Ahtman wrote: "Burnham is socially awkward and all logic because of her Vulkan upbringing"
Two...seconds...later...
"Oh Burnham you made a rash decision based on emotion but it was the perfect thing to do and everyone loves you and you're the best thing in Starfleet!"
Repeat that every episode and you just described STD.
Yeah and this would be an incredibly compelling character honestly in a more competently written show. The conflict between someone trying to live up to an ideal image of themselves and having to deal with not always living up to it or hard choices that force them to question if that ideal is even realistic? That's freaking Star Trek right there!
But DIS isn't competently written, and what should make Burnham a good character is instead the thing that makes her an awful character.
Can I give a shout out to Pick TV and the Horror Channel for showing Star Trek on TV every evening?
They had the episode with the borg Hugh on the other day. Great episode, particularily loved the bit where Jordi says to Guinan "Well maybe you should go and listen, that is what you're good at isn't it?"
I think the best Trek episodes follow that formula; 1. Set up a moral quandry. 2. Senior officers debate the ethics/ sociology/ philosophy relevant to the situation. 3. Something complicates things even further. 4. Arrive at consensus. 5. Solve the problem imperfectly but still allowing hope for future.
I mostly enjoyed that episode, but I note that it took an episode that was 95% without Burnham in it for me to finally start learning, after 3 seasons, what most of the other characters names are...
I loved Tilly and Saru spending time together. And Georgieu's big scene was great. - I kinda lowkey love that she basically DOES have the explorer 'spirit' to her that the Federation has, but it's on this sort of completely amoral basis. I sorta want to see her hanging out with Sara Lance from Legends of Tomorrow.
In saying all this good stuff, I still feel like the episode needed to pass through a half dozen more script revisions before it ends up being properly good.
I've been rewatching Battlestar Galactica recently (which, for the Brits, is currently available on Iplayer) and honestly after seeing it like 10 years ago, I'm still going "oh my Bob, this is SO frikking well written, the dialogue, drama, everything."
So, bridge lady with the tech implant on her head (unlike you I still haven’t learned names), wagers on her being infected with that evil AI from the alternate future? They made a Blatantly unsubtle point of showing her acting off.
AduroT wrote: So, bridge lady with the tech implant on her head (unlike you I still haven’t learned names), wagers on her being infected with that evil AI from the alternate future? They made a Blatantly unsubtle point of showing her acting off.
But it could also be a device to better show the impact of the time travel? I mean, whatever works she’s had done, a fair amount is external. Bang that hard enough, and where bone would break? The metal will bend. Which strikes me as worse?
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Compel wrote: I mostly enjoyed that episode, but I note that it took an episode that was 95% without Burnham in it for me to finally start learning, after 3 seasons, what most of the other characters names are...
I loved Tilly and Saru spending time together. And Georgieu's big scene was great. - I kinda lowkey love that she basically DOES have the explorer 'spirit' to her that the Federation has, but it's on this sort of completely amoral basis. I sorta want to see her hanging out with Sara Lance from Legends of Tomorrow.
In saying all this good stuff, I still feel like the episode needed to pass through a half dozen more script revisions before it ends up being properly good.
I've been rewatching Battlestar Galactica recently (which, for the Brits, is currently available on Iplayer) and honestly after seeing it like 10 years ago, I'm still going "oh my Bob, this is SO frikking well written, the dialogue, drama, everything."
Just want to focus in on your Georgiou comment, because it resonated with me. And it’s a bloody good point.
For most of my encounters with the Mirror Universe, they’ve been moustache twirling campy villains. But Georgiou is starting to serve as a much finer line between the realties. As you said, she’s not immoral, just amoral. She wants to the get the job done, and isn’t at all fussy about the exact means.
My opinion that it's by far the best thing to come out of Star Trek in years, if not almost a couple decades, remains firm
Haven't caught the new Discovery however, I'll have to get to that at some point.
I have not caught the two recents, but i watched lower decks and i love it.
It did kinda start out as just making jokes about trek and characters within trek. It then started making jokes and poking fun at tropes of trek. I loved how the trial episode was about how the bridge crew are not these perfect little do no wrongs, but have flaws and make mistakes. The best was the last, about the one and done planets of the week and how they where never checked up upon.
I think its going to end up like The Orville. Starting off making a buncha jokes, but stopping a bit later and becoming a Sci-Fi show with humorous elements.
But it could also be a device to better show the impact of the time travel? I mean, whatever works she’s had done, a fair amount is external. Bang that hard enough, and where bone would break? The metal will bend. Which strikes me as worse?
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Compel wrote: I mostly enjoyed that episode, but I note that it took an episode that was 95% without Burnham in it for me to finally start learning, after 3 seasons, what most of the other characters names are...
I loved Tilly and Saru spending time together. And Georgieu's big scene was great. - I kinda lowkey love that she basically DOES have the explorer 'spirit' to her that the Federation has, but it's on this sort of completely amoral basis. I sorta want to see her hanging out with Sara Lance from Legends of Tomorrow.
In saying all this good stuff, I still feel like the episode needed to pass through a half dozen more script revisions before it ends up being properly good.
I've been rewatching Battlestar Galactica recently (which, for the Brits, is currently available on Iplayer) and honestly after seeing it like 10 years ago, I'm still going "oh my Bob, this is SO frikking well written, the dialogue, drama, everything."
Just want to focus in on your Georgiou comment, because it resonated with me. And it’s a bloody good point.
For most of my encounters with the Mirror Universe, they’ve been moustache twirling campy villains. But Georgiou is starting to serve as a much finer line between the realties. As you said, she’s not immoral, just amoral. She wants to the get the job done, and isn’t at all fussy about the exact means.
Makes me seriously fear a Mirror Picard!
A proper Mirror universe series would be a joy to behold (the Enterprise 2 parter was the best thing that show ever did) - but a Picard episode could great be fun too - with both his and 7's counterparts.
Welp, starting a watch thru of DS9. Between this thread and a couple locals doing it and talking about it I figured I’d join in since I don’t think I ever saw most of the last season/s.
AduroT wrote: Welp, starting a watch thru of DS9. Between this thread and a couple locals doing it and talking about it I figured I’d join in since I don’t think I ever saw most of the last season/s.
Have fun! My very favorite Star Trek show. Definitely some stuff you can skip in that first season though; "Move Along Home" and "If Wishes Were Horses" are just the worst.
Let us know how you're viewing goes; interested in hearing some takes as the you watch along. In my opinion, Seasons 5-6 are some of the very best that Star Trek has to offer.
It’s pretty classic Trek Trope, and helps to illustrate the tech difference between the two quadrants.
Sure, the end result leaves a lot to be desired. But it does have some merits, meagre as they may be.
All good points, I usually don't skip episodes while watching a show for the first time, but if I'm doing a re-watch I'd leave some of them out. Plus I feel like despite the first season, every alien we meet from the Gamma Quadrant later is more or less just another alien; there were plenty of strange, theocratic, or mercantile races in the Alpha and Delta Quadrants. I felt that overall the galaxy has about the same background level of potential for a given species' evolutionary trajectory.
Also, I believe the first Dominion reference came in Season 2, right? (A quick google shows that you are correct, Grotsnik; the first mention was in "Rules of Acquisition." Leave it to a Ferengi episode to hijack the plot progression like that)
A little bit late to the party, but episode 2 of season 3 was actually pretty good. Definitely felt more like a regular Trek episode and was pretty well done in general. Detmer acting weird seemed to be a little heavy-handed but we don't really know where it's going yet so I'll reserve judgement.
And then the last 2 minutes happened. Would it have killed them to have the crew get themselves out of their predicament instead of having Burnham swoop in to save the day? Also, I assume Burnham will now be adding "future expert" to her long list of skills allowing her to show up how useless the rest of the crew are without her?
I think episode 3 might be the make or break one for me. If they can put together a good ensemble episode and maybe start to develop Detmer's storyline a little and not have Burnham arbitrarily save the day it might just encourage me to keep watching.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It may very well be. Can’t remember if the buff folk with Tula Berry Wine came first?
I've recently re-watched all of the seasons and think you're right. The aliens they are dealing with (which I don't think you see again) mention them with an air of fear..
Kroem wrote:Can I give a shout out to Pick TV and the Horror Channel for showing Star Trek on TV every evening?
They had the episode with the borg Hugh on the other day.
Great episode, particularily loved the bit where Jordi says to Guinan "Well maybe you should go and listen, that is what you're good at isn't it?"
I think the best Trek episodes follow that formula;
1. Set up a moral quandry.
2. Senior officers debate the ethics/ sociology/ philosophy relevant to the situation.
3. Something complicates things even further.
4. Arrive at consensus.
5. Solve the problem imperfectly but still allowing hope for future.
Definitely. That's probably what I like least about some of the new films and why they aren't really Star Trek as it was in those series, replace all of the above with "turn on Beastie Boys Sabotage, aliens explode"
Definitely. That's probably what I like least about some of the new films and why they aren't really Star Trek as it was in those series, replace all of the above with "turn on Beastie Boys Sabotage, aliens explode"
Haha well maybe you're right, sometimes I wish they went one step further though.
Like in the Hugh episode, no one really questions whether there is any merit to the Borg's collectivist society or in TNG: "Symbiosis" no one questions the recitude of condemning the drug pushing Brekkian's to starvation and anarchy by cutting off their trade with the Ornarans.
There is a sort of idealogical certitude that appears sometimes!
There’s also the less than wholesome Trek Trope of the human/alien hybrid always being torn between the two cultures, with the baseline being “hu-mon approach are more corrected”.
Which is why I enjoy Worf so much as a character. He’s Klingon, but signed himself up the Federation. He doesn’t always do as Picard might, but at least it’s an obligation he gets bollocked for, rather than purely cultural.
Spesh when he kills Gowron, and gives Martok the mantle.
One of my favorite Star Trek moments of all time. Michael Dorn is so good as Worf. At the start of watching Next Gen if I had to guess which actor was in the most Trek, I wouldn't have picked Worf - he was never a primary character and had one or two episodes a season. But there was something very compelling about Klingon Politics. And when he makes it to DS9 he comes in as a fully developed character with years of history behind him, and he becomes an integral component of the fabric of the show. I suppose they selected him so they could do the Klingon-Federation War story arc. Not really a point to this ramble, just that I really like the character, and I think it's interesting that Michael Dorn has such a long history with Star Trek that none of the other major cast members can touch - 286 episodes over 11 seasons (seven on TNG, four on DS9), and an appearance in five movies (the four TNG movies and as Worf's grandfather in Undiscovered Country). Compare to Rene Aburjonois's cameo on Enterprise, Robert Picardo's cameo on DS9, Alexander Siddig's and Amir Shimmerman's cameos on TNG (and Shimmerman's first appearance as a Ferengi all the way back in Season 1), Michael Dorn blows them all out of the water. Closest I think would be Colm Meaney who was in 50 episodes of TNG before becoming main cast of DS9.
EDIT: Of course I also have to mention Majel Barret who was the computer voice in TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Nurse Chapel in TOS and (Commander Chapel) in Undiscovered Country, Lwxana Troi throughout TNG and DS9, and Number One in The Cage. If we include off-screen appearances, she's probably the actor who contributed the most. If only we could have explored the politics and drama of Betazed society the way we could have explored the Klingon Empire! Lwxana Troi could have become a main cast member in DS9.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit 2: A quick google reveals that Majel Barret also provided voices to The Animated Series! Is she the only actor that had a role in every major Star Trek series? According to Wikipedia, yes; she plays computer voice in two episodes of Enterprise; sadly she passed in 2008, else I'm sure she would have continued to be involved. I know Lwaxana Troi gets a lot of grief for being a difficult character to get along with (she's actually one of my personal favorites because it's clear that Majel Barret is having so much fun, it's infectious; "Fascination" is one of my favorite Guilty Pleasure episodes), but I don't think anyone could dispute that Barret has contributed a hell of a lot to the Star Trek Industrial Complex.
So far as I’m aware, he’s been a very consistent character and portrayal of said character.
Even in DS9’s wonderful adventures in the Mirror Universe, Worf convinces. We can see where Lt Worf and Regent (?) Worf diverge in terms of loyalty and dedication.
I’d even argue that Worf is more iconic than Spock, precisely because he swallows his pride when denied.
He is nothing if not a Hot Blooded Klingon Warrior. And I absolutely adore how we get to follow his cultural development.
Being adopted and raised by humans, he’s kind of divorced from his culture, only learning of it from Others.
He’s such a compelling character. The native outsider, invested in learning more about his people.
Well since the Klingons are one of the most successful species in the galaxy, their way of doing things must work pretty well.
The Kazon on the other hand, they have all of the flaws of the Klingons with none of their finer qualities!
One thing to consider is that Spock through the seasons never really changed because character change/evolution wasn't really something they went for. There was a bit in the movies, but by and large Spock is Spock.
Worf we see go through quite a lot of changes. In TNG we see some and in DS9 we see more. He evolves, changes and we see into his past, his present and such. We get a really good picture of him as a character. He's always Worf, but the Worf who started TNG is different to the one who ended DS9.
What I always find interesting is seeing him with regular Klingons, because Worf has grown up outside of their society and yet wanted so much to be a part of it. So his view is a very "romantic" style interpretation of what a Klingon should be. He is what they should be according to their rules, their codes and such. Yet he often has to deal with the cold slap in the face reality of the fact that "real Klingons" are corruptible, dishonest, without honour etc..
Overread wrote: One thing to consider is that Spock through the seasons never really changed because character change/evolution wasn't really something they went for. There was a bit in the movies, but by and large Spock is Spock.
Worf we see go through quite a lot of changes. In TNG we see some and in DS9 we see more. He evolves, changes and we see into his past, his present and such. We get a really good picture of him as a character. He's always Worf, but the Worf who started TNG is different to the one who ended DS9.
What I always find interesting is seeing him with regular Klingons, because Worf has grown up outside of their society and yet wanted so much to be a part of it. So his view is a very "romantic" style interpretation of what a Klingon should be. He is what they should be according to their rules, their codes and such. Yet he often has to deal with the cold slap in the face reality of the fact that "real Klingons" are corruptible, dishonest, without honour etc..
Agreed on that last point, one of the better episodes in Season 1 is when the two Klingon Warriors board the Enterprise and talk about going back to "the old ways." I had a bit of trouble believing that he could be so well-versed in Klingon behavior and mannerisms despite growing up among humans, but after a while I realized that it makes complete sense - he's playing up that side of him because it is the core of his identity. I'm sure the reason he's so, for lack of a better term, Klingon conservative is that he grew up within the Federation utopia.
I also like your point on Spock, the most character growth for all of the TOS characters is in the movies.
We also see an episode in TNG with his human parents talking about how they raised him and how they gave him the freedom, even as a child, to express himself and how they adapted to allow such expressions (eg eating/serving Klingon foods and such). I agree being within the Federation allowed him to be who he wanted to be even though he was, for the most part, an outcast.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worf definitely falls into the “well educated, but no experience” category of Klingon.
Akin to a manager hired for their excellent qualifications, who turn out to have zero people skills, and no idea how the job is done;
I think one of the things that made Worf interesting (especially as the TNG era continued into DS9), his how he both reveals the greatest qualities of Klingon culture and it's greatest flaws.
Worf is a Klingon but he was raised by humans and it clearly influenced him. Worf holds an idealized - romantic - image of Klingon culture, one that is gradually torn down over the course of his life and he is forced to reconcile with. It's part of what makes his arc so compelling. The conflict between who Worf believes the Klingon's should be and who the Klingon's actually are. His human upbringing plays into this I think, as Star Trek (well, before more recent series pissed all over the notion) tended to depict a idealistic humanity driven to be its best possible self. I'd say this mentality rubbed off on Worf, who took it and applied it to his own people; They should strive to be the they can be. That's part of why the moment at the end of DS9 is so great Worf giving the mantle to Martok was him living to the highest ideals he held of his culture and rejected the naked power, empty arrogance, and corruption Gowron represented
When you consider how traditional Worf is its no shock when Dax takes a liking to him as Kurzon also shared so many of those romantic notions of Klingons, partly through interaction with previous generations. Since its most likely that the idealised best of a generation or two past is likely a greater influence on Worfs romantic view of Klingons.
What's also interesting is that Worf also represents the loss of identity that all Klingons are sharing. Once they became part of the Federation they lost their edge. In many ways the corruption and decadence is a reaction to them losing a purpose since they are no loner warring with each other nor building and empire like they once were. They reached a peak, joined the Federation and got lost. Refusing to accept change into the Federation yet at the same time losing their own. Worf actually shows that one can be fully Federation in thinking and yet at the same time also the most honourable warrior under the Klingon code.
In many ways its a revelation. We see the same thing with the Ferangi, only this time its Rom and his mother who see the potential gains. Introducing greater equality within their social structure resulting in doubling their profit potential as a species. At the same time we have the Grand Nagus and Quark making a slower adaption to change and then we have Brunt who represents the almost "perfect Ferengi and yet is totally corrupted by it.
In a sense its a continual message that extreme viewpoints can be fine so long as they are balanced by morality.
Spesh when he kills Gowron, and gives Martok the mantle.
One of my favorite Star Trek moments of all time. <snip>
Ah me too, absolutely awesome.
Along with that this was probably one of my favourite scenes in Star Trek let alone Deep Space Nine, from the episode 'In the Pale Moonlight'. This still puts hairs up on my neck watching it.
Spesh when he kills Gowron, and gives Martok the mantle.
One of my favorite Star Trek moments of all time. <snip>
Ah me too, absolutely awesome.
Along with that this was probably one of my favourite scenes in Star Trek let alone Deep Space Nine, from the episode 'In the Pale Moonlight'. This still puts hairs up on my neck watching it.
Spesh when he kills Gowron, and gives Martok the mantle.
One of my favorite Star Trek moments of all time. <snip>
Ah me too, absolutely awesome.
Along with that this was probably one of my favourite scenes in Star Trek let alone Deep Space Nine, from the episode 'In the Pale Moonlight'. This still puts hairs up on my neck watching it.
Agreed - can you imagine such a scene with Super Burnham or more importantly anyone caring.
I think In the Pale Moonlight was one of the best Star Trek episodes ever made and really showcased DS9's strength as a show; the conflict between a character's ideals and the unideal reality around them. It's also just one of the most succulent moments of television imo for the moral and ethical quagmire inherent to clandestine operations.
LordofHats wrote: I think In the Pale Moonlight was one of the best Star Trek episodes ever made and really showcased DS9's strength as a show; the conflict between a character's ideals and the unideal reality around them. It's also just one of the most succulent moments of television imo for the moral and ethical quagmire inherent to clandestine operations.
I thought it was an interesting choice to treat this episode and, in a similar vein, all of Section 31, as the responsibility entirely of the individuals. They say a couple times that Section 31 acts without precedent, so they can interfere whenever they see the need. I don't really agree with that, I don't think it's fair for Sisko or Sloan to take responsibility for the entire Federation - but it was smart of the writers to lean into that choice, because it makes things more ambiguous - is it a noble sacrifice for Sisko to not be able to live with it (despite his protests), or is he also damning the rest of the Federation for being culpable in the benefits of his decision? Even though I really disagree with Sisko's decision in that episode, the framing of the episode of him trying to rationalize the choice to himself served to keep the character likeable (then again, I'm already a big Sisko fan). Same with Sloan; when Bashir and O'Brien hang out in his brain, you get a sense of what he sacrificed to be able to carry on Section 31. Is that a noble sacrifice? In my opinion, no*; I think Sisko and Sloan are both being very selfish and romanticizing unjustifiable choices by turning the consequences into "man pain." But that's just my reading of it, and I think the writing is strong enough to allow multiple valid interpretations.
*
Spoiler:
Then again, the Romulans join the war! "Do the ends justify the means?" is a recurring theme in DS9, and it is handled incredibly well in "The Pale Moonlight."
DS9 really asked the question of if the federation can live up to its ideals when its seiged on all sides, Cardassians, Dominion, Klingons all of them.
And i would say they kinda suceeded for the federation as a whole, but not for individuals to keep their own values.
It really turned TNG and Rodenberry's notion of "Respect all Cultures no matter what" notion on its head, when the culture itself was meant to destroy or subjugate.
I think there are a few shows that stick with you your whole life, and for me, DS9 is one such show,
Once the Dominion is defeated in the Alpha Quadrant, they’re simply banished to whence they came under a peace agreement - with only a single Founder being held prisoner.
The difference between Sisko and Section 31 is that Sisko was only prepared to go so far - it was Garak that did the strictly necessary.
Yes, Sisko does say he probably did know what happened was necessary. But he had good reasons to do it.
And it also echoes Spock’s “needs of the many” standpoint.
Romulans vs Dominion was inevitable. The trick was to bring that conflict forward whilst there were other powers to ally with.
Though DS9 tackling that stuff, and doing it so well, did have its own downsides of lesser writing teams trying to put those kinds of stories into later Trek works as well. Always to worse results.
Same issue really with "What defines a life and what rights does life have, regardless of the origins of that life?" from TNG. The overarching plot with Data, and especially episodes like Measure of a Man, tackled that so well that any Trek following it which tries to tackle that theme will have to somehow escape from that shadow and be even better.
TNG in particular was probably the last of the classical episodic sci-fi series, as Babylon 5 (at least as far as I’m aware) introduced arcing plot lines.
Yet we also see callbacks and loose sequel stories appearing. Certainly TNG had a largely fixed timeline, where things that happened remained happened.
In terms of Disco and Picard, I still feels it’s just too early to declare them DOA. Certainly season 3 of Disco feels like an improvement so far. And whilst I’m not terribly fussed by her omnicompetence, it definitely needs to let someone other than Burnham take the lead.
hotsauceman1 wrote: DS9 really asked the question of if the federation can live up to its ideals when its seiged on all sides, Cardassians, Dominion, Klingons all of them.
And i would say they kinda suceeded for the federation as a whole, but not for individuals to keep their own values.
I always found that particular episode interesting, because it pretty much defined my problems with classic D&D paladins, as people who hold their own values as superior to the good of society. The won't lie, always personal honor over practicality just grates on me.
A big part of what made Sisko a good person (and a good captain) was he was willing to make personal sacrifices for the people around him, rather than stick to the book and use it as a shield to justify why it wasn't his problem in the first place.
It also provided a third Starfleet Captain Archtype.
Kirk is more swashbuckling, I guess you could say. A man of action.
Picard is the negotiator. The exemplar of Starfleet’s ideals (and thanks to Q, technically the exemplar of humanity?)
Sisko? He’s a wounded individual. The first senior officer lead to have lost someone dear to him in pursuit of his career. He’s the closest to being a pragmatist. He’s also, to the Bajoran’s at least, an unwilling messiah. He’s the most conflicted of all the Captains so far. And he can’t simply Warp away from any errors of judgement he might make.
I’m not a big fan of Janeway (character, not the actress for clarity), so I won’t offer my thinks on her. I’ll just say “Poor old Eternal Ensign Harry Kim, his boss was awful. And seemingly utterly blind to the progress her crew made”.
I always felt that Janeway's biggest problem was the writers. One week she's a complete hardcore 'rules are rules' stickler, the next week she's hiding in her quarters for months, the week after that she's inventing exceptions to justify doing whatever she wants. And her character keeps oscillating back and forth, with no regard to continuity, just whoever happens to have the lead on writing that week.
And then her 'final form' appears and everything goes out the window.
Voss wrote: I always felt that Janeway's biggest problem was the writers. One week she's a complete hardcore 'rules are rules' stickler, the next week she's hiding in her quarters for months, the week after that she's inventing exceptions to justify doing whatever she wants. And her character keeps oscillating back and forth, with no regard to continuity, just whoever happens to have the lead on writing that week.
And then her 'final form' appears and everything goes out the window.
Yup. Voyager suffered greatly from Rick Berman's views on what Trek should be.
Voss wrote: I always felt that Janeway's biggest problem was the writers. One week she's a complete hardcore 'rules are rules' stickler, the next week she's hiding in her quarters for months, the week after that she's inventing exceptions to justify doing whatever she wants. And her character keeps oscillating back and forth, with no regard to continuity, just whoever happens to have the lead on writing that week.
And then her 'final form' appears and everything goes out the window.
That might actually be the very Badger that’s irked me. Inconsistency without pressure.
I’ve waxed lyrical before about how much of a wasted opportunity Voyager was, and there’s an old thread out there somewhere covering it. Given I pushed back against peeps just posting “I don’t like Disco” only a page or two back, I shan’t be hypocritical in my own actions here. Thread is out there if you care to see my head weasels on that issue.
I'm not sure if I've said it in this thread, but I've certainly said it before. - This is ultimately most of my problems with Voyager.
I can't dislike Janeways character, because she never had a character. All she ever was, was a plot device. - Which, naturally, culminated in the Endgame finale...
Ultimately the best thing, and the thing that kept me watching Voyager, were all the scenes between The Doctor and 7 of 9 in the second half of the show. - I would argue that there was plenty of material between them that did indeed match Data's best in 'The Next Generation.'
Why didn't they go somewhere they know is safe like Sanctuary or the wrecked Starbase to upgrade before jumping into the unknown? (And did Burham have her own courier ship?)
Spesh when he kills Gowron, and gives Martok the mantle.
One of my favorite Star Trek moments of all time. <snip>
Ah me too, absolutely awesome.
Along with that this was probably one of my favourite scenes in Star Trek let alone Deep Space Nine, from the episode 'In the Pale Moonlight'. This still puts hairs up on my neck watching it.
Agreed - can you imagine such a scene with Super Burnham or more importantly anyone caring.
not really ebcause they'd never reach that, in fact I think it's worth contrasting DS9 vs discovery in how they handle War. DS9 slow burned the dominion war, It was what, season 5 before the war actually began? by time it began we knew who the players on each side where, we knew what the stakes where, and they enforced the stakes every chance they got, a number of episodes began with the latest casualtiy reports coming in, a major character remarking they knew someone aboard a ship that was lost, and said loss often being relevant to providing motivbations for the story, they explored loss, triumph, the human cost of war (consider the episodes dealing with Nog learning to deal with the loss of his leg) the characters also evolved during the war, using Nog as the perfect example, he went from Jake's friend who was trouble, to a fantastic officer. etc.
then you have discovery, they started the war in episode one season 1, showed us the discovery being super special, and ended the war by the end of the first season.. we where told it was an important war, the UFP was on the ropes, but.... did they do anything to sell that?
IMHO discovery is aiming to be the next DS9, but much like how the DCU is suffering trying to catch up too fast to the MCU, they're moving too fast, and not realizing that the Journy is whats important
An unexpected trip to the US let me catch up on the new Treks.
I really, really liked Picard... up to the last episode.
Sir Patrick was excellent as always.
I loved Captain Rios and his holograms
I loved that Raffi was a conspiracy nut, an alcoholic, a competent officer, a caring mother and was right all along!
I thought there were enough cameos with TNG characters to make it feel like a continuation and not a rehash. Riker's bit was surprisingly fulfilling.
I really liked it.
But...
The finale. OK.
Spoiler:
So first off we have a violation of Chekov's Law, you have a Borg cube, you have a major plot about former Borg, you have a big bad of million year old AIs who are coming to destroy everything... and they have nothing to do with each other? Opps, all the Borg got shot into space and now they're dead. Opps the cube got drained by a giant flower and now it's crashed. Opps the Romulans killed all the ex-Borg. And the big bad are not the origin of the Borg, they're apparently not related. Just a different race of ancient AIs who are going to destroy everything.
Which brings me to the big bad. A major theme throughout is that the future is not written that there's no guarantee the androids are going to be a threat and they should be given a chance. But not the million year AI from beyond the galaxy, we're just going to assume prima facia they are evil and not even try and talk. So I guess we only give the benefit of the doubt to cute Asian robots?
No big fight with the Romulans. All those pretty, pretty ships and no big fight. Which, yes, is a very Star Trek solution but still
Picard's death. This was especially manipulative. Picard dies, they spend 5 minutes mourning him and... ha-ha faked you out he's fine. He's a robot now, but didn't get any robot powers and looks exactly the same and will age and die. Instead how about your mourn Data who will killed off 15 years ago and just replaced with another Soong descendant. Cry for me fan boy, cry!
Of these the AIs (who never got a name) was the real disappointment. We had no evidence (other than a million year old warning) they were hostile, and it felt un-Star Trek to just assume they were. You can't praise the possibility of coexistence with the Soong androids while just assuming the alien AIs are going to destroy everything.
Overall 4~5 stars and I'd watch it again. If I could watch it in Egypt
Kid_Kyoto wrote: An unexpected trip to the US let me catch up on the new Treks.
I really, really liked Picard... up to the last episode.
Sir Patrick was excellent as always.
I loved Captain Rios and his holograms
I loved that Raffi was a conspiracy nut, an alcoholic, a competent officer, a caring mother and was right all along!
I thought there were enough cameos with TNG characters to make it feel like a continuation and not a rehash. Riker's bit was surprisingly fulfilling.
I really liked it.
But...
The finale. OK.
Spoiler:
So first off we have a violation of Chekov's Law, you have a Borg cube, you have a major plot about former Borg, you have a big bad of million year old AIs who are coming to destroy everything... and they have nothing to do with each other? Opps, all the Borg got shot into space and now they're dead. Opps the cube got drained by a giant flower and now it's crashed. Opps the Romulans killed all the ex-Borg. And the big bad are not the origin of the Borg, they're apparently not related. Just a different race of ancient AIs who are going to destroy everything.
Which brings me to the big bad. A major theme throughout is that the future is not written that there's no guarantee the androids are going to be a threat and they should be given a chance. But not the million year AI from beyond the galaxy, we're just going to assume prima facia they are evil and not even try and talk. So I guess we only give the benefit of the doubt to cute Asian robots?
No big fight with the Romulans. All those pretty, pretty ships and no big fight. Which, yes, is a very Star Trek solution but still
Picard's death. This was especially manipulative. Picard dies, they spend 5 minutes mourning him and... ha-ha faked you out he's fine. He's a robot now, but didn't get any robot powers and looks exactly the same and will age and die. Instead how about your mourn Data who will killed off 15 years ago and just replaced with another Soong descendant. Cry for me fan boy, cry!
Of these the AIs (who never got a name) was the real disappointment. We had no evidence (other than a million year old warning) they were hostile, and it felt un-Star Trek to just assume they were. You can't praise the possibility of coexistence with the Soong androids while just assuming the alien AIs are going to destroy everything.
Overall 4~5 stars and I'd watch it again. If I could watch it in Egypt
Def agree with everything there.... the series is good, sadly the last epsiode is a cluster feth from start to finish
Spoiler:
the stupid "longevity is bad M'kay crap thats permiating everything these days" - not social inequality, not bad people doing bad things but oh no you might live a little longer
I feel like the last episode of Picard is the sort of episode that gets written when, after you've written your entire season on the assumption you'll get more than one season and have planned out the next several seasons with an overarching plotline, the suits suddenly walk in and tell you "there might not even be a second season, wrap everything up neatly in the last episode, but, just in case, leave a window open for another season." And then you chug a pot of coffee and write that last episode in one night on a caffeine-fueled fever dream.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I feel like the last episode of Picard is the sort of episode that gets written when, after you've written your entire season on the assumption you'll get more than one season and have planned out the next several seasons with an overarching plotline, the suits suddenly walk in and tell you "there might not even be a second season, wrap everything up neatly in the last episode, but, just in case, leave a window open for another season." And then you chug a pot of coffee and write that last episode in one night on a caffeine-fueled fever dream.
Which sadly happens more than it should. I think its also because its very hard to sell a TV series to western producers without wrapping up most of the story lines within the last episode. It's something you notice as a stark difference to say, anime, where they are perfectly happy ending a series even without actually answering any of the big questions it raises. Or half way through the manga adaptation because you run out of cash or the manga hasn't gone any further etc...
Western studios want it all wrapped up nice and neat; which does hinder doing long term plot arcs.
Weird if thats the case, Picard is practically money in the bank for CBS. The only worry I'd have is Sir Patrick might not be able to do another season.
Spoiler:
Unlike Picard we can't just plop him into a new body.
I really thought the ending was a way to recast him if need be, though I think Patrick Stewart is even harder to replace than Shatner.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Weird if thats the case, Picard is practically money in the bank for CBS. The only worry I'd have is Sir Patrick might not be able to do another season.
Spoiler:
Unlike Picard we can't just plop him into a new body.
I really thought the ending was a way to recast him if need be, though I think Patrick Stewart is even harder to replace than Shatner.
James McAvoy might beg to differ and he is only 5-6 years younger than Stewart was when he debuted in the role.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: An unexpected trip to the US let me catch up on the new Treks.
I really, really liked Picard... up to the last episode.
Sir Patrick was excellent as always.
I loved Captain Rios and his holograms
I loved that Raffi was a conspiracy nut, an alcoholic, a competent officer, a caring mother and was right all along!
I thought there were enough cameos with TNG characters to make it feel like a continuation and not a rehash. Riker's bit was surprisingly fulfilling.
I really liked it.
But...
The finale. OK.
Spoiler:
So first off we have a violation of Chekov's Law, you have a Borg cube, you have a major plot about former Borg, you have a big bad of million year old AIs who are coming to destroy everything... and they have nothing to do with each other? Opps, all the Borg got shot into space and now they're dead. Opps the cube got drained by a giant flower and now it's crashed. Opps the Romulans killed all the ex-Borg. And the big bad are not the origin of the Borg, they're apparently not related. Just a different race of ancient AIs who are going to destroy everything.
Which brings me to the big bad. A major theme throughout is that the future is not written that there's no guarantee the androids are going to be a threat and they should be given a chance. But not the million year AI from beyond the galaxy, we're just going to assume prima facia they are evil and not even try and talk. So I guess we only give the benefit of the doubt to cute Asian robots?
No big fight with the Romulans. All those pretty, pretty ships and no big fight. Which, yes, is a very Star Trek solution but still
Picard's death. This was especially manipulative. Picard dies, they spend 5 minutes mourning him and... ha-ha faked you out he's fine. He's a robot now, but didn't get any robot powers and looks exactly the same and will age and die. Instead how about your mourn Data who will killed off 15 years ago and just replaced with another Soong descendant. Cry for me fan boy, cry!
Of these the AIs (who never got a name) was the real disappointment. We had no evidence (other than a million year old warning) they were hostile, and it felt un-Star Trek to just assume they were. You can't praise the possibility of coexistence with the Soong androids while just assuming the alien AIs are going to destroy everything.
Overall 4~5 stars and I'd watch it again. If I could watch it in Egypt
Def agree with everything there.... the series is good, sadly the last epsiode is a cluster feth from start to finish
Spoiler:
the stupid "longevity is bad M'kay crap thats permiating everything these days" - not social inequality, not bad people doing bad things but oh no you might live a little longer
AAAAAND I think the reason WHY
Spoiler:
Longevity is bad complemty went over your head. No one claims longevity is causing socital problems (although a large number of people whom are old and remaining in their positions instead of retiring/dying off CAN cause problems as it increases social inequity) it's because living forever means watching your friends and family die, it kiiinda sucks. this has been a theme in sci-fi and fantasy for a looong time.
And it’s not as if the human mind is exactly prepared for that.
Already we live well beyond our natural, in the wild life span. And we see many, many problems with longer life. As a personal example? Both my Grandfather’s developed dementia. Which is a horrible way to go.
Now, if we live forever, how much heartbreak would you go through just by outliving everyone else? How long until utter despair sets in, as you know your new friends are there for a mere blink of the eye?
Would the human mind adapt, or snap?
For me, having seen what happened to my Grandad’s, and knowing there’s therefore a high risk of dementia in my future? I’d be happy to check out around 80. Gives me time to enjoy retirement, without the feeling that I’m just hanging around because medical science makes it possible.
And it’s not as if the human mind is exactly prepared for that.
Already we live well beyond our natural, in the wild life span. And we see many, many problems with longer life. As a personal example? Both my Grandfather’s developed dementia. Which is a horrible way to go.
Now, if we live forever, how much heartbreak would you go through just by outliving everyone else? How long until utter despair sets in, as you know your new friends are there for a mere blink of the eye?
Would the human mind adapt, or snap?
For me, having seen what happened to my Grandad’s, and knowing there’s therefore a high risk of dementia in my future? I’d be happy to check out around 80. Gives me time to enjoy retirement, without the feeling that I’m just hanging around because medical science makes it possible.
Sorry. Bit of a personal post.
Seen in a nuymbher of shows Altered Carbon being the most prominant that twisted the central story from socila inequality to a much dumber - Logevity/immortality is bad m'kay.
Why are you assuming everyone else dies but you/ protangonist? Read the Culture novels for a utopian version - any person only dies if and when they choose to.
Death remains our greatest enemy often as you say accompanied by suffering which again is avoidable with better medicine / science.
It also depends if there is anything after death - if not life is very very short.
Lastly - and this is likely just me - there are few people in my life I could not live without - a few but not many.
I think the longevity=bad issue was problematic because...
Spoiler:
no one mentioned it before.
In fact, no one mentioned that Data was 'alive' (as a simulation) until the last 5 minutes of the show. And then we're supposed to take on this lesson that Data's immortality is bad and he wants to die because a life only matters if it ends.
OK, that's something to chew on, but it was never raised before.
In fact the whole final scene with Data just struck me as manipulative. We'd already been told to weep for Picard and now we're to weep for Data instead? But hey, here's Brent Spinner playing another zany Soong brother so he's not really gone! Honestly the whole sequence could have been dropped. Surely Picard's death and return (he is risen!) is enough of an emotional payoff? Data died and was mourned 15 years ago, let's move on.
Yes, yes. Weep for the immortals because they're going to experience loss. Guess what? That's a hard sell.
Every time I see it, whether it's vampires, AIs, ponies, elves, whatever, I don't care.
Mortals experience loss too. It doesn't define our existence, even though you're (barring accidents or violence) almost certain to lose previous generations, and 50/50 of your own age group before you yourself go. And here's the point where selfishness kicks in- when people talk about this, they talk about the people they lose, never the people that will lose them. Younger siblings, children, protégés, etc. somehow that never comes up.
Immortality is a major benefit, no matter how you slice it. Yes, immortals will experience loss just like everyone else. But they'll never inflict loss on their loved ones. That's a huge benefit, one that people inclined to weep over immortality never consider in their selfishness.
The immortals will have more time to celebrate life with their loved ones, it's a simple mathematical fact- you're getting extra time with siblings, children, etc, new lovers and loved ones. More life, more love, more joy, more people to share it with.
Extreme pet peeve when it comes to fantasy/sci-fi.
Voss wrote: Yes, yes. Weep for the immortals because they're going to experience loss. Guess what? That's a hard sell.
Every time I see it, whether it's vampires, AIs, ponies, elves, whatever, I don't care.
Mortals experience loss too. It doesn't define our existence, even though you're (barring accidents or violence) almost certain to lose previous generations, and 50/50 of your own age group before you yourself go. And here's the point where selfishness kicks in- when people talk about this, they talk about the people they lose, never the people that will lose them. Younger siblings, children, protégés, etc. somehow that never comes up.
Immortality is a major benefit, no matter how you slice it. Yes, immortals will experience loss just like everyone else. But they'll never inflict loss on their loved ones. That's a huge benefit, one that people inclined to weep over immortality never consider in their selfishness.
Voss wrote: Yes, yes. Weep for the immortals because they're going to experience loss. Guess what? That's a hard sell.
Every time I see it, whether it's vampires, AIs, ponies, elves, whatever, I don't care.
Mortals experience loss too. It doesn't define our existence, even though you're (barring accidents or violence) almost certain to lose previous generations, and 50/50 of your own age group before you yourself go. And here's the point where selfishness kicks in- when people talk about this, they talk about the people they lose, never the people that will lose them. Younger siblings, children, protégés, etc. somehow that never comes up.
Immortality is a major benefit, no matter how you slice it. Yes, immortals will experience loss just like everyone else. But they'll never inflict loss on their loved ones. That's a huge benefit, one that people inclined to weep over immortality never consider in their selfishness.
The immortals will have more time to celebrate life with their loved ones, it's a simple mathematical fact- you're getting extra time with siblings, children, etc, new lovers and loved ones. More life, more love, more joy, more people to share it with.
Extreme pet peeve when it comes to fantasy/sci-fi.
I had a HS friend die when I was 20. Likely drowned. A younger brother of a HS basketball teammate died a couple of years later. Found out that a girl I had a thing for died a few years back, likely suicide. Two grandparents and one great-grandparent have died since I've been a teenager/adult. One parent is now dead. I think my count is likely lower than average.
I think the greatest loss one would actually experience with immortality is a cultural one. Imagine someone being born in 1700 still being alive. The world around them has changed many, many times. Hell, that's true for someone who born in 1900. My great-grandmother that lived to be 103 IIRC survived both World Wars, went from phones and cars being a rarity, to a world where nearly everyone stateside has a phone with more computing power than the first personal computers by an incomparable degree. Assuming my math is correct, there are likely still some elderly folks around whose grandparents had been slaves. Even though I'm still young the world I grew up in is markedly different from the one that kids live in now and it seems like change has been accelerating at least on a technological level since the 1950s.
On the other hand, getting to see all of that happen in real time would be incredible. I still can't help but wonder if immortality ultimately leads to a loss of humanity due to a growing disconnect from the rest of the world and the eventual realization that despite all the change human nature remains static.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: I'm going to go ahead and say it; Star Trek: Enterprise has really cool ship design.
There are some gems there. I'm a bit lukewarm on the NX itself but I really like the Vulcan ship designs. I do however like how they tried to make the era look more primitive in universe while still being more advanced in real life (i.e. no candy crush consoles on the bridge!).
Hey trexmeyer - there were people alive until the 1990s whose PARENTS survived the Irish Famine, and the last child of an American Civil War veteran died in... June of this year (2020).
The lady in question was still collecting her father's war pension!
My own great-great-grandfather remarried in his 70s, to my great-great-grandmother in her 20s. It was a very Victorian kind of security for women. My great grandmother, born in 1891, went from walking 5 miles each way to her job as a maid at a big country house to seeing a world where men flew to the moon.
Voss wrote: Yes, yes. Weep for the immortals because they're going to experience loss. Guess what? That's a hard sell.
Every time I see it, whether it's vampires, AIs, ponies, elves, whatever, I don't care.
Mortals experience loss too. It doesn't define our existence, even though you're (barring accidents or violence) almost certain to lose previous generations, and 50/50 of your own age group before you yourself go. And here's the point where selfishness kicks in- when people talk about this, they talk about the people they lose, never the people that will lose them. Younger siblings, children, protégés, etc. somehow that never comes up.
Immortality is a major benefit, no matter how you slice it. Yes, immortals will experience loss just like everyone else. But they'll never inflict loss on their loved ones. That's a huge benefit, one that people inclined to weep over immortality never consider in their selfishness.
The immortals will have more time to celebrate life with their loved ones, it's a simple mathematical fact- you're getting extra time with siblings, children, etc, new lovers and loved ones. More life, more love, more joy, more people to share it with.
Extreme pet peeve when it comes to fantasy/sci-fi.
I had a HS friend die when I was 20. Likely drowned. A younger brother of a HS basketball teammate died a couple of years later. Found out that a girl I had a thing for died a few years back, likely suicide. Two grandparents and one great-grandparent have died since I've been a teenager/adult. One parent is now dead. I think my count is likely lower than average.
I think the greatest loss one would actually experience with immortality is a cultural one. Imagine someone being born in 1700 still being alive. The world around them has changed many, many times. Hell, that's true for someone who born in 1900. My great-grandmother that lived to be 103 IIRC survived both World Wars, went from phones and cars being a rarity, to a world where nearly everyone stateside has a phone with more computing power than the first personal computers by an incomparable degree. Assuming my math is correct, there are likely still some elderly folks around whose grandparents had been slaves. Even though I'm still young the world I grew up in is markedly different from the one that kids live in now and it seems like change has been accelerating at least on a technological level since the 1950s.
On the other hand, getting to see all of that happen in real time would be incredible. I still can't help but wonder if immortality ultimately leads to a loss of humanity due to a growing disconnect from the rest of the world and the eventual realization that despite all the change human nature remains static.
Very anecdotal, but my grandmother was born in 1907 and had known one of the guys that opened the pyramids during their 're-discovery', both World Wars, the moon landings and everything else that had happened that century. Really mad if you think about it. Although she was an intelligent woman and had a passion for life, by the time she was very elderly she felt the world had changed so greatly to be unrecognisable from her youth. I won't say that she was glad to die when she did pass in the 90s (who would be?), but there was certainly an acceptance that she had had her time on this earth.
I think, like you say, a connection with the world and culture around us is part of being human. If we lose that we would become something else, something which certainly makes interesting material for sci-fi writers and philosophers!
Through that lens, that’s someone who will only ever know loss.
and in data's case we're talking about someone whom 1: Had spent the last 30 years living in a box (that's gonna....... warp your prespective) and 2: whose ultimate aspiration was always "to be as human as possiable" the latter is reason eneugh for him to embrace the idea of mortality
He's currently suing (and being countersued by) his third and most recent fired director. I loved the original Prelude fan film more than anything I've watched from official trek in the past decade (3 JJ trek movies and 3 seasons of nuTrek.. didn't watch Lower Decks though) but many of the people who made the former (both on screen and off screen) are long gone. With this latest kerfuffle, he's claiming that he has to reshoot what was just shot pre-pandemic because it wasn't very good according to him now that the Director is publicly feuding with him and of course needs more money to do so since the money from the previous shoot was now wasted since unless he settles/wins the lawsuits.
As for the actors/characters, Richard Hatch/Kharn pass away while Tony Todd/Ramirez and Gary Graham/Soval left in a tizzy. Kate Vernon/Sonya is holding off on doing her part because according to the latest official axanar stream she wants to see the final script before commiting (the script that is now the source of the newest lawsuits). It's basically only Peters/Garth and JG Hertler/Sam left from the original cast.
To borrow from Star Wars, you were the chosen one, Axanar! You were supposed to bring balance to Trek! :(
Yeah. I can't help but feel Axanar is like Star Citizen. It's never coming out. The big talking head behind it is just going to keep teasing that it's almost here while holding out his hand for more money. It's like there's a new industry now where you can get paid to 'work' but never actually deliver any sort of end product.
LordofHats wrote: Yeah. I can't help but feel Axanar is like Star Citizen. It's never coming out. The big talking head behind it is just going to keep teasing that it's almost here while holding out his hand for more money. It's like there's a new industry now where you can get paid to 'work' but never actually deliver any sort of end product.
Eh its nothing new. Duke Nukem spent well over a decade in that kind of pit.
It just becomes something when you notice it and its related to something you want; or when its generated vast sums of money and seems like a never-ending pit of money. Sometimes it is intentional and sometimes its just because whoever is in charge isn't good at their job. They get too fine-detailed or too demanding on requirements. Scrapping chunks of the project over and over and demanding improvement and so long as the money keeps rolling in (or at least so long as everyone can be afforded) they keep going.
Heck you can get this with school work; that essay that never ever seems to finish. Just like with school there's always a hard deadline. In school it when you can't ask for another extension - in business its when the money dries up. Though the sad thing is sometimes the money dries up and the project lead keeps going and going - even when there's no feasible way to raise funds or keep it alive they sink their money in over and over.
LordofHats wrote: Yeah. I can't help but feel Axanar is like Star Citizen. It's never coming out. The big talking head behind it is just going to keep teasing that it's almost here while holding out his hand for more money. It's like there's a new industry now where you can get paid to 'work' but never actually deliver any sort of end product.
Eh its nothing new. Duke Nukem spent well over a decade in that kind of pit.
.
LordofHats wrote: Yeah. I can't help but feel Axanar is like Star Citizen. It's never coming out. The big talking head behind it is just going to keep teasing that it's almost here while holding out his hand for more money. It's like there's a new industry now where you can get paid to 'work' but never actually deliver any sort of end product.
Eh its nothing new. Duke Nukem spent well over a decade in that kind of pit.
.
and the end result was complete and utter garbage
It's worse than that. I went and read about it after this thread. Duke Nukem Forever is misogynistic to a degree that is nauseating.
Spoiler:
The celebrity twins he bangs are impregnated by aliens and proceed to apparently explore before his eyes when giving birth. Just writing that sentence out makes me feel sick. I don't know how people can condone this crap.
Prelude to Axanar is enjoyable, but from what I've read it's not actually based on canon material. Garth of Izar's legendary victory has multiple variations and none of them (ASFAIK) have appeared on TV. I do like seeing Tony Todd, Martok, Apollo, and Ellen Tigh in their respective roles and the fellow playing Garth has an uncanny resemblance to his TOS version.
Prelude to Axanar is based on an old FASA RPG campaign more than anything in the Star Trek canon.
Yup. I really like the Four Years War book that actually deals with the conflict (whereas the one with Axanar in its name is a TMP era adventure). It does a great job with both technical details missing from the construction manual (like introduction dates of tech) as well as the tactics and strategies of both sides in the conflict.
So, they reference no non-Trill hosts in two thousand years, did they lose the records from that time Riker was a temporary host?
Also a reference to virtually no suitable Trill hosts left, but didn’t DS9 decide that virtually all Trill were able to be hosts and the whole rarity thing was a lie?
AduroT wrote: So, they reference no non-Trill hosts in two thousand years, did they lose the records from that time Riker was a temporary host?
Also a reference to virtually no suitable Trill hosts left, but didn’t DS9 decide that virtually all Trill were able to be hosts and the whole rarity thing was a lie?
A truth which was again covered up, for fear it would reduce Symbionts to commodities to be bought and sold.
The Trill are also clear that their knowledge has been decimated following the Burn - so that one time one human was a host for a very, very short time? Very easily forgotten over the centuries.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just checked. Around 50% of Trill are capable of joining. But each year, only around 500 Symbionts are available.
Given Symbionts share memories and lifetimes and that, the academy structure ensures they’re blended with the finest - those who truly want it, and will add to the overall gestalt in a meaningful way.
That’s a powerful sociological tool in its own right - the exact morals of I’ll leave to the individual.
AduroT wrote: So, they reference no non-Trill hosts in two thousand years, did they lose the records from that time Riker was a temporary host?
Also a reference to virtually no suitable Trill hosts left, but didn’t DS9 decide that virtually all Trill were able to be hosts and the whole rarity thing was a lie?
Clearly this is a separate universe or timeline from TNG/DS9.
It mostly seemed to fit from my memory of DS9, particularly if you assume that knowledge was lost or hidden over, what was functionally an apocalypse.
Because that's really what this is, a post-Apocalyptic Star Trek.
My memory of TNG is a bit, well, vaguer, but the line in the episode mentioned 'no successful non-human hosts' - Wasn't the whole thing that Riker and the Symbiote were dying unless it got removed?
Spoiler:
I'm kind of curious about how they're going to take the 'past life' image / ghost that isn't malevolent, like Dax's serial killer one. It's going to be an interesting story.
Overall, I'd say season 3 is a big step up for them so far. The occasional wobbly bits here and there, sure. But a good step up.
I'm now wondering where the Federation are going to be based, I have a few ideas that it's going to be somewhere Important.
Bajor and DS9?
Khitomer?
K-7?
I also like the idea that for 'Discovery' they really have gone back to the 'Caravan of the Stars' space Western feel of the original Star Trek. I think this is what they always wanted for the show, but they found out after the first season that it didn't really work fitting in the design space of a decade before Trek, because people were wanting to see more original Trek-ish things. - Which is, where I imagine Pike's show answers that wish.
But we've got lots of Western elements now, like the Couriers (which of course, also gave me the Western inspired Fallout New Vegas vibes).
Then the idea of these little forts of Federation presence out in the 'wilderness'.
I imagine that when they do find the Federation, it will be pretty similar to the Federation we know, but due to the lack of dilithium (Which I guess would be the railroads in the Western analogy?) their sphere of direct influence is very limited.
All in all, I think this has been a good step of a setting for Discovery. And, of course, it's simply just a possible future, so no need to worry.
ALTHOUGH, part of me still wonders if there's crossovers with Control and the TotallyNotReapers at the end of Picard.
And Dilithium isn’t crucial for warp travel. It just makes matter-antimatter reactors efficient. The Romulans use quantum singularities by TNG, so the Federation should have no problem figuring that tech out over decades post-Voyager. That is, if they don’t just develop Omega particle reactors or Subspace taps or something.
And Dilithium isn’t crucial for warp travel. It just makes matter-antimatter reactors efficient. The Romulans use quantum singularities by TNG, so the Federation should have no problem figuring that tech out over decades post-Voyager. That is, if they don’t just develop Omega particle reactors or Subspace taps or something.
Yeah I am unimpressed with the handwave. Book mentions like 3 other FTL methods, quantum slipstream and whatever. There was also a passing mention of the Gorn destroying 2 light years of subspace or something, so maybe we can assume there's more to it? Spacial rifts and anomalies and warp tears across the whole of space making any FTL hazardous? Maybe?
Discovery definitely seems to have improved since the first episode of this season. Episodes 2-4 felt a lot more like Star Trek and they seem to be giving the rest of the crew more screen time, which has already helped make the show better and more balanced.
I like the direction they're going with the fragile mental/emotional state of the crew and the scene in the last episode at the dinner was really well done.
Lower Decks - bit of rough edges, the two main characters are so thoroughly unlikable, Becket is a truly annoying Mary Sue and Bradward is just too stupid to live. But but I got a smile or two each time. I'd watch season 2. I just hope they don't hit a reset button after the last episode.
In the larger picture I think it answers the question of where are the enlisted folks in Star Fleet.
Answer - they're crowded out by overqualified, overeager Ensigns who will vacuum the conference rooms if it means they can be out there on a starship. So yes there are enlisted (the guys in TOS wearing the karate gis, the guys in TMP wearing the red boiler suits, and of course Chief O'Brien in TNG) but they're getting scarce. It's like people in competitive companies and industries with Masters degrees working as secretaries to get their foot in the door. And why would a captain take an E5 shuttle pilot when he could get an O1 command officer who can do first contact, helm the ship AND fly shuttles too. So the E5 gets stuck flying shuttles between Mars and Earth cause Starships have way too many overqualified applicants competing for way too few jobs.
Also it answers why captains and first officers are beaming down to hostile planets and leading commando missions. No one get promoted for saying they sent their highly qualified commando team on a mission. You get promoted for leading from the front. And everyone wants to move up. From a starbase to a starship. From the USS Cerritos to the USS Titan, from the Titan to the Enterprise. And so on. If you've ever worked in a competitive environment it suddenly makes sense.
Also it answers why captains and first officers are beaming down to hostile planets and leading commando missions. No one get promoted for saying they sent their highly qualified commando team on a mission. You get promoted for leading from the front. And everyone wants to move up.
This is largely a trope for the TV shows, to keep the camera on the main characters. Every so often they remind each other (and the audience) that they're Not Supposed to Do This.
In reality these would be the nasty jerk COs who are trying to keep their officers from getting promoted (as they don't get to lead missions on their record), to keep the efficient (or ambitious) ones under their thumb.
Also it answers why captains and first officers are beaming down to hostile planets and leading commando missions. No one get promoted for saying they sent their highly qualified commando team on a mission. You get promoted for leading from the front. And everyone wants to move up.
This is largely a trope for the TV shows, to keep the camera on the main characters. Every so often they remind each other (and the audience) that they're Not Supposed to Do This.
In reality these would be the nasty jerk COs who are trying to keep their officers from getting promoted (as they don't get to lead missions on their record), to keep the efficient (or ambitious) ones under their thumb.
It's also just a plain god awful way to run a ship.
"Let's send the science officer and the chief of security into an unknown situation because they want promotions" is really bad logic. Spock would be ashamed. If they died the entire ship would be put in a tight spot. Heaven forbid you lose you chief medical officer, chief engineer, or captain in an off-ship hike they didn't need to go on. Most of the shows post-TNG itself though do make efforts to show that the main characters aren't the only ones who go on these missions. They're just the ones who go on the missions the episodes tend to be about. Away teams featuring red shirt characters are frequent in the background of Voyager for example, and it happens a couple times in late TNG.
It's obviously a narrative element and I'm not going to criticize it outside of being factitious, but Star Trek does not need additional stupid explanations justifying narrative conventions.
Also it answers why captains and first officers are beaming down to hostile planets and leading commando missions. No one get promoted for saying they sent their highly qualified commando team on a mission. You get promoted for leading from the front. And everyone wants to move up.
This is largely a trope for the TV shows, to keep the camera on the main characters. Every so often they remind each other (and the audience) that they're Not Supposed to Do This.
In reality these would be the nasty jerk COs who are trying to keep their officers from getting promoted (as they don't get to lead missions on their record), to keep the efficient (or ambitious) ones under their thumb.
It's also just a plain god awful way to run a ship.
"Let's send the science officer and the chief of security into an unknown situation because they want promotions" is really bad logic. Spock would be ashamed. If they died the entire ship would be put in a tight spot. Heaven forbid you lose you chief medical officer, chief engineer, or captain in an off-ship hike they didn't need to go on. Most of the shows post-TNG itself though do make efforts to show that the main characters aren't the only ones who go on these missions. They're just the ones who go on the missions the episodes tend to be about. Away teams featuring red shirt characters are frequent in the background of Voyager for example, and it happens a couple times in late TNG.
It's obviously a narrative element and I'm not going to criticize it outside of being factitious, but Star Trek does not need additional stupid explanations justifying narrative conventions.
I get what you mean, I often think about narrative decisions from a production standpoint (I doubt Riker would have turned down his own command three times in real life, but to keep an episodic show you have to keep your main cast around). Naturally I care about canon, character consistency, and good storytelling. But episodic television often has episodic canon. I figure that's why we haven't heard from the Douwd all that much.
It's kind of like: if you pick up a history book about a country in a part of the world that's relatively unfamiliar to you. You read the book and you remember the broad periods of history; Archaic Period, Classical Period, Industrial Period, and so on. You don't have to remember the exact name of every minister of finance, or even every prime minister, to understand the important events and react to them on an emotional level. So with Star Trek, we have at this point I think eight or nine different shows (TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, STD, STLD, STP, plus the CGI one for kids?), produced by dozens of people over ~60 years, and you get some major inconsistencies, but you're left with a lot of great characters, some of whom grow and some of whom stay the same but most of whom remain interesting, hundreds of stories full of great science fiction concepts. Smooth-forehead Klingons don't bother me in the least.
Watching First Contact for the first time in ages and it...
IS REALLY GOOD!
What I like is the characters act intelligently and decisively throughout, they see a threat and take measures to stop it.
Well except for that holodeck scene. WTF?
Oh and how the Enterprise goes from the Neutral Zone to Earth orbit in 12 seconds. Why not have the Enterprise ordered back to Earth to get a new captain to fight the Borg, raising the stakes accordingly. Then the new captain is killed as the Borg arrive early and everything goes as written. Ah well.
I also like how when our Wise Patriarch Father Figure dude starts acting irrationally (OK that might explain the holodeck) other characters call him out on it. And, when confronted, he stops, reflects and corrects himself. Awesome stuff, one of the best character moments in Trek.
The new cast, Lilly, Cochrane and the Borg Queen are all great.
Wait, why is Mariner a Mary Sue?
Because she is good at stuff?
She is like the opposite of a Mary Sue. She has like, several psychology problems that prevent her from being the best.
And it's a cartoon, a comedy one at that, her type of character is expected.
I also just watched Discovery, do they explain why klingons look so different at all?
Is it the virus nonsense again?
I think there was an out of show explanation of different houses or something? They look way less different in season two when they’re allowed to grow hair.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Wait, why is Mariner a Mary Sue?
Because she is good at stuff?
She is like the opposite of a Mary Sue. She has like, several psychology problems that prevent her from being the best.
And it's a cartoon, a comedy one at that, her type of character is expected.
She's just good at everything and faces no consequences other than Captain Mom yelling at her from time to time. You're right the holodeck episode added some depth to her and cast her in a different light.
But still she feels to me the sort of character the creators want us to like, she's so cool and knows everyone and never gets things wrong, but in reality is just annoying. So maybe Poochie is a better comparison. Not a total deal breaker, but she gets annoying, especially when I had to binge it before I left the US.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Watching First Contact for the first time in ages and it...
IS REALLY GOOD!
What I like is the characters act intelligently and decisively throughout, they see a threat and take measures to stop it.
Well except for that holodeck scene. WTF?
Oh and how the Enterprise goes from the Neutral Zone to Earth orbit in 12 seconds. Why not have the Enterprise ordered back to Earth to get a new captain to fight the Borg, raising the stakes accordingly. Then the new captain is killed as the Borg arrive early and everything goes as written. Ah well.
I also like how when our Wise Patriarch Father Figure dude starts acting irrationally (OK that might explain the holodeck) other characters call him out on it. And, when confronted, he stops, reflects and corrects himself. Awesome stuff, one of the best character moments in Trek.
The new cast, Lilly, Cochrane and the Borg Queen are all great.
Best or second best Trek film.
What the heck happened with the other TNG films?
What happened? They denied Patrick Stewart juicy scenes to really bring to life (Lily’s “k, Ahab” scene is frankly superb.) And it also built more on Picard’s PTSD. he truly hates The Borg. There are many sci-fi tropes about personal violation, but this one is a doozy. Forcibly assimilated, somewhat still conscious, and his knowledge used to kill thousands.
Good point, First Contact sort of recognizes that, whatever their merits in TV, the rest of the cast really can't carry a film while Stewart and Spinner can.
Nemesis also made it the Picard and Data show but never quite gelled...
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Watching First Contact for the first time in ages and it...
IS REALLY GOOD!
What I like is the characters act intelligently and decisively throughout, they see a threat and take measures to stop it.
Best or second best Trek film.
What the heck happened with the other TNG films?
It's awesome isn't it, definitely best opening scene of a Trek film. Possibly the best Trek film (would put it up there with 2 and 6), certainly with the TNG crew.
Not sure what happened with the others - Number 10 Nemesis broke the 'evens good, odds bad' rule of the Trek films didn't it. I did watch it again recently to see if maybe I had been a bit too critical of it before, but it was still pretty poor.. Not sure why exactly but it just seemed to miss the mark.
Slipspace wrote:Discovery definitely seems to have improved since the first episode of this season. Episodes 2-4 felt a lot more like Star Trek and they seem to be giving the rest of the crew more screen time, which has already helped make the show better and more balanced.
I like the direction they're going with the fragile mental/emotional state of the crew and the scene in the last episode at the dinner was really well done.
Agree 100%. These are the first episodes that have felt like Star Trek I think since Discovery was released, am really enjoying them.
I'm now wondering where the Federation are going to be based, I have a few ideas that it's going to be somewhere Important.
Bajor and DS9?
Khitomer?
K-7?
you're missing an obvious one.
Quonos.
If you want to hit the discovery with a serious WTF moment.... that'd be how to do it.
That's my bet as well. The only question is have the Klingons adapted Federation ideals or corrupted them?
So far this season has at least been a bit interesting. I actually want to see what all of our favorite races have been up to since the Apocalypse. I believe this season was actually what Kurtzman wanted this new Trek to be in the first place but it was rejected for being too dark. Having the show jump 1,000 years into the future and introducing "The Burn" gave a good excuse to go with the original premise. It could be fun to see The Discovery put The Federation back together again. At least there's some point to the show now.
I wonder if they'll ever get through an episode without a gun fight or Kung Fu move ever gain? This last episode would have been a perfect candidate but alas even the planet Trill requires two people to get shot and some Kung Fu fighting. At least they actually spent a significant part of the episode developing characters not named Burnham and even more surprisingly in the total absence of Burnham.
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Kid_Kyoto wrote: Watching First Contact for the first time in ages and it...
IS REALLY GOOD!
What I like is the characters act intelligently and decisively throughout, they see a threat and take measures to stop it.
Well except for that holodeck scene. WTF?
Oh and how the Enterprise goes from the Neutral Zone to Earth orbit in 12 seconds. Why not have the Enterprise ordered back to Earth to get a new captain to fight the Borg, raising the stakes accordingly. Then the new captain is killed as the Borg arrive early and everything goes as written. Ah well.
I also like how when our Wise Patriarch Father Figure dude starts acting irrationally (OK that might explain the holodeck) other characters call him out on it. And, when confronted, he stops, reflects and corrects himself. Awesome stuff, one of the best character moments in Trek.
The new cast, Lilly, Cochrane and the Borg Queen are all great.
Best or second best Trek film.
What the heck happened with the other TNG films?
Agreed. First Contact is my favorite ST Movie and just solid overall with many great scenes. A few pages back people where giving Worf a lot of love. One of my favorite Worf moments is in First Contact when Picard is just demeaning him in front of the entire crew because he won't lead a suicide charge against in hand to hand combat again the Borg and calls him a coward. Worf says if Picard were any other man Worf would kill him right then and there for that insult. There's a lot to unpack there. I believe what Worf is saying but also clearly...Worf's feeling have been hurt... but also Picard is hurting too from PTSD.
I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.
pgmason wrote: I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.
This is how I felt.
In my head canon the “Borg Queen” is just an aberration caused by Hugh or some other species’ attempt to sabotage the collective. The longer the Borg Queen exists, the ...how shall I put this? ...the less dangerous the Borg become. By the end of Voyager, they were basically Pakleds with a higher starting tech base.
pgmason wrote: I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.
This is how I felt.
In my head canon the “Borg Queen” is just an aberration caused by Hugh or some other species’ attempt to sabotage the collective. The longer the Borg Queen exists, the ...how shall I put this? ...the less dangerous the Borg become. By the end of Voyager, they were basically Pakleds with a higher starting tech base.
pgmason wrote: I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.
This is how I felt.
In my head canon the “Borg Queen” is just an aberration caused by Hugh or some other species’ attempt to sabotage the collective. The longer the Borg Queen exists, the ...how shall I put this? ...the less dangerous the Borg become. By the end of Voyager, they were basically Pakleds with a higher starting tech base.
Kinda see where people are coming from, but for me it’s a pleasant call back to the original concept where the Borgs were insectile, and summoned by those critters that Picard took care of on Earth.
And a Hive does suit a Queen. Though they should’ve left her ded, rather than butcher the Borg fully in Voyager.
I think the introduction of a Borg Queen did damage the collectivist background of the Borg somewhat, it made them more familiar and knowable and therefore less interesting.
However from a TV standpoint, I can understand why they wanted a villain for the heroes to interact with, to explain the Borgs motivations etc.
The problem with the other NTG films as I can see is that they got hooked on the whole Data and Picard relationship. The result is the rest of the cast starts stepping back in importance; they step forward; but for fans of the series we don't actually see anything new. If anything Data is actually quite bland in his quest for humanity compared to events we see in the TV series. Even first season was far more bold with his relationship with Tasha.
In the end I also think they just didn't know how to make an epic story for the cinema so we got extended TV series style episodes that retold mostly old ground. They didn't try and push somewhere new or bold and the events are mostly quite modest. Even the Romulan war story ark basically boils down to two ships fighting it out; no fleets, no governments; no real political or military pressure or build up. Just one flagship against another. They even broke immersion a little by making the Romulan ship an actual warship to the extreme It had more weapons than a Borg Cube; flights of fighters and a world destroyer weapon. It was a super doom ship - and they had one.
In the end these personal struggle stories wound up being very small scale in impact; focusing far too much on Picards demons; relationships with Data and almost excluding the rest of the crew. You got the sense that the rest of the crew was thinking and moving on to other ships and adventures and that we were left with the two who were going to remain on the Enterprise.
I also like how when our Wise Patriarch Father Figure dude starts acting irrationally (OK that might explain the holodeck) other characters call him out on it. And, when confronted, he stops, reflects and corrects himself. Awesome stuff, one of the best character moments in Trek.
ONly issue I had with that scene was IMO that should have been Bev. Crusher having that talk/saying that to him.
Kroem wrote: I think the introduction of a Borg Queen did damage the collectivist background of the Borg somewhat, it made them more familiar and knowable and therefore less interesting.
However from a TV standpoint, I can understand why they wanted a villain for the heroes to interact with, to explain the Borgs motivations etc.
My Theory is that the Borg Queen was a result of the Borgs constant adapting. That as they continued to fight and get thier ass kicked by the federation, they adapted by creating an individual that can have creative solutions to problems.
However it came with the problem of they now have an infalliable all powerful leader....that can make disaterous mistakes(Compared the collective, which was much more relentless and methodical)
That was why the Borg where so much less of a problem in voyager, they where suffering from that adaptation horribly, but they cannot fall back from an adaptation.
Also i made it to S2 of discovery. Does the show ever get past this obsession with Micheal? IT really truly feels like she is the only main character, and other stories are just there to distract. It doesnt feel like other Treks where its an ensemble, but with the captain as a big focus. This feels like only the Science Officer is the focus. Kinda lame when Micheal isnt the great of a chracter and feeels like a fan fic insert who is the never talked about sister of Spock is kinda lame.
Now also, im not one to fuss over prequels having technology that looks different from the original. It comes with the territory of designs changing and what we want to see. I can deal with discovery haveing uniforms that are different, I can deal with the Holodeck even though it is said in TNG it is new technology(My theory is that the one Ash and Lorca used where nothing more than a very advanced video game with rudimentary AI compared to the ones in TNG)
But the stupid reason they gave that the enterprise doesnt have Hologram communication? Really?
Overread wrote: The problem with the other NTG films as I can see is that they got hooked on the whole Data and Picard relationship. The result is the rest of the cast starts stepping back in importance; they step forward; but for fans of the series we don't actually see anything new. If anything Data is actually quite bland in his quest for humanity compared to events we see in the TV series. Even first season was far more bold with his relationship with Tasha.
In the end I also think they just didn't know how to make an epic story for the cinema so we got extended TV series style episodes that retold mostly old ground. They didn't try and push somewhere new or bold and the events are mostly quite modest. Even the Romulan war story ark basically boils down to two ships fighting it out; no fleets, no governments; no real political or military pressure or build up. Just one flagship against another. They even broke immersion a little by making the Romulan ship an actual warship to the extreme It had more weapons than a Borg Cube; flights of fighters and a world destroyer weapon. It was a super doom ship - and they had one.
In the end these personal struggle stories wound up being very small scale in impact; focusing far too much on Picards demons; relationships with Data and almost excluding the rest of the crew. You got the sense that the rest of the crew was thinking and moving on to other ships and adventures and that we were left with the two who were going to remain on the Enterprise.
The problem with the Picard/Data relationship in the movies was that they didn't have that relationship in the show. Geordi and Data were buddies, not Picard and Data. One of the biggest problems with TNG is that the crew stayed the same across all 7 seasons. In a military organization there would be promotions and reassignments. That would make it difficult to keep the same people on the same ship for 7 years, let alone a few years worth of movies too. Riker turned down how many promotions to stay on the Enterprise?
Can someone PLEASe explain the ending of s2 to me?
Why did they just not go back in time and yknow, stop Control from being made?
Why, when they confirmed that control was gone a nuetralized, did they have to still go forward in time?
Why do they not ever have to talk about it(Beyond the lamest reason for spock to never mention he has a sister)
And finally, DID NO ONE WRITE DOWN THE SCHEMATICS TO THE SPORE DRIVE
Atleast with Enterprise, it was a prequel so far before, it didnt intefere much with continuity.
Does S3 get better and does Micheal finally start taking back seat? Like seroisly, I hate to use this phrase, but she really in a Mary Sue. The entire Universe revolves around her. When we saw the crew say their good buys.....it didnt mean anything because we didnt get to know anyone beyond Tilly. And Tillies goodbye only meant something if you watched the Shorts. When Airam died it didnt matter because she was a drone until that episode. Only Saru mattered, for 1 episode.
Does it get better?
It's not fixed, by any means, but at least it's not at the same ludicrous levels as S2.
Burnham is the superstar, but it's not like she is the Second Coming all of the time. Characters that you don't know anything about and don't care about still can get written out with an overly emotional farewell.
Yeah, you're not going to see me arguing about the whole S2 time travel business - what a stupidly convoluted mess that was. How they didn't paradox everyone out of existence is a mystery.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Can someone PLEASe explain the ending of s2 to me?
Why did they just not go back in time and yknow, stop Control from being made?
Why, when they confirmed that control was gone a nuetralized, did they have to still go forward in time?
Why do they not ever have to talk about it(Beyond the lamest reason for spock to never mention he has a sister)
And finally, DID NO ONE WRITE DOWN THE SCHEMATICS TO THE SPORE DRIVE
Atleast with Enterprise, it was a prequel so far before, it didnt intefere much with continuity.
Does S3 get better and does Micheal finally start taking back seat? Like seroisly, I hate to use this phrase, but she really in a Mary Sue. The entire Universe revolves around her. When we saw the crew say their good buys.....it didnt mean anything because we didnt get to know anyone beyond Tilly. And Tillies goodbye only meant something if you watched the Shorts. When Airam died it didnt matter because she was a drone until that episode. Only Saru mattered, for 1 episode.
Does it get better?
Season 3 seems to be a little better so far. Not perfect by any means, but they seem to be making more of an effort to include more of the crew and less of Burnham. If they keep going in that direction I think the show is looking really good.
The time travel/Control thing doesn't really make a lot of sense. I think the idea seemed to be that once the Sphere data is discovered the creation of Control (or a similar entity) is inevitable as long as the data exists. The data will not allow itself to be destroyed so they decide to remove it from the timeline by jumping forward. Most of this makes no sense. If the data itself is sentient to the point of being self-preserving and powerful enough to prevent its own destruction while also being benevolent how would it allow itself to fall into the wrong hands and lead to the destruction of all life? Why are they so confident it's only the sphere data that could lead to this inevitable future? How does shifting it forward in time help prevent this apocalyptic future rather than just shifting it forward in time?
The whole time travel plot was just a way for them to write themselves out of the corner they put themselves in by setting Discovery in the same timeframe as TOS while also needlessly intertwining the Enterprise and Discovery stories. They could have just had the confidence in their own idea that it didn't need to be so closely linked to any existing Trek, then all they needed to do was write an interesting story about why the spore drive failed and everything would have fit seamlessly together without having all this convoluted mess of a story to explain everything away.
Anybody else think this was significant, or just fan service:
Spoiler:
Voyager-J being in the fleet - considering Janeway's cavalier attitude to the Temporal Prime Directive and fan theories of Voyager itself starting the Temporal Cold War,and the references in Discovery to Temporal Wars and ban on time travel, do we think it's significant that it's still there in the fleet? Or was it just a nice nod to the other series nd purely there because it's cool?
Voyager-J being in the fleet - considering Janeway's cavalier attitude to the Temporal Prime Directive and fan theories of Voyager itself starting the Temporal Cold War,and the references in Discovery to Temporal Wars and ban on time travel, do we think it's significant that it's still there in the fleet? Or was it just a nice nod to the other series nd purely there because it's cool?
Probably just fan service. They needed some recognisable ship in the fleet but probably wanted to (wisely) steer clear of Enterprise. They did mention the Constitution though, which presumably would be a 30th century version of the Constitution class.
Overread wrote: The problem with the other NTG films as I can see is that they got hooked on the whole Data and Picard relationship. The result is the rest of the cast starts stepping back in importance; they step forward; but for fans of the series we don't actually see anything new. If anything Data is actually quite bland in his quest for humanity compared to events we see in the TV series. Even first season was far more bold with his relationship with Tasha.
In the end I also think they just didn't know how to make an epic story for the cinema so we got extended TV series style episodes that retold mostly old ground. They didn't try and push somewhere new or bold and the events are mostly quite modest. Even the Romulan war story ark basically boils down to two ships fighting it out; no fleets, no governments; no real political or military pressure or build up. Just one flagship against another. They even broke immersion a little by making the Romulan ship an actual warship to the extreme It had more weapons than a Borg Cube; flights of fighters and a world destroyer weapon. It was a super doom ship - and they had one.
In the end these personal struggle stories wound up being very small scale in impact; focusing far too much on Picards demons; relationships with Data and almost excluding the rest of the crew. You got the sense that the rest of the crew was thinking and moving on to other ships and adventures and that we were left with the two who were going to remain on the Enterprise.
The problem with the Picard/Data relationship in the movies was that they didn't have that relationship in the show. Geordi and Data were buddies, not Picard and Data. One of the biggest problems with TNG is that the crew stayed the same across all 7 seasons. In a military organization there would be promotions and reassignments. That would make it difficult to keep the same people on the same ship for 7 years, let alone a few years worth of movies too. Riker turned down how many promotions to stay on the Enterprise?
I can see Picard having a somewhat more fatherly style relationship with Data due to Data both being a skilled crew member, but also a, at times, almost childlike learning android. I think the real issue isn't that they pushed a closer relationship through the films, but rather that it rose to dominate the films more and more. As a result the other crew were more and more pushed to the side of the story.
As for promotions I don't see that as an issue in the series to the films. First up we do see several lower members moving up. I believe Worf and Data both change ranks through the series and we did see Wesley move up until he went on his Galactic Student Gap "year". Otherwise the rest of the crew we regularly deal with are basically working in upper ranks in key positions on the flagship of the Federation. They basically are at the top of their game. So there isn't really all that much room for them to move around. 7 years isn't a huge amount of time when you reach the top; even Ricker holds his position for perhaps as long as, say, a deputy head at a school might hold until he moves to another school to replace a head there.
Character job mobility can be an issue in many series that get very long, I think Enterprise did it well in terms of the fact that it was the top position for most so moving on wasn't expected. Meanwhile DS9 achieved a more "Real" feeling by introducing two long term child characters who we see mature and rise up through different life roles. They mask the fact that the rest of the staff were basically set in their roles, even though they weren't near the top for any of them (heck first season half the top don't even want their positions - Sisko and Kira certainly didn't really want to be there at the start). We also get Worf and O'Brian both move in.
That said DS9 had a very different approach and was more bold in allowing its focus to branch out away from the captains chair to the point where not seeing Sisko for an episode doesn't feel wrong.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: It's an alternate timeline. Once I decided that I felt much, much better.
In the real timeline the Discovery exploded the first time they tried that spore drive thing and no one ever mentioned it again.
Except the issues are still there. Spock still has a sister that was never mentioned, there was still a klingon conflict 10 years before TOS. The problem is, discovery is fanfiction, pure and simple. And the spore drive was not a bad idea, even for a prequel, but it needed a good reason why it was never used going forward. Most likely being, they could never find another Tardigrade, and starfleet is Iffy on the idea of making genetically engineered Navigator races to power their ships.
Spock still has a sister that was never mentioned,
that in itself isn't a big deal. Spock has ALWAYS been tight lipped about his family. case in point, it wasn't until Surek and Amanda beamed onto the Enterprise that Spock mentioned "ohh yeah these are my parents"
Also, as much as I'm loath to even mention trek V, sybok was his half brother that likewise was never mentioned "until he came up" so Burnham not being mentioned ever by Spock is something I can accept.
So i made it to now and im kinda feeling it. Micheal is still prominant, but i dont think she is the dirving force of the story like that last two seasons. I wasnt feeling the "Post Apocalyptic" vibe of the season, where it seemed everyone was out for themselves, it kinda went against Star Trek and its hope for the future ideals. But then we saw the federation, and they where working to help refugees, even in the Federations weakened state. That, no matter how bad things got, the hope and outreach was still there. Makes me very happy.
Definitely agree they’ve eased off on relying on Burnham.
Given someone referred to her as a “responsibility hoarder” in one episode, I do suspect that’s a move made in response to criticism that she was overshadowing everyone else somewhat.
Well I don't know. Even in the last episode the security officer went on the away mission because she was the same species as the race on the vault ship. Like literally the main reason she's there is for her cultural sensitivity to the people they are meeting. Then when her big moment comes up to use this said cultural knowledge...it doesn't work and then for some reason it must be Burnham again. Only Burnham can get through.
The for some reason that officer has to "give up her career" at the end. Like why wouldn't that just be considered a long term assignment? They said it would be about 5 months. Surely, not that long in the post dilithium era. Anyways, whateves at least Burnham saved the day again.
Last episode was OK. Would have liked a lot more focus on the Discovery itself, though as the storyline on the junkyard planet seemed to drag itself out a bit too much. Anyone else getting a Tyler vibe from Georgiou's weird...whatever the hell it is that's happening to her? Hopefully it's something distinct from season 1's plot.
Also, seems like Burnham got off way too lightly for what was essentially gross insubordination and dereliction of duty. Not that I expected otherwise.
I wonder who the new first officer will be. They're kind of short on characters. Tilly's an Ensign, Stamets is needed for the jump drive and that leaves who?
The abrasive engineer woman? The other black guy? Someone else whose name I can't remember? Not much of a bench ATM.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I wonder who the new first officer will be. They're kind of short on characters. Tilly's an Ensign, Stamets is needed for the jump drive and that leaves who?
The abrasive engineer woman? The other black guy? Someone else whose name I can't remember? Not much of a bench ATM.
Lieutenant Nilsson (the blond non-cyborg) seems to be left in-charge most often - unless they transfer someone from HQ.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I wonder who the new first officer will be. They're kind of short on characters. Tilly's an Ensign, Stamets is needed for the jump drive and that leaves who?
The abrasive engineer woman? The other black guy? Someone else whose name I can't remember? Not much of a bench ATM.
Lieutenant Nilsson (the blond non-cyborg) seems to be left in-charge most often - unless they transfer someone from HQ.
Wow, I would not be able to pick her out of a line up.
I feel like introducing a new character from the federation as XO would be a good move, allowing exposition when needed and drama/tension by being a Spock/Data "regulations" type.
I've got to admit, I've only learned most characters names this season, since the focus has moved away from Burnham this month.
For Georgieu, it kind of looks like to me that with the dialogue about the Mirror Universe moving away from theirs, that she might be almost merging with her main universe self.
I'm irked by the idea that the Discovery crew is at all useful 1000 years in the future. I try to imagine the most advanced, bested ocean crew from the year 1020 being able to do anything in 2020. Of course maybe technology stagnated/plateaued so it's more like a crew from 20AD ending up in 1020AD. Which now that I think about it would be a cool story.
I just hope they can resist the urge to reveal that 32nd century Federation is eating babies or is actually the Terran Empire or whatever...
Burham is really having trouble letting go of "it's all about ME!", isn't she? When Saru kicks her off the Number One spot, she has the nerve to ask if he's sure he's not making a mistake.
I can see her leaving Disco permanently. Not the show, the ship. Her actions are no longer consistent with remaining a Starfleet officer.
Graphite wrote:Burham is really having trouble letting go of "it's all about ME!", isn't she? When Saru kicks her off the Number One spot, she has the nerve to ask if he's sure he's not making a mistake.
I may have misheard, but didn't she tell Saru that he was doing the right thing?
Compel wrote:
For Georgieu, it kind of looks like to me that with the dialogue about the Mirror Universe moving away from theirs, that she might be almost merging with her main universe self.
Ah that's an interesting idea, I wonder if you might be on to something there.
I have to say I love Georgieu, gets some really good lines and sequences and you're just waiting to see who she will kick the crap out of or vaporise next. Sure must be a fun character for Michelle Yeoh to play.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I wonder who the new first officer will be. They're kind of short on characters. Tilly's an Ensign, Stamets is needed for the jump drive and that leaves who?
The abrasive engineer woman? The other black guy? Someone else whose name I can't remember? Not much of a bench ATM.
Lieutenant Nilsson (the blond non-cyborg) seems to be left in-charge most often - unless they transfer someone from HQ.
OK now I know who she is, same actress as the cyborg but now a new role sans make up.
So she moves up my list of possibles, if they liked the actress enough to keep around after killing her they might want to give her a bigger role.
For 2 or 3 weeks, till Burnham is first officer again.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I wonder who the new first officer will be. They're kind of short on characters. Tilly's an Ensign, Stamets is needed for the jump drive and that leaves who?
The abrasive engineer woman? The other black guy? Someone else whose name I can't remember? Not much of a bench ATM.
Lieutenant Nilsson (the blond non-cyborg) seems to be left in-charge most often - unless they transfer someone from HQ.
She does seem to 3rd in command. Is she actually just the cyborg lady without the makeup?
I think you said this a few pages ago, Mad Doc, but third season seems to be the sweet spot for a lot of Trek. Just finished Season 3 of Enterprise and was really impressed with the kinds of stories they chose to tell. Perhaps Discovery is going in the same direction! I'm going to sit back a bit before committing, mostly because there's still plenty of pre-2009 Trek for me to get through, but I'm glad to hear that people seem to think it's turning around (minus the present lukewarm reviews of the latest episode).
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I'm irked by the idea that the Discovery crew is at all useful 1000 years in the future. I try to imagine the most advanced, bested ocean crew from the year 1020 being able to do anything in 2020. Of course maybe technology stagnated/plateaued so it's more like a crew from 20AD ending up in 1020AD. Which now that I think about it would be a cool story.
I just hope they can resist the urge to reveal that 32nd century Federation is eating babies or is actually the Terran Empire or whatever...
Hrm, no Klingons or Romulans so far.
Well, if they're sailing a Viking longship across the Atlantic then you do want the 1000AD crew of Vikings. Not the crack crew of the current USS Enterprise.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I'm irked by the idea that the Discovery crew is at all useful 1000 years in the future. I try to imagine the most advanced, bested ocean crew from the year 1020 being able to do anything in 2020. Of course maybe technology stagnated/plateaued so it's more like a crew from 20AD ending up in 1020AD. Which now that I think about it would be a cool story.
This is bugging me as well - I'd expect a lot more tech advancement and possible human evolution than what's been seen so far. Perhaps if The Burn had been further back in time...
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I'm irked by the idea that the Discovery crew is at all useful 1000 years in the future. I try to imagine the most advanced, bested ocean crew from the year 1020 being able to do anything in 2020. Of course maybe technology stagnated/plateaued so it's more like a crew from 20AD ending up in 1020AD. Which now that I think about it would be a cool story.
This is bugging me as well - I'd expect a lot more tech advancement and possible human evolution than what's been seen so far. Perhaps if The Burn had been further back in time...
1000 years is nothing from an evolutionary standpoint. Remember that stuff like the Pyramids were ancient by the time that Rome was ruling over the Mediterranean. In all that time we just got a bit taller and that is due to nutritional advancements.
chromedog wrote: I just became acquainted with the concept of their being "another" Riker.
Seems there's more than a few TNG episodes I haven't seen.
Spoiler:
I liked that the episode didn't take the easy way out; it would have been easy to kill him off at the end and "solve" the problem that way, but that doesn't feel very Star Trek. Plus that gave us the episode of DS9, "Defiant," which is one of my favorites.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I'm irked by the idea that the Discovery crew is at all useful 1000 years in the future. I try to imagine the most advanced, bested ocean crew from the year 1020 being able to do anything in 2020. Of course maybe technology stagnated/plateaued so it's more like a crew from 20AD ending up in 1020AD. Which now that I think about it would be a cool story.
This is bugging me as well - I'd expect a lot more tech advancement and possible human evolution than what's been seen so far. Perhaps if The Burn had been further back in time...
1000 years is nothing from an evolutionary standpoint. Remember that stuff like the Pyramids were ancient by the time that Rome was ruling over the Mediterranean. In all that time we just got a bit taller and that is due to nutritional advancements.
True. I'm not sure what I was expecting - they're not going to look cyberpunk or anything like that (and humans were basically the same in 3001: The Final Odyssey as well).
Star Trek has a long-established trope of human evolving into psychic supermen or being of pure energy or whatever. In addition to genetic tinkering as a science.
Heck compare people 200 years ago to today, nutrition, medicine, cosmetic procedures have made vast visible differences. In some countries it can even be seen in just 3 generations.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Star Trek has a long-established trope of human evolving into psychic supermen or being of pure energy or whatever. In addition to genetic tinkering as a science.
Heck compare people 200 years ago to today, nutrition, medicine, cosmetic procedures have made vast visible differences. In some countries it can even be seen in just 3 generations.
I have given up of Star Trek Worships Burnham but isn't this after a major "bad" event so its more like comparing people from modern day with thos in Fallout or Dark Ages Europe with the height of the Roman Empire?
We haven’t talked to them in over a century, only Michael Burnam specifically can help us reestablish contact. And of course implying credit to Michael for Spock being an awesome dude.
Also I wish I had given voice to my bet on the new first officer because I was right. I thought it was too dumb, but this is where we are.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Star Trek has a long-established trope of human evolving into psychic supermen or being of pure energy or whatever. In addition to genetic tinkering as a science.
Heck compare people 200 years ago to today, nutrition, medicine, cosmetic procedures have made vast visible differences. In some countries it can even be seen in just 3 generations.
Yet as inevitable globalisation continues, we’re seeing ever greater standardisation.
Few hundred years ago, depending on where you were, your mode of transport might be yer feets, a rickshaw, horse, elephant, camel etc. Now, it’s cars driven by internal combustion engines etc.
Whilst there’ll always be local variations, technology is standardising in how it actually works. That’s part and parcel of the world becoming smaller.
Put that on a Galactic scale, and I suspect much the same would be evident, given time.
Whilst there’ll always be local variations, technology is standardising in how it actually works. That’s part and parcel of the world becoming smaller.
Put that on a Galactic scale, and I suspect much the same would be evident, given time.
Which brings up a question that has long bugged me in the trek universe. . . So, sticking strictly with warp drive based cultures, I assume that the science is the same across the board. . . In engineering terms, wouldn't that ultimately lead to the possibility of putting say, the Defiant's warp reactor into a KDF Bird of Prey, and everything being hunky dory? As in. . . . Warp being warp, shouldn't anyone be able to use just about anyone else's hardware and still be able to successfully say, "engage"
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Which brings up a question that has long bugged me in the trek universe. . . So, sticking strictly with warp drive based cultures, I assume that the science is the same across the board. . . In engineering terms, wouldn't that ultimately lead to the possibility of putting say, the Defiant's warp reactor into a KDF Bird of Prey, and everything being hunky dory? As in. . . . Warp being warp, shouldn't anyone be able to use just about anyone else's hardware and still be able to successfully say, "engage"
Kind of? It depends on the other systems in the ship - technobabble like "EPS conduits" - you can drop some car engines into some different cars fine, but they won't go in others. Remember that Scotty (and the rest of them) could get a Bird of Prey running.
However, it's worth keeping in mind that I can't play a British DVD on an American DVD player.
Or the various legends about 'Imperial Measurement designed device meets Metric designed device.'
That's not to say you COULDN'T have an episode where a bunch of people are stranded and cobble a ship together out of spare parts from two other ships. But it's not exactly 'plug and play' or easy to do as standard.
It's also worth mentioning that the whole point of the Defiant was them literally plugging a Romulan cloaking device into the ship and it working.
However, it's worth keeping in mind that I can't play a British DVD on an American DVD player.
Or the various legends about 'Imperial Measurement designed device meets Metric designed device.'
That's not to say you COULDN'T have an episode where a bunch of people are stranded and cobble a ship together out of spare parts from two other ships. But it's not exactly 'plug and play' or easy to do as standard.
It's also worth mentioning that the whole point of the Defiant was them literally plugging a Romulan cloaking device into the ship and it working.
Ish.
Kinda.
Eventually.
Oh wait, we just lost power again.
Yeah, I think they use a lot of shortcuts just for the sake of moving the plot along, but there are enough mentions of incompatible tech to show that the writers are aware of the problem. DS9 had a lot of Cardassian tech that was incompatible with Federation power units for the first season or so, the aforementioned Scotty flying a BoP ("Repairing a ship is easy. Reading Klingon, that's harder."). There's the episode where the universal translator isn't working on a Gamma Quadrant species, in Enterprise Trip does some pretty lengthy exposition on how he's fixing an alien ship and how it's different from (pre-)Federation tech.
Keeps the plot moving along, shows how far humans have progressed that they can apply general scientific principles to understand alien technology, but enough examples of that translation being tricky or frustrating to help suspend disbelief.
Isn't there an episode of TNG where they find a crate of phasers that have been modified by Romulans, but it takes a whole episode's worth of tests to find out how and why?
If your ships work on similar principles, then you can work it out. The navigation controls? Just a matter of figuring out which buttons does what.
So where dilithium powered warp core etc? If you’re is AC, and the other ship AC, it’s gonna be easier than if the other ship is DC for merging technology.
But here on Earth, you can’t so readily swap a diesel for a petrol engine. It can be done, but other gubbins will need know-wots. That’s how I see the challenge O’Brien had on DS9.
Now, let’s breakdown say, Cars from the point of invention to now. At their most basic, they remaining the same. Engine, fuel, accelerator, brake, gears, steering. I could probably pile in a vintage car from the 20’s or 30’s and have a decent crack at driving it. Main difference I’m aware of would be remembering the choke, which the car I learned to drive in had.
Given the future Federation ships are all dilithium powered, the learning curve for Disco’s crew likely isn’t all that steep, especially as they have people to show them what’s what.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Soo, if the Romulans where a part of the federation before the burn.......why didnt they share their warp drive schematices that didnt use dilithium?
Same reason that the Klingons didn't hand over cloaking technology. Same reason the US didn't give the Soviet Union their atomic weapons research during WW2.
Just because you are allies now, doesn't mean you will remain so and if that happens you want to have some aces up your sleeve.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Soo, if the Romulans where a part of the federation before the burn.......why didnt they share their warp drive schematices that didnt use dilithium?
Same reason that the Klingons didn't hand over cloaking technology. Same reason the US didn't give the Soviet Union their atomic weapons research during WW2.
Just because you are allies now, doesn't mean you will remain so and if that happens you want to have some aces up your sleeve.
Actually the Romulans traded Cloaking tech to the Kingons or they would not have it
Same as China got tech from Russia during the early part of the Cold War.
However, it's worth keeping in mind that I can't play a British DVD on an American DVD player.
I can get British or American dvds playing fine in a Japanese player, though. Many players can. There's often a 4 digit code (using the controller) to "unlock" kiddy-mode.
It’s not like the Federation couldn’t figure out another method of warp travel. For goodness sake, Cochrane never had any dilithium crystals, either.
Dilithium is only used to make m/am conversion efficient. It is not the only power source on the Enterprise, let alone in the Federation. Warp travel is no complicated thing in universe; the Bajorans used primitive warp sails thousands of years ago. Canonically, some members of the Federation as of TNG have been traveling through space for more than 10,000 years, and if one includes the novelization of TMP as canon, there are some really crazy, long term spacefaring civilizations in the Federation.
The Bajoran lightship wasn’t inherently warp capable. I don’t think it was even faster than light given it was being pushed by solar currents on sails. The speed/distance it achieved was an unintended fluke of its design interacting with a tachyon eddy.
True. But it was still space worthy. And as we know, the Star Trek galaxy is riddled with wormholes, subspace eddies, and other phenomena that a post-dilithium Federation would understand how to exploit.
It’s weird because in the show it works, but the people who designed it said it wouldn’t. A ship of its size would take sails a mile wide to function. Also how did that thing break atmo or even land? It’s a cute hobby, but not anything one could take seriously.
Different topic. After watching an episode with the Breen the other day I got curious and googled it they’d ever shown what they looked like under the mask. Apparently it never has been disclosed exactly what they look like, beyond something shouted, possibly wolf like. However the people behind Discovery have said they’re interested in showing that and having unmasked Breen in their series.
Tangent. The same article that mentioned Discovery and Breen also showed Saru’s original design and man that face woulda been freaky to always have there.
In the novels, the Breen are a society of 5 or so species* who all wear the same encounter suits to prevent any kind of bias between members.
*This diversity likely started as a way to explain inconsistencies in the show, but later developed into a device to show the Breen as a mirror to the Federation’s ideals of inclusivity.
Well Reunification Part III (I see what you did there) was sure a perfect storm of stuff I hate.
Spoiler:
Bottle episode
Burnham Mary Sue stuff
No one thought of triangulation before? No one?
Tilly is first officer
Burnham's mom
Those Romulan ninja nuns, worst thing from Picard
Vulcan Romulan politics, almost as interesting as Klingon politics. Almost. Prequel timeline issues - Everyone's totally cool with learning Vulcans and Romulans are the same race, 10 years before it becomes common knowledge
I do wonder what kind of time keeping system federation ships use that they all keep the exact same time synchronized down to the millionth of a micro second.
AduroT wrote: I do wonder what kind of time keeping system federation ships use that they all keep the exact same time synchronized down to the millionth of a micro second.
Time beacons were mentioned in TNG - they used one (instantaneously) in "Cause and Effect" after breaking out of the time loop ("The beacon confirms that the Enterprise's chronometers are off by 17.4 days and Data resets them accordingly")
Likely old news for the folks watching the show in the thread but apparently they refitted the Discovery in the future and this video breaks down some of the changes. I'm just starting to watch this but just from the thumbnail it looks like an improvement (not hard to do admittedly IMO given the starting point).
I still don't actually like the design but at least I no longer actively dislike it either. I'd also have no problem with the fidget spinner/spore drive 900 years into the future if they had debuted it then as an alternative to the subspace destroying warp technology. No idea if the turboshaft roller coaster and clown car self replicating shuttle bay are still functioning though...
Well, I thoroughly enjoyed that episode and kinda weirdly didn't have any complaints with the episode.
I also didn't really feel too much of the Burnham mary sueness in it, if anything I felt it was more an episode of an entire planet calling Burnham out on her ****, before her coming to a self realisation, prompted by other people.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well Reunification Part III (I see what you did there) was sure a perfect storm of stuff I hate.
Spoiler:
Bottle episode
Burnham Mary Sue stuff
No one thought of triangulation before? No one?
Tilly is first officer
Burnham's mom
Those Romulan ninja nuns, worst thing from Picard
Vulcan Romulan politics, almost as interesting as Klingon politics. Almost. Prequel timeline issues - Everyone's totally cool with learning Vulcans and Romulans are the same race, 10 years before it becomes common knowledge
Just ug. Get on with it!
Any word on Picard Season 2?
Urghh god so its still the "Burnham and Tilly show" and Fk the rest.
I am really worried one or both of them will be excreted into Picard and ruin it - are they even doing a season 2 of Picard?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yeah i find it funny this show is touted for including several LGBTQ+ groups, yet none of them get a focused episode, like ever.
Because like alot of shows that claim to be inclusive they fail in number of ways:
1. They make a point of including them - their sexual orientation should be irrelvant in both the show and the setting and treated in that way.
2. They usually kill them off - so much that its pretty much now a meme
3. They are singled out as unique or unusual or something to be revealed.
Sci-fi and fantasy has often been slow at this and Trek has a awful track record with the most interesting character in this vein being Dax - strong and capable and whose gender was just another life experience - really well done.
If you want to see a gay couple done right in fantasy - watch The Old Guard.
Its the same with Tilly - oh look here is a fat character - wow isn't that great are we not awesome. No because she is unique in this and her physique makes no sense in the military role she has (IMO) and they make it so even wins races to show that hey being fat is really great - its a good thing. Have a wide range of body shapes by all means but not stupid tokenism.
Same with Burnham - ow wow we have a non white female character - isn't that awesome - look at us. And waste the opportunity.
If you want to see a non white, powerful female character with strengths AND flaws - look to Chrisjen Avasarala in the Expanse
I was able to watch the latest season with some sense of appreciation for where things seemed to be going; but nope, it's season 2 Space Jesus again, only this time we'll point fingers at her and accuse her of thinking that she's Space Jesus as if it's some sort of joke.
Spoiler:
The space nuns only just pop up in Picard and now Momma Burnham is one of them? Oh, come on...
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yeah i find it funny this show is touted for including several LGBTQ+ groups, yet none of them get a focused episode, like ever.
The problem with Disco is nobody gets a focused episode. In every Trek show since TOS they've been true ensembles. Yes, TNG focused a lot on Picard but many, many episodes gave the rest of the crew a chance to shine and that holds true for every Trek after that. We have entire episodes dedicated to other characters in every other Trek, to the point that there are multiple episodes that barely even feature the "main" character at all. Discovery has none of that, to the point that most people didn't even know the names of the bridge crew until this season. One of last season's main character moments fell completely flat because android lady was a complete non-character right up until they had to kill her off.
We now have the ridiculous scenario where the crew is so poorly developed they have to make an ensign the XO, which is stupid beyond belief. Literally every other bridge officer outranks her, along with likely over half the rest of the ship and we're supposed to believe she commands enough respect to operate as the first officer?
Sometimes in DS9 you started to forget who the heck Sisco was at times and he was the captain. If anything characters like Quark and Garrack easily rose to appear far more interesting in their own ways.
And yet the series never suffered for that, if anything it grew fantastic strength from having such a widely developed supporting cast. Especially when you then brought them all together in major events.
The Original Series mostly focused on the core three - Kirk, Spock and McCoy. You get snippets of the others, but they were always supporting and never a focus. However its formula was to basically be the same rough formula for every single episode.
We forget that TNG was quite a revolution in many ways; trying out long interconnected story arcs; having a focus on characters outside of the core; heck they even killed off a key bridge character in the first season.*
*And whilst that meant we got to see Worf move up into a command position, it was a shame we lost Tasha. We had to wait until DS9 before we got women taking on more typically considered "male" roles/attitudes in Kira and Dash. Which isn't saying that TNG women were weak, but many held quite traditional female roles (counsellor, doctor, mystical mystic/barkeep)
AduroT wrote: DS9 has maybe too much Quark I think, but not excessively so.
He fits in so well because he's at the most neutral focal point for so many of the characters, a bar in the middle of the station that everyone visits for food, drink, relaxation and chat and such. So its very easy to fit him in all the time even if its just for a few lines.
Interestingly when they did Ten Forward in TNG I get the feeling they might have liked to have done similar with that, but it never really matured that way. It got used a few times, but it was never as seamlessly used as in DS9 by the second season and beyond (once DS9 had found its own legs). It might have also been because Whoopy almost seemed like she was more of a guest* actress in the series or had reason not to be there for long periods or such. There's certainly a good few Ten Forward moments where she never appears, not even in passing serving at the bar. Of course that also played into the mystery around her character, because we really got very little development with her. A few key focus episodes, a dropped story path with her confrontation with Q; but after that we never really hear or see much of her until the Generations film. Even then it doesn't really answer many questions about her, its just another small part of her. I'm always surprised how the latter films focus so much on Data and Picard when Guinen is perhaps the last great mystery of TNG.
* a quick google suggests that over 7 seasons she only appeared in 29 episodes. For reference each season (barring 2) had 26 episodes.
AduroT wrote: DS9 has maybe too much Quark I think, but not excessively so.
He was always great on the station. Its when they started dragging him off to 'fix' the Ferengi/Ferenginar that it felt like a stretch.
It wasn't to his benefit, it wasn't even remotely his job or in his wheelhouse, and pretty much no one wanted him to do it, including himself.
As a not-particularly-successful barkeep/semi-criminal/criminal facilitator, he was great. As an unwilling social crusader, it was... odd.
And as the 'Magnificent Ferengi' episode showed, he knew a lot of nasty people that would have him, his brother and his mother quietly murdered, even if they did ultimately adopt some of the more profitable reforms.
We now have the ridiculous scenario where the crew is so poorly developed they have to make an ensign the XO, which is stupid beyond belief. Literally every other bridge officer outranks her, along with likely over half the rest of the ship and we're supposed to believe she commands enough respect to operate as the first officer?
The dumb thing, the truly dumb thing is... You are WRITERS, you control the vertical, you control the horizontal, if you want to move Tilly up you can set this up. Have her promoted in one episode, then kill another nameless officer and give her a temporary promotion, then have her demonstrate leadership skills, then make her first officer.
It's not quite as bad as Abrams having Kirk jump from court marshaled ensign to captain of the flagship in under an hour but it's pretty darn bad.
Unless of course Tilly's question about being promoted only because she's a yes woman pans out and she fails.
But that would probably lead to Burnham getting promoted back...
Some people use the excuse the Discovery decided to have a main character instead of being an ensemble. Which is fine.
The problem is, they chose a bad main character and, they never give you a break from them.
In Breaking Bad, we get plenty of diversions from Walter White and episodes not about him, in Star Wars Rebels, we get plenty of diversions from Ezra. the last episode that didnt have Micheal as a focus, was Sarues in S2.
People would be more than happy is discovery gave us a break from micheal.
I think the best argument agaisnt discovery I've seen was showing you a picture of long time people serving on the bridge and asking you who they where. no one knew because they wheren't developed AT ALL.
Their names are spoken so infrequently, that the only reason i know is that i pause alot on Amazon Prime.
Like I legit believe we have two characters(The Android Lady and lady with the breathing devices) where killed/abandoned was they had a Tasha Yar situation. Where they barely got any screentime, but had to be in tons of makeup just for their Bit Parts. So they wanted to leave.
Again we have a Trill symbiote in a human being haunted by their dead lover who is trans. HOW DOES THAT NOT GET ANY FOCUS BEYOND A "MAGICALLY SOLVED" b-plot.
Their names are spoken so infrequently, that the only reason i know is that i pause alot on Amazon Prime.
Like I legit believe we have two characters(The Android Lady and lady with the breathing devices) where killed/abandoned was they had a Tasha Yar situation. Where they barely got any screentime, but had to be in tons of makeup just for their Bit Parts. So they wanted to leave.
Again we have a Trill symbiote in a human being haunted by their dead lover who is trans. HOW DOES THAT NOT GET ANY FOCUS BEYOND A "MAGICALLY SOLVED" b-plot.
Well, honestly a lot of reasons.
- It sounds like a lot of nonsense situations stacked together. (And I seriously hope you don't mean 'actually haunted' in a star trek show.)
- 'Magical' nonsense solutions sound like the only way out for something that sounds so convoluted and unnecessary.
- Dead love interests of secondary characters are pretty much the worst form of representation imaginable (barring actual hatemongering). If that's an actual goal, never do this. Pre-sorting them as 'under the bus' is a lot worse than screen time/make up providing an impetus for actors to be written out of the show. This kind of thing is a step back to vanilla 80s shows that have a gay or black character turn up, but they never have a love interest or significant other for the handful of episodes they're on, no matter how much time passes.
Just make the characters normal parts of the show and people's lives.
I mean haunted literally,cause they are. Their lover is dead, but they see them.
And it was solved by just having a chat with stamets, ergo, magically solved.
and i agree, its bad representation. But they went with it, least they could do is explore it and all its implications, like they did with the culber/stamets.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: To change the subject I went on from First Contact to Star Trek 9: Insurrection...
Funny it's not bad, it's something else, just kind of mediocre and forgettable. The 1998 CGI for the space scenes doesn't help either.
Interesting that the first 1/3 of the film is, once again, the Picard and Data show.
I found it dull and a big let down after First Contact but friends who are bigger Trek fans liked it because it was just a long Next Gen epsiode with bigger effects.
It’s not a Literally haunting, so don’t say it is. Their dead lover was the previous host of the Symbiote they’re carrying. I didn’t think it was supposed to work this way? Yeah it’s not I don’t know why you can see me like this. And it’s not Resolved, they just didn’t talk about it this episode. I’m sure we’ll see more of them because this is their new Wesley.
AduroT wrote: It’s not a Literally haunting, so don’t say it is. Their dead lover was the previous host of the Symbiote they’re carrying. I didn’t think it was supposed to work this way? Yeah it’s not I don’t know why you can see me like this. And it’s not Resolved, they just didn’t talk about it this episode. I’m sure we’ll see more of them because this is their new Wesley.
DS9 introduced the Rite of Emergence -
Memory Alpha wrote:The Rite of Emergence was a Trill rite that was performed by a joined Trill to bring forth the personality and memories of a previous host. This personality can then be interacted with by the current host.
This rite was used in 2375 by Ezri Dax to bring forth Joran Dax to help her investigate a number of mysterious deaths on board Deep Space 9. (DS9: "Field of Fire")
The Rite of Emergence was very similar to the Trill zhian'tara ritual, except the zhian'tara telepathically used other people's bodies as vessels and the Rite of Emergence solely took place in the host's mind. (DS9: "Facets", "Field of Fire")
But it seems the Tal symbiont has forgotten what it is...
I haven’t gotten that far yet in my rewatching of the series to remember exactly how that worked with Joran. In Discovery right now the former host is just always there but only she can see or hear them. She actively carries out conversations with them out loud but others would only see and hear her half of it.
Also yeah, as mentioned previously Discovery has kind of forgotten a several things about Trill. They don’t have the records of Riker being a host, as they reference no non-Trill has ever been one before. They also said they had almost zero viable hosts left despite DS9 saying some half the population was capable of hosting. Also they got weirdly mystical with them. When they got in one of those water pools to talk to the other Symbiotes, their bodies literally vanished in the shallow water and they went to some weird mind place thing. It was kind of dumb.
To be fair I'm ok with mystical stuff in ST - if anything its something they've lost over the years - Vulcans in the Original series movies were brimming with mystical stuff.
I can also see one case of a human taking a Trill symbiote being forgotten in history; though if I recall there were also complications in that so its not a long term viable solution. So even if it was remembered its not a full success story.
Plus one of the big story points that arose mostly after Jadzia died was that the Trill do practice a lot of self policing on how many can take a symbiote. Basically their government lies to them about how many of them are compatible, leading the general population to believe that its a very rare thing, when its potentially very common. It's buried in the DS9 episodes.
As for her being able to see the previous host, that certainly did happen in DS9 with both hosts of Dax - Jadzia got a family reunion style situation and Ezrie went on a mad killer hunt with one. So it can happen and there are rites/ways to enable it so its potentially that if something "went wrong" then the host could well see more of the past lives than they should normally. Having a very tight connection (former lover) might well be a major influencing part.
In short it all sounds very possible if played out right.
Yeah, I definitely feel their invoking that Ezri episode as the source behind what's going on with Adira (hey, my first guess was Amira... That's pretty good for Disco names).
But they're adding in wibbliness because of the human factor and former love.
Slipspace wrote: We now have the ridiculous scenario where the crew is so poorly developed they have to make an ensign the XO, which is stupid beyond belief. Literally every other bridge officer outranks her, along with likely over half the rest of the ship and we're supposed to believe she commands enough respect to operate as the first officer?
There's an element that they're underdeveloped, but Discovery also seems to have a low-ranking crew - looking at Memory Alpha the bridge crew are all Ensigns or Lieutenant junior grade except for Lieutenant Nilsson. Commander Nhan left and Lieutenant Commander Airiam died. Jett Reno is a Commander and Paul Stamets & Hugh Culber are Lieutenant Commanders, but they're not bridge officers.
I know the government lies about the number of Trill who can be hosts, but it was the government telling Disco they had like none left and this non-Trill viable host was something to look into. If you lie to your people to not let them know how many can be hosts so they don’t start wars over them, you definitely don’t want anyone to know that non-Trill can host them. You would be telling your people there was always just a healthy number more than is required.
I think the main thing about Insurrection was how timid its ambition was.
The Space Village on Planet Hacky Sack looked like every other TNG Space Village/suburban outlet mall. The immortal villagers looked like every Hollywood extra. Their incredible physical skills were demonstrated by playing Hacky Sack. Their planet looked just like the Sierra Nevada, which we've all seen a million times.
I've seen more impressive displays in Bollywood dance numbers.
(Really I just wanted to see Kashmir Main)
The romance between Picard and um... Village Lady just felt forced, and poor Beverly was RIGHT THERE. But Riker and Deana's story was done so well maybe they didn't want to copy it.
Watched it for the first time in ages a few weeks back, and quite enjoyed it.
Main irk for me is Janeway being promoted to Admiral, as I really, really, really dislike her character. And I bet poor old Harry Kim remained an ensign.
I never disliked Janeway but she did sort of feel a touch more "head mistress" than "captain". That said I think Voyager had some issues in that they sort of wanted a big overarching story, but at the same time wanted lots of independent stories that didn't have to connect together save that "Voyager got a bit closer to home" or " Voyager sacrificed distance home to save someone or something or otherwise do good" I think after the massive story focus of the last DS9 series Voyager felt weaker because we'd seen so much of ST "mature" along certain lines and then Voyager was a trip back to an older model of storytelling for ST.
Overread wrote: I never disliked Janeway but she did sort of feel a touch more "head mistress" than "captain". That said I think Voyager had some issues in that they sort of wanted a big overarching story, but at the same time wanted lots of independent stories that didn't have to connect together save that "Voyager got a bit closer to home" or " Voyager sacrificed distance home to save someone or something or otherwise do good" I think after the massive story focus of the last DS9 series Voyager felt weaker because we'd seen so much of ST "mature" along certain lines and then Voyager was a trip back to an older model of storytelling for ST.
Someone put their finger on my dislike for her, and I think it was in this very thread.
In short, Janeway wasn’t a consistent character in the way her contemporaries were.
Picard and Sisko were pretty consistent. Sometimes they didn’t win, and they had to lump it. That was pretty cool, and character building (especially Sisko with his conflicting loyalties to the badge and the prophets).
But Janeway’s reactions always felt fitted to that episode’s narrative. And as ever when discussing Voyager, I want to make clear I am not criticising the actual cast members. But it’s so full of dubious plots and shonky writing it’s just not my bag.
Except you, Neelix and Kes. You were completely awful. Especially you, Neelix. Dating a child. Dirty.
Nemesis has a weird little spot in my heart. I saw it for my birthday when I was a young'un.
It has some truly atrocious stuff in it (Shinzon mindraping Troi, anyone?) but to counter that you have a young Tom Hardy who does turn in a pretty good performance, a really cool ship design in the Scimitar and a really good space battle between the Enterprise and the Scimitar.
Except you, Neelix and Kes. You were completely awful. Especially you, Neelix. Dating a child. Dirty.
Neelix was odd in so much as he seemed superfluous as a character. They take him on as a cook to preserve energy from replicating food, even though it seems to be a really minor resource drain and they never really show any other shortages of resources in general on the ship. Meanwhile his role as guide was fast exceeded as they weren't going on a short jolly but across an entire sector. I think if they'd done a lot more to show how Voyager was pressured by their chioce - such as they did in Battlestar (original and new); then a "live" kitchen would have felt more important and his role at least then would have been important (esp when you consider most Starfleet officers likely only know how to cook as a hobby at best).
As for Kes, didn't her species only live for something like 10 years?
Her species lives for ten years and only ever reproduces once, with one child. That comes out of the back.
The biggest thing was that resources where never a problem for voyager. Ok makes sense, they trade and look for dilithium /missiles.
But what are star ships powered by? The Warp Core?
The warp core uses deuterium for fuel, a common isotope of the most common element in the universe. (It’s possible they also use it to power the fusion reactors in the impulse engines. Otherwise I’m not sure why they just wouldn’t use all hydrogen.) Dilithium is used to regulate the interaction between deuterium and anti-deuterium in order to maintain 100% annihilation. The red glowy parts of the warp engines are big magnets that pull in hydrogen and deuterium.
I love the horrible math involved in Kes’ race’s reproduction. First off, their the whole they only have one kid. Your race is immediately doomed if it takes two of you to make one new one, and only ever one. Every male born is one less member of the race, and their population never goes up.
Secondly, their race has a nine year life span. They have their kid when they’re five. Kes says normally her father would have helped her thru it. Your father would be ten, and thus already dead of old age. Unless I suppose their ladies always dated younger men.
AduroT wrote: DS9 has maybe too much Quark I think, but not excessively so.
He was always great on the station. Its when they started dragging him off to 'fix' the Ferengi/Ferenginar that it felt like a stretch.
It wasn't to his benefit, it wasn't even remotely his job or in his wheelhouse, and pretty much no one wanted him to do it, including himself.
As a not-particularly-successful barkeep/semi-criminal/criminal facilitator, he was great. As an unwilling social crusader, it was... odd.
And as the 'Magnificent Ferengi' episode showed, he knew a lot of nasty people that would have him, his brother and his mother quietly murdered, even if they did ultimately adopt some of the more profitable reforms.
They do that a lot I've noticed, any event in the Klingon Empire has Worf involved, any event on Ferenginar has Quark and Nog involved etc.
I think it is good to have events interpreted through the lense of a character that we know, but it does detract from the world builing a bit as these places seem like they are waiting for the main cast to swing by!
True, but at least it’s not the irksome half-human trope, where our protagonist is taught/encouraged to only act on their human interests.
Quark is, arguably, quite the cosmopolitan Ferengi. Thanks to his bar, and the wormhole, he’s exposed to a great many different cultures. So when we see him confronted with sociological changed in his own people, he makes for an interesting lens for us, the viewer. It also provides some conflict as we see Federation ideals hold at least some influence on him.
As covered before, Worf is a really, really good lens for us as the audience to witness Klingon culture. On one hand, he is Klingon, and he absolutely has a warrior’s heart and soul. But on the other, his understanding of Klingon Culture is romanticised. Something he learned from books and second hand tales. One could say he’s an accidental Klingon anime fan (I did use the slang word here, but filters) - someone who venerates a culture, but hasn’t really lived the culture.
And it’s Worf’s ongoing exploration of the highs and lows that make such tales interesting. For me, they got the narrative balance just about right. He’s a Klingon that happens to be a Federation Officer, not a Federation Officer that happens to be Klingon.
I mean, when he takes out Duros and Gowron, that’s pure Klingon. That is his culture - call them out, fight honourably, take their lives in a fair fight.
Indeed, Picard’s response to his slaying of Duros is perfect. He bawls him out, and makes it clear it will affect his career etc, without actually bollocking him for being Klingon.
Good I love TNG and DS9! Such excellent writing! (Yes there is of course dross. Move along home )
AduroT wrote: DS9 has maybe too much Quark I think, but not excessively so.
He was always great on the station. Its when they started dragging him off to 'fix' the Ferengi/Ferenginar that it felt like a stretch.
It wasn't to his benefit, it wasn't even remotely his job or in his wheelhouse, and pretty much no one wanted him to do it, including himself.
As a not-particularly-successful barkeep/semi-criminal/criminal facilitator, he was great. As an unwilling social crusader, it was... odd.
And as the 'Magnificent Ferengi' episode showed, he knew a lot of nasty people that would have him, his brother and his mother quietly murdered, even if they did ultimately adopt some of the more profitable reforms.
They do that a lot I've noticed, any event in the Klingon Empire has Worf involved, any event on Ferenginar has Quark and Nog involved etc.
I think it is good to have events interpreted through the lense of a character that we know, but it does detract from the world builing a bit as these places seem like they are waiting for the main cast to swing by!
Lets not forget the one time Quark went to Qo'noS to save a powerful Klingon house from a basic hostile takeover.
Right, but the not so glorious personal combat is how the other guy Lost. The Victory was achieved by refusing to participate in it. If we’re doing technicalities, you gotta go full on.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: True, but at least it’s not the irksome half-human trope, where our protagonist is taught/encouraged to only act on their human interests.
Quark is, arguably, quite the cosmopolitan Ferengi. Thanks to his bar, and the wormhole, he’s exposed to a great many different cultures. So when we see him confronted with sociological changed in his own people, he makes for an interesting lens for us, the viewer. It also provides some conflict as we see Federation ideals hold at least some influence on him.
As covered before, Worf is a really, really good lens for us as the audience to witness Klingon culture. On one hand, he is Klingon, and he absolutely has a warrior’s heart and soul. But on the other, his understanding of Klingon Culture is romanticised. Something he learned from books and second hand tales. One could say he’s an accidental Klingon anime fan (I did use the slang word here, but filters) - someone who venerates a culture, but hasn’t really lived the culture.
And it’s Worf’s ongoing exploration of the highs and lows that make such tales interesting. For me, they got the narrative balance just about right. He’s a Klingon that happens to be a Federation Officer, not a Federation Officer that happens to be Klingon.
I mean, when he takes out Duros and Gowron, that’s pure Klingon. That is his culture - call them out, fight honourably, take their lives in a fair fight.
Indeed, Picard’s response to his slaying of Duros is perfect. He bawls him out, and makes it clear it will affect his career etc, without actually bollocking him for being Klingon.
Good I love TNG and DS9! Such excellent writing! (Yes there is of course dross. Move along home )
I see both of those examples as part of the really problematic writing of ST, certainly not excellent. The 'your culture is wrong, you MUST accept our idealized 20th century moral values' card gets played a lot, especially with Worf and later with Quark- who should be too cosmopolitan to fall into this hole.
Picard is absolutely 'bollocking' Worf for trying to be Klingon. If he actually accepted Klingon culture as worthwhile, he'd let the slaying of Duros pass without comment- accepting it as moral and legal in terms of what was going on.
The root beer discussion between Garak and Quark is the most honest the writers ever are about this, but the characters are stuck with the conclusion that it is pretty much inevitable.
You can see that type of writing in the Star Trek "Homage" The Orville.
It regularly insults other cultures and builds up cultures as strawmen for the show to tear it down. You would see this in earlier TNG, with alot of aliens just existing for them to enforce federation values one.
Which is why DS9 with how they handled the Bajorans so well i think, They where never considered backwards or wrong for their beliefs.
I think Ron Moore had a lot to do with that, for good and ill.
SF debris did a good analysis on the thematic idea of 'honor' that got revisited again and again in the Worf/Klingon episodes - the idea that Klingons cherish honor as the esteem they are held up to by others, while Worf's sense of honor is about his own esteem in the manner in which he conducts himself.
It's clear that the romantic idea of honour is different to how it plays out in reality with a lot of variation on personal interpretation of the honour system.
Also its important to realise that the Klingons have been slowly changing. Their Empire peaked out and is not growing; their war-engine is honestly mostly stalled and they became the guard dog of the Federation. A role that they openly deny if asked but its clearly part of their role.
One of the big things in DS9 was that the Klingons didn't like that role and started pushing back; they saw another race building an empire and it awakened some of the Klingon fire for war and a desire to relive the glory days of their Empire. It didn't last, but ultimately they are a race going through very slow social change as a result of Federation influence.
One neat thing Worf actually shows is that his interpretation of classic honour actually works well with the Federations overall attitudes and morals "mostly". It's not a perfect fit, but the broad ideals do fit together.
What would be really neat would be to see how the Klingons are and wil react to the Picard storyline whereby the Federation has armed up itself and actually built a warfleet (keeping in mind the fleet we saw at the end of Picard appeared to be bigger than the one used to repel the Borg Cube and also potentially larger than several of the DS9 fleets = though how much of that we can put down to advances in cost and CGI technology and how much is actual advance of the Federation in numbers is hard to say).
The fleet at the close of Picard is troublesome for a lot of reasons.
If I had to hand wave it I would say the Federation has (finally) started mass producing a single class of war/defense ships, minimal crews, no frills.
In contrast with the older model of bespoke ships that could do everything from patrol the Neutral Zone to catalogue plant life on a new world to fly to the far side of the galaxy and come back.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:The fleet at the close of Picard is troublesome for a lot of reasons.
If I had to hand wave it I would say the Federation has (finally) started mass producing a single class of war/defense ships, minimal crews, no frills.
In contrast with the older model of bespoke ships that could do everything from patrol the Neutral Zone to catalogue plant life on a new world to fly to the far side of the galaxy and come back.
I don't think its hand waving, I think its a sensible move by the Federation. Consider that the Federation essentially grew in a peaceful bubble. Most of the major empires they met were past their period of expansion and either in a golden age of stability or heading toward (or fully in) a decline. Even Klingons weren't in heavy expansion. So they wound up with Neutral Zones everywhere and boundaries and because the Federation wasn't an aggressive expansionist group they didn't spark major reprisals. The few battles and wars they did have mostly got solved on their own with a few ships and diplomacy.
It wasn't until the Dominion War that the Federation (indeed the whole Quadrant) actually got a full on war that lasted beyond a few token fights. It also showed up how weak most of them were, even warrior races like the Klingons were not prepared for an all out actual war on multiple fronts. The Federation meanwhile found that when war arose many of their allies were not always ready to help - again even the guarddog Klingons were iffy and were on a knife edge between helping or breaking away and going it alone.
Couple that to ever increasing Borg and such and you've got a Federation that woke up to the fact that exploratory ships might not be all they need. They started with the Defiant, one ship. They enter a war and they built, by the end, 3 actual warships and they were all very small class sizes. Powerful, but small. In the end the Federation won, but don't forget a big part of that was the Wormhole Aliens and the self replicating mines. Basically they only won by being able to cut off Dominion forces and hold one key chokepoint. Without that the Dominion would have out bred and out produced the other factions very quickly.
Suffice to say the Federation likely work up and realised that even if they are peaceful, they need an actual fleet and actual warriors. So commissioning a fleet of identical or near identical ships purely for the purpose of keeping the peace is very sensible. The only oddity in the scene is that Riker was able to commandeer so many ships so fast. Then again he likely did just what we saw Picard do right at the start, only Riker is still in Starfleet and still had contacts and allies in the political system.
My only real dislike is that the Romulan ships looked, weak. They didn't have that impressive awe inspiring presence of the old Birds of War. Now they looked menacing, powerful (and could have had room for way more guns and fleets of fighters).
AduroT wrote:Personally I always felt the fleets seemed too small before, so I’m mostly ok with it.
I can agree with that; part of what we saw of the past was technological limitations of the time. Races would allude to fleets and such right up until late DS9 we'd mostly only see a couple of ships here and there.
In terms of the Federation arming up? There’s also the continued threat of the Borg and the Dominion mounting comebacks.
I can see that being approved of by Klingons, as it’s one thing to love a fight, it’s quite another to have an ally turn you into their shield, whilst refusing to join in.
It's problematic because in the past the Federation struggled to put out 10 or 20 ships at a time (of multiple classes). And even then had to draft random officers to fill them. Now they can field 100+ all the same, on a half hours' notice.
Granted it's 20-30 years later and after 2-3 big wars, but still a bit continuity breaking. A few lines somewhere would have taken care of any issues but that might have spoiled Riker's big damn hero moment.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: It's problematic because in the past the Federation struggled to put out 10 or 20 ships at a time (of multiple classes). And even then had to draft random officers to fill them. Now they can field 100+ all the same, on a half hours' notice.
Granted it's 20-30 years later and after 2-3 big wars, but still a bit continuity breaking. A few lines somewhere would have taken care of any issues but that might have spoiled Riker's big damn hero moment.
Considering the size of the Federation that fleet is likely still small.
Compare it to say the modern day UK armed forces. They don't use drafts and are much smaller in number than in the past; but what they have is a focus on quailty over quantity. Plus there aren't any major wars between big nations at present. So there's no need to draft or draw up or even promoted the armed forces in a big way. There's no huge war to gear up or prepare for nor reason to hold such massive investment. Federation was at that stage, then the Dominion War kicked off and the Borg threat grew. That's 2 big risks that have not gone away, so the Federation has entered into a Cold War type situation and is arming up. Attitudes have shifted, needs have shifted and chances are this means they've made massive investments into building more ships; training more crew and promoting Star Fleet as a major life goal for many. With 10-20 years that's a long time, enough to build up such a system when you've got multiple planets at your disposal.
Granted the risk for the Federation and the reason they never did it before was because they didn't want to end up in a major Cold War with multiple factions; however after the Dominion War the home field is quite different. Romulans, Cardassians and such all were weakened, but also had stronger alliance bonds with the Federation come the end. So the Federations home territory has become more stable for them (more or less) and they aren't entering into a cold war with their neighbours; but with forces far outside of their home regions. There's nothing to say the Dominion hasn't armed up as well in secret and the Borg certainly have not to mention other threats that might be out there in the black of space. Space basically has gone from being an explorers wonder to a dangerous place; the exploratory ships are now ships of war.
Overread wrote: It's clear that the romantic idea of honour is different to how it plays out in reality with a lot of variation on personal interpretation of the honour system.
Honor I think is one of those words that is heavily watered down by shifting cultural norms and attitudes.
People today kind of regard it as some vague notion of behaving according to an established code or engaging in fair behavior, and it gets treated as something as an individual ideal rather than a cultural construction. Star Trek is one of the few shows I can think of where honor actually means honor, though the show fudges a lot so it can often look like it's the watered down variation. Klingon honor is completely about being a warrior and adhering to a set of behaviors that the Klingon's culturally subscribe to as honorable (fight to win, don't surrender/retreat, warriors don't play 'politics' etc.). And the Klingons also did it right by breaking a lot of the presumed rules when it was pragmatic, because no society is so honor bound that it encourages rampant stupidity. The Klingons used cloaking devices because their tactical advantage is too good to give up and they play politics because they're unavoidable, but all these things are interpreted through the lens of being a warrior, which isn't an individual idea but a shared cultural idealogue of expected behaviors and social norms.
One neat thing Worf actually shows is that his interpretation of classic honour actually works well with the Federations overall attitudes and morals "mostly". It's not a perfect fit, but the broad ideals do fit together.
To a degree, I think it also slowly shows how Worf's perceptions are shaped by growing up and serving in the Federation. We see few Klingons who have Worf's sense of fair play. Fair play doesn't actually seem that important in their culture, but Worf frequently does things that hinder himself to offer an enemy a fighting chance and it often backfires. He's also frankly, a lot more honest that pretty much any other Klingon we meet. Most are willing to lie and don't seem to regard lying to non-Klingon's as dishonorable. Worf tends to treat inter-personal deception as beneath him and it always struck me as more of a Federation ideal that he'd absorbed into his perception of Klingon culture rather than something native.
Finally watch the last episode of STD. I liked because it was refreshing to have an episode where no one got shot or punched. Like seriously I think it may be the only STD episode so far to not have that.
I like Tilly, but yeah, that made no sense. I feel like it actually robs her of a more intereting character arc of actually becoming Captain one day which she stated was her goal in the first episode. Like they could have just promoted her to Lieutenant and that would have been a huge deal for her and we could see what happened after that but they decided to just get this over with and make her 1st officer...
I don't know about that, my impression is that Worf has a very narrow view of what is Klingon. Would his vision of a renewed Klingon Empire really be that great?
Gowron on the other hand has a lot more to lose than Worf, but he shows on multiple occasions that he can look beyond Klingon rules and traditions to make the pragmatic choice if he can see the benefits. (For himself or the Empire!) Gowron also seems to weaponise honour to manipulate Martok, he knows when to seem to have honour and when to discard it.
I liked that in the end his undoing was not because of some inherent Klingon inflexibility or desire for an honourable death, but because one of his plan's unraveled.
I think there really could be some sort of potential in there if there is a kind of 'yes man' route that they alluded to.
I mean, I'd feel bad because it also feels like that sort of plotline would mean shoving Saru under a bus, but it could certainly be interesting if it does end up being something like Tilly not rising to the challenge of being a 'good' first officer, because she was Not Ready Yet.
One thing they did highlight a few times is that she is the *provisional* First Officer, maybe it's a case of her rising to the occasion, doing well, then get busted down by central Starfleet, being replaced by an outsider.
There's plenty of routes the story could go that ends up with it not being 'Tilly is now Boring First Officer like Chakotay now.'
So like, Tilly made the stupidiest decision ever with the "What if its not a federation ship" right?
That will surely mean she isnt an XO anymore because Osyra saw right through that.
Man, that ship sure has a ton of firepower! Cant blow up a single smugger ship.
I know the bad guy’s ship’s special weak spot! Shoot the entire thing.
Shields are at 10%, we can’t take much more of this, I’m switching piloting to manual! Continue to fly straight line strafing runs back and forth along the length of the enemy ship while still being hit by their guns.
AduroT wrote: Man, that ship sure has a ton of firepower! Cant blow up a single smugger ship.
I know the bad guy’s ship’s special weak spot! Shoot the entire thing.
Shields are at 10%, we can’t take much more of this, I’m switching piloting to manual! Continue to fly straight line strafing runs back and forth along the length of the enemy ship while still being hit by their guns.
We have a plan for defeating the armed to the teeth pirate ship, send a much smaller and weaker ship to fight it!
Won't that start a war?
Oh no, because it's not a federation ship. Just a ship launched from our shuttle bay, crewed by a Federation pilot. No one would EVER connect this to us!
The only way this can be redeemed is if it in fact leads to a ruinous war and Saru and Tilley being court marshaled.
Which made me realize why these things annoy me so much.
Star Trek is a whole load of nonsense piled together. But Star Fleet, the crew, the regs, all these things are our touchstone as the audience, that despite the inverted time fluxes and rubber forehead aliens, Star Fleet is still a familiar seeming organization and limits the amount of nonsense the writers can insert. But once you have ensigns being promoted to First Officer (or court marshaled cadets being promoted to captains) then it all falls apart it's all nonsense.
The only way this can be redeemed is if it in fact leads to a ruinous war and Saru and Tilley being court marshaled.
Totally worth it. It's alpha canon now that mutiny and starting a war that costs hundreds of millions of Federation citizens their lives only gets you an 8 month incarceration followed by a year of probation before you're fully reinstated back into Starfleet. I'd suspect that a short regional war with some rinky dink pirate faction will only get you house arrest for a month at most and a three slip GPL fine.
I thought the situation was fine, it was good old fashioned diplomatic Implausible deniability.
And typically... In the real world... It works. Because you know it's BS, they know it's BS. You know that they know it's BS buuuut, you don't want to make it a hill you die on, or you don't want to start WW3, so you just, well, accept it, put a few sanctions, and move on.
I can think of a few half dozen things in recent years that are exactly that...
The problem is, and this may very well end up being what DOES put Tilly and Saru up the creek on the show...
Is that Ossyra isn't a diplomat. Tilly and Saru are playing the wrong game. Ossyra's a crime boss, not a diplomat and like Ryn did, Discovery made her look weak. And THATS going to have reprecussions, as Ryn warned.
I think it's *highly likely* there's going to be bad ramifications for the Discovery and her crew from this choice with the Federation. It might not end up being a court martial but I think it's definitely going to be a case of the admiralty being annoyed that the naive out of touch idiots on board the Discovery put their foot in it. Again.
Of course, what will probably 'save' the Disco crew is again, from the silly confrontation, they've gotten a vital extra piece of information, about Ossyra's weakness.
Ya exactly. They’re not some nation state, they’re a crime syndicate. Feth ‘em and it may just force The Federation into a conflict that they should have been fighting anyway. I’m sure many former federation worlds have fallen into the hands of tyrants and what is basically the Mafia. That has to be dealt with sooner or later.
Yeah if i was to suspect, this is some sort or "Trial" by mr newspaper guy to see if she can exist in the "Prime" universe and hee will rearrange her molecules.
I think this episode reallly shows how, when you take the focus away from Micheal, the show becomes much more interesting, the second she stepped into her memories i was hooked, because I enjoyed it more because it wasnt more of the same.
More like this and less Vulcan Debate club please.
Think I’m just not entirely sold on Book’s character. When he’s front and centre, it feels like a different, unrelated show, which makes it all feel a bit disjointed.
I’m up to episode 13 of DS9 season six, Far Beyond The Stars. Having made zero effort to look up any actors, it’s really interesting to see the characters without all their alien makeup and prosthetics and try to recognize everyone on their voice alone.
AduroT wrote: I’m up to episode 13 of DS9 season six, Far Beyond The Stars. Having made zero effort to look up any actors, it’s really interesting to see the characters without all their alien makeup and prosthetics and try to recognize everyone on their voice alone.
Absolutely, I didn't recognize J. G. Herzler at all.
AduroT wrote: I’m up to episode 13 of DS9 season six, Far Beyond The Stars. Having made zero effort to look up any actors, it’s really interesting to see the characters without all their alien makeup and prosthetics and try to recognize everyone on their voice alone.
Absolutely, I didn't recognize J. G. Herzler at all.
He was an easy one for me because I happened to be looking at my phone when he came on so I heard him before I saw him, which really helped. Ducat was the one that took me a minute, and mostly thanks to his association with his partner.
I spotted Aron Eisenberg right away. Avery Brooks gives the all-star performance in the episode, but I think Michael Dorn is really great too. And Terry Ferrel's character is really fun ("oooh, she has a slug in her belly?").
I spotted Nog, but I wasn’t quite sure. He’s the first one, so it’s not an established pattern yet, but I was fairly certain that was him, and his height really helped tip that off. Michael Dorn is a weird one because he doesn’t look like he sounds to me, at least not in that outfit. (Worm)
Who do I need to, ahem, give dirty favours to for the whole show to be set in the Mirror Universe?
Enterprise did it brilliantly - have they gone back to the "fun" mirror Shenzhou which was still about at end of S2 then - I would watch that epsiode - as long as Burnham or Tilly is not present to ruin it
I liked Disco, the Mirror Universe is always fun (in limited doses) but my enjoyments was hampered by knowing that Georgiou had to be moved to the 23rd C for her new show to happen. Made all of it feel like an obligation rather than an organic story.
And the final love fest for Space Hitler... yeah no. Can someone at least point out she was Space Hitler in the course of it? Maybe even have a real interpersonal conflict over it?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I liked Disco, the Mirror Universe is always fun (in limited doses) but my enjoyments was hampered by knowing that Georgiou had to be moved to the 23rd C for her new show to happen. Made all of it feel like an obligation rather than an organic story.
And the final love fest for Space Hitler... yeah no. Can someone at least point out she was Space Hitler in the course of it? Maybe even have a real interpersonal conflict over it?
Love the Mirror Universe - friend of my gave the rundown of it being however about yet another Burnham focussed story - is there any other kind Discovery episode/season.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I liked Disco, the Mirror Universe is always fun (in limited doses) but my enjoyments was hampered by knowing that Georgiou had to be moved to the 23rd C for her new show to happen. Made all of it feel like an obligation rather than an organic story.
And the final love fest for Space Hitler... yeah no. Can someone at least point out she was Space Hitler in the course of it? Maybe even have a real interpersonal conflict over it?
Ya just finished it a while ago and was going to say the same thing. This was one of the better trips to the mirror universe but like think about how horrible a person she must be to become Emperor of something like The Terran Empire. We know she eats Kelpians and that’s probably just the tip of the iceberg. Besides that she’s just a terrible character that childishly insults everyone immediately when she sees them. It’s supposed make her look badass but it just makes her look childish.
They didn’t even have this kind of send off for the Prime Georghiou and she was their actual captain they knew for years - who actually died. Ridiculous.
Mirror Universe stuff was OK, but I did find the novelty wore off quite quickly this time around. Was good to get a bit of a break from the regular characters but that's not really praising the episode so much as pointing out some of the shortcomings of the series.
Totally agree about the Emperor love-in at the end as well. Apart from the fact she was literally a genocidal maniac, it just seemed completely unearned. Very few of the characters really interacted with her much and her standard conversation starter was an insult followed by an empty threat of violence. It reminded me of when Ariam died last season. The writers seem to think we all love these characters dearly when for the most part they haven't had enough development for anyone to feel anything towards them. Of those that have, it's about 50/50 as to whether the audience loves or hates them.
AduroT wrote: Finished season six of DS9, on to the final!
Enjoy! You're tearing through it - I did the same the closer I got to the end. Season 6 is some of my favorite DS9, that first block of six episodes work as a great war movie; about the same length as A Bridge Too Far!
Season 7 has some really fun moments. Let me know what you think of
Spoiler:
Esri Dax, she has two episodes in the first half of the season as a main character that, although a bit out of place in the Dominion War storyline, I still enjoyed; I think she's a good character, unfortunately season seven is just a very bad time to introduce a new main cast member.
Well, that was the supidiest, most dumbass, assinine reason for the burn ever.
Spoiler:
A kid, who we have never heard of, who was only introduced this episode, has unexplained dilithium abilities? Not to mention the "Lol Hologram" reason for their appearences, which were a big mystery in the teaser.
Not to mention, Tilly shows she is BAD AT COMMAND
She never even moved the ship after cloaking.
What just dawned on me given how super top secret the workings of the spore drive are is
Spoiler:
how did the chain know to beam in to the (apparently unshielded) spore box and bring along a mind control headband? Unless someone high up leaked the workings.
Also
Spoiler:
why just sit there and not shoot as the other ship is sending out its tentacles?
Have a wide range of body shapes by all means but not stupid tokenism.
)
