Ah yes, the attitude of "I built my Lord the way GW wants so I don't care if there's no option for a Combi-Weapon". Not bring critical of the profile is defending it, whether you like it or not.
I don't know, twisting other people's opinions and sentiments into self reassurance of your own stance and an attack against them is a sign that your own attitude needs a look in. Not everything is black and white and both neutrality and subjective opinions are welcome as much as criticism.
Chaos Lords can be equipped with any melee weapon, but all melee weapons now share the Accursed Weapon profile lol
GW hates converting now I guess, can't make the game "inaccessible" for the guy who just decided to start playing last week and gets confused when they see a model that isnt monopose
Chaos Lords can be equipped with any melee weapon, but all melee weapons now share the Accursed Weapon profile lol
GW hates converting now I guess, can't make the game "inaccessible" for the guy who just decided to start playing last week and gets confused when they see a model that isnt monopose
It's more that they hate 3rd parties taking their pie.
Ah yes, the attitude of "I built my Lord the way GW wants so I don't care if there's no option for a Combi-Weapon". Not bring critical of the profile is defending it, whether you like it or not.
I don't know, twisting other people's opinions and sentiments into self reassurance of your own stance and an attack against them is a sign that your own attitude needs a look in. Not everything is black and white and both neutrality and subjective opinions are welcome as much as criticism.
What's there to be neutral for with these loadouts? Please do tell.
Ah yes, the attitude of "I built my Lord the way GW wants so I don't care if there's no option for a Combi-Weapon". Not bring critical of the profile is defending it, whether you like it or not.
I don't know, twisting other people's opinions and sentiments into self reassurance of your own stance and an attack against them is a sign that your own attitude needs a look in. Not everything is black and white and both neutrality and subjective opinions are welcome as much as criticism.
What's there to be neutral for with these loadouts? Please do tell.
Could be worse. At least the Chaos Lord is still in the book?
Ah yes, the attitude of "I built my Lord the way GW wants so I don't care if there's no option for a Combi-Weapon". Not bring critical of the profile is defending it, whether you like it or not.
I don't know, twisting other people's opinions and sentiments into self reassurance of your own stance and an attack against them is a sign that your own attitude needs a look in. Not everything is black and white and both neutrality and subjective opinions are welcome as much as criticism.
What's there to be neutral for with these loadouts? Please do tell.
Could be worse. At least the Chaos Lord is still in the book?
I know this might be a joke but I am obligated as a philosophy graduate to tell everyone "It could be worse" is a terrible way of thinking and completely fallacious logic.Everything could always be worse.
Oh it was definitely a joke, more poking fun at GW's continual pruning of Chaos Lord options for the last several editions. At this rate they'll just remove him in 10th.
3rd Parties will always get their piece of the pie, I don’t get why they try and stop it. Stop removing options and pissing off your player base is a better path forward imo. That coupled with good rules and you have yourself a winning combo. 3-d printing is what GW should be worried about. This situation is analogous to Blockbuster and Netflix as I see it.
nathan2004 wrote: 3rd Parties will always get their piece of the pie, I don’t get why they try and stop it. Stop removing options and pissing off your player base is a better path forward imo. That coupled with good rules and you have yourself a winning combo. 3-d printing is what GW should be worried about. This situation is analogous to Blockbuster and Netflix as I see it.
3d printing doesn't scale like a streaming service does. That said it goes right back to 3rd party substitutes. GW has shown they don't mind bits makers or people making their own versions of stuff (good ol' legally distinct models) but when it's a direct copy or too close to GW's design they get a bit fussy.
nathan2004 wrote: 3rd Parties will always get their piece of the pie, I don’t get why they try and stop it. Stop removing options and pissing off your player base is a better path forward imo. That coupled with good rules and you have yourself a winning combo. 3-d printing is what GW should be worried about. This situation is analogous to Blockbuster and Netflix as I see it.
3d printing doesn't scale like a streaming service does. That said it goes right back to 3rd party substitutes. GW has shown they don't mind bits makers or people making their own versions of stuff (good ol' legally distinct models) but when it's a direct copy or too close to GW's design they get a bit fussy.
Except you know banning non GW stuff from offical tournaments....
Instead of restricting options, GW should put out upgrade packs like they do fur loyalist Space Marines. In a local GW that I go to, right next to each was one upgrade pack for Dark Angels and then another for Primaris Dark Angels. I don't mind those existing, but it's ridiculous that we can't at least something for Chaos (beyond the out-of-date Night Lords and Noise Marines packs). For me personally, these rules don't hurt me that much, as two of my Chaos Lords/Exalted Champions are armed with flails (which I plan to use as anything I want depending on the battle), with one of them also having a plasma pistol, and my third one has dual lightning claws. That being said, I absolutely do not like this and dread what it might mean for the future.
This news also means that the Death Guard Chaos Lord is going to arguably be the most kitbash-friendly HQ for Chaos, if these rumors are true.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Instead of restricting options, GW should put out upgrade packs like they do fur loyalist Space Marines. In a local GW that I go to, right next to each was one upgrade pack for Dark Angels and then another for Primaris Dark Angels. I don't mind those existing, but it's ridiculous that we can't at least something for Chaos (beyond the out-of-date Night Lords and Noise Marines packs). For me personally, these rules don't hurt me that much, as two of my Chaos Lords/Exalted Champions are armed with flails (which I plan to use as anything I want depending on the battle), with one of them also having a plasma pistol, and my third one has dual lightning claws. That being said, I absolutely do not like this and dread what it might mean for the future.
This news also means that the Death Guard Chaos Lord is going to arguably be the most kitbash-friendly HQ for Chaos, if these rumors are true.
Yeah I'd buy those sprues like crazy if they had them, but Chaos just gets shafted actually tbf everyone but Marines get shafted when it comes to stuff like that
blood reaper wrote: I know this might be a joke but I am obligated as a philosophy graduate to tell everyone "It could be worse" is a terrible way of thinking and completely fallacious logic.Everything could always be worse.
As a science graduate, I'm obligated to obnoxiously one-up the philosophy graduate here and point out that the laws of thermodynamics dictate that everything inevitably will be worse.
Chaos Lords can be equipped with any melee weapon, but all melee weapons now share the Accursed Weapon profile lol
GW hates converting now I guess, can't make the game "inaccessible" for the guy who just decided to start playing last week and gets confused when they see a model that isnt monopose
Isn't that just wildly better for converters? Now you can use literally anything for your weapon and stay WYSIWYG, rather than being stuck using an Axe, Fist, Sword, or Hammer.
nathan2004 wrote: 3rd Parties will always get their piece of the pie, I don’t get why they try and stop it. Stop removing options and pissing off your player base is a better path forward imo. That coupled with good rules and you have yourself a winning combo. 3-d printing is what GW should be worried about. This situation is analogous to Blockbuster and Netflix as I see it.
3d printing doesn't scale like a streaming service does. That said it goes right back to 3rd party substitutes. GW has shown they don't mind bits makers or people making their own versions of stuff (good ol' legally distinct models) but when it's a direct copy or too close to GW's design they get a bit fussy.
Except you know banning non GW stuff from offical tournaments....
Yeah, how crazy is that? Imagine if other official events started doing something similar. You'd have to play Magic with actual Magic cards. What a world that would be.
Imagine if it spread all the way to esports. You'd have to play actual league of legends in official league of legends tournaments.
Ah yes, the attitude of "I built my Lord the way GW wants so I don't care if there's no option for a Combi-Weapon". Not bring critical of the profile is defending it, whether you like it or not.
I don't know, twisting other people's opinions and sentiments into self reassurance of your own stance and an attack against them is a sign that your own attitude needs a look in. Not everything is black and white and both neutrality and subjective opinions are welcome as much as criticism.
What's there to be neutral for with these loadouts? Please do tell.
"I don't care because it doesn't impact any if my models" which is pretty much what triggered you off in the first place.
I'm not sure when having a combi plasma on your lord has won you games for example, but in the grand scheme of things it likely won't make a difference to people's games as much as being a pita for their models.
Removing options is never good but not caring or being upset about it isn't the same as defending their removal.
If you want true neutrality, I'm sure some people out there either don't give 2 craps about csm or are players who don't use lords so it has no impact. They don't need to defend or be annoyed by it, which are the 2 options you seem to think everyone must conform to.
Memnoch wrote: This codex is starting to sound like more of a mess with every release of rumours and leaks.
Havent really been paying anything to the Tyranid and Aeldari rumours threads but were they as bleak as this one is?
I have an Eldar army and my good friend plays Tyranids. Both of our codexes turned out pretty well in my opinion and the rumor threads were mostly positive things coming out with a few curveballs. Lots of anger at the Autarch which GW backpedaled on. Other than that pretty positive. The salt here is pretty deserved since losing options on figures you've had built for ages is never pleasant.
Memnoch wrote: This codex is starting to sound like more of a mess with every release of rumours and leaks.
Havent really been paying anything to the Tyranid and Aeldari rumours threads but were they as bleak as this one is?
I have an Eldar army and my good friend plays Tyranids. Both of our codexes turned out pretty well in my opinion and the rumor threads were mostly positive things coming out with a few curveballs. Lots of anger at the Autarch which GW backpedaled on. Other than that pretty positive. The salt here is pretty deserved since losing options on figures you've had built for ages is never pleasant.
To be clear; GW said the kits were compatible before the release, so they didn't really backpedal from bad design choice,
nathan2004 wrote: 3rd Parties will always get their piece of the pie, I don’t get why they try and stop it. Stop removing options and pissing off your player base is a better path forward imo. That coupled with good rules and you have yourself a winning combo. 3-d printing is what GW should be worried about. This situation is analogous to Blockbuster and Netflix as I see it.
3d printing doesn't scale like a streaming service does. That said it goes right back to 3rd party substitutes. GW has shown they don't mind bits makers or people making their own versions of stuff (good ol' legally distinct models) but when it's a direct copy or too close to GW's design they get a bit fussy.
Except you know banning non GW stuff from offical tournaments....
Movie theaters ban outside food and drinks. Not really a shock GW would ban non-GW models at GW tournaments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, do we know if the weapon restriction applies to the Terminator Lord as well? If not he might be the new utility lord option for people.
Hooo-eeee the hyperbole is off the charts tonight.
On the one hand, when it comes to many HQ units, how often do you see something other than a bolt pistol/plasma pistol these days? I would ABSOLUTELY prefer MORE options than less. Combi-weapons were awesome for a cheap ranged-lord, which was in vogue especially around 7th and early 8th iirc (cheap re-rolls to hit of 1 after all), and things like hand-flamers or even a volkite pistol like we see the Primaris Lt get yet nobody else would have been neat to see.
Again, this all stems from GW not bothering to make a new Lord, or even letting us create a Chaos Lord out of the Chosen kit.
The frustrating thing about all of this is that Chaos Marines just can't get a break. They haven't had the codex that the fans want since 3.5. We really got spoiled back then and it's been nearly two decades of blandness and odd restrictions since then. Now, the restrictions are getting worse. Even if the models are getting better, it doesn't help if people can't play the army the way they want.
Night Lords are going to be a perfect example of this. MORE stuff that affects Combat Attrition tests... I literally have a Sisters of Battle army that uses Sacred Rose that just auto-passes all combat attrition tests. That sub-faction trumps the Chaos Marine subfaction every time. In those instances, you might as well not even play Night Lords, and that's what bites.
And yeah, I bet the Terminator Lord will be the go-to for Chaos Players. Actual options! Ways to take relics that make sense!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cataphract wrote: Would it be better to wait for the World Eaters Codex at this point?
What are the rumors for Terminators?
First page of the post has them, but essentially all Terminator weapon options aside from power fist and chain fist are becoming 'accursed weapons' that are pretty much power swords with an extra attack.
I'd honestly just wait and pray that 10th edition Chaos Marines does... something.
clockworkchris9 wrote: All right roller coaster ride of a morning, I will start woth the bad news
Chaos lord
-can only have bolt or plasma pistol
I am content, 9 times out of 10 I'm taking one of these two ranged weapons, rarely bother with anything else.
Good for you. Everyone else? Not so much. What happened to "basic loadout is plasma pistol + hammer, but has access to all melee weapons"? And where's the bolt pistol coming from? The Chaos Lord kit only includes a plasma pistol. What? We're allowed to kitbash a bolt pistol, but nothing else?
I assumed he was talking only about ranged options there and that the "but has access to all melee weapons" still applies, which is why I said I'm content. It lets me keep the builds I actually used. If its really a choice of bolt pistol or plasma pistol and I'm stuck with the hammer then I'm not content anymore - that would suck.
Thanks for the clarification. That's understandable, but I think you're missing my other point: Why is it "OK" to kitbash a bolt pistol, or any melee weapon, but not combi/special weapons and jump packs? It just seems strange, as it doesn't even conform to gw's aggravating "no model, no rules" mentality. And as Kan points out:
Kanluwen wrote:Accursed weapons are supposed to be an "anything goes", were they not?
Right, Accursed Weapons are an excuse to do "whatever you want". For example, I'll definitely be giving my Chosen some Nostromon Chainglaives if it's true. But why the bizarre inconsistency? I'm thinking that a lot of this weirdness comes from these being from early playtest rules. Hopefully it'll sort out in the final version. At least I hope so.
drbored wrote:Hooo-eeee the hyperbole is off the charts tonight.
On the one hand, when it comes to many HQ units, how often do you see something other than a bolt pistol/plasma pistol these days? I would ABSOLUTELY prefer MORE options than less. Combi-weapons were awesome for a cheap ranged-lord, which was in vogue especially around 7th and early 8th iirc (cheap re-rolls to hit of 1 after all), and things like hand-flamers or even a volkite pistol like we see the Primaris Lt get yet nobody else would have been neat to see.
Again, this all stems from GW not bothering to make a new Lord, or even letting us create a Chaos Lord out of the Chosen kit.
The frustrating thing about all of this is that Chaos Marines just can't get a break. They haven't had the codex that the fans want since 3.5. We really got spoiled back then and it's been nearly two decades of blandness and odd restrictions since then. Now, the restrictions are getting worse. Even if the models are getting better, it doesn't help if people can't play the army the way they want.
Night Lords are going to be a perfect example of this. MORE stuff that affects Combat Attrition tests... I literally have a Sisters of Battle army that uses Sacred Rose that just auto-passes all combat attrition tests. That sub-faction trumps the Chaos Marine subfaction every time. In those instances, you might as well not even play Night Lords, and that's what bites.
That's where the custom traits come in. That "Unmarked" custom trait seems like the closest thing to 3.5 era Night Lords to me. If I don't see anything better, that's what I'll be using.
Just my humble opinion, but I think GW should make a "character equipment" upgrade clampack for every army that has random doodads they couldn't squeeze into the box set. Have Astra Militarum? You get a bolt pistol, plasma pistol, power sword, chain sword, bolter, power fist, and a multi-part piece that can be a storm bolter or any combi weapon. Viola', there is now a model you can sell a TON of, players have tons of options, and the game isn't stale.
clockworkchris9 wrote: All right roller coaster ride of a morning, I will start woth the bad news
Chaos lord
-can only have bolt or plasma pistol
I am content, 9 times out of 10 I'm taking one of these two ranged weapons, rarely bother with anything else.
Good for you. Everyone else? Not so much. What happened to "basic loadout is plasma pistol + hammer, but has access to all melee weapons"? And where's the bolt pistol coming from? The Chaos Lord kit only includes a plasma pistol. What? We're allowed to kitbash a bolt pistol, but nothing else?
I assumed he was talking only about ranged options there and that the "but has access to all melee weapons" still applies, which is why I said I'm content. It lets me keep the builds I actually used. If its really a choice of bolt pistol or plasma pistol and I'm stuck with the hammer then I'm not content anymore - that would suck.
Thanks for the clarification. That's understandable, but I think you're missing my other point: Why is it "OK" to kitbash a bolt pistol, or any melee weapon, but not combi/special weapons and jump packs? It just seems strange, as it doesn't even conform to gw's aggravating "no model, no rules" mentality. And as Kan points out:
No idea, Im just glad I don't need to shelve/bin a bunch of my minis that would no longer be wysiwyg otherwise, and thats basically all what my position here boils down to.
Everything else is way beyond my paygrsde. Apparentlyy that makes me a white knight for GW or something, even though the reality is Im really sitting here hoping these rumors aren't true and they aren't going to shaft CSM yet again for another vedition.
H.B.M.C. wrote: One of the first Chaos Lord models I got was this guy:
(not my mini)
Sucks he's completely illegal I guess...
Maybe they'll keep the extra options in Legends for people who don't play GT missions. Not much of a hope, but it'd be nice if those old options didn't go away completely.
No, it isn't much hope. Especially considering the sheer arbitrary nature of these loadout limitations. Here's a link to the "official" Chaos Lord kit:
Look at the sprue. The plasma pistol and thunder hammer are both molded to the arms. Arming that model with a bolt pistol, or "other melee weapons" would require either cutting off the standard weapons or kitbashing with another kit. There is absolutely no reason to remove any of the current options and still keep the options for a bolt pistol and other melee weapons. It would have nothing to do with either "no model, no rules" or WYSIWYG.
Gadzilla666 wrote: No, it isn't much hope. Especially considering the sheer arbitrary nature of these loadout limitations. Here's a link to the "official" Chaos Lord kit:
Look at the sprue. The plasma pistol and thunder hammer are both molded to the arms. Arming that model with a bolt pistol, or "other melee weapons" would require either cutting off the standard weapons or kitbashing with another kit. There is absolutely no reason to remove any of the current options and still keep the options for a bolt pistol and other melee weapons. It would have nothing to do with either "no model, no rules" or WYSIWYG.
Legends has been the home of a fair bit of "no longer available" model options.
That said, I've been thinking about double dipping between HH and CSM with Word Bearers (I must admit they look their best in MkIV, though I'm curious to see what beakie Word Bearers look like) but that hampers some of the creative fun you could have between the two.
At least Erebus makes for a sweet Dark Apostle model?
Gadzilla666 wrote: No, it isn't much hope. Especially considering the sheer arbitrary nature of these loadout limitations. Here's a link to the "official" Chaos Lord kit:
Look at the sprue. The plasma pistol and thunder hammer are both molded to the arms. Arming that model with a bolt pistol, or "other melee weapons" would require either cutting off the standard weapons or kitbashing with another kit. There is absolutely no reason to remove any of the current options and still keep the options for a bolt pistol and other melee weapons. It would have nothing to do with either "no model, no rules" or WYSIWYG.
Legends has been the home of a fair bit of "no longer available" model options.
That said, I've been thinking about double dipping between HH and CSM with Word Bearers (I must admit they look their best in MkIV, though I'm curious to see what beakie Word Bearers look like) but that hampers some of the creative fun you could have between the two.
At least Erebus makes for a sweet Dark Apostle model?
You're missing my point. There is absolutely no logical reason for these particular options. It doesn't conform to either "no model, no rules" or WYSIWYG. It's entirely arbitrary. And I'm wondering if it's because these rumours are coming from EARLY PLAYTEST RULES , as I keep trying to remind everyone. Maybe they hadn't figured out exactly how they wanted to handle Chaos Lords and Sorcerers yet (separate datasheets for PA, PA+jump pack, and Terminator armour?). But if this does happen, we shouldn't just accept it and use Legends rules or play HH. We should do exactly what the Eldar players did when gw screwed up the options for the Autarch: complain. Loudly and in great numbers. If they can fix Autarchs, then they can fix Chaos Lords and Sorcerers.
H.B.M.C., I completely forgot about that guy! I still have my version with the axe.
I really hope this was just an error forgetting to mention the ranged option in the leak or w/e (at this point I'm not holding out hope that these are wrong, they're too believable). Obsidius Mallex (sp?) is just a terrible model to have as the only lord. Besides his stupid name, he's just not a well-sculpted character (the tubes make him look like he's got a double chin), and his loadout and look really don't fit a lot of the legions...
Btw did GW actually update Legends when they reduced options in new Codizes or is it still the same it was at the beginning of 9th?
For me personally there's no difference between a unit in legends or in the Codex, but I don't know if I can trust GW to keep legends updated...
Rydria wrote: Not having to pay for mark of slaanesh, as emperor’s children is super nice.
Indeed. With Noise Marines being "GOOD" and Excruciating Frequencies going to MW, along with Honor the Prince remaining in some fashion we'll be doing alright for Chaos at least.
I can't wait to see the rules for Noise Marines i wonder if they kept music of the apocalypse, or have been changed.
Honor the prince remaining the same, is amazing for us makes the theoretical Terminator squad with 3 power fist. 1 chain fist, duel accursed weapon per 5 a great bomb, or if you want to go cheaper a squad of Warptalons
Dudeface wrote: Removing options is never good but not caring or being upset about it isn't the same as defending their removal.
"Don't care. Got mine." is a hair's breadth away from defending the removal.
Indifference is defending, full stop
People who don't agree with your views because they don't have a stake in the outcome are automatically the enemy? Indifference is often the result of people being in no way obligated to invest time or attention in a topic.
Dudeface wrote: Removing options is never good but not caring or being upset about it isn't the same as defending their removal.
"Don't care. Got mine." is a hair's breadth away from defending the removal.
Indifference is defending, full stop
People who don't agree with your views because they don't have a stake in the outcome are automatically the enemy? Indifference is often the result of people being in no way obligated to invest time or attention in a topic.
And yet they are interested enough to come into this thread and go "Ha! I don't care, I've got mine, suckers! "
Yeah, at this point this weird side-argument is really just a cringey slap-fest, let's move on.
Here's a Chaos Lord that's much more recent that is now illegal:
LOTS of people got this Chaos Lord. Plastic, power sword, plasma pistol, neat stuff. Now? Well, I guess you can put him in your Chosen squad or something...
I wonder more and more about the validity of the rumours. Some things are already contradictory, like disco lord who was said to have no changes in first rumour drop. Also it is just weird that we see immense power creep in new books and suddenly CSM have a balancing that matches early 9th Ed instead of that ,lategame madness‘ that we have in current releases.
But to be fair, it might be denial as well
Edit: A merged weapon option for different sculpts sounds actually reasonable. Rolling a squad with 5 different options takes forever and might often end up not worth it. Will reduce the ,let me check which guys are in range and let me search all that weapon options. I guess most people dislike the profile. As for the Lord, it seems fine that he has an united profile for the meele weapon. This cleans up the mess of deamonic weapon upgrades. I mostly dislike the fact that the rumour mentioned that weapon profiles are already a mess
I just hope that the overall book balance isn’t smurfed on release. It is already a mess to play Primaris and Necrons as many newer books just table you on a casual basis. I would consider dropping the hobby when the newest army I build would be messed up in terms of balance on release
It could be they balanced the CSM codex against the early 9e codex (specifically Marines) because they planned on it releasing earlier but that plan was delayed due to some behind the scenes reason.
The Red Hobbit wrote: It could be they balanced the CSM codex against the early 9e codex (specifically Marines) because they planned on it releasing earlier but that plan was delayed due to some behind the scenes reason.
Yeah but according to rumours the book seems to be in playtesting now?
Dudeface wrote: Removing options is never good but not caring or being upset about it isn't the same as defending their removal.
"Don't care. Got mine." is a hair's breadth away from defending the removal.
Indifference is defending, full stop
People who don't agree with your views because they don't have a stake in the outcome are automatically the enemy? Indifference is often the result of people being in no way obligated to invest time or attention in a topic.
Yes, actually. They had enough to chime in "don't care because MY model is safe" and literally disregard the consequences of not calling out GW on its actions.
So I repeat, what is the actual middle ground for this Chaos Lord entry?
kodos wrote: if the book is in playtesting now, it would be >6 months away
more like the rumours are from different play test version and it is unclear which one made it to print
Or that these particular playtest rules are from an old set of playtest rules, which the leaker has said themself. A lot could have changed since these were last playtested.
Dudeface wrote: Removing options is never good but not caring or being upset about it isn't the same as defending their removal.
"Don't care. Got mine." is a hair's breadth away from defending the removal.
Indifference is defending, full stop
People who don't agree with your views because they don't have a stake in the outcome are automatically the enemy? Indifference is often the result of people being in no way obligated to invest time or attention in a topic.
Yes, actually. They had enough to chime in "don't care because MY model is safe" and literally disregard the consequences of not calling out GW on its actions.
So I repeat, what is the actual middle ground for this Chaos Lord entry?
I run the 3rd ed metal powerfist lord at the top of this page, with a jump pack, combi melta and the fist is replaced with a power sword. He is not legal for me any more. This is not overly good for some others. I am not upset that I need to change his loadout, I am not offended and feel no obligation to "call out GW". How do I fit into your views?
Why is it "OK" to kitbash a bolt pistol, or any melee weapon, but not combi/special weapons and jump packs? It just seems strange, as it doesn't even conform to gw's aggravating "no model, no rules" mentality.
The rumours did say there was still a jump pack relic (I think it matches the one that turned up in Vigilus Ablaze?). As a relic, it's pretty meh, but it IS a jump pack for you to slap onto a Lord.
Why is it "OK" to kitbash a bolt pistol, or any melee weapon, but not combi/special weapons and jump packs? It just seems strange, as it doesn't even conform to gw's aggravating "no model, no rules" mentality.
The rumours did say there was still a jump pack relic (I think it matches the one that turned up in Vigilus Ablaze?). As a relic, it's pretty meh, but it IS a jump pack for you to slap onto a Lord.
unless of course the stipulations dictate, (what they will) that a specific piece of equipment is needed to do so .
It's worse than a cop-out, because it allows some players to just tell you that everything is fine and if you don't like it go play count as, whilest others will abuse certain combinations and or price point of these never adapted units anymore.
Simply put, due to the no touch up and horrific design it is highly unlikely that anyone will be able to play them in about half an edition something enters legends.
Its also really low how some factions got a lot of "no modells no rules" not applied to them, whilest other factions got completely curbed into legends.
Meanwhile CSM players lost literally ALL daemonic mounts, biker lords, etc.
From the further lord change alone i lost: 4 Chaos lords if it is indeed the case that we don't get combi weapons for them anymore.
Why is it "OK" to kitbash a bolt pistol, or any melee weapon, but not combi/special weapons and jump packs? It just seems strange, as it doesn't even conform to gw's aggravating "no model, no rules" mentality.
The rumours did say there was still a jump pack relic (I think it matches the one that turned up in Vigilus Ablaze?). As a relic, it's pretty meh, but it IS a jump pack for you to slap onto a Lord.
The rumours say that it's only available to a Daemon Prince.
Dudeface wrote: Removing options is never good but not caring or being upset about it isn't the same as defending their removal.
"Don't care. Got mine." is a hair's breadth away from defending the removal.
Indifference is defending, full stop
That's not how language works. Indifference is passive, and defending is active.
Go away, troll.
It's not passive to specifically go out of your way to go into a thread about something and announce just how much you don't care to everyone and how indifferent you are, and how much it doesn't affect you.
I never said it wasn't. I just said if this is true (and we haven't seen actual codex page leaks like past codex rumor dumps so who knows) I'd hope they at least keep the option in legends for the more casual players.
...Yeah, how crazy is that? Imagine if other official events started doing something similar. You'd have to play Magic with actual Magic cards. What a world that would be.....
40k 9th Edition and it's limited weapn options is a travesty, especial when you look on the HH leaks and the "classic" 7th Edition loadout for all those Army options...
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: It's not passive to specifically go out of your way to go into a thread about something and announce just how much you don't care to everyone and how indifferent you are, and how much it doesn't affect you.
What you describe here is literally threadcrapping, which well-moderated forums don't permit. People can decide for themselves whether this forum qualifies there.
I will say, though, that the obvious solution to GW's current idiotic no-model-no-rules-no-options nonsense is for the community to go back to treating GW's 'rules' as guidelines and be willing to modify them to suit their particular play-group's needs, rather than treating them as holy writ.
"Hey, my Chaos Lord has a combi-flamer because I built him back when that was a legal option. Do you want me to play him WYSIWYG or closest now-legal option?"
"WYSIWYG is easier to deal with. You've used the old points value from back when it was legal? OK, let's get on with the game!"
That's pretty much how it would go in my group. If you've got an awesome-looking conversion in your army, we will find a way to make it 'legal', no matter what GW (or the international tourney circuit ) says.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: It's not passive to specifically go out of your way to go into a thread about something and announce just how much you don't care to everyone and how indifferent you are, and how much it doesn't affect you.
What you describe here is literally threadcrapping, which well-moderated forums don't permit. People can decide for themselves whether this forum qualifies there.
I will say, though, that the obvious solution to GW's current idiotic no-model-no-rules-no-options nonsense is for the community to go back to treating GW's 'rules' as guidelines and be willing to modify them to suit their particular play-group's needs, rather than treating them as holy writ.
"Hey, my Chaos Lord has a combi-flamer because I built him back when that was a legal option. Do you want me to play him WYSIWYG or closest now-legal option?"
"WYSIWYG is easier to deal with. You've used the old points value from back when it was legal? OK, let's get on with the game!"
That's pretty much how it would go in my group. If you've got an awesome-looking conversion in your army, we will find a way to make it 'legal', no matter what GW (or the international tourney circuit ) says.
Careful, it's almost like you're promoting free thought there. But do agree, and as mentioned before, if the 1-2 combi weapons people just lost access to make that much of annimpact on how the army plays, I'd be amazed.
The Red Hobbit wrote: It could be they balanced the CSM codex against the early 9e codex (specifically Marines) because they planned on it releasing earlier but that plan was delayed due to some behind the scenes reason.
They could have started working on it 2 weeks ago and they would be balancing it against the Space Marine codex. Anyone expecting the Chaos Space Marine codex to be stronger than the Space Marine codex is going to be sorely disappointed. It happened once before and it will never happen again. The best CSM can hope for is that they're in the starter box so their codex can release at the around the same time as SM at the beginning of the edition rather than at the end after an edition's worth of powercreep. Otherwise, better luck next edition.
The Red Hobbit wrote: It could be they balanced the CSM codex against the early 9e codex (specifically Marines) because they planned on it releasing earlier but that plan was delayed due to some behind the scenes reason.
Yeah but according to rumours the book seems to be in playtesting now?
Eh no. If it was playtesting now it would be late 2022/early 2023 release. We know it's coming soon.
There wouldn't be time for physical products to come if it was playtesting now...
Leadtimes. Leadtimes. Leadtimes. These things are done well ahead.
He has to be, nobody could be that bloody dense in real life, right? Social justice warriors are one thing, but prattling on in some sort of justice crusade over toy soldiers is really taking the cake. What exactly are "the consequences of not calling out GW on its actions" that I am disregarding? As if my discontented bleating on an obscure internet forum that GWs own design staff have disparaged in the past for being an example of the worst excesses of the fanbase will change anything in a book that has already gone to print. Like, oh no - GW is going to publish yet another gakky substandard low quality rules publication, the world is ending - not like that isn't usually the case to begin with, not like there aren't a dozen other miniatures games out there that I can and do invest into/play regularly.
The part that really gets me is that apparently being relieved that bolt pistols are an option (when the rumor posted just a couple pages prior was that it was plasma pistols only) and that I haven't had yet another set of miniatures completely invalidated and gak-canned by GW somehow translates to "indifference" or, as Wha-mu has been repeatedly vomiting all over his keyboard, "feth yours, I got mine". Its not like I wasn't complaining about how my exalted champions have been rendered entirely useless by these changes just a dozen or two pages ago or anything. Its not like I don't own literal armies worth of miniatures that are literally unplayable because they don't have valid rules anymore or anything.
Dudeface wrote: Removing options is never good but not caring or being upset about it isn't the same as defending their removal.
"Don't care. Got mine." is a hair's breadth away from defending the removal.
Indifference is defending, full stop
That's not how language works. Indifference is passive, and defending is active.
Go away, troll.
It's not passive to specifically go out of your way to go into a thread about something and announce just how much you don't care to everyone and how indifferent you are, and how much it doesn't affect you.
Explain to me, in exact detail, how I "specifically went out of my way to come into this thread" when I have been an active participant in this thread and in this discussion, posting regularly dozens of times, since the very beginning of this thread. Seriously, I'll wait. I have been posting in this thread *literally* since page 1 - my first post in this thread was *before* yours - by a full page. I've made over 30 posts in this thread by my count, I would imagine I am one of the most frequent posters here - so uhh, how am I going out of my way again?
While you're at it, I'd love for you to show me where I indicated that I don't care, because all I said was that I am "content", i.e. relieved, that I can still use my lord minis - and thats really not the same thing.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: It's not passive to specifically go out of your way to go into a thread about something and announce just how much you don't care to everyone and how indifferent you are, and how much it doesn't affect you.
What you describe here is literally threadcrapping, which well-moderated forums don't permit. People can decide for themselves whether this forum qualifies there.
I will say, though, that the obvious solution to GW's current idiotic no-model-no-rules-no-options nonsense is for the community to go back to treating GW's 'rules' as guidelines and be willing to modify them to suit their particular play-group's needs, rather than treating them as holy writ.
"Hey, my Chaos Lord has a combi-flamer because I built him back when that was a legal option. Do you want me to play him WYSIWYG or closest now-legal option?"
"WYSIWYG is easier to deal with. You've used the old points value from back when it was legal? OK, let's get on with the game!"
That's pretty much how it would go in my group. If you've got an awesome-looking conversion in your army, we will find a way to make it 'legal', no matter what GW (or the international tourney circuit ) says.
Careful, it's almost like you're promoting free thought there. But do agree, and as mentioned before, if the 1-2 combi weapons people just lost access to make that much of annimpact on how the army plays, I'd be amazed.
No, the loss of combi-weapons for our characters won't have much of an impact on how our armies play, but the loss of jump packs absolutely will. Especially for Legions that are focused on jump infantry.
AL dump this morning
AL strats
-the sabotage strat is now auto explode
-fall back and shoot
-12" deepstrike denial
-shoot a unit that deepstrikes nearby
-forward operatives, pregame move
-conceal is replaced with untargetable beyond 12"
ALWLT -sniper warlord trait
-redeploy for up to 3.units
-a cultist buff
-i am alpharius is still there
No news on the other warlord traits
And for relics
-one turn for battle ennemy strats cost +1cp on a 4+ (still there)
- power sword with dd3 and causes -1 to hit (GONE)
-bolt weapons wounds on +2(except vehicules and titanic), ignores cover (still there)
-the combi bolter relic must be gone since no way foe HQ to get combis (GONE, no surprises there)
-+2 armor, and transhuman
- armor with 3d6 movemebt that can "ghostwalk" through units (still there)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Prayers
-basic prayer still reroll all hits in melee
-+1 to wound in melee
- -1to hit (REPLACED) Now it is 1-3 hits always fail, no rerolls allowed
- 6" aura when doing leadership test roll 2d6 discard the highest & fail action & fight last
-+1 to hit (gone)
-5++ buble is gone you said (gone)
-priest het +2a(was +3) and ap2 (was ap4) on weapon
And for god specifics
-+d3 wounds (gone)
-advance and charge (still there)
-S+2 (gone)
-T+2 (gone)
Rydria wrote: Not having to pay for mark of slaanesh, as emperor’s children is super nice.
Indeed. With Noise Marines being "GOOD" and Excruciating Frequencies going to MW, along with Honor the Prince remaining in some fashion we'll be doing alright for Chaos at least.
I can't wait to see the rules for Noise Marines i wonder if they kept music of the apocalypse, or have been changed.
Honor the prince remaining the same, is amazing for us makes the theoretical Terminator squad with 3 power fist. 1 chain fist, duel accursed weapon per 5 a great bomb, or if you want to go cheaper a squad of Warptalons
I imagine music of the apocalypses stays but gets cleaned up to not be able to attack within 1". EC have had some sort of fight/shoot on death since "Traitor Legions" so hopefully it stays as its fluffy. A EC Terminators assault from deep strike is be nuts: all those fists hitting on a 2+, and generating +2 hits on 6's turn 3. It only gets worse if Excess of Violence is still a thing. The only real concern is our Warlord Traits and Relics. Sure a lot of them are barely an upgrade; but things like: Intoxicating Elixir, Remnant of the Maraviglia, Raiment Repulsive, and Loathsome Grace would be painful to lose.
A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
Memnoch wrote: This codex is starting to sound like more of a mess with every release of rumours and leaks.
Replace "codex" with "edition" and you have 40k in a nutshell right now
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I want GW to just increase how many points a Guardsman spends to get a flamer instead of going full Kharn on unit options.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
That's the nature of the beast. I understand your feelings, they're likely the feelings of most of the community. But as I said, the solution isn't simple. Balancing 2000+ data sheets over 6-10 different games, many with dozens of options of their own is going to be next to impossible for GW, as they are already not that great at game balance to begin with. With all the screaming for game balance to be a priority, they're making the best choice they have, which is to reduce the complexity and scope of the game, an easy way to do that is remove options.
For all the complaining I've been seeing about the loss of the Jump pack Chaos lord, I can honestly tell you that having been a part of the hobby for nearly 8 years, and having played in four different US states during that time, I've never seen a jump pack lord on the table that wasn't a Blood Angel. People obviously have them and use them, but they're not that popular and that is something that I am sure GW market research has shown. Axing weaker or limited things is the easiest solution to them.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
Large number of units? Mutilators? They're the only ones removed from the game, some options are being removed for foot lords. Not sure I'd agree it's sterilisation of the army. They removal of cult troops I can see as a problem but I sort of understand that might be the first step to truly separating out the god specific legions, they don't want overlapping unit entries where possible.
Memnoch wrote: This codex is starting to sound like more of a mess with every release of rumours and leaks.
Replace "codex" with "edition" and you have 40k in a nutshell right now
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I want GW to just increase how many points a Guardsman spends to get a flamer instead of going full Kharn on unit options.
I can't help you there as I don't understand the math of competitive wargaming. If they can do that and it will actually matter, then go for it. But I suspect given all the complaints about points over the last 2-3 years, that just isn't a viable solution. Look at the mess 40K points are in now because of all the push back. Points are everywhere and it's really hard to tell if a book is current or not anymore due to that.
Standard spells
-warptime still there but no charge
-+1 to hit
-no invul on 1 ennemy unit
- 1 model get s+2 & +1a
-3d6 each 4+ = 1mw
-if d6 is bigger then T, then d3 MW and units within 6" take 1mw on a 4+
clockworkchris9 wrote: Standard spells
-warptime still there but no charge
-+1 to hit
-no invul on 1 ennemy unit
- 1 model get s+2 & +1a
-3d6 each 4+ = 1mw
-if d6 is bigger then T, then d3 MW and units within 6" take 1mw on a 4+
Big nerf on Gift ( and warptime ). Better have a low ass casting cost.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
This is absurd. Balance vs options isn't an absolutist binary that leads to a free for all (let alone S8 flamers on guard, which isn't even an 'options' problem). That isn't even vaguely in the realm of anything, and isn't going to get there because chaos lords keep access to the standard array of rifles, pistols and melee weapons.
Balance isn't some magical mystery of the ages- its about being 'good enough' to go on with. Something they're willing to do with most codex releases (though some of the recent errors makes me think they've abandoned part of their process, as there is a huge difference between this faction wins 5% more often and 20% more often), and twice over with loyalist marines, but when chaos wanders around, suddenly it all becomes an issue. Options disappear and everything (bizarrely) becomes even more regimented.
----
@arcanum - same. Accursed weapons would be fine if the whole edition was operating that way from the start. That they're inconsistently applied externally and internally is just bewildering.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Standard spells
-warptime still there but no charge
-+1 to hit
-no invul on 1 ennemy unit
- 1 model get s+2 & +1a
-3d6 each 4+ = 1mw
-if d6 is bigger then T, then d3 MW and units within 6" take 1mw on a 4+
I played against a beefier version of d6 vs T used by Tyranids. It's a fun concept, but the CSM version I don't think I'd use it unless you're dealing with a horde of Guardsmen or Gaunts.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
This is absurd. Balance vs options isn't an absolutist binary that leads to a free for all (let alone S8 flamers on guard, which isn't even an 'options' problem). That isn't even vaguely in the realm of anything, and isn't going to get there because chaos lords keep access to the standard array of rifles, pistols and melee weapons.
Balance isn't some magical mystery of the ages- its about being 'good enough' to go on with. Something they're willing to do with most codex releases (though some of the recent errors makes me think they've abandoned part of their process, as there is a huge difference between this faction wins 5% more often and 20% more often), and twice over with loyalist marines, but when chaos wanders around, suddenly it all becomes an issue. Options disappear and everything (bizarrely) becomes even more regimented.
----
@arcanum - same. Accursed weapons would be fine if the whole edition was operating that way from the start. That they're inconsistently applied externally and internally is just bewildering.
its also funny when some of the factions it doesn't really apply do get even more options on average in an edition than some factions got in decades
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
I'm for consolidation of weapon profiles, not weapon options. Huge difference between a Bolt Pistol and Combi-Bolter vs Power Sword and Power Axe.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The bolter thing for the new Primaris was really baffling for me. When they first came out, everyone swore it was the rifle that was best. Then a new codex and everyone wanted the LMG variant. I don't think anyone ever took the heavy ones because the squad needs to be mobile. It's just weird as heck because the variants all felt like an amalgamation of different ideals all slapped onto one kit because reasons.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
This is absurd. Balance vs options isn't an absolutist binary that leads to a free for all (let alone S8 flamers on guard, which isn't even an 'options' problem). That isn't even vaguely in the realm of anything, and isn't going to get there because chaos lords keep access to the standard array of rifles, pistols and melee weapons.
Balance isn't some magical mystery of the ages- its about being 'good enough' to go on with. Something they're willing to do with most codex releases (though some of the recent errors makes me think they've abandoned part of their process, as there is a huge difference between this faction wins 5% more often and 20% more often), and twice over with loyalist marines, but when chaos wanders around, suddenly it all becomes an issue. Options disappear and everything (bizarrely) becomes even more regimented.
----
@arcanum - same. Accursed weapons would be fine if the whole edition was operating that way from the start. That they're inconsistently applied externally and internally is just bewildering.
Clearly it isn't when the rules writers haven't been able to do it. The rules for Warhammer games are an afterthought, it's pretty clear by this point that they do not put any reasonable level into writing editions and are only fishing for the next book sale.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
This is me explaining what I *think* the GW rules team is doing, and what they *might* give as an answer as to why they're doing it.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
I'm for consolidation of weapon profiles, not weapon options. Huge difference between a Bolt Pistol and Combi-Bolter vs Power Sword and Power Axe.
So you are unironically defending the removal of options that you don't like.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
I'm for consolidation of weapon profiles, not weapon options. Huge difference between a Bolt Pistol and Combi-Bolter vs Power Sword and Power Axe.
So you are unironically defending the removal of options that you don't like.
I didn't remove any options though. Removing Combi-Bolter is removing an option. Saying all Power Weapons are the same is not. So if they said Lords could only have Thunder Hammers I would give the same argument.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Standard spells
-warptime still there but no charge
-+1 to hit
-no invul on 1 ennemy unit
- 1 model get s+2 & +1a
-3d6 each 4+ = 1mw
-if d6 is bigger then T, then d3 MW and units within 6" take 1mw on a 4+
No big surprises here. Still, a bit sad that "worse smite" seems to be a gift that keeps on giving for designers.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
That's the nature of the beast. I understand your feelings, they're likely the feelings of most of the community. But as I said, the solution isn't simple. Balancing 2000+ data sheets over 6-10 different games, many with dozens of options of their own is going to be next to impossible for GW, as they are already not that great at game balance to begin with. With all the screaming for game balance to be a priority, they're making the best choice they have, which is to reduce the complexity and scope of the game, an easy way to do that is remove options.
For all the complaining I've been seeing about the loss of the Jump pack Chaos lord, I can honestly tell you that having been a part of the hobby for nearly 8 years, and having played in four different US states during that time, I've never seen a jump pack lord on the table that wasn't a Blood Angel. People obviously have them and use them, but they're not that popular and that is something that I am sure GW market research has shown. Axing weaker or limited things is the easiest solution to them.
You haven't seen a Jump Lord, in eight years. Not one. Only foot lords, and Terminator Lords. BULL. You're a day early, buy a calendar.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
I'm for consolidation of weapon profiles, not weapon options. Huge difference between a Bolt Pistol and Combi-Bolter vs Power Sword and Power Axe.
So you are unironically defending the removal of options that you don't like.
I didn't remove any options though. Removing Combi-Bolter is removing an option. Saying all Power Weapons are the same is not. So if they said Lords could only have Thunder Hammers I would give the same argument.
"All ranged weapons on chaos lords are now 'adjective boltnoun guns' range 12" pistol 1 s4 ap- d1" solved all the problems.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
That's the nature of the beast. I understand your feelings, they're likely the feelings of most of the community. But as I said, the solution isn't simple. Balancing 2000+ data sheets over 6-10 different games, many with dozens of options of their own is going to be next to impossible for GW, as they are already not that great at game balance to begin with. With all the screaming for game balance to be a priority, they're making the best choice they have, which is to reduce the complexity and scope of the game, an easy way to do that is remove options.
For all the complaining I've been seeing about the loss of the Jump pack Chaos lord, I can honestly tell you that having been a part of the hobby for nearly 8 years, and having played in four different US states during that time, I've never seen a jump pack lord on the table that wasn't a Blood Angel. People obviously have them and use them, but they're not that popular and that is something that I am sure GW market research has shown. Axing weaker or limited things is the easiest solution to them.
You haven't seen a Jump Lord, in eight years. Not one. Only foot lords, and Terminator Lords. BULL. You're a day early, buy a calendar.
No, I haven't seen anyone in any of my play areas use Jump marines outside of the loyalist kind when smashers were all the rage. I've never actually seen mutilators or Warp Talons outside of box art either. It is possible there were some at LVO when I was there, but I didn't see them either. As for what I have seen, yes, it's mostly been terminator lords or the special characters. For the last four years I've been the only CSM player in my local meta as well, meaning if I don't run it, no one at my store is either.
I do hope these rumord about option removal prove incorrect if only because I wanted to kitbash Kharne and the World Claimer to make a Berserker Lord if I ever did World Eaters. Just thought a flying Berserker would look cool.
Night Lord players would feel the sting the most since building around jump packs is their whole schtick.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually the more I think about it the more I think the Chaos Lord rumors could be wrong. Namely because these two models are still for sale on the GW site with no sign of being removed with the rest of the range rotation stuff:
Spoiler:
Basically I'm going to chalk this up to early beta testing and not option removals at least until the point we see the actual datasheets.
How about GW just leaving those 2 lords up there to sell until they are gone? It's not like GW doesn't have a habit of leaving items up for sale on their web page after they are no longer useful. IIRC at one point they were selling older edition Codices for some armies after the newer codices were announced as coming out in the near future.
Rihgu wrote: I don't know why you view it as a removal of options. I have way more options than ever before on how to model my Chosen.
I have multiple special weapon Chosen squads each modeled to look like a cohesive unit (All melta guys with skull helmets, all plasma guys with the chain mail tabard, etc) now those squads are gone.
Ohh boy I can give my guys a mix of random close combat weapons, thats great but not all my chosen are cc built.
Removing options sucks, especially when our loyalist counterparts have options for damn near everything and Primaris on top of it
ClockworkZion wrote: Actually the more I think about it the more I think the Chaos Lord rumors could be wrong. Namely because these two models are still for sale on the GW site with no sign of being removed with the rest of the range rotation stuff:
The Jump Lord is on LCtB / rotation on the UK site.
ClockworkZion wrote: Actually the more I think about it the more I think the Chaos Lord rumors could be wrong. Namely because these two models are still for sale on the GW site with no sign of being removed with the rest of the range rotation stuff:
The Jump Lord is on LCtB / rotation on the UK site.
Somehow missed that he was LCTB in the US as well. The Night Lord Lord is only temporarily out of stock.
Option consolidation isn't a bad thing--rolling various types of power weapon into one, for example. But rolling in weapons that had distinctly different roles, like thunder hammers or lightning claws, is what sucks. There is a difference between, say, making a heavy bolter and chaincannon one profile vs making all heavy weapons one profile.
ClockworkZion wrote:I do hope these rumord about option removal prove incorrect if only because I wanted to kitbash Kharne and the World Claimer to make a Berserker Lord if I ever did World Eaters. Just thought a flying Berserker would look cool.
That sounds awesome. I was actually thinking of buying another Kharn and turning him into a Word Bearers Lord of Khorne, since it both would look cool and as a nod to Argel Talk.
Basically I'm going to chalk this up to early beta testing and not option removals at least until the point we see the actual datasheets.
I think that this makes sense. Personally, I don't think that the jump lord is going away any time soon. The current model is very old and out of date and will probably be replaced. If a new model doesn't come out soon, I'm thinking that it might in tenth edition. Chosen had no official models during all of eighth except for the OOP Dark Vengeance ones, and when the current Death Guard codex was first released, there was no Lord of Contagion on sale. The Dark Imperium one is shown in the datasheet besides only being available second hand. I think that the Dark Vengeance cultists were also not being sold any more by then, despite a picture of one being used for the DG cultist datasheet. The no rules/no models thing is not some magical spell that causes all rules for a model to instantaneously disappear when a particular model is discontinued. Sometimes all that's happening is that GW is making room for a replacement, and that can take some time.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Option consolidation isn't a bad thing--rolling various types of power weapon into one, for example. But rolling in weapons that had distinctly different roles, like thunder hammers or lightning claws, is what sucks. There is a difference between, say, making a heavy bolter and chaincannon one profile vs making all heavy weapons one profile.
Yeah, strip options too far back and you get something dull and uninteresting (kind of how I think of OPR's version of 40k). I like the Accursed Weapons thing and would love to see things like that pop up more, but not on every weapon option a unit can take.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
I'm for consolidation of weapon profiles, not weapon options. Huge difference between a Bolt Pistol and Combi-Bolter vs Power Sword and Power Axe.
So you are unironically defending the removal of options that you don't like.
I didn't remove any options though. Removing Combi-Bolter is removing an option. Saying all Power Weapons are the same is not. So if they said Lords could only have Thunder Hammers I would give the same argument.
"All ranged weapons on chaos lords are now 'adjective boltnoun guns' range 12" pistol 1 s4 ap- d1" solved all the problems.
There's a distinct difference between how pistols and bolter variants operated on a Lord. Nice try though.
Ah, I thought the only thing the chaos lord could take melee wise was the thunder hammer, since that's literally the only chaos lord (non-terminator) that GW sells now. If I can take any melee weapon, then I'll probably convert a lord or two out of the Chosen set.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Option consolidation isn't a bad thing--rolling various types of power weapon into one, for example. But rolling in weapons that had distinctly different roles, like thunder hammers or lightning claws, is what sucks. There is a difference between, say, making a heavy bolter and chaincannon one profile vs making all heavy weapons one profile.
Yeah, strip options too far back and you get something dull and uninteresting (kind of how I think of OPR's version of 40k). I like the Accursed Weapons thing and would love to see things like that pop up more, but not on every weapon option a unit can take.
I'm very torn on this sort of thing. There are a few aspects to it.
A. If I want to give my Chosen squad a ton of Chain axes and Power Axes, I don't have to worry about a) splitting up all those attacks or b) those attacks being worse off than other weapon options, like power mauls, that I personally don't like the look of as much.
B. My unit of Chosen with a bunch of power axes is now the exact same rules-wise as my opponent's Chosen with a mix of power swords, power mauls, chainswords, and other things, so my Chosen squad has less to make it feel unique, which is part of the lore of what Chosen *are*
C. At the end of the day, this still stems from the issue that there aren't enough pieces in the Chosen box to equip the entire unit with certain types of weapons, ranged or melee. I can't make a squad of melta Chosen with power fists. I can't make a squad of Flamer chosen. I can't give the Chosen a bunch of Lightning Claws (in fact, only one Chosen can have lightning claws and it's just +1 attack to the accursed weapons).
Meanwhile, Heavy Intercessors get three different kinds of heavy bolt rifle that are only vaguely different from each other... THOSE are weapons that really need to be consolidated. Hellblasters, Intercessors, Heavy Intercessors, and Eradicators don't need 3 profiles each for their weapon that change the weapon by... one number in a random category. One of those weapon profiles always stands above the rest in any particular meta, and the fact that the meta constantly changes means that the ideal weapon for those units will constantly change, so how is that new-player friendly to have your newbies pick one of three nearly-identical rifles?
This is just where a lot of arguments about removal of options tend to fall apart. Like I said, I dig that my squad of axe-wielding maniacs will be just as good as someone that loads theirs with other melee weapons, but so many issues with Chaos Marines right now (and this includes the Death Guard for they suffer the same fate) comes from GW not loading their sprues and boxes up with enough bits. So instead they strip down the options and effectively tell us to deal with it.
So, here we are. Staring down the barrel of an overly complex Codex that'll likely have tons of army rules and special stratagems and stuff, but fewer ways to build our models. Fewer ways to make our models feel like OUR models, 'your guys', or whatever. Stratagems and army rules and all of that may change over the years, but the models we're getting we are going to have for the foreseeable future. Whether we have accursed weapons split back up into different types or not isn't the problem, it's the fact that Chosen and Terminators will, for the next 10+ years, have a hodgepodge of weapons.
It's the inconsistency of it all, and the fact that it's not done to make things simpler for players, because if it was it'd be done across the entire army, not just the two kits that don't have enough options built into the sprue.
That's why I default to leaving them with the rules they have, rather than consolidation, because if you're not going to consolidate everything, then why bother? It'd be like running file compression on a bunch of files, but leaving some uncompressed for no reason.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the inconsistency of it all, and the fact that it's not done to make things simpler for players, because if it was it'd be done across the entire army, not just the two kits that don't have enough options built into the sprue.
That's why I default to leaving them with the rules they have, rather than consolidation, because if you're not going to consolidate everything, then why bother? It'd be like running file compression on a bunch of files, but leaving some uncompressed for no reason.
Yeah but I wouldn't bother touching the codex if the Terminator entry was gonna read "This unit contains 1 Terminator with 1 Chainaxe, 1 Terminator with 1 Power Sword, etc."
You want the rules they have until it actually happens.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the inconsistency of it all, and the fact that it's not done to make things simpler for players, because if it was it'd be done across the entire army, not just the two kits that don't have enough options built into the sprue.
That's why I default to leaving them with the rules they have, rather than consolidation, because if you're not going to consolidate everything, then why bother? It'd be like running file compression on a bunch of files, but leaving some uncompressed for no reason.
Yeah but I wouldn't bother touching the codex if the Terminator entry was gonna read "This unit contains 1 Terminator with 1 Chainaxe, 1 Terminator with 1 Power Sword, etc."
You want the rules they have until it actually happens.
No, we want the options they had for the last 20 years.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the inconsistency of it all, and the fact that it's not done to make things simpler for players, because if it was it'd be done across the entire army, not just the two kits that don't have enough options built into the sprue.
That's why I default to leaving them with the rules they have, rather than consolidation, because if you're not going to consolidate everything, then why bother? It'd be like running file compression on a bunch of files, but leaving some uncompressed for no reason.
Yeah but I wouldn't bother touching the codex if the Terminator entry was gonna read "This unit contains 1 Terminator with 1 Chainaxe, 1 Terminator with 1 Power Sword, etc."
You want the rules they have until it actually happens.
No, we want the options they had for the last 20 years.
Oh trust me same here. Hell I'd love to return to being able to take 3 man squads (simply because I liked taking 4 man squads).
Unfortunately for NEW AND IMPROVED GW the closest we'll get with the old loadout is Power Swords +1 and limited Fists to take in the squad. I'm not looking forward to the 1 Combi-Plasma/Flamer/Melta that's gonna happen like with Blightlords.
Although Blightlords are weird since you can't actually build the basic loadout ad far as I know via five each of Sword or Axe. Probably expect you to default to taking a Flail.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think he knows that, but is more making the point that if the choice is between accursed weapons or this, he'll take accursed weapons.
A. A unit that has full options and a box that has the bits to make that. We don't actually have this, because it doesn't exist, so they have moved to option B.
B. A unit that has consolidated options so that the bits in the box don't actually matter. You can give things whatever, to a certain level at least. This is where we are. It's at least slightly better than C.
C. "This unit can take 1 of x and 1 of y and 2 of z and the rest of the unit has u." The worst of the bunch because it's the worst of the box not having enough options but also having to split things up into a bunch of different dice rolls.
So we're at B. Would love to be at A, though, but that's clearly not going to happen.
Here's hoping they take a page from Warhammer Total War 3 and make the daemon prince super customisable (maybe not with specific things from the kit, but with special rules that do not need specific things modelled on).
Back in the day I had too many unpainted models for my Night Lords. So I created a new CSM warband with a Nurgle affiliation to paint those minis. More then a decade later GW published for the first time a Death Guard codex. Being intrigued I immediately checked it out only to discover that the Terminators didn´t have access to power gloves anymore. Unsurprisingly I put the book back onto the shelf leaving the store while muttering F*** Gee-Dubs.
They wanted to force their new Death Guard Terminator kit down my throat but I smelled that ploy ten miles against the wind.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm not looking forward to the 1 Combi-Plasma/Flamer/Melta that's gonna happen like with Blightlords.
They should just give them generic combi-weapons (shoot like combi-bolters) and make the combi-plasma/flamer/melta stratagems. Hell, if we make each one a separate stratagem we can even copy-paste the wording. That's 3 statagems in the bank! It looks like we're clocking out early today lads!
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm not looking forward to the 1 Combi-Plasma/Flamer/Melta that's gonna happen like with Blightlords.
They should just give them generic combi-weapons (shoot like combi-bolters) and make the combi-plasma/flamer/melta stratagems. Hell, if we make each one a separate stratagem we can even copy-paste the wording. That's 3 statagems in the bank! It looks like we're clocking out early today lads!
I'm very suspicious about the Accursed Weapons, the new Chosen models and 10th edition.
You get the new models, you see the 9th edition rules, you build your squads of new Chosen with 1 of each melee weapon per squad because it looks cool.
10th rolls around, GW says "we've heard your feedback" and now the datasheet is like a normal Space Marine sheet and the best load outs are 5 Chosen all with Axes, 5 Chosen all with Talons, 5 Chosen all with etc. etc.
Turning back to the recent clockworkchris leaks.
BL, not too happy they have the put a unit in every doctrine strategem, as that is codex wide in Space Marines, same issue with transhuman being Nurgle locked, but being codex wide but at least limited to Primaris in SM.
AL, auto explode can be very strong in some metas, e.g. Hammerheads and Devilfish do d6 MWs within 6" currently.
The transhitman prayer that also turns off re-rolls to hit, that is a strong buff, especially as there is a source of -1 already (Nurgle spell or AL at range) and it can be combined with transhuman (Nurgle again). It leans towards building a single very tanky unit. The other option is transhitman plus the Tzeentch 4++, I'm the Harlequin now! We've just got to find the one tanky unit, 30W T5 Possesed blob maybe or 30W of Terminators? BL might be good in combination if they either have some way to give obsec or their old strat to remove other people's obsec or IW for more survivability stacking.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
That's the nature of the beast. I understand your feelings, they're likely the feelings of most of the community. But as I said, the solution isn't simple. Balancing 2000+ data sheets over 6-10 different games, many with dozens of options of their own is going to be next to impossible for GW, as they are already not that great at game balance to begin with. With all the screaming for game balance to be a priority, they're making the best choice they have, which is to reduce the complexity and scope of the game, an easy way to do that is remove options.
For all the complaining I've been seeing about the loss of the Jump pack Chaos lord, I can honestly tell you that having been a part of the hobby for nearly 8 years, and having played in four different US states during that time, I've never seen a jump pack lord on the table that wasn't a Blood Angel. People obviously have them and use them, but they're not that popular and that is something that I am sure GW market research has shown. Axing weaker or limited things is the easiest solution to them.
You haven't seen a Jump Lord, in eight years. Not one. Only foot lords, and Terminator Lords. BULL. You're a day early, buy a calendar.
No, I haven't seen anyone in any of my play areas use Jump marines outside of the loyalist kind when smashers were all the rage. I've never actually seen mutilators or Warp Talons outside of box art either. It is possible there were some at LVO when I was there, but I didn't see them either. As for what I have seen, yes, it's mostly been terminator lords or the special characters. For the last four years I've been the only CSM player in my local meta as well, meaning if I don't run it, no one at my store is either.
So, based on your very anecdotal evidence, fully half of which comes from a meta where you are the only CSM player, meaning that "if you don't run it, no one else will", you've decided that Jump Lords are "not that popular" and need to be "Axed", because apparently gw's "market research" consists entirely of you. Yup, makes sense.
ClockworkZion wrote:I do hope these rumord about option removal prove incorrect if only because I wanted to kitbash Kharne and the World Claimer to make a Berserker Lord if I ever did World Eaters. Just thought a flying Berserker would look cool.
Night Lord players would feel the sting the most since building around jump packs is their whole schtick.
Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
So, based on your very anecdotal evidence, fully half of which comes from a meta where you are the only CSM player, meaning that "if you don't run it, no one else will", you've decided that Jump Lords are "not that popular" and need to be "Axed", because apparently gw's "market research" consists entirely of you. Yup, makes sense.
You would think that he would get half way through writing out that explanation and stop in shame as he realised how silly it sounds when put in writing, but I guess at least we can admire his tenacity?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think he knows that, but is more making the point that if the choice is between accursed weapons or this, he'll take accursed weapons.
I'm kinda of the same mind.
Ah, I misunderstood. Yeah, THAT is pretty much worst case scenario.
So I haven't said anything in this thread yet but I have to point a few things out.
1. This accursed weapon idea is a good idea. They already did this with harliquins and their different weapons, if they do the same here I don't see any issues.
2. This is actually great if your a modeler who does crazy things. I have a 5 man terminator which I gave each a special type of weapon back in 3.5, they were my apostles of war. 1 had a hammer, 1 a fist, 1 a flail like weapon, 1 a melta bomb attached to a giant ass spike.... you get the idea. Now it's easier for my opponents and me to say what those are, the fist is a fist the rest are accursed weapons. I can use them again.
3. This leaves a ton of room on the floor for modeling, doesn't matter what they look like they are equipped with accursed weapons. From my modeling pov I love this design space idea. I wana model a terminator using a cadian as a weapon? Accursed weapon. Give one a scythe? Accursed weapon. Possibilities for modeling are endless. This makes me happy.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
drbored wrote: The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
Yeah, too personal & specific, don't care.
The real issue is that chaos marines are losing options again, and the rationale seems to be 'Its chaos, so... whatever. The sculptors didn't do a jump character this time, we have to rip those pages out'
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
What a fantastic hot take. Night Lords legion trait should be that they cost more points because they're poor.
In fact, how often do CSM actually win in the fluff? Like maybe 1% of the time? They should take a survey of Black Library stories and calculate their win percentage based on that and then balance the codex so their tabletop performance matches. Brilliant!
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
What a fantastic hot take. Night Lords legion trait should be that they cost more points because they're poor.
In fact, how often do CSM actually win in the fluff? Like maybe 1% of the time? They should take a survey of Black Library stories and calculate their win percentage based on that and then balance the codex so their tabletop performance matches. Brilliant!
drbored wrote: The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
Yeah, too personal & specific, don't care.
The real issue is that chaos marines are losing options again, and the rationale seems to be 'Its chaos, so... whatever. The sculptors didn't do a jump character this time, we have to rip those pages out'
Eh, too narrow minded and poorly considered, don't care.
drbored wrote: The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
Yeah, too personal & specific, don't care.
The real issue is that chaos marines are losing options again, and the rationale seems to be 'Its chaos, so... whatever. The sculptors didn't do a jump character this time, we have to rip those pages out'
Eh, too narrow minded and poorly considered, don't care.
Yes, of course. Chaos losing options for _everyone_, not just night lords, is narrow minded.
Is that your attempt at an April fool's joke?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
Is this an April Fools post? I mean, you got enough right to make it sound like you actually read the books, but so much wrong, while you were at it. I mean, Jain Zar wasn't a "lone Eldar", she brought Banshees, Swooping Hawks, and various other Knife Ears with her. And none of the "mooks" used jump packs? Umm, hello? Bleeding Eyes? Ring a bell? And yes, one of the Night Lords HH Praetors is in terminator armour. The other is in power armour, and has a jump pack.
But yeah, they should probably write a BL novel about a Night Lord with a jump pack, and maybe some lightning claws. They could call it "Lord of the Darkness" or "Master of the Night" or something. Maybe get that Simon Spurrier chap to write it. I hear he's pretty good.
But obviously you knew that I was talking about what the army needs to work on the table, not "fluff", or your rather entertaining personal takes on it. But hey, nice joke, hilarious as always.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
What a fantastic hot take. Night Lords legion trait should be that they cost more points because they're poor.
In fact, how often do CSM actually win in the fluff? Like maybe 1% of the time? They should take a survey of Black Library stories and calculate their win percentage based on that and then balance the codex so their tabletop performance matches. Brilliant!
I'd prefer we don't try the Loyalists 8.5 approach to game design again.
It is strange to be like “here’s a story where night lords don’t have jump packs.”
Ok, and here’s a story where alpha legion think they’re loyalist and work with a cryptek.
Here’s a story where a world eater is calm and collected or uses primarily ranged weapons.
Just because a warband operates a certain way in one story doesn’t mean they all do. And if someone wants their army to have a jump pack lord, which was still being sold as a model until recently, why shouldn’t they?
So back the the CSM rumors with the recent Squat announcement we can safely say that everything on that leaked list is coming. So here's what we know the CSM are getting:
+Regular Possessed (thank Jimmy Space, that dang kit is old and while it was great for kitbashing with the kit itself had aged poorly)
+ Bikers (guessing a box of 3 since that seems to be GW's favorite number for these kinds of units, but maybe they'll surprise me and do a box of 5)
+ Chosen (Confirmed, released via Killteam)
+ Warpsmith (Confirmed, released initially with knife ears. Pending stand alone release)
+ Cultists (Looks like the "Cultists of the Abyss" set I guess, which means a lot of shirtless guys and masks over their face. Cool look honestly)
+ Traitor Guard "BSF style" (best guess is the traitor guard from BSF are getting a kit. Perhaps the Commisar and Ogryn will too. Also Chaos Beastmen please)
+ Human Mutants (guessing some form of chaos corrupted humans or people with unfortunate mutations who tend to turn on their oppressors when given a chance in 40k stories)
+ Possessed Humans (apparently this one and the previous one are "monstrously horrible" which sounds wonderful)
+ Cultist standard bearer (because every uprising needs a banner)
+ Cultist character with bodyguard
Also mentioned for later this year (no set release dates or details about models):
+World Eaters
+Chaos Daemons
So I know that some people look at CSM and say that they shouldn't have squishy humans in the book, but honestly most of the stories I've read with CSM have them using humans as a sort of answer to the numbers problem CSM would have otherwise. After all CSM losses are even harder to replace than regular Astartes and if you can use cheap fodder to give yourself even the slightest advantage then it's best to do so. As such I'm fine with humans being a big expansion to the book, plus this is probably the closes to a Lost and the Damned book we'll see for some time (fingers crossed for some guard tank access so Iron Warriors can take Bassies again). Then again I'm biased towards Word Bearers who love stirring up a good mob of zealous cultists.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I don't mind a few meatshield expansions, but without properly working Chaos Marines (and of course Huron) the codex will be a bust for me.
I don't disagree there, but until we see rulebook leaks/man-reads-book-previews I don't hold the rumors in high regard due to the amount of fake rumors we've seen. Basically I'm just not banking on how good/bad those rules will be for a while now.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I know that some people look at CSM and say that they shouldn't have squishy humans in the book, but honestly most of the stories I've read with CSM have them using humans as a sort of answer to the numbers problem CSM would have otherwise. After all CSM losses are even harder to replace than regular Astartes and if you can use cheap fodder to give yourself even the slightest advantage then it's best to do so. As such I'm fine with humans being a big expansion to the book, plus this is probably the closes to a Lost and the Damned book we'll see for some time (fingers crossed for some guard tank access so Iron Warriors can take Bassies again). Then again I'm biased towards Word Bearers who love stirring up a good mob of zealous cultists.
I'm thinking maybe they'll put a few cult units in this Chaos Codex, then in 10th edition they'll have a second wave and split marines and mortals into separate books.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I don't mind a few meatshield expansions, but without properly working Chaos Marines (and of course Huron) the codex will be a bust for me.
Considering how DOA cultists seem (no traits and synergy at all) why are you concerned. If anything this book will be the final nail for those of us who like the cult /traitorguard side of things more than CSM.
And for the CSm side of things, considering that everyone now got their way to deal with w2 and has gotten AP galore i don't think it looks good for our troop choices.
Alas we also lose jumppack HQ so ehh.
In much the same way that GW has seemingly forgotten about Emperor's Children, leaving them languishing without anything to show for themselves other than a resin conversion kit designed for a completely different (and out of print) set of Space Marines.
I honestly don't know who's getting the short end of the stick with this Codex: People who liked using Cult units in their armies at all, or Emperor's Children players.
In much the same way that GW has seemingly forgotten about Emperor's Children, leaving them languishing without anything to show for themselves other than a resin conversion kit designed for a completely different (and out of print) set of Space Marines.
I honestly don't know who's getting the short end of the stick with this Codex: People who liked using Cult units in their armies at all, or Emperor's Children players.
Eh... Feels like at this point codex EC is less a question of if and more a question of when. So at this point I'm just exited about our potential new goodies and being patient.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I don't mind a few meatshield expansions, but without properly working Chaos Marines (and of course Huron) the codex will be a bust for me.
Considering how DOA cultists seem (no traits and synergy at all) why are you concerned. If anything this book will be the final nail for those of us who like the cult /traitorguard side of things more than CSM.
And for the CSm side of things, considering that everyone now got their way to deal with w2 and has gotten AP galore i don't think it looks good for our troop choices.
Alas we also lose jumppack HQ so ehh.
I'm thinking they'll have to have a different way of implementing all the new mortal units somehow to justify their existence if nothing else. Maybe they have a separate army wide rule that only kicks in if the command unit is included or something.
I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
There's room for all sorts of sonic units and daemon engines, some unique characters and buff/debuff units. You seem to be thinking slaanesh space marines require boobs and sex everywhere.
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
There's room for all sorts of sonic units and daemon engines, some unique characters and buff/debuff units. You seem to be thinking slaanesh space marines require boobs and sex everywhere.
I'd love to see all that and would like to be proven wrong but being a CSM player for 23 years...
Chosen weren't in Kill-Team. Regular Marines with an upgrade sprue were.
Ah that's right. Chosen where in the box with the Warpsmith.
Well, confirmed is confirmed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
There's room for all sorts of sonic units and daemon engines, some unique characters and buff/debuff units. You seem to be thinking slaanesh space marines require boobs and sex everywhere.
I'd love to see all that and would like to be proven wrong but being a CSM player for 23 years...
Just covering what GW have already done for them so far in reality:
Noise marines
Heavy noise marines (kakaphoni)
Sonic dreadnoughts
Perfection hunting swordmasters - forget the name they're in HH
From there you easily have:
Vain marines covered in mirror surfaces with perfect armour
Other warriors who hunt perfection in combat
As mentioned above gluttonous marines who just have too much of everything, be it food or w/e
Pain loving marines
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
I feel that Chaos in 40K is massively hampered by being so intrinsically linked to the CSM, which ultimately are pretty rigid and boring. AOS chaos is so much more interesting, innovative and evocative.
This is made worse by the fact that a lot of the 40K chaos players don't actually want to play chaos, they want to play HH in 40K, so they always cry when the designers try to take things into more interesting direction than just HH with spikes.
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
I feel that Chaos in 40K is massively hampered by being so intrinsically linked to the CSM, which ultimately are pretty rigid and boring. AOS chaos is so much more interesting, innovative and evocative.
This if made worse to the fact that a lot of the 40K chaos players don't actually want to play chaos, they want to play HH in 40K, so they always cry when the designers try to take things into more interesting direction than just HH with spikes.
Which is hilarious since much of that grouching predates us knowing anything about the Heresy to start with. I for one am perfectly happy with the two being different things despite my brainworm of an idea to make Word Bearers for HH and reuse the models for 40k.
ClockworkZion wrote: So back the the CSM rumors with the recent Squat announcement we can safely say that everything on that leaked list is coming. So here's what we know the CSM are getting:
Spoiler:
+Regular Possessed (thank Jimmy Space, that dang kit is old and while it was great for kitbashing with the kit itself had aged poorly) + Bikers (guessing a box of 3 since that seems to be GW's favorite number for these kinds of units, but maybe they'll surprise me and do a box of 5)
+ Chosen (Confirmed, released via Killteam)
Spoiler:
+ Warpsmith (Confirmed, released initially with knife ears. Pending stand alone release) + Cultists (Looks like the "Cultists of the Abyss" set I guess, which means a lot of shirtless guys and masks over their face. Cool look honestly) + Traitor Guard "BSF style" (best guess is the traitor guard from BSF are getting a kit. Perhaps the Commisar and Ogryn will too. Also Chaos Beastmen please) + Human Mutants (guessing some form of chaos corrupted humans or people with unfortunate mutations who tend to turn on their oppressors when given a chance in 40k stories) + Possessed Humans (apparently this one and the previous one are "monstrously horrible" which sounds wonderful) + Cultist standard bearer (because every uprising needs a banner) + Cultist character with bodyguard
Also mentioned for later this year (no set release dates or details about models): +World Eaters +Chaos Daemons
So I know that some people look at CSM and say that they shouldn't have squishy humans in the book, but honestly most of the stories I've read with CSM have them using humans as a sort of answer to the numbers problem CSM would have otherwise. After all CSM losses are even harder to replace than regular Astartes and if you can use cheap fodder to give yourself even the slightest advantage then it's best to do so. As such I'm fine with humans being a big expansion to the book, plus this is probably the closes to a Lost and the Damned book we'll see for some time (fingers crossed for some guard tank access so Iron Warriors can take Bassies again). Then again I'm biased towards Word Bearers who love stirring up a good mob of zealous cultists.
Minor nitpick, but Chosen weren't released with Kill Team. They and the Warpsmith came with Eldritch Omens.
Kill Team: Nachmund Gauntlet was the Aeldari Corsairs v repacked with additional sprue Legionaries.
It is worth mentioning that while there are rules in the Compendium for an all-Cultist team, there's a lot of art of new style Cultists in the KT books.
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
I feel that Chaos in 40K is massively hampered by being so intrinsically linked to the CSM, which ultimately are pretty rigid and boring. AOS chaos is so much more interesting, innovative and evocative.
This if made worse to the fact that a lot of the 40K chaos players don't actually want to play chaos, they want to play HH in 40K, so they always cry when the designers try to take things into more interesting direction than just HH with spikes.
Yeah I would prefer God focussed Codexes myself including mortal, Heretic Astartes and Daemons plus a seperate Dark Mechanicus/Knights codex
ClockworkZion wrote: So back the the CSM rumors with the recent Squat announcement we can safely say that everything on that leaked list is coming. So here's what we know the CSM are getting:
Spoiler:
+Regular Possessed (thank Jimmy Space, that dang kit is old and while it was great for kitbashing with the kit itself had aged poorly)
+ Bikers (guessing a box of 3 since that seems to be GW's favorite number for these kinds of units, but maybe they'll surprise me and do a box of 5)
+ Chosen (Confirmed, released via Killteam)
Spoiler:
+ Warpsmith (Confirmed, released initially with knife ears. Pending stand alone release)
+ Cultists (Looks like the "Cultists of the Abyss" set I guess, which means a lot of shirtless guys and masks over their face. Cool look honestly)
+ Traitor Guard "BSF style" (best guess is the traitor guard from BSF are getting a kit. Perhaps the Commisar and Ogryn will too. Also Chaos Beastmen please)
+ Human Mutants (guessing some form of chaos corrupted humans or people with unfortunate mutations who tend to turn on their oppressors when given a chance in 40k stories)
+ Possessed Humans (apparently this one and the previous one are "monstrously horrible" which sounds wonderful)
+ Cultist standard bearer (because every uprising needs a banner)
+ Cultist character with bodyguard
Also mentioned for later this year (no set release dates or details about models):
+World Eaters
+Chaos Daemons
So I know that some people look at CSM and say that they shouldn't have squishy humans in the book, but honestly most of the stories I've read with CSM have them using humans as a sort of answer to the numbers problem CSM would have otherwise. After all CSM losses are even harder to replace than regular Astartes and if you can use cheap fodder to give yourself even the slightest advantage then it's best to do so. As such I'm fine with humans being a big expansion to the book, plus this is probably the closes to a Lost and the Damned book we'll see for some time (fingers crossed for some guard tank access so Iron Warriors can take Bassies again). Then again I'm biased towards Word Bearers who love stirring up a good mob of zealous cultists.
Minor nitpick, but Chosen weren't released with Kill Team. They and the Warpsmith came with Eldritch Omens.
Kill Team: Nachmund Gauntlet was the Aeldari Corsairs v repacked with additional sprue Legionaries.
It is worth mentioning that while there are rules in the Compendium for an all-Cultist team, there's a lot of art of new style Cultists in the KT books.
Yeah the nitpick was already mentioned. Either way a confirmation is a confirmation even if I mixed up which thing it came from.
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
I feel that Chaos in 40K is massively hampered by being so intrinsically linked to the CSM, which ultimately are pretty rigid and boring. AOS chaos is so much more interesting, innovative and evocative.
This if made worse to the fact that a lot of the 40K chaos players don't actually want to play chaos, they want to play HH in 40K, so they always cry when the designers try to take things into more interesting direction than just HH with spikes.
Yeah I would prefer God focussed Codexes myself including mortal, Heretic Astartes and Daemons plus a seperate Dark Mechanicus/Knights codex
AoS took that approach and I think it works better that way.
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
I feel that Chaos in 40K is massively hampered by being so intrinsically linked to the CSM, which ultimately are pretty rigid and boring. AOS chaos is so much more interesting, innovative and evocative.
This if made worse to the fact that a lot of the 40K chaos players don't actually want to play chaos, they want to play HH in 40K, so they always cry when the designers try to take things into more interesting direction than just HH with spikes.
Yeah I would prefer God focussed Codexes myself including mortal, Heretic Astartes and Daemons plus a seperate Dark Mechanicus/Knights codex
I'm just a huge fan of Tzeentch, so I'm quite happy to play Thousand Sons as-is in 40k. And if it gains enough local traction, I'll just start collecting them HH, too.
As for god-focused books - I like the idea, but where would that leave the five Undivided Legions and assorted Renegade Astartes?
Manfred von Drakken wrote: As for god-focused books - I like the idea, but where would that leave the five Undivided Legions and assorted Renegade Astartes?
In the CSM Codex with at least a character each for the Legions, Bile for his mooks, and Huron for the Corsairs. With the EC and WE traits out, the Creations of Bile and the Corsairs can hop in and with custom Warband traits, it's off to a steady start.
In much the same way that GW has seemingly forgotten about Emperor's Children, leaving them languishing without anything to show for themselves other than a resin conversion kit designed for a completely different (and out of print) set of Space Marines.
I honestly don't know who's getting the short end of the stick with this Codex: People who liked using Cult units in their armies at all, or Emperor's Children players.
New models would be great but I just want rules that follow the lore and don't feel bad to play with. We'll have to see about the stratagem, relics, and warlord traits. But these leaks don't seem that bad for EC outside of things that suck for everyone, like being losing war gear and having weapons limited to the existing kits. I mean nothing in here is a bad as going two editions with overpriced Sonic Blasters that couldn't move and fire. Even Lucius seems worth taking finally.
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
I feel that Chaos in 40K is massively hampered by being so intrinsically linked to the CSM, which ultimately are pretty rigid and boring. AOS chaos is so much more interesting, innovative and evocative.
This if made worse to the fact that a lot of the 40K chaos players don't actually want to play chaos, they want to play HH in 40K, so they always cry when the designers try to take things into more interesting direction than just HH with spikes.
Yeah I would prefer God focussed Codexes myself including mortal, Heretic Astartes and Daemons plus a seperate Dark Mechanicus/Knights codex
I'm just a huge fan of Tzeentch, so I'm quite happy to play Thousand Sons as-is in 40k. And if it gains enough local traction, I'll just start collecting them HH, too.
As for god-focused books - I like the idea, but where would that leave the five Undivided Legions and assorted Renegade Astartes?
In a single book (maybe with supplements) much like how AoS puts Slaves to Darkness in a single book despite the different factions you can build out of it.
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
I don't think its that much of a reach honestly. Your right...that Slaanesh's six circles/deadly sins from WF/AOS won't work in 40K, sine the main "sin" of the EC is pride. But, we already have Platine Blades and Phoenix Terminators to represent the "Duelist" nature of the Legion. Noise Marines can be easily expanded upon with heavier sonic weapons and a buffing character you can call him a "Conductor/Composer". A Sonic Dreadnought obviously. Maybe a "Fleshcrafter" apothecary; like a mini-Fabius Bile.
Aesthetics wise I don't expect or need any breast on the models. But there should flayed human and eldar skins like the raiment replusive and endless grin. It shouldn't be a problem since Drukhari model line and current CSM models already have some of that. Maybe some Hellraiser-esque hooked chains, torture implements, and body-horror and their good.
I feel bad for saying it but all of the current rumors are the reason that I got rid of all of my CSM generic units. Here we had a huge opportunity to create a vast array of chaos space marine legions that could have been represented very similarly to what we saw with the 8th edition Space marine legion books. I don't care what others feel regarding the "fresh" approach that GW seems to be taking with these releases. CHAOS for the sake of chaos is not chaos, it's just lazy. We need fresh takes on Iron warriors, night lords, and most of all alpha legion that truly depart from the stereotypical "summon daemons, ooooo spooky". They have done so much right through thousand sons and death guard, and hopefully the coming world eaters, but what appears to be the plan right now is not it and I am glad their sales will take a hit for it. Others may not feel that they owe us fans anything but they do. We are the reason they have done so well monetarily, and the IP may be theirs, but we are it's life blood with every purchase we make and every game we play.
I don't want horus heresy 2.0, I want a resurgence of horrifying space marines that make even the black ragers blush from their acts of villainy that "they" commit, not something that possessed them or summoned by them. Shame on you GW.
If all the daemons are split off into 4 different books, where does that leave Word Bearers? Why don't they get to team up with daemons while 4 other legions do? Word Bearers are just as if not more closely tied to daemons than the cult legions.
They have done so much right through thousand sons and death guard, and hopefully the coming world eaters, but what appears to be the plan right now is not it and I am glad their sales will take a hit for it.
If you think this forum which is nicknamed "The retirement home of boomers" on other social medias (such as Reddit) is representative of the community or that GW sales will take a hit because of one single Codex when their business has never been more profitable, you need to seek medical help ASAP because you are delusional.
If they can fit Squats back into Warhammer 40k, update their design and lore, and probably retcon a bunch of things, then there's PLENTY of room for lots of different Emperor's Children things.
Even if EC just get equivalents to Thousand Sons, that's still:
Fulgrim
Lucius the Eternal
Slaanesh Lord
Slaanesh Sorcerer
Noise Marines
EC Terminators
Slaanesh Cultists
Slaanesh Cultist Leader
Slaanesh Cultist Elites
Which honestly would be plenty, especially if you allow them to take the generic options for vehicles, daemon engines, and maybe a couple other things as well. It would be enough to give them their own flavor.
If they go wild and give us even more stuff, like to the level that Death Guard got, then we might also see a Slaanesh-specific tank, a bunch of other weird and wacky characters, and a few other elite Slaanesh units.
It really boils down to this mysterious mix of creative direction and designer choice, since apparently the mini-designers get to wield the sword of judgement when it comes to what gets updated and what doesn't. They did a great job with AoS, since not only did they give Slaanesh a bunch of mortal units, they also gave us a few new Daemon units, new Keeper of Secrets, and then the Slaanesh Twins as well. It was actually quite a huge 2-wave overhaul of the Slaanesh faction.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah I would prefer God focussed Codexes myself including mortal, Heretic Astartes and Daemons plus a seperate Dark Mechanicus/Knights codex
Voss wrote: ...retirement home of boomers?
I suspect reddit needs math help.
I think they mean more in behavior than literal age.
Still weird.
I'd argue... hmm. No, lets bury this tangent instead. It isn't going to go anywhere good.
So, are there any good compilations of rumors so far? They've been good quality, but piecemeal.
Pacing of releases would be interesting as well. Arena of Shades happened, but AoS has the Thondia terrain and book, Underworlds has zombies, BB has Norse, and 40k has Tyranids, Chaos Knight box and Knight books. Presumably all of that is coming out before Marines, so... late May? Maybe? Not sure if Ash Wastes is coming beforehand or not, but that and HH seem primed to dominate previews once they start. (Given the HH was just the trailer, I suspect that will come after CSM, but not sure).
Voss wrote: ...retirement home of boomers?
I suspect reddit needs math help.
I think they mean more in behavior than literal age.
Still weird.
I'd argue... hmm. No, lets bury this tangent instead. It isn't going to go anywhere good.
So, are there any good compilations of rumors so far? They've been good quality, but piecemeal.
Pacing of releases would be interesting as well. Arena of Shades happened, but AoS has the Thondia terrain and book, Underworlds has zombies, BB has Norse, and 40k has Tyranids, Chaos Knight box and Knight books. Presumably all of that is coming out before Marines, so... late May? Maybe? Not sure if Ash Wastes is coming beforehand or not, but that and HH seem primed to dominate previews once they start. (Given the HH was just the trailer, I suspect that will come after CSM, but not sure).
Tyranids and Thondia terrain are going up for preorder this coming Saturday, so that knocks out those things at least.
Ash Wastes is very likely to be coming out before Chaos Marines. We've seen the full box for it, whereas CSM have only had teasers so far.
30k is rumored to be hitting June/July, so should be after Chaos Marines. That would put Chaos Marines in late May, yeah. I'm guessing this month we'll see Ash Wastes, and there will be a week in there that covers the Underworlds and Blood Bowl stuff, and then early May or late April will likely be the Knights.
In much the same way that GW has seemingly forgotten about Emperor's Children, leaving them languishing without anything to show for themselves other than a resin conversion kit designed for a completely different (and out of print) set of Space Marines.
I honestly don't know who's getting the short end of the stick with this Codex: People who liked using Cult units in their armies at all, or Emperor's Children players.
Emperor's Children got a lot more teases in the Psychic Awakening series than Squats did. It's not like they're not coming, its unfortunately just further away.
Sadly, I don't think we can even buy the awesome noise marine anymore :/
drbored wrote: If they can fit Squats back into Warhammer 40k, update their design and lore, and probably retcon a bunch of things, then there's PLENTY of room for lots of different Emperor's Children things.
Even if EC just get equivalents to Thousand Sons, that's still:
Fulgrim
Lucius the Eternal
Slaanesh Lord
Slaanesh Sorcerer
Noise Marines
EC Terminators
Slaanesh Cultists
Slaanesh Cultist Leader
Slaanesh Cultist Elites
Which honestly would be plenty, especially if you allow them to take the generic options for vehicles, daemon engines, and maybe a couple other things as well. It would be enough to give them their own flavor.
If they go wild and give us even more stuff, like to the level that Death Guard got, then we might also see a Slaanesh-specific tank, a bunch of other weird and wacky characters, and a few other elite Slaanesh units.
It really boils down to this mysterious mix of creative direction and designer choice, since apparently the mini-designers get to wield the sword of judgement when it comes to what gets updated and what doesn't. They did a great job with AoS, since not only did they give Slaanesh a bunch of mortal units, they also gave us a few new Daemon units, new Keeper of Secrets, and then the Slaanesh Twins as well. It was actually quite a huge 2-wave overhaul of the Slaanesh faction.
Considering World Eaters are about to get a big release of their own this summer, but with a lot less leaks than CSM/etc, I'm worried about how many new models they're gonna end up actually getting. Like all we have to go on is "probably Angron, probably zerkers, and probably one specific rumor engine pic" for them compared to the sheer amount of chaos leaks.
I could totally see them toning down on unique cult units, even if it would suck.
cole1114 wrote: I could totally see them toning down on unique cult units, even if it would suck.
What makes you think they'd do that?
Indeed, history suggests otherwise. When they spun-off the Thousand Sons, they got a new Rubric Marines kit and a new terminator unit. Death Guard got even more. At the very least, I would expect to see new Berzerkers and some kind of terminator unit.
cole1114 wrote: I could totally see them toning down on unique cult units, even if it would suck.
What makes you think they'd do that?
Indeed, history suggests otherwise. When they spun-off the Thousand Sons, they got a new Rubric Marines kit and a new terminator unit. Death Guard got even more. At the very least, I would expect to see new Berzerkers and some kind of terminator unit.
cole1114 wrote: I could totally see them toning down on unique cult units, even if it would suck.
What makes you think they'd do that?
Indeed, history suggests otherwise. When they spun-off the Thousand Sons, they got a new Rubric Marines kit and a new terminator unit. Death Guard got even more. At the very least, I would expect to see new Berzerkers and some kind of terminator unit.
Cult as in cultist, sorry.
there is not much they can tone down anymore in that regard.
BTW, the Priest, banner and Psyker checks out with how the normal / average Chaos cult is built hierarchically.
The problem is, that quite a few cults heavily differ from that build however.
cole1114 wrote: I could totally see them toning down on unique cult units, even if it would suck.
What makes you think they'd do that?
Indeed, history suggests otherwise. When they spun-off the Thousand Sons, they got a new Rubric Marines kit and a new terminator unit. Death Guard got even more. At the very least, I would expect to see new Berzerkers and some kind of terminator unit.
Cult as in cultist, sorry.
there is not much they can tone down anymore in that regard.
BTW, the Priest, banner and Psyker checks out with how the normal / average Chaos cult is built hierarchically.
The problem is, that quite a few cults heavily differ from that build however.
As in unlike death guard/thousand sons, not giving world eaters any unique cultist-level units. So no tzaangor/poxwalker equivalents. There also haven't been any rumors or leaks towards any kind of like 40k red butchers or anything, so that really just leaves them with the zerkers and whatever the claw rumor engine was. Which leaves a pretty anemic book, compared to all the leaks we get for everything else.
cole1114 wrote: I could totally see them toning down on unique cult units, even if it would suck.
What makes you think they'd do that?
Indeed, history suggests otherwise. When they spun-off the Thousand Sons, they got a new Rubric Marines kit and a new terminator unit. Death Guard got even more. At the very least, I would expect to see new Berzerkers and some kind of terminator unit.
Cult as in cultist, sorry.
there is not much they can tone down anymore in that regard.
BTW, the Priest, banner and Psyker checks out with how the normal / average Chaos cult is built hierarchically.
The problem is, that quite a few cults heavily differ from that build however.
As in unlike death guard/thousand sons, not giving world eaters any unique cultist-level units. So no tzaangor/poxwalker equivalents. There also haven't been any rumors or leaks towards any kind of like 40k red butchers or anything, so that really just leaves them with the zerkers and whatever the claw rumor engine was. Which leaves a pretty anemic book, compared to all the leaks we get for everything else.
There's so little known about the world eaters release at this time that it's too early to judge anything, we have no idea if they will or won't have a mortal unit or anything else.
I expect the World Eaters release to look more like Death Guard than Thousand Sons. The way GW has handled Thousand Sons has been lazy compared to how Death Guard were handled - Death Guard basically have an almost entirely distinct model range to fill out their roster on top of a handful of shared units with Codex CSM. With Thousand Sons its basically the opposite where most of their units are shared with Codex CSM and then they have a handful of unique units on top of it.
chaos0xomega wrote: I expect the World Eaters release to look more like Death Guard than Thousand Sons. The way GW has handled Thousand Sons has been lazy compared to how Death Guard were handled - Death Guard basically have an almost entirely distinct model range to fill out their roster on top of a handful of shared units with Codex CSM. With Thousand Sons its basically the opposite where most of their units are shared with Codex CSM and then they have a handful of unique units on top of it.
Don't forget the fact most of TSons' "unique" models aren't even TSons, but are just AoS models ported over.
So even more units with strike and sweep attacks with the new Knights rules. Is it not strange that the rumors don't mention any changes to the Daemon Prince in that regard.
Sersi wrote: So even more units with strike and sweep attacks with the new Knights rules. Is it not strange that the rumors don't mention any changes to the Daemon Prince in that regard.
Why would they? Daemon Princes didn't get that for either Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
Update post, Corrected the CSM doctrine with the true info.
CSM doctrine:
Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affect different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the names, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
Destruction ''Doctrine''; turn 1: Heavy/grenade/Rapid fire
Massacre ''Doctrine''; turn 2-3: Rapid fire/assault/pistol
Slaughter ''Doctrine''; turn 4-end: pistol/melee/assault
So, turn 4+ melee bonuses a real shame if your Legion has a Slaughter super doctrine.
It's probably like the SM version, where you can choose on turn 3 to switch from massacre to slaughter, and there will inevitably be ways to manipulate it.
While not revealed yet there probably is a way to change the doctrine early. But its another resource we'll have to spend, and its just worse than the Loyalists who get their melee doctrine on turn 3.
Marshal Loss wrote: It's probably like the SM version, where you can choose on turn 3 to switch from massacre to slaughter, and there will inevitably be ways to manipulate it.
Yeah. Looks like we'll have to take a page from the SM tactics book Btw, thanks for the update Sersi !
Remember folks, these are coming from early playtest rules. The leaker doesn't have a finished codex. And gw has a tendency to iterate this stuff right up until they send it off to the printer. That's why the playtestors never see some of the stuff that ends up in the finalized codex.
I would like to know just how old these playtest rules are though.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Remember folks, these are coming from early playtest rules. The leaker doesn't have a finished codex. And gw has a tendency to iterate this stuff right up until they send it off to the printer. That's why the playtestors never see some of the stuff that ends up in the finalized codex.
I would like to know just how old these playtest rules are though.
Sersi wrote: its just worse than the Loyalists who get their melee doctrine on turn 3.
You're assuming that we won't get the option of automatic access on turn 3 when, frankly, we almost certainly will. I'd be shocked if not. It's just the loyalist doctrine with exploding 6's instead of an AP bonus; it will work in the same way.*
*until loyalists get their 9.5 codex in 6 months with a superior bonus
Ok, with the new Dataslate Update the rumoured IW trait is now invalid like Slamanders one. The big question ist if GW will have the old rule printed already and thus if we will see a Day 1 FAQ invalidating once again a great premium rulebook worth 40€ or if they still can adjust it prior to book release.
Again: these rumours are coming from EARLY playtest rules. We don't know if the IW Legion trait we've seen is going to be the final version in the codex or not. These rumours are not coming from a finished codex.
So at the very least we know that he's not being rotated out.
Also that power armour buff from the dataslate is nice and spicy.
That guy never went away. It was the Jump Lord and the IW Warsmith that got "rotated".
He went out of stock for a while and people were acting like he's leaving in response to the rumored CSM Lord options, but if he's staying then CSM lords are likely going to have a few more options at least.
ClockworkZion wrote: Also that power armour buff from the dataslate is nice and spicy.
Why do you think this is just for power armor? As it reads it works for Daemon Princes and anyone else with the Heretic Astartes key works.
And all of our vehicles. Tanks, dreads, flyers, Daemon engines. Hell, even our Cultists get it for now, because they haven't removed the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword from them yet like Death Guard and Thousand Sons. My Fellblade is tougher than a knight now, no invul needed. Groovy.
Sersi wrote: its just worse than the Loyalists who get their melee doctrine on turn 3.
You're assuming that we won't get the option of automatic access on turn 3 when, frankly, we almost certainly will. I'd be shocked if not. It's just the loyalist doctrine with exploding 6's instead of an AP bonus; it will work in the same way.*
*until loyalists get their 9.5 codex in 6 months with a superior bonus
Apparently, we won't work the same as Loyalists. According to 'Chris we don't get a stratagem to charge the timing.
The Dark Apostle has a Prayer that can change the doctrine; which might be alright but we have no info on how it works or its limits. At least as a pray that it won't cost CP, but you can still fail your roll. Then there's the opportunity cost of not being able to use a different prayer without using a stratagem. It also makes the DA a priority target. If he's killed early you're boned. But I do like it being a DA prayer though, for fluff reasons.
Then there is also a Warband trait where you activate all three doctrine for that unit after killing a unit; which doesn't help the name Legions outside of Chosen, maybe.
Sersi wrote: but we have no info on how it works or its limits
That applies to all of this. Literally none of these rumours are written verbatim as they will appear in the codex and many have already been amended numerous times. Having different peripherals doesn't mean that the ability won't function in fundamentally the same way. Still far safer to assume that we will have the ability to choose to switch in turn 3.
edit: as I expected:
Just reread my notes and misread and for chaos doctrines its as following:
Des1
Mas 2-3
Sla 3+
So it would work as space marines, turn 3 you choose either to stay massacre or switch to slaughter.
Also confirmation on the Balefire Acolyte being a unit upgrade:
Speaking of fire, Kill Team’s Balefire Acolyte is sticking around as a unit upgrade for your rank-and-file squads – why should the Thousand Sons be the only ones to put apprentice sorcerers to work? With this insidious PSYKER on-side, you’ll be able to Smite your foes and turn basic troops into psychically-empowered killing machines.**
** What powers will they be using, you ask? Stay tuned…
Looks like a long wait though:
More information is leaking from the Eye of Terror as we speak, so stay tuned to Warhammer Community as we drip-feed the juiciest reveals in the coming months.
BrotherGecko wrote: July then for CSM? Next month is both Knight books and June is 2Horus 2Heresy.
I'd expect early June before July*. The big summer edition releases tend to have pre-order dates in middle to late June with a late June to early July release date, and followup releases to July. And then different stuff starting up again at the end of July or beginning of August. And I doubt Chaos Marines are pushed back that far, which leaves the pre-Horus Heresy release window.
I'm guessing GW is still struggling to get everything into every country in a timely manner (customs still seems to be a nightmare in the US much less in other parts of the world) to launch things in a timely manner.
That said the updated statline is looking pretty tasty and I'm assuming it's 3 attacks without Hateful Assault being a thing anymore.
If its still 'months' out, I'm curious if Armour of Contempt will officially make it into the codex or it'll stick to the dataslate, so they can drop it like a bad potato if it goes over poorly.
I suspect its too late, but if it does, it means they've had AoC in mind for a while.
Voss wrote: If its still 'months' out, I'm curious if Armour of Contempt will officially make it into the codex or it'll stick to the dataslate, so they can drop it like a bad potato if it goes over poorly.
I assume it's already in the book and was likely something they came up with after seeing the problems with the loyalists being too squishy.
Voss wrote: If its still 'months' out, I'm curious if Armour of Contempt will officially make it into the codex or it'll stick to the dataslate, so they can drop it like a bad potato if it goes over poorly.
I assume it's already in the book and was likely something they came up with after seeing the problems with the loyalists being too squishy.
I don't think it's in the book. I'm betting the book has been done for a long time now, it just hasn't lined up with the model production and release window yet.
We started getting reliable rumors about the book before Nids were even announced, which I think lends a little credence to this.
Voss wrote:If its still 'months' out, I'm curious if Armour of Contempt will officially make it into the codex or it'll stick to the dataslate, so they can drop it like a bad potato if it goes over poorly.
I suspect its too late, but if it does, it means they've had AoC in mind for a while.
I'd guess it's in the codex. Putting it in the dataslate was just a way to get it out early, same as the Knights stuff, and a way to make sure that CSM don't have something good that loyalists don't also have. For. One. Damned. Minute.
ClockworkZion wrote:I'm guessing GW is still struggling to get everything into every country in a timely manner (customs still seems to be a nightmare in the US much less in other parts of the world) to launch things in a timely manner.
That said the updated statline is looking pretty tasty and I'm assuming it's 3 attacks without Hateful Assault being a thing anymore.
Probably. Which makes me wonder: will our fw units keep Hateful Assault? Or lose it and gain an additional attack?
Voss wrote: If its still 'months' out, I'm curious if Armour of Contempt will officially make it into the codex or it'll stick to the dataslate, so they can drop it like a bad potato if it goes over poorly.
I assume it's already in the book and was likely something they came up with after seeing the problems with the loyalists being too squishy.
I don't think it's in the book. I'm betting the book has been done for a long time now, it just hasn't lined up with the model production and release window yet.
We started getting reliable rumors about the book before Nids were even announced, which I think lends a little credence to this.
That's what I'm thinking. We've had too much info for too long, and (some) of the wait is release//schedule problems, not printing.
If it did make it into the book, either their schedule is far more broken than I thought, or their printer is overwhelmed and behind.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Probably. Which makes me wonder: will our fw units keep Hateful Assault? Or lose it and gain an additional attack?
CSMs now have (or rather will have) 3 attacks now. Doesn't that pretty much mean that Hateful Assault is gone?
Yes, that's what it looks like. But I was wondering if it would stay for our fw units or if it would be removed and replaced with an additional attack.
ClockworkZion wrote:
tneva82 wrote: If it's in book it means gw came up with it like year ago and been sitting on it. Also curious no leak has mentioned it
Leaks could be from playtesting documents and not the final versions.
Yes, according to Clockworkchris' source, the leaks are coming from early playtest rules, as I keep trying to remind everyone.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Probably. Which makes me wonder: will our fw units keep Hateful Assault? Or lose it and gain an additional attack?
CSMs now have (or rather will have) 3 attacks now. Doesn't that pretty much mean that Hateful Assault is gone?
Yes, that's what it looks like. But I was wondering if it would stay for our fw units or if it would be removed and replaced with an additional attack.
ClockworkZion wrote:
tneva82 wrote: If it's in book it means gw came up with it like year ago and been sitting on it. Also curious no leak has mentioned it
Leaks could be from playtesting documents and not the final versions.
Yes, according to Clockworkchris' source, the leaks are coming from early playtest rules, as I keep trying to remind everyone.
So they playtested book without something big like this? Oh crap. Sounds bad.
And again this would mean gw has been sitting with this rule waiting around a year. No rush to balance things around with balance update lying around for a year...
ArcaneHorror wrote: The daemon blade looks pretty cool, but I'm not sure if the heavy chainaxe is worth it, with it hitting on fours.
Heavy disagree. It's another way to bring multidamage into melee, and I'm 90% sure rerolls/extra attacks will be found in the codex.
Yeah, its basically a trooper's (non-sergeant's) powerfist, and that has happened before in other books (previous editions BT, BA). With 3 attacks base +buffs, I'd agree its probably worth it. Wound other marines on 2+, they only save on 6. Pretty good odds of killing two marines outright, extremely good odds of 1.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Probably. Which makes me wonder: will our fw units keep Hateful Assault? Or lose it and gain an additional attack?
CSMs now have (or rather will have) 3 attacks now. Doesn't that pretty much mean that Hateful Assault is gone?
Yes, that's what it looks like. But I was wondering if it would stay for our fw units or if it would be removed and replaced with an additional attack.
ClockworkZion wrote:
tneva82 wrote: If it's in book it means gw came up with it like year ago and been sitting on it. Also curious no leak has mentioned it
Leaks could be from playtesting documents and not the final versions.
Yes, according to Clockworkchris' source, the leaks are coming from early playtest rules, as I keep trying to remind everyone.
So they playtested book without something big like this? Oh crap. Sounds bad.
And again this would mean gw has been sitting with this rule waiting around a year. No rush to balance things around with balance update lying around for a year...
Remember when demon weapons used to have small downside to compensate for greater power and make them slightly less of an auto-take?
My bad, we don't do these anymore, having to think spoiled netlisting/cherrypicking too much and gave the players weird ideas like CSM being damned slaves to uncaring masters instead of Chaos Clauses showering them with bonuses with no strings attached
ClockworkZion wrote: Also Primaris can reach the top shelf without a stepladder. It's where they keep all the good guns.
Unless you're primaris captain/lieutenant, because sergeants stole the box with melee weapons and hellblasters are hogging the chapter's plasma weapons. Oh, and DA/SW nicked your bolt carbine while BT lifted the crate with the only primaris combi-weapons in existence and refuse to share. Go figure
Unless you're primaris captain/lieutenant, because sergeants stole the box with melee weapons and hellblasters are hogging the chapter's plasma weapons. Oh, and DA/SW nicked your bolt carbine while BT lifted the crate with the only primaris combi-weapons in existence and refuse to share. Go figure
And they say the CSM are supposed to be the greedy backstabbers.
Togusa wrote: So it seems from today's article that we might be several months away from an official Chaos release. I'm guessing maybe August for a release date?
All depends on when HH 2.0 drops. The Open Day is next month and there is a "farewell" gaming event at the very end of June for HH 1 so it could be possible that HH 2.0 is a July release which would mean CSM in June.
Nids for April, both Knights in May, CSM in June, HH 2.0 in July?
I believe we're all caught up other previewed releases now. (underworlds, norse BB, thondia).
So, I'm thinking
Chaos Knight Box, Ash Wastes, then both Knight books.
Cursed City official re-release and expansion announcement
HH or CSM. followed by the other. We know HH is after the event in mid May (the event's whole thing is 'see and paint models' before release), but I can't see this skeletal release schedule stretched past June.
Gaps filled in by...?
I dunno. I legitimately can't think of anything else in the pipe... maybe another rando LotR release?
I wouldn't be shocked by Ash Wastes and/or HH being two week preorders.
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Heavy disagree. It's another way to bring multidamage into melee, and I'm 90% sure rerolls/extra attacks will be found in the codex.
You might be right. And there's always ways to buff BS with a sorcerer or apostle.
Irbis wrote:
Remember when demon weapons used to have small downside to compensate for greater power and make them slightly less of an auto-take?
My bad, we don't do these anymore, having to think spoiled netlisting/cherrypicking too much and gave the players weird ideas like CSM being damned slaves to uncaring masters instead of Chaos Clauses showering them with bonuses with no strings attached
The named weapons still do that, as well as daemon shells. This new weapon strikes me as one simply enhanced by Chaos power instead of actually containing a daemon.
Remember when demon weapons used to have small downside to compensate for greater power and make them slightly less of an auto-take?
My bad, we don't do these anymore, having to think spoiled netlisting/cherrypicking too much and gave the players weird ideas like CSM being damned slaves to uncaring masters instead of Chaos Clauses showering them with bonuses with no strings attached
Yeah, I remember that. I also remember when a basicCSM had a greater selection (8. 9 if they were a Night Lord) of Veteran Skills and could have more of them (as many as you were willing to pay for if you didn't take a Mark) than a loyalist "Veteran" (only ONE, from a selection of 3). I also remember Havocs having the option to take Special Weapons in addition to Heavys, while Devastators could just have Heavys, and Raptors being able to freely fall out of combat, while Assault Marines couldn't. Tell you what, I'll take the "downside" for Daemon Blades if we can have all of that other stuff back. But you don't want that, do you? You only want factions that you don't play to have the downsides, but none of the upsides.
ClockworkZion wrote: Also Primaris can reach the top shelf without a stepladder. It's where they keep all the good guns.
Unless you're primaris captain/lieutenant, because sergeants stole the box with melee weapons and hellblasters are hogging the chapter's plasma weapons. Oh, and DA/SW nicked your bolt carbine while BT lifted the crate with the only primaris combi-weapons in existence and refuse to share. Go figure
Well, you have to understand, primaris are still kinda new, young, wet behind the ears. They have to learn to use all of that stuff first. And, unfortunately, it seems that Cawl put way too much effort into making them bigger, but very little into making them smarter, so they can only concentrate on learning one thing at a time. Poor guys.
ArcaneHorror wrote: The daemon blade looks pretty cool, but I'm not sure if the heavy chainaxe is worth it, with it hitting on fours.
Heavy disagree. It's another way to bring multidamage into melee, and I'm 90% sure rerolls/extra attacks will be found in the codex.
Yeah, its basically a trooper's (non-sergeant's) powerfist, and that has happened before in other books (previous editions BT, BA). With 3 attacks base +buffs, I'd agree its probably worth it. Wound other marines on 2+, they only save on 6. Pretty good odds of killing two marines outright, extremely good odds of 1.
Plus EC will be ignoring that -1. Though noise marines might end up so good you never take legionaries...
(not my mini)
You're missing my point. There is absolutely no logical reason for these particular options. It doesn't conform to either "no model, no rules" or 
thanks 
