Ice_can wrote: Kind of to get the most from the codex you would need to mix and match septs based upon what unit are in a detatchment. Unfortunately most of the name charictors are tau sept.
I'm currently planning tau borkan and farsight as my detachment septs
I was thinking about keeping everything with one Sept just for the unified look, but actually Tau usually paint their armor in the appropriate camouflage for the environment and then have their Sept, Unit and other various markings in their Sept colors, right?
Yeah though technically farsight enclaves are usually depicted in red and gray, but as long as its clear to the other player.
My current plan is painting a unified paint scheme and then different colour base edges for septs. Allowd me to paint my models how I want but makes it clear to my opponents who is what sept.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally I wouldn't build an army around darkstrider but if you have a tau sept formation hes a BS2+ markerlight and allows a tau infantry unit to shoot after falling back and gives them plus one to wound for 6 points and no volley fire. Not an auto include but he could allow a unit of firewarriors to wound evertything under t10 on 4+ not game breaking but could just be the last couple of wounds you need to neutralise the big nasty
I think I’ll probably go with Tau sept for everyone. That said if I did want to vary septs there are a few options. You could keep the same palette but reverse it, for example. Or have a different colour for tertiary symbols like those little lines on suits that apparently mean something or other.
I’m not too sure about the special characters. Longstrike is probably good in a tank list, though he’s also kind of a target. I like Darkstrider most I think - more for his ability to let people fall back and shoot than for the +1 to wound thing. That isn’t bad though - I can imagine just using it on some fire warriors if I can get my warlord with the devastation warlord trait nearby.
Ion pathfinders clock in at 12 ppm. That makes them a prime target for basic anti chaff firepower, but if they live to their turn darkstrider will really help their damage output. The overload profile has a lot of application against high invulnerable save targets.
Railfinders are a little expensive for my tastes. Putting ion rifles on them, on the other hand, is pretty nice. I can handle dumping 52pts into a small unit that can pump out 6 S7 shots, even if it's really squishy.
True! If I ever got the motivation to construct enough Pathfinders, wide-open ionfinder spam would be grand. Then you'd have to figure out something to do with your other 1000pts once you had your 18 units outfitted.
That sounds fine, but it's the 60 Fire Warriors next to them that are pumping out 3 shots a piece out to 21". Are the Pathfinders still high priority? IDK. Tau can force opponents to make a lot of choices about infantry targeting. That said, the cost of the PF unit does impact its place on the priority list, so maybe not pimping them all the way out will keep them on the board longer. Cost-wise I like the Ion Rifle a lot more.
Regarding the 21" triple tap, what do you guys think of starting a bunch of FW in Devilfish for what amounts to a 9" first turn move? That'd likely put you in range of many enemy units, and you'd have some armor for running around blocking movement. Immedaite triple tap range is pretty appealing, even at the cost of a Fish.
I'm planning on playing a league game tomorrow at my local GW store. Haven't played Tau since 7th and just picked up my nice shiny codex this morning. One reason I stayed away during 8th was because the only competitive build looked to be the hoard o' commander list and I wasn't going to spend the money on another 7 or 8 commanders. So here's the restrictions: 750pts and patrol only. I'm looking the following to start which will leave me with 324 points to play with:
After that I'm sort of at a loss in 8E as to where to go. I guess I need some drones to run with coldstar, right? Still need to read up on how those work now.
An amusing use of the Dal'yth strategem I was thinking of is deep striking a unit of 12 shield drones and using the strategem strike and fade to move an extra 6 and charge something / movement block. For 120pts and one CP that is pretty annoying.
@ Milk
I think the Devilfish will be useful for cutting down deployment drops, later game screening / objectives and adding some range. I definitely think it is worth consideration at the least!
@ Necron
You'll want some marker-lights. Pathfinders are an obvious pick. I would recommend some screening in the form of either kroot or stealth suits. Drones can deep strike now. They work much the same as before.
Sadly you only get three troop units in a patrol and I need the firepower So I may have to dust off the stealth suits. And yeah, lots of path finders...I've got a gack ton of those
And for drones what's the new black for hanging with coldstar? Shield, gun or can you have a mix?
Unfortunately none of the drones can keep up with a coldstar suit. Deepstriking drones seams to be the initial choice.
The cold star is your ownly source of anti tank but I can't imagine you'll be seeing much armour but some marker or shield drones will up his survivability a lot.
Played a game with the new codex today. Cyclic Ions are very powerful, both the crisis suit and ghostkeel variants. Now that they're a fixed number of shots on overcharge they put out a lot of S8 shots.
davou wrote: Can the missile/tactical drones in the broadside unit take seeker misiles now?!
No. There's been a style change to the codex, and where our index previously referred to our suits as "Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre" or "Riptide Shas'vre," the codex has uniformly switched to using "any model" or "this model" to refer to the battlesuits.
Ice_can wrote: Unfortunately none of the drones can keep up with a coldstar suit. Deepstriking drones seams to be the initial choice.
The cold star is your ownly source of anti tank but I can't imagine you'll be seeing much armour but some marker or shield drones will up his survivability a lot.
Yeah we're playing on a 4x4 table so you don't have to go far. Figure after the initial DS he'll be dead in a turn or two anyway Although my other list is IG which has Pask and two russes so you never know what you'll run into...
How would y'all recommend running crisis suits? I've been wanting to get a Tau army and the start collecting seems (of course) a good place to start. I already got three broadsides cause they were for a good price so I think I've got anti-armor already covered.
GreatGranpapy wrote: How would y'all recommend running crisis suits? I've been wanting to get a Tau army and the start collecting seems (of course) a good place to start. I already got three broadsides cause they were for a good price so I think I've got anti-armor already covered.
Magnetize them so you can switch out the weapons at will. Crisis suits are overcosted for what they do, but hopefully that will change at some point. I don't think there is one particular loadout that is way ahead of the others, hence why I think magnets are a good idea. Plus they are really easy to magnetize.
Mandragola wrote: I think I’ll probably go with Tau sept for everyone. That said if I did want to vary septs there are a few options. You could keep the same palette but reverse it, for example. Or have a different colour for tertiary symbols like those little lines on suits that apparently mean something or other.
Those lines are actually the Sept markings. The colours of those stripes and symbols denote the Sept, not the armour colour. Tau are very practical - their armour is almost always painted in camouflage based on their location.
You'll want some marker-lights. Pathfinders are an obvious pick. I would recommend some screening in the form of either kroot or stealth suits. Drones can deep strike now. They work much the same as before.
Am I missing something or is the limitation on XV86s taking CIBs now removed?
If that's the case, 4xCIBs on an XV86 are
You’re missing something. In the wargear list at the start of the army list there’s a * by the CIB. It says at the bottom that coldstars aren’t allowed CIBs.
Also, riptides aren’t allowed shield generators - though the note saying that is in the shield generator’s rules - not in the wargear list or the riptide’s datasheet.
So they make you work to find the rules, but they are in there!
My enhanced edition book says that the cost of wargear isn’t included in the cost of named characters or drones - which I’m pretty sure is a mistake.
I think crisis are in a good spot now. People always just take the dmg/per Point into consideration, but you also have to think about wounds, mobility, tactics and general use in a game. A unit of 3 CIB crisis suits with drones is great to grab a backfield objective and can deal a suprising amount of firepower. (even more so with 5 ML). They are highly mobile with their 8'' move and can be accompanied by 6 drones of your choice. I still prefer 6 gun drones for the additional dmg output against infantry.
In my previous games (pre codex) I used this exact same setup to harrass backfield units of my enemies (devastators, light vehicles etc.) and they always got their job done. The setup also allowed me to hunt down monstrous creatures or terminators, depending on the situation. They are highly adaptable and therfore invaluable for me. 36 S8 shots is NOTHING to laugh about, no matter what you shoot at.
The ONLY issue I have is, D D3 instead of flat D2.
I might even consider Plasma Crisis now when playing Bork'an. The additional range is specially good on those.
PS: am i the only one that things that this is the best codex we had for a long time? - There are very few "auto take" units as well as very few "shelf units". - All the septs are great and offer so many different tactics. It's often very hard to decide which sept to take, they all have their spot. - The point reductions gave many units a new spot in our armies (or they gained their old spot back :-P)! Talkign about riptides, Devilfish and Stormsurges as well as Firewarriors and Kroot. - No more spamming commanders. This is very healthy for the game in my oppinion, because we all know "that guy" even in friendly games. And be honest: 3 or more Fusionstars in a competitive list is VERY evil. - The fluff is great (I know many of you dont care about this, I do )
Am I missing something or is the limitation on XV86s taking CIBs now removed?
If that's the case, 4xCIBs on an XV86 are
You’re missing something. In the wargear list at the start of the army list there’s a * by the CIB. It says at the bottom that coldstars aren’t allowed CIBs.
Also, riptides aren’t allowed shield generators - though the note saying that is in the shield generator’s rules - not in the wargear list or the riptide’s datasheet.
So they make you work to find the rules, but they are in there!
My enhanced edition book says that the cost of wargear isn’t included in the cost of named characters or drones - which I’m pretty sure is a mistake.
OH. Drat. I was looking at the ranged weapons/support systems reference list in the back. oh well. 4xCIBs on an XV85 it is.... haha.
Surprised not to see more discussion on how valuable Kroot are now. Troop choice at 5/PPM that gets a scout move. Cannot leave home with out at least 2 units to push back alpha strike armies.
Aeri wrote: I think crisis are in a good spot now.
People always just take the dmg/per Point into consideration, but you also have to think about wounds, mobility, tactics and general use in a game.
A unit of 3 CIB crisis suits with drones is great to grab a backfield objective and can deal a suprising amount of firepower. (even more so with 5 ML). They are highly mobile with their 8'' move and can be accompanied by 6 drones of your choice. I still prefer 6 gun drones for the additional dmg output against infantry.
In my previous games (pre codex) I used this exact same setup to harrass backfield units of my enemies (devastators, light vehicles etc.) and they always got their job done. The setup also allowed me to hunt down monstrous creatures or terminators, depending on the situation. They are highly adaptable and therfore invaluable for me.
36 S8 shots is NOTHING to laugh about, no matter what you shoot at.
The ONLY issue I have is, D D3 instead of flat D2.
I might even consider Plasma Crisis now when playing Bork'an. The additional range is specially good on those.
PS: am i the only one that things that this is the best codex we had for a long time?
- There are very few "auto take" units as well as very few "shelf units".
- All the septs are great and offer so many different tactics. It's often very hard to decide which sept to take, they all have their spot.
- The point reductions gave many units a new spot in our armies (or they gained their old spot back :-P)! Talkign about riptides, Devilfish and Stormsurges as well as Firewarriors and Kroot.
- No more spamming commanders. This is very healthy for the game in my oppinion, because we all know "that guy" even in friendly games. And be honest: 3 or more Fusionstars in a competitive list is VERY evil.
- The fluff is great (I know many of you dont care about this, I do )
I think you ARE the only person I have heard say that lol.
-There are definitely many units that are not good enough to take (Hammerhead, devilfish, vespid, crisis with anything but CIB)
-Several of the septs are worthless (Vior'la, Dal'yth, Farsight) and the buffs are much worse than what other armies got.
-There was only a need for a points reduction in the first place because they jacked the price of specific units out of control in the index (riptide). They did not decrease the cost of crisis suits at all even though they are in desperate need and they even increased cost of gun drones by 50%.
-Yeah healthy for the game if EVERY army had to abide by this rule. But as of now we are the only one.
buddha wrote: Surprised not to see more discussion on how valuable Kroot are now. Troop choice at 5/PPM that gets a scout move. Cannot leave home with out at least 2 units to push back alpha strike armies.
Kroot are really awesome... except you can't take units over 10 unless you want to be ready to blow 2 CP to keep them from melting to morale. Even a single casualty puts them at risk of losing more to morale, and with only a 20 body unit limit, it's unrealistic to run big units that are daisy chained to an ethereal.
I tend to agree that this is one of our most decent books. Usually Tau internal balance is hot garbage so the lists tend to span things (Riptides, Commanders, Crisis suits waaaay back in the day) and that to me is a bad book. We may struggle a bit at tournaments with this one but it's got better balance than the last 2-3 books. Overall the army is not as strong as it was in 7th but the only reason for that was the borderline criminal Riptide.
Yeah Dalyth and Farsight tenets are a bit difficult to make work, but not impossible. I don't tend to see a lot of variety with different traits from other books at tournaments so we're not really worse off there. I'd rather see some variety than everyone taking the -1 to hit trait.
You'll want some marker-lights. Pathfinders are an obvious pick. I would recommend some screening in the form of either kroot or stealth suits. Drones can deep strike now. They work much the same as before.
Why stealth suits as a screen?
Stealth suits have proper infiltration rule and a -1 to hit, plus the fly rule. More expensive screen but they can’t be easily surrounded and locked up by charging units denying you a turn of shooting.
I tend to agree that the book has good internal balance. The right units were buffed and/or needed, more or less - with some exceptions. Crisis suits and railheads are still off, though ionheads are great. I’ve experimented with quite a lot of approaches without yet fixing on anything that’s obviously best - which is good.
I also think plasma suits could be ok - if not all that awesome. Crisis suits are a good place to put drone controllers and I think gun and marker drones wil still be useful. There’s obviously a very strong case for running suits as Farsight enclave, though many of the enclaves have merit. Sacea doesn’t get mentioned much but is pretty solid for big suits, ionheads etc.
Ionheads lead by longstrike look good aslong as you can mitigate the alphastike lists.
Farsight vangaurd for suits seams like the obvious choice for a manata stike element. A large suit unit with the strategum hitting on 3's without markerlights, add in some markerlights and you can get that down to 2+ rerolling ones to really bring the pain.
Vespid and piranhas are the worst units of the codex to me so far.
Sacea is excellent for firesight marksmen. 5 man strike squads with 1 markerlight, 3 man stealth teams with 1 fusion, and ethereals, in addition to high power-low volume shooting. This makes it a great choice for a cheap CP/Markerlight battalion.
One major bummer iis Crisis Suits min squad size of 3. Taking 1 was so much better tactically. Whether it was dropping double/triple fusion or a cheap drone controller
Ice_can wrote: Ionheads lead by longstrike look good aslong as you can mitigate the alphastike lists.
Farsight vangaurd for suits seams like the obvious choice for a manata stike element. A large suit unit with the strategum hitting on 3's without markerlights, add in some markerlights and you can get that down to 2+ rerolling ones to really bring the pain.
Vespid and piranhas are the worst units of the codex to me so far.
Aun’Shi deserves the missing letter t at the end it’s so bad. Railgun on a Hammerhead shooting - one shot? Convocation of the Elements - underwhelming. Photon grenades don’t stack.
Ice_can wrote: Ionheads lead by longstrike look good aslong as you can mitigate the alphastike lists.
Farsight vangaurd for suits seams like the obvious choice for a manata stike element. A large suit unit with the strategum hitting on 3's without markerlights, add in some markerlights and you can get that down to 2+ rerolling ones to really bring the pain.
Vespid and piranhas are the worst units of the codex to me so far.
Longstrike can easily be hidden behind LoS blocking terrain and still move and fire with BS 2+ against anything without negative to hit abilities thanks to his Hammerhead aura buff working on himself as well (giving him BS 1+). With his supercharged Rail Gun (33% chance for D3 MWs and wounds basically everything on 2+), buffed SMS and magic seeker missiles he has the most punch out of any Hammerhead formation anyway.
Also did you even read the Vespid entry?
14 points for 18" Assault 2 S5 AP -2 (!) with deep strike, 14" movement, T4 with a 4+ save is a great buy. Awesome backfield harassment unit and a nightmare for any MEQ player.
They fly, have LD8 and the infantry keyword, so they even get 3+ saves in cover. They will always be where you want them to be. They can slaughter almost all backfield infantry/arty units and even effectively tie down AT vehicles in combat in a pinch. And unlike say breachers they come with their own transportation, so you can easily throw a 5-6 bug strong unit into any list (5 of them are only 70 points).
I literally fail to see any downside to them, besides them being metal models with a rather high $ price.
They easily beat Tactical Gun Drone units at the cheap backfield harassment job.
After more than 10 years of being a meme unit methinks that people don't even check their data sheet anymore and just go on claiming that they are a bad unit even if they totally are not.
Longstrike and Hammerhead spam could be reasonably viable now. I'm waiting on the March CA update to make a call on that front. The twin HBC variant could be stellar, and there's hope for the twin plasma, as well. In any event, buffed Ionheads are strong enough to be useful when they're hitting on 2s. I'm not sure I'd call them competitive, but they're strong.
I'm quite interested in running a decked-out CIB Crisis Bomb. It's outrageously expensive for 1 unit, but man, it'll dish the pain on the turn you drop. Assuming 5 markers and appropriate strat support, you're rerolling 2s to hit and 2s or 3s to wound with 81 shots. Against T7/3+, that's an average of 70 dmg. Unless you roll like absolute trash, you're probably going to clear just about everything in range. Attached gun drones clear screens and hopefully allow you a nice repeat performance the following turn.
MilkmanAl wrote: Longstrike and Hammerhead spam could be reasonably viable now. I'm waiting on the March CA update to make a call on that front. The twin HBC variant could be stellar, and there's hope for the twin plasma, as well. In any event, buffed Ionheads are strong enough to be useful when they're hitting on 2s. I'm not sure I'd call them competitive, but they're strong.
I'm quite interested in running a decked-out CIB Crisis Bomb. It's outrageously expensive for 1 unit, but man, it'll dish the pain on the turn you drop. Assuming 5 markers and appropriate strat support, you're rerolling 2s to hit and 2s or 3s to wound with 81 shots. Against T7/3+, that's an average of 70 dmg. Unless you roll like absolute trash, you're probably going to clear just about everything in range. Attached gun drones clear screens and hopefully allow you a nice repeat performance the following turn.
Maybe drop Farsight himself with them as a scarecrow. He hits hard in melee and has the nice ability to heroically intervene from 6" away. Plus he can be the one who pops the strats since his shooting is meh anyway.
If you wanted to do the crisis bomb thing as a vanguard, what elites do you take in addition to the big suit unit? Stealth suits? Firesight marksmen? Dare I say it, more Crisis?
I think Ragnar must be up late posting after a raucous bar binge. Vespids are not hitting or wounding much MEQ at BS4. They are not only whiffing big time on offense, they are dying like flies with a single wound and 4+ save. They are expensive and situational at best. Not seeing awesome or great buy here, sleep it off buddy.
Ice_can wrote: Ionheads lead by longstrike look good aslong as you can mitigate the alphastike lists.
Farsight vangaurd for suits seams like the obvious choice for a manata stike element. A large suit unit with the strategum hitting on 3's without markerlights, add in some markerlights and you can get that down to 2+ rerolling ones to really bring the pain.
Vespid and piranhas are the worst units of the codex to me so far.
Longstrike can easily be hidden behind LoS blocking terrain and still move and fire with BS 2+ against anything without negative to hit abilities thanks to his Hammerhead aura buff working on himself as well (giving him BS 1+). With his supercharged Rail Gun (33% chance for D3 MWs and wounds basically everything on 2+), buffed SMS and magic seeker missiles he has the most punch out of any Hammerhead formation anyway.
Also did you even read the Vespid entry?
14 points for 18" Assault 2 S5 AP -2 (!) with deep strike, 14" movement, T4 with a 4+ save is a great buy. Awesome backfield harassment unit and a nightmare for any MEQ player.
They fly, have LD8 and the infantry keyword, so they even get 3+ saves in cover. They will always be where you want them to be. They can slaughter almost all backfield infantry/arty units and even effectively tie down AT vehicles in combat in a pinch. And unlike say breachers they come with their own transportation, so you can easily throw a 5-6 bug strong unit into any list (5 of them are only 70 points).
I literally fail to see any downside to them, besides them being metal models with a rather high $ price.
They easily beat Tactical Gun Drone units at the cheap backfield harassment job.
After more than 10 years of being a meme unit methinks that people don't even check their data sheet anymore and just go on claiming that they are a bad unit even if they totally are not.
One thing people are missing with Vespid, is that they benefit from markerlights. This is huge buff.
The markerlights entry says T'au Empire units which Vespd and Kroot both have. And there is only a restriction on the auxilary units not getting Sept bonuses.
Another unit whose bubble buff is T'au Empire is the ethereal and his leadership and evocation of elements.
A Kroot kill squad (2-10 carnivores, 12 hounds, shaper) with an ethereal is cheap and survivable with the 6+ ignore wounds from the ethereal. This squad comes in around 240ish points and is fast so they typically get focused on. With the 3 markerlights the carnivores are Imperial Fist bolter shooting with ignore cover, reroll 1's for both shooting and wounding (shaper bubble), and have leadership 9 (10 if ethereal is secsea).
Last night I did a Tau on Tau battle, I went very infantry heavy while my opponent was Suit heavy. It came down to bottom of turn 5 and if I could table him for who would win. We were close to drawing because I surrounded his surge who proceeded to blow up and take the last wounds off all my squads that were there. Was a filmed report so can share if interested when it is posted.
Ministry wrote: I think Ragnar must be up late posting after a raucous bar binge. Vespids are not hitting or wounding much MEQ at BS4. They are not only whiffing big time on offense, they are dying like flies with a single wound and 4+ save. They are expensive and situational at best. Not seeing awesome or great buy here, sleep it off buddy.
1. Markerlights work on Vespids and a single one has them re-rolling 1s and you can easily deep strike them close enough to ignore the usual '-1 to hit' modifiers. Once you get past the hitting, S5 and AP -2 makes forcing saves easy. They sure as heck deal more damage against MEQ than Stealth Suits do, eh? Run the math.
2. You do realize you can deep-strike Vespids straight into cover for a 3+ save against shooting, or on top of buildings to minimize the risk of getting charged? What sort of stats are you expecting for a 14 PPM unit with deep strike and that sort of mobility and firepower anyway? T5, a 2+ save and 3 wounds ?
3. They are cheap, have no problem dealing with the usual soft targets camping in the back (such as ork artillery, devastators or min-sized objective campers). One shooting phase should be more than enough to get their worth back either in points or by seriously disrupting your opponent's backfield.
4. If you are actually clever with positioning them, you can easily deny LoS to other units than the one you want to shoot.
5. They are great late game objective grabbers.
6. Suddenly the other guy has to deal with a threat in his own deployment zone that he can't ignore. You know, catching him with his pants down and forcing him to either waste the fire of his camping Heavy Support on cheap bugs rather than your big guns or pulling back units that are moving against YOUR corner of the table.
Might want to quit that "more sober than thou" attitude, buddy. Unless you lack the imagination to realize the worth of cheap units that can deploy almost everywhere and packs a good punch, bringing Breacher level firepower to the table for a fraction of the cost of Breachers and a Devilfish (not to mention not having to get within 5" for the full damage). Or how do you plan to deal with objective hugging Raven Guard in cover and perhaps even outside of LoS to the rest of your army ?
Sorry, but "I got dis Y'vahra/Coldstar" doesn't suddenly make Vespids a bad unit.
Aeri wrote: You guys need to realize, that there will always be some people who just can't stop crying because there is no "I Win Button" in the codex.
Hey all. Blood Angels is my primary faction but decided to get some xenos, so picked up some Fire Warriors to start out. Gonna be doing some lurking for a while but thought I'd introduce myself.
I played a game against Tau today. He used 3 septs, and used a smattering of different options (devilfish of fire warriors, a few crisis suits, one of the bigger robots, a tank, etc. etc., very take all comers.) and...Wow. Unless he wasn't playing it right, Tau are utter trash still. They barely landed any wounds, and their short range on their standard guns makes it super hard to evade most melee options.
The short range on their standard guns...You mean the 30" range standard pulse rifles that's probably going to be at least 36" and potentially 42" in most competitive armies? You're charging from 42" regularly, are you? In that case, yes, Tau will crumple like wet newspaper to melee.
Seriously, though, range is not a problem for Tau. It sounds like you were up against Breachers, which do, in fact, have a short range. It also sounds like you played a fairly friendly and/or poorly optimized list run by an inexperienced player. Alternatively, he may have just been screwing around trying things out. I can't really think of a reason to have 3 separate septs at once. You fragment your bonuses and destroy any synergy your units might have had that way.
MilkmanAl wrote: The short range on their standard guns...You mean the 30" range standard pulse rifles that's probably going to be at least 36" and potentially 42" in most competitive armies? You're charging from 42" regularly, are you? In that case, yes, Tau will crumple like wet newspaper to melee.
Seriously, though, range is not a problem for Tau. It sounds like you were up against Breachers, which do, in fact, have a short range. It also sounds like you played a fairly friendly and/or poorly optimized list run by an inexperienced player. Alternatively, he may have just been screwing around trying things out. I can't really think of a reason to have 3 separate septs at once. You fragment your bonuses and destroy any synergy your units might have had that way.
He was using different septs to minmax the usefulness of septs within his units. Kind of like taking different marks of chaos on different CSM units. But it did nerf his army considerably for it, it was a large tax just for the sept bonuses. And we played widthwise deployment on a 4x6, so he had 24 inches from me to shoot. Also, I used a couple units of Warp Talons to get the drop on his army, and a rhino and blood slaughterer weaving around cover and buildings to escape LoS from most of his army.
Yeah, that's a tough move to make since you can't use drones from different septs to chump wounds for big suits, which eliminates the main perk keeping our suits viable. I'm sure there's a way to make a multi-sept list work, but it'd certainly require very careful planning and gameplay.
As for dealing with melee stuff that actually gets to you, we're just as frail as ever. The best solution we have is to kill it in overwatch. If that fails, fall back and shoot it more. Granted, with multi-unit overwatch that might hit on 5+, a ton of units that FLY, and a 7pt trooper that dishes out 3 S5 shots within 15" (or 18" or 21"), those aren't exactly awful options. I haven't played a game with the codex rules yet, unfortunately, but I'm confident Tau are not at all "trash tier." I mean, we've got some bad units - looking at you, Piranhas and Skyrays - but we also have some amazing options, including our most fundamental troop.
Aeri wrote: Is somebody here proficient enough in excel to help me build a list building tool?
All i can do is simple additions, but I think it would be cool if you could select units from drop down menus...
Make a list of all the units you want in the drop down box – 1 per cell, all in the same column.
Highlight the blank cells you want to have the drop down box in.
Data Tab > Data Validation
Change the “allow” section from Any Value to List.
Click in the “source” box, then highlight the list of units, then press ok.
This will then give you the drop down options you’re after. If you run out of drop down boxes, or want to move where you have them, it’s a simple case of copying and pasting.
At that point, you’re looking at multiple lists and then lookup formulas.
For example, list 1 would contain all the units and their costs.
List 2 would contain all the weapons/upgrades/options etc and their points cost. (gets messy here as you’d have to list each option for each unit separately to ensure you don’t accidently mix and match (i.e Commander Ion, Commander Fusion, Ghostkeel Fusion, Riptide SMS etc etc). It also means you’ll need to remember how many options each unit can take.
The lookups are then just normal vlookups, taking you’re drop down options and looking them up against the 2 lists to return the points values.
It’s a pain in the arse in terms of setup, but certainly makes things easy once it’s done.
I’m really wary of that kind of stuff. It’s so easy to make a mistake in set up and so hard to spot if you have. The chance of making illegal lists as a result is far too high.
I use excel for list building. I put the units and upgrades in one column and their costs next to them in a separate column. Then just make a cell with the formula =SUM(C:C) and it will total up the costs of all the stuff in column C.
You can also make a cell to see what you’ve got left if you want. Something like =2000-(SUM(C:C)) should do it - for a 2k list.
Or just select the whole column and excel will tell you the sum of all the numbers in it.
This is what I've got so far.
It's not too hard actually, the biggest issue is quality of life features I think.
Right now there is only 1 Unit entry that allows choosing a battlefield role, unit type and quantity of models. (drones will count as wargear)
Wargear has not yet been added, but this will not be too hard either.
I need to find solutions to make an "add entry" button (a simple copy paste macro won't work, you can try copy pasting vertically yourself ^^)
So, after looking through the codex I was curious if anyone had found any mention of anything making use of the Jet Pack keyword, or if it's literally wasted ink on half the entries in the codex.
Deadawake1347 wrote: So, after looking through the codex I was curious if anyone had found any mention of anything making use of the Jet Pack keyword, or if it's literally wasted ink on half the entries in the codex.
I didn't find anything making use of it BUT I did notice a lot more of a deal being made about certain aspects of shipboard fighting and things of that nature for certain Septs/color schemes.
Maybe they're planning on adding Zero-G environmental rules?
Deadawake1347 wrote: So, after looking through the codex I was curious if anyone had found any mention of anything making use of the Jet Pack keyword, or if it's literally wasted ink on half the entries in the codex.
I didn't find anything making use of it BUT I did notice a lot more of a deal being made about certain aspects of shipboard fighting and things of that nature for certain Septs/color schemes.
Maybe they're planning on adding Zero-G environmental rules?
That is reaching a bit, I think.
I think it is just wasted ink, copied over from the index. Maybe somewhere back in the index design notes there's a rule for us to have JSJ on jetpack units which never made it in. A lost post-it note, blown out the window....
Anyway, I've been thinking more about Crisis Bomb options. Given that we can split fire at will, I don't know that I have much problem running a massive 9-suit unit with supporting drones. Clear the trash mobs with gun drones, maybe have some shield drones for awful things like auspex scanning Hellblasters, and blast away at hopefully 3-5 big, juicy targets with your suits. As I mentioned previously, not much is going to stand up to that volume of fire. I'm thinking I'd have a Buffmander with a drone controller nearby to make the drones more lethal, but I can see the value in giving him a couple fusions to have fusion blades (since he'll be FSE, after all!). The rest of the army would be Battalions to build up CP and get objectives. Maybe have a Riptide or Ghostkeel with a VT in case of flyer spam and to handle a backfield incursion.
Deadawake1347 wrote: So, after looking through the codex I was curious if anyone had found any mention of anything making use of the Jet Pack keyword, or if it's literally wasted ink on half the entries in the codex.
I didn't find anything making use of it BUT I did notice a lot more of a deal being made about certain aspects of shipboard fighting and things of that nature for certain Septs/color schemes.
Maybe they're planning on adding Zero-G environmental rules?
That is reaching a bit, I think.
I think it is just wasted ink, copied over from the index. Maybe somewhere back in the index design notes there's a rule for us to have JSJ on jetpack units which never made it in. A lost post-it note, blown out the window....
Sure it's reaching--but Chapter Approved has brought new environment rules.
MilkmanAl wrote:Like, we have to play in space now? WTF?!
Hey, you say that--but it was supposed to be the third of the "Warzone" books way back in the day. We were supposed to have Cities of Death, Planetstrike, and "Deadzone"(space combat).
I would totally be down for a specialized set of rules where zero-G "zones" exist, able to only be traversed by Jetpack or Jump Pack units--or things with Fly.
Ahem...
Anyway, I've been thinking more about Crisis Bomb options. Given that we can split fire at will, I don't know that I have much problem running a massive 9-suit unit with supporting drones. Clear the trash mobs with gun drones, maybe have some shield drones for awful things like auspex scanning Hellblasters, and blast away at hopefully 3-5 big, juicy targets with your suits. As I mentioned previously, not much is going to stand up to that volume of fire. I'm thinking I'd have a Buffmander with a drone controller nearby to make the drones more lethal, but I can see the value in giving him a couple fusions to have fusion blades (since he'll be FSE, after all!). The rest of the army would be Battalions to build up CP and get objectives. Maybe have a Riptide or Ghostkeel with a VT in case of flyer spam and to handle a backfield incursion.
I'm honestly not sure how to run a Crisis Bomb at this point. I just don't know what to run for my Tau, but I have a small(50 Power) game slated on Friday so I'll see what I like there.
Deadawake1347 wrote: So, after looking through the codex I was curious if anyone had found any mention of anything making use of the Jet Pack keyword, or if it's literally wasted ink on half the entries in the codex.
I didn't find anything making use of it BUT I did notice a lot more of a deal being made about certain aspects of shipboard fighting and things of that nature for certain Septs/color schemes.
Maybe they're planning on adding Zero-G environmental rules?
That is reaching a bit, I think.
I think it is just wasted ink, copied over from the index. Maybe somewhere back in the index design notes there's a rule for us to have JSJ on jetpack units which never made it in. A lost post-it note, blown out the window....
Sure it's reaching--but Chapter Approved has brought new environment rules.
MilkmanAl wrote:Like, we have to play in space now? WTF?!
Hey, you say that--but it was supposed to be the third of the "Warzone" books way back in the day. We were supposed to have Cities of Death, Planetstrike, and "Deadzone"(space combat).
I would totally be down for a specialized set of rules where zero-G "zones" exist, able to only be traversed by Jetpack or Jump Pack units--or things with Fly.
Ahem...
Anyway, I've been thinking more about Crisis Bomb options. Given that we can split fire at will, I don't know that I have much problem running a massive 9-suit unit with supporting drones. Clear the trash mobs with gun drones, maybe have some shield drones for awful things like auspex scanning Hellblasters, and blast away at hopefully 3-5 big, juicy targets with your suits. As I mentioned previously, not much is going to stand up to that volume of fire. I'm thinking I'd have a Buffmander with a drone controller nearby to make the drones more lethal, but I can see the value in giving him a couple fusions to have fusion blades (since he'll be FSE, after all!). The rest of the army would be Battalions to build up CP and get objectives. Maybe have a Riptide or Ghostkeel with a VT in case of flyer spam and to handle a backfield incursion.
I'm honestly not sure how to run a Crisis Bomb at this point. I just don't know what to run for my Tau, but I have a small(50 Power) game slated on Friday so I'll see what I like there.
Could of sworn i saw some campaign thing in an older book that was a space station on an asteroid fight. looked really sick. dont forget your helmets.
Desubot wrote: Could of sworn i saw some campaign thing in an older book that was a space station on an asteroid fight. looked really sick. dont forget your helmets.
I think something like that was in the 6th edition BRB. It showed Grey Knights fighting Daemons in space.
I’ve been looking through the book for less obvious stuff, to see if there are any gems in the rough. Probably not, I think!
The sun shark doesn’t seem bad. It isn’t crazily expensive and, if given markerlight support, it can throw out a lot of shots. It’s been significantly improved by the buffs to ion rifles, which should now be thought of as its main armament. And it can carry on dropping bombs all game, if allowed to.
Missile pods remain way too expensive. I’m thinking about having a long-ranged Commander though, to call Kauyon and use the In Unity Devastation warlord trait. One option for this would be a commander with missile pods - and maybe a DC to buff some marker drones.
That said, if you go in for units of 3 broadsides, maybe an unarmed commander just using the CNC node stratagem would be better. Or even Shadowsun, to call Kauyon twice and use the stratagem. She’s stuck with a totally useless warlord trait though.
Overall I think there’s something to be said for the missile pod commander. He’d do some good against stuff like flyers that are hard to hit, and he’d have the range to stick him where his buffs would do most good - not where he needed to go to get in range. He wouldn’t be as suicidal as a CIB or fusion commander, so he might hang onto that VP a bit more often.
It’s hard not to see the guy as a missed opportunity to take better guns though. Arguably I should just make a Fireblade my commander... though then he couldn’t call Kauyon.
Is it just me or are Kroot hounds a bit OP, I mean, for the price of a cultist you get a model with 2 attacks that hit on a 3+, has a -1 AP and an amazing 12" Mov plus potential reroll charge roll. Sure, their Fast Attack Beasts so cant capture and have low Ld of 5 but that seems minimal as far as bad compared to all the extra they have over cultists.
I made a list which I feel is really quite strong. Am I missing something?
It seems to be worded a bit oddly in the codex. Can Crisis suits and Crisis Commanders take the Iridium Battlesuit in addition to the available support systems, or is it part of that support system limit? I was wondering if just running a Crisis Commander to give him access to the 2+ save would be worth it but if that cuts into his hard points then it might not be.
GreatGranpapy wrote: It seems to be worded a bit oddly in the codex. Can Crisis suits and Crisis Commanders take the Iridium Battlesuit in addition to the available support systems, or is it part of that support system limit? I was wondering if just running a Crisis Commander to give him access to the 2+ save would be worth it but if that cuts into his hard points then it might not be.
Iridium is a separate upgrade from support systems or weapons. It does not take a hard point.
Is it worth it at all to take Crisis suits armed with anything other than 3 flamers? In the current edition with both hordes and high volume of fire everywhere it seems better to just take a bunch of them, leave them in manta hold, run up with a stealth suit to drop a homing beacon and go to town with the flames. I've lost a LOT of Boyz to flamer suits like this several times... ... And, now that I'm playing primarily T'au, this seems like the preferable tactic.
SonOfTzu wrote: Is it worth it at all to take Crisis suits armed with anything other than 3 flamers? In the current edition with both hordes and high volume of fire everywhere it seems better to just take a bunch of them, leave them in manta hold, run up with a stealth suit to drop a homing beacon and go to town with the flames. I've lost a LOT of Boyz to flamer suits like this several times... ... And, now that I'm playing primarily T'au, this seems like the preferable tactic.
I think the flamer build seems to be a lot less effective now given that the homing beacon was now changed to be dropped at the beginning of the movement phase, rather than the end. Its much harder to thread that needle and get the beacon within 8" of an enemy unit.
SonOfTzu wrote: Is it worth it at all to take Crisis suits armed with anything other than 3 flamers? In the current edition with both hordes and high volume of fire everywhere it seems better to just take a bunch of them, leave them in manta hold, run up with a stealth suit to drop a homing beacon and go to town with the flames. I've lost a LOT of Boyz to flamer suits like this several times... ... And, now that I'm playing primarily T'au, this seems like the preferable tactic.
So, for 207 points you can get a Crisis unit with 12 flamers in it – but no drones.
However, for 210 points you can get 6 units of 5 Fire Warriors. Vs boyz they both do practically the same average damage, and that is before taking into account markerlights and Fireblade buffs.
Which survives longer vs Orkz is debatable and depends on the orkz.
SonOfTzu wrote: Is it worth it at all to take Crisis suits armed with anything other than 3 flamers? In the current edition with both hordes and high volume of fire everywhere it seems better to just take a bunch of them, leave them in manta hold, run up with a stealth suit to drop a homing beacon and go to town with the flames. I've lost a LOT of Boyz to flamer suits like this several times... ... And, now that I'm playing primarily T'au, this seems like the preferable tactic.
I think the flamer build seems to be a lot less effective now given that the homing beacon was now changed to be dropped at the beginning of the movement phase, rather than the end. Its much harder to thread that needle and get the beacon within 8" of an enemy unit.
Homing beacons are still ok, but not amazing. To be honest I've never been all that convinced by flamer suits. You pay a lot to get a bunch of S4 hits on a unit, and you need to coordinate stuff with the stealths, which is unreliable. It's not as if we really need a lot more of this kind of firepower. What they do provide is a bunch of concentrated damage in one place.
Meanwhile CIB suits actually seem very good. I think I'd be more inclined to just use those.
I also think that plasma suits are probably viable. They aren't all that expensive and they hit reasonably hard.
Overall crisis suits are kind of ok, without being great. They feel a bit below par, perhaps because there's no obvious thing they are great at. The only really bad option seems to be missile pods. A suit with 3 missile pods costs almost as much as a HYMP broadside - it's actually more expensive before you factor in the SMS that thing also has.
Maths on most unbuffed crisis suit weapons comes out on the high side of points per damage on a T5 3+Sv model farsight manta stike strat and markerlights improve them but unbuffed there is better options in the codex. Also trying to thow down enough markerlight on more than one target is a lot of points that will get removed quickly if your opponents got any anti infantry shooting. Riptides ghostkeels and bodyguards realy would have benifited from BS3+. And not needing that 5 markerlights to realy shine. Lots of ok but need support or a game plan to realy shine. The advamtage to manta stike is its one of the few ways we can keep a hard hitting unit from being alpha striked along with commanders.
It feels like you have to make crisis suits work whereas you can just take a riptide for a more consistent choice. Might just be cynical there if someone can show good cost to damage ratio for crisis.
buddha wrote: It feels like you have to make crisis suits work whereas you can just take a riptide for a more consistent choice. Might just be cynical there if someone can show good cost to damage ratio for crisis.
You definitely do have to make crisis suits work. They're a unit that is pretty situational at this point, and it's always a shame when an iconic unit is in that place but it's certainly not uncommon - look at Terminators, Guardians, Wyches, Rubrics, etc. And when that happens, a lot of people are going to want to make them work the best they can, because they like playing those units in the army and don't want to give them up.
fartherthanfar wrote: Is it just me or are Kroot hounds a bit OP, I mean, for the price of a cultist you get a model with 2 attacks that hit on a 3+, has a -1 AP and an amazing 12" Mov plus potential reroll charge roll. Sure, their Fast Attack Beasts so cant capture and have low Ld of 5 but that seems minimal as far as bad compared to all the extra they have over cultists.
I made a list which I feel is really quite strong. Am I missing something?
You are missing something HUGELY important. Battlefield roles. Kroot hounds are fast attack, while cultists/brims/guards/gaunts are all troops. Yes, Hounds ARE stronger than most of them, but they also give a minimal amount of CP compared to their troop counterparts, which in almost anyone's opinion is far more important than having bubblewrap that bites.
For 2k lists most tau lists I've thought of revolve around 2 battalions (the +3CP detachment) for 9 CP plus another detachment as points and units dictate. And hopefully another CP.
I dont need fast attack for CP's I need troops for CP and screening and multiple detachments for commanders.
Supreme comand detachment for stormsurge, otherwise most likely a vanguard detachment. Or go full cheese with 3 battalions for 12 CP.
It's not Guard CP insanity but its a reasonable number, but with useful stratageums I can see burning through alot.
buddha wrote: It feels like you have to make crisis suits work whereas you can just take a riptide for a more consistent choice. Might just be cynical there if someone can show good cost to damage ratio for crisis.
You definitely do have to make crisis suits work. They're a unit that is pretty situational at this point, and it's always a shame when an iconic unit is in that place but it's certainly not uncommon - look at Terminators, Guardians, Wyches, Rubrics, etc. And when that happens, a lot of people are going to want to make them work the best they can, because they like playing those units in the army and don't want to give them up.
I'm actually having a hard time justifying them in a list using just Power(that's right, deal with it!). It's 12 Power for 3 Crisis Suits...or 10 Power for a Ghostkeel. Or 12 Power can get me 2 units of 3 Stealths or a unit of 6 Stealths.
Ice_can wrote: For 2k lists most tau lists I've thought of revolve around 2 battalions for 9 CP plus another detachment as points and units dictate.
I dont need fast attack for CP's I need troops for CP and screening and multiple detachments for commanders.
If you’re going for 2 battalions, you might as well just go for a brigade.
You’re likely going to want things from the other force org slots in your army anyway, so you might as well put it all together. Even with a brigade, you’re prob going to have enough points left over for another detachment of some kind.
Well CIB suits do work, on the pure maths. They have a fantastic damage/cost ratio - especially against stuff with invulnerable saves.
They are also good targets for some buffs, like the CNC node and ignore cover stratagems. CIB ones in particular benefit from the Farsight +1 to hit, because it means they can't overheat.
They work really well with drones too. You can have them deep strike in with their own drones, reducing your drop count, or with tactical drone units in a brigade. They give you a cheap slot for a DC and the drones protect them in return. It may actually be worth having an iridium suit in the squad to tank, as hits get passed to drones only after saves have been taken.
Bigger units look quite intriguing. You can magnify the effect of those stratagems quite a bit by taking bigger units - though of course that starts to look a bit risky. One of the good things about this is it gives you the option of a much lower drop-count than Tau would usually have - increasing your chances of going first.
There's definitely an element of wanting to make them work, I agree. But in a game with a very strong alpha strikes around, any unit that's able to avoid them and hit with a seriously powerful strike of its own has to be worth looking at.
It really seems like there are a lot of viable ways to play Tau now. The most obvious option is probably a brigade, but that's far from the only way to go. All kinds of approaches look viable. It's a really fun codex to write lists for, I think. The only hard and fast rule seems to be ion ftw.
Ice_can wrote: For 2k lists most tau lists I've thought of revolve around 2 battalions for 9 CP plus another detachment as points and units dictate.
I dont need fast attack for CP's I need troops for CP and screening and multiple detachments for commanders.
If you’re going for 2 battalions, you might as well just go for a brigade.
You’re likely going to want things from the other force org slots in your army anyway, so you might as well put it all together. Even with a brigade, you’re prob going to have enough points left over for another detachment of some kind.
There are good reasons against this. Commanders are the most obvious of these.
Ice_can wrote: For 2k lists most tau lists I've thought of revolve around 2 battalions for 9 CP plus another detachment as points and units dictate.
I dont need fast attack for CP's I need troops for CP and screening and multiple detachments for commanders.
If you’re going for 2 battalions, you might as well just go for a brigade.
You’re likely going to want things from the other force org slots in your army anyway, so you might as well put it all together. Even with a brigade, you’re prob going to have enough points left over for another detachment of some kind.
I disagree - tau elites are expensive and still aren't really up to par. Riptide isn't worth it still (an ion head has practically the same damage output for 130 points less). Ghost keel is good but you can't afford to bring 3 of them. Everything else is really overpriced or do a job you don't really need done. You can take far-sight marksmen but really - they aren't worth a dang thing and just feel like a tax.
In 3 batallions the only unit you are taking which you don't want to is a single etheral or 2nd firebalde as the 9 required troop units are actually good units and not taxes. My 3x battalion takes 3x commanders long strike and 2 fire blades - 9 5x firewarriors. Same number of command points as a brigade but whats best is - 3 commanders.
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV1 Gun Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
The idea is to deploy the gun drones and commanders into reserve first, then start building a castle using the broadsides, with riptides on flank, marker drones around them to abblate wounds too later on, and then infiltrate the stealth and ghost to either deny drops or counter a juicy target.
Kinda low on CP, but I didn't wanna put troops in there if I could avoid it and break style.
Xenomancers wrote: You can take far-sight marksmen but really - they aren't worth a dang thing and just feel like a tax.
Are you kidding me? Sa'cea Vanguard detachment with Commander and 6 Firesight Marksmen gives you access to the Orbital Marker Distribution Uplink Stratagem and provides 6 Markerlights that hit at 3+ rerollable and can't be targeted (and they have a 2+ save in cover too). They are the best source of markerlights in the whole damn codex.
Xenomancers wrote: You can take far-sight marksmen but really - they aren't worth a dang thing and just feel like a tax.
Are you kidding me? Sa'cea Vanguard detachment with Commander and 6 Firesight Marksmen gives you access to the Orbital Marker Distribution Uplink Stratagem and provides 6 Markerlights that hit at 3+ rerollable and can't be targeted (and they have a 2+ save in cover too). They are the best source of markerlights in the whole damn codex.
That's highly debatable. They are very expensive for markerlights and use up 6 drops, seriously reducing the chance you'll get first turn.
I'm not sure what the best way to run markerlights is, but I'm fairly sure that's not it. I guess it could be slightly better if you stuck them all in a tidewall thing, to reduce the drop count, but in that case you may as well use pathfinders. 10 pathfinders in a tidewall cost the same as 6 firesight marksmen on foot.
But 10 pathfinders give you less markerlight hits, are much less reliable (especially against -1 to hit) and get shot off the board by a light breeze. The tidewall also needs a fortification detachment which means you can't take a commander.
The drop count is high that is the main disadvantage, but then it depends on the rest of the army whether it's even worth optimizing for that.
I disagree - tau elites are expensive and still aren't really up to par. Riptide isn't worth it still (an ion head has practically the same damage output for 130 points less). Ghost keel is good but you can't afford to bring 3 of them. Everything else is really overpriced or do a job you don't really need done. You can take far-sight marksmen but really - they aren't worth a dang thing and just feel like a tax.
If you're going for low cost then the FSMs are good. 25 points for a BS3 markerlight that can't be targeted and blown off the table like pathfinders. Plus if you're filling out a brigade you'd want 1 for sniper drones anyway. Sniper Drones are 54 points for a min squad and get the mortal wound on a 6 now. They're a pretty solid character sniper for filling up HS slots that you don't want to put broadsides or hammerheads in.
Ghostkeels got a good buff with the codex. >6 range for their -1 to hit and Cyclic Ion Raker is now a flat 6 shots instead of d6 when overcharging. That's a great buff. I want to say my Ghostkeel came in around 200 points for CIR, 2xFusions, Target Lock, and Shield Gen(only 8 points now)
Stealthsuits are still pretty good. Especially Vior'la. Deep strike a 6 man unit so a horde is the closest unit and shoot twice, 48 shots.
Good points - except that stealths can’t deep strike.
Firesight marksmen are decent but I wouldn’t spam them. If I needed to put markerlights on hard to hit stuff I think I’d use fireblades or Darkstrider and then use the d3+1 hit stratagem.
Marker drones are my favourite way to get markerlight hits - I think. They can deep strike in with crisis suits or deploy with stealths - who in particular don’t mind using up a slot for a DC, as they couldn’t have put a gun there anyway.
There’s quite a lot to be said for pathfinders now though - especially now that ion rifles are so good. A couple of units of them in a tidewall shieldline and gunport would be decent, I think. It’s not a bad place to stick characters too if you want a low drop count.
What about Tetras for Markerlights? In my last game they were the stars of the show......18" move was critcal to get a shot off, but hitting on 5's counters it a lot. (I was lucky and rolled two 6s from my two remaining Tetras to put 6 markers on a must die target).
Da-Rock wrote: What about Tetras for Markerlights? In my last game they were the stars of the show......18" move was critcal to get a shot off, but hitting on 5's counters it a lot. (I was lucky and rolled two 6s from my two remaining Tetras to put 6 markers on a must die target).
feast or famine, with a 60% chance of famine; not for me at all... Shame too cause I own four. I'm hoping FW changes them soon
Ushtarador wrote: But 10 pathfinders give you less markerlight hits, are much less reliable (especially against -1 to hit) and get shot off the board by a light breeze. The tidewall also needs a fortification detachment which means you can't take a commander.
The drop count is high that is the main disadvantage, but then it depends on the rest of the army whether it's even worth optimizing for that.
No - 10 pathfinders doesn't get you less hits. 10 pathfinders gives you 5 hits. equal points in marksmen will give you 3 hits max...because...they are only firing 3 times. That is simple to figure out.
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Mandragola wrote: Good points - except that stealths can’t deep strike.
Firesight marksmen are decent but I wouldn’t spam them. If I needed to put markerlights on hard to hit stuff I think I’d use fireblades or Darkstrider and then use the d3+1 hit stratagem.
Marker drones are my favourite way to get markerlight hits - I think. They can deep strike in with crisis suits or deploy with stealths - who in particular don’t mind using up a slot for a DC, as they couldn’t have put a gun there anyway.
There’s quite a lot to be said for pathfinders now though - especially now that ion rifles are so good. A couple of units of them in a tidewall shieldline and gunport would be decent, I think. It’s not a bad place to stick characters too if you want a low drop count.
I think tau pretty much have to give up having lower drop count unless they are running a full mecha list. Including fortifications has a defacto effect of reducing your max commanders to 2 also.
I think the best way to run marker lights is just to take pathfinders and put them in cover. 3 units of 8 fills your fast attacks for a brigade and it's cheap. Hiding a few in fire warrior squads seems like a good idea too.
Question to everyone - pathfinders have a scout move essentially before the first game turn - what is the order for that? Before or after seize the initiative?
Ushtarador wrote: But 10 pathfinders give you less markerlight hits, are much less reliable (especially against -1 to hit) and get shot off the board by a light breeze. The tidewall also needs a fortification detachment which means you can't take a commander.
The drop count is high that is the main disadvantage, but then it depends on the rest of the army whether it's even worth optimizing for that.
No - 10 pathfinders doesn't get you less hits. 10 pathfinders gives you 5 hits. equal points in marksmen will give you 3 hits max...because...they are only firing 3 times. That is simple to figure out.
Thank you for completely ignoring the context and the post I was referring to?
Point for point they get less hits obviously, but on the other hand the Firesight Marksmen will still be alive even if you don't have first turn, or during the second turn, whereas Pathfinders are easy to eliminate. They also enable the Orbital Markerlight stratagem, and are a must-take if your army contains sniper drones (which incidentally became significantly better now that they deal mortal wounds). Finally, FM are also the second cheapest option behind Kroot hounds to unlock a 1 CP detachment for a third Commander.
Ushtarador wrote: But 10 pathfinders give you less markerlight hits, are much less reliable (especially against -1 to hit) and get shot off the board by a light breeze. The tidewall also needs a fortification detachment which means you can't take a commander.
The drop count is high that is the main disadvantage, but then it depends on the rest of the army whether it's even worth optimizing for that.
No - 10 pathfinders doesn't get you less hits. 10 pathfinders gives you 5 hits. equal points in marksmen will give you 3 hits max...because...they are only firing 3 times. That is simple to figure out.
Thank you for completely ignoring the context and the post I was referring to?
Point for point they get less hits obviously, but on the other hand the Firesight Marksmen will still be alive even if you don't have first turn, or during the second turn, whereas Pathfinders are easy to eliminate. They also enable the Orbital Markerlight stratagem, and are a must-take if your army contains sniper drones (which incidentally became significantly better now that they deal mortal wounds). Finally, FM are also the second cheapest option behind Kroot hounds to unlock a 1 CP detachment for a third Commander.
You literally said that pathfinders give you less hits. I think you might have miss typed it. It needed to be mentioned though because that is the thing that pathfinders have going for them - they give you MORE hits. IMO a fire-blade is a far better tool than a marksmen unless you are looking to use sniper drones because really - who isn't taking lots of fire-warriors?
Pathfinders scout move happens after seize. It's before the first turn and you kind of have to know who has the first turn before going into it. It's great for deploying safely behind a wall and then moving out if you get to go first.
Ice_can wrote: For 2k lists most tau lists I've thought of revolve around 2 battalions for 9 CP plus another detachment as points and units dictate.
I dont need fast attack for CP's I need troops for CP and screening and multiple detachments for commanders.
If you’re going for 2 battalions, you might as well just go for a brigade.
You’re likely going to want things from the other force org slots in your army anyway, so you might as well put it all together. Even with a brigade, you’re prob going to have enough points left over for another detachment of some kind.
I disagree - tau elites are expensive and still aren't really up to par. Riptide isn't worth it still (an ion head has practically the same damage output for 130 points less). Ghost keel is good but you can't afford to bring 3 of them. Everything else is really overpriced or do a job you don't really need done. You can take far-sight marksmen but really - they aren't worth a dang thing and just feel like a tax.
In 3 batallions the only unit you are taking which you don't want to is a single etheral or 2nd firebalde as the 9 required troop units are actually good units and not taxes. My 3x battalion takes 3x commanders long strike and 2 fire blades - 9 5x firewarriors. Same number of command points as a brigade but whats best is - 3 commanders.
I need to run more numbers, but, just from a quick look vs a Rhino, doesn't a nova charged HBC Riptide do double the damage an overcharging Ionhead does? Sure, i get it is at least 100 points more, but, you also get an extra wound and a 2+/3++, alongside a stratagem to always shoot as if you're at full wounds should you need it. It also gives you additional anti horde options.
As for "needing" 3 commanders, i'm not really feeling it right now. Sure, your 4 fusion blasters or 4 CIBs are going to do work, but what happens when i just sack a handful of drones and blast them off the table next turn? Or they kill a Wave Serpent then get ripped apart afterwards - likewise, they can't kill all the Guard tanks in one turn etc etc. And if you want to deep strike them, that's perfectly fine with me, as i'd have already bubble wrapped to ensure you don't get within 18" of my major units.
I'm curious as to what you're spending the other ~950 points of your 3 battalions on. I do agree on the 9 fire warrior squads though - even if mine are in a brigade and a battalion.
Mandragola wrote: Good points - except that stealths can’t deep strike.
Firesight marksmen are decent but I wouldn’t spam them. If I needed to put markerlights on hard to hit stuff I think I’d use fireblades or Darkstrider and then use the d3+1 hit stratagem.
Marker drones are my favourite way to get markerlight hits - I think. They can deep strike in with crisis suits or deploy with stealths - who in particular don’t mind using up a slot for a DC, as they couldn’t have put a gun there anyway.
There’s quite a lot to be said for pathfinders now though - especially now that ion rifles are so good. A couple of units of them in a tidewall shieldline and gunport would be decent, I think. It’s not a bad place to stick characters too if you want a low drop count.
I think tau pretty much have to give up having lower drop count unless they are running a full mecha list. Including fortifications has a defacto effect of reducing your max commanders to 2 also.
I think the best way to run marker lights is just to take pathfinders and put them in cover. 3 units of 8 fills your fast attacks for a brigade and it's cheap. Hiding a few in fire warrior squads seems like a good idea too.
Question to everyone - pathfinders have a scout move essentially before the first game turn - what is the order for that? Before or after seize the initiative?
Biggest difference to me in regards to Pathfinders vs drones is three fold -
You give up additional battlesuit bodyguards
They suffer if you need to move them
They are way easier to remove.
One thing to consider in regards to fortifications is this -
4 markerdrones, a fireblade and a droneport costs 152 points. For 152 points you get 5 markerlights hitting on 2+. If they are all Sa'cea, they are 2+ re-rolling 1 shot per unit for free.
Now, it'll die super fast once your opponent realises what happens, but you can always start it off out of LoS and move into LoS for the Fireblade shot, or just hide and move the drones as they don't suffer the move and shoot penalty.
The question is - is it worth nearly double the points of 10 pathfinders for that 1 turn of markerlight shots?
I also agree that, as T'au you're pretty much always going to be giving up the +1 to go first as most lists will prob be in the region of 20+ drops.
Kdash wrote: One thing to consider in regards to fortifications is this -
4 markerdrones, a fireblade and a droneport costs 152 points. For 152 points you get 5 markerlights hitting on 2+. If they are all Sa'cea, they are 2+ re-rolling 1 shot per unit for free.
Or get 15 marker drones - 5 hits/turn; as soon as you spend 5pts for a drone controller, you're getting more hits! (providing you design in a bit of room for synergy).
Kdash wrote: One thing to consider in regards to fortifications is this -
4 markerdrones, a fireblade and a droneport costs 152 points. For 152 points you get 5 markerlights hitting on 2+. If they are all Sa'cea, they are 2+ re-rolling 1 shot per unit for free.
Or get 15 marker drones - 5 hits/turn; as soon as you spend 5pts for a drone controller, you're getting more hits! (providing you design in a bit of room for synergy).
I agree, it's one or the other - either is going to get you the 5 hits that you want. With drone controller you'll get 3-4 additional hits for that cost.
I may be completely wrong/crazy, but, i'm seeing potential worth in a 70 point tax to turn 7 drops into 1 (5 characters +1 5 man squad + 1 drone squad) that can potentially keep out of LoS and is T7 with 10 wounds. Sure, it can still get alpha struck meaning you loose the drones, but it's no worse than losing x number of pathfinder units first turn, or forcing you to manta strike your drones, leaving you potentially without some protection.
As it stands, my list has 10 markerlights that hit on 2+ and 9 that hit on 4+, in addition to 2 stratagems that give free markerlight hits, meaning i will very reliably get stacks of 5 onto 3 targets for a couple of turns. Any more than that i kinda feel is a waste.
It's either 70 points on an attempt at protection, or 70 points on more markerlights.
Fueli wrote: Pathfinders scout move happens after seize. It's before the first turn and you kind of have to know who has the first turn before going into it. It's great for deploying safely behind a wall and then moving out if you get to go first.
So you have about a 40% chance to go first If you have less drops than the opponent. So in 40% of your games pathfinders are going to be able to pregame move right next you your commander (who should be standing right next to your out of LOS cover your path finders are in) Then you have twin linked 4+ to hit markers for 8 points a pop. That's what I am going for. If it's a shooting gun line that can wreck my markers I'll hide them and eat the -1 to hit first turn. It will probably just mean that only 2 targets get lit instead of 3.
Ice_can wrote: For 2k lists most tau lists I've thought of revolve around 2 battalions for 9 CP plus another detachment as points and units dictate.
I dont need fast attack for CP's I need troops for CP and screening and multiple detachments for commanders.
If you’re going for 2 battalions, you might as well just go for a brigade.
You’re likely going to want things from the other force org slots in your army anyway, so you might as well put it all together. Even with a brigade, you’re prob going to have enough points left over for another detachment of some kind.
I disagree - tau elites are expensive and still aren't really up to par. Riptide isn't worth it still (an ion head has practically the same damage output for 130 points less). Ghost keel is good but you can't afford to bring 3 of them. Everything else is really overpriced or do a job you don't really need done. You can take far-sight marksmen but really - they aren't worth a dang thing and just feel like a tax.
In 3 batallions the only unit you are taking which you don't want to is a single etheral or 2nd firebalde as the 9 required troop units are actually good units and not taxes. My 3x battalion takes 3x commanders long strike and 2 fire blades - 9 5x firewarriors. Same number of command points as a brigade but whats best is - 3 commanders.
I need to run more numbers, but, just from a quick look vs a Rhino, doesn't a nova charged HBC Riptide do double the damage an overcharging Ionhead does? Sure, i get it is at least 100 points more, but, you also get an extra wound and a 2+/3++, alongside a stratagem to always shoot as if you're at full wounds should you need it. It also gives you additional anti horde options.
As for "needing" 3 commanders, i'm not really feeling it right now. Sure, your 4 fusion blasters or 4 CIBs are going to do work, but what happens when i just sack a handful of drones and blast them off the table next turn? Or they kill a Wave Serpent then get ripped apart afterwards - likewise, they can't kill all the Guard tanks in one turn etc etc. And if you want to deep strike them, that's perfectly fine with me, as i'd have already bubble wrapped to ensure you don't get within 18" of my major units.
I'm curious as to what you're spending the other ~950 points of your 3 battalions on. I do agree on the 9 fire warrior squads though - even if mine are in a brigade and a battalion.
Mandragola wrote: Good points - except that stealths can’t deep strike.
Firesight marksmen are decent but I wouldn’t spam them. If I needed to put markerlights on hard to hit stuff I think I’d use fireblades or Darkstrider and then use the d3+1 hit stratagem.
Marker drones are my favourite way to get markerlight hits - I think. They can deep strike in with crisis suits or deploy with stealths - who in particular don’t mind using up a slot for a DC, as they couldn’t have put a gun there anyway.
There’s quite a lot to be said for pathfinders now though - especially now that ion rifles are so good. A couple of units of them in a tidewall shieldline and gunport would be decent, I think. It’s not a bad place to stick characters too if you want a low drop count.
I think tau pretty much have to give up having lower drop count unless they are running a full mecha list. Including fortifications has a defacto effect of reducing your max commanders to 2 also.
I think the best way to run marker lights is just to take pathfinders and put them in cover. 3 units of 8 fills your fast attacks for a brigade and it's cheap. Hiding a few in fire warrior squads seems like a good idea too.
Question to everyone - pathfinders have a scout move essentially before the first game turn - what is the order for that? Before or after seize the initiative?
Biggest difference to me in regards to Pathfinders vs drones is three fold -
You give up additional battlesuit bodyguards
They suffer if you need to move them
They are way easier to remove.
One thing to consider in regards to fortifications is this -
4 markerdrones, a fireblade and a droneport costs 152 points. For 152 points you get 5 markerlights hitting on 2+. If they are all Sa'cea, they are 2+ re-rolling 1 shot per unit for free.
Now, it'll die super fast once your opponent realises what happens, but you can always start it off out of LoS and move into LoS for the Fireblade shot, or just hide and move the drones as they don't suffer the move and shoot penalty.
The question is - is it worth nearly double the points of 10 pathfinders for that 1 turn of markerlight shots?
I also agree that, as T'au you're pretty much always going to be giving up the +1 to go first as most lists will prob be in the region of 20+ drops.
Haven't actually played a game yet - all theory.
I think something like 3 railsides
2 Ion heads (one is long strike)
and a ghostkeel
are what I will build around
I've also toyed with using a skyray - 6 twinlinked missles turn 1 and then handing out 2+ to hit marker lights on fly keyword after that is real nice. Plus no one will want to shoot at it once it's dumped it's missles. lol.
Kdash wrote: One thing to consider in regards to fortifications is this -
4 markerdrones, a fireblade and a droneport costs 152 points. For 152 points you get 5 markerlights hitting on 2+. If they are all Sa'cea, they are 2+ re-rolling 1 shot per unit for free.
Or get 15 marker drones - 5 hits/turn; as soon as you spend 5pts for a drone controller, you're getting more hits! (providing you design in a bit of room for synergy).
Not sure what you mean by 6 twinlinked missles, but in all seriousness longstrike is a better place for seeker missiles as is any hammerhead in his buff zone as thats hitting on 2's which is money every time throw in a markerlight and its 2's rerolling ones.
Battallion =coldstar, cadrefireblade and 3 5man firewarriors.
I'm playing around with longstike railgun and 2 ionheads supporting tau battalion, can'tdecied if borkan or tau for HBC riptide battalion.
I realy want to try a farsight crisis bomb as I realy like the idea of having units off board for turn 1 safety. And I think farsight is cool.
Though if dalyth sept trait worked on opponents turn 1 I might consider it but only working on turn 2, makes it real bad IMHO.
Longstrike should always have seeker missiles, I think. He doubles the number of markerlights on a target, so just one light lets him fire them, hitting on a 2+ and rerolling 1s - with +1 to wound vehicles and monsters. That feels like an ok use of 10 points, to me.
It’s harder to justify the railgun. To be fair, his +1 to wound does increase the chance of doing d3 mortal wounds - and the focused fire stratagem can make that a 4+. And I’d really love it if railguns were good.
But they are not. Ion cannons are far better and, inexplicably, cheaper. Every one of its d6 shots is nearly a railgun shot.
Finally don’t forget that his sms also gets +1 to wound vehicles and monsters, so it’s often worth firing at them. Might well do a couple of damage extra.
fartherthanfar wrote: Is it just me or are Kroot hounds a bit OP, I mean, for the price of a cultist you get a model with 2 attacks that hit on a 3+, has a -1 AP and an amazing 12" Mov plus potential reroll charge roll. Sure, they're Fast Attack Beasts so cant capture and have low Ld of 5 but that seems minimal as far as bad compared to all the extra they have over cultists.
I made a list which I feel is really quite strong. Am I missing something?
You are missing something HUGELY important. Battlefield roles. Kroot hounds are fast attack, while cultists/brims/guards/gaunts are all troops. Yes, Hounds ARE stronger than most of them, but they also give a minimal amount of CP compared to their troop counterparts, which in almost anyone's opinion is far more important than having bubblewrap that bites.
I dont think I missed it as I mentioned they are Fast Attack beasts, I just dont think it justifies the amazing worth of stats vs price. troops are so easy to get in Tau with amazing Fire Warrior units of 5 models coming at only 35pts so getting 3 battalions is a breeze (as shown in the list I posted)
First turn slow bubble wrap is nice and all but with Fusion Coldstar Commander moving as fast as they do and needing to get up close to the enemy, they need their bubble wrap to be fast too to take the shots away from them. A 4pts models with 12" move sounds amazing synergistically, the fact they also deal decent damage in close combat is an extra cherry on the top that wasn't even necessary but just brings them to the OP level.
Sure, Kroot hounds can't grab objectives but for everything else they do have, and good variety of other models that can grab objectives instead and fill the troop slots with minimal points required as investments in hounds since they are so cheap (60 hounds costs only 240pts!!!) and troops too being cheap, I'm wondering why people aren't tripping balls on these guys.
Honestly, I think it has a lot to do with actual cost of the models. Hands up, anyone, who feels like it's worthwhile to spend $375 on that swarm of 60 hounds mentioned above. Even if you get them...uh... elsewhere, it's still going to run you about half that. If you were really selling out on the horde concept, you'd need at least twice that many. I mean, I think it'd be a viable strategy, but you'd better have some freaking deep pockets and a TON of patience to assemble all that resin.
What's the verdict on the Stormsurge? I'm thinking that one with the Pulse Driver Cannon, ATS, Counterfire Defense System and Shields might be pretty nasty, especially if taken in T'au sept (overwatching on 5's is NASTY with this many shots). Destroyer missiles are still lame, but then again they are one of the only ways this codex has of dealing mortal wounds (the other being the subpar rail weapons). Of course, it probably also does very well in Sa'cea sept to reroll one missed shot on its heavy weapon or a destroyer missile shot. It does have the Vehicle keyword, meaning that one stratagem that works like Astra Militarum's Defensive Gunners stratagem works for it.
I'm thinking it should find a good spot on turn 1 and drop anchors and then go to town. If you take the Blastcannon hoping to use the 6-damage shot, then obviously you shouldn't anchor, but to me that trick is too easy to avoid on a slow-moving model like a Stormsurge.
Ice_can wrote: Not sure what you mean by 6 twinlinked missles, but in all seriousness longstrike is a better place for seeker missiles as is any hammerhead in his buff zone as thats hitting on 2's which is money every time throw in a markerlight and its 2's rerolling ones.
Battallion =coldstar, cadrefireblade and 3 5man firewarriors.
I'm playing around with longstike railgun and 2 ionheads supporting tau battalion, can'tdecied if borkan or tau for HBC riptide battalion.
I realy want to try a farsight crisis bomb as I realy like the idea of having units off board for turn 1 safety. And I think farsight is cool.
Though if dalyth sept trait worked on opponents turn 1 I might consider it but only working on turn 2, makes it real bad IMHO.
I'm stuck in the same place - borkan is really great but is laking the crucial +1 to wound stratagem.
I really like the idea of lighting up their biggest unit and shooting 6 railguns into it with +1 to wound. A good roll and you will probably get something like 6 mortal wounds in addition to your huge railgun damage as well. Borkan does let you make another number of shots reroll for 2 ion heads - that isn't terrible ether. I think I am going to run tau on everything. The over watch is so crucial I want as much of it as I can get. It really benefits the riptide. I think it's even worth it to give it counter fire defense system over EWO.
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ZergSmasher wrote: What's the verdict on the Stormsurge? I'm thinking that one with the Pulse Driver Cannon, ATS, Counterfire Defense System and Shields might be pretty nasty, especially if taken in T'au sept (overwatching on 5's is NASTY with this many shots). Destroyer missiles are still lame, but then again they are one of the only ways this codex has of dealing mortal wounds (the other being the subpar rail weapons). Of course, it probably also does very well in Sa'cea sept to reroll one missed shot on its heavy weapon or a destroyer missile shot. It does have the Vehicle keyword, meaning that one stratagem that works like Astra Militarum's Defensive Gunners stratagem works for it.
I'm thinking it should find a good spot on turn 1 and drop anchors and then go to town. If you take the Blastcannon hoping to use the 6-damage shot, then obviously you shouldn't anchor, but to me that trick is too easy to avoid on a slow-moving model like a Stormsurge.
I personally like the PBC. In borkan it is interesting what happens to it's threat ranges. At 26 inches it's firing 4x str 12 ap-2 4 damage shots (youll be ap-3 too with ATS). That would drop a few Custodes right in their tracks. Plsu the long range profile goes to 36 dropping str 10 2 damage shots. - 6 of them. Not bad.
Stormsurges went from awful to mediocre, in my opinion. They're probably still pretty overcosted, given that they really only have 1 weapon of consequence which either amounts to ~4 lascannons or...whatever you want to equate the blastcannon with. I think a Borkan blastcannon build is probably the best option, but a Tau version with CDS is certainly amusing. There's also the potential for a Dalyth super-heavy detachment giving an extra cover save, but really nothing that shoots at them is going to be using it's normal, non-invulnerable save.
Missile drones with a DC come in at 40ppd vs a T7 3+ save target. That can be improved significantly by buffs. And if someone lascannons their broadside the drone can always take the hit.
There's an opportunity cost though. Where does the DC go? You can stick it on a broadside but they have a lot of other good options. And the drone itself could be a marker drone instead.
I've built mine now at least. For a long time I just left the bits on the sprue, but now I think there's a case for giving them a try.Unhelpfully, I think they'll turn out to be fine - neither amazing or terrible.
Missile drones with a DC come in at 40ppd vs a T7 3+ save target. That can be improved significantly. And if someone lascannons their broadside the drone can always take the hit.
There's an opportunity cost though. Where does the DC go? You can stick it on a broadside but they have a lot of other good options. And the drone itself could be a marker drone instead.
I've built mine now at least. For a long time I just left the bits on the sprue, but now I think there's a case for giving them a try.Unhelpfully, I think they'll turn out to be fine - neither amazing or terrible.
So, I was tempted to run the 2 shielded missile drones that come alongside the Riptide, but, at 50 points, I felt like there were just other better options for the points.
The downside of the standard missile drones is that they will tend to be a 1 or 2 drone unit that can be easily targeted, giving up mission points super easily.
Missile drones with a DC come in at 40ppd vs a T7 3+ save target. That can be improved significantly. And if someone lascannons their broadside the drone can always take the hit.
There's an opportunity cost though. Where does the DC go? You can stick it on a broadside but they have a lot of other good options. And the drone itself could be a marker drone instead.
I've built mine now at least. For a long time I just left the bits on the sprue, but now I think there's a case for giving them a try.Unhelpfully, I think they'll turn out to be fine - neither amazing or terrible.
So, I was tempted to run the 2 shielded missile drones that come alongside the Riptide, but, at 50 points, I felt like there were just other better options for the points.
The downside of the standard missile drones is that they will tend to be a 1 or 2 drone unit that can be easily targeted, giving up mission points super easily.
The shielded ones are interesting. To be honest they are very similar. I don't think they are meaningfully tougher than normal missile drones - people will just shoot at them with small arms - though I guess they will resist stuff like heavy bolters marginally better. But they lost their T6.
On the other hand the opportunity cost is arguably lower. The riptide can't take other drones anyway. An IA riptide can probably take a DC without too much bother, as it doesn't realy need an ATS - which would be very expensive anyway.
Something I've considered is a firebase with a unit of 3 broadsides, a riptide or two (or maybe a stormsurge ,but I'm not a fan), and a bunch of drones. Stick shadowsun in there to call Kauyon twice. One way or the other, there's not likely to be much of a turn 3. Your drop count might even be low enough to sometimes get first turn, which would hurt.
I'm really new to playing 40k in general (I've really only previously painted and followed the lore), and extra new to Tau, but I love their look and they seem really freakin' fun. So I jumped in.
But one thing I'm not sure how to approach is keeping track of which drones are in what unit. By that I mean, if I deploy a unit, the drones become a separate unit...and if I move them near other drones to make a great drone swarm of death and destruction, what's the best way to keep track of different drone units? I feel like a bunch of 2 drone units is going to be a pain to keep track of - for me and my opponent. Am I overthinking this?
It is but it's unfortunately the way GW decided to make it work in 8th edition.
I wouldn't worry about it as your opponent will probably blast them off the board sharpish anyway as they are targetable as GW made them a unit of their own. Cheers Guys.
Personally I think having drones in a single mass swarm unit is probably more effective than adding them to squads and vehicals as units of 1 and 2's as your giving your opponents easy firstblood or destroy a unit targets.
But to answer your problem I would suggest painting a unit colour stripe or such either on the drone to make units identifiable or on the base, if you feel its necessary.
Yeah it's going to be an issue, and not just for drones. The official way Fire Warrior units are distinguished is by those tiny little stripes and dots on them, which are too small to really see if you've got a load of guys. Some other solution, like different coloured shoulder pads or something, is almost certainly needed.
Painting bases is one option. For drones you could try painting rings round the stalks, or colouring the actual bases. But I tend to leave my drones' bases detached for transport, to reduce breakages, and sorting them out at the start of the game would be a pain. Instead I've used different colours on the aerials, which works fine until they break off!
Mandragola wrote: Yeah it's going to be an issue, and not just for drones. The official way Fire Warrior units are distinguished is by those tiny little stripes and dots on them, which are too small to really see if you've got a load of guys. Some other solution, like different coloured shoulder pads or something, is almost certainly needed.
Samurai style back banners would work well as unit identifiers.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah it's going to be an issue, and not just for drones. The official way Fire Warrior units are distinguished is by those tiny little stripes and dots on them, which are too small to really see if you've got a load of guys. Some other solution, like different coloured shoulder pads or something, is almost certainly needed.
Samurai style back banners would work well as unit identifiers.
True, and they'd look amazing, but I'm not making 72 of them!
I do think my Fireblade is going to be converted so that he's waving a big banner instead of a knife, but that's kind of a seperate issue.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah it's going to be an issue, and not just for drones. The official way Fire Warrior units are distinguished is by those tiny little stripes and dots on them, which are too small to really see if you've got a load of guys. Some other solution, like different coloured shoulder pads or something, is almost certainly needed.
Painting bases is one option. For drones you could try painting rings round the stalks, or colouring the actual bases. But I tend to leave my drones' bases detached for transport, to reduce breakages, and sorting them out at the start of the game would be a pain. Instead I've used different colours on the aerials, which works fine until they break off!
With drones, the stripes and dots are meant to be bigger than the ones that are on the helmets for the Fire Warriors.
Supposedly the thing would be to use the same scheme for the unit and its drones. There'd be no problem distinquishing the two units from each other, and they'd stand out from other things.
The trouble with it though is that it breaks up the colour scheme of the army. I'd prefer not to have to do that, if at all possible.
Mmmm, what about using the antennae? Have a unit with no antennae, a unit with two, a unit with one on the left, unit with one on the right, unit with antennae modified in some way (or perhaps using spare support system bits from crisis kits) etc.
Can have quite a few variations in there whilst keeping the paint scheme consistent, albeit at loss of parts consistency.
Mandragola wrote: Supposedly the thing would be to use the same scheme for the unit and its drones. There'd be no problem distinquishing the two units from each other, and they'd stand out from other things.
The trouble with it though is that it breaks up the colour scheme of the army. I'd prefer not to have to do that, if at all possible.
Speaking for myself, ones that will be going into specific vehicles/units for army purposes are going to match.
Ex: A Shas'ui from a squad equipped with Marker Drones will have the Antennae marked as the Shas'ui is and with the same unit markers.
Mandragola wrote: Supposedly the thing would be to use the same scheme for the unit and its drones. There'd be no problem distinquishing the two units from each other, and they'd stand out from other things.
The trouble with it though is that it breaks up the colour scheme of the army. I'd prefer not to have to do that, if at all possible.
Speaking for myself, ones that will be going into specific vehicles/units for army purposes are going to match.
Ex: A Shas'ui from a squad equipped with Marker Drones will have the Antennae marked as the Shas'ui is and with the same unit markers.
Not really here nor there for Tactics though.
Yes, you're right - apologies for derailing.
I suppose the follow up question, which is tactics related, is whether it's smarter to bring separate big units instead of adding them to all of your other units (excepting of course the special ones).
Off the top of my head I imagine it reduces kill points, and you get the benefit of throwing them down with manta strike, but that gives up the savior protocols unless you're going first I guess.
Mandragola wrote: Supposedly the thing would be to use the same scheme for the unit and its drones. There'd be no problem distinquishing the two units from each other, and they'd stand out from other things.
The trouble with it though is that it breaks up the colour scheme of the army. I'd prefer not to have to do that, if at all possible.
Speaking for myself, ones that will be going into specific vehicles/units for army purposes are going to match.
Ex: A Shas'ui from a squad equipped with Marker Drones will have the Antennae marked as the Shas'ui is and with the same unit markers.
Not really here nor there for Tactics though.
Yes, you're right - apologies for derailing.
I suppose the follow up question, which is tactics related, is whether it's smarter to bring separate big units instead of adding them to all of your other units (excepting of course the special ones).
Off the top of my head I imagine it reduces kill points, and you get the benefit of throwing them down with manta strike, but that gives up the savior protocols unless you're going first I guess.
I think with shield drones it makes the most sense to put them with the unit (broadsides for example).
Marker drones though - probably better using manta strike - just to prevent alpha.
I don't think we are gonna have a lot of gun drones going on - but manta strike with crisis seems to be their only use.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah it's going to be an issue, and not just for drones. The official way Fire Warrior units are distinguished is by those tiny little stripes and dots on them, which are too small to really see if you've got a load of guys. Some other solution, like different coloured shoulder pads or something, is almost certainly needed.
Samurai style back banners would work well as unit identifiers.
True, and they'd look amazing, but I'm not making 72 of them!
I do think my Fireblade is going to be converted so that he's waving a big banner instead of a knife, but that's kind of a seperate issue.
Good gracious no. I was picturing one per unit with markings to match the shoulder detail. The banners are just help you locate the rough position of each unit at a glance. Doing one for every guy is mental (but it would look awesome, I agree).
Personally I would swap the ethrel and kroot into the sacea brigade, with a fireblade a 3 firewarriors into the tau batallion. 3 shots at 15 overwatching on 5&6's
Also your pathfinders seam to have an extra markerlight as you can't take a markerlight on an ion rifle.
Ice_can wrote: Personally I would swap the ethrel and kroot into the sacea brigade, with a fireblade a 3 firewarriors into the tau batallion. 3 shots at 15 overwatching on 5&6's
Also your pathfinders seam to have an extra markerlight as you can't take a markerlight on an ion rifle.
I'm fairly sure the pathfinders are correct, 6 guys, five markerlights and one Ion Rifle should equal 52. The whole point of having the fireblades and the strike teams with markerlights in sa'cea though is for the reroll on the markerlight. I'd say it's worth more than the bonus to shooting. The ethereal doesn't matter either way as his ability is tau empire rather than .
You ask for advice so I will give you my opinion - for broadsides - take plasma not SMS. Don't take marker drones unless you want to put drone controller on something in your army (id just turn them into sheild drones straight away for the broadsides). Remove ion rifles from pathfinders and just take more pathfinders with the saved point. Prefer SMS on the hammerheads also (ESP on long strike). I dont why you aqre taking a second detachment without another commander in it ether - drop a fireblade and make room for a commander. Etherals aren't good IMO ether - though you do have a lot of 10 man units - could be helpful then.
SMS is more expensive and LOS is not a big issue at that range. If it was 48" ignore LOS I would agree with you but at 30" it's rarely going to come into effect. The ignore cover is mostly wasted also because you are already going to ignore cover shooting at a 5 markerlight target (which your broadsides really should be shooting at anyways). The plasma range is an issue - but nether option being that great - I'll just take the cheaper option.
SMS is much better on a hammerhead because they are more likely to shoot at things without 5 markers and also are probably trying to hide out of LOS themselves.
Xenomancers wrote: You ask for advice so I will give you my opinion - for broadsides - take plasma not SMS. Don't take marker drones unless you want to put drone controller on something in your army (id just turn them into sheild drones straight away for the broadsides). Remove ion rifles from pathfinders and just take more pathfinders with the saved point. Prefer SMS on the hammerheads also (ESP on long strike). I dont why you aqre taking a second detachment without another commander in it ether - drop a fireblade and make room for a commander. Etherals aren't good IMO ether - though you do have a lot of 10 man units - could be helpful then. ... SMS is more expensive and LOS is not a big issue at that range. If it was 48" ignore LOS I would agree with you but at 30" it's rarely going to come into effect. The ignore cover is mostly wasted also because you are already going to ignore cover shooting at a 5 markerlight target (which your broadsides really should be shooting at anyways). The plasma range is an issue - but nether option being that great - I'll just take the cheaper option. SMS is much better on a hammerhead because they are more likely to shoot at things without 5 markers and also are probably trying to hide out of LOS themselves.
I feel more in line with Bryan, at 30" you get 8 shots. at 24" you get 2 shots and at 12" you get 4 shots. It feels to me that a backfield camper probably wants the greater number of shots at mid range. (plus I think it looks much better aesthetically) Having said that, you're probably right about SMS on the hammerheads, I was just trying to save points. Having looked at the army, it probably doesn't need the extra ML drones, and they were going to be ablative broadside wounds, so yes shield drones probably are better. Lets say I did take out a fireblade and an ethereal, and the shaper meaning I would have to make the firewarrior blob smaller and more vulnerable to LD (although I think at ten men it may not be too much of an issue for the FWs, the kroot need it) That gives me an elite slot that needs filling for the brigade, and only 120 points, so I could squeeze in a three FB commander. I think it's much more valuable to buff the 600 or so points of infantry than to have another FB deep strike one shot.
I don't suicide with commanders ever - they hide behind units. It's why I really like ghostkeels - keeps your fusion or CIB commander alive. You can't fit one though without major change. I run a 4 missle commander. It's not cheap but it stays alive shooting all game and sets off reroll master of war without wasting a turn of shooting. Anyways I agree with you - putting in a fusion commander isn't going to help you much with this heavy infantry build
No need to tear your list up. It's fine as it is - just nitpicks. I think you really want to run Secca but longstrike is tau. That is where the issue is. You are really better off with everything being tau competitively. Not just because 5/6 overwatch - only tau sept units can benefit from the +1 to wound stratagem. Seems to me that is the best stratagem in the book.
For a commander, one option would be to run a 4 CIB guy and give him the Tau JSJ relic. The missile guy to call Kauyon on your broadsides is also a strong option.
Honestly I'm still unsure if a brigade is the way to go for Tau, but it's certainly a decent option. A brigade plus a battalion likely isn't ideal though. I think you've got too many kroot and too many fireblades. You just need the kroot to spread out and push forward, which should be doable with two units. And/or take some stealths or a ghostkeel with the points you'd save, and deploy them anywhere you like.
The trouble with kroot is that they'll simply evapourate in front of some enemies. There will be people you totally overwhelm, but when you lose you'll lose hard. Their LD is just so bad.
I'd put a DC on one of your broadsides, and/or velocity trackers. A VT seems like a pretty strong upgdrade for them for 2 points, given how many of their likely targets fly. But a shield generator can do surprisingly little for a model that has a 2+ save anyway.
As for plasma vs sms on the broadsides, there's not a lot in it. I hear the argument for saving points but I think that's often going to be at the expense of shooting. The reverse of that is that plasma gives way scarier overwatch, and your army hardly lacks S5 shooting.
Can't stretch my love for Vespids enough, those little buggers are just that amazing.
2 points more than a gun drone, same toughness and save, but can get the ever valuable cover bonus (super easy to do as you can deepstrike them right into cover) thanks to being infantry with fly, +6" movement, and much, MUCH better firepower (18" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 that hit on 4+ and get free choice of target rather than being 4 shots S5 AP0 hitting on 5+ and having to target the closest enemy). Also Ld8 is massive as Ld5 is a huge issue even for the smallest drone units. Losing even a single drone means a 33% chance to lose another one, while Vespids simply don't give a gak.
They are basically for cheap deepstriking firepower and objective stealing what Stealthsuits are for defensive board control, obective grabbing and wound soaking potential. They basically fit into any list.
Used a unit of 4 Vespids (56 pts) and 4 deep striking tactical gun drones (48 pts) today and the Vespids completely out performed the drones at the job (high value target elimination and objective clearing). A single markerlight on target is already a nice helper for the already good efficiency of Vespids, but if you manage to get 5 markers on target (all praise the ML strategemens) they just murder everything on two legs.
I use Vespids all the time for clearing units in the backfield of my enemy or just harass him. 2 S5 -2Ap shots a piece can put hurt in nearly anything.
They are absolutely phenomenal, I totally agree with you.
I’m going to have to try vespids. My only issue is the models, which I really don’t like. I’ve got some of the old metal stealth suits and I’m thinking of trying to convert them to count as vespids. Not sure how I’d do the guns, which would be the main tricky thing.
Been playing with list ideas and I want to make a stealth theme work. Here is what I came up with:
Spoiler:
Bork'an Battalion
Enforcer w/ 4 ion
Fireblade w/ puretide chip
3x5 fire warriors
Burstide sms, ats, and tl Ghostkeels ion, burst, ats, and tl Ghostkeels ion, burst, ats, and tl
Bork'an Battalion
Enforcer w/ 4 ion
Fireblade
3x5 fire warriors
2x5 pathfinders w/ pad
Vior'la Vanguard
Coldstar w/ 4 fusion
2x3 stealth suits
6 stealth suits 2 fuision 6 vt
2x4 vespid
What does everyone think? There is good deployment options, decent survivability, and good mobility. I feel a bit light on actual damage but I haven't run the new ion rakers yet so maybe I'm ok. I have considered dropping the riptide for a bunch of pathfinders with ion rifles. I'd also consider sniper drones as they would fit the theme but even with mortal wounds I don't feel that they do that much.
Mandragola wrote: I’m going to have to try vespids. My only issue is the models, which I really don’t like. I’ve got some of the old metal stealth suits and I’m thinking of trying to convert them to count as vespids. Not sure how I’d do the guns, which would be the main tricky thing.
Mandragola wrote: For a commander, one option would be to run a 4 CIB guy and give him the Tau JSJ relic. The missile guy to call Kauyon on your broadsides is also a strong option.
Honestly I'm still unsure if a brigade is the way to go for Tau, but it's certainly a decent option. A brigade plus a battalion likely isn't ideal though. I think you've got too many kroot and too many fireblades. You just need the kroot to spread out and push forward, which should be doable with two units. And/or take some stealths or a ghostkeel with the points you'd save, and deploy them anywhere you like.
The trouble with kroot is that they'll simply evapourate in front of some enemies. There will be people you totally overwhelm, but when you lose you'll lose hard. Their LD is just so bad.
I'd put a DC on one of your broadsides, and/or velocity trackers. A VT seems like a pretty strong upgdrade for them for 2 points, given how many of their likely targets fly. But a shield generator can do surprisingly little for a model that has a 2+ save anyway.
As for plasma vs sms on the broadsides, there's not a lot in it. I hear the argument for saving points but I think that's often going to be at the expense of shooting. The reverse of that is that plasma gives way scarier overwatch, and your army hardly lacks S5 shooting.
Was thinking the same about the velocity tracker. Saves you 6 points too. I'm concerned about not having cover or having the option to move up to get rapid fire with my plasma guns. Still gives you a 4+ vs bright lances and melta type weapons. It seems I am always facing a lot of -4 AP these days. All good point though. Probably will be more of a taste thing or in the end what you can afford. I was actually looking for a way to drop points in an earlier list because I didn't think I had enough pathfinders. Those point savings are already half way to another unit of them.
Plasma rifles are a low tier weapon this edition, SMS is one of our best. It's not even close. The plasma rifles are still inferior to SMS when shooting at tanks in rapid fire. It's really sad. Strength 6 has just killed the weapon.
It's okay for shooting things like Terminators in rapid fire range, but then why are you shooting at terminators in rapid fire range with your Broadsides? Don't do that.
It's not better - it's cheaper. It's an 8 point savings. 7 of that goes into a fire warrior which has 3 shots str 5 in optimal range. That just for comparison. You are probably going to use those saved points on seeker missiles or marker light upgrades on fire warriors. 8 more str 5 shots isn't making a huge difference in this army anyways. I prefer to spend points somewhere else is all I am saying - I agree with you that its usually the better option for doing damage early in the game - it would be a no brainer if they were priced equally.
Xenomancers wrote: It's not better - it's cheaper. It's an 8 point savings. 7 of that goes into a fire warrior which has 3 shots str 5 in optimal range. That just for comparison. You are probably going to use those saved points on seeker missiles or marker light upgrades on fire warriors. 8 more str 5 shots isn't making a huge difference in this army anyways. I prefer to spend points somewhere else is all I am saying - I agree with you that its usually the better option for doing damage early in the game - it would be a no brainer if they were priced equally.
It's moderately more point efficient (like within 2 points per wound, assuming no ATS), but only if you are in rapid fire range. At anything longer than 12", it's just flat out worse and it's actually more expensive in points-per-wound terms. You can find better ways to save 8 points in your list than swapping your SMS for plasma rifles.
Mandragola wrote: For a commander, one option would be to run a 4 CIB guy and give him the Tau JSJ relic. The missile guy to call Kauyon on your broadsides is also a strong option.
Honestly I'm still unsure if a brigade is the way to go for Tau, but it's certainly a decent option. A brigade plus a battalion likely isn't ideal though. I think you've got too many kroot and too many fireblades. You just need the kroot to spread out and push forward, which should be doable with two units. And/or take some stealths or a ghostkeel with the points you'd save, and deploy them anywhere you like.
The trouble with kroot is that they'll simply evapourate in front of some enemies. There will be people you totally overwhelm, but when you lose you'll lose hard. Their LD is just so bad.
I'd put a DC on one of your broadsides, and/or velocity trackers. A VT seems like a pretty strong upgdrade for them for 2 points, given how many of their likely targets fly. But a shield generator can do surprisingly little for a model that has a 2+ save anyway.
I'll think about the missile guy, but the shaper should improve LD enough for 10 man units. They're also the cheapest way of filling out the tau battalion for extra cp.
Originally I was going to have just velocity trackers, but given the broadsides are one of the big damage dealers of the list next to the hammerheads, I didn't want them dying to big guns with ap -4. Also DC seems wasted if I'm swapping the markerlight drones for shield drones.
As for the fireblades, they're cheap, they're a BS2 markerlight with rerolls in sa'cea (sorry I doubted you meleti) and there are 5 strike teams, so less than three makes it difficult to over them all.
I'll think about taking out the kroot though. I'll get back at the end of the day with a revised list.
Mandragola wrote: I’m going to have to try vespids. My only issue is the models, which I really don’t like. I’ve got some of the old metal stealth suits and I’m thinking of trying to convert them to count as vespids. Not sure how I’d do the guns, which would be the main tricky thing.
I am going to purchase the female GREATER GOOD models from wargame exclusive to use as vespids.
davou wrote: Plasma vs SMS on broadsides is an easy win for the SMS for me. Gives you a bit of anti-tank and a bit of anti-infantry on the same platform.
Plasmas range is too low compared to the rail rifles, and with the SMS at least you don't need to draw lines to the target.
The only upside of the plasma rifles vs. the SMS is that you can get a shield generator and the plasma rifles for the same price as the SMS.
Plasma is massively overpriced on a broadside, most of the time you get two shots plasma a turn at best, while the SMS would be giving you 8 S5 shots (that ignore cover and more importantly LoS) instead. If the HRR Broadie with Plasma I got off ebay wasn't so excellently painted (#1 fav model I own) I would tear off the plasma rifles in an instant. I don't think they ever even made their points back in any game I played it. The plasma would serve a purpose if my Broadsides could reliably move and shoot without penalty into rapid fire range (together with my Fire Warrior blob), but for me Shield Generators and ATS (on Missilesides) are just too valuable to give up the support system slot. The best thing about a HRR Broadside (even with Sa'cea) is not even the firepower, but how incredibly hard they are to remove and how long they get to stick around when they got a shield generator and two shield drones. Most players simply don't bother wasting their AT firepower on it because their shots will simply be eaten by a 4+ inv followed by the drones 5+ FnP.
In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
If you're only looking at the unit itself, I'd probably take the Stormsurge. It big and tough enough to actually suvive a turn or two. If we're talking about a real army where you'll have drones around to chump wounds to, the Y'Vahra wins in a landslide. That flamer is stupidly powerful, and now that you can have 14" range on it with the Borkan Sept trait, using the Nova charge to redeploy is actually useful.
buddha wrote: In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
You ask for advice so I will give you my opinion - for broadsides - take plasma not SMS. Don't take marker drones unless you want to put drone controller on something in your army (id just turn them into sheild drones straight away for the broadsides). Remove ion rifles from pathfinders and just take more pathfinders with the saved point. Prefer SMS on the hammerheads also (ESP on long strike). I dont why you aqre taking a second detachment without another commander in it ether - drop a fireblade and make room for a commander. Etherals aren't good IMO ether - though you do have a lot of 10 man units - could be helpful then.
I disagree on plasma over SMS. There are three issues with plasma here:
Range - you need to be within 12" for it to give you its most effective shooting, which is really not where you want your broadsides. SMS has a greater range.
Targets - plasma wants to hit tougher things, which is a shorter list of available targets. On its own, not an issue, but consider...
Seems I'm alone in thinking plasma is a better choice for the broadsides. So I will stop suggesting it as a better idea. Still yet to play my first game with the codex - I could be totally off on it.
buddha wrote: In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
Take a look at this list - 1 Surge is too easy to kill IMO - must bring 3.
Interestingly I think both of these units do best in Bork'an. The range really helps both units shine.
I'm pretty sure the surge can take 3 support systems and ewo is good choice I think.
I think both y'varha and surge are very list dependent. And need support to work best. If taking drones y'varhas do better without drones a surge is probably better.
On another note I've been considering ewo on bork'an y'varhas for a 24" bubble of anti deepstrike with the flamer. Ignores the -1 and can kill 3-5 marines or genestealers when the drop in close. It's not much but combine with overwatch and it might prevent a charge from succeeding.
The idea is to deploy the gun drones and commanders into reserve first, then start building a castle using the broadsides, with riptides on flank, marker drones around them to abblate wounds too later on, and then infiltrate the stealth and ghost to either deny drops or counter a juicy target.
Kinda low on CP, but I didn't wanna put troops in there if I could avoid it and break all suit style.
buddha wrote: In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
I've mentioned the Borkan Y'Vahras with EWO a couple times, and nobody seemed as interested in that concept as I am. Glad someone else is on the bandwagon. Assuming it's not the top of turn 1, you're probably killing more like 7 things (3d6*2/3 chance to wound) that drop in. Remember that Nova charge lasts until your next turn! Having a flame weapon with >9" range is also a stellar defensive option for whatever survives the drop and wants to charge, as if charging Y'Vahras wasn't already dicey enough. Maybe I'm overstating things a little, given how little time we've had since the codex dropped, but I see Y'Vahra-based board control as a potential cornerstone for competitive Tau lists. I'm contemplating a list based around a Borkan outrider detachment and 2 Tau Battalions. More on that later when I don't have to type it into my phone.
Regarding the suit army, I think you're setting yourself up pretty well thematically. That said, in terms of optimization, there are some holes.
Even with the prodigious discount Broadsides got, they're still just not all that great. Compare them with Hammerheads which have similar firepower but are more than twice as durable for like 30 more points. I mean, if you're set on suits, they aren't awful options, but they certainly are not amazing. HRR and SMS would probably be my load out of choice.
There's not much reason to take anything other than fusions or CIBs on commanders. Anything else just decreases your opponent's body count.
Riptides I like, but you might consider velocity trackers on them. There's a ton of stuff around with FLY, so that could be a more useful hit modification option. Just a thought.
Tactically, you're going to have to use your stealth suits to screen out drops since you have such a low model count. As mentioned, Broadsides are paper thin, so getting them T1 charged is going to ruin your day. Chump the charge with your cheap guys, fly away, and open fire!
MilkmanAl wrote: I've mentioned the Borkan Y'Vahras with EWO a couple times, and nobody seemed as interested in that concept as I am. Glad someone else is on the bandwagon. Assuming it's not the top of turn 1, you're probably killing more like 7 things (3d6*2/3 chance to wound) that drop in. Remember that Nova charge lasts until your next turn! Having a flame weapon with >9" range is also a stellar defensive option for whatever survives the drop and wants to charge, as if charging Y'Vahras wasn't already dicey enough. Maybe I'm overstating things a little, given how little time we've had since the codex dropped, but I see Y'Vahra-based board control as a potential cornerstone for competitive Tau lists. I'm contemplating a list based around a Borkan outrider detachment and 2 Tau Battalions. More on that later when I don't have to type it into my phone.
I'd be interested in seeing that list. I keep playing with a double y'varha list but it seems once I get them + commanders + screen and drones there is no room for other things. I've gotten 2 games in and double battalion plus vanguard has worked really well for me. I'm sure having the outrider would work just as well.
I think between stealthsuits ghostkeels and cheap fire warriors we have great potential to control the board.
davou wrote: I seem to have gotten burried a few pages back; Here's my crack at an all suits list (with drones for abblation and ML). I'd love some feedback
Spoiler:
All suits (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [100 PL, 1982pts]
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire)
HQ
Commander in XV85 Crisis battlesuit
Selections: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Shield generator, Advanced targeting system
Categories: Faction: <Sept>, Battlesuit, Character, Fly, Jet Pack, HQ, Faction: T'au Empire, Commander, Legendary Unit
Fast Attack
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV1 Gun Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
The idea is to deploy the gun drones and commanders into reserve first, then start building a castle using the broadsides, with riptides on flank, marker drones around them to abblate wounds too later on, and then infiltrate the stealth and ghost to either deny drops or counter a juicy target.
Kinda low on CP, but I didn't wanna put troops in there if I could avoid it and break all suit style.
To be honest, I find that army list layout so bafflingly hard to read, I skipped over it last time. Sorry! I’m still genuinely unsure what’s in the list, though I think I’ve managed to find most of the units now. Basically you’ve got a spearhead of 3 broadsides with a CIB commander, and a vanguard of
It looks broadly fine though I think. The main area I’d question is the commanders – who I’d give more guns instead of the other junk they are carrying. Like just an XV85 with quad CIB and a coldstar with quad fusion. Burst cannon and missile pod is just a waste of BS2+ now, I think.
Going all-suits leaves you very low on CPs of course – but you know that. It’s hard to argue that going all-suits is a good idea when you can so easily get battalions now.
I’m curious to see no actual crisis suits – particularly when you’ve got at least one homing beacon in there. What is going to use the beacon? You could have a set with flamers, and one of them might have a DC to help your drones. Or you could use CIB suits, for the ridiculous firepower they can drop. They could even deep strike in with some marker drones, which would be handy because they’d still be alive – I’d make a determined effort to kill off drones if playing against Tau.
davou wrote: I seem to have gotten burried a few pages back; Here's my crack at an all suits list (with drones for abblation and ML). I'd love some feedback
Spoiler:
All suits (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [100 PL, 1982pts]
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire)
HQ
Commander in XV85 Crisis battlesuit
Selections: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Shield generator, Advanced targeting system
Categories: Faction: <Sept>, Battlesuit, Character, Fly, Jet Pack, HQ, Faction: T'au Empire, Commander, Legendary Unit
Fast Attack
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV1 Gun Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
The idea is to deploy the gun drones and commanders into reserve first, then start building a castle using the broadsides, with riptides on flank, marker drones around them to abblate wounds too later on, and then infiltrate the stealth and ghost to either deny drops or counter a juicy target.
Kinda low on CP, but I didn't wanna put troops in there if I could avoid it and break all suit style.
Oof, please clear up that wall of text a bit, it's unreadable like this. No need to list every single tag of every unit and fully spell out all weapon and gear selections.
Troops Strike Team: 5x Fire Warrior
Strike Team: 5x Fire Warrior
Breacher Team: 7x Fire Warrior
Elite XV104 Riptide Battlesuit (HBC, ATS, TL)
Warlord Traits and Relics can be listed in parentheses with their model. Also, use abbreviations for wargear and weapons if you know them, people who read and comment on these kind of tactica threads will know their meaning.
I really hope PEN (Puretide Engram Neurochip) and TUD (Through Unity, Devastation) catch on as acronyms so I can stop writing those out when I'm talking about them.
So after two games with double Riptide I'm really liking it. They are just so mobile and have great synergy with everything around them in the form of FTGG threat they offer. Buffed with stratagems they can keep on fighting the whole game and aren't even afraid of melee. One took two rounds of beating from Daemon Prince today and didn't even suffer a scratch. 3++ T7 is solid. Haven't tested Ion accelerator yet.
However I feel I don't have enough midfield units to hide my Commanders behind I'm going to revert to only using one. Midfield will have two Ghostkeels to sate my need for big anime mecha suits. They should offer a nice and comfy hiding place for Commanders and pack some punch themselves. I'm probably going to also try to have more Stealth suits to act as skirmishing units. Usually I run at least two units of 3, now I'm thinking adding a unit of 6 too. This should further improve my standing on the midfield and act as support for Commanders doing the heavy lifting.
John Prins wrote: Has it been mentioned yet that Strike and Breacher Teams can now take Pulse Pistols (every model)?
Probably not worth the points cost (1pt), but for very aggressive Tau armies it might make a nice CC surprise.
They can't be used in CC, only in the shooting phase with models within 1", so I don't think they make any difference. It takes a miracle for one of my Strike Teams to survive a round of melee with anything more fearsome than a smurf Scout with a boltgun.
Yeah I saw the same, but eh, if they are stuck in combat something has gone wrong that they are locked and not able to retreat in your turn so you can light them up with your army.
Played my first game with the new codex vs multiple flying hive tyrants, swarm-lord and assorted other units (biovores, Ravagers, Mawloc, bodyguard, rippers, lictor etc). I think it was his somewhat toned down tourney list (don't think he usually takes the swarmlord). The new dex really helped in terms of the Tau tenant for over-watch and the focused fire stratagem for ensuring something big dies.
Like the index, one of the all star units for me continues to be stealth suits. They pretty much won the game as it was the relic mission. Picked it up, got back to my lines and nearly everything circled the wagons. In general they screen, go for objectives and are real annoying to kill.
I also like the Devilfish as a later game screen. Nothing new, just the massive hull helps and you can ram it into units to tie things down.
One trick my opponent was assaulting out of buildings so I could not over-watch. Something to be aware of!
Trying to decide between between 2 3-man stealth teams with a fusion or a ghostkheel with CIR and fusions. Don't have the points for both but both are around the same price.
buddha wrote: Trying to decide between between 2 3-man stealth teams with a fusion or a ghostkheel with CIR and fusions. Don't have the points for both but both are around the same price.
They synergize well together, so my question is - do you have any stealth suits at all?
buddha wrote: In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
Take a look at this list - 1 Surge is too easy to kill IMO - must bring 3.
Interestingly I think both of these units do best in Bork'an. The range really helps both units shine.
Entry says you can have three support systems.
True - looking at codex now. Don't have that with me at work. Battle-scribe is wrong on that guys - just a headsup.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bryan01 wrote: Yeah I saw the same, but eh, if they are stuck in combat something has gone wrong that they are locked and not able to retreat in your turn so you can light them up with your army.
Played my first game with the new codex vs multiple flying hive tyrants, swarm-lord and assorted other units (biovores, Ravagers, Mawloc, bodyguard, rippers, lictor etc). I think it was his somewhat toned down tourney list (don't think he usually takes the swarmlord). The new dex really helped in terms of the Tau tenant for over-watch and the focused fire stratagem for ensuring something big dies.
Like the index, one of the all star units for me continues to be stealth suits. They pretty much won the game as it was the relic mission. Picked it up, got back to my lines and nearly everything circled the wagons. In general they screen, go for objectives and are real annoying to kill.
I also like the Devilfish as a later game screen. Nothing new, just the massive hull helps and you can ram it into units to tie things down.
One trick my opponent was assaulting out of buildings so I could not over-watch. Something to be aware of!
I've already experienced with for myself with shining spears and autarchs on bikes in the index- deliberately charging from out of line of site. It made me want to quit the game. I really hope they fix this busted rule.
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a list drawn up with battlescribe that was actually legal. I guess it must happen sometimes. I’ve never understood the appeal of a program that will generate a subtly wrong army list for you, when you could just use a spreadsheet.
Anyway back to tactics, the question I keep running up against is between broadsides and ionheads. I happen to have three of each (or at least I’ve still got the bits for ion cannons to go on my railheads).
Which should I go for - or is there even a chance it would make sense to get both? That would take up a very significant part of a 2k list.
On the face of it the ionheads seems better. Ion cannons are awesome and it’s got twice as many wounds. Longstrike can buff them even further. Their much better BS makes them less vulnerable to penalties to hit, and they fly.
But the broadside has a better save, can take an invulnerable and can be buffed a hell of a lot by stratagems. I could see myself parking shadowsun with a squad of 3 and using kauyon twice, along with cnc node. That would hurt. It would also be very expensive and potentially easy to shut down - at least for anyone who could make it through the overwatch.
So far everyone seems to be talking about broadsides, rather than ionheads. I guess that’s fairly conclusive, but I’m not totally sure myself. I guess the obvious thing would be to test them.
The idea I have in mind is that the Coldstars and Gun Drone units start in reserve and drop in wherever you need them. Ideally, you'd use the Borkan Coldstar and drones all together to take a huge chunk out of a flank, but if you have multiple holes that need plugging, that's obviously an option, too. The rest of the units deploy with the Y'Vahras towards the front of your DZ creating overlapping exclusion zones (i.e. less than 24" away from each other - probably more like 18"). Shield drones need to be tight to the Y'Vahras to prevent them from getting charged directly and also obviously be in Saviour Protocols range.
Split the FW and Fireblades to go with the Y'Vahras for some brutal overwatch, should something survive the drop. Not a whole lot is going to want to take 2 Y'Vahra flamers plus 45 S5 overwatch shots that hit on 5s to the face before it even gets to do anything in combat. You won't have any screening units, but with that amount of firepower, you can afford to dare combat units to drop on you. Alternatively, you could break off a unit of FW to take up space further out.
10 Pathfinders should be enough to light up a target for some Focus Fire action, should you choose to use it on something. Speaking of which, you don't really have all that many Tau Sept units, but if something big and bad gets into your backfield, +1 to wound with a bunch of pulse rifles is never bad.
I'm considering switching up the balance of shield and gun drones and moving the gun drones off the Tau Commanders and into the Borkan detachment for more Y'Vahra protection and firepower courtesy of the DC.
So here's what I'd been using to think about Hammerheads vs Broadsides. I'm allergic to math (and quite new to mathhammer) which is to blame for all errors. And I did have an error in my sheet earlier that had me slightly overvaluing the SMS (I accidentally had it at -1 AP base), so I will say that rapid firing plasma is definitely better than SMS against tanks. Not that I think rapid firing should ever happen with a Broadside.
Oh, and this is what they look like with reroll 1s (from 1 ML) and +1 to hit (from Longstrike or 5 ML)
Ionheads are quite competitive with Broadsides. They're just 25 points more a model, which is quite noticeable in something like a Brigade detachment, so my interest is more in that HRR/SMS Broadside. They're also arguably easier to give +1 to hit to, since you can run Longstrike and he might even survive your opponent's first turn.
Seeker Missiles are quite overvalued here because they can only fire once.
Seeker missles on a hammerhead longstike and friends allows a nastt ability to really amp up your early game damage to blunt your opponents return volly, the issue is you have to survive your opppnents turn as few tau lists will be getting the +1 for turn 1 roll.
Can someone double check something for me please?
There is a guy at Adepticon is 42nd currently, but, he seems to be running 11 Commanders still… Is Adepticon not using the new T’au codex?
There is also a guy in 21st running 3 Y’tides in a T’au sept army, so I can only presume that one of them is incorrect?
Regarding ion heads vs broadsides one thing to account for on both sides is that the ion head has the mobility and fly rule which I find very desirable. On the other hand broadsides benefit from drones and other buffs.
I prefer the fly rule over increased defence of broadsides.
Kdash wrote: Can someone double check something for me please?
There is a guy at Adepticon is 42nd currently, but, he seems to be running 11 Commanders still… Is Adepticon not using the new T’au codex?
There is also a guy in 21st running 3 Y’tides in a T’au sept army, so I can only presume that one of them is incorrect?
Mandragola wrote: I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a list drawn up with battlescribe that was actually legal. I guess it must happen sometimes. I’ve never understood the appeal of a program that will generate a subtly wrong army list for you, when you could just use a spreadsheet.
Anyway back to tactics, the question I keep running up against is between broadsides and ionheads. I happen to have three of each (or at least I’ve still got the bits for ion cannons to go on my railheads).
Which should I go for - or is there even a chance it would make sense to get both? That would take up a very significant part of a 2k list.
On the face of it the ionheads seems better. Ion cannons are awesome and it’s got twice as many wounds. Longstrike can buff them even further. Their much better BS makes them less vulnerable to penalties to hit, and they fly.
But the broadside has a better save, can take an invulnerable and can be buffed a hell of a lot by stratagems. I could see myself parking shadowsun with a squad of 3 and using kauyon twice, along with cnc node. That would hurt. It would also be very expensive and potentially easy to shut down - at least for anyone who could make it through the overwatch.
So far everyone seems to be talking about broadsides, rather than ionheads. I guess that’s fairly conclusive, but I’m not totally sure myself. I guess the obvious thing would be to test them.
Seems like it would fit best into a brigade.
Long strike and 2 ion heads plus a 3 man broadside. It's basically all your heavy hitting units at once but it's doable in a brigade.
Oof, please clear up that wall of text a bit, it's unreadable like this. No need to list every single tag of every unit and fully spell out all weapon and gear selections.
Straight comparisons of Broads and Hammers will always be off. You really have to divide the points between AT weapons and AP, since the secondaries are pretty much all designed to be fired at different targets.
Then there is survivability, which varies depending on the army comp.
I'm going to just play both. Longstrike + 1 more ionhead with seeker missiles, 3 railsides with SMS and protection drones. Sure they could cost a lot but I can compensate greatly by utilizing my 35 pt troop choices.
Taking RR & PR means you don't need ATS, and means a Broadside comes in at 117pts. That's getting right down to a very tempting price, especially in a Sa'cea detachmebt for the rerolls on each Broadside...
grouchoben wrote: Taking RR & PR means you don't need ATS, and means a Broadside comes in at 117pts. That's getting right down to a very tempting price, especially in a Sa'cea detachmebt for the rerolls on each Broadside...
Tac on a velocity tracker for 2 points and you are 3+ to hit a lot of targets already too.
davou wrote: Don't feel like the shield generator is worth it to try and soak some shooting on broadsides when the drones run out?
Not sure yet. If cover is available to the Broadside the sheild gen is wasted unless against ap-4 or an ignore cover ap -3 - so in a take all comers type list - more often than not the shield generator will be wasted. It does give you the freedom to leave cover though - so it's not completely wasted. 2 points for +1 to hit against fly is a steal though. Too bad it can't take 2 support systems :(.
That looks interesting. Do you think the ats is needed on y'varhas? I ran it early on but past couple months I have been doing to and stims and decent success. I still haven't run drones since codex I'll have to get back to them. Thanks though definitely be trying the list or similar.
ATS isn't necessary, I suppose, but it's really nice to be able to fry standard vehicles with impunity. You also slap normal TEQ down to their invuln, for whatever that's worth. What would you suggest as an alternative? A target lock? Stims, maybe? I ran them with stims in the index with a fair amount of success.
So I was daydreaming about the other day and came up with the following Coldstar loadout: HOBC, Supernova Launcher, CIB, ATS. I'd reckon this guy would be an absolute TERROR to heavy infantry and light vehicles (with 1 ML counter the Supernova Launcher basically becomes a Flamestorm Cannon on roids and you can overcharge the CIB for (almost) free) while the HOBC could be used to hose down MEQ/GEQ. Maybe switch out the CIB for a Plasma Rifle to better deal with 2+ saves (but just 1 damage and no overcharge mode hurts a lot). Something of a Dakkamander as a counterpart to the standard Fusionmander. Full kit is (I thought) 148 points with CIB. Thoughts?
davou wrote: Don't feel like the shield generator is worth it to try and soak some shooting on broadsides when the drones run out?
Broadside has 2+ armor save so a SG provides less value. Personally I'd be inclined to take SMS+HRR and put a TL on them so you can move around and still shoot at full BS.
Pandabeer wrote: So I was daydreaming about the other day and came up with the following Coldstar loadout: HOBC, Supernova Launcher, CIB, ATS. I'd reckon this guy would be an absolute TERROR to heavy infantry and light vehicles (with 1 ML counter the Supernova Launcher basically becomes a Flamestorm Cannon on roids and you can overcharge the CIB for (almost) free) while the HOBC could be used to hose down MEQ/GEQ. Maybe switch out the CIB for a Plasma Rifle to better deal with 2+ saves (but just 1 damage and no overcharge mode hurts a lot). Something of a Dakkamander as a counterpart to the standard Fusionmander. Full kit is (I thought) 148 points with CIB. Thoughts?
davou wrote: Don't feel like the shield generator is worth it to try and soak some shooting on broadsides when the drones run out?
Broadside has 2+ armor save so a SG provides less value. Personally I'd be inclined to take SMS+HRR and put a TL on them so you can move around and still shoot at full BS.
I think they'd also be a good option for drone controllers if you have any sniper drones.
Pandabeer wrote: So I was daydreaming about the other day and came up with the following Coldstar loadout: HOBC, Supernova Launcher, CIB, ATS. I'd reckon this guy would be an absolute TERROR to heavy infantry and light vehicles (with 1 ML counter the Supernova Launcher basically becomes a Flamestorm Cannon on roids and you can overcharge the CIB for (almost) free) while the HOBC could be used to hose down MEQ/GEQ. Maybe switch out the CIB for a Plasma Rifle to better deal with 2+ saves (but just 1 damage and no overcharge mode hurts a lot). Something of a Dakkamander as a counterpart to the standard Fusionmander. Full kit is (I thought) 148 points with CIB. Thoughts?
davou wrote: Don't feel like the shield generator is worth it to try and soak some shooting on broadsides when the drones run out?
Broadside has 2+ armor save so a SG provides less value. Personally I'd be inclined to take SMS+HRR and put a TL on them so you can move around and still shoot at full BS.
Congrats your comander is illegal, no CIB on coldstars period.
Annoyingly we don't have acess to more Hight Output burstcannons as that would be an epic coldstar loadout for hoard clearence.
Pandabeer wrote: So I was daydreaming about the other day and came up with the following Coldstar loadout: HOBC, Supernova Launcher, CIB, ATS. I'd reckon this guy would be an absolute TERROR to heavy infantry and light vehicles (with 1 ML counter the Supernova Launcher basically becomes a Flamestorm Cannon on roids and you can overcharge the CIB for (almost) free) while the HOBC could be used to hose down MEQ/GEQ. Maybe switch out the CIB for a Plasma Rifle to better deal with 2+ saves (but just 1 damage and no overcharge mode hurts a lot). Something of a Dakkamander as a counterpart to the standard Fusionmander. Full kit is (I thought) 148 points with CIB. Thoughts?
davou wrote: Don't feel like the shield generator is worth it to try and soak some shooting on broadsides when the drones run out?
Broadside has 2+ armor save so a SG provides less value. Personally I'd be inclined to take SMS+HRR and put a TL on them so you can move around and still shoot at full BS.
The desired load out I wanted until I saw the restriction that coldstar cant take CIB was HOBC, 2xCIB, and supernova launcher. For some reason though the coldstar cant take CIB (literally has an asterisk at the beginning of the unit listings that says you can't take it). After that I modified my preferred loadout to HOBC, BC, Supernova, ATS.
So it gives you 12 str 5 ap-1 and d6str 6 ap-3 d2 shots for 138 points. Very deadly unit for very little points.
Pandabeer wrote: So I was daydreaming about the other day and came up with the following Coldstar loadout: HOBC, Supernova Launcher, CIB, ATS. I'd reckon this guy would be an absolute TERROR to heavy infantry and light vehicles (with 1 ML counter the Supernova Launcher basically becomes a Flamestorm Cannon on roids and you can overcharge the CIB for (almost) free) while the HOBC could be used to hose down MEQ/GEQ. Maybe switch out the CIB for a Plasma Rifle to better deal with 2+ saves (but just 1 damage and no overcharge mode hurts a lot). Something of a Dakkamander as a counterpart to the standard Fusionmander. Full kit is (I thought) 148 points with CIB. Thoughts?
davou wrote: Don't feel like the shield generator is worth it to try and soak some shooting on broadsides when the drones run out?
Broadside has 2+ armor save so a SG provides less value. Personally I'd be inclined to take SMS+HRR and put a TL on them so you can move around and still shoot at full BS.
The desired load out I wanted until I saw the restriction that coldstar cant take CIB was HOBC, 2xCIB, and supernova launcher. For some reason though the coldstar cant take CIB (literally has an asterisk at the beginning of the unit listings that says you can't take it). After that I modified my preferred loadout to HOBC, BC, Supernova, ATS.
So it gives you 12 str 5 ap-1 and d6str 6 ap-3 d2 shots for 138 points. Very deadly unit for very little points.
Barf. Hmm, guess I'll have to swap to another BC then. Or maybe I can put 2x CIB, Supernova and ATS on a Manta-striking XV85 Enforcer. Will have to think on it.
What is even the point of the enforcer compared to a stanrard XV8 aside from 1 extra wound? Seems like a redundant entry in the book. Just put it as an option armor like they did with the iridium.
topaxygouroun i wrote: What is even the point of the enforcer compared to a stanrard XV8 aside from 1 extra wound? Seems like a redundant entry in the book. Just put it as an option armor like they did with the iridium.
The Enforcer is a different model from the Crisis suit Commander, so it gets it's own datasheet.
How does the shield drones work? Their 4+ invul seems rather pointless as I can hardly see any reason for targeting them, and I get that they can regain wounds on +5, but they can't do anything els.
Is that ability really that valuable as opposed to a drone that can fire a markerlight?
FunJohn wrote: How does the shield drones work? Their 4+ invul seems rather pointless as I can hardly see any reason for targeting them, and I get that they can regain wounds on +5, but they can't do anything els.
Is that ability really that valuable as opposed to a drone that can fire a markerlight?
Well, if you prefer you can also tank that lascannon shot with your Broadside's face and see how it goes ;-).
davou wrote: Don't feel like the shield generator is worth it to try and soak some shooting on broadsides when the drones run out?
IMO the shield generator is a must-take on HRR Broadies. You simply can't rely on a cover bonus to save you: there is a bunch of weapons that can ignore it outright and AP -4 weapons (which are not that uncommon, see dark and bright lances) will still reliably punch through that save most of the time if you do get one. Not to mention that quite often the places with the cover bonuses (remember, a Broadie needs to be 50% obscured to even get one) are not the ones you want for LoS and board control. Meanwhile the shield drones do cost 20 points and are not infinite (or 100% reliable, you will get the odd 1 for the Look Out Broadie! roll), better than having them absorb the brunt of the fire power all the time is to have a guaranteed way to cut down the number of shots coming their way by half.
Remember that a Broadie has only 6 wounds, it's essentially a rather fragile light vehicle and can get insta-headshotted by an unlucky lascannon hit once it runs out of drones or the Look Out test fails.
However, from my own experience, a Broadside with shield generator, two shield drones and potentially a cover bonus (which you can't rely on, having good lines of sight is always more important than getting the cover bonus if you have to decide between the one or the other) is very hard to kill and makes for an extremely unexciting target for AT firepower as your opponent has to hit, has to wound (usually on 3+) and then faces a 50% chance of the shot simply getting evaporated by the shield generator, in turn followed by the shield drone's 5+ FnP. When the best thing you can expect from an entire Ravager's firepower shooting a broadside is a dead gun drone (and even that's a rather smallish chance thanks to all the chances to fail mentioned above) then they often won't even bother shooting at it much.
This is a great thing because staying on the table for multiple turns allows the Broadside to carry its weight and perform above what can normally be expected of it.
Velocity tracker is good, especially for the points, but also situational and not really much cheaper than the shield gen; and Sa'cea already makes a HRR Broadie rather accurate (and if you take even only one HRR Broadie you definitely want that cheap Sa'cea outrider etachement). Target lock is expensive and ideally the Broadside should be placed somewhere where it can get LoS to begin with, as being able to reposition is only that useful with 5" movement, it's also an effect that can be achieved with 4 markerlights in a pinch. A shield generator is basically guaranteed to be useful in any match-up and in the end increased survivability results in increased damage output as well as reliability as it won't go down easily in the first turn (or later when it is one of the last armoured assets on the table and gets targeted by all the remaining AT). And the ability to make those expensive, high power single/D3 shots simply go poof and vanish in a black hole is always worth it .
I like EWO for railsides. I generally like EWO on broadsides and riptides. I think I will not be leaving home without 2-3 EWO models. There are a lot of silly alpha strikes around and I want to be able to say my thing if they do appear.
That being said, I think missilesides just scream for ATS. It's an extremely important upgrade for them, otherwise it's just autocannons shooting.
By the way I finally got my book and... oh god are crisis suits expensive.... almost 300 pts for a dressed up unit of 3 crisis!!!
As for septs, although I loved Bor'kan at first, I think T'au sept will be a must. Not only because all the named characters are T'au, but also because the sept bonus is so great, especially when combined with the counterfire defense support system. Give your Heavy Burst Cannon T'au sept Riptide an ATS and a Counterfeit defense and suddenly your close combat based opponent doesn't really want to charge any of your units that the Riptide guards, lest they be obliterated in overwatch.
Finally, I think that I will change my plan from multiple 5-man strike teams to 2 units of 12 with Guardian Drones, cadre fireblade and darkstrider, as well as a couple of pulse accelerator drones and an etherial. I then get 36" pulse rifles, 4+/6++/6+++ save on my striker teams, triple shots at 18", +1 to wound from darkstrider. I can even go the extra mile and give the fireblade warlord and "Through unity, devastation" for tasty ap-1 shots.
I feel like this could be a very competitive list.
3 Quadfusion Coldstars would 40" strike and then each have 4 shield drones manta strike down in front of them for protection the following turn.
14 CP - Riptide double Nova and Markerlight strike each turn, and maybe coordinated fire on turn 1
6 firesight marksman (with sa'cea reroll to hit) and 2 cadre fireblades for marker lights will be very reliable (and each strike squad has a ML as well).
Ghostkeels and Riptide will be mid objective grabbing and Strike Teams will hang back at starting objectives.
Sniper Drones are actually quite good right now. 9 of them will be hunting those important buffing characters that try and hide behind squads.
Only main negative I see is with so many small squads thats a lot of kill points....
I feel like this could be a very competitive list.
3 Quadfusion Coldstars would 40" strike and then each have 4 shield drones manta strike down in front of them for protection the following turn.
14 CP - Riptide double Nova and Markerlight strike each turn, and maybe coordinated fire on turn 1
6 firesight marksman (with sa'cea reroll to hit) and 2 cadre fireblades for marker lights will be very reliable (and each strike squad has a ML as well).
Ghostkeels and Riptide will be mid objective grabbing and Strike Teams will hang back at starting objectives.
Sniper Drones are actually quite good right now. 9 of them will be hunting those important buffing characters that try and hide behind squads.
Only main negative I see is with so many small squads thats a lot of kill points....
This looks fun!
I agree about the downside, though. Kill points is such a stupid thing in this game lol
Razerous wrote: What's the chance of the y'vahra getting cheaper?
How much did the riptide drop (as HBC/IA)
Depends. If they don't FAQ y'vahra to not allow him in Bork'an, then he doesn't need to get cheaper as that is basically the best unit in the codex/forgeworld.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
FunJohn wrote: How does the shield drones work? Their 4+ invul seems rather pointless as I can hardly see any reason for targeting them
A tactic I haven't seen suggested yet is running a squad of 6-10 of them and having them charge units that don't want to be tied up in combat. They're mobile, on average needing to be within 19" of a unit at the start of the turn to successfully charge them. How does a low-attack, high Strength/AP unit such as Terminators deal enough wounds to kill all of them within one or two turns? Or how about an elite shooting unit such as devastators? Around 100pts could tie up over 250pts or more by turn 2, and be a complete nightmare to deal with. Is there something I'm missing here? Maybe 5 shield drones and 5 gun drones would be more effective at harassing?
Also means you can't shoot said unit, and with the fall back rules its only worth while against serious shooting units, but it does seam one heck of a way to eat overwatch for fusion blade commanders or farsight if they go to puch out a second unit
Razerous wrote: What's the chance of the y'vahra getting cheaper?
How much did the riptide drop (as HBC/IA)
If anything the Y'vahra will be hit by the nerf hammer. Hard.
I think changing the damage of both weapons from 3 to d3 or 2 (EMP cannon thing is only 3 on nova charge IIRC, otherwise it's just 1) ought to do the trick. Wouldn't want to see it overnerfed, I thought it's as expensive as a Stormsurge pointswise?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Razerous wrote: What's the chance of the y'vahra getting cheaper?
How much did the riptide drop (as HBC/IA)
If anything the Y'vahra will be hit by the nerf hammer. Hard.
I think changing the damage of both weapons from 3 to d3 or 2 (EMP cannon thing is only 3 on nova charge IIRC, otherwise it's just 1) ought to do the trick. Wouldn't want to see it overnerfed, I thought it's as expensive as a Stormsurge pointswise?
Yeah its like just over 400 points with support systems, so its really expensive. Which is why it would be a bummer if they actually did nerf it
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
You are incorrect. Marker drones already include marker light for 10 points total.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Very strange that they would do that on the points page but you are right. Above it's points entry - it says includes all wargear...why not just have them pay for wargear like anything else? IDK. GW is weird.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Very strange that they would do that on the points page but you are right. Above it's points entry - it says includes all wargear...why not just have them pay for wargear like anything else? IDK. GW is weird.
Worse, in the enhanced edition book it says the cost of drones (and named characters) doesn’t include wargear. Most confusing.
It does mean that things like missile drones kind of need to be considered. 20 points isn’t much.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Drones have to pay for their equipment, right? As in, a shield drone is whatever a shield drone costs plus 8 points for the shield gen.
They have a rule called sheild gernerator - they don't actually have the equpitment. The rule also includes the 5+FNP.
Cool. Is that the case for all drones?
The only tactical drone that has to pay for anything is a marker drone. That makes is 13 points.
Are you sure? The points page in the codex say marker drone's points value includes all wargear.
Very strange that they would do that on the points page but you are right. Above it's points entry - it says includes all wargear...why not just have them pay for wargear like anything else? IDK. GW is weird.
Worse, in the enhanced edition book it says the cost of drones (and named characters) doesn’t include wargear. Most confusing.
It does mean that things like missile drones kind of need to be considered. 20 points isn’t much.
And recon drones, which are basically 2 gun drones for the price of one.
Alright - name me a couple of top/good tier lists (netlists, whatever) that have been doing well generally.
The broad strokes, either at 1500/2000pts.
Then.. I'm curious to how we can field parallels (Assumption; Primaris inceptors are great, so how do... stealth suits or crisis suits compare? Of course I appreciate inceptors are probably not must have picks but the principle remains).
Pandabeer wrote: Going to assemble 6 Stealth Suits soon, 2 with FB or full dakka with BC?
I am hoping to try a vanguard with 3 units. 2 3 man with only burst and 1 6 man with 2 fusions. I'll also be running the fusion suits with velocity trackers. For 2 points I think it's the best upgrade for them.
Outrider, Sa'ces Sept
Ethereal (Warlord; Through Unity, Devastation)
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Pathfinders with 2 MLs & 3 Ion Rifles & Recon Drone
Devilfish
Devilfish
__530pts__
What's it good at? Well...
1) dropping 12d3 overcharged ion shots on your preferred target, ignoring cover.
2) facetanking alphastrike with your devilfish, saving your puny lil pathfinders from getting vaporised 1st turn.
3) 2 devilfish to charge upfield and CC units that don't want to be CC'd and be general nusances
4) 8 ablative drone wounds to soak up trouble when they deploy
5) 6++ the first round, and reroll 1s the second
6) Only 2 drops.
7) Ethereal lights up the target and turns some of those ion shots to -2ap
I know it's expensive, and relies on markerlights to be effective, but my goodness it's quite dangerous. It'll kill 7 primaris a turn, or drop a predator. Is it stupid or awesome - you tell me.
I do think it's quite interesting. One thing I'd suggest is replacing the ethereal with a commander. He can deep strike in when you disembark and use Montka. This will let you fire all the markerlights and ion cannons without penalties for moving and firing. And of course the commander will shoot things dead himself.
1. Hammerheads are simply Superior to Broadsides, in my opinion. That's particularly true if you have Longstrike around. I'd switch the Broadsides out for Ionheads.
2. I know the ATT guys are gaga over putting marker lights in Fire Warrior units, but I'm not a fan. You'll have enough protected markers from your Fireblades and Marksmen, and you presumably want that Warrior using his pulse rifle most of the time. I don't think it's an awful way to spend points, but traditional market sources are better, in my opinion.
3. Why not have 2 additional Tau Battalions, or at least 1? You already have extra HQs and full troops units, so just rearrange the units some for an extra 3 CP. It's not like creating more small units is going to hurt you. You'll still hemorrhage VP in kill points missions, either way.
4. Shield drones are 10 pts apiece, not 8.
5. What's up with people putting burst cannons on Hammerheads? I know it's cheap that way, but SMS, man!
Agreed on the above. I think the points calculation for the hammerheads is out as well. They are 161 with ion cannon, 2 BCs and 2 seekers. I suggest you go back and check all your calculations.
Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
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Mandragola wrote: I do think it's quite interesting. One thing I'd suggest is replacing the ethereal with a commander. He can deep strike in when you disembark and use Montka. This will let you fire all the markerlights and ion cannons without penalties for moving and firing. And of course the commander will shoot things dead himself.
Can the commander deep strike and use his master of war ability? I thought he couldn't - did that wording change?
I saw an interesting idea over on ATT involving dual Brigades in 2000pts, and I like it a lot. I figured I'd raise the issue you here for you gents to ponder. Basically, the concept (as I see it, at least) is to run a bare-bones Sa'cea Brigade for marker support (and the 9 CP) plus a Tau Brigade for 21 CP. Spam marker strats and Focus Fire ad nauseam for the first couple turns until the big baddies are gone.
If you really wanted to go nuts, you could splash in a Tau Battalion, too which would net you an extra Commander but would definitely cut down on list flexibility a fair bit. I'm not sure you need more than 21 CP, anyway, since even with a die reroll, focus fire, and both marker strats, you're only burning 7 per turn. Maybe it's worth the extra CP? I dunno, I'll have to play around with a list to figure out whether that many Fire Warriors instead of big daddy suits is worthwhile.
Xenomancers wrote: Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
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Mandragola wrote: I do think it's quite interesting. One thing I'd suggest is replacing the ethereal with a commander. He can deep strike in when you disembark and use Montka. This will let you fire all the markerlights and ion cannons without penalties for moving and firing. And of course the commander will shoot things dead himself.
Can the commander deep strike and use his master of war ability? I thought he couldn't - did that wording change?
Oh yeah of course - no he can't. And of course the pathfinders aren't there at the start of the turn to be affected anyway - as they are inside the devilfishes.
So much for that! Honestly I find kauyon and montka both pretty hard to use effectively. The best option I can think of is to set up shadowsun with a broadside team and other heavy stuff. She can call kauyon twice and use CNC node on the broadsides. Even that feels like kind of a waste of a slot that could contain a fusion coldstar or a CIB X85.
Without much dedicated anti-vehicle stuff, I worry some about the army will struggle against hard targets. Focused Fire will help that issue, and dropping the Commanders on big stuff is, of course, an option. I just don't know if you could reliably take down several vehicles in a turn, even with FF on. Math tells me that you need about 90-ish pulse rifle shots to take down a Razorback with FF and 5 markers, so that's doable with 60 FW, I suppose. You could probably count on downing 3 normal vehicles per turn, assuming average dice and full strat and marker support. Is that enough if your opponent spams them? Not sure. Lots of high armor is also an issue. There's not a whole lot of multi-shot AP. Hordes are no problem. Focus Fire will clean out large chaff units in a hurry if you need a little help, but I'd imagine most things will wither to your triple-tap pulse rifles without much issue. Marker light splashing will also help a bunch.
Durability is a problem since the Riptide is really the only big, scary unit. It'll be damn hard to remove, though, thanks to branched nova charge and repairing and stims and whatnot. Yay for tons of CP, I guess.
Xenomancers wrote: Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
You'll have to wait 6 months or so for me to build and paint it all, I'm just sounding things out before I commit.
GAH! I feel you man. I just painted the first 5 of my 60 firewarriors. They are looking pretty good (painting tau sept) but man - this is a task man!
I’ve got 12 of them nearly done. I’m planning on using somewhere between 12 and 72...
I’m a bit concerned about fire warrior spam. They seem a lot like glass hammers to me. Glass hammer lists really want to go first, but spamming loads of small units is a good way not to do that. It also seems like they’d really suffer to flyrants and dark talons - which are everywhere in the meta right now.
Xenomancers wrote: Seems like a strong list to me. Report back on how it plays!
You'll have to wait 6 months or so for me to build and paint it all, I'm just sounding things out before I commit.
GAH! I feel you man. I just painted the first 5 of my 60 firewarriors. They are looking pretty good (painting tau sept) but man - this is a task man!
I’ve got 12 of them nearly done. I’m planning on using somewhere between 12 and 72...
I’m a bit concerned about fire warrior spam. They seem a lot like glass hammers to me. Glass hammer lists really want to go first, but spamming loads of small units is a good way not to do that. It also seems like they’d really suffer to flyrants and dark talons - which are everywhere in the meta right now.
Thankfully my local meta runs into the same long-term planning issues since we all need to buy and build before fielding anything. Nothing in the tournament meta ever makes it to our tables without there already being thorough counters established because of that.
I would like to ask why everyone is so down on Crisis Suits?
With the cyclic ion blaster buff, the triple cyclic ion blaster suits hit like a truck and they provide way more offensive output for their cost than Stealth suits or Ghostkeels. A few shield drones go a long way towards increasing their survivabilty (which is their weakest point). T5 W3 3+ Sv is pretty resilient to small arms fire and shield drones help stop the big stuff. You manta strike them in to get a guaranteed shooting phase off and you'll mess up anything short of a Land Raider especially with markerlight support. They can't be tied up in close combat and you can even use them to charge to tie other things up. Admittedly, they are too pricey to make a list solely out of them but I think they absolutely have a place in a Tau list. They need a little more thought into their deployment as they won't make their points back in one shooting phase, but I've been using two squads to great effect to roll up flanks and eliminate isolated targets. The fact that they are not as cost effective as the (frankly undercosted) commanders don't mean they are a bad unit. I will admit there should be a separate weapons cost between commanders and regular suits (similar to AM veterans)
Now I will say that loading them out with anything other than cyclic ion blasters has been underwhelming for me and I think the other weapons/options need to be rebalanced. I know this isn't really the forum for this but I think it will help me explain myself:
Missle Pods are a decent weapon but cost way too many points. They need to be dropped to at least the cost of the cyclic ion blaster (trading range for damage output), and/or probably given AP-2 or Str. 8.
Burst cannons should be like 2 points. A storm bolter on a BS 3+ tank is 2 points... This would give an option for a relatively cheap suit. The issue is that if I needed S5 AP0 shooting i would just take fire warriors with a cadre fireblade.
Flamers are tough to balance on suits. With the current deep strike rules there just isn't really a place for them. They could be free and most people still probably wouldn't use them.
The Plasma rifle just needs to be given the imperial statline now that there's a safe firing mode and tau have other overcharging weapons. If given that it would probably justify a price increase to 15 points. (Trades shots for AP over the cyclic ion blaster)
The fusion blaster is the other legitimate option, but I don't prefer it as it more of a specialty anti-tank weapon than the take all comer cyclic ion blaster as I don't want to limit my options.
The airbursting fragmentation projector needs to be reworked completely. Ignore LOS is rarely an issue and without that it's just a worse burst cannon. I'd give 2D6 shots, but then what do you do with the flamer?
In summary, I think Crisis Suits compare favorably with our other Elite choices (Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, Rip tide, etc.) with the cyclic ion blaster buff and are valuable part of a Tau army. Have any of you actually tried using them and what have you experienced?
If Crisis Suits had just gone down by ten points, I think they'd be fieldable. Even a minimum-supplied unit with each sporting burst cannon would have been usable then. As it stands? I just can't pull it off.
Though it is even worse than that. It is 126 points as we can't take lone suits anymore. If we could take lone suits, then I could see crisis suits still having a role of suicide melta drop, even at their current cost. Having to take three in a unit means that you have too many points invested in that unit for such a role to work, not to mention the problem of having to find a space to put down three bases in range of your target as opposed to one.
Yeah the points costs and power of crisis suits and their weapons is all over the place.
Mostly they are just way over-costed for what they deliver. The price of missile pods in particular is just stupid, but I agree that burst cannons are too pricey too.
Plasma is odd because they kind of aren’t terrible - they are just annoying. How come a tau plasma rifle is so much worse than an imperial one - even when not overcharging? 225 for 18 s6 ap -3 shots isn’t terrible, but it’s nowhere near what scions will do.
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
Thoughts on suits; the minimum threshold is too high.
3 suits, 8 burst cannons and a drone controller could be an interesting option.
80-93pts more for 8-9 less slots; that are +2-3str with -1AP (Or are we saying ATS+ 2xCIB is roughly the same?) that can do D3 damage.
Against vehicles, D3 damage in unquestionably better, so the CIB *wins*
However against all other targets (per point/per minimum threshold), how good are burst cannons vs. CIB. My math suggests it's 3.5 marines to 4-5 (Depending on Overcharge)..
Does the CIB benefit more from buffs, do they get better quicker?
It feels like; 195pts for a drone-buffing unit (multi-role) that puts out 32 str5 shots is goodish. 288pts for 27 str7-8 shots (the overcharge is good but due to high VoF, you've got likely odds to often get a 1 re-rolling into 1's, as 1-in-36 is statistically guaranteed), underwhelming. I agree it either needs a point reduction or a squad-size minimum of 1 or 2.
Captain Joystick wrote: So I was reading the stat-line of the broadside's heavy rail and getting more and more excited as I went, it looked like it's heavy 2 with D6 damage (and mortal wounds on a 6 to wound) would finally bring it in line with the missile pod (twice as many attacks, half damage, a little over half range).
Then I read the unit profile and it says you replace the railgun for a pair of them.
Ugh.
Also marker lights have changed noticeably. We're back to them acting as universal effects on the unit hit by them, so multiple units can benefit at once and not have to chose expending them for what benefits.
Unfortunately, the BS bonus is now the highest tier benefit, and it appears to cap at +1.
On top of that, the drone controller now also appears to cap at a +1 BS bonus, meaning my favourite commander loadout will have to be reconsidered. It does mean that, broadly, marker drones are no longer the undisputed marker light dispensing king, but they're still probably the strongest contender, being buffable to 'as good as' pathfinders on the shot and able to move besides.
I'll want to compare it to how the local meta shapes up, but I'm thinking about railheads again.
Couple of things:
- The HRR is cheaper than the missile pods
- The HYMPs have AP -1 compared to the HRRs -4, so the HYMP requires ATS while the HRR has more freedom in choosing its support system.
Captain Joystick wrote: So I was reading the stat-line of the broadside's heavy rail and getting more and more excited as I went, it looked like it's heavy 2 with D6 damage (and mortal wounds on a 6 to wound) would finally bring it in line with the missile pod (twice as many attacks, half damage, a little over half range).
Then I read the unit profile and it says you replace the railgun for a pair of them.
Ugh.
Also marker lights have changed noticeably. We're back to them acting as universal effects on the unit hit by them, so multiple units can benefit at once and not have to chose expending them for what benefits.
Unfortunately, the BS bonus is now the highest tier benefit, and it appears to cap at +1.
On top of that, the drone controller now also appears to cap at a +1 BS bonus, meaning my favourite commander loadout will have to be reconsidered. It does mean that, broadly, marker drones are no longer the undisputed marker light dispensing king, but they're still probably the strongest contender, being buffable to 'as good as' pathfinders on the shot and able to move besides.
I'll want to compare it to how the local meta shapes up, but I'm thinking about railheads again.
Couple of things:
- The HRR is cheaper than the missile pods
- The HYMPs have AP -1 compared to the HRRs -4, so the HYMP requires ATS while the HRR has more freedom in choosing its support system.
Invulnerable saves are a real problem for railguns, of any variety. You're paying a lot for a good AP, but often that's wasted.
So for example a commander with fusion blasters in theory does slightly more damage to a normal tank than a CIB commander. But the CIB guy's damage is consistent if he fires at a daemon primarch or a flyrant, while the fusion blaster guy's damage drops by half.
Often the high-shot low-ap weapon does flat out more damage right from the start. So an ion cannon simpy out-damages a railgun, is less affected by invulnerable saves and costs less. There's basically no argument for ever taking a railhead, when you can have a cheaper option that's better against any target. And with longstrike around they are immune to overheating - unless they fire at planes etc.
Railgun broadsides are one possible exception. Going from S7 to 8 makes a big difference. The cumulative effect of the much better AP, better strength, D6 damage and occasional mortal wounds mean they actually do better damage per point to tanks than HYMP broadsides. To be fair, neither is actually all that great. With broadsids you're paying for staying power and raining SMS on things, not a heavy alpha strike.
A unit of broadsides is probably the only thing (with the possible exception of a big unit of crisis suits) worth using the CNC node stratagem on. But even then the damage commanders hand out is significantly higher, point for point. I've looked at taking a virtually unarmed commander to sit with some broadsides, a stormsurge and/or a riptide and call kauyon for a massive turn 1 shooting phase. It's an option, but I'm honestly not that keen.
Razerous wrote: Thoughts on suits; the minimum threshold is too high.
3 suits, 8 burst cannons and a drone controller could be an interesting option.
80-93pts more for 8-9 less slots; that are +2-3str with -1AP (Or are we saying ATS+ 2xCIB is roughly the same?) that can do D3 damage.
Against vehicles, D3 damage in unquestionably better, so the CIB *wins*
However against all other targets (per point/per minimum threshold), how good are burst cannons vs. CIB. My math suggests it's 3.5 marines to 4-5 (Depending on Overcharge)..
Does the CIB benefit more from buffs, do they get better quicker?
It feels like; 195pts for a drone-buffing unit (multi-role) that puts out 32 str5 shots is goodish. 288pts for 27 str7-8 shots (the overcharge is good but due to high VoF, you've got likely odds to often get a 1 re-rolling into 1's, as 1-in-36 is statistically guaranteed), underwhelming. I agree it either needs a point reduction or a squad-size minimum of 1 or 2.
Problem with burst cannons is that you can get S5 AP0 1D firepower for MUCH cheaper on Fire Warriors, and if you're looking for board control/ forward firepower with BCs you're probably better off with Stealth Suits. Crisis suits are definitely viable with CIBs or Fusion Blasters when played as FSE with their +1 to hit stratagem (especially nice on mass CIB as it renders you immune to overheating against most targets) but I can see why non-FSE players have had trouble finding a niche for them. I don't think reducing their base cost is going to solve the problem however. I don't think that they're that expensive for a T5 3W 3+ save platform with huge range of customization options. What I think should happen is split their weapon options in BS4+ versions for normal suits and 2+ versions for Commanders and put appropriate price tags on them for the Ballistic Skill at which they're going to be used (meaning a reduction for normal Crisis Suits and maybe a slight price increase for Commanders).
Agree with the above, and I'd add that Hazard suits still exist. You can get 4 burst cannons plus an ATS for 95 pts (for now - will likely decrease with the FAQ, if anything) instead of 3 unsupported cannons for 66 on a weaker platform.
I think if someone is going to get crisis (which I don't advise),then go the extra mile and get the bodyguards. People have been suggesting dropping shield drones to prevent retaliation on the advancing coldstar commander, but those can be bypassed. Bodyguard crisis though do not need to be the closest model to protect your commander, they just have to be there. And the 3 extra ppm is not a huge tax to pay.
topaxygouroun i wrote: I think if someone is going to get crisis (which I don't advise),then go the extra mile and get the bodyguards. People have been suggesting dropping shield drones to prevent retaliation on the advancing coldstar commander, but those can be bypassed. Bodyguard crisis though do not need to be the closest model to protect your commander, they just have to be there. And the 3 extra ppm is not a huge tax to pay.
True, but they're VERY expensive to just use as 1-turn bodyguards for a Coldstar (because Crisis suits can't keep up with a Coldstar and they have to be within 3"). It's not like Mortarion with Deathshrouds where, if played well, Mortarion can make back the extra ~200 points that 1 turn of 6 ablative wounds will cost him.
Maybe it would be nice for a XV85 Enforcer with 3x CIB + Supernova Launcher that deepstrikes with them and stays with them (easy because same movement speed). Or maybe even with Farsight where Farsight charges something while the Crisis Bodyguards stay within 3" at point blank firing range (although I guess with smart model placement an opponent can easily force the Crisis Guards to fall back more than 3" from Farsight because they can't shoot otherwise) to make the opponent wonder how the hell a Crisis suit with a sword just outdueled his Bloodthirster.
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MilkmanAl wrote: Agree with the above, and I'd add that Hazard suits still exist. You can get 4 burst cannons plus an ATS for 95 pts (for now - will likely decrease with the FAQ, if anything) instead of 3 unsupported cannons for 66 on a weaker platform.
Pity they're FW though (and therefore often banned). I'd also like to try out those Fusion Cascade things as I play FSE, they're basically melta shotguns IIRC
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.
I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.
It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.
If bodyguards had been able to take matching suits as the commanders they would have instantly had a role.
Also bodyguards also having an additional attack over a standard crisis suit, not exactly ground breaking but if your fielding farsight it helps.
Perhaps controvercially, I'm not sure I agree that 66ppm is too much for 12 burst cannon shots that can deep strike. A squad of 3 actually cost about the same as 12 fire warriors in a devilfish, for roughly the same damage output (unless there's a fireblade nearby, which won't always be the case).
They also deep strike, and they fire from 18" away without needing support.
I don't think that BC crisis suits are amazingly good, but I think they are a potential option.
Generally I think that the price of the "body" is too high, and the prices of the weapons are stupidly random. Missile pods obviously aren't worth 24 points. I really think they should have put in different prices for guns depending on what is carrying them, because guns on commanders are so much better than they are on crisis suits - or any of the BS4+ platforms.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.
I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.
It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.
Maybe combine it with a 2 weapon hardpoint and 1 support system limitation. I love the support system slots being separate on keels, tides, surges etc.
But now I'm getting into wishlisting when realistically points is probably easier to balance.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.
I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.
It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.
Maybe combine it with a 2 weapon hardpoint and 1 support system limitation. I love the support system slots being separate on keels, tides, surges etc.
But now I'm getting into wishlisting when realistically points is probably easier to balance.
I think you're probably right about this. At the moment, it's hard to justify using a hardpoint on a crisis suit or commander for a support system - so they don't have them. If it was 2 guns and a support system slot then that would make more sense.
I wouldn't make them BS3+ though. Instead I'd make them cost a lot less. Right now they are extreme glass cannons, with 3 wounds and ~60 points worth of weapons. They aren't in the insane territory of centurions, but they aren't far off.
Instead I'd go to BS3+ when a model is a shas'vre. So bodyguard suits, riptides, ghostkeels etc should be BS3+. I don't see why a hammerhead gets BS3+ and none of the suits do - especially when they are piloted by higher-ranking Tau.
Regarding marker lights, I confess that I haven't been very high on them at all since 8th dropped. However, the ATT guys seem convinced that they're a crucial part of any strong Tau list. Since the advent of Sa'cea, that's a concept I'm somewhat coming around to but am a little skeptical of. I like our marker light strats, especially the Sa'cea specific light splash one for essentially army-wide rerolls of 1s, which is extremely helpful on the turn you bring your Commanders in. Stacked markers are certainly helpful for taking down important targets, and since we can hide reliable markers so effectively now, 5 hits is fairly easy to come by with a bit of planning.
Consequently, i'm thinking a Sa'cea detachment of some sort will be really helpful for marker support. I'd probably either do a Vanguard with a Fireblade and some Marksmen or a Battlion for the CP. Alternatively, a bare-bones Brigade like I mentioned previously would be an excellent CP boost for ~800 pts. You'd have all the markers you'd ever need plus a Commander and some particularly accurate Sniper Drones included in that cost.
MilkmanAl wrote: Regarding marker lights, I confess that I haven't been very high on them at all since 8th dropped. However, the ATT guys seem convinced that they're a crucial part of any strong Tau list. Since the advent of Sa'cea, that's a concept I'm somewhat coming around to but am a little skeptical of. I like our marker light strats, especially the Sa'cea specific light splash one for essentially army-wide rerolls of 1s, which is extremely helpful on the turn you bring your Commanders in. Stacked markers are certainly helpful for taking down important targets, and since we can hide reliable markers so effectively now, 5 hits is fairly easy to come by with a bit of planning.
Consequently, i'm thinking a Sa'cea detachment of some sort will be really helpful for marker support. I'd probably either do a Vanguard with a Fireblade and some Marksmen or a Battlion for the CP. Alternatively, a bare-bones Brigade like I mentioned previously would be an excellent CP boost for ~800 pts. You'd have all the markers you'd ever need plus a Commander and some particularly accurate Sniper Drones included in that cost.
Don't forget throwing markerlights into Strike teams for extra sources in that brigade. Sa'cea can ensure you get re-roll 1 nearly army wide for anything you want to target, which is awesome, and might even help you drop target locks in favour of some other support systems.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Honestly, I think a 10 point reduction is an absolute must, and then either allow units to be 1+ or reduce weapon cost.
I'd prefer they just finally become BS 3+.
It would be nice, but not very fair. With marker lights and the plethora of reroll 1's we have, it would mean being able to field an army that relatively speaking never misses any of its shots. The cost of every weapon in the codex would be fethed at that point.
Maybe combine it with a 2 weapon hardpoint and 1 support system limitation. I love the support system slots being separate on keels, tides, surges etc.
But now I'm getting into wishlisting when realistically points is probably easier to balance.
I'd go a step further and do the same to commanders. (enforcers get 3 weapons + 1 system, coldstars get 2 weapons +1 system). That would solve more problems than points could.
Dandelion wrote: I'd go a step further and do the same to commanders. (enforcers get 3 weapons + 1 system, coldstars get 2 weapons +1 system). That would solve more problems than points could.
While that would definitely give the Enforcer a bit more to its name outside of being the middle child, I'm not sure it's worth nerfing Commanders any further.
Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Ya know it would of been cool if a mander had equipment based buff options that ate slots.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.
Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.
They can still be powerful, but they shouldn't be the best at everything. If anything they should be a tad inefficient at shooting compared to Crisis suits (points wise) but that is made up with aura buffs.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.
Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.
Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.
Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.
Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.
I'd just extent the range to either 18" or the whole board.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.
Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.
Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.
What infantry horde list wants to move advance and shoot? More to the point, what infantry horde list wants to move, advance and shoot rather than re-roll failed hits, especially when Bor'kan sept exists which means that pulse rifles can hit most of the board without moving?
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.
Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.
Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.
What infantry horde list wants to move advance and shoot? More to the point, what infantry horde list wants to move, advance and shoot rather than re-roll failed hits, especially when Bor'kan sept exists which means that pulse rifles can hit most of the board without moving?
Part of the problem with Montka is that you have to call it at the start of the turn. So it's not much use on breachers, who are likely in a transport at that point... or dead.
I really don't like the ability. In fact I don't like eihter that or Kauyon. The problem is it doesn't work at all for a commander to be hanging out with static shooty units - that's not his role at all. Giving a unit of broadsides (for example) rerolls to hit just isn't really worth losing your commander's shooting.
You could potentially look at having a missile pod commander to call kauyon, so that you had a strong alpha strike. I don't think it works all that well though.
I don't think either should be an aura ability either. It's not as if the shaso is sticking his head out of his suit and shouting at people. In either case it's a planned strategy being executed by combined arms.
I think I'd rewrite both abilities completely. But I don't write the rules!
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
Mont'ka certainly needs changing. As it is now, it is rendered basically useless as most of the models which would be hanging around with the commander and would benefit can already get the same result from markerlights, target locks or Vior'la sept.
Really the only units you might even want to use it on are Riptides or Ghostkeels.
Its's not terrible with an infantry horde list too.
What infantry horde list wants to move advance and shoot? More to the point, what infantry horde list wants to move, advance and shoot rather than re-roll failed hits, especially when Bor'kan sept exists which means that pulse rifles can hit most of the board without moving?
I was thinking firewarriors. It would allow them to advance and fire their rapid fire weapons. If you are able to rapid turn 1 it represents a 200% increase in firepower. If you have something along the lines of 60 fariewarriors - that is huge.
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Mandragola wrote: Part of the problem with Montka is that you have to call it at the start of the turn. So it's not much use on breachers, who are likely in a transport at that point... or dead.
I really don't like the ability. In fact I don't like eihter that or Kauyon. The problem is it doesn't work at all for a commander to be hanging out with static shooty units - that's not his role at all. Giving a unit of broadsides (for example) rerolls to hit just isn't really worth losing your commander's shooting.
You could potentially look at having a missile pod commander to call kauyon, so that you had a strong alpha strike. I don't think it works all that well though.
I don't think either should be an aura ability either. It's not as if the shaso is sticking his head out of his suit and shouting at people. In either case it's a planned strategy being executed by combined arms.
I think I'd rewrite both abilities completely. But I don't write the rules!
Other than the fact that the missle is overcosted - it works incredibly well. Though It might actually work better to build with CIB and just give up a turn of shooting to use the reroll wounds for a battle suit unit ability (maybe on 3 broadsides).
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.
No, they are really not.
They should have a two-gun cap (so should regular crisis) and given actual useful auras that are not idiotic, and the price points adjusted.
As long as the commander is a 4-gun BS2 character-and basically nothing else, it shall be either overpriced to the point of absurdity, or spammed as much as the local rules allow.
Also, nobody will ever take any support system, because its just silly.
Basically, the entire battlesuit line needs a rework rulewise.
Crisis and commanders are nonsense and compete over the same job because commanders practically have no aura (and to top it, shadowsun's speciality is to double down on the option she isn't likely to ever use?)
Riptides and ghostkeels being supposedly mobile platforms but are really not needs fixing.
Support systems themselves are in dire need of fixing, and GW obviously don't understand what makes a support system good., for example can anyone find a reason why the multi-tracker got x4 times more expensive plus weaker when nobody even took it's index version because rerolling 1s is everywhere anyway?
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.
No, they are really not.
They should have a two-gun cap (so should regular crisis) and given actual useful auras that are not idiotic, and the price points adjusted.
As long as the commander is a 4-gun BS2 character-and basically nothing else, it shall be either overpriced to the point of absurdity, or spammed as much as the local rules allow.
Also, nobody will ever take any support system, because its just silly.
Basically, the entire battlesuit line needs a rework rulewise.
Crisis and commanders are nonsense and compete over the same job because commanders practically have no aura (and to top it, shadowsun's speciality is to double down on the option she isn't likely to ever use?)
Riptides and ghostkeels being supposedly mobile platforms but are really not needs fixing.
Support systems themselves are in dire need of fixing, and GW obviously don't understand what makes a support system good., for example can anyone find a reason why the multi-tracker got x4 times more expensive plus weaker when nobody even took it's index version because rerolling 1s is everywhere anyway?
The multi-tracker was nerfed because re-rolling 1's wasn't really easy to acquire in the Commander and gun drone spam. It contributed to that, so it needed to be changed.
Captain Joystick wrote: So I was reading the stat-line of the broadside's heavy rail and getting more and more excited as I went, it looked like it's heavy 2 with D6 damage (and mortal wounds on a 6 to wound) would finally bring it in line with the missile pod (twice as many attacks, half damage, a little over half range).
Then I read the unit profile and it says you replace the railgun for a pair of them.
Ugh.
Also marker lights have changed noticeably. We're back to them acting as universal effects on the unit hit by them, so multiple units can benefit at once and not have to chose expending them for what benefits.
Unfortunately, the BS bonus is now the highest tier benefit, and it appears to cap at +1.
On top of that, the drone controller now also appears to cap at a +1 BS bonus, meaning my favourite commander loadout will have to be reconsidered. It does mean that, broadly, marker drones are no longer the undisputed marker light dispensing king, but they're still probably the strongest contender, being buffable to 'as good as' pathfinders on the shot and able to move besides.
I'll want to compare it to how the local meta shapes up, but I'm thinking about railheads again.
Couple of things:
- The HRR is cheaper than the missile pods
- The HYMPs have AP -1 compared to the HRRs -4, so the HYMP requires ATS while the HRR has more freedom in choosing its support system.
Invulnerable saves are a real problem for railguns, of any variety. You're paying a lot for a good AP, but often that's wasted.
So for example a commander with fusion blasters in theory does slightly more damage to a normal tank than a CIB commander. But the CIB guy's damage is consistent if he fires at a daemon primarch or a flyrant, while the fusion blaster guy's damage drops by half.
Often the high-shot low-ap weapon does flat out more damage right from the start. So an ion cannon simpy out-damages a railgun, is less affected by invulnerable saves and costs less. There's basically no argument for ever taking a railhead, when you can have a cheaper option that's better against any target. And with longstrike around they are immune to overheating - unless they fire at planes etc.
Railgun broadsides are one possible exception. Going from S7 to 8 makes a big difference. The cumulative effect of the much better AP, better strength, D6 damage and occasional mortal wounds mean they actually do better damage per point to tanks than HYMP broadsides. To be fair, neither is actually all that great. With broadsids you're paying for staying power and raining SMS on things, not a heavy alpha strike.
A unit of broadsides is probably the only thing (with the possible exception of a big unit of crisis suits) worth using the CNC node stratagem on. But even then the damage commanders hand out is significantly higher, point for point. I've looked at taking a virtually unarmed commander to sit with some broadsides, a stormsurge and/or a riptide and call kauyon for a massive turn 1 shooting phase. It's an option, but I'm honestly not that keen.
I'd say if you are going to do a buff mander - you still give him a good weapons load out - later in close games having 2+ to hit units is important. Probably 3CIB ATS enforcer would work best here - it probably wasn't going to have good shoot turn 1 anyways unless he suicides - but why suicide when he can make a 3 man broadside unit reroll all hits and wounds? That possibly might do as much damage as your suicide attack.
Dandelion wrote: Commanders are still too good. The hard cap hasn't changed that.
Buff crisis suits and we won't need commanders. Though Commanders need a better aura for sure.
I think Commanders are mostly fine right now really. I think they should be powerful and the cap is enough to discourage excessive spamming. But it would be nice if Commanders had support systems that provide some kind of aura yes.
No, they are really not.
They should have a two-gun cap (so should regular crisis) and given actual useful auras that are not idiotic, and the price points adjusted.
As long as the commander is a 4-gun BS2 character-and basically nothing else, it shall be either overpriced to the point of absurdity, or spammed as much as the local rules allow.
Also, nobody will ever take any support system, because its just silly.
Basically, the entire battlesuit line needs a rework rulewise.
Crisis and commanders are nonsense and compete over the same job because commanders practically have no aura (and to top it, shadowsun's speciality is to double down on the option she isn't likely to ever use?)
Riptides and ghostkeels being supposedly mobile platforms but are really not needs fixing.
Support systems themselves are in dire need of fixing, and GW obviously don't understand what makes a support system good., for example can anyone find a reason why the multi-tracker got x4 times more expensive plus weaker when nobody even took it's index version because rerolling 1s is everywhere anyway?
There are times when taking 3 guns and ATS is suitable on a commander. 3 CIB ATS commanders are really great and cheap too. There's also relic weapons that benefit from the bonus -1AP a great deal. Mainly the high output burst cannon and relic supernova launcher.
The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
Well, I disagree with literally everything you said here.
Multi tracker is crap. OFC.
For some reason the codex has an over abundence of ways to get reroll 1's in shooting. With marker lights being so central to the armies design - it makes all of these options crap. If you were playing tyranids though - multi tracker would be a great upgrade for a lot of units.
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
Well, I disagree with literally everything you said here.
I am most certainly never leaving home without at least one EWO on my Riptide, and quite possibly a second one somewhere else too. There are so many alpha strike armies at the moment it would be stupid not to take it.
Also CDS in the T'au sept is CRAZY good. Especially if you consider the fact that T'au sept is the only one having access to Longstrike and also the +1 to wound stratagem.
I think most other armies would be giving an arm and a leg to have such kind of upgrade options available to them.
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
Well, I disagree with literally everything you said here.
Why? I thought it was pretty accurate. Are there choices on here that you have gotten good mileage out of?
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
So, let's see:
- SG: Mandatory on the Stormsurge. Almost mandatory on the Ghostkeel as well unless you're going for a yolo glasscannon with ATS, TL and the Cyclic Ion Raker.
- CDS: kind of niche, but potentially very good on T'au sept Riptides, Stormsurges and Broadsides.
- MT: Got me there. Reroll 1s is quite easy to access so I don't really see a niche for this.
- TL: (almost) mandatory on Ghostkeels and Riptides. Broadsides can greatly benefit from it as well if they are forced to move to get a good shot. The TL effect requires 4 markerlights now so it's a lot harder to get.
- VT: This ones' niche as well, but if you know your opponent is going to bring units with the Fly keyword can be quite useful.
- EWO: mandatory on a non-T'au sept Stormsurge (in a TAC list scenario), although I'll admit that's mostly because it has an inbuilt TL so the 3rd support system slot can be spent on the EWO (because SG and ATS are mandatory on the Surge at all times). Makes deepstriking within 12" of the Stormsurge nearly impossible, so a very good way tp protect a gunline from would-be deepstriking CC units.
Also, there are (almost) no gaming systems in existence that offer true choices in these kind of things. Take a look at talent trees in videogames for example, which is a nice analogy for the support system table. EVERYONE takes the same cookie cutter build no matter how the developers try to offer "actual choice" because there's always that one talent combination that cranks out the most DPS, can take the most punishment or offers that one super wombo-combo of special effects (crowd control chains, stacking buffs so you're Superman for 15 seconds, etc.). Sure, other builds might be viable in some niche circumstances (see CDS and VT in the support system table) but 90% of the time the cookie cutter build performs best so is taken.
CfDS is absolutely beast on storm surges - IMO it's > EWO.
EWO will literally never produce offense for you - it is just a no fly zone. If you have a lot of no fly zones though - they will just overload against one of them and a SS hitting on 5's has a high chance to do nothing special.
For any tau sept though you can hit on 5'6' in overwatch for 1 CP - and tau can do it for free. This makes you 5 to hit with reroll vs any unit charging any of your units within 6" of you. It will net 2x the damage as EWO if they want to charge your pathetic in CC tau and it's even possible that you can overwatch more than once in a turn (realistically - they just wont charge you)
As far as offense goes though - VT is my preferred upgrade for a surge. It's going to produce offense in almost every game .
BoomWolf wrote: The fact the ATS is good does not mean that support systems as a whole are good.
Its ONE system.
Shield generator is a possible second viable one.
The entire rest? overpriced, fringe effect, do something markerlights do anyway or a combination of the above.
Who ever takes a CDS? (though it causes the amusement of T'au sept units being somehow better at overwatch than regular shooting)
The MT, even at 2 points and always on was hardly ever taken
Target Lock? either you have to have it because you got no markers, or you outright ignore it.
VT? sure, if you got nothing else to put on said suit.
EWO? somehow shooting in your opponent's turn STILL isn't worth it because of having too many strings attached.
The fact is, the support system are broken from the core, they are not actual choices because they are all either something you HAVE to take to be work, or just not worth bothering with.
Its only an actual choice when there are multiple options worth considering.
So, let's see:
- SG: Mandatory on the Stormsurge. Almost mandatory on the Ghostkeel as well unless you're going for a yolo glasscannon with ATS, TL and the Cyclic Ion Raker.
- CDS: kind of niche, but potentially very good on T'au sept Riptides, Stormsurges and Broadsides.
- MT: Got me there. Reroll 1s is quite easy to access so I don't really see a niche for this.
- TL: (almost) mandatory on Ghostkeels and Riptides. Broadsides can greatly benefit from it as well if they are forced to move to get a good shot. The TL effect requires 4 markerlights now so it's a lot harder to get.
- VT: This ones' niche as well, but if you know your opponent is going to bring units with the Fly keyword can be quite useful.
- EWO: mandatory on a non-T'au sept Stormsurge (in a TAC list scenario), although I'll admit that's mostly because it has an inbuilt TL so the 3rd support system slot can be spent on the EWO (because SG and ATS are mandatory on the Surge at all times). Makes deepstriking within 12" of the Stormsurge nearly impossible, so a very good way tp protect a gunline from would-be deepstriking CC units.
Mostly agree with this, though I will expand on the (almost) mandatory aspect of TL on Riptides in particular. Usually you want to light up the target you're going to focus with your Riptide, so TL tends to be wasted since you gain that ability with ML tokens. I think it's much closer to mandatory on Ghostkeels given the targets they are likely to be engaging.
CDS is a bit more than kind of niche, but you're mostly on point here because it's best on T'au. With clever positioning a good chunk of your army can participate in overwatch, so adding more damage into that is a huge benefit.
Quite honestly, you've done a great job describing the value of these - everything except the MT has a pretty solid effect, even if it isn't entirely universal. A TL, as mentioned before, is worthless against a target with 5ML, just like a SG is useless against weapons with no AP. Or a VT is useless against an army without flying, or a CDS is useless against another gunline that doesn't want to charge you. Most armies have some sort of deep strike unit, so EWO is almost always useful.
The thing with support systems is that although they are kind of useful, when it comes to crisis suits/commanders you're always better off just taking another gun. The systems work well enough for suits with dedicated slots.
If I were to change anything, I would certainly force a hard point on crisis and commanders to be a support system. And drop their cost. A crisis suit can take an extra CIB for only 6 more points than an ATS...
Dandelion wrote: The thing with support systems is that although they are kind of useful, when it comes to crisis suits/commanders you're always better off just taking another gun. The systems work well enough for suits with dedicated slots.
If I were to change anything, I would certainly force a hard point on crisis and commanders to be a support system. And drop their cost. A crisis suit can take an extra CIB for only 6 more points than an ATS...
Depends. I like a couple of SGs in my Crisis team to tank high damage/ AP shots with after my drones are gone, and one of my Crisis suits also has a Drone Controller to improve Gun Drone BS with (I deepstrike with a bunch of gun drone and I figured that the loss of one CIB was worth getting +1 BS on a lot of Gun Drone shots). My Commander also has a SG because he has the Fusion Blades so he needs to be able to survive in melee with Big Bads.
Quick question about the Dal'yth strike and fade strategem. If I am reading it correctly and understand the order of operations, you have to declare it at the start of the shooting phase, immediately shoot with that unit and then move it?
So no getting the benefits of markerlights for that unit..
Or can you simple declare it at the start of the shooting phase and continue as normal, and make the move after the selected unit shoots?
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
Red Dog Minis, formerly Paulson Games, makes excellent alternate weapon bits for Tau units, including the CIB and AirFrag. Not that anybody wants to use the AirFrag, but the point is that a high-quality, relatively inexpensive modeling option for it exists.
To add my opinion on Crisis suits and tactics, I've run a whole series of spreadsheets calculating PPW (Points Per Wound Inflicted) for all manner of Tau units, all different loadouts, against several different target profiles. There are really only two things you want Crisis suits for at the moment: Triple CIBs to take on MEqs, and triple Flamers for hordes. Any other job there is, another Tau unit that does it significantly more efficiently.
Similarly, while Riptides are vastly improved with their lower points cost, the only time they are your best option offensively is loaded up with HBC, 2 SMS, ATS, & TL, to hunt MEqs. Now, offense isn't its only use, obviously. The Riptide has a reputation for being big and scary, so it also serves marvelously as a bullet sponge that can still dish out some damage. The Ghostkeel serves a similar function, but cheaper and at a smaller scale.
I'd also like to point out that Gun Drones are still awesome against hordes, and do really well against MEqs too with a Drone Controller nearby. Imagine dropping a 3-suit Crisis team with 8 CIBs, a Drone Controller, and 6 Gun Drones next to a Marine unit, with at least one Markerlight hit to get the re-roll 1s effect. That's 9 dead Tacticals, or 6 dead Primaris, or even 4 dead Terminators, from a 347-point unit that effectively has to lose 6 wounds before it loses even 25% of its firepower.
Hammerhead Gunship 175
Ion Cannon
2 Smart Missile Systems
2 Seeker Missiles
Hammerhead Gunship 175
Ion Cannon
2 Smart Missile Systems
2 Seeker Missiles
3 Sniper Drones 54
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
So 4 of the fire warrior teams start in devilfish, along with the fireblade and maybe the marksman. Ghostkeels are for screening and then making a nuisance of themselves. The hammerheads provide a pretty heavy alpha against enemy tanks, if I get first turn. That's where the plan starts to fall down a little though if I'm honest. I've got a lot of units, and not a huge chance of going first.
I'm going to a tournament in April that only allows one of each kind of detachment - which rules out taking multiple battalions. I think a brigade is the best option in that scenario. But I do want to go first - a lot. So here's an alternative option, where that's rather more likely. The first list has 15 or 16 drops. The second has 8. Any thoughts on which is better?
Tau Vanguard
Enforcer Commander 148
4 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Vectored Manoeuvering Thrusters
Longstrike 212
Ion Cannon
2 Smart Missile Systems
2 Seeker Missiles
Cadre Fireblade 42
Markerlight
5 Fire Warriors 35
6 Fire Warriors 42
6 Fire Warriors 42
6 Fire Warriors 42
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
Devilfish 112
Burst Cannon
2 Gun Drones
Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment
Stormsurge 456
Pulse Driver Cannon
Cluster Rocket System
Four Destroyer Missiles
Two Burst Cannons
Two Smart Missile Systems
Advanced Targeting System
Shield Generator
Early Warning Override
An option might be to swap the Stormsurge for a unit of broadsides. I could probably just about stretch to a spearhead detachment if I did that, if I added another cheap HQ. Not sure which is better.
Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
Red Dog Minis, formerly Paulson Games, makes excellent alternate weapon bits for Tau units, including the CIB and AirFrag. Not that anybody wants to use the AirFrag, but the point is that a high-quality, relatively inexpensive modeling option for it exists.
To add my opinion on Crisis suits and tactics, I've run a whole series of spreadsheets calculating PPW (Points Per Wound Inflicted) for all manner of Tau units, all different loadouts, against several different target profiles. There are really only two things you want Crisis suits for at the moment: Triple CIBs to take on MEqs, and triple Flamers for hordes. Any other job there is, another Tau unit that does it significantly more efficiently.
Similarly, while Riptides are vastly improved with their lower points cost, the only time they are your best option offensively is loaded up with HBC, 2 SMS, ATS, & TL, to hunt MEqs. Now, offense isn't its only use, obviously. The Riptide has a reputation for being big and scary, so it also serves marvelously as a bullet sponge that can still dish out some damage. The Ghostkeel serves a similar function, but cheaper and at a smaller scale.
I'd also like to point out that Gun Drones are still awesome against hordes, and do really well against MEqs too with a Drone Controller nearby. Imagine dropping a 3-suit Crisis team with 8 CIBs, a Drone Controller, and 6 Gun Drones next to a Marine unit, with at least one Markerlight hit to get the re-roll 1s effect. That's 9 dead Tacticals, or 6 dead Primaris, or even 4 dead Terminators, from a 347-point unit that effectively has to lose 6 wounds before it loses even 25% of its firepower.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head.
I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
I don't think having 3 fusion Coldstars is overkill at all, but running CIBs is also a great option. Really, anything will work well when it hits on a 2+, but fusion and CIB are easily our best loadouts.
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
I don't think having 3 fusion Coldstars is overkill at all, but running CIBs is also a great option. Really, anything will work well when it hits on a 2+, but fusion and CIB are easily our best loadouts.
Its been repeated like 400 times, No CIB for coldstars alowed
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
I agree overall, but if you're willing to babysit them a little bit, the triple CIB loadout can be pretty impressive, if you look at the numbers. I think the only time I'd give that a shot would be in a FSE Crisis Bomb, though. The +1 to hit makes them an absolute wrecking crew...for a turn. After that, they're a massively expensive and fragile unit that still dishes the hurt but will probably die pretty darn quickly. You can mitigate that issue to a large degree by dropping a bunch of drones in with them, of course. If you've got the marker support for them, they can pop off overcharged shots at will, so keeping them alive for an extra turn is obviously a good idea.
On that note, I think Crisis Suits are now in a weird position where they could potentially become broken in FSE with minor buffs. 9 suits plus gun drones and a Commander for C&CN dropping in costs a good 1100 points, but it's going to essentially clear the entire 18" bubble around those units. With full buffs up - and if you're running this unit, there's no excuse not to have it fully buffed - you're averaging just over 39 wounds against freaking Plagueburst Crawlers and more like 70 wounds against a standard T7/3+ platform. That's a ridiculous amount of firepower for a single unit to push, regardless of cost. To be clear, that does not include the Gun Drones. You'd have to be really crafty with Stealth Suits to get your drop positioning right and prevent getting screened out, but man, you can basically delete an army in a turn as it is.
With the points reduction they'd need to be useful in other septs - maybe 10 pts or so? - you're shaving a big number off the Crisis Bomb mega unit and potentially allowing another big suit in for support. Maybe I'm being alarmist, and that one turn of laying waste to everything in your path is all you'll get out of that unit plus or minus some decent output the following turn, assuming you brought a bunch of drones. In that case, your massive expenditure on that unit is just an all-or-nothing gambit rather than an auto-win button. If the units has more staying power than it seems, it'll just steamroll everything, and having an extra Ghostkeel or unit of Stealth Suits in the mix to further hem your opponent in could make matters much worse.
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
For shooting MEQs, yes, CIB suits aren't worth it.
For shooting things that are actually a threat, like flying hive tyrants, they kind of are. A squad of 3 has a decent chance of dropping a flyrant in a round of shooting. They do cost more than it does, but that still puts you in a good position against a hard-to-beat enemy army.
The good thing about CIBs is that they work against anything. A fusion blaster loses half of its effectiveness if firing at a target with a 4++ save - like those flyrants - while a CIB loses none. You even have the weight of fire to contribute to mowing down hordes. That's not what you want to be doing, but when that's what's required the unit can throw out 27 shots, which is something.
So for commanders I now think CIBs are a better choice than fusion, in most situations. Fusion blasters do slightly more damage against normal tanks without invulnerables, and you can take a penalty to hit without worrying about overheating, but for general purpose work the CIB is way more flexible.
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
I've never been a fan of QFB on commanders. CIB is just a hands down better option - you trade anti armor power for power vs everything. Since coldstars cant take CIB though - it puts you in a tough spot.
Coldstars can take high output burst - which is basically a double burst cannon. So I just run a HoBC, BC, Supernova launcher, ATS and use him to clear high armor save infantry. He's very cheap too.
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
For shooting MEQs, yes, CIB suits aren't worth it.
For shooting things that are actually a threat, like flying hive tyrants, they kind of are. A squad of 3 has a decent chance of dropping a flyrant in a round of shooting. They do cost more than it does, but that still puts you in a good position against a hard-to-beat enemy army.
The good thing about CIBs is that they work against anything. A fusion blaster loses half of its effectiveness if firing at a target with a 4++ save - like those flyrants - while a CIB loses none. You even have the weight of fire to contribute to mowing down hordes. That's not what you want to be doing, but when that's what's required the unit can throw out 27 shots, which is something.
So for commanders I now think CIBs are a better choice than fusion, in most situations. Fusion blasters do slightly more damage against normal tanks without invulnerables, and you can take a penalty to hit without worrying about overheating, but for general purpose work the CIB is way more flexible.
You are about 100 points of a storm surge with those suits. A storm surge with anchors deployed and velocity tracker ats - has a good chance to kill 2 hive tyrants in a single turn.
Lemondish wrote: I certainly hope that crisis bomb would kill those targets considering the marines are a third the cost.
Bringing us back to the original point that all this is meaningless until crisis suits get a large points drop. They're just too overcosted to be worth taking.
They need a base point drop and a min unit of 1. Then they would be useable.
To be honest I think crisis suits need a real overhaul. 3 expensive guns on a 3-wound platform is just really problematic, because they are such glass cannons. Commanders actually give you more wounds per point than normal crisis suits, and also hit better.
I think they should have a mininum unit size of 1, a maximum of two guns each with the third slot for a support system, and that the costs both of the bodies and the guns need looking at. In other books you see the cost of things like thunder hammers go up for characters, with more attacks and better WS. The same should apply to crisis suit weapons. It applies to support systems but not guns, and that's wrong.
I'm going to have to try out a stormsurge. This is good, because I've got one half built.
On a sillier note, you can take a target lock for a stormsurge, and it costs you 12 points. Given that it already suffers no penalties for moving and shooting, that seems a lot for the ability to fire two burst cannons, AFPs or flamers (lol) while advancing, without a penalty to hit.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah the points costs and power of crisis suits and their weapons is all over the place.
Mostly they are just way over-costed for what they deliver. The price of missile pods in particular is just stupid, but I agree that burst cannons are too pricey too.
Plasma is odd because they kind of aren’t terrible - they are just annoying. How come a tau plasma rifle is so much worse than an imperial one - even when not overcharging? 225 for 18 s6 ap -3 shots isn’t terrible, but it’s nowhere near what scions will do.
But CIBs are undoubtedly awesome. I think the main problem here is that nobody has CIBs to stick on their suits. I’ve managed to scrape together four of them to stick on an XV85 commander, but there’s no way I’ll get 9 for a crisis team. I’ve got plans to scratch build someguns somehow, but haven’t made a start on doing them.
I just use counts as. I just pretend my Earth Caste engineers have channeled their inner Ork and put all manner of guns on my Crisis suits that each miraculously do exactly the same (in this case, all CIB). I'm all for supporting GW but my supportiveness ends when I have to shell out extra money for separate bitz (and those aren't cheap either. If you want to make a WYSIWYG Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon using only GW bitz and not kitbashing something together from your own spare Assault Cannons you'll have to shell out an extra 16.50 pounds just for a Forgeworld Twin Assault Cannon bit(!)) or even entire extra boxes of models just so I can make a unit with a specific codex-legal loadout.
BaconCatBug wrote: Is there any other viable loadout for a Coldstar other than QFB? I have two and was going to take a 3rd Coldstar but I think having all 3 as QFB is a waste.
HOBC, BC, Supernova Launcher, ATS. HOBC and BC are good against MEQ and the Supernova is an absolute terror against anything with 2 wounds and no good invul save. An even deadlier loadout is 3 CIB + Supernova or 2 CIB + Supernova + ATS but you can only do that on an Enforcer or Crisis Commander.
So I may have to dust off the stealth suits. And yeah, lots of path finders...I've got a gack ton of those
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... And, now that I'm playing primarily T'au, this seems like the preferable tactic.
