Edit:

I've had a bunch of requests from people who wanted to see some pictures of the models fully assembled and painted, so I painted some up for all to see.  I'm not the best painter in the world, but I think you'll still enjoy seeing how this project has gone from concept to reality. 

 

Some of my fellow Imperial Guard players from around the world and myself are tired of waiting for GW or forgeworld to put female cadians on the sprues in a decade or so.  According to GW fluff, half of cadians should be female, and we want our armies to represent that.  So, instead of waiting, we are pooling our money together and hiring a professional sculptor and we are going to make it happen ourselves.

The sculptor is going to make a torso and a pair of heads, one with goggles like in the concept art, and another made so that you can put the empty helmet right onto it.  Since these will be made entirely out of greenstuff, we can cast them and make copies without breaking IP rules.

Here's the concept art, originally drawn by The Green Witch on 40K online:

The sculptor used to sculpt for Cell Emtertainment, which was responsable for such things as Krash, Ronin, 1999, Hybrid, and some others. 
Here's a link to some of his work on CMON.  Obviously, this example is a lot bustier then what we would want for a female cadian, but I think it shows that he has the skills to pull this off.
www.coolminiornot.com/70579

 

If anyone is interested in joining in, send me a PM.  It costs $40.00 to join in.  The deadline to join in is February 26th.  Everyone who joins in will get 25-30 sets, depending on how many people join up.  Each set will contain a torso and both heads.  Shipping is included in the $40.00.  We will not be selling these afterwards, so the only way to get any is to join in now.

 

I'd tread very carefully here regarding IP. I know you're trying to be careful, but even calling these 'female cadians' and even just charging people to 'subscribe' to the sculpt may bring down a C&D order...

Sadly, this is IP infringement and GW will hand your ass to you! Shame, art's nice...

This is not a business transaction, it is just a group of players pooling their money together to get some bitz made for their personal armies, nothing more.  No one is subscribing to anything.

It really doesn't matter whether it's a business or not. You can't copy GW's designs, make miniatures or parts named with GW's Trademarks, or make 3rd party parts for GW minis without infringing on GW's IP.

I would strongly recommend that you and your sculptor both talk to an IP Lawyer and/or GW's legal department before you take any money for this...

On IP, the flip side is they are making after market additions to GW kits. So long as they are not recasting bitz or using GW logos (even things like Imperial Eagles or winged skulls) they are fine. Imagine if he was making crested roman helmets or M16 arms for Cadians, no one would object to that.

But unfortunately all of these arguements are settled in court, and few people have the time or money for that kind of fight.

One key of course is to avoid attention, say by recruiting people by email and PM rather than a website or even a message board post.

Good luck Doc!

It's a nice idea to supplement the fluff, but why not jus source female heads and work up from there? There was a thread in the modelling forum not long back very similar to this. Heresy do generic heads, but they may work out to be quite an investment if you want a lot of them.

Also, there's a girl in my hall who looks earily similar to that pic.

 

Edit: Before you start, no, she doesn't own plasma weaponry.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 02/13/2007 4:35 PM
On IP, the flip side is they are making after market additions to GW kits. So long as they are not recasting bitz or using GW logos (even things like Imperial Eagles or winged skulls) they are fine. Imagine if he was making crested roman helmets or M16 arms for Cadians, no one would object to that.

Actually, GW's legal page specifically mentions that they don't allow people to make parts for their miniatures. That may not be actually enforcable legally (I'm not a lawyer, so have no idea), but you'd probably have to go to court with them to prove otherwise...


Making parts that fit on GW minis is fine... there are plenty of minis out there that share a scale.

But making parts specifically for GW minis, and branding them with GW names, is likely to attract the worst sort of attention.

if he was making Space wolf beardy heads or Leman Russ I would be interested, but Cadians, phah
frail humans

Yes, exactly. So all he and his friends have to do is call them sci-fi soldier female heads and torso, and so long as it is a custom sculpt it's fine. Similar to the drop pod issue. Drop pods are fine to make, 40k or Space Marine drop pods are not.

Posted By Wayfarer on 02/13/2007 6:35 PM
So all he and his friends have to do is call them sci-fi soldier female heads and torso, and so long as it is a custom sculpt it's fine.

Without trying to drum it into the ground... it would also rely on the finished piece not looking like it was wearing Cadian armour.

Not that this is too hard, as body armour is fairly generic. But copying the Cadian style exactly (as some might be tempted to do to have them match the males in their army) is out.

If Games Workshop wants to sue me for giving this bloke $40, I'm happy for them to pay a lawyer hundreds of pounds for the privilege.

But yeah, " Inspired-by-Nottingham.com " would be a good way to go about it.

Believe it or not, an ex-forgeworld sculptor did make some female Cadian torsos when he worked for them (lets just say he made a lot of the 40k terrain they make), and offered them to FW absolutely free of charge. He made them because he wanted to, while working on the Anphelion Project.

They were turned away. I think that says everything about their attitude to gender split

I think that's an excellent point. If we players want it to happen, we'll have to do it ourselves. I think this project could be the start of something really great. Imagine if the online community took initiative like this more often, creating the upgrade kits we want, instead of hoping that GW or forgeworld might eventually listen to us in a decade or so.

On a production note, just scuplting the torso won't be enough. The regular male Cadian torsos are badly designed to fit the legs as it is (they are narrower than all but one of the five legs sets and the fault is usually fixed with shaving off some plastic, greenstuffing, or covering the problem with accessories), but to slim down the waist will make the fit damn near impossible.

Added to which, as anyone will tell you, wearing body armour disguises the female form considerably.

Then there's the height issue, which is a problem if you're not sculpting legs.

So the heads sound great. The torsos not so much.

I agree. I'm not entirely sure torsos are necessary. Under that much body armour it's hard to tell, unless they're models for 'Big Busts of the Imperium'. A head swap is probably sufficient. (Female Catachans would be a different matter.)

On the other hand, that's a great pic at the start of the thread. I'll have to look for couple alternate heads to slip into my army.

EDIT: "In the grim darkness of the far future, sex change surgery involves decapitation."

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 02/14/2007 9:38 AM
I think that's an excellent point. If we players want it to happen, we'll have to do it ourselves. I think this project could be the start of something really great. Imagine if the online community took initiative like this more often, creating the upgrade kits we want, instead of hoping that GW or forgeworld might eventually listen to us in a decade or so.

  Plenty of Epic players have the same attitude.  Of course, that's entire miniatures rather than upgrade parts.  I do seem to recall a recent line of "just heads" that would fit on Cadians. 

Posted By Stu-Rat on 02/14/2007 10:16 AM
On a production note, just scuplting the torso won't be enough. The regular male Cadian torsos are badly designed to fit the legs as it is (they are narrower than all but one of the five legs sets and the fault is usually fixed with shaving off some plastic, greenstuffing, or covering the problem with accessories), but to slim down the waist will make the fit damn near impossible.
Then there's the height issue, which is a problem if you're not sculpting legs.

I think that is an excellent point.  For me, the ideal situation would be to sculpt a couple of pairs of legs in different poses as well as the torso and heads, but it all depends on how many people join up.  If we can get a few more people from Dakka, I bet we'd have enough to do legs as well.

i like that art..

Posted By pnweerar on 02/13/2007 9:46 PM
If Games Workshop wants to sue me for giving this bloke $40, I'm happy for them to pay a lawyer hundreds of pounds for the privilege.

It wouldn't be the buyers getting in trouble over it... and besides, GW have their own Lawyers.

 

 

Damn shame a cartoon hottie like her is carrying a plasma gun....she'll most likely die in her first battle.

The fluff really says half of all cadians are female? Man the cadians are dumb....one good war and their reproductive capability is zapped. Good bye Cadian society!

 

 

Posted By General Hobbs on 02/14/2007 10:48 PM

  Damn shame a cartoon hottie like her is carrying a plasma gun....she'll most likely die in her first battle.

The fluff really says half of all cadians are female? Man the cadians are dumb....one good war and their reproductive capability is zapped. Good bye Cadian society!

I hate to be the one to break this to you but you need men to make babies too

 

Posted By Spacegoat on 02/15/2007 12:38 AM
I hate to be the one to break this to you but you need men to make babies too

Yeah, but they don't need to be intact...

And you don't need that many of them...

I thought everyone would like to know that the IP issue has been resolved. 

 Kugelblitz, one of the people who has joined in the project, has known one of the GW VP's for many years, and he spoke to him about the project and we have been given the green light.  His reasons:  Small scale production, not for sale afterwards, not for profit, no GW parts being cast, private group, no harm, no foul.

So, the IP issue is a non-issue.  There's no further need to talk about it.  Anyone who was reluctant to get on board because of that no longer has any reason to hesitate.  There are still eleven days left to join in before the deadline, let's have some more people join up. 

What kind of pricing is this going to be per mini?  Also, are they going to be cast in metal or resin?  I might be interested, but I'd need more details, feel free to pm or e-mail me if necessary.

Ok I am in (depending on price of course). Send me the details.

It costs $40.00 to join in.  Everyone who joins in gets 25-30 sets, depending on how many people join up.  Each set will contain a torso and two heads (one with goggles like in the picture and another designed so that you can put the empty helmet onto it)  There will be no shipping charge to you when it comes time to mail off the sets, everything is included in the $40.00.

The more people join in, the more money we have to work with.  If we can get enough people on board, we can do more, like legs and more head varients and fun stuff like that.
The casting will be done in resin.

I'll send you guys all the details in a PM.

I'm in. PM sent.

I'm in as well.  I've already sent my money and can't wait to see the results.

Thanks
Tellerium

Sweet. Good luck making the hobby your own, guys.

Next stop, heads with berets .

You want all-beret wearing Cadian army? I do.

I'll bite...pm sent.

Posted By Spacegoat on 02/15/2007 12:38 AM

Posted By General Hobbs on 02/14/2007 10:48 PM

  Damn shame a cartoon hottie like her is carrying a plasma gun....she'll most likely die in her first battle.

The fluff really says half of all cadians are female? Man the cadians are dumb....one good war and their reproductive capability is zapped. Good bye Cadian society!

I hate to be the one to break this to you but you need men to make babies too

 

One man can impregnate a 100 women. Either the fun way or the not so fun way....but 1 woman can only bear a child once a year. So a society needs women to replenish its population after times of social devastation, like wars etc.

Sounds like a ponzi scheme

Congrats on the greenlight.

And to replenish the population, I offer all your wimmenz my handkerchief.

Nuh Uh. Jester cleaned out your underwear drawer, remember? He got the magazines too.

Interesting thought there though -- the reason we don't see too many (any?) armies with a high female participation rate, could be because back in the day those tribes were selected against, because they couldn't recover numbers as quick as those that didn't.

I can justify female Cadians though, because they probably just repopulate the planet from the rest of the system every crusade or so as a free action, so they may as well have double guns.

Double guns!

No berets please. Unless you are talking about a completely different project. female cadians should be as close to the GW kits as possible.

We need

A 'face' to go with the plastic empty helmet. But not too many as you dont get many empty helmets to fill.
At least two head variants preferably a third.

Two torsos

arms and legs if we can get them. Legs are more important female arms in combat jackets looks like mens (only a little shorter - and we can resize them easily ourselves.).

'Limited' extras

Cadian officer torso
Cadian officer head with cap
Heavy weapons crew poses - which could be as little as one kneeling legs pose.

Come on not again, look at any military woman in the service today with a flak vest on, just buy some amazon heads from the Mordheim range "problem" solved!

MR.B

Yes! You have to nuke it from orbit, just to be sure.

Posted By MR.B on 02/16/2007 1:56 PM
Come on not again, look at any military woman in the service today with a flak vest on, just buy some amazon heads from the Mordheim range "problem" solved!

MR.B

But just think of the potential recuriting campaign the Army could do if women wore the Kevlar Bustier and Ceramic "chest plate."

The amazon heads are a bit too small to look proper on the cadians.  I mean the cadian fist is the size of the head. 

For anyone looking for berets, try West Wind Productions 28mm WWII Seperate Head System.  I did a mini-review here.  Apologies in advance for the blurry camera work.

 

That art looks nice, just like the girl from Starcraft: Ghost (penny arcade's rendition at least). I have a hard time imagining when some cartoon females are supposed to be hot, unlike some of you , but if she's supposed to be anything like Blizz's model then I agree. Bonus guy standing next to her feeling uncomfortable.

Anyone ever seen a Female in a flak Jacket and a Kevlar...In a combat zone? I'm an Army Veteran. Ya 'nuff said most of the time they look like men from a distance.

Posted By MR.B on 02/19/2007 10:31 AM
Anyone ever seen a Female in a flak Jacket and a Kevlar...In a combat zone?

Ever seen a Cadian model?

They're a heck of a lot more solid built then most male soldiers, never mind the female ones. Just slapping a female head on them would look ridiculous.

A female version doesn't have to be a playboy pin-up. It just needs to have slightly more realistic proportions for a female... which for me would mean shorter and more slightly built.

MR. B,

Seriously, your negativity is rather unfounded. The name of the topic is, "would anyone be interested in.....", not, "let's try to think of ways to be a troll."

You have stated your opinion, you aren't interested. That's great. Everyone else here is interested.

There is no point in coming in here and trolling or baiting anyone into a flamewar. If you don't agree with molding plastic cadian female pieces and have nothing else useful to add to the conversation, then just don't post.

Alright folks its fixed no more from me on the Playboy Cadians....!

Sorry about my "Unfounded Neativity".......and "trolling"

I don't think he was trolling at all. He was just letting us know that women in uniform don't look much different from men in uniform, and that's fair.

Posted By pnweerar on 02/19/2007 6:35 PM
I don't think he was trolling at all.

That's probably because you didn't see the rest of his post before he edited it out...

Alright already folks its a game....thats all Im going to say....

You guys keep bringing it up its just going to keep bouncing around so...

No woman in the 41st millennium is that cute.  Even the Sisters of Battle who are somewhat easy on the eye have a harsh, dominatrix look.  Eschers are close, but they are not that cute.

I member this one time I went to Montreal and the Cadian wimmins were hawt!!  I think they were strippers tho.

Mr. B.

Let it go. This thread is for people that are "interested in making female cadians a reality." Your realistic women in flak jackets, and our cute cadian babes in goggles can exist in the same universe.

You said it yourself, it is only a game. You apologized and edited your post, which is commendable, but you continue to dredge the subject along. THAT is trolling.

Let it go.

Alright  whitedragon

I cant win.....keep it real!

How many are in so far?

I am in, could you also sen t me the information as well?

PM Sent

Twenty-Nine people have joined in so far.

I think I'm interested now. I just realized that my hot Anime Tau army with Mechas won't be complete without some hawt anime boobiez. Can you PM me the info to join in and any relevant info to dissuade the skeptical/pragmatic side of me that keeps thinking this is a bit shady and how do I know I won't get jipped? Thanks.

Also, you said the model won't be as busty as the female inquisitor, but is it busty enough for anime robot-pilot-jockeys?

Now this is on a first come first served basis yes? Frankly I am in no hurry. As the casting will take place after the payment deadline, and appears to be a one off permission by GW, wont it make sense to take a bit more time and get it real good.

I would rather wait longer and get more options than get my 25-30x torso and two heads now now now. What do others think?

PM sent to stonefox.

Orlanth, we've got enough people on board that we will be doing more then just a torso and a pair of heads. I'll be announcing the full details to those who join up on the 27th, the day after the deadline.

Hey Doc,

Looking forward to hearing what the plan is. Are we going to get a change to discuss which pieces we'd like made, or are you going to make an executive decision?

I didn't see this addressed, and my apologies if it already has been, but what if after I throw in my $40, I see the end result, and think they suck? (I'm picky.)  I feel that either way, it's a sound investment - contributing to the community and all, but would it raise IP alarms if I went on to sell my sets to someone who wanted them?

Regarding heads, I'd like to direct your attention to Hasslefree Miniatures' "Human Female Heads" (click the pics):

From the website:

Sprue of five 28mm scale female heads

Can be used in conversions or within the sculpting of a new figure entirely.

Can be used commercially.

Price £ 3.00

I might be in - could you send me a PM?

It looks like you missed the boat Elusive. The deadline expired yesterday. If you are lucky you could still join in, but I suspect that GW set the deadline as a condition of allowing the castings. Its worth asking anyway.

Looks like we'll be getting a lot. Some edited excerpts from an update we just received:

"In addition to the torso, we will be sculpting two different sets of legs, and four differerent kinds of heads. This means that each "set" you get will contain legs, a torso, and a head."

"Sculpting legs is the single greatest contribution, we will be able to create a slim female silouette that will be slightly shorter then a male cadian. We should be able to place a female and a male cadian alongside each other and the gender should be obvious by the build."

"One set of legs will be in a walking pose, while the other will be in a braced firing position. We are going to add some armor to the legs. A knee protector and some shin armor. Basically, it will
be somewhere in-between carapace armor and flak armor."

"There will be four different kinds of heads, two without helmets, and two designed to have the empty helmets placed onto them. Of the helmetless heads, one will be like in the concept sketch, with goggles, while the other will have a short-military style pony tail."

I'm not all that interested in the femme cadians (it's just a punt to see what happens), but I'm quite interested in the larger concept: people sourcing a sculptor and getting a some custom minis made at fantastically low cost.

Same here, this project has promise in that it would be great if it was expanded to other things, namely orks.  I'm curious to see the finished sculpts.

female orks? I diodnt think they existed

Posted By Orlanth on 03/02/2007 3:09 AM
female orks? I diodnt think they existed

Hahaha. In the same concept. Like new bodies and heads and legs and arms and stuff.
thought... it just wouldn't be the same...

i know its possibly a bit soon but any updates and progress?
millest

No pics yet, but I have been in regular contact with the sculptor and he is definately working on things. We've really expanded the project for him, with two, possibly three sets of legs, and four head varients in addition to the torso, so I expect things to happen later rather than sooner, but they will happen.
I have a mailing list I have created to email updates to those who are part of the project. I wasn't planning on posting update pics on the forums as well, but I suppose I can if people want to see them.

There have been some developments, I hope Dr Thunder will post the images he got for us. I am very impressed by the work so far.

Posted By Orlanth on 03/02/2007 3:09 AM
female orks? I diodnt think they existed

Well, there were/ are female orcs.

Here's some Work In Progress shots we've recieved from the sculptor:

I'm very pleased with how things are coming along. There are still a few things that need to be done. The lower part of the cadian jacket (the skirt-like thingy) needs to be added in, some ruffles added to the back of the legs, and I've asked the sculptor to move the pockets to the sides of the legs and copy the pocket pattern on the male cadian legs. Oh, and the back of the torso needs the little square knob-thingy put onto it, and an eagle symbol placed on the left side of the chest.

Hot!

I'd hit it.

I mean pay for that excellent mini.

very cool looking. i wish i knew this project was going on. any other pictures yet?

The WIP shots are fantastic - I don't play guard and I'd be tempted to get some anyways and make a small (for guard) force using these. Alas for past deadlines.

Got a big update for everyone. One pair of legs, the torso, and two of the heads are 100% done, which means that we've only got two more heads and two more pairs of legs to go and then the sculpting is done. <!--emo& --> <!--endemo-->

I'm also happy to announce that we are opening the doors again for people who want some but missed the deadline. Anyone who is interested just send me a PM and I'll give you the details.





P.S. the helmet and arms have just been temporarily put on for the picture so people can see what they would look like assembled.

Legal debates aside, that is a superb piece of work.

Not too keen on the helmetless head... the face looks a little too anime-ish. And definitely far too happy for the 40K universe. The helmeted head is perfect, though.

For the body, he's done a great job of keeping the stocky, Cadian look while making it an unambiguously femine shape.

Posted By insaniak on 04/04/2007 2:01 PM
Not too keen on the helmetless head... the face looks a little too anime-ish. And definitely far too happy for the 40K universe. The helmeted head is perfect, though.

For the body, he's done a great job of keeping the stocky, Cadian look while making it an unambiguously femine shape.

Yeah, there was a very careful balance we had to acheive, but I think we nailed it in the end.

Don't think of her as being happy, think of her as psychotically grinning.  >

That's what I am.
Bravo. Those are great.
(I hope you don't mind, but I pointed a couple of non dakka gaurd players I know at this thread in case they were interested)

Well...

To me, those look awful. The hips are too wide and have a sexy, sultry swagger going on. The right foot is turned in, like she's playing to the camera or about to trip up. And the face has a stupid smile on it.

On the up side, the torso is pretty good. And the helmeted head, although bland (through necessity) is okay.

No Stu-Rat the pose is correct, women do not run like men do. Psychoface works, this gal looks crazy enough to fit into 40K. Besides if you know anything about women in front line combat, they dont need encouraging they need restraining, and that is something the Imperium wont see fit to do.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/05/2007 3:05 AM
(I hope you don't mind, but I pointed a couple of non dakka gaurd players I know at this thread in case they were interested)

No problem. 

 

women do not run like men do

Exactly.  The problem is that a lot of us are used to looking at GW's horrible female models that do not have proper proportions.  (Sisters Repentia, anyone?)

And, I'm not talking about breasts.  Human females have a very different skeletal structure that the human eye instintivly looks for.  When those differences are properly done on a model it looks feminine no matter what its pose is.

The model shown is in almost the exact same pose as her male counterpart.  She's just walking, not posing.  But, because the female model actually has female proportions and skeletal structure built into it, it reads differently.

I guess its easy to get confused when the only women you every see are on the internet.

I am most definitely impressed. Is it too late to get on board?

The only thing I'm a little weird on is the arms... I guess you resize everything else and suddenly the arms look too large. The pic showing off the left arm shows it the best. Maybe it's just a byproduct of the picture?

Just a minor thing, ya know. I'm really impressed with the head sculpts... those alone would do wonders for conversions.

Posted By Geddonight on 04/13/2007 11:03 AM
I am most definitely impressed. Is it too late to get on board?

The only thing I'm a little weird on is the arms... I guess you resize everything else and suddenly the arms look too large. The pic showing off the left arm shows it the best. Maybe it's just a byproduct of the picture?

Just a minor thing, ya know. I'm really impressed with the head sculpts... those alone would do wonders for conversions.

The sleeves on the arms are baggy, but fortunately they are also plastic, so they can easily be trimmed down to taste.  I'll send you a PM about joining up. 

PM sent.....I would like some Female Kasrkin for my Inquisitorial Stromtroopers!!!

Count me in. PM sent.

Update for you guys.  The second set of legs is 100% done, as well as another head.  One of the things I dislike about the GW male cadians is that they all have the same face and body type.  Real people aren't like that, so we've given each head and set of legs a slightly different body-type and expression.  (You may notice that this head has a much more traditional 40K "screaming" expression on her face for you purists out there)  That will lead to greater diversity in the models and a greater overall quality to the project.  Like before, we've blue-tacked on some plastic arms and helmet so you can see what one would look like fully assembled. 

Are your making them avalible to the public becuase I am interesting some.

Sweet. They're still looking good.

Posted By Pipboy101 on 04/28/2007 4:35 PM
Are your making them avalible to the public becuase I am interesting some.

Yes, if anyone wants to join in just send me a PM.

I've had a bunch of requests from people who wanted to see some pictures of the models fully assembled and painted, so I painted some up for all to see.  I'm not the best painter in the world, but I think you'll still enjoy seeing how this project has gone from concept to reality.  My sincere thanks to everyone who come together to make it happen. 

 

Thanks for the pics. I haven't assembled mine yet. I'll be converting some of them into Rough Riders, so I'll post pics of that once I (eventually) get it done.

If anyone is still looking or interested in the female cadians, I am selling mine on Ebay (had to to fund the 3 Exorcist Project). Username is Darkpadre or you can drop me a line. 10 are painted and 5 are not, but all are assembled (and there are more than a couple of plasma guns in there)

You should post a link in the swap shop forum, the thread-necromancy inquisition will be through here shortly to close this.