Beardedragon wrote: Hey guys, do any of you remember what the list was like with the 3 Kill tanks and ghaz and goffs? I cant find it anywhere. Id like to do something similar but i need a reference point.
I saved it for the future on 1d4chan
Spoiler:
Marcus Robinson - 1st on Warhammer World Matched Play Event / Sep 21
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Orks) [46 PL, 9CP, 825pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
+ No Force Org Slot +
Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, 65pts]
+ HQ +
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-Blasta
Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Krushin’ Armour, Stratagem: Big Boss
Automatically Appended Next Post: The biggest issue with the this buggy nerf is tagging of the units. Now you have all buggies of one type in one unit.
Easy to tag.
On other side - easy to cover in KFF, cloud of smoke and spiked ram will vomit mortals like a hell.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Freeboota Warlord trait has finaly a use - add one to your Ld = safe your buggies and warbiker squads of 3 from fail.
And helps deffkoptas with their stupid Ld6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Face to this nerf, Speed Mob from Critical mass seems to be even better, because it allows you to be more kunnin and actually score some points.
Overall I actually like the ork "nerfs": 2 flyers is already the limit I'd like to tolerate for 2000 points games and buggies we have 5 kinds of them, all viable at least.
2 Freebooters dakkajets will still do a lot of damage.
We didn't need 3+ flyers and that many scarpjets/squigbuggies to compete.
Personally I use to run 3 single scrapjets so I'm thinking about what to do, merging all models into a single squad for the first game probably but the huge footprint of a 3 vehicle squad is an issue. Maybe I'll replace them with two different buggies. Or feth it, I'll drop all three scrapjets for a Kill Tank
I’m still using 3 squigbuggies and 3 scrap jets not sure if this nerf does anything but make KJ useless…
I mean maybe I’ll have issues moving 3 scrapjets in a squadron and have to drop it to 2. But there is also huge bonuses for running 3x scrapjets like ramming speed, spiked ram, the new speed mob strat crashing through.
I think the only nerf this change really does is screw the shokk jump dragsta into a 1 model unit cause the teleport is just awful in squadrons and ruin all kustom jobs.
Beardedragon wrote: Hey guys, do any of you remember what the list was like with the 3 Kill tanks and ghaz and goffs? I cant find it anywhere. Id like to do something similar but i need a reference point.
I saved it for the future on 1d4chan
Spoiler:
Marcus Robinson - 1st on Warhammer World Matched Play Event / Sep 21 ++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Orks) [46 PL, 9CP, 825pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
+ No Force Org Slot +
Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, 65pts]
+ HQ +
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-Blasta
Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Krushin’ Armour, Stratagem: Big Boss
Automatically Appended Next Post: The biggest issue with the this buggy nerf is tagging of the units. Now you have all buggies of one type in one unit.
Easy to tag.
On other side - easy to cover in KFF, cloud of smoke and spiked ram will vomit mortals like a hell.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Freeboota Warlord trait has finaly a use - add one to your Ld = safe your buggies and warbiker squads of 3 from fail.
And helps deffkoptas with their stupid Ld6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Face to this nerf, Speed Mob from Critical mass seems to be even better, because it allows you to be more kunnin and actually score some points.
thanks buddy, ive saved the list for future references aswell.
Ive been toying with the idea of putting a single kill tank for 1 CP in to a freebootas list. not sure if it will work or not though
After sleeping over the news (And deleting 80% of my battlescribe lists^^) I think besides the hustle to move around squads of 3 Scrapjets it's not too bad.
Guess my lists will take a Souped up Snazzwagon from now on, 13/17 shots in Speedwaagh has a similar output as a single Squigbuggy and 1-2 Boosta Blastas + 2 Dragstas will be ok as well.
Who'd thought the souped up Snazzwagon has a chance to become our most used Custom Job one day.
They can help with Engage, especially with the lack of Secondaries in a Speed Mob.
Also since we need to be a bit more carefull with our squad of 3 Scrapjets now & will have more CP sometimes, More Dakka will see more use I guess to keep them a bit safer.
While at first I thought this update was a nerf on Speedmob as well, I think its kind of an improvement as it buffs Warbikers and Koptas, who stayed unharmed and got more valid with the nerfs to the Squigbuggy / Scrapjet spam.
Looks like it's time to finish painting the remaining Koptas and Bikes now.
I mean speed mob has no lack of Strats to use now… probably partly why I like it.
I’m leaning toward 2 boostas
instead of snazzwagon..
i like the reroll 1-2 strat better (plus spiked ram strat) then the extra hit on 6 when falling back on snazz.
Also pyromaniacs on boosta in speedmob makes them a lot more reliable damage.
I agree though this nerf isn’t bad but it doesn’t fix buggy issues all it does is ruin kustom jobs.. and while most kustom jobs suck… that doesn’t mean I want to never have the chance to use them.
This nerf solve a little bit the spam buggy issue. But mostly the AIRCRAFT issue, which has 2 big aspects:
1. The whole 9th is a lot about reduce the gofirst=win issue. And the main instrument to do it is the terrain. If you can hide, you will survive T1 going second. AIRCRAFTS go around it and see everything, everywhere.
2. There is a problem with AIRCRAFT bases. De facto you can screen your army with something in the sky that is impossible to charge from the ground. In small numbers - ok, skip it. But if you use 6 or 9 jets and make a thick wall from planes in front of your army blocking any way to charge what is behind, that it is really on the edge of abusing the rules. Well, it can be solved fo example some way like pipes are. But it can create another issues.
So GW solved both of these problems in one. Simply reduce the number of jets.
… Imagine you can play 3 wazboom, 3 dakkajet and 9 squigbuggies before nerf. You don' t need any tactics. Just shoot.
I spoke with one dude who played 3+3jets recently and he said, that he will not gonna play this “cancer” anymore, that he feels like dick.
Speed Mob focusing on more complicated tricks seems to be more fun and fair way to play.
I mean you can still screen with 2 jets it’s just less space to cover….. and you still get decent shooting as most people didn’t play with 4-6 they played 2-3 at least for orks…
And buggies you can still spam 9-12 buggies but it’s now only limited to 6 squig and scraps which I guess is the nerf… but this could have been done with a simple max 3 model limit instead of a single unit which ruins kustom jobs. And it’s not like KBB or shokk jump is bad they just have slightly different roles. Bottom line I’m still spamming 8 buggies it’s now just 3 squigs, 3 scraps, 2 KBB and if I really feel the need for another buggy a solo shokkjump. I just feel the nerf was poorly done and ruined an entire section of our codex that had nothing to do with competitive 40K but was used more for fun match games that isn’t available anymore because of poorly thought out rules writing.
gungo wrote: I mean you can still screen with 2 jets it’s just less space to cover….. and you still get decent shooting as most people didn’t play with 4-6 they played 2-3 at least for orks…
And buggies you can still spam 9-12 buggies but it’s now only limited to 6 squig and scraps which I guess is the nerf… but this could have been done with a simple max 3 model limit instead of a single unit which ruins kustom jobs. And it’s not like KBB or shokk jump is bad they just have slightly different roles. Bottom line I’m still spamming 8 buggies it’s now just 3 squigs, 3 scraps, 2 KBB and if I really feel the need for another buggy a solo shokkjump. I just feel the nerf was poorly done and ruined an entire section of our codex that had nothing to do with competitive 40K but was used more for fun match games that isn’t available anymore because of poorly thought out rules writing.
Yes. What else to say.
I see the point in airscraft limit.
The rest is just a mess and the effect is very questionable.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m glad orks never change, we’re already back to being the off-meta it seems.
I can't help but feel the irony in comments like this while people claim this FAQ by GW was knee jerk.
How is this ironic? This has been the de facto setting for orkz for a few editions now. We are counter-meta and anytime we see some form of competitive success there are calls to nerf us to hell and back. Look at last edition, you had people complain that boyz were OP....8ppm Boyz were OP! Think about that, T4 6+ save...but totally OP. Why? Because every meta list was running plasma/melta spam or similar weapon spam. Nobody brought anti-horde because nobody needed to, Nidz were a joke, GSC weren't doing well, IG were bringing tanks, so it was just orkz running 120-180 Boyz that was pissing people off. Were Boyz OP last edition? Nope, but it screwed with the Meta and made players either address a fundamental flaw in their list (no ability to deal with cheap infantry en mass) or to lose and give the Orkz a victory based on their inability to deal with an easy problem.
Are Ork buggies OP? no, its just counter meta. Again, the DE Player who was beaten at SoCal open had 5 Blasters total...5 weapons capable of dealing with vehicles. He was relying on Low strength high AP attacks with multi-dmg to deal with any vehicles he ran into...or to put it another way, the worst possible build against ork vehicles with ramshackle. So this isn't ironic, its stereotypical.
Tomsug wrote: We are and we will be a serious threat.
Today is a time to be angry and complain, but we will be fine.
Delete the “if go first, kill everything” kind of the list is always good and this time it was our turn.
I just don' t like the “system” they use for this nerf. It makes a mess and it is stupid.
And it does not solve the problem.
The problem is, that we have no chance to score. So we need to delete enemy ASAP. So any kind of our succesfull list will be “if go first, kill everything” kind of the list and the story will be the same.
Fix ork secondaries and orks start to be kunnin.
And this is the problem. The ork archetype is flimsy units with little durability but incredibly cheap. For every Space Marine we should be able to take 3-4 Boyz, for every Leman Russ we should be taking 3-4 Buggies etc. With the new points costs for ork units, we are no longer "cheap" but we are still somewhat flimsy, the new ramshackle has helped a bit but realistically, if an enemy wants to pop a couple buggies....hes going to pop a couple buggies. So Ork armies right now are alphork strike or at most Beta strike because we don't have the staying power to keep competing much later than that if we don't remove a significant portion of the enemy turn 1-2.
Blackie wrote: Overall I actually like the ork "nerfs": 2 flyers is already the limit I'd like to tolerate for 2000 points games and buggies we have 5 kinds of them, all viable at least.
2 Freebooters dakkajets will still do a lot of damage.
We didn't need 3+ flyers and that many scarpjets/squigbuggies to compete.
Personally I use to run 3 single scrapjets so I'm thinking about what to do, merging all models into a single squad for the first game probably but the huge footprint of a 3 vehicle squad is an issue. Maybe I'll replace them with two different buggies. Or feth it, I'll drop all three scrapjets for a Kill Tank
I'm not a fan of the flyer nerf for a few reasons, the biggest being that I own 3 flyers and now have little to no chance to use them all in a game...mind you, I haven't been running buggy/flyer spam with freeboota this edition.
Think about this though, GW just artificially limited flyers to 2 in a 2k point game...that means for orkz that we can only take 240pts of Flyers (Dakkajets) it also heavily nerfs any reason to take the Wazbom since its KFF is kind of pointless if its only guarding 1 other model besides itself. Put that in comparison to the new/crappy KFF, for 30pts you can protect a 12' bubble of units! with a 6+ I consider that to be garbage but you can easily cover a HUGE section of your army with a 6++ Invuln with relative ease since they just need to touch the bubble for the entire unit to benefit from it.
I just am not a fan of GW arbitrarily changing unit sizes after a lot of people have close to the max sized currently. I mentioned it before but this new edition I have lost access to Mek gunz, stormboyz, warbikes because I have too many. I also lost the use of most of my boyz but at least those are because they now suck rather than the unit size being FORCIBLY changed to 10.
I still think the buggy nerf will be undone once they decide how to properly balance rukkatrukks and scrapjets. Otherwise they're nerfing three other units that don't need a nerf.
pfft like GW cares about that sort of thing. Look at Guard, they have a plane that can be squadroned. Except now it cant bring a full squad because its limited to 2 aircraft MODELS not units lol
Not a competitive thing by any stretch of the imagination, but was still something some guard players liked doing.
I'm not a fan of the flyer nerf for a few reasons, the biggest being that I own 3 flyers and now have little to no chance to use them all in a game...mind you, I haven't been running buggy/flyer spam with freeboota this edition.
Well, you could still run all three in bigger games. And unless they're fully magnetized or modelled in the same way it's not like one of those three models is specifically banned from 2k games, if they're different you can choose between all of them.
I admit I'm biased toward flyers because I hate them, playing against two still annoys me a lot .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Afrodactyl wrote: I still think the buggy nerf will be undone once they decide how to properly balance rukkatrukks and scrapjets. Otherwise they're nerfing three other units that don't need a nerf.
The three other units have actually been buffed by this patch. No one was bringing 4+ of them anyway and now they have more chances to show up! Max 3 of each buggy is still a lot of buggies.
Blackie wrote: Overall I actually like the ork "nerfs": 2 flyers is already the limit I'd like to tolerate for 2000 points games and buggies we have 5 kinds of them, all viable at least.
2 Freebooters dakkajets will still do a lot of damage.
We didn't need 3+ flyers and that many scarpjets/squigbuggies to compete.
Personally I use to run 3 single scrapjets so I'm thinking about what to do, merging all models into a single squad for the first game probably but the huge footprint of a 3 vehicle squad is an issue. Maybe I'll replace them with two different buggies. Or feth it, I'll drop all three scrapjets for a Kill Tank
Having more than two fliers should absolutely be allowed. I was zoggin makin a flya wing. No more airwaagh
To be fair flyer nerf is match play only….
Leaving open or narrative play… I generally play narrative crusade play with friends. It allows them to use old legend models and other non competitive fun stuff with points… I mean it’s hard to bring 3 flyers in a pick up store game though as that’s really match play to prevent abusive gak. I’m fine w the aircraft nerf but I only used 2 flyers, but I think it a gak fix since this doesn’t address the real problem which is flyer base blocking assaults… so now the opposing player only needs to move an additional 6+ inches to go around the wall of 2x flyer bases? I mean that doesn’t solve the problem it just lessens it…but I can live with the flyer nerf as I don’t think there is a good fix regardless.
The aircraft change should have been tournament only though as that’s really where the issues are…
And NO the other buggies weren’t buffed… I mean shokk jump took the buggy nerf the hardest. It is literally useless with 3 buggy size unit as you are never going to be able to use the jump ability.. it is pretty much relegated to a single model all the time now.
Afrodactyl wrote: I still think the buggy nerf will be undone once they decide how to properly balance rukkatrukks and scrapjets. Otherwise they're nerfing three other units that don't need a nerf.
do you really think GW is capable of undoing stuff they fethed up? They are not. The fact our other buggies were hit is just collateral damage for them
My biggest frustration is that I can't hardly buy/build/paint a model before the rules get changed. I order 3 squigbuggies when the codex came out, and finally received them maybe a month ago.
There is almost no incentive to buy new models, knowing that if they are good, they will be nerfed before you can even use them.
I'm not a fan of the flyer nerf for a few reasons, the biggest being that I own 3 flyers and now have little to no chance to use them all in a game...mind you, I haven't been running buggy/flyer spam with freeboota this edition.
Well, you could still run all three in bigger games. And unless they're fully magnetized or modelled in the same way it's not like one of those three models is specifically banned from 2k games, if they're different you can choose between all of them.
I admit I'm biased toward flyers because I hate them, playing against two still annoys me a lot .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Afrodactyl wrote: I still think the buggy nerf will be undone once they decide how to properly balance rukkatrukks and scrapjets. Otherwise they're nerfing three other units that don't need a nerf.
The three other units have actually been buffed by this patch. No one was bringing 4+ of them anyway and now they have more chances to show up! Max 3 of each buggy is still a lot of buggies.
A unit isnt buffed by other things being nerfed. It just equals the gak really. They will probably see play, but they were not buffed.
I’m just worried that despite blasting buggies and making that third Dakkajet all lonely, they’re not going to teeth up the rest of our dex. I think all our infantry units could use a point drop, literally all of em.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m just worried that despite blasting buggies and making that third Dakkajet all lonely, they’re not going to teeth up the rest of our dex. I think all our infantry units could use a point drop, literally all of em.
Well. our infantry shooting should benefit from one of the waaaghs which they dont right now. Meaning theres no point in bringing lots of infantry shooting barring burna boys maybe, because they will miss out on that sweet waaaagh bonus.
A side tangent, but I wish we had gotten custom waaaaghs. Pick your big primary trait that lasts a turn, then your secondary trait that lasts 2. Maybe get an option for a primary/secondary depending on the klan.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m just worried that despite blasting buggies and making that third Dakkajet all lonely, they’re not going to teeth up the rest of our dex. I think all our infantry units could use a point drop, literally all of em.
Aside from kommandos, I agree, they are just so bad... If orks vnish from tournament results then I guess we wait for 3 months and then we get our infantry point drop though, right ? Thats is the "new" (as of yesterday) GW.
Afrodactyl wrote: I still think the buggy nerf will be undone once they decide how to properly balance rukkatrukks and scrapjets. Otherwise they're nerfing three other units that don't need a nerf.
do you really think GW is capable of undoing stuff they fethed up? They are not. The fact our other buggies were hit is just collateral damage for them
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m just worried that despite blasting buggies and making that third Dakkajet all lonely, they’re not going to teeth up the rest of our dex. I think all our infantry units could use a point drop, literally all of em.
Kommandos are perfect where they are, they don't need anything to make them better, a point drop would flat out make them OP.
I would like Stormboyz to stay the same price but get 5+ armor, Boyz...there isn't any way to fix boyz primary issue with just a points drop. You can make them 7ppm, and all that will do is change out some lists to take a unit of trukkboyz instead of taking the CP tax for no troops.
Foot sloggin boyz, even at T5 are just too squishy to have an impact on the game, especially when all of their dmg is done in CC which means you will be struggling to get them into CC by turn 3 which in turn means your opponent has at a minimum 2 full turns to blast the hell out of them. They especially don't work well in the freeboota meta play since they don' tmatch up with anything. The only way I could see boyz making a valid return in the game would be to allow the trukk boyz buff to work on ANY trukk rather than just 1 per detachment. In other words, without a reliable way to deliver them turn 1 or turn 2 at the latest you just can't make them worth taking for anything beyond objective holding and we have a lot of other units that are better at holding objectives.
2 more datasheets for evil sun characters are in this months white dwarf…. I assume crusade but who feking knows as it doesn’t say… like grukk facerippa and the goff rocker last ork release… feel free to zoom onto the preview to see.
The Theaters of War Missions are the Narrative Missions we got in the Psychic Awakening books, so it probably won't be for matched play as the article mentions theater of war.
But maybe the characters will actually get a matched play profile - as far as I know the Theaters of War Missions only contained mission specific Strategems and no data sheets.
But hey, who nows!
At least many of us have spare (Buggy) models now for fun Speedwaagh vs Speedwaagh games like the Speed Freaks box
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m just worried that despite blasting buggies and making that third Dakkajet all lonely, they’re not going to teeth up the rest of our dex. I think all our infantry units could use a point drop, literally all of em.
Kommandos are perfect where they are, they don't need anything to make them better, a point drop would flat out make them OP.
I would like Stormboyz to stay the same price but get 5+ armor, Boyz...there isn't any way to fix boyz primary issue with just a points drop. You can make them 7ppm, and all that will do is change out some lists to take a unit of trukkboyz instead of taking the CP tax for no troops.
Foot sloggin boyz, even at T5 are just too squishy to have an impact on the game, especially when all of their dmg is done in CC which means you will be struggling to get them into CC by turn 3 which in turn means your opponent has at a minimum 2 full turns to blast the hell out of them. They especially don't work well in the freeboota meta play since they don' tmatch up with anything. The only way I could see boyz making a valid return in the game would be to allow the trukk boyz buff to work on ANY trukk rather than just 1 per detachment. In other words, without a reliable way to deliver them turn 1 or turn 2 at the latest you just can't make them worth taking for anything beyond objective holding and we have a lot of other units that are better at holding objectives.
I think a lot could be done to make boyz better:
1) Reduce boyz points to 8ppm
2) Reduce the trukk points to 55-60 points
3) Reduce the painboy to 60 points.
4) Let shootas be Assault 3 or let them remain Dakka 2/3 but with S4AP1. Adding 6" to their range could also be contemplated.
5) Give them +1 LD when close to a warboss and +1 LD when close to a Banner Nob and +1 LD when more than 15 models. Cumulative.
6) Instead of having a "grot shield" stratagam, make grot shields an innate Boyz ability like this: Grot shields: Everytime you remove an ork boyz model as a casualty, you can instead remove a Gretchin model within 3". Not huge, but it allows you to add 5 ppm ablative wounds to a boyz mob.
7) I think Kommandos are really good, and Stormboyz are fine as they are, and both units are often taken in competetive lists.
8) I dont like the idea of allowing all boyz be trukkboyz in a list. It wouldn't fix our troop slot, it would just make it possible to make gimmicky skew lists.
pismakron wrote: I think a lot could be done to make boyz better:
1) Reduce boyz points to 8ppm
2) Reduce the trukk points to 55-60 points
3) Reduce the painboy to 60 points.
Pain boy could probably even drop to 50 without breaking anything. The assassination secondary is already a decent counter-weight.
4) Let shootas be Assault 3 or let them remain Dakka 2/3 but with S4AP1. Adding 6" to their range could also be contemplated.
Try running them as bad moons once... +6" doesn't do gak. I'm not sure how to buff them, but currently there are next to no units in the game that are successful with bolter equivalent weapons unless they can generate a ton of stratagem-buffed hits with them.
5) Give them +1 LD when close to a warboss and +1 LD when close to a Banner Nob and +1 LD when more than 15 models. Cumulative.
+2 ld near warboss or +1 ld near any kind of nob (not stacking) is probably a more fluffy way to put it without making it "ignore morale" again. You could also bring back boss poles as upgrade (used to re-roll morale checks for the unit).
6) Instead of having a "grot shield" stratagam, make grot shields an innate Boyz ability like this: Grot shields: Everytime you remove an ork boyz model as a casualty, you can instead remove a Gretchin model within 3". Not huge, but it allows you to add 5 ppm ablative wounds to a boyz mob.
You could also do something like gretchin provide a 5++ to INFANTRY behind them, but every successful save kills a grot.
For a revised Mob Rule that isn't just "ignore morale" I thought cumulative Ld bonuses based on nearby models was the way to go, but once again numbers based like it was before. Something like "+1 if this unit contains at least 20 models, +1 if this unit is within 9" of at least one other Ork unit with 10 or more models". Ld9 is perfectly breakable with the sorts of numbers you'd lose on large mobs to shooting, but not auto-break like it is currently.
Grots have thier own problem but grot shields on boys mob as a free innate ability is nice.
Bring back +1 atk w 20 boys
Drop boys 1pt
Make boys 6ld, nob is 7, ever 10 boys is +1 ld 10+ Equal 8ld, 20+ equal 9ld, 30 equal 10ld…
Which means boys are better w morale the large the unit.. but once you kill some they break up quickly. This means specialist are more likely to break like now unless they are 10+.
Gretchins did have a similar rule in 3rd, they granted 5+ cover to friendly units behind them and each successful cover roll killed a gretchin in return.
I disagree about bonuses on 20+ man squads. Blasts are maxed out at 11+, so also offensive buffs should be triggered at 11+. 11-19 dudes are already large squads for GW standards. Maybe add +1A for 11+ dudes and also +1LD for 20+ dudes.
The real point of upgrading the boyz is to give a purpose to every possible size of the squad, not just min squads or blobs. Also 15-20 man squads should exist.
They really should just make a separate shoota boy and slugga boy datasheet to be honest. It's been very rare when they've been balanced against one another (the closest I think was 5th edition and early 8th ed) and having separate datasheets makes it so they can specialize in making the primary weapon relevant.
Shoota boyz should either be BS4+ base or have some type of mob ability where a squad of 11+ or more gets +1 to hit if they all shoot at the same target. Maybe even increasing the number of shots they make with their shootas?
Slugga boyz get back their old +1A if there's 11+ or more in the squad.
In both cases, bosspoles should come back to allow you to reroll failed morale and +1Ld as others have mentioned for every 10 boyz in the squad. Having Nobz and Warbosses buff that further also makes it so we don't just have a CC buff and a ridiculously overpriced ignore morale strat (should be 0CP).
Grimskul wrote: They really should just make a separate shoota boy and slugga boy datasheet to be honest. It's been very rare when they've been balanced against one another (the closest I think was 5th edition and early 8th ed) and having separate datasheets makes it so they can specialize in making the primary weapon relevant.
I can assure you that the only reason to run slugga boyz in 5th was because you could get them cheap from AOBR
Grimskul wrote: They really should just make a separate shoota boy and slugga boy datasheet to be honest. It's been very rare when they've been balanced against one another (the closest I think was 5th edition and early 8th ed) and having separate datasheets makes it so they can specialize in making the primary weapon relevant.
I can assure you that the only reason to run slugga boyz in 5th was because you could get them cheap from AOBR
Haha, you're not wrong!
If they also at least made the caveat that you could advance and shoot with Dakka weapons with a -1 to hit penalty, it would make so many Ork units more mobile again without having to rely on a regiment of renown.
When looking at the masterfully crafted DG codex where everything locks into each other with next to no rules issues, creative and flavorful mechanics and great gameplay feel for almost every unit, and then look at the cobbled-together ramshackle piece of scrap that the ork codex is, I wonder how both these books can come out of the same rules team.
Jidmah wrote: Ugh, the ork codex is such a mess in that regard.
When looking at the masterfully crafted DG codex where everything locks into each other with next to no rules issues, creative and flavorful mechanics and great gameplay feel for almost every unit, and then look at the cobbled-together ramshackle piece of scrap that the ork codex is, I wonder how both these books can come out of the same rules team.
Well, at least it's a fun piece of scrap.
Yeah, I believe another poster said it best that it seems like there were different teams writing rulesets for separate parts of the codex at the same time that they then had to mash their together into one codex on short notice in order to make it in time for the printers to churn them out. There's definitely a general lack of synergy and it feels like the majority of our units just kind of exist with one another rather than having a clear design philsophy of how which units are meant to support one another.
Better than the 7th ed codex and whatever malarky the WAAAGH! Ghazzy supplement was.
Not sure if it would be a solution. But to me, to fix boyz would be something like... giving painboy an apothecary like treatment, where it could raise 2d3 boys a turn, it would solve some of the issues and solidify it as mandatory support for boyz bricks. this would counteract the massive attrition boyz receive through the game.
But still boyz needing something like that just says how dysfunctional they are. To me they should just remake them. Suggesting point decrease wont fundamentally change their issue, it will feels like a band aid.
But maybe a better solution will be found, not that i am confident on GW.
I mean it’s safe to save no major changes will buff us until 10th… the quarterly update thing was just a reason to throw an emergency nerf to orks…
If they continue the quarterly update and don’t just abandon the idea midway through 2022 it will only consist of minor halfthought rules updates. I don’t see them buffing boys at all especially as they are already looking toward 10th. If chapter approved doesn’t reduce the cost of boys it won’t happen. I do expect more point hikes for us.
Forceride wrote: Not sure if it would be a solution. But to me, to fix boyz would be something like... giving painboy an apothecary like treatment, where it could raise 2d3 boys a turn, it would solve some of the issues and solidify it as mandatory support for boyz bricks. this would counteract the massive attrition boyz receive through the game.
But still boyz needing something like that just says how dysfunctional they are. To me they should just remake them. Suggesting point decrease wont fundamentally change their issue, it will feels like a band aid.
But maybe a better solution will be found, not that i am confident on GW.
Frankly, I always felt like it was a missed opportunity that Painboyz couldn't give some type of "Fighty Juice" buff to one unit with 3" of them that makes an Ork unit either faster, hit harder, or tankier, at the risk of taking mortal wounds at the end of the phase depending on which you chose. I feel like it's very hard to scale the durability on horde units without it being obnoxious or pointless as it is right now. Though the 2D3 boyz honestly might be a good compromise versus just giving out a 6+++ save.
Yeah you'd think painboyz would be injecting orks with "eksperimental gak" to see what happened. Though to be fair GW would never give orks anything like that without it being 60% just plain bad, 20% decent, 10% holy crap OP, and 10% "The unit just died" level of bad.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah you'd think painboyz would be injecting orks with "eksperimental gak" to see what happened.
Though to be fair GW would never give orks anything like that without it being 60% just plain bad, 20% decent, 10% holy crap OP, and 10% "The unit just died" level of bad.
We would get rules like that if we had an ork advocate on the GW rule design team. The fact that we don’t, is to attribute to the absence of such a person on the rule team.
I agree it would be so cool to inject buff stuff with our painboys into our boyz !
Jidmah wrote: Ugh, the ork codex is such a mess in that regard.
When looking at the masterfully crafted DG codex where everything locks into each other with next to no rules issues, creative and flavorful mechanics and great gameplay feel for almost every unit, and then look at the cobbled-together ramshackle piece of scrap that the ork codex is, I wonder how both these books can come out of the same rules team.
Well, at least it's a fun piece of scrap.
Rumour has it that it was supposed to release after the Grey Knigts codex but was moved forwards. And the Ork codex definitely contains a lot of oversights, like the way that both the Speedwagh and the Evil sunz kultur gives the same buff to assault weapons, a weapon type almost entirely replaced with a Dakka profile. Thats just bad design.
And then there are the new Waagh discipline, which is mostly different types of smite, and the specialist lads, of which everything but trukkboyz is underwhelming. And the Mek Gunz, who has four quite similar profiles, of which one is straight up better than the others, pretty much regardless of opponent. Mek gunz also has LD 4 whereas Kans have LD 6. Is that a mistake? Who knows...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: Shootas need to allow boys to move adv shoot
Grots have thier own problem but grot shields on boys mob as a free innate ability is nice.
Bring back +1 atk w 20 boys
Drop boys 1pt
Make boys 6ld, nob is 7, ever 10 boys is +1 ld 10+ Equal 8ld, 20+ equal 9ld, 30 equal 10ld…
Which means boys are better w morale the large the unit.. but once you kill some they break up quickly. This means specialist are more likely to break like now unless they are 10+.
Mob rule ignoring half strength is fine.
Do the above and boys and greentide are fine…
I definitely disagree that the Boyz should have +1 attack. One of the problems with boyz is that they have a lot of melee damage output, and easy acces to offensive melee buffs from Goffs, Waagh, Weirdboyz, Warbosses etc. And in order to cost them appropriatley, in light of their potential damage output, they end up becoming slow moving glasscannons. It would be better, if more of the buffs were durability buffs and/or movement buffs.
Lootas and Tankbustas are even more affected by this. If they had lower damage output they could be costed more like burna boyz.
If anyone please knows, how many CPs is the warzone supplement "Surprise !" (fight last and lose benefits of the charge) stratagem for blodd axe kommandos ?
I think a lot could be done to make boyz better:
1) Reduce boyz points to 8ppm
2) Reduce the trukk points to 55-60 points
3) Reduce the painboy to 60 points.
4) Let shootas be Assault 3 or let them remain Dakka 2/3 but with S4AP1. Adding 6" to their range could also be contemplated.
5) Give them +1 LD when close to a warboss and +1 LD when close to a Banner Nob and +1 LD when more than 15 models. Cumulative.
6) Instead of having a "grot shield" stratagam, make grot shields an innate Boyz ability like this: Grot shields: Everytime you remove an ork boyz model as a casualty, you can instead remove a Gretchin model within 3". Not huge, but it allows you to add 5 ppm ablative wounds to a boyz mob.
7) I think Kommandos are really good, and Stormboyz are fine as they are, and both units are often taken in competetive lists.
8) I dont like the idea of allowing all boyz be trukkboyz in a list. It wouldn't fix our troop slot, it would just make it possible to make gimmicky skew lists.
1-3 would help a bit, as Jid mentioned, the Painboy is borderline useless and could easily go to 50pts without being auto-include. I'd go even further and say you could make him 35pts and he wouldn't be that broken. What is he? A glorified nob with a PK and the ability to grant 6+ FNP and heal 2 wounds a turn. A Nob with a PK is currently over priced at 28pts, so giving him that healing ability for what amounts to 7 actual points or realistically 10pts if the nob was correctly priced, seems about right. Conversely I would really like to see a fluffy/competitive rule added to the Painboy/boss where his FNP becomes similar to Resurrection protocols. Lets say you take 5 wounds from 2Dmg weapons, so 10 total dmg, to save 1 model you would need to roll 2 6s in a row, what if instead you rolled all 10 dice together and for every 2 6s you save 1 model, and you say its just the doc ripping bits off the dead and re-attaching it to the living to make them functional again
If they also at least made the caveat that you could advance and shoot with Dakka weapons with a -1 to hit penalty, it would make so many Ork units more mobile again without having to rely on a regiment of renown.
Lets take a moment and establish the basis for this argument. Are Intercessors good at shooting? IE are they a "competitive" unit by themselves when armed with their 30' S4 -1AP 2 shot Boltguns? I would argue they are ok, but they aren't competitive. The game is just too durable/deadly for them to make much of an impact. So with that in mind, lets compared a 180pts of Intercessors to 180pts of Shoota boyz.
Currently 180pts of Intercessors is 9 models, 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 3dmg vs a Marine profile, at 30' range.
180pts of Shoota boyz is 20 models, 40/60 shots, 13/20 hits, 6.6/10 wounds and 2.2/3.3dmg. at 18 and 9' range. So at HALF range, if you can get 20 shoota boyz into 9' you can do 0.3dmg MORE on average than an unbuffed unit of Intercessors who are camping in cover at 30' range and who can shoot turn 1. When you add in the durability difference...holy crap. Those intercessors have 18 T4 3+ save wounds compared to the Boyz with 20 T5 6+ save wounds. The intercessors are perfectly capable of camping the entire game in cover, the boyz HAVE to move/advance turn 1 to even get in range. The design paradigm here is that boyz are cheap throwaway shooting units that can inflict massive dmg if they can get into range. That just isn't the case right now though. So lets take ALL the buffs proposed for shoota boyz. Make them assault 3, give them 6+ range and give them -1AP. Now they are 24' range S4-1AP 3 shots. So now at 24' range they do 60 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg. That is roughly 60% MORE than the intercessors can do right now, but at 6' shorter range. Sounds broken right? ok, lets put that in perspective, that is 180pts of Orkz killing on average 2.5 Marine equivalent models OR 3.3 if they are in cover, that is roughly 50pts of intercessors dead or 33pts if in cover. A unit of 180pts of Intercessors shooting back would kill on average 4 Ork models or 36pts of Orkz right now. So they would be more deadly than the intercessors but would have little to no staying power. This would actually make them a realistic choice compared to what they currently are.
As far as the advance/shoot mechanic with -1 to hit. its a bit time consuming and wouldn't be very impactful, but if you teamed it with re-writing the Evil Sunz rules to allow them to work on dakka gunz it would be useful and a solid ruleset teamed with a kulture.
I definitely disagree that the Boyz should have +1 attack. One of the problems with boyz is that they have a lot of melee damage output, and easy acces to offensive melee buffs from Goffs, Waagh, Weirdboyz, Warbosses etc. And in order to cost them appropriatley, in light of their potential damage output, they end up becoming slow moving glasscannons. It would be better, if more of the buffs were durability buffs and/or movement buffs.
Lootas and Tankbustas are even more affected by this. If they had lower damage output they could be costed more like burna boyz.
I agree with you in regards to the +1 attack for 10 or 20+ boyz. Dmg output wise Ork boyz are doing OK. 10 boyz in CC will average 5dmg to a Marine unit, thats 90pts inflicting roughly 50pts of dmg to a Marine unit, not bad. And as mentioned, they have easy access to dmg increasing buffs like warboss/weirdboy or going goff/waaaagh. A goff Boy in a Waaagh turn near a warboss ends up with 40 attacks, 40 hits (Hitting on 2s, 6s cause 2 hits), 26.6 wounds and 13.3dmg or 90pts of Ork boyz killing 133pts of Marines. I think the better buff would be to Leadership. Being within 6' of a warboss or Nobz unit is +1 leadership (This one can't stack with other warboss/nobz), 10+ models gain +1 LD, 15+ gain +2LD and 20+ gain +3LD. that might sound too good, but Boyz are LD7 with a Nob, So if you had a 30 blob near a warboss You would have +4 leadership, or leadership 11. If you lose 10 models you still basically fail morale, if you lose 8 models you have an average chance of failing morale. So its a buff in that you have to kill more than 4 orkz, but its not OP enough where boyz units become immune to morale.
Now with Lootas...absolutely disagree in the extreme! I've run the numbers many times but lets do it with the "Post nerf" Chickenwalkers, They lost core, and they went up 10ppm. A Chickenwalker is now 75pts, it puts out 6 shots, hitting on 2s (doctrina) so 5 hits, That works out to 1 hit per 15pts. A unit of Lootas is 85pts they get 8/12 shots for 2.6/4 hits they also get 3/5 shots from a bigshoota for 1/1.6 hits at S5. That works out to 1 Auto-cannon hit per 32/21pts The big shoota is...irrelevant. Even if you took out the 17pts for the spanner you HAVE to take its 26/17pts per hit. So still worse than the chickenwalker that has gone through 2 separate nerfs. Durability wise...holy crap, that chickenwalker is T6 6 wounds, has a 3+ save, and a built in 6+ invuln. Its also twice as fast as the Lootas with M10 and really doesn't worry about leadership. And here is the best part...NOBODY TAKES Auto-cannon CHICKENWALKERS! because they aren't good. 1 hit per 15pts with S7 -1AP 2dmg isn't considered competitive. Ad-mech players prefer the lascannon upgrade for 10pts which gives them 2 shots at S9 AP-3 D3+3dmg.
At the moment Lootas SHOULD BE priced at Burna prices, at 11ppm a unit of lootas would go to 21/13 points per hit. "Oh but Semper, what if they are freeboota and got +1 to hit, than they would be broken!" Not really. 11ppm Lootas if they hit on 4s would go to 4/6 hits which works out to 13/9.1 points per hit, so better than the chickenwalkers but as mentioned, those aren't considered competitive and more importantly, they are the definition of glass cannons since they are still walking around with a 6+ save. "Yeah but what if they were put in a trukk!" ok, good for them? you just artificially added 70pts to their unit price and didn't increase their dmg output in the slightest. All you have effectively done is make them more durable but cost more than twice as much.
Lol my painting is so far behind… there is just a lot of big models. I try to magnetize as well so the buggies are actually easier since they don’t need magnets.
gungo wrote: Lol my painting is so far behind… there is just a lot of big models. I try to magnetize as well so the buggies are actually easier since they don’t need magnets.
Wait till you start in a kill rig. You have ne felt pain until you start on that kit. So many ducking pieces… you will way duck even more times than in that Limp Bizkit song (« hot dog » I think)
gungo wrote: Lol my painting is so far behind… there is just a lot of big models. I try to magnetize as well so the buggies are actually easier since they don’t need magnets.
Wait till you start in a kill rig. You have ne felt pain until you start on that kit. So many ducking pieces… you will way duck even more times than in that Limp Bizkit song (« hot dog » I think)
While i picked up snagga box and killteam box and another 3x squig hogs… the Killrig and boss on squig and bunka got tossed in the just get me this stuff for Xmas pile. So I have to hold off til then. Which is fine I’m so far behind on painting…
The kommandos unit. Says for every 10 models I can take X weapon. Does that mean if I have a unit of 10 I could have a big shoota and a rokkit? Or only I can have 1? Or do I need 10 models and THEN any additional models can take X weapon?
Kommandos seem great otherwise, flexible weapons, the additional saves, and cheap weapons compared to other Boyz units.
It says “one of the following” so you have to pick one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have a question about melee. Imagine I take a model with 2 melee weapons for example my Nob on smasha squig, and I equip with Headwoppas Kill choppa. So how many attacks do I get from the nob (excluding the squig jawz and Ead smash)? And which melee profiles do I use to make each attack, do I make 4 with the kill choppa?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or if I take a regular Nob and swap the slugga for a big choppa, so he has a choppa and a big choppa. How many melee attacks is that and with which profile?
It says verbatum; (UK Dex)
For every 10 models this unit contains, 1 kommando's slugga and choppa can be replaced with 1 X.
It repeats that for every option available.
So by its wording, for every 10 models I can take 1 of each of those weapons, as the limitation is only on how many kommandos can take the weapon.
To paraphrase the entire section would read;
For every 10 models this unit contains, you can take 1; BS, BR... Etc...
In fact even the option for bomb squig and distract grot are for every 10 models, this unit can take. Which would mean then those are an either or choice?
I am ofc assuming it is the way you say, but it would have been easy to put those as a single option instead of fanning it out into ambiguity.
Mythic Miniatures wrote: So by its wording, for every 10 models I can take 1 of each of those weapons, as the limitation is only on how many kommandos can take the weapon.
I believe this is the intent, as GW often wants you to build them as per the box. The box shows them with all eight options that require them to have ten models as a prerequisite.
As you mentioned, it doesn't say that they can take one of the following, it says you can take each as long as you have ten models and one of those has a slugga and choppa to give up.
I have to give SemperMortis a shout out with regards to his Alphork list that he shared earlier. I ran an approximation of his army list and did very well with it, even after going 2nd. I was able to borderline table my CSM opponent by T2 who was running a World Eaters Khorne Berserker list supported by Dreadclaws and a Khorne Daemon detachment. My kommandos forward deployed far enough that even on T1 he was forced to basically just drop pod deploy his berserkers in his own deployment zone and unfortunately he rolled terribly even with rerolls and +1 to charge, meaning he couldn't get the drop on my kommandos. Only his Bloodthirster was able to clear one of my kommando units. My turn 1 I called a WAAAGH! and was able to get pretty much all the units I needed to get into combat and was able to wipe out all his berserker squads and BT, while leaving his Heldrake on one wound remaining. At this point, he was left with only his two CSMHQ's, 2 dreadclaws and a full unit of Bloodcrushers that deep struck and managed to charge a Trukk and explode it and charge again with a strat into my deffkoptas and MA Warboss, but was only able to kill the deffkoptas and left my MA Warboss with 3 wounds remaining (what a tanky boy!). At that point I had full board control and he knew I was going to countercharge him so he conceded. Definitely a fun alternative to Traffic Jam: The Army List.
It says verbatum; (UK Dex) For every 10 models this unit contains, 1 kommando's slugga and choppa can be replaced with 1 X.
It repeats that for every option available.
So by its wording, for every 10 models I can take 1 of each of those weapons, as the limitation is only on how many kommandos can take the weapon.
To paraphrase the entire section would read; For every 10 models this unit contains, you can take 1; BS, BR... Etc...
In fact even the option for bomb squig and distract grot are for every 10 models, this unit can take. Which would mean then those are an either or choice?
I am ofc assuming it is the way you say, but it would have been easy to put those as a single option instead of fanning it out into ambiguity.
This kind of wording is a bit confusing if you aren't used to reading codified text, but essentially it tells you that when you have at least 10 models, you are free to pick up to one of every special weapon.
Another way to look a it would be that every one of the 10 models in the box can be built either as slugga/choppa or with its special weapon.
The reason why they started wording it this way is because in previous editions there have always been arguments about commas, duplicate options, what "one" actually meant and whatnot. Now you get to make a decision for every bullet point on the datasheet. It's more difficult to understand like that in the first place, but there is no more room for interpretation.
Ok yep I can see that. I just wanted to make sure, because damn straight am I go a run some crazy mixed kommandos units! I checked against the wording of other units like lootas who have weapon choices; but my god, it's almost uniquely worded for every unit!
I must say the new style where you don't have to spend ages costing out wargear is pretty cool. Loving the simplicity of the costing. Where you just pick a boss and it's not a complex deep dive and analysis of weapon picks per price.
Also big shout out to all the regulars. Funny how even after like 5 years of not reading these Ork threads.... I still recognise most of y'all names
So, managed to get 2 games using the new speedwaagh. One against a cron list with a varity of stuff but with a heavy focus on destroyers. The other against a chaos knight and belakor list.
Stomped the crons, was stomped by the knights which matches what I was expecting honestly.
What are peeps building? I kinda lean heavily into the warbikers, just because it's so much fun to be able to run them. While a pair of wazbombs punch big holes in anything chunky.
Mate suggested perhaps running two detachments, but after you have a trike with Speedking what other worthwhile buffs are there to hand out to the army?
cody.d. wrote: So, managed to get 2 games using the new speedwaagh. One against a cron list with a varity of stuff but with a heavy focus on destroyers. The other against a chaos knight and belakor list.
Stomped the crons, was stomped by the knights which matches what I was expecting honestly.
What are peeps building? I kinda lean heavily into the warbikers, just because it's so much fun to be able to run them. While a pair of wazbombs punch big holes in anything chunky.
Mate suggested perhaps running two detachments, but after you have a trike with Speedking what other worthwhile buffs are there to hand out to the army?
I run a hybrid buggy alpha strike list that's double Outrider. 6x buggies (2 Rukkatrukks, 2 Scrapjets, 2 Snazzwagons), 3x minimum bikers, 2x minimum deffkoptas, 2x minimum stormboys, 2x trukkboys and 2x 10 man kommando blobs.
Defftrike is the warlord for speedwaaagh, and a BBK bikerboss is a missile to crack whatever really really needs to die.
It's generally a good amount of shooting and a good amount of melee punch, with the melee units dealing with what the shooting units can't/don't want to deal with and vice versa. The alpha strike hits really hard and moves really fast, but if I whiff the list is very fragile and doesn't like taking one on the chin back.
cody.d. wrote: So, managed to get 2 games using the new speedwaagh. One against a cron list with a varity of stuff but with a heavy focus on destroyers. The other against a chaos knight and belakor list.
Stomped the crons, was stomped by the knights which matches what I was expecting honestly.
What are peeps building? I kinda lean heavily into the warbikers, just because it's so much fun to be able to run them. While a pair of wazbombs punch big holes in anything chunky.
Mate suggested perhaps running two detachments, but after you have a trike with Speedking what other worthwhile buffs are there to hand out to the army?
i would have 2 squads of 9 warbikers at least, so i can use evil sunz, declare them to be able to advance and charge, so i would advance and move 20 inches, shoot, and then charge. I am a little unsure if one is allowed to do that though, as they dont get culture. but i would assume they still have evil sunz keyword, so it should work?
If it does work, that one group of 9 warbikers is gonna go to fething town. Shooting a million shots, use CP to get +1 str and -1ap extra will also really help out. Depending on how much CP you wanna burn you could also use that other mortal wounds charge thing.
cody.d. wrote: So, managed to get 2 games using the new speedwaagh. One against a cron list with a varity of stuff but with a heavy focus on destroyers. The other against a chaos knight and belakor list.
Stomped the crons, was stomped by the knights which matches what I was expecting honestly.
What are peeps building? I kinda lean heavily into the warbikers, just because it's so much fun to be able to run them. While a pair of wazbombs punch big holes in anything chunky.
Mate suggested perhaps running two detachments, but after you have a trike with Speedking what other worthwhile buffs are there to hand out to the army?
I run a hybrid buggy alpha strike list that's double Outrider. 6x buggies (2 Rukkatrukks, 2 Scrapjets, 2 Snazzwagons), 3x minimum bikers, 2x minimum deffkoptas, 2x minimum stormboys, 2x trukkboys and 2x 10 man kommando blobs.
Defftrike is the warlord for speedwaaagh, and a BBK bikerboss is a missile to crack whatever really really needs to die.
It's generally a good amount of shooting and a good amount of melee punch, with the melee units dealing with what the shooting units can't/don't want to deal with and vice versa. The alpha strike hits really hard and moves really fast, but if I whiff the list is very fragile and doesn't like taking one on the chin back.
I think he's talking about the army of renown. you cant use trukkboys and kommandos there. only speed freeks, aircrafts and wagons.
cody.d. wrote: So, managed to get 2 games using the new speedwaagh. One against a cron list with a varity of stuff but with a heavy focus on destroyers. The other against a chaos knight and belakor list.
Stomped the crons, was stomped by the knights which matches what I was expecting honestly.
What are peeps building? I kinda lean heavily into the warbikers, just because it's so much fun to be able to run them. While a pair of wazbombs punch big holes in anything chunky.
Mate suggested perhaps running two detachments, but after you have a trike with Speedking what other worthwhile buffs are there to hand out to the army?
Detachment 1 evil sun outrider
Warbike w killaklaw and fasts then yoos- adv and charge
2 max units of 9x warbikers
5x warbiker
5x deffkoptas (boomboys specialist +1ap) use crashing thru to destroy knights w 5 mortals on charge
Detachment 2 freebooter
Wartrike(warlord) freebooter banner, speedking- (shut down knights obj sec armigers)
2x boosta blasta (pyromaniacs)
2x scrapjets
3x squig buggies
1x Dakkajet w 2x shootas- benefits from +1 to hit freebooter
1x wazbom w 2x shootas-benefits from +1 to hit freebooter (use wazbom on knights)
Play the objective game vs knights w freebooter banner shutting down armigers and wazbom and deffkoptas doing as much damage to knights as possible… the mass str 6 ap2 Dakka might take out a few armigers or plink a few wounds off a knight, but anti tank is limited.. it’s more about durability w 7 buggies, 23x warbikers, wartrike and boss on bike, and 2 aircraft. Deffkoptas are kinda fragile but they hit hard in this list. Just remember in this list try to have scrapjets or squigbuggies finish off a unit so your wazbom/Dakkajet gets +1 to hit.
After the balance update I think knights, Tyranids, greyknights, drukari and even admech still are all going to be strong codexes.. which is good because we don’t need anymore focus on nerfing orks even though I think the points increase is still coming.
Apparently i was just recruited on to a very large tournement in my country. I was not meant to go but apparently they had a man down so ill be covering with my orks.
They dont use the updated new games workshop lists so if i wanted to i could slam down several scrapjets, but i only have 3 of those and no squig buggies. Its my first tournement so im damn excited! i do run 3 planes though, because they dont use the new rules (lists were submitted before the rules came out) so thats that. I kind of wish i had to use the new rules, but i also dont want to give myself a handicap when no one else is being given any. But i dont own a large quantity of scrapjets and squigbuggies.. So in either way it should be a fun event!
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
+ HQ [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts] +
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: Da Ded Shiny Shoota, Grot Oiler [5pts], Kustom Force Field [30pts], Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, getting back into the orkies and was wondering how this combat patrol list looks?
Spoiler:
Goffs
HQ - Mega Boss, Warlord, Brutal but Kunnin, Super Cybork Body
TROOPS
- 10x Boyz, Nob w/ Klaw, rest w/ choppas
- 10x Boyz, Nob w/ Bog Choppa, rest w/ choppas
ELITE
- 3x MANz w/ Klawz
HEAVY
- Deff Dread w/ Klaws
500 on the dot
Well I’m probably the least experienced player here but I do play patrol a lot. I personally wouldn’t be comfortable running your list against anything with good shooting as you risk being shot off the board before getting into melee. You would need very forgiving scenery or a strat like Teleporta.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, getting back into the orkies and was wondering how this combat patrol list looks?
Spoiler:
Goffs
HQ - Mega Boss, Warlord, Brutal but Kunnin, Super Cybork Body TROOPS - 10x Boyz, Nob w/ Klaw, rest w/ choppas - 10x Boyz, Nob w/ Bog Choppa, rest w/ choppas ELITE - 3x MANz w/ Klawz HEAVY - Deff Dread w/ Klaws
500 on the dot
Well I’m probably the least experienced player here but I do play patrol a lot. I personally wouldn’t be comfortable running your list against anything with good shooting as you risk being shot off the board before getting into melee. You would need very forgiving scenery or a strat like Teleporta.
I'd agree with that. Boyz aren't that great and you competely lack shooting. If there is an enemy shooting unit sitting in a place with great overview, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. In general, you should aim to keep boyz to a minimum in combat patrol games and have at least one or two units which have a chance of shooting a marine unit or dread dead (not necessarily in one round). Options for that would be most of the buggies, lootas, mek guns, koptas, flash gits or a SAG. Almost anything that's less than 200 for a unit and doesn't blow itself up when shooting works.
I ran a kill rig for the first time. I ran it as freebooterz. It wasn't supper killy, but it also did not die...which was a big deal towards the end of the game. I think going forward there is no reason not to give it "Tough as Nails" warlord trait. That seems borderline broken.
Does anyone know what to do with the Beasthead Discipline powers? In a buggy list it seems like I should just give in the MW powers and hope for the best.
Geemoney wrote: I ran a kill rig for the first time. I ran it as freebooterz. It wasn't supper killy, but it also did not die...which was a big deal towards the end of the game. I think going forward there is no reason not to give it "Tough as Nails" warlord trait. That seems borderline broken.
Does anyone know what to do with the Beasthead Discipline powers? In a buggy list it seems like I should just give in the MW powers and hope for the best.
you cant give it specific warlord traits. If you give it a warlord trait it will be given a specific one.
cody.d. wrote: So, managed to get 2 games using the new speedwaagh. One against a cron list with a varity of stuff but with a heavy focus on destroyers. The other against a chaos knight and belakor list.
Stomped the crons, was stomped by the knights which matches what I was expecting honestly.
What are peeps building? I kinda lean heavily into the warbikers, just because it's so much fun to be able to run them. While a pair of wazbombs punch big holes in anything chunky.
Mate suggested perhaps running two detachments, but after you have a trike with Speedking what other worthwhile buffs are there to hand out to the army?
Detachment 1 evil sun outrider
Warbike w killaklaw and fasts then yoos- adv and charge
2 max units of 9x warbikers
5x warbiker
5x deffkoptas (boomboys specialist +1ap) use crashing thru to destroy knights w 5 mortals on charge
Detachment 2 freebooter
Wartrike(warlord) freebooter banner, speedking- (shut down knights obj sec armigers)
2x boosta blasta (pyromaniacs)
2x scrapjets
3x squig buggies
1x Dakkajet w 2x shootas- benefits from +1 to hit freebooter
1x wazbom w 2x shootas-benefits from +1 to hit freebooter (use wazbom on knights)
Play the objective game vs knights w freebooter banner shutting down armigers and wazbom and deffkoptas doing as much damage to knights as possible… the mass str 6 ap2 Dakka might take out a few armigers or plink a few wounds off a knight, but anti tank is limited.. it’s more about durability w 7 buggies, 23x warbikers, wartrike and boss on bike, and 2 aircraft. Deffkoptas are kinda fragile but they hit hard in this list. Just remember in this list try to have scrapjets or squigbuggies finish off a unit so your wazbom/Dakkajet gets +1 to hit.
After the balance update I think knights, Tyranids, greyknights, drukari and even admech still are all going to be strong codexes.. which is good because we don’t need anymore focus on nerfing orks even though I think the points increase is still coming.
Oh, I forgot about the faster than youz trait. Yeah a full unit of bikers advancing, shooting and charging is rather awesome. Especially if you can manage to get a speedking in range for those extra re-rolls on a bucketload of dice. Though perhaps I'd have 2 small units of koptas to fill out that detachment. Leave more in the freebootaz detachment so you have more chance of giving those fliers that wonderful accuracy boost.
I don't think I had any issues killing anything but the demon prince himself, the negative modifiers he passively puts out makes anything but the fliers struggle to land a solid hit.
On the plus side overall it was a fun game, lots of stupid things happening. I charged in some KBBs with ramming speed to try and finish off a knight, he managed to kill them both in overwatch with a buffed, exploding lightning gun. Used careen to try and knock off the last 3 wounds and got a one. He charged my speedking and died to overwatch in return. One of my flyers tried to careen as well, again, just one mortal short of killing it. Such a silly match.
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Geemoney wrote: I ran a kill rig for the first time. I ran it as freebooterz. It wasn't supper killy, but it also did not die...which was a big deal towards the end of the game. I think going forward there is no reason not to give it "Tough as Nails" warlord trait. That seems borderline broken.
Does anyone know what to do with the Beasthead Discipline powers? In a buggy list it seems like I should just give in the MW powers and hope for the best.
Yeah, the beasthead powers are mostly used for mortal wound output. Taking off a few wounds from support characters as well. I suppose Roar of Mork could be a niche power too. Giving -1 LD within 18" could be the tipping point for some units passing or failing morale.
Geemoney wrote: I ran a kill rig for the first time. I ran it as freebooterz. It wasn't supper killy, but it also did not die...which was a big deal towards the end of the game. I think going forward there is no reason not to give it "Tough as Nails" warlord trait. That seems borderline broken.
Does anyone know what to do with the Beasthead Discipline powers? In a buggy list it seems like I should just give in the MW powers and hope for the best.
you cant give it specific warlord traits. If you give it a warlord trait it will be given a specific one.
This. The only warlord trait the kill rig can have is beast gob, which is both fairly useless and only affects nearby squighogs, smasha squigs and squigosaurs - not the rig itself.
Grimskul wrote: I have to give SemperMortis a shout out with regards to his Alphork list that he shared earlier. I ran an approximation of his army list and did very well with it, even after going 2nd. I was able to borderline table my CSM opponent by T2 who was running a World Eaters Khorne Berserker list supported by Dreadclaws and a Khorne Daemon detachment. My kommandos forward deployed far enough that even on T1 he was forced to basically just drop pod deploy his berserkers in his own deployment zone and unfortunately he rolled terribly even with rerolls and +1 to charge, meaning he couldn't get the drop on my kommandos. Only his Bloodthirster was able to clear one of my kommando units. My turn 1 I called a WAAAGH! and was able to get pretty much all the units I needed to get into combat and was able to wipe out all his berserker squads and BT, while leaving his Heldrake on one wound remaining. At this point, he was left with only his two CSMHQ's, 2 dreadclaws and a full unit of Bloodcrushers that deep struck and managed to charge a Trukk and explode it and charge again with a strat into my deffkoptas and MA Warboss, but was only able to kill the deffkoptas and left my MA Warboss with 3 wounds remaining (what a tanky boy!). At that point I had full board control and he knew I was going to countercharge him so he conceded. Definitely a fun alternative to Traffic Jam: The Army List.
Appreciate it Grim and I am glad you enjoyed the Alphork strike Shenanigans It's still undefeated for me and I am going to a larger tournament next week so hopefully the trend continues
Played against a Buggy spam list this weekend and my opponent was absolutely floored at how quickly his models evaporated in the face of the alphork strike. Very memorable moment, I managed to get my Koptas into his face turn 1, launched a rokkit barrage which popped 2 buggies in a squad and then they bum rushed a trio of scrapjetz after he had wasted his overwatch shooting a unit of trukkboyz to basically no effect. 36 Attacks hitting on 3s with exploding 5s (Goff Strat and buffed with Warpath) had me end with 44 hits, 26 wounds and popped 2 of them. He just sat there stunned at the fact that Deffkoptas get 12 attacks EACH in CC during a WAAAGH! and with warpath. My Kommandos came in and smoke checked another pair of Buggy units and gutted one of them entirely with the bomb squig and Tankbusta strat 1 CP to do 2D3 mortals is worth it! Turn 2 started up and he was basically done, all he had left was 3 rukkatrukkz, his pair of planes and his warboss. He attempted to kill the koptas but failed to do more than killing 1, his Dakkajetz each tried taking out a kommando unit but even with 42 shots they failed to kill a unit thanks to not proc'ing Freeboota in time and I had -1 to hit thanks to some cover so in the end he managed to plink 2-3 kommandos each. At that point he conceded defeat to my Alphork strike list and told me that he may consider taking that to the next GT he goes to
You cant cast warpath on Deffkoptas. They can only be cast on characters or cores.
You essentially over buffed your deffkoptas by accident. Its an easy over sight, like the "Da jump" changes, but.. yea kind of a big thing here as its the difference between 3 hit rolls per model. Ive learned recently that if it sounds too good, theres a decent chance ive misread the rules.
Yeah, I think the only way to get extra attacks on the koptas is either speedmob or the foot waagh. Which sadly are mutually exclusive. Cause 5 base attacks on koptas would be a funny thing to dump on the enemy.
sure. you can get it from a normal waaagh, a great waaagh from ghaz, and i believe... maybe the army of renown? I cant fully remember the last one, but one definitely cant cast warpath on them.
Semper, are you upgrading your triple patrol list with the new bloodaxe Strats/clan in that tournament? There seemed to be some decent stuff in the bloodaxe codex for it.
I mean without the speedwaagh guy you defeated having enough aircraft to block your assault freebooter buggies have a hard time when they are locked in combat. I mean he should have still used 2 to a pretty good effect of making g your charges longer and harder but it’s no longer easy to block off all paths to assault.
I honestly think orks have 3 decent competitive lists…
Freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike-now with other buggies- (this list was taken down a bit)
Army of renown bike/buggy spam- (looks strongest but has its own issues with missions)
And the triple patrol rush assault- (fun and strong but might have issues with certain lists, knight freeblade lists, greyknights, and other strong assault focus lists.. drukari?
gungo wrote: Semper, are you upgrading your triple patrol list with the new bloodaxe Strats/clan in that tournament? There seemed to be some decent stuff in the bloodaxe codex for it.
I mean without the speedwaagh guy you defeated having enough aircraft to block your assault freebooter buggies have a hard time when they are locked in combat. I mean he should have still used 2 to a pretty good effect of making g your charges longer and harder but it’s no longer easy to block off all paths to assault.
I honestly think orks have 3 decent competitive lists…
Freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike-now with other buggies- (this list was taken down a bit)
Army of renown bike/buggy spam- (looks strongest but has its own issues with missions)
And the triple patrol rush assault- (fun and strong but might have issues with certain lists, knight freeblade lists, greyknights, and other strong assault focus lists.. drukari?
Yeah, I think about sums up the majority of our competitive archetypes atm. Not bad at all, all things considered. Do hope they make some other units more viable within those archetypes or something towards our Walker units though. Stuff like lootas, tankbustas, flash gitz and Dred Mob really fall behind compared to some of our other stuff in the army.
gungo wrote: Semper, are you upgrading your triple patrol list with the new bloodaxe Strats/clan in that tournament? There seemed to be some decent stuff in the bloodaxe codex for it.
I mean without the speedwaagh guy you defeated having enough aircraft to block your assault freebooter buggies have a hard time when they are locked in combat. I mean he should have still used 2 to a pretty good effect of making g your charges longer and harder but it’s no longer easy to block off all paths to assault.
I honestly think orks have 3 decent competitive lists…
Freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike-now with other buggies- (this list was taken down a bit)
Army of renown bike/buggy spam- (looks strongest but has its own issues with missions)
And the triple patrol rush assault- (fun and strong but might have issues with certain lists, knight freeblade lists, greyknights, and other strong assault focus lists.. drukari?
Death guard and battle nuns, if played right, should also crush that triple patrol alphork rush list with ease.
IMODG solely depends on how long he can prevent them from moving midfield. Mortarion would probably be a disaster, but luckily he tends to not appear in top tier lists.
However, Semper doesn't seem to meet any serious DG opponents, so we don't really know for sure.
Tiberius501 wrote: Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it. I like the look of your list, DoktaRoksta so I might give that a shot when I can pick up some squighogs.
You’re welcome, I like the squigs mainly because they are fast and give MW from the smasha. Any fast attack would be good though, bikes or coptas will work.
It’s more about balancing fast attack, melee and AT to allow you to deal with multiple threat types.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My strategy is to call the waaagh early and charge the squigs at the opponents most threatening shooting. Move the boyz and warboss towards objectives and then teleport the dread in turn 2 to cause mayhem
Im still not fully sold on lootas though even in a blood axe detatchment. Because usually, wouldnt you have lootas in a vehicle? So you cant use stratagems on them.
You would have to jump out, which will probably get you killed in the next round
Beardedragon wrote: Im still not fully sold on lootas though even in a blood axe detatchment. Because usually, wouldnt you have lootas in a vehicle? So you cant use stratagems on them.
You would have to jump out, which will probably get you killed in the next round
The extra protection that a trukk grants combined to the higher chances to be in dakka range to get max shots given by the trukk's movement are superior bonuses than being able to throw stratagems on the unit.
Beardedragon wrote: Im still not fully sold on lootas though even in a blood axe detatchment. Because usually, wouldnt you have lootas in a vehicle? So you cant use stratagems on them.
You would have to jump out, which will probably get you killed in the next round
The extra protection that a trukk grants combined to the higher chances to be in dakka range to get max shots given by the trukk's movement are superior bonuses than being able to throw stratagems on the unit.
sure but that would mean lootas benefit from freebootas or bad moon more than they benefit from blood axes. Because that stratagem is what makes them interesting but you lose them the next round because they arent protected.
I can see a semi use maybe for freebootas lootas driving around hitting on 4s, but im unsure how im meant to play the lootas if they cant be in vehicles to get the full reroll against vehicles.
Edit: well i guess i can see lootas in a blood axes detatchment but one has to be a bit clever about it
Jidmah wrote: Lootas have already been in a list placing second at a GT
Huh, must have missed that one! Fair point and I'm pleasantly surprised. I do feel Lootas could go down a smidge at the very least though points wise, maybe 2 points? Definitely not at the top of the list that needs points revision though.
Jidmah wrote: IMO lootas are just what shoota boyz should be. They definitely could use a point drop though.
Ain't that the truth? Shoota Boyz are in a really rough spot right now, mass S4 AP0 shooting with no gimmicks generally ain't that great this edition.
Shoota Boyz either need a points drop, or the base Shoota needs to really chuck out a boatload of shots to justify the cost.
I would even consider Shoota Boyz as vaguely niche viable if they got the old DDD rule. I'd consider the same for lootaz as well. If it makes sense for any unit to have a rule for vomiting out loads of bullets it's shootas and lootas.
Afrodactyl wrote: Shoota Boyz either need a points drop, or the base Shoota needs to really chuck out a boatload of shots to justify the cost.
I would even consider Shoota Boyz as vaguely niche viable if they got the old DDD rule. I'd consider the same for lootaz as well. If it makes sense for any unit to have a rule for vomiting out loads of bullets it's shootas and lootas.
The one thing I notice about DDD during my recent games is how little I miss it
In any case, a 16.66% increase isn't going to have a big impact on either unit. Like I said a few pages back, I don't think there is an easy way to fix shoota boyz. Units like them currently just don't have a place in the game - just look at tacticals, CSM, plague marines, dire avengers and so on. For a troops unit to be played, it either has to be cheap and durable, or fast/infiltration, or super-killy. Shoota boyz are none of those.
Only reason i run shoota boyz at all is because i play badmoonz, the 6's to wound causing AP1 at least makes some wounds go through.
Theyre camping in cover with 2 rokkits anyway (nob has a kombi rokkit). 30" rokkits with potential AP3 has been rather amusing for me lol
Shoota boyz could double their current output, I would go so far as to guess even then nobody (or not that many players) would be playing them (dakka 4/6).
Am I Right ? I mean bad moons for the range, or freebootas for the +1 to hit, in both cases the issues remain (volkite contemptors or other mass S6 shred them, 9 ppm, so on and so forth).
Who here on the dakka forum would play them with dakka 4/6 ? This deserves a poll
If shoota boys could shoot and adv without penalty I mean there is some justification to take them over choppa boys… If they also simply changed ork biker to ork core in speedwaagh That would mean that shootas would be better in a speeddwaagh and choppas better in a regular waaagh.
In the proposed rules form, one of the things I suggested was creating an alternate profile for shoota boyz altogether (both slugga and shoota boyz go down to 8ppm):
Shoota boyz would have BS4+ base, but 1 base attack. For units of 11+ or more, Shoota boyz get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons.
Funnily enough, the first response I got was asking if that wouldn't be broken lol. Goes to show how little people understand how Ork units work.
First off, holy crap! I haven't used weirdboyz this edition much, but the new CORE rules are just ....stupid. What the hell is the point with taking the damn weirdboy if you can't even buff the units you want to Oh well, thanks for pointing that one out guys.
Jidmah wrote: IMODG solely depends on how long he can prevent them from moving midfield. Mortarion would probably be a disaster, but luckily he tends to not appear in top tier lists.
However, Semper doesn't seem to meet any serious DG opponents, so we don't really know for sure.
I have 2 DG players of skill in my area who somewhat regularly attend GTs but are fairly active in the local meta. Sadly I've only faced off with 1 of them, 1 time and he brought a non-competitive list. That game though ended in a massive ork victory with him conceding turn 2. The biggest shenanigans from DG i have yet to face, mortarion does not worry me in the slightest. Hes 1/4th of an army. You can either ignore him and target everything else, or you can go balls to the wall and hit him with all the rokkitz/KMK mek gunz and bum rush with a unit or 3 of CC threats.
Ironically, the biggest DG Threats from what I have seen actually tend to work least against Alphork strike. Hitting my Forward deployed Kommandos with Plague weapons is absolutely fine by me. A T5 model with either 3+ armor or 4+ and -1 to hit all for 10pts is a must target first turn and a pair of plagueburst crawlers average 14 shots, 9.3 hits, 6.2 wounds and in cover that is only 4 dead Kommandos. That is 350pts of Heavy weapons plinking 40pts off Kommandos. And if they don't target them, those Kommandos run roughshod over almost anything else in the game thanks to their +1 to wound ability. Believe it or not, Death Shroud terminators and Kommandos trade equally in CC, whomever goes 1st is going to be the winner. The Deathshrouds absolutely do more dmg but they also cost a 30-40pts more, depending on how you kit those Kommandos out. Include the Squig and you could likely wipe the squad out in 1 turn.
gungo wrote: Semper, are you upgrading your triple patrol list with the new bloodaxe Strats/clan in that tournament? There seemed to be some decent stuff in the bloodaxe codex for it.
I mean without the speedwaagh guy you defeated having enough aircraft to block your assault freebooter buggies have a hard time when they are locked in combat. I mean he should have still used 2 to a pretty good effect of making g your charges longer and harder but it’s no longer easy to block off all paths to assault.
I honestly think orks have 3 decent competitive lists… Freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike-now with other buggies- (this list was taken down a bit) Army of renown bike/buggy spam- (looks strongest but has its own issues with missions) And the triple patrol rush assault- (fun and strong but might have issues with certain lists, knight freeblade lists, greyknights, and other strong assault focus lists.. drukari?
I'm torn, I don't have the book yet, I might not get it mind you, but there are some tricks in their that I liked. The problem is...its more a side/grade party trick then actually competitive. The biggest one I remember was the Stormboyz trick where you can deepstrike them turn 2 and have +2 to charge if you charged the unit with ground forces. It would be useful to protect blobs of stormboyz but at the end of the day, what is a stormboy? A more expensive boy. Without Goff kulture they are S4 and just 3 attacks (4 on the waaaagh). You can use a strat to make them almost as good as Goffs but thats it. Its a solid turn 2 beta strike, you could feasible put 60 stormboyz into reserve and drop them turn 2 with a 7' charge but its just not worth it and you would have a hard time getting all 20 into CC. If you reduce the size to 10 (where they should be) that means your using a kulture just to net 30 boyz into CC turn 2. I would rather just take the Trukkboyz who will be in CC turn 1.
As far as the aircraft blocking, he did use them for exactly that, but Kommandos can appear anywhere on the table and I try to deploy them last. My Trukkz are just insanely fast, 12' movement, 3' pile out, 5' movement, D6 advance and 2D6 charge...That is a max threat range of 38' and when you deploy them on the deployment line....you really aren't safe anywhere.
I also was remembering it wrong, he won that tournament.
I gotta be honest, I have no idea how he won anything with that list. 16 lootas and 4 spanners with KMBs in 2 trukkz is....garbage. Compare that to the aforementioned Mortarion. The 2 trukkz of lootas are actually MORE expensive, 500pts and which do you think is better/more impactful. So 1/4th of his list is 48 autocannon shots (Half range) hitting on 5s and 4 KMBs hitting on 5s, but not to short change them, they also get 6-10 S5 big shoota shots as well. that works out to 16 autocannon hits, 2.6 KMB hits and 2-3.3 big shoota hits a turn...totally OP. Fun fact, for about the same price you can take 6.6 Chickenwalkers post-nerf, they put out 33 Auto-cannon ...HITS a turn. And again...those chickenwalkers aren't even competitive.
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addnid wrote: Shoota boyz could double their current output, I would go so far as to guess even then nobody (or not that many players) would be playing them (dakka 4/6). Am I Right ? I mean bad moons for the range, or freebootas for the +1 to hit, in both cases the issues remain (volkite contemptors or other mass S6 shred them, 9 ppm, so on and so forth).
Who here on the dakka forum would play them with dakka 4/6 ? This deserves a poll
Assuming you got them all into dakka range, a unit of 10 would put out 20 S4 hits a turn. 90pts for 20 S4 hits isnt...bad, but its definitely not good. 10 Shoota boyz would get 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.33 dmg vs a Marine. They charge in and do 20 attacks, 13.3ish hits, 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg, grand total of 5.5dmg to a Marine profile. 10 Choppa boyz get 10 pistol shots, 3.3 hits, 1.6 wounds and 0.55dmg, they charge in and get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg. Works out to about the same dmg potential for them. Only problem is, you have to be in insanely close range to pull that trick off with the shoota boyz and the biggest problem...Choppa boyz AREN'T COMPETITIVE
So buffing them to double their current ROF would make them as good as a troops choice that we don't use except as MSU because of how bad it is. So I guess internally it would create the option of taking a useless shoota boyz unit instead of a useful trukk boyz unit. With Freeboota it does become a bit better, giving them 30 hits a turn, but still doesn't address their biggest problem, too expensive for little return and a big morale problem. Team that with the fact that to make them worth using strats on you want to take a unit of 20-30 and you realize its a waste of time/effort/resources.
Design paradigm. Shoota boyz were given shorter ranged guns compared to other factions because they wanted to get stuck into CC right away. Shoota boyz historically have always run towards CC and used their shootas to pepper/soften up targets. With the loss of Assault they lost this ability and either need it returned OR they need their weapons buffed to increase their range to at least 24. I would really like an option of 24' range shootas but they can shoot at up to 36, but they always hit on 6s regardless of modifiers, IE you can't buff them to 5+ ever. It would be fluffy/funny and somewhat useful. At flat 6 shots each they would be as good as the choppa boyz dmg wise. I think they could serve a purpose as an objective holder, the only problem being that if they are holding the objective they aren't likely to be in 12' range meaning they would lose 33% of their already limited dmg potential.
If you made them Dakka 4/6, increased range to 24 and made them BS4 but took away their extra attack I could see them being used in a freeboota list as an objective holding unit. 10 would put out 40 shots, 20 hits and the aforementioned 3.3dmg to a Marine unit. That isn't bad for a unit designed to camp an objective. In that freeboota list if you got them into half range and proc'd the kulture it would be 3+ to hit so 40 hits, 20 wounds and 6.6dmg to a Marine statline. Pretty damn good for a 90pt unit. At that point they could function as a suicide teleport/da jump unit. They get 1 turn of shooting, and likely get wiped out in return
Grimskul wrote: In the proposed rules form, one of the things I suggested was creating an alternate profile for shoota boyz altogether (both slugga and shoota boyz go down to 8ppm):
Shoota boyz would have BS4+ base, but 1 base attack. For units of 11+ or more, Shoota boyz get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons.
Funnily enough, the first response I got was asking if that wouldn't be broken lol. Goes to show how little people understand how Ork units work.
Unit size based bonuses to hit/wound seem to be phasing out, which I am totally ok with. I really didn't care for it as a general feature across horde armies because most horde armies have ways of playing with less infantry than what would trigger said bonuses, but you paid for it anyways.
SemperMortis wrote: First off, holy crap! I haven't used weirdboyz this edition much, but the new CORE rules are just ....stupid. What the hell is the point with taking the damn weirdboy if you can't even buff the units you want to Oh well, thanks for pointing that one out guys.
Jidmah wrote: IMODG solely depends on how long he can prevent them from moving midfield. Mortarion would probably be a disaster, but luckily he tends to not appear in top tier lists.
However, Semper doesn't seem to meet any serious DG opponents, so we don't really know for sure.
I have 2 DG players of skill in my area who somewhat regularly attend GTs but are fairly active in the local meta. Sadly I've only faced off with 1 of them, 1 time and he brought a non-competitive list. That game though ended in a massive ork victory with him conceding turn 2. The biggest shenanigans from DG i have yet to face, mortarion does not worry me in the slightest. Hes 1/4th of an army. You can either ignore him and target everything else, or you can go balls to the wall and hit him with all the rokkitz/KMK mek gunz and bum rush with a unit or 3 of CC threats.
Ironically, the biggest DG Threats from what I have seen actually tend to work least against Alphork strike. Hitting my Forward deployed Kommandos with Plague weapons is absolutely fine by me. A T5 model with either 3+ armor or 4+ and -1 to hit all for 10pts is a must target first turn and a pair of plagueburst crawlers average 14 shots, 9.3 hits, 6.2 wounds and in cover that is only 4 dead Kommandos. That is 350pts of Heavy weapons plinking 40pts off Kommandos. And if they don't target them, those Kommandos run roughshod over almost anything else in the game thanks to their +1 to wound ability. Believe it or not, Death Shroud terminators and Kommandos trade equally in CC, whomever goes 1st is going to be the winner. The Deathshrouds absolutely do more dmg but they also cost a 30-40pts more, depending on how you kit those Kommandos out. Include the Squig and you could likely wipe the squad out in 1 turn.
Sorry, but that's... not how DG work at all? Shooting mortars at kommandos? Kommadoz trading with deathshrouds? Didn't he also reserve his terminators? What on earth was that guy doing? Even as goff and with ram, grot and klaw, bridled carnage and the squig hitting, you just barely manage to take out three deathshrouds, and just the champion by itself attacks 10 times, hits 8.333 times, wounds and kills 6.481 kommadoz, causing you to auto-fail morale for another casualty and possibly attrition. He then gets to shoot his flamer gauntlet at their face before the next turn of fighting. And all that is assuming that they didn't overwatch for some reason. It's similar for blightlords, except here you have even less chance to wipe them and the opponent can double down on their casualties with stratagems and the flail.
As for the PBC, the KMK in your list are probably the most dangerous unit to any DG army and plague mortars are awesome at killing them. And if the entropy cannons can't line up shots, there are still koptas, warbikers and trukks for them to shoot. Why did he literally pick the worst possible unit in your entire list to target, especially one that can be wiped out with ease using melee and MW?
The only explanation I have for this is that the DG player either didn't know his army, was overwhelmed by your army or both.
Sorry, but that's... not how DG work at all? Shooting mortars at kommandos? Kommadoz trading with deathshrouds? Didn't he also reserve his terminators? What on earth was that guy doing?
Even as goff and with ram, grot and klaw, bridled carnage and the squig hitting, you just barely manage to take out three deathshrouds, and just the champion by itself attacks 10 times, hits 8.333 times, wounds and kills 6.481 kommadoz, causing you to auto-fail morale for another casualty and possibly attrition. He then gets to shoot his flamer gauntlet at their face before the next turn of fighting. And all that is assuming that they didn't overwatch for some reason. It's similar for blightlords, except here you have even less chance to wipe them and the opponent can double down on their casualties with stratagems and the flail.
As for the PBC, the KMK in your list are probably the most dangerous unit to any DG army and plague mortars are awesome at killing them. And if the entropy cannons can't line up shots, there are still koptas, warbikers and trukks for them to shoot. Why did he literally pick the worst possible unit in your entire list to target, especially one that can be wiped out with ease using melee and MW?
The only explanation I have for this is that the DG player either didn't know his army, was overwhelmed by your army or both.
Sorry for the confusion Jid, I was saying what "Can" happen rather than what did. In my game, he had 2 units of terminators (including shrouds) in reserve. He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2. As far as why you have to shoot Kommandos...because they can trade up with most units. yes, deathshrouds are absolutely better than Kommandos in CC, no question, they are also a lot more durable. BUT, a unit of Kommandos can on average wipe out 3 Deathshrouds in a single turn. Which means a 120ish point unit is taking out 150pts of enemies, that is a great return on investment for my Kommandos. So, the winner of that CC is whomever attacks first, and since my alpha strike list is so damn good at getting into CC first, its usually my Kommandos.
The trick to my list is pretty straight forward, massive target saturation and threat overload turn 1. DG start the game with a hefty chunk of their army off the board in reserve/teleport strike. My Alphork strike 100% deployed, I reliably get 3 units of Kommandos and 3 units of Trukkboyz into CC Turn 1. I 60-70% of the time am able to get a unit or 3 of warbikes into CC and about the same for my Deff Koptas. Turn 1 I am easily tying up or killing a huge swathe of the enemy, turn 2 my warbosses are in CC and at that point there isn't much the enemy can do except run around with the units they have left and try and cap objectives. But even that doesn't work well since the Mek gunz that lived are plinking way and the koptas/bikes are fast enough to catch almost anything.
SemperMortis wrote: He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.
He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.
SemperMortis wrote: He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.
He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.
SemperMortis wrote: He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.
He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.
Again apologies this was a friendly game, and I wanted experience of dealing with his deep strikers, so we agreed to keep playing and he deployed his units into the game from deep strike using the old 8th rules, of deploying only on his side.
Speedfreak is good to go…and it’s available as long the tournament allows it… sometimes they want the list a week or 2 early. The same with the balance adjustment. Might need 2 weeks to see real results in the wins
To chip in to the shoota boy discussion. I kinda think they should be given a combat knife of some sort, so you can give their melee swings AP1 without the extra attack. Essentially making them regular boys who just happen to be able to shoot a bit before charging in to finish off the wounded unit where an ork belongs, in combat. Works well with the 9inch dakka range and all.
SemperMortis wrote: He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.
He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.
Again apologies this was a friendly game, and I wanted experience of dealing with his deep strikers, so we agreed to keep playing and he deployed his units into the game from deep strike using the old 8th rules, of deploying only on his side.
The two good deathguard players I faced recently will wipe the floor with such an ork rush list, it will not go « either way », it will be a massacre. Now perhaps on certain maps such an ork army could win by playing to the mission, sending units early on objectives and somehow preventing deathguard units from scoring, but I seriously doubt that winning that way against a good (DG or other) player is even possible.
Again, the same goes for battle sisters, especially the valorous heart nuns who ignore ap1 and make ap2 become ap1
cody.d. wrote: To chip in to the shoota boy discussion. I kinda think they should be given a combat knife of some sort, so you can give their melee swings AP1 without the extra attack. Essentially making them regular boys who just happen to be able to shoot a bit before charging in to finish off the wounded unit where an ork belongs, in combat. Works well with the 9inch dakka range and all.
I feel like that potentially brings back in the issue of them being better than slugga boyz to some extent though, because they then get to maximize both shooting and follow up CC afterwards. I'd much rather they be good at shooting and slugga boyz are better at CC rather than shoota boyz being effectively better at both.
Yeah i prefer it when things are not capable of both melee and shooting unless theyre a character or big bad thing.
Shoota boyz need a shooting boost. I feel like rawAP or shots boost alone would just be stale and either not be enough or breach the tipping point of suddenly theyre waaaay better.
Issue being is thats probably all they'd get if anything. Theyre not gonna give some interesting new mechanic to shoota boyz (such as a compounding shot that gets better the more units of shootas hit the target)
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i prefer it when things are not capable of both melee and shooting unless theyre a character or big bad thing.
Shoota boyz need a shooting boost. I feel like rawAP or shots boost alone would just be stale and either not be enough or breach the tipping point of suddenly theyre waaaay better.
Issue being is thats probably all they'd get if anything. Theyre not gonna give some interesting new mechanic to shoota boyz (such as a compounding shot that gets better the more units of shootas hit the target)
Yeah, I feel like if they had the old dakkajet rule of getting +1 to hit if the entire unit shoots at the same target that would be a nice way of representing the sheer wall of bullets coming from the unit. I'm not sure what else we could to represent the volume of shots other than exploding 6's of some sort.
The two good deathguard players I faced recently will wipe the floor with such an ork rush list, it will not go « either way », it will be a massacre. Now perhaps on certain maps such an ork army could win by playing to the mission, sending units early on objectives and somehow preventing deathguard units from scoring, but I seriously doubt that winning that way against a good (DG or other) player is even possible.
Again, the same goes for battle sisters, especially the valorous heart nuns who ignore ap1 and make ap2 become ap1
Well please explain how. Turn 1 I get to choose when and where to be in CC, my army is ridiculously fast and has a massive CC presence, you can't deploy far enough back to get out of range of my threats. I have played against competitive SoB players and have tabled them with this very list. The last tourny I went to that included a SoB player the game was conceded turn 2. I had tied up all his threats and gutted them. I killed both the rhinos turn 1 and killed those inside (Retributor squads) before they could even return fire. The only struggle I had was with Celestine and Morvenn Vahl, but as soon as the warbosses showed up they disappeared under a plethora of Warboss/Kommandos/Trukkboy attacks. End of my turn 2 he had basically nothing left except a dominion squad that had been camping an objective out of LOS that I hadn't seen
I have a tourny coming up this Weekend and I know for a fact there will be 2 DG players and a SoB player there. If I face off with any of them i'll let you know how it goes. Usually these local tournies have 15-24 people and usually include at least 3-4 GT players. But by all means please help me out, tell me why DG lists would beat my Alphork strike list, i mean this entirely, I want to be as prepared as possible I openly admit I am not infallible
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i prefer it when things are not capable of both melee and shooting unless theyre a character or big bad thing.
Shoota boyz need a shooting boost. I feel like rawAP or shots boost alone would just be stale and either not be enough or breach the tipping point of suddenly theyre waaaay better.
Issue being is thats probably all they'd get if anything. Theyre not gonna give some interesting new mechanic to shoota boyz (such as a compounding shot that gets better the more units of shootas hit the target)
Yeah, I feel like if they had the old dakkajet rule of getting +1 to hit if the entire unit shoots at the same target that would be a nice way of representing the sheer wall of bullets coming from the unit. I'm not sure what else we could to represent the volume of shots other than exploding 6's of some sort.
Actually personally i'd be annoyed if they got that bonus lol I have a habit of running 2 rokkits per boy squad (nob with kombi + normal). They almost NEVER fire at the same target and would ruin such a rule lol
Problem with that is high volume of shots is even more magnetic to complaints than super reliable deadly things. Because when you roll hot even once it stands out like a sore thumb.
Case in point i just did a crusade game where i had 6 warbikers firing 60 shots. No outside buffs outside of the More Dakka strat to get said 60 shots. Caused 37 wounds against a marine squad. Not hits....wounds...i rolled THAT hot lol. And even though those bikers proceeded to get obliterated right after that was still a focal point of post-game talk.Not because i was lucky but because "they fire so many damn shots how do you survive against that!?" Im like....you do know that statistically i should have had less than half that right? lol
Despite the fact that the problem child was the lone squigbuggy with an innate AP3 big gun (crusade shenanigans) wiping a squad of marines per turn.
Vineheart01 wrote: Problem with that is high volume of shots is even more magnetic to complaints than super reliable deadly things.
Because when you roll hot even once it stands out like a sore thumb.
Case in point i just did a crusade game where i had 6 warbikers firing 60 shots. No outside buffs outside of the More Dakka strat to get said 60 shots.
Caused 37 wounds against a marine squad. Not hits....wounds...i rolled THAT hot lol. And even though those bikers proceeded to get obliterated right after that was still a focal point of post-game talk.Not because i was lucky but because "they fire so many damn shots how do you survive against that!?"
Im like....you do know that statistically i should have had less than half that right? lol
Yeah, that's the problem with a dice game compared to a video game. You have the potential to spike stats way higher than possible which means people only remember the outliers and not the times you rolled like 20 1's. I feel people are especially bad with this for Orks for some reason. I still have an Eldar, Tau and Sisters player that still have PTSD those few games where my SSAG one-shotted a flyer or some other unit they had. Makes me roll my eyes coming from armies that had strength D spam and scatbikes.
HA one friend of mine cried about the SSAG so much and he was one of those pricks in 7th that spammed as much D weapons as he could as eldar. Im like "you cannot complain man...."
1 model that tends to delete whatever it hits vs 30+ lol.....
Orks do seem to be a frequent victim of that sort of confirmation bias. Reminds me of convos in TF2 regarding Random Kritz, feels good on one side, not for the other.
Those same players probably wouldn't bat an eye when their units overperform, or even when the ork units underperform. Which they're fairly likely to do. But as ork players, we sorta just, get used to those sorta low points.
Also kinda reminds me of my most frequent opponent, plays crons and complains if a pair of Wazboms wipe out his destroyers. It's like. I've just used 480 points to kill about 300. I'm not exactly trading upwards. But having key units shot down usually feels meh.
Shoota boys don't really make sense at the moment. They can definitely go down one point, but as a buff I'd like them to gain AP-1 on 6s to wound as a built in ability, of course cumulative with Bad Moons bonus. Drukhari style.
Flat BS4+ for a standard non gretchin unit is not orky, and flat AP-1 could be too powerful. Not even big shootas or bikers have flat AP-1. Assault trait on shoota could be a bonus, so is the extra shot of the new profile though. I think I prefer dakka 3/2 than assault 2 to be honest, shoota boyz hitting on 6s never achieved anything.
Blackie wrote: Shoota boys don't really make sense at the moment. They can definitely go down one point, but as a buff I'd like them to gain AP-1 on 6s to wound as a built in ability, of course cumulative with Bad Moons bonus. Drukhari style.
Flat BS4+ for a standard non gretchin unit is not orky, and flat AP-1 could be too powerful. Not even big shootas or bikers have flat AP-1. Assault trait on shoota could be a bonus, so is the extra shot of the new profile though. I think I prefer dakka 3/2 than assault 2 to be honest, shoota boyz hitting on 6s never achieved anything.
To be fair, I think BS should have AP-1 baseline to begin with but I guess that's besides the point. I could see 6's to wound making it gain -1AP. Though it would be interesting if we had a strat that increases the AP of either dakka weapons or shootas specifically, since there is fluff precedent in the past (5th ed, during Assault on Black Reach), where Warboss Zanzag was able to create supa shootas that could pierce through power armour, though not terminator armour.
Also, I'm not entirely sure we should be that averse to having BS4+ on some of our dedicated shooty units. We basically get work-arounds anyways built into the rules (periscopes, targeting squigs) and Flash Gitz are a demonstration that some Orks do just aim. I mean, prior to the our 5th ed codex, I believe we had BS4+ as our base shooting stat. If need be, we can up the cost accordingly, but it does solve some of the issues of us rolling ineffectual 6's to hit in the cases of all the -1 to hit mods being thrown around nowadays.
cody.d. wrote: Orks do seem to be a frequent victim of that sort of confirmation bias. Reminds me of convos in TF2 regarding Random Kritz, feels good on one side, not for the other.
Those same players probably wouldn't bat an eye when their units overperform, or even when the ork units underperform. Which they're fairly likely to do. But as ork players, we sorta just, get used to those sorta low points.
Also kinda reminds me of my most frequent opponent, plays crons and complains if a pair of Wazboms wipe out his destroyers. It's like. I've just used 480 points to kill about 300. I'm not exactly trading upwards. But having key units shot down usually feels meh.
A lot of popular meta players either don’t play orks or just don’t like buggy spam list playstyle. So there is a lot of hate for it… the semi good news is even art of wars list rankings now have orks as the 5-6th best list and no longer in thier nerf it category… unfortunately I think it’s still to late and GW is going to increase points on ork lists.
Vineheart01 wrote: Problem with that is high volume of shots is even more magnetic to complaints than super reliable deadly things.
Because when you roll hot even once it stands out like a sore thumb.
Case in point i just did a crusade game where i had 6 warbikers firing 60 shots. No outside buffs outside of the More Dakka strat to get said 60 shots.
Caused 37 wounds against a marine squad. Not hits....wounds...i rolled THAT hot lol. And even though those bikers proceeded to get obliterated right after that was still a focal point of post-game talk.Not because i was lucky but because "they fire so many damn shots how do you survive against that!?"
Im like....you do know that statistically i should have had less than half that right? lol
Despite the fact that the problem child was the lone squigbuggy with an innate AP3 big gun (crusade shenanigans) wiping a squad of marines per turn.
Yup, I was fairly active in 7th, god help me but that was a terrible edition for orkz! I played in a tournament where my 2nd game was against a TFG meta Eldar player who brought 2 Wraithknights, 3 squads of scatbikes and some other shenanigans. Turn 1 my SAG Big Mek rolled a pie plate, no scatter, and 1 shotted a Wraithknight and half a squad of Scatbikes, when it scattered it went onto another unit of scat bikes. The guy flipped gak and screamed for the rest of day that SAG is cheating/broken/OP and could not be calmed down even after I showed him how terrible the SAG usually is. Same guy has never played against my orkz since and never apologized for being a canoe of feminine care product In 8th people complained about the SSAG and the Lootas. 1 guy who is tagged somewhere in my sig line *cough also went off on a rant that Squig buggies and Stompas in 8th were OP/Broken. We never are allowed to have anything without someone complaining.
Blackie wrote: Shoota boys don't really make sense at the moment. They can definitely go down one point, but as a buff I'd like them to gain AP-1 on 6s to wound as a built in ability, of course cumulative with Bad Moons bonus. Drukhari style.
Flat BS4+ for a standard non gretchin unit is not orky, and flat AP-1 could be too powerful. Not even big shootas or bikers have flat AP-1. Assault trait on shoota could be a bonus, so is the extra shot of the new profile though. I think I prefer dakka 3/2 than assault 2 to be honest, shoota boyz hitting on 6s never achieved anything.
Gotta disagree Blackie. A Heavy Bolter is a 10pt upgrade for most armies right now. On a Marine it works out to 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.33dmg vs a Marine statline. A Big shoota is currently 5pts, If you take 2 of them and get in half range its 10 shots, 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds and 0.74dmg to a Marine. To put it another way, to guarantee 1 dead Marine per turn you would need 6 Big shootas all within half range or 30pts of upgrades. To guarantee 1 dead Marine with Heavy bolters you need less than 2, or 20pts of upgrades. If you made Big shootas AP-1 than 20pts of them would do 1.33dmg at max range and 2.2dmg at half range. So, balance wise, a big shoota SHOULD BE -1AP. The problem would then become freebootas speedwaaagh players bumping that to -2 for 2 turns . Because that works out to 20pts (4 big shootas) doing 4.4dmg a turn. But I hate to say it like this...too bad? Something has to happen because atm Big shootas are just god awful investments. Nobody takes them if they don't have to unless they are the cheapest possible required upgrade (Spannas).
As far as Shoota boyz. Here is the problem. 1: With 9' half range for dakka rules....you will almost NEVER be in dakka range, and on those rare occasions you are, you don't want to shoot your target because you don't do enough dmg to justify the loss of charge range and 2: 6s giving -1AP just isn't enough to make shootas worth a damn.
Going WAY back, Ork shoota boyz used to be 6ppm and Marines 15. You could take 2.5 shoota boyz per Marine. That worked out to 5 shoota shots per 1 Marine you needed 9 Shootaboyz to kill 1 Marine. 18 shots, 6 hits 3 wounds, 1 dead Marine. That was 54pts of Ork to kill 15pts of Marine...terrible but it was ok because they were ok in CC as well. Todays math it now takes 36 shots to kill 1 Marine, that is 12-18 Shoota boyz depending on dakkarange....likely 18. But it gets worse, because it used to be 2.5 Orkz per Marine, today its 2 Orkz per Marine. So it takes Twice as many boyz, and they are now 20% more expensive compared to their target. So its 162pts of Ork to kill 18pts of Marine. If you gave Shootas -1AP on 6s to wound the math goes to 1.66dmg from no AP shots and 0.5dmg from that 1 shot that became AP-1. So instead of Flat 2 dmg from 36 shots, its 2.16. Do you really think that would be enough to make Shoota boyz worth a damn? Even if you gave them that 1pt price cut?
Conversely, if you gave shootas -1AP all the time it would then still take 24 shots to kill 1 Marine, thats 8-12 boyz, and again with dakkarange its likely 12 most of the time. Lets say you got rid of the stupid Dakka rule and just made them assault 3. That would make it 8 Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine, thats 72pts killing 18, Definitely not good, but a hell of a lot better than what it is.
So if anything, Shoota boyz to be competitive need to be Assault 3 -1AP. Keep their current price tag, you just made shoota boyz relevant....kind of Bump them up further by allowing them to benefit from the Speed Waaagh and You now have a choice between the two for running waaaaghs. Shoota boyz could advance/shoot and charge in a turn OR they could shoot at -2AP for 2 turns.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Best way imo to make boyz comp is just slash em down to 6 points, 8 points if goffs.
Can’t buff em so might as well just make em amazing baseline.
Ironically, they still wouldn't be good. But they would be cheap enough that people may bring a Battalion instead of another type of detachment.
30 boyz would be 180pts again, kill 6 and you still lose 5 more to morale.
When they were T4 it took 3.6 bolter shots to kill 1 Ork. If you got peppered with 36 bolter shots you lost 10 Orkz, you were still basically fearless so you lost 0 boyz to morale. At 7ppm that would work out to 70pts dead last edition.
Now, at T5, 36 bolter shots kills 6.6 Boyz, you fail morale lose 1 more, down 7.6 and now you lose another 3.7 to morale. So you end up losing 11.3 Boyz even though they are more durable in terms of direct dmg. 11.3 Boyz at 6ppm is 67.8 So they would be about AS durable as T4 boyz at 7ppm. If you made goffs pay the 8pts, the math would go to 90.4pts of dead orkz, so significantly less durable than T4 boyz at 7ppm.
So yet again the problem goes back to the fact that Orkz are just about the only faction that suffers from Morale problems, and its getting a bit old to be honest.
I was thinking higher points for goffs cause of the whole strength and effective +1 to hit they have.
Maybe just revert back the entire core of the army, warboss is perma adv+charge, weirdboys get bonuses, and the kff is a 5++.
I think that combined with old style mob rule 6 point boyz would work.
I mean we are done til 10th. We may get a pt drop on boys at best but just as likely to see kommandos and stormboys get a point hike and Gw saying see boys are better infantry units now!!
Not that o disagree with you boys are bad and Gretchin are the worst 5pt unit in the game.
Frankly speaking, I'd much rather prefer they make boyz worth the 8-9 points they're worth versus slashing their points cost. I always liked it when mid-sized mobs were okay to bring and I don't like that bringing Green Tide was the only good way to bring boyz for quite a few editions. Having a nice middle ground is always good and buffing boyz to keep their numbers down also makes it easier for newer Ork players to start the faction.
Grimskul wrote: Frankly speaking, I'd much rather prefer they make boyz worth the 8-9 points they're worth versus slashing their points cost. I always liked it when mid-sized mobs were okay to bring and I don't like that bringing Green Tide was the only good way to bring boyz for quite a few editions. Having a nice middle ground is always good and buffing boyz to keep their numbers down also makes it easier for newer Ork players to start the faction.
Boyz are just cheap lads, if we start actually normalizing this high price we’re losing the identity of orks. I say push em back down to 6 with the current stats, then make a point upgrade to give em ‘ard armor if you want to make em more elite.
i'd gladly take the old 10ppm cost for 4+ armor these days. Even w/o T5.
4+ armor isnt that big of a deal anymore, most weapons hitting boyz are ap0/1 not 2/3. It sucked in the past because for whatever reason armor was all or nothing, and AP4 was unbelievably common. Also cover being +1 save means nothing for a 6+ armor unit, but quite a bit for a 4+
10ppm, T4 (leave Snaggas T5 but also 4+ armor, maybe bump 1ppm), ap1 choppas. Expensive enough you wouldnt want to totally spam them because they still dont hit all that hard but durable enough that a lot of them stick around longer.
Grimskul wrote: Frankly speaking, I'd much rather prefer they make boyz worth the 8-9 points they're worth versus slashing their points cost. I always liked it when mid-sized mobs were okay to bring and I don't like that bringing Green Tide was the only good way to bring boyz for quite a few editions. Having a nice middle ground is always good and buffing boyz to keep their numbers down also makes it easier for newer Ork players to start the faction.
Boyz are just cheap lads, if we start actually normalizing this high price we’re losing the identity of orks. I say push em back down to 6 with the current stats, then make a point upgrade to give em ‘ard armor if you want to make em more elite.
I'd argue that Semper's alphork list is still very much within the iconic identity of orks that is fielding a crap ton of green lads rushing towards the enemy - despite him paying at least 10 ppm for each pair of green fists.
If boyz had something unique that would allow them to compete with kommadoz or burnas, paying 10 points for each of them would not be an issue.
I'd argue that Semper's alphork list is still very much within the iconic identity of orks that is fielding a crap ton of green lads rushing towards the enemy - despite him paying at least 10 ppm for each pair of green fists.
If boyz had something unique that would allow them to compete with kommadoz or burnas, paying 10 points for each of them would not be an issue.
Id agree with that argument. I run 60 infantry in the form of 30 kommandos and 30 Boyz, I had run 30 stormboyz as well but i've switched them out because they tended to die to easily.
I think Boyz should get a 5+ save since they are now doomed to have bad morale likely until 10th edition. I would love to see Trukk boyz get moved from a specialist detachment to a normal ability with trukkz for boyz. If I had goff Trukk boyz I would be so happy lol. In more than 1 game that extra pip of strength and exploding 6s could have been massive help. Keep in mind, that alphork list is still undefeated. Fingers crossed for this weekend, should be a hard contest
I mean it reallly would not have been an issue of specialist mobs were like the army of renown and only exchanged kultur not the klan keyword. That would provide a bit more synergy to trukk boys And all specialists.
Killa kanz being used together with buggies, are you telling me the hammer and anvil archetype is actually a competitive thing now? (or at least usable)
Would be psyched if half dreadmob/half buggies is actually playable
If you use killa kanz in freebootas, id say putting killa reputation on your big mek is a good idea, to get +1 leadership for your killa kanz. and i guess also if you run buggies in 3s, then killa reputation is, again, good.
Surprised to see waagh banner and killakans moving up… I’m still going with this is a 1 off not norm.
Killrigs about time they made a showing. Still think 2x are the sweet spot supporting buggies but we will see.
I hope beastsnagga and squig riders stay competitive I would really like some variety for orks.
1) freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike
2) army of renown speedmob bike, deffkopta buggy spam
3) triple patrol trukkboy, kommando, stormboy rush
4) beastsnagga Killrig/squigrider rush list
That’s what I hope ork meta options to be, but I wouldn’t say no if killakans somehow make it up there…
I play with Speef Freek Speed Mob (of Speedy Speed? Who the hell created this name? Sgt. Detritus in cooperation with Leonardo da Quirm?).
1. Well, the number of units you can choose is very limited because….
2. Obviously, rules were written before Dataslate. Due the “1unit of each buggies” rule, due the fact that Wagons are utterly useless without infantry and due the “max 2 aircarft” rule, there is really a small variety of what can be built. I don' t complain, I just inform. AoR have to be applied to the whole army, not just one detachement! So it will be always something like:
2 detachements, warboss on warbike and wartrike (one HQ supports the charge, second the artilery park in the back), 3x3deffkoptas, 3x4 warbikers, 2 jets, 3-4 units of buggies. That is it.
3. Morale is the main issue - bikers, koptas suffer the most.
4. Freebota clan is one option. Killa reputation (+1 to morale) helps significantly. However just 6” aura… With Badskull banner creates pretty obvious adepts for the choosen clan.
5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.
However, the significant drawback of ES scenario is that such furious charge hits like a wet noodle. Wartrike is week and due the Morale, you can take max about 4 warbikers in a squad = something like 4-5 dead Necron Warriors / scitary.
6. Strategems are interesting. Most of the ork strategems in this new book is interesting. However, not game breaking.
7. Take more Koptas or Bikers will push the list to very powerfull level pretty fast. However - MORALE!
8. Kustom Job on one model only makes sence. Kustom job on ONE MODEL UNIT only definitely do not. It wrecks the whole point of Kustom Jobz.
CONCLUSION:
It is exciting but I'm not sure how sucessfull this will be…
5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.
Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?
5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.
Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?
Good point. It is just for one another CORE unit. Not for the trike. So another con.
5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.
Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?
Good point. It is just for one another CORE unit. Not for the trike. So another con.
The lack of adv/charge options is very disappointing. However, even a 16" move puts you in a decent spot to t1 charge with ramming speed, if you really wanted to.
5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.
Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?
Faster Than Yooz gives an ES core unit within 6 advance and charge.
5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.
Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?
Faster Than Yooz gives an ES core unit within 6 advance and charge.
Right, but a trike isn't core. Only the bikes are.
Speedmob is strong morale is negliable for most of the list…
Warboss on bike, wartrike, aircraft, 2x buggies or less, 3x warbikers or 3x deffkoptas Don’t care.
3x buggies you shouldn’t really have except squigbuggies which hide out of sight, 5x warbikers… only care if you roll extremely poorly on morale.
5+ warbikers or 5x+ deffkoptas can mitigate loss with auto pass strat or outdasun strat. The yare important and strong in this list but should be limited to 2/1 units respectively.
Speed mob is insane durability and increased damage potential and I expect to see it hit the meta hard in the next 2 weeks. And some of the Strats are borderline Op. 6 mortal wounds on charge for deffkoptas will be cried about, out da sun is already called broken and expected to be nerfed… stacking specialist unit and speed mob is likely unintended and strong on deffkoptas… ap-4 rokkits during waaagh yes please. Fallback and shoot is a great recover strat that people literally took bloodaxes just for alone, reroll 1 to hit is incredibly strong on dakkajets and 2-3x kbb or 9x warbikers.
Honestly I don’t expect speed mob not to get nerfed. So I respectfully disagree. Out da sun alone i will bet money on gets faq’d. No way they let you go into reserves same turn you enter play from reserves, let alone allowing this to work in combat. This allows deffkoptas to shoot and never get hit.
5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.
Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?
Faster Than Yooz gives an ES core unit within 6 advance and charge.
Right, but a trike isn't core. Only the bikes are.
My mistake, I read it as meaning "how is the trike bestowing adv and charge onto something else" rather than actually taking the time to engage some brain cells
Tomsug wrote: I play with Speef Freek Speed Mob (of Speedy Speed? Who the hell created this name? Sgt. Detritus in cooperation with Leonardo da Quirm?).
The books seems to be referring to the army of renown mostly as "Speed Mob". Maybe we should do the same.
gungo wrote: Speedmob is strong morale is negliable for most of the list…
Warboss on bike, wartrike, aircraft, 2x buggies or less, 3x warbikers or 3x deffkoptas Don’t care.
3x buggies you shouldn’t really have except squigbuggies which hide out of sight, 5x warbikers… only care if you roll extremely poorly on morale.
5+ warbikers or 5x+ deffkoptas can mitigate loss with auto pass strat or outdasun strat. The yare important and strong in this list but should be limited to 2/1 units respectively.
Speed mob is insane durability and increased damage potential and I expect to see it hit the meta hard in the next 2 weeks. And some of the Strats are borderline Op. 6 mortal wounds on charge for deffkoptas will be cried about, out da sun is already called broken and expected to be nerfed… stacking specialist unit and speed mob is likely unintended and strong on deffkoptas… ap-4 rokkits during waaagh yes please. Fallback and shoot is a great recover strat that people literally took bloodaxes just for alone, reroll 1 to hit is incredibly strong on dakkajets and 2-3x kbb or 9x warbikers.
Honestly I don’t expect speed mob not to get nerfed. So I respectfully disagree. Out da sun alone i will bet money on gets faq’d. No way they let you go into reserves same turn you enter play from reserves, let alone allowing this to work in combat. This allows deffkoptas to shoot and never get hit.
I have a list already and I gonna give it a try in TTS in next few weeks. We ' ll see.
1.OUT O DA SUN is obviously wrong, it should be nerfed like other similar abilities “select one DK unit that was on the table on the beginning of the turn” and honestly I gonna play it like this already. Otherwise it' s a dickheadism.
But the rest?
2. More gitz over there - 1CP fallback and shoot. Good, but not gamebreaking
3. Blitza Dakka - 1 CP for rerroll of 1 to hit in shooting, if enemy within 12” - well, you don ' t want to get your buggies so close. So you can use it on the deffkoptas and than charge. That is good and seems to be too good just in co,bination with the rest (boomboyz deffkoptas..)
4. Chaaaarge - 2CP +1S and -1AP on warbikers charge - not bad, but as I said - about 3-5 warbikers do not benefit so much and for 2 CP it is too expensive imho. Interesting on unit of 3 scrapjets.
5. Crashin through - 1 CP for damage about 3MW in charge. Just shift the bikers and other buggies to scrapjet / KBB level and improves scrapjet / KBB for a nice bit. Good, but not broken.
All together, it can make a strong and dangerous mix. I agree. But I' m not sure, it will be better than improved Freeboota lists. And on this competition, just one of two similar builds takes the price.
But we' ll see. The new selection of strategems and synergies is definitely more interesting than the codex one.
First off crashing thru is 6mw on average on 6x deffkoptas NOT 3… that’s the broken part
Second blitza Dakka 12in or closer is EXACTLY where KBB want to be with thier 4d6 (lowest roll of 3 w pyromaniac specialist) 8in flamers and 18in for max shot Dakka gun and 12in pistol. OH and they get reroll 1 AND 2. So you can reroll 1 on your 4+ to hit Dakkajet during a speedwaagh for 3.5 extra hits and ~3 extra hits for 2x KBB (flamers already auto hit)
I don’t think charge is amazing…
And out da sun is twice the points of the ad mech version… I still think it will be faq so you can’t reserve drop and back to reserve same turn though… but it’s currently overpowered especially if you are using TO The Last secondary on 4-5x deffkoptas)
Beardedragon wrote: advancing 9 warbikers, shooting and charging with +1 str and 1 more extra AP does not sound like anything to sneeze at.
they also get an extra atk each in a speedmob.. it makes ork warbikers one of the best units in game for the points.
But my problem with charge is 2cp where str +1 only takes a regular non nob warbiker from str5 to str6… which is just an odd point where it rarely makes huge difference.. I mean you can give the nob a big choppa instead of PK so you save a few points and don’t get -1 to hit to move him from str7 to str 8 which is a much bigger difference. It’s a strat I’ll use if I can get all 9x warbikers in combat.
gungo wrote: First off crashing thru is 6mw on average on deffkoptas NOT 3… that’s the broken part
Second 12in or closer is EXACTLY where KBB want to be with thier 4d6 (lowest roll of 3 w pyromaniac specialist) 8in flamers. OH and they get reroll 1 AND 2.
I don’t think charge is amazing…
And out da sun is twice the points of the ad mech version… I still think it will be faq so you can’t reserve drop and back to reserve same turn though…
Crashing thru - due Morale, you take 3 koptas. It is 3 x 4+ x D3 = 3 MW. Take 6 koptas is theorycraft, not the real gameplan.
Second - reroll of 1 and 2 on HIT for KBB …. For autohitting flamers? Srsly? KBB get the extra rerols of 2 because his very dangerous weapons are autohitting, so it has a “disadventage” in compare to other buggies. Definitely not broken. It could be very good on 3 scrapjets or 5 koptas - but again - morale!
I fully plan to take 5 koptas since you can currently reserve turn 1 or hide them. And then you can move, and charge and do 5+ mortal wounds on charge plus 40 atks and then put them back in reserves turn 1 or turn 2 if you start in reserves turn 1… make them boomboys and during a speed Waagh they shoot ap-4 rokkits. Or keep them evil suns bad you can move shoot and move them back into hiding with drive by Dakka.
gungo wrote: I fully plan to take 5 koptas since you can currently reserve turn 1 or hide them. And then you can move, and charge and do 5+ mortal wounds on charge plus 40 atks and then put them back in reserves turn 1.
Yeah, you can do it, but the plan is built on totaly wrongly written rule, that will be corrected asap - as was corrected for other codexes in before. So if your gameplan is drop and fade, it will not survive the christmas I hope.
The correct plan is drop and kill. That is alright. But you can do it with just one unit via Ramming Speed. Otherwise it is 9” charge, that is hard to pass. And if you do that, you would have a serious trouble keep koptas alive in opponents turn.
If you lost 4 koptas, you have 33% chance to pass the morale. Not so good…. And one Kopta cost 50p
Automatically Appended Next Post: But Koptas are definitely masters of this list… very strong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw. There is one more detail. If you keep koptas on the table, you can advance and get them 5++.
But if you drop them, it is just a normal Move and you get just 6++.
gungo wrote: I fully plan to take 5 koptas since you can currently reserve turn 1 or hide them. And then you can move, and charge and do 5+ mortal wounds on charge plus 40 atks and then put them back in reserves turn 1.
Yeah, you can do it, but the plan is built on totaly wrongly written rule, that will be corrected asap - as was corrected for other codexes in before. So if your gameplan is drop and fade, it will not survive the christmas I hope.
The correct plan is drop and kill. That is alright. But you can do it with just one unit via Ramming Speed. Otherwise it is 9” charge, that is hard to pass. And if you do that, you would have a serious trouble keep koptas alive in opponents turn.
If you lost 4 koptas, you have 33% chance to pass the morale. Not so good…. And one Kopta cost 50p
Automatically Appended Next Post: But Koptas are definitely masters of this list… very strong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw. There is one more detail. If you keep koptas on the table, you can advance and get them 5++.
But if you drop them, it is just a normal Move and you get just 6++.
U can start hidden turn 1 as well even if they do fix it… and unless your opponent can hit you without seeing you. You can still use it turn 1…
Here is the secret sauce… if you leave them evil suns…. Even if you drop them this turn.. you can drive by Dakka them to move after you shoot and still get the 5++. So you can hide them, -1 to hit, 5++ invul, and toughness 5, 4+ sv, 4 wounds….few units with out of line of sight shooting can deal with that…
Again use insane bravery on your bike unit if your opponent focus fires them or breakin heads.
Here is the secret sauce… if you leave them evil suns…. Even if you drop them this turn.. you can drive by Dakka them to move after you shoot and still get the 5++.
gungo wrote: First off crashing thru is 6mw on average on deffkoptas NOT 3… that’s the broken part
Second 12in or closer is EXACTLY where KBB want to be with thier 4d6 (lowest roll of 3 w pyromaniac specialist) 8in flamers. OH and they get reroll 1 AND 2.
I don’t think charge is amazing… And out da sun is twice the points of the ad mech version… I still think it will be faq so you can’t reserve drop and back to reserve same turn though…
Crashing thru - due Morale, you take 3 koptas. It is 3 x 4+ x D3 = 3 MW. Take 6 koptas is theorycraft, not the real gameplan. Second - reroll of 1 and 2 on HIT for KBB …. For autohitting flamers? Srsly? KBB get the extra rerols of 2 because his very dangerous weapons are autohitting, so it has a “disadventage” in compare to other buggies. Definitely not broken. It could be very good on 3 scrapjets or 5 koptas - but again - morale!
Beardedragon wrote: advancing 9 warbikers, shooting and charging with +1 str and 1 more extra AP does not sound like anything to sneeze at.
they also get an extra atk each in a speedmob.. it makes ork warbikers one of the best units in game for the points.
Ld 7 = kill 4 and you have 50% chance to fail the morale. Sorry, I 'm pretty annoying with the morale issue, but guys, that is the point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, you can pay CP for autopass morale, but just for ONE unit in the whole army. So that is not the solution.
Solving the morale with the out o da sun? Not possible. It is “end of your turn”.
sure if you dont get to go first.
But if i ran a speedmob id run 2x 9 warbikers, which, mind you, is not a lot of points for how duable your unit is and how many wounds it is. I doubt id get hit so hard turn 1 that at least not one of them didnt have to take morale.
We're talking about a unit that has innate -1 to hit in ranged combat, that should get hit so hard during turn 1 that i have to take morale. I understand that is probably gonna happen to one group of 9 warbikers, but i highly doubt it will happen to 2. Im not saying it cant happen, im just saying, i dont think it will in general. So odds are, you will at least have 1 group of fresh if not semi fresh warbikers to advance shoot and charge. Even if you dont want to waste 2CP on them thats still great given the advance means they get within dakka range of their guns.
If you dont have to use charge stratagem to get +1 str then you can always use the 2CP to auto pass morale anyway.
Anyway… I was collecting AOBR koptas during last few years and have about 30 of them. Because… well…. No idea… just my guts told me, it' s fine to have more of them, because they looks cool and ahve great conversion potencial for another types of the models.
So, it is a time to paint them. Until now, just one is done and not completely “kopta”
Tomsug wrote: Anyway… I was collecting AOBR koptas during last few years and have about 30 of them. Because… well…. No idea… just my guts told me, it' s fine to have more of them, because they looks cool and ahve great conversion potencial for another types of the models.
So, it is a time to paint them. Until now, just one is done and not completely “kopta”
You went and made a mecha-shrieker from Tremors 2, that's brilliant.
But my problem with charge is 2cp where str +1 only takes a regular non nob warbiker from str5 to str6… which is just an odd point where it rarely makes huge difference..
I disagree, for an anti infantry unit like warbikers S6 instead of S5 is a great buff. Now they're better against T3 and T5, which are both really common. Only T4 targets would be unaffected. I think it's a nice option to have, although 2 CPs are really expensive for that kind of buff, for that price the entire unit should have get the bonus. Highly situational, but not really useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Anyway… I was collecting AOBR koptas during last few years and have about 30 of them. Because… well…. No idea… just my guts told me, it' s fine to have more of them, because they looks cool and ahve great conversion potencial for another types of the models.
So, it is a time to paint them. Until now, just one is done and not completely “kopta”
gungo wrote: First off crashing thru is 6mw on average on 6x deffkoptas NOT 3… that’s the broken part
And out da sun is twice the points of the ad mech version… I still think it will be faq so you can’t reserve drop and back to reserve same turn though… but it’s currently overpowered especially if you are using TO The Last secondary on 4-5x deffkoptas)
Sistas have the 20 pack with storm bolters that do 6 MW when buffed, so does ad mech with wrath of mars. Why on earth do you think crachin thru will get nerfed ? I am totally with you on out da sun though, it will get nerfed like other similar strats 100% (2 cp is becauyse we orks tend to pay more for strats, which compensates for our cheap units i guess, and i prefer cheap units to cheap strats myself heh heh)
Why are peole discussing strengh 6 warbikers ? I don't see how we can get them to strengh 6
It' s Bigboss on Robosaur. I gonna switch all the dyno/snakebite part of the ork army into the half-ork/half bender mecha-robo style army. Soon… like in next 3 years
While we are currently facing a meta shake-up from the emergency fix, few of it affects the stuff in the first post. Which means that I need to update it soon.
Since there have been plenty of complaints the last few times around, I will do what I do at work when building software, which is shifting the responsibility to the stakeholders.
The number of stars maps to the color on the rainbow table, which means:
Five stars - These are great and perform well as long as you include them in a coherent army. Four stars - These are great in the right army, but they will not work an army that does not support them. Three stars - These do what they are supposed to do, but aren't the most competitive options for their roles. Two stars - These do work in general but either cost too much for what they do or lock you out of bringing much better choices. One star - There is no point in bringing these, fielding them will actively reduce your chances of winning.
I also realized that having ratings for separate parts of clans is not well received, so I will only apply one rating to the whole clan now.
The poll will be running for 14 days, so if you are an ork player, please vote. If you are just an imperial agent with green paint smeared on your face, please don't (ogryns get a free pass). If enough people vote, I will post the results here and take them into account for the first post's rating table.
I'm also curious whether you think that this is a good way of doing it or not.
thats good to know because i havent had a gak ton of games with the new codex.
Well, I guess nobody knows all the units. Maybe.. except one creepy guy who tried to persuade me yeasterday that wahapedia and battlescribe are superfluous and our moanig about “wahapedia is the only place, where you can actually see the valid rules” is stupid because if you read the faq, you remember it and you don' t need any up-to-date data. He said, it is just for the lazy people…
No warboss on bike on the survey I’d rate it same as wartrike.
Funny originally I’d say bloodaxe was worse clan but it’s on par with most clans now w supplement. With freebooter probably being a 5* everyone else 4* with badmoons and snakebites on 3* being extremely situational use.
I think the original post on units is good with only issue is the jump up the big Mek w kff took. Warbikers ranking are justified now w speedmob. The limitations on aircraft and buggies don’t make them any less or more in rankings except shokk jump is probably only good as a single model unit. I think KBB will join scrapjets and squigbuggies as popular choices. Killrigs probably should go up too.
I probably should not have rated grot tanks or grot mega tanks ad I don’t have or play them.
gungo wrote: First off crashing thru is 6mw on average on 6x deffkoptas NOT 3… that’s the broken part
And out da sun is twice the points of the ad mech version… I still think it will be faq so you can’t reserve drop and back to reserve same turn though… but it’s currently overpowered especially if you are using TO The Last secondary on 4-5x deffkoptas)
Sistas have the 20 pack with storm bolters that do 6 MW when buffed, so does ad mech with wrath of mars. Why on earth do you think crachin thru will get nerfed ? I am totally with you on out da sun though, it will get nerfed like other similar strats 100% (2 cp is becauyse we orks tend to pay more for strats, which compensates for our cheap units i guess, and i prefer cheap units to cheap strats myself heh heh)
Why are peole discussing strengh 6 warbikers ? I don't see how we can get them to strengh 6
Because crashing thru is cheaper and easier to use. Wrath of mars requires 36 wound rolls to average 6 maximum mortal wounds for at best 2cp for any unit capable of doing it. Crashing thru is NOT capped at 6 mortals either. It averages 6 mortals but can maximum 18 mortal wounds!!! There really is no comparison half the cp cost for a much higher mw chance. I mean if they nerf it by capping it to 6mw and made it 1cp/2cp it would be the same. Honestly I think they forgot deffkoptas are vehicles and speedfreaks…
Also I don’t buy the screw you orks you pay double for the same strat nonsense.
There's a lot of competitive level in my store, majority of the players are top of the country. I'm not sure if I'll have enough movement with this. Maybe I change the 3 KBB for Dragstas so I do Engage easly. What do you think
Dakkajet x2 shootas
Wazbom x2 shootas, kff (Argument can be made for double wazbom)
Evilsun
Warboss on bike- killaklaw, faster then yoos
9x bikes- nob w bc
5x bikes- nob w bc
5x bikes- nob w bc
5x deffkoptas (boomboys or evilsuns if you want access to drive by Dakka)
8 buggies is incredibly durable but squads of 3 can be hard to maneuver.. except squigbuggies… shokk jump has a hard time with multiple models in unit jumping.
Banner shuts down obj secured so your bikes can steal the objective
I mean every army of renown list is very similar the choices are limited but at least most of them are our best units.. a few more warbikers or buggies is the only real difference. Even clan choice is pretty much useless since the only things you get from clan choice are clan specific warlord traits or relics… and the only unit that cares about kultur are aircraft (wagons are kinda useless w/o infantry to transport)
But Spec Mobs like Boomboyz or Pyromaniac can be used.
What he said We don’t have specialist detachments anymore since vigilus defiant… which technically is allowed still in some games. Narrative, open, matched, but Not tournament… I stopped using them regardless even though you can basically use them officially anywhere but in a tournament…
But Spec Mobs like Boomboyz or Pyromaniac can be used.
What he said We don’t have specialist detachments anymore since vigilus defiant… which technically is allowed still in some games. Narrative, open, matched, but Not tournament… I stopped using them regardless even though you can basically use them officially anywhere but in a tournament…
But specialist mobs are a GO!!!
Exactly. Except Speed Mob. Because Speed Mob is not a Mob. Speed Mob is an Army
I mean technically vigilus defiant and even worse saga of the beast are no longer used…. But I think GW pretends like those books are still valid in narrative, open and sometimes matched but the vast majority of the content has already been picked apart and some of it updated to the codex. I think the only reason they keep them valid is to pretend people who bought those books in mid-late 2020 didn’t waste thier money. I at least expect this campaign book to be valid for about ~3 years before 10th edition gets a release date.
Psychic awakening is dead. Vigilus is a different matter because it's mostly about narrative play and that doesn't really care about what is legal and what is not, as long as it works.
Orks are just weird like that if you want to be competitive. It’s always been that you need a billion boyz, a ton of battlewagons, mobs of nob bikers, walls of kans, batteries of mek gunz, and now battalions of buggies. Who knows what the nerfs we got will make the new thing to spam out.
Jidmah wrote: Psychic awakening is dead. Vigilus is a different matter because it's mostly about narrative play and that doesn't really care about what is legal and what is not, as long as it works.
Ya but GW keeps mentioning specialist detachments which should already be dead for matched… since they’ve moved into army of renown.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah makes me to count my orks. And guys, this is a problem. I have over 10k p of orks, almost 8000p them are fullpainted.
And I don ' t have enough models to build the list I want.
Non of the lists I want.
Simply… not enough dakka.
Is there a chance, it will be better anytime soon? Or do I simply need about 30k to have at least some dakka?
I got a ton too and I still don’t have enough warbikers to make a decent army of renown… I have 7 buggies but I don’t have 3 of every buggy I just proxy.. in tournaments that’s not really allowed. You got to make due with what you got.. if all you have is 1 of each buggy play with those.. if all you got is 9 warbikers play with those. If you got 3 trukks then play the triple patrol trukkboy, kommando, stormboy list.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah makes me to count my orks. And guys, this is a problem. I have over 10k p of orks, almost 8000p them are fullpainted.
And I don ' t have enough models to build the list I want.
Non of the lists I want.
Simply… not enough dakka.
Is there a chance, it will be better anytime soon? Or do I simply need about 30k to have at least some dakka?
Funny story, i made a comment in the local discord about the new xmas ork boxing being the usual assortment of random units instead of stuff that works together and i immediately got "YOU HAVE ENOUGH ORKS STOP B****ING" lol....
It's a random assortment but actually a decent starting point to build out from. Nothing feels too niche that the average Ork player would regret picking it up.
Should’ve either gone full speed freeks with the deffkilla, or go full classic stuff, a warboss, 2 meganobz kits for the option of 6, or 5 and a big mek, some boyz, and a battlewagon or somethin.
thats good to know because i havent had a gak ton of games with the new codex.
Well, I guess nobody knows all the units. Maybe.. except one creepy guy who tried to persuade me yeasterday that wahapedia and battlescribe are superfluous and our moanig about “wahapedia is the only place, where you can actually see the valid rules” is stupid because if you read the faq, you remember it and you don' t need any up-to-date data. He said, it is just for the lazy people…
It is best not to talk about Wahapedia so it stays under the radar
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: No warboss on bike on the survey I’d rate it same as wartrike.
Funny originally I’d say bloodaxe was worse clan but it’s on par with most clans now w supplement. With freebooter probably being a 5* everyone else 4* with badmoons and snakebites on 3* being extremely situational use.
I think the original post on units is good with only issue is the jump up the big Mek w kff took. Warbikers ranking are justified now w speedmob. The limitations on aircraft and buggies don’t make them any less or more in rankings except shokk jump is probably only good as a single model unit. I think KBB will join scrapjets and squigbuggies as popular choices. Killrigs probably should go up too.
I probably should not have rated grot tanks or grot mega tanks ad I don’t have or play them.
gungo wrote: First off crashing thru is 6mw on average on 6x deffkoptas NOT 3… that’s the broken part
And out da sun is twice the points of the ad mech version… I still think it will be faq so you can’t reserve drop and back to reserve same turn though… but it’s currently overpowered especially if you are using TO The Last secondary on 4-5x deffkoptas)
Sistas have the 20 pack with storm bolters that do 6 MW when buffed, so does ad mech with wrath of mars. Why on earth do you think crachin thru will get nerfed ? I am totally with you on out da sun though, it will get nerfed like other similar strats 100% (2 cp is becauyse we orks tend to pay more for strats, which compensates for our cheap units i guess, and i prefer cheap units to cheap strats myself heh heh)
Why are peole discussing strengh 6 warbikers ? I don't see how we can get them to strengh 6
Because crashing thru is cheaper and easier to use. Wrath of mars requires 36 wound rolls to average 6 maximum mortal wounds for at best 2cp for any unit capable of doing it. Crashing thru is NOT capped at 6 mortals either. It averages 6 mortals but can maximum 18 mortal wounds!!! There really is no comparison half the cp cost for a much higher mw chance. I mean if they nerf it by capping it to 6mw and made it 1cp/2cp it would be the same. Honestly I think they forgot deffkoptas are vehicles and speedfreaks…
Also I don’t buy the screw you orks you pay double for the same strat nonsense.
20-30 hits for ad mech is perfectly doable. And they won’t be trading their unit like we do (well when they fix the sunny side up strat anyway). I would say I like both strat the same. And we need a very restrictive build (speed mob) to use ours.
It’s wound rolls not hit rolls and only works on a 6 to wound…
You need 36 wound rolls to get 6 mortal wounds on avaerage that’s not easy even for ad mech. Plus it’s capped at 6 mortals total so you can waste a bunch of 6s if you roll well…
I mean the deffkoptas can throw out 18 mortals if you roll perfectly for half the CP… it’s really no comparison.
Saying you need speed mob is like saying you need mars.. the point we were talking about is crashing through on deffkoptas is pretty overpowered to similar abilities.. it’s not as broken as out da sun but crashing through is basically double the efficiency of anything comparable. Heck it’s a fair strat for 1cp on 2-3 buggies or 5-6 warbikers and that’s half as efficient as deffkoptas.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah makes me to count my orks. And guys, this is a problem. I have over 10k p of orks, almost 8000p them are fullpainted.
And I don ' t have enough models to build the list I want.
Non of the lists I want.
Simply… not enough dakka.
Is there a chance, it will be better anytime soon? Or do I simply need about 30k to have at least some dakka?
Hah, I don't even know how many points I have, and I for sure don't have enough space to get everything out of its boxes to count. I know I did pass 6k by the end of 5th, so go figure
When I got back in 8th I mostly stopped caring about fielding perfect cookie-cutters. For one chasing the FotM just give GW more leverage to force you into buying more when they axe the current competitive stuff. Second, playing more varied lists is more fun. Last, but not least, the gap in skill usually is big enough that I can beat the tar out of players chasing the FotM with my random assortment of gak
That said, I just barely manage to get 2k points of speed mob without resorting to legends (I actually have a biker pain boy and kff mek) or garbage nob bikers, and I need to field da boomer and most of my koptas to do so.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Funny story, i made a comment in the local discord about the new xmas ork boxing being the usual assortment of random units instead of stuff that works together and i immediately got "YOU HAVE ENOUGH ORKS STOP B****ING" lol....
Judging from the poll results so far, almost all of us own more orks than sane people should
Madjob wrote: It's a random assortment but actually a decent starting point to build out from. Nothing feels too niche that the average Ork player would regret picking it up.
Ehhhh, I would heavily disagree with that. For Orks, we aren't like marines where you have a reasonably functional army if you pick units at random. Orks really rely on skew or hyper-focused lists to perform even adequately in most environments, even if they aren't hypercompetitive. A convential combined arms approach for Orks is a set up for disaster and the box set is exactly that. The Deffkilla Wartrike will force the list into a Speedwaaagh when pretty much only the dakkajet can benefit meaningfully from it. You have Ork boyz and Nobz with no Trukk support to go with them, a random unit of grots that I guess works for backfield objective holding. The SAG Mek is pretty meh as far as fire support goes and will be far from enough to deal with any actual enemy vehicles that your army comes across.
A better composition would have been:
Ork Warboss on Foot (Grukk model)
2 Ork boyz kits
Dakkajet
2 Units of Mega Nobz (so you can build a KFFMA Big Mek with one of them)
2 Trukks
If they wanted to keep the Speed Freeks kind of format it should be:
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah makes me to count my orks. And guys, this is a problem. I have over 10k p of orks, almost 8000p them are fullpainted.
And I don ' t have enough models to build the list I want.
Non of the lists I want.
Simply… not enough dakka.
Is there a chance, it will be better anytime soon? Or do I simply need about 30k to have at least some dakka?
Funny story, i made a comment in the local discord about the new xmas ork boxing being the usual assortment of random units instead of stuff that works together and i immediately got "YOU HAVE ENOUGH ORKS STOP B****ING" lol....
That's how you know you got non-Orkses in the chat, proppa greenies know the WAAAGH! never stops growin!
addnid wrote: It is best not to talk about Wahapedia so it stays under the radar
They've already been contacted by GW's legal team, so I guess the cat is out of the bag.
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Madjob wrote: It's a random assortment but actually a decent starting point to build out from. Nothing feels too niche that the average Ork player would regret picking it up.
I'm with Grimskul here. Unless you want the new boyz or you don't own most of the models, you should steer clear of that box.
addnid wrote: It is best not to talk about Wahapedia so it stays under the radar
They've already been contacted by GW's legal team, so I guess the cat is out of the bag.
AFAIK, can GW even do anything? It's under a Russian website, so just like China, I don't think you can litigate IP since both countries basically don't give a flying fart.
addnid wrote: It is best not to talk about Wahapedia so it stays under the radar
They've already been contacted by GW's legal team, so I guess the cat is out of the bag.
AFAIK, can GW even do anything? It's under a Russian website, so just like China, I don't think you can litigate IP since both countries basically don't give a flying fart.
Well, they can still send him e-mails. Apparently he posted them on his patreon
AFAIK in UK there also is this odd law that they need to at least try to do something about their IP, otherwise other people can point to that case as precedent.
addnid wrote: It is best not to talk about Wahapedia so it stays under the radar
They've already been contacted by GW's legal team, so I guess the cat is out of the bag.
AFAIK, can GW even do anything? It's under a Russian website, so just like China, I don't think you can litigate IP since both countries basically don't give a flying fart.
Well, they can still send him e-mails. Apparently he posted them on his patreon
AFAIK in UK there also is this odd law that they need to at least try to do something about their IP, otherwise other people can point to that case as precedent.
Ah, gotcha, so you got to do the song and dance even if you know there might not be any real result. Makes sense.
IP law always felt like it was a pain in the arse to manage.
In any case, I'm glad at the very least that our Combat Patrol is significantly better than the Christmas offering box for Orks. I guess we still got the Red Gobbo on Bounca?
Yeah can't say i'm that impressed by the ork box. Most of the others feel more interesting. Ours is a bit all over the place.
You got the start of a goff horde with the boys and nobs, you got some speedfreak stuff with the wartrike and the flyer, a random shokk mek wedged in and some grots because why not.
I know it's just to shift... old? unwanted? underselling I guess, stock. But damn stick to a theme. A pair of nauts, dreads and kans maybe? A few different vehicles with some warbikers? A whole bunch of different infantry types.
gungo wrote: It’s wound rolls not hit rolls and only works on a 6 to wound…
You need 36 wound rolls to get 6 mortal wounds on avaerage that’s not easy even for ad mech. Plus it’s capped at 6 mortals total so you can waste a bunch of 6s if you roll well…
I mean the deffkoptas can throw out 18 mortals if you roll perfectly for half the CP… it’s really no comparison.
Saying you need speed mob is like saying you need mars.. the point we were talking about is crashing through on deffkoptas is pretty overpowered to similar abilities.. it’s not as broken as out da sun but crashing through is basically double the efficiency of anything comparable. Heck it’s a fair strat for 1cp on 2-3 buggies or 5-6 warbikers and that’s half as efficient as deffkoptas.
Hits = wound rolls, but yes crashing through is more powerful than wrath of mars, especially on Koptas. Koptas can hide then move 14 and then charge, so it’s really good. However I think speed mobs will have issues trading against cheap dangerous units, but we will only know after a couple tournament results I guess. I am giving the blood axe supplement a try for now, along with triple kill rigs
cody.d. wrote: Yeah can't say i'm that impressed by the ork box. Most of the others feel more interesting. Ours is a bit all over the place.
You got the start of a goff horde with the boys and nobs, you got some speedfreak stuff with the wartrike and the flyer, a random shokk mek wedged in and some grots because why not.
I know it's just to shift... old? unwanted? underselling I guess, stock. But damn stick to a theme. A pair of nauts, dreads and kans maybe? A few different vehicles with some warbikers? A whole bunch of different infantry types.
The worst part is that it comes with a dakkajet instead of a wazzbom... Same kit, but one less sprue.
Hah, I don't even know how many points I have, and I for sure don't have enough space to get everything out of its boxes to count. I know I did pass 6k by the end of 5th, so go figure …… etc
That sounds like a serious problem with the storage. I play warhammer for 3,5 year so it means I do 2500p per year for fun.
6th ed is 2000+. So its 20 years. For me it' s a forecast of another 50.000p of orks.
cody.d. wrote: Yeah can't say i'm that impressed by the ork box. Most of the others feel more interesting. Ours is a bit all over the place.
It ' s because you have all the ork stuff already and secretly thinks about another army. Freud is speaking from your heart. I have the same problem.
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cody.d. wrote: So they even took out the most interesting option? Noice!
be little positive. It could be just bad advertisement!
I suppose you make a fair point in that regard. But even trying to look at it through a different lens. We get 2-3 troop options and 2 HQs and 2 other units that aren't super interesting.
Other factions got 1 HQ, 1 troop then a few specialist units (marines blurring the line with 3 types of intercessors, who are in their own odd way specialists.) The admech one seems like a winner in it's variety though.
Thanks for putting the poll up Jid, put my two cents in. I've been playing orks since 2018 and have about 8500 pts worth of painted greenies, it's the spores man I'm sure of it, they just keep making more of themselves...
Tomsug wrote:Jidmah makes me to count my orks. And guys, this is a problem. I have over 10k p of orks, almost 8000p them are fullpainted.
And I don ' t have enough models to build the list I want.
Non of the lists I want.
Simply… not enough dakka.
Is there a chance, it will be better anytime soon? Or do I simply need about 30k to have at least some dakka?
I did have about 12k of orks way back when and I regrettably sold it all. Currently built it back up to about 4/5k.
I like all of the individual components to the Ork battleforce, but not as a single box set. If probably actually like it more if it has the old boys to be honest. Nobz and Boyz are a good utilitarian "bits" kit, similar to the trukk and deff dread kits.
A box of Nobz, two boxes of old Boyz, a Deff Dread, a Trukk, a BW and a jet would be a kitbashers dream.
I would agree if they didn't have nobz in every single box they have ever made. Nobz and warbikers are the only things that I have on sprues lying around with no intention of ever building them
I have no interest in the new box set, for starters why did GW include a unit that most ork players can now o my take two of, as well as units that ork players are not even going to take. At best the ork box can be used by new ork players trying to start an army but if you already have an ork army you have all of those units.
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, I ' m not interested in the box - I don' t need the 5th SAG. But my brothers 12year son is.
The target audience is probably "people with no clue of 40k buying christmas presents". In that context, the boxes aren't terrible since they are unlikely to be completely worthless for someone playing orks. Unlike the previous iterations of "nobz, deff dread, battlewagon, kanz" where you had to explain to people that you have already maxed out all those units because GW put the same stuff in every box...
I remember one of the local GW monkeys trying to shove the grukk box on me. "It even has killa kanz!" "Dude, I've got enough kanz." "You can't ever have enough!" "I've got 18." "Well... maybe for apoc?" *dumb grin*
cody.d. wrote: Yeah can't say i'm that impressed by the ork box. Most of the others feel more interesting. Ours is a bit all over the place.
You got the start of a goff horde with the boys and nobs, you got some speedfreak stuff with the wartrike and the flyer, a random shokk mek wedged in and some grots because why not.
I know it's just to shift... old? unwanted? underselling I guess, stock. But damn stick to a theme. A pair of nauts, dreads and kans maybe? A few different vehicles with some warbikers? A whole bunch of different infantry types.
The worst part is that it comes with a dakkajet instead of a wazzbom... Same kit, but one less sprue.
im confused. If you get a dakkajet dont you get the entire flyer sprue?
The wazbom was a new aircraft that was made off of the existing Dakkajet box. They created a new sprue to make it different. It was originally not part of the box…
Just like the ork battlewagon with the deffrolla sprue.
During 7th, the wazzbomm is an extra sprue that was added to the original ork bommer kit released during 5th which only builds into the original three planes. Eventually that kit disappeared because no one would it when they could just have a wazzbomm for a few bucks more.
Beardedragon wrote: I see. but we dont know if the wazbom kit is in the new box? I would be surprised if it wouldnt really.
I'm just assuming because it's odd that they didn't put the much more fancy and expensive plane on the advertisement. Sprue count also tends to be limited in those boxes, but I'm to lazy to count the DG sprues to see if they match with the orks or not. Then again, it's Games "Incompetence" Workshop, so who knows?
They don't sell the Ork flyer kit without the Wazbom sprue anymore. If they had any stock left without the Wazbom sprue they probably already reboxed it. I don't know why you would assume they would deliberately remove the Wazbom sprue for every battle force and be left with a bunch of sprues they can't sell on their own. GW always presents these multi-build kits as one particular unit over the others for visual convenience when they're included in a box set, the only time you see different is when it involves an easy to build sprue that they made for a limited time.
Hey guys, I'm doing a fun semi-casual list with a dred mob style list. I'm guessing that I should go for a Warboss for a regular WAAAGH since the +1A is more relevant for our walkers than the extra AP for shooting?
Madjob wrote: They don't sell the Ork flyer kit without the Wazbom sprue anymore. If they had any stock left without the Wazbom sprue they probably already reboxed it. I don't know why you would assume they would deliberately remove the Wazbom sprue for every battle force and be left with a bunch of sprues they can't sell on their own. GW always presents these multi-build kits as one particular unit over the others for visual convenience when they're included in a box set, the only time you see different is when it involves an easy to build sprue that they made for a limited time.
This, ork flyer comes with all 4 sprue by default now, it's the official kit. No way they're going to break it, there will definitely be the full kit in the battleforce.
The 4th sprue in GW eyes had the best value since the kit jumped from 36 to 60 in euro when it was added to the lot, making the kit almost twice the original price. Or maybe it was just an excuse to raise prices .
Grimskul wrote: Hey guys, I'm doing a fun semi-casual list with a dred mob style list. I'm guessing that I should go for a Warboss for a regular WAAAGH since the +1A is more relevant for our walkers than the extra AP for shooting?
If your list does not have a specifically strong ranged game then the +1A is a bit better, but honestly both types of waaaggh works well with dreadmob.
(I had rokkit kans and morka shooting out a unit of custodes in a speedwaaagh turn lol)
I'm curious what will be your dread list.
I am still testing mine and so far I feel like that a 50/50 dreamob/regular list gives best results. ('regular list' being infantry and fast elements for scoring objectives).
So I always ends up with
>Warboss / 2 trukkboys/ 2-3 kommandos / deffkoptas / flyer for regular list (it's a mini alphork !)
> 3 rokkit kans / 3-4 deffdread /1 Megadread / 1 Naut (Gorka or Morka depending)
Gives a solid build against regular lists (but no idea how it would be against top tourney list)
Grimskul wrote: Hey guys, I'm doing a fun semi-casual list with a dred mob style list. I'm guessing that I should go for a Warboss for a regular WAAAGH since the +1A is more relevant for our walkers than the extra AP for shooting?
Really depends on how many guns you have that benefit from it. Another option would be to just run Thrakka.
Grimskul wrote: Hey guys, I'm doing a fun semi-casual list with a dred mob style list. I'm guessing that I should go for a Warboss for a regular WAAAGH since the +1A is more relevant for our walkers than the extra AP for shooting?
If your list does not have a specifically strong ranged game then the +1A is a bit better, but honestly both types of waaaggh works well with dreadmob.
(I had rokkit kans and morka shooting out a unit of custodes in a speedwaaagh turn lol)
I'm curious what will be your dread list.
I am still testing mine and so far I feel like that a 50/50 dreamob/regular list gives best results. ('regular list' being infantry and fast elements for scoring objectives).
So I always ends up with
>Warboss / 2 trukkboys/ 2-3 kommandos / deffkoptas / flyer for regular list (it's a mini alphork !)
> 3 rokkit kans / 3-4 deffdread /1 Megadread / 1 Naut (Gorka or Morka depending)
Gives a solid build against regular lists (but no idea how it would be against top tourney list)
Interesting that we came to somewhat similar conclusions for the army build! Mine is using MekBoss Buzzgob to see how the +1 to hit ability is for the Morkanaut/Kanz, my rough draft list is this currently:
Warboss in Mega Armour with Cybork Body - 115
Warlord: 'Ard as Nails
Troops - 50
10 Gretchin - 50
Elites - 90
8 Kommandos with Nob with PK and Bomb Squig - 90
Fast Attack - 110
5 Stormboyz - 55
5 Stormboyz - 55
Heavy Support - 175
Mega Dred with 2 Rippa Klaws - 175
Goffs Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (-1CP) - 380
Morkanaut with Kustom Force Field - 380
Definitely not the most optimized, but I'm up for any advice. I was considering Thraka but he's too expensive IMO for a 1500 point list. If it was 2000 i'd definitely put him in over my regular Warboss.
Tomsug wrote: What is interesting on Dataslate is, that thanks 1 unit cap on buggies, considering squads of 3 opens the To The Last secondary as a fair option.
Especially if it's on three rukkatrukks sitting in your backfield, and even moreso if they make them more expensive as a further nerf
My experience with "To The Last" (though mostly from DG perspective) is that it just tends to be a more difficult to archive version of Grind them down - and for those armies where grind them down is not an option because of their durability and low unit count, no prisoners feels like the better choice.
It might just be a matter of taste, but I don't like giving my opponent control over how many VP I get. Killing the most expensive units of an opponent's army is usually the right thing to do anyways, and you can rarely prevent units from dying.
for speed freeks army, I think to the last is a very bad option.
This army struggles hard in attrition matches due that you cannot do secondaries pretty well and your ObSec will die in 2 turns (well, and your buggies and motos are just paper, they die super fast against anti-tank). I would play with much more aggresive secondaries and try to kick my opponent from the board in the first hour of match.
Played yesterday against Imperial Guard and Ultramarines. I won imperial guard 38-97 or something like that by rushing him with everything and pushing all my army in melee range. This imperial guard was 6-1 in the biggest GT in Spain (Talavera) so I think it was an OK level. Against ultramarine, he was destroyed in turn 1.
There are two options. In case enemy is able to hide well and shoot you off longrange, than hide in DS and keep himself back until T2. In case he' s not, deploy agresively, move 14” forward and shoot him off the board. The only that can stop you is extremely long charge ability (like 22”+) or very low model army unabeling to trigger freebotas +1. Or massive hord army like Semper use. Such list will beat this to hell I guess…
But kopta blades and MSJ big shootas can clear a lot of GEQ
Take 3x5 deffkoptas is also possible, but in this list I' m out of points and 5 of them is super hard to hide.
In average aprox.
2 wazbooms = 2 plagueburst crawlers down
3 squads of koptas = 3 drukhari raiders down
And than the scrapjets, squigbuggies and KMKs
I 'm not sure improvement tovards AoR will makes it more lethal, because koptas desperately needs +1 to hit and AoR improvements are
- either in CC and strategem so hard to be usefull on 3 squads dropping from DS.
- or something like 5++/6++ you don' t need. Because if proceed right, opponent can either not shoot on your koptas, or there is nothing dangerous alive after first voley.
Finished up the tournament. Sadly I didn't draw a DE player or a DG player but I did play against a Meta Thousand Sons list AND a Meta Ad Mech force.
Game 1 was against another Ork player who was running Freeboota buggy Spam. I went first and turn 1 I was in his deployment zone and I had tagged 4 squadrons of buggies and killed his Warboss on Trike so he wasn't even able to call the speedwaaagh on his turn. On his turn he attempted to turn things around and when he hadn't killed enough to protect his remaining units he conceded at the end of turn 1.
Game 2 was against the Meta Ad-Mech list. 2 Flyers, chickens and lots of rangers backed up by buffing characters. I went second in this one, turn 1 he advanced his flyers to get into range of my mek gunz and was able to plink 2 off the table from the double mek gun squad i run. His chickens tried to ace a trukk and whiffed horribly. Everything else he directed into my in Cover Kommandos who did suffer some pretty hefty losses (about 12 dead total) but nowhere near enough. On my turn everything went forward and in the shooting phase I was able to down a flyer with my remaining Mek gunz, destroy a pair of chickenwalkers with my Koptas and get everything else into charge range so that in the charge phase I killed most of his rangers, the koptas had kamikaze'd into his other flyer and killed it and most importantly, my warbosses had been able to disembark before movement and get stuck in. End of turn 1 my opponent was down to a pair of chickens, a mob of rangers and not much else. He conceded end of turn 1.
Game 3 was against the Meta Thousand Sons list which heavily featured Rubric Marines, a Daemon Prince and a big unit of Termies along with some spawn to keep you away from his casting units. I was able to deploy my Kommandos last so my opponent wasn't able to shield his entire deployment forces with his spawn. Turn 1 I went first and was able to get stuck in with a pair of rubric squads and wiped them both. My shooting killed all his spawn and I was able to get a unit of trukkboyz and a ramming speed unit of Koptas into CC with ahriman which turned out to just be enough to finish him off. On his turn he literally smited to death an entire unit of Kommandos and finished off a trukk, gunned down 2 of my Koptas and was about to turn it around when in CC his daemon prince whiffed and my now exposed warboss didn't. Into my Turn my Orkz ran over his remaining units and wiped out his remaining forces except for a loan rubric squad. Turn 2 he could have deployed his Terminators but at that point there was no point since he had no chance of winning the objectives and realistically all my mek gunz were alive so it was just a matter of time before they ate Mega Kannonz.
3 Games in this tournament, 2 first turn concedes and a 2nd turn concede. Alphork strike remains undefeated
SemperMortis wrote: Finished up the tournament. Sadly I didn't draw a DE player or a DG player but I did play against a Meta Thousand Sons list AND a Meta Ad Mech force.
Game 1 was against another Ork player who was running Freeboota buggy Spam. I went first and turn 1 I was in his deployment zone and I had tagged 4 squadrons of buggies and killed his Warboss on Trike so he wasn't even able to call the speedwaaagh on his turn. On his turn he attempted to turn things around and when he hadn't killed enough to protect his remaining units he conceded at the end of turn 1.
Game 2 was against the Meta Ad-Mech list. 2 Flyers, chickens and lots of rangers backed up by buffing characters. I went second in this one, turn 1 he advanced his flyers to get into range of my mek gunz and was able to plink 2 off the table from the double mek gun squad i run. His chickens tried to ace a trukk and whiffed horribly. Everything else he directed into my in Cover Kommandos who did suffer some pretty hefty losses (about 12 dead total) but nowhere near enough. On my turn everything went forward and in the shooting phase I was able to down a flyer with my remaining Mek gunz, destroy a pair of chickenwalkers with my Koptas and get everything else into charge range so that in the charge phase I killed most of his rangers, the koptas had kamikaze'd into his other flyer and killed it and most importantly, my warbosses had been able to disembark before movement and get stuck in. End of turn 1 my opponent was down to a pair of chickens, a mob of rangers and not much else. He conceded end of turn 1.
Game 3 was against the Meta Thousand Sons list which heavily featured Rubric Marines, a Daemon Prince and a big unit of Termies along with some spawn to keep you away from his casting units. I was able to deploy my Kommandos last so my opponent wasn't able to shield his entire deployment forces with his spawn. Turn 1 I went first and was able to get stuck in with a pair of rubric squads and wiped them both. My shooting killed all his spawn and I was able to get a unit of trukkboyz and a ramming speed unit of Koptas into CC with ahriman which turned out to just be enough to finish him off. On his turn he literally smited to death an entire unit of Kommandos and finished off a trukk, gunned down 2 of my Koptas and was about to turn it around when in CC his daemon prince whiffed and my now exposed warboss didn't. Into my Turn my Orkz ran over his remaining units and wiped out his remaining forces except for a loan rubric squad. Turn 2 he could have deployed his Terminators but at that point there was no point since he had no chance of winning the objectives and realistically all my mek gunz were alive so it was just a matter of time before they ate Mega Kannonz.
3 Games in this tournament, 2 first turn concedes and a 2nd turn concede. Alphork strike remains undefeated
Is there a link to your list? I've tried searching through your older posts but not having much luck finding it. Thanks!
I Traded out the Stormboyz for more DeffKoptas/warbikes since they tended to draw fire and with their craptastic defense profile they died far too easily. This gives me a decent amount of anti-flyer firepower/CC ability, on a waaagh turn a Kopta gets 9 attacks at S6 with exploding 6s. And since they are vehicles you can Ramming speed them if you want.
Little sad about the Stormboyz not being worth taking since I have 60-70 of them
The point is not to go for objectives, its to krump your opponent's lines turn 1 with enough oomph to guarantee a victory. After that you can score at your own leisure since you have a lot of very fast units and the enemy can't stop you anymore.
Also another call out for those that missed it - please do the survey for updating the first post: https://freeonlinesurveys.com/s/1vzVzaZc There already are 39 participants and so far the ratings are looking good. Outside of a few outliers (and me randomly forgetting the biker boss), its data will definitely go into the first post.
Congrats ! I prefer your "new" list without stormboyz. IMHO they are "just" action monkeys (very useful ones I use one or two mobs of 5 every game, deathskulls so they can also deny an objective or even hold one against a weak enemy units) because koptas are so much better at punching (our only two units which can go after 0-2 flyers in CC) - and they shoot-. For the alpha CC strike your list does, most def koptas over stormboyz.
I wasn't sold on koptas until recently but now I am onboard with them. I have like 10, too, and am currently rebasing them
SemperMortis Those three patrols are all Goff ? I must admit The CC potential of Goff koptas on a waagh turn is quite tempting, and the "no advance + charge" is not an issue on WTC tables when you have fly + 14 move + ramming speed
addnid wrote: Congrats ! I prefer your "new" list without stormboyz. IMHO they are "just" action monkeys (very useful ones I use one or two mobs of 5 every game, deathskulls so they can also deny an objective or even hold one against a weak enemy units) because koptas are so much better at punching (our only two units which can go after 0-2 flyers in CC) - and they shoot-. For the alpha CC strike your list does, most def koptas over stormboyz.
I wasn't sold on koptas until recently but now I am onboard with them. I have like 10, too, and am currently rebasing them
SemperMortis Those three patrols are all Goff ? I must admit The CC potential of Goff koptas on a waagh turn is quite tempting, and the "no advance + charge" is not an issue on WTC tables when you have fly + 14 move + ramming speed
Yes, all of them are Goffs.
On a WAAAGH turn, a unit of 3 Goff Koptas get 27 attacks, 22.5 hits all at S6 -1AP So anything barring a medium/heavy vehicle is going to have a bad day. Thats 150pts killing on average almost 4 Marines, and their rokkitz average another 2.2 dead Marines. So 150pts has a roughly 120pt return turn 1 against a unit of Marines. They are fast, durable, and can be buffed with a few strats to really help them out. Ramming speed is just a nice little Middle finger to those who think they are safe at 9+ inches away for charge range.
9 of them provides a lot of cover for the trukkz and warbikers as well. They appear more deadly than the trukkz and warbikes, they easily have -1 to hit, their ramshackle is sometimes useful and they sit at that sweet spot of 4 wounds which means it takes a decent amount of firepower to remove them.
The biggest factor in this list is 2 fold. 1: its an alpha strike list. Everything is in your face turn 1. Its a massive threat overload. And 2: Defensive overload. Everything in this list is T5 and T6. Nothing is stronger, nothing is weaker. You literally have no great target for any weapons choice except maybe dedicated anti-vehicle weapons which can target the trukkz without any major inconvenience. But if you do, you ignore 9 Koptas/bikes and 30 kommandos who will be in your face turn 1 and none of them have less than a 4+ save turn 1
I kinda like the new bloodaxe supplement… for 1 of those 3 patrols.. if you aren’t maxing out warlord traits extra kunnin is an auto 5 extra command points.
Straight shooter is better then shiny shoota relic
Surprise strat is phenominal on keeping kommandos alive with removing charge buffs and -1 to hit.
And spotted them is useful to remove cover…
Not sure if that’s worth losing +1 str on charge and exploding 6s… if the kultur was 12in then yea… but 18in is rarely useful especially for kommandos which are usually deployed in light cover already.
Stormboys would have been great in a speedmob… if they get the speedfreak keyword… they would be awesome.
Really like the idea of running Deffkoptas in lei of Stormboyz... especially since you already have 3x10 Boyz. I haven't seen deffkptas run yet much in 9th, and I haven't run them myself as I prefer maxed squads of bikers.
With the 3 trucks/trukkboyz I assume that your war bosses are riding with them. Do they just stay in the trucks t1 and then come out after? What ws your plan for them?
Ran a speedfreekz list at a local event this weekend. Went 100-x the first two games against TS and GK, but got smoked by admech last game. So I guess we aren't on an even footing yet.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Really like the idea of running Deffkoptas in lei of Stormboyz... especially since you already have 3x10 Boyz. I haven't seen deffkptas run yet much in 9th, and I haven't run them myself as I prefer maxed squads of bikers.
With the 3 trucks/trukkboyz I assume that your war bosses are riding with them. Do they just stay in the trucks t1 and then come out after? What ws your plan for them?
Bikers are ok, but they only really function if you are freeboota/speedwaaagh. 6 cost you 150pts, they will net you 72 shots during a speedwaaagh turn, thats only 24 hits, against T4 thats 16 wounds and at -1AP its 8dmg to a Marine unit. Take away the speedwaaagh and it goes down to 20 hits, 13 wounds and about 4 dmg to a Marine unit good but not great. And in CC...they mostly bounce off since they are just boyz so 3 attacks each with choppas and the nob gets 4, grand total of 15 attacks at S4 and 4 at S5. I played a game against an Ork army with my bikes and those Dakkagunz were just bouncing off everything. I targeted his bikes with mine and the -1 to hit cut that slim dmg in half, it was terrible.
I only use bikers for their speed/durability and their ability to tie things up in CC and not care about retaliatory fire. The Deffkoptas on the other hand are capable of inflicting serious dmg to a host of units. 150pts gets you 3 and you AVERAGE 12 shots and 4 hits, 3.3 wounds and 2.2 wounds for 2.2 dead Marines, in CC they get 27 attacks at S5 -1AP. They do dmg in both phases, they can ramming speed charge, they can fly, they have built in ramshackle and can have easy access to -1 to hit. Honestly I think they are slightly over priced in a competitive meta but not by much at all. In the new Army of Renown they are going to be amazing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, and as far as the Trukkz/warbosses. Yep, they start the game inside, and 1 almost always hops out to bum rush something someone left exposed Gotta remember, hop out 3, move 5, advance D6 and Charge. if No Mans land is 18' and they deploy close to the line its somewhat reliable, you just need a 3-4 advance to really have a good chance of getting stuck in .
gungo wrote: I kinda like the new bloodaxe supplement… for 1 of those 3 patrols.. if you aren’t maxing out warlord traits extra kunnin is an auto 5 extra command points.
Straight shooter is better then shiny shoota relic
Surprise strat is phenominal on keeping kommandos alive with removing charge buffs and -1 to hit.
And spotted them is useful to remove cover…
Not sure if that’s worth losing +1 str on charge and exploding 6s… if the kultur was 12in then yea… but 18in is rarely useful especially for kommandos which are usually deployed in light cover already.
Stormboys would have been great in a speedmob… if they get the speedfreak keyword… they would be awesome.
Me too. I my view it breathes life into the infantry as an enabler for various VP Actions.
I´m testing a backfield unit of Shoota Boyz escorted by a WL Big Mek with Straight Shoota and Duk'AnKuvva. Alongside Surprize! on Snikrot + Kommandos these are good at Get da Good Bitz for 6 VP/turn (Mission allowing). Kommandos are much harder to shift and the Boyz are simply a pain to target. Taktical Awarness and even Speshul Ammo has come into use thanks to BA´s jumping out of melee.
The rest of the army is a usual setup of fighty units running interference. I´m liking multiple Buggies due to the cover denial supplied by Kommandos and Spotted.
It all fits together neatly as an 180 on the alpha strike list which is refreshing. Not sure how good it is yet though.
Good point with the no man's land being usually 18 inches. And with three Trukk bosses, at least one should be in range for sure.
Do you take the extra traits/relics on the bosses? I've found that in most of my games starting at low CP isn't that bad because there aren't that many Strats I want to use in game anyway.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Good point with the no man's land being usually 18 inches. And with three Trukk bosses, at least one should be in range for sure.
Do you take the extra traits/relics on the bosses? I've found that in most of my games starting at low CP isn't that bad because there aren't that many Strats I want to use in game anyway.
Absolutely. I've changed some of them around. My Actual warlord has Cybork body and the -1 to wound warlord trait, point being to just be insanely hard to kill. The other regular warboss has BBK and Relic PK (too many -1dmg things out there, need that 3dmg) and finally the Mega warboss is running Krushin Armor and Might is Right, which pushes him to S11 on the charge. For my actual warlord, running around with a 4+ invuln, half incoming dmg and -1 to wound....its hilarious. More than once a dedicated CC character/unit has basically bounced off my warlord. The -1 to wound is really good at this since T6 means most people are wounding on 4s and 5s.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Good point with the no man's land being usually 18 inches. And with three Trukk bosses, at least one should be in range for sure.
Do you take the extra traits/relics on the bosses? I've found that in most of my games starting at low CP isn't that bad because there aren't that many Strats I want to use in game anyway.
In my experience of taking the alphork route that Semper has set up, I definitely use up CP for extra relics and traits. That's what pushes the bosses over, IMO, into "can't ignore" territory, since you it gives them either extra survivability or damage that makes it so your opponent has to either dedicate real resources to eliminate or has to avoid in terms of the damage it can do. Usually you give the one with Da Killa Klaw Brutal But Kunnin, and I give the Mega Armour Warboss variant 'Ard as Nails alongside either the Krushin Armour or Supa Cybork Body depending on the armies you face. The third warboss I usually give the Eadwompa's Killchoppa.
I do run them in freebooters but have also run them in badmoon (which works great for +6 to range, 6's are -1 and the 1cp Strat showin' off).
But I prefer them because of how survivable they are. For 150 pts you get 18 t5 wounds at an inbuilt -1 to hit vs 12 t5 without a -1 (and they have 3 wounds, which means that d2 weapons are ineffective against them, which is nice)
Also their shooting is more effective vs 2 wound infantry, because you aren't burning a wound on each death. Shooting on average Deffkoptas are killing 2 marines in the shooting phase, and so are bikes.
In CC Deffkoptas do 9 wounds to MEQ, killing 4.5
If you pay the 10 pts for a PK the bikes are doing 5 wounds plus the PK kills 1 marine a turn. Killing 3 on average.
So they're on average doing roughly the same damage in each phase.
All that just to say, I think we're using them in different applications. You're using Deffkoptas alpha strike and I'm using 9xbikes to score objectives, control the board, and not die. But you've put a bug in my ear about the defkoptas! I think I'll try a squad in my next game just to see how they fair.
I do run them in freebooters but have also run them in badmoon (which works great for +6 to range, 6's are -1 and the 1cp Strat showin' off).
But I prefer them because of how survivable they are. For 150 pts you get 18 t5 wounds at an inbuilt -1 to hit vs 12 t5 without a -1 (and they have 3 wounds, which means that d2 weapons are ineffective against them, which is nice)
Also their shooting is more effective vs 2 wound infantry, because you aren't burning a wound on each death. Shooting on average Deffkoptas are killing 2 marines in the shooting phase, and so are bikes.
In CC Deffkoptas do 9 wounds to MEQ, killing 4.5
If you pay the 10 pts for a PK the bikes are doing 5 wounds plus the PK kills 1 marine a turn. Killing 3 on average.
So they're on average doing roughly the same damage in each phase.
All that just to say, I think we're using them in different applications. You're using Deffkoptas alpha strike and I'm using 9xbikes to score objectives, control the board, and not die. But you've put a bug in my ear about the defkoptas! I think I'll try a squad in my next game just to see how they fair.
It's funny you mention the damage for deffkoptas, because I feel like more often than not, the flat 3 damage is never wasted. There's so much -1D abilities now that I feel like 3D is needed to even do anything to multi-wound models in 9th ed.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Good point with the no man's land being usually 18 inches. And with three Trukk bosses, at least one should be in range for sure.
Do you take the extra traits/relics on the bosses? I've found that in most of my games starting at low CP isn't that bad because there aren't that many Strats I want to use in game anyway.
Absolutely. I've changed some of them around. My Actual warlord has Cybork body and the -1 to wound warlord trait, point being to just be insanely hard to kill. The other regular warboss has BBK and Relic PK (too many -1dmg things out there, need that 3dmg) and finally the Mega warboss is running Krushin Armor and Might is Right, which pushes him to S11 on the charge. For my actual warlord, running around with a 4+ invuln, half incoming dmg and -1 to wound....its hilarious. More than once a dedicated CC character/unit has basically bounced off my warlord. The -1 to wound is really good at this since T6 means most people are wounding on 4s and 5s.
I actually ran a list *sort of* similar to yours recently. I had 2 patrols, 5 trucks, 2 maxed nobs squads all with big choppas and choppas, 1 unkillable warboss with the ard as nails and cybork, and a Killy warboss with killa Klaw and might makes right. Then two units of Trukk Boyz, and some other various stuff. My plan was to shoot up the Trukk Boyz to tie up shooting units and bring the nobs in for a t2 Waaaagh. I decided not to give nobz Trukk Boyz so they could keep the goff traits and use unbridled carnage.
I was fighting GK and ended up winning because my Killa Klaw warboss used the fight on death Strat to kill a unit of termies and prevented the other player from scoring 15 on primaries that turn.
I wasn't running it as a competitive list, but I think that if I were I would have brought min squads of Deffkoptas instead of min bikes and Stormboyz.
I do run them in freebooters but have also run them in badmoon (which works great for +6 to range, 6's are -1 and the 1cp Strat showin' off).
But I prefer them because of how survivable they are. For 150 pts you get 18 t5 wounds at an inbuilt -1 to hit vs 12 t5 without a -1 (and they have 3 wounds, which means that d2 weapons are ineffective against them, which is nice)
Also their shooting is more effective vs 2 wound infantry, because you aren't burning a wound on each death. Shooting on average Deffkoptas are killing 2 marines in the shooting phase, and so are bikes.
In CC Deffkoptas do 9 wounds to MEQ, killing 4.5
If you pay the 10 pts for a PK the bikes are doing 5 wounds plus the PK kills 1 marine a turn. Killing 3 on average.
So they're on average doing roughly the same damage in each phase.
All that just to say, I think we're using them in different applications. You're using Deffkoptas alpha strike and I'm using 9xbikes to score objectives, control the board, and not die. But you've put a bug in my ear about the defkoptas! I think I'll try a squad in my next game just to see how they fair.
It's funny you mention the damage for deffkoptas, because I feel like more often than not, the flat 3 damage is never wasted. There's so much -1D abilities now that I feel like 3D is needed to even do anything to multi-wound models in 9th ed.
Well I was referring to MEQ who even if they popped a -1 wound would still only have 2 die a turn. I guess my point is ultimately that bikes will do the same damage regardless. But don't get me wrong, I think that Deffkoptas are certainly better anti-tank than bikes. I just already have anti-tank in my lists so I don't need another unit to fill that role.
The difference is that those koptas also don't worry about terrain since they can "fly". So they tend to be faster on the board since they don't have to go around cover. And the 150pts of Warbikes require another 10pts for a PK to deal less but similar dmg to the koptas. Also remember, that PK is -1 to hit so the Nob with PK only wounds 0.83 times, so there is a chance he whiffs that turn, where as the Koptas AVERAGE 6dmg a turn vs Marines. And against Softer targets they really shine. S5 naturally means they are wounding most targets on 3s, and if you are running goff, you can shred T3 units by wounding on 2s
So I have like 20 Flash Gitz that I relatively recently finished painting and I want to give some of them a whirl. While I won't bring 20 because that's an insane amount of points, do they work best in a Bad Moonz detachment or a Freeboota one? Bad Moonz gives them that extra range and AP for their guns on 6's to wound, but Freebootas as an army wide detachment is more likely to proc their +1 to hit. What do you guys think? Is Badrukk even worth considering when they're likely to be parked in a trukk?
Semper, have you considered running Squighog Cav instead of Bikers at all? Their threat is vastly less on the Waaagh turn and the Dakka is non existent for screen removal, but boy do they krump.
If your enemy deploys at the line, it’s a very plausible t1 charge with the cav.
Second question: who exactly are your specialist mobs? Just the three Trukkboy Warbosses? Are the boyz in the trukks just kind of “there” since they aren’t Trukkboyz?
Yeah, but against soft targets bikes REALLY shine. >
And I agree, Deffkoptas are more mobile for sure. But even with terrain bikes can move 18 inches when they advance. I've rarely found a situation where I couldn't get them where I wanted them.
Like I said, I think we're talking about different applications for units that fill a similar role.
Rivener wrote: Semper, have you considered running Squighog Cav instead of Bikers at all? Their threat is vastly less on the Waaagh turn and the Dakka is non existent for screen removal, but boy do they krump.
If your enemy deploys at the line, it’s a very plausible t1 charge with the cav.
Second question: who exactly are your specialist mobs? Just the three Trukkboy Warbosses? Are the boyz in the trukks just kind of “there” since they aren’t Trukkboyz?
Squighogs are a very good secondary hammer to support an Alphork Strike list. Tie the enemy units up or outright kill them, then clean up turn two with the hogs.
Rivener wrote: Semper, have you considered running Squighog Cav instead of Bikers at all? Their threat is vastly less on the Waaagh turn and the Dakka is non existent for screen removal, but boy do they krump.
If your enemy deploys at the line, it’s a very plausible t1 charge with the cav.
Second question: who exactly are your specialist mobs? Just the three Trukkboy Warbosses? Are the boyz in the trukks just kind of “there” since they aren’t Trukkboyz?
Afro mentioned it but he was basically spot on. Squig cav are a solid Beta strike force, not really Alphork. Koptas have a first turn threat range of 14+2D6 (3D6 with ramming speed) for a max threat range of 26 and an average of 24, their guns are also potent and can reach 38' turn 1. Warbikes are 14+6+2D6 threat range for a max of 32 and an average of 27. Trukk Boyz are 12+3+5+D6+2D6 for a max threat range of 38 and an average of 30.
Squig cav are 10+D6+2D6 max threat range of 28 but an average of only 20. So if your opponent doesn't deploy on the line they don't really have a chance to get stuck in. They also believe it or not, are not as durable as a warbike. To kill a Warbike with bolters takes 36 shots, 36 shots is 18 hits, 6 wounds and 3 failed for 1 dead Bike. To kill a Squighog takes 27 shots. 27 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds 1 dead Squig. They are a bit more durable vs S5-6 weapons but against S7-9 they are back to being less durable Thanks almost exclusively to the warbikes built in -1 to hit.
That -1 To hit might not sound good, but believe it or not, it meshes really well with the alphork strike because about half the time my Kommandos are hiding in -1 to hit cover, meaning I have 6 units on the table that are -1 to hit with 4+ armor saves. Against units with bad BS (Orkz especially) this is a killer. Imagine a Freeboota list trying to kill a unit of Kommandos in cover to gain their +1 to hit....something that has literally happened to me very recently. My opponent ended up dumping 2 Speedwaaagh Dakkajetz into a unit of Kommandos in the hope of killing the unit. 84 shots, 14 hits and only 9ish wounds on average. At -2AP you still get a 6+ save so you save 1.5 of those so you just neutered his shooting alpha strike. Against warbikers its similar, 84 shots, 14 hits, 9ish wounds and 6+ save for 7ish dmg, not enough to finish of a single unit of 3 warbikes believe it or not. In the end he killed a Mek gun to proc his +1 but he had made a fatal mistake at that point and the game ended Turn 1 when I had tagged all his ranged threats and even downed his dakkajetz with some spectacular dmg from my Koptas/mek gunz and a bum rush charge from aforementioned koptas.
The bigger trade off for them is that when they do get into combat they are significantly better, 3 S6 AP-2 2dmg, 1 S3 -1AP attack and 2 S6 -1 2dmg attacks all hitting on 3s. They do have an inbuilt invuln save which is nice and they get a native +1 to hit vs Monsters/vehicles.
Long story short, yes I have absolutely considered them. I think they are very good for their price but sadly, they are just a bit too slow for me to take in my list. I have 6 of the little guys right now, and if I ever get that last unit of 3 I may run them as 3x3 just for the cheap CC threat (225pts for 36 S7 AP-2 2dmg attacks, 9 S3 -1AP attacks and 18 S6 -1 2dmg attacks) all of that as goff on a waaagh mind you
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, when you run into an Ad-Mech list featuring 60+ infantry, you will be very happy to have warbikers in your list. The ability to delete a huge swathe of overwatch from those units is really important.
So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. Furthermore, you cant even buy the old Kommandos. And im sitting here, itching to start my stormboyz/Kommandos alpha strike list so ive put stormboyz on my christmas whishing list, but i cant put no bloody kommandos on it, because they have been completely removed from the store.
Most my family will probably buy ork models on black friday, and i bet the models arent out there yet either.
Guess no kommandos for me this christmas. :(
Also i had my first turnement (ETC) this saturday and sunday. Ive never played with time limit before so it was kind of stressful. The terrain was also placed with like GW style tables which seemed radically different from what i play normally. It was quite the experience. I was a stand in reserve so i had to slap together a list within few days i had never really played. But i guess it went okay, i had 1 victory, 1 loss and 3 literal fething draws lol.
I could have won 2 of them though if i had not been a melon. The time really pressured me so i made dumb decisions by the end.
On the positive side, people commended me for using 2 Grot Mega tanks with Scorchas lol
ThePauliPrinciple wrote: I just got my gargantuan squiggoth. How would people build an army around it?
id say its almost a MUST to use tankbustas or flash Gitz, to utilize its "stationary" effect when they are embarked. The model is already hideously over priced for what it does, so you need to get the most out of its abilities. You get that by using tankbustas or flash gitz which fires heavy weapons.
ThePauliPrinciple wrote: I just got my gargantuan squiggoth. How would people build an army around it?
Well, my garg squiggoth army is rather silly - I run it with Thrakka, Makari, squigosaur, squig hogs, ramming squigs a SJD, scrapjets, warbikers and a single piston deff dread and fill it up with tank bustas. Essentially I'm using it as a giant distraction for all the fast hard-hitters that showers everything around it in rokkits if they refuse to take the bait. All goff, of course.
Didnt someone place at a major tournament with a garantuan squiggoth not too long ago? Want to say he got something like 4th at a pretty large event right after the codex came out
MrMoustaffa wrote: Didnt someone place at a major tournament with a garantuan squiggoth not too long ago? Want to say he got something like 4th at a pretty large event right after the codex came out
Are you sure this wasn't before the new FW book? The gargantuan squiggoth got hit pretty hard with the nerf bat in that book and I can't remember anyone doing well with it afterwards.
Semper is right. If you go alphastrike, go alphastrike and don' t waste the time with beta strike units. And dynos are betastrike. It is the same with warbosses. 10” squigboss is strong but slow.
Big advantage of deffkoptas is their ability to DS and of course the Fly. They are better than wabikers. But cost twice as much. So it' s about power per point. And well, as was said, Koptas and Warbikers fill the little bit different role. Koptas do damage, Bikers hold the objective.
What is crucial to see and know is the how the average rolls are disintegrated from the shots to inflicting the damage regarding where you apply +/-1.
Let' s say you have 5+ BS and wound and save on 4+
From 36 shots, there are 3 actual inflicted damages.
If you apply bonus of 1 in the shooters favor on save or wound roll, you got 4 inflicted damages.
But if you apply it on the hit, you get 4,5 - that is 50% more!
Same shift between BS 6+ to 5+ is from 1,5 to 3 = 100%.
On the other side, % improvement with better BS goes down from 3+ to 2+ it' s 6 to 7,5 = 25% more
That is the reason, why GW put the max +/-1 to hit.
That is the reason, why bullets bouncing of the Bikers.
That is why the Freeboota trait is so absurdly strong (and tricky) that it is an accomplice of nerf so radical it affected the CORE RULES.
And that is the reason, why you want your one unit of 3 squigbuggis stretched in the long line to give -1 to hit to all your SF units in the different parts of the table.
Combination of our low BS and modifier on hit.
Interesting is that with better BS, modifier of 1 on wound becames better.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Didnt someone place at a major tournament with a garantuan squiggoth not too long ago? Want to say he got something like 4th at a pretty large event right after the codex came out
Are you sure this wasn't before the new FW book? The gargantuan squiggoth got hit pretty hard with the nerf bat in that book and I can't remember anyone doing well with it afterwards.
There is always someone clever enough to catch others off guard. I'm pretty sure there was some GS list in the “mentioned without the list” on goonhammer couple of weeks ago.
Grimskul wrote: So I have like 20 Flash Gitz that I relatively recently finished painting and I want to give some of them a whirl. While I won't bring 20 because that's an insane amount of points, do they work best in a Bad Moonz detachment or a Freeboota one? Bad Moonz gives them that extra range and AP for their guns on 6's to wound, but Freebootas as an army wide detachment is more likely to proc their +1 to hit. What do you guys think? Is Badrukk even worth considering when they're likely to be parked in a trukk?
I think they're good on their own, Badrukk doesn't really enhance them and he's quite expensive. Badrukk's not trash but a Big mek with KFF and Dead Shiny Shoota is much better at that point.
I'd definitely put them in a trukk though, for extra protection mostly but also for getting better LOS thanks to trukk's higher movement characteristic, if there aren't appropriate targets around.
About the klan, Freebooterz only if part of a large detachment, Bad Moons if part of a small one. As usual, if you don't have many units that can trigger or can get benefit from the Freebooterz trait don't bother with that klan.
Beardedragon wrote: So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. Furthermore, you cant even buy the old Kommandos. And im sitting here, itching to start my stormboyz/Kommandos alpha strike list so ive put stormboyz on my christmas whishing list, but i cant put no bloody kommandos on it, because they have been completely removed from the store.
I just use Boyz with red painted faces. Red Skulls a la Snikrots lads.
Beardedragon wrote: So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. Furthermore, you cant even buy the old Kommandos. And im sitting here, itching to start my stormboyz/Kommandos alpha strike list so ive put stormboyz on my christmas whishing list, but i cant put no bloody kommandos on it, because they have been completely removed from the store.
I just use Boyz with red painted faces. Red Skulls a la Snikrots lads.
Burna heads + big shoota backpacks + boyz + paintjob has been the way to build kommadoz for a long time. After all, kommadoz used to be a FW upgrade sprue for the boyz kit which just was gas masks heads and backpacks. If you got the killteam box, you can also use bits and heads from there, luckily there are 20 heads on the sprue.
I just finished 30 new kommandos (got them for 40 + 40 + 30 euros on ebay, last box was real cheap, not on ebay but trhough a shady retailer), and the models are just so great, it would be a shame to not get them. But I understand, I have 10 AOBR koptas, I won't be buying the new koptas even though they look really great.
On an other note, I won against ad mech (one of my tournament team mates) last saturday with this list:
QG 1 : [WL] Beastboss on Squigosaur (145), Relic: Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, WLT: Big Gob [145 pts]
QG 2 : Big Mek in Maega Armour (85), Kustom Force Field (30), Extra relic (-1 PC), DA KRUSHIN’ ARMOUR [115 pts]
I went second, and he deleted one kill rig, and took half the points away from another. He also killed a few kommandos (like 3 total maybe) buit no moral test was failed. Brave dudes ! His two Fusilaves flew in to move block me, but I managed to roll good advance rolls for the two remaining kill rigs and went "under" them and on to the centre objective. I downed one of the planes, and the other was left on 1 wound. I also killed one of his two las chicken, and moved the rest of the army causiously (I healed three wounds on the wounded kill rig with my big mek which was so cool ! don't get to do that often hah hah. I raised banners, did the mission thing (mission with the moving objectives, you autotake the mission secondary on that one) and didn't do warp ritual. I wanted to try it out because of my 48 wounds of psyker characters, but never again. I didn't do it once that game, and didn't regret it as my kill rigs had other stuff to do, more important stuff.
My plan was to sacrifice the kill rigs, using them as distraction carnifexes and it worked ! He finished off the second kill rig on his turn 2 shooting phase, but left my last kill rig undamaged as he didn't have much anti tank left. He also moved conservatively with his large skitarii veteran units, and sent one unit of rustalkers in reserve, and kept his other unit safely in a transport, and the transport was behind a ruin wall so not much i could do about it.
On my turn 2, I still don't have a good reason to use my waaagh ! so I kepp moving kommandos from cover to cover, ans well as snikrot, and bunch my sguigosor bosses, the big mek and the remaining kill rig in the middle of the table to bait him into charging the bunched units with his two unit of rustalkers. I finished of the last las chick with my kill rig shots + 2 of the three sguig buggys.
On his turn 3, I was so pleased, he took the bait ! We rushed in with his rustalkers for the mid table, and I thought oh well, I will lose the kill rig for sure, but one of the two sguig bossed will fight on death, and he can't kill 2 bosses AND a kill rig. I had forgotten about the +1 to wound strat "BINHARIC OFFENSE " and his flamer dudes with wings, and his skitarii rangers, with the +1, to wound, kill my kill rig in his shooting phase.
OK, good, so my beastsnaggas disembark, and I made a wall to prevent both rustalker units charging my bosses and my obsec big mek (I was counting on my obsec big mek to hold the centre objective for the rest of the game, so i had to prevent my opponent from killing him ! At all costs !!).
So on his charge phase, my disembark shenanigans effectively prevented him form charging more than one boss on sguigosaur and the unit of beastsnaggas. Statisctically, the beast boss should have been brought from 8 wounds (he had lost one due to a kill rig explosion mortal wound) sown to 1 wound, so if he rolled just above average, that boss was dead ! He wiffed, leaving his on 4 wounds, and killed the beastnagga unit (we didn't even roll the wound rolls, he scored so many hits !!).
On ly third turn, I called the Waagh ! (I didn't shout because he was looking so grim, and was right to hah hah), and for once did ok with my advance rolls ! On my charge phase, I managed to charge into the rangers with my kommandos, charge snikrot into the Tech-Priest Manipulus, another kommando unit in the rustalkers (the ones who killed my beastsnaggas). My big mek went into them too, and was now happily sitting on the middle objective, ob sec and smug hah hah (a bit sad about the loss of the three kill rigs he had built, but there was a lot of scrap too loot after the battle !!).
Both bosses were set to murder the other rustalkers (who had already taken a hit from the big boss on sguigosaur with the 4 wounds remaining). The only charge I failed was with my 3rd kommando unit (a roll of 7 was needed for the charge, but that's life hah hah).
So i killed both units of rustalkers, most rangers (his bad attrition rolls helped me because I wiffed my kommando attacks, even with the +1 to hit from snikrot aura) and his manipulus (thanks to brutal but kunning), and the game was more or less over at this point.
I love that list, and made it worked even with a terrain layout which really prevented me from deploying/moving my kill rigs as I would have wanted. I am really unsure though about the kill rigs (they can get move blocked perhaps a bit too easily, if I had done bad advance rolls on my turn 1 it would have been tricky for me, to say the least), but will keep trying with them, as I now have 3 (one real model, two kusto built) all painted based and looking rather good I must say.
I think I played really well despite it being my first "non speedwaagh" game with the codex (well second really, but my first was against a casual player so that doesn't count much), there is not one move I would have made differently, except of course replacing warp ritual by Domination (hold more objectives at the end my turn). It really helps to play competitive 40k as often as I do these days (nearly two games a week on average).
Hope this post wasn't too long a post , and waagh to all of you who managed to get to the end of this without skipping too many parts
MrMoustaffa wrote: Didnt someone place at a major tournament with a garantuan squiggoth not too long ago? Want to say he got something like 4th at a pretty large event right after the codex came out
Are you sure this wasn't before the new FW book? The gargantuan squiggoth got hit pretty hard with the nerf bat in that book and I can't remember anyone doing well with it afterwards.
true. ive used it once since 9th edition and i only barely won against T'au lol
Beardedragon wrote: So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. Furthermore, you cant even buy the old Kommandos. And im sitting here, itching to start my stormboyz/Kommandos alpha strike list so ive put stormboyz on my christmas whishing list, but i cant put no bloody kommandos on it, because they have been completely removed from the store.
I just use Boyz with red painted faces. Red Skulls a la Snikrots lads.
Burna heads + big shoota backpacks + boyz + paintjob has been the way to build kommadoz for a long time. After all, kommadoz used to be a FW upgrade sprue for the boyz kit which just was gas masks heads and backpacks.
If you got the killteam box, you can also use bits and heads from there, luckily there are 20 heads on the sprue.
Sounds like an actual idea.
Thanks. I kind of wanted the new sprue though, for the battering ram which at the very least, seem like an interesting CC weapon.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Didnt someone place at a major tournament with a garantuan squiggoth not too long ago? Want to say he got something like 4th at a pretty large event right after the codex came out
Are you sure this wasn't before the new FW book? The gargantuan squiggoth got hit pretty hard with the nerf bat in that book and I can't remember anyone doing well with it afterwards.
Going through his rules some more, it seems like he's got almost no interactions (no clan rules if I understand correctly, almost no strategems nor abilities that target it). His CC look alright, but I guess getting him into combat will be the problem.
gungo wrote: Should of had beastsnagga keyword…. I mean they still have that strat waiting for him with that keyword no one can use.
I would imagine that if it had the beastsnagga keyword, it would only be allowed to transport beastsnagga keyworded units, which would be unfortunate...
1. Deffdreads and Killa Kans on the scene again.
2. Freebootas are definitely not dead.
3. AoR is also there with the expected list
4. Killrigs just as an option in Freebotas list.
5. Some nonsences in the comments as usually…
Ork buggy meta seems to be shifted to “as usually but less planes and take something, that can fight on the ground” - kans, dreads, rigs…
Beardedragon wrote: So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. Furthermore, you cant even buy the old Kommandos. And im sitting here, itching to start my stormboyz/Kommandos alpha strike list so ive put stormboyz on my christmas whishing list, but i cant put no bloody kommandos on it, because they have been completely removed from the store.
Most my family will probably buy ork models on black friday, and i bet the models arent out there yet either.
Guess no kommandos for me this christmas. :(
Also i had my first turnement (ETC) this saturday and sunday. Ive never played with time limit before so it was kind of stressful. The terrain was also placed with like GW style tables which seemed radically different from what i play normally. It was quite the experience. I was a stand in reserve so i had to slap together a list within few days i had never really played. But i guess it went okay, i had 1 victory, 1 loss and 3 literal fething draws lol.
I could have won 2 of them though if i had not been a melon. The time really pressured me so i made dumb decisions by the end.
On the positive side, people commended me for using 2 Grot Mega tanks with Scorchas lol
right there with you, I have some cash literally waiting for that kit to go on sale so I can buy 3 of them (Better come in mobz of 10) With that said...If it comes in mobz of 10 as I hope it does....You have to buy 5 to maximize unitz...but then you will have 5 left over models...I guess a couple will be the extra nobz?
All I'm getting from that article is that Drukhari and GK still rule the roost as top tier armies, people are losing interest in AdMech (or have figured out how to deal with them), Tyranids are going to be a problem going forward, and that Space Marines live on in various flavours of rogue lists.
Oh, and Orks aren't and weren't nearly as much of an issue as people said they are/were.....
Beardedragon wrote: So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. ….
1. Ebay or FB markets groups. I see them pretty often.
2. Kommandos are the most pleasurable models to convert! Boyz as the core and add various bits around. My favourite ane spellcrow parts for this.
Afrodactyl wrote: All I'm getting from that article is that Drukhari and GK still rule the roost as top tier armies, people are losing interest in AdMech (or have figured out how to deal with them), Tyranids are going to be a problem going forward, and that Space Marines live on in various flavours of rogue lists.
Oh, and Orks aren't and weren't nearly as much of an issue as people said they are/were.....
Don' t speak about drukhari. I had to drop the tournament due covid last weekend. So I substitued on TTS. All drukhari. Just drukhari. Drukhari here, drukhari there. Gak!
Our round base buggies have a problem to fit on the table and their arrow-shaped boats on one inch base or what can be in CC 20times with the single boy…
I really want to play a GT just to get my alphork strike list a test at that level Not to mention it would piss off all the right people. A Good friend of mine who goes regularly to GTs is furious at Buggy spam, so it would be hilarious to have him complain about Alphork strike.
Beardedragon wrote: So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. Furthermore, you cant even buy the old Kommandos. And im sitting here, itching to start my stormboyz/Kommandos alpha strike list so ive put stormboyz on my christmas whishing list, but i cant put no bloody kommandos on it, because they have been completely removed from the store.
I just use Boyz with red painted faces. Red Skulls a la Snikrots lads.
Burna heads + big shoota backpacks + boyz + paintjob has been the way to build kommadoz for a long time. After all, kommadoz used to be a FW upgrade sprue for the boyz kit which just was gas masks heads and backpacks.
If you got the killteam box, you can also use bits and heads from there, luckily there are 20 heads on the sprue.
I also kitbash kommandos from regular boyz, burna heads plus other bitz
The truth is, immediately after I saw the new monopose boys kit, I' ve bought all the old boyz available in Prague. About 10 boxes. These spare parts are just too valuable…
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SemperMortis wrote: I really want to play a GT just to get my alphork strike list a test at that level Not to mention it would piss off all the right people. A Good friend of mine who goes regularly to GTs is furious at Buggy spam, so it would be hilarious to have him complain about Alphork strike.
Be careful. Your Alphork list suffers with one big issue. If you krump everybody T1, you have nothing to do for the rest of the time limit for the game
Beardedragon wrote: So.. its almost Christmas and the Kommandos cant be sold seperately yet. Furthermore, you cant even buy the old Kommandos. And im sitting here, itching to start my stormboyz/Kommandos alpha strike list so ive put stormboyz on my christmas whishing list, but i cant put no bloody kommandos on it, because they have been completely removed from the store.
Most my family will probably buy ork models on black friday, and i bet the models arent out there yet either.
Guess no kommandos for me this christmas. :(
Also i had my first turnement (ETC) this saturday and sunday. Ive never played with time limit before so it was kind of stressful. The terrain was also placed with like GW style tables which seemed radically different from what i play normally. It was quite the experience. I was a stand in reserve so i had to slap together a list within few days i had never really played. But i guess it went okay, i had 1 victory, 1 loss and 3 literal fething draws lol.
I could have won 2 of them though if i had not been a melon. The time really pressured me so i made dumb decisions by the end.
On the positive side, people commended me for using 2 Grot Mega tanks with Scorchas lol
right there with you, I have some cash literally waiting for that kit to go on sale so I can buy 3 of them (Better come in mobz of 10) With that said...If it comes in mobz of 10 as I hope it does....You have to buy 5 to maximize unitz...but then you will have 5 left over models...I guess a couple will be the extra nobz?
well i got sad and bought some kommandos from the octarius set from ebay. The sprue seem to come with 10 kommandos. Whether you get 10 when they are released seperately i have no idea.
on kommandos... unless you are playing at GW then if you have a friend with a resin printer you can have a small build plate of quality bits to convert some boyz bodies into them pretty easily. heck they can do full bodies to as single prints if you find good STLs. may need to pay for some resin in either case, but i just did the bitz for 15 kommandos for a friend and i used maybe $1.00 worth of resin it was trivial enough and took less time to print than the 2 hours we were playing a game for.
I only use bikers for their speed/durability and their ability to tie things up in CC and not care about retaliatory fire. The Deffkoptas on the other hand are capable of inflicting serious dmg to a host of units. 150pts gets you 3 and you AVERAGE 12 shots and 4 hits, 3.3 wounds and 2.2 wounds for 2.2 dead Marines, in CC they get 27 attacks at S5 -1AP. They do dmg in both phases, they can ramming speed charge, they can fly, they have built in ramshackle and can have easy access to -1 to hit. Honestly I think they are slightly over priced in a competitive meta but not by much at all. In the new Army of Renown they are going to be amazing.
You have a valid point considering the army of renown rules giving an extra 3 attacks per model.
However, the army of renown gives a strong point in favor of the warbikes by making them obsec. Why not use both units, in that case? For me, the appeal of the koptas is the fact that they can fly.
1. Deffdreads and Killa Kans on the scene again.
2. Freebootas are definitely not dead.
3. AoR is also there with the expected list
4. Killrigs just as an option in Freebotas list.
5. Some nonsences in the comments as usually…
Ork buggy meta seems to be shifted to “as usually but less planes and take something, that can fight on the ground” - kans, dreads, rigs…
Semper krumps under the radar yet…..
Orks took a significant hit in both placings and win rates.. freebooters still seem ahead of other ork lists but I have hope for speedmob. I don’t know why trite didn’t take the freebooter banner, and I would have dropped 1 buggy for a max biker unit, but that’s the list I want to build.
Unfortunately I just realized I can’t play 2x wazbom since all I have is a magnetized wazbom and a magnetized Dakkajet (the old kit before wazbom)… and I can’t buy another wazbom since we can never have 3x aircraft lol.
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Afrodactyl wrote: All I'm getting from that article is that Drukhari and GK still rule the roost as top tier armies, people are losing interest in AdMech (or have figured out how to deal with them), Tyranids are going to be a problem going forward, and that Space Marines live on in various flavours of rogue lists.
Oh, and Orks aren't and weren't nearly as much of an issue as people said they are/were.....
Pretty Much and I Love how they gloss over the fact drukari have the best win rate by a large margin.. they are once again 65%+ win rate… it’s so annoying considering they literally freaked out about orks winning that one tournament.
SemperMortis wrote: I really want to play a GT just to get my alphork strike list a test at that level Not to mention it would piss off all the right people. A Good friend of mine who goes regularly to GTs is furious at Buggy spam, so it would be hilarious to have him complain about Alphork strike.
how does that list of yours look these days? You still running 3 groups of trukk boys?
TedNugent wrote: …..
However, the army of renown gives a strong point in favor of the warbikes by making them obsec. Why not use both units, in that case? For me, the appeal of the koptas is the fact that they can fly.
You need to take them both. Try to make the AOR list. You take everything in almost max numbers and you are happy you are on 2k.
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Tomsug wrote: The truth is, immediately after I saw the new monopose boys kit, I' ve bought all the old boyz available in Prague. About 10 boxes. These spare parts are just too valuable…
Hey guys! I did a check and old Boyz are still available. Stores here can still order the old sets from GW. And if the picture is right, GW eshop still sells only old boyz as the separate box.
So my recommendation is - buy some boxes! Even if you have enough boyz. It is a great box for conversions etc. Infaltion is rising. It' s a pitty to have a money in the shelf. It' s better have there some great models that will be OOP soon
Hello all, I’ve been away from the hobby for quite a few years, and wow, everything is so complicated now, haha! Detachments and combat points… wah! I can see buggies and fliers are the greatness of our army right now, and wagons are mediocre compared to KillRigs… sadly I have a good amount of looted vehicles, wagons and trukks, all being built up from the times of Codex Armageddon. I want to use this mechanized force to build a fun list to play with friends, using the models I have, instead of buying new ones. Stuff I have: 4 battlewagons with various upgrades (demolisher kannon, deffrollas, open topped, ‘ard case, all mounted on LandRaider chassis), 2x looted wagons (Basilisk and Rhino with Leman Russ gun) 4 trukks (8 old ones I could use for buggies) 9 warbikes, 3 deffkoptas, 5 mek guns (stand ins), various boyz (including elites and fast attack)
This is the first draft of an Armored Krumpany list. I basically threw in stuff I wanted to play with really, but I can see that some transports are missing someone to actually transport. Too much MSU? I wanted to test the wagon configurations. Mek rides in Bonebreaka and teleports into the battle, MANz jump into the deffrolla wagon, Warboss in MA into a trukk or with MANz, gretchins into one wagon, for objective grabbing and stuff. I really do miss my 20x shoota boyz in a wagon setup. I really feel like I should throw stuff into the wagons, to have multiple "same scary" target priorities. How about removing stuff to get boyz in, or possibly tankbustas / burnas?
2000pts list
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment - Deathskulls
HQ Big Mek in Mega Armour
Dead Shiny Shoota, Tellyport Blasta Opportunist, Warlord
Troop
10 Trukkboyz
Trukk
Elite
5 Kommandos
Heavy Support
Bonebreaka
Mek Gunz
Kustom Mega Kannon
Patrol Detachment - Deathskulls
HQ Warboss on Bike
Da Killa Klaw, ExtraGubbins
Troop
10 Trukkboyz
Trukk
Elite
3 MegaNobz
Fast Attack
3 DeffKoptas
3 Warbikers
Heavy Support
Battlewagon
‘ard Case, Deff Rolla, Fortress on Wheels
Kannonwagon
Supa-Kannon
Patrol Detachment - Deathskulls
HQ Warboss in Mega Armour
‘Ard as Nails, Da Krushin’ Armour, Big Boss, Extra Gubbinz, Trukk Boyz
ivalde wrote: Hello all, I’ve been away from the hobby for quite a few years, and wow, everything is so complicated now, haha! Detachments and combat points… wah! I can see buggies and fliers are the greatness of our army right now, and wagons are mediocre compared to KillRigs… sadly I have a good amount of looted vehicles, wagons and trukks, all being built up from the times of Codex Armageddon. I want to use this mechanized force to build a fun list to play with friends, using the models I have, instead of buying new ones. Stuff I have: 4 battlewagons with various upgrades (demolisher kannon, deffrollas, open topped, ‘ard case, all mounted on LandRaider chassis), 2x looted wagons (Basilisk and Rhino with Leman Russ gun) 4 trukks (8 old ones I could use for buggies) 9 warbikes, 3 deffkoptas, 5 mek guns (stand ins), various boyz (including elites and fast attack)
This is the first draft of an Armored Krumpany list. I basically threw in stuff I wanted to play with really, but I can see that some transports are missing someone to actually transport. Too much MSU? I wanted to test the wagon configurations. Mek rides in Bonebreaka and teleports into the battle, MANz jump into the deffrolla wagon, Warboss in MA into a trukk or with MANz, gretchins into one wagon, for objective grabbing and stuff. I really do miss my 20x shoota boyz in a wagon setup. I really feel like I should throw stuff into the wagons, to have multiple "same scary" target priorities. How about removing stuff to get boyz in, or possibly tankbustas / burnas?
2000pts list
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment - Deathskulls
HQ Big Mek in Mega Armour
Dead Shiny Shoota, Tellyport Blasta Opportunist, Warlord
Troop
10 Trukkboyz
Trukk
Elite
5 Kommandos
Heavy Support
Bonebreaka
Mek Gunz
Kustom Mega Kannon
Patrol Detachment - Deathskulls
HQ Warboss on Bike
Da Killa Klaw, ExtraGubbins
Troop
10 Trukkboyz
Trukk
Elite
3 MegaNobz
Fast Attack
3 DeffKoptas
3 Warbikers
Heavy Support
Battlewagon
‘ard Case, Deff Rolla, Fortress on Wheels
Kannonwagon
Supa-Kannon
Patrol Detachment - Deathskulls
HQ Warboss in Mega Armour
‘Ard as Nails, Da Krushin’ Armour, Big Boss, Extra Gubbinz, Trukk Boyz
Troop
10 Gretchin
Elite
5 Kommandos
5 Kommandos
Heavy Support
Gunwagon
Da Booma, Deff Rolla
Mek Gunz
Kustom Mega Kannon
Filter Semper Mortis in this thread. He has a great Alphork list and it seems you could have +/- the models you need for this list.
Skip the Gunwagon option at all. It' s clearly the underdog if you compare it with the Kannonwagon (or anything else in fact - Gunwagon seems to be the new Mekboy Workshop) and you can play the same models as Gunwagon or Kannonwagon I guess out of the GTO. Play the Kannowagonf from FW book, just check the FAQ for this book from this autumn, important upgrades to work with the new codex. Kannonwagon is a very good unit right now.
Deffrolla BW. - use the vanila BW with deffrolla and put 5 MANz or 10 Boyz + 10 gretchkins. Opponent will shoot your wagon down, grots die during Emergency disembark for 2 Cp and you protect your precious MANz and put them up to 6” away from the wagon. If you play them es Deathskulls, you just steal the objective behind enemy lines with your 5 hard to kill obsec MANz. Good job Bonebreaker is too expensive and brings nothing so interesting.
Koptas and warbikers are great. Kommandos too. KMK too. Warbosses too - btw there is another trick - take 3 detachement, Trukkboyz in each of them. In 2 of these detachements, give the Trukkboy keword to some MANz or Nobz and in the third have trukkboy Warboss = after that he can give +1 to hit to them. Not mandatory, but a nice option. Semper use warbosses in trukks as the second wave unit without Trukkboy keyword.
ivalde wrote: Hello all, I’ve been away from the hobby for quite a few years, and wow, everything is so complicated now, haha! Detachments and combat points… wah! I can see buggies and fliers are the greatness of our army right now, and wagons are mediocre compared to KillRigs… sadly I have a good amount of looted vehicles, wagons and trukks, all being built up from the times of Codex Armageddon. I want to use this mechanized force to build a fun list to play with friends, using the models I have, instead of buying new ones. Stuff I have: 4 battlewagons with various upgrades (demolisher kannon, deffrollas, open topped, ‘ard case, all mounted on LandRaider chassis), 2x looted wagons (Basilisk and Rhino with Leman Russ gun) 4 trukks (8 old ones I could use for buggies) 9 warbikes, 3 deffkoptas, 5 mek guns (stand ins), various boyz (including elites and fast attack)
This is the first draft of an Armored Krumpany list. I basically threw in stuff I wanted to play with really, but I can see that some transports are missing someone to actually transport. Too much MSU? I wanted to test the wagon configurations. Mek rides in Bonebreaka and teleports into the battle, MANz jump into the deffrolla wagon, Warboss in MA into a trukk or with MANz, gretchins into one wagon, for objective grabbing and stuff. I really do miss my 20x shoota boyz in a wagon setup. I really feel like I should throw stuff into the wagons, to have multiple "same scary" target priorities. How about removing stuff to get boyz in, or possibly tankbustas / burnas?
Tomsug has already given good advice, the gunwagon is a rather big disappointment, so just run all of yours as kannonwagons - they feel how a proper ork wagon with a huge gun should feel.
Outside of that, I guess you could make a list like that work. However, as someone with way to many battlewagons myself, I have to tell you that the days of bringing four of them are over. You can get away with one bonebreaka or battlewagon, upgrade it with fortress and put your MANz or burnas inside and then have a kannonwagon or two to support it, but any more and you will find yourself running out of passengers worth transporting. If you are a decent converter, you could also build a weirdboy tower for one of your wagons and just have it count as kill-rig. I believe one of the old apoc books had a model like that.
3 warbikes by themselves also don't do a whole lot, maybe you could find something else to spend these point on, or at least up them to 5.
Another idea for conversion is turning your old trukks into squig buggies, they look close enough and are essentially just a trukk with a bunch of crew, squigs and one fancy gun. Be aware that a recent emergency nerf limited them to bring a maximum of one unit with up to three buggies.
2 kannonwagons sitting in the corners of your deploy, screen and iritate the opponent by shooting down something on the other side of table are a good choice.
I did a comparison of damage per point between Kannonwagon and KMK. On the paper, KMK are significantly better. But honestly… in the real game:
1. KMK are sitting ducks with 36” range. Cannot move significantly. 30-40% chance of no targets.
2. All Mek Gunz dies super fast, because a lot of people - as someone here said - have PTSD from smashagun spam from the last year.
Result? My two Kannonwagons shoot for 3 turns at least every game. They shoot every turn, because thanks their 12”M and 60” range they find the target. On the other side, my KMK shots no more than 2 turn with a high chance of no target in one of these turns.
Plus kill the 16W T7 3+ models on the end of the map is a pain. Kill 6W T5 5+ is sitting on the edge of the deploy to the midfield is significantly easier.
Don' t speak about the big shootas, that is the bonus.
And in some lists, you can choose them for To The Last secondary, which is super cool.
Trukks are fine. Build a list about them. Convert them to squigbuggies is also cool
A weird thought struck me from a guy wanting to make a non competitive speed freeks army.
Is that even possible? I mean barring the battlewagon that has nothing to transport and the gunwagon which sucks, basically all other units that you HAVE to use in your army, are pretty damn good.
So no matter how you put together a speed freeks army, id wager you would actually have to think pretty hard to make a list thats not down right hard to deal with.
Im not saying you could close your eyes and bam! its competitively, but its actually really difficult to put together a regular: lets have fun casual list" when doing speed freeks.
unless you're trying real hard to put wagons in it.
Beardedragon wrote: A weird thought struck me from a guy wanting to make a non competitive speed freeks army.
Is that even possible? I mean barring the battlewagon that has nothing to transport and the gunwagon which sucks, basically all other units that you HAVE to use in your army, are pretty damn good.
So no matter how you put together a speed freeks army, id wager you would actually have to think pretty hard to make a list thats not down right hard to deal with.
Im not saying you could close your eyes and bam! its competitively, but its actually really difficult to put together a regular: lets have fun casual list" when doing speed freeks.
unless you're trying real hard to put wagons in it.
Assuming you mean the AoR list: as you said, I don't think it's really doable unless you actively just spam battlewagons and gunwagons in a spearhead. There's only two HQ options, which work in any combination, and then just fill a spearhead or two with basically any combination of bikers, koptas and buggies.
Maybe if you took one of each buggy and loaded up on Kustom jobs for everything. But even then you'd have to fill the rest of the points with bikers and koptas, which are more than capable of pulling their weight.
Beardedragon wrote: A weird thought struck me from a guy wanting to make a non competitive speed freeks army.
Is that even possible? I mean barring the battlewagon that has nothing to transport and the gunwagon which sucks, basically all other units that you HAVE to use in your army, are pretty damn good.
So no matter how you put together a speed freeks army, id wager you would actually have to think pretty hard to make a list thats not down right hard to deal with.
Im not saying you could close your eyes and bam! its competitively, but its actually really difficult to put together a regular: lets have fun casual list" when doing speed freeks.
unless you're trying real hard to put wagons in it.
I think you are probably right. I currently play a deffskull list which has just one of every fast attack choice we have plus some HQ and trukk boyz. Most weaker players get completely curb-stomped by it so I have to actively downgrade it to have enjoyable games.
The speed mob adds to that problem with their limited choices - most collections don't really give you a choice on how to build it, so you can't just take a wagon full of flash gits or something like that.
Well, I guess you could go hard on nob bikers
So trying to make a speed freeks list in the Battlescribe app, and i get i get refunded my first outrider. But i wanted to go outrider and patrol, but the app yells at me for not having any troop choices which i cant.. pick.
So my question is, can we not get any patrols due to lack of troop choices or is it just the app doing weird stuff?
I dont have the Critical mass book so i cant really tell.
So trying to make a speed freeks list in the Battlescribe app, and i get i get refunded my first outrider. But i wanted to go outrider and patrol, but the app yells at me for not having any troop choices which i cant.. pick.
So my question is, can we not get any patrols due to lack of troop choices or is it just the app doing weird stuff?
I dont have the Critical mass book so i cant really tell.
Troops are Boys and Grots.
Neither of which, to my knowledge, you can take in an Army Of Renown for Orks.
.
