Niiru wrote:
Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect
Unless I messed up my numbers, doesn't seem it. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that they're roughly on par against Wave Serpents. Compared to Neutron, Icarus tends to be more reliable against flyers and flexible against MEQs and below. I think the numbers against something like Battlesuits are much more impressive.
I thought wave serpents counted as flyers, and so the Icarus sound be better. If not, I don't see why they'd be better against any other FLY unit... I'm too tired to try and math right now though lol.
I've heard some bad rumors along the lines of Kataphrons not getting a pts drop. If they have not been changed(or directly affected by stratagems or whatever), GW is confirmed as completelly inept
There are a lot of flying units with less than T7. Anything with a jet pack, battlesuits, Tyranids, etc. Furthermore, if you have to shoot infantry, am Icarus can do that very well, especially due to rerolls.
22 units in the Codex:
17 Ad Mech + 5 knights(I assume). So hooray, no new units
Although the wording is "22 datasheets with rules and point values for each Adeptus Mechanicus miniature". So there is a chance, albeit a very very VERY small one, that we'll get 5 new units.
But it also say " Combining the previous codexes Adeptus Mechanicus, Skitarii and Imperial Knighs in one book!" So, again, I really doubt we'll get new units
The_Savior wrote: -Holds my eight Kastelan Robots close- Precious...
You think they'll get nerfed? Fat chance. If they do - GW is mental
I dunno, but I am not worried either, I don't play try-hard enough like I used too. So having a bunch of robots gun down things is fun. Don't get me wrong, I just bought the other six recently. So I would not like them to be nerfed. But that stratagem for the mortal wounds is amazing.
Heavy Support:
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
I could drop the three dragoons for another Dunecrawler and change, so that is certainly an option on that's on the table, although I do like having that variety in models, and the extra table control could end up going a long way in an army that is already frontloaded with lots of offensive firepower. Hordes can prove problematic, but they don't have much of a presence in my environment's current meta, so I can afford to mess around a bit.
Niiru wrote:
Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect
Unless I messed up my numbers, doesn't seem it. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that they're roughly on par against Wave Serpents. Compared to Neutron, Icarus tends to be more reliable against flyers and flexible against MEQs and below. I think the numbers against something like Battlesuits are much more impressive.
I thought wave serpents counted as flyers, and so the Icarus sound be better. If not, I don't see why they'd be better against any other FLY unit... I'm too tired to try and math right now though lol.
A couple of things go into this discussion!
The Neutron Onager, with re-rolls, does a better job against T7 Flyers
However, the Icarus Onager does not need the rerolls as much to perform, and anything below T7 it VASTLY outperforms the Neutron Onager.
For a lot of people, that might be meta dependent choice. All the flyers I face locally are Marine players with Stormravens, Firehawks, and the like. I only take 1 Icarus as opposed to multiples like some might.
~~~
As far as the mortal wound strategem goes, in regards to Kastelens in Protector, I believe the wording implies that it only works for the one shooting attack, correct?
Heavy Support:
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
I could drop the three dragoons for another Dunecrawler and change, so that is certainly an option on that's on the table, although I do like having that variety in models, and the extra table control could end up going a long way in an army that is already frontloaded with lots of offensive firepower. Hordes can prove problematic, but they don't have much of a presence in my environment's current meta, so I can afford to mess around a bit.
Try making from now on lists with command points in mind. Since we w8ing the new codex and already see a fraction of changes.
2dragoons might be more optimal for a 1500 list. Atm im trying one dragoo with sniper one with lance havent decided yet. But i use also rangers with sniper and elysian sniper team.
Since lots of changes will soon arive i strongly believe ad mech for me will be 2 detachments. One mars with my dakka and one melee for my dragoons to explode. So might be nice to make that split sooner. I dont understand why you have so much anti phych for a 1500 list. Take one cullexus or greyfax. I would go with astra militarum soldiers better can cover mortal spam and still get same resukts with greyfax she gives ld to soldiers like commissar.
Manticore no need. Heavy weqpon team with mortars all you need. And as for the deep strike try ekysian force cheaper + 21 points sniper to get those snipers stacking. Celestine is the best tar pit but id go with Cawl. I use dragoons as tar pits espcially if i have 3 and ig soldiers are more flexible. For me. + Cawl with neutron onagers are beast vs antitanks role so i take mortars and ig soldiers for anti blop.
One unit of robots with datasmith costs 272 points definetly worth it.
on thing to consider is the icarus is also better at shooting grunts than the neutron. even at a lower BS. maybe not MEQ, i'd have to actually do the math, but certainly GEQ or nids or orks that makes it more versatile. I'll still take my neutrons though because they look bad ass.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Multiple power fists going after a 60 point model? That's a good tradeoff considering on average you'd need 3 Power Fists to have hit and wounded it.
5 man terminator squad has 11 attacks, that's average of 7. they thank you for the free 2d6 movement, kill one consolidate 3" to the other side of the remaining dragoon, then you either have to fall back and let them pass, get charged or die in the next round and by the time they come back to their turn the dragoons are gone, they're 2d6+3" closer to your gunline. when they could have instead simply done nothing and it would take another one to two turns for that same unit to get to the same place
the smarter idea is to make sure what ever you are screening with takes several down with them or is so cheap you can litter the board with them.... or just put it to more shooting.
You're not making that Deep Strike charge often unless you're going Black Templars or Minotaurs w/ Asterion. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Please get out of this Tactica so actual Mechanicus players can do discussion please.
you haven't played this edition have you because
1) command rerolls are a thing
2) you stand a fair to decent chance of making it 27% from deep strike without the reroll, IIRC something like 52-58 with it.
3) LAND RAIDERS EXIST
By this argument, we shouldn't run screens at all. I mean, even Conscripts don't do much damage. Their value is in how they can body block, sponge wounds, and maybe kill GEQs. They can't even threaten the Dragoons that you're comparing them unfavorably against, which cost only 8 more points more.
20 conscripts are 60 points that's 8 points cheaper than A SINGLE dragoon. not the unit of two, they're less than half the price, take up way more space, put out 6 times the number of attacks in melee, 80 shots in shooting (FRFSRF), and if you add a commissar you can have a power fist in there too. but truth be told they won't be minimum squad size and they will not charge you they'll simply FRFSRF you to death then charge if they need to. which a max squad size conscrpit blob should be able to take out a pair of dragoons in a single turn.
in theory a max size concript blob if they FRFSRF and get the charge off gets 250 attacks a that turn and is 150 points. granted they're BSWS 5 at str 3 but that's 250 attacks and 200 of them are shooting, the extra 50 just make sure those 4 dragoons die a horrible death. or whatever they're firing at. even with BS 6 from the dragoons ability you are still looking at an average of about 12 wounds a turn
rvd1ofakind wrote: 22 units in the Codex:
17 Ad Mech + 5 knights(I assume). So hooray, no new units
Although the wording is "22 datasheets with rules and point values for each Adeptus Mechanicus miniature". So there is a chance, albeit a very very VERY small one, that we'll get 5 new units.
But it also say " Combining the previous codexes Adeptus Mechanicus, Skitarii and Imperial Knighs in one book!" So, again, I really doubt we'll get new units
Nooo...
I mean, it could be 4 new datasheets and 1 Mechanicum Knight datasheet, but that seems unlikely.
By this argument, we shouldn't run screens at all. I mean, even Conscripts don't do much damage. Their value is in how they can body block, sponge wounds, and maybe kill GEQs. They can't even threaten the Dragoons that you're comparing them unfavorably against, which cost only 8 more points more.
20 conscripts are 60 points that's 8 points cheaper than A SINGLE dragoon. not the unit of two, they're less than half the price, take up way more space, put out 6 times the number of attacks in melee, 80 shots in shooting (FRFSRF), and if you add a commissar you can have a power fist in there too. but truth be told they won't be minimum squad size and they will not charge you they'll simply FRFSRF you to death then charge if they need to. which a max squad size conscrpit blob should be able to take out a pair of dragoons in a single turn.
in theory a max size concript blob if they FRFSRF and get the charge off gets 250 attacks a that turn and is 150 points. granted they're BSWS 5 at str 3 but that's 250 attacks and 200 of them are shooting, the extra 50 just make sure those 4 dragoons die a horrible death. or whatever they're firing at. even with BS 6 from the dragoons ability you are still looking at an average of about 12 wounds a turn
Your argument here doesn't seem to rise above describing Conscripts. Yes, they are 8 points cheaper than a Dragoon, deny a lot of ground with their bodies, and can fire 80 shots with FRFSRF. We know. However, I might as well try to argue that Conscripts are useless by saying they can't run 10" or have a 33% chance of making plasma explode like a Dragoon. If you want to compare 45 Conscripts to 2 Dragoons, same difference.
Conscripts can do some damage against other GEQ, but your math is mistaken if you think any reasonable number of Conscripts can wipe two Dragoons in a single turn. Terribly so. Conscripts hit Dragoons on a roll of 6 (5+BS with -1 to hit from Incense Cloud) and wound on a roll of 6 (3S is half of 6T). Dragoons have a 4+ save (3+ with Shroudpsalm, but let's say he doesn't have it this time) and 6 Wounds. To deal 12 wounds in one turn, you need 12*6*6*2 = 864 shots. That means 216 Conscripts in Rapid Fire range and FRFSRF. That is 648 vs 136 points. I would be glad to tie up that many points of shooting with my screening unit. As for CC, I'm not worried either. 45 Conscripts can't even fully pile in around 2 Dragoon bases with the 3" move; two ranks of 22 Conscripts is 21" wide.
Indeed, considering virtually every Imperium army just about relies on Conscripts, can you not see how Dragoons can be advantageously against them as a screen? To use your (flawed) argument, wouldn't taking Conscripts be spending points that "do nothing" either because the enemy isn't afraid of them, can tie them up with cheaper units, or outright just ignore them?
rvd1ofakind wrote: I've heard some bad rumors along the lines of Kataphrons not getting a pts drop. If they have not been changed(or directly affected by stratagems or whatever), GW is confirmed as completelly inept
That would thoroughly tick me off. Unless a pre-emptive Errata drops same day to fix them. They are entirely overpriced.
And I doubt they will mess with Kastelans. My cynical side says the $69 kit will be one they want to keep moving.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I've heard some bad rumors along the lines of Kataphrons not getting a pts drop. If they have not been changed(or directly affected by stratagems or whatever), GW is confirmed as completelly inept
That would thoroughly tick me off. Unless a pre-emptive Errata drops same day to fix them. They are entirely overpriced.
And I doubt they will mess with Kastelans. My cynical side says the $69 kit will be one they want to keep moving.
$52 for me. My local store made some sort of deal with the devil and sells everything gw 20% off and I get store bonuses on top of that
Skimmers (like the wave serpent) have the Fly keyword but don't have any of the "true flyer" stuff like Hard to Hit. So they're in the same boat as jump pack units. Which is why earlier I said that the Icarus would be hitting them on 2+, unless of course they get a -1 to hit from some sort of Eldar trickery (which is a possibility).
I'd expect the really severe fall-off point to be T8, since the majority of its damage is in its two S7 profiles it would go from mostly wounding on 4+ to everything wounding on 5+.
Though the Icarus does also have some problems with 3+ and 2+ saves, since while the 1d6 shot is AP-3 the 4x2 set is only AP-1. The neutron laser definitely has an easier time dealing armor saves.
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.
Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.
Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
He suggested Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators as better screening units than Dragoons. He doesn't HAVE good ideas.
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.
Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
He suggested Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators as better screening units than Dragoons. He doesn't HAVE good ideas.
I regularly use the terminators to great effect... no idea what your problem is. They out perform my onagers and kastelans...
Dear Omnissiah, stop arguing like a gaggle of low-fuelled meatbags. Different things work in different metas, even if it is an attempt at argument by anecdote.
Forge World Focus: Graia One of the most exciting features of the new Adeptus Mechanicus codex is rules for seven different forge worlds, allowing you to customise your collection more than ever before with powerful and thematic new abilities. This week, we’ll be previewing what the forge world rules mean for your army in our daily previews of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus in advance of the pre-order this Saturday:
Graia is the most tenacious of the forge worlds, and every Tech-Priest and soldier of the planet is hard-wired to think only in terms of ruthless, uncompromising logic. Even Psykers find that their magics cannot find purchase on the sheer wall of absolute rationality projected by the Graian forces.
On the tabletop, Graian armis have a handy dogma that helps increase the durability of massed units considerably – Refusal To Yield:
This dogma is great on single wound models, essentially providing them with an additional layer of saving throws, while for high-points cost models, the potential to ignore a potentially fatal wound and keep fighting is very handy indeed. Nearly every unit in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex also possesses a 6+ invulnerable save, meaning that you could be ignoring a third of wounds.
Best Units
Fulgurite Electro-Priests are already a superb unit, capable of dealing huge damage in assault and growing in power thanks to Siphoned Vigour bringing them up to a 3+ Invulnerable Save. With the Graia dogma, a group of Fulgurite Electro-Priests get this save, followed by a second pseudo-saving throw from Fanatical Devotion, followed by their final Refusal To Yield roll. In practice, this means you’ll be saving 83% of wounds from normal sources and 50% of mortal wounds.
Zealous Congregation, a new Adeptus Mechanicus Stratagem, even allows you to fight again, making these worshippers of the Motive Force an even more efficient option.
And Graia is up
Skitarii Vanguard also work superbly in Graia army; as we’ve stateda above, they’ll be ignoring at least a third of any incoming wounds, while Graia’s unique Warlord Trait means you’ll be able to use these guys as a fairly potent assault unit.
Usually, Vanguard must choose between firing with their weapons or weakening enemies with rad-saturation, but with Emotionless Clarity allowing them to shoot into combat, you won’t have to!
Graia is the army for you if you treasure durability above all else and want some handy insurance against mortal wounds (with the Death Guard around, you’ll need it!). Come back tomorrow, when we’ll be looking at Metalica, most relentless of the forge worlds.
Oh my! That Strategem! Really helps the Fulgurites finish off units to get that buff.
And armywide 6+ FNP-ish extra save thing... oof. While it is only a 16% chance to stop a loss, that is not too shabby. I doubt it will be a strategy you build on so much as just something that lends to our durability.
Verviedi wrote: Graia seems good, but obviously not as absolutely amazing as Mars. I fear that we'll end up with Mars as the only option in a competitive environment.
We got a few more to go!
...but yea, I am getting that feeling too.
Now that Graia appears to be what was predicted to be Metalica, I am kinda curious as to what my FW will wind up getting!
Verviedi wrote: I think the best part of these reviews are the beautiful unit headers. We will have the most beautiful OP of them all when I get them in.
Graia seems good, but obviously not as absolutely amazing as Mars. I fear that we'll end up with Mars as the only option in a competitive environment.
This is my fear as well but at least now there are actually reasons to not be Mars, outside of fluff reasons. I like to be a contrarian at times which is how I started AdMech. They are not played much locally and I didn't want to do Mars, pre 8th, just because... Looking forward to what the other FW get.
Graias warlord trait showed promise but it only works with assault and rapid fire weapons and as a warlord trait it can only be on one unit so your tpd walking around with skitarii...
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.
Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
He suggested Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators as better screening units than Dragoons. He doesn't HAVE good ideas.
I regularly use the terminators to great effect... no idea what your problem is. They out perform my onagers and kastelans...
The problem is, as someone that uses Grey Knights, we at the Grey Knight Tactica agree the regular Terminators are garbage AND they increased 2 points! On top of you not already knowing Acolytes were erratad to be 1 wound, I don't even know what game you're playing. Had you said Paladins I would be just a mild amount skeptical and wanting to hear more, but this isn't the case at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gendoikari87 wrote: Graias warlord trait showed promise but it only works with assault and rapid fire weapons and as a warlord trait it can only be on one unit so your tpd walking around with skitarii...
Honestly I think heavy weapons would've been a little odd to do that for when the enemy is that close. I'd prefer having the option for crunch purposes but fluff wise it does make sense.
Well over at the grey knight tactics you might be right when there's regular grey knights to take who I'm hoping to get soon but the terminators are working out well for me so far.
They're literally a few more points for an extra wound (making them super durable to 2 damage weapons) and attack, and get two heavy weapons at 5 man squads. Plus their sergeant hits on a 2+ in melee, making him a great candidate for a Hammer.
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ
Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice
As for the Forge Worlds traits we've had so far, I'm disappointed that Mars will probably still be the most competitive choice thanks to the Uber Cawl, prepare to see Cawl + 6 Kastelans + 4 Onagers in every Imperial soup abomination lists in the near future.
Graia is really interesting and have somewhat original features, it's nice that it allows you to get back our precious FnP while still keeping the ++ (I'd have traded the ++ for the FnP honestly), and having the whole army having it even when fleeing is a nice feature. The shooting in CC thing looked amazing to me at first, then I remembered you're supposed to survive two rounds of CC against your unit of Vanguards for you to have the chance to kill a few with your Radium carbines. I can see it being pretty potent against weak hordes, given you still have a decent support. They'll most likely fall back when engaged by those though, but it can allow you some nice psychological shenanigans with the opponent. Do you want to make that unit fall back and so be useless for a turn or do you take your chances in striking my Vanguards down with their nice save and FnP ? Although in reality it'll still end in a slaughter in the Vanguards ranks. Still, anything that makes the Vanguards more valuable are welcome in my book. I always wanted to play 20-30 of them but this is of course just a dream until we see their price go down and their survivability go up.
I'm eager to see the other five Forge Worlds rules before making my mind (and having read the codex of course) but for now Graia is the better choice for my playstyle, even if not the perfect one.
Can't wait to model my own Enginseers ! Really happy about this
EDIT: God damnit I wanted to be the one announcing the news
Now they just need to drop 3 points between kastelans onagers and the enginseer.... so I can fit a knight in at 1000 points and my dream of a 1000 point toughness 7/8 army will become realized
Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy
rvd1ofakind wrote: ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ
HEY MOM!! I GOT A PROMOTION!!!!
Assuming points stay the same this means an Enginseer and four Servitors w/ two plasma cannons will come in at about 15 points less than a Dominus.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy
And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.
rvd1ofakind wrote: ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ
Is your second part of this referring to the Graia trait? I assume it is, but there's no point sending for an FAQ as the rule is very clear. You only get the 6+++ on slain or fleeing models. So on a multiwound model, you would only get the 6+ after they lose their final wound, you definitely would not get 3 6+ rolls.
So it's a great trait for single-wound models, so units of priests or vanguard get a LOT of mileage out of it. Dragoons and Kastellan get a lot less out of it, but still nice to have that 1/6 chance of staying alive an extra turn.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy
And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.
I also plan to buy that model, though I was going to use it in a totally seperate thing lol. Is a nice model, and I like the servo-skulls too
rvd1ofakind wrote: Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy
And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.
I bought the set of those type servitors a few months ago and converted two of them to carry plasma cannons. Should have them finished painting in a few day. In the meantime...
gendoikari87 wrote: Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice
this is the most exciting thing to come out of all this yet
They're 7 more points, so look at it as 5 points for the extra wound and 2 for the extra attack.
If you're that concerned about price, they start at a base of 165 of three dudes. More specifically you get 10 wounds from the regular ones at 240 points, and 12 wounds with the Paladins is 220 points.
Also does the Enginseer do anything besides repair D3 on a vehicle? I get they're cheaper but if they don't do anything else I'm not sure how much more I'd use them over a regular Tech Priest.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy
And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.
I bought the set of those type servitors a few months ago and converted two of them to carry plasma cannons. Should have them finished painting in a few day. In the meantime...
Spoiler:
.
Those are the Scyllax. Similar, but I think much larger than the ones with the Macrotek.
rvd1ofakind wrote: ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ
Is your second part of this referring to the Graia trait? I assume it is, but there's no point sending for an FAQ as the rule is very clear. You only get the 6+++ on slain or fleeing models. So on a multiwound model, you would only get the 6+ after they lose their final wound, you definitely would not get 3 6+ rolls.
So it's a great trait for single-wound models, so units of priests or vanguard get a LOT of mileage out of it. Dragoons and Kastellan get a lot less out of it, but still nice to have that 1/6 chance of staying alive an extra turn.
It means if the Dragoon got a 12 damage shot somehow, he can live with a single 6+. Like, it doesn't matter what the damage is, it ignores all and stays on 1
That's what they will ask around and post on the FAQ
gendoikari87 wrote: Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice
this is the most exciting thing to come out of all this yet
They're 7 more points, so look at it as 5 points for the extra wound and 2 for the extra attack.
If you're that concerned about price, they start at a base of 165 of three dudes. More specifically you get 10 wounds from the regular ones at 240 points, and 12 wounds with the Paladins is 220 points.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also does the Enginseer do anything besides repair D3 on a vehicle? I get they're cheaper but if they don't do anything else I'm not sure how much more I'd use them over a regular Tech Priest.
Yep. That is all they do. But for a measly 52pt we open up a second detachment or enable a battalion, instead of the 135pt we have to pay for a TPD.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy
And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.
I bought the set of those type servitors a few months ago and converted two of them to carry plasma cannons. Should have them finished painting in a few day. In the meantime...
.
Those are the Scyllax. Similar, but I think much larger than the ones with the Macrotek.
True, but you could do the same style of conversion with either. I think both are fantastic looking models, much better than the cartoon style metal servitors GW currently sells.
gendoikari87 wrote: Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice
this is the most exciting thing to come out of all this yet
They're 7 more points, so look at it as 5 points for the extra wound and 2 for the extra attack.
If you're that concerned about price, they start at a base of 165 of three dudes. More specifically you get 10 wounds from the regular ones at 240 points, and 12 wounds with the Paladins is 220 points.
wait what paladins? 7 points that's it wtf ?
Yeah. To be fair to get any of the Heavy Weapons you need to get them at 5 man squads, but you're mostly concerned about the Psybolt Ammo Strategem and screening that isn't a concern.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also does the Enginseer do anything besides repair D3 on a vehicle? I get they're cheaper but if they don't do anything else I'm not sure how much more I'd use them over a regular Tech Priest.
Yep. That is all they do. But for a measly 52pt we open up a second detachment or enable a battalion, instead of the 135pt we have to pay for a TPD.
I suppose, but I'm still iffy on it. Still it's basically another Dragoon or Vanguard squad saved so I'm curious how it'll catch on.
Holy crap yeah going paladins as I regularly have a spare 35 points 5 man squad too cause that's what I got. Them infiltrators a gkgm tpd 2 kastelans and two onager is what I'll be trying Friday the
well its good that i build a enginseer out of scrap parts then. Finally am able to use him Graia seems cool, at least there is a chance to get kastelans in shooty protocol out of combat by shooting them^^
But all in all I think Mars still takes the cake...atm.
Iago40k wrote: well its good that i build a enginseer out of scrap parts then. Finally am able to use him Graia seems cool, at least there is a chance to get kastelans in shooty protocol out of combat by shooting them^^
But all in all I think Mars still takes the cake...atm.
Not too impressed with Graia's tactics, it's a pseudo 6+++ that only occurs on death or fleeing. Good for infantry and okay on vehicles for the potential to completely ignore multi damage wounds that would kill it, but you still only have a 1/6 chance of making it in a specific situation. I'd rather have a real 6+++ but that might be too OP considering it would be army wide. Strategem for electro priests to fight twice sounds good until you realize it's 3 CP and only for electro priests. CSMs do that for the same price and it applies to any of their Khorne infantry/bikers.
Graia definitely seems to be favoring the infantry heavy Ad Mech army but I don't think it beats out Mars and Cawl. Hopefully the other forge worlds have stronger abilities to at least compete with them.
Tactic: If a model with 3 wounds left takes 5 wounds, how many wounds actually kills it? Interesting it works against morale losses. Is that a first?
Warlord Trait: Situationally makes Corpsucarii absolutely bonkers. Wish it worked in heavy tho so Onagers/Kastelens could shoot. That would make them a contender vs Cawl.
Strat: Still feel like we're bleeding CP even with the change to Enginseers. Dont know if I'd ever end up spending 3 to use the strat.
They used the word "relentless" with Metalilica. I hope its not move/shoot heavy weapons at no penalty. Half the codex does that already.
rvd1ofakind wrote: ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ
Is your second part of this referring to the Graia trait? I assume it is, but there's no point sending for an FAQ as the rule is very clear. You only get the 6+++ on slain or fleeing models. So on a multiwound model, you would only get the 6+ after they lose their final wound, you definitely would not get 3 6+ rolls.
So it's a great trait for single-wound models, so units of priests or vanguard get a LOT of mileage out of it. Dragoons and Kastellan get a lot less out of it, but still nice to have that 1/6 chance of staying alive an extra turn.
It means if the Dragoon got a 12 damage shot somehow, he can live with a single 6+. Like, it doesn't matter what the damage is, it ignores all and stays on 1
That's what they will ask around and post on the FAQ
Ahh I see what you mean. I know with FNP if they take 10 damage they have to save each and every one seperately, but this rule does say it only happens when a model is "slain", and I'm not sure they can then continue taking damage after the "slain" phase... good point.
I guess my issue is that it's gone on for pages and pages. Yes, there was good information exchanged but I think the horse has been kicked to death with no new info come to light in the recent exchanges. Lets wait for the dex to come out and see how that changes things... then I'll gladly watch the debate re-engaged.
Well so far my list would be
Cawl + Heavy Support (Spearhead) - Mars
Enginseers + infantry - Graia (can be Batallion or Vanguard depending if Skitarii are good or not)
Again, all hypothetical, we don't know anything about how good units might be.
I'm not sure why people are closed to the multiple Forgeworld idea
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well so far my list would be
Cawl + Heavy Support (Spearhead) - Mars
Enginseers + infantry - Graia (can be Batallion or Vanguard depending if Skitarii are good or not)
Again, all hypothetical, we don't know anything about how good units might be.
I'm not sure why people are closed to the multiple Forgeworld idea
It may have applications. I think it is just too soon to tell. Having Mars for Cawl & Kastellans seems a no-brainer though. That Spearhead writes itself.
The main issues are not directly answered as i see it. Nice additions sure and im happy for a crappy 52 point tax doing nothing than opening my gaia dragoon detach. Could use a fast cheap hq . Or could use priests as hq for 70-80 points directly. Better than stupid tax. Why priests cant be hq directly an hq command squad and get on with it.
Same goes for vanguard. Buffing them when they cost 50 points /5 give a lower costs at least when going for 10 droping close to either ig or buff them to marines. What good are they still a tax.
Nice buffs might be also better with relics till priests gotta pay tax hq nd still gotta move 6. I dont see why your so happy.
Mars Cawl warlord rerolls 6+ mortals etc is far far from others.
I already changed my list to setups with another detachment and gaia was what i wanted for my priests and dragoons. Survive etc.
The techpriest hq wont cut it. Either make priests hq command option. Or vanguard alpha hq or dunno. Throwing nd engiseer tax again makes a vanguard extremely expensive yet again. As i guessed poor designing and fast cocex with no real changes. Hoe would we be competitive when we gotta pay 202 points for 15 vanguard and an engiseer bare bones?
Bla bla is nice relics stratagems but competitive beyond mars again seems stil expnsive no transport still lucking same isues. etc.
If thats all they gonna do forge world buffs with paying cost we got zero and it was expected.
We are ig brigade Mars spearhead again with a buff on robots ...
The army I think will play much the same unless some of the rules on the actual units change, which I'm not thinking is going to happen.
Theres only so much that can be done with points adjustments.
Still, with the Enginseer moved to HQ you should be able to squeak out a few more CP for minimal investment, tho I'm not sure its worth the drop in firepower! It will depend on what happens with knights.
If knights are fully Forge World models, then my Spearhead+knight list probably wont change, but get slightly better.
gendoikari87 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but does the aura abilities stretch across detachment? If not they still won't work on knights will they?
They work across all detachments as long as rules apply.
Okay, this Graia preview is strangely written.
1. Is there a reason they kept the <Forge World> tag in the Forgeworld specific Dogma?
2. Is there ever a case where this actually happens?
"Usually, Vanguard must choose between firing with their weapons or weakening enemies with rad-saturation, but with Emotionless Clarity allowing them to shoot into combat, you won’t have to!"
You can shoot rapidfire/assault and still charge to get bonus.
If they have been charged, they can't shoot.
If they are still in combat on your turn, they can fallback (cant shoot) or stay in (rad saturation, can't shoot)
We cant compete with out stratagems. Thats the whole issue. We need stratagems when one has 3 points and its not even in par with other armies what is our chance??
I dont want to gt all the love from gw? Nor asked new models en mass. But you see priest in need of a buff to work in smaller groups and vanguards need to be active again. Great give vanguard sergent hq and a cheap vnguard blop. Make priest gaia hq command unit for 70 points . Where is the problem i dont get it. Clearly its not big changes but you cant expect us or anyne to play seriousoy ad mech in a meta game of stratagems with Cawl tech priest and engiseer hq option. For real?
Where is the problem seperating alphas from units making them a bit cheaper when they go over 5 since they are more vunerable and then give options. Whats the problem with a vanguard alpha or a rustalker leading or even better some elites becomjng command units. Such a big deal. Wont affect so kuch the design team and might even start playing rest of the ad mech models.
Is it hard???
Tech priest healing knights. Ok thats about how far i see them think we want to play. Bet the knight back. Well the rest of us and i got a few knights where hoing to see the merge skitarii cult as reall army. 3 hq great one named to make detachments . I really hope thats not all they have done. Wont convince me with a firework a second time in a row sorry no. I ll not send a dime again in ad mech if they dont get serious. That about. Ok with 8th ok with trying to make it balanced no ore mocking in my face. There is bsolutely no chwnce someone has not seen we got 3 hq
None has asked them about chep soldiers. None for hq options? How is it blnced whe others got 40 hq and we got 3? I gotta play a gaia survival detwchment with dragoons and vanguard lead but an engiseer. Are you a joke there in gw? My enemy plays with 14++ cps and i got an engiseer thats prwcticwlly cwnt do nothing? Ot even the datasmith that worth something. We gotta pay another stupid 52 points to make a useless 50 point / unit oldiers what all other armies have? None hs seen this or asked this once more?? What have been talking 200 pages forum so far??? What? None send them a wake up make sergents viable. With a melee buff for gaia ?? Make some sort of hq even if it is a tech priest with melee option. What is this full codex. Paints? And fireworks??
gendoikari87 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but does the aura abilities stretch across detachment? If not they still won't work on knights will they?
They work across all detachments as long as rules apply.
Okay, this Graia preview is strangely written.
1. Is there a reason they kept the <Forge World> tag in the Forgeworld specific Dogma?
I think this is because of something similar to successor chapters in space marines... as in you might have your own name for your Forge World, but you might choose to use the Graia dogma. It just means all the units must have the same <forgeworld> name, whatever it is. Though it's a little odd, as someone may try and choose <MARS> and use the Graia dogma,
but still have Cawls benefits.... actually I guess there's no reason why you can't, as you can only have one dogma, so it would be Graias instead of Mars' dogma.
2. Is there ever a case where this actually happens?
"Usually, Vanguard must choose between firing with their weapons or weakening enemies with rad-saturation, but with Emotionless Clarity allowing them to shoot into combat, you won’t have to!"
You can shoot rapidfire/assault and still charge to get bonus.
If they have been charged, they can't shoot.
If they are still in combat on your turn, they can fallback (cant shoot) or stay in (rad saturation, can't shoot)
I think they're just ham-fistedly trying to say that they have a choice between staying back and shooting, or running in to melee range and giving rad-saturation, as they can't do both at the same time. Sure they can shoot then charge, but the target wouldn't have -1 toughness during the shooting so it still would be one or the other not both. Except with this strategem, as it allows an enemy unit to have -1 toughness from radiation against shooting attacks, instead of only against melee attacks like it was before.
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gendoikari87 wrote: So far remember the rumor is stygies gets raven guard rules and that's really good for shooty armies
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rvd1ofakind wrote: I don't think I've ever said anything about bat grammar. But Yoda's posts are making my eyes bleed. So many typos too
they are hard to read but let's be nice I don't think English is their first language also... irony.
I was also going to say, pretty sure Yoda's first language isn't English and he's doing pretty well nonetheless, and also HOLY BAT-GRAMMAR BATMAN!
He is. It's sentence structure and syntax that makes it hard to read more than grammar or spelling. It's not wrong or grammatically incorrect it's just an unusual way of speaking.
gendoikari87 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but does the aura abilities stretch across detachment? If not they still won't work on knights will they?
I think this is because of something similar to successor chapters in space marines... as in you might have your own name for your Forge World, but you might choose to use the Graia dogma. It just means all the units must have the same <forgeworld> name, whatever it is. Though it's a little odd, as someone may try and choose <MARS> and use the Graia dogma,
but still have Cawls benefits.... actually I guess there's no reason why you can't, as you can only have one dogma, so it would be Graias instead of Mars' dogma.
2. Is there ever a case where this actually happens?
"Usually, Vanguard must choose between firing with their weapons or weakening enemies with rad-saturation, but with Emotionless Clarity allowing them to shoot into combat, you won’t have to!"
You can shoot rapidfire/assault and still charge to get bonus.
If they have been charged, they can't shoot.
If they are still in combat on your turn, they can fallback (cant shoot) or stay in (rad saturation, can't shoot)
I think they're just ham-fistedly trying to say that they have a choice between staying back and shooting, or running in to melee range and giving rad-saturation, as they can't do both at the same time. Sure they can shoot then charge, but the target wouldn't have -1 toughness during the shooting so it still would be one or the other not both. Except with this strategem, as it allows an enemy unit to have -1 toughness from radiation against shooting attacks, instead of only against melee attacks like it was before.
I didnt think about alternate forgeworlds. Good point!
Unfortunately, I dont believe that you can run into melee range in the current version of the rules. Sure would be handy tho!
I think Graia will be a bit of a pass for me. Its unfortunate, but every other forgeworld is going to have to have something for the opportunity cost of trading Cawl for a TPD.
If that Warlord trait was heavy weapons, I think I'd be in business.
gendoikari87 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but does the aura abilities stretch across detachment? If not they still won't work on knights will they?
I think this is because of something similar to successor chapters in space marines... as in you might have your own name for your Forge World, but you might choose to use the Graia dogma. It just means all the units must have the same <forgeworld> name, whatever it is. Though it's a little odd, as someone may try and choose <MARS> and use the Graia dogma,
but still have Cawls benefits.... actually I guess there's no reason why you can't, as you can only have one dogma, so it would be Graias instead of Mars' dogma.
2. Is there ever a case where this actually happens?
"Usually, Vanguard must choose between firing with their weapons or weakening enemies with rad-saturation, but with Emotionless Clarity allowing them to shoot into combat, you won’t have to!"
You can shoot rapidfire/assault and still charge to get bonus.
If they have been charged, they can't shoot.
If they are still in combat on your turn, they can fallback (cant shoot) or stay in (rad saturation, can't shoot)
I think they're just ham-fistedly trying to say that they have a choice between staying back and shooting, or running in to melee range and giving rad-saturation, as they can't do both at the same time. Sure they can shoot then charge, but the target wouldn't have -1 toughness during the shooting so it still would be one or the other not both. Except with this strategem, as it allows an enemy unit to have -1 toughness from radiation against shooting attacks, instead of only against melee attacks like it was before.
I didnt think about alternate forgeworlds. Good point!
Unfortunately, I dont believe that you can run into melee range in the current version of the rules. Sure would be handy tho!
I think Graia will be a bit of a pass for me. Its unfortunate, but every other forgeworld is going to have to have something for the opportunity cost of trading Cawl for a TPD.
If that Warlord trait was heavy weapons, I think I'd be in business.
Haha, by "run into melee range" I meant charging. I realise now that they're two seperate things in this game, but I was being narrative rather than match-play about my description lol
Hmm, Enginseer being moved to HQ is potentially interesting for IG too. A superheavy tank's support vehicles could be led by an enginseer who can repair them instead of a CC who does nothing for them, for example. And if they were going to take an enginseer anyway, hey saves them 30 points.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy
And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.
I just went and bought one of these. (I'm not going to immediately assume that the TPD is being written off; he may get improvements to make up for this change.)
If Servo-Arms get a points reduction (and they should, given Power Fists got one), we can use the Servo-Automata as Servitors; just buy some Heavy Bolter bits and stick them in the gimpy arm slot.
Enginseer, 2x2 Servitors, 1x Data-Smith, and 2x2 Kastelan is a Vanguard Detachment.
Sorry but.. 1) not my native language
2) usually i dont have so much time and i skip the edit reading my post.
3) when i use my tablet this crap types whatever?
I wont hold it against you if you ignore me just trying to contribute.
Suzuteo says most of the things i would either way!!
P.s someone make them place the datasmith as hq. Give the priests option to be a command squad hq. And maybe some cheap hq sergents reducing the infantry cost while there and fast. I ll settle with even datasmith and a cheap melee option like priest cmmand squad.
If taken for battalion hq, 2x techpriest are 166 pts cheaper than 2x TDP . For me thats more than one castellan, 10 man electropriests squad ect. For me it's a lot, giving how much i struggle with body counts in my lists.
One may hope that with fires of Cyraxus we will get TPReductor with all HH goodies.
Again, another set of rules tat make me desperate for Corpus Electro Priests...
With fast moving Assault as our big threat - we have a unit that can 'shoot' 4 times in assault on a 3+ with exploding 6s, then 'fight' 4 times in assault on a 4+ with exploding 6s.. with a strategm that allows them to do this twice! That's just insanely good!
Absolutely hideous models though. Really hoping that Rangers/Vanguard get some buffs in this codex, they're the main reason I would want to start an AdMech army.
Yeah hope for a year more to make a list to participate in any serious event. Right. Cause they cant reduce the cost of soldiers remove the alpha and open up the option to take as hq. Cant give a cchq. Cant give simple variations when the game clearly takes a turn towards command points. Gaia stratagem 3 point cost. Are they for real in gw? Same stratagem as others with less options worse overall and again gotta take the tech priest really???
Yeah lets w8 again for another expansion a faq and errata to clearly play ad mech. Great lets all w8. And dont forget buy the codex for the stratagems you will use playing astra militarum.thanks god we got the codex...
I say its about time we go in mass and complain for this crap. One more time selling fireworks gw wont work. In mass people. Wake up. Wont win with techpriest eng nothing. Nor stratagems you wont have cps to use. Seriously go confront them now in social media its a joke.
Still hoping for more but as i see it it will be forge world and non usable 3 point stratagem in a spearhead army. We all saw the need of a transport some cheap hq some cost fixing and they release stratagems we dont have cps to play sub par even with other armies that got at least proper scaling and units???
Arachnofiend wrote: Absolutely hideous models though. Really hoping that Rangers/Vanguard get some buffs in this codex, they're the main reason I would want to start an AdMech army.
I just use my skitarii to convert into infiltrators. and i don't think anyone would say infiltrators are bad.
Zealous Congregation isn't the Graia stratagem, it's one of the general AdMech ones. And it costs the same as the identical stratagem that Khorne CSM get, so... yeah.
You shouldn't assume that AdMech will continue to be shoehorned into a Spearhead army. There will be buffs somewhere, and the troop choices very well can be made strong enough to make a Battalion a reasonable choice. It's also possible that AdMech gets nothing that pushes it out of bottom tier, but you can't just assume the worst about everything.
Arachnofiend wrote: Absolutely hideous models though. Really hoping that Rangers/Vanguard get some buffs in this codex, they're the main reason I would want to start an AdMech army.
I just use my skitarii to convert into infiltrators. and i don't think anyone would say infiltrators are bad.
I do love the Infiltrator models but I'd rather use them as Infiltrators, lol.
I judge what i see and how i see it heading. I have proven my army decisions when i spend a lot of money on plastic. And when i get fed with great words of new edition new options etc and i see talks about community heard i wanna see it. I dont want a codex once more and them play with faq errata in hand again and again. Cant be so hard to read 200 players saying the same thing.
1) datasmith as hq. Priest as command squads!!
2) a unit can advance and charge once instead of shooting.
3) canticle fall back and charge this turn.
4) alphas as hq 5) when taken vang or rangers unit of 10 reduce cost.
6) add buff auras on melee for tech priest as they are.
7) any option for changing setup weapons canticles buffs whaever for units already in use.
Arachnofiend wrote: Absolutely hideous models though. Really hoping that Rangers/Vanguard get some buffs in this codex, they're the main reason I would want to start an AdMech army.
I just use my skitarii to convert into infiltrators. and i don't think anyone would say infiltrators are bad.
I think he meant Electro priest with that.
Matter of taste. I like blue guys. Gonna make conversion where they will be levitating/surfing lighting. And maybe change some heads. Full super Sayan mode
Arachnofiend wrote: Absolutely hideous models though. Really hoping that Rangers/Vanguard get some buffs in this codex, they're the main reason I would want to start an AdMech army.
I just use my skitarii to convert into infiltrators. and i don't think anyone would say infiltrators are bad.
I think he meant Electro priest with that.
Matter of taste. I like blue guys. Gonna make conversion where they will be levitating/surfing lighting. And maybe change some heads. Full super Sayan mode
I think a lot of what we're seeing is pointing to the next big list-building dillemma:
1) Large detachments with inferior bubble wrap.
2) Multiple small detachments.
On the plus side, Graia Skitarii are at least not-useless in melee. In fact, there are definite advantages now that they have exploding 6s, FNP on a 6, and that -1T aura that applies to both shooting AND fighting. Though sorting out what is the "closest" unit on a model-by-model basis might be annoying.
Something else that seems to be interesting: UNITS take dogmas. Not detachments. So you can--and should--pick and choose from a variety of dogmas on a unit-by-unit case. (HQs are going to look like the grimdark Power Rangers before we're through.)
Suzuteo wrote: I think a lot of what we're seeing is pointing to the next big list-building dillemma:
1) Large detachments with inferior bubble wrap.
2) Multiple small detachments.
On the plus side, Graia Skitarii are at least not-useless in melee. In fact, there are definite advantages now that they have exploding 6s, FNP on a 6, and that -1T aura that applies to both shooting AND fighting. Though sorting out what is the "closest" unit on a model-by-model basis might be annoying.
Something else that seems to be interesting: UNITS take dogmas. Not detachments. So you can--and should--pick and choose from a variety of dogmas on a unit-by-unit case. (HQs are going to look like the grimdark Power Rangers before we're through.)
Hmm... I'm not convinced that's true, unless there has been some pages in the codex leaked that I haven't seen yet. In the Chaos codex, legions are chosen unit by unit, BUT the traits for that legion are only activated "so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion". I would expect the Dogma page to have the same rule, that all units in a detachment must have the same dogma.
Suzuteo wrote: I think a lot of what we're seeing is pointing to the next big list-building dillemma:
1) Large detachments with inferior bubble wrap.
2) Multiple small detachments.
On the plus side, Graia Skitarii are at least not-useless in melee. In fact, there are definite advantages now that they have exploding 6s, FNP on a 6, and that -1T aura that applies to both shooting AND fighting. Though sorting out what is the "closest" unit on a model-by-model basis might be annoying.
Something else that seems to be interesting: UNITS take dogmas. Not detachments. So you can--and should--pick and choose from a variety of dogmas on a unit-by-unit case. (HQs are going to look like the grimdark Power Rangers before we're through.)
I'm not sold on Graia skitarii being non-useless. In typical MSU style you might get one more wound out of them on average, and they only benefit from -1T from their own shooting if they survived a turn in melee.
Suzuteo wrote: I think a lot of what we're seeing is pointing to the next big list-building dillemma:
1) Large detachments with inferior bubble wrap.
2) Multiple small detachments.
On the plus side, Graia Skitarii are at least not-useless in melee. In fact, there are definite advantages now that they have exploding 6s, FNP on a 6, and that -1T aura that applies to both shooting AND fighting. Though sorting out what is the "closest" unit on a model-by-model basis might be annoying.
Something else that seems to be interesting: UNITS take dogmas. Not detachments. So you can--and should--pick and choose from a variety of dogmas on a unit-by-unit case. (HQs are going to look like the grimdark Power Rangers before we're through.)
I'm not sold on Graia skitarii being non-useless. In typical MSU style you might get one more wound out of them on average, and they only benefit from -1T from their own shooting if they survived a turn in melee.
Not exactly great odds.
Now a -1 to hit, however....
not likely they changed the rad cleansing to a -1 to hit.... -1 to STR ... maybe and that's the same odds there in most cases
Hmm... I'm not convinced that's true, unless there has been some pages in the codex leaked that I haven't seen yet. In the Chaos codex, legions are chosen unit by unit, BUT the traits for that legion are only activated "so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion". I would expect the Dogma page to have the same rule, that all units in a detachment must have the same dogma.
True, but it seems weird to have that separate penalty for the HQ. Unless they are concerned about people taking lone AdMech units? >_>
I'm not sold on Graia skitarii being non-useless. In typical MSU style you might get one more wound out of them on average, and they only benefit from -1T from their own shooting if they survived a turn in melee.
not likely they changed the rad cleansing to a -1 to hit.... -1 to STR ... maybe and that's the same odds there in most cases
I would keep an open mind. I mean, I can see a role for Skitarii if they were built for it and had enough value-added. That being said, it obviously depends on what they would be charging. We would probably be using maximum Vanguard squads, and the Alpha would have an EDT, Taser Goad, and possibly one of those relics we haven't seen yet. Who remembers Pater Radium?
Also, remind me again, the -1 to hit would stack with Incense Cloud and Smoke Launchers, correct?
Hmm... I'm not convinced that's true, unless there has been some pages in the codex leaked that I haven't seen yet. In the Chaos codex, legions are chosen unit by unit, BUT the traits for that legion are only activated "so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion". I would expect the Dogma page to have the same rule, that all units in a detachment must have the same dogma.
True, but it seems weird to have that separate penalty for the HQ. Unless they are concerned about people taking lone AdMech units? >_>
It is odd they added that in, but it says "on the battlefield", so if you only take one HQ and they get killed early on then your guys wont be able to fall back anymore. I think it's just a fluff rule, that makes you need to keep an eye on your characters.
I'm not sold on Graia skitarii being non-useless. In typical MSU style you might get one more wound out of them on average, and they only benefit from -1T from their own shooting if they survived a turn in melee.
not likely they changed the rad cleansing to a -1 to hit.... -1 to STR ... maybe and that's the same odds there in most cases
I would keep an open mind. I mean, I can see a role for Skitarii if they were built for it and had enough value-added. That being said, it obviously depends on what they would be charging. We would probably be using maximum Vanguard squads, and the Alpha would have an EDT, Taser Goad, and possibly one of those relics we haven't seen yet. Who remembers Pater Radium?
Also, remind me again, the -1 to hit would stack with Incense Cloud and Smoke Launchers, correct?
Dragoons dont get smoke launchers.. I'm not sure what unit you're talking about that can stack both incense and smoke
Also, remind me again, the -1 to hit would stack with Incense Cloud and Smoke Launchers, correct?
Only characters can take relics though, so putting em on alphas is out in 8th.
It would, Dragoons don't have smoke launchers though :(
I really like the graia stuff we saw. I'm not sure it's enough on its own, definitely need to see what's changed on units. Generally most new codexes have made units cheaper to field' very few have gone up in points. Hopefully that means dragoons, priests and vanguard/rangers go down. Though I'd quite like to have the option to field a 20 man squad of vanguard with 6 special weapons. Hell maybe given them more special weapons if you field 20. Graias rule does mean we can fire plasma and arc rifles in combat then....they still need to survive though. But at least vanguard and rangers are back to 7th ed durability under graia.
A quick look through the index tells me that the graia warlord trait allows cawl to fire his atomiser in combat and also allows kataphron destroyers to fire flamers or phosphor blasters in combat. Not as nice as being able to fire the heavy stuff, but if kataphrons get a points reduction it could make them more viable troops choices for cp acquisition.
I dunno, we ask for a cheaper ha choice and get one. People still complaining gw is trolling us. Aside from the re roll aura my TPD pretty much 1 to 1 shadow a dune crawler for repairs in the low points cost battles I've had. Paying a fraction of the points cost for them still to be able to repair my crawlers seems like a good deal to me. They just as good in melee as a TPD too.
I like that the rumours of the faction rules haven't been 100% dead right so far. Yeah we got a fnp, but imo it's actually a bit better and much more fluffy. I don't want carbon copies of other army rules, I play admech because they're different, interesting and cool. The fact that every weapon is unique and has its own rules might be daunting to some, but that makes them all the more fun to play.
What I want next is for them to make ruststalkers useful, I love the models, especially with the claws but they're next to useless in combat and they should be vicious killing machines mowing through power armour with surgical precision. Make it so GW!
I would not be surprised if we are completelly disgusted by the codex. Only to be saved by an faq in a few days after the actual release of the codex.
Reason: the codex has been written a looooong time ago. Now that they've seen the dud results in tournaments, they might do most of the pts changes in an FAQ
rvd1ofakind wrote: I would not be surprised if we are completelly disgusted by the codex. Only to be saved by an faq in a few days after the actual release of the codex.
Reason: the codex has been written a looooong time ago. Now that they've seen the dud results in tournaments, they might do most of the pts changes in an FAQ
rvd1ofakind wrote: I would not be surprised if we are completelly disgusted by the codex. Only to be saved by an faq in a few days after the actual release of the codex.
Reason: the codex has been written a looooong time ago. Now that they've seen the dud results in tournaments, they might do most of the pts changes in an FAQ
Actually, they reduced the point costs of many weapons and units in the SM and CSM codexes. I think we're going to see minor buffs all around.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I would not be surprised if we are completelly disgusted by the codex. Only to be saved by an faq in a few days after the actual release of the codex.
Reason: the codex has been written a looooong time ago. Now that they've seen the dud results in tournaments, they might do most of the pts changes in an FAQ
Actually, they reduced the point costs of many weapons and units in the SM and CSM codexes. I think we're going to see minor buffs all around.
Yes but hearing the rumors of Kataphrons (one of our worst units) not reduced in pts is concerning.
Obliterators weren't reduced in price and they went from one of the worst units in the Chaos codex to one of the best. I dunno what could be done with Kataphrons that wouldn't involve a price drop but I'd be pretty surprised if they don't do something.
Arachnofiend wrote: Obliterators weren't reduced in price and they went from one of the worst units in the Chaos codex to one of the best. I dunno what could be done with Kataphrons that wouldn't involve a price drop but I'd be pretty surprised if they don't do something.
No doubt. Adding two more shots per model + stratagem to be able to shoot twice took them from zero to hero.
While I doubt any weapon stat changes come to Breachers/Destroyers, who knows what potential stratagems might let you do.
With a cost 200+ dont really care about stratagems. And so far an engiseer wont give neither cheap hq. Nor optins to make detachments. All our troops expensive. Good stratagems firework codex on solutions.
Bla bla stratagems bla bla no cps yet bla bla paints bla bla 2 hq + Cawl army wide. So its ig troops again..
Iago40k wrote: well its good that i build a enginseer out of scrap parts then. Finally am able to use him Graia seems cool, at least there is a chance to get kastelans in shooty protocol out of combat by shooting them^^
But all in all I think Mars still takes the cake...atm.
Assault and Rapid Fire only, sadly. Not Heavy.
I know. The idea behind it was, since our melee is extra weak, to at least get some vanguard into the fight to shoot down whats holding my bots in melee. Thats nigh impossible atm.
We got counter units superb. And rustalkers and priests. Especially with new double hitting are extremely nice. Still they got no hq to lead them . Either slow otions or no options. All melee counter units no transport to survive or run. Gaia extra survival skill merely puts our units in par with other armies. Especially cost wise
Guys relax. we get shroudsalm most the time with mars so most of our troops are 3+ to hit in shooting. and stygies is going to basically give incence cloud to everyone. relax. so graia wasn't all it was cracked up to be. we have several more forgeworlds with potential to look forward to.
If Stygies is -1 to be hit that sounds strongest to me so far. Cawl is best with Kastellans which are indeed super awesome... but a Stygies force with a bunch of Neutron Onagers could be good and would free up the cost difference between Cawl and a Dominus.
Too bad the onagers mostly just anti tank. That -1 to hit ground taegets really hurts the Icarus for anti infantry/meq. And the twin phosphor blaster is ...... meeeeeeeeh when for cheaper you get three on the kastelans and can double tap
Automatically Appended Next Post: Be nice if gw were to add like a Gatling gun to the onagers weapon options
I realöy dont see a bubble wrap dilemma. You only need dragoons and vanguard for that. They were a solid choice just with the index and now with the codex they will be way better. There is no need to have a 100 man concript screen.
gendoikari87 wrote: Too bad the onagers mostly just anti tank. That -1 to hit ground taegets really hurts the Icarus for anti infantry/meq. And the twin phosphor blaster is ...... meeeeeeeeh when for cheaper you get three on the kastelans and can double tap
Automatically Appended Next Post: Be nice if gw were to add like a Gatling gun to the onagers weapon options
The Onager is not built for anti-infantry, we already have most of the codex to deal with that. You're not supposed to shoot at ground targets with the Icarus Array neither because it's... an Anti-Fly weapon. I agree the twin Phosphor Blaster is awful on the Onager, precisely because Kastelan Robots do it better, but the Onager is a powerful anti-tank platform so no one in their right mind would equip them with the Blaster.
Keep faith for all we know they get +1w to every model, or +1T or fnp 5+ or +1 to armor saves or double movement or something. When nothing is known everything is infinitely possible
No no, it is worse. Because it doesn't impact my heavy weapons, so my Robots still get a penalty to shoot in Aegis. Good stuff. It has pretty much zero impact on the actual army I run, so... Mars count-as it is, unless something else seems more useful.
Currently looks like I am going for Mars. If Stygies is a -1 to-hit across the board for all units, including robots, Dragoons, and Onagers, I may use that as it does increase our durability. BUT, we lose Cawl at that point unless we do multiple detachments, for which if it does impact Dragoons I may do an Enginseer in Outrider with my Dragoons for that sweet, sweet -2 to-hit... but I doubt that will happen.
I do like the new stratagem at least, and I think it will see use in quite a few lists. Ironstriders could advance and still hit on 3+s with lascannons, or you could add +2 to your Onagers, which isn't too shabby since several armies utilize a -1 to hit.
My FW is tomorrow and from their comment it will have something to do with armor saves or some such. I'm not surprised since the metal is referenced in the 7ed codex. Anyone have guesses based on other codexes?
My pipe dream of getting deepstrike since our Titans can teleport is just that, lol. Not at all surprised since it would actually make it possible to get into CC a bit easier with priests.
bortass wrote: My FW is tomorrow and from their comment it will have something to do with armor saves or some such. I'm not surprised since the metal is referenced in the 7ed codex. Anyone have guesses based on other codexes?
My pipe dream of getting deepstrike since our Titans can teleport is just that, lol. Not at all surprised since it would actually make it possible to get into CC a bit easier with priests.
I can't imagine it will be anything that useful. Maybe as a strategem.
Only good thing revealed today is the Doctrina Imperative for Skitarii. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be shackled to the terrible Metalica trait. Not that it'll affect our competitive list any (it's gonna be Cawl and Friends for a looong time now given what we know at this point) I can see the ability to turn my skitarii into a crack anti aircraft weapon occasionally being pretty useful, especially if you double down on the mortal wound spam trait. "Hey big squad of vanguard, blow the nuts off that Stormraven!"
rvd1ofakind wrote: Anyway, so far Metallica seems like the worst one by far.
Yeah, but people immediately said Salamanders chapter tactics was the worst, and it turns out they were way off. Let's play a few games with massed skitarii and find out, eh?
Especially if they're down to 8ppm or something.
Being able to advance and shoot without penalty gives a pseudo-dunestrider ability.
As said gw try to sell fireworks once more. Bla bla paints . The real issues wont go away with one warlord trait and an efford to spend cp s for vanguard and rangers just to see them par with other armies . When all others got options like all ig orders. These fancy bla bla is pathetic at least. Even if they release a forge for knights the tax for detachment retains our non competiveness high.
Tragic and we all knew the faster the codex came out nothing of value would be seen. Mars with mortals thats it. Onager robots ig for cps. And if anyone believes you gonn have cps to use with vanguad spamm you havent play competitive yet.
I guess I'm the only one here that really likes it. It allows Skitarii to get up the battle field ever so quicker. It's definitely the weakest revealed though.
I m really getting pissed withthis daily crap. Just to be able to move some troops we need dogma and warlord. Wsrlord traits stratagems daily. Where are the detachment options to use all this? Where are the hq for relic use? We gotta spend warlord trait and cp s to be half like others without relics and stratagems?
We cant compete even with relocs and stratagems if other srmies get theirs we ll be bottom immediately.
I believe its time to stop bothering with this crap
There is one dogma that gives a servo arm to tech priest while another to give your melee a second swing. Are they stupid or what in gw. Having a melee hq and buffing your melee units in different dogma why its overpowered to have melee hq woth melee troops. Hahahahha joke
Not only these options should have been default like all other armies they suck vs anything else. One attack melee for real. Hahahahahaha differnt dogma as your melee slow unit. When all other deep strike terminatorsssss in your lines for LESS points and with out warlord stratagems . Pathetic
They gave a buff to vanguard and today to rangers moving and firing. Ahhahahaahh have they played an 8 th game with ad mech . Recently seriously. Gonna pay 50 points vanguard to get their weapon not to shoot with -1 and tech priest with a servo? Take them by foot where??? Ahhahahahah
They announce their stupidity daily in facebook with pride. If that is not called moacking in your face what is.
Yoda79 wrote: I m really getting pissed withthis daily crap. Just to be able to move some troops we need dogma and warlord. Wsrlord traits stratagems daily. Where are the detachment options to use all this? Where are the hq for relic use? We gotta spend warlord trait and cp s to be half like others without relics and stratagems?
We cant compete even with relocs and stratagems if other srmies get theirs we ll be bottom immediately.
I believe its time to stop bothering with this crap
Whatcha talkin about, personally I can't wait for my Adeptus Mechanicus force to be 1400 points of imperial guard plus a couple Robots and Dunecrawlers. So glad I painted all those Rangers Vanguard Sicarians and Dragoons!!!
Seriously, why are Skitarii 10 points again? IG veterans are 6 points and NOBODY uses them. Skitarii seem barely worth 7.
Despite highlighting rangers, it might actually be better for vanguard since it'll help them get into their 18" range. Rangers, with their 30" range, don't really need advance-and-shoot so much.
I'm more interested in that strategem though, it makes Cawl suddenly a lot less mandatory because you can easily boost any unit to hitting on 2+, that magical place where "re-roll misses" and "re-roll 1s" are the same. Also good for dealing with anyone who thinks they can hide behind a -1: use a data-tethered unit to get +2 and hit on 2+ anyway! (as long as you're not using kataphrons with their 4+ baseline).
Of course, it is still a difference between a full bubble and a single unit...
Exactly its a parade of nothing? Ig troops and robot onagers mars that was it thats will remain rest are gw efford to piss us off.doudle hitting priests while they move 6. While you think you can actually take 5 and do the job you remember ohyea i took 10 first ppace cause they never get there. I even played 10 priest to an apocalyphe game never made it in . And used as counter unit.
Now im gonna choose to rangers for 50 points bare bones just to have them running the field so they can be in the sweet spot of rpid fire as said. Is he freaking real?? Would i ever not take a h mortar team and a tempestus any day vs this crap. They cn shoot with +1 or +2 hahahahha
And any other army will embark in transport by pass me wi me with objectives and when ready disembrd in any sweet point and ruin my day i ll be still moving and advancing my rangers sweet super cannon haahhaahahn what a joke and they are making fun in fcebook with their incopetence
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ross-128 wrote: Despite highlighting rangers, it might actually be better for vanguard since it'll help them get into their 18" range. Rangers, with their 30" range, don't really need advance-and-shoot so much.
I'm more interested in that strategem though, it makes Cawl suddenly a lot less mandatory because you can easily boost any unit to hitting on 2+, that magical place where "re-roll misses" and "re-roll 1s" are the same. Also good for dealing with anyone who thinks they can hide behind a -1: use a data-tethered unit to get +2 and hit on 2+ anyway! (as long as you're not using kataphrons with their 4+ baseline).
Of course, it is still a difference between a full bubble and a single unit...
So what you telling us is that you Re going to use a detachment with warlord metalicca to advqnce vanguard walking toward the enemy reqching 18 intch so you can shoot with a +1-2 . Cause it replaces Cawl buffing all hits not miss all hits from a group lets say 2 robots from mars?? Or hatever other army you can think of. You gonna advance the vanguard with the best melee edition ever made you gonna advance 6 by 6 your vanguard. Good luck
I start to believe most plyers are just happy being able to play the forge they wanted and the rest they dont care. And i respect that and i dont want to ruin your fun. So all consider me as talking for my tour armies. Dont ruin your fun i just making some observtions you cn walk your white ranber up the field against my army any day you like. I d be glad to make a shooting practice no hard feelings.
Wait why make the data tether matter doesn't it usually just affect morale? Seems like mixed purposes there unless they have skitarii fearless naturally and the tether now does something else combat related. Like extend aura ranges.
Would explain why all the traits are auras. Anyone else noticing that.? Would suddenly make metallicas rules make more sense as now you run up the field still in "range" of your warlords aura and those minuses for falling back don't count once per turn. Or you can use in on units that have -1 to hit naturally
Haha I seem to be one of the few to like the Metalica trait. I'm not into serious competitive tourney business but rather having a decent force for serious but fluffy games and I love it.
IF they drop the points for the Vanguards I think this one is my choice for now. I'll have them run alongside the Dragoons as well as a Techpriest Dominus in range, so that I can Advance the full unit, use the 1CP Stratagem to give them +2 and reroll of ones with the TPD and basically they auto-hit like Necron Warriors does. Shame the "Wrath of Mars" trait is, well, for Mars only otherwise you could drown the enemy in radiation-induced mortal wounds.
This only works if they drop the price of the Vanguards by two points though, they're still terribly flimsy and overcosted otherwise. I hope the full codex will give us more useful stuff and relics to see how it will be played. As for always, curious to see the next few Forge Worlds.
And I'm really happy for the role switching of the Enginseer, they'll probably give him an aura but even if he doesn't, that's a useful character that allows me to build Bataillon armies without Cawl and for a cheap HQ tax. Maybe even Brigades, who knows.
Yeah, but people immediately said Salamanders chapter tactics was the worst, and it turns out they were way off. Let's play a few games with massed skitarii and find out, eh?
Especially if they're down to 8ppm or something.
Being able to advance and shoot without penalty gives a pseudo-dunestrider ability.
I think this was very, very far from a majority opinion on the Salamanders' trait. Most people saw it as very strong from day 1. In general I think that "the internet" has done pretty well on predicting the meta in 8th, with the only real surprises being about overlooking things instead of evaluating them incorrectly (Malefic Lords, Razorwing Flocks). Lots of people were definitely very quick to figure out that Guilliman, Razorbacks, Stormravens, Celestine, Conscripts, and Brimstone Horrors were really good.
General Skitarii buffs just make Mars more appealing. You're much more likely to buff them to a 3+ save and Cawl's now-9" aura is a much better to-hit bonus than the Metallica dogma. Though really this is just the same problem Space Marines have. GW doesn't seem to have tried to account for relatively overpowered unique characters in designing traits and stratagems. At least Celestine doesn't actually have an <ORDER> keyword, so there's hope for the Sisters codex.
Mars is definitely still the strongest overall because Cawl is just that ridiculous, their doctrine with Cawl badically translates to "pick any two canticles you like" most of the time (as long as you don't roll doubles the spread will basically cover the entire chart), and anyone can use that +1 to hit strategem, including Mars.
Graia is second I'd say because of their mini-WBB roll that they can stack with invulns and sometimes FNP. A 6+ isn't much, but it starts to add up when every model is rolling two or three of them.
Styges might contest that position if the do get an army-wide -1 to enemy shooting though.
Metallica's isn't entirely useless (models with short-range assault weapons will probably appreciate it) it's just overshadowed by the others. Also the Metallica warlord trait is literally the Smurf chapter tactic.
That strategem is going to be generally useful for any army though, especially at just 1CP. Just make sure to drop it on the biggest pile of dice you can for maximum effect, preferably inside some kind of re-roll bubble.
Edit: I don't know why I called canticles "doctrines".
rvd1ofakind wrote: You guys forgetting the Immune to morale part of Graia. That's cool too.
Immune to morale would be tight but seems like instead of "take 100% fewer casualties from morale" they get "take 16% fewer casualties from morale" which is in my humble opinion, Hot Garbage. Maybe even Cold Garbage.
kinetoscopic wrote: Man, this thread has never been saltier than it is during reveal week. What are you guys like at birthday parties...?
Hey. See that P&M link in my sig? Go take a look at the 2000pt of Metalica I have painted and, upon seeing their awful rules, know will always be run as Mars as they currently are anyhow. I have earned this saltiness.
The salt didn't really start until Graia sorta, but mostly Metalica. Mars was obviously good, but we all knew it would be.
Metalica's warlord trait is really useful, just ask ultramarine players. I don't think we can write off these rules yet until we see the points cost on the infantry. Massed skitarii could be okay. Use them as screens around artillery. If your artillery does get engaged, fall back out of combat and shoot. Again, depending on infantry cost this could be okay.
linds14sr20det wrote: Metalica's warlord trait is really useful, just ask ultramarine players. I don't think we can write off these rules yet until we see the points cost on the infantry. Massed skitarii could be okay. Use them as screens around artillery. If your artillery does get engaged, fall back out of combat and shoot. Again, depending on infantry cost this could be okay.
Still not as good as Mars though.
Ultramarines we are not. We don't have the units they do. Context is important. Massed Skitarii will likely not be good even if they go down to 8ppm (or less). The leadership issue is still a handicap for larger squads.
Yoda79 wrote: I m really getting pissed withthis daily crap. Just to be able to move some troops we need dogma and warlord. Wsrlord traits stratagems daily. Where are the detachment options to use all this? Where are the hq for relic use? We gotta spend warlord trait and cp s to be half like others without relics and stratagems?
We cant compete even with relocs and stratagems if other srmies get theirs we ll be bottom immediately.
I believe its time to stop bothering with this crap
Whatcha talkin about, personally I can't wait for my Adeptus Mechanicus force to be 1400 points of imperial guard plus a couple Robots and Dunecrawlers. So glad I painted all those Rangers Vanguard Sicarians and Dragoons!!!
Seriously, why are Skitarii 10 points again? IG veterans are 6 points and NOBODY uses them. Skitarii seem barely worth 7.
FYI, according to random guy on reddit (so basically, I have no source. Chalk it up to "Internal Sources" if you want BOLS-ese) Skitarii Rangers have dropped down to 8ppm, and Vanguard have dropped to 9. He reportedly got a glimpse through the codex. The only other point he had in his favor was he got the Techpriest is HQ thing correct before the GWFB announcement. He also claimed no points change to Kataphrons or Kastelans.
I've been stoked for the reveals on the community page.
I also saw on my facebook feed a conversation with the Warhammer FB team that tech-priest engineseers are an HQ choice now for a cheaper HQ option. It was a picture of a picture, so take that with some , but that would be something that would help us going forward not having to spend bunches of points on dominii.
I have liked all the reveals so far and am looking forward to the others. The Mars ability to have 2 canticles at once is super strong. Add Cawl and it's nutso. That special weapon for Metallica is pretty nifty hitting at s12 -3ap and 3d, though the one attack kind of limits it.
Yoda79 wrote: I m really getting pissed withthis daily crap. Just to be able to move some troops we need dogma and warlord. Wsrlord traits stratagems daily. Where are the detachment options to use all this? Where are the hq for relic use? We gotta spend warlord trait and cp s to be half like others without relics and stratagems?
We cant compete even with relocs and stratagems if other srmies get theirs we ll be bottom immediately.
I believe its time to stop bothering with this crap
Whatcha talkin about, personally I can't wait for my Adeptus Mechanicus force to be 1400 points of imperial guard plus a couple Robots and Dunecrawlers. So glad I painted all those Rangers Vanguard Sicarians and Dragoons!!!
Seriously, why are Skitarii 10 points again? IG veterans are 6 points and NOBODY uses them. Skitarii seem barely worth 7.
FYI, according to random guy on reddit (so basically, I have no source. Chalk it up to "Internal Sources" if you want BOLS-ese) Skitarii Rangers have dropped down to 8ppm, and Vanguard have dropped to 9. He reportedly got a glimpse through the codex. The only other point he had in his favor was he got the Techpriest is HQ thing correct before the GWFB announcement. He also claimed no points change to Kataphrons or Kastelans.
anything on knights ? Are they just a straight port over?
The engiseer mut be revamped. If he has options if he has aura if he has abilities and optional gear maybe. And thats big maybe. And all this talk still to be par with other armies. Not actually benefiting something from the codex.
The no transport 6 move for priest no other hq no other aura. The design of taking up a warlord trait to be viable in melee or using a stratagem like we are ig spamming them is disapointing. Yet again.
I m happy for a lower cost maybe with some relics things will seem a bit less bad designed but still. What will i do when i want to make a fast dragoon outrider detach? What will a 45 /5 vanguard do when i need brigades and battalions? With a limited no use engiseer . Now that you gave vanguard maybe a role you make the non movable arquebus rangers cheaper?? Are you mocking the ad mech community really?
Why not making a datasmith wich is actually a good unit. Why not making priests command unit? And giving us the option to make dogma good melee detachment.
You present a forge world traits while you already know the issues. They just made the priests another static gunline and??? The worthy traits are still a gun line.
And i dont want to get more upset since i only ask basics. Seen meta of the game we all saw what was going on with the game i even said the guilman flier list on release. Its not i want to get all the love. Dont give transports dont give nothing. At least try and make the army playble. You gave us superb tanks ok. We cant have all. Ok i agree but dont go and make us walk 6 intch all infantry. They are same low toughness like the rest of the armies nowdays why cant we pay for a transport. Why cant we mix max our lists with deep strikes if we want or change weapons or decide hq s . Play a melee heavy army with our canticle. And generlly just have some basic options. I gotta decide 6+ fnp shooting melee or melee hq . Why. If i decide to play melee i need an hq aura even if it sucks and some melee units maybe a way to deep strike or transport them. Cant be that hard.
As for bubble warp cheap infantry etc ig is beyond and it should be. Ok at least give me the elite infantry role for imperium below marines in melee but good at shooting or something. Ok you have then give hq options declare us static. And get the cost of making detachments lower than 9-8 and 52 per hq and unit.or buff the max unit count. Or buff if we take 15. Or whatever.
Today you said metalica relent dogma. Why not give them the old scout rule? Tactical you have not adressed the issues we facing. We got enough shooting no need more we all agreed a transport or toughness. We can t walk 6 all game. Why would i care for not getting -1 on rapid weapons or assault . Who cares. How we will get the priest up the field how we gonna deep strike objectives or threats. Same o same o. We gonna drop a 135 dogma tech priest with arc (none uses) and kataphrons again?? That we don t even yet have?? And it was again a formation last edition not seen much when drop pods left our list. Again dogmas unsuable. 500 cost units. 100+ for infiltrators to deep strike and kill soldiers??? For real. Vanguard and rangers rushing in 10 mans to shoot infwntry with wter guns?. Why not give +3+2 Cp s on tech priest and engiseer with out being warlords and let us play spearhead.
Where are you going with this really. If we are to remain stationary army and thats it with no melee like tau then ye everyone wants the -1 to be hit! And we ll be all the same.
I guess I'm ambivalent (a bit) as there's no way GW would make enough changes to take us from a bottom tier army to a top tier army. They just don't do that. Taking that off the table... things will get a bit better. Is it the balanced, well thought-out army I was hoping for? Probably not. Is my griping about it going to change things? Definitely not. Been down that road many times in the past... there's no benefit in it.
Frankly I'll be happy if they don't nerf us the way they did the infiltrators in the first FAQ. That... and now I'm pretty sure that I won't have to go out and buy dozens of skitarii to paint up. Win for me! I've got two units of 25 conscripts that have worked very well as a screening force. I'm good with that.
Gitsplitta wrote: I guess I'm ambivalent (a bit) as there's no way GW would make enough changes to take us from a bottom tier army to a top tier army. They just don't do that. Taking that off the table... things will get a bit better. Is it the balanced, well thought-out army I was hoping for? Probably not. Is my griping about it going to change things? Definitely not. Been down that road many times in the past... there's no benefit in it.
Frankly I'll be happy if they don't nerf us the way they did the infiltrators in the first FAQ. That... and now I'm pretty sure that I won't have to go out and buy dozens of skitarii to paint up. Win for me! I've got two units of 25 conscripts that have worked very well as a screening force. I'm good with that.
I am about to grab some TechThralls for count-as Conscripts and likely will mod up an Overseer (Commissar), just so I can try them out. Should be fun to paint and gives me an excuse to throw in some assassins and Celestine. Things I want to paint, in other words, that are also good in game.
We wont have 10 man infantry or 20 man conscripts with orders. They did a mistake and gave our veratile army the ig buff. And instead of being a cheap army and us the versatile one we switched roles. While they nerfed us as well. Sergeant no fnp etc.
I dont know why maybe cause they wanted to make ig something else and they are not. Making us marins wont happen and since i saw that orders system i knew we where going to be disapointed. The versatile army paper low toughness but with +1+2+3 -1-2-3 doctrinas we had where a choise that made this army work. We cwnt hwve that we already gave orders to ig. Thts about it. There is a role mech becoming a tank army since none has our tanks. Thats that we got the best gun there nd we prolly gonna get knights as well. Thats it.
There is no room for no more. And i got no issue playing my robots witn mortals and onqgers with neutrons. I was just hoping a small issue being fixed to play my other units. Seems like we gonna be ig in front and ad mech behind with sisters or marines as elite options. Deal with it.
Forget all other issues maybe if we get some lesser infwntry with toughnes cheaper or some hq options we ll make some cps.
As i see it they wont change our role they dont want all armies having ll options ok made clear
Where we gonna find extra cps . Ask that and maybe if they give us some extra cps while using engiseer or when we use ig then mybe we gonna keep more ad mech else . We gonna soon change also to imperium chars for cp s.
I am about to grab some TechThralls for count-as Conscripts and likely will mod up an Overseer (Commissar), just so I can try them out. Should be fun to paint and gives me an excuse to throw in some assassins and Celestine. Things I want to paint, in other words, that are also good in game.
Actually, one of my two units of "conscripts" is made up of 30k tech thralls. they work quite nicely. I'd rather have both units be tech thralls but I got the guardsmen for the second unit cheap... which the tech thralls unfortunately aren't.
On the one hand, these changes are good. They are trying to make Skitarii an aggressive mobile gun line again. 7E relic spam was a thing, and it was one of the more fun armies. Really, all we need now is some way to protect our Skitarii as they advance. Before, it was attaching Cawl+Secutarii or Dominus+Conversion Field+Omnissiah's Grace to soak up wounds. Now, maybe some relic?
The new Doctrina is good. 1 CP to cancel out to-hit penalties. And don't forget, it affects Dunecrawlers because they are Skitarii and there is no infantry requirement; it can matter if you're shooting tricky stuff. Sadly, it does not affect Taser Dragoons.
The Metallica warlord trait is bad because of the short range. I mean, they could have done it so that it's units within 6" or any unit with a data-tether. That would be fluffy and cool. But 6" won't cut it if you're running a game with 1000 points worth of Skitarii.
In summary, if anyone wants to run Skitarii, it looks like Metallica troops with an Enginseer (who is a glorified relic holder) and a crapton of Martian Crawlers with Cawl as warlord. And that's something I don't like. They seem to be locking us into certain choices to play an army effectively rather than just giving us those tools be default.
Anyhow, all this makes me really wish for something like a Vanguard or Ranger Prime as HQ--plus a Skitarii command squad with 4 special weapons. This Vanguard or Ranger Prime could then have a Doctrina Imperative ability that gives +1WS/-1BS or +1BS/-1WS that turn for all Skitarii.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if the point drop for Vanguard and Rangers are true, I think Rangers might actually be the better choice for your bulk troops. Why? Because you get one additional body every 72 points spent (an entire extra unit at 360 points), and Rapid Fire weapons get a better bonus than Assault weapons. The former gets to become Assault after you advance and Assault just gets +1 to hit. The superior range and ability to shoot twice at half of that range also remains.
In fact, I can sort of see Plasma Caliver Vanguard and Arc Rifle Rangers being the new standard.
The only way I can realistically see me using calivers or arc rifles again is if a whole unit of 5 can all have one...I'd have to find some way of keeping them alive though' which really is the crux -of the matter.
Wouldn't it be nice if corpuscarii dropped to 10ppm. The past 3 focus articles are pretty insistent that we start using them, they benefit from virtually everything announced so far.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, quick thought: Cawl with the adamantine arm and +1 str canticle wounds a knight on a 2+
Very interesting, it's like Adeptus Mechanicus is being themed as a ranged heavy army that instead of using meat shields to protect against assault, it uses army wide mechanics or stratagems...
So we now have a generic Ad Mech trait that for 1CP lets my Icarus Dunecrawler hit on a 2+, and a dogma which prevents Kastellan Dakka robots being bogged down in combat.
A Metalica enginseer protecting onagers and kastelan to get ooc seems to be quite nice since the biggest problem for our artillery is being in close combat and not get the chance to shoot. Now the problem is that cawls aura is only for Mars units...and that sucks. I see the reason behind Metalica because its adressing the right issue. Still this constant conscript talking is just stupid. They will get nerfed in CP. And you dont need them. Learn to build a screen with 15-20 vanguard and one or 2 dragoons. Its so easy. If you need 50 dudes as a screening unit you are doing it wrong.
i'm starting to form ideas about metallica. Protector Doctrina imperative.... plus the trait. that lets you fall back and shoot at -1 with heavy weapons, 5+ for kastelans and 4+ for balistarii that's not nothing...
Edit: sonuva it only works on skitarii so balistarii and crawlers
Automatically Appended Next Post: hmmmm the balistari already come with data tethers ...... so +2 ....-2 so 3+ retreating from meele.... oh and you can probably get at least 2 enginseers for the cost of your old TPD so you can litter the board with them, in multiple detatchments.... giving you plenty of CP.
Octovol wrote: The only way I can realistically see me using calivers or arc rifles again is if a whole unit of 5 can all have one...I'd have to find some way of keeping them alive though' which really is the crux -of the matter.
Exactly. Late 7E showed that Skitarii were competitive because their guns were amazingly good. You just need to somehow get them in range of the enemy.
So we now have a generic Ad Mech trait that for 1CP lets my Icarus Dunecrawler hit on a 2+, and a dogma which prevents Kastellan Dakka robots being bogged down in combat.
And massed Twin Autocannon Ballistarii, which can now move and shoot reliably thanks to this stratagem.
Kastelans cannot fall back while in Protector mode. In fact, they cannot move at all.
Yoda79 wrote: We wont have 10 man infantry or 20 man conscripts with orders. They did a mistake and gave our veratile army the ig buff. And instead of being a cheap army and us the versatile one we switched roles. While they nerfed us as well. Sergeant no fnp etc.
Where we gonna find extra cps . Ask that and maybe if they give us some extra cps while using engiseer or when we use ig then mybe we gonna keep more ad mech else . We gonna soon change also to imperium chars for cp s.
I have a quite playable 2000 point list, all Ad Mech, that generates 15 command points using the new Enginseer HQ and reduced price Rangers.
Yoda79 wrote: We wont have 10 man infantry or 20 man conscripts with orders. They did a mistake and gave our veratile army the ig buff. And instead of being a cheap army and us the versatile one we switched roles. While they nerfed us as well. Sergeant no fnp etc.
Where we gonna find extra cps . Ask that and maybe if they give us some extra cps while using engiseer or when we use ig then mybe we gonna keep more ad mech else . We gonna soon change also to imperium chars for cp s.
I have a quite playable 2000 point list, all Ad Mech, that generates 15 command points using the new Enginseer HQ and reduced price Rangers.
Can you post that list?
I am actually skeptical of Enginseer spam. I mean, I get that people are excited about having a cheap HQ, but remember that just like how Cawl is superior to TPD at a certain point value, TPD is superior to Enginseers at a certain value as well. Quite frankly, I don't think they are worth the 52 points or the Skitarii worth the CPs, so I would still use them sparingly. (Focus on fundamentals: Martian army with Cawl and a crapton of artillery.)
I am actually skeptical of Enginseer spam. I mean, I get that people are excited about having a cheap HQ, but remember that just like how Cawl is superior to TPD at a certain point value, TPD is superior to Enginseers at a certain value as well. Quite frankly, I don't think they are worth the 52 points or the Skitarii worth the CPs, so I would still use them sparingly. (Focus on fundamentals: Martian army with Cawl and a crapton of artillery.)
BRIGADE DETACHMENT +9 COMMAND POINTS
HQ TECH-PRIEST DOMINUS W/ ERADICATION RAY & MACRO-STUBBER 141
TECH-PRIEST ENGINSEER W/ POWER AXE & LASPISTOL 52
TECH-PRIEST ENGINSEER W/ POWER AXE & LASPISTOL 52
Gives me 7 Vanguard and Ranger units to act as bubble wrap/objective sitters letting me keep the two Arqubus units back near the TPD for re-rolls. Enginseers, Datasmiths and TPD allow for plenty of healing on the Omagers, Robots and Dragoons, depending on deploymenrt. Dragoons can act act screeners for first turn deep strike protection then move to objectives or tie up units as needed. Fulgarites are kept in reserve as a counter-charge measure for anything that does make it into my deployment zone turns 1-3. Since 9 Fulgarites will kill most units they charge I then have a unit of screeners with a 3++ save. Infiltrators come in turn by three to take objectives if needed, hide in opponents back field for linebreaker or harass backfield vehicles. Not a tournament list but very playable in regular games and as said generates 15 command points so lots of re-rolls and stratagems as needed.
I got Admech to be a bit more elite shooting for my IG, only to find out my Metallica are just IG in all but name only since their traits are just orders I have access to with IG anyways
One small thing I saw that I kind of liked, the Metallica Warlord trait just says "Metallica" unit, not infantry. So essentially if you have your warlord babysitting some onagers in the back, and they get assaulted for whatever reason, you can fall back with them and still fire, which is kind of nice. Not game winning, and with my kind of army the odds of them getting charged are laughably small if I were to run them with my guard, but a handy trick for people that are using Onagers as ranged backup. Makes them infinitely more useful than Leman Russes for me, since the usual issue I run into is my tanks being shut down by assault. Not sure I like having to make a Dominus my warlord but I guess he's more durable than a Company Commander or something.
I don't really have much use for my infantry with Admech but I guess it'll help them somewhat keep up with my guardsmen who will be using "forwards for the Emperor!" Basically just sprinkle them in among the line infantry or perhaps use them as a backfield firefighting unit since I fight a stupid amount of deepstrikers and outflankers in my meta.
Kind of underwhelmed to be honest, and the worst part is they still probably wont release Metallica decals, meaning I'll have to hunt down a sheet on ebay or make my own somehow if I want to commit to running them.
So far with what is revealed if anyone thinks you can make a competitive list without a Mars detachment - they're a silly person. Hopefully that changes
Suzuteo wrote: I guess it's playable... but good luck taking down a Knight (or three...), Razorback spam, or pretty much any non-horde army...
Of course it's playable. Is it a perfect list against all armies, no nothing is. A Knight wouldn't bother me, three would be hard, but unless you design a list to deal with three Knights that's hard for anyone, and that list would be weak against hoard armies. Razorback span I think I could do ok on, Astra Militarum Gun Line would be tough.
Of course it's playable. Is it a perfect list against all armies, no nothing is. A Knight wouldn't bother me, three would be hard, but unless you design a list to deal with three Knights that's hard for anyone, and that list would be weak against hoard armies. Razorback span I think I could do ok on, Astra Militarum Gun Line would be tough.
How would you handle Razorback spam? Honest question. If I were them, I would focus down your Neutron Crawler, then spend the rest of the game kiting you to death. That's always been THE problem for our infantry-based armies.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So far with what is revealed if anyone thinks you can make a competitive list without a Mars detachment - they're a silly person. Hopefully that changes
Unless the relics give us bubble shields or character aggro, I have no idea how any Metallica army will work. Graia might be viable for a detachment of screening Skitarii (probably a Battalion like in Solis Luna Astrum's list, though I would prefer Plasma Caliver Vanguard with a single TPD), but only because they'd be annoying to kill and can shoot at point blank range.
So I don't think that the extra battalion or the Arquibi are getting you anything in that Brigade list. 12CP is enough, 15 is excessive and not worth the taxes or dakka sacrifices. You will want that 4stack of bots for the mortal wound strategem. Here is what I am thinking. EDIT: another thing, ONLY GO MARS. Remember that Cawl can -1/+1 any rolls on canticle chart ... so rolling twice with him will never ever result in an overlapping roll. You can always just +1/-1 at least one of the rolls.
I'm not making lists anymore after hearing the 1CP deepstrike rumor. If that's true, our lists go to the trash and here come deepstriking priests with their 80 hits + melee damage
indeed. or keeping them alive so they could do anything. Dropping them in would solve all their problems and well...I would order a couple of boxes Would be great if dropping them wasnt bound to specific Forge Worlds though.
Suzuteo wrote: I'm surprised it would be Electro-Priests though. Why not Kataphrons? Holy Requisitioner used to be the fun Deepstrike option.
Sort of. I mean Breacher were not good in 7th as well. Was fun though and I would love to play my Kataphrons again. Got 12 of them and it looks like they will be gathering dust for the forseeable future.
Rumour I saw said the deep strike strat was a direct copy of the raven guard one, which would end up being <forge world> Infantry can be deployed via deepstrike before the first movement phase.
interviglium wrote: Rumour I saw said the deep strike strat was a direct copy of the raven guard one, which would end up being <forge world> Infantry can be deployed via deepstrike before the first movement phase.
interviglium wrote: Rumour I saw said the deep strike strat was a direct copy of the raven guard one, which would end up being <forge world> Infantry can be deployed via deepstrike before the first movement phase.
Reddit?
Yep, from the guy with the longest day at work ever.
'They are the most secretive apparently, given they have the Raven guard chapter tactic and strategem verbatim.' - regarding lucius
interviglium wrote: Rumour I saw said the deep strike strat was a direct copy of the raven guard one, which would end up being <forge world> Infantry can be deployed via deepstrike before the first movement phase.
Reddit?
Yep, from the guy with the longest day at work ever.
'They are the most secretive apparently, given they have the Raven guard chapter tactic and strategem verbatim.' - regarding lucius
I mean, people say that but they're not really good mathamer wise. Bloodletters are about twice as good damage wise.
Fulgurites are great vs multiple wound dudes with lowish armour. That usually means stuff with 2-4 hp. And most of that stuff is bad and out of the meta.
Corpuscarii are much better. The only knock they have is no 3++ after a kill
Fulgurites only have 10 attacks for 5 dudes. And they miss a third of them. Their str isn't amazing so they can't really take on vehicles and monster too well. And the Mortal wounds only happen once for every 5 dudes per fight phase. Which isn't great...
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, people say that but they're not really good mathamer wise. Bloodletters are about twice as good damage wise.
Fulgurites are great vs multiple wound dudes with lowish armour. That usually means stuff with 2-4 hp. And most of that stuff is bad and out of the meta.
Corpuscarii are much better. The only knock they have is no 3++ after a kill
Fulgurites only have 10 attacks for 5 dudes. And they miss a third of them. Their str isn't amazing so they can't really take on vehicles and monster too well. And the Mortal wounds only happen once for every 5 dudes per fight phase. Which isn't great...
I think for once we are in. Complete agreement here. That 3++ is nice but you have to wipe out a unit which means you have to assault and with 1w and tshirt saves..... really wish they'd never been made either of them and gw would have given us a secutor squad instead but that ship has sailed
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, people say that but they're not really good mathamer wise. Bloodletters are about twice as good damage wise.
Fulgurites are great vs multiple wound dudes with lowish armour. That usually means stuff with 2-4 hp. And most of that stuff is bad and out of the meta.
Corpuscarii are much better. The only knock they have is no 3++ after a kill
Fulgurites only have 10 attacks for 5 dudes. And they miss a third of them. Their str isn't amazing so they can't really take on vehicles and monster too well. And the Mortal wounds only happen once for every 5 dudes per fight phase. Which isn't great...
Corpuscarii don't want to charge - they want to shoot. So they really don't get as much out of their Voltagheist Field.
Also, their S5 AP 0 1D weapons kinda suck. Sure, 10 men is 30 shots with the exploding 6's, but that is only good vs lightly armored infantry. And to get the most from their shooting, they need to be near Cawl or a TDP, while the Fulgurites can venture away from the gunline, if needed.
Don't forget that while only 10 attacks, they bump to d3 mortal wounds each on a 6+ and mortal wounds spill over. The amount of mortal wounds the unit can crank out is what makes it an all-star.
I can't imagine taking Corpuscarii, honestly. They just don't seem good on paper (thought their models are pretty amazing). Unless, of course, they get a major price cut. Then sure! Toss them in as a screen unit for deep strikers maybe. But even then, not sure it is worth it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, people say that but they're not really good mathamer wise. Bloodletters are about twice as good damage wise.
Fulgurites are great vs multiple wound dudes with lowish armour. That usually means stuff with 2-4 hp. And most of that stuff is bad and out of the meta.
Corpuscarii are much better. The only knock they have is no 3++ after a kill
Fulgurites only have 10 attacks for 5 dudes. And they miss a third of them. Their str isn't amazing so they can't really take on vehicles and monster too well. And the Mortal wounds only happen once for every 5 dudes per fight phase. Which isn't great...
I think for once we are in. Complete agreement here. That 3++ is nice but you have to wipe out a unit which means you have to assault and with 1w and tshirt saves..... really wish they'd never been made either of them and gw would have given us a secutor squad instead but that ship has sailed
Fulgurites have done really well for me. T-Shirt save doesn't matter when they get to their 3++ after wiping a unit. On the charge, they are pretty deadly. Not against things like big hordes, but against mid-sized units for sure. Their AP and mortal wounds make them rough against things like MEQ and TEQ, but not great for GEQ hordes.
Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.
Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.
Mathhammer-wise, Fulgurites stay twice longer on the field of battle if they get their 3++ (against non-mortal wounds indeed).
That's not something you can rule out that easily
Can't wait to try them out in a 20-man squad with a Greyfax for the Ld and absence of Moral checks !
(and anti-smite ofc)
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.
Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.
dont forget that marsmortal wound strategem iirc the shooty priests explode hits on a 6 and he strat goes on wound rolls so the gauntlets get you to more wound rolls and the wound rolls get you mortal wounds and thanks to split fire you can target multiple units for full effect.
IF. The deep strike rule is true and you use it at the start of the game not in the shooting phase you can deep strike in a max unit of priests and basically fry enemy's entire army then charge for more mortal wounds
Not the biggest expert on priests so someone correct me if wrong. Also this assumes the deep strike is NOT lucious exclusive
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, people say that but they're not really good mathamer wise. Bloodletters are about twice as good damage wise.
Fulgurites are great vs multiple wound dudes with lowish armour. That usually means stuff with 2-4 hp. And most of that stuff is bad and out of the meta.
Corpuscarii are much better. The only knock they have is no 3++ after a kill
Fulgurites only have 10 attacks for 5 dudes. And they miss a third of them. Their str isn't amazing so they can't really take on vehicles and monster too well. And the Mortal wounds only happen once for every 5 dudes per fight phase. Which isn't great...
I dunno, if melee was what you're missing, Fulgurites seem better to me. Same number of base attacks in melee as corps, same str but with -2 ap and d3 dmg or d3 mortals on a 6 to wound? They both wound equally averagely, whereas the corps will end up with slightly more attacks but with no ap and only a single wound if your opponent fails their save. Granted corps get to fire back on overwatch and can fire normally (and advance with no penalty if you're metalica) I dunno i'm inclined to keep a squad of fulgs as a counter charge because in most of my game invariably someone tries to take out my onagers and robots in melee with superior mobility. And i'd probably replace vanguard with corps if i didn't have to take troops for cps.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.
Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.
I mean i haven't done the math, but surely a single attack on a 6 to guarantee 1-3 wounds is better than 2-3 attacks that could be easily saved? Prove me wrong, because invariably i'll be buying some form of priest soon and i'm open to being schooled.
gendoikari87 wrote: Alternatively you could do this with infiltrators and flechette blasters
Different roles. Infiltrators do not straddle your gunline and counter-assault. They are meant to come in to take distant objectives or harass the opponent's backfield.
Fulgurites park near the gunline and charge in when something gets close.
Corpuscarii are junk because they have a 0 AP gun and a measly 12" range. We have better shooting on more durable platforms elsewhere (lol Robots) - they are just not that useful.
Fulgurites occupy a specific role that not much else in our army does, competing only really with Ruststalkers as our assault element, which I think the Fulgurites are just better (albeit less cool looking).
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.
Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.
I mean i haven't done the math, but surely a single attack on a 6 to guarantee 1-3 wounds is better than 2-3 attacks that could be easily saved? Prove me wrong, because invariably i'll be buying some form of priest soon and i'm open to being schooled.
Corps can shoot and then charge. They can pick what they shoot much better than fulgs pick what they charge. Corps explode on HIT and fire more bullets. Fulgs explode on WOUND and the explosion isn't as impactful AND they have less attacks than Corps have bullets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll post the math when I'm done. I may have made some mistakes ofc.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.
Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.
I mean i haven't done the math, but surely a single attack on a 6 to guarantee 1-3 wounds is better than 2-3 attacks that could be easily saved? Prove me wrong, because invariably i'll be buying some form of priest soon and i'm open to being schooled.
Corps can shoot and then charge. They can pick what they shoot much better than fulgs pick what they charge. Corps explode on HIT and fire more bullets. Fulgs explode on WOUND and the explosion isn't as impactful AND they have less attacks than Corps have bullets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll post the math when I'm done. I may have made some mistakes ofc.
Corps can shoot and charge and then what? Get smashed in CC where they are pretty mediocre? And hits on 0 AP weapons aren't that scary. While mortal wounds (that carry over) are pretty solid. The AP -2 is a big deal for getting damage though, as well, and the Fulgurites do more damage per attack. So while Corupscarii might shine against a mob of Boyz, the Fulgurites can pummel anything - including tough walkers, vehicles, etc.
I thought we were specifically talking about making use of strats here so corps aren't ap 0 all the time they deal mortal wounds on both shooting and charge
I've only played a few games but my fulgrite priests were key in a game. I was able to get a charge off with them, unit of 10, and wiped a 5 man tac squad in the first round of CC and they went on to tie up a total of three squads, most of which were killed by the priests, before they finally were taken out. That 3++ is massive for tarpitting. It helped that I managed 3 mortal wounds on the charge, though the field never did a thing.
They can really mess with your opponent if we can DS them into the backfield, or a flank, and can manage to pickoff a unit. It won't work against all armies but I still think it's viable.
gendoikari87 wrote: I thought we were specifically talking about making use of strats here so corps aren't ap 0 all the time they deal mortal wounds on both shooting and charge
I don't factor in strategems, because there is no telling if we will always get to use them. It is too much of a variable unless it is a direct build-around strategy. And don't forget we have a 3CP "fight again" Strategem for the Priests, so that can help Fulgurites get those critical extra swings in against larger units or ones they can't wipe off the first charge and fight round. I doubt it will see much use, given the cost, but it is a tool we now have.
Mathhamer may say otherwise but even my 5 man squad of fulgurites has always gotten its 3+ in the few games I have played.
Albeit vs Primaris and Plague Marines. They have killed the jetpack primaris guys both games while losing like 2 of their 5 dudes. And then the 3 of them went on to wipe out a 4 man melee terminator squad thanks to some crazy mortal wound rolls
Their version of disgusting resilience certainly helps.
I am waiting for Codex before ordering more models but my inclination right now is I want a much larger unit of them. But I agree they need to be behind your bubble wrap as counter charge or they just get face melted
gendoikari87 wrote: I thought we were specifically talking about making use of strats here so corps aren't ap 0 all the time they deal mortal wounds on both shooting and charge
I don't factor in strategems, because there is no telling if we will always get to use them. It is too much of a variable unless it is a direct build-around strategy. And don't forget we have a 3CP "fight again" Strategem for the Priests, so that can help Fulgurites get those critical extra swings in against larger units or ones they can't wipe off the first charge and fight round. I doubt it will see much use, given the cost, but it is a tool we now have.
forgot about that one... they're really pushing those damn priests....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaynen wrote: Mathhamer may say otherwise but even my 5 man squad of fulgurites has always gotten its 3+ in the few games I have played.
Albeit vs Primaris and Plague Marines. They have killed the jetpack primaris guys both games while losing like 2 of their 5 dudes. And then the 3 of them went on to wipe out a 4 man melee terminator squad thanks to some crazy mortal wound rolls
Their version of disgusting resilience certainly helps.
I am waiting for Codex before ordering more models but my inclination right now is I want a much larger unit of them. But I agree they need to be behind your bubble wrap as counter charge or they just get face melted
If you could get some sort of reroll wounds option on the priests with the mortal wound stuff/fight again that would be amazing
Edit: Gend, they don't charge something full strength until they have their 3+ save, and most things they have charged have been so injured/hurt prior to the opponent getting to fight they have not taken much if any damage. This is why I am debating 10 or even a 15 man squad of them rather than MSU
Jaynen wrote: If you could get some sort of reroll wounds option on the priests with the mortal wound stuff/fight again that would be amazing
Edit: Gend, they don't charge something full strength until they have their 3+ save, and most things they have charged have been so injured/hurt prior to the opponent getting to fight they have not taken much if any damage. This is why I am debating 10 or even a 15 man squad of them rather than MSU
am I missing something 1w5++ should die to shooting from just about anything and take significant loses on some overwatch matchups?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Even with 5+ fnp that's flimsy in units of 5-10 unless you have the full max squad
Jaynen wrote: If you could get some sort of reroll wounds option on the priests with the mortal wound stuff/fight again that would be amazing
Edit: Gend, they don't charge something full strength until they have their 3+ save, and most things they have charged have been so injured/hurt prior to the opponent getting to fight they have not taken much if any damage. This is why I am debating 10 or even a 15 man squad of them rather than MSU
am I missing something 1w5++ should die to shooting from just about anything and take significant loses on some overwatch matchups?
The 5+ FNP is a lifesaver. Especially against stuff that is 0 AP, so we get our 5+ armor save (6+ with Cover) and then the FNP. It is really useful against Overwatch, as there is little that comes your way already. But yea, they definitely should park behind some LoS-blocking terrain if you can and only come out when they need to fight!
My primary opponent is a GK player, and against him fulgurites are absolute stars. If the enemy will come to you, they are really good.
Hide them out of line of sight to avoid them being stormboltered off the table first turn. Have a datasmith soak overwatch on something that I'm certain they'll kill, and then the melee game is back on a more even footing for a while.
5++ and 5+fnp isn't bad it's between a 4+ and 3+ problem is small units evaporating quick. I can see them being good counter assault units with clever terrai. Use but not something you'd want to be moving to get into cc range with
interviglium wrote: My primary opponent is a GK player, and against him fulgurites are absolute stars. If the enemy will come to you, they are really good.
Hide them out of line of sight to avoid them being stormboltered off the table first turn. Have a datasmith soak overwatch on something that I'm certain they'll kill, and then the melee game is back on a more even footing for a while.
The Datasmith is surprisingly tough with that 2+ save! I have used him to tank a few times and loved it. That Gamma Pistol and Fist are nasty!
Having him soak Overwatch from AP 0 or AP -1 is totally doable. He should shrug off most of it. I would be hesitant to throw him into AP -2 or better, as if he dies, they can Overwatch my Fulgurites anyhow so I might as well have just thrown them in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaynen wrote: I keep them in a very conservative spot and then keep them behind bubble wrap and they usually engage deep strikers who come near the big guns etc.
I'd get my vanguard charged, then fall back with the remaining vanguard, shoot at the enemies then charge them with priests mop up and get the 3+ save
You trying to compare whatever comes to your heads.
Again we talking competitve or we talking about the perfect 2 k lists our fellow ad mech player posted?. Cause if you believe competitve has anything to do with me playing the army your are clueless.
Competitive refers atm since we are still have not seen many codex or even all of our vs other tested cost effective units.
Ig provides cp s with cheap bodies versatile with orders to do whatever you want. With a 30 poin cost commander ordering 2* units an elite commisar for 30 to make them durable and ofc all options in deep strike plasma. Its the whole picure you are missing.
The 3+ save of 5 man vanguard wont make them 10 wound ig infantry. 130 poimts infiltrators will never ever gonna be plasma strike. And still plasma with out stratagems rlics orders better cheaper. You talk about 7th when we had elite stqts on survivng with +1 wound + better plasma. + doctrinas to decide melee or shooting. What will ever compare to a 4 man unit of robots with cawl and 6+ on wound mortals? You wont have the same ever again?
40 points rangers. The deal taking cheap soldiers is not to bubble wrap only. Lets say we are pros and with shroud we survive. Like a 10 man ig. Do you have versatile options? Any ig troops can decide with orders what to do as we did with doctrins in 7th. Not decide a dogma and good luck with it.
Secomd most important. Command points. You trying to be smart here? You play competitive and you present a list thwt has nothing than overcosted vqnguard. Overcosted hq. Overcosted fast units over costed deep strike units. You put all our army models inside battlion and you achived what ?? We are blind we cnt do it? Is this competitive? For real
Wanna come ply vs my list + 100 models point wise and better guns bettter options since you will have one deep strike pistol unit while i ll shoot 17 plasma same points. And i wont be missing no dakka either. Might have a bit worse bs+ but you ll drown in dice.
Take a list full of vngiard rangers that dont have the number. Wanna talk how many armies got lots of dice for simple soldiers? Wanna tell us what will your list do vs any army if you loose first turn? Tyranids? Blood angels? Eldar? Tau? Not even worth mentioning mortar spamm and spamming lists.
Low survive low wounds low body counts low cp s and if you take that lists you getting even worse with out enough of our cost effective units. And most important no way to make detachment with differnt dogma without paying taxxxxxxx.
Want to get a 10 man vanguard and your dragoons in a gaia dogma?? How priest elite dragoons fast vanguard soldiers???
And since i dont want to be in the deconstructive side i ll say what i believe to work so far.
Ad mech has turned mechanicum. Onagers Robots dragoons vehicles lots of them. Mars reroll all hits will be better than adding +1 +2 . All mars will reroll all hits and since you will need your icarus to reroll also 3sssss mars will do it for free.
Now with a gaia warlord you can gain a lot. Most likely the unit you need to have tanking bubblewraping. Unf its still a mess to be able to benefit anything from this stupid design you gotta pay again tax. Like we are top tier and they try to not make us op.
Thats said propably so far. Might look like this.
Spearhead Mars
Cawl
1*4 Robots. Must be one unit now. If not more. Wrath of wars on them
3 neutron. Or maybe 1 icarus i dont like icarus atm in here no need. Might be wise to get it one 4th inside other needs.
Maybe brigade maybe somehing simple like outrider.
Gaia tpd warlord. Maybe tax engiseer near dragoons on deploy?
With 10 vanguard 3 plasma bubble front
10 rangers plasma or ac if fixed same reason
5 rangers arq.
Elite
datasmith
5* fulg priests
Fast
Dragoon
Dragoon maybe with jezz both. If gun fixed.depends lance more points no use so far.
And thats it. So far.
The option for deep strike plasma seems good but wont seem viable for a 500 dedstroyers group with tpd.
As i see it when making a lists as odd it might sound
Gaia takes range priests for extra survive and mars melee for double canticle. As i see it so far. The 3+ seems viable enough wnd the only unit trully benefiting the double canticle shoud be melee priests. So i correct the lists and take In mars melee priests and f you want for some bizzare reason more elites range priests on gaia. To survive and keep shooting in melee range.
When we see relics most likely will have to split also vnguard and rangers if we really gonna benefit from those dogmas. Not sure yet wanna see more but seems like they ll need to be split if you decide to have advqncing and or stationary units.
My feelings too, about the looks. I discovered when I built mine that they look loads better if you leave the collar off of them.
Don't worry, even if you build them with the collar, it will break off anyhow.
One of the most delicate freaking models, despite being so chunky! I regret not pinning mine, but I am sure I will get chances as they break apart.
You mentioned using Tech Thralls as a stand in for conscripts and converting a Commissar. I too had that idea I have 10 Tech Thralls now and 20 more on the way. I will be converting a basic Vanguard model as my Platoon Commander. Here's the Enginseer I've started converting into a Commissar.
Mathhammer excludes context, so it isn't really helpful.
Mathammer is a tool when you evaluate a unit. It is not "this unit is better than the other one", but it is a big contributor to that
It doesn't help though, because it doesn't factor in context. Such as if it benefits from other parts of the army or the range of a unit vs other options, etc. I find mathhammer misleading and often not useful. Just my $.02.
Mathhammer excludes context, so it isn't really helpful.
Mathammer is a tool when you evaluate a unit. It is not "this unit is better than the other one", but it is a big contributor to that
It doesn't help though, because it doesn't factor in context. Such as if it benefits from other parts of the army or the range of a unit vs other options, etc. I find mathhammer misleading and often not useful. Just my $.02.
Do I really have to write instructions on how to use mathammer... You take 2 similar units. 1 that is doing really well and is getting spammed in tournaments and a unit you want to compare. You put them in there and compare them. If your unit is way behind on numbers - it is probably pretty bad.
You don't compare Onagers to Fulgurites, lol. You compare Onagers to anti-vehicle units and Fulgurites to other melee units like Bloodletters
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, where the fudge is our preview. This is the one I'm waiting for the most as it will either confirm or debunk the romors... unless they exclude the specific Lucius stratagem for some reason
Mathhammer excludes context, so it isn't really helpful.
Mathammer is a tool when you evaluate a unit. It is not "this unit is better than the other one", but it is a big contributor to that
It doesn't help though, because it doesn't factor in context. Such as if it benefits from other parts of the army or the range of a unit vs other options, etc. I find mathhammer misleading and often not useful. Just my $.02.
Do I really have to write instructions on how to use mathammer... You take 2 similar units. 1 that is doing really well and is getting spammed in tournaments and a unit you want to compare. You put them in there and compare them. If your unit is way behind on numbers - it is probably pretty bad.
You don't compare Onagers to Fulgurites, lol. You compare Onagers to anti-vehicle units and Fulgurites to other melee units like Bloodletters
Do I need to provide instructions on being polite?
Comparisons like that do not serve a realistic purpose, because they ignore context. Comparing any unit in a vacuum has zero merit. So mathhammer is generally a waste of time for comparing units. The only useful mathhammer is basic rolling statistics for a unit. Otherwise, you are ignoring the big picture, which counts a lot more. This is why Fulgurites are a decent inclusion, despite not being particularly great overall - because they complete the niche for our faction on the whole.
Also, AGAIN. This is "pure damage". If you know that one unit does more "pure damage" to a target than another unit, this unit is better for damaging said target. Simple.
You don't look at the numbers and say Blank > Blank. You look at them and they help you think.
"Damn those fulgurites are great"
*looks at the mathammer*
"Wait, they are actually awful vs hordes :/"
"Holy crap, Corps do HOW much damage?! Hm... I might have to look at those again"
I actually think the trait is good. Ap-1 is around the main weapons you'd point at Skitarii and you'd have to now point less efficient weapons at them. I approve.
gendoikari87 wrote: Yeah the strategem is nice but we already had infiltrators for that sort of thing
Too bad they were garbage. Priests are not. They needed 1 thing - transportation. Presto change-o they have it. This is BIG
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously, if you think the Deep Strike stratagem isn't completelly game changing, I don't know what to tell you. We had these main problems:
1) low mobility
2) very predictable lists
Suddenly, both of these are fixed.
ONE CP. just ONE CP and you melt any non character unit you want. Literally. You point and click and the unit disappears.
The only weapon I can think of it will have much effect on is heavy bolters. Maybe a smattering of others but mars gives you a straight up +1 against ranged and in cc there's only a handful of -1 weapons
gendoikari87 wrote: Yeah the strategem is nice but we already had infiltrators for that sort of thing
Too bad they were garbage. Priests are not. They needed 1 thing - transportation. Presto change-o they have it. This is BIG
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously, if you think the Deep Strike stratagem isn't completelly game changing, I don't know what to tell you. We had these main problems:
1) low mobility
2) very predictable lists
Suddenly, both of these are fixed.
ONE CP. just ONE CP and you melt any non character unit you want. Literally. You point and click and the unit disappears.
eh requires ugly ass priests so pass unless a cool conversion comes along
Also, AGAIN. This is "pure damage". If you know that one unit does more "pure damage" to a target than another unit, this unit is better for damaging said target. Simple.
You don't look at the numbers and say Blank > Blank. You look at them and they help you think.
"Damn those fulgurites are great"
*looks at the mathammer*
"Wait, they are actually awful vs hordes :/"
"Holy crap, Corps do HOW much damage?! Hm... I might have to look at those again"
And last time. These numbers are meaningless. Context matters in a game with dozen of variables.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Concerning Lucius:
If we can do Detachments for each FW, we will definitely want to bring Lucius for this strategem!
Not sure just what would be ideal, but 20 Corpuscarii might be pretty rough, as it negates their range drawback.
Also Destroyers don't explode plasma for 2CP. So that's a thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hi, I'll just set up half my units in Deep Strike, nah that's not gamechanging at all (not saying this is a good idea... yet)
inb4 "you can only use it once lol". No Deployment isn't a phase.
EDIT: scrach that, there are no restrictions apart from the Reserves restriction. Feel free to place half your army in reserves and plonk it down in your opponent's face turn one
rvd1ofakind wrote: Also Destroyers don't explode plasma for 2CP. So that's a thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hi, I'll just set up half my units in Deep Strike, nah that's not gamechanging at all (not saying this is a good idea... yet)
Sorry bud!
, but that would be something that would help us going forward not having to spend bunches of points on dominii.
