Pretty nice way to nerf parking lot SM lists. Slight nerf to Ghaz too though which is a bummer.
the wording indicates only some auras are being nerfed to not affect the user, so we will see "many of the most powerful aura abilities will only affect Core units from a Character’s (sub-)faction" not all just many
gungo wrote: I’m still of the mind our only truly competitive lists are
goff greentide boys with mega Orks
Or deffskulls buggy lists
And I’m hesitant about the future of buggy lists once the imperium gets thier massive codex boost (not to mention the Fw book update mainly helps them) and we are stuck waiting for the ork codex to update our weapons.
I think lists will open up more once our codex comes out...
I'm not inclined to agree there. The Ork codex has so many viable builds in it, I've had success with dreads (shooting and fighting), buggies, bikes, vehicles, hordes, I've got a trial list of the all-tellyporting army of doom to try out (deffkoptas and kommandos for DS, then boys and da jump for more deepstrike, plus shokkjump dragstas for even more deepstrike...)... There's so much option in Ork armies, whittling it down to 2 builds, and one of them widely regarded as effective but kinda boring to run (green tide), is very much a narrow approach or an exceptionally diverse army! Possibly the most diverse army in the game.
I agree. I know that a few years ago there was a Tyranid Player that brought a bunch of Lictors (which I believe at the time was pretty off meta because at the time it was all Flyrant spam) and he won a GT. People who bring things that are different can do decently even if they aren't one of the things that we call viable. I think that we should encourage people to try to find lists instead of bullying them by saying "things are meta for a reason" both in a tournament setting and in casual play.
Knowledge of your army, other armies can do, and what your mission is what wins games. If you can bring a list you know very well and understand what your opponent can do will do more than picking a list from the internet that "wins games".
Yeah, that's big for us, since we are one of the few factions where we don't rely on auras as the cornerstone of our list and blobbing to take advantage of it. This is a good way of toning down rerolls in the game without completely gutting it as a rule, we'll see what counts as "core" for a lot of SM lists, since intercessors will still be a problem but if Aggressors aren't affected that makes a big change for what units can just walk up and delete units with impunity. It also makes Smash Captains much less reliable.
I do hope that means WAAAGH! doesn't change to only affect core units though, because it'd be kind of dumb if we end up in another pre-FAQ Ghaz situation again where the Warboss can get his boyz to run, but he himself can't get stuck in.
I guess the most prominent auras that get the "core units only" treatment will be rerolling hits & wounds. Thats a fairly basic one that most armies have access to. (even Orks )
More specialised ones like advancing & charging might get the same treatment or simply circumvent it by adding the rule on the relevant datasheets itself.
(Like Warboss & Ghazgkull.)
At last there are the rare, army specific ones like Death Guard dealing mortal wounds or Magnus letting Psykers reroll 1s.
They might stay, as they are some powerfull but also unique and thematic abilities or simply don`t make any sense otherwise.
But that Chapter master + Lieutenant nerf is allready quite a step and is overall great for us since we basicly play without aura rerolls and don`t care much about this.
I`m looking forward to see the SM release for more information, i guess we will see then how GW will probably treat future books.
Also strategems / warlord traits that still buff other units / one other unit might become a thing. Kinda like AoS where you have command abilities that often buff just one unit.
I highly doubt that the Waaagh! aura would be limited in such a way after they went through the trouble to FAQ Thrakka to benefit from his own Waaagh!.
cody.d. wrote: Isn't that a bit of a rude assertion to make of someone you don't know?
The herd mentality is strong.
I think everyone doesn´t see a difference between before and now. Before killing and durability was VP, but now it just isn´t. The game has widened from a kill most to zone control, which is totally different. As such I find e.g. the Boyz discussion skewed. The answer to the question why take Boyz if they get shot by the opponent is "what did they not shoot then?"
Not sure if it's herd mentality as much as talking to someone with basic curtesy, let's have some orkish civility.
As for the aura changes, it'll be interesting to see how this affects things. Some armies will be hit harder I think, depending on how GW chooses to pass out the Core keyword. Maybe we'll see big changes to say, the tau riptide lists if the commanders re-roll buff only affects core. The community page only mentioned captain and lieutenants, goodness knows if this will be affecting painboyz, Waaagh banners or the like. Most of our Auras aren't as straight forword as just re-rolling 1s. We get odd little movement buffs or durability buffs. IF KFFs only work on core and assuming none of the vehicles get core then that's going to be one hell of a blow to mech lists. I mean it could be worth it to not be hit by a full squad of centurions rerolling everything throwing dakka down range.
This could really shift up what we can expect to see on the field in most of the game.
It's highly doubtful the KFF, a literal force field, would somehow not affect our squishy vehicles, or Orks signature thing, advancing and charging, would somehow be taken away.
Neither is game breaking like universally never having your army miss.
They are trying to limit re-rolls in the game because they make units too efficient for too little cost. This also will help speed up the game.
It's also possible they may restructure our auras as a whole whenever the codex comes out. After all, the wartrikes buff currently affects a fair few units of varying usefulness. If just things like bikers become core, but not the various battlewagons, deffdreads and other vehicles with okay assault ability (including himself) then the wartrikes utility would absolutely plummet.
That would be crippling to both buggy spam and boy spam since it would effect every warboss, ghaz and likely speedboss unit...I don’t think they will change it since it’s already limited to ork infantry (no Gretchin).
But ya ghaz reroll abd Waagh banner both are exactly the reroll auras I don’t think GW wants working on every battlewagon, kan, or dread..
operkoi wrote: My big fear is warbosses and/or ghaz loosing advance + charge if Waaagh! is one of those auras becoming core only
As pointed out above, this is very unlikely to happen, as it would go against the very intent of the change itself - heros leading from the front.
I think it will happen. Captains not getting re rolls themselves. Why should bosses get to charge after advance. We'll see if the biker boss is going to pass the aura to boyz. And if he will, just go back to the biker version.
9 meganobs, 3 units of 5 tankbustas 2 units of 10 boys with only one trukk between them, so lots of little units walking, I feel like they won't get that far. 3 Meganobs is the toughest unit there and even that isn't enormously hard to kill, and with movement 4, they would have to be aimed at standing by nearby objectives, really. The warboss can run with them, but the best targets for da jump (30 boys) will need to hang around with the weirdboy and the boss to keep them from being a target - if he's in with the MANs, then the opponent only has to kill 1 MAN from each squad and he's a target.
I think that one of their deff dreads has 5 arms; guessing all of them have 2 KMB, 1 big shoota and a klaw.
Traktor kannons seem to be overlooked quite often. Presumably because you have a good chance of getting more than 1 hit with other mek guns - kustom mega kannon springing to mind. Having 2 guaranteed S8 hits in your army isn't a bad thing to have, though.
I honesly don't know how I feel about the list. On one hand, it'll be easy to kill the units. On the other, there are a lot of units and they will perform lots of actions, and they are all objective secured, so will have board control. But very little staying power.
I think if the 3 stormboys mobs stick together on one flank and focus on linebreaker, objectives and mobbing up on some weaker units, they will do alright.
operkoi wrote: My big fear is warbosses and/or ghaz loosing advance + charge if Waaagh! is one of those auras becoming core only
As pointed out above, this is very unlikely to happen, as it would go against the very intent of the change itself - heros leading from the front.
I think it will happen. Captains not getting re rolls themselves. Why should bosses get to charge after advance. We'll see if the biker boss is going to pass the aura to boyz. And if he will, just go back to the biker version.
Because they errata'ed Thrakka's aura to do exactly that. GW clearly things that warbosses should be able to Waaagh! just like every other orks.
Bosses should get to charge because that's what ork bosses do - they charge in first and expect the ladz to follow. Don't forget that Waaagh! used to be an army-wide rule and only got turned into an aura in 8th.
Not allowing them to advance and charge would be one of the most stupid things the could do, and it would have the exact opposite effect of what they are trying to do with that "core change" - ork warbosses will hang back instead of leading from the front. It would go against the entire reasoning behind the "core" change.
Something that's also possible is that warbosses simply get the "core" keyword, while something like a weird boy doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scactha wrote: Agree, their point is that it´s mainly a narrative change. A good thing imo.
What do you think about this one from Art of War? They toot their horns alot about being very competitive.
Spoiler:
Warboss (Attack Squig, Da Biggest Boss, Da Killa Klaw, Kunnin but Brutal, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Warlord) 83
I don't know about Art of War, but this clearly looks like a marine/eldar player tried to write an ork list without having any real insight on how the army works. Pretty much the typical thing you see on youtube channels.
I think it's a fair bet that WAAAGH! stays the same, as it already stipulates that it affects Infantry. The addition of "Core" units is because of auras which affect everything in range, including tanks, which is obviously causing the armies to play differently to how the designers intedned - chapter masters should be buffing infantry and not tanks. It's also a fair assumption that they will keep buffing dreadnoughts, because otherwise why would they not just say "Infantry" in the rule instead of adding a whole new "Core" system.
I think the "Core" system will add something nice to the game, if I'm honest. the traditional elite, heavy, fast, troop, hq setup is too narrow for the units in the game these days, so having a separate "Core" tag which denotes units which look to their leaders for inspiration, and then the non-core stuff is functionally independent, will add a lot to the game.
some bloke wrote: I think it's a fair bet that WAAAGH! stays the same, as it already stipulates that it affects Infantry. The addition of "Core" units is because of auras which affect everything in range, including tanks, which is obviously causing the armies to play differently to how the designers intedned - chapter masters should be buffing infantry and not tanks. It's also a fair assumption that they will keep buffing dreadnoughts, because otherwise why would they not just say "Infantry" in the rule instead of adding a whole new "Core" system.
I think the "Core" system will add something nice to the game, if I'm honest. the traditional elite, heavy, fast, troop, hq setup is too narrow for the units in the game these days, so having a separate "Core" tag which denotes units which look to their leaders for inspiration, and then the non-core stuff is functionally independent, will add a lot to the game.
I agree. The core system and the 0-1 limitation of some HQs was introduced because a few armies can put one or two cheap HQ near tanks to give them generic re-rolls. Re-rolls that work for every unit and in both phases. GW wanted to remove this mechanic, Waaagh has always been a rule for orks, it would be very silly if warbosses can't benefit from it anymore. It's very different than removing re-rolls on WS2+/BS2+ characters. Ghaz will probably lose his re-rolling 1s ability for himself, not the Waaagh.
operkoi wrote: My big fear is warbosses and/or ghaz loosing advance + charge if Waaagh! is one of those auras becoming core only
As pointed out above, this is very unlikely to happen, as it would go against the very intent of the change itself - heros leading from the front.
I think it will happen. Captains not getting re rolls themselves. Why should bosses get to charge after advance. We'll see if the biker boss is going to pass the aura to boyz. And if he will, just go back to the biker version.
Because they errata'ed Thrakka's aura to do exactly that. GW clearly things that warbosses should be able to Waaagh! just like every other orks.
Bosses should get to charge because that's what ork bosses do - they charge in first and expect the ladz to follow. Don't forget that Waaagh! used to be an army-wide rule and only got turned into an aura in 8th.
Not allowing them to advance and charge would be one of the most stupid things the could do, and it would have the exact opposite effect of what they are trying to do with that "core change" - ork warbosses will hang back instead of leading from the front. It would go against the entire reasoning behind the "core" change.
Something that's also possible is that warbosses simply get the "core" keyword, while something like a weird boy doesn't.
But that's exactly what they manage to pull off every time. Just take a look at clan rules when they got implemented. Evil sunz never get used in speedy lists and instead are used to buff meganobz and foots logging boyz. Snakebites don't stack with painboy and this are only used in mechanical lists to get some extra durability for vehicles. Infamous blood axes buff units that stand in the open while ptproviding no real benefit to... Blood axe kommandoes. And so on.
I think making bosses loose their ability to advance and charge is EXACTLY what gw would do. At least till the first couple faqs. Also, faq getting invalidated with the next rules update is not unheard of.
Well, if you already assume that GW will feth up everything, now is probably the best time to sell your army while the marine players still think orks are top tier *shrugs*.
Right now, we know what their intention behind this change is and we know that they intend bosses to charge and advance, and we also know that they are quite likely to back out of changes that screw over orks because they are aware of the massive backlashes this causes on social media channels.
I'm fairly confident that while orks are fairly lucky if they gain anything from the next codex, we are pretty unlikely to lose anything.
I don't know about Art of War, but this clearly looks like a marine/eldar player tried to write an ork list without having any real insight on how the army works. Pretty much the typical thing you see on youtube channels.
Art of War is the house that John Lennon, Richard Siegler, Mark Perry, and Nick Nanavati live in.
That's a Mark Perry list. Guy is obviously good at 40k, but I feel like his approach to Ork lists is nonsensical.
some bloke wrote: I think if the 3 stormboys mobs stick together on one flank and focus on linebreaker, objectives and mobbing up on some weaker units, they will do alright.
'tis an odd list, so it is.
This one confused me in particular. In what cases are Storms better than Kommandos? When you actually want to kill something I guess.
More on the Core discussion. I think this is also driven on an aesthetic perspective. The game just doesn´t match the art and that´s disappointing. I get the feeling that they want the game to play more as you´d envision. Not the typical wargame killfest where everyone is chasing the killiest stuff and huff and puff over being forced to take "non functional" choices.
Another possible driver is finance. If players go competitive and buys the most lethal stuff, other things suffer. This one is impossible to evaluate from the outside, but it´s reasonable for the to try and spread out the power across their products.
some bloke wrote: I think if the 3 stormboys mobs stick together on one flank and focus on linebreaker, objectives and mobbing up on some weaker units, they will do alright.
'tis an odd list, so it is.
This one confused me in particular. In what cases are Storms better than Kommandos? When you actually want to kill something I guess.
Stormboyz can achieve turn 1 charges -- you can auto advance them 6". Can be advantageous.
Honestly, I think Stormboyz are great action bots that you can possibly field on the board, while you have to deep strike or transport Kommandos. If they are perfectly deep strike screening you out, Stormboyz can possibly get in position to do scramblers. You could also have them raise a banner turn 1 on a more middle objective as they have a 12" move.
They can even ride in transports, albeit taking two slots -- but you could do something like this.
Turn 1: unit of stormboyz scramblers in your zone, while a trukk advances to the midboard. Turn 2: Stormboyz move or advance to the trukk, get inside, the trukk moves up so they can get into position for an opportunistic charge or to do another action.
They cost a bit more than Kommandos but I think they have play. It just largely depends on your board and how well your opponents screen out deep strikers if it's worth paying a bit more. They just aren't as easy to use as Kommando.
I don't know about Art of War, but this clearly looks like a marine/eldar player tried to write an ork list without having any real insight on how the army works. Pretty much the typical thing you see on youtube channels.
Art of War is the house that John Lennon, Richard Siegler, Mark Perry, and Nick Nanavati live in.
That's a Mark Perry list. Guy is obviously good at 40k, but I feel like his approach to Ork lists is nonsensical.
I see. Apparently Mark is a genius when it comes to playing chaos and now tries to apply that knowledge to orks. Makes sense when you look at the list.
It's also worth noting that Nick Nanavati failed to make orks work for him for over half a year, and not for the lack of trying. It's simply not an army you can switch to when they become powerful. Almost all top placements across 8th were done by ork veterans who play them as at least one of their primary armies.
To be fair top tier ork greentide is hard to play...
It’s unforgiving on mistakes as the movement phase tends to be extremely important...
You have to understand your opponents army... deny them their own area of movement. Try to engage as many of your units by charges or multi charges and the pile ins. All while keeping units in range of painsboys, kff and now ghaz auras. It’s mentally draining preplanning those movements because that’s how greentide wins.
tulun wrote: Stormboyz can achieve turn 1 charges -- you can auto advance them 6". Can be advantageous.
Honestly, I think Stormboyz are great action bots that you can possibly field on the board, while you have to deep strike or transport Kommandos. If they are perfectly deep strike screening you out, Stormboyz can possibly get in position to do scramblers. You could also have them raise a banner turn 1 on a more middle objective as they have a 12" move.
They can even ride in transports, albeit taking two slots -- but you could do something like this.
Turn 1: unit of stormboyz scramblers in your zone, while a trukk advances to the midboard. Turn 2: Stormboyz move or advance to the trukk, get inside, the trukk moves up so they can get into position for an opportunistic charge or to do another action.
They cost a bit more than Kommandos but I think they have play. It just largely depends on your board and how well your opponents screen out deep strikers if it's worth paying a bit more. They just aren't as easy to use as Kommando.
Good points.Going over stuff is the same reason I use Raptors in my CSM. Button pushers galore.
Jidmah wrote: Well, if you already assume that GW will feth up everything, now is probably the best time to sell your army while the marine players still think orks are top tier *shrugs*.
Right now, we know what their intention behind this change is and we know that they intend bosses to charge and advance, and we also know that they are quite likely to back out of changes that screw over orks because they are aware of the massive backlashes this causes on social media channels.
I'm fairly confident that while orks are fairly lucky if they gain anything from the next codex, we are pretty unlikely to lose anything.
On the contrary, I bought 70% of my current collection during 6th when all local ork players were selling stuff.
I think get will forget about warbosses but it's not as bad for us. Marines and csm are getting debuffed way more severely. Yeah, advancing + charging with a killa klaw boss is really good but we'll have to play without it. I think we'll pull it off regardless.
operkoi wrote: My big fear is warbosses and/or ghaz loosing advance + charge if Waaagh! is one of those auras becoming core only
As pointed out above, this is very unlikely to happen, as it would go against the very intent of the change itself - heros leading from the front.
I think it will happen. Captains not getting re rolls themselves. Why should bosses get to charge after advance. We'll see if the biker boss is going to pass the aura to boyz. And if he will, just go back to the biker version.
Keep in mind the history of these buffs. Did SM characters provide rerolls prior to 8th? On the other hand, what did Warbosses do? Basically they were character beat sticks if I remember correctly. So what GW did was give SM players incredibly powerful buffs, reroll hits/wounds (Either of 1 or in general). What did orkz get? We lost our Waaagh Army ability and moved it into an aura for the warboss. So our buff was technically a limitation on what we could previously do. Granted it became a constant small area buff instead of a once a game buff. I have to be honest though, i do miss those surprised faces when I screamed WAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!! in a game store, both from the people nearby who are usually scared and from my opponent who didn't realize my Ork boyz were going to 6 +D6 + 2D6 into his face.
RedNoak wrote: Nobody talking about the return of the Warboss on bike? ...is this old news or did i miss it in the thread??
They previewed the FW book last weekend. Apparently they got rid of zhardsnark and replaced him with a generic 'warboss on warbike'
Oh it has been mate, and I think a lotta people are pretty keen on it. I'm sorta concerned if we'll lose some options, become killsaw only. (which will be alleviated if the killsaw gets a buff or we get a relic killsaw in the next book)
im not sure if he'd lose options because FW did not adapt the "no model no rules" thing last time. Stuff they werent selling went away but they didnt strip a bunch of options that normally you'd have to kitbash.
Vineheart01 wrote: im not sure if he'd lose options because FW did not adapt the "no model no rules" thing last time. Stuff they werent selling went away but they didnt strip a bunch of options that normally you'd have to kitbash.
Certainly possible. But haven't we heard that GW will be writing the new rules for all the Forgeworld stuff? Or was that misinformation I heard somewhere? (both are as likely as not)
I mean, at this point we have no idea if FW will be changing their rule writing style. I'm assuming they're waiting till all the new weapon profiles are updated/confirmed/released so stuff has a semblance of coherency.
What we know about the FW books so far is that they are indeed written by GW this time, we know elysians and R&H aren't coming back and despite that over 100 datasheets are missing compared to the current indexes.
Considering that massive discrepancy in datasheets, it's pretty likely that anything without a model is going away.
Warboss on bike coming back has me thinking about my old biker list, hmm...
On another note, I hear Orks got second place in one tournament by running out the clock so I bet you all are excited to be such an overpowered meta-crushing experience!
But to get to the serious question; what do people think about the future of the deffopta?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Warboss on bike coming back has me thinking about my old biker list, hmm...
On another note, I hear Orks got second place in one tournament by running out the clock so I bet you all are excited to be such an overpowered meta-crushing experience!
He said that the clock running out helped, not that he was aiming for it. Keep in mind that most tournament circuits allow people to time their games with chess clocks now, so gaming the clock is not an actual option.
But to get to the serious question; what do people think about the future of the deffopta?
It's a fast unit in with an ok pricetag. While you probably don't want to run units of five in an infantry list because of bring it down, but it's definitely an option for any list that's already giving up 15 VP of vehicles/monsters anyways.
He said that the clock running out helped, not that he was aiming for it. Keep in mind that most tournament circuits allow people to time their games with chess clocks now, so gaming the clock is not an actual option.
True, but many tournament games typically end before their natural conclusion anyway because there is a time limitation that is necessary to allow 4-5 games in the same day.
3 turns games help green tide armies a lot instead of possible 5 turns ones.
If you are playing on a chess clock and you only manage to play 3 turns, your opponent will still get 5. For all ITC and ETC games, players are usually allowed to ask the TO for a chess clock if they assume time is going to be a problem.
We' ll see. I have a bad experiences with one flyier. One is not enought. Enemy usually focus the fire T1 on the flyier. And takes one down. Nothing left.
Take two (or three - in 8th always three), or nothing. I take wazboom and bommer. Wazboom looks bigger, have a big gunz, gives 5++, is deployed on front and looks like A-10 Warhog, so they fire on wazboom. Sometimes kills him. Sometimes not. But Eadbut will happen, because Bommer deployed in rear and looks smaller and unarmed is untouched. Little bit more of psychological warfare than mathammer, but works fine
Deffkoptas are an ok-ish scoring unit. They deal close to no damage but are very fast and have fly. Which is very important to grab objectives or get into table quarters for secondaries. They do give up easy points themselves, so not all lists will benefit from koptas. But both our main archetypes - green tide and buggy spam - don't mind a kopts or two flying around if you have a free FA slot.
Deff Koptas can basically guarantee you engage on all fronts turn 1 / 2. By turn 3, you're probably all over the board or dead.
Seems like a great use of 70 points to me to guarantee 4 VPs, as well as screen out deep strikers.
The caveat is that the FA attack is super, super contested imo. It might be our best slot right now, between KBB, Dragsters, Mega Trakks, Stormboyz and Deff Koptas.
Deff Koptas are great - i use them just for engage turn 1-2 and it works like a charm, especially paired with Dragstas.
2 with big shootas are 70 points which is fair. If i got 30 points to spare somehow i give them kopta rokkits. They are quite expensive and will still die quick, but i like the reliable Dakka they put out as DS.
But yeah, the FA slot is really crowded. 2 patrol give you 4 slots for 2 koptas and 2x3 Scrapjets + 2x3 Dragsta.
The big downside with the Outrider detachment is the 3 CP tax even if it is your only detachment. Combined with all the kustom jobs and other stuff i end up with less than 6 CP most of the time. :(
I am still not a 100% convinced about the KBB. Sure it`s really cheap, has a great strategem, an mediocre - okish kustom job and good chaff cleaning potential, but the main gun kinda disappoints most of the time. Right now i have 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets and 1 KBB. But honestly i think i will rather play more Scrapjets or other stuff than getting more KBB.
Has someone here had success with 2-4 KBB?
I’m fairly certain we will never get an updated deffkopta. Instead it will get legend and we get a new dual kit ork kopter with the only difference between the two new units is weapon load outs. One will likely have a bunch of big shootas and have a 10 man transport.. the other more like the wazbom loadout and no capacity. This is literally how gw creates sales and revenue now.
gungo wrote: I’m fairly certain we will never get an updated deffkopta. Instead it will get legend and we get a new dual kit ork kopter with the only difference between the two new units is weapon load outs. One will likely have a bunch of big shootas and have a 10 man transport.. the other more like the wazbom loadout and no capacity. This is literally how gw creates sales and revenue now.
I still cant believe they made tons of new plastic ones for AOBR and never made them the official model
gungo wrote: I’m fairly certain we will never get an updated deffkopta. Instead it will get legend and we get a new dual kit ork kopter with the only difference between the two new units is weapon load outs. One will likely have a bunch of big shootas and have a 10 man transport.. the other more like the wazbom loadout and no capacity. This is literally how gw creates sales and revenue now.
I still cant believe they made tons of new plastic ones for AOBR and never made them the official model
This was before they pretty much promo-ed kits in starters for later release, I'm sure if they did that now, it would have eventually been released separately.
I think gungo is right though, given what we got with the new buggies with how they basically split it into 5 different units, I could see something similar in having different variations.
Yeah, i could easily see the Deffkopta going to more of a jetbuggy instead of a jetbike and having 3-4 variants Especially considering the Chinork was basically a Deffkopta with a platform trailing behind it and bigger blades on top, and its not being sold anymore, it would make sense to beef it up like they did the buggies. Probably double if not triple its cost as a result too.
Quite frankly, long as they dont do the 6 freaking standalone, static, no option packages again i'd be fine with it anyway.
I could see them doing the archeotech bomber route they did with the mechanicus flyer, not sure if it'd be actual aircraft or not, but I'd prefer having a multipart option kit than, as you said, 6 completely separate monopose/option kits.
Mmm I could see that happening. Each kopter having a unique loadout. But would it give it a unique purpose aside from the new buggies? I suppose being units of 5, having fly and being a bit more fragile/cheaper. I suppose it could be okay.
GW rarely remakes a vehicle anymore.
They will sell less deffkoptas with just an updated model...
But they will sell a ton more if you are forced to throw out all your old deffkoptas and have to buy the new ork chopper... even better if they can make that single kit into 2 seperate unit entries!!!
What worries me is they are doing the same tactic to infantry. The whole primarus thing is just a way for GW to sell new marines to everyone...
I’m hoping the new ork model we saw is just an updated ork boy and not some ork boy replacement disguised as a new boy unit. The good news is we just had a new edition so the deffkopta likely won’t get legends for at least 3+ more years!
gungo wrote: GW rarely remakes a vehicle anymore.
They will sell less deffkoptas with just an updated model...
But they will sell a ton more if you are forced to throw out all your old deffkoptas and have to buy the new ork chopper... even better if they can make that single kit into 2 seperate unit entries!!!
What worries me is they are doing the same tactic to infantry. The whole primarus thing is just a way for GW to sell new marines to everyone...
I’m hoping the new ork model we saw is just an updated ork boy and not some ork boy replacement disguised as a new boy unit. The good news is we just had a new edition so the deffkopta likely won’t get legends for at least 3+ more years!
Ideally the Ork model is for something else altogether, as mentioned before, having a new boy kit would ruin all the other compatible kits if it has the same monopose features of a lot of the newer kits, since right now a lot of stuff is interchangeable with the base boyz kit.
gungo wrote: GW rarely remakes a vehicle anymore.
They will sell less deffkoptas with just an updated model...
But they will sell a ton more if you are forced to throw out all your old deffkoptas and have to buy the new ork chopper... even better if they can make that single kit into 2 seperate unit entries!!!
I agree. But I think they are done with FA slots for the foreseeable future.
gungo wrote: GW rarely remakes a vehicle anymore.
They will sell less deffkoptas with just an updated model...
But they will sell a ton more if you are forced to throw out all your old deffkoptas and have to buy the new ork chopper... even better if they can make that single kit into 2 seperate unit entries!!!
What worries me is they are doing the same tactic to infantry. The whole primarus thing is just a way for GW to sell new marines to everyone...
I’m hoping the new ork model we saw is just an updated ork boy and not some ork boy replacement disguised as a new boy unit. The good news is we just had a new edition so the deffkopta likely won’t get legends for at least 3+ more years!
Ideally the Ork model is for something else altogether, as mentioned before, having a new boy kit would ruin all the other compatible kits if it has the same monopose features of a lot of the newer kits, since right now a lot of stuff is interchangeable with the base boyz kit.
Agreed - we don't need updates for our existing plastic kits. We need plastic replacements for our resin kits and more plastic HQs.
Big trakk with big lobba? Why not Da Boomer instead? It costs 1 CP but it's more durable, has better offensive output and it's 10pts cheaper.
I was just testing it out tbh. Indirect actually seems really strong in 9th from what I've seen.
If it was 30-40 points cheaper, it might be a really interesting choice. I don't think it was worth the price, but it did what I wanted it to. It held my back objective while picking out screens / threatening units that he was trying to keep hidden.
I am very interested to see what they do with the new FW rules.
I lost the game by 9 points but that largely was me forgetting to move a model... and that cost me 10 primary. Doom makes short work of wagons, too.
And hell, Ghaz is a champ. Even in a matchup where I'm terrified he's gonna get 1 rounded due to smite, he makes a big impact.
In the case of kommandos, I'm curious as to whether you felt the points spent on the nob was worthwhile.
They got me scramblers, rather easily. Did exactly what I expected them to.
Kommandos I think it's up to you. If you are literally just having them to deploy scramblers / engage on all fronts, then you could probably save the points if you need it. If you want them to actually be able to threaten tanks and stuff? Take the Klaw.
It gives them utility, but it's really up to you if you think you need that in your list. I'd say 10 points to increase the utility of the unit seems fine to me.
Edit - -I think next time I play, I wanna try one of two things.
1) Use Deathskull Double Choppa Nobs as a rep for Boys. Straight up for 5 more points, you get 5 models with a 4+ save, 2 wounds each, with str 5 that can potentially perform the same thing as 10 boys, and both have Obsec. If you have extra points too, you can always upgrade the unit to have some big choppas.
Or
2) Use Kommandos as a boy squad. Take a vanguard, mount up 3 units of Kommandos, and sit em in Trukks. With the nob, this saves me 35 points a unit. Basically, use them as boys. This would net me 105 points, which nearly gets me a Mega Trakk or another unit of Mega Nobs.
I think the double choppa nob thing seems more fun, though, as Nobs don't get much love.
I was looking at the Goff list that placed recently (with the skarboyz, Ghaz and MAKFF Mek)....wondering how he would hold objectives in his deployment zone? Everything in the list seems pretty aggro and wanting to get to the enemies deployment zone/lines. Theres no grots or mek gunz or anything to sit back.
Thinking of maybe combining the MANz into 1 squad (to jump) and dropping the 2x trukks in favor of Mek gunz or grots to hold objectives in my deployment?
Billagio wrote: I was looking at the Goff list that placed recently (with the skarboyz, Ghaz and MAKFF Mek)....wondering how he would hold objectives in his deployment zone? Everything in the list seems pretty aggro and wanting to get to the enemies deployment zone/lines. Theres no grots or mek gunz or anything to sit back.
Thinking of maybe combining the MANz into 1 squad (to jump) and dropping the 2x trukks in favor of Mek gunz or grots to hold objectives in my deployment?
He has kommandos, dont forget that. If the opponent has screened enough that he can't fit any in his backlines, you can always just choose to deploy them normally on backfield objectives.
Played local tournament today and there is simple answer to questions about kommandos and nobz instead boyz.
1. Nobz instead boyz? No. 4+ is nothing. Every hummie has -2 ap. And Objectives!!§ everybody has objsec and than the models count! 10 boyz is more then 5 nobz.
2. Kommandos - yessss. Workhorse! And both setting - with and without PK Nob has a use. Wanna DS to enemy deploy to do scramblers and die? Why pay more? But in T3, there are pretty often objectives guarded by small units or single character. And DS and charge gives you Engage + solid chance to take the objective and kill some hummies. I had 2 PK mobs of 5 and it was NOT enought. I take 4 units next time (edit - no I don' t, rule of 3! Less beer, more rules), two with and two without PK. It helps a lot with primaries and secondaries.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Next points:
- terrain matters bloody so much. First game there was nowhere to hide, went second and who cares about the rest of the game, half of the army dead...
- 6pack of SMG screens perfectly your deploy againts DS but it' s pretty hard to have a target to shoot at. Generaly it' s totaly different game with smg in 9th than in 8th. You move a lot. Even advance to find the right angels in dense terrain! And nobody shoot at them. Everybody cares about your front line units.
- Scrapjets are great, just die too fast.
- Engage + Scrablers works in combo together pretty well. If you have SJDs and kommandos.
- sometimes it' s a good idea NOT TO EADBUTT. If you just scratch the paint and kill nothing, it' s better to keem bommer alive to absorb a lot of fire.
- cut off the head T1 combo = bommer eadbutt + wazboom park next to the warlord and snipe. Just for enemies with not enough of screen and/or large warlord (raven wing landspeeder today...)
- not so much use for command points. Go vanguard or something like that next time.
- wartrike is meeh. Dmg output total mehh and advance and charge... hard to find a situation
Automatically Appended Next Post: - hard to find a HQ that is usefull in buggy list. Simple bigmek with kff in trukk to give him 5++ is the only one...
- giving 2x15 vp to your enemy for Bring it down and in synergy Grind them down (because you have lot of units on the table!) is pretty stupid
Billagio wrote: I was looking at the Goff list that placed recently (with the skarboyz, Ghaz and MAKFF Mek)....wondering how he would hold objectives in his deployment zone? Everything in the list seems pretty aggro and wanting to get to the enemies deployment zone/lines. Theres no grots or mek gunz or anything to sit back.
Thinking of maybe combining the MANz into 1 squad (to jump) and dropping the 2x trukks in favor of Mek gunz or grots to hold objectives in my deployment?
He has kommandos, dont forget that. If the opponent has screened enough that he can't fit any in his backlines, you can always just choose to deploy them normally on backfield objectives.
Yeah, I figured he would do his best to get those into the other side of the board.
Rule of 3 is a mandatory rule now. It's no longer organized play only. If you are using points, you are not allowed to bring more than 3 of one datasheets unless it's troops or a dedicated transport.
this will not contain the correct names!
Cawl
2 techpriest dudes
2 units of 10 skitari with short-ranged 3-shot guns that do 2 damage on 6's
2 units of 10 dudes, 3 with sniper rifles on big bases per squad
2 units of 10 dudes with 30" rapidfire guns
3 units of 3 servitors on tracks, 2 with grav cannons? (5 shots) and 1 with plasmacannons.
The game went well and was extremely fun, with my Orks taking an early lead and the admech reclaiming ground in the late game. In the end, I lost due to my own foolih mistake - I used da jump to get my shootaboys into a better position on the last turn, and left my weirdboy in the open - slay the warlord was just given away. Shootaboys couldn't even have affected the VP, I should have stayed put and gotten a tie out of it!
Apparently there's a 1CP ademech ability to take a unit of servitors off the battlefield and return it at full strength (increases CP depending on the amount of servitors), and apparently thy can do this every turn!!!
From the orky side of things:
Kommandos needed my original plan of running evil suns, they all failed their charges. by one.
Shokkjump dragstas continue to perform well, though die in a stiff breeze.
Flashgits were in a ruin instead of a trukk, and they died horribly. I will not be bringing them unprotected again!
Weirdboy seemed a bit meh, whilst I jumped a unit of shootas into the opponents deployment zone turn 1 and blew away another unit as I went, he then spent the rest of the game being very meh.
I need more cheap units I can afford to sit around doing nothing for a turn! I had 30 shootas sat for 3 turns repairing a teleport homer in the opponents deployment zone, and no-one attacked them and they attacked nothing. seemed a fairly large waste, a small unit of something could have served this purpose.
Game ultimately ended as 62-68 to admech, could have been a draw - my dumb choice!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was building a list just now based around 9 deff dreads with 4 KMB each (which sounds like a great deal of possibly self explody fun) and was trying to work out a good HQ for the army, and came across a potentially brilliant combo.
(Bad Moons)
Mega-armoured mek, da best armour teef can buy (warlord trait), kleverest boss, super cybork body.
Gives you a T4 6 wound 2+ 4++ 5+++, with a grot oiler to tank the first shot, 4 S10 powerklaw attacks, and a kustom-mega-blasta for potshots. All wrapped up for 110 points and 1CP.
My main draw is a viable option for converting those old Ghazzie / Megaboss models which we all have sitting on the shelves somewhere. It'll only take a KMB...
Has anyone tried it? I don't think of T4 as such a downside - most guns seem to be S6+ nowadays if they do multiple damage, though S8&9 will hit harder than it would a warboss, with a 2+/4++/5+++, he should tank a fair few shots!
Jidmah wrote: Rule of 3 is a mandatory rule now. It's no longer organized play only. If you are using points, you are not allowed to bring more than 3 of one datasheets unless it's troops or a dedicated transport.
what exactly does that mean? I mean does that mean i can only bring 3 Killa kans as they can work individually? Or can i only bring 3 Mek Guns?
Jidmah wrote: Rule of 3 is a mandatory rule now. It's no longer organized play only. If you are using points, you are not allowed to bring more than 3 of one datasheets unless it's troops or a dedicated transport.
what exactly does that mean? I mean does that mean i can only bring 3 Killa kans as they can work individually? Or can i only bring 3 Mek Guns?
You can only bring three copies of the same Datasheet.
So you can take three squads of Killa Kans, but not four.
tulun wrote: Stormboyz can achieve turn 1 charges -- you can auto advance them 6". Can be advantageous.
Honestly, I think Stormboyz are great action bots that you can possibly field on the board, while you have to deep strike or transport Kommandos. If they are perfectly deep strike screening you out, Stormboyz can possibly get in position to do scramblers. You could also have them raise a banner turn 1 on a more middle objective as they have a 12" move.
They can even ride in transports, albeit taking two slots -- but you could do something like this.
Turn 1: unit of stormboyz scramblers in your zone, while a trukk advances to the midboard. Turn 2: Stormboyz move or advance to the trukk, get inside, the trukk moves up so they can get into position for an opportunistic charge or to do another action.
They cost a bit more than Kommandos but I think they have play. It just largely depends on your board and how well your opponents screen out deep strikers if it's worth paying a bit more. They just aren't as easy to use as Kommando.
100 (although I think people are overrating Kommandos but valid "they are cheap")% People are down on things in the strangest ways.
Jidmah wrote: Rule of 3 is a mandatory rule now. It's no longer organized play only. If you are using points, you are not allowed to bring more than 3 of one datasheets unless it's troops or a dedicated transport.
what exactly does that mean? I mean does that mean i can only bring 3 Killa kans as they can work individually? Or can i only bring 3 Mek Guns?
Since killa kans can be squaded up, you can take 3 squads of them. For things that are only 1 per data sheet (like BWs) you can only bring 3 of them total (unless you take bonebreakers and such since those are technically "BWs" but are seperate data sheets)
tulun wrote: Stormboyz can achieve turn 1 charges -- you can auto advance them 6". Can be advantageous.
Honestly, I think Stormboyz are great action bots that you can possibly field on the board, while you have to deep strike or transport Kommandos. If they are perfectly deep strike screening you out, Stormboyz can possibly get in position to do scramblers. You could also have them raise a banner turn 1 on a more middle objective as they have a 12" move.
They can even ride in transports, albeit taking two slots -- but you could do something like this.
Turn 1: unit of stormboyz scramblers in your zone, while a trukk advances to the midboard. Turn 2: Stormboyz move or advance to the trukk, get inside, the trukk moves up so they can get into position for an opportunistic charge or to do another action.
They cost a bit more than Kommandos but I think they have play. It just largely depends on your board and how well your opponents screen out deep strikers if it's worth paying a bit more. They just aren't as easy to use as Kommando.
100 (although I think people are overrating Kommandos but valid "they are cheap"% People are down on things in the strangest ways.
I actually don't think this is fully fair. On paper, Stormboyz seem really bad to be honest.
1) They got a 33% point increase (9 -> 12). Woof.
2) They occupy a very strong slot for Orks (Fast attack vs Buggies)
3) The initial reaction was to a mindset of killy > board control. And Stormboyz hit as hard as boys, which is to say not hard at all.
I think with 9th edition being a few months in, we've realized that action bots (Units that are cheap and can do actions easily) are actually quite powerful. That's why kommandos are so interesting -- for as cheap as 45 points, you can have a unit that gives you linebreaker, deploy scramblers, can charge and contest with Obsec a poorly defended objective... for 10 more points, they even have some killing power.
I just think it's early to dismiss Stormboyz as bad simply because a unit that can move 12" and perform an action is really powerful in 9th. That's why all jump infantry got such massive hikes.
On my initial test of them last Saturday, I think I will absolutely try them again. I think they will largely shine once the Warboss on bike returns, though... missing a fast unit that can provide infantry that advance and charge is too key for Ork strategies.
The biggest issue they have to be honest is that FA is just sooooooo contested. Between buggies and single unit Deff koptas, it's a really easy slot to fill that provides a ton of value.
I'll be trying out a list of green tide backed by Stormboyz/kommandos. No Meganobz, the only models with good armor/multi-wounds will be characters. The point being I want my opponent to be wasting lascannon/melta/plasma into boyz mobz.
Da Jumping a mob onto a far flung position and then backing it up turn 1 with some Stormboyz means in all likelihood I hold the objective turn 1, turn 2 the horde arrives and i hold the objective through sheer numbers, hopefully that continues into turn 3, by which point the game is mostly decided.
So, yesterday my DG got caught off guard by an evil suns Gorkanaut with orkymatic pistons charging me turn one with the help of a wartrike and ramming speed.
I literally had no clue how to respond to that and when it finally went down it had killed a unit of 3 MBH, a DP and a PBC.
Has anyone of you tried that yet? I know I'm going to in my next ork game
Tomsug wrote: Tulun: it' s about the core of your list. If you have a green tide with meganobz, your elite is full, fast attack empty. Take stormboyz.
A battallion allows 6 elite slots though. Even going with 2 squads of meganobz and a dok there's still room for 3 squads of kommandos. It's really unlikely to have unavailable slots for kommandos, even multiple squads of them, in any possible kind of list.
Jidmah wrote: So, yesterday my DG got caught off guard by an evil suns Gorkanaut with orkymatic pistons charging me turn one with the help of a wartrike and ramming speed.
I literally had no clue how to respond to that and when it finally went down it had killed a unit of 3 MBH, a DP and a PBC.
Has anyone of you tried that yet? I know I'm going to in my next ork game
I've done it with dreads a few times, but yeah a naught would work pretty well. Maybe throw warpath on it for some extra attacks? Even visions if you feel extra Killy.
Jidmah wrote: So, yesterday my DG got caught off guard by an evil suns Gorkanaut with orkymatic pistons charging me turn one with the help of a wartrike and ramming speed.
I literally had no clue how to respond to that and when it finally went down it had killed a unit of 3 MBH, a DP and a PBC.
Has anyone of you tried that yet? I know I'm going to in my next ork game
Not Gorkanaut, but Blood Axe Bonebreaka equipping Red Rolla packed with a Big Mek KFF and Boyz/Manz alongside the Trike. The point is to force them to fight on their side of the board, thus losing time and ability to capture the middle. As you say it throws most opponents.
It's also a way to tick off Linebreakers as you´ll have alot of stuff mucking about in their deploy. If you keep sneaking in Kommandos or jumping in Stormboyz (thx tulun) it´s a neat stream of VP. I´ve noticed that whilst Engage is easier to trigger I prefer 3 rounds of LB and thus this strategy developed.
Jidmah wrote: I doubt that dreads could do it as reliably because they move 2" less than the naut and have a lot less hitting power.
12" move, d6+1" advance with re-roll, 3d6+1" charge with re-rolls. That's 30" on average.
A 28 on average still sounds fairly reliable. And you have 3 of them, so if you fluff your rolls you're still likley to have at least 2 in right? It's less all or nothing.
You can only do ramming speed on one dread though and there is the spacing issue.
In general a dread is a lot less scary than a gorkanaut. His 18 attacks really did a number on my blight haulers. A dread would probably have bounced and gotten killed by the multi-meltas in my turn.
Bear in mind that you might, might just get really lucky with the gork + ramming speed and kill the opponent with mortal wounds from ramming speed, thus allowing you to pop the stratagem to charge again and get even further into their lines!
I'll certainly be giving the combo of 'orkanaught and wartrike a go. Plus you can throw 3 meganobs or 5 nobs and a warboss into the 'naught, and hop them out on turn 2 to wreak even more havoc!
tulun wrote: Y'all are lucky. My regular sparring opponent is an eldar player, so basically I think Gorks / Morks are basically ass useless.
Doom + Guide + Jinx just makes big targets a joke.
Definitely easier to focus fire than dealing with a bunch of TP dreds or buggies. I haven't used my Morkanaut since we started the new edition.
I think the Mork is fine, but man it's just brutal against CWE.
My battlewagon is 155 points and dies about as quickly as a 340 point Morkanaut. And it's not even that strenuous when it's Doomed, Jinxed, and something horrible has been guided haha. So I might as well just take 2 wagons instead.
It dies just as quick because for whatever reason the "anti tank guns" are really easy to outnumber their intended targets with.
And despite what GW thinks, +1 save and +2 wounds doesnt mean squat.
Unfortunately its an issue i dont see them fixing without doing another 8th-style shakeup to the statlines. Big stuff doesnt feel any more powerful than the medium stuff that is also far more numerous.
Had a fantastic game yesterday vs. Imperial Fists.
We played the mission with 5 objectives, three of them midfield with two disappearing turn 4 + 5 and a secondary that gives you points for holding those 3.
18" between us with the 3 middle objectives 9" from the deployment zones.
I played 2 detachments:
Cheeky Zoggers:
SSAG (Bigkilla Boss), Warphead (da jump, warpath, Super Cybork Body)
15 + 4 x 10 Gretchin
Evil Sunz:
Warboss (big choppa)
KFF Mek
Dok
4 x 30 Boys (dual saw)
10 boys (dual saw)
2 x 5 kommandos
2 Kopta
His list:
Lysander, Chapter Master Captain, Techmarine
2 x Intercessors
1 x Infiltrators
Leviathan + 2 Contemptors + Venerable Dreadnought
2 x Thunderfire Cannons
5 Terminators
I had 1 boymob in tellyporta, the rest was deployed because i wanted to have my kommandos at the obcectives turn 1.
I went for Domination, Raise the banners & the mission secondary, he had thin their ranks, Kill the Warlord & raise)
30 + 10 Boys were hiding for jump turn 1, 2 boymobs and Kommandos at the edge of my deployment zones with all characters behind them.
The gretchin filled the empty scace and gave me character screening.
He got the first turn, marched up to the objectives and killed 29 boys in 1 mob and 15 gretchin.
My first turn i used 5 CP to pass morale and bring back those 30 boys. Oh and he tried to Orbital bambard the 1 remaining boy for 3 CP but didn`t roll a 4+ - lucky me! But i had also completely forgotten about the dok here, so it was kinda fair.
40 mobbed up boys failed their charge on the left objective, 1 boymob charged the Venerable on the mid objective and my kommandos raised banners on the left and right midfield objective, supported by gretchin and the koptas to have as many bodies there as possible.
The boymob that got green tided used a gap in his back, charged his Captain + Techmarine and grabbed his deployment zone objective, while my gretchin wrapped my characters and raised banner on my deployment objective. Killed a few Marines and did some wounds on his Walkers and Characters.
His second turn he went all in on the 40 boys, killed over 30 of them and charged them with all he got. His Termis & Lysander deepstriked on my right flank and both charged my gretchin. After bad hits, good 6++ and a roll of 1 at morale phase 1 heroic Grot stood there, still defending my homebase banner. Hrhrhr.
His infantry had taken both outer objectives while my 2 other boy mobs were still fighting his characters and bots.
My second turn i jumped the remaining boy + 2 nobs from the 40 boy squad to the right midfield objective and cleared the Intercessors. (8 Saw attacks. )
The Warphead killed 1 Termi and my gretchin blocked his movement.
My 4th boy mob tellyported on the left objective and with the help of the warboss i killed all Intercessors and Infiltrators there.
At this point all his bots were in CC and the venerable Dreadnought was killed. I was also holding all 5 objectives and scored quite a few points.
His 3rd & 4th turn he managed to kill all remaining boys but i had killed the Venerable, all infantry, 1 Contemptor, his Techmarine and the Captain.
My SSAG oneshotted Lysander and Wyrdboy + Gretchin waves had killed 3 of the Terminators and prevented them from coming close to my characters.
Dok and Warboss were fighting the Leviathan over the left (and only remaining mid-objective turn 5).
His 5th turn he had killed all of my stuff except the 2 Meks, the Wyrdboy and about 10 gretchin, he had The Leviathan, 1 Contemptor, 2 Thunderfire Cannons and 2 Terminators.
But except maxing out thin their ranks and 5 primary points he had not really scored anything so in the end i won 82:30.
Conclusion: Again the green tide proved as really strong, but still i lost over 200 models.
I had good board control and could tarpit a lot of his stuff while holding objectives, but especially his Leviathan was brutal with all his shots & flamers he could still use in CC.
The 6++ gretchin worked great, they protected my characters, hold of the Terminators and helped scoring. The new morale rules really help them - i had often just the 1 or 2 left that i needed for ObSec.
But i guess next time i will run 2 x 5 Stormboys instead of the Koptas to raise banners more easily. I had luck those objectives were just 9" away, otherwise it would have been really hard to get to them.
Oh and with his Leviathan and the two Thunderfire Cannons i felt like freakin`John Snow in battle of the bastards.
So many shots raining down on me was brutal. But we know how this story ended so all good.
Vineheart01 wrote: It dies just as quick because for whatever reason the "anti tank guns" are really easy to outnumber their intended targets with.
And despite what GW thinks, +1 save and +2 wounds doesnt mean squat.
Unfortunately its an issue i dont see them fixing without doing another 8th-style shakeup to the statlines. Big stuff doesnt feel any more powerful than the medium stuff that is also far more numerous.
Yup, its basically why Land Raiders will never be an actual thing in a competitive scene unless they overhaul it from the ground up. Thankfully the Morkanaut/Gorkanaut isn't as bad as LR but they have the same issue of not having enough wounds to actually survive reliable, consistent anti-tank salvos. I feel like Mork/Gorkanauts need to go to borderline Knight level wounds or more before they've reached a point where quality matches a quantity of vehicles.
I never understood why there isnt any "damage cap" abilities for big vehicles to show just how beefier they are. I.e. a single shot cant cause more than 3 damage or something like that. It would be a way to make the obviously bigger things actually feel tough to take down while only having slightly higher statlines than the medium stuff that pops to 2-3 D6 damage guns. Surely the largest machines would get to the point where simple level of armor isnt enough, redundancies and ablatives make it beefier not just raw thickness of the metal plates. That would be shown in damage caps, and allow the truely big guns to ignore it anyway (a REAL reason for Macro to be a thing instead of its current rule)
But, speculation that'll never happen.
Only reason the Nauts are considered good compared to the LR is because unlike the LR, the Naut is a beast in melee AND shooting, while the LR is just an overpriced gun platform that happens to have transport capacity. Its such a weird unit for a marine mentality.
None becuase i dont expect a single player to give a hoot about it.
Everyone in my group thinks its stupid beyond the narrative "fortress assault" mission
It's unlikely to make a big splash IMO competitively because giving terrain into the hands of players is going to get weird, real fast. Not to mention practically, it's already a haul to bring most competitive tourney armies, now you have to bring your own terrain as well? I'm not sure about you, but most terrain isn't exactly transport ready, so I feel people are going to leave it to TO's and local LGS to do their own tables than have 10,000 crate deployments from players themselves.
Theres a reason people rarely, if ever, put as much effort into painting terrain as they do minis.
Terrain bumps things, smacks walls, falls on the ground, gets crunched and in general abused. If youre expected to bring it as part of your list people are going to want to paint it to match the army and oh the headaches of making sure it doesnt get dinged up.
Theres a reason people rarely, if ever, put as much effort into painting terrain as they do minis.
Terrain bumps things, smacks walls, falls on the ground, gets crunched and in general abused. If youre expected to bring it as part of your list people are going to want to paint it to match the army and oh the headaches of making sure it doesnt get dinged up.
Exactly, I painted my own terrain up mainly because our gaming group almost exclusively plays at my place and I wanted the terrain to reflect they were effectively in "Ork territory" so I started sprucing the table up. If I had to actually bring terrain constantly from place to place I'd leave everything with a base colour and a wash and that's it.
Yeah, making your own terrain is a blast. Do have to make some ork themed stuff honestly. All I got is 2 batches of the speed freaks terrain and a bastion that's been orkified. Hmm, sadly I'm fairly certain any freebootaz in a bastion cannot use the trait, since the building itself doesn't get the modifier.
Billagio wrote: Anyone got good conversion ideas for deffrollas? Dont think I want to spend $45 on 3 of them
Loo rolls with extra spikey bits added - I suspect that the rolls from kitchen foil would be good as they are narrower and sturdier.
anything dangerous-looking added to the front of the vehicle, really! I imagine if you covered the front ram in various blades and such, then said it was a deffrolla, most people would be fine with it!
Billagio wrote: Anyone got good conversion ideas for deffrollas? Dont think I want to spend $45 on 3 of them
Loo rolls with extra spikey bits added - I suspect that the rolls from kitchen foil would be good as they are narrower and sturdier.
anything dangerous-looking added to the front of the vehicle, really! I imagine if you covered the front ram in various blades and such, then said it was a deffrolla, most people would be fine with it!
True! How would you mount it? I wouldnt want to stick it on permenantly
Billagio wrote: Anyone got good conversion ideas for deffrollas? Dont think I want to spend $45 on 3 of them
Have you ever played a game by the name of Terratech? If you wanted ideas for dangerous things to put on the front of your vehicle that's a great place to start.
Billagio wrote: Anyone got good conversion ideas for deffrollas? Dont think I want to spend $45 on 3 of them
there are several good files out there for 3d printing. my first ones were pieces of copper pip with sprue bits glued to it then i used thinner copper pipe wrapped around and into the door of the battlewagons.
tulun wrote: My battlewagon is 155 points and dies about as quickly as a 340 point Morkanaut. And it's not even that strenuous when it's Doomed, Jinxed, and something horrible has been guided haha. So I might as well just take 2 wagons instead.
This is an important point imo. Target saturation is a must for these strategies to work. Trike + Big Threat isn´t enough. We need to divide the opponents attention and even screen off reinforcements if possible. Like adding a Trukk of Boyz to bodyblock the area where the Trike and BW engages.
So my first game in 9th started very well, but ended with a loss.
I got an early lead of 45 VP in the first two turns, but ended up losing. At the end of turn 5 I had 56 points while my opponent had 86.
The reason why was basically that I survived in my vehicles to begin with and got on the objectives early, but as soon as they were gone, the boyz and tankbustas did not have any staying power.
Spoiler:
My 1000pts list consisted of:
Killa Warboss w.biggest boss and 11 choppa boyz + PK Nob in Battlewagon.
10 Tankbustas + 2 squigs in trukk
11 shoota boyz + PK nob in trukk.
Choppa boyz + PK nob in Gunwagon w. da boomer
He had something along the lines of:
Pedro Kantor, Executioner, Apothecary, Chaplain
5+6 assault intercessors,
3+3 primaris bikers
5 primaris shooty veterans
3 primaris eradicators.
The next game I am going to play will be against Necrons, and probably be something like 1500pts, but the questions is, how should I avoid being killed off the objectives (and the board) after a couple of turns?
I really want mech orks to work, as I find the vehicles really cool.
I've done something which I seldom do when making lists - thought about what worked before normally I just pick a theme I want to use and make it seemright in my head. This time, I'm making the list tactically!
The list:
Spoiler:
Evil Suns Battalion
Deffkilla Wartrike, Gorks Roar, Super Cybork, Speed Freek
Weirdboy, Da Jump
So the plan is to use the effect I had in a previous game with evil suns to use the ultra-speedy bikes to hold the opponent back for a turn, allowing my boys to capitalize on the objectivesand establish themselves on the board without the enemy making it very far out of their deployment zone. The bikes will be moving, advancing and charging, for a healthy 16+D6" move, or 18+D6" move on the squighide bikes. Their goal is to act as a barrier to keep the enemy back, rather than to cause lots of damage - though 42 S5 shots per unit won't be overly shabby, and might hose down one unit of infantry before I charge. If they survive, then the wartrike's warlord trait gives them the ability to fall-back and then charge, allowing them to reposition into a single unit if they are all weakened. The boys may also be able to join in on turn 2, depending on the distances involved.
Bubblechukka was because I had a few points spare and enjoyed using it - I know smashas are statistically better, but the bubblechukka was a fun gun of randoms which lightened my shooting phase, until it rolled S5 and AP-6 on 6 shots, then it died. so I thought it much more fun to bring a bubblechucka than adding a killsaw to a boss nob - which may have been a better option.
Specifically against necrons lots of smaller vehicles work better than few big ones. DDA is good vehicle buster yes. But it can only target one vehicle at a time and is rather swingy(5.5 dmg or so vs T8 W12 3+ target, 11% chance of one shotting though new overlord helps it somewhat). If you bring in multiple small guns he finds himself overkilling stuff.
Now though necrons have some options for punching vehicles to death in melee though. Watch out any skorpek destroyers or their lord who can make short work of vehicle in melee. Though whether he has them is another thing.
3 dreadnoughts>gorkanaut in terms of survivability vs necrons and not just due to wound count. DDA can whiff completely and do nothing or blow apart gorkanaut at once. Won't kill 2 deff dreads at once though...
some bloke wrote: So the plan is to use the effect I had in a previous game with evil suns to use the ultra-speedy bikes to hold the opponent back for a turn, allowing my boys to capitalize on the objectives and establish themselves on the board without the enemy making it very far out of their deployment zone. The bikes will be moving, advancing and charging, for a healthy 16+D6" move, or 18+D6" move on the squighide bikes. Their goal is to act as a barrier to keep the enemy back, rather than to cause lots of damage - though 42 S5 shots per unit won't be overly shabby, and might hose down one unit of infantry before I charge. If they survive, then the wartrike's warlord trait gives them the ability to fall-back and then charge, allowing them to reposition into a single unit if they are all weakened. The boys may also be able to join in on turn 2, depending on the distances involved.
/.../
what do you guys think?
Body blocking and being a nuisance seems like a legit strategy in an objectives based game It´s not a matter of how, but if. The question is staying power vs points gained as durability of the rest of the army isn´t that impressive. Maybe something to bolster the foot ladz?
Sidenote: that Trike can use the Snagga Grapple (1 CP for 1D3 MW) Stratagem if he falls back as planned. Might be worth remembering.
Billagio wrote: Anyone got good conversion ideas for deffrollas? Dont think I want to spend $45 on 3 of them
I'm beyond cheap and hate the idea of upgrade sprues but if you've never bought the BW one... I'd consider at least getting 1. I actually loved mine. It's a great detailed sprue with a lot of goodies for the price. I tried the thingiverse models and alternatives and they were meh in comparison. I wish other upgrade sprues we're at the BW level.
I bought 4 back in 5th edition when you could get it with a BW for the same price as the BW is without it today, and the single sprue was almost half today's sprue.
The killkannon, the rolla and the grot rigger are all great bits, but you need the killkannon before you build the turret.
i've ALWAYS thought it should work when the enemy falls back.
It also shouldnt be a damn stratagem. I hate it when GW gives obvious base-line rules a unit should have as a stratagem instead. If its something super powerful like suddenly full rerolls, sure, but a generic ability to cause a mortal or two on a very specific scenario? dafuq.
Jidmah wrote: In over 50 games with the wartrike, I never had the chance to fall back from anything even once
Snagga Grapple should work when the enemy falls back, not when you do.
I'm contemplating whether I can marry "da jump" and the exceedingly fast warbikes/trike to make it impossible to leave combat without spending CP - jump the boys behind, move the bikes up front, and then close the sandwich - turn 1 and you can have them in a hold. Then I'd be available to fall back & charge with all of them (assuming the boys stay within 6" of the wartrike), allowing snagga-grapple to go off, and then the bikes & such can go charge something else.
If needed the boys can just back off, let other stuff shoot, then charge back in to finish them off.
My advice for the wartrike would be just shooting things and not charging anything unless you can guarantee both LoS! protection and that it can't be killed by whatever it is charging.
Using 1CP to deal mortal wounds to a unit that you have already pummeled with boyz, warbikers and a wartrike for two rounds of combat also doesn't seem like something worthwhile.
Jidmah wrote: My advice for the wartrike would be just shooting things and not charging anything unless you can guarantee both LoS! protection and that it can't be killed by whatever it is charging.
Using 1CP to deal mortal wounds to a unit that you have already pummeled with boyz, warbikers and a wartrike for two rounds of combat also doesn't seem like something worthwhile.
I suppose it's a case of being somewhat situational. If my opponent ends up with 1-2 wounds left in the combat, falling back and killing a unit whilst you're at it is quite a good option - stops it becoming a PITA later on. It's not like I'm actually paying points for access to that stratagem - and my main tactic of sandwiching is to either get the opponent to blow CP escaping, or not getting shot for a turn. Assuming I don't kill the unit I'm sandwiching...
I think I'm gonna try this next time I play. I recently converted some old skorchas I had from 3rd edition to be Scrapjets.
I think it's a bit mean so I'm going to warn my buddy to bring an A tier list.
I dropped 1 megatrakk and some upgrades on the gunwagon to get 2 Stormboy squads.
Spoiler:
Deathskulls Outrider
HQ:
Warboss - Da Biggest boss, Might is Right, Da Killa Klaw, Kustom Shoota
Wartrike - Fixer uppers
Elites: 2x Kommando, Nob w/ Klaw
Fast Attack:
3 Kustom Boosta Blasta, Sizzly Rivets (trying this out)
3 Mega Trakks, Korkscrew
1 Mega Trakk
3 Dragsters, Kustom Job
2x Stormboyz, Nob w/ Big Choppa
Heavy:
Gunwagon, Da Boomer
Flyers:
Burna Bomber
Wazbom, KFF + Plasma Cannons
I honestly wonder if buggies are kind of bad at secondaries, but taking 4 MSU squads of Kommandos / Stormboyz might shore up my secondary potential plus give me some Obsec.
Vineheart01 wrote: It dies just as quick because for whatever reason the "anti tank guns" are really easy to outnumber their intended targets with.
And despite what GW thinks, +1 save and +2 wounds doesnt mean squat.
Unfortunately its an issue i dont see them fixing without doing another 8th-style shakeup to the statlines. Big stuff doesnt feel any more powerful than the medium stuff that is also far more numerous.
Yup, its basically why Land Raiders will never be an actual thing in a competitive scene unless they overhaul it from the ground up. Thankfully the Morkanaut/Gorkanaut isn't as bad as LR but they have the same issue of not having enough wounds to actually survive reliable, consistent anti-tank salvos. I feel like Mork/Gorkanauts need to go to borderline Knight level wounds or more before they've reached a point where quality matches a quantity of vehicles.
This is partly why I worry about vehicle lists this edition... when imperials (and then eventually everyone) gets increases across the board for lost weapons to do more damage or get more shots... this is going to murder vehicles... whereas a list like green tide won’t care much about increased damage being added... I’m worried we may swing back to 7th edition where vehicles evaporated thus forcing 8th edition to massively increase vehicles wounds...
tneva82 wrote: Specifically against necrons lots of smaller vehicles work better than few big ones. DDA is good vehicle buster yes. But it can only target one vehicle at a time and is rather swingy(5.5 dmg or so vs T8 W12 3+ target, 11% chance of one shotting though new overlord helps it somewhat). If you bring in multiple small guns he finds himself overkilling stuff.
Now though necrons have some options for punching vehicles to death in melee though. Watch out any skorpek destroyers or their lord who can make short work of vehicle in melee. Though whether he has them is another thing.
3 dreadnoughts>gorkanaut in terms of survivability vs necrons and not just due to wound count. DDA can whiff completely and do nothing or blow apart gorkanaut at once. Won't kill 2 deff dreads at once though...
So a list that presents a lot of trukks, BW's, deff dreads, flyers zipping all over the board could throw him off? Unfortunately I don't have any of the new buggies, otherwise I would field them.
The idea of 9 dreads stomping/teleporting across the field does sound like a blast right? Would have decent target saturation, be relatively tough. Killyness would be okay as well. May struggle against hordes though I suppose. Unless we get the flamer range buff and you take a deeptriking unit with 4 skorchas each.
Jidmah wrote: Why would your opponents stay in combat instead of falling back and just killing it?
This is about target saturations, flanking and consolidating. In a nutshell I tend to send 2-3 units down a flank with the Trike closest to the short edge. Both charge a light to mid level melee unit unit each on the flank to lock them down. The Trike consolidates to get out of as much los as possible while the other unit (like a Trukk of boyz or some warbikes) screen it. The point of it all is just to force the opponent into decisions. Should they back out of the melees and lose those units actions? If then they´ll need at least a 3rd unit to shoot the Trike which is the most awkward target to reach. In the meanwhile the rest of the Orks also present a number of targets. So the opponent often does a quick calculation that the Trike on the far end doesn´t matter as much as the hornets nest of Warbikes or the 2x30 boyz mobs escorted by a KFF and the Warboss coming up behind.
As I prefer Blood Axes for the tactical options, despite Deathskulls being more killy, the Trike then gets a chance for a Snagga. Sure, this doesn't translate into anything every game, but in 9th it has started to make a difference due to the new objective game imo.
I'll just repeat, in over 50 games this has never ever happened. The wartrike is a high priority target that is easily killed, people don't want it to be shooting meltas at vehicles or skorcha/shotguns at squishy infantry. Some just kill it to take away the option to charge a vehicle from one flank to another. When they have the option to kill it, they will and no amount of warbikes, boyz or trukks in their face will take priority over that.
Target saturation only applies if you have targets of similar value - the only things that might get a similar priority are a warboss, scrapjets, SJD or a SSAG. And it's not like armies struggle to kill them in addition to the wartrike. Assorted bolter weapons, krak grenades, hull weapons of tanks and the odd plasma gun are usually enough to destroy it without problems, as is a single squad armed with anti-tank weapons. Keep in mind that LoS! changed, so a tank can shoot the wartrike from across the board if there is no unit within 3". Many armies also have the option to just counter-charge it with a bunch of support characters to make sure it dies.
Even if they chose to ignore it, the only reason to stay in combat with a model that has 5 S7 AP-2 d3 attacks is if you have a good chance of both surviving that and killing it in combat afterwards. In most cases falling back and doing nothing is a way better option for your opponent than to take another round of combat from it which might wipe their unit out.
If you find yourself in combat at the beginning of your movement phase either your opponent has made a grave mistake by not falling back or you have made mistake by charging something you shouldn't have and got lucky.
Also a few things you describe aren't really doable in my experience - a 3" consolidate that has to end up closer to your opponent is not going to get the huge wartrike out of LoS. If you charge a unit with a wartrike and trukkboyz or warbikers it's usually dead after two rounds of combat.
Falling back is just not something orks normally do. You kill your opponent, your opponent kills you, or they run away. The only reason I can imagine why this comes up at your tables frequently is because the killing power in your meta is extremely low. Most of my opponents have no troubles going through a trukk and 12 boyz to kill the wartrike if they are close enough, and my meta is fairly tame compare to tournament circuits.
Jidmah, do you find wartrike usefull? Does it even worth to take it in buggy / mech list? I use it but think about to scrap it after almost every game....
cody.d. wrote: The idea of 9 dreads stomping/teleporting across the field does sound like a blast right? Would have decent target saturation, be relatively tough. Killyness would be okay as well. May struggle against hordes though I suppose. Unless we get the flamer range buff and you take a deeptriking unit with 4 skorchas each.
The vehicle changes in 9th have made dreads a bit better but they are still a little lackluster. They might do better if you had the choice to either keep them as a squad of three or deploy them and have them act as single units. Keeping them as a squad of 3 would help with weight of attacks on a target, stop enemies from interrupting during the fight phase, and you would only need to make one charge to have them all in combat instead of three. Downsides would be the footprint of the unit making maneuvering difficult and it might make them more efficient to shoot at with AT since there would be dmg overspill compared to shooting at each one individually.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah, do you find wartrike usefull? Does it even worth to take it in buggy / mech list? I use it but think about to scrap it after almost every game....
Personally I find the Wartrike well within its points for the advance and charge of vehicles alone. It will nearly guarantee t1 charges of any army regardless of the map layout and the enemies. Any models it kills is just a bonus.
To the point above though, the Wartrike never lives long. It'll hit something and then die at max 2 turns unless I charged at guard.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah, do you find wartrike usefull? Does it even worth to take it in buggy / mech list? I use it but think about to scrap it after almost every game....
I do, but only if you use it as a shooting unit with a support aura. Throw it in melee and you will lose it.
I usually have it hanging around other buggies, a battlewagon or naut to prevent my opponents from picking it out. The melta works really well with deathskulls re-rolls while boomstikks and the skorcha mode can make screens and chaff objective holders disappear. Now that slay the warlord has gotten pretty rare, I might even try putting the deff skulls trait on it again.
Jidmah wrote: Target saturation only applies if you have targets of similar value - the only things that might get a similar priority are a warboss, scrapjets, SJD or a SSAG.
I wouldn't have quite this short list, but otherwise great summary of the Ork army game. Agree! I think our experiences mostly diverge due to terrain/strategy/meta. I get the feeling of a Napoleonic environment from your telling whilst my club is quite into screening and hugging terrain.
E.g. recently I abandonded flank vs Custodes who´s Custodian and Allarus went left to kill my Dread and some Boyz. I thought 'Zog it'' and just went right with the rest. It forced his foot to either take the long route through difficult terrain, around big obstacles or risk me sneaking up Kommandos on the objectives. And yes, the Trike died miserably in that game after cheering the Trukk and BW up. No Snagga there.
Billagio wrote: Anyone got good conversion ideas for deffrollas? Dont think I want to spend $45 on 3 of them
Loo rolls with extra spikey bits added - I suspect that the rolls from kitchen foil would be good as they are narrower and sturdier.
anything dangerous-looking added to the front of the vehicle, really! I imagine if you covered the front ram in various blades and such, then said it was a deffrolla, most people would be fine with it!
True! How would you mount it? I wouldnt want to stick it on permenantly
I recommend using any sprues you have laying around. and then adding a bit on the end of both to attach to the roller and to make it a snap fit onto the little circle spot on the battle wagon. you can spruce it up yourself with some jagged bits and on the sprues you can always add some extra gubbinz to make them stand out a bit.
As far as the list with 4 mobz of shoota boyz and a few units of warbikes. In a friendly game that would be fine, in a competitive game or event it will get steam rolled. Even just factoring in basic units like Intercessors, they can destroy those bikes and troops relatively quickly, if you add in things like aggressors and eradicators its GG possibly as early as turn 2.
tulun wrote: I would be cautious about recommending blood axes and falling back with their trait as a legitimate Ork strategy.
For all intents and purposes, Blood Axes don't have a clan trait, because neither is useful in 99% of cases.
People don't charge Orks expecting the stuff they charge to not die -- and vice versa.
Ironically, this is done better by Evil Suns with their warlord trait.
Yeah, BA trait basically only kicks when something has gone horribly wrong for your opponent in some way, usually with them fluffing their dice rolls or being forced not to fall back for whatever reason. Not exactly something you plan your army around. Arguably even less relevant now that vehicles can shoot into combat, so outside of a Da Boomer Battlewagon, most stuff in CC wants to stay in there.
I really hope blood axes get something useful in this edition's codex, I'd like to go back to my original clan.
Especially the odd stratagem screams rushed last minute changes based on the playtester's feedback who claimed that orks were impossible to beat during testing.
Jidmah wrote: I really hope blood axes get something useful in this edition's codex, I'd like to go back to my original clan.
Especially the odd stratagem screams rushed last minute changes based on the playtester's feedback who claimed that orks were impossible to beat during testing.
I mean compare the White Scars outflank to the Blood Axe outflank.
Woof. 1 CP for ANY unit, and Blood Axes is so limited to be practically useless compared to tellyporta.
In light of the new terrain rules it would be interesting to see bloodaxes get special interactions with those rules.
Like their vehicles gaining Breachable bonuses or the distance from terrain to be considered "covered" by it increased to 6" instead of 3"
Basically, make them really annoying to face because they basically turn the terrain against you and/or flatout ignore some pretty rude terrain setups.
Jidmah wrote: I really hope blood axes get something useful in this edition's codex, I'd like to go back to my original clan.
Especially the odd stratagem screams rushed last minute changes based on the playtester's feedback who claimed that orks were impossible to beat during testing.
Yeah BA, were pretty hosed outside of their relic. What do you think would be a good think would be a better trait within the context of 9th? I feel like the fall back + charge /or shoot mechanic is redundant and even cover doesn't really mean much given how low our armour values are for our units (not to mention the high AP of weapons from most armies)
I feel Blood Axes trait should be rewritten to allow units with the trait to attack units they didn't declare as targets for a charge when they pile in/consolidate, to show their ability to handle complex military movements. More importantly, to represent their camouflage, Blood Axe units halve the range of weapons targetting them when a unit is wholly within terrain. This last one I'm not sure about, since it doesn't do much for vehicles, but I don't know what to add besides a Raven Guard esque type trait, but I feel like it's boring and largely useless for Orks when -1 to hit doesn't help as much and cover doesn't do anything except for Meganobz.
Change the Dead Sneaky strat to a pre-game scout move similar to what Alpha Legion has that scales from 1CP to 2CP based on PL of the chosen unit. Buff the WL trait so we recover CP's on a 5+ now that we can only ever get 1 back a turn anyways.
I don't know how much I like truck boyz. They just don't have enough hitting power or staying power.
I know boyz don't hit as hard as they used to, but so far my boyz are still doing decent work. I used a lot of truck boyz tonight, and they hit about how I expected, maybe a touch under, but they just crumpled the round after they charged.
Jidmah wrote: I really hope blood axes get something useful in this edition's codex, I'd like to go back to my original clan. Especially the odd stratagem screams rushed last minute changes based on the playtester's feedback who claimed that orks were impossible to beat during testing.
Yeah BA, were pretty hosed outside of their relic. What do you think would be a good think would be a better trait within the context of 9th? I feel like the fall back + charge /or shoot mechanic is redundant and even cover doesn't really mean much given how low our armour values are for our units (not to mention the high AP of weapons from most armies)
I feel Blood Axes trait should be rewritten to allow units with the trait to attack units they didn't declare as targets for a charge when they pile in/consolidate, to show their ability to handle complex military movements. More importantly, to represent their camouflage, Blood Axe units halve the range of weapons targetting them when a unit is wholly within terrain. This last one I'm not sure about, since it doesn't do much for vehicles, but I don't know what to add besides a Raven Guard esque type trait, but I feel like it's boring and largely useless for Orks when -1 to hit doesn't help as much and cover doesn't do anything except for Meganobz.
Change the Dead Sneaky strat to a pre-game scout move similar to what Alpha Legion has that scales from 1CP to 2CP based on PL of the chosen unit. Buff the WL trait so we recover CP's on a 5+ now that we can only ever get 1 back a turn anyways.
I agree, basically modernizing all the parts of the trait would go a long way. The cover bonus should really go to 12" like it is for every other army, since it's basically useless at 18". I don't think attacking targets you haven't charged would do a whole lot, but the general direction doesn't sound too bad. Maybe allow them to consolidate in any direction instead of towards the nearest? There are already some rules which allow this, and it would probably portrait the hit&run tactics they tried to give them way better. Dead Sneaky could either be a scout move, or allow us to deploy 1/3 units with max PL 8 anywhere on the board, similar to nurglings. A cap on this would be important to not break the game in half As for the warlord traits - unless other armies get theirs buffed, I don't see a need to change it.
With the trait going to 12" and consolidate in any direction and infiltration stratagem blood axes would already be a interesting utility vs power choice, on a similar level as evil suns.
All good ideas. Stuff that feels relevant is indeed lacking for BA. The Kultur is indeed not doing much most of the time, but I like to tinker with it. The Bonebreaka Red Rolla T1 Charge alongside a Trike and a Brutal but Kunnin' Warboss is about as much use I can get.
Tourneywise I´d bring Deathskullz like everyone else. BAs is just my fav clan since Rogue Trader and Human Advisors days. Would love some of that stuff to return.
I actually switched to deathskulls in 8th because bloodaxes were so terribad and they were the only clan which worked for every unit. I kind of stuck with them since then outside of experiments.
My army is painted as all sorts of clans, but the fluff behind them is a Bloodaxe Warboss slowly absorbing tribes and clans into his Waaagh!, utilizing each one at what they are best similar to Thrakka. So tripple clans wasn't an option because it would have confused my opponents.
Yeah i was initially Badmoonz since thats my colors but eventually switched to Deathskullz Both because i could actually bring dedicated melee and not feel stupid and also ITS SO MUCH FASTER - dude seriously you any idea how long it takes to do reroll 1s and dakkdakkadakka for 30 shoota boyz?
IMO the basic detachment rules for any codex shouldnt feel like theyre tailored for one specific unit type. Better for that unit type sure, but they shouldnt have rules that 100% do not affect some units. If Badmoonz was flatout reroll 1s when attacking....i probably wouldnt have switched to deathskullz lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i was initially Badmoonz since thats my colors but eventually switched to Deathskullz
Both because i could actually bring dedicated melee and not feel stupid and also ITS SO MUCH FASTER - dude seriously you any idea how long it takes to do reroll 1s and dakkdakkadakka for 30 shoota boyz?
IMO the basic detachment rules for any codex shouldnt feel like theyre tailored for one specific unit type. Better for that unit type sure, but they shouldnt have rules that 100% do not affect some units. If Badmoonz was flatout reroll 1s when attacking....i probably wouldnt have switched to deathskullz lol.
Yeah, that's definitely a major flaw for a lot of subfaction traits that GW writes, where it's clearly geared only for some units than others. Bad Moonz are known for flashy gear, but not just for shooting. They're the ones most likely to have the equivalent of "master-crafted" weapons in Ork society given their wealth. They probably would be the one's who should have rerolls one's for everything.
Deathskullz just has an Iron Hands symptom where they have 3 great traits for the price of one sub-faction, whereas poor guys like Snakebites get one while BA basically get none lol.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah, do you find wartrike usefull? Does it even worth to take it in buggy / mech list? I use it but think about to scrap it after almost every game....
I've been quite successful with mine in my wagon list.
Guarantees some first turn charges, is good at killing smaller units thanks to the snagga klaw and Gorks Roar, and with the Opportunist trait it's very good for riding forward and sniping characters.
Tbh when i heard they were doing Kultures i was expecting Badmoonz to have a bonus armor, all the "bling" they put on their armor offers some sort of extra defense.
I wasnt expecting the shooty at all.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tbh when i heard they were doing Kultures i was expecting Badmoonz to have a bonus armor, all the "bling" they put on their armor offers some sort of extra defense.
I wasnt expecting the shooty at all.
That too, I mean their psychic power already does that, so having a different kind of tanky trait that wasn't a FNP like Snakebites would be good rather than just offense. Makes regular and Biker nobz much more feasible, while also giving Meganobz real tankiness. Hell, that actually might make the Ard boyz strat worth taking if it wasn't 2CP, and if it gave a 4+ save instead.
cody.d. wrote: Well it feels like the traits are gradually becoming more complex as the editions go on. So maybe we'll get better stuff next codex?
Well based on the new Necron dynasties and SM chapter traits, it does seem like they're trying to avoid one note traits. However, given that we're a xenos faction, let's just hope they address the dead end klans in the army.
Ran a variation of the Goffs skarboyz list today vs nids. Its nasty, was able to pin him back in his deployment zone very easily by getting first turn. First time using ghaz too, hes a beast
4 flyiers in such combination are good. My guess as I play the flyiers:
Make 2 groups, one wazboom and one bommer each. Put them on the wings so, you can make a minimum move 45deg towards side edge for flexibility of move and so, that kff covers your army and groups fly almost stright to enemy deploy and next turn one turn left, second turn right. Nowhere to hide, wazbooms shoot and gives 5++ to both planes, bommer bomb / eadButt. 2 groups is hard outmaneuver, one of them can bomb / eadbutt you any time. Shoot down such amount of flyiers tooks at least 2 turns to shoot down so the rest of your army is safe.
I dont see the point in blitza bommer, burna could be better, but who knows what is behind....
Heafstaag wrote: I don't know how much I like truck boyz. They just don't have enough hitting power or staying power.
I know boyz don't hit as hard as they used to, but so far my boyz are still doing decent work. I used a lot of truck boyz tonight, and they hit about how I expected, maybe a touch under, but they just crumpled the round after they charged.
At this point its really a Rock paper scissors match up on whether or not even mobz of 30 boyz are capable. 30 boyz only inflict 13 wounds vs T4 3+ right now, and good luck getting all 30 in combat. Now add in the recent prevalence of T5 3+ and suddenly those 30 boyz are doing 8-9 wounds. So against units like Heavy Intercessors you are only killing 2 to 3 models.
In return that SM player can wipe out a full sized mob of boyz using aggressors each turn. So why take boyz at all?
On the flipside of that, if you are lucky enough to square up against an IG opponent. That 30 mob is going to mulch his infantry if you can get into CC. And really, I want to get his tanks tied up as quickly as possible to minimize dmg.
Jidmah wrote: I actually switched to deathskulls in 8th because bloodaxes were so terribad and they were the only clan which worked for every unit. I kind of stuck with them since then outside of experiments.
My army is painted as all sorts of clans, but the fluff behind them is a Bloodaxe Warboss slowly absorbing tribes and clans into his Waaagh!, utilizing each one at what they are best similar to Thrakka. So tripple clans wasn't an option because it would have confused my opponents.
I had to give up on my beautiful speed freakz in 8th because of how bad Warbikes are :( 9th looks like a repeat as well but we will see, I started using my Blood axes a lot in index orkz only to receive the worst traits possible for them and had to switch again, I finished 8th playing a Free Boota army that relied on Mek Gunz and Scrapjets, it was a fun list but I really miss my Kommando horde and my Warbikers.
Warbikers are just one unit though and there are plenty of viable evil suns builds right now. I also had some really good results with warbikers in 8th.
If you lock yourself into as single play style, you are just asking to get screwed over ever time a CA or codex gets released.
I had to give up on my beautiful speed freakz in 8th because of how bad Warbikes are :( 9th looks like a repeat as well but we will see, I started using my Blood axes a lot in index orkz only to receive the worst traits possible for them and had to switch again, I finished 8th playing a Free Boota army that relied on Mek Gunz and Scrapjets, it was a fun list but I really miss my Kommando horde and my Warbikers.
Honestly, I think Nob Bikers are interesting.
You can load out 3 for 125 points -- Double Big Choppa, 1 w/ Saw. I think they could have play as a counter charger or to punish someone who doesn't put much on a flank.
I think they will be better as soon as the Warboss on Bike makes a return, though. I have a list in my head I wanna try mixing Evil Suns with some DS buggies that utilizes them heavily, but it feels kind of bad I'd have to use my wartrike just so they could advance and charge
Jidmah wrote: Warbikers are just one unit though and there are plenty of viable evil suns builds right now. I also had some really good results with warbikers in 8th.
If you lock yourself into as single play style, you are just asking to get screwed over ever time a CA or codex gets released.
Up until the codex dropped we didn't have anything playable. After that we had the Scrapjets and the other one (I have 3 scrapjets), but by that point I was playing FreeBootas with my scrapjets and having a lot of success and fun. I don't paint my models any klan, i have a kustom job for that and they play as whichever klan I feel like. I had a game today where they were Deffskullz.
I'm still puzzling over how to make Killa Kans work. There has to be some way to make them at least playable, if not competitive.
My current thoughts are:
1: Wartrike escort to make them faster
2: Waaagh! banner nob to give them +1 to hit
3: Buzzsaws for +1 attack, scrag 'em for +1 again
I'm pondering skorcha + buzzsaw for a somewhat unexpected CC unit which can bully effectively, and if it fights first (with all the buffs above) they have 5 attacks each, hitting on 4+, with S7 AP-2 D2. If you have a unit of 5 (as 6 is blast heaven) with Orkymatic pistons you have 25 attacks, probably using all of them as the bases are big. With the banner that's 12 hits, 8 wounds and probably 6 or so dead primaris. But then you can cast Warpath on them and get them up to 30 attacks, which isn't that bad.
However, it's a lot of support and points to make a bad unit mediocre. I might try it if I've got a list which is built to throw vehicles forward with the wartrike, and get M9+D6" kans charging at the enemy. They might also make reasonable objective squatters, and may even do well enough to stomp any unwary characters if they forget to hide, or their screen gets cleared by 5D6 skorcha hits. Maybe that's their calling - clear a screen thencharge a character. It's a shame all the ork strats don't work on them - tellyporta + ramming speed on 6 of these could be pretty awesome.
On the subject of Ramming Speed - has anyone ever thought to use it on a Deffkopta? I realised in my last game (before the kopta died) that, as a vehicle, it's allowed to use it. Perhaps a lone Kopta could prove a viable character-sniper, in fortuitous circumstances? appear 9" away, shot something else, ramming speed the character for D3 Mortal Wounds. Keep a second kopta for the next turn and do it again!
I'd consider kanz only in a Tin 'Eadz or Grot Mobs detachment. The latter shouldn't be hard to field even competitively as Mek Gunz are still a useful unit. Investing 2 CPs for giving re-rolls to 10ish models is better than using a stratagem, the real downside is the 50 points tax for Gretchins which aren't completely useless anyway and it's cheaper than the Banner Nob tax.
So, even without any support, 5 kanz with 6++ and re-rolling 1s plus a kustom job could maybe be decent enough to worth a try. Orkymatic pistons was my favorite kustom job for them during 8th (only played kanz in full Tin Eadz lists in may-june) but sparkly bitz is also good on a rokkit squad if there aren't any KMB dreads or naut in the list.
5 Grot Mobs Kanz with Rokkits and Sparkly Bitz is probably the way I'd field them.
some bloke wrote: I'm still puzzling over how to make Killa Kans work. There has to be some way to make them at least playable, if not competitive.
Put three of them stacked on each other in a trenchcoat and use as morkanaut
However, it's a lot of support and points to make a bad unit mediocre. I might try it if I've got a list which is built to throw vehicles forward with the wartrike, and get M9+D6" kans charging at the enemy. They might also make reasonable objective squatters, and may even do well enough to stomp any unwary characters if they forget to hide, or their screen gets cleared by 5D6 skorcha hits. Maybe that's their calling - clear a screen thencharge a character. It's a shame all the ork strats don't work on them - tellyporta + ramming speed on 6 of these could be pretty awesome.
This is pretty much the way to do it. Put them in a list with other vehicles and just let them do their thing. With the changes to morale they aren't horrible anymore, so they have decent chance of clobbering someone off an objective. I'd just suggest putting rokkits on them, since they are the only gun that is likely to have a serious impact even when shot in low numbers. Skorchas are too expensive and have too little impact. Something also worth noting is that kanz actually do benefit from the tin 'eads subculture - if my memory doesn't fail me you were looking into creating a dread army anyways, so tin 'eads would be something worth looking into.
On the subject of Ramming Speed - has anyone ever thought to use it on a Deffkopta? I realised in my last game (before the kopta died) that, as a vehicle, it's allowed to use it. Perhaps a lone Kopta could prove a viable character-sniper, in fortuitous circumstances? appear 9" away, shot something else, ramming speed the character for D3 Mortal Wounds. Keep a second kopta for the next turn and do it again!
I have occasionally, but it's more of an opportunity thing. I wouldn't plan around it, as d3 mortal wounds are not going to assassinate a character worth assassinating. If I use ramming speed on koptas, it's usually to jump across intervening models to charge a long-range shooting unit, or a unit that is unlikely to kill the kopta like a large blob of sisters or horrors.
Personally, the second list looks pretty interesting. A reasonable amount of boyz, visions of smoke on da boomer and lots deff skulls MANz with PKs. It's really amazing how many different ork builds are doing well right now.
Jidmah wrote: Personally, the second list looks pretty interesting. A reasonable amount of boyz, visions of smoke on da boomer and lots deff skulls MANz with PKs. It's really amazing how many different ork builds are doing well right now.
Triple MSU deff koptas too.
9th is a wild edition.
Edit: personally though, I think these horde lists are only doing well because the boogeymen are elite armies ( Custodes, SM ). As soon as that stops being true and people bring even a couple hairs more horde clearing I would wager these boy lists stop placing.
The second list confused me a bit. I guess its more of a take and hold list than anything since 10 man squads with no trukks are kinda useless except for holding objectives imo
Yeah it works great to do secondaries, actions and run onto objectives. Also the Evil Sunz Boys are really fast and can raise banners on objectives that are placed 9" from the deployment zone with their 6" movement turn 1. Also there is a chance the opponent looses firepower if he overkills units but if you have 2 dudes left there is also a good chance 1 will survive the attrition test.
Second list is really interesting. Wonder why he chose PK Meganobs - strict WYSIWYG and lack of models? I don`t see the kustom shootas doing much and it`s just 6 points more to equipp all with dual saws.
Nice to see he used Stormboys and Koptas for secondaries as well and 3 x 10 Kommandos with PK sounds really cool and they have some additional thread potential.
Adding 1 Boomer would not have been my choice for that kind of list to be honest, but i guess it kinda helped the Meganobs and vice versa.
And even with visions it`s what, about 8 hits if da boomer shoots twice? So 3-4 Dead Primaris and not even enough to kill a T7 vehicle on average.
Feels more like a gun magnet here than being that good. But hey, if it works.
3 MANz deathskull unit has a serious chance to do damage just a few times and you can use reroll on PK damage + custom shootas can do some damage to sam geq stinking around. But is it better than 2xkillsaw? I'm not sure.....
Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...
GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.
Same.
Its fine on Ghaz because he cant hide. The Void Dragon can, and im feeling a bit dirty knowing i just bought into necrons and that beast is coming lol
Jidmah wrote: I think the article mentioned him using the MANz to sit on objectives. With that in mind, the shootas make slightly more sense.
Hmm ok. Still he brought Da Jump and if they ever see CC those 3 extra attacks + better AP is always superior. But hey, he went second so it worked out for him.
Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...
GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.
Well there was already an FAQ that said attacks that ignore rules like "just get x damage per phase" ignore rules like the one Ghazzi has, so it was to expect to see more of this stuff.
Let`s see what units get those kind of rules first. As far as i know there have not been any so far.
gungo wrote: Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...
GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.
Dont forget as the datasheet currently stands, Ctan are characters so he would get character protection on top of it
gungo wrote: Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...
GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.
Dont forget as the datasheet currently stands, Ctan are characters so he would get character protection on top of it
Yeah, that's my main concern. Between character protection and healing options built into the Void Dragon, it's going to have to cost a lot of offset that durability.
cody.d. wrote: Sooo, we've seen a bit for both Crons and Marines. Anyone else feel like a fair bit of bloat is already starting to occur?
I think bloat is going full steam when we see all the weapon updates giving out more shots, and more damage. Only characters like ghaz will survive and vehicles will just melt. Then Gw is just creating needless caveats like ghaz good dragon damage restriction and then handing out abilities that ignore those restrictions etc
Bloat refers to the ruleset getting littered with countless additions to it, many of them unnecessary or redundant. For the PA series could be considered bloat for 8th.
What you guy are referring to is called "power creep", which means a constant increase of power with each release.
RP is bloated beyond believe. And i mostly blame their new way of writing everything out as literal "one at a time" events.
Its confusing as hell, you almost cant read anything in the new codexes once and even have a remote understanding how it works right. You gotta read it slowly and take into context how the core rules are written for it to make sense.
Im already seeing it a lot. Necron players are confused, thinking that if 19 of 20 warriors died and you somehow passed all 19 RP rolls only 1 warrior stands up. Which isnt the case, its worded "one at a time, spend the successful die to revive a model" because it factors in multiwounded models as needing multiple dice.
Im expecting the FAQs for these new codexes (FAQ, not Eratta) to be rather huge because people will just get lost and confused way too often.
Does make me wonder how the ork codex is going to be tweaked when it eventually comes out. Hopefully brought in line with the current design styles. The traits brought up to the quality of the Deffskulls. (by comparison the goffs, badmoons and snakebites feel pretty weak.)
In the old rules, C'tan had a rule called "Above All Others" which meant they couldn't join units and effectively sacrificed their character protection for being awesome.
I could imagine the Void Dragon getting such a rule to prevent him being seriously overpowered. Though they'll likely test run him against primaris with lots of snipers and declare him to be balanced.
Liking the idea of MSU boys on foot, actually. Makes a lot of sense for mitigating overkill and morale, and also allows them to screen each other for extended durability. 3 units of 10 boys could camp an objective more effectively than 1 unit of 30, with 2 units forming a wall and the third set back on the objective. Plus they can split up if they survive to the later game to snag lost objectives without losing their existing ones.
Jidmah wrote: Personally, the second list looks pretty interesting. A reasonable amount of boyz, visions of smoke on da boomer and lots deff skulls MANz with PKs. It's really amazing how many different ork builds are doing well right now.
I think players are starting to see a wider picture of the game. This guy basically says he´s playing a delaying action concerning the actual fighting, but going all in for the VP-play. Connecting back to my earlier argumentation that Boyz being good (cheap semi-durable infantry that doesn´t give up many VP is perfect for actions and objective duty) and play 9th, not 8th, this list is of the that strategy. It´s very interesting and makes the games more fun imo.
And it's not only an Ork thing really. You could do similar things with Marine Scouts or Wind Riders mixed up with fighting elements. Basically weigh between fighting and scoring elements where before it was all fighting.
I've just had a little Ork-epiphany for a tricky little combo to throw down the opponents throat on turn 1:
Evil Suns, with a Deffkilla Wartrike, Gorkanaught, Orkymatic Pistons, and a KFF Mek inside with Rezmekkas Redder Armour.
I've never run the Redder Armour, but it sounds like an ideal combo with the gorkanaught - +1 movement and mortal wounds to nearby units on a 4+ - ideal if your opponent tries a counter-charge.
I'm making a list marrying this with 2 units of deffkoptas to act as a charging-in screen to hold the enemy back for a turn whilst I develop a foothold. It should be pretty easy to get into turn 1 charges this this lot:
Averages (without rerolls) are:
Wartrike & Koptas: 31" charge range
Gorkanaught: 29" charge range
and there's points to spare for a few units of boys to hunker down on objectives.
I'm also considering bringing an Aegis Defense line and a unit of gretchin. The grots are short enough that they can't be seen behind the aegis, so they can be wrapped up on an objective and the only way to get them is to charge them - too bad you're stuck in your deployment zone with my screen! The boys will move onto objectives, and maybe some kommandos to close the gaps.
Vineheart01 wrote: Same.
Its fine on Ghaz because he cant hide. The Void Dragon can, and im feeling a bit dirty knowing i just bought into necrons and that beast is coming lol
You ASSUME he can hide.
I suspect all c'tans won't be characters. Those tower over necrons so character protection always felt silly. It was needed to prevent them always dying before doing anything. This solves that issue so both protections are unneeded.
gungo wrote: Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...
GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.
Dont forget as the datasheet currently stands, Ctan are characters so he would get character protection on top of it
We haven't seen full datasheet of void dragon though. We don't know are they characters. Or maybe it's just void dragon ability and he isn't character. All all c'tans get same ability and all lose character.
We haven't SEEN actual datasheet. we have seen just bits and pieces.
I finished my Koptas list, it's in the Army Lists section.
Realised that both "Visions in da smoke" and Warpath are excellent choices for deffkoptas - rerolling 10 rokkit shots, and then charging in with 3D3 S5 attacks apiece, which reroll to hit, is going to be pretty effective!
Not sure how More Dakka would work on that unit if it got Visions - 10 rokkits, dakka-ing on 5's, rerolling to hit - could stack up to a lot of damage!
-Edit: Did the maths on 10 rokkit shots, and without visions we get 3.8 hits, With Visions we get 7.1 hits and with visions and more dakka we get 8.6 hits. So More Dakka's only worth it if you have excess CP to burn for an extra hit or two.
This should translate to 3-4 unsaved wounds on a T8 model and 5-6 unsaved on a T7 model, which is a fair chunk of damage to an enemy big'un.
Jidmah wrote: Also keep in mind that koptas can use long, uncontrolled bursts if you really want to mess up something like a primaris tank.
Yes, I knew there was something else which I'd thought of and then forgotten!
I believe that they can also charge fliers, which is a good utility!
Maths with VITS (Visions In The Smoke), LUB (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) and MD (More Dakka) on 5 koptas firing 10 rokkits:
Nothing: 3.9 hits VITS: 7.1 hits VITS, MD: 8.6 hits VITS, LUB: 9.4 hits VITS, MD, LUB: 11.25 hits (yep, we average more hits than shots)
So if you're low on CP and got Visions off on a unit of koptas, Long Uncontrolled bursts is better than More Dakka, and both somehow pushes our average hits to 112.5%, making orks the most accurate army in the game. Huzzah!
Vineheart01 wrote: Same.
Its fine on Ghaz because he cant hide. The Void Dragon can, and im feeling a bit dirty knowing i just bought into necrons and that beast is coming lol
You ASSUME he can hide.
I suspect all c'tans won't be characters. Those tower over necrons so character protection always felt silly. It was needed to prevent them always dying before doing anything. This solves that issue so both protections are unneeded.
gungo wrote: Just noticed the necron void dragon ctan is getting the ghaz wound per phase limit but at 3 wounds per phase... plus he can heal himself by killing vehicles...
GW is going to hand out that ability to a lot of units in this edition... I honestly think it’s a bad idea giving abilities like this to artificially make units immune.
Dont forget as the datasheet currently stands, Ctan are characters so he would get character protection on top of it
We haven't seen full datasheet of void dragon though. We don't know are they characters. Or maybe it's just void dragon ability and he isn't character. All all c'tans get same ability and all lose character.
We haven't SEEN actual datasheet. we have seen just bits and pieces.
I mean yeah I know. Thats why I mentioned "as it currently stands" aka how the C'Tan sheet currently exists in the 8th edition codex. Obviously the void dragon isnt in there, im making an inference based on data we have now. Everything could change (and should)
Jidmah wrote: Also keep in mind that koptas can use long, uncontrolled bursts if you really want to mess up something like a primaris tank.
Yes, I knew there was something else which I'd thought of and then forgotten!
I believe that they can also charge fliers, which is a good utility!
Maths with VITS (Visions In The Smoke), LUB (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) and MD (More Dakka) on 5 koptas firing 10 rokkits:
Nothing: 3.9 hits
VITS: 7.1 hits
VITS, MD: 8.6 hits
VITS, LUB: 9.4 hits
VITS, MD, LUB: 11.25 hits (yep, we average more hits than shots)
So if you're low on CP and got Visions off on a unit of koptas, Long Uncontrolled bursts is better than More Dakka, and both somehow pushes our average hits to 112.5%, making orks the most accurate army in the game. Huzzah!
I'll probably try a mixed ES/DS list with a unit of 5 Deff Koptas.
The really powerful thing is actually the ability for the deff Koptas to fire and fade -- so for 1 CP, they can move 23" to get a shot off, then move another 23" after that to get hidden.
Jidmah wrote: Also keep in mind that koptas can use long, uncontrolled bursts if you really want to mess up something like a primaris tank.
Yes, I knew there was something else which I'd thought of and then forgotten!
I believe that they can also charge fliers, which is a good utility!
Maths with VITS (Visions In The Smoke), LUB (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) and MD (More Dakka) on 5 koptas firing 10 rokkits:
Nothing: 3.9 hits
VITS: 7.1 hits
VITS, MD: 8.6 hits
VITS, LUB: 9.4 hits
VITS, MD, LUB: 11.25 hits (yep, we average more hits than shots)
So if you're low on CP and got Visions off on a unit of koptas, Long Uncontrolled bursts is better than More Dakka, and both somehow pushes our average hits to 112.5%, making orks the most accurate army in the game. Huzzah!
Good job! I see you Mr. Repulsor with your FLY keyword!
Jidmah wrote: So, what exactly is the problem then?
The ork codex was released two years ago and I think no would disagree that playing index orks sucked.
Time and money I got 3 scrapjets painted up but if I wanted to run ES in 8th I would have needed at least twice that
Mucking about with list building again and found that a unit of 3 bikes with a kombi-skorcha nob comes in at under 100 points, and looks like a handy little unit for clearing screens. I've thrown a 1k list together featuring 3 of such units, with some other skorcha-themed units and the pyromaniaks kulture. I think it has... ...12 skorchas in the list? 3 bikers, deffkilla, 5 kombi-skorcha nobs and a big trakk with 3 skorchas on it for them to ride in.
the unit of 3 bikers with kombi-skorcha gets 18 S5 shots, + D6 S5 AP-1 hits, + 2 shoota shots at 6+ to hit, all for about 93 points I think? with 7 T5 4+ wounds to get through to get rid of the nob, it looks like it should be decent.
some bloke wrote: Mucking about with list building again and found that a unit of 3 bikes with a kombi-skorcha nob comes in at under 100 points, and looks like a handy little unit for clearing screens. I've thrown a 1k list together featuring 3 of such units, with some other skorcha-themed units and the pyromaniaks kulture. I think it has... ...12 skorchas in the list? 3 bikers, deffkilla, 5 kombi-skorcha nobs and a big trakk with 3 skorchas on it for them to ride in.
the unit of 3 bikers with kombi-skorcha gets 18 S5 shots, + D6 S5 AP-1 hits, + 2 shoota shots at 6+ to hit, all for about 93 points I think? with 7 T5 4+ wounds to get through to get rid of the nob, it looks like it should be decent.
That's an interesting bargain alternative to taking a KBB, the KBB is obviously better in terms of shooting, but I feel like the main flexibility for the 3 bikers is that their base sizes are nowhere near as limiting and they're lower profile enough that it's easy to hide them behind terrain and then zoom forwards to fry chaff units. I assume you'd take them as Evil Sunz? Gives them that extra movement boost and flexibility to advance and shoot with full BS if necessary.
some bloke wrote:I'm still puzzling over how to make Killa Kans work. There has to be some way to make them at least playable, if not competitive.
I keep wishing I could run 12 forward with a Snakebite character to make them immune to bravery tests. The +1 to W strat to help in CC but the poor selection of shooting weaponry hurts. TBH I'm wondering what spamming Big Shootas would do. Or a Mek giving a 5++ and 6+++ from being Snakebite could do holding an objective. The 6+++ DPR is better on Kanz than boyz cause if you leave that one Kan with a wound it takes a bit more and significant shooting to remove it for your opponent.
Jidmah wrote:
some bloke wrote: I'm still puzzling over how to make Killa Kans work. There has to be some way to make them at least playable, if not competitive.
Put three of them stacked on each other in a trenchcoat and use as morkanaut
That is hilarious.
tulun wrote:9th is a wild edition.
Edit: personally though, I think these horde lists are only doing well because the boogeymen are elite armies ( Custodes, SM ). As soon as that stops being true and people bring even a couple hairs more horde clearing I would wager these boy lists stop placing.
I think the more relaxed view is it takes 6 ish months for an edition to take form. The problem is social media, coverage and GW seeding books and rules has never been more present. People are nay-saying in a pandemic, and very early stages of the game.
I just saw that Ynnari list bet 3rd in that NZ GT showing Xenos aren't in a bad spot. The game shifted from Table Opponent to objective scoring so board control, engaging on multiple fronts, using your army's tools, all this to counter Space Marines just tabling with incredible reliably points efficient armies.
Or a Mek giving a 5++ and 6+++ from being Snakebite could do holding an objective. The 6+++ DPR is better on Kanz than boyz cause if you leave that one Kan with a wound it takes a bit more and significant shooting to remove it for your opponent.
Kanz are <GRETCHIN> so they can't have the snakebite's kultur, or any other kultur other than the Grot Mobs subkultur from SotB. No 6+++ for them.
Best use for Kanz? I'd say take their legs off, build up a massive gun on their sides and call them Mek gun emplacements. Sadly they sort of pale in comparison compared to dreads or sentinels atm.
I know its not great but I ended up buying a mekboy workshop since I like the model and I want to get some use of it in game. If I use the tellyporta strategem to deep strike it in, can I set up half of it on one side of the board and the other half on the opposite side? And does "no setting up terrain on objectives" only matter at the start of the game or would it apply here as well?
miscNouns wrote: I know its not great but I ended up buying a mekboy workshop since I like the model and I want to get some use of it in game. If I use the tellyporta strategem to deep strike it in, can I set up half of it on one side of the board and the other half on the opposite side? And does "no setting up terrain on objectives" only matter at the start of the game or would it apply here as well?
Keep in mind that only the actual workshop is the terrain piece on the datasheet. The scatter terrain is just barricades and battlefield debris that can also be gotten from other boxes.
While you are technically allowed to place it directly on objectives, in my experience with the 3" rule in place you can consider yourself to be lucky to find any place to put down a fortification at all. Since the mek workshop is an obstacle and not area terrain, the use of putting it on an objective is limited anyways.
some bloke wrote: Mucking about with list building again and found that a unit of 3 bikes with a kombi-skorcha nob comes in at under 100 points, and looks like a handy little unit for clearing screens. I've thrown a 1k list together featuring 3 of such units, with some other skorcha-themed units and the pyromaniaks kulture. I think it has... ...12 skorchas in the list? 3 bikers, deffkilla, 5 kombi-skorcha nobs and a big trakk with 3 skorchas on it for them to ride in.
the unit of 3 bikers with kombi-skorcha gets 18 S5 shots, + D6 S5 AP-1 hits, + 2 shoota shots at 6+ to hit, all for about 93 points I think? with 7 T5 4+ wounds to get through to get rid of the nob, it looks like it should be decent.
That's an interesting bargain alternative to taking a KBB, the KBB is obviously better in terms of shooting, but I feel like the main flexibility for the 3 bikers is that their base sizes are nowhere near as limiting and they're lower profile enough that it's easy to hide them behind terrain and then zoom forwards to fry chaff units. I assume you'd take them as Evil Sunz? Gives them that extra movement boost and flexibility to advance and shoot with full BS if necessary.
I do enjoy taking bikers as evil suns, having 17+D6" moves every turn and still shooting normally (and charging if a wartrike's around) is excellent for board control. Alas, the dakkaguns still fall quite short of being effective, but the kombi-skorcha with a threat range of 25+D6" would be pretty good. 3 units of 3 bikes with a skorcha in each would be under 300 points and can readily cause havoc on any flank, particularly if it's infantry heavy. They can easily mow down light infantry further back with dakkaguns whilst using skorchas to clear the closer one - potentially clearing 2 screens between them. S5 AP-1 has also got decent potential vs marines, though it's not the ideal target!
Do you guys run your Meganobs as Death Skulls or Goffs mostly?
Next week i`ll play 7-8 Meganobs, Killa Klaw MA Big Mek, Ghazghkull and probably a Bonebreaker + Forktress Gunwaggon + Morka / Gorkanaut for lots of T8 targets.
All of them running a 5++ and some Buggies, Boys & toys to round up the list.
Have been playing DS so far, but thinking about adding them to Ghazgkulls Detachment for some extra damage.
Not sure if loosing ObSec & 6++ is worth it tough, also they kinda want to work without Ghaz so i am not a 100% sure about Goff MANz.
Grotrebel wrote: Do you guys run your Meganobs as Death Skulls or Goffs mostly?
Next week i`ll play 7-8 Meganobs, Killa Klaw MA Big Mek, Ghazghkull and probably a Bonebreaker + Forktress Gunwaggon + Morka / Gorkanaut for lots of T8 targets.
All of them running a 5++ and some Buggies, Boys & toys to round up the list.
Have been playing DS so far, but thinking about adding them to Ghazgkulls Detachment for some extra damage.
Not sure if loosing ObSec & 6++ is worth it tough, also they kinda want to work without Ghaz so i am not a 100% sure about Goff MANz.
If most of your list is non-inf then I'd keep it as DS to avoid losing CP pointlessly. If you're bringing manz/boyz/nobz with Ghaz that's a different story and it depends how much you're bringing for it to be worth it. In general you usually want to go fully one (boyz) or another (meks). Mixing just makes it easier for your opponent to shoot you off the field with w.e they bring as most list have a mix of weapons.
Question of my own. I caved in and bought the stupid Mek Workshop. I have 2 Battlewagons and every car (2 scraps and 2 burnas even). I had to get it and I have to run it to be on an Evil Sunz theme. I can't resist anymore. I know I'll never make it good, but what's the best use I can get out of this dumb thing?
I almost want to deepstrike it in the middle and then rush a unit up so I can use it's klaw for the lulz
Or a Mek giving a 5++ and 6+++ from being Snakebite could do holding an objective. The 6+++ DPR is better on Kanz than boyz cause if you leave that one Kan with a wound it takes a bit more and significant shooting to remove it for your opponent.
Kanz are <GRETCHIN> so they can't have the snakebite's kultur, or any other kultur other than the Grot Mobs subkultur from SotB. No 6+++ for them.
Crap thanks for that. I was originally musing over MANz in Snakebites and kept thinking along that lines...
tulun wrote: Some Bloke: the war biker nob cannot take a Skorcha. Check page 83 of your codex.
Dang! I'll have to read that when I get home. I fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Armageddon," but only slightly less well-known is this: Never use Battlescribe as rules!
I just can't wrap my head around Ork warbikers being 27pts when their SM equivalents were what? 21pts? And their pair of boltguns dish out 4 shots at BS3 sometimes with -1 AP and do 2.66 hits for 1.33 wounds and .44 dmg (.67 with -1AP) vs a Space Marine while our Dakkaguns do 6 shots for 2.16 hits and 1.44 wounds and .48 dmg vs Marines.
Apparently that little boost to shooting and being a bit better in CC (SM getting +1 attack after charging/being charged) is worth a 23% increase in price and -1 armor.
I just can't imagine them being competitive in a meta right now that favors killing elites and multi-wound models.
Jidmah wrote: Warbikers have already shown up in a top tournament lists, while marine bikers have not been near tournaments in years.
Comparing points from one codex to another is a waste of time.
Tneva said it perfectly
tneva82 wrote: True. When there's even more broken stuff available unit that would be AAA class in any other codex sucks.
Why Take Bikers to kill chaff units when you have aggressors or intercessors or etc. etc. Space Marine bikers are as good as Ork Warbikers but significantly cheaper. You don't see Space Marine bikers in lists because SM's have 10 options that are better. Doesn't mean warbikers are in a better place than Bikes meta wise, just that they are less likely to be used
Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.
Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.
Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.
DarkHound wrote: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.
Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.
Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.
The reason why I think most people don't bother taking the Waaagh Banner Nob is because his aura is very limited since a lot of the times the boyz will charge out of range of him, especially now that conga-lining like in previous editions doesn't work. Furthermore, those 11 Boyz you can't fit into engagement range will still be bodies you take away to either keep your 20+ attack bonus or prevent the unit from losing out on the boyz that are actually in combat. They're also very vulnerable to being sniped since LoS is no longer based on just being behind your mobs of boyz, you actually have to be within 3" of them.
As far as WAAAGH! Auras go, Follow Me Ladz is actually a better call since it combined with a Big Mek in MA with KFF and The Kleverest Boss upgrade more or less make him into a mini-warboss with more utility. You might have the Killa Klaw on the WB, but a Big Mek with Killsaw is still going to do decent work in CC and having multiple WAAAGH! auras is crucial for the mobility and extra morale protection for a Green Tide style list.
DarkHound wrote: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.
Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.
Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.
The Stephen Mitchell list on the first page of this thread uses a WAAAGH Banner nob, and it's also a goff horde so it should fit into what you were looking at doing. It is only 89 boyz though if that matters.
tulun wrote: Some Bloke: the war biker nob cannot take a Skorcha. Check page 83 of your codex.
Dang! I'll have to read that when I get home. I fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Armageddon," but only slightly less well-known is this: Never use Battlescribe as rules!
Jidmah wrote: Warbikers have already shown up in a top tournament lists, while marine bikers have not been near tournaments in years.
Comparing points from one codex to another is a waste of time.
Tneva said it perfectly
tneva82 wrote: True. When there's even more broken stuff available unit that would be AAA class in any other codex sucks.
Why Take Bikers to kill chaff units when you have aggressors or intercessors or etc. etc. Space Marine bikers are as good as Ork Warbikers but significantly cheaper. You don't see Space Marine bikers in lists because SM's have 10 options that are better. Doesn't mean warbikers are in a better place than Bikes meta wise, just that they are less likely to be used
The discussion should be "how do I use warbikers to maximum effect", not "space marines get better warbikers".
The thing is, you're currently complaining just for the sake of complaining. The ork codex hasn't been in a place as good as now in... ever? And you chose to complain about a single unit that actually got used in a tournament because it's better than a random thing in a completely different codex. How about we just stop complaining out of habit and appreciate that orks are for once doing really, really good. There are multiple competitive builds and a large portion of our codex is playable. Few other armies can say the same about their codex.
DarkHound wrote: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt the conversation, I'm thinking about building up my old Assault on Blackreach mob into a real army. I was inspired by the Goff Horde featured on Goonhammer. I was thinking about going the Evil Sunz route with my Deffkoptas (though they don't seem great with the Rokkits) and some other fast elements instead of Ghazzy and the Meganob Trukks.
Kopta rokkits aren't bad, they're just way too expensive (50 vs 35) if they don't get the deathskullz re-rolls. Taking twin big shootas saves you 30-45 points, which is significant, especially because those koptas don't have any redundancy in those kinds of lists so it is better to keep them as cheap as possible. Kopta rokkits are good in deathskullz or freebootas lists with other vehicles.
Right now I'm debating when or if a Nob with Waaagh! Banner is good. I don't see it getting played anywhere, but it doesn't look that bad to me intuitively. If I'm planning around 90-120 Boyz, it seems like it'd buff ~60 of them. For 88 points, you could take 11 more Boyz, but you can't actually get them into engagement range. In those situations, it seems like the Banner helps front-load the damage.
The banner nob is expensive as sin, even a warboss is cheaper. For 90-120 boyz it sounds good on paper but maybe 30-60 of those boyz are going to be jumped and other 30ish will die before getting the aura. In practise a banner nob buffing 60 boyz, let alone more of them, isn't that easy.
Not really a bad unit but I'd only justify it if a player doesn't have other options available, but a limited collection.
Also, is it overkill to take a Warboss and give Follow Me Ladz to another character to spread out Waaagh! auras? I know Brutal but Kunnin' is the go-to pick, but it seems like actual overkill with Da Killa Klaw most of the time.
I actually prefer Follow Me Ladz to the warboss over any other trait, and it's my go-to for him. The reason why I do this is that his aura is handy for mobile armies (which I typically play) and that extra range really helps, but if you play with a footslogging horde of boyz it may be "overkill". Brutal but Kunning is very good of course but redundant most of the times as a Warboss with killa klaw and da biggest boss is already a moster in close combat, and as you noticed that trait can be "overkill" as well. Deathskulls boss also get the re-roll, and +1CP is always useful for orks.
Jidmah wrote: Warbikers have already shown up in a top tournament lists, while marine bikers have not been near tournaments in years.
Comparing points from one codex to another is a waste of time.
Tneva said it perfectly
tneva82 wrote: True. When there's even more broken stuff available unit that would be AAA class in any other codex sucks.
Why Take Bikers to kill chaff units when you have aggressors or intercessors or etc. etc. Space Marine bikers are as good as Ork Warbikers but significantly cheaper. You don't see Space Marine bikers in lists because SM's have 10 options that are better. Doesn't mean warbikers are in a better place than Bikes meta wise, just that they are less likely to be used
The discussion should be "how do I use warbikers to maximum effect", not "space marines get better warbikers".
The thing is, you're currently complaining just for the sake of complaining. The ork codex hasn't been in a place as good as now in... ever? And you chose to complain about a single unit that actually got used in a tournament because it's better than a random thing in a completely different codex.
How about we just stop complaining out of habit and appreciate that orks are for once doing really, really good. There are multiple competitive builds and a large portion of our codex is playable. Few other armies can say the same about their codex.
Discussion about warbikes was brought up, I mentioned their price being a reason not to take them and compared them to a unit NOT taken in the SM codex which is markedly better as a reason why the Warbike isn't competitive. I then went on to point out that the meta has shifted and taking out elite 2-3 wound models is the norm now, especially now that we have confirmation on how ridiculous Eradicators are going to be. I am not complaining, I was stating a well thought out position on why Warbikes aren't worth taking at the moment.
You mentioned how warbikes have made an appearance in some tournament lists, very valid point and then mentioned that SM bikers aren't taken at all, and myself and Tneva just pointed out, why would they take a unit better than Warbikers when they have other units significantly better.
nobody is complaining in and of itself, merely using the comparison as one part of a justification for not taking a unit. Personally, I don't think Warbikes are going to be usable this edition until we receive our codex.
How do we feel about the floodgates being leaked regarding the new Necrons and SM? I feel like with Eradicators still being good value and Aggressors being significantly toned down that Green Tide lists are going to remain in a strong position. Not sure about Ork buggy spam lists though, since it looks melta has become the new plasma with the buffs they've received between the invader ATV and Eradicators packing a lot of heat.
In terms of Necrons, I think our main issue is going to be Silver Tide and the Nightbringer. Nightbringer is legit full on death for any support character we have in range, and he can actually kill Ghazzy in one round of combat given that his main attack mode ignores his 4-wound a phase ability AND invulns. Even tarpitting is not super ideal since he has the multi-attack mode. He thankfully doesn't have LoS protection, but with a 3 wound cap ability, I'm not sure we'll be able to kill him until T3 at best if your opponent uses terrain effectively.
Grimskul wrote: How do we feel about the floodgates being leaked regarding the new Necrons and SM? I feel like with Eradicators still being good value and Aggressors being significantly toned down that Green Tide lists are going to remain in a strong position. Not sure about Ork buggy spam lists though, since it looks melta has become the new plasma with the buffs they've received between the invader ATV and Eradicators packing a lot of heat.
In terms of Necrons, I think our main issue is going to be Silver Tide and the Nightbringer. Nightbringer is legit full on death for any support character we have in range, and he can actually kill Ghazzy in one round of combat given that his main attack mode ignores his 4-wound a phase ability AND invulns. Even tarpitting is not super ideal since he has the multi-attack mode. He thankfully doesn't have LoS protection, but with a 3 wound cap ability, I'm not sure we'll be able to kill him until T3 at best if your opponent uses terrain effectively.
With how prevalent SM's are in tournaments I think Buggy spam might suffer dramatically, not saying its dead but its going to be on life support at best. A Marine player can take 6 eradicators, combat squad it into 2 squads with 2 heavies and a multi-melta each and they can reliably kill a buggy a turn each.
The good news is that Aggressors did get hit with the nerf stick....not hard enough, but hard. And now instead of 4 of them wiping out a mob of 30 boyz pretty much by themselves it now takes 6 and they only kill 20 a turn. I think leaning heavily into an infantry skew list is going to be our go to win option until our codex drops. The real question becomes, do you want to play infantry horde or do you want to spice it up with kommandos and some stormboyz. I am having some success with min squads of kommandos to grab objectives and to do scramblers/raise. They evaporate if the enemy looks at them, but that means they aren't shooting your infantry hordes taking the central objectives.
If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn. It's quite something for a unit that costs the same points of an ork buggy and it's also more durable (8W T6 4+ vs 3x3W T5 3+).
They'll definitely be meta; at least 3-6 of them are super easy to include in any list and even the casual player could easily take them: it's just 1-2 kits and 3-6 infantry models. A lot of SM players got one or more indomitus boxes.
Buggies are a lot harder to spam: they cost a lot of money and it takes quite some time to assemble and paint them.
Of course it's too early to say that buggies are going to suffer those melta dudes, let alone that buggy based lists are dead. But we'll definitely face eradicators on a regular basis very soon and we need to deal with them somehow.
I refuse to give up vehicles/walkers based lists so I guess I'll bring more KFFs and buggies are a good candidate to start from reserves. Suicide burnas also look even better now that MSU elite oriented lists could be more common due to the upcoming melta threat.
Thing about buggies is everything that removes them quickly and easily costs more than they do anyway.
So in a sense if you can keep the weapons to kill those eradicators out of danger you'll come out on top anyway.
Just a thought but would a small to mid size squad of stormboyz work for tying down non deepstriking eradicators if you give them a boost with WAAAGH for a turn 1 charge? Also would out - contest eradicators for objectives due to weight of bodies and a dual saw nob can probably take out 1 or 2 per turn.
Blackie wrote: If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn.
No they can't, because they lose the ability to fire twice when they split fire. A unit of 6 will kill just as many buggies as a unit of 3. Spending 360 to kill 330 points of buggies is not something that I'd consider to be a hard counter to the buggy archetype.
Buggies are a lot harder to spam: they cost a lot of money and it takes quite some time to assemble and paint them.
A trio of gravis marines costs just as much money as a buggy.
Of course it's too early to say that buggies are going to suffer those melta dudes, let alone that buggy based lists are dead. But we'll definitely face eradicators on a regular basis very soon and we need to deal with them somehow.
I agree, but I don't think that isn't a big problem. If they start off the board, buggies can easily wall off good spots for them to come onto the board, if they start on the board you can try to avoid them or jump your SJD to line up shots. In general, rokkits are really good at blowing those guys up in my experience, and tagging them with a fast unit also is an option - unlike aggressors in the past, these guys don't come with a pair of fists. I think they will force you to plan around them, but no more.
Blackie wrote: If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn.
No they can't, because they lose the ability to fire twice when they split fire. A unit of 6 will kill just as many buggies as a unit of 3. Spending 360 to kill 330 points of buggies is not something that I'd consider to be a hard counter to the buggy archetype.
Eradicators can combat squad. Its not going to be three pods of six. It's going to be six pods of three.
Blackie wrote: If 3 dudes can kill a buggy per turn it means that the max amount of the, (18) can kill 6 buggies in a turn.
No they can't, because they lose the ability to fire twice when they split fire. A unit of 6 will kill just as many buggies as a unit of 3. Spending 360 to kill 330 points of buggies is not something that I'd consider to be a hard counter to the buggy archetype.
Eradicators can combat squad. Its not going to be three pods of six. It's going to be six pods of three.
Yeah, that's my main concern as well. It really depends on which army gets the drop on who tbh, since it's unlikely we can really get away from them with strategic reserves, big base sizes and central objectives making our buggies unable to really hide from them even with the benefit of obscuring terrain.
operkoi wrote: Just a thought but would a small to mid size squad of stormboyz work for tying down non deepstriking eradicators if you give them a boost with WAAAGH for a turn 1 charge? Also would out - contest eradicators for objectives due to weight of bodies and a dual saw nob can probably take out 1 or 2 per turn.
Really depends on how they are deployed on the board and what the game type is. I mentioned in another thread that even with the "nerf" aggressors are still really good at killing hordes. So if you don't get those stormboyz into CC turn 1 they are going to get mulched.
If you get 15 stormboyz into CC with a unit of eradicators you will get 45 attacks (not going to do nob atm) for 30 hits and 10 wounds because you are wounding on 5s, that means you likely inflict 3 wounds, so just enough to kill 1 model. On the Marine turn, if you didn't wrap him, hes going to retreat, kill your stormboyz and if he is UM he is going to blast your vehicles with 2 Eradicators at BS4 So its a toss up in return on value. Is killing 1 eradicator and making the other 2 BS4 for a turn worth the cost of losing 15 stormboyz? Personally I don't think it is. If you put a PK Nob in their, you have a chance of killing 2 so there is that.
Just to reiterate the point made, Eradicators won't be in 3 squads of 6, they will be in 6 combat squads of 3, immune to morale and much harder to kill. Best way i can think of removing them in a vehicle list would be to focus fire them with Smasha Mek gunz and hope for some good rolls, otherwise its going to be lights out for anything T7 and below.
There is no reason to assume they are ultramarines though, they are nowhere near a competitive choice anymore. For the few cases the player is an actual UM player you've already dodged a bullet in regards to power available to the marines you are facing. Most eradicators will not be able to fall back and shoot. I also can't imagine player sinking 720 points into 18 of them - they will auto-lose the games against anything that focuses on infantry, including other marines as well as anything with the ability to sufficiently screen deep strike. And it's not like a bunch of meltas couldn't be had by other armies already for similar prices.
Personally, I think this is precisely the same kind of hysteria we have seen when GSC were revealed to have handflamer acolytes and everybody here was completely losing their minds about how they were going to be the end of any infantry ever.
Now, the Nightbringer C'Tan shard that can one-shot Thrakka... that's something I'm worried about.
I doubt the buggy list will care much about these new eradicators. They are spending 5 more points per model to kill 1 buggy anyway -- if they split fire, they probably often fail to kill either they shoot at.
They were already dying to a squad -- and frankly, it's easy to screen them out with gak like Deff Koptas if they decide to deep strike. You can keep them off of you long enough where they'll probably get 1 good volley and die.
Buggy lists can take stuff to out range them (Gun Wagon, KBBs) which can start cleaning them up.
There are probably other marine units we should concern ourselves with. Eradicators want big units like Morkanauts -- as long as we just field cheap gak (Deff Koptas, Buggies, Trukks), they will just overkill something that was gonna die anyway.
I would probably caution about fielding a Morkanaut now. I'd rather field 2 wagons for their price.
Jidmah wrote: There is no reason to assume they are ultramarines though, they are nowhere near a competitive choice anymore. For the few cases the player is an actual UM player you've already dodged a bullet in regards to power available to the marines you are facing. Most eradicators will not be able to fall back and shoot.
I also can't imagine player sinking 720 points into 18 of them - they will auto-lose the games against anything that focuses on infantry, including other marines as well as anything with the ability to sufficiently screen deep strike. And it's not like a bunch of meltas couldn't be had by other armies already for similar prices.
Personally, I think this is precisely the same kind of hysteria we have seen when GSC were revealed to have handflamer acolytes and everybody here was completely losing their minds about how they were going to be the end of any infantry ever.
Now, the Nightbringer C'Tan shard that can one-shot Thrakka... that's something I'm worried about.
True, Salamanders are going to be top dog in regards to eradicators, but never count out the smurfs.
As far as losing to a horde style army, well, not really. If your opponent wants to worry about infantry he can take just as many Aggressors for the same cost as those Eradicators and gets the ability to dump 216 bolter shots a turn from them. In tactical doctrine mode that is icing 72 ork boyz a turn (Not counting overkill/underkill etc) without rerolls. So, able to gut 6 buggies and 72 boyz a turn not bad. Only problem this list is going to face is going 2nd. If you can get 1st turn and use your Smasha gunz to eradicate the larger threat, you have a chance to basically win the game by turn 2 or 3 just by killing a handful of models.
I'm hoping I have to eat my words and say SM's aren't as powerful as I think they will be. But based on what I am seeing its going to be hard at hte moment to face them.
You must have missed the leaked Aggressors datasheet, they lost all their special abilities.
So the max number of aggressors now shoot 108+16d6 shots which, even in tactical doctrine, cause 57 boyz to die - 720 point to kill two units of boyz is not anything to write home about.
I'm fairly sure that bolter aggressors will no longer be a problem for us.
Jidmah wrote: You must have missed the leaked Aggressors datasheet, they lost all their special abilities.
So the max number of aggressors now shoot 108+16d6 shots which, even in tactical doctrine, cause 57 boyz to die - 720 point to kill two units of boyz is not anything to write home about.
I'm fairly sure that bolter aggressors will no longer be a problem for us.
Max number of aggressors is 18, 3 units of 6, likely combat squaded into 6 units of 3 regardless, they put out 6 shots each for 108 shots as you mentioned PLUS they get 18D6 shots which become automatic 6s when facing against horde units, So that becomes 216 shots. 216 = 144 hits, vs T4 = 72 wounds. If its tactical doctrine turn then no saves allowed, if its not then 60 dead Orkz. 720pts of Space Marine with the ability to kill 480-576pts of orkz a turn is still pretty ridiculous in my books. Especially when you remember they also come bog standard with powerfists so a unit of 3 puts out 13 S8 -3 D2 attacks in CC. So they are SIGNIFICANTLY more shooty than Meganobz but are almost as good in CC as those meganobz, for 2pts more per model. And T5 3W 3+ is about the same as Meganobz T4 3W 2+
So back to the example I started with, a SM list can have 12 squads of Eradicators and Aggressors bumbling about the field in units of 3 for 1440pts. They have the ability to gut 5-6 Buggies a turn and kill 60-70 boyz a turn. If facing off against a horde those eradicators are losing their primary purpose but here is the crazy math for them. 3 with no upgrades get 6 shots for 4 hits and 3.33 wounds with no save allowed, and doing D6 damage means FNP is likely useless. So even against their least optimal target the are doing between 24-32pts of dmg a turn to a horde, So by turn 4 they've earned their points back. Likewise the aggressors against a buggy list are putting out 9.5 shots a turn for about 28-30 shots a turn, 18-20 hits a turn and 6-7 wounds vs buggies a turn which do 3-4 dmg. Not much, but since buggies have 8wounds they are killing 1 buggy in 2-3 turns on average which means their 120pts cost for 3 aggressors is earned back almost entirely after 2-3 turns, and if any of those turns is Tactical it is even quicker.
18 Eradicators kill 18-24 boyz a turn and Aggressors kill 60-72 on average. Minimum average casualties is 78 to 96
18 Eradicators kill 6 buggies a turn and Aggressors kill 2-3 a turn, so 8 dead minimum and 9 dead maximum (averages)
Please keep in mind this is math hammer so it doesn't take into account a lot of other factors like -1 to hit, terrain bonuses, line of site etc etc etc. The point of this exercise is to show that orkz will be facing a veritable wall of fire when playing against Marine lists built like this, and the fact is, they are relatively TAC in their ability to annihilate any target they face. And of course, this still leaves the SM player with 560pts to take HQs and troops with. So when you get to the tournament meta, I just don't see why you wouldn't see a lot of this. And the craziest part for me, you can keep them as any chapter you want because you do not even need the bonus damage for eradicators caused by going Salamander.
And finally, this all brings me back to the tactics aspect, what is the best way to deal with these tough, shooty units? In a footslogging horde...I don't think you can. You just don't have the tools required to shut down enough of the opponents shooting to safeguard your infantry. On the flipside, the Buggy list tends to fair better simply because for target saturation you can take a host of Mek Gunz. And a Battery of 6 Smasha Gunz costs 240pts and is putting out just enough dakka to kill a 3 man squad of Eradicators or aggressors each turn. One thing to be wary about though with Mek gunz, if you max them out at 18 you are losing out on 720pts of units that are functionally useless when it comes to taking midfield and enemy objectives. And they are incredibly vulnerable to strategic reserve units coming in on the flanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I made a mistake and want to correct it real quick. Aggressors are 45pts now. The Fragstorm grenade launcher costs 5pts per model.
If you have 18 SMG, there will be no space for any reserves coming from the flank. You are able to screen your deploy with 5-6 of them. With 18, you will screen half of the field
With the recent swathe of FAQ's being released, there's a lot of stuff being shaken up in terms of the changes to factions that had PA's and were rolled into the main codex.
Main highlights for me:
Expect to see more Dark Angel terminators (specifically the SS or Deathwing Knight variety). They now have Transhuman Physiology built into their rules. Makes them incredibly difficult to budge off of objectives since they make attacking them with heavy weapons less viable while the SS helps mitigate higher rate of fire weapons. For us, spamming more Smasha Gunz seems to be the primary solution, since we can bypass the wounding limitation.
I don't expect to see too much Deathwatch compared to guys like Salamanders, but in those cases be wary of their update to their SIA, since Vengeance rounds now deal +1D rather than extra AP, meaning that stuff like buggies and other multi-wound models with have to tread more carefully.
Notable that two major killy units (I think Wulfen got buffed to T5) Wulfen and Death Company, have rules that no longer allow them to perform actions. This limits some of the things they can do in like deploying scramblers/teleporters, so make sure your opponent doesn't cheese you by accident or knowingly, since they are aggressive units and will likely aim for the center or backfield. Death Company notably cannot choose to Fall Back, so that can be used to your potential advantage if you don't want to get shot if they've been whittled down enough.
I'm expecting to see a fair bit of Wulfen Dreadnoughts with Blizzard Shields as well, between that and -1 damage, they can help to clear center objectives while being annoying to deal with.
I kind of agree with you, I think green tide is gonna bounce hard off of a Gravis tide. They just clear too much stuff off and str 4 boys aren't gonna do anything. Even Skarboys now wound on 4s.
And frankly, I believe SM now have multiple ways of giving Gravis elites Obsec (warlord trait and litany I believe?), so you can't even steal objectives off of them easily.
I think the buggy list remains to be seen. We really do have a lot of guns that just clean up Gravis models -- any failed save with a rocket is a dead model (minus that mandatory apothecary).
14 buggies is still going to be super annoying to kill. We can still tellyporta 3 of them for 2 CP, and drop a ton of shots down before we get retaliated. I think you'll start seeing buggy lists hide half of their models in reserve while the other half hides behind terrain. Frankly, if I get the first engagement, or I can limit the initial blunt, the buggies might actually win that.
Orks overlooked for the armory updates. It was a relatively safe assumption to make that our wargear which was directly equivalent to the Imperial wargear which was getting updated would be updated as well - Power Klaws, Skorchas, Power Stabbas, and a case could have been made for Burnas getting the range increase to 12" as well. But, nothing.
Is it simply an oversight or a sign that we are frontloaded for a codex update that will address these anyways? That's probably wishful thinking.
Madjob wrote: Orks overlooked for the armory updates. It was a relatively safe assumption to make that our wargear which was directly equivalent to the Imperial wargear which was getting updated would be updated as well - Power Klaws, Skorchas, Power Stabbas, and a case could have been made for Burnas getting the range increase to 12" as well. But, nothing.
Is it simply an oversight or a sign that we are frontloaded for a codex update that will address these anyways? That's probably wishful thinking.
Apparently this update was mainly for Imperials/Chaos? I kinda question that given that some xenos things were already changed beyond just power swords, but it does seem like they won't bother addressing stats for Orks until our new book comes around.
I'm more interested to see if they'll bother doing anything to Big Shootas, since they're effectively our analogue to the Heavy Bolter. I personally don't quite see it becoming D2, but at the very least it should have more shots and/or AP-1.
CSM didn´t get the wounds update either, so they´re in a strange limbo of new guns but old durability. Honestly I didn't expect much to happen to us though.
Madjob wrote: Orks overlooked for the armory updates. It was a relatively safe assumption to make that our wargear which was directly equivalent to the Imperial wargear which was getting updated would be updated as well - Power Klaws, Skorchas, Power Stabbas, and a case could have been made for Burnas getting the range increase to 12" as well. But, nothing.
Is it simply an oversight or a sign that we are frontloaded for a codex update that will address these anyways? That's probably wishful thinking.
It's not an oversight, they merely updated weapons that appeared in Codex:Space Marines and absolutely nothing else. For example, for DG all the plague weapon flamers remained at 8", plague swords and bubotic axes did not receive the treatment as power swords and axes, and so on. Besides the multi-melta on MBH and plasma no longer exploding when aimed at planes the update is pretty irrelevant to them. Likewise, eldar only got their flamers and powerswords updated while their scorpion claw (their version of a PF) didn't. If they have had "banshee swords" instead of "power swords" they would not have received anything either.
It's very much what was both expected and communicated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: Certainly curious as well, with how many units are packed with big shootas even minor changes on them would have big affects on the ork roster.
Battlewagons, scrapjets and nauts all (can) have tons of big shootas, and I wouldn't be sad if they became a decent option for boyz again. Doubling their shots would not be the worst idea.
So, with Ghazzies unique selling point now turning out to be an infectious "no you can't just kill it" disease spreading to the C'tan (and no doubt ultimately to other big scaries in the game), what are peoples thoughts for countering it?
It looks like the only reliable way to take the Void Dragon down is to inflct 6 wounds per turns, over 2 phases. This is because he can regain wounds for attacking vehicles, up to 3 per turn(or it may be 3 per phase), and can only lose 3 wounds per phase - so if you only do 3 wounds, chances are he's getting them back!
I'm considering bringing a Weirdboy in most lists now to throw some smite wounds at the enemy in the psychic phase. I don't think we have anything which hurts in the movement phase (when are bombs resolved from bombas? I've never run one so can't recall!). Weirdboys are our only psychic phase damage output, and then we have decent shooting (only one rokkit has to go through to max him out that phase) and CC capability.
I haven't got my rulebook handy - are Charges and Fighting separate phases? If so then that's 2 more chances to inflict wounds, as we deal mortal wounds from a lot of sources when we charge.
I could see a lot of characters (specifically special characters) getting some degree of this protection - I'd almost like to see them get cover for all but one wound, just to stop named characters from getting one-shotted - so if a named character has 6 wounds, then they can't lose more than 5 wounds in one phase. But that's just speculation!
Madjob wrote: Orks overlooked for the armory updates. It was a relatively safe assumption to make that our wargear which was directly equivalent to the Imperial wargear which was getting updated would be updated as well - Power Klaws, Skorchas, Power Stabbas, and a case could have been made for Burnas getting the range increase to 12" as well. But, nothing.
Is it simply an oversight or a sign that we are frontloaded for a codex update that will address these anyways? That's probably wishful thinking.
They told already in AUGUST this would only be the imperial weapon updates. Chaos marine stats and all xenos weapons etc come with new codexes. Suck yes but this wasn't surprise as we have known of it for nearly 2 months now.
Sucks that orks have to be behind the power curve but luckily means just because weapon didn't get upgraded now doesn't mean it's not being upgraded in codex. So the Q is how long wait for the new codex?
SW lost access to all their +1A auras, and apparently the fighting twice general stratagem was removed as well. Maybe ghaz's aura will get a new version.
SM and few around are the only, who have a 9th codex. And chapter codexes are very much connected to the general SM codex. So they' ve got their FAQ. Chaos and xenos mostly do not have the 9th codexes so they do not have a FAQ. What is strange about it?
I do not expect the ork 9th codex sooner than autumn 2021. The reasons are pretty simple:
- new codex will have the promo for about 4 month in advance before available to buy at least Have you seen anything? No. So relax.
- we was one of the last codexes in 8th. So why shall we be the first in 9th? And skip SM because - you know why
- If they shoot out all codexes too fast, what would they sell next couple of years? Hmm? It takes no less than 2-3 years before most of the 9th codexes come out. Othwervise they should make a 10th to have new rules to sell.
- we' ve got a very nice buff in PA book. We have a pretty solid army now. And we are not the most important from the business side of view. So why invest an afford in such army now? Have you all bought 12 buggies already? Have you seen Ghazz as a separate model to buy on GW. I guess no....
- new Ork codex will be in October. Because Orktober. No doubt about it...
I won' t be surprise, if the new ork codex comes in abuot 2-3 years.
Psychic is tough because it’ll be easy for them to screen for smite. Weirdboys are slow.
I think the key will be shooting-> ramming speed / buggy charge -> assault. I think orks can 1 round a C’Tan if we use our charge phase mortals. Charge multiple scrap jets with one using ramming speed.
Edit: burna bomber is nice too but will require you to keep stripping wounds off so it doesn’t regenerate
tulun wrote: Psychic is tough because it’ll be easy for them to screen for smite. Weirdboys are slow.
I think the key will be shooting-> ramming speed / buggy charge -> assault. I think orks can 1 round a C’Tan if we use our charge phase mortals. Charge multiple scrap jets with one using ramming speed.
Edit: burna bomber is nice too but will require you to keep stripping wounds off so it doesn’t regenerate
Burna bomb and eadbutt can easily get 3 Mortals with no invul in movement
Shooting can get 3
And if you are able to charge with squiggoths or scrap Jets you can get 3 mortals plus ramming speed mortals if needed
Assault as well...
Psychic I agree is weak but it’s an option most have in lists still..
Basically we can do 9 wounds in a turn better then most armies.
Madjob wrote: Orks overlooked for the armory updates. It was a relatively safe assumption to make that our wargear which was directly equivalent to the Imperial wargear which was getting updated would be updated as well - Power Klaws, Skorchas, Power Stabbas, and a case could have been made for Burnas getting the range increase to 12" as well. But, nothing.
Is it simply an oversight or a sign that we are frontloaded for a codex update that will address these anyways? That's probably wishful thinking.
They told already in AUGUST this would only be the imperial weapon updates. Chaos marine stats and all xenos weapons etc come with new codexes. Suck yes but this wasn't surprise as we have known of it for nearly 2 months now.
Sucks that orks have to be behind the power curve but luckily means just because weapon didn't get upgraded now doesn't mean it's not being upgraded in codex. So the Q is how long wait for the new codex?
I'd be 100% in understanding of that, but for the fact that they did update the dragon's breath flamer - which is in all but name a heavy flamer, and the name seems to be the only distinction GW is making everywhere else but there.
They also didn't update the two meltas on the very same datasheet as the flamer. We don't know why they decided to make this one excepting, it might very well have been an accident. In any case, it's hardly something worth getting angry over, especially not in the ork tactics thread.
For once, I agree with tneva, we xenos were told that we would not get an update, and if you expected anything else you have no one but yourself to blame.
tulun wrote: Psychic is tough because it’ll be easy for them to screen for smite. Weirdboys are slow.
I think the key will be shooting-> ramming speed / buggy charge -> assault. I think orks can 1 round a C’Tan if we use our charge phase mortals. Charge multiple scrap jets with one using ramming speed.
Edit: burna bomber is nice too but will require you to keep stripping wounds off so it doesn’t regenerate
Burna bomb and eadbutt can easily get 3 Mortals with no invul in movement
Shooting can get 3
And if you are able to charge with squiggoths or scrap Jets you can get 3 mortals plus ramming speed mortals if needed
Assault as well...
Psychic I agree is weak but it’s an option most have in lists still..
Basically we can do 9 wounds in a turn better then most armies.
I think you wanna avoid weirdboys in general, though. In a lot of lists they don't really synergize well, and having abhor the witch is really good in a lot of matchups anyway.
But yeah I think Orks are actually not super scared of C'Tan as long as you have your pocket mortal wounds in the charge or movement phase. Just keep your characters away from that Gaze attack. Ghaz should be terrified of the Nightbringer, though. Yikes.
Battlewagons, scrapjets and nauts all (can) have tons of big shootas, and I wouldn't be sad if they became a decent option for boyz again. Doubling their shots would not be the worst idea.
What is the new price for heavy bolters? I can't imagine they stay at 10ppm with Damage 2 now?
regardless, 5pts for a Big shoota was always a bad investment, if it doubles to 6 shots...maybe, but even then its a tough call. S5 6 shots is 2.16 hits and against gravis which I think is the majority of what we will end up facing its 1.08 wounds or .36ish dmg a turn, not exactly worth writing home about. Cheapest you can run a big shoota is on a boyz mob, and it takes 9 of them to kill 1 primaris marine so you are talking about 117pts of boyz + big shootas to kill 1 T5 Marine. its its a free upgrade and they don't raise the price? absolutely! if they increase the price its not worth it because realistically the big shoota is a tax on a lot of units as it is. Would you take a Big shoota on a trukk or rather save 5pts? How about saving 20pts on the Scrapjet and taking away the 2 TL big shootas? (Granted half of them are BS4)
As far as taking down the Void dragon dude. Not that hard for us, in fact, we are probably the best faction to do multiple damage in multiple phases. I ran into this problem in my campaign a few months back, I kept running into the ork player who was bringing Ghaz. 3 Scrapjets take easily 4 wounds in the shooting phase, in the charge phase they do 3D3 mortal wounds on a 4+ and if I was really worried you pop ramming speed for another D3 on a 2+. In the assault phase those same 3 scrapjets do 4 more wounds. easymode.
cody.d. wrote: Certainly curious as well, with how many units are packed with big shootas even minor changes on them would have big affects on the ork roster.
Battlewagons, scrapjets and nauts all (can) have tons of big shootas, and I wouldn't be sad if they became a decent option for boyz again. Doubling their shots would not be the worst idea.
Yeah, having them as a cheap, low quality bullet hose would be fun I think. Though our anti light infantry is already pretty solid. I'd enjoy a strength or AP boost honestly. But then again, we're thinking from a point of view of having things work well across the codex. Has GW ever really designed things like that?
1) Orks seems to be Tier 1 army.
2) Buggy list has a really serious problem with secondaries, because it gives enemy full 15 VP in Bring it down + 10-15 VP in Grind them down. Goonhammer stats show, we' re loosing on secondaries and giving a lot of the VP in secondaries to enemies. And we all know why - buggies and mek gunz and eadbutting planes. Tons of vehicles exploding and burning down every turn. Well, it' s fun, but it cost us a secondaries.
3) Orks are sucesfull on primaries.
4) weirdboy is a trap. Abhorn the witch seems to be very common and very effective. Like Jidmah said month ago already....
gungo wrote: If your only taking 1 psycher how is abhor the witch bad it limits your opponent to 5vp.
Yeah, I don't see many lists taking more than one weirdboy usually. If your opponent chooses that rather than other more efficient secondaries I'd call that a win.
gungo wrote: If your only taking 1 psycher how is abhor the witch bad it limits your opponent to 5vp.
Yeah, I don't see many lists taking more than one weirdboy usually. If your opponent chooses that rather than other more efficient secondaries I'd call that a win.
This. I would be tempted to include just 1 weirdboy just to try to tempt opponent
If I'm going to cap myself to maximum 10 is okay like deploy scramblers. With 5 I better be sure to win on primaries. Grind them down, bring 'em down. Leaves 1 slot. Who can't score at least 6 on engage on all front? So why would one pick abhor the witch for 5 when one can take engage on all front and take easy 6(8-10 possible without even good army for engage).
Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.
Interesting is, the our favourite Engage / Linebreaker and Scramblers also works fine. But the well known lack of the third one is obvious.
What is interesting for me is, that couple of Mission secondaries works also very well. I have to check them more carefuly and makes some planning.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A) Interesting is, that if you want to deprive enemy on secondaries, you will have to compose a type of army, we have not seen yet - do it like a SM = low unit count of specific type - durable elit inf and super durable vehicles and large bunch of bikes.
So something like Nauts, Wagonz, bikers, MANz.... does it worth to build army around this?
B) Another conclusion is, that we can’ t be good at secondaries, so skip it and do max on primaries. Which means gain them and PREVENT enemy to gain them to balance our troubles on secondaries. Which in fact means that you need to make the enemy to hold about ONE objective per turn. Because if he holds 2 per turn in 5 obj game, he still have 45 VP. Oour goal could be to keep him on 5VP per turn. Sounds pretty easy
What is the new price for heavy bolters? I can't imagine they stay at 10ppm with Damage 2 now?
It actually became cheaper. Still 10 for infantries but now 10, instead of 15, also for vehicles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.
So something like Nauts, Wagonz, bikers, MANz.... does it worth to build army around this?
Generally speaking I'd avoid skew lists. 12 buggies sounds good now but if they get nerfed your entire list gets nerfed. A tournament player of course will always chase the flavour of the month but everyone else should be fine with more balanced lists. So nauts, wagons, bikers, manz and other T5+ units all have good synergies.
C) And last point - face to the informations above, the strategy “Evil Sunz Turn 1 charge with badass units” makes more sence. Because if you park your Nauts or BW with MANz in your enemy deploy T1 you do exactly what we need - prevent enemy from scoring primaries. You can even take is obj in turn2.
Jidmah described his experience with one Naut. Naut has a thread range about 30”. BW could have easily have a range over 32”.
What happend, if you sunk more half of your points in Naut and wagon with 10 boyz and lets say 5MANz with double saw an trike and maybe the Zhad? Enemy have to kill the Naut and 5 MANz. Because if he don”t 5 MANz hits 10x 10/-4/2 or 3 and can do it twice. That means 2 landriders dead. And those guys are not slow, until they have Zhad. Their thread range asi over 18”. Dont even speak about these 10 boyz securing the objective...
Such mess means, you have a plenty of time to collect the primaries without disturb...
Tomsug wrote: Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.
Interesting is, the our favourite Engage / Linebreaker and Scramblers also works fine. But the well known lack of the third one is obvious.
What is interesting for me is, that couple of Mission secondaries works also very well. I have to check them more carefuly and makes some planning.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A) Interesting is, that if you want to deprive enemy on secondaries, you will have to compose a type of army, we have not seen yet - do it like a SM = low unit count of specific type - durable elit inf and super durable vehicles and large bunch of bikes.
So something like Nauts, Wagonz, bikers, MANz.... does it worth to build army around this?
B) Another conclusion is, that we can’ t be good at secondaries and give a lot of VP on this, so skip it and do max on primaries. Which means gain them and PREVENT enemy to gain them to balance our troubles on secondaries. Which in fact means that you need to make the enemy to hold about ONE objective per turn. Because if he holds 2 per turn in 5 obj game, he still have 45 VP. Oour goal could be to keep him on 5VP per turn. Sounds pretty easy
Oo good point. Guess I forgot that as I have yet to even face somebody I could get 10 vp out of that let alone 15.
As for B if opponent holds 2 objectives every time(assuming hold 1, hold 2, hold more) he scores 40. Turns 2, 3, 4 and 5 each 10 vp.
tneva82 wrote: ....
As for B if opponent holds 2 objectives every time(assuming hold 1, hold 2, hold more) he scores 40. Turns 2, 3, 4 and 5 each 10 vp.
Good point, good for us. The stats on Goonhammer shows, that for victory you usualy need 80+ VP. Let' s assume oponent do 45 on secondaries. Than you need to push them down to 30 on primaries, witch means, let him hold just one objective for 2 turns and the rest could be 2 obj. for him (and you have to hold at least 2 of them all the time). Which could be done.
Tomsug wrote: Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.
Agree with both here. In buggy lists the casts are unreliable and neither warpath nor da jump are particularly powerful, plus you have to babysit the weirdboy so it doesn't get shot.
In goff horde lists it might be more interesting to bring one, but I still feel like deep striking is a lot harder on small boards, so I'm not sure da jump is mandatory any more. If you just him for buffs, a nob banner might be a decent stand-in if you want to keep the option for abhor the witch open.
So something like Nauts, Wagonz, bikers, MANz.... does it worth to build army around this?
I don't think you'll have enough firepower if you skip scrapjets and SJD. Nauts are only worth their points if they either buy other dangerous units time or when your opponent has higher target priorities.
If you are running vehicles, I don't think there is a way around giving up 15 VP for bring it down, but leaning into nauts, MANz, wagons, wazboms and maybe nob bikers mit mitigate the issue we have with grind them down.
Warbikers aren't great right now though, they lack the punch to clear objectives of objective secured troops and the durability to defend an objective they are on. The only thing I found them useful for was blocking deep strikes into my backfield because the footprint with their new bases is gigantic.
Tomsug wrote: C) And last point - face to the informations above, the strategy “Evil Sunz Turn 1 charge with badass units” makes more sence. Because if you park your Nauts or BW with MANz in your enemy deploy T1 you do exactly what we need - prevent enemy from scoring primaries. You can even take is obj in turn2.
Jidmah described his experience with one Naut. Naut has a thread range about 30”. BW could have easily have a range over 32”.
What happend, if you sunk more half of your points in Naut and wagon with 10 boyz and lets say 5MANz with double saw an trike and maybe the Zhad? Enemy have to kill the Naut and 5 MANz. Because if he don”t 5 MANz hits 10x 10/-4/2 or 3 and can do it twice. That means 2 landriders dead. And those guys are not slow, until they have Zhad. Their thread range asi over 18”. Dont even speak about these 10 boyz securing the objective...
Such mess means, you have a plenty of time to collect the primaries without disturb...
Already there, but not with Naut'. Bonebreaka (Manz + KFF Mek embarked) + Wazbom (for Alpha Strike protection and escorting them across the board) Deffkilla + Nobz Bikes for that T1 charge. About 700 points of distraction Carnifex and Linebreaker/Engage enablers.
Also increasingly cold on Buggy spam for the reasons stated. Deep striking Tankbustas is a new favourite there as their unit size can take the odd objective. (I even go Blood Axe in the local Crusade and 2x Dead Sneaky with them )
Tomsug wrote: Exactly. Weirdboy is a trap because YOU can’t take Abhorn. And YOU are the guy who have a serious lack of secondaries to pass on 10+ VP. And Goonhammer stats confirm that there is a lot of opponents have a bunch of psykers makes easy for you to score full 15VP. Abhorn is the second most scoring secondarie and third best in “how offten you pass max”. Off cours your local meta could be.... but stat is quite clear.
It’s mostly for hoard style with da jump and warpath being kinda important. I’m not worried about buggy lists as I honestly don’t think it’s going to do as well with the latest weapon changes until we get our codex.
But honestly I haven’t seen many lists using 3+ psykers outside of demons or greyknights neither of which are popular this edition.
Necrons, tau, admech, guard, orks, sisters, even space marines are all 0-1 psykers
Dark eldar, eldar, chaos marines, usually 1-2
If I do see 3+ psykers it’s in a chaos soup list with lord of change and/or morty neither of which is an easy kill.
I just don’t see abhor the witch as easy points outside greyknights or demons...
I have been considering combining a Weirdboy with Killa Kans with buzzsaws. 5 kans (because 6 is a blast magnet) with buzzsaws, warpath and visions in da smoke put out a lot of attacks, with rerolls to hit, at decent S, AP and Damage. I expect you can get one good charge out of them before the enemy focus them down.
1. Opinion is nice, but the stats I linked are stats from about 400-500 games with about 300 playiers, which sounds more like a general prediction. Local meta can distort it of course...
2. If you have 2 psycher characters, you have 10 VP, which is already a solid option. And you don 't need 3+ psychers, 3 gives you 15VP already.
3. You are definitely right, that for the hord list, weirdboy has a sence. But in such case, let' s take 2 of them and let one of them doing Rituals for 15 VP. With hord list, you could have a solid chance to control the center of the board and keep him safe for first 3 turns...
It's funny people are bearish on the buggy list and bullish on the horde list.
I think I'm the opposite. Honestly, I think Necrons will *wreck* horde style lists badly with their new codex.
They can do stuff like:
1) Turn off Obsec for enemy units
2) have an entire army with Obsec
3) Falback and shoot
4) So, so, so, so many shots.
5) C'Tan beats Ghaz. And most horde style lsits don't have much shooting or burna bombers.
6) Their 1 wound models really take so much to put down
If Necrons become remotely more popular, I would be less than surprised to see them smash up hordes. We'll see what the stats are.
Space Marines also got some nerfs to key units like aggressors, but are probably a stronger codex overall as well.
These melta changes suck, but to be honest, unless someone takes 18 eradicators, I doubt we care that you can get more damage. a buggy was dead from a unit of eradicators anyway.
And someone going all in on eradicators means they probably lose to a gaunt carpet or boy tide.
To be honest, i am quite excited about both the Marine and the Necron Codex.
Some broken stuff was nerfed, the better chapter tactics (like Salamanders - bye Death Skulls rerolls...) got toned down and overall they look well balanced and well written.
If they manage to keep the newer books on that level we have a cool edition ahead of us.
Of course thats just my impression and people will find the best stuff sooner or later, but reviews so far look like there is a lot stuff worth taking and few things totally worthless or broken.
Also about that article concerning secondaries: It was a good read but i guess not really big news. That orks give away a lot of secondaries is no secret.
So if you want to tailor a list to minimise the opponents possible victory points you need to:
a) Take just so many psykers / vehicles / models / characters that no secondary gives away more than 5-10
b) Have enough fast units / mass to score good on primaries and deny enemy primaries
c) Be able to block deepstriking stuff and enemy movement to make stuff like raise & engage harder
d) If possible have the right tools to be flexible with secondaries so you can go for killing stuff or for battlefield objectives
So mixed lists will fullfill all of that, but you basicly give every weapon a good target and are much more probable to get tabled if you don`t go for horde or buggies.
But as soon as you take a few squad of boys and 10+ wounds vehicles thin their ranks becomes quite easy against us.
So unless you just go for some buggies thats bad news.
I´d love to try something like 2 Characters, 3x Bikes + 3 x Meganobs + some odd stuff, but i definitly lack the models for that.
At least you won`t give up more than 6 VP per secondary, but that does not matter if you get tabled turn 3-4 and the opponent just does some endgame scoring.
I guess the sweet spot might be to give away 10 VP per secondary max and give away 30-35 points on primaries tops so the opponent ends up with 60-65.
Getting 70+ VP doable for orks.
On the other hand i am not sure if orks should even bother with minimising potential secondaries at all.
Our most powerfull builds will give up at least 1 maxed out secondary or even 20-25 for two but are also quite capable of scoring as well.
As soon as we minimise certain stuff our own scoring becomes worse.
Also the game feels kinda binary right now. It`s ether win high, or loose high. Most games i had were 20 - 40 VP difference or even more while the tight games are really rare.
But thats just my meta where we play competetive but i have not played a 9th tournament so far.
I guess if you aim for top 4 scores become more tight.
flandarz wrote: So, I disappear for like 6 months, and suddenly we got a new edition and the entire Ork tier list looks like it got flipped on its head. Neat.
Welcome back! It's a brand new Ork world, the edition is alot more about central board control and denying while trying to maximize secondaries, so having staying power matters a lot more than just killiness. What you'll notice most is that grots as units are effectively dead, as is the formerly ubiquitous SAG. The most common top Ork lists atm are Green Tide with Ghazzy support, and Deffskullz Buggy spam.
1. Opinion is nice, but the stats I linked are stats from about 400-500 games with about 300 playiers, which sounds more like a general prediction. Local meta can distort it of course...
2. If you have 2 psycher characters, you have 10 VP, which is already a solid option. And you don 't need 3+ psychers, 3 gives you 15VP already.
3. You are definitely right, that for the hord list, weirdboy has a sence. But in such case, let' s take 2 of them and let one of them doing Rituals for 15 VP. With hord list, you could have a solid chance to control the center of the board and keep him safe for first 3 turns...
Look at your data set... while abhor the witch Was equal in points (9.5 average) to bring it down it only appeared in 14% of all games and 7% of players used it...
like I said it’s not that common.
In comparison bring it down appeared in 71% of the games and used by 36% of the players in the dataset..
But you are correct the average of 9.5 assumes it’s useful vs lists with at least 2 psykers that are killable (not something like a lord of change or Morty)
Gungo, good point. Orks are pretty rare army with pretty unique setup, so we are looking the the table, showing average betveen SM and their chaos counterpart. We need such sheet for Orks specificaly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But I checked the mission secondaries on the top of the table and they are relevant for us.
Priority targets - defend and take priority targets. They will obviously be in your deploy. No problem to hold,your own for 3VP per turn, or 5VP if you hold the opponents. That is almost boring.
Direct assault - 3VP for holding the midfield objective or opponents deploy obj. and 5 VP for both. That ' s pretty fun, I playied it already. The mission has 5 objectives so having in mind the theory about winning via max your primaries and min your opponent primaries, you have to control midfield anyway.
Strategic scan - 3/6/10/15 for performed action over opponents turn on 1/2/3/4+ objectives in mission with 5 objectives and all of them in the center of the field, no one in deploy. Can be performed by any unit and can be performed by mutliple units on multiple objectives in the same time. They “just” need to have no opponent in objective range. That also could be done. If yuo have bunch of small cheap units like kommandos and 10 boyz, they can perform it pretty fast without lowering your dakka.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ha! I' ve found the right HQ for the Grot mob detachement with SMG' s = the winner is .... tradá ... Kaptin Badrukk! For just 90p you have 4w 5++ model with fine shooting that ignores the troubles with CLAN only transport.
You can even waste 2CP and give him 36” range - If you have nothing alse to burn them on.....
I have a question about Ghazzy. So today i had my first and longest battle of 1700 points in which i used Ghazzy.
As it stands right now im using Goff culture and thats the color scheme ive gone for.
My question is this: In a competitive, or at least semi competitive list, how is the best way to use Ghaz? what Culture are we talking about?
Because Deathskulls are seemingly better than Goff, yet you get your full money worth of Ghaz if you use him in a Goff group.
So how should you manage that, to benefit the best from a strong rooster in which Ghaz is present? Should you just say EFF' it and use him in a Deathskulls group or should you make a mini patrol group with Ghazzy in it and just throw some boyz in it?
It was my first 9th edition battle btw. and i won! against the hordes of Mortarion, and the Deathguard. Ghazzy krumped Mortarion with the help of his trusty Mega nobz. Im so happy for that victory.
I have a question about Ghazzy. So today i had my first and longest battle of 1700 points in which i used Ghazzy.
As it stands right now im using Goff culture and thats the color scheme ive gone for.
My question is this: In a competitive, or at least semi competitive list, how is the best way to use Ghaz? what Culture are we talking about?
Because Deathskulls are seemingly better than Goff, yet you get your full money worth of Ghaz if you use him in a Goff group.
So how should you manage that, to benefit the best from a strong rooster in which Ghaz is present? Should you just say EFF' it and use him in a Deathskulls group or should you make a mini patrol group with Ghazzy in it and just throw some boyz in it?
It was my first 9th edition battle btw. and i won! against the hordes of Mortarion, and the Deathguard. Ghazzy krumped Mortarion with the help of his trusty Mega nobz. Im so happy for that victory.
Congrats on the win!
I would say that the reason why Ghazzy sees play atm is partly because he synergizes very well with a Goff Horde Skarboyz list. S5 with his buffs to attacks and reroll one's means that it gives them enough oomph in CC to seriously do enough damage when combined with the Goff Klan trait. The horde style list is also more about area denial for primaries and limiting secondaries for your opponent. Ghazzy fills in that gap of handling dangerous multi-wound models that even Skarboyz can struggle with. So that's why he's basically relegated to Goff lists for now, since other klans really don't get as much out of him since they miss out on the rerolls.
tulun wrote: To be fair too, the Ghaz tide list also works because of the popularity of very elite armies like Custodes, Ad mech, Space Marines, and so on.
That list will fair better if your opponent is gearing to kill Space Marines, not horde.
Very true, though I would say that there are few hordes that can go head to head with Orks, with mainly Slaanesh daemons having the speed and abilities to get the drop on us.
If it wasn't for the prohibitive dollar costs a GSC horde list would be fairly interesting. A guard infantry horde would also give us a fight, even after they lost the vigilus detachments (A vigilus catachan detachment may actually win in most scenarios.)
cody.d. wrote: If it wasn't for the prohibitive dollar costs a GSC horde list would be fairly interesting. A guard infantry horde would also give us a fight, even after they lost the vigilus detachments (A vigilus catachan detachment may actually win in most scenarios.)
Yeah, it depends on your local meta to some extent. Just like with GSC, you don't really see infantry guard ranking in the top lists because SM lists absolutely shred them to bits in both CC and shooting. Orks manage to get by just because we have KFF and FNP coverage and Green Tide to let us recycle units. With the recent change to Imperial weapons, I think we might be seeing more guard players trying out chimera flamer lists.
That could change with the multiple nerfs to aggressors perhaps? And the nerfs to Deathwatch. Both of which i'd consider damn near hard counters to hordes.
Has anyone given thought to using a chinork to flying Eadbutt? It’s a cheaper option to burna bomber and and has same special keywords on the bottom of profile. Unless I’m missing something use the scouting ahead and for 90 points it does D6 mortals on explosion for six inch radius.
cody.d. wrote: That could change with the multiple nerfs to aggressors perhaps? And the nerfs to Deathwatch. Both of which i'd consider damn near hard counters to hordes.
The nerf to aggressors will definitely curb a lot of their burst potential in wiping out hordes, but I feel like it's really the one-two punch of doctrines + bolter discipline combined with assault that lets marines handle hordes fairly well. That's why the 5++ save for Daemons and Orks is huge because we can actually mitigate some of that damage, whereas guys like Nids and Guard have to take the hit with usually no saves, outside of stuff like Catalyst for Nids (and that's only one unit). Ghazzy acts as a charge deterrent, especially since he gets more attacks as he gets wounded.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bclion wrote: Has anyone given thought to using a chinork to flying Eadbutt? It’s a cheaper option to burna bomber and and has same special keywords on the bottom of profile. Unless I’m missing something use the scouting ahead and for 90 points it does D6 mortals on explosion for six inch radius.
The problem is that you'll be out of explosion radius for all enemy units when you do it, since you have to be outside of 9" when you do scouting ahead. Not to mention that we don't even know if the warkopta will still be in the new FW index.
Bclion wrote: Well if it’s allowed you don’t have to use the scouting ahead rule. Could just start game on board and turbo boost up and Eadbutt a nice target.
The practical reason why is that most people don't have warkopta models, but even in the case that you did, I think a big reason why it's not a practical use of points is because warkoptas do a lot more damage acting as a transport given that their rattler kannons do a significant amount of damage for their points. Furthermore, D6 mortal wounds, while better than the usual D3, has too much variance to spend 85+ points on just to maybe do some mortal wounds on frontline units. Burna bommers are a lot more popular for flying eadbutt precisely because you have a flat 3 mortal wounds for when they explode, meaning you don't lose out on your CP and points investment by rolling a bunch of 1's for mortals. Furthermore, unlike the Warkopta, Burna Bommers can do a decent amount of damage with the bombs they drop before they die, meaning you get to double dip on a unit with mortals, and the fact that Burna Bommers can effectively go everywhere on the table, while the warkoptas have a hard limit on their speed, means its easier for your opponent to deploy to deny your warkopta than they would a Burna Bommer.
Yeah, the burna bomma is such a wonderful target for the flyin' Eadbutt strat because of how consistent it is. Sure some other vehicles may roll big for their explosion and do 6 mortal wounds to a unit, kill a crucial character. But it could also do 1 or have an abysmal radius. The consistency of the Burna bomma's explosion is what makes it so enticing.
Even outside of the many other benefits Grimskul mentioned being able to put a known amount of mortal wounds where you want them is worth the price of admission. Though with auras being changed armies may be more spread out this edition, lowering the value slightly. Still, you'll always make tau castles weep salty tears. (I adore it for setting up easy procs of the freebootaz trait. One of my regular opponents loves his thunderfires, which may change after they too get nerfed hard.)
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It´s not a matter of how, but if. The question is staying power vs points gained as durability of the rest of the army isn´t that impressive. Maybe something to bolster the foot ladz?
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