ImAGeek wrote: It can only shoot two guns anyway can't it?
Depends on how you read the shooting rules and how you interpret them...................... its often argued about.
And wraithknights are terrible, any good player can drop one in a turn, they do great against people that don't know how to deal with them. They are so bad in competitive environments, the only time they do well is when you can spam them
Here is the full anonymous tip mentioned earlier.
Take this with a bucket of salt.
A couple insights to the new Ghostkeel model and some special rules
1. The torso can be open or closed to show a pilot inside. Both a male and female Tau are included. A good thing to possibly magnetize.
2. The Sensor Arrays are on the battlesuit look the same as the Shadowsun's.
3. The Stealth Drones carry stealth emitters underneath replacing the standard weapons.
Regarding special rules- no infiltration
-Fire Team
-Stealth
-Supporting Fire
Countermeasures. Once per game, you can disrupt the targeting of an enemy unit, if it is targeting the Ghostkeel's unit, before dice are rolled. That unit can only make snap shots during that shooting phase.
Monstrous Creatures can normally shoot two. Multitracker allows you to shoot an additional weapon. Therefore, Monstrous Creatures with multitracker can shoot three weapons. So if the Riptide had a third weapon, it could shoot it.
Yaknow i never noticed that but the people saying Riptides can fire 3 weapons are right. Though i dont think anything ever had 3 weapons without being a GMC as well.
Though i imagine thats a rule oversight since it seems nothing so far ever utilizes that. Stormsurge is a GMC so it fires everything anyway and far as we know the Ghostkeel and Riptide only have 2 guns at once.
And everyone is assuming that a multi tracker support system will do the same thing it always has.... Ohh wait, its already gone through two different rule sets, so why not a third.
The Ghostkeel is a new model, I really think it rules are not going to suck simply because GW will want to sell a few of the kits. However, I wonder how many kits will be bought simply to get the female head? I know its something I'd be interested in.
Jayden63 wrote: I really think it rules are not going to suck simply because GW will want to sell a few of the kits.
ehh, maybe not
The rules didn't suck, they just didn't provide anything new that couldnt be gotten anywhere else. The flyers were a horizontal shift model. They didn't help or hurt your list by having them in or out of your lists. As such there was no reason to get one if you didn't fall in love with the model itself.
I'm hoping the flyers do get a rewrite in their rules. Make them a more difficult choice to keep out of your list. Lots of potential there if done right.
The flyers aren't worth buying unless you like the model. I have many thousands of points (and dollars! Lol) of Tau, and have no inclination to buy the planes unless they get better.
Considering the Stormsurge is kinda mediocre i'd be surprised if the Ghostkeel wasnt Riptide-replacement fodder.
I think the reason the fliers werent crazy op is because it was released about the time GW was starting to weaken fliers. iirc starting with the Tau dex, fliers stopped being insanely strong each codex. Then 7th ed hit and made it worse lol.
The flyers don't have to be OP. Just decent will do lol. Plus, they were competing with the rest of the FA slot in the CAD, so markerlights. It's even the same problem that Piranha's have. They are competing for markerlights, and just aren't good enough to lose in preference. Now with formations allowing you to bring stuff that may not necessarily need to compete for the same slot allows you to bring markerlights and piranhas or planes or what have you. Like you could now bring tanks and broadsides with formations.
I use a full squad of piranhas every game and they never disappoint me. I actually loathe pathfinders, i rarely use them at all. Either offensive or supportive. Reason being: theyre expensive enough that when you lose them it kinda hurts and theyre a VERY high priority, easy to kill target. I commonly lose FB to them because people will divebomb for them. I hate that so damn much.
My ML support comes from drones, shas'ui's in firewarrior units, and skyrays. Yes i can only dump loads of ML support from one squad (missilepod crisis suits + ml drones) but i more want consistent coverage than tons of marks on a single unit.
Personally I prefer tetras for markerlights, and remoras if I'm bringing air. So honestly, that's where my FA slots went. Only brought Pathfinders if it was a no Forge World game.
Never used any FW models except proxied in Y'vahra. Tetras seemed kinda pricy to me but everyone gives them so much praise i may just be seeing them wrong.
Though ive wanted a Barracuda for awhile. The pricetag of the models + rulebook kinda deterred me from doing it.
Vineheart01 wrote: Considering the Stormsurge is kinda mediocre i'd be surprised if the Ghostkeel wasnt Riptide-replacement fodder.
I think the reason the fliers werent crazy op is because it was released about the time GW was starting to weaken fliers. iirc starting with the Tau dex, fliers stopped being insanely strong each codex. Then 7th ed hit and made it worse lol.
The Ghostkeel is an elite choice that comes with 2 stealth drones for each Ghostkeel. It's a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature, and you can take 1-3. It has the normal Tau BS 3 with 4 wounds, but only a T5. However the 3+ save with +2 to it's cover save outside of 12" should make up for it.
The main gun- Fusion Collider is an 18" S8 AP1 melta blast gun that can be exchanged for a Ion weapon that is more infantry based with a S7AP4 Assault 6 gun that can overcharge for additional strength and a large blast.
It also has a twin- linked flamer that can be exchanged out for a TL bust cannon or fusion blaster.
The model has gear that doubles the cover saves to a max of +2 but also gains shrouded from it's drones. It seems powerful with stealth, shrouded, and the limited doubling, but I have not had time to read the details to see what stacks.
Two support systems are also allowed for upgrades. Cost wise its a little over a hundred and a quarter.
Vineheart01 wrote: Never used any FW models except proxied in Y'vahra. Tetras seemed kinda pricy to me but everyone gives them so much praise i may just be seeing them wrong.
But Tetras are the cheapest vehicle en the entire game... less than 40p for 2 TL markerlights, Scout and homing beacons? They're a steal!
theyre cheaper than piranhas? i must be thinking of something else for some reason for the price then because i thought they were on par in cost but lacked the drones (so actually more expensive) and less armor. But the armor isnt that big a deal since 36" range lol.
Piranhas are literally my mobile wall. Them and the 10 drones they dump off almost always stall my opponent for 3 turns. They piss off my opponents so much lol.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Barracudas are well worth it, if you can afford them, and tetras are great, and can be pretty easily converted out of piranhas.
Not really. I tried using my tetras as backup piranhas until I actually took a pic of the two side by side.
The difference is huge even if you converted it.
One you take the wings off the aren't too different, definitely not enough to matter to me. And nobody is really going to complain, as the slight size difference i actually better for those attacking it.
Piranha's are good, but as soon as you run into someone who can outrange you (easy to do with 18" range on everything) and can kill FA 11 w/ 2 HP (which is everything Str 5 and up) makes them a very fragile unit. Yeah, Piranha's are nice because of the drones and their ability to race in with fusion blasters as a suicide antitank unit, but a round of fire from a heavy bolters or autocannons or better and you're done. For suicide antitank, fusion suits are just better, particulalry when you take into account three suits with double fusion is only 156 points for 6 shots,and then you add two Tetras for marker lights (averaging 3 hits) gives you BS 5 and a spare in case you need someone else to hit it to finish it off for only 226 points. Then the Tetras can move targets, reposition themselves way more quickly than Pathfinders, and have rifles, too.
Yeah, you don't have the annoyance of 10 drones running around, but honestly drones are pretty pathetic, IMO.
Nope, i want them to die first. Like i said theyre a mobile wall. Their sole purpose is to be a cockblock, not do damage.
They prevent assaulty races from getting to me with any real speed because they have to deal with piranhas AND drones first, both something they'd rather not waste their time on. And if they ignore them/try to go around theyre in for a world of hurt. More often than not they have to use multiple units assaulting them or dump heavy weapons into them, which makes my Hammerhead/Skyrays happy
I never get the fusion upgrade because then i take away the reason i want them - cannon fodder. I play both my tau and orks in a distraction method where NOTHING is loaded with half my points if i can help it, but i either have tons of multi-prong attacks or stuff that are there to do nothing but waste your time/piss you off. For my Orks thats MANz missiles flying up both flanks lol...you either deal with the cheap manz missiles and face my army head on, or deal with the army and let the MANz get the assault which is never good for you.
Not quite the same with Tau but thats the point of the Piranhas/Drones. They dont assault obviously but they can lay on a LOT of hurt if you ignore them. Especially the drones even if you only give them a single ML to boost to BS3 they become NASTY. And rarely go away in one swoop.
"New experimental mobile suits and more!" says the GW front page. They actually called them mobile suits! For the three people who don't know, that's what mechs are called in Gundam.
Frozen Ocean wrote: "New experimental mobile suits and more!" says the GW front page. They actually called them mobile suits! For the three people who don't know, that's what mechs are called in Gundam.
Does... does Games Workshop want another lawsuit? Except this time, the guys across from them are much, much, MUCH bigger.
This isn't poking Sunrise, the company behind Gundam. This is poking Bandai, the company that could simply buy Games Workshop.
Knowing how GW loves completely dominating things (since they seriously claimed they own the oval shape for a base...really?) i wouldnt be surprised if they tried to stretch their arms further than they should.
Actually would be kinda funny to see THEM get slammed by one of those stupid nitpicky lawsuits for once.
If GW doesn't own the rights to "Space Marine" then how exactly do you think that Bandai or Harmony Gold own the rights to "Mobile Suit"?
Plus it's "mobile suit" on the GW page, not "Mobile Suit". One of those is a specific term that is associated with something specific while the other is generic.
Kanluwen wrote: If GW doesn't own the rights to "Space Marine" then how exactly do you think that Bandai or Harmony Gold own the rights to "Mobile Suit"?
Plus it's "mobile suit" on the GW page, not "Mobile Suit". One of those is a specific term that is associated with something specific while the other is generic.
Yeah, Kan's got the gist of it. Not a problem for GW.
Been holding off on tau until everything is released, but money burns a hole in my pocket.
Does anyone here have any experience with remora drones?
If so, what are they like please?
Thinking of picking up 2-4 depending on what they are like.
They're solid. Decent little planes with networked marker lights, seeker missiles, and heavy burst cannon (longer range, higher rof), and shrouded. Not a world beater, but definitely a decent option, and you can max out the squadron at 5, I believe.
Unsure as to whether or not it's been said yet (I've somewhat lost track of the conversations), but preorders are up on the US site for the Mobile Assault Force Stormsurge (three of 'em!), the Firebase Support Cadre (Riptide and six 88s, nothing too special), and the Armored Interdiction Cadre (three Hammerheads and a Skyray). Hopefully, that means Hammerheads will be getting updated rules in the soon-to-be future.
FW people already stated that IA14 won't be IA3 with new things. IA3 2nd edition is the book you want - there won't be new rules for Tetras or Remoras in IA14.
Vector Strike wrote: FW people already stated that IA14 won't be IA3 with new things. IA3 2nd edition is the book you want - there won't be new rules for Tetras or Remoras in IA14.
Got any proof for that statement?
Because they supposedly claimed the same thing about Imperial Armour Volume 1's 2E and some of the Navy air assets, but I can field my Vulture Gunship from that book. I just don't have the fluff for the thing in there.
Then again i pay 0 attention to imperials anyway. IG isnt as bad but i already have Tau and theyre pretty similar (i'd rather vastly different playstyles between my armies, hence ork + tau). All SM to me is ridiculously overpriced because they pay for everything even if they dont use it. That drives me nuts lol, every SM codex of any chapter i look at i dont get how their tactics work outside bringing cheesy gak...oh wait....
Back on Tau topics: wonder how many people will be fielding like 12 MCs in a standard game now lol. Squads of 3...and i think its pretty safe to say the Riptide is going to be squads of 3 as well. If the Stormsurge wasnt, i wouldnt expect Riptides to get it but...yeah lol kinda makes no sense to let Stormsurge squads be a thing and not Riptides.
Assuming riptides dont get nerfed to the ground that is.
Vector Strike wrote: FW people already stated that IA14 won't be IA3 with new things. IA3 2nd edition is the book you want - there won't be new rules for Tetras or Remoras in IA14.
Got any proof for that statement?
Because they supposedly claimed the same thing about Imperial Armour Volume 1's 2E and some of the Navy air assets, but I can field my Vulture Gunship from that book. I just don't have the fluff for the thing in there.
Imperials get their stuff re-released everytime (I think Baneblade has more than 5 iteractions). They should stop doing that and move on with new stuff.
Regarding Tau: I couldn't find it in the midst of ATT rumour thread. I remember reading it, though. Anyway, don't expect any rewrites.
Im sorry, but I couldnt run one of those stormsurges without bits ordering some riptide arms and putting them coming out of the boxes. Its just too dumb.
Forge World could make a canopy or cockpit cover. They make chapter-specific doors for the Imperium's tanks, after all, the cheapest package being £6.50.
If the Stealth Drone thing is true, maybe some will be sold separately by GW and will be an option for Pathfinder teams.
SinisterSamurai wrote: Forge World could make a canopy or cockpit cover. They make chapter-specific doors for the Imperium's tanks, after all, the cheapest package being £6.50.
If the Stealth Drone thing is true, maybe some will be sold separately by GW and will be an option for Pathfinder teams.
Those doors are replacements for existing pieces that probably make use of existing autoCAD images when they are produced. Very different from making a canopy to fit over a hole that is meant to be there.
I always thought the open cockpit thing was more of a balcony attached to the chest of the suit, so the pilot himself is safely within the armour. It's just the targeting redshirts that get exposed to artillery fire and such.
Or maybe there's a forcefield we don't know about?
In any case, it shouldn't be hard to get some kind of plasticard covering to hide them.
On a different note - what does everyone think the 'Armoured Interdiction Cadre' will do? Will it confer the same benefits as the old Apoc formation whence it derives?
Honestly I don't mind the open cockpit at all. Rule of cool more often than not comes before "realism" or whatever in my book.
The sculptors did a great job in the cockpit, and if there was a cover you wouldn't be able to see it. I mean just look at every Imperial vehicle ever. How many do you know that actually paint the inside of a Rhino? No one, because it won't be seen anyway.
I like the model over all, but then again I have a soft spot for all things mech, even the ridiculous missile "arms". I think it's unique and badass. I'm also a huge fan of that article in the White Dwarf that shows the thing standing upright, looks great! It's nice to see GW embracing conversions, at least a little bit.
Just been sent through to retailers for orders next week;
TAU XV95 GHOSTKEEL BATTLESUIT £45
A multi-part plastic boxed set that makes one XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit on a 105mm oval base and with two MV5 Stealth Drones. This Battlesuit stands taller than a Broadside Battlesuit and can be armed with a selection of new and deadly weaponry, plus several Battlesuit upgrades. It has sophisticated anti-targeting devices that make it very hard to hit in battle. The kit also contains two new drones that help to protect the Ghostkeel from incoming fire.
Very Cool. I like that the Ghostkeel comes on a 105mm oval. I could see it being taller than a carnifex on that sort of base. I'll have to get a couple of those upon release i guess.
Here's my official guess at the new Fire Warrior weapon we've seen in the stormsurge pictures - Pulse Shotgun. Range: 12". S5 AP5, Blast, Assault 1. designed for brave fire warrior teams who lead breaching assaults. support teams destroy enemy transport vehicles and the breachers take out the clumped up infantry with extreme prejudice.
Why is it dumb (especially compared to the rest of 40k)? Shotguns make sense for close-ranged, shock troopers. Especially in places like cramped cites or for ship-to-ship boarding or defense.
Oh i don't think a shotgun would be a good gun for a tau to have. But i can see it's thematic use from a narrative standpoint. Plus a infantry wielded blast weapon en masse would be pretty new to the codex. I'm probably wrong but i could definitely see the utility of dumping out of a devilfish, having a broadside team shred apart a rhino, then tossing 6-12 blasts at the clumped up marines. the fire warriors would inevitably die in the next turn, but it'd still be cool to do once.
Edit - give it a "charged pulse slug" firing mode for s6ap5 18" range assault 1. That might make it good. but i digress - wishlisting clogs the forum. sorry guys.
I don't think that it will be a shotgun-style weapon. Since it has two barrels, I can give it two shots (Assault 2), probably at short range (12"), and with some knockback-effect to represent the CQC nature of the weapon (Concussive is most likely, maybe Strikedown).
AtoMaki wrote: I don't think that it will be a shotgun-style weapon. Since it has two barrels, I can give it two shots (Assault 2), probably at short range (12"), and with some knockback-effect to represent the CQC nature of the weapon (Concussive is most likely, maybe Strikedown).
Space Marine shotguns are assault 2, 12", s4 ap5. this might just be that, but at s5 because tau. (which would make it terrible when the carbine is the same thing at 18" with pinning. that's why i speculated a blast style weapon for variety).
AtoMaki wrote: I don't think that it will be a shotgun-style weapon. Since it has two barrels, I can give it two shots (Assault 2), probably at short range (12"), and with some knockback-effect to represent the CQC nature of the weapon (Concussive is most likely, maybe Strikedown).
Err you know they make double barreled shotguns right? lol.
AtoMaki wrote: I don't think that it will be a shotgun-style weapon. Since it has two barrels, I can give it two shots (Assault 2), probably at short range (12"), and with some knockback-effect to represent the CQC nature of the weapon (Concussive is most likely, maybe Strikedown).
Err you know they make double barreled shotguns right? lol.
The twin "barrels" on Pulse Weapons are not for actually firing two different shots.
Look at any of the art of Pulse Rifles or Carbines firing. It uses the twin "barrels" to create a pulsed induction field and hurl bursts of plasma.
All pulse weapons are two barreled. Although this does appear to have some sort of third barrel.
Yeah, and pulse weapons fire two shots (either from being Assault 2 or Rapid Fire), so this weapons is going to do the same . The third "barrel" is in fact just optics.
tetrisphreak wrote: Space Marine shotguns are assault 2, 12", s4 ap5. this might just be that, but at s5 because tau. (which would make it terrible when the carbine is the same thing at 18" with pinning. that's why i speculated a blast style weapon for variety).
Blast is out because the weapon is too small for that. I can only see some sort of lesser special rule like Concussive.
All pulse weapons are two barreled. Although this does appear to have some sort of third barrel.
Yeah, and pulse weapons fire two shots (either from being Assault 2 or Rapid Fire), so this weapons is going to do the same . The third "barrel" is in fact just optics.
The number of "barrels" has nothing to do with the number of shots. Pulse Pistols have two of them but fire one shot.
tetrisphreak wrote: Space Marine shotguns are assault 2, 12", s4 ap5. this might just be that, but at s5 because tau. (which would make it terrible when the carbine is the same thing at 18" with pinning. that's why i speculated a blast style weapon for variety).
Blast is out because the weapon is too small for that. I can only see some sort of lesser special rule like Concussive.
After them putting Blast on Grenadier Gauntlets? I would not say that it's "too small".
BrookM wrote: The new gun shown in the hands of those new Fire Warriors is pretty much a reworked carbine, minus the grenade launcher that it previously had.
I'd say that's a good thing. Carbines losing Pinning is a great thing!
BrookM wrote: The new gun shown in the hands of those new Fire Warriors is pretty much a reworked carbine, minus the grenade launcher that it previously had.
I'd say that's a good thing. Carbines losing Pinning is a great thing!
Makes me wonder though if drones will retain this.
Breotan wrote: I have a feeling FW will be making arms soon enough. The roof, on the other hand...
Just fill in that cavity with "green stuff" and do a little detail modelling on it....rivets & seems....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tetrisphreak wrote: Here's my official guess at the new Fire Warrior weapon we've seen in the stormsurge pictures - Pulse Shotgun. Range: 12". S5 AP5, Blast, Assault 1. designed for brave fire warrior teams who lead breaching assaults. support teams destroy enemy transport vehicles and the breachers take out the clumped up infantry with extreme prejudice.
Just a guess. Any other guesses?
Knowing this is happening -
- Strike team
- Breacher team
I am guessing
- Strike team - fast choice & jump packs (those new packs with side thrusters) & shotgun style weapon (with rerolls maybe?)...
There's no telling what's going to happen to FW. The strike group is probably going to retain rifle/carbine option unchanged (with a slight points drop, hopefully) and then the breach group (veterans makes sense, as most armies now have a standard troop option then a veteran troop option) could gain a 12" Rending Assault 2 Str 5 Ap 5 shotgun to back up their WS 4 BS 4 Str 4 Ap 2 lightsaber new statline for 10 points (I just pulled that out of the air, btw. Waiting for it to appear on BoLS as from a "GW insider" lol). There's no telling until we see the White Dwarf. Odds are it is shorter range but better in assaults.
vitae_drinker wrote: There's no telling what's going to happen to FW. The strike group is probably going to retain rifle/carbine option unchanged (with a slight points drop, hopefully) and then the breach group (veterans makes sense, as most armies now have a standard troop option then a veteran troop option) could gain a 12" Rending Assault 2 Str 5 Ap 5 shotgun to back up their WS 4 BS 4 Str 4 Ap 2 lightsaber new statline for 10 points (I just pulled that out of the air, btw. Waiting for it to appear on BoLS as from a "GW insider" lol). There's no telling until we see the White Dwarf. Odds are it is shorter range but better in assaults.
Yeah, those stats really are PIDOOMA. If the Stormsurge isn't getting BS4, Fire Warriors sure aren't. WS3 at most, because Tau can't be good at CC. That "lightsaber" only has the power of a chainsword.
The breacher group is probably just a jump variant of the Fire Warriors with a new basic gun.
Would be interesting if the new FW squad has Concussive or Strikedown since afaik EVERYTHING that has those rules typically splats their target anyway. Be the first time you could get those rules without insanely high strength coupling it.
Also the ghostkeel is on the mini-oval base? Oh thats much better. I thought it was on the normal oval base and was worried footprints would be too big too quick with ~9 MC's around lol.
Also why is carbines losing Pinning a great thing....? Thats the sole reason i even bother with carbines.
Ugh. If they only have two guns? No way are they worth that price. Especially when it basically works out to 100 cad. So that's 300. For two more of those I can just grab a Ta'unar. Not worth it in price or points. Please let the rules be good and not what we've seen. I'm also surprised there's no leak yet.
I had wondered if the Breacher units would have scaled down infantry weapons based on reverse conversion beamer rules like the Stormsurge's blastcannon. ARC technology in handheld form.
Close range is probably , anti armor weapons. 2nd range would be normalish last range would be a small blast.
Breacher makes me think that they would have Pulse Carbines and maybe have some way to either slow a charge or pull a "fighting retreat" similar to Darkstrider. No way they would actually be strong in CC but maybe they are good at staying out of CC to begin with. Something like that would be great for Devilfish teams.
Jadenim wrote: Ooo, I wonder if they'd make Darkstrider an upgrade character for these new breacher squads (and/or pathfinders)?
I love the model and he has interesting rules, but so difficult to fit in as an HQ
It's time to stop thinking in terms of the CAD. At this juncture, it's basically guaranteed that this will be a Decurion styled book and there likely will be a formation similar to the Space Marines' "10th Company Task Force" consisting of Pathfinders with a 0-1 option for Darkstrider.
The Tau will have a detachment that is 2 old FW teams, 1+ of the new FW variant, 1+ of something that nobody used because it sucked, and 1+ of something that lots of people used, plus an HQ (probably fireblades?). Oh, and a heavy option.
Verviedi wrote: Fireblades are Troops in the new Codex, I believe.
They are in the Troops section of the website, they are not likely to be actual Troops choices.
They might become upgrades to Fire Warrior Squads or be a mandatory part of a "Fire Caste Cadre" or any number of potential things but it is very unlikely that they will become Troops choices in and of themselves.
What they may do is something like how warlocks worked, which is to say a "squad" of them takes up a HQ slot, but you can spread them out through your troops.
You do know that the Cadre Fireblade has always been in the Troops section of the GW website right? Atleast on the swedish site. I have been wodnering why he is there ever since he wa first released with the current codex.
Vineheart01 wrote: $75 for a ghostkeel.....not surprised but still ouch.
Thats 225 for a full squad. Anybody wanting to field a multitude of these things suffer worse than those wanting to field mass broadsides lol. Ouch.
preorders are on some sites... starting at $56.25...
Yeah, 25% discount
Makes a huge difference.
Actually it doesn't make a huge difference.. it makes about 0 difference because that rationale is touted almost *every time*. If you've been getting 25% off (which is easy to do and doesn't require a post) then you're getting exactly a 0% discount every time GW raises their prices due to your starting point already being 25% off.
A price increase is a price increase and I don't understand not blasting GW for it.. since they're doing it EVERY codex now for no reason.
Humph, the price is not that bad, considering these will be available after some time from various resellers and so on. The breacher FWs sound really interesting, I wonder what GW did with them. Can't wait for WD leaks!
Jadenim wrote: Ooo, I wonder if they'd make Darkstrider an upgrade character for these new breacher squads (and/or pathfinders)?
I love the model and he has interesting rules, but so difficult to fit in as an HQ
Problem with Darkstrider is how expensive he is for a model that at best buffs 12 Fire Warriors and another special rule that puts him in extreme danger. For his points you can just take another 12 Fire Warriors and get roughly 1.5x the dakka, and double the wounds.
Jadenim wrote: Ooo, I wonder if they'd make Darkstrider an upgrade character for these new breacher squads (and/or pathfinders)?
I love the model and he has interesting rules, but so difficult to fit in as an HQ
Problem with Darkstrider is how expensive he is for a model that at best buffs 12 Fire Warriors and another special rule that puts him in extreme danger. For his points you can just take another 12 Fire Warriors and get roughly 1.5x the dakka, and double the wounds.
Try him in a unit of Pathfinders with Rail Rifles. It's kind of dumb.
GhostKeel, Not bad. Definitly not OP. That holophoton could have been very powerful. I kinda wish it was activated for a turn, not just against one unit.
Jadenim wrote: Ooo, I wonder if they'd make Darkstrider an upgrade character for these new breacher squads (and/or pathfinders)?
I love the model and he has interesting rules, but so difficult to fit in as an HQ
Problem with Darkstrider is how expensive he is for a model that at best buffs 12 Fire Warriors and another special rule that puts him in extreme danger. For his points you can just take another 12 Fire Warriors and get roughly 1.5x the dakka, and double the wounds.
Try him in a unit of Pathfinders with Rail Rifles. It's kind of dumb.
Why not just take another group of 4 pathfinders with 3 rail rifles instead? At 100+ points its just too impractical to field him. I really like his concept and even scratch build a Darkstrider model. I really want to use him but he just doesn't earn his points back
I know that the Stormsurge is a Ballistic Suit, but come on, that thing could maybe even use these systems! Not to mention the Superiority Armor.
Multi-Tracker on a GMC is kind of redundant. They can already fire all of their weapons every Shooting phase, and at multiple targets if they so choose(depending on how you interpret the rules I guess?).
It's worth mentioning in any regards that the Stormsurge and Supremacy suits are not manned by a single pilot, like the rest of the Suits are, so maybe that is why they do not get those two things?
Also worth mentioning that both of those units do not actually list "Stormsurge Ballistic Suit" or "Supremacy Armor" as pieces of Wargear like the Battlesuit variants are.
Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Could not be any better suited to my stealth themed army.
I'll probably be fielding about four of them, formations willing. Unit of 3 Ion/Burst and one Fusion/Fusion as a lone vehicle popper/armour ignorer with marker support in a pinch.
They're also probably the best assault unit tau have now, by the way. Not as a primary or even secondary role for them, just good to remember in a pinch you can get 12 swings at S6 AP2 plus HoW and a handful of ineffectual drone slaps. Unlike a Riptide who'd be fighting solo, that's enough volume of attacks that you aren't automatically tarpiting yourself out of the game.
I don't see a use for the Fusion Collider (too short range to really be Melta useful, and 1 shot Small Blasts aren't that reliable anyway), but the Raker is pretty nifty. Combo with whatever other gun you choose and you could have a pretty solid shooty MC that can jump in and out of range, while having a 2+ Cover Save outside of 12". A unit of 3 with Rakers is pretty expensive but puts out 18 S6 AP4 shots per turn while jumping around and being pretty darn durable.
Veriamp wrote: Any speculation as to what the "Fire team" special rule is?
If I had to ballpark it, I would say it might be something like Combat Squads where you can split the units up.
That could very well be close to it, but I feel like when there is only 3 in a unit it might not be it. Would it have anything to do with each one targeting different units? Or can a squad of MC's do that already?
I know that the Stormsurge is a Ballistic Suit, but come on, that thing could maybe even use these systems! Not to mention the Superiority Armor.
Multi-Tracker on a GMC is kind of redundant. They can already fire all of their weapons every Shooting phase, and at multiple targets if they so choose(depending on how you interpret the rules I guess?).
Yeah, GMC's can fire all weapons if you are going RAI. As per RAW, they can only fire two weapons (but each at different targets... yay).
Also odd things with the Ghostkeel's entry:
- Thankfully to the bad wording of the option that allows you to take more Ghostkeels with drones, you must pay 390 points for each additional Ghostkeel as you are in fact buying 3 models (1 Ghostkeel and 2 drones) and the cost is 130 points per model.
- If they are forming a squad, all Ghostkeels must use their Holophotonic Countermeasures at once. And this sucks.
Consequently, don't squadron your Ghostkeels for any reason .
The holophoton countermeasures seem to encurage multiple Ghostkeels, since you can fire it from each model one at a time, so a full unit can force snapfire 3 units a game.
Being t5 actually makes the armor save being 3+ not that bad, how far do monstrous jet packs jump again? Just 2d6 or 3d6?(seeing as the overcharge for riptide is 4d6). I'm having a hard time figuring out what role they'd fill that isn't being covered by suits/tides yet, love the model though and the rules don't seem to bad.
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AtoMaki wrote: - If they are forming a squad, all Ghostkeels must use their Holophotonic Countermeasures at once. And this sucks.
Consequently, don't squadron your Ghostkeels for any reason .
Uhm no? It clearly states A model can choose to activate, so you can use it 3 separate times (if you have 3 in your unit, and none of them die ) <- ow snap it does indeed say the entire unit uses its thingie at the same time, well that disappointing.
Requizen wrote: I don't see a use for the Fusion Collider (too short range to really be Melta useful, and 1 shot Small Blasts aren't that reliable anyway), but the Raker is pretty nifty. Combo with whatever other gun you choose and you could have a pretty solid shooty MC that can jump in and out of range, while having a 2+ Cover Save outside of 12". A unit of 3 with Rakers is pretty expensive but puts out 18 S6 AP4 shots per turn while jumping around and being pretty darn durable.
Really? You don't see a use for the Fusion Collider?
Same range as a Fusion Blaster, same statline but with Blast thrown in. The things that a Fusion Blaster excels at killing(vehicles, high armor/Toughness things) it also will excel at killing...but with a Blast thrown in.
It's a half ranged version of a Knight's Thermal Cannon that is Assault with a point less Strength and on a far more mobile platform than even an Imperial Knight!
Hawkeye888 wrote:That could very well be close to it, but I feel like when there is only 3 in a unit it might not be it. Would it have anything to do with each one targeting different units? Or can a squad of MC's do that already?
I really doubt that it is targeting separate units, or we would have seen it on the Stormsurges as well I think. Additionally there is currently a Support System which does that anyways in the form of Target Lock.
It might sound silly to really harp on it being a "Combat Squad"-esque rule, but something about that feels right. Without seeing all the fluff about it, it seems like this is a rule we could see for the Stealth Teams as well.
Nilok wrote: The holophoton countermeasures seem to encurage multiple Ghostkeels, since you can fire it from each model one at a time, so a full unit can force snapfire 3 units a game.
No, all three must use their countermeasures at once, they can't reserve their own uses for later.:
Declare that the unit will use the holophotonic countermeasures
You can activate the countermeasures when a model is targeted, but then the whole unit will use theirs whether they want it or not.
I know that the Stormsurge is a Ballistic Suit, but come on, that thing could maybe even use these systems! Not to mention the Superiority Armor.
Multi-Tracker on a GMC is kind of redundant. They can already fire all of their weapons every Shooting phase, and at multiple targets if they so choose(depending on how you interpret the rules I guess?).
Yeah, GMC's can fire all weapons if you are going RAI. As per RAW, they can only fire two weapons (but each at different targets... yay).
Also odd things with the Ghostkeel's entry:
- Thankfully to the bad wording of the option that allows you to take more Ghostkeels with drones, you must pay 390 points for each additional Ghostkeel as you are in fact buying 3 models (1 Ghostkeel and 2 drones) and the cost is 130 points per model.
- If they are forming a squad, all Ghostkeels must use their Holophotonic Countermeasures at once. And this sucks.
Consequently, don't squadron your Ghostkeels for any reason .
The ITC has ruled GMC's can in fact fire all their weapons. On top of this someone on ATT has gotten an email from WD who says of course the Stormsurge can fire all of its guns.
Your one of the few people that still thinks otherwise at this point all trying to gain a tiny rules advantage.
I'd just like to point out that since the drones are counted for free in the cost of a suit and the unit only needs one of them to benefit, you have 5 free ablative wounds before risking damage to a suit, particularly double out strength instant death.
Nilok wrote: The holophoton countermeasures seem to encurage multiple Ghostkeels, since you can fire it from each model one at a time, so a full unit can force snapfire 3 units a game.
No, all three must use their countermeasures at once, they can't reserve their own uses for later.:
Declare that the unit will use the holophotonic countermeasures
You can activate the countermeasures when a model is targeted, but then the whole unit will use theirs whether they want it or not.
Unit Composition is a Ghostkeel Shas'vre and two MV5 Stealth Drones.
I'm now really starting to think that Fire Team is that each Ghostkeel and their attendant drones are counted as a "unit".
vitae_drinker wrote: Yeah.... Fireblades (an IC) won't become a troops choice. Please use some common sense.
They'd be elites at least lol
Tyranid Broodlords went from being HQ's to Character upgrades for Troops choices, so its not unprecedented. I.E. - Your argument shows a lack of common sense.
vitae_drinker wrote: Yeah.... Fireblades (an IC) won't become a troops choice. Please use some common sense.
They'd be elites at least lol
Tyranid Broodlords went from being HQ's to Character upgrades for Troops choices, so its not unprecedented. I.E. - Your argument shows a lack of common sense.
To be fair, Genestealers did not exactly have a Sergeant option already. The Fire Warriors do.
I'm still thinking either some sort of combined fire bonus, or the ability to split into combat teams. That would make the holoprojector thingamabob better.
Also, the fusion blaster blast would be useful for say, oh, invisible deathstars. Especially since you can marker light them to ignore cover (hopefully).
The ITC has ruled GMC's can in fact fire all their weapons. On top of this someone on ATT has gotten an email from WD who says of course the Stormsurge can fire all of its guns.
vitae_drinker wrote: Yeah.... Fireblades (an IC) won't become a troops choice. Please use some common sense.
They'd be elites at least lol
Tyranid Broodlords went from being HQ's to Character upgrades for Troops choices, so its not unprecedented. I.E. - Your argument shows a lack of common sense.
Actually, that's one of the suggested changes I said I would like to see about,oh, twenty pages back or so. But making them an out and out troops choice (rather than some sort of upgrade option a'la veteran sergeants or commissars or eldar council) is what lacks common sense. But hey, get all offended on the internet, bud. Have at it.
Beating your drum louder doesn't make you more correct. Now please let us discuss the new rules for the suit without dragging this into a rules debate. We have an existing thread I believe.
Gamgee wrote: Beating your drum louder doesn't make you more correct. Now please let us discuss the new rules for the suit without dragging this into a rules debate. We have an existing thread I believe.
Nice retreat. Amon would be proud.
Anyway, I have just noticed that the Electrowarfare Suite boosts both the Stealth and the Shrouded special rule. Since the Ghostkeel has both with the drones, this means a solid +6 bonus to its cover saves against shots from more than 12". This is kinda' neat.
Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)
Doesn't look like a retreat to me, looks like he just wasn't going to argue with someone who was just wrong.
Yeah, 2+ cover saves outside of 12" is pretty baller. Of course, you're going to have to use your jump move to get it if you're in melta range during your shot.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)
It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".
That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.
Requizen wrote: I don't see a use for the Fusion Collider (too short range to really be Melta useful, and 1 shot Small Blasts aren't that reliable anyway), but the Raker is pretty nifty. Combo with whatever other gun you choose and you could have a pretty solid shooty MC that can jump in and out of range, while having a 2+ Cover Save outside of 12". A unit of 3 with Rakers is pretty expensive but puts out 18 S6 AP4 shots per turn while jumping around and being pretty darn durable.
Really? You don't see a use for the Fusion Collider?
Same range as a Fusion Blaster, same statline but with Blast thrown in. The things that a Fusion Blaster excels at killing(vehicles, high armor/Toughness things) it also will excel at killing...but with a Blast thrown in.
It's a half ranged version of a Knight's Thermal Cannon that is Assault with a point less Strength and on a far more mobile platform than even an Imperial Knight!
If the opponent knows how to spread out units to coherency, small blasts rarely hit more than 2 targets, max. And with BS3, Scatter is much less reliable than just plain shooting in my experience.
vitae_drinker wrote: Doesn't look like a retreat to me, looks like he just wasn't going to argue with someone who was just wrong.
Yeah, 2+ cover saves outside of 12" is pretty baller. Of course, you're going to have to use your jump move to get it if you're in melta range during your shot.
The raker has range 24" which should be just about enough to dance in and out with while maintaining a really good cover save. Even if something does come close, the unit still gets 4+ cover saves. The high rate of fire of the raker, and the optional large blast, gives it a pretty good potential for killing things, especially with some marker light support.
Are two of these better than taking a highly upgraded Riptide? That remains to be seen.
Requizen wrote: I don't see a use for the Fusion Collider (too short range to really be Melta useful, and 1 shot Small Blasts aren't that reliable anyway), but the Raker is pretty nifty. Combo with whatever other gun you choose and you could have a pretty solid shooty MC that can jump in and out of range, while having a 2+ Cover Save outside of 12". A unit of 3 with Rakers is pretty expensive but puts out 18 S6 AP4 shots per turn while jumping around and being pretty darn durable.
Really? You don't see a use for the Fusion Collider?
Same range as a Fusion Blaster, same statline but with Blast thrown in. The things that a Fusion Blaster excels at killing(vehicles, high armor/Toughness things) it also will excel at killing...but with a Blast thrown in.
It's a half ranged version of a Knight's Thermal Cannon that is Assault with a point less Strength and on a far more mobile platform than even an Imperial Knight!
If the opponent knows how to spread out units to coherency, small blasts rarely hit more than 2 targets, max. And with BS3, Scatter is much less reliable than just plain shooting in my experience.
That's assuming no Markerlights on targets, etc.
With how Markerlights operate now? Even two tokens for BS5 means that Scatter is looking a lot less irksome.
You're right that small blasts are very limited, but that's a good thing.
I like the new ghostkeel. The model is nice and cool looking, and the rules seem balanced. I'd imagine a Jet Pack MC works in the same sense that a Jump MC works with the current rules: the model is an MC, but moves like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.
It's better than the old stealth suits, in that it has more versatility in weapons and is more survivable to massed shooting. CC still kills it of course. I think it could see play as the Tau version of the "Distraction Carnifex", moving up or DS-ing in to annoy people and kill vulnerable targets.
This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the new ghostkeel. The model is nice and cool looking, and the rules seem balanced. I'd imagine a Jet Pack MC works in the same sense that a Jump MC works with the current rules: the model is an MC, but moves like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.
It's better than the old stealth suits, in that it has more versatility in weapons and is more survivable to massed shooting. CC still kills it of course. I think it could see play as the Tau version of the "Distraction Carnifex", moving up or DS-ing in to annoy people and kill vulnerable targets.
This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.
It is a better missile side... sort of. It just needs to be closer and behind your lines with those rakers.
Edit
Nevermind I derped. It's not.
Soooo... .what's this thing's role?
Yeah, I'm not so sure about the melta weapons. The CIR sounds like a better deal. I think it's a more mobile Broadside, with a mix of Stealth Suit. But I think changemod got their better niche:
changemod wrote:They're also probably the best assault unit tau have now, by the way. Not as a primary or even secondary role for them, just good to remember in a pinch you can get 12 swings at S6 AP2 plus HoW and a handful of ineffectual drone slaps. Unlike a Riptide who'd be fighting solo, that's enough volume of attacks that you aren't automatically tarpiting yourself out of the game.
Yeap. Barring the LoWs, it's the least afraid Tau unit in melee we have. and for measly 3 points (BKR), it'll regroup very fast, so it'll hardly leave the table.
Co'tor Shas wrote:
Atia wrote: EDIT: pics are to big, you can see them here too^^
I like the new ghostkeel. The model is nice and cool looking, and the rules seem balanced. I'd imagine a Jet Pack MC works in the same sense that a Jump MC works with the current rules: the model is an MC, but moves like Jump/Jet Pack Infantry.
It's better than the old stealth suits, in that it has more versatility in weapons and is more survivable to massed shooting. CC still kills it of course. I think it could see play as the Tau version of the "Distraction Carnifex", moving up or DS-ing in to annoy people and kill vulnerable targets.
This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.
It's not horrible in CC, it's S6 AP2 with 3 attacks(4 on charge) each. Drones can fight also though more as wound cushions. Crap WS of course, but that doesn't hurt much unless there is a large difference.
TheNewBlood wrote: This does make me wonder what will happen to the old Stealth Suits though.
Well, this is their replacement, obviously. Your old models are lame and boring and GW already got paid for them a long time ago. You're not supposed to keep using the old stuff when there's new stuff.
And if you're a new player you're supposed to buy the old stuff because you don't know any better, and then buy the new stuff after you figure out what's up so that GW gets more money.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)
It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".
That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.
Auspex has a 12" range....so that's out. It would just drop the stealth and shrouded from +3 cover save to +2 cover save. Problem solved - still get a 2+ in ruins.
Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.
overall i like the suit and it's rules - he will do for me what my 197 point "Commander tortoiseshell" does. Drop in, melt heavy armor, and survive the return fire for a few turns. typically.
Bulldogging wrote: It's not horrible in CC, it's S6 AP2 with 3 attacks(4 on charge) each. Drones can fight also though more as wound cushions. Crap WS of course, but that doesn't hurt much unless there is a large difference.
WS 2 means it hits on 5s vs WS4+ and basically everything hits it on 3s (except Orks who failed a fear check because GW hates Orks). Ive seen the horror of watching killa kanz try to hit space marines as they slowly krak grenade them to death.
tetrisphreak wrote: Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)
It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".
That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.
Auspex has a 12" range....so that's out. It would just drop the stealth and shrouded from +3 cover save to +2 cover save. Problem solved - still get a 2+ in ruins.
Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.
overall i like the suit and it's rules - he will do for me what my 197 point "Commander tortoiseshell" does. Drop in, melt heavy armor, and survive the return fire for a few turns. typically.
MTC is a "single model has the USR -> whole unit has the USR" type of rule.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hmm, that means things like Auspexes (-1 to cover) won't have any real effect unless you use 2+ of them, since its cover save is basically a 1+ save (fails on a 1 though so in practice its a 2+)
It's going to be an interesting thing no doubt to see get worked out in the various YMDC threads but since it multiplies the Cover Save you would have--the Auspex theoretically would be removing the Cover Save if the drones are dead while it is in the open beyond 12".
That's just how I'm thinking it is meant to work, YMMV.
Auspex has a 12" range....so that's out. It would just drop the stealth and shrouded from +3 cover save to +2 cover save. Problem solved - still get a 2+ in ruins.
Interesting add - the XV95 has Move through cover since it's an MC. Are the drones MC's as well? If not they'll be taking dangerous terrain if they jet pack move into or out of cover - could be a nuisance.
overall i like the suit and it's rules - he will do for me what my 197 point "Commander tortoiseshell" does. Drop in, melt heavy armor, and survive the return fire for a few turns. typically.
MTC is a "single model has the USR -> whole unit has the USR" type of rule.
Nope. Look it up again - move through cover is not conferred to a unit like stealth or shrouded.
Actually its a bit of both. MTC lets the unit roll 3D6 taking the highest for movement in cover. MTC only auto passes dangerous terrain on the models that have the special rule.
And I've seen my equally CC incompetent riptide (actually even more, as he had ECPA who makes it WS1) sweep 470ish points of necrons on a single combat round.
gak happens. having the technical possibility to hurt stuff is never bad. at the very least it can hurt rear10 tanks in assault.
Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.
BoomWolf wrote: And I've seen my equally CC incompetent riptide (actually even more, as he had ECPA who makes it WS1) sweep 470ish points of necrons on a single combat round.
gak happens. having the technical possibility to hurt stuff is never bad. at the very least it can hurt rear10 tanks in assault.
Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.
My R'varna one-shotted an Ironclad Dreadnought (which was too overconfident about its 6 attacks) right after I told my opponent Riptides suck in melee.
Just an FYI a Weapon Skill 2 model hits Weapon Skill 4 models in close combat n a 4+, not a 5+. 140 points for one of these with the cyclic gun and TL fusion blaster is pretty darned good.
BoomWolf wrote: Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.
I think the most accurate way to put it is it's not good for cost in CC.
3 attacks, 4+HoW if charging at S6 AP2 with 3+ T5 W4 in defence is a respectable combat statline, just not a high end dedicated combat unit combat statline. Outclasses most shooty things by a good stretch.
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Caederes wrote: Just an FYI a Weapon Skill 2 model hits Weapon Skill 4 models in close combat n a 4+, not a 5+. 140 points for one of these with the cyclic gun and TL fusion blaster is pretty darned good.
He'll most likely be confused by the misprint on the to WS vs WS to wound chart in the digital edition of the 7th ed core book.
It gives 2/4 as 5+ for some uncorrected messup reason.
The CIR is interesting, but not any better than what missile crisis already bring. a pair of missile crisis dishes out more S7AP4, from further away and cheaper.
The secondary guns...do not mesh.
The flamers are a point-defense weapon, nothing more. you never want them to be in range.
Upgrading to burst helps in the 18" band, but it requires getting a bit closer, for nothing more than a few S5AP5 shots, tau aint lacking there.
And the fusion wants to get up close and personal-but the rest of the suit does not. (and pairing it with main fusion gun means you paid 130 points for what is effectively 2 fusions)
Its cool and all-but I don't see what role it plays.
Might get one anyways though. got a feeling there will be a formation of this+stealth suits, and I've got 9 already.
It's a side grade to the HYMP sides. It offers much more mobility and toughness at the expense of firepower. There could be a niche situation where that is much better to have than the slow lumbering XV88.
I give the rules a 3/5. Adequate but niche. At least it's better than the disaster that was the stormsurge.
I will agree it's secondary weapon's don't synergise with it well at all. I would never consider taking these for fusion guns. Too expensive for that and you have nearly 3x the points tied up in melee if anything makes sit into melee.
The CIR is interesting, but not any better than what missile crisis already bring. a pair of missile crisis dishes out more S7AP4, from further away and cheaper.
The secondary guns...do not mesh.
The flamers are a point-defense weapon, nothing more. you never want them to be in range.
Upgrading to burst helps in the 18" band, but it requires getting a bit closer, for nothing more than a few S5AP5 shots, tau aint lacking there.
And the fusion wants to get up close and personal-but the rest of the suit does not. (and pairing it with main fusion gun means you paid 130 points for what is effectively 2 fusions)
Its cool and all-but I don't see what role it plays.
Might get one anyways though. got a feeling there will be a formation of this+stealth suits, and I've got 9 already.
Two current dual Missile Pod Crisis Suits are just over 100 points. This thing with a TL Fusion Blaster is 140 points. You basically pay 30-40 points (depending on the chosen secondary weapon) to have Toughness 5, two extra ablative wounds, pretty much a permanent 2+ cover save in the open when outside 12" of enemy units, a 2+ cover save in any kind of terrain regardless of enemy proximity, forcing a unit to snap fire at it once per game, monstrous creature rules/profile, much stronger melee presence and self defence, etc. It trades some firepower - you shoot two less shots at 12" less range but have a Twin-Linked secondary gun thrown in - for vastly improved durability in almost all cases. The smaller Battlesuits are the most efficient sources of firepower in the Tau codex but are also incredibly fragile, the Ghostkeel strikes the balance between the two well IMO as any actual S10 AP2 Ignores Cover hits it suffers can just be allocated to the Drones. It's virtually a T5 W6 Monstrous Creature with a 2+ save against almost all shooting with decent firepower, melee presence and mobility of its own all at a super low price.
The CIR is interesting, but not any better than what missile crisis already bring. a pair of missile crisis dishes out more S7AP4, from further away and cheaper.
The secondary guns...do not mesh.
The flamers are a point-defense weapon, nothing more. you never want them to be in range.
Upgrading to burst helps in the 18" band, but it requires getting a bit closer, for nothing more than a few S5AP5 shots, tau aint lacking there.
And the fusion wants to get up close and personal-but the rest of the suit does not. (and pairing it with main fusion gun means you paid 130 points for what is effectively 2 fusions)
Its cool and all-but I don't see what role it plays.
Might get one anyways though. got a feeling there will be a formation of this+stealth suits, and I've got 9 already.
That's pretty much where I'm sitting at it, sadly. I want to like it, I think it's a nice looking model, but I can't really figure out what the point of it is. It suffers from the same issue as the Stormsurge. There's better anti-tank in Tau, and much better anti-anfantry.
Neither model really does anything better than options already available. However, at least the GK is pretty cool looking.
BoomWolf wrote: And I've seen my equally CC incompetent riptide (actually even more, as he had ECPA who makes it WS1) sweep 470ish points of necrons on a single combat round.
gak happens. having the technical possibility to hurt stuff is never bad. at the very least it can hurt rear10 tanks in assault.
Its not GOOD at CC in any count, but it has a semblance of self defense there.
My R'varna one-shotted an Ironclad Dreadnought (which was too overconfident about its 6 attacks) right after I told my opponent Riptides suck in melee.
My lone Fire Warrior survived CC with a 1 HP Imp Knight who hit 1 of 4 melee attacks, rolled a 1 to wound, the FW hit with his EMP grenade, rolled a 6 to pen (purely to salt the wound), knight goes nuclear, blast scatters deeper into the ruins they where in and the cover save kept the Fire Warrior alive. Ish can happen but I wouldn't call that indicative of a Fire Warrior being good in CC against a Super Heavy Walker
The CIR is definitely the better weapon at first glance unless Fire Team/formations/etc affects it. A Strength 8 AP4 Large Blast buffed by potential Ignores Cover (if that stays) is still no joke for anti-infantry, and six Strength 7 AP4 shots plus four Strength 5 AP5 shots is fairly decent for what you pay and when buffed to Ballistic Skill 5 is quite potent against medium to light vehicles and monstrous creatures. The mix of durability and mobility on this thing is what makes it work for sure, opponents that lack Ignores Cover will struggle to get to grips with it.
Tinkrr wrote: So did anyone notice they made a box set for the "Armoured Interdiction Cadre", that's pretty interesting.
It's not a box. It's a bundle.
No image of a box equals a bundle, which equals no real savings.
When Apocalypse first came out though, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre did actually have a boxed set. Same with a Tau "Rapid Insertion Force"(9x Crisis Suits and 3x Stealth Suits).
A Ghostkeel with the CIS is strictly better than an Ion-Accelerator equipped Riptide against vehicles, funnily enough. Double the Strength 7 shots, similar anti-tank firepower from the secondary weapons, etc that the AP2 is cancelled out. Of course against anything else the Riptide wins in a firepower fight and is much harder to kill where Ignores Cover/small arms fire/melee attacks are concerned. This is also quite a bit cheaper than a Riptide. It definitely has its place as the things that usually kill Riptides will bounce right off of a Ghostkeel. Also, Ghostkeels with their Drones laugh at Graviton weapons which is amusing.
Caederes wrote: A Ghostkeel with the CIS is strictly better than an Ion-Accelerator equipped Riptide against vehicles, funnily enough. Double the Strength 7 shots, similar anti-tank firepower from the secondary weapons, etc that the AP2 is cancelled out. Of course against anything else the Riptide wins in a firepower fight and is much harder to kill where Ignores Cover/small arms fire/melee attacks are concerned. This is also quite a bit cheaper than a Riptide. It definitely has its place as the things that usually kill Riptides will bounce right off of a Ghostkeel.
Good point. I'm going to make it a point to pick up one for sure. The problem is though with Riptides you can have HYMP broadsides nearby to support them. Which puts out much more firepower, but granted aren't as strong.
Tinkrr wrote: So did anyone notice they made a box set for the "Armoured Interdiction Cadre", that's pretty interesting.
It's not a box. It's a bundle.
No image of a box equals a bundle, which equals no real savings.
When Apocalypse first came out though, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre did actually have a boxed set. Same with a Tau "Rapid Insertion Force"(9x Crisis Suits and 3x Stealth Suits).
Fair enough, but why did they put it out now? I thought that formation thing went extinct and I don't see a way to field all four tanks in a base codex list D:
Gamgee wrote: Like I said it has it's niche. Somewhere in the middle ranks of your army. You don't want it out on the front line.
Still... the big thing is it has to compete with freaking Riptides man!
Riptides!! Since it's in an elite slot. I just can't justify taking two of these instead of two Riptides if I was going for maximum cheese.
The Riptide is so cool I have this as its theme song.
I don't know about you Gamgee, but I'm surely using the new Decurion-style formations. A CAD will be used just for my FW stuff
True true. We'll have to see how good ours are. This is the make it or break it phase for if Tau Empire will be relevant again. By themselves the units are mediocre and merely good (so far). If the formations are good though it could boost our viability big time.
Gamgee wrote: Like I said it has it's niche. Somewhere in the middle ranks of your army. You don't want it out on the front line.
Vectored Retro-Thrusters are currently still a thing. Since this beast is not a Riptide, they(and their Drones) can gain Hit and Run. Initiative test of 4(characteristics tests go against the highest value in the unit per p13 of the BRB), so on a 1-4 they're disengaging 3D6.
And that WS2? That's not as bad as you might think given that it being a Monstrous Creature means it can cause Fear(a minor consolation to the Tau player certainly, but something that could potentially alter the dynamic of a fight) when going against something that has a LD value, and that it's attacking with 3 S6 AP2 attacks or a single S10 AP2 attack which can reroll Armour Penetration rolls and a single automatic hit via HoW at S6 AP-.
Now of course VRT are subject to change when the Codex hits, but this thing can be mean as all get out--even if you opt not to ever use it as an annoyance in CC through its use of a Thrust Move after unloading Melta at short range.
Still... the big thing is it has to compete with freaking Riptides man!
Riptides!! Since it's in an elite slot. I just can't justify taking two of these instead of two Riptides if I was going for maximum cheese.
No. It really does not have to compete with anything unless they do not make this book a Decurion styled setup.
I mean come on. We all know how these book setups work now, right? The "unique" CAD for the army will not be the same as the traditional 1 HQ 2 Troops and the rest. To think that this thing is going to be competing in anything beyond points is patently silly.
Tinkrr wrote: So did anyone notice they made a box set for the "Armoured Interdiction Cadre", that's pretty interesting.
It's not a box. It's a bundle.
No image of a box equals a bundle, which equals no real savings.
When Apocalypse first came out though, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre did actually have a boxed set. Same with a Tau "Rapid Insertion Force"(9x Crisis Suits and 3x Stealth Suits).
Fair enough, but why did they put it out now? I thought that formation thing went extinct and I don't see a way to field all four tanks in a base codex list D:
We're supposed to see a new Codex soon. It might be that it got put up early or they just don't care. I posted up the "Oc-tau-ber is here" thing that they posted on the Warhammer App which basically says "New Codex and Supplements!", so I think they're trying to actually put the word out more than a week in advance for some stuff.
The fact that the product description on the AIC says the following?
This awesome bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Armoured Interdiction Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
It basically all but smacks you upside the head and says "THIS IS A FORMATION IN THE NEW TAU EMPIRE CODEX!!!1!"--yes, in all caps as well.
Kanluwen wrote: It basically all but smacks you upside the head and says "THIS IS A FORMATION IN THE NEW TAU EMPIRE CODEX!!!1!"--yes, in all caps as well.
It wouldn't be the first formation they copy-pasted from Apoc into 7e 40k.
I'm now really starting to think that Fire Team is that each Ghostkeel and their attendant drones are counted as a "unit".
I suspect it is some ability to split unit fire. I also suspect it might be a Universal Tau rule applicable to most units, not just these or stealth suits.
Of course I have no knowledge of that...just a guess.
Kanluwen wrote: It basically all but smacks you upside the head and says "THIS IS A FORMATION IN THE NEW TAU EMPIRE CODEX!!!1!"--yes, in all caps as well.
It wouldn't be the first formation they copy-pasted from Apoc into 7e 40k.
Except it isn't. no current tau formation mixes both hammerheads and skyrays.
Tau having WS2 isnt that big of a dock, the fact that they have no melee weapons is more of a problem than their WS.
I still refuse to play without my Gauntlet because of the one time i splatted a Daemon Prince with it. 6th ed rules, he dropped out of the sky and charged my buffmander. Wiffed all except 1 of his S10 AP2 Smash attacked, i 4++'d the last one and Gauntlet'd his face
Riptide's main problem is lack of attacks, so it can be tarpitted. Squads of 3 with Ghostkeels can actually lay in some hurt except against HUGE blobs of models or ones that are significantly more equipped for the job (termies, melee MCs, etc). And Ghostkeels are clearly about evasion since theyre intended to be hard to hit, i wouldnt doubt it if they can still get VRT and not get denied it like riptides.
The drones that come with the Ghostkeel are most likely like the Riptide's shielded missile drones - theyre not MC's, theyre just matching toughness to not eff up the toughness of the model in question. Meaning i'd be surprised if they werent T5 themselves, probably with the typical 4+ armor and no invul considering the other rules they bring instead. And atleast they dont cost an arm and a leg to bring this time lol. Missile drones on riptides posed more problems than benefits but costing 25pts each didnt help it at ALL
Nilok wrote: The holophoton countermeasures seem to encurage multiple Ghostkeels, since you can fire it from each model one at a time, so a full unit can force snapfire 3 units a game.
No, all three must use their countermeasures at once, they can't reserve their own uses for later.:
Declare that the unit will use the holophotonic countermeasures
You can activate the countermeasures when a model is targeted, but then the whole unit will use theirs whether they want it or not.
This is the line I was referring to.
One ber battle, in the enemy Shooting phase, a model equipped with the holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy units that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to.
The way it is setup is a bit odd.
Probably going to start a YMDC when the WD drops.
By the by, I noticed something in this image.
Look to the rear left of the Ghostkeel. You're looking for a slender spire with a pair of Hammerhead styled railguns on them.
The mounting that they are attached to? That's not the Hammerhead's mount. I think we just got shown a "Vengeance Weapon Battery" styled piece for the Tau.
I'm now really starting to think that Fire Team is that each Ghostkeel and their attendant drones are counted as a "unit".
I suspect it is some ability to split unit fire. I also suspect it might be a Universal Tau rule applicable to most units, not just these or stealth suits.
Of course I have no knowledge of that...just a guess.
We'll have to wait and see more rules, but it is rather interesting that this "Fire Team" rule was not present on the Stormsurge.
I can understand "Supporting Fire" not being present, but honestly? The more I think about it, the more I think that this might be related to any combination of a Battlesuit and attached Drones.
Kind of a unit within a unit deal.
So the Cyclic Ion Raker doesnt seem that astounding to me. 6 shots is nice and all, but AP4/24" range. How come the Ion Rifle has 30" range but this vastly bigger gun has 24?
That being said, im glad they made the two weapon options viable unlike the Riptide. HBC's are way too risky to use unless you did the buffmander/taudar bullcrap of the last edition, considering its a terrible weapon without nova charge/heavy ML support. Get those, and its infinitely nastier than the IA, dont get it and its virtually useless. I can easily see a use for both the Ghostkeel's guns. Dumping 3 S8 AP1 blasts sounds nice and juicy, not to mention doubling up with TL Fusions makes this unit capable of ripping vehicles to shreds.
There is one thing about the Raker that bugs me though. Every single Ion Gun's Overcharge is better than its Normal shot with the risk of Gets Hot obviously. The options really are only there for single targets or airborne targets. Im not sure if i like the Raker's overcharge. I mean, S8 is wonderful to get but AP4 means it wont be reliably killing much, and Gets Hot problems on top of that. Its not bad, but compared to the 6 shots of the normal firing method i dont think its "better" to justify the Gets Hot risk.
I kinda like the Drones' rule. Its a rather unique concept and makes people want to kill those things first instead of the Ghostkeel. More security with more Ghostkeels as well. Something funny though. Theyre not MC's, so once the Ghostkeels die (if the drones somehow survive afterwords) they can have a commander attach to them and make the commander have stealth + shroud. Unlikely to be useful but interesting thought. Ive always been a bigger fan of models giving the unit rules rather than the unit just simply having it. Most of the unit-wide rules we get make more sense to me to have a special model give it (any race not just tau)
I kinda like the Drones' rule. Its a rather unique concept and makes people want to kill those things first instead of the Ghostkeel. More security with more Ghostkeels as well.
Something funny though. Theyre not MC's, so once the Ghostkeels die (if the drones somehow survive afterwords) they can have a commander attach to them and make the commander have stealth + shroud. Unlikely to be useful but interesting thought.
That's assuming Drone rules remain the same.
Drones might be getting altered to be treated as separate models but are part of the Wargear for a Battlesuit.
Eh, you really don't need long range on a JSJ platform, especially one with move through cover so it can casually hop up levels and be a ton harder to assault.
I suppose that if you play with a horrendously low amount of terrain it might be an issue.
Actually i have really bad luck doing the JSJ tactics to keep a distance.
Thats why my Stealthsuit squad kinda became a midfield Markerlight platform. I always, ALWAYS either flopped the jump saves from the terrain or ended up rolling 2-4" on the jump and totally didnt get away.
Also why i tend to dislike crisis suit bombs. I can never seem to keep them alive beyond the first turn, even with drone blobs for extra wounds. Just can never seem to be close enough for rapid fire plasma or Melta bonus and jump far enough away to dodge a charge or a short range nasty gun.
Fair enough, but why did they put it out now? I thought that formation thing went extinct and I don't see a way to field all four tanks in a base codex list D:
We're supposed to see a new Codex soon. It might be that it got put up early or they just don't care. I posted up the "Oc-tau-ber is here" thing that they posted on the Warhammer App which basically says "New Codex and Supplements!", so I think they're trying to actually put the word out more than a week in advance for some stuff.
The fact that the product description on the AIC says the following?
This awesome bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Armoured Interdiction Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
It basically all but smacks you upside the head and says "THIS IS A FORMATION IN THE NEW TAU EMPIRE CODEX!!!1!"--yes, in all caps as well.
Basically what I'm getting at D:
But yea, do you think it'll be the same formation as before? That would be a little sad as that one wasn't that strong, and had a really high commitment. It would be cool to see something that gives us a little more, such as a free Hammerhead with the purchase of three other vehicles, but that would be too much I guess. I mean maybe it's worth taking three Skyrays, but generally it feels like two is enough D:
Speaking of formations, if Riptides get the squadron of 3 treatment i wonder how the formation of 3 Riptides is going to be affected. That formation was basically 3 Riptides in a "squad" without being in a squad (larger unit coherency rules) and rerollable nova charges.
....so...multiply by 3 for 9 Riptides in the formation? O.o
Vineheart01 wrote: So the Cyclic Ion Raker doesnt seem that astounding to me. 6 shots is nice and all, but AP4/24" range. How come the Ion Rifle has 30" range but this vastly bigger gun has 24?
Curious. I've seen Knight players fearing this thing.
HBC can't beat S8 AP2 Interceptor Large Blast. It's one of the main reasons people loathe the Riptide. Without Farsight Enclaves' Earth Caste Pilot Array, I'd never field a HBC Riptide.
Vineheart01 wrote: Its not bad, but compared to the 6 shots of the normal firing method i dont think its "better" to justify the Gets Hot risk.
When you find packed enemies, a Large Blast is much better than 6 single shots. Or multi-wound T4- models.
Vineheart01 wrote: Theyre not MC's, so once the Ghostkeels die (if the drones somehow survive afterwords) they can have a commander attach to them and make the commander have stealth + shroud. Unlikely to be useful but interesting thought.
Oh yeah, Ethereals too. Considering i usually leave mine in the car (devilfish) whenever i field one because Firewarrior squads get mopped up too fast when hes in it.
Fishboy wrote: Please....for the love of all Holy....please stop using all the acronyms. This is a forum not text chatting hehe What the heck is an HBC?
And on a side note where are the rules for the remora drones?
Heavy Burst Cannon - the Riptide's stock weapon (big-ass chaingun).
Remora's rules are in the Imperial Armour 3 - The Taros Campaign (2nd edition)
Hummm...its pretty much like damocles hammerhead cadre. if it stays like this, I'm probably fielding this.
Auto marker hits are the bane of invisiblity/flyers. now to just hope markers can still buff snapshots, and that railguns gets the much needed upgrade.
Okay reading the full rule set on BOLS the forced snap fire is frigging awesome. Once per game a model with this rule may use it. This means if you have three of these things in a unit you get to use it three times. I want nine...and only because I can't afford 18 heheh....anyone need a Kidney or blood hehehe
Fishboy wrote: Okay reading the full rule set on BOLS the forced snap fire is frigging awesome. Once per game a model with this rule may use it. This means if you have three of these things in a unit you get to use it three times. I want nine...and only because I can't afford 18 heheh....anyone need a Kidney or blood hehehe
I got a feeling they will. None of our new stuff has been any sort of anti-tank units. I suppose our only hopes left are 1. Breachers are anti tank infaantry? Maybe? or 2. A new weapon for the reboxed XV8, but that's still relying on XV8's and whatever new weapon they might get. 3. An existing unit is buffed to be a good anti-tank/tough big thing unit. I'm hoping our rail rifles
Though I find option three to to be the most likely.
Fishboy wrote: Okay reading the full rule set on BOLS the forced snap fire is frigging awesome. Once per game a model with this rule may use it. This means if you have three of these things in a unit you get to use it three times. I want nine...and only because I can't afford 18 heheh....anyone need a Kidney or blood hehehe
Not to make this a YMDC discussion or derail the thread, but it very clearly says a model with the holophoton countermeasures may use them when the unit is targeted, and the whole unit benefits from it. The only way to read it (from my perspective at least, so take it as you will) as all 3 must be used at once is to ignore the first half of the description.
Looking at the leaked pics right now. The exact wording is:
Once per battle, in the enemy shooting phase, a model (emphasis mine) equipped with holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to. Declare that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures after the enemy unit has chosen it as a target, but before any hit rolls are made. The enemy unit can only make snap shots in that shooting phase.
From my reading of it, the rule states that a single model with the countermeasures can choose to activate it, and the whole unit gets the benefit, hence the usage of the word unit in the second sentence, otherwise the wording would imply that only the one model would get the benefit, and the other Ghostkeels and the Drones would not benefit from it. I can see how it could be read the other way as you are saying and they all have to be used at once, but doing so does require you to ignore the whole first sentence of the description.
Nope. It clearly says to declare that "... the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures..." You want it to say 'model' when it clearly says 'unit'.
GI_Redshirt wrote: Looking at the leaked pics right now. The exact wording is:
Once per battle, in the enemy shooting phase, a model (emphasis mine) equipped with holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to. Declare that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures after the enemy unit has chosen it as a target, but before any hit rolls are made. The enemy unit can only make snap shots in that shooting phase.
From my reading of it, the rule states that a single model with the countermeasures can choose to activate it, and the whole unit gets the benefit, hence the usage of the word unit in the second sentence, otherwise the wording would imply that only the one model would get the benefit, and the other Ghostkeels and the Drones would not benefit from it. I can see how it could be read the other way as you are saying and they all have to be used at once, but doing so does require you to ignore the whole first sentence of the description.
I kind of like the model, as a big stealth suit is a cool concept.
I am a bit ...underwhelmed with the rules - just as many others are.
Its not ...bad...its just not....good. Again, what is the role for this thing?
What does it bring to the table we don't have already?
18" melta on a jsj platform - got that
S7ap4 on a jsj platform - got that.
Stealthy MC - ok, thats new....
So...its for when you have an opponnent with a LOT of krak missiles (which kill the other options...).
I can maybe see it as a point where I chose durability (the 2+ stealth save) over firepower and I want a JSJ melta/Missile pod.
In my experience in the current game, I need to firepower more - perhaps once we have the entire codex, and the context of all the new units / formations - it will find a solid role.
It might be a good firemagnet / distraction unit....after all, I have said time and time again - you don't have to beat the enemy army - you just have to defeat the other player - and getting them to make mistakes in target priority - is one of the best ways.
Here is hoping the book is good with a lot of strong builds, but not OP.
@ Krazynade- As am I however I can see the contention as well. Either way I am hoping this is a good counter to Grav spam. Majority armor 4+, 2+ cover, drones to soak up wounds, at least one round of firing basically with invisibility, good AP 2 weapon to get past Cents. I like it. I am dreaming about the formations now heheh.
Yeah, that is definitely another debate intended to shaft poor wording. Makes 0 sense to force you to buy 3 holophotons if you have to use them simo. Kinda like the debate about GMC's firing two or all weapons considering the wording is fuzzy yet damn near every GMC is loaded in small arms for some reason.
I despise RAW discussions. Considering GW doesnt write their rules for tournament play, there can never be a solid answer for a TON of rule discussions. The game is much more enjoyable/fun if you just play logically not RAW.
And yes i have ruled logically against me as well. All to avoid such pointless RAW discussions.
Back to the Ghostkeel.
Admittedly the Melta-combo may not be a sure-fire antivehicle tactic, its better than crisis suits doing it since its insanely unlikely the Ghostkeel squad will die after getting the double-armor pen benefits of Melta. Yea its a bit more expensive but im probably still going to do it lol.
Find it odd the Ghostkeel doesnt have Infiltrate, unless im just completely missing something (such as what the hell Fire Team means). However it can still deepstrike and jsj. Perhaps we will finally have deepstriking MC's that are worth deepstriking?
....now that i say that i realize they have a huge footprint in a full squad LOL nevermind!
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah, that is definitely another debate intended to shaft poor wording. Makes 0 sense to force you to buy 3 holophotons if you have to use them simo. Kinda like the debate about GMC's firing two or all weapons considering the wording is fuzzy yet damn near every GMC is loaded in small arms for some reason.
I despise RAW discussions. Considering GW doesnt write their rules for tournament play, there can never be a solid answer for a TON of rule discussions. The game is much more enjoyable/fun if you just play logically not RAW.
And yes i have ruled logically against me as well. All to avoid such pointless RAW discussions.
Back to the Ghostkeel.
Admittedly the Melta-combo may not be a sure-fire antivehicle tactic, its better than crisis suits doing it since its insanely unlikely the Ghostkeel squad will die after getting the double-armor pen benefits of Melta. Yea its a bit more expensive but im probably still going to do it lol.
Find it odd the Ghostkeel doesnt have Infiltrate, unless im just completely missing something (such as what the hell Fire Team means). However it can still deepstrike and jsj. Perhaps we will finally have deepstriking MC's that are worth deepstriking?
....now that i say that i realize they have a huge footprint in a full squad LOL nevermind!
The rules are clear: the whole unit must do so to gain the effect. This is what allows the drones attached to the Ghostkeel to also benefit from the effect.
I don't see squads of Ghostkeels DS-ing in, but a single one should prove quite potent and effective.
Back on topic, I definitely plan on using these guys as a unit of 2 or 3 with Ion Rakers and TL Fusion. A unit of 3 puts out 6 more S7 shots than both 3 man Broadside Team and 3 man Crisis Team with Missile Pods. And does it with a single weapon, meaning it can still fire it's second weapon as well. Granted, it is doing so at 24" instead of 36", but a Ghostkeel team is more than survivable enough to get closer to the enemy. Plus the S8 large blast is a great bonus, and even with AP4 will still scare T4 characters.
The Fusion blaster seems like the obvious choice to me. 3 TL S8 AP1 shots is quite good for assassinating characters and backup anti-tank, especially since TL reduces the need for markerlights. Use the Ion Raker to whittle down a squad of meatshields or strip hull points, then use the Fusion to finish off the character or tank. The Flamer just doesn't seem worth it. Too short ranged, and overwatching with these guys doesn't seem like a big deal, as they are arguably the best CC unit Tau has now, and anything that can reliably beat them in CC won't care about 3 flamers on overwatch. The only time I'd use it is if I were strapped for points. The TLBC isn't bad, making the Ghostkeels supped up Broadsides, but 18" S5 doesn't really feel necessary with these guys, unless you're facing a horde army. I'd rather have the added punch on meltas.
The double melta option just doesn't work for me. More reliable than dual fusion blaster Crisis Suits (blasts and TL make markerlights less necessary and are more likely the hit than 2 normal shots), but without DSing are gonna have a hard time getting in range to use them, and simply have too big of a footprint to DS effectively (pretty sure a 3 man Crisis Team has a smaller overall footrpint than one Ghostkeel). Against a TEQ army like Deathwing, Grey Knights, or Wolf Guard, yeah I could see them being used. But it's just like the Broadside problem. A single S8 AP1 shot, even a melta blast, is not as good as 6 S7 AP4 shots with the option for a S8 AP4 large blast.
Overall I am very happy with these guys, and am definitely gonna be fielding a unit of 3 as often as I can. And the model is gorgeous too, probably my favorite battlesuit model.
Fishboy wrote: Okay reading the full rule set on BOLS the forced snap fire is frigging awesome. Once per game a model with this rule may use it. This means if you have three of these things in a unit you get to use it three times. I want nine...and only because I can't afford 18 heheh....anyone need a Kidney or blood hehehe
Maybe it's awesome, Maybe you want 9 or 19, or Maybe you need a kidney or blood?
Incidentally, reading the rules on BoLS -- the Ghostkeel looks great for 130 points. I like the model, too -- just not the red head as painted on the cover art.
Given the bonuses the way that the drone bonuses are worded, I do wonder if the Fireteam rule will let you count the model plus drones as a single entity for the purposes of joining other units.
I also like the Ghostkeel.
Like the model.
Like the rules.
The Cyclic ion Raker seems a better and better looking option than the Fusion collider though.
Melta blast is usually not the most trustworthy type of firepower.
I also wonder if it can take a drone controller and extra shield or gun drones; that would be VERY nice.
I often used a 2 fusion crisis suit to deep strike somewhere and take an important target out. The Ghostkeel kan do that a lot better and also survice the following turn a lot better.
I like it. It's not something you make an army of, but if Stealth teams get a bit better (maybe also get stealth drones), then Tau get a whole different way to play the army.
I am one of those people who really dislike this model, but it does have some cool elements I'd like to have in my drawer for conversions.
Also there was a range update:
"Range Updates
Our ranges are updated all the time as we bring in exciting new products and retire older slower selling ones."
(...)
Best Seller 1 (removed): Tau Fire Warrior team
Best Seller 1 (removed): Tau Crisis Battlesuit Team
I wonder if the FWs got a complete rework (Crisis suits are almost surely redone) or just a reboxing and the breacher unit will be a new box. I would LOL if the only thing we got is new heads, weapons and shoulder pads for the breacher variant and the rest would be the old FW parts maybe with the decals... That could explain why there will be 10 FWs in the box now and would mean no additional drones in the set...
Jadenim wrote: Given the bonuses the way that the drone bonuses are worded, I do wonder if the Fireteam rule will let you count the model plus drones as a single entity for the purposes of joining other units.
The wording also makes me wonder if they are standard issue drones that anyone can buy. Grab a ~20 point upgrade and give a snipe-able stealth upgrade to your fire warriors for instance.
I am one of those people who really dislike this model, but it does have some cool elements I'd like to have in my drawer for conversions.
After looking at it properly, have to say I'm pretty nonplussed by this. Its the same design only bigger and with a few cosmetics. Wheres the NEW from GW nowadays? This is treading water.
After looking at it properly, have to say I'm pretty nonplussed by this. Its the same design only bigger and with a few cosmetics. Wheres the NEW from GW nowadays? This is treading water.
I agree that "MAKE IT BIGGER" replaced innovation and originality at GW. As I said, I really dislike this miniature with the exception of a few tiny parts I'd like to have for conversions.
After looking at it properly, have to say I'm pretty nonplussed by this. Its the same design only bigger and with a few cosmetics. Wheres the NEW from GW nowadays? This is treading water.
I agree that "MAKE IT BIGGER" replaced innovation and originality at GW. As I said, I really dislike this miniature with the exception of a few tiny parts I'd like to have for conversions.
cheers
Kahnawake
I don't really dislike it nor do I really like it. I just find it "oh, its bigger. Okay. Next please"
Well, as someone who's only been paying Tau since the Riptide codex came out and were suddenly the top of the tourney charts, I think the Ghostsuck is garbage. It's not stupidly durable with too much firepower for its cost. I'm going to go play Eldar WK spam now.
changemod wrote: I have a suspicion Fire Team is the activation rule for the Decurion bonus, as in "All models with fire team get XYZ".
In which case the actual benefit is likely to be relatively small.
I agree with the first part, but not the second.
The core-auxiliary-command formation bonuses are pretty spectacular for most of the factions so far. Look how good the Mechanicus turned out, for instance. I would be shocked if the superformation bonus was a small one... I'm expecting something jaw dropping, that makes everyone go out and buy a bunch of Tau models so that they can build the formation.
changemod wrote: I have a suspicion Fire Team is the activation rule for the Decurion bonus, as in "All models with fire team get XYZ".
In which case the actual benefit is likely to be relatively small.
I agree with the first part, but not the second.
The core-auxiliary-command formation bonuses are pretty spectacular for most of the factions so far. Look how good the Mechanicus turned out, for instance. I would be shocked if the superformation bonus was a small one... I'm expecting something jaw dropping, that makes everyone go out and buy a bunch of Tau models so that they can build the formation.
You misread a little:
I'm saying Fire Team itself is probably minor, partially because the Decurion bonus given to all models with Fire Team would be guaranteed to be amazingly good.
changemod wrote: I have a suspicion Fire Team is the activation rule for the Decurion bonus, as in "All models with fire team get XYZ".
In which case the actual benefit is likely to be relatively small.
I agree with the first part, but not the second.
The core-auxiliary-command formation bonuses are pretty spectacular for most of the factions so far. Look how good the Mechanicus turned out, for instance. I would be shocked if the superformation bonus was a small one... I'm expecting something jaw dropping, that makes everyone go out and buy a bunch of Tau models so that they can build the formation.
I would expect either increased mobility such as run and shoot, or increased shooting during your turn.
Then again, with the range of some of the new guns, I wouldn't be surprised if it is something like add X" to your weapon profile(s).
Okay GW, you've showcased (leaked) some fantastic new large-scale suits, but what about the little guys??
GW just got everything wrong again and thinks the huge guy was the most aniticipated sales-wise.
cheers
Kahnawake
The big units are most likely considered to have a higher WOW! factor for attracting new buyers than updated versions of already existing things.
And hey look at that, there's no updated codex yet... so maybe GW is trying to drum up interest first and foremost in new customers? Maybe once they've got the shiny toys out of the way they'll formally reveal the new Crisis and Fire Warriors that we've already seen anyway?
Us Tau players who compete in the ITC format need your HELP!!
Right now the ITC is letting people vote to allow Experimental Rule in. this would include both the Tau XV107 R'varna and XV109 Y'Vahra Battlesuit. which if you asked me has sat on the self for to damn long! This is our chance to change all of this! Cast your vote and support your Tau brethren !
Us Tau players who compete in the ITC format need your HELP!!
Right now the ITC is letting people vote to allow Experimental Rule in. this would include both the Tau XV107 R'varna and XV109 Y'Vahra Battlesuit. which if you asked me has sat on the self for to damn long! This is our chance to change all of this! Cast your vote and support your Tau brethren !
Might as well allow experimental rules. Do people honestly believe there is any difference between standard untested rules and untested rules that are labeled "experimental"?
Us Tau players who compete in the ITC format need your HELP!!
Right now the ITC is letting people vote to allow Experimental Rule in. this would include both the Tau XV107 R'varna and XV109 Y'Vahra Battlesuit. which if you asked me has sat on the self for to damn long! This is our chance to change all of this! Cast your vote and support your Tau brethren !
Might as well allow experimental rules. Do people honestly believe there is any difference between standard untested rules and untested rules that are labeled "experimental"?
Forgewrold's experimental are sometimes really out there rule-wise because they try new untested mechanics for the first time.
The things that actually get into books are often far better balanced, despite what some people try to claim.
Forgewrold's experimental are sometimes really out there rule-wise because they try new untested mechanics for the first time.
The things that actually get into books are often far better balanced, despite what some people try to claim.
Erm... and how do you propose to balance them without... testing them?
I hope they allow. Tourney testing is the best way to find how strong a unit really is
Forgewrold's experimental are sometimes really out there rule-wise because they try new untested mechanics for the first time.
The things that actually get into books are often far better balanced, despite what some people try to claim.
Erm... and how do you propose to balance them without... testing them?
I hope they allow. Tourney testing is the best way to find how strong a unit really is
Can you name a unit with the experimental rule that is more "out the rule-wise" then the eldar wraith knight ? Or even comes close to that ?
Okay GW, you've showcased (leaked) some fantastic new large-scale suits, but what about the little guys??
GW just got everything wrong again and thinks the huge guy was the most aniticipated sales-wise.
cheers
Kahnawake
I don't understand the Tau thinking for the stormsurge as honestly i always thought large targets were to be engaged via Aircaste craft. that the Manta was the titan-killer
its interesting certainly. But something makes me think its a step back in tau technology.
Quite like the Ghostkeel.
ill just wait on the fire warriors if there are new ones. that n crisis suits
I don't understand the Tau thinking for the stormsurge as honestly i always thought large targets were to be engaged via Aircaste craft. that the Manta was the titan-killer
The Manta is a transport/gunship. The Tiger Shark A-X-1 is the "titan-killer" but as per the Democles Warzone books (IIRC), it pretty much failed to live up to the expectations and the idea was scrapped.
changemod wrote: I have a suspicion Fire Team is the activation rule for the Decurion bonus, as in "All models with fire team get XYZ".
In which case the actual benefit is likely to be relatively small.
I agree with the first part, but not the second.
The core-auxiliary-command formation bonuses are pretty spectacular for most of the factions so far. Look how good the Mechanicus turned out, for instance. I would be shocked if the superformation bonus was a small one... I'm expecting something jaw dropping, that makes everyone go out and buy a bunch of Tau models so that they can build the formation.
You realize that Mechanicus don't get the "Core-Auxiliary-Command" setup right?
We got unique CADs that still are the whole "HQ, Troops, Elites, HS"(Cult Mechanicus) or "Troops, FA, Elites, HS"(Skitarii) schtick. If I had a Decurion styled book, the hell I could bring with my Skitarii would be phenomenal.
Forgewrold's experimental are sometimes really out there rule-wise because they try new untested mechanics for the first time.
The things that actually get into books are often far better balanced, despite what some people try to claim.
Erm... and how do you propose to balance them without... testing them?
I hope they allow. Tourney testing is the best way to find how strong a unit really is
Can you name a unit with the experimental rule that is more "out the rule-wise" then the eldar wraith knight ? Or even comes close to that ?
On it's first deplyment it one-shot a titian. Methinks it did live up to it's expectation.
In that one case, it certainly did. Guess' it couldn't keep up though. By the time of the Democles campaign, the Tau had no A-X-1 in service and they were already tinkering with a land-based solution (the RIptide), that's for sure.
On it's first deplyment it one-shot a titian. Methinks it did live up to it's expectation.
In that one case, it certainly did. Guess' it couldn't keep up though. By the time of the Democles campaign, the Tau had no A-X-1 in service and they were already tinkering with a land-based solution (the RIptide), that's for sure.
No... The ripdide was never an anti-titian weapon. The AX-1-0 is still their go-to anti-titian, at least until the emergence of the tau'nar. It's just never mentioned because it's FW. And GW writers like to conveniently forget that the tigershark exists.
I've been thinking about the holophoton countermeasures.
Given the unit's other great defensive measure based on it's stealth technology, I'm somewhat glad these additional countermeasures are extremely limited in scope(That is not to say I find it to be a non-valuable tactical asset.)
I suspect the countermeasures are meant to dissolve One powerful alpha strike on the unit, such as being fired on by a squadron of demolisher tanks(whose str 10 might be enough to pop a couple of the suits in a lucky shot if the drone were already reduced.
On that note specifically, a squadron of demolishers declare fire on a ghostkeel unit, before the roll to hit, you declare countermeasures, the demolishers can only fire snap shots. that means no Demolisher cannon fire that turn, correct?
To me this seems like a device that is best used if it is never used, a deterrant from ever wanting to throw any hard fire on the unit from a single source. The Ghostkeel squadrons are perfectly capably of absorbing Mizia fire, so their only fear is avoiding a massive strike by an uber firepower unit (well that, and HTH by hordes or str10 ap3 attacks, or Jaws of the worldwolf.)
Still pretty solid.
I have to say I might need to buy 6 of these. the Stormsurge gives me little joy as I've always likes the canon that Tau superheavies were flying units and slow giant walkers seem antithetical to their method of war. The GhostKeel however is kind of everything I ever wanted Crisis suits to be....except bigger!
On it's first deplyment it one-shot a titian. Methinks it did live up to it's expectation.
In that one case, it certainly did. Guess' it couldn't keep up though. By the time of the Democles campaign, the Tau had no A-X-1 in service and they were already tinkering with a land-based solution (the RIptide), that's for sure.
Taros, where the AX-1 came into experimental service, occurred in 998.M41
The Damocles Gulf Crusade took place in 742-745.M41.
There was a full 256 year difference between the two events.
Okay, you guys do realize that it's all made up, right? The fact is, the writers can make up any storyline they want, and it becomes "fact." So the next Tau IA book could come right out and say "and then we figured out the Tigershark sucked big balls, so we made the Tau'anur instead."
Arguing over what actually happened in the made up world that can get changed at a moments notice is patently absurd.
On it's first deplyment it one-shot a titian. Methinks it did live up to it's expectation.
In that one case, it certainly did. Guess' it couldn't keep up though. By the time of the Democles campaign, the Tau had no A-X-1 in service and they were already tinkering with a land-based solution (the RIptide), that's for sure.
Taros, where the AX-1 came into experimental service, occurred in 998.M41
The Damocles Gulf Crusade took place in 742-745.M41.
There was a full 256 year difference between the two events.
This is the other Democles, the new one with Agrellan, Kor'sarro Khan, Shrike, Voltoris, and Shadowsun trying (and failing miserably) to use Mont'ka. It happens in M41.999, roughly a year after Taros.
vitae_drinker wrote: Okay, you guys do realize that it's all made up, right? The fact is, the writers can make up any storyline they want, and it becomes "fact." So the next Tau IA book could come right out and say "and then we figured out the Tigershark sucked big balls, so we made the Tau'anur instead."
Arguing over what actually happened in the made up world that can get changed at a moments notice is patently absurd.
There is, of course , a truth to that.
But the concept of Canon is something that is always considered when making changes to your imaginary world.
vitae_drinker wrote: Okay, you guys do realize that it's all made up, right? The fact is, the writers can make up any storyline they want, and it becomes "fact." So the next Tau IA book could come right out and say "and then we figured out the Tigershark sucked big balls, so we made the Tau'anur instead."
Arguing over what actually happened in the made up world that can get changed at a moments notice is patently absurd.
Have an exalt for making me laugh out loud in public hehe...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
derling wrote: I've been thinking about the holophoton countermeasures.
Given the unit's other great defensive measure based on it's stealth technology, I'm somewhat glad these additional countermeasures are extremely limited in scope(That is not to say I find it to be a non-valuable tactical asset.)
I suspect the countermeasures are meant to dissolve One powerful alpha strike on the unit, such as being fired on by a squadron of demolisher tanks(whose str 10 might be enough to pop a couple of the suits in a lucky shot if the drone were already reduced.
On that note specifically, a squadron of demolishers declare fire on a ghostkeel unit, before the roll to hit, you declare countermeasures, the demolishers can only fire snap shots. that means no Demolisher cannon fire that turn, correct?
To me this seems like a device that is best used if it is never used, a deterrant from ever wanting to throw any hard fire on the unit from a single source. The Ghostkeel squadrons are perfectly capably of absorbing Mizia fire, so their only fear is avoiding a massive strike by an uber firepower unit (well that, and HTH by hordes or str10 ap3 attacks, or Jaws of the worldwolf.)
Still pretty solid.
I have to say I might need to buy 6 of these. the Stormsurge gives me little joy as I've always likes the canon that Tau superheavies were flying units and slow giant walkers seem antithetical to their method of war. The GhostKeel however is kind of everything I ever wanted Crisis suits to be....except bigger!
What you will see is the enemy trying to bait you into using it due to smaller fire first. I will bet there is a stealth formation that allows multiple use of this war gear or possibly gives the unit infiltrate.
On it's first deplyment it one-shot a titian. Methinks it did live up to it's expectation.
In that one case, it certainly did. Guess' it couldn't keep up though. By the time of the Democles campaign, the Tau had no A-X-1 in service and they were already tinkering with a land-based solution (the RIptide), that's for sure.
Taros, where the AX-1 came into experimental service, occurred in 998.M41
The Damocles Gulf Crusade took place in 742-745.M41.
There was a full 256 year difference between the two events.
This is the other Democles, the new one with Agrellan, Kor'sarro Khan, Shrike, Voltoris, and Shadowsun trying (and failing miserably) to use Mont'ka. It happens in M41.999, roughly a year after Taros.
So. A year after Taros you expect something that was experimental to be in full production and given out in enough numbers to support the Third Sphere Expansion?
Either way? Your expectations are unreasonable and even assuming it's not just a case of "GW doesn't want to showcase it"(because purportedly some of their writers at the time felt that the AX-10 were hamfisted in there to begin with), it likely still would be experimental.
Thanks for the email, with regards to the official rules of the chaos knight and Kytan the experimental rules are for all intense and purpose official, they have been designed and issued by the Forge World studio, the only reason we issue rules with the title of "experimental" is due to it not being published in an imperial armour publication. We are steadily removing this tag from future releases.
The rules for all experimental units should be treated as official until they are removed and published in the related Imperial armour.
Well, all rules are always subject to change. Remember how Tau used to be able to bring missile drones in more than the broadsides? That lasted, what, a day?
I more mean that FW PDFs tend to end up being quite different from their original release, to when they com out i a book. They are almost always OP to differing degrees when they come out, but tend to settel down to good or mediocre when they come out.
Co'tor Shas wrote: So it's basically like I said, practically speaking it's still experimental (i.e. subject to change), it just dosen''t have the tag.
All things are subject to change. GW has put out Codex FAQs in the past to change points, wargear, rules, etc.
Experimental rules, especially ones unlikely to get an Imperial Armor any time soon, are no less "official rules" than the current edition of any Codex. Any rule, be it from FW or GW, can change in 3 years.
Co'tor Shas wrote: So it's basically like I said, practically speaking it's still experimental (i.e. subject to change), it just dosen''t have the tag.
All things are subject to change. GW has put out Codex FAQs in the past to change points, wargear, rules, etc.
Experimental rules, especially ones unlikely to get an Imperial Armor any time soon, are no less "official rules" than the current edition of any Codex. Any rule, be it from FW or GW, can change in 3 years.
See my previous post. It took FW what, a couple of months, to nerf the r'varna? And it's probably going to receive a points increase in the IA. FW tend to be pretty good about that. Especially with tau. I don't think we've ever had an AI thing that's been more than decently strong. Which is a good thing, IMO, OP is bad.
On it's first deplyment it one-shot a titian. Methinks it did live up to it's expectation.
In that one case, it certainly did. Guess' it couldn't keep up though. By the time of the Democles campaign, the Tau had no A-X-1 in service and they were already tinkering with a land-based solution (the RIptide), that's for sure.
Taros, where the AX-1 came into experimental service, occurred in 998.M41
The Damocles Gulf Crusade took place in 742-745.M41.
There was a full 256 year difference between the two events.
This is the other Democles, the new one with Agrellan, Kor'sarro Khan, Shrike, Voltoris, and Shadowsun trying (and failing miserably) to use Mont'ka. It happens in M41.999, roughly a year after Taros.
So. A year after Taros you expect something that was experimental to be in full production and given out in enough numbers to support the Third Sphere Expansion?
This happened with the Riptide (an admittedly successful design), so yeah, I would expect exactly that.
On it's first deplyment it one-shot a titian. Methinks it did live up to it's expectation.
In that one case, it certainly did. Guess' it couldn't keep up though. By the time of the Democles campaign, the Tau had no A-X-1 in service and they were already tinkering with a land-based solution (the RIptide), that's for sure.
Taros, where the AX-1 came into experimental service, occurred in 998.M41
The Damocles Gulf Crusade took place in 742-745.M41.
There was a full 256 year difference between the two events.
This is the other Democles, the new one with Agrellan, Kor'sarro Khan, Shrike, Voltoris, and Shadowsun trying (and failing miserably) to use Mont'ka. It happens in M41.999, roughly a year after Taros.
So. A year after Taros you expect something that was experimental to be in full production and given out in enough numbers to support the Third Sphere Expansion?
This happened with the Riptide (an admittedly successful design), so yeah, I would expect exactly that.
Tau Empire p45 wrote:
Production of the Riptide has proven slow--the materials for the dense nanocrystaline alloy armour are difficult to obtain and the sheer volume required ensures that the XV104 is a rare commodity
So...where does it say that this thing was mass produced in large numbers? The fluff on the opposing page makes it clear that 20 Hunter Cadres were present in one of the battles you mentioned(Agrellan, which was the first time the Riptide was in combat), with each Cadre being given a single Riptide suit.
I mean I get that yeah, from a fluff standpoint the Tigershark might have gone into full scale production...or it might not have since it was such a spectacularly specialized piece of kit.
The tiger shark does have a definite advantage for production, because it was already being mass produced, as was the heavy rail gun, they just retrofitted them for the AX-1-0.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tiger shark does have a definite advantage for production, because it was already being mass produced, as was the heavy rail gun, they just retrofitted them for the AX-1-0.
Retrofitting a weapon that is made for the Manta for something the size of the Tiger Shark could be part of the issue, or the "overly specialized" thing, or any number of possibilities.
The Tau are practical. I can't see them having huge numbers of AX-1-0 variants floating around "just in case", but maybe a trio of them assigned to every Tiger Shark squadron?
It's amazing how nobody has ever seen a scanner apparently.
Or they just want to use what is already convientently in their pocket as opposed to lugging around a flatbed scanner the size of an old encyclopedia volume that still needs a computer and internet connection to use. When you're breaking the law, both convienence and concealability are a factor.
I assume the people who post these arent breaking into a store at the dead of night to take pictures of codexes. These are probably people who have them hands on (such as store managers, shippers, employees, ect. It shouldn't be that hard to use a basic piece of office equipment, especially if it;s a store owner.
It's very useful for scanning all sorts of stuff, legal/medical documents, non-digital photos for backup (especially old family ones), drawings for editing electronically, ect. Especially if you have to apply for collage, as they often want scans of certain documents. It's a very useful piece of equipment.
. The third "barrel" is in fact just optics.
