That one i would take with some salt, but if its, true itll be awesome. If they have 2 wounds i will weep tears of joy.
The other rumor is a product listing from a reputable source. The tac marines will be released alongside a new sanguinary priest and PSYCHIC POWER CARDS FETH YEAH.
theharrower wrote: -ing Death Company Terminators! I know this is a pretty big change in fluff, but if it's true I can't wait to see the look on my opponents faces when they hit the table.
via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Blood angels terminator kit
Dual kit
First build is honour guard/ regular ba terminator with ornamentation similar to the da kit.
Second build is death company terminator with rather large chainfists and what appears to be souped up storm bolters/gatling cannons
I will throw so much money around its gonna be nuts. Considering even through a lot of 6th I made my opponents fear my DC this could be just hilarious/fun/ just plain awsome looking.
That being said........ I'll believe it when I see it.
also like I said before even if we don't get an assault box ill just steal bits from the Tac box, like I've done from the DC boxes in the past. no big deal to me.
theharrower wrote: -ing Death Company Terminators! I know this is a pretty big change in fluff, but if it's true I can't wait to see the look on my opponents faces when they hit the table.
via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Blood angels terminator kit
Dual kit
First build is honour guard/ regular ba terminator with ornamentation similar to the da kit.
Second build is death company terminator with rather large chainfists and what appears to be souped up storm bolters/gatling cannons
And I thought making Death Company all gothy instead of the old fluff of them getting rid of their good armor for whatever cheap junk was laying around was silly
I don't know how Death Company Terminators would be supposed to work- my understanding is that they're Marines who went nuts and run screaming at their enemies, waving chainswords and firing bolt pistols. With that in mind,I don't see what how slow-moving Terminator armor would serve them effectively without evoking long-winded "noooooo"s from their enemies.
Oh, that's just as good, because BA-specific terminators are another kit that no one was asking for. Especially since everyone who wants them has the SH termies for that already.
theharrower wrote: -ing Death Company Terminators! I know this is a pretty big change in fluff, but if it's true I can't wait to see the look on my opponents faces when they hit the table.
via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Blood angels terminator kit
Dual kit
First build is honour guard/ regular ba terminator with ornamentation similar to the da kit.
Second build is death company terminator with rather large chainfists and what appears to be souped up storm bolters/gatling cannons
I am wondering if that is what the black fist is supposed to represent in the DeathStorm set. It would make since for the name too. DC Dread, Jump DC, and Termi DC lead by an HQ with a formation called Strikeforce Deathstorm.
Given you're so cynical Sidstyler, I'd like to point out they don't have the CC variant represented very well in SH. Given it's probably an easy thing to make them if they do, why is it such a big deal anyway?
I flippin' like it! New Dex woot! Love the heavy flamer in the tactical squad too! Nice kit looks great! The Dex is what I want!! Hopefully we'll get some of the newer shinies and I'd be just fine!
troa wrote: Given you're so cynical Sidstyler, I'd like to point out they don't have the CC variant represented very well in SH. Given it's probably an easy thing to make them if they do, why is it such a big deal anyway?
It's not really a big deal to me, but all those guys practically begging for a new assault Marine kit are going to be disappointed because it'll be yet another kit they don't really "need", as even assault terminators aren't a very competitive choice. Which I guess could still change, but isn't likely.
troa wrote: Given you're so cynical Sidstyler, I'd like to point out they don't have the CC variant represented very well in SH. Given it's probably an easy thing to make them if they do, why is it such a big deal anyway?
DC terminators also don't make any sense given the rarity of terminator armor *and* the purpose of DC (which is to die). I personally don't mind more terminators even if they are a functionally useless unit..
troa wrote: Given you're so cynical Sidstyler, I'd like to point out they don't have the CC variant represented very well in SH. Given it's probably an easy thing to make them if they do, why is it such a big deal anyway?
DC terminators also don't make any sense given the rarity of terminator armor *and* the purpose of DC (which is to die). I personally don't mind more terminators even if they are a functionally useless unit..
The Death Company's purpose is to kill as many xenos and heretics as possible before they have to be put down. Making them better at that makes sense.
Fluff wise, i can actually justify it. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Death company fight longer and harder and fiercer than even normal BA marines, and terminator armor is the best protection that can be given to standard infantry. Throwing the imperiums finest in to an impossible fray is one thing, but doing it when theyre (fluff wise) all but impossible to take down would have about the same results as virus bombingthe planet.
th3maninblak wrote: Fluff wise, i can actually justify it. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Death company fight longer and harder and fiercer than even normal BA marines, and terminator armor is the best protection that can be given to standard infantry. Throwing the imperiums finest in to an impossible fray is one thing, but doing it when theyre (fluff wise) all but impossible to take down would have about the same results as virus bombingthe planet.
Well this is supposed to be the Blood Angels 'last stand' of sorts what with the Demons and Tyranids launching their assault on the Baal system? Would make sense that they need their most deadly weapons (DC Marines) armed with the most amazing gear they can offer.
It makes no sense fluffwise. Terminator armor is slow and cumbersome in the fluff and giving it to crazed lunatics would only frustrate them, not make them better. Each suit is also a relic of the chapter thousands of years old in most cases with a tiny piece of the emperor's own armor in it and they wouldn't/shouldn't hand one over to a looney who would jump off a cliff to chase down a xenos damaging or destroying it.
warboss wrote: It makes no sense fluffwise. Terminator armor is slow and cumbersome in the fluff and giving it to crazed lunatics would only frustrate them, not make them better. Each suit is also a relic of the chapter and they wouldn't/shouldn't hand one over to a looney who would jump off a cliff to chase down a xenos makes no sense.
warboss wrote: It makes no sense fluffwise. Terminator armor is slow and cumbersome in the fluff and giving it to crazed lunatics would only frustrate them, not make them better. Each suit is also a relic of the chapter thousands of years old in most cases with a tiny piece of the emperor's own armor in it and they wouldn't/shouldn't hand one over to a looney who would jump off a cliff to chase down a xenos damaging or destroying it.
There's a DC dread sir, which also is slow and well to say the least cumbersome.
warboss wrote: It makes no sense fluffwise. Terminator armor is slow and cumbersome in the fluff and giving it to crazed lunatics would only frustrate them, not make them better. Each suit is also a relic of the chapter thousands of years old in most cases with a tiny piece of the emperor's own armor in it and they wouldn't/shouldn't hand one over to a looney who would jump off a cliff to chase down a xenos damaging or destroying it.
There's a DC dread sir, which also is slow and well to say the least cumbersome.
You have no choice with the dread. If the marine entombed within its sarcophagus succumbs to the black rage, you can either have the techmarines repaint the dreadnought or let him crawl out of the sarcophagus drooling shaking his shriveled fist (if he has one left) at the enemy as he inches towards them.
What the hell even is fluff anymore, lol. You can argue all day about what's fluffy and what isn't, but GW's gonna keep GW'ing and either blatantly contradict it or just outright change it to suit themselves (usually to assist in selling fancy new kits because they already released a kit for everything else and need to pull something new out of their ass that no one has yet, like DC terminators or BA tacticals with grav guns and heavy flamers).
You can run literally whatever the hell you want with any army you want and you can probably justify it via fluff. It you can't then it doesn't matter anyway because GW said you could literally run anything you wanted and called it "Unbound", and told you to make your own fluff up to better forge a narrative.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: They look really nice but I would rather have a new Assault Squad kit. Those guys REALLY need an update.
As someone who couldn't really care less about Marines and has thus never assembled an assault squad...what exactly is wrong with the kit? I know older kits sometimes have "issues" with them but I'm unaware of what it might be in this case.
Nothing is really wrong with the assault marine kit.. It's just pretty bland and doesn't come with BA assault squad weapon options like meltaguns. Also jump packs have really terrible mold lines.
Sidstyler wrote: What the hell even is fluff anymore, lol. You can argue all day about what's fluffy and what isn't, but GW's gonna keep GW'ing and either blatantly contradict it or just outright change it to suit themselves (usually to assist in selling fancy new kits because they already released a kit for everything else and need to pull something new out of their ass that no one has yet, like DC terminators or BA tacticals with grav guns and heavy flamers).
You can run literally whatever the hell you want with any army you want and you can probably justify it via fluff. It you can't then it doesn't matter anyway because GW said you could literally run anything you wanted and called it "Unbound", and told you to make your own fluff up to better forge a narrative.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: They look really nice but I would rather have a new Assault Squad kit. Those guys REALLY need an update.
As someone who couldn't really care less about Marines and has thus never assembled an assault squad...what exactly is wrong with the kit? I know older kits sometimes have "issues" with them but I'm unaware of what it might be in this case.
-Really large and obvious mold lines.
-Lack of all weapons upgrades, especially Grav guns and Flamers.
Really, lack of bits and options in general, especially compared to the awesome new Vanilla Tac kit.
-Worst of all, they have only a tiny foot with which to stand them on the base. And they're VERY top heavy.
Are these the original plastic jump packs or a re-cut that people are complaining about?
Never had a big problem with the 200 or so I put together back in the day. Mold lines and seams to remove once it's glued together, but nothing too tricky.
Also they will apparently be on 32mm bases now so...GW care about your tipping jump packers!
The kits on the whole had bad mold lines, the packs are just the worst part for me. The jump packs I've had issues with are newer (the past 2 years or so) since that is when I started 40k.
The newer DC packs fit together almost perfectly by comparison.
UK wise most independent retailers seem to have sold out of their allocations of Shield of Baal: Deathstorm, this includes the likes of Dark Sphere, The Outpost and Wayland. Element Games have stock but are not offering any discount so if this has piqued your interest I suggest acting quickly.
Also they will apparently be on 32mm bases now so...GW care about your tipping jump packers!
I have far too much invested in my assault troops. Well, the good old British one pence coin glued into the base that means my Vanguard, Raptors and Stormboyz remain stable anyway.
Belloflostsouls osted a description of the codex cover. Apparently an assault marine holding a chainsword+plasma pistol. Sounds cool and i cant wait to see it.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: That, and well, they have to give BA players a reason to gravitate towards Tactical Squads as opposed to Assault Squads because the current edition is "shooty".
Otherwise BA players would continue to try to jam a square peg into a round hole with all-Assault armies and then complain how their codex was broken and nerfed and underpowered.
Some would, anyway. I've always enjoyed success with tactical squads in fast rhinos, disembarking at close range and rapid-firing heretics' faces off. Every time people complain that BA are broken because their all-jump-pack army isn't viable I cringe.
If the BAFAQ is anything to go by you probably won't have Fast Rhinos anymore, just the Baal Pred will be Fast.
Some would, anyway. I've always enjoyed success with tactical squads in fast rhinos, disembarking at close range and rapid-firing heretics' faces off. Every time people complain that BA are broken because their all-jump-pack army isn't viable I cringe.
If the BAFAQ is anything to go by you probably won't have Fast Rhinos anymore, just the Baal Pred will be Fast.
Either way. Can't disembark after moving more than 6", fast or not, so it hardly matters on Rhinos these days (last turn Rhino-to-objective-dash notwithstanding, if your Rhinos live that long). The difference fast makes is in the tanks anyhow.
Just having a look at the Tac Squad with fresh eyes, the bits are new. They're similar to some of the DC and Sang Guard bits but slightly different (e.g. no crosses on shoulder pads, or crossed ropes around legs). Also note the sarge's artificer armour "hot crossed bun" knee pads on standard MKVI legs... I think what they're trying to do is tie the tac squad in to the newer DC and Sang Guard kits so you can have a consistent look to the army. Personally I've never been able to make good use of tac squads so would have preferred new assault marines (as others have said the basic one does need an update) but this is a nice looking kit nonetheless.
LutherMax wrote: Just having a look at the Tac Squad with fresh eyes, the bits are new. They're similar to some of the DC and Sang Guard bits but slightly different (e.g. no crosses on shoulder pads, or crossed ropes around legs). Also note the sarge's artificer armour "hot crossed bun" knee pads on standard MKVI legs... I think what they're trying to do is tie the tac squad in to the newer DC and Sang Guard kits so you can have a consistent look to the army. Personally I've never been able to make good use of tac squads so would have preferred new assault marines (as others have said the basic one does need an update) but this is a nice looking kit nonetheless.
I really don't like the fangs though
I can do without the fangs, but if that goes with the fluff then their my army of choice.
Yes I'd agree with the misuse of BATac Squads in my theater too. I've even broken them up into 5 man teams with Razorback support and transport. I like the idea of the small teams mounted in the Razorbacks but for the game I just get smoked. I may lose a couple of my 6 Razorbacks and squads to catastrophic hits and armor save fails. The rest get shot up with only 1 or 2 Marines surviving per squad. I'm moving on to a large Drop Pod force, about 6 in the works now. Three more just cut off the sprues. I like the Heavy Flamer in the Tactical Squad. I asked Neal at The War Store to tack on the BA Codex and two BATac Squads. Looking forward to the Dex for sure! Very happy BA player here!
The fangs aren't a big deal for me. It's still kinda goofy, but giving everyone the same haircut is worse I think. It wouldn't hurt having a dude or two with long hair, hell Sanguinius had long hair didn't he?
In other words I'm using the same argument that people had when criticizing the DE wyches; they're not pretty enough!
As someone who couldn't really care less about Marines and has thus never assembled an assault squad...what exactly is wrong with the kit? I know older kits sometimes have "issues" with them but I'm unaware of what it might be in this case.
In addition to what the others have mentioned, the detail on the assault quad is starting to get pretty shallow. It's just something that happens as the mould ages.
mitch_rifle wrote: Another marine box? it's cool and all but for the love of god please give chaos some love
the sculpts are old and the aesthetic and design are just horrid
Please lord kirby gives us some fething chaos stuff
Chaos comment in a Blood Angel thread, seriously?
Well, Blood Angels are just a short step from Heresy
Technically IIRC, the Knights of Blood Chapter is pretty much considered a Renegade Chapter by the vast majority of Imperial authorities...
Edit: mind you, I think the real gripe here is that;
1. The Chaos marine model line is among the most ancient in the game currently, and not in a good way... CSM's just look plain goofy now compared to the stuff that's been coming out for awhile now.
Not to mention that sizable chunk of the line is still limited to the slowly vanishing Fineco$t kits and the majority of the plastic sets that do exist are generally lacking in options.
2. Loyalists have now received two brand new weapon options - the Grav gun and now the Heavy flamer for their squaddies, while CSM's have seen a grand total of poop-all.
Honestly, if anyone should have received the Heavy flamer first, it should have been Chaos to fit in with their much more aggressive styles of play.
It's not really a big deal to me, but all those guys practically begging for a new assault Marine kit are going to be disappointed because it'll be yet another kit they don't really "need", as even assault terminators aren't a very competitive choice. Which I guess could still change, but isn't likely.
I'd argue the point and say we need the tactical kit more than new assault marines. Every Blood Angel player (myself included) has tons of assault marines. I redid all my minis when the 5th edition codex dropped and never even bothered to assemble a tactical squad.
Besides, GW will make sure we have to switch to them. My bet is assault marines get moved back to Fast and we get a new force org chart with additional fast slots.
It's not really a big deal to me, but all those guys practically begging for a new assault Marine kit are going to be disappointed because it'll be yet another kit they don't really "need", as even assault terminators aren't a very competitive choice. Which I guess could still change, but isn't likely.
I'd argue the point and say we need the tactical kit more than new assault marines. Every Blood Angel player (myself included) has tons of assault marines. I redid all my minis when the 5th edition codex dropped and never even bothered to assemble a tactical squad.
Besides, GW will make sure we have to switch to them. My bet is assault marines get moved back to Fast and we get a new force org chart with additional fast slots.
The only reason BA players went whole hog with Assault squads under the 5th ed codex was because they were far more economical in the MSU Transporthammer game that 5th devolved into...
By giving them access to both Melta and/or Plasma guns, plus the 40+pts savings for swapping out their Jump Packs for a 'free' transport pretty much rendered the poor Tac Marines into a non-issue.
If Ward had of showed some slight control and a semblance of intelligence when writing the book, he'd have kept the Assault squad to just the Flamer/Plasma pistol like their Vanilla counterparts, and thus, not outright invalidated the Tactical Sqaud option.
Plus it also wouldn't have trodden all over the toes of CSM Raptors who's special gig over their loyalist counterparts was that they could take the full range of special weapons.
Of course, it'll be pretty much impossible to remove that option now, as if GW does, there will be a massive outcry of nerf and/or hating on BA players.
The only thing GW can do to balance the issue is really to put the Assault Squads back into the Fast Attack slot and essentially force some Tac squads to come into play. (which of course will be made redundant by the BA codex formation that'll give 'oodles of FA slots so that BA players can keep playing MSU if they want...)
If Assault Squads were moved to Fast Attack and Vanguard Veterans were moved to Elite, it would change the make up of the average Blood Angels army. It would best be left alone.
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Death Company Terminators? Well why the hell weren't they in the new box that came out today.
Because Tactical Terminators are crap and they are trying to get rid of old product under the auspices of a sale.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: That, and well, they have to give BA players a reason to gravitate towards Tactical Squads as opposed to Assault Squads because the current edition is "shooty".
Otherwise BA players would continue to try to jam a square peg into a round hole with all-Assault armies and then complain how their codex was broken and nerfed and underpowered.
Some would, anyway. I've always enjoyed success with tactical squads in fast rhinos, disembarking at close range and rapid-firing heretics' faces off. Every time people complain that BA are broken because their all-jump-pack army isn't viable I cringe.
If the BAFAQ is anything to go by you probably won't have Fast Rhinos anymore, just the Baal Pred will be Fast.
I'm assuming this is reference to my giant sloth post?
casvalremdeikun wrote:If Assault Squads were moved to Fast Attack and Vanguard Veterans were moved to Elite, it would change the make up of the average Blood Angels army. It would best be left alone.
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Death Company Terminators? Well why the hell weren't they in the new box that came out today.
Because Tactical Terminators are crap and they are trying to get rid of old product under the auspices of a sale.
I said this in a post in 40k Discussion, and I feel like I need to reiterate it here- instead of dumping Terminator stock in these nice, cheaper bundles, why doesn't GW just do some damn playtesting and actually make the kits valuable? Or are they utterly convinced people only buy kits if they look cool?
I said this in a post in 40k Discussion, and I feel like I need to reiterate it here- instead of dumping Terminator stock in these nice, cheaper bundles, why doesn't GW just do some damn playtesting and actually make the kits valuable? Or are they utterly convinced people only buy kits if they look cool?
I imagine they are, and also that it's true. Putting aside the fact that Termies of all kinds are perfectly good units, I'd say many if not most GW customers but based on looks and/or fluff rather than competitive value. The online presence is but a fraction of the player base, and the competitive players are but a fraction of that.
Maybe I overread it, but do you get all weapon/kit options with the deathstorm box? Or only the options, that are shown(e.g. DC with normal backpacks or lib cybot, nids with other weapons?)
Paradigm, I still don't understand why they wouldn't be more interested in trying to make Termies a more popular option rules-wise. It's not about being competitive, even a casual player would like his or her units to fair well in the game (IG Rough Riders for a example). And while I agree that people will buy units because they look cool (I admit I misspoke about that point in my last post), it's obvious how many more kits would sell if units were considered to be good.
Look at DE Scourges- they're a great kit that was only slightly popular with the last codex cycle, but that has entirely turned about with the new codex. GW seems to recognize they have a problem regarding excess terminator stock, and are addressing it in a decent way. I'm just wondering why they wouldn't give some more thought as to why they have so much excess stock.
Accolade wrote: Paradigm, I still don't understand why they wouldn't be more interested in trying to make Termies a more popular option rules-wise.
The same reason they didn't update the Wraithlord, or the Carnifex (other than gun addition for all TMCs), or the Defiler. These are units that were very good back in the day and they got the stamp that says 'DONE'. They aren't going to change, but the Wraithknight, Tyrannofex and Forgefiend, and in the case of Terminators the Centurions, are all the 'modern' form of what these units used to be. These things were peak performance once and I just don't think anything is ever going to change with something that hit that high note.
But on the optimistic side of things, the Wolf Guard Terminators had some significant price drops. 9pts base cost down, and the Grey Knights, which are the best of the Terminators available, are down 7pts per model, and they have 3 grenades, psykers and Force weapons. But even then, I don't think they'd get a rules change and there's a whole thread about what SHOULD be done in the rules for them. At best we can hope for a points reduction.
Tho no one's suprised that Smaug is coming? No thread about it.
No.
Unlike GW's 40K releases, this one was utterly predictable.
I was surprised however, that some people actually believed random rumour-mongers claiming to have seen what is likely the best-guarded licensing contract in the entire miniatures gaming industry, between New Line and GW, "quoting" made up clauses about scale and what not, and with nothing to back up their claims on top of it.
If people believe claims like this, there's probably nothing they won't believe.
Tho no one's suprised that Smaug is coming? No thread about it.
No.
Unlike GW's 40K releases, this one was utterly predictable.
I was surprised however, that some people actually believed random rumour-mongers claiming to have seen what is likely the best-guarded licensing contract in the entire miniatures gaming industry, between New Line and GW, "quoting" made up clauses about scale and what not, and with nothing to back up their claims on top of it.
If people believe claims like this, there's probably nothing they won't believe.
Remember, the New Line agreement, in it's original form, was over ten years ago, and there was an element of communication from GW back then. It is quite possible that these things were talked about by people in a position to know a lot more freely back then.
Now, if the agreement was revised for the Hobbit movies to not include this sort of stuff, I agree, we would be in a much worse position to know.
Smaug is going to be ridiculously huge if he's in scale. It seems bizarre they're going down the road of pursuing that avenue as sales haven't been that good, considering they've still got those Goblin Town sets.
Then again a massive dragon/drake will probably sell well if the sculpt's good.
Given the whole Black Friday/Christmas combo going on at the moment, it's not hugely surprising - people buying gifts may either know the giftee doesn't want BA/'nids so bought something else, or not know they DO want those things so bought something else, and a lot of the folk who'd normally be camping the site to buy one for themselves/ebay will have just blown an obscene amount of money on electronics and home appliances.
If it doesn't fully sell out quickly I'd imagine they'll pretend it has and quietly shuffle any excess online stock into stores with orders to hard-sell them to clueless Christmas-shopping parents.
Medium of Death wrote: Smaug is going to be ridiculously huge if he's in scale. It seems bizarre they're going down the road of pursuing that avenue as sales haven't been that good, considering they've still got those Goblin Town sets.
Then again a massive dragon/drake will probably sell well if the sculpt's good.
A good dragon is one of the few models, being on a pretty tight hobby budget, I will buy even if it doesn't have a use in a game I play.
Depending on price, this could well be the first model I pre-order from GW, well, ever.
There's a lot of stars would need to align for that to happen.
Medium of Death wrote: Smaug is going to be ridiculously huge if he's in scale. It seems bizarre they're going down the road of pursuing that avenue as sales haven't been that good, considering they've still got those Goblin Town sets.
Then again a massive dragon/drake will probably sell well if the sculpt's good.
A good dragon is one of the few models, being on a pretty tight hobby budget, I will buy even if it doesn't have a use in a game I play.
Depending on price, this could well be the first model I pre-order from GW, well, ever.
There's a lot of stars would need to align for that to happen.
My hope would be that if they're real they're some kind of new unit - warden terminators or something - rather than up and handing over the few irreplaceable TDA suits to the death company for the lols
Been out of the loop for a while but ummm how long have the sanguinary guard, and death company kits been missing from the web site?
No codex either......I would be excited other than the fact I was about to make an order of sanguinary guard......I swear GW has my house bugged every time I go to order something it is mysteriously out of stock or gone.
So are they getting rid of sanguinary guard all together.....I would be very upset that would be 30 models with no use basicly no army left for me especially if assault squads are no longer troops.....not freaking out just really looking for the scoop so I can accept what is coming.
My hope would be that if they're real they're some kind of new unit - warden terminators or something - rather than up and handing over the few irreplaceable TDA suits to the death company for the lols
They only tell them that they are irreplacable so they take better care of them
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BlackRaven1987!! wrote: So are they getting rid of sanguinary guard all together.....I would be very upset that would be 30 models with no use basicly no army left for me especially if assault squads are no longer troops.....not freaking out just really looking for the scoop so I can accept what is coming.
I'm betting they get repacked into a 10 pack, like they did with Grey Knights
BlackRaven1987!! wrote: So are they getting rid of sanguinary guard all together.....I would be very upset that would be 30 models with no use basicly no army left for me especially if assault squads are no longer troops.....not freaking out just really looking for the scoop so I can accept what is coming.
I fully expect that the kits have simply been pulled as they'll be re-issued eventually with the new 32mm bases instead of the 25's that everyone currently uses.
GW have not 'squated' a unit that has an actualy model kit for years and year now... (Sly Marbo being the sole exception!) The only stuff getting yanked from books are the things that didn't have models in production yet, though with the current Tyranid wave, we've even seen the return of a pulled unit option with the bug drop pod.
Motograter wrote: I imagine the sanguinary guard and death company will all be in boxes of 10 from now on
Okay, WHY would they pack Sanguinary Guard in boxes of 10 when the unit size is 5?
Don`t recall saying they would, Its an opinion. I could be wrong who knows. Currently they are taken in units of 5 but whats to say they wont be 10 man squads in the new book (unless you know something we dont?)
It could also be other reasons as mentioned above, ie repacked with new bases, to sell more models etc. To be fair it matter little unless they are hugely improved anyway in the new book
Motograter wrote: I imagine the sanguinary guard and death company will all be in boxes of 10 from now on
Okay, WHY would they pack Sanguinary Guard in boxes of 10 when the unit size is 5?
Don`t recall saying they would, Its an opinion. I could be wrong who knows. Currently they are taken in units of 5 but whats to say they wont be 10 man squads in the new book (unless you know something we dont?)
It could also be other reasons as mentioned above, ie repacked with new bases, to sell more models etc. To be fair it matter little unless they are hugely improved anyway in the new book
It is not an opinion, it is speculation, and how you phrased it was not "well, maybe this will happen" it was "I bet this will happen." If speculation and opinion are the same to you, I encourage you to better define both for yourself.
I also find it amusing that you ask if I know something you don't, when the change you are "imagining" would require a change to current unit size. That means what you've said, especially with SG, has the same line of reasoning as if I was to say "Sanguinary priests will probably come in packs of 6 because I bet they upped the unit size to 6." That's not an opinion, now is it?
Simply put, if you're going to toss out wild speculations, have some reasoning for it. "Because who knows?" is invalid reasoning.
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ceorron wrote: What am I missing? Why is the new blood angels tactical squad on bigger bases???
It appears many models are going to be changing base sizes in the near future.
Motograter wrote: I imagine the sanguinary guard and death company will all be in boxes of 10 from now on
Okay, WHY would they pack Sanguinary Guard in boxes of 10 when the unit size is 5?
Don`t recall saying they would, Its an opinion. I could be wrong who knows. Currently they are taken in units of 5 but whats to say they wont be 10 man squads in the new book (unless you know something we dont?)
It could also be other reasons as mentioned above, ie repacked with new bases, to sell more models etc. To be fair it matter little unless they are hugely improved anyway in the new book
It is not an opinion, it is speculation, and how you phrased it was not "well, maybe this will happen" it was "I bet this will happen." If speculation and opinion are the same to you, I encourage you to better define both for yourself.
I also find it amusing that you ask if I know something you don't, when the change you are "imagining" would require a change to current unit size. That means what you've said, especially with SG, has the same line of reasoning as if I was to say "Sanguinary priests will probably come in packs of 6 because I bet they upped the unit size to 6." That's not an opinion, now is it?
Simply put, if you're going to toss out wild speculations, have some reasoning for it. "Because who knows?" is invalid reasoning.
That`s your opinion.
Its the internet kid. Who cares lol
I`m glad that was amusing to you, but I don`t care. I see you never answered though. So kinda like your comment in reply meh.
Again its the internet. Why should I have a reason for saying something lol. I said something, you seem butt hurt. Do feel free to get over yourself cos someone on the internet doesn`t have a valid reason for speaking lmao
angelofvengeance wrote: So the Sanguinary Guard and Death Company kits have disappeared from the Blood Angels section on GW GB..updated kit incoming?!
It's not like we've spend an entire page discussing that exact thing.
The 'update' is probably either bigger boxes, which I doubt, or to give them bigger bases, which is more likely in my opinion.
angelofvengeance wrote: So the Sanguinary Guard and Death Company kits have disappeared from the Blood Angels section on GW GB..updated kit incoming?!
It's not like we've spend an entire page discussing that exact thing.
The 'update' is probably either bigger boxes, which I doubt, or to give them bigger bases, which is more likely in my opinion.
Pulled out a magnifying glass on the new white dwarf. Blood talons are indeed str x2, ap2, shred. Magna grapples got an interesting change. Now, and UNIT containing one or more magna grapples has the move through cover special rule and may reroll failed charges against vehicles.
Sidstyler wrote: Oh, that's just as good, because BA-specific terminators are another kit that no one was asking for. Especially since everyone who wants them has the SH termies for that already.
I've got Space Hulk and I would love a Blood Angel specific terminator set. I was hoping for a new termie unit to be honest. In my opinion Space Hulk is the reason why we should our own termie unit. I was thinking something like mixed squads between tactical termies and assault termies. Perhaps even getting one the Space Hulk Sergeants as an entry in the codex.
troa wrote: Given you're so cynical Sidstyler, I'd like to point out they don't have the CC variant represented very well in SH. Given it's probably an easy thing to make them if they do, why is it such a big deal anyway?
DC terminators also don't make any sense given the rarity of terminator armor *and* the purpose of DC (which is to die). I personally don't mind more terminators even if they are a functionally useless unit..
The game is about forging a narrative. I guess you could put a narrative together that the terminator squad falls to the black rage after the battle begins. We already know from the books that's it's possible for a whole squad to go mental at a moments notice. If you want to stick strictly to the fluff then I suppose you could just paint them red and inform your opponent that they fell to the black rage without any time to repaint their armour black.
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warboss wrote: It makes no sense fluffwise. Terminator armor is slow and cumbersome in the fluff and giving it to crazed lunatics would only frustrate them, not make them better. Each suit is also a relic of the chapter thousands of years old in most cases with a tiny piece of the emperor's own armor in it and they wouldn't/shouldn't hand one over to a looney who would jump off a cliff to chase down a xenos damaging or destroying it.
Well they get visions of the Horus heresy. I don't think that necessarily means they are unaware of the armour they are wearing.
Sidstyler wrote: Oh, that's just as good, because BA-specific terminators are another kit that no one was asking for. Especially since everyone who wants them has the SH termies for that already.
I've got Space Hulk and I would love a Blood Angel specific terminator set. I was hoping for a new termie unit to be honest. In my opinion Space Hulk is the reason why we should our own termie unit. I was thinking something like mixed squads between tactical termies and assault termies. Perhaps even getting one the Space Hulk Sergeants as an entry in the codex.
So what you're saying is that you want Deathwing Terminators, except Blood Angel-y?
From my VERY limited understanding of Blood Angels, just getting into them when Shields of Baal was announced because my lovely Tyranids need something to chew on, the Black Rage means the Marine is removed from his squad and put in special black armor, no matter if he was a Devastator, Terminator or a driver of a Predator tank. The Black Rage isn't the Red Thirst, and the Thirst is what appears on the tabletop for a squad, right? The Rage is what is seen at muster and the Marine is removed from his squad.
So a Terminator squad just wouldn't fit at all. It's not even about painting their armor since they are given special suicide armor before they go out, right?
th3maninblak wrote: Pulled out a magnifying glass on the new white dwarf. Blood talons are indeed str x2, ap2, shred. Magna grapples got an interesting change. Now, and UNIT containing one or more magna grapples has the move through cover special rule and may reroll failed charges against vehicles.
troa wrote: The kits on the whole had bad mold lines, the packs are just the worst part for me. The jump packs I've had issues with are newer (the past 2 years or so) since that is when I started 40k.
The newer DC packs fit together almost perfectly by comparison.
True, but I would probably use the DC jump packs for my blood angels now anyway for the Blood Angel iconography. If they did a new Assault Marines box they would need to make it viable for all Space Marine chapters. They may already plan a new Assault Marine box at a later point for Space marines considering how they seem to be operating now. i.e. Releasing new kits outside codex release.
mitch_rifle wrote: Another marine box? it's cool and all but for the love of god please give chaos some love
the sculpts are old and the aesthetic and design are just horrid
Please lord kirby gives us some fething chaos stuff
Chaos comment in a Blood Angel thread, seriously?
Well, Blood Angels are just a short step from Heresy
LIES!!!!!!!!!! No we're not. Chaos may try but they will always be unsuccessful.
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Accolade wrote: Paradigm, I still don't understand why they wouldn't be more interested in trying to make Termies a more popular option rules-wise. It's not about being competitive, even a casual player would like his or her units to fair well in the game (IG Rough Riders for a example). And while I agree that people will buy units because they look cool (I admit I misspoke about that point in my last post), it's obvious how many more kits would sell if units were considered to be good.
Look at DE Scourges- they're a great kit that was only slightly popular with the last codex cycle, but that has entirely turned about with the new codex. GW seems to recognize they have a problem regarding excess terminator stock, and are addressing it in a decent way. I'm just wondering why they wouldn't give some more thought as to why they have so much excess stock.
Perhaps allowing two heavy/special weapons in a 5 man unit of tactical termies would help them out. Just imagine 8 assault cannon shots coming from a 5 man unit.
DarthOvious wrote: I've got Space Hulk and I would love a Blood Angel specific terminator set. I was hoping for a new termie unit to be honest. In my opinion Space Hulk is the reason why we should our own termie unit. I was thinking something like mixed squads between tactical termies and assault termies. Perhaps even getting one the Space Hulk Sergeants as an entry in the codex..
While in the surface more Chapter-specific boxes are a nice idea, the big problem with it is that GW can't keep their full range on the shelf now. The more new boxes they add, the worse that gets.
We're rapidly approaching the point where having any of the range in B&M stores is largely pointless, as people are going to have to pick up most of their stuff from the GW webstore anyway.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: what with all this Blood Angels talk I wonder if now is the time to sell my old BA collection that sits and collects dust >.>
Right after a new codex comes out is usually a slightly better time to sell. The length that boost lasts is frequently dependent on how good the reception is for the changes in the army with the new book. If you don't want to or enjoy playing BA then I'd say sell. Just don't do it because of something as trivial as a possible base size change for one model type (assuming that factors into your decision).
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: what with all this Blood Angels talk I wonder if now is the time to sell my old BA collection that sits and collects dust >.>
Right after a new codex comes out is usually a slightly better time to sell. The length that boost lasts is frequently dependent on how good the reception is for the changes in the army with the new book. If you don't want to or enjoy playing BA then I'd say sell. Just don't do it because of something as trivial as a possible base size change for one model type (assuming that factors into your decision).
Im a wolves player not a fan of anything the BA have or do tbh just have a good start to a BA army
Captain Karlean WS6 just over 150pts
Terminator Armour with Iron Halo, storm bolter, and Relic of Baal: melee, concussive, master crafted, specialist weapon and unwieldy.
Strategic Genius: +1 seize the initiative, and can re-roll any reserve roll
BlackRaven1987!! wrote: So are they getting rid of sanguinary guard all together.....I would be very upset that would be 30 models with no use basicly no army left for me especially if assault squads are no longer troops.....not freaking out just really looking for the scoop so I can accept what is coming.
Motograter wrote: I imagine the sanguinary guard and death company will all be in boxes of 10 from now on
Okay, WHY would they pack Sanguinary Guard in boxes of 10 when the unit size is 5?
Don`t recall saying they would, Its an opinion. I could be wrong who knows. Currently they are taken in units of 5 but whats to say they wont be 10 man squads in the new book (unless you know something we dont?)
It could also be other reasons as mentioned above, ie repacked with new bases, to sell more models etc. To be fair it matter little unless they are hugely improved anyway in the new book
It is not an opinion, it is speculation, and how you phrased it was not "well, maybe this will happen" it was "I bet this will happen." If speculation and opinion are the same to you, I encourage you to better define both for yourself.
I also find it amusing that you ask if I know something you don't, when the change you are "imagining" would require a change to current unit size. That means what you've said, especially with SG, has the same line of reasoning as if I was to say "Sanguinary priests will probably come in packs of 6 because I bet they upped the unit size to 6." That's not an opinion, now is it?
Simply put, if you're going to toss out wild speculations, have some reasoning for it. "Because who knows?" is invalid reasoning.
To be fair you don't know either. It is just a possible reason why such a thing is happening. You yourself are in fact just speculating at this point. like he is.
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ceorron wrote: What am I missing? Why is the new blood angels tactical squad on bigger bases???
It appears many models are going to be changing base sizes in the near future.
"it appears" is also speculation by your own standards. Perhaps you could define it it as your opinion.
Sidstyler wrote: Oh, that's just as good, because BA-specific terminators are another kit that no one was asking for. Especially since everyone who wants them has the SH termies for that already.
I've got Space Hulk and I would love a Blood Angel specific terminator set. I was hoping for a new termie unit to be honest. In my opinion Space Hulk is the reason why we should our own termie unit. I was thinking something like mixed squads between tactical termies and assault termies. Perhaps even getting one the Space Hulk Sergeants as an entry in the codex.
So what you're saying is that you want Deathwing Terminators, except Blood Angel-y?
I suppose so, I know it's what Dark Angels do, but I think we have precedent to show we do it as well. Wouldn't be bothered if we got something unique either though, like a new termie unit of some sort with new equipment, but the former would certainly make complete sense to me.
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SharkoutofWata wrote: From my VERY limited understanding of Blood Angels, just getting into them when Shields of Baal was announced because my lovely Tyranids need something to chew on, the Black Rage means the Marine is removed from his squad and put in special black armor, no matter if he was a Devastator, Terminator or a driver of a Predator tank. The Black Rage isn't the Red Thirst, and the Thirst is what appears on the tabletop for a squad, right? The Rage is what is seen at muster and the Marine is removed from his squad.
So a Terminator squad just wouldn't fit at all. It's not even about painting their armor since they are given special suicide armor before they go out, right?
Not quite right. The black rage is not recovered from. It's a permanent decent into madness. The red thirst is when the blood angels get a bit over zealous but they are not lost. Those that fall to the black rage have visions of the Horus heresy.
DarthOvious wrote: I've got Space Hulk and I would love a Blood Angel specific terminator set. I was hoping for a new termie unit to be honest. In my opinion Space Hulk is the reason why we should our own termie unit. I was thinking something like mixed squads between tactical termies and assault termies. Perhaps even getting one the Space Hulk Sergeants as an entry in the codex..
While in the surface more Chapter-specific boxes are a nice idea, the big problem with it is that GW can't keep their full range on the shelf now. The more new boxes they add, the worse that gets.
We're rapidly approaching the point where having any of the range in B&M stores is largely pointless, as people are going to have to pick up most of their stuff from the GW webstore anyway.
It's a good point you make. At the same time though they need to make new kits to interest buyers who have the other models. As soon as the new stuff becomes old, then it kind of has a habit of not selling quite a lot. I think this is why GW try to aim at attracting new players. In order to try to sell the older kits to some degree.
All it seems GW is doing is bringing the Blood Angels line up to what the Dark Angels line is. Before they only really had two unique boxed troops, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard. Whereas Dark Angels have Deathwing Terminators, Deathwing Command/Knights, Ravenwing Squad, Ravenwing Command/Knights, and their flyer. So adding a few more boxes of Blood Angels stuff is welcome enough for me. Hopefully the kits will be dual function like the Command/Knights kits for Dark Angels are though. Never know, if that Tactical Squad comes with a set of Death Company shoulder pauldrons, I might get more than just one or two. Same goes for if they make a dual function Assault Squad/Jump Pack Death Company.
Frankenberry wrote: Are you fething serious right now? The damn thing is sold out already? I JUST saw it come on the site!?
So help me god, if I see someone selling four of them for 100% increased prices I'll kick a child.
Hehe, the moment I heard about the box on sale yesterday (on this site), I called up my FLGS and told them to order it for me. It was about 9:15pm, but I'd be damned if I didn't get one.
Frankenberry wrote: Are you fething serious right now? The damn thing is sold out already? I JUST saw it come on the site!?
So help me god, if I see someone selling four of them for 100% increased prices I'll kick a child.
Hehe, the moment I heard about the box on sale yesterday (on this site), I called up my FLGS and told them to order it for me. It was about 9:15pm, but I'd be damned if I didn't get one.
Yeaaaaa....... that's why as soon as the pics confirmed this was coming out , I drove straight to my FLGS and put my order in. Didn't think they were going to last long. actually ..... I was slightly surprised they lasted as long as they did. However I think others on here were right about that having more to do with Black Friday/Christmas shopping/Time of the year for the states period.
Quarterdime wrote: Those new tacticals look ballin'. I was thinking that they should have gone with terminators, but tacticals are a good place to go, too.
...they look the same as death company with bolters only painted red.
arnt they too blinged to be tacticals? they look more like veterans to me.
it will be hard to tell what's what. bling everywhere. the only thing differentiating anything will be the paint job.
Wow. We're actually getting a codex with new models and people are STILL being negative.
So Korlean's hammer is just master crafted (lame) but his warlord trait (strategic genius) is AWESOME. +1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserve rolls? Yes please!
th3maninblak wrote: Wow. We're actually getting a codex with new models and people are STILL being negative.
So Korlean's hammer is just master crafted (lame) but his warlord trait (strategic genius) is AWESOME. +1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserve rolls? Yes please!
not negative, it's just a fact. sorry im not too fussed up about more ropes, blood drops and loincloths. yawn.
hopefully the new assault marines will sell us with dynamic, vicious jumping poses instead of caking on more of the same old generic bling.
th3maninblak wrote: Wow. We're actually getting a codex with new models and people are STILL being negative.
So Korlean's hammer is just master crafted (lame) but his warlord trait (strategic genius) is AWESOME. +1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserve rolls? Yes please!
+1
i like what i see so far.
everyone had BA pegged as a one week release with no new models. Anything new is better than nothing
plus that warlord trait is good, and the primaris power (quickening) that is rumored (WC1, gain fleet, +D3 to initiative and attacks) is fluffy and looks good for in game purposes as well.
th3maninblak wrote: Wow. We're actually getting a codex with new models and people are STILL being negative.
So Korlean's hammer is just master crafted (lame) but his warlord trait (strategic genius) is AWESOME. +1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserve rolls? Yes please!
+1
i like what i see so far.
everyone had BA pegged as a one week release with no new models. Anything new is better than nothing
plus that warlord trait is good, and the primaris power (quickening) that is rumored (WC1, gain fleet, +D3 to initiative and attacks) is fluffy and looks good for in game purposes as well.
im excited for this release
Completely agree, if those rumors hold out then they are pretty darn good, traits/powers that are fluffy and useful.
If the rest of the warlord traits are half this good, ill be thrilled. My only complaint with the quickening is that 1 model with fleet in a unit is kinda pointless.
th3maninblak wrote: If the rest of the warlord traits are half this good, ill be thrilled. My only complaint with the quickening is that 1 model with fleet in a unit is kinda pointless.
True. You could give it to mephiston...
Unless they change it to allow him to join squads.
Kelly502 wrote: Absolutely nothing on GW US for Blood Angels other than 5 electronic books.
The only things showing on the U.K. store are the Blood Angel characters, Blood Angel specific vehicles I.e Furioso, Baal Pred. The old battle force, paintsets, digital books.
Interestingly Deathstorm is still up for pre orders, I thought I saw people saying it was out of stock already?
There is no infantry boxes on there though, no tacticals, death co, sanguinary guard OR Assualt marines!
arnt they too blinged to be tacticals? they look more like veterans to me.
It's in the Blood Angels codex, Tacticals are veterans. They may not the stat line, but they only become a Tactical Squad member after years of learning how to deal with blood lust on an Assault Sqaud.
FIRST CAPTAIN KARLAEN Arenos Karlaen is a wily Blood Angels veteran with hundreds of years of service to the Chapter. He is the current master of the ‘Archangels’, the Chapter’s 1st Company, and many consider him the greatest battle leader among the angelic host, save Dante only. In his long service Karlaen has accrued victories over almost every enemy of mankind and, as Hive Fleet Leviathan looms large in the Cryptus System, Dante has turned to his strong right hand again. Karlaen has fought the Tyranid menace many times before and owns several of the Blood Angels’ greatest victories against the Great Devourer. Whether wielding his relic thunder hammer face to face against the foe aboard a space hulk or a beleaguered world, or directing the wrath of the fleet in a decisive battle, Karlaen’s tactical nous and controlled rage have proven a match for the Hive Mind over and over again.
Captain Karlaen ,the greatest Blood Angel you never heard of
th3maninblak wrote: Wow. We're actually getting a codex with new models and people are STILL being negative.
So Korlean's hammer is just master crafted (lame) but his warlord trait (strategic genius) is AWESOME. +1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserve rolls? Yes please!
Not so much negative as....disappointed? A Blood Angel tactical squad is pretty much the last possible thing I would EVER buy for my army for a few reasons.
1. I play a custom chapter of marines, so I use which ever codex I feel like, whenever I'd like. The Blood Angel iconography bits are wasted on me.
2. Tactical squads are not good, and I don't see the BA codex of all things changing that.
3. If/When I use the BA codex, it's for jump pack based marines and fast/AV13 vehicle spam...it's the only thing the previous codex actually did that the others didn't do.
4. Who in the actual hell would buy tactical marines at full price!? They've been in literally every starter box and are the core unit of the most popular army. They are cheap as dirt on Ebay, and paying $43 american for the BA bits (assuming you want them at all) instead of literally $10-$15 on Ebay is a poor choice IMO. You cannot GIVE tactical marines away, let alone charge $43 per box for them.
5. Tactical marines are bland....bland as hell. As a core unit for the most popular army, you face them more often than probably any other unit in the entire game. Bland.
I've got 40+ bolter boys sitting unpainted (and 40+ more painted) that were given to me for free that I've been converting into sternguard, LotD, Honor Guard and what ever else I need marine bodies for. If I really REALLY wanted the BA bits, I'd buy Death Company squads (possibly second hand) and use those bits because then you are getting an Iconic BA unit (DC and/or ASM) and the bits you need, not some piece of crap tactical squad you can get for a third of the price elsewhere.
Is it better than nothing? For me, absolutely not....this is nothing to me. Where is the recast characters? Where are the NEW units? Where is something to get me EXCITED to play with/against? Because tactical marines are not getting me pumped for a new BA codex.
As for the character, well, he has a gaping hole in his gear and stats. No dual weapon means no +1 attack, only a 5+ invul, terminator armor limits his transport and deployment options and no eternal warrior makes him a crappy duelist. He's literally the personification of a tactical terminator in special character form. IF some manner of deep strike heavy army is viable, his abilities aren't complete garbage, but he's not doing anything a comm relay and Coteaz wouldn't do for you, and better, while not chewing up another potential warlord trait. I don't see myself ever using this guy....he's basically Tycho/Astaroth mark 2.
I've got my fingers crossed the codex will be awesome, but the last handful of releases have not exactly WOW'ed me, so expectation are low at the moment.
Kelly502 wrote: Absolutely nothing on GW US for Blood Angels other than 5 electronic books.
The only things showing on the U.K. store are the Blood Angel characters, Blood Angel specific vehicles I.e Furioso, Baal Pred. The old battle force, paintsets, digital books.
Interestingly Deathstorm is still up for pre orders, I thought I saw people saying it was out of stock already?
There is no infantry boxes on there though, no tacticals, death co, sanguinary guard OR Assualt marines!
It's out here in the US. Independent retailers will have some I'm sure.
Except he has a 4++, not a 5+. Iron halos are a thing. Beyond that, for 155 points you get a sick warlord trait, a mastercrafted hammer, and his special blood yell thingy. Seems pretty good to me.
Not sure if it's worth the whole effort.
BA have the worst codex atm.
Let's see if they will get playable again.
I'd wait for the new codex before ordering the box set.
Not sure if it's worth the whole effort.
BA have the worst codex atm.
Let's see if they will get playable again.
I'd wait for the new codex before ordering the box set.
It cant really get any worse. If you love the army, buy the box.
I'll certainly be picking up a box of the BAtac marines, and probably another after they're painted. I there's there's definitely room for tac marines in BA armies.
casvalremdeikun wrote: if that Tactical Squad comes with a set of Death Company shoulder pauldrons, I might get more than just one or two. Same goes for if they make a dual function Assault Squad/Jump Pack Death Company.
For a moment I thought that would be a cool way of doing it – a tactical and assault box with which you could make either standard or Death Company models. Except, Death Company are very assaulty, so kinda need to have the running / dynamic poses of assault marines. The standing poses of the tactical marines don't work as Death Company for me.
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evildrcheese wrote: I'll certainly be picking up a box of the BAtac marines, and probably another after they're painted. I there's there's definitely room for tac marines in BA armies.
D
I'll be getting them too. I'm not fussed about Shield of Baal but I do like the look of the tac squad kit. I just hope they do something with the codex to make them appealing game-wise, partly because I already have one tac squad painted which I thought I might never use in favour of ASM / Razorback spam.
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th3maninblak wrote: Except he has a 4++, not a 5+. Iron halos are a thing. Beyond that, for 155 points you get a sick warlord trait, a mastercrafted hammer, and his special blood yell thingy. Seems pretty good to me.
If I were to run Karlaen I would definitely use the Lorenzo model and just swap the sword for a hammer.
Frankenberry wrote: Are you fething serious right now? The damn thing is sold out already? I JUST saw it come on the site!?
So help me god, if I see someone selling four of them for 100% increased prices I'll kick a child.
Really? We get picked on in highschool, we get bullied and here you are ready to kick a child who is innocent and has nothing to do with it. Joke or not, it's not funny.
Frankenberry wrote: Are you fething serious right now? The damn thing is sold out already? I JUST saw it come on the site!?
So help me god, if I see someone selling four of them for 100% increased prices I'll kick a child.
Really? We get picked on in highschool, we get bullied and here you are ready to kick a child who is innocent and has nothing to do with it. Joke or not, it's not funny.
We are geeks and nerds. This is how we grow up?
He'll hate me.
I ordered a copy and have sold the Termie Captain for £20, The Broodlord for £20 and the death company for £12 so far on eBay due to ship when I get my own copy.
With a bit of luck I'll make close to 100% profit so I can buy another set before they sell out, Then sell the Nid stuff to hopefully make my cost back on the second and wallah, blood angels, mini rulebook and campaign book for free! I know it's frowned upon and to be honest I do understand people who will be annoyed by that, but well, I don't have much disposable income so need to make it count!
I wonder if the DC termies we are hearing rumours about are not exactly DC termies, but the rumoured special termies composed of individuals who have overcome/survived the black rage.
Might explain why they are souped up with rare equipment as they would be special.
I'm so jumping on this bandwagon. I've already sold all my miscellaneous minis, now I'm thinking of offing the Mantis Warriors I'm working on in favour of a blow out on Blood angels.
I'm not normally so impressionable, but I really love DC! I could sell my airbrush too. Hmmm.
Still, Dark Angels and Tyranids taught me to wait for the book to be out before I get too excited.
Davylove21 wrote: I'm so jumping on this bandwagon. I've already sold all my miscellaneous minis, now I'm thinking of offing the Mantis Warriors I'm working on in favour of a blow out on Blood angels.
I'm not normally so impressionable, but I really love DC! I could sell my airbrush too. Hmmm.
Still, Dark Angels and Tyranids taught me to wait for the book to be out before I get too excited.
th3maninblak wrote: Wow. We're actually getting a codex with new models and people are STILL being negative.
So Korlean's hammer is just master crafted (lame) but his warlord trait (strategic genius) is AWESOME. +1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserve rolls? Yes please!
4. Who in the actual hell would buy tactical marines at full price!? They've been in literally every starter box and are the core unit of the most popular army. They are cheap as dirt on Ebay, and paying $43 american for the BA bits (assuming you want them at all) instead of literally $10-$15 on Ebay is a poor choice IMO. You cannot GIVE tactical marines away, let alone charge $43 per box for them.
Well people wanted a new Assault MArine box so they could get an update kit. It didn't matter to them that a lot of Blood Angel players probably own a lot of Assault Marines to begin with. I know that SM already have a Tactical box but we can already use the DC box to make assault marines as well. I'm sure some people will buy them. If tacticals are a good choice in the new codex then I will get some.
5. Tactical marines are bland....bland as hell. As a core unit for the most popular army, you face them more often than probably any other unit in the entire game. Bland.
From the picture on white dwarf it looks like they will get a heavy flamer. If you are able to take a hand flamer on the sergeant, a normal flamer as well as a heavy flamer for the heavy slot then I can see this squad being useful. Drop pod them in and you get 3 flamer templates on the squads you want to take out. As a Tau player as well this is an effective unit for taking out my pathfinders.
Is it better than nothing? For me, absolutely not....this is nothing to me. Where is the recast characters? Where are the NEW units? Where is something to get me EXCITED to play with/against? Because tactical marines are not getting me pumped for a new BA codex.
We will need to wait and see. GW's new release methods mean there might be something else for us down the road. It makes sense to make re-sculpts after release like they did with the Tyranid Venonthropes, because they already have a model with rules, so it's just a case of updating the model and third party companies aren't going to infringe on their IP. I understand it's the same kind of deal with the tacticals since we already have the SM ones, but still I think it's good to get personalised tacticals
As for the character, well, he has a gaping hole in his gear and stats. No dual weapon means no +1 attack, only a 5+ invul, terminator armor limits his transport and deployment options and no eternal warrior makes him a crappy duelist. He's literally the personification of a tactical terminator in special character form. IF some manner of deep strike heavy army is viable, his abilities aren't complete garbage, but he's not doing anything a comm relay and Coteaz wouldn't do for you, and better, while not chewing up another potential warlord trait. I don't see myself ever using this guy....he's basically Tycho/Astaroth mark 2.
Well not to nitpick but he has a 4+ invulnerable because he has an iron halo. Eternal Warrior is also a rare rule to get really and we can probably only expect at most a few options in our codex to get it.
wuestenfux wrote: How about these new books?
Flesh of Cretacia which is about Flesh Tearers.
128 pages and 20 €.
Sounds like a short Math Graduate Text.
5 more pages than when it was first released
As for death company bits being included in the tac box as the death company already have a plastic kit I wouldn't think they would be included as bits in a tac squad when they have a newish box. They are from what it looks like being repacked currently to either be full 10 man squad or still 5 man but have the new 32mm bases included in their box
JuniorRS13 wrote: New tacticals gives a bit more diversity, more options and i guess a bit more versatility to the BA. more options is always a welcome sight for me.
Heavy flamer!
GRAV GUN !!
Which means their bikes will probably get them, and their veterens, etc...
What grav gun?
Only codex marines got them AFAIK, and honestly I like the fact that not every marine codex has the same stuff available to it, makes the fact you got 5 different loyalist marine armies not feel as overdone.
BoomWolf wrote: What grav gun?
Only codex marines got them AFAIK, and honestly I like the fact that not every marine codex has the same stuff available to it, makes the fact you got 5 different loyalist marine armies not feel as overdone.
That grav gun. Blood Angels being able to do the Grav thing could be very powerful, as Grav is a really powerful aspect of the current Space Marine book.
th3maninblak wrote: Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.
So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.
GW needs to make one step forward to realize a playable BA army.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I wonder if the DC termies we are hearing rumours about are not exactly DC termies, but the rumoured special termies composed of individuals who have overcome/survived the black rage.
Might explain why they are souped up with rare equipment as they would be special.
This is waaaaay preferable to Death Company Terminators, but overcoming the Black Rage is supposed to be exceedingly rare... like, isn't Mephiston the only character to do it?
th3maninblak wrote: Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.
So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.
GW needs to make one step forward to realize a playable BA army.
The real interesting thing will be whether or not they get Centurions. If not, then Grav-Bikers will be the only real grav units seeing any use... I mean, who takes grav tacticals?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I wonder if the DC termies we are hearing rumours about are not exactly DC termies, but the rumoured special termies composed of individuals who have overcome/survived the black rage.
Might explain why they are souped up with rare equipment as they would be special.
This is waaaaay preferable to Death Company Terminators, but overcoming the Black Rage is supposed to be exceedingly rare... like, isn't Mephiston the only character to do it?
th3maninblak wrote: Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.
So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.
GW needs to make one step forward to realize a playable BA army.
The real interesting thing will be whether or not they get Centurions. If not, then Grav-Bikers will be the only real grav units seeing any use... I mean, who takes grav tacticals?
What I like is that by the fluff Mephiston should have been killed like all other Librarians when he fell to the Black Rage.
I asked for 2 things from the new Blood Angels Codex, Grav weapons and Centurions.
Grav Guns ! Check !
Centurions ? I guess we'll have to wait 3 weeks to find out.
Why do I care ? I have 9 Centurions waiting to find out what chapter they belong to.
If BA get fast attack drop pods like Space Wolves, and I don't see why they shouldn't, and I'll be doing a little happy dance.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I wonder if the DC termies we are hearing rumours about are not exactly DC termies, but the rumoured special termies composed of individuals who have overcome/survived the black rage.
Might explain why they are souped up with rare equipment as they would be special.
This is waaaaay preferable to Death Company Terminators, but overcoming the Black Rage is supposed to be exceedingly rare... like, isn't Mephiston the only character to do it?
Pretty much. IIRC Lemartes fluff says he is still in its throes so I think Mephiston is the only one to actually come out of it. I agree that "survivors" of the Black Rage would be preferable to the chapter giving its most valuable armor to a bunch of loonies ready to chase a grot they think is Horus himself into an erupting volcano. I'm not a fan of the "survivor" fluff as I prefer having mephiston's big mystery being that he is the first/only but I prefer it to an actual Death Company terminator unit. And this is coming from a guy who actually started his BA army in 3rd edition specifically to use the Death Company army rules!
BoomWolf wrote: What grav gun?
Only codex marines got them AFAIK, and honestly I like the fact that not every marine codex has the same stuff available to it, makes the fact you got 5 different loyalist marine armies not feel as overdone.
That grav gun. Blood Angels being able to do the Grav thing could be very powerful, as Grav is a really powerful aspect of the current Space Marine book.
Intresting, not the picture I've seen.
Honestly, not a fan of this. I was hoping they will go for a "difference between codcies" path, like the wolves have no grav, and the BA got more flamer options.
Eldercaveman wrote: What I like is that by the fluff Mephiston should have been killed like all other Librarians when he fell to the Black Rage.
Astorath didn't exist when mephiston fell to the black rage. Nothing to see here......
And even if he did, wasn't mephiston basically trapped under tons of rubble? It's not like he was angrily shadow boxing Horus in the middle of a field until Astorath came around.
Other than souped up engines on vehicles, death company and the sanguinary guard, Blood Angels are a very codex compliant chapter, much more so than DA or SW.
It makes sense they would get grav guns on fluff reasons alone. Obviously balance wise it may not be so hot for the meta, though, we don't know the rules yet, grav guns could be the edge they need to compete for all we know as of yet.
Though, I think I'd prefer the SW to have had grav guns rather than all the stupid freezing guns they have. And DA should have them also.
Honestly, not a fan of this. I was hoping they will go for a "difference between codcies" path, like the wolves have no grav, and the BA got more flamer options.
Space Wolves never really followed the Codex Astartes teachings, Blood Angels always have.
Blood Angels have more assault marines because of the Red Thirst.
Blood Angels have Death Company because of the Black Rage.
Blood Angels have Sanguinary Guard because of Black Rage and the need to carry Sanguinis Blood
I don't know why Blood Angels alone have Librarian Dreadnuaghts. I suspect it was something they contemplating for all marines and decided to try it out in the BA codex, and then never went anywhere with it.
I would not at all mind if "survivors of Black Rage" became a thing. BA have been searching for an end to it for millennia. Perhaps they are beginning to find it. A glimmer of hope for the chapter is a lot more interesting than preserving Mephiston's special snowflake status.
This codex has me more excited than any non-model release since the Turd Edition (6th) dropped.
I was under the impression that people succumbed to the black rage before a battle and their existing armor was just painted black, with some extra crap tacked on.
I don't see them having special terminator armor for the Death Company, I just see members of the first company ( terminators) succumbing to the Black Rage on the eve of battle.
adamsouza wrote: I was under the impression that people succumbed to the black rage before a battle and their existing armor was just painted black, with some extra crap tacked on.
I don't see them having special terminator armor for the Death Company, I just see members of the first company ( terminators) succumbing to the Black Rage on the eve of battle.
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Olgerth Istaarn wrote: I would not at all mind if "survivors of Black Rage" became a thing. BA have been searching for an end to it for millennia. Perhaps they are beginning to find it. A glimmer of hope for the chapter is a lot more interesting than preserving Mephiston's special snowflake status.
This codex has me more excited than any non-model release since the Turd Edition (6th) dropped.
The cure for the Red Thirst is apparently what Shield of Baal: Deathstorm is about. The planetary governor of Phodia is supposedly the key to a cure for the chapter. Captain Karlaen leads a team to recover the governor no matter the cost.
The WDW this weekend suggests that we MAY be getting some terminator love for the sons of sanguinius. The 1st company is called "The Arch-angels". Who knows, we may get some blinged up terminators?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I wonder if the DC termies we are hearing rumours about are not exactly DC termies, but the rumoured special termies composed of individuals who have overcome/survived the black rage.
Might explain why they are souped up with rare equipment as they would be special.
This is waaaaay preferable to Death Company Terminators, but overcoming the Black Rage is supposed to be exceedingly rare... like, isn't Mephiston the only character to do it?
th3maninblak wrote: Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.
So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.
GW needs to make one step forward to realize a playable BA army.
The real interesting thing will be whether or not they get Centurions. If not, then Grav-Bikers will be the only real grav units seeing any use... I mean, who takes grav tacticals?
What I like is that by the fluff Mephiston should have been killed like all other Librarians when he fell to the Black Rage.
He fell to it when trapped under tons of rubble. He only escaped by his superstrength from being cured of it, and by then didn't need executing.
casvalremdeikun wrote:
adamsouza wrote: I was under the impression that people succumbed to the black rage before a battle and their existing armor was just painted black, with some extra crap tacked on.
I don't see them having special terminator armor for the Death Company, I just see members of the first company ( terminators) succumbing to the Black Rage on the eve of battle.
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
I don't know about you, but I would never want to decommission a DCD. Can you imagine being that Techmarine?!
"Oh Venerable one..."
"HORUS! MY BROTHER!!"
"Its seems you've...uh...gone a little senile in your old age..."
"HOW COULD YOU DO THIS?!!?!?!?"
"I am afraid...we might have to...deconnect you..."
"YOU WILL PAY FOR TURNING YOUR BACK ON THE EMPEROR TRAITOR!!!!!!!"
*sounds of a blender chewing through metal and high robotic screaming*
Also don't forget that Black Rage is on the eve of battle. Whereas a living and breathing Marine can be picked out, and simply directed to don Power Armour rather than TDA. Dreads kind of have to stay in there.
adamsouza wrote: I was under the impression that people succumbed to the black rage before a battle and their existing armor was just painted black, with some extra crap tacked on.
I don't see them having special terminator armor for the Death Company, I just see members of the first company ( terminators) succumbing to the Black Rage on the eve of battle.
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Because Terminator armour is super-valuable? Death Company only really exist to commit suicide and bring as many enemies down in the process. Risking the company's Terminator Armour on a suicide unit is not a great idea. With Dreadnoughts it's either kill the sacred guy inside of it, or let them go nuts. Also notice that Death Company Dreads aren't Venerable Dreadnoughts, they're all rocking basic Dreadnought chassis.
That said, there's already a fluff prescident for having Death Company rocking super-valuable armour: Death Company Tycho. For some reason, they decided to let him hang onto his artificer armour when he succumbed to the Black Rage, although that might have had something to do with his respect in the chapter. Really, it's a poor justification IMHO, but it's not outside the realm of possibility I suppose...
I don't know when it changed in the fluff, but dreadnought chassis aren't exactly in massive amount of numbers, and battles have been fought just to reclaim a burnt out one lost in battle, even if it is beyond repair.
adamsouza wrote: I was under the impression that people succumbed to the black rage before a battle and their existing armor was just painted black, with some extra crap tacked on.
I don't see them having special terminator armor for the Death Company, I just see members of the first company ( terminators) succumbing to the Black Rage on the eve of battle.
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Because Terminator armour is super-valuable? Death Company only really exist to commit suicide and bring as many enemies down in the process. Risking the company's Terminator Armour on a suicide unit is not a great idea. With Dreadnoughts it's either kill the sacred guy inside of it, or let them go nuts. Also notice that Death Company Dreads aren't Venerable Dreadnoughts, they're all rocking basic Dreadnought chassis.
That said, there's already a fluff prescident for having Death Company rocking super-valuable armour: Death Company Tycho. For some reason, they decided to let him hang onto his artificer armour when he succumbed to the Black Rage, although that might have had something to do with his respect in the chapter. Really, it's a poor justification IMHO, but it's not outside the realm of possibility I suppose...
Plus if Dreadnoughts survive, they can be put back into stasis, ready to be used against next time they need to unleash the Death Company.
When your flying to battle in a strike cruiser and 6 hours before planet fall you succumb to the Black Rage, it's not like they have a bunch of suits lying around for you to change into.
If you showed up to battle in Terminator Armor, you fight in terminator armor.
adamsouza wrote: When your flying to battle in a strike cruiser and 6 hours before planet fall you succumb to the Black Rage, it's not like they have a bunch of suits lying around for you to change into.
If you showed up to battle in Terminator Armor, you fight in terminator armor.
I'm pretty sure 1st Company Vets have Power Armour as standard, and TDA is issued on a mission by mission basis. I think the Deathwing and Grey Knights are the only forces with sufficient suits to let everyone have one.
Olgerth Istaarn wrote: I would not at all mind if "survivors of Black Rage" became a thing. BA have been searching for an end to it for millennia. Perhaps they are beginning to find it. A glimmer of hope for the chapter is a lot more interesting than preserving Mephiston's special snowflake status.
This codex has me more excited than any non-model release since the Turd Edition (6th) dropped.
The cure for the Red Thirst is apparently what Shield of Baal: Deathstorm is about. The planetary governor of Phodia is supposedly the key to a cure for the chapter. Captain Karlaen leads a team to recover the governor no matter the cost.
The WDW this weekend suggests that we MAY be getting some terminator love for the sons of sanguinius. The 1st company is called "The Arch-angels". Who knows, we may get some blinged up terminators?
I am not a Blood Angels player, yet this excites me so much
Just because you put a Black Enraged marine in TDA doesn't mean the armour is lost. Drop pods need to be recovered after every battle, why not suits of TDA containing dead marines, to be reconditioned by the chapter artificers.
LutherMax wrote: Just because you put a Black Enraged marine in TDA doesn't mean the armour is lost. Drop pods need to be recovered after every battle, why not suits of TDA containing dead marines, to be reconditioned by the chapter artificers.
that was my thought. The armor wouldn't necessarily be ruined.
th3maninblak wrote: Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.
So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.
I'm more interested to see if we get the next generation of Grav-weapons.
Vanilla has the rifle for foot boys and bikers, and the cannon with amp on Centurions.
Will we see more wide spread use of grav weapons? Attack bikes, dreads, razorbacks, predator sponsons, devastators with grav-cannons? Or will they not be willing to make rules for units that do not have models again after the whole chapter house fiasco?
adamsouza wrote: When your flying to battle in a strike cruiser and 6 hours before planet fall you succumb to the Black Rage, it's not like they have a bunch of suits lying around for you to change into.
If you showed up to battle in Terminator Armor, you fight in terminator armor.
I'm pretty sure 1st Company Vets have Power Armour as standard, and TDA is issued on a mission by mission basis. I think the Deathwing and Grey Knights are the only forces with sufficient suits to let everyone have one.
Actually the blood angels have stockpiled huge amounts of terminator armor, as well as land raiders and storm ravens. Just sayin.
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.
Azreal13 wrote: You know the Leviathan Captain apparently has a "Blood Yell" right?
I wouldn't hold your breath!
In the bloody hour he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
In the bloodnight hour - "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell- "blood, blood, blood"
Blood, blood, blood.
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.
Once again, you're assuming putting a black enraged marine into terminator armour means the armour will be lost and destroyed. It can be recovered and repaired, even if the marine fulfills his death in combat objective.
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.
Once again, you're assuming putting a black enraged marine into terminator armour means the armour will be lost and destroyed. It can be recovered and repaired, even if the marine fulfills his death in combat objective.
No, I'm correctly assuming there is a unacceptably higher chance it will be destroyed compared with it being used by a normal veteran. When you're talking about something that is likely thousands of years old, a revered relic, and incredible difficult if not impossible to replace then putting a crazed lunatic in it makes no practical sense if you have a choice. It only makes sense to gamers who simply want a 2+/5+ with Fnp and are desperately grasping at straws to justify it. Whether or not Gw caters to those wishes despite logic and existing fluff for the sake of sales is another story though.
Wonder if you could teleport the armor back after the battle was over and leave the corpse behind, or retrieve the corpse and inture it in the burial vaults.
A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.
The only good reason for someone suffering from the Black Rage to be in terminator armour is if it overcame them once they'd been wearing the suit for a while and it would be impractical/dangerous to get it off them.
warboss is absolutely right about the way Terminator armour is considered in universe: a scarce resource of incredibly high value. It wouldn't be given to Black Rage sufferers on the off chance the suit will be recoverable. Even if it can be recovered (which is a big if), there are no guarantees that it will be in a usable condition/repairable. From the fluff it seems most chapters use their Terminator armour sparingly, only when absolutely necessary and it would be anathema to them to issue it to delusional madmen who could see it destroyed or lost.
Of course, fluff is adaptable to the need to sell new units, so we could well see DC Terminators.
Did I read somewhere that because the crux has a tiny piece of Emprah armour in it, that they try to recover the suits of all fallen vets no matter what?
I think there's justification for it, and anticipate the GW stand by of 'only in the most dire of dire circumstances' mixed with someone saying 'I wonder how killy these nutjobs would be as walking tanks?' for fluff validation.
I mean, it only has to have one scenario in which DC Terminators was a perfect solution to be justified in making it to the codex.
Ok I'm willing to concede it stretches the fluff - and I am the type of hobbyist who would eschew a unit, even a very powerful one if it didn't 'feel' right. I'm not even convinced we'll see such a unit but if we do I think it's within the scope of the writers to weave it into the fluff somehow.
LutherMax wrote: Ok I'm willing to concede it stretches the fluff - and I am the type of hobbyist who would eschew a unit, even a very powerful one if it didn't 'feel' right. I'm not even convinced we'll see such a unit but if we do I think it's within the scope of the writers to weave it into the fluff somehow.
......yes........but........Awwwwwsome! lol.
This is clearly the only logic needed. also I should put out there, that I run a total DC themed army.
I really will be shocked if this does happen, considering the source. However even if it doesn't turn out to be true, Its clear I need to paint some up just for display.
Death Company in Centurion assault armour would be funny.
"WHY YOU SO SLOW PUNY ROBOT"
"WHY ME CHAINZED IN HERE"
"SKULL DUDE, WHY YOU DO DIZ?!?!?!?!"
On a point though, all they would have to do is modify the centurion armour to be able to be remote shutdown by a tech marine, wouldn't have to run around chasing all the mad men at the end of the battle who just want to do more killing. I imagine it's the same situation as the owner of a dog who is off a lead and doesn't want to go back on it, cue helpless owner chasing it in futile.
"WHY YOU SO SLOW PUNY ROBOT"
"WHY ME CHAINZED IN HERE"
"SKULL DUDE, WHY YOU DO DIZ?!?!?!?!"
On a point though, all they would have to do is modify the centurion armour to be able to be remote shutdown by a tech marine, wouldn't have to run around chasing all the mad men at the end of the battle who just want to do more killing. I imagine it's the same situation as the owner of a dog who is off a lead and doesn't want to go back on it, cue helpless owner chasing it in futile.
perhaps thats the logic behind the DC in terminator armor,to quote the Forgeworld 'Red Butchers' text:
On the killing ground of Isstvan III, there were World Eaters on either side of the conflict who succumbed utterly, devolving into mindless frenzied savages that could not be controlled. Rather than ‘putting down’ such individuals as had happened in the past, the Apothecaries had the mad subdued and chained for a far darker fate.
The Techmarines made customised Terminator suits from recovered wargear for them, fashioning them as both armour and as confinement; mechanised prison cells that could be immobilised with a remote signal.
adamsouza wrote: When your flying to battle in a strike cruiser and 6 hours before planet fall you succumb to the Black Rage, it's not like they have a bunch of suits lying around for you to change into.
If you showed up to battle in Terminator Armor, you fight in terminator armor.
I'm pretty sure 1st Company Vets have Power Armour as standard, and TDA is issued on a mission by mission basis. I think the Deathwing and Grey Knights are the only forces with sufficient suits to let everyone have one.
A full strength Codex Astartes Chapter should have 100+ suits of Terminator Armor. 20, 5 man, squads plus what ever their leaders are wearing.
Terminator Armors is not the right armor for every battle, but I've never read, or heard of, Marines showing up with a change of armor. If they were dispathed to the warzone in Terminator Armor, and the black Rage overtakes them, it's reasonable for them to fight in it.
How would you get them out of it ?
"Hey Sanguinis, I know Horus is about to bust through that door, but would you mind trading me that Terminator armor your wearing for my standard issue power armor ?"
Every. Single. Time....the DC Terminator conversation comes up, I point people to the text that Jinx put up. There's precedent, so it's not like this is new fluff out of nowhere.
The Black Rage can show up at any time before, during, or after a battle. If a marine is in TDA and goes nuts, who's going to take him out of it?
No one.
Throw black paint on him and he's ready. Once he turns himself to paste in the suit, they can hose it out and paint it red.
Well the codex entry says that Chaplains look every brother in the eye on the eve of battle and identify tell tale signs, taking away anyone who displays any such identifiers; implying that in the intial stages of succumbing to the Black Rage individuals are able to be directed an interacted with.
You might also reasonably assume that a Chapter that's dealt with the Black Rage for millenia would c onduct these checks before allowing someone into a suit of Terminator armour.
It's not going to be 100% effective as combat situations will often prohibit being able to carry out such pre-battle rituals and we know that the Black Rage can manifest during battle, but brothers succumbing while in Terminator armour are going to be so rare as to not be worth making a unit entry for, let alone a whole kit.
Terminator Death Company might make sense as a Lone Wolf type unit with a 1 per 5 regular Death Company limit or something.
When has rarity ever stopped GW from making a kit, though? Forget all of your fluff, if GW wants to sell DC termies they're going to, and they'll rewrite fluff to make it work.
Don't think so? Think it's too stupid? Look no further than the riptide, which is about as stupid of an idea as DC termies and yet there it is. Also supposed to be a rare unit because of the cost in resources and time to manufacture, plus the experimental and deadly nature of its reactor, yet entirely possible to field an army of them on the table. GW doesn't care.
TalonZahn wrote: Every. Single. Time....the DC Terminator conversation comes up, I point people to the text that Jinx put up. There's precedent, so it's not like this is new fluff out of nowhere.
The Black Rage can show up at any time before, during, or after a battle. If a marine is in TDA and goes nuts, who's going to take him out of it?
No one.
Throw black paint on him and he's ready. Once he turns himself to paste in the suit, they can hose it out and paint it red.
Except... you know.. that isn't how it generally happens. There aren't roving bands of chapter serfs convienently walking around the battlefield carrying extra purity seals and buckets of black paint looking for marines that only just lost their cocoa puffs to add a new coat of black to. Go look up the Death Company entry in the current codex. In the rituals and preparations BEFORE the battle, the chaplains inspect the company and see if anyone has or is starting to succumb. If they've succumbed, the chaplains perform a ritual and the marine passes out into the chaplain's arms (so he's frequently might not even be in his armor) and is taken away. It is at that point that their armor is painted black BEFORE the battle. It isn't a case of terminators on the battlefield suddenly going crazy. This is a process and there is currently NO justification for conceiveably throwing away a suit of revered armor on a crazy person. The only "justification" is from a PLAYER perspective in that a 2+/5++ FNP unit with buffed stats is useful. It makes no sense on the part of the chapter that needs to look at the long term (centuries or even millenia) consequences of losing something that they in all likelihood won't be able to replace. There is so much ignorance masquerading as justification in this thread that it is mind boggling. If a marine does rarely succumb DURING the battle (like in the HH novel), they wouldn't be in a SQUAD of death company marines now would they with their armor painted black? Unless these death co terminators are like SW lone wolves, even that "justification" makes no sense. Or you think that a looney marine who thinks the HH is happening RIGHT NOW can calm down long enough for the paint to be applied and dry on his terminator armor. UGHH... Or do you think that BA armor comes with a toggle switch that changes its color instantly so he can join the squad of fellow loonies?
Azreal13 wrote: You know the Leviathan Captain apparently has a "Blood Yell" right?
I wouldn't hold your breath!
In the bloody hour he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
In the bloodnight hour - "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell- "blood, blood, blood"
Blood, blood, blood.
Bloody Yell, by Bloody Idol
Great. Now I have Bloody Idol stuck in my head.
Hey, I am just chuffed as anything that we're getting a new codex. Now if I can just GET one before they sell out...
sockwithaticket wrote: Well the codex entry says that Chaplains look every brother in the eye on the eve of battle and identify tell tale signs, taking away anyone who displays any such identifiers; implying that in the intial stages of succumbing to the Black Rage individuals are able to be directed an interacted with.
You might also reasonably assume that a Chapter that's dealt with the Black Rage for millenia would c onduct these checks before allowing someone into a suit of Terminator armour.
It's not going to be 100% effective as combat situations will often prohibit being able to carry out such pre-battle rituals and we know that the Black Rage can manifest during battle, but brothers succumbing while in Terminator armour are going to be so rare as to not be worth making a unit entry for, let alone a whole kit.
Terminator Death Company might make sense as a Lone Wolf type unit with a 1 per 5 regular Death Company limit or something.
This is the thing, what are the chances that at least 5 Terminators will succumb on the eve of battle? If that were the case, they could do it like the 4th ed Codex, where the number of Death Company in the army is completely random, you just roll before deployment and put a model from randomly selected units into a new Death Company unit... Terrible rules, but fluffy.
The Blood Angels are supposed to be on of the "richest" Chapters in the IoM. That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them. At most, other Space Marine chapters have 10 Land Raiders, the BA have 90 or more. Why could they not have more TDA suits than other chapters? I do not have a problem with the idea of them putting guys in them that are going through the hard stages of Bat Guano Psychosis. Actually it would be a bit of a twist for the fluff ... and change is good.
th3maninblak wrote: A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.
th3maninblak wrote: A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.
OIIIIIIO wrote: The Blood Angels are supposed to be on of the "richest" Chapters in the IoM. That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them. At most, other Space Marine chapters have 10 Land Raiders, the BA have 90 or more. Why could they not have more TDA suits than other chapters? I do not have a problem with the idea of them putting guys in them that are going through the hard stages of Bat Guano Psychosis. Actually it would be a bit of a twist for the fluff ... and change is good.
edit: Spelling
They also have fewer sets of terminator armor from space hulk incursions. More than once they have lost their entire first company in space hulks while wearing the armor.
I asked for 2 things from the new Blood Angels Codex, Grav weapons and Centurions.
Grav Guns ! Check !
Centurions ? I guess we'll have to wait 3 weeks to find out.
Why do I care ? I have 9 Centurions waiting to find out what chapter they belong to.
If BA get fast attack drop pods like Space Wolves, and I don't see why they shouldn't, and I'll be doing a little happy dance.
th3maninblak wrote: Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.
So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.
I'm more interested to see if we get the next generation of Grav-weapons.
Vanilla has the rifle for foot boys and bikers, and the cannon with amp on Centurions.
Will we see more wide spread use of grav weapons? Attack bikes, dreads, razorbacks, predator sponsons, devastators with grav-cannons? Or will they not be willing to make rules for units that do not have models again after the whole chapter house fiasco?
So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
Olgerth Istaarn wrote: I would not at all mind if "survivors of Black Rage" became a thing. BA have been searching for an end to it for millennia. Perhaps they are beginning to find it. A glimmer of hope for the chapter is a lot more interesting than preserving Mephiston's special snowflake status.
This codex has me more excited than any non-model release since the Turd Edition (6th) dropped.
The cure for the Red Thirst is apparently what Shield of Baal: Deathstorm is about. The planetary governor of Phodia is supposedly the key to a cure for the chapter. Captain Karlaen leads a team to recover the governor no matter the cost.
The WDW this weekend suggests that we MAY be getting some terminator love for the sons of sanguinius. The 1st company is called "The Arch-angels". Who knows, we may get some blinged up terminators?
I just hope we get something that harkens to our supposed superiority as drop troops. As it stands right now, our Assault marines are more expensive than "regular" Marines, our Death Company jump packs are ridiculously, prohibitively over-priced, and our Vanguard Veterans cannot be accompanied by Dante. I am really hoping for a return to our old Vanguard rule, where they can drop, on target, and assault immediately. Maybe these Archangels can do this, or something equally cool.
I mean, I picked the army for the fluff, long ago, was living in Africa, never got to play with them in the edition where they were good, and then have pretty much had my butt handed to me ever since. So, I am hoping for better Sanguinary Guard/Vanguard veterans rather than more Terminators. Flamers and Grav guns don't strike me as very BA in terms of fluff, so maybe they have put some work into the jump troops. No indication of that so far, of course, but the name "Archangel" gives me hope.
th3maninblak wrote: A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.
You mean Lone Wolves?
you forgot to add 2 wounds and cheap as dirt
A Lone wolf, WS5, Fnp, monster hunter, W2 in terminator armor with SB and power sword is 50 points. Trade out monster hunter for rage, make a unit of 5 cost ~260 points, and I think that would be about fair.
The Space Marine Legion list has some very cool unique terminator variants that 40k could use more of IMO.
I asked for 2 things from the new Blood Angels Codex, Grav weapons and Centurions.
Grav Guns ! Check !
Centurions ? I guess we'll have to wait 3 weeks to find out.
Why do I care ? I have 9 Centurions waiting to find out what chapter they belong to.
If BA get fast attack drop pods like Space Wolves, and I don't see why they shouldn't, and I'll be doing a little happy dance.
th3maninblak wrote: Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.
So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.
I'm more interested to see if we get the next generation of Grav-weapons.
Vanilla has the rifle for foot boys and bikers, and the cannon with amp on Centurions.
Will we see more wide spread use of grav weapons? Attack bikes, dreads, razorbacks, predator sponsons, devastators with grav-cannons? Or will they not be willing to make rules for units that do not have models again after the whole chapter house fiasco?
So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
I hear you, and agree. Let the Chapters be differentiated by their gear, as much as their color of armor. That kind of thinking has led me to add a DA contingent to my BA, and I am thinking of Iron Hands for some anti-air support and Techmarine shooting. So, limiting grav guns makes sense. And yes, why would BA have heavy flamers on Tactical squads, but not Salamanders? Doesn't make sense. And as I said, I want jump troops...but no sign that anything cool or different is happening there.
th3maninblak wrote: A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.
You mean Lone Wolves?
you forgot to add 2 wounds and cheap as dirt
A Lone wolf, WS5, Fnp, monster hunter, W2 in terminator armor with SB and power sword is 50 points. Trade out monster hunter for rage, make a unit of 5 cost ~260 points, and I think that would be about fair.
The Space Marine Legion list has some very cool unique terminator variants that 40k could use more of IMO.
So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
They don't have to be Vanilla +1 if it's balanced and priced properly.
What makes the current SM codex so kick ass is a lot of solid units, magnified in power by their chapter tactics. If BA get the same kickass units they probably won't be as good in optimal situations as Vanilla would be. If BA get a biker spam list like vanilla it probably won't be as good as a White Scar list. It's pod lists probably won't be better than Salamanders. It's armor wall won't beat out Iron Hands. BA will have to concentrate on what makes it better than Vanilla to remain relevant, mainly Jump marines, fast vehicles and unique units. Lets face it, the new books will always have the new stuff, but a long as it's balanced and reasonably fair it shouldn't matter. Especially in the era of allies and unbound.
I'm not exactly super impressed by BA getting the heavy flamer or grav gun either, I'd have preferred something unique, and Vanilla SHOULD have gotten the heavy flamer....it's insulting to Salamander players that it isn't. If they are going to give BA access to grav weapons then they might as well do it properly, and take the next step in grav evolution in the mean time.
As for Centurions, I personally hope we get something more interesting instead.
OIIIIIIO wrote: That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them.
"Our Land Raiders will blot out the sun!"
"Then we shall fight in the... wait, what?"
th3maninblak wrote: A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.
You mean Lone Wolves?
you forgot to add 2 wounds and cheap as dirt
A Lone wolf, WS5, Fnp, monster hunter, W2 in terminator armor with SB and power sword is 50 points. Trade out monster hunter for rage, make a unit of 5 cost ~260 points, and I think that would be about fair.
The Space Marine Legion list has some very cool unique terminator variants that 40k could use more of IMO.
Gotta start somewhere, why not here?
Im not bashing, but 260 points seems cheap for a 2+/5++ 2 wound squad of melee deep striking or storm raven assault vehicle turn 2 group. 260 is reasonable for 1W each but I would go as far as 350 points for a fully kitted squad with those stats.
They always were, until the 6E SM codex came out. I don't know why you woundn't see it coming when they got their own 7E codex
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
Done. They can also have conversion beamers, and any other weapons from 2E that haven't ported over yet.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
Done. I honestly don't know why vanilla marines do not have Dreadnaught Librarians.
Baal Predator too, what's so damned complicated about putting a twin linked assault cannon on a Predator ?
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
Who get's what gun has never been the deciding factor in SM chapters. There has always been Vanilla Marines and Not soo Vanilla Marines, with not soo vanilla marines having all of vanilla marines stuff plus their own extra special stuff.
OIIIIIIO wrote: That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them.
"Our Land Raiders will blot out the sun!"
"Then we shall fight in the... wait, what?"
So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
They don't have to be Vanilla +1 if it's balanced and priced properly.
What makes the current SM codex so kick ass is a lot of solid units, magnified in power by their chapter tactics. If BA get the same kickass units they probably won't be as good in optimal situations as Vanilla would be. If BA get a biker spam list like vanilla it probably won't be as good as a White Scar list. It's pod lists probably won't be better than Salamanders. It's armor wall won't beat out Iron Hands. BA will have to concentrate on what makes it better than Vanilla to remain relevant, mainly Jump marines, fast vehicles and unique units. Lets face it, the new books will always have the new stuff, but a long as it's balanced and reasonably fair it shouldn't matter. Especially in the era of allies and unbound.
I'm not exactly super impressed by BA getting the heavy flamer or grav gun either, I'd have preferred something unique, and Vanilla SHOULD have gotten the heavy flamer....it's insulting to Salamander players that it isn't. If they are going to give BA access to grav weapons then they might as well do it properly, and take the next step in grav evolution in the mean time.
As for Centurions, I personally hope we get something more interesting instead.
Nice reply, man. I hear you. I just think that perhaps as we continue to transition as a society to e-Pubs and digital versions of publications (in this case, Codex/Army Books) some of these "fixes" will become easier to utilize. That way they can take care of some of this by simply adding a unit to the digital version of the rulebook,, like the Centurions, or a weapon, like the grav gun. That way they COULD give Salamanders access to Heavy Flamers following the decision to do that to BA, and make everyone happy.
I still am hoping for more differentiation, so that playing a different chapter will require a different play style. One thing I don't like about the new SM book is the ability to "adopt" the Chapter tactics that catch your fancy...like a Blood Ravens list I played this summer that used the White Scars tactics and had bike and flyer spam. I mean, you should go White Scars if that's what you like; I feel the same about Blood Angels. I like the idea that they have semi-suicidal ragers charging forward, and then precise surgical strikes from above, with fast vehicles racing up to seize objectives or deposit troops in key locations. But we don't even have more than one type of Flyer...which all other SM do now...and our Jump Troops suck. So, I really hope they attend to this.
Im not bashing, but 260 points seems cheap for a 2+/5++ 2 wound squad of melee deep striking or storm raven assault vehicle turn 2 group. 260 is reasonable for 1W each but I would go as far as 350 points for a fully kitted squad with those stats.
Well, erm....you are wrong.
Think 5 Paladins w/apothecary (295 points), but strip off all the psychic powers and force weapons, frag, krak and psyk-out grenades, the aegis and PE demons and 260 isn't unfair, 275 might fly, but 300 is way too much. 350 is out to lunch, and 250 might be a little on the cheap sit.
OIIIIIIO wrote: That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them.
"Our Land Raiders will blot out the sun!"
"Then we shall fight in the... wait, what?"
LOL ... Thing about them being DT and having DS ... I only ever DS one once ... after that I thought about it and disagreed with the LR coming in from reserves that way. Have never done it since.
When I did DS it, I told the guy that everything I had was DS'ing (5th ed).. he paid little attention. He was playing Tau and put all of his stuff in one corner. I had a 14 man DC with a Chappy inside the LR and put it about 3 inches in front of his entire army. He asked what I was doing and I told him my LR had DS. His response was pure gold: Oh, ok I just thought ... WHAT? They can DS?!?
OT: The whole terminator/Honour Guard thing reminds me of that rumour about the ones called Blood Brothers ... wonder if they are the ones that came back from the Rage and they put them in TDA. If so .... thinking 2 wounds WS5?
Im not bashing, but 260 points seems cheap for a 2+/5++ 2 wound squad of melee deep striking or storm raven assault vehicle turn 2 group. 260 is reasonable for 1W each but I would go as far as 350 points for a fully kitted squad with those stats.
Well, erm....you are wrong.
Think 5 Paladins w/apothecary (295 points), but strip off all the psychic powers and force weapons, frag, krak and psyk-out grenades, the aegis and PE demons and 260 isn't unfair. 350 is out to lunch, and 250 might be a little on the cheap sit.
Paladins are in general a unit that most players groan at in their cheese/cost ratio.
You are talking WS5 2 attacks + rage, charge and weapon bonus possible in the back line at turn 2. Squishy armies are going to get crunched, Basilisk gun lines, hideaway tanks etc.
350 was kitted, so 5 termies with fists, claws, shields hammers and swords. Lets kit em how I would as a BA player.
5x termies WS5 2Wounds, FNP, Rage and Monster Hunter. 2Attacks and 2+/5++
1 Double LC, 1 PS/SB, 2 PF/SB 1 TH/SB.
That, in a single charging round is 16 attacks not including your rage per model all but one model at AP2 and he has shred
350 points for this isn't out of the question when (and I don't see this happening personally) the base model we were talking about was 50points without upgrades.
Im not bashing, but 260 points seems cheap for a 2+/5++ 2 wound squad of melee deep striking or storm raven assault vehicle turn 2 group. 260 is reasonable for 1W each but I would go as far as 350 points for a fully kitted squad with those stats.
Well, erm....you are wrong.
Think 5 Paladins w/apothecary (295 points), but strip off all the psychic powers and force weapons, frag, krak and psyk-out grenades, the aegis and PE demons and 260 isn't unfair. 350 is out to lunch, and 250 might be a little on the cheap sit.
Paladins are in general a unit that most players groan at in their cheese/cost ratio.
You are talking WS5 2 attacks + rage, charge and weapon bonus possible in the back line at turn 2. Squishy armies are going to get crunched, Basilisk gun lines, hideaway tanks etc.
350 was kitted, so 5 termies with fists, claws, shields hammers and swords. Lets kit em how I would as a BA player.
5x termies WS5 2Wounds, FNP, Rage and Monster Hunter. 2Attacks and 2+/5++
1 Double LC, 1 PS/SB, 2 PF/SB 1 TH/SB.
That, in a single charging round is 16 attacks not including your rage per model all but one model at AP2 and he has shred
350 points for this isn't out of the question when (and I don't see this happening personally) the base model we were talking about was 50points without upgrades.
I suppose, but at 350 points for the squad you'd be looking at 70 points per model, or 35 points per terminator wound. That's too high, especially in a world with 30-33 point GK and Chaos terminators and 25 point honor guard. Personally I'd just go all power axes and let the S6 AP2 carry the day for me to save points. Also, 16 attacks isn't anything to write home about. Also, they wouldn't be in melee turn 2, unless your opponent charges them or advances on one of your land raiders or something, as deepstriking or coming in via flyer means no charge on T2.
I don't know if people are up in arms over paladins anymore now that their wound allocation shenanigans from 5th edition are long gone.
Red butcher terminators are 275 for 5 guys, WS5, W2, 2+/4++, 6+ FnP, with rage, hatred and 2 power axes, so 5 S5 AP2 attacks each on the charge....for 55 each, and each additional costing 45 points (so call is 50 each). They are hardly out of line in the grander scheme of things.
Lets face it here...it's still a 5+ invul melee unit that will be splattered by S8+ AP2 fire power and needs either a super expensive ride or to risk deep striking into the game.
Regardless, we are a ways off-topic, so lets drop it for now, or take it elsewhere.
BoomWolf wrote: Only codex marines got them AFAIK, and honestly I like the fact that not every marine codex has the same stuff available to it, makes the fact you got 5 different loyalist marine armies not feel as overdone.
It does not feel overdone?
Do not worry, you will get blood-gravguns! Much unique, very original.
I suppose, but at 350 points for the squad you'd be looking at 70 points per model, or 35 points per terminator wound. That's too high, especially in a world with 30-33 point GK and Chaos terminators and 25 point honor guard. Personally I'd just go all power axes and let the S6 AP2 carry the day for me to save points. Also, 16 attacks isn't anything to write home about. Also, they wouldn't be in melee turn 2, unless your opponent charges them or advances on one of your land raiders or something, as deepstriking or coming in via flyer means no charge on T2.
I don't know if people are up in arms over paladins anymore now that their wound allocation shenanigans from 5th edition are long gone.
Red butcher terminators are 275 for 5 guys, WS5, W2, 2+/4++, 6+ FnP, with rage, hatred and 2 power axes, so 5 S5 AP2 attacks each on the charge....for 55 each, and each additional costing 45 points (so call is 50 each). They are hardly out of line in the grander scheme of things.
Lets face it here...it's still a 5+ invul melee unit that will be splattered by S8+ AP2 fire power and needs either a super expensive ride or to risk deep striking into the game.
Regardless, we are a ways off-topic, so lets drop it for now, or take it elsewhere.
150 for 3 models minimum, 50 for each additional. 2+/5++ 5+FNP WS5, 2 wounds, 2 attack base with rage and Fist/Storm Bolter with access to swap fist for a hammer or chain fist for 5 pts, or both for claws at 5pts would be reasonable. No reason they should be armed any differently from terminators. And they shouldn't get access to Storm Shields.
I suppose, but at 350 points for the squad you'd be looking at 70 points per model, or 35 points per terminator wound. That's too high, especially in a world with 30-33 point GK and Chaos terminators and 25 point honor guard. Personally I'd just go all power axes and let the S6 AP2 carry the day for me to save points. Also, 16 attacks isn't anything to write home about. Also, they wouldn't be in melee turn 2, unless your opponent charges them or advances on one of your land raiders or something, as deepstriking or coming in via flyer means no charge on T2.
I don't know if people are up in arms over paladins anymore now that their wound allocation shenanigans from 5th edition are long gone.
Red butcher terminators are 275 for 5 guys, WS5, W2, 2+/4++, 6+ FnP, with rage, hatred and 2 power axes, so 5 S5 AP2 attacks each on the charge....for 55 each, and each additional costing 45 points (so call is 50 each). They are hardly out of line in the grander scheme of things.
Lets face it here...it's still a 5+ invul melee unit that will be splattered by S8+ AP2 fire power and needs either a super expensive ride or to risk deep striking into the game.
Regardless, we are a ways off-topic, so lets drop it for now, or take it elsewhere.
Why is 35 points per terminator wound with WS5 too much? I already pay 40 points per WS4 terminator wound in my vanilla army.
adamsouza wrote: When your flying to battle in a strike cruiser and 6 hours before planet fall you succumb to the Black Rage, it's not like they have a bunch of suits lying around for you to change into.
If you showed up to battle in Terminator Armor, you fight in terminator armor.
I'm pretty sure 1st Company Vets have Power Armour as standard, and TDA is issued on a mission by mission basis. I think the Deathwing and Grey Knights are the only forces with sufficient suits to let everyone have one.
A full strength Codex Astartes Chapter should have 100+ suits of Terminator Armor. 20, 5 man, squads plus what ever their leaders are wearing.
Should but don't. As noted in the Grey Knight 5th Ed Codex, most chapters only have a handful of functional suits. Some of the older, Legion chapters might have a few score (around 60ish) to outfit some of their 5th Company.
As exceptions to that, the Minotaurs are noted as have a plentiful supply, and the Dark Angels who's Deathwing fight in TDA exclusively, and the Grey Knights who can outfit nearly everyone.
Did 5th edition Grey Knights codex mention Centurions and Gravguns ?
Yeah, I'll take the info from the 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th, and 7th edition Space Marine Codexes on pretty much anything Space Marine related over what the Matt Ward 5th Edition Grey Knights Codex has to say.
OIIIIIIO wrote: That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them.
"Our Land Raiders will blot out the sun!"
"Then we shall fight in the... wait, what?"
Y'know, I cringe when you post usually, but this made me spit coffee all over my work computer. Well done sir, have an exalt!
Frankenberry wrote: Y'know, I cringe when you post usually, but this made me spit coffee all over my work computer. Well done sir, have an exalt!
Thanks for the backhanded compliment... I guess...
I prefer to be honest, that way the compliment means just that much more because of it.
Anyhow, OT, aside from infantry and the codex vehicles BA should be getting access to, has anyone considered any ideas for a new vehicle? Might seem silly, just crossed my mind though.
Quarterdime wrote: Those new tacticals look ballin'. I was thinking that they should have gone with terminators, but tacticals are a good place to go, too.
...they look the same as death company with bolters only painted red.
arnt they too blinged to be tacticals? they look more like veterans to me.
it will be hard to tell what's what. bling everywhere. the only thing differentiating anything will be the paint job.
Well unless the fluff changed Blood Angels tacticals are supposed to be the highest power-armored infantry rank in the Blood Angels.
They always were, until the 6E SM codex came out. I don't know why you woundn't see it coming when they got their own 7E codex
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
Done. They can also have conversion beamers, and any other weapons from 2E that haven't ported over yet.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
Done. I honestly don't know why vanilla marines do not have Dreadnaught Librarians.
Baal Predator too, what's so damned complicated about putting a twin linked assault cannon on a Predator ?
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
Who get's what gun has never been the deciding factor in SM chapters. There has always been Vanilla Marines and Not soo Vanilla Marines, with not soo vanilla marines having all of vanilla marines stuff plus their own extra special stuff.
Well if the special snowflakes get everything that vanilla Marines get, then why play vanilla Marines? "Because you painted yours bright green, you're honor bound to play with the vanilla book!"?
The codex-hopping bullgak that Marine players pulled in 5th edition was annoying enough, always changing horses every time a new and seemingly better Marine book came out...Crimson Fists suddenly became Blood Angels which then turned into Space Wolves, and then it was about a 50/50 chance for those Space Wolves to turn into Grey Knights, or just keep tabling everyone with SW since they were still pretty awesome. If you literally just copy/pasted the Marine codex for every off-shoot and added the extra stuff to it to make them BA, SW or whatever, then there would be literally no point in playing with the vanilla codex anymore, because you couldn't do anything with it that you couldn't do with one of the other books, and better.
Much easier to just get rid of all the special snowflake codices instead, and force everyone to go back to using the vanilla codex, since despite all the outrage at even the merest suggestion that GW do that, it's apparently what you want anyway...then start producing $50 supplements for all the "special" chapters and Grey Knights instead with all their special characters, their own Chapter Tactics, and unique units (all massively nerfed of course to make up for the fact that you get all the goodies vanilla Marines get now). "But why should I have to buy two books to play my army?! That's not fair!" Because you want to be Space Marines and Blood Angels instead of one or the other, you basically are asking GW to give you two books for the price of one.
If you really think your army is different enough from vanilla Marines to justify having its own book, and you want them to have all this neat stuff Marines don't have and to be considered a separate army altogether in all respects, then you have to take the good along with the bad. You don't get to have everything, and if you want it that badly then pay for it, I say. If grav centurions are something you need to play with that badly, and you don't care enough about any of the stuff that BA have access to instead, then maybe you're just playing the wrong army?
Or just play Unbound and play literally whatever the hell you want, since that's an option now. Cherry pick the best crap from every book, paint it red, and go nuts.
Well if the special snowflakes get everything that vanilla Marines get, then why play vanilla Marines? "Because you painted yours bright green, you're honor bound to play with the vanilla book!"? ...
1.) There really are no more vanilla marines because of Chapter Tactics, only different types of special snowflakes.
2.) Codex Marines have access to the Hunter, Stalker, Thunderfire Cannon, Centurion Armor, Ironclad Dreadnaught, Venerable Dreadnaught, Storm Talon Gunship, Land Speeder Storm, Grav Guns, and most importantly Chapter Tactics.
3.) Most people I know pick their marine chapter based on it's looks, it's fluff, or it's Chapter Tactics.
I think that the other Space Marine factions should have their own librarian dreadnaught. It shouldn't be a problem if you give them different abilities based on which codex they're in. Also, Baal Predators can get the usual "divergent pattern" mechanicus talk.
I think 5th ed was really good for marine balance until grey knights, honestly. The late 5th ed FAQ for dark angels gave them a place in the scene, vanilla marines had some really strong builds and a lot of viable options, and space wolves/blood angels were both really unique. So far with the new books, Dark Angels are fine (a bit underpowered, but still a fun and rewarding army), grey knights were fixed and brought to a level in line with everyone else, vanilla marines have one of the best and most versatile books of all time, and space wolves have EASILY the strongest of the 7th ed books.
If BA can keep their unique feel and be brought out of the dark ages after 2 editions of a savage nerf bat assault, then we can get back to the balance that was 5th ed.
Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
I don't think that will happen.
Even with point reductions, and the addition of Grav Weapons, Blood Angels are still an assault heavy army in a shooty edition.
Although there is hope if they get Fast Attack Drop Pods and Centurions. Then you can Drop Pod in Grav Cannon Centurions into the enemy's depolyment zone
7th Edition seems to be getting away from the dedicated transports section in the army list, to end objective secured drop pod nonsense, etc..
7th Edition Space Wolves have their drop pods listed under Fast Attack now, so there is a precedent.
7th Edition Blood Angels are getting Grav weapons.
All 7th Edition Blood Angels need is access to Centurions.
adamsouza wrote: Did 5th edition Grey Knights codex mention Centurions and Gravguns ?
Yeah, I'll take the info from the 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th, and 7th edition Space Marine Codexes on pretty much anything Space Marine related over what the Matt Ward 5th Edition Grey Knights Codex has to say.
Tough, doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose what is canon and what is not when it is written in black and white so clearly. Bear in mind that Ward also wrote 5th Ed Blood Angels and Space Marines.
adamsouza wrote: Did 5th edition Grey Knights codex mention Centurions and Gravguns ?
Yeah, I'll take the info from the 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th, and 7th edition Space Marine Codexes on pretty much anything Space Marine related over what the Matt Ward 5th Edition Grey Knights Codex has to say.
Tough, doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose what is canon and what is not when it is written in black and white so clearly. Bear in mind that Ward also wrote 5th Ed Blood Angels and Space Marines.
th3maninblak wrote: Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
Actually I think it would be far more beneficial to the game to fix the Elder Codex than make another broken one. Sadly GW does not seem to have much interest in making the game better.
I would guess the new BA Codex will focus on one element of the Codex (looking like Death Company), screw over some other elements for no apparent reason and make the supplemental Codex mandatory to boost the power of the focussed army element - like they did with Dark Eldar.
Looks like a nice cover art - and they seemed to commissioned a new artist (or given them a decent amount of work) for internals as there does seem to be new art coming through
Does something look very off about the head to anyone else? Like he has an abnormally long neck to actually be able to look down in that helmet or something?
Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?
Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.
Once again, you're assuming putting a black enraged marine into terminator armour means the armour will be lost and destroyed. It can be recovered and repaired, even if the marine fulfills his death in combat objective.
I can understand what you're saying, but 40K isn't the only universe to dramatically change their fluff just for the sake of it. Pretty much everything changes their fluff to some degree. Star Wars being one that comes to mind. It's just the way of the world.
sockwithaticket wrote: Well the codex entry says that Chaplains look every brother in the eye on the eve of battle and identify tell tale signs, taking away anyone who displays any such identifiers; implying that in the intial stages of succumbing to the Black Rage individuals are able to be directed an interacted with.
You might also reasonably assume that a Chapter that's dealt with the Black Rage for millenia would c onduct these checks before allowing someone into a suit of Terminator armour.
It's not going to be 100% effective as combat situations will often prohibit being able to carry out such pre-battle rituals and we know that the Black Rage can manifest during battle, but brothers succumbing while in Terminator armour are going to be so rare as to not be worth making a unit entry for, let alone a whole kit.
Terminator Death Company might make sense as a Lone Wolf type unit with a 1 per 5 regular Death Company limit or something.
We have seen squads fall to the black rage before in the books. I don't think it's out the question really. Sure, they were brought on by agents of chaos in each case in order to try and turn the Blood Angels but I think it's not that far fetched to come up with some fluff for it. Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
TalonZahn wrote: Every. Single. Time....the DC Terminator conversation comes up, I point people to the text that Jinx put up. There's precedent, so it's not like this is new fluff out of nowhere.
The Black Rage can show up at any time before, during, or after a battle. If a marine is in TDA and goes nuts, who's going to take him out of it?
No one.
Throw black paint on him and he's ready. Once he turns himself to paste in the suit, they can hose it out and paint it red.
Except... you know.. that isn't how it generally happens. There aren't roving bands of chapter serfs convienently walking around the battlefield carrying extra purity seals and buckets of black paint looking for marines that only just lost their cocoa puffs to add a new coat of black to. Go look up the Death Company entry in the current codex. In the rituals and preparations BEFORE the battle, the chaplains inspect the company and see if anyone has or is starting to succumb. If they've succumbed, the chaplains perform a ritual and the marine passes out into the chaplain's arms (so he's frequently might not even be in his armor) and is taken away. It is at that point that their armor is painted black BEFORE the battle. It isn't a case of terminators on the battlefield suddenly going crazy. This is a process and there is currently NO justification for conceiveably throwing away a suit of revered armor on a crazy person. The only "justification" is from a PLAYER perspective in that a 2+/5++ FNP unit with buffed stats is useful. It makes no sense on the part of the chapter that needs to look at the long term (centuries or even millenia) consequences of losing something that they in all likelihood won't be able to replace. There is so much ignorance masquerading as justification in this thread that it is mind boggling. If a marine does rarely succumb DURING the battle (like in the HH novel), they wouldn't be in a SQUAD of death company marines now would they with their armor painted black? Unless these death co terminators are like SW lone wolves, even that "justification" makes no sense. Or you think that a looney marine who thinks the HH is happening RIGHT NOW can calm down long enough for the paint to be applied and dry on his terminator armor. UGHH... Or do you think that BA armor comes with a toggle switch that changes its color instantly so he can join the squad of fellow loonies?
Or easy solution, just paint you're DC termies red and let your opponent know they fell to the black rage during the battle. Even add some sort of fluff to it. The enemy has an artefact that the blood angels seem to be very sensitive to it.
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MajorWesJanson wrote: So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
Well you did get the Stormraven from us. There will be things that we still don't get from C:SM. I.e. Thunderfire Cannons and I'm not expecting to get Centurions either. The Sky Talon is also still to be determined. You can't have a moan and get brand new stuff every codex and then tell us that we aren't allowed anything new at all.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
OIIIIIIO wrote: That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them.
"Our Land Raiders will blot out the sun!"
"Then we shall fight in the... wait, what?"
LOL ... Thing about them being DT and having DS ... I only ever DS one once ... after that I thought about it and disagreed with the LR coming in from reserves that way. Have never done it since.
When I did DS it, I told the guy that everything I had was DS'ing (5th ed).. he paid little attention. He was playing Tau and put all of his stuff in one corner. I had a 14 man DC with a Chappy inside the LR and put it about 3 inches in front of his entire army. He asked what I was doing and I told him my LR had DS. His response was pure gold: Oh, ok I just thought ... WHAT? They can DS?!?
OT: The whole terminator/Honour Guard thing reminds me of that rumour about the ones called Blood Brothers ... wonder if they are the ones that came back from the Rage and they put them in TDA. If so .... thinking 2 wounds WS5?
There are some chapters that think the black rage is their salvation. So perhaps they would be more likely to put their Death Company in termie suits.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
This. Oh so much this. I'm a fluff fanatic but I'll forever be overjoyed with fluff re-hauls because of awesome new miniatures. Fluff is fantastic, but new miniatures are even better!
Like most of us BA addicts I'm excited and yet fearful of the new release! not sure I like the bigger base size hijinks, it screams to me it's being done to stop other resin cast base makers from profiting? nothing really game advantageous? the models I like so far. Tactical squad was certainly left of centre and now I have 20 painted Tacs to sell as the OCD in me needs new ones :-) while we can guess as much as we want lets just man up and wait and see what appears in the next week or two eh!
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
That's great, except for the fact that for some of us the "cool things" we want are fluff. I know it's not nice, but I honestly hope one day in the future GW drop BA as a unique codex and roll them into C:SM, just so I can be there to tell you "don't get so hung up on the things you like, win/win get over it!".
MajorWesJanson wrote: So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.
And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.
New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.
This is my problem with them getting grav - I'm REALLY hoping they don't get Dev Centurions. SM are already top tier, giving them everything and then some would theoretically put them at Eldar levels.
th3maninblak wrote: I think 5th ed was really good for marine balance until grey knights, honestly. The late 5th ed FAQ for dark angels gave them a place in the scene, vanilla marines had some really strong builds and a lot of viable options, and space wolves/blood angels were both really unique. So far with the new books, Dark Angels are fine (a bit underpowered, but still a fun and rewarding army), grey knights were fixed and brought to a level in line with everyone else, vanilla marines have one of the best and most versatile books of all time, and space wolves have EASILY the strongest of the 7th ed books.
If BA can keep their unique feel and be brought out of the dark ages after 2 editions of a savage nerf bat assault, then we can get back to the balance that was 5th ed.
Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
I don't know how well you remember 5th ed, but Vanilla Marines were kind of mid-tier, especially after BA dropped, since it had nearly everything that C:SM had in it (BA were upper-mid tier). Space Wolves were considered broken, they were the best army from release until the end of 5th. GK were definitely broken as well until 6th ed dropped. As for the outdated BT and DA, DA had ridiculously cheap Terminators and Land Speeder Typhoons and BT were pretty mediocre. So Marines were pretty much all over the place in terms of power, but were largely stronger than the majority of other races, which was their main problem - there's a reason people called 5th ed the "Marine edition".
I suppose, but at 350 points for the squad you'd be looking at 70 points per model, or 35 points per terminator wound. That's too high, especially in a world with 30-33 point GK and Chaos terminators and 25 point honor guard. Personally I'd just go all power axes and let the S6 AP2 carry the day for me to save points. Also, 16 attacks isn't anything to write home about. Also, they wouldn't be in melee turn 2, unless your opponent charges them or advances on one of your land raiders or something, as deepstriking or coming in via flyer means no charge on T2.
I don't know if people are up in arms over paladins anymore now that their wound allocation shenanigans from 5th edition are long gone.
Red butcher terminators are 275 for 5 guys, WS5, W2, 2+/4++, 6+ FnP, with rage, hatred and 2 power axes, so 5 S5 AP2 attacks each on the charge....for 55 each, and each additional costing 45 points (so call is 50 each). They are hardly out of line in the grander scheme of things.
Lets face it here...it's still a 5+ invul melee unit that will be splattered by S8+ AP2 fire power and needs either a super expensive ride or to risk deep striking into the game.
Regardless, we are a ways off-topic, so lets drop it for now, or take it elsewhere.
Why is 35 points per terminator wound with WS5 too much? I already pay 40 points per WS4 terminator wound in my vanilla army.
Because the example DC terminator would have 1 attack for 35 points, probably with a power weapon, and your terminator has 2 attacks with a power FIST. A chaos or GK terminator is 31-33 points for 2 power weapon attacks. The second wound is worth less than the first one as well, since it can be instant death'ed off.
Remember here, a paladin is 27.5 points for a 1 attack 1 wound half-a-paladin, and the proposed DC isn't really any better than him.
As for paying 40 points for a WS4 powerfist terminator....you are paying too much. "Tactical" terminator really should be like 35-38 points each at most. They've been over priced forever.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
That's great, except for the fact that for some of us the "cool things" we want are fluff. I know it's not nice, but I honestly hope one day in the future GW drop BA as a unique codex and roll them into C:SM, just so I can be there to tell you "don't get so hung up on the things you like, win/win get over it!".
Why would they do that? This thread along with countless others across the Internet are testament to the fact Blood Angels have a huge independent following.
The fluff is important – extremely important – to me too, but this hobby and the universe in which it exists is a constantly changing and developing thing. We can't let it stagnate and be locked in the past.
It's supposed to be fun, just try not to take it too seriously.
th3maninblak wrote: Though i still have a fools hope that this new BA dex will kick the gak out of tau and eldar.
Actually I think it would be far more beneficial to the game to fix the Elder Codex than make another broken one. Sadly GW does not seem to have much interest in making the game better.
I would guess the new BA Codex will focus on one element of the Codex (looking like Death Company), screw over some other elements for no apparent reason and make the supplemental Codex mandatory to boost the power of the focussed army element - like they did with Dark Eldar.
I think GW's been doing a good job with regards to balance since late 6th edition. And I don't buy the notion that the main DE codex is weak and requires the HC supplement. I think the HC supplement is a really good one, but regular DE are solid.
Tyranids were perhaps the nadir during this time, but their recent boosts help them a lot without imbalancing them. The issue is that Eldar are OP, IMO. Tau have some issues too, but I think Eldar are the bigger outlier and the thing that's distorting the game. Better balance Eldar -- and I think that means some targeted tweaks (including a few boosts too) and not a full-on nerf bat assault -- and I think the game would be in decent shape. At least in regards to the main codicies themselves.
Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I really think we could see some changes to Eldar in the year to come. In the meantime, I expect that BA will be solid but not a cheesefest.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
While fluff has to have a little bit of flex, it can't be retconned or re-written at will or else it stops meaning anything. One of the big reasons people love 40k above other games is the richness of the universe and the way it's been established. Radical change to that threatens internal coherence and the wilingness to buy into it..
There's also an irony in invoking narrative as a defence of ignoring/dramatically changing fluff. I have a few close friends who are creative types and have met a number of their friends and associates who are also creative types, the writers among them have all got stories of editors and publishers telling them some variation of: consistent application of whatever internal logic their setting has and strong discipline,are the key to establishing a good narrative. An open sandbox where anything goes so long as it's cool works towards being the antithesis of a narrative.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
That's great, except for the fact that for some of us the "cool things" we want are fluff. I know it's not nice, but I honestly hope one day in the future GW drop BA as a unique codex and roll them into C:SM, just so I can be there to tell you "don't get so hung up on the things you like, win/win get over it!".
Why would they do that? This thread along with countless others across the Internet are testament to the fact Blood Angels have a huge independent following.
The fluff is important – extremely important – to me too, but this hobby and the universe in which it exists is a constantly changing and developing thing. We can't let it stagnate and be locked in the past.
It's supposed to be fun, just try not to take it too seriously.
But that was supposed to be the point of my comment; you don't consider this particular thing important, so your response is "get over it", "don't take it seriously" etc etc, but would you enjoy being subjected to that kind of condescension if things you DO consider important were changed/removed? "Blood Angels are just red Marines anyway duder, get over it, why so srs, lulz" etc might be a technically valid response in the sense that anyone is allowed to hold and to express their opinions, but it's still crass and tactless to respond in that fashion to someone who's having their enjoyment of their hobby diminished.
That is another cool cover. I do like the style of the artist they've hired to do the hardback covers as most of them have been quite good. I know there was a link posted a few months back to the deviantart page for him/her so I'll have to try and find it. The only one I haven't been a fan of is the space wolf one which was still good but just not great. I would have preferred if they used the excellent Blood of Asaheim novel cover instead but that is unlikely given the flak they got for reusing (excellent) art for the chaos cover.
Hmm, there have been rumours of a new Priest kit, but that actually looks blinged enough to me to be Corbulo... the chalice is identical to Corbulo's too, so maybe it's a combo plastic kit?
Frankenberry wrote: Are you fething serious right now? The damn thing is sold out already? I JUST saw it come on the site!?
So help me god, if I see someone selling four of them for 100% increased prices I'll kick a child.
Really? We get picked on in highschool, we get bullied and here you are ready to kick a child who is innocent and has nothing to do with it. Joke or not, it's not funny.
Hayes1118 wrote: With these new tacticals, I am hoping we will be able to take either a heavy or special weapon in five man squads. Do you all think that will happen?
They should be as they are most likely being brought into line with Codex: Not-Red Space Marines.
Remember it's about narrative like I said before and the reason why GW takes this approach is that they want to keep the game as open as possible. They want to give players these cool things for their armies.
This. Some people get a bit too hung up on the fluff. We want cool things, they want to sell us cool things, win/win get over it!
That's great, except for the fact that for some of us the "cool things" we want are fluff. I know it's not nice, but I honestly hope one day in the future GW drop BA as a unique codex and roll them into C:SM, just so I can be there to tell you "don't get so hung up on the things you like, win/win get over it!".
Why would they do that? This thread along with countless others across the Internet are testament to the fact Blood Angels have a huge independent following.
The fluff is important – extremely important – to me too, but this hobby and the universe in which it exists is a constantly changing and developing thing. We can't let it stagnate and be locked in the past.
It's supposed to be fun, just try not to take it too seriously.
But that was supposed to be the point of my comment; you don't consider this particular thing important, so your response is "get over it", "don't take it seriously" etc etc, but would you enjoy being subjected to that kind of condescension if things you DO consider important were changed/removed? "Blood Angels are just red Marines anyway duder, get over it, why so srs, lulz" etc might be a technically valid response in the sense that anyone is allowed to hold and to express their opinions, but it's still crass and tactless to respond in that fashion to someone who's having their enjoyment of their hobby diminished.
EDIT: Also what sock said.
Like I said before, fluff changes in a lot of universes. I've seen it in Star Wars, Batman and plenty of others. When you are saying here is not the equivalent of giving the The Penguin a new back story, but getting rid of The Penguin altogether and pretending like he didn't happen. They are completely different things.
Something about new Corbulo that looks more like options put together rather than the single monopose character we usually see.
On the other hand, that skirt would not look proper on ordinary hq/command.
Perhaps mephiston/corbulo dual kit.
I really like it though, but can understand if people used to the simplicity of old Corbulo take this as an insult.
The real problem here is the sternguard veteran kit being so pimped out with bling an actual commander/named character must stand way over the top.
Its also not corbulo. Its just a sanguinary priest according to price list
Where are you seeing this? Because £26 is a) more reasonable than I expected and b) easily worth it for the upgrade over the already awesome Tactical Squad.
I like the chainsword and the chalice, but "robes strategically positioned to reveal nipples" reminds me of girls flashing their tits at Mardi Gras for beads.
And the leg position looks super awkward. Maybe the model will look better in person (but there's no way to fix the boobrobe I fear).
And why robes anyway? I thought that was exclusively a DA thing...
Kirasu wrote: Whoa Corbulo looks awesome.. I hope it's a multi-use kit that *can* make Corbulo or some random sanguinary priest.
Have any of the 6th/7th edition plastic kits been modular besides just a hand/weapon swap? All the ones I've seen have been monopose and most don't even have a wargear swap.
Kirasu wrote: Whoa Corbulo looks awesome.. I hope it's a multi-use kit that *can* make Corbulo or some random sanguinary priest.
Have any of the 6th/7th edition plastic kits been modular besides just a hand/weapon swap? All the ones I've seen have been monopose and most don't even have a wargear swap.
But now... New Priest kit, or Corbulo..?! The body would even make a good base for Mephiston!
No worries, fella. Kudos for being a gentleman on the internet. For what it's worth I can see where you're coming from and I'm not averse to all fluff changes, I just happen to disagree in this case as I think it would be too drastic.
Now, this Priest sums up how I feel about a lot of recent GW releases. The constituent parts are quite cool (the arms especially so), but the whole doesn't quite do it for me.
I'm not sure what's going on behind his head and the gorget seems to be way to tall; the robes don't really fit if that's meant to be Corbulo, Need to see some more angles before drawing a definitive conclusion.
However, the body looks like it could be a good basis for a Mephiston. Do we perhaps have a multipart plastic kit inbound that could be used to make one of Corbulo, Mephiston or a generic Sanguinary Priest?
sockwithaticket wrote: The constituent parts are quite cool (the arms especially so), but the whole doesn't quite do it for me.
I agree with you there. The chainsword arm is awesome and the outstretched arm would look killer with a bolter in it. I will buy it just to make some kind of super cool veteran sergeant
Kirasu wrote: Whoa Corbulo looks awesome.. I hope it's a multi-use kit that *can* make Corbulo or some random sanguinary priest.
Have any of the 6th/7th edition plastic kits been modular besides just a hand/weapon swap? All the ones I've seen have been monopose and most don't even have a wargear swap.
The DE Archon could do head and arm swaps iirc.
The exception I was referring to was the commissar who IIRC had a weapon swap but that still in my book isn't enough to justify the ridiculous prices for monopose single plastic figs. Also, from Motograter's post, it looks like this will be a generic monopose priest.
Motograter wrote:Prices are on blood angels facebook page. Its not corbulo nor is it a multipart kit. Its an £18 plain Jane sanguinary priest
And the ridiculous prices continue. I thought it was bad enough when they did the fireblade and commissar at cheaper than that.. but that takes it a step further. I can justify the space marine commander at that price a few years back because he came with a truckload of unique bits for customization but there is no way in hell that a single monopose marine sized fig with little or no customization is worth that price to me.
-ing Death Company Terminators! I know this is a pretty big change in fluff, but if it's true I can't wait to see the look on my opponents faces when they hit the table.
