Originally posted by Rob0362 on Warseer.

The Wizards sound nice.

The new plastics being 'cost-affordable' is gibbery-[see forum posting rules]. Probably meaning that they won't be any more than twice the cost of the metal models they replace.

The DE aren't dead - I wonder if they'll get their Codex before Orks.

The 5/10 combat squad rule continues the trend. Basically it seems that the new design team is going out of their way to spit on the work of the people they replaced and mark their territory. By the time C:SM v.4.15.1.A comes out though, the situation might be reversed.

"New Focus is Rules in Line with the Background and Models in Line with the Rules." gobbley-[see forum posting rules] again. Completely meaningless. Presumably GW is saying that their old focus was rules out of line with the background and models out of line with the rules. If so, I guess this approach is a bit more sensible.

CSM Codex this fall eh?
Time to rally the Waaaagh.
Edit h, and plastic veterans.
Now where did I leave that Spirit of Vengeance?
*Scrabbles around under the desk*

I've been working hard on my LatD army this last week, keeping in mind that it may not be around.  Glad to see they're keeping it!!

Yeah, also glad they're keeping renegades/LATD.

Sorry that they're not redoing Empire knights, but there are so many other options out there at this point (Gamezone, Perry Minis, etc.) that one can get one's fix otherwise.

DE not dead? Sure...

Affordable? No comment...

Plastic marine veterans? Hooray! We're that much closer to never having to worry about new marine plastics again! I can't wait until they've finally come around to the plastic space marine special character sprues and move onto giving us plastic things that aren't wearing power armour.

I hope the kit is cool though, from what I've seen of the new veteran models painted over on Warseer the kit looks really nice.

Is there anything in the Space Marine line which isn't plastic?

I like the Renegade/Space Marine Chaos codex idea, though.

Greets
Schepp himself

Pfft.
I'd like it if it came out after orks.
I know all the reasons for the space marine dominance, but I still hate it.

Anyone have any idea on effect what the proposed Codex: Space Marine Redux is going to have on the traits?

Will we even be able to make a non-codex force anymore?

Will one of the traits be the ability to NOT have to take a 5/10 squad to get a special/heavy?

Will one of the traits be the ability to field an 8 man force, thereby making it stay scoring longer without having to pay the extra 30 points for the 2 "extra" marines?

Just curious...

You can see what is supposedly the plastic Veterans HERE on the Bolter & Chainsword.

Gorsh, when are we gunna get our plastik Drop Podz an plastik BaneBlade an Thundear Hawk?!?!? Gee DumBya, you are 2 sl0w!!!! My SPasE MAhRUNEz need more PLASTICK!!!!!!1!!one!!! *pounds fists onto table with a high pitched screeching*

We Interupt this post with breaking news from GW HQ:
Don't worry folks, we'll be getting to Space Orks right after we get to Red Space Marines, Spikey Marines, Marines of Many Colours, Naughty Humans, Grey Marines, Gothik Space Elfs, Some other marines we forgot about, Space Robots, Space Bugz (cuz they're broken!), Space Elfs Redux (whoops!) and then Orks. We're having problems with their models, we're too busy working on Space Marines. Look forward to them Fall 2016! Maybe. Until then, Enjoy our Latest Space Marine offering! It's Plastic, which is more cost affordable (though we'll still charge you the same or more than it's metal equivalent).

as if in new, you mean old then you might have something. 5 and or 5/10 squads have been around for quite some time. In fact, the first real army lists they created you could only buy marines in 10 man squads, but then break them down into 5 man "combat" squads. So if you mean spitting on all the work from before, then you should probably reverse your stance.

Huh? Space Marines have been able to ignore that idiotic combat squads crap for close to a decade. It was one of the best decisions GW made in the switch from 2nd to 3rd edition.

 

 

Hands out the cheeze to go with the whine.

It began that way. In the original RT book and Book of the Astronomican, that was the way squads were set. Sorry, but I didn't think it was that great of a decision to change it. All variable number squads do is allow for min/maxing. Even in the real world the forces will try and scrounge up enough bodies for full squads. It's way the org is set, and marines are even more regimented. I am glad they went back to it.

Is it really that big of a problem people here make out or are you just to lazy/unwilling to buy some more space marines. You can split the 6 las/plas squad into 2x5 las plas squads if you want... I don't see the big deal in that.

Maybe someone could enlighten me please.

Greets
Schepp himself

It's more about metagaming.

Posted By Schepp himself on 04/29/2007 3:31 PM
Is it really that big of a problem people here make out or are you just to lazy/unwilling to buy some more space marines. You can split the 6 las/plas squad into 2x5 las plas squads if you want... I don't see the big deal in that.

Maybe someone could enlighten me please.

Greets
Schepp himself

Basically.

My Marine army is/was finished. I have a couple of 6 or 8-man squads. As each Marine has individual squad markings and insignia, it's a major pain in the ass to need to repaint them.

Alternatively, I'd need to paint up 14 more Marines. That would take a month or two to do and would detract from time I could spend painting my other armies.

It's a pain in the ass either way.

Posted By Toreador on 04/29/2007 3:22 PM
It began that way. In the original RT book and Book of the Astronomican, that was the way squads were set. Sorry, but I didn't think it was that great of a decision to change it. All variable number squads do is allow for min/maxing. Even in the real world the forces will try and scrounge up enough bodies for full squads. It's way the org is set, and marines are even more regimented. I am glad they went back to it.

Bzzzzt. Wrong. The original RT book had no army lists (aside from what they set up for the "Battle at the Farm" scenario, and that was, well, a scenario). The Book of the Astronomicon  and the Compendium did have army lists (White Scars and Index Astartes respectively), and yes, those lists were fixed at 10 or 5 man squad sizes but not only did they have more options available to them as squads, in those days you could still write up your own lists with as many or as few marines in a squad as you liked, so long as you followed the DIY rules and paid the proper points. 

And of course you like it, you like everything GW does, even raising their prices.

1. The new Vets are metal. I asked the question in the seminar.

2. The new Terms. are Chaos Terminators gorgious.

2. HE are the next Fantasy book and they will be losing intrigue. Huzza!
2a. HE rares will be useable..."more inline with the fluff"; when I asked what that meant I was told they should be able to hold up chaos chosen for atleast a turn or two. Adam Troke's fav unit is the pheonix guard. I asked if Ill want them or another repearter bolt thrower...he said things had been shuffled around in their catagories and smiled??? My assuption is rare B throwers.
2b. All CAV lists will be possible, no mention of viable.
2b. no new archers...same old ugly ones had to pry that out of him.

3. Expect the new Marine book whenever it comes out to mirror the combat sqauds and terminator of the DAs. This was funny as some gigantic kid was whining, scoffing, and shaking his head over the DAs and tried to punk out Mr Troke. The guest was kind and replied with a sorry you feel that way get over it and play the new rules response. Made me laugh to see some gamer kid get his Cheerios peed in.

4. Codex Renegades isnt gong to be just Chaos. There will be options for those who have turned from the Imperium. Specificially mentioned were Red Corsiars...someone asked about the Fallen and was rebuffed with an "are they really chaos"...So hmmm.

5. New Wizards are awsome the painted examples, one of each college, were realy cool. Waaaay better them anything currently released and better than the online picks... My fav was the Egyptian themed Mage. Sorry I cant remember his school?
5a. The sprues looked like you get all the mages in one box though. I guess they can cast the sprues and break them to put in boxes but I dont know of them doing this anywhere else.

6. Eavy Metal Painter Kirsten Williams was given 7 days to paint her 1 Harliquin. When she was done, used it all, she said she needed a vacation from the diamond work.

Heard a lot of complaints from the Tourny side...late start no points being distributed at the end. Too much terrain??? O well I had fun. $40? not sure but Im not complaining.

Posted By Brother CPT Ginn on 04/29/2007 4:08 PM

Heard a lot of complaints from the Tourny side...late start no points being distributed at the end. Too much terrain??? O well I had fun. $40? not sure but Im not complaining.

What the hell, to much terrain at a GW run Tourny.  Good lord the old GT's only had 6-8 small to medium items of terrain.  Must have been alot of stationary gunlines armies there. 

Posted By Toreador on 04/29/2007 3:22 PM
All variable number squads do is allow for min/maxing. Even in the real world the forces will try and scrounge up enough bodies for full squads.

Well, it's the game designers' fault they made a system where 6-man squads are more effective than 10-man.

The tables had the same amount of terrain they usually have at GD tournaments, with one main difference. They basically made everything size 3 area terrain. They also never collected anyone's army lists, so any mistakes were up to the participants to figure out.

I was under the impression that Troke wasn't sure about what was going to happen with the LATD. I could be wrong though.

There was a great moment when someone flat out asked "Why did you make the Dark Angels suck?" Or something to that effect. The look on Troke's face was priceless.

And is it just me, or has the Golden Daemon quality and turnout for Atlanta seriously gone down? There were only 6 warhammer regiment entries.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/29/2007 2:37 PM
You can see what is supposedly the plastic Veterans HERE on the Bolter & Chainsword.

Those models are metal.

The big giveaway is the way the rivets are shaped on the legs and torsos. On plastic models, the shape of the rivets stretches out as they progress around the curve so there is no cutaway behind them that would cause problems in a steel mould, whereas the rivets on metal models stay rivet-shaped no matter where they are.

And of course you like it, you like everything GW does, even raising their prices.

Whaaaah.

You do realize that under the new rules and the adjusted points costs, you use fewer models for Space Marines armies? So GW isn't tying product to sales....They could easily have made SM squads 20 to a man for the same points cost to make more money.

You need to stop being such a baby about the prices. Time and time again, every post wha wha wha.

Go play golf.

Who's the bigger fool: the fool, or the fool that trolls him?

Well, I guess I won't be needing to use that green paint any time soon. Those wizards are quite nice, though.

I did say 'supposedly'

Here's my two cents on combat squads, hopefully it'll make sense.

1) DA have them, BTs don't need use the same structure, BA are getting them, and UMs are next (allegedly)
2) Basic space marines have bolters, which are rapid fire, which are better at shooting than at assaulting.
3) Shooting units should be optimized to provide for best shooting.
4) units that can't be optimized for their role won't be used
5) Why would anybody use tactical squads?

I mean, take this progression to the end. Tacs suck at HtH, the fist can keep them in it but they'll get wiped by any dedicated assault unit. The only tactical squads I see at Tournaments are small, 5-8 man squads with LC/PG. Take those away and I assure you that nearly every competitive SM list will have two five man scout squads with snipers and ML for troops.

Now, if space marines get the total nerf pacakge that DA got (and no matter who you tilt your head, at best their a gimmick army, at worst they're the least competitive of the new codices), than the whole army bites, and we deal with it. Otherwise, you'll see even more points dumped into termies, tornados, dreads, devs, etc.

Finally, Competitive players are just that: competitive. If they nerf space marines, which it looks like they might, than we'll play whatever the strongest power armoured list is. If they have to be called "Renegades" to be good, than that's what we'll do.

Now, clearly, I'm extrapolating a ton out of a single rumoured data point. I think that tac squads should be the heart of every space marine force, even the competitive ones. Combat squads is not, however, the way to encourage players to field fluffy armies.

Since I"m guessing most 40k players have at least one SM army, this is going to affect a lot of people. And while SMs have been the top of the heap for a couple of years now, don't forget that the 3rd ed. SM codex wasn't that strong. Everybody played BTs, BAs, or Wolves. Arguably shooty SMs are too strong. As others have pointed out, nothing that couldn't be fixed by toning down Assault Cannons.

Finally, the debate about the ancient rules for combat squads is kind of sketchy, since even in 2nd ed you could take a lot more options to make even five man squads viable (grenades, enhanced HtH weapons, etc.). Also, no other army in 40k mandates squad sizes. Even the IG allows for remnants squads. what combat squads state is that all space marine detachments take casualties in five man increments. Of course, allowing one squad 6-9, and the rest 5 or 10 would solve that.

Posted By Polonius on 04/29/2007 8:45 PM
The only tactical squads I see at Tournaments are small, 5-8 man squads with LC/PG. Take those away and I assure you that nearly every competitive SM list will have two five man scout squads with snipers and ML for troops.

That's why scouts are going to Elites!  Ha!  GW is always one step ahead of you!!

What is going to happen with Razorbacks? my memory of 2nd Ed was that you bought ALL squads as 10man squads and then before the game you broke them into 5man squads, does that mean the only way to take an RB is to get a commander with a 5man command squad?? tha seems like a silly notion.

RB say they are good for 6dudes that just doesn't fit the 5/10 squad size ...

It's all part of Jervis' master plan to bring 40k in line with Epic Armageddon.

Posted By Toreador on 04/29/2007 3:22 PM
It began that way. In the original RT book and Book of the Astronomican, that was the way squads were set.

And it was that way in 2nd Ed, where in your average 1500-2000 point game, a Tactical squad cost 300 points before any upgrades. Realising how bad that was, GW later released rules for 5-man squads at 150 points, so Marine players could field some more squads. A good decision.

They then took that decision further into the variable squad sizes, something that has Marines far more flexible. Now they're regressing, to the detriment of the army.

BYE

The question is, will Chaos Space Marines get the combat squad rule too?

Yep Nyarl, the RT book had no lists, but the Book of the Astronomicon did, and referenced the combat squads rule in the main RT book. If more options you mean 2 for most squads, then you are correct.Such as a tactical squad being able to be made into a "missle" squad or jump pack squad. It is fun reading the old fluff for the White Scars and how they helped defeat those evil servants of chaos the Hive Fleet Behemoth. Even the DA have more options in the current list. Considering that was the only list, yes you could just make armies out of whatever, but really, you can do that now. No cop holding a gun to your head.

Sucks the new vets are metal. Even though they look better, why remake in metal what already was in metal? Different options? Kinda silly.

They really need to redo the plastic High Elf kits. I'll keep using my old ones. No reason to upgrade to those. I do hope the High Elf foot list becomes viable.

Really curious to see what Codex Renegades will be. GW has for far too long ignored a major part of their fluff without having Imperial world turned renegade lists. Hopefully this will cover a good chunk of it. I have hopes, but don't expect much there. I am curious though...

I would actually guess that combat squads is just old fluff coming back. I would hazard a guess that Jervis likes 5 and 10 man marine units. It just happened to kill two birds with one stone for the designers.

There is one major problem for combat squads and that is escalation. Attaching vehicles to the squad in escalation pretty much negates any bonus combat squads gives. Too much of a detriment, so you almost have to only assign razorbacks to a 5 man squad, and thus not giving you the heavy. But the razorback can give you that heavy and mobility. So in a way you can see the balance and trade offs there. It's a wonky list to try plan for.

Skyth, I really wonder how that book will be organized too. I heard they were dropping the squads being the magic chaos number, but will they be shoe horned into regimented combat squads? Seems very unchaosy, but it will show how the design team is thinking. Then we have orks.....

Posted By skyth on 04/30/2007 2:26 AM
The question is, will Chaos Space Marines get the combat squad rule too?

Of course. Don't you know that after the Heresy, Abbadon and ... uhh... let's say Alpharius, as he never got to do anything cool, well they got together and wrote the Codex Diabolicus, a ancient and evil tome that dictates how all Legions would operate.

The tome had three tennents:

1. Field 5 and 10 man squads - by copying our loyalist brothers on purposes we are being non-conformist conformists, thereby we remain Chaotic.
2. Only armies that field special characters can take Cult squads as troops.
3. No daemon is allowed to be different to any other - this, again, allows us to be non-conforming conformists.

Torador - I hope they rerelease the same plastic High Elves, only 10 to a box rather than 20, and don't drop the price. Then you can celebrate the great deal we get.

BYE

You are correct in assuming that if the models were actually good looking, and had a lot more options in the kit, that I would be glad if they released them 10 to a box. Not ecstatic if it costed more, but models worth buying are worth paying for more than models that suck.

I'll throw the party in your honor H.B.M.C.

So the new "alternative" is being conformist, making conformists look alternative thus making the renegades Imperialists and the Imperialists renegades? I actually hope they do not push combat squads on chaos. Quite silly for a rag tag bunch.

Combat Squads reduce Tactical squads to really only being good at one thing: Rapid Firing and then absorbing a charge with a PF Sarge.

They work well in a Rhino, and if you like Mechanized Marines - this isn't a terrible thing. If you don't like that, then yeah it totally sucks. It seriously nerfs Marines in the context of being competitive with Nids, Eldar, & Tau. And probably the new Chaos book as well (assuming Demons get Rending or something similar and Demon Bombs stick around).

On the plus side, 10 Marines with a PF sarge are pretty good in assault. Granted, that's only because a Hidden Power Fist is awesome, and you've got 9 casualties to soak up the damage. Not even the best assault units in the game (that will get to you in any numbers) can kill enough Marines before the fist swings. Not that the Fist is all that great against all the assault units you're worried about (Harlies, Stealers, Orks, Gaunts, etc) but it's still a damn fine option.

Basically it forces you to build a Marine list very differently than you'd normally do, at least from the SAFH variety.

What it boils down to is the fact that while Tactical squads got neutered, Devastators became awesome, in fact better suited to the roll that the Las/Plas squads used to fill for a marginal (but fair) increase in points cost.

I expect to see many lists running into the 2x10 Devs with either 4 Lascannons or 4 ML's in each; combat squadded out. I know that's what I'm going to run when the Redux hits.

After that is "filled" in alist, you'll see people go for the standard kit as they see fit (either Assault Marines, Termies, Speeders, etc).

The only problem I really see with Combat Squads is that it forces Devs to be the stock choice for a shooty marine army, and thus leaves you needing to fill your troops slot with something that's pretty inefficient for what you probably want to do. But if Scouts stay as troops in SM redux, then they'll probably be fine.

Posted By skyth on 04/30/2007 2:26 AM
The question is, will Chaos Space Marines get the combat squad rule too?

Was telling my brother - who plays Iron Warriors - about all of the Chaos changes, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth on both of our parts.  Talking about the 5/10 space marine change, Chaos being able to take squads from 5-20 suddenly becomes entirely fluffy in relation to their loyalist brethren with their adherence to 'codex' and all that.  Same goes for the Templar breaking with codex and taking big or odd-sized squads, and I should hope the Wolves get to do the same thing.  Weirdly enough, I support the 5/10 change to Codex: SM armies, mostly because it makes those that deviate from it a little more special.

 Voodoo does have some good points on using 5/10 tactical squads though, and the possible nerf to marines in competitive play.  Also the continuance of Chaos in the top, if for 6-man las/plas alone ... plenty of 'renegade' Ultras in the future anyone?

- Boss Salvage

I don't think scouts are going to stay troops, if DA and BA are any indication.

Jury is still out for me on 10 man dev squads and or combat squadded dev squads. With the lack of heavy weapons in a list points start becoming a premium, especially at 1500pts. Adding those extra wounds on limits the points I have for other weapons and or options. Taking two fully kitted out ML dev squads is also quite expensive and quite static. Deciding how to efficiently put together a list has been a lot tougher for me now with the DA codex.

Horde bugs haven't had a chance vs a kitted out SM list for some time. If the changes come down the pipe for Redux, I see them being a lot better off, but will Bugzilla lists become the master of all? I am still undecided on how powerful they can be. Need more testing.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 3:08 AM
You are correct in assuming that if the models were actually good looking, and had a lot more options in the kit, that I would be glad if they released them 10 to a box. Not ecstatic if it costed more, but models worth buying are worth paying for more than models that suck. 

Nonsense. You'd be ecstatic. You'd finally be able to pay what the models are worth. Admit it. You lie awake at night wracked by guilt because you feel you've been ripping GW off by buying models at current prices.

You tried to give the GW red shirt more money, but he just looked at you funny. The rest of us should be happy to have the privilege, nay, the honour of giving GW more money.


Anyway, it looks like combat squads and the current "restrictions instead of options" philosophy will continue unless there's changes in the Rules Dev team before the Redux comes out. I've got my fingers crossed for a bad annual report / bad quarterly figures from the DA release so that doesn't happen.


EDIT: I'm optimistic about the High Elf book though. They have a lot of great looking, but overcosted models. Hopefully the book will be able to breathe some life into Elven infantry again.

No redshirts around here to give any money to. It's all brick and mortar indies, and Phil could always use a little more money. He has a great shop and I would like to keep him around, so maybe I should start tipping him.

Still willing to pay more for things that "look nice", and would rather not buy things that are in my opinion ugly.

It would be hard to make the High Elf book worse. Maybe the Dark Elf players will have hope if the High Elf book is good.

I'll take a few balanced options over more unbalanced ones any day.I'll also take a game where you can field any published army and actually have a chance to win a game vs any other army published. That would be nice. Otherwise 40k is just going to slide into oblivion.

Honestly Combat Squads are the best thing for Devs and it's the only way for a Combat Squad based Marine army to get any semblance of survivable heavy wepaons into the list.

2x 10 Man Devs with 4 Lascannons comes to 610 Points. That gives you EIGHT lascannons in 4 separate targets of 5 Marines.

Contrast this with say, 5 6 Man Las/Plas squads, which costs 575 under the current Marine rules.

You pay an extra 35 Points for the combat squads, but get more Lascannons. The downside is it's 10 less marines and in 4 Targets not 5, but it's still not bad since they're a lot better at 48" which lets you use range to your benefit better than before. I think you're better off with the old rules, but at least with Combat squads you still get the firepower to deal with Godzilla/Skimmer/MEQ's that you need, even more of it actually. You just have to be a lot more careful since it's in less targets with less bodies now.

But the only way you're going to get an equivalent to the shooting power that SAFH Marines used to get is going to be through Dev's. Termies are gutted, Preds with Lascannons are more expensive, and Las/Plas 10 Man squads are too expensive that you're better off with the Devs anyway.

The real problem is that you don't satisfy troop requirements with this. But your troops have entirely different roles now. Shooty Tac squads are now probably better off with a Heavy Bolter & Plasma than anything else, since you want all those bolter shots to count for something, and you get plenty of Anti-Tank from the Devs anyway. Though with all your static heavy weapons being stuck in Dev squads, you probably want the Tac Squads advancing with a PF Sarge and supporting the near now mandatory Assault Squad that you'll need for counter charge and/or Offense.

With Combat Squads I think that the new lists are going to focus on being CC oriented Drop Pod armies, or they'll have a trick like Blood Angels look to like with an army of Jump Packs.

Also I don't expect to see Chaos get hit with Combat squads. Comments from Dev Team members has so far been that armies that don't pay lip service to the Codex Astartes won't use them (BT's, SW, Chaos).

I think that Combat Squads is an attempt by Jervis to do a few things. First, stop the 5-man lasplas armies that seem to be almost compulsory. Space Marines are set up as 10 man squads with one heavy and one assault weapon in each. But people don't run fluffy armies at tournaments. They tend to minmax as much as possible. Army comp scores just weren't doing much to mitigate this.

The second thing it seems that Combat Squads were designed to do is increase the utility of Devistators and Veterans. Both these were generally lacking in SM armies - at least in my area. Only Space Wolves fielded them regularly due to split fire rules. Now everyone gets to do this.

The third thing that Jervis seems to wanted to accomplish is allow players greater tactical choices on the table. Whether Combat Squads help with this, I don't know. I've never maxed out my slots on the Force Organization chart to make splitting an option. But, it seems that two split Devistator squads and a Whirlwind (five Heavy units, basically) allows more options on the table than three units do. Scouts also seem to get a boost, being able to spread the power of pinning over a much greater area than otherwise.

As a Marine player, I can certainly sympathize with people who don't like being forced into an "all or nothing" circumstance with their army list. Often my squads will be seven or eight strong as I find the need to drop a model and put the points elsewhere. I really wish this would be a trait - or perhaps a trait to not use Combat Squads. Then there's things with the traits that really need to be reworked, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 7:17 AM


I'll take a few balanced options over more unbalanced ones any day.I'll also take a game where you can field any published army and actually have a chance to win a game vs any other army published. That would be nice. Otherwise 40k is just going to slide into oblivion.

Around here, 40k already has become irrelevant.  All the silverback/tourney gamers have long switched to WFB or even better, FOW.   I can count on 1 hand how many games of 40k I have seen played in the last few months by any of the so-called "serious" gamers.

Gets old seeing the same Tau& Eldar airforce/drop pod/lysanderwing/Godzilla lists over and over again, in friendlies or tourney games.  *shrug*

Agreed. Saturday nights were always 40k nights around here with all the tables filled with games until wee hours of the morning. Now it is a few die hards playing "friendly games" where we have a gentleman's agreement on lists. A good chunk of people have wandered off to WOW and some play other games on Sat night. WHFB, WM, FOW and boardgames. Without some major changes, 40k will fade into obscurity.

The fact that the changes are obvious to me at least make my blood boil.
Proper, tight management of releases and overall rules.
Cessation of the power armoured madness.
And getting rid of the annoying rules from the basic game.

I would love if they went back to the WHFB style system. Getting rid of march moving or running along with the way the armour saves and no modifiers for shooting really took a lot out of the game. It also killed most foot based armies. Can't hardly turn a flank with troops on the hoof anymore.

The current rules make sense for 3+ save armys and gaurd vs. gaurd or LATD.
Everyone else needs stupid tricks to balance them which lead to ridiculous or over complicated armys.
Wonder how long it'll take for the arrogant swine to admit they were wrong?

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 9:19 AM
Agreed. Saturday nights were always 40k nights around here with all the tables filled with games until wee hours of the morning. Now it is a few die hards playing "friendly games" where we have a gentleman's agreement on lists. A good chunk of people have wandered off to WOW and some play other games on Sat night. WHFB, WM, FOW and boardgames. Without some major changes, 40k will fade into obscurity.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 9:39 AM
I would love if they went back to the WHFB style system. Getting rid of march moving or running along with the way the armour saves and no modifiers for shooting really took a lot out of the game. It also killed most foot based armies. Can't hardly turn a flank with troops on the hoof anymore.

Now I know the apocalypse is upon us. Not one, but two posts by Toreador criticizing GW's ham-fisted handling of 40k! Welcome to the tribe brother! Seriously, this right here, along with the continuing dumbing down of the lists (for a system that was already "dumbed down" for simplicity sake) at the expense of even a modicum of individuality is a considerable source of discontent. Couple this with all of GW's other unfavorable business practices and you're on to why so many of us are displeased with the direction they've been heading in the past several years.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/30/2007 9:54 AM
Wonder how long it'll take for the arrogant swine to admit they were wrong?

Jervis basically already did, in so many words, at adepticon.
Atleast according to reports.

Hmmm.
I'll wait and see.
And continue to play WFB.
(Which is great)

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/30/2007 3:03 AM

Posted By skyth on 04/30/2007 2:26 AM
The question is, will Chaos Space Marines get the combat squad rule too?

Of course. Don't you know that after the Heresy, Abbadon and ... uhh... let's say Alpharius, as he never got to do anything cool, well they got together and wrote the Codex Diabolicus, a ancient and evil tome that dictates how all Legions would operate.

The tome had three tennents:

1. Field 5 and 10 man squads - by copying our loyalist brothers on purposes we are being non-conformist conformists, thereby we remain Chaotic.

You jest, but let us remember that the "Ancient Enemies" rule is now gone (allegedly). Sacred numbers are probably next on the chopping board of "Fluff-based rules" that Jervis seems to have a problem with (despite his words to the opoosite).

Nyarly: It would only be the apocalypse if you said something positive about GW.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Would you be upset if they said that 1kSons could only come in squads of 9 or 18, and got no Free Aspiring Champ?

Apply that throughout the marked squads, and take away the free champ upgrade.

Your rule is still there, but your not getting a decent benefit from it. What about Demons getting marks to make them different from eachtoher but no one has Power Weapons or Rending. They'd all be different but at the same time not all that super-effective like Demonette/Bloodletter Demon Bombs are now.

How much of this is about being upset because the nerfhammer is falling and power options are being limited, and how much of it is about having to change your army, and how much is it because of something in between?

One thing that gets me, from BOTH sides of this argument is that in actuality Fluff means little to nothing. Fluff changes to fit whatever GW wants it to be. And you know what, that's how it should be, so things don't stay stale and get old.

They wrote up two pieces of fluff to describe "Godzilla Nids" armies and what they're for - using rippers as troops and nothing but big bugs. So now that's "fluffy" but it's still an annoying army to play against and I'm pretty sure most players would agree it could use a good bit of the nerf stick. But it's "fluffy".

GW is balancing the game. I think it's actually good for the most part. The only problem is that they're doing it ONE FREAKIN CODEX AT A TIME. And there are already power and abusive codex's released for 4th edition that will not be revisited to get toned down like Marines (Nids & Eldar).

That's the only problem with this really, some armies will be gimped while the rending clowns from outer space will get to fly around in unkillable falcons with impunity and the 8 Monsterous Creature Nid army is in the background laughing away getting high on shrooms...err Orks.

nyarlathotep667 No one plays a game for 20 years and is happy with it. Here is a secret. When they changed the rules in 3rd, I dropped the game like a hot coal. I still painted, but I didn't play after my first several games. I hated it with a passion. I could see what they "tried" to do with the system, but I disliked the way it played. I was out of it for at least a year.

The new Epic also made me stop playing that and sell it all off. I liked my modifiers.

My hope for 40k is that it is going to be on a quick release schedule for codexes. It looks like 4 this year alone! If they can get a redux out the door, a redo of Chaos and a new ork list out, that will do a lot to even out the game. There will still be some issues, but they could be fixed. Myself, I would like to see hits on fast vehicles work the same as hull down. 1-3 pen, 4-6 glance. That is pretty much instant eldar falcon balance.

Then we have Zilla nids....

See my "Give everyone rending" thread for how we'll fix that baby.

4 Codex books? We're going to get TWO (the second will be Chaos, a year after the Eldar). With MAYBE the Ork Army Box in late December. but probably not until the DA slot next year.

With this release schedule, 5th edition will be out well before some of the Codicies.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 12:01 PM
nyarlathotep667 No one plays a game for 20 years and is happy with it. Here is a secret. When they changed the rules in 3rd, I dropped the game like a hot coal. I still painted, but I didn't play after my first several games. I hated it with a passion. I could see what they "tried" to do with the system, but I disliked the way it played. I was out of it for at least a year.

The new Epic also made me stop playing that and sell it all off. I liked my modifiers.

My hope for 40k is that it is going to be on a quick release schedule for codexes. It looks like 4 this year alone! If they can get a redux out the door, a redo of Chaos and a new ork list out, that will do a lot to even out the game. There will still be some issues, but they could be fixed. Myself, I would like to see hits on fast vehicles work the same as hull down. 1-3 pen, 4-6 glance. That is pretty much instant eldar falcon balance.

Then we have Zilla nids....

Three posts in the same thread! And I agree on all counts! AIEEEE!!!!!!!!! I took a hiatus mid-way through 2nd ed for a mixture of reasons, mostly social, and was shocked when I returned a few years later after 3rd ed had been out for a couple years. But by the late 90's, Chambers & Co. had reintroduced a lot of the fluffy goodness and enough granularity to the ruleset to make it at least enjoyable as a simple beer & pretzel game. But the lack of modifiers (both armor saves and to hit), standardized movement, and excessively dumbed down vehicle rules killed it for all the adult gamers. I still love the 40k Universe with it's broad, encompassing ridiculously dystopian sci-fi imagery and I continue to model, but damn do I despise the current state of the rules.

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/30/2007 11:31 AM
Nyarly: It would only be the apocalypse if you said something positive about GW.

Then perhaps you need to work on your reading comprehension as I have said plenty positive about GW in the past when they do something right.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 12:01 PM
Myself, I would like to see hits on fast vehicles work the same as hull down. 1-3 pen, 4-6 glance. That is pretty much instant eldar falcon balance.

That's a pretty good suggestion.

Anyway, I would expect 6th edition to come out before some of the less popular Codexes get done at the current rate of 2/year. Sisters and Necrons might need to wait till 7th. On the plus side, the game should be balanced by then.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 04/30/2007 1:26 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/30/2007 11:31 AM
Nyarly: It would only be the apocalypse if you said something positive about GW.

Then perhaps you need to work on your reading comprehension as I have said plenty positive about GW in the past when they do something right.

You know, for someone who regularly attacks other posters, you sure can't take criticism well.  BTW, a *wink* means its lighthearted or in jest.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Wait, GW did something right?
Oh you mean the Dark Angels.
Carry on.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 04/30/2007 1:26 PM

I took a hiatus mid-way through 2nd ed for a mixture of reasons, mostly social, and was shocked when I returned a few years later after 3rd ed had been out for a couple years. But by the late 90's, Chambers & Co. had reintroduced a lot of the fluffy goodness and enough granularity to the ruleset to make it at least enjoyable as a simple beer & pretzel game. But the lack of modifiers (both armor saves and to hit), standardized movement, and excessively dumbed down vehicle rules killed it for all the adult gamers. I still love the 40k Universe with it's broad, encompassing ridiculously dystopian sci-fi imagery and I continue to model, but damn do I despise the current state of the rules.

This is the exact same thing that I did. I played 40K from just before 2nd Ed came out, and then eventually took a break from it for a number of years, only coming back into it after I finished school when a whole bunch of my friends took it up. I had been aware of the transition from 2nd to 3rd, and the simplification was very difficult, especially of the vehicle rules. I had started playing 40K for the tanks - now the tanks were a joke.

So we muddled through third and all its problems, and then gave up after 4th came out and wrote our own rules, including expansive vehicle rules to make them more interesting.

BYE

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/30/2007 1:46 PM

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 04/30/2007 1:26 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/30/2007 11:31 AM
Nyarly: It would only be the apocalypse if you said something positive about GW.

Then perhaps you need to work on your reading comprehension as I have said plenty positive about GW in the past when they do something right.

You know, for someone who regularly attacks other posters, you sure can't take criticism well.  BTW, a *wink* means its lighthearted or in jest.

Oh yeah, I attack other posters CONSTANTLY. Why, just this morning I attacked Malfred with my tentacles, though I think he liked it (he giggled a lot). Gorsh, just look at my posting history and that's all it is, an unending litany of assaults on poor hapless GW Fanbois Like how I get called out in a thread I hadn't even posted in. But that's my fault, right? Cuz thats all I do attack and complain! Hurr! Thanx for showing me the lite, I now love Gee Dubya and everything they do is so totally awesome and it's such a bummer here cuz all you peeple spew and hate and can't see why Dark Angels aren't the kewlest mos fluffy balanced codex of awesomness evar!!!!!1!!!one!!!!


  *nudge, nudge* Right?

If you people hate GW so much then quit buying their products. Get out of my game and go play WOW or whatever. You're a bunch of OLD LADIES!!!

Posted By KhaosBob on 04/30/2007 2:56 PM
If you people hate GW so much then quit buying their products. Get out of my game and go play WOW or whatever. You're a bunch of OLD LADIES!!!

1) If you hate Dakka so much, then stop posting here.
2) It's my game. You don't deserve to play it. You certainly don't deserve to have an opinion about it.
3) WoW is boring. Replying to stupid posts on Dakka is much more entertaining.
4) I doubt anyone who has posted in this thread is female.

Posted By dienekes96 on 04/30/2007 12:29 PM
4 Codex books? We're going to get TWO (the second will be Chaos, a year after the Eldar). With MAYBE the Ork Army Box in late December. but probably not until the DA slot next year.

With this release schedule, 5th edition will be out well before some of the Codicies.

Agreed.

But then again, people count the white dwarf BA as a "release" as well....

I am not sure where Toreador is getting 4 releases from. Its all conjecture, as GW is tight lipped about what they release. But summer is very rapidly approaching. We still have no solid news of what WILL be released next, other than heresay. Chaos, Apocalypse, etc....all heresay. Even orks are just a fanciful dream at this point.

GW even seems to think it a good idea to deny rumours of the BA  WD release, even though it can only affect their sales in a positive manner (evidentally, there are no new models released for this, with the exception of a rumoured IC or two)

@ Asmodai.
Dont feed trolls who add nothing to the discussion. Et alia.

Posted By KhaosBob on 04/30/2007 2:56 PM
If you people hate GW so much then quit buying their products. Get out of my game and go play WOW or whatever. You're a bunch of OLD LADIES!!!

so thats why my boobs are down around my knees....

Posted By KhaosBob on 04/30/2007 2:56 PM
If you people hate GW so much then quit buying their products. Get out of my game and go play WOW or whatever. You're a bunch of OLD LADIES!!!

I can see that with wit of this caliber your time on Dakka will be long and distinguished.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/30/2007 2:58 PM

Posted By KhaosBob on 04/30/2007 2:56 PM
If you people hate GW so much then quit buying their products. Get out of my game and go play WOW or whatever. You're a bunch of OLD LADIES!!!

1) If you hate Dakka so much, then stop posting here.
2) It's my game. You don't deserve to play it. You certainly don't deserve to have an opinion about it.
3) WoW is boring. Replying to stupid posts on Dakka is much more entertaining.
4) I doubt anyone who has posted in this thread is female.

1) I don't hate Dakka. I just get sick of al the crying about GW.

2) If it is YOUR game then shut up and just play it. You don't know me, you don't know what I deserve. I pay my money and I play the game, I most definitely deserve an opinion.

3) Play whatever you want, It's your life (or lack there of)!

4) My mistake, I assumed from all of the complaining that you were a girl.

I'm trying to think of a coment of how victims of a tragedy should quit crying about what happened... but I can't think of one with out offending them greatly so...

When people are sick of being SHAT ON by GW after putting lots of money into the game, they have a right to complain. Alot of people love the game, and are sick of tired of being walked on over and over again. GW doesn't do anything to address or fix the issue but rather just keeps loosing money, raising prices and ignoring all the mistakes they've made. If GW was any other type of company than a gaming company there would have been several class action lawsuits by now.

Just think how things would be if GW was say.... a car manufacturer... "Well in our 2007 Land Speeder model it was doing too well so we put in crapper parts... and we raised the price! Have fun driving with square wheels"

You don't deserve to put down other peope's comments because you write like a 10 year old on wow. BTW, nice way to insult all the ladies out there. Maybe you'll grow out of that "phase" when you don't think all the girls have chooties.

davidson that's too reasonable for this thread.
Considder yourself warned.
Snoogins.

Oh my bad sorry... exuse me while I go rebuy most of my codexs because they did stealth reprints with drastic rule changes, but refuse to put out FAQ's for them. Oh at 25 dollars a pop now too.

Oh, I think I'll pick up a White Dwarf too, because the writers of the 4th edition Tyranid Codex are playing nids vs marines in a battle report! Yea they "Took Vennom cannons so they could penetrate the space marine land speeders because they are open-topped"

My post was a light-hearted response to your post about Toreador.

My intention was not to bait you or get in a fight. Please go back and look at the first post before you blow up at me.

Now that we are completely de-railing this thread, I'll get back on-topic by saying I'm glad to see that Chaos will be in 2 codexes. What are your thoughts on that?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

From what I gather so far, and that is if the Ork army box makes a release at Christmas time.

Dark Angels - out
Blood Angels (in a WD, but rules none the less) - summer
Chaos - (August- Septemberish)
Orks - Xmas

We know pretty much for sure that BA and Chaos will be out this year. Orks is on the cusp.

Posted By davidson on 04/30/2007 4:04 PM
I'm trying to think of a coment of how victims of a tragedy should quit crying about what happened... but I can't think of one with out offending them greatly so...

When people are sick of being SHAT ON by GW after putting lots of money into the game, they have a right to complain. Alot of people love the game, and are sick of tired of being walked on over and over again. GW doesn't do anything to address or fix the issue but rather just keeps loosing money, raising prices and ignoring all the mistakes they've made. If GW was any other type of company than a gaming company there would have been several class action lawsuits by now.

Just think how things would be if GW was say.... a car manufacturer... "Well in our 2007 Land Speeder model it was doing too well so we put in crapper parts... and we raised the price! Have fun driving with square wheels"

You don't deserve to put down other peope's comments because you write like a 10 year old on wow. BTW, nice way to insult all the ladies out there. Maybe you'll grow out of that "phase" when you don't think all the girls have chooties.

Like I said before, If you don't like being SHAT ON then sell your models and find another hobbie. If GW is a bunch of fools then quit following them. "Who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?" -Obi-Wan Kenobi

Class action suit?!!! Come on now.

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/30/2007 4:18 PM
Now that we are completely de-railing this thread, I'll get back on-topic by saying I'm glad to see that Chaos will be in 2 codexes. What are your thoughts on that?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well, it really depends on execution. It would be nice to have the Lost and the Damned rules conveniently placed into a Codex though.

Chaos is pretty big, so it's pretty reasonable to split it up. It might help make up for the blandness of getting rid of the cult armies and different demons.

Chaos in Fantasy is 3-4 armies, and all but one or two of them are viable (depending whether you consider the Storm of Chaos demon list a separate army). It works pretty well there - although the rules for Chaos Dwarves are getting a little dated.

That points to the biggest potential problem. The GW release schedule is awfully slow as of late. Splitting Chaos and Marines into more and more books means that it takes longer and longer for anything else to come out. Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons come to mind as armies that could use a revision. If the Renegades book pushes them back further, it's not really a win for existing players.

In theory though, I definitely think that there's enough material to warrant a 2 book release for Chaos.

KhaosBob, Luckly I bought most of my models when a box was 20 dollars or less each so I don't have to buy much these days.
As for the lawsuit... I guess you where not around when GW started to price fix their products in america. A store in Milwaukee pretty much shut down when GW refused to sell to them because it sold gw stuff at 25% off all the time. My local place had to stop selling at a 15% discount and bring it down to a 10%.

There are those reasons and many other near illegal/frowned upon business practices that GW has done.

I'm done sorry for taking this off topic. I hope 40k orcs come out for Christmas... it would be a nice gift to every 40k player.

I've always wanted to start a LatD army, but the threat of being forever unofficial and unsupported has always turned me off. I plan on picking up IA 5 this summer at GDLA, I guess one could always use the Traitor rules from that list.

Its my dream to make a Traitor gaurd and a DKoK army and then be able to re-create the battles in the book. It'll happen once I win the lottery.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By davidson on 04/30/2007 4:41 PM
KhaosBob, Luckly I bought most of my models when a box was 20 dollars or less each so I don't have to buy much these days.
As for the lawsuit... I guess you where not around when GW started to price fix their products in america. A store in Milwaukee pretty much shut down when GW refused to sell to them because it sold gw stuff at 25% off all the time. My local place had to stop selling at a 15% discount and bring it down to a 10%.

There are those reasons and many other near illegal/frowned upon business practices that GW has done.

I'm done sorry for taking this off topic. I hope 40k orcs come out for Christmas... it would be a nice gift to every 40k player.

How is that near-illegal?  A brand can dictate a MAP pricing policy and they can refuse to open an account or sell to a discounter.  That's just a strict price-control policy and it's good business sense (maybe not so good for us consumers, but good for the company).  There is nothing illegal about it.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By KhaosBob on 04/30/2007 4:27 PM

Posted By davidson on 04/30/2007 4:04 PM
I'm trying to think of a coment of how victims of a tragedy should quit crying about what happened... but I can't think of one with out offending them greatly so...

When people are sick of being SHAT ON by GW after putting lots of money into the game, they have a right to complain. Alot of people love the game, and are sick of tired of being walked on over and over again. GW doesn't do anything to address or fix the issue but rather just keeps loosing money, raising prices and ignoring all the mistakes they've made. If GW was any other type of company than a gaming company there would have been several class action lawsuits by now.

Just think how things would be if GW was say.... a car manufacturer... "Well in our 2007 Land Speeder model it was doing too well so we put in crapper parts... and we raised the price! Have fun driving with square wheels"

You don't deserve to put down other peope's comments because you write like a 10 year old on wow. BTW, nice way to insult all the ladies out there. Maybe you'll grow out of that "phase" when you don't think all the girls have chooties.

Like I said before, If you don't like being SHAT ON then sell your models and find another hobbie. If GW is a bunch of fools then quit following them. "Who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?" -Obi-Wan Kenobi

Class action suit?!!! Come on now.

Wow that's really intelligent.
I can't wait for that guy who tell us to go play golf to chime in.
(Or did he already? It's all a paradoxial blur of people whining about whining)
Dude, the point of these fora is to discuss the game. Sometimes, in a discussion, people complain. If you don't like to read about it, you can easily skip those posts.
But there isn't much reason to insult people over it, it just makes you look like a tool.
(now munch down on your feed there matey)

Come come, don't feed the troll.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 4:18 PM
From what I gather so far, and that is if the Ork army box makes a release at Christmas time.

Dark Angels - out
Blood Angels (in a WD, but rules none the less) - summer
Chaos - (August- Septemberish)
Orks - Xmas

We know pretty much for sure that BA and Chaos will be out this year. Orks is on the cusp.

T,

For my money, a release has new art, new models, and new rules.  A Codex, not an article.  If all I cared about were rules, I'd make them up myself.  I want new models.

Chaos will be Oct/Nov (Hellfury, it's basically confirmed at warseer...cover art on the GD UK ad).  But no Orks this year, and BA don't count.  They will be a 2008 release.

That's TWO Codicies in a YEAR.  At that rate, 2008 will be Orks and BA, 2009 will see Apocalypse And SM Redux (which I'll give you for free), and that still leaves DE, Necrons, Space Wolves (the one I care about the most frankly), IG (a big one), and the Inquisition.  That takes us to 2012, 8 years after 4th edition.

They need 3 a year to make sense.  4 would be better, but I know resources are tight, so three should be reasonable.  2 is not.  DA in March, and Chaos in November is a 7 month wait.  Maybe Orks will be right after Chaos, but don't bet on it.  Chaos is ALWAYS  a big release (except for the awful 3rd edition version from 1999), so expect at least 5 months until Orks (or Apocalypse, or SM Redone).  And they need to fit some WHFB in there.

So it's TWO releases in 2007.  If you want to count the BA, that's your choice.  I require models to count a release.  Rereleasing a $20 Mephiston doesn't count.

Re: the class action lawsuit...I don't think that you know what that means.  I have issues with GW myself, but that's being absurd.

What if it's a new Mephiston does it count then?

Posted By Polonius on 04/30/2007 6:11 PM
Come come, don't feed the troll.

But he looked so hungry....

I could put up with 2 releases a year, if they didn't make a balls of them, change direction halfway through an edition and then decide to redo them.
And if a second chaos codex introduces another 3+ save army, I may spit hot bile for three days.

I am counting BA, because what I am counting it for is balancing codexes overall, which is what I am worried about more than models. You can always make do with models, you can't make do without rules. I am looking at a balanced playable game here. You can make the coolest models ever, but if the rules are either too low powered or too high, they won't get much play. You need opponents who want to play to put those new models out against.

Posted By dienekes96 on 04/30/2007 6:17 PM

 (Hellfury, it's basically confirmed at warseer...cover art on the GD UK ad).  But no Orks this year, and BA don't count.  They will be a 2008 release.

Oh I agree with you Chuck. Brimstone is normally spot on, but even he is having troubles with rumours being accurate due to either misinformation (intentional or otherwise) or just uninformed. This can be surmissed due to his revision of the releases this year...twice.

Not saying it isnt going to happen, but really, GW is making me wonder if they even know what they are doing....

I am treating all rumours for what they are. Rumours.

With so many conflicting reports, we dont have the luxury of  "Confirmed rumours" as we enjoyed years and years ago.

By the way, its good to see you posting around dakka more. its nice to see a few older faces around here lately.

As much as people complain here, dakka is what you make of it.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 6:34 PM
I am counting BA, because what I am counting it for is balancing codexes overall, which is what I am worried about more than models. You can always make do with models, you can't make do without rules. I am looking at a balanced playable game here. You can make the coolest models ever, but if the rules are either too low powered or too high, they won't get much play. You need opponents who want to play to put those new models out against.

I've bought lots of singles from armies I don't play just to paint. I've also bought cool looking Reaper, Confrontation and Warmachine models I know I'll never play a game with.

If you don't care about models, you might as well play one of the Avalon Hill war games with the cardboard chits (they tend to have great rules and tons of balance). Or Panzer General for that matter.

When I play a miniatures game, the miniatures (cool looking, painted armies) are paramount.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/30/2007 7:20 PM

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 6:34 PM
I am counting BA, because what I am counting it for is balancing codexes overall, which is what I am worried about more than models. You can always make do with models, you can't make do without rules. I am looking at a balanced playable game here. You can make the coolest models ever, but if the rules are either too low powered or too high, they won't get much play. You need opponents who want to play to put those new models out against.

I've bought lots of singles from armies I don't play just to paint. I've also bought cool looking Reaper, Confrontation and Warmachine models I know I'll never play a game with.

If you don't care about models, you might as well play one of the Avalon Hill war games with the cardboard chits (they tend to have great rules and tons of balance). Or Panzer General for that matter.

When I play a miniatures game, the miniatures (cool looking, painted armies) are paramount.

Actually, you both have extremely valid points.

Your both right.

Now fight over this cookie!

*throws cookie in between asmodai and toreador*

Heh heh. He can have it, I am dieting.

Yep, both valid points, but I don't see 40k surviving in the condition it was. People are dropping in droves, and I don't think the casual buyer will be able to support 40k.

Why does anyone buy Confrontation figs. Cuz they're purty!

But the rules are ok. They could have been killer if they would have had both.

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 7:35 PM
Heh heh. He can have it, I am dieting.

Yep, both valid points, but I don't see 40k surviving in the condition it was. People are dropping in droves, and I don't think the casual buyer will be able to support 40k.

Why does anyone buy Confrontation figs. Cuz they're purty!

But the rules are ok. They could have been killer if they would have had both.

Damn, I'm dieting too.

I guess I'll feed the cookie to my cat. .... Nope. Not interested either.

I agree, having a mix is great. Confrontation rules might have been OK if they had translated them from French into English directly, instead of French -> Klingon -> English.

I don't think 40K can ever survive in the condition it was. There's too much competition now. Cleaning up the rules is part of the fight, so is continuing to offer great models, keeping up the fluff, and keeping existing players buying instead of dumping them after two years as company policy.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 04/30/2007 6:25 PM
What if it's a new Mephiston does it count then?

Yes.

I just got off the phone with a Black Shirt that said that the new Mephiston is going to be the greatest miniature that Games Workshop has ever made.  His perm is straight up gangsta, and the tears on his holster cherub's chubby cheeks will take at least 20 hours to undercoat. 

And his rules aren't too shabby, either.  As well as being a close combat terror, and a powerful psyker, even his movement has rending, therefore everwhere he has walked counts as difficult terrain for the rest of the battle.

With the new foundation paints, it cuts the undercoat time to only 10 hours.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Jester on 04/30/2007 8:26 PM

And his rules aren't too shabby, either.  As well as being a close combat terror, and a powerful psyker, even his movement has rending, therefore everwhere he has walked counts as difficult terrain for the rest of the battle.

Ha! Rending movement. Gold.

BYE

Posted By Toreador on 04/30/2007 2:51 AM
Sucks the new vets are metal. Even though they look better, why remake in metal what already was in metal?

That's because GW wants to make everything metal.  Blacker than the blackest black.  Times infinity.

Posted By dienekes96 on 04/30/2007 6:17 PM
They need 3 a year to make sense.  4 would be better, but I know resources are tight, so three should be reasonable.

Maybe 2 codices worth of models are all they think they'll be able to sell in a year?  No dumping more new releases on the market than customers will be able/willing to buy.

Posted By dienekes96 on 04/30/2007 6:17 PM
Chaos is ALWAYS  a big release (except for the awful 3rd edition version from 1999), so expect at least 5 months until Orks (or Apocalypse, or SM Redone).

Well, the latest rumor seem to suggest that the upcoming Chaos codex will be less like the current one and more like the "awful 3rd edition version from 1999" that you refer to.

If it's a big release, it should just get a longer codex.
Every faction should just get one codex, to prevent neglect.
When I was twelve, I didn't have any problem with the seconded ed codices, and they were massive.

Abs,
I have heard the Chaos Codex is going to be longer than the others. My concern for a $22 Codex is not the rules (which makes me a minority here), but the material, the art, and models that come with it. I was assuming that the Chaos release was a BIG one (100 page Codex), a major project., Maybe I am wrong. I heard NOTHING solid yet. The cover art DOES blow my skirt up through. Have to admit that.

As to the 2/year vs. 3/year...it's not just model sales, but customer interest. I doubt there are people who buy EVERYTHING GW releases. We pick and choose. Greater choice, greater sales. Like I said, 3/year feels like there is always one on the horizon. 2/year feels like a much longer wait, especially if your army isn't even near the list, and even more especially with the rumor window crackdown. It's psychological. Hey, GW's choice. But I'd be enticing gamers myself. The doldrums after the DA release, meant to inspire people to focus on the DA, were a wasteland for every other army.

Hellfury,
I always lurked, but haven't felt I had a lot to add in the last few years. I am not a tourney gamer, as Dakka seemed to be leaning. Like you, the background and mythos is what works for me. I don't do WoW, FoW, Confrontation, D&D, or Warmachine. This is my one gamer vice (besides console gaming). But I do appreciate the kind words, and I have tried to post a bit more lately. I'm not adding much, but I was proud of the new Marine Vet post. I love Marines, but I do feel bad for the Ork players

T,
I roger up on you counting BA in the WD. I see your rules point. But then will you count BA next year when they get a Codex (as one of the "two")? The WD article merely leads the real release...it's not "in addition" to it. I like the idea...shake down the rules before the Codex is finalized. But I don't count it. I am here for the models.

Yeah, rumour on Warseer was that High Elf and Chaos books were both around 104 pages.

I am with you Dienekes96. I do some competitive play, but I mostly play "fun" games. Dakka is what has started making me post more. Has to be a couple detractors to the doom and gloom. Depends on what they do with the rules. I really wouldn't mind a couple of WD lists each year, to get everything in order. I wouldn't count it next year if it is out, unless the test dex is just really bad in play.

40k isn't the end all be all either. They do release WHFB items also, along with LOTR. Too much overlap on new products is bad. Have to give people some time to save money!!

DA is probably the first time in a long time I have purchased most everything released. I did pick up quite a bit of Eldar stuff, especially some of the new sculpts. But I had a lot that would do. DA just came out with some superb kits that I just had to have.

I have mixed thoughts on mega-codexes. It's nice to have lots of fluff and art and it adds value.

On the other hand, it's a lot more to lug around to games.

I'd rather have the Codexes be the length of Codex: Assassins or Codex: Craftworld Eldar and then have a lot more books like Tactica Imperium or the Liber Chaoticas.

You still get all the art and fluff, you just don't need to lug around an unnecessary novel worth of fluff to every game.

Come on!  Carting around 50+ pounds of rules is some of the only exercise we gamers get!

I do like having all the rules and background in one place, but Asmodai DOES have a point.  Perhaps sell them in pairs, one small army list and one larger background/hobby material book.  Or even include loose-leaf army lists with reinforced holes (maybe even laminated) to put into a binder. 

Sure, I guess we, the hobbyist, could do that ourselves, but where's the love, man?!

...And this is why God gave us 6mm...

I don't think I can read six millimeter rules, Syr...

You mean microfiche?

Posted By Jester on 04/30/2007 8:26 PM

And his rules aren't too shabby, either.  As well as being a close combat terror, and a powerful psyker, even his movement has rending, therefore everwhere he has walked counts as difficult terrain for the rest of the battle.

As opposed to Lemartes, who rends the eyes of everyone that sees his model.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/01/2007 10:50 AM
You mean microfiche?

Isn't that the new Tau scout vehicle?

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/01/2007 7:00 AM
My concern for a $22 Codex is not the rules (which makes me a minority here), but the material, the art, and models that come with it.

Same here.  The problem is that the 2 are intertwined.  If something doesn't get its own rules, then not only is it not going to get models, it probably not going to feature prominently in the art or background (if at all).  This is why I'm so worried about the "vanillification" of the cult armies and daemons.  They've already relegated Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children mail order.  If they're consolidating everything into 1 simplified ruleset and doing away with the cult legions as distinct armies then what kind of model support are we supposed to expect?

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/01/2007 7:00 AM
I doubt there are people who buy EVERYTHING GW releases. We pick and choose. Greater choice, greater sales. Like I said, 3/year feels like there is always one on the horizon. 2/year feels like a much longer wait, especially if your army isn't even near the list, and even more especially with the rumor window crackdown.

I think the idea is that people will jump on the new army bandwagon and start a new force rather than wait years and years for an update to the armies they already have (in which case they'd probably only replace a few models anyway).  I'm not sure that strategy works though...

I agree that's the idea. But I think it's a bad one, and will yield less revenue, not more. As they might be finding out. People are attached to their armies. They won't just start a DA one because it's "new". They might buy a box or two for the nice plastic bits.

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/02/2007 6:21 AM
They might buy a box or two for the nice plastic bits.

I'm guilty of that.

I love the new DA models and, in all honesty, I bought the DA Command Squad box simply for that power mace bit.

BYE

I can't afford to do that.
I'd probably own most of the fantasy range that isn't elves or empire if I could.
(I'm an elf hater)

I agree that the "new army bandwagon" strategy is gakky.
If only because it causes such resentment.
I used to be enthusiastic and happy with my hobby.

As a note, talked to my locals today (based on the Chapter Council - which they guessed was a plastic kit for HQ choices...the JHall post puts the end to that) and they mentioned that Apocalypse was a Late summer release, followed by Chaos in the Fall. Brim then mentioned on warseer that Orks will be early 2008.

That means they will get 3 Codicies in a year, so my 2/year comments are refuted. Just thought I'd share.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh why no Orks?