Trickstick wrote: Well I found a use for my FW vanquisher model. Now it can be a relic battlecannon. The improved overwatch is a nice buff I guess, nothing amazing. The two stratagems sounds nice, both very mobile focused. I wonder how useful the advancing one will be with Tallarn, hopefully it won't make either one redundant.
Field commander is unexpected, and really opens up the uses of these formations.
I mean, considering that with Mordians and Defensive Gunners you can get up to a 75% chance to hit on overwatch, that's...pretty good...
At least it isn't as bad as Vegeance for Cadia. Now everyone else can get a taste of that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: The really sad thing about these Specialist detachments, is that the Outrider, Spearhead and Vanguard detachments already pay a heavy CP tax to be used already (because you only get 1CP instead of say 3-5) and making them a Specialist Detachment just to add a freaking Keyword robs them of that CP entirely.
And on top of that, once you've traded that CP, you still have to pay another just to use the special Stratagem that buying that Keyword is for.
Until CPs are related to being Battle Forged and give more than a measly 3CPs, these Specialist Detachments are a hard pass on that for me.
You can just have battalions be specialist detachments. I do hate how it's again rewarding armies that have access to more CP. I hope the way you get CP is reworked somehow.
Aaranis wrote: Blessed be the Omnissiah, Fistelan Robots have a chance of becoming a thing. Give your Detachment Cohort Cybernetica (1CP) DS 4 Robots with Lucius (1CP), charge 6" with Aegis protocol to soak the overwatch, fight a first time, tank the eventual Counter-Offensive, Binharic Override to switch to Fisty protocols (1CP) and continue punching whatever you wanted to punch.
Now we just need them to be cheaper than triple HPB (you know, the loadout which is actually useful and more safe to use).
A good day to be an Adeptus Mechanicus player.
Usually you either stand or walk 1 turn with Kastelans before you turn into an immobile turret.
So turning heavy into assault makes them more mobile for 1 turn, allowing an advance/no -1 hit.
Only thing I can see right now is the 3" extra charge if Fistelans become a thing with CA18 and a massive price drop on their melee weapons... we are in agreement here.
Roll badly on your one-time-use warlord trait and there goes your entire benefit. Unless the relic, if there is one AND it is good, which I doubt, Id rather use that CP to get an extra relic and use the Autocaduceus...
Overall this detachment seems pretty weak to me.
Yeah I agree the Trait should've been 2d3, that way it would actually be better. It's only when repairing Robots so not broken.
Yes, the movement without penalty is indeed nice. Gives that extra freedom before double shots. I'm just used to plant them round 1 in my meta due to CC-heavy armies.
You have no idea how long I've waited for viable punching Bots.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can just have battalions be specialist detachments. I do hate how it's again rewarding armies that have access to more CP. I hope the way you get CP is reworked somehow.
Galef wrote: The really sad thing about these Specialist detachments, is that the Outrider, Spearhead and Vanguard detachments already pay a heavy CP tax to be used already (because you only get 1CP instead of say 3-5) and making them a Specialist Detachment just to add a freaking Keyword robs them of that CP entirely.
And on top of that, once you've traded that CP, you still have to pay another just to use the special Stratagem that buying that Keyword is for.
Until CPs are related to being Battle Forged and give more than a measly 3CPs, these Specialist Detachments are a hard pass on that for me.
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whats to stop you from taking say a battalion with 2 tank commanders and 3 LRs in the heavy slot and making it a Fist detachment?
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can just have battalions be specialist detachments. I do hate how it's again rewarding armies that have access to more CP. I hope the way you get CP is reworked somehow.
That's exactly my point. If GW wants all armies to take at least Battalion as mandatory, they should make that a Matched Play rule.
But instead they've just made Battalions the de-facto detachment by means of making the others, specifically the Outrider, Vanguard and Spearhead, so not worth it that it isn't funny
The slightly irritating thing is to not have all the rules for any of these things. It’s interesting that the primaris detachment buffs inceptors as well as intercessors (but nobody else). I wonder what it does for them, as clearly they can’t become veteran intercessors.
That said, a veteran intercessor battalion can quickly eat all of its own CPs. 1 to have the detachment, three to upgrade the squads and maybe another one to give a character its warlord trait – whatever that may be. So you almost have to have a battery detachment just to have any CPs in the game at all.
It does incentivise taking squads of 10 intercessors though. If the stratagems for them are worth using (unlike the one that lets you have very expensive CP-eating snipers with 3 attacks each in combat…) then it could be pretty interesting. If the auto-rifle stratagem is decent then maybe it’ll even be worthwhile fielding some of them.
Yeah, I was really hoping I wouldn't have to upgrade a Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessor Squad into Veterans in order to use the Sniper Stratagem. That is 3CP right there to use. Definitely need ten Stalker Bolt Rifles in that squad. Though really, they will be next to a Captain/Chapter Master and a Lieutenant. With the SBR laying down Mortal Wounds, not many Characters would be able to survive.
I am really hoping that the Liberator Strike Force is good. I want a very fluffy Crimson Fists detachment. If it doesn't really work well with my Primaris-focused army, I will likely run Indomitus Crusaders instead.
Why not have both. Woo!
To be honest I expect the crusaders army will be better for both of us, except if the liberators one somehow includes lots of primaris guys too. It might, I guess.
Now is that a headline you ever thought you’d see on this website? Chapter Approved 2018 would be exciting enough if all it had was a tonne of rules for matched, open and narrative play – but it also contains the beta version of Codex: Adepta Sororitas.
In a radical move, we’re looking to employ the biggest playtest group in the world to make sure the codex is as awesome as it can possibly be – that’s you guys!
The codex in Chapter Approved is but a taste of what we’ve got planned, but it’s already incredibly expansive, featuring a reworked and improved Acts of Faith system, Order Convictions, Stratagems, Warlord Traits and Relics. To help you prepare and stoke the fires of your hype, we’re previewing all of them today.
The Sisters of Battle are renowned for the sheer force of their faith, their belief so strong that it seems to allow them to overcome their physical limitations and perform incredible feats of strength. In the new codex, Acts of Faith are powerful abilities. To cast one, you spend a Faith Point, then see if you can roll over the act’s Devotion Value. Take The Passion:
With a Devotion Value of 5, you’d need to roll a 5 or over – at which point, you can proceed to turn your enemy into heretic-themed bolognese with your eviscerators. You’ll be able to influence this roll in a number of ways, particularly by using a Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus.
Unlike in the previous system, Acts of Faith are designed to scale up based on army size, with you getting an additional Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule in your force. This makes the Sisters of Battle incredibly flexible, with Acts of Faith, combined with Stratagems, allowing them to adjust their tactics on the fly.
This codex also offers Sisters of Battle a host of sub-faction rules with which to customise your army even further, representing the unique battle tactics employed by the various Orders Militant. Each gives your army a distinct flavour, as well as being pretty powerful. The Stoic Endurance of the Order of the Valorous Heart makes them even harder to kill, and is fantastic when combined with the 6+ invulnerable save that all Sisters of Battle have:
The Daughters of the Ebon Chalice, on the other hand, are particularly good at pulling off Acts of Faith, and make those trickier Acts that little bit easier to use:
There are six Order Convictions to choose from in total, giving you yet more options when building your army, and letting you represent your favourites from the lore as never before.
With Acts of Faith representing the divine powers of the Sisters of Battle and Order Convictions the character of their sub-factions, a host of Stratagems allow you to use their particular tactical abilities. Turns out it’s a lot more complicated than “burn anything that looks like a heretic”. Suffer Not The Witch, for instance, allows you to put the hurt on your chosen Psyker, whether it’s a Hive Tyrant or Magnus the Red himself!
The humble storm bolter is also getting a massive upgrade in the new codex, with squads of Dominions wielding them suddenly a very appealing prospect indeed, thanks to blessed bolts:
The new Stratagems are designed to interact with and complement the Acts of Faith, making the Sisters of Battle incredibly deep and tactically rewarding for a forward-thinking general. Vessel of the Emperor’s Will is a great example, maximising the effectiveness of your chosen Act of Faith:
Last, but not least, you’ll have a host of Warlord Traits and Relics with which to customise your Characters. These range from options that make a Canoness or Missionary even deadlier in close combat to some great support choices. By combining the Book of St Lucius and Indomitable Belief, for instance, you’ll have a key defensive lynchpin for the rest of your forces:
Alright – one more preview! Penitent Engines have got even better in the beta codex, and we can’t resist sharing just how. For one, these war machines now always fight twice in the Fight phase, and for another, they’ve been given an ability to ignore wounds:
Like the sound of the above? Think it’s too powerful – or not powerful enough? Well, like we said, we’re looking for your feedback! Everything you send us about this beta codex will help us balance Codex: Adepta Sororitas when it comes out in full.
You’ll be able to pre-order your copy of Chapter Approved this weekend. In the meantime, if you missed them, check out our previews of matched, open and narrative play.
dan2026 wrote: My only idea to fix Greater Daemons is to allow Daemon troops of the same alignment to to take mortal wounds for them. Look out Sir style.
That would be a little nuts. Brimstones / nurglings anyone?
The current rumored prices are a good place for them. If troops drop, too they'll be rocking tables again.
I think all of the Greater Daemons suffer more from fundamental rules problems rather than to expensive. They just don't bring much to the table. Their leadership aura is bad, they are only protected by a 5++, and they are not much better than your run of the mill daemon prince. Also I wouldn't expect daemon troops to get a points drop since they are some of the best troop choices in the game.
Yeah, whenever I get the thought in my head that I'd like one of the new Lords of Change as a big centerpiece to my demon detachment, I always get stuck on "what does this do that a DPtz from my Thousand Sons or a herald on chariot doesn't do better?
Character is still just so ludicrously broken and the captain aura out of the DP/strength aura out of the herald is so much better than his craptastic LD aura.
Their melee damage is pretty similar - 6 WS4+ S6 AP-3 D2 attacks from the chariot, 5 (or less) WS2+ S6 AP-1 D3 attacks from the LOC, 4 S7 WS2+ AP-2 D3 attacks from the prince.
The LOC has double the wounds...but no Character rule, so he will just get shot. And in a world where everyone and their brother has a 3++ knight and people are taking enough anti tank firepower to one round that sucker, I'm just serving them up a big blue turkey for dinner by bringing a LOC.
I guess he smites 30", so I can REALLY smash those D3 guardsmen from downtoooooooown.
He gets 3 psychic power casts, so I can cast all those AMAZING tzeentch daemon psychic powers like
..................
and lets not forget that OTHER amazing power
..................
I thought the LoC was pretty fun and balanced when he had the 2++ warp surge save. Yeah, he wasn't a great investment for 300 points but at least he never died, and could fly around being really annoying for your opponent. I always felt the warp surge nerf was really unnecessary because a 2++ LoC isn't even really that great. Seems like GW just really wanted them to be straight up bad.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can just have battalions be specialist detachments. I do hate how it's again rewarding armies that have access to more CP. I hope the way you get CP is reworked somehow.
That's exactly my point. If GW wants all armies to take at least Battalion as mandatory, they should make that a Matched Play rule.
But instead they've just made Battalions the de-facto detachment by means of making the others, specifically the Outrider, Vanguard and Spearhead, so not worth it that it isn't funny
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Forgive me if it sounds crass, but there's also the point where specialist detachments are specialists and not necessarily an entire army to themselves.
Take the genestealer cult aberrant are now beat sticks detachment, I'm almost certainly not taking that on anything with troops, drop an abominant and a bunch of aberrants in their own detachment and specialize that, maybe take the broodsurge on the troop heavy detachment that actually generates additional CP.
This is honestly the only compelling thing I've seen in the rules not to limit CPs to within their own detachments.
pretre wrote: Unlike in the previous system, Acts of Faith are designed to scale up based on army size, with you getting an additional Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule in your force. This makes the Sisters of Battle incredibly flexible, with Acts of Faith, combined with Stratagems, allowing them to adjust their tactics on the fly.
Yes please!
pretre wrote: The humble storm bolter is also getting a massive upgrade in the new codex, with squads of Dominions wielding them suddenly a very appealing prospect indeed, thanks to blessed bolts:
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can just have battalions be specialist detachments. I do hate how it's again rewarding armies that have access to more CP. I hope the way you get CP is reworked somehow.
That's exactly my point. If GW wants all armies to take at least Battalion as mandatory, they should make that a Matched Play rule.
But instead they've just made Battalions the de-facto detachment by means of making the others, specifically the Outrider, Vanguard and Spearhead, so not worth it that it isn't funny
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Forgive me if it sounds crass, but there's also the point where specialist detachments are specialists and not necessarily an entire army to themselves.
Take the genestealer cult aberrant are now beat sticks detachment, I'm almost certainly not taking that on anything with troops, drop an abominant and a bunch of aberrants in their own detachment and specialize that, maybe take the broodsurge on the troop heavy detachment that actually generates additional CP.
This is honestly the only compelling thing I've seen in the rules not to limit CPs to within their own detachments.
While that’s kind of true, as far as I can see there’s no reason not to just upgrade a battalion – indeed that may remain the better option in some cases.
For example, if you’ve got a stratagem that you use on units in-play (as opposed to upgrading them before the game starts) then you can only use it on one of those units. There’d be no point having three units of intercessor vets with sniper rifles, for example (there’s actually no point having any at all, but that’s not my point here!).
So maybe it’s better in some cases to bring a specialist battalion and take one of unit X, which you’ll spam the stratagem on, rather than a specialist outrider or whatever. Your troops won’t benefit from the specialist detachment but neither will they lose anything. So far we’ve not seen anything to say that these detachments can only contain the units that they actually work for.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really hoping that the Liberator Strike Force is good. I want a very fluffy Crimson Fists detachment. If it doesn't really work well with my Primaris-focused army, I will likely run Indomitus Crusaders instead.
Unfortunately if the other SM detachments are any indicator, the CF one will probably be focused on non Primaris as well.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can just have battalions be specialist detachments. I do hate how it's again rewarding armies that have access to more CP. I hope the way you get CP is reworked somehow.
That's exactly my point. If GW wants all armies to take at least Battalion as mandatory, they should make that a Matched Play rule.
But instead they've just made Battalions the de-facto detachment by means of making the others, specifically the Outrider, Vanguard and Spearhead, so not worth it that it isn't funny
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Forgive me if it sounds crass, but there's also the point where specialist detachments are specialists and not necessarily an entire army to themselves.
Take the genestealer cult aberrant are now beat sticks detachment, I'm almost certainly not taking that on anything with troops, drop an abominant and a bunch of aberrants in their own detachment and specialize that, maybe take the broodsurge on the troop heavy detachment that actually generates additional CP.
This is honestly the only compelling thing I've seen in the rules not to limit CPs to within their own detachments.
I think part of the problem is that the intent, supposedly, is to allow you to run thematic armies.
But a thematic wraith army will be just wraith units (and spiritseers/boneseers), and will therefore not be able to fill CP-generating detachments. So to run the special wraith themed detachment, you are required to run a non-wraith army…
Ideally, these detachments should transform their specific, thematic units (wraithguards/blades, or windriders for the CWE ones) into troops, and at the same time forbid you from using some other non-thematic units to balance things out. These unit-selection restrictions should obviously extend to other detachments in the army.
That way they could really be used as the backbone of thematic lists.
Forgive me if it sounds crass, but there's also the point where specialist detachments are specialists and not necessarily an entire army to themselves.
This is a valid comment, but I would counter it but noting that many specialist TROOPS such as DW terminators and Eldar Windriders were removed from the Troops battlefield role specifically because you could use Vanguards and Outriders to represent those ARMIES in 8E. But everything continues to benefit Battalions to the point that those specialist ARMIES are no longer valid from a competitive standpoint. So not only did those units get removed as Troops (which initially was fine) but now you can't truly field a themed army of them outside casual games. DW armies don't traditionally have 15+ Tactical Marines, nor do Saim-Hann armies have 30+ infantry Guardians. Vanguards and Outriders are meant for this purpose.
The Wildrider Host Specialist detachment screams to be used on an Outrider because all the units named are either HQs or Fast Attacks. But you still need to take a Battalion just to have enough CPs to do anything meaningful. This would not be an issue if CPs were generated either completely outside of detachments (like Battle Forged giving 3CPs per 500pts of army limit), or in tandem with something else (like potentially Battle Forged generating 3CPs EACH TURN if your WL is alive)
Forgive me if it sounds crass, but there's also the point where specialist detachments are specialists and not necessarily an entire army to themselves.
This is a valid comment, but I would counter it but noting that many specialist TROOPS such as DW terminators and Eldar Windriders were removed from the Troops battlefield role specifically because you could use Vanguards and Outriders to represent those ARMIES in 8E.
But everything continues to benefit Battalions to the point that those specialist ARMIES are no longer valid from a competitive standpoint.
So not only did those units get removed as Troops (which initially was fine) but now you can't truly field a themed army of them outside casual games.
DW armies don't traditionally have 15+ Tactical Marines, nor do Saim-Hann armies have 30+ infantry Guardians. Vanguards and Outriders are meant for this purpose.
The Wildrider Host Specialist detachment screams to be used on an Outrider because all the units named are either HQs or Fast Attacks. But you still need to take a Battalion just to have enough CPs to do anything meaningful.
This would not be an issue if CPs were generated either completely outside of detachments (like Battle Forged giving 3CPs per 500pts of army limit), or in tandem with something else (like potentially Battle Forged generating 3CPs EACH TURN if your WL is alive)
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True. And it's also true that specialist detachments kind of make this situation worse. A windrider or speed freek detachment should not be made more effective by having a bunch of infantry tagging along.
When 8th started out, battalions gave 3CPs and nobody had stratagems anyway, it was reasonable to make an army around vanguards or outriders. Now they feel pointless.
yep, this can't be stated enough. So if I want to run my themed wraith host led by a Spiritseer, I will first have to add the mandatory 180pts for Rangers (HQs are not an issue as you are going to take them anyway) just to get access to +5CP instead of +1CP.. I despise this way of army building.
Same for my ravenwing. After Sammael and Talonmaster, I now have to look at 3 squads of scouts.....just to unlock 4 more CPs. There are no scouts in the Ravenwing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am really hoping that the Liberator Strike Force is good. I want a very fluffy Crimson Fists detachment. If it doesn't really work well with my Primaris-focused army, I will likely run Indomitus Crusaders instead.
Unfortunately if the other SM detachments are any indicator, the CF one will probably be focused on non Primaris as well.
That's probably fine, I will just segregate them between Detachments. But CF are largely Primaris now. It would make sense if they were built around that fact. Depending on what the Warlord Trait is, I will probably be able to make use of either one. The good thing is, Primaris Captains, Lieutenants, and etc. all have the regular Keyword, so they can be used in any detachment that allows a regular version of those Characters as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: yep, this can't be stated enough. So if I want to run my themed wraith host led by a Spiritseer, I will first have to add the mandatory 180pts for Rangers (HQs are not an issue as you are going to take them anyway) just to get access to +5CP instead of +1CP.. I despise this way of army building.
Same for my ravenwing. After Sammael and Talonmaster, I now have to look at 3 squads of scouts.....just to unlock 4 more CPs. There are no scouts in the Ravenwing.
You could always fluff them as dismounted RW infiltrators.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That relic Battlecannon for Guard is wicked good. A straight 3 damage is fantastic on that weapon.
It's so much better than a vanquisher it is hilarious. I like how the profile even seems like it could be two ammo types, like old vanquishers. Enough blast to attack infantry but enough punch to be an AT shot too.
Mandragola wrote: When 8th started out, battalions gave 3CPs and nobody had stratagems anyway, it was reasonable to make an army around vanguards or outriders. Now they feel pointless.
Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
Why oh why GW felt like Battalions needed to go up to 5CPs instead of, oh I don't know, BATTLE-FREAKIN-FORGED, I'll never understand.
Until they un-FAQ this mistake, the problem will keep getting worse and there will be no other detachments taken in Matched Play outside one-off LoW or Flyer detachments
Mandragola wrote: When 8th started out, battalions gave 3CPs and nobody had stratagems anyway, it was reasonable to make an army around vanguards or outriders. Now they feel pointless.
Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
Why oh why GW felt like Battalions needed to go up to 5CPs instead of, oh I don't know, BATTLE-FREAKIN-FORGED, I'll never understand.
Until they un-FAQ this mistake, the problem will keep getting worse and there will be no other detachments taken in Matched Play outside one-off LoW or Flyer detachments
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Russ spearheads are still alright, which give obsec. I guess Guard can afford to take them though, unlike other armies. Does anyone else get a special rule for a specific detachment?
Mandragola wrote: When 8th started out, battalions gave 3CPs and nobody had stratagems anyway, it was reasonable to make an army around vanguards or outriders. Now they feel pointless.
Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
Why oh why GW felt like Battalions needed to go up to 5CPs instead of, oh I don't know, BATTLE-FREAKIN-FORGED, I'll never understand.
Until they un-FAQ this mistake, the problem will keep getting worse and there will be no other detachments taken in Matched Play outside one-off LoW or Flyer detachments
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Russ spearheads are still alright, which give obsec. I guess Guard can afford to take them though, unlike other armies. Does anyone else get a special rule for a specific detachment?
I don't think they do, but actually the Russ spearhead is an interesting example. The Russes get obsec. If that was a generic rule for these kinds of detachments, so for instance fast attack choices in an outrider got obsec, then there'd be some actual reason to take them.
But as it is, it's nearly always better to take 3 troops and another HQ, and then only have to take 3+ heavy support (or whatever) if you actually want to. Even for the Russes, how useful is it really to be obsec compared to having those 4 extra CPs?
Now is that a headline you ever thought you’d see on this website? Chapter Approved 2018 would be exciting enough if all it had was a tonne of rules for matched, open and narrative play – but it also contains the beta version of Codex: Adepta Sororitas.
Spoiler:
In a radical move, we’re looking to employ the biggest playtest group in the world to make sure the codex is as awesome as it can possibly be – that’s you guys!
The codex in Chapter Approved is but a taste of what we’ve got planned, but it’s already incredibly expansive, featuring a reworked and improved Acts of Faith system, Order Convictions, Stratagems, Warlord Traits and Relics. To help you prepare and stoke the fires of your hype, we’re previewing all of them today.
The Sisters of Battle are renowned for the sheer force of their faith, their belief so strong that it seems to allow them to overcome their physical limitations and perform incredible feats of strength. In the new codex, Acts of Faith are powerful abilities. To cast one, you spend a Faith Point, then see if you can roll over the act’s Devotion Value. Take The Passion:
With a Devotion Value of 5, you’d need to roll a 5 or over – at which point, you can proceed to turn your enemy into heretic-themed bolognese with your eviscerators. You’ll be able to influence this roll in a number of ways, particularly by using a Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus.
Unlike in the previous system, Acts of Faith are designed to scale up based on army size, with you getting an additional Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule in your force. This makes the Sisters of Battle incredibly flexible, with Acts of Faith, combined with Stratagems, allowing them to adjust their tactics on the fly.
This codex also offers Sisters of Battle a host of sub-faction rules with which to customise your army even further, representing the unique battle tactics employed by the various Orders Militant. Each gives your army a distinct flavour, as well as being pretty powerful. The Stoic Endurance of the Order of the Valorous Heart makes them even harder to kill, and is fantastic when combined with the 6+ invulnerable save that all Sisters of Battle have:
The Daughters of the Ebon Chalice, on the other hand, are particularly good at pulling off Acts of Faith, and make those trickier Acts that little bit easier to use:
There are six Order Convictions to choose from in total, giving you yet more options when building your army, and letting you represent your favourites from the lore as never before.
With Acts of Faith representing the divine powers of the Sisters of Battle and Order Convictions the character of their sub-factions, a host of Stratagems allow you to use their particular tactical abilities. Turns out it’s a lot more complicated than “burn anything that looks like a heretic”. Suffer Not The Witch, for instance, allows you to put the hurt on your chosen Psyker, whether it’s a Hive Tyrant or Magnus the Red himself!
The humble storm bolter is also getting a massive upgrade in the new codex, with squads of Dominions wielding them suddenly a very appealing prospect indeed, thanks to blessed bolts:
The new Stratagems are designed to interact with and complement the Acts of Faith, making the Sisters of Battle incredibly deep and tactically rewarding for a forward-thinking general. Vessel of the Emperor’s Will is a great example, maximising the effectiveness of your chosen Act of Faith:
Last, but not least, you’ll have a host of Warlord Traits and Relics with which to customise your Characters. These range from options that make a Canoness or Missionary even deadlier in close combat to some great support choices. By combining the Book of St Lucius and Indomitable Belief, for instance, you’ll have a key defensive lynchpin for the rest of your forces:
Alright – one more preview! Penitent Engines have got even better in the beta codex, and we can’t resist sharing just how. For one, these war machines now always fight twice in the Fight phase, and for another, they’ve been given an ability to ignore wounds:
Like the sound of the above? Think it’s too powerful – or not powerful enough? Well, like we said, we’re looking for your feedback! Everything you send us about this beta codex will help us balance Codex: Adepta Sororitas when it comes out in full.
You’ll be able to pre-order your copy of Chapter Approved this weekend. In the meantime, if you missed them, check out our previews of matched, open and narrative play.
Good to see some new stuff
Acts of Faith - hmm roll over a 5+ on a D6 to do anything - not a great start.
Mandragola wrote: When 8th started out, battalions gave 3CPs and nobody had stratagems anyway, it was reasonable to make an army around vanguards or outriders. Now they feel pointless.
Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
Why oh why GW felt like Battalions needed to go up to 5CPs instead of, oh I don't know, BATTLE-FREAKIN-FORGED, I'll never understand.
Until they un-FAQ this mistake, the problem will keep getting worse and there will be no other detachments taken in Matched Play outside one-off LoW or Flyer detachments
-
They said why they did it at the time, if I remember correctly. They were trying to address complaints that people weren't using enough Troops and thus we're being unfluffy/not making preferred types of lists.
Yes, though of all the weapons that sisters have, storm bolters probably needed a buff the least.
Dominion squads using that strat will do pretty insane damage. They might even be the best option for shooting at T7 vehicles. If there's some way to make them fire twice (say an act of faith) then things will get odd.
Now is that a headline you ever thought you’d see on this website? Chapter Approved 2018 would be exciting enough if all it had was a tonne of rules for matched, open and narrative play – but it also contains the beta version of Codex: Adepta Sororitas.
Spoiler:
In a radical move, we’re looking to employ the biggest playtest group in the world to make sure the codex is as awesome as it can possibly be – that’s you guys!
The codex in Chapter Approved is but a taste of what we’ve got planned, but it’s already incredibly expansive, featuring a reworked and improved Acts of Faith system, Order Convictions, Stratagems, Warlord Traits and Relics. To help you prepare and stoke the fires of your hype, we’re previewing all of them today.
The Sisters of Battle are renowned for the sheer force of their faith, their belief so strong that it seems to allow them to overcome their physical limitations and perform incredible feats of strength. In the new codex, Acts of Faith are powerful abilities. To cast one, you spend a Faith Point, then see if you can roll over the act’s Devotion Value. Take The Passion:
With a Devotion Value of 5, you’d need to roll a 5 or over – at which point, you can proceed to turn your enemy into heretic-themed bolognese with your eviscerators. You’ll be able to influence this roll in a number of ways, particularly by using a Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus.
Unlike in the previous system, Acts of Faith are designed to scale up based on army size, with you getting an additional Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule in your force. This makes the Sisters of Battle incredibly flexible, with Acts of Faith, combined with Stratagems, allowing them to adjust their tactics on the fly.
This codex also offers Sisters of Battle a host of sub-faction rules with which to customise your army even further, representing the unique battle tactics employed by the various Orders Militant. Each gives your army a distinct flavour, as well as being pretty powerful. The Stoic Endurance of the Order of the Valorous Heart makes them even harder to kill, and is fantastic when combined with the 6+ invulnerable save that all Sisters of Battle have:
The Daughters of the Ebon Chalice, on the other hand, are particularly good at pulling off Acts of Faith, and make those trickier Acts that little bit easier to use:
There are six Order Convictions to choose from in total, giving you yet more options when building your army, and letting you represent your favourites from the lore as never before.
With Acts of Faith representing the divine powers of the Sisters of Battle and Order Convictions the character of their sub-factions, a host of Stratagems allow you to use their particular tactical abilities. Turns out it’s a lot more complicated than “burn anything that looks like a heretic”. Suffer Not The Witch, for instance, allows you to put the hurt on your chosen Psyker, whether it’s a Hive Tyrant or Magnus the Red himself!
The humble storm bolter is also getting a massive upgrade in the new codex, with squads of Dominions wielding them suddenly a very appealing prospect indeed, thanks to blessed bolts:
The new Stratagems are designed to interact with and complement the Acts of Faith, making the Sisters of Battle incredibly deep and tactically rewarding for a forward-thinking general. Vessel of the Emperor’s Will is a great example, maximising the effectiveness of your chosen Act of Faith:
Last, but not least, you’ll have a host of Warlord Traits and Relics with which to customise your Characters. These range from options that make a Canoness or Missionary even deadlier in close combat to some great support choices. By combining the Book of St Lucius and Indomitable Belief, for instance, you’ll have a key defensive lynchpin for the rest of your forces:
Alright – one more preview! Penitent Engines have got even better in the beta codex, and we can’t resist sharing just how. For one, these war machines now always fight twice in the Fight phase, and for another, they’ve been given an ability to ignore wounds:
Like the sound of the above? Think it’s too powerful – or not powerful enough? Well, like we said, we’re looking for your feedback! Everything you send us about this beta codex will help us balance Codex: Adepta Sororitas when it comes out in full.
You’ll be able to pre-order your copy of Chapter Approved this weekend. In the meantime, if you missed them, check out our previews of matched, open and narrative play.
Good to see some new stuff
Acts of Faith - hmm roll over a 5+ on a D6 to do anything - not a great start.
Mandragola wrote: But as it is, it's nearly always better to take 3 troops and another HQ, and then only have to take 3+ heavy support (or whatever) if you actually want to. Even for the Russes, how useful is it really to be obsec compared to having those 4 extra CPs?
I was thinking that the spearhead would be in addition to a brigade/battalion that had some infantry in it. So you basically pull out the tanks to get obsec and stick the specialism on them. Probably upgrade the original detachment with the infantry/artillery specialism, depending on what they do.
Mandragola wrote: But as it is, it's nearly always better to take 3 troops and another HQ, and then only have to take 3+ heavy support (or whatever) if you actually want to. Even for the Russes, how useful is it really to be obsec compared to having those 4 extra CPs?
I was thinking that the spearhead would be in addition to a brigade/battalion that had some infantry in it. So you basically pull out the tanks to get obsec and stick the specialism on them. Probably upgrade the original detachment with the infantry/artillery specialism, depending on what they do.
Interesting point. In the case of IG, the fact that there are seperate infantry and tank specialist detachments does provide a reason to split up your infantry and tanks.
Now is that a headline you ever thought you’d see on this website? Chapter Approved 2018 would be exciting enough if all it had was a tonne of rules for matched, open and narrative play – but it also contains the beta version of Codex: Adepta Sororitas.
Spoiler:
In a radical move, we’re looking to employ the biggest playtest group in the world to make sure the codex is as awesome as it can possibly be – that’s you guys!
The codex in Chapter Approved is but a taste of what we’ve got planned, but it’s already incredibly expansive, featuring a reworked and improved Acts of Faith system, Order Convictions, Stratagems, Warlord Traits and Relics. To help you prepare and stoke the fires of your hype, we’re previewing all of them today.
The Sisters of Battle are renowned for the sheer force of their faith, their belief so strong that it seems to allow them to overcome their physical limitations and perform incredible feats of strength. In the new codex, Acts of Faith are powerful abilities. To cast one, you spend a Faith Point, then see if you can roll over the act’s Devotion Value. Take The Passion:
With a Devotion Value of 5, you’d need to roll a 5 or over – at which point, you can proceed to turn your enemy into heretic-themed bolognese with your eviscerators. You’ll be able to influence this roll in a number of ways, particularly by using a Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus.
Unlike in the previous system, Acts of Faith are designed to scale up based on army size, with you getting an additional Faith Point for every ten models with the Acts of Faith rule in your force. This makes the Sisters of Battle incredibly flexible, with Acts of Faith, combined with Stratagems, allowing them to adjust their tactics on the fly.
This codex also offers Sisters of Battle a host of sub-faction rules with which to customise your army even further, representing the unique battle tactics employed by the various Orders Militant. Each gives your army a distinct flavour, as well as being pretty powerful. The Stoic Endurance of the Order of the Valorous Heart makes them even harder to kill, and is fantastic when combined with the 6+ invulnerable save that all Sisters of Battle have:
The Daughters of the Ebon Chalice, on the other hand, are particularly good at pulling off Acts of Faith, and make those trickier Acts that little bit easier to use:
There are six Order Convictions to choose from in total, giving you yet more options when building your army, and letting you represent your favourites from the lore as never before.
With Acts of Faith representing the divine powers of the Sisters of Battle and Order Convictions the character of their sub-factions, a host of Stratagems allow you to use their particular tactical abilities. Turns out it’s a lot more complicated than “burn anything that looks like a heretic”. Suffer Not The Witch, for instance, allows you to put the hurt on your chosen Psyker, whether it’s a Hive Tyrant or Magnus the Red himself!
The humble storm bolter is also getting a massive upgrade in the new codex, with squads of Dominions wielding them suddenly a very appealing prospect indeed, thanks to blessed bolts:
The new Stratagems are designed to interact with and complement the Acts of Faith, making the Sisters of Battle incredibly deep and tactically rewarding for a forward-thinking general. Vessel of the Emperor’s Will is a great example, maximising the effectiveness of your chosen Act of Faith:
Last, but not least, you’ll have a host of Warlord Traits and Relics with which to customise your Characters. These range from options that make a Canoness or Missionary even deadlier in close combat to some great support choices. By combining the Book of St Lucius and Indomitable Belief, for instance, you’ll have a key defensive lynchpin for the rest of your forces:
Alright – one more preview! Penitent Engines have got even better in the beta codex, and we can’t resist sharing just how. For one, these war machines now always fight twice in the Fight phase, and for another, they’ve been given an ability to ignore wounds:
Like the sound of the above? Think it’s too powerful – or not powerful enough? Well, like we said, we’re looking for your feedback! Everything you send us about this beta codex will help us balance Codex: Adepta Sororitas when it comes out in full.
You’ll be able to pre-order your copy of Chapter Approved this weekend. In the meantime, if you missed them, check out our previews of matched, open and narrative play.
Good to see some new stuff
Acts of Faith - hmm roll over a 5+ on a D6 to do anything - not a great start.
However - this is a rather nice strat.
Spoiler:
That Strategem seems a bit ridiculous.
Its powerrful but Acts of Faith seem to be hugely more difficult to do now as well - 5+ on a D6(?) for the one they have shown - Certainly nothing like Power from Pain. Hopefully there is still a reasonable chance of St C getting back up!
The Order Convictions are not Op at the moment - 6+++ or +1 to perform Acts of Faith.
Acts of Faith - hmm roll over a 5+ on a D6 to do anything - not a great start.
1) It's 5+ for the "Fight Twice" one - I assume that the others will have different devotion values, because otherwise what'd be the point of having devotion values in the first place.
2) Picking the right order will boost this to 4+
3) There are at least two other ways to skew that test in your favor, so it's probably possible to get re-rolls or boost it even further.
That stormbolter stratagem seems ridiculously overpowered. It even works for the entire phase, and I fully expect a ranged The Passion that'll work in the Shooting phase (Passion works in the Fight phase, unlike the current Acts of Faith)
Spoiler:
I wonder how many more posts I have to report until someone decides to take action on the constant derailment of this thread. This is the Chapter Approved 2018 rumors thread, why are most posts about Vigilus content or CP balance instead of CA?
Eihnlazer wrote: Blessed bolts is definitely OP. 1 CP is too cheap for that.
You absolutely shred vehicles and stuff without a 3++ with that.
Exactly. If they are in RF range, they will be outshooting practically any special weapon in the game by virtue of volume of fire paired with good AP and Damage.
Acts of Faith - hmm roll over a 5+ on a D6 to do anything - not a great start.
1) It's 5+ for the "Fight Twice" one - I assume that the others will have different devotion values, because otherwise what'd be the point of having devotion values in the first place.
2) Picking the right order will boost this to 4+
3) There are at least two other ways to skew that test in your favor, so it's probably possible to get re-rolls or boost it even further.
That stormbolter stratagem seems ridiculously overpowered. It even works for the entire phase, and I fully expect a ranged The Passion that'll work in the Shooting phase (Passion works in the Fight phase, unlike the current Acts of Faith)
Spoiler:
I wonder how many more posts I have to report until someone decides to take action on the constant derailment of this thread. This is the Chapter Approved 2018 rumors thread, why are most posts about Vigilus content or CP balance instead of CA?
I tried complained about Vigilus and was told its the same thing
Yeah its early days for the AOF but %= on a D6 is high, and the others could be higher.
I am hoping that characters, relics and standards boost the chance as well as the Order. The SB strat is just brutal - might not last.
Acts of Faith - hmm roll over a 5+ on a D6 to do anything - not a great start.
1) It's 5+ for the "Fight Twice" one - I assume that the others will have different devotion values, because otherwise what'd be the point of having devotion values in the first place.
2) Picking the right order will boost this to 4+
3) There are at least two other ways to skew that test in your favor, so it's probably possible to get re-rolls or boost it even further.
That stormbolter stratagem seems ridiculously overpowered. It even works for the entire phase, and I fully expect a ranged The Passion that'll work in the Shooting phase (Passion works in the Fight phase, unlike the current Acts of Faith)
Spoiler:
I wonder how many more posts I have to report until someone decides to take action on the constant derailment of this thread. This is the Chapter Approved 2018 rumors thread, why are most posts about Vigilus content or CP balance instead of CA?
I tried complained about Vigilus and was told its the same thing
Yeah its early days for the AOF but %= on a D6 is high, and the others could be higher.
I am hoping that characters, relics and standards boost the chance as well as the Order. The SB strat is just brutal - might not last.
Fighting twice is pretty much the most expensive ability anywhere, it's 3CP for most (if not all) armies. If they have an AoF that's BETTER than that I'd be VERY surprised.
The Simulacrum and the Dialogis WILL boost the roll, they already mentioned that:
You’ll be able to influence this roll in a number of ways, particularly by using a Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus.
Crimson wrote: The Vigilus stuff is here because for some reason mods closed the Vigilus thread...
Probably because it also devolved into that CP discussion. No excuse to do the same to another thread just because a mod stopped it in one place, ffs.
I wouldn't have an issue with the Vigilus stuff in here if it wasn't for that utterly pointless discussion. just get your own thread for that. (Not speaking to you personally, Crimson)
Crimson wrote: The Vigilus stuff is here because for some reason mods closed the Vigilus thread...
I mean it was specifically the weekender, which was over. Vigilus and Chapter Approved are coming out so close and have so much crossover that conversation changes between the two pretty easily.
Crimson wrote: The Vigilus stuff is here because for some reason mods closed the Vigilus thread...
maybe start a new one then and talk abut there! Or the other Vigilus threads maybe....
Fighting twice is pretty much the most expensive ability anywhere, it's 3CP for most (if not all) armies. If they have an AoF that's BETTER than that I'd be VERY surprised.
The Simulacrum and the Dialogis WILL boost the roll, they already mentioned that:
You’ll be able to influence this roll in a number of ways, particularly by using a Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus
Yeah but Stats are auto use if you have the CP, need more details on AOF
Yeah but Stats are auto use if you have the CP, need more details on AOF
Yeah, but all the other AoFs won't be auto use either, and I was just trying to say that fighting twice is the most expensive Strat, so it's going to be the hardest AoF to do. Other AoFs will either be the same or easier, most likely.
Spreelock wrote: So, penintent Engines Fight twice now, and with passion-thing, could they actually Fight 4x? Anyone?
Penitent Engines aren't actually Sisters of Battle, right? They're Adeptus Ministorum and don't get AoF.
And on top of that "getting to fight twice" and "getting to fight twice" don't exactly stack well. they still get to fight twice, no matter how often you give them permission to do so ;-)
Considering Psybolt Ammo is 2 CP that strat is... interesting. If it's gonna stay at 1 CP I'd expect the worse Psybolt Ammo to come down in cost to 1 CP.
Penitent Engines aren't actually Sisters of Battle, right? They're Adeptus Ministorum and don't get AoF.
Based on all the keywords shown so far, ADEPTA SORORITAS looks to be army wide. The preview also mentions Missionaries as an HQ choice. So I think everyone's ADEPTA SORORITAS but some units will be Faithful and some won't.
Penitent Engines aren't actually Sisters of Battle, right? They're Adeptus Ministorum and don't get AoF.
Based on all the keywords shown so far, ADEPTA SORORITAS looks to be army wide. The preview also mentions Missionaries as an HQ choice. So I think everyone's ADEPTA SORORITAS but some units will be Faithful and some won't.
ADEPTUS MINISTORUM is the current "connecting" keyword of the codex. ADEPTA SORORITAS is limited to Battle Sisters and their vehicles. the <ORDER> is even more limited than that, excluding Celestine and at least Dialogus and Hospitallers.
Both of the new Ministorum characters from Blackstone Fortress aren't ADEPTA SORORITAS either, but can be included in a Ministorum army as HQ and Elite (which includes Sisters of Battle).
I'm glad sisters are getting some nice stuff. I'm not gonna call OP on it until we see more about how their points costs and all work out. But it is a reminder of how many other factions have been left behind. Blessed bolts style shooting is like Thousand Sons and death watch territory, and even they don't have that kind of offensive power due to the price they pay for their models and lack of a way to get D2.
Pretty thrilled about how this is coming along! Lots of promising teases.
I think I like this system of the Acts of Faith a little better. An increased level of randomness isn't a bad thing, but I know a lot of players are going to gravitate towards builds that reduce the randomness as much as possible. I'm sure that Order that gives you +1 to acts of faith rolls will be very popular, unless there's another Order that has an even better bonus.
Eihnlazer wrote: Blessed bolts is definitely OP. 1 CP is too cheap for that.
You absolutely shred vehicles and stuff without a 3++ with that.
Exactly. If they are in RF range, they will be outshooting practically any special weapon in the game by virtue of volume of fire paired with good AP and Damage.
I suppose it's good that this is a beta codex, eh?
fresus wrote: I think part of the problem is that the intent, supposedly, is to allow you to run thematic armies.
But a thematic wraith army will be just wraith units (and spiritseers/boneseers), and will therefore not be able to fill CP-generating detachments. So to run the special wraith themed detachment, you are required to run a non-wraith army…
Ideally, these detachments should transform their specific, thematic units (wraithguards/blades, or windriders for the CWE ones) into troops, and at the same time forbid you from using some other non-thematic units to balance things out. These unit-selection restrictions should obviously extend to other detachments in the army.
That way they could really be used as the backbone of thematic lists.
Thematic list? I wish. Remember 7th edition? Aspectwing? Riptidewing? Windriders? And all the other crapwings where people just spammed whatever OP junk was best in their book? If 8th got something right, it's the fact spam lists are actually penalized somewhat as opposed to general ones (with either troop tax or reduced CPs limiting such stuff as all Dark Reaper lists to a degree until they are nerfed).
Now, if you want thematic lists, the 5th edition actually did that pretty well - take appropriate HQ (which often served as indirect balancing tax), get variant troops. Alas, that, along with far superior individual unit gear points system, was dropped once one of the few genuinely competent writers GW had left the company
Yeah if anything armies that are bringing troops and basic units to get CP is a good thing. There needs to be a downside to only taking the most beatsticky inits you have. If you want to bring a themed army cool, bring them in narrative and do stuff like that. In competitive, shockingly, only taking one or two narrow types of units is usually a major weakness.
Objective secured and CP give troops a reason to exist at all. Most armies would ignore their troop choices entirely if you let them because they only get 1 or 2 special weapons compared to their elite equivalent.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Considering Psybolt Ammo is 2 CP that strat is... interesting. If it's gonna stay at 1 CP I'd expect the worse Psybolt Ammo to come down in cost to 1 CP.
Psybolt ammo should just be a baseline rule. We didn't see any changes in the FAQ for GKs...so is there a chance we see much more in CA? Doubtful (aside from points) but could happen...especially if some rumours are saying full Smite is happening.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Yeah if anything armies that are bringing troops and basic units to get CP is a good thing. There needs to be a downside to only taking the most beatsticky inits you have. If you want to bring a themed army cool, bring them in narrative and do stuff like that. In competitive, shockingly, only taking one or two narrow types of units is usually a major weakness.
Objective secured and CP give troops a reason to exist at all. Most armies would ignore their troop choices entirely if you let them because they only get 1 or 2 special weapons compared to their elite equivalent.
This is not true at all. Troops, especially useful even outside the CP. They're vital for screening and holding objectives. Do you really think that terminators or wraith constructs are OP, and fielding a full armies of them needs to be punished?
As a 1ksons player I am very jealous of that blessed bolts stratagem and I have ap2 bolters already. Cant imagine how other sm/csm players feel about it.
The Salt Mine wrote: As a 1ksons player I am very jealous of that blessed bolts stratagem and I have ap2 bolters already. Cant imagine how other sm/csm players feel about it.
I think it's pretty comparable in power to Veterans of the Long War so I don't think we can be too upset about it. Loyalists will complain either way so that's irrelevant. :p
The Salt Mine wrote: As a 1ksons player I am very jealous of that blessed bolts stratagem and I have ap2 bolters already. Cant imagine how other sm/csm players feel about it.
Yeah, can't help compare our Infernal Bolts stratagem. :Yes please spend 1 CP to make a single combi-bolter on a vehicle -2 AP and no damage buff...
The Salt Mine wrote: As a 1ksons player I am very jealous of that blessed bolts stratagem and I have ap2 bolters already. Cant imagine how other sm/csm players feel about it.
I think it's pretty comparable in power to Veterans of the Long War so I don't think we can be too upset about it. Loyalists will complain either way so that's irrelevant. :p
Yeah, VOTLW is great. But a D2 strat for Rubrics and Scarabs for 1CP would be a great and flavorful way to get those units back on the table and make them useful. Smite spam rewards min sized units, whereas this would reward larger units since you could stack a ton of strats.
I mean I still feel like part of the problem is that you can use Veterans of the Long War on units that aren't Veterans of the Long War. Assuming for a moment a world where Rubrics and SOT's have their appropriate points cost you'd still probably use Vets on Tzaangors. If it can't be used on Tzaangors then those marine units suddenly look a lot better.
Arachnofiend wrote: I mean I still feel like part of the problem is that you can use Veterans of the Long War on units that aren't Veterans of the Long War. Assuming for a moment a world where Rubrics and SOT's have their appropriate points cost you'd still probably use Vets on Tzaangors. If it can't be used on Tzaangors then those marine units suddenly look a lot better.
I mean sure, it's good on them. But it's not enough to make them viable. If the rumored points changes are true, we might see 10 man scarab squads be worth using with it. they would certainly be strong. But they also get hard countered by lots of stuff thats already common on the tabletop (plasma, knight weapons.) And Rubrics need more if they are gonna be worth it, even at 16pts.
If there’s one thing that basically all loyal and heretic marine players share it’s that our marines are rubbish. This is because they can’t do any damage to anything.
If there’s one thing that basically all loyal and heretic marine players share it’s that our marines are rubbish. This is because they can’t do any damage to anything.
Haha yeah that's certainly true. Cultists are the best target for VotLW in most cases because of their squad size. If chaos marines were good, it'd be good on them.
There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it? The real issue is that there needs to be a distinction between marine and non-marine units. That doesn't currently exist, and that causes problems. But at the end of the day, the biggest problem is that marines are bad.
Lol if and when GW finally abandons mini marines you'll be better off just running your old army with sisters rules. Brothers of Battle anyone? Sisters already save points by not paying for the useless stats normal marines have, with the focus on the holy trinity of weapons they are going to wreck regular marine armies even more.
Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.
DanielFM wrote: Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.
It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.
DanielFM wrote: Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.
It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.
I mean that's not all you get for your 3cp though. Attacks and leadership are useful, and you have the trait/relic one time boosts which could be quite powerful.
DanielFM wrote: Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.
It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.
Yeah, the problem is not the Sisters being OP, it is the Stalkers being terrible.
DanielFM wrote: Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.
It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.
Yeah, the problem is not the Sisters being OP, it is the Stalkers being terrible.
Yeah, they definitely should be free. Or Heavy 2 and 1 pt. But definitely not Heavy 1 and 2 pts.
And ultimately, if you are after the +1 Attack and +1 Ld on your SBR squad, you aren't understanding the point of them being snipers. So that Stratagem is a waste.
Feeling my fallen to slaanesh sisters army idea coming to mind again. Don't rush out and buy loads of storm bolters that strat won't make it to the full release... 1cp is crazy for what 25 s4 ap-2 2dmg that's like 7 wounds off a rhino from one round of shooting from 5 models lol
Edit only at 12" hmmm maybe not that great and a bit situational on the target.... no fun for primaris on the end of it
casvalremdeikun wrote: Yeah, they definitely should be free. Or Heavy 2 and 1 pt. But definitely not Heavy 1 and 2 pts.
And ultimately, if you are after the +1 Attack and +1 Ld on your SBR squad, you aren't understanding the point of them being snipers. So that Stratagem is a waste.
To be honest its a situation of fluff>rules.
There are ways to make Intercessors "work". Saying throw your CP into them to make them slightly better in assault (but still not great) and have an ability they should have got base isn't one of them.
But maybe the other gun versions are much better.
1CP: "Full auto, your auto bolt rifles become assault 6 for this phase." (Is this good enough? For 3 CP? Probably not no.)
Now now, let’s not all get our knickers in a hyperbolic twist about the Sisters Stormbolter Stratagem. As usual, many of you are looking at the Stratagem in a vacuum or from the perspective of a another army that works in a mechanically different fashion.
Sisters have no access to Plasma or Lascannons. Their only ranged anti-tank is the Multi-Melta - considered one of the worst weapons in the Imperial arsenal - and their only close anti-tank is the Meltagun, which is considered a downgrade from a Plasma Gun. What this Stratagem is turn one unit of Dominions’ Stormbolters - a maximum of 5 weapons - into super-Plasma Guns for 1CP per turn. It allows a squad to kill half of a Rhino or 1.5 Custodes. It essentially lets an army short of versatile anti-heavy firepower temporarily turn one glass cannon unit into a very good anti-heavy unit. Doing so also means that Dominion unit isn’t loading up with Melta, which with the Rule of 3 in place harms the army’s anti-tank arsenal.
Their only anti tank is a multi melts? What about the d6 s8 -4 d3dmg exorcist missile launcher?! On a tank 30pts less than a Las pred with better toughness
Latro_ wrote: Their only anti tank is a multi melts? What about the d6 s8 -4 d3dmg exorcist missile launcher?! On a tank 30pts less than a Las pred with better toughness
It has less than half the firepower of a laspred, in the index at least. Similar to a lot of the early index tanks (like the original leman russ) in terms of being undergunned.
kombatwombat wrote: Now now, let’s not all get our knickers in a hyperbolic twist about the Sisters Stormbolter Stratagem. As usual, many of you are looking at the Stratagem in a vacuum or from the perspective of a another army that works in a mechanically different fashion.
Sisters have no access to Plasma or Lascannons. Their only ranged anti-tank is the Multi-Melta - considered one of the worst weapons in the Imperial arsenal - and their only close anti-tank is the Meltagun, which is considered a downgrade from a Plasma Gun. What this Stratagem is turn one unit of Dominions’ Stormbolters - a maximum of 5 weapons - into super-Plasma Guns for 1CP per turn. It allows a squad to kill half of a Rhino or 1.5 Custodes. It essentially lets an army short of versatile anti-heavy firepower temporarily turn one glass cannon unit into a very good anti-heavy unit. Doing so also means that Dominion unit isn’t loading up with Melta, which with the Rule of 3 in place harms the army’s anti-tank arsenal.
As ever, above all, context matters.
I don' t think we have enough information on the new sisters to make any kind of claim as to what their anti-tank options will be. They are getting an entirely new model line ala Deathguard and we all saw how much that changed the Deathguard up. They may well end up with new weapons we haven't seen before.
Latro_ wrote: Their only anti tank is a multi melts? What about the d6 s8 -4 d3dmg exorcist missile launcher?! On a tank 30pts less than a Las pred with better toughness
I should clarify, the only ranged anti-tank available to infantry (and hence not easily removed by your opponent’s anti-tank - ask Necrons about that one).
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The Salt Mine wrote: I don' t think we have enough information on the new sisters to make any kind of claim as to what their anti-tank options will be. They are getting an entirely new model line ala Deathguard and we all saw how much that changed the Deathguard up. They may well end up with new weapons we haven't seen before.
True but it’s a safe bet that Sororitas infantry won’t be giving up the Holy Trinity. If we end up with Lascannon/Plasma Sisters I’ll eat my words but I’m pretty confident.
There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?
While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.
There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?
While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.
In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.
I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.
There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?
While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.
In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.
I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.
Not that I'm complaining...
I agree with the name change.
To be fair, Chaos needs VotLW to be viable at the moment. If it only worked against imperium, they'd be in a lot of trouble in other matchups.
That’s a bad argument for both balance, and in general; they’re Imperial - they get access to the best of EVERYTHING.
Want Lascannons? Take a detachment of Guardsman/heavy weapons teams.
Never mind that my Ork walkers are now outclassed by a Penitence engine. Fight twice, free 5++, re-rolling to hits?
There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?
While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.
In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.
I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.
Not that I'm complaining...
I agree with the name change.
To be fair, Chaos needs VotLW to be viable at the moment. If it only worked against imperium, they'd be in a lot of trouble in other matchups.
Chaos isn’t viable anyway. It’s Codex: Cultists and Demon Princes. Every other unit is basically trash because GW doesn’t understand that durability in 8th doesn’t matter, only chaff + CP batteries to abuse stratagems.
There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?
While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.
In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.
I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.
Not that I'm complaining...
I agree with the name change.
To be fair, Chaos needs VotLW to be viable at the moment. If it only worked against imperium, they'd be in a lot of trouble in other matchups.
Chaos isn’t viable anyway. It’s Codex: Cultists and Demon Princes. Every other unit is basically trash because GW doesn’t understand that durability in 8th doesn’t matter, only chaff + CP batteries to abuse stratagems.
If we got some other Chaos Codex that was viable in other ways, then I'd be fine with it. But I wouldn't want it changed right now.
Although, overall, I'm not big on these stratagems or rules that only effect specific matchups unless the opponent has something corresponding. It messes up balance. For example, Cadia has anti chaos strats, but chaos doesn't have anything specific vs Guard. It just breaks that one matchup for no reason. And all chaos has Anti Loyalist stuff, but loyalist anti chaos options are more limited if my memory serves.
DanielFM wrote: Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.
So we're just totally ignoring every piece of context surrounding a rule in favor whining about rule that seems strong on paper, regardless of what units can use ot, the limitations on those units or any of the myriad of other things that make this a game?
Here let me try 'Whaaaaa, primaris get AP -4 2 damage guns! That's so OP, the need the nerfs!!!!'.
'So wait, EVERY Grey Knight can cause mortal wounds AND they can deepstrike!?!?? THEY NEED THE NERFS!!!'
That’s a bad argument for both balance, and in general; they’re Imperial - they get access to the best of EVERYTHING.
Want Lascannons? Take a detachment of Guardsman/heavy weapons teams.
Never mind that my Ork walkers are now outclassed by a Penitence engine. Fight twice, free 5++, re-rolling to hits?
Cmon now.
That's ridiculous. Think about what you're actually saying for ONE SECOND. 'Oh, that army can take everything, all they have to do is not play that army!' Hey, did you know Orkz are fine because they can just play Guard instead?
You're salty over nothing because an army you have NO IDEA about that has taken MASSIVE nerfs you wouldn't even understand got a unit that is MAYBE slightly better than a subpar unit in a totally unrelated codex and 1 solid but limited stratagem that looks amazing on paper if you don't know anything about the army.
And so what if they're better? If they're pointed correctly, who cares? There's not even a fluff reason penitent engines couldn't be better 1v1 than Ork walkers.
Knight armies are a joke without the alpha strike of CP batteries + stratagems. One unit of new Ork tankbustas deletes a knight fairly easily every turn, as do dark reapers. The only reason they're viable is because of guard detachments. If they don't do an absurd amount of damage in turn 1 then it's often game over for a Castellan.
The base unit durability of a knight is not great for it's cost, but CPs help a lot. Also they're the extreme end of the unit spectrum so bravo for picking a possible exception (as they do not make the rule). We were talking about power armor.
DanielFM wrote: Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.
So we're just totally ignoring every piece of context surrounding a rule in favor whining about rule that seems strong on paper, regardless of what units can use ot, the limitations on those units or any of the myriad of other things that make this a game?
Here let me try 'Whaaaaa, primaris get AP -4 2 damage guns! That's so OP, the need the nerfs!!!!'.
'So wait, EVERY Grey Knight can cause mortal wounds AND they can deepstrike!?!?? THEY NEED THE NERFS!!!'
Am I doing it right?
You want context? Okay.
3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...
Knight armies are a joke without the alpha strike of CP batteries + stratagems. One unit of new Ork tankbustas deletes a knight fairly easily every turn, as do dark reapers. The only reason they're viable is because of guard detachments. If they don't do an absurd amount of damage in turn 1 then it's often game over for a Castellan.
The base unit durability of a knight is not great for it's cost, but CPs help a lot. Also they're the extreme end of the unit spectrum so bravo for picking a possible exception (as they do not make the rule). We were talking about power armor.
Exactly. The CP Farm nerf made it so you basically have to choose between your Knights or your Slamguinus missiles.
I wouldn't necessarily say that toughness doesn't matter. There are certain stats that break that a little. The difference between toughness 2 and 3 hardly matters at all. 3 to 4 is somewhat better. Going from toughness 4 to 5 is a huge jump though. Most power fists don't wound you on a 2+, and the most numerous troop and weapon in the game drops to a 5+ to wound you.
cuda1179 wrote: I wouldn't necessarily say that toughness doesn't matter. There are certain stats that break that a little. The difference between toughness 2 and 3 hardly matters at all. 3 to 4 is somewhat better. Going from toughness 4 to 5 is a huge jump though. Most power fists don't wound you on a 2+, and the most numerous troop and weapon in the game drops to a 5+ to wound you.
Yeah, it's mainly the mid to high toughnesses that suffered. T5 to T6 usually means bugger all and T7 ain't much better.
Toughness isn't the thing hurting elites though, it's the AP system.
3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...
How's that context for ya?
Feel like I’m about to stick my head above the parapet entering into this particular pissing contest, but here goes...
You’re not looking at context, you’re taking two units in separate vacuums and comparing them. Context would involve something like looking at what tools their respective factions have available and what role each unit fills...
...at which point you might have to concede that a specialist kill-unit in an army with no access to plasma or any equivalent, equally effective ranged anti-elite firepower that forgoes its critical role of providing anti-tank for the army to gain temporary access to a Plasma Gun analogue, probably should have more firepower than the basic objective-holding troop unit of an army with the most prolific access to Plasma and a wide and varied arsenal of ranged heavy weaponry?
Kirasu wrote: GW doesn’t understand that durability in 8th doesn’t matter,.
Which is why nobody in their right mind would ever pick the Prophets of Flesh or Alaitoc traits over others. Why waste your army trait on improving something that doesn't matter, right?
3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...
How's that context for ya?
Feel like I’m about to stick my head above the parapet entering into this particular pissing contest, but here goes...
You’re not looking at context, you’re taking two units in separate vacuums and comparing them. Context would involve something like looking at what tools their respective factions have available and what role each unit fills...
...at which point you might have to concede that a specialist kill-unit in an army with no access to plasma or any equivalent, equally effective ranged anti-elite firepower that forgoes its critical role of providing anti-tank for the army to gain temporary access to a Plasma Gun analogue, probably should have more firepower than the basic objective-holding troop unit of an army with the most prolific access to Plasma and a wide and varied arsenal of ranged heavy weaponry?
I’m gonna call that a non-answer. Faction identity is a thing.
‘I play Custodes. Long range firepower is a challenge.’
‘You should replace your Dreadnought with some Guard artillery, that’ll fix it.’
‘Great. I’m struggling with board control, though.’
‘You should replace some of your Guardians with Infantry Squads, that’ll fix it.’
‘Ok cool. I’m finding it hard to kill big stuff now.’
‘You should replace your Terminators with a Knight Castellan.’
‘Fair enough. Wait, now I’m struggling to spot the Custodes in my army. I didn’t want to play Knights and Gurd, I wanted to play Custodes.’
‘You can take Jetbike Captains.’
‘This isn’t the game I signed up for...’
3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...
How's that context for ya?
Feel like I’m about to stick my head above the parapet entering into this particular pissing contest, but here goes...
You’re not looking at context, you’re taking two units in separate vacuums and comparing them. Context would involve something like looking at what tools their respective factions have available and what role each unit fills...
...at which point you might have to concede that a specialist kill-unit in an army with no access to plasma or any equivalent, equally effective ranged anti-elite firepower that forgoes its critical role of providing anti-tank for the army to gain temporary access to a Plasma Gun analogue, probably should have more firepower than the basic objective-holding troop unit of an army with the most prolific access to Plasma and a wide and varied arsenal of ranged heavy weaponry?
No, that’s crazy talk...
You already know the tools those armies have, and they're basically the same tools.
Also the army with the most prolific access to Plasma is Imperial Guard. I love you implied Marines though. It was so funny when you showed you haven't an idea what you're talking about!
I’m gonna call that a non-answer. Faction identity is a thing.
‘I play Custodes. Long range firepower is a challenge.’
‘You should replace your Dreadnought with some Guard artillery, that’ll fix it.’
‘Great. I’m struggling with board control, though.’
‘You should replace some of your Guardians with Infantry Squads, that’ll fix it.’
‘Ok cool. I’m finding it hard to kill big stuff now.’
‘You should replace your Terminators with a Knight Castellan.’
‘Fair enough. Wait, now I’m struggling to spot the Custodes in my army. I didn’t want to play Knights and Gurd, I wanted to play Custodes.’
‘You can take Jetbike Captains.’
‘This isn’t the game I signed up for...’
Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You already know the tools those armies have, and they're basically the same tools.
Also the army with the most prolific access to Plasma is Imperial Guard. I love you implied Marines though. It was so funny when you showed you haven't an idea what you're talking about!
Spoken like someone who has no idea about Sisters of Battle. But yeah thanks for that, I’ll go pack my Celestians into a Land Raider, and my Repentia into a Stormraven, then I’ll use Lascannons for anti-tank, plasma for general duties, Grav for anti-elites, Terminators for shock assault duties and bikes to tie up the flanks. Cos y’know, we have basically the same tools as Marines.
Also, a quick canter through the Guard Codex shows me 18 datasheets that can take plasma. An equally brief run through the Marine Codex shows me 31 datasheets that can take plasma.
If you’re going to be an ass, at least have the dignity to be right.
Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.
Kinda missed the point of what I was saying, but anyway - mono Custodes work just fine up to and including a mildly competitive meta. When the Talons IA book drops they’ll be a fully fledged faction.
I’m gonna call that a non-answer. Faction identity is a thing.
‘I play Custodes. Long range firepower is a challenge.’
‘You should replace your Dreadnought with some Guard artillery, that’ll fix it.’
‘Great. I’m struggling with board control, though.’
‘You should replace some of your Guardians with Infantry Squads, that’ll fix it.’
‘Ok cool. I’m finding it hard to kill big stuff now.’
‘You should replace your Terminators with a Knight Castellan.’
‘Fair enough. Wait, now I’m struggling to spot the Custodes in my army. I didn’t want to play Knights and Gurd, I wanted to play Custodes.’
‘You can take Jetbike Captains.’
‘This isn’t the game I signed up for...’
No it's not a thing for imperium factions. You look at what the best units are from all 11 factions and cherry pick them to fill the roles you need most efficiently. That is the game right now. There is no penalty for doing so - so not doing so is just suboptimal.
‘Not being a thing’ is not synonymous with ‘not being ideal for an optimised tournament list’. The game exists outside of the top tables at LVO.
But I fervently believe there should be a downside to Soup. Not enough to make it unviable, but enough for it to be an option rather than an auto-take.
I think you and I are very much on the same page. By ‘faction identity is a thing’ I meant that it’s a part of the game’s design, and one that a huge chunk of the community like.
kombatwombat wrote: I think you and I are very much on the same page. By ‘faction identity is a thing’ I meant that it’s a part of the game’s design, and one that a huge chunk of the community like.
Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.
But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TSDPs) and it would be a very competitive list.
Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.
But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TSDPs) and it would be a very competitive list.
And if allies wouldn't exist your Ad Mech wouldn't be any better against Drukhari or Orks. Your problem is not the allies, your problem is that Ad Mech sucks.
Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.
But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TSDPs) and it would be a very competitive list.
And if allies wouldn't exist your Ad Mech wouldn't be any better against Drukhari or Orks. Your problem is not the allies, your problem is that Ad Mech sucks.
I know AdMech sucks. They're only above Grey Knights kinda by default. But "your army sucks" is a much different feeling than "go buy splodges of 5 more armies to compete". AdMech with allies can compete. But since I'll never buy any other models from other factions - they're unplayble in competitive games to me. No matter how much they get buffed(within reason), if I face an allied imperium army with my pure admech army - I will be at an objective disadvantage until either soup is reigned or pure armies are given something for staying pure.
Knight armies are a joke without the alpha strike of CP batteries + stratagems. One unit of new Ork tankbustas deletes a knight fairly easily every turn, as do dark reapers. The only reason they're viable is because of guard detachments. If they don't do an absurd amount of damage in turn 1 then it's often game over for a Castellan.
The base unit durability of a knight is not great for it's cost, but CPs help a lot. Also they're the extreme end of the unit spectrum so bravo for picking a possible exception (as they do not make the rule). We were talking about power armor.
People say knight's are durable, they really arn't without having strategums, relics, traits all stacked up.
Which needs Guard CP to keep that up for more than a turn and can only be done to 1 knight at a time.
Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.
But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TSDPs) and it would be a very competitive list.
And if allies wouldn't exist your Ad Mech wouldn't be any better against Drukhari or Orks. Your problem is not the allies, your problem is that Ad Mech sucks.
I know AdMech sucks. They're only above Grey Knights kinda by default. But "your army sucks" is a much different feeling than "go buy splodges of 5 more armies to compete". AdMech with allies can compete. But since I'll never buy any other models from other factions - they're unplayble in competitive games to me. No matter how much they get buffed(within reason), if I face an allied imperium army with my pure admech army - I will be at an objective disadvantage until either soup is reigned or pure armies are given something for staying pure.
At least Admech can use Knights and this wouldnt count as Soup...try using Necrons without spamming And still auto lose to some matchups.
PS: Dont want to mock you...I just feel your pain...
At least Admech can use Knights and this wouldnt count as Soup...try using Necrons without spamming And still auto lose to some matchups.
PS: Dont want to mock you...I just feel your pain...
Wanna look at my signature there, friend? I sure picked some winners for 8th ed (especially until the ork codex)
Though I still feel a lot better about Necrons than AdMech. Maybe it's just me but "this army sucks" is so much better than "just buy other armies that you like less so this army doesn't suck"
Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.
Apparently "designed for allies in mind" means "most of their units suck and we won't bother trying to fix it because they can just ally Guard in"?
More like just replace 90% of your army with Guard who'll do the same damage for less while having more chaff and CP. "Downsides this is the Astra Militarum in 8th edition you don't get downsides."
Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.
Apparently "designed for allies in mind" means "most of their units suck and we won't bother trying to fix it because they can just ally Guard in"?
More like just replace 90% of your army with Guard who'll do the same damage for less while having more chaff and CP. "Downsides this is the Astra Militarum in 8th edition you don't get downsides."
The downside of Astra Militarum is that a 4+ shooting army autoloses to -1/-2/-3 to hit eldar
At least Admech can use Knights and this wouldnt count as Soup...try using Necrons without spamming And still auto lose to some matchups.
PS: Dont want to mock you...I just feel your pain...
Wanna look at my signature there, friend? I sure picked some winners for 8th ed (especially until the ork codex)
Though I still feel a lot better about Necrons than AdMech. Maybe it's just me but "this army sucks" is so much better than "just buy other armies that you like less so this army doesn't suck"
Yee, with Necrons people cant tell you that because we have no allies we just suck on our own hahaha
Regarding allies, and people feeling they’re not playing the same army: it’s called modeling, and painting - there’s no reason your Guardsman allies couldn’t be painted and modeled to be in theme and army with whoever you’re playing as.
Also, Penintent Engines better be t3 - there a human stuck on a piece of metal, not a super human. They also better have 6+ save, since their entirely unarmored.
fe40k wrote: Regarding allies, and people feeling they’re not playing the same army: it’s called modeling, and painting - there’s no reason your Guardsman allies couldn’t be painted and modeled to be in theme and army with whoever you’re playing as.
Also, Penintent Engines better be t3 - there a human stuck on a piece of metal, not a super human. They also better have 6+ save, since their entirely unarmored.
fe40k wrote: Regarding allies, and people feeling they’re not playing the same army: it’s called modeling, and painting - there’s no reason your Guardsman allies couldn’t be painted and modeled to be in theme and army with whoever you’re playing as.
Also, Penintent Engines better be t3 - there a human stuck on a piece of metal, not a super human. They also better have 6+ save, since their entirely unarmored.
Not all shots hit the driver...
Yeah by that logic Leman Russes should be T4 6+, since they have fuel barrels and tracks.
fe40k wrote: Regarding allies, and people feeling they’re not playing the same army: it’s called modeling, and painting - there’s no reason your Guardsman allies couldn’t be painted and modeled to be in theme and army with whoever you’re playing as.
Also, Penintent Engines better be t3 - there a human stuck on a piece of metal, not a super human. They also better have 6+ save, since their entirely unarmored.
Not all shots hit the driver...
Yeah by that logic Leman Russes should be T4 6+, since they have fuel barrels and tracks.
Dreadknights will need to go to T4 too, since the marine is just hanging out in his baby carrier.
Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.
Apparently "designed for allies in mind" means "most of their units suck and we won't bother trying to fix it because they can just ally Guard in"?
More like just replace 90% of your army with Guard who'll do the same damage for less while having more chaff and CP. "Downsides this is the Astra Militarum in 8th edition you don't get downsides."
The downside of Astra Militarum is that a 4+ shooting army autoloses to -1/-2/-3 to hit eldar
Which on the topic of the thread are roumered to be going the way of the dodo with CA 2018 finally. Also stacked - to hit armies hurt more than Guard, so thank you, next excuse please.
Here come some leaks:
Knights had 0 points changes. There is no section for them at all.
Chaos knights got point drops They’re cheaper than imperial. Double Gatling Knight is about 100 pts cheaper. Avenger Gatling cannons dropped 20 pts each. There’s a chaos knights index inside CA all the greater demons dropped by 100 pts or so
Demons in general went down “a ton”
No changes to tzaangors
Cultists are 5 points.
Dark Eldar: 0 changes
Shining Spears and reapers up a small amount, “everything else” is cheaper. there are no “new rules” that nerf soulburst or anything
Harlequin fusion pistols dropped to 7 pts
Tau got drops. Everything is dirt cheap.
"The 8" are laughably bad
It looks like grey knights and Tsons are still on baby’s first smite
GK terminators are cheap now
Death Guard players are gonna be happy
Blight haulers are down 30 pts, among other things.
Marines are cheaper, Primaris in particular
guardsmen are 5 pts
No update on Necrons because the guy didn't look at them since he doesn't care about them :(
Which on the topic of tge tread are roumered to be going the way of the dodo with CA 2018 finally. Also stacked - to hit armies hurt more than Guard, so thank you, next excuse please.
I was the source of the rumor: Reece accidentally said Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Stygies won't be benefitting from the cover stratagem. It was just that - a rumor.
The leak right now is that Alaitoc has NOT CHANGED. Trusted source.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Wanna look at my signature there, friend? I sure picked some winners for 8th ed (especially until the ork codex)
Eh, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and sometimes you are on the bottom. I've played Guard since our first 3rd edition codex. We have been at times the worst and best. Necrons and Dark Eldar had times that they were laughably bad, not getting a codex for insane amounts of time. Then again, all three of these have been the best army at some points as well. It is just the way of things. At least iterations seem to be much faster these days.
Arachnofiend wrote: Wait, are you telling us that they changed the -1 to hit trait for every faction except the one it's most abusive in?
Like there's 1% chance that this will happen. Reece didn't mention Alaitoc and mentioned the other 3. Oh god no. GW can't be that out of touch.
If they do that... the paris riots will have nothing on this
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here come some leaks:
Knights had 0 points changes. There is no section for them at all.
Chaos knights got point drops They’re cheaper than imperial. Double Gatling Knight is about 100 pts cheaper. Avenger Gatling cannons dropped 20 pts each. There’s a chaos knights index inside CA all the greater demons dropped by 100 pts or so
Demons in general went down “a ton”
No changes to tzaangors
Cultists are 5 points.
Dark Eldar: 0 changes
Shining Spears and reapers up a small amount, “everything else” is cheaper. there are no “new rules” that nerf soulburst or anything
Harlequin fusion pistols dropped to 7 pts
Tau got drops. Everything is dirt cheap.
"The 8" are laughably bad
It looks like grey knights and Tsons are still on baby’s first smite
GK terminators are cheap now
Death Guard players are gonna be happy
Blight haulers are down 30 pts, among other things.
Marines are cheaper, Primaris in particular
guardsmen are 5 pts
No update on Necrons because the guy didn't look at them since he doesn't care about them :(
Which on the topic of tge tread are roumered to be going the way of the dodo with CA 2018 finally. Also stacked - to hit armies hurt more than Guard, so thank you, next excuse please.
I was the source of the rumor: Reece accidentally said Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Stygies won't be benefitting from the cover stratagem. It was just that - a rumor.
The leak right now is that Alaitoc has NOT CHANGED. Trusted source.
Good to see an update but damn do those changes not inspire confidence that GW understand why people complain about the cost of certain units etc and why they do use the units they do.
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lonewolf81 wrote: guardsmen and cultists went 5 points (which is good btw) and kabalites stayed 6pts ....pfff
Thats because they aren't undercosted, their just Eldar obviously
Damn, I really hoped several units in the codex got buffed. Hellions, wyches and cronos in particular deserved some love. Same for our HQs that are probably the worst ones in the entire 40k universe.
I wonder how primaris sales have been up to this point? I have seen a lot of people really like the models and pick them up for that reason. Not too many people are enthusiastic about the rules though. A significant point reduction could drastically increase sales. Same with the repulsor.
I'll get to read it and Vigilus Tuesday at the earliest, can't wait to verify all these leaks and rumours so far. There's been an underwhelming amount this year.
aracersss wrote: sounds like more of the same compiled plus added fake bs
I mean we'll see in a few hours but I don't think that's fake.
I do love that these pre-NDA leaks are always like bigfoot sightings. Nobody at the time of encountering a book thinks "I shall snap a picture of this for my own use later" or "let me grab a pencil and a piece of paper so i can remember some of these numbers here.
aracersss wrote: sounds like more of the same compiled plus added fake bs
I mean we'll see in a few hours but I don't think that's fake.
I do love that these pre-NDA leaks are always like bigfoot sightings. Nobody at the time of encountering a book thinks "I shall snap a picture of this for my own use later" or "let me grab a pencil and a piece of paper so i can remember some of these numbers here.
Because that is a good way to not be allowed to see future books.
aracersss wrote: sounds like more of the same compiled plus added fake bs
I mean we'll see in a few hours but I don't think that's fake.
I do love that these pre-NDA leaks are always like bigfoot sightings. Nobody at the time of encountering a book thinks "I shall snap a picture of this for my own use later" or "let me grab a pencil and a piece of paper so i can remember some of these numbers here.
Well they usually have a reason for that In this case too apparently.
I wonder how primaris sales have been up to this point? I have seen a lot of people really like the models and pick them up for that reason. Not too many people are enthusiastic about the rules though. A significant point reduction could drastically increase sales. Same with the repulsor.
Actually what does that have to do with anything? Primaris are obviously overcosted. Fixing that is the right thing to do, not a shady tactic to get people to buy more of them.
That said, if it's true that a chaos knight with two avengers is getting a points reduction then there won't be a lot of point putting Primaris on the battlefield. Avengers are already obviously the best gun and if GW doesn't see that then they are blind.
I wonder how primaris sales have been up to this point? I have seen a lot of people really like the models and pick them up for that reason. Not too many people are enthusiastic about the rules though. A significant point reduction could drastically increase sales. Same with the repulsor.
Actually what does that have to do with anything? Primaris are obviously overcosted. Fixing that is the right thing to do, not a shady tactic to get people to buy more of them.
That said, if it's true that a chaos knight with two avengers is getting a points reduction then there won't be a lot of point putting Primaris on the battlefield. Avengers are already obviously the best gun and if GW doesn't see that then they are blind.
I wonder if the pre-release copies of chapter approved have different factions' adjustments in them. One person sees the adjustments for custodes, space marines, and death guard, another person sees them for another few factions, etc, and that's the way they keep track of who's got what.
"oh, someone on the internet said Drukhari got no changes, we know that's jimmyjohn send out the culexus assassins."
Mandragola wrote: Actually what does that have to do with anything? Primaris are obviously overcosted. Fixing that is the right thing to do, not a shady tactic to get people to buy more of them.
I wasn't implying it was a shady tactic to increase sales. I was wondering if they would see a significant increase in sales by balancing primaris, or if their sales have been high enough already that it doesn't really matter. I'm sure point reductions help sales, but whether or not the increase is significant is interesting.
lonewolf81 wrote: guardsmen and cultists went 5 points (which is good btw) and kabalites stayed 6pts ....pfff
Do you know what Guardsmen and Cultists have that Kabalites don't? Force multipliers, pretty much the best Kabalites can get is is the standard re-roll 1's to hit, and maybe wound if you're going for a very unusual set up. They do not have psychic powers (anyone that says Doom is an idiot, you are not wasting that on Kabalites), stratagems or orders, the only actual advantage they have is 3+ to hit and a gun that whilst better against T4+ is ridiculously inefficient against T3 hordes.
lonewolf81 wrote: guardsmen and cultists went 5 points (which is good btw) and kabalites stayed 6pts ....pfff
Do you know what Guardsmen and Cultists have that Kabalites don't? Force multipliers, pretty much the best Kabalites can get is is the standard re-roll 1's to hit, and maybe wound if you're going for a very unusual set up. They do not have psychic powers (anyone that says Doom is an idiot, you are not wasting that on Kabalites), stratagems or orders, the only actual advantage they have is 3+ to hit and a gun that whilst better against T4+ is ridiculously inefficient against T3 hordes.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here come some leaks:
Knights had 0 points changes. There is no section for them at all.
Chaos knights got point drops They’re cheaper than imperial. Double Gatling Knight is about 100 pts cheaper. Avenger Gatling cannons dropped 20 pts each. There’s a chaos knights index inside CA all the greater demons dropped by 100 pts or so
Demons in general went down “a ton”
A Chaos Knights index? Not that I wouldn't like that but I think if it were the case GW should have already teased it. It's quite a big one. And because of that I don't find it very convincing.
Also, we've heard about the greater Daemons, but the rest of the daemons aside slaanesh seem to be in a good spot, no?
I wonder if there's Chaos marine changes, they sorely need it.
From those leaks though, didn't another leak (also supposedly from a reliable source) say that Tzaangor went up in points?
If the ones above are legit, then yeah I'm convinced GW does not really understand what the problem is, they're just throwing some minor changes in there and hoping the complaints go away. Isn't Reece and co supposed to be giving feedback/testing these? Wouldn't they be telling GW that they're missing the issue completely?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here come some leaks:
Knights had 0 points changes. There is no section for them at all.
Chaos knights got point drops They’re cheaper than imperial. Double Gatling Knight is about 100 pts cheaper. Avenger Gatling cannons dropped 20 pts each. There’s a chaos knights index inside CA all the greater demons dropped by 100 pts or so
Demons in general went down “a ton”
A Chaos Knights index? Not that I wouldn't like that but I think if it were the case GW should have already teased it. It's quite a big one. And because of that I don't find it very convincing.
Also, we've heard about the greater Daemons, but the rest of the daemons aside slaanesh seem to be in a good spot, no?
Index released back in June. They're reprinting it for CA.
lonewolf81 wrote: guardsmen and cultists went 5 points (which is good btw) and kabalites stayed 6pts ....pfff
Do you know what Guardsmen and Cultists have that Kabalites don't? Force multipliers, pretty much the best Kabalites can get is is the standard re-roll 1's to hit, and maybe wound if you're going for a very unusual set up. They do not have psychic powers (anyone that says Doom is an idiot, you are not wasting that on Kabalites), stratagems or orders, the only actual advantage they have is 3+ to hit and a gun that whilst better against T4+ is ridiculously inefficient against T3 hordes.
You're not wasting Doom and Jinx on Kabalites because you don't cast it on them. If you've debuffed a non-vehicle target they get just as much benefit from those spells as the rest of your list.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: A Chaos Knights index? Not that I wouldn't like that but I think if it were the case GW should have already teased it. It's quite a big one. And because of that I don't find it very convincing
lonewolf81 wrote: guardsmen and cultists went 5 points (which is good btw) and kabalites stayed 6pts ....pfff
Do you know what Guardsmen and Cultists have that Kabalites don't? Force multipliers, pretty much the best Kabalites can get is is the standard re-roll 1's to hit, and maybe wound if you're going for a very unusual set up. They do not have psychic powers (anyone that says Doom is an idiot, you are not wasting that on Kabalites), stratagems or orders, the only actual advantage they have is 3+ to hit and a gun that whilst better against T4+ is ridiculously inefficient against T3 hordes.
Kabalites are undercosted for their statline (so are guardsmen and cultists). Also almost the whole dark eldar codex is undercosted (venoms, razorwings, ravagers, grotesques, talos , some weapon options etc)
Sgt. Cortez wrote: A Chaos Knights index? Not that I wouldn't like that but I think if it were the case GW should have already teased it. It's quite a big one. And because of that I don't find it very convincing
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here come some leaks:
Knights had 0 points changes. There is no section for them at all.
Chaos knights got point drops They’re cheaper than imperial. Double Gatling Knight is about 100 pts cheaper. Avenger Gatling cannons dropped 20 pts each. There’s a chaos knights index inside CA all the greater demons dropped by 100 pts or so
Demons in general went down “a ton”
A Chaos Knights index? Not that I wouldn't like that but I think if it were the case GW should have already teased it. It's quite a big one. And because of that I don't find it very convincing.
Also, we've heard about the greater Daemons, but the rest of the daemons aside slaanesh seem to be in a good spot, no?
They already did say theyd be putting the PDF into print.
Also, we've heard about the greater Daemons, but the rest of the daemons aside slaanesh seem to be in a good spot, no?
The daemons codex is troops and character HQs. That's it. Everything else in unplayble.
Ehhh there's a few exceptions - I like flamers of tzeench and exalted flamers, and nurgle players obviously like their blight drones but for the most part, yeah, daemon elites are baaaaaaaaad.
Mandragola wrote: Actually what does that have to do with anything? Primaris are obviously overcosted. Fixing that is the right thing to do, not a shady tactic to get people to buy more of them.
I wasn't implying it was a shady tactic to increase sales. I was wondering if they would see a significant increase in sales by balancing primaris, or if their sales have been high enough already that it doesn't really matter. I'm sure point reductions help sales, but whether or not the increase is significant is interesting.
lonewolf81 wrote: guardsmen and cultists went 5 points (which is good btw) and kabalites stayed 6pts ....pfff
Do you know what Guardsmen and Cultists have that Kabalites don't? Force multipliers, pretty much the best Kabalites can get is is the standard re-roll 1's to hit, and maybe wound if you're going for a very unusual set up. They do not have psychic powers (anyone that says Doom is an idiot, you are not wasting that on Kabalites), stratagems or orders, the only actual advantage they have is 3+ to hit and a gun that whilst better against T4+ is ridiculously inefficient against T3 hordes.
Kabalites are undercosted for their statline (so are guardsmen and cultists). Also almost the whole dark eldar codex is undercosted (venoms, razorwings, ravagers, grotesques, talos , some weapon options etc)
Those are actually a pretty small chunk of the Codex, which is what makes this rumour a bit disappointing. Stuff like Incubi, Beasts, the Court of the Archon and Hellions all get to stay on the shelf.
Points drops are nice for the GKs but unless CA also has a rule change or two, it will change almost nothing on GK viability... ah well, may end up selling my 5k of GKs after al *sigh*
chnmmr wrote: Points drops are nice for the GKs but unless CA also has a rule change or two, it will change almost nothing on GK viability... ah well, may end up selling my 5k of GKs after al *sigh*
They need a proper psychic phase.
Apparently GK are getting full smite and some other buffs to their powers. That's one of the rumors, anyway. Dunno if GW confirmed it or not.
I wonder how primaris sales have been up to this point? I have seen a lot of people really like the models and pick them up for that reason. Not too many people are enthusiastic about the rules though. A significant point reduction could drastically increase sales. Same with the repulsor.
I have to admit, I started a new Ultramarine force simply because of the Primaris. I made it on the cheap using only heavily discounted starter sets, spare bits, and random kits I had laying around that I otherwise couldn't use (my wife once got me a Storm Talon, and I played Dark Angels, Deathwatch, and pre-codex Space Wolves and Grey Knights).
3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...
How's that context for ya?
This is hogwash.
In the Haarken debate you told people to wait for the details.
Here you're not waiting for the details.
Additionally, if you can't see the difference between a gun that is 36" and can target characters from one that is 24" then I don't know what to tell you.
I like that there's a stratagem for each version of the intercessors. in scepters are able to be taken as part of the Detachment but they kind of don't have any sort of bonus so that kind of blows. But I'm probably going to be changing a couple of my intercessor squads to have stalker bolt rifles now.
Also almost the whole dark eldar codex is undercosted (venoms, razorwings, ravagers, grotesques, talos , some weapon options etc)
I think it's kind the opposite. Only a few things are priced appropriately or slightly undercosted while the major part of the codex is overcosted, sometimes even extremely overcosted.
I have to admit, I started a new Ultramarine force simply because of the Primaris. I made it on the cheap using only heavily discounted starter sets, spare bits, and random kits I had laying around that I otherwise couldn't use (my wife once got me a Storm Talon, and I played Dark Angels, Deathwatch, and pre-codex Space Wolves and Grey Knights).
If the Primaris kits do not sell, the reason is that in their wisdom the writers made the standard weapon options for both Intercessors and the Hellblasters the flat out best choice, so there is little incentive to get the more expensive multipart kits when you can just build your army out of the cheap starter box guys.
Unfortunate. Hopefully it means love forthcoming at a later date. As a Death Guard player though, Plague Marines down to 16, Entropy Cannon down to 15, Blight-haulers down a bunch, Blightlords down 4 it looks like. I am happy with that.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I like that there's a stratagem for each version of the intercessors. in scepters are able to be taken as part of the Detachment but they kind of don't have any sort of bonus so that kind of blows. But I'm probably going to be changing a couple of my intercessor squads to have stalker bolt rifles now.
Oh for feth's sake, the standard rifle stratagem is easily the best! Now there is even less reason to ever take the auto bolt rifles!
Emperor's Wrath doesn't include manticores, which makes me sad. I guess my 5th ed decision to got for manticores over basilisks comes back to haunt me. Would be a bit powerful to get a bonus manticore shot. Oh well, it doesn't look super amazing so maybe the infantry one will be a better fit. 2cp for a basilisk shot seems expensive to me. I do like the +1ap and ignore cover stuff though. MoO with warlord and relic with 3x basilisk has a nice theme to it.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I like that there's a stratagem for each version of the intercessors. in scepters are able to be taken as part of the Detachment but they kind of don't have any sort of bonus so that kind of blows. But I'm probably going to be changing a couple of my intercessor squads to have stalker bolt rifles now.
Oh for feth's sake, the standard rifle stratagem is easily the best! Now there is even less reason to ever take the auto bolt rifles!
I know. Auto-hitting is nothing when the other guys his on 3s with four shots with AP-1. At least the Stalker Bolt Rifle Stratagem allows you to do something you otherwise couldn't.
Overall, most of the point reductions look great. Power Fists going down to 9 pts and intercessors going down a point each just made equipping them for dual-function even better.
2 points storm shields?????? seriously? Missile launchers, plasma guns, flamers, power fists... all got cheaper. Twin weapons cost are not 2x single weapon's cost anymore
I'd expect something like that also for other armies. Especially orks, at this point a 13ppm power klaw is not acceptable when the imperium equivalent is just 9. I know they should be out of CA though.
Glad they didn't lowered ass can razorbacks and I like drop pods being just 65 points. The land raider, I'm looking at the crusader, should be decent enough with this price.
Blackie wrote: 2 points storm shields?????? seriously? Missile launchers, plasma guns, flamers, power fists... all got cheaper. Twin weapons cost are not 2x single weapon's cost anymore.
I'd expect something like that also for other armies. Especially orks, at this point a 13ppm power klaw is not acceptable when the imperium equivalent is just 9. I know they should be out of CA though.
Twin weapons SHOULDN'T be twice the price of the individual weapon. Two Lascannons are better than one Twin Lascannon.
Blackie wrote: 2 points storm shields?????? seriously? Missile launchers, plasma guns, flamers, power fists... all got cheaper. Twin weapons cost are not 2x single weapon's cost anymore.
I'd expect something like that also for other armies. Especially orks, at this point a 13ppm power klaw is not acceptable when the imperium equivalent is just 9. I know they should be out of CA though.
Twin weapons SHOULDN'T be twice the price of the individual weapon. Two Lascannons are better than one Twin Lascannon.
Yeah, but all twin ork guns are 2x the single weapon. And the ork codex is pretty new.
Blackie wrote: 2 points storm shields?????? seriously? Missile launchers, plasma guns, flamers, power fists... all got cheaper. Twin weapons cost are not 2x single weapon's cost anymore.
I'd expect something like that also for other armies. Especially orks, at this point a 13ppm power klaw is not acceptable when the imperium equivalent is just 9. I know they should be out of CA though.
Twin weapons SHOULDN'T be twice the price of the individual weapon. Two Lascannons are better than one Twin Lascannon.
Sometimes they are, sometimes not. Singles can split fire, twins can benefit from special rules that buff one weapon.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You already know the tools those armies have, and they're basically the same tools.
Also the army with the most prolific access to Plasma is Imperial Guard. I love you implied Marines though. It was so funny when you showed you haven't an idea what you're talking about!
Spoken like someone who has no idea about Sisters of Battle. But yeah thanks for that, I’ll go pack my Celestians into a Land Raider, and my Repentia into a Stormraven, then I’ll use Lascannons for anti-tank, plasma for general duties, Grav for anti-elites, Terminators for shock assault duties and bikes to tie up the flanks. Cos y’know, we have basically the same tools as Marines.
Also, a quick canter through the Guard Codex shows me 18 datasheets that can take plasma. An equally brief run through the Marine Codex shows me 31 datasheets that can take plasma.
If you’re going to be an ass, at least have the dignity to be right.
Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.
Kinda missed the point of what I was saying, but anyway - mono Custodes work just fine up to and including a mildly competitive meta. When the Talons IA book drops they’ll be a fully fledged faction.
LOL at the notion of using Land Raiders and Storm Ravens.
More options =/= Good options. Like, at all.
Also, you wanted to take the most amount of Plasma. So look at the points of how many Plasma Guns Scions and Vets can take. Once again, just because there's more options doesn't mean crap if they all take 1 each.
Yeah, just because 31 datasheets have plasma as an option doesn't necessarily mean you'll have more than 31 plasma available. It could be that each of those units can take plasma only once, but in those 15 datasheets that have them they can take plasma multiple times. Details are important.
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Galef wrote: Melta still more expensive than Plasma. No matter how cheap they make Melta, it will never be a valid option unless it's cheaper than Plasma
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Isn't melta more efficient against vehicles though, due to its higher strength, armor pen and melta rule? They could be basing it on that.
The hell is going on with the points costs? They’re including the costs for some things that haven’t changed, but not all things that haven’t changed. They’ve included Vindicators which changed in the CA’17, but then they’ve also included bolt pistols which have never changed, but then they haven’t included lots of things that have never changed.
Anybody a clue as to the logic behind what’s printed and what’s not?
3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...
How's that context for ya?
This is hogwash.
In the Haarken debate you told people to wait for the details.
Here you're not waiting for the details.
Additionally, if you can't see the difference between a gun that is 36" and can target characters from one that is 24" then I don't know what to tell you.
We HAVE those details.
1. Units don't go up in price basically when codices are released.
2. This Strategem is 1CP
3. The squad in question is going to remain 60 points and can take 5 Storm Bolters.
Also if you really think targeting characters is that amazing, why don't Sniper Scouts get used? They're significantly cheaper, don't have AP on their guns to be negated by any Invul, and they can deploy anywhere.
Why aren't Eldar Rangers being used for anything but meeting a tax.
Anything Sniper is bad because they're not actually a threat. If you think it is, you're legit a bad player.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Isn't melta more efficient against vehicles though, due to its higher strength, armor pen and melta rule? They could be basing it on that.
Only slightly, but Plasma is so close to the same output AND is far better against everything else. Plasma is just the better weapon period. And 1-shot D6 damage weapons are woefully unreliable, even if they have the potential to do more wounds. At the very least, they should cost the same
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, just because 31 datasheets have plasma as an option doesn't necessarily mean you'll have more than 31 plasma available. It could be that each of those units can take plasma only once, but in those 15 datasheets that have them they can take plasma multiple times. Details are important.
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Galef wrote: Melta still more expensive than Plasma. No matter how cheap they make Melta, it will never be a valid option unless it's cheaper than Plasma
-
Isn't melta more efficient against vehicles though, due to its higher strength, armor pen and melta rule? They could be basing it on that.
My theory is they're pricing it based on you being in range at all times and using the Assault profile.
With Multi-Melta I don't know what their logic is.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Isn't melta more efficient against vehicles though, due to its higher strength, armor pen and melta rule? They could be basing it on that.
Only slightly, but Plasma is so close to the same output AND it far better against units with more than 1 model. Plasma is just the better weapon period. And 1-shot D6 damage weapons are woefully unreliable, even if they have the potential to do more wounds.
At the very least, they should cost the same
-
Fair enough. Plasma does seem to be a better all rounder, and it does have a range advantage. I could get behind them being the same points cost.
Galef wrote: Melta still more expensive than Plasma. No matter how cheap they make Melta, it will never be a valid option unless it's cheaper than Plasma
-
If the platforms are cheap enough it won't matter. Fire Dragons are almost good, after all.
lonewolf81 wrote: guardsmen and cultists went 5 points (which is good btw) and kabalites stayed 6pts ....pfff
Do you know what Guardsmen and Cultists have that Kabalites don't? Force multipliers, pretty much the best Kabalites can get is is the standard re-roll 1's to hit, and maybe wound if you're going for a very unusual set up. They do not have psychic powers (anyone that says Doom is an idiot, you are not wasting that on Kabalites), stratagems or orders, the only actual advantage they have is 3+ to hit and a gun that whilst better against T4+ is ridiculously inefficient against T3 hordes.
Kabalites are undercosted for their statline (so are guardsmen and cultists). Also almost the whole dark eldar codex is undercosted (venoms, razorwings, ravagers, grotesques, talos , some weapon options etc)
Cultists aren't underpriced. They're correctly priced. Them being the same as Infantry is as silly as bumping Conscripts to Infantry price was.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, just because 31 datasheets have plasma as an option doesn't necessarily mean you'll have more than 31 plasma available. It could be that each of those units can take plasma only once, but in those 15 datasheets that have them they can take plasma multiple times. Details are important.
Remember that Hellblasters, Vanguard and Sternguard are all potentially 10-man units that can have a plasma weapon - or even two - on each model. Besides which, it doesn’t matter in the end; no matter which way you cut it, Space Marines have massive access to Plasma and Sisters have none, which was the whole point.
Looks like a nice range of Guard points drops, more than makes up for (unconfirmed) 5pt infantry. Hydras, armoured sentinels, demolishers, pretty much every weapon choice, chimera, a few superheavies, probably more. And they fixed the stupid artemia cannon to 20pts.
Thermal Cannon is the only decent melta weapon in the game. (Remember to save a command re-roll for the number of shots though!)
---
In any case, even though I'm salty about auto bolt rifles getting a shaft again* I am pleased that at least there now is a reason to run non-DW Primaris again. I think an Indomitus Crusade fuelled by (sigh) some guardsmen would be decently effective. (I probably need to bite a bullet and just model a platoon of chapter serfs**.)
(*I think I just start gluing them on my marines anyway and use them for normal bolt rifles; the big magazine is to explain that crazy rate of fire they can achieve with that stratagem!)
(** Spending months for modelling and painting them is pretty much a guaranteed way to get the CP batteries nerfed the moment I'm done.)
Galef wrote: Melta still more expensive than Plasma. No matter how cheap they make Melta, it will never be a valid option unless it's cheaper than Plasma
-
If the platforms are cheap enough it won't matter. Fire Dragons are almost good, after all.
Fire Dragons are good, but they have other rules and DON"T have Plasma. The point is that just about EVERY Marine/CSM platform that can take a Melta, can instead that a Plasma. And will absolutely for so if Melta remains the more expensive option while also remaining the worst option. Not mad, just....disappointed
I can't help but notice that in the DA units, BA unit and CSM units sections "Space Marine/Chaos Space Marine" isn't a listed unit with a points drop. So either there is another section specifically lowering the points on these units that we haven't seen, or MEQs are intended to be trash units that GW doesn't want you to buy anymore.
Sure chaos space marine squads are still 13ppm... but chosen are 14 That is a pretty decent plasma or close combat platform right there. 12ppm on the warp talons just looks... brutal. I feel like that was a typo but overall I like the changes to the chaos space marines. I have no idea how it’s going to balance against everyone else though... and the CP generating ability got hurt pretty bad for us... Overall I think some things that have been resting on people’s shelves might see the table at the very least in a casual setting though.
Broodlords, Lictors, Pyrovores, Tyranid Primes, Tyrannocytes down 25-30%
Exocrines & Tervigons down over 40pts
Tfex down 30pts
Both Trygons down 20pts
Swarmlord down 50pts
macluvin wrote: Sure chaos space marine squads are still 13ppm... but chosen are 14 That is a pretty decent plasma or close combat platform right there. 12ppm on the warp talons just looks... brutal. I feel like that was a typo but overall I like the changes to the chaos space marines. I have no idea how it’s going to balance against everyone else though... and the CP generating ability got hurt pretty bad for us... Overall I think some things that have been resting on people’s shelves might see the table at the very least in a casual setting though.
So they brought up Cultist point cost because they were "too popular" in CSM lists, but than garunteed they remain the only valid Troop? Good job GW
xttz wrote: Got most of my Tyranid wishlist, so excited
Broodlords, Lictors, Pyrovores, Tyranid Primes, Tyrannocytes down 25-30%
Exocrines & Tervigons down over 40pts
Tfex down 30pts
Both Trygons down 20pts
Swarmlord down 50pts
Haruspex, Maleceptor & Toxicrene down a bit
Heavy ranged weapons got decent cuts
Neurothrope up to 90 as expected
It's sad that the Neurologist went up, but when the malanthrope went up, we all knew it....
Now primes will be worth it though, meaning warrior lists might see a come back, especially after the venom cannon point drops.
I was reading the latest White Dwarf and there was an article about Cities of Death, where they talked about changes to terrain rules.
Basically soft cover (crates, wooden fences, stuff you'd have lying around) gives +1 to armour, while hard cover (ruins, buildings...) gives +2. This can be countered by being higher up, as a height advantage of at least 3" gives your guys -1 AP extra and there is a stratagem to increase it to -2. Most interestingly, there is a general obscured penalty to hit: if your target is over 50% out of sight, the firer gets -1 to hit. Also ~20 new stratagems for urban fighting, like sewers for deep striking and point blank overwatch even when the enemy starts the charge out of sight.
Humm, from the necron leaks there's even less a reason to take warriors even at 11pts since immortals are down to 17. Nightbringer at 180 is a good steal. DDA which we all use are down about 35 which is helpful. AB are down about 35 but still can't think of a reason to take one. Preatorians are in a similar boat of being okay cost wise but they can't do much of anything useful.
buddha wrote: Humm, from the necron leaks there's even less a reason to take warriors even at 11pts since immortals are down to 17. Nightbringer at 180 is a good steal. DDA which we all use are down about 35 which is helpful. AB are down about 35 but still can't think of a reason to take one. Preatorians are in a similar boat of being okay cost wise but they can't do much of anything useful.
Still think we are at the bottom of the codexes.
Immortals are down to 15. They are 17 currently. 11 points seem right for warriors. An annihilation barge with gauss cannon is 120 points. Which isn't bad. The main gun still needs a buff though.
With the breadth of point cost reductions, I'm not sure if they haven't just inflated the game size. If everything changes, nothing changes...
Yeah... maybe they should have just doubled everyone’s points and started from there... I wonder if we will ever see the day of the 1 point guardsman xD
buddha wrote: Humm, from the necron leaks there's even less a reason to take warriors even at 11pts since immortals are down to 17. Nightbringer at 180 is a good steal. DDA which we all use are down about 35 which is helpful. AB are down about 35 but still can't think of a reason to take one. Preatorians are in a similar boat of being okay cost wise but they can't do much of anything useful.
Still think we are at the bottom of the codexes.
Immortals are down to 15. They are 17 currently.
11 points seem right for warriors.
An annihilation barge with gauss cannon is 120 points. Which isn't bad. The main gun still needs a buff though.
buddha wrote: Humm, from the necron leaks there's even less a reason to take warriors even at 11pts since immortals are down to 17. Nightbringer at 180 is a good steal. DDA which we all use are down about 35 which is helpful. AB are down about 35 but still can't think of a reason to take one. Preatorians are in a similar boat of being okay cost wise but they can't do much of anything useful.
Still think we are at the bottom of the codexes.
Even with a huge reduction to the Doomsday Ark, heavy destroyers are down 5ppm so I still see no rational reason to take such an unreliable unit.
buddha wrote: Humm, from the necron leaks there's even less a reason to take warriors even at 11pts since immortals are down to 17. Nightbringer at 180 is a good steal. DDA which we all use are down about 35 which is helpful. AB are down about 35 but still can't think of a reason to take one. Preatorians are in a similar boat of being okay cost wise but they can't do much of anything useful.
Still think we are at the bottom of the codexes.
Even with a huge reduction to the Doomsday Ark, heavy destroyers are down 5ppm so I still see no rational reason to take such an unreliable unit.
7 points. Heavy Gauss Cannons were 27 points.
Heavy Destroyers are now the same as Destroyers, I believe.
I'm somewhat perplexed by the some of these design changes.
On the one hand, Chaos Terminators staying 28 points per model while Loyalist equivalents going down to 23 seems more like an oversight than anythingelse. I can understand Blightlord or Scarab Occults being a bit more expensive, but generic CSM terminators? Also nerfing cultists to 5 point per model while leaving guardsmen at 4 points is ridiculous. Especially since in 8th edition and the allies system, "internal" balance is a really weak concept. Space Marines with allied guardsmen is not really that different from Chaos Space Marines with cultists that it warrants cultists at 5 points. The only reason cultists were so popular is because the generic MEQ body is really struggling, not because they are particularly game breaking.
ON THE OTHER HAND. Another 20 point price drop for Defilers YEAAAA BOI.
You know what they did? They realised that point increases make everyone sad. So instead of increasing Guardsmen, they decreased everything else. People are happy with points drops.
You know what they did? They realised that point increases make everyone sad. So instead of increasing Guardsmen, they decreased everything else. People are happy with points drops.
Why is there pages missing? LOL. We still don't have GK Units or Tau units.
Why are gaurdsmen 4ppm? Why are tactical squads not listed? Why is avenger shuriken catapult down to 3 points? It's a 1 point weapon LOL.
Then you see GW stuck in some holes - like with AdMech destroyers...now paying like 12 points for a 3 W 3+ save model LOL. It seems base cost can go into the negative if a unit have really expensive gear (not complaining about this unit - it needed to be cheaper)
BUT the most obvious decsions are being missed or underdone.
Landraiders still around 300 points (should be more like 250)
Centurians not even listed (though it seems some space marine info is missing) pretty sad if they miss this - most overcosted unit in the game.
Tacs/Dires still unplayable - Guardsmen still 4ppm????
Plus some auto include options are getting better...like Carnifex HVCLOL. Russ Commanders down in points (why - they already OP)
Xenomancers wrote: Why is there pages missing? LOL. We still don't have GK Units or Tau units.
Why are gaurdsmen 4ppm? Why are tactical squads not listed? Why is avenger shuriken catapult down to 3 points? It's a 1 point weapon LOL.
Then you see GW stuck in some holes - like with AdMech destroyers...now paying like 12 points for a 3 W 3+ save model LOL. It seems base cost can go into the negative if a unit have really expensive gear (not complaining about this unit - it needed to be cheaper)
BUT the most obvious decsions are being missed or underdone.
Landraiders still around 300 points (should be more like 250)
Centurians not even listed (though it seems some space marine info is missing) pretty sad if they miss this - most overcosted unit in the game.
Tacs/Dires still unplayable - Guardsmen still 4ppm????
Plus some auto include options are getting better...like Carnifex HVCLOL. Russ Commanders down in points (why - they already OP)
Probably won't answer all (or maybe even any of your questions), but the first page of the points list says there are 4 pages of updated data sheets. Might be relevant there.
akaean wrote: I'm somewhat perplexed by the some of these design changes.
On the one hand, Chaos Terminators staying 28 points per model while Loyalist equivalents going down to 23 seems more like an oversight than anythingelse. I can understand Blightlord or Scarab Occults being a bit more expensive, but generic CSM terminators? Also nerfing cultists to 5 point per model while leaving guardsmen at 4 points is ridiculous. Especially since in 8th edition and the allies system, "internal" balance is a really weak concept. Space Marines with allied guardsmen is not really that different from Chaos Space Marines with cultists that it warrants cultists at 5 points. The only reason cultists were so popular is because the generic MEQ body is really struggling, not because they are particularly game breaking.
ON THE OTHER HAND. Another 20 point price drop for Defilers YEAAAA BOI.
CSM Terms were 31 before. Where is 23 for Loyal Termies, I must have missed it. ( I see it now, 23 ppm . So unsure why CSM are more at base)
I Imagine Scarab Occults are base cheaper, as the entry gun for them is much better. I also gather its from the +1 to their save for weapons that only do 1 damage.
Sternguard down 2 pts each. I am wondering if they will be in the Liberator Strike Force. Kind of dictates how I move forward. Honestly, Sternguard are 1 pt more than a Tactical Marine now. Insane.
So i'm confused. Is this a comprehensive accounting of the current points values for everything that has updated points relative to the Codex? Or does this only reflect things that have changed? That is, if something changed in CA 2017, but is not listed in CA 2018, is it's current cost reflected by the original cost in the Codex/Index, or it's CA 2017 cost?
I would have hoped they made CA 2018 a one-stop shop that updates everything so that you don't need multiple books to know the current cost of a unit.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Sternguard down 2 pts each. I am wondering if they will be in the Liberator Strike Force. Kind of dictates how I move forward. Honestly, Sternguard are 1 pt more than a Tactical Marine now. Insane.
Chaos Chosen are 14 points now. It's bewildering for sure.
I didn't see anything with the Deathwatch units, but I did see the Wargear page. Turns out Deathwatch Bolt Pistols are 0 points.
You use any points cost in CA2018, if present. If not present, you use the Codex. Two special cases are listed: where to find SoB points, and where to find R&H points.
All that hype for the GKs has just been crushed. GKs still bottom garbage tier. And with the near confirmation of keeping baby smite... that’s another edition of grey knights not seeing play. I give up tbh, I’m done with my GKs. I’m holding no hope now for anything to save them in CA.
You use any points cost in CA2018, if present. If not present, you use the Codex. Two special cases are listed: where to find SoB points, and where to find R&H points.
So for instance because the Malanthrope was not listed in CA 2018, we use it's original Index listing?
chnmmr wrote: All that hype for the GKs has just been crushed. GKs still bottom garbage tier. And with the near confirmation of keeping baby smite... that’s another edition of grey knights not seeing play. I give up tbh, I’m done with my GKs. I’m holding no hope now for anything to save them in CA.
Maybe they're in the 4 pages of data sheet updates we haven't seen yet? Leakers are slacking, man.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Sternguard down 2 pts each. I am wondering if they will be in the Liberator Strike Force. Kind of dictates how I move forward. Honestly, Sternguard are 1 pt more than a Tactical Marine now. Insane.
Chaos Chosen are 14 points now. It's bewildering for sure.
I didn't see anything with the Deathwatch units, but I did see the Wargear page. Turns out Deathwatch Bolt Pistols are 0 points.
JUMPPACK COWBOYS HERE I COME
I was going to ask "Why Bolt Pistols?" but then I remembered. Special Issue Ammunition. And then you will be wrecking face!
chnmmr wrote: All that hype for the GKs has just been crushed. GKs still bottom garbage tier. And with the near confirmation of keeping baby smite... that’s another edition of grey knights not seeing play. I give up tbh, I’m done with my GKs. I’m holding no hope now for anything to save them in CA.
Maybe they're in the 4 pages of data sheet updates we haven't seen yet? Leakers are slacking, man.
So there are datasheet updates? That would be interesting to see. Does it include weapon stats?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Sternguard down 2 pts each. I am wondering if they will be in the Liberator Strike Force. Kind of dictates how I move forward. Honestly, Sternguard are 1 pt more than a Tactical Marine now. Insane.
Chaos Chosen are 14 points now. It's bewildering for sure.
I didn't see anything with the Deathwatch units, but I did see the Wargear page. Turns out Deathwatch Bolt Pistols are 0 points.
JUMPPACK COWBOYS HERE I COME
Lots of Deathwatch updates. Vets down to 14. Storm shields down to 2.
Primaris wise, Repulsors dropped 25, TLC 10. Redemptor dropped a ton, along with the heavy onslaught. Reiver heavy bolt pistols and bolt carbines dropped (to 0 and 2 respectively) thus making them point 1 point over auto bolt rifle Intercessors. Captains dropped too.
Lots of Deathwatch updates. Vets down to 14. Storm shields down to 2.
Primaris wise, Repulsors dropped 25, TLC 10. Redemptor dropped a ton, along with the heavy onslaught. Reiver heavy bolt pistols and bolt carbines dropped (to 0 and 2 respectively) thus making them point 1 point over auto bolt rifle Intercessors. Captains dropped too.
Seems like tau forgeworld is still missing...found everything else. (how on earth are infantry squads still 4 points when cultists who are strictly worse 5!?)
Tsilber wrote: SO CSM Termies 28, Loyalist Terms 23, and Grey Knights 39 ... I smell deception or misdirection.
Wait you're not serious are you?
I'm...slightly worried these leaks aren't real now. As incompetent as the rules team is sometimes, SURELY they would've made Chaos Terminators cheaper.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Sternguard down 2 pts each. I am wondering if they will be in the Liberator Strike Force. Kind of dictates how I move forward. Honestly, Sternguard are 1 pt more than a Tactical Marine now. Insane.
Chaos Chosen are 14 points now. It's bewildering for sure.
I didn't see anything with the Deathwatch units, but I did see the Wargear page. Turns out Deathwatch Bolt Pistols are 0 points.
JUMPPACK COWBOYS HERE I COME
Lots of Deathwatch updates. Vets down to 14. Storm shields down to 2.
Primaris wise, Repulsors dropped 25, TLC 10. Redemptor dropped a ton, along with the heavy onslaught. Reiver heavy bolt pistols and bolt carbines dropped (to 0 and 2 respectively) thus making them point 1 point over auto bolt rifle Intercessors. Captains dropped too.
Storm Shields down to 2 is almost ridiculous. And Vets to 14 means I realistically saved 16 points a squad. That goes a long way.
Tsilber wrote: SO CSM Termies 28, Loyalist Terms 23, and Grey Knights 39 ... I smell deception or misdirection.
Wait you're not serious are you?
I'm...slightly worried these leaks aren't real now. As incompetent as the rules team is sometimes, SURELY they would've made Chaos Terminators cheaper.
It's from screenshots... there's no way it can't be real.
Tsilber wrote: SO CSM Termies 28, Loyalist Terms 23, and Grey Knights 39 ... I smell deception or misdirection.
Wait you're not serious are you?
I'm...slightly worried these leaks aren't real now. As incompetent as the rules team is sometimes, SURELY they would've made Chaos Terminators cheaper.
Right there, CSM Termies are base 28 and the combi plasma is down to 11. Loyalist Termies base is 23, so lower for some reason. And GK Termies are 39 still (without wargear)
According the leaks last few pages, so I think there is some subterfuge in play...
As a Tau, CSM (who uses termies), and Daemon player. I am very happy with the leaks... I cant remember when I went 3 for 3 as far as good things in a row for armies I play. ( Or Football games I bet on ... friggin vikings)
So anyway..
Yeah. Such a stupid 'solution' - all they had to do was add a line that Titans are not legal for Matched/competitive play. But nope, they overprice them without making their stats on par with the costs!
The Eldar Revenant is a particularly egregious example, it's barely better than a Knight Porphyrion, and if the latter goes first, it loses.
Tsilber wrote: SO CSM Termies 28, Loyalist Terms 23, and Grey Knights 39 ... I smell deception or misdirection.
Wait you're not serious are you?
I'm...slightly worried these leaks aren't real now. As incompetent as the rules team is sometimes, SURELY they would've made Chaos Terminators cheaper.
Right there, CSM Termies are base 28 and the combi plasma is down to 11. Loyalist Termies base is 23, so lower for some reason. And GK Termies are 39 still (without wargear)
According the leaks last few pages, so I think there is some subterfuge in play...
As a Tau, CSM (who uses termies), and Daemon player. I am very happy with the leaks... I cant remember when I went 3 for 3 as far as good things in a row for armies I play. ( Or Football games I bet on ... friggin vikings)
So anyway..
I bet it's just the updated data sheets we haven't seen yet. No subterfuge, just incomplete information perhaps?
Maybe its not the final version? Have to agree some stuff seems off, while most of this seems reasonable. Bloodcrushers at 47 is quite painful for example.
Tsilber wrote: SO CSM Termies 28, Loyalist Terms 23, and Grey Knights 39 ... I smell deception or misdirection.
Wait you're not serious are you?
I'm...slightly worried these leaks aren't real now. As incompetent as the rules team is sometimes, SURELY they would've made Chaos Terminators cheaper.
Right there, CSM Termies are base 28 and the combi plasma is down to 11. Loyalist Termies base is 23, so lower for some reason. And GK Termies are 39 still (without wargear)
According the leaks last few pages, so I think there is some subterfuge in play...
As a Tau, CSM (who uses termies), and Daemon player. I am very happy with the leaks... I cant remember when I went 3 for 3 as far as good things in a row for armies I play. ( Or Football games I bet on ... friggin vikings)
So anyway..
I bet it's just the updated data sheets we haven't seen yet. No subterfuge, just incomplete information perhaps?
Heres a far fetched thought. GW gets suspicious or leads on the people that leak information. They release false information to those people... and GOTCHA leakers! Oh btw, here are the real rules players. (With all the post made in this thread so far, this is not that far out their of a theory)
Tsilber wrote: Heres a far fetched thought. GW gets suspicious or leads on the people that leak information. They release false information to those people... and GOTCHA leakers! Oh btw, here are the real rules players. (With all the post made in this thread so far, this is not that far out their of a theory)
Why would they care? They kept it under wraps for long enough. Now the leaks are free marketing. I bet their sales have spiked today.
Tsilber wrote: Heres a far fetched thought. GW gets suspicious or leads on the people that leak information. They release false information to those people... and GOTCHA leakers! Oh btw, here are the real rules players. (With all the post made in this thread so far, this is not that far out their of a theory)
Why would they care? They kept it under wraps for long enough. Now the leaks are free marketing. I bet their sales have spiked today.
OH cmon... dont bring logic into this. I want a theory also! lol
Yeah. Such a stupid 'solution' - all they had to do was add a line that Titans are not legal for Matched/competitive play. But nope, they overprice them without making their stats on par with the costs!
The Eldar Revenant is a particularly egregious example, it's barely better than a Knight Porphyrion, and if the latter goes first, it loses.
The Revenant is just a travesty. They jacked it up by 800 points, but the Phantom was untouched? That boggles the mind...
OK So we're still missing page 130 (Drukhari, GSC and start of Grey Knights info) page 132 (most of the vanilla SM stuff), page 135 (start of the Forgeworld/IA section) and all the FW stuff after page 134 (after FW Grey Knights).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 124 says that some of the units that were not updated in 2018 still use the points form CA 2017. Very dumb idea for GW - it makes the game expensive to get into, and seriously do they still plan on printing and selling CA 2017????
Yeah. Such a stupid 'solution' - all they had to do was add a line that Titans are not legal for Matched/competitive play. But nope, they overprice them without making their stats on par with the costs!
The Eldar Revenant is a particularly egregious example, it's barely better than a Knight Porphyrion, and if the latter goes first, it loses.
The Revenant is just a travesty. They jacked it up by 800 points, but the Phantom was untouched? That boggles the mind...
Right? It was already about 300 points overcosted BEFORE they jacked it up too.
Alessander wrote: OK So we're still missing page 130 (Drukhari, GSC and start of Grey Knights info) page 132 (most of the vanilla SM stuff), page 135 (start of the Forgeworld/IA section) and all the FW stuff after page 134 (after FW Grey Knights).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 124 says that some of the units that were not updated in 2018 still use the points form CA 2017. Very dumb idea for GW - it makes the game expensive to get into, and seriously do they still plan on printing and selling CA 2017????
With no datasheet changes (if there are non) I think Necrons will remain a low tier army...their point drops and the hike on the TVault just means even more destroyer spam. Wouldnt be suprised if we see a „min“ battalion of 3x 5 Immortals 2x Lord and the rest outriders with destroyers scarabs...maxbe one 5/6 unit wraiths...So all in all apart from the Battallion nothing changed
Yeah. Such a stupid 'solution' - all they had to do was add a line that Titans are not legal for Matched/competitive play. But nope, they overprice them without making their stats on par with the costs!
The Eldar Revenant is a particularly egregious example, it's barely better than a Knight Porphyrion, and if the latter goes first, it loses.
The Revenant is just a travesty. They jacked it up by 800 points, but the Phantom was untouched? That boggles the mind...
Right? It was already about 300 points overcosted BEFORE they jacked it up too.
I actually think that the Revenant at 1200 wasn't bad. I enjoyed playing with that as I have 2 of them. Now I can't really even use one of them as 2k is just not worth the price of admission.
Page 124 says that some of the units that were not updated in 2018 still use the points form CA 2017. Very dumb idea for GW - it makes the game expensive to get into, and seriously do they still plan on printing and selling CA 2017????
It says they use the same points, but are printed here. So no, you only need CA18 and your codex / index.
Not to mention that if you zoom in, there almost seems to be odd boxes around the text.
And can someone explain to be how bloodcrshers got "changed" into 47? its exactly like the codex. there are probably other cases, but that's one I noticed (thanks cinderspirit)
Page 124 says that some of the units that were not updated in 2018 still use the points form CA 2017. Very dumb idea for GW - it makes the game expensive to get into, and seriously do they still plan on printing and selling CA 2017????
It says they use the same points, but are printed here. So no, you only need CA18 and your codex / index.
Maybe usable, but not well costed. Again, compare to the Knight Porphyrion - which is basically equivalent to it. Arguably just as good and a good 33% cheaper at that point (Note it got a point drop in last CA too!). Or even in the same list - the Scorpion, which is nearly as good at only 710 base (A bit more when you add on some upgrades like the Spirit Stones and a backup weapon, but not a lot more). Pretty much the same main gun. Doesn't have the missile pod sure, and 2 less wounds. Basically the same otherwise, but can also benefit from the Vehicle upgrades (Particularly Spirit Stones for the FNP! 6+++ only, but that's still one in 6 wounds it'll save on average, putting its survivability at functionally 3 more wounds than the Titan!). I think the Revenant at 800-900 is definitely a good spot until/unless they change how the Holofield works.
BoomWolf wrote: Not to mention that if you zoom in, there almost seems to be odd boxes around the text.
I mean, it's not impossible. But the weird box thing could well be jpeg artifacting. I looked at some jpeg leaks from a while back and it has the same thing.
BoomWolf wrote: Ok, I'm starting to suspect this isn't real.
TOO many mismatches, too many odd things.
Not to mention that if you zoom in, there almost seems to be odd boxes around the text.
And can someone explain to be how bloodcrshers got "changed" into 47? its exactly like the codex. there are probably other cases, but that's one I noticed (thanks cinderspirit)
Something is off here.
There is text at the start of the sheets saying that some points are the same as the ones in the codex because that supports datasheets that are also in the book, that might be it but that could be just as shopped in.
BoomWolf wrote: Not to mention that if you zoom in, there almost seems to be odd boxes around the text.
I mean, it's not impossible. But the weird box thing could well be jpeg artifacting. I looked at some jpeg leaks from a while back and it has the same thing.
Possible, but it still does not explain some oddities in the points themselves.
Blood crushers listed at codex price being the most obvious mistake, but GK that were advertised as "big drops" changing very little is also odd.
I'd say at the very best, this is some sort of early version that got out somehow.
Or its the print version, GW fethed up bad, and this needs a D0 FAQ real bad.
Can we just pause a moment and contemplate the fact that my knights just got cheaper?
Not by a lot, and only in line with other changes (so everybody's heavy flamers now cost less) but still.
I haven't seen anyone mention that stalker bolt rifles are now free... probably because they still suck so nobody cares.
I have an IK army, a Tau army and a Crimson Fist army. All will see significant points reductions. Well, 20 points of points reductions for my IKs but significant ones for everyone else.
And a unit of 10 veteran intercessors for 170 points, all with 3 attacks each and Ap-1 storm bolters does not suck. This makes me happy. Kantor is even down 20 points, so maybe I'll have him lead them.
Mabye we aren't seeing bigger increases for stuff like infantry squads because other stuff has come down instead. They seem very reluctant to put points up, even where it's obviously a good idea.
No changes at all for Drukhari?! I can't even remotely fathom why, Dissies and Grotesques need to go up by a bit, Talos by about 15pts and Beastspacks, Reavers, Hellions and the Cronos all need to come down. Their total omission is baffling.
