I think setting up 12 Kataphron Destroyers in reserve will be preeeetty gud. Their squishiness doesn't matter much if you can guarantee they don't get shot before they shoot. It's the same effect as Chaos Obliterators, essentially.
One unit in deep strike propably else gonna be game breaking. So not so extreme. But a good option tactical at last.
They havent answered yet if more thn one can be used. And we dont know the lucius warlord trait. Cant have a detachment only for lucius unless we talking more lost cps. Aux
If in elimination gem we can take gaia/lucius destroyers while retain my mars Robots its extreme.
Good transport issues solved. Great really great. Now all remains is the serious problem with cost to make enough cps. Lets see how will eventually fix this
Kataphrons Robots tpd in lucius dogma?? Or close ot that 3+ with reroll 1s seems so far the other no mars choise for you wanted not have Cawl. Or maybe use cawl for assault with no robots mighg become a moving blob of Cawl and lots of infantry various elites troops etc. Double canticles for mars seems like you could potentially make an assaulting Cawl force any thoughts??
Kataphrons Robots tpd in lucius dogma?? Or close ot that 3+ with reroll 1s seems so far the other no mars choise for you wanted not have Cawl. Or maybe use cawl for assault with no robots mighg become a moving blob of Cawl and lots of infantry various elites troops etc. Double canticles for mars seems like you could potentially make an assaulting Cawl force any thoughts??
Do you mean the Elimination volley stratagem? cause Lucius dogma is ignoring -1ap.
Cawl + Robots + Neutronagers is simple stuff. Good shooting core. Datasmith and Enginseer sit with them repairing. Infiltrators and Corpuscarii deep strike. Dragoons will screen with the theoretical -2 to-hit (I doubt this will be a thing, but it would be amazing if it were true!).
6 CP total - 5 after the Deep Strike. 2 CP for sure will go to Wrath, so really 3 CP to play with.
Curious to see how the other FW shake out. Two left right? Agripinaa and Ryza?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
takonite wrote: All they need to do now is make the tech priest models not garbage
The current GW clampack one is really nice. The FW Macrotek and Titan Tech Priest are also gorgeous options.
I reckon 9 CPs will be the minimum we need to make a rather drop heavy list work. I think 2 - 3 units should be in DS reserve at least. good thing is that this tactic is extremely flexible. Which is what we needed. Even Kataphrons will get more interesting with this since the at least get to shoot once. yeah
Yes ellimination gem. If possible to take different forge for destroyers and different for robots could be an option.
Lucius is a tax till ofc we see maybe a warlord trait. So a vanguard seems possible.
Still we need 4 rounds * 2 cps and some bad rolls so no list below 10 will have otpions in my eyes. The whole point in these forge worlds was to pick at least a battalion or a brigade.
Not to mention most local tourneys will have detachment restrictions. So if we are looking for 2-3 average detachments then we gotta find a big one and soon.
Iago40k wrote: I reckon 9 CPs will be the minimum we need to make a rather drop heavy list work. I think 2 - 3 units should be in DS reserve at least. good thing is that this tactic is extremely flexible. Which is what we needed. Even Kataphrons will get more interesting with this since the at least get to shoot once. yeah
Good luck getting 9CP without running a load of extra baggage units. I basically just looked for the core stuff I knew was proven and broke it into the "ideal" FW traits. I think we can live with 6CP, because often I doubt we get much choice otherwise - especially if we are trying to use more than 2 Forge Worlds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
takonite wrote: My bad, I meant Electro-Priests haha
Tech-Priest is fine
I rather like the Corupscarii. They look absurd! The Fulgurites... eh. I didn't like them until I painted my own and they aren't so bad. Wish they had more head variations and more poses though.
Iago40k wrote: I reckon 9 CPs will be the minimum we need to make a rather drop heavy list work. I think 2 - 3 units should be in DS reserve at least. good thing is that this tactic is extremely flexible. Which is what we needed. Even Kataphrons will get more interesting with this since the at least get to shoot once. yeah
Good luck getting 9CP without running a load of extra baggage units. I basically just looked for the core stuff I knew was proven and broke it into the "ideal" FW traits. I think we can live with 6CP, because often I doubt we get much choice otherwise - especially if we are trying to use more than 2 Forge Worlds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
takonite wrote: My bad, I meant Electro-Priests haha
Tech-Priest is fine
I rather like the Corupscarii. They look absurd! The Fulgurites... eh. I didn't like them until I painted my own and they aren't so bad. Wish they had more head variations and more poses though.
I have a feeling that some armies are meant to have more CPs than others, and they have built it around that. I would not doubt that armies with less access to CPs with have better stratagems compared to Guard who have too many CPs. AdMech aren't exactly know for their flexibility.....
rvd1ofakind wrote: The list look really good @em_en_oh_pee
See how many possibilities this stratagem opens for us? IT'S AMAZEBALLS
For people who want to run Lucius, that is. Im not going to bandwagon onto Lucius like you see with the other factions (Alpha Legion, Ive always played alpha legion, please ignore all my Word Bearer paint, they're in disguise!) just to get a deepstriking stratagem.
I have a feeling that some armies are meant to have more CPs than others, and they have built it around that. I would not doubt that armies with less access to CPs with have better stratagems compared to Guard who have too many CPs. AdMech aren't exactly know for their flexibility.....
I mean, Imperium has the easiest access to CPs of anyone, and that should absolutely be taken into account when coming up with AdMech stratagems -- it seems like it'd be a huge mistake to balance stratagems around pure armies when the rules strongly incentivize you to take soup lists. Who knows whether this is intentional, but you'll note that Grey Knights, who have an incredibly hard time getting CP by themselves, don't seem to have gotten particularly powerful stratagems. Compared to Space Marines, they have a cheaper Only In Death Does Duty End, but on the other hand their version can't be used on a Primarch. They have a couple clones. Probably their most notable ones are still pretty expensive -- Heed the Prognosticars, Psychic Onslaught, and Psychic Ammunition are all 2 CP, when you'd probably want to price these at 1 CP if you were assuming a pure GK army.
It's not like we have a whole lot to go on, but it kind of looks like Chaos may have better stratagems, which perhaps makes sense since they have a slightly harder time getting CP than the Imperium. The Imperium really has nothing that compares to Endless Cacophony (Slaanesh infantry shoots twice), and Veterans of the Long War does for every unit what Masterful Marksmanship does for just Sternguard. Deathguard have the simply vicious guaranteed explosion stratagem and a really solid one that gives a regular unit the character rule for a turn.
rvd1ofakind wrote: The list look really good @em_en_oh_pee
See how many possibilities this stratagem opens for us? IT'S AMAZEBALLS
For people who want to run Lucius, that is. Im not going to bandwagon onto Lucius like you see with the other factions (Alpha Legion, Ive always played alpha legion, please ignore all my Word Bearer paint, they're in disguise!) just to get a deepstriking stratagem.
My whole army is painted like Metalica. Not going to let that stop me from taking good rules, especially when my own FW got the shaft.
Still v v expensive. Detachment for surviving detachmemt for mars for deep strike and with bad hq not so good troops. Seems we are not moving up the tiers. Seems like good changes and we might be winning some games till the rest get relics and codex. But still v expensive options as i see it. Dont know we ll see.
So far to be able to have 400 points as i used imperium. With deep strike wounds options i need Mars Gaia lucius. Already and debtable if it will be good since again we gotta pay taxxxxxx for troops for hq for most.
We need more informtions on the codex we really need a lot more.
They seem to know where is our problems and they seem willing to get on to it. We gotta see still not super changes. Other armies got those by default. Maybe they re trying to give ad mech its old flavor back ith few troops but various options . The game system of cp sthough is an issue. They could give 2-3 cp s for taking a lucius tpd. Or just flat +2 if you got only ad mech units like canticles. Who knows. Wrath 2 cp s interupt melee 2 1cp per deep strike. Not good for add mech so far...
Can I pose a question that is completely outside of current exciting previews? Did someone actually tried screening Kastelans with melee versions of Kastelans? They have everything they need - big bases, large models, 2+ 4++ in aegis mode. Is there a reason why taking 2 units of 2 and leaving them in aegis mode wouldn't be worthwhile?
Lucius Brigade is going to be serious business. Big stacks of full upgrades Vanguard and Ranger blobs are going to be a real thing. You won't have Cawls reroll 1s and 2s to hits, but Techpriests are halfway there with reroll 1s. Phosphorbots and Kataphrons will be much less efficient in Lucius since you can't hump Cawl, but deepstriking 6 10man 3special weapon skitarii squads is going to be a real thing. Not to mention the forgeworld secutarii rules are coming soon so those elite slots are going to get even sweeter to deepstrike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Melee Kastelans are terrible for many reasons. First, they need to be in their double attack mode to be even modestly viable for their points. Second, they only have 3 attacks base and deal 3 damage an attack, so they suffer terribly against numerous/elite 1-2 wound models with strong weapons. Third, they hit on a 4+ in combat and you have no good way to increase that. Fourth, their flamer is not assault, so you can't advance and use it, and the flamer becomes 21 deadweight points once you get into double melee mode. Fifth, they have no invul save in combat. Sixth, for literally no reason at all they cost more points than phosphorbots, which are the best point for point shooters in the index.
Melee Robots i used extensively. Its a feared unit helped me a lot in my games. I pressed them forward always but eventually 122 points for 4+ on melee with 3 attacks seems alone in front. Need some help. Drop cost. Be able to change protocols fast. Or have a reroll on melee hits. Maybe a melee hq. Their heavy flamers are a force for charging blops.
244 points are a big deal. Same cost for a vanguard group with power qxes and shields+ liutenant (iron chapter) fall back and charge reroll wounds. Etc. There are much options to take for that kind of points and you d propably need 4 and then we talking knight points. So ...
So they don't get shot before they shoot. And remember they don't get -1 to shoot their heavy weapons after moving. Don't overlook this; very viable tactic against opponents who rely upon their alpha strike. And it's optional so the same roster has flexibility against other opponents.
Lucius is gonna be a thing. Corpuscarii with TPD's will be solid. Lucius vanguard and Mars spearhead seems like a pretty strong core. Battalion of cheap stuff to add CP's I guess would be the other obvious thing.
Not a ton of CP's, but has anti-psyker, anti-air, some disruption models, good shooting and decent board control. It's lacking some screening, assasins and corpuscarii can do that in a pinch.
linds14sr20det wrote: Lucius is gonna be a thing. Corpuscarii with TPD's will be solid. Lucius vanguard and Mars spearhead seems like a pretty strong core. Battalion of cheap stuff to add CP's I guess would be the other obvious thing.
Not a ton of CP's, but has anti-psyker, anti-air, some disruption models, good shooting and decent board control. It's lacking some screening, assasins and corpuscarii can do that in a pinch.
Lack of Neutronagers is egregious! Also, why 2x2 robots? You can only Wrath once per phase, so you want to make it count. 1x6 means I have six Robots double-tapping with 6's adding mortal wounds. Since you can split fire nowadays, why not? Just need to screen them carefully.
So they don't get shot before they shoot. And remember they don't get -1 to shoot their heavy weapons after moving. Don't overlook this; very viable tactic against opponents who rely upon their alpha strike. And it's optional so the same roster has flexibility against other opponents.
1CP & 219pt investment in 3d6 Plasma shots is not exactly getting me excited, deep striking or not.
Don't be an ass. You didn't state which and Grav is universally considered crap in this edition, while plasma is solid.
And even still, it is more expensive for Grav and 15 S5 -3 1dmg shots don't get me excited either. The Heavy Phospher has me spoiled. Plus, Kataphrons aren't particularly durable. T5 3W 4+ save? That isn't going to hold up if it deep strikes in.
I would rather take Corpuscarii as suicide squad to strip units down with volume of fire.
Might be when combined with Shroudpsalm. But +1 vs AP1 feels weak. Might be wrong, but I either encountered ap0 or ap2+. I don't remember much of heavy bolters being shoot against me.
Spera wrote: Might be when combined with Shroudpsalm. But +1 vs AP1 feels weak. Might be wrong, but I either encountered ap0 or ap2+. I don't remember much of heavy bolters being shoot against me.
Lots and lots of guns are AP -1, so it does help - just not a lot.
With the opportunity to deep strike, I think kataphrons will make a slight comeback. Not overall in big tourney lists but overall in peoples armies I think they will do better being able to start off the board and get a round of shooting in before taking damage. Pair that with the stratagem to help keep them from dying on a roll of a 1 to plasma, it makes that pretty nasty to vehicles.
I have had luck with kataphrons doing damage to vehicles overcharging but taking casualties to 's early on had cost me a game for sure. Having Cawl or a TPD nearby for rerolls could help big time.
I was pretty against balistarii and dragoons before because I don't like their models but I think having the lascannons is clutch against armor. I only have 1 neutronager so I think 2 balistarii with lascannons can lay down some pain while still being mobile enough to redeploy in my zone if needed.
I see myself running 2 different forge worlds in my army, utilizing mars for sure with cawl and most like lucius to get the kataphrons up close. Opinions on grav versus plasma? (I know they're too many points right now, but bear with me)
Deep striking Kataphrons would be a HUGE deal. They would easily be the longest range deep strike unit in the game. That being said, if we're doing the Raven Guard deep strike, then what we're doing is not normal deep strike per se. It occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. So whatever comes in gets to move.
Why wouldn't Knights get the Forge World keyword? All of the problematic rules we're talking have infantry or another keyword involved. Having that keyword would be necessary to get get reroll buffs and repairs too. You might as well have Imperial Knights if you lack Forge World.
Suzuteo wrote: Deep striking Kataphrons would be a HUGE deal. They would easily be the longest range deep strike unit in the game. That being said, if we're doing the Raven Guard deep strike, then what we're doing is not normal deep strike per se. It occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. So whatever comes in gets to move.
Why wouldn't Knights get the Forge World keyword? All of the problematic rules we're talking have infantry or another keyword involved. Having that keyword would be necessary to get get reroll buffs and repairs too. You might as well have Imperial Knights if you lack Forge World.
Doesn't make Kataphrons less crappy though, sadly. Unless the prices come down on them, they are still junk.
And for balance? I will be shocked if they get FW keywords.
Suzuteo wrote: Deep striking Kataphrons would be a HUGE deal. They would easily be the longest range deep strike unit in the game. That being said, if we're doing the Raven Guard deep strike, then what we're doing is not normal deep strike per se. It occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. So whatever comes in gets to move.
Why wouldn't Knights get the Forge World keyword? All of the problematic rules we're talking have infantry or another keyword involved. Having that keyword would be necessary to get get reroll buffs and repairs too. You might as well have Imperial Knights if you lack Forge World.
It's not the Raven Guard deep strike. It's the teleport strike that Terminators get. You come in at the end of the movement phase.
This is honestly better than the Raven Guard/Alpha Legion rule for the purposes of AdMech units because you're not trying to get into melee combat, you're just keeping units off the board so they don't get shot at until you're ready for it.
I'd say Deepstriking in general falls under a couple different uses
* deploying something close to your opponent for an immediate alphastrike
* deploying something in the middle of the board/around an objective as an obstacle to the enemy's movement
* deploying something a little bit later in the rounds to flank or run into the backline of your opponent
I could see different units being better at those different uses
Command plasma squads are so good because they get rapid fire still at 9-12". Corpusarcii or whatever that is have 12" range so they would work but you would not get a TPD or other reroll unit with them and the mortal wounds extra stratagem possibly
Fulgurites are great if they get into combat but now you are 9" away and have to make a charge
Since the cost is for a UNIT a larger unit seems to make the most sense.
The second role might be good with dragoons, incense cloud+ the ap-1 bonus
Another thing that's really amazing about this is that since it works on any Lucius unit you can pick and choose which units you want to protect in the teleportarium on a game-by-game basis. If Magnus is on the other side of the board you can stick your Icarus Array Onager in there and ensure it can't be touched before it gets a round of shooting on Magnus.
Arachnofiend wrote: Another thing that's really amazing about this is that since it works on any Lucius unit you can pick and choose which units you want to protect in the teleportarium on a game-by-game basis. If Magnus is on the other side of the board you can stick your Icarus Array Onager in there and ensure it can't be touched before it gets a round of shooting on Magnus.
I wouldn't sweat Magnus anymore. A single round from Cawl with six Dakkastelans under Wrath of Mars will end him in one turn!
Arachnofiend wrote: Another thing that's really amazing about this is that since it works on any Lucius unit you can pick and choose which units you want to protect in the teleportarium on a game-by-game basis. If Magnus is on the other side of the board you can stick your Icarus Array Onager in there and ensure it can't be touched before it gets a round of shooting on Magnus.
I wouldn't sweat Magnus anymore. A single round from Cawl with six Dakkastelans under Wrath of Mars will end him in one turn!
My Omnisayah, we have better markerlights than Tau we just point our CP and thing is supper dead
Arachnofiend wrote: Another thing that's really amazing about this is that since it works on any Lucius unit you can pick and choose which units you want to protect in the teleportarium on a game-by-game basis. If Magnus is on the other side of the board you can stick your Icarus Array Onager in there and ensure it can't be touched before it gets a round of shooting on Magnus.
I wouldn't sweat Magnus anymore. A single round from Cawl with six Dakkastelans under Wrath of Mars will end him in one turn!
My Omnisayah, we have better markerlights than Tau we just point our CP and thing is supper dead
More like Omnisupersaiyen, amirite?! GET IT?! Because our damage output with Wrath of Mars is OVER 9,000!!!! ...... ok, I'll stop.
But for real, that is like 17ish mortal wounds before re-rolls. When you absolutely need a Daemon Primarch dead, I think we might do it best!
Jeez, with re-rolls from Cawl, we do almost 26 mortal wounds (unless my math is just way off). That is a dead KNIGHT in one round. Before normal damage goes through. We can one-round a Cerastus and almost kill an Acastus that way.
Some nice options some better some worse still no way to increase cp s or take more dogmas. Still many units extremely high in points. We gotta pay 200 points for a breacher unit. With hq tax and stratgem for deep strike in an obj.
Or the example of 20 electro priest cost around 300. And they wont do a knight bane blade etc job. Vs troops we had infiltrators already overcosted in around 100.
Good options nice bla bla still no combination. I dont know once more i see detachment expnsive lots of them 3 so far .
Mars is a must. Then i want gaia for protecting my line and important units and warlord maybe thats a battalion. And lucius for playing the map like the rest of the kids.
+ relics + wasted points hq troops and tax for deep strike detach.
400 points ig still better and with no codex yet. And a simple 3 onager 1*4-6 robots and gg
I'm really liking Lucius - it opens up so much flexibility.
Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.
Not so sure about becoming a mass teleport army. Again, Cawl and Mars is still better for most shooting. However, I can see them complementing the artillery by forcing the enemy to disperse.
For example, use a Patrol Detachment like this (I assume every unit in a detachment must be Lucius):
Deploy all your guys on one side of the table, then drop these guys in farrrr out of the way, 24" from the enemy, and shoot the living daylights out of their backline.
If you want, you can also add a Data-smith and 4x Kastelan unit--or no Data-smith at all.
Anyhow, this all tells me that if Mechanicum Knights get neither <Forge World> nor double Avenger, I will be shelving mine.
They will let us heal them one wound but wont be fair to give them forge world key. Patience but so far knights disappoint. No neutron no heal no cantiles nothing. Still you never know ...
Got mine polished and selved when 8th hit still w8ing
So I was literally writing up a 5000 word heavy review of Admech currently to post here and on a couple other forums as well as give 1d4chan my input. As I have played about 45 games of Admech thus far (pure) and about twice that much in 8th overall.
However, all of it is almost moot with these new updates. So I'll give an abridged version as to not have fully wasted my time and maybe this info will help some of you. This info is also for Pure Admech, not soup. And by no means is perfect. I have played alot of 8th and alot of Admech, but I am by no means perfect and my views are subject to local META; which is Chaos, Necrons, 1ksons, Space Marines, Orks and Eldar.
----HQs----
TPD. Overall, as an individual not bad, not great. As a synergy character (by comparision to other armies he is crap) but his relative hardyness and decent melee/shooting makes him okay. If he was a flat 100pts. I'd say he'd be in the sweet spot.
Cawl: exactly what he is. Great. If you have the points, no reason not too. Just be careful about hard hitting stuff. He can shrug off small arms better than most, but like most things, powerfists or Laz cannons will ruin his day.
--**NEW**--
Tech Priest- First impressions (Have not used him as an HQ yet, just found out about this yesterday). I fear he will not get a points reduction simply due to being moved to an HQ slot. However, if he turns out to get a points reduction, and in my humble opinion he should be exactly 40pts and kept as is. With one exception, he should be able to repair all Admech units, not just vehicles, like the Dominus. As many people have figured out, if this HQ is 40pts, or even 50 pts, the entire META of the army will radically change. I am already planning on running two or three forge worlds with a TPD and 1-2 tech priests to split my army up into multiple detachments and have them specialize into roles.
---Troops---
Breacahers:
So close yet so far from being an awesome unit. Cover/canticles makes these guys are to move, but will fall victim to Lazcannon/other heavy hitters making this unit only viable if there is target saturation avaiable. Otherwise, focus fire and heavy weapons will turn this overpriced unit into robot parts. If they knocked these guys down to 150 for Haywire/claw. I'd take 3 squads. Make the Torsion cannons/claw 175 and I might cry from joy, if they made the torsion 20pts and the arc free. I would be even so bold to make their hydralic claw cost the same as the arc. Why? Its objectivly worse, but its high risk and low reward can be offset by its fluff. The Hydralic claw needs AP-2 and it can compete with the arc, if it were free/same cost. As is, I can never recommend it, -1 to hit making its pilthy 2 attacks hit on 5s on such an expensive unit really makes me wonder if it was a typo uncaught. Unless you know you are going to be attacking buildings ignore this weapon. If the codex adjusts it, I'll revisit it. Otherwise, stay away.
--Destroyers---
Expensive, somewhat fragile unit, cover is a MUST on these. These also benefit the most from a TPD, Canticles or Cawl or any other reroll or to hit boon. They are overpriced, but dish out enough firepower to make them worth it, if you place them in a sound tactical manner. Heavy Grav, despite being nerf is still excellent at what it does. Turning all heavy infantry into molten goop. This squad will melt effectively anything that is not a vehical in one volley. Or two if the dice gods are against you. I would love to see a slight price drop in these, just to make them more viable. I'd be happy with the base unit just coming down 5 pts: from 35 to 30 or knocking the Grav cannon to 20-25 instead of 30. Phospher blaster... I don't want to say its crap... So I wont. Take the flamers. Which I think is about right, though my fanboy wants them a solid 10pts not 11.
Plasma: Good. I hardly ever use these though, for two major reasons, I hate the d6 shots; simply too unreliable for such an expensive unit and the Grav is better for my local META. Though Plasma seems to be king this edition, so I will not say anything bad against them. I'd like to see their points cost down to 20, or even 25... But thats me being nit picky. They suffer all the same problems listed above but are just kitted out for different targets. Your mileage may vary.
Cognis Flamers: Good. A bit pricey, but good. They are extra reassurance flame throwers, and as so are good.
Overall, this unit despite its obscene costs (two units of 3 is the costs of an Imperial Knight...) These awesome looking models can actually be viable. Have their Grav target Terminators or power armor or even monstrous creatures and watch it do work.
**NEW** If these units get a points reduction combined with the forgeworld Lucius and canticles. These units may become
some of the hardest hitting and tough aplhastrike or even just teleporting gunplatforms int he game.
Vanguard: become my most common unit, but seriously struggling to keep competitive. Too expensive, both base and weapon upgrades (looking at you plasma calv). They're 4+ save when in cover/canticles makes them not just die to a stiff breeze, but even laz guns will wear these guys down with realtive ease. If GW makes them about 8 pts per model and knocks down the plasma cav to 10-12 pts, these guys will suddenly be really good. Especially with these new forge world traits. That 6+++ FNP thingyish, would do these models wonders. In a perfect forge world, the Aphas would have two wounds.
That being said, these guys throw out a crapton of shots. Have excellent weapon options Arc Rife is wholly underused. For 4pts this is an auto include unless you explicitly want that plasma. A 10 man squad of these mooks, with 3 arc rifles and an omispex or data-tether (depends on their job), are a fansatic little objective holder or harassing unit and a decent screen (if only they were cheaper!!).
Aplha: Kit him out for role.
Maul: Great overall weapon, no weakness only good.
Goad: High strength, No AP. Situational, take this if you know you'll be fighint not space marines or equivelent.
Arc Pistol: Always. Unless you have the Alpha keep his carbine.
Arc Rifle: Arguably best weapon in the faction due to its super duper low points. Take them, S6 AP-1 Rapid Fire 1. Why the heck not!?!?
Plasma: Good... But unintuitive. You want these models to run, says so in the codex, but running and shooting this weapon on overcharge is a big no no. This weapon needs a buff or point reduction. Give it 3 shots and keep the point cost or drop the points. As of right now, its not bad, but its arguably the least point efficient plasma gun in the game currently. Which is super odd, considering this is the mechanicus...
Sniper: Don't.
Despite what many people say, these guys often perform better in groups of 10.
Rangers, outside of being a extra wounds for snipers are possibly the worst unit in the codex. Yes, even worse than the combat servitors. In and of themselves they are not bad but simply not worth their points. As above, 8pts ideally with some sort of buff; like all to wound rolls of 6 are AP-2 would go along way to making these guys compete with Vanguard, who are the same cost, have some defensive uses (rad armor) and nearly triple the firepower.
Alpha: Keep stock rife.
Snipers: Use this unit as extra wounds for said snipers. Just a minor add tid bit. A 10 man unit with 3 snipers, can either do wonders or will attract far too much attention. I've seen it do both.
Arc Rifles: Actually has pretty good snyergy here, though I still recommend these with Vanguard over Rangers, but I think this may be the best weapon for this unit.
Plasma: situational, if you know you'll be close within first or second turn, this may not be a bad choice. Though I'd recommend Arc rifles over these.
Rangers, in my opinion, have taken the worst brunt in the codex out of our whole line. They went from an excellent troop choice to sniper bodies. They can still perform however, rerolls of 1 to hit and a soft rend make them annoying to your opponents due to their long range. Ideally, two five man squads with a sniper or two plopped into a good tactical position can really help your army. A 10 man squad with 3 arc rifles in center field or camping on an objective can also be very useful. But that is about all they can do well, other units will fill any other rolls they might take better.
---Elites---
DiscoSticks: Most improved. Arugably one of the best counter charge units in the game currently. Many people forget they have a 5+++ which makes them almost as hardy as Nurgle deamons. When position cleverly, they will completly deter your opponents from would be great charge or deepstrike. Or not as good but still tactically useful, your opponents will be sure to focus fire these guys to death to allow them to deepstrike or charge. I will skip out on in detail explaining why they are so good, but their statline alone should give you all the reasons you need. Point wise, I think they are spot on. Any cheaper and they'd be broken. Any more expensive and I'm not sure if I'd take more than one squad.
Always take at least 10. 5 would be good, but they will be shot.
Jazz Hands: Great. Thought Vanguard are too squish and don't like their stregth 3? Well these are for you. Have all the same rules and boons as Disco sticks but can drown ANY unit in firepower. Give them a rerolls to hit with Cawl and laugh as you dish out 50 hits from a 10 man squad. TPD and/or canticles help these mooks out nicely. Their short range is their only weak point. Position them to either defend a unit/area or go super aggresive with them and give your enemy target saturation to avoid them being focus fired on.
Point wise, again, I think they are perfect. Always take at least 10, more may be better but situational and will draw more fire if you take more than 10.
These guys move well with Vanguard running up the field.
Servitors: Dont. They could have been great. Even at 8pts a model (servo arm) these things could have been useful. But at 12 pts... Just put the points elsewhere. Hopfully the codex will do 1 of two things. 1: Make them 8 pts with servo arm, then they could be useful. 2: change the equipment they can take and its restrictions.
**NEW** with teleportation, these mooks with Multimeltas plus a techpriest in conjunction with a point reduction can finally give us that deep strike melta attack we've been needing that every other army has.
Datasmith: Exactly what he is. Okay at combat but just a powerful baby sitter for your robots. I'd like to see him maybe just 10 points cheaper and be able to work with servitors and I'd think he could be really useful. Even more so, if he could repair other units. I'd happily keep his point costs the same if he could repair any admech units.
Infiltrators: Good. Used to be our only deepstrike, still good. Almost spot on in points. I'd prefer a soft point reduction or a slight bump in survivability. A 5++ would go a long way for these guys (what they used to have). Both options are good, simply kit them out for whatever task you want to them to handle.
Goads: good for light armored but still competent at exploding hits and overwhelming high armor.
Swords: Powerswords. Yes please.
Both variants do very well with canticles,primarily due to their all around good nature, their high output of attacks both melee and range allow for lots of dice and potential damage. +1 Strength makes you wound T3 models on 2s with goads and makes your power swords wound marines on 3s. Rerolls of 1 to range/melee just good to have.
These are a must have strategically, however with new codex and teleportation, they may lose their most important feature: deepstrike. I mean, you take them for deepstrike, if you have other options, you may not want to take these anymore. Overall, I will contradict myself here a bit. They are worth taking. If you can get the charge off or need something to take a backfield objective, they are decent glass cannons and are fairly quick and can handle most enemy types that are MC or Vehicles.
Ruststalkers: Don't. I have tried. I really have, have used both variants about a dozen times and only twice have they ever done anything useful. You will amost always be better served by infiltrators. The transonic razor and blade are sadly just garbage. The chordclaw is really the only thing that ever did anything when I used them. That being said, you're better off taking Discosticks for mortal wounds and counter charging and your better off with infiltrators at regualr damage dealing and mobility. This is, in my opinion, the most confusing and pointless unit in the codex. Mind you I say pointless, not bad. Just take something else. Hopefully the Codex will change the Transonic blades as currently they are the worst weapon in the codex.
The damn things don't even have an AP of 1!!!
I am super bitter about them because I love their models. I have 20 of them... 10 of each. Got them in 7th and am just sad to see how poor they have become...
---Fast Attack:---
I have nothing of importance to add here. I never use the walkers. I only own 1 of them, and it gets blown up first turn every time. I suspect 2 or 3 of them would fair better. The reason I do not have any is fiscal more than anything else.
--Heavy Support--
Dunecrawler: Excellent unit. Appropriatly costed. Hard hitting and can take ah it. An improved or comperable Leman Russ albeit not as fast.
All weapons on this thing are pretty worthwhile except the phosher blaster. The platform is too costly to justify that weapon being on it. If it were free or only like 5pts for the Dunecrawler, I'd change my mind. The stars here though Nuetraon Laser and Icarus array. Both excellent and both good at really everything. This thing is an embarresment of riches. I recommend taking 3 of any varation of your choice. The Cognis heavy stubbor is over costed though, but it is nice to have 3-6 extra shots comining off the thing.
Robits: Good. But expensive. Overall a strong unit in both melee and range based on what you kit it out with. Obviously range is its most popular form, but they also do very well in melee. Their fists are not to be ignored.
Ageis: My personal favorite mode. 2+/4++ and the retaliation of 5++. This mode may lack the Dakka or the Choppa of the other two, but my opponets best weapons to kill these things (Lazcannons) don't bother shooting them if I have this up. Meaning, they can just do whatever they want with near impunity. Keep a datamsith nearby though, you will probably want to change these things protocal at some point. Also, few things will annoy your opponent more than seeing on of these jerkwagons recover d3 wounds.
There ya go. My last several month of 40 some games as Admech. This was much longer originally and in a proper essay format for ease of reading, but with the new info of the codex out, I shortened it up. Everything I've said is now subject to change.
How is it unfair? I can teleport 6 Kataphrons into my opponent's extreme flank, but not a Knight?
If Mechanicum Knights can take Neutron Lasers and Heavy Stubber, I will be drooling as I magnetize mine. It frees up 23 points for a weapon that is much more consistent for its costs than a Thermal Cannon. I can then use those points to get a Stormspear.
How we will roll canticles with two detachments from different Forge worlds? Would i roll once for each world? Or do I roll only once, and mars double chanting spreads on other worlds?
Edit:
Ok only units with mars dogma gets second canticle. So it seams like we get one for whole army, forge worlds won't matter here.
Spera wrote: How we will roll canticles with two detachments from different Forge worlds? Would i roll once for each world? Or do I roll only once, and mars double chanting spreads on other worlds?
I was originally hopefully they would just have one for the whole army, re-guardless of detachments, but then I realised, you just bring Cawl with Mar and then everything else gets the boons. I assume it will be just like chapter tactics: each detachment is independent. This will probably create some paperwork.
Allowing multiple Forge Worlds in a single army is an aberration in my opinion (just like using multiple SM chapter tactics and such) and I'd be really disappointed if they keep it that way. There's no difference with 7th Edition's way of handling allies where you just take the best units in the best factions to make your own force. A fluff-destructive behaviour.
Also, if 400 pts of Imperium do it better and with more CPs just play Guard then, there's already the dreadful Imperium Soup™ allowing you to murder the fluff as much as you like, why stop at this and not take multiple Forge Worlds fighting in the same battle alongside Celestine and Guilliman with his royal escort of Razorbacks ?
Really don't understand how people love the competitive aspect that much that they forget there's a world of lore behind it that most likely got their interest in the first place when they discovered the game. Or do they just tell themselves "oh that's a nice way to pwn people and feel good" ?
Either way, the Lucius trait is interesting but somewhat oddly specific, don't remember much weapons having AP-1 but it's better than nothing after all. The deep-strike stratagem is awesome though.
Of course Mars is still better, they wouldn't want their shiny pricey models to not sell very well after all ? Kastelan Robots, Onagers and Cawl are the most expensive models in the AdMech range and so are boosted to eleven. Disgusted they encourage the "camp here" playstyle with Cawl never moving with his Robots and Onagers, probably helped by some good Imperial allies (altough you're probably not playing AdMech if you're just playing 3 units in the backfield while the rest does the job of capping and making it an interesting game for your opponent).
Aaranis wrote: Allowing multiple Forge Worlds in a single army is an aberration in my opinion (just like using multiple SM chapter tactics and such) and I'd be really disappointed if they keep it that way. There's no difference with 7th Edition's way of handling allies where you just take the best units in the best factions to make your own force. A fluff-destructive behaviour.
Also, if 400 pts of Imperium do it better and with more CPs just play Guard then, there's already the dreadful Imperium Soup™ allowing you to murder the fluff as much as you like, why stop at this and not take multiple Forge Worlds fighting in the same battle alongside Celestine and Guilliman with his royal escort of Razorbacks ?
Really don't understand how people love the competitive aspect that much that they forget there's a world of lore behind it that most likely got their interest in the first place when they discovered the game. Or do they just tell themselves "oh that's a nice way to pwn people and feel good" ?
Either way, the Lucius trait is interesting but somewhat oddly specific, don't remember much weapons having AP-1 but it's better than nothing after all. The deep-strike stratagem is awesome though.
Of course Mars is still better, they wouldn't want their shiny pricey models to not sell very well after all ? Kastelan Robots, Onagers and Cawl are the most expensive models in the AdMech range and so are boosted to eleven. Disgusted they encourage the "camp here" playstyle with Cawl never moving with his Robots and Onagers, probably helped by some good Imperial allies (altough you're probably not playing AdMech if you're just playing 3 units in the backfield while the rest does the job of capping and making it an interesting game for your opponent).
I really don't think it's fair to be upset that people play the way that the game seems to want them to play. That's the point of the rules! It's not like people are taking advantage of some loophole by mixing and matching factions across detachments. That's why we have a detachment system -- that's why you get traits just by having a pure detachment rather than a pure army. GW is saying very clearly that you should be putting together a unified Imperium army which takes advantage of each subfaction's strengths.
There are things that seem probably unintended, like Razorbacks being so good on their own, but it seems to me that GW's position is that, yes, you should be taking Guilliman and Celestine and probably some Guard or AdMech. This is the sort of story they're trying to tell now in the fluff too. They'd probably also like it if you brought Mortarion and Magnus together as well.
To be clear, I agree with you that this is bad and I'd like for it to change (though it's hard to see how that happens now unless they actually go and say something like "now you only get chapter tactics and stratagems for a pure army", which they won't). Though I mostly think this for gameplay-related reasons -- I think you can justify almost anything fluff-wise, whereas all this soup stuff makes for worse actual games.
I'm at work and don't have mu rule book handy but whats to stop me from fielding a single Corpus Priest unit with the Lucius Forgeworld as it's own detachment costing one command point. Then using another point to deep strike it?
Solis Luna Astrum wrote: I'm at work and don't have mu rule book handy but whats to stop me from fielding a single Corpus Priest unit with the Lucius Forgeworld as it's own detachment costing one command point. Then using another point to deep strike it?
The three codices released so far only give you access to the stratagems if you have a detachment from the codex other than an auxiliary support detachment. However, if this one is written similarly, then if you bring a Mars Spearhead you could then bring a Lucius auxiliary support and use its stratagem.
Really don't understand how people love the competitive aspect that much that they forget there's a world of lore behind it that most likely got their interest in the first place when they discovered the game. Or do they just tell themselves "oh that's a nice way to pwn people and feel good" ?
Because there is nothing in the rule book that says everyone has to feel about the game the way you feel about it?
Solis Luna Astrum wrote: I'm at work and don't have mu rule book handy but whats to stop me from fielding a single Corpus Priest unit with the Lucius Forgeworld as it's own detachment costing one command point. Then using another point to deep strike it?
The three codices released so far only give you access to the stratagems if you have a detachment from the codex other than an auxiliary support detachment. However, if this one is written similarly, then if you bring a Mars Spearhead you could then bring a Lucius auxiliary support and use its stratagem.
Thank you, that's the wording I was looking for. Run the priest unit as an auxiliary support detachment.
Tsol wrote: So I was literally writing up a 5000 word heavy review of Admech currently to post here and on a couple other forums as well as give 1d4chan my input. As I have played about 45 games of Admech thus far (pure) and about twice that much in 8th overall.
However, all of it is almost moot with these new updates. So I'll give an abridged version as to not have fully wasted my time and maybe this info will help some of you. This info is also for Pure Admech, not soup. And by no means is perfect. I have played alot of 8th and alot of Admech, but I am by no means perfect and my views are subject to local META; which is Chaos, Necrons, 1ksons, Space Marines, Orks and Eldar.
----HQs----
TPD. Overall, as an individual not bad, not great. As a synergy character (by comparision to other armies he is crap) but his relative hardyness and decent melee/shooting makes him okay. If he was a flat 100pts. I'd say he'd be in the sweet spot.
Cawl: exactly what he is. Great. If you have the points, no reason not too. Just be careful about hard hitting stuff. He can shrug off small arms better than most, but like most things, powerfists or Laz cannons will ruin his day.
--**NEW**--
Tech Priest- First impressions (Have not used him as an HQ yet, just found out about this yesterday). I fear he will not get a points reduction simply due to being moved to an HQ slot. However, if he turns out to get a points reduction, and in my humble opinion he should be exactly 40pts and kept as is. With one exception, he should be able to repair all Admech units, not just vehicles, like the Dominus. As many people have figured out, if this HQ is 40pts, or even 50 pts, the entire META of the army will radically change. I am already planning on running two or three forge worlds with a TPD and 1-2 tech priests to split my army up into multiple detachments and have them specialize into roles.
---Troops---
Breacahers:
So close yet so far from being an awesome unit. Cover/canticles makes these guys are to move, but will fall victim to Lazcannon/other heavy hitters making this unit only viable if there is target saturation avaiable. Otherwise, focus fire and heavy weapons will turn this overpriced unit into robot parts. If they knocked these guys down to 150 for Haywire/claw. I'd take 3 squads. Make the Torsion cannons/claw 175 and I might cry from joy, if they made the torsion 20pts and the arc free. I would be even so bold to make their hydralic claw cost the same as the arc. Why? Its objectivly worse, but its high risk and low reward can be offset by its fluff. The Hydralic claw needs AP-2 and it can compete with the arc, if it were free/same cost. As is, I can never recommend it, -1 to hit making its pilthy 2 attacks hit on 5s on such an expensive unit really makes me wonder if it was a typo uncaught. Unless you know you are going to be attacking buildings ignore this weapon. If the codex adjusts it, I'll revisit it. Otherwise, stay away.
--Destroyers---
Expensive, somewhat fragile unit, cover is a MUST on these. These also benefit the most from a TPD, Canticles or Cawl or any other reroll or to hit boon. They are overpriced, but dish out enough firepower to make them worth it, if you place them in a sound tactical manner. Heavy Grav, despite being nerf is still excellent at what it does. Turning all heavy infantry into molten goop. This squad will melt effectively anything that is not a vehical in one volley. Or two if the dice gods are against you. I would love to see a slight price drop in these, just to make them more viable. I'd be happy with the base unit just coming down 5 pts: from 35 to 30 or knocking the Grav cannon to 20-25 instead of 30. Phospher blaster... I don't want to say its crap... So I wont. Take the flamers. Which I think is about right, though my fanboy wants them a solid 10pts not 11.
Plasma: Good. I hardly ever use these though, for two major reasons, I hate the d6 shots; simply too unreliable for such an expensive unit and the Grav is better for my local META. Though Plasma seems to be king this edition, so I will not say anything bad against them. I'd like to see their points cost down to 20, or even 25... But thats me being nit picky. They suffer all the same problems listed above but are just kitted out for different targets. Your mileage may vary.
Cognis Flamers: Good. A bit pricey, but good. They are extra reassurance flame throwers, and as so are good.
Overall, this unit despite its obscene costs (two units of 3 is the costs of an Imperial Knight...) These awesome looking models can actually be viable. Have their Grav target Terminators or power armor or even monstrous creatures and watch it do work.
**NEW** If these units get a points reduction combined with the forgeworld Lucius and canticles. These units may become
some of the hardest hitting and tough aplhastrike or even just teleporting gunplatforms int he game.
Vanguard: become my most common unit, but seriously struggling to keep competitive. Too expensive, both base and weapon upgrades (looking at you plasma calv). They're 4+ save when in cover/canticles makes them not just die to a stiff breeze, but even laz guns will wear these guys down with realtive ease. If GW makes them about 8 pts per model and knocks down the plasma cav to 10-12 pts, these guys will suddenly be really good. Especially with these new forge world traits. That 6+++ FNP thingyish, would do these models wonders. In a perfect forge world, the Aphas would have two wounds.
That being said, these guys throw out a crapton of shots. Have excellent weapon options Arc Rife is wholly underused. For 4pts this is an auto include unless you explicitly want that plasma. A 10 man squad of these mooks, with 3 arc rifles and an omispex or data-tether (depends on their job), are a fansatic little objective holder or harassing unit and a decent screen (if only they were cheaper!!).
Aplha: Kit him out for role.
Maul: Great overall weapon, no weakness only good.
Goad: High strength, No AP. Situational, take this if you know you'll be fighint not space marines or equivelent.
Arc Pistol: Always. Unless you have the Alpha keep his carbine.
Arc Rifle: Arguably best weapon in the faction due to its super duper low points. Take them, S6 AP-1 Rapid Fire 1. Why the heck not!?!?
Plasma: Good... But unintuitive. You want these models to run, says so in the codex, but running and shooting this weapon on overcharge is a big no no. This weapon needs a buff or point reduction. Give it 3 shots and keep the point cost or drop the points. As of right now, its not bad, but its arguably the least point efficient plasma gun in the game currently. Which is super odd, considering this is the mechanicus...
Sniper: Don't.
Despite what many people say, these guys often perform better in groups of 10.
Rangers, outside of being a extra wounds for snipers are possibly the worst unit in the codex. Yes, even worse than the combat servitors. In and of themselves they are not bad but simply not worth their points. As above, 8pts ideally with some sort of buff; like all to wound rolls of 6 are AP-2 would go along way to making these guys compete with Vanguard, who are the same cost, have some defensive uses (rad armor) and nearly triple the firepower.
Alpha: Keep stock rife.
Snipers: Use this unit as extra wounds for said snipers. Just a minor add tid bit. A 10 man unit with 3 snipers, can either do wonders or will attract far too much attention. I've seen it do both.
Arc Rifles: Actually has pretty good snyergy here, though I still recommend these with Vanguard over Rangers, but I think this may be the best weapon for this unit.
Plasma: situational, if you know you'll be close within first or second turn, this may not be a bad choice. Though I'd recommend Arc rifles over these.
Rangers, in my opinion, have taken the worst brunt in the codex out of our whole line. They went from an excellent troop choice to sniper bodies. They can still perform however, rerolls of 1 to hit and a soft rend make them annoying to your opponents due to their long range. Ideally, two five man squads with a sniper or two plopped into a good tactical position can really help your army. A 10 man squad with 3 arc rifles in center field or camping on an objective can also be very useful. But that is about all they can do well, other units will fill any other rolls they might take better.
---Elites---
DiscoSticks: Most improved. Arugably one of the best counter charge units in the game currently. Many people forget they have a 5+++ which makes them almost as hardy as Nurgle deamons. When position cleverly, they will completly deter your opponents from would be great charge or deepstrike. Or not as good but still tactically useful, your opponents will be sure to focus fire these guys to death to allow them to deepstrike or charge. I will skip out on in detail explaining why they are so good, but their statline alone should give you all the reasons you need. Point wise, I think they are spot on. Any cheaper and they'd be broken. Any more expensive and I'm not sure if I'd take more than one squad.
Always take at least 10. 5 would be good, but they will be shot.
Jazz Hands: Great. Thought Vanguard are too squish and don't like their stregth 3? Well these are for you. Have all the same rules and boons as Disco sticks but can drown ANY unit in firepower. Give them a rerolls to hit with Cawl and laugh as you dish out 50 hits from a 10 man squad. TPD and/or canticles help these mooks out nicely. Their short range is their only weak point. Position them to either defend a unit/area or go super aggresive with them and give your enemy target saturation to avoid them being focus fired on.
Point wise, again, I think they are perfect. Always take at least 10, more may be better but situational and will draw more fire if you take more than 10.
These guys move well with Vanguard running up the field.
Servitors: Dont. They could have been great. Even at 8pts a model (servo arm) these things could have been useful. But at 12 pts... Just put the points elsewhere. Hopfully the codex will do 1 of two things. 1: Make them 8 pts with servo arm, then they could be useful. 2: change the equipment they can take and its restrictions.
**NEW** with teleportation, these mooks with Multimeltas plus a techpriest in conjunction with a point reduction can finally give us that deep strike melta attack we've been needing that every other army has.
Datasmith: Exactly what he is. Okay at combat but just a powerful baby sitter for your robots. I'd like to see him maybe just 10 points cheaper and be able to work with servitors and I'd think he could be really useful. Even more so, if he could repair other units. I'd happily keep his point costs the same if he could repair any admech units.
Infiltrators: Good. Used to be our only deepstrike, still good. Almost spot on in points. I'd prefer a soft point reduction or a slight bump in survivability. A 5++ would go a long way for these guys (what they used to have). Both options are good, simply kit them out for whatever task you want to them to handle.
Goads: good for light armored but still competent at exploding hits and overwhelming high armor.
Swords: Powerswords. Yes please.
Both variants do very well with canticles,primarily due to their all around good nature, their high output of attacks both melee and range allow for lots of dice and potential damage. +1 Strength makes you wound T3 models on 2s with goads and makes your power swords wound marines on 3s. Rerolls of 1 to range/melee just good to have.
These are a must have strategically, however with new codex and teleportation, they may lose their most important feature: deepstrike. I mean, you take them for deepstrike, if you have other options, you may not want to take these anymore. Overall, I will contradict myself here a bit. They are worth taking. If you can get the charge off or need something to take a backfield objective, they are decent glass cannons and are fairly quick and can handle most enemy types that are MC or Vehicles.
Ruststalkers: Don't. I have tried. I really have, have used both variants about a dozen times and only twice have they ever done anything useful. You will amost always be better served by infiltrators. The transonic razor and blade are sadly just garbage. The chordclaw is really the only thing that ever did anything when I used them. That being said, you're better off taking Discosticks for mortal wounds and counter charging and your better off with infiltrators at regualr damage dealing and mobility. This is, in my opinion, the most confusing and pointless unit in the codex. Mind you I say pointless, not bad. Just take something else. Hopefully the Codex will change the Transonic blades as currently they are the worst weapon in the codex.
The damn things don't even have an AP of 1!!!
I am super bitter about them because I love their models. I have 20 of them... 10 of each. Got them in 7th and am just sad to see how poor they have become...
---Fast Attack:---
I have nothing of importance to add here. I never use the walkers. I only own 1 of them, and it gets blown up first turn every time. I suspect 2 or 3 of them would fair better. The reason I do not have any is fiscal more than anything else.
--Heavy Support--
Dunecrawler: Excellent unit. Appropriatly costed. Hard hitting and can take ah it. An improved or comperable Leman Russ albeit not as fast.
All weapons on this thing are pretty worthwhile except the phosher blaster. The platform is too costly to justify that weapon being on it. If it were free or only like 5pts for the Dunecrawler, I'd change my mind. The stars here though Nuetraon Laser and Icarus array. Both excellent and both good at really everything. This thing is an embarresment of riches. I recommend taking 3 of any varation of your choice. The Cognis heavy stubbor is over costed though, but it is nice to have 3-6 extra shots comining off the thing.
Robits: Good. But expensive. Overall a strong unit in both melee and range based on what you kit it out with. Obviously range is its most popular form, but they also do very well in melee. Their fists are not to be ignored.
Ageis: My personal favorite mode. 2+/4++ and the retaliation of 5++. This mode may lack the Dakka or the Choppa of the other two, but my opponets best weapons to kill these things (Lazcannons) don't bother shooting them if I have this up. Meaning, they can just do whatever they want with near impunity. Keep a datamsith nearby though, you will probably want to change these things protocal at some point. Also, few things will annoy your opponent more than seeing on of these jerkwagons recover d3 wounds.
There ya go. My last several month of 40 some games as Admech. This was much longer originally and in a proper essay format for ease of reading, but with the new info of the codex out, I shortened it up. Everything I've said is now subject to change.
Walkers :
Dragoons now a great cheap fast option you either way need for brigade. Also lots of utility. Incence cloud is a defnce vs plasma especially with no equal. Vehicle fast larg base prolly the best screener we got. Has tanked for me in all games . Seems to me if you like rangers with arq jezls on dragoons synergize.
Ballistary where not worthy pick so far unless you played a lower point list and could not fit a third onger. Since recent changes with deep strike meaning even if they dont have incence cloud putting a group deep strike cn be our lasc strike. So you can have a triple twin lasc group deepstriking at a corner and pit your enemy in the mid . Its a strat. Dont know about autocsnnons i find them not in use in our army. So neutronagers better but ballistary can be one big unit wich most our buffs need...
Wrath of mars transformed the Robots into a single unit again 4-6 . These will be stationed and might even work with kataprhns and tech priest only if you decide more versatile formation. Would not be bad to make seperate group of 2 robots 3 destroyerd flamer screeners with a tech priest and place them on opposing corners. 3+ bs reroll ones . Either way one unit can get wrath of mars and if you decide to make an assault melee Cawl + canticle usage with 20 priests then options exist.
Onagers can do with out icarus again. You can play a small metalica buff and neutron can deal with fliers. Priests deep striking plasma destryers with durability that amount of robots wont give space to more anti troop points. Icarus was good for two options anti air anti inf. Not being able to split fire and the recent buffing on Robotopriests made them a bit less usef. Brig detach needs 3 h slot etc. Need to get some point reduction as you say and adding a robot vs an onager helps.
New options provide new tactics? We have not seen yet the full picture but. With a relic and Gaia warlord trait vanguard 10 man with arc or plasma or even barebones seems legit and lethal defenders. Plasma and -1 sat. Will wound 2+ overcharged tougness 5 even in cc. Rerolling 1s on hit. And 6+ not to be slain seems like pretty 7th to me for 45 barebones. As for rangers they will provide a cheap troop. Either a secong choise in gaia to max troop slpts with arq and harder to kill 5 man or a cheap 10 man arc. Screener deep strike what ever. Snipers with deep strike and 60 range lethal though i already preffer them mars and snipping. Wont be surprised if i saw them 40 points to close up detachm. Dont think i care taking up vanguard cause they shoot well. Survive with gaia to provide that -1 tough. This is our buff on wounding since we mostly got to hit buffing all over.
So far tech priest dominus is going to be my warlord cause gaia trait is what we missed from our screeners. Cheap troops a bit more resilient and since they can shoot in close combat leathal with plasma and saturation.
I dont know if knights will come in synergy play but i can dedinetly see atm all units becoming an option with that deep strike. Who will say no if we see a relic mask to change protocols a melee 4-6 robot with datasmith deep strike flamers and then charge for a 6 hit per robot. Might be the best flamer clear then long charge elite kill warhammer would have seen so far. Could kill a titan?? Ofc thats play silly but an option with a melee hq maybe. Deep strike must be an option for knights and soon. As so many plasma can alpha strike and since we practically agreed to roll on whos going first reserves must become valid again especially for big cost units.!!!!
Not to mention electro priests nowadays in various combinations. The stratagem lwtting them hit twice made staff priest viable in 5 man. Reducing th cost for having a group sitting and w8ing in your gun line. As for range priest. Imagine this Mars priests can shoot with rerolls. Get wrath of mars and then go melee with 2 canticles. Reroll ones and electrom. Plus their mortal on charge and chance to electrocute and reroll ones and benefit if vanguards already in 1 intch from enemy. What you want more?? And they can be deep stike big unit etc etc. Most likely the electropriest can fit most dogmas.
Infiltrators i only used with power swords etc. Now they can be mars. 10 of them cheaper than 20 priests still 50 shots with wrath can be a force. And give options inside a mars detach.
Last but not least breachers. I know they need some fixing. Their cost to begin with and their weapons both melee and range but. Their are troops with 3 w 5 t and with lucius you can deep strike them in qn obj and enemy must spend some heavy power to ge them down. They can shoot if that arc became a weapon agsin. But mainly -1 ap to hit them 2+ in cover and 9 wounds with some melee makes them again a valid option.
Thanks for sharing
Lucius aux will cost 2 cp s. Bad
Tip: keeping ad mech limited on units gives them the advantage to overdo it. 1 cp stratgem deep strike. The real exploit is being able to decide vs each enemy what unit you will use in teleportarium. But since you gotta use lucius dogma there the limits begin.
Detachments. Two options are best used with out further tax. Troops and elites. Patrol or vanguard . Rest will be limited again since we dont have even 3 different fast units or onager as big unit etc. Aux if you are 100% sure.
Just saying, in terms of stats, cancelling out -1 AP is actually really good. A lot of low-save units are vulnerable to -1 AP weapons such as Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Autocannons, and Phosphor Blasters. And even mid-durability units can benefit from that extra point of armor.
Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.
They will be hitting on 3+ as they are considered to have moved when they deepstrike in
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, If we get a +1 to hit for corps somehow, they'll become our best units by far
Also, If we get a +1 to hit for corps somehow, they'll become our best units by far
I highly doubt that. In the end, they are still T3 1W 6+ with 5+ FNP units that cost 14 points. Conscripts outshoot Electro-Priests on a point-for-point basis by 48%. (Remember, the minimum range of the Corpuscarii is the Rapid Fire range of the Conscript.)
Well Corps will always shoot first due to deepstrike, plus they can charge and destroy conscripts in melee.
And when they explode on 5+ (with that +1 to hit that I hope we get), then you'll just destroy anything you point at. Deepstrike within 2 30 man groups of conscripts, shoot 1 unit, charge the other
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well Corps will always shoot first due to deepstrike, plus they can charge and destroy conscripts in melee.
And when they explode on 5+ (with that +1 to hit that I hope we get), then you'll just destroy anything you point at. Deepstrike within 2 30 man groups of conscripts, shoot 1 unit, charge the other
Actually, other way around. Conscripts with Fix Bayonets! are still more deadly on a point-for-point basis than Corpuscarii in CC. =\
I did the math and it seems you are correct. 20 Corpuscarii will indeed beat 93 Conscripts, assuming the former deep strikes in, shoots, then charges, and then they grind each other to death fighting. But in a real-life scenario, people bring 83 Conscripts in two units with a Commissar. If they fall back and the other unit shoots, it's over.
Either way, conscripts are the unit that will get nerfed 100%. They're the most problematic unit in GW40k by FAR. Every day the testers are syaing "ehh, you shouldn't buy many of them *wink*"
Suzuteo wrote: I highly doubt that. In the end, they are still T3 1W 6+ with 5+ FNP units that cost 14 points. Conscripts outshoot Electro-Priests on a point-for-point basis by 48%. (Remember, the minimum range of the Corpuscarii is the Rapid Fire range of the Conscript.)
Corps are 6+, 5++, 5+++.
Not 6+ 5+ FnP. Though you can basically ignore the 6+. The back to back 5+ is what counts.
Suzuteo wrote: I highly doubt that. In the end, they are still T3 1W 6+ with 5+ FNP units that cost 14 points. Conscripts outshoot Electro-Priests on a point-for-point basis by 48%. (Remember, the minimum range of the Corpuscarii is the Rapid Fire range of the Conscript.)
Corps are 6+, 5++, 5+++.
Not 6+ 5+ FnP. Though you can basically ignore the 6+. The back to back 5+ is what counts.
That was a typo. I wrote 5+ 5+++ at first, then I wrote 6+ 5++ 5+++, and messed up and deleted the 5++. =(
Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.
They will be hitting on 3+ as they are considered to have moved when they deepstrike in
They have the Broad Spectrum Data Tether which with the Strategm will give a +2 - so would be a 2+
Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.
They will be hitting on 3+ as they are considered to have moved when they deepstrike in
They have the Broad Spectrum Data Tether which with the Strategm will give a +2 - so would be a 2+
Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.
They will be hitting on 3+ as they are considered to have moved when they deepstrike in
They have the Broad Spectrum Data Tether which with the Strategm will give a +2 - so would be a 2+
Ah yes, good catch
would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.
would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.
I actually think the Autocannon version is better. This is because in terms of role, Neutron Crawlers are superior to Lascannon Ballistarii in every way but move distance, which is of questionable value for something with a 48" range that is expected to slug it out with other vehicles with 48" range weapons. In other words, I can find a use for a 75 point screening unit that can handle infantry, but not as 95 point anti-tank unit that is itself vulnerable to tanks.
Maintaining their 3+ save means your battle servitors will stay in the fight for much longer, while the unique Lucius stratagem, Legio Teleportarium, is perfect for delivering them into optimal combat range.
Yea get katphrons to optimal combat range to fire what?? They are making fun of us in gw.
Knight deep strike is first a reserve option much in need for many costly units. Yes like kataphrons knights etc.
Still when i see elimination volley i cant stop thinking once more how expensive this all stratagems dogmas are. In an army with no cps synergise destroyers troops with Robots heavy. If you think you can make a Mars detachment with troops we heading again to overcosts.
Or once more we gott decide one dogma over the other and those kind of decisions have us low tier thus far.
Always talking about competitive play the fact most local tourneys got detchment restrictions like 2-3 per 2k + the fact that we cant get cheap troopsand cheap hq actully doing something thn being a tax bare bones . ( compared to commisar orders infantry ig) that synergise to get you also deep strike plasma that can deal with any threat. While you gotta pay again tax.
The only good option was to be able to choose from lucius dogma detachment what to place in deep strike. How ill that happen. What for m of detwchment could give you options . Again tax ones either vanguard or patrol to have options. Else you d have to decide before you reach the table. So once more its not an unlimited deep strike option its an expensive one. I will use it and finally we got one option but taking aux and gem starts with -2 cp s to get a knight in reserve....before deploy.
2 wrath /turn for 1-2-3 turns dont be greedy. 1-2 rerolls 1-2-3 deep strike gem ? 3 to play electro priest a second melee time? 2 cp for one melee interuot o you wont loose key char? Average 13 cps with no reall combinatios elkmination maniples bla bla. Impossible and most likely the rest of the armies will get 10 +cp s in already build armies that can do what we will try to do wth relics and stratagems.
Enjoy your pew oew while it lasts cause when other codex come out we going on the bottom again. Maybe with better chances but we dont have yet any real answer. Cost wise points or cps... to make a combination. Cauze just droping a unit of priests as stated that cost around 400 points minimum for a vanguard lucius and 2-4 cp s or more if aux wont win you the game in comparisson to lets say 400 poimts of plasma deep strike ig...
would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.
I actually think the Autocannon version is better. This is because in terms of role, Neutron Crawlers are superior to Lascannon Ballistarii in every way but move distance, which is of questionable value for something with a 48" range that is expected to slug it out with other vehicles with 48" range weapons. In other words, I can find a use for a 75 point screening unit that can handle infantry, but not as 95 point anti-tank unit that is itself vulnerable to tanks.
Being able to have a unit of 3 gives deep strike options. So the option i yes anonager is better but you can change 1onager for a duo lasc balistari. Deep strike them in a corner and make you enemy divide to chase them. Options as i see it. Ye onager is better but can be a problem if you play solo ad mech to bubble wrap all your guns
Hmmm maybe dropping in a Onager with the Beamer could be nice. its basically a meltra drop for 120 pts but its at least something to think about. I am curious if Onagers get their close combat weapon back and if so how that will turn out.
It's too expensive in terms of CP to deep strike Beam Crawlers. Kataphron and Kastelans seem to be the best option. Definitely Knights if they get <Forge World>; they would be terrifying.
dropping kastelans is a good thought but is it really that useful? They dont have a range problem for their weapons so keeping them in reserve is just for not getting them killed first round. Id say they still belong to Mars and a gunline in the backfield but this is something that needs to be tested.
Cawl onagers can move so if you plan to get only 2 robots its an option. I will definetly try melee robots electrostaff usully melle. Maybe a 10 man infiltrators with mars we ll see we still missing lots of info
I would prefer a lower point cost for our units even slight one ll over than any buff atm. I dont want onagrs to be melee . I want ranger vanguard alhas as hq options. I want kataprhons reduced cost.
Arc revamped. Radium jezzail revamped. -1 ap on taser weapons. More gamma weapons. And hq with melee auras.
More than any other. Viable options for an army we already got...
Then ill w8 a year for new units like fliers transports 30 k etc gladly.
would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.
I actually think the Autocannon version is better. This is because in terms of role, Neutron Crawlers are superior to Lascannon Ballistarii in every way but move distance, which is of questionable value for something with a 48" range that is expected to slug it out with other vehicles with 48" range weapons. In other words, I can find a use for a 75 point screening unit that can handle infantry, but not as 95 point anti-tank unit that is itself vulnerable to tanks.
IMO you summed up why Lascannon Balistarii with the Legio Teleportarium & Protector Doctrina Imperative strategms are so effective. Currently I go Neutron Crawler with Autocannon Balistarii because the Crawler can take a hit and still be effective, as apposed to making the Balistarii into a high-threat target which can be killed easily.
With only 2CP, you can allow the Balistarii unit to come down and lay essentially 6-8 hits on a 2+ (so re-roll that if near your Tech Priest), deleting any significant threat better than a Dunecraler point-for-point, and also importantly freeing up the Dunecrawler to go Icarus without worrying about your anti-tank suffering
Actually here's an idea deep striking onagers with kastelans. Deep strike in t1 or 2 and divide the enemy force. Your classic pincer move. Have a spearhead at opposite ends of the board use remaining points for skirmishers of some kind
I think whatever FW comes out with the -1 to-hit may be the easier way to go for a Ballistarii lascannon unit. Otherwise, it seems CP and point heavy for something that might nuke a tank or two. Which we don't struggle to do as it is.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I think whatever FW comes out with the -1 to-hit may be the easier way to go for a Ballistarii lascannon unit. Otherwise, it seems CP and point heavy for something that might nuke a tank or two. Which we don't struggle to do as it is.
yeah onagers have us spoiled..... also other things but mainly onagers
gendoikari87 wrote: I think your math is off as the only way lower to hit results in more mortals would be if the wrath of mars went off to hit instead of to wound
CRAP. Lemme re-do this.
EDIT:
WOUND ROLLS!
SO! Because I am dumb and math and hey... I'm an artist, not a mathematician. There is a reason I got a degree in Fine Art and a C in Algebra.
Looks like with the -1 to-hit power on Morty, we will do 15 wounds after DR. Not bad!
And if they somehow don't put that power on him, we can do up to 21 wounds after DR, which is a dead Primarch!
Also, anyone good at math should definitely check my numbers!
Unless im mistaken or nerfed Cawl can reroll all shots not missed ones only. So take your chances and roll for it. Either way the Robots true power is the -2 - cover able to kill campers in mass.
Neutronagers could potentially go for mortarion and if decided to ise also wrath and robots you d propably take down any target. Most other armies got equal strategies other with melee alpha other with deep strike alpha. Ours is still limited on deploy range etc.
I would not take balistari. Sorry. The only thing i like is deep strike a bigger unit to cross my enemy and take some heat of my dakka line still v expnsive and plasma seems to king on that. Split fire overcharge potentially used for varius targets and a troop.
So far as i see kataphrons as troops or maybe some elote choises + knight best deep strike options. Most likely flamers plasma.
If we talking just putting fast units on a detachment for me atm sniper dragoons or lances are my choise. Robots neutronagers better on both options. Even if you decided to go for a anti tank spamm neutron on onagers are still better. Way better even if only 1 out of three shot wound 3-6 damage consistent.
Tpd ( or engiseer) with plasma and or maybe a 10 man 3 plasma vangu. Close to the early 7th combo with drop pods seems to be winning for me. A simple lucius patrol. Maybe some breacher obj holders. A battalion with 2 engiseers 2 * plasma 1 * breachers can actually do serious thing in the field. So expensive but most logical for me. 3 cps batt 4 used on deep strike engiseers and plasms or some variation of that.
Mortarion having 3+4++5+++ is sturdy. I din't include -1 to hit from power. And it is possible to have him in your deployment zone in 1st turn, so I'm bit scared of him. My Celestine can do the same but i is much easier to shake her of your units. As our primary power comes from shooting, having to fall back from CC with this guy is extremely hard.
Mortarion having 3+4++5+++ is sturdy. I din't include -1 to hit from power. And it is possible to have him in your deployment zone in 1st turn, so I'm bit scared of him. My Celestine can do the same but i is much easier to shake her of your units. As our primary power comes from shooting, having to fall back from CC with this guy is extremely hard.
I use the Calculator tool on Windows with a Notepad open! I am low-tech af.
For the -1 to-hit option against Mortarion:
6 Robots w/ Wrath of Mars & Cawl's re-rolls (round up mostly)
108 shots -> 60 hits after re-rolls -> 20 standard wounds and 10 mortal wounds -> 10 wounds after 4++ -> 13 wounds dealt after DR
So there we go. Revised and hopefully right. Showing my work a bit now too, because holy crap am I bad at math.
Huh. That is ....unique. 3CP to bring back a unit of 6 Destroyers wouldn't be awful, in theory. Mitigates their lack of durability, sort of.
Uh... huh. Not sure that is terribly useful overall. Not bad, just not great.
Also, power of deduction puts us at Stygies being the -1 to-hit, which I think was rumored right? So let's hope it is for everything and stacks with our Dragoons!
Huh. That is ....unique. 2CP to bring back a unit of 6 Destroyers wouldn't be awful, in theory. Mitigates their lack of durability, sort of.
Uh... huh. Not sure that is terribly useful overall. Not bad, just not great.
Also, power of deduction puts us at Stygies being the -1 to-hit, which I think was rumored right? So let's hope it is for everything and stacks with our Dragoons!
I can live with a lame forge world rules if they have fun stratagems like this! this will be soooo capable of pissing off your opponents, especially if you are using breachers with Torsion cannons.
yeah, but what we use them for? everything that kathaprons could, others could do better. I'm not gone mention servitors. If this wasn't Agrippa only stratgem, maybe then...
Im not sold for this FW. Maybe with some changes in pts, but Id rather chose graia right now.
Hmmm so a unit of 6 destroyers is 20 PR. This might be a thing since what kataphrons lack the most is durability. Morale might be a kick in the teeth though.
So I know some of the units aren't the best choices but I don't actually own all of the models I am going to use, so I'm going to make due with what I have for tomorrow. Some thoughts on my list would be appreciated. My whole collection consists of:
2 TPD
Cawl
15 vanguard w/2 plasma and 2 arc rifles (I use all as plasma)
5 rangers with 2 arquebii
6 kataphrons I built as destroyers
2 onagers (1 icarus and 1 neutron)
Knight (fully magnetized)
all 4 assassins
Heres my thoughts on a list (I'll be using 2 contemptor dreads, I feel they are close on size, for the kastellans and a random space marine as the datasmith)
2k battalion admech (Cawl warlord)
TPD - eradication, phosphor
TPD - volkite, phosphor
Cawl
5 rangers - 2x arquebii, omnispex
5 vanguard - 2 plasma, EDT
5 vanguard - 2 plasma, EDT
Datasmith
2 kastellans - 3x phosphor blasters each
neutronager - extra heavy stubber, BSDT
onager - icarus array, BSDT
Knight Errant - gauntlet, autocannon (ran out of points for the stormspear pod :/ )
Eversor
Vindicaire
So I have some sniping with the rangers and vindicaire, CC threat from the eversor to kind of be a tiny distraction carnifex lol. The kastellans shoot all the stuff while the vanguard try to provide some semblance of 'bubble wrap'. I only have 5 more rangers and they don't have any specials, should I try to get 5 more bodies in there for more buffer? It's not super good at all, but it's super fun to play and I am stoked to keep playing with the army, looking forwards to the codex. If y'all can think of anything to change in the models I have, I'm all ears
Since you are getting assassins I would squeeze some points for culexus. Those pesky psykers will hate him, but you will love him so much.
Who are you using as hq in other detachment? Since you can't mix assassins without another one.
TBH servitors would be great if we could put heavy bolters on the whole squad instead of just half of them. The big thing that hurts them is half the squad is stuck paying for what are basically powerfists, when they don't have the stats to make good use of them. And powerfists ain't cheap.
ross-128 wrote: TBH servitors would be great if we could put heavy bolters on the whole squad instead of just half of them. The big thing that hurts them is half the squad is stuck paying for what are basically powerfists, when they don't have the stats to make good use of them. And powerfists ain't cheap.
actually I'd prefer instead a bigger squad size something like max gen with 8 heavy weapons those power fists ain't cheap but the servitors are basically free
Automatically Appended Next Post:
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Alaric, you lose your Canticles if you are not all-Admech.
Suzuteo wrote: Wait. This stratagem is either an overcosted Outflank or amazingly good. It hinges on two questions:
1) Do damaged models in the unit get repaired?
2) Do destroyed models in the unit get replaced?
Because it states "as you would a unit arriving as reinforcements." How far does this logic extend?
Because if it does #2, we now know how much every CP is worth in points for us.
Yup they get back new and shiny, to the full starting strength. Its only bad if the unit is destroyed, because you can't use it. One Kathapron must stay with at least 1W. This could add us something 400 points. The problem is ass right now, they are not worthy those 420 pts in first place.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Alaric, you lose your Canticles if you are not all-Admech.
Good call, maybe run then in a vanguard, since I have 3 HQs? It would net me 1 CP as well.
Scrap one of those TDPs and opt for Greyfax to head up the detachment. Probably more useful.
I'd rather take Hector Rex, 20pts more but can deny 3 times and +1 for that, can deep strike and has 3+inv.
Greyfax has +1 to deny results as well via Indomitable, but Rex is definitely better all around.
Is it an oversight that Storm shields aren't listed in the point section? He would likely have to pay for that, but I don't see it addressed in the FAQ or anything. Huh.
The question is if 420 pponts worth of destroyers could work as a screen that would survive with at least one wound a massive first turn charge. If so I see some potential.
Yup they get back new and shiny, to the full starting strength. Its only bad if the unit is destroyed, because you can't use it. One Kathapron must stay with at least 1W. This could add us something 400 points. The problem is ass right now, they are not worthy those 420 pts in first place.
Then this is amazingly, amazingly good. Easily better than Mars, perhaps broken levels of OP.
Kataphrons are only bad because they cost a lot and are glass cannons. But if the opponent has to table them, that changes things. 6x Kataphrons have 18 wounds and shoot 6D6 of the most efficient ranged weapon in the game. You can totally replace it for 3 CP, and reposition it at will. FOUR times with a single Brigade, a Brigade that is going to be shelling the opponent while you're constantly threatening his backline. Plus you get 5+ Overwatch (no modifiers!).
Iago40k wrote: The question is if 420 pponts worth of destroyers could work as a screen that would survive with at least one wound a massive first turn charge. If so I see some potential.
You get to choose where to deploy it at the end of YOUR Movement Phase, so as long as you know your opponent's units' threat bubbles, they probably won't be able to charge you in time.
Are you going to be able to afford a Brigade with that many Kataphrons in your list? It's a pretty expensive unit even if you only get one unit of them and fill the rest of your troop slots with Vanguard/Rangers you're paying a lot more than other Brigade-fielding armies do for your troops.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Alaric, you lose your Canticles if you are not all-Admech.
Good call, maybe run then in a vanguard, since I have 3 HQs? It would net me 1 CP as well.
Scrap one of those TDPs and opt for Greyfax to head up the detachment. Probably more useful.
I'd rather take Hector Rex, 20pts more but can deny 3 times and +1 for that, can deep strike and has 3+inv.
Unfortunately I only have space marines to draw from other than the models I posted up that was my whole collection.
Maybe you have terminator with powersword and storm shield? Since you said you are proxing other models, i don't see problem.
I do have a squad of cataphractii terminators for my raven guard, with a captain in cataphractii armor, but at that point I'm sinking some serious points into that vanguard. Maybe use just the captain, then the assassins and datasmith?
Yup they get back new and shiny, to the full starting strength. Its only bad if the unit is destroyed, because you can't use it. One Kathapron must stay with at least 1W. This could add us something 400 points. The problem is ass right now, they are not worthy those 420 pts in first place.
Then this is amazingly, amazingly good. Easily better than Mars, perhaps broken levels of OP.
Kataphrons are only bad because they cost a lot and are glass cannons. But if the opponent has to table them, that changes things. 6x Kataphrons have 18 wounds and shoot 6D6 of the most efficient ranged weapon in the game. You can totally replace it for 3 CP, and reposition it at will. FOUR times with a single Brigade, a Brigade that is going to be shelling the opponent while you're constantly threatening his backline. Plus you get 5+ Overwatch (no modifiers!).
Iago40k wrote: The question is if 420 pponts worth of destroyers could work as a screen that would survive with at least one wound a massive first turn charge. If so I see some potential.
You get to choose where to deploy it at the end of YOUR Movement Phase, so as long as you know your opponent's units' threat bubbles, they probably won't be able to charge you in time.
They are not gonna survive 20 Khorne berserkers guaranteed turn one charge. Not even first turn of their attacks. (alpha legion have similar stratgem to lucius one, ad sorcerer to that to give them ability to move an they are 100% in)
Yup they get back new and shiny, to the full starting strength. Its only bad if the unit is destroyed, because you can't use it. One Kathapron must stay with at least 1W. This could add us something 400 points. The problem is ass right now, they are not worthy those 420 pts in first place.
Then this is amazingly, amazingly good. Easily better than Mars, perhaps broken levels of OP.
Kataphrons are only bad because they cost a lot and are glass cannons. But if the opponent has to table them, that changes things. 6x Kataphrons have 18 wounds and shoot 6D6 of the most efficient ranged weapon in the game. You can totally replace it for 3 CP, and reposition it at will. FOUR times with a single Brigade, a Brigade that is going to be shelling the opponent while you're constantly threatening his backline. Plus you get 5+ Overwatch (no modifiers!).
Iago40k wrote: The question is if 420 pponts worth of destroyers could work as a screen that would survive with at least one wound a massive first turn charge. If so I see some potential.
You get to choose where to deploy it at the end of YOUR Movement Phase, so as long as you know your opponent's units' threat bubbles, they probably won't be able to charge you in time.
They are not gonna survive 20 Khorne berserkers guaranteed turn one charge. Not even first turn of their attacks. (alpha legion have similar stratgem to lucius one, ad sorcerer to that to give them ability to move an they are 100% in)
Thats what Vanguard are for, to screen your units. Are they the best? no, but they can survive and they even weaken the enemy for your countercharge
Arachnofiend wrote:Are you going to be able to afford a Brigade with that many Kataphrons in your list? It's a pretty expensive unit even if you only get one unit of them and fill the rest of your troop slots with Vanguard/Rangers you're paying a lot more than other Brigade-fielding armies do for your troops.
Hold my fermented digestive lubrication product.
EDIT: Actually, looking at that list again, we might just cut down on the taxes and make the entire thing Agripinaa:
Heavy Support - 766 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
2x Kastelan Robot - Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Total: 2000 points 12 Command Points
This assumes Skitarii (my bubble-wrap) come down to 9/8 points each, but everything else costs the same. No Cawl, but the rerolling 1 is fine for the Destroyers, and if you really needed to bring something down, you can use Elimination Volley.
To be honest, I am still holding out for deep striking Mechanicum Knights, but this is interesting as well.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Suzuteo, no need for more than one squad. Can't do this strategem more than once per phase.
They are not gonna survive 20 Khorne berserkers guaranteed turn one charge. Not even first turn of their attacks. (alpha legion have similar stratgem to lucius one, ad sorcerer to that to give them ability to move an they are 100% in)
And we will have a crapton of bubble wrap for that?
Summary of what we dont know thus far
28 stratagems - 7 fw specific ones, 1 knight one and the 3 base ones
13 warlord traits - 7 fw specific, 6 generic
Apparently the Knight trait is "Knight of the Cog" no cost or duration or when it activates but something to the effect of "Knight within 12 inches of a TPD gets Canticles"
Also you can only place the new ones in your deployment zone within 6" of the table edge AND 9" away from enemies. Does really having the unit get blasted off the table and come back from the very back of the field be that helpful?
Yup they get back new and shiny, to the full starting strength. Its only bad if the unit is destroyed, because you can't use it. One Kathapron must stay with at least 1W. This could add us something 400 points. The problem is ass right now, they are not worthy those 420 pts in first place.
Then this is amazingly, amazingly good. Easily better than Mars, perhaps broken levels of OP.
Kataphrons are only bad because they cost a lot and are glass cannons. But if the opponent has to table them, that changes things. 6x Kataphrons have 18 wounds and shoot 6D6 of the most efficient ranged weapon in the game. You can totally replace it for 3 CP, and reposition it at will. FOUR times with a single Brigade, a Brigade that is going to be shelling the opponent while you're constantly threatening his backline. Plus you get 5+ Overwatch (no modifiers!).
Iago40k wrote: The question is if 420 pponts worth of destroyers could work as a screen that would survive with at least one wound a massive first turn charge. If so I see some potential.
You get to choose where to deploy it at the end of YOUR Movement Phase, so as long as you know your opponent's units' threat bubbles, they probably won't be able to charge you in time.
They are not gonna survive 20 Khorne berserkers guaranteed turn one charge. Not even first turn of their attacks. (alpha legion have similar stratgem to lucius one, ad sorcerer to that to give them ability to move an they are 100% in)
Is this a separate detachments greatest hits CSM army to get the stratagem to deepstrike and to have a sorc which cant be khorne for warptime?
Jaynen wrote: Also you can only place the new ones in your deployment zone within 6" of the table edge AND 9" away from enemies. Does really having the unit get blasted off the table and come back from the very back of the field be that helpful?
Sure it is; their main guns are 30" and 36". Ignoring terrain, you will basically always be able to come back on and shoot something worthwhile unless literally all they have that you care about is way back in a corner, and even that only matters on half of the deployment maps.
Is this a separate detachments greatest hits CSM army to get the stratagem to deepstrike and to have a sorc which cant be khorne for warptime?
Jaynen wrote: Also you can only place the new ones in your deployment zone within 6" of the table edge AND 9" away from enemies. Does really having the unit get blasted off the table and come back from the very back of the field be that helpful?
Sure it is; their main guns are 30" and 36". Ignoring terrain, you will basically always be able to come back on and shoot something worthwhile unless literally all they have that you care about is way back in a corner, and even that only matters on half of the deployment maps.
Is this a separate detachments greatest hits CSM army to get the stratagem to deepstrike and to have a sorc which cant be khorne for warptime?
Alpha Legion can do all of this stuff no problem.
Yep, single detachment alpha legion. No greatest hits. Berserkers are Khorne as standard I think, but sorcerers can choose their mark, and you can have mixed daemon worshippers in one detachment as long as they're all the same legion.
Fluff-wise, it would make them a chaos undivided Alpha Legion detachment. Perfectly legit. Also pretty good.
Summary of what we dont know thus far
28 stratagems - 7 fw specific ones, 1 knight one and the 3 base ones
13 warlord traits - 7 fw specific, 6 generic
Apparently the Knight trait is "Knight of the Cog" no cost or duration or when it activates but something to the effect of "Knight within 12 inches of a TPD gets Canticles"
No <Forge World>? NOOOOOO...
Jaynen wrote: Also you can only place the new ones in your deployment zone within 6" of the table edge AND 9" away from enemies. Does really having the unit get blasted off the table and come back from the very back of the field be that helpful?
Yes. Redeploying 6 Kataphrons anywhere you want in your deployment zone and then immediately shooting is a big deal. You are essentially summoning 420 points worth of shooting with 3CP, and your opponent has to dump virtually everything on them for one turn to try and get rid of them.
Then there are the combat tricks. You can use them defensively, since they have that double overwatch. Just drop them directly in between your artillery and some enemy unit. Once they engage, assuming they fail to wipe your unit out, you can pull them out of CC with the stratagem, drop them another 24" away, and shoot again. You can also use them to capture and deny objectives, since they are troops and have objective secured.
ross-128 wrote: TBH servitors would be great if we could put heavy bolters on the whole squad instead of just half of them. The big thing that hurts them is half the squad is stuck paying for what are basically powerfists, when they don't have the stats to make good use of them. And powerfists ain't cheap.
I think (and hope) they intend to do this, as it would buff their sales considerably. I know I'd buy at least a 4 man squad.
For real. 3 knight lists now have a reason to bring 3 enginseers as babysitters, but that is it.
I think the hands down, best possible admech list is going to be a full 2000 point Mars Brigade. The strategems have ways of generating HUGE damage out of a 4-6 phosphorbot deathball. You can double shoot on the first turn and ace magnus. You can even move the robots and spend a CP to have them ignore the movement penalty. And if you are weird and bring kataphrons, you can even add +1 to their hit rolls! The phosphorbot deathball is guaranteed to erase 400 points of models ever turn it successfully shoots.
I kind of understand running lucius if you were super serious about infantry because deep strike. Or possibly Stygies VIII because they have ravenguard chapter tactics (-1 at 12") and ravenguard deployment tricks (word for word it is deploy at top of first battle round). These are cool defensive tricks, but you still would have no way to deal with magnus.
Some really cool stuff for stratagems and warlord traits in there. I especially like the one where you get a command point back on a 6+ if you OR YOUR OPPONENT use a stratagem! I love being able to screw with my opponent's head with things like this.
So far my favorite is still looking like Mars because of the stratagem to cause mortal wounds. I really like that Doctrina Imperatives are back. Elimination Maniple is back, and that stratagem is really damn good too.
Didn't get a good look at all of the Relics, but not a whole lot of them look any good to me. I really liked the one where you start with +1 Command Point but its Graia only.
Mars still seems like a no-brainer for Cawl and Wrathbots, at least in the main detachment. Stygies Dragoons are now crazy good for screening, as they can't be shifted with shooting (-2 to-hit is nuts). Not sure I will bother with more than that, honestly.
I feel like for general non forge world jumping play that Stygies or Lucian will be the best however. Because Lucian you get the AP-1 buff and teleportation which is arguably by far one of the best stratagems
Spera wrote: Also, warlord trait where you can get CP whenever stratagem is used is good. This will net you 2-3 per game. Lucius, Stygies and Mars it is.
Sad for knights. They can't even be in same detachment with rest of ad mech.
Don't know what to think about that codex yet. For sure leaved me less impressed than CSMSM and DG one.
To be fair, there's zero reason to take a Supreme Command as AdMech so you're going to tuck your knight into its own detachment regardless.
whoa ryza gets a strategem where they add 1 to wound on plasma guns.... didn't get a good look but str 8 against a landraider is 4+? nope now it's a 3+
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh gak and damage.... wound and damage D3 shots wounding on 3 doing 3 damage each on a land raider? yes please.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Machine spirits revenge. Wait what? seriously? don't syndonians and ironstriders blow up?
Automatically Appended Next Post: generic warlord trait lets you re roll canticles
Random regurgitation of thoughts from that Winters SEO video.
Unit Changes
Belisarius Cawl: Repairs Imperium for 1 or Adeptus Mechanicus for D3 (no Questor Mechanicus; Winters SEO is mistaken)
Tech-Priest Dominus: Repairs <Forge World> for D3 or Questor Mechanicus for 1
Tech-Priest Enginseer: Now an HQ and repairs <Forge World> or <Astra Militarum> vehicles for D3 or Questor Mechanicus for 1
Skitarii Vanguard: Now costs 8. (Winters SEO might be mistaken.)
Skitarii Ranger: Now costs 9.
Kataphron Breacher: Heavy Arc rifle is cheaper (how much is unspecified)
Kastelan Robots: Protocols got changed. You need natural 6s for Aegis, and Protector is now 2x shots rather than 2x attacks.
Sicarian Infiltrators: -1A has been codified
Sydonian Dragoons: Taser Lances get AP-1
Mechanicum Knights: No Adeptus Mechanicus or <Forge World> keywords.
Stratagems
Binharic Override Makes Datasmiths optional. Plus you can do terrifying openings like Cawl and 4-6x Kastelans running up the board, use Binharic Override and Wrath of Mars, then immediately fire 108 rerollable shots...
Machine Spirit's Revenge Good. 1 CP to explode vehicles when they die.
Rotate Ion Shields Good. Makes a lone Knight ridiculously hard to bring down for one turn.
Warlord Traits
1 - Necromechanic Good. You can expect to get 1 CP for every 6 CP your opponent uses.
2 - Magos Biologis Bad.
3 - Mechadominator Situationally good.
4 - Necromechanic The best one by far. Stronger repairs let you aggressively trade wounds with other shooting armies.
5 - Chorister Technis Good. Better chance of Shroudpsalm.
6 - Prime Hermeticon Bad. Our infantry are still going to want to avoid fighting.
Arcana Mechanicum
Anzion's Pseudogenetor Mixed bag. Again, we're not looking to get into CC.
Autocaduceus of Arkhan LandNecromechanic
Good. You'll always need to repair stuff.
Uncreator Gauntlet Bad.
Phosphoenix Bad. Better than a Phosphor Serpenta.
Raiment of the Technomartyr GREAT. I think this only works on natural 6s, but wow, firing double Overwatch is monstrous for your Kastelans.
The Omniscient Mask Bad, since it has to go on a character, and our melee specialists deep strike or run twice as fast.
The Skull of Elder Nikola Bad. I wish Litany of the Electromancer did this...
Forge World Reviews
Mars Dogma: Good. Improves the chance that most of your artillery will have Shroudpsalm.
Stratagem: AWESOME. Lets you go through Stormshields like a machine gun through butter.
Warlord: Good. 9" bubble for Cawl's reroll aura lets your Crawlers spread out a bit more.
Conclusion: Definitely the best default option due to Cawl.
Graia Dogma: Good. Greatly improves Skitarii durability.
Stratagem: Too expensive, but nice try.
Warlord Trait: Okay. The big problem is the small bubble. 6" around your Warlord is not a lot of room, especially since Dominuses are not exactly the most mobile unit.
Conclusion: Probably your best choice if you are running mass infantry.
Metallica Dogma: Bad.
Stratagem: Doesn't really matter, since most horde armies can handle morale.
Warlord Trait: Good. Get out of CC card.
Conclusion: Skip.
Lucius Dogma: Good. Almost all anti-horde weapons have either AP0 or AP-1
Stratagem: This is what you take Lucius for. Great for Electro-Priests or pretty much anything that shoots.
Warlord Trait: Okay. Your Dominus gets 4++.
Conclusion: Good. I know it's what we expected to be the number one choice for a supporting detachment to Mars, but that is clearly going to be Stygies VIII.
Agripinaa Dogma: Mixed bag. If you are getting charged, you're screwed. Your hope is that you don't have to use this Dogma.
Stratagem: Seem VERY overpowered. This may be the only Forge World where you can give up Cawl and be okay.
Warlord Trait: Okay. Your Dominus pretty much cannot be killed by hordes.
Conclusion: Potentially broken interactions. Alternative to Mars.
Stygies VIII Dogma: AWESOME. Wow.
Stratagem: AWESOME. ANOTHER DEEP STRIKE?!
Warlord Trait: Situationally good.
Conclusion: Raven Guard, Mechanicum-style. Alternative to Mars. As a supporting detachment, definitely put Ironstriders into this detachment. It makes Dragoons incredibly durable from a distance, and Autocannon Ballistarii are going to be nightmarish harassers as long as they keep 12" away.
Ryza Dogma: An alternative for Dragoons. Fulgurites aren't going anywhere without transports, and Infiltrators are just bad now.
Stratagem: Confusing... aren't these guys the melee specialists?
Warlord Trait: Good. This is pretty much upgrades Eradication Ray to have +1 to wound and +1D against most vehicles.
Conclusion: Skip. No idea what they were thinking here.
People seem to be talking about the Stygies dogma as amazing, but the only time someone said what it was it was only rumoured? I know some of you seem to have the new codex now (or have seen it somewhere leaked) so what is it? Just a straight -1 to hit on all units?
Niiru wrote: People seem to be talking about the Stygies dogma as amazing, but the only time someone said what it was it was only rumoured? I know some of you seem to have the new codex now (or have seen it somewhere leaked) so what is it? Just a straight -1 to hit on all units?
It is word for word identical to ravenguard, but it affects everything, even Onagers.
-1 to hit from shooting outside of 12", and they have the same ravenguard pre-first turn deploy on the table.
Niiru wrote: People seem to be talking about the Stygies dogma as amazing, but the only time someone said what it was it was only rumoured? I know some of you seem to have the new codex now (or have seen it somewhere leaked) so what is it? Just a straight -1 to hit on all units?
It is word for word identical to ravenguard, but it affects everything, even Onagers.
-1 to hit from shooting outside of 12", and they have the same ravenguard pre-first turn deploy on the table.
Ahh ok, so I don't know space mareenz at all, but I *do* know chaos, and that's also exactly the same as Alpha Legion lol.
Except Alpha (and I presume same with ravenguard) only effects infantry, bikers and helbrutes. So the admech one is certainly interesting. Makes onagers and dakkastelans pretty durable.
The infiltrate stratagem is likely best used (once again) on electro-priests. I'm not impressed with Fist Kastellans (especially compared to the dakka variety, 3 attacks at 4+ isn't good and S10 is not exactly an amazing breakpoint for anything) and Ruststalkers are just going to get shot off the board if you try to use them.
Heavy Support - 1089 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
6x Kastelan Robot - Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Total: 1996 points 12 Command Points
Goal is to move the Kastelans into position and alpha strike with Binharic Override or switch it on like normal, then just commit to out-shooting them. Skitarii and Servitors are bubble-wrap. Dragoons are the screen. Neutron Crawler is your anti-tank.
2. Stygies VIII Spearhead/Outrider Spam
Spoiler:
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 725
HQ - 135 1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Warlord: Necromechanic, Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
Heavy Support - 590 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
3x Kastelan Robots - Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 481
HQ - 52 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Heavy Support - 416 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
Basically, you bring nothing but HQs, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. Don't even bother with a Datasmith: once you pop BInharic Override, he's dead points that could go into another Enginseer. With five HQs constantly repairing 5 Crawlers and 3 Ballistarii with 48" and 3 Kastelans covering them 12" out, all of which have at least -1 to hit (-2 to hit for the Ironstriders), you just have an absolutely massive amount of extremely durable artillery. The only downside is that you lose consistent Canticles with Cawl.
3. Agripinaa Brigade
The list that I posted before:
Spoiler:
Agripinaa Brigade Detachment - 1419
HQ - 239 1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Warlord: Necromechanic, Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Doesn't Cawl have to take the Mars trait?
Also. Start mixing Forge Worlds. Everyone is good at different stuff. Why not make 2-3 detachments of that different stuff to make the best use out of every Forgeworld:
Graia for Skitarii troop spam
Mars for Heavy support fire base
Lucius for Electro Priests
Stygies for dragoons and such
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I REALLY don'y buy the hype for the Servitor Stratagem. If your opponent know you have them, he'll either kill them in 1 turn or won't touch them until he can. Seems bad.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Doesn't Cawl have to take the Mars trait?
Also. Start mixing Forge Worlds. Everyone is good at different stuff. Why not make 2-3 detachments of that different stuff to make the best use out of every Forgeworld:
Graia for Skitarii troop spam
Mars for Heavy support fire base
Lucius for Electro Priests
Stygies for dragoons and such
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I REALLY don'y buy the hype for the Servitor Stratagem. If your opponent know you have them, he'll either kill them in 1 turn or won't touch them until he can. Seems bad.
Does he? I imagine he can take the Mars trait or one of the Adeptus Mechanicus traits.
I would not take too many different Forge Worlds because you cannot share repairs. That is why most of the lists I am thinking about are made up of Mars or S8 detachments.
Heavy Support - 986 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
4x Kastelan Robots - Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Total: 1974 points 8 Command Points
It's as you recommended, but with S8 Vanguard; the -1 to hit is better than 6+ FNP in all cases but CC.
Well, you can deploy your Kataphrons in a pocket because they can move and shoot. But let's say your opponent tries to kill them on turn one. If he fails, you just won the game because you paid 3 CP for an additional round of shooting. He will likely never again have a better chance to kill them, and he failed. That is why I think it's really broken.
I think if you bring dragoons, you really want to be bringing them in fat stacks. Singles means you don't get the most out of that amazing +2 to hit in combat strategem. A fat stack of dragoons maximizes their effectiveness in combat. Nothing gets more from that skitari strategem than dragoons. With the strategem, each dragoon averages 5.5 hits off of 3 swings.
Also, I really don't care about repairing as the detachments I plan on using have no vehicles apart from Mars and Stygies maybe. Lucius is just electropriests
Wulfey wrote: I think if you bring dragoons, you really want to be bringing them in fat stacks. Singles means you don't get the most out of that amazing +2 to hit in combat strategem. A fat stack of dragoons maximizes their effectiveness in combat. Nothing gets more from that skitari strategem than dragoons. With the strategem, each dragoon averages 5.5 hits off of 3 swings.
That stratagem only works in the shooting phase. =\
takonite wrote: Is that youtube guy what counts as a warhammer 40k reviewer?
It looked like his first time opening the book was on camera, seemed to gloss over most things and just whined a lot,
How can I sign up to sound uninformed and get free stuff too?
He doesn't usually do reviews. It was probably a condition for getting the codex in advance. He does good battle reports though.
Use 1 cp and deep strike your 20x lucius fulgurite priests, give their lucius HQ Solar Flare; warlord trait Prime Hermeticon on your Lucius HQ. Use 1 CP and make robots auto switch to protector protocol, then finally use 2 CP to make your shooter kastellan robots do mortal wounds, with Cawl behind them. Finally, have canticle of the electromancer on that detachment. 4 out of 6 CPs gone, but all combined together, that is potentially a *lot* of deep striking and mortal wounds.
schmeeb wrote: Use 1 cp and deep strike your 20x lucius fulgurite priests, give their lucius HQ Solar Flare; warlord trait Prime Hermeticon on your Lucius HQ. Use 1 CP and make robots auto switch to protector protocol, then finally use 2 CP to make your shooter kastellan robots do mortal wounds, with Cawl behind them. Finally, have canticle of the electromancer on that detachment. 4 out of 6 CPs gone, but all combined together, that is potentially a *lot* of deep striking and mortal wounds.
Deep-striking a unit of 20 Fulgurites seems extremely risky, since we don't get to reroll charges, and they're useless if the opponent screens effectively.
No, smarter way is to do what we've been doing with new tricks. Mars artillery detachment combined with S8 or Graia screen. I prefer S8 with Ironstriders because they essentially have a copy of Raven Guard chapter tactic and stratagem. (Hold onto that Ballistarii unit during deployment and slip it in if they don't disperse their deployment. -2 to hit makes it incredibly hard to kill.)
schmeeb wrote: Use 1 cp and deep strike your 20x lucius fulgurite priests, give their lucius HQ Solar Flare; warlord trait Prime Hermeticon on your Lucius HQ. Use 1 CP and make robots auto switch to protector protocol, then finally use 2 CP to make your shooter kastellan robots do mortal wounds, with Cawl behind them. Finally, have canticle of the electromancer on that detachment. 4 out of 6 CPs gone, but all combined together, that is potentially a *lot* of deep striking and mortal wounds.
Deep-striking a unit of 20 Fulgurites seems extremely risky, since we don't get to reroll charges, and they're useless if the opponent screens effectively.
No, smarter way is to do what we've been doing with new tricks. Mars artillery detachment combined with S8 or Graia screen. I prefer S8 with Ironstriders because they essentially have a copy of Raven Guard chapter tactic and stratagem. (Hold onto that Ballistarii unit during deployment and slip it in if they don't disperse their deployment. -2 to hit makes it incredibly hard to kill.)
Oh yeah you're right, that -2 is pretty awesome on the dragoons.
You're also right about it being risky - use 2 more command points and spit them into 10 5 5 priests for more voltagheist field + electro canticle rolls too? Or just 10 and 10, and use last command point for charge reroll for the 70%~ successful charge? I find the idea of mass electro priests so awesome. Lol.
Iago40k wrote: And what is the exaxt wording on stygis? Can they infiltrate or scout?
It's the Raven Guard wording, but better since it's any unit:
1 CP - Clandestine Infiltration
Stygies VIII Stratagem
Use this stratagem during deployment. You can set up a Stygies VIII unit from your army in ambush instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit is revealed--set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
Lucius is better for Electropriests because they will always be within 12''. And if you don't roll First turn, you get f'd and have to deepstrike into your opponents turn.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Lucius is better for Electropriests because they will always be within 12''. And if you don't roll First turn, you get f'd and have to deepstrike into your opponents turn.
Lucius is definitely better to deep strike units that are fragile and don't need to move before attacking. Stygies is just great for screens because it gives you the best durability buff and you get the option of a deep strike with a move/advance. (Again, Ballistarii weapons are cognis and let you advance and shoot!)
If you're playing against Guard, Mortars and Basilisks are often positioned directly behind cover. If you get behind these units, the other units in your opponent's armies can't shoot back at you.
Which reminds me, I need to do an analysis of what unit size and armament is ideal for killing enemy artillery.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Lucius is better for Electropriests because they will always be within 12''. And if you don't roll First turn, you get f'd and have to deepstrike into your opponents turn.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Lucius is better for Electropriests because they will always be within 12''. And if you don't roll First turn, you get f'd and have to deepstrike into your opponents turn.
Shocked a TPD can't be an archmagos for 3cp. I thought that was nailed on.
Don't really get why Heavy Arc Rifles went from 18 down to 8, but torsion cannons are still 22. I guess Torsion cannons are just half range lascannons and lascannons are 25.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Lucius is better for Electropriests because they will always be within 12''. And if you don't roll First turn, you get f'd and have to deepstrike into your opponents turn.
Changed pts, rules, stats, added the new codex stuff. Correct any mistakes I might have made.
Now go and test stuffs
Awesome thanks !
A little mistake on the Fulgurites though, is it 17 or 16 points each ? You say 16 in the sheet, but 17 in its header
Changed in header, forgot the other parts. Fixed
Automatically Appended Next Post: Review of the Forge World goodies:
Mars:
Might as well be called "you get Cawl and a cool stratagem". The Dogma only is 2 chances to get Shroudpsalm pretty much. All other canticles are pretty much meaningless for a stand and shoot army.
The Stratagem + instachange = preeeeeeetty good alpha strike.
OK Warlord trait but nothing to write home about.
Terrible artifact. Default ones are all better.... wtf why
Great
Graia :
Not bad trait. This seems the goto for Skitarii troop spam. Which... with the points drops and this dogma doesn't seem awful to be honest.
50/50 to negate powers stratagem. Not bad for denying Magnus if he rolls the 2D6 smite, which can't be denied any other way.
Warlord trait isn't awful either.
Artifact seems good. Can't argue with 1 CP Worth trying
Metallica :
Trait sucks
Stratagem blows
Warlord trait is good... if you're losing.
OK artifact, but not even close to worth to take this garbage Forge World.
Barf
Lucius :
Not bad trait, depends on the enemy.
Best stratagem we have, unlocks so many more list building posibilities and removes our main weaknesses: being slow, durability. Deep striking Corps priests = preeeeeetty good.
Warlord trait - one of the worst in the game.
Artifact seems like one of the best. Great utility.
Great
Agripinaa:
Good trait if you're already losing.
Stratagem feels like a red hering. Just like Necrons, a competant player will kill 1 unit at a time and this stratagem will almost never be used. Especially not to full effect.
Trash Warlord trait.
The Artifact is actually situationally really good.
Meh
Stygies VIII:
God tier trait. Can't argue with that. Dragoons with -2 to hit(and now with AP1) seem preeeeeetty good. Orks can't even shoot them lol.
Stratagem seems good at first glance, but then you realise that if you don't get turn 1 - you're kinda screwed.... Kinda. It can help protect against deep strikes... Really hard to judge, but one this is for sure - this is not the way to deep strike Electro Priests. The trait is useless to them as they are 12'' or just melee range.
Warlord trait is trash.
Artifact seems bad as you don't really want to stay in melee the entire game with your Warlord.
Great
Ryza :
Trait doesn't help at all. Your dudes are already good at damage, they need mobility and survivability.
Stratagem seems great on Destroyers. That + the +1 to hit stratagem is amazing damage
Warlord trait is ok.
Artifact is nothing to write home about.
Meh
I think I will be staying Mars with mr Cawl, robots, Onagers, standard stuff. Other dogmas are cool but Cawl is just so good with robots and I want robots.
Stygies deep striking is great for charging units, or as relates to Electropriests: You can gamble on getting in a horde of Fulgurites. If it pays off, even if they killed a screen they've now activated their 3++. The downside to the gamble is obvious enough.
You could also use it on fist Kastellans if you really wanted to go all-in.
Edit: I think this stratagem will really come into it's own with Cyraxus, when our melee options open up further.
How is Stygies great for charging. If you don't get turn 1 - you have to deepstrike them BEFORE your opponent's turn. If you get first all the time - amazing. But it is a HUGE gamble. Especially as we'll usually have to go MSU and Onagers are a whole drop for 140 pts
rvd1ofakind wrote: How is Stygies great for charging. If you don't get turn 1 - you have to deepstrike them BEFORE your opponent's turn. If you get first all the time - amazing. But it is a HUGE gamble. Especially as we'll usually have to go MSU and Onagers are a whole drop for 140 pts
I did say "The downside to the gamble is obvious enough".
It's, relative to Lucius, great for charging units because you can move first. The cost is it's, whilst still good for enhancing movement, more dubious for an alpha strike.
rvd1ofakind wrote: How is Stygies great for charging. If you don't get turn 1 - you have to deepstrike them BEFORE your opponent's turn. If you get first all the time - amazing. But it is a HUGE gamble.
This. also interesting tid bit i'll have to double check but i think the whole "losing if you don't have any models on the table happens after turn 1 begins so you could put your whole army in deep strike mode...
anywho this is what i'll be running at 1500
Patrol Detatchment
HQ Grand master 162
Elite
4 Paladins
Troops
10x grey knights 3+ version
Spearhead
HQ Tech Priest 52
Heavy Support
4x kastelans
Neutronager
Neutronager
Auxillia
Vindicare
total: 1495ish
will probably end up selling most of my terminators and replacing that vindicare and paladin squad with two more squads of 10 grey knights or something like that. might have to drop the grand master down to a brotherhood champion.
Actually something I'm kinda curious about: Is there any decent way to make your enginseer fill more of an actual role beyond "stand next to a Dunecrawler" through relics or warlord traits?
changemod wrote: Actually something I'm kinda curious about: Is there any decent way to make your enginseer fill more of an actual role beyond "stand next to a Dunecrawler" through relics or warlord traits?
i mean one of the generic warlord traits is literally "re roll the canticles" beyond that, you can give him a better axe. personally though i'm just using grey knights as secutors making the Grand master my warlord and using a half and half split of Mechanicus for heavy support and grey knights for front line combat.
So the only good artifacts seem to be:
Autocaduceus - aka the healing one
The Solar Flare - the Lucius Teleport one
The Eye of Xi-Lexum - vs Chaos Vehicles (so not really all that good :p)
And the only good Warlord Traits:
1 - get more CP 4 - repair +1
6 - re-roll to hit in combat (situational)
Mars - better deployment? Not too big on this one
Metallica - if you're already losing
rvd1ofakind wrote: So the only good artifacts seem to be:
Autocaduceus - aka the healing one
The Solar Flare - the Lucius Teleport one
The Eye of Xi-Lexum - vs Chaos Vehicles (so not really all that good :p)
And the only good Warlord Traits:
1 - get more CP 4 - repair +1
6 - re-roll to hit in combat (situational)
Mars - better deployment? Not too big on this one
Metallica - if you're already losing
So yeah, Enginseer is just a repair bot
To be fair, the Canticles re-roll trait is basically the Mars dogma, if all you care about is getting Shroudpsalm. This would actually be a reasonable pick for Mars with Cawl if you're not hurting for CP (in which case you should always take the one that gets you more CP). You go from a 75% chance of getting Shroudpsalm to an 87.5% chance. You expect to keep it up all game with perhaps one use of the canticle-change stratagem.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can't give that to Cawl though. He always has the +3'' to auras
I don't have the codex, but even if true then you can just make an Enginseer your warlord. This is a pretty standard approach for lots of armies with special characters who get stuck with undesirable warlord traits.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You really don't want more than Cawl as HQ in your Mars detachment. It is pretty pointless. Whatever the other HQ does, Cawl does better
So throw the Mars Enginseer into a detachment where you don't care about dogmas. Maybe you're also running a Lucius detachment for deep-striking electro-priests. You don't care about their HQ and you don't care about their trait since electro-priests don't get an armor save.
Iago40k wrote: So mars gunline, stygis screen and lucius drop. Got it ^^
Yup. Though honestly, the first two are vital, the Lucius option is not, imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: How is Stygies great for charging. If you don't get turn 1 - you have to deepstrike them BEFORE your opponent's turn. If you get first all the time - amazing. But it is a HUGE gamble. Especially as we'll usually have to go MSU and Onagers are a whole drop for 140 pts
I don't have any books in front of me like I usually do, but what is the timing on that strategem? Do you know who is going first before you use it? If so, you can just use the Fulgurites as a screen.
You have to deepstrike at the start of the first battle round. But you select units for deepstrike during deployment (when you don't know who will go first)
rvd1ofakind wrote: Why Mars batallion? Seems pointless Better go Graia or Stygies IMO
Hmm, that's a pretty solid point, the main negative I guess would be the Enginseers would basically be standing around doing nothing instead of repairing. Not sure if that is worth trading Cawl retolls on offense for the (strong) -1 to be hit at range.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You have to deepstrike at the start of the first battle round. But you select units for deepstrike during deployment (when you don't know who will go first)
Why don't you think Lucius is vital?
Because we can't commit enough to it and we don't have enough potent units to maximize the strategy. At best we can throw out a suicide unit to disrupt the opponent, but our strength is our gunline. We can't support Deep Striking like some armies can. We have what? Corpuscarii that seem viable due to thier volume of fire and what else? Not much strikes me as potent enough to Deep Strike.
As for the reserving before knowing, we can just deploy them safely if we go second. Being able to reliably charge with a fat unit of Fulgurites is pretty great and seems worth the gamble. And because it is Stygies, if we do have to put them near our gunline, they will be harder to shift at range due to the -1 to-hit.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You have to deepstrike at the start of the first battle round. But you select units for deepstrike during deployment (when you don't know who will go first)
Why don't you think Lucius is vital?
Because we can't commit enough to it and we don't have enough potent units to maximize the strategy. At best we can throw out a suicide unit to disrupt the opponent, but our strength is our gunline. We can't support Deep Striking like some armies can. We have what? Corpuscarii that seem viable due to thier volume of fire and what else? Not much strikes me as potent enough to Deep Strike.
As for the reserving before knowing, we can just deploy them safely if we go second. Being able to reliably charge with a fat unit of Fulgurites is pretty great and seems worth the gamble. And because it is Stygies, if we do have to put them near our gunline, they will be harder to shift at range due to the -1 to-hit.
I mean, we can just use more priests 45 deepstriking priests seems enough to warrant Lucius
PS: now I kinda regret buying Enginseers as I can just use Datasmith models instead since they're useless(hyperbole!!!) now
I would go Outrider with Stygies and do four Dragoons and an Enginseer and probably shift the shooty priests to two 20-man units to save CP. Use spare points to get another robot. I think 6 will be the sweet spot so we can erase large threats quickly.
Rangers just aren't worth the investment just to get 2CP extra, imo.
Rangers at 8 points are pretty decent for cheap bodies. 40 points msu, same as cultists for CSM but a bit tougher. Not on guard infantry level but what is.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Rangers are now 8 pts. I think they're worth for screening, obsec and CP Also if I do 2 20-man units, I need 1 more elite for vanguard.
so rangers as default now over vanguard? just with basic weapons or are paying for arc rifles etc going to be worth it now? I've got 5 rangers and 15 vanguard currently as built.
I'd see stygies more as board control think of it as massively increasing your deployzone vs your opponents.
The lucian deepstrike is more waiting for an opportunity to alpha strike something, stygies is more I'm going to gum up the board and camp objectives so that my gunline can keep moving up the field
Well they do similar damage per point in Rapid Fire range. (which is just 3'' less than Vanguard) and are more survivable per point and get more CP per point. Aka, I don't know We'll see
Also we should get more pts reductions in the FAQ if the rumors are true.
Can someone who owns a Knight please let me know the measurements for the head?
I'm working on a conversion at the moment, and I was considering buying one of the forgeworld knight heads (or a regular one from a bitz store) but I wanted to know the size first as I'm worried it might be too big.
Height and width of the head is all I need, preferably in mm, thankyou
4CP Used, 1CP leftover (mostly for re-rolling a charge die for the Fulgurites)
I am not sure I want to commit to the Fulgurites. At all. But I do love the idea of them getting off a first turn charge somewhat reliably... provided I go first. Otherwise, they are kinda stuck. The Dragoons are a no-brainer. -2 to-hit is silly good for a screening unit, meaning they aren't getting shot off the board and the enemy must shift them in combat, which is what we want generally. And holy crap, they suck less in combat now too! Stygies Enginseer just parks near Cawl and helps repair stuff. The Mars component is straight-forward. One round of Wrathbots, triple Onagers to help knock out units with Fly and to put the hurt on armor. They do what they do and can now spread out a bit more thanks to the enlarged Aura. I will hope for Shroudpsalm for Mars, because it suits them best, but the +1S in CC or the re-roll 1's in fight phase would help the Fulgurites.
Mars Battalion Build w/ Stygies
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion +3CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Techpriest Enginseer
Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
[52]
7 CP Total
1 for Infiltration - 6 remaining to do Wrath a lot, lol
Same premise as the other list, but differently built. Possibly better.
Still hashing over some stuff.
Did Fulgurites REALLY go up a 1ppm? REALLY GW?! And nothing else really changed in points.
Also, Reece/Reecius or whatever - the guy who was like "just wait" - was so full of it. This is better than the Index, but worse than most other Codices hands down. Bleh. At least we got Wrathbots to help mitigate crap like Primarchs, I guess.
Also we should get more pts reductions in the FAQ if the rumors are true.
YES PLEASE.
Seriously, I have two boxes of unopened Kataphrons. GW, please give me a reason to run those gorgeous models.
Vanguard need to be 8ppm too and even then they don't compare well to similar infantry, but I would take it. I'd much rather run those than Rangers (because I don't want to paint any more effing Rangers).
I hope nothing goes up. We can't afford to that, as it just shifts points and is a wash. We need point drops across the board to be even remotely competitive and not just a flavor of Imperial Soup (and the worst flavor, too!).
4CP Used, 1CP leftover (mostly for re-rolling a charge die for the Fulgurites)
I am not sure I want to commit to the Fulgurites. At all. But I do love the idea of them getting off a first turn charge somewhat reliably... provided I go first. Otherwise, they are kinda stuck. The Dragoons are a no-brainer. -2 to-hit is silly good for a screening unit, meaning they aren't getting shot off the board and the enemy must shift them in combat, which is what we want generally. And holy crap, they suck less in combat now too! Stygies Enginseer just parks near Cawl and helps repair stuff. The Mars component is straight-forward. One round of Wrathbots, triple Onagers to help knock out units with Fly and to put the hurt on armor. They do what they do and can now spread out a bit more thanks to the enlarged Aura. I will hope for Shroudpsalm for Mars, because it suits them best, but the +1S in CC or the re-roll 1's in fight phase would help the Fulgurites.
Mars Battalion Build w/ Stygies
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion +3CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Techpriest Enginseer
Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
[52]
7 CP Total
1 for Infiltration - 6 remaining to do Wrath a lot, lol
Same premise as the other list, but differently built. Possibly better.
Still hashing over some stuff.
Did Fulgurites REALLY go up a 1ppm? REALLY GW?! And nothing else really changed in points.
Also, Reece/Reecius or whatever - the guy who was like "just wait" - was so full of it. This is better than the Index, but worse than most other Codices hands down. Bleh. At least we got Wrathbots to help mitigate crap like Primarchs, I guess.
Also we should get more pts reductions in the FAQ if the rumors are true.
YES PLEASE.
Seriously, I have two boxes of unopened Kataphrons. GW, please give me a reason to run those gorgeous models.
Vanguard need to be 8ppm too and even then they don't compare well to similar infantry, but I would take it. I'd much rather run those than Rangers (because I don't want to paint any more effing Rangers).
Priests probably got a point increase because they're significantly better now that they have access to two different methods of instantly appearing wherever they want on the board. Plus bonus attaks and all the other stuff that seems to have been designed to make priests pretty powerful.
Jaynen wrote:Niiru there is a non games workshop company that makes some conversion heads also that might have sizes?
Only non-GW (and non-FW) company I've found with an imperial knight head is the wolf head made by someone on shapeways... but they don't give sizes, and the wolf head is a weird shape anyway so the dimensions wouldn't help.
Can't find any other companies, at least not by googling. All the usual suspects (kromlech, spellcrow, etc) don't seem to do anything.
I hope nothing goes up. We can't afford to that, as it just shifts points and is a wash. We need point drops across the board to be even remotely competitive and not just a flavor of Imperial Soup (and the worst flavor, too!).
I really doubt that stuff will go up.... That's just asking for a riot
Also, because Corpuscarii are a thing... even if I think it a bit of a gimmick:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead +1 CP
HQ: Cawl [250]
Heavy: (6) Kastellan Robots (Wrath of Mars & Binharic) Triple Phosphor [660]
Onager Dunecrawler Neutron & CHS, CHS [145]
Onager Dunecrawler Neutron & CHS, CHS [145]
[1200]
Lucius Vanguard +1 CP
HQ: Techpriest Enginseer [52]
Elites: (12) Corpuscarii (Teleport) [168]
(12) Corpuscarii (Teleport) [168]
(11) Corpuscarii (Teleport) [154]
[542]
Stygies VIII Outrider +1 CP
HQ: Techpriest Enginseer [52]
Fast Attack: Sydonian Dragoon Lance [68]
Sydonian Dragoon Lance [68]
Sydonian Dragoon Lance [68]
[256]
[1998]
The list delivers 35 via Deep Strike while still bringing a lot of pain elsewhere. Not sure it will be that useful. Also... painting up 35 Corpuscarii sounds terrible given how fragile I am sure they are. But they are definitely the cooler looking of the two Priests. Only major issue the list has is that it uses up all its CP in strategems. C'est la vie.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here's the damage comparison:
1) Shooty priests
2) shooty priests + they make the charge
3) Dakkastelans in protocol with Cawl
I mean, either I made a mistake in math or this is pretty broken
I assume T is toughness of target and W is wounds of target... why does the Strength of the target matter though? and why the I5 in the middle there? Unless S is shots, but that still doesn't work... Just a bit confused what this is meant to represent.
Not sure why you think this is wrong though.
Row 1 - Priests shooting is better than or similar to kastellan shooting
Row 2 - Priests that manage to shoot and make a charge in one turn do the most damage
This seems exactly right?
Kastellans will survive longer, and can put out their shots turn after turn without any issue because of the long range.
Priests need to burn CP in order to do any shooting or attacking in the first couple turns of the game (deepstriking), and can easily fail their charge (unless they burn even more CP) leaving them exposed to being pretty easily killed off causing no wounds at all. And if they do manage to kill the unit you first point them at, they may well then be out of range for another turn before they move somewhere where they can shoot again.
So, Dakkastelans do constant reliable damage for all 6 turns of a game. Priests are capable of doing more damage, but likely only for 2 or 3 turns of a game, and thats only if they survive. Classic glass cannons.
You also haven't put points costs into the equation, which is the most important thing.
My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
Suzuteo wrote: My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
T5 is hard to do a lot of wounds too that quickly. you need something like lascannons to do it. or autocannons. long range anti tank weapons. of course if the opponent is playing admech he can just point the dakkastelans and point click erase pretty much. or a lucky onager blast.
And this is damage divided by points. So yes, no buff priests are more than twice better than Dakkastelans with Prot and Cawl against hordes
Ahh, save and invulnerable, that makes sense (though a key might have been handy, S and I are still strength and initiative to old players like me lmao)
Also saying it's damage by points as the result would have been handy to start with, as I had assumed it was just the standard "number of dead models". If it's wounds inflicted, then there was no need to have the wounds characteristic of the target on there, as this test has no multi-damage weapons.
Anyway though, still looks right to me. Consistent and reliable damage, vs big damage big risk.
Edit: Consistent and reliable long ranged damage, vs big damage big risk at short range. The ranges matter, as long ranged killiness is generally almost always better. Especially as you would also get the bonus of enemies having -1 to his the robots, while the priests will just be big fat targets.
Well yeah, this is a big spreadsheet, so wounds matter with other units like Onagers
Why I want to try priests: deepstrike + shooting = not that risky.(There are plenty of peopl saying deepstrike + charge which is 10 times more risky). And the damage output is INSANE. I think at least 1 drop of them is worth it. I'll try to go full reta--I mean servitor with them and bring 3 to my test game.
And again, you can plonk them down whenever you want (within the 3 turn limit)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well yeah, this is a big spreadsheet, so wounds matter with other units like Onagers
Why I want to try priests: deepstrike + shooting = not that risky. And the damage output is INSANE. I think at least 1 drop of them is worth it. I'll try to go full reta--I mean servitor with them and bring 3 to my test game.
Oh I agree, it's a powerful tactic, I'm not saying it's not. But I just meant it's not "broken" compared to dakkabots like you seemed to say. Other armies have similar options, where they can throw out a huge alpha strike unit to do a bunch of damage, in the knowledge that it'll likely die next turn. The admech codex is looking pretty balanced to be honest, lots of nice options (relative to the limited model line, that is).
If GW released some new models for it, or FW cyraxis comes out, then AdMech will be in a very good place as far as running fun and varied armies.
Its forgeworld, so probably. Depends on the tournament, some of them put in various restrictions, but as far as I recall most of the official tournaments count FW as standard units these days.
Suzuteo wrote: My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
I think the recycling of Karaphron's is extremely army build dependant though.
If you run them as the 6 man squad, you are having to spend 3 CP to bring them back due to them then being PL 20. Most lists i've seen so far here seem to be aiming more towards 6 robots and Cawl for a massive 910/2000 points. As such, i think you'd be very lucky to have the 3 CP spare to revive them. (as base, the 6 man unit is 420 points.)
Everything seems to be in the "dakkabot" basket. If they get hit hard from deep-strike there doesn't seem to be a great deal left to win the game. Most armies can work around a failed alpha strike, but, i'm not sure this setup would - especially if there is a good deep strike beta force. Terrain could also screw over the robots, if you uses the stratagem to change protocols.
Honestly I plan to do Lucius because Deep Strike potential makes Skitarii much better for how I wish to use them on top of the minor increase in durability. Use Rangers with Arqs and Dragoons to screen my Onagers and strike Vanguard in with Plasma. Similar to how I wanted in 7th but power creep and all that.
Niiru I was thinking of wargame exclusive but it appears those were unique Kastelan heads not knight specific.
What about with Stygies what would you "deepstrike" or really advanced deploy to hold the board for a couple turns while the rest of your army was able to move up. The issue with moving up is of course they can then deep strike in behind you once there is enough space unless you literally bubble around your whole army
Jaynen wrote: Niiru I was thinking of wargame exclusive but it appears those were unique Kastelan heads not knight specific.
What about with Stygies what would you "deepstrike" or really advanced deploy to hold the board for a couple turns while the rest of your army was able to move up. The issue with moving up is of course they can then deep strike in behind you once there is enough space unless you literally bubble around your whole army
Ahh yeh I know those heads, but they sit on top of a model, I needed one that goes in front of the neck... if that makes sense lol. But I found someone to give me the sizes, and it seems promising that it will fit.
I think the recycling of Karaphron's is extremely army build dependant though.
If you run them as the 6 man squad, you are having to spend 3 CP to bring them back due to them then being PL 20. Most lists i've seen so far here seem to be aiming more towards 6 robots and Cawl for a massive 910/2000 points. As such, i think you'd be very lucky to have the 3 CP spare to revive them. (as base, the 6 man unit is 420 points.)
Everything seems to be in the "dakkabot" basket. If they get hit hard from deep-strike there doesn't seem to be a great deal left to win the game. Most armies can work around a failed alpha strike, but, i'm not sure this setup would - especially if there is a good deep strike beta force. Terrain could also screw over the robots, if you uses the stratagem to change protocols.
The bigger the unit is, the more viable the strategy is.
And yes, you wouldn't be able to do the Kastelan strategy as well as Mars. I posted a list a few pages back. I think it only had two. If any metaphor is apt though, consider the Destroyers to be like multiple Scion command squads, with Culverins and Grav instead of Plasma Guns and Meltas.
I still think 6 Kastelans is too much, though it is true that the alpha strike is tempting. I definitely think dropping the Datasmith in favor of just committing to rooting your Kastelans in a good spot is a good idea though. 36" is a lot of range. The only stuff that outranges you won't be able to out-trade Crawlers.
I think the recycling of Karaphron's is extremely army build dependant though.
If you run them as the 6 man squad, you are having to spend 3 CP to bring them back due to them then being PL 20. Most lists i've seen so far here seem to be aiming more towards 6 robots and Cawl for a massive 910/2000 points. As such, i think you'd be very lucky to have the 3 CP spare to revive them. (as base, the 6 man unit is 420 points.)
Everything seems to be in the "dakkabot" basket. If they get hit hard from deep-strike there doesn't seem to be a great deal left to win the game. Most armies can work around a failed alpha strike, but, i'm not sure this setup would - especially if there is a good deep strike beta force. Terrain could also screw over the robots, if you uses the stratagem to change protocols.
The bigger the unit is, the more viable the strategy is.
And yes, you wouldn't be able to do the Kastelan strategy as well as Mars. I posted a list a few pages back. I think it only had two. If any metaphor is apt though, consider the Destroyers to be like multiple Scion command squads, with Culverins and Grav instead of Plasma Guns and Meltas.
I still think 6 Kastelans is too much, though it is true that the alpha strike is tempting. I definitely think dropping the Datasmith in favor of just committing to rooting your Kastelans in a good spot is a good idea though. 36" is a lot of range. The only stuff that outranges you won't be able to out-trade Crawlers.
I was just looking for the height and the width of the head/faceplate, preferably in mm
I was just looking for the height and the width of the head/faceplate, preferably in mm
The face plates (the helmet-looking things) are a hair over 1/2 inch at its widest point and the longest of them is 5/6s of an inch long.
The Mechanicum Knight head I posted is significantly larger (because it replaces the "hood" of the Imperial Knight as well). 3/4 inch at its widest points and 1 and 1/8 inches long. It is joined to the body at the back by a circular area framed by a 3/8 inch square.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
Winters didn't get much right in his review except when he was just reading directly from the codex.
I'm looking at the page right now, and Vanguard are 9, Rangers are 8.
( I had included a blurry screenshot of the points page, but I'm learning that I shouldn't post it here! Do be aware if you pause the winters video at the correct time, you can see all the points except for melee weapons )
Suzuteo wrote: Okay. And what is the Heavy Arc Rifle cost? I heard Breachers got another attack too?
Heavy Arc Rifle is now 8 pts (whether thats on purpose, or they forgot the "1" in the number "18" we'll never know).
Cognis Heavy Stubbers appear to be 5 pts now (down from 8), but that's the one entry that always seems to have a glare or fuzzy on the video, and 5's look a lot like 8s.
I was just looking for the height and the width of the head/faceplate, preferably in mm
The face plates (the helmet-looking things) are a hair over 1/2 inch at its widest point and the longest of them is 5/6s of an inch long.
The Mechanicum Knight head I posted is significantly larger (because it replaces the "hood" of the Imperial Knight as well). 3/4 inch at its widest points and 1 and 1/8 inches long. It is joined to the body at the back by a circular area framed by a 3/8 inch square.
Ok cool, I think that should be fine then, I may grab one of the FW heads and give it a go, it might be a *little* big but that might actually look cool. Thanks!
casvalremdeikun wrote: Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?
Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).
Jezzails still seem weak compared to Trans Arq's. Lower strength means you're not wounding on 3's against T5 characters, or 2's against weaker t3 pyskers or commissars. You also lose the chance for mortal wounds, and extra damage, at less than half range. For only... 30ish pts cheaper than a double ranger sniper squad, you'd probably be better off going snipers. This was true in the index, and is even truer now with the points reduction on ranger squads (10 pts off the same sniper unit you were already bringing)
I still think many folks will continue to run a 5 man unit of x2 trans arq rangers depending on if their primary opponent brings a lot of character psykers or reroll machines (4-5W target models or less). Those of us who face armies only with beefy opposing characters that wound require 2-3 turns of sniper fire to maybe kill will probably continue not bringing them.
Stick the rangers into a Stygies detachment, park em in cover, and they get to take advantage of not only a -1 to hit them, but also the +1 cover bonus. Give them a little bit more survivability in case your opponent panics as you remove a character on T1.
Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?
Actually, the question now is: Is there any reason to take Vanguard? Rangers are 1 point cheaper and last just as long. (It's just like how Servitors are the cheapest Elite at 13 points.)
Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).
Are Rangers not 25mm and T3 1W 4+ 6++? Oh. You expect them to do something other than die?!
Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?
Actually, the question now is: Is there any reason to take Vanguard? Rangers are 1 point cheaper and last just as long. (It's just like how Servitors are the cheapest Elite at 13 points.)
Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).
Are Rangers not 25mm and T3 1W 4+ 6++? Oh. You expect them to do something other than die?!
I'm still bigger on the vanguard than the Rangers. Sure, they're 1 pt more expensive, but when it comes to "maybe doing a thing" when getting deepstriked, they're leaps and bounds better than the rangers. If any survive, they soften the opponent up for a countercharge of Dragoons, priests, rusts, whatever you brought.
The overwatch against a deepstriking army alone is probably enough to keep me favoring them over the rangers.
The fact that if my opponent isn't a big deepstriker, I can still advance and shoot while I run to cover/objectives/aura, means that even on the shittiest times for them, they can still possibly contribute something.
5 pts for "maybe something". 3 units of vanguard over rangers costs you 15 extra points. 15 points total for 3 units of "maybe something" that are better in pretty much all stages of bubblewrap. Nothing really else to do with those 15 pts in most lists that would really help rangers be nearly as useful.
I dunno, still think rangers outside of x2 trans arq are bunk, even at 5 pts cheaper per unit.
Wait. What? Why do you think that? How are you deploying your Vanguard? Mine are 9" in front of my artillery, and my Dragoon screen no more than 18" in front of them. The Vanguard shoot once and move 6" backward to the 3" line. Rangers aren't going to be much worse at this. In fact, 30" range probably means they will get to shoot twice before running back to the 3" line; the second time, perhaps Rapid Fire.
Vanguard and Rangers both aren't expected to deal any damage at all during Overwatch. (The average is <1 for most melee units, such as Berzerkers and Boyz.) In fact, they aren't expected to do ANYTHING AT ALL except stand there and make sure the enemy has to walk 18" to 27" to CC me. They are just there to satisfy requirements.
In light of this, saving 30 points in a Brigade to go into your artillery (which wins you the game) is more important than having some guy who might deal one or two extra damage when you're about to lose horribly.
Normally I deploy in a castle. Artillary core at the back, Dragoons in the next row, and vangaurd in the front line.
If someones deepstriking in 9.1" away and unloading on something, I'd rather they blast the cheap vanguard to bits (or be forced to charge into their overwatch). I lose less with them (both in points and in follow up countercharge effectiveness) having the vanguard die before dragoons rather than the other way around.
Any opponent I've had dropping stuff in, is launching purestrains, or plasma hhooters, or da jumping big squads of Boyz, or other heavy hitters, which are really just wasting themselves killing vanguard, but that's the only target I leave for them (if I read your deployment layout correctly, you're leaving the dragoons to die to the deepstrikes, and countershooting with your very healthy troops)
Those vanguard teams that live (on the side the deep strike doesn't happen, or somehow live through), then go on to accomplish stuff, like threaten objectives, or continue to eat fire. the ones that survive are why I will pay the extra 5 pts per squad over the rangers. If my opponent happens to not have a healthy deep strike, I then get left with more effective units to go do stuff.
Replacing them with Rangers, they have the same survivability against the shooting, and if they die, they die, sure. But those that live then go on to not contribute as much as the more mobile vanguard, nor can they then really assist my dragoons or whathaveyous in a countercharge due to not having the -1T aura the vanguard put out.
Either way, my troops are there to fulfill unit requirements, and protect everything else against deepstrikes.
Rangers and Vanguard will die just the same, but Vanguard offer more if they live, and I'd rather lose them first than dragoons (which if I used the same way you're suggesting, would die to plasma or rough melee, leaving my rangers/vanguard there to try to actually kill things in minimum squad size, rather than the other way around).
casvalremdeikun wrote: Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?
Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).
Jezzails still seem weak compared to Trans Arq's. Lower strength means you're not wounding on 3's against T5 characters, or 2's against weaker t3 pyskers or commissars. You also lose the chance for mortal wounds, and extra damage, at less than half range. For only... 30ish pts cheaper than a double ranger sniper squad, you'd probably be better off going snipers. This was true in the index, and is even truer now with the points reduction on ranger squads (10 pts off the same sniper unit you were already bringing)
I still think many folks will continue to run a 5 man unit of x2 trans arq rangers depending on if their primary opponent brings a lot of character psykers or reroll machines (4-5W target models or less). Those of us who face armies only with beefy opposing characters that wound require 2-3 turns of sniper fire to maybe kill will probably continue not bringing them.
Stick the rangers into a Stygies detachment, park em in cover, and they get to take advantage of not only a -1 to hit them, but also the +1 cover bonus. Give them a little bit more survivability in case your opponent panics as you remove a character on T1.
That certainly works. I fully intended to use Stygies (my custom Forge World favors stealth and range. They even wear green cloaks!). I wasn't intending to use the Jezzails instead of the Arquebuses, I want to use them in addition to them. Especially with that -1 to hit from Stygies. Sticking them in cover and having them snipe at stuff while giving them a -2 to be hit and +1 for Cover would be nuts. But honestly, at that point I might just be better with a Ballistarii. And at that point I would be overcommitting to ranged. Taser Lance Dragoons with Stygies will be pretty nice, especially if Stygies can do the Raven Guard sneaky deployment since that doesn't prevent movement. That same Strategem will allow me to drop in a squad of Ruststalkers. It still saddens me incredibly that Sicarians don't get some sort of bonus to charge. They are such cool looking models, but their rules suck so bad.
Clay_Puppington wrote: Normally I deploy in a castle. Artillary core at the back, Dragoons in the next row, and vangaurd in the front line.
If someones deepstriking in 9.1" away and unloading on something, I'd rather they blast the cheap vanguard to bits (or be forced to charge into their overwatch). I lose less with them (both in points and in follow up countercharge effectiveness) having the vanguard die before dragoons rather than the other way around.
Any opponent I've had dropping stuff in, is launching purestrains, or plasma hhooters, or da jumping big squads of Boyz, or other heavy hitters, which are really just wasting themselves killing vanguard, but that's the only target I leave for them (if I read your deployment layout correctly, you're leaving the dragoons to die to the deepstrikes, and countershooting with your very healthy troops)
Those vanguard teams that live (on the side the deep strike doesn't happen, or somehow live through), then go on to accomplish stuff, like threaten objectives, or continue to eat fire. the ones that survive are why I will pay the extra 5 pts per squad over the rangers. If my opponent happens to not have a healthy deep strike, I then get left with more effective units to go do stuff.
Replacing them with Rangers, they have the same survivability against the shooting, and if they die, they die, sure. But those that live then go on to not contribute as much as the more mobile vanguard, nor can they then really assist my dragoons or whathaveyous in a countercharge due to not having the -1T aura the vanguard put out.
Either way, my troops are there to fulfill unit requirements, and protect everything else against deepstrikes.
Rangers and Vanguard will die just the same, but Vanguard offer more if they live, and I'd rather lose them first than dragoons (which if I used the same way you're suggesting, would die to plasma or rough melee, leaving my rangers/vanguard there to try to actually kill things in minimum squad size, rather than the other way around).
I would argue you are doing it wrong. I deploy screening units according to their ability to cover ground, not their durability or ersatz importance. If I put Vanguard out in front, they have to cover a larger area with a smaller body size and less movement. This makes them less capable of stopping threats that are much faster than they are. Same goes for Electro-Priests: I would keep them closer so that they can act more with more timeliness.
If my opponent wants to shoot my Dragoons, they are free to do so. That's what they're for. If Vanguard were standing in their place, it would not change matters except that the Vanguard aren't as capable as Dragoons in intercepting things like Rhinoxes. Forcing them to disembark as far away from your artillery as possible is important.
The only time I castle is against something like Tau, in which case I make a huge box along the table edge with zero space for a Commander to stand. There's no point in using anything to screen against units that move so fast and fly.
Which is all cool until you have to play an objective game and 1 orc boy beats 6 dragoons as he has objective sercured :/
Either way, I think rangers are better than vanguard now as they offer more bodies for the price. They do very similar damage.
Also, I think Heavy Arc is a typo too, now that you mention it xDD
Well, your artillery should be clearing those objectives. But yes, I think it is safe to say that every army now will have at least a Battalion with 3 Rangers to access the 3 CP.
But here's something I've been tinkering with:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1122
HQ - 302 1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord: Necromechanic, Solar Atomizer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
Heavy Support - 286 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
Total: 1957 points 7 Command Points
This list is a prototype at 1957 points. I have been thinking of ways to minimize the number of dead points in my armies.
Note how there are two large detachments here. Mars for shooting and Stygies for durability. In the Mars detachment, Cawl and an Enginseer with Autocaduceus provide the repairs; in the Stygies, Cawl (who repairs all AdMech) and an Enginseer. I may try to find room for a Datasmith too. I divvied up my Crawlers according to my experience and Mathhammer. Icarus needs rerolls to make them effective against non-Flying, so they are an auto-include in the Mars list, as are the Kastelans. The Neutron Crawlers benefit more from the Stygies dogma since they usually do trades with other 48" artillery, such as shooting transports--Razorbacks, Rhinoxes, etc. 3x5 Rangers serve as bubblewrap for the Kastelans; they are in Mars simply to fill a requirement. In Stygies, 2x2 Dragoons act as a mobile screen, and 1x3 Lascannon Ballistarii for more anti-tank. These Ironstrider units are deployed last to exploit a potential Deep Strike into the enemy backline. I probably will do it with two units of Dragoons forming a "wedge" in front of the Ballistarii to force deepstrikers outside of the 12" radius for the Stygies dogma.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Not sure about Neutron without Cawl. Missing those shots without a re-roll feels reaaaaally bad
it's worked for me so far. and now we have a strategem that gives them +1(or is it +2 to hit) when they start with a 3+ to hit anyway. what really feels bad is rolling 1 for the shots.
Eek. That one I have been unsure about. I don't think simply adding a Knight has much value any more. Fact is, there are so many strong synergies that result from having a large amount of CP, so you would have to do the same with the Knights.
In essence, we're looking at something stupid like this:
Lord of War - 435 Knight Errant - Titanic Feet, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 516 Knight Warden - Titanic Feet, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Lord of War - 516 Knight Warden - Titanic Feet, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 1998 points 10 Command Points
Basically, two sacrificial Battalions to serve as a screen for melta and plasma troops early on. Graia for durability and the Mitre for +1 CP. All those HQs babysit the Knights while you spam Rotate Ion Shield, Knight of the Cog, and Machine Spirit Resurgent to your heart's content.
I also consider doing two full-dakka Knights, but I doubt that would get the value we need out of them. Getting into CC is the way to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Not sure about Neutron without Cawl. Missing those shots without a re-roll feels reaaaaally bad
Sure. But these are the trade-offs we are considering.
Lose 1 CP and one Enginseer's repair OR pay 52 points and lose one Enginseer's repair to replace -1 to hit at 12" on those Crawlers with Cawl rerolls.
Then again, I have 43 free points. If 9 get freed up, it's a no-brainer.
Do you guys think it will be worth it for one unit of Dakkastelans to skip Datasmith altogether and just use Bhinaric Override to turn into deathball turn 1? I could see it working out great, just have to position them in good spot.
Kandela wrote: Do you guys think it will be worth it for one unit of Dakkastelans to skip Datasmith altogether and just use Bhinaric Override to turn into deathball turn 1? I could see it working out great, just have to position them in good spot.
What you gain is 52 points to use somewhere else.
What you lose is 2CP, the data smith's combat ability which isnt terrible, and the ability to go back to aegis for late game moves. I rarely want to be stuck in place on turns 6 and 7
It depends what you're spending those 52 pts on. If it's just 5 vanguard, don't bother. If it means you can upgrade your Knight to a crusader then it might be worth it.
Well, your artillery should be clearing those objectives. But yes, I think it is safe to say that every army now will have at least a Battalion with 3 Rangers to access the 3 CP.
Eh. I'm not going that route currently. Wasting 202pt for 2CP isn't really worth it in my book.i would rather have more substance. Most of my lists have 5 or 6 CP, depending on build, which is enough to do the basics (Wrath, Deep Strikes, Binharic). And I still screen with 3-4 Stygies Dragoons so thie mediocre Skitarii aren't a big deal.
ObSec is great, but I can't see it being a big deal. I usually wind up on a few in deployment, so as long as I blast them off theirs and take a few strays I should be good. This has worked well so far, at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kandela wrote: Do you guys think it will be worth it for one unit of Dakkastelans to skip Datasmith altogether and just use Bhinaric Override to turn into deathball turn 1? I could see it working out great, just have to position them in good spot.
Most of my games I deploy them where they wind up staying all game. At this point I am heavily considering dropping the Datasmith, since usually all he does is swap to Protector and then repair. With the Enginseer and Binharic, I see no point unless I am tight on CP.
rvd1ofakind wrote: It is really annoying that we need at least 2 vehicles in every detachment or we'll feel bad about the useless Enginseer
i mean.... onagers and kastelans are both vehicles so....
Yeah, but you alwyas want them to be Mars :(
Sad sad
actually with the new auto switch protocol i'm thinking agrapinaa hitting on 5 means average of 10 dead marines from a squad of 4 kastelans so pretty much whole squads of marines, so playing MEQ shouldn't be a problem. so unless the protector protocols got changed so you can't double fire on overwatch they should be good all by themselves. throw in an HQ or two to help mop up and that's a nasty surprise.
The more I think about it, the more I want to give out "activity" artifacts to the Enginseers. So they have something to do other than fix. Like re-roll for skitarii and surround him with a bunch of dragoons. Since it says "friendly skitarii", I can put it on an enginseer in the Lucius Detachment and have him just stand arround the Stygy Dragoons and Lucius Vanguard. And the other repair enginseer can have the re-roll canticle warlord trait.
I recall Suzuteo had a fun mechanised vehicle list that was heavy on the onagers with dragoons for screaning. The list accommodated a barebones knight Crusader.
Now knights are no longer sensible from what I gather. Would a list using dragoons for screaning in maybe a battalion formation with Cawl and nuke Daka bots(5-6) work?
Could you still use a knight Crusader and just dragoons for screening with a couple of neutron onagers or would this list be too fragile?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yeah, Knights just seem underwhelming as they get no goodies from the codex without paying CP. (yes, you can repair them for 1 hp, woweee >_> )
i mean 24 wounds at toughness 8 with minimum 12 D3 damage attacks at str 8 and ap -2 isn't bad. then you add the guns.....
's early on had cost me a game for sure. Having Cawl or a TPD nearby for rerolls could help big time.
