AngryAngel80 wrote:
At this point is hateful assault or whatever going to be a deal breaker for anyone ? I know for me it isn't. I would say that it does feel odd that they'd keep the volleys but not the assault/assaulted part why keep one and not the other ?

DG is pretty much the perfect place to ditch it. There just aren't that many 'actual marine' units in the codex, so they can just tweak attacks (or melee weapons, with the Deathshroud) on an individual basis, and then not worry about the effect on all the vehicles and daemon engines. Guns they can't really do that with.
I won't be surprised if it comes back for Chaos Marines, and vanishes again for Thousand Sons.

And yes, 'bespoke, but exactly the same' is just corporate buzzword paradigm trash. Complexity with no payoff.
Though it isn't just Evil versions. That Codex Marines put deployment rules in a sidebar and include three differently named but the same versions of 'deep strike' is just galling. Concealed positions is at least slightly different, and combat squads is a completely unrelated rule, but DFA, Outflank and Teleport Strike are all the same thing.

I do see your point, but at the same time the different names add flavour.

Obviously this is reductio ad absurdum, but why have fusion v melta, or power klaws v power fists. Chaos has daemonic saves and loyalists have iron halos.

As to your first question, no not at all. I think it would be nice to have intercessors and plague marines with the same number of attacks, but I think the whole codex gaining an attack seems a bit much.

Obviously this is reductio ad absurdum, but why have fusion v melta, or power klaws v power fists.

Well... the game did just fine without all that for multiple editions.

When orks started using shootas instead of boltguns (for example), they legitimately had a different profile so needed a separate name.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I do see your point, but at the same time the different names add flavour.

Obviously this is reductio ad absurdum, but why have fusion v melta, or power klaws v power fists. Chaos has daemonic saves and loyalists have iron halos.

As to your first question, no not at all. I think it would be nice to have intercessors and plague marines with the same number of attacks, but I think the whole codex gaining an attack seems a bit much.

My point is just yes, have different fluff reasons for the things. However when they do the same thing, just say it and have all the fluff you want for why it happens that way. Like when i started things that came down anywhere on the board and scattered was just deep strike, didn't matter why they did it, came from underground, teleported, fell from the sky, fell off an apple cart, etc. It was just deep strike and if I said " Hey these units are deep striking later " They all instantly knew what was happening with them, how they did it didn't matter outside of a fluff talk of why they could do that.

Now they teleport, come from golden light, were there all along, crawl from the earth, appear in a stinky cloud, etc, etc with strange names that if you say them people often give you a look like you are speaking madness until you explain. " They're just coming in over 9 inches away. " It's just irritating is all.

Well considering fusion was just melta they handled that by it having the melta rule. Power Klaws were just power fists on Orks, it wasn't hard to keep track of all the weapons and all someone had to say was " So what is a fusion gun ? " " Oh it's a melta.." " Oh, ok, sounds good whats its range ? " Etc, it flowed better and didn't have difference just to make it different for no real in game benefit outside your opponent needing to ask you over and over what your weapons did.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


I will say I really do hate the name changes, why not just be the same as the loyalists ? Is shock assault not " evil " enough ? Name change for name change sake is so stupid and makes some of the bad factions feel like Dr Evils in disguise. As well it would be easier for newer players and old vets aside to keep them all in mind if shared abilities had the same names for remembering them.

"Man, if only we had some sort of USR dictionary that was defined and understood by everyone who played the game so anytime they looked at a unit entry, they could tell immediately what it did. Wouldn't that be something?" he said, 5th Edition'lly.


Edit: FWIW, this was sarcasm directed at GW, not the above poster. I think 5th Edition was the easiest and most fluid edition. 9th has come close, but it will forever perplex me why they felt the need to get rid of USRs and then make the rules have many interations of the same rule with different names.

 puma713 wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


I will say I really do hate the name changes, why not just be the same as the loyalists ? Is shock assault not " evil " enough ? Name change for name change sake is so stupid and makes some of the bad factions feel like Dr Evils in disguise. As well it would be easier for newer players and old vets aside to keep them all in mind if shared abilities had the same names for remembering them.

"Man, if only we had some sort of USR dictionary that was defined and understood by everyone who played the game so anytime they looked at a unit entry, they could tell immediately what it did. Wouldn't that be something?" he said, 5th Edition'lly.


Edit: FWIW, this was sarcasm directed at GW, not the above poster. I think 5th Edition was the easiest and most fluid edition. 9th has come close, but it will forever perplex me why they felt the need to get rid of USRs and then make the rules have many interations of the same rule with different names.

I picked up the implication and appreciated it. Yeah, weren't those the days when we could easily understand a unit upon casual examination ?

Abaddon303 wrote:
I do see your point, but at the same time the different names add flavour.

Obviously this is reductio ad absurdum, but why have fusion v melta, or power klaws v power fists. Chaos has daemonic saves and loyalists have iron halos.

The analogy wouldn't be not having a special rule, it would be something like this:

Teleport Strike: This unit may Deep Strike.


If daemonic and iron halos worked like deep strike rules currently do each dataslate would be like:

Iron Halo: When this model would make a save roll, it may elect to use its Iron Halo instead. Roll a d6, on a 4+ the wound is deflected and no damage from that wound is allocated, exactly as if this model had passed a save roll. The Iron Halo may not be used against mortal wounds.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I do see your point, but at the same time the different names add flavour.

Obviously this is reductio ad absurdum, but why have fusion v melta, or power klaws v power fists. Chaos has daemonic saves and loyalists have iron halos.

The analogy wouldn't be not having a special rule, it would be something like this:

Teleport Strike: This unit may Deep Strike.


If daemonic and iron halos worked like deep strike rules currently do each dataslate would be like:

Iron Halo: When this model would make a save roll, it may elect to use its Iron Halo instead. Roll a d6, on a 4+ the wound is deflected and no damage from that wound is allocated, exactly as if this model had passed a save roll. The Iron Halo may not be used against mortal wounds.

Well okay that's something I could probably get behind. I started at the beginning of 8th so I'm unfamiliar with the concept of universal basic rules.

I would say I don't think it's that big an issue right now tho, generally if somebody tells me about an unfamiliar rule I can recognise it's equivalent and quickly understand how it works.

I'd also say that rules are generally not that wildly different to the point that you can recognise when something isn't right. So when an opponent tells me his unit is gonna emerge from his space Badger hole 7 inches from my unit I'd ask for clarity because it seems to not follow the basic principles of the game.

Yes but, wouldn't it be easier if there was a basic rule that could be easily referenced even if they kept all the names ? Like you get your Tellyporta, and it gives a unit deep strike. Deep strike is the keyword and it does this. Then you don't need to tell people, hey they are in a tellyporta, you can say hey these guys are coming in with deep strike. As opposed to explain what the rule does and then you need to think oh its just like what this unit does. It's still saving time if its known right out the gate.

If you only started around the start of 8th you wouldn't have the frame of reference some players do, like I started around the beginning of 3rd. Not saying that to deride you for being a relative new adopter of the game, we all were new at some point but to say you'd need to really have played it the other way to see how much more of a pain this new way is. This current way is really the only way you have known for the games roll out.

GW went "bespoke" happy when AoS came around, and this infected 8th, to the point where we have repetitive special rules (sometimes duplicated on the same datasheet), and pages and pages of waste space explaining the same thing over and over again.

A system of USRs would alleviate this considerably, and cut down on the amount of time GW has to waste copying things over and over again. Moreover, the less instances there are of a rule, the less chance there is of making a mistake and it cuts down on the amount of time require to correct errors.

Combined with the Keyword system, you could make things very easy. Even something as simple as Aura (X). What is that? You look up the USR for 'Aura', and you see that Auras affect units with the "Core" keyword within a distance in inches indicated by the number in parentheses. You wouldn't need to constantly restate that.

Yeap, simplify but deepen would be wonderful. If that makes sense to anyone.

Which is why I wouldn't mind the loss of shock assault for DG if it gives just a static +1 attack. For starters I don't need to keep track of what combat round it is and constant to me is better than situational. It's also one less rule with a bespoke name I need to remember and tell someone then explain.

Though I don't get why loyalists keep it and other chaos marines, that part feels bad.

GW couldn’t even keep USRs straight. Anyone remember Zealot?
Zealot: this model has Fearless and Hate.

angryboy2k wrote:
GW couldn’t even keep USRs straight. Anyone remember Zealot?
Zealot: this model has Fearless and Hate.

I'll take that over the 4 slightly different versions of True Grit we had by the end of 3rd Ed.

Yes but I'd say and saw most players got things perfectly well with it. Zealot was one of those rare exceptions and that was mostly because it hardly ever came up, at least in most of the games I played.

Some rules, used very rarely but for a few units no one saw were always an issue. Like artillery was rarely used or understood for a long time. Citing another game system, ask a Magic player about banding, watch their head explode. One of the first rules in the game but needlessly and strangely complex. I did love me some banding though but then..I do like to watch the world burn.

I've been reading 8th/9th rules online, and it's exhausting. Bespokeapalooza. Writing every. Single. Rule out. Few to no formulas. <keywords> that don't need to <exist> for good gameplay. Yeesh.

Astartes Chainswords, for example. Firstly, tacking "Astartes" onto the name is not helpful- It's in the marine codex, no duh it's a marine chainsword. Guard chainswords are different? Oh no! How will players ever communicate? "My Comissar makes X attacks" "Ok." Then there's "When the bearer of an ASTARTES CHAINSWORD makes an attack, it makes one additional attack with that weapon. Gross.

Chainsword:

S: User

A: +1

AP: -1

Psychic powers are even worse........


Automatically Appended Next Post:

angryboy2k wrote:
GW couldn’t even keep USRs straight. Anyone remember Zealot?
Zealot: this model has Fearless and Hate.

"GW can't do anything right, so you are not allowed to discuss improvements to their games!"

You picked an outlier to prove your point.... Zealot should have been two rules, yes. Buuuuut.....

Gets Hot
Sniper
Stealth
Infiltrate
Scout
Deep Strike
Fleet

Etc. etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but I'd say and saw most players got things perfectly well with it. Zealot was one of those rare exceptions and that was mostly because it hardly ever came up, at least in most of the games I played.

Some rules, used very rarely but for a few units no one saw were always an issue. Like artillery was rarely used or understood for a long time. Citing another game system, ask a Magic player about banding, watch their head explode. One of the first rules in the game but needlessly and strangely complex. I did love me some banding though but then..I do like to watch the world burn.

Banding ftw!

angryboy2k wrote:
GW couldn’t even keep USRs straight. Anyone remember Zealot?
Zealot: this model has Fearless and Hate.

Zealot actually made it so that a Character having it would give Hatred to the unit it was attached to. Regular Hatred didn't do that.

So it super specific as a fringe case and maybe Hatred should've just been conferred for a whole unit for simplicity sake, but that's not what happened.

A better USR of old to hate on would have been Missile Lock.

To my knowledge it was only given to like 1 unit that couldn't even make use of it

I don't even remember what that did

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't even remember what that did

One Use Only weapons only scatter 1d6"

Yes, they did really need USRs for some things and others, like missile lock, less so.

 puma713 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

Just give me back Felthius and the easy2build PM's, at least those had value for beginners and people wanting to expand their DG further.

Watch them make the Orb of Dessication really good, actually, driving Felthius' value through the roof.

Here’s hoping.
Then I can sell this Felthius box for a pretty penny..

I actually wonder what the LoC's aura is going to be, now that Nurgle's Gift has moved to a higher calling.

 Jidmah wrote:
I actually wonder what the LoC's aura is going to be, now that Nurgle's Gift has moved to a higher calling.

I'm curious as well, I tended to just proxy him as a term armor lord in the games I used him. Though I am very happy for the stat and ability changes to chaos lords and such. I hope the LoC is good on his own now. I'll add however I get some may have loved him all this time but he just wasn't as useful to me as the re roll 1's on the lord for a support character and beatstick of having the lord and DP as opposed to the LoC.

I loved when he got the re-roll aura stratagem, maybe he just gets that. As a support character, his weapons and extra resilience actually makes a difference, since people go after him to take out his force multiplication.

 Jidmah wrote:
I actually wonder what the LoC's aura is going to be, now that Nurgle's Gift has moved to a higher calling.

I was wondering, too.
I had the thought they might ditch the chaos lord entirely and give the LOC reroll ones, but apparently that's not the case.
Maybe some aura for termis only while the Chaos lord has an aura for Core? Or, since he's still called lord of Contagion, he might increase the range or the turn number of contagions, too. We can only guess at this point.

The lack of USRs in the last couple of editions has been a major factor in my switching to F28: War Always Changes, for my 40K gaming. It's like a streamlined 5th, with some hints of 6th, and somewhat simplified Infinity-style reactions, and rules for all your 40K factions...

I am mostly just in this thread to see if there's some new models for my Sickness Enclave list.

I think we can all agree that deep strike and feel no pain need to come back as terms.

Combined with Plague Weapons’ ability to re-roll wound rolls of 1, your Core units will have an easier time than ever inflicting a barrage of wounds that bypass the flimsy armour of the Corpse-Emperor’s teeming masses. If dishing out mortal wounds is on the cards, their peerless ability to direct artillery fire allows them to reduce the cost of the Blight Bombardment Stratagem by 1CP.

As recipients of one of the Mantles of Corruption, Lords of Virulence are graced by the hand of Mortarion himself, the chosen son of Nurgle, and elevated above their peers to represent the lethal contagions of their spiritual grandfather’s garden. Flanked by thunderous war machines and the deadly legions of the Death Guard, few can withstand the furious torrent of their combined firepower.

Trash rules as usual: we've had many ranged armies with this Warlord trait that was far less limited and nobody took it anyway but now they're making a character whose only purpose is this exact same rule (and 1 CP discount on a trash Stratagem anyway).

So the vehicle buff character isn't. That solves the mystery of how a 5" move character would support vehicles.

Also a kick in the nuts that the ol putrifier/bombardment combo is gone and replaced with a bad orbital strike?

Should also say that the LoV apparently has "a host of abilities for improving the Marines they lead into battle" so there may be more to him than this aura. Certainly hope so

I hope he has much more. So far nothing screams at me as really useful.

Will be picking one up though, just to paint and add to the ever growing forces of Mortarion.

I suppose if you combine that aura with some strat making bolters be plague weapons then it could be useful.

I am assuming that only PMs, Terminators and maybe possessed will be core. Maybe poxwalkers. If so that is literally only 3 units it can be used on, none of which have a lot of ranged plague weapons.

Deepstriking in with Deathshroud and their flamers going off could do a bit of damage, but that's a lot of points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot Helbrutes, but again no plague weapons on them. We could be surprised and find out that the daemon engines are core?

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
So the vehicle buff character isn't. That solves the mystery of how a 5" move character would support vehicles.

Also a kick in the nuts that the ol putrifier/bombardment combo is gone and replaced with a bad orbital strike?

A little strange since we already had a kind of orbital strike - the nurgle's rot stratagem, which spread mortal wounds around a character model.

I'm hoping the Biologus gets something more interesting now, without using the stratagem his use was very limited.

I’m guessing some of our vehicles must core or have some options. Maybe FBD? This honestly makes no sense otherwise. I can’t see PBC getting core. The only plague weapons we have on infantry is blight launchers and plague flame thrower weapon. This does not really do much for that, especially at 120pts.

The damage buff is so small it will never be worth it. This is the same exact trait as the Space Marine Storm of Fire which works on ALL ranged weapons not just plague. I wonder if someone or some trait can make all core units ranged weapons plague weapons.

The new strategem is the same as the space marine codex orbital bombardment, but has the extra mortal wound damage and reduced cost if you take this guy. It also looks like you an use it more than once per game.

I can see that Aura being helpful if all our boltguns become plague weapons... Otherwise that rule would be somewhat underwhelming.

 deathstreak2000 wrote:
I can see that Aura being helpful if all our boltguns become plague weapons... Otherwise that rule would be somewhat underwhelming.

What if Death Guard gets a bolter rule where all bolters are treated as plague weapons? A doctrine like ability. Could very well be and would actually make sense when taken with this HQ character. Currently standard bolters are pretty meh in the grand scheme of things, but making them plague weapons and buffable with this character could make bolters a bit of a more threat than usual.

On the face of it, very underwhelming LoV article. Will still be picking one up but was really hoping he'd be for supporting my backfield PBC... which is looking unlikely now.

My point is just yes, have different fluff reasons for the things. However when they do the same thing, just say it and have all the fluff you want for why it happens that way. Like when i started things that came down anywhere on the board and scattered was just deep strike, didn't matter why they did it, came from underground, teleported, fell from the sky, fell off an apple cart, etc. It was just deep strike and if I said " Hey these units are deep striking later " They all instantly knew what was happening with them, how they did it didn't matter outside of a fluff talk of why they could do that.

Surprised no one has pointed this out yet, but there's a very good reason they have different names now. It has almost nothing at all to do w/the fluff. In past editions, you would get a USR shared by, say 9 units. Then, at some point we would all realize that said rule made "unit X" OP. So GW would nerf the USR. But the nerf hit all 9 units. So now you have the OP unit properly toned down, 6 units that are now not as good as they were (for no good reason), and 2 units that were unintentionally made unplayable because of how bad the change made them. The idea with the new system was that GW could alter the specific "version" of the rule that was causing problems, without touching any other units. Brilliant on paper, but I don't think they actually ever made use of it in that manner in any meaningful way since they implemented it.

On the face of it, very underwhelming LoV article. Will still be picking one up but was really hoping he'd be for supporting my backfield PBC... which is looking unlikely now.

Wasn't a fan of the look of the model from the start, but on top of that, he doesn't seem all that great? I realize there's probably a lot more to him than the article suggests, but he's kind of underwhelming considering it's only the second DG codex ever, and the first in what? 4 years I think? Meh ....

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW went "bespoke" happy when AoS came around, and this infected 8th, to the point where we have repetitive special rules (sometimes duplicated on the same datasheet), and pages and pages of waste space explaining the same thing over and over again.

A system of USRs would alleviate this considerably, and cut down on the amount of time GW has to waste copying things over and over again. Moreover, the less instances there are of a rule, the less chance there is of making a mistake and it cuts down on the amount of time require to correct errors.

Combined with the Keyword system, you could make things very easy. Even something as simple as Aura (X). What is that? You look up the USR for 'Aura', and you see that Auras affect units with the "Core" keyword within a distance in inches indicated by the number in parentheses. You wouldn't need to constantly restate that.

And then you could probably cut down immensely on FAQ space too.

That's...not really improving Daemon Engines. Weren't we told this guy improved Daemon Engines?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's...not really improving Daemon Engines. Weren't we told this guy improved Daemon Engines?

That is what I was tracking. Maybe some are core like MBH and FBD which are out dreadnaught equivalents.

broxus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's...not really improving Daemon Engines. Weren't we told this guy improved Daemon Engines?

That is what I was tracking. Maybe some are core like MBH and FBD which are out dreadnaught equivalents.

But that still isn't just about Daemon Engines. If this guy really just buffs Plague Weapons (and honestly not by a lot), he's kinda pointless. There's just not enough saturation of Plague Weapon attacks at range that would make me consider him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

broxus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's...not really improving Daemon Engines. Weren't we told this guy improved Daemon Engines?

That is what I was tracking. Maybe some are core like MBH and FBD which are out dreadnaught equivalents.

But that still isn't just about Daemon Engines. If this guy really just buffs Plague Weapons (and honestly not by a lot), he's kinda pointless. There's just not enough saturation of Plague Weapon attacks at range that would make me consider him.

My usual opponent is planning on sticking him in a rhino with a bunch of melee marines with a flail. Makes the plague knives more of a threat at least.

Yep very underwhelming rules for the LOV at this stage.

I do think the blight bombardment is a really useful stratagem though, it is such a great tool for breaking up castles, disrupting your opponents plans or area denial. In the right situation it could be game winning and even dropping it in your first command phase could completely swing the game in your favour!

I liked it when i read it in the marine codex although it's pricey. I wouldn't take the LOV purely on the off-chance he could save me a CP for it though

 DrGiggles wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

broxus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's...not really improving Daemon Engines. Weren't we told this guy improved Daemon Engines?

That is what I was tracking. Maybe some are core like MBH and FBD which are out dreadnaught equivalents.

But that still isn't just about Daemon Engines. If this guy really just buffs Plague Weapons (and honestly not by a lot), he's kinda pointless. There's just not enough saturation of Plague Weapon attacks at range that would make me consider him.

My usual opponent is planning on sticking him in a rhino with a bunch of melee marines with a flail. Makes the plague knives more of a threat at least.

He's a terminator though, pretty sure he's barred from rhino Uber rides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Yep very underwhelming rules for the LOV at this stage.

I do think the blight bombardment is a really useful stratagem though, it is such a great tool for breaking up castles, disrupting your opponents plans or area denial. In the right situation it could be game winning and even dropping it in your first command phase could completely swing the game in your favour!

I liked it when i read it in the marine codex although it's pricey. I wouldn't take the LOV purely on the off-chance he could save me a CP for it though

Blight Bombardment is just a copy paste strat from marines isn't it? Would have been nice if they actually leaned on the blight side and made it effect an army differently, like maybe permanently rad saturating an objective or something.

My usual opponent is planning on sticking him in a rhino with a bunch of melee marines with a flail. Makes the plague knives more of a threat at least.

Unless I missed a change, Terminator models can't ride in Rhinos.

For the LoV - They caught a TON of flakk from pretty much all directions when they first announced this guy. They were bombarded with comments about how bad it was to have a slow moving character attempting to buff our fastest units. IDK when the codex was actually printed, but I have to wonder if they changed his rules at the last second based on the angry mobs?

Tycho wrote:

My usual opponent is planning on sticking him in a rhino with a bunch of melee marines with a flail. Makes the plague knives more of a threat at least.

Unless I missed a change, Terminator models can't ride in Rhinos.

For the LoV - They caught a TON of flakk from pretty much all directions when they first announced this guy. They were bombarded with comments about how bad it was to have a slow moving character attempting to buff our fastest units. IDK when the codex was actually printed, but I have to wonder if they changed his rules at the last second based on the angry mobs?

He CAN keep up with the fastest units though since he's a Terminator, which means free Deep Strike.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

broxus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's...not really improving Daemon Engines. Weren't we told this guy improved Daemon Engines?

That is what I was tracking. Maybe some are core like MBH and FBD which are out dreadnaught equivalents.

But that still isn't just about Daemon Engines. If this guy really just buffs Plague Weapons (and honestly not by a lot), he's kinda pointless. There's just not enough saturation of Plague Weapon attacks at range that would make me consider him.

My usual opponent is planning on sticking him in a rhino with a bunch of melee marines with a flail. Makes the plague knives more of a threat at least.

He's a terminator though, pretty sure he's barred from rhino Uber rides.

Also it only works on RANGED attacks, but apart from it not working on flails and him not being able to be in a Rhino, it's a good plan!

 Red Corsair wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Yep very underwhelming rules for the LOV at this stage.

I do think the blight bombardment is a really useful stratagem though, it is such a great tool for breaking up castles, disrupting your opponents plans or area denial. In the right situation it could be game winning and even dropping it in your first command phase could completely swing the game in your favour!

I liked it when i read it in the marine codex although it's pricey. I wouldn't take the LOV purely on the off-chance he could save me a CP for it though

Blight Bombardment is just a copy paste strat from marines isn't it? Would have been nice if they actually leaned on the blight side and made it effect an army differently, like maybe permanently rad saturating an objective or something.

It's slightly different
Marine Version: +1 to hit if within 3", 6+ does D6 wounds
DG Version: +1 to hit if infantry, 7+ does D6 wounds

Doohicky wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

broxus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's...not really improving Daemon Engines. Weren't we told this guy improved Daemon Engines?

That is what I was tracking. Maybe some are core like MBH and FBD which are out dreadnaught equivalents.

But that still isn't just about Daemon Engines. If this guy really just buffs Plague Weapons (and honestly not by a lot), he's kinda pointless. There's just not enough saturation of Plague Weapon attacks at range that would make me consider him.

My usual opponent is planning on sticking him in a rhino with a bunch of melee marines with a flail. Makes the plague knives more of a threat at least.

He's a terminator though, pretty sure he's barred from rhino Uber rides.

Also it only works on RANGED attacks, but apart from it not working on flails and him not being able to be in a Rhino, it's a good plan!

 Red Corsair wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Yep very underwhelming rules for the LOV at this stage.

I do think the blight bombardment is a really useful stratagem though, it is such a great tool for breaking up castles, disrupting your opponents plans or area denial. In the right situation it could be game winning and even dropping it in your first command phase could completely swing the game in your favour!

I liked it when i read it in the marine codex although it's pricey. I wouldn't take the LOV purely on the off-chance he could save me a CP for it though

Blight Bombardment is just a copy paste strat from marines isn't it? Would have been nice if they actually leaned on the blight side and made it effect an army differently, like maybe permanently rad saturating an objective or something.

It's slightly different
Marine Version: +1 to hit if within 3", 6+ does D6 wounds
DG Version: +1 to hit if infantry, 7+ does D6 wounds

That's right, which makes it an even bigger threat for us. That 6" radius is massive. Imagine dropping that fist turn around 3" ahead of your opponents footslogging heavy melta eradicators etc, in their movement they either have to go backwards possibly keeping them out of the game a couple of turns or risk advancing through the aura, even if they make it unscathed you've just shut down their shooting for a turn. Can really exploit bottlenecks with melee armies etc. I'm really chuffed we have this strat now.

Sucks to lose the old blight bombardment tho.

Abaddon303 wrote:



Sucks to lose the old blight bombardment tho.

It could be wrapped up in the Biologus naturally. We don't know yet.

I really hate losing FNP!
It sucks ass for everone not playing against marines. But it seems like everyone is, so I guess I just have a sucky meta now.

broxus wrote:
The new strategem is the same as the space marine codex orbital bombardment, but has the extra mortal wound damage and reduced cost if you take this guy. It also looks like you an use it more than once per game.

...apart from where it says "You can only use this Strategem once." as the final sentence.

The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

The LOV seems like infantry support, he's the guy who deep strikes near a couple cc squads of Plague Marines who are ready to clear some space on the table.

Don't know if I will buy another $30 character model, will probably convert one from parts. But I think he has a use in most armies.

 Dysartes wrote:

broxus wrote:
The new strategem is the same as the space marine codex orbital bombardment, but has the extra mortal wound damage and reduced cost if you take this guy. It also looks like you an use it more than once per game.

...apart from where it says "You can only use this Strategem once." as the final sentence.

Haha you are right don’t know how I missed that. This literally makes him the worst character in the codex (and possibly the game) unless there is something that hasn’t been revealed yet (ie more ranged plague weapons and larger pool of CORE units). Right now with what the genera consensus is it would honestly only buff blight launchers and heavy blight launchers within 6” which makes zero sense. 120 points for 20% a turn is silly. That equates to 1 extra damage per game.

He CAN keep up with the fastest units though since he's a Terminator, which means free Deep Strike.

Yeah, I just feel like being able to meet them at a certain place and time ≠ actually escorting them upfield if that makes sense. I feel like it kind of limits his utility.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

The LOV seems like infantry support, he's the guy who deep strikes near a couple cc squads of Plague Marines who are ready to clear some space on the table.

Don't know if I will buy another $30 character model, will probably convert one from parts. But I think he has a use in most armies.

What would be the reason to DS him near CC PM squads? As it stands he gives them no buffs whatsoever. All you get is a double heavy flamer.

I think the only way to get anything out of him is to deepstrike him with Deathshroud Termintators and hope to roll high on the number of shots with their flamers. Even then it would not exactly add much to them.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

Think of him as a Rickroll. 'What is LoV? Baby don't hurt me..'

 Kall3m0n wrote:
I really hate losing FNP!
It sucks ass for everone not playing against marines. But it seems like everyone is, so I guess I just have a sucky meta now.

Same here. I try not to get my hopes up that the Surgeon will actually provide something against D1 weapons.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

Make LOV, not war? I mean, I guess that's arguably more of a Slaanesh approach, though they'd prefer both.

 BleachHawk wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
I really hate losing FNP!
It sucks ass for everone not playing against marines. But it seems like everyone is, so I guess I just have a sucky meta now.

Same here. I try not to get my hopes up that the Surgeon will actually provide something against D1 weapons.

Yeah! Or mortal wounds, damn it! Plus, it feels a bit like we've lost some of the things that made DG feel unique. PLus, we lost a lot of resilliance. I don't care that they are more resilient against 2D weapons. I don't face any anyway. I'd rather have a 5+ save against EVERYTHING than an extra wound.

Very underwhelming aura, hope there is more to him than that. Even if our bolters were made plague weapons for free only 2 or so shots from a 10-man squad would actually get the -1ap on average.
The stratagem might have uses but I'm doubtfull, on the plus side it hits even characters on a 3+ which is rare for this kind of stuff I think, but every other unit in the game doesn't really care for D3 mortals were I play.

It hits infantry characters on a 2+ (The plus and minus cancel each other out)
Does mean you can never get D6 wounds on a character though.
I doubt I will ever use this, BUT if an opponent has some characters and squads bunched up in a forest then you could use it to break up a castle. Stop their rerolls etc, or they have to take the MWs.
If placed right they will have to scatter in different directions as they will be -2 movement. Perfect storm of Morty being close by and they can't even get away if they want lol

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

The LOV seems like infantry support, he's the guy who deep strikes near a couple cc squads of Plague Marines who are ready to clear some space on the table.

Don't know if I will buy another $30 character model, will probably convert one from parts. But I think he has a use in most armies.

You'd have a point if he buffed ALL Plague Weapons instead of just ranged ones, so as it stands he only helps the Blight Launchers and the lone guy throwing a blight grenade. That's not really a sound investment. Only real use I can conjur up is three drones with the heavy Blight Launchers but that's still just two shots getting the extra AP. I really don't get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also really sucks that I can use my Huron stand-in to pretty much represent him (and was potentially looking forward to that) and instead, for what's been revealed, he's just NOT good.

 Castozor wrote:
Very underwhelming aura, hope there is more to him than that. Even if our bolters were made plague weapons for free only 2 or so shots from a 10-man squad would actually get the -1ap on average.
The stratagem might have uses but I'm doubtfull, on the plus side it hits even characters on a 3+ which is rare for this kind of stuff I think, but every other unit in the game doesn't really care for D3 mortals were I play.

He almost has to do something else. CORE and ranged plague weapons is basically just grenades, blight launchers, and the various flamer-equivalents which is pretty naff, and then a 6" bubble limits even more. 1 in 6 of every d6 plague weapon attacks, which is maybe 2 models per unit (3 if you're also in grenade tossing range)... hurrah for DiceHammer.

 BleachHawk wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
I really hate losing FNP!
It sucks ass for everone not playing against marines. But it seems like everyone is, so I guess I just have a sucky meta now.

Same here. I try not to get my hopes up that the Surgeon will actually provide something against D1 weapons.

At first I was disappointed in losing it as well, but the more I thought about it the more it makes sense. With DG's high toughness and good saves, they will already be a lot harder to wound with most 1 damage weapons. Then once you consider things like the extra wounds and contagions of nurgle, losing the FNP starts to feel a little more fair. Our Terminators essentially have 6 wounds against any weapons that aren't D1, which feels pretty strong to me honestly. Some rebalancing seems important for DG, I haven't lost a single game since war of the spider dropped and they were starting to feel a little OP at times.

RobouteNurgleman wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
I really hate losing FNP!
It sucks ass for everone not playing against marines. But it seems like everyone is, so I guess I just have a sucky meta now.

Same here. I try not to get my hopes up that the Surgeon will actually provide something against D1 weapons.

At first I was disappointed in losing it as well, but the more I thought about it the more it makes sense. With DG's high toughness and good saves, they will already be a lot harder to wound with most 1 damage weapons. Then once you consider things like the extra wounds and contagions of nurgle, losing the FNP starts to feel a little more fair. Our Terminators essentially have 6 wounds against any weapons that aren't D1, which feels pretty strong to me honestly. Some rebalancing seems important for DG, I haven't lost a single game since war of the spider dropped and they were starting to feel a little OP at times.

Except Lasguns. Those hit ordinary Marines just as hard as Plague Marines.

 JNAProductions wrote:

RobouteNurgleman wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
I really hate losing FNP!
It sucks ass for everone not playing against marines. But it seems like everyone is, so I guess I just have a sucky meta now.

Same here. I try not to get my hopes up that the Surgeon will actually provide something against D1 weapons.

At first I was disappointed in losing it as well, but the more I thought about it the more it makes sense. With DG's high toughness and good saves, they will already be a lot harder to wound with most 1 damage weapons. Then once you consider things like the extra wounds and contagions of nurgle, losing the FNP starts to feel a little more fair. Our Terminators essentially have 6 wounds against any weapons that aren't D1, which feels pretty strong to me honestly. Some rebalancing seems important for DG, I haven't lost a single game since war of the spider dropped and they were starting to feel a little OP at times.

Except Lasguns. Those hit ordinary Marines just as hard as Plague Marines.

That's more the fault of the wounding table than anything.

The lord of virulence so far isn't too impressive. The aura buff plague weapon ap is nice. Since he's in terminator armor it may be worth deep striking him in with Blightlords to charge out of deepstrike or have him pop up next to a unit of Bloat drones. Though I will say between the Blight Bombardment strategem and the Harbinger's Relic and Shamble Rot warlord trait, I'm starting to see a theme of area denial bigger than just the -1 toughness. Well, maybe not complete area denial, but definitely making your opponents weigh their option instead of charging headlong to the point. Both the Bombardment and relic are once per game, but could be enough to stop a decent amount of primary scoring depending on the mission.

Not sure how either the relic and especially the bombardment will stop one from scoring primary. Scoring primaries is well worth d3 mortals on anyone unit, but yes it might make the enemy pay ffor doing so. Depends on what you face I suppose, I face CSM, Nid, Orks and SM with lots of infantry and none of those are too worried about a few mortal wounds on their units.

Tycho wrote:

My point is just yes, have different fluff reasons for the things. However when they do the same thing, just say it and have all the fluff you want for why it happens that way. Like when i started things that came down anywhere on the board and scattered was just deep strike, didn't matter why they did it, came from underground, teleported, fell from the sky, fell off an apple cart, etc. It was just deep strike and if I said " Hey these units are deep striking later " They all instantly knew what was happening with them, how they did it didn't matter outside of a fluff talk of why they could do that.

Surprised no one has pointed this out yet, but there's a very good reason they have different names now. It has almost nothing at all to do w/the fluff. In past editions, you would get a USR shared by, say 9 units. Then, at some point we would all realize that said rule made "unit X" OP. So GW would nerf the USR. But the nerf hit all 9 units. So now you have the OP unit properly toned down, 6 units that are now not as good as they were (for no good reason), and 2 units that were unintentionally made unplayable because of how bad the change made them. The idea with the new system was that GW could alter the specific "version" of the rule that was causing problems, without touching any other units. Brilliant on paper, but I don't think they actually ever made use of it in that manner in any meaningful way since they implemented it.

On the face of it, very underwhelming LoV article. Will still be picking one up but was really hoping he'd be for supporting my backfield PBC... which is looking unlikely now.

Wasn't a fan of the look of the model from the start, but on top of that, he doesn't seem all that great? I realize there's probably a lot more to him than the article suggests, but he's kind of underwhelming considering it's only the second DG codex ever, and the first in what? 4 years I think? Meh ....

That is true, but they have not really done that with any of these rules that are just like deep strike they all work exactly the same. So all they are currently adding is confusion and aren't doing anything to help keep balance. Especially not when everything can pretty much outflank these days, as well deep strike didn't make any unit op that I can remember, and we went through lots of good and bad. So yeah, I can see how the varying names lets you tweak the rules but they seemingly don't tweak the rules and rarely even tweak the points on units that have been poo for decades. Basic bit is USRs would be better than as this over the top bespoke jargon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

Think of him as a Rickroll. 'What is LoV? Baby don't hurt me..'

Damn you for making me laugh to this LOL.


Edit: Yeah the LoV is a good wait for later buy for me now. I still have hope it will be a good book over all but the LoV stuff is poor showing. Makes me wonder how they can make the game and make such a useless guy for it as our only new model. I'm more excited about possessed at this point, tell me how crazy is that ?

 Castozor wrote:
Not sure how either the relic and especially the bombardment will stop one from scoring primary. Scoring primaries is well worth d3 mortals on anyone unit, but yes it might make the enemy pay ffor doing so. Depends on what you face I suppose, I face CSM, Nid, Orks and SM with lots of infantry and none of those are too worried about a few mortal wounds on their units.

You have Blight Bombardment, the relic, and applied pressure from Plagueburst Crawler blasts and fast moving units like Bloat Drones or Blight Haulers. The unit on the point must also survive until the next command phase to score, giving you the round to shoot/assault. I also notice a shift back to MSU for some so d3 mortals could hurt, if its a MSU of marines its possible to do d6 mortlal wounds with Bombardment. The once per game mortal wounds from both might not be a complete area denial or even enough to wipe a unit, but all things considered makes taking/keeping a point pretty rough. I'm also not saying this is the best strategy so far, but I think the 'area denial with tough units' theme is what we should be playing towards.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

The LOV seems like infantry support, he's the guy who deep strikes near a couple cc squads of Plague Marines who are ready to clear some space on the table.

Don't know if I will buy another $30 character model, will probably convert one from parts. But I think he has a use in most armies.

You'd have a point if he buffed ALL Plague Weapons instead of just ranged ones, so as it stands he only helps the Blight Launchers and the lone guy throwing a blight grenade. That's not really a sound investment. Only real use I can conjur up is three drones with the heavy Blight Launchers but that's still just two shots getting the extra AP. I really don't get it.

D'oh! Thought it was all Plague Weapons.

Buffing a Plague Marine with a Flail would be something else.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

The LOV seems like infantry support, he's the guy who deep strikes near a couple cc squads of Plague Marines who are ready to clear some space on the table.

Don't know if I will buy another $30 character model, will probably convert one from parts. But I think he has a use in most armies.

You'd have a point if he buffed ALL Plague Weapons instead of just ranged ones, so as it stands he only helps the Blight Launchers and the lone guy throwing a blight grenade. That's not really a sound investment. Only real use I can conjur up is three drones with the heavy Blight Launchers but that's still just two shots getting the extra AP. I really don't get it.

D'oh! Thought it was all Plague Weapons.

Buffing a Plague Marine with a Flail would be something else.

Eh... Even if he did buff all Plague Weapons, you need 40 attacks (hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 3+, rerolling 1s for the wounds) to net a single extra failed save on average. At least against MEQ. I didn't run the math on GEQ or others.

We are looking at this all wrong, he's just supposed to walk around looking to get into the Roxbury for an amazing night at the club. To do that, he doesn't need good skills. What is LoV ? Baby don't hurt me, no more.

 Castozor wrote:
Not sure how either the relic and especially the bombardment will stop one from scoring primary. Scoring primaries is well worth d3 mortals on anyone unit, but yes it might make the enemy pay ffor doing so. Depends on what you face I suppose, I face CSM, Nid, Orks and SM with lots of infantry and none of those are too worried about a few mortal wounds on their units.

Agreed. I think it would have been much better as 1/2 CP than as 2/3.

So, someone help me here. Blight bombardment is once per game? or once per phase? or once per turn. Because it says you can only use this strategem once ... without any further clarification. If its once per game, its super limited.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, someone help me here. Blight bombardment is once per game? or once per phase? or once per turn. Because it says you can only use this strategem once ... without any further clarification. If its once per game, its super limited.

It says only use once, so once per game. Though really I'm not sure why you'd want to use it more than that anyway, it's a CP waste unless the rest of our stratagems are trash tier.
Edit: I don't want do double post so fast, so forgive me for quoting a post below me:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's still an increased damage output overall compared to...well, this.

Technically this is still a damage increase albeit an incredibly trash one pending unseen rules/buffs. Please GW give me another rule for this supposed "Daemon engine buffer".

 JNAProductions wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The acronym LOV will take some getting used to. Every time I read it, my brain parses 'Line of Sight.'

The LOV seems like infantry support, he's the guy who deep strikes near a couple cc squads of Plague Marines who are ready to clear some space on the table.

Don't know if I will buy another $30 character model, will probably convert one from parts. But I think he has a use in most armies.

You'd have a point if he buffed ALL Plague Weapons instead of just ranged ones, so as it stands he only helps the Blight Launchers and the lone guy throwing a blight grenade. That's not really a sound investment. Only real use I can conjur up is three drones with the heavy Blight Launchers but that's still just two shots getting the extra AP. I really don't get it.

D'oh! Thought it was all Plague Weapons.

Buffing a Plague Marine with a Flail would be something else.

Eh... Even if he did buff all Plague Weapons, you need 40 attacks (hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 3+, rerolling 1s for the wounds) to net a single extra failed save on average. At least against MEQ. I didn't run the math on GEQ or others.

It's still an increased damage output overall compared to...well, this.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, someone help me here. Blight bombardment is once per game? or once per phase? or once per turn. Because it says you can only use this strategem once ... without any further clarification. If its once per game, its super limited.

By RAW you can only ever use the strat once. Once you've used it you can never use it again for the rest of your life.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, someone help me here. Blight bombardment is once per game? or once per phase? or once per turn. Because it says you can only use this strategem once ... without any further clarification. If its once per game, its super limited.

By RAW you can only ever use the strat once. Once you've used it you can never use it again for the rest of your life.

So what you are saying is if I use it once I don't ever have to again for the rest of my life ? Sounds like I have to use it straight away in my first game with it, just get it out of my face forever then.

So after years of only playing Eldar, I'm going to start death guard.
Is the start playing box worth the money according to the veterans (of the long war) here?

I really don't understand the hate for blight bombardment. It's D3/D6 mortal wounds on all units in a 12" radius. That's a massive area, you could get 4 or 5 units in there.
But it's not really about the damage, it's disrupting your opponent, forcing some units to advance so they can't shoot etc

Abaddon303 wrote:
I really don't understand the hate for blight bombardment. It's D3/D6 mortal wounds on all units in a 12" radius. That's a massive area, you could get 4 or 5 units in there.
But it's not really about the damage, it's disrupting your opponent, forcing some units to advance so they can't shoot etc

Well, it's basically the Orbital Bombardment strategem from the Space Marine codex. How many times have you seen it played against you in four years since the first 8th ed codex?


That's why people are indifferent.

eldarian wrote:
So after years of only playing Eldar, I'm going to start death guard.
Is the start playing box worth the money according to the veterans (of the long war) here?

Not really. If you can find a Dark Imperium box or two sitting on shelves somewhere, you'll get much more value for your money.

 TonyH122 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I really don't understand the hate for blight bombardment. It's D3/D6 mortal wounds on all units in a 12" radius. That's a massive area, you could get 4 or 5 units in there.
But it's not really about the damage, it's disrupting your opponent, forcing some units to advance so they can't shoot etc

Well, it's basically the Orbital Bombardment strategem from the Space Marine codex. How many times have you seen it played against you in four years since the first 8th ed codex?


That's why people are indifferent.

I've used it in conjunction with Huron's personal bombardment and the command Rhino from FW. It's not good overall but it's fun.

 TonyH122 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I really don't understand the hate for blight bombardment. It's D3/D6 mortal wounds on all units in a 12" radius. That's a massive area, you could get 4 or 5 units in there.
But it's not really about the damage, it's disrupting your opponent, forcing some units to advance so they can't shoot etc

Well, it's basically the Orbital Bombardment strategem from the Space Marine codex. How many times have you seen it played against you in four years since the first 8th ed codex?


That's why people are indifferent.

The Orbital Bombardment stratagem from the Space Marine codex was updated for 9th. It used to be instantaneous, had a radius of D6" and only caused damage on a 4+ or 5+ if it was a character. I would absolutely agree that was trash and was never used. Too expensive for too little certainty or payoff.

Now it is a guaranteed full 6" radius and guaranteed hits on non character infantry and anything else on a 2+. Plus it's a 1/6 chance of D6 MWs.

That's a pretty massive increase in consistency and damage caused.

But like I said, it's not just about the damage its the disruption.

LOV might be good in combination with Deathshrouds. Their flamer gauntlets likely got a buff based on the point increase and are plague weapons.

LOV buffs them, and just happens to carry flamer weapons himself. Also, he wears ancient terminator armor. So, he can deep strike in together with the deathshrouds.

Another possible combination would be with Bloat drones. He makes those plague splitters better, and bloat drones are units that want to be up close anyway, so it works out. Maybe deep strike him in on second turn in the middle of a trio of bloat drones and then they all flame stuff. (sorry, this only works if Bloat drones are core)

He also can advance up behind Plague Burst Crawler/s with plague splitters that are moving up to midboard. Then he will give the long range mortars as well as those plague splitters +1 AP, and he himself will serve as a combat deterrant to people who want to get close and tag a PBC. (sorry, this only works if PBC are core). lol

The strategems relentless volley (make combi bolters rapid fire 3) and virulent rounds that turns bolters into plague weapons are probably in this new codex. So, the LOV can deep strike or just move up the board together with 10 combi bolter blightlords and they can now rapid fire 60 shots which are plague weapons and -1AP to boot.

Well, deathshrouds and blightlords at least should be core,,., right? lol

So basically you have to spend even more resources to try to make use of the single model, and quite frankly at that point it's overkill.

Even the article itself billed the LOV as a "support focused HQ". So he has to be used in combination with other units. The deathshroud combination doesn't require any additional CP.

The blightlord one though... yeah, that one needs at least virulent rounds...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
LOV might be good in combination with Deathshrouds. Their flamer gauntlets likely got a buff based on the point increase and are plague weapons.

They have gotten 12" range, but remained unchanged otherwise. Even for a full unit with the extra flamer on the champion (which is 5pts now), you are looking for 4 wounds with AP improved from 0 to -1.

Another possible combination would be with Bloat drones. He makes those plague splitters better, and bloat drones are units that want to be up close anyway, so it works out. Maybe deep strike him in on second turn in the middle of a trio of bloat drones and then they all flame stuff. (sorry, this only works if Bloat drones are core)

He also can advance up behind Plague Burst Crawler/s with plague splitters that are moving up to midboard. Then he will give the long range mortars as well as those plague splitters +1 AP, and he himself will serve as a combat deterrant to people who want to get close and tag a PBC. (sorry, this only works if PBC are core). lol

That is assuming that daemon engines will be CORE. Not impossible, but it would seem odd when regular marines got all their vehicles not have the keyword.

The strategems relentless volley (make combi bolters rapid fire 3) and virulent rounds that turns bolters into plague weapons are probably in this new codex. So, the LOV can deep strike or just move up the board together with 10 combi bolter blightlords and they can now rapid fire 60 shots which are plague weapons and -1AP to boot.

Virulent Rounds already makes sixes AP-4, so the LoV would not be needed.

RobouteNurgleman wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
I really hate losing FNP!
It sucks ass for everone not playing against marines. But it seems like everyone is, so I guess I just have a sucky meta now.

Same here. I try not to get my hopes up that the Surgeon will actually provide something against D1 weapons.

At first I was disappointed in losing it as well, but the more I thought about it the more it makes sense. With DG's high toughness and good saves, they will already be a lot harder to wound with most 1 damage weapons. Then once you consider things like the extra wounds and contagions of nurgle, losing the FNP starts to feel a little more fair. Our Terminators essentially have 6 wounds against any weapons that aren't D1, which feels pretty strong to me honestly. Some rebalancing seems important for DG, I haven't lost a single game since war of the spider dropped and they were starting to feel a little OP at times.

I agree that considering the new rules and stuff an FNP would have been too tood. But that doesn't mean I'd rather have 1 wound and 5+ FNP instead of "failing armour save = death. Mortal wounds = death."

I felt they were in a good place. They were not too strong. Just look at the tournament scene. Not very DG heavy.
However, I also havent lost a single game with DG since 8'th.


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eldarian wrote:
So after years of only playing Eldar, I'm going to start death guard.
Is the start playing box worth the money according to the veterans (of the long war) here?

IMHO no. But then again, I hate playing with poxwalkers. As stated above, get your hands on the DG half of the Dark Imperium box.
However, if you prefer to play horde with a lot of useless bodies, then the new box is great!

In my standard list (pre new codex) I run Deathshrouds, Bloatdrones, Blighthaulers, Marines (one CC unit), Tallyman, DP, a sorc or two of some kind, a Rhino and/or Mortarion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
LOV might be good in combination with Deathshrouds. Their flamer gauntlets likely got a buff based on the point increase and are plague weapons.

LOV buffs them, and just happens to carry flamer weapons himself. Also, he wears ancient terminator armor. So, he can deep strike in together with the deathshrouds.

Sadly, they are still S3 AP0 1D.

 Jidmah wrote:

The strategems relentless volley (make combi bolters rapid fire 3) and virulent rounds that turns bolters into plague weapons are probably in this new codex. So, the LOV can deep strike or just move up the board together with 10 combi bolter blightlords and they can now rapid fire 60 shots which are plague weapons and -1AP to boot.

Virulent Rounds already makes sixes AP-4, so the LoV would not be needed.

AP-5 is an improvement over AP-4, though the number of targets where this would make a difference is probably minimal.

 Jidmah wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
LOV might be good in combination with Deathshrouds. Their flamer gauntlets likely got a buff based on the point increase and are plague weapons.

They have gotten 12" range, but remained unchanged otherwise. Even for a full unit with the extra flamer on the champion (which is 5pts now), you are looking for 4 wounds with AP improved from 0 to -1.

Another possible combination would be with Bloat drones. He makes those plague splitters better, and bloat drones are units that want to be up close anyway, so it works out. Maybe deep strike him in on second turn in the middle of a trio of bloat drones and then they all flame stuff. (sorry, this only works if Bloat drones are core)

He also can advance up behind Plague Burst Crawler/s with plague splitters that are moving up to midboard. Then he will give the long range mortars as well as those plague splitters +1 AP, and he himself will serve as a combat deterrant to people who want to get close and tag a PBC. (sorry, this only works if PBC are core). lol

That is assuming that daemon engines will be CORE. Not impossible, but it would seem odd when regular marines got all their vehicles not have the keyword.

The strategems relentless volley (make combi bolters rapid fire 3) and virulent rounds that turns bolters into plague weapons are probably in this new codex. So, the LOV can deep strike or just move up the board together with 10 combi bolter blightlords and they can now rapid fire 60 shots which are plague weapons and -1AP to boot.

Virulent Rounds already makes sixes AP-4, so the LoV would not be needed.

Only sixes makes it AP-4, the rest of the wounds you would appreciate the AP -1. Unless you are shooting stuff that you only wound on sixes...

The aura also only improves the AP on sixes.

Death Guard on Crusade

Yayyyy More random upgrades that will actually be bad for you.

Cause only random stuff is fun in chaos

Doohicky wrote:
Yayyyy More random upgrades that will actually be bad for you.

Cause only random stuff is fun in chaos

it's also really fun in regards to Nurgle beein stagnation and cycle, not just lol randumb aka tzeentch.

Chaos boons? Really? Can't they figure out that chaos players hate the boon table?

I love it ;(
A LoC moving 7" or a plague surgeon turning into a daemon prince have been game winning for me.

 Jidmah wrote:
I love it ;(
A LoC moving 7" or a plague surgeon turning into a daemon prince have been game winning for me.

There's a difference between a working boontable with conditions and table before something even starts, so to speak that is in essence just MAYBEE something happens...

Courtesy of Reddit :

- 100% confirmed leaks:

Poxwalkers and cultsits can only be taken on a 1 to 1 relationship with other core infantry units. Bring two squads of plague marines? then the max poxwalker squads you can bring is 2.
Lords and Demon Princes can only be taken once in a detachment
Monstrous resilience is a rule that gives the unit -1D. Not clear exactly how this rule applies at the moment but looks like its a warlord trait.

- Not 100% confirmed but apparently from the same source:

Mortarion has a 5+++, shuts downs enemy aura buffs within 3" and classic arch contaminator within 6".
The plague companies give 1 relic, warlord trait and stratagem.

I'm fine with all those. Wonder if that will mean LoV and LoC can't be in same detachment though

If true about Morty that makes him a proper monster and theoretically worth taking, maybe even cheap.

So, Mortarion moves 12", is T8 with a 3+/4++/5+++ and -1 damage. Can shut down enemy auras within 3", can reduce enemy T by 1 within 9" and can take another contagion ability, like halving movement within 9". He's pricey at 490, but man he's starting to sound like an auto-include.

Wellp, instead of addressing the issue, GW once again used the bandaid and hammer method.

Hold on... that Diseased minions rule.

Does that not mean that the combat patrol box is not a legal formation?
Unless Typhus allows that rule to be broken.

 Jidmah wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
LOV might be good in combination with Deathshrouds. Their flamer gauntlets likely got a buff based on the point increase and are plague weapons.

They have gotten 12" range, but remained unchanged otherwise. Even for a full unit with the extra flamer on the champion (which is 5pts now), you are looking for 4 wounds with AP improved from 0 to -1.

Another possible combination would be with Bloat drones. He makes those plague splitters better, and bloat drones are units that want to be up close anyway, so it works out. Maybe deep strike him in on second turn in the middle of a trio of bloat drones and then they all flame stuff. (sorry, this only works if Bloat drones are core)

He also can advance up behind Plague Burst Crawler/s with plague splitters that are moving up to midboard. Then he will give the long range mortars as well as those plague splitters +1 AP, and he himself will serve as a combat deterrant to people who want to get close and tag a PBC. (sorry, this only works if PBC are core). lol

That is assuming that daemon engines will be CORE. Not impossible, but it would seem odd when regular marines got all their vehicles not have the keyword.

The strategems relentless volley (make combi bolters rapid fire 3) and virulent rounds that turns bolters into plague weapons are probably in this new codex. So, the LOV can deep strike or just move up the board together with 10 combi bolter blightlords and they can now rapid fire 60 shots which are plague weapons and -1AP to boot.

Virulent Rounds already makes sixes AP-4, so the LoV would not be needed.

Wouldn't be surprised if DG specific Daemon Engines received CORE but the Defiler and other vehicles would not. I mean, it would be slightly odd if a supposed artillery specialist like the LoV wouldn't be able to buff PBCs... but on the other hand, it wouldn't be the first thing that doesn't make sense at all.

Games Workshop wrote:Ever a fan of the number three, these gifts granted by Nurgle are rolled on a D33...

Surely GW, you mean the number 7, right?

Pandabeer wrote:


Wouldn't be surprised if DG specific Daemon Engines received CORE but the Defiler and other vehicles would not. I mean, it would be slightly odd if a supposed artillery specialist like the LoV wouldn't be able to buff PBCs... but on the other hand, it wouldn't be the first thing that doesn't make sense at all.

I'm with you in the hope. I don't think it is likely unfortunately, but one thing gives me a sliver of hope that they will get core that's the diseased minions rule above.
It specifies core bubotic astartes infantry. I have to think the infantry is there for a reason. Unless it's just Helbrutes it's to distinguish from

Doohicky wrote:
Hold on... that Diseased minions rule.

Does that not mean that the combat patrol box is not a legal formation?
Unless Typhus allows that rule to be broken.

1 squad of PM and one squad of 30 poxwalkers? ( no idea if legal)

Hmmm, if true, I am starting to think Morty might be getting dusted down. He's beginning to sound like a beast.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:Ever a fan of the number three, these gifts granted by Nurgle are rolled on a D33...

Surely GW, you mean the number 7, right?

Both 3 and 7 are fine. 3 is the symbol of the fly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lare2 wrote:
Hmmm, if true, I am starting to think Morty might be getting dusted down. He's beginning to sound like a beast.

Well, it now takes two maxed out eradicator squads to kill him

Not Online!!! wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
Hold on... that Diseased minions rule.

Does that not mean that the combat patrol box is not a legal formation?
Unless Typhus allows that rule to be broken.

1 squad of PM and one squad of 30 poxwalkers? ( no idea if legal)

Based on the 2021 points document, poxwalkers cap at 20. So as it stands, it isn't legal.
GW gonna GW...

Not entirely happy with the 'But thou must' rules for army building. Though I suppose it isn't as bad as inflating the points of cheap units...

What has monstrous resilience? I haven’t seen anything with that rule yet. Does it stack with disgustingly Resilient?? It would seem odd if it didn’t.

broxus wrote:
What has monstrous resilience? I haven’t seen anything with that rule yet. Does it stack with disgustingly Resilient?? It would seem odd if it didn’t.

Reddit seems to be torn between a warlord trait or an ability for helbrutes. No one knows for sure.

As worded, it stacks.

Ya my guess would be the mirror trait for the loyalist dreads, but in this case slightly better because it can stack.

Buffs to DG Chaos Lord made them more useful, cap on per detachment makes it less viable to park a few next to your PBCs for artillery with rerolls. Curious to see what buffs the LOV actually brings and if he'll be a better artillery commander. He'll certainly be more expensive.

So many uncertainties about the codex it's gonna be interesting when reviews go up tomorrow.

If Monstrous Resilience is the Helbrute equivalent to Duty Eternal that will be odd. The Chaos dreads in the FW book already have Duty Eternal called Relentless Hatred so not sure it needs yet another name for DG.

I just find it unlikely that Helbrutes would get both DR and the equivalent of Duty Eternal, but then it's odd that loyalist Dreads get both -1 damage and their chapter tactics, doctrines etc.

Something that could be interesting is if we see Helbrutes with a <dreadnought> keyword to cut down the confusion between the unit name and keyword and explain why the new FW book neglected it again like in 8th.

If that is the case, and DR works on all infantry, characters, dreadnoughts then that will automatically include the FW dreads. That seems horrifically strong but then if they don't I can't see them ever being worth taking.

As for daemon engines getting core. It's not completely impossible to imagine that the smaller DEs get core but the PBC doesn't. There's precedent for that with Contemptors having core and Leviathans not.

Voss wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
Hold on... that Diseased minions rule.

Does that not mean that the combat patrol box is not a legal formation?
Unless Typhus allows that rule to be broken.

1 squad of PM and one squad of 30 poxwalkers? ( no idea if legal)

Based on the 2021 points document, poxwalkers cap at 20. So as it stands, it isn't legal.
GW gonna GW...

Not entirely happy with the 'But thou must' rules for army building. Though I suppose it isn't as bad as inflating the points of cheap units...

GW gonna be GW indeed.
FFS i thought they' d have allready worked in the fething editor they recently hired.

Also these "artificial limits" are more often then not an admitance of defeat in understanding of the issues at hand in correlation of the rules environment provided.



_____________


otoh these patoghens for the heretic astartes and champions / HQ is an interesting concept.
I do hope they tested them accordingly but as a concept it's unique and propper.
Shame on the randumb for crusades though.

Man, life for a Death Guard cultist must suck.
You either catch the plague and become a Poxwalker, or you sit on a shelf because hot damn GW doesn't want anyone to use you.

That multiple elites I would imagine will mean bioligous, tallyman, plague surgeon, foul blightspawn will all be included.

Love leaks - bring on more!

 Sasori wrote:

Where did these leaks come from??

At least this makes Mortarion have a bit of a cost.

Where are you finding these photos?

broxus wrote:
Where are you finding these photos?

Various Discords.

Thanks a lot for posting Sasori.

Morarion's rules make him odd to play. Not only does he have to be your warlord, you cannot field battalions any more because you can only have one lord and not daemon princes, plague casters or sorcerers.

If the Biologus is Core the detachment would be legal, right? 1 PM unit, 1 Biologus would allow for two poxwalker units.

All of this is from 4chan and mostly not confirmed:

A Virion is just a virus really
It lets you take a combination of three:
Tallyman, Plague Surgeon, Blightbringer, Blightspawn and Putrifier

Poxwalkers
m4", ws4+, bs-, s3, t4, w1, a2, ld4, sv7+
Special rules:
+1 to hit in units of 10x or more.
Weapons have plague weapon rule.
Immune to morale.

Typhus already been leaked, but his buff to Poxwalkers is +1 WS, +1 S, within 6".

No core on MBH. And sorry, Helbrutes also core.
Lord of contagion does not have a re-roll 1 aura.

Disgustingly Resiliant, Revoltingly Resiliant and Monstrously Resiliant all give -1 damage and all can stack.

FNP not that I am seeing, but buffed invuns are still a thing like from last PA book.
Plague sprayers are also now a set strength (5) and re roll 1s to wound. Buffed range too.

Mortarion gets 3 warlord traits and can pick a fourth.
One of those traits is "This model cannot be wounded on better than a 4+"

Foul Blightspawns hasn't really changed, Plague Surgeon has changed a lot, I will try get a picture as its a mouthfull. Biologus Putrifier now has his own strat linked to him allowing a unit to throw all its blight grenades at once

Lord of Virulance has the exact same statline as lord of Contagion. Difference is he has the already previewed plague spewer, a power fist with plague weapon rule, and the special rules already previewed. Nothing more.

Cataphractii still a 4++.

Hateful assault still exists.

I love the way it says if battle forged the force gains these 3 abilities. 2 of which are actually limitations haha

I really hope not all Lords are Lords of Destruction otherwise we are VERY limited on HQ choices.

We have Chaos Lord, Terminator Chaos Lord, LoC, LoV
Sorcerer, Terminator Sorcerer, Malignant Plaguecaster
Daemon Prince

I think that's them all??

Combinging Morty's rule of No psyker units, it means they can't all have that rule otherwise anything above a patrol detatchment is impossible to fill HQ slots.

If we have Morty, only HQs allowed are the various Chaos Lords.

Edit: Ninja'd by Jidmah there!

Doohicky wrote:
I love the way it says if battle forged the force gains these 3 abilities. 2 of which are actually limitations haha

I really hope not all Lords are Lords of Destruction otherwise we are VERY limited on HQ choices.

We have Chaos Lord, Terminator Chaos Lord, LoC, LoV
Sorcerer, Terminator Sorcerer, Malignant Plaguecaster
Daemon Prince

I think that's them all??

Combinging Morty's rule of No psyker units, it means they can't all have that rule otherwise anything above a patrol detatchment is impossible to fill HQ slots.

If we have Morty, only HQs allowed are the various Chaos Lords.

Edit: Ninja'd by Jidmah there!

You would have to take chaos lord and a LoC to make the battalion

broxus wrote:


Cataphractii still a 4++.

Hateful assault still exists.

If true then the one time in my life I was optimistic I have been vindicated! Maybe I should try this positivity stuff more often!

broxus wrote:

All of this is from 4chan and mostly not confirmed:

A Virion is just a virus really
It lets you take a combination of three:
Tallyman, Plague Surgeon, Blightbringer, Blightspawn and Putrifier

Poxwalkers
m4", ws4+, bs-, s3, t4, w1, a2, ld4, sv7+
Special rules:
+1 to hit in units of 10x or more.
Weapons have plague weapon rule.
Immune to morale.

Typhus already been leaked, but his buff to Poxwalkers is +1 WS, +1 S, within 6".

No core on MBH. And sorry, Helbrutes also core.
Lord of contagion does not have a re-roll 1 aura.

Disgustingly Resiliant, Revoltingly Resiliant and Monstrously Resiliant all give -1 damage and all can stack.

FNP not that I am seeing, but buffed invuns are still a thing like from last PA book.
Plague sprayers are also now a set strength (5) and re roll 1s to wound. Buffed range too.

Mortarion gets 3 warlord traits and can pick a fourth.
One of those traits is "This model cannot be wounded on better than a 4+"

Foul Blightspawns hasn't really changed, Plague Surgeon has changed a lot, I will try get a picture as its a mouthfull. Biologus Putrifier now has his own strat linked to him allowing a unit to throw all its blight grenades at once

Lord of Virulance has the exact same statline as lord of Contagion. Difference is he has the already previewed plague spewer, a power fist with plague weapon rule, and the special rules already previewed. Nothing more.

Cataphractii still a 4++.

Hateful assault still exists.

Glad were finally putting that to bed.

PRetty sure that 4chan is bunk. The stuff about morty earlier in the thread came from the source that leaked the images.

EDIT: I even posted the deatchment rules that don't show hateful assault.

Wait, so 11 poxies hitting on 2s with typhus near. Nah...

According to that a large squad of poxwalkesr with typhus nearby hits on 2+!

 Sasori wrote:
PRetty sure that 4chan is bunk. The stuff about morty earlier in the thread came from the source that leaked the images.

EDIT: I even posted the deatchment rules that don't show hateful assault.

The detachment rules also don't show malicious volleys, right?

Wow... no psychers if you run Morty. I mean, I love Lords and all but not being able to run a Prince is a hefty cost

So, no malicious volley, hateful assault and DTTFE?

That last list is pretty garbage. I wouldn't trust much of that.

Yea meaning it is likely hateful Assault is still around. Maybe on the data sheets of core units.

They previewed malicious volleys. They showed the rule.

There is a missing page and dollars to donuts its "Bubonic Astartes gain ..."

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
They previewed malicious volleys. They showed the rule.

There is a missing page and dollars to donuts its "Bubonic Astartes gain ..."

You are likely right!

Notice that 4chan leak repeats a bunch of stuff off warhammer community articles we have seen weeks ago, sprinkles in some of the confirmed leaked images and then focuses on unconfirmed crap that people were concerned about.

Oh look, it says hateful assault, cataphractii and grenading all still exist!

I'd wait for more pics before I believed any of that.

Especially pox walkers that hit on 2's and wound marines on 4's rerolling.

 lare2 wrote:
Wow... no psychers if you run Morty. I mean, I love Lords and all but not being able to run a Prince is a hefty cost

Word is going around that that rule is fake. Guess we'll see.

That 4chan list is clearly a poor troll.

The only full statline is the Poxwalkers, the Virion rule is self-evident, and the rest is unsubstantiated tripe that frequently contradicts what we already know.

Nah.

If Morty is as busted as all the data is adding up to, I actually hope thats true. He really doesn't need to be warp timed into the enemy lines turn 1.

Anyone else think explosive outbreak on a deathshroud champ or a LoC assuming they get same sweeping blow could be an idea?
Would be like getting DTTFE again, albeit on only a single model.

Now it is a guaranteed full 6" radius and guaranteed hits on non character infantry and anything else on a 2+. Plus it's a 1/6 chance of D6 MWs.

That's a pretty massive increase in consistency and damage caused.

But like I said, it's not just about the damage its the disruption.

The new marine one is straight up awful. The new DG one is a little better but with both the new Marine one and the new DG one - the damage output just isn't high enough to make any sense. I can't think of too many units that are going to be scared enough of it to try to move out of the way. Especially not with so many 2+w models hitting the table now. I can't think of a single unit in any of my armies that I wouldn't happily just sit there and take the damage from. Yeah, rolling a 6 could hurt some units, but even then, I'll take that tradeoff given how much CP it costs. It feels like they should all just be removed.

I used to use the marine one for no other reason than because it was fun, but in 9th? Having to wait a full turn? Nah. Will likely be the same with the DG one even though it's a little better. It's just not worth the price imo.

Why do I feel like there are too many situational rules being thrown together. Its like you have to remember:

in situation A, this rule applies. in situation B, another rule applies, in situation C, yet another rule applies.

There are warlord auras, contagions of nurgle, disgustingly resilient, remorseless, deathly pathogens, Inexorable advance, malicious volleys.

And there is also Core, non-core, and we haven't considered whether stuff like DTTFE and hateful assault will be in or not. Its like there are now so many rules applying in different situations.

We pay for all these in terms of the points, but I will bet a casual player is going to forget half of them because he plays only once a month...

Because gamers all complain constantly if the army they play doesn't gain another shiny thing every release.

A few editions of that crap and you get to enjoy these levels of bloat.

Psychic awakening accelerated it and made it arrive even faster too.

It's kind of hilarious how many rules a bog standard unit of plague marines have now.

It's narrative though, because now YOU get to be the tallyman!

 Sasori wrote:


At least this makes Mortarion have a bit of a cost.

The different font for the heading (compared to the other leaked page), the lack of capitalisation on Supreme Command Detachment, and the typo ("in you army") make me think this one may be a fake.

 Dysartes wrote:

Spoiler:

 Sasori wrote:


At least this makes Mortarion have a bit of a cost.

The different font for the heading (compared to the other leaked page), the lack of capitalisation on Supreme Command Detachment, and the typo ("in you army") make me think this one may be a fake.

I am now disgusted with myself for missing all those things

Guys, the first rule of the internet is never believe anything that originated from 4chan, especially if it contradicts known information (pox walkers)

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Why do I feel like there are too many situational rules being thrown together. Its like you have to remember:

in situation A, this rule applies. in situation B, another rule applies, in situation C, yet another rule applies.

There are warlord auras, contagions of nurgle, disgustingly resilient, remorseless, deathly pathogens, Inexorable advance, malicious volleys.

And there is also Core, non-core, and we haven't considered whether stuff like DTTFE and hateful assault will be in or not. Its like there are now so many rules applying in different situations.

We pay for all these in terms of the points, but I will bet a casual player is going to forget half of them because he plays only once a month...

A pile of small, interlocking situational rules is pretty much the army style. That's the reason why I started playing them in the first place

See the typo makes it look real to me lol. Its the fact that it would stop people buying models that makes me think its fake

Is anyone else a little surprised to see that the Tallyman didn't become a PRIEST? I would have thought our Chaplain equivalent would get his own d3 table, or something.

 MinMax wrote:
Is anyone else a little surprised to see that the Tallyman didn't become a PRIEST? I would have thought our Chaplain equivalent would get his own d3 table, or something.

Do we know he didn't?

My apologies if stuff has been posted for him. (For the record I assumed he hadn't)

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


At least this makes Mortarion have a bit of a cost.

The different font for the heading (compared to the other leaked page), the lack of capitalisation on Supreme Command Detachment, and the typo ("in you army") make me think this one may be a fake.

Could very well be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A pile of small, interlocking situational rules is pretty much the army style. That's the reason why I started playing them in the first place

To a point. I just hope it doesn't all come together like Command Protocols - ie - an excessive amount of conditions that must be met, in order to gain semi-random buffs that are not generally worth the trouble.

Compilation of leaks:

https://imgur.com/a/g0rbLso?fbclid=IwAR0VW1GXX_5tZURGGV9SGKb3-JkiRBj46YdSNjjDfm8fy3Y8qBO3SH_rT64

The images I posted above put the nail in the coffin for the 4chan leak.

Those 4chan leaks confirmed fake now, can see mention of the Lord of Contagion re-rolling 1s, etc

This is actually looking pretty good.

Man if that strat to turn melee weapons into flails is legit I want to use it on my Deathshroud at least once just to see the looks on my friends' faces.

Also no hateful assault and Mortarion gets the 5+++

Eternal Hatred seems to be replacement for VotLW. Double the CP and only on Bubonic infantry.

I see Cloud of flies more expensive too.
Not a surprise, any strats that were auto take were bound to go up

Doohicky wrote:
Eternal Hatred seems to be replacement for VotLW. Double the CP and only on Bubonic infantry.

I see Cloud of flies more expensive too.
Not a surprise, any strats that were auto take were bound to go up

And they gave us a ton more CP to start with. Remember when we would start with like 5??

Where are people seeing the LoC gives a reroll 1 aura.

This should be only about 1/2 our strategems.

The Eternal Hatred cost and restrictions probably make sense, but still sting a bit when compared to the Salamanders Betterans of the Long War strat.

Im not sure overwhelmed. I like that the army strats and rules really lean into the close range focus though. Things like the arch contaminator change are well thought out. No more AC lord sitting next to PBCs.

Diseased effluents looks brilliant. Risk vs reward, but I like that

Rotten Constitution for Morty as his 4th should help keep him alive.

 lare2 wrote:
Rotten Constitution for Morty as his 4th should help keep him alive.

He cannot take that one. Check his WarCom datasheet.

I thought the same thing, but alas.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
Rotten Constitution for Morty as his 4th should help keep him alive.

He cannot take that one. Check his WarCom datasheet.

I thought the same thing, but alas.

That makes me cry a little Thanks for pointing it out though.

As far as I can see we are just missing the wargear strats (And maybe some strategic ploys)

Some DG expert enlighten me on it all, but to me they look insanely powerful.

I know it is not really about DG, but seeing VotlW renamed "Eternal Hatred" makes me hopeful that in the future CSM Codex, VotlW/Eternal Hatred will also be accessible to Renegades Chapters.

Because yes, as insane as it might be, some people do enjoy the renegades (such as me ).

Deathguard are looking insane right now.

So much for a Poxwalker focused army.

I think its less that any particular stratagem is crazy OP and more like DG have an enormous toolkit to pull from now.

I love the thought of Heroically Intervening with a Fleshmower drone.

Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Spoletta wrote:
Some DG expert enlighten me on it all, but to me they look insanely powerful.

Nah, I agree. Essentially the combos were all curbed, but in return everything was buffed up to the level of our good units.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Oh cool, you've seen all of Typhus' special rules then?

I strongly suspect Poxwalkers are either going up to 30 strong or having Typhus as your Warlord will allow you to ignore the followers rule.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Oh cool, you've seen all of Typhus' special rules then?

I strongly suspect Poxwalkers are either going up to 30 strong or having Typhus as your Warlord will allow you to ignore the followers rule.

I don't think you're correct. The Plague Marine tax is real, and it is not going away. Also, Poxwalkers do not have "Core" as a keyword.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Oh cool, you've seen all of Typhus' special rules then?

I strongly suspect Poxwalkers are either going up to 30 strong or having Typhus as your Warlord will allow you to ignore the followers rule.

I don't think you're correct. The Plague Marine tax is real, and it is not going away. Also, Poxwalkers do not have "Core" as a keyword.

Typhus' entire schtick is hordes of Zombies. The "tax" (lol, almost as if they want DG armies to be comprised of DG...) is there for standard armies but there are numerous examples throughout GW's history of named characters having a modified army of some sort and special rules that would adjust the FOC.

Strats looking good but i´m wondering what the rules for our elites will be. Most interested in changes (if any) to flamer guy and the surgeon.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Oh cool, you've seen all of Typhus' special rules then?

I strongly suspect Poxwalkers are either going up to 30 strong or having Typhus as your Warlord will allow you to ignore the followers rule.

I don't think you're correct. The Plague Marine tax is real, and it is not going away. Also, Poxwalkers do not have "Core" as a keyword.

Typhus' entire schtick is hordes of Zombies. The "tax" (lol, almost as if they want DG armies to be comprised of DG...) is there for standard armies but there are numerous examples throughout GW's history of named characters having a modified army of some sort and special rules that would adjust the FOC.

And there are numerous instances where a character's (or army's) "shtick" is one thing, and the rules do not reflect it in the slightest. Wanting something won't make it real.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Oh cool, you've seen all of Typhus' special rules then?

I strongly suspect Poxwalkers are either going up to 30 strong or having Typhus as your Warlord will allow you to ignore the followers rule.

MAYBE someone didn't want to take Typhus.

 puma713 wrote:
I love the thought of Heroically Intervening with a Fleshmower drone.

This was the first thing that crossed my mind as well. With a 6" free move that thing has a 7" ring around it where you really don't want to be. Makes flying up mid table turn 1 to control the center that much more threatening. Either hold back and get charged turn 2 or move up and get tagged by at least one of them turn 1.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Oh cool, you've seen all of Typhus' special rules then?

I strongly suspect Poxwalkers are either going up to 30 strong or having Typhus as your Warlord will allow you to ignore the followers rule.

This would make sense, especially considering the patrol box

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Oh cool, you've seen all of Typhus' special rules then?

I strongly suspect Poxwalkers are either going up to 30 strong or having Typhus as your Warlord will allow you to ignore the followers rule.

MAYBE someone didn't want to take Typhus.

Oh, no, it's totally cool that my army themed around a hoard of nobodies being herded into a meatgrinder also includes like the second most important individual in the Legion in every game...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
I love the thought of Heroically Intervening with a Fleshmower drone.

This was the first thing that crossed my mind as well. With a 6" free move that thing has a 7" ring around it where you really don't want to be. Makes flying up mid table turn 1 to control the center that much more threatening. Either hold back and get charged turn 2 or move up and get tagged by at least one of them turn 1.

And, iirc (don't have my book with me at work ), you don't have to have LOS to HI, so he can be hidden in a building somewhere near the middle, ready to HI.

You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

 puma713 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
I love the thought of Heroically Intervening with a Fleshmower drone.

This was the first thing that crossed my mind as well. With a 6" free move that thing has a 7" ring around it where you really don't want to be. Makes flying up mid table turn 1 to control the center that much more threatening. Either hold back and get charged turn 2 or move up and get tagged by at least one of them turn 1.

And, iirc (don't have my book with me at work ), you don't have to have LOS to HI, so he can be hidden in a building somewhere near the middle, ready to HI.

You also don't have to succeed in making it to within engagement range. Meaning, even if terrain prevents you from engaging you still get to move which can help get it closer or in denial range.

I always liked the fleshmower the most, now it's looking really strong. Not sure I'd go 3 mowers, but at least 1 seems really strong for mid table.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

Eh, it happens. I ran 12 Windriders as troop choices in 7E, and when the 8E CWE Codex dropped, I had no troops at all. It sucked, but I adapted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

That entire principle melts when folks start playing none marine armies.

My DE or especially GSC for example basically have generic characters with all the limitations on rules and gear of a named character lol.

It sucks to have armies invalidated, absolutely. But surely everyone saw that for the past 3 years GW have been trying to push all chaos away from being horde?

As a whole, this restriction seems to be a buff (Not for you but in general).

Cultists and poxwalkers had been artificially increased in price to try and discourage them. Now they seem to be well priced and I feel it is because of this restriction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

Eh I'm personally not against rules enforcing fluff but the rule would probably be better if it was up to 2 of poxwalkers and/or cultist mix as you want rather than this. What lists want to actually run all 3 of those options simultaneously?

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

Eh, it happens. I ran 12 Windriders as troop choices in 7E, and when the 8E CWE Codex dropped, I had no troops at all. It sucked, but I adapted.

And that was also unacceptable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

Eh, it happens. I ran 12 Windriders as troop choices in 7E, and when the 8E CWE Codex dropped, I had no troops at all. It sucked, but I adapted.

And that was also unacceptable.

So no units should ever be sunset? Should the fundamental rules for an army be EXCLUSIVELY based on its previous iterations?

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

Eh, it happens. I ran 12 Windriders as troop choices in 7E, and when the 8E CWE Codex dropped, I had no troops at all. It sucked, but I adapted.

And that was also unacceptable.

So no units should ever be sunset? Should the fundamental rules for an army be EXCLUSIVELY based on its previous iterations?

There's a precedent of GW swinging the nerfhammer too many times at a unit, have you the memory of a goldfish? Windriders have always been a Troop for Eldar, and to remove them from that slot AND nerf stats was ridiculous.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

Eh, it happens. I ran 12 Windriders as troop choices in 7E, and when the 8E CWE Codex dropped, I had no troops at all. It sucked, but I adapted.

And that was also unacceptable.

So no units should ever be sunset? Should the fundamental rules for an army be EXCLUSIVELY based on its previous iterations?

There's a precedent of GW swinging the nerfhammer too many times at a unit, have you the memory of a goldfish? Windriders have always been a Troop for Eldar, and to remove them from that slot AND nerf stats was ridiculous.

Or I realize that the game can change. Just because a unit existed in a specific slot doesn't mean it cannot be moved.

Can we just ignore slayers' argument? He has repeatedly proven to not know the first thing about Death Guard.

Currently we are arguing the fringe case of someone trying to run a pox walker horde without Typhus or a single Death Guard Infantry unit now losing the ability to field his army.

Or, in other words, someone who was intentionally losing every game they play due to horrible list building is now forced to either play better units or ask his opponent for permission.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
You can always pretend he's just a regular Necromantic DG Lord but with Typhus' rules. That's what I would do anyway since I dislike Typhus' lore too much.

I'd probably just use a LoC with Typhus' rules. It's more the principle of the matter that people were, in fact, running zombie hordes as an army. They are completely invalidated.

Eh, it happens. I ran 12 Windriders as troop choices in 7E, and when the 8E CWE Codex dropped, I had no troops at all. It sucked, but I adapted.

And that was also unacceptable.

So no units should ever be sunset? Should the fundamental rules for an army be EXCLUSIVELY based on its previous iterations?

There's a precedent of GW swinging the nerfhammer too many times at a unit, have you the memory of a goldfish? Windriders have always been a Troop for Eldar, and to remove them from that slot AND nerf stats was ridiculous.

That's not even true. Windriders were definitely not previously troops until 6th ed and their saves were also not always a 3+

Let's get back to the Deathguard discussion shall we?

Overall, it feels like there is a good chance that Deathguard are going to be a significant ripple in the meta. The current meta is all about Anti-Marine weapons, and DG really put a wrinkle on that with the -1 Damage. I am very curious to see how this evolves.

I'm very curious to see how they will fare against Harlequins. The Death Guard has access to a good amount of MW and Harlequins are relying heavily on their invulnerable save to work.

 Sasori wrote:
Let's get back to the Deathguard discussion shall we?

Overall, it feels like there is a good chance that Deathguard are going to be a significant ripple in the meta. The current meta is all about Anti-Marine weapons, and DG really put a wrinkle on that with the -1 Damage. I am very curious to see how this evolves.

I agree with this, I mainly play AdMech and this makes robots even more tempting (I have 7 but rarely run them). High volume of fire that's 1d will be great for both marines and DG. I wonder what other units will show up to provide that for other armies.

I have a lazy DG side project and want to get a few termies and Morty to finish it off, this codex looks REALLY fluffy which will encourage me to pla it much more.

Peeps saying poxy armies are invalidated seems hyperbolic--a heavy poxy approach is still at least possible. It does come with a tax now and that sucks, but I can see why GW made the choice they did. Editions change, rules change, things get added and removed. As a player who likes specialized/skew lists I have seen several builds be invalidated in my time. Have to adapt and move on, it is the way of things just as much as it is IRL.

In other news, oooo those stratagems look juicy! And very much digging the crusade rules, random bonuses with some means to affect the outcome I find to be ideal. With free picking it just becomes a matter of optimized choices for whatever speciality one is going for, complete random can be fun but also feels like control and customization is being taken away as much as given. There is a place for random, like chaos boons, so long as the benefits are weighed appropriately against the cost (I have seen previous renditions on both sides of that, we'll see about these). And I always see a small chance of spawndom as very fun and thematic for narrative play, I'm glad for it to get included with Nurgle when it is normally restricted to undivided and Tzeentch. The other gods are still -chaos- gods after all!

Well the really good news here is that apparently Chaos Boon is now for Crusade play so it stops hogging half a page of what could have otherwise been useful stratagems.

Mostly good stuff, I don't like the change with needing plague marines and the like to take pox walkers. I see why they are doing this as the marines are good so they aren't exactly a bad pick cost wise and GW demand you have some elite guys there.

I don't really mind but I am sorry for all those who only wanted to field zombies.It kinda sucks GW does that, it's like they do like to punish you for building a specific list. The only safety comes in having all the possible choices in moderate amounts.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Welp. My chod hoard army is illegal now. Thanks GeeDubs.

Since it's a DG detachment ability that adds the restriction, one way to get around it is to include a non-Death Guard model in your detachment and run your army using the Nurgle keyword.
Just a single unit, and bam! You do miss out on Inexorable Advance (and the stratagems unless you take a seperate DG detachment alongside), but if you're running mass pox-walkers you probably only have a few units that would benefit from it in the first place.

TBH GW did the same with Loyalist marines nuking Scouts from orbit. GW clearly wants their marine factions to USE marines.

Yeah but scouts are still Marines just not in power armor. That scout nuke felt more like they didn't want people taking cheaper options and loading up on more exciting choices.

Which, is pretty much what this is as well. However if I had to deal with you need a unit of plagues to take a unit of zombies I'd say that's a better solution than just sending them into a whole new slot.

So I guess DG got off better than say a marine player who ran a full 10th company with scouts all over, and yes I have a friend who had such a thing and he was pretty pissed off, for correct reasons.

Eh I support the push for fluffy armies personally. All zombies might have been fun but it was never true DG, since DG proper is all about PM and/or Termies. I personally don't mind this push for more fluffy armies, it's better than their rule forcing us to paint minis.

 Galas wrote:
TBH GW did the same with Loyalist marines nuking Scouts from orbit. GW clearly wants their marine factions to USE marines.

Then why not just make the base unit good?

Yeah I suppose so but they also take two steps forward and one back with fluff on armies. Like keeping a DG army mostly Plagues is great but not having demons more openly in use outside some plague engines doesn't feel as fluffy, and as they did this with pox walkers they could have easily done that with nurgle demons in the codex as well, further making little sense why they didn't just include them in the army as units you could use just with limitations.

The poxwalkers set the precedent for that kind of limitation now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH GW did the same with Loyalist marines nuking Scouts from orbit. GW clearly wants their marine factions to USE marines.

Then why not just make the base unit good?

It looks like both poxwalkers and plague marines will be good units with their own uses. So clearly it is not about that.

It appears that Adrian and Brian from Tabletop Titans got their copy of Codex: Deathguard early.

They are doing a batrep at their usual Saturday time of 2PM Central Time here in the US. It's a matchup between DG and Harlies.

Fast and fragile vs slow and hearty. I doubt they will go over much of the codex but it'll be interesting none-the-less to see the new DG in action.

Though I'm sure they aren't the only YT's to get theirs. I'd expect more discussions over the next few days.

The strategems aren't exactly anything too unexpected so far. I'm a little disappointed some have gone up in CP cost, but not unexpected. I've been checking dakka practically every 5 minutes hoping to see more leaks lol

 l0k1 wrote:
The strategems aren't exactly anything too unexpected so far. I'm a little disappointed some have gone up in CP cost, but not unexpected. I've been checking dakka practically every 5 minutes hoping to see more leaks lol

I know they just stopped randomly. I was hoping to see the relics and data sheets. We should also have another page or two of Strategems also.

Likely only one page is missing, but the wargear stratagems which are last in other codexes are haven’t been revealed.

Mass infantry deathguard is looking very interesting to me right now honestly. Imagine like 60 plague marines marching up the board with blightlords and deathshrouds in the mix as well (either cloud of flies or teleporting in).

All your lascannon and melta shots are overkill, but your single shot bolters and heavy bolters are going to take forever to chew through the plague marines and terminators.

A bit slow initially, but once they get to the midboard, its going to be a heck of a time to dislodge them.

All your lascannon and melta shots are overkill

That's the secret. They aren't overkill anymore.

The old anti-tank weapons are anti-heavy infantry weapons, and the mid-strength anti infantry weapons are better AT weapons.

DG just go an extra step down that path. Averaging 3.5 wounds on a d6 damage roll is pretty much exactly what you need - it isn't overkill at all.

In some ways it reminds me of RT and 2nd (pre vehicle damage changes), where you were better off saving lascannons and missile launchers for characters. Except now, you need them for even basic marines on the line.

I don't know. It still sounds inefficient to use lascannon shots to kill plague marines. These are now like 21 points each? And if you roll a 1 or 2 on the damage, you actually fail to kill the plague marine. So, given you are trying to kill a whole squad, there will bound to be some 1s and 2s in your damage rolls. So, how many lascannon shots are you going to require in order to kill a squad of plague marines.

Shooting deathguard terminators with lascannons make sense. But you can bet a big brick of Blightlords will have cloud of flies on it. So you end up having to kill off all the plague marines and stuff around it before you can shoot the blightlords anyway.

So you pack tons of Lascannons and Multi Meltas to counter Death Guard, then get absolutely wrecked by nids or orks next round of the event? If you're tailoring just for a single game hopefully the DG player doesn't use Powewalker screens.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Mass infantry deathguard is looking very interesting to me right now honestly. Imagine like 60 plague marines marching up the board with blightlords and deathshrouds in the mix as well (either cloud of flies or teleporting in).

Agreed, but my mind went in a bit of a different direction - Possessed. Rush Morty up the field flanked on both sides by full units of Possessed. That's 78 wounds rushing toward you at T5/T8 with good saves and -1 damage. Most armies will be hard-pressed to deal with that amount of wounds in a short time and that's only 970pts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH GW did the same with Loyalist marines nuking Scouts from orbit. GW clearly wants their marine factions to USE marines.

Then why not just make the base unit good?

Easier said than done. That sweet stop where unit A and unit B are both equally good is elusive at best. Much easier to place limits on army creation rather than to find the perfect balance of rules and points to make things equal in the eyes of the players.

 puma713 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Mass infantry deathguard is looking very interesting to me right now honestly. Imagine like 60 plague marines marching up the board with blightlords and deathshrouds in the mix as well (either cloud of flies or teleporting in).

Agreed, but my mind went in a bit of a different direction - Possessed. Rush Morty up the field flanked on both sides by full units of Possessed. That's 78 wounds rushing toward you at T5/T8 with good saves and -1 damage. Most armies will be hard-pressed to deal with that amount of wounds in a short time and that's only 970pts.

Hmm, I am still not sure about Morty. If even a knight can be easily brought down in one turn. Even with Morty's buffs, I think he can still die in one round. Can Morty hide behind cover? If he can, then yeah, that's doable. If he can't, he will just be like a knight and gets killed in one turn.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't know. It still sounds inefficient to use lascannon shots to kill plague marines. These are now like 21 points each? And if you roll a 1 or 2 on the damage, you actually fail to kill the plague marine. So, given you are trying to kill a whole squad, there will bound to be some 1s and 2s in your damage rolls. So, how many lascannon shots are you going to require in order to kill a squad of plague marines.

Shooting deathguard terminators with lascannons make sense. But you can bet a big brick of Blightlords will have cloud of flies on it. So you end up having to kill off all the plague marines and stuff around it before you can shoot the blightlords anyway.

Depends if they keep 4++ or not. If they do, that's not a great use of lascannons, especially since you have very good odds of _not_ one-shotting DG terminators with a lascannon (3.5-1=not dead). 3s to hit (or worse), 3s to wound, 4+ to do enough damage and maybe 4+ to just bounce anyway? Poor odds.
And at 4 CP for terminators, they can't do cloud of flies often... and are they deploying their terminators on foot in the back of their lines? Good luck to them.

l0ki wrote:So you pack tons of Lascannons and Multi Meltas to counter Death Guard, then get absolutely wrecked by nids or orks next round of the event? If you're tailoring just for a single game hopefully the DG player doesn't use Powewalker screens.

I'm not really sure what common ork and tyranid lists look like these days, but I doubt they're free of good targets for AT weapons. It wouldn't be all gaunts and boyz.

Poxwalker screens could be kind of fun. Poor resilience and slowing anything they're screening from getting to objectives.

Persomally, I wouldn't go crazy on poxwalkers. Maybe just 20 in the backfield on objectives possibly. Like you got dozens of obsec plague marines marching up the midboard plus blightlords and deathshrouds deepstriking in. If you want to try and shoot up those 20 poxwalkers at the very back of my backfield instead with your long range weapons, be my guest... lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Mass infantry deathguard is looking very interesting to me right now honestly. Imagine like 60 plague marines marching up the board with blightlords and deathshrouds in the mix as well (either cloud of flies or teleporting in).

Agreed, but my mind went in a bit of a different direction - Possessed. Rush Morty up the field flanked on both sides by full units of Possessed. That's 78 wounds rushing toward you at T5/T8 with good saves and -1 damage. Most armies will be hard-pressed to deal with that amount of wounds in a short time and that's only 970pts.

Hmm, I am still not sure about Morty. If even a knight can be easily brought down in one turn. Even with Morty's buffs, I think he can still die in one round. Can Morty hide behind cover? If he can, then yeah, that's doable. If he can't, he will just be like a knight and gets killed in one turn.

Don’t believe Morty can benefit from obscuring terrain, but even then, if you lose Morty in one turn, you’re doing it wrong. Someone in another thread did the math and showed that he is more resilient to melta weapons at T8 and -1D than his old incarnation and that was BEFORE we knew that he retained a 5+ FNP. If you build a list around him (which is the only way to build a list with him in it) you just have to know there are games where you’re gonna have to spend the 3 CP to put him in reserve in order to give yourself a chance to target whatever the scariest thing to him in your opponent’s army is. I know DG are slow and don’t have a ton of potent long range options but I’m sure there will be ways to manage this in 2 turns. That said, without knowing the full picture I think that the most potent way to run Mortarion will be some unfluffy soup list with other pskers (as long as that no psyker rumor is indeed fake) to buff him with warptime and or -1 to hit from a nurgle herald. Although if there is a psychic power in the DG codex that grants -1 to hit, blessed be, that should be enough to propel him to nightmarish levels of impossible to deal with.

I don't know, I'm kind of excited to run some possessed either a large squad or a couple small squads, they just feel good for tough shock troops with back up from the plague marines if needed. I'm pretty excited with the prospects for supporting that forward press I do love.

I'm probably gonna just go with 15 Terminators, three max groups of Poxwalkers, and ally in some Alpha Legion. Doesn't seem like anything is lost from bringing in other detachments is there?

Auspex Tactics(YouTube Channel) is reporting the following for Deadly Pathogens. They can be given to any non named character and any unit champion. Can't be added to grenades or relics. Limit 1 per character. Points are same as FAQ or add 1 PL. Can be added to melee or shooting weapons.

Each Deadly Pathogen Adds +1 STR to weapon in addition to each ability

Acidic Malady - 20pts - Improve AP by 1(AP0 becomes AP -1)
Explosive Outbreak - 20pts - Exploding 6s to hit
Virulent Fever - 20pts - Wound rolls of 6 = MW
Befouling Runoff - 10pts - ignores cover
Unstable Sickness - 15pts - each enemy model killed gives a 4+ chance to deal a MW to same unit
Corrosive Filth - 20pts - +1 damage vs vehicles
Viscous Death - 10pts - reroll number of attacks


Link to the source video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV2xUxTeCvg&t=316s

Huh, now that's a lazy recut of the original DI sprue! Includes a partial Death Guard marine.

 BrookM wrote:
Huh, now that's a lazy recut of the original DI sprue! Includes a partial Death Guard marine.

It's not a recut.

As I said back when we found out the contents of the Combat Patrol box - that is the DI sprue.

Just consider the half of a plague marine as a gift, and taste of times past.

Atleast you get a cool backpack and awesome shoulder pad for free

You can theoretically use one of them together with the other half that comes in the Campions box

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Huh, now that's a lazy recut of the original DI sprue! Includes a partial Death Guard marine.

It's not a recut.

As I said back when we found out the contents of the Combat Patrol box - that is the DI sprue.

It was the same with Conquest. One issue came with the Plague Marines and the instruction to keep some bits safe to one side until the Poxwalker issue z couple of months later.

That's the new Decapitatus Demi-Astartes, rules in next month's white dwarf

Watching tabletoptactics review...

Daemon Princes are Lords of the the deathguard so we can only have one CC type lord in a detatchment.

Considering we have no lieutenant type HQs that's a bit annoying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plague Surgeon is 3" 6+++ to all infantry

Poxwalkers have 6+++ built in

alphaecho wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Huh, now that's a lazy recut of the original DI sprue! Includes a partial Death Guard marine.

It's not a recut.

As I said back when we found out the contents of the Combat Patrol box - that is the DI sprue.

It was the same with Conquest. One issue came with the Plague Marines and the instruction to keep some bits safe to one side until the Poxwalker issue z couple of months later.

Paying money for new sprue just to remove that pm bits would be extreme

I am usually quite blind to most of the GW prices, but £37.50 for the Chosen of Mortarion set of 3 miniatures is ridiculous. I pity those that missed out on Dark Imperium or Conquest.

4++ inv confirmed on terminators on TTT review.

YES!!!!

Guys, what kind of lists are you thinking about when you talk about killing mortarion in 1 turn of fire?

I honestly can't imagine one. Only a salamander list with 2 full squads of erads can do it... maybe.

Doohicky wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plague Surgeon is 3" 6+++ to all infantry

Poxwalkers have 6+++ built in

Really happy to hear there's something for both these.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doohicky wrote:
4++ inv confirmed on terminators on TTT review.

This is equally good news.

Sprues and Brews review

Goonhammer review

Thing that stood out to me was the changes to weapon options on BL & PM units. Looking good though!

The video in the sprues and brews review above has the guy actually flipping through and reading every page, if you want to know anything specific.

So the 7 man PMs are gone.

Spoletta wrote:
Guys, what kind of lists are you thinking about when you talk about killing mortarion in 1 turn of fire?

I honestly can't imagine one. Only a salamander list with 2 full squads of erads can do it... maybe.

My friend had an ad mech army with a unit of 6 iron striders. I once tried running a Lord of skulls with -1 to hit from prayers. He threw a couple of CP onto that iron strider unit, and it was of course within Crawl's aura. It had like rerolls galore, +2 to hit (negating my -1), and did mortal wounds to boot. And he used rerolls to fish for more mortal wounds. So, even before the normal damage was counted up, the unit had dumped 15 mortal wounds on my Lord of skulls already. Needless to say, it went down for the count within one volley of shooting. And that's without factoring any other shooting (which he of course did have).

Only negatives so far for me invovle my plague knife blob being useless and my 10 man combi-plasma Blightlord unit being illegal (can only take 2x max in a 10 man unit now).

Why is the plague knife blob useless? Honest question. I thought they would be better now. Or is it that paired knives don't give extra attacks or something like that?

Doohicky wrote:
Why is the plague knife blob useless? Honest question. I thought they would be better now. Or is it that paired knives don't give extra attacks or something like that?

Unit wargear choices are basically entirely dependent on what's in the box now, e.g. so you can only have a maximum of 2 Plague Marines with dual knives in a 10 man squad or a maximum of 2 Blightlords with combi-plasmas in a 10 man squad. For new players, this isn't an issue at all: just build what you get in the box. For those of us who hunted down spare parts or spent time converting to make e.g. a 10 man squad of Blightlords with a particular combi-weapon, or a 10 man squad of Plague Marines all armed with knives, our builds have been completely invalidated.

I'm all for the death of the 5 man MSU special weapon spam, but wish they hadn't made invalid some units I'd spent a lot of time on

Seems like an incredible book at first glance. Another 9th ed winner... A clear design principle and a lot of options. A couple of glaring issues (the movement reducing contagion) stand out. Plus I really dislike the Lord of the Death Guard limitation - the rule is fine in a vacuum, it is just weird giving the lack of non-DG Lord models in the HQ slot.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
Why is the plague knife blob useless? Honest question. I thought they would be better now. Or is it that paired knives don't give extra attacks or something like that?

Unit wargear choices are basically entirely dependent on what's in the box now, e.g. so you can only have a maximum of 2 Plague Marines with dual knives in a 10 man squad or a maximum of 2 Blightlords with combi-plasmas in a 10 man squad. For new players, this isn't an issue at all: just build what you get in the box. For those of us who hunted down spare parts or spent time converting to make e.g. a 10 man squad of Blightlords with a particular combi-weapon, or a 10 man squad of Plague Marines all armed with knives, our builds have been completely invalidated.

I'm all for the death of the 5 man MSU special weapon spam, but wish they hadn't made invalid some units I'd spent a lot of time on

Oh crap, what if they impose those kind of limitations on the CSM terminators. Imagine being forced to only use the options in that box.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
Why is the plague knife blob useless? Honest question. I thought they would be better now. Or is it that paired knives don't give extra attacks or something like that?

Unit wargear choices are basically entirely dependent on what's in the box now, e.g. so you can only have a maximum of 2 Plague Marines with dual knives in a 10 man squad or a maximum of 2 Blightlords with combi-plasmas in a 10 man squad. For new players, this isn't an issue at all: just build what you get in the box. For those of us who hunted down spare parts or spent time converting to make e.g. a 10 man squad of Blightlords with a particular combi-weapon, or a 10 man squad of Plague Marines all armed with knives, our builds have been completely invalidated.

I'm all for the death of the 5 man MSU special weapon spam, but wish they hadn't made invalid some units I'd spent a lot of time on

Oh crap, what if they impose those kind of limitations on the CSM terminators. Imagine being forced to only use the options in that box.

Yeah that occurred to me - which would be particularly weird because from memory you get 2x flamer + melta parts, but only 1x plasma...and what about units like Havocs?

Blightlords can take as many axes or swords as they want (despite the box only coming with 3 of each), so there will probably be exceptions to the rule: we might see a scenario where e.g. Chaos Terminators can take any CC weapons they want but are restricted to 1 or 2 of each type of combi-weapon per 5. Will probably be able to take a heavy flamer and a reaper autocannon in a 5 man squad as well, if the Blightlord box is anything to go by.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
Why is the plague knife blob useless? Honest question. I thought they would be better now. Or is it that paired knives don't give extra attacks or something like that?

Unit wargear choices are basically entirely dependent on what's in the box now, e.g. so you can only have a maximum of 2 Plague Marines with dual knives in a 10 man squad or a maximum of 2 Blightlords with combi-plasmas in a 10 man squad. For new players, this isn't an issue at all: just build what you get in the box. For those of us who hunted down spare parts or spent time converting to make e.g. a 10 man squad of Blightlords with a particular combi-weapon, or a 10 man squad of Plague Marines all armed with knives, our builds have been completely invalidated.

I'm all for the death of the 5 man MSU special weapon spam, but wish they hadn't made invalid some units I'd spent a lot of time on

But can I still take 2 flails, 2 maces and five axes in a 10 man PM unit?