H.B.M.C. wrote:
Q4 next year?

Yes.I hope it happens, but its only a joke.

zamerion wrote:
So Q4, new box with a new "edition" in ash wastes, with nomads vs scavvy or redemptionists.

My bet

Well, the “House of” series has, so far, mentioned Ash Wastes fairly heavily, clarifying that the three Houses covered so far have varying levels of presence. So I could see that happening.

Add in vehicle rules for stuff up to say, Achilles Ridge Runner size? That also leans into the Orlock and Van Saar prospects. Because whilst domes aren’t quite as claustrophobic as some might think, those models would have a better time out in the wastes.

But, I can see it being predominantly a specific, alternative campaign setting, rather than one readily mixed with Sector Mech and Zone Mortalis games?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, the “House of” series has, so far, mentioned Ash Wastes fairly heavily, clarifying that the three Houses covered so far have varying levels of presence. So I could see that happening.

Add in vehicle rules for stuff up to say, Achilles Ridge Runner size? That also leans into the Orlock and Van Saar prospects. Because whilst domes aren’t quite as claustrophobic as some might think, those models would have a better time out in the wastes.

But, I can see it being predominantly a specific, alternative campaign setting, rather than one readily mixed with Sector Mech and Zone Mortalis games?

Interesting and here's a random train of thought to think about. There' a rumour bouncing round on B&C saying that there maybe DKoK plastics on the way. Someone helpfully popped up and said it's more likely that they'll do Armageddon Steel Legion. So, if those rumours are true (unlikely), GW could be planning a series of desert terrain. And, let's be honest, modern GW don't produce something unless they can sell you a ton of extras. So, no desert expanse unless they have terrain to go with. If they do have a desert theme or a "Return to Armageddon" launch, what a perfect time to launch Ash Waste Nomads...

That’s certainly food for thought. If the rumour is to be believed. With genuine respect to the various accurate rumour mongers, they’re sadly outnumbered by BS Merchants.

On Ratskins - they're not mentioned at all in the House of Iron. Do they appear in any of the House books? What's the last time they were actually mentioned?

Given the Wyld Runners seem to fulfil the low-tech hunting monsters niche, it feels like they're being airbrushed out of the picture.

 Graphite wrote:
On Ratskins - they're not mentioned at all in the House of Iron. Do they appear in any of the House books? What's the last time they were actually mentioned?

Given the Wyld Runners seem to fulfil the low-tech hunting monsters niche, it feels like they're being airbrushed out of the picture.

We'll see them return but as something unrecognisable. Something like hive bottom wild men or some such

Basically all the fluff in the Orlock book takes place outside the hive spire. The only thing I remember staying inside is them mining old structures inside, causing tremors and hive quakes.

I wouldn't be surprised if they make an ash waste/the spoil setting next (maybe with rules for bikes and transport a la Gorkamorka), but on the other hand, the image shows the top of the spire, so they might as well go in the opposite direction.

Not sure we can put much stock in the holding image they used.

It’s existing artwork after all. I may well be wrong, and it wouldn’t be the first nor the last time!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
On Ratskins - they're not mentioned at all in the House of Iron. Do they appear in any of the House books? What's the last time they were actually mentioned?

Given the Wyld Runners seem to fulfil the low-tech hunting monsters niche, it feels like they're being airbrushed out of the picture.

We'll see them return but as something unrecognisable. Something like hive bottom wild men or some such

Ratskins can still be Ratskins. And Redemption can still be Redemption. It’s the sculpts that were arguably problematic*, not their background.

*Redemptionists, in their standard red colouring aren’t problematic. But a Sad Little Edgelord painting them white and adding dubious iconography (twisting them into something they canonically are not) is an issue. Because their inspiration was the Spanish Inquisition, not, well, you know.

Danny76 wrote:
Do their quarters run Jan to Dec, or is it more like seasons?

That would be one heck of a long quarter.

In terms of new gangs in Necro17, what's the full list look like? Off the top of my head, I remember seeing:
- Chaos Cult (in WD)
- Genestealer Cult (in WD)
- Palatine Enforcers
- Slave Ogryns (latest Goliath book?)
- Corpse Grinders (cult #3? Not sure where printed)

There's an argument that Chaos/GSC/Enforcers have appeared before, but I can't recall where the former two would've been printed.

Any others that I've missed from released material thus far?

Ratskins would be better suited leaning far more into the archeotech worship than the natives look, lots of strange tech hanging from their clothing like talismans, the rat pelts can be kept but applied in a way similar to the reptile skins worn by the Scions of the Flame. Give them weapons that look similar to AdMech guns and you're good to go.

As for Redemptionists, I'd expect them to be outright folded in Cawdor as the new Champions and Prospects, with options for eviscerators and such locked to them.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Ratskins can still be Ratskins. And Redemption can still be Redemption. It’s the sculpts that were arguably problematic*, not their background.

The same but with different sculpts isn't the same. And they weren't problematic. Problematic wan't even a concept back then, what with us being adults (even though we were kids). Lastly, if you're giving the concept of "problematic" even the slightest shred of credibility, then you have to condemn Ratskins as appropriation and or blackface. You can't make any attempt at nuance, that's not how this all works.

JWBS wrote:
The same but with different sculpts isn't the same. And they weren't problematic. Problematic wan't even a concept back then, what with us being adults (even though we were kids). Lastly, if you're giving the concept of "problematic" even the slightest shred of credibility, then you have to condemn Ratskins as appropriation and or blackface. You can't make any attempt at nuance, that's not how this all works.

I don't think GW are doing a bad job of using cultural inspirations for units these days, Warcry warbands and AoS factions in general all have fairly clear identities that come from real world cultures, even with modifications to help them fit a fantastical theme.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
True, but that's a bit like AoS. Necromunda started as 1 concept; changed and then changed again. Partly, from what I can tell, in response to really high sales volume. Basically GW went from "specialist side game" to "main game" attitude quite quickly; but it has resulted in a bit of a mess.

I think they are on a home run now though with a more long term plan setup for it simply because of the nature of the releases we are now getting. I'd at least expect to no see another "army book" for any faction until a new edition of the core rules. Though of course GW might well throw a lot of expansion rule packs in

Do you ever stop making excuses for them? And I'm not just talking about this thread either.

Necromunda is a mess, and has performed like a game stuck in Early Access on Steam since it first came out. Lurching from one new patch to another, with them treading the same ground over and over again without ever moving forward that much (we got Corpse Grinders and Ogryn Slave gangs, and everything else 3-4 times over). We're still missing a bucketload of miniatures for the special characters, and we've yet to hear a whiff of info on anything beyond the 6 core gangs.

If this because, as you say, a change of ideas due to large sales, then they still haven't managed to get it together.

Sure I'm critical of GW's problems as well, it just doesn't dominate my posting. Plus I tend to look for reasoning as to why things are as they are. Necromunda changing from 1 book of rules through to a codex-style system per gang strongly suggests higher than estimated sales promoted that change. Why else (besides key staff favouring the game) would GW choose to invest larger amounts of money in a larger development program. It doesn't mean that GW's rules writers have suddenly transformed from what they've been for 30years; it doesn't mean they've got it perfect and it has indeed made a mess of the launch through to current format period - even ignoring the mess that Corona has made of the last year. Heck I was crying out about missing phyrr cats for ages - and whilst I do like the new designed sculpts they are very clearly not resin (or if they are don't take advantage of resin fine detail) and are a very different design to their original artwork and concept design.

Again I am critical, it just doesn't dominate my posting. I'd rather look for a logical reasoning and then look toward a more positive outcome/reason/target than doom and gloom.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
True, but that's a bit like AoS. Necromunda started as 1 concept; changed and then changed again. Partly, from what I can tell, in response to really high sales volume. Basically GW went from "specialist side game" to "main game" attitude quite quickly; but it has resulted in a bit of a mess.

I think they are on a home run now though with a more long term plan setup for it simply because of the nature of the releases we are now getting. I'd at least expect to no see another "army book" for any faction until a new edition of the core rules. Though of course GW might well throw a lot of expansion rule packs in

Do you ever stop making excuses for them? And I'm not just talking about this thread either.

Necromunda is a mess, and has performed like a game stuck in Early Access on Steam since it first came out. Lurching from one new patch to another, with them treading the same ground over and over again without ever moving forward that much (we got Corpse Grinders and Ogryn Slave gangs, and everything else 3-4 times over). We're still missing a bucketload of miniatures for the special characters, and we've yet to hear a whiff of info on anything beyond the 6 core gangs.

If this because, as you say, a change of ideas due to large sales, then they still haven't managed to get it together.

I'd rather hear someone's postmortem (midmortem?) on the development of the game than get absolute psycho hours from you.

Like, the ongoing fixation on special characters models is hilarious. You're stuck on it because it's an irrefutable gap in the game. You can bring it up and nobody can tell you you're incorrect. But no one *cares*. If I asked you what you wanted from the game two years ago would you have said, "Well, I'd really like a ton of special characters, and for them all to have models!"

Can you tell us how many of the Forgeworld Necromunda models you currently own, please? Will you be buying all future releases? When did you last play a game of Necromunda; and when was the last game you played in which you fielded a special character?

It's equally ludicrous to pretend that new gangs was something the community was desperate for (or that you ever cared about, until contingency made that issue another concrete example of something started and left unfinished, via teasers that haven't resolved into products yet).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
True, but that's a bit like AoS. Necromunda started as 1 concept; changed and then changed again. Partly, from what I can tell, in response to really high sales volume. Basically GW went from "specialist side game" to "main game" attitude quite quickly; but it has resulted in a bit of a mess.

I think they are on a home run now though with a more long term plan setup for it simply because of the nature of the releases we are now getting. I'd at least expect to no see another "army book" for any faction until a new edition of the core rules. Though of course GW might well throw a lot of expansion rule packs in

We're still missing a bucketload of miniatures for the special characters, and we've yet to hear a whiff of info on anything beyond the 6 core gangs.

Genestealer Cults, Chaos Cults, Corpse Grinders, Enforcers and Ogryn Gangs? Thats 5 new gangs beyond the 6 core gangs. Thats more than a whiff.

If GW keeps going as they appear to plan for next year we could potentially start seeing new gangs once every quarter.

 jake wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
True, but that's a bit like AoS. Necromunda started as 1 concept; changed and then changed again. Partly, from what I can tell, in response to really high sales volume. Basically GW went from "specialist side game" to "main game" attitude quite quickly; but it has resulted in a bit of a mess.

I think they are on a home run now though with a more long term plan setup for it simply because of the nature of the releases we are now getting. I'd at least expect to no see another "army book" for any faction until a new edition of the core rules. Though of course GW might well throw a lot of expansion rule packs in

We're still missing a bucketload of miniatures for the special characters, and we've yet to hear a whiff of info on anything beyond the 6 core gangs.

Genestealer Cults, Chaos Cults, Corpse Grinders, Enforcers and Ogryn Gangs? Thats 5 new gangs beyond the 6 core gangs. Thats more than a whiff.

Those don't count, because they're not the ones he was thinking of.

 Overread wrote:
If GW keeps going as they appear to plan for next year we could potentially start seeing new gangs once every quarter.

Is it just me or is there an unusually high level of wishlisting in this thread masquerading as considered speculation? A new gang every quarter you say, that's alongside Zedmeister's fully fleshed out Ash waste expansion with accompanying series of desert terrain and Grotsnick's MadMax Roadwarrior / Thunderdome spinoff game?

I'll bet my left nut we get nothing of the sort!

JWBS wrote:

 Overread wrote:
If GW keeps going as they appear to plan for next year we could potentially start seeing new gangs once every quarter.

Is it just me or is there an unusually high level of wishlisting in this thread masquerading as considered speculation? A new gang every quarter you say, that's alongside Zedmeister's fully fleshed out Ash waste expansion with accompanying series of desert terrain and Grotsnick's MadMax Roadwarrior / Thunderdome spinoff game?

I'll bet my left nut we get nothing of the sort!

You forgot the expansion into 40K as well.

But so far GW is aiming to do 1 new gang book every quarter. Considering that a "Gang" works with 1 miniature pack release GW could easily do 1 book and 2 packs (gangs and juve/specialist set) every 3 months. Granted its unlikely we'd see that since they've also got things that are not gangs and expansions to existing gangs. That would be an "at best" situation. However we could see two gangs or so a year.

 Dysartes wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
Do their quarters run Jan to Dec, or is it more like seasons?

That would be one heck of a long quarter.

In terms of new gangs in Necro17, what's the full list look like? Off the top of my head, I remember seeing:
- Chaos Cult (in WD)
- Genestealer Cult (in WD)
- Palatine Enforcers
- Slave Ogryns (latest Goliath book?)
- Corpse Grinders (cult #3? Not sure where printed)

There's an argument that Chaos/GSC/Enforcers have appeared before, but I can't recall where the former two would've been printed.

Any others that I've missed from released material thus far?

Helot Chaos Cult and Genestealer Cult saw the latest iteration of their rules, along with the Corpse Grinders, in the Book of Ruin. Corpse Ginders, along with Palanite Enforcers, were also included in the Dark Uprising Rulebook (with Enforcers also appearing in the Book of Judgment). Slave Ogryns were indeed in the Goliath book (House of Chains).

All of these gangs are ruleswise basically on par with the House gangs as they appear in Gangs of the Underhive, with Enforcers and Corpse Grinders also having their own dedicated skill trees like the newer House gangs, and Enforcers even already having two dedicated plastic kits. Rules for the Slave Ogryn gang were, it appears, an afterthought decided to include in House of Chains after the rules team saw the Ogryn brute kit and loved it so much they wanted to add more rules.

Both GSC and Helot Chaos cults are obviously included to allow you to play with kits normally intended for 40k (and, in the case of Chaos, Blackstone Fortress). I'm not sure they'll ever see dedicated Necromunda kits and therefore much-expanded rules.

Could we maybe move away from the political bickering before the mods arrive with some oversized hammers? As none if this is really new news...

I think the last actual Ratskin reference was Scabs (Kal Jericho's sidekick) being half-Ratskin.

beast_gts wrote:
I think the last actual Ratskin reference was Scabs (Kal Jericho's sidekick) being half-Ratskin.

There are references to other ratskins in some of the recent necromunda short stories, including the character Iktomi in the stories The Hand of Harrow and Low Lives

If we really want to get into wild speculation - there's been a fair amount of mention of "Iron Lords" and at least one glitched Man Of Iron kicking about. Machine uprising time?

I think it's pretty clear from the article that whatever reimagining they'll do to old gangs (and they will, see all the gangs so far), they're down on the list.

The water guild and the other new concepts clearly have a higher priority in the queue, which is why they're being teased, and not outlander gangs.

IDK, he has a point- regardless of personal opinions we live in a polarized era, and there is no going back.

It's pretty clear the Spanish Inquisition inspired sculpts are making people feel genuinely uncomfortable. I know this because I'm one of them.

It's not enough to rationalize it away by the origin of its design, we have to understand that for a large chunk of people they don't associate it with the Spanish, they associate it with a society dedicated entirely to hating others.

And yeah, while I get 40k is a dark future that show cases the darkest path of mankind is it really necessary to use iconography and designs that even today still represent our darkest real world aspects?

I don't think it has to be so.

I wouldn't want to say whether or not the Redemptionist garments are supposed to represent Nazarene robes. I am older than him though, and I live closer to Spain than he does, so I suppose he'd say I'm probably far more qualified to speak on it than he is, being two degrees less separated. Ok, I'll go with you on this - the Redemptionists, religious zealots that they are, might be modelled after the Spanish Inquisition and not the KKK. I mean, it's possible, right?

It wouldn't matter if they were; they no longer hold that symbolism for enough onlookers to be relevant.

Art is subjective because even if you have the artist there explaining their intention the onlooker will still make their own judgement based on how they feel about the piece.

Yeah it's pretty subjective. Personally I don't find the Klan to be massively relevant to modern life but I am rather fond of European and classical history. Good thing we don't all need to feel exactly the same way about Nineties era GW sculpts.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

JWBS wrote:

Let's just throw it all in the bin if it can be subverted by some bad actors. Let's ban Gone With The Wind too. I also think that statue of Churchill is quite upsetting, I heard he could sometimes be unpleasant.

Seems good.

Completely forgetting that GW is a for-profit business that doesn't cater to you, since you're not their target audience, but mostly to parents and kids with disposable income and not a lot of sense.

As they ever have.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
It wouldn't matter if they were; they no longer hold that symbolism for enough onlookers to be relevant.

Art is subjective because even if you have the artist there explaining their intention the onlooker will still make their own judgement based on how they feel about the piece.

It's especially difficult to make this argument of them being tied to the Spanish flagellants when you have a noose around the model's neck and bill the model as a member of an extremist religious group that takes justice into their own hands.

Redemptionists might have been modelled after the Spanish inquisition and it skated relatively under the radar or just as a "who cares?" thing back in the days when we had suicide collar Penal Legions, but it just doesn't really hold up when we have groups that legitimately have been trying to co-opt 40k's imagery and language for their own purposes. Why make it easier for them with crap like that?

Carlovonsexron wrote:
It's pretty clear the Spanish Inquisition inspired sculpts are making people feel genuinely uncomfortable. I know this because I'm one of them.

Particularly because they might be many things, but Spanish Inquisition ain't one of them. gak, not even the Monty Python one.

I mean, with the capirotes they kinda sorta look like nazarenos... but that's Holy Week, nothing to do with the Inquisition.

I won't claim an authoritative knowledge on the dress of the Catholic church (or Inquisition) in Spain! Only that I've seen the argument that the hood based design is inspired by it.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I won't claim an authoritative knowledge on the dress of the Catholic church (or Inquisition) in Spain! Only that I've seen the argument that the hood based design is inspired by it.

Doesn't really matter that the argument is from somewhere else if it's wrong, you know

What I meant is that even if you claim it's the Spanish Inquisition... well, for starters, it's wrong, and outside of Spain most people wont know what's a nazareno or what those capirotes are used for here.

They'll mostly see the Klan.

Does it bother me? Well, yes, because to me the link is clear, but to most people out there...

Also, welcome to Spain's Holy Week

https://www.google.com/search?q=capirote+semana+santa&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwifmvSJ1aDtAhUF1uAKHSJrDOwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=capirote+se&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQARgBMgIIADICCAA6BAgjECc6BAgAEEM6BQgAELEDOggIABCxAxCDAToECAAQAzoHCAAQsQMQQzoECAAQHjoGCAAQCBAeOgQIABAYUP1ZWMZsYMZ4aAFwAHgAgAFuiAGUCJIBBDEwLjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=bdy_X9-vO4Wsgwei1rHgDg&bih=610&biw=1280&client=firefox-b-d

It's apparent that they're a mashup of several distinct historical elements, like pretty much everything in 40K. Those carnival Grotesque masks for example - iconic Redemptionist. Not the Church, not the Klan, something else. There's also an explicit theme of ethnic cleansing attached to the faction. The argument can definitely be made that GW are justified in ditching them, but this leads to the obvious conclusion that lots and lots of 40K lore will have to be flushed on the strength or lack thereof in that argument.

Well, that's a derailment. I think the Redemptionists will be largely fine. There were only a few pointy hoods in the original line up and if people kicked up a stink over the executioner, well...

The rest were all in Monks Habbits:



So I reckon Cawdor without as much poverty but with more masks, brazier-hats, and flame effect habbits. Oh, and definitely the flamers and executioners. Oh the flamers...

 zedmeister wrote:
I think the Redemptionists will be largely fine. There were only a few pointy hoods in the original line up...

Fair point.

Folks, could we just... not? We've already had one Necromunda thread locked because this discussion got out of hand.

I think the original discussion was "Do you think the thing coming in 4th quarter 2021 will be Redemptionists or Ratskins" and so far the consensus seems to be "probably not, but who knows?"

Necromunda's Redemptionists were deliberate expies of Torquemada and the Terminators from the Nemesis the Warlock comic series. Klovis the Redeemer was created by Pat Mills, the same guy who created the Nemesis series and characters, and was an explicit callback to the Torquemada character.

IIRC, Pat Mills has stated that both the Spanish Inquisition and the KKK were influences on his Terminators (and therefore on the Redemptionists).

Redemptionists bad; murder cults and slavers fine.
Simples. Duh.

 Dysartes wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
Do their quarters run Jan to Dec, or is it more like seasons?

That would be one heck of a long quarter.

In terms of new gangs in Necro17, what's the full list look like? Off the top of my head, I remember seeing:
- Chaos Cult (in WD)
- Genestealer Cult (in WD)
- Palatine Enforcers
- Slave Ogryns (latest Goliath book?)
- Corpse Grinders (cult #3? Not sure where printed)

There's an argument that Chaos/GSC/Enforcers have appeared before, but I can't recall where the former two would've been printed.

Any others that I've missed from released material thus far?

Quarters of Jan to Dec are the same length as any other (April-March financial, Feb-ish to Jan for seasonal though not sure why they’d use seasons of the year).

I just removed a grip of off topic posts, if we can leave the politics for elsewhere, it would help keep the thread better focused, thanks!

Danny76 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
Do their quarters run Jan to Dec, or is it more like seasons?

That would be one heck of a long quarter.

In terms of new gangs in Necro17, what's the full list look like? Off the top of my head, I remember seeing:
- Chaos Cult (in WD)
- Genestealer Cult (in WD)
- Palatine Enforcers
- Slave Ogryns (latest Goliath book?)
- Corpse Grinders (cult #3? Not sure where printed)

There's an argument that Chaos/GSC/Enforcers have appeared before, but I can't recall where the former two would've been printed.

Any others that I've missed from released material thus far?

Quarters of Jan to Dec are the same length as any other (April-March financial, Feb-ish to Jan for seasonal though not sure why they’d use seasons of the year).

Anyone whose reporting includes quarters that are 12 months long is in the wrong job. With the possible exception of those working on the Olympics.

Man, I hate having to explain a joke.

@Insane Ivan - Glad to hear I hadn't missed anything, though it sounds like NMNR is causing some problems for the GSC and Chaos Cults? That's a shame - Necro is definitely one of those games where conversion options should be part and parcel of the whole experience.

Sounds like people have an infinite appetite for new content for this game. How many gangs you need, 12 is not enough? W OK uld 20 suffice? 50? How many special characters you need? I could teach you how to use a random number generator to create infinite amount of new weapons and characters. The game is going to have 96 skills, do we need more? The latest white dwarf includes tactics card nr 322. We will have maybe 100 more next year. 18 allies. Should we perhaps have 6 more? Another reset to print 6 house books again (and again)?

Balance and quality is obviously not of any concern. Quantity > quality?

It’s....it’s almost as if it’s possible for different people to have different opinions, appetites and preferences!

 Dysartes wrote:
.@Insane Ivan - Glad to hear I hadn't missed anything, though it sounds like NMNR is causing some problems for the GSC and Chaos Cults? That's a shame - Necro is definitely one of those games where conversion options should be part and parcel of the whole experience.

Well, Necromunda remains one of the few GW games where NMNR doesn’t always apply, though the amount of (arguably arbitrary) equipment restrictions is increasing. But there’s still plenty of options for which there are no models, and not just for the many Dramatis Personae.

For GSC and Chaos though, basically we’ve got them to use in the game, and their rules are OK. It’s just that I’d expect any further rules to be for dedicated Necromunda gangs, so rather than more Chaos cult rules we’d see more stuff for Corpse Grinders, for example. Or completely new gangs.

Gang n+1 is a good addition to the game if it fills a gap in the line not filled in the preceding n gangs.

Said gap can be thematic or mechanical, or ideally both.

Especially if the introduction of gang n+1 brings some cool new models along for the ride.

Enforcers and Slave Ogryns definitely qualify there, as they both provide something very different to other gangs.

I'd question if we need all three of GSC, Chaos & Corpse Grinders from a thematic perspective, but that's without having read into the background for the latter - and I've not read the most recent set of rules for any of them, so can't comment on the mechanical side of things.

 Insane Ivan wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
.@Insane Ivan - Glad to hear I hadn't missed anything, though it sounds like NMNR is causing some problems for the GSC and Chaos Cults? That's a shame - Necro is definitely one of those games where conversion options should be part and parcel of the whole experience.

Well, Necromunda remains one of the few GW games where NMNR doesn’t always apply, though the amount of (arguably arbitrary) equipment restrictions is increasing. But there’s still plenty of options for which there are no models, and not just for the many Dramatis Personae.

For GSC and Chaos though, basically we’ve got them to use in the game, and their rules are OK. It’s just that I’d expect any further rules to be for dedicated Necromunda gangs, so rather than more Chaos cult rules we’d see more stuff for Corpse Grinders, for example. Or completely new gangs.

We still don’t even have a good picture of what a Van Saar Arachnarig even Looks like much less a model for one, and we got those rules over a year ago.

Mr. Grey wrote:Not happy that I have to wait until Q3 for the book for the one gang that I play. Guess it is what it is.

well I guess someone has to be last....yayyy Delaque! Guess I'm waiting even longer. 2yrs in between releases, that's a recipe for success.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They might. I mean, I’m genuinely not ruling it out.

But I reckon we might see new gangs and/or environments explored.

would be cool, but realistically in 3 years @ the rate they're going.

I was reading the reddit discussion about the VS teaser, and apparently the GW stream may have referred to the champions as wearing 'Spyrer suits'?

Honestly, I hope that's how it pans out. Firstly, I love watching the reactionary traditionalists get salty when something isn't how it was in 1995. Secondly, small, elite gangs are almost always un-balanceable, so I wouldn't miss Spyrers being a self-contained gang at all.

So you want people who like Spyrers to suffer?

That sounds like a good attitude to have.

lmao I don't know where to start with that one.

Maybe with the proposition that not buying a new product because it doesn't capture what you liked about a 30 year old product constitutes "suffering."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you miss this inquiry, btw?

 Altruizine wrote:

[Dear H.B.M.C.,] Can you tell us how many of the Forgeworld Necromunda models you currently own, please? Will you be buying all future releases? When did you last play a game of Necromunda; and when was the last game you played in which you fielded a special character?

I need an answer to respectfully honour your suffering.

"I love watching the reactionary traditionalists get salty when something isn't how it was in 1995"

"I wouldn't miss Spyrers being a self-contained gang at all"

You don't want Spyrers back, and you'll enjoy the people unhappy with such a result.

As I said: Sounds like a good attitude to have.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"I love watching the reactionary traditionalists get salty when something isn't how it was in 1995"

"I wouldn't miss Spyrers being a self-contained gang at all"

You don't want Spyrers back, and you'll enjoy the people unhappy with such a result.

As I said: Sounds like a good attitude to have.

I like Spyrers, and I want them back. The best way to do that would be to sprinkle them around as Brutes, Hired Guns, Allies, members of extant gangs, etc. and not make them a self-contained gang.

But sprinking Spyrers as they were into other gangs, or as brutes isn't who or what they are. They don't work for down-hive houses; they are hunting parties from the upper Houses due to the interfaces needed to run them. Most likely would be to have the armours available to leaders/champions in Brat gangs

You could maybe get away with one or two as fallen house members that brought their rig with them, but that would be rare. I suspect we already have one of these with the winged guy.


As for needing GS Cult, Helots and Corpse Ginders they are all thematically different, fitting different parts of the hive story. GS Cult we know will come back with their own book at some point as they have talked about wanting to do the spire that got overrun/quarantined

 endtransmission wrote:
But sprinking Spyrers as they were into other gangs, or as brutes isn't who or what they are. They don't work for down-hive houses; they are hunting parties from the upper Houses due to the interfaces needed to run them. Most likely would be to have the armours available to leaders/champions in Brat gangs

You could maybe get away with one or two as fallen house members that brought their rig with them, but that would be rare. I suspect we already have one of these with the winged guy.

It would be great if they did them like an Edwardian hunting party; one or two actual Spyrers, plus a load of hangers-on. Armourers, loaders, the butler, a “native” guide, floozy with parasol, etc. A bit like the old-school inquisitorial acolytes.

 Jadenim wrote:


It would be great if they did them like an Edwardian hunting party; one or two actual Spyrers, plus a load of hangers-on. Armourers, loaders, the butler, a “native” guide, floozy with parasol, etc. A bit like the old-school inquisitorial acolytes.

Great idea for their hangers on. Really reinforces that they’re a bunch of fops and layabouts in daddy’s pocket. After all, who needs an ammojack? There’s more important people to bring like the pastry chef and maid!

Spyrers. My least favourite aspect of the original.

I found them really quite dull. And prone to attracting power gamers uninterested in the narrative side of the game. And my focus on the narrative side is again just my own little quirk - I am not saying, suggesting, insinuating or claiming to be Right, or even that there’s a Right Way to play Necromunda. You do you my dudes.

But hey folks, that doesn’t mean they should be removed at all. Nor does it mean they should be redesigned or otherwise shifted from what they are.

You don’t like them? Cool. Then head up a campaign where they’re not allowed to participate.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"I love watching the reactionary traditionalists get salty when something isn't how it was in 1995"

"I wouldn't miss Spyrers being a self-contained gang at all"

You don't want Spyrers back, and you'll enjoy the people unhappy with such a result.

As I said: Sounds like a good attitude to have.

That's not what he said, though.

He thinks it's funny to see how the old players overreact when GW doesn't do the same for Necromunda than in 1995. Not that he enjoys the suffering of people loving Spyrers not seeing them in the new edition - after all, they don't have to come back the way they were before.

And he said he doesn't mind Spyrers not being in the current edition as a self contained gang. Not that he doesn't want to see Spyrers at all.


TBH, Spyrers working as a gang like the others always felt wrong. They are meant to be overpowered and above the scum of the Underhive. They're Spyrers, after all. I too wouldn't mind them to be played differently as well, to represent that better. I see them more like individual predators than a band working together, personnally.

Like playing a Marbo scenario in 40k : a gang facing an unseen monstruous killer and trying desperatly to survive, despite their higher numbers. Spyrers in a special survival scenario would work great, I think, and totally translate the aura of fear these guys truly give to the Underhive inhabitants.

Again, has there been any mention of Spyrers in the latest version?

There's quite a lot of Noble House activity downhive now - Rebel lords, noble house representatives and a fair few Dramtis Personae.

Looks wise, the Van Saar have got the hi-tech body armour covered. Rules wise, they've got:

The Arachnorig - A hybrid of Malcandon and Orrus
Freikstorn Strix - Who's basically a Yeld
Any Random Gang Leader with an energy shield - Jakara

Take that little lot and it's going to clock in around 700 creds. Godness knows what special rules the new three armed guys are going to have, and with the hoverboards they've got Yeld flight well and truly covered.

The Van Saar ARE the spyrers in this edition.

I'll wait for the background written in the House of Artifices before saying they're Spyrers. So far, what is written for the new edition doesn't go that way. It's just that they have access to a STC and that's the reason why their technology is so advanced.

They also don't really work the same as the old Spyrers, since they're more looking for archeotech and experimenting in the Underhive rather than having "fun" hunting scummers for the sport.

TBH, we already have Spyrers in the new Necromunda, with the noble house agents.

I think Spyrers were mentioned in one of those Twitch streams at some point, that if/when they return, they'll be quite different (mainly due to the power level... although starting with high stats is exactly what we're already seeing in Newcromunda, so it would be surprising if they considered that a sticking point). Been a while though, so don't quote me on this. I like the concept in terms of fluff and those wargear options, but the execution could do with some changes. I certainly would enjoy seeing this version:

 Jadenim wrote:
It would be great if they did them like an Edwardian hunting party; one or two actual Spyrers, plus a load of hangers-on. Armourers, loaders, the butler, a “native” guide, floozy with parasol, etc. A bit like the old-school inquisitorial acolytes.

Would both make for interesting gameplay and a lot of great modelling options.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
I think Spyrers were mentioned in one of those Twitch streams at some point, that if/when they return, they'll be quite different (mainly due to the power level... although starting with high stats is exactly what we're already seeing in Newcromunda, so it would be surprising if they considered that a sticking point). Been a while though, so don't quote me on this. I like the concept in terms of fluff and those wargear options, but the execution could do with some changes. I certainly would enjoy seeing this version:

 Jadenim wrote:
It would be great if they did them like an Edwardian hunting party; one or two actual Spyrers, plus a load of hangers-on. Armourers, loaders, the butler, a “native” guide, floozy with parasol, etc. A bit like the old-school inquisitorial acolytes.

Would both make for interesting gameplay and a lot of great modelling options.

It does make you wonder if the irony of people that get EXTREMELY UPSET at aesthetic changes to small plastic figures then complaining about the whinging of a "vocal minority" is being lost on some people.

What I would like to point out is that I'm an old-timer from the 90s for whom Necromunda was THE tabletop game for me. Its gradual decline was very sad for me.

Now we have a new ruleset, new figures, new gangs, etc. This is great for me as not only can I buy new, up to date figures that look great (and are more customisable as they're plastic (though I don't consider myself a slouch when it comes to metal figures...)), but there are also new players, too. Wonderful. It's not a core game so some stuff is Forgeworld, and updates obviously aren't as common as they would be if it were. This is the reality. I could complain about that, but... why?

Changes have been made to my old favourite gangs. This is to be expected. I could complain about this but... where would that get me?

Some gangs I enjoyed playing may not come back, like Redemptionists and Spyrers. That's a shame. I could complain about this but... you get the idea.

Games Workshop will go where they want to with the game. If that's a thousand supplements and significant aesthetic changes to the miniatures, that's what it will be. If either of those things really bug me to the point where it makes me upset, I'll step off the train and find something else to occupy my time.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
I think Spyrers were mentioned in one of those Twitch streams at some point, that if/when they return, they'll be quite different (mainly due to the power level... although starting with high stats is exactly what we're already seeing in Newcromunda, so it would be surprising if they considered that a sticking point). Been a while though, so don't quote me on this. I like the concept in terms of fluff and those wargear options, but the execution could do with some changes. I certainly would enjoy seeing this version:

 Jadenim wrote:
It would be great if they did them like an Edwardian hunting party; one or two actual Spyrers, plus a load of hangers-on. Armourers, loaders, the butler, a “native” guide, floozy with parasol, etc. A bit like the old-school inquisitorial acolytes.

Would both make for interesting gameplay and a lot of great modelling options.

Spyrers where talked about when asked about new gangs and I think they showed some artwork for Guilders at the same time. I couldn’t tell if Spyrers where going to become Guilders or if they are going to remain separate. Of the Guilders they previewed it looks like the water guild will be coming out soon, but I wonder if the Corpse Guild got turned into the Corpse Grinder Cult.
Has anyone heard about rat skin now that natives where mentioned?

Ratskins are mentioned often enough in the various books to still be a thing, they have a trading post item, the Ratskin Map, and are mentioned as being hired often as scouts and guides.

Sarouan wrote:

TBH, Spyrers working as a gang like the others always felt wrong. They are meant to be overpowered and above the scum of the Underhive. They're Spyrers, after all. I too wouldn't mind them to be played differently as well, to represent that better. I see them more like individual predators than a band working together, personnally.

Whenever Spyrers appear in the novels or short stories, they are either a) One overpowered individual like the underhive vampire in the Kal novel, or b) a group of upper hive nobles (or their guards) on a hunting trip that work in a very co-ordinated spec-ops manner with each rig having it's own purpose in the hunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Smaug wrote:
Spyrers where talked about when asked about new gangs and I think they showed some artwork for Guilders at the same time. I couldn’t tell if Spyrers where going to become Guilders or if they are going to remain separate.

I can't remember the full extent of it, but I was under the impression that they were still looking at what to do with Spyrers and the in a switch/bait they went on to talk about Guilders? The two fulfil very different roles as one is uphive nobles with rare equipment going on hunts, the other are freeroaming organisations from Hive City (or below) that keep the hive running

 Altruizine wrote:
I was reading the reddit discussion about the VS teaser, and apparently the GW stream may have referred to the champions as wearing 'Spyrer suits'?

Honestly, I hope that's how it pans out. Firstly, I love watching the reactionary traditionalists get salty when something isn't how it was in 1995. Secondly, small, elite gangs are almost always un-balanceable, so I wouldn't miss Spyrers being a self-contained gang at all.

No, the suits were called 'Spider rigs', even called it a bit insectile. You can look here if you want to hear it yourself. It is just after 53:30 minutes.

 Pjats wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
I was reading the reddit discussion about the VS teaser, and apparently the GW stream may have referred to the champions as wearing 'Spyrer suits'?

Honestly, I hope that's how it pans out. Firstly, I love watching the reactionary traditionalists get salty when something isn't how it was in 1995. Secondly, small, elite gangs are almost always un-balanceable, so I wouldn't miss Spyrers being a self-contained gang at all.

No, the suits were called 'Spider rigs', even called it a bit insectile. You can look here if you want to hear it yourself. It is just after 53:30 minutes.

Thanks. Sounds like someone was watching inattentively and heard "Spyrer" when they said "spider," and generated this rumour. Guess we can shelve the Spyrer discussion for now.

House of Artifice and Van Saar champs/prospects next week folks.

I’m in for the book, because I’m a slag for it.

Fast turn around, not expecting a 2020 release to be honest. Even so, they'll be a nice addition to my Van Saars. Now need to get some Fluorescent paints for the hover board yoofs.

I’m mostly in it for the background and Hangers On stuff.

Hope to run a campaign in the future, so having a full suite of the books is very much handy! As are the various breakdowns of rules oddities/typos, as they help me get ahead of the game in terms of House Rules (which are a constant in my campaigns, as I’m a dedicated fiddler).

I’ll get the book and probably a box of the new guys. I have an unbuilt Van Saar gang and they’re my favourite of the redesigns, aesthetically.

They were my gang in classic Necromunda, and therefore the one I was most excited about during the reboot, but they turned out to be extremely boring to build and play. I ended up having more fun with GSC and Orlocks.

I'm hoping the new prospects and champions bring something new to the table (ie. good mobile shooting/grenade chucking or good dedicated melee fighters). I'll buy and assemble a box out of boredom either way, though.

Van Saar have the best kit in term of idea and weapon choice but due to lack of experience from the sprue designer the gun bit are fiddly and easily bent if dropped. At least the guns are all in one piece in the resin weapon packs. Because you don't want to super glue fiddly resin joint.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/07/lore-discover-the-secrets-of-the-van-saar-in-house-of-artifice/





Dear GW, i need these minis NOW

Yeah yeah, me too!

:O

Nice though it will be to play with Cattalus allies, I'd love to have a full gang of them

Grav-Cutter? so it's actually green goblin hoverboard.

Chopstick wrote:
Grav-Cutter? so it's actually green goblin hoverboard.

I think its interesting they've decided to call them grav-cutters, since its a term used in the novels for a variety of larger anti-grav vehicles... human vehicles that appear as everything from the civilian equivalent to a DE raider to atmospheric only Valkyrie sort of crafts... this is first I've seen the term applied to a single person vehicle.

Fully here for the 40k Carnevale people. Although they'll probably end up being £40 for two models from Forge World

We already have 2 characters from house cattalus as BH from book of perils. The one from the art will be the free dude from alliance.

If nothing else there is some gorgeous art being produced for Necromunda

Holy gak, I want those!

Oh, but they'll be forgeworld releases, huh?

Nevermind

 The Power Cosmic wrote:
Holy gak, I want those!

Oh, but they'll be forgeworld releases, huh?

Nevermind

People thought Slave Ogryn were going to be FW releases too...the answer is "who knows?"

Ready for a clown gang.

I don’t really remember much of the upper houses.
How many are there, one linked with each gang?
(And were they featured in the other House Of books?)

What if the house agents were the next-gen spyrers? I do like all the ones we've seen thus far!

Danny76 wrote:
Ready for a clown gang.

I don’t really remember much of the upper houses.
How many are there, one linked with each gang?
(And were they featured in the other House Of books?)

Yup. Each book has had a Noble House as a close ally.

Goliath has House Greim, Escher has House Ulanti, Orlock has House Ran Lo

Leaving Helmawr out of the seven, that leaves Ko’Iron and Ty for Cawdor and Delaque.

Yes, all those names seem familiar.
But we haven’t really had models yet for any of those have we?
A character from Ulanti? Or maybe a few of the FW specials, I can’t really say I’ve looked at them too much apart from being cool models or not etc..

We've not had any house or guild models thus far. GW has teased both for a long while and its clear that at some point Necromunda stalled on models for a bit as it had a reboot into its current form.

Plus the specialist games suddenly took off in a big way and I think it left them scrabbling for manpower and such.

Suffice to say I hope that hump (excluding corona) is over and we are heading toward a time when we'll see all these neat things they've teased in artwork.

Well I like Kage and Hark.
Thaetos, I have him from when it was just a Psyker.

I suppose for bounty hunters or hired guns, you could go third party and get some cool stuff..

 Overread wrote:
We've not had any house or guild models thus far. GW has teased both for a long while and its clear that at some point Necromunda stalled on models for a bit as it had a reboot into its current form.

Plus the specialist games suddenly took off in a big way and I think it left them scrabbling for manpower and such.

Suffice to say I hope that hump (excluding corona) is over and we are heading toward a time when we'll see all these neat things they've teased in artwork.

Mercator Guild is out https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Mercator-Sanguis-Slaver-Entourage-2020

Updated roadmap promises a Gap Filler wave in Q1 as well.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
We've not had any house or guild models thus far. GW has teased both for a long while and its clear that at some point Necromunda stalled on models for a bit as it had a reboot into its current form.

Plus the specialist games suddenly took off in a big way and I think it left them scrabbling for manpower and such.

Suffice to say I hope that hump (excluding corona) is over and we are heading toward a time when we'll see all these neat things they've teased in artwork.

Mercator Guild is out https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Mercator-Sanguis-Slaver-Entourage-2020

Ahh I missed them - likely cause the design and colour scheme are pure Goliath so I just made the assumption they were more Goliaths.

 Overread wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
We've not had any house or guild models thus far. GW has teased both for a long while and its clear that at some point Necromunda stalled on models for a bit as it had a reboot into its current form.

Plus the specialist games suddenly took off in a big way and I think it left them scrabbling for manpower and such.

Suffice to say I hope that hump (excluding corona) is over and we are heading toward a time when we'll see all these neat things they've teased in artwork.

Mercator Guild is out https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Mercator-Sanguis-Slaver-Entourage-2020

Ahh I missed them - likely cause the design and colour scheme are pure Goliath so I just made the assumption they were more Goliaths.

Still trying to figure out how leather pants, a necklace of skulls, and two shoulder pads count as light carapace armour… unless we’re doing the Picard vs. Chunk meme?

EDIT:

Already answered by 10 people above me. You guys are fast.

 Overread wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
We've not had any house or guild models thus far. GW has teased both for a long while and its clear that at some point Necromunda stalled on models for a bit as it had a reboot into its current form.

Plus the specialist games suddenly took off in a big way and I think it left them scrabbling for manpower and such.

Suffice to say I hope that hump (excluding corona) is over and we are heading toward a time when we'll see all these neat things they've teased in artwork.

Mercator Guild is out https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Mercator-Sanguis-Slaver-Entourage-2020

Ahh I missed them - likely cause the design and colour scheme are pure Goliath so I just made the assumption they were more Goliaths.

They kind of are, according to the description:
"Improve your Goliath Gang's chances of success in the underhive by forming an alliance with a Slave Guild. This opens up the option of including a Slaver Entourage in your forces, offering even more close combat hitting power to your gang."

Its less a 'guild gang' as it part of the confusing morass of N17 rules.

Voss wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
We've not had any house or guild models thus far. GW has teased both for a long while and its clear that at some point Necromunda stalled on models for a bit as it had a reboot into its current form.

Plus the specialist games suddenly took off in a big way and I think it left them scrabbling for manpower and such.

Suffice to say I hope that hump (excluding corona) is over and we are heading toward a time when we'll see all these neat things they've teased in artwork.

Mercator Guild is out https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Mercator-Sanguis-Slaver-Entourage-2020

Ahh I missed them - likely cause the design and colour scheme are pure Goliath so I just made the assumption they were more Goliaths.

They kind of are, according to the description:
"Improve your Goliath Gang's chances of success in the underhive by forming an alliance with a Slave Guild. This opens up the option of including a Slaver Entourage in your forces, offering even more close combat hitting power to your gang."

Its less a 'guild gang' as it part of the confusing morass of N17 rules.

They are available to any other House too, like the other Guild representatives.

They are all under the category of "Alliance". There are 3 types of alliances:
- Guild (Law-abiding gangs only)
- Recidivist (Outlaw gangs only)
- Noble (any gang)

There are (or will be) 6 unique alliances for each of these 3 types. We had Guilds and Recidivists since Book of Peril & Judgement 2019. They have however been updated since that. Nobles are new in N20.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
We've not had any house or guild models thus far. GW has teased both for a long while and its clear that at some point Necromunda stalled on models for a bit as it had a reboot into its current form.

Plus the specialist games suddenly took off in a big way and I think it left them scrabbling for manpower and such.

Suffice to say I hope that hump (excluding corona) is over and we are heading toward a time when we'll see all these neat things they've teased in artwork.

Mercator Guild is out https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Mercator-Sanguis-Slaver-Entourage-2020

Ahh I missed them - likely cause the design and colour scheme are pure Goliath so I just made the assumption they were more Goliaths.

They kind of are, according to the description:
"Improve your Goliath Gang's chances of success in the underhive by forming an alliance with a Slave Guild. This opens up the option of including a Slaver Entourage in your forces, offering even more close combat hitting power to your gang."

Its less a 'guild gang' as it part of the confusing morass of N17 rules.

They are available to any other House too, like the other Guild representatives.

Yeah, the Goliath connection is just that they’re best buds, which is ironic considering how the (current) House Goliath came to be.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/08/underhive-informant-building-an-even-better-gang-stronghold/

Oh hey, not a filler article, good.

I really like the gate piece in that gang stronghold..

Chopstick wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/08/underhive-informant-building-an-even-better-gang-stronghold/

Oh hey, not a filler article, good.

Well, it has useful content, but it is a filler article because it's literally just the dude who sculpted them's tweets from a couple of weeks ago given a quick formatting.

For real though everyone should follow him, he does a series of tips & tricks on his twitter every time they release one of his pieces.

His stuff is super cool

So this might be an insufferably noobish question, but are there rules for playing with the stronghold?

I believe they’re in the box?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just remembered I’ve got £25.20 worth of Crystals with Element.

Guess I’m getting the House of Artifice for free!

 Yodhrin wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/08/underhive-informant-building-an-even-better-gang-stronghold/

Oh hey, not a filler article, good.

Well, it has useful content, but it is a filler article because it's literally just the dude who sculpted them's tweets from a couple of weeks ago given a quick formatting.

For real though everyone should follow him, he does a series of tips & tricks on his twitter every time they release one of his pieces.

Twitter is a pretty poor place for finding back specific content, or finding separate, but related posts. If this is filler content, I don't know what useful content would look like (within the boundaries of the stuff published on WarCom). As you say, it's useful information, and publishing it on a platform which reaches more/different people and has better formatting and archivability seems a good choice.

Talk about filler content, 3 more end-game scenarios in december white dwarf. We had this a long time already. What we really need are scenarios that are something different than bog standard shootouts (disguised with shallow 'objectives').

Well it could be like 9th, where every mission is just rearranging the same 4-8 markers around the table and scoring points off those.

Baxx wrote:
Talk about filler content, 3 more end-game scenarios in december white dwarf. We had this a long time already. What we really need are scenarios that are something different than bog standard shootouts (disguised with shallow 'objectives').

It’s...a magazine article, wasn’t exactly expecting game changing stuff.

Anyways, I prefer to write up my own narrative driven scenarios, especially to wrap up a season

Apparently Van Saar are also due to be getting DLC for the Underhive Wars game in the next couple of days.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well it could be like 9th, where every mission is just rearranging the same 4-8 markers around the table and scoring points off those.

That's what happens when people ignore the dynamic and more diverse tactical objectives because they are less predictable in a war game.

Yup, the same modular gun build as the normal gang kit. And they couldn't just give us a new part, like a combi weapon for the champs. Also look to be the same flimsy joint too, so don't drop them or push them too hard.

That sprue is packed. Unfortunately everything looks quite flimsy. That said, I think there's more sprue than miniature there.

Got me book ordered. Suspect I may not see it until after Christmas though, as our postal service is kinda overwhelmed.

Book, dice and cards ordered. Yes, I am a sucker

I have the first green dice set, but i like blue too.

 Graphite wrote:
Apparently Van Saar are also due to be getting DLC for the Underhive Wars game in the next couple of days.

Looks like fun



https://steamcommunity.com/app/566440/eventcomments/2985287984603687838?ctp=5

Oh wow, I was way off on speculating what Alliances where going to be featured in this book.

Art looks cool

zamerion wrote:

Spoiler:

That looks remarkably advanced for Imperials and even 40k in general. It doesn't have the wonky dark fantasy horror of the admech and is sleeker even than the new primaris stuff. It seems like it fits better in a universe like AT-43's UNA. This isn't a complaint btw as I actually like the design.

Hmmm... I prefer the female spider rig Brute design that has been depicted since the original VS release. I hope the model offers a choice between make and female design...

Cool. Now make the fething model.

 warboss wrote:

zamerion wrote:

Spoiler:

That looks remarkably advanced for Imperials and even 40k in general. It doesn't have the wonky dark fantasy horror of the admech and is sleeker even than the new primaris stuff. It seems like it fits better in a universe like AT-43's UNA. This isn't a complaint btw as I actually like the design.

I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

 warboss wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

That looks remarkably advanced for Imperials and even 40k in general. It doesn't have the wonky dark fantasy horror of the admech and is sleeker even than the new primaris stuff. It seems like it fits better in a universe like AT-43's UNA. This isn't a complaint btw as I actually like the design.

I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.

That doesn't necessarily explain the difference in aesthetics. Genestealer cult environmental suits are STC tech, as is the Rhino hull, for example, and they're not sleek and rounded.

It's easily explained away by different STCs producing different specifics even with the same input, but the Van Saar look is definitely distinct from what we've generally come to expect of 40K's human high technology.

zamerion wrote:

I do love the art in the newcomunda books - sigh best get this one too!

When you look at some of the theme forces for the Imperial Guard there is a vast range of designs on show. When you read the lore you realise that there are regiments that look and are designed very sleek and modern; others very rough and ready; some are in full parade dress with bright flamboyant and totally impractical dress.

The setting has an overall gothic theme and the Imperial designs have that as well; but that doesn't mean that there is no diversity within the structure to allow for variation. Van Saar having some divergence from pure gothic isn't a bad thing. Variety is a good thing in such a huge setting otherwise we can end up with single themes becoming so overriding that they actually lose their flavour and interest.

And that is what the Centurion should have been...

 Flinty wrote:
And that is what the Centurion should have been...

People would hate it for the same reason they had the Scout-Dreadnought and the Grey Knight walker. They hate suits which leaves the pilot "exposed" and looks like a baby carrier.

Yeah, the only thing the Centurion should have been is not made at all.

Personally think I prefer the earlier depiction, with the more sleek and spider-like design, but frankly I'll be content enough just to see it finally sculpted and released.

I’m in for the minis, the book and the cards. Can’t wait to see the FW stuff.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cool. Now make the fething model.

'Cause you're a solid day one preorder, yeah?

 Altruizine wrote:

[Dear H.B.M.C.,] Can you tell us how many of the Forgeworld Necromunda models you currently own, please? Will you be buying all future releases? When did you last play a game of Necromunda; and when was the last game you played in which you fielded a special character?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

Is that new fluff for Van Saar as of this article or something mentioned in older editions?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/07/lore-discover-the-secrets-of-the-van-saar-in-house-of-artifice/

On a less silly note, is anyone else thinking that the "Reinforcements" that got teased for January are going to be plastic and FW rather than just FW?

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

That looks remarkably advanced for Imperials and even 40k in general. It doesn't have the wonky dark fantasy horror of the admech and is sleeker even than the new primaris stuff. It seems like it fits better in a universe like AT-43's UNA. This isn't a complaint btw as I actually like the design.

I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.

That doesn't necessarily explain the difference in aesthetics. Genestealer cult environmental suits are STC tech, as is the Rhino hull, for example, and they're not sleek and rounded.

It's easily explained away by different STCs producing different specifics even with the same input, but the Van Saar look is definitely distinct from what we've generally come to expect of 40K's human high technology.

Depends entirely on what fragments they’ve got. Because that’s what all existing STC’s are - bits and bobs found and approved.

A fully functioning STC is described in the background as being the sum total of mankind’s technical knowledge. Exploratory Fleets were given one of these wonders, so where ever they wound up and laid their hat as their new home, man’s knowledge went with them. They’re described as thinking engines. Basically, you input both what you needed to build, and the materials you had to hand - and it would tell you how to achieve your goal. Or it would build it for you. That really depends on your source. Both may actually be true, as it’s entirely possible over time newer and updated STC’s were developed, with more modern ones being that bit more sophisticated.

Van Saar appears (new background may clarify or further muddy) to have a more complete STC - or at the very least, a very specific, and unique STC fragment that no one else has access to.

And even if someone does, it may simply be the sheer pressure of demand that sees them churn out “good enough” variants over “real craftsmanship”. There is after all good reason the Guard are issued Lasguns over more powerful, but considerably more complex weapons.

 Kanluwen wrote:
On a less silly note, is anyone else thinking that the "Reinforcements" that got teased for January are going to be plastic and FW rather than just FW?

No.

 warboss wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

Is that new fluff for Van Saar as of this article or something mentioned in older editions?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/07/lore-discover-the-secrets-of-the-van-saar-in-house-of-artifice/

It's new for this edition - it was first mentioned in their Gang book.

beast_gts wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

Is that new fluff for Van Saar as of this article or something mentioned in older editions?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/07/lore-discover-the-secrets-of-the-van-saar-in-house-of-artifice/

It's new for this edition - it was first mentioned in their Gang book.

Gang War 3 or 4?

 privateer4hire wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

Is that new fluff for Van Saar as of this article or something mentioned in older editions?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/07/lore-discover-the-secrets-of-the-van-saar-in-house-of-artifice/

It's new for this edition - it was first mentioned in their Gang book.

Gang War 3 or 4?

Gang War 3 was the Van Saar one.

Three books in three years. Space marines and stormcast, watch out!

 privateer4hire wrote:
Three books in three years. Space marines and stormcast, watch out!

Stormcast got close if you include the Grand Alliance books which were pushed out very fast for AoS when things started to slowly turn around. I think Khorne also wound up with 2 or 3 as well in a short span of time.

Same as Necromunda though, the promoting angle wasn't so much GW looking to sell more books, but rather rapid changes in product design and focus. Whilst Necromunda didn't have the CEO change as well, it did go through several clear versions as a result of increasing sales and popularity.

One can hope that like AoS 2.0 has settled; Necromunda in its current form will also start to settle.

Having 360 the models, I really don't like the random spike on the chest of the archeotek guys. It just seems really unnecessary and more of a nuisance than serving any practical reason

 GaroRobe wrote:
Having 360 the models, I really don't like the random spike on the chest of the archeotek guys. It just seems really unnecessary and more of a nuisance than serving any practical reason

Yeah i agree, but it seems to be a seperate part so hopefully can be left off without too much hassle.

 Overread wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
Three books in three years. Space marines and stormcast, watch out!

...

One can hope that like AoS 2.0 has settled; Necromunda in its current form will also start to settle.

I strongly suspect N21 before next year is over. With only two major houses left to cover, it can't be too long before a reboot comes along.

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
Three books in three years. Space marines and stormcast, watch out!

...

One can hope that like AoS 2.0 has settled; Necromunda in its current form will also start to settle.

I strongly suspect N21 before next year is over. With only two major houses left to cover, it can't be too long before a reboot comes along.

I was more expecting a Trading Post/Black Market/Hired Gun book rather than another main rulebook.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
Three books in three years. Space marines and stormcast, watch out!

...

One can hope that like AoS 2.0 has settled; Necromunda in its current form will also start to settle.

I strongly suspect N21 before next year is over. With only two major houses left to cover, it can't be too long before a reboot comes along.

I was more expecting a Trading Post/Black Market/Hired Gun book rather than another main rulebook.

They can probably publish that/those, too. And then, the new edition

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 warboss wrote:

zamerion wrote:

Spoiler:

That looks remarkably advanced for Imperials and even 40k in general. It doesn't have the wonky dark fantasy horror of the admech and is sleeker even than the new primaris stuff. It seems like it fits better in a universe like AT-43's UNA. This isn't a complaint btw as I actually like the design.

I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

That will never stop being one of if not the dumbest pieces of fluff GW have ever done. And in what universe is giving their Juves grav-powered hoverboards and their gangers Rad Cannons(were those not "use by special appointment of the Emperor or the High Lords only, on pain of figgin extraction"?) and everyone in their House using incredibly advanced modular weapons tech unseen anywhere else in the setting "on the down-low"? The idea one of the most important hubs of production in the entire Imperium has *zero* Mechanicus oversight, not even a single clandestine Mechanicus agent, not even a local with enough access to get a message off-world and a grudge large enough to motivate them to send it, over a period of *millennia*, is so laughable it's not even funny anymore.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 warboss wrote:

zamerion wrote:

Spoiler:

That looks remarkably advanced for Imperials and even 40k in general. It doesn't have the wonky dark fantasy horror of the admech and is sleeker even than the new primaris stuff. It seems like it fits better in a universe like AT-43's UNA. This isn't a complaint btw as I actually like the design.

I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

That will never stop being one of if not the dumbest pieces of fluff GW have ever done. And in what universe is giving their Juves grav-powered hoverboards and their gangers Rad Cannons(were those not "use by special appointment of the Emperor or the High Lords only, on pain of figgin extraction"?) and everyone in their House using incredibly advanced modular weapons tech unseen anywhere else in the setting "on the down-low"? The idea one of the most important hubs of production in the entire Imperium has *zero* Mechanicus oversight, not even a single clandestine Mechanicus agent, not even a local with enough access to get a message off-world and a grudge large enough to motivate them to send it, over a period of *millennia*, is so laughable it's not even funny anymore.

Welcome to Imperial Bureaucracy.

Where entire admin departments of an entire sector (not just planet) can be subverted and their whole output corrupted by the forces of Chaos; where entire systems scheduled for cleansing and colonising can be forgotten for thousands of years; where weapons of war that protect the entire Imperium are built to religious text design with any deviation punishable by death or worse; where computers are so feared and outlawed that human minds are slaved to provide calculation duties within mechanical husks.
Bribery, corruption, religion, insane incompetence and more are rife.

Necromunda as a planet is a whole Mary-Sue pile of issues - it's a hive world with it's own governor that it also an official Imperial Fists recruiting world (so should be under their control) that also should have been Exterminatus'd several times - Genestealer cults, Chaos uprisings, biological horrors, democracy, etc.

All covered though.

Not being the Imperial Fist home world, it’s not their Ward.

The rest? Provided a given planet meets its tithe, they’re basically left alone more or less entirely.

Lets not also overlook that the Imperium has limited resources; a world that's otherwise behaving itself and giving its tithe and output might well be left alone compared to worlds on the fringe that are far more corrupted and where the flow of tithes and such has stopped. Heck as noted earlier - Necromunda might well have a scheduled exterminatus or invasion or otherwise correction coming its way. It's just buried in the admin and held up.

The expanded Necromunda background also serves as a pretty neat explanation of why tithe meeting worlds are typically left be.

And it’s all in the power structure. House Helmawr are very, very adept at encouraging competition, and co-dependency in the lesser Houses.

Just as House Helmawr are let be by the Administratum, so do Helmawr leave the lesser houses be, provided they make good on present arrangements. And everyone more-or-less respects that arrangement.

Sure, Escher might want to expand their holdings - but if that arrangement is to last, they’d need to be able to replicate the competence and output of whoever they’ve displaced.

Now, let’s say the various issues on Necromunda did lead to an Administratum enforced regime change....how exactly do you do that without throwing an otherwise highly productive and dependable planet into anarchy?

If you elevate an existing house to replace Helmawr? That won’t really work due to the political structure. Ro-Lan might support Ko-Iron, where Ulanti and the others would take exception. That leads to conflict, and would affect tithe output.

Introduce a new Governor from off-planet? Same result - internal bickering and conflict.

Helmawr knows this, as do the other houses. The other houses can’t make aggressive moves against Helmawr, because he has Imperial backing. So it has to be a gradual, incremental seizing of power. Move to fast, too hard or too soon? And the house of card falls apart, and everyone stands to lose.

I for one find it a fascinating dynamic!

 Mr_Rose wrote:

I knew someone was going to make this post… the answer is they have a freaking STC system. Fully functional.
Except for that unfortunate system error that insists that polonium is an absolutely vital component of every alloy…
But yeah they’re operating off of golden era tech. Even though they have to keep it on the down-low to avoid the Adeptus Mechanicus razing the place to the ground…

That and the curiously Necron looking tech they have at the centre of their HQ.
Would love to get more about how it was originally a working STC but someone tried to make it 'better' with a little techno-heresy and now everyone is scrambling for centuries to try to repair it and cover up anything untoward (even Helmawr apparently)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The expanded Necromunda background also serves as a pretty neat explanation of why tithe meeting worlds are typically left be.

And it’s all in the power structure. House Helmawr are very, very adept at encouraging competition, and co-dependency in the lesser Houses.

Just as House Helmawr are let be by the Administratum, so do Helmawr leave the lesser houses be, provided they make good on present arrangements. And everyone more-or-less respects that arrangement.

Sure, Escher might want to expand their holdings - but if that arrangement is to last, they’d need to be able to replicate the competence and output of whoever they’ve displaced.

Now, let’s say the various issues on Necromunda did lead to an Administratum enforced regime change....how exactly do you do that without throwing an otherwise highly productive and dependable planet into anarchy?

If you elevate an existing house to replace Helmawr? That won’t really work due to the political structure. Ro-Lan might support Ko-Iron, where Ulanti and the others would take exception. That leads to conflict, and would affect tithe output.

Introduce a new Governor from off-planet? Same result - internal bickering and conflict.

Helmawr knows this, as do the other houses. The other houses can’t make aggressive moves against Helmawr, because he has Imperial backing. So it has to be a gradual, incremental seizing of power. Move to fast, too hard or too soon? And the house of card falls apart, and everyone stands to lose.

I for one find it a fascinating dynamic!

Also, people forget that the Imperium is fundamentally a feudal hierarchy with Planetary Governors as the local knights. They run their village (planet) as they see fit and no-one cares what happens to the peasants unless and until they make a big enough stink to affect a neighbouring village or stop the taxes.
The Lex Imperialis does not cover the actions of ordinary civilians except inasmuch as it prohibits heresy and so forth but even there that’s more of an admonition to the governors that their job is to stop that by any means necessary.

Really the only Imperial organisation that could or should care about the shenanigans going on on Necromunda is the Inquisition and unless they sneak in with the Cold Traders, they will end up in Hive Primus first and who’s to say the Van Saar keep their STC there? It’s not the original capital of Necromunda after all.

As for the planetary authorities, as long as the Van Saar can be relied upon to “invent” any new toys Lord Helmawr decides he needs, they will be left alone. Much like the Escher and their fancy fun-time formulations. After all, if he did drop the hammer on them, who’s to say the device wouldn’t “accidentally” get broken before it could be found?

Indeed. And none of Van Sara’s toys (at least those we’ve seen) are entirely unusual/never before seen.

Yes, they’re of notable quality, and compared to Guard standard issue, go beyond ‘it’s functional’.

But is that terribly notable in the grand scheme of things? The wealthy of the Imperium can get their hands on all sorts of toys standing armies can’t. Displacer Fields, Rejuv, Digital Weapons, Fancy Custom Made Stuff. And the stuff produced for the Tithe appears standardised.

In terms of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, Necromunda isn’t their planet, and owes them no particular fealty. So it seems very unlikely they’ve got the right clout and authority to simply confiscate anything. Yes, they’re certainly capable of taking it by force. But Necromunda is a loyal, highly productive world. Go after it by force, and they’d likely meet armed resistance not just from planet side, but other factions.

Better to use whatever clout they can to start infiltrating/absorbing House Van Saar into the Cult Mechanicus. No idea how long that process might take, but I suspect it’d take a long old while!

The other, unspoken possibility? The Adeptus Mechanicus know full well what’s there. And it’s flaw. If so, the simplest method is to simply leave it be, and wait for Van Saar to cripple itself, then move in on their holdings. From there, work political leverage to have the whole planet handed over as a new fiefdom, turning the Hive World to a Forge World.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed. And none of Van Sara’s toys (at least those we’ve seen) are entirely unusual/never before seen.

Yes, they’re of notable quality, and compared to Guard standard issue, go beyond ‘it’s functional’.

But is that terribly notable in the grand scheme of things? The wealthy of the Imperium can get their hands on all sorts of toys standing armies can’t. Displacer Fields, Rejuv, Digital Weapons, Fancy Custom Made Stuff. And the stuff produced for the Tithe appears standardised.

In terms of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, Necromunda isn’t their planet, and owes them no particular fealty. So it seems very unlikely they’ve got the right clout and authority to simply confiscate anything. Yes, they’re certainly capable of taking it by force. But Necromunda is a loyal, highly productive world. Go after it by force, and they’d likely meet armed resistance not just from planet side, but other factions.

Better to use whatever clout they can to start infiltrating/absorbing House Van Saar into the Cult Mechanicus. No idea how long that process might take, but I suspect it’d take a long old while!

The other, unspoken possibility? The Adeptus Mechanicus know full well what’s there. And it’s flaw. If so, the simplest method is to simply leave it be, and wait for Van Saar to cripple itself, then move in on their holdings. From there, work political leverage to have the whole planet handed over as a new fiefdom, turning the Hive World to a Forge World.

That still doesn't hold up under scrutiny since AdMech in fluff have burned entire star systems chasing the *rumor* of a STC, and if you think that the Imperial Fists having a presence on the planet might give them pause, see what happened to the Soul Drinkers. The compact the Emperor signed apparently gives them VAST authority in this matter to boot.

Depends on the star system, really.

Hive Worlds are critical to the Imperium. Burning one for a new toy would not be without repercussion. And with other avenues open, a step not required.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed. And none of Van Sara’s toys (at least those we’ve seen) are entirely unusual/never before seen.

Yes, they’re of notable quality, and compared to Guard standard issue, go beyond ‘it’s functional’.

But is that terribly notable in the grand scheme of things? The wealthy of the Imperium can get their hands on all sorts of toys standing armies can’t. Displacer Fields, Rejuv, Digital Weapons, Fancy Custom Made Stuff. And the stuff produced for the Tithe appears standardised.

In terms of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, Necromunda isn’t their planet, and owes them no particular fealty. So it seems very unlikely they’ve got the right clout and authority to simply confiscate anything. Yes, they’re certainly capable of taking it by force. But Necromunda is a loyal, highly productive world. Go after it by force, and they’d likely meet armed resistance not just from planet side, but other factions.

Better to use whatever clout they can to start infiltrating/absorbing House Van Saar into the Cult Mechanicus. No idea how long that process might take, but I suspect it’d take a long old while!

The other, unspoken possibility? The Adeptus Mechanicus know full well what’s there. And it’s flaw. If so, the simplest method is to simply leave it be, and wait for Van Saar to cripple itself, then move in on their holdings. From there, work political leverage to have the whole planet handed over as a new fiefdom, turning the Hive World to a Forge World.

That still doesn't hold up under scrutiny since AdMech in fluff have burned entire star systems chasing the *rumor* of a STC, and if you think that the Imperial Fists having a presence on the planet might give them pause, see what happened to the Soul Drinkers. The compact the Emperor signed apparently gives them VAST authority in this matter to boot.

Nothing its simple in the Imperium - however must admit I woudld have prefered the Xenos tech angle than STC

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nothing its simple in the Imperium - however must admit I woudld have prefered the Xenos tech angle than STC

Oh, no, that’s actual heresy. Also, wrong House. You want xenotech, you ask Delaque. Or, rather, make careful enquiries where a Delaque agent might overhear and leave the appropriate payment at the coordinates that mysteriously appeared on your dataslate then go to the second set of coordinates and you might find something interesting. Allegedly. Actually asking directly outright is likely to have the enforcers suddenly discovering all your underhanded deals as well as your extensive stash of Spook and stolen Juvenat drugs, even if you never actually had any to begin with.

Reading through that article to me, points to Admech already on Necromunda monitoring the House.

The equipment that the Van Sarr have is looking familiar, as in I have seen some of these things on the new Primarus, and Admech Ranger sprues.
If the timeline is on par with the 41st millennium, THIS house Van Sarr is evolved from lasers and scopes to power armor and grav technology and that the STC is degrading as it infects the house members with radiation.

THIS is an interesting spin on the OG Van Sarr of "We're technically superior, suck it." to the point where they are paying for the tech advantage with the offset of the radiation infections.

I guess those Scavy's have to come from somewhere.....

Hmmm...

At first I wasn't going to get this book, but hey- In it for a penny, in it for a pound. I'm in.

The OG Van Saar were held tech-superiority because every single one of them had to be equipped with a high-tech environment suit to survive the zones they lived in, and the poorly educated or wilfully stupid died off rapidly. Or were banished downhive once the third eye showed up, yes…
The new fluff is similar, just reverses the cause and effect; they have (flawed) high tech which contaminates their areas heavily, forcing them to use rad suits and automation to compensate.

There's some very interesting fluff in the Orlock book as well.

806.M41 Lords of Iron
Dominance of the wastes pays the House of Iron in unexpected ways. The closing centuries of the 41st Millenium see forgotten forces moving on Necromunda for the first time since the early years of Imperial rule, and House Orlock are on the frontline of many of these shadow wars and wasteland conflicts.

956.M41 Guns at Dorn
A massive master-crafted bolt pistol, stamped with a fist icon, falls into the hands of Orlock gang boss Helgan Graywater, who modifies a servo-fist so he can fire it without breaking his arm. The gun turns out to be a mixed blessing, as it earns Graywater a fearsome reputation, but eventually spells his downfall when its owner returns to reclaim its property.

996.M41 A New Iron Lord Plans, decades in the making, come to fruition, and a mysterious object found in the wastes is secretly brought to the court of Lord Morrow Orlock. Though not even his closest advisors or many children know what it is, they detect a change in their father, Morrow becoming more secretive and muttering to himself about the return of the Iron Lords.

There's also a bit about Delaque "Faceless", polymorphine enhanced killers that offed an Orlock noble and resulted in a purge of the worker caste for fear of more Faceless.

Anyone else find it highly suspicious the van saar dice/cards are still on sale on the GW site? Last time I ordered from them they cancelled my order the day after the stuff was meant to release (BB necromantic stuff). I feel like there is going to be a wave of people getting their orders of dice/cards cancelled next week.

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else find it highly suspicious the van saar dice/cards are still on sale on the GW site? Last time I ordered from them they cancelled my order the day after the stuff was meant to release (BB necromantic stuff). I feel like there is going to be a wave of people getting their orders of dice/cards cancelled next week.

Dice sold out as normal in the UK, but the cards are still available.

To anyone who enjoyed the fighter class discounts (aka equipment list inconsistencies) in the Orlock book, prepare to be disappointed. House of Artifice has perfect synchronicity of all costs for all items across all fighter classes.

This is an improvement in my opinion. And yes, the book is public on youtube. The tradition of unqiue limitations of pet herd size is however continued (irrelevant as it may be).

I saw some pages here and there, looking at the leader one, where did the combi-weapons go ?

Interesting to see lascannons available as heavy weapons, I expect we'll be seeing more weapons soon.
Likewise, Van Saar juves are the first ones to have access to a basic weapon.

Most juves are restricted to cc weapons, but van Saar being so generally awful.at it, makes sense to.let them.keepma bit of.range with the noobs. At least the noobs not haring around on hoverboards

Nope, Orlock juves get basic weapons too.

Admittedly they're sawn-off shotguns rather than anything, y'know, good.

Allright, having finished reading the book, here is a quick review (a mix of notes, improvements and errors):

- Cyberachnid: 0-2 for old champ, 0-3 for leader & new champ. Comment: This kind of micro-details makes no sense and adds zero value (most probably a mistake).
- Infra-Sight specifically only mentions Pistol, Basic abd Special weapons. Comment: What happened to Heavy? Is this an universal update to infra-sight, or a house-specific limitation to Van Saar only?
- Throwing Knives (Armoury): Str S. Comment: This is a Toxin weapon, Str S doesn't make any sense here. Are they STILL copy-pasting long outdated incorrect weapon profiles from 2-3 years ago?
- Lasgun combi (meltagun/plasmagun): This is removed and replaced by laspistol combi (meltagun/plasmagun). Comment: Was the original lasgun combi a mistake all this time? Is this an update or an error? The combi was lasgun in Gang War 3 and N18, but now in N20 HoA it is laspistol instead (with the same meltagun/plasmagun combi options).
- Cyberteknika: Pay half its cost to repair any damage (a failed 4+ roll after a lasting injury in the same body location). Comment: How to round this? An universal rounding rule (up to nearest 5 credits) would be useful (could specify any exceptions where applicable).
- Rad cannon emplacement (gang terrain): This is another botched gang terrain. So many mistakes! 1) Conflicting weapon profiles (internal and external conflicts): Page 99 (Emplacement) and page 113 (Armoury). The emplacement version's range is improved from 16"-32" to 24"-48" and gained Fixed. This is also conflicting with all previous publications. Comment: Arguably the emplacement version is a different weapon, in which case it MUST have an unique name (ID). Then Fixed would make sense. 2) Fixed & Unwieldy. Comment: Unlike all previous Fixed weapons, this one got Unwieldy. Probably forgot to remove? 3) No specification of deployment. Comment: How is this deployed? Defender's deployment zone like all other Fixed weapons?
- Energy Sink: Reduce strength within 3" (to a minimum of 1), but no minimum strength after reduction within 6". Comment: Very minor, but an attack with Melta/Power/Plasma/Las can actually be Strength 1, in which case, would it be reduced to 0 if within 6"? Probably not.
- Catallus (Alliance): Fearless Allies rule can protect a Law-Abiding gang from becoming Outlaw. Comment: Nobles can be allied with Outlaw gangs, but this rule is only useful for Law-Abiding gangs.
- Plasma Grenade: Still got Unstable (unchanged). Comment: Now included in the house equipment list... with a 35 credits discount. And even if you got money for taking it, it would still be the worst item in the whole game.
- Thermal Mines (Melta trap): Correct application of the Melta trait (specifies short and long range). Comment: Finally rules are written with an understand how Melta trait works
- 2 new scenarios. Comment: The defender can in almost all cases avoid losing and forcing a draw by voluntarily fail the bottle test and flee the battlefield.
- Explicitly specifies the exact number of fighters in the Guild
- Imperial Imposters now protects against changing Alignment (instead of becoming an Outlaw gang). Comment: This makes a lot more sense, since only Outlaw gangs can be joined by this alliance.
- Web projector (Cyberachnid) got Silent. Comment: Makes sense, better late than never I guess.
- Melta trap: No longer has Melta trait. Comment: At last!
- Increased cost of las-plas & las-melta combi. Comment: Laspistol / melta combi (previously lasgun) up 10 credits (from 120 to 130). Laspistol / plasma combi (previously lasgun) up 20 credits (from 75 to 95). A welcoming change.

There are several issues with new skills and cyberteknika (super bionics), but haven't studied them close enough to summarize yet.

Calculated the difference in page count of one rules compilation before and after this book. The result was around 11 pages worth of rules, if you organize, remove fluff and artwork. That didn't include the cards so maybe 2-3 additional pages for all the cards.

TL;DR: Do not recommend.

Baxx wrote:
TL;DR: Do not recommend.

LOL

Thanks, Baxx, always useful to know which pitfalls are likely to spring up from these books.

Yeah you may want to discuss some of these in advance. Be particularly careful with the scenarios.They are interesting and look like a lot of fun, but at the same time can be broken easily with the win condition and mechanics for voluntarily fail bottle tests and fleeing the battlefield.

On the bright side, this book has (so far) a lot less errors than expected, and probably better quality for rules writing than the other books this year!

I think the combi lasgun may well have been the mistake all this time. The model you get certainly looks more like a pistol than a basic weapon. However its irritating because I converted up my gang leader to have a lasgun...

If you're playing against me she's got a Lasgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even if you buy something better. Lasgun forever. Mwahahaha.

Teehee. I checked out the GW website,.and the writers there at least think the combi weapon is a lasgun, all looks to the contrary...

So a pistol combi with a normal gun? This has to be the first i've heard of.

Thank you Baxx for once again doing the hard work that maybe the person paid to edit the book should be doing!

Baxx wrote:
- Catallus (Alliance): Fearless Allies rule can protect a Law-Abiding gang from becoming Outlaw. Comment: Nobles can be allied with Outlaw gangs, but this rule is only useful for Law-Abiding gangs.

Just so I'm clear, Baxx - this isn't an error, just commenting that one of the rules is only useful if a gang is LA rather than Outlaw, right?

Yeah. It's not a significant part of this alliance, so can still be useful for any gang. But it was kinda odd that a Noble alliance would have any special ability favoring Law-Abiding over Outlaw. Possibly fluff related or forgetting that Noble can join any gang. On the contrary, the recidivists in this book got their similar ability fixed (prevent changing alignment, so works equally for Law-abiding and Outlaw).

On the “win by voluntary bottling”, that’s definitely something I’d be changing in a campaign.

Played one game where I was all over the Enforcers Gang, and eventually got them all down or bottled out. Yet, because he’d got a single container off the board, I lost - despite their being others my gang would surely have taken at their leisure?

Granted that’s not on my opponent - he fought hard, and didn’t game the system by pulling out following an early gain. But that mechanic just doesn’t sit right with me, as there’s no narrative reason a gang wouldn’t just recover whatever is left once their opponents are handled.

This problem in the new scenarios are pretty much the same as the universal flaw of all scenarios. If you have good sportsmanship, are you willing to stay in the battle to achieve the intended 'goal', but by doing so you sacrifice your gang and lose the battle? Or do you retreat because your gang took a beating?

There are no good solutions really. If you allow the remaining gang to automatically win (recover all remaining loot, destroy the objective etc.), then you've reduced the scenario to a shootout. Well, all scenarios are shootouts already, disguised with unachievable goals.

As an example, if your gang is geared towards shootout, which scenario would that strategy NOT work in?

That’s where suitably dense terrain comes in - otherwise a ranged Gang will always have a clear advantage over more balanced or close combat oriented Gangs.

There is a happy medium - but my experience of “wiped the floor with you, but you nicked off before I had a chance to move the crates back to my ‘home’ really irked me. Totally not my opponents fault as I said. But as a victory condition, it felt very off.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s where suitably dense terrain comes in - otherwise a ranged Gang will always have a clear advantage over more balanced or close combat oriented Gangs.

There is a happy medium - but my experience of “wiped the floor with you, but you nicked off before I had a chance to move the crates back to my ‘home’ really irked me. Totally not my opponents fault as I said. But as a victory condition, it felt very off.

Mind you this is just my experience, and Im certainly not claiming to be good cause Im really not, but the only times I've really had an issue not being able to just shoot the crap out of people with Van Saar, were missions my group played on very very tight corridored Zone Mortalis type boards.

You can always use the terrain card, but the fact is a lot of necromunda terrain out there look amazing, but simply does not work well with the game mechanics. Anything from official GW sector mechanicus terrain or 3rd party mdf towers and walkways, they so often allow to draw LOS straight through them.





So what you do when you have purchased, built and painted a table's worth of this? You can look through it like a thin slice of swiss cheeze. "Add more" is not always a practical solution.

Regardless, the universal scenario flaw has no good solution. We get more scenarios each month it seems (72 so far!), but they all have the same botched foundation. All scenarios are "shootout", and if you allow the remaining gang to claim any remaining objectives, they become even more shooty. The quickest way to drag a loot casket across the table is to wipe out the enemy.

The last pic there shows the solution. Munitorum Container style scatter. You can easily make several full pallets or piles of the crates that block LOS well, as well.as the solidity often containers themselves. The base game also comes with barricades. So the answer is definately more terrain, just not more big buildings.

That last one doesn't illustrate your point. There's absolutely loads of LoS blockage evident there. In fact I'd say it would be quite difficult to get a more obstructive terrain board than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
The last pic there shows the solution. Munitorum Container style scatter...

Silos. Pipes. Solid walls. Wreked vehicles - the existing terrain (Mechanicus themed or otherwise) offers ample solution to the problem he has described.

Various scatter terrain also provide movement challenges.

It’s not unusual to see the ground floor of a Necromunda table neglected.

As someone who spent years playing with the even thinner OG cardboard Necromunda terrain, I really don't understand the complaint that the current Sector Mechanicus stuff doesn't work with Necromunda's mechanics.

If you played for years, chances are that you played in an edition where nobody could start with BS2+? Typically combined with fast shot plasma, lascannon or plasma cannon with blast.

I'm still confused by you posting that third picture and calling out the SecMec terrain, because you're simply incorrect on that. Have you not handled the terrain in person?

Here is a copy of that picture with (some) of the "completely blocks LOS to models" terrain highlighted. I can't even see the whole board, and the LOS-blocking-factor is multiplied when a model shoots through several layers of terrain, so there are *many* possible highlights missing.

Have I handled it? Believe so:

 Flinty wrote:
The last pic there shows the solution. Munitorum Container style scatter. You can easily make several full pallets or piles of the crates that block LOS well, as well.as the solidity often containers themselves. The base game also comes with barricades. So the answer is definately more terrain, just not more big buildings.

Like thus:

Board with too many corner and LOS blocking spots just meant the infiltration bomberman tactic will prosper.

Infiltration is in itself a problem and breaks so many scenarios. It needs a simple fix like deployed as normal but get 1-2 move actions before first round or something.

Going to start a dedicated “art of terrain” type thread in the relevant sub-forum.

It’s a very interesting subject, and one where a good understanding can greatly enhance a campaign’s success. And I don’t want to derail this thread

Sounds good!

Am I being thick, or have we had no real previews this week?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Am I being thick, or have we had no real previews this week?

No, we've only had the Lore article for House of Artifice so far and that's it

Altruizine wrote:I'm still confused by you posting that third picture and calling out the SecMec terrain, because you're simply incorrect on that. Have you not handled the terrain in person?

Here is a copy of that picture with (some) of the "completely blocks LOS to models" terrain highlighted. I can't even see the whole board, and the LOS-blocking-factor is multiplied when a model shoots through several layers of terrain, so there are *many* possible highlights missing.

Baxx wrote:You can always use the terrain card, but the fact is a lot of necromunda terrain out there look amazing, but simply does not work well with the game mechanics. Anything from official GW sector mechanicus terrain or 3rd party mdf towers and walkways, they so often allow to draw LOS straight through them.


So what you do when you have purchased, built and painted a table's worth of this? You can look through it like a thin slice of swiss cheeze. "Add more" is not always a practical solution.

Regardless, the universal scenario flaw has no good solution. We get more scenarios each month it seems (72 so far!), but they all have the same botched foundation. All scenarios are "shootout", and if you allow the remaining gang to claim any remaining objectives, they become even more shooty. The quickest way to drag a loot casket across the table is to wipe out the enemy.

Actually as the person who played on that exact board, (its my friends set), you would be surprised how tough it can be to get LoS on that set, especially when you split people onto different levels.



link to twitter thread with more pics from inside to see density.


This thread also has other angles of that table posted


The terrain can work it just needs setting up more densely
I find the core issue in necro is honestly more to do with how easy it is to just ignore terrain modifiers with aim and scopes, as well as blast weapons still being pinpoint accurate and the damage they do. Along with the fast fire + overseer rules that just allow van saar to delete everything, aswell as missions limiting you to 10 models which favours small elite gangs over horde, my 10 cawdor are not the same as 10 van saar. You could end up with a like 2000 credit difference in quality between the two which gang cards really wont help balance. More punishing intervening terrain rules would likely also help instead of just being in cover, like a -1 for every terrain piece the shot passes.

Quite excited now. Element (other online stores are available) confirmed shipping of my House of Artifice.

With what the post is like at the mo, I’d be pleasantly surprised if it arrives tomorrow, but good to know it’s on the way!

Element use Amazon logistics to shop most parcels now and they are actually extremely good at getting them to you next day even during busy periods.

The more terrain, the better.

It's not important about "giving" them a LOS. You have to work that out on your own. I understand your points, but it is on the player to work out his gang's edge. Then you are going to add in high flyers, jump packs, and close quarter armies, the dynamic of the CQB environment does not offer you a free lunch.

As someone who was born in a MOUT site, and earned his stripes the hard way, I can tell you from a two way shooting range that close in environments do not provide you a clear Line of Sight over 10-20 meters.

You fight it out in 5- 20 meters, and your targets usually use booby traps, smoke, and psychological tricks like throwing kids at you, tripwires, IED's, and intentional blocking LOS as you walk into a prepped area with little more then your rather large.... Munition in your hand. and trust me, it sucks.

That board in your last photo is perfectly good as an example. On the ground though, I would add in the walls and doors from the Necromunda bulkheads and doors sets, as well as add in some smaller stacks such as 1" to 2" piles of rubble in those open spots on the grounds, as well as blocking material on the bridges and walkways.

The rad beamer of the new Spider champ is a wee bit more useful than the meme-tier rad-cannon because it had a rapid fire mode, no long range penalty, no unwieldy.

Not a rumour so much as news: James Hewitt has a bit of a musing on the way Necromunda evolved from the old Wild West vibe to the more current Private Military Contractor feel:

https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1341156317763923971

For those who don't know, James M Hewitt doesn't work anymore at GW and is managing his own lil game brand. He worked on new version of Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus and Age of Sigmar at its very beginning. He left in good terms.

Here what he said :

Late night confession:

I'm so glad I'm not working on Necromunda any more. The brief was always pulling in a direction that didn't feel like Necromunda to me, and looking at it now, it's clear I would have really struggled as time went on.

Like, the things that always attracted me to Necromunda were:
- Survival in the Underhive.
- Self-sufficient gangs, with loose affiliations to their House.
- Low-tech kit / lots of improvisation.
- How gangs interact with their turf.

This edition is clearly more about proxy wars between well-supplied paramilitary units fighting at the behest of their Houses, and to me - *personally* - that doesn't feel so much like Necromunda. It feels like a 40k skirmish game, but it doesn't feel like Necromunda.

I'm not knocking anyone who loves it as it is, or trying to claim that the current edition is wrong - just that, to me, it's not thematically recognisable as the same game I adored when I was a teenager.

And I'm fully aware that I'm probably in the wrong here.

*He then inserted a meme saying "we fear change"*

To be honest, I don't really agree with him. Mainly because old Necromunda was, at its time, a 40k skirmish game already (its rules were litterally copied-pasted from the 40k version at the time).

The game still gives a lot of survival vibe, honestly...it's easy to have a crippled gang with unlucky rolls, and the new options in the "House of" books don't help. The campaign is all focused about controlling the turf and managing its ressources. Guess the next Book of Ruin or equivalent will certainly not focus that much about true survival like it is currently, but still.

About the para-military and low tech feeling...I get what he's saying, but I'm more nuanced. It's still about gangs made of misfits and sent in the Underhive. Old Necromunda wasn't exactly lenient about military grade weapons, to be honest (laser cannons were already possible to buy, after all...). The support from the main House is, however, more clear and present. And we have a lot more of details about how they work and what are the interactions with their gangs.

I think the last House of Artifice is indeed looking like the Van Saar gangs are paramilitary high tech groups, but I believe it's more about the new design of Van Saar gangs than anything else. They still have to struggle in the Underhive to thrive, like any other. It's cool to have expensive stuff to buy, but if you don't have credits to spend, it's useless in the end.

Orlocks, Escher and Goliath don't really feel like paramilitary groups, to me. And about low tech...just the existence of new Cawdor gangs is speaking from itself, I believe. It's more about making a different design for each gang than the old generic ones using all the same kinds of weapons.

He also said that Delaques will get mecha-laser-trenchcoats in their next book, which he personally designed, and they look great.

Sometime these things aren't even set in stone. You can still see several of the gangs still look like rough and tough gangs of the underhive. Escher, etc... still look rough and ready and brawling not para-military.


I think that part of it is just that the game is evolving and advancing beyond its humble beginnings and the deeper you go the more organisation and structure you see and bring into the game. Plus the more you deepen a model line the more you'll see more organised structure and such even within rough and ready forces. Simply because the more you organise and diversify the more you have to build in structure for it to work.


Van Saar are also the techno-faction so of course they are going to appear more para-military than rough and ready brawlers. I'm sure once we see Cawdor getting a big update we'll see a different take on things.

I must admit, I mostly agree with him, as those are the things that interested me more about the setting.

Then again, I'vee been thinking for some time now about modding an "Oldcromunda" RPG as it is, probably FitD as it base, so...

The biggest problem visually is Van Saar (the BIG problem) and Delaque. I mean I don't think I need to explain why the new Van Saar clash horribly with the 'grungy gritty gangsters' aesthetic when they wouldn't look at all out of place as Tau proxies - they always looked kind out of place in their bodysuits, but the new models have really doubled down on it.

Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The rest of the line I don't think clash too much with the original aesthetic - the new Cawdor stuff I'd say actually doubles down on the grungy, downtrodden look - until we started getting Orlock Juves with jump packs which was very eyebrow raising, although that's nothing next to bloody hoverboards.

 Overread wrote:
Sometime these things aren't even set in stone. You can still see several of the gangs still look like rough and tough gangs of the underhive. Escher, etc... still look rough and ready and brawling not para-military.


I think that part of it is just that the game is evolving and advancing beyond its humble beginnings and the deeper you go the more organisation and structure you see and bring into the game. Plus the more you deepen a model line the more you'll see more organised structure and such even within rough and ready forces. Simply because the more you organise and diversify the more you have to build in structure for it to work.


Van Saar are also the techno-faction so of course they are going to appear more para-military than rough and ready brawlers. I'm sure once we see Cawdor getting a big update we'll see a different take on things.

I don't buy the "it was inevitable" argument. It isn't about whether you add things, it's about what you add and how it's presented. Expanding and diversifying the themes of the original in no way necessitated the shifts in tone, aesthetic, and concept that we've seen in the new version, there was plenty of mileage left in 80's Action Movie Meets Post Apocalypse Meets Western With A Hint Of Cyberpunk. The shifts we've seen are a result of a conscious choice to make the new game a synthesis of Necromunda and it's RT-era predecessor Confrontation because the latter better fits the tastes of the gent in charge of Specialist Games and because they think the more advanced aesthetic and militaristic tone will sell better to the same modern audience the tacticool element of the Primaris redesign was aimed at. But even if we proceed on the assumption that the broad strokes of the changes were necessary, the execution of it is still slapdash and somewhat uncaring of the implications. To go back to my personal bugbear with Nucromunda, the Van Saar STC thing is a perfect example.

If they really, really wanted to do things as they've done them, with the Van Saar actually having superior and unique tech rather than just being the guys who made the best versions of Necromunda pattern gear, they could do that without sticking their foot so far into their mouth they could kiss their own bum. They could have given them access to a set of extremely incomplete STC *printouts* that the Mechanicus is aware of and was tithed copies of as per the laws of the Imperium, and they can get away with using them by tacit agreement of "you give our agents a first look at any archeotech you find, and we'll let you keep using the borked rad-soaked gear in your gang wars so long as none of it gets out into wider circulation". Instead, they gave them a functional - if error prone - STC system, the literal Holy Grail of the Mechanicus, something large factions would burn the Imperium to the ground without a second thought to possess, and then insist they've managed to keep it secret for hundreds of years.

They're taking the whole "planetary governors are feudal overlords who can run things as they like so long as they pay their taxes" thing(forgetting/ignoring the "and obey Imperial law" bit) as carte blanche to essentially remake a little corner of Rogue Trader within the modern 40K fluff. People can like the result or not, but it was a conscious decision not merely an organic and inevitable outcome of revisiting the setting.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The new Delaque miniatures are exquisite, in my mind. Gloomy. Evocative. Creepy. Very 'Dark City', as many of us said when they were first revealed. Sadly however, they just don't look anything like Delaques.

I own pretty much every Necromunda product released (except the Dark Uprising stuff, and the newer add-on boxes), including multiples of all the new gangs. Except Delaque. I don't own a single one of those. They're just... not Delaques. Nothing has been a greater disappointment with Newcromunda than what they did to the Delaque aesthetic.

As I said - simply fantastic miniatures, and I've seen people combine them with the GSC stuff to great effect - but they just don't fit at all with the original visual style (unlike Van Saar, who you can kinda get away with).

JWBS wrote:
He also said that Delaques will get mecha-laser-trenchcoats in their next book, which he personally designed, and they look great.

I'm trying and failing to translate that into a visual image, but it sounds _terrible_.

Voss wrote:

JWBS wrote:
He also said that Delaques will get mecha-laser-trenchcoats in their next book, which he personally designed, and they look great.

I'm trying and failing to translate that into a visual image, but it sounds _terrible_.

His quote about that:

I'm just so glad that I'm not in a position where I'm having to get over that uneasy feeling and write rules for the latest Delaque Mecha-Laser-Trenchcoat or whatever.

He hasn't been involved with Necromunda since the core box and the first two Gangs of the Underhive(which he noted he wrote as one book).

Well those both sound completely different takes on something.
His actual quote to that statement about what he said.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The new Delaque miniatures are exquisite, in my mind. Gloomy. Evocative. Creepy. Very 'Dark City', as many of us said when they were first revealed. Sadly however, they just don't look anything like Delaques.

I own pretty much every Necromunda product released (except the Dark Uprising stuff, and the newer add-on boxes), including multiples of all the new gangs. Except Delaque. I don't own a single one of those. They're just... not Delaques. Nothing has been a greater disappointment with Newcromunda than what they did to the Delaque aesthetic.

As I said - simply fantastic miniatures, and I've seen people combine them with the GSC stuff to great effect - but they just don't fit at all with the original visual style (unlike Van Saar, who you can kinda get away with).

I agree on all counts. The new models themselves are fantastic, very characterful, well proportioned in what they're aiming for with the gangly, uncanny, creepy look, but that's really undermined by them making for such poor Delaque models.

 Arbitrator wrote:

I agree on all counts. The new models themselves are fantastic, very characterful, well proportioned in what they're aiming for with the gangly, uncanny, creepy look, but that's really undermined by them making for such poor Delaque models.

Yeah, the old Delaque were so well proportionned and creepy. Look at these marvels !



Seriously, they were the most ridiculous miniatures from Old Necromunda. I don't miss them at all. The new Delaques, they're clearly hiding something - not the old metal bald guys wearing trenchcoats and big glasses trying to be cool.

Are they a big change ? Hell yes. To me, it was a good change.

Honestly, I never saw the old metal Delaques as truly part of the House Delaque that was always described as shady spies working in the shadows. I consider them as the ones who are really not Delaques at all (more like imposters or wannabe trying to impress the locals). The new ones ? Now this is what I can call "Delaque".

Good for you.

The old Delaque's were gangers. Gangsters. There's even a classic piece of artwork with one basically using an Auto-gun "Tommy Gun", evocative of 1920's gangsters. The new ones are scarcely human.

Sarouan wrote:
Yeah, the old Delaque were so well proportionned and creepy. Look at these marvels !

He didn't say the old Delaques were well-proportioned and creepy. Lern 2 context.

I have no particular affection for the old sculpts and like most of the new sculpts on their own, but the more extremely divergent design directions for each gang makes it difficult to envision them all living in the same setting.

Goliath and Delaque are barely human, and the tech level of the Van Saar is way beyond what anyone would expect for the Underhive (as said, it wouldn't look out of place in the armies of several advanced Xenos factions). Orlock jump packs I can just about live with as they're clearly unreliable, and Escher zombie ladies, well, at least that lore can be ignored - it doesn't have to be visible on the models, which can just be poison-loving melee specialists (I like the notion that the resurrection aspect is just propaganda).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The new Delaque miniatures are exquisite, in my mind. Gloomy. Evocative. Creepy. Very 'Dark City', as many of us said when they were first revealed. Sadly however, they just don't look anything like Delaques.

I own pretty much every Necromunda product released (except the Dark Uprising stuff, and the newer add-on boxes), including multiples of all the new gangs. Except Delaque. I don't own a single one of those. They're just... not Delaques. Nothing has been a greater disappointment with Newcromunda than what they did to the Delaque aesthetic.

As I said - simply fantastic miniatures, and I've seen people combine them with the GSC stuff to great effect - but they just don't fit at all with the original visual style (unlike Van Saar, who you can kinda get away with).

Thissity this.

I currently play Delaque, because I like a sneaky gang, and the models are gorgeous. That they’re also easy to paint to a reasonable standard is also part of my decision.

But they’re such a massive departure from the originals - certainly the most significant departure of the original six gangs (the next being Van Saar, who I argue are superior in every way to the originals)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The new Delaque miniatures are exquisite, in my mind. Gloomy. Evocative. Creepy. Very 'Dark City', as many of us said when they were first revealed. Sadly however, they just don't look anything like Delaques.

I own pretty much every Necromunda product released (except the Dark Uprising stuff, and the newer add-on boxes), including multiples of all the new gangs. Except Delaque. I don't own a single one of those. They're just... not Delaques. Nothing has been a greater disappointment with Newcromunda than what they did to the Delaque aesthetic.

As I said - simply fantastic miniatures, and I've seen people combine them with the GSC stuff to great effect - but they just don't fit at all with the original visual style (unlike Van Saar, who you can kinda get away with).

The Delaque were the ones I was looking forward to the most, as I liked the goggles + trench-coat look they had in the old version, it was something that fit in well with the ones who were meant to be a shady untrustworthy group that relied on information and being sneaky. The new ones are great models still, but they're just not Delaque. It's like it doesn't quite understand what they were originally, it has the same basic concept of goggles + trench-coat, but it does so in a way that completely takes away that previous feel and what it suggested about them overall. - it replaced the gritty, slightly industrial/utilitarian, retro 80s sci-fi gunslinger look with one that instead gives an impression of high-tech suaveand vanity. As a higher-up or a leader for them the style could have worked great, but for the basic members it's a design that doesn't feel like an update of the original look at all but rather a complete change that only has a vague similarity, in the sense that it's still some sort of 'goggles' and some sort of 'coat', and that's it.

The models look great as a one-off as they have a very unnatural creepy feel to them, but it just doesn't fit what I liked about Delaque.

meant to be a shady untrustworthy group that relied on information and being sneaky.

Part of the problem is, of course, that this doesn't work. No one goes to the people who look like shady, untrustworthy sneaky sorts. Their information obviously won't be reliable and you very obviously can't trust them.

The old Delaque looked like a gang with a unified visual scheme (and a dislike of hair). The new models look like people who are going to backstab you at the first chance, and might as well be wearing signs that read 'Baddies.' First rule of being spies and saboteurs is not to look like one.

Also they look like cultists, which in warhammer means kill on sight.

Voss wrote:

meant to be a shady untrustworthy group that relied on information and being sneaky.

Part of the problem is, of course, that this doesn't work. No one goes to the people who look like shady, untrustworthy sneaky sorts. Their information obviously won't be reliable and you very obviously can't trust them.

Well, they wouldn't stay in business if all of their informations are wrong. And no one trusts the Delaque anyway, it was the same in old Necromunda. If you deal with them you're either desperate, pay really well, have something up your sleeves, some security or something for exchange they want.

And although they look strange, sinister and shady, they als look like they have something more useful they could tell you than a market woman or a drunken scummer.

Voss wrote:
Also they look like cultists, which in warhammer means kill on sight.

Well, as the other gangs are primitive, instable metahumanoids, sadistic tribe-women with a genetic defect, Hereteks or little more than Scavvies... I guess only the Orlocks are relatively save to be not purged under normal circumstances.

Voss wrote:

meant to be a shady untrustworthy group that relied on information and being sneaky.

Part of the problem is, of course, that this doesn't work. No one goes to the people who look like shady, untrustworthy sneaky sorts. Their information obviously won't be reliable and you very obviously can't trust them.

The old Delaque looked like a gang with a unified visual scheme (and a dislike of hair). The new models look like people who are going to backstab you at the first chance, and might as well be wearing signs that read 'Baddies.' First rule of being spies and saboteurs is not to look like one.

lol, this is pretty child-brain logic (forgivable, since many of us were children when we got into Necromunda)

The first rule of being spies and saboteurs is not to visually identify yourself as belonging to a faction known for being spies and saboteurs. It doesn't matter if you look creepy (new Delaque) or you look stupid (old Delaque), the important part is that you shouldn't all be dressed in the same outfit. And yet they are, because:

1) it's a tabletop game and visually-distinct/visually-unified factions is something players expect
2) the Delaque in your game are not spying; they're fighting

Yeah, that's exactly the point. Old Necromunda involved _gangs_, which want to be visually identifiable (but still just people).
New Necromunda is weird mono-task factions- the chem faction, the genetic engineering faction, the mining faction, the garbage faction, the tech faction and, inexplicably, the only spies faction.

_That_ is 'child brain logic.' Any real complexity is going to involve the factions fighting over all those things (except maybe the garbage), not slotting themselves into tidy niches.

Voss wrote:
Yeah, that's exactly the point. Old Necromunda involved _gangs_, which want to be visually identifiable (but still just people).
New Necromunda is weird mono-task factions- the chem faction, the genetic engineering faction, the mining faction, the garbage faction, the tech faction and, inexplicably, the only spies faction.

How is the new versions depiction of the various Houses different from the original? I was under the impression the previous version still had the different houses with very similar theming.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, that's exactly the point. Old Necromunda involved _gangs_, which want to be visually identifiable (but still just people).
New Necromunda is weird mono-task factions- the chem faction, the genetic engineering faction, the mining faction, the garbage faction, the tech faction and, inexplicably, the only spies faction.

How is the new versions depiction of the various Houses different from the original? I was under the impression the previous version still had the different houses with very similar theming.

\shrug.
The house names were the same, but the gangs were about territory, scrap and archeotech in the Underhive, away from the idea that Houses have a monopoly on specific business domains for the entire planet. The goliaths were just big brutes with a muscle theme, they weren't genetically modified flesh-slabs that rival space marines. The Van Saars were tech focused, but didn't have an STC in their basement, etc. The themes, IIRC, were more about their favored skill tables than being fundamental traits of their faction identity.

There were two descriptive paragraphs per gang in the old Necromunda rulebook.

So people don't miss old details; they miss the old absence of details.

Ditto the Delaque models. The old ones weren't designed by a disciplined genius who *decided* to keep the goggles and trenchcoats straight 1940's. Rather, nobody could sculpt and cast models that weren't that simple when they came out.

I mean, that's why people liked Boba Fett for decades. He was a cool mysterious guy in the background, who didn't do anything and wasn't anything. Now he's... a bunch of other stuff.

But with the resources at their disposal, and the simmering demand they know they can fill, 2017-2020 Games Workshop isn't capable of producing something that leaves so much to the imagination. They just aren't that company, and never will be.

You just can't accept that people like the old style, can you?

People like Delaque's that look like Delaques. They kept Cawdor, Goliath, Escher, and Orlocks looking basically the same as they were (more detailed, obviously, but that's the difference in sculpting techniques from 20 years of development). Van Saars are a departure (mostly in the hair department - no more grand beards/moustaches), but Delaques are fundamentally changed.

And you're going to sit there and tell us we're wrong for not liking it.

 Altruizine wrote:
There were two descriptive paragraphs per gang in the old Necromunda rulebook.

So people don't miss old details; they miss the old absence of details.

Ditto the Delaque models. The old ones weren't designed by a disciplined genius who *decided* to keep the goggles and trenchcoats straight 1940's. Rather, nobody could sculpt and cast models that weren't that simple when they came out.

I mean, that's why people liked Boba Fett for decades. He was a cool mysterious guy in the background, who didn't do anything and wasn't anything. Now he's... a bunch of other stuff.

But with the resources at their disposal, and the simmering demand they know they can fill, 2017-2020 Games Workshop isn't capable of producing something that leaves so much to the imagination. They just aren't that company, and never will be.

It's not about the new version having more details or the original being simpler. It gives off a completely different vibe, changing them in a way that the updates of the other Houses didn't do. The others kept the original feel for the most part, but with Delaque they only vaguely resemble the original theming in a superficial way.

Fix the inhuman seeming proportions and change the closed robe-like coat to more of a typical trenchcoat and that would already go a long way to make them feel more like Delaque. All the extra detail with them isn't the problem at all.

Weren’t they trying to capture a Dark City feel with the latest delaque?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
There were two descriptive paragraphs per gang in the old Necromunda rulebook.

So people don't miss old details; they miss the old absence of details.

Ditto the Delaque models. The old ones weren't designed by a disciplined genius who *decided* to keep the goggles and trenchcoats straight 1940's. Rather, nobody could sculpt and cast models that weren't that simple when they came out.

I mean, that's why people liked Boba Fett for decades. He was a cool mysterious guy in the background, who didn't do anything and wasn't anything. Now he's... a bunch of other stuff.

But with the resources at their disposal, and the simmering demand they know they can fill, 2017-2020 Games Workshop isn't capable of producing something that leaves so much to the imagination. They just aren't that company, and never will be.

It's not about the new version having more details or the original being simpler. It gives off a completely different vibe, changing them in a way that the updates of the other Houses didn't do. The others kept the original feel for the most part, but with Delaque they only vaguely resemble the original theming in a superficial way.

Fix the inhuman seeming proportions and change the closed robe-like coat to more of a typical trenchcoat and that would already go a long way to make them feel more like Delaque. All the extra detail with them isn't the problem at all.

I mean, the old Delaque were really boring models. Very plain looking bald dudes in badly sculpted generic trench coats. Theres nothing at all wrong with liking that, but is hard to imagine modern GW releasing something that plain and unimaginative.

And really, I personally feel like the new models fit the Delaque image much better than the old ones ever did. The new ones actually look sneaky, shadowy and deceptive. The old ones look like generic bad guys from a low budget Chuck Norris movie. I never felt like they fit their fluff.

(I an to clarify that I don't think theres anything wrong with liking these models or aesthetic. I also like them. I just think they are way to plain and generic to be a product of modern GW.)

I think that they really dropped the balll with the second wave. They should have concentrated on regular Juve and Heavies instead of giving us these flanderised unique units for each gangs (not to mention that the minis are inferior to the first wave. Very repetitive and static). Agree that the game no really longer feel like Necro. A shame since I really loved the first wave

 jake wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
There were two descriptive paragraphs per gang in the old Necromunda rulebook.

So people don't miss old details; they miss the old absence of details.

Ditto the Delaque models. The old ones weren't designed by a disciplined genius who *decided* to keep the goggles and trenchcoats straight 1940's. Rather, nobody could sculpt and cast models that weren't that simple when they came out.

I mean, that's why people liked Boba Fett for decades. He was a cool mysterious guy in the background, who didn't do anything and wasn't anything. Now he's... a bunch of other stuff.

But with the resources at their disposal, and the simmering demand they know they can fill, 2017-2020 Games Workshop isn't capable of producing something that leaves so much to the imagination. They just aren't that company, and never will be.

It's not about the new version having more details or the original being simpler. It gives off a completely different vibe, changing them in a way that the updates of the other Houses didn't do. The others kept the original feel for the most part, but with Delaque they only vaguely resemble the original theming in a superficial way.

Fix the inhuman seeming proportions and change the closed robe-like coat to more of a typical trenchcoat and that would already go a long way to make them feel more like Delaque. All the extra detail with them isn't the problem at all.

I mean, the old Delaque were really boring models. Very plain looking bald dudes in badly sculpted generic trench coats. Theres nothing at all wrong with liking that, but is hard to imagine modern GW releasing something that plain and unimaginative.

And really, I personally feel like the new models fit the Delaque image much better than the old ones ever did. The new ones actually look sneaky, shadowy and deceptive. The old ones look like generic bad guys from a low budget Chuck Norris movie. I never felt like they fit their fluff.

Waaaay worse than a Chuck Norris film. You wouldn't know the name of the lead actor in the Delaque film.

They wore a Halloween costume you could speedrun at a thrift store in four minutes.

Delaques are also a head taller than any other GW human.

Fun models, don't get me wrong. But they don't play well with others.

 streetsamurai wrote:
I think that they really dropped the balll with the second wave. They should have concentrated on regular Juve and Heavies instead of giving us these flanderised unique units for each gangs (not to mention that the minis are inferior to the first wave. Very repetitive and static). Agree that the game no really longer feel like Necro. A shame since I really loved the first wave

So much this...

The Enforcers with shields were great, but since then everyone else has been increasingly bizarre. I would not rule out Ambulls in Trenchcoats for the Delaque release.

The great thing about Necromunda of course is that of all GW’s rule sets, it’s the most adaptable, and always has been.

If you like all your bells and whistles? You can have them, using all the books to create a single legendary campaign of options and complexity.

If you want a more streamlined experience, and to avoid certain Gangs having advantages (to date, only Goliath have a model for their House Brute, for example)? You can do that to.

Me? I think I’d want to keep stuff like House Boons and Noble Alliances out of it. Maybe permanently, maybe to be introduced once a couple of campaigns have been completed, and the Gangs have had a chance to make a name and a proper, in-universe rep.

Certainly if I was to start a new campaign right this very minute? Other than the basic gang lists, I wouldn’t be allowing the contents of the House Of series, simply because as it stands it’s incomplete. There may well be issues of balance across the books - I’m not familiar enough with the game mechanics to say. If there are, I’ll be in and tinkering like a boss, because that’s why I loved being a GM for Necromunda.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Goliath and Delaque are barely human, and the tech level of the Van Saar is way beyond what anyone would expect for the Underhive (as said, it wouldn't look out of place in the armies of several advanced Xenos factions).

Quoted for truth. I can ignore much of the new background, only buy the gang boxes, and only buy Orlock, Cawdor and Escher (and to be fair Corpse Grinders and Enforcers), and I have something which I can cognise as Necromunda and 40K. Everything else is just beyond what can reasonably fit the setting for me.

The Van Saar tech isn't more advanced than imperial tech really, or at least the stuff depicted in the game isn't. they just like to.put sleek casings on their toys. Its stated in the book that they sell the weapon cores to the other houses for them to fit into different designed furniture.

They have sleeker augmetics/bionics than the norm in the underhive, but again, not out of the ordinary for high grade kit elsewhere in the imperium. The big exosuits for arkeotechs and the heavy loader suit are entirely in line with the stuff that get welded to servitors and admech combat forms, just with sleek casings rather than steampunk styling.

Even Van Saar plasma weapons are just as unreliable as the bog standard military issue. The only place it would be safe for them to roll out truly high tech unseen before technology is in the immediate vicinity of the STC core. Anywhere else and it would be stolen and re-engineered/repurposed by rival gangs/houses.

So while I agree the STC bit of the new background is a bit dumb, in practical terms, Van Saar is basically the same as their previous incarnation. A house dedicated to a higher tech approach with the technical know how to back it up.

From the House of Iron "The Twelve Daughters of Slate Merdena"
"... Perhaps most mysterious of all though is the fate of Lilian Merdena who was kidnapped by House Delaque. Slate believed for a long time that Lilian was dead, until his spies told him about a bald assassin clad in a long flowing coat, her eyes replaced by augmetics, but her face unmistakably that of his missing daughter..."

So, from that we can tell that for all that they look a bit odd, House Delaque are still something you can join (and as the most baseline of Necromundan humans).

We can tell that the "big coat and bionic eyes" look is a Delaque _Assassin_ - the current gang may be a "House hit squad" rather than a traditional gang.

The models we've seen look very, very weird. And I like them But as others have said they're the biggest divergence from OldMunda.

It's possible that Joe Delaque who runs the local gambling den is still a normal looking guy with a shaved head and a pair of goggles.

If ever there was a house to have circles within circles, and different looking sects, it's going to be Delaque.

I will laugh like a drain if Delaque Box 2 goes in reverse of the current trend of having the deeply odd stuff in the second box, and makes the juve equivalent look like Old School Delaques. Guys who haven't earned their bionic eyes and several cycles on Rimmer's Patented Stretching Machine.

I expect the champions to be the mentioned polymorphine assassins, or something equally odd.

 Graphite wrote:
I will laugh like a drain if Delaque Box 2 goes in reverse of the current trend of having the deeply odd stuff in the second box, and makes the juve equivalent look like Old School Delaques. Guys who haven't earned their bionic eyes and several cycles on Rimmer's Patented Stretching Machine.

I expect the champions to be the mentioned polymorphine assassins, or something equally odd.

We already know what Delaque are getting in their book: Mecha-Laser-Trenchcoat fighters.

I now can't stop reading that to the theme tune from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Mecha-Laser-Trenchcoat-Fighters,
Mecha-Laser-Trenchcoat-Fighters,
Assassins with the bald heads,
Trenchcoat Power!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You just can't accept that people like the old style, can you?

Just like you can't accept people saying the new Delaque fit in the new narrative for Necromunda. Because, let's be clear :

People like Delaque's that look like Delaques. They kept Cawdor, Goliath, Escher, and Orlocks looking basically the same as they were (more detailed, obviously, but that's the difference in sculpting techniques from 20 years of development).

...this is not true. Goliaths are way bigger than before, to the point they're clearly not the same as mere humans - we're talking about Space Marine material for their physics, here -, Cawdor are garbage forraging people now rather than zealots with cultist clothes (so much for the ones calling new Delaques on that matter, really), Eschers have a much more voodo / indian inspiration and orlocks...yeah, I guess they're similar indeed (though I feel like they have a much more "tough biker" feeling now than before, when they were basically generic humans with headbands).

All new miniatures are different interpretations of the old gangs, that's a fact. And the background is much more detailed than Old Necromunda, that's also a fact. Visuals are clearly different, it's not just a question of being more detailed.

Van Saars are a departure (mostly in the hair department - no more grand beards/moustaches), but Delaques are fundamentally changed.

And thank god they have changed. Their former style was making them look like nerds wearing clothes too big for them. You see them as gangsters, I see them as cartoonish wannabes trying to look tough.

And you're going to sit there and tell us we're wrong for not liking it.

You just don't want to aknowledge the new background and visuals for Delaque, that's all.

Truth is, GW made Necromunda and has all rights to change what they want in it. Old Necromunda wasn't that much detailed in the end. Now they're giving more details...meaning it doesn't fit what some players had in mind for their gangs as they were filling the gaps with their own narrative.

It's the same when they were describing more in details the universe of Warhammer Fantasy (no it wasn't made magically from the very beginning), when it became more than just a vague fantasy setting when you could play armies of dungeon and dragon miniatures. People filled the gaps at that time too, and weren't always happy with the changes afterwards. Nowadays, last edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle background is accepted as the nostalgic standard. That wasn't the case with first editions, mind you.

I think that's the real reason you don't think they're Delaque for you. It just doesn't fit the narrative you thought it was at that time, and you're not happy GW changed that.

Thing is, GW says the new Delaques are Delaque. So they're Delaque in the background. You have the right not to accept that and say they're not Delaque for you, but that doesn't make it the truth in current edition of Necromunda. Reality is they're Delaque now, no matter how hard you try to deny that.


Besides, I welcome new Mecha-Laser Trenchcoat fighters over Trenchcoat Flashing Perverts like the old metal miniatures.

Van Saar now look much more like Jes’ original sketches for them. Look at those sketches then look at the ‘90s minis then look at the current ones—you’ll see the continuity. 3D sculptors have finally caught up to 25 year old drawings.

Now where are my Van Saar Forge World teasers?!? I don’t care if I can’t buy them until 2022, I just want to see them.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Van Saar now look much more like Jes’ original sketches for them.

You mean that ?



Guess it's not that



The inspiration is indeed obvious, but to go to that :



The difference is also quite clear to me.

Unless you're talking about different artwork ? Do you have a link so that I can see what you are refering to ?

Middle one is obviously a Mark Gibbons piece. Jes' Van Saar sketches in G&E look pretty much like the original VanSaar metals, both have flat top haircut with beard and ponytail.

Worth noting that the original look was pretty close to a 1:1 ripoff of Fremen stillsuits.

Sarouan wrote:

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Van Saar now look much more like Jes’ original sketches for them.

You mean that ?
...
Unless you're talking about different artwork ? Do you have a link so that I can see what you are refering to ?

Sarcasm works better when you are actually correct...

Do you know what a sketch is? Do you know who Jes Goodwin is? Judging from the above pictures I’m guessing no.

There are no easily accessible pictures of Jes’ sketches for Van Saar. I don’t have the free time to take a picture and upload it, but for now imagine art that averages between the old art you posted and the new art. Not as chunky as the new ‘hard’ suits, but not as ‘soft’ as the old minis.

He's right though. If you can't upload a pic you can still flip the book open and see that the sketches are the same as the models that were sculpted (I imagine Goodwin sculpted them but even if he didn't, whoever did copied the sketches well).

This discussion of what changed the most from the originals in look and theme is pretty interesting as it seems, as mentioned above, that with much implied vs said in the original that what was paradigmatic for each game has a lot to do with the individual. To me the delaque fit what I took to be implied about them and I didn't find the current figures jarring. Same for the van saar. I find the look changes with Orlock standout more for me (they always looked a bit west side story or something to me back in the day). The chem fixation for esher feels a bit forced for me too. The rest seem pretty straight forward. That being said I can see how one would have a different opinion, I just don't think that opinion is perhaps as self evident as expressed.

Love the look of most of the modern gangs. Except the Delaque -they're absurdly tall and spindly. I genuinely thought they were a GSC or Drukhari unit at first glance. I'm not sure why they went for that look.

I can't wait to see Skavies and Ratskins, or Ash Wasters if they're released. Some ragged looking post apocalyptic models will be great for conversions.

Delaque design is leaning into the “possibly not actually human” angle of their background.

It’s hinted at in the existing stuff, and I for one can’t wait for their House of volume - though that’s not until July at the very earliest.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/10/sunday-preview-plague-bearers-and-ring-wearers/

Escher cats are from forgeworld?

Yes, confirmed that they are Forge World.

IMO, there was a bit of confusion in the article since they separated them from the FW stuff at large.

Underhive Informant – The latest Orlock gossip, straight from the domes - WarCom

They all look very chubby

Bugger, guess that means they'll be sold separately like the Escher champions. Perhaps the two regular gangers bundled together, but either way it'll be pricier than I hoped. :-/

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They all look very chubby

<Removed - Rule #1 please>

why not remove the unnecessary misogyny at the same time?

Think less chub and more muscle - natural muscle as opposed to whip-cord type lithe muscle that you see on say escher models.

Abaddon303 wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They all look very chubby

<Removed - Rule #1 please>

I LIKE that they look like well fed, athletically built women, it adds a great contrast to the slinky, pin up builds that Escher have.

Can't wait for them to be forty bucks each.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can't wait for them to be forty bucks each.

Fifty.

There is a Brexit on you know.

Gonna be patient until I can make a more consistent order. No point to pay shipping for just one blister of two 40k cats. The orlock girls are looking good, it's just their weapon options are boring.

I expect something like 35-40 € for the two cats. The girls, I guess they'll be 24 € per miniature or something.

beast_gts wrote:
Underhive Informant – The latest Orlock gossip, straight from the domes - WarCom

Spoiler:

They look very cool - like the melted face on the last one

Clockpunk wrote:
Bugger, guess that means they'll be sold separately like the Escher champions. Perhaps the two regular gangers bundled together, but either way it'll be pricier than I hoped. :-/

Yup, when two of these were first previewed, I wondered if they would be basic Gangers rather than Champions and hopefully priced as such too. Still not impossible that the first two won't be priced as characters, but it's not looking too promising...
Nice figures overall, not too special, but then they aren't meant to be (maybe the Champion could use a little something extra, though the bionics are reasonably visible from a distance at least).

They do look nice and would go nicely in a future poxwalker infestation scenario, but yeah, biggest worry will be the price.

warl0rdb0b wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They all look very chubby

<Removed - Rule #1 please>

I LIKE that they look like well fed, athletically built women, it adds a great contrast to the slinky, pin up builds that Escher have.

They've got a bit of a Gina Carano look to them. I dare you to go and call her chubby to her face...

At least it's a resin stub gun.

tl;dr, ugly models.
But I've been having the same feeling about all second wave of the new Necromunda models. First ones looked way better.
When I looked at their faces at first, I honestly thought those were very young looking men. But then I looked at the other parts of the models..
First one even looks like they just took the body, slapped a female-looking head on top and called it a day.

I quite like them, actually. I just don't like them quite as much as what they ask for.

I really like them, but I'm not going to pay single-model Forge World prices for what are basic cannon fodder gangers.

 Albertorius wrote:
I quite like them, actually. I just don't like them quite as much as what they ask for.

That's where I am at too. I really like them, but they do not feel very "Champion"-y...and them being from FW? It means they are unlikely to be things I'll go after--which is unfortunate because I like the ability to add some females into the otherwise male Orlock gang.

There's some cool designs in Underhive Wars that really feel like they would have been better suited for these kinds of 'reinforcement' packs.

 Mr Morden wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
Underhive Informant – The latest Orlock gossip, straight from the domes - WarCom

Spoiler:

They look very cool - like the melted face on the last one

Orlocks were always the bland faction from all the Houses and those models don't change a thing about that fact.