Just checked out the marine stuff and noticed that the Primaris Inceptor Squad is 45 PPM with two assault bolters at 15 points each for a total of 75 ppm after upgrades and there power level is only 8. So far 1 power level has equaled around 20 points plus or minus a point or two. A power level of 8 should be around 160 points, which is close to the 159 points per unit of the first leak. To me it looks like they forgot that Inceptors come with two assault bolters.
Ok so I haven't read all of this so apologies if previously discussed, but am I reading right that plasma weapons no longer "get hot" unless supercharged? Except Kharns (cause it's always supercharged?) Seems to suck a little why couldn't he have had the same option, ok so he's not slain but why do these characters have to have flawed kit (Abaddons sword) I would rather a lower profile than play Russian roulette.
Ok so I haven't read all of this so apologies if previously discussed, but am I reading right that plasma weapons no longer "get hot" unless supercharged? Except Kharns (cause it's always supercharged?) Seems to suck a little why couldn't he have had the same option, ok so he's not slain but why do these characters have to have flawed kit (Abaddons sword) I would rather a lower profile than play Russian roulette.
Then play with a normal Chaos Lord and a Normal Captain. Kharn and Abaddon will not suffer to have lesser profiles!!!!!
Just flipped through the pages of Imperium 1 and 2... and I really hate some of the stuff in there.
Honour Guard: 2 models. No option to increase unit size. Why? Because GW sells the Honour Guard kit with 2 Honour Guard, Champion, Ancient?
Generic Chapter Master gone? :(
Deathwatch: no Primaris? No Stormshield/Jumppack on certain characters because GW doesn't sell them?
Inquistion: are the cool grenades gone or did I miss them somehow?
Good point ^_^ But you also solved where some of the extra points will go, into the mandatory HQ ^_^ For example a Sorcerer in Terminator armour for more teleporting goodness.
I can make a marine list which out-shoots, outlives and outmaneuvers any of the Necron lists I've tried to make. For ****s sake, this is depressing. Maybe I'll wake up and it'll all be a nightmare...
So far impressed with the revised Sisters of Battle (from Leaks)
Celestine is very powerful - esp with her free Act of Faith - AFO move 12", then move 12" and then charge 2D6" - nice Battle Sisters and Canoness are cheaper and seem to be solid.
I love the idea of the Hospitlier running about patching people up
Flamers seem to work on flyers (they autohit and can be fired after Advancing) and Sister can have lots of flamers
Bastion seems more worthwhile this edition (every time i took one it got blown up first turn in 6th ed)
Not being able to fire out of Rhinos etc and thier points increase is a bit of pain but not major
Repentia having a downgrade on their Eviscerators is not good :( but being able to charge out of the trasnport is good.
Hanskrampf wrote: Honour Guard: 2 models. No option to increase unit size. Why? Because GW sells the Honour Guard kit with 2 Honour Guard, Champion, Ancient?
Deathwatch: no Primaris? No Stormshield/Jumppack on certain characters because GW doesn't sell them?
I
Ok so I haven't read all of this so apologies if previously discussed, but am I reading right that plasma weapons no longer "get hot" unless supercharged? Except Kharns (cause it's always supercharged?) Seems to suck a little why couldn't he have had the same option, ok so he's not slain but why do these characters have to have flawed kit (Abaddons sword) I would rather a lower profile than play Russian roulette.
Then play with a normal Chaos Lord and a Normal Captain. Kharn and Abaddon will not suffer to have lesser profiles!!!!!
Didn't really answer my question, "gets hot" gone or not?
I don't play either of them (since Abaddon stopped being an unstoppable killing machine) and I doubt my opinion on here is likely to change the rules. I was just looking at the profiles to find out about plasma weapons.
The solution here is clearly to take your bikes, run a seperate detachment with the Fast Attack slots...
Have your Mark of Nurgle and your Legion as FETH YOU TIL YOU GIVE US A PROPER FACTION BOOK.
Hell, it's looking like that's what I'm going to have to do.
Just run the keywords Chaos and Nurgle. Possibly stick the Death Guard in a seperate detachment or just run my Legion as God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?
Ok so I haven't read all of this so apologies if previously discussed, but am I reading right that plasma weapons no longer "get hot" unless supercharged? Except Kharns (cause it's always supercharged?) Seems to suck a little why couldn't he have had the same option, ok so he's not slain but why do these characters have to have flawed kit (Abaddons sword) I would rather a lower profile than play Russian roulette.
Then play with a normal Chaos Lord and a Normal Captain. Kharn and Abaddon will not suffer to have lesser profiles!!!!!
Didn't really answer my question, "gets hot" gone or not?
I don't play either of them (since Abaddon stopped being an unstoppable killing machine) and I doubt my opinion on here is likely to change the rules. I was just looking at the profiles to find out about plasma weapons.
No get hot unless you super charge. Haven't you seen any plasma gun rules?
Ok so I haven't read all of this so apologies if previously discussed, but am I reading right that plasma weapons no longer "get hot" unless supercharged? Except Kharns (cause it's always supercharged?) Seems to suck a little why couldn't he have had the same option, ok so he's not slain but why do these characters have to have flawed kit (Abaddons sword) I would rather a lower profile than play Russian roulette.
Then play with a normal Chaos Lord and a Normal Captain. Kharn and Abaddon will not suffer to have lesser profiles!!!!!
Didn't really answer my question, "gets hot" gone or not?
I don't play either of them (since Abaddon stopped being an unstoppable killing machine) and I doubt my opinion on here is likely to change the rules. I was just looking at the profiles to find out about plasma weapons.
Yeah, Gets Hot is only when overcharging plasma weapons.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And Ogryn have 3 wounds. In a world where most of the bigger things got more wounds, or tougher, including Terminators, Ogryn, who are bigger than most Orks mind you, stayed the same.
Eyjio wrote: I can make a marine list which out-shoots, outlives and outmaneuvers any of the Necron lists I've tried to make. For ****s sake, this is depressing. Maybe I'll wake up and it'll all be a nightmare...
You being unable to make good lists isn't the game's fault.
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
Eyjio wrote: I can make a marine list which out-shoots, outlives and outmaneuvers any of the Necron lists I've tried to make. For ****s sake, this is depressing. Maybe I'll wake up and it'll all be a nightmare...
You being unable to make good lists isn't the game's fault.
Feel free to try if you think I'm wrong. Marines do anything Necrons do but better. It's absolutely a fault with the game, the points are too high for necron AT - they cannot deal with big models at all. No other faction pays 75 points for 1 lascannon shot, where that's the cheapest possible option they have.
I have to say I'm pretty damn annoyed by the primaris not being able to use normal marine vehicles. Some arguments could be made for vehicles that cannot carry terminators either, but land raiders? It makes no absolute fething sense. So much for seamlessly integrating the primaris into existing armies. It will be particularly annoying for characters, some of which will have the primaris keyword and some won't. "No that lieutenant cannot go into the rhino with those tactical because he is a primaris."
Also, no chapter masters and no artificer armour for captains...
Ok so I haven't read all of this so apologies if previously discussed, but am I reading right that plasma weapons no longer "get hot" unless supercharged? Except Kharns (cause it's always supercharged?) Seems to suck a little why couldn't he have had the same option, ok so he's not slain but why do these characters have to have flawed kit (Abaddons sword) I would rather a lower profile than play Russian roulette.
Then play with a normal Chaos Lord and a Normal Captain. Kharn and Abaddon will not suffer to have lesser profiles!!!!!
Didn't really answer my question, "gets hot" gone or not?
I don't play either of them (since Abaddon stopped being an unstoppable killing machine) and I doubt my opinion on here is likely to change the rules. I was just looking at the profiles to find out about plasma weapons.
No get hot unless you super charge. Haven't you seen any plasma gun rules?
Awesome, thanks. No I have only seen berserkers and Kharns weapon rules (plasma wise)
Eyjio wrote: I can make a marine list which out-shoots, outlives and outmaneuvers any of the Necron lists I've tried to make. For ****s sake, this is depressing. Maybe I'll wake up and it'll all be a nightmare...
You being unable to make good lists isn't the game's fault.
Feel free to try if you think I'm wrong. Marines do anything Necrons do but better. It's absolutely a fault with the game, the points are too high for necron AT - they cannot deal with big models at all. No other faction pays 75 points for 1 lascannon shot, where that's the cheapest possible option they have.
See? There's your problem. For AT you get heat rays and doomsday arks. Specially doomsday arks. D3 Shots, S10 AP -5 and D6 damage will, with a bit of command re-rolls and/or support, crush most vehicles in a single salvo.
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
My new Legion, using the name 'God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?' and 'Nurgle' will fix the problems.
Lord Kragan wrote: See? There's your problem. For AT you get heat rays and doomsday arks. Specially doomsday arks. D3 Shots, S10 AP -5 and D6 damage will, with a bit of command re-rolls and/or support, crush most vehicles in a single salvo.
Oh wow, you've saved me. I hadn't thought to use one of the only AT things Necrons get in my lists! I definitely didn't write a list including 2 on this very forum even.
Seriously? You think something with D3 BS 3+ shots is going to stop much when the average vehicle has at least 10 wounds? You need 2 Doomsday Arks worth of shooting (406 points) to kill a Rhino for pity's sake. They're less cost efficient than the 75 point lascannon.
Meanwhile, SM get 115 point Razorbacks with twin lascannons and 4 devastators with lascannons for 165. You know, as I said.
So, the full terrain rules are out. It's official, the game is a glorified shooting gallery now more than ever, with all terrain existing solely to be a bunker for gunlines and hinder charges while providing zero cover for melee units.
My new Legion, using the name 'God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?' and 'Nurgle' will fix the problems.
Or maybe GW remembered they were getting one of the first two actual Codex's of 8th Edition.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'll take my turn to have some salt. Might of heroes is literally the Boon of Tzeentch spell, except you get all 3 options at once.
Thanks, GW. That's wicked silly.
Dude. That spell is one model. The tzeentch spell is a whole unit. Come on.
So much crying in this thread. Here's the deal guys - if everyone is crying - it's balanced. (ofc the garbage factions in 7th ed. aren't crying, that's obvious)
Does it kinda suck for Chaos now? We got Traitor Legions at the end of 7th and now it looks like we get nothing. I think I feel how those who played with the 3.5 codex felt after the 5th edition one came out... and I don't like it :(
Sure somethings look ok, like the Defiler might be useable, but it just looks really bland again. Maybe I am missing something .. please tell me I am!
My new Legion, using the name 'God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?' and 'Nurgle' will fix the problems.
Or maybe GW remembered they were getting one of the first two actual Codex's of 8th Edition.
Unless it comes out within the first week we're still looking at a really rough and bumpy month ahead of us.
Ok so I haven't read all of this so apologies if previously discussed, but am I reading right that plasma weapons no longer "get hot" unless supercharged? Except Kharns (cause it's always supercharged?) Seems to suck a little why couldn't he have had the same option, ok so he's not slain but why do these characters have to have flawed kit (Abaddons sword) I would rather a lower profile than play Russian roulette.
Then play with a normal Chaos Lord and a Normal Captain. Kharn and Abaddon will not suffer to have lesser profiles!!!!!
Didn't really answer my question, "gets hot" gone or not?
I don't play either of them (since Abaddon stopped being an unstoppable killing machine) and I doubt my opinion on here is likely to change the rules. I was just looking at the profiles to find out about plasma weapons.
So Kharn has a pistol with two settings - less killy and more killy. Kharn flips the switch to more killy and breaks it off.
It's Kharn man. Kill! Maim! Burn! He's not shooting no stinking pistol on less killy, yeesh.
Pilau Rice wrote: Does it kinda suck for Chaos now? We got Traitor Legions at the end of 7th and now it looks like we get nothing. I think I feel how those who played with the 3.5 codex felt after the 5th edition one came out... and I don't like it :(
Sure somethings look ok, like the Defiler might be useable, but it just looks really bland again. Maybe I am missing something .. please tell me I am!
In same way that all races have no <FACTION> stuff yet?
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
My new Legion, using the name 'God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?' and 'Nurgle' will fix the problems.
Death Guard will be getting a new codex within a couple of months at the most, I'd say out of all the factions they have the least to worry about.
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
My new Legion, using the name 'God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?' and 'Nurgle' will fix the problems.
Death Guard will be getting a new codex within a couple of months at the most, I'd say out of all the factions they have the least to worry about.
I dunno. They might get some unique units (like unique terminators), but if they aren't getting non-Defiler Daemon Engines or Bikes in the index I doubt they will in their codex.
This literally dumpstered the local Death Guard player's army. All he has left that he can use are his Plague Marines, Rhinos & DP.
kronk wrote: Rhino Primaris is quite obviously an as-yet unreleased rhino meant to transport Primaris Marines.
I don't know what a Land Raider Excelsior is, but it's either a Land Raider with Stan Lee painted on the front, or an as-yet unrelease Land raider designed for Primaris Marines.
Apparently not obvious enough - those are the Warhammer world exclusive models. Nothing to do with Primaris marines at all.
Rhino Primaris is quite obviously an as-yet unreleased rhino meant to transport Primaris Marines.
I don't know what a Land Raider Excelsior is, but it's either a Land Raider with Stan Lee painted on the front, or an as-yet unrelease Land raider designed for Primaris Marines.
As obvious as that might seem, they're actually the command tank variants exclusive to Warhammer World. So no new Primaris vehicles as yet.
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
Hmm, not exactly sure how I am going to field my Chaos Death guard army. It contains 20 Terminators with Lightning claws, 6 Terminators with ranged weapons, Typhus and a Chaos Lord in Terminator armor all with Forgeworld Deathguard model upgrades. Technically, they could all be sorcerors or chaos lords. But that is alittle stupid.
kronk wrote: Rhino Primaris is quite obviously an as-yet unreleased rhino meant to transport Primaris Marines.
I don't know what a Land Raider Excelsior is, but it's either a Land Raider with Stan Lee painted on the front, or an as-yet unrelease Land raider designed for Primaris Marines.
Apparently not obvious enough - those are the Warhammer world exclusive models. Nothing to do with Primaris marines at all.
I dunno.
They might get some unique units (like unique terminators), but if they aren't getting non-Defiler Daemon Engines or Bikes in the index I doubt they will in their codex.
This literally dumpstered the local Death Guard player's army. All he has left that he can use are his Plague Marines, Rhinos & DP.
Except there are no benefits for being Pure anything yet, unless I missed something. So there is no reason not to take them now. Then when he gets a Codex he will be ahead of most players.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
In same way that all raves have no <FACTION> stuff yet?
In my hysteria I'm not following you, how do you mean 'raves' sorry?
Races* the joy of posting off a phone.
I see!
My fear stems from this sentence.
If you were to include a Chaos Lord in your army, and you decide he was from the Word Bearers Legion , the <Legion> Faction keyword is changed to <Word Bearers> and his Lord of Chaos ability would then read: 'You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly Word Bearer units within 6" of this model'
It's like it's just saying hey, you can say they are Word Bearers but you don't get rules.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
Hmm, not exactly sure how I am going to field my Chaos Death guard army. It contains 20 Terminators with Lightning claws, 6 Terminators with ranged weapons, Typhus and a Chaos Lord in Terminator armor all with Forgeworld Deathguard model upgrades. Technically, they could all be sorcerors or chaos lords. But that is alittle stupid.
you can use your termintors they share the chaos faction Keyword, they just font have the option now for T5
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get gak on?
HAHA!
Where's your advanced tech now, cowpeople!
Really? Ok. But are you at least curious why they made something that had always been notably more advanced suddenly less? Sure, the Riptide Wing was op as heck, and stormsurges were good for their points. But plasmas??? The hell??
So with the serious lack of info/options on the primaris datasheets compared to standard marines, and seemingly similar case for the DG, would it be fair to assume a Primaris specific codex and DG equivalent will be soon to follow the release?
If so im genuinely thinking about cancelling my order for the imperium 1 book
Bit dissapointed Galvanic rifles aren't -1 on all shots. The dunecrawler looks fantastic though, neutron laser is brutal and the phosphor now fires 6 shots! Although its pricey.
This literally dumpstered the local Death Guard player's army. All he has left that he can use are his Plague Marines, Rhinos & DP.
You use the Chaos keyword, do you get those units?
What about the traitor astartes keyword?
If the answer to either of those is yes... Your statement is absolutely not true.
If there is no benefit currently for sticking in death guard keyword, which there isn't CURRENTLY, how is his army invalidated? Because he can't use a keyword?
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get gak on?
HAHA!
Where's your advanced tech now, cowpeople!
Crisis Suit: Look at us, we have jet packs and cool armor and dual-wield guns like maniacs...what is that...OH GREATER GOOD NO!
*BRAP* *BRAP* *BRAP*
Inceptors 1: Hey, Brother, do you know what that was?
Inceptors 2: *shrugs* I dunno. Looked like a bad Gundam cosplayer. Oh well. What he is now is a dead pile of blue goo.
*Rockets off*
Also, if you don't realise that with Mortarion coming back we are getting a proper Death Guard Codex, I'm sorry, but you aren't allowed to have nice things.
Personally I can't figure out the answer to the question: How does anyone deal with hordes?
I mean, we got crazy monsters and heroes and vehicles with a lot of wounds, and all of the best weapons do multiple wounds per hit. Likely, people will stack these weapons to deal with big monsters.
Yet, at the same time, blast weapons and ordnance weapons and flamers generally do much less damage against hordes than they did before. How does anyone actually kill 200 Gaunts or Orks or 100 Tzaangors with 5+ invulnerable saves (and re-rolling 1's)? What weapon will do the job?
A footslogging Ork horde will just roll over the table with no trouble and assault everything. The answer probably is along the lines of 'Get 60 Tactical Marines with nothing but bolters' but I'm pretty sure a lot of people will fall into the trap of too many vehicles/monsters, too many good AP high damage weapons.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.
But they are cheap as hell, and come in huge numbers.
These plasmas cost MORE and are simply worse at the same time. I know Space Marines have to be the best at everything and gave all the best toys... but this is just getting rediculous.
Did anyone notice that they cut the price of the Assassin's in HALF? Culexus looks like it will still do its job well, as will the Vindicare. I did not look at the others yet, but I think I want to get the rest of an Execution Force.
This literally dumpstered the local Death Guard player's army. All he has left that he can use are his Plague Marines, Rhinos & DP.
You use the Chaos keyword, do you get those units?
What about the traitor astartes keyword?
If the answer to either of those is yes... Your statement is absolutely not true.
If there is no benefit currently for sticking in death guard keyword, which there isn't CURRENTLY, how is his army invalidated? Because he can't use a keyword?
Well ok, but that isn't a Death Guard army though.
He can still use the models, sure; but you try telling that to him.
(Don't, actually. It'd be weird if you somehow managed to and he'd probably shank you for your trouble).
Any screenshots popped up for Genestealer Cults rules yet? too many replies to keep track of so I might have missed it.. I saw the one article on warhammer community, just wondering if there was anything else...
Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
Necros wrote: Any screenshots popped up for Genestealer Cults rules yet? too many replies to keep track of so I might have missed it.. I saw the one article on warhammer community, just wondering if there was anything else...
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get gak on?
HAHA!
Where's your advanced tech now, cowpeople!
Crisis Suit: Look at us, we have jet packs and cool armor and dual-wield guns like maniacs...what is that...OH GREATER GOOD NO!
*BRAP* *BRAP* *BRAP*
Inceptors 1: Hey, Brother, do you know what that was?
Inceptors 2: *shrugs* I dunno. Looked like a bad Gundam cosplayer. Oh well. What he is now is a dead pile of blue goo.
*Rockets off*
By the way, you might be interested to know Tau also lost the ability to jump-shoot-jump. No more jet pack movement at all. Suits cost more than Inceptors, and are worse in almost every single way, hahaha
The oddest (and personally quite cool) thing about the Chaos Index is that Chaos Lords are overall, pretty poor. I don't really see much point in taking a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour over Abaddon in most scenarios.
100~pts on top of the cost of a Chaos Lord for that 12" auto pass Morale bubble for all Heretic Astartes, as well as the 6" reroll failed to hits for Black Legion along with his own, not unimpressive Close Combat ability and halving of damage received seems like a bit of a steal.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.
oh god, rip burnas d3 hit, oh my god it's a flamer, not a tiny match
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get gak on?
HAHA!
Where's your advanced tech now, cowpeople!
Crisis Suit: Look at us, we have jet packs and cool armor and dual-wield guns like maniacs...what is that...OH GREATER GOOD NO!
*BRAP* *BRAP* *BRAP*
Inceptors 1: Hey, Brother, do you know what that was?
Inceptors 2: *shrugs* I dunno. Looked like a bad Gundam cosplayer. Oh well. What he is now is a dead pile of blue goo.
*Rockets off*
By the way, you might be interested to know Tau also lost the ability to jump-shoot-jump. No more jet pack movement at all. Suits cost more than Inceptors, and are worse in almost every single way, hahaha
I wish these keywords like Jump Pack and Jet Pack said what they would do. Jump Pack allows you to ignore intervening models when moving, what does Jet Pack do?
*sigh* And the problem with a huge leak like this is tons of people tossing proverbial gak on the wall while the rest are still processing information to counter it.
Take some friggin' time to review everything properly. Don't just look at one datasheet and come to complain.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.
oh god, rip burnas d3 hit, oh my god it's a flamer, not a tiny match
Seems like that's how units of flamers are treated, the Wraithguard have the same
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.
oh god, rip burnas d3 hit, oh my god it's a flamer, not a tiny match
Yeah, 10d3 auto hits is terrible. /sarcasm. They are cheap and easily spamable, that's why theyre d3. If they were d6, they would cost a lot more, and therefor be less spamable, which is not very orky
casvalremdeikun wrote: Did anyone notice that they cut the price of the Assassin's in HALF? Culexus looks like it will still do its job well, as will the Vindicare. I did not look at the others yet, but I think I want to get the rest of an Execution Force.
Yeah. A great boon for all things Imperial. Culexus Assassins are dirt cheap and can't be targeted because of the character rule. Take two to create anti-psychic bubbles around your army.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.
oh god, rip burnas d3 hit, oh my god it's a flamer, not a tiny match
Yeah, 10d3 auto hits is terrible. /sarcasm. They are cheap and easily spamable, that's why theyre d3. If they were d6, they would cost a lot more, and therefor be less spamable, which is not very orky
They're not that cheap at all. 14 points a model isn't cheap, especially when they have a Trukk/Wagon tax as Burna's on foot will be useless.
Elbows wrote: Just glanced at the full Eldar release. Some nice fixes, and some stuff that I can see being quite abused/over-powered and may have been overlooked.
Also, quite a few grammatical errors which is sad to see. Proof-reading isn't terribly difficult.
What do you personally think will be abused?
Not a lot of Eldar talk on here.
Personally Storm Guardians are looking pretty damn value. Wave Serps still look great.
I am over joyed with the orks new rules they just heap attacks on top of attacks and there's layer upon layer of moral defence the 30 blob is back dreads are viable nobz are viable wired boyz are for the first time in history useful and not just a ball of hilarity to throw into a friendly game they seem to me like they are now the best HQ, I feel I must take one, that said I feel the same way about a lot of the ork units, I'm going to be able to take a variety of models and still be able to win.
The meta has completely changed and for the good your going to see models that no body used to field, by that you will get to buy and own plus feel good about your new shiny toys, while GW make even more profit which in return means more money pumped into developing the game it's good for us it's good for them.
One thing for sure though get ready to see ork army's with at least 60 ork boys minimum.
My only gripe where are the ard boys?
Or did I miss that bit.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.
I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!
Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
My new Legion, using the name 'God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?' and 'Nurgle' will fix the problems.
Death Guard will be getting a new codex within a couple of months at the most, I'd say out of all the factions they have the least to worry about.
I dunno.
They might get some unique units (like unique terminators), but if they aren't getting non-Defiler Daemon Engines or Bikes in the index I doubt they will in their codex.
This literally dumpstered the local Death Guard player's army. All he has left that he can use are his Plague Marines, Rhinos & DP.
It literally dumpstered my army.
I now have 3 Terminator Squads, a squad of Obliterators with attendant warp smith, a squad of Raptors with attendant jump lord and 2 havoc squads who now get to awkwardly not fit in the army at all.
Ah well, since there's no real perks to running specific precise armies yet it means I'm just going to say screw it and throw in a few things like Fabulous Bill. We'll just run Chaos and regret the fact that our army was actually rather fluffy and themed well. They could have literally put a page or a table of Legion (and Chapter) traits in the respective books :(
Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.
I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!
Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?
People are going to have to put models on the table to feel it out at this point. I think 2K at a minimum.
I now have 3 Terminator Squads, a squad of Obliterators with attendant warp smith, a squad of Raptors with attendant jump lord and 2 havoc squads who now get to awkwardly not fit in the army at all.
Ah well, since there's no real perks to running specific precise armies yet it means I'm just going to say screw it and throw in a few things like Fabulous Bill. We'll just run Chaos and regret the fact that our army was actually rather fluffy and themed well. They could have literally put a page or a table of Legion (and Chapter) traits in the respective books :(
These are temporary get you by rules. They level set everything (as best as they are able, anyway).
I mean my exalted sorcerers look fairly useless right now - they don't even have any weapon options!
No Havocs, Raptors, Oblits, Warpsmiths, Vindicators, Daemon Engines apart from Defilers.
And no Chaos Terminators.
WAT.
Looks like til we see a proper faction book I'm running my Keywords as Chaos and Nurgle then. The non-inclusion of Chaos Terminators on that list is ridiculous when you consider the Death Guard were one of the most Terminator-heavy legions of the lot....
Which is why they have a specific incoming unit of terminators.
Also no bikes, no Warp Talons, no Mutilators, no Chosen
...and no Sorcerers on Palanquins for some reason.
My new Legion, using the name 'God Damnit GW, Did You Forget Death Guard Utilised Havoc And Terminator Squads Extensively During The Heresy?' and 'Nurgle' will fix the problems.
Death Guard will be getting a new codex within a couple of months at the most, I'd say out of all the factions they have the least to worry about.
I dunno.
They might get some unique units (like unique terminators), but if they aren't getting non-Defiler Daemon Engines or Bikes in the index I doubt they will in their codex.
This literally dumpstered the local Death Guard player's army. All he has left that he can use are his Plague Marines, Rhinos & DP.
It literally dumpstered my army.
I now have 3 Terminator Squads, a squad of Obliterators with attendant warp smith, a squad of Raptors with attendant jump lord and 2 havoc squads who now get to awkwardly not fit in the army at all.
Ah well, since there's no real perks to running specific precise armies yet it means I'm just going to say screw it and throw in a few things like Fabulous Bill. We'll just run Chaos and regret the fact that our army was actually rather fluffy and themed well. They could have literally put a page or a table of Legion (and Chapter) traits in the respective books :(
I'm both externally and internally squealing like a child, you sir are wonderful
Wow gauss sucks. So much for one of the greatest weapons in 40K.
Wtf are you on about? You guys now get eternal reanimation protocol, are pretty cheap at 120pts with a -1 ap... Necrons look badass in 8th ed. I'm freaked out to play against a faction that always scared me before. Now factions like Orks, who won't do very much shooting damage to you, basically can't take you out if you role lucky.
I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models? That's what gauss was more now it's gone. Reanimation doesn't mean much if you can't hurt tanks. Not sure where the "you guys" came from. Necrons is NOT my army.
Well feth, inquisitors no longer can get power armour or hellrifles... That's all my inquisitor models invalidated then...
I hate when they completely remove options. It sucks if thing you liked to use get nerfed and is not as good as it used to be, but it sucks way more if you just simply cannot use your models any more. Aren't there several official models of inquisitors in power armour, why it is not included?
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.
I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!
Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?
Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.
I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!
Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?
Cawl now essentially gives everybody within 6 a reroll in shooting, so I suspect the new meta is going to be servitors spam around him. Also cantellans, because MCs were clearly underpowered in 7th edition.
There is a three detachment limit in Matched Play. I guess it's just a matter of figuring out how to use my terminators as non-death guard. Sadly, I paid the extra to have them with the Forgeworld resin shoulders, bodies and heads.
Had I done this with just the base models, this would be much easier to fix.
I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?
The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.
I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!
Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?
Cawl now essentially gives everybody within 6 a reroll in shooting, so I suspect the new meta is going to be servitors spam around him. Also cantellans, because MCs were clearly underpowered in 7th edition.
Well, provided you run Mars. I happen to play Metalica, so... no Cawl for me? I wonder how long the wait will be for Codices with the special rules needed to get some flavor back in the armies.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.
But they are cheap as hell, and come in huge numbers.
These plasmas cost MORE and are simply worse at the same time. I know Space Marines have to be the best at everything and gave all the best toys... but this is just getting rediculous.
How is the platform though? It might be a balancing act. Back in 7th edition the ammount of S7 dakka you could bring was rediculous not only because of the relative cheapness but the platform, ie the crisis suits coming in at 22 pts for a 2w model that can take up to 3 each, or the marine squad that costs 13 pts a model that takes 1 on 5 models. To be fair most people took the missiles over plasma anyways.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.
I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!
Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?
Cawl now essentially gives everybody within 6 a reroll in shooting, so I suspect the new meta is going to be servitors spam around him. Also cantellans, because MCs were clearly underpowered in 7th edition.
Well, provided you run Mars. I happen to play Metalica, so... no Cawl for me? I wonder how long the wait will be for Codices with the special rules needed to get some flavor back in the armies.
Yeah, you just get reroll 1s for techpriest dominus. So, unless other forgewords get something extremely good you are basically forced to run Mars.
I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?
The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.
Right, gauss hasn't changed that much (actually, it's arguably quite a bit better), but vehicles have gotten MUCH more durable overnight. Consequently, where a wound on a tank may have been a third of it's health before, it's now more like a tenth, if that. That's the real issue Necrons have - very few multi-damage guns.
Well, well, well , so no tankbusta bombs for the kommandos.
They cannot mix weapons either, which boyz can now do. I cannot say I am impressed with their entry evolution in 8th:
same overpriced stuff!
In the interest of cutting down tears, I feel like this should be said in caps, so maybe a MOD could put this out there but...
These indexes are baseline rules so that EVERYONE starts out relatively on the same page. This doesn't mean your current loadouts are not going to get rules in the future, as they most likely will in some form when your respective CODEX comes out. You just may have to wait. As a Sister of Battle player, you have my condolonces. And as a Sister of Battle Player, im as happy as a clam btw
Burning Chariot says you can take 3 blue horrors as wargear. Now, taking wounds where I see them, could I apply the wounds to the blue horrors first? Could I then, following the rules of split, turn them into brimstone horrors that join the unit?
I don't see "three blue horrors" listed as wargear anywhere, which is why I'm curious and following this line of thinking.
I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?
The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.
Vehicles in 7th didn't have armor saves and the wounds on vehicles now are a lot higher than they were. Gauss is no way the answer. That's like trying to say Guard need to deal with Land Raiders by using lasguns.
Charax wrote: This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.
Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)
Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)
No Relics
No flavour
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?
The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.
Vehicles in 7th didn't have armor saves and the wounds on vehicles now are a lot higher than they were. Gauss is no way the answer. That's like trying to say Guard need to deal with Land Raiders by using lasguns.
...which is why they have an armor save modifier on their basic weapons. Necrons are still the race who can deal the most amount of damage to vehicles with their basic guns. Nothing has changed. It is true though that vehicles are a lot tougher now, so they can't rely exclusively on small arms gauss. Which is why gauss cannons now deal D3 damage.
Charax wrote: This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.
Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)
Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)
No Relics
No flavour
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
This really obvious thing is going to be said about 1,000 times a day for the next month isn't it?
Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.
The problem is you're viewing it from just one angle.
The wraithknight can fight well in combat. A single round of shooting can easily take out a razorback. A full round from all those razorbacks will not kill a wraithknight.
Charax wrote: This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.
Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)
Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)
No Relics
No flavour
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
I'm making conclusions based on the information in front of us, the actual black and white rules that are being published, not what might happen based on what happened in a different game system
Even IF you were correct, that's even worse, because they'll have to cycle through all the different faction codices before everyone is up to par
So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.
Having scanned the rules a bit, I'm still most confused about the keywords. Keywords like Bike, Cavalry, Fly, Vehicle etc. aren't defined anywhere. Not in the Rulesbook we've seen thusfar and not in the Faction books. Am I missing something? Or are these concepts not explained beyond some mention in the movement (Fly) and terrain parts of the rules?
Charax wrote: This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.
Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)
Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)
No Relics
No flavour
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
I'm making conclusions based on the information in front of us, the actual black and white rules that are being published, not what might happen based on what happened in a different game system
Even IF you were correct, that's even worse, because they'll have to cycle through all the different faction codices before everyone is up to par
This isn't some guess. They said they were doing this. They also stated that each year points are being adjusted based on feedback. For most of the core, its the same game system. So don't believe me if you don't want to, but its a fact.
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
Problem with that is it will take years until all books are released, so a few armies will be lackluster as hell whereas armies with books will have lot of options. And I'm not even sure all armies will get books. Could be that some armies like Dark Eldar will be splitted and only get small subfaction books increasing even more the the time it will take to release all codices.
I think the indexes are a useful stopgap for further play testing and player feedback, sadly the drawback is that those armies that get new codex's last will be quite bland and eventually fall way behind in terms of effectiveness. Given the amount of armies and factions we are probably looking at a good few years before everyone gets the full codex treatment.
Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.
The problem is you're viewing it from just one angle.
The wraithknight can fight well in combat. A single round of shooting can easily take out a razorback. A full round from all those razorbacks will not kill a wraithknight.
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
The Razorbacks were armed with the twin assault cannons to demonstrate the discrepancy in survivability. 50 wounds vs 24. The Wraithknight might not die immediately, but it does degrade all the time when it takes damage. Likewise, there's no difference between T7 and T8 when you're getting shot by S9 guns (the most common anti-tank weapon). If you want to do a pepsi challenge, the twin lascannon setup only costs 15 points more per Razorback. Now, have 5 Razorbacks with twin lascannons shoot at the Wraithknight. It'll take 16 wounds in one volley, and it can't even theoretically kill more than two Razorbacks per turn of the 5, and in the actual game it won't even kill one (it does just 6.22 wounds per turn). In short, it sucks.
There's no angle here. There's just numbers. I'll gladly be proven wrong, but on a surface glance, yes, a lot of units offer a lot more bang for the buck than others, and some mega-models are wildly overpriced.
Even within the Eldar faction, a Wave Serpent with twin bright lance and twin shuriken catapult runs you only just a bit over 150 points. For 500 points if you'd get 3,33 of them you'd have 43 wounds (protected by serpent shield) but the firepower would be better, as would the survivability and utility.
Charax wrote: This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.
Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)
Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)
No Relics
No flavour
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
I'm making conclusions based on the information in front of us, the actual black and white rules that are being published, not what might happen based on what happened in a different game system
Even IF you were correct, that's even worse, because they'll have to cycle through all the different faction codices before everyone is up to par
This isn't some guess. They said they were doing this. They also stated that each year points are being adjusted based on feedback. For most of the core, its the same game system. So don't believe me if you don't want to, but its a fact.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns. Neither get hot. Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it. ....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
I wouldn't worry about it. The Plasma Pistol (and Combi-Plasma) might be the two most efficient character killers in the game, capable of annihilating an unwounded character with a single roll of a 1.
Jacob29 wrote: It makes very little sense especially when Dire Avengers are only Power 3 similar to Guardians and yet they cost more than double the points.
Because as every Dragonball Z fan knows: Power levels are bull gak!
lord_blackfang wrote: So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.
Feels the same. Cadre Fireblade lost its need to stay put to give 1 extra shot, but now Ethereal's Storm of Fire only benefits units that didn't move!
I DON'T WANT TO STAY IMMOBILE, DAMMIT! I'm not AM!
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
Problem with that is it will take years until all books are released, so a few armies will be lackluster as hell whereas armies with books will have lot of options. And I'm not even sure all armies will get books. Could be that some armies like Dark Eldar will be splitted and only get small subfaction books increasing even more the the time it will take to release all codices.
Right, im not saying its a good system, but it is what it is. Welcome to Age of the Emprah!
New Skydwarfs just got a book, so they are really really good. When Sylvaneth got the first battletome, they were super good also
I look at it this way. I will have rules in front of me in the next few weeks.
My Current Armies: Grey Knights with Marine allies
Spoiler:
All my Grey Knights are Power Armored Grey knights with 2 NDKs. I have 2 razorbacks and 2 stormravens to go with them.
My marines are Red Hunters with 1 razorback, 6 thunderfire cannons. 5 squads of assault troops plus 2 stormtalons.
6 dreadnoughts, though 1 is forgeworld Grey knight dreadnought.
Feelings: This army should do very well and will be my primary focus going into this edition.
Eldar
Spoiler:
At least 10 of every aspect. 50 rangers with sniper rifles. 2 foot farseers with 5 warlocks and an avatar
Feelings: This army has the potential to be abusive in this edition. I didn't plan on making this a primary army as it has to be stripped and repainted entirely.
Chaos (Nurgle)
Spoiler:
A huge number of deathguard terminators. A number of warp talons to go with those terminators. 3 squads of plague marines of the old variety. A GUO, 30 plaguebearers and 15 nurgling bases.
Feelings: this army is a mess at the moment. The book doesn't match well with them and it will need some help. I am just going to set this one to the side for now.
So, in conclusion, I would say I am in a good position with two of the three armies I own.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: I think the indexes are a useful stopgap for further play testing and player feedback, sadly the drawback is that those armies that get new codex's last will be quite bland and eventually fall way behind in terms of effectiveness. Given the amount of armies and factions we are probably looking at a good few years before everyone gets the full codex treatment.
Looks like I'll be lookin for scans of indexes and rulebooks then until GW decides to get serious...
I mean who should pay who to play test and troubleshoot what?
Burning Chariot says you can take 3 blue horrors as wargear. Now, taking wounds where I see them, could I apply the wounds to the blue horrors first? Could I then, following the rules of split, turn them into brimstone horrors that join the unit?
I don't see "three blue horrors" listed as wargear anywhere, which is why I'm curious and following this line of thinking.
That makes sense to me. There's no indication that the blue horrors don't behave the way they do in their own data sheet.
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
Problem with that is it will take years until all books are released, so a few armies will be lackluster as hell whereas armies with books will have lot of options. And I'm not even sure all armies will get books. Could be that some armies like Dark Eldar will be splitted and only get small subfaction books increasing even more the the time it will take to release all codices.
Right, im not saying its a good system, but it is what it is. Welcome to Age of the Emprah!
New Skydwarfs just got a book, so they are really really good. When Sylvaneth got the first battletome, they were super good also
It's also completely unavoidable if you want to do a hard reset and invalidate all the codexes at once. They just aren't going to release codexes for everyone all at once
lord_blackfang wrote: So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.
Is this a joke or something? Combat looks substantially better than most shooting now. Tyranids can get multiple units into combat before the enemy can fire a single shot. Even Necrons can.
If you think 8th is going to be the edition of shooting, rather than the edition of vehicle rushing into assault, you're in for a very serious shock, I can tell you that for free. These vehicle rules (super tough and shooty, useless in combat and get locked in) very heavily favour assault. I suggest having a small game with you models, maybe 500 a side, just to see what I mean.
Hate to be that guy but it's looking like Imperial armies > everything else, at least in rules balances.
Captains are better than characters. Weapons are better than other equivalents. More weapon choices. Vehicles are better. I fail to see how any Imperial army is not superior.
Elbows wrote: Just glanced at the full Eldar release. Some nice fixes, and some stuff that I can see being quite abused/over-powered and may have been overlooked.
Also, quite a few grammatical errors which is sad to see. Proof-reading isn't terribly difficult.
What do you personally think will be abused?
Not a lot of Eldar talk on here.
Personally Storm Guardians are looking pretty damn value. Wave Serps still look great.
Just at a glance I see some oddities. The Wraithknight for example rolls 3 dice for an attack with his feet...meaning you'll roll 12 attacks with feet vs. 4 with fists. While only slightly worse, this will become the tap-dancing Wraithknight effect. Why would you ever use the fists, etc? The Wraithknight becomes crazy deadly at effectively stomping people. Odd.
I'm sad to see the wind riders still all carry scatter lasers, but happy that they're back to fast attack (unless a force org. chart exists - and it's entirely possible it will) which allows only fast attack (for ravenwing, etc.). So, I suspect these will still be a bit broken/silly.
For mortal wounds being so "rare" the Eldar can dish out a lot of them, with odd units too. Mandiblasters inflicting an extra mortal wound? Karandras inflicting up to four on a 5+ roll. Sadly I think you'll see inflitrated Karandras/Striking Scorpions suddenly assassinating Imperial Knights etc. which is rather silly to envision (a unit of 10 scorpions w/ Karandras rolling dice attempting 14 mortal wounds...?). I could be reading this all wrong, but there are some odd situations.
Maugan-Ra becomes a power house w/ Dark Reapers (which is nice, but almost too deadly).
The Avatar...at a glance, sucks ass for his power level --- and has two oddly worded special rules which provide the same thing? (he has two things listing a 5+ invuln. save, though one blocks mortal wounds). The Avatar looks like he'll be a chump to massed basic shooting instead of heavy weapons.
Snipers - as mentioned in other armies are potentially stupid powerful, and have confusing wording (they add a mortal wound to "other results"?)...Neat for a pathfinder army, but I think all snipers may become way too prevalent in the game.
Things I like:
+Warwalkers got a rather huge boost, back to where they should be vs. simple Armour 10 fodder.
+Wraithcannons have a purpose vs. D-scythes (which I still think are overpowered) ---- I can see Wraithguard hunting down large fellas quite frequently
+Shining Spears got a boost enough to give them a purpose (much stronger damage/AP than the wind riders)
+Wraithlords are solid, if toned down - but you can take four per Wraithknight
+Wraithknights are more expensive by far
+While Eldar vehicles are quite decent their exploding rule could be quite dangerous (and I admittedly like the idea of suicide-charging a tough bad guy and hoping to blow up forcing mortal wounds on it to finish it off...)
+Speed is through the roof - almost too much in some cases. A lot of special rules for adding or maxing out movement...coupled with Battle Focus or whatever the hell its called, this is tremendous.
Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.
Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?
Doesn't the Tau Plasma Rifle costs 11 versus the Space Marine's Plasma Gun's 13? or am I missing something?
lord_blackfang wrote: So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.
Feels the same. Cadre Fireblade lost its need to stay put to give 1 extra shot, but now Ethereal's Storm of Fire only benefits units that didn't move!
I DON'T WANT TO STAY IMMOBILE, DAMMIT! I'm not AM!
Storm of Fire should work with the Mont'Ka Commander ability though, right? It seems like the T'au offensive will be all about that one turn where everything comes together.
Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.
The problem is you're viewing it from just one angle.
The wraithknight can fight well in combat. A single round of shooting can easily take out a razorback. A full round from all those razorbacks will not kill a wraithknight.
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
The Razorbacks were armed with the twin assault cannons to demonstrate the discrepancy in survivability. 50 wounds vs 24. The Wraithknight might not die immediately, but it does degrade all the time when it takes damage. Likewise, there's no difference between T7 and T8 when you're getting shot by S9 guns (the most common anti-tank weapon). If you want to do a pepsi challenge, the twin lascannon setup only costs 15 points more per Razorback. Now, have 5 Razorbacks with twin lascannons shoot at the Wraithknight. It'll take 16 wounds in one volley, and it can't even theoretically kill more than two Razorbacks per turn of the 5, and in the actual game it won't even kill one (it does just 6.22 wounds per turn). In short, it sucks.
There's no angle here. There's just numbers. I'll gladly be proven wrong, but on a surface glance, yes, a lot of units offer a lot more bang for the buck than others, and some mega-models are wildly overpriced.
Even within the Eldar faction, a Wave Serpent with twin bright lance and twin shuriken catapult runs you only just a bit over 150 points. For 500 points if you'd get 3,33 of them you'd have 43 wounds (protected by serpent shield) but the firepower would be better, as would the survivability and utility.
The Wraithknight can tap-dance and get 12 attacks...see my post above.
Ok so I took a look at the reservs in the BRB.
And on narrative play you roll for them as we do now.
But in matched play no mention of a roll.
So do we just pick a turn we want it to arrive?
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.
So the text of the Woods terrain in the Advanced section of the Rulebook reads as follows:
INFANTRY units that are entirely on the base of a wood receive the benefit of cover. If your wood is not on a base, discuss with your opponent what the boundary of the wood is before the battle begins.
OTHER UNITS only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is actually obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit.
Does that mean that if I have a unit on one side of a wood that is shooting at your INFANTRY unit completely on the opposite side of the wood, there is no penalty (as long as I can see models to shoot them)?
Lorex wrote: Ok so I took a look at the reservs in the BRB.
And on narrative play you roll for them as we do now.
But in matched play no mention of a roll.
So do we just pick a turn we want it to arrive?
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.
Yeah my mistake. Yet, it's still nothing when you factor the 502 point price tag. 41 points per attack? Yeah...
The Wraithknight could be overpriced as much as 100 points.
Magnus at 415 points destroys it on turn one, on his own with zero help.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: I think the indexes are a useful stopgap for further play testing and player feedback, sadly the drawback is that those armies that get new codex's last will be quite bland and eventually fall way behind in terms of effectiveness. Given the amount of armies and factions we are probably looking at a good few years before everyone gets the full codex treatment.
I agree with you, but do you mean those who get them ( Codex's) first? Also, remember that points can be updated quicker for blance now, so there is that at least.
Burning Chariot says you can take 3 blue horrors as wargear. Now, taking wounds where I see them, could I apply the wounds to the blue horrors first? Could I then, following the rules of split, turn them into brimstone horrors that join the unit?
I don't see "three blue horrors" listed as wargear anywhere, which is why I'm curious and following this line of thinking.
That makes sense to me. There's no indication that the blue horrors don't behave the way they do in their own data sheet.
Seems good. Adds 6 wounds to the model for only 21 pts.
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.
I will now build a tap dancing Wraithkinight punting a Marine.
Vorian wrote: Scorpions mortal wounds only work on infantry don't they? They aren't going to do much to a knight
Phew, that's much better. Glad I missed that part.
The only thing so far in all the c complaints that has actually seemed odd is the Avenger. I'm convinced that's an error and pretty much everything else should at least wait until a healthy amount of games before the Meta is declared
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.
Yeah my mistake. Yet, it's still nothing when you factor the 502 point price tag. 41 points per attack? Yeah...
The Wraithknight could be overpriced as much as 100 points.
A tac marine with a power fist provides 1 S8 -3 D3 attack for 33 points. With T4 and no invuln.
A terminator gets 2 for 51 points.
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.
Yeah my mistake. Yet, it's still nothing when you factor the 502 point price tag. 41 points per attack? Yeah...
The Wraithknight could be overpriced as much as 100 points.
A tac marine with a power fist provides 1 S8 -3 D3 attack for 33 points. With T4 and no invuln.
A terminator gets 2 for 51 points.
Both with -1 to hit.
Think it over some more...
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Avadar wrote: Doesn't the Tau Plasma Rifle costs 11 versus the Space Marine's Plasma Gun's 13? or am I missing something?
2p difference doesn't justify 1 Strength less
BertBert wrote: Storm of Fire should work with the Mont'Ka Commander ability though, right? It seems like the T'au offensive will be all about that one turn where everything comes together.
Yeah, but the enemy will not wait for me to prepare such magical star conjunction. An entire army cannot be tied to a single (ahem) stratagem!
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Thanks.
You're dead set on not processing anything outside your viewpoint so there isn't much more I can do.
If you can't see the advantages of a T8 wraithknight that can shoot some tanks, charge some infantry, and then walk over that infantry, shoot another tank and charge something else without penalty...well...just don't take it.
I now have 3 Terminator Squads, a squad of Obliterators with attendant warp smith, a squad of Raptors with attendant jump lord and 2 havoc squads who now get to awkwardly not fit in the army at all.
Ah well, since there's no real perks to running specific precise armies yet it means I'm just going to say screw it and throw in a few things like Fabulous Bill. We'll just run Chaos and regret the fact that our army was actually rather fluffy and themed well. They could have literally put a page or a table of Legion (and Chapter) traits in the respective books :(
These are temporary get you by rules. They level set everything (as best as they are able, anyway).
I mean my exalted sorcerers look fairly useless right now - they don't even have any weapon options!
More than that, did anyone really expect Death Guard armies to just be "Chaos Space Marines units with new Poxwalkers, Bloat Drones, etc"?
Look at what we got with the Thousand Sons list. Expect that for Death Guard; new units with maybe a few things here and there crossing over.
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Thanks.
You're dead set on not processing anything outside your viewpoint so there isn't much more I can do.
If you can't see the advantages of a T8 wraithknight that can shoot some tanks, charge some infantry, and then walk over that infantry, shoot another tank and charge something else without penalty...well...just don't take it.
Everything he can do is fine and dandy, it's the points cost I have a problem with. You're refusing to even discuss the points cost, which funnily enough is the balancing factor of every unit in the game. I don't care if Abaddon the Despoiler has 200 attacks at S200 for 200 wounds each, as long as he's priced based on those stats. My argument is that the Wraithknight is overpriced. It neither has the firepower or survivability to justify the price point. I can approach it's points cost from any angle, and it falls short. It neither provides enough wounds, or enough lascannons, or enough close combat attacks, or any combination of the three to get to its price point. Especially in a world where it doesn't fight at full effectiveness when it has the last wound remaining, but degrades immediately starting from turn one. It's also a giant model and a giant target for a plethora of very points efficient ranged weapons in the game that have a very real chance of taking it out in short order in a points efficient fashion.
The fact you don't even entertain the possibility that the price is wrong is pure insanity. You're automatically assuming that the price that the balance team came up with was correct, when the track record from GW shows that sometimes they price units even as much as 40% too high or too low. To me, the only debate is how much it is priced wrong. Is it 100 points too expensive or 50? You're just not the one to debate the subject with.
I now have 3 Terminator Squads, a squad of Obliterators with attendant warp smith, a squad of Raptors with attendant jump lord and 2 havoc squads who now get to awkwardly not fit in the army at all.
Ah well, since there's no real perks to running specific precise armies yet it means I'm just going to say screw it and throw in a few things like Fabulous Bill. We'll just run Chaos and regret the fact that our army was actually rather fluffy and themed well. They could have literally put a page or a table of Legion (and Chapter) traits in the respective books :(
These are temporary get you by rules. They level set everything (as best as they are able, anyway).
I mean my exalted sorcerers look fairly useless right now - they don't even have any weapon options!
More than that, did anyone really expect Death Guard armies to just be "Chaos Space Marines units with new Poxwalkers, Bloat Drones, etc"?
Look at what we got with the Thousand Sons list. Expect that for Death Guard; new units with maybe a few things here and there crossing over.
To be fair, the Thousand Sons list acknowledges that new units have been added since the 3.5 Codex.
The Death Guard list looks like a horrible and bizarre copy past job that forgot Chosen, Havocs and Terminators to say the least.
Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Thanks.
You're dead set on not processing anything outside your viewpoint so there isn't much more I can do.
If you can't see the advantages of a T8 wraithknight that can shoot some tanks, charge some infantry, and then walk over that infantry, shoot another tank and charge something else without penalty...well...just don't take it.
Everything he can do is fine and dandy, it's the points cost I have a problem with. You're refusing to even discuss the points cost, which funnily enough is the balancing factor of every unit in the game. I don't care if Abaddon the Despoiler has 200 attacks at S200 for 200 wounds each, as long as he's priced based on those stats. My argument is that the Wraithknight is overpriced. It neither has the firepower or survivability to justify the price point. I can approach it's points cost from any angle, and it falls short. It neither provides enough wounds, or enough lascannons, or enough close combat attacks, or any combination of the three to get to its price point. Especially in a world where it doesn't fight at full effectiveness when it has the last wound remaining, but degrades immediately starting from turn one. It's also a giant model and a giant target for a plethora of very points efficient ranged weapons in the game that have a very real chance of taking it out in short order in a points efficient fashion.
The fact you don't even entertain the possibility that the price is wrong is pure insanity. You're automatically assuming that the price that the balance team came up with was correct, when the track record from GW shows that sometimes they price units even as much as 40% too high or too low. To me, the only argument is how much it is priced wrong. Is it 100 points too expensive or 50? You're just not the one to debate the subject with.
Cheers.
Gotta be honest, any whining about Eldar units is going to fall on 99% deaf ears. They've had it so good for so long that every unit in their army could be 100 pts overpointed and most peeps would only think "About damn time".
Charax wrote: This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.
Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)
Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)
No Relics
No flavour
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
Just to be clear:
The initial release of Age of Sigmar books(the "Grand Alliance" books) did not have points or options. It was the web lists, rejigged to feature only models still being sold(anything that was no longer available went from it). It then featured the new stuff as well(Stormcast Eternals, Everchosen, etc) and a small collection of the stuff that was in the campaign books.
I do think that you're spot on as to why they've done it this way though. To ensure everyone can at least have their basic lists even if they can't really do much with them.
matched play you have to have a common faction KW across the army!
no more chaos and orks
eldar and tau
etc
This sucks quite a bit. 7th Edition so strongly encouraged cross faction armies that I saw no problem buying, assembling and painting ~750 points of Skitarii, ~1000 points of Necrons, ~750 points of Harlequins, etc. I bought and painted what looked cool, knowing that I could always field them together.
Now, I can't field them together. In fact, I'm not sure that I'll be able to field any ~2k list with a common faction keyword.
Ork army? You get Orks only.
Tau army? Tau only.
Necrons army? Necrons only.
Imperium army? You get Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Astra Militarum, Adepta Sororitas, Officio Assassinorum, Adeptus Telepathica, Imperial Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, etc, etc, etc.
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Thanks.
You're dead set on not processing anything outside your viewpoint so there isn't much more I can do.
If you can't see the advantages of a T8 wraithknight that can shoot some tanks, charge some infantry, and then walk over that infantry, shoot another tank and charge something else without penalty...well...just don't take it.
Everything he can do is fine and dandy, it's the points cost I have a problem with. You're refusing to even discuss the points cost, which funnily enough is the balancing factor of every unit in the game. I don't care if Abaddon the Despoiler has 200 attacks at S200 for 200 wounds each, as long as he's priced based on those stats. My argument is that the Wraithknight is overpriced. It neither has the firepower or survivability to justify the price point. I can approach it's points cost from any angle, and it falls short. It neither provides enough wounds, or enough lascannons, or enough close combat attacks, or any combination of the three to get to its price point. Especially in a world where it doesn't fight at full effectiveness when it has the last wound remaining, but degrades immediately starting from turn one. It's also a giant model and a giant target for a plethora of very points efficient ranged weapons in the game that have a very real chance of taking it out in short order in a points efficient fashion.
The fact you don't even entertain the possibility that the price is wrong is pure insanity. You're automatically assuming that the price that the balance team came up with was correct, when the track record from GW shows that sometimes they price units even as much as 40% too high or too low. To me, the only debate is how much it is priced wrong. Is it 100 points too expensive or 50? You're just not the one to debate the subject with.
Cheers.
You're going in presuming it's incorrect. Which is silly.
The number of attacks is one thing, the ranged potential is another, the durability is another, the fact you can get out of combat and then shoot or charge is another. Then how all those things synergize together is another thing entirely.
Is it too much? Is it right? Is it too little? I don't know and nor do you.
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Thanks.
You're dead set on not processing anything outside your viewpoint so there isn't much more I can do.
If you can't see the advantages of a T8 wraithknight that can shoot some tanks, charge some infantry, and then walk over that infantry, shoot another tank and charge something else without penalty...well...just don't take it.
Everything he can do is fine and dandy, it's the points cost I have a problem with. You're refusing to even discuss the points cost, which funnily enough is the balancing factor of every unit in the game. I don't care if Abaddon the Despoiler has 200 attacks at S200 for 200 wounds each, as long as he's priced based on those stats. My argument is that the Wraithknight is overpriced. It neither has the firepower or survivability to justify the price point. I can approach it's points cost from any angle, and it falls short. It neither provides enough wounds, or enough lascannons, or enough close combat attacks, or any combination of the three to get to its price point. Especially in a world where it doesn't fight at full effectiveness when it has the last wound remaining, but degrades immediately starting from turn one. It's also a giant model and a giant target for a plethora of very points efficient ranged weapons in the game that have a very real chance of taking it out in short order in a points efficient fashion.
The fact you don't even entertain the possibility that the price is wrong is pure insanity. You're automatically assuming that the price that the balance team came up with was correct, when the track record from GW shows that sometimes they price units even as much as 40% too high or too low. To me, the only argument is how much it is priced wrong. Is it 100 points too expensive or 50? You're just not the one to debate the subject with.
Cheers.
Gotta be honest, any whining about Eldar units is going to fall on 99% deaf ears. They've had it so good for so long that every unit in their army could be 100 pts overpointed and most peeps would only think "About damn time".
The funny thing is, I don't own an Eldar army. None of my friends do. I'm not invested in any way in their power level. I'm simply looking at the leaks that we have and at units and their points costs, and trying to figure out a formula in how the points are allocated. It's a pretty simple process that every even remotely competitive 40K gamer has done for every new release. Where's the cheese? What's underpriced? What's overpriced?
To me it seems there's a number of units that are wildly overpriced. Many of them are large models. At this moment nobody seems to care, but eventually they'll do, when the 'OMG LEAKS' wears off and the 'Why does X unit suck so bad' sets in.
Charax wrote: This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.
Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)
Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)
No Relics
No flavour
Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.
They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.
This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.
Just to be clear:
The initial release of Age of Sigmar books(the "Grand Alliance" books) did not have points or options. It was the web lists, rejigged to feature only models still being sold(anything that was no longer available went from it). It then featured the new stuff as well(Stormcast Eternals, Everchosen, etc) and a small collection of the stuff that was in the campaign books.
I do think that you're spot on as to why they've done it this way though. To ensure everyone can at least have their basic lists even if they can't really do much with them.
Right. I should have stated when points were released. I consider that the actual start of AoS, as before that it wasn't really a game we played. (Though tried with the various "point" systems.)
After points came out, armies started to get their specific battletomes with extra stuff in it
I'm pretty disappointed with Nurgle Daemons. Even after reading through most of the other leaks so I could compare survivability and such.
Nurglings seem to be the worst hit, even with how meh they were in the last edition - they seemed to get even worse. They lost 1s and 1T and went up in point cost. I have 21 bases of these suckers and I'm not sure if I'll be able to use them anymore.
Epidimius, I thought would finally figure out a good role, but it seems they forgot about him and made him worthless yet again. To get any bonus you'll have to destroy 3 units first and he doesn't even get the basic bonuses for being a herald.
No cross play between DG and Daemons (or any Chaos and Daemons) has me disapointed as well.
EDIT: ohh, and GUO having the same survivability as a KOS..
ok.
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Thanks.
You're dead set on not processing anything outside your viewpoint so there isn't much more I can do.
If you can't see the advantages of a T8 wraithknight that can shoot some tanks, charge some infantry, and then walk over that infantry, shoot another tank and charge something else without penalty...well...just don't take it.
Everything he can do is fine and dandy, it's the points cost I have a problem with. You're refusing to even discuss the points cost, which funnily enough is the balancing factor of every unit in the game. I don't care if Abaddon the Despoiler has 200 attacks at S200 for 200 wounds each, as long as he's priced based on those stats. My argument is that the Wraithknight is overpriced. It neither has the firepower or survivability to justify the price point. I can approach it's points cost from any angle, and it falls short. It neither provides enough wounds, or enough lascannons, or enough close combat attacks, or any combination of the three to get to its price point. Especially in a world where it doesn't fight at full effectiveness when it has the last wound remaining, but degrades immediately starting from turn one. It's also a giant model and a giant target for a plethora of very points efficient ranged weapons in the game that have a very real chance of taking it out in short order in a points efficient fashion.
The fact you don't even entertain the possibility that the price is wrong is pure insanity. You're automatically assuming that the price that the balance team came up with was correct, when the track record from GW shows that sometimes they price units even as much as 40% too high or too low. To me, the only debate is how much it is priced wrong. Is it 100 points too expensive or 50? You're just not the one to debate the subject with.
Cheers.
You're going in presuming it's incorrect. Which is silly.
The number of attacks is one thing, the ranged potential is another, the durability is another, the fact you can get out of combat and then shoot or charge is another. Then how all those things synergize together is another thing entirely.
Is it too much? Is it right? Is it too little? I don't know and nor do you.
It's silly to presume it's incorrect? How's that? If the possible variation of the points cost is from 1 to let's say 1000 points, there's 1000 different answers of which only one can be correct, and I'm being silly when based on my comparisons with other units I'm making the assumption that the exact figure of 502 points might not be the correct one?
You're right that I don't know what the correct number is, but I'm 99,9% certain that it isn't 502.
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Bingo. You want a narrative army? Play a narrative game. You want a balanced army? You are constrained by rules via matched play.
GW probably realized they couldn't have both without lots of issues.
So they restricted Tau and Eldar from hanging out, but Imperium and Chaos keywords are hunky dory? There's nothing about "Imperium" that makes things easy to balance. "Chaos" isn't as bad, but still lumps in more units than the others. Then if you include Forgeworld, oh boy...
They shoehorned narrative play into matched play in order to let all the Imperium guys ally together, but then used that same argument to not let the other Factions do the same. Dumb.
matched play you have to have a common faction KW across the army!
no more chaos and orks
eldar and tau
etc
This sucks quite a bit. 7th Edition so strongly encouraged cross faction armies that I saw no problem buying, assembling and painting ~750 points of Skitarii, ~1000 points of Necrons, ~750 points of Harlequins, etc. I bought and painted what looked cool, knowing that I could always field them together.
Now, I can't field them together. In fact, I'm not sure that I'll be able to field any ~2k list with a common faction keyword.
Ork army? You get Orks only.
Tau army? Tau only.
Necrons army? Necrons only.
Imperium army? You get Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Astra Militarum, Adepta Sororitas, Officio Assassinorum, Adeptus Telepathica, Imperial Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, etc, etc, etc.
That's totally fair and balanced.
I call shenanigans.
You left out all the stuff chaos gets. But I don't see a problem with this. If you want to buy what you think looks cool, they have a game called Shadow War for that/ Kill team/ Ruins of Herald Kill Team. It was split to stop the broken combos people often did by smashing the best of the best into one army. I much prefer the new way its separated.
Also that's why there is open play and narrative play.
The Avatar...at a glance, sucks ass for his power level --- and has two oddly worded special rules which provide the same thing? (he has two things listing a 5+ invuln. save, though one blocks mortal wounds). The Avatar looks like he'll be a chump to massed basic shooting instead of heavy weapons.
Don't forget, they cannot target the Avatar directly unless he is closest, for he is a Character with less than 10 wounds.
Plus those 2 'same rules': 1 is just an invul save, the other is a 5+ ignore mortal wounds (vs which invul saves cannot be taken). So basically it guarantees that the Avatar will always have a 5+ vs any wound.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
I completely disagree, there is a lot of good stuff in there, and the best part is that they're one army now and you can run what you want
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Bingo. You want a narrative army? Play a narrative game. You want a balanced army? You are constrained by rules via matched play.
GW probably realized they couldn't have both without lots of issues.
So they restricted Tau and Eldar from hanging out, but Imperium and Chaos keywords are hunky dory? There's nothing about "Imperium" that makes things easy to balance. "Chaos" isn't as bad, but still lumps in more units than the others. Then if you include Forgeworld, oh boy...
They shoehorned narrative play into matched play in order to let all the Imperium guys ally together, but then used that same argument to not let the other Factions do the same. Dumb.
Imperial forces consistently work together. Chaos too. Xenos? Not so much. Not enough to justify letting them consistently pair outside of narrative. While the Imperium and Chaos are very consistent in their pairings.
Don't be salty. It wasn't dumb, it was likely meant to curb stupid combos (be it for fluff or balance) in matched play.
Swara wrote: No cross play between DG and Daemons (or any Chaos and Daemons) has me disapointed as well.
What do you mean? You can have an army of both under the Chaos keyword or <God> keyword.
I'm surprised you're not mainly complaining about Nurgle units no longer getting Deep Strike and so they have to waddle across the board.
All bonuses (tallyman, spells, auras) are all sub faction specific and not god specific.
It looks like I'll have to forget Tallyman and play a DG and Nurgle Daemons now.
As far as waddling, I'm used to that and played a drone heavy army.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the big picture, but I'll see...
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Bingo. You want a narrative army? Play a narrative game. You want a balanced army? You are constrained by rules via matched play.
GW probably realized they couldn't have both without lots of issues.
So they restricted Tau and Eldar from hanging out, but Imperium and Chaos keywords are hunky dory? There's nothing about "Imperium" that makes things easy to balance. "Chaos" isn't as bad, but still lumps in more units than the others. Then if you include Forgeworld, oh boy...
They shoehorned narrative play into matched play in order to let all the Imperium guys ally together, but then used that same argument to not let the other Factions do the same. Dumb.
Imperial forces consistently work together. Chaos too. Xenos? Not so much. Not enough to justify letting them consistently pair outside of narrative. While the Imperium and Chaos are very consistent in their pairings.
Don't be salty. It wasn't dumb, it was likely meant to curb stupid combos (be it for fluff or balance) in matched play.
I was pointing out that you can't say both "Narrative allows Imperium to ally together" and "There's no room for narrative in matched play" together with a straight face.
"The story of the upcoming Dark Imperium box set is set in Ultramar "
That's really strange that the Dark Imperium box set isn't set in y'know, the Dark Imperium
In general, I like what I'm seeing. I am also enjoying seeing people finally realize that this really is the Sigmarization of 40k and what that means for their army. It's exactly what I hoped 8th edition would be and I am loving what I'm seeing in the index pages I've seen so far.
As well as this:
I know this sort of thing drives some people mad, but it's right up my alley. I have this crazy notion that people should game with like minded individuals and really work on the social side of the hobby. There's a reasonable selection of terrain already defined including LOS blocking hills, so this shouldn't be too hard.
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Bingo. You want a narrative army? Play a narrative game. You want a balanced army? You are constrained by rules via matched play.
GW probably realized they couldn't have both without lots of issues.
So they restricted Tau and Eldar from hanging out, but Imperium and Chaos keywords are hunky dory? There's nothing about "Imperium" that makes things easy to balance. "Chaos" isn't as bad, but still lumps in more units than the others. Then if you include Forgeworld, oh boy...
They shoehorned narrative play into matched play in order to let all the Imperium guys ally together, but then used that same argument to not let the other Factions do the same. Dumb.
Imperial forces consistently work together. Chaos too. Xenos? Not so much. Not enough to justify letting them consistently pair outside of narrative. While the Imperium and Chaos are very consistent in their pairings.
Don't be salty. It wasn't dumb, it was likely meant to curb stupid combos (be it for fluff or balance) in matched play.
I hated those Tau/Eldar alliances as much as the next guy, but to be fair, it's in no way balanced that Imperial forces get to mix and match from two dozen sources while a xenos force is stuck with 1 source. I like it from a background and narrative perspective, but there's bound to be balance problems.
Swara wrote: No cross play between DG and Daemons (or any Chaos and Daemons) has me disapointed as well.
What do you mean? You can have an army of both under the Chaos keyword or <God> keyword.
I'm surprised you're not mainly complaining about Nurgle units no longer getting Deep Strike and so they have to waddle across the board.
All bonuses (tallyman, spells, auras) are all sub faction specific and not god specific.
It looks like I'll have to forget Tallyman and play a DG and Nurgle Daemons now.
As far as waddling, I'm used to that and played a drone heavy army.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the big picture, but I'll see...
Ah, right. The Daemon Prince at least works for both DG and Nurgle, and the Daemon HQs buff CSM units with the Daemon keyword, but yeah, the CSM Lords and such don't benefit the Daemon guys.
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Bingo. You want a narrative army? Play a narrative game. You want a balanced army? You are constrained by rules via matched play.
GW probably realized they couldn't have both without lots of issues.
So they restricted Tau and Eldar from hanging out, but Imperium and Chaos keywords are hunky dory? There's nothing about "Imperium" that makes things easy to balance. "Chaos" isn't as bad, but still lumps in more units than the others. Then if you include Forgeworld, oh boy...
They shoehorned narrative play into matched play in order to let all the Imperium guys ally together, but then used that same argument to not let the other Factions do the same. Dumb.
Well actually yeah, there is. Many of the Imperium things affect specific keywords.
Example?
Techpriest Enginseers.
Their "Master of Machines" rule only applies to <Forge World> or Astra Militarum keyworded vehicles.
Guard officers can only issue Orders to units with the same <Regiment>.
Etc
Etc
Am I the only one who doesn't understand the faction rule? Either they must all be imperium or they must all be Adeptus Astartes... but all Adeptus Astartes models are Imperium anyway, so that doesn't mean anything. So does this mean you could have a Blood Angel captain lead a detachment of Silent Sisters, Guardsmen, and Black Templars? A Commissar leading a Ravenwing army?
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
I completely disagree, there is a lot of good stuff in there, and the best part is that they're one army now and you can run what you want
What good stuff that I didn't mention? The only good things there are the things that were good to begin with + ostriches.
You find other ineffective fighters to prove the point that yet another isn't? Just tell me if you went through every unit in the game and those two were the best ones you could find, and then we can continue this conversation.
Thanks.
You're dead set on not processing anything outside your viewpoint so there isn't much more I can do.
If you can't see the advantages of a T8 wraithknight that can shoot some tanks, charge some infantry, and then walk over that infantry, shoot another tank and charge something else without penalty...well...just don't take it.
Everything he can do is fine and dandy, it's the points cost I have a problem with. You're refusing to even discuss the points cost, which funnily enough is the balancing factor of every unit in the game. I don't care if Abaddon the Despoiler has 200 attacks at S200 for 200 wounds each, as long as he's priced based on those stats. My argument is that the Wraithknight is overpriced. It neither has the firepower or survivability to justify the price point. I can approach it's points cost from any angle, and it falls short. It neither provides enough wounds, or enough lascannons, or enough close combat attacks, or any combination of the three to get to its price point. Especially in a world where it doesn't fight at full effectiveness when it has the last wound remaining, but degrades immediately starting from turn one. It's also a giant model and a giant target for a plethora of very points efficient ranged weapons in the game that have a very real chance of taking it out in short order in a points efficient fashion.
The fact you don't even entertain the possibility that the price is wrong is pure insanity. You're automatically assuming that the price that the balance team came up with was correct, when the track record from GW shows that sometimes they price units even as much as 40% too high or too low. To me, the only debate is how much it is priced wrong. Is it 100 points too expensive or 50? You're just not the one to debate the subject with.
Cheers.
You're going in presuming it's incorrect. Which is silly.
The number of attacks is one thing, the ranged potential is another, the durability is another, the fact you can get out of combat and then shoot or charge is another. Then how all those things synergize together is another thing entirely.
Is it too much? Is it right? Is it too little? I don't know and nor do you.
It's silly to presume it's incorrect? How's that? If the possible variation of the points cost is from 1 to let's say 1000 points, there's 1000 different answers of which only one can be correct, and I'm being silly when based on my comparisons with other units I'm making the assumption that the exact figure of 502 points might not be the correct one?
You're right that I don't know what the correct number is, but I'm 99,9% certain that it isn't 502.
Obviously there isn't going to be an exact number that is "correct". It'll be worth more or less depending on what it's facing or what it's in an army with.
It is also only an opinion and people will always see it very differently.
There will be a range where it's "not too bad" and the majority of people will accept that it's ok..
It's silly to think they've got it wrong because they are speaking from a place of having used it in many games and you are not.
Of course they could have got it spectacularly wrong, but we don't know and just looking at how many attacks per point it's got is meaningless.
Scylla wrote: <snip> does this mean you could have a Blood Angel captain lead a detachment of Silent Sisters, Guardsmen, and Black Templars? A Commissar leading a Ravenwing army?
So I was super stoked about 8th myself until I saw the DA rules. While the generic buff to deathwing (due to immunity to the now more important morale) and terminators is nice, I'm guessing the knights are a bit of a wash. More killy, but less survivable (I was hoping for either t5 when the unit contains x or more or 3w). The loss of stubborn and OW bonus hurts (though could be mitigated through forthcoming strategems). The ravenwing though hit hit super hard with the nerf bat. Admittedly the rerollable jink nonsense had to go, but jink being a 5++ after advance combined with loss of hit and run and the new ap system means they're pretty much just marine bikes 95% of the time.
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Bingo. You want a narrative army? Play a narrative game. You want a balanced army? You are constrained by rules via matched play.
GW probably realized they couldn't have both without lots of issues.
So they restricted Tau and Eldar from hanging out, but Imperium and Chaos keywords are hunky dory? There's nothing about "Imperium" that makes things easy to balance. "Chaos" isn't as bad, but still lumps in more units than the others. Then if you include Forgeworld, oh boy...
They shoehorned narrative play into matched play in order to let all the Imperium guys ally together, but then used that same argument to not let the other Factions do the same. Dumb.
Imperial forces consistently work together. Chaos too. Xenos? Not so much. Not enough to justify letting them consistently pair outside of narrative. While the Imperium and Chaos are very consistent in their pairings.
Don't be salty. It wasn't dumb, it was likely meant to curb stupid combos (be it for fluff or balance) in matched play.
It stops xenos combos, but imperial and chaos?
fF they really wanted to limit combos, they should limit to having the same faction keywords. So no SM and IG playing together in matched play
Scylla wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the faction rule? Either they must all be imperium or they must all be Adeptus Astartes... but all Adeptus Astartes models are Imperium anyway, so that doesn't mean anything. So does this mean you could have a Blood Angel captain lead a detachment of Silent Sisters, Guardsmen, and Black Templars? A Commissar leading a Ravenwing army?
yes, yes you can!
The reason they have multiple faction keywords is that there might be buffs that a unit has which only effects those faction keywords
For army and detachment composition purposes you literally need to have one faction keyword consistent through every unit.
Like i said earlier cypher is imperium, chaos and fallen so you can run cypher in a dark angels army
Its not all CHAOS AND IMPERIUM WIN!!!
Genestealer cults and tyranids can now mix it up freely
As can all three eldar races
It stops xenos combos, but imperial and chaos?
fF they really wanted to limit combos, they should limit to having the same faction keywords. So no SM and IG playing together in matched play
You mean like how Guard characters can basically only affect Guard characters or how Marine characters affect Marine characters?
Scylla wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the faction rule? Either they must all be imperium or they must all be Adeptus Astartes... but all Adeptus Astartes models are Imperium anyway, so that doesn't mean anything. So does this mean you could have a Blood Angel captain lead a detachment of Silent Sisters, Guardsmen, and Black Templars? A Commissar leading a Ravenwing army?
yes, yes you can!
The reason they have multiple faction keywords is that there might be buffs that a unit has which only effects those faction keywords
For army and detachment composition purposes you literally need to have one faction keyword consistent through every unit.
Like i said earlier cypher is imperium, chaos and fallen so you can run cypher in a dark angels army
Unless the 'Dark Angels' keyword says otherwise...
If I remember right, the 40k Facebook page noted that you have to declare all of the attacks for a unit before rolling any dice.
This section of the rulebook seems to indicate that is NOT the case. Thoughts?
RESOLVE ATTACKS: Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:
It stops xenos combos, but imperial and chaos?
fF they really wanted to limit combos, they should limit to having the same faction keywords. So no SM and IG playing together in matched play
You mean like how Guard characters can basically only affect Guard characters or how Marine characters affect Marine characters?
Man, if only they had thought of that...
Oh wait!
That is there, obviously.
What remains to be seen, however, is if there is any combo of units that is more powerful than the bonuses provided by those characters without relying on those synergies.
On this we will need to wait and see.
On the silly side, however, we can now have Custodes being ordered around by a junior officer. xD
Scylla wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the faction rule? Either they must all be imperium or they must all be Adeptus Astartes... but all Adeptus Astartes models are Imperium anyway, so that doesn't mean anything. So does this mean you could have a Blood Angel captain lead a detachment of Silent Sisters, Guardsmen, and Black Templars? A Commissar leading a Ravenwing army?
yes, yes you can!
The reason they have multiple faction keywords is that there might be buffs that a unit has which only effects those faction keywords
For army and detachment composition purposes you literally need to have one faction keyword consistent through every unit.
Like i said earlier cypher is imperium, chaos and fallen so you can run cypher in a dark angels army
Unless the 'Dark Angels' keyword says otherwise...
Scylla wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the faction rule? Either they must all be imperium or they must all be Adeptus Astartes... but all Adeptus Astartes models are Imperium anyway, so that doesn't mean anything. So does this mean you could have a Blood Angel captain lead a detachment of Silent Sisters, Guardsmen, and Black Templars? A Commissar leading a Ravenwing army?
yes, yes you can!
The reason they have multiple faction keywords is that there might be buffs that a unit has which only effects those faction keywords
For army and detachment composition purposes you literally need to have one faction keyword consistent through every unit.
Like i said earlier cypher is imperium, chaos and fallen so you can run cypher in a dark angels army
Unless the 'Dark Angels' keyword says otherwise...
It stops xenos combos, but imperial and chaos?
fF they really wanted to limit combos, they should limit to having the same faction keywords. So no SM and IG playing together in matched play
You mean like how Guard characters can basically only affect Guard characters or how Marine characters affect Marine characters?
Man, if only they had thought of that...
Oh wait!
This here is the crux of it - having different factions play together wasn't in and of itself the problem, it was that combinations of those units from different armies created effects that were greater than the sum of their parts.
So the change is that, while you can still field armies with mixed Imperial allies, you won't be seeing things like Azrael buffing a huge unit of conscripts anymore.
Limiting most armies to three detachments is interesting. I was under the assumption that you would be able to add additional units as auxiliary support detachments and the penalty was -1 Command Point. It looks like if I want to take a Lord of War and a Fortification I'm left with one detachment for the bulk of the army (unless Fortification Networks don't count as detachments because they don't have the word 'detachment')
Oaka wrote: Limiting most armies to three detachments is interesting. I was under the assumption that you would be able to add additional units as auxiliary support detachments and the penalty was -1 Command Point. It looks like if I want to take a Lord of War and a Fortification I'm left with one detachment for the bulk of the army (unless Fortification Networks don't count as detachments because they don't have the word 'detachment')
That's suggested limits for Organised play, not rules for Matched play in general.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
I completely disagree, there is a lot of good stuff in there, and the best part is that they're one army now and you can run what you want
What good stuff that I didn't mention? The only good things there are the things that were good to begin with + ostriches.
Kataphrons are still fine, skitarii guys are fine, rust stalkers are fine, dunecrawlers, kastellan and even the staff priests got good/better. Our sniper rifles also give out mortal wounds, you're comparing apples to oranges by comparing galvanic rifles to scout sniper rifles; they're bolt gun equivalents but better.
Cantles are no worse than other army wide abilities now in 8th
Grav cannons are still good, plasma kataphrons are very scary now, we've basically got army wide ignore cover, even Icarus arrays arent horrible now with no flyers. And Fulgurite Electro-Priests, holy crap did you look at them? They're crazy good.
The only unit that really got noticably worse are infiltrators, but their point reduction along with reduction of rust stalkers aint bad
Really disappointed that now we have everything GSC appear to have been completely gutted.
Only positives are the Rock Drill and being able to ally with Imperial Guard in match play(sorely needed for Anti Armour now they've lost their primary mode of movement + weapon nerfs).
Eyjio wrote: I can make a marine list which out-shoots, outlives and outmaneuvers any of the Necron lists I've tried to make. For ****s sake, this is depressing. Maybe I'll wake up and it'll all be a nightmare...
You being unable to make good lists isn't the game's fault.
Feel free to try if you think I'm wrong. Marines do anything Necrons do but better. It's absolutely a fault with the game, the points are too high for necron AT - they cannot deal with big models at all. No other faction pays 75 points for 1 lascannon shot, where that's the cheapest possible option they have.
While I might not completely agree with the base assertion that "marines do it all better" - lack of readily accessible AT IS indeed one of the traits of the Necrons - has been for several years.
This has been countered by Gauss - being able to hurt anything on a six. This was not a "freebie" or "perk" of the necrons - this was a design choice they needed.
now that everyone basically this (wound on 6) necrons got instead an AP bonus.
This does not really translate as well as other armies heavy attack options. This is not a complaint - just an observation from someone familiar with the play of several armies....
Oaka wrote: Limiting most armies to three detachments is interesting. I was under the assumption that you would be able to add additional units as auxiliary support detachments and the penalty was -1 Command Point. It looks like if I want to take a Lord of War and a Fortification I'm left with one detachment for the bulk of the army (unless Fortification Networks don't count as detachments because they don't have the word 'detachment')
That's suggested limits for Organised play, not rules for Matched play in general.
Where is the three detachment rule stated? I've been catching up and admittedly haven't followed every image gallery link for each faction but the pic on the last page didn't mention detachments but rather keywords/factions. It's not that I doubt you both but rather I'm just curious as to what else I missed.
It stops xenos combos, but imperial and chaos?
fF they really wanted to limit combos, they should limit to having the same faction keywords. So no SM and IG playing together in matched play
You mean like how Guard characters can basically only affect Guard characters or how Marine characters affect Marine characters?
Man, if only they had thought of that...
Oh wait!
This here is the crux of it - having different factions play together wasn't in and of itself the problem, it was that combinations of those units from different armies created effects that were greater than the sum of their parts.
So the change is that, while you can still field armies with mixed Imperial allies, you won't be seeing things like Azrael buffing a huge unit of conscripts anymore.
BUT...
In a 2000 point limit game, you can effectively play a solid 1000 point Space Marines army standing next to a solid 1000 point Guard army. With Xenos, you don't have that option. I can't field 1000 points of Necrons next to 1000 points of Tau. It's all or nothing. 2000 Necrons or 2000 Tau.
Feels very much like a slap in the face after pushing cross faction armies so hard.
flakpanzer wrote: If I remember right, the 40k Facebook page noted that you have to declare all of the attacks for a unit before rolling any dice.
This section of the rulebook seems to indicate that is NOT the case. Thoughts?
RESOLVE ATTACKS: Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:
Declare intent then resolve each attack one at a time.
The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. You can still resolve one at a time if you've declared targets already.
Everything he can do is fine and dandy, it's the points cost I have a problem with. You're refusing to even discuss the points cost, which funnily enough is the balancing factor of every unit in the game. I don't care if Abaddon the Despoiler has 200 attacks at S200 for 200 wounds each, as long as he's priced based on those stats. My argument is that the Wraithknight is overpriced. It neither has the firepower or survivability to justify the price point. I can approach it's points cost from any angle, and it falls short. It neither provides enough wounds, or enough lascannons, or enough close combat attacks, or any combination of the three to get to its price point. Especially in a world where it doesn't fight at full effectiveness when it has the last wound remaining, but degrades immediately starting from turn one. It's also a giant model and a giant target for a plethora of very points efficient ranged weapons in the game that have a very real chance of taking it out in short order in a points efficient fashion.
The fact you don't even entertain the possibility that the price is wrong is pure insanity. You're automatically assuming that the price that the balance team came up with was correct, when the track record from GW shows that sometimes they price units even as much as 40% too high or too low. To me, the only debate is how much it is priced wrong. Is it 100 points too expensive or 50? You're just not the one to debate the subject with.
Cheers.
Right, so you accuse me of not entertaining the possibility, when you don't entertain the opposite possibility.
Here's an easy scenario -- WK with glaive.
My turn
I start at over 24".
Their turn
Move and shoot for 5 wounds.
My turn
Move, run with CP, and charge with CP.
Use my pile-in to get 2 or 3 RBs into combat - quite easy with such a huge base. Lose 0.33 from overwatch.
Put 3 attacks on one and kill it. The other attack will do 3.3.
Their turn
Retreat and fire with 4. 5 wounds. Still not half.
My turn
Charge again.
Kill another and wound another
Their turn
Retreat and fire with 3. 4 wounds. At half.
My turn
Charge again.
Kill another and lock one.
Their turn
Retreat and fire with 2. 2.7 wounds. Still half.
My turn
Charge again.
Kill another and lock one.
Their turn
Retreat and fire with 1. 1.3 wounds. Might be in the next bracket.
My turn
Charge again.
Wound one and lock both. Game over.
There you have it. Equal points and I didn't even have a gun.
Points to consider:
1) The razorbacks can retreat at the loss of hits, but they all need to be very close to all be able to get shots in making them vulnerable to getting looped into a charge.
2) The WK can easily deploy to a flank and deny most of the RBs from shooting at it and with the WC version do considerable damage itself.
3) The WK benefits far more from a force multiplier like Fortune - which it is eligible to get.
4) I didn't even account for RBs degrading.
In a 2000 point limit game, you can effectively play a solid 1000 point Space Marines army standing next to a solid 1000 point Guard army. With Xenos, you don't have that option. I can't field 1000 points of Necrons next to 1000 points of Tau. It's all or nothing. 2000 Necrons or 2000 Tau.
Feels very much like a slap in the face after pushing cross faction armies so hard.
That's my point. Imperials and Chaos will be able to 'soothe' their problems with a bit from another detachment, while xenos (except eldar, of course) can't.
In a 2000 point limit game, you can effectively play a solid 1000 point Space Marines army standing next to a solid 1000 point Guard army. With Xenos, you don't have that option. I can't field 1000 points of Necrons next to 1000 points of Tau. It's all or nothing. 2000 Necrons or 2000 Tau.
Feels very much like a slap in the face after pushing cross faction armies so hard.
That's my point. Imperials and Chaos will be able to 'soothe' their problems with a bit from another detachment, while xenos (except eldar, of course) can't.
Im Pretty sure your space elves can ally with your other darker space elves or the funny elves
but thats pretty much how its been. Necron and Nids pretty much were always all or nothing. besides that fluff abortion with blood cron bro fisting.
Tau seems to have gotten fethed over but they internally do a lot well anyway so i dont see an issue. actually Tau and Necrons can both field fantastic shooting and assault chaff or otherwise can get out of combat and shoot at danger close range with minimal to no penalties.
So, to clarify, there are effectively only 7 armies in the game now? Everything is a sub-faction of one of these 7?
1. Imperium
2. Chaos
3. Eldar
4. Necrons
5. Tau
6. Orks
7. Tyranids
Seems like Tau, Necrons and Orks are boned on unit options due to having ZERO sub-faction options. Even Nids get to pick between regular Nid and GSC units.
Where is the three detachment rule stated? I've been catching up and admittedly haven't followed every image gallery link for each faction but the pic on the last page didn't mention detachments but rather keywords/factions. It's not that I doubt you both but rather I'm just curious as to what else I missed.
While it's just a suggestion for tournaments, these rules were heavily play-tested by the major tournament organizers, yes?
flakpanzer wrote: If I remember right, the 40k Facebook page noted that you have to declare all of the attacks for a unit before rolling any dice.
This section of the rulebook seems to indicate that is NOT the case. Thoughts?
RESOLVE ATTACKS: Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:
Declare intent then resolve each attack one at a time.
The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. You can still resolve one at a time if you've declared targets already.
Kriswall wrote: So, to clarify, there are effectively only 7 armies in the game now? Everything is a sub-faction of one of these 7?
1. Imperium
2. Chaos
3. Eldar
4. Necrons
5. Tau
6. Orks
7. Tyranids
Seems like Tau, Necrons and Orks are boned on unit options due to having ZERO sub-faction options. Even Nids get to pick between regular Nid and GSC units.
In a 2000 point limit game, you can effectively play a solid 1000 point Space Marines army standing next to a solid 1000 point Guard army. With Xenos, you don't have that option. I can't field 1000 points of Necrons next to 1000 points of Tau. It's all or nothing. 2000 Necrons or 2000 Tau.
Feels very much like a slap in the face after pushing cross faction armies so hard.
That's my point. Imperials and Chaos will be able to 'soothe' their problems with a bit from another detachment, while xenos (except eldar, of course) can't.
Sorry, Kriswall - but that example isn't going to get any sympathy from me!
Here, I get that you want to be able to play what you want to play, but if you're just doing your own thing anyways in terms of army structure, then why be concerned about what the "standard" rules are in the first place?
It may seem unfair somehow but really it's not, not to mention it's helping rid the game of some of the worst offenders in terms of antifun mechanics, and given the context of the setting it makes sense. I mean... I don't think that Bolt Action would be any better by having the rules include armies that mix Germans and Russians together.
Where is the three detachment rule stated? I've been catching up and admittedly haven't followed every image gallery link for each faction but the pic on the last page didn't mention detachments but rather keywords/factions. It's not that I doubt you both but rather I'm just curious as to what else I missed.
While it's just a suggestion for tournaments, these rules were heavily play-tested by the major tournament organizers, yes?
Assuming decent amount of cover and terrain... maybe.
4x4 game in 2 hours for 1k points seems kinda long.
Kriswall wrote: So, to clarify, there are effectively only 7 armies in the game now? Everything is a sub-faction of one of these 7?
1. Imperium
2. Chaos
3. Eldar
4. Necrons
5. Tau
6. Orks
7. Tyranids
Seems like Tau, Necrons and Orks are boned on unit options due to having ZERO sub-faction options. Even Nids get to pick between regular Nid and GSC units.
I don't know what you mean by this?
GSC have their own army list, seperate from Nids.
They share the Tyranids Faction keyword, so they are effectively both sub-factions of the overarching Tyranids faction. In other words, I can take a Hive Tyrant AND some GSC units in the same army.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Nothing we shouldn't be expecting already, to be honest. This would be the simplest way to achieve the desired streamlining and keeping tabs on balance.
My only true pet peeve with this edition is the removal of wound allocation to the nearest model in the shooting phase.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
You took a gamble expecting everything to fit no problems. dont think thats Gee Dubs fault.
you could always do a second detachment of smelly heretics in green.
Eyjio wrote: I can make a marine list which out-shoots, outlives and outmaneuvers any of the Necron lists I've tried to make. For ****s sake, this is depressing. Maybe I'll wake up and it'll all be a nightmare...
You being unable to make good lists isn't the game's fault.
Feel free to try if you think I'm wrong. Marines do anything Necrons do but better. It's absolutely a fault with the game, the points are too high for necron AT - they cannot deal with big models at all. No other faction pays 75 points for 1 lascannon shot, where that's the cheapest possible option they have.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Read the lists in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook and your reaction would be similar. These are get-you-by lists until the full Codexes come out for each army. For that, they're actually much better than the 3rd ed. ones were.
In a 2000 point limit game, you can effectively play a solid 1000 point Space Marines army standing next to a solid 1000 point Guard army. With Xenos, you don't have that option. I can't field 1000 points of Necrons next to 1000 points of Tau. It's all or nothing. 2000 Necrons or 2000 Tau.
Feels very much like a slap in the face after pushing cross faction armies so hard.
That's my point. Imperials and Chaos will be able to 'soothe' their problems with a bit from another detachment, while xenos (except eldar, of course) can't.
Sorry, Kriswall - but that example isn't going to get any sympathy from me!
Here, I get that you want to be able to play what you want to play, but if you're just doing your own thing anyways in terms of army structure, then why be concerned about what the "standard" rules are in the first place?
It may seem unfair somehow but really it's not, not to mention it's helping rid the game of some of the worst offenders in terms of antifun mechanics, and given the context of the setting it makes sense. I mean... I don't think that Bolt Action would be any better by having the rules include armies that mix Germans and Russians together.
I'm not "doing my own thing". Armies that were legal for 'standard games' (~1850pts) of 7th edition are no longer legal in similarly sized 8th edition matched play games. That sucks.
I'm allowed to be upset that the models I bought, assembled and painted can no longer be used for average sized 'points' games unless I go out and buy a ton of new models. As an example, the ~700 points of painted Necrons I have are worthless for 'standard matched play' unless I go out and buy/assemble more than 1000 extra points.
It stops xenos combos, but imperial and chaos?
fF they really wanted to limit combos, they should limit to having the same faction keywords. So no SM and IG playing together in matched play
You mean like how Guard characters can basically only affect Guard characters or how Marine characters affect Marine characters?
Man, if only they had thought of that...
Oh wait!
This here is the crux of it - having different factions play together wasn't in and of itself the problem, it was that combinations of those units from different armies created effects that were greater than the sum of their parts.
So the change is that, while you can still field armies with mixed Imperial allies, you won't be seeing things like Azrael buffing a huge unit of conscripts anymore.
BUT...
In a 2000 point limit game, you can effectively play a solid 1000 point Space Marines army standing next to a solid 1000 point Guard army. With Xenos, you don't have that option. I can't field 1000 points of Necrons next to 1000 points of Tau. It's all or nothing. 2000 Necrons or 2000 Tau.
Feels very much like a slap in the face after pushing cross faction armies so hard.
I guess if your whole point in playing was to cheese it out? Or have stupid formations? (same thing really...) It was a vector for them to sell more. "Take whatever and play!" Seems great, but makes the game broken and terrible.
Again, that is why there is Open play, and Narrative play. Take what you want still. Anyone complaining that they cant take their OP combo of races for matched play clearly doesn't care about balance or the future of the game.
your 700 points of necrons need 300 points more and there, you can play a 1k game.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Read the lists in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook and your reaction would be similar. These are get-you-by lists until the full Codexes come out for each army. For that, they're actually much better than the 3rd ed. ones were.
*looks at untouched 2yr old wfb get you by lists and sniggers*
Where is the three detachment rule stated? I've been catching up and admittedly haven't followed every image gallery link for each faction but the pic on the last page didn't mention detachments but rather keywords/factions. It's not that I doubt you both but rather I'm just curious as to what else I missed.
While it's just a suggestion for tournaments, these rules were heavily play-tested by the major tournament organizers, yes?
2 Hours seems long for a 4x4. I wonder if they have anything for Power play? 250 power on a XxX lasts X hours, etc
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Read the lists in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook and your reaction would be similar. These are get-you-by lists until the full Codexes come out for each army. For that, they're actually much better than the 3rd ed. ones were.
These leaks look like they're coming from the real books though, not printouts or WD pages. Unless you mean the bigger books are stopgap and proper codexes as we know them now are gonna come later? that sort of ruins the whole anthology codex approach to me.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
I completely disagree, there is a lot of good stuff in there, and the best part is that they're one army now and you can run what you want
What good stuff that I didn't mention? The only good things there are the things that were good to begin with + ostriches.
Kataphrons are still fine, skitarii guys are fine, rust stalkers are fine, dunecrawlers, kastellan and even the staff priests got good/better. Our sniper rifles also give out mortal wounds, you're comparing apples to oranges by comparing galvanic rifles to scout sniper rifles; they're bolt gun equivalents but better.
Cantles are no worse than other army wide abilities now in 8th
Grav cannons are still good, plasma kataphrons are very scary now, we've basically got army wide ignore cover, even Icarus arrays arent horrible now with no flyers. And Fulgurite Electro-Priests, holy crap did you look at them? They're crazy good.
The only unit that really got noticably worse are infiltrators, but their point reduction along with reduction of rust stalkers aint bad
Vanguards/rangers are now leadership 6-7 compared to 8-9 like they used to be. Along with the fact that they can't hide behind techpriests anymore that's a huge survivability nerf. Not to mention that galvanic rifles used to be AP4 which translated as AP -1 into 8th edition. But not for AdMech. Because apparently magoses are all much dumber than thechmarines and can't create a good weapon, so we only get AP -1 on 6s to wound.
Destroyers are now roughly on the same power level while becoming significantly more expensive. Plasma cannon is better but grav is still generally better overall. They are also a 3-wounds model that kill themselves on plasma overcharge.
Breachers are also more expensive while becoming much worse at killing vehicles - heavy arc rifle is awful and torsion cannon is a poor man's multimelta.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators lost their FNP, lost their movement bonus + ruststalkers lost their AP 2 on second turn along with grenades and infiltrators lost stealth, shredding pistols and their aura is now pretty much useless. What's the point of making a unit cheaper while removing special rules if special rules was the whole point of that unit?
Ignore cover is not nearly as powerful, since it's just an addition to and armor save and the only guys that get it are vanguards and rangers which are going to die in droves now.
Electropriests are still a slow moving bunch of T3 guys with a garbage save in an army with no transports, so they are still going to get mowed through by any capable shooting.
Duncrawlers and robots were good. They are still good. Nothing has changed.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
Where is the three detachment rule stated? I've been catching up and admittedly haven't followed every image gallery link for each faction but the pic on the last page didn't mention detachments but rather keywords/factions. It's not that I doubt you both but rather I'm just curious as to what else I missed.
Spoiler:
While it's just a suggestion for tournaments, these rules were heavily play-tested by the major tournament organizers, yes?
Cool, thanks for the pic. It definitely feels lifted right out of the ITC playbook as iirc 3 detachments in a "standard" game played on a 6x4 table is what they use with the current ruleset.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Read the lists in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook and your reaction would be similar. These are get-you-by lists until the full Codexes come out for each army. For that, they're actually much better than the 3rd ed. ones were.
These leaks look like they're coming from the real books though, not printouts or WD pages. Unless you mean the bigger books are stopgap and proper codexes as we know them now are gonna come later? that sort of ruins the whole anthology codex approach to me.
Stopgaps are exactly what the Indexes are - there's a reason why they're Indexes and not Codexes.
Not really. It's nice to have confirmation on little things that looked too good in the leaks, like Reanimation Protocols can indeed bring back that Necron Warrior who died turn one on turn five, etc.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Like I said be careful what you wish for as it looks exactly like AoS bespoke rules for every unit which are mostly the same thing with different names.
You will mostly get: re-roll all 1's, +1 to the roll, -1 to the roll and thYAWNnn zźzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Not really. It's nice to have confirmation on little things that looked too good in the leaks, like Reanimation Protocols can indeed bring back that Necron Warrior who died turn one on turn five, etc.
Yes really. Every Index leaked already. Who needs insight when we literally have all of the army rules now?
I feel like the tournament guys being involved might make the game too "clinical". You know, simple, dumbed down and not following the fluff to make a new game.
EDIT: New wasn't the word I was looking for. More along the lines of a game that goes really quickly so that they can determine who wins faster and isn't very in depth.
I can't see any way to transport a character with a transported Necron unit. :I
Also it seems to be pushing silver tide super hard, which is kinda annoying given, well put it this way: I own 11,000 points worth of Necrons but I only have 20 warriors.
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NivlacSupreme wrote: I feel like the tournament guys being involved might make the game too "clinical". You know, simple, dumbed down and not following the fluff to make a new game.
Yeah just because this system is tidier than 7th doesn't mean it's not a much less interesting system than the 3rd framework.
Not really. It's nice to have confirmation on little things that looked too good in the leaks, like Reanimation Protocols can indeed bring back that Necron Warrior who died turn one on turn five, etc.
Yes really. Every Index leaked already. Who needs insight when we literally have all of the army rules now?
any fluff tidbits
i still want to know how the adeptus restarties are structured inside adeptus retiredes
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Ok i'm gonna put this in bold just for other posters
your army is not invalid just because those units do not have the DEATH GUARD faction keyword does not mean they do not have the CHAOS faction keyword
you can use those units in any army or detachment ALONG with DEATH GUARD unit because BOTH have the CHAOS keyword.
no your havocs are not T5 all that jaz, but everyone is reporting everything being generic... marines no chapter tactics etc
Not really. It's nice to have confirmation on little things that looked too good in the leaks, like Reanimation Protocols can indeed bring back that Necron Warrior who died turn one on turn five, etc.
Yes really. Every Index leaked already. Who needs insight when we literally have all of the army rules now?
No. As I stated, it's nice to have a 'Yes, this is really how it works' to some of the things we've seen in the leaks.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Read the lists in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook and your reaction would be similar. These are get-you-by lists until the full Codexes come out for each army. For that, they're actually much better than the 3rd ed. ones were.
These leaks look like they're coming from the real books though, not printouts or WD pages. Unless you mean the bigger books are stopgap and proper codexes as we know them now are gonna come later? that sort of ruins the whole anthology codex approach to me.
They did the same thing in AoS with their Grand Alliance Books right?
flakpanzer wrote: So the text of the Woods terrain in the Advanced section of the Rulebook reads as follows:
INFANTRY units that are entirely on the base of a wood receive the benefit of cover. If your wood is not on a base, discuss with your opponent what the boundary of the wood is before the battle begins.
OTHER UNITS only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is actually obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit.
Does that mean that if I have a unit on one side of a wood that is shooting at your INFANTRY unit completely on the opposite side of the wood, there is no penalty (as long as I can see models to shoot them)?
Personally, look at the woods - do they make it harder to see the models on the other side? if you modeled them densely, they should.
This is where you just ask the other player - "hey, I did not buy a ton of trees for this, but you wanna say it gives cover shooting across it"
Not really. It's nice to have confirmation on little things that looked too good in the leaks, like Reanimation Protocols can indeed bring back that Necron Warrior who died turn one on turn five, etc.
Yes really. Every Index leaked already. Who needs insight when we literally have all of the army rules now?
any fluff tidbits
i still want to know how the adeptus restarties are structured inside adeptus retiredes
Rippy has been doing an AMAZING job of linking all of this stuff in the first post of this thread. Everything available is there. I haven't seen the Primaris Book that comes with the Boxed Set leaked yet. That has all the fluff in it for the NuMarines.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.
Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.
Yeah my mistake. Yet, it's still nothing when you factor the 502 point price tag. 41 points per attack? Yeah...
The Wraithknight could be overpriced as much as 100 points.
A tac marine with a power fist provides 1 S8 -3 D3 attack for 33 points. With T4 and no invuln.
A terminator gets 2 for 51 points.
Both with -1 to hit.
Think it over some more...
Almost all of the superbig models do nothing compared to their points in basic troops - this is COMMON.
nothing is wrong with the WK. Or the tesseract vault, or the stompa (900+ points) or the knight titan.
I hate to say it, but can we let this one go? its not about the eldar - its about all big units, and with a few exceptions, has been like this for a while.
Not really. It's nice to have confirmation on little things that looked too good in the leaks, like Reanimation Protocols can indeed bring back that Necron Warrior who died turn one on turn five, etc.
Yes really. Every Index leaked already. Who needs insight when we literally have all of the army rules now?
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.
Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.
I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!
Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?
Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.
You fail to note that you cannot take 5 razorbacks for 500 points, as you are required to buy a unit to take them. Which adds what looks to me to be a minimum of 55 points per razorback so those 5 razorbacks end up costing 775 points. You also need to buy an HQ in any detachment allowing them. It appears you could use the auxiliary detachments to take some but in matched play that will use up a whole detachment (if detachment recommendations are followed). Sure you get the units in them, but if you are going straight damage out put You could take 3 Wraithknights at ~1500 pts, and you would stretch to fit 10 Razorbacks with minimal squads.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
Well okay matched play has but I think 3-4 brigades might be tad hard even for guard to fill 
So much for one of the greatest weapons in 
