Gives you 3 WS4 S8 AP3 D2 attacks, 3 WS4 S8 AP3 Dd6 attacks and 6 WS3 S6 AP2 D2 attacks. But you also get 2 24" BS3 S7 AP3 D1 and 2 24" BS3 S6 AP2 D2 in shooting.
Some chance of swapping in Melta for the Plasma. I don't think you take the Heavy and Normal plague flamers.
You can't get more shooting but could swap one of the shooters for more melee (Mace, Knife) and add 3 WS4 S6 AP1 D3 attacks. The AP is the reason it isn't great. You will probably pull the shooters first as you take casualties, they are just very well equipped ablative wounds.
The 10 man version is the same Champ, then 2 x each of the 5 man's Marines and most likely the Mace as the 10th.
The Icon is not worth it and the Sigil is for bolters and we don't want those!
Gives you 3 WS4 S8 AP3 D2 attacks, 3 WS4 S8 AP3 Dd6 attacks and 6 WS3 S6 AP2 D2 attacks. But you also get 2 24" BS3 S7 AP3 D1 and 2 24" BS3 S6 AP2 D2 in shooting.
Some chance of swapping in Melta for the Plasma. I don't think you take the Heavy and Normal plague flamers.
You can't get more shooting but could swap one of the shooters for more melee (Mace, Knife) and add 3 WS4 S6 AP1 D3 attacks. The AP is the reason it isn't great. You will probably pull the shooters first as you take casualties, they are just very well equipped ablative wounds.
The 10 man version is the same Champ, then 2 x each of the 5 man's Marines and most likely the Mace as the 10th.
The Icon is not worth it and the Sigil is for bolters and we don't want those!
I think the load out above seems about right. I am tempted to drop the cleaver for the heavy flamer but not sure that is optimal. For 105 pts this is a really great unit. I think between 4 and 6 5 man units is the basis of an army.
I personally think going full on melee and reserve Plasma only for the champion while maybe using Blight Launchers is the target. Blight Launchers are assault so you can run while still shooting with them. I get the feeling we want to run those squads to get them into melee sooner rather than later.
Honestly I am just tempted to have 4-6 10 man squads with:
Plague Champion with Fist, Sword and Plasma
2x w/Blight Launcher
2x w/Bubotic Axe
2x w/Flail
2x w/ Cleaver
1x w/Mace and Axe
Oh didn't realise the Spewer (the heavy flamer) could be taken alongside the Blight Launcher and Plasma. Still not a fan.
I'm not sure about Bubotic Axe's vs. Plasma (or Melta), the melee fights where your 2 Flails, 2 Cleavers, 1 Mace and 1 Fist don't get the job done and the 2 Axes actually matters are probably small in number. I think the amount of turns Plasma/Melta might do something useful will be a little higher.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus they don't currently cost 10 points, I'm getting all my free points, not just half of them!
Had a mini 1000pt tournament at weekend.
I just brought a fun force instead of eat face but ended up playing chaos knights and imperial knights.
Very difficult to take these on in such small games, but managed to beat the Imperial knights.
Plague skull did some great work for me and against the Imp knights the Landraider (I told you it was just a fun list) did great work too.
Stood up to loads of firepower stalling his knights allowing my deathshroud and LoC to come out and eat them alive.
Truelly with AoC and the points changes I think DG are up at top table now.
Forgive my stupidity but what happens to our CP when we include Mortarion? I've read it multiple times now but I'm really not certain. By my reasoning, we lose 3CP? Can someone please explain it as if you were explaining it to a 12 year old.
lare2 wrote: Forgive my stupidity but what happens to our CP when we include Mortarion? I've read it multiple times now but I'm really not certain. By my reasoning, we lose 3CP? Can someone please explain it as if you were explaining it to a 12 year old.
Not much actually.
You get a patrol or battalion detachment, then add a supreme command detachment with Mortarion in it. This will refund your first detachment.
Then you have the option to pay 1 CP to allow him to have a warlord trait. Whenever he would get a warlord trait, he gets all three in the list instead.
In addition, he gets one contagion warlord trait at the start of the game, at no extra cost.
So if I ran a battalion and super heavy detachment with Morty as Warlord it'd only cost me 1CP and I'd have 5CP left to play with in a Strike Force mission? Cheers.
It seems all quiet on the nurgle front, I guess that's the silence of content now that our army is performing better.
I think I'm finally ready to field my dudes and play in a tournament or something, but I'm still pretty trash when it comes to understanding the current state of the rules.
Should I just familiarize myself with my current codex, rulebook, and latest chapter approved?
Darkmatter wrote: It seems all quiet on the nurgle front, I guess that's the silence of content now that our army is performing better.
I think I'm finally ready to field my dudes and play in a tournament or something, but I'm still pretty trash when it comes to understanding the current state of the rules.
Should I just familiarize myself with my current codex, rulebook, and latest chapter approved?
In my experience one of the best ways to get better at the game is to play the game.
Figure out familiarizing later on. Don't overthink it in the start. This gives you a good basis to build further understanding on. Theoretical knowledge is very brittle if you do not know the context to witch it applies.
lare2 wrote: Looks like soup's back on the menu, boys.
What do you see Nurgle demons doing better than what DG could already do?
Only thing I could see being advantageous for a DG army is Nurglings for pre-game infiltration pressure...
Not really seeing anything else, unless you want to go less terminators (boo) and go more DG deamon engines and a Demon detachment of Soul Grinders (eh).
I have and the news isn't good. Morty is as tanky as a GUO, has better melee, better mobility, 3 warlord traits, and a similar cost. PB's aren't tough, nurglings lost obsec, and there is almost 0 damage 2 or high S attacks.
You can splash 25% of your points as daemons without losing rules, but I fail to see why you'd want to.
Vortenger wrote: I have and the news isn't good. Morty is as tanky as a GUO, has better melee, better mobility, 3 warlord traits, and a similar cost. PB's aren't tough, nurglings lost obsec, and there is almost 0 damage 2 or high S attacks.
You can splash 25% of your points as daemons without losing rules, but I fail to see why you'd want to.
If you can somehow add 2 nurgle Soulgrinders with cheap HQ into a DG list... I think that'd work!
Nurgle Soulgrinders is prolly the best Nurgle unit.
EDIT: yeah, cant make it work with 2 Soulgrinders, and not sure if it's worth it then.
How would I make work an infantry-heavy army work? What I mean is, an army with lots of Plague Marines, max amount of Possessed, a unit or two of Deathshroud, a unit or two of Blightlords, which is supported by a unit of haulers and a unit of drones with fleshmowers. I'm not interested at the moment in using crawlers and tanks, and I probably won't be using zombies until I convert my own. I was thinking of having a Lord of Contagion, a Terminator sorcerer and daemon prince for HQs (prince is optional).
I´ll echo what Jidmad said, but if you are willing to try such a list without much ranged support or poxwalkers you will need Rhinos. PM´s on foot are too slow and only do meaningful damage in melee, and a list like this will also most likely focus on just outright killing your opponent over playing the objective, so you´ll need the speed.
Was excited to use the Gellerpox models, but ufff those rules are a big let down. I don't need chaos spawn but worse. I guess they're still useful as proxies or conversion fodder.
lare2 wrote: How many attacks does a daemon Prince with 2 talons make?
A Daemon Prince has 6 attacks base. Each Talon gives a single extra attack with itself, so if you have two Talons, you'd have 8 attacks at S7 AP-1 D2.
Thank you.
I can see where my confusion comes from. I've just checked the 8th edition codex. The DP used to have 4 attacks and having double talon would add 3. The talons aren't the best in 9th then.
lare2 wrote: How many attacks does a daemon Prince with 2 talons make?
JNA Productions: A Daemon Prince has 6 attacks base. Each Talon gives a single extra attack with itself, so if you have two Talons, you'd have 8 attacks at S7 AP-1 D2.
Sazzlefrats: I'd run the hellsword over talons.... d3 vs d2
Iare2:Built him in 8th. I'd definitely be choosing something else if I was building him now.
Sazzlefrats: All my daemon princes are the Jaun Diaz versions, which are the best looking but since they are metal are really hard to convert to anything else, so for all of 8th I was stuck with the hellsword (which wasn't really that bad). But in 9th I'm super happy.
Hey all, I’m just getting into 40k and I really enjoy the Death Guard lore and aesthetic wise. However, I also enjoy using more shooty units on the tabletop. I’m thinking of purchasing some Blight Haulers and Bloat Drones to go along with my 2 units of PMs, but are there any other good ranged DG models currently? Thanks in advance.
Yeah the Myphitic Blight-haulers cost 5 more than a melta/missile Helbruite but come with extra rules and stats.
Plagueburst Crawlers have a different role to MBHs and I like them, but haven't played the new meta yet with DG. But already have played some and the 5++ daemon kin/engine units get has become relevant again.
10 Blightlord Terminators (400pts) are a better shooting unit than 2 x 10 Plague Marines (380pts), can sometimes be more durable (D3 exactly AP3+ weapons) but lose a lot of melee output because their swords are D1 (they should be D2 imo).
EightFoldPath wrote: Yeah the Myphitic Blight-haulers cost 5 more than a melta/missile Helbruite but come with extra rules and stats.
Plagueburst Crawlers have a different role to MBHs and I like them, but haven't played the new meta yet with DG. But already have played some and the 5++ daemon kin/engine units get has become relevant again.
10 Blightlord Terminators (400pts) are a better shooting unit than 2 x 10 Plague Marines (380pts), can sometimes be more durable (D3 exactly AP3+ weapons) but lose a lot of melee output because their swords are D1 (they should be D2 imo).
To be fair, having D1 means they aren't paying for a D2 that can get negated. Plus the Flail is still a decent weapon.
IMO I wish they would just combine the swords and axes into "Feculent Accursed Weapons" or something with a single stat line S+1, AP-2, D2, Plague Weapon, 6's to hit automatically wound
Worked well for CSM and there is stuff in there I hope carries across to the new DG codex at some point in the future. Mark of Nurgle for example being one of them and a rework of Disgustingly Resilient
Today's Forge World FAQ updates the various CSM units that can go into Death Guard. In theory they couldn't be taken since the CSMFWFAQ but I guess most people ignored it.
They also added machine spirit to a bunch of stuff and some tweaks to a few rules for the FW Daemons.
Hey y’all, I’m pretty new to 40k and the first army I’m planning on building is a 1000 pt Death Guard list. If you’d like to check it out and give me some advice, I’ve got a thread here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809008.page Thanks in advance!
Anybody planning on making any changes to their army already now that 10th is official?
I'll have to double check but I think vehicles have some cool new rules that make rhino transports a bit more cash money for the super slow stink bois.
Being able to disembark easier is definitely gonna show some play in some lists.
I think 3 PBCs will still probably be a standard back line defense/ranged damage provider.
Big question is how will the durability changes affect Nurgle's favored. I wouldn't be surprised if they have an above average OC stat, to represent them just planting their feet and refusing to yield.
Anybody planning on making any changes to their army already now that 10th is official?
I'll have to double check but I think vehicles have some cool new rules that make rhino transports a bit more cash money for the super slow stink bois.
Being able to disembark easier is definitely gonna show some play in some lists.
I think 3 PBCs will still probably be a standard back line defense/ranged damage provider.
What do you guys think talk to me
Since you can have two plague marine shoot out of rhinos now while also being able to charge out of them after moving, rhinos sound like a really decent idea for death guard in 10th.
One thing I’m hoping for in 10th is that they make some of our elite characters, like the Noxious Blightbringer, a little more balanced, as currently there seems to be a huge difference between the ones worth taking and the ones that aren’t. I am interested to see what direction they take these characters in, especially with them being able to attach to units.
The Noxious Blightbringer definitely needs a boost in order to be worth taking over other elites. Also, I'm hoping that Possessed get a champion like the CSM ones do, as well as being able to take an icon.
Anybody planning on making any changes to their army already now that 10th is official?
I'll have to double check but I think vehicles have some cool new rules that make rhino transports a bit more cash money for the super slow stink bois.
Being able to disembark easier is definitely gonna show some play in some lists.
I think 3 PBCs will still probably be a standard back line defense/ranged damage provider.
What do you guys think talk to me
Since you can have two plague marine shoot out of rhinos now while also being able to charge out of them after moving, rhinos sound like a really decent idea for death guard in 10th.
Outside of that? Wait and see.
Transport move, disembark and charge was mentioned for land raider. Don't see such mention for rhino.
Normal transport if you disembark after transport moves you can shoot but not charge. ,
Assault ramp the land raider has, rhino posses not.
I recently had a thought about the effectiveness of Disgustingly Resilient going into 10th. While someone may think that 10th being less lethal than 9th would by default make us even tougher, I think that a decrease in lethality might come back to bite us in the butt. Because if a lot of 2 damage weapons get turned into 1 damage weapons, but not a lot of 3 or 4 damage weapons get turned into 2 damage weapons, that would lead to us feeling less resilient overall. Do any of you think that this could be an issue or is it just me?
And on the topic of transports, they have always been a great way for us to avoid how slow our troops are, so right now the buffs are looking pretty good to me. The Firing Deck keyword also looks great for us, as shooting out of a transport with a blight launcher or plasma gun will always be some nice extra value.
Transport move, disembark and charge was mentioned for land raider. Don't see such mention for rhino.
Normal transport if you disembark after transport moves you can shoot but not charge. ,
Assault ramp the land raider has, rhino posses not.
Well in 9th you couldn't even disembark from a transport if it had moved that turn.
Now it looks like units will be able to disembark and shoot after it moves.
"Now any embarked unit is free to hop out once a transport has moved – provided the vehicle didn’t Advance or Fall Back. They can also shoot, but can’t make a charge, unless they disembark before the vehicle moves. "
And the assault ramp is back for land raiders allowing disembarking units to charge.
"The Land Raider reclaims its Assault Ramp – meaning passengers can declare a charge on the same turn they disembark."
So yeah you're right the assault ramp is a cool thing that land raiders have again but according to this warhammer community article the rules for disembarking (and shooting) the same turn as a rhino moves is indeed what is happening.
Transport move, disembark and charge was mentioned for land raider. Don't see such mention for rhino.
Normal transport if you disembark after transport moves you can shoot but not charge. ,
Assault ramp the land raider has, rhino posses not.
Well in 9th you couldn't even disembark from a transport if it had moved that turn.
Now it looks like units will be able to disembark and shoot after it moves.
"Now any embarked unit is free to hop out once a transport has moved – provided the vehicle didn’t Advance or Fall Back. They can also shoot, but can’t make a charge, unless they disembark before the vehicle moves. "
And the assault ramp is back for land raiders allowing disembarking units to charge.
"The Land Raider reclaims its Assault Ramp – meaning passengers can declare a charge on the same turn they disembark."
So yeah you're right the assault ramp is a cool thing that land raiders have again but according to this warhammer community article the rules for disembarking (and shooting) the same turn as a rhino moves is indeed what is happening.
FoxHybrid wrote: I recently had a thought about the effectiveness of Disgustingly Resilient going into 10th. While someone may think that 10th being less lethal than 9th would by default make us even tougher, I think that a decrease in lethality might come back to bite us in the butt. Because if a lot of 2 damage weapons get turned into 1 damage weapons, but not a lot of 3 or 4 damage weapons get turned into 2 damage weapons, that would lead to us feeling less resilient overall. Do any of you think that this could be an issue or is it just me?
And on the topic of transports, they have always been a great way for us to avoid how slow our troops are, so right now the buffs are looking pretty good to me. The Firing Deck keyword also looks great for us, as shooting out of a transport with a blight launcher or plasma gun will always be some nice extra value.
The previews showed the return of many old rules, I wouldn't be surprised if DG went back straight to the 5+ FNP they had for a long time.
While we still don’t have too much info on our favorite Nurgle blessed marines (I would have loved to see the plague marine data sheet), what do we think of the Death Guard? I think the thing I like the most out of the reveals is the Plagueburst Mortar profile, I may have to pick one up sometime soon.
Good lord am I feeling bummed out after seeing those new DG rules.
Spent years painting up my stinkbois and now they're hardly looking as tough as regular marines =(
The Blightlords thing was just so meh I couldn't believe it.
With vehicles and monsters having these insane toughness values and Knights getting FNP it is indeed discouraging.
This just feels like GW is tired of DG models selling so well compared to Knights and wants to engineer a shift in the market, man I hope GW gives us more in the department of resilience cuz this news is totally killing my former urge to make another army.
Sorry for freaking out I think it's just jealousy at the more impressive looking previews.
I think Toughness might be a more reliable stat in 10th and since a lot of our stuff has lethal hits I think we'll do pretty well damage wise able to auto wound on alot of our 6s.
Also the PBCs Mortar is going to force people to take Battle Shock tests, which is going to be the most abused tactic from a lot of armies in10th IMO. With this we can combine it with out new sticky objectives to try and outscore people by forcing them off objectives while being able to ignore the same problem.
That with the area around us causing -1 I think we look pretty good in close combat, but with the slower movement it seems like it's going to be a game or luring our opponent to us making for tough matchups.
I'm looking at it this way - DG were durable as rocks when we had Armor of Contempt. With AP getting culled across the board it's essentially like getting AoC back and there also is no more "safe" overcharging, TH getting nerfed and "ignore invul saves" going away. There is a chance that durability might just be high enough.
There also is a huge question mark on how durable PBC, drones, MBH and daemon princes will be.
There is no way to tell without playing the game though. In general, I'm a lot less worried about losing -1 damage than I was about losing 5++ FNP. And even that worked out ok in the end.
Yeah, honestly I’m pretty fine with most of the changes that have been made, as it seems like they don’t want to make anti-tank weapons necessary against our terminators. However, after a look back at the weapons on the Blightlords, I’m kind of disappointed. Where we used to always get 4 shots with our combi-bolters now most of the time we will probably get 4 shots with mortal wounds on 6s on the turn they teleport in, but then 2 shots for the rest of the game with that unit. We really do just have to wait and see though. I’d be disappointed if we were turned into an army that became extremely reliant on demon engines though.
FoxHybrid wrote: Yeah, honestly I’m pretty fine with most of the changes that have been made, as it seems like they don’t want to make anti-tank weapons necessary against our terminators. However, after a look back at the weapons on the Blightlords, I’m kind of disappointed. Where we used to always get 4 shots with our combi-bolters now most of the time we will probably get 4 shots with mortal wounds on 6s on the turn they teleport in, but then 2 shots for the rest of the game with that unit. We really do just have to wait and see though. I’d be disappointed if we were turned into an army that became extremely reliant on demon engines though.
Maybe I got something wrong, but plague bolter is A2, rapid fire 2, the combi weapon is A1, rapid fire 1. So at 12" you get six shots total, at 24" three shots.
Jidmah wrote: I'm looking at it this way - DG were durable as rocks when we had Armor of Contempt. With AP getting culled across the board it's essentially like getting AoC back and there also is no more "safe" overcharging, TH getting nerfed and "ignore invul saves" going away. There is a chance that durability might just be high enough.
There also is a huge question mark on how durable PBC, drones, MBH and daemon princes will be.
There is no way to tell without playing the game though.
In general, I'm a lot less worried about losing -1 damage than I was about losing 5++ FNP. And even that worked out ok in the end.
Sure, but a general reduction in damage doesn't make us, specifically, tanky. It just means the baseline damage of units is lower than it used to be.
Death Guard should be substantially more durable than regular Space Marines.
tneva82 wrote: If you shoot 2 shots rest of game you have bigger problems like your expensive unit not doing any melee
Yeah, I’ll admit that I was kind of looking at it from the most pessimistic mindset I could, where your opponent stays just over 16” away, preventing us from charging or getting rapid fire. Also, I bet that the Blightlords will probably be able to get into melee at least once, especially if their shooting doesn’t completely wipe the unit they deepstruck next to. I do hope that Blightlord Terminators are decent on the tabletop as I am really looking forward to getting my first box of them soon and I would love if they were decent in addition to having excellent models. Thanks for the reality check, I think all of the people panicking over the faction focus has put me a little on edge.
Maybe I got something wrong, but plague bolter is A2, rapid fire 2, the combi weapon is A1, rapid fire 1. So at 12" you get six shots total, at 24" three shots.
Was there something that said we can shoot bith the combi-bolter profile and the combi-weapon profile? If so, I will gladly change my opinion on the Blightlords’ weapons.
Also, I think I like the changes to the Blightlord melee weapons. If we compare an average of the stats of the Balesword and Bubotic Axe from 9th to the Bubotic Blade statline from 10th, we gain an attack, half a point a strength and we lose half a point of AP, so I think we made pretty well out of that. And that’s before even thinking about comparing Lethal Hits to Plague Weapon. Overall, I think consolidating the Balesword and Bubotic Axe is good because now it means I can distribute them however I want and just think about how the model will look. Also, I like how the flail now has some tradeoffs to it and isn’t just an auto take.
Finally, with what has been revealed about 10th so far, what do we think will be the best special weapon on Blightlords? My bet is on the Reaper Autocannon, that thing looks like a beast.
FoxHybrid wrote: Was there something that said we can shoot bith the combi-bolter profile and the combi-weapon profile? If so, I will gladly change my opinion on the Blightlords’ weapons.
"Chose one" weapons have a triangle in front of them, with an explanation on the bottom. You can see this being used for the Plague Wind on the Malignant Plaguecaster.
From the rulebook leaks we know that infantry can now shoot all ranged weapons they are equipped with.
Finally, with what has been revealed about 10th so far, what do we think will be the best special weapon on Blightlords? My bet is on the Reaper Autocannon, that thing looks like a beast.
Points will matter a lot, but if feel like both the plague spewer (because of overwatch) and the autocannon will be relevant. The blight launcher feels meh.
I was expecting the Combi-weapon to be a straight replacement for a (Plague) Combi-bolter, so you only get one or the other. But we'll need to wait and see (boo) the back of the sheet.
Agree that for me the Blight Launcher looks the worst option in 10th.
EightFoldPath wrote: I was expecting the Combi-weapon to be a straight replacement for a (Plague) Combi-bolter, so you only get one or the other. But we'll need to wait and see (boo) the back of the sheet.
Agree that for me the Blight Launcher looks the worst option in 10th.
Yea if it is replacement no both. If model has both then both can shoot.
I'm expecting something like 3/5 can swap combi bolter to combi weapon. Matching 9e 1/5 for 3 different combi weapon and presumably kit gives you 3(1 of each) combi weapons.
Seeing the Rubric Marines’ dataslate makes me hopeful that our Plague Marines might have an invul save, however, looking at the Plaguecaster’s dataslate makes me significantly less hopeful. For now, I’ll keep myself occupied by painting the plague marines I have and hoping for the best.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I still think that the Mark of Nurgle will give something akin to DR, both to the Death Guard and regular CSM. Who knows?
If not I would expect this army to do poorly out of the gate. But on the bright side games workshop has been way faster with balance passes lately so we should be playable before long reguardles of how bad we start out.
Did this for TSons, but I'm guessing the attachment tree for DG will be:
Plague Marines will take:
Lord in Power Armour
Malignant Plaguecaster
Biologus Putriifier
Foul Blightspawn
Noxious Blightbringer
Plague Surgeon
Tallyman
(I think there might be a special rule that lets you take 2 bringing the max squad size to 12)
Deathshroud/Blightlords will take:
Typhus
Lord of Virulence
Lord of Contagion
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour
Lord in Terminator Armour (unless banished to legends)
Lone operative but with a condition (probably have to be within 3" of INFANTRY):
Daemon Prince
As such, I could see 2 or 3 Plaguecasters in a Plague Marine heavy build.
I could be completely wrong and you can mix power armour characters with terminator armour units, but it feels very unlike GW.
I'd like the heroes models but I already have my Malignent Plaguecaster and 20 painted plague marines plus another box of 7 more Plague Marines unopened.
I also got 20 pox walkers I haven't built, and a box of Blightlords unopened. But I have 15 blightlords tabletop rdy, no pox walkers though.
Maybe I'll conquer my pile of shame and paint my 20 poxwalkers, 7 Plague Marines, and 5 Blightlords That could take me from 2500ish to 3000ish in DG models.
Depends on how good poxwalkers are this edition I suppose
It’s sad that I won’t get to use the Contemptor Dreadnought that I just bought in competitive matches. It’s close enough to work as a Helbrute, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, did anyone watch the Demons vs Death Guard stream? I haven’t watched it and would love to hear more about our rules without having to scour a vod for them.
Just to preface this death guard look to be in a rough spot to me.
No points where shown but the 2,000 point army looked very close in amount of stuff as we have right now.
Foul blight spawn looks pretty good. Gives fights first to plague marines as that is the only unit he can be attached to.
LoV looks great can be attached to blightlords or deathshround while leading he alows ranged attacks to rerolls the wound roll and if he can see an enemy unit than your amrys blast wepons get +1 to hit and ignore cover.
Plague marines don't look great M5 T5 W2
Lost plague flail and icons, get +1 to battleshock rolls when near objectives as his thir ability.
Plague burst crawlers are weirdly only toughness 10. We already saw the morter in our preview but entropy cannons are range 24 S10 so bit of a disappointment their. They still look decent.
Morty is M10 T12 S2+ W16 L5+ OC6 no loan operative or leader ability so he can be targeted. He did loose titanic so he can be hidden behind obscuring cover though he is huge so that might be tough. 5 attacks on his heavt profile with silence 15 for sweeps. Heavy attacks are 2+ S14 ap-3 4damage.
They lost the match to demons and I think morty was shot off the board turn 2 by a small unit of flamers and a lord of change, be'lakor may have helped and a keeper though not sure how much they added to the ranged attacks.
Morty killed 2 flamers in Melle I believe.
I would say if you can find the time watch it and see what you think.
Morty was shot t1, then faced 2 greater daemons and be'lakor. And still nearly survivea but last chance 4 dice, 2 6's to wound doing 6mw from kos finished.
So 1st turn tanking fire and then approx close to 1000pts plus good dice rolling to kill him off
You can make a full melee 5 man Plague Marine squad, either 3 x Heavy/2 x Bubotic or the other way around, but can only get 9 melee Plague Marines in a squad of 10. Although 2 x Heavy Flamer look a good option in a 10 man, just drop one melee weapon.
The Plagueburst Crawler and the Land Raider, a tale from 9th to 10th.
In 9th, a PBC did 4.6 wounds from Entropys/Mortar to a loyalist Land Raider. In 10th, a PBC does 3.4. So, less lethal edition, that makes some sense.
Note, Lethal hits turns the odds of hitting + wounding at BS3 and 5s to wound into the same as hitting and wounding at BS3 and 4s to wound. This was taken into account and didn't help .
So, in 9th a Land Raider did 3.6 wounds from Lascannons/Heavy Bolters to a PBC. In 10th, a Land Raider does 5.8 wounds to a PBC. Hmmm.
The PBC entropy cannon has lost range from 36 down to 24. Gained 1 move and a 2+ save. The extra save was taken into account and didn't help.
I didn't give either target cover.
So PBC was 145, Land Raider was 245 in 9th. Either a PBC is cheaper or a Land Raider is more expensive?
Anybody watch Eldar last name night? I dident stay up but I thought they would be strongest with some flavor of space marines a close second.
What do our odds look like? Can we beat Eldar?
We have seen most of our rules and data sheets as well as knowing the rules of the game. While we still don't know points cost judging from the 2000 point game they ran the other day they look about the same.
It feels like we're being forced into some kind of turtle strategy for our meta, at least that's how I'm starting to feel is going to be the optimal way to play Death Guard for the next couple of years.
I think a rhino with a squad of plague marines is going to be a must for securing objectives early on while having the max ammount of PBCs to shoot mortars and battle shock our enemies off their objectives. We havn't seen all the data sheets for things like Deathshroud Termies and the Bloat Drones, but perhaps those units can act as a proper spearhead and or flanking against infantry.
After what I've seen from GW so far I doubt Poxwalkers will get back Obsec, but it might become necessary to have 20 or so as a meat shield so we don't get tabled. Maybe they'll get immunity to battle shock or something useful idk.
If you say so, pal. If the points are in a similar relation to each other as they are now - which I doubt, considering the PBC dropped from being a main battletank to a fragile artillery tank profile - it is unlikely that a single character that requires a terminator bodyguard unit and LoS to tanks you want to be hiding will be worth bringing just to buff two PBC and nothing else.
Unless you bring some defilers or plasma cannon hellbrutes on top of your PBC, I don't see him anywhere near "mandatory".
I haven't seen the actual battlereports, but going from the leaked datasheets - maybe the Icon bearer received its own datasheet that we just haven't seen, yet?
Did they use Plague Marines with icons (that would have to be just a unitfiller) in one of these?
I haven't seen the actual battlereports, but going from the leaked datasheets - maybe the Icon bearer received its own datasheet that we just haven't seen, yet?
Did they use Plague Marines with icons (that would have to be just a unitfiller) in one of these?
No they did not. As of right now most are hoping since you can buy the guy seperatly that he is a stand alone leader type.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So it looks like blighthualers are our best anti tank unit. How many does it take to drop a knight? Anybody know/ can run the numbers?
You can make a full melee 5 man Plague Marine squad, either 3 x Heavy/2 x Bubotic or the other way around, but can only get 9 melee Plague Marines in a squad of 10. Although 2 x Heavy Flamer look a good option in a 10 man, just drop one melee weapon.
The Plagueburst Crawler and the Land Raider, a tale from 9th to 10th.
In 9th, a PBC did 4.6 wounds from Entropys/Mortar to a loyalist Land Raider. In 10th, a PBC does 3.4. So, less lethal edition, that makes some sense.
Note, Lethal hits turns the odds of hitting + wounding at BS3 and 5s to wound into the same as hitting and wounding at BS3 and 4s to wound. This was taken into account and didn't help .
So, in 9th a Land Raider did 3.6 wounds from Lascannons/Heavy Bolters to a PBC. In 10th, a Land Raider does 5.8 wounds to a PBC. Hmmm.
The PBC entropy cannon has lost range from 36 down to 24. Gained 1 move and a 2+ save. The extra save was taken into account and didn't help.
I didn't give either target cover.
So PBC was 145, Land Raider was 245 in 9th. Either a PBC is cheaper or a Land Raider is more expensive?
If we do the same figures for MBH vs LR assuming they are over 12" away from each other in the first few turns.
9th ed MBH (just krak/melta) did 2.5 wounds to the LR. 10th ed MBH does 2.5 wounds to the LR.
9th ed LR (just las/heavy bolter) did 3.6 wounds to the MBH. 10th ed LR does 6.7 wounds to the MBH.
MBH was down to 110 by the end of the edition to a LR's 245.
Also, I was trying to wrap my head around Daemon Princes and they are now more like Grey Knight Grand Master Nemesis Dread Knights in 10th.
Both 2+/4++, but the GMNDK is T8 to the DP T11 but the DP is W10 to the GMNDK W13 (but degrades).
So 10th ed DP (ranged and then melee) into a GMNDK is 5.4 wounds while a GMNDK (psilencer/psycannon/sword) is 7 wounds (or 3.7 wounds for the 2nd GMNDK into a 2nd DP).
The flying DP does 6.6 wounds but a GMNDK now does 9.5 (or 5.4).
Given the GMNDK has more ranged attacks I feel like both types of DP should be coming in at less than one of them armed with psilencer/psycannon/sword.
Boosykes wrote: Well at least we should have access to land Raiders hopefully they are good.
Yeah but that doesn't work unless Land Raiders get priced differently in different armies.
Because a DG Land Raider will not be as good as a World Eaters Land Raider (6+++) which will not be as good as a Thousand Sons Land Raider (remove all armour saves/free strategem) which will not be as good as a Space Marine Land Raider (Oaths of Moment/Fall back and shoot doctrine). So if our Land Raiders are ok, Space Marine Land Raiders are probably too good.
But they may not be. Because right now in 9th, points for Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, etc are mainly the same.
A TS Predator with a 5++ is the same as a DG Predator.
An Iron Hands Predator with +1AP, re-roll 1s to hit, a 6+++ and less degrading is... Yes you guessed it, the same as a DG Predator.
And there was a stickyness in 9th of points for things like power armour marines and terminator marines across the various factions. It was baffling that Blightlords and Scarab Occults were both 40 points for the whole of 9th.
So, in 9th, GW were idiots in terms of costing these units.
In two weeks or so, we will know if GW are still idiots.
To be fair I agree with you. When I made those two poll in general chat (strongest and weakest factions based solely on the faction focus I voted for death guard as worst and eldar as strongest. This was well before the exhibition matches.
Looking so far like I was right on the money but it's still too early to know if death guard are the weakest or simply very weak.
So I agree we look terrible. Now is their any way to make them work? How can we beat eldar for example.
At this point its obvious death guard are going to be near the bottom and eldar will be near the top but how can we squeeze every drop of puss out of this army and maybe find a combo that will do at least some work.
Yes, he's less killy, but not much imo. But he's consistently tougher in this edition being T12 AND you can choose to keep Miasma up for +1 cover AND he's now 2+ save (instead of 3+ save in 9th).
Also, his Lord of the Death Guard Aura seems flavorful and interesting!
Lord of the Death Guard is very interesting. As it prevents modifications to characteristics, it should include the OC characteristic i think? So even battleshocked DG units near him will keep their OC stat.
One other thing I think will need playtesting to understand is how good a 2+ armour save (Morty, PBCs, DPs, termies) is when getting cover. Testing how easy it is to get the cover and then how much survivability a 1+ gives.
EightFoldPath wrote: Lord of the Death Guard is very interesting. As it prevents modifications to characteristics, it should include the OC characteristic i think? So even battleshocked DG units near him will keep their OC stat.
One other thing I think will need playtesting to understand is how good a 2+ armour save (Morty, PBCs, DPs, termies) is when getting cover. Testing how easy it is to get the cover and then how much survivability a 1+ gives.
Great insight I hadn't even thought of morty ignoring OC modification
EightFoldPath wrote: Lord of the Death Guard is very interesting. As it prevents modifications to characteristics, it should include the OC characteristic i think? So even battleshocked DG units near him will keep their OC stat.
One other thing I think will need playtesting to understand is how good a 2+ armour save (Morty, PBCs, DPs, termies) is when getting cover. Testing how easy it is to get the cover and then how much survivability a 1+ gives.
Great insight I hadn't even thought of morty ignoring OC modification
It does look like Morty's aura ignores OC modification.
Given how it looks like Battleshock may be common, that's pretty dang good!
One other thing I think will need playtesting to understand is how good a 2+ armour save (Morty, PBCs, DPs, termies) is when getting cover. Testing how easy it is to get the cover and then how much survivability a 1+ gives.
For any AP 1 or stronger, seems like maximizing cover would give quite a bit of benefit.
The one silver lining in the underwhelming Blightlords datasheet is the 4 attacks per model in combat with the basic weapon. They basically have the 9th ed CSM accursed weapon with 1 less AP down to 2, lethal hits and a -1T aura in range.
40 attacks instead of 31 attacks on a "shooting" Blightlord unit is a significant improvement, and with only AP1 I would be tempted to at least try out dropping the flails (if they cost ponts again).
I quite like the look of 6 combi-weapons, 2 spewers, 2 autocannons.
Although I hate both Lethal Hits and Anti-Infantry 2+/4+ when their army rule is -1T.
I wonder if anyone ever suggested to GW to make their contagion -1S instead of -1T?
The -1 toughness still comes in to play for all those 6 you didn't roll in the to hit phase, and the weapons in the squad that don't have anti in their description.
Long post... I was thinking that after the #foregworldmassacre DG are looking a little light on units to choose from and now have the Tyranids as a comparison (also throwing in TSons as fellow massacre victims).
You could argue that Leaders don't count as they are just unit attachments, and say the DG roster consists of 19 units.
Spoiler:
Leaders
Typhus
Lord of Contagion
Lord of Virulence
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour
Lord in Terminator Armour
Malignant Plaguecaster
Biologus Putrifier
Foul Blightspawn
Noxious Blightbringer
Plague Surgeon
Tallyman
Lord in Power Armour
TSons:
8 Leaders
3 Bodyguard
2 Misc Infantry/Beasts/Swarms
0 Lone Operatives
4 Monsters
8 Vehicles
25 Total (or 17 if not counting Leaders)
Spoiler:
Leaders
Ahriman
Exalted Sorcerer
Sorcerer
Infernal Master
Terminator Sorcerer
Ahriman on Disc (could be lone operative and some of the other items in this are a bit hand wavey as we don't know too much about the faction)
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc (could be lone operative)
Tzaangor Shaman
We still have 14 DG datasheets to see (6 of them are Leaders) and so far DG have 0 Lone Operatives, 0 Stealth, 0 Scouts, 0 Infiltrators, 0 Precision on weapons. Fingers crossed we get a 0CP per battle round when you do a strategem ability on LoC? And maybe a Cloud of Flies Stealth strat?
Comparing datasheets with Tyranids and I'm again believing that either DG points are going to be lower than some think or Tyranids points are going to be higher than some think. Or GW gonna GW.
I won't be doing a breakdown of the SM sheets to compare for an obvious reason, but my gut feeling is they won't be missing forgeworld like DG miss Leviathans, Deredeos, Decimators or Dread Claw Drop Pods.
Blightlords are the cheapest terminators in the game. Not sure if that is good, but if the 2+ save, T6 and cover actually make the unit durable, that could be something.
I really like the Terminator Sorcerer to join them as well. Gives them more 24" range shooting and more durability in the fight phase as well as being the cheapest terminator character.
The foul blight spawn looks to be an MVP once again. A strong flamer that can combine well with the overwatch strat to deny a chunk of the table, and fight first to make his unit hard to charge well. Maybe hangs with Plague marines with 4x torrent weapons to go hard into overwatch. Depends on if plague marines are any good, or if they can just be blasted off the table with impunity, especially outside of 12"
Poxwalkers seem dead in the water. They deal no damage, and we lost the strats to either deal damage in combat or revive them for movement shenanigans. Cultists are faster and cheaper. I am not sure that the durability of poxwalkers is enough to survive anything that shoots them. Better to be faster and just hide or be able to get to where you need to be to screen.
Not sure what the spawn did to go up in points so much. They were super useful as cheap, throw away bodies with decent movement. Now they seem too pricey to just chuck them away. They have better stats, and might be worth the points, but I am not sure that they serve a purpose in the army.
Fly lost a ton of power. While Mortarian can hide behind ruins, he will be super awkward to move over ruins of any reasonable height with his massive base. Same is true for the Bloat Drones, but they have it a bit better by having a smaller base. (if you are not sure what I mean by this, check the designer commentary on fly units, Mortarian now takes 12" of movement to clear a 4" tall ruin) Just means that some tables with high ruins will be difficult to maneuver around even for our fast flying units.
