chordclaw/razor.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Alaric, you might as well wait a bit before investing more into AdMech. Who knows what the Codex will shake up.
Ya I'm not buying anything right now, I'm just thinking through was good forward progress will be. I don't see kastellans going down in utility, do you? Maybe a points fluctuation but they'll still be solid. It would be nice to have a sort of skitarii alpha HQ that'd be cheaper than a dominus that maybe just granted rerolls to skitarii units, but I think that's wishlisting too much lol
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Alaric, you might as well wait a bit before investing more into AdMech. Who knows what the Codex will shake up.
Ya I'm not buying anything right now, I'm just thinking through was good forward progress will be. I don't see kastellans going down in utility, do you? Maybe a points fluctuation but they'll still be solid. It would be nice to have a sort of skitarii alpha HQ that'd be cheaper than a dominus that maybe just granted rerolls to skitarii units, but I think that's wishlisting too much lol
cheers
Given all their drawbacks, they don't really need an adjustment, but I feel like people who only are on the receiving end will complain enough and we will get a nerf. I know that is cynical, but it is what I expect. Much like how AdMech got an overall gutting in 8th because the WarCon got universal hate.
I am hoping we get access to Land Raiders and Rhinos, but not holding my breath. I expect this Codex to be bare-bones, sadly. Maybe point drop for our Kataphrons and that is about it.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Alaric, you might as well wait a bit before investing more into AdMech. Who knows what the Codex will shake up.
Ya I'm not buying anything right now, I'm just thinking through was good forward progress will be. I don't see kastellans going down in utility, do you? Maybe a points fluctuation but they'll still be solid. It would be nice to have a sort of skitarii alpha HQ that'd be cheaper than a dominus that maybe just granted rerolls to skitarii units, but I think that's wishlisting too much lol
cheers
Given all their drawbacks, they don't really need an adjustment, but I feel like people who only are on the receiving end will complain enough and we will get a nerf. I know that is cynical, but it is what I expect. Much like how AdMech got an overall gutting in 8th because the WarCon got universal hate.
I am hoping we get access to Land Raiders and Rhinos, but not holding my breath. I expect this Codex to be bare-bones, sadly. Maybe point drop for our Kataphrons and that is about it.
I don't think any of the prior codexes really nerfed anything. It's mostly buffs to underused items, like Power Fist. They did nerf flyers and Daemons via FAQ though.
WarCon got universal hate because it was 500+ points of free stuff. I'm sure even we felt dirty playing it... until we ran into Super Friends or Eldar in general, anyway.
I doubt we will get transports or a cheaper HQ. I think they will give us a mobility dogma and the Arcana Mechanicum to buff our Dominuses. Who knows? Maybe relic spam will make a comeback. Something like lots of Skitarii and Dominuses giving overlapping bubble bonuses.
I only played WarCon against Eldar douche detachments or Necron broken detachments. Anything else, I just ran CAD.
It was definatly top tier, but still not as powerful as the two I listed above, but versus other armies like Tyranids or Orks, it wasn't even fun to play against them.
So I didnt had the chance to tell you something about my tournament. As I was saying it was 1850, I had 2 Dakkastelans, Cawl, 2 Neutronagers, 1 Icarus Onager, 3 Vanguard units (6,6,7), Knight Crusader, 2 Dragoons, Datasmith.
I got 9th place with only 7 points short to third place (wtf) and 11 points more than 10th...something fishy was going on I can tell you.
So first game against Blood Angels, Dante, 2 laser Preds, 2 Assbacks with melta filling, Land Raider with tons of Lasers and some Vets.
Tabled him turn 5, not much to tell. He killed 2 Onagers but my Dragoons were quick enough to deny his Land Raider shooting.
Game 2 against Astra Miitarum with 40 Drops...22 Las canons (a ton of dropping Tarantulas), Elyisians with melta times 2, elysians with plasma times 2, 3 Assassins, 6 walkers and a hand full of mortar teams. Well, basically the Culexus Assassin kicked me in the nuts because it dropped 5 inches away from my datasmith and killed him in melee so that was double shooting for my kastelans gone. Turn 3 he tried to finish off my knight with 14 lascannons, 4 melta and 4 plasma and did not make a single wound. That was loltastic. I lost 5:15 though since my maelstrom game was one of the worst I ever had (turn 1 draw six cards and...well, no points for me).
Game 3 was against 80 conscrits and salamanders. 11 multimelta trikes, librarian, assassins (of course), and some astra militarum plasma drop. We played relic and gues who got the relic? right, conscripts. Since we had that weir mission where you are -1 to hit if over 18 inches away, his trikes did 11 wounds on my knight and i killed his stormraven and about 8 trikes that turn. Game went to turn 6 and I nearly tabled him but his conscripts survied in a fricking ruin with the relic in their hands and their home marker under their feet. 9:11 for him. He only killed my vanguard and one Onager and survived with 1 unit of 4 and 1 unit of 7 conscripts. I hate that ysou cant charge with vehicles into ruins!
all in all I mind that I only got ninth but on the other hand it was a close tournament with as I said only 7 pints short for 3rd. The list worked suprisinlgy good, especially against 22 lascas, 8 melta and 8 plasma and against 11 multimelta and a ton of plasma.
Winner of the tournament was a shining spear ynnari list. Damn that was mean.
Iago40k wrote: So I didnt had the chance to tell you something about my tournament. As I was saying it was 1850, I had 2 Dakkastelans, Cawl, 2 Neutronagers, 1 Icarus Onager, 3 Vanguard units (6,6,7), Knight Crusader, 2 Dragoons, Datasmith.
Game 2 against Astra Miitarum with 40 Drops...22 Las canons (a ton of dropping Tarantulas), Elyisians with melta times 2, elysians with plasma times 2, 3 Assassins, 6 walkers and a hand full of mortar teams. Well, basically the Culexus Assassin kicked me in the nuts because it dropped 5 inches away from my datasmith and killed him in melee so that was double shooting for my kastelans gone.
But how did a Culexus drop 5" away from anything. The Culexus has to abide by the 9" away deep strike rules. The assassin that can be dropped 4-9" away is the Callidus. Just wondering how they pulled it off if it was a Culexus as I like to run 1 in competitive games too.
Iago40k wrote: So I didnt had the chance to tell you something about my tournament. As I was saying it was 1850, I had 2 Dakkastelans, Cawl, 2 Neutronagers, 1 Icarus Onager, 3 Vanguard units (6,6,7), Knight Crusader, 2 Dragoons, Datasmith.
Game 2 against Astra Miitarum with 40 Drops...22 Las canons (a ton of dropping Tarantulas), Elyisians with melta times 2, elysians with plasma times 2, 3 Assassins, 6 walkers and a hand full of mortar teams. Well, basically the Culexus Assassin kicked me in the nuts because it dropped 5 inches away from my datasmith and killed him in melee so that was double shooting for my kastelans gone.
But how did a Culexus drop 5" away from anything. The Culexus has to abide by the 9" away deep strike rules. The assassin that can be dropped 4-9" away is the Callidus. Just wondering how they pulled it off if it was a Culexus as I like to run 1 in competitive games too.
Must have been a Callidus, or they cheated. Culexus has no way to land at 5" that I know of.
rvd1ofakind wrote: 0 AdMech in the Nova invitational, hope the Codex throws us a bone
I look forward to the day when all Codices are out and 8th has most of the bugs worked out. Then I might pay attention to tournaments again. Right now, it is pretty abysmal. I know a guy who is taking Mortar Spam and others taking Assassin Spam and its just like, why are you playing 40k?
Jackal444 wrote: I've learned to ask if anything or anyone in their army can deep strike at under 9" like the Callidus just to make sure for my bubbles
Can you deep strike into someones deployment zone after the first turn if there is more than a 9" hole?
rvd1ofakind wrote: 0 AdMech in the Nova invitational, hope the Codex throws us a bone
I look forward to the day when all Codices are out and 8th has most of the bugs worked out. Then I might pay attention to tournaments again. Right now, it is pretty abysmal. I know a guy who is taking Mortar Spam and others taking Assassin Spam and its just like, why are you playing 40k?
rvd1ofakind wrote: 0 AdMech in the Nova invitational, hope the Codex throws us a bone
I look forward to the day when all Codices are out and 8th has most of the bugs worked out. Then I might pay attention to tournaments again. Right now, it is pretty abysmal. I know a guy who is taking Mortar Spam and others taking Assassin Spam and its just like, why are you playing 40k?
"To win" I assume
Then play Call of Duty or MtG or something without a hobby component. I guess that is just my bias, but I see the hardcore WAAC tourney crowd as mostly awful. I also spent over a decade playing Magic and have seen how nasty the high-end tourney crowd can get and just a big "no thanks" to all that.
Jackal444 wrote: I've learned to ask if anything or anyone in their army can deep strike at under 9" like the Callidus just to make sure for my bubbles
Can you deep strike into someones deployment zone after the first turn if there is more than a 9" hole?
For sure - if they give you the opening, you can exploit it. Make sure to have your units equally spaced out to cover those 9" bubbles and block deep strikers behind your lines.
rvd1ofakind wrote: 0 AdMech in the Nova invitational, hope the Codex throws us a bone
I look forward to the day when all Codices are out and 8th has most of the bugs worked out. Then I might pay attention to tournaments again. Right now, it is pretty abysmal. I know a guy who is taking Mortar Spam and others taking Assassin Spam and its just like, why are you playing 40k?
"To win" I assume
Then play Call of Duty or MtG or something without a hobby component. I guess that is just my bias, but I see the hardcore WAAC tourney crowd as mostly awful. I also spent over a decade playing Magic and have seen how nasty the high-end tourney crowd can get and just a big "no thanks" to all that.
I'd say people can play whatever they want competitivelly.
rvd1ofakind wrote: 0 AdMech in the Nova invitational, hope the Codex throws us a bone
I look forward to the day when all Codices are out and 8th has most of the bugs worked out. Then I might pay attention to tournaments again. Right now, it is pretty abysmal. I know a guy who is taking Mortar Spam and others taking Assassin Spam and its just like, why are you playing 40k?
"To win" I assume
Then play Call of Duty or MtG or something without a hobby component. I guess that is just my bias, but I see the hardcore WAAC tourney crowd as mostly awful. I also spent over a decade playing Magic and have seen how nasty the high-end tourney crowd can get and just a big "no thanks" to all that.
I'd say people can play whatever they want competitivelly.
And that is the beauty of opinions. We all have them and they can be different.
Ironically, a lot of the lists seem to be preparing for other horde decks through volume of fire. AdMech and Knights have surprisingly decent win rates in the meta. (Unfortunately, tournament results are decided by streaks, not win rates.)
Suzuteo wrote: Ironically, a lot of the lists seem to be preparing for other horde decks through volume of fire. AdMech and Knights have surprisingly decent win rates in the meta. (Unfortunately, tournament results are decided by streaks, not win rates.)
Loving that Reece took Lias. That is a project I am waiting on for official FW support, but can't wait to build, though our lists are vastly different. Curious how Lias does.
Juice (Stephen Fore) is the guy with the mortars I was talking about. Wonder how he will do. That is a LOT of dice to roll. To me, that list looks so incredibly boring, but he is a consummate tourney player, so he doesn't care! He is selling it as soon as Nova is over!
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 143pts]: Smoke Launchers
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 143pts]: Smoke Launchers
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
++ Total: [60 PL, 1250pts] ++
Without going into a lot of detail, I played and beat Druhkari. The MVPs of the match were the Neutronagers, Robots, and Dragoons. The Ballistarri and Rangers were a last minute addition because I was unable to finish construction of my 3rd Onager. What do you guys think of the list? It felt very solid, and I will likely be playing lists very close to this one going forward.
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 143pts]: Smoke Launchers
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 143pts]: Smoke Launchers
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
++ Total: [60 PL, 1250pts] ++
Without going into a lot of detail, I played and beat Druhkari. The MVPs of the match were the Neutronagers, Robots, and Dragoons. The Ballistarri and Rangers were a last minute addition because I was unable to finish construction of my 3rd Onager. What do you guys think of the list? It felt very solid, and I will likely be playing lists very close to this one going forward.
You only can have two Fast Attack squadrons in a Spearhead detachment. (I made the same mistake before. Haha.)
If you're expanding toward 2000 points, I would definitely look into adding 2 Kastelans and 2 Icarus Crawlers.
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 143pts]: Smoke Launchers
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 143pts]: Smoke Launchers
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
++ Total: [60 PL, 1250pts] ++
Without going into a lot of detail, I played and beat Druhkari. The MVPs of the match were the Neutronagers, Robots, and Dragoons. The Ballistarri and Rangers were a last minute addition because I was unable to finish construction of my 3rd Onager. What do you guys think of the list? It felt very solid, and I will likely be playing lists very close to this one going forward.
Nice list and it will provide wins. Dont forget point wise.
1) ballistari with lashc. Are good but onager better? So use them only if you need the h slot or playing till 1500. Same goes for destroyer. You can use a plasma squad in lower point games for mobile robots with a dominus and overcharge.
2 ) as you build on point you should definetly consider a third robot. Or a second group. More onagers. And ofc some short of meat shield. Imperial gard works for me. Cause i also use tempestus. Cheap deep strike.
3) Another important aspect you need to start considering is command points. Might not be visible now but its clear if you follow a bit the upcoming changes. Cheap astra militarum hq s can provide enough to work with.
4 ) considering all i v said so far i strongly suggest . Core Ad mech + counter unit( f priest or rustalkers). Core has minimum 4 onagers 3-4 robots 2 dragoons priest . Then maybe 2 battalions for command points one meat shield and one deep strike. Always abjust wih playstyle and personal pref.
5) if you going ad mech fluff - solo. You might need to consider
A) melee robots
B) mpre dragoons
C) infiltrators
D) 10 man vanguard and a combi or broad spectrum.
E) point wise wont be as effective obviously. And as we grow points in games more enemy optios create big issues. Like how you gonna deal with ig spam or any spam. You ll need 4 robots and 2 icarus onager min. How to deal with an alpha strike. Need meat shield and counter units. And finally how younll win on objectves. Obviously some fast dragoons usually screening not running and at leasr some deep strike.
Hope i helped you a bit to organise your expansion.
I think everything would be improved if we didn't have to play 2000-point games. Instead, we should bring up to 2500 points, but we only deploy 1250 or less of it on the board.
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 151pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis heavy stubber
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 151pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis heavy stubber
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
++ Total: [105 PL, 1998pts] ++
Drop a group of Robots add an icarus onager. 10 shots still. Drop also the vanguards and get 2 *2 dragoons. If you get extra points try a secomd datasmith with so many robots. Tpd no need!!
An interesting point my opponent raised today:
For determining Canticles, one can either, for the entire match, pick one, or roll for them.
I always saw it as being able to mix and match picking and rolling.
"At the start of each battle round, [you can pick the canticle]. Alternatively, [you can roll for it]".
-----
On another note: Belisarius with Torsion Breachers with fething ridiculous.
You can mix and match rolling and picking. The rule for rolling just states "Alternatively, you can randomly determine which Canticle is in effect by rolling a D6 and consulting the table below." This is brought up after the rules for picking which state "At the start of each battle round" you can pick. The "Alternatively" is in regards to picking when you choose your Canticle each round, not for the whole game. I've no idea how someone could interpret any of this as being "you get to pick or roll, but you don't get to do both over the course of the game".
Buddingsquaw wrote: An interesting point my opponent raised today:
For determining Canticles, one can either, for the entire match, pick one, or roll for them.
I always saw it as being able to mix and match picking and rolling.
"At the start of each battle round, [you can pick the canticle]. Alternatively, [you can roll for it]".
-----
On another note: Belisarius with Torsion Breachers with fething ridiculous.
I can understand his misinterpretation. However, recent FAQ and clarified this. You may pick or roll. And do whichever on any turn you please.
So I've got my starting 1000pt list ( Cawl, 2 Tech-Priest Domini, 2 Ten Man Ranger Squads and 2 Onager Dunestalkers ) what should I add next Kataphron Destroyers, Fulgurite Electro-Priests or Sicarian Infiltrators?
Rolsheen wrote: So I've got my starting 1000pt list ( Cawl, 2 Tech-Priest Domini, 2 Ten Man Ranger Squads and 2 Onager Dunestalkers ) what should I add next Kataphron Destroyers, Fulgurite Electro-Priests or Sicarian Infiltrators?
You dont need tech priest especislly not 3 . You dont need rangers only if you take 2*5 with 2 t arqueb. You definetly need Dragoons and Robots. As many as possible. Min 2*2 units each. I also use priests
Rolsheen wrote: So I've got my starting 1000pt list ( Cawl, 2 Tech-Priest Domini, 2 Ten Man Ranger Squads and 2 Onager Dunestalkers ) what should I add next Kataphron Destroyers, Fulgurite Electro-Priests or Sicarian Infiltrators?
You dont need tech priest especislly not 3 . You dont need rangers only if you take 2*5 with 2 t arqueb. You definetly need Dragoons and Robots. As many as possible. Min 2*2 units each. I also use priests
So take Electro-Priests? I was leaning towards Kataphrons for a 3rd troop choice
I will be attending a 1k pt tournament at my LGS and have been throwing around some list ideas and thought I could get some feedback here.
my LGS wont be allowing FW and from what I can gather the meta should look close to this:
1x Tzeentch Demons, 1x Ynaari (wave serpent/wraithguard spam), 1x Admech, 2x SM (1 ultra, 1 salamanders), 1x Blood Angels, 1x Nightlords, 1x Imperial Guard, 1x Nercons, 1x Orkz, 1x Tyranids.
Rolsheen wrote: So I've got my starting 1000pt list ( Cawl, 2 Tech-Priest Domini, 2 Ten Man Ranger Squads and 2 Onager Dunestalkers ) what should I add next Kataphron Destroyers, Fulgurite Electro-Priests or Sicarian Infiltrators?
You dont need tech priest especislly not 3 . You dont need rangers only if you take 2*5 with 2 t arqueb. You definetly need Dragoons and Robots. As many as possible. Min 2*2 units each. I also use priests
So take Electro-Priests? I was leaning towards Kataphrons for a 3rd troop choice
I would make 2 Kastelans and Data-smith (272 points) a priority.
Samaca wrote: I will be attending a 1k pt tournament at my LGS and have been throwing around some list ideas and thought I could get some feedback here.
my LGS wont be allowing FW and from what I can gather the meta should look close to this:
1x Tzeentch Demons, 1x Ynaari (wave serpent/wraithguard spam), 1x Admech, 2x SM (1 ultra, 1 salamanders), 1x Blood Angels, 1x Nightlords, 1x Imperial Guard, 1x Nercons, 1x Orkz, 1x Tyranids.
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts] . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts] . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
++ Total: [50 PL, 985pts] ++
Thanks in advance for looking over my lists, I'd really appreciate any feedback on them or any advice against the armies I listed.
Snipers actually don't do a very good job against characters. Might as well rely on an Icarus Crawler or Kastelans for volume fire.
Your well-rounded list doesn't seem to have a real strategy behind it.
Your spam list is your best list, but it's going to lose the instant they get in range to fight. You need ways to shut down Chaos Rhino before they drop two squads of Berserkers ontop of you.
Rolsheen wrote: So I've got my starting 1000pt list ( Cawl, 2 Tech-Priest Domini, 2 Ten Man Ranger Squads and 2 Onager Dunestalkers ) what should I add next Kataphron Destroyers, Fulgurite Electro-Priests or Sicarian Infiltrators?
You dont need tech priest especislly not 3 . You dont need rangers only if you take 2*5 with 2 t arqueb. You definetly need Dragoons and Robots. As many as possible. Min 2*2 units each. I also use priests
So take Electro-Priests? I was leaning towards Kataphrons for a 3rd troop choice
I would make 2 Kastelans and Data-smith (272 points) a priority.
Rolsheen wrote: Thanks but I don't like the models or the price
I see. Well, two Icarus Crawlers is not as good for anti-horde, but they're the next best thing. You can also take a detachment of AdMech-aligned SMs for Twin Assault Cannons on Razorbacks.
I don't understand people who come asking for competitive advice and then refuse to use some models becuase they are OP/ugly. What's the point of asking for the advice? >_>
rvd1ofakind wrote:I don't understand people who come asking for competitive advice and then refuse to use some models becuase they are OP/ugly. What's the point of asking for the advice? >_>
and people assuming everybody plays competitively just shows their own ignorance. I asked out of my 3 choices which would be best, not how to mould my army into the same as everybody else's.
rvd1ofakind wrote:I don't understand people who come asking for competitive advice and then refuse to use some models becuase they are OP/ugly. What's the point of asking for the advice? >_>
and people assuming everybody plays competitively just shows their own ignorance. I asked out of my 3 choices which would be best, not how to mould my army into the same as everybody else's.
If you don't play competitively you don't NEED advice. That's the point. RIght now by getting advice you are fooling other people that you are "not playing competitively" even though you're getting help online and looking up strategy guides/forums. That's like going for a street fight against kindergarteners
rvd1ofakind wrote:I don't understand people who come asking for competitive advice and then refuse to use some models becuase they are OP/ugly. What's the point of asking for the advice? >_>
and people assuming everybody plays competitively just shows their own ignorance. I asked out of my 3 choices which would be best, not how to mould my army into the same as everybody else's.
If you aren't playing competitively, you don't need to ask for advice on a tactics forum. You just play what is fun or looks cool, etc. So yea, that assumption is pretty justified.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I don't understand people who come asking for competitive advice and then refuse to use some models becuase they are OP/ugly. What's the point of asking for the advice? >_>
Got an admin warning for saying the same with a bit more angry words in ad mech list.
He does not want advice nor he is like the rest of us. He is unique playing unique armies and we here to serve
rvd1ofakind wrote: I don't understand people who come asking for competitive advice and then refuse to use some models becuase they are OP/ugly. What's the point of asking for the advice? >_>
Got an admin warning for saying the same with a bit more angry words in ad mech list.
He does not want advice nor he is like the rest of us. He is unique playing unique armies and we here to serve
Be as facetious as possible instead of using bad words. It get the point across and avoid the bans/warnings
I am looking for a quick opinion, I know it is best to try and keep Cawl out of melee, but I have heard (and witnessed) that he is a beast when needed to be. My question is, which melee weapon do you find yourself using more often than not? I kept talking myself into using the Arc Scourge, but the more I look at it, I realized that the Hive may have been the way to go? Is it based entirely off of the toughness of the unit he is fighting?
I assume that if I roll for Canticles, or just select Machine Might to get him to 6S, I should just always use Hive vs T3-5 units?
KampfKrote wrote: I am looking for a quick opinion, I know it is best to try and keep Cawl out of melee, but I have heard (and witnessed) that he is a beast when needed to be. My question is, which melee weapon do you find yourself using more often than not? I kept talking myself into using the Arc Scourge, but the more I look at it, I realized that the Hive may have been the way to go? Is it based entirely off of the toughness of the unit he is fighting?
I assume that if I roll for Canticles, or just select Machine Might to get him to 6S, I should just always use Hive vs T3-5 units?
The beauty of Cawl is you don't have to choose between the Arc Scourge and the mechandrite hive, the mechandrite hive automatically gets its 2d6 attacks every fight phase, no need to sacrifice any of Cawl's attacks for it. The only choice you need to make in melee is between the Arc Scourge and the Omnissian axe.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Semi-confimed stratagem:
1 CP to explode a vehicle when it dies(your vehicle)
Yay exploding dragoons
That is a Death Guard strategem, right?
Yes, however there were rumors before about the exact same stratagem for AdMech and having this here, and the amount of re-used stratagems with different names - it is a forgone conclusion
rvd1ofakind wrote: Semi-confimed stratagem:
1 CP to explode a vehicle when it dies(your vehicle)
Yay exploding dragoons
That is a Death Guard strategem, right?
Yes, however there were rumors before about the exact same stratagem for AdMech and having this here, and the amount of re-used stratagems with different names - it is a forgone conclusion
Definitely would benefit us with our huge amounts of vehicles. Especially Dragoons.
Heh, we'll need a lot more than that. Our best army in Nova got 61st place :/
Which is why I've long since abandoned AdMech until one of these fixes them:
a) codex
b) december book
c) FAQ
rvd1ofakind wrote: Heh, we'll need a lot more than that. Our best army in Nova got 61st place :/
Which is why I've long since abandoned AdMech until one of these fixes them:
a) codex
b) december book
c) FAQ
Jaynen wrote: I still like our army, but you have to mix imperial greatest hits collection in order to make anything really good.
I do decent without adding anything. We will never wind up top-tier, but I am fine with that. Seeing the NoVA lists made me throw up in my mouth a bit. I am content being semi-competitive, because playing in those hyper-competitive environments is pretty awful.
KampfKrote wrote: I am looking for a quick opinion, I know it is best to try and keep Cawl out of melee, but I have heard (and witnessed) that he is a beast when needed to be. My question is, which melee weapon do you find yourself using more often than not? I kept talking myself into using the Arc Scourge, but the more I look at it, I realized that the Hive may have been the way to go? Is it based entirely off of the toughness of the unit he is fighting?
I assume that if I roll for Canticles, or just select Machine Might to get him to 6S, I should just always use Hive vs T3-5 units?
Cawl is really strong in melee. I would not hesitate to charge him as a last line of defense. I think the rule is Scourge against vehicles and 1W <T6 units, Axe against everything else.
Never use Hive. You don't get the bonus attacks every attack, you get it every fight, which means your Cawl versus their unit.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Semi-confimed stratagem:
1 CP to explode a vehicle when it dies(your vehicle)
Yay exploding dragoons
Yayyy.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Heh, we'll need a lot more than that. Our best army in Nova got 61st place :/
Which is why I've long since abandoned AdMech until one of these fixes them:
a) codex
b) december book
c) FAQ
What's the list? Kastelan spam?
I think the big problem right now is that the armies to beat all use dominant strategies, and we're a very reactive army. AdMech and Knights actually have very good win rates. But win rates don't determine tournaments; win streaks do. There is a very good chance we will run into an army that will blow us out with fast, aggressive CC. For example, there's not much we can do to stop Green Tide from rolling over us. (Smart Ork players play dumb; advance 1500 points of Boyz at us without any concern for casualties. It's why I really don't think more than 4 Kastelans is a good idea. It's never a matter of whether or not you will get into CC for some armies, but when.)
I agree its not so much the big numbers i have problems facing. Its the cc in great numbers we cant handle. And yes i agree with suzuteo when is the key question. If i get 2 rounds pure shooting usually its all over.
And yes i won vs orcs because Cawl tpd datasmith priests and usually every single model ( from commsar to commanders and datasmits)goes melee with canticles( pick reroll 1s on charge +1 next one prefered 4-5rounrs). Not to mention different positioning of my Robots and onagers. More protected more at the back.
Yoda79 wrote: I agree its not so much the big numbers i have problems facing. Its the cc in great numbers we cant handle. And yes i agree with suzuteo when is the key question. If i get 2 rounds pure shooting usually its all over.
And yes i won vs orcs because Cawl tpd datasmith priests and usually every single model ( from commsar to commanders and datasmits)goes melee with canticles( pick reroll 1s on charge +1 next one prefered 4-5rounrs). Not to mention different positioning of my Robots and onagers. More protected more at the back.
Exactly. It's a cascading effect. If even one Boy survives your shooting and gets into CC with your Crawler or Kastelans, your effectiveness drops by a huge amount. You have to kill as many of them as possible before they get to you.
I would be careful about sending the Data-smith though. Especially if you haven't switched your Kastelans to Aegis beforehand; it's truly over if they get into CC while you're in Protector.
Yoda79 wrote: I agree its not so much the big numbers i have problems facing. Its the cc in great numbers we cant handle. And yes i agree with suzuteo when is the key question. If i get 2 rounds pure shooting usually its all over.
And yes i won vs orcs because Cawl tpd datasmith priests and usually every single model ( from commsar to commanders and datasmits)goes melee with canticles( pick reroll 1s on charge +1 next one prefered 4-5rounrs). Not to mention different positioning of my Robots and onagers. More protected more at the back.
Exactly. It's a cascading effect. If even one Boy survives your shooting and gets into CC with your Crawler or Kastelans, your effectiveness drops by a huge amount. You have to kill as many of them as possible before they get to you.
I would be careful about sending the Data-smith though. Especially if you haven't switched your Kastelans to Aegis beforehand; it's truly over if they get into CC while you're in Protector.
They can fight in Protector, so its not that big of a deal if he dies as long as it was a worthwhile trade to ensure they are freed up during your next shooting phase. If the Datasmith will make a difference, send him in. Between his Pistol and Fist, he can put down some damage.
I think the big problem right now is that the armies to beat all use dominant strategies, and we're a very reactive army. AdMech and Knights actually have very good win rates. But win rates don't determine tournaments; win streaks do. There is a very good chance we will run into an army that will blow us out with fast, aggressive CC. For example, there's not much we can do to stop Green Tide from rolling over us. (Smart Ork players play dumb; advance 1500 points of Boyz at us without any concern for casualties. It's why I really don't think more than 4 Kastelans is a good idea. It's never a matter of whether or not you will get into CC for some armies, but when.)
I can attest to a Khorne themed chaos army getting into my lines and ruining my day. My shooting didn't take the rhinos full of berzerkers out early enough and when the hit, it was all over. I needed balistarii over kataphrons to core the tanks more reliably with lascannons versus plasma. Now the plasma took out the guys once they were out, but I only managed to stop 1/3 units from getting into combat and it was over...Then his lancer came in to back him up and well we know how that went lol
Thanks, Alaric! The Magos from FW without his abeyant with an added Vokite and stubber to be WYSIWYG. I used some spares from various AdMech kits and a Techmarine to do that.
And I love painting white - so Metalica was a natural choice for me.
Now i can say for sure. I have cheched most imperium combinations.
1) Solo ad mech wont be same competitive as imperium soup.
And personally i ws trying to make one as most imperium defence fluff novel battles are.
2) dragoons are superb. Wont leave without 1*2 or 1*3 unit. But
They are an option to protect my flank and if not usd as screener good for fast obj harass lock a vehicle far from my lines. No overwatch is a real disadvantage vs charge play first enemies.
3) Still the best by far option are astra militarum soldiers. Cheap mass . Can bubble enough to get to round two of shooting. Force enemy to kill them and they are a bad target for the enemy. Orders make them effective as was our vsnguard in 7th with their buffs. Move move move ,rapid 2 , and fall back and shoot prolly the most effective soldierd in all imperium. I dont like to use them or paint them still they are by far the best.
4) cheap hq are so valuable to create detachments with lots of cp s. Extremely importan.
5) their deep strike tempetus combintion i by far the best cheap deep strike option.
I will anticipate the codex. Looking for serious changes on the top matters we seen so far. Anti psych. Tranport cost effective units especially plethora of new cheap hq options. What would we need new stratagems if we use a spreahead all the time.
Some form of synergy with knights or i dont see them again in my d mech lists. And last but not least some melee defence or hq buff or relic or whatever. If we dont see cheaper units to make detachments we are forced yet again to be ad mech +++ other lists.
An astra militarum 100 plasma shots deep strike with 12+++ cp s will kill even a knight and a half alpha strike.
Ok to have one of the best dakka lines but its sad not to be able to field your army a different way. 2 hq is just dump. In a meta game of command points.
I see a lot talking about no need transport maybe scout move etc. Let me say this. Its not the speed our main issue. Dragoons move 10, stalkers 8 good enough. The fact they dont have run charge or resilience makes them ll good counter melee. Priests ,stalkers dragoon super counter mellee all of them. A transport will give options to either get more durability and thus reach your target or speed. Using both where need most . A transport will make a unit from counter to offensive.
They can fight in Protector, so its not that big of a deal if he dies as long as it was a worthwhile trade to ensure they are freed up during your next shooting phase. If the Datasmith will make a difference, send him in. Between his Pistol and Fist, he can put down some damage.
The problem is that they cannot fall back. Kastelans that can't shoot because they have to body slam Boyz to death might as well not be there. That one turn of not shooting represents one handful of Orks that survived to waagh another day.
They can fight in Protector, so its not that big of a deal if he dies as long as it was a worthwhile trade to ensure they are freed up during your next shooting phase. If the Datasmith will make a difference, send him in. Between his Pistol and Fist, he can put down some damage.
The problem is that they cannot fall back. Kastelans that can't shoot because they have to body slam Boyz to death might as well not be there. That one turn of not shooting represents one handful of Orks that survived to waagh another day.
I'm looking forward to the codex. I've been on hold and not working on my army or playing. Having a non Mars FW actually mean something in game will be nice and I hope we don't NEED Cawl to be competitive. I really don't like named characters, but that's just me being stubborn, lol.
The knights excite me. I almost got back into 40K a few years ago when I saw a thread on a different game site that had a picture of one. Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine are probably the best games GW ever published, IMO, and knights remind me of those games.
I have seen more positive things about dragoons. I have three unopened. Should I get a fourth?
Oh, I see now. My mistake. But yeah, keep those Kastelans out of CC as long as possible.
bortass wrote: I'm looking forward to the codex. I've been on hold and not working on my army or playing. Having a non Mars FW actually mean something in game will be nice and I hope we don't NEED Cawl to be competitive. I really don't like named characters, but that's just me being stubborn, lol.
The knights excite me. I almost got back into 40K a few years ago when I saw a thread on a different game site that had a picture of one. Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine are probably the best games GW ever published, IMO, and knights remind me of those games.
I have seen more positive things about dragoons. I have three unopened. Should I get a fourth?
I think we will always have our shooting in a detachment with Cawl, and a second specialized detachment with a TPD. I think CP will be very valuable in the future.
Repairable Knights is a big deal. I can't think of a reason not to take one. They are already one of those units that if the opponent has no answer (and you can kill the ones they do have), you win the game just by default; the downside being that some armies are really good at killing Knights, though the horde meta right now makes those rarer. I personally am hoping we get Renegade Knight status and just have one build with any weapon configuration. If so, double Avenger plus Feet can easily replace Kastelans entirely.
Even now, I don't play AdMech without 2x2 Dragoons, but I would hold off on opening anything, just in case. If what people say is true, Dragoons will become more valuable as screening units because you can pay 1 CP to detonate them when they die, which is great for finishing off characters or hurting multiple minimum units.
I would like to know as well. I have seen two dates thus far for the pre-orders, and the Community page has been mum.
Probably around the 15th for preorders. My FLGS is always looking for preorder numbers at least a week before the new GW releases and they have said nothing yet. I expect to see him asking sometime next week.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Heh, we'll need a lot more than that. Our best army in Nova got 61st place :/
Which is why I've long since abandoned AdMech until one of these fixes them:
a) codex
b) december book
c) FAQ
Hey - that was me! I'm happy to share my experiences at NOVA for folks. I'm certainly no pro, but I went 4-4, and overall had an amazing time. While I'm very happy with how the AdMech performs in general, we're clearly not top tier. What we need more than anything to perform better based on my experience is cheaper troops. The top lists all generally had either conscripts or brimstone horrors to serve as barriers against aggressive armies/smite spam/deep strikers, etc. We don't have an efficient option for that purpose without turning to other codexes.
• Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
 Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts], Twin Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]
 Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts], Twin Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]
 Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts], Twin Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]
 Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts], Twin Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]
• Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 130pts]: Icarus Array [40pts]
• Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 143pts]: Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber [53pts]
++ Total: [97 PL, 2000pts] ++
Match-ups:
Round 1: Pure aggressive and fast Harlequin's, with lots of fusion pistols. Managed to table them.
Round 2: Grey Knights/Space Wolves dreadnought/dread knight spam. Close game, but I lost on points.
Round 3: Eldar, Shadow Spectres with five Warp Hunters. Another very close game, but I managed to win.
Round 4: Tau, Ghost Keels, Commanders, and a Stormsurge. I made some mistakes with targeting priority, and had some terrible rolls. Close loss for me.
Round 5: Elysian Drop troops with six plasma command squads, 24 mortars, and 8 earth shaker carriages. This was a top-tier kind of list and I lost soundly.
Round 6: Another Imperial guard conscripts and artillery with a black templars storm raven. Not well optimized or well piloted by my opponent, and I had a solid win.
Round 7: Tzeencth Daemons. 50+ Brimstones, Magnus, 3 Daemon Princes and like 6 Exalted Flamers. I got tabled. This was the match I felt worst about, and was the only time I was tabled, or even had Cawl killed.
Round 8: Sisters of Battle. Standard sisters list with repressors, Celestine, and an Avenger Strike Fighter. Pretty easy victory for me.
Cawl was a star, his ability to advance and still hit on 3+ with his Solar Atomizer wrecked many vehicles and surprised opponents. I played him aggressively in turns 3+. My bubble wrap (vanguard, electro priests) died well, and bought time for my artillery to clean house (or they didn't and I lost). The Neutron Laser far outshone the Icarus Array - I'd almost take them exclusively. I often found myself changing my robots back to Aegis mode turn 3/4 so they could pressure things in the enemy's backfield, and secure objectives. The Ironstriders were consistent, and rarely drew much fire. Overall each unit served its purpose relatively well. Happy to hear others' thoughts too.
So far I agree on Icarus vs Neutron but I have not faced a heavy fly keyword army.
I too have found myself switching robots out of protector, I hate taking the data smith just for that
How are you guys kitting out the dragoons/ballistarii
BTW for me Electro Priests are badasses. I really want to run a larger unit they always get their 3+ save I wiped out a whole terminator squad because of the mortal wounds on charge and on their wound rolls
@Regis Terzieff-Godefroy
Congratulations on your finish. I mean, you didn't break top 8, but you were still the best AdMech at NOVA.
I agree that our troops are too expensive. That's why I would recommend bringing Dragoons instead; I replace all Skitarii and Electro-Priests with them.
I actually think you over-invested in your troops, and people just out-competed you on marginal efficiency. That's pretty much what a lot of Guard and Daemon armies are doing. =\
Cawl definitely is a beast, and I don't think people use him or the Crawlers as aggressively as they ought to. Remember, they can all move and shoot! It's only Kastelans that are rooted in place. (And if we get double-Avenger Mechanicum Knights, I will probably even drop my Kastelans entirely for a full 6 Crawlers.)
In terms of volume fire and the Mathhammer, Icarus has a lot of distinct advantages, especially in the horde metagame. The fact that it can shut out entire armies is also a big plus. Neutron definitely is our best anti-vehicle though.
Suzuteo wrote: @Regis Terzieff-Godefroy
Congratulations on your finish. I mean, you didn't break top 8, but you were still the best AdMech at NOVA.
I agree that our troops are too expensive. That's why I would recommend bringing Dragoons instead; I replace all Skitarii and Electro-Priests with them.
I actually think you over-invested in your troops, and people just out-competed you on marginal efficiency. That's pretty much what a lot of Guard and Daemon armies are doing. =\
Cawl definitely is a beast, and I don't think people use him or the Crawlers as aggressively as they ought to. Remember, they can all move and shoot! It's only Kastelans that are rooted in place. (And if we get double-Avenger Mechanicum Knights, I will probably even drop my Kastelans entirely for a full 6 Crawlers.)
In terms of volume fire and the Mathhammer, Icarus has a lot of distinct advantages, especially in the horde metagame. The fact that it can shut out entire armies is also a big plus. Neutron definitely is our best anti-vehicle though.
Thanks! I think I'll have to disagree on the dragoons - I don't see how they can provide the same bubble wrap coverage as electro-priests or vanguard. I didn't have to worry much about deep-strikers because five electro-priests at maximum coherency can cover 15 inches, meaning I could cover my entire deployment zone in each match. Dragoons can't block the same amount of space as effectively. Furthermore, against the armies I faced, priests and vanguard are straight up more survivable than dragoons would be against all the fire they received except guard mortars (my bubble wrap died mainly to smite, fusion pistols, auto cannons, fusion blasters, etc) They also all provide a greater volume of anti-infantry fire than a dragoon would, which is something I needed.
On the balance though, I would have been better off with just taking 80-120 conscripts and having more HS units. I feel like the Icarus Array really only outperforms the Neutron Laser agaisnt T6 W6 eldar skimmers, and hordes. However, in the case of both of those targets, additional robots would be more effective.
The other two AM lists I saw both had knights, and tons of dune crawlers and ironstriders to the exclusion of any infantry.
Suzuteo wrote: @Regis Terzieff-Godefroy
Congratulations on your finish. I mean, you didn't break top 8, but you were still the best AdMech at NOVA.
I agree that our troops are too expensive. That's why I would recommend bringing Dragoons instead; I replace all Skitarii and Electro-Priests with them.
I actually think you over-invested in your troops, and people just out-competed you on marginal efficiency. That's pretty much what a lot of Guard and Daemon armies are doing. =\
Cawl definitely is a beast, and I don't think people use him or the Crawlers as aggressively as they ought to. Remember, they can all move and shoot! It's only Kastelans that are rooted in place. (And if we get double-Avenger Mechanicum Knights, I will probably even drop my Kastelans entirely for a full 6 Crawlers.)
In terms of volume fire and the Mathhammer, Icarus has a lot of distinct advantages, especially in the horde metagame. The fact that it can shut out entire armies is also a big plus. Neutron definitely is our best anti-vehicle though.
Is it bad I find the icarus just annoying because it has so many ALMOST similar but not quite weapon profiles for rolling dice?
You think the Dragoons replace Electropriests? What are you killing with them? I've been playing vs Space Marine Crimsons fists and my 5 man electro priests have taken down at least 5+ marines in both games
I use an imperial ad mech army. Always testing to maximize my performance. I on!y use 5 rangers with 2 arq and omnispec.
I also use 40 infantry and elysian drops. Need cheap armies to perform my task bubble and deep strike while i dont loose my core.
I wanted pure mechanicum but its not top tier. Our robots and onagers with Cawl corp priests and dragoons are my core. But cant compete with mortars or deep strike plasma.
The most important reason cp s . And astra provide a brigade. And its effective and its full of cp s and i dont ruin my dakka mech line.
I can take 2 robots and 2 onagers for a knight. Or 4 onagers . 5+ reroll ones with canticle and repairs. Robot mortsl wounds and surv is beyond. Wont change them. Mortars and plasma onagers and robots seems to do the trick for me. Havent lost yet. Need a time to tour my list but seems just about right to deal with any case.
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote:
Thanks! I think I'll have to disagree on the dragoons - I don't see how they can provide the same bubble wrap coverage as electro-priests or vanguard. I didn't have to worry much about deep-strikers because five electro-priests at maximum coherency can cover 15 inches, meaning I could cover my entire deployment zone in each match. Dragoons can't block the same amount of space as effectively. Furthermore, against the armies I faced, priests and vanguard are straight up more survivable than dragoons would be against all the fire they received except guard mortars (my bubble wrap died mainly to smite, fusion pistols, auto cannons, fusion blasters, etc) They also all provide a greater volume of anti-infantry fire than a dragoon would, which is something I needed.
On the balance though, I would have been better off with just taking 80-120 conscripts and having more HS units. I feel like the Icarus Array really only outperforms the Neutron Laser agaisnt T6 W6 eldar skimmers, and hordes. However, in the case of both of those targets, additional robots would be more effective.
The other two AM lists I saw both had knights, and tons of dune crawlers and ironstriders to the exclusion of any infantry.
You don't really have to cover your entire deployment zone though. In fact, you should pretty much always take a corner deployment, and given a unit of 2 Dragoons at max coherency covers a front 10.2362" each, two units creates a 47.4724" front. This creates a right triangle with two 33.57" sides that you can deploy the rest of your artillery in.
Where the Dragoons really shine though are the comparisons:
1) More durable than Skitarii for their cost. They will actually survive more than one round of shooting; plus, they make Plasma explode on 2s.
2) Unlike Skitarii, they are good in CC.
3) Much more mobile than Electro-Priests. This means they can easily intercept enemies and grab the objectives that your artillery clears.
4) Big bases to trap vehicles and make piling in more difficult in tight spaces.
Your opponent smote your Skitarii? I wouldn't mind that. Also, you point out the anti-infantry, but keep in mind that everybody is thinking the same thing, and that sort of stuff kills Skitarii really well. That being said, Skitarii are pretty bad for anti-infantry given the point to point comparison. I would rely on my Kastelans, Icarus Crawlers, and Crusader to handle hordes.
I personally don't think Kastelan spam is viable in general. It's too easy to get tied up in CC and get blown out. I never take more than 4, and I want to replace them with Knights. Again, fingers crossed for double Avenger--repairable and with Cawl, that would be insane.
Jaynen wrote:
Is it bad I find the icarus just annoying because it has so many ALMOST similar but not quite weapon profiles for rolling dice?
You think the Dragoons replace Electropriests? What are you killing with them? I've been playing vs Space Marine Crimsons fists and my 5 man electro priests have taken down at least 5+ marines in both games
It is annoying, but the diversity makes it good for TAC.
Dragoons aren't supposed to kill anything. They're bubble wrap that just so happens to be mobile. You have your artillery clear objectives and pile wounds, and your Dragoons grab the objectives and mop up. I mean, don't get me wrong, Electro-Priests are pretty strong if they get in range to CC, but the operative word here is "if." Without transports, you pretty much let your opponent dictate the terms of combat.
Jaynen wrote: So do you take them as cheap as possible as dragoons or ballistarii?
So for 68 pts you get
10" 3+ WS/BSStr 5 t6 6wounds 3 attacks but they get incense cloud
But 100pts is your standard "dakkabox" Taurox Prime
14" 6+WS 3+ BS T6 10 wounds but puts out 31 STR 4 shots per turn
How much bigger are the dragoon bases? Does incense cloud make up for 4 wounds?
Vanilla Dragoons. You need the Taser Lances.
Incense Cloud is a 22% chance any unit with a rerolling plasma will kill itself, 33% chance without the reroll. (Any unit without a reroll has a guaranteed 33% chance to miss. It reduces the average dice roll to 2.67, which is a 31% increase in expected durability. -1 to hit is a big deal.)
Taurox Primes are not a substitute for Dragoons. The former is a shooting transport, the latter is CC cavalry.
Dragoons are the same size as Cawl. In addition to Incense Cloud and Shroudpsalm, keep in mind that Dragoons are 32 points cheaper than a Taurox Prime and don't have a damage table.
The only reason i take only 2 dragoons is they dont overwatch- shoot. In comparison to astra M troops. But still i use both front bodies and flank dragoons in a corner deploy.
Most important when i play aggresive. Meaning moving Cawl with my onagers dragoons utility shine
for reasons explained in other threads i think the dragoons are highly highly highly overrated. 3 attacks each on a 70 point model is not a very good CC unit. and with the taser goad they can't really shoot. So what are their role? really it's just to buffer for another round of shooting except they really don't do that because you've locked up the unit and can't shoot at it. you could fall back but that's just achieved nothing but letting the enemy advance for free (2d6" at that.)
a much better strategy is to take something that can not only survive in CC but hit back hard. OR alternatively take more dakka because IMO any use of points is better than something that isn't going to deal a lot of damage. For instance the balistarii would make a better choice as it would at least serve as anti tank for a turn or two, which might slow down the advance even more if they enemy is using transports. personally i would just take more kastelans or a unit of grey knights.
That whole post shows a genuine lack of understanding of what the Dragoons do. If you think their damage output matters, you are missing the point.
Not going outside faction, they offer something most other units in AdMech don't for screening. Durability and mobility. And believe it or not, they can actually do damage in combat. The goad is an afterthought, but it's high stregth makes wounding easy and it can randomly explode hits, which is just gravy.
Their large oval covers a large area. A unit of two can screen a wide area. They are entirely able to just walk out of combat, meaning we can shoot them next turn. That is precisely what we want, as our gunline is our bread-and-butter. I don't care if they do any damage, I just need to buy time.
Units like Priests and Blandguard can do similar, but are more fragile and less mobile. That is why everyone here has moved to Dragoons for screening, because in-faction they do it well. They also make a nice big bubble for keeping deep strikers back.
T6 6W with usually a 3+ save (shroudpsalm) and the -1 to-hit is fantastic for less than 70pt.
Ballistarii are not as useful mostly because they want to contribute to the gunline. This precludes them from being an effective screen unit. They are also about 15pt more each and compete for our usually limited FA slots. and we aren't hurting for long range antitank as we have the nasty Neutron laser to do the heavy lifting (or thermal cannons depending on the list).
If all you run is robots, you are not going to be able to stop from being tied up. You will be slow or immobile, meaning good luck with objectives not already in your deployment or getting table quarters or tactical objectives, etc. Something like Da Jumping Boyz will lock you up real easy. Lots of deep striking threats exist and outside of weird house rule metagames, it is something to account for in a list.
Kastelans are good, but tourney results showed that spamming them is not really viable. You must screen them either way, if you are running two or eight, and Dragoons do it well in-faction. Want to Branch out, grab conscripts. They are an easy no-brainer option.
Their large oval covers a large area. A unit of two can screen a wide area. They are entirely able to just walk out of combat, meaning we can shoot them next turn. That is precisely what we want, as our gunline is our bread-and-butter. I don't care if they do any damage, I just need to buy time.
6 wounds sv 4+ at T 6.... even given the -1 to hit that's not a lot. there is a much better option and you can shoot in Melee with it: Bunkers. and they're only 30 points more expensive for T 8 SV 3+ and very nearly twice the wounds.
and regardless of what you think, damage is important. AP 0 is going to hurt the syndonians and the extra attacks on a 6+ is not something i'd call reliable. if it isn't doing damage it's dead weight and only forestalling the inevitable at best. If this is the standard wisdom being offered admech players i see why the army is lower tier these days.
you are right about conscripts though, as they do offer a good bit to your output of firepower. and are half decent on the overwatch, and provide way more wounds to get through (and not putting them all in one basket, seriously a few lascannon shots and your 140 points are gone. or melta guns which are deep strikable). I prefer grey knights for their versatility however, but conscripts are a good choice. another good choice is just basic guardsmen, but being limited to a max size of 10 per unit has it's problems.
Kastelans are good, but tourney results showed that spamming them is not really viable.[
i keep hearing this repeated and don't see the data, just a bunch of tournaments where no one used a list like this. do you have an alternative source?
If dragoons are dead weight give an otpion better in imperium. Need t be fast slot. Need to be -1 hit its the most important rule and still be a vehicle cheap t6 w6 no downgrade.
Maybe the deep strike fast unit but still offensve. That -1 on plasma is what makes me not have bodies bubble all over. Since you can move move move even your soldiers for speed.
As said they are low on damage sure pure anti blop but their job is to be a good anti deep strike and if no need that a fast screener to enemy trqnsport bla bla. For 68 points that -1 default 6 invu has saved me 40 poison shots and most alha strikes. While the cnscripts or whatever need to be more than 30 to be sure they will survive a good alpha - poison - anti mass. There is no army that wont have a ton of dice vs soldiers. But every good shot spend on those dragoons is vital. And there is none i v seen like them inside imperium.
Wont lie i understand they are not superb thats why me and suzuteo debated in many posts. I propose no more than 2-3 per army and inside one unit for less first bloods.
But wont leave my house with out those 2 i use. And i need the points but on the table those dragoons do the job.
Yoda79 wrote: If dragoons are dead weight give an otpion better in imperium. Need t be fast slot. Need to be -1 hit its the most important rule and still be a vehicle cheap t6 w6 no downgrade.
Maybe the deep strike fast unit but still offensve. That -1 on plasma is what makes me not have bodies bubble all over. Since you can move move move even your soldiers for speed.
As said they are low on damage sure pure anti blop but their job is to be a good anti deep strike and if no need that a fast screener to enemy trqnsport bla bla. For 68 points that -1 default 6 invu has saved me 40 poison shots and most alha strikes. While the cnscripts or whatever need to be more than 30 to be sure they will survive a good alpha - poison - anti mass. There is no army that wont have a ton of dice vs soldiers. But every good shot spend on those dragoons is vital. And there is none i v seen like them inside imperium.
Wont lie i understand they are not superb thats why me and suzuteo debated in many posts. I propose no more than 2-3 per army and inside one unit for less first bloods.
But wont leave my house with out those 2 i use. And i need the points but on the table those dragoons do the job.
Units in imperium better than dragoons for screeing. In no particular order and certainly not an exhuastive list:
Consripts- lots of shots and a gak ton of wounds, also top tier right now.
Grey knights - great on offense defense, both shooting and melee, i can personally attest to using two 5 man squads in 1500 point games makes short work of MEQ acolytes - only 8 points a piece but 3 wounds each.and they can take a wide variety of weapons
Scouts - versatile and useful units more wounds IIRC but not all in one basket
sisters of battle lower T but you aren't putting everything in one basket and a 3+ save, also a ton more shots and power weapon options
Tacticals- need i say more they are the the poster boys for 40k and seriously under estimated, did i mention ravenguard gives you your precious -1 to hit?
Infiltrators - a bit expensive and a little fragile but they deepstrike and with command rerolls can be fairly certain of getting into melee. upside is theyd on't get shot turn 1 if you don't start first and they can deep strike onto objectives ect
Guardsmen- depending on the list not as good as conscripts but a cheap way of getting another battalion in and better BS with better weapon options, I.e. not useless in shooting.
That's just a short list. Yeah 6 wounds is nice, it's on a single model. and melta guns exist. so do lascannons and overcharged plasma cannons. ... auto cannons, ect ect ect. oh and power fists
if you JUST want to make a win at all costs lists you NEED to ditch the dragoons for conscripts. conscripts are the huge factor for IG armies that are winning tournaments and easily available to the Mechanicus player. and you can even paint them up as tech guard like we did back in 5th.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The fact you listed Grey Knights as having good screening units means you're not to be taken seriously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like, I literally stopped reading the list after that.
oh really because i've got several games with this list and its currently undefeated:
Grey knights patrol
Grand master (soul spear, first to the fray, sanctuary)
7 Grey knight terminators (swords, no upgrades, sanctuary)
6 Grey knight terminators (swords no upgrades, sanctuary)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The fact you listed Grey Knights as having good screening units means you're not to be taken seriously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like, I literally stopped reading the list after that.
oh really because i've got several games with this list and its currently undefeated:
Grey knights patrol
Grand master (soul spear, first to the fray, sanctuary)
7 Grey knight terminators (swords, no upgrades, sanctuary)
6 Grey knight terminators (swords no upgrades, sanctuary)
Literally tabled a dark angels player by turn three last night. Decisive blow was dealt by the datasmith in CC
Also Acolytes don't have 3 wounds.
Unless it's a typo i'm reading the book right now and yes they do.
Not in a tournament setting. I don't care you tabled Dark Angels! Nobody does!
Also Grey Knight Terminators are garbage for screening as they're way too expensive, and Acolytes were in a Errata that anyone could've seen coming. So something tells me you're not really playing the game.
One thing I don't get is you guys do talk about the dragoons as if they always have shroudpsalm. But you can only pick it once, or you have to roll it and be within +/- 1 with Cawls ability correct?
So once out of 5 rounds you can say yes my Dragoons have shroudpsalm. I have had a number of units fight me that dont give cover bonus's similar to our omnispex tho.
gendoikari87 wrote: You guys do you boo. You can keep whining about being bottom tier or you can think outside the box kthnx bye
You dont even know the faq - errata acolytes where first to change and obvious to all. I also agree with the rest of the commends . Your points are paper wise seems like you are not testing what you write. There is no unit so far that has 68 point 6 wounds 6 t fast with -1 to hit incense cloud. Not shroudpsalm. Also a big base to cover a side with only two.
As for soldier said already i use infantry ig. Dragoons are not infantry. T6 with 6w usually 3+ save and 6 invu is not infantry. I specifically stated the difference.
60 points 20 conscripts. Lots of armies can easily kill soldiers not as many guns to kill dragoons. Point made enemy has to waste some good weapons to kill them. Is it hard to understand?
The dragoons definitely seem more useful than a 5man Vanguard unity with a couple of weapons.
I ran my full 15 blandguard this last game and all they were good for was dying. It did let the electro priests get into melee and get their save however
Sadly I think at work we will end up playing more smaller point games which I don't feel Admech is that good at
gendoikari87 wrote: Whatever without proof or math you opinion is just an opinion. You keep doing what works for you I'll do what works for me, and it's working well
I'm sure someone here already provided math.
Speaking of math, you mentioned Tactical Marines and ANYBODY can tell you mathematically they aren't durable. Hypocrisy much?
Jaynen wrote: One thing I don't get is you guys do talk about the dragoons as if they always have shroudpsalm. But you can only pick it once, or you have to roll it and be within +/- 1 with Cawls ability correct?
So once out of 5 rounds you can say yes my Dragoons have shroudpsalm. I have had a number of units fight me that dont give cover bonus's similar to our omnispex tho.
Yes, Cawl is the enabler here. Given where Shroudpsalm is on the table, a +1/-1 will get us there most of the time. In an average 6 turn game, I usually have it the whole time. Maybe one round without so to outlier rolls.
And if they ignore cover, that's fine. It is just a perk when it works. It isn't a lynchpin to our army, just a useful ability.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The fact you listed Grey Knights as having good screening units means you're not to be taken seriously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like, I literally stopped reading the list after that.
oh really because i've got several games with this list and its currently undefeated:
Grey knights patrol
Grand master (soul spear, first to the fray, sanctuary)
7 Grey knight terminators (swords, no upgrades, sanctuary)
6 Grey knight terminators (swords no upgrades, sanctuary)
Literally tabled a dark angels player by turn three last night. Decisive blow was dealt by the datasmith in CC
Also Acolytes don't have 3 wounds.
Unless it's a typo i'm reading the book right now and yes they do.
Wow. Really? That list is awful. Overpriced GK and a smattering of AdMech without Cawl... Just seems weak.
Given your attitude and the fact plenty of us here have shown our games, lists, and whatnot, you seem to be a troll. I think I did my part in explaining, but you are officially on my ignore list now. I don't have time for trolls.
Guys, why are you wasting your time with this servitor. He's proven his incompetance time and time again.
Just ignore him like you would ignore a fly.
Anything you say, he'll yell at "but THAT'S NOT DATAH". I mean he literally said "math is not data". xD
About his list he'll say "I always win against my friends(who in 2 years will be 13) and it has been untested in tournaments(because the list is so terrible no one would take it)
Also Grey Knight Terminators are garbage for screening as they're way too expensive, and Acolytes were in a Errata that anyone could've seen coming. So something tells me you're not really playing the game.
Yeah, they're expensive because they're good. Rapid fire 2 is a thing. Now they may not be as good as regular grey knights but i'm not going through the hassle of putting those together. nor are they as good as a giant blob of conscripts which i don't have the time money or patience for.
gendoikari87 wrote: Whatever without proof or math you opinion is just an opinion. You keep doing what works for you I'll do what works for me, and it's working well
I'm sure someone here already provided math.
Speaking of math, you mentioned Tactical Marines and ANYBODY can tell you mathematically they aren't durable. Hypocrisy much?
no no they really haven't . but lets compare the tactical squad to the standard dragoon
Dragoons get
6W at T6 with a 4+ save 3 Str8 hits that MIGHT if the dice gods are kind be a total of 5 or more at most. and it has NO shooting ability what so ever save maybe for a phosphor serpenta
The marines get
5W at T4 with 3+ saves and 6 str4 hits ... now all things being even that dragoon is ever so slightly more durable, you wound on one higher and it has ONE more wound than the marines..... but the marines have 5-10 shooting attacks .... and that's before you start adding bells and whistles which while making them ever so slightly more expensive would also make them vastly more powerful.
I'm leaving this thread after saying this as a public service announcement:
Think outside the box, the ability to do damage matters, and melta guns exist. you do you boo. I'll do me. Good luck and peace the feth out
Now you all go on my ignore list because frankly you have proven you can't do anything other than parrot the same old lines, nor can you think critically and certainly not outside the box. good day, good night and goodbye
So in order to steer the conversation in literally any other direction...
Skitarii infantry are pretty underwhelming right now, a combination of factors prevent them from being threatening on their own and they're fairly expensive if taken purely as chaff units to screen for your big guns. Would people rather fix the former or the latter? If the former, what buffs would seem appropriate?
A scout move and Bionics being changed to FNP would help a lot with Skitarii being good on their own without decreasing the points cost, I think.
Arachnofiend wrote: So in order to steer the conversation in literally any other direction...
Skitarii infantry are pretty underwhelming right now, a combination of factors prevent them from being threatening on their own and they're fairly expensive if taken purely as chaff units to screen for your big guns. Would people rather fix the former or the latter? If the former, what buffs would seem appropriate?
A scout move and Bionics being changed to FNP would help a lot with Skitarii being good on their own without decreasing the points cost, I think.
I'd also change 2 damage on 6 into mortal wound and maybe add the doctrina back. They need a lot of help.
AND maybe a pts reduction. Like they are one of the worst units of one of the worst faction tournament results wise. No player who won a major tournament is taking them seriously. The BAO winner outright stated in a podcast that AdMech pretty much have no troops choices.
You can say your anecdotal evidence of "I never lose with my AdMech"(I haven't either) but results speak for themselves. AdMech making to top 16 is a pipe dream. We can't even crack top 50.
I saw the glaring weaknesses in AdMech and switched to Daemons(which sadly only have cheese lists as viable lists) and whenever I've played against AdMech I just crushed them both VP and combat wise. It's sad. Hope the Codex is all it's cracked up to be by Reece.
@gendoikari87
Conscripts are great and Sisters with Celestine are good too. If you want to use them, all the more power to you. In fact, we had a discussion about both about 20 pages back (and another about Sisters more recently) and generally received them positively. However, many were concerned about how we would be committing to tabling the enemy with them, as it would be a shield-and-sword strategy.
The rest I am a bit skeptical about. As mentioned, Acolytes got errata'ed, and some wouldn't be what I consider screening units.
This all being said, they don't do what Dragoons do. Some of these units are faster, cheaper, tougher, and have better damage output, sure. But each lacks one or more of these properties entirely. Dragoons are unique in that they have the first three properties, and many of us have used them to our advantage. If it helps, don't think of Dragoons as an attacking unit, but as a support unit; he defends and acts as a force multiplier.
@rvd1ofakind
Yeah... AdMech isn't top tier in this current metagame because of how tournaments are structured. Your placement is not really determined by how strong your matchups are, but by how bad your worst matchups are. Specifically, we get blown out by pure assault armies. In this regard, Guard/Soup has a huge advantage. Still fingers-crossed for double Avenger Mechanicum Knights.
I'm running an Imperial Soup army for an escalation league, and am starting to have a bit of difficulty determining when Cawl starts to justify his cost in a soup list over a regular Dominus.
I'll be moving from 1250 over to 1500 soon, and with the increase in points, the full list is going to have a greater need to pull its own list over a couple of stand-out centrepieces. With that in mind, while Cawl hasn't been harmful to me in my previous games, paying for him just to support a single Dunecrawler doesn't strike me as an exactly prudent decision.
The short range on his gun and lack of mobility (combined with his preference for sticking back with his toys) means that he won't often be doing much direct fighting unless things start going badly to begin with. And even when he does get stuck in, I've found that the results are less than impressive (that said, my Cawl has a tendency to roll horribly).
Here's what I sit at right now at 1250. I'd say that it's moderately competitive, with a selection of fairly strong options, albeit with some exploitable weaknesses mainly revolving around hordes (Yes, I know I don't get Canticles with these detatchments yet):
Supreme Command
HQ:
Greyfax
Tempestor Prime
Tempestor Prime
Heavy Support:
Manticore (Heavy Bolter)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
I'm not too sure exactly how I'm going to expand going up to 1500. Dropping Cawl for a regular Dominus would give me a lot more room to work with, but how much value I get is really dependant on what goes in there instead. Throwing in a pair of dunecrawlers to easily gain some canticles seems like a pretty standard, if somewhat boring solution. I love the aesthetics of Ballistari and Dragoons, but I'm not sure how they'd fit into a list like this. As cool as Infiltrators are, they strike me as just being bad, especially after the nerf. Granted, I'm not everything in this next expansion has to come from ad mech, but I'd like to consider the options available here, even if only because they look cool.
Still surprised no-one has tried a combo of Crawl with Corpus Eletro Priests; I would have thought all those re-rolls with exploding 6s would be a great way to deal with the horde meta/anything within 18" (or more, since they'd still be very effective even running - though they would lose out on the exploding 6s)
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Still surprised no-one has tried a combo of Crawl with Corpus Eletro Priests; I would have thought all those re-rolls with exploding 6s would be a great way to deal with the horde meta/anything within 18" (or more, since they'd still be very effective even running - though they would lose out on the exploding 6s)
3 attacks at str 5 at 14 points is quite tempting. shooting MEQ they'll easily kill 2x as much as vanguard even without the explody. 12" range is going to be a hamper, so will the T3 1W and 5++only. defensively they will be consistent but weak, offensively they're decent. I see no reason not to try this out for further study
Fulg priest i got in all my lists. Corpus i dont use nor i see any use for them. I d prefer one more robot or 7 vanguard or elysian plasma squad any day.
Spamm does not exists as as mech army. All our units can do something good but wont be superb in all games.
Robots are superb cause they got -2 - cover. And can kill 36 inch obj holders. Icarus onager can contributr vs air and mass. None will be better with out the other. You need and icarus and robots and neutron. All and most likely and snipers...
Automatically Appended Next Post: When i post in here i dont do it so i can be happy. I really try to contribute and i do so after i play lots of games.
I took 2 dragoons in my lists and place them in my flank side cause there is where a deep strike best suited to drop. I need a cc unit there and a unit with -1 for plasma is suberb. Especially with that large base. I didnt place astra militarum in flank.
I said the point is to make your enemy hard to decide and for us to win. Always consider enemy as well. Its not only how a unit costs. Dragoons in the flanks in a unit of two for me has no equal and str 8 melee.
Same goes for ig soldiers in front. At the v edge of my deployment the only viable solution is cheap no caring soldiers. Why cause usually most guns can reach them. Enemy guns and the bubblewrap need to be max front to give room to my onagers to hide away from a rapid fire plasma. And so on for all units.
There is no answer yes or no cost wise or abilities. Its about how you handle your army vs enemies. As i play ad mech and so far i have been 50% corner pew pew and 50% rush the enemy, i need options. Yes deep strike plasma is good but i see my neutron deliver as well. I got 2 deep strike elysian sure cause it remains a tactical fight after all but the survivng 11 healable neutron is better than a knight for me.
Same goes for corpus priest. Cheap specialists. They are not uber but they are superb as counter charge units. They charge and give mortals they kill and go 3+ every 6 mortals. Its an ability to provide mortals where i really need espcially vs char lists with high invu. Cheap. Cheaper than pshych. Wont change them especially since they are ad mech.
I dont know why people find it hard to face competitive lists with a soup of imperium and 1300-1500 ad mech superiority. 3-4 robots all shots rerollable not only miss not enough to kill whatever is need. Especially with a 4 invu 5-6 return mortals??
3 neutron and 2 icarus cant deal with mass or tanks? All rerollable shots ? 5 invu reroll 1s and most likely cover for vehcles with shroud?
And anything else soldiers plasma dragoons whatever you find cmpetitive . Mortal spam with inq. Astra militarum mortals plasma bla bla. Where is the problem. Is it nt cheap 143 points better than lascannon? 110 9-18 shots with great defence robot?
Spamm robots wont do it same goes for spamm onagers etc. I saw list with 8 icarus onagers smart but wont win all. Thats how it is.
If you really play the army it will deliver. Ad mech is balanced but its not equal. I made a marine list and i opened hq and gave me 23 if not more options. Yes the game seems balanced point wise as much as possible but does not mean we compare to armies 10 years evolving. Play imperium. Spreahed gi es canticles. You either way need ti abjust to more command points get battaljons or brigades with imperium so many nice options to make your army as you like. Even when we played war convo we used inq coteaz knights bunkers. Etc. I played a game and used 9 kataprhons and a tpd with a bastion was superb all super cha.
We got options as imperium the rest will come with fires or c. With codex evolving maybe from 30k maybe ne units. You wont be competitive if you try to do impossible things.
I'm running an Imperial Soup army for an escalation league, and am starting to have a bit of difficulty determining when Cawl starts to justify his cost in a soup list over a regular Dominus.
This is an opportunity cost analysis. We're going to compare Cawl with the next best option, which is TPD; I am assuming you aren't playing Soup.
For the purposes of this comparison, let's assume that when we take shooting units, their entire cost is for their guns, with their durability being a sunk cost. Same goes for Cawl and the TPD's bodies.
Cawl's aura is valued at 250 - 135 = 115 additional points. TPD's reroll 1s aura improves the average dice roll by 11.9%, Cawl's by 27.78%.
Therefore, Cawl is superior to TPD when he enhances the shooting 115/(.278-.119) = 723 points. (The logic here being that at 723 points, Cawl's 27.8% aura is a 115 point improvement over the TPD's 11.9% aura.) Since 723+250 = 973, you probably want to take Cawl at 1000 points, with 100% of the rest of the army being artillery. However, I would never leave home without 272 points of Dragoons or 232 points of Conscripts and a Lord Commissar, so it's closer to the 1250 mark.
That being said, you may value Cawl's body more than a TPD's, and you may think our artillery durability may be unevenly distributed. Feel free to adjust point values around.
Forge World Focus: Mars
One of the most exciting features of the new Adeptus Mechanicus codex is rules for seven different forge worlds, allowing you to customise your collection more than ever before with powerful and thematic new abilities. This week, we’ll be previewing what the forge world rules mean for your army in our daily previews of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus in advance of the pre-order this Saturday:
Mars is clearly the most famous of all the forge worlds, and it’s not just because of how good the Adeptus Mechanicus look in red! As the birthplace of the Cult Mechanicus, Mars is the holiest of planets to the servants of the machine god, and their armies are characterised by a sense of piety and dogmatism that sets the standard for every other forge world.
Adeptus Mechanicus armies benefit from a powerful forge world dogma – equivalent to Legion Traits or Chapter Tactics – which apply to every unit in an Adeptus Mechanicus army, not just your infantry! Mars’ forge world dogma is Glory to the Omnissiah, a trait that’ll make your army very powerful, if unpredictable.
Best Units
Belisarius Cawl is perhaps the most venerated Tech-Priest in the whole Imperium, and he makes for a superb leader to any Mars army, his Archmagos ability helping to ensure that you roll the Canticles of the Omnissiah that you need as well as ensuring you never end up with a duplicated result.
Cawl’s already powerful aura abilities are significantly enhanced by the Mars Warlord Trait, Static Psalm-Code.
Corpuscarii Electro-Priests can throw out a terrifying amount of firepower; a unit of 20 with re-rolls to hit from Belisarius Cawl being nearby will inflict, on average, a colossal 80 strength 5 hits on any given enemy unit; combine this with the Wrath of Mars stratagem and you’ll deal an additional 13(!) mortal wounds as well as any other damage!
On average, you could quite handily kill Magnus or a Renegade Knight in a single round – a perfect demonstration of the Omnissiah’s power!
If you’re capable of adapting your strategy to suit the Canticles of the Omnissiah on the fly, then you’ll find Mars a versatile and powerful forge world.
Come back tomorrow when we’ll be looking at Graia, a sect of the Adeptus Mechanicus known for their ruthlessness.
Hmm, so will it still be run Mars and Cawl or go home? I hope not but I have a feeling that is what we'll see still. Makes sense since there's no other named Admech characters though.
Looking forward to see what the rest of us may get. Since Lucius has teleporting titans, maybe we'll get deepstrike abilities....
Big hopes are still more HQ options, troops that are worth something, and our faction being able to be from various FWs so there is some flavor to things but not be completely gimped if you don't run Mars.
"Corpuscarii Electro-Priests can throw out a terrifying amount of firepower; a unit of 20 with re-rolls to hit from Belisarius Cawl being nearby will inflict, on average, a colossal 80 strength 5 hits on any given enemy unit; combine this with the Wrath of Mars stratagem and you’ll deal an additional 13(!) mortal wounds as well as any other damage! "
LOL, you're claiming 50 died on the first turn. Try not bringing nothing but a 60 bloodletter list. They have the same toughness and a marginally better save than conscripts yet even those don't evaporate 50 per turn. If your enemy wants to decimate the bloodletters to the man, hit him with what he didn't shoot at. Clearly the greatest threat on your field was a few packs of troops. That's not the unit's fault.
Arkaine wrote: LOL, you're claiming 50 died on the first turn. Try not bringing nothing but a 60 bloodletter list. They have the same toughness and a marginally better save than conscripts yet even those don't evaporate 50 per turn. If your enemy wants to decimate the bloodletters to the man, hit him with what he didn't shoot at. Clearly the greatest threat on your field was a few packs of troops. That's not the unit's fault.
Um.. It was a 3k pts list. So yes, I brought more than just 60 letters lol. Except everyone with half a brain knows they are one of the strongest units damage/pts wise and will direct any anti-horde weapons into them. How about 90 str 4 shots with re-rolls. Also Bloodthrister died turn 1 too so the bloodletters died to morale.
For comparison and everyone raving about genestealers: Bloodletters are 25% better than them in melee damage wise. They just need to get there - oh hi summoning.
SuperHeavy Auxilary
Knight Crusader, BattleCannon and Stormspear rocket pod
Barring any points changes I will now be able to spread out my Kastellans a bit more, almost guarantee shroudpsalm for them and drop a stratagem or two for mortal wounds. The list has been good so far, but not world-beating, this should bring it solidly into mid-tier in my mind.
SuperHeavy Auxilary
Knight Crusader, BattleCannon and Stormspear rocket pod
Barring any points changes I will now be able to spread out my Kastellans a bit more, almost guarantee shroudpsalm for them and drop a stratagem or two for mortal wounds. The list has been good so far, but not world-beating, this should bring it solidly into mid-tier in my mind.
I am leaning towards actually combining my Kastellans together to make use of that new strategem. Six Kastellans together throwing mortal wounds out for 2CP will be useful. Just got to be extra cautious screening them. With Cawl's increased bubble, we can spread out a bit more, which may prove useful.
On an aside, you don't need 2 Datasmiths really. One should suffice. And if rumors are to be believed, Cawl/TPD/Enginseers can repair Knights for 1W a turn now. Allegedly.
I am leaning towards actually combining my Kastellans together to make use of that new strategem. Six Kastellans together throwing mortal wounds out for 2CP will be useful. Just got to be extra cautious screening them. With Cawl's increased bubble, we can spread out a bit more, which may prove useful.
I am leaning towards actually combining my Kastellans together to make use of that new strategem. Six Kastellans together throwing mortal wounds out for 2CP will be useful. Just got to be extra cautious screening them. With Cawl's increased bubble, we can spread out a bit more, which may prove useful.
-snip-
Converting your Metallica stuff to Mars?
Running the rules as Mars when I feel like using my Metalicawl(TM)
I bought him, painted him white, and will be gosh darned if I don't use him!
I am leaning towards actually combining my Kastellans together to make use of that new strategem. Six Kastellans together throwing mortal wounds out for 2CP will be useful. Just got to be extra cautious screening them. With Cawl's increased bubble, we can spread out a bit more, which may prove useful.
-snip-
Converting your Metallica stuff to Mars?
Running the rules as Mars when I feel like using my Metalicawl(TM)
I bought him, painted him white, and will be gosh darned if I don't use him!
SuperHeavy Auxilary
Knight Crusader, BattleCannon and Stormspear rocket pod
Barring any points changes I will now be able to spread out my Kastellans a bit more, almost guarantee shroudpsalm for them and drop a stratagem or two for mortal wounds. The list has been good so far, but not world-beating, this should bring it solidly into mid-tier in my mind.
I am leaning towards actually combining my Kastellans together to make use of that new strategem. Six Kastellans together throwing mortal wounds out for 2CP will be useful. Just got to be extra cautious screening them. With Cawl's increased bubble, we can spread out a bit more, which may prove useful.
On an aside, you don't need 2 Datasmiths really. One should suffice. And if rumors are to be believed, Cawl/TPD/Enginseers can repair Knights for 1W a turn now. Allegedly.
I've found 2 datasmiths to be surprisingly useful. My knight and assassins tend to take the pressure off of the kastellans enough that I've actually needed to swap the protocols AWAY from double shoot, so I could move them onto objectives. They can also can do a bit of screening if things are going sideways. It also gives me a lot of healing to toss around. Not saying it's the best way to go, but certainly not awful having two.
If they let us have double Avenger on the Mechanicum Knight, we'll never have to field robots again. 24 rerollable S6 AP2 2D shots, not to mention the dual Heavy Flamers, Heavy Stubber, and Stormspear Rockets...
I wonder this myself tbh... I mean people on here saying dragoons being the best bubblewrap we have for the points, but they have less shots and less attacks than standard troops like vanguard, and they will die super fast to multi-wound weapons (which are extremely common now).
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Still surprised no-one has tried a combo of Crawl with Corpus Eletro Priests; I would have thought all those re-rolls with exploding 6s would be a great way to deal with the horde meta/anything within 18" (or more, since they'd still be very effective even running - though they would lose out on the exploding 6s)
Ok this is 100% something that needs to be tried now...
gendoikari87 wrote: Multi damage weapons are a thing now and six wounds in a single model can be fragile
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also damage 2 autocannon hurt when you only got a 4+ to begin with
You're not providing the math again.
With Shroudpsalm and -1 to-hit, I don't sweat autocannons - most armies are at 50% changes to-hit thanks to Incense and 66% chance to hurt us, for which we get a 50% chance to stop the damage. Not great odds there.
Lascannons are tough, but it is a 16% chance to knock us out in one shot, plus as with the autocannons, the -1 to-hit helps reduce the shots of notoriously low-shot guns and we get a 6++, which is a 16% chance to stop the damage too.
Given the benefits of Dragoons, I'll take them any day over a Tac Squad, which is a laughably bad option by comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: I wonder this myself tbh... I mean people on here saying dragoons being the best bubblewrap we have for the points, but they have less shots and less attacks than standard troops like vanguard, and they will die super fast to multi-wound weapons (which are extremely common now).
They really don't die that fast. Blandguard drop significantly faster being low toughness, single wound models with low leadership.
Most of us who are proponents are people who play competitive or semi-competitive games against a variety of opponents without any weird house rules. Just standard Matched Play. So we all put in the table time and found this out. I was skeptical at first (just go back and look through this thread), but they proved their worth every game I brought them in.
@gendoikari87
Whether or not something dies is not a very good argument for or against it.
Yes, a Lascannon shot has a small chance to instantly kill a Dragoon. There are plenty of heavy weapons with a small chance to instantly kill a Tactical SM squad as well. Taurox Battle Cannons or Twin Assault Cannons, for example. (But let's be honest, there are so, so many things that can do it.)
But two questions:
1) What is more common in a horde environment? Lascannons or Battle/Assault Cannons?
2) Which unit would you rather want taking a Lascannon hit? Dragoons or your Kastelans or Crawlers?
Fact is, you are advocating using a unit that doesn't synergize much with the army on the off-chance that the opponent is massing weapons that frankly you won't be seeing as much of long as people are preparing to fight off 100+ Conscripts or Boyz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for the record, I have never seen a Razorback or Taurox shoot its Twin Lascannons or Battle Cannon at Dragoons instead of going for Crawlers, Kastelans, or my Knight.
In fact, that is the great thing about Dragoons: they can advance up the board to threaten to tie up enemy shooting--this can be a ton of pressure. I don't worry about being out-traded, since Neutron Lasers are nasty things, and I have my priests fixing my Crawlers.
I'm sure the average is pretty okay, they'll typically need a few tries to get an unsaved wound and they *probably* won't roll a 6 when they do.
But it can also be very swingy, since their chance of a one hit kill is 1/6 of their chance at getting an unsaved wound in the first place. Even one extra wound would reduce the swinginess significantly, since at that point no matter how well they roll they're going to have to do it one more time.
Where as a mass of 1 wound models is significantly less swingy, because they have to crank out enough shots in the first place, and their chance of getting every single one through is significantly less than 1/6. In fact it drops exponentially with every additional model. It's really hard to get a "miracle roll" against a blob.
Of course, swinginess does cut both ways. Some models in the blob are practically guaranteed to die under sheer weight of dice, while it's not that unusual for a lucky walker to see an enemy lascannon whiff two or three turns in a row. So you've got to ask yourself a question: "do I feel lucky?"
When i see a great assault weapon like the priests seem now i presume its on a moving army. To be able to take advantage of the true cost. Obviously now that you might wanna create different forge world detachments if possible i see some losts with pure vanguard plasma assault priests marching.
If the knight does not get an ad mech keyword i dont care for its guns atm? My robots with 6+ to mortal will become an instant nerf talk gsme one.
I have made a list with mar spesrhead and brigade imperium soup for 2k 13 command points with everything inside. Just adding double canticles and 6+ mortals is enough
If my enemies lascannons target dragoons then i propably win it ether way. Thas is their real use. How much the enemy will waste to kill a low impprtance screener that will and have not died for me yet from small arms...
If there is also a new stratagem to explode then im gonna make a detachment for dragoons as well.
One of the strategems described in an FB leak was the deathguard vehicle explode strategem. Being able to choose when to blowup vehicles makes walkers much more likely to get their points back.
Unfortunately the stuff revealed today for Mars just seems to reinforce the "park the castellans around cawl and try to shoot your opponent off the board strategy without anyone moving", which i don't think is particularly fun to play or to play against. If one of the strategems enables you to instantly change the protocol on the castellans that would go a long way to changing the dynamic, but we are going to be hard pressed for CP with how terrible our troop options are.
npcompl33t wrote: Unfortunately the stuff revealed today for Mars just seems to reinforce the "park the castellans around cawl and try to shoot your opponent off the board strategy without anyone moving", which i don't think is particularly fun to play or to play against. If one of the strategems enables you to instantly change the protocol on the castellans that would go a long way to changing the dynamic, but we are going to be hard pressed for CP with how terrible our troop options are.
Just wait for the relics. Relic spam was the only list other than WarCon winning tournaments for CM/Skitarii back in 7th. Given how bubbles work now, it can be really good if they made them right.
If anyone doesn't remember that period, it was at the end of 7E. People in the European circuit were abusing the new Cawl relics to make big Skitarii blob armies. It's a GrandCon with Cawl and three Dominus, Grav Destroyer, Arquebus, and 2 min Vanguard; a Skitarii Maniple with two max vanilla Vanguard and 15x Peltast; and a Holy Requisitioner with yet another Dominus. People brought Memento, Stasis Field + Autocaduceus, Conversion Field + Omnissiah's Grace, and Skullscryer or Autopurger. Lots of shooting with the Dominuses tanking the damage. Cawl was unkillable with the Peltast bubble shield, and the Conversion Field + Omnissiah's Grace was scary tough as well. Memento and the Skullscryer made blowing up vehicles, flyers, MCs, etc. super easy.
Still struggling between a chaos mechanicum army (fiends, hellforged dreads, helbrutes) or an Admech army (kastellan, onagers, dragoons I guess) as a mechanised force.
Seems like the chaos version has more options, as far as I can tell all the admech options need to be tooled up for a static gunline to be "optimal", while chaos can be shooty or stabby or a mixture of the two and still have options.
Painting a maulerfiend as we speak, but its partly as practise for my admittedly difficult choice of colour scheme hah
I really want sicarians to get some love, they're such interesting models with terribly average rules. You read about them and they make them out to be terrifying, rules wise they're just not. I'm kinda hoping one of the factions gets a buffed up dunestrider rule or something. Definitely agree some deep strike ability would be good and a -1 to hit outside 12" is awesome for crawlers, robots and knights. In fact if that turns out to be true, I'd take they rule over a movement buff.
I do like the flavour of the mars faction rules and I really hope that's the only faction that reinforces the cawl gunline strategy, because it's dull.
1. Imperial guard.
so fighting the Imperial guard the guard player is going to look at your syndonians, back to his conscripts and laugh. 3 attacks a piece even over 6 turns is not enough to kill 100-200 guardsment. Even given six syndonians you get a total of 108 attacks total. of which 72 will hit, 60 will wound and 40 will fail their saves, congratulations, you haven't even killed a third of the conscripts they brought, and that's assuming they don't even attack the syndonians. the stormshard mortars and the manticores then proceed to blast you in the face. Each manticore they bring will fire 7 shots average per turn, 3.5 will hit on average and 2.6 will wound, ending up at an average of about 3 wounds a turn to any onager or kastelan. which they can do from behind cover without LOS and your syndonians are tied trying to get through the massive blob army . If you are extremely unlucky enough to run up against one that has a squad of lascannons Those lascannons will fire 4 shots hit twice and on average deal 3.88 wounds per turn. luckily they can't fire out of LOS so you just shoot them and it's all good Except those two conscript squads tying up your syndonians are a fraction of the cost of your syndonians and you just got yourself into a pissing match where your opponent has more points to shoot at you with.
The last piece of the guard blob army is the wyvern who averages 14 shots a turn at you hitting with 7 and wound with 55% on stormshards str 4 thanks to rerolling all wounds so 3 again out of LOS. luckily it has no AP so you lose 1 wound.
Then the other 50 guardsmen come up and hit you with 200 shots, hitting on 5 wounding on 6 and 0 ap so 10 wounds. Now depending on how you the guard player distributed his points he has a wyvern/manticore for each robot, or walker you have and more because you have more points tied up in a pointless battle.
Good luck
2. wave serpent spam
Just for fun lets run the numbers on how much damage 2 syndonians do to a wave serpent should the gods be lucky enough to grace them with a charge. so exploding six's and WS 3 mean you come out with an average of 3 hits a turn times two walkers that's 6 hits. of which wounding on 3 means you wound 4, divided by 3 you end up doing 1.3 wounds(because wave serpents are nasy and your 2 damage counts as 1), they promptly back up and scoot away and shoot you because skimmers do that.
but they also have a movement of 16" which means you aren't going to be getting to charge them a lot and when you do, your walkers only hit them for 1 damage. and unlike stormraven spam you can just fill an entire list up with these and fire prisms. brightlances hurt too. and again it's a match up where half your army is negated by the simple fact that the other player just does not care about your fething stick weilding dudes. they aren't a threat in close combat and that means if you spend any amount of points other hoard armies can just tie them out and use superior points values in shooting to blast you to dust.
i'll do space marines tomorrow (non storm raven spam)
TL;DR the top armies do not give a gak about your dragoons they either tie them up with cheaper units or just avoid them and neither has to fear much about them doing anything resembling any amount of damage. This is why the ability to actually do damage is important,
not just being a road block
P.S. if anyone is wondering how much damage the kastelans and onagers with neutron lasers do back against T7 3+ it's 3.555 for onagers and 2.3 per robot (switched on and next to the TPD)
1. Imperial guard.
so fighting the Imperial guard the guard player is going to look at your syndonians, back to his conscripts and laugh. 3 attacks a piece even over 6 turns is not enough to kill 100-200 guardsment. Even given six syndonians you get a total of 108 attacks total. of which 72 will hit, 60 will wound and 40 will fail their saves, congratulations, you haven't even killed a third of the conscripts they brought, and that's assuming they don't even attack the syndonians. the stormshard mortars and the manticores then proceed to blast you in the face. Each manticore they bring will fire 7 shots average per turn, 3.5 will hit on average and 2.6 will wound, ending up at an average of about 3 wounds a turn to any onager or kastelan. which they can do from behind cover without LOS and your syndonians are tied trying to get through the massive blob army . If you are extremely unlucky enough to run up against one that has a squad of lascannons Those lascannons will fire 4 shots hit twice and on average deal 3.88 wounds per turn. luckily they can't fire out of LOS so you just shoot them and it's all good Except those two conscript squads tying up your syndonians are a fraction of the cost of your syndonians and you just got yourself into a pissing match where your opponent has more points to shoot at you with.
The last piece of the guard blob army is the wyvern who averages 14 shots a turn at you hitting with 7 and wound with 55% on stormshards str 4 thanks to rerolling all wounds so 3 again out of LOS. luckily it has no AP so you lose 1 wound.
Then the other 50 guardsmen come up and hit you with 200 shots, hitting on 5 wounding on 6 and 0 ap so 10 wounds. Now depending on how you the guard player distributed his points he has a wyvern/manticore for each robot, or walker you have and more because you have more points tied up in a pointless battle.
Good luck
2. wave serpent spam
Just for fun lets run the numbers on how much damage 2 syndonians do to a wave serpent should the gods be lucky enough to grace them with a charge. so exploding six's and WS 3 mean you come out with an average of 3 hits a turn times two walkers that's 6 hits. of which wounding on 3 means you wound 4, divided by 3 you end up doing 1.3 wounds(because wave serpents are nasy and your 2 damage counts as 1), they promptly back up and scoot away and shoot you because skimmers do that.
but they also have a movement of 16" which means you aren't going to be getting to charge them a lot and when you do, your walkers only hit them for 1 damage. and unlike stormraven spam you can just fill an entire list up with these and fire prisms. brightlances hurt too. and again it's a match up where half your army is negated by the simple fact that the other player just does not care about your fething stick weilding dudes. they aren't a threat in close combat and that means if you spend any amount of points other hoard armies can just tie them out and use superior points values in shooting to blast you to dust.
i'll do space marines tomorrow (non storm raven spam)
TL;DR the top armies do not give a gak about your dragoons they either tie them up with cheaper units or just avoid them and neither has to fear much about them doing anything resembling any amount of damage. This is why the ability to actually do damage is important,
not just being a road block
Can you please stop posting here and go play marines or whatever?? Plz i cant type properly people usually dont understand me but you sir are a joke. You posting so many different things conclusions taking as base your own opinions. I dont understand what you want to prove. Dragoons have no reall damage(so what)? They dont worth 70 points as screening unit? We are all stupid and you are pro?? You believe we dnt know how much damage they do. 100 players told you utility units dragoons we take for...
What is the question you try to answer so many posts? Dont use dragoons? We know our options we have been talking like 100 days and in many forums we wont accept a tac marine unit instead of a dragoon. Sorry now this is an ad mech forum what is the question or point you trying to prove? A spam army will win an elitish army so what? Just because a list in your brain gets wiped we gotta hear about it day after day??
Make your point sir and whoever wants accept it or not spamming all day marines are better ig won the nova or i dont know what does nothing to contribute. Dragoon for 70 points with that incence cloud -1 to get hit and large base is a good fast screener. You know how to read. Might not be superb bit its arguably our best choise if you want ad mech screener . What the f is your issue? We selling your dragoons or what?? What are you talking about ffs.
P.s.their vehicle type T6 6W makes with good defence and -1 to hit for 70 poimts makes them a good road blpck yes ( maybe not a lot better but still different from soldiers). There are a los cheap anti infantry options that wont work as good on vehicles like poison shots or plasma shots with that -1. So dont start again with infantry spamm. I know i use in my front deplyment zone and i know why.
I dont want to charge them or kill conscripts with them i just want them to eitner waste some good shots from my enemy to die , waste a ton of less shot and survive even one. And generally make my enemy bother enough to let my other impprtant units alive for a seonc round. Cant be so extreme to understand. And as for ig since mentined i use dragoons effectivelly on the deepstike plasma flank. Wanna math the -1 tohit for the plasma on that side?? I use bodies in front sure none said dragoons are doing everything. But they really provide a good fast road block with enough usage to have a place in our armies.
Even if dragoon survived an alpha strike i would not charge it on my turn. Id move it close to the enemy further away from my deploy but would not risk killing it from overwtch or cc. It really serves as road block and enemy wasted shots. Best case scenarios my enemy use his good shots wasted on dragoons and they die. Or they waste small arms and at least one survives. Thats why they are there. If you can understand it fine if not also fine but stop posting. Thanks
gendoikari87 wrote: Multi damage weapons are a thing now and six wounds in a single model can be fragile
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also damage 2 autocannon hurt when you only got a 4+ to begin with
You're not providing the math again.
With Shroudpsalm and -1 to-hit, I don't sweat autocannons - most armies are at 50% changes to-hit thanks to Incense and 66% chance to hurt us, for which we get a 50% chance to stop the damage. Not great odds there.
Lascannons are tough, but it is a 16% chance to knock us out in one shot, plus as with the autocannons, the -1 to-hit helps reduce the shots of notoriously low-shot guns and we get a 6++, which is a 16% chance to stop the damage too.
Given the benefits of Dragoons, I'll take them any day over a Tac Squad, which is a laughably bad option by comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: I wonder this myself tbh... I mean people on here saying dragoons being the best bubblewrap we have for the points, but they have less shots and less attacks than standard troops like vanguard, and they will die super fast to multi-wound weapons (which are extremely common now).
They really don't die that fast. Blandguard drop significantly faster being low toughness, single wound models with low leadership.
Most of us who are proponents are people who play competitive or semi-competitive games against a variety of opponents without any weird house rules. Just standard Matched Play. So we all put in the table time and found this out. I was skeptical at first (just go back and look through this thread), but they proved their worth every game I brought them in.
I KNEW the math. I wanted the bad poster to provide it, as it's proof of my point.
-1 to hit is BS4+ on Marines, then a 66% chance to wound, and on average does 3.5 damage. Yeah, Lascannons are SOOOoOo frightening.
gendoikari87 wrote: Multi damage weapons are a thing now and six wounds in a single model can be fragile
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also damage 2 autocannon hurt when you only got a 4+ to begin with
You're not providing the math again.
With Shroudpsalm and -1 to-hit, I don't sweat autocannons - most armies are at 50% changes to-hit thanks to Incense and 66% chance to hurt us, for which we get a 50% chance to stop the damage. Not great odds there.
Lascannons are tough, but it is a 16% chance to knock us out in one shot, plus as with the autocannons, the -1 to-hit helps reduce the shots of notoriously low-shot guns and we get a 6++, which is a 16% chance to stop the damage too.
Given the benefits of Dragoons, I'll take them any day over a Tac Squad, which is a laughably bad option by comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: I wonder this myself tbh... I mean people on here saying dragoons being the best bubblewrap we have for the points, but they have less shots and less attacks than standard troops like vanguard, and they will die super fast to multi-wound weapons (which are extremely common now).
They really don't die that fast. Blandguard drop significantly faster being low toughness, single wound models with low leadership.
Most of us who are proponents are peIpople who play competitive or semi-competitive games against a variety of opponents without any weird house rules. Just standard Matched Play. So we all put in the table time and found this out. I was skeptical at first (just go back and look through this thread), but they proved their worth every game I brought them in.
I KNEW the math. I wanted the bad poster to provide it, as it's proof of my point.
-1 to hit is BS4+ on Marines, then a 66% chance to wound, and on average does 3.5 damage. Yeah, Lascannons are SOOOoOo frightening.
I posted mostly for the sake of others, so this guy doesn't push his ill-informed nonsense.
1. Imperial guard.
so fighting the Imperial guard the guard player is going to look at your syndonians, back to his conscripts and laugh. 3 attacks a piece even over 6 turns is not enough to kill 100-200 guardsment. Even given six syndonians you get a total of 108 attacks total. of which 72 will hit, 60 will wound and 40 will fail their saves, congratulations, you haven't even killed a third of the conscripts they brought, and that's assuming they don't even attack the syndonians. the stormshard mortars and the manticores then proceed to blast you in the face. Each manticore they bring will fire 7 shots average per turn, 3.5 will hit on average and 2.6 will wound, ending up at an average of about 3 wounds a turn to any onager or kastelan. which they can do from behind cover without LOS and your syndonians are tied trying to get through the massive blob army . If you are extremely unlucky enough to run up against one that has a squad of lascannons Those lascannons will fire 4 shots hit twice and on average deal 3.88 wounds per turn. luckily they can't fire out of LOS so you just shoot them and it's all good Except those two conscript squads tying up your syndonians are a fraction of the cost of your syndonians and you just got yourself into a pissing match where your opponent has more points to shoot at you with.
The last piece of the guard blob army is the wyvern who averages 14 shots a turn at you hitting with 7 and wound with 55% on stormshards str 4 thanks to rerolling all wounds so 3 again out of LOS. luckily it has no AP so you lose 1 wound.
Then the other 50 guardsmen come up and hit you with 200 shots, hitting on 5 wounding on 6 and 0 ap so 10 wounds. Now depending on how you the guard player distributed his points he has a wyvern/manticore for each robot, or walker you have and more because you have more points tied up in a pointless battle.
Good luck
No, they will be looking at our Kastelans and wondering how to get past the Dragoons to kill them. Nobody here is going to use Dragoons to kill Conscripts. But we might use the Dragoons to CC them. 20 Conscripts won't rifle butt a Dragoon to death before the game is over, so they have to fall back; hell, 20 Conscripts with rapid fire won't even kill a Dragoon in 6 turns. If you pile in correctly, two Dragoons can block 8.8189", which is wider than Conscripts can move. Therefore, they have to fall back backwards. This means the Conscripts behind them cannot move either. They spend the entire turn shooting your Dragoons to death--with Plasma or Lascannons or Mortars probably, since it takes an average of 648 Conscript shots to kill one Dragoon with Shroudpsalm (look, math!). The next turn, your Protector Protocols come on, and you shoot 72 shots with your four Kastelans alone.
As for the Mortars, you're joking if you think they are going to out-trade our Crawlers. I mean, come on...
2. wave serpent spam
Just for fun lets run the numbers on how much damage 2 syndonians do to a wave serpent should the gods be lucky enough to grace them with a charge. so exploding six's and WS 3 mean you come out with an average of 3 hits a turn times two walkers that's 6 hits. of which wounding on 3 means you wound 4, divided by 3 you end up doing 1.3 wounds(because wave serpents are nasy and your 2 damage counts as 1), they promptly back up and scoot away and shoot you because skimmers do that.
but they also have a movement of 16" which means you aren't going to be getting to charge them a lot and when you do, your walkers only hit them for 1 damage. and unlike stormraven spam you can just fill an entire list up with these and fire prisms. brightlances hurt too. and again it's a match up where half your army is negated by the simple fact that the other player just does not care about your fething stick weilding dudes. they aren't a threat in close combat and that means if you spend any amount of points other hoard armies can just tie them out and use superior points values in shooting to blast you to dust.
Uh... Dragoons wouldn't be charging at Wave Serpents, since they can fly. Thus, they can pass through Dragoons, fall back and shoot, etc. But that's fine. Your Crawlers will gun them down. (Each Icarus Crawler does an average of 4.442 wounds, each Neutron Crawler does 4.74 wounds. If you have 3 Crawlers of any sort, that is one dead or crippled Wave Serpent per turn.)
TL;DR the top armies do not give a gak about your dragoons they either tie them up with cheaper units or just avoid them and neither has to fear much about them doing anything resembling any amount of damage. This is why the ability to actually do damage is important,
not just being a road block
Dragoons aren't supposed to deal damage. They are to prevent the opponent from dealing damage. Fact is, we will win if we spend all day taking turns shooting at 36" to 48". They have to get CC or Plasma in range to win. Also, 8 points is not a big difference between a Dragoon and a minimum squad of Conscripts.
I mean, is this really that hard to understand? Conscripts have the exact same purpose. The only difference is that Dragoons have more durability and mobility, and they have no morale problems. Oh, and they actually can hurt, if not kill, some higher wound units.
P.S. if anyone is wondering how much damage the kastelans and onagers with neutron lasers do back against T7 3+ it's 3.555 for onagers and 2.3 per robot (switched on and next to the TPD)
That Crawler figure is if you don't have any rerolls... which we do.
Uh... Dragoons wouldn't be charging at Wave Serpents, since they can fly. Thus, they can pass through Dragoons, fall back and shoot, etc. But that's fine. Your Crawlers will gun them down. (Each Icarus Crawler does an average of 4.442 wounds, each Neutron Crawler does 4.74 wounds. If you have 3 Crawlers of any sort, that is one dead or crippled Wave Serpent per turn.)
Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect
That's where it gets a little more tricky. A lot of its damage will ride on whether that Dd6 gets through, but I'd definitely bet on it doing 1 or 2 damage at a minimum, and it could easily spike to 10+ with some good rolls.
Uh... Dragoons wouldn't be charging at Wave Serpents, since they can fly. Thus, they can pass through Dragoons, fall back and shoot, etc. But that's fine. Your Crawlers will gun them down.
JFC you are all missing the point. if you are spending points that do nothing either because the enemy isn't afraid of them, can tie them up with cheaper units, or outright just ignore them. you are fighting on different point levels. so it won't matter that your onagers do more damage per turn because they will out number and out gun you. Your good units are essentially having to pick up slack where the opponents army is already starting at an advantage. Maybe they can intercept a charge or two. Congrats. Now what if your enemy is a gunline with 200 troops, or has multiple power fists? or can fly. or uses the anti tank to take out the skirmishers so they can get their CC units to shut down your shooting?
hell they could have a 1000 wounds and a 1++ save, they kill max 4 models a turn. IG aint' gonna give a gak, toss a conscript blob at it, orks certainly won't give a F***. neither will eldar, nids, hell most of the CC heavy armies will just say " here have a snack, while the rest of us just go around here"
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Multiple power fists going after a 60 point model? That's a good tradeoff considering on average you'd need 3 Power Fists to have hit and wounded it.
5 man terminator squad has 11 attacks, that's average of 7. they thank you for the free 2d6 movement, kill one consolidate 3" to the other side of the remaining dragoon, then you either have to fall back and let them pass, get charged or die in the next round and by the time they come back to their turn the dragoons are gone, they're 2d6+3" closer to your gunline. when they could have instead simply done nothing and it would take another one to two turns for that same unit to get to the same place
the smarter idea is to make sure what ever you are screening with takes several down with them or is so cheap you can litter the board with them.... or just put it to more shooting.
I'm not a fan of dragoons myself, but I'm pretty sure what the people taking them are thinking of is more along the lines of deep-strike denial than actual body-blocking (as they don't take up nearly enough board space to body-block).
Some IG lists use sentinels for the same thing. The sentinel doesn't really do much other than be a cheap nuisance and project a 10.5" (9"+1.5" wide base) no-drop bubble.
Though in my case, I'd prefer to use Skittari for that because of detachment slots. Unless I'm taking a Brigade, I don't need fast attack slots. All the slots I actually want in an AdMech list are HS and Elites. The best way to get a good mix of all three slots is to take a Battalion and a Heavy Support detachment (because the way I build skews a bit more toward HS than the others).
So, I'm gonna need some mandatory troops. Which will pretty much cover deep-strike denial anyway.
If you're looking to fill a brigade as pure AdMech though, welp Dragoons and Ballistari are your only FA options. Dragoons are a bit cheaper (because the Ballistari's guns are expensive), the Ballistari has guns. Matter of taste which one you take I suppose.
sentinels do a lot more than just block. you can actually put some decent threatning guns on them. and if you just want to deny deep strikes we have a better unit for that: Skitarii. or ally in a handful of guard. they'll take up a much bigger area.
also back in the day when i was running IG as tech guard i used sentinels as Mini CC power houses. armored sentinels. see the way it worked was if you lost combat you'd take a moral test, and in CC you fought the FRONT armor of walkers. so you'd charge a unit, kill one or two, maybe, they had to hit and do something ridiculous to damage you. if they weren't running a power fist. so you'd win combat by one and hopefully they'd flee.
NOT something that would work at all the same way today but still, it was fun.
Rolsheen wrote: Well I was going to wait until the codex dropped to buy anymore models but I think you've sold me on getting a dragoon or two
For most 2k lists I am running, 2x2 seems to be what I keep coming to. It is a measly 272pt, but gives you a wide range of deep strike protection, screening, and mobile objective grabbers. Very handy!
I know they are stupidly expensive models though, but even a pair is good to replace some Blandguard. I can't imagine they will make Skitarii on par with Dragoons for what modern AdMech runs. They would need a big point drop and some pseudo-Fearless (or you know... Fearless, like they are in the fluff!) just to be worthwhile.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Multiple power fists going after a 60 point model? That's a good tradeoff considering on average you'd need 3 Power Fists to have hit and wounded it.
5 man terminator squad has 11 attacks, that's average of 7. they thank you for the free 2d6 movement, kill one consolidate 3" to the other side of the remaining dragoon, then you either have to fall back and let them pass, get charged or die in the next round and by the time they come back to their turn the dragoons are gone, they're 2d6+3" closer to your gunline. when they could have instead simply done nothing and it would take another one to two turns for that same unit to get to the same place
the smarter idea is to make sure what ever you are screening with takes several down with them or is so cheap you can litter the board with them.... or just put it to more shooting.
You're not making that Deep Strike charge often unless you're going Black Templars or Minotaurs w/ Asterion. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Please get out of this Tactica so actual Mechanicus players can do discussion please.
Niiru wrote:
Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect
Unless I messed up my numbers, doesn't seem it. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that they're roughly on par against Wave Serpents. Compared to Neutron, Icarus tends to be more reliable against flyers and flexible against MEQs and below. I think the numbers against something like Battlesuits are much more impressive.
gendoikari87 wrote:
JFC you are all missing the point. if you are spending points that do nothing either because the enemy isn't afraid of them, can tie them up with cheaper units, or outright just ignore them. you are fighting on different point levels. so it won't matter that your onagers do more damage per turn because they will out number and out gun you. Your good units are essentially having to pick up slack where the opponents army is already starting at an advantage. Maybe they can intercept a charge or two. Congrats. Now what if your enemy is a gunline with 200 troops, or has multiple power fists? or can fly. or uses the anti tank to take out the skirmishers so they can get their CC units to shut down your shooting?
hell they could have a 1000 wounds and a 1++ save, they kill max 4 models a turn. IG aint' gonna give a gak, toss a conscript blob at it, orks certainly won't give a F***. neither will eldar, nids, hell most of the CC heavy armies will just say " here have a snack, while the rest of us just go around here"
By this argument, we shouldn't run screens at all. I mean, even Conscripts don't do much damage. Their value is in how they can body block, sponge wounds, and maybe kill GEQs. They can't even threaten the Dragoons that you're comparing them unfavorably against, which cost only 8 more points more.
Somehow 
- I will have a chance to test out some options. First goal is the maxed out Crusader. RFBC, Gatling, Stormspear for the most firepower possible. It will also be a solid screen unit to augment my Dragoons, I think. So my artillery should be a wee bit safer.
10 would at least get me into a position to shoot some stuff, but I digress.
I was a tad peeved at my lack of ability to kill stuff this game. If I could have knocked out his rhino T1, I could have focused on killing the other rhinos the next turn. I caught a squad of zerkers in the open on T2 and obliterated them, but the others got to stay inside their boxes until they jumped out and charged. We all know how that went... 
zerkers fighting twice is NUTS. Made a mistake with cawl and got him charged by some zerkers and they didn't even need their second fight phase to kill him. I had my knight on 1w and a TPD on 4w at the end when we called it. It was a kill point game.
You just play what is fun or looks cool, etc. So yea, that assumption is pretty justified.
