Knights are no different than they were. A Crusader is still a strong unit and now we can repair it or bump it's shield to 4++. Not sure why it would be out of favor any more than before.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Knights are no different than they were. A Crusader is still a strong unit and now we can repair it or bump it's shield to 4++. Not sure why it would be out of favor any more than before.
I think the 4++ is irrelevant as we are CP starved as is. Besides, what does a Crusader do, that AdMech can't with the new stratagems/FW?
It has been proven that Knights not in Super Heavy Detachment lists are out of the meta. The die too fast and don't do enough. Was there a single solo Knight in any top 50 list of NOVA?
I feel so bad about Knights right now(not because they're bad. Because they seem too simple and not flexible). that I don't even want to bother. Maybe a Mars Batallion? I really have no clue.
Do we know of anyone currently trying to port the CreateYourOwnMagos rules from the Taghmata book?
I know there's a few chaps doing a Legions Astartes port to 8th, but that's just the Marines as far as I'm concerned.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Knights are no different than they were. A Crusader is still a strong unit and now we can repair it or bump it's shield to 4++. Not sure why it would be out of favor any more than before.
I think the 4++ is irrelevant as we are CP starved as is. Besides, what does a Crusader do, that AdMech can't with the new stratagems/FW?
It has been proven that Knights not in Super Heavy Detachment lists are out of the meta. The die too fast and don't do enough. Was there a single solo Knight in any top 50 list of NOVA?
Nova isn't exactly the best barometer of competitive gaming. Crusaders are not bad and with the amount of armor we put on the table, we saturate the opponent in high toughness, high wound models. So it likely can work, perhaps not in the WAAC Imperial Soup meta, but for local events probably just fine.
As for the lists, the lack of Neutronagers is shocking. They don't look too far off from my brainstorm lists - I think the good stuff is congealing into strategies now that we had some time to digest the new stuff.
I am still waiting before I start cracking open new kits or buying stuff, because that FAQ drop might shake us up, too. Curious to see if they wisely cut Kataphrons and Ruststalkers down in points. I love the idea of bringing the former to give me variety beyond Robots (and they are gorgeous models) and the latter for the Stygies Infiltration strategem, because they have some solid killing potential and that extra 2W each. Probably won't ever be cheap enough to be better than Fulgurites in that role though, sadly.
Well i don't really see any popular Big Tough models that don't have a huge invul save. So high AP for me is next to meaningless. Everything above AP3 feels pointless
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well i don't really see any popular Big Tough models that don't have a huge invul save. So high AP for me is next to meaningless. Everything above AP3 feels pointless
Huh. Whereas I would just use it to bust Razorbacks - a common thing to see across the table and one that needs to be mitigated asap. Being able to one-shot those is pretty nice.
For me here are the ways it goes when shooting Neutron
a) I roll 1 shot
b) I miss
c) I fail to wound
d) Opponent saves with invul
e) roll low damage
It feels really bad. Right now I feel Quantity>>>Quality of shots. Because with Quality you pretty much have to pray to RNG. And you either do nothing most of the time or something big rarely. You have to jump through so many hoops that it feels not worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideasweasel wrote: Just reading your lists now. Do you have that many priest models?
I'll use bloodletters and plaguebears for now. If I see they're broken - I'll buy some
rvd1ofakind wrote: For me here are the ways it goes when shooting Neutron
a) I roll 1 shot
b) I miss
c) I fail to wound
d) Opponent saves with invul
e) roll low damage
It feels really bad. Right now I feel Quantity>>>Quality of shots. Because with Quality you pretty much have to pray to RNG. And you either do nothing most of the time or something big rarely. You have to jump through so many hoops that it feels not worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideasweasel wrote: Just reading your lists now. Do you have that many priest models?
I'll use bloodletters and plaguebears for now. If I see they're broken - I'll buy some
Missing and failing to wound are hard with a Neutronager near Cawl. Yea, d3 shots means you can roll one shot. I do it a lot. But averages and game time have shown me it can swing upwards to. 3 shots doing ~9 damage with no save is a quick way to put a hurt on transports. They are really there for that, because why waste volume on Rhinos and Taurox?
Well, your artillery should be clearing those objectives. But yes, I think it is safe to say that every army now will have at least a Battalion with 3 Rangers to access the 3 CP.
Eh. I'm not going that route currently. Wasting 202pt for 2CP isn't really worth it in my book.i would rather have more substance. Most of my lists have 5 or 6 CP, depending on build, which is enough to do the basics (Wrath, Deep Strikes, Binharic). And I still screen with 3-4 Stygies Dragoons so thie mediocre Skitarii aren't a big deal.
ObSec is great, but I can't see it being a big deal. I usually wind up on a few in deployment, so as long as I blast them off theirs and take a few strays I should be good. This has worked well so far, at least.
I really think that 2 CP is worth it though. And having some 8-point bodies isn't too bad.
Kandela wrote: Do you guys think it will be worth it for one unit of Dakkastelans to skip Datasmith altogether and just use Bhinaric Override to turn into deathball turn 1? I could see it working out great, just have to position them in good spot.
Don't think it always has to be turn 1. The key is to get them into position then rooting them with Crawlers supporting them; Dragoons and Skitarii, of course, should be screening. Not having to wait a turn is huge because it's immediate impact to make back their points, then denying this giant 36" bubble; most deployments see you 9" from the corner at first, so after moving 8", you pretty much can shoot everything in three-quarters your opponent's deployment zone.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I feel so bad about Knights right now(not because they're bad. Because they seem too simple and not flexible). that I don't even want to bother. Maybe a Mars Batallion? I really have no clue.
This. Thing is, we're in an era where a lot of our value-added comes from synergy, and Knights don't synergize. Losing 25% of our points to a Knight hurts when we can squeeze in more synergized shooting. A Knight list will probably be as I listed above. 3 Knights with two Battalions for cheap CP.
I'm gonna have 3000pt mach in two days against Death Guard. I'm reading their codex right now (and believe me or not, half hour more of this and I'll be biggest salt producer in this planet) and wonder how to deal with few things.
So far I'm most afraid of Plagueburst crawler.
BS4+ T8 W12 3+/5++/5+++
12-48" HD6 s8 ap-2 d3 rerol 1 to wound and can fire at targets that are not visible
36" H4 s5 ap-1 d1
9"flamer s user(7) ap-1 D1
all that costs 149pts. 149PTS!!!
i assume my oponen will hide it so i won't be able to school it with onagers. Only 20fulgurites comes to my mind. Any ideas how to deal with those monsters?
Spera wrote: I'm gonna have 3000pt mach in two days against Death Guard. I'm reading their codex right now (and believe me or not, half hour more of this and I'll be biggest salt producer in this planet) and wonder how to deal with few things.
So far I'm most afraid of Plagueburst crawler.
BS4+ T8 W12 3+/5++/5+++
12-48" HD6 s8 ap-2 d3 rerol 1 to wound and can fire at targets that are not visible
36" H4 s5 ap-1 d1
9"flamer s user(7) ap-1 D1
all that costs 149pts. 149PTS!!!
i assume my oponen will hide it so i won't be able to school it with onagers. Only 20fulgurites comes to my mind. Any ideas how to deal with those monsters?
What's your overall game plan, stand and shoot him down? If it hides, then it is a somewhat expensive Earthshaker Platform or Basilisk, ignore it and kill the rest of his army? If it is in the open shoot it with Onagers. If it tries to get close chop it with a Knight's Chainblade?
Yeah I currently have a militarum tempestus start collecting I build as
Tempestus Scions, plasma pistol, 2x plasma gun
and Tempesus Command 4x Plasma Gun
and the Prime with rod
And I am running the Taurox Prime as a dakka platform with the heavy 20 gatling, 2 hot shot lasers, and the stubber
I can see how adding an assassin or two and the earthshaker are good adds.
Earthshaker is like a non mobile basilisk?
The rest of my collection is 2 Admech start collecting boxes, 2 kastelans, cawl, and 5 fulgurites currently.
Wulfey wrote: I think if you bring dragoons, you really want to be bringing them in fat stacks. Singles means you don't get the most out of that amazing +2 to hit in combat strategem. A fat stack of dragoons maximizes their effectiveness in combat. Nothing gets more from that skitari strategem than dragoons. With the strategem, each dragoon averages 5.5 hits off of 3 swings.
That stratagem only works in the shooting phase. =\
takonite wrote: Is that youtube guy what counts as a warhammer 40k reviewer?
It looked like his first time opening the book was on camera, seemed to gloss over most things and just whined a lot,
How can I sign up to sound uninformed and get free stuff too?
He doesn't usually do reviews. It was probably a condition for getting the codex in advance. He does good battle reports though.
There is a second +1/+2 to hit strategem for skitarii in the fight phase, right beneath the other one. It works for dragoons in combat just like 7th edition melee doctrina.
man between ryza's re roll wounds thing, the ap -1 on dragoons and the bonus to hit in melee, dragoons almost seem worth taking now. not to mention all the extra bonuses we got in close combat. too bad there's not a mortal wound strategem for CC.
gendoikari87 wrote: man between ryza's re roll wounds thing, the ap -1 on dragoons and the bonus to hit in melee, dragoons almost seem worth taking now. not to mention all the extra bonuses we got in close combat. too bad there's not a mortal wound strategem for CC.
I am hoping that Stygies gets the same deployment Strategem that the Raven Guard have. Dropping a pair of Dragoons in the enemy's face would be mean as hell.
gendoikari87 wrote: man between ryza's re roll wounds thing, the ap -1 on dragoons and the bonus to hit in melee, dragoons almost seem worth taking now. not to mention all the extra bonuses we got in close combat. too bad there's not a mortal wound strategem for CC.
I am hoping that Stygies gets the same deployment Strategem that the Raven Guard have. Dropping a pair of Dragoons in the enemy's face would be mean as hell.
They aren't worth it. Not that scary.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gendoikari87 wrote: man between ryza's re roll wounds thing, the ap -1 on dragoons and the bonus to hit in melee, dragoons almost seem worth taking now. not to mention all the extra bonuses we got in close combat. too bad there's not a mortal wound strategem for CC.
They were always worth taking. Now they are just significantly better.
Probably true, I hope it might allow me to get my Ruststalkers where they need to be though. Too bad there isn't something that allows Dragoons to advance and charge in the same turn.
They were always worth taking. Now they are just significantly better.
They're still 70 points for three attacks in close combat only with no shooting ability. you can disagree all you want but for 70 points i expect a lot more. A LOT more. I don't care if they were T10 and a 1000 wounds. the damage output does not justify the price for me. YMMV.
They were always worth taking. Now they are just significantly better.
They're still 70 points for three attacks in close combat only with no shooting ability. you can disagree all you want but for 70 points i expect a lot more. A LOT more. I don't care if they were T10 and a 1000 wounds. the damage output does not justify the price for me. YMMV.
They aren't there to do damage. That is like expecting our Datasmith or Enginseers to do damage. That is not their role. You still seem to miss the point, despite having their use explained in detail.
And no that they are just better thanks to Stygies and the AP buff, they are more versatile and durable than ever. S6 AP -1 with three attacks with exploding 6's that is almost untouchable in shooting? Now that is a screening unit! Shifting them will take a lot of effort - pretty much exclusively close combat. That is fantastic.
Random musing:
Someone did mention using a Skitarii line in front to screen the Dragoons and I am thinking about testing that if only to make the Dragoons even more annoying. This prevents stuff from dropping within 9" and blasting out Dragoons and adds another layer to protect our vital artillery. I just worry about spending so much on screen units. Also hoping that the FAQ makes Blandguard 8ppm. 150pt to add more layers to our defense and bump in CP, after mulling it over, may well be worth it. Since we are taking Stygies anyhow.
Anyone else see that Breeachers got an extra attack and a cost reduction!?
I have 9 of the bastards, and I can finally use them to punch stuff! Reroll 1s to hit and give them Heavy Ark Rifles, I fully intend to teleport these mooks near the enemy and teleport my TPD along with them for a hard hitting (though super expensive) mini tank colum. I'll probably support them with 10 or 15 Infiltrators as well.
Spera wrote: I'm gonna have 3000pt mach in two days against Death Guard. I'm reading their codex right now (and believe me or not, half hour more of this and I'll be biggest salt producer in this planet) and wonder how to deal with few things.
So far I'm most afraid of Plagueburst crawler.
BS4+ T8 W12 3+/5++/5+++
12-48" HD6 s8 ap-2 d3 rerol 1 to wound and can fire at targets that are not visible
36" H4 s5 ap-1 d1
9"flamer s user(7) ap-1 D1
all that costs 149pts. 149PTS!!!
i assume my oponen will hide it so i won't be able to school it with onagers. Only 20fulgurites comes to my mind. Any ideas how to deal with those monsters?
What do you have to be salty about? You have a 48" Heavy D3 with S10 AP-4 D6Min3 that can move 8" and shoot without penalty. With Shroudpsalm you also get +1 save. Mars gives you rerolls in any situation, and Stygies gives you -1 to hit. You also heal D3+1 wounds per turn. Your friend is probably sitting in his room muttering "all that costs 143 points" under his breath.
But if you want my advice, if he's hiding behind cover, deep strike 1x3 Stygies Ballistarii or 1x2 Dragoons behind him.
There is a second +1/+2 to hit strategem for skitarii in the fight phase, right beneath the other one. It works for dragoons in combat just like 7th edition melee doctrina.
Yes! I saw that this morning. It can be good for finishing something off.
And no that they are just better thanks to Stygies and the AP buff, they are more versatile and durable than ever. S6 AP -1 with three attacks with exploding 6's that is almost untouchable in shooting? Now that is a screening unit! Shifting them will take a lot of effort - pretty much exclusively close combat. That is fantastic.
Random musing:
Someone did mention using a Skitarii line in front to screen the Dragoons and I am thinking about testing that if only to make the Dragoons even more annoying. This prevents stuff from dropping within 9" and blasting out Dragoons and adds another layer to protect our vital artillery. I just worry about spending so much on screen units. Also hoping that the FAQ makes Blandguard 8ppm. 150pt to add more layers to our defense and bump in CP, after mulling it over, may well be worth it. Since we are taking Stygies anyhow.
Actually, Taser Lances are S8. Ballistarii are also much better now with just the -1 to hit. Alas, Jezzails still suck; if only it were an S6 weapon, AP-1 weapon.
I'm not convinced to put Skitarii in front. Yes, it does stop a shooting alpha strike, but the further out a unit is, the more area it needs to cover, especially if it wants to intercept a transport. After all, what is more important? Giving your Dragoon -2 to hit on turn 1 or being able to force a Rhinox to disembark 27" away from your Crawlers and Kastelans and fall back?
Tsol wrote: Anyone else see that Breeachers got an extra attack and a cost reduction!?
I have 9 of the bastards, and I can finally use them to punch stuff! Reroll 1s to hit and give them Heavy Ark Rifles, I fully intend to teleport these mooks near the enemy and teleport my TPD along with them for a hard hitting (though super expensive) mini tank colum. I'll probably support them with 10 or 15 Infiltrators as well.
Yes, but they're still bad. Heavy Arc Rifles should be S7 at the least. S6 is insufficient to punch through many transports. Plasma Destroyers are much stronger.
They were always worth taking. Now they are just significantly better.
They're still 70 points for three attacks in close combat only with no shooting ability. you can disagree all you want but for 70 points i expect a lot more. A LOT more. I don't care if they were T10 and a 1000 wounds. the damage output does not justify the price for me. YMMV.
They aren't there to do damage. That is like expecting our Datasmith or Enginseers to do damage. That is not their role. You still seem to miss the point, despite having their use explained in detail.
And no that they are just better thanks to Stygies and the AP buff, they are more versatile and durable than ever. S6 AP -1 with three attacks with exploding 6's that is almost untouchable in shooting? Now that is a screening unit! Shifting them will take a lot of effort - pretty much exclusively close combat. That is fantastic.
Random musing:
Someone did mention using a Skitarii line in front to screen the Dragoons and I am thinking about testing that if only to make the Dragoons even more annoying. This prevents stuff from dropping within 9" and blasting out Dragoons and adds another layer to protect our vital artillery. I just worry about spending so much on screen units. Also hoping that the FAQ makes Blandguard 8ppm. 150pt to add more layers to our defense and bump in CP, after mulling it over, may well be worth it. Since we are taking Stygies anyhow.
No no. i fully understand the point. i think the point is stupid. but that's my opinion. you are entitled to yours. I'm going to ask more of 70 point models than 3 attacks per turn REGARDLESS of what their role is. if it isn't doing damage, it's dead weight. at best it's a road block. and we have bunkers that can fill that role.
That is like expecting our Datasmith or Enginseers to do damage.
yes yes i do. Datasmiths at least have a power fist. but the damage output on them does not warrant taking them any more, it barely did when we didn't have the strategem to switch protocols. Primarily i used them to get into CC if my robots were targetted and they usually made up their points then. now however I'll probably have the tech priest fill that role. and even then at least the datasmiths upped the damage output on kastelans. Dragoons do not do that, not as well as other CC units that can also deal damage.
but we've had this discussion. you are entitled to your opinion and i mine. I will not under any circumstances use a unit that does nothing but set up a barrier. that's wasted points.
That is like expecting our Datasmith or Enginseers to do damage.
yes yes i do. Datasmiths at least have a power fist. but the damage output on them does not warrant taking them any more, it barely did when we didn't have the strategem to switch protocols. Primarily i used them to get into CC if my robots were targetted and they usually made up their points then. now however I'll probably have the tech priest fill that role.
Uhhh... you are aware that in terms of math, healing a wound on a high durability unit is just as important as dealing one to a unit of comparable durability? And AdMech has some of the most durable vehicles in the game.
That is like expecting our Datasmith or Enginseers to do damage.
yes yes i do. Datasmiths at least have a power fist. but the damage output on them does not warrant taking them any more, it barely did when we didn't have the strategem to switch protocols. Primarily i used them to get into CC if my robots were targetted and they usually made up their points then. now however I'll probably have the tech priest fill that role.
Uhhh... you are aware that in terms of math, healing a wound on a high durability unit is just as important as dealing one to a unit of comparable durability? And AdMech has some of the most durable vehicles in the game.
Yes they can do both. they are capable of that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also HEALING a wound is NOT as important as dealing one. if both armies just heal everything the game never ends. it ends via something dying. This is why in Magic the gathering life GAIN is not costed as high as dealing damage. the game ends when someone dies. there is no upper cap on life points. the same is true here. you win by removing the enemy from the table or objectives.
That is like expecting our Datasmith or Enginseers to do damage.
yes yes i do. Datasmiths at least have a power fist. but the damage output on them does not warrant taking them any more, it barely did when we didn't have the strategem to switch protocols. Primarily i used them to get into CC if my robots were targetted and they usually made up their points then. now however I'll probably have the tech priest fill that role.
Uhhh... you are aware that in terms of math, healing a wound on a high durability unit is just as important as dealing one to a unit of comparable durability? And AdMech has some of the most durable vehicles in the game.
Yes they can do both. they are capable of that.
And Dragoons aren't capable of killing something with 3x S8 AP-1 2D attacks? They just got a huge buff. They're dealing 50% more wounds to Razorbacks (T7 3+) than before. A unit of 4 can actually kill one within two turns now...
also HEALING a wound is NOT as important as dealing one. if both armies just heal everything the game never ends. it ends via something dying. This is why in Magic the gathering life GAIN is not costed as high as dealing damage. the game ends when someone dies. there is no upper cap on life points. the same is true here. you win by removing the enemy from the table or objectives.
TCGs are different. Healing is priced lower because it takes into account the opportunity cost; healing does not alter the board state like dealing damage to a creature will. Warhammer 40k is a complete cost game. Everything is paid BEFORE you start the game.
but we've had this discussion. you are entitled to your opinion and i mine. I will not under any circumstances use a unit that does nothing but set up a barrier. that's wasted points.
Frankly, this is a foolish position to take. They are meant to be a roadblock, that is their exact job. Damage output is not vital, even though they have respectable output, honestly. I have had them wipe small units many times, because the 2 dmg and ease of wounding most infantry is solid and the -1 AP just makes it better. What do you expect for 70pt, honestly? T6 6W with good mobility and tough to hit with a big base to deny areas or grab objectives.
I just can't wrap my mind around what you seem to expect from a unit whose goal is to be mobile, tough to shift, and able to grab objectives. Dragoons are just tailor-made for this task and excel at it. Cheaply, no less, because 68pt is not a lot.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
like i said if it works for you cool. If not cool. What i'm doing works for me. you're entitled to your opinion and I mine.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
like i said if it works for you cool. If not cool. What i'm doing works for me. you're entitled to your opinion and I mine.
also likewise.
The issue is that my stance isn't so much an opinion as an evaluation based on use. Sure, it is still anecdotal, but it isn't unfounded because I have the games in to back up the claim. And not against low-tier junk like Ravenwing, but against a lot of nasty match-ups for us, like Orks and Imperial Guard.
So when folks come here and see you say "Naw, they suck", they might dismiss them out-of-hand if they don't see my thoughts on them. Hence me combating your claim every time, because they are a lynchpin screening unit that folks definitely shouldn't overlook. Especially now with Stygies -1 to-hit and the AP -1 additions.
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
We are highly, highly favored in the Ravenwing and Deathguard matchups; Icarus Crawlers absolutely shred the former, and we have better shooting and durability than the latter. The real armies that threaten us are Chaos, Orks, and Guard, maybe Ynnari/Harlequins and Genestealers. Pretty much any assault army. >_>
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
We are highly, highly favored in the Ravenwing and Deathguard matchups; Icarus Crawlers absolutely shred the former, and we have better shooting and durability than the latter. The real armies that threaten us are Chaos, Orks, and Guard, maybe Ynnari/Harlequins and Genestealers. Pretty much any assault army. >_>
That is my local metagame. Plus assaulty Wolves and some Dark Eldar spamming Lances which is actually an awful matchup for us (pre-Codex at least). For some reason my area is highly competitive.
That is my local metagame. Plus assaulty Wolves and some Dark Eldar spamming Lances which is actually an awful matchup for us (pre-Codex at least). For some reason my area is highly competitive.
Wolves are surprisingly not too bad. And I think we're favored slightly in the Dark Eldar matchup due to Icarus Crawlers (Venoms and Raiders have tissue paper for armor), but then again, I have always advocated doing 1:1 Neutron:Icarus.
rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW, 6 Dragoons with stratagem do similar per point damage to Duoble DakKastelans with Cawl :/
Juuuuuuuuuuuust saying
Oh when you have the omniscient mask they do a lot better than Kastelans
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, an AdMech player won a GT:
Cawl
5 dakkastelans 4 Neutron Onagers
40+ conscripts
a ton of plasma scions
Are we talking 6 Kastelans? Because while I get that +2 to hit stratagem is solid if you need to kill something, since Taser explodes on a 4+, I am not so sure it deals quite that much damage. Furthermore, I am not convinced you want that many Dragoons stacked together due to piling-in issues.
Good to know all the theory crafting worked out for someone. Though I am surprised it was 4 Neutron and not 2 Neutron and 2 Icarus. Might be hard to table some horde armies with only 5 Kastelans and infantry; plasma is already fine for vehicles.
LOL I was just making a scions + cawl list. Alright, lets up the cheese. Alright, this what I think he did. This is assuming 5 point cognis stubbers based on the leaks. Only 7CP, so that is just enough for 3 turns of Mars Wrath. I am actually not convinced on the goodness of the neutron onager because I keep rolling 1 shot a turn.
rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW, 6 Dragoons with stratagem do similar per point damage to Duoble DakKastelans with Cawl :/
Juuuuuuuuuuuust saying
Oh when you have the omniscient mask they do a lot better than Kastelans
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, an AdMech player won a GT:
Cawl
5 dakkastelans 4 Neutron Onagers
40+ conscripts
a ton of plasma scions
Are we talking 6 Kastelans? Because while I get that +2 to hit stratagem is solid if you need to kill something, since Taser explodes on a 4+, I am not so sure it deals quite that much damage. Furthermore, I am not convinced you want that many Dragoons stacked together due to piling-in issues.
Good to know all the theory crafting worked out for someone. Though I am surprised it was 4 Neutron and not 2 Neutron and 2 Icarus. Might be hard to table some horde armies with only 5 Kastelans and infantry; plasma is already fine for vehicles.
There's 0 point in comparing 6 dragoons to 6 DakKastelans. I'm comparing the points per damage dealt. Ant 6 stratagem dragoons are 0.09, and Protector Cawl DakKastelans are 0.10 Which is not that big of a difference.
Also, there are no piling in issues as it's really easy to be within 1'' of a dragoon, that is within 1'' of the enemy due to the giant base.
There's 0 point in comparing 6 dragoons to 6 DakKastelans. I'm comparing the points per damage dealt. Ant 6 stratagem dragoons are 0.09, and Protector Cawl DakKastelans are 0.10 Which is not that big of a difference.
Also, there are no piling in issues as it's really easy to be within 1'' of a dragoon, that is within 1'' of the enemy due to the giant base.
I see. That's interesting.
There are potential piling in issues once you pass 2 Dragoons. You pretty much have to pile in so that all of the Dragoons are within 1" of the lead Dragoon, but 3" doesn't let you clear a Dragoon's length. This results in problems when you are charge from an "in line" formation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here, let me explain with a diagram:
The ideal position for Dragoons to maximize their frontal coverage is "in line." That is, arranging all of the models so that they are 2" apart and in a straight line. You can stagger the middle Dragoon for more depth, of course, but this will not affect the point I am trying to make.
The first arrows represent a 7" move; this is the more liberal case, with the front Dragoon moving 6" and the rearmost Dragoon moving the full 7". These lines are to scale. The middle Dragoon needs to move diagonally to get out of the rear Dragoon's way.
The second arrows represent the 3" pile-in. Note that the rear Dragoon also has to pile-in within 2" of the middle Dragoon; this is what determined the angle of the previous move.
The crux of the matter is this: Net of the entire unit's charge, the rearmost Dragoon needs to move 3" + 105mm to get close enough to the lead Dragoon to be able to attack. He can only move 4", leaving 105mm -1" of dead space.
Therefore, running three Dragoons creates a tradeoff:
1) Reduce coverage and adopt an "arrowhead" formation. (In terms of coverage, the arrowhead is little different than just having two Dragoons in line.)
2) Maximize coverage and risk being outmaneuevered; any unit that "crosses the T" (in naval parlance) will essentially freeze one Dragoon out of the charge.
Well if you run multiple Dragoons, you run them not in a line to avoid that. Ofc it is more restricting than running them separatelly but you just have to play differently
PS: 5 hours until I see if the Corps priests are all they're cracked up to be in Mathammer
Spera wrote: I'm gonna have 3000pt mach in two days against Death Guard. I'm reading their codex right now (and believe me or not, half hour more of this and I'll be biggest salt producer in this planet) and wonder how to deal with few things.
So far I'm most afraid of Plagueburst crawler.
BS4+ T8 W12 3+/5++/5+++
12-48" HD6 s8 ap-2 d3 rerol 1 to wound and can fire at targets that are not visible
36" H4 s5 ap-1 d1
9"flamer s user(7) ap-1 D1
all that costs 149pts. 149PTS!!!
i assume my oponen will hide it so i won't be able to school it with onagers. Only 20fulgurites comes to my mind. Any ideas how to deal with those monsters?
What's your overall game plan, stand and shoot him down? If it hides, then it is a somewhat expensive Earthshaker Platform or Basilisk, ignore it and kill the rest of his army? If it is in the open shoot it with Onagers. If it tries to get close chop it with a Knight's Chainblade?
We gonna test armmies, so I'm gonna bring trusted 6 kastelan, 2 neutronagesr 1 icarus and cawl with two sniper ranger squads. Other than that ill try stuff from other FW to lock him in midfield. Wondering between Graia and Stygies, lucius for sure. I was bit afraid of Plagueburst crawler due to it's sturdiness. Its hard to even cripple it. Game will be probably long so they may add up.
Spera wrote: I'm gonna have 3000pt mach in two days against Death Guard. I'm reading their codex right now (and believe me or not, half hour more of this and I'll be biggest salt producer in this planet) and wonder how to deal with few things.
So far I'm most afraid of Plagueburst crawler.
BS4+ T8 W12 3+/5++/5+++
12-48" HD6 s8 ap-2 d3 rerol 1 to wound and can fire at targets that are not visible
36" H4 s5 ap-1 d1
9"flamer s user(7) ap-1 D1
all that costs 149pts. 149PTS!!!
i assume my oponen will hide it so i won't be able to school it with onagers. Only 20fulgurites comes to my mind. Any ideas how to deal with those monsters?
What do you have to be salty about? You have a 48" Heavy D3 with S10 AP-4 D6Min3 that can move 8" and shoot without penalty. With Shroudpsalm you also get +1 save. Mars gives you rerolls in any situation, and Stygies gives you -1 to hit. You also heal D3+1 wounds per turn. Your friend is probably sitting in his room muttering "all that costs 143 points" under his breath.
But if you want my advice, if he's hiding behind cover, deep strike 1x3 Stygies Ballistarii or 1x2 Dragoons behind him.
I'm salty because it's really easy to see how much more was put into dg codex. If i was able to chose between hawing this codex now, or have to wait for it 2-3 more months but to get it more polished and refined, I would gladly do so. On first sight DG doesn't have to make suboptimal decisions in list building. I hope i'm bias and this is only case of grass being greener on the other side of the fence.
Could someone explain how best to use the Dragoons as a screen? What makes them superior to Skitarii for the purpose?
I've just ordered a pair so some advice on how to arm them and how to run them after they've done their job as first turn screen would be good too, but I'm most interested in learning how to use them to counter deepstriking.
The ideal explanation might be something that could be copied into the OP as a bit of tactical advice. Thanks!
you could always deep strike into their flanks with something heavy hitting. i'd say take a guard detatchment and deep strike some scions into it's side. or maybe lucious or stygies and throw a few balistarii into it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
monarda wrote: Could someone explain how best to use the Dragoons as a screen? What makes them superior to Skitarii for the purpose?
I've just ordered a pair so some advice on how to arm them and how to run them after they've done their job as first turn screen would be good too, but I'm most interested in learning how to use them to counter deepstriking.
The ideal explanation might be something that could be copied into the OP as a bit of tactical advice. Thanks!
-1 to hit and T6 that's all it is. they counter deep strike by simply being a model on the board so won't be as good as skitarii for that purpose. normally armed with taser goads. don' think i've ever hear or seen anyone take the jezzail. MNOP and the rest can tell you more as they actually see use in them. I'm getting a few but i'm building them as autocannon ballistari.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
like i said if it works for you cool. If not cool. What i'm doing works for me. you're entitled to your opinion and I mine.
also likewise.
The issue is that my stance isn't so much an opinion as an evaluation based on use. Sure, it is still anecdotal, but it isn't unfounded because I have the games in to back up the claim. And not against low-tier junk like Ravenwing, but against a lot of nasty match-ups for us, like Orks and Imperial Guard.
So when folks come here and see you say "Naw, they suck", they might dismiss them out-of-hand if they don't see my thoughts on them. Hence me combating your claim every time, because they are a lynchpin screening unit that folks definitely shouldn't overlook. Especially now with Stygies -1 to-hit and the AP -1 additions.
know what, maybe that's a good thing. Because maybe they'll try something else that'll be better. and if me saying they suck is such a bad thing make a damn good case for them. and just them being a roadblock isn't going to be good enough of an argument for some people. because that argument can be superceded by the use of bunkers. also infantry are much better at deepstrike denial. not every mechanicus player also wants or needs to go pure mechanicus so a guard detatchment isn't out of the question for them. and i think theres a case that guard detatchments are the damn best option to take for screening.
Mostly because guard hoards are winning tournaments right now and we could simply replace the heavy support options they have with our robots and neutronagers. like wulfey's list up there that's an interesting list. it's not just the same old gak that OBVIOUSLY isn't working on the tournament circuit.
so again. you do you boo. i'll do me. if what you do works for you. cool. if not, IDGAF. i'll do what works for me and adapt if it ever stops working.
monarda wrote: Could someone explain how best to use the Dragoons as a screen? What makes them superior to Skitarii for the purpose?
I've just ordered a pair so some advice on how to arm them and how to run them after they've done their job as first turn screen would be good too, but I'm most interested in learning how to use them to counter deepstriking.
The ideal explanation might be something that could be copied into the OP as a bit of tactical advice. Thanks!
Despite what gendoikari87 says - and what he says is wrong and uninformed - Dragoons are a solid screening unit that does double-duty as an objective grabber.
Right now, with what we have, Stygies Dragoons are a solid go-to for interrupting the opponent's gameplan to deep strike and get into assault with us, which really is our worst-case scenario.
The perks (for Stygies) include:
-2 To-Hit
Toughness 6
6 Wounds
10" Movement
4+ Save (3+ with Shroudpsalm)
S8 AP -1 3A weapon that does 3 hits on 6's
Can hilariously explode and cause mortal wounds
All of this combines to make a durable unit that requires an opponent be within 12" to hurt with shooting (and even then, they are at a -1 to-hit). More likely, they will need to get into combat with something dedicated to combat with lots of high strength weapons (6+) and good AP - alternatively, volume can work though it is tough with hordes to get in as many attacks because you are one model vs a string of models (despite the large base size).
You want to use them as a screen by putting them out in front of your forces and sideways to stretch them out to deny large swathes of the area to deep strikes. Make big no-go areas and force them to go around your Dragoons. If they assault your Dragoons, just leave combat and shoot them with your army next turn. Once their deep strike threat is not an issue and you aren't expecting CC waves to come at you, they can go objective taking or weakling hunting. Surprisingly, they can dish out some hurt to stuff with low toughness and/or low saves. Three attacks isn't much, but it will push Gretchin off the board and open up an objective that you couldn't reach before.
The Skitarii are less flexible, less deadly, and less durable. While Stygies has made them somewhat better, as the -1 to-hit is just always good, they still have these drawbacks:
Toughness 3
1 Wound
Mediocre shooting
Zero CC ability
Low Leadership
This means that they can be hurt more easily in shooting, will suffer for it due to leadership, don't really shoot that well and can't fight worth a crap either. They also won't be going across the table and taking a distant quarter or objective. The whole idea of Blandguard was to make them an in-faction speedbump. They can do this and for filling out a battalion (until the day Kataphrons get a point drop), they are our best troop option. However, the Dragoons clearly outshine Skitarii for screening, objective taking, durability, and their ability to strike weak camping units.
Hopefully that puts to bed gendoikari87's nonsense claims a bit, as the stats (on top of plenty of anecdotal evidence) should make a pretty solid case. Remember, most of us who use them play more than bottom-tier Ravenwing, so we are speaking in broad, normal metagame terms.
That is my local metagame. Plus assaulty Wolves and some Dark Eldar spamming Lances which is actually an awful matchup for us (pre-Codex at least). For some reason my area is highly competitive.
Wolves are surprisingly not too bad. And I think we're favored slightly in the Dark Eldar matchup due to Icarus Crawlers (Venoms and Raiders have tissue paper for armor), but then again, I have always advocated doing 1:1 Neutron:Icarus.
We outgun Wolves pretty well, since they are usually somewhat elite. The issue is their speed getting into combat with stuff like Thunderwolves presents a clear-and-present threat we must mitigate.
Dark Eldar Lance spam only is an issue because of target saturation and volume of high strength, low AP fire that really chews up our vehicles. Thankfully, it is all reliant on their damage dice, because if their dice go cold, they are doing 1's and 2's, not 5's and 6's. That being said, they up the statistics by having ~15 of them on the table, meaning we will lose Robots and Onagers quickly. It isn't a list you will likely see as it suffers in most metagames, but it was one I saw in mine and noted it as something we should keep an eye out for.
All of this combines to make a durable unit that requires an opponent be within 12" to hurt with shooting
except it doesn't have a gun and is no threat so might as well ignore it entirely. It grabs an objective? whoopty doo basil it's one model the enemy moves a troop squad with objective secured over there or ignores that one entirely and goes and grabs another. worst case scenario for them is they can't do any of the above and then point a couple lascannons over at it and boom, dragoon gone. but given it has no guns theres really no need to do that.
If they assault your Dragoons, just leave combat and shoot them with your army next turn.
or you know use something that's actually effective in combat and let the big guns focus on other thing.
The Skitarii are less flexible, less deadly, and less durable
less durable i'll give you by a hair but less deadly? for the same points you get 9 str 3 shots at 18 inches and 4 str 7 ap -3 shots. ..... what are you smoking?
All of this combines to make a durable unit that requires an opponent be within 12" to hurt with shooting
except it doesn't have a gun and is no threat so might as well ignore it entirely. It grabs an objective? whoopty doo basil it's one model the enemy moves a troop squad with objective secured over there or ignores that one entirely and goes and grabs another. worst case scenario for them is they can't do any of the above and then point a couple lascannons over at it and boom, dragoon gone. but given it has no guns theres really no need to do that.
If they assault your Dragoons, just leave combat and shoot them with your army next turn.
or you know use something that's actually effective in combat and let the big guns focus on other thing.
The Skitarii are less flexible, less deadly, and less durable
less durable i'll give you by a hair but less deadly? for the same points you get 9 str 3 shots at 18 inches and 4 str 7 ap -3 shots. ..... what are you smoking?
It is like you don't actually play the game. Seriously, your comments are so uninformed.
It doesn't need a gun to do its job. At all. We have guns aplenty in our army anyhow.
You realize that you are taking objectives on T4+ after you have wiped out their scoring units, right? Or at least hindered their mobility so our Dragoons can do what they do.
You seem to be forgetting the -2 to-hit. Lascannons are notoriously low in shots, meaning even Space Marines need 5+ to-hit against it, while Guard will need 6's. They then need to hope they roll 6 damage to kill it outright and that is unlikely (provided they don't miraculously roll a 1 to wound). And we do get a 6++, too.
It is effective in combat - you would know if you played. Tying up units often three times their points and keeping those melee units from closing into our gunline is worth 68pt. Especially given the rest of the perks.
No one takes the S7 guns, bud. Blandguard is the go-to, soon to be bare-bones Rangers. They have mediocre guns. If you start adding in extras, you are creating a point sink in a liability unit. T3 1W models with low leadership go bye-bye very fast. Again, you would know this if you played. In all my games, Skitarii only ever lived if my opponent just ignored them outright. Often, those games they did very, very little and they are pretty awful as a screen because they are so easy to shift. If anything, it makes shifting easier because they will wipe them out and then consolidate closer!
Seriously, play some games (against something other than Ravenwing - go play Guard or Chaos or something competitive) and then get back to us. Your "evidence" is not based on playing, while the rest of us have put in the table time to back up the claims. Your opinion has no weight because of this.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Why wouldn't you give it a Phosphor Serpenta? Sure it isn't much, but it is better than nothing.
because it is on a melee unit that can't shoot it in melee and it costs points?
Since when is 6 pts going to break the bank?
Since the Codex hit. I feel that we have even less points to fudge with now than ever, as we are shoehorning in 2-3 detachments and maximizing what is in each. Plus, it really is a mediocre gun anyhow.
Seriously. Compare the 6 pts Serpenta to the 5 pts stubber. What the crap is this? Stubber is more than 3 times better per point than serpenta (AND I gave Serpenta 1,5 AP to simulate the opponent sometimes being in cover)
All of this combines to make a durable unit that requires an opponent be within 12" to hurt with shooting
except it doesn't have a gun and is no threat so might as well ignore it entirely. It grabs an objective? whoopty doo basil it's one model the enemy moves a troop squad with objective secured over there or ignores that one entirely and goes and grabs another. worst case scenario for them is they can't do any of the above and then point a couple lascannons over at it and boom, dragoon gone. but given it has no guns theres really no need to do that.
If they assault your Dragoons, just leave combat and shoot them with your army next turn.
or you know use something that's actually effective in combat and let the big guns focus on other thing.
The Skitarii are less flexible, less deadly, and less durable
less durable i'll give you by a hair but less deadly? for the same points you get 9 str 3 shots at 18 inches and 4 str 7 ap -3 shots. ..... what are you smoking?
It is like you don't actually play the game. Seriously, your comments are so uninformed.
It doesn't need a gun to do its job. At all. We have guns aplenty in our army anyhow.
You realize that you are taking objectives on T4+ after you have wiped out their scoring units, right? Or at least hindered their mobility so our Dragoons can do what they do.
You seem to be forgetting the -2 to-hit. Lascannons are notoriously low in shots, meaning even Space Marines need 5+ to-hit against it, while Guard will need 6's. They then need to hope they roll 6 damage to kill it outright and that is unlikely (provided they don't miraculously roll a 1 to wound). And we do get a 6++, too.
It is effective in combat - you would know if you played. Tying up units often three times their points and keeping those melee units from closing into our gunline is worth 68pt. Especially given the rest of the perks.
No one takes the S7 guns, bud. Blandguard is the go-to, soon to be bare-bones Rangers. They have mediocre guns. If you start adding in extras, you are creating a point sink in a liability unit. T3 1W models with low leadership go bye-bye very fast. Again, you would know this if you played. In all my games, Skitarii only ever lived if my opponent just ignored them outright. Often, those games they did very, very little and they are pretty awful as a screen because they are so easy to shift. If anything, it makes shifting easier because they will wipe them out and then consolidate closer!
Seriously, play some games (against something other than Ravenwing - go play Guard or Chaos or something competitive) and then get back to us. Your "evidence" is not based on playing, while the rest of us have put in the table time to back up the claims. Your opinion has no weight because of this.
1. Ravengaurd and deathgaurd are not my only opponent, yes i play and i play alot. not my fault if what works for me isn't "Codex approved" by you. IDGAF. it works.
2. i'm tired of you talking down to me like i don't know gak when it's clear you don't either
3. your opinion has no value to me what so ever anymore.
4. didn't even read any of this.
5. you're on ignore permanently I gave you a chance, you blew it. have fun. you do you boo. I'll do me, and continue offering advise as I see it. Never going to ask your opinion again, or even give you the time of day. bye
1. Ravengaurd and deathgaurd are not my only opponent
2. i'm tired of you talking down to me like i don't know gak when it's clear you don't either
3. your opinion has no value to me what so ever anymore.
4. didn't even read any of this.
5. your on ignore permanently. have fun. you do you boo.
Yes, clearly I know nothing about the faction. Obviously I never play, nor have I ever. I definitely don't have 2000pt painted and a recent League Championship under my belt or anything. Obviously!
Glad my opinion has no value to you - don't care. I am presenting my position to other players, who will hopefully value my insight derived from my results and experiences on the table. This is directly to combat your ignorant opinions.
You didn't read it, thus you missed a good chance to get a clue. A damn shame you are too stubborn to listen to others.
Now back the issue at hand if you want to win with Mechanicus there is a very easy way. the new codex didn't give us a lot but it gave us some things. more importantly we have the detachment system and IG is top tier right now. it uses wyverns and manticores to blast the enemy and conscripts to shoot and deny terrain. much better than dragoons could ever hope to do and they'll output a lot more damage at long range so they can sit on objectives and be a threat to half the board. So my advice is run a Spearhead of mechanicus and a detachment of guard for screening. might not be as good as pure guard but it takes the best element of the guard and gives you options. I personally run a Grey knight detachment because i like to go in hard for the kill. but that's me.
alternatively you can wait till the forgeworld book comes out because that's bound to have some nice stuff.
gendoikari87 wrote: Now back the issue at hand if you want to win with Mechanicus there is a very easy way. the new codex didn't give us a lot but it gave us some things. more importantly we have the detachment system and IG is top tier right now. it uses wyverns and manticores to blast the enemy and conscripts to shoot and deny terrain. much better than dragoons could ever hope to do and they'll output a lot more damage at long range so they can sit on objectives and be a threat to half the board. So my advice is run a Spearhead of mechanicus and a detachment of guard for screening. might not be as good as pure guard but it takes the best element of the guard and gives you options. I personally run a Grey knight detachment because i like to go in hard for the kill. but that's me.
alternatively you can wait till the forgeworld book comes out because that's bound to have some nice stuff.
Absolutely no option for me. Been playing AdMech competitively for over a year now and I will not put some Astra Militarum in it. The only thing I can see adding is an assassin. I played a lot versus AM and of course Wyvern and Manticores and I dont see a point in adding those to an AdMech army. Only thing to have might be conscripts. But they will get nerfed anyway and I dont see the point in taking them, vanguard and dragoons worked fine up until now. With the codex we got a lot of tools that we needed, esp. when it comes to screening. I do would like to see a Mars/Lucius/Stygis list though
gendoikari87 wrote: Now back the issue at hand if you want to win with Mechanicus there is a very easy way. the new codex didn't give us a lot but it gave us some things. more importantly we have the detachment system and IG is top tier right now. it uses wyverns and manticores to blast the enemy and conscripts to shoot and deny terrain. much better than dragoons could ever hope to do and they'll output a lot more damage at long range so they can sit on objectives and be a threat to half the board. So my advice is run a Spearhead of mechanicus and a detachment of guard for screening. might not be as good as pure guard but it takes the best element of the guard and gives you options. I personally run a Grey knight detachment because i like to go in hard for the kill. but that's me.
alternatively you can wait till the forgeworld book comes out because that's bound to have some nice stuff.
Absolutely no option for me. Been playing AdMech competitively for over a year now and I will not put some Astra Militarum in it. The only thing I can see adding is an assassin. I played a lot versus AM and of course Wyvern and Manticores and I dont see a point in adding those to an AdMech army. Only thing to have might be conscripts. But they will get nerfed anyway and I dont see the point in taking them, vanguard and dragoons worked fine up until now. With the codex we got a lot of tools that we needed, esp. when it comes to screening. I do would like to see a Mars/Lucius/Stygis list though
yeah conscripts are going to get nerfed at some point. I'll eventually get a tech guard mechanized force (using the IG book) to copliment the Admech portion since we aren't getting transports for our techguard. might even use veterans since they're cheap and accurate. and chimeras paint up in admech colors look cool as heck.
Alright, so I got to test out some of the new rules, and I really have to say I think stygies is better for onagers than mars+Cawl. -1 to incoming fire does a lot for their longevity, particularly against armies like guard with their 4+. Cawl does help more as the profile degrades, but between stygies and our new repair boosts from WT+artifact I was able to keep them at least at a 4+ up and usually at a 3+ till they got destroyed.
Kastalens still work far better alongside Cawl, but I'm considering using a unit of destroyers to activate the +1 shooting stratagem instead. It's a little bit more expensive points wise, Cawl vs dominus is 120ish points and the rangers they replace are 40, so that's around 50 extra points being spent, plus the cp as well. But it's also more firepower, getting three heavy grav culverins hitting on a 3+ as well as a couple extra phosphor hits, not to mention the durability boost both units will have.
SilverAlien wrote: Alright, so I got to test out some of the new rules, and I really have to say I think stygies is better for onagers than mars+Cawl. -1 to incoming fire does a lot for their longevity, particularly against armies like guard with their 4+. Cawl does help more as the profile degrades, but between stygies and our new repair boosts from WT+artifact I was able to keep them at least at a 4+ up and usually at a 3+ till they got destroyed.
Kastalens still work far better alongside Cawl, but I'm considering using a unit of destroyers to activate the +1 shooting stratagem instead. It's a little bit more expensive points wise, Cawl vs dominus is 120ish points and the rangers they replace are 40, so that's around 50 extra points being spent, plus the cp as well. But it's also more firepower, getting three heavy grav culverins hitting on a 3+ as well as a couple extra phosphor hits, not to mention the durability boost both units will have.
i'm really curious to see how kataphron destroyers do this edition with the different strategems available to them. +1 to hit is nice but don't know if i'd use it on grav cannons or plasma kataphrons. both seem really good for different functions. been toying with the idea for a while now of kataphrons in bunkers.
Plasma probably would be better for setting up shop near the kastalens, for the extra range, slightly cheaper cost, and the zero chance of self destruct the stratagem grants. Plus I wouldn't mind a little bit of extra anti tank in my list, 2-3 neutron lasers only go so far.
yeah but i think that's why we got the shaft. If i had to guess I think GW's thought process went something along the lines of: "They can ally in Guard, and aren't space marines. Just hurry up and get them out the door so we can put resources into other things. just make sure to buff electro priests so we can sell our stock of that."
Are you guys sure there is going to be an FAQ already? Any idea of rough timescale?
Quick question as I'm returning to 40k after a very long absence. If I buy the digital Admech codex do all of the adjusted rules get posted online to the digital copy or do I still need to print FAQ sheets out?
Have never seen the value of buying the books personally as it seems they go out of fashion faster than those denim jackets with the pretend paint stains on em
*i should add I don't mean to disrespect those that enjoy the books, I just feel they don't offer much value for money for myself
WrentheFaceless wrote: Looking like a Cawl/Kastellen/Crawler spearhead with a Stygies battalion for everything else
Yep. That seems to be the most competitive pre-FAQ build thus far.
So you heard that rumor about a post release FAQ for us too?
Yea, over on the N&R thread or our Codex. Plus, it seems to be pretty standard about a week out for them to drop an FAQ. My hope is that we get a good bit of Errata dropping out Destroyers to maybe 25ppm. I think then they may be playable.
Ideasweasel wrote:Are you guys sure there is going to be an FAQ already? Any idea of rough timescale?
Quick question as I'm returning to 40k after a very long absence. If I buy the digital Admech codex do all of the adjusted rules get posted online to the digital copy or do I still need to print FAQ sheets out?
Have never seen the value of buying the books personally as it seems they go out of fashion faster than those denim jackets with the pretend paint stains on em
*i should add I don't mean to disrespect those that enjoy the books, I just feel they don't offer much value for money for myself
Probably a week after our 'Dex releases, as it has been for most of the others. And don't feel bad, I am the same with books. Get the digital editions - way better.
Jaynen wrote: Question about Mars Cawl Detachments, does your whole army even if not mars get the double canticles because they all have the canticles keyword?
Nope. Only units with that Dogma receive the benefit of both.
KampfKrote wrote: Any word on Electro Priests stats? I'm curious if they're changing at all, and which people think will be best?
Stat wise, I don't think they changed. Fulgurites went up 1ppm above the Index. Corpuscarii are now only 14ppm.
They do radically different things, so really not sure one is the "best". It is definitely build-dependent. Corpuscarii are good via Lucius Deep Strike, while Fulgurites benefit from the Stygies Infiltration.
Is it assumed that the taser lance will be the only taser type weapon to get the bump to -1 ap? Corp Priests would be pretty nasty if they got that change as well.
KampfKrote wrote: Is it assumed that the taser lance will be the only taser type weapon to get the bump to -1 ap? Corp Priests would be pretty nasty if they got that change as well.
I think most of us are going off this info. So no, no change on the Corpuscarii.
And because I am bored at work and feeling ridiculous, I did a non-Cawl, non-Mars list that is all about dropping in threats. Never would I field this, because I would never own that many Priests, but it is pretty hilarious(ly bad):
I largely agree with your analysis of vangaurd @em_en_oh_pee, but if I was to try and use them as bubble wrap for the artillery, maybe say 2-3 units of 10 with 2 specials, could that be viable? Is it a decent point investment (128pts per index) for bubble wrap? I think then it would help keep deep strikers back away from the important stuff and give you s tiny bit of deterrent with the plasmas, or arc rifles if you so chose. More importantly for me, and I take it most of us are on the same page, is that it'd keep us with an all admech force and not be looking to bring in help from the guard index that is sure to take a hit in the areas it is so good in right now, specifically it's artillery and cheap spamable troops.
I am interested in some dragoons, but I think my most important next purchase will be a set of kastellans and then I will hopefully go for 2 balistarii boxes, and I'm conflicted on whether to go CC or shooting with them. I love the idea of mobile lascannons, but I feel like onagers are better at that, and they'll get sniped out because people don't like playing against lascannons right now (for good reason). So I could see either 2 autocannon balistarii to help with anti-infantry/hordes or some dragoons to help with a deep strike/cc buffer.
Castellan Alaric wrote: I largely agree with your analysis of vangaurd @em_en_oh_pee, but if I was to try and use them as bubble wrap for the artillery, maybe say 2-3 units of 10 with 2 specials, could that be viable? Is it a decent point investment (128pts per index) for bubble wrap? I think then it would help keep deep strikers back away from the important stuff and give you s tiny bit of deterrent with the plasmas, or arc rifles if you so chose. More importantly for me, and I take it most of us are on the same page, is that it'd keep us with an all admech force and not be looking to bring in help from the guard index that is sure to take a hit in the areas it is so good in right now, specifically it's artillery and cheap spamable troops.
I am interested in some dragoons, but I think my most important next purchase will be a set of kastellans and then I will hopefully go for 2 balistarii boxes, and I'm conflicted on whether to go CC or shooting with them. I love the idea of mobile lascannons, but I feel like onagers are better at that, and they'll get sniped out because people don't like playing against lascannons right now (for good reason). So I could see either 2 autocannon balistarii to help with anti-infantry/hordes or some dragoons to help with a deep strike/cc buffer.
Appreciate the help boss.
Large squads of Skitarii usually wind up hurting due to their low leadership. That liability is why you see so little actually invested in them. If they were Fearless, I would run them in squads of 10 with Special Weapons, for sure. Especially Stygies, for that sweet -1 to-hit. But at the moment, they are just too easily undone by their own leadership to make it worthwhile, imo. That is why Dragoons were tested and proved to be simply overall better at screening against deep strikes. And you are right, Onagers do long-range antitank better, so I would say go for Dragoons over Ballistarii - especially under Stygies and now with the -1 AP on the Lance, they can do some damage. I think the Autocannons are pretty mediocre and we have plenty of anti-horde with Kastellans.
Despite what gendoikari87 says - and what he says is wrong and uninformed - Dragoons are a solid screening unit that does double-duty as an objective grabber.
That is my local metagame. Plus assaulty Wolves and some Dark Eldar spamming Lances which is actually an awful matchup for us (pre-Codex at least). For some reason my area is highly competitive.
Wolves are surprisingly not too bad. And I think we're favored slightly in the Dark Eldar matchup due to Icarus Crawlers (Venoms and Raiders have tissue paper for armor), but then again, I have always advocated doing 1:1 Neutron:Icarus.
We outgun Wolves pretty well, since they are usually somewhat elite. The issue is their speed getting into combat with stuff like Thunderwolves presents a clear-and-present threat we must mitigate.
Dark Eldar Lance spam only is an issue because of target saturation and volume of high strength, low AP fire that really chews up our vehicles. Thankfully, it is all reliant on their damage dice, because if their dice go cold, they are doing 1's and 2's, not 5's and 6's. That being said, they up the statistics by having ~15 of them on the table, meaning we will lose Robots and Onagers quickly. It isn't a list you will likely see as it suffers in most metagames, but it was one I saw in mine and noted it as something we should keep an eye out for.
Good explanation.
Wait, so you're facing 15x10 Kabalites with 1x Dark Lance each? That is nasty. Fortunately, we outrange them and will likely get to shoot first. Still, I haven't seen it, but will look out for it; most Dark Eldar lists are still the TAC variety.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Why wouldn't you give it a Phosphor Serpenta? Sure it isn't much, but it is better than nothing.
Serpentas are not good. Ironically, if they were pistols, they would be okay for Dragoons. (I really wish they could take Macrostubbers or something.)
gendoikari87 wrote: Now back the issue at hand if you want to win with Mechanicus there is a very easy way. the new codex didn't give us a lot but it gave us some things. more importantly we have the detachment system and IG is top tier right now. it uses wyverns and manticores to blast the enemy and conscripts to shoot and deny terrain. much better than dragoons could ever hope to do and they'll output a lot more damage at long range so they can sit on objectives and be a threat to half the board. So my advice is run a Spearhead of mechanicus and a detachment of guard for screening. might not be as good as pure guard but it takes the best element of the guard and gives you options. I personally run a Grey knight detachment because i like to go in hard for the kill. but that's me.
alternatively you can wait till the forgeworld book comes out because that's bound to have some nice stuff.
People are just being salty, but if you're objective and compare us to the CSM and SM codexes, you will see that we got some potent tools. Yes, it is true some of our stuff seems to be useless filler, but there are clearly some competitive choices.
Dude. I just showed you the math a few pages ago. Dragoons and Conscripts are equally durable screens because neither kills the other within 6 turns. The difference is that Dragoons are one large body and can move 10".
SilverAlien wrote: Alright, so I got to test out some of the new rules, and I really have to say I think stygies is better for onagers than mars+Cawl. -1 to incoming fire does a lot for their longevity, particularly against armies like guard with their 4+. Cawl does help more as the profile degrades, but between stygies and our new repair boosts from WT+artifact I was able to keep them at least at a 4+ up and usually at a 3+ till they got destroyed.
Kastalens still work far better alongside Cawl, but I'm considering using a unit of destroyers to activate the +1 shooting stratagem instead. It's a little bit more expensive points wise, Cawl vs dominus is 120ish points and the rangers they replace are 40, so that's around 50 extra points being spent, plus the cp as well. But it's also more firepower, getting three heavy grav culverins hitting on a 3+ as well as a couple extra phosphor hits, not to mention the durability boost both units will have.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Looking like a Cawl/Kastellen/Crawler spearhead with a Stygies battalion for everything else
And yea, allying in X faction that happens to be OP is a crutch, should be able to win with pure Ad Mech.
I've been planning Mars/Stygies hybrids as well. My problem is maximizing the use of the HQs. If you move all of the Crawlers into the Spearhead, the two Enginseers have nothing to do, as they only repair Forge World, Knights, and Guard vehicles.
My compromise is to keep Icarus with Cawl to better hit ground units; he's pretty much managing all the volume fire stuff. Neutron Crawlers in Stygies to get the -1 to hit and a dedicated Enginseer, which facilitates trades.
Mars Battalion, Stygies Outrider:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1122
HQ - 302 1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord: Necromechanic
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
Heavy Support - 286 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Heavy Support - 286 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1957 points 7 Command Points
Quick note, these lists are 1957 points and not done. I am waiting for my codex for final decisions.
Suzuteo, I was facing down a ton of Raiders (that have them mounted) with squads toting them inside, triple Ravagers, and like three flyers. It was an overwhelming amount of Dark Lances.
It was... less than fun. Caught me by surprise too.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Suzuteo, I was facing down a ton of Raiders (that have them mounted) with squads toting them inside, triple Ravagers, and like three flyers. It was an overwhelming amount of Dark Lances.
It was... less than fun. Caught me by surprise too.
Ah. I can see how that would be a problem. It's not like Razorback or Rhinox spam where you can tie them up with Dragoons. Flying keyword and all.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Suzuteo, I was facing down a ton of Raiders (that have them mounted) with squads toting them inside, triple Ravagers, and like three flyers. It was an overwhelming amount of Dark Lances.
It was... less than fun. Caught me by surprise too.
Ah. I can see how that would be a problem. It's not like Razorback or Rhinox spam where you can tie them up with Dragoons. Flying keyword and all.
And they all have a damn invuln! 33% of my firepower was bouncing off his stuff.
People are just being salty, but if you're objective and compare us to the CSM and SM codexes, you will see that we got some potent tools. Yes, it is true some of our stuff seems to be useless filler, but there are clearly some competitive choices.
Dude. I just showed you the math a few pages ago. Dragoons and Conscripts are equally durable screens because neither kills the other within 6 turns. The difference is that Dragoons are one large body and can move 10".
the durability isn't the issue, the issue is damage output a conscript squad puts out a lot of shots. base infantry are even better, but heavy on unit choices so you'll be going last if you go that route.
and yes we do have potent tools. Kastelans are point for point better than razorbacks and you can throw them in a squad so razorspam is outclassed by kastelans. onagers too are potent anti tank tools.
People are just being salty, but if you're objective and compare us to the CSM and SM codexes, you will see that we got some potent tools. Yes, it is true some of our stuff seems to be useless filler, but there are clearly some competitive choices.
Dude. I just showed you the math a few pages ago. Dragoons and Conscripts are equally durable screens because neither kills the other within 6 turns. The difference is that Dragoons are one large body and can move 10".
the durability isn't the issue, the issue is damage output a conscript squad puts out a lot of shots. base infantry are even better, but heavy on unit choices so you'll be going last if you go that route.
This guy is so hung up on damage potential, entirely forgetting that is not at all a vital aspect of the unit in the context of our army. Even still, three S8 AP -1 attacks with 6's turning into three hits is good for less than 70pt, given its durability and mobility.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Hmm would a Datasmith in a Stygies Detachment be able to change protocol on bots in a Mars detachment?
And i thought the repair aspect was based off the Adeptus Mechanicus keyword, not <Forge World>
Unless the wording changes, the Datasmith says "friendly Kastelan Robot" - so FW doesn't seem to matter there.
For Cawl and TPD, again unless they change it, can repair any "friendly Adeptus Mechanicus model". So that is pretty stellar.
The Enginseer is the only one limited with the <FORGE WORLD> stipulation.
Wasnt sure, never payed attention to the Enginseer rules until now. Not a bad idea to mix/match crawlers between mars and stygies, they dont really need the reroll as much as the bots. Its really just deciding what goes in what forgeworld detachment
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Large squads of Skitarii usually wind up hurting due to their low leadership. That liability is why you see so little actually invested in them. If they were Fearless, I would run them in squads of 10 with Special Weapons, for sure. Especially Stygies, for that sweet -1 to-hit. But at the moment, they are just too easily undone by their own leadership to make it worthwhile, imo. That is why Dragoons were tested and proved to be simply overall better at screening against deep strikes. And you are right, Onagers do long-range antitank better, so I would say go for Dragoons over Ballistarii - especially under Stygies and now with the -1 AP on the Lance, they can do some damage. I think the Autocannons are pretty mediocre and we have plenty of anti-horde with Kastellans.
What about the addition of an enhanced data tether for a reroll? I know them starting at a 6 and only going up to a 7 with the alpha is a little low, but that was why I was running 5 man units of vanguard with a EDT. I found they got blown off the board by a stiff breeze (cough wyvern cough) so I was hoping a 10-man unit would hold up a bit better, though if they start taking 3 casualties a turn and I need to roll under a 4, it'll be a tad dicey, even with a reroll.
Dig the dragoons, I was really down on the models (and if I'm being perfectly honest I really am not a HUGE fan) but with what they can do, I can make it work lol
Dispensing with all fluff and solo admech desires, shouldn't I be using scions and conscripts as my buffer instead of skitarri foot troops? Please don't respond with, 'but fluff, I only run pure admech, you are a bad person for trying to be competitive, balances whines are more important than trying to win'. I am talking COMPETITIVE. If I am going to a GT or a 3 game tourney day, I want to win. I want to bring the strongest list even if I have emotional attachments to certain plastic figures. Compare these two battalions as side pieces to a Cawl/Dakkastelon/Onager spearhead [this spearhead is officially the meta].
Lucius Battalion (~530 points): 2x Enginseer ~110 points for both 3x Blinged Plasma Vanguard squads (~140 points a piece for max damage per CP spent deepstriking them)
The Lucius battallion feels strictly worse, even though I have the models for it and think it would be kind of fun. The Lucius battalion eats all of its CP to deepstrike and provides no screen. The Lucius battalion delivers 18 plasma shots at 18" versus the scions putting 13 plasma shots at 12". But I can't afford to risk putting the Lucius guys on the table because they will get cleaned off. Whereas the AM battalion lets me keep the CP and gives me guys to stand in the way to absorb the magnus charge // smite spam // deepstrike doom. Even further, the Lucius battallion has enginseers which manage to provide zero buffs to any units and can't repair outside of their <forgeworld>. The AM battalion brings its reroll to 1s orders along with it, and can even give orders to the conscripts if they survive past turn 1.
EDIT: I think there may be something to use Stygies skitarii rangers as screen. They have -1 to be hit and are only 8 points. That makes them not quite as durable as conscripts per point, but like almost getting there. The result if you manage to get some 3+ to hit riflemen on the board with a much smaller footprint than the conscripts, but this keeps the fluff going sort of. On the other hand, this feels like the worst of both worlds. The Stygies screen line won't cover as much as the conscripts, and won't have the plasma deepstrike firepower of the Lucius battalion.
Competitive wise I dont see the point of using AdMech then. Just kidding. Plasma drop with vanguard is not as good as with scions. Period. If you want to go down that route then go scions.
Iago40k wrote: Competitive wise I dont see the point of using AdMech then. Just kidding. Plasma drop with vanguard is not as good as with scions. Period. If you want to go down that route then go scions.
I think the Cawl/Dakkastellons/Onager spearhead is full blown competitive. If you feed it CP, it cleans things off the board with volleys of mortal wounds. The big weakness back in the index days was things with invul saves (like magnus). Now Cawl/Mars can blow magnus off the table. I would put the Cawl spearhead up there with an RG backed devastator gunline in terms of firepower. The question is what to bring with the Cawl spearhead to maximize its effectiveness.
Iago40k wrote: Competitive wise I dont see the point of using AdMech then. Just kidding. Plasma drop with vanguard is not as good as with scions. Period. If you want to go down that route then go scions.
I think the Cawl/Dakkastellons/Onager spearhead is full blown competitive. If you feed it CP, it cleans things off the board with volleys of mortal wounds. The big weakness back in the index days was things with invul saves (like magnus). Now Cawl/Mars can blow magnus off the table. I would put the Cawl spearhead up there with an RG backed devastator gunline in terms of firepower. The question is what to bring with the Cawl spearhead to maximize its effectiveness.
I'm gonna try Deathwing Knights! But Conscripts and/or Scions would probably be better.
I just watched Battle on BoLS twich. There was ad mech vs Death Guard. Ad mech had two units of 6 dragoons. They did most damage of everything. Yeah, that was 86 pl armies, no Dakastelans, one icarus onager, and three Vanguard squads.
Not our standard army, but they obliterated poxwalkers and plague marines. The +2 stratagem gives them much needed punch. Even without one they destroyed predator.
I know that is not very representative data, but they got my attention.
a big unit of dragoons using that 2+ strategem with exploding sixs is about the only way i'd use them.But it would have to be a build based solely around them and a lot of CP.
I don't think anyone is really debating how effective our gunline is. It's more about what is best to support that gunline when it comes to scoring points/objectives and letting it do its job.
I'm still not sure what the sweetspot is for dakkastellans and onager types in the Cawl spearhead contrary to how some people feel about the neutrons I tend to have more success with them than the icarus, and I largely feel the icarus fills a similar role as the dakkastellans.
Overcharged plasma scions are just pretty much impossible to beat on points effectiveness as deepstrike weapons given you are within rapid fire range on their weapons at str 8 ap -2 and 2 damage
People are just being salty, but if you're objective and compare us to the CSM and SM codexes, you will see that we got some potent tools. Yes, it is true some of our stuff seems to be useless filler, but there are clearly some competitive choices.
Dude. I just showed you the math a few pages ago. Dragoons and Conscripts are equally durable screens because neither kills the other within 6 turns. The difference is that Dragoons are one large body and can move 10".
the durability isn't the issue, the issue is damage output a conscript squad puts out a lot of shots. base infantry are even better, but heavy on unit choices so you'll be going last if you go that route.
This guy is so hung up on damage potential, entirely forgetting that is not at all a vital aspect of the unit in the context of our army. Even still, three S8 AP -1 attacks with 6's turning into three hits is good for less than 70pt, given its durability and mobility.
But... it makes no sense. Conscripts do even less damage. Except maybe to other Conscripts.
Wulfey wrote: Dispensing with all fluff and solo admech desires, shouldn't I be using scions and conscripts as my buffer instead of skitarri foot troops? Please don't respond with, 'but fluff, I only run pure admech, you are a bad person for trying to be competitive, balances whines are more important than trying to win'. I am talking COMPETITIVE. If I am going to a GT or a 3 game tourney day, I want to win. I want to bring the strongest list even if I have emotional attachments to certain plastic figures. Compare these two battalions as side pieces to a Cawl/Dakkastelon/Onager spearhead [this spearhead is officially the meta].
Spoiler:
Lucius Battalion (~530 points):
2x Enginseer ~110 points for both
3x Blinged Plasma Vanguard squads (~140 points a piece for max damage per CP spent deepstriking them)
The Lucius battallion feels strictly worse, even though I have the models for it and think it would be kind of fun. The Lucius battalion eats all of its CP to deepstrike and provides no screen. The Lucius battalion delivers 18 plasma shots at 18" versus the scions putting 13 plasma shots at 12". But I can't afford to risk putting the Lucius guys on the table because they will get cleaned off. Whereas the AM battalion lets me keep the CP and gives me guys to stand in the way to absorb the magnus charge // smite spam // deepstrike doom. Even further, the Lucius battallion has enginseers which manage to provide zero buffs to any units and can't repair outside of their <forgeworld>. The AM battalion brings its reroll to 1s orders along with it, and can even give orders to the conscripts if they survive past turn 1.
EDIT: I think there may be something to use Stygies skitarii rangers as screen. They have -1 to be hit and are only 8 points. That makes them not quite as durable as conscripts per point, but like almost getting there. The result if you manage to get some 3+ to hit riflemen on the board with a much smaller footprint than the conscripts, but this keeps the fluff going sort of. On the other hand, this feels like the worst of both worlds. The Stygies screen line won't cover as much as the conscripts, and won't have the plasma deepstrike firepower of the Lucius battalion.
I don't think Conscripts are as good for us any more. This is because the cost of taking a separate Guard Battalion (248 points) is higher than just adding one Enginseer and three Ranger units (172 points) to one of our usual detachments; as long as we have a vehicle for each Enginseer, they won't be dead points. These freed up 76 points are another Dragoon or Autocannon Ballistarii. (In short, the cheap HQ option has changed things.)
A Scion Battalion, on the other hand, is interesting. It's a deep strike option that can complement a Stygies Dragoon unit or a Lucius Electro-Priest unit.
Stygies is better than Lucius in most regards. The only time you would take Lucius is to drop fragile shooting units immediately in range of the enemy, but I agree that it is very risky.
Jaynen wrote: I don't think anyone is really debating how effective our gunline is. It's more about what is best to support that gunline when it comes to scoring points/objectives and letting it do its job.
I'm still not sure what the sweetspot is for dakkastellans and onager types in the Cawl spearhead contrary to how some people feel about the neutrons I tend to have more success with them than the icarus, and I largely feel the icarus fills a similar role as the dakkastellans.
Overcharged plasma scions are just pretty much impossible to beat on points effectiveness as deepstrike weapons given you are within rapid fire range on their weapons at str 8 ap -2 and 2 damage
Agreed. The fact that we have such a fantastic gunline is actually why it's important to protect it.
I think the consensus is one unit of 3-6 Kastelans in a Mars detachment.
I prefer 1:1 Neutron to Icarus, favoring Neutron in odd-numbers. Neutron is amazing against anything bigger than an MEQ, but we're in a meta where GEQs and Boyz are the primary danger. The Icarus is like a Neutron against flying transports, which is the one thing we can't really stop with Dragoons; we have to shoot them down. Icarus also easily outperforms Neutron for MEQs and below with its volume of fire. However, if you are bringing 5-6 Kastelans, you probably want fewer Icarus.
I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.
But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it
Random question, I know everyone is going "detachment X Mars + Detachment Y Stygies" but would different Forge Worlds even work together at all? The AdMech isn't exactly known for sharing, even among themselves. Maybe im wrong and they still all defer to Mars, but I would have a feeling they would all work together to get an STC and try to kill each other on the way instead of well orchestrated teamwork like our lists are proposing.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.
But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it
I hope they do a fun debuff. Like this:
Get Fragged: Each time you make a roll of 1 in a Morale test, remove a friendly Commissar within 6".
I made my conscript blobs out of spare mantic zombies and spare cultists. I glued some admech bits on them and tell my opponent that cawl is experimenting with expendable/redeemable cannon fodder.
EDIT: the +2 to hit strategem made Icarus and Lascannon Ballistari (at least 2 of them in 1 unit) more viable. The +2 to hit on the icarus gives them full BS against ground units and the +2 to hit on the lascannons allows them to effectively ignore a -1 to hit. Of course this also works for the neutron because now you can fire the neutron at a Storm Raven at 2+ to hit, which is hilarious.
generalchaos34 wrote: Random question, I know everyone is going "detachment X Mars + Detachment Y Stygies" but would different Forge Worlds even work together at all? The AdMech isn't exactly known for sharing, even among themselves. Maybe im wrong and they still all defer to Mars, but I would have a feeling they would all work together to get an STC and try to kill each other on the way instead of well orchestrated teamwork like our lists are proposing.
Fluff wise? Probably would be some animosity... sometimes maybe hostility. But rules wise, we are looking to press our few advantages from our kinda mediocre Codex. So you see FW blending. My army will be Metalica white, but will be Mars and Stygies!
WrentheFaceless wrote: I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.
But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it
There's one of two ways that can go. they nerf them a little and they're still OP or they nerf them HARD. like harder than anything has ever been nerfed before. They're already close to guardsmen level in points as you can make them according to conventional wisdom. So they're going to have to swing a random bat and hope it hits true. If it were me I'd give the commissars the same ability gria gives (I think it's gria) where its basically FNP on a 4+ but only works on morale. instead of negating it all. I'd also do the crazy thing and make them cost the same as guardsmen. the big blob itself as a single unit is value.
Also no conscripts literally in the literal sense have infinitely more destructive power than dragoons... at range.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.
But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it
I hope they do a fun debuff. Like this:
Get Fragged: Each time you make a roll of 1 in a Morale test, remove a friendly Commissar within 6".
Funny and dark as gak for those vietnam vets still out there.
generalchaos34 wrote: Random question, I know everyone is going "detachment X Mars + Detachment Y Stygies" but would different Forge Worlds even work together at all? The AdMech isn't exactly known for sharing, even among themselves. Maybe im wrong and they still all defer to Mars, but I would have a feeling they would all work together to get an STC and try to kill each other on the way instead of well orchestrated teamwork like our lists are proposing.
Dogmatic Archmagos with a more creative and underhand second who's spent time in the Explorator fleets, if anyone other than the Inquisition has full run on the Imperium then it'll be high ranking members of the Cult Mechanicus. Given the rest of the army is slaved to their perception of reality to some degree, having a conclave of Magi from more than one Forgeworld with their own retinues isn't going to be that uncommon. They're all working to further the glories of Triplex Phall, but learnt their trade in different schools.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.
But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it
I hope they do a fun debuff. Like this:
Get Fragged: Each time you make a roll of 1 in a Morale test, remove a friendly Commissar within 6".
Funny and dark as gak for those vietnam vets still out there.
It's actually in the fluff. Colonel Schaeffer and Commissar Cain routinely had to deal with it.
I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.
To be clear however the only reason we are really talking about taking Mars is for Cawl right? The mortal wounds stratagem seems pretty niche to me.
What was the difference between a TPDs reroll and Cawls in % improvement someone had mathhammered it
They just need a relic that you can give a TPD that gives them Cawls reroll or something.
I really just want to run Stygie AM and then the separate scions detachment which I am already planning to paint like Tech Guard
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KampfKrote wrote: I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.
KampfKrote wrote: I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.
Outrider
Engineer w/ Servo Arm
Dragoon
Dragoon
Dragoon
5 CP 999 Pts
Outrider = Stygies
Spearhead = Mars
You can cut Cawl for Dominus. With the freed up points, take 3 units of Rangers (or Vanguard) and merge the two units together into one large Stygies Battalion. Skitarii are actually really strong in low-point games where troops are a larger share of the units. Repairs and -1 to hit are also much stronger for the same reasons. You actually don't really even need Wrath of Mars, as you don't have a large enough unit of Kastelans to take advantage of it.
What was the difference between a TPDs reroll and Cawls in % improvement someone had mathhammered it
That was me.
TPD's reroll 1s aura improves the average dice roll by 11.9%, Cawl's by 27.78%. If we're looking at purely the aura, Cawl is better than Dominus at 723 points. (That means you have 723 points of stuff around Magnus being buffed with rerolls.)
So without the codex on hand, here is what I am thinking for my next list. Note, this is not a tourny list. This is a fun/casual game list.
Stygies Detachemtn
----------------------
1 TPD
1 Engineseer
4 rangers 5 man each, sniper in each
3 Onagar dunecrawlers, 2 neutron beams 1 Icarrus array all stubbors
Goal of this is 4 squads to hold objectives and or screen and if lucky they can snipe somthing as to not make them wholly useless if no targets are close. TPD and Enginseer, will babysit the Dunecrawlers and grant them a reroll.
Lucius Detachment
-------------------------
1 TPD
1 Enginseer
3 squads of Battle servitors*
1 lazcannon chicken
Goal of this force is a good old teleport a problem in your face. I'd teleport all but the enginseer towards something that needed to die, or place a firebase somewhere. Chicken was added to give the priest something to do.
*depending on my mood either 2 squads of destroyers and a squad of breachers or the other way around. Probably heavy grav as I like the five shots each and give them flamers, in case they need to go in hot.
This whole list is about 1700pts, leaving about 300. Which could either be used for adding chickens dragoon or laz chickens in the stygies for extra firepower/counter. Or what I think I will do, make 300pts worth of infiltrators and just have them cause havok.
Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone
Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone
Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.
I say run the Dunestriders as Mars in the main Mars detachment and run them as 1 unit. If they are all 1, then when you use the +2 to hit canticle you get the most out of it. They are less durable as Mars, but their damage as a single unit will be vastly higher per CP spent.
right, must be same forgeworld. I guess Lucius will be a patrol with more vanguard then. Cant find a way to fit all this stuff into a 1850 lists with 3 detachments yet -.-
ANother approach would be 3x10 corpuscarii and switch another vanguard to rangers to get the 4 points needed...argh!
btw how was your test game?
So looking for some opinion here with Dragoons and Ironstriders.
Putting them in muti-model units lets them get the most out of each respective stratagem. But does that benefit outweigh the side bonus of keeping them as single model units to avoid the over wounding that can come from Mortal Wound spam like Smite and the various new Death Guard abilities?
Second question involving Vanguard. Leadership is a big problem for them, as discussed. But if looking to add in psychic defense via Greyfax or any other psychic Inquisitor, does their buffing nearby Imperium units with their higher leadership make Vangaurd units appealing enough to take in larger sizes and exchange roles with Dragoons? For reference Greyfax gives LD 10 and a regular Inquisitor gives LD 9.
Marius Xerxes wrote: So looking for some opinion here with Dragoons and Ironstriders.
Putting them in muti-model units lets them get the most out of each respective stratagem. But does that benefit outweigh the side bonus of keeping them as single model units to avoid the over wounding that can come from Mortal Wound spam like Smite and the various new Death Guard abilities?
Second question involving Vanguard. Leadership is a big problem for them, as discussed. But if looking to add in psychic defense via Greyfax or any other psychic Inquisitor, does their buffing nearby Imperium units with their higher leadership make Vangaurd units appealing enough to take in larger sizes and exchange roles with Dragoons? For reference Greyfax gives LD 10 and a regular Inquisitor gives LD 9.
The trade-off is between coverage and hitting power. Right now, I prefer Dragoons in pairs (there is a pile-in problem for Dragoons in some cases that I illustrated a few pages ago) and Ballistarii in units of 2-4. Theoretically though, a large unit of Dragoons with the Conqueror Doctrina can theoretically kill transports and medium toughness units with the same efficiency as Kastelans.
Vanguard and Dragoons operate in fundamentally different ways. The former stays close to the artillery to provide last-ditch interception. The latter goes out and intercepts enemies.
I would be interested to see someone give Skitarii a try, just for fun though. I doubt it will be competitive.
Suzuteo wrote: Vanguard and Dragoons operate in fundamentally different ways. The former stays close to the artillery to provide last-ditch interception. The latter goes out and intercepts enemies.
I meant "role" in the sense of denying Deep Strike zones and buying time from assaults. They both share that role from what I've read in here so far.
In the case of Dragoons, I would think that you can't start pushing them out right away as that will lead to gaps being opened up turns two and three that could be exploited? With that (possibly inaccurate) assumption they would be holding back much the same as Vanguard I would think. At least for the first one to two turns. Suppose that would depend on what your opponent is holding in reserve and how many turns they will let go by not getting use out of it, holding out hope for a better drop position.
Iago40k wrote: right, must be same forgeworld. I guess Lucius will be a patrol with more vanguard then. Cant find a way to fit all this stuff into a 1850 lists with 3 detachments yet -.-
ANother approach would be 3x10 corpuscarii and switch another vanguard to rangers to get the 4 points needed...argh!
btw how was your test game?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone
Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.
I say run the Dunestriders as Mars in the main Mars detachment and run them as 1 unit. If they are all 1, then when you use the +2 to hit canticle you get the most out of it. They are less durable as Mars, but their damage as a single unit will be vastly higher per CP spent.
Sadly I only own 1 Dragoon and one Lazcannon chicken (though I could proxy). I am very keen on that strategem though. I think I will have to try that though, I'll make a second more chicken heavy list to see how they play out. I'm still very inexperienced for any of the chickens. I love the way they look but they are so real-world expensive, I haven't gotten many.
Lucius Vanguard
Enginseer
11 Corpuscarii
11 Corpuscarii
11 Corpuscarii
Thinking about making one of the Enginseers the WL to get the WL trait for rolling a 6 and getting a CP. Also i am toying with the idea to kick Cawl out and take 1 Mars TPD and 1 Lucius TPD. The Lucius one could blink with the solar flare after the priests came down to give them rerolls of 1. Sure, Cawl is Boss in a Mars detachment but I am getting crazy over this at the moment. It also scares me that with this detachment I am burning through CPs like crazy. Its 3 for the Priests and I am left with 5. 2 of them could be used for stygis. I could put the dragoons into 1 unit and only put 1 CP into them infiltrating. I need 1 CP for bringing the Kastelans into double shooting protocol and 2 for the mortal wounds one...So I have 1 CP for multipurposes
Me neither. I am not a fan of dropping 3 units of priests either but I am struggeling with filling up the last elite choice. Datasmith would have been great but if he cannot switch protocols on those Mars Kastelans he is basically Enginseer number 4 -.-
What I want is 2 drops of priests, 14-15 models per unit. Stygis priests could work as well but damn it seems risky to be forced to put 280 points worth of priests in the backfield because the enemy got first turn.
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
So how is the fires of cyrax or however you spell it going to change things if we get things like hoplites and triarios (triarios a super heavy or just a transport)
Biggest one if we would get CCHQ, or just something different from our standard shoot buffer TPD. Other thing depends on data sheets, and was they bring to the table. Getting transport would free us from necessity of Lucius to get our CC units into enemy positions, maybe getting them to Ryza or Graia. But beyond that, it all depends on what rules units would get.
Iago40k wrote: Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.
Well by CCHQ i mean dedicated cc. Someone who would actively try to get into fight with our other cc units and maybe buff them(charge after assault aura ect), not just protecting backline. Something like those:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-PL/Mechanicum-Myrmidon-Secutors
Beyond that, robots with jump packs are possible since they are in 30k, maybe better servitors, there are robots that fluff wise are TEQ. Potential is there.
Oh myrmidons how I love thee. But yeah a dedicated cchq would be nice. Alpha skitarii or secutor something like that that could infiltrate with the priests or infiltrators
Iago40k wrote: Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.
Definitely. But a lot of the units that are going to be deployed this way are fast enough that you can start 12"+ away, move in, and then charge. Obviously, it isn't a perfect strategy because if you end up going second, you are probably going to have those units eat some bullets or a charge.
Also skitarii lore is wide in variety from "basically guard" to gene bulked humans with weaponized limbs to literally being in terminator armor or something equivalent
Iago40k wrote: Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.
Question is if it is worth it to put some E-Priests into stygies or if one needs to open a detachment for lucius. As I was saying before I am really struggling with this atm. It looks like a lot of taxpoints in my list on the last page.
BUt if I have to deploy them just before the round starts they are not immediately dead. which is nice^^
KampfKrote wrote: I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.
Outrider
Engineer w/ Servo Arm
Dragoon
Dragoon
Dragoon
5 CP 999 Pts
Outrider = Stygies
Spearhead = Mars
You can cut Cawl for Dominus. With the freed up points, take 3 units of Rangers (or Vanguard) and merge the two units together into one large Stygies Battalion. Skitarii are actually really strong in low-point games where troops are a larger share of the units. Repairs and -1 to hit are also much stronger for the same reasons. You actually don't really even need Wrath of Mars, as you don't have a large enough unit of Kastelans to take advantage of it.
What was the difference between a TPDs reroll and Cawls in % improvement someone had mathhammered it
That was me.
TPD's reroll 1s aura improves the average dice roll by 11.9%, Cawl's by 27.78%. If we're looking at purely the aura, Cawl is better than Dominus at 723 points. (That means you have 723 points of stuff around Magnus being buffed with rerolls.)
But to your point above 2 kastellans and 2 onagers is not enough points to justify Cawl until he is actually buffing 720 points right? So for my little at work skirmishes which are lower points likely I will want to put those points elsewhere. At least currently I only have 2 robots and 2 onagers, but 2 more robots is pretty high on my list
Iago40k wrote: Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.
Question is if it is worth it to put some E-Priests into stygies or if one needs to open a detachment for lucius. As I was saying before I am really struggling with this atm. It looks like a lot of taxpoints in my list on the last page.
BUt if I have to deploy them just before the round starts they are not immediately dead. which is nice^^
I would not be dropping priests by themselves anyway I would use them the same way I use my fulgurites currently which is behind a vanguard screen that hopefully gets charged first and the priests come in to mop up and get their 3+ save then go all murder fest.
Has anyone done any math about the effectiveness of Aegis Protocols with the Stygies -1 vs protector protocol in terms of how much damage is being lost? reflecting shots on a 4? for a mortal wound would seem pretty good?
I would not be dropping priests by themselves anyway I would use them the same way I use my fulgurites currently which is behind a vanguard screen that hopefully gets charged first and the priests come in to mop up and get their 3+ save then go all murder fest.
Has anyone done any math about the effectiveness of Aegis Protocols with the Stygies -1 vs protector protocol in terms of how much damage is being lost? reflecting shots on a 4? for a mortal wound would seem pretty good?
I don't plan to use Fulgurites, only Corpuscarii. They are vastly different and deepstriking them makes them finally viable. question is if stygies is enough or we need to put them into lucius.
Iago40k wrote: Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.
Definitely. But a lot of the units that are going to be deployed this way are fast enough that you can start 12"+ away, move in, and then charge. Obviously, it isn't a perfect strategy because if you end up going second, you are probably going to have those units eat some bullets or a charge.
Yea, that is what I mean by liability. Going second means you must deploy them conservatively, not up close and personal. Not the end of the world, because having the chance to T1 charge in with Fulgurites is pretty fantastic.
Iago40k wrote: Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.
Question is if it is worth it to put some E-Priests into stygies or if one needs to open a detachment for lucius. As I was saying before I am really struggling with this atm. It looks like a lot of taxpoints in my list on the last page.
BUt if I have to deploy them just before the round starts they are not immediately dead. which is nice^^
I think for Corpuscarii, going Lucius is better. Guarantees they get their alpha strike.
Has anyone done any math about the effectiveness of Aegis Protocols with the Stygies -1 vs protector protocol in terms of how much damage is being lost? reflecting shots on a 4? for a mortal wound would seem pretty good?
Per the spoilers thus far, you only reflect shots on a 6 now. Not 6+.
Iago40k wrote: Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?
If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.
Definitely. But a lot of the units that are going to be deployed this way are fast enough that you can start 12"+ away, move in, and then charge. Obviously, it isn't a perfect strategy because if you end up going second, you are probably going to have those units eat some bullets or a charge.
Yea, that is what I mean by liability. Going second means you must deploy them conservatively, not up close and personal. Not the end of the world, because having the chance to T1 charge in with Fulgurites is pretty fantastic.
For me, it is going to be Ruststalkers. They may not hand out mortal wounds as well as Fulgerites, but damn if they don't look awesome when they do it.
I watched the miniwargaming review of the new codex yesterday...well most of it, they dont really know what they're talking about. But one thing they did mention is that the wording on aegis protocol has changed. It now specifically says that the reflected shots are on an unmodified 6. so all these saving throw bonuses we're getting, including the one from aegis protocol are irrelevant for reflections. Any confirm that for me? I mean if we think about it all these +to saves we could see it coming. reflecting mortal wounds on a 4++ is absurd lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and my current conundrum is whether to go priest or dragoon heavy for my next purchases.
I have essentially not many models, couple of start collecting boxes and a pair of robots. 2 more robots (making 4) and an enginseer are on my list, but i'm trying to figure out whether to go priests or dragoons. both are equally exensive to buy in money and I can only really afford 3 boxes of each. I wont be running cawl, because i dont like named characters tying me in to army-wide rules so plan is 1 tpd and enginseer for hqs, no knights and no imperial soup. I'm working my way up.
Essentially analysing my games in 8th so far my issues have been claiming objectives and any kind of battlefield presence outside of my own deployment and defense against charges, deep strike or mor specifically a couple of flying dameon princes dropping in and ruining my day.
I'm erring towards dragoons, mainly because they appear to be a more flexible choice if i dont intend to drop priests in someones face or hold them back for counter charges. Anyone know if it's possible to magnetize the ironstrider base to switch between dragoon and balastarii? I'm no stranger to magnets so even if it's a challenge I may attempt it anyway. That makes them a better option for me with my limit model resources.
I would like to see army lists on proper threat. Since here on tactis you should be talking about viable competitive tactics. Tactics that can win and those require for example mars we have already played a min Cawl 4-6 robots 3-5 onagers and propably destroeyers and 10 cps. So please if you wanna talk about combinations ok now if you suddently forgot that in order to have competitive we minimum need all that for dakka id appreciate if you opened a threat for you lists.
A single dragoon or a group of two just because they deep strike is not competitive is a waste. Wont have cps to execute dkka wall . Their role was to be meat cheap meat shield. If you wanna do an out rider full of dragoons dont need Cawl dont need warth etc. You need melee buffs stygia and lucius combinations and tought breachers to hold so you wo t get wipped round one. Simply put no offnce but stop spamming asking about the resukt if you send 3 groups of priest . Wont work. You need also tech priest with them with relic on rerolls melee with proper canticle etc etc.
You can compare wht you are doing with the best list so far as we saw ig troops lots with deep strike plasma. They drop 100 plasma shots. You wont win with 100 un buffed 5 0 shots. Sorry. You might if you shoot good and cc as well and thats what they do. Still not as cheap or effective as plasma so you need more to make it work. Why you spamming a list that will do nothing. You go second and mortars with out plasma anihilate you. Even if they get nerfed you cant believe they wont get gems relics etc as well.
So tactics threat contribute if you got a combination that got a role and can actually win something. Deep strike priests and mars half dakka wont cut it.
Deep strike and heave survive list maybe if planned correctly with big units etc. So few stratagems and you dont even got 20 man priest. Plz think a it ehat you are posting. Cant suddently become a dakkaline with half the units we had a week ago. Will not deliver and its not designed to work that way.
More gems more battalions more troops. Or more detachments more elite units bigger unit with purpose. Putting in a list what you vot is good for testing in friendly games . Has nothing to do with tactics. Thanks
Octovol wrote: I watched the miniwargaming review of the new codex yesterday...well most of it, they dont really know what they're talking about. But one thing they did mention is that the wording on aegis protocol has changed. It now specifically says that the reflected shots are on an unmodified 6. so all these saving throw bonuses we're getting, including the one from aegis protocol are irrelevant for reflections. Any confirm that for me? I mean if we think about it all these +to saves we could see it coming. reflecting mortal wounds on a 4++ is absurd lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and my current conundrum is whether to go priest or dragoon heavy for my next purchases.
I have essentially not many models, couple of start collecting boxes and a pair of robots. 2 more robots (making 4) and an enginseer are on my list, but i'm trying to figure out whether to go priests or dragoons. both are equally exensive to buy in money and I can only really afford 3 boxes of each. I wont be running cawl, because i dont like named characters tying me in to army-wide rules so plan is 1 tpd and enginseer for hqs, no knights and no imperial soup. I'm working my way up.
Essentially analysing my games in 8th so far my issues have been claiming objectives and any kind of battlefield presence outside of my own deployment and defense against charges, deep strike or mor specifically a couple of flying dameon princes dropping in and ruining my day.
I'm erring towards dragoons, mainly because they appear to be a more flexible choice if i dont intend to drop priests in someones face or hold them back for counter charges. Anyone know if it's possible to magnetize the ironstrider base to switch between dragoon and balastarii? I'm no stranger to magnets so even if it's a challenge I may attempt it anyway. That makes them a better option for me with my limit model resources.
Its super easy to magnetize, all you have to do is magnetize the arms, everything else will pop into place or rest on the handlebars. Only thing is I haven't figured out how to do swap lascannons or autocannons so im "stuck" with las. Im sure it would be possible to swap the barrels out.
SilverAlien wrote: I think the dragoons are the right call, I can't imagine them not being part of the army, so it's safe. The priests are still a bit untested.
Agreed. Priests are build-around units in lists that may or may not work, while the Dragoon is a proven asset that is only improved under the new 'Dex.
Wish I could fast-forward two weeks, so we can get an eye on the inevitable FAQ. Really hesitant to build my Destroyers, because if they don't fix them, I may well trade them off.
So question. Unit of 6 kastelans hitting on 5 kills 16 marines or 24 orks. So with the agrapinaa doctrine what can reliably charge and not die instantly to a unit of 6 kastelans? It ain't a five man unit of terminators average there is 12 wounds. 30 man ork blobs with warboss? Giant tyrranid swarms. What else?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also isn't there a wargear that would give them another hit on a 6 or something ?
I'd recommend the wintersSEO review on YouTube. He's not a super competitive gamer, but he's a long-time AdMech player and knows his stuff. It's also shorter by a considerable amount.
Assuming they fix the keyword issue to add Questoris Mechanicus, does anyone have any thoughts about the Forgeworld Knights? I'm drawn towards the Knight Styrix simply for the model.
monarda wrote: Assuming they fix the keyword issue to add Questoris Mechanicus, does anyone have any thoughts about the Forgeworld Knights? I'm drawn towards the Knight Styrix simply for the model.
I use an Atropos (it's the one I have) and it's a great tank/distraction carnifex. Tell your opponent how easily it slices through vehicles and monsters and they'll focus it down every game without fail. Here's the kicker, with a 4+ invuln to shooting and a 5+ invuln to melee and 27 wounds, it takes a lot to take down. This soaks a lot of high strength, high damage attacks that could cripple your artillery. In 3 games with this, 4 kastellans, and 2 onagers, I lost 3 kastellans total over all 3 games and the onagers took a combined 5 wounds over that time. It's just straight up solid. At 555 points, it's a little expensive though, just FYI.
SilverAlien wrote: I think the dragoons are the right call, I can't imagine them not being part of the army, so it's safe. The priests are still a bit untested.
Agreed. Priests are build-around units in lists that may or may not work, while the Dragoon is a proven asset that is only improved under the new 'Dex.
Wish I could fast-forward two weeks, so we can get an eye on the inevitable FAQ. Really hesitant to build my Destroyers, because if they don't fix them, I may well trade them off.
I'm hoping the 8 pt Heavy Arc rifles stay. With cheap firepower like that I could get behind using breachers.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Someone go try the shooty priest drop already (since I can't atm :p)
I did, sorta. The problem is they aren't very useful in my meta. The big horde/infantry army here is guard conscript spam. And while they were great at killing conscripts... I didn't really need them dead with my list? My dragoons still couldn't get through the remaining infantry on their own, and I had my kastalens targeting the bigger stuff over the infantry.
The fact they evaporate under any sort of return fire means they need to make up their points in one turn, which they won't against a horde army. 30 corpus priests can kill 40 conscripts/guardsman after they drop on average, which is 120-160 points vs 420 points. I got lucky and killed an entire conscript squad of 50 and knicked another, but that's still not impressive when you have four of the thirty priests left turn two. My opponent didn't even devote that much effort to killing them. Just lasguns from the rest of the infantry.
They also don't do well vs demons if your enemy runs changling+brimstone spam, but that honestly feels like me screwing up and forgetting how their ability works. Could've held them back a turn or two and tried to snipe the changling out. Though by then we'd be in melee so the whole deepstriking bit doesn't seem that relevant.
Maybe if I tried tried them vs orks or nids they would've shined, but I'm kinda skeptical.
They were kinda good vs grey knights though? Could resist smite, actually made their points back and lasted two turns, until the supporting SoB wiped them out. They still weren't really better than the kastalens though.
monarda wrote:Assuming they fix the keyword issue to add Questoris Mechanicus, does anyone have any thoughts about the Forgeworld Knights? I'm drawn towards the Knight Styrix simply for the model.
I tend to think that melee weapons on a Knight are really a waste in this edition. We have feet for horde stomping and can just walk away from more serious threats we didn't shoot to death. Styrix is also very pricey, as all the FW ones are. I think our best bet is always a Crusader.
SilverAlien wrote: I think the dragoons are the right call, I can't imagine them not being part of the army, so it's safe. The priests are still a bit untested.
Agreed. Priests are build-around units in lists that may or may not work, while the Dragoon is a proven asset that is only improved under the new 'Dex.
Wish I could fast-forward two weeks, so we can get an eye on the inevitable FAQ. Really hesitant to build my Destroyers, because if they don't fix them, I may well trade them off.
I'm hoping the 8 pt Heavy Arc rifles stay. With cheap firepower like that I could get behind using breachers.
I doubt the Plasma Cannons will change in price - those seem pretty much stock across most books. What we really need is 20pt Destroyers, because they have that 4+ and only 3W. I could get down with 55-58pt for each. I mean, a 5-man Heckblaster squad is 165pt for 10 wounds with 3+ saves, albeit on T4 bodies not T5. They shoot better though and can Rapid Fire (so 10 shots), while we would average about the same with better range on the move (marginally). So those compare pretty well and fit similar roles, although ours are Troops. So yea, a trio of Destroyers at 174pt or so vs the comparable Heckblasters isn't far off if they were adjusted. But 35pt base winds up just being wayyyyy too much.
As for Heavy Arc... it needs to be S7. Otherwise, it is just worth it. Or AP -4 at S6, sure? I dunno, just not a fan.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Someone go try the shooty priest drop already (since I can't atm :p)
I did, sorta. The problem is they aren't very useful in my meta. The big horde/infantry army here is guard conscript spam. And while they were great at killing conscripts... I didn't really need them dead with my list? My dragoons still couldn't get through the remaining infantry on their own, and I had my kastalens targeting the bigger stuff over the infantry.
The fact they evaporate under any sort of return fire means they need to make up their points in one turn, which they won't against a horde army. 30 corpus priests can kill 40 conscripts/guardsman after they drop on average, which is 120-160 points vs 420 points. I got lucky and killed an entire conscript squad of 50 and knicked another, but that's still not impressive when you have four of the thirty priests left turn two. My opponent didn't even devote that much effort to killing them. Just lasguns from the rest of the infantry.
They also don't do well vs demons if your enemy runs changling+brimstone spam, but that honestly feels like me screwing up and forgetting how their ability works. Could've held them back a turn or two and tried to snipe the changling out. Though by then we'd be in melee so the whole deepstriking bit doesn't seem that relevant.
Maybe if I tried tried them vs orks or nids they would've shined, but I'm kinda skeptical.
They were kinda good vs grey knights though? Could resist smite, actually made their points back and lasted two turns, until the supporting SoB wiped them out. They still weren't really better than the kastalens though.
Definitely seems like a meta call for sure and I can't see it factoring into the competitive scene as much. Too many hordes, where the volume won't matter. Against more elite armies where failing saves hurts per model, sure, but really it is a lot of work to make them work properly.
Personally, I am just going to double-down on the gunline. I think that is where we shine brightest.
I think it might work if you build a list around them, but I don't think they are particularly useful alongside our existing gun line builds. Vanguard/rangers screen better, and we really don't need deepstrike anti infantry firepower that badly.
Octovol wrote: I watched the miniwargaming review of the new codex yesterday...well most of it, they dont really know what they're talking about. But one thing they did mention is that the wording on aegis protocol has changed. It now specifically says that the reflected shots are on an unmodified 6. so all these saving throw bonuses we're getting, including the one from aegis protocol are irrelevant for reflections. Any confirm that for me? I mean if we think about it all these +to saves we could see it coming. reflecting mortal wounds on a 4++ is absurd lol
Oh and my current conundrum is whether to go priest or dragoon heavy for my next purchases.
I have essentially not many models, couple of start collecting boxes and a pair of robots. 2 more robots (making 4) and an enginseer are on my list, but i'm trying to figure out whether to go priests or dragoons. both are equally exensive to buy in money and I can only really afford 3 boxes of each. I wont be running cawl, because i dont like named characters tying me in to army-wide rules so plan is 1 tpd and enginseer for hqs, no knights and no imperial soup. I'm working my way up.
Essentially analysing my games in 8th so far my issues have been claiming objectives and any kind of battlefield presence outside of my own deployment and defense against charges, deep strike or mor specifically a couple of flying dameon princes dropping in and ruining my day.
I'm erring towards dragoons, mainly because they appear to be a more flexible choice if i dont intend to drop priests in someones face or hold them back for counter charges. Anyone know if it's possible to magnetize the ironstrider base to switch between dragoon and balastarii? I'm no stranger to magnets so even if it's a challenge I may attempt it anyway. That makes them a better option for me with my limit model resources.
Yes, we mentioned it earlier. Natural 6s for Aegis and double shots, which helps for certain new rules.
Dragoons are superior screens to Electro-Priests. Electro-Priests are superior deep-strikers to Sicarians now. They just need a good detachment dogma.
Magnetizing Dragoons can be tricky. Lots of small, fiddly bits. I would just swap the entire right arm and cannon module out.
That is why Guard is strong though. They're good at plopping giant bricks on objectives and forcing us to uproot them--all the while worrying about Scions jumping in and ruining our day.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Do we have any other way of beating Horde screens then? They just take over the table and win through objectives if you don't kill them, no?
Let me guess: bring your own.
Pin them in with dragoons, 2 per unit works well imo. They can fall back, but you can control which direction they fall back, as any sort of large horde will struggle to move their entire squad from one side of your dragoon to the other, and with two you can prevent them from even moving off to a side, forcing them to fall back the direction you want them to.
These are also low priority units. Yes, they can capture objectives, but you have time to deal with them. Using kastalens which focus on tanks or MC or elite infantry first, then turn to objective holding squads afterwards is a viable option.
Also, let's be honest: kastalens are better at killing hordes. In one turn? No. But kastalens will get 2 or more turns shooting vs most horde armies, particularly melee ones. So even if you just want to focus infantry, the staying power of kastalens will usually outweigh the one turn potential of the priests.
Plus, our infantry is another option. Rangers aren't actually that much worse at killing geq compared to priests for their cost, plus can be significantly tougher and don't need cp. Use barebones squads with Stygies to capture objectives and fight other infantry.
The fact is you are already going to field all of the above units, and they can do this without being single purpose suicide units.
Can I ask what army you really see this helping against? Brimstone spam is the big one, because (without changling) they clear those our dramatically better than kastalens and aren't at much risk themselves. But against guard they die too quick to make a real impact, against orks or nids their hordes are almost all melee focused and will come to you, and I'm not sure what other horde armies are out there and very competitive.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well there are mostly 2 armies in warhamer right now: Brimstones, Changeling /Cultists screen + stuff
Conscripts/assassins screen + stuff
They need to nerf Conscripts and rework the character rule. The assassins army is stupid.
For brimstones... yeah I can see holding them a turn or two, using rangers to sniper changling then drop them in. But, at least the way my friend plays them, that many turns in whatever they were screening should be in melee range and the deepstrike is kinda questionable? Also brimstones apparently don't get obj secured, because demons are weird. Not sure if that's still the official word but that's how tournaments were running it.
For guard, I think we should focus on outshooting them, which we can do. Stygies is wonderful vs a BS 4+ army and BS 5+ conscripts. The scions can be a bit more dangerous, but again we now have proper infantry to screen and protect our big units.
The assassin thing I'm less familiar with, I'll have to look into it. I'd assume we just need more snipers in our list.
Iago40k wrote: I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.
Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.
Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.
Iago40k wrote: I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.
Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.
Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.
Don't forget that brimstones aren't immune to morale. Distribute the kastalen's fire to try and get around 5-7 wounds per squad, and you can bump that to 45-50 range. Not a huge improvement but it's important to remember.
Iago40k wrote: I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.
Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.
Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.
Except 1x6 Kastelans is dangerous, especially against armies like Tau.
Wrath of Mars is great because we can pretty much instantly kill any character with 4 Kastelans. (I think we need a bit of assistance for Magnus though. Even 6 Kastelans can't do an average of 18 damage to T7 4++.)
Iago40k wrote: I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.
Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.
Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.
Except 1x6 Kastelans is dangerous, especially against armies like Tau.
Wrath of Mars is great because we can pretty much instantly kill any character with 4 Kastelans. (I think we need a bit of assistance for Magnus though. Even 6 Kastelans can't do an average of 18 damage to T7 4++.)
1x6 is no more or less dangerous, really, than 2x3 or 3x2 or whatnot. It just saves us CP when we Wrath.
We are doing ~10 mortal wounds to Magnus when he is in the Changeling bubble. Maybe 9ish will get through his 4++ w/ re-rolling 1's. So, that is just enough to kill him on averages.
Well thats why we got wrath of mars a great buff. It gives an alpha strike feared from all armies. Thats why inflitrators are the best suited with mars especially when we play vs heavy assault armies. You can wrath a unit of 5-10 in any round you decide. Thats why we got insta protocol change but cant move. And generrally Mars can deal a great alpha strike ofshooting with elimination combo can do also overcharge plasma effective and threat even bigger tougness witj plasma maybe heavy enemy high toughness chars. Do not forget in this combo you can take less icarus so might work with 3 neutron or 4 depending on you detachments and if you need anti air plasma can do it or a simple gem protective doctrina +2 with broad on neutrons. Same goes for all targets like high vallue Tau with lots of -1 to hit them or even the mission with -1. All those can be dealts with elimination volley 4 robots 3-6 destroyers and 3-4 neutronagers Cawl is a great must. Now thats a dakka line and i strongly suggest 5-10 inf. That can benefit from wrath in later rounds and two melee canticles as well as 2 doctrinas. Wanna calc what 10 inflitrators with wrath and a tpd with omnicient mask can do if you play +1 to hit and reroll ones to hit with wrath on wounds charge with +1 to hit reroll 5+ tazer. +1 str shroid or reroll ones or whatev cantice even electromancy .
? In any big or small unit? Thats focus fire and focus planning. Onagers got 145 points with 2* stubber not bad to forget 5 will deliver 30 shots better than 5 priests for me 36 range.
The robots 6 -2 1 -COVER clear obj holders like a free cake. Plasma fill the gap you can even make a deep strike small detach to send 5-10 vang with plasma the volume of fire the buffs or non spend cp if things go wrong s extreme. 10 vanguard will shoot 21 rifle shots and 6 plasma . We dont have issues with bloops. Even if you play priest. But thats another tactic...
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you really want priests.
Units of 20 will do. Lucius for range ones stygia for melee ones. Make sure you got them both buffed with tpd for range with full range weapons. And omnis. Mask for melee. You require 4 cp s only for the deploy and deep strike. And you ll need to decide the rest of your army with heavy defence. So 2* vanguard and 1* battal. Seems valid. Most likely stygia can be battalion for options. Depending on enemy inflotrate breachers or priests accordingly. Flexible units like onagers are preffered. Neutronagers and icarus in teams of two. Mobility and toughness we seek. Graia battalion super good for camping troops and dragoons for flank defence . When dragoons die explode so dont forget to ge them in place. Onagers with broadsp are enough with graia to defend and always get a vanguard group for that -1 tough. Rapid rangers in meele shooting a unit with -1 is great defence. While stygia breachers great campers. If they get 7 str arc then they ll be #1 for surviving supplements.
Both priests cause either in same detachment or different you ll get to decide varying the enemy what you need to spend cp s upon. Need anti bloop then range one. Need mortals then elite. Vanguards can close the detach ment can prpvide cheap third option as counter in your army or move 8 etc. Theycan be an option with skitarii buffs if things go wrong. Or you facing elite armie. If you believe a more priests 1*5 and 1*5 can defend or even inf. Again id suggest one detach. Licius or stygia to get a plan and use it. Mybe 2*20 same priests id take melee ones as they team up with dragoons and a batt graia to defene and deal with blops. Snipes in stygia or any detachment can help a lot here since a lat wound if you plit fire a char kill is vital to win this. A unit if breachers withnapl buffs can hold the relic for 2 rounds easy. High alpha strike elite mobile armoes can hurt you a lot plan accordingly. If they come for you dont forget you can always screen with graia deep - inf breacherd and all priests and vanguard initially where the best counter units.
If you finally decide one type of priests and use one hq to buff them can lower the cp cost. Drop 20 with hq buff them then nother 20 as long as hq i 6" from both. If you decide what type you ll favor there i always cheap s!itarii to fill the detachm 2*10 melee priest one rust same for rnge and inf or mess around. Your playtyke determines a lot here but dont forget onagers to cover what you will be missing. Usually antitnk. Unless you plan to deep strike plasma vanguards and or destroyers. If you go stygia dragoons prefer 1*2-3 dragoons and solo las balistari. Same goe for them either they remain t back or inlflitrate can get buffed from hq on both types of priest. And usually you wanna run same canticles according to your plan.
Troops troops troops. As many as possible with stars can be done with 2* batt and 2* vang detachments. And mass. Use gems where you need form expoding till mass inf. Units all over the table. Your army can move and shoot all of them and usually advance and shoot. You can kite of need for last rounds. As said reloc type games 6 spread obj etc is your thing!! Of you decide to go for less detachments dragoons melee priest etc melee in general favored for stygia detachment. Remember if you going second plqce your units at least 12" away for the enemy.
Deciding what units will be put in deep strike or inflitrate is the most important part of the game . So care the lucius amd stygia units simce they provide the options. While a Graia detach best use units bare bones and troops or onagers.
Generall.
Mars better split in 2* spearhead. Dont forget to ppqce units in range and give buffs before warth of mars. Cawl in not debatable if got 6+ hevies robots or destroyers.
Stygia best all around can be a battalion depending on plan. Usually vanguards - outriders. Most likely can be seen as brigade in lowe point games.
Units in stygia gppd defence and good offence. So all options will help dewl with various enemies.
Graia. Dont forgef warlord here will make you troops shoot in melee like pistols also in other melee fights. Take an extra on tpd relic +1 cp. Graia specific gem provides negation on pshycher abilities if within 24 of a graia unit roll 4+.
Lucius got a super relic that teleport your hq 30". What a great realoc. Making -1 ap -0 is not good.
Synergy
You dont have to buy all units day one vanguard and rangers now in graia work superb together need both.
Priests melee dragoons rustallkers can do the same. Range priests and inflt balistari can do same.you can use the army you got just remember if you eventually decide a plan you d be better to form detachments with bigger same units to execute and fill the rest. So eventually you d buy one larger group. Especially if you decide troops priests etc.
Make your list abjust relics compare the list with any other you believe is competitive and abjust details. Hf thanks for reading. As awlays this is my opinion and contribution not trying to cnvince none or know it all. As i see the codex thus far.
Omnisient mask works for skitari so if not planning to deep strike or inf any use for defence in graia. The fnp 6+ and wepons are good cust. If you go heavy melee priests plan to use gem and reroll ones canticle!
I remain wholly unconvinced when it comes to giant electropriest blobs. I am not seeing how they deal more damage than deep strike plasma vanguard. Even with deepstrike the staff priests can't reliably get a first turn charge. I could see running a blob of staff priests as Stygies and hoping you get first turn. If you do, you can move them on turn 1 before the charge. Other than that ... the priests look terrible because they can't use the awesome +toHit strategems that skitarii can use. Electropriests remain models that cost as much as space marine veterans but die like brimstones.
EDIT: kataphron destoryers remain terrible. 70 point models that can die to basic bolter/lasgun fire is just a farce. People bring wayyyy too many 'autocannon' type weapons that deal 2 damage for kataphron destroyers to be viable. Especially when you have phosphor blaster kastelons sitting there at 110 points. 2 dakkastelons is almost always more damage than 3 kataphron destroyers now thanks to the ability to first turn double shoot and wrath of mars. However, I am considering bringing 1 min squad of arc rifle breachers just so I can get at the +1 to hit canticle for the robots. The question is whether 3 breachers for 50 points a piece is better than just bringing an additional 110 point robot.
EDIT2: however, I would run staff priests in a brigade as a tax. I would run them as min squads and hide them out of LOS. If the opponent has melee or deepstrike, then they get to play. Otherwise they are just going to get shot against a gunline.
I think our plasma culiverins are reasonably well priced, 27 vs 21 for a regular cannon. Ours are d6 vs the standard d3, not 100% sure that's worth 6 points but it's exclusively on a platform that can move and fire whereas most others are subject to movement penalties.
It's the kataphron base I'm not keen on. As a model concept I like it, but the mediocre BS and save really get my goat. At least with the kastelan BS 4+ it's on a sturdy survivable platform. Kataphron are just slightly more sponges marines. If they had BS 3+ and nothing else changed I'd consider them for the same points.
Heavy arc rifles feel a bit redundant because they're one point cheaper than a heavy phosphor and cover ignoring aside they are d3 dmg but 1 shot less unless against vehicles then d6dmg. I dunno I'm always a bit unimpressed by anything that's d3 dmg unless it has a mortal wound component. I'd much rather it be 2 dmg or 4 dmg. Haywire used to be super reliable.
I would use priests as mars in defence and sicarans for attacking deep strike since they are best buffed from 2 canticles and relics. If you dont play dakka heavies for mars priests plasma in mass can defend superb. Stygia always an option yes.
Breachers benefit from -1 to hit infliltrate as stygia as obj secure. Gem with +1 save +1 attack makes them really hard same as shroid and los. They will hit 4 times each in melee and their arc. Non impprtant as we talking holding an obj from round one or relic is your best tough troop. Thats it.can work as boduguards or lucius teleport hq.
I mean with all our new stratagems I will test some infiltrators again. With 5 shots a peace and wrath of mars? Yummy. Also they get 2 canticles so could be rerolls in either cc or range. Stratagem for +1 in melee pumps them into high heavens as well thanks to taser.
Indeed and we don't feel bothered about the cost of a neutron laser do we I dunno the heavy arc rifle ain't so bad, the regular rifle could use some love though. The arc pistol would be my pistol of choice if there was a pistol choice to be made lol. There's just a bunch of unique weapons we have whose potential is being squandered I feel. Every single unit has a different weapon. Or found in any other army and yet some of them don't even have any rules (looking at you torsion cannon) that would set them apart from the rest of the imperium.
Imagine how worthwhile a squad of rangers would be for example if they had retained their precision shots functionality. 30" character sprayers would be an excellent option to have and set them distinctly apart from vanguard.
Wulfey wrote: I remain wholly unconvinced when it comes to giant electropriest blobs. I am not seeing how they deal more damage than deep strike plasma vanguard. Even with deepstrike the staff priests can't reliably get a first turn charge. I could see running a blob of staff priests as Stygies and hoping you get first turn. If you do, you can move them on turn 1 before the charge. Other than that ... the priests look terrible because they can't use the awesome +toHit strategems that skitarii can use. Electropriests remain models that cost as much as space marine veterans but die like brimstones.
EDIT: kataphron destoryers remain terrible. 70 point models that can die to basic bolter/lasgun fire is just a farce. People bring wayyyy too many 'autocannon' type weapons that deal 2 damage for kataphron destroyers to be viable. Especially when you have phosphor blaster kastelons sitting there at 110 points. 2 dakkastelons is almost always more damage than 3 kataphron destroyers now thanks to the ability to first turn double shoot and wrath of mars. However, I am considering bringing 1 min squad of arc rifle breachers just so I can get at the +1 to hit canticle for the robots. The question is whether 3 breachers for 50 points a piece is better than just bringing an additional 110 point robot.
EDIT2: however, I would run staff priests in a brigade as a tax. I would run them as min squads and hide them out of LOS. If the opponent has melee or deepstrike, then they get to play. Otherwise they are just going to get shot against a gunline.
Agreed on Electro-Priests. The shooty ones are okay as Lucius, but risky because you want them to charge.
Destroyers might work with Agripinaa. I still think that's the dark horse army that people don't expect. It's like Tide of Traitors, only with one of the most efficient weapons in the game that can shoot 36". Take the stock setup for more shootiness. The chief problem with Destroyers is that they're glass cannons: great gun, crap durability. So the key is really to set them up last in a flank where the opponent cannot bring all their firepower to bear. As long as your opponent cannot kill them all in one turn, they will not try, creating a sort of pseudo-invincibility. (It also makes cold dice really, really punishing.)
I'm thinking the only army that wants a Brigade is the aforementioned Agripinaa. I would use Servitors as the tax, though I admit it is questionable how much you would want to invest in them. (Plasma gun on something like that is sort of silly. Makes me wish Elimination Volley also used Servitors.)
Ruza Agripnnaa can benefit from destroyerd with a group of robots. Tpd can give reroll ones and with bs3+ both options are legit. Agripnaa would req a bigger unit of destroyerd while ryza can benefit all plasma??
Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.
This may sounds contentious, but I want to explore some use of Rangers + Arc Rifle. It's not great, but for 4 points a Str 6, AP -1 and D3 damage on vehicle, on a 40pt squad - that ain't bad at all.
Either with Styges as a way to help soften transports as they hurtle towards your screens, or with Lucius as something to DS in and put some pressure on light armour if needs be. Hell, they're something effective against MEQ infantry, so you can feel you're getting some mileage out of them aside from being a unit of martyrs...
Wulfey wrote: I remain wholly unconvinced when it comes to giant electropriest blobs. I am not seeing how they deal more damage than deep strike plasma vanguard. Even with deepstrike the staff priests can't reliably get a first turn charge. I could see running a blob of staff priests as Stygies and hoping you get first turn. If you do, you can move them on turn 1 before the charge. Other than that ... the priests look terrible because they can't use the awesome +toHit strategems that skitarii can use. Electropriests remain models that cost as much as space marine veterans but die like brimstones.
EDIT: kataphron destoryers remain terrible. 70 point models that can die to basic bolter/lasgun fire is just a farce. People bring wayyyy too many 'autocannon' type weapons that deal 2 damage for kataphron destroyers to be viable. Especially when you have phosphor blaster kastelons sitting there at 110 points. 2 dakkastelons is almost always more damage than 3 kataphron destroyers now thanks to the ability to first turn double shoot and wrath of mars. However, I am considering bringing 1 min squad of arc rifle breachers just so I can get at the +1 to hit canticle for the robots. The question is whether 3 breachers for 50 points a piece is better than just bringing an additional 110 point robot.
EDIT2: however, I would run staff priests in a brigade as a tax. I would run them as min squads and hide them out of LOS. If the opponent has melee or deepstrike, then they get to play. Otherwise they are just going to get shot against a gunline.
Agreed on Electro-Priests. The shooty ones are okay as Lucius, but risky because you want them to charge.
Destroyers might work with Agripinaa. I still think that's the dark horse army that people don't expect. It's like Tide of Traitors, only with one of the most efficient weapons in the game that can shoot 36". Take the stock setup for more shootiness. The chief problem with Destroyers is that they're glass cannons: great gun, crap durability. So the key is really to set them up last in a flank where the opponent cannot bring all their firepower to bear. As long as your opponent cannot kill them all in one turn, they will not try, creating a sort of pseudo-invincibility. (It also makes cold dice really, really punishing.)
I'm thinking the only army that wants a Brigade is the aforementioned Agripinaa. I would use Servitors as the tax, though I admit it is questionable how much you would want to invest in them. (Plasma gun on something like that is sort of silly. Makes me wish Elimination Volley also used Servitors.)
Maybe the following for plasma destroyers. Let's assume there is LOS blocking terrain and I have some way of getting them out of line of sight for the first turn. The +1 to hit strategem makes them dramatically more reliable. If I run a Mars brigade, a unit of plasmaphons could have a big synergy with my 5 dakkastelons and Cawl.
If I can't assume LOS blocking terrain ... 5 of them can fit into a 100 point bunker. Assuming you get second turn, that should survive and you can walk them out to line up the Cawl/5xDakkastellon/Turn1Doubleshoot/WrathofMars/+1 to hit to both kataphrons and robots mega death punch.
I Have been running some numbers on this actually. Looks like 350 points of plasmprhons overcharging and getting all the bonuses ends up doing worse than 330 points of double shooting dakkastelons, especially if the dakkastelons get wrath of mars. I will try to run some mathhammer of how much that synergy from the strategem gets compared to just running 2 more robots.
I imagine if you had a way to kill commissars effectively the conscript blob itself isn't as big of an issue when it can suffer more than one model of morale loss a turn?
Suzuteo wrote: Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.
I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So I did more calcs. Conscripts are about FOURTEEN times more durable than priests. Yuck
Well, we still have 3 months before conscripts are nerfed into the ground by Chapter Approved right, what GW is trying to tell us is "pretend conscripts are servitors and take them in your army to make up for the lazy Codex Mechanicus"
rvd1ofakind wrote: So I did more calcs. Conscripts are about FOURTEEN times more durable than priests. Yuck
Well, we still have 3 months before conscripts are nerfed into the ground by Chapter Approved right, what GW is trying to tell us is "pretend conscripts are servitors and take them in your army to make up for the lazy Codex Mechanicus"
The IG/AM Codex is due out before then. So we may see some changes before CA lands in December.
Suzuteo wrote: Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.
I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.
Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.
They should have switched the dogma with the stratagem.
A unit armed with some kind of Plasma sword or melee plasma cutter to double up on the Ryza bonuses would have been nice.
Suzuteo wrote: Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.
I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.
Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.
They should have switched the dogma with the stratagem.
A unit armed with some kind of Plasma sword or melee plasma cutter to double up on the Ryza bonuses would have been nice.
Switching the two doesn't make sense. GW wanted the Chapter Tactics equivalents to be as army wide as possible, which they did succeed in. Issue with Ryza is nothing entirely clicks together.
I dont care to see conscripts nerfed i dont they never bothered me and i used infantry usually to remain close to ad mech as possible. Mortars and 100 plasma shots i care of. Mortal will need a point increase or remove the non los .
The game is not only 2 k points. So in lower point games where destroyerscan be valuable as troops and arty agripnaa is lethal same as ryza. A full plasma army for ryza or a big destroyer unit for agripnaa are combinations good enough for many games. Even as suplement armies. 2 robots always a way to keep damage up.
I think deetoyersand robots with 3+ bs and tpd reroll ones is a v v good choise if no Cawl or mars . Didnt say its the best but a choise. Fortifications still help with these combinations. Ryza buffsmelee as well for a complete solo low points dogma. Its good for what it is. And maybe if you make it work for 1000-1500 points you can build with lucius stygia for more. Maybe.
With out some testing atm Mars seems easy to be build as list pre codex with a bit more robots less icarus and any other option stygia being a smart combination of options. Use inf in any unit you ll need while keep the units you want at tne back for mars. Personally i can see only ad mech army lists if you remain calm znd fill fhe gaps with low point options. A batt with 2 engiseer and 3 rangers will provide +3 cp for 224 . Its a start id use one vanguard and one tpd as default giving some options. Same goes for ark. So you could make an elite batt for so e reason with tpd engiseer 2* rangers and 1 * vang plasma 350 ish and its not bad teamed with amdragoon or onager for data tether. I usually take units of moral/model/ unit. So a 7-8 moral troop can go to 7-8 size. If you want the extra heavy on 10 mans id suggest with more durable dogmas. Graia provides the 6+ not slain for shooting melee moral and got a gem for anti psych. There are options but
Large full groups of infantry all kinds are for planned situations. So if you take 10-20 priests better have them supportedmeither from dogma or gems. Same goes for 10 man troops. A full vanguard plasma unit needs hq near and a purpose.
We got the best sniper in the game. I used 4 groups in an apocal game. Atm 97 poimts /5 with omnisp. And the result on chars was incedible. As we have seen how games evolve id try them out can be extremely valuable teamed up with jezz or assasins or just 2-4 groups. Killing the sunapse nid or the commisar or any valuadle easy kill char is priceless and has nothing to do with points. If commisar dies then no leadership no moral invunerable etc. Things can go really bad for char based armies. You got 60" 7 -2 bla bla gun . I even used it to kill a last wound on dark eldar lance vehicles in a game. Its a serious gun the rangers keep deep strikes from sides or back and got a 30 range to support your lines. Its good enoough. Try it.
interviglium wrote: Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.
I almost did Ryza but the Orange was too intimidating for me. It honestly sucks that anyone that went with a Canon forgeworld other than mars has to choose between following the "fluffy" doctrina or the powerful one. I went with my own custom scheme but it looks like I'll still be mars at the end of the day.
I like your paint job . And i have done my army customed colored as well. There are tranfer sheets you can mark any units with initials of forgeworlds and keep any color you like. I use forge world small banners to seperate my units while i retain my custom colors and had no problemin any tour ever. Nor most importantly ruin any of my fun in creatingmy army. Only Cawl i painted a bit more redish since he is named. Rest is my army and as long as you got a way to mark different dogmas and fellow players are sure they wont be cheated nothing else matters.
Paint an L in you onager and its from lucius etc. Small to repaint if need. Pick the 7th edition codex and check the symbols if you like and in a hurry. If your wierd you can also paint smaller part close to dogmas if thats the case.
Tip : dragoons we talked about extensivelly prior of codex . I believe they need to be in units of 2. And since you ll be taking them up field i suggest detachments like.
Suzuteo wrote: Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.
I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.
Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.
They should have switched the dogma with the stratagem.
A unit armed with some kind of Plasma sword or melee plasma cutter to double up on the Ryza bonuses would have been nice.
Switching the two doesn't make sense. GW wanted the Chapter Tactics equivalents to be as army wide as possible, which they did succeed in. Issue with Ryza is nothing entirely clicks together.
With the exception of Metallica, who do have a weapon specific dogma.
I just find that with the toolbox Ad Mech has, it would feel more natural to build a list around Kataphrons and plasma vanguard than around a melee bonus.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: This may sounds contentious, but I want to explore some use of Rangers + Arc Rifle. It's not great, but for 4 points a Str 6, AP -1 and D3 damage on vehicle, on a 40pt squad - that ain't bad at all.
Either with Styges as a way to help soften transports as they hurtle towards your screens, or with Lucius as something to DS in and put some pressure on light armour if needs be. Hell, they're something effective against MEQ infantry, so you can feel you're getting some mileage out of them aside from being a unit of martyrs...
You are not wrong on the rangers and Arc Rifle. The Ark rifle is an awesome weapon. Its just garbage at hurting vehicles. Use it on medium and light infantry. If I don't run my rangers with snipers, I always give them arcs.
That being said, I keep seeing this all over the place that conscripts are borken. And I don't know why; there are four Imperial soup lists and two IG players other than myself who play in our local casual and in our competitive local tournies. And in no game have they ever seemed broken. Its not their base stat as a sometimes Ork player and often Nid player, (I use grots and guants as my screens) their costs are about what they should be, and their moral is not the issue as Orks and Nids have better moral handling (nids being wholly fearless). So I assume it must be the orders of FRFSRF, but even then in the games I see and play in, their Crap BS is not particularly useful. Just useful enough to cause damage to some models due to sheer volly fire. Which is what they are supposed to do.
The most difficult thing I can imagine for conscritps is a full blob, with 2 priests, 2 commisars, 2 officers and 2 psykers giving them buffs. But with that much investment, they are by no means cheap... I say two as Guard characters are laughably easy to kill; I fight and play as Guard and they are easy targets to snipers.
Can someone give me a credible and clear reason why they think conscripts are the most over powered unit in the game? I see gaunts to be much better in just about every way but I never hear people complaining my gaunts are OP when I bring 120 of them on the table. (Yes I do have quite a bit of them.... I was a 3rd edition swarmer and never gave it up over the years).
My Conscripts unit. A patrol Detachment with a Skitarii Company Commander, Enginseer Commissar and thirty Tech-Thralls as the Conscripts. Points total is 150. The end plan is to add these to three units of Tempestus Scions and a Tempestor Prime along with Greyfax to make a 500 point Battalion Detachment that will combine with a 1350 point gun line.
Yoda79 wrote: I
Tip : dragoons we talked about extensivelly prior of codex . I believe they need to be in units of 2. And since you ll be taking them up field i suggest detachments like.
I really think the unit should have at least 3 Dragoons in order to be versatile enough to use the +2 in melee stratagem. I wouldnt use a CP on a 2 Dragoon unit. On a 3 Dragoon unit, I certainly would.
Valid yes issues though. Space and charges are hard with 3 dragoons i understand what you say and i agree but we have talked about it.decide id like also balistarii on large groups and generally with current gems all skitarii wouod benefit from larger groups but lets not forget roles. What you plan to do with 3 dragoons 204 points that two wont do. Cause so far if played stygia units of two are better for defence screener obj cap less as assault than 3 but...even if know you gonna assault the each game no matter what new question rises. Why dragoons then. Their multi role is the key and cheapish points. If you take 2"3 grouos then the investment need to be commpared to other options.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: This may sounds contentious, but I want to explore some use of Rangers + Arc Rifle. It's not great, but for 4 points a Str 6, AP -1 and D3 damage on vehicle, on a 40pt squad - that ain't bad at all.
Either with Styges as a way to help soften transports as they hurtle towards your screens, or with Lucius as something to DS in and put some pressure on light armour if needs be. Hell, they're something effective against MEQ infantry, so you can feel you're getting some mileage out of them aside from being a unit of martyrs...
You are not wrong on the rangers and Arc Rifle. The Ark rifle is an awesome weapon. Its just garbage at hurting vehicles. Use it on medium and light infantry. If I don't run my rangers with snipers, I always give them arcs.
That being said, I keep seeing this all over the place that conscripts are borken. And I don't know why; there are four Imperial soup lists and two IG players other than myself who play in our local casual and in our competitive local tournies. And in no game have they ever seemed broken. Its not their base stat as a sometimes Ork player and often Nid player, (I use grots and guants as my screens) their costs are about what they should be, and their moral is not the issue as Orks and Nids have better moral handling (nids being wholly fearless). So I assume it must be the orders of FRFSRF, but even then in the games I see and play in, their Crap BS is not particularly useful. Just useful enough to cause damage to some models due to sheer volly fire. Which is what they are supposed to do.
The most difficult thing I can imagine for conscritps is a full blob, with 2 priests, 2 commisars, 2 officers and 2 psykers giving them buffs. But with that much investment, they are by no means cheap... I say two as Guard characters are laughably easy to kill; I fight and play as Guard and they are easy targets to snipers.
Can someone give me a credible and clear reason why they think conscripts are the most over powered unit in the game? I see gaunts to be much better in just about every way but I never hear people complaining my gaunts are OP when I bring 120 of them on the table. (Yes I do have quite a bit of them.... I was a 3rd edition swarmer and never gave it up over the years).
it's a combination of things. with commissars and 200 conscripts no body can really deal enough damage to physically remove you from the board enough to physically get to the objectives.
but it's not just the guard and conscripts themselves it's the wyverns with stormshard mortars and manticores with the stormeagle rockets these can be placed out of line of site and bombard a gunline an dyou can't physically move thanks to the giant blob to a place where you can actually attack them, you can't deestrike in thanks to the giant blob and if the stormshard mortars don't kill you theres 200 guard on the table doing FRFSRF.
I think removing the out of line of site of the stormshard mortar and stormeagle rockets would go a long way to removing this feeling of brokenness.
at least this is how it's been described to me by the players i've run into who play against it. in my area we have a handful of guard players and two are mechanized cadian and one is a mostly deepstrike scions army backed up with leman russses.
Yoda79 wrote: Valid yes issues though. Space and charges are hard with 3 dragoons i understand what you say and i agree but we have talked about it.decide id like also balistarii on large groups and generally with current gems all skitarii wouod benefit from larger groups but lets not forget roles. What you plan to do with 3 dragoons 204 points that two wont do. Cause so far if played stygia units of two are better for defence screener obj cap less as assault than 3 but...even if know you gonna assault the each game no matter what new question rises. Why dragoons then. Their multi role is the key and cheapish points. If you take 2"3 grouos then the investment need to be commpared to other options.
Well I have been toying around with an idea like this:
Mars Spearhead: Cawl, 4 Dakkastelans, 10 Infiltrators, 2 Icarus Onager; Stygies Battalion: 2 Enginseer, 3 Vanguard; Stygies Outrider: Enginseer, Dragoon, Dragoon, 3 Dragoons.
So we got 8 CP. Now whats important is is the pressure one can make turn one. Ill have 3 Vanguard troops and 2 lonely Dragoons for screening, the big Dragoon unit in reserve. Possible to screen with it as well to deploy it very offensively. 3 Dragoons with Stratagem to explode the Tasers should be enough to kill a Razorback on the Charge. 2 wont do it. Dropping INfiltrators with wrath of mars can clear the way with support of dakkastelans. This investement might be too large, I can see that. But a 3 pack of Dragoons is able to attack transports and lets say mid-heavy tanks while 2 wont cut it. There are a hell of a lot of Rhinos und Razorbacks on the table atm and Dragoons, thanks to stratagems and -1Ap are finally able not only to harrass but to kill them and of curse pile into something that is standing by.
The question is if this would be a viable strategy or if it would be enough to go a little lighter on dragoons to save up points.
"Played a game with new Ad Mech woooooow!! So impressed. Bat rep hitting YouTube in a few days #wh40k" - InControl (aka guy who got 1st with WarCon on ... War Con >_> Suspiiiiiicious)
Anyway, that's a good sign, right?
The guy is an amazing player tactically. For example, he beat a Daemon summoning list by moving Biovores, so they would miss more and showered the enemy summoners with mines. Not a single unit was summoned until like turn 4. 1000 vs 2000 army. Pretty good
rvd1ofakind wrote: "Played a game with new Ad Mech woooooow!! So impressed. Bat rep hitting YouTube in a few days #wh40k" - InControl (aka guy who got 1st with WarCon on ... War Con >_> Suspiiiiiicious)
Anyway, that's a good sign, right?
The guy is an amazing player tactically. For example, he beat a Daemon summoning list by moving Biovores, so they would miss more and showered the enemy summoners with mines. Not a single unit was summoned until like turn 4. 1000 vs 2000 army. Pretty good
Great player and cool dude. I am keen to see what he did there.
Yoda79 wrote: Valid yes issues though. Space and charges are hard with 3 dragoons i understand what you say and i agree but we have talked about it.decide id like also balistarii on large groups and generally with current gems all skitarii wouod benefit from larger groups but lets not forget roles. What you plan to do with 3 dragoons 204 points that two wont do. Cause so far if played stygia units of two are better for defence screener obj cap less as assault than 3 but...even if know you gonna assault the each game no matter what new question rises. Why dragoons then. Their multi role is the key and cheapish points. If you take 2"3 grouos then the investment need to be commpared to other options.
Well I have been toying around with an idea like this:
Mars Spearhead: Cawl, 4 Dakkastelans, 10 Infiltrators, 2 Icarus Onager; Stygies Battalion: 2 Enginseer, 3 Vanguard; Stygies Outrider: Enginseer, Dragoon, Dragoon, 3 Dragoons.
So we got 8 CP. Now whats important is is the pressure one can make turn one. Ill have 3 Vanguard troops and 2 lonely Dragoons for screening, the big Dragoon unit in reserve. Possible to screen with it as well to deploy it very offensively. 3 Dragoons with Stratagem to explode the Tasers should be enough to kill a Razorback on the Charge. 2 wont do it. Dropping INfiltrators with wrath of mars can clear the way with support of dakkastelans. This investement might be too large, I can see that. But a 3 pack of Dragoons is able to attack transports and lets say mid-heavy tanks while 2 wont cut it. There are a hell of a lot of Rhinos und Razorbacks on the table atm and Dragoons, thanks to stratagems and -1Ap are finally able not only to harrass but to kill them and of curse pile into something that is standing by.
The question is if this would be a viable strategy or if it would be enough to go a little lighter on dragoons to save up points.
Ok my advice. You dont need so many. Stygia is a dogma you use if you dont know what you want inflitrate vs each enemy. That said id make it.
1) low anti heavy armor pen. Thats why we going for neutron onagers. Icarus you wont need and if you really face a superior air use gem to buff +2 neutronagers and kill them. Even 4+ reroll with Cawl is enough. No need icarus with mars.
2) if you going to use 10 inflitr. Then id suggest an hq with omnic mask. So my stygia would be outrider 1*2-2 dragoons 1 balistarii 1 balistarii within stygia you can keep the 2 balistarii as screener same as dragoon. Or just use 1*3 dragoon single with out outrider.
3) Graia battalion is better and use 2* rangers 1* vanguard. Tpd grai warlord can take +1 cp and you troops screener can even deny pshych. Do not forget the exploding gem on defensive balistarii.
4) since you gonna land 10 inflitrators team them up with the omnicient mask tpd and the 1*3 dragoon unit and get advantage of the canticles.
I where you i would create a brigade since you got all units that you need. Even if you have to run the dragoons by foot adding 1 tpd stygia with mask and dragoons. 13 cp would do the plan better.
I havent calc the points but seems more comoetitive since even if you spamm 2 command for wrath all turns only being abke to do so is immence.
5) As you have it Mars spearhad stygia outrider Graia batt. With 1 dominus 1* engiseer. Tpd +1 cp warlord total 9 cp -2 for inflitrate tpd and dragoons 7 for use. Im afraid as iv said focused plans work better in our ad mech since all our options inside gems.
Mars with 2* bare battalions will net 10 cp only use wrath and walk dragoons would perform better and more competitive. Take 2 units infiltrators. Or 1 tech priest aux lucius for deep strike buff if need. Cawl with only so few heavies not worth it . And to be honest where you gonna spend thcps?? Wrath inflitrate rerolls buffing skitarii? Its designed not to be able to do much thats why it sucks. One unitmcan get the gem / phase and large units we cant have wince we dont have cheap ones to build detachments. Im afraid 2* battalions 300 points each is mandqtory so -600 points then build a plan with 1400.
Ok my advice. You dont need so many. Stygia is a dogma you use if you dont know what you want inflitrate vs each enemy. That said id make it.
1) low anti heavy armor pen. Thats why we going for neutron onagers. Icarus you wont need and if you really face a superior air use gem to buff +2 neutronagers and kill them. Even 4+ reroll with Cawl is enough. No need icarus with mars.
2) if you going to use 10 inflitr. Then id suggest an hq with omnic mask. So my stygia would be outrider 1*2-2 dragoons 1 balistarii 1 balistarii within stygia you can keep the 2 balistarii as screener same as dragoon. Or just use 1*3 dragoon single with out outrider.
3) Graia battalion is better and use 2* rangers 1* vanguard. Tpd grai warlord can take +1 cp and you troops screener can even deny pshych. Do not forget the exploding gem on defensive balistarii.
4) since you gonna land 10 inflitrators team them up with the omnicient mask tpd and the 1*3 dragoon unit and get advantage of the canticles.
I where you i would create a brigade since you got all units that you need. Even if you have to run the dragoons by foot adding 1 tpd stygia with mask and dragoons. 13 cp would do the plan better.
I havent calc the points but seems more comoetitive since even if you spamm 2 command for wrath all turns only being abke to do so is immence.
5) As you have it Mars spearhad stygia outrider Graia batt. With 1 dominus 1* engiseer. Tpd +1 cp warlord total 9 cp -2 for inflitrate tpd and dragoons 7 for use. Im afraid as iv said focused plans work better in our ad mech since all our options inside gems.
Mars with 2* bare battalions will net 10 cp only use wrath and walk dragoons would perform better and more competitive. Take 2 units infiltrators. Or 1 tech priest aux lucius for deep strike buff if need. Cawl with only so few heavies not worth it . And to be honest where you gonna spend thcps?? Wrath inflitrate rerolls buffing skitarii? Its designed not to be able to do much thats why it sucks. One unitmcan get the gem / phase and large units we cant have wince we dont have cheap ones to build detachments. Im afraid 2* battalions 300 points each is mandqtory so -600 points then build a plan with 1400.
1. Sounds about right. I am all in favor of Neutrons but in this case there was a slight points issue since we only play 1850.
2. Yes I am on your side when it comes to the omniscient mask. Though I wouldnt put it on a TPD but a (if he has to be) dropping Enginseer. A dropping TPD is a huge problem. Yes he gives rerolling 1s but what are CPs and Canticles for? He will die rather quicky depenidng on the enemy.
3. Graia as a screen is better against first turn charges and psychic, very true. The 1 CP is a great thing to have and might be more valuable in this list. Sad that we cant have two Arcanas 4. Brigade sounds nice but its way too expensive points wise and plus there goes the flexibility.
5. As stated, no 2 Arcana Mechanicum. But it kept me thinking if the dropping mask is worth it for "just" 10 infiltrators and 2 dragoons in range. there are canticles as well.
6. So few heavies? Since we need rerolls on our heavies and Cawl is only 115 points more than a TPD I dont see anys reason to change that. But yeah, wrath of mars for Kastelans and Infiltrators (so potentially 4 CP gone), 1 CP for Dakkastelans to change protocol, depending on the situation maybe paying 1 CP for not getting -1 cause they moved, stygies
drops 2, +1 or +2 for skitarii in melee and/or shooting which are another 1-3 CP, deny the witch,...there are so many ways to burn through CPs^^
rvd1ofakind wrote: "Played a game with new Ad Mech woooooow!! So impressed. Bat rep hitting YouTube in a few days #wh40k" - InControl (aka guy who got 1st with WarCon on ... War Con >_> Suspiiiiiicious)
Anyway, that's a good sign, right?
The guy is an amazing player tactically. For example, he beat a Daemon summoning list by moving Biovores, so they would miss more and showered the enemy summoners with mines. Not a single unit was summoned until like turn 4. 1000 vs 2000 army. Pretty good
Yeah. I don't see why people are disappointed in the codex. Not everything is useful, but the stuff that is useful is very strong. We just got huge value added in both shooting power and durability.
Also, looks like InControl is also a fan of Taser Dragoons:
"Melee dragoons are legit"
Seems like virtually everyone who plays AdMech except one certain person thinks so.
Oh, I definitelly see why people are disappointed: no new units, points pretty much didn't change, rules pretty much didn't change, Knights aren't AdMech: they don't re-roll with cawl/dominus, they don't get Canticles (normally), they get repaired by only 1 wound, they don't get any cool new rules
Points got a huge change with the Enginseer and Skitarii. Sure, Servitors and Kataphrons didn't get the point drop that they needed, but Dragoons got a buff.
I am very sad about my Knights not getting much synergy (aside from spamming the Rotate Ion Shield stratagem). But I am consoled by the fact that I can deal massive mortal wounds and that my army is somehow more Raven Guard than Raven Guard.
I m mad with this crap codex. The fact i saw changes for mobility survive and versatile made me even more pissed. Cause i realise they know exactly what the problems are.
And yes they did gave some of the 7th flavor back for skitarii since they where really bad they keep no synergy between oour detachemnts.
We got tow kataphrons not a third we got 2 priests not a third option we got 2 hq not a third we got 2 sicarans etc. Not allowing us any option for detafments to build up cps or have a plan.
Ok fluff ok balance but not nice to have 2 hq. Why didnt they make datasmith hq with options on gear and engiseer a 30 ish hq since it sucks
No skitarii alpha . And even if that was not enough and we are mistaken about it paying 50 more euro on top of 20 index for nhing really knew not even knights complete not even ad mech complete its stupid. Yes we support the game we pay plastic but now we are not brainless chickens to pay one new picture and a rewritte of am index sorry no. We where w8ing from the 7th tmcombine synergise become an army and we still not one. If you take priests other buffs expenwive one same goes for skitarii. Gems benefit large groups but we dont have cheap ones to benefit from it. Its v v squishyand really stupid to begin with.
Some old flavor sure but his codex suppose to be our way of play. Qnd competitive and fluff vs other armies. We are not. Got a warth of mars buff rest wontnsynergise or wont have points for it.
3 cps priest play again 1-3 cp extra relics 2 hq options engiseer dead w8 not even datasmith stats same cost. Etc etc 12 warlord traits great Cawl cant get nothig from gear. Its just so meh. Again compet. Robots onagers maybe 1-2 less form unit or hq but thats it. V v bad. Not o mention costs arc being 6 str. Etc. I just dont get it. And all others got options with transports fliers mobility 10 hq buffs bla bla gear change want expensive want cheap. Its sad. For a t3 army
Points got a huge change with the Enginseer and Skitarii. Sure, Servitors and Kataphrons didn't get the point drop that they needed, but Dragoons got a buff.
I am very sad about my Knights not getting much synergy (aside from spamming the Rotate Ion Shield stratagem). But I am consoled by the fact that I can deal massive mortal wounds and that my army is somehow more Raven Guard than Raven Guard.
Enginseer didn't get a pts change.
Kataphrons were very important to us and now it is as if GW said "They belong in the trashcan"
Also, I really dislike almost all warlord traits and relics(especially the weapon ones. They are terrible)
Raven guard has 100 options with gear hq etc. Tau as we look like with stygia can synergise. They got some things they can min max. We still play better witn battalions of ig for cps and Cawlwall. I want adeptus mechanicus army playable options to play diffent style. We dont have the units even we dont have a third option nowhere
Points got a huge change with the Enginseer and Skitarii. Sure, Servitors and Kataphrons didn't get the point drop that they needed, but Dragoons got a buff.
I am very sad about my Knights not getting much synergy (aside from spamming the Rotate Ion Shield stratagem). But I am consoled by the fact that I can deal massive mortal wounds and that my army is somehow more Raven Guard than Raven Guard.
Enginseer didn't get a pts change.
Kataphrons were very important to us and now it is as if GW said "They belong in the trashcan"
Also, I really dislike almost all warlord traits and relics(especially the weapon ones. They are terrible)
I meant the cheap HQ inherently changes the point structures of our armies. I consider that a points change--indirect, I'll admit.
I do wish that one of the Forge Worlds (probably Agripinaa) just flat out had huge bonuses that only applied to Servitors and Kataphrons. A sort of AdMech servitor/zombie army would have been cool. I guess all these missed opportunities is frustrating...
Considering the best warlord trait before was Inspiring Leader, and now it's Necromechanic, I'd say it's a huge improvement. Static Psalm-Code, Emotionless Clarity, and Ordered Efficiency are all pretty good. Magos Biologis and Xenarite Studies are also situationally good.
The weapons aren't bad as much as they aren't as good as Autocaduceus. I mean, I did the numbers a few days ago, and Volkite Blaster + Phosphoenix + Xenarite Studies is a pretty good option against something like Tyranids or Orks. (Setting up your HQs to do CC in a tide-heavy metagame is useful.)
Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works
I forget but the ability use master of machines twice, even on the same unit. And also another ability, i forget if it's relic or warlord trait that adds an additional wound to repairs. Can those two be combined? If they're not both warlord traits or both relics or both on difference <forge-world> specific relic/traits then you could heal a knight for 4 wounds a turn.
You could also heal a Land raider for the same amount with Cawl. Or an admech dune crawler for 8 wounds per turn! or two crawlers or robots for 4 wounds each...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually without relics and warlord traits how many wounds can a tech priest heal on a knight? Because it already takes a lost to. Sing down knights
gendoikari87 wrote: Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works
Strawman.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Octovol wrote: I forget but the ability use master of machines twice, even on the same unit. And also another ability, i forget if it's relic or warlord trait that adds an additional wound to repairs. Can those two be combined? If they're not both warlord traits or both relics or both on difference <forge-world> specific relic/traits then you could heal a knight for 4 wounds a turn.
You could also heal a Land raider for the same amount with Cawl. Or an admech dune crawler for 8 wounds per turn! or two crawlers or robots for 4 wounds each...
There is a 1CP Tech-Adept Strategem that lets you repair twice, even on the same unit. And are you thinking of Necromechanic, bumping your repair up by 1 each use.
The only issue here is that you aren't doing it with Cawl, because he has the mandatory Static Psalm-Code trait and let's be real, Cawl is the best HQ we have. So, it would be a bit gimmicky to push the repair aspects, especially when you have to blow CP, which we have precious few of.
My friend recently bought a Malanthrope and Stonecrusher Carnifexes. I can't seem to beat them, what would be a decent strategy to kill them? I assumed putting lots of shots on them before they closed in would work, but it hasn't been.
Cawl is named char cant have relics he has already enough on him. So might wanna look elsewhere. Still the engiseers are overpriced and bad unit compared from datasmith to all other armies. He sucks and he is expensive with no gear . Why they didnt scale datasmith hq and hima cheap 30 ish option eludes me. This codex seriously is stupid designed for this game meta. Not to begin with the cost of deep strike units and dogma while other got 100 points rapid plasma drop with hq. Not to begin about destoyers bs4+ d6 shots not even 3-6 shots 200+ troop for 4+ go figure. And the known issues we gotta pay with cpevery single option with 2 hq. Dont understand really. I dont. Faq still nowhere to be seen or heard of.
Octovol wrote: I forget but the ability use master of machines twice, even on the same unit. And also another ability, i forget if it's relic or warlord trait that adds an additional wound to repairs. Can those two be combined? If they're not both warlord traits or both relics or both on difference <forge-world> specific relic/traits then you could heal a knight for 4 wounds a turn.
You could also heal a Land raider for the same amount with Cawl. Or an admech dune crawler for 8 wounds per turn! or two crawlers or robots for 4 wounds each...
There is a 1CP Tech-Adept Strategem that lets you repair twice, even on the same unit. And are you thinking of Necromechanic, bumping your repair up by 1 each use.
The only issue here is that you aren't doing it with Cawl, because he has the mandatory Static Psalm-Code trait and let's be real, Cawl is the best HQ we have. So, it would be a bit gimmicky to push the repair aspects, especially when you have to blow CP, which we have precious few of.
Yeah i just looked it up you're right. Those of us not using Cawl however have the option to spend 1CP and repair 4 wounds on two admech models each. Makes your warlord a huge target but then, it's always a target anyway lol. Also potentially almost fully restores a duncrawler. Granted without spending CP you could still heal 4 wounds. Of all warlord traits available to me as a non-Cawl user, that seems like a pretty good one. I'm also seriously considering Monitor Malevolus, roll a 6 any time anyone uses a strategm and thats 1 more CP in my bank.
So with rainment of the technomartyr a full set of six kastelans is shooty 128 shots on average in overwatch. That's
18 wounds on meq 35 on geq 28 orks
This is with agrapinaa. So you'd need to keep them all alive. But there's not much that can charge these things. a full unit of cultists 40 models or conscripts does it. But what is regularly fielded that can do it? Thinking tyrannid armies maybe guard and cultists but orks might struggle. Just need a way to keep them safe from shooting.
Oh, quick question: When you field Cawl, does he have to be your Warlord? Because if not then fielding Cawl automatically gives you a second warlord trait on another character model given he already has the +3" aura range trait.
Yes but both and more are warlord traits. Only one. Haha once again this codex with 12 warlord traits or someone does not know we can take one or thwy are still laughing
First, it is 108. Second, unless I'm wrong, it works like the Chaos anti-imperium ability. So you need to hit overwatch (on a 6 only) and then you need to hit again (on a 6 only).
Unless you mean with the 5+ to hit on overwatch FW
rvd1ofakind wrote: First, it is 108. Second, unless I'm wrong, it works like the Chaos anti-imperium ability. So you need to hit overwatch (on a 6 only) and then you need to hit again (on a 6 only)
right 108 of which 1/6 are 6 so 18 additional shots 108+18=126
Obviously that's an average but still
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also you can only do this with one unit of kastelans most likely as it is models within 6" of the character
Well those 18 still hit on a 6, right? So the artifact only adds 3 total hits.
So 21 hits
Or 42 hits if you have the 5+ FW. Also if there is a model within 6'' (the dude with the artifact), you can just charge him and consolidate into Kastelans
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well those 18 still hit on a 6, right? So the artifact only adds 3 total hits
nope you only get them on a six it just gives you extra attacks which go off as normal at least that's how the summary reads. So you get your normal overwatch bs.
Also charging the character without chargpthe kastelans should be impossible if you don't place your models like an idiot
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well those 18 still hit on a 6, right? So the artifact only adds 3 total hits
nope you only get them on a six it just gives you extra attacks which go off as normal at least that's how the summary reads. So you get your normal overwatch bs.
Nowhere does it say that the bonus attacks are resolved at the normal BS. So as the whole attack is overwatch, you must assume that it is only on 6 (or 5+). Either way, it's only a difference from 3 to 9 hits. Meh.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well those 18 still hit on a 6, right? So the artifact only adds 3 total hits
nope you only get them on a six it just gives you extra attacks which go off as normal at least that's how the summary reads. So you get your normal overwatch bs.
Nowhere does it say that the bonus attacks are resolved at the normal BS. So as the whole attack is overwatch, you must assume that it is only on 6 (or 5+)
which overwatch is modified by the fw dogma so 5+ not 6+
Either way, seems like a bad gimmick that a good player would exploit through charge/pile in shananigans. Like hiding behind the transport/terrain and charging so you don't have the LoS
I mean you can try to charge the character but you aren't going to make the charge so long as you don't place the neutronagers that close they can't charge anything else and consolidate/pile into it
Well that's highly situational as well as there are plenty of transports coming at you and I'm sure some will make it to you. And the table should have a lot of LoS blocking terrain for a good 8th game.
Also this assumes no Cawl, so the other guy can just ignore them as they don't do nearly as much without Cawl
rvd1ofakind wrote: Either way, seems like a bad gimmick that a good player would exploit through charge/pile in shananigans. Like hiding behind the transport/terrain and charging so you don't have the LoS
Yep. Really isn't worth deviating from the good Forge Worlds just to get a boosted Overwatch. That is too much like planning to fail and let the opponent get close. I'd rather go Mars and Stygies and take the fight to the opponent.
And yea, charging from behind a tank is rude stuff. You also can just charge in with a tank and hope it survives and locks those Kastelans up, so the melee unit can get in there and do work.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Either way, seems like a bad gimmick that a good player would exploit through charge/pile in shananigans. Like hiding behind the transport/terrain and charging so you don't have the LoS
Yep. Really isn't worth deviating from the good Forge Worlds just to get a boosted Overwatch. That is too much like planning to fail and let the opponent get close. I'd rather go Mars and Stygies and take the fight to the opponent.
And yea, charging from behind a tank is rude stuff. You also can just charge in with a tank and hope it survives and locks those Kastelans up, so the melee unit can get in there and do work.
Wait, why is that rude xD
I'd say that's really smart :p
I try to do the no LoS charges whenever I can, they're great.
"Oh no, necron Immortal overwatch. Oh how convenient, I have this Slaanesh Herald that can just stand in this corner and charge in with no overwatch"
rvd1ofakind wrote: Either way, seems like a bad gimmick that a good player would exploit through charge/pile in shananigans. Like hiding behind the transport/terrain and charging so you don't have the LoS
Yep. Really isn't worth deviating from the good Forge Worlds just to get a boosted Overwatch. That is too much like planning to fail and let the opponent get close. I'd rather go Mars and Stygies and take the fight to the opponent.
And yea, charging from behind a tank is rude stuff. You also can just charge in with a tank and hope it survives and locks those Kastelans up, so the melee unit can get in there and do work.
Wait, why is that rude xD
I'd say that's really smart :p
I try to do the no LoS charges whenever I can, they're great.
"Oh no, necron Immortal overwatch. Oh how convenient, I have this Slaanesh Herald that can just stand in this corner and charge in with no overwatch"
The idea that you need LoS on someone who will be running at you seems like a rules oversight. It is a smart tactic, but to me feels not in the spirit of the game.
Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary
Automatically Appended Next Post: I disagree. It has been confirmed multiple times that no LoS charges are a thing and a tactical decision. It goes hand in hand with charging out of flamer range to avoid the flamers.
gendoikari87 wrote: Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works
Quit saying Tactical Marines are worth anything. Any Marine player worth their stuff could tell you how bad they are. They're garbage. They could be 12 points and I'd still take Scouts over them. They could be the same price and I'd still take Scouts solely for deployment and equipment options.
You didn't even know about Paladins > Grey Knight Terminators. Why would we listen to you on Tactical Marines, when we got Marine players here (myself included) that can tell you every single thing wrong with them?
You can charge from behind the transport but charging the the transport itself is risky until the character charges in because even hitting on 5 and wounding on 5 that's still 9.33 unsaved wounds average so something like a rhino would likely not make it if it has a wound or two on it.
If you really wanted to make this work go a marine faction with re rolls to charge on the warlord and stick them behind a rhino or two that isn't charging or charges after the commander. Then stick a hammer on him
gendoikari87 wrote: Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works
Quit saying Tactical Marines are worth anything. Any Marine player worth their stuff could tell you how bad they are. They're garbage. They could be 12 points and I'd still take Scouts over them. They could be the same price and I'd still take Scouts solely for deployment and equipment options.
You didn't even know about Paladins > Grey Knight Terminators. Why would we listen to you on Tactical Marines, when we got Marine players here (myself included) that can tell you every single thing wrong with them?
dude gw bases the game around the basic marine. It will never be gak or amazing. It will always be the bog standard unit by which everything is measured because they have to be good enough to always take while not being so good you won't take other things. That's how gw operates.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary
Automatically Appended Next Post: I disagree. It has been confirmed multiple times that no LoS charges are a thing and a tactical decision. It goes hand in hand with charging out of flamer range to avoid the flamers.
Feel free to disagree, but it is clearly a mechanics oversight. The range of flamers was not an oversight - it was meant to make the charge more risk/reward, plus flamers have short range and always have. But are you telling me that a guy running at you from behind a tank can't be shot because he started out behind a tank? That is dumb and is 100% because of the timing when Overwatch triggers, not because it makes any sense.
Also, as for the InControl thing - why? Why bring two Battalions? No Dragoons? Priests Auxiliary!? Wtf is this?
gendoikari87 wrote: Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works
Quit saying Tactical Marines are worth anything. Any Marine player worth their stuff could tell you how bad they are. They're garbage. They could be 12 points and I'd still take Scouts over them. They could be the same price and I'd still take Scouts solely for deployment and equipment options.
You didn't even know about Paladins > Grey Knight Terminators. Why would we listen to you on Tactical Marines, when we got Marine players here (myself included) that can tell you every single thing wrong with them?
Ignore him. He pretty much always gives awful advice.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary
Automatically Appended Next Post: I disagree. It has been confirmed multiple times that no LoS charges are a thing and a tactical decision. It goes hand in hand with charging out of flamer range to avoid the flamers.
makes a pretty visual. Character leaping out from behind a transport into a unit
rvd1ofakind wrote: /shrug
It is the first list he made on the fly I think
Either way, would you actually complain about the no LoS charge? It is RAW and RAI as confirmed by GW and FLG multiple times
I wouldn't in game. It is just my personal opinion that it isn't in the spirit of the game. It is clearly RAW and I am not sure it is RAI, but it doesn't mean I won't honor it. Just part of the abstract nature of a game.
And my first go-to list was more put-together than that! Has some weird choices, for sure.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary.
Hmm while I do like that build, it's a 4 cp build. The first is a patrol detachment, one HQ, the second is battalion, third is aux. that's a net gain of two, minus one to deepstrike the priests. I think I'll need more cp than that in my armies, and the list doesn't have room for another HQ. Could drop the data smith for a tech priest, he may have thought datasmiths were HQ.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary.
Hmm while I do like that build, it's a 4 cp build. The first is a patrol detachment, one HQ, the second is battalion, third is aux. that's a net gain of two, minus one to deepstrike the priests. I think I'll need more cp than that in my armies, and the list doesn't have room for another HQ. Could drop the data smith for a tech priest, he may have thought datasmiths were HQ.
Also, no dragoons? Surprised tbh.
That explains my thought as well. So base 3+0 Patrol +3 Battalion, -1 auxiliary. Thats 5 CP -1 to deepstrike using the lucius stratagem?
Edit: Ah add another enginseer
2 battalions + base = 9 starting cp -1 auxiliary -1 deepstrike leaving you with 7
March up the board with Cawl and Robots to use wrath of mars to take out a bunch of stuff? Onagers focus on their big stuff. would be annoying trying to keep track of which rangers are in which groups unless painted differently
rvd1ofakind wrote: I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.
Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff
I think your math may be wrong, that's a roughly 2000 point build. If he meant 2 arquebus total rather than 2 per unit, that's closer to your total though.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.
Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff
I think your math may be wrong, that's a roughly 2000 point build. If he meant 2 arquebus total rather than 2 per unit, that's closer to your total though.
Thats a lot of sniper rifles and points if hes putting 2 arquebues in each of those 6 ranger squads
rvd1ofakind wrote: I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.
Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff
For reference, here is my latest list that I am looking to test post-Codex, pre-FAQ. Just need to built/paint 2 more Fulgurites, a Dragoon, and an Enginseer. By then, the FAQ will probably be out and mess me all sorts of up (I hope), in that I will need to build and paint some Destroyers! ...wishful thinking, I know.
Mars & Stygies - Competitive Build
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment +1 CP
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS, CHS
[145]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS, CHS
[145]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array
[130]
[1330]
Stygies Battalion +3 CP
HQ:
Enginseer
Autocaduceus or Raiment
[52]
Enginseer
[52]
Elites:
(12) Fulgurite Priests
[204]
Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[52]
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[52]
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[52]
Fast Attack:
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
[668]
[1998]
7 CP Total
- 1 for Binharic
- 2 for Wrath
- 1 for Infiltrate
- 3 to tinker with!
Simple, straight-forward and not spread too thin across three detachments. Focused on just the two best. If I don't get first turn, I just deploy the Fulgurites conservatively or as near as I can behind LoS-blocking terrain.
So, I was thinking, we keep focusing on the new priests as our anti infantry, but all the strong horde armies rely on characters, be in changling, the cheap IGHQs, assassins, or even orks with their buffing units.
A unit of rangers with two arquebus went down 10 points, and with Stygies is quite a bit tougher to shoot down. Can even hold one back to infiltrate to make sure you can get LoS.
I'm going to go back to a sniper heavier build like I used for a bit and see what happens. I think three units with 6 rifles total might be a much better investment overall.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.
Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff
For reference, here is my latest list that I am looking to test post-Codex, pre-FAQ. Just need to built/paint 2 more Fulgurites, a Dragoon, and an Enginseer. By then, the FAQ will probably be out and mess me all sorts of up (I hope), in that I will need to build and paint some Destroyers! ...wishful thinking, I know.
Mars & Stygies - Competitive Build
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment +1 CP
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array
[130]
[1320]
Stygies Battalion +3 CP
HQ:
Enginseer
Autocaduceus or Raiment
[52]
Elites:
(12) Fulgurite Priests
[204]
Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[52]
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[52]
(5) Rangers
2x Arc Rifles
[48]
Fast Attack:
(2) Sydonian Dragoon
[136]
(2) Sydonian Dragoon
[136]
[680]
[2000]
7 CP Total
- 1 for Binharic
- 2 for Wrath
- 1 for Infiltrate
- 3 to tinker with!
Simple, straight-forward and not spread too thin across three detachments. Focused on just the two best. If I don't get first turn, I just deploy the Fulgurites conservatively or as near as I can behind LoS-blocking terrain.
''
You are missing your second HQ in your batallion
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverAlien wrote: So, I was thinking, we keep focusing on the new priests as our anti infantry, but all the strong horde armies rely on characters, be in changling, the cheap IGHQs, assassins, or even orks with their buffing units.
A unit of rangers with two arquebus went down 10 points, and with Stygies is quite a bit tougher to shoot down. Can even hold one back to infiltrate to make sure you can get LoS.
I'm going to go back to a sniper heavier build like I used for a bit and see what happens. I think three units with 6 rifles total might be a much better investment overall.
My snipers fail to wound a lot in my experience, volume of fire seems to be king when it comes to getting wounds through
SilverAlien wrote: So, I was thinking, we keep focusing on the new priests as our anti infantry, but all the strong horde armies rely on characters, be in changling, the cheap IGHQs, assassins, or even orks with their buffing units.
A unit of rangers with two arquebus went down 10 points, and with Stygies is quite a bit tougher to shoot down. Can even hold one back to infiltrate to make sure you can get LoS.
I'm going to go back to a sniper heavier build like I used for a bit and see what happens. I think three units with 6 rifles total might be a much better investment overall.
Have you used them? They seem so great in theory, but I have never had them work out. We have such a great Sniper rifle too! The high strength and AP -2 is fantastic and d3 damage with a possible mortal wound is great. Usually I just laugh as they miss and/or fail to wound all game, though. Such a disappointment.
Though that is all anecdotal. Maybe they will work for you! Bring enough and park a TPD nearby and you might see results. Knocking out Weirdboyz, Commissars, and the Changeling would be major boons to our strategy.
Vanilla Rangers being more popular, I think they need a catchy name. Sadly, I can't think of anything as good as "Dakkastelan" or "Blandguard".
Relevant to thread - I have acquired Mechanicus and will start writing lists when my Codex arrived. With 8th, is blandguard still a reasonable troops choice?
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Have you used them? They seem so great in theory, but I have never had them work out. We have such a great Sniper rifle too! The high strength and AP -2 is fantastic and d3 damage with a possible mortal wound is great. Usually I just laugh as they miss and/or fail to wound all game, though. Such a disappointment.
Though that is all anecdotal. Maybe they will work for you! Bring enough and park a TPD nearby and you might see results. Knocking out Weirdboyz, Commissars, and the Changeling would be major boons to our strategy.
They were how I managed to win a couple games vs conscript spam until my opponent begin targeting them early and avoiding LoS more. But the point drop makes them a less pricey investment, Stygies makes it much harder for guard in particular to shoot them down (also orks if they bring guns), and the infiltration stratagem can be used if I want to make sure I can get LoS on the enemy. Not to mention our HQ situation has been improved, so multiple cheapish (90 isn't bad for a troops choice) troops are more useful for filling out battalions.
Actually... dragoons might be the better choice for this now? With the BS boosting stratagem they can move and hit on a 2+ with their rifles, two shots each, 63 points per model. Plus, with Stygies, they are absurdly resistant to return fire. Gonna have to experiment and see.
Verviedi wrote: Vanilla Rangers being more popular, I think they need a catchy name. Sadly, I can't think of anything as good as "Dakkastelan" or "Blandguard".
Relevant to thread - I have acquired Mechanicus and will start writing lists when my Codex arrived. With 8th, is blandguard still a reasonable troops choice?
Barebones vanguard are perfectly fine, though currently barebones rangers are better. Basic Vanguard don't really have much offensive potential atm compared to last edition. They are basically just bodies on the field, and rangers do that better right now. Vanguard are a little better at actually hurting anything that charges them, between better overwatch and better CC, but to such a marginal degree that they aren't really worth it.
Verviedi wrote: Vanilla Rangers being more popular, I think they need a catchy name. Sadly, I can't think of anything as good as "Dakkastelan" or "Blandguard".
Relevant to thread - I have acquired Mechanicus and will start writing lists when my Codex arrived. With 8th, is blandguard still a reasonable troops choice?
Isn't it maddening? I can't think of anything catchy for it!
And yea, Blandguard are still viable. Given the price drop, I am even thinking of tossing Arc Rifles on them, just because. If you are pressed for points though, it is a good place to start cutting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: If anything, we need something for 5 Rangers with 2 Snipers. Fivesonic RangerBus or something
They were how I managed to win a couple games vs conscript spam until my opponent begin targeting them early and avoiding LoS more. But the point drop makes them a less pricey investment, Stygies makes it much harder for guard in particular to shoot them down (also orks if they bring guns), and the infiltration stratagem can be used if I want to make sure I can get LoS on the enemy. Not to mention our HQ situation has been improved, so multiple cheapish (90 isn't bad for a troops choice) troops are more useful for filling out battalions.
Actually... dragoons might be the better choice for this now? With the BS boosting stratagem they can move and hit on a 2+ with their rifles, two shots each, 63 points per model. Plus, with Stygies, they are absurdly resistant to return fire. Gonna have to experiment and see.
The Jezzail is still garbage. So yea, go for the Arquebus if you want to go Snipers.
I had a question regarding standard onager loadouts now that the Dex is known.
Specifically regarding heavy stubbers. I'm not magnetising mine (I know I should) so want to know if/how many you guys plan on putting on Icarus and neutron Walkers.
Well he did a betrep for them because the codex came out. He was waiting until the codex to play them. He might switch back to nids after their codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, I can't blame him. If I had tyranids and AdMech to choose from index only, I'd pick Tyranids any day. They are WAY more interesting
More variety of competitive builds? Well, pre codex we were both at zero so I'm not sure that would've applied, post codex we might have a competitive build or two and would be winning.
More options and units in general? I suppose so, but honestly they have a lot of duplicate options. I mean, we do as well, but it's really bad in the tyranid index.
Here's what admech can do: stand and shoot + footslog really badly
here's what nids can do: drops, hordes, Swarmlord shananigans, psychic power stuff, mines shananigans, mawloc shananigans etc. It doesn't matter that it might not be too competitive. It is at least not mind-boglingly dull.
I, myself, switched to my other army as well - Daemons. And I only came back when the codex stuff started coming out.
rvd1ofakind wrote: InControl on FLG podcast within 2 hours hype. If anything, it'll be more entertaining because Reece and Geoff are both salty as fk
About Ad Mech? Geoff doesnt play them anymore
Em, the list you posted a page back is almost exactly the same one I was thinking about running
Go figure. I am a min/max player at heart, so I gravitate to those sorts of builds. With AdMech, we have so little I figure most of us will find a list not far off from that. It is just a conglomeration of strongest potential units post-Codex, pre-FAQ.
What are you thinking of doing differently?
rvd1ofakind wrote:Well he did a betrep for them because the codex came out. He was waiting until the codex to play them. He might switch back to nids after their codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, I can't blame him. If I had tyranids and AdMech to choose from index only, I'd pick Tyranids any day. They are WAY more interesting
They can be. Lots more variety. Flyers, psykers, and whatnot.
SilverAlien wrote:More interesting how?
More variety of competitive builds? Well, pre codex we were both at zero so I'm not sure that would've applied, post codex we might have a competitive build or two and would be winning.
More options and units in general? I suppose so, but honestly they have a lot of duplicate options. I mean, we do as well, but it's really bad in the tyranid index.
I wish we had half the options they did. Just half! Because they have 47 entries, to our 17. The variety they have is enviable, because instead of us winding up with 1-2 obvious builds, they can do a handful. Flyers, big MCs, shooting or CC, and psykers, etc. Such variety!
I had a question regarding standard onager loadouts now that the Dex is known.
Specifically regarding heavy stubbers. I'm not magnetising mine (I know I should) so want to know if/how many you guys plan on putting on Icarus and neutron Walkers.
Do we have a consensus for 2k lists?
Cheers
are you asking if its good to take a second one on the laser since it already includes 1 of them? I almost always do. Its by no means game changing, but 3 more shots to murder more of the hordes is always good if you have points.
Imperium has knights. I still deny knights getting any AdMech rules. They're irrelevant as I'll never use them until someone proves me that 1 knight is a good decision in a tournament
I had a question regarding standard onager loadouts now that the Dex is known.
Specifically regarding heavy stubbers. I'm not magnetising mine (I know I should) so want to know if/how many you guys plan on putting on Icarus and neutron Walkers.
Do we have a consensus for 2k lists?
Cheers
are you asking if its good to take a second one on the laser since it already includes 1 of them? I almost always do. Its by no means game changing, but 3 more shots to murder more of the hordes is always good if you have points.
Yes asking do you take 1/2/ none. Like on an Icarus for instance is it a wasted option, neutrons is it open to debate etc.
Imperium has knights. I still deny knights getting any AdMech rules. They're irrelevant as I'll never use them until someone proves me that 1 knight is a good decision in a tournament
its not.and never will be. Knights are for fun not winning.
Datasmith just in case, a TDP/enginseer for the batallion instead of 2 enginseers, Unit of infiltrators, arqbusses
Are you running your Kastellans in 1 large unit? 2 of 3, 3 of 2?
As much as I like just using a CP to change the protocol, i like backup.
Yep. One big unit so that I can get the most out of Wrath. When I was only screening with Dragoons, keeping them bundled up was still a liability. Now that I have both Skitarii and Dragoons to screen, I can afford to bunch them up.
And I have yet, in any of my games, to switch off Protector. So I might as well go Binharic, since that 52pt is my second HQ for the Battalion.
Imperium has knights. I still deny knights getting any AdMech rules. They're irrelevant as I'll never use them until someone proves me that 1 knight is a good decision in a tournament
A knight will draw loads of anti-armor fire away from your other armor (dunecrawlers) so I don't think it's easy to dismiss it so flatly. The can also put out big hurt in shooting and CC (something admech don't have a lot of). I love the model and will always include it. I don't run the crusader as I think it's TOO many points (~550+) but I think it's better than an auto-leave out.
Imperium has knights. I still deny knights getting any AdMech rules. They're irrelevant as I'll never use them until someone proves me that 1 knight is a good decision in a tournament
A knight will draw loads of anti-armor fire away from your other armor (dunecrawlers) so I don't think it's easy to dismiss it so flatly. The can also put out big hurt in shooting and CC (something admech don't have a lot of). I love the model and will always include it. I don't run the crusader as I think it's TOO many points (~550+) but I think it's better than an auto-leave out.
What knight would you run instead? Also 550 points? Have the points values changed since index or do you mean with a couple of shiny extras?
Imperium has knights. I still deny knights getting any AdMech rules. They're irrelevant as I'll never use them until someone proves me that 1 knight is a good decision in a tournament
A knight will draw loads of anti-armor fire away from your other armor (dunecrawlers) so I don't think it's easy to dismiss it so flatly. The can also put out big hurt in shooting and CC (something admech don't have a lot of). I love the model and will always include it. I don't run the crusader as I think it's TOO many points (~550+) but I think it's better than an auto-leave out.
What knight would you run instead? Also 550 points? Have the points values changed since index or do you mean with a couple of shiny extras?
The only really worthwhile Knight clocks in at about 557-585pt. Because we want to shoot and a Crusader shoots best. Stormspear is solid and it just winds up being a meta call between RFBC and TC.
gendoikari87 wrote: You can charge from behind the transport but charging the the transport itself is risky until the character charges in because even hitting on 5 and wounding on 5 that's still 9.33 unsaved wounds average so something like a rhino would likely not make it if it has a wound or two on it.
If you really wanted to make this work go a marine faction with re rolls to charge on the warlord and stick them behind a rhino or two that isn't charging or charges after the commander. Then stick a hammer on him
gendoikari87 wrote: Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works
Quit saying Tactical Marines are worth anything. Any Marine player worth their stuff could tell you how bad they are. They're garbage. They could be 12 points and I'd still take Scouts over them. They could be the same price and I'd still take Scouts solely for deployment and equipment options.
You didn't even know about Paladins > Grey Knight Terminators. Why would we listen to you on Tactical Marines, when we got Marine players here (myself included) that can tell you every single thing wrong with them?
dude gw bases the game around the basic marine. It will never be gak or amazing. It will always be the bog standard unit by which everything is measured because they have to be good enough to always take while not being so good you won't take other things. That's how gw operates.
If the game were truly based around the Tactical Marine they wouldn't have been consistently garbage since I played (which is mid 4th edition, starting with Necrons and Daemon Hunters). It literally took FREE vehicles for people to use the unit entry.
The real number one seller and an item never to leave the top of the charts, is the Space Marine Tactical box. This iteration of the models is also still fairly new, and when you need grav-weapons you really have no choice. To put things in perspective at one point the Space Marine Tactical box has sold more units in one month than the entire Fantasy range for the same period, and you wonder why we have Age of Sigmar.
Now granted selling more than sigmar isn't a high bar
Just to the one or two people with common sense. I've learned common sense is rare and. Not to mind the hoard of idiots who say you're wrong when you're right. Those people don't matter they're a dime a dozen. That's how we got trump. The number of people making an argument does not make it right or wrong the facts do that. if that we're the case climate change would be fake and we could all go back to diesel trucks. I find it's useful to just ignore the idiots.
You must not take in controls list and copy it. Its a potent player and uses lists that fit his playstyle. Sure strong sure one of the v best players does not mean you ll fit the same role. Even in 7th he used war conv with conclave extremely potent but some tours where first some last its how precise he is.
Most of the cons we have already identify and talked in forums. Battalions 2 major detachments etc. Snipers as well i have said many times best gun in game neutron and our arq you should use them.
I was familiar with in control thinking and its not the best list. Its a list anticipating the ig spams and current way of thinking in the game with ig previous winner. He tried to be on top of the enemy lists not makinga generall list.
So i dont say he is not one of the best sure is but you need to think these issues according to the tour and timming the game plays. Smart of him to maximize the robots with wrath spending less vs horde lists and priests.
Datasmith is the way to go. Dont be lured in not including one. With a list heavy 5+ robots you must or risk being kittedmfrom mobile armies and out ranged. 52 points for good healing option not to spend a cp move robots second round etc must remain in such lists. Do not risk it youmll regret it if matched with mobile enemies heavy los etc.he is definetly not stupid.
Now i wish we all knew our enemies will swarm troops but they wont. And 2 neuteonagers are not enough 4-5 robots 3 neutronagers is the optimal i have played many games 2 will not be enough for dealing with all lists. And since we got limited cp s you cant waste wrath on every low str shots. Taking a knight down with wrath when shooting str 6 shots wont always do it. Same goes for priests and inflitrators. Obviously he decided to take best units for wounding with wrarh. He still gonna waste priests holding obj in heavy armor lists and definetly change some details.
Snipers do work but need 4+ to make a difference when you need.
Icarus already said no need with mars.
Dragoons work better in bigger unit atm either take a unit of 3+ 4 for priest points and can be buffed to 4+ taser or not at all. Its tax since you can have troops with -1 now cheaper. And need for cp s. Though i would take a large group of dragoons better than priests. As long as he uses the range ones if he is using the melee ones then he is using all our moryal capabilities and i support it. Only way to pass high inv. Dragoons str 8 is the best atm but cant seem to test them atm. And making a group like that 3+ seem hard to multi charge maneuver etc still better if you dont have 20 priests. But can defend better. So good luck making your decisions.
Smart list good thinking and close to the best possible atm.
The cast did bring up a good idea of adding Bobby G for his stuff and the 3 extra CP, though depending on if its worth the 300 or so points he is for it.
RV, you need to lower that sodium intake, not good for our internal systems
Canticles kinda suck. Shroudpsalm is the best by far.
Mars is a must but you really wanna do multiple FWs if you're going full admech.
Rangers > Vanguard because cheap. Snipers - really really important.
Reece defends Destroyers because of the Ryza stratagem. And says breachers.
Geoff takes the piss out of everything Reece says about bad units being good. LOVE IT.
Stygies dragoons infiltrating are the most annoying thing ever for shooting armies. They have to shoot them at -2 or get charged. And then you just autoblow them up in your enemy's face.
Take multiple Onagers if you go Neutron
Now they are just significantly better.
The variety they have is enviable, because instead of us winding up with 1-2 obvious builds, they can do a handful. Flyers, big 