Jeez... That was bad. Osyraa should be scary, but when nearby one of our protagonist won't shoot. Hopefully she have like the Admiral in her pocket (or Book) to explain why she knew everything that literally not even other in the Federation knew, but I don't have hope.
And yet another Space Jesus (or Space Devil's, who cares). How the feth they get that messianic arcs goes well with Trek I don't know (any time was a symptom of a bad episode).
My viewing time is around 25' in the last episodes, I skipped a lot of boring / unnecessary stuff.
Saru deserves some face time for it's effort, even if the hook was meaningless (to do not scare him... That's why instead of a familiar face of the same species we made you appear as an alien... At least the computer have the excuses of being fried by radiation: writers haven't).
The place is a Shrodinger danger: simultaneously lethal in a few hours and liveable for centuries. If that was the plan, why the Burn haven't happened few years ago? Setting would have made more sense, and the story too.
Tilly... Uhgh. Can't care less for her come back stronger next episode. Book is growing a little on me. But the real protagonists of the series are the inconsistencies you meet along the way.
Very, very bad. Like, eye-opening bad.
So, the utterly unbearable Burham was not the culprit, rather then a symptom of everything they aren't able of willing to improve.
Let's hope Picard improve because Discovery.... "It's dead Jim".
Tilly should have blown them away. So, you want my ship’s engine in intact working order? Well I don’t have those qualms about yours. Otherwise Tilly suddenly acting confident in command was way less annoying than babbling Tilly, and I give the actress props for that.
The future super teleporters are getting annoying. People just blinking in and out. Apparently thru Shields or did Tilly not bother to raise those?
Actually... why do they even still have a spore cube? Originally it was to keep the tartograde in, but that hasn’t been a thing for a long time. Those other two guys stood in there with him seemingly just fine.
Also why are you messing with explosive collars when you have mind control headbands?
I am amazingly disappointed the cause of the Burn was a person. He gestated in the womb near a bunch of dilithium while being bombarded by radiation, and magically mutated the power to explode all dilithium in the galaxy when he scream in terror, except apparently for the planet he’s sitting on. That dilithium was uneffected?
The holograms changing their appearance... How did that work? Saru comments on his heels touching the ground before he knows he’s changed. Did he feel it? Did the computer change his sensory feedback? Like, the mechanical structure of his legs changed but he never broke his stride or stumbled and just walked normally, albeit still doing the wavy arms thing. It was just... weird and kind of pointless.
I find even more insulting that they aren't even trying anymore. Yes the planet is crooked/partially blown, but FFS you told us literal millions of ship exploded from few grams in their high contained Warp core.
ALSO, the Burn was so immediate that to triangulate it's location you needed super-super futuristic tech, but in this episode you have like all the warning sign, you see the phenomena expand and have a lot of time to try to contain or drop dilithium?
And "what the event that caused the Burn ahouly be?"... Ooohhh, mystery. Mommy died obviously. What a stroke of genius.
I think they really aren't even trying anymore. It's as generic and vanilla as the next sci-fi series. Shame on them. I'm sorry for cause I think the Kelpian deserved more as a species
AduroT wrote: Finished season six of DS9, on to the final!
Enjoy! You're tearing through it - I did the same the closer I got to the end. Season 6 is some of my favorite DS9, that first block of six episodes work as a great war movie; about the same length as A Bridge Too Far!
Season 7 has some really fun moments. Let me know what you think of
Spoiler:
Esri Dax, she has two episodes in the first half of the season as a main character that, although a bit out of place in the Dominion War storyline, I still enjoyed; I think she's a good character, unfortunately season seven is just a very bad time to introduce a new main cast member.
And done. I Had seen it before, long ago. Like I’d remembered bits and pieces and things would happen and I’d be like oh yeah, that. Vic showed up and I was like oh god, I remember Vic, he was so integral, how did he not show up till this late in the series? With Ezri. I knew she was a thing, and I just kept waiting for it to happen. Like there was the episode where Worf and Dax do the mission together and there were so many flags and I was sure it was about to happen and then it didn’t. I wish the series ended with Morn having the final word instead of Qwark.
What we left Behind, the DS9 documentary is free with ads so watch that.
I talk about Star Trek alot, but in all honesty, i have only seen Ds9 all the way through, gave up on ENT halfway through s4. still having a hard time mmaking it through TNG.
seen every VOY ep, but i have never ever watched it front to back.
DS9 i think truly is the ancestor of serialized TV we have now. you see it in every thread
However, I do wish, ore shows would take somme cues from it, where it has somme overarching stories, but some standalone ones too.
DS9 i think truly is the ancestor of serialized TV we have now. you see it in every thread
Eh.
It was part of the move that direction, certainly, but not the ancestor.
There was a joke on Babylon Five about not being a 'deep space franchise.' As the story goes, JM Straczynski originally took his idea (for B5) to Paramount, in 1989, and the DS9 development announcement was two months after B5's announcement. But beyond executive meddling steering DS9 in imitation of his series bible and scripts, there wasn't anything they could really address in a lawsuit.
Meanwhile Seaquest was on at the same time, and running the 'episodic show' into the ground. Well. Sea floor. Or alien time travel trainwreck, as you prefer.
hotsauceman1 wrote: What we left Behind, the DS9 documentary is free with ads so watch that.
I talk about Star Trek alot, but in all honesty, i have only seen Ds9 all the way through, gave up on ENT halfway through s4. still having a hard time mmaking it through TNG.
seen every VOY ep, but i have never ever watched it front to back.
DS9 i think truly is the ancestor of serialized TV we have now. you see it in every thread
However, I do wish, ore shows would take somme cues from it, where it has somme overarching stories, but some standalone ones too.
When I did a rewatch of TNG a few years back I started with like S4, then went forward, then went back for 3, 2 and I think I gave up halfway through 1. Those first two seasons were BAD. Watch the pilot, the S2 episode where they introduce the Borg and go on from there.
SeaQuest DSV was the show with Roy Scheider, and later Michael Ironside.
and 3/5 of the Deluise brothers in it, too.
The ones that weren't on Stargate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They sort of announced a filming start for Picard S2.
It was supposed to start in January - Evan Evagora was told to prep for that, but it's been pushed back to February 2021 instead.
hotsauceman1 wrote: What we left Behind, the DS9 documentary is free with ads so watch that.
I talk about Star Trek alot, but in all honesty, i have only seen Ds9 all the way through, gave up on ENT halfway through s4. still having a hard time mmaking it through TNG.
seen every VOY ep, but i have never ever watched it front to back.
DS9 i think truly is the ancestor of serialized TV we have now. you see it in every thread
However, I do wish, ore shows would take somme cues from it, where it has somme overarching stories, but some standalone ones too.
When I did a rewatch of TNG a few years back I started with like S4, then went forward, then went back for 3, 2 and I think I gave up halfway through 1. Those first two seasons were BAD. Watch the pilot, the S2 episode where they introduce the Borg and go on from there.
I watched like, 5 episode of S1, mostly to understand a few things later on. like Tasha Yar.
But like, i made it to s3, and its kinda hard.
hotsauceman1 wrote: What we left Behind, the DS9 documentary is free with ads so watch that.
I talk about Star Trek alot, but in all honesty, i have only seen Ds9 all the way through, gave up on ENT halfway through s4. still having a hard time mmaking it through TNG.
seen every VOY ep, but i have never ever watched it front to back.
DS9 i think truly is the ancestor of serialized TV we have now. you see it in every thread
However, I do wish, ore shows would take somme cues from it, where it has somme overarching stories, but some standalone ones too.
When I did a rewatch of TNG a few years back I started with like S4, then went forward, then went back for 3, 2 and I think I gave up halfway through 1. Those first two seasons were BAD. Watch the pilot, the S2 episode where they introduce the Borg and go on from there.
I watched like, 5 episode of S1, mostly to understand a few things later on. like Tasha Yar.
But like, i made it to s3, and its kinda hard.
The Beverly Crusher ancestral Scottish ghost possession episode isn't to be missed. Though that's actually season 7, despite the sheer awfulness. I honestly thought that was earlier, based solely on how horrid it was.
TNG is often shockingly horrible, and it doesn't really ever stop.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Thankfully most of the truly horrid stuff can be skipped over since it was before the age of serials and soap opera plotting.
TNG was the start of the end for Startrek. There were some long term storylines that evolved through the series here and there. Characters did change and evolve and the setting did advance story wise here and there. Though yes it was very much still built on "alien of the week" formats.
IT amazing how much writer strikes effect our entertainment.
I remember hearing that the 2008 one is responsible for the glut of realoity TV we get right now.
Yeah, that was...not good. The whole situation with Tilly was also just majorly stupid - even more so than when Saaru first made her his first officer. He informs the head of Starfleet the ENSIGN Tilly will take command of the Federation's greatest strategic asset and he just shrugs and goes with it. Ranks exist for a reason people.
The stuff on the planet was predictable, well-trodden Trek at this point with a typical "holodeck goes wrong" scenario. I don't know why dealing with malfunctioning holodecks isn't part of standard Starfleet operating procedure by now.
Not 100% sure what they're getting at with the Kelpian causing the Burn but it certainly seems as though they're saying a scared child caused the death of billions and the collapse of civilisation by throwing a tantrum. As explanations go it's definitely unexpected.
The stuff on the planet was predictable, well-trodden Trek at this point with a typical "holodeck goes wrong" scenario. I don't know why dealing with malfunctioning holodecks isn't part of standard Starfleet operating procedure by now.
To be honest after the EMH program from Voyager and DATA events of Picard, when then combined with the potential for problems with Holodecks, I'm surprised they aren't outlawed. One on a safety level and two on a level that they are basically making living programs that, when run for long periods, basically have all the properties of fully living beings. Basically running holodecks is akin to short term slavery that only works provided there's no power surge and no error that results in the program running for too long.
Slipspace wrote: Yeah, that was...not good. The whole situation with Tilly was also just majorly stupid - even more so than when Saaru first made her his first officer. He informs the head of Starfleet the ENSIGN Tilly will take command of the Federation's greatest strategic asset and he just shrugs and goes with it. Ranks exist for a reason people.
Which again is just annoying for so many reasons.
We can't really question how a spore drive works any more than how a transporter works, it's all space magic with a thin veneer of science and we accept that as part of Space Opera.
But we know how large organizations work and how navies work. So writers have to pay some attention to internal logic there, and someone going from ensign to 1st officer overnight just defies that.
Not as bad as going from cadet to captain of the Federation flagship (shakes fist as JJ Abrams), but still pretty bad.
And it wasn't necessary.
Episode 1 - 30 second scene where Tilly is promoted to Lieutenant for her service in seasons 1 and 2.
Episode 4ish - some random bridge person dies, Tilly gets a field promotion to fill the job.
Episode 8 - I need a new first officer, Lt Commander Tilly will you take the job?
Yeah 3 promotions in a season is a bit of a stretch but not as bad as one person leaping over the whole crew.
I also liked how this was supposed to be a big time for Saru....but he gets the big emotional time with a hologram while Burnham get to talk to the real boy.
The changing of races was so Doug Jones and better emote.
The Tilly promotion makes less sense once you remember she is in engineering......
hotsauceman1 wrote: I also liked how this was supposed to be a big time for Saru....but he gets the big emotional time with a hologram while Burnham get to talk to the real boy.
The changing of races was so Doug Jones and better emote.
The Tilly promotion makes less sense once you remember she is in engineering......
Jones is definitely the best thing about the show. I love how even without makeup he acts like Saru.
Pretty sure I recall the Bolian as well. There’s also the ship with the entire crew of Vulkans captained by Sisko’s rival. Secondly, I’d call a Worf as much a major character as Saru.
AduroT wrote: Ish? Worf was Captain of the Defiant quite often, but did not actually hold the Rank of Captain.
I think he means as the focus of a series. Pretty sure there've been non-human captains on other ships before.
Yeah, I could have sworn we saw a Bolian as captain of a Federation ship a long time ago, either in TNG or DS9 era.
In the DS9 pilot, Sisko's serving under a Vulcan captain and Bolian first (?) officer during the Battle of Wolf 359, I think the Bolian takes over after the captain gets blowed up. In Season 8 (from What We Left Behind) Nog gets his own command as well.
Can anyone confirm that there is a Sisko TV show "in the works?" I found a few references on some websites I'd never heard of, but nothing official. My hope would be something like the Deadwood movie that came out last year, featuring the same creative team and cast, reuniting for a pretty good epilogue to the series. I'd hate to see Sisko get lumped into the same morass of post-Abrams/Kurtzman Trek that produced STPicard. They pretty much annulled DS9's contribution to Federation history. Not a mention of the Dominion War in the whole series. I don't think the Star Trek Industrial Complex would give Ira Steven Behr and friends as much creative control as they had during the initial run of the series. Anyone have a good sense of the inside baseball at Paramount HQ? And if you do, I've got a couple spec scripts I'd like to run by you...
Oh, I think that would be awful. Given everything recent Trek has done, they'd use his half-Wormhole alien status to make him a fix for (or a cause of) Abrams movies/Disco/Picard plotholes.
I don't think DS9 needs to be tainted by another epilogue after this much time has passed since its wrap-up. The show itself handled it well enough.
AduroT wrote: Ish? Worf was Captain of the Defiant quite often, but did not actually hold the Rank of Captain.
I think he means as the focus of a series. Pretty sure there've been non-human captains on other ships before.
Yeah, I could have sworn we saw a Bolian as captain of a Federation ship a long time ago, either in TNG or DS9 era.
In the DS9 pilot, Sisko's serving under a Vulcan captain and Bolian first (?) officer during the Battle of Wolf 359, I think the Bolian takes over after the captain gets blowed up. In Season 8 (from What We Left Behind) Nog gets his own command as well.
Had not heard of that hypothetical season eight before. Looked it up and nope, don’t like it. Nog getting immediately killed off. Finding out Section 31 did it because he discovered their plans to kill the Prophets and wipe out religion, and that Bashir is in charge of said Section 31. Nope.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who the hell designs a fire suppression system to suck all occupants into space? Not to mention the system requiring a sustained phaser beam fired directly onto the sensor for a good ten seconds before it activates.
The same person who doesn't put any breaker boxes onto starships and thus allows main power to blowback through keyboards. Seriously during an attack on the ship I suspect most of the burns crew get come from the freaking keyboards and control panels.
Heck they don't even have steatbelts on their chairs!
The lack of seat belts bothered me for a long time, but if you're moving at warp and the inertial dampeners fail, yer paint regardless, seat belt or no. Using that logic, I figure the way they shake and jump on the bridge is whatever force makes it past the dampeners.
EDIT: Oh I do see your point though - it's not about the deceleration from warp, it's about the ship shaking when it gets hit with a torpedo. Sure thing, seat belts would be appreciated then. I suppose the justification is that there are no seat belts on the bridge of a battleship/submarine, but I imagine they roll over less frequently.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: The lack of seat belts bothered me for a long time, but if you're moving at warp and the inertial dampeners fail, yer paint regardless, seat belt or no. Using that logic, I figure the way they shake and jump on the bridge is whatever force makes it past the dampeners.
EDIT: Oh I do see your point though - it's not about the deceleration from warp, it's about the ship shaking when it gets hit with a torpedo. Sure thing, seat belts would be appreciated then. I suppose the justification is that there are no seat belts on the bridge of a battleship/submarine, but I imagine they roll over less frequently.
Exactly - when you see the ship in combat its REALLY not combat ready in the least.
Exploding panels should not happen unless the weapon used is causing electrical discharge to run all over the ship; being hit and sending crew flying every which way shouldn't happen either. Most bridge and crew injuries were avoidable - clearly no one taught Starfleet (nor any others) about health and safety.
Another interesting point is that all ships are built with the idea that gravity generation won't be broken. Granted this is more one of those budget constraints in the early series that became a theme that was never let go and its pretty common in most sci-fi. Even firefly on touched on it (mostly because they really were running on a shoestring budget too), but at least did touch on it. But even the designs don't really feature handles or other no or low gravity aids to move around the ship.
Seatbelts? Jem’Hadar ships didn’t even have Chairs! And there was the episode they found the crashed ship and the entire crew had been pasted into the nearest bulkhead because the inertial dampeners failed.
I've learned to relax about the lack of seatbelts thing, mainly from reading the Expanse.
Seatbelts are fine for most of the acceleration changes that people are subjected to whilst driving cars, but in the event of bad things happening, you need additional measures such as airbags.
You do super deceleration, then all a seatbelt is going to do is make two (or three or five) lumps of meat get turned into salsa on the forward bulkhead instead of one big lump getting turned into salsa on the forward bulkhead.
Mind you, the forces that seem to be in play in Star Trek when the inertial dampeners have a hard time aren't the "splat" kind, more the "Oh, Vic... I've fallen" kind. So seatbelts would stop that stuff.
Dammit! I've just got irritated by the whole situation again!
Kind of almost an interesting conflict, at what price peace? Would you make peace with slavers if they promised they'd try real hard to phase out slavery over the next 15 years?
Would a war really be better?
But then it turns into an action movie, and never really explains why Orisya had to hijack a ship to make a peace offer.
Ah well. It didn't make my eyes bleed and I can honestly call it the best episode of the year.
Yeah, ST: Die Hard not quite working so well. There were a lot of logical inconsistencies about various character's motivations. It also seemed a little too easy for Stamets to start convincing the other scientist he was on the wrong side.
I'm also struggling to explain the reason for Michael's decision with Stamets. They don't even have the ship yet but surely the best solution for Discovery would be to jump away from Starfleet HQ then scuttle Discovery if there was any danger to the Spore Drive. IT's also becoming more and more tiring to see Burnham start pointing out that everyone needs to be so selfless when her main character trait is that she always does whatever she wants and through the magic of bad writing it always turns out to be right.
I quite enjoyed it. I don't really remember the specifics of Starship Mine, and it wasn't as good as Stargates 'Die Hard on Atlantis' episode, but I wouldn't call it a bad episode, at all.
I quite liked Ossyra being developed as the new Gul Dukat, and I enjoyed Stamets, "I believe you, she is more than she seems to be... But she is also exactly who she seems to be."
I have a minor issue with Ossyra. Not the character herself - I don't think we really know enough yet to make a judgement there, though the last episode gave us some good pointers. No, my problem is with the make-up. Every time she's on screen I can't get the Wicked Witch from the Wizard of Oz out of my head. I'm not sure why but there's something about the tone of green they've used, and possibly the hair too, that makes it really difficult to take the character seriously.
So that was layers and layers of what the hell? Let’s see...
Spoiler:
So Discovery can survive an at least 5 minute continual bombardment from a dozen other ships, take out the main shield generator of a space station, and suffer no real damage other than cosmetic internal explosions.
Just what the hell is our Trill ghost? I was ok with them being a hallucination of the host because that’s been a thing before, but apparently they can be detected by a computer and fully visualized and understood and capable of independent action and new experiences?
Why did we bother calling Navaro for help if you tell them to stand down immediately upon arrival because they were threatened with... pesticide? Like, I get that it’s toxic, but I’m going to spray pesticide on their air locks then shoot their air locks and the shrapnel will kill everyone just seems stupid. The Navarans served zero purpose.
Quick, emergency quarantine field! That still has access to a door...
Do turbolifts travel thru some kind of Tardis pocket dimension or when did Discovery get that much vast Vast VAST wide open wasted space inside of it? Forget rats living in your walls, Discovery could host a whole lost civilization between decks.
What was the point of the sphere data robots? They just kind of ran directly into enemy gun fire and got blown to bits without seemingly accomplishing anything other than a mild distraction. That’s a weird direction for them to take after being so insistent the data not be threatened last finale. And I guess one surviving in a magnetic field it’s not supposed to be able to survive in to pull a person to safety. Is all that huge knowledge now in a single repair drone?
The data core room. Don’t stand near the walls, they randomly shoot air or some kind of energy out or something? Also careful you don’t get sucked into that unshielded panel of... stuff right there. That room is quite hazardous for how unassuming it looks.
Personally I find it hard to enjoy the schadenfreude, Discovery was the first proper StarTrek series to come out since 2005 and it is just an absolute train crash XD
Kroem wrote:Personally I find it hard to enjoy the schadenfreude, Discovery was the first proper StarTrek series to come out since 2005 and it is just an absolute train crash XD
Kroem wrote:Yea you know; live actors, big budget T.V. I'm not sure if there were any cartoon or book series published in the interim.
Not a fan or not familiar with the Expanse? I've also heard good things about Orphan Black although I'll admit that I haven't watched it. There are others that were good for a time before sucking again (like Doctor Who's reboot).
Kroem wrote:Personally I find it hard to enjoy the schadenfreude, Discovery was the first proper StarTrek series to come out since 2005 and it is just an absolute train crash XD
Kroem wrote:Yea you know; live actors, big budget T.V.
I'm not sure if there were any cartoon or book series published in the interim.
Not a fan or not familiar with the Expanse? I've also heard good things about Orphan Black although I'll admit that I haven't watched it. There are others that were good for a time before sucking again (like Doctor Who's reboot).
He did say Star Trek Show
Expanse is a brilliant show - Discovery is realy really bad fan fiction about one character and her sidekick....
Expanse is a brilliant show - Discovery is realy really bad fan fiction about one character and her sidekick....
I watched there first 2(?) episode of the Expanse and whilst it wasn't bad it didn't feel very Star Trek to me. Based on those first two episodes, it had all the trappings of a Star Trek, smooth ships, aliens etc. but didn't seem to have the same focus on interesting philosophical/ sociological/ ethical quandaries at the heart of Star Trek. However maybe it finds it's feet in episode 3!
What I would really love is Star Trek: Hornblower or Star Trek: Patrick O'Brian!
I watched there first 2(?) episode of the Expanse and whilst it wasn't bad it didn't feel very Star Trek to me.
Based on those first two episodes, it had all the trappings of a Star Trek, smooth ships, aliens etc. but didn't seem to have the same focus on interesting philosophical/ sociological/ ethical quandaries at the heart of Star Trek.
However maybe it finds it's feet in episode 3!
Not sure about finding its feet in episode 3. . . but I would say it definitely does find them, and is a great show. Season 4 was a departure from the "formula" that they spent the first 3 seasons developing, but even that one isn't bad.
And I would say that the *cal quandaries you bring up for Trek are definitely there, if somewhat more muted, and more greyed out
I was under the impression that The Expanse, while absolutely excellent, was a lot closer in vein to nuBSG than Star Trek, where the closest analogue is 'The Orville', provided you can stand Seth Macfarlane humour, though despite the humour, it does have very Star Trekkish situations and philosophical questions.
Sooooo, Just a train wreck.
I'll get my Trek fill from Lower Decks.
Good job discovery. You made something worse then Star Trek 09.
Also, dilithium was never required for warp travel discovery. You like to give nods to other series. But it's clear the writers never saw them.
Also, magic holo somehow allows a troll memory to
Because it continues to just astound me as possibly the dumbest part of all the dumb stuff from that episode, This is what it looks like outside the Discovery’s turbolifts. Just... why?
Why would any ship designer leave huge internal spaces like that? Space is at a premium on seafaring ship design, but maybe that doesn't apply in space?
Still got to accelerate the whole ship to at least warp 6 though so you would think it would be an issue.
Well, that’s it until season 4. This one had glimmers of brilliance, but kinda lost its way.
But, given the end was them going on their merry Starfleet way, I’m dimly hopeful we’ll get Proper Trek Stories, as there’s nothing to continue over in terms of cliff hangers.
Compel wrote: I was under the impression that The Expanse, while absolutely excellent, was a lot closer in vein to nuBSG than Star Trek, where the closest analogue is 'The Orville', provided you can stand Seth Macfarlane humour, though despite the humour, it does have very Star Trekkish situations and philosophical questions.
Agreed - I would highly recomend the Expanse but its not (nor does it want to be) Trek.
Hopefully Picard Season 2 will be owrth watching - although not if its like the final episode.
They’ve actually had similar scenes in previous seasons but I apparently overlooked them because they didn’t involve action scenes of characters smashing out the windows of the turbo lift and jumping onto another passing car. The main difference here is they used to have actual rollercoaster rails they rode on, but those have been replaced by those future tech floating squares that the cars just float thru.
AduroT wrote: They’ve actually had similar scenes in previous seasons but I apparently overlooked them because they didn’t involve action scenes of characters smashing out the windows of the turbo lift and jumping onto another passing car. The main difference here is they used to have actual rollercoaster rails they rode on, but those have been replaced by those future tech floating squares that the cars just float thru.
Are those squares just teleporting in as well - at that point just use teleporters everywhere?
Compel wrote: I was under the impression that The Expanse, while absolutely excellent, was a lot closer in vein to nuBSG than Star Trek, where the closest analogue is 'The Orville', provided you can stand Seth Macfarlane humour, though despite the humour, it does have very Star Trekkish situations and philosophical questions.
Agreed - I would highly recomend the Expanse but its not (nor does it want to be) Trek.
Hopefully Picard Season 2 will be owrth watching - although not if its like the final episode.
I shall also chime in and say Expanse, while in no way a “Trek” show, is gosh dang Amazing and if you’re a fan of scifi you should be watching it. It’s fairly grounded in its scifi though, covering most all things in a very realistic way baring one specific exception.
Orville is way more “trek” than most modern Trek shows, and the McFarlan humor is fairly toned down. It’s got some stupid zany stuff sure, but it’s no Family Guy. They do not shy away from allegories to opine on current/political/social events, and are very anti-religion if those are things that concern you though.
AduroT wrote: They’ve actually had similar scenes in previous seasons but I apparently overlooked them because they didn’t involve action scenes of characters smashing out the windows of the turbo lift and jumping onto another passing car. The main difference here is they used to have actual rollercoaster rails they rode on, but those have been replaced by those future tech floating squares that the cars just float thru.
Are those squares just teleporting in as well - at that point just use teleporters everywhere?
I don’t think they’re teleporting in, I think those are the “programable matter” they get from the future tech. Basically nanotech that reshapes itself to the task at hand. They generally Do use teleporters everywhere now though, because everyone’s com badge includes a built in personal transporter, but the bad guys had jammed all transport on the ship.
Compel wrote: I was under the impression that The Expanse, while absolutely excellent, was a lot closer in vein to nuBSG than Star Trek, where the closest analogue is 'The Orville', provided you can stand Seth Macfarlane humour, though despite the humour, it does have very Star Trekkish situations and philosophical questions.
Agreed - I would highly recomend the Expanse but its not (nor does it want to be) Trek.
Hopefully Picard Season 2 will be owrth watching - although not if its like the final episode.
I shall also chime in and say Expanse, while in no way a “Trek” show, is gosh dang Amazing and if you’re a fan of scifi you should be watching it. It’s fairly grounded in its scifi though, covering most all things in a very realistic way baring one specific exception.
I'm on record as a big fan of the Expanse, show and the books (although I've yet to see Season Four or Five). I think the books at least are a spiritual-successor to Star Trek; they are much more optimistic and upbeat than the show, and have that sense of celebrating humanity's potential. It's also less naive and a little sardonic at times - it doesn't assume that we'll work out our problems overnight. It shows the work of characters putting aside their bs and making it work, which I appreciate. And there's a lot of cool hard sci-fi tech stuff and thought experiments, plenty of space politics. It is not the same as Star Trek, but I think it's what Star Trek made today would be (ignoring all the Star Trek that is being made today, of course. )
Other than both being in the future and space (and obviously the same scifi genre of TV), I don't see much in the way of similarities tonally between the the Expanse and classic Trek. I like them both for what they are though.
warboss wrote: Other than both being in the future and space (and obviously the same scifi genre of TV), I don't see much in the way of similarities tonally between the the Expanse and classic Trek. I like them both for what they are though.
I was speaking more to the books, I agree that the show doesn't fit the tone as well.
AduroT wrote: Because it continues to just astound me as possibly the dumbest part of all the dumb stuff from that episode, This is what it looks like outside the Discovery’s turbolifts. Just... why?
Their Chameleon Circuit clearly works, its bigger on the inside!!
AduroT wrote: Because it continues to just astound me as possibly the dumbest part of all the dumb stuff from that episode, This is what it looks like outside the Discovery’s turbolifts. Just... why?
Wait.. Its creating archways (which presumably move the 'turbolift') as they travel. That's amazingly dumb. And then they float in place. The power requirements for the matter-energy conversion and to float all the square arches would dwarf the power requirements of almost everything else on the ship. Just to take the elevator.
With all that space, you could just have stairs and not have any power requirements at all!
Somehow the interior of Discovery is the 'Monster Inc' doorway warehouse inside Babylon 5.
I'm guessing someone at the writer's room or artist room was drunk, or the next reveal is that they're in a giant maze simulation run by mice to test human intelligence and discover the Ultimate Question.
AduroT wrote: Because it continues to just astound me as possibly the dumbest part of all the dumb stuff from that episode, This is what it looks like outside the Discovery’s turbolifts. Just... why?
WHERE ARE ALL THE JEFFERIES TUBES!?!?!!?!?!?!
Holy cow that is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.
Wouldn't just be quicker/easier/more energy efficient to just teleport over from one room to the next instead of building the teleportation railroad in front of the tube train? It's like they just wanted to waste money on effects.
warboss wrote: Wouldn't just be quicker/easier/more energy efficient to just teleport over from one room to the next instead of building the teleportation railroad in front of the tube train? It's like they just wanted to waste money on effects.
wooooo! look at how futuristic this is wooo! it's advanced!
star tek has ALWAYS had this problem to a degree (using force fields in their brig instead of doors and bars, thus ensuring a power outage would be mixed with a prison break) but this looks like it takes it a quantum leap forward, in a bad way
If I remember Kirk mostly just punched people and got hot alot.
Burnham is surviving decompression, falls that would kill people. All that stuff.
Star Trek on screen had sort of this realism to it, mostly for budget constraints on old shows, action was real.
But Disco has action movie action
I've just started watching TOS again (partially to see what the new effects are like, partially because I want to start playing ST:STCS) and I started with The Doomsday Machine.
Spoiler alert: Kirk's plot armour saves him. It also saves those unimportant crew members who I can't remember the name of and don't contribute to the story or the solution to the problem. Wait... I meant Spock, Bones, Scotty, Sulu... all people who had a part to play.
Now, I'm not a TOS fanboy at all - I used to think that it was primative and dated, but the acting there blows Discovery out of the water. I even empathised with the PTSD suffering Commodore and didn't see him as the bad guy, just a very broken man. I never got anything like that out of Disco or Picard.
Despite the camp, I think TOS acting is really strong. All working actors playing often-goofy scenarios completely straight. It is particularly great when you get to the movies. Shatner certainly has a distinct way of talking, but he's a good actor.
I think the best ensemble, in terms of acting quality, has to be DS9, right? Pretty much everyone in the main cast is a powerhouse, and such a fun supporting cast as well.
DS9 was bold in that it defocused from Sisko and the "core bridge crew" quite early on. even to the point of not even featuring them in some episodes.
They fleshed out a lot of the support cast to the point that they were no longer just supporting. Something that Voyager went back on - which is surprising since in theory a totally isolated crew should have allowed it all the more.
That was.... Odd. But the oddest thing was I kept wondering why Nilsson had vanished to be replaced by Lt. Ina
Kept thinking this was a redshirt situation, but she survived. Turns out the actress has been in the series quite a lot, but under heavy prosthetics, which puts it in the Doug Jones "it would be nice to have your real face on screen" category. Which is honestly quite cool.
There is no way in God's green federation that Burnham should be promoted to Captain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously.
You should be Captain because my daughter hates arithmetic is just crazy
Overread wrote: DS9 was bold in that it defocused from Sisko and the "core bridge crew" quite early on. even to the point of not even featuring them in some episodes.
They fleshed out a lot of the support cast to the point that they were no longer just supporting. Something that Voyager went back on - which is surprising since in theory a totally isolated crew should have allowed it all the more.
Having recently binged the series, I want to say if anyone, Quark was probably in the most episodes.
warboss wrote: Probably one of the writers saw a sci-fi quote on Wikipedia that it's bigger on the inside and decided it was trek.
I mean, this is true. Of the Enterprise J, as described in Enterprise. It's supposed to have used spatial folding such that the ship's interior was much larger than exterior (while the exterior was basically the size of a cube... So not sure why anyone bothered), but that still doesn't amount to 'our ship is almost completely hollow inside.' That's just stupidity for the sole sake of a 'wow look at that' scene no one will actually enjoy because the idea is so stupid.
And the Enterprise J is supposed to be from the 26th century.
warboss wrote: Probably one of the writers saw a sci-fi quote on Wikipedia that it's bigger on the inside and decided it was trek.
I mean, this is true. Of the Enterprise J, as described in Enterprise. It's supposed to have used spatial folding such that the ship's interior was much larger than exterior (while the exterior was basically the size of a cube... So not sure why anyone bothered), but that still doesn't amount to 'our ship is almost completely hollow inside.' That's just stupidity for the sole sake of a 'wow look at that' scene no one will actually enjoy because the idea is so stupid.
And the Enterprise J is supposed to be from the 26th century.
And the pod the Enterprise finds in Future Tense is bigger on the inside.
I genuinely thought I'd missed some part of the story and they'd somehow gone back to Starfleet HQ for the turbolift sequence. Everything on Discovery in that last episode was majorly stupid. We had firefights in empty rooms with no cover, Burnham surviving entering the data core because...reasons and the weird energy surges that kept knocking her and Ossyra over at the most inopportune moments. Then the strange "shove her into the wall" non-death that made no sense.
I'm also left wondering why the crew were so shocked that life support was turned off. Wouldn't that literally be the first thing you'd do in the event of a hostile force rampaging around the non-essential areas of your ship? Then there's the convenient contrivance of Booker being able to use the spore drive because the plot demands it.
Speaking of the plot, I'm so glad they came up with such a well thought-out explanation for the Burn /s.
And now it looks like Doug Jones may well be gone, judging by the ending. In his place we have Captain Plot Armour who's given command because she does everything the wrong way but gets the right result, which in no way seems like a recipe for disaster. Don't think I'll be watching season 4.
For some reason I though STD went into a holiday break like every other show so just got around to watching the rest now. It kind of worked better that way since the last 3 episodes are basically a movie. Got to say I think the admiral should have taken that deal with Osira. She was giving Starfleet everything they could possibly want. And taking it would have improved the quality of life of millions of people. However, I won’t fault the Admiral too bad for standing on principle. It’s interesting that someone from the extremely difficult dark age that Starfleet is now in would be old school and cut from the same cloth as Picard TNG era. It’s just a start contrast from Discovery’s crew crying over the departure of Space Hitler Geourgui who is literally 100 times worse than Osira. So instead of coming to a meeting of minds and having that very Star Trek resolution of making peace with their enemies and finding common ground they just killed her instead.
Anyway, I knew others would point out the sheer idiocy of that Turbolift scene. Like seriously what the hell? There’s no way that’s what a turbolift is. How the hell did that scene get green lit? That’s STD for you. Just so uneven and nonsensical.
I don’t know what you guys are complaining about on the turbo lift issue. Do none of you remember the Original Series? Typical example of Spock using the turbo lift:
I think the oddest thing for me is that it’s clearly meant to have been part of Disco’s refit. And I can buy that a couple of centuries of technical advancement could easily create significant redundant space (consider room sized computers, then the iPad i type this on).
But....why then would they keep the outer hull the same? Why wouldn’t they add further decks and labs and crew quarters and leisure facilities to the space frame, rather than just leave massive open spaces.
And why Turbolifts when they’ve seemingly perfected site to site transporters?
Finally? Please please please? No more “thing only exist when it neededs”. Yes it does look kinda cool on screen....but it just seems wasteful. It takes power to replicate and de-replicate. So just.......replicate it and be done with the matter?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: She was giving Starfleet everything they could possibly want. And taking it would have improved the quality of life of millions of people. However, I won’t fault the Admiral too bad for standing on principle.
Yep that is definitely something that comes up in Star Trek a lot XD
I think the Son'A got the worst instance of it; Picard breaks a Federation treaty, condemns the entire Son'A race to a slow, agonising death and destroys a medical technology that could have saved squillions of lives just on the point of principle that the small farming village shall not be moved!
Actually I always hoped the Son'A survived. There was mention in DS:9 of them selling Ketrecel White to the Dominion.
Since the Dominion are master genesmiths, maybe the Son'A got some technology in return to extend their wretched lives by a few more decades.
I think there ended up being more to it than that for the Son'a. - The Son'a and Bak'u were the same people and it was ultimately a family feud that meant they were refusing to simply return home.
By the end of the movie (I nearly said episode, because I've always thought of Insurrection as just a special bonus feature lengthed episode), as the Son'a and the Bak'u were beginning to reconcile, perhaps they could be healed too....
KamikazeCanuck wrote: She was giving Starfleet everything they could possibly want. And taking it would have improved the quality of life of millions of people. However, I won’t fault the Admiral too bad for standing on principle.
Yep that is definitely something that comes up in Star Trek a lot XD
Picard destroys a medical technology that could have saved squillions of lives just on the point of principle that the small farming village shall not be moved!
I really dislike that film for that reason - its just a very bad over long episode of next gen at its worst - IMO
Slipspace wrote: I genuinely thought I'd missed some part of the story and they'd somehow gone back to Starfleet HQ for the turbolift sequence. Everything on Discovery in that last episode was majorly stupid. We had firefights in empty rooms with no cover, Burnham surviving entering the data core because...reasons and the weird energy surges that kept knocking her and Ossyra over at the most inopportune moments. Then the strange "shove her into the wall" non-death that made no sense.
I'm also left wondering why the crew were so shocked that life support was turned off. Wouldn't that literally be the first thing you'd do in the event of a hostile force rampaging around the non-essential areas of your ship? Then there's the convenient contrivance of Booker being able to use the spore drive because the plot demands it.
Speaking of the plot, I'm so glad they came up with such a well thought-out explanation for the Burn /s.
And now it looks like Doug Jones may well be gone, judging by the ending. In his place we have Captain Plot Armour who's given command because she does everything the wrong way but gets the right result, which in no way seems like a recipe for disaster. Don't think I'll be watching season 4.
Of all the things that are dumb I will actually fully accept Booker being able to run the Spore Drive. He has been shown repeatedly since very early on in the season to have that empathic ability to connect and communicate with other creatures, so I am willing to believe that can extend to the Miceleal Network.
Oh, god, Booker. "It doesn't matter that I pissed off the one person in the universe who can use the supar-dupar thing that makes my ship extra-speshul and which I just got made captain of, becos MY BOYFRIEND can do the job as well"
Compel wrote: I think there ended up being more to it than that for the Son'a. - The Son'a and Bak'u were the same people and it was ultimately a family feud that meant they were refusing to simply return home.
By the end of the movie (I nearly said episode, because I've always thought of Insurrection as just a special bonus feature lengthed episode), as the Son'a and the Bak'u were beginning to reconcile, perhaps they could be healed too....
I remember that solution coming up in the film, they said they would need 10 years on the planet to heal and would all be dead long before then.
I know some did return to the planet though.
Well the only good news is Doug Jones will be back for season 4.
Other than that... yeah no. Dull firefights, ludicrous turbolift flight, and Star Fleet is completely incompetent - unable to disable a single ship in the middle of their headquarters.
So the comedy Below Decks animation appeared on Amazon Prime.
Eh I was down for a comic take on ST, but this suffers. The animation is not to my liking, but worse is the speed. Everything is happening at a lightning fast speed to cram it all in. Jokes hardly have time to develop a chuckle before BOOM next joke or next scene or scene jump. They don't pace it out well in the rush to do so much. There's also a big "Family Guy" edge to the humour which makes it very "drunk funny". Which is to say that its crude, crass, poorly timed and sort of makes you think you need to be abit inebriated to appreciate it.
I dunno I'll give a few more episodes a try, but sadly I think it just misses the mark
Look on the bright side... at least it wasn't named after our Lady and Saviour, Michael Burnham... or even her family. Considering how much galaxy wide destruction they've wrought, it's a breath of fresh air that she wasn't in any way responsible for this calamity. Progress!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: So the comedy Below Decks animation appeared on Amazon Prime.
I'm guessing that's not available in the US but I'll check tonight.
Look on the bright side... at least it wasn't name after our Lady and Saviour, Michael Burnham... or even her family. Considering how much galaxy wide destruction they've wrought, it's a breath of fresh air that she wasn't in any way responsible for this calamity. Progress!
OMG, I never even thought of that...
Well with time travel there's still time for her to cause it in Season 4!
Wizard/Mutant Kid-AAAAAH Look what you made me do!
Burnham - Never forget me, my name is Burn- (sucked into time warp)
It's... fine. But yeah, GEEZ, like Overread said, can they JUST SLOW DOWN a little. Everythings talking and happening so quickly I thought I had accidentally turned fast forward on...
Compel wrote: I watched the first episode on Prime UK.
It's... fine. But yeah, GEEZ, like Overread said, can they JUST SLOW DOWN a little. Everythings talking and happening so quickly I thought I had accidentally turned fast forward on...
It's the Rick and Morty style. Just throw joke after joke out there so if one doesn't land, it quickly just goes to the next.
Compel wrote: I watched the first episode on Prime UK.
It's... fine. But yeah, GEEZ, like Overread said, can they JUST SLOW DOWN a little. Everythings talking and happening so quickly I thought I had accidentally turned fast forward on...
It's the Rick and Morty style. Just throw joke after joke out there so if one doesn't land, it quickly just goes to the next.
Probs why I’m not really getting on with it, as I’m not a fan of Rick and Morty.
Which is a shame, as I’ve only heard good things about Lower Decks.
I'd argue at least classic era simpsons is slower on delivery. I'd also say that Simpsons, esp classic era, spent a lot more time building a story into its episodes - whilst Below Decks rushes even the story at hyperspeed.
Comedy is all about timing and I feel like they are just the wrong side of fast and too loose with the story to get the delivery of the jokes right. At least for me.
Lower Decks is probably the best modern Trek.
Its made by people that love trek.
First 4 or so episodes are rough, but it gets better and the fast paced makes it better.
The court episode still makes me laugh
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m just finding it a bit....well, I wanna say ‘smug’. Just a wee bit up itself.
I find it a bit like that, but also somewhat like Team America in that its not just a childish humour, but a distinctly "drunken teen/adult" style of humour. It's not quite as bad as Team America, but its trying that same style of humour.
Team America I enjoyed, probably because it was unapologetically childish and daft - but never actually stupid.
Lower Decks. I dunno. Folk may have noticed I don’t tend to be on record criticising things, as I usually find a quick “not my bag” type comment to be justification in itself.
But here I wish I could put my finger on it properly. It’s kinda like me and Anime. I should like it. It’s got all the ingredients I enjoy. Just somehow the recipe and end product is unappealing.
Ah well. It is but my opinion, and absolutely no reason for anyone else not to enjoy it.
Unlike anything made by Seth McFarlane, the smuggest, gittiest smug git that ever smug gitted his way onto our screens. And anyone encouraging him should be taken out the back and, erm....sent to a farm in Wisconsin*
*I’ve no idea if Wisconsin has farmland. I’m not even sure whether it’s a State or not.
I really, really, really loathe him. Almost as much as I utterly loathe Jared Sodding Leto. Which is a lot.
But seriously, comedy skit on stuff I really do seem to have an allergic level distaste for, you do you dear reader.
Hmm I've heard positive things about The Orville but I've not seen it; that said almost all Seth McFarlane's animations - yep I'm right there with you on the dislike
Then again as someone who loves animation I'm not a fan of how the western media has generally treated it since the end of the 90s by relegating it to "adult humour" style shows with often very low animation quality and mostly just using it as an excuse to produce drivel in the name of being adult (its so adult its like a teen trying to be adult by being super edgy...). Granted I believe France and some other nations treat it better, though there's a translation barrier there. So some of my McFarlane hate is carry over
I only watched I think the first two-and-a-half episodes of Lower Decks when they were first airing. I feel similarly to what's been said above, although I went back and watched the finale and found it to be a bit better done. Overall the show was a little too self-aware, I think, taking a lot of memey parts of Trek but not really engaging with the world in a meaningful way. It didn't feel like it was adding depth to the lore. Which might not be what people want for a comedy show, but it's what I would prefer on a comedy Star Trek show.
I'm just not particularly impressed with any Trek that's come out since 2009, and honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the Next Gen movies either (except for First Contact). The market has changed, the audience has changed. Everything is grim and cynical and explosions.
TOS and its successors worked past their limitations. Good actors and stories made up for pretty goofy sets and effects - well mostly - especially when considering the budget, studio, and viewing audience of the time. So you have lots of scenes of tense dialogue. Characters debating things, and through those debates, we have plot progression and character development. One of my favorite TOS episodes is when Kirk is convinced a traveling actor is an escaped war criminal, but the actor has space-dementia and isn't sure himself. So! Much! Acting!
I don't want to dismiss things without giving them a fair shake, but having seen all of Picard, first four episodes of Discovery, three and a half of Lower Decks, it just hasn't grabbed me. I'm checking out.
Incidentally, Wisconsin is a state! Farmland it has, but delightful dairy is its specialty. Wisconsin Cheese Curds are part of most Midwesterner's religion.
I'm just not particularly impressed with any Trek that's come out since 2009, and honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the Next Gen movies either (except for First Contact). The market has changed, the audience has changed. Everything is grim and cynical and explosions.
I enjoyed the first part of Enterprise, but the temporal war kind of mucked up how I envisioned the series going and I fell out of keeping up. Picard is actually the first series in a long while I've enjoyed greatly and in part because it felt like its the first Trek that actually built off what DS9 gave us - a more small-man view just outside of a Federation Flagship with a more gritty look at the darker side of the Federation. There's nothing in it that isn't in episodes and themes that are established (some even way back in Original series), but the series focuses on them rather than resolving them in a single episode.
I do get how some dislike the darker tone and it does have some cheesy elements - though I'm somewhat glad that they've written Data out of the story now. I like Data, but ever since the end of TNG series and the start of the movies I feel like they kept repeating Data's storylines over and over - they didn't really take him anywhere new and the hyper focus on Picard and Data made the rest of the core crew fall into the background.
Yeah. I really like Picard, and can’t wait for Season 2.
Disco? I get and agree with the criticism of it being Burnhamcentric. But the first two seasons were worthy watching me. Season 3 however lost me. It had high points with distinctly Classic Trek episodes - then sort of disappeared up its own arse in a way that made even Bonio out of U2 blush.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guess I’m just stuck on the “DS9 Ruined Star Trek” concept.
As a show, it had a very ropey start, but went on to push the concept further than before in a fantastic successful way.
Yet what followed seems resolute in refusing to pick up its baton - though Picard has shown a glimmer of hope in that regard.
DS9’ strengths there? My personal trifecta of Quark, Garrak and Dukat. They all had their own agenda, and could be Hero or Villain as needed. Dukat in particular eventually boiled down to a gloriously petty dill weed. A tinpot dictator ousted and rejected by everyone. Just cracking stuff.
Then again as someone who loves animation I'm not a fan of how the western media has generally treated it since the end of the 90s by relegating it to "adult humour" style shows with often very low animation quality and mostly just using it as an excuse to produce drivel in the name of being adult (its so adult its like a teen trying to be adult by being super edgy...). Granted I believe France and some other nations treat it better, though there's a translation barrier there. So some of my McFarlane hate is carry over
If you haven't already done so then I'd recommend trying out Bob's Burgers. The first season is a bit uneven, relying a bit too much on some lowbrow humour, but once it finds its feet and really gets running I'd say it is the closest an animated sitcom has come to picking up the baton left by classic Simpsons and has been consistently getting better with every season. It manages to find that balance between jokes for adults and for kids that early Simpsons was so good at, and it has so far managed to avoid Flanderizing any of its characters or jumping the shark in the plots of each episode. A thing I especially like in it is that the kids actually are kids, rather than just small adults. They go on kids adventures and approach the problems along the way as kids, with a kids view on the world.
Overread wrote: Hmm I've heard positive things about The Orville but I've not seen it; that said almost all Seth McFarlane's animations - yep I'm right there with you on the dislike
The Orville is pretty good with some decent character interplay between characters, some really good jokes.
But it really does suffer from his smugness. The way the show handles religion and spirituality is just bad. It has had several messeges be "Religion is only for lesser developed civilizations, by the time they are space faring, it should be gone"
Star Trek never once insulted or said religion wasnt a good thing. Bajorans and Ckakotay are prime examples. Star Trek believes coexistance is possible with all religions. Orville only believes it is possible if all religions are gone.
The Orville (IMHO of course) suffers because it can't decide what it is. Sometimes it's a nice update of TOS and TNG tackling tough issues like porn and relationships or virtual friends vs real. Though it sometimes stumbles, is zodiac signs really a pressing social problem?
Other times it's an hour long 'joke' about one of the crew having to go to the bathroom.
And still other times it tries to do something epic with a grand space war, but somehow everything is restored by the end of the episode.
It's an OK watch, if you have an hour to kill before bedtime, but that's about it.
Guess I’m just stuck on the “DS9 Ruined Star Trek” concept.
As a show, it had a very ropey start, but went on to push the concept further than before in a fantastic successful way.
Yet what followed seems resolute in refusing to pick up its baton - though Picard has shown a glimmer of hope in that regard.
DS9’ strengths there? My personal trifecta of Quark, Garrak and Dukat. They all had their own agenda, and could be Hero or Villain as needed. Dukat in particular eventually boiled down to a gloriously petty dill weed. A tinpot dictator ousted and rejected by everyone. Just cracking stuff.
I think for me one thing DS9 did really well was it shattered the "Bridge Crew" focus entirely. One thing that has dogged ST for a long time is that the story almost always focuses on the top handful ranked characters on a starship - to the point where most of the rest of the crew actors could (and likely do) change on a weekly basis without us ever noticing that they are different people. Once or twice we might get an ensign rise up from obscurity, but they are normally gone by the end of the episode. Heck the "red shirts" are nameless people who die and yet oddly the ship and crew often show little to no remorse at their passing (I don't think we see one funeral for a redshirt in all the years of ST). I think the only one that rose up a bit was O'Brian.
Thing is following DS9 they seem to keep trying to want to go back to story telling somewhere between Original Series (random alien of the week) and TNG with linked stories. They also keep trying so hard to recreate Spock- Kirk-McCoy. It's like how BBC tried to recreate the Top Gear 3. When DS9 showed that you need the triad (ever notice how there's ALWAYS 1 vulcan.. never 2!) and that in fact you can spread your wings wider.
TNG didn’t really try to recreate OT’s trifecta. Instead we saw a Captain more adept at using the knowledge and abilities of his various crew members.
I think there’s also a loss of the “best we can be” Federation thing. The organisation as a beacon of what a united humanity might achieve one day.
DS9 did some deconstruction of that, without undermining the central theme. The Maquis and “In The Pale Moonlight” instead showed just how much such an ideal needs to be worked at to maintain it.
Again this is where Quark really came into his own, and never in a heavy way. My two favourite scenes?
1. Root Beer
2. Humans and their meals
At the time, they were just scenes. Yet when you can have a good old binge, you see their value.
Quark can be argued as a modern day human, in terms of his values. A bit overwrought and emphasised for effect sure, but still a more familiar lens to the man in the street.
He’s the first time we’ve seen a reflection on the Federation and humanity. And he’s pretty much right.
In The Pale Moonlight shows us the reality of the Federation at war. Sure, they’d prefer a diplomatic way out of things. But they’ll fight in the meantime, because they have to. Sisko’s deception was the right move. The mathematics of war make it the right move for the people’s of the Alpha Quadrant. And as Garak tells him, the price was very, very low.
And right at the very end of the war? We see Sisko tip out his tankard of blood wine. He doesn’t want to revel in glory. He doesn’t want epic songs sung of his deeds. He only ever wanted peace - and in that, we see though he got a little tarnished in the process, he’s still a man of Federation Ideals.
Man DS9 is just so incredibly bloody good!
Maybe modern day writers just don’t feel up to the task of following it up. Certainly Voyager, a contemporary, bailed on that challenge in favour of Captain Inconsistent and The Wasted Opportunities.
I think its also, Atleast with Discovery, Writers are trained for one continuous story for TV now. With nearly every single actor being a part of each episode. We would never have gotten an episode where is just Two actors climbing a mountain or just one trying to cure a plague. We dont get the character development we could anymore.
Season 3 episode 1 Disco, was all Burnham (of course), and Manchester Black.
Episode 2 was all Tilly, Saru and Phillipa. (And is arguably one of their best episodes for it).
Heck, I, at least, didn't learn most of the Discovery casts names until season 3, they were that irrelevant compared to Burnham.
I don't think really possible to say what 'writers are trained for' now. TV channels, production companies, all focus on different things, I don't think there's any general rule.
Take The Mandalorian for example, the title character is the only person that has been in every episode.
The scene is certainly far more complex and varied now. Studios are slowly accepting that non-episodic structure works so we've got haphazard themes from TV series like Game of Thrones which are fully story driven all the way to things like NCIS which are almost all episodic with big story driving events typically in the first and last episodes with little gains and losses through the series (where often acharacter leaving/entering mid-season is only because of real life commitment changes
BlackoCatto wrote: Discovery and Picard don't understand what DS9 is or anything it was trying to tell message wise.
Discovery does not have a message - it has always been a fan fic about one person and her sidekick - everything else in the entire (multi) universe is about her, for her and to show how great she is is - thats it - there is nothing more.
I am not sure about Picard - there are probably trying to say something but what i have no idea. however I am happy to watch season 2 (depsite the awful final episode of S1) but I will no longer watch Star Trek Burnham
I think Picard spent a lot of time getting going and I think a big part of that is not just going through, but showing us how Picard, a very mature and powerful individual, basically has to have a large portion of who he was and what defined him broken down.
We then see him get lost in the middle and then steadily see him rebuild himself. He's still the same person, the same character, but he's also changed, his situation and the world around him has changed and he's had to very suddenly react to that change and either drown or swim.
It's a powerful bit of telling, especially for such a mature character; we are used to it with teen and young adult films; but its rarer to see it with a more mature character and to get to the end and not have him passing the reins onto a younger mentored character. Instead we see Picard remain on the ship, more settled in his role and his place in a changed world around him.
So this thread reminded me that Rogers (our local Terrible Phone/Cable/Internet Megacorp) has some kind of package deal with Crave - the Canadian mirror universe counterpart to CBS all access. Turns out, I got grandfathered into that because I have HBO.
So I marathoned Lower Decks, just in the background while I did work. And I rather enjoyed it.
The Rick and Morty but Star Trek comparisons are fair, it generally follows the same formula of dysfunctional people dealing with sci-fi high concepts with quips, mayhem, and occasionally shocking violence and doesn't really break new ground here. Though one notable exception is that it doesn't actually have a Rick, instead having a cast of four principle characters each occupying one of the four primary personality types: analytical, driver, amiable, and expressive. It's a common sitcom tactic but it's popular because it works, and without Rick sucking up all the oxygen in the room they each have room to contribute to the overall story (and more importantly, be funny!)
Most of all though, I loved the stupid amount of fanservice and inside jokes - something I hate in more serious works, but here it's fantastic. The showrunners clearly know their Trek, and more importantly the Trekkies, and as a result despite the whole project being the most un-Star Trek cartoon they could have possibly made, the internet hate machine just hasn't been able to put its hooks in it like they have with Discovery and Picard.
With both Pick and Horror channels insisting, I'm finally getting around to watching Star Trek Enterprise!
I don't know how it was received at the time. but I'm really enjoying it. Sexy Spock is creating some interesting friction with them sweet Southern boys driving the ship and the the friendship between Dr Phlox and nerdy Riho feels pretty natural.
Most importantly I guess is that it has those juicy moral quandaries.
I just watched an episode debating about whether to parachute in a cure to a deadly disease and whether the junior partner in a successful co-existence is being exploited.
Poor quantum leap guy was getting tied up in knots!
(Couple more episodes and I'll start remembering their names for sure XD)
Overread wrote: I do get how some dislike the darker tone and it does have some cheesy elements - though I'm somewhat glad that they've written Data out of the story now. I like Data, but ever since the end of TNG series and the start of the movies I feel like they kept repeating Data's storylines over and over - they didn't really take him anywhere new and the hyper focus on Picard and Data made the rest of the core crew fall into the background.
I liked the way they ended the Picard/Data story in the finale of Picard. It felt like a fitting way to bring that character to an end, and finally pay off what happened in Nemesis.
Overread wrote: and the hyper focus on Picard and Data made the rest of the core crew fall into the background.
That's a major problem with modern Trek. Outside of Detmer*, I can't name the bridge crew on that show (one of them is Bryce... not sure which one). The show is so hyper-focused on Michael, to the point of exhaustion (the final straw being the new Admiral's fawning "We should do everything your way! Also you are the captain now!" nonsense in the final episode), that it ends up leaving almost everyone behind.
Hopefully the new show with Pike doesn't have the same problem.
Season 3 of Disco was so frustrating because in terms of the rest of the crew, it was a dirty little tease.
Glimmers of delving deeper.....then cut to Burnham and her magic solution.
Normally I hold off judgement until I can binge it. I found season 1 and 2 to be beneficial when watched in larger blocks. But I just can’t bring myself to do it with season 3.
TNG Data and Picard were close, but not abnormally so. It's clear that in the time after the series, when the movies were set, that Picard and Data became closer. Perhaps in part because in that time Picard was seeing some of the rest of his crew moving on whilst Data never had quite the same drive to leave.
Though I think whilst that is a good "in world" argument its not really best presented through the films.
But it makes a sensible point to at least stick with that development, even if its not something some of us find the best. It at least means that the series is remaining true to its original source material - to the lore of the setting.
Kroem wrote: With both Pick and Horror channels insisting, I'm finally getting around to watching Star Trek Enterprise!
I don't know how it was received at the time. but I'm really enjoying it. Sexy Spock is creating some interesting friction with them sweet Southern boys driving the ship and the the friendship between Dr Phlox and nerdy Riho feels pretty natural.
Most importantly I guess is that it has those juicy moral quandaries.
I just watched an episode debating about whether to parachute in a cure to a deadly disease and whether the junior partner in a successful co-existence is being exploited.
Poor quantum leap guy was getting tied up in knots!
(Couple more episodes and I'll start remembering their names for sure XD)
As the resident Enterprise apologist, I'm glad you're enjoying it! I still think it has the best pilot episode of any Trek series. And Dr. Phlox is in my top five Trek characters of all time. It definitely deserves its reputation as being sloppy sometimes, but overall I think it's a very underrated show.
Lower Decks seems very much a young person's humour thing, lots of winking at the camera, meta references and 1000mph pacing.
I realise is isn't aimed at me and hope that it brings younger fans in who go on to watch TNG and DS9 and learn how great Trek can be!
What's annoying is that the concept is great, a proper Trek series set around the midshipman's berth on some tired out old ship of the line would be a really interesting perspective on Starfleet when you aren't one of their star performers.
Yea Dr Phlox is already standing out as a character, weird how the doctors tend to be so. The irascible Bones, Voyager's EMH, Julian Bashir etc.
Dr Phlox is great, can't go wrong with sexy Vulcans (and they exploit that to the max with the Decom scenes!), I quite liked Reed to start with and even the engineer is ok - the Captain is a bit annoying but better than Janeaway. Hoshi is cute (but better in the Mirror Uiverse -- but then they ALL are)
Overread wrote: TNG Data and Picard were close, but not abnormally so. It's clear that in the time after the series, when the movies were set, that Picard and Data became closer. Perhaps in part because in that time Picard was seeing some of the rest of his crew moving on whilst Data never had quite the same drive to leave.
Though I think whilst that is a good "in world" argument its not really best presented through the films.
But it makes a sensible point to at least stick with that development, even if its not something some of us find the best. It at least means that the series is remaining true to its original source material - to the lore of the setting.
Picard and Data almost had a father/son dynamic going on.
Data was being of untold potential, yet for all his intelligence, really quite naive outside of his experience. Picard the middle aged man of rules and honour and that.
Measure of a Man is a wonderful episode, as it not only explores relative morality and the nature of sentience, but we see Picard absolutely go to bat for a crew member - without his actions feeling specific to Data. This is reinforced in Drumhead of course, though I forget which came first.
Remember the concept of Star Trek Lower Decks is inspired by an episode of TNG in which Picard sends a young Ensign off to die in a top secret mission. The episode ending with none of her friends knowing why she actually died and Picard looking grimly out into space....
BlackoCatto wrote: Remember the concept of Star Trek Lower Decks is inspired by an episode of TNG in which Picard sends a young Ensign off to die in a top secret mission. The episode ending with none of her friends knowing why she actually died and Picard looking grimly out into space....
Ah man that's soul crushing I can just imagine some earnest screenplay writer pitching this sober and introspective look at the human cost of "exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilizations and boldly going where no man has gone before".
The executives probably looked him straight in eye, promised to preserve his artistic vision and then immediately phoned James Woods
BlackoCatto wrote: Remember the concept of Star Trek Lower Decks is inspired by an episode of TNG in which Picard sends a young Ensign off to die in a top secret mission. The episode ending with none of her friends knowing why she actually died and Picard looking grimly out into space....
Ah man that's soul crushing I can just imagine some earnest screenplay writer pitching this sober and introspective look at the human cost of "exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilizations and boldly going where no man has gone before".
The executives probably looked him straight in eye, promised to preserve his artistic vision and then immediately phoned James Woods
Before we get out the torches and pitchforks lets actually analyze that: Mike McMahan is the series creator and has been from the start - no one ejected due to 'creative differences' as far as we know. The safe bet is they laid out feelers for a comedy animated series and he pitched the concept to them.
Now, fans have been pondering the idea of a Lower Decks series ever since the TNG episode of the same name aired - and I guess it could be disappointing that that series finally materialized as an animated comedy show - but I frankly don't think Ronald Wilkerson or Jean Louise Matthias are losing any sleep over this one.
I think most fans are going to be ok with the comedy series because in the end they generally sit in their own setting; they don't try to change the core lore or such of the setting, they simply poke fun at it from the side.
Heck if anything it might actually generate enough interest in the concept of a "Lower Decks" series as a serious concept. It would be neat to see since most ST tends to focus almost exclusively on the top bridge crew and top crew in other sectors - DS9 is one of the few where we don't exclusively do that and it focuses on shopkeepers, kids (who actually grow and develop and change); lower staff and such to the point where they are characters not just drop in names and faces that appear once and never again (or twice and never again).
Overread wrote: I think most fans are going to be ok with the comedy series because in the end they generally sit in their own setting; they don't try to change the core lore or such of the setting, they simply poke fun at it from the side.
Heck if anything it might actually generate enough interest in the concept of a "Lower Decks" series as a serious concept. It would be neat to see since most ST tends to focus almost exclusively on the top bridge crew and top crew in other sectors - DS9 is one of the few where we don't exclusively do that and it focuses on shopkeepers, kids (who actually grow and develop and change); lower staff and such to the point where they are characters not just drop in names and faces that appear once and never again (or twice and never again).
Who commands when the main command are off to bed?
I, too, have just gotten involved in watching STE, with Archer at the helm. There are sure some crazy plot holes, as you can see they are trying to set up the initial use of a lot of technology, but it works/does not work as the plot permits.
- How can you visit a planet 'incognito' using your 'translator' device and the person not know you are using a translation device?
- Can someone refresh my memory and help with the warp speed calculations? Isn't each warp factor an increase in light speed, as WF 1 is the speed of light and WF 2 is twice the speed of light? Or is it a factor, as in each WF increase is an exponential increase?
There just seems to be a lot of suspended believe in STE, but I am thoroughly enjoying the show and characters, frankly except Bakula - he really has no warmth or wisdom displayed and seems the need to issue 'a direct order' to his crew way to often. Every word from the captain is an implied order.
Shatner had a glib coolness and personality that you enjoyed.
Picard was the epitome of wisdom and honor within in a very reflective soul.
Archer seems like the character is hard charging to prove himself and lacks any emotional intelligence to relate to anyone.
i am two episodes into season 2 and do look forward to continuing.
- How can you visit a planet 'incognito' using your 'translator' device and the person not know you are using a translation device?
Shh. Its a suspension of disbelief prop that only goes so far.
Given the way they've described them, I'm not sure it works at all if both parties don't have them.
If it does work with only one, it would be very obviously artificial, as a device would be providing words that the person obviously isn't saying with their mouth.
- Can someone refresh my memory and help with the warp speed calculations? Isn't each warp factor an increase in light speed, as WF 1 is the speed of light and WF 2 is twice the speed of light? Or is it a factor, as in each WF increase is an exponential increase?
I would think exponential, otherwise its still too slow:
If you've got 10 light years between you and your destination,
10 years (WF1), 5 (WF2), 3.3 (WF3), 2.5 (WF4), 2 years (WF5) is still pretty non-functional for a large political entity.
Warp speeds have always been presented as an exponential thing, even in TOS... though exactly what rate that graph jumps is different between every series, and even episodes within the same series.
In universe there is apparently a significant reorg of the chart between the TOS and TNG era, as Voyager presented Warp 10 as a state of infinite velocity where the traveler is at all points in the universe at once, while TOS and TAS had a number of ships appear that could go anywhere from warp 13 to 30.
I think Warp Factor and Warp Speed are both shortenings of the same 'Time-Warp Factor' describing the function of the engines.
In-universe, the difference between TOS warp ratings and TNG warp ratings is a difference in the central equation used to calculate warp factor against resultant velocity (adopted in-universe in 2312). The end result is an equation that results in TNG warp evening out to faster than TOS', hitting infinity at warp 10.
With wf being 'warp factor' and c being the speed of light, TOS warp speed is calculated thusly: v = (wf^3)*c and TNG's warp speed is: v = (wf^(10/3))*c
Out of universe, it was apparently Gene's idea, because disliked writers' tendency to introduce higher and higher warp speeds to introduce tension in the story.
In universe, we actually have a lot of examples of ships going at 'warp speed' in order to remain stationary - and apparently there's a lot of other factors of subspace, space debris, gas nebulae, etc, that also impact warp speed.
Yeah, it used to be IIRC from the TNG tech manual (or possibly an old FASA RPG book) that the old scale was to the power of 3 (so Warp 3 was 27c) and the new one was logarithmic with Warp 10 equal to infinite speed. Later on I believe it was established that you turn into an amphibian and mate with your commanding officer if you reach it.
warboss wrote: Yeah, it used to be IIRC from the TNG tech manual (or possibly an old FASA RPG book) that the old scale was to the power of 3 (so Warp 3 was 27c) and the new one was logarithmic with Warp 10 equal to infinite speed. Later on I believe it was established that you turn into an amphibian and mate with your commanding officer if you reach it.
That episode was removed from canon.
... but Lower Decks seems to indicate someone else did it.
My personal fan theory is that the mating took place in all space and time simultaneously and that their clearly genetically superior coffee addicted descendants were the actual predecessors of the Voth explaining the similarity in DNA with normal earthlings. It's a work in progress though...
warboss wrote: Yeah, it used to be IIRC from the TNG tech manual (or possibly an old FASA RPG book) that the old scale was to the power of 3 (so Warp 3 was 27c) and the new one was logarithmic with Warp 10 equal to infinite speed. Later on I believe it was established that you turn into an amphibian and mate with your commanding officer if you reach it.
That episode was removed from canon.
... but Lower Decks seems to indicate someone else did it.
Could they not have removed Voyager from canon entirely
My personal fan theory is that the mating took place in all space and time simultaneously and that their clearly genetically superior coffee addicted descendants were the actual predecessors of the Voth explaining the similarity in DNA with normal earthlings. It's a work in progress though...
Don Qui Hotep wrote:How so? Did a later episode write it out, or was it by executive fiat?
I stand corrected!
There's a later Voyager episode called 'Day of Honor' that people used to cite as decanonizing Threshold because Paris said he never traveled at transwarp speeds - actually he says he never 'navigated a transwarp conduit' or something to that effect.
So... alas, Threshold remains canon. Along with Paris and Janeway's salamander babies.
So... alas, Threshold remains canon. Along with Paris and Janeway's salamander babies.
Look on the bright side. At least it wasn't Data and Picard who went Warp 10... although that would explain their sudden closeness in Picard though if they had a prior romatic Salamander/Apple II relationship... hrmmm...
It's ok when its got a story to tell in the episode which isn't built entirely around a single gag reference to ST. It's almost as if there's two writing teams, one writing characters and story and the other mostly writing overly prolonged gag references that fill an entire episode.
It stuffers through the whole thing with rushed delivery, every scene and character feels like they are rushing their lines or that its been sped up by a few milliseconds.
There's some good elements in there, but it just seems to get hung up with its own jokes. It feels like late season Futurama or the many "Family Guy" style comedies. When they can push out a story driven episode it comes together, but the majority is stand alone jokes and overrun themes.
Perhaps a second season might help it find its feet, though I think not. It's not bad, its just not quite as good as it perhaps could have been and its a different style of comedy to the sort that I enjoy/engage with.
If you do like Below Decks, check out Final Space. Very much a long running story rather than episodic. Same style humor/animation. Surprisingly powerful emotional moments. Really can’t wait for a third season.
My pet theory is that Warp Factor is a measure of input rather than output.
It's how many times you've folded space around the ship, Warp 1, folded it one time. Warp 4, 4 times. Kind of like RPMs in your engine or fuel consumption, vs your actual speed.
How fast that makes you go depends on subspace conditions and suchwot, so Warp 4 might get you somewhere real soon in one episode, or take weeks in another.
That way Warp Speed is exactly as fast as the plot requires.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: My pet theory is that Warp Factor is a measure of input rather than output.
It's how many times you've folded space around the ship, Warp 1, folded it one time. Warp 4, 4 times. Kind of like RPMs in your engine or fuel consumption, vs your actual speed.
How fast that makes you go depends on subspace conditions and suchwot, so Warp 4 might get you somewhere real soon in one episode, or take weeks in another.
That way Warp Speed is exactly as fast as the plot requires.
So basically like travelling through the warp in 40k but without navigators? STD fidget spinning being the exception with Stamets and the space bear of course...
Kid_Kyoto wrote: My pet theory is that Warp Factor is a measure of input rather than output.
It's how many times you've folded space around the ship, Warp 1, folded it one time. Warp 4, 4 times. Kind of like RPMs in your engine or fuel consumption, vs your actual speed.
How fast that makes you go depends on subspace conditions and suchwot, so Warp 4 might get you somewhere real soon in one episode, or take weeks in another.
That way Warp Speed is exactly as fast as the plot requires.
So basically like travelling through the warp in 40k but without navigators? STD fidget spinning being the exception with Stamets and the space bear of course...
Not quite. 40K warp travel involves entering a different reality.
In Star Trek, you bend the spacetime around your ship, whilst your ship travels at sublight speeds within that folded spacetime. If you have a piece of paper, call one corner A and the opposite corner B. With the paper laid flat, the shortest route between A and B is along the plane of the paper in a straight line. But if you grab those corners and start to fold them towards each other, you can now travel from one to the other in a shorter distance by leaving the plane of the paper, and therefore you can reduce the travel time between them. So your top speed is determined by how much you can bend spacetime around you. If you managed to completely fold it, so that the points are touching, you can travel instantaneously between two points, so that is likely to be the absolute limit of warp technology as once you achieve that, you can instantly travel anywhere in the universe.
Of course, this only really holds true for post-TOS films Trek. Star Trek IV throws out all pretences of warp drive having a limit when they use it to travel back in time.
Why is it the show is so prudish that no one on board the ship dies? I am sure there are enough 'redshirts' to kill off one every so often and not obliterate the crew. Was STE for a different type of audience? The original Star Trek had crewman die in the first 30 seconds of some episodes.
MDSW wrote: Why is it the show is so prudish that no one on board the ship dies? I am sure there are enough 'redshirts' to kill off one every so often and not obliterate the crew. Was STE for a different type of audience? The original Star Trek had crewman die in the first 30 seconds of some episodes.
Smaller crew compliment (80?), and apparently the writers had most of them named at the start.
Why is it the show is so prudish that no one on board the ship dies? I am sure there are enough 'redshirts' to kill off one every so often and not obliterate the crew. Was STE for a different type of audience? The original Star Trek had crewman die in the first 30 seconds of some episodes.
..."He's dead, Jim..."
Dozens died but I think that was during the Xindi arc/season. Perhaps they do (I don't recall myself) and reference it in a damage/casualty report but don't necessarily show it gratuitously onscreen. Unlike STD and Picard, they didn't typically do it for shock value.
Maybe there will be an upcoming episode where they milk the emotional value of a dead crewmember, and probably rather way over the top, but rightfully so, I guess given the small crew and their mission and such.
I am only about halfway through season 2, so nobody spoil it for me!!
MDSW wrote: Maybe there will be an upcoming episode where they milk the emotional value of a dead crewmember, and probably rather way over the top, but rightfully so, I guess given the small crew and their mission and such.
I am only about halfway through season 2, so nobody spoil it for me!!
I know Tripp mourns a lost subordinate but I don't recall what season it was or in which encounter she died.
MDSW wrote: Maybe there will be an upcoming episode where they milk the emotional value of a dead crewmember, and probably rather way over the top, but rightfully so, I guess given the small crew and their mission and such.
I am only about halfway through season 2, so nobody spoil it for me!!
I know Tripp mourns a lost subordinate but I don't recall what season it was or in which encounter she died.
Spoiler:
I think it's Season 3, I remember it was difficult for him because it reminded him of his sister who died in the Xindi attack. I just watched the show a few months ago so it's fresher in my memory. Incidentally, that's why I like that they don't kill randos throughout the first and second season; Season 3 is such a dark turn and it lands much more effectively.
Of course, this only really holds true for post-TOS films Trek. Star Trek IV throws out all pretences of warp drive having a limit when they use it to travel back in time.
A better explanation of what I was trying to say, thanks.
As for warp and time travel it was a feature of TOS too. And they actually set it up. In one episode the Enterprise is knocked away at high speed and they discover when they stop it's 3 days earlier. Kirk say something like, we should keep this in mind for later.
Then a few episodes later they time travel to the 60s for a back-door pilot for Mission Earth.
Yep Original Series established Time Travel as a thing and, interestingly considering all the random stuff they got up too in the Original Series that never stuck; Time Travel did stick. It's used in TNG and other series at least once or more and First Contact features it as the core part of the film.
But, if I remember properly, Time travel itself was never of purpose or every rarely done, it was always an accient. Except Movie 4 i think. Atleast the main characters never chose time travel.
hotsauceman1 wrote: But, if I remember properly, Time travel itself was never of purpose or every rarely done, it was always an accient. Except Movie 4 i think. Atleast the main characters never chose time travel.
Sort of...
In Mission Earth the Enterprise is very definitely sent back in time to observe Earth's history. Something about how did Earth survive the Cold War.
By TNG time travel was common enough that people were trained for it, they had protocols and rules. Both DS9 and First Contact talk about it.
By Enterprise it was common enough that there was a temporal cold war going on... but let's not go there.
The problem with ST and time travel is that its so easy to do. In theory the Federation could have used it all the time for newly encountered races - pop back in time, set a few key elements up so that when the Federation does arrive in the future, the race is ready to join up.
The Borg or any military race, once finding Time Travel, should have used it extensively, they've no reason not too. Again, so long as their efforts focus on races and worlds that have no influence on their own time-line prior to the time travel event, they can just do whatever they want. Space creates huge barriers between worlds that allows you to mess with another worlds time-line without any (or very little) risk of a time paradox or blowback into yourself or your faction.
The Temporal Cold War in Enterprise "should" have happened in all the ages, it should have been a huge issue for the galaxy to contend with. Thing is its darn tricky to write into a series that isn't built on time travel. So in general it gets rolled out every so often, but is generally avoided at all costs by most races that learn of it.
Picard and other high ranking starfleet captains are clearly well aware of how to perform time travel and most of the bridge crew of most of the key Enterprise ships are clearly well aware of the mechanics.
It's the kind of thing that works in an "alien of the week" show, but fails when you try and take that same show and make it into a more serious long running story ark show. If anything I'd have welcomed Q doing a whole. "Oh we let you do that but we did it not you we just didn't tell you and enjoyed playing; but no you can't just do it whenever you want" kind of things
I know Tripp mourns a lost subordinate but I don't recall what season it was or in which encounter she died.
Spoiler:
I think it's Season 3, I remember it was difficult for him because it reminded him of his sister who died in the Xindi attack. I just watched the show a few months ago so it's fresher in my memory. Incidentally, that's why I like that they don't kill randos throughout the first and second season; Season 3 is such a dark turn and it lands much more effectively.
Thanks for the refresher! I might actually rewatch ENT this year. Around 4-5 years ago, my desire to watch it from beginning to end for the first time (I bowed out of regular viewing of it during its original second season run when it was put up against SG-1) is what got me back into online Trek fandom. I then followed it up with a DS9 full rewatch and selected viewings from the other series.
The main issue with time travel is that once you have it, you have ALWAYS had it (because to a time traveller, "before" and "after" are irrelevant terms. They are only useful to someone stuck in the present, using a linear time model.)
Overread’s post gives me an idea; what if the Q continuum actually exist to stop that kind of stuff from happening? A bit like the Timelords are supposed to in Doctor Who; they took it upon themselves to stop the universe disappearing up it’s own butthole from people mucking around with time (ignoring the fact that they were the ones who started mucking around with time in the first place!)
That would provide some nice development for the Q, beyond “doing stuff you mere mortals can’t understand” (which looks suspiciously like nothing) and “occasionally one of us is a narcissistic dick”.
I think the core problem with the Q doing that is that whilst they started as a powerful Judge like entity in the first episodes of TNG, they fast became a comic relief character through most interactions with a touch of "lessons of humanity or something" at the very end. Mostly because the Q we meet is very jovial and childish at times.
The Q, to me, are a recreation of the powerful creatures the Original Series team encountered several times in spirit; with a touch more seriousness and larger scale impacts.
Q did get some more serious story lines in Voyager. However that mostly just reinforced the point that the majority of the Q are focused on their own universe and its happenings.
I agree they could be a great counterbalance for things like time travel and alien races getting above themselves, but I don't think they've got anywhere near the backing to make that seem suitable for them.
Trek has way too many "godlike" entities that not only don't seem to interact with each other but also never do or even show up when they really should.
Every so often they show up (for an episode) as guardians of this, that or the other but galaxy threatening stuff - nah they can't be bothered
Of course one of the only (sickening) explanations for Burnham is that she is one of them - if not love for one of them to pop in and mess with her.
The Voyager version of the Q was IMO (in keeping with much of the show) dull and tedious.
The Voyager version of the Q was IMO (in keeping with much of the show) dull and tedious.
There's something to be said for being consistent!
Q clearly being a a reference back to the original series and played for comic relief has never really made me try and logically integrate him into the universe at large, I don't think the Ques necessarily need a clear purpose, the other races don't have one after all!
Did they ever formally integrate the Qs with the various god-like beings of TOS, or just leave it for us to make assumptions.
Honestly I am of the mindset that it was budgets rather than any high-minded philosophical thoughts that led to the number of god-like beings in TOS. A guy who waves his arms or snaps his fingers is a lot cheaper to film than fleets of enemy warships or planet-destroying weapons.
They left it for assumptions, but a lot of the godlike beings just never get mentioned again. Don't forget Original series was very much of the "alien of the week" structure. They weren't really building long story lines or story arcs or character development as such. They didn't even really connect episodes together all that much. You could show much of the series out of order and not miss anything.
They didn't do proper stories until the films and then TNG and then again in DS9 (even then it took a season or two to really get going).
I think the one chance to make Q part of the universe was lose when they didn't develop Whoopy's character. Very early on she made a threatening pose toward Q and there was some kind of hint there that there was some rivalry between the races. However whilst Q developed, they never really took that same angle with Whoopy again. I wonder if in part it was because she was more of a guest actress rather than every week appearing (there's even quite a few set in Ten Forward where they use Data and other crew as staff behind the bar - she was never there all the time like Quark in DS9).
They probably realized that having a Q-level being on the ship would deflate the drama, so they dropped it and hoped the audience would forget. She still gets up to weird stuff, like in Yesterday’s Enterprise, or the Mark Twain episodes, but they made her a lot less mysterious.
As for the Q never being around when they are most needed...perhaps they are, but those are the times when they are the most subtle. Wouldn’t want the Federation to learn the wrong lessons.
Star Trek also built a coherent explanation for all the godlike beings, accidentally. We’ve seen beings “evolve” into energy beings or psychic races a number of times. We’ve seen beings in subspace dimensions that interact with the universe in mind-boggling ways. And most intelligent beings in the galaxy(?) share DNA, probably some neurobiology, so could conceivably develop along similar paths. The Star Trek universe is littered with remains of great civilizations that either died out or somehow ceased their biological existence, so there must be something going on in the other planes of existence that appeals.
I just watched the DS9 episode "Return to Grace", reminded me what a brilliant character Gul Dukat is! He really does steal the show on every episode he's in.
What I love about him is that, no matter the setback or scale of the task ahead of him, he always bets on himself and is confident in his ability to overcome it. Take on the whole Klingon Empire alone? Yea sure, they won't know what hit them!
I’d say Dukat is definitely not just an interesting character, but an essential one.
Whether an antagonist or protagonist, working alone or with others, he convinces as a single entity.
Yes, he is occasionally contrary - but through good writing and character development. His actions can be contrary because Dukat is contrary.
Compare to Janeway, who as noted elsewhere in this thread isn’t a terribly consistent character, with her decisions and actions being driven entirely by whatever the plot requires.
I think the core thing about Dukat is that he is at all times playing a Long Game. When considered that way, you see he’s only doing X, because it’ll serve him in achieving Y later on. He gives aid, because he knows it generates a favour, or at least gets someone’s guard down.
We see much the same in Quark and Garak - just manifested in different ways.
It does dip into real world politics a bit, but I trust my fellow Dakkanauts know not to get into that. One this is Dakka, and we Don’t Discuss That. Two it’s just a dude’s opinion, and without him amongst us there’s no point in discussing it further, as he can neither expand or explain further.
Annnd I just tried watching Star Trek Into Darkness....
I think I'm going to have to order some kind of blueray complete movie set of the original films or something to clean my head because MY GODS the writing its its its...
rant active:
Spoiler:
First why the freaking heck do you hide your starship under the sea when you have planet to space capable shuttlecraft. For what purpose did you put your starship under the sea on a primitive world that was about to explode? WHY JUST WHY. You didn't even make the exist some awe inspiring new age CGI that blew away the mind. It was just done for no reason other than to have scotty complain about seasalt or something...
WHY Does Kirk even command a starship? I'm serious he's got one person (Pike) who keeps defending him as this great person, but Kirk honestly doesn't really do much at all that's that great. A few gut feelings, but he clearly has no experience, no skill and no diplomatic elements to him. Time and again Spock outclasses him on almost every point. Kirk is still an 18-23 year old fresh out of school who hasn't really worked his way up the ranks or anything. The original Kirk was a rouge, but he'd at least worked his way up the ranks; he'd proven himself, he'd worked under Pike extensively. He had experience and a past and a history within a starship to draw from. About the only part this new one has is every so often we get a "waking up with aliens in my bed" scene; though we never see any of the romancing that Kirk was famous for in getting them into bed to start with.
McCoy isn't even a character. He's been demoted to almost red shirt levels of inclusion. Rolled out for an eye brow rise or a few lines here and there, but by and large he's a background extra who ever so often appears (or his hands appear) and then vanishes. He also randomly keeps appearing on the bridge for no reason.
Do the Klingons even feature again? A whole team is slaughtered in a backwater region (why is there such a large number in such an empty area?) and there doesn't seem to be any kind of response at all.
In the end this feels like a series of scenes written and then somehow cobbled together with some bad superglue. Quite a few clearly reference injokes or historical moments, but they are so haphazardly lumped in.
Take the dissection of the torpedo. You've two science officers, one of which is a weapons officer* soo why is the (questionable loyalty) weapons officer and your doctor dissecting the torpedo on a planet?
Well likely because they are again trying to recreate something from ST's past, but without any sensible logical reasoning behind it to setup the moment. It just happens. Are we to believe that the whole ship hasn't got a single person other than the doctor who can perform basic maintenance on a mechanical component?
And again poor McCoy is rolled out for a scene, used and dumped.
Oh and on complaints why the HECK was the music so insanely powerful when Khan first appeared? At that moment we didn't know who he was, what he was or anything. He was just a person; but with all that menacing evil and powerful music they might as well have put huge blinking lights and signs around him "I'm the evil guy".
Oh also the Enterprise drops out of warp very suddenly, without planning and without warning and yet they are within range of the Klingon world? It's almost like if they hadn't broken down out of warp they'd have gone right past or into the planet.....
Sadly the oddities and plot gaps and the fact that our valiant leader isn't even much of a leader or anything; they all sort of come together to spoil it even as a general action flick let alone a ST action flick.
*who just randomly walked onto your ship; got found out to be there under false pretence by Spock, but left to do whatever she wanted. She also randomly got into a shuttlecraft to strip?
Do the Klingons even feature again? A whole team is slaughtered in a backwater region (why is there such a large number in such an empty area?) and there doesn't seem to be any kind of response at all.
That backwater is Qonos. The Klingon home world. In a time where the Klingon's the Federation were at their throats. The fact only a few Klingon's showed up for this and that it didn't spark war immediately like the big bad wanted is only slightly less absurd than the idea that Khan transported himself from Earth to Qonos.
So yes. It is actually worse than you think XD
Cumberbach's performance is the only part of Into Darkness worth praising. I know some people hated it, but I thought he captured the low level menace of Khan well and was the only part of the movie worthy of praise. The action set pieces were okayish I guess, but the plot was so bad it's hard to appreciate them.
He added “They discouraged you from being the geek in the room, and so it was always like looking over the fence at the public school when you were in Catholic school and saying, ‘they look like they’re having more fun.'”
This line does not shock me.
It's amazing, for all the praise it gets from some fans, how unfun Voyager is. All the time. Voyager seems almost constantly set against having fun in any capacity. It's completely different in that regard from TOS, TNG, and DS9. None of those shows were afraid of showing characters and crews at their silliest and most light hearted, indulging in the eccentricities of the cast members and their characters. From Data's having a pet cat, to Worf's romantic idealism of Klingon culture, to the Kirk/Spock/McCoy bromance, to Sisko's fascination with a dead sport few have played in hundreds of years. That just wasn't a thing in Voyager. In Voyager it was almost constant life or death or moral quagmire. Only the Doctor or Paris ever really got to indulge in the series' sillier side and it's no coincidence imo than the Doctor was the best part of Voyager and Paris' easily one of it's most well developed and engaging characters (a shame he constantly forgot his character development when the plot demanded it).
Finding out the writing room was anti-fun surprises me not one bit. Voyager was an anti-fun series that could never let itself go and be less than super duper serial.
Yeah backwater region of the homeworld, which is why I was so confused at why they didn't respond. And yeah I'd forgotten about him randomly beaming himself there.
I do agree Khan was great, he oozed a level of sophistication and maturity that almost all around him (barring spock every so often) lacked. I think his acting of menace is good, but the scenes and background music overblew it and the way he's presented overblows it. It's not so much his performance, its everything around him (which is almost everything barring great big "I'm probably RELALY BAD" neon flashing signs and sirens).
As for Spot, I never saw it as humour that Data had a cat, but I do get your meaning on fun in the writing team and the lack of fun spilling into Voyager. I guess their hope was that they'd somehow manage to capture DS9 at its most serious with TNG's explore and discover new races elements or such. Honestly I did and do enjoy Voyager, it just has the issue that its a step backward in a series that took huge steps forward in DS9. That said I still hold it up higher than many of the series that have come after (though I will say that the way they ended Voyager felt forced and rushed in a -get them home and kill all the borg in one go etc.. kinda way
Overread wrote: I do agree Khan was great, he oozed a level of sophistication and maturity that almost all around him (barring spock every so often) lacked. I think his acting of menace is good, but the scenes and background music overblew it and the way he's presented overblows it. It's not so much his performance, its everything around him (which is almost everything barring great big "I'm probably RELALY BAD" neon flashing signs and sirens).
I get that. The film definitely kind of ran on a 'You know Khan is in this one right wink wink nudge nudge' thing, and it detracts from the movie as a whole.
As for Spot, I never saw it as humour that Data had a cat, but I do get your meaning on fun in the writing team and the lack of fun spilling into Voyager.
Yeah, I think I worded that bit poorly.
The article itself just words it better. I totally get what the guy is saying when he says he felt Voyager was oppressive and refused to cut loose in the writing room. The series had that air on screen to, like it just wasn't willing to let itself go. Meanwhile, we've got DS9 episodes like the House of Quark and Take me out to the Holosuite, which indulged the character's eccentric qualities and even made them the entire point of episodes. It's silly in a way, but then you carry it on to episodes like It's Only a Paper Moon, a deeply emotional episode about Nog recovering from war injuries and moving on from trauma, that was set in a holosuit program based on Frank Sinatra! It's just goofy, and fun and it's a quality that's almost entirely absent from Voyager, Enterprise and Discovery. It's those moments of levity and the willingness to let the characters be a bit goofy that I think really makes the casts of TNG and DS9 stand out in the ways that Voyager's cast didn't. It fleshes the characters out in a way that the constant barrage of 'this is serious' doesn't in later Trek shows.
I think Season 3 of Enterprise took the concept of "ship lost in a strange part of space" to its logical conclusion, and kind of makes all of Voyager redundant. Look at how badly the NX-01 gets treated throughout the season. It really feels like they're out in the middle of nowhere, without any backup. And they haven't even left the Alpha Quadrant!
The only real "we are roughing it" part was Neelix and the fresh cooking and, honestly they seemed to eat really well. The roughing was more "its not all replicated".
We don't really see them have to strip whole segments of the ships quarters to make room for a huge growing room to provide food; or see them slumming it with reduced heat/food for long periods to conserve power etc... In general so long as the alien of the week isn't attacking them, they live reasonably comfortably.
Granted once you've got replicators you only need power to have most of the resources you need for a comfortable life. I can well see how things like that can be darn hard for writers to write around because, it just makes anything you need within most circumstances.
Heck we don't really see Voyager take long lasting damage. All her fights and battles she should have been banged up with rips, tears and holes along with patched in bits of random tech and parts from other ships, salvage and what they can trade for to keep her together. But again if you've got a replicator, then so long as you've power you just make spares.
There was, of course, movements against all that in the studio. The Year of Hell two-parter was originally, on conception supposed to be the Year of hell.
Although, this might be a good thing too, that that didn't happen. There's probably a chain of causality that says if we actually did get that sort of take on Voyager, Ron Moore would have never been able to do Battlestar Galactica with the same concepts.
Compel wrote: There was, of course, movements against all that in the studio. The Year of Hell two-parter was originally, on conception supposed to be the Year of hell.
Although, this might be a good thing too, that that didn't happen. There's probably a chain of causality that says if we actually did get that sort of take on Voyager, Ron Moore would have never been able to do Battlestar Galactica with the same concepts.
Holy crap would that have been better for televised science fiction as a whole! Without Ron Moore’s edge lord BSG, we wouldn’t have had Stargate Universe, Star Trek Picard or Discovery, science fiction TV That is fun sometimes rather than just depressing...
What’s the current take on replicator technology? At one time my understanding was it’s not creating something from nothing, but rather they’ve got some vats of raw materials in the basement and the replicators are just recombining the stuff into new molecules and assembling it.
Well, the guy from Deuce Bigalo and the previous Mummy franchise literally said to the Orion lady in STD s3 that the apple she was eating was made of their excrement so there is that. I don't know the context of the conversation though as it was just a clip.
Why is it the show is so prudish that no one on board the ship dies? I am sure there are enough 'redshirts' to kill off one every so often and not obliterate the crew. Was STE for a different type of audience? The original Star Trek had crewman die in the first 30 seconds of some episodes.
..."He's dead, Jim..."
Dozens died but I think that was during the Xindi arc/season. Perhaps they do (I don't recall myself) and reference it in a damage/casualty report but don't necessarily show it gratuitously onscreen. Unlike STD and Picard, they didn't typically do it for shock value.
Yep... I am midway through season 3 with the Xindi arc.,,
Spoiler:
They are blowing up and killing folks left and right. All is right in the ST universe now.
Heck we don't really see Voyager take long lasting damage. All her fights and battles she should have been banged up with rips, tears and holes along with patched in bits of random tech and parts from other ships, salvage and what they can trade for to keep her together. But again if you've got a replicator, then so long as you've power you just make spares.
This is pretty obvious but worth noting, it comes down to the change in how Voyager was made with models and practical effects in the last 90s and BSG in the 2000s with computer animation.
Changing the ship in any way required changing the one and only shooting model of it and creating new footage for every orbit, every maneuver, every time it fired a weapon rather than doing it once and reusing footage throughout the show.
An especially egregious example was when DS9 blew up the Defiant (spoilers!) but immediately replaced it with an identical ship that even had the same registry number! Not even an A on the end.
(If I was going for my no-prize I would say it was part of a deception to hide Federation losses.)
However BSG with its virtual Galactica could damage it and maintain consistency throughout the following episodes. So we saw it burnt to a crisp at the start of season... 3? and it remained a floating cinder for the rest of the show.
It had real potential for being a new angle on Star Trek.
TNG as a more mature take on the basic setup (less Captain fist fighting/bonking his way to galactic unity).
DS9 as something a bit more “real”, as in “hey, your actions have consequences you’ll have to deal with it”.
Voyager? TNG but......like, way over there. What a waste of potential.
Imagine if we got a BSG type setup. Have the Caretaker’s array be a sort of ship’s graveyard. Something in the transportation thing damaging the systems of older ships. Voyager’s neural gel providing protection.
From there, a tag tag BSG type fleet seeking the Alpha Quadrant. You could’ve had anything from the preceding series dropped in. Have a sort of Federation forged across their ongoing journey. Using the skills and aptitude’s of the constituent species to aid progress (such as Ferengi to ensure you don’t get ripped off in trade, Romulans for detached scientific specialities etc.
Even just the blended Federation/Maquis crew concept was utterly squandered, as Everyone Just Played Nice Because Reasons.
They could even have had a schism within the fleet, as some just can’t bear to be all Happy Clappy, considering the Federation Ideals to be a hindrance compared to Necessity.
But no. We just got a mix of “Gerrof Moi Laaaand” stories, bizarre side stories (Devolution Babies) and a crew which just doesn’t grow. Poor old Harry Kim. Does well under extremely trying circumstances - and no promotion for him. Even Worf, who jeopardised his career got promotions.
warboss wrote: Well, the guy from Deuce Bigalo and the previous Mummy franchise literally said to the Orion lady in STD s3 that the apple she was eating was made of their excrement so there is that. I don't know the context of the conversation though as it was just a clip.
Isn't that a bit of a 'meats back on the menu boys' moment though? It makes total sense for a 21st century person to find that disguising, but to people who had been using replicators to recycle waste for centuries it would be completely normal and mundane. In fact they would probably be offended by the suggestion of throwing away all that organic matter!
warboss wrote: Well, the guy from Deuce Bigalo and the previous Mummy franchise literally said to the Orion lady in STD s3 that the apple she was eating was made of their excrement so there is that. I don't know the context of the conversation though as it was just a clip.
Isn't that a bit of a 'meats back on the menu boys' moment though? It makes total sense for a 21st century person to find that disguising, but to people who had been using replicators to recycle waste for centuries it would be completely normal and mundane.
In fact they would probably be offended by the suggestion of throwing away all that organic matter!
Or they just don't know/think about it. Human waste and animal waste gets thrown on the farm fields every year, yet there are many people today who have no idea that either practice ever happens*; or just don't like the thought of it and don't think about it. Plus unless you're a farmer it likely never comes up in conversation so, again, many people are blissfully ignorant/ignoring it.
*they might know that "muck" is put on fields but won't really know what muck is
What’s the difference between using poop to fertilize an apple tree, and breaking down the poop at the molecular level and manually rearranging the atoms into an apple yourself?
AduroT wrote: What’s the difference between using poop to fertilize an apple tree, and breaking down the poop at the molecular level and manually rearranging the atoms into an apple yourself?
Only the apple that naturally grew has the added potential bonus of a free worm inside when you bite into it.
“Our latest estimate is that no less than 32% of Starfleet personnel have been replaced by holograms, parallel universe clones, energy beings curious about humanity, and guilt-ridden doppelgängers.”
Did we ever find out why the Prophets created a Wormhole between the two quadrants?
I don't think we ever really learn that much about them. I think in part because the story tries to preserve the balance between science and religion regarding them. So they aren't studied; neck not even interacted with as starfleet normally does. It's subtle (until the very very last episode) in general. I think in the end its more a case that the wormhole is so useful that starfleet doesn't want to push boundaries.
In the end its their home and it seems that there's some benefit to them in retaining the link; what it is and why they do it is one of the mysteries of space
Assuming they built the wormhole in the first place. I’ve always read it as the “celestial temple” is a construct inside the wormhole, so it could just have been “hey, here’s a comfy looking spatial anomaly in which to build our home”.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: “Our latest estimate is that no less than 32% of Starfleet personnel have been replaced by holograms, parallel universe clones, energy beings curious about humanity, and guilt-ridden doppelgängers.”
Haha this sounds about right. The lack of bio-security protocols in Starfleet is actually pretty shocking!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Did we ever find out why the Prophets created a Wormhole between the two quadrants?
No direct answer is ever given. I suppose the cheeky answer is that if they hadn't, there would be no plot, so of course they did! The Prophets are wise indeed XD
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Jadenim wrote: Assuming they built the wormhole in the first place. I’ve always read it as the “celestial temple” is a construct inside the wormhole, so it could just have been “hey, here’s a comfy looking spatial anomaly in which to build our home”.
Last episode of season 1 does have Keiko state the wormhole was artificially created.
Did we ever find out why the Prophets created a Wormhole between the two quadrants?
I don't think we ever really learn that much about them. I think in part because the story tries to preserve the balance between science and religion regarding them. So they aren't studied; neck not even interacted with as starfleet normally does. It's subtle (until the very very last episode) in general. I think in the end its more a case that the wormhole is so useful that starfleet doesn't want to push boundaries.
In the end its their home and it seems that there's some benefit to them in retaining the link; what it is and why they do it is one of the mysteries of space
Given the technobabble 'non-linear existence' angle, future Sisko could have asked them to (after all, his being born depends on it existing), and thus it non-linearly always happened.
If it helps illustrate the mind-bending timey-whimey aspect of it, his 'ascended' self would have been present for the beginning on the series when the 'prophets' quiz him on linear existence. Perhaps even participating.
Did we ever find out why the Prophets created a Wormhole between the two quadrants?
I don't think we ever really learn that much about them. I think in part because the story tries to preserve the balance between science and religion regarding them. So they aren't studied; neck not even interacted with as starfleet normally does. It's subtle (until the very very last episode) in general. I think in the end its more a case that the wormhole is so useful that starfleet doesn't want to push boundaries.
In the end its their home and it seems that there's some benefit to them in retaining the link; what it is and why they do it is one of the mysteries of space
Given the technobabble 'non-linear existence' angle, future Sisko could have asked them to (after all, his being born depends on it existing), and thus it non-linearly always happened.
If it helps illustrate the mind-bending timey-whimey aspect of it, his 'ascended' self would have been present for the beginning on the series when the 'prophets' quiz him on linear existence. Perhaps even participating.
This is a really interesting interpretation. He's giving himself the push he knows he needed back then so he'd stay at the station. I like it.
Ok, this one is just a funny pic that brought a trek related smile to my face which has been pretty rare over the past few years (and in 2021 in general frankly). It's probably old and some of you may have seen it already but it's the first time I've come across it despite surfing various parts of the internet for trek stuff since 1994.
Watching the flip-through I'm reminded of my worst hate with books - people who design them who do double page spreads. Unless its a sown spine made of a material 10000times stronger than steel its going t obreak if you actually try to view the doublepage spread as a doublepage spread without the middle being sliced out.
That said I've fond memories (and still have somewhere) a bunch of the old ST collection magazine (way back from the 90s). It's probably suffered in storage and from my youthful self and being read; but darn it I'm tempted for £15. Even though I've not been into ST for a quite a while in a big way.
My main problem with those books (and I own two of them) is how far they go out of their way not to add any “speculation”. The TNG Technical manual is full of ideas and explanations that never made it into the show. Mr Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise, the old Starfleet Technical Manual, even the starship Spotter, all added to the lore. Some of the material was later overwritten by the shows, but it added a lot of depth to the universe and value to the books.
These shipyard books take no risks. They add no information that you can’t find on a site like Memory Alpha, no insight, almost nothing but straight-forward screen canon.
Even worse are the number of hilarious mistakes, especially mislabeled parts in the sparsely-labeled orthographic views. When you only point out five spots of interest in a ship’s hull, and one of them is a collimated phaser array on a ship with visible phaser banks... that’s just embarrassing.
No matter what the quality is, at that price, it would be rude to not give them a look. Especially considering that I recently purchased the two Haynes manuals, so I'm quite in the zone for that kind of stuff.
Some tidbits i heard(Im going to use character names because that is easier for me and so people understand without knowing all the actors, but i am talking about the Actors.
Janeway and Kes where best friends before the show, but when they wanted to bring in a hot lady, they where going to dump Harry KIM, but he was on one of those "Hottest men in TV" so that saved him. So they dropped Kes, JAneway hated this, and therefore was really mean to 7of9 the entire time
Chakotay kept wanting out so demanded more and more money, which he got, EVERYTIME, leading to him being resented by everyone.
7of9's suit was laborous to put on and off, and because unions say whenever the actor needs to go, they go. which would lead to hours of time being wasted when she would need to go, leading to her being resented.
Everyone hated The Doctor.
The Native American consultant was a Jewish conman.
LordofHats wrote: I'd have to say everyone hated the Doctor? Really? That's surprising to me. He seemed like one of the few people on the show who ever had fun.
Did they hate the actor or the character? Both? Is Richard Picardo secretly a total asshat
I’ve only interacted with him a couple times at conventions, but he struck me as abrasive.
LordofHats wrote: Aw... that's disappointing... Never meet your childhood heroes indeed XD
This is why I rarely bother to look behind the scenes at films and such. Generally speaking you always find the drama. Plus there's made-up drama where small comments get blown out of proportion years later or someone has an axe to grind so makes other things sound worse than they are. Plus there's the selective nature of any documentary. Just like the ones that come out just before a film launches where every single actor loves the film and its the best most creative and amazing thing they've ever (or will ever) work on; through to the tear-down where its the worst thing they ever did and all the warning signs were there and they were not listened too when they pointed it out etc...
That said I'm always a little surprised how much variation there is in actor wages, how one actor can end up getting paid way above the others even though they are essentially doing the very same job to the same level of quality. Granted its easier to understand when you've big name actors where the studio isn't just paying for them, but their extensive fanbase that comes along with them. Though I tend to associate that with the "big" hollywood names.
Also lets not forget actors are people whom our first impressions of are, essentially, lies. Even if we remember that they are actors playing a role its still a first impression and we make all kinds of assumptions long long before we might see any of the person behind the mask that is the character, the make up and all.
That or he only really had the magic in him once. You see that a few times with creative projects. Sometimes all the things just align at the right moment and the right time for the market and the right marketing and the right everything and its a blast. Then you can never really live up to it again
Didn't Corden and Horne have an awful sketch show after Gavin and Stacey? Caught it a couple of times and just noped out and changed the channel.
Sketches were on the quality of bad Little Britain (which isn't great even at its best) and made worse by Corden just being loud and obnoxious in every single one I saw.
Certainly didn't help that you had That Mitchell and Webb Look, possibly the best sketch show since Monty Python, still going at the time. A show which managed to combine silly nonsensical material like Numberwang! with some genuinely moving stuff like their final sketch involving an old Sherlock Holmes and Watson.
LordofHats wrote: Aw... that's disappointing... Never meet your childhood heroes indeed XD
This is why I rarely bother to look behind the scenes at films and such. Generally speaking you always find the drama. Plus there's made-up drama where small comments get blown out of proportion years later or someone has an axe to grind so makes other things sound worse than they are. Plus there's the selective nature of any documentary. Just like the ones that come out just before a film launches where every single actor loves the film and its the best most creative and amazing thing they've ever (or will ever) work on; through to the tear-down where its the worst thing they ever did and all the warning signs were there and they were not listened too when they pointed it out etc...
That said I'm always a little surprised how much variation there is in actor wages, how one actor can end up getting paid way above the others even though they are essentially doing the very same job to the same level of quality. Granted its easier to understand when you've big name actors where the studio isn't just paying for them, but their extensive fanbase that comes along with them. Though I tend to associate that with the "big" hollywood names.
Also lets not forget actors are people whom our first impressions of are, essentially, lies. Even if we remember that they are actors playing a role its still a first impression and we make all kinds of assumptions long long before we might see any of the person behind the mask that is the character, the make up and all.
Not to get too far away from Star Trek, but that's why I've always been interested in film and television from a production point of view. The actor, writer, director collaborate to create a character, but you also have costuming, hair and make up, sound design, etc. etc. etc. Team effort all the way. I think it's a miracle that any film gets finished, honestly. So hearing that an actor is a jerk doesn't really take away from my enjoyment of a piece, because I see a team effort on the screen. If anything it makes me appreciate everyone else more for having to deal with them.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The biggest shocker to me was that they bothered having a “Native American Consultant”.
I'm not, particularly. Lots of shows have them on paper, though I'm even less surprised that the one they had wasn't 'authentic,' given the rather bland focus on schoolyard mysticism, facial tattoos and spirit animals.
It amused me when Stargate Sg-1 ran with the concept and made O'Neill an Air Force consultant on Wormhole Extreme. That whole bit was layers of industry and inside jokes.
It was also one of those moments where he creepily reminded me of my father, a military officer himself. The episodes where he's a jokey, snarky, 'screw the regs' Colonel never worked for me much (in terms of believability he was pure Macgyver wearing a spare officer's jacket), but when he did behave like an actual military officer it worked well.
Nothing too in-depth contents wise, but otherwise it’s perfectly lovely.
Yeah, nice looking books, but as has been said nothing in depth. Pretty coffee table books.
Littered with inaccuracies, though; you think that I don't know the difference between an RCS thruster and a phaser emitter? And don't try to tell me that some random panel line is a phaser strip, especially when there's a phaser emitter not too far away.
But, the most egregious mistake is the complete omission of the Akira class! It's even on the book cover! Someone done goofed...
I was listening to this podcast and, due to the recent death of Yaffet Koto, they gave the list of actors on the shortlist to play Picard. Some interesting names here that would have been very different captain Picards!
Patrick Stuart Yaffet Koto Mitchell Ryan Roy Thinnes Patrick Bauchau
Yeah, IIRC, Roddenberry really wanted Bauchau for it, and was not at all impressed when they cast a 'bald, middle-aged Englishman' (Stewart's own words) for the role.
insaniak wrote: Yeah, IIRC, Roddenberry really wanted Bauchau for it, and was not at all impressed when they cast a 'bald, middle-aged Englishman' (Stewart's own words) for the role.
My favorite story on that was from an early press conference introducing the new cast and a reporter asked about Stewart being bald something to the effect of "in the future won't they have a cure" and Stewart (maybe?) answered "in the future they won't care".
Which is about the most perfectly Star Trek answer someone could give. While Star Trek the show didn't always live up to its ideals behind the scenes, the whole Infinite Diversity in Infinity Combinations is a good aspirational goal. And it's kind of neat to look back and think about how attitudes on baldness and age changed since the 80s.
insaniak wrote: Yeah, IIRC, Roddenberry really wanted Bauchau for it, and was not at all impressed when they cast a 'bald, middle-aged Englishman' (Stewart's own words) for the role.
My favorite story on that was from an early press conference introducing the new cast and a reporter asked about Stewart being bald something to the effect of "in the future won't they have a cure" and Stewart (maybe?) answered "in the future they won't care".
Which is about the most perfectly Star Trek answer someone could give. While Star Trek the show didn't always live up to its ideals behind the scenes, the whole Infinite Diversity in Infinity Combinations is a good aspirational goal. And it's kind of neat to look back and think about how attitudes on baldness and age changed since the 80s.
When you watch TOS it's apparent that in the future no one cares about having perfect looking teeth. And then things changed the next generation...
The new uniforms are an improvement. Is the new female bumpy forehead alien of the week the Federation President? She seems to be in charge but I didn't watch season 3.
For those outside the US, is Netflix listed on the trailer anywhere? I think their initial deal was for three seasons so I'm curious if they reupped or if it'll be Para+ worldwide.
Also another big anomly/federation ending threat.
Lets see so far we have had
s1: end of all life throughout the entire known multiverse.
s2: End of all life in the galaxy
s3: End of al dilithium
s4: End of all life again maybe?
Season 1 was great because of the stakes where the war.
But now it feels all over the place, like a DM keeps throwing world ending plots for their players.
AduroT wrote: I wonder how the gravity is the fault of or otherwise related to Michael.
Well, the universe revolves around her according to canon. Clearly she must be a massive gravity well in disguise and even her spittle probably makes Nibbler's poop look like cotton candy.
AduroT wrote: I wonder how the gravity is the fault of or otherwise related to Michael.
Whatever happens I'm sure she'll start with a big impassioned speech to Saru's her crew to inspire them, and then she'll go and solve it all by herself because she's perfect and flawless and always wins at everything forever.
AduroT wrote: I wonder how the gravity is the fault of or otherwise related to Michael.
Whatever happens I'm sure she'll start with a big impassioned speech to Saru's her crew to inspire them, and then she'll go and solve it all by herself because she's perfect and flawless and always wins at everything forever.
Don't be so myopic. They alternate that with big impassioned affirming speeches where her tearful crew inspires her in a superficial moment of weakness... and then she goes to solve it all by herself.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also another big anomly/federation ending threat.
Lets see so far we have had
s1: end of all life throughout the entire known multiverse.
s2: End of all life in the galaxy
s3: End of al dilithium
s4: End of all life again maybe?
Season 1 was great because of the stakes where the war.
But now it feels all over the place, like a DM keeps throwing world ending plots for their players.
It's almost as if the people in charge of these shows are showing how they literally have no knowledge of what Star Trek even is. Just lots of guns and swords and explosions and vaping and whatever other modern cultural garbage they can think to shove in there. Give me ten minutes and I'll write a better show and I'll even keep Burnham as the captain (and improve her character 100 fold).
Well I haven't seen the Mandelorian, but my impression is that it is a lower stakes, character focused drama?
That would be difficult on a starship with loads of crew I guess.
It's only canon until no one gives a feth, which will be easy after this goes belly up. 4 seasons of utter schlock garbage on a service that I don't know how is still around.
BlackoCatto wrote: It's only canon until no one gives a feth, which will be easy after this goes belly up. 4 seasons of utter schlock garbage on a service that I don't know how is still around.
Meh Trek survived a dozen or more omnipotent godlike being from TOS, and the Temporal Cold War of Enterprise.
One random ship doing random stuff is easy to never refer to again.
The idea of canon is really interesting to me, it feels like a modern phenomena that arose (perhaps in no small part due to Stark Trek) from fandoms and nerd culture and conventions. I'm genuinely interested in the world of Trek circa 1996-2004 (yes, I'm including Enterprise; I don't like Rick Berman and I don't like the TNG movies but it really felt like they tried to make a Star Trek show, taking an interest in the founding of the Federation. There wasn't [much] fanservice [not that kind!] with cute winks and nods to side characters and small details. An example: In the Enterprise pilot, we find out out that "where no man has gone before" is Zefram Cochrane's commencement speech on the Warp Drive project. That's a detail that for me enriches the Universe. In Voyage Home, we see Nurse Chapel-turned Commander Chapel. That's a nice bit of character growth behind the scenes.
In contrast, the new stuff doesn't feel like people are meaningfully engaging with what has already been established. ST:Picard did not feel much like Star Trek at all to me, and I found the characters that did show up to be very different from their original incarnations. Example: the episode where Picard wears an eye-patch and tries to disguise himself to find the evil person that's ripping up ex-Borgs for their parts (graphic eye-stabbing scenes! Just what we want from our Star Trek show!). He puts down a character reference from Quark, which came across in the moment as a cute, wink reference (only the SUPERFANS will catch these five references in Star Trek Picard), not one that added depth to the story or the characters' relationships.
Canon is all made up anyway, so the viewer has total control over what they choose to include. The criteria I use is, "from a production side of things, did the people that have creative control make a meaningful effort to engage with and contribute to the work that came before them? Are they making interesting choices, or is it all just fanservice [not that kind!]?"
The new stuff doesn't feel very Trek to me, so I mostly ignore it.
Spoiler:
They killed Picard at the end of Season 1. Why would I keep watching after that?
Yeah, Conan Doyle was FLOODED with fan letters demanding he retcon Sherlock Holmes' death. He absolutely *hated* it. He, however, also liked getting paid, so he gave in...
As for wider canon... I'm just going to gesture widely at, well.... All. Religion.
That's a good point, and the term I think is a theological one anyway so focusing on canonical scriptures was I'm sure fairly high stakes. So you're right, people register and care about continuity in their narratives. I think my point is more that the modern phenomena of fandom and the meta-industry that's grown up around it feels very different, where "Canon" kind of becomes a commodity.
It goes back as far as humans have been telling stories. Heck the Brothers Grim spent a long while devising the Canon of various folk tales from multiple sources.
It's not that crazy either, people like to have boundaries. Oh sure they might not agree with or like the boundaries themselves, but we frame our understanding of the wild within boundaries. All the "canon" events of previous stories that link together frame the setting, the world, the characters- the story itself for following works
So when something happens that we really dislike it becomes a point of canon contention because we know its now part of the history and setting, even if we dislike it. When the creation deviates so far from the original and yet is still part of the original it can be disliked just because of that huge deviation.
In the end its because stories do mean something to us, we do connect with them.
Kroem wrote: Well I haven't seen the Mandelorian, but my impression is that it is a lower stakes, character focused drama?
That would be difficult on a starship with loads of crew I guess.
I more meant how Mando was seen by many in the SW community as saving the franchise and setting things right after how bad the new trilogy was.
Basically, what will be the ST show or movie that returns to the roots of the franchise.
Kroem wrote: Well I haven't seen the Mandelorian, but my impression is that it is a lower stakes, character focused drama?
That would be difficult on a starship with loads of crew I guess.
I more meant how Mando was seen by many in the SW community as saving the franchise and setting things right after how bad the new trilogy was.
Basically, what will be the ST show or movie that returns to the roots of the franchise.
I think trying to return to the roots of Star Trek is not ideal though, I want it to return to the 90's heyday not the hokey original series with an alien babe of the week XD
