I've noticed an effect that's made an appearance ever since the burly brawl in the Matrix 2, namely the idea that more is more. It's as if someone thinks that a scene can be improved by turning it up to 11. Then some eejit comes along and decides that it would be even more betterer if they turned it up to 12.
Jupiter Ascending, all the SW sequels, final episodes of ST Discovery season 2 and Picard season 1. All of those films/shows just keep adding stuff and don't know when to stop (like me attacking a box of Cadburys chocolate fingers...) and as a result, I'm not impressed - I just switch off.
I don't know if it's my age or the way that my brain works, but that stuff just doesn't imprint anything on my brain.
Compare that with this episode of the Mandalorian. Yes, a decent amount of impressive action and special effects, but it's dialled into that sweet spot. The absolute limits that I can focus on without overloading and switching off; end result? I'm glued to the screen going "woah!", "heh!" and "No effing way!". Normally, I'm quiet whilst watching things, this has got my wife occasionally wondering if I'm alright as a result of hearing strange noises coming from the lounge...
after watching a few reviews again, I noticed a odd part: when the dark trooper is punching him very hard repeatedly on the head, wouldn't his head pop off his neck? its not like the helmet is secured to the chest armor. not too weird in the moment, but a bit weird after a few rewatches.
Not even his head popping off, but enough contrecoup injury to turn his brain into a paste. There was a lot of nitpicks I had with this season to be honest. The positives I can think of is I like most of the characters and for the most part it feels like star wars (or at least moreso than disneys other attempts).
I did watch an interesting episode of Generation Tech, where they commented on the Beskar armour and how, when we see it being made by the Armorer, it appears to have some sort of circuitry on the inside. They theorised that it might have some sort of inertial dampening field in it - works for me.
Doesn't matter if a material will stop a tank round, meatbags would still get turned into... well, bags of meat unless something else is going on. It's exactly the same issue that Iron Man faces with all the massive deceleration that he experiences.
I know that Star Wars is hardly the Expanse, but a little bit of hand-wavey space magic helps my head.
Big Mac wrote: after watching a few reviews again, I noticed a odd part: when the dark trooper is punching him very hard repeatedly on the head, wouldn't his head pop off his neck? its not like the helmet is secured to the chest armor. not too weird in the moment, but a bit weird after a few rewatches.
Back of his bonce is hard up against the wall though, bracing the neck. So it’s a hand wavium from me
Also, he starts out with his head against a bulkhead. If beskar is sufficiently stiff all the force will transmit through that to the wall rather than his face and neck. Droid should have pulled him away from the wall first.
Graphite wrote: Also, he starts out with his head against a bulkhead. If beskar is sufficiently stiff all the force will transmit through that to the wall rather than his face and neck. Droid should have pulled him away from the wall first.
The droid was two seconds from punching his head Thru the wall, helmet and all.
Graphite wrote: Also, he starts out with his head against a bulkhead. If beskar is sufficiently stiff all the force will transmit through that to the wall rather than his face and neck.
This was definitely how they were portraying it, the wall was getting more and more dented with each punch.
I wonder if after the events of this episode Din will hang up his spurs. The next season could see Boba become the main protagonist. He's still a Mandalorian. After that we might then switch to Bo Katan.
It would sort of tie in to them (generally) wearing a mask and passing on or inheriting things.
They can follow an overall arc but keep things fresh by swapping out characters and their respective goals.
Souleater wrote: I wonder if after the events of this episode Din will hang up his spurs. The next season could see Boba become the main protagonist. He's still a Mandalorian. After that we might then switch to Bo Katan.
It would sort of tie in to them (generally) wearing a mask and passing on or inheriting things.
They can follow an overall arc but keep things fresh by swapping out characters and their respective goals.
Din made a lot of enemies on this quest for the child. I don't think the Armorer or the Watch enclaves are going to be remotely happy about him abandoning the Way, or cooperating with Boba Fett or the Night Wrens. Bo's coming for him- probably for a very public duel, when he's at his best. Thrawn's still out there, and Gideon's cultural manipulation sure seems like he learned from Thrawn, or was associated with him.
insaniak wrote: There's no need for it, though. They have thousands of years of timeline they can explore instead, and make something new rather than rehashing the sequel trilogy in the hope of coming up with something that pleases enough of the people who disliked the first lot to counteract alienating those who did.
The most likely course is that they just ignore the sequel era for a while to let everything die down, and once the vocal critics have moved on to complaining about something else, will consider exploring other stories in that setting. But it's certainly not critical that they spend much time right now in that part of the timeline... They've got a strong focus on the period immediately post-RotJ right now, which is working for them, and if High Republic proves popular that will give them all sorts of new possibilities.
There's no NEED for the current gamut of Disney's live-action remakes either. Outside of renewing the use of their personal use of the IP, I don't think there's anyone demanding to see the Aristocats or Lady and the Tramp as real cats or dogs.
Mulan shows you an example of how badly this venture has gone (rightfully given so how much they butchered the script to pander to both the home and Chinese audience, and the tone-deaf credit thanks to Xinjiang and China for letting them film there) but Disney hasn't made the choice yet to stop.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to remake the movies since that bird has flown and gone. I think personally they should just decanonize the movies. But there's precedence for soft or hard reboots for misaligned trilogies and the House of Mouse has made questionable decisions before in the pursuit of cash so I wouldn't put it past them to try and redo it at some point.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
Souleater wrote: I wonder if after the events of this episode Din will hang up his spurs. The next season could see Boba become the main protagonist. He's still a Mandalorian. After that we might then switch to Bo Katan.
It would sort of tie in to them (generally) wearing a mask and passing on or inheriting things.
They can follow an overall arc but keep things fresh by swapping out characters and their respective goals.
I’ve been wondering a similar thing; a bit like with Dr Who, by rotating the focus of the show they can keep it fresh & interesting and also allow the cast to do other projects / not get bored / typecast etc. Also allows them to bring new characters in and/or explore odd ideas.
I’m hoping that we’ll still see Din; he may not be the focus of the next series, but I figure he owes Boba one, so might show up to help out when needed.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Disney has an entire park dedicated to the sequels.
They aint going to be considered non-canon.
They just aint going to touch them at all.
Nah, they are going to touch them in about 10-20 years when the generation of kids who grew up watching the sequels become young adults and Disney is going to milk them for the nostalgia just like they are doing with the fans of the prequel right now and what they did with the fans of the original trilogy when they launched the prequel and the first Clone Wars wave of cartoon and material. You don't touch a movie while it's still hot. You touch it when nostalgia and rose tinted glasses have set in and the story's greatest hit are now evident by how the audience remembers it.
Fantastic episode, fantastic season in fact! I can't think of anything I would have changed or tweaked, it just felt like pure SW and was clearly made by a team who new their stuff and had a great love for what they were doing. Filoni and Favreau are clearly the ones who should be in charge of the universe for quite some time.
This season along with all the brilliant sounding new series and movies coming out in the near future make me feel pretty optimistic about the future of Star Wars. I'm quite happy pretending the sequels are some bad fan fiction and just going to enjoy all the new content we will be getting.
On the episode itself:
Spoiler:
Seeing Luke was amazing, they really nailed the methodical and slower OT style of fighting which I appreciated. Not too sold on the de-aged face, Tarkin didn't bother me in Rogue One but someting about Luke didn't really work for me. I'm sure that if he made a more lengthy appearance in the future they would cast an actor, hopefully Sebastian Stan, to play him.
Interested to see what will happen in the next season, Mando getting the dark sabre is clearly indicating that he will have some role in restoring Mandalore or pit him against Bo Katan, either of which would be pretty great to watch!
I wondered if the TIE launch sequence might have been a tribute to BSG? Especially with Starbuck there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also occurred to me Fett was moved off stage so they didn't have to spoil Mando`s moment with a Luke Boba confrontation
I would have loved a Luke/Boba moment. Have like Boba see the monitors and be nope I need to not be here and hide behind a computer bank. Luke comes in, does the whole thing with Mando and Baby Yoda like they did, then as he’s leaving be like Oh, and I know you’re over there. You better behave. or some other kind of dismissive remark.
There's no NEED for the current gamut of Disney's live-action remakes either. Outside of renewing the use of their personal use of the IP, I don't think there's anyone demanding to see the Aristocats or Lady and the Tramp as real cats or dogs.
Mulan shows you an example of how badly this venture has gone (rightfully given so how much they butchered the script to pander to both the home and Chinese audience, and the tone-deaf credit thanks to Xinjiang and China for letting them film there) but Disney hasn't made the choice yet to stop.
Mulan isn't really a good example of anything, given that it was released at a time when cinemas are either closed or doing very badly. In general, live action remakes make commercial sense because they have a built in audience from the nostalgia factor, so long as they're competently done.
It's difficult to see what commercial value there would be in rehashing the sequels rather than continuing to churn out content like the Mandalorian instead.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
Sure, I'd watch it. I watched Dark Phoenix because I like the X-men. I was still disappointed that they chose to rehash a story that had already been done instead of exploring something new.
The time travel gambit worked for rebooting Star Trek because that universe was essentially dead. It wouldn't work here. In trying to appease the vocal haters, they would disenfranchise the fans who did enjoy the sequels, and would just confuse the hell out of the casual viewers. They would also be left trying to make a new sequel trilogy without Carrie Fisher, and most likely without Harrison Ford, although Hamill's involvement in the Mandalorian does suggest that he at least isn't totally sick of his character yet.
Far better to just leave it alone and carry on fleshing out the immediate post-RotJ period and the High Republic for now, and look at it again down the track when tempers have died down and the sequels have, for most people, moved into a similar 'Yeah, they're not Oscar-winners, but that's ok' category like the prequels.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to remake the movies since that bird has flown and gone. I think personally they should just decanonize the movies. But there's precedence for soft or hard reboots for misaligned trilogies and the House of Mouse has made questionable decisions before in the pursuit of cash so I wouldn't put it past them to try and redo it at some point.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
Eh. Honestly I just think its better to accept that you aren't going to like everything in a franchise. The idea that they're going to 'decanonize' financially successful films is just strange and bizarre wish-listing.
The problem is that its not a matter of not liking them, but they are so bad, so offensive that they sully it.
I have been part of several fandoms, Star Trek, MLP, Fallout, Mass Effect and sooo much more.
Ofcourse whenever something new come outs,people will hate it(Discovery, Fallout 4, Andromeda, every season of every show i enjoy)
But the Sequels i have seen where so hated by so much.
The Prequels are fallout 4, the Sequels are Fallout 76
hotsauceman1 wrote: The problem is that its not a matter of not liking them, but they are so bad, so offensive that they sully it. I have been part of several fandoms, Star Trek, MLP, Fallout, Mass Effect and sooo much more. Ofcourse whenever something new come outs,people will hate it(Discovery, Fallout 4, Andromeda, every season of every show i enjoy) But the Sequels i have seen where so hated by so much. The Prequels are fallout 4, the Sequels are Fallout 76
Pretty much. The problem is that the sequels actively undermine the story arc and redemption of Anakin Skywalker in the previous 2 trilogies. Not only does the prophecy of Anakin balancing the force by saving his son from Palpatine mean squat because Palpatine had a revive button, but the sequel trilogy continues this character assassination on Luke as well by showing him as borderline acting out premeditated murder towards his own nephew over visions that didn't even happen yet, even though in the original trilogy he actively tried to bring back his father to the light, a well known war criminal and murderer at that point. I mean you can say he got jaded along the way when he was making his new jedi order, but that's a fundamental part of him that doesn't make any sense when Kylo hasn't even done anything yet. And then they have the audacity for Rey to continue the Skywalker line as if she had earned it. If they were their own self-contained story that didn't tie into the original cast or story of the first two trilogies, I wouldn't care. But the fact that it does makes the series actively worse off overall IMO.
It's like JK Rowling retconning all that stuff for details that either contradict or make no sense with the established canon of Harry Potter to get woke points. You can ignore it if you want, but it's better if its not there to begin with.
I more or less liked the sequel trilogy, it was incompetently plotted and paced but that's more or less standard these days
Luke's failure was forecast by Yoda several times so I had no issue with that.
I think Disney's best move going forward is to flesh them out more. Think about how much the Clone Wars (both the original animated and the later CGI) fleshed out the prequels. Once all those funny looking alien Jedi had personality and histories, we actually cared about them all dying in the last 5 minutes of Revenge.
Besides the issues I mentioned with the sequels, there was also a lot of world building that they just didn't have time for. The original Star Wars was remarkable for how much info they got out so economically and the sequels and prequels just didn't have that knack.
(Except for the reveal about Snoke, that was awesome, tip of the hat both for doing it, and doing it so efficiently)
Yoda was wrong about everything. Even before the Prequel Trilogy came along and painfully demonstrated the staggering, myopic arrogance of the Jedi Order during the rise of Palpatine, we already knew from the Original Trilogy that Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about Vader and Luke.
The people behind the Sequel Trilogy simply missed and/or disregarded the point of Luke’s arc. (Just like how they misunderstood the fake “goofy” persona Yoda used to test Luke in ESB.)
By contrast, Luke’s appearance in The Mandalorian finale shows us a perspective on that character by people who got it.
Easily fixed by porting those trash movies into Legends where they belong and letting Filoni and Favreau tell the real tale, incorporating the best parts of the EU going forward.
Holy gak that’s actually an option isn’t it? They could do that...and honestly I think they should.
That really, really isn't going to happen.
They could easily treat it like the Kelvin timeline for Star Trek. And honestly they should, the SeQs were hugely disrespectful to 40+ years of story telling and tens of millions of fans. Filoni and Favreau have managed to capture the spirit, hope and great story telling of the originals and the prequels with 16 episodes of a thirty minute show. If Kennedy had any sense she's sign the pay checks and put those two in charge of running the show and deciding what is Canon and what isn't. I've no doubt in my mind that Lucas would approve.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Yoda was wrong about everything. Even before the Prequel Trilogy came along and painfully demonstrated the staggering, myopic arrogance of the Jedi Order during the rise of Palpatine, we already knew from the Original Trilogy that Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about Vader and Luke.
The people behind the Sequel Trilogy simply missed and/or disregarded the point of Luke’s arc. (Just like how they misunderstood the fake “goofy” persona Yoda used to test Luke in ESB.)
By contrast, Luke’s appearance in The Mandalorian finale shows us a perspective on that character by people who got it.
This.
I've seen a lot of jokes and such about "hallway scenes" but the simple fact is that this was a brilliant scene.
With Vader, we saw and felt first hand the anger, the hatred and the fear. He was savage showing no mercy or remorse. And Vader always felt at odds with the force, was he controlling it? Or was it merely illusion?
With Luke, we saw and felt first hand the control, no fear, no emotion. He was in control, elegant and flowing, one with the force. Luke was a master, Vader was simply a slave. He just didn't comprehend it.
I've said this since I was a little kid. It's always been my belief that the prophecy was interpreted wrong. Luke, was the chosen one, not Anakin. It's a great story, not some opus of sci fi, but a competent and good story and one that is full of adventure and enjoyment for the audience.
Luke defeated the Emperor without using either the force, or violence. Anakin brought balance, Luke was the birth of a new order. A new way forward.
"I will never turn to the dark side. You've failed your Highness, I am a Jedi...like my father before me."
The new movies completely missed everything. They missed every opportunity...and I firmly believe it was because Disney just wanted the cash. Someone could have told them: "Look, lets take our time, do this the right way and build a universe up from what we have like we did with the Marvel stuff. In 10-20 years you'll make 50 billion dollars off all this." And the talking heads response was "I just want 2 billion dollars right fn' now, so lets get this stuff pumped out as quickly as possible."
Literally a 4 minute scene from a half our show that's one major flaw is the fact it's a half hour show and suffers from that runtime was better than all three of the sequel trilogy movies combined, X100.That alone speaks volumes about how wrong the Disney leadership has been time after time.
Remember when there were some in the company who said that Star Wars fans hate women because of all the hate Rey and Rose got? Well, why didn't Ashoka, Bo-Katan, Koska, Carasynthia Dune, or literally any of the other female characters from the Mandalorian not get this hate? In fact, why were they treated entirely the opposite? Could it be because they're well written, powerful and fun all without having a bunch of political stuff tossed in to smash the audience of the head with? Or, could it be that Dave and John know how to write characters, male or female or even droid?
There is so much potential here, with all these new shows coming and the new Rogue Squadron movie, Disney has the chance to fix this and they can even do it with their mistake, by simply saying "The ST was a "What If" that "Could have Been"" If they were have as smart as they seem to think they are, they'd announce this tomorrow and move on with it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to remake the movies since that bird has flown and gone. I think personally they should just decanonize the movies. But there's precedence for soft or hard reboots for misaligned trilogies and the House of Mouse has made questionable decisions before in the pursuit of cash so I wouldn't put it past them to try and redo it at some point.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
Eh. Honestly I just think its better to accept that you aren't going to like everything in a franchise. The idea that they're going to 'decanonize' financially successful films is just strange and bizarre wish-listing.
Why? The story of that trilogy is complete, the money has been made. Not to mention the fact that if they do, and go back to continue on from what Mando has done, introducing characters like Thrawn and "be still my beating hear" Mara Jade, they'll literally make 100 times the money. And since we know that's all they care about is the money, there is no reason not to do it.
The ST is Legends.
Problem literally solved with one press release and then its off to the races on letting Dave and John print money for the next ten years the way the MCU did.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Wrong? Yoda said training Anakin was a bad idea and that this Luke person wasn't cut out to be a Jedi.
Seems he has a pretty good record.
Those are both great examples of Yoda being wrong.
Let’s start with Luke in the OT: Yoda and Obi-Wan were both committed to the idea that Luke would confront and defeat Vader and the Emperor. This is exactly what the Emperor foresaw and he constructed a trap around it. Luke overcame the trap by breaking out of the narrow way of thinking characterizing both Yoda’s and the Emperor’s dichotomous worldviews. Luke refused to fight and thereby inspired his father to “wake up” at the last minute, shake off the shackles of the dichotomy, and do the simple thing any parent should automatically do: protect his son. It didn’t come down to the Light Side and the Dark Side or whatever mystical and transcendent philosophies; it ended up hinging on something much more fundamental that neither Yoda nor the Emperor could see. But it was something that Luke saw, or rather felt, clearly.
And now Anakin in the PT: Yoda had misgivings about training Anakin, sure, but what did he do about that? Not only did he allow Anakin to be trained despite his concerns, Yoda did not bother to do anything to make sure that Anakin would get the proper training he needed. This is because Yoda couldn’t even recognize what needed to be done; that what Anakin really needed was simple guidance and compassion. Even near the end, when Anakin was on the verge of breaking down, he tried to go see Yoda for advice. And the muppet didn’t appear to see any of the stark warning signs; he just gave Anakin some dumb platitude about “letting go” — so naturally, receiving no emotional support from the Jedi throughout his whole life, Anakin fell under the influence of a fatherly figure right in front of the Jedi Council, who (again despite their misgivings concerning Palpatine) failed to do anything about it.
Togusa wrote: With Vader, we saw and felt first hand the anger, the hatred and the fear. He was savage showing no mercy or remorse. And Vader always felt at odds with the force, was he controlling it? Or was it merely illusion?
With Luke, we saw and felt first hand the control, no fear, no emotion. He was in control, elegant and flowing, one with the force. Luke was a master, Vader was simply a slave. He just didn't comprehend it.
Beautifully, expertly explained.
Togusa wrote: Remember when there were some in the company who said that Star Wars fans hate women because of all the hate Rey and Rose got? Well, why didn't Ashoka, Bo-Katan, Koska, Carasynthia Dune, or literally any of the other female characters from the Mandalorian not get this hate? In fact, why were they treated entirely the opposite? Could it be because they're well written, powerful and fun all without having a bunch of political stuff tossed in to smash the audience of the head with? Or, could it be that Dave and John know how to write characters, male or female or even droid?
Isn’t it amazing how simple and clear the truth is?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Wrong? Yoda said training Anakin was a bad idea and that this Luke person wasn't cut out to be a Jedi.
Seems he has a pretty good record.
Those are both great examples of Yoda being wrong.
Let’s start with Luke in the OT: Yoda and Obi-Wan were both committed to the idea that Luke would confront and defeat Vader and the Emperor. This is exactly what the Emperor foresaw and he constructed a trap around it. Luke overcame the trap by breaking out of the narrow way of thinking characterizing both Yoda’s and the Emperor’s dichotomous worldviews. Luke refused to fight and thereby inspired his father to “wake up” at the last minute, shake off the shackles of the dichotomy, and do the simple thing any parent should automatically do: protect his son. It didn’t come down to the Light Side and the Dark Side or whatever mystical and transcendent philosophies; it ended up hinging on something much more fundamental that neither Yoda nor the Emperor could see. But it was something that Luke saw, or rather felt, clearly.
And now Anakin in the PT: Yoda had misgivings about training Anakin, sure, but what did he do about that? Not only did he allow Anakin to be trained despite his concerns, Yoda did not bother to do anything to make sure that Anakin would get the proper training he needed. This is because Yoda couldn’t even recognize what needed to be done; that what Anakin really needed was simple guidance and compassion. Even near the end, when Anakin was on the verge of breaking down, he tried to go see Yoda for advice. And the muppet didn’t appear to see any of the stark warning signs; he just gave Anakin some dumb platitude about “letting go” — so naturally, receiving no emotional support from the Jedi throughout his whole life, Anakin fell under the influence of a fatherly figure right in front of the Jedi Council, who (again despite their misgivings concerning Palpatine) failed to do anything about it.
Togusa wrote: With Vader, we saw and felt first hand the anger, the hatred and the fear. He was savage showing no mercy or remorse. And Vader always felt at odds with the force, was he controlling it? Or was it merely illusion?
With Luke, we saw and felt first hand the control, no fear, no emotion. He was in control, elegant and flowing, one with the force. Luke was a master, Vader was simply a slave. He just didn't comprehend it.
Beautifully, expertly explained.
Togusa wrote: Remember when there were some in the company who said that Star Wars fans hate women because of all the hate Rey and Rose got? Well, why didn't Ashoka, Bo-Katan, Koska, Carasynthia Dune, or literally any of the other female characters from the Mandalorian not get this hate? In fact, why were they treated entirely the opposite? Could it be because they're well written, powerful and fun all without having a bunch of political stuff tossed in to smash the audience of the head with? Or, could it be that Dave and John know how to write characters, male or female or even droid?
Isn’t it amazing how simple and clear the truth is?
We all obviously know there are some very poorly mannered fans out there with dubious opinions. But, it's plain as day the difference between someone like Leia, Ashoka and Bo-Katan or even Jyn, and say, Rey, Holdo, Rose or Zorii. The first group feel like real people, with hopes and dreams and flaws, triumphs and depth. The second group feel like the exist to preach to me some odd concepts that I'm not entirely sure the writers themselves understood.
There is no character assassination of Luke. Luke was a feth up the entire time. Even when he was getting gak done he was doing it stumbling his way through it all. Are you remembering Jedi correctly? Because I don't think Lukes plan was to not have force manipulation work, fall into the rancor pit, have to kill a monsters and get tied up, taken to a sarlac pit, and have to kill a ton of people on his way out to "save" his friends. WHICH BTW, he did by being the distraction. He didn't actually save any of them. He just jumped around a couple skiffs chopping wood with his light saber while they did the actual rescuing.
But thats what happens. Because Luke kind of sucks.
Then he goes to Endor. And he gets brought to the Emperor. And he's all I will convince my dad to help me. But he doesn't. He ends up ALMOST going dark side and angrily chopping wood onto his dad till he removes his hand. THEN he does the one thing he is really actually great at which is turn back from the dark side and stand his ground. His plan was never to get almost killed by a bunch of lightning and then have his Dad do the actual work of killing the Emperor.
Remember when Luke was a feth up and almost died in the snow?
There is no character assassination of Luke in the sequels. The Sequels handle Luke PERFECTLY. That is EXACTLY who he should be growing up to be. The issue is you have 30-40 years of thinking of Luke as the main character filled with EU garbage that turns him into a super competent savior while ignoring everything that he actually is. Which is a confused, sad, person who wallows on his failures and stumbles his way through situations he is not prepared for.
Lance845 wrote: There is no character assassination of Luke. Luke was a feth up the entire time. Even when he was getting gak done he was doing it stumbling his way through it all. Are you remembering Jedi correctly? Because I don't think Lukes plan was to not have force manipulation work, fall into the rancor pit, have to kill a monsters and get tied up, taken to a sarlac pit, and have to kill a ton of people on his way out to "save" his friends. WHICH BTW, he did by being the distraction. He didn't actually save any of them. He just jumped around a couple skiffs chopping wood with his light saber while they did the actual rescuing.
But thats what happens. Because Luke kind of sucks.
Then he goes to Endor. And he gets brought to the Emperor. And he's all I will convince my dad to help me. But he doesn't. He ends up ALMOST going dark side and angrily chopping wood onto his dad till he removes his hand. THEN he does the one thing he is really actually great at which is turn back from the dark side and stand his ground. His plan was never to get almost killed by a bunch of lightning and then have his Dad do the actual work of killing the Emperor.
Remember when Luke was a feth up and almost died in the snow?
There is no character assassination of Luke in the sequels. The Sequels handle Luke PERFECTLY. That is EXACTLY who he should be growing up to be. The issue is you have 30-40 years of thinking of Luke as the main character filled with EU garbage that turns him into a super competent savior while ignoring everything that he actually is. Which is a confused, sad, person who wallows on his failures and stumbles his way through situations he is not prepared for.
dude, anyone whose plans go perfectly every time without having to change them and iprovise is the worst kind of mary sue
Lance845 wrote: There is no character assassination of Luke. Luke was a feth up the entire time. Even when he was getting gak done he was doing it stumbling his way through it all. Are you remembering Jedi correctly? Because I don't think Lukes plan was to not have force manipulation work, fall into the rancor pit, have to kill a monsters and get tied up, taken to a sarlac pit, and have to kill a ton of people on his way out to "save" his friends. WHICH BTW, he did by being the distraction. He didn't actually save any of them. He just jumped around a couple skiffs chopping wood with his light saber while they did the actual rescuing.
But thats what happens. Because Luke kind of sucks.
Then he goes to Endor. And he gets brought to the Emperor. And he's all I will convince my dad to help me. But he doesn't. He ends up ALMOST going dark side and angrily chopping wood onto his dad till he removes his hand. THEN he does the one thing he is really actually great at which is turn back from the dark side and stand his ground. His plan was never to get almost killed by a bunch of lightning and then have his Dad do the actual work of killing the Emperor.
Remember when Luke was a feth up and almost died in the snow?
There is no character assassination of Luke in the sequels. The Sequels handle Luke PERFECTLY. That is EXACTLY who he should be growing up to be. The issue is you have 30-40 years of thinking of Luke as the main character filled with EU garbage that turns him into a super competent savior while ignoring everything that he actually is. Which is a confused, sad, person who wallows on his failures and stumbles his way through situations he is not prepared for.
dude, anyone whose plans go perfectly every time without having to change them and iprovise is the worst kind of mary sue
Right. And then he went to go make a Jedi Academy, and over years he made mistakes. And then he wallowed on his failures. The EU Luke is the worst kind of Mary Sue. The movie Luke is a regular kid whos been in over his head since the day we met him.
NONE of Lukes plans work out in any of the original 3 movies.He succeeds at any of those situations because of OTHER people. When the chips are down and Luke is the boss at the Academy he has nobody else to turn to. It all lies on his shoulders. And we have never seen him succeed on his own at anything.
Lance, you are reaching conclusions not supported by your evidence.
Luke, in the course of his character arc, is certainly not defined by everything going according to his master plan, No one claimed that ITT. He’s also not defined by emotional serenity or hyper competence. Again, no one claimed that ITT.
The point of his arc is, he’s not sure what he is supposed to do and his mentors are largely unreliable so he has to intuit the correct path, and pursue it with faith even when it seems to be against all odds. This is as true with his one-in-a-millions shot in ANH as it is with his refusal to play the Emperor’s game in RotJ.
His arc is complete when he sees his father take his place at the side of Obi-Wan and Yoda. At that point, his story ends because his main conflict had been not knowing whether he should trust his feelings. Anakin’s last words to Luke are “You were right about me. Tell your sister, you were right.”
The resolution of this conflict is what allows Luke to become a Jedi Master, as Togusa outlined above. And that is what we see in the finale of The Mandalorian.
What we see in the Sequel Trilogy is someone who seemingly forgot everything that happened to him during his arc, someone who never developed from being unsure to finding that he can and should trust his feelings.
The resolution of this conflict is what allows Luke to become a Jedi Master, as Togusa outlined above. And that is what we see in the finale of The Mandalorian.
What we see in the Sequel Trilogy is someone who seemingly forgot everything that happened to him during his arc, someone who never developed from being unsure to finding that he can and should trust his feelings.
What you see at the end of Mano is a Luke that has reached a place of confidence with a mission. He is a "Master" in that he knows the skills well enough. But Ezra at the end of Rebels was closer to a master in his giving himself over to the force and the peace and power that comes with that then Luke at the end of RotJ who was right but hasn't reach that point yet.
Like Yoda says to Luke in the sequels. His mind is always looking to the future and the past. Never the here and now. He wallows on what was and what could be instead of doing whats right in the moment. Thats not a lesson we saw Luke really learn. He didn't forget everything. He never LEARNED everything. And when he saw Ben becoming the next Vader he freaked out. And then, with those deaths of his charges around him, with the loss of his nephew, he wallowed as Luke is want to do.
This thread has made me realise something very interesting; the Emperor is defeated not by being out-Forced by a Jedi, but by Anakin abandoning his twisted beliefs for basic human emotion, his love for his son.
Yet this flies totally in the face of Yoda (and presumably the Jedi) “no attachment” teachings. If Luke and Anakin hadn’t had that attachment, they wouldn’t have won.
It ties in with one of the annoyances I have with The Last Jedi, where Yoda burns the Jedi texts. For a brief moment it looked like Yoda was admitting to Luke that he got things very, very wrong and that dogma doesn’t matter, Jedi or Sith, what matters is that you’re a good person. That’s a very interesting core for the films and builds on the earlier “force being out of balance” theme from the prequels. Unfortunately they undermined that whole concept by Rey just having the books anyway
Jadenim wrote: This thread has made me realise something very interesting; the Emperor is defeated not by being out-Forced by a Jedi, but by Anakin abandoning his twisted beliefs for basic human emotion, his love for his son.
Yet this flies totally in the face of Yoda (and presumably the Jedi) “no attachment” teachings. If Luke and Anakin hadn’t had that attachment, they wouldn’t have won.
It ties in with one of the annoyances I have with The Last Jedi, where Yoda burns the Jedi texts. For a brief moment it looked like Yoda was admitting to Luke that he got things very, very wrong and that dogma doesn’t matter, Jedi or Sith, what matters is that you’re a good person. Unfortunately they undermined that whole concept by Rey just having the books anyway
Which is where a New Jedi or whatever series would be interesting.
IIRC the EU started with Luke having married Jedi and training adults before the prequels decided that Jedi are monks trained from infancy. Seeing Luke or Rey or whomever trying to build a more emotionally healthy Jedi order would be cool.
Or alternately if the High Republic shows the Jedi becoming stricker and more insular and banning families etc.
It’s pretty rich for Yoda to criticize Luke for not paying attention to the present.
This is the same Yoda who hung out with Palpatine on the daily while wondering who the Dark Lord of the Sith might be. Same Yoda that couldn’t see what was up with Anakin, despite the VERY obvious warning signs up to and including Anakin flat-out begging for help. Same Yoda that couldn’t figure out that the key issue was the relationship between father and son, rather than Light and Darkness.
What was the “here and now” for Luke? It was his friends’ suffering on Bespin. It was the turmoil deep within his father, to which Obi-Wan and Yoda were totally blind. The man who saw the good in notorious galactic war criminal Darth Vader would never have contemplated murdering his own nephew in his sleep.
Favreau and Filoni are not motivated to desperately overcomplicate things for the sake of being “interesting.” They understand the simplicity of narrative is what lends it depth and meaning. That is why they were able to write that scene in the finale with Luke, which is what we all needed.
Don’t get me wrong, ESB Yoda had some wise lessons to pass on to Luke just in terms of the more mundane things Jedi need to know. But the big picture stuff Yoda got completely wrong.
Also a here and now was a girl that was looking for guidance and went through a lot of trouble to find the only person she could get help from only to be turned away because of his own fear of what might be if he fails again.
I don’t accept that characterization as authentic for Luke. I look forward to Jon and Dave eventually clarifying that was an alternate future avoided by some interdimensional adventure Ahsoka goes on.
Personnaly I loved the characterisation of Luke in the Mandalorian and in the sequel trilogy and I don't see them as mutually exclusive.
In the Mandalorian, Luke is victorious. He has saved the galaxy and is rebuilding the Jedi Temple and things, despite some harship are comming along nicely. He immersed himself in his new duty as a Jedi Master, modelled himself after his masters Obi-Wan and Yoda and added a touch of himself here and there. He became powerful and in control, but at the same time he lost his youthful naivety and innocence, the innocence and naivity that actually made him triumph over the Emperor. Blinded by his newfound sense of gravitas and his responsabilities over a alaxy still in turmoil and the rise of a new great power of the dark side, he considers for a brief moment doing the unthinkable, the exact opposite of what his younger self did: sacrifice a familly member for the greater good. The fact that he didn't shows that even as an aged master, Luke still has a bit of the young self in him left. That conflict between his newfound assurance, sense of gravitas and responsability as the "Jedi Master" vs his younger self makes him a broken man for a while. Yet, in the end, his hope in the future is restaured and with his sacrifice he restaures hope for the galaxy as a whole. That's a very good story arc. It simply wasn't what many were expecting. They were expecting Luke to always be the hero, to not be seen at his lowest in the sequel. Many wanted to see Luke the old hero, not Luke the broken hero and the former they could only see for a few minutes at the end of episode VIII.
What if Grogu is such a massive problem for Luke that that's what MAKES him so jumpy about Ben turning to the dark side? That Luke is learning from other mistakes after RoTJ?
We've seen Grogu do some very dubious things, and he's basically been travelling the galaxy with a pretty brutal group for the last year or so.
(Also - Yoda does have a sense of humour outwith his bluff on Dagobah. He rips right into Obi-wan in front of the Padwans in AotC - "Lost a planet, master Obi-wan has. How embarassing". Note that this may be the one and only good thing about AotC)
Manchu wrote: I don’t accept that characterization as authentic for Luke. I look forward to Jon and Dave eventually clarifying that was an alternate future avoided by some interdimensional adventure Ahsoka goes on.
I'd argue that Luke's plans in RotJ work out pretty well overall - he sets out to rescue Han and redeem his father, in both cases he succeeds and in both cases he runs up against complications brought on by highly proficient scheming overlord types. He has come a long way from being the stumbling farm boy in the original movie.
I would also argue that Luke isn't necessarily a Mary Sue in the old EU stories as a rule - there are a number of good stories with him where he is wrestling with his own doubts about how best to carry on the Jedi legacy etc, but I think we can acknowledge that there were plenty of cases (especially when he's presented as an external character who we don't see the perspective of) where he comes off as this infallible plot device used to steer the perspective characters on the Path to Righteousness through his inarguable wisdom rather than forcing them to earn hard-won wisdom the way he had to. The best of Legends exists in the same timeline as the worst of Legends, and people who found him to be a great character in those books or those who found him to be an insufferable mary sue aren't objectively right or wrong: they just didn't read all the same stuff.
For what it's worth I don't think his character was assassinated in the Disney-era, a lot of the examples people cite turn out to be hyperbole or carefully selected excerpts taken out of context; the only way I see that he's truly been diminished in the canon material is that the galaxy is now presented as large enough and complicated enough that not everyone knows about him - or knows the exact correct details of his life, what he's doing, where he is, etc. It's not about making Luke less important, it's about selling the idea that the Galaxy is a big place.
BrianDavion wrote: umm Ashoka WAS hated initally thing is, in her case it was by design. and she was intended to EVOLVE.
I've seen this video - and it's pretty ridiculous in its deification of Filoni. They course-corrected a flagging character, that's not a new thing in animation. He deserves props for that course correction, and developing an endearing character that the fandom has embraced, but doesn't make him a 4D Chess Master.
Jadenim wrote: This thread has made me realise something very interesting; the Emperor is defeated not by being out-Forced by a Jedi, but by Anakin abandoning his twisted beliefs for basic human emotion, his love for his son.
Yet this flies totally in the face of Yoda (and presumably the Jedi) “no attachment” teachings. If Luke and Anakin hadn’t had that attachment, they wouldn’t have won.
It ties in with one of the annoyances I have with The Last Jedi, where Yoda burns the Jedi texts. For a brief moment it looked like Yoda was admitting to Luke that he got things very, very wrong and that dogma doesn’t matter, Jedi or Sith, what matters is that you’re a good person. That’s a very interesting core for the films and builds on the earlier “force being out of balance” theme from the prequels. Unfortunately they undermined that whole concept by Rey just having the books anyway
I rather like that bit, Yoda died believing that Luke being Vader's son was going to be a major obstacle he'd need to overcome and it ended up being the thing that saved his life, and the galaxy. It makes sense then that his appearing to Luke again to impart one final bit of wisdom should be the bit he gained after dying: to trust the future to those who come after and to trust them to do what he couldn't.
Besides that, I feel like a lot of people missed the shot of the books in the drawer on the Millenium Falcon at the end of TLJ which I guess muddled the whole thing.
Manchu wrote: I don’t accept that characterization as authentic for Luke. I look forward to Jon and Dave eventually clarifying that was an alternate future avoided by some interdimensional adventure Ahsoka goes on.
Once again, that really, really isn't going to happen.
Of the group that actively, loudly, and vocally hate on the Sequels, only a sub-category of them hate them so much that they don't consume Star Wars media. In that group, you have further sub-categories you need to remove from consideration: people who refuse to consume any Star Wars so long as Disney owns it, people who have in fact aged out of the target demographic and wouldn't be consuming Star Wars media anyway, people who make a big stink about it online but still buy the tickets and subscriptions and toys anyway. When you are left only with the people who truly do not read, watch, or otherwise consume Star Wars stuff but would if they were catered to - how much money is Disney actually losing?
How does that money compare to the gains they get from market awareness after say, one ad campaign? Or middle-class moms looking to distract their kids for an afternoon while they go out for a girl's night? More importantly, how does that compare to the 8-10 year olds who enjoyed those movies and will ask their parents for Star Wars stuff for the next five years, who'll spend their first personal money on Star Wars comics, books, and video games (if EA ever gets around to making any)? How does that market compare to the market they stand to alienate by making such a change?
This isn't new ground either, Lucasfilm is going to rehabilitate the Sequels the same way they rehabilitated the Prequels, they're even using the same people to do it. And just as I have had to put up with y'all talking about the hidden depths of the 'bring balance to the force' idiocy you too will have to listen to people say 'well actually, Rey looking at the infinite reflections of her own duplicates proves they always intended for her to be a Palpatine because...' forever and ever.
Graphite wrote: (Also - Yoda does have a sense of humour outwith his bluff on Dagobah. He rips right into Obi-wan in front of the Padwans in AotC - "Lost a planet, master Obi-wan has. How embarassing". Note that this may be the one and only good thing about AotC)
He also goes full Giggly Dagobah Yoda for a bit in a very decent early Clone Wars episode.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m interested in how Luke will deal with training someone that’s more powerful in the Force than he?
If he's still juggling Grogu by the time Ben Solo shows up on the scene, how his Grogu going to react to his steady descent? Will Grogu have some kind of mental connection with Snoke?
Little puzzling question about the characterisation of a non-Jedi character. Bo-Katan seems to be dead set in leading Mandalore again yet in all her previous incarnation, while she had some leadership, never was "running for the crown". In Clone Wars, she is second in command to Pre Vizla and when he gets killed she seeks to get revenge against Maul. When the Republic comes to her aid and capture's Maul, she is left as the nominal leader of the planet following the death of her sister and her position as the leader of the "anti-Maul" resistence, but she obviously doesn't seem to enjoy the position and doesn't seem to even think she's fit for it, declaring herself "only good at war". In Rebels, she leads a cell of anti-imperial rebels that join forces with the titular character to free Mandalore from the Empire. She refuses to take command and Sabine has to coax her into taking once again the mantle of leader of Mandalore by giving her the Darksaber. Then of course, things go bad again and the Empire destroy Mandalore and most of its population. Obviously, Bo-Katan could still be described as a "fervant nationalist" believing that Mandalorian should be a proud, independant and feared civilisation of warriors and craftsmen, but why is she now passed from reluctant and self doubting leader to ambitious one?
I imagine the circumstances that lead to her losing the Darksaber (and Mandalore itself) probably factor a lot into that. Perhaps the fact that she was gifted it the first time caused someone to challenge her leadership at a critical moment, or sowed dissent in the ranks.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m interested in how Luke will deal with training someone that’s more powerful in the Force than he?
Badly, according to the sequels.
On that, it actually just struck me, as a result of the mention above of Yoda not seeing the Sith Lord right in front of him for all that time, that Palpatine's reveal actually makes Luke's mistreatment of Ben Solo make more sense. TLJ revealed that Luke contemplated (but backed out from) killing Ben because he could sense nothing but darkness inside him, and that coupled with Ben's raw power in the Force was going to lead to disaster. But we're shown over all three of the movies that Ben was conflicted, and even at his worst still, like Vader, had that kernel of good still inside. So what gives?
Well, Palpatine does. He explains in Rise that he was manipulating everything behind the scenes. And it seems perfectly reasonable that the guy who managed to hide his presence even from Jedi Council members in the same room, and who successfully clouded the vision of the most powerful of the Jedi so that even they couldn't see what was coming, could similarly manipulate Luke so that when he looked at Ben all he saw was the potential for darkness, rather than the various other paths that Ben could potentially have taken.
All of which has nothing to do with the Mandalorian, obviously, but was relevant to the side-discussion going on in here as a result of the 'different' portrayal of Luke. Which, for me, worked fine - I don't see the Mandalorian's take as a different one. As someone else said above, this is a Luke who has just defeated the Empire, and is committed to rebuilding the Jedi order. The sequel Luke is the Luke that has that optimism smacked out of him in the most brutal fashion, and who has had 30 years to learn just how rubbish the Jedi Order was right before their fall. I get that this isn't the Luke a lot of people wanted (I have no idea why... Grumpy Old Man Luke was an infinitely more entertaining character than wax-model Serene Jedi Luke from RotJ) but it is a reasonable progression of the character.
insaniak. if you remember it wasn’t just that Palpatine was hiding his presence from the Jedi Council but also that the Jedi themselves had a diminished connection to the Force. The apparent explanation for that was specifically that they did not pay enough attention to the here and now.This is the basis of Qui-Gon’s emphasis on the so-called Living Force and his refusal to go along with Council politics.
Compel, you are totally right; Luke putting on an act to test Rey like Yoda tested him would have been interesting and that’s what they seemed to be setting up but unfortunately no there was no depth to it, just boring edginess.
Regarding Bo-Katan, I still think she is being set up as a potential villain or at least as someone flirting with outright villainy.
Manchu wrote: Regarding Bo-Katan, I still think she is being set up as a potential villain or at least as someone flirting with outright villainy.
I can't remember any female character who actively saught power who wasn't a villain. Seeking power in general is considered villainous in most occasion though I think I can remember a few male heroes seeking a position of leadership.
Manchu wrote: Leia, Padme, Mon Mothma all come to mind as heroic female characters who sought (and successfully gained) power.
None of them sought power. Leia was adopted into royalty when she was a baby and isn't a leader of the rebellion in the first trilogy and operates as a leader of a resistence movement in the sequel on the basis of her experience and fame. Mon Mothma is introduced as a leader without any explanation as to why. Padme is also a princess who basically got power bestowed upon her. None of them have in their story arc for objective the taking of power and the establishment of them at the top of a hierarchy.
It’s not just seeking power with Bo-Katan. She’s literally bent on world domination, which is a classic villain trope.
Is she? She seeks to reunite all Mandalorians and restaure her civilisation. Sure Mandalorian are traditionnaly ruled by some sort of monarch, the Mandalore, who rule based on his martial prowesses and military leadership which, if she takes power, would make her a despot, but I'm not sure it's a "world domination" trope like that of Palpatine for example. We have not seen yet who or why some would oppose her.
By that standard (with which I do not agree), SW tends to take the view that the desire to seize power is morally suspect. Has nothing to do with characters’ gender. Obviously, the prototypical example is Palpatine.
As for Bo-Katan, what you describe is why she is on the edge: is this about rebuilding the lost homeland or is this about her own ego? So far, it’s ambiguous.
Manchu wrote: By that standard (with which I do not agree), SW tends to take the view that the desire to seize power is morally suspect. Has nothing to do with characters’ gender.
It's a common trope that extands well beyond Star Wars. People who seek power are more often then not villains. I think I can count on the fingers of my hands the number of heroes, all men, who actively seek power. Power tends to be bestowed or even imposed upon heroes. They relunctantly accept it for various reasons.
Bo-Katan is definitely seeking power. Her motives seem ambiguous. She could want power for noble reasons (like Leia, Padme, and Mon Mothma) or she could want it for selfish reasons (like Palpatine). The somewhat obsessive, fanatical way she talks about it doesn’t make her seem all that noble.
Lance845 wrote: There is no character assassination of Luke. Luke was a feth up the entire time. Even when he was getting gak done he was doing it stumbling his way through it all. Are you remembering Jedi correctly? Because I don't think Lukes plan was to not have force manipulation work, fall into the rancor pit, have to kill a monsters and get tied up, taken to a sarlac pit, and have to kill a ton of people on his way out to "save" his friends. WHICH BTW, he did by being the distraction. He didn't actually save any of them. He just jumped around a couple skiffs chopping wood with his light saber while they did the actual rescuing.
But thats what happens. Because Luke kind of sucks.
Then he goes to Endor. And he gets brought to the Emperor. And he's all I will convince my dad to help me. But he doesn't. He ends up ALMOST going dark side and angrily chopping wood onto his dad till he removes his hand. THEN he does the one thing he is really actually great at which is turn back from the dark side and stand his ground. His plan was never to get almost killed by a bunch of lightning and then have his Dad do the actual work of killing the Emperor.
Remember when Luke was a feth up and almost died in the snow?
There is no character assassination of Luke in the sequels. The Sequels handle Luke PERFECTLY. That is EXACTLY who he should be growing up to be. The issue is you have 30-40 years of thinking of Luke as the main character filled with EU garbage that turns him into a super competent savior while ignoring everything that he actually is. Which is a confused, sad, person who wallows on his failures and stumbles his way through situations he is not prepared for.
dude, anyone whose plans go perfectly every time without having to change them and iprovise is the worst kind of mary sue
Right. And then he went to go make a Jedi Academy, and over years he made mistakes. And then he wallowed on his failures. The EU Luke is the worst kind of Mary Sue. The movie Luke is a regular kid whos been in over his head since the day we met him.
NONE of Lukes plans work out in any of the original 3 movies.He succeeds at any of those situations because of OTHER people. When the chips are down and Luke is the boss at the Academy he has nobody else to turn to. It all lies on his shoulders. And we have never seen him succeed on his own at anything.
EU Luke is far better in my opinion. Sounds like we have different perspectives.
Manchu wrote: Bo-Katan is definitely seeking power. Her motives seem ambiguous. She could want power for noble reasons (like Leia, Padme, and Mon Mothma) or she could want it for selfish reasons (like Palpatine). The somewhat obsessive, fanatical way she talks about it doesn’t make her seem all that noble.
I only meant that if she turns out not to be vilain she would be a rare case of heroin seeking power. I think she will be an antagonist somehow to the largely apolitical Din.
The resolution of this conflict is what allows Luke to become a Jedi Master, as Togusa outlined above. And that is what we see in the finale of The Mandalorian.
What we see in the Sequel Trilogy is someone who seemingly forgot everything that happened to him during his arc, someone who never developed from being unsure to finding that he can and should trust his feelings.
What you see at the end of Mano is a Luke that has reached a place of confidence with a mission. He is a "Master" in that he knows the skills well enough. But Ezra at the end of Rebels was closer to a master in his giving himself over to the force and the peace and power that comes with that then Luke at the end of RotJ who was right but hasn't reach that point yet.
Like Yoda says to Luke in the sequels. His mind is always looking to the future and the past. Never the here and now. He wallows on what was and what could be instead of doing whats right in the moment. Thats not a lesson we saw Luke really learn. He didn't forget everything. He never LEARNED everything. And when he saw Ben becoming the next Vader he freaked out. And then, with those deaths of his charges around him, with the loss of his nephew, he wallowed as Luke is want to do.
Uh, that's why we have the Luke presented in the Mando as he was, much more confident and controlled. TLJ luke is garbage writing and wastes the characters potential.
Luke is not a master in the Mandalorian. To be a Jedi Master one must have trained a Padawan. Luke is a Jedi Knight, who has started a very optimistic path to rebuilding in a better way what was lost.
The Luke from the new movies is just an unlikeable bitter old man, poorly written.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jadenim wrote: This thread has made me realise something very interesting; the Emperor is defeated not by being out-Forced by a Jedi, but by Anakin abandoning his twisted beliefs for basic human emotion, his love for his son.
Yet this flies totally in the face of Yoda (and presumably the Jedi) “no attachment” teachings. If Luke and Anakin hadn’t had that attachment, they wouldn’t have won.
It ties in with one of the annoyances I have with The Last Jedi, where Yoda burns the Jedi texts. For a brief moment it looked like Yoda was admitting to Luke that he got things very, very wrong and that dogma doesn’t matter, Jedi or Sith, what matters is that you’re a good person. That’s a very interesting core for the films and builds on the earlier “force being out of balance” theme from the prequels. Unfortunately they undermined that whole concept by Rey just having the books anyway
I think this is more or less the point too. The Old Jedi order is akin to modern Christianity. It's teachings twisted and warped, they became too involved with the Republic and refused to see other paths. For example, The Force exists, whether or not it's dark or light depends on the user and their emotional awareness. But, both Good and Evil must exist, and during the Republic's time, Good far out balanced Evil. Hence the story. I honestly think that Lucas was making a statement about how modern Christianity has fallen from the teachings of Christ in favor of this warped view of what it means to be a person of faith.
Yoda can be both wise and still fallible, and they've shown that pretty well. Check out this video for a sorta take on this and why Qui Gon Jinn was very, very underrated.
Manchu wrote: OK but I don’t understand what you’re getting at.
Bo-Katan is definitely seeking power. Her motives seem ambiguous. She could want power for noble reasons (like Leia, Padme, and Mon Mothma) or she could want it for selfish reasons (like Palpatine). The somewhat obsessive, fanatical way she talks about it doesn’t make her seem all that noble.
And we’re still yet (very early days admittedly) to see Din actively stand in her way. Or show so much as a sliver of interest in leading anyone.
The only question is what counts as a defeat in combat when it comes to satisfying the legend.
In terms of canon, we’ve seen Maul claim the Darksaber, having slain its previous wielder. Yet, between Solo and the events of Rebels, it ends up on Dathomir, where Sabine finds it. She then willingly passes it on to Bo-Kayan, recognising her as being better placed as leader.
We can infer that perhaps just being handed it (and therefore power and authority) may not have been enough. But that’s without really knowing what happened on Mandalore between times, other than the Empire glassing the planet and the Saber ending up in Moff Gideon’s hands, without him killing Bo-Katan.
Then there’s the “no true Mandalorian” idea, which they’re yet to fully explore. We do know there are differences in culture between Bo-Katan’s covert and Din’s covert regarding the helmet. But what other differences are there? And where do they stem from? Holy texts, unspoken tradition etc.
Is Bo-Katan even willing to kill Din? Thanks to the mood and pace of the episode, we don’t actually have much of an idea just how far she’ll go. I’d suggest perhaps not. Because if there’s one thing that episode did make absolutely clear is that Din didn’t recognise the Saber for what it is - nor did he have any idea about the lore and legend surrounding it. So it’s not as if Din did any of it with malice aforethought.
That leaves a decent amount of narrative scope to really dig into the background and society/societies of Mandalore.
It could even wind up with Bo-Katan recognising a Foundling, someone with no previous political baggage might be the leader needed. After all, if she did screw up prior to the purge, how truly loyal might her following be with the Saber in hand?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought on the Sabine involvement.
Clan Wren were a noble house on Mandalore. It may be there are different standards between Nobles and Foundlings in terms of the Darksaber.
Another kink in the puzzle is Boba. Bo-Katan and her compatriots make clear that they don't consider him a Mandalorian.
But then he says he never claimed to be. Which is true, he never said he followed any creed, just that the _armour_ belonged to his father.
Din puts pretty high stock in that. I suspect his thinking is that if you've earned Mandalorian armour, you are a Mandalorian. Noble or foundling is irrelevant. Boba's also shown a definite tendency to do right by Boba, way above and beyond what could reasonably be expected.
And now Boba has just taken over the remains of one of the largest criminal empires in the galaxy.
I think that's not going to sit well with Bo-Katan, who is ambivalent to Mandalorians being bounty hunters but is likely to take a much dimmer view to them being actual crime lords.
I don't think Din will see it that way.
With that and whatever remains of his Covert out there (and I'm still going to say that there's a lot more than the Armourer), Din's going to be pulled in a lot of different Mandalorian political directions next series. And he has absolutely no interest or ability in that field.
And that's without whatever happens to Grogu. Interesting times.
What if it’s more complex than Gideon let on? He had an obvious agenda in trying to turn our protagonists against one another at a critical moment and so we can’t accept his words at face value.
Nor does it make much sense. It’s hard to imagine that Bo-Katan really needs to fight someone who makes no claim to either the Darksaber or the mantle of the Mandalor. That would be artificial to the point of absurdity.
To speculate, what if the real difficulty comes down to however Gideon got possession of the Darksaber to begin with — which may have to do with how Bo-Katan lost it? Losing the precious relic to an outsider would be politically humiliating. Did this loss disqualify Bo-Katan as a pretender? Perhaps she must redeem this specific dishonor in order to rehabilitate her political career.
In which case, it could be that Gideon intended to lose to Din specifically to disrupt Bo-Katan’s agenda. I suspect Bo-Katan‘s real problem now actually hinges on failing to redeem her humiliation rather than on Din beating up an elderly Imperial intelligence officer. That is, even in his defeat, Gideon managed to outfox and humiliate Bo-Katan once again.
There’s also the question of just where did Gideon get the phase 3 Dark Troopers?
At first, I for one had his Light Cruiser pegged as a research vessel. A highly mobile base where top secret projects could be worked upon in secrecy, and able to simply jump away from a fight.
But from what we saw? No labs. So I think it’s reasonable he didn’t create them himself. So who did? Are there more? Were they prototypes, or production models?
It seems very possible that’ll play into the new show. Dune has him in custody, and he’s ISB (ex-ISB, possibly). The New Republic will no doubt do what they can to get answers and intel from him. Where might that lead him?
I suspect he’s in with Thrawn to some extent - there could be many links in that chain. It would certainly be the thread that unites Mando, Rangers and Ahsoka together as shows - which we’re told to expect.
Also...don’t lose sight that we’ve no idea what he wanted Grogu for. In fact, on reflection? Season 2 didn’t really answer many questions, but sure left us with a load.
We watched a story about Din and Grogu, not the Imperial Remnant. There’s a lot going on in this setting and not braiding every single thread together into one narrative, as the Sequel Trilogy tended to, makes Star Wars feel bigger rather than smaller.
Gideon's future is likely to be something along the lines of Hannibal Lecter, a behind-bars consultant carefully manipulating his captors. I agree we’ll probably see him play out the role as a part of the Rangers show.
I doubt Gideon has any substantial connection to Thrawn. His connection to the Darktrooper and M-count cloning projects is probably a facet of his ISB background. I suspect Thrawn has a totally separate agenda.
I was suprised that the Dark Troopers were just fancy droids. I was fully expecting them to be cyborgs with high M-count being required to make them work properly. It definitely seems that Grogu's blood was part of some entirely different plan.
I place good odds on the writers having no idea of what that plan is yet; I'm betting that they've learnt from Marvel to just set up a cryptic lead and then figure out when to use it later.
Jadenim wrote: I was suprised that the Dark Troopers were just fancy droids. I was fully expecting them to be cyborgs with high M-count being required to make them work properly. It definitely seems that Grogu's blood was part of some entirely different plan.
I place good odds on the writers having no idea of what that plan is yet; I'm betting that they've learnt from Marvel to just set up a cryptic lead and then figure out when to use it later.
There is the impending mass of Palaptine clones and Snokes. Rey, Grogu is your father (donor)! It does seem really strange that Palpatine would be humble enough to experiment with other sources of force sensitive folks- unless his own genetic material was damaged by plot armoring his way through a reactor and death star explosion, or force lightning. I would have thought Palpatine was totally cool with direct clones.
The Book of Boba Fett, a new Original Series, starring Temuera Morrison and Ming-Na Wen and executive produced by Jon Favreau, Dave Filoni and Robert Rodriguez, set within the timeline of The Mandalorian, is coming to
@DisneyPlus
Dec. 2021.
I'm pretty relieved, while I'm happy to watch more of those characters, I didn't want it to be at the expense of the existing Mandalorian cast and the story they've been telling there.
It's also a simple way to back door pilot a bunch of the other more prominent surviving canon BHs and spin off further if reaction is positive.
I think the reason Bo Katan was so adamant that Boba wasn't a real Mandalorian was that they basically had to publicly denounce Jango Fett during the clone wars. He was essentially excommunicated due to his role with the separatists in Attack of the Clones.
balmong7 wrote: I think the reason Bo Katan was so adamant that Boba wasn't a real Mandalorian was that they basically had to publicly denounce Jango Fett during the clone wars. He was essentially excommunicated due to his role with the separatists in Attack of the Clones.
It might also have to do with her viewing Mandalorian more in the sense of an ethno-culturral group than a creed like Din views them. To her Jango's identity as a Mandalorian is weak and that of his cloned son is basically next to null since he never was even raised in Mandalorian. It also explains why she rejected Maul's leadership as he was "an outsider" in her own words. She wasn't too hot on the Republic occupation of her world at her bequest and militantly opposed to that of the empire. Then again both Din and Bo-Katan have their "no true scotts" issue, but both have shown a certain ability to make exception and temper their views with Bo-Katan obviously respecting Din's courage and sense of honor and Din respecting the fact that not all Mandalorian cover their faces.
Graphite wrote: Another kink in the puzzle is Boba. Bo-Katan and her compatriots make clear that they don't consider him a Mandalorian.
But then he says he never claimed to be. Which is true, he never said he followed any creed, just that the _armour_ belonged to his father.
Din puts pretty high stock in that. I suspect his thinking is that if you've earned Mandalorian armour, you are a Mandalorian. Noble or foundling is irrelevant. Boba's also shown a definite tendency to do right by Boba, way above and beyond what could reasonably be expected.
And now Boba has just taken over the remains of one of the largest criminal empires in the galaxy.
I think that's not going to sit well with Bo-Katan, who is ambivalent to Mandalorians being bounty hunters but is likely to take a much dimmer view to them being actual crime lords.
I don't think Din will see it that way.
With that and whatever remains of his Covert out there (and I'm still going to say that there's a lot more than the Armourer), Din's going to be pulled in a lot of different Mandalorian political directions next series. And he has absolutely no interest or ability in that field.
And that's without whatever happens to Grogu. Interesting times.
This is my reading, but I am thinking the act of Fennec freeing that girl is a pretty blunt statement that Boba isn't so much "taking the reins" of a criminal gang as he is going to start cleaning up the seedy elements in the outer Rim. I'm also curious that since Din saw the armor chain code and saw Jaster's name, he might have recognized the name and that might have given him more trust in Boba.
I think what you are seeing is a very long game where the ideals of what it means to be a mandalorian are being changed, adapted and molded.
Imagine what will happen if Clan Wren shows up next couple of seasons? Buckle in, cause this train has only just left the station.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm pretty relieved, while I'm happy to watch more of those characters, I didn't want it to be at the expense of the existing Mandalorian cast and the story they've been telling there.
It's also a simple way to back door pilot a bunch of the other more prominent surviving canon BHs and spin off further if reaction is positive.
Yeah. If had to chose, I'd choose Mando, and I like Boba and was happy to see him appear in the show. You can't block me like that Disney. I already have such low expectations of you XD
I think it's been mentioned that the Book of Boba Fett is a one off series, immediately before Mandolorian Series 3 starts, rather than an ongoing thing.
Although Rey now sounds like she's from Watford for some reason...
I was shocked at how they tried to lean into the "Finn should have been a Jedi" mindset that a lot of people felt ripped off by from the posters for TFA. They also heavily relied on time travel which a lot of people thought would be a plot point in Episode IX.
I just more or less binged the entire show over the last couple of weeks. It was pretty good.
However, I felt like they fell really hard down the well of making the enemies so incompetent as to remove a lot of tension from the show. It was a huge mark against the prequels for me when they made droids that could be killed out of hand by everyone with no sense of danger. This show definitely did that with the Stormtroopers.
How many times can a person in a helmet be knocked out by a single punch to the face/head? Like, completely leaving aside how useless the armor is against blasters, there are a dozen or so unaugmented face punches that immediately incapacitate a person wearing a full helmet. Then there is the whole "Hey, that guy just shot three of my friends who ran out into the hallway, better run out into the hallway too." moments, as well as a number of times when the bad guys had weapons pointed straight at the protagonists and just... didn't shoot. During the fight on Tython, a Stormtrooper runs up behind Ming-na Wen's character with his blaster pointed at her and she has time to shoot a guy, spin around and shoot him and he never gets a shot off. Functionally every use of the whistling birds or whatever should have resulted in someone pulling a trigger, since that is faster than those mini missiles and yet every time everyone just kind of stands there like Lacey Chabert is coming down the stairs.
All the character stuff, all the lore building, all that was great. But a lot of the gunfights just seemed... ridiculous to me. There isn't even the veneer of "Well, the force makes spinning around during a swordfight and showing your back to your opponent a bunch of times make sense"thing going on, since they aren't Jedi.
Eh. That credibility fell long ago. When 3 foot teddy bears can fell armored and gun-toting soldiers (with armored support) with not-particularly-sharp rocks and sticks, you've essentially got a bunch of cosplayers.
On the other hand, the problem with competent villainous henchmen is you need a big pile of red shirts to sacrifice on a regular basis. For a small cast show, competent enemies is a continual problem.
Its particularly exacerbated in any setting with guns, simply because having the protagonists be 'near exceptional' doesn't actually provide any magical protection from just being shot. Sometimes you need to go the Western route and just have someone important get critically wounded or killed, otherwise there aren't any stakes.
Voss wrote: Eh. That credibility fell long ago. When 3 foot teddy bears can fell armored and gun-toting soldiers (with armored support) with not-particularly-sharp rocks and sticks, you've essentially got a bunch of cosplayers.
On the other hand, the problem with competent villainous henchmen is you need a big pile of red shirts to sacrifice on a regular basis. For a small cast show, competent enemies is a continual problem.
Its particularly exacerbated in any setting with guns, simply because having the protagonists be 'near exceptional' doesn't actually provide any magical protection from just being shot. Sometimes you need to go the Western route and just have someone important get critically wounded or killed, otherwise there aren't any stakes.
I guess, but I just expected more because there are people out there straight-facedly calling this the best tv show that has ever happened. No one is seriously calling ROTJ the best movie in history.
The incompetent stormtroopers are the only issue I have with the show...but it’s a big issue. However as Voss says, if you make them competent, how are the heroes to survive?
I mean, I think it could be done but it require a major rethink. Fewer troopers, putting up much more of a fight individually. And if you want realism (which admittedly Star Wars isn’t really the place for lol) not every shot the heroes fire have to land. A gunfight could, in fact probably should, be both sides in cover firing dozens and dozens of rounds at each other without actually hitting anything.
Future War Cultist wrote: The incompetent stormtroopers are the only issue I have with the show...but it’s a big issue. However as Voss says, if you make them competent, how are the heroes to survive?
I do agree though that Stormtroopers being such a joke kind of detracts from the ability of main characters to be awesome. We except troopers to lose because they suck. I think they actually did an okay job (or at least, a job in the right direction) in the episode where Boba gets his armor back. There was the sergeant trooper who seemed to be experienced and capable, and frustrated with his inadequate troopers. More of that could be rather useful for future narratives. There's really good storm troopers out there, but there's a lot more who are just dudes in armor who have no idea what they're doing. It would make the appearance of an elite squad at some point kind of cool, and produce a setting where things seemed more authentic.
The Death Troopers were arguably supposed to be that elite group. Too bad all we saw them do was show up and point guns at an unarmed scientist farmer and his wife.
Lance845 wrote: The Death Troopers were arguably supposed to be that elite group. Too bad all we saw them do was show up and point guns at an unarmed scientist farmer and his wife.
There’s a squad of them following Vader around in his current self titled comic series. They haven’t done much there yet either however.
It’s also possible that the Troopers left are either the dregs of the former Legions, or relatively raw recruits from still loyal worlds.
Remember though that in Chapter 16, we did see solid tactics. There was a choke point only overcome because two Mandalorians used their jet packs to outflank from an entirely unexpected angle.
I do agree though that Stormtroopers being such a joke kind of detracts from the ability of main characters to be awesome. We except troopers to lose because they suck. I think they actually did an okay job (or at least, a job in the right direction) in the episode where Boba gets his armor back. There was the sergeant trooper who seemed to be experienced and capable, and frustrated with his inadequate troopers. More of that could be rather useful for future narratives. There's really good storm troopers out there, but there's a lot more who are just dudes in armor who have no idea what they're doing. It would make the appearance of an elite squad at some point kind of cool, and produce a setting where things seemed more authentic.
Wut?
They helpfully deployed in three waves rather than all at once
They landed well away from the target
They might as well have been yelling 'banzai' as they ran towards the concealed snipers
They didn't fire the guns on their landing craft at all
Their armour is shattered by Boba's stick They told sniper lady that they didn't want to fight her because they were after the child, despite her just having slaughtered loads of them
They don't shoot when they have clear lines of fire to the protagonists
They're only able to score hit's against Mando's beskar armour plates - nowhere else
They take ages to set up their laser cannon, and then the gunner allows himself to be run over by a boulder straight out of Raiders of the Lost Ark
They make no effort to attack Slave I, either when it is on the ground (despite taking out the Razorcrest), or when it is in the air, clearly following the edgy robots
They literally run away from Boba's stupid knee rockets
They have no air support
They make no use of support fire from their capital ship above
Lance845 wrote: The Death Troopers were arguably supposed to be that elite group. Too bad all we saw them do was show up and point guns at an unarmed scientist farmer and his wife.
Meh. Star Wars isn't meant to be Saving Private Ryan. It's space opera. A modern take on The Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Saturday morning serial type of future fantasy show. The evil henchmen being largely incompetent except where the story calls for more is well in keeping with that style of story telling
I mean, I can understand that not being to everyone's taste, but expecting it to be different seems like an exercise in futility.
insaniak wrote: Meh. Star Wars isn't meant to be Saving Private Ryan. It's space opera. A modern take on The Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Saturday morning serial type of future fantasy show. The evil henchmen being largely incompetent except where the story calls for more is well in keeping with that style of story telling
I mean, I can understand that not being to everyone's taste, but expecting it to be different seems like an exercise in futility.
Pretty much this.
Remember. Bad Guys can’t aim, and Good Guys never run out of ammo.
Ugh, the argument that “X is bad so don’t expect X to be good.” When will people realize this in a way of insulting Star Wars — not defending it?
All of us here know that Star Wars can be good, sometimes even great. Likewise, we should all be comfortable pointing out when Star Wars is dumb and bad. Fighting an entire company of Storm Troopers should be dangerous, not a mild inconvenience. When the stakes evaporate, the story is no longer an adventure. That is a bad thing. Bromsy brings up an entirely legitimate criticism.
Too often in Star Wars, it’s either all or nothing. A character is either an unbeatable badass or a clueless mook. It works best when there is something in between, such as Han Solo running away from a platoon of Storm Troopers or Din getting his ass handed to him by a gaggle of Jawas.
Except during the episode with the truck full of explodium, where Mando's gun does inexplicably run out of ammo/jam (?) after only a couple of shots, and then the stormtroopers guarding the bridge/base gun down the attacking pirate aliens without missing a single shot (one-shotting every single enemy!)
Except during the episode with the truck full of explodium, where Mando's gun does inexplicably run out of ammo/jam (?) after only a couple of shots, and then the stormtroopers guarding the bridge/base gun down the attacking pirate aliens without missing a single shot (one-shotting every single enemy!)
That’ll learn him to wear Bad Guy Armour. It’s clearly a medium for the transference of roles
I give Star Wars a lot of slack because of The Force.
My headcannon is that the Force is basically a semi-sentient consciousness that underlies the universe. Running through all things, binding it together, you know the drill. Now, it’s got plans, it’s got favorites, and it can bend reality to its will. So when “The Force is with you” you get A-level plot armor, and everything breaks your way. When it’s not, you get gunned down like a chump. But the Force is fickle (and it hates stormtroopers).
It’s an in-universe explanation (that mostly holds up) explaining all the stuff we get for it being high fantasy in space. Just replace “the writers” with “the force”
Not sure how well that meshes with The Cannon, but it helps me enjoy things.
Nevelon wrote: I give Star Wars a lot of slack because of The Force.
My headcannon is that the Force is basically a semi-sentient consciousness that underlies the universe. Running through all things, binding it together, you know the drill. Now, it’s got plans, it’s got favorites, and it can bend reality to its will. So when “The Force is with you” you get A-level plot armor, and everything breaks your way. When it’s not, you get gunned down like a chump. But the Force is fickle (and it hates stormtroopers).
It’s an in-universe explanation (that mostly holds up) explaining all the stuff we get for it being high fantasy in space. Just replace “the writers” with “the force”
Not sure how well that meshes with The Cannon, but it helps me enjoy things.
Wow, this is actually a very good explanation. I could definitely support it!
Manchu wrote: Ugh, the argument that “X is bad so don’t expect X to be good.” When will people realize this in a way of insulting Star Wars — not defending it?
.
Nobody was making that argument, though. I never said that the bad guys being unable to shoot straight unless the plot requires it was a bad thing, just that it was an expected thing. I don't have a problem with it, because I don't expect Star Wars to be anything other than the space opera that Lucas has always said he wanted it to be... And that's not a bad thing, because I enjoy that style of movie.
insaniak wrote: the bad guys being unable to shoot straight unless the plot requires it
is not the same thing as this
the space opera that Lucas has always said he wanted it to be
You are conflating a genre with lack of quality. And that is the classic, age-old method of dismissing sci fi, fantasy, and comic books. “It’s just space opera.”
But this doesn’t even address the issue, which has nothing whatsoever to do with genre. It’s a simple matter of universal narrative structure. There have to be stakes. When the scene in question is a gun fight, the stakes are that protagonists could get SHOT. When it becomes apparent that the characters are in no danger of being shot then there are no stakes and so it becomes boring. You can’t hand-waive that problem away by saying “it’s just space opera.”
The other thing is, we’re long past whatever Lucas intended for Star Wars. The OT and (to some extent) the PT were certainly space operas. Rogue One isn’t. The Mandalorian isn’t. The upcoming shows from Disney look to be taking the MCU approach as well, covering a lot of different genres. The “it’s just a space opera” line is less and less relevant.
insaniak wrote: the bad guys being unable to shoot straight unless the plot requires it
is not the same thing as this
the space opera that Lucas has always said he wanted it to be
You are conflating a genre with lack of quality. And that is the classic, age-old method of dismissing sci fi, fantasy, and comic books. “It’s just space opera.”
But this doesn’t even address the issue, which has nothing whatsoever to do with genre. It’s a simple matter of universal narrative structure. There have to be stakes. When the scene in question is a gun fight, the stakes are that protagonists could get SHOT. When it becomes apparent that the characters are in no danger of being shot then there are no stakes and so it becomes boring. You can’t hand-waive that problem away by saying “it’s just space opera.”
The other thing is, we’re long past whatever Lucas intended for Star Wars. The OT and (to some extent) the PT were certainly space operas. Rogue One isn’t. The Mandalorian isn’t. The upcoming shows from Disney look to be taking the MCU approach as well, covering a lot of different genres. The “it’s just a space opera” line is less and less relevant.
This! I don't get how people equate a certain genre with basically accepting mediocrity when there shouldn't be any in the first place. This is the exact same mentality a lot of people have towards cartoons, seeing them as childish or giving them a free pass for being poorly done because they think it's for kids. But that's easily disproven from cartoons that have nuance that is easily accessible to both kids and adults, like the DCAU Batman series, Justice League, or more recent shows like Young Justice or Avatar the Last Airbender.
Similarly, the Mandalorian is 100% a spaghetti western written in space. So while the established setting is still SW, given that it follows the Western genre, you'd expect there to be less flash and more substance and tension when it comes to inevitable showdown between the protagonist and antagonist. The Mandalorian doesn't do too bad of a job there when it comes to Moff Gideon, but in between all of that, the Stormtroopers may as well not exist. When you have a random alien animals and Jawas being more consistent threats to Din than Stormtroopers are, there's a problem when there's a glut of them in the filler episodes. I'd much rather them lower the number of stormtroopers in each scene and have more of a struggle on Din's part to take them down than to literally see them run up and get disarmed in close combat when they could have shot him at range. It gets to the point where you wonder how the Empire even maintained their control when all it takes is people with blasters to gun them down with relative impunity. Given the smaller scale of the show, you would expect the Stormtroopers to be more of a threat as well, because unlike the larger SW films, Din is neither a force sensitive or a war hero, just a competent bounty hunter.
This! I don't get how people equate a certain genre with basically accepting mediocrity when there shouldn't be any in the first place.
There is an irony to how people complain at times that speculative fiction doesn't get respect but then it's also a genre full of dedicated fans who will accept less than the best because they can't accept that something can be both good and flawed.
It's become especially apparent in Star Wars, Star Trek, and a few other long running scifi series the past few years.
The Mandalorian is consistently good and more than occasionally great. There is only one episode (IMO) where the Storm Trooper problem is really to the overall detriment of the storytelling. Most of the time, the stakes driving the tension aren’t JUST about the physical danger but also and more importantly about character development and/or character relationships. So long as the plot of a particular episode doesn’t come down to a prolonged firefight, it isn’t a real threat to the quality of the show. But as S2 went on, and we saw more and more action sequences, it really started to become and issue because there were increasing amounts of screen time where the action was perfunctory because Storm Troopers posed no threat whatsoever.
This! I don't get how people equate a certain genre with basically accepting mediocrity when there shouldn't be any in the first place.
There is an irony to how people complain at times that speculative fiction doesn't get respect but then it's also a genre full of dedicated fans who will accept less than the best because they can't accept that something can be both good and flawed.
It's become especially apparent in Star Wars, Star Trek, and a few other long running scifi series the past few years.
Ironically those same 'dedicated' fans will jump down the throats of creators who they feel aren't faithful to the vision that they idealize, that is pure poison for science fiction, which needs room to wriggle around and play with its ideas. I don't necessarily expect 'good' science fiction out of mass-market franchises (any more than I expect 'good' animation or 'good' family comedy out of the Simpsons) but given the way the Wars and Trek fanbases eviscerate every aspect of every scene, brag about every book they didn't read, etc. is it really any wonder that the studio aims low?
If you want good Sci Fi, read a book. Hell, if you want good Star Wars, read a book - sometimes the stormtroopers even hit people.
Disney and LucasFilm don’t give a gak about what those kinds of fans think. They aren’t aiming low, either. Certainly, the folks behind the Mandalorian aren’t aiming low.
Indeed. It's become increasingly apparent over the years that an awful lot of Star Wars 'fans' don't actually like Star Wars, just their own imagined, idealized version of it.
You can call it 'accepting mediocrity' if you like, but I'm happier having 11 movies and a bunch of other material that I enjoy revisiting repeatedly, than wasting my time complaining about how the makers of those entries don't understand the franchise the way I do and being consistently disappointed. YMMV, obviously.
There’s also the issue, alluded to above, that sci fi and fantasy as imaginative genres sometimes need to “push beyond” whatever is established. As much as can be said against the Prequels (and that is plenty), one has to hand it to those movies in terms of expanding the visual vocabulary of Star Wars, which is no mean feat as it turns out. Thematically, I am pretty eager to see how this new initiative called The High Republic might bring fresh new aspects to the franchise, too. As far as The Mandalorian goes, I think a lot of its best moments have been pursuing the deeper aspects of the Western/Samurai genre elements.
insaniak wrote: Indeed. It's become increasingly apparent over the years that an awful lot of Star Wars 'fans' don't actually like Star Wars, just their own imagined, idealized version of it.
I've refered to it in the past as "fan signaling" in that much the same way the term virtue signaling is used to dimiss people who just wanna be offended by things to prove how "virtueous" they are. people who fan signal are mostly intreasted in picking apart everything to prove "how big a fan they are" it's absolutely bat gak insane because if you hate everything except one or two parts of a franchise, you can't REALLY call yourself a fan.
Honestly it doesn’t Really matter how competent you make the Stormtroopers look. You know the good guys are still gonna win in the end. There’s no real fear that Mando eats a blaster to a spot not covered in plot steel. And even if they’re incompetent, they’ll still win if the story calls for it. Real combat involves everyone sitting in cover, firing dozens of missed shots. It’s boring. Even if I myself mock the stormtroopers, it’s still far more Entertaining to watch the good guys pew pewing bad guys like cans on a fence post while doing sick flips off a Boulder.
AduroT wrote: Honestly it doesn’t Really matter how competent you make the Stormtroopers look. You know the good guys are still gonna win in the end. There’s no real fear that Mando eats a blaster to a spot not covered in plot steel. And even if they’re incompetent, they’ll still win if the story calls for it. Real combat involves everyone sitting in cover, firing dozens of missed shots. It’s boring. Even if I myself mock the stormtroopers, it’s still far more Entertaining to watch the good guys pew pewing bad guys like cans on a fence post while doing sick flips off a Boulder.
This guy gets it. Realistic fight scenes are boring.
Sure, protagonists are unlikely to meet their ends at the hands of mooks. Nonetheless, just the possibility of actually wounding a protagonist would be welcome in contrast to the pointlessness we have come to expect from them. I mean, if running out of ammo were a thing, blasting hapless Storm Troopers would at least drive tension in the sense of reducing the heroes’ capacity to keep on fighting at full capacity but absent that, fighting them is a waste of everyone’s time in- and out-of-universe.
AduroT wrote: Honestly it doesn’t Really matter how competent you make the Stormtroopers look. You know the good guys are still gonna win in the end. There’s no real fear that Mando eats a blaster to a spot not covered in plot steel. And even if they’re incompetent, they’ll still win if the story calls for it. Real combat involves everyone sitting in cover, firing dozens of missed shots. It’s boring. Even if I myself mock the stormtroopers, it’s still far more Entertaining to watch the good guys pew pewing bad guys like cans on a fence post while doing sick flips off a Boulder.
This guy gets it. Realistic fight scenes are boring.
You guys are extrapolating WAAAAY too much from my criticism of the stormtroopers not being a threat. Like I said, when you scale things down in a show that is known for it's galactic conflicts, you have to shift it accordingly to make sure that it still fits the overall narrative. Stormtroopers are just roadblocks to guys like Jedi, but they should do more against non-Force sensitive/war hero level people. Think of it as playing 40k versus Necromunda. In 40k, lasguns are basically weapons you discount as a threat to consider, given that bolters and all these deadlier weapons exist, but they're already a step above autoguns in Necromunda and are closer to the standard to Necromunda due to its smaller gang war scale and how they have to scrounge for resources. Not everyone can have war-level weaponry. The same applies to Mando, where they've established he's a competent bounty hunter and he's had close calls before and thankfully his armour actually does something, but at the same time it's not like he can pull a Luke and murder through 20+ dark troopers.
I'm not asking for Mando to struggle for 30 minutes against two guys. I'm saying that they shouldn't be relentlessly mowed down every time they show up without the Mando or his crew breaking a sweat, since they may as well have just walked through the hallway without anyone being there. By your logic of "realism of boring" and "the protag is gonna win anyways", then would you be satisfied if Mando went solo into Moff Gideon's cruiser with just his jetpack even though it was in space and Moff Gideon just gave him the kid and no one bothered to fight him? Half the fun of watching a show even though you know the protag is going to win is the process and the struggle in between. Just like in a video game you know that in most cases the player character will succeed, it doesn't change the fact that going through the struggle is a big part of the fun, but only IF it's not overly monotonous or numbingly easy, because then whats the point?
I like the Mandalorian as a show, but just because I like it doesn't mean that I can't constructively criticize it or suggest improvements? Are people seriously saying they wouldn't enjoy more tense fights with stormtroopers instead of going through the motions of them dying? Because if I want that, I'd watch Rebels.
I totally agree with the video game analogy. This ties into the point I was trying to make about limited ammo. In a video game or even a table top RPG, mooks are there mostly to wear you down before the boss fight and make you think about managing your resources. If they do not even pose that challenge, they might as well not exist. It’s just a waste of time.
In a show like The Mandalorian, we’re not really going to want to count ammo (aside from extremely powerful weapons like Din’s Whistling Bird or Boba’s rocket pack) so fighting a pack of Storm Troopers or other mooks should at the very least take some effort and pose a risk of minor wounds. The worst that happened to a protagonist so far is she killed so many Storm Troopers so quickly that her gun jammed for about 10 seconds.
I don't think Stormtrooper have looked especially useless in the Mandalorian. They managed to get their moments to shine once in a while and served their purpose as to establish that our heroes/villains are cut from another cloth and that the Empire and its hold-overs is ruled by moral monsters whose preferred military tactic is to swarm their enemies with wave after wave of faceless, completelely endoctrinated troopers to drown any opposition. It's shown pretty well when they attack a rocky hill held by two snipers without any sort of air or ground artilley support (a suicide tactic if there is one). Even then, they do have their moments. In episode 3, they manage to keep the heroes pin down and about to bring them to their doom until the Mandalorian makes a feat of insane heroism. In the last episode of the first season, they almost kill the hero and his band and even in the 6th episode of the 2nd season, they manage to get two of the heroes cornered and about to die when they are suddenly saved by Boba Fett's sudden reaperence. It's also in this episode that they actually succeed in their mission of capturing Grogu.
The episode you most heavily reference is the only episode of the show that I think is not good specifically because the Storm Troopers are so absurdly bumbling and useless and basically nothing else is going on. Holding that up as your example of Storm Troopers portrayed as dangerous is truly baffling.
Manchu wrote: The episode you most heavily reference is the only episode of the show that I think is not good specifically because the Storm Troopers are so absurdly bumbling and useless and basically nothing else is going on. Holding that up as your example of Storm Troopers portrayed as dangerous is truly baffling.
They won that battle and help establish Gideon futher as a mass murderer of his own men, cornered two main character and almost killed them. What more do you want? Them doing it easily? For what purpose?
epronovost wrote: I don't think Stormtrooper have looked especially useless in the Mandalorian. They managed to get their moments to shine once in a while and served their purpose as to establish that our heroes/villains are cut from another cloth and that the Empire and its hold-overs is ruled by moral monsters whose preferred military tactic is to swarm their enemies with wave after wave of faceless, completelely endoctrinated troopers to drown any opposition. It's shown pretty well when they attack a rocky hill held by two snipers without any sort of air or ground artilley support (a suicide tactic if there is one). Even then, they do have their moments. In episode 3, they manage to keep the heroes pin down and about to bring them to their doom until the Mandalorian makes a feat of insane heroism. In the last episode of the first season, they almost kill the hero and his band and even in the 6th episode of the 2nd season, they manage to get two of the heroes cornered and about to die when they are suddenly saved by Boba Fett's sudden reaperence. It's also in this episode that they actually succeed in their mission of capturing Grogu.
Gotta agree with Manchu, that just highlights my point that stormtroopers are not a credible threat when they have to rely on human wave tactics which ALSO proves to be unsuccessful. The Empire remnants at this point are tattered and battered troopers that are either raw recruits or hardened veterans, they shouldn't be able to use those tactics effectively anymore when they are no longer the dominant power in the galaxy. The Empire doesn't have the vast recruitment pool they used to have anymore, it would be more likely to imply they're hardened vets since most newbies would have already deserted or surrendered at this point, so the suicidal tendencies of these stormtroopers doesn't make much sense in that regard.
Also, you misattribute the mission success to capturing Grogu, since it was the dark troopers and not the stormtroopers who did that. The stormtroopers died literally for nothing, since all they had to do was wait for Grogu's weird force shield to turn off and do the same thing.
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with Manchu, that just highlights my point that stormtroopers are not a credible threat when they have to rely on human wave tactics which ALSO proves to be unsuccessful. The Empire remnants at this point are tattered and battered troopers that are either raw recruits or hardened veterans, they shouldn't be able to use those tactics effectively anymore when they are no longer the dominant power in the galaxy. The Empire doesn't have the vast recruitment pool they used to have anymore, it would be more likely to imply they're hardened vets since most newbies would have already deserted or surrendered at this point, so the suicidal tendencies of these stormtroopers doesn't make much sense in that regard.
The Empire isn't a "rational or effective" government and military machine. It is and always was a dogmatic engine filled with ideologues who have a political view of war, not a strategical and tactical one. They use tactics that are ruinous because they are their tactics. I think the following episode further enforce this idea by describing how their officers are so proud to have launched ruinous suicidal attacks out of pure spite because it shows their dedication to a cruel and pityless order. Even in Solo they show that Empire war machine works on wave after wave of poorly train, brainwashed troops launching themselves at the enemy and suffering horrible casualties. Yes, the Empire was ruled by a madman, supported by his sycophant and similarly genocidal monsters. The rational Imperial officers have already jumped ship when the Emperor and Vader died and those left in the Mandalorian are the most hardcore supporter of the Empire's war machine and doctrine. You can see it in episode 3 of season 2 when the ship's captain goes straight to suicide without a hint of hesitation.
Also, you misattribute the mission success to capturing Grogu, since it was the dark troopers and not the stormtroopers who did that. The stormtroopers died literally for nothing, since all they had to do was wait for Grogu's weird force shield to turn off and do the same thing.
The force shield is unknown to the Imperials, though they might suspect it, and sending the Dark Trooper to snatch Grogu was only effective if nobod was there to gun down the Dark Trooper as they move in. The Stormtroopers were a diversion and it worked perfectly. They played their part well.
It’s not clear why Gideon deployed any Storm Troopers on Tython. They did not need to act as a diversion as, pretty clearly, the Dark Troopers would have handily killed Din, Boba, and Fennec and extracted the Child. Perhaps he acted out of an abundance of caution?
Perhaps, as epronovost seems to argue, the Imperial mindset is rigidly committed to intentionally wasteful tactics as a matter of some inscrutable ideological factor. Although, I have to say, that sounds like rubbish to me. Operation Cinder really has no bearing on the sheer incompetence we see on Tython from the Storm Troopers, other than the notion that literally all that’s left of Gideon’s manpower are slapstick nincompoops; which I don’t think is impossible.
But nevertheless that still doesn’t solve the problem of it making for a very weak action scene.
As Manchu mentioned, the Stormtroopers weren't needed since Mando barely managed to kill one and only by pure luck with the beskar spear, which he didn't have at the time, nor his jetpack, meaning he would have been royally screwed since there were like 3-4 versus the one he was facing alone. Boba maybe could have killed 1 or 2 with his rocket pack missile, but given that they were clearly blaster resistant, they could have easily killed them all if they were deployed earlier.
Also, I feel that if the Imperial war machine was this incompetent, then how did they manage to even conquer or maintain rule over the galaxy for so long? Prior to the construction of the Death Star, the Imperial military was the main way to keep dissident planets in line, if they were this wasteful with resources there's no way the Rebellion would have to be so covert for so long. Hell, the attack on Hoth would have failed miserably if Stormtroopers are as garbage as you hold them to be.
Also, as far as I know in Solo, the soldiers they display there which Han is part of aren't stormtroopers. They're known as swamp troopers and are explicitly outside of the Stormtrooper Corps as part of the regular Imperial infantry. So that's not a good example of the Empire being super idiotic with their use of stormtroopers.
Maybe the Rebellion didn’t really win so much as the Empire simply disintegrated under the stress of sheer incompetence at all levels, continuing on without disruption in the post-Endor situation.
Grimskul wrote: Also, I feel that if the Imperial war machine was this incompetent, then how did they manage to even conquer or maintain rule over the galaxy for so long? Prior to the construction of the Death Star, the Imperial military was the main way to keep dissident planets in line, if they were this wasteful with resources there's no way the Rebellion would have to be so covert for so long. Hell, the attack on Hoth would have failed miserably if Stormtroopers are as garbage as you hold them to be.
The Empire lasted a big fat 20 years from the end of the Clone Wars to the death of Palpatine. That's not a long time at all and during all that time they lost, bit by bit control fo the situation the moment organised rebellious efforts start. The only reason the Empire "lasted so long", was that they didn't get involved in any major fight for a decade except against small independant planets who clearly don't have the resources of a galactic empire. It's easy to win when you are a bully that attacks only the weak. The main strength of the Empire always was it's vast fleet of star destroyers and their super weapons and machineries. They have war walkes and tanks while their opponents don't or have so very few. It's not their troops or its officers quality that made them dangerous.
Manchu wrote: Maybe the Rebellion didn’t really win so much as the Empire simply disintegrated under the stress of sheer incompetence at all levels, continuing on without disruption in the post-Endor situation.
Possibly. Palpatine never intended the Empire to ever continue without him, given the clear lack of succession in the Imperial hierarchy. Most of the Imperial power structure was funnelled to currying favour with the Emperor, which meant that with his and Vader's death, it would basically fracture into warring Moffs over their own personal fiefdoms, similar to the warlord period of China after the Qing dynasty collapsed and Yuan Shikai's failed attempt at becoming the next Emperor of China.
Grimskul wrote: Also, I feel that if the Imperial war machine was this incompetent, then how did they manage to even conquer or maintain rule over the galaxy for so long? Prior to the construction of the Death Star, the Imperial military was the main way to keep dissident planets in line, if they were this wasteful with resources there's no way the Rebellion would have to be so covert for so long. Hell, the attack on Hoth would have failed miserably if Stormtroopers are as garbage as you hold them to be.
The Empire lasted a big fat 20 years from the end of the Clone Wars to the death of Palpatine. That's not a long time at all and during all that time they lost, bit by bit control fo the situation the moment organised rebellious efforts start. The only reason the Empire "lasted so long", was that they didn't get involved in any major fight for a decade except against small independant planets who clearly don't have the resources of a galactic empire. It's easy to win when you are a bully that attacks only the weak. The main strength of the Empire always was it's vast fleet of star destroyers and their super weapons, not their troops or its officer.
I think you underestimate how important occupying forces are when it comes to planets. Ships are super important for mobility and power projection, but manpower is huge when it comes to actually ensuring compliance on potentially dissident planets. You can't exactly check house to house with giant tanks, and super weapons like the Death Star didn't come into play until near the end of the Empire. If ships/tech were all that were needed, then the U.S. wouldn't need military bases all over the world. Also, by your very logic then, why wasn't there an outright open secessionist movement like the Separatists did like in the Clone Wars? Why did the Rebellion need to work in cells covertly with one another to undermine Imperial control when they could just collectively flip the bird at the Imperials and rebel in a coordinated fashion? If the Empire's main forces are this weak and incompetent, it should be even easier for the Rebels to win than the Republic did back in the Clone Wars now that you don't have Sidious puppeteering both sides of the war.
Grimskul wrote: I think you underestimate how important occupying forces are when it comes to planets. Ships are super important for mobility and power projection, but manpower is huge when it comes to actually ensuring compliance on potentially dissident planets. You can't exactly check house to house with giant tanks, and super weapons like the Death Star didn't come into play until near the end of the Empire. If ships/tech were all that were needed, then the U.S. wouldn't need military bases all over the world. Also, by your very logic then, why wasn't there an outright open secessionist movement like the Separatists did like in the Clone Wars? Why did the Rebellion need to work in cells covertly with one another to undermine Imperial control when they could just collectively flip the bird at the Imperials and rebel in a coordinated fashion? If the Empire's main forces are this weak and incompetent, it should be even easier for the Rebels to win than the Republic did back in the Clone Wars now that you don't have Sidious puppeteering both sides of the war.
Because it takes a LOT of money to create, finance, command and equip an army. It also takes time. The galaxy, while heavily armed in general, wasn't very militarised. There is mention that the Republic had no standing army before the Clone Wars, most planets had tiny defense forces and corporations were the more heavily armed factions. The galaxy was just recovering from a giant war that opposed the Republic and an alliance piloted by giant mega-corporation. Following the defeat of their army and the disasembly of their droid factory, you would need to create entirely new factories to produce new weapons bankrolled by basically nobody. At best you end up with a collection of often competing rebel cells composed of poorly equipped and untrained fighters. That's not a threat even for poorly trained and commanded soldiers provided they are numerous enough and rely on terror tactics to rob those "freedom fighter" from local support (or multiply it by 10; creating a mass rebellion movement that unify itself). If that sounds exactly how the rebellion started and ended it's not a coincidence. The Empire was completely inefficient at stopping rebel cells from coordonating, acquiring new war material (down to star ships and battle cruisers) and new recruits to fill in their casualties. That's why they lost the war so quickly. 20 years to completely overthrow a galactic empire that was born after being the only faction in the galaxy with an army and a star fleet is very short.
Don't forget for many under the Empire's rule it didn't happen overnight. Plus for many core worlds the Empire coming into being represented the end of a period of war and threat from the machine based empires/trade unions that were rising up and causing trouble. In theory worlds like Naboo would have welcomed the Emperor and the Empire for having freed them from trade embargo threats.
The twisting of the knife came slower and later and isn't something we actually see much of. Indeed when you pause and think about it was life under the Emperor honestly that bad? Even Tatooine was likely safer with the Empire in charge than the Hutts.
This is honestly one failing of the series, but its because it approaches things in a high-fantasy style where its all focused on the ruling classes. We don't honestly see life as a citizen very much and the snippets we do see don't seem to be that bad; unless you're a rebel or a smuggler.
I should probably start a new thread for this but it’s such a small detail it probably won’t matter but, do all the completely different stormtrooper uniforms and equipment make any sense from a logistical point of view? Obviously certain environments and terrains demand specialist suits but does driving a certain vehicle or using a certain gun demand a completely different uniform?
Future War Cultist wrote: I should probably start a new thread for this but it’s such a small detail it probably won’t matter but, do all the completely different stormtrooper uniforms and equipment make any sense from a logistical point of view? Obviously certain environments and terrains demand specialist suits but does driving a certain vehicle or using a certain gun demand a completely different uniform?
When you consider the sheer scale of the Empire it actually makes a lot of sense. The Army started out as the Clone army produced on one world with a single production focus. So they'd have had the same generic gear and at the time a central production and logistics setup.
As things shift from the Republic to the Empire you start to see more troops deployed everywhere. This would necessitate the installation of different production facilities in different regions to allow troops to be more efficiently supported by logistics and to reduce the potential for bottlenecks; overrunning supplies and for attacks on supplies. Once you start to out-source production to different regions you create the grounds for allowing local variation. Differences in regional resources might necessitate some changes to better account for local shortages and excess. You might also have different leaders ordering different customised suits and uniforms. This might be purely vanity or serve for local regional variations in environments and thus serve a functional aspect.
You also cannot overlook timescales. Even if they kept to a generic design there's every chance that a central change to design wouldn't get rolled out everywhere at once. So you could have multiple generations of armour and suits out there at different stages of being updated.
Manchu wrote:Maybe the Rebellion didn’t really win so much as the Empire simply disintegrated under the stress of sheer incompetence at all levels, continuing on without disruption in the post-Endor situation.
When they introduced it into canon, it seems like Operation Cinder was originally supposed to be the be-all and end-all explanation for the collapse of the Empire as a political body and ideology. Basically have the Empire shoot itself in the foot with a gun so big it couldn't possibly recover, and anyone in the empire that was halfway sympathetic would quit in disgust, paving the way for a 30 year peace under a benevolent New Republic.
Obviously someone underestimated how much writers love Imperial Remnant stories, since in practice the narrative device of Operation Cinder has made it so the hostility remnant forces show to each other, the lack of support and equipment, and general bad morale and performance among the rank and file are now no longer neccesarily due to a chain of bravado and incompetence all the way up the chain of command, but more likely simply because that unit has had its support structure undercut and is desperate to stay afloat.
Future War Cultist wrote:I should probably start a new thread for this but it’s such a small detail it probably won’t matter but, do all the completely different stormtrooper uniforms and equipment make any sense from a logistical point of view? Obviously certain environments and terrains demand specialist suits but does driving a certain vehicle or using a certain gun demand a completely different uniform?
Honestly no, that's about selling toys, and I would much prefer to see variations on stormtrooper armour than a completely different helmet and brest plate for every role from line trooper to truck driver to janitor.
Not to get to political, but Imperials are fascists.
Part of fascist ideology IS the core idea that it is a death cult. Every fascist is a "hero" but ones heroism can only be proven in death. Therefore, their ideological war fighting doctrines need to embrace some form of self-destructive tendencies.
Per Ecco:
Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.
Some of the other tenets and definitions also outline why the Empire still uses some tactics that they do. Interesting reading to apply to this fiction setting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Maybe the Rebellion didn’t really win so much as the Empire simply disintegrated under the stress of sheer incompetence at all levels, continuing on without disruption in the post-Endor situation.
Yes, that is pretty much exactly what happened. How else do you explain Operation: Cinder?
Manchu wrote: Maybe the Rebellion didn’t really win so much as the Empire simply disintegrated under the stress of sheer incompetence at all levels, continuing on without disruption in the post-Endor situation.
Yes, that is pretty much exactly what happened. How else do you explain Operation: Cinder?
Cinder was the Emperor's idea, not any remnant commander's.
I don't think it's that bizarre, given that at the time they came up with it, the plan was not to have Sheev come back - burning down the Empire in front of whoever (Vader or Luke, he would presume) tried to take it from him. The fact that it would kill trillions of people, including capable soldiers loyal to him is just gravy on top - because he was a cruel, petty, spiteful man who brutalized his allies and enemies alike.
It only stops working once we factor in him being alive all along thanks to Rise of Skywalker... but retconning the Emperor's bareheaded decisions into 5D Chess has always been left to the books anyway, give them a few years and someone will say it all makes perfect sense.
Manchu wrote: Maybe the Rebellion didn’t really win so much as the Empire simply disintegrated under the stress of sheer incompetence at all levels, continuing on without disruption in the post-Endor situation.
Yes, that is pretty much exactly what happened. How else do you explain Operation: Cinder?
Cinder was the Emperor's idea, not any remnant commander's.
Sure, it was his idea, but who has to carry it out?
Hint: It wasn't the droid army, the clones, or the Republic.
Future War Cultist wrote:I should probably start a new thread for this but it’s such a small detail it probably won’t matter but, do all the completely different stormtrooper uniforms and equipment make any sense from a logistical point of view? Obviously certain environments and terrains demand specialist suits but does driving a certain vehicle or using a certain gun demand a completely different uniform?
Honestly no, that's about selling toys, and I would much prefer to see variations on stormtrooper armour than a completely different helmet and brest plate for every role from line trooper to truck driver to janitor.
Indeed, the original idea for Stormtroopers was that they were all identical, which was supposed to add to their fear factor, as it made it impossible to tell the raw recruits from the elite veterans. But... variants sell.
And there is a certain amount of logic in units or crew having gear that is tailored specifically for thier role, even if it does make resupply a little more complicated.
Manchu wrote: Maybe the Rebellion didn’t really win so much as the Empire simply disintegrated under the stress of sheer incompetence at all levels, continuing on without disruption in the post-Endor situation.
Yes, that is pretty much exactly what happened. How else do you explain Operation: Cinder?
Cinder was the Emperor's idea, not any remnant commander's.
Sure, it was his idea, but who has to carry it out?
Hint: It wasn't the droid army, the clones, or the Republic.
Sorry, I thought you were saying Cinder was a sign of incompetence because you thought the plan itself was dumb.
Are you saying the problem was in the implementation? Something underwhelming about the trillions killed and countless planets rendered uninhabitable?
Future War Cultist wrote:I should probably start a new thread for this but it’s such a small detail it probably won’t matter but, do all the completely different stormtrooper uniforms and equipment make any sense from a logistical point of view? Obviously certain environments and terrains demand specialist suits but does driving a certain vehicle or using a certain gun demand a completely different uniform?
Honestly no, that's about selling toys, and I would much prefer to see variations on stormtrooper armour than a completely different helmet and brest plate for every role from line trooper to truck driver to janitor.
Indeed, the original idea for Stormtroopers was that they were all identical, which was supposed to add to their fear factor, as it made it impossible to tell the raw recruits from the elite veterans. But... variants sell.
And there is a certain amount of logic in units or crew having gear that is tailored specifically for thier role, even if it does make resupply a little more complicated.
I get the argument, certainly. If your janitor needs to scrub the floors of a live fire zone he should have whatever protection the Empire thinks he's worth and fly the flag and all that, it's just weird that they have a radically different armour design for outdoor patrols at the sandy vacation gettaway base when a beige stormtrooper with a skirt or something would probably make more sense in universe and cater to the preferences of biased nerds like me.
But I feel like them doubling and tripling down on these different armour marks and variants plays up this idea that Lucasfilm embraced wholehartedly before the acquisition that Storm Trooper armour was inherently bad (and Clone Trooper armour was inherently good) at literally everything it was meant to do, it doesn't provide protection, it doesn't stay clean, it hinders the sight of every operator who uses it, it doesn't intimidate anyone, so they need an alternative to allow stormtroopers to be halfway effective at operating in a scout role, operating in temperature extreeme environments, and now, driving trucks. And I always kinda hoped that splitting the EU off into Legends was part of some plan to make stormies and ties more threatening than the speed bumps that years of supplemental material had whittled them down to.
I feel like this is one place where perceptions are skewed by the fact that most of the time when we see people shooting at stormtroopers, it's the heroes, who are better shots than the average goon. According to the background material, stormtrooper armour is supposed to provide protection from glancing blaster shots by dispersing the impact and the energy from the shot, but won't hold up to a direct hit. But the only time we really see this in action is when they storm the Tantive at the start of Episode IV against the hail of fire from the rebel troopers. From then on, we just see a constant succession of troopers being consistently felled by single shots, which gives the impression that ze armour, it does nussing.
It would be nice to see more scenes thrown in where stormtroopers are a bit more durable... but really, the idea that they're wearing mass produced armour designed to intimidate while not actually delivering the protection promised by the manufacturer isn't too out there, either.
I feel like this is one place where perceptions are skewed by the fact that most of the time when we see people shooting at stormtroopers, it's the heroes, who are better shots than the average goon.
Which is problematic since pretty much none of them should be. 'Farm' boy, princess, pilot and co-pilot/mechanic. None of them spends part of most days drilling with guns the way a soldier should/could. Arguably Leia is the most likely to have dedicated defense lessons, but she's from 'a peaceful planet with no weapons.' Han and Chewie would have some practical gun skills, but not regular practice. Same is pretty much true for the Sequel trilogy, except for Poe.
The prequels have the best case for characters with heroic fightin' skillz. But, you know, laser swords, not guns.
Voss wrote: Which is problematic since pretty much none of them should be. 'Farm' boy, princess, pilot and co-pilot/mechanic. None of them spends part of most days drilling with guns the way a soldier should/could. Arguably Leia is the most likely to have dedicated defense lessons, but she's from 'a peaceful planet with no weapons.' Han and Chewie would have some practical gun skills, but not regular practice. Same is pretty much true for the Sequel trilogy, except for Poe.
The prequels have the best case for characters with heroic fightin' skillz. But, you know, laser swords, not guns.
Th entire cast of heroes in the Mandalorian also classes as weapon and combat expert since the main character is a high caliber bounty hunter raised as a warrior since infancy, an ex-imperial assassin, another high caliber bounty hunter raised as a warrior since infancy, a couple of war veteran warriors who have trained in since their youngest age, an elite soldier with high experience of combat and Grogu, the most adorable lifeform in Star Wars... okay maybe not that last one.
Which is problematic since pretty much none of them should be. 'Farm' boy, princess, pilot and co-pilot/mechanic. None of them spends part of most days drilling with guns the way a soldier should/could. Arguably Leia is the most likely to have dedicated defense lessons, but she's from 'a peaceful planet with no weapons.' Same is pretty much true for the Sequel trilogy, except for Poe.
The prequels have the best case for characters with heroic fightin' skillz. But, you know, laser swords.
Luke grew up on a farm and carries a rifle around in his speeder which he presumably knows how to use, has the Force, and when he's not picking up power converters with his mates, spends his weekends bulls-eying womp rats in his T-16. Leia is a member of the Rebel Alliance and a spy (Take her away!) and has the Force. Chewie is a 200-ish-year old war veteran, and Han has always been described as an exceptional shot. He'd call it luck.
And also they're the heroes in a spaghetti western in space, so of course they're good shots.
Which is problematic since pretty much none of them should be. 'Farm' boy, princess, pilot and co-pilot/mechanic. None of them spends part of most days drilling with guns the way a soldier should/could. Arguably Leia is the most likely to have dedicated defense lessons, but she's from 'a peaceful planet with no weapons.' Same is pretty much true for the Sequel trilogy, except for Poe.
The prequels have the best case for characters with heroic fightin' skillz. But, you know, laser swords.
Luke grew up on a farm and carries a rifle around in his speeder which he presumably knows how to use, has the Force, and when he's not picking up power converters with his mates, spends his weekends bulls-eying womp rats in his T-16. Leia is a member of the Rebel Alliance and a spy (Take her away!) and has the Force. Chewie is a 200-ish-year old war veteran, and Han has always been described as an exceptional shot. He'd call it luck.
And also they're the heroes in a spaghetti western in space, so of course they're good shots.
Sure, genre conventions handwave a lot of stuff.
The point is, various civilians and dubiously a 'war veteran' (he vaguely stood around in a cameo scene with yoda and 200? really?) vs soldiers; soldiers win. It isn't even a contest with movie genre BS.
I know I'm very late to the party (like several days later!) but I'm finally watching the Mandalorian. I'm two episodes into the first season and like it so far. It's bittersweet in that I'm finally enjoying something/anything Disney Star Wars again (the only other time being Rogue One) but disappointing in that the sequel trilogy was such a wasted opportunity.
Well, yes, but having the heroes all shot and killed by the highly competent and well equipped enemy soldiers in the first three minutes of the movie would have made for a much shorter-lived franchise.
...dubiously a 'war veteran' (he vaguely stood around in a cameo scene with yoda and 200? really?) ...
He also takes out a droid tank with a vine and a meltabomb.
And yes, 200-ish. He gives his age as 190 in Solo.
Easy E wrote:I am saying Fascism leads to wasteful tactics, and the Empire is fascist. Such wasteful tactics are defined by Operation: Cinder.
Ok, I see where you're coming from now, but I still wouldn't characterize it as incompetence. The Imperials who carry out Operation: Cinder (except the boots on the grounds and wings in the air... sometimes) understand that the math doesn't add up - those who carry on regardless out of fanatical devotion to the Emperor go on to form the ideological foundation of the First Order, those who fall short of that ideal by degrees are ultimately betrayed when the messenger droids stop giving them instructions, and are left to die at the hands of a vengeful galaxy. While we do see examples of truly incompetent Imperial Remnant forces in the canon material, so far, to my knowledge, they're officers and units who were not selected to participate in Operation: Cinder at all.
Alphabet Squadron does a good job characterizing the sort of people you'd see defecting from the Empire before Alderaan blew up, and the sorts of people who'd justify staying after, and the sorts who would justify fighting for the Empire after Operation: Cinder began, with little windows into how the process makes them more and more extreme over time. (There's a brief mention of a Star Destroyer that approaches republic forces, alone and outgunned. The captain hails them, surrenders his vessel and crew to the lawful galactic government, and is immediately shot by one of the junior officers on the bridge, starting a firefight throughout the ship.)
I also think you might like Lindsay Ellis' video essay on the Ideology of the First Order (and Disney's desire to tiptoe around it so they can print storm trooper t-shirts), though I suspect you may have seen it.
I feel like this is one place where perceptions are skewed by the fact that most of the time when we see people shooting at stormtroopers, it's the heroes, who are better shots than the average goon. According to the background material, stormtrooper armour is supposed to provide protection from glancing blaster shots by dispersing the impact and the energy from the shot, but won't hold up to a direct hit. But the only time we really see this in action is when they storm the Tantive at the start of Episode IV against the hail of fire from the rebel troopers. From then on, we just see a constant succession of troopers being consistently felled by single shots, which gives the impression that ze armour, it does nussing.
It would be nice to see more scenes thrown in where stormtroopers are a bit more durable... but really, the idea that they're wearing mass produced armour designed to intimidate while not actually delivering the protection promised by the manufacturer isn't too out there, either.
You're not wrong, I've heard (and rather like) the argument that Stormtrooper armour keeps the wearer alive when they'd otherwise be super dead.
It's just that the Empire has this long, long laundry list of pointless flaws that only really existed in the EU as subsequent authors felt the need to come up with new reasons that 'explain' how the Rebels even have a chance against them (because the idea that a decentralized non-government organization from the middle of nowhere reaching out and attacking a superpower seemed impossible to authors in the 90s I guess?), but predictably enough making the Empire progressively less competent made the plucky rebels progressively less plucky. The reason I was optimistic about the Legends split was that it presented them with an opportunity to discard some of the sillier aspects of the EU and hopefully make the Empire more threatening.
Which, for the record, they did do for a lot of stuff: Ackbar didn't design the A and B wings himself on the back of a dinner napkin (the A-Wing is now an older design that lost out to the tie fighter for mass Imperial production that the Rebels fielded before acquiring X-Wings and turned in to hotrods after), and Darth Vader no longer has to worry about falling to his death every time he lumbers into a staircase. I just wish the stormtroopers were allowed to be the scary faceless mooks they were in the OT, unironically.
The example I'm specifically thinking of is from Rebels (so, post Disney acquisition) where Wrex readily and frequently talks the armour's quality down, culminating in a shootout where he can't hit anything until he takes the helmet off, declares he can't see with it on, and throws it at a stormtrooper (no doubt, killing him).
It's probably the seeing stuff part that annoys me the most - I once read an explanation for it saying each stormtrooper's helmets and boots were specifically fitted for the individual trooper and that's the reason they give people trouble when they commandeer them - but I doubt that's the official stance anymore, if it ever was.
Also, we're looking from a very modern perspective in this - experienced militia vs. modern military should, and will, result in a total stomping for the militia.
Wind back to The Old West (or at least that time period) - how big was the gap between an above average civilian, possibly an American Civil War veteran and soldiers of the US army of the time?
Graphite wrote: Wind back to The Old West (or at least that time period) - how big was the gap between an above average civilian, possibly an American Civil War veteran and soldiers of the US army of the time?
In terms of individual fighting skills, the militia men described in your example would probably be slightly superior, but war is a team effort and the organisation and command structure of an army will make it crush the militia easily in a conventional warfare..
Graphite wrote: Also, we're looking from a very modern perspective in this - experienced militia vs. modern military should, and will, result in a total stomping for the militia.
Wind back to The Old West (or at least that time period) - how big was the gap between an above average civilian, possibly an American Civil War veteran and soldiers of the US army of the time?
Might depend on the equipment.
If your Olde Timey GI had a Rifle, and the Miilitia a Musket, distinct advantage to the GI.
If both had Muskets, probably advantage to the Veteran (especially in reloading times, as they’re more likely to know Sharpe’s reloading technique).
Right. So in most of the actions we see in Star Wars, we're following a small group of relativity experienced fighters (the heroes / militia) against a relatively small number of regular soldiers, who have equivalent equipment and possibly less training. This may give the militia an advantage.
On the occasions The Empire gets to fight as a proper army, e.g. Hoth, the equivalent Rebel army loses, badly.
And Endor becomes the US army trying to "pacify" the west, which wasn't as straight forward as technology differences would indicate.
Grimskul wrote: Also, as far as I know in Solo, the soldiers they display there which Han is part of aren't stormtroopers. They're known as swamp troopers and are explicitly outside of the Stormtrooper Corps as part of the regular Imperial infantry. So that's not a good example of the Empire being super idiotic with their use of stormtroopers.
Migs Mayfeld also made it clear that although he was Imperial Military, he wasn't a Stormtrooper.
Ok, I finally watched the Mandalorian and I have probably a likely unpopular hot take...
Spoiler:
I'd have preferred if the person arriving at the end to save the day had been Asokha having revised her position after feeling Grogu through the stones. I'm not actually a big fan of her in Clone Wars as I only watched the first season where she was an ultra-annoying sidekick tween calling her Jedi Master Anakin "Sky Guy"... but I think her portrayal in the second season episode was quite good. Obviously, I've missed all the years of intervening character development for her both in Clone Wars and Resistance as I literally went from season 1 Clone Wars to Mando Season 2 in regards to her character. I'm not a Luke Skywalker hater either being old enough to grow up in Star Wars' heyday and being an avid fan of the EU for both the original and prequel trilogies (at least until they were disavowed by Darth Mickey) but I felt the special effects for him (both visuals and audio) were off putting. Plus, I think that the concurrent incorporation of Boba Fett already scratched the OT nostalgia itch for me. YMMV.
So I followup up my Mandalorian two season watch (not sure if it's considered a proper "binge" if you do it over a week and a half) with finally seeing ROS... wow was that a big dumb two plots worth of action crammed into one to make up for the previous entry movie. Yesterday, I rewatched my first ever Disney era Star Wars anything in Rogue One and it was better than I remembered. I thought it was good (not perfect or great but simply good) and it's even better a few years later with a rewatch. I'll admit that my standards may have been reset by the intervening trio of gak films (Solo, TLJ, ROS) but I've also watched the Mandalorian seasons in short order which were markedly better. I'd put Rogue One at slightly better overall than the Mandalorian seasons combined (though I'd individually rate some episodes individually as better than the film). What obviously I didn't catch the first time around since Mando didn't yet exist is how similar in tone and pacing the two feel compared with the other films. If anyone hasn't rewatched it since Mando, I'd invite you to and would be curious if you agree or disagree. Regardless, the U-wing is and always will be awesome!
The Mandalorian Actress Gina Carano Fired by Lucasfilm The actress' recent comments sparked backlash on social media.
Actress Gina Carano, known for playing former Rebel Alliance soldier Cara Dune on Disney's the Mandalorian, has been fired from the show, according to io9.
In a statement sent to io9, a Lucasfilm representative spoke on the matter: “Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future. Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.”
Carano was the subject of much criticism recently when, in a now-deleted Instagram post, she compared being a modern-day Republican to being Jewish during the Holocaust. The hashtag #FireGinaCarano has trended on social media in recent months after other incendiary comments by the television and film star.
Sources tell the Hollywood Reporter that Lucasfilm planned on announcing in December that Carano would star in her own Star Wars series. Those plans were scrapped after Carano's November tweets.
Meanwhile, Lucasfilm employees/writers attack SW fans directly on social media and are A-OK.
The Mandalorian Actress Gina Carano Fired by Lucasfilm The actress' recent comments sparked backlash on social media.
Actress Gina Carano, known for playing former Rebel Alliance soldier Cara Dune on Disney's the Mandalorian, has been fired from the show, according to io9.
In a statement sent to io9, a Lucasfilm representative spoke on the matter:
“Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future. Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.”
Carano was the subject of much criticism recently when, in a now-deleted Instagram post, she compared being a modern-day Republican to being Jewish during the Holocaust. The hashtag #FireGinaCarano has trended on social media in recent months after other incendiary comments by the television and film star.
Sources tell the Hollywood Reporter that Lucasfilm planned on announcing in December that Carano would star in her own Star Wars series. Those plans were scrapped after Carano's November tweets.
Meanwhile, Lucasfilm employees/writers attack SW fans directly on social media and are A-OK.
Snowflakes gonna snowflake, I guess. People are literally looking for an excuse to be offended these days. And Disney wants to pander to those people. SMDH
H.B.M.C. wrote: Meanwhile, Lucasfilm employees/writers attack SW fans directly on social media and are A-OK.
Yup. I have yet to see any proof of her denigrating anyone based on identity and only her standing up for herself against hateful public tweets towards her. Unlike other Lucasfilm employees who do actually denigrate others based on race and sex as long as the targets are deemed acceptable based on those characteristics.
I don't agree with the comparison. It's much more like 1950's McCarthyism. Which is ironic (or more accurately hypocritical) that the same Hollywood/media industry that nominated Trumbo for dozens for awards in 2015 are now doing the exact same thing as the "baddies" in that film.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "She compared being a Republican to being a Jew in Nazi Germany!"
As Jimmy Woo on the recent episode of Wandavision said, that's an oversimplification.
could you clarify this? I'm not a real big sw fan and have never watched the babyoda show so never followed this. I'd have to say if there's any validity to it then it's certainly an outrageous claim.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Her Godwin-ing her point right at the start was a bad move.
There's a damn prequel meme here somewhere. Something like (Palpatine Voice) "It's ironic."
Matt Swain wrote: could you clarify this? I'm not a real big sw fan and have never watched the babyoda show so never followed this. I'd have to say if there's any validity to it then it's certainly an outrageous claim.
I'm not sure it can be clarified without deep diving hard into current American politics. The TLDR version; an actress posted some memes and made some comments that some people saw as suggesting certain things, so they got a hashtag going to get her fired, and she kind of dug herself in rather than extricate herself from the situation. Disney has blinked for the moment (assuming she doesn't get a James Gunn sort of deal, but I think her situation is different from Gunn's).
Wonder what they're gonna do with the character. Seemed like she was expected to be a recurring element of SW tv shows.
Genuinely unsure if that comment is directed at me, or just the topic at hand.
Topic at hand, I assure. Mostly, I think it's just amusing to make a Palpatine reference in regard to someone making a Godwin XD Godwins are almost always some kind of ironic, since you can invoke the Nazis for almost anything.
Wonder what they're gonna do with the character. Seemed like she was expected to be a recurring element of SW tv shows.
I would expect that she just won't appear any more. She's not a central enough character (none of the supporting cast are, really) that the story can't continue without her. If she does come up in a story, it will just be to mention that she's busy 'elsewhere'.
Or they'll recast her, but I hope not. I'd rather they introduce a new character than recast.
Wonder what they're gonna do with the character. Seemed like she was expected to be a recurring element of SW tv shows.
I would expect that she just won't appear any more. She's not a central enough character (none of the supporting cast are, really) that the story can't continue without her. If she does come up in a story, it will just be to mention that she's busy 'elsewhere'.
Or they'll recast her, but I hope not. I'd rather they introduce a new character than recast.
I suppose. The second season could probably just be here last appearance and it's no bigs narrative wise. I kind of got the feeling there was gonna be more for her though, like how whats his face came back in season 2 for a rather fun and interesting performance. The ex-Storm Trooper. An episode of him and Dune working together because circumstances demand it could have been entertaining.
I must agree with the recasting bit. I don't like recasting actors, even voice actors. You can tell something's different and it distracts. Everytime I watch Spartacus: Blood and Sand, I just stop because I know the second and third seasons just aren't the same without Andy Whitfield.
Star Trek Picard illustrated the lowest possible road they could take: recast the actor long enough to kill the character in as demeaning a way as they can think of in a fit of pique. Here's hoping they don't sink so low, Gina's behavior through all of this has been enough of an embarrassment already.
As far as the Mandalorian is concerned, she could be gone by season 3 with or without a character explaining her absence, never to be seen again. Or else brought back in novels, animation, or whatever, it's Lucasfilm's character. If they intended to use her for that New Republic series that's a minor rework and short delay, at most.
Edit: Rumor (and so far, only rumor) has it they were, in fact, going to announce a spinoff starring her during the December investor show, but scrapped that plan after her erratic tweets in November.
I've got no interest in supporting disney or lucasfilm, so this is just another nail in the coffin for me. And it's been like that for some time. They just saved me 6.99 a month though. A lot of my favorite franchises are now in the hands of companies that I simply do not respect. A lot of the stuff Gina was supposedly fired for was simply re tweets. The world is getting crazy folks, crazier by the day.
"Cara, good to see you again. Why don't you take your full-face helmet off?"
"This is the way"
"That's cool"
Too blunt.
Din walks into Greef's office and waits to be greeted. Greef, sitting in a chair looks up and turns his gaze to Care standing next to him. The camera slowly pans over, reveals her legs and waist, moves up from there and finally shows the back of a Mandalorian helmet. She turns around to face Din. Awkward silence remains as the scene cuts back and forth between Din and Cara, to come to rest on him after what seems to be an uncomfortably long time.
"This is the way," Cara says solemnly.
"This is the way," Din echoes.
The camera switches to Greef.
"What, you let her wear your cultural legacy now, Mando? When did that happen?"
Awkward silence resumes. Then unexpected action breaks loose and the issue is never raised again.
I think Ginas tweets fall pretty far short of the anti-semitism that shes being accused of, likewise I haven't seen anything blatantly racist or transphobic, etc., but theres plenty about what shes said and tweeted thats been tasteless, off-color, and trashy.
I'm not going to go so far as to say she deserved to be fired, but if I was her employer I would have fired her too after that last round of hot takes from her. You're only as good as the company you keep, and shes repeatedly demonstrated herself to not be particularly good company. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to be associated with her at that point.
Thargrim wrote: I've got no interest in supporting disney or lucasfilm, so this is just another nail in the coffin for me. And it's been like that for some time. They just saved me 6.99 a month though. A lot of my favorite franchises are now in the hands of companies that I simply do not respect. A lot of the stuff Gina was supposedly fired for was simply re tweets. The world is getting crazy folks, crazier by the day.
There's a reason why some big public figures, policymakers, and news broadcasters tend to put "Retweets do not equal endorsements from this account". Retweeting is considered to be a form of endorsement otherwise.
Eh I can see a time when many actors are going to have to have a Twitter/Social Media Manager in their staff who handle all of their tweets and such.
Much like many of the big names get coached in how to talk to the press, they also need coaching/shielding from things like social media. Learning to express themselves in ways that can't be easily misunderstood/abused or taken way out of context.
Just to totally avoid the chance that something they say or which is said in the heat of a moment or such can be then turned around and used on them to fire them; which might well result in them losing ability to get hired elsewhere in similar roles for a long while.
It's hard to discuss what exactly is going on with this situation without delving too deeply into politics.
Suffice to say this was not an isolated incident and it's not really an instance of her just "oops, my bad I hyperboled". I don't think a staffer would really have saved her from the situation at hand either, as she was active on Parler not just Twitter or Facebook or whatever else.
Cara: (sitting with her back to the camera) "The emperor did nothing wrong, Palaptine was freely elected, Jedi temple was a false flag, the Rebels destroyed Alderan, Operation Cinder was necessary"
People could just learn to deescalate situations and shut the feth up. Especially if your job is to be a public figure of sorts by getting famous and doing movies.
Just shut the feth up. Don't have a public twitter or facebook or anything. Have a professional one you use to promote your craft. Then shut. the. feth. up. I don't post publicly about anything that is attached to my actual name because my job might find it. And I am not followed by thousands and reported on by the news.
Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence.
I expect Cara Dune will show up in animated stuff with a new voice actor and books. Shes done for live action.
Overread wrote: Eh I can see a time when many actors are going to have to have a Twitter/Social Media Manager in their staff who handle all of their tweets and such.
Nah. It's entirely dependent on your genetic lottery results and whether you're in ideological lockstep with the industry. If you meet both criteria, you can post pretty much whatever hateful things you want and neither the platform nor the industry will mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Cara: (sitting with her back to the camera) "The emperor did nothing wrong, Palaptine was freely elected, Jedi temple was a false flag, the Rebels destroyed Alderan, Operation Cinder was necessary"
(Migs shoots her)
Migs: "What?"
Everyone: "Nothing"
I think it might be more correct if the Mando said that and Cara objected only to be subsequently sniped by an Imp.
Yes, except for one thing. It might be the greatest dumba** detector of all time. If someone can't keep their gak together there, then that's someone I don't want anywhere near customers/clients/fans/etc. It absolutely goes to your ability to behave in public and represent your employer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: People could just learn to deescalate situations and shut the feth up. Especially if your job is to be a public figure of sorts by getting famous and doing movies.
Just shut the feth up. Don't have a public twitter or facebook or anything. Have a professional one you use to promote your craft. Then shut. the. feth. up. I don't post publicly about anything that is attached to my actual name because my job might find it. And I am not followed by thousands and reported on by the news.
Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence.
There are no thoughtcrimes in this country. But she's an IDIOT to be in her position and comport herself in that manner. She should go find a job completely out of the public eye if she doesn't want that to matter. You don't get to have it both ways.
There are no thoughtcrimes in this country. But she's an IDIOT to be in her position and comport herself in that manner. She should go find a job completely out of the public eye if she doesn't want that to matter. You don't get to have it both ways.
How do you explain Pedro Pascal getting no employment pushback then on his social media posts? It seems you can have it both ways.
I don't know what you're referring to. But for all we know he's on double secret probation like Carano obviously was. So perhaps he's smart enough to get the message and she wasn't.
gorgon wrote: I don't know what you're referring to. But for all we know he's on double secret probation like Carano obviously was. So perhaps he's smart enough to get the message and she wasn't.
Don't defend stupid.
Regardless of whether what was posted was actually "stupid", the point is that some people are put on that probation and others aren't depending on in part the narrative.
gorgon wrote: That’s your narrative of victimization and grievance. You have no idea what’s been said to anyone.
There is definitely a narrative of victimization and grievance but it's not mine. You're free to simply web search for the knowledge to enlighten yourself. Hint... search around and before Nov 3, 2020.
I'm pretty sure I know the post you're referring to, and it's important to point out that at the same time Pedro posted that, Gina was also her own stuff.
Neither of them were fired at that time.
The difference (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here because that post was from before January 6th.) is that Pedro backed off. He deleted the post in question, acknowledged it when confronted by it, but did not double down, consistently or otherwise, over the past three months.
If it seems at all unfair to you that a company can impose this kind of thing on its employees, I'm sorry, but that debate happened ten years ago. Companies have social media policies, if you identify yourself as an employee of that company you speak for that company whether you want to or not. If anything giving them three months to potentially walk it back reflects well on Lucasfilm compared to what Marvel did to James Gunn - I like to think it represents a difference in their culture or the result of lessons learned but it sadly could just be because they're more reluctant to can actors.
Captain Joystick wrote: I'm pretty sure I know the post you're referring to, and it's important to point out that at the same time Pedro posted that, Gina was also her own stuff.
Neither of them were fired at that time.
The difference (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here because that post was from before January 6th.) is that Pedro backed off. He deleted the post in question, acknowledged it when confronted by it, but did not double down, consistently or otherwise, over the past three months.
If it seems at all unfair to you that a company can impose this kind of thing on its employees, I'm sorry, but that debate happened ten years ago. Companies have social media policies, if you identify yourself as an employee of that company you speak for that company whether you want to or not. If anything giving them three months to potentially walk it back reflects well on Lucasfilm compared to what Marvel did to James Gunn - I like to think it represents a difference in their culture or the result of lessons learned but it sadly could just be because they're more reluctant to can actors.
I think we know what difference you’re getting at, but we all also know the difference between supporting a political party and supporting an extremist group with blood on its hands.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think we know what difference you’re getting at, but we all also know the difference between supporting a political party and supporting an extremist group with blood on its hands.
Sorry, Bob, but I know you're smarter than that. Also Pm'ed.
Is this really a productive course for the thread? Vaguely alluding to this and that and then PMing around to different people?
This issue goes beyond the scope of what is allowed on DakkaDakka. There's a new forum set up by RiTides that could handle it without the conversation playing out like a game of secret squirrel telephone.
LordofHats wrote: Is this really a productive course for the thread? Vaguely alluding to this and that and then PMing around to different people?
This issue goes beyond the scope of what is allowed on DakkaDakka. There's a new forum set up by RiTides that could handle it without the conversation playing out like a game of secret squirrel telephone.
I'm actually done publicly but also didn't know about a new subforum so will check it out. As for secret squirrel telephone, I've never heard of that phrase but...
I went and made a thread for this on RiTide's forum. I tried to link to some of the social media that was relevant but I'm not invested enough to hunt it all down. I'd invite specific discussion about the issue to go there so it doesn't clutter things up here where we can't talk about it.
So some thing i have heard.
Several cast member faught to keep her on. They attempted to show her what was wrong with what she was doing, and she should stop it. They tried to teach her.
She made several tweets disparaging trans people(Started with a joke on her pronouns, devolved into that)
Pedro Pascal has a transperson as a sibling. He tried to teach her about trans rights and things to that ilk.
She had so many co-stars and producers go to bat for her.
But she kept doing it. this wasn't just one bad tweet, but a series of them after given multiple chances to change if not just stop.
Soo yeah, she did this to herself.
Right. She was undoubtedly warned but she didn't stop. Had it been 'cancel culture', she would have been out of there the first time. Pascal was probably warned also about politics...but he's been keeping his trap shut where she didn't.
This is the kind of firing where the executive/manager doesn't even slightly bad about it.
I'm sure this will set her up to be a guest 'victim' on certain cable networks however. So she's got that going for her.
Come to think of it they really don't need to either write her out or recast.
"Damnit we're pinned down, where the hell is Cara?"
(X-wing flies over pew-pew-pew)
"Ah there she is!"
----------------
"This is an important briefing, we need everyone."
"What about Cara, where is she?"
"Over there" (waves off screen) "Hi Cara!"
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Come to think of it they really don't need to either write her out or recast.
"Damnit we're pinned down, where the hell is Cara?"
(X-wing flies over pew-pew-pew)
"Ah there she is!"
----------------
"This is an important briefing, we need everyone."
"What about Cara, where is she?"
"Over there" (waves off screen) "Hi Cara!"
Easy as cake.
Given she's just a reoccurring side character, she can just... not.... reoccur.
Vaktathi wrote: Let's avoid some of the politics and keep it to just the show please to avoid the thread going downhill, thanks!
Hey all, just a friendly reminder to keep it focused on the show and lets avoid the politics, this thread has gotten more reports in the last day than we've received the rest of the week combined I think. I know it's not easy and I appreciate people largely attempting to post within the rules. Thanks!
If only we could bring the Dakkanauts together with a chill lets-watch of their entire Star Wars saga. Take some midichlorians and sing along to the Last Laser Master or something.
Maz showing up would be a neat tie in to the sequel trilogy, but then again... it would be a tie in to the sequel trilogy. Granted, Maz isn't really a par tof those movies I dislike. But she is from those movies.
It’s kinda hard to imagine her not turning up in some capacity, given her obvious standing in the underworld.
Say what you like about TFA, Maz’s castle needs to be explored further for me.
Maz's castle DID have a mando flag/pennant/banner hanging - one of many. The mythosaur skull one. So she at least has some ties to some mando somewhere.
We know Bo Katan is trying to get hold of ships for the effort. With the fall of the Empire, it rather begs the question who she is planning to take on.
So far, we know she’s nicked a Gozanti (S2, E3) and Gideon’s not-quite Arquitens class light cruiser. We’ve also seen her Kom’rk in s2 E8, in the background when Mando goes to speak with her.
End of the most recent season of The Expanse. An actor was fired from the show after they finished shooting the season, but to explain his absence next season, they took a stillframe from the last episode, CGI'd some blood coming out of his nose, said he had a stroke*, and then re-shot a couple of scenes/ADR'd some lines to show the rest of the characters reacting to the death.
*Strokes being a common side-effect of massive high-G burns in space, which they had just done. So it wasn't just a stroke out of no where (at least not completely).
End of the most recent season of The Expanse. An actor was fired from the show after they finished shooting the season, but to explain his absence next season, they took a stillframe from the last episode, CGI'd some blood coming out of his nose, said he had a stroke*, and then re-shot a couple of scenes/ADR'd some lines to show the rest of the characters reacting to the death.
End of the most recent season of The Expanse. An actor was fired from the show after they finished shooting the season, but to explain his absence next season, they took a stillframe from the last episode, CGI'd some blood coming out of his nose, said he had a stroke*, and then re-shot a couple of scenes/ADR'd some lines to show the rest of the characters reacting to the death.
Damn. That's cold XD
Why was actor X fired?
Accusations from multiple fans and production staff of unseemly behavior over several years (apparently including with a 17 year old), often turning aggressive after being told "no", with a fair number of documented text messages supporting the accusations.
If Grogu makes an appearance later in the show again, and Luke is present or at least in the background, I wonder if they'll introduce Mara Jade (which wouldn't be quite a retcon but more expand on Lukes activities with the Jedi temples) and then there is potential for Kyle Katarn to appear also.
Semi related... now that the Obiwan series is filming... what hell can they actually do in it?
OK there is...
* The one where meets young Luke and tells him a story that becomes a flash back
* The one where someone comes looking for Young Luke and Obi takes care of them
* The one where he helps the Jawas or whoever.
* The one where he has to leave Tattoine for whatever reason then hurry back.
Certainly the Lars knew he was out there, and Luke had heard of him.
Wise Old Trouble Shooting Hermit is definitely one approach. Like Edward Woodward, but in spaaaaaaace.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Updated the title, as with five series in the offing (is it 6?) we might as well use this for new, chat and speculation.
I think they could get a lot of play out of Obi-Wan and Vader and still play into Episode 4.
Tarkin assumed Obi-Wan was long dead, but there's no real reason for him to believe he was.
Similarly, Obi-Wan knew Vader was Anakin, where, for example, Ahsoka did not.
You quite possibly could have a whole season (if not show) arc of Ben leading Vader on a wild goose chase throughout the galaxy, before faking his death and returning to Tatooine.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: If Grogu makes an appearance later in the show again, and Luke is present or at least in the background, I wonder if they'll introduce Mara Jade (which wouldn't be quite a retcon but more expand on Lukes activities with the Jedi temples) and then there is potential for Kyle Katarn to appear also.
Mara helps Luke rebuild the Jedi only to be killed by Han's son? Seems unlikely....
Compel wrote: I think they could get a lot of play out of Obi-Wan and Vader and still play into Episode 4.
Tarkin assumed Obi-Wan was long dead, but there's no real reason for him to believe he was.
Similarly, Obi-Wan knew Vader was Anakin, where, for example, Ahsoka did not.
You quite possibly could have a whole season (if not show) arc of Ben leading Vader on a wild goose chase throughout the galaxy, before faking his death and returning to Tatooine.
That’s a good point.
We don’t know Kenobi stayed on Tattooine. We know he handed baby Luke over 19BBY, and was present planetside when Maul traced him there. I’m not aware of any current canon definitively placing him there in between 19BBY and 2BBY.
That’s a 17 year, five or take, era of ‘dunno’. Plenty to play with there.
Hell, they could be going for another “just before Episode IV” thing.
Or going really, really wild, and it’s about him Ghost Trolling Vader post-Deathstar. That could be pretty cool!
Given that he was something of an urban legend to the locals, we can probably assume Obi Wan was on Tatooine a lot in those 20 years. But indeed, there's nothing that says he hung out in the desert spooking the locals that entire time. He could have come and gone frequently over time.
Certainly the Lars knew he was out there, and Luke had heard of him.
Wise Old Trouble Shooting Hermit is definitely one approach. Like Edward Woodward, but in spaaaaaaace.
Kung Fu and Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, basically. Monk goes out into the world and punches (stabs) people in the face.
They could even have him hook up with the politician he was crushing on in the Clone Wars series and have a kid, and do the whole rigmarole.
Its creatively bankrupt enough to be exactly what I expect.
How canon do you consider the current comics? If you go with those, Vader had no idea his kids survived at all. Never even bothered to look. Obi Wan seems to have remained on Tatoo the vast majority of the time.
Backstory from before she died, then. Or the sister/assistant/cousin he turned to in his grief. Whatever.
He needs some sort of connection while mooching around the galaxy to help the audience care about the character beyond 'memberberries. [Like, you know, a baby yoda or something]
Technically it doesn't need to be a lover and/or kid, but a new apprentice would be even weirder and immersion breaking, a droid doesn't work ('I don't remember ever owning a droid'), and 'buddies' pulls up of the spectre of comic nonsense like the big 4 armed alien in the 50s diner. So tropey nonsense with unexpected kid and past lover is the most Hollywood solution.
I'd see The Jedi With No Name, Clint Eastwood style, to be more likely. Vader may not know his kids survived, but he sure as hell knows that Obi Wan did, so it's not really going to be safe for him to permanently team up with anyone.
And he's definitely been off Tatooine a few times - knows his way around Mos Eisley, knows the bar where the best pilots hang out. Knows a TIE fighter when he sees it.
Or going really, really wild, and it’s about him Ghost Trolling Vader post-Deathstar. That could be pretty cool!
I will NEVER forgive Ep 9 for denying me this. I think 80% of my love for Ep 8 was leaving the theater dreaming of Mark Hamill taunting Kylo on his throne.
Certainly the Lars knew he was out there, and Luke had heard of him.
Wise Old Trouble Shooting Hermit is definitely one approach. Like Edward Woodward, but in spaaaaaaace.
This is more or less what I was expecting. Also the route they went with the 'Kenobi' EU book, which was a pretty good yarn.
Graphite wrote: Vader may not know his kids survived, but he sure as hell knows that Obi Wan did, so it's not really going to be safe for him to permanently team up with anyone.
This is a good point. While I'm really hoping the rumours of another fight with Vader are a smokescreen for whatever is actually going on (I'd much prefer that he doesn't actually bump into Vader again until Ep4) it's possible that he gets wind of Vader / Inquisitors hunting him and leaves Tattoine for a bit to keep them away from Luke... make it look like he's actually set up camp somewhere else entirely.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Semi related... now that the Obiwan series is filming... what hell can they actually do in it?
OK there is...
* The one where meets young Luke and tells him a story that becomes a flash back
* The one where someone comes looking for Young Luke and Obi takes care of them
* The one where he helps the Jawas or whoever.
* The one where he has to leave Tattoine for whatever reason then hurry back.
Are there any more possible plots?
This problem is exactly why we have arc-driven TV storytelling. Why bother with plot when you have story?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Semi related... now that the Obiwan series is filming... what hell can they actually do in it?
OK there is...
* The one where meets young Luke and tells him a story that becomes a flash back
* The one where someone comes looking for Young Luke and Obi takes care of them
* The one where he helps the Jawas or whoever.
* The one where he has to leave Tattoine for whatever reason then hurry back.
Are there any more possible plots?
This problem is exactly why we have arc-driven TV storytelling. Why bother with plot when you have story?
Not really my point, Obiwan is supposed to be on Tatooine, supposed to be watching over Luke and I, dunno, mediating. So how do you build a show around it? We know where he is and where he has to be for Star Wars to happen. There's room in there for a quick hop somewhere but that's about it. It's the problem with prequels and ever finely sliced continuity.
Unlike say the Mandalorian who can go anywhere and do anything he wants now, or Boba Fett who has a clearly defined mission now, and we don't know how it ends.
H.B.M.C. wrote: From what I recall in that episode, I think we saw Luke in silhouette for about half a nano-second, and he looked way smaller than a 16-year old.
Guess he grew up real fast in those two years.
Yeah. We see someone that’s almost certainly meant to be Luke running home in silhouette. Looked more like a kid than a teen.
Really? Because you sure framed it that way: “the one where, the one where, the one where” — as if we need a different scenario to justify each episode, like how TV worked over 20 years ago. Arc-driven storytelling is perfect for an Obi-Wan show because there is only one scenario, a lonely life of looking after Luke from afar on Tatooine, that gets explored over the course of several episodes. Rather than each episode needing to be self-contained plot-wise, the story (often driven by character development) is what we follow. So the question is not “what will Obi-Wan do and where will he go from episode to episode?” but rather “what kind of person is he at the beginning of the show and how will he change over the course of it?”
H.B.M.C. wrote: From what I recall in that episode, I think we saw Luke in silhouette for about half a nano-second, and he looked way smaller than a 16-year old.
Guess he grew up real fast in those two years.
Yeah. We see someone that’s almost certainly meant to be Luke running home in silhouette. Looked more like a kid than a teen.
Part of the issue I think is how the Rebels timeline is kind of wonky. Rebels was initially framed as happening in the middle of the period between RotS and ANH, but it never pinned down an exact year. Later on, it became 5 BBY at the start of the series, but as the series moved forward it seems to fudge its relative placement in time a lot. The series never feels like it a story taking place over the course of 5 years and exactly how time passed from episode to episode or season to season isn't clear. If we take the Luke episode as happening in 4-5 BBY, then Luke would be 10-11 and the scene makes sense.
But that episode is somewhat late in the series, so how is the timeline working here? I think this is part of the issue I and other had with the ending where it feels like Lothal rebelled and then was just ignored with a hand wave from the writers for doing so. If the Galactic Civil War kicked in earnest the next day, I makes sense I guess. But the series sure spends a lot of time finagling what point in time things are supposed to be happening so it can feel a bit like playing fast and loose with chronology.
So he's 38 in RotS... Yeah, that's a tough break to look like that at 56, 66 maybe, but yeah... Ouch...
I also actually think it is too young in Jedi terms to give his life away as he did, it seemed to work because you thought he was mid 70's/80's, but 56 is young to do that, he wouldn't be so slow and cumbersome in his fight with vader either...
They should have just case him as mid 40's in Phantom Menace and it all would sync up.
Finally pushed the D+ button again, as there's a fair amount of stuff I want to catch up on.
Decided to watch Rise of Skywalker on a lazy afternoon. I'm at the climax of the film and there's still 40 freaking minutes left. Really can't figure out how this rushes through plot elements (well, macguffin fetching) but plods through the actual execution. Well, except the character interaction, which it largely skips.
Now its just a matter of deciding if the weekend's binge is Mando or Wanda.
Voss wrote: Finally pushed the D+ button again, as there's a fair amount of stuff I want to catch up on.
Decided to watch Rise of Skywalker on a lazy afternoon. I'm at the climax of the film and there's still 40 freaking minutes left. Really can't figure out how this rushes through plot elements (well, macguffin fetching) but plods through the actual execution. Well, except the character interaction, which it largely skips.
Now its just a matter of deciding if the weekend's binge is Mando or Wanda.
Definitely Wanda. Mando is absolute garbage like everything else Disney has done with star wars. I suspect I'll catch a lot of flak for that
A High Republic character announced today is a slab of rock and is named Geode. Lol. The flamboyant disco pilot looking like he's straight out of the 70's has a pet rock.
Voss wrote: Now its just a matter of deciding if the weekend's binge is Mando or Wanda.
Also, as a recent subscriber to D+, I didn’t realize they still wanted you to pay more for the new movies. $30 to watch Raya? Yeah, no. Sailed back to the bay for that one.
Yeah, it's something they're experimenting with, first with Mulan and now this Raya.
It didn't go so well with Mulan, I'm guessing for a couple of unclear reasons, it's apparently not a great movie, and they received quite a lot of flak for the 'hey, special thanks to those folks committing genocide' in the credits.
So it ended up going onto their usual offerings after a surprisingly short amount of time.
Conversely, I think Raya has been consistently reviewed well and may end up being a better test for Disney.
AduroT wrote: ... I didn’t realize they still wanted you to pay more for the new movies.
That's not a normal thing. They've only done that twice with movies that have never been in the cinema. It's their "cut our losses" approach thanks to COVID.
This isn't Amazone Prime, where you pay per month yet they still want you to pay for renting/purchasing movies.
Compel wrote: Yeah, it's something they're experimenting with, first with Mulan and now this Raya.
It didn't go so well with Mulan, I'm guessing for a couple of unclear reasons, it's apparently not a great movie, and they received quite a lot of flak for the 'hey, special thanks to those folks committing genocide' in the credits.
So it ended up going onto their usual offerings after a surprisingly short amount of time.
Conversely, I think Raya has been consistently reviewed well and may end up being a better test for Disney.
Mulan wasn’t Bad, but it was a very different movie from the animated version. More of a wire fu action flick, with entirely different morals.
AduroT wrote: Mulan wasn’t Bad, but it was a very different movie from the animated version. More of a wire fu action flick, with entirely different morals.
Yeah, going from "Anyone can do anything if they put their minds to it and support one another!" to "You are a woman, therefore superpowers!" was quite a leap.
I quite enjoyed it.
It did have a big problem though of not making any of the male characters look distinct enough to tell them apart.
And no, im not saying all asians look alike, many movies can have this problem when you all cast according to the hollywood type,
AduroT wrote: Mulan wasn’t Bad, but it was a very different movie from the animated version. More of a wire fu action flick, with entirely different morals.
Yeah, going from "Anyone can do anything if they put their minds to it and support one another!" to "You are a woman, therefore superpowers!" was quite a leap.
But only if you're loyal to China will your superpowers prevent you from being controlled by a man.
How was the witch not the one in charge, again..?
Mulan's main flaw (chief among its many flaws) is the same as the other live action adaptions: it assumes the audience is invested in whats going on based on their exposure to the source material without putting the effort to earn it themselves. It calls back to characters' backgrounds and motivations through musical cues that reference expository musical numbers that don't exist in this version of the movie. It tries to cash in on emotional investment that it doesn't invest in - a mistake the movies they're based on don't make, and a mistake the kinds of movies they're trying to mimic don't make.
For all of its other problems, that's the one that ruins it as a movie.
So it ended up going onto their usual offerings after a surprisingly short amount of time.
It could be normal. These are the first two tries at the 'premiere' format, so several weeks/a couple months could be their target. I'd think they'd run out of people who want to throw out an extra $30 pretty quick.
What’s the betting we’ll see some involvement with Jabba?
I mean, he’s on Tattooine, and we know for a fact that the Throne Room/Audience Chamber set exists.
Well, probably. But it feels... dull. Revisiting old people and places again, as well as revisiting old places that are being revisited in the Boba and Sidekick show.
Mandalorian also did a lot with Jawas and Tuskens, so, um... I guess?
I'd really rather he wandered off for some self-contained sidequest somewhere else.
I'd love to see something set in a major city in SW. We almost never get to see that, just variations on 'peasants' scratching out boring lives on the fringe, unless of course we're places without people at all.
I'd really rather he wandered off for some self-contained sidequest somewhere else.
I'd love to see something set in a major city in SW. We almost never get to see that, just variations on 'peasants' scratching out boring lives on the fringe, unless of course we're places without people at all.
It could be like the old The Incredible Hulk tv show. Ben turns up somewhere, tries to keep a low profile and not use his powers, then has to use his powers to solve the problem, then has to move on. The the galaxy's worst inquisitor turns up in the final scene asking if anyone has seen a jedi....
What’s the betting we’ll see some involvement with Jabba?
I mean, he’s on Tattooine, and we know for a fact that the Throne Room/Audience Chamber set exists.
Well, probably. But it feels... dull. Revisiting old people and places again, as well as revisiting old places that are being revisited in the Boba and Sidekick show.
Mandalorian also did a lot with Jawas and Tuskens, so, um... I guess?
I'd really rather he wandered off for some self-contained sidequest somewhere else.
I'd love to see something set in a major city in SW. We almost never get to see that, just variations on 'peasants' scratching out boring lives on the fringe, unless of course we're places without people at all.
So much this. I know they are trying to keep riffing off Westerns and Samurai movies as that is Star Wars bread and butter, but they could easily steal some new genres and pack them in there.
Some gritty space cop action in a hive city? No!
How about planet hopping spies with lots of gadgets? No!
What about a Lovecraft inspired series based on the horrors of the Dark Side? No!
I'd really rather he wandered off for some self-contained sidequest somewhere else.
I'd love to see something set in a major city in SW. We almost never get to see that, just variations on 'peasants' scratching out boring lives on the fringe, unless of course we're places without people at all.
It could be like the old The Incredible Hulk tv show. Ben turns up somewhere, tries to keep a low profile and not use his powers, then has to use his powers to solve the problem, then has to move on. The the galaxy's worst inquisitor turns up in the final scene asking if anyone has seen a jedi....
So much better if It followed the path forged by The Littlest Hobo... maybe tomorrow...
It would be nice to see Star Wars try a political thriller, but without all the other stuff getting in the way.
Call it, The West Ring and make it about the staff members of a senator during the High Republic and the various odd situations and mundane things they do in the day-to-day running of the galaxy.
"It's walk in day. Alright, that means we'll be sitting down with anyone who wants to talk about the issues that matter to them. Take good notes, be polite, and report back so we can brief the senator."
"Don't make me sit with those crazy Baldovans again."
"You have to sit with the Baldovans and just grit your teeth."
"They want to destroy all droids. It doesn't even make sense! They say droids are slaves and slavery is wrong, but we should destroy all droids? They're nuts!"
"Grit your teeth and listen to the rant KlepKelep."
BobtheInquisitor wrote: With all of the walking and talking it would feel like AotC all over again.
Honestly, I think one of the things that really held the prequels back is that they couldn't decide what they were; a space opera or a serious political drama in space. They're not the same thing, and those two modes of story telling clashed horribly in Episodes II and III imo. The story got in its own way.
After they absolutely stuck the landing with the final Alphabet Squadron book, I'm kind of dreading going into any of these new shows - I don't think I'll be able to forgive them for not being an Alphabet adaption instead!
To me the Kenobi series seems like the riskiest venture, there's only so much he can do on Tatooine without losing his anonymous hermit image, and only so much he can do off of Tatooine without making people question Luke's safety. They could do a story that has him go back and fight Vader one more time to satisfy obsessively nitpicky fans (Vader says 'when I left you' when clearly Obi-Wan left him next to that lava pool) else maybe something where Luke is almost compromised to maybe help explain the animosity Owen feels towards him, but beyond fanservice is there really much to build more than one season around?
I'd really rather he wandered off for some self-contained sidequest somewhere else.
I'd love to see something set in a major city in SW. We almost never get to see that, just variations on 'peasants' scratching out boring lives on the fringe, unless of course we're places without people at all.
It could be like the old The Incredible Hulk tv show. Ben turns up somewhere, tries to keep a low profile and not use his powers, then has to use his powers to solve the problem, then has to move on. The the galaxy's worst inquisitor turns up in the final scene asking if anyone has seen a jedi....
Jettster Dexter is the force’s gift to YouTube editors. Add a laugh track and he’s hilarious. Add horror music and he’s terrifying. Add some sultry sax and...well, you just watch yourself.
Seemed pretty clear to me that Gideon also made that call, any bounty hunter that made the kill would have to bring the body back as proof so they'd still get their tissue samples. But between it coming out that Karga's 'best guy' was a Mandalorian (that they could get more value out of barter with over the beskar they had) and Dr. Pershing's no doubt incessant whining about it they probably made the request for a live retrieval out of some outside chance he'd be able to pull it off.
Intervention from a mysterious galactic Force optional.
That’s a horrible plan though. Were gonna hire two exceptional bounty hunters. Send them both after the same target. One is told explicitly to kill them. The other is told do their best to bring them in alive. Also we’re not gonna tell them about the other one.
