Hello.. I've read every page here it's taken awhile. Lol Please could someone post the ghetto celestine build for me I've tried searching but couldn't find it
Cheers in advance.
changemod wrote: Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
Use Maynark as Nephrekh and you can advance the Lychguard 6-7" plus 5" movement and still charge via Kutlakhs ability.
I think the next imperial armour is focussed on ad mech vs necrons so hopefully we won't have to wait too long
Stratagems speak of disembarking from a Monolith - is it 100% a given that units can't move coming out of it? Could be worth it to jump on GWsFAQ email to bug them to FAQ it.
Sn33R wrote: Hello.. I've read every page here it's taken awhile. Lol Please could someone post the ghetto celestine build for me I've tried searching but couldn't find it
Cheers in advance.
"Ghetto Celestine" is a Destroyer Lord with a Nanoscarab Casket and Warscythe. Significantly less lethal than the real deal, but the ability to get back up not once but twice (once with the casket, another time with a stratagem) is kind of a hilarious concept. Might be an interesting choice for a warlord if you just reaaally don't want to give up that slay the warlord point.
Sn33R wrote: Hello.. I've read every page here it's taken awhile. Lol Please could someone post the ghetto celestine build for me I've tried searching but couldn't find it
Cheers in advance.
"Ghetto Celestine" is a Destroyer Lord with a Nanoscarab Casket and Warscythe. Significantly less lethal than the real deal, but the ability to get back up not once but twice (once with the casket, another time with a stratagem) is kind of a hilarious concept. Might be an interesting choice for a warlord if you just reaaally don't want to give up that slay the warlord point.
Haha I had no clue, thought people were referring to a weird Celestine build. Awesome.
I played the ghetto celestine d-lord. accompanied by a ccb novok warlord with lightning field and a cloaktek. escorted by some scarabs.
they were incredibly durable. these 2 guys charged a bunch of k-sons terms and crushed them. later on both got killed and revived. huge distraction carnifex. they soak a LOT of firepower, regain wounds nicely and rekt my opponents flank.
only 1200 pts game though!
(played a experimental list with 5 different hqs. )
I had an awesome match against AM last night, 2000 points.
My list, all Sautekh (we try to keep to one Dynasty in our group):
Spoiler:
Cryptek with fly and the Veil
2x DDA 1x Tesseract Ark
1x Spyder
Imhotekh
10 Tesla Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
6 Destroyers
3 Scarabs
6 Wraiths (one pistol)
--
His Valhallan AM list (reroll 1s if stationary):
Pask + 3 x Leman Russ all with a 72" S8 D3 turret gun
2 x Manticore
2 x heavy bolter
2 x mortars
1 psyker
Creed
some HQs
1000 little duders
--
We deployed Front-line Assault, the one with a pointy tip towards the middle.
My 3 arks held the left flank against his 4 Leman Russes.
My 6 destroyers held the far right flank to go after his 2 Manticores deployed there.
Cryptek and Spyder hang with the vehicles for repairs. 10 Tesla immortals in the middle not far from the cryptek for future veiling.
Wraiths deployed in the center for shortest possible route across.
Imhotek and 10 Tesla immortals near the destroyers on the right, giving both MWBD.
--
Destroyers moved up, popped the stratagem, and shot against the first Manticore, wiffed slightly and left it with 3 wounds. Wraiths made charge towards weapons team in the middle, scoring first blood.
DDA x 2 and Tesseract Ark all fired at Pask, inflicting a total of 5 damage. Bummer. They'd be facing down 4 gigantic barrels next turn.
Rest of the battle went like this:
Leman russes on my far left slowly wittered down my Arks. My arks managed to kill one single tank. Spyder and cryptek got to heal a total of 4 wounds on them. His turret being a D3 weapon meant minimal advantage from Quantum Shielding.
Destroyers faired way better. His entire army was caught up with the Arks and the Wraiths. Immortals, Imotekh and Destroyers moved up on my far right, killing off the first manticore, and locking the other Manticore in combat for the rest of the game.
With Immo, Ctyptek, 2 destroyers and 7 immortals I won 15-13 after turn 5. Had the game gone to turn 7 I would probably be tabled.
--
Conclusions: Destroyers were my best unit, even if they only got off Extermination Protocols once, their increased power and versatility is great. Sautekh meant I could advance and still shoot fairly well still with reroll 1's to hit.
They were pretty immune to anything AM could dish out in CC against them, so they locked whatever they could, preventing vehicles from firing and causing orders to be spent on letting fallen back units shoot, instead of buffing them further). A single destroyer easily finished off characters in cover when they were next in line. Keeping the destroyers in cover for 2+ meant that even ridiculous amount of lasgun fire were unlikely to do much harm to them. When Imotekh was in range to give them 2+ things were even better.
Imotekhs staff was pretty awesome against AM. Easily clearing guardsmen from cover 3 at a time. 4+ save, sometimes 3+ with a stratagem, meant Tesla shots weren't all that effective all the time, and against Sentinels in CC the staff still wounded at 3+ ignored their armor and dealth 2 dmg a piece.
I even forgot to fire his Storm trick. Bummer.
Sautekh meant I got back CP on 5+, which saved me an extra 3-4 CP on top of my starting 6. It also meant that I got the most out of the heavy Arks when they had to reposition.
Tesla Immortals were great as always.
The repair Spyder, largely ignored, lurked in the background after the Arks were gone, but did win me two VPs from objectives. Had I killed more tanks, perhaps the Arks wouldnt have been one shotted, and there might have been more need for repairing them.
The 3 scarabs did nothing this match. But had they been needed for an objective, they would have been there.
After trying Silver Tide a couple of times, I've noticed one big thing you can do that can improve it's effectiveness without the Deceiver who relies on his D3/getting first turn:
Place your objective markers as close to the middle as possible.
Your tide should be in range of these objectives by turn 1 and in rapid-fire range of them by turn 2-3. While you might not have direct control over these objectives, you are definitely forcing your opponent to deal with the Warriors if they want to take hold of them.
Ah, right, thanks for the reminders about the D.Lord, guys.
Yeah I'm struggling to find a use for him this codex edition.
If he gave out a buff to everything (not just Destroyers) obviously he'd be a lot more useful, but a guy who wants to be in combat giving a buff to guys who do not want to be anywhere near combat just seems like a really stupid design decision. And in that his buff is baked into his price it just does not seem worth the points if your plan is to have him run off and do things by himself.
Pity. He was one of my favorite units from back in the 5th days.
Also, torblind,
Can you please spoiler your list and battle report
torblind wrote: I had an awesome match against AM last night, 2000 points.
Spoiler:
My list, all Sautekh (we try to keep to one Dynasty in our group):
Cryptek with fly and the Veil
2x DDA 1x Tesseract Ark
1x Spyder
Imhotekh
10 Tesla Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
6 Destroyers
3 Scarabs
6 Wraiths (one pistol)
--
His Valhallan AM list (reroll 1s if stationary):
Pask + 3 x Leman Russ all with a 72" S8 D3 turret gun
2 x Manticore
2 x heavy bolter
2 x mortars
1 psyker
Creed
some HQs
1000 little duders
--
We deployed Front-line Assault, the one with a pointy tip towards the middle.
My 3 arks held the left flank against his 4 Leman Russes.
My 6 destroyers held the far right flank to go after his 2 Manticores deployed there.
Cryptek and Spyder hang with the vehicles for repairs. 10 Tesla immortals in the middle not far from the cryptek for future veiling.
Wraiths deployed in the center for shortest possible route across.
Imhotek and 10 Tesla immortals near the destroyers on the right, giving both MWBD.
--
Destroyers moved up, popped the stratagem, and shot against the first Manticore, wiffed slightly and left it with 3 wounds. Wraiths made charge towards weapons team in the middle, scoring first blood.
DDA x 2 and Tesseract Ark all fired at Pask, inflicting a total of 5 damage. Bummer. They'd be facing down 4 gigantic barrels next turn.
Rest of the battle went like this:
Leman russes on my far left slowly wittered down my Arks. My arks managed to kill one single tank. Spyder and cryptek got to heal a total of 4 wounds on them. His turret being a D3 weapon meant minimal advantage from Quantum Shielding.
Destroyers faired way better. His entire army was caught up with the Arks and the Wraiths. Immortals, Imotekh and Destroyers moved up on my far right, killing off the first manticore, and locking the other Manticore in combat for the rest of the game.
With Immo, Ctyptek, 2 destroyers and 7 immortals I won 15-13 after turn 5. Had the game gone to turn 7 I would probably be tabled.
--
Conclusions: Destroyers were my best unit, even if they only got off Extermination Protocols once, their increased power and versatility is great. Sautekh meant I could advance and still shoot fairly well still with reroll 1's to hit.
They were pretty immune to anything AM could dish out in CC against them, so they locked whatever they could, preventing vehicles from firing and causing orders to be spent on letting fallen back units shoot, instead of buffing them further). A single destroyer easily finished off characters in cover when they were next in line. Keeping the destroyers in cover for 2+ meant that even ridiculous amount of lasgun fire were unlikely to do much harm to them. When Imotekh was in range to give them 2+ things were even better.
Imotekhs staff was pretty awesome against AM. Easily clearing guardsmen from cover 3 at a time. 4+ save, sometimes 3+ with a stratagem, meant Tesla shots weren't all that effective all the time, and against Sentinels in CC the staff still wounded at 3+ ignored their armor and dealth 2 dmg a piece.
I even forgot to fire his Storm trick. Bummer.
Sautekh meant I got back CP on 5+, which saved me an extra 3-4 CP on top of my starting 6. It also meant that I got the most out of the heavy Arks when they had to reposition.
Tesla Immortals were great as always.
The repair Spyder, largely ignored, lurked in the background after the Arks were gone, but did win me two VPs from objectives. Had I killed more tanks, perhaps the Arks wouldnt have been one shotted, and there might have been more need for repairing them.
The 3 scarabs did nothing this match. But had they been needed for an objective, they would have been there.
Went against normalised T5 Armor 4+ target for offense and S5 ap-2 for defence. Computed both single wound and multi-wounds. Renormalised everything on a 300pts investment basis (which is the price of 6 destroyers).
This is all based on pure stats. I don't rate extra perks such as invasion beam or giving reroll 1 to hit and such. Nor do i rate movement, which is of course important. Plan accordinly.
Warriors: C - only really useful in large number in a combo with ghost ark, cryptek+chronometron against multiple wounds shooting armies.
Immortals: B - best used in tesla with MWBD vs 5++swarms, but you all know that. Probably the best infantry clearing unit we have.
Deathmarks: D - can't find any use based solely on stats
Flayed ones: B - second best infantry cleaner after pretorians, but with the best potential combo of all: Immotek, Anrakyr, Orikan, giving 4 attack reroll 1 to hit to wound and 5++ save in combat. Theorically inflicts more wound than destroyers even!
Lychguard: A - Surprised? Naked they inflict just as much wounds as immortals or destroyers on 1W infantry, maxed out (again Anrakyr +1A) this is the highest damage output vs multiple wounds opponents we have.
Preorians: A- Surprised again? This is the best autonomous unit in our codex. They can go alone and pump more damage than all others. They weakens vs multple wounds stuff yet can still pack some punch.
C'Tan Nighbringer: B. Best character killer going naked without buffs. Period.
C'Tan Deceiver: C. All around less good than Nightbringer. I did not rate its teleportation trick though. But if you don,t plan to use its trick, stick with nightbringer.
Scarab: B. Best all around number of effective HP / point spend, period. 2nd more resistant vs multiple wound dealing ennemies after the ghost ark.
Wraith: A. My maths have to admit it although they are not my favorite. 3rd most resistant unit point for points, yet can still pack a punch vs multple wound opponents. Warning: the damage output is half that of a fully maxed lychguard or flayed one unit. Will hit lower than scarab vs 1W infantry swarms.
Tomb blades: C. Offense relatively suck (compared to lower cost infantry) but they are resiliant vs 1-w weapons.
Destroyers: A - 2nd best damage output vs multple wounds (after Nightbringer) going naked, you can combo with a Dlord or the stratagem they will match nightbringer. Even good vs 1wound infantry which surprised me.
Heavy destroyers: D. Point for points, unless yu have very specific targets, take regular destoryers.
Triarch stalker: B. Very robust, offensively made to use its flamer and charge.
Doomsday ark: A. Very random, can go from 1 shot up to 26. 6th best damage output and 3rd best when ignoring melee units. Also though to crack, an all around auto-include.
Ghost ark: B. Cheaper than DDA so point for point it's worth more defensively. I would always use it if i use warrior, not much for the RP boost, but the extra defense and attack they bring.
Monolith: D. Nothing to do, its average in everything. Its really the invasion beam trick that does the difference (best way to launch lychguards and flayed ones in your opponent's face).
Annihilation barge: D. Sucks.
Sure, from a pure statistical standpoint some of these might seem good (eg. Lychguard), but how are you supposed to get these well performing units into combat?
And if ignoring certain potential buffs then obviously you're going to be missing out on combos that might elevate a unit's ability (eg. Mephrit Deathmarks with a Lord nearby being quite lethal).
Point being if you want to throw some punch, nobody does it better than lychguard and flayed ones. BUT you have to build an army around them (i.e. couple of buffing HQ and invasion beam ready). I can't compute everything.
You can also just get charged. You know i saw more than one adversary being able to charge me and whack me good. Having lychguard staying behind in case that happens is not a bad deal (and go glue your ass to an objective while waiting for that charge).
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK STOP PLAYING!
All the list i see are a combination of Outrider / vanguard / spearhead detachment and most list i see have very low CP. But our stratagems all rocks.
I tried a Sautekh brigade with hyperlogical strategist trait. And just vomited stratagems all game long and had remaing CP at the end of the game. Poor Eldar/Harlequin didn't see it coming and it was a total blowout. Ok i got lucky dice rolls, but even if i rolled average i still would have won.
That will leave you 500 free points or so to customise as you wish. My version i replaced the heavy destroyers for 3 DDA and ad a C'Tan deceiver, the remaining points spent in scarab swarms.
Here's one good trick: scarabs swarms can advance and charge, you can blow one up for D3MW and you can RP them. That will cost you 3CP, hopefully you'll get one back. Do this once, the guy will go crazy trying to kill all thse swarms. That's ok, they're cheap and you get a free round having your immortals not targeted (by the way disperse your immortals in cover).
Have the C'Tan blow a 2nd power every turn for double MW output.
Inflict one wound on a big unit / target and spend 2 CP on methdogical destruction to have +1 to hit for your 6 units of Tesla immortals as well as your 3 DDA if need be.
Resurect your warlord.
You see the point? Just pumpimg stratagems like there's no tommorrow seems better than just relying on pure unit stats.
All the list i see are a combination of Outrider / vanguard / spearhead detachment and most list i see have very low CP. But our stratagems all rocks.
I tried a Sautekh brigade with hyperlogical strategist trait. And just vomited stratagems all game long and had remaing CP at the end of the game. Poor Eldar/Harlequin didn't see it coming and it was a total blowout. Ok i got lucky dice rolls, but even if i rolled average i still would have won.
That will leave you 500 free points or so to customise as you wish. My version i replaced the heavy destroyers for 3 DDA and ad a C'Tan deceiver, the remaining points spent in scarab swarms.
Here's one good trick: scarabs swarms can advance and charge, you can blow one up for D3MW and you can RP them. That will cost you 3CP, hopefully you'll get one back. Do this once, the guy will go crazy trying to kill all thse swarms. That's ok, they're cheap and you get a free round having your immortals not targeted (by the way disperse your immortals in cover).
Have the C'Tan blow a 2nd power every turn for double MW output.
Inflict one wound on a big unit / target and spend 2 CP on methdogical destruction to have +1 to hit for your 6 units of Tesla immortals as well as your 3 DDA if need be.
Resurect your warlord.
You see the point? Just pumpimg stratagems like there's no tommorrow seems better than just relying on pure unit stats.
Try it.
I would make two Tesla squads 10, add imhotek and then take 2 or 3 DDA. This would make it a little better I think. I like it though.
All the list i see are a combination of Outrider / vanguard / spearhead detachment and most list i see have very low CP. But our stratagems all rocks.
I tried a Sautekh brigade with hyperlogical strategist trait. And just vomited stratagems all game long and had remaing CP at the end of the game. Poor Eldar/Harlequin didn't see it coming and it was a total blowout. Ok i got lucky dice rolls, but even if i rolled average i still would have won.
That will leave you 500 free points or so to customise as you wish. My version i replaced the heavy destroyers for 3 DDA and ad a C'Tan deceiver, the remaining points spent in scarab swarms.
Here's one good trick: scarabs swarms can advance and charge, you can blow one up for D3MW and you can RP them. That will cost you 3CP, hopefully you'll get one back. Do this once, the guy will go crazy trying to kill all thse swarms. That's ok, they're cheap and you get a free round having your immortals not targeted (by the way disperse your immortals in cover).
Have the C'Tan blow a 2nd power every turn for double MW output.
Inflict one wound on a big unit / target and spend 2 CP on methdogical destruction to have +1 to hit for your 6 units of Tesla immortals as well as your 3 DDA if need be.
Resurect your warlord.
You see the point? Just pumpimg stratagems like there's no tommorrow seems better than just relying on pure unit stats.
Try it.
I would make two Tesla squads 10, add imhotek and then take 2 or 3 DDA. This would make it a little better I think. I like it though.
Having recently tried the Destroyers out for the first time, I'd be reluctant not to include them. Which means you need Wraiths to soak up fire from the Destroyers, and suddenly there's not much left. But I'll toy around with the idea.
changemod wrote: Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
Use Maynark as Nephrekh and you can advance the Lychguard 6-7" plus 5" movement and still charge via Kutlakhs ability.
Is this a legal move in tournament environment?
I can remember this was discussed some pages before, but i cant find the reason/conclusion why this could be allowed.
Edit:
We dont got a real model for Kutlakh either as far as i know...
Yes it is perfectly legal to use Maynark as Nephrekh or as any other Dynasty. This is due to Maynark being a FW Dynasty and not mentioned in our new Codex or having any "Dynasty" buffs. E.g. Charnovokh is mentioned in the Fluff but aren't a playable Dynasty. So, if you want to use a Charnovokh Dynasty you would just sub a different Dynasties abilities, like Novokh, and change the Novokh Keyword to Charnovokh. In the scenario we are subbing Nihilakh for Maynark.
The only restriction is that both Kutlakh and Toholk have to be in the same Dynasty e.g. Kutlakh can't be in a Nephreak dynasty and Have Toholk in a Nihilakh. Because they both share the Maynark Keyword.
Also, because Kutlakh ,and Toholk, are not actual models you can freely use whatever models you want to be proxies of Kurlakh and/or Toholk.
Sn33R wrote: Hello.. I've read every page here it's taken awhile. Lol Please could someone post the ghetto celestine build for me I've tried searching but couldn't find it
Cheers in advance.
"Ghetto Celestine" is a Destroyer Lord with a Nanoscarab Casket and Warscythe. Significantly less lethal than the real deal, but the ability to get back up not once but twice (once with the casket, another time with a stratagem) is kind of a hilarious concept. Might be an interesting choice for a warlord if you just reaaally don't want to give up that slay the warlord point.
If you want to make him the Warlord, you can give him the less damage one as well. Makes for a pretty hard Slay The Warlord.
All the list i see are a combination of Outrider / vanguard / spearhead detachment and most list i see have very low CP. But our stratagems all rocks.
I tried a Sautekh brigade with hyperlogical strategist trait. And just vomited stratagems all game long and had remaing CP at the end of the game. Poor Eldar/Harlequin didn't see it coming and it was a total blowout. Ok i got lucky dice rolls, but even if i rolled average i still would have won.
That will leave you 500 free points or so to customise as you wish. My version i replaced the heavy destroyers for 3 DDA and ad a C'Tan deceiver, the remaining points spent in scarab swarms.
Here's one good trick: scarabs swarms can advance and charge, you can blow one up for D3MW and you can RP them. That will cost you 3CP, hopefully you'll get one back. Do this once, the guy will go crazy trying to kill all thse swarms. That's ok, they're cheap and you get a free round having your immortals not targeted (by the way disperse your immortals in cover).
Have the C'Tan blow a 2nd power every turn for double MW output.
Inflict one wound on a big unit / target and spend 2 CP on methdogical destruction to have +1 to hit for your 6 units of Tesla immortals as well as your 3 DDA if need be.
Resurect your warlord.
You see the point? Just pumpimg stratagems like there's no tommorrow seems better than just relying on pure unit stats.
Try it.
I would make two Tesla squads 10, add imhotek and then take 2 or 3 DDA. This would make it a little better I think. I like it though.
changemod wrote: Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
Use Maynark as Nephrekh and you can advance the Lychguard 6-7" plus 5" movement and still charge via Kutlakhs ability.
Is this a legal move in tournament environment?
I can remember this was discussed some pages before, but i cant find the reason/conclusion why this could be allowed.
Edit:
We dont got a real model for Kutlakh either as far as i know...
Yes it is perfectly legal to use Maynark as Nephrekh or as any other Dynasty. This is due to Maynark being a FW Dynasty and not mentioned in our new Codex or having any "Dynasty" buffs.[...]
And there starts my problem. They have a own, nonchangeable dynasty, and not the <Dynasty> keyword. And if i use for example Nephrek instead my opponent argues, that its no longer "Maynark" and so i cant use the benefits of Kutlakh.
Only because there is no explicit dynasty benefit (stratagems, warlord trait, code) this does not mean i can change the dynasty freely and add another dynastys bonuses on top.
How would you argue for using 2 dynastys at once? How can this be legal, apart from it comforts you?
Its like using Imotekh as Novokh, because its suits you better...
Straight from the codex, "If you have chosen a dynasty that does not feature on this list, you can choose the Dynastic Code that best suits the fighting style and battlefield strategies of the warriors that hail from it"
The difference is Imotekh belongs to Sautekh AND Sautekh is a featured dynasty on the list. Kutlakh dynasty is not featured, so he can choose whichever he pleases.
DaBraken wrote: And there starts my problem. They have a own, nonchangeable dynasty, and not the <Dynasty> keyword. And if i use for example Nephrek instead my opponent argues, that its no longer "Maynark" and so i cant use the benefits of Kutlakh.
Only because there is no explicit dynasty benefit (stratagems, warlord trait, code) this does not mean i can change the dynasty freely and add another dynastys bonuses on top.
How would you argue for using 2 dynastys at once? How can this be legal, apart from it comforts you?
Its like using Imotekh as Novokh, because its suits you better...
'Maynark' is not 'Nephrekh' or 'Novokh'. Nobody's saying you get the keyword or the stratagems, or the warlord traits, or special relics. Those all belong to 'Novokh'.
However, you can benefit from Dynastic Codes, because you're allowed to apply any dynastic code you want to any dynasty as long as it's not already set.
All the list i see are a combination of Outrider / vanguard / spearhead detachment and most list i see have very low CP. But our stratagems all rocks.
I tried a Sautekh brigade with hyperlogical strategist trait. And just vomited stratagems all game long and had remaing CP at the end of the game. Poor Eldar/Harlequin didn't see it coming and it was a total blowout. Ok i got lucky dice rolls, but even if i rolled average i still would have won.
That will leave you 500 free points or so to customise as you wish. My version i replaced the heavy destroyers for 3 DDA and ad a C'Tan deceiver, the remaining points spent in scarab swarms.
Here's one good trick: scarabs swarms can advance and charge, you can blow one up for D3MW and you can RP them. That will cost you 3CP, hopefully you'll get one back. Do this once, the guy will go crazy trying to kill all thse swarms. That's ok, they're cheap and you get a free round having your immortals not targeted (by the way disperse your immortals in cover).
Have the C'Tan blow a 2nd power every turn for double MW output.
Inflict one wound on a big unit / target and spend 2 CP on methdogical destruction to have +1 to hit for your 6 units of Tesla immortals as well as your 3 DDA if need be.
Resurect your warlord.
You see the point? Just pumpimg stratagems like there's no tommorrow seems better than just relying on pure unit stats.
Try it.
I would make two Tesla squads 10, add imhotek and then take 2 or 3 DDA. This would make it a little better I think. I like it though.
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
++ Total: [102 PL, 1995pts] ++
Yeah. But you won't be disapointed with 5-immo squads. The guy split to take out as many as he thinks he can and undershoot or overshoot, but it's harder to optimise then a few 10-immortals squads. Prone to mistakes. I had plenty of one-man crew rolling RP for 2 new guys. I used the cryptek with the cloak so he can move around fast, i figured no need for 5++ if you hide immortals in cover.
Immotek... you'll have enough CP to use that MWBD twice stratagem. He's expensive. But you can try and see what he does.
All the list i see are a combination of Outrider / vanguard / spearhead detachment and most list i see have very low CP. But our stratagems all rocks.
I tried a Sautekh brigade with hyperlogical strategist trait. And just vomited stratagems all game long and had remaing CP at the end of the game. Poor Eldar/Harlequin didn't see it coming and it was a total blowout. Ok i got lucky dice rolls, but even if i rolled average i still would have won.
That will leave you 500 free points or so to customise as you wish. My version i replaced the heavy destroyers for 3 DDA and ad a C'Tan deceiver, the remaining points spent in scarab swarms.
Here's one good trick: scarabs swarms can advance and charge, you can blow one up for D3MW and you can RP them. That will cost you 3CP, hopefully you'll get one back. Do this once, the guy will go crazy trying to kill all thse swarms. That's ok, they're cheap and you get a free round having your immortals not targeted (by the way disperse your immortals in cover).
Have the C'Tan blow a 2nd power every turn for double MW output.
Inflict one wound on a big unit / target and spend 2 CP on methdogical destruction to have +1 to hit for your 6 units of Tesla immortals as well as your 3 DDA if need be.
Resurect your warlord.
You see the point? Just pumpimg stratagems like there's no tommorrow seems better than just relying on pure unit stats.
Try it.
I would make two Tesla squads 10, add imhotek and then take 2 or 3 DDA. This would make it a little better I think. I like it though.
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
++ Total: [102 PL, 1995pts] ++
Yeah. But you won't be disapointed with 5-immo squads. The guy split to take out as many as he thinks he can and undershoot or overshoot, but it's harder to optimise then a few 10-immortals squads. Prone to mistakes. I had plenty of one-man crew rolling RP for 2 new guys. I used the cryptek with the cloak so he can move around fast, i figured no need for 5++ if you hide immortals in cover.
Immotek... you'll have enough CP to use that MWBD twice stratagem. He's expensive. But you can try and see what he does.
Ooh I like that idea! I really wonder how this army will play. I've never tried 5 man squads of immortals.
I would really like to add some Destroyers into the mix though, as that will give you a perfect target for your CPs.
I like that I can potentially repair 6 wounds per turn on a DDA. I'd prefer to add at least 1 more destroyer, but there nowhere really to get the points.
As my Teslamortals work best at max to take full effect of Imotekh. Even the 5 Flayed Ones could just stay behind the lines and counter charge a unit that's charged one of your ranged units.
This might be a list that is only suited against very annoying players, as this won't make you many friends....
Void Dragon damn, that's a good list.
Agreed, it really needs to have at least one more Destroyer.
Where to get the points from, though...
(a note on Flayed One usage: you can always hold them back as a clutch objective grabber. Same with Deathmarks, but they do have their better use as alpha counter punchers).
Still tinkering around with what list I want to run with; I know for sure Nephrekh is my dynasty of choice, and I reaaaally want to find a way to make lychguard work even though I know they're not the most efficient choice. I figure my best bet is to use them as a second wave to follow up on the much faster wraiths. Any thoughts?
Are warriors the cheapest necron body?
Basically I'm trying to make a 1000/1250 pts list with a Vault I assume I need bodies the most. Maybe some wraiths?
Also are cryptek and lord the cheapest HQs? If so, I don't think I can afford to go batallion since I will have 500 pts(of 1000/1250) taken up by a vault
Stumped on dynasty+trait too. Advance 6'' might be the best, but they traits are awful. So half range AP and character snipe or Advance with heavy and CP 5+ since I'm CP starved.
Warriors are the cheapest BODIES, but Immortals are the cheapest minimum troop unit (120 for 10 Warriors vs. 85 for 5 Immortals).
Lords with Hyperphase Swords are the cheapest HQ (76 points).
So in theory you *could* fit a Vault into a 1000 point Battalion and still have some points left over...
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP [22 PL, 407pts] ++
+ HQ +
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
+ Troops +
5x Immortals [4 PL, 85pts]: Tesla
5x Immortals [4 PL, 85pts]: Tesla
5x Immortals [4 PL, 85pts]: Tesla
... though I don't know if this list would be very good.
(you'd probably want to upgrade one of those Lords to an Overlord to get some use out of the Tesla via MWBD. Maybe add in some Scarabs after that to round out the points and give you some faster objective capture. For 1250 you'd have even more wiggle room so could probably include Wraiths/Tomb Blades/Destroyers. Not sure which Dynasty would be best for a mini army like this. Maybe Nephrekh? So you can more quickly move around)
Void Dragon damn, that's a good list.
Agreed, it really needs to have at least one more Destroyer.
Where to get the points from, though...
(a note on Flayed One usage: you can always hold them back as a clutch objective grabber. Same with Deathmarks, but they do have their better use as alpha counter punchers).
Drop imotekh and some immo if you need more destroyers.
Void Dragon damn, that's a good list. Agreed, it really needs to have at least one more Destroyer. Where to get the points from, though... (a note on Flayed One usage: you can always hold them back as a clutch objective grabber. Same with Deathmarks, but they do have their better use as alpha counter punchers).
Drop imotekh and some immo if you need more destroyers.
Imotekh is way too good with this kind of strategy. With all the things he brings to the table, he is the last unit I would cut.
With that said, I honestly don't see anywhere to effectively cut points outside of reducing the max squads of Immortals. You can also switch out a squad of Deathmarks for Flayed Ones or the Spyder for a Heavy Destroyer, saving 10 and 13 points respectively, but the strategical impact of it may not be worth doing so. Maybe we just go with this list until a point reduction comes along lol.
I would look at the list and see how you plan to spend your CP. Yea it sounds nice, having all the CP we can get, but feel that list cant spend them well.
moonsmite wrote: I would look at the list and see how you plan to spend your CP. Yea it sounds nice, having all the CP we can get, but feel that list cant spend them well.
This is what i was worried about also. There arent a whole lot of things there that are wanting a ton of cp. Some of our best strategems are not all that useful here.
Void Dragon damn, that's a good list.
Agreed, it really needs to have at least one more Destroyer.
Where to get the points from, though...
(a note on Flayed One usage: you can always hold them back as a clutch objective grabber. Same with Deathmarks, but they do have their better use as alpha counter punchers).
Drop imotekh and some immo if you need more destroyers.
Imotekh is way too good with this kind of strategy. With all the things he brings to the table, he is the last unit I would cut.
With that said, I honestly don't see anywhere to effectively cut points outside of reducing the max squads of Immortals. You can also switch out a squad of Deathmarks for Flayed Ones or the Spyder for a Heavy Destroyer, saving 10 and 13 points respectively, but the strategical impact of it may not be worth doing so. Maybe we just go with this list until a point reduction comes along lol.
Witch of his ability is too good? OL can take same WT. You dont need 1 extra CP because you have them a lot. You can MVBD second unit with OL for 1 CP. His one use ability is worth ~100 pts?
The Strategems you could use with this list are quite a few. You might go through them faster than you think.
Spoiler:
Extermination Protocol obviously. no need to explain. even with only 3 destroyers.
Methodical Destruction Obv as well. with 2 10 man tesla units and a cryptek that has the MW gun to start it off. (although <12")
Solar Pulse There are many units that gain more than the standard benefit from cover. Usefull in a lot of circumstances. Could help the tesla get rid of 2+ MEQ saves in cover.
Quantum Deflection getting to use this every turn the opponent wants to kill your vehicles? Should get him Very frustrated.
Damage Control Override Bad rolling/not enough repairing has degraded your favourite toy? nvm all that.
Ressurection Protocols Imotekh is hard to kill and in most games this shouldn't be needed, but could be very handy to res your cryptek or lord when needed.
And then there are the Strats if the enemy did get into HtH and you want to give your boys a slight boost. If they are worth it depends on the different situation obviously, but they are good strats to use since you have the points to spend.
Disruption Fields nice to wound of 3's instead of 4's. or on 2's instead of 3's if you have a warscythe lord althought the last one might not be that good a target for only 3 attacks.
Entropic Strike Imotekh against a annoying 3++ save? or even a 4++ save? Could make the difference between a dead HQ or potentially dangerous attacks back.
Self-Destruction You have scarabs, you have a spider to remake set scarabs, this is too much fun not to use when your opponent least suspects it.
Insane Bravery could be usefull for your 2 10 man units as those will most definitely be focussed first.
Counter-Offensive Not sure about this one. but who knows what scenario's come up
Command Re-roll last but not least. no explanation needed. Especially if you have a S10 AP-5 D6 Damage Weapon that might only roll 1 shot...
So my point. No shortage of options .
I was also playing with the Idea of dropping the Destroyers since they are only 3, and switch them for more scarabs to make room for a Triarch Stalker instead of the Flayed Ones (only 5 Deathmarks really aren't enough imo).
With a 2k list and only 2 DDA's as your main AT. A Triarch Stalker could really help them out.
You have even got some points left over to get another Immortal, or Deathmark, get the Spyder a Gloom Prism or a Warscythe for the lord (or Voidreaper with the -1CP strat) or switch the repaircloak for a 5++ on the cryptek if you think 3+/2+cover saves aren't enough. Or just more Scarabs.
Maybe I'm overthinking this list though. But I do enjoy playing around with this ^^.
Extermination Protocol obviously. Honestly see this going off 1 turn before the destroyers get shot down being only 3 models.
Methodical Destruction: have toyed around with this, but its not as great as it feels for 2cp. mwbd is amazing because it not only makes 5+6 proc, but 2+ to hit aswell. just making 4/5/6 proc and has to be a unit you already shot, doesnt seem too great for 2cp
Solar Pulse: yes, this is good but couldnt help wonder how much higher ap models you can fit in outside this style list.
Quantum Deflection: agree, should be used every turn to try and keep some fire power alive
Damage Control: used this before, but with only 2 doomsday arks, they should blow the one up with out deflection, and other should be on good wounds
Ressurection Protocols: personally not sold on this one outside a command barge with a lightning sheild.
Insane Bravery: with only 2 full sized units, will probally be wiped out in a turn.
Counter-Offensive: worthless in this list
Command Re-roll: Probally one the main ones to use.
Finally got in a (semi) legit game yesterday. I say semi because I had 2500 points vs. two of my Tau buddies. Figured I'd share some of my thoughts. My list is as follows:
Spoiler:
Battle-forged (+3 CP)
Battalion detachment (+3 CP)
Sautekh Dynasty
Imotekh (Warlord, Hyperlogical Strategist, +1 CP)
Lord (Res Orb, Staff of Light)
Cryptek (Staff of Light, Chronometron, Relic: Abyssal Staff)
20x Warriors
20x Warriors
10x Gauss Immortals
10x Tesla Immortals
The opposition was about 4 min units of Stealth suits, a HBC Riptide, Sniper drones, Farsight, Shadowsun, strike teams, a Devilfish with Breachers, Bomber (forget the name), Barracuda (forgeworld), 2 Broadsides, Cadre Fireblade, Farsight Sniper dude, marker drones, and I think that's it.
Game type was Malestrom: Cloak and Shadow. Deployment was Hammer and Anvil. I finished first and got first turn, they failed to seize. I wanted to use the -1 Penalty for range due to the scenario to my advantage, so I advanced slowly up the board instead of rushing. Turn 1 I got the Endless Legions objective, which was a great start (that's the one where you count the number of RPs you make, and once you get 10 you get a point).
Even with double MWBD, Lord's Rerolls, and using a CP on Imotekh's Storm turn one (which I failed both times), my rolls were garbage the entire game. Hitting on 3s and hitting with less than half was the norm. However, I did get back about 4-5 CPs with the warlord trait which was nice. I managed first blood with my destroyers using Extermination protocols against his Stealth Suits that he infiltrated. Both T'au opponents more or less stayed bunkered down until the final turn, except for their fliers that ran up. Turn two I drew the "Kill a flier" objective, so using the Abyssal staff I guaranteed some mortal wounds to the flier (which was right next to all my stuff), used Methodical Destruction, and blew it out of the sky with ease. It then blew up, hurt Imotekh, my Ark, and a Destroyer.
As far as objectives go, I stayed only mildly in the lead until turn 6, in which I killed Shadowsun (with the abyssal staff), and got my Tomb Blades in point blank range to some Firewarriors. I got a total of 3 points that turn, and at the end Imotekh was still alive and thus my Dust and Ashes gave me another point. They killed 1 squad of Warriors, 1 squad of Immortals, both fliers (one was charged by Farsight himself, and I overwatched and got TWO wounds with the Death Ray, only for him to pass both invulns), and 2 Destroyers. They called it when Farsight died and they had a handful of models left on the board. One of the players spent most of his CPs lighting my units up to avoid the -1 penalty.
Here are my thoughts of how everything performed.
Spoiler:
Imotekh: Solid, I like the double MWBD, his lighting, his warlord trait, and his shooting attack. But I'm also biased because I've always liked him.
Lord: Meh. Res Orb helped in this case, but otherwise his rerolls hardly mattered.
Cryptek: Abyssal Staff is a good deterrent from things getting too close. I like it a lot.
Warriors: Too Squishy. I don't feel they're worth it anymore, except maybe in a Ghost Ark. Even with the -1 to hit me a lot of the time they still died in droves.
Immortals: Solid. Both variants contributed a good amount during the game.
Tomb Blades: Super annoying for the opponent, double so with this game type with multiple penalties to shooting them. This is the first game where they have not only remained alive at the end of the game, but at full strength.
Destroyers: Decent shooting, but too squishy. Shadowsun just shot ONCE at them and took two out. So, overall not sure I'll use too many.
Doom Scythes: Even with Sautekh, I don't feel they contributed a lot. Granted, yes, my rolls were garbage, as I stated. But still. One got lucky and dealt a huge blow to the Barracuda one turn, but that's it.
Doomsday Ark: Still solid. I actually played it a bit more aggressively with Sautekh, moving it up to also take advantage of the Gauss Flayers. It did well.
Overall though, I feel things are too squishy. The Chronometron didn't do hardly anything. And I whole-heartedly believe the only reason I won was because of the game time. If it wasn't for that, I probably would've been creamed.
Void Dragon damn, that's a good list.
Agreed, it really needs to have at least one more Destroyer.
Where to get the points from, though...
(a note on Flayed One usage: you can always hold them back as a clutch objective grabber. Same with Deathmarks, but they do have their better use as alpha counter punchers).
Drop imotekh and some immo if you need more destroyers.
Imotekh is way too good with this kind of strategy. With all the things he brings to the table, he is the last unit I would cut.
With that said, I honestly don't see anywhere to effectively cut points outside of reducing the max squads of Immortals. You can also switch out a squad of Deathmarks for Flayed Ones or the Spyder for a Heavy Destroyer, saving 10 and 13 points respectively, but the strategical impact of it may not be worth doing so. Maybe we just go with this list until a point reduction comes along lol.
I agree if you need to cut point Immotek is the only way to go. (Although i don't need him since i auto-include a C'Tan for my MW source).
I get the double 10-tesla +2 to hit, it's gonna rock. Up to you to see if you don,t prefer extra 3XS6Ap-3D3w
Plus a vanilla overlord can have the hyperlogical strategist trait. That's average +4CP.
Still tinkering around with what list I want to run with; I know for sure Nephrekh is my dynasty of choice, and I reaaaally want to find a way to make lychguard work even though I know they're not the most efficient choice. I figure my best bet is to use them as a second wave to follow up on the much faster wraiths. Any thoughts?
Move and Advance the Wraiths, and outfit either a lord or a cryptek with the veil of darkness, teleport them 9 inches away and try to charge with them, with wraith backup, they should live, since the wraiths are scarier. Cryptek will help them get up easier or give them a 5++ vs shooting with chrono, or a lord lets them reroll 1s to wound, making them a LOT more killy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I posted up a generalist list on the army lists page, but didn't get any feedback. Wondering what you all think for a "Not list tailoring, random pick up game" kind of list?
Overall though, I feel things are too squishy. The Chronometron didn't do hardly anything. And I whole-heartedly believe the only reason I won was because of the game time. If it wasn't for that, I probably would've been creamed.
Kind of how I predicted it. Warriors don't need a 5++ against ranged attacks. I wonder how Szeras would have functioned in your list, upgrading those Warriors/Immortals to T5 or BS 2+. With a lot of CP and Imothekh/Sautekh WL, you can afford to re-roll his upgrade more often incase you get +1S.
Overall though, I feel things are too squishy. The Chronometron didn't do hardly anything. And I whole-heartedly believe the only reason I won was because of the game time. If it wasn't for that, I probably would've been creamed.
Kind of how I predicted it. Warriors don't need a 5++ against ranged attacks. I wonder how Szeras would have functioned in your list, upgrading those Warriors/Immortals to T5 or BS 2+. With a lot of CP and Imothekh/Sautekh WL, you can afford to re-roll his upgrade more often incase you get +1S.
Good point, yeah. He would've been a better choice, easily. And the Lord could've taken the Abyssal Staff (because I really like it).
I'm tinkering with a list that includes Szeras and Anrakyr to help buff out my 40 warriors + 10 immortals blob. They will have Ghost Ark support + Lord with Veil if anything gets tied up. It will be Mephrit Dynasty.
I then have a Nephrek Outrider detachment with 5 +1 heavy destroyers in deep strike and 4 wraiths and 2 min squads of scarabs as screen.
Also have a DDA in the Mephrit. Only 2 vehicles in the list, which concerns me some, but hopefully QS and the buffing strategem can save my vehicles for a few turns.
I realized halfway through the event that the Vault can't use the DS from Nephrekh, but it didn't come up. Should have just went Sautekh for the Methodical Destruction buff.
Went 1-2, but could have easily won the last two games if I played a bit better. Also two of the lists I played against are stupid and should get nerfed in the FAQ. List is fairly solid, Vault is really good.
First game beat a Necron player with a mishmash of models (he was the ringer).
Then, I misdeployed against Flyrantspam, losing two of my Immortal units on turn 1 (also probably shouldn't have given him T1, but he kept all of his Flyrants off the table so I couldn't shoot anything). I was actually going to win but I told him we could play into the break if he wanted to get the final turn in, and his dice went crazy, taking out half my army with the few models he had left. Oops. Mistakes were made.
Final game played against Poxwalker bomb stuff. I actually could have easily won on T1 by killing the Poxwalker unit before it got buffed, but he Seized and made it nearly invincible. Still managed to nearly get it with just C'tan powers alone. Still, was a very close game and only lost by 1 point, which I could have made up if the game went past T3 since I was saving my secondaries for my later turns.
Vault only died once, but that was after it helped drop 5 Flyrants, doing something like ~15 MWs between all its powers in a turn after 5 Flyrants charged it and failed to kill it, and then got Cosmic Fire'd in the face. It's really solid, but not OP in my opinion. The MWs are good, but it can't table entire units by itself all the time. Honestly I think the 6 man Destroyer squad did more work over the game, especially since I got back the CP with Hyperlogical Strategist nearly half the times I used Extermination Protocols.
I might switch one of the Immortals to Gauss, or potentially even drop a few to get more Wraiths/Scarabs since I felt that my Screening wasn't as strong as it could have been.
Deceiver Bomb the Vault. Veil up the Chronotek and Immortals - who get MWBD tossed on them. Deep Strike the Destroyers. Tunnel in the Sentinels. That is a lot of stuff in the enemy's face very early, but I am not sure that is actually a worthwhile strategy at all! The Scarabs just form a perimeter for the Cloaktek and keep my CP re-generator safe and hold backfield objectives or whatever.
Definitely not sold on the Overlord. I know being able to proc Tesla on 5+ is nice to clear chaff, but I am just not sure, but he likely will not get up field fast enough to do much else all game.
Thoughts? Ideas? How do I make this not awful and actually work?
Deceiver Bomb the Vault. Veil up the Chronotek and Immortals - who get MWBD tossed on them. Deep Strike the Destroyers. Tunnel in the Sentinels. That is a lot of stuff in the enemy's face very early, but I am not sure that is actually a worthwhile strategy at all! The Scarabs just form a perimeter for the Cloaktek and keep my CP re-generator safe and hold backfield objectives or whatever.
Definitely not sold on the Overlord. I know being able to proc Tesla on 5+ is nice to clear chaff, but I am just not sure, but he likely will not get up field fast enough to do much else all game.
Thoughts? Ideas? How do I make this not awful and actually work?
I recommend taking that detachement with Immortal as Merphrit Dynasty, imho, the Deceiver Ctan is perfect combo with Merphrit Immortals, making them within 12" of the enemy early on instead letting them march 5+D6/6" per turn to take at least two turns to get within "devastating range".
I recommend taking that detachement with Immortal as Merphrit Dynasty, imho, the Deceiver Ctan is perfect combo with Merphrit Immortals, making them within 12" of the enemy early on instead letting them march 5+D6/6" per turn to take at least two turns to get within "devastating range".
They are going to be brought up field with Veil. And if I do go Mephrit, I lose Hyperlogical Strategist as well.
So I'm doing the damage chart now. And is Destroyer Lord just utter garbage? Destroyers are infantry already so his ability is just worse than Lord? What? I guess he can keep up with destroyers? But usually won't run so a lord could do it too.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So I'm doing the damage chart now. And is Destroyer Lord just utter garbage? Destroyers are infantry already so his ability is just worse than Lord? What? I guess he can keep up with destroyers? But usually won't run so a lord could do it too.
Yeah, he really needed a better aura ability (like maybe the Lord should have had the "infantry reroll 1s to wound in shooting" and the D.Lord should have been the flat "reroll 1s to wound" aura. Then he might have been more useful to CC lists. Right now if he's used he pretty much operates by himself, his ability never coming into play, despite having the cost included in his points).
Yeah the Dlords aura is fairly pointless. I think he has a role as HQ to put in a detachment that doesn't match the rest of your list. So if you have a Sautekh battalion and a nephrek outrider the HQ of the outrider can't buff the rest of the army anyway so he might as well be able to operate solo. The Dlord is an alternative to a 76pt lord tax- more expensive but actually does something.
In other news: Reecius posted this in a comments section on frontline gaming:
"OK guys, got an answer for everyone. The units coming out of a Night Scythe or Monolith can indeed move again after being placed on the table as we thought. Now of course, that is not official but I can assure you all that that is the right way to read the rule.
So, carry on!"
Presumably he spoke to someone at GW. Hopefully it will be in the FAQ.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah the Dlords aura is fairly pointless. I think he has a role as HQ to put in a detachment that doesn't match the rest of your list. So if you have a Sautekh battalion and a nephrek outrider the HQ of the outrider can't buff the rest of the army anyway so he might as well be able to operate solo. The Dlord is an alternative to a 76pt lord tax- more expensive but actually does something.
In other news: Reecius posted this in a comments section on frontline gaming:
"OK guys, got an answer for everyone. The units coming out of a Night Scythe or Monolith can indeed move again after being placed on the table as we thought. Now of course, that is not official but I can assure you all that that is the right way to read the rule.
So, carry on!"
Presumably he spoke to someone at GW. Hopefully it will be in the FAQ.
FINALLY. Honestly would become worth using NScythes (Monos still too expensive). People were arguing that it worked that way currently, but the wording is pretty clear in the Codex. I'd love an official FAQ tho.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah the Dlords aura is fairly pointless. I think he has a role as HQ to put in a detachment that doesn't match the rest of your list. So if you have a Sautekh battalion and a nephrek outrider the HQ of the outrider can't buff the rest of the army anyway so he might as well be able to operate solo. The Dlord is an alternative to a 76pt lord tax- more expensive but actually does something.
In other news: Reecius posted this in a comments section on frontline gaming:
"OK guys, got an answer for everyone. The units coming out of a Night Scythe or Monolith can indeed move again after being placed on the table as we thought. Now of course, that is not official but I can assure you all that that is the right way to read the rule.
So, carry on!"
Presumably he spoke to someone at GW. Hopefully it will be in the FAQ.
FINALLY. Honestly would become worth using NScythes (Monos still too expensive). People were arguing that it worked that way currently, but the wording is pretty clear in the Codex. I'd love an official FAQ tho.
Meh, I love my fliers but have not and probably will not field a Night Scythe, even with the FAQ. They are too easily killed for their points cost, have the potential to auto-kill your units that you leave behind, and to get around that you have to spend precious CPs. For cheaper I could bring an A-barge with arguably better survivability, better firepower, and for cheaper.
I recommend taking that detachement with Immortal as Merphrit Dynasty, imho, the Deceiver Ctan is perfect combo with Merphrit Immortals, making them within 12" of the enemy early on instead letting them march 5+D6/6" per turn to take at least two turns to get within "devastating range".
They are going to be brought up field with Veil. And if I do go Mephrit, I lose Hyperlogical Strategist as well.
Your 2nd Outrider Detachment can be kept as Sautekh anyway. Just the 1st one is worth considering changing. I think unless you combine the 3 Scarabs units into 1 or 2 big units, the Nephrekh only benefit is the Translocation Crypt Stratagem, which you can do better with Deceiver's Grand Illusion.......
Doctoralex wrote: Welp, with the deep-strike turn 1 nerf we can Kiss the Nephrekh Dynasty goodbye!
Nah, still viable. DS is still worthwhile for keeping your Destroyers safe from Artillery that can gib them on T1, and the advance buff is good for mobility on ObSec units or Wraiths with the stratagem.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah the Dlords aura is fairly pointless. I think he has a role as HQ to put in a detachment that doesn't match the rest of your list. So if you have a Sautekh battalion and a nephrek outrider the HQ of the outrider can't buff the rest of the army anyway so he might as well be able to operate solo. The Dlord is an alternative to a 76pt lord tax- more expensive but actually does something.
In other news: Reecius posted this in a comments section on frontline gaming:
"OK guys, got an answer for everyone. The units coming out of a Night Scythe or Monolith can indeed move again after being placed on the table as we thought. Now of course, that is not official but I can assure you all that that is the right way to read the rule.
So, carry on!"
Presumably he spoke to someone at GW. Hopefully it will be in the FAQ.
FINALLY. Honestly would become worth using NScythes (Monos still too expensive). People were arguing that it worked that way currently, but the wording is pretty clear in the Codex. I'd love an official FAQ tho.
Meh, I love my fliers but have not and probably will not field a Night Scythe, even with the FAQ. They are too easily killed for their points cost, have the potential to auto-kill your units that you leave behind, and to get around that you have to spend precious CPs. For cheaper I could bring an A-barge with arguably better survivability, better firepower, and for cheaper.
With the new beta rules the N scythe actually looks quite appealing. If we cant DS across the board until turn 2 then using these for alpha strikes will be pretty good. especially if we can move after coming out (Kutlakh, Scytheguard will atleast be more fun now).
I recommend taking that detachement with Immortal as Merphrit Dynasty, imho, the Deceiver Ctan is perfect combo with Merphrit Immortals, making them within 12" of the enemy early on instead letting them march 5+D6/6" per turn to take at least two turns to get within "devastating range".
They are going to be brought up field with Veil. And if I do go Mephrit, I lose Hyperlogical Strategist as well.
Your 2nd Outrider Detachment can be kept as Sautekh anyway. Just the 1st one is worth considering changing. I think unless you combine the 3 Scarabs units into 1 or 2 big units, the Nephrekh only benefit is the Translocation Crypt Stratagem, which you can do better with Deceiver's Grand Illusion.......
Grand Illusion is d3 units. That is not reliable enough - I may only be able to move the Deceiver and Vault, I don't want to hinge the strategy on rolling a 3+ to get another unit. Also, Translocation Crypt enables them to start off the table and thus not able to be nuked before I can get them at least one round of shooting.
Doctoralex wrote: Welp, with the deep-strike turn 1 nerf we can Kiss the Nephrekh Dynasty goodbye!
Nah, still viable. DS is still worthwhile for keeping your Destroyers safe from Artillery that can gib them on T1, and the advance buff is good for mobility on ObSec units or Wraiths with the stratagem.
Plus they DO still have 24" of range. It's only a mild hit but the strategy is still gold.
With the new beta rules the N scythe actually looks quite appealing. If we cant DS across the board until turn 2 then using these for alpha strikes will be pretty good. especially if we can move after coming out (Kutlakh, Scytheguard will atleast be more fun now).
Apparently I missed something. We can't Deepstrike turn 1 anymore? Also, Night Scythes can't disembark their dudes unless it's the start of their turn, right? Which means, it's irrelevant.
Requizen wrote: Went to an RTT yesterday, with:
I realized halfway through the event that the Vault can't use the DS from Nephrekh, but it didn't come up. Should have just went Sautekh for the Methodical Destruction buff.
It can't benefit from dynastic codes, doesn't say anything about stratagems, does it?
Don't expect any direct help from the FAQ folks. Looks like it's hitting other armies with restrictions, but nothing coming in to assist us lowly necrons.
punisher357 wrote: So now the FAQ has hit, but the website has crashed due to volume......
Has anyone seen anything solid helping crons out? I'm really hoping for some point cost decreases
The Necron specific FAQ is a single page...
Spoiler:
ERRATA
Pages 87 and 99 – Catacomb Command Barge and
Annihilation Barge, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Hovering: Instead of measuring distances and ranges
to and from this model’s base, measure to and from this
model’s hull or base (whichever is closer).’
Page 112 – Methodical Destruction
Change the rules text to read:
‘Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your
army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted
in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds. Add 1 to
hit rolls for attacks made by other Sautekh units from
your army that target the same enemy unit this phase.’
Page 117 – Named Characters and Warlord Traits
Add the following sentence to the end of the paragraph:
‘If either Illuminor Szeras or Anrakyr the Traveller is
your Warlord, then replace the <Dynasty> keyword in
their Warlord Trait with Necron.’
Page 118 – Points Values
Move the entries for Deathmarks and Lychguard from
the ‘Troops’ section into the ‘Elites’ section.
FAQs Q: Can C’tan Shards use a Power of the C’tan while within
1" of an enemy model?
A: Yes.
Q: Can a Triarch Stalker use its Targeting Relay ability to re-
roll hit rolls of 1 for its own attacks after the first?
A: No.
... pretty lame.
[edit] Ninja'd.
Anyway,
As far as things from the big FAQ that affect us,
HOLY MOLY
DETACHMENT COMMAND BENEFITS
When creating a Battle-forged army, the Battalion and Brigade Detachments are seen as not offering enough
command points for the number of units you must include. As a result, we will increase the Battalion Detachment’s
Command Benefits to +5 Command Points and the Brigade Detachment’s to +12 Command Points. These changes
appear in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook errata, but are shown below for convenience.
Related Errata
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook Page 243 – Battalion Detachment, Command Benefits
Change this Detachment’s command benefits to read ‘+5 Command Points.’
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook Page 243 – Brigade Detachment, Command Benefits
Change this Detachment’s command benefits to read ‘+12 Command Points.’
DETACHMENT COMMAND BENEFITS
When creating a Battle-forged army, the Battalion and Brigade Detachments are seen as not offering enough
command points for the number of units you must include. As a result, we will increase the Battalion Detachment’s
Command Benefits to +5 Command Points and the Brigade Detachment’s to +12 Command Points. These changes
appear in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook errata, but are shown below for convenience.
Related Errata
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook Page 243 – Battalion Detachment, Command Benefits
Change this Detachment’s command benefits to read ‘+5 Command Points.’
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook Page 243 – Brigade Detachment, Command Benefits
Change this Detachment’s command benefits to read ‘+12 Command Points.’
Shouldn't affect us much, we normally stick to our minimum detachment requirements. But at least we don't need to worry as much about certain builds anymore.
Shouldn't affect us much, we normally stick to our minimum detachment requirements. But at least we don't need to worry as much about certain builds anymore.
The only unit I see being affected is Scarabs. Its our only "spam" unit but 2 units in 1000pts or less should be more then enough. We just need to make them max sizes. Also, it means if using an Outrider at 1000pts or less you will need to pick a 3rd Fast option.
Shouldn't affect us much, we normally stick to our minimum detachment requirements. But at least we don't need to worry as much about certain builds anymore.
The deep strike changes are so good for us, now we can zone out deep strikers despite not having scouts or the like. now first turn scarabs just advance and deep strikers can just sod themselves. It doesn't really affect nephrek destroyer drops because those generally only happened when HVTs exposed themselves which was generally our second turn anyway.
What's the wording on including leman russes and carnifexes... It says cannot include data sheet more than three times.. are they included three times even if they are one drop?
The +2 CP is pretty huge now, and it's going to be much harder to pass up on that Sautekh warlord since we will in essence have up to 15 CP to play with. Pretty insane.
With all the reports about how good Imotekh is I may have to consider him now as well.
I was really hoping for some more point cost decreases. Guess that won't be happening any time soon.
I'm curious how the changes to the CP structure and the limitations on multiple detachments will affect the meta. I think it's a move in the right direction to eliminate unreasonable min-maxing
Grimgold wrote: The deep strike changes are so good for us, now we can zone out deep strikers despite not having scouts or the like. now first turn scarabs just advance and deep strikers can just sod themselves. It doesn't really affect nephrek destroyer drops because those generally only happened when HVTs exposed themselves which was generally our second turn anyway.
Oh wow I just noticed that. That does give alpha strikes a bit of a hit.
Was there always a power level restraint? That's a new one to me.
torblind wrote: What's the wording on including leman russes and carnifexes... It says cannot include data sheet more than three times.. are they included three times even if they are one drop?
So it says that you can't include a datasheet "more than 3 times per army"......that is going to be a big hit to spam lists, which I think is a good thing.
You'll still have multiple fexes and russes.....the datasheet allows more than one model per unit right? The fex brood could theoretically include 9 fex models in total for an army.
The FAQ helps in that it kills every major list in the meta. Necrons seem to be doing quite good now so that lifts them up.
Nothing about the overall FAQ really hurts Necrons. They did not go out of their way to stop anything silly like the CCB tricks.
Getting two extra CP from a battalions is a massive buff. Sure other armies are getting a lot more too, but Necrons might rely on CP more than any other army.
Szeras/Anrakyr got a buff with warlord traits. Now you can take Anrakyr in any Dynasty and all nearby units are immune to battleshock, or can re-roll charges.
The Monolith/Night Scythe counts as an alpha strike move right? So they cannot be used to alpha strike. Any Deceiver combos are lost, but then again the Deceiver's ability becomes one of the only alpha strike abilities in the game now.
punisher357 wrote: I was really hoping for some more point cost decreases. Guess that won't be happening any time soon.
I'm curious how the changes to the CP structure and the limitations on multiple detachments will affect the meta. I think it's a move in the right direction to eliminate unreasonable min-maxing
Its too early for a points cut. The necron codex was released like 2 weeks ago.
Wait until CA approved or the end of year big FAQ.
So, with deepstriking now confined to your deployment zone until turn 2. How does it affect Deathmarks and how they intercept DS. Do we still get to intercept and therefore, allowed to DS into our opponents deployment zone? If so then Deathmarks are now way more usable and "spammy"
Odrankt wrote: So, with deepstriking now confined to your deployment zone until turn 2. How does it affect Deathmarks and how they intercept DS. Do we still get to intercept and therefore, allowed to DS into our opponents deployment zone? If so then Deathmarks are now way more usable and "spammy"
Huh, that's a good question. It would be hilarious if they could break that rule.
Odrankt wrote: So, with deepstriking now confined to your deployment zone until turn 2. How does it affect Deathmarks and how they intercept DS. Do we still get to intercept and therefore, allowed to DS into our opponents deployment zone? If so then Deathmarks are now way more usable and "spammy"
RAW it seems that's how it is....RAI I don't think that's how it's meant to be. I wouldn't be surprised to see a separate FAQ for this, but I wouldn't be that surprised to see it stay either. Deathmarks are pretty expensive and not hugely effective....it would be nice for harassment for sure
punisher357 wrote: I was really hoping for some more point cost decreases. Guess that won't be happening any time soon.
I'm curious how the changes to the CP structure and the limitations on multiple detachments will affect the meta. I think it's a move in the right direction to eliminate unreasonable min-maxing
I would not expect any points cost changes until chapter approved.
Necrons are in a really good spot right now with a good chunk of it's units. After this FAQ several top tier armies got heavily nerfed. I would not be suprised to start seeing us toward the top tables before too long.
I think that the situational use of the deathmark abillity turn 1 isn't going to be a huge deal, other than to claim line breaker if you can live that long.....it just seems like it'll be rare and not consequential.
punisher357 wrote: I was really hoping for some more point cost decreases. Guess that won't be happening any time soon.
I'm curious how the changes to the CP structure and the limitations on multiple detachments will affect the meta. I think it's a move in the right direction to eliminate unreasonable min-maxing
I would not expect any points cost changes until chapter approved.
Necrons are in a really good spot right now with a good chunk of it's units. After this FAQ several top tier armies got heavily nerfed. I would not be suprised to start seeing us toward the top tables before too long.
I think you're right. I don't know about claiming top tables, but it definitely takes us from the bottom tier and elevates us.
And yet, if WE get turn one, we can rock up to the opponent's deployment zone with the Deceiver, three Vaults, and a Veil'd in unit of something ridiculous (all five/six units started on the table so don't break the turn-two deep strike restriction).
...
Actually, guys, please don't abuse this or we're going to get the Nerf hammer big time come Chapter Approved
Isn't the deepstrike rule only a beta rule right now? I'm a fan of it for the game overall, but it's terrible for the monolith. 380 + often 200 and above points is way too much to keep off the table for so long, especially with the delayed deployment of the unit within the monolith.
I hope it will come down the road with some monolith changes.
The rest of the FAQ helps us a bunch, I'm a pretty big fan.
Shouldn't affect us much, we normally stick to our minimum detachment requirements. But at least we don't need to worry as much about certain builds anymore.
It makes including a brigade even harder for us, instead of 6 x 5 immortals we now need 3 x 5 immortals and 3 x 10 warriors in the minimum brigade list at 2k due to max of 3 datasheets, an extra 105 points to the minimum brigade cost
Shouldn't affect us much, we normally stick to our minimum detachment requirements. But at least we don't need to worry as much about certain builds anymore.
It makes including a brigade even harder for us, instead of 6 x 5 immortals we now need 3 x 5 immortals and 3 x 10 warriors in the minimum brigade list at 2k due to max of 3 datasheets, an extra 105 points to the minimum brigade cost
na we good! troops & transports are excluded in that rule
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah the Dlords aura is fairly pointless. I think he has a role as HQ to put in a detachment that doesn't match the rest of your list. So if you have a Sautekh battalion and a nephrek outrider the HQ of the outrider can't buff the rest of the army anyway so he might as well be able to operate solo. The Dlord is an alternative to a 76pt lord tax- more expensive but actually does something.
In other news: Reecius posted this in a comments section on frontline gaming:
"OK guys, got an answer for everyone. The units coming out of a Night Scythe or Monolith can indeed move again after being placed on the table as we thought. Now of course, that is not official but I can assure you all that that is the right way to read the rule.
So, carry on!"
Presumably he spoke to someone at GW. Hopefully it will be in the FAQ.
FINALLY. Honestly would become worth using NScythes (Monos still too expensive). People were arguing that it worked that way currently, but the wording is pretty clear in the Codex. I'd love an official FAQ tho.
What's new? We always played that way here. Was pretty clear. Beam up at the START of the movement phase, so the monolith AND the unit can move afterwards. Only way to make sure teleport+charge.
Odrankt wrote: So, with deepstriking now confined to your deployment zone until turn 2. How does it affect Deathmarks and how they intercept DS. Do we still get to intercept and therefore, allowed to DS into our opponents deployment zone? If so then Deathmarks are now way more usable and "spammy"
RAW it seems that's how it is....RAI I don't think that's how it's meant to be. I wouldn't be surprised to see a separate FAQ for this, but I wouldn't be that surprised to see it stay either. Deathmarks are pretty expensive and not hugely effective....it would be nice for harassment for sure
Can I just point out fair enough deathmarks can't intercept units turn 1, but your opponet can't DS in your zone turn 1 anyway they have to wait till turn 2 and then you can deepstrike so the deathmarks haven't really been affected by this as you wouldn't want to counter deepstrike in your opponents table edge turn 1 (due to new limitations) and get smashed
Edit: also rules with specific exceptions are still allowed and ethereal interception states you can't be more then 12inchs away from the enemy unit deployed
So... weird thought, but I feel the CP changes actually devalue tomb blades a bit. We're in kind of a weird spot where Immortals and Tomb Blades fill almost the same exact role, and now that Immortals give a pretty large amount of CP I'm having a hard time fitting tomb blades into a list without giving up on other necessary answers.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah the Dlords aura is fairly pointless. I think he has a role as HQ to put in a detachment that doesn't match the rest of your list. So if you have a Sautekh battalion and a nephrek outrider the HQ of the outrider can't buff the rest of the army anyway so he might as well be able to operate solo. The Dlord is an alternative to a 76pt lord tax- more expensive but actually does something.
In other news: Reecius posted this in a comments section on frontline gaming:
"OK guys, got an answer for everyone. The units coming out of a Night Scythe or Monolith can indeed move again after being placed on the table as we thought. Now of course, that is not official but I can assure you all that that is the right way to read the rule.
So, carry on!"
Presumably he spoke to someone at GW. Hopefully it will be in the FAQ.
FINALLY. Honestly would become worth using NScythes (Monos still too expensive). People were arguing that it worked that way currently, but the wording is pretty clear in the Codex. I'd love an official FAQ tho.
What's new? We always played that way here. Was pretty clear. Beam up at the START of the movement phase, so the monolith AND the unit can move afterwards. Only way to make sure teleport+charge.
Because technically the wording is not that they're disembarking, but rather Tomb World deployment is the same as Reserves, which specifically state that you can not move after you set up from Reserves. But in the long run, it should be played that you can move after coming out, so who knows without an official ruling.
punisher357 wrote: I think that the situational use of the deathmark abillity turn 1 isn't going to be a huge deal, other than to claim line breaker if you can live that long.....it just seems like it'll be rare and not consequential.
punisher357 wrote: I was really hoping for some more point cost decreases. Guess that won't be happening any time soon.
I'm curious how the changes to the CP structure and the limitations on multiple detachments will affect the meta. I think it's a move in the right direction to eliminate unreasonable min-maxing
I would not expect any points cost changes until chapter approved.
Necrons are in a really good spot right now with a good chunk of it's units. After this FAQ several top tier armies got heavily nerfed. I would not be suprised to start seeing us toward the top tables before too long.
I think you're right. I don't know about claiming top tables, but it definitely takes us from the bottom tier and elevates us.
Necrons haven't been bottom tier since the Codex. We were very solid in the Mid Tier, with a Necron list even winning a GT (According to someone in the thread)
punisher357 wrote: I think that the situational use of the deathmark abillity turn 1 isn't going to be a huge deal, other than to claim line breaker if you can live that long.....it just seems like it'll be rare and not consequential.
punisher357 wrote: I was really hoping for some more point cost decreases. Guess that won't be happening any time soon.
I'm curious how the changes to the CP structure and the limitations on multiple detachments will affect the meta. I think it's a move in the right direction to eliminate unreasonable min-maxing
I would not expect any points cost changes until chapter approved.
Necrons are in a really good spot right now with a good chunk of it's units. After this FAQ several top tier armies got heavily nerfed. I would not be suprised to start seeing us toward the top tables before too long.
I think you're right. I don't know about claiming top tables, but it definitely takes us from the bottom tier and elevates us.
Necrons haven't been bottom tier since the Codex. We were very solid in the Mid Tier, with a Necron list even winning a GT (According to someone in the thread)
Dunno how far I'd take that GT win. It was a fairly small 5 rounder with no big names right after the book came out, winner used a Vault and I don't think people were prepared for it. Still, 5-0 is impressive so I think it's at least somewhat telling. We're up there, especially since we were not relying on anything that got nerfed in the FAQ.
Monolith can beam a unit already on the table, so would circumvent the alpha drop BETA rule.
By the way only rule in effect are 5CP 12CP.
All the rest are beta, anti-spam is a suggestion for TO (would keep troops out of it though, how can we do a brigade with 6 troop type if we are restreined in 2 units of warriors and immortals?)
Da W wrote: Monolith can beam a unit already on the table, so would circumvent the alpha drop BETA rule.
Actually no:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
Since it's "as reinforcements", if it's T1 it has to be in your DZ. Also breaks Veil Alphas.
Da W wrote: By the way only rule in effect are 5CP 12CP.
All the rest are beta, anti-spam is a suggestion for TO (would keep troops out of it though, how can we do a brigade with 6 troop type if we are restreined in 2 units of warriors and immortals?)
"Recommended Beta Rules" basically reads the same as "Everyone who cares about events will play with these since every event will use them".
Arachnofiend wrote: So... weird thought, but I feel the CP changes actually devalue tomb blades a bit. We're in kind of a weird spot where Immortals and Tomb Blades fill almost the same exact role, and now that Immortals give a pretty large amount of CP I'm having a hard time fitting tomb blades into a list without giving up on other necessary answers.
Agreed.
The additional CP generated from a battalion and Szeras warlord changes are making me lean towards a mixed infantry heavy list. Give them Sautekh(Warriors/G. Immortals) or Nephrekh(T. Immortals) to overcome the movement issues with advance, and you have a decent base to build around.
Also, with the changes to DS, I think a build around the Deceiver is even more attractive for us.
Da W wrote: By the way only rule in effect are 5CP 12CP.
All the rest are beta, anti-spam is a suggestion for TO (would keep troops out of it though, how can we do a brigade with 6 troop type if we are restreined in 2 units of warriors and immortals?)
"Recommended Beta Rules" basically reads the same as "Everyone who cares about events will play with these since every event will use them".
We must not live on the same part of the planet. Sad for you if TO enforce BETA rules.
Odrankt wrote: So, with deepstriking now confined to your deployment zone until turn 2. How does it affect Deathmarks and how they intercept DS. Do we still get to intercept and therefore, allowed to DS into our opponents deployment zone? If so then Deathmarks are now way more usable and "spammy"
RAW it seems that's how it is....RAI I don't think that's how it's meant to be. I wouldn't be surprised to see a separate FAQ for this, but I wouldn't be that surprised to see it stay either. Deathmarks are pretty expensive and not hugely effective....it would be nice for harassment for sure
Can I just point out fair enough deathmarks can't intercept units turn 1, but your opponet can't DS in your zone turn 1 anyway they have to wait till turn 2 and then you can deepstrike so the deathmarks haven't really been affected by this as you wouldn't want to counter deepstrike in your opponents table edge turn 1 (due to new limitations) and get smashed
Edit: also rules with specific exceptions are still allowed and ethereal interception states you can't be more then 12inchs away from the enemy unit deployed
Good catch....this basically eliminates any wondering.....they can function exactly as normal and chances are you'll never be able to intercept something that deepstrikes into the enemy deployment zone first turn anyway
Da W wrote: Monolith can beam a unit already on the table, so would circumvent the alpha drop BETA rule.
Actually no:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
Since it's "as reinforcements", if it's T1 it has to be in your DZ. Also breaks Veil Alphas.
for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons
So far i consider the monolith stratagem not being faqed
Da W wrote: Monolith can beam a unit already on the table, so would circumvent the alpha drop BETA rule.
Actually no:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
Since it's "as reinforcements", if it's T1 it has to be in your DZ. Also breaks Veil Alphas.
Dimensional corridor still works. Its considered dismbarking from a transport. So, deceiver -> monolith -> TDC Alpha could work.
Da W wrote: By the way only rule in effect are 5CP 12CP.
All the rest are beta, anti-spam is a suggestion for TO (would keep troops out of it though, how can we do a brigade with 6 troop type if we are restreined in 2 units of warriors and immortals?)
"Recommended Beta Rules" basically reads the same as "Everyone who cares about events will play with these since every event will use them".
We must not live on the same part of the planet. Sad for you if TO enforce BETA rules.
GW: Please test these rules in a tournament format, since they will likely become real rules much like the Smite rule and the Character Targeting rule.
TO: Hahaha why would we ever do that?
????
Of course TOs are going to use these. Every tournament used the previous Beta rules the second they were announced.
Da W wrote: Monolith can beam a unit already on the table, so would circumvent the alpha drop BETA rule.
Actually no:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
Since it's "as reinforcements", if it's T1 it has to be in your DZ. Also breaks Veil Alphas.
for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons
So far i consider the monolith stratagem not being faqed
What is confusing about "Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements."? If they're arriving as if reinforcements, and it's Turn 1, and the new rule states that you can't Reserve outside your DZ on Turn 1....
...?
So far in think the FAQ hasn't nerfed us. The things it's affected we weren't using (besides the VOD alpha strike which I personally never used) so I think the FAQ is a boon for us, although I would've liked them to give the TV the hover rule...
Aza'Gorod wrote: So far in think the FAQ hasn't nerfed us. The things it's affected we weren't using (besides the VOD alpha strike which I personally never used) so I think the FAQ is a boon for us, although I would've liked them to give the TV the hover rule...
Oh 100% agree. Our strong stuff didn't get touched, the crazy lists we were losing against got ripped apart. I think we're in a great spot.
Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No.
This almost hurt MWBD +Veil, but it's an artifact, so we're good.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So far in think the FAQ hasn't nerfed us. The things it's affected we weren't using (besides the VOD alpha strike which I personally never used) so I think the FAQ is a boon for us, although I would've liked them to give the TV the hover rule...
Nephrekh Destroyers got nerfed, but I'd happily trade that for not having to worry about getting immediately boxed into my deployment zone by enemy deep strikers.
Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’.
When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment
step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are
used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.
You can wait till start of deployment before deciding CTan powers. Eg consider your enemy and the mission.
Okay, so I had a crazy idea and I haven't found anything that says that this isn't possible, so correct me if I am wrong.
It says in our Codex "If your army is Battle-forged, units with the appropriate keyword will receive the corresponding Dynastic Code, detailed opposite, so long as every other unit in their Detachment is from the same dynasty", so this gives us the option to opt out of any Dynastic Codes to include multiple Dynasties in one Detachment. Normally this would be a horrible idea, but if we consider the Brigade Detachment list from earlier and the Sautekh's lackluster Dynastic Code, things get a bit interesting.
Stratagems only say that our armies have to be Battle-Forged to use them, and the restrictions for Dynasty specific Stratagems are only for the unit to have the corresponding Dynasty Keyword, not for the Dynastic Code to be active. Theoretically, if we give up the Sautekh Dynastic Code, we could include a unit of Nephrekh Destroyers in our Brigade and still be able to use the Sautekh Methodical Destruction as well as the Nephrekh Translocation Crypt to DS the Destroyers. This also gives us the option of making any of our Gauss Blaster Immortal and Canoptek Scarabs units Nephrekh as well, allowing them to DS directly onto objectives, and advantageous shooting positions respective to Immortals.
If this is possible, the ultimate decision would be if giving up the Sautekh Dynastic Code would be worth the ability to DS the Destroyers and other units, which I think could very well be.
Q: I choose my Overlord on a Catacomb Command Barge to be
my Warlord, and give him the Enduring Will trait. He then gets
shot by a lascannon that hits, wounds, isn’t saved and causes
4 points of damage. How do I apply Quantum Shielding and
Enduring Will?
A: Resolve the Quantum Shielding ability first. If any
damage is suffered, the Enduring Will trait then applies.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So far in think the FAQ hasn't nerfed us. The things it's affected we weren't using (besides the VOD alpha strike which I personally never used) so I think the FAQ is a boon for us, although I would've liked them to give the TV the hover rule...
VOD isn't affected by the new deepstrike rules. It happens at the end of the movement phase of the first turn and involves units already on the board. The new deepstrike rules just specify that any unit that ARRIVES on the board during your first turn must be "wholly" within the controlling player's deployment zone.
Now that DS Alpha is less big, Scouts and Nurglings will be less prevalent. That is a buff for Deceiver, since there'll be less things zoning him and his units off.
Now that DS Alpha is less big, Scouts and Nurglings will be less prevalent. That is a buff for Deceiver, since there'll be less things zoning him and his units off.
funny enough i was just thinking about the effect of that. Think im still going to screen because of the world eaters charging beserkers and such. but prob see a cut back in people screening now
torblind wrote: Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No.
This almost hurt MWBD +Veil, but it's an artifact, so we're good.
torblind wrote: Aren't scouts still going to be able to do their thing?
They will, but they're tougher to fit in now (No more Celestine + 3 Scouts) and they'll be less important as most T1 strikes are hit hard. I know my Marines will still use Scouts fine at least.
torblind wrote: Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No.
This almost hurt MWBD +Veil, but it's an artifact, so we're good.
Don't expect that loophole to survive.
Could Illuminor Szeras' Mechanical Augmentation be seen as a "Persistent effect" (hope not, and think not), and what about Zahndrekh's Transient Madness, are those "Persistent effects"?
Da W wrote: By the way only rule in effect are 5CP 12CP.
All the rest are beta, anti-spam is a suggestion for TO (would keep troops out of it though, how can we do a brigade with 6 troop type if we are restreined in 2 units of warriors and immortals?)
"Recommended Beta Rules" basically reads the same as "Everyone who cares about events will play with these since every event will use them".
We must not live on the same part of the planet. Sad for you if TO enforce BETA rules.
GW: Please test these rules in a tournament format, since they will likely become real rules much like the Smite rule and the Character Targeting rule.
TO: Hahaha why would we ever do that?
????
Of course TOs are going to use these. Every tournament used the previous Beta rules the second they were announced.
Da W wrote: Monolith can beam a unit already on the table, so would circumvent the alpha drop BETA rule.
Actually no:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
Since it's "as reinforcements", if it's T1 it has to be in your DZ. Also breaks Veil Alphas.
for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons
So far i consider the monolith stratagem not being faqed
What is confusing about "Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements."? If they're arriving as if reinforcements, and it's Turn 1, and the new rule states that you can't Reserve outside your DZ on Turn 1....
...?
Learn to read. The end of the question being asked is about heavy weapons -1 penalty.
"matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
Does the unit arrive during the first turn? Well, yes, it started the battle on the field during the first turn, all the units on the field during the first turn have "arrived" on this turn. I suppose that does mean that you can't use the veil to move something up during the first turn because the veil says
"When they do, the bearer, and up to one friendly <DYNASTY> INFANTRY unit within 3" of the bearer, are removed from the battlefield. Then, set up the bearer (and the second unit you chose, if any) anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models (the second unit must be set up wholly within 6" of the bearer)."
This is pretty much exactly called out by the rule. Your taking them from the battlefield and placing them whereever you want, but since they arrived this turn (turn 1) it can only be in your deployment zone. Lame but what ever.
Hobby question: Anyone with a Tesseract Vault magnetized it? Right now I've just pushed the "arms" in to hold with pressure, but I think it's possible to get a magnet into the slots so you can pop them on and off with no problem. Anyone done this?
Requizen wrote: Hobby question: Anyone with a Tesseract Vault magnetized it? Right now I've just pushed the "arms" in to hold with pressure, but I think it's possible to get a magnet into the slots so you can pop them on and off with no problem. Anyone done this?
I have, largely followed the tutorial by IDICBeer.
It's ok ish. Should have used stronger magnets on the big wires. (I used 1/4" x 1/8")
Requizen wrote: Hobby question: Anyone with a Tesseract Vault magnetized it? Right now I've just pushed the "arms" in to hold with pressure, but I think it's possible to get a magnet into the slots so you can pop them on and off with no problem. Anyone done this?
Huh great minds think alike, I was considering doing this as well when I get a vault. Let us know of the results and i hope someone gives good advice.
Additionally if VOD has been nerfed the only viable way I see us to alpha strike is with either deceiver and obyron/zandrekh ghostwalk (expensive) or NS an obyron ( expensive again) as again he must DS within a certain range
Requizen wrote: Hobby question: Anyone with a Tesseract Vault magnetized it? Right now I've just pushed the "arms" in to hold with pressure, but I think it's possible to get a magnet into the slots so you can pop them on and off with no problem. Anyone done this?
I have, largely followed the tutorial by IDICBeer.
It's ok ish. Should have used stronger magnets on the big wires. (I used 1/4" x 1/8")
I saw that one, but that's more for swapping between Obelisk and TVault. I have already built the arms and the core (maybe a mistake but wanted to put it on the table ) and wanted to see how hard it would be to put them together.
Even in 5 pieces (or 6 if you take it off the stand) it's still basically impossible to travel with. This thing is huuuuuge.
"matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
Does the unit arrive during the first turn? Well, yes, it started the battle on the field during the first turn, all the units on the field during the first turn have "arrived" on this turn. I suppose that does mean that you can't use the veil to move something up during the first turn because the veil says
"When they do, the bearer, and up to one friendly <DYNASTY> INFANTRY unit within 3" of the bearer, are removed from the battlefield. Then, set up the bearer (and the second unit you chose, if any) anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models (the second unit must be set up wholly within 6" of the bearer)."
This is pretty much exactly called out by the rule. Your taking them from the battlefield and placing them whereever you want, but since they arrived this turn (turn 1) it can only be in your deployment zone. Lame but what ever.
VOD happens after the movement phase....so after your unit was already deployed within your deployment zone you then use the VOD and move it up. The new Deepstrike rule doesn't affect this.
As a Necron player and a GK player I know which one of my armies will get more game time.
Love the Anakyr and Szeras change.
Overall as well happy because I lost to Drukhari at the weekend. Turn one they dropped in from reserves as well as flew in from over 24in away pinning me in my deployment zone and doing the best impression of shooting metal fish in a barrel while collecting maelstrom points at will.
I have emailed GW regarding the deciever bomb. Though I have another question (might be a dumb question) are tomb sentinels, flayed ones affected like destroyers by the rule about not appearing from reserves turn 1? Not planning on running any just interested.
Diesinthewarp wrote: As a Necron player and a GK player I know which one of my armies will get more game time.
Love the Anakyr and Szeras change.
Overall as well happy because I lost to Drukhari at the weekend. Turn one they dropped in from reserves as well as flew in from over 24in away pinning me in my deployment zone and doing the best impression of shooting metal fish in a barrel while collecting maelstrom points at will.
I have emailed GW regarding the deciever bomb. Though I have another question (might be a dumb question) are tomb sentinels, flayed ones affected like destroyers by the rule about not appearing from reserves turn 1? Not planning on running any just interested.
Yes. They are essentially a deepstrike/reserve unit if that ability is used.
torblind wrote: Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No.
This almost hurt MWBD +Veil, but it's an artifact, so we're good.
Where did you find this question? I downloaded the FAQ and it doesn't seem to have it in there.
torblind wrote: Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No.
This almost hurt MWBD +Veil, but it's an artifact, so we're good.
Where did you find this question? I downloaded the FAQ and it doesn't seem to have it in there.
torblind wrote: Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No.
This almost hurt MWBD +Veil, but it's an artifact, so we're good.
Where did you find this question? I downloaded the FAQ and it doesn't seem to have it in there.
There's a separate one for the rulebook that is not the major FAQ.
As I see it, I now have to bring 8 written works to correctly play my Necrons:
Diesinthewarp wrote: As a Necron player and a GK player I know which one of my armies will get more game time.
Love the Anakyr and Szeras change.
Overall as well happy because I lost to Drukhari at the weekend. Turn one they dropped in from reserves as well as flew in from over 24in away pinning me in my deployment zone and doing the best impression of shooting metal fish in a barrel while collecting maelstrom points at will.
I have emailed GW regarding the deciever bomb. Though I have another question (might be a dumb question) are tomb sentinels, flayed ones affected like destroyers by the rule about not appearing from reserves turn 1? Not planning on running any just interested.
The FAQ doesn't affect deceiver bomb, look at the exception listed it says "this does not apply to units set up after the first battle round begins, but before first turn" this is exactly how deceiver works so it's is exempt.
torblind wrote: Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No.
This almost hurt MWBD +Veil, but it's an artifact, so we're good.
Don't expect that loophole to survive.
Could Illuminor Szeras' Mechanical Augmentation be seen as a "Persistent effect" (hope not, and think not), and what about Zahndrekh's Transient Madness, are those "Persistent effects"?
But these are not stratagems they are abilites on the data card.
"matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
Does the unit arrive during the first turn? Well, yes, it started the battle on the field during the first turn, all the units on the field during the first turn have "arrived" on this turn. I suppose that does mean that you can't use the veil to move something up during the first turn because the veil says
"When they do, the bearer, and up to one friendly <DYNASTY> INFANTRY unit within 3" of the bearer, are removed from the battlefield. Then, set up the bearer (and the second unit you chose, if any) anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models (the second unit must be set up wholly within 6" of the bearer)."
This is pretty much exactly called out by the rule. Your taking them from the battlefield and placing them whereever you want, but since they arrived this turn (turn 1) it can only be in your deployment zone. Lame but what ever.
VOD happens after the movement phase....so after your unit was already deployed within your deployment zone you then use the VOD and move it up. The new Deepstrike rule doesn't affect this.
VOD happens at the end of the movement phase, which is still the movement phase, not after. After the movement phase would be the psychic phase, you understand?
Requizen wrote: Hobby question: Anyone with a Tesseract Vault magnetized it? Right now I've just pushed the "arms" in to hold with pressure, but I think it's possible to get a magnet into the slots so you can pop them on and off with no problem. Anyone done this?
I've had it done for ease of transport. It's very possible.
One magnet goes on the end of the cable that anchors above the horizontal spars, and magnets on the chunky bit that goes below as well.
I will caution that it does make the model more "fragile", as it isn't glued down. It's a huge model anchored by long and relatively flexible weight bearing structures, so you'll find it wobbles a lot more.
On the bright side, if it falls, most of the pieces stay in place. I'll try to take a pic when I can.
"matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
Does the unit arrive during the first turn? Well, yes, it started the battle on the field during the first turn, all the units on the field during the first turn have "arrived" on this turn. I suppose that does mean that you can't use the veil to move something up during the first turn because the veil says
"When they do, the bearer, and up to one friendly <DYNASTY> INFANTRY unit within 3" of the bearer, are removed from the battlefield. Then, set up the bearer (and the second unit you chose, if any) anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models (the second unit must be set up wholly within 6" of the bearer)."
This is pretty much exactly called out by the rule. Your taking them from the battlefield and placing them whereever you want, but since they arrived this turn (turn 1) it can only be in your deployment zone. Lame but what ever.
VOD happens after the movement phase....so after your unit was already deployed within your deployment zone you then use the VOD and move it up. The new Deepstrike rule doesn't affect this.
VOD happens at the end of the movement phase, which is still the movement phase, not after. After the movement phase would be the psychic phase, you understand?
This is my last comment on this...deployment happens before movement.... thus deployment is already done, your unit was wholly within your zone, then movement occurs, then vod occurs....new deep strike rules don't affect this because your unit was deployed wholly within your zone, it wasn't held off the board and then brought in. It was on the board in your deployment zone....you understand?
Diesinthewarp wrote: As a Necron player and a GK player I know which one of my armies will get more game time.
Love the Anakyr and Szeras change.
Overall as well happy because I lost to Drukhari at the weekend. Turn one they dropped in from reserves as well as flew in from over 24in away pinning me in my deployment zone and doing the best impression of shooting metal fish in a barrel while collecting maelstrom points at will.
I have emailed GW regarding the deciever bomb. Though I have another question (might be a dumb question) are tomb sentinels, flayed ones affected like destroyers by the rule about not appearing from reserves turn 1? Not planning on running any just interested.
The FAQ doesn't affect deceiver bomb, look at the exception listed it says "this does not apply to units set up after the first battle round begins, but before first turn" this is exactly how deceiver works so it's is exempt.
If monolith and nightscyte grab unit from reserve you can't transport them outside yours deployment zone in 1 round. Also unit afected by deciver ability can't charge in 1 turn. So bomb was nerfed. Now you can only use them for take rapidfire range.
This is my last comment on this...deployment happens before movement.... thus deployment is already done, your unit was wholly within your zone, then movement occurs, then vod occurs....new deep strike rules don't affect this because your unit was deployed wholly within your zone, it wasn't held off the board and then brought in. It was on the board in your deployment zone....you understand?
To add to this, the intention of the rule from the FAQ, "The ability to arrive on the battlefield mid-game has always been powerful, enabling units that can do so to arrive where they will be most effective while granting them immunity from attacks until they are on the battlefield."
The key takeway for me is that our units don't have immunity from attacks since they are already on the field...
Good news everyone! With the FAQ changes the Night Scythe is even less appealing!
We can't use Emergency Invasion Beams if the Night Scythe is destroyed outside of our Deployment Zone during turn 1. Or can we? Does that mean our models just zip right back to our deployment zone magically because they *have* to be placed there?
Diesinthewarp wrote: As a Necron player and a GK player I know which one of my armies will get more game time.
Love the Anakyr and Szeras change.
Overall as well happy because I lost to Drukhari at the weekend. Turn one they dropped in from reserves as well as flew in from over 24in away pinning me in my deployment zone and doing the best impression of shooting metal fish in a barrel while collecting maelstrom points at will.
I have emailed GW regarding the deciever bomb. Though I have another question (might be a dumb question) are tomb sentinels, flayed ones affected like destroyers by the rule about not appearing from reserves turn 1? Not planning on running any just interested.
The FAQ doesn't affect deceiver bomb, look at the exception listed it says "this does not apply to units set up after the first battle round begins, but before first turn" this is exactly how deceiver works so it's is exempt.
If monolith and nightscyte grab unit from reserve you can't transport them outside yours deployment zone in 1 round. Also unit afected by deciver ability can't charge in 1 turn. So bomb was nerfed. Now you can only use them for take rapidfire range.
I never said some parts of it hadn't been nerfed ( You've never been able to charge if re-deployed by deceiver) I just thought he was questioning whether you could 're -deploy outside your deployment zone
Edit also last thing I'll say on this after skoffs pointed out we have YMDC for this, but the new DS limitations mean you must DS on 1at turn in your own table edge but there are some exceptions, now considering units arriving from monolith and NS must be within 3inchs of said units wouldn't that be considered and exception?
Eonfuzz wrote: Good news everyone! With the FAQ changes the Night Scythe is even less appealing!
We can't use Emergency Invasion Beams if the Night Scythe is destroyed outside of our Deployment Zone during turn 1. Or can we? Does that mean our models just zip right back to our deployment zone magically because they *have* to be placed there?
"Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). "
As long as you are not blowing your own NS during your turn, you are not affected by this.
Same for Deathmarks, out of turn deepstrikes are not affected by this rule.
Eonfuzz wrote: Good news everyone! With the FAQ changes the Night Scythe is even less appealing!
We can't use Emergency Invasion Beams if the Night Scythe is destroyed outside of our Deployment Zone during turn 1. Or can we? Does that mean our models just zip right back to our deployment zone magically because they *have* to be placed there?
"Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). "
As long as you are not blowing your own NS during your turn, you are not affected by this.
Same for Deathmarks, out of turn deepstrikes are not affected by this rule.
Cheeslord wrote: the enemy players first turn is still a players first turn though (it does not, if that quote is accurate, say the controlling players first turn...)
Mark.
Isn't it a fair interpretation that my first turn is over when my enemy's player turn starts?
Otherwise it should have read "the first turn" rather than "a player's first turn" if that wasn't the case?
well a fluffy opponent would let you use that stratagem, since its like an emergency-disembark and strictly limited in where to place the arriving models
Im pretty sure we can still use the VOD in Turn One, as the new Beta Rules explicitely targets "units arriving on the Battlefield" and not teleporting things around that are already on the Battlefield.
If this ruling stand, Necrons are one of the few Army who can still set up a pretty powerfull shooting Alpha Strike (D3 Units with Deciver+VOD).
Sadly, as other have stated, the Monolith is now really crap as you cant even use him for Turn 1 Drop+teleport.
380 Points is a joke for this unit.
stormcraft wrote: Im pretty sure we can still use the VOD in Turn One, as the new Beta Rules explicitely targets "units arriving on the Battlefield" and not teleporting things around that are already on the Battlefield.
If this ruling stand, Necrons are one of the few Army who can still set up a pretty powerfull shooting Alpha Strike (D3 Units with Deciver+VOD).
Sadly, as other have stated, the Monolith is now really crap as you cant even use him for Turn 1 Drop+teleport.
380 Points is a joke for this unit.
From the Rulebook Faq
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons? A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
That means you can't VoD outside your deployment zone turn 1.
Ah crap, well at least that keeps the VOD free to use later in the game as emergency get away.
Still, Deciver-porting a Tvault in the Middle of the Table is still possible and the new rules may reduce the usage of scouting units who can deny that.
stormcraft wrote: Im pretty sure we can still use the VOD in Turn One, as the new Beta Rules explicitely targets "units arriving on the Battlefield" and not teleporting things around that are already on the Battlefield.
If this ruling stand, Necrons are one of the few Army who can still set up a pretty powerfull shooting Alpha Strike (D3 Units with Deciver+VOD).
Sadly, as other have stated, the Monolith is now really crap as you cant even use him for Turn 1 Drop+teleport.
380 Points is a joke for this unit.
From the Rulebook Faq
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons? A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
That means you can't VoD outside your deployment zone turn 1.
To me, that is clearly related to moving and firing with heavy weapons, and does not address the new no-turn-1 deep strike, except by acceident.
stormcraft wrote: Sure, but the overall intent to treat "Teleporting" abilitys the same as "deepstriking" abilitys seems obvious.
But they wrote explicitly that it doesn't affect units already set up, as will be the case with any teleporters. They wouldn't put that in unless they had thought about it and intend it.
stormcraft wrote: Sure, but the overall intent to treat "Teleporting" abilitys the same as "deepstriking" abilitys seems obvious.
But they wrote explicitly that it doesn't affect units already set up, as will be the case with any teleporters. They wouldn't put that in unless they had thought about it and intend it.
No, they specifically excluded units set up before the first turn. Which is a significant difference.
Aren't we discussing VOD turn 1? And this surely involves units set up before the first turn? What's the significant difference in this?
Units are allowed to set up outside your deployment zone if they deploy before the first turn (Forward Operatives, Strike fro the Shadows)
Veil of Darkness is during the turn. The Beta rules say you can't arrive outside your deployment zone in turn 1. The Rulebook faq also says to treat units that teleport (Gate of Infinity, Teleport homer) as arriving as reinforcements.
Therefor using VoD during your first turn means you have to follow the beta rules and can't go outside your deployment zone.
The fact that they once deployment normally is irrelevant.
What the hell, guys.
I *just* said cut down on the YMDC debate,
Yet here we are.
This thread is for tactics discussion.
Granted, thanks to the FAQ coming along and making a bunch of things unclear we don't know 100% how certain things are played anymore, so until we have a clearer understanding (say, sorted out in a separate YMDC thread and cited here once a consensus is reached), let's just leave these uncertain rulings on the back burner of discussion.
In the meantime, if something from the FAQ significantly helps us AND is 100% unambiguous then have at it!
"matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
Does the unit arrive during the first turn? Well, yes, it started the battle on the field during the first turn, all the units on the field during the first turn have "arrived" on this turn. I suppose that does mean that you can't use the veil to move something up during the first turn because the veil says
"When they do, the bearer, and up to one friendly <DYNASTY> INFANTRY unit within 3" of the bearer, are removed from the battlefield. Then, set up the bearer (and the second unit you chose, if any) anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models (the second unit must be set up wholly within 6" of the bearer)."
This is pretty much exactly called out by the rule. Your taking them from the battlefield and placing them whereever you want, but since they arrived this turn (turn 1) it can only be in your deployment zone. Lame but what ever.
VOD happens after the movement phase....so after your unit was already deployed within your deployment zone you then use the VOD and move it up. The new Deepstrike rule doesn't affect this.
VOD happens at the end of the movement phase, which is still the movement phase, not after. After the movement phase would be the psychic phase, you understand?
This is my last comment on this...deployment happens before movement.... thus deployment is already done, your unit was wholly within your zone, then movement occurs, then vod occurs....new deep strike rules don't affect this because your unit was deployed wholly within your zone, it wasn't held off the board and then brought in. It was on the board in your deployment zone....you understand?
I'm not arguing about that. Just correcting you in that Veil absolutely happens during movement phase and I'm not sure how you would even think otherwise because it's basic reading.
No Deep Strike T1.
This is huge for us for two reasons.
Firstly our Alpha was not that stellar anyway, and things like Destroyers can DS in our deployment zone and still shoot in many scenarios - if required.
More importantly we had no method of DS protection vs shooting. We simply have no units that can deploy outside of our deployment zone other than via the Deceiver - and that doesn't work if our opponent locks up the midfield.
Extra CP's.
I think a net gain for us. Everyone gets the benefit but I feel that we have a wider, more diverse and more usable set of stratagems than most other armies.
Rule of 3.
Another gain for us. I haven't seen any Necron list that spams that much, but there were other armies that did; and some of those were problematic to us.
Soup.
Another net gain, although in reality it will not do what it is intended to do to any great extent. We can't soup and anything which may restrict other armies can only be good for us.
Anrakyr/Szeras.
Makes them more usable.
C'tan Powers within 1".
We always played it this way but nice to have clarificatio.
So all in all the FAQ's have improved our options and should make us a little more competitive.
All we need now are the Monolith sorting and our Tomb World deployment rules sorted and we are good to go!
torblind wrote: Aren't scouts still going to be able to do their thing?
They will, but they're tougher to fit in now (No more Celestine + 3 Scouts) and they'll be less important as most T1 strikes are hit hard. I know my Marines will still use Scouts fine at least.
If they want to do that, they will need to track down 15 metal Sisters models and upgrade the scouts to Dominions, who get the same scout move... only they can all be equiped with melta guns or storm bolters. Nastier, but slightly more expensive.
Biasn wrote:So does the methodical destruction strat function with the abyssal staffs mortal wounds?
It does now... I've been building my list around that. It's a nice little trick.
stormcraft wrote:Im pretty sure we can still use the VOD in Turn One, as the new Beta Rules explicitely targets "units arriving on the Battlefield" and not teleporting things around that are already on the Battlefield.
If this ruling stand, Necrons are one of the few Army who can still set up a pretty powerfull shooting Alpha Strike (D3 Units with Deciver+VOD).
Sadly, as other have stated, the Monolith is now really crap as you cant even use him for Turn 1 Drop+teleport.
380 Points is a joke for this unit.
Yeah, no VOD turn 1 and it also stops Ghostwalk Mantle...
I was reading my codex last night, and the Deceiver plus D3 units. You are certain to get at least 1, and you can be reasonably assured of moving the Deceiver and 2 units. There is no restriction that the units moved must be together. I don't have a Vault, but I do have a converted TC'tan that I'll be using with my Deceiver, and it will be harder to screen against the small footprints of these two models. I have a Nightbringer and I may see about converting up another T'Ctan if I feel that it this is a good strategy. I doubt that I'll need the second TC'tan though.
Those of you thinking about other shooting units, which ones have your attention? Warriors have too big of a footprint, though the shooting is top notch. Immortals seem the better option. Wraiths with their Particle Castors... prepping for a turn 2 charge?
Aren't we discussing VOD turn 1? And this surely involves units set up before the first turn? What's the significant difference in this?
Units are allowed to set up outside your deployment zone if they deploy before the first turn (Forward Operatives, Strike fro the Shadows)
Veil of Darkness is during the turn. The Beta rules say you can't arrive outside your deployment zone in turn 1. The Rulebook faq also says to treat units that teleport (Gate of Infinity, Teleport homer) as arriving as reinforcements.
Therefor using VoD during your first turn means you have to follow the beta rules and can't go outside your deployment zone.
The fact that they once deployment normally is irrelevant.
I don't think it's as clean cut as you're trying to make it be. The fact that they already arrived on the battlefield already is definitely relevant and the FAQ question was regarding a heavy weapon/movement question. Pointing out intention of the rule again, "The ability to arrive on the battlefield mid-game has always been powerful, enabling units that can do so to arrive where they will be most effective while granting them immunity from attacks until they are on the battlefield."
Again, we are already on the battlefield and do not have immunity. Veil wasn't something GW was targeting with this rule. Anyway, this is certainly a RAW vs. RAI argument
Its sad that we're going to need a FAQ for a FAQ to resolve this.
Tactical reaserve Beta rules, 2nd paragraph:
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO A GENESTEALER CULTS UNIT THAT IS BEING SET UP ACCORDING TO THE CULT AMBUSH ABILITY, OR TO UNITS THAT ARE SET UP AFTER THE FIRST BATTLE ROUND HAS BEGUN, BUT BEFORE THE FIRST TURN BEGINS.
This is plain language for Yeah the C'Tan deceiver thing still works.
Then Stratagem Dimensional corridor
USE THIS STRATAGEM AT THE START OF YOUR MOVEMENT PHASE. SELECT A DYNASTY INFANTRY UNIT FROM YOUR ARMY THAT IS MORE THAN 1'' AWAY FROM ENEMY MODELS AND REMOVE IT FROM THE BATTLEFIELD. THEN SET THE UNIT UP AGAIN SO THAT IT IS WHOLLY WITHIN 3'' OF A DYNASTY MONOLITH FROM YOUR ARMY AND MORE THAN 1'' AWAY FROM ENEMY MODELS. THAT UNIT COUNT AS HAVING DISEMBARKED FROM THE MONOLITHTHIS TURN AND CAN MOVE NORMALLY.
Plain language for treat the monolith as a transport. And the reinforcement rule doesn't prevent to unload transport outside your deployment zone on turn 1.
So you can C'Tan displace your Monolith 12'' from the enemy, Dimension corridor Flayed ones that where in your back field 3'' from the monolith/9'' from the enemy, move forward 5'' and charge 4''. No MWBD won't work though. But you can still have them as Novokh, stratagem them +1Str and if you could also bring one or 2 HQ, have Anakyr give them +1A and another HQ with a nighmare shroud and the Novokh warlord trait. That makes 20 flayed ones with 4 attacks, reroll to hit reroll to wound, add an extra attack on hit rolls of 6s, +1Str and cumulative -3 to enemy moral. (1500 pts though). Just don't target armor 2+.
Edit: Forgot to add use Blood rites stratagem to have them pile in and fight twice. Think you can even wipe out 60 pink horrors that way.
Happy now?
And units already on the battlefield are considered being arrived BEFORE the first turn, as the first turn begins AFTER deployment.
So you can C'Tan displace your Monolith 12'' from the enemy, Dimension corridor Flayed ones that where in your back field 3'' from the monolith/9'' from the enemy, move forward 5'' and charge 4''. No MWBD won't work though. But you can still have them as Novokh, stratagem them +1Str and if you could also bring one or 2 HQ, have Anakyr give them +1A and another HQ with a nighmare shroud and the Novokh warlord trait. That makes 20 flayed ones with 4 attacks, reroll to hit reroll to wound, add an extra attack on hit rolls of 6s, +1Str and cumulative -3 to enemy moral. (1500 pts though). Just don't target armor 2+.
That's a pretty solid Alpha Strike, and 100% agree works with the current wording. Would be forced to bring a Monolith, though, which is.... not the best still but hey it's something.
So you can C'Tan displace your Monolith 12'' from the enemy, Dimension corridor Flayed ones that where in your back field 3'' from the monolith/9'' from the enemy, move forward 5'' and charge 4''. No MWBD won't work though. But you can still have them as Novokh, stratagem them +1Str and if you could also bring one or 2 HQ, have Anakyr give them +1A and another HQ with a nighmare shroud and the Novokh warlord trait. That makes 20 flayed ones with 4 attacks, reroll to hit reroll to wound, add an extra attack on hit rolls of 6s, +1Str and cumulative -3 to enemy moral. (1500 pts though). Just don't target armor 2+.
That's a pretty solid Alpha Strike, and 100% agree works with the current wording. Would be forced to bring a Monolith, though, which is.... not the best still but hey it's something.
Wellits priced for exactly this ability one might argue
These issues that crop up.....along with how our reanimation can be bypassed is exactly why I don't believe they playtested necrons......I don't care what those d-bags at frontline gaming say
punisher357 wrote: These issues that crop up.....along with how our reanimation can be bypassed is exactly why I don't believe they playtested necrons......I don't care what those d-bags at frontline gaming say
To be fair, our entire army revolves around a number of punish tactics. Put your guys in a favorable scenario, force the opponent to either respond with disproportionate force, or fail in their attempt, and then recoup the losses if they did. That's how the army works now. Death Guard's whole shtick of "We die really slowly" is theirs alone, or otherwise the armies don't have a niche. We made due with this version of RP in 5th and 6th ed, and we can continue to do so, but it makes us have to play smarter. I don't mind the challenge, as I was at my best in 6th.
Frontline Gaming is many things, but they've done a great job helping to bring more players into the fold and making everything more accessible to newer players. Their word isn't law, but I tend to trust them on these things.
By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection". That's part of the core mechanic of RP, is that often if forces an opponent to commit much more firepower to a squad than it normally would need to in order to reduce its effectiveness. This also has the secondary effect of them not being able to effectively target multiple units since they are committing so much of their firepower to a single unit.
punisher357 wrote: These issues that crop up.....along with how our reanimation can be bypassed is exactly why I don't believe they playtested necrons......I don't care what those d-bags at frontline gaming say
To be fair, our entire army revolves around a number of punish tactics. Put your guys in a favorable scenario, force the opponent to either respond with disproportionate force, or fail in their attempt, and then recoup the losses if they did. That's how the army works now. Death Guard's whole shtick of "We die really slowly" is theirs alone, or otherwise the armies don't have a niche. We made due with this version of RP in 5th and 6th ed, and we can continue to do so, but it makes us have to play smarter. I don't mind the challenge, as I was at my best in 6th.
Frontline Gaming is many things, but they've done a great job helping to bring more players into the fold and making everything more accessible to newer players. Their word isn't law, but I tend to trust them on these things.
I don't agree with RP being bypassable. I think it doesn't make sense fluff-wise. But it doesn't mean they didn't play test them. In 7th, RP was really, really strong. In this edition, it is really, really strong. However! In a different way. You throw 3 units at your opponent's face real quick while the rest of your army moves up slowly, and they won't be able to deal with all of it reliably. They have to focus things down, or we recover. So they're boned either way. We just have to accept (not always peacefully, in my case) that warrior blobs and near-immortal Lychstars aren't a thing anymore.
I frequently have opponents go 'what the hell' and throw all remaining shots at a withered down unit just to be sure. Overkill that spares the rest of my army.
While I on the other hand could split 10 immortals firing half on two full IG squads, withering both down to little combat value, even letting moral take it's tole. And then moving on, not worrying about a few measly lasgun shots, and the opponent not wasting orders on a reduced unit.
torblind wrote: I frequently have opponents go 'what the hell' and throw all remaining shots at a withered down unit just to be sure. Overkill that spares the rest of my army.
While I on the other hand could split 10 immortals firing half on two full IG squads, withering both down to little combat value, even letting moral take it's tole. And then moving on, not worrying about a few measly lasgun shots, and the opponent not wasting orders on a reduced unit.
My last game, first with the new codex, my opponents fired most of their stuff at a Warrior blob, killing most in one turn and deciding to spread their firepower to other things. They figured morale would take effect. I then popped 2 CPs, got one back with Imotekh, and used a Rez Orb and the Cryptek nearby to get about 10 dudes back. They still didn't get around to fully killing that unit that game. My buddy HATES it.
I had a game this past weekend where my Destroyer unit got down to 1 model remaining three turns in a row, followed by Cryptek-empowered Reanimate after. So... it's fairly good.
Actually vehicules are way strongers than RP infantry now.
Here's my rating of ''How many BS3+ S5 ap-2 1dmg attacks 300pts worth of unit can sustain?''
Scarab: 156
Ghost Ark: 141
Wraith: 139
Tomb blades: 119
Stalker: 118
DDA: 117
Monolith: 106
...
closest infantry: Lychguard 90
Warriors: 67
Destroyers: 60
Immortals: 59
Flayed ones: 47
Cut them in half for multi-wound dealing weapons, except for warriors who now get in the 6th best spot. Immo/FO get better too, still lower than arks, scarabs, stalker, wraith though.
Getting peak RP is expensive. Cryptek everywhere, res orb or ghost ark, stratagem... You can heal as much wound to a vehicule than you can RP infantry if you build your army around it.
By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection". That's part of the core mechanic of RP, is that often if forces an opponent to commit much more firepower to a squad than it normally would need to in order to reduce its effectiveness. This also has the secondary effect of them not being able to effectively target multiple units since they are committing so much of their firepower to a single unit.
Death Guard FNP isn't bypassed as every wound from the opponent has to chew through that extra save. RP can be bypassed because we would never get to roll for our RP if the unit is wiped.
I agree with what you're saying, but it's not entirely the same in these examples.
It's hard to see the value of forcing an opponent to shoot some extra shots into a unit to wipe them entirely (voiding our RP cost) or perhaps they have perfect counter units where that is the ideal target to attack, wiping them anyway.
I enjoy the mechanic, but it's something that is mostly controlled by your opponent, with the exception of you putting a few models out of LOS and hoping the unit firing doesn't have enough to finish the job. That said, to get the most out of it, try and have some models out of LOS!
I'm really surprised that we didn't get a strategem that allows you to make reanimation protocol rolls for a unit that was destroyed during the last battle round. Maybe limited to Warriors and Immortals, and maybe only in your deployment zone... but still.
Hey guys, in sight of the new FAQ I'm leaning towards dropping my initial plan that relied a lot on the joined strike of Destroyers and Immortals T1.
My original list is as follows.
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion Lord (Warscythe) Cryptek (VoD, Immortal Pride) 10x Gauss Immortals 5x Tesla Immortals 19 Warriors 3x Scarabs 6x Destoyers
The plan was to deploy just the scarabs, cryptek, warriors and Tesla Immortals T1 in a way the opponent couldn't wipe them out. My first opportunity I'd veil the warriors and the Tek, drop the Lord, Gauss Immortals and Destroyers for the alpha strike. This strategy still works, but I am forced to wait until T2 now.
I'm considering switching to the following list.
Spoiler:
Novokh Outrider Destoyer Lord (Blood Scythe, Crimson Haze) C'tan shard of the Nightbringer Transcedant C'tan Transcedant C'tan 6x Scarabs 6x Scarabs 1x Destroyer
The idea is to start it up with mortal wounds and follow up on CC, offering nothing but my scarabs (and lone destroyer) as targets.
I know my main opponent will be runninf Pask + Tank commander + 3 russes + 30 guardsmen.
Any advice, tips and critics are welcome. I only have this week before my tournament!
By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection". That's part of the core mechanic of RP, is that often if forces an opponent to commit much more firepower to a squad than it normally would need to in order to reduce its effectiveness. This also has the secondary effect of them not being able to effectively target multiple units since they are committing so much of their firepower to a single unit.
Death Guard FNP isn't bypassed as every wound from the opponent has to chew through that extra save. RP can be bypassed because we would never get to roll for our RP if the unit is wiped.
I agree with what you're saying, but it's not entirely the same in these examples.
It's hard to see the value of forcing an opponent to shoot some extra shots into a unit to wipe them entirely (voiding our RP cost) or perhaps they have perfect counter units where that is the ideal target to attack, wiping them anyway.
I enjoy the mechanic, but it's something that is mostly controlled by your opponent, with the exception of you putting a few models out of LOS and hoping the unit firing doesn't have enough to finish the job. That said, to get the most out of it, try and have some models out of LOS!
I definitely see your point on FNP with Death Guard, but they seriously pay for that ability, while we basically get RP for free when you compare basic troop costs (Tac Marine, Plague Marine, Necron Warrior) and Boltgun/Gauss.
The biggest differences are:
PM have +1 T compared to TM/NW
PM/TM have +1 SV compared to NW
PM/TM have access to a wider range of weaponry than NW do
PM/TM have access to Sgts/Champs
NW have -1 AP compared to PM/TM NW have +3 LD compared to PM/TM
NW are the cheapest of the three, even with RP NW 12ppm
TM 13ppm
PM 19ppm
Though now this little thought experiment is making me want to do a points analysis on other Necron squads with RP to see just how much it factors into their ppm
I haven't played my Necrons since 3rd (boy do I miss Spider's letting me roll WBB after a squad was wiped so long as there was another of the same type still on the board ), but I think this version of RP is miles and away better (and fluffier) than WBB was.
arhurt wrote: Hey guys, in sight of the new FAQ I'm leaning towards dropping my initial plan that relied a lot on the joined strike of Destroyers and Immortals T1.
My original list is as follows.
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion
Lord (Warscythe)
Cryptek (VoD, Immortal Pride)
10x Gauss Immortals
5x Tesla Immortals
19 Warriors
3x Scarabs
6x Destoyers
The plan was to deploy just the scarabs, cryptek, warriors and Tesla Immortals T1 in a way the opponent couldn't wipe them out. My first opportunity I'd veil the warriors and the Tek, drop the Lord, Gauss Immortals and Destroyers for the alpha strike. This strategy still works, but I am forced to wait until T2 now.
I'm considering switching to the following list.
Spoiler:
Novokh Outrider
Destoyer Lord (Blood Scythe, Crimson Haze)
C'tan shard of the Nightbringer
Transcedant C'tan
Transcedant C'tan
6x Scarabs
6x Scarabs
The idea is to start it up with mortal wounds and follow up on CC, offering nothing but my scarabs (and lone destroyer) as targets.
I know my main opponent will be runninf Pask + Tank commander + 3 russes + 30 guardsmen.
Any advice, tips and critics are welcome. I only have this week before my tournament!
Might be too slow to deal with his gunline perhaps, change one with the deceiver?
By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection".
You're oversimplifying the issue to try and make your opinion seem logical. Your opponent doesn't pay a premium for "unit selection".
The entire issue with reanimation protocols is that your opponent can effectively determine whether you get to roll for them or not. I'm perfectly aware that this could potentially cause them to Overkill and not have Firepower directed at other parts of the army. However, in theory, you're paying more points for a unit that is survivable... The problem is the survivability that you pay for can be completely negated. I think there are better or mechanical options for reanimation protocols. Some of the suggestions made in this thread we're actually really good.
I'm aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the army, I'm aware of how this all works... However, by statements made by so-called play testers of the necron army I personally don't believe they playtested the Army very much. Until the most recent faq we were at a severe disadvantage. That's just my opinion whether you agree or not
arhurt wrote: Hey guys, in sight of the new FAQ I'm leaning towards dropping my initial plan that relied a lot on the joined strike of Destroyers and Immortals T1.
My original list is as follows.
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion
Lord (Warscythe)
Cryptek (VoD, Immortal Pride)
10x Gauss Immortals
5x Tesla Immortals
19 Warriors
3x Scarabs
6x Destoyers
The plan was to deploy just the scarabs, cryptek, warriors and Tesla Immortals T1 in a way the opponent couldn't wipe them out. My first opportunity I'd veil the warriors and the Tek, drop the Lord, Gauss Immortals and Destroyers for the alpha strike. This strategy still works, but I am forced to wait until T2 now.
I'm considering switching to the following list.
Spoiler:
Novokh Outrider
Destoyer Lord (Blood Scythe, Crimson Haze)
C'tan shard of the Nightbringer
Transcedant C'tan
Transcedant C'tan
6x Scarabs
6x Scarabs
The idea is to start it up with mortal wounds and follow up on CC, offering nothing but my scarabs (and lone destroyer) as targets.
I know my main opponent will be runninf Pask + Tank commander + 3 russes + 30 guardsmen.
Any advice, tips and critics are welcome. I only have this week before my tournament!
Fyi that second list is not a legal outrider. Its only got two fast attacks. I would definetly condider making one of the T'ctan into the deciever. The quicker you get those t'ctan and night bringer into combat the better.
Anpu-adom wrote: I'm really surprised that we didn't get a strategem that allows you to make reanimation protocol rolls for a unit that was destroyed during the last battle round. Maybe limited to Warriors and Immortals, and maybe only in your deployment zone... but still.
I would have just liked to see a negative modifier for a unit that been wiped out, I.E. they make their RP at -1, so a 6+ normally or 5+ if near a cryptek. Any models that don't make their RP this way are permanently destroyed. Makes sense to me at least.
So i finally got my hands on a third tesseract vault. On sale no less. Im wondering which dynasty to make my super heavy detatchment. Im aware i get nothing from codes but i still get the strats. Im thinking either nihilakh or sautekh. Nihilakh lets me bump it up to a 3++ for a turn and sautekh gets me the +1 to hit strat so the vaults tesla can pop on 5s.Thoughts?
Anpu-adom wrote: I'm really surprised that we didn't get a strategem that allows you to make reanimation protocol rolls for a unit that was destroyed during the last battle round. Maybe limited to Warriors and Immortals, and maybe only in your deployment zone... but still.
I would have just liked to see a negative modifier for a unit that been wiped out, I.E. they make their RP at -1, so a 6+ normally or 5+ if near a cryptek. Any models that don't make their RP this way are permanently destroyed. Makes sense to me at least.
I think you’re the only one, then...because what you’re effectively asking for are immortal units. That sort of rule would be horrifically overpowered, not to mention cause all sorts of havoc with melee, obsec, and player fun. Hell, imagine trying to balance *that* mess.
Inevitableq wrote: So i finally got my hands on a third tesseract vault. On sale no less. Im wondering which dynasty to make my super heavy detatchment. Im aware i get nothing from codes but i still get the strats. Im thinking either nihilakh or sautekh. Nihilakh lets me bump it up to a 3++ for a turn and sautekh gets me the +1 to hit strat so the vaults tesla can pop on 5s.Thoughts?
Untrue, the Superheavy Detachment (SHD, 3-5 Lords of War) is different from a Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment (SHAD, 1 Lord of War). Only the latter is excluded from Codes, a SHD gets Codes normally.
With that in mind, a SHD with 3 Vaults should likely take Mephrit since you'll be relying on your Spheres for damage and will be close enough for the AP-1 to be consistent.
Anpu-adom wrote: I'm really surprised that we didn't get a strategem that allows you to make reanimation protocol rolls for a unit that was destroyed during the last battle round. Maybe limited to Warriors and Immortals, and maybe only in your deployment zone... but still.
I would have just liked to see a negative modifier for a unit that been wiped out, I.E. they make their RP at -1, so a 6+ normally or 5+ if near a cryptek. Any models that don't make their RP this way are permanently destroyed. Makes sense to me at least.
I think that would be a great game mechanic! The models that fail and are permanently destroyed would balance it so that the units aren't "immortal".
Inevitableq wrote: So i finally got my hands on a third tesseract vault. On sale no less. Im wondering which dynasty to make my super heavy detatchment. Im aware i get nothing from codes but i still get the strats. Im thinking either nihilakh or sautekh. Nihilakh lets me bump it up to a 3++ for a turn and sautekh gets me the +1 to hit strat so the vaults tesla can pop on 5s.Thoughts?
Untrue, the Superheavy Detachment (SHD, 3-5 Lords of War) is different from a Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment (SHAD, 1 Lord of War). Only the latter is excluded from Codes, a SHD gets Codes normally.
With that in mind, a SHD with 3 Vaults should likely take Mephrit since you'll be relying on your Spheres for damage and will be close enough for the AP-1 to be consistent.
You arent wrong about the SHD not excluding codes. The part you are missing is that the tesseract vault has the C'tan shard keyword. Which makes it not benefit from codes.
Novokh Outrider Destoyer Lord (Blood Scythe, Crimson Haze) C'tan shard of the Nightbringer Transcedant C'tan Transcedant C'tan 6x Scarabs 6x Scarabs
Fyi that second list is not a legal outrider. Its only got two fast attacks. I would definetly condider making one of the T'ctan into the deciever. The quicker you get those t'ctan and night bringer into combat the better.
Oh sorry it was missing a single Destroyer and, yeah, I think I'll add the deceiver for that. Might change the Warlord trait to re-roll charges so he can help then.
Every ability needs to have a counter. that's what tactics are for. And if he needs to fire almost his entire army to whipe a unit, then a) your other units can punish him for it and kill his important bits and b) if he has to fire this entire army to deal with 1 unit that unit must be very bady positioned to be in range and sight of everyone.
You can always use the tactic of hiding 1 or 2 models where none can see them, so if one enemy unit kills all but 1 or 2. the rest of his army can't see the other models and leave you to res in peace. It's really not that hard.
Any ability which has no counterplay is just OP and no fun to play against/to easy to play with. where's the challange?
Inevitableq wrote: So i finally got my hands on a third tesseract vault. On sale no less. Im wondering which dynasty to make my super heavy detatchment. Im aware i get nothing from codes but i still get the strats. Im thinking either nihilakh or sautekh. Nihilakh lets me bump it up to a 3++ for a turn and sautekh gets me the +1 to hit strat so the vaults tesla can pop on 5s.Thoughts?
Untrue, the Superheavy Detachment (SHD, 3-5 Lords of War) is different from a Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment (SHAD, 1 Lord of War). Only the latter is excluded from Codes, a SHD gets Codes normally.
With that in mind, a SHD with 3 Vaults should likely take Mephrit since you'll be relying on your Spheres for damage and will be close enough for the AP-1 to be consistent.
You arent wrong about the SHD not excluding codes. The part you are missing is that the tesseract vault has the C'tan shard keyword. Which makes it not benefit from codes.
Ah, interesting edge case. Sautekh is likely the best then.
Ah, interesting edge case. Sautekh is likely the best then.
Why Sautekh? Sure you can get +1 for tesla, but in a 3 vault list then you will already have shot with a vault to get the bonus, and you can't fit imotekh in the list to make this easier. The best to me would seem to be nihalkh, popping the 3++ strat just seems too god for preventing your opponent from shooting one that is right in their face turn 1. I run a sautekh detachment with hyperlogical strategist with my super heavy detachment. If you run a cryptek warlord to heal them, then you are just healing wounds that will result in barely any difference in result, and placing your warlord up the front will just result in it being charged or shot by close by enemies
Giving +1 to hit does not affect the abyssal staff in any way, it automatically hits, the roll you make for the leadership and mortal wounds are both generic rolls, not hit rolls, not to mention that the weapon already has an actual to hit roll, it just passes automatically
The intent is to use the Abyssal Staff as a trigger for methodical destruction, as it's a fairly reliable wound generator that isn't a unit you'd want to benefit from the buff itself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skullhammer wrote: I keep seeing deepstriking destroyers but cant find an ability in thd dex to allow this, how are people doing this?
Anpu-adom wrote: I'm really surprised that we didn't get a strategem that allows you to make reanimation protocol rolls for a unit that was destroyed during the last battle round. Maybe limited to Warriors and Immortals, and maybe only in your deployment zone... but still.
I would have just liked to see a negative modifier for a unit that been wiped out, I.E. they make their RP at -1, so a 6+ normally or 5+ if near a cryptek. Any models that don't make their RP this way are permanently destroyed. Makes sense to me at least.
I think you’re the only one, then...because what you’re effectively asking for are immortal units. That sort of rule would be horrifically overpowered, not to mention cause all sorts of havoc with melee, obsec, and player fun. Hell, imagine trying to balance *that* mess.
Right, it's much more fun to have a special rule that defines the army being completely negated by the other player while having the points costs baked in, is just loads of fun. Our characters don't even get to benefit from it anymore. We should also reintroduce phase-out while we are at it. My suggestion is not perfect I'll admit, but RP as it is right now sucks. I'd rather have the FNP version of 5th and 6th edition over what we have now any day of the week. Something needed to be done, maybe a -2 modifier to my idea, this would easily prevent the immortal units, while still allowing units a chance to get back up if near a cryptek, as well as leaving room for new stratagems to work around it. Just about anything is better than the current solution, as you can never rely on our army defining special rule.
So,
With the increase in available CP, what are people's thoughts on Nephrekh reserving half of its forces to come onto the table turn 2?
Pros: keep your guys safe from long range fire.
Cons: if they DO manage to kill the stuff you have on the table turn one, that's a quick game over.
The other question would be, what starts on the table and what comes in later?
I'm almost tempted to see if I can fit a Deceiver Super-Heavy Bomb™ in with a minimum Nephrekh Battalion, dropping the three troop units on to objectives instead of having them march there.
Regarding our rp I think the best solution would be a startagem to roll rp for a wiped out unit (placing as close as possible to last location) Either as a normal roll or at a penalty at the start of your movement phase. Gets round the current problem of denying us our rp at all without immortal units (due to extra cp cost). This is something i expected to be in the codex and i'm surprised such a simple solution wasn't.
skoffs wrote:So,
With the increase in available CP, what are people's thoughts on Nephrekh reserving half of its forces to come onto the table turn 2?
Pros: keep your guys safe from long range fire.
Cons: if they DO manage to kill the stuff you have on the table turn one, that's a quick game over.
The other question would be, what starts on the table and what comes in later?
I'm almost tempted to see if I can fit a Deceiver Super-Heavy Bomb™ in with a minimum Nephrekh Battalion, dropping the three troop units on to objectives instead of having them march there.
I don't know if Nephrekh is really worth the battalion. How many of our units really benefit from it? I am just not sold on them as anything more than a destroyer auxillary detachment.
zacharia wrote:Regarding our rp I think the best solution would be a startagem to roll rp for a wiped out unit (placing as close as possible to last location) Either as a normal roll or at a penalty at the start of your movement phase. Gets round the current problem of denying us our rp at all without immortal units (due to extra cp cost). This is something i expected to be in the codex and i'm surprised such a simple solution wasn't.
Guys,
What is the point of talking about "it should be like this"-isms now?
The codex is out. The FAQ is out. There's nothing we can do about it. Going on comment after comment about how you feel they should done things is pointless, and more importantly, completely irrelevant to the tactics thread.
Now, if you want to discuss things they could do to make future updates better, there is a place for that on Dakka-
skoffs wrote:So,
With the increase in available CP, what are people's thoughts on Nephrekh reserving half of its forces to come onto the table turn 2?
Pros: keep your guys safe from long range fire.
Cons: if they DO manage to kill the stuff you have on the table turn one, that's a quick game over.
The other question would be, what starts on the table and what comes in later?
I'm almost tempted to see if I can fit a Deceiver Super-Heavy Bomb™ in with a minimum Nephrekh Battalion, dropping the three troop units on to objectives instead of having them march there.
I don't know if Nephrekh is really worth the battalion. How many of our units really benefit from it? I am just not sold on them as anything more than a destroyer auxillary detachment.
zacharia wrote:Regarding our rp I think the best solution would be a startagem to roll rp for a wiped out unit (placing as close as possible to last location) Either as a normal roll or at a penalty at the start of your movement phase. Gets round the current problem of denying us our rp at all without immortal units (due to extra cp cost). This is something i expected to be in the codex and i'm surprised such a simple solution wasn't.
This would seem like a fair compromise.
Wraiths could advance 18", not bad, and still charge for an extra CP. Scarabs would also like the extra 6". Most C'Tans too, since they can still fire their powers at end of move phase.
Immortals could move 11" and still shoot twice, albeit with -1 to hit.
Same with tesla tomb blades. Characters could get places to provide buffs.
You get the solar staff, which is not too shabby.
The vault could get in position for his CTan powers and still shoot decently.
With the FaQ finally out and the changes it has brought I had to change my tournament list a good bit to adjust with everything that has changed e.g. 1st turn alpha strike nearly extinct, gun-line going to be more popular, board control before T2 etc.
I think a Nephrekh Outrider Detachment should be in everyones lists.
My build consists of;
HQ - Szeras
Fast - 9x Scarabs
9x Scarabs
6x Destroyers
Scarabs for board control on T1 to make opponents Dsing on t2 less viable and to make sure I have room to Ds my Destroyers where they need to be. You can also swap out Szeras for a Cloaktek if your not running a Battalion from a different Dynasty.
To make sure you get board control you could bring the Deceiver to GI the Scarabs before they get to move+advance 16" up to your opponents deployment zone so that they can only DS in their deployment zone in their T2 (people gonna hate us).
The FaQ has defiantly made the Deceiver a way more important model now.
Anpu-adom wrote: I'm really surprised that we didn't get a strategem that allows you to make reanimation protocol rolls for a unit that was destroyed during the last battle round. Maybe limited to Warriors and Immortals, and maybe only in your deployment zone... but still.
I would have just liked to see a negative modifier for a unit that been wiped out, I.E. they make their RP at -1, so a 6+ normally or 5+ if near a cryptek. Any models that don't make their RP this way are permanently destroyed. Makes sense to me at least.
I think you’re the only one, then...because what you’re effectively asking for are immortal units. That sort of rule would be horrifically overpowered, not to mention cause all sorts of havoc with melee, obsec, and player fun. Hell, imagine trying to balance *that* mess.
Not the only one. Could have been a 2-3CP stratagem. Heck they've given one such a thing to canoptek (yeah RP to 3++ wraith).
Wraiths could advance 18", not bad, and still charge for an extra CP. Scarabs would also like the extra 6". Most C'Tans too, since they can still fire their powers at end of move phase.
Immortals could move 11" and still shoot twice, albeit with -1 to hit.
Same with tesla tomb blades. Characters could get places to provide buffs.
You get the solar staff, which is not too shabby.
The vault could get in position for his CTan powers and still shoot decently.
Its not extra 6". Dont think about this bonus that way. With normal advance you get medium 3,5". So you get extra 2,5" and fly.
Most units prefere sautekh dynasty with better shoot after 3,5" advance.
skoffs wrote: So,
With the increase in available CP, what are people's thoughts on Nephrekh reserving half of its forces to come onto the table turn 2?
Pros: keep your guys safe from long range fire.
Cons: if they DO manage to kill the stuff you have on the table turn one, that's a quick game over.
The other question would be, what starts on the table and what comes in later?
I'm almost tempted to see if I can fit a Deceiver Super-Heavy Bomb™ in with a minimum Nephrekh Battalion, dropping the three troop units on to objectives instead of having them march there.
I almost see no point of taking a 1CP force when you can just add 3X5 immortals and a cryptek for 5CP. That's +340pts for +4CP and its not like those points will do nothing on the table! You at least need a bataillon, i think you waste enormous potential if you do not. I played with 15CP yesterday and spent them all by turn 3!!! All our stratagems are good.
If anything the DDA 72'' range has just got better since you can't deepstrike on turn 1. I rate it now in the best pieces of our army and its hard to build a list without one or 2.
Replaced a DDA for a stalker. Its official, stalker sucks.
Monolith deserves a 2nd look with close combat elites, dimensional corridor and Novokh.
How can you NOT use a deceiver now?
People talk gunlines are good now since you won't see T1 deepstrike, but so is SPEED. How about armies that can charge you on T1 (nids)? I think a few scarab screens are mandatory. Also warrior + Anarkzyr and+1Str stratagem can help you out survive a charge. Or even Novokh. I wouldn't bring a Novokh army to a tournament, but against some specific opponents, i'm thinking about it.
Wraiths could advance 18", not bad, and still charge for an extra CP. Scarabs would also like the extra 6". Most C'Tans too, since they can still fire their powers at end of move phase.
Immortals could move 11" and still shoot twice, albeit with -1 to hit.
Same with tesla tomb blades. Characters could get places to provide buffs.
You get the solar staff, which is not too shabby.
The vault could get in position for his CTan powers and still shoot decently.
Its not extra 6". Dont think about this bonus that way. With normal advance you get medium 3,5". So you get extra 2,5" and fly.
Most units prefere sautekh dynasty with better shoot after 3,5" advance.
Feel this dynasty should only be for scarabs, wraiths, destroyers (for deep strike)
I know its not an extra 6" advance, but the fact its a garanteed 6" makes a huge difference for moving wraiths up (anyone rolling 1's will know that feeling)
(ctan dont benefit from the 6" advance)
anything else outside of them 3 units, go into sautekh, for the cp bonus mainly, but also allowing everything to advance and still shoot is huge.
Da W wrote: I almost see no point of taking a 1CP force when you can just add 3X5 immortals and a cryptek for 5CP. That's +340pts for +4CP and its not like those points will do nothing on the table! You at least need a bataillon, i think you waste enormous potential if you do not.
Uh, yeah, that's why I said,
skoffs wrote: see if I can fit a Deceiver Super-Heavy Bomb™ in with a minimum Nephrekh Battalion, dropping the three troop units on to objectives instead of having them march there.
However, after doing the math, it looks like the cheapest Battalion load out (2x Sword Lords, 3x 5 Immortals) that includes the Deceiver + Vaults is 2120 points, so the Super-Heavy Bomb build isn't going to work (you could technically still fit a Super-Heavy Detachment and a bare minimum requirements Battalion together in one 2000 point list... but to do so you would need to take 2 Obelisks with the Vault, so that's definitely not worth it.)
If you're going for a Battalion to try for maximum CP, looks like you're restricted to taking the Vault as an Auxiliary only. (which is fine).
If you want 3x Vaults + The Deceiver you're going to have to opt for an Outrider.
skoffs wrote: So,
With the increase in available CP, what are people's thoughts on Nephrekh reserving half of its forces to come onto the table turn 2?
Pros: keep your guys safe from long range fire.
Cons: if they DO manage to kill the stuff you have on the table turn one, that's a quick game over.
The other question would be, what starts on the table and what comes in later?
I'm almost tempted to see if I can fit a Deceiver Super-Heavy Bomb™ in with a minimum Nephrekh Battalion, dropping the three troop units on to objectives instead of having them march there.
With how quickly things die in 8th I wouldn't risk having only half of my units on the board against a powerful shooting army unless there were ample cover and LOS blocking terrain pieces. Another con to consider, which could also be a pro depending on how you look at it, would be that your opponent won't have much difficulty with target priority, the most valuable units on the table will be what are targeted/eliminated. The pro side is you can effectively choose what they are going to target and shoot at assuming they get first turn or that you don't deepstrike units in your own deployment zone if you end up going first.
Sounds like it might be fun for a casual game.....I'm not sure how it would work competitively. I think what might end up happening is a battle of deployment.......the person who deepstrikes first (after the first turn) is potentially at a disadvantage against a counter deepstrike. It definitely adds another strategic consideration to the game. Do you strike first and hope to inflict heavy casualties and possibly suffer significant casualties from the counter deepstrike or do you hold out and try to counter their deepstrike with one of your own? I think a big determining factor will be what units you leave on the board.
Skullhammer wrote: I keep seeing deepstriking destroyers but cant find an ability in thd dex to allow this, how are people doing this?
Nephrek Destroyers can be placed in deep strike using a 1 point stratagem prior to the first battle round.
I think its called translocation crypt.
For now, it seems to be 100% the best way to use destroyers. Drop them in, pop eradication protocols, and delete something off the board. Their 24 inch range means they should not be able to be auspex scanned or the like, so double win there.
As an experiment I thought I'd try to see what our absolute maximum CP amount would be in a 2000 point list using the new list building restrictions in the FAQ:
• maximum 3 detachments
• only 1 of any detachment type
• maximum 3 of any particular unit (excluding Troops).
Spoiler:
++ Brigade Detachment +12CP [66 PL, 1281pts] ++
+ HQ +
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Looks like the maximum CP we can get is 21 (including 3 for battleforged).
(and no, there was no way to fit Imotekh in for an extra 1 CP this time with these restrictions)
Note: this is not meant to be a "good list".
I was just trying to see what our absolute limits were.
skoffs wrote: As an experiment I thought I'd try to see what our absolute maximum CP amount would be in a 2000 point list using the new list building restrictions in the FAQ:
• maximum 3 detachments
• only 1 of any detachment type
• maximum 3 of any particular unit (excluding Troops).
Spoiler:
++ Brigade Detachment +12CP [66 PL, 1281pts] ++
+ HQ +
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
punisher357 wrote: Do you happen to know the command point difference if we elected to use Imotek?
If we're going for maximum CP there's no way to fit him in this scenario using 2000 points (I tried using a Supreme Command Detachment and juggling the HQs around, but because everything was already the cheapest it could get there just weren't enough points left over).
I guess you could instead remove the Outrider detachment completely and substitute Imotekh as one of the Battalion's HQ, but you would still end up with the same amount of points (though I guess you'd probably have more points left to buff things with... you know, if this was a real list someone intended to play with... which they shouldn't because it's bad).
out, add immotek for the 1cp, and acctually have some points to play around with (though not many)
Yes, as I told punisher357 it'd be the same amount of CP, just a bit more points to pad things out.
But again, this is not a real attempt at a list, just an exercise to see how many CP our absolute maximum was.
Ideally we can probably expect between 9 (battalion + 1 CP minor Detachment) and 16 (Brigade + 1 CP minor Detachment). It might be possible to do a Brigade + Battalion for 20, but it probably wouldn't be as optimized a list as the lesser alternatives.
Either way, I think it may be safe to say we probably won't be playing any more lists consisting of only minor Detachments (ie. no Batt or Brig). The sacrifice in CP is just not worth it.
skoffs wrote: So,
With the increase in available CP, what are people's thoughts on Nephrekh reserving half of its forces to come onto the table turn 2?
Pros: keep your guys safe from long range fire.
Cons: if they DO manage to kill the stuff you have on the table turn one, that's a quick game over.
Just to point out that Sudden Death (pg. 215 of the main rulebook) is only checked for at the end of any turn after the first battle round. If you go first and get wiped out in the first battle round, you still have your turn in the second battle round to bring more units on to the table.
Wraiths could advance 18", not bad, and still charge for an extra CP. Scarabs would also like the extra 6". Most C'Tans too, since they can still fire their powers at end of move phase.
Immortals could move 11" and still shoot twice, albeit with -1 to hit.
Same with tesla tomb blades. Characters could get places to provide buffs.
You get the solar staff, which is not too shabby.
The vault could get in position for his CTan powers and still shoot decently.
Its not extra 6". Dont think about this bonus that way. With normal advance you get medium 3,5". So you get extra 2,5" and fly.
Most units prefere sautekh dynasty with better shoot after 3,5" advance.
Sautekh suffer the same -1 after advance as other dynasties, right? It's just that more weapons now get to shoot in the first place
Wraiths could advance 18", not bad, and still charge for an extra CP. Scarabs would also like the extra 6". Most C'Tans too, since they can still fire their powers at end of move phase.
Immortals could move 11" and still shoot twice, albeit with -1 to hit.
Same with tesla tomb blades. Characters could get places to provide buffs.
You get the solar staff, which is not too shabby.
The vault could get in position for his CTan powers and still shoot decently.
Its not extra 6". Dont think about this bonus that way. With normal advance you get medium 3,5". So you get extra 2,5" and fly.
Most units prefere sautekh dynasty with better shoot after 3,5" advance.
Sautekh suffer the same -1 after advance as other dynasties, right? It's just that more weapons now get to shoot in the first place
Yep, still have the -1 to hit... a real hoser for Tesla weapons, even with the strategem or MWBD.
Skullhammer wrote: I keep seeing deepstriking destroyers but cant find an ability in thd dex to allow this, how are people doing this?
Nephrek Destroyers can be placed in deep strike using a 1 point stratagem prior to the first battle round.
I think its called translocation crypt.
For now, it seems to be 100% the best way to use destroyers. Drop them in, pop eradication protocols, and delete something off the board. Their 24 inch range means they should not be able to be auspex scanned or the like, so double win there.
You can do the destroyer trick using C'Tan deceiver. Don't have to take an outrider detachment. Can Alpha turn 1.
Wraiths could advance 18", not bad, and still charge for an extra CP. Scarabs would also like the extra 6". Most C'Tans too, since they can still fire their powers at end of move phase.
Immortals could move 11" and still shoot twice, albeit with -1 to hit.
Same with tesla tomb blades. Characters could get places to provide buffs.
You get the solar staff, which is not too shabby.
The vault could get in position for his CTan powers and still shoot decently.
Its not extra 6". Dont think about this bonus that way. With normal advance you get medium 3,5". So you get extra 2,5" and fly.
Most units prefere sautekh dynasty with better shoot after 3,5" advance.
Sautekh suffer the same -1 after advance as other dynasties, right? It's just that more weapons now get to shoot in the first place
Yep, still have the -1 to hit... a real hoser for Tesla weapons, even with the strategem or MWBD.
Coupling with MWBD negates that, though, and it's really nice for Gauss weaponry since you can close the distance and still get some of that sweet AP-2 Immortal shooting.
Skullhammer wrote: I keep seeing deepstriking destroyers but cant find an ability in thd dex to allow this, how are people doing this?
Nephrek Destroyers can be placed in deep strike using a 1 point stratagem prior to the first battle round.
I think its called translocation crypt.
For now, it seems to be 100% the best way to use destroyers. Drop them in, pop eradication protocols, and delete something off the board. Their 24 inch range means they should not be able to be auspex scanned or the like, so double win there.
You can do the destroyer trick using C'Tan deceiver. Don't have to take an outrider detachment. Can Alpha turn 1.
Main downside being if you go second, they have to just sit out there and get shot. Deep Strike also keeps them safe from long range shooting things like Artillery and Flyers/other units that get up the board fast, so you can put them down when and where they'll be safe to shoot.
Nephrekh dynasty on a Warlord Anarkyr sandwich in between Flayed Ones and/or Lychguard could be nasty. Advance everything up turn 1 for maximum movement, use cover if possible.
Dispersion Field Stragem turn 1 for lychaguard for survivability and then use use Disruption field for increase Strength next turn when they get in.
Maybe use scarabs or wraiths to advance in front of these guys to pose a more immediate threat so that your opponent has to decide which to shoot. Thoughts?
Dynas wrote: Nephrekh dynasty on a Warlord Anarkyr sandwich in between Flayed Ones and/or Lychguard could be nasty. Advance everything up turn 1 for maximum movement, use cover if possible.
Dispersion Field Stragem turn 1 for lychaguard for survivability and then use use Disruption field for increase Strength next turn when they get in.
Maybe use scarabs or wraiths to advance in front of these guys to pose a more immediate threat so that your opponent has to decide which to shoot. Thoughts?
Probably would work for a casual, friendly game. I'd use a unit of wraiths to provide target priority issues.
Or, sell out, and run 18 Nephrek Wraiths, 10 Lychguard with Anrakyr in a Night Scythe, and then watch them scramble to try and beat all those units. Pretty lulzy stuff. I call the list "Space Jam" because it goes hard in the paint.
Dynas wrote: Nephrekh dynasty on a Warlord Anarkyr sandwich in between Flayed Ones and/or Lychguard could be nasty. Advance everything up turn 1 for maximum movement, use cover if possible.
Dispersion Field Stragem turn 1 for lychaguard for survivability and then use use Disruption field for increase Strength next turn when they get in.
Maybe use scarabs or wraiths to advance in front of these guys to pose a more immediate threat so that your opponent has to decide which to shoot. Thoughts?
I'd rather just use Warlord Kutlakh at that point.
Requizen wrote: Does Kutlakh get to pick a Warlord Trait? How does Maynarkh even work with Dynasty Codes/Artifacts/Stratagems?
It's a custom dynasty as far as codex rules are concerned, pick the features of any dynasty
Well, RAW, he doesn't get a Warlord Trait because he's a Named Character, and Named Characters have to use the Trait of their Dynasty, there is none for <Maynarkh>, though one could argue his "advance + charge" rule is essentially a Warlord Trait.
However, if your units are <Maynarkh>, then they can't use the Stratagem or Artifact of any named Dynasty, since those specifically reference <Sautekh> or <Novokh> or whatever. So you could have a <Maynarkh> unit that uses <Novokh> Code to reroll hits in the first round of Combat, but they could never use Blood Rites since that specifies a "<Novokh> Unit".
Requizen wrote: Does Kutlakh get to pick a Warlord Trait? How does Maynarkh even work with Dynasty Codes/Artifacts/Stratagems?
Until FW picks one for him, yeah you're picking the Code and Warlord Trait. You won't get the relic though that's special, and unsure how the specific Stratatgems would work. I know with Marines you're allowed to use the parent Chapter Strategem (proven with Bolter Drill being usable with Kantor and crew).
Requizen wrote: Does Kutlakh get to pick a Warlord Trait? How does Maynarkh even work with Dynasty Codes/Artifacts/Stratagems?
Until FW picks one for him, yeah you're picking the Code and Warlord Trait. You won't get the relic though that's special, and unsure how the specific Stratatgems would work. I know with Marines you're allowed to use the parent Chapter Strategem (proven with Bolter Drill being usable with Kantor and crew).
Huh, yeah it's only the code that you get with the current wording. As a named character he shouldn't have an extra trait I agree.
Came Across this from a high level tourney player. Interesting quote regarding the FAQ:
"Durable units that can take shooting for a bit while they wait for reinforcements will see more play, and faster units that can effectively redeploy will be more valuable to make up for the momentum loss."
Da W wrote: I almost see no point of taking a 1CP force when you can just add 3X5 immortals and a cryptek for 5CP. That's +340pts for +4CP and its not like those points will do nothing on the table! You at least need a bataillon, i think you waste enormous potential if you do not.
Uh, yeah, that's why I said,
skoffs wrote: see if I can fit a Deceiver Super-Heavy Bomb™ in with a minimum Nephrekh Battalion, dropping the three troop units on to objectives instead of having them march there.
However, after doing the math, it looks like the cheapest Battalion load out (2x Sword Lords, 3x 5 Immortals) that includes the Deceiver + Vaults is 2120 points, so the Super-Heavy Bomb build isn't going to work (you could technically still fit a Super-Heavy Detachment and a bare minimum requirements Battalion together in one 2000 point list... but to do so you would need to take 2 Obelisks with the Vault, so that's definitely not worth it.)
If you're going for a Battalion to try for maximum CP, looks like you're restricted to taking the Vault as an Auxiliary only. (which is fine).
If you want 3x Vaults + The Deceiver you're going to have to opt for an Outrider.
You can also take triple cloaktek supreme command as a medic squad with some upgraded staff of light.
I'm very excited with all these changes. This really is a new game....it shifts every army and play strategy in one way or another.
I do think it's kind of ironic that we seemed to be at a disadvantage with the necron army in a lot of aspects and the "solution" wasn't to improve our army, but instead to alter the entire meta.
I really like where this is all headed and I'm very optimistic about the results. I think there will still be a little tweaking, but overall it's going to be good.
I'm hopeful that the Monolith might be worthwhile now....I think it's still a little too pricey, but in casual games that teleportation is going to be a lot of fun.
iGuy91 wrote: Probably would work for a casual, friendly game. I'd use a unit of wraiths to provide target priority issues. Or, sell out, and run 18 Nephrek Wraiths, 10 Lychguard with Anrakyr in a Night Scythe, and then watch them scramble to try and beat all those units. Pretty lulzy stuff. I call the list "Space Jam" because it goes hard in the paint.
How does Anrakyr utilize a Night Scythe? He doesn't have a dynasty keyword. Has this been addressed?
Dynas wrote: Came Across this from a high level tourney player. Interesting quote regarding the FAQ:
"Durable units that can take shooting for a bit while they wait for reinforcements will see more play, and faster units that can effectively redeploy will be more valuable to make up for the momentum loss."
I think the pure Nephrekh Battalion has potential merit for competitive play. I do like manuever and space occupying armies especially with the card game. I read Nick's blog on the FAQ as well.
Here's my look at a 1750 that would utilise the exclusive Nephrekh goodies.
- A big block of Lychguard to occupy space on the table. As Nephrekh they can move minimum 11" and through/over terrain to reposition up the board quickly onto objectives. These guys are the anvil which is an element any manuever army really needs to occupy the centre so not to have your army walked off the board.
- An Overlord + 10 Tesla Immortals likely within arms reach of the Lychguard. Filling the Battalion and making use of MWBD first turn. Immortals can fetch objectives as needed.
- Two big blocks of 20 Warriors. These will likely deepstrike in most games where I need them via the stratagem.
- Canoptek Cryptek with the Solar Staff and 2x9 Scarabs. These are the disruptors who can hit the enemy at the same time my Warriors blocks drop, to prevent them being tied up in combat the turn after. (Can't leave combat with scarabs and charge warriors). The Nephrekh Solar staff relic is in it's element with it's special effect here that can turn off overwatch on my assaulting scarabs as well as a -1 to hit on return attacks the turn I charge them.
- A full unit of Destroyers in the pocket as firefighters, what they do best.
Warlord trait I'm not sure of - Immortal Hubris is probably the safest, though it's tempting to just pick the Nephrekh exclusive one for 4/4 uses of the Dynasty over 3/4.
I think this army has some real potential in the card objective based games/Beta striking - while it's not a point and click gunline it's so good at putting things where they need to be, and it doesn't give a whole lot away as juicy targets early - 10 Shield Lychguard, 10 Immortals or some Scarabs? Come at me...
Heavy Destroyers [9 PL, 171pts] . 3x Heavy Destroyer: 3x Heavy Gauss Cannon
Heavy Destroyers [9 PL, 171pts] . 3x Heavy Destroyer: 3x Heavy Gauss Cannon
[b]++ Total: [87 PL, 1747pts]
Which is a list built purely on shooting the opponent off the board. Totally different in strategy to win, but is it more effective or just differently effective?
skoffs wrote: As an experiment I thought I'd try to see what our absolute maximum CP amount would be in a 2000 point list using the new list building restrictions in the FAQ:
• maximum 3 detachments
• only 1 of any detachment type • maximum 3 of any particular unit (excluding Troops).
Spoiler:
++ Brigade Detachment +12CP [66 PL, 1281pts] ++
+ HQ +
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword
Looks like the maximum CP we can get is 21 (including 3 for battleforged).
(and no, there was no way to fit Imotekh in for an extra 1 CP this time with these restrictions)
Note: this is not meant to be a "good list".
I was just trying to see what our absolute limits were.
I'm not seeing only one of any detachment type in the FAQ, where is this?
- Canoptek Cryptek with the Solar Staff and 2x9 Scarabs. These are the disruptors who can hit the enemy at the same time my Warriors blocks drop, to prevent them being tied up in combat the turn after. (Can't leave combat with scarabs and charge warriors). The Nephrekh Solar staff relic is in it's element with it's special effect here that can turn off overwatch on my assaulting scarabs as well as a -1 to hit on return attacks the turn I charge them.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the solar staff get a potential -1 to hit for each successful hit it gets?
The general idea is to Grand Illusion some combination of troops/HQ to cover or outside RF range depending on turn order. There's only a 11.1% chance of getting 1 unit when command reroll is used, so it seems pretty reliable to get at least 2 units along with the Deceiver.
Wraiths will be deployed near edge of deployment to move, advance, and 1CP charge one of them. Idea is to force opponent to make a choice between targeting troops or getting multiple units locked up next turn.
DDAs will be deployed on any objective found in my deployment. If objective is put in a bad spot for them (in cover or out of LOS), scarabs will take their place. 5 scarabs should be durable enough to survive 1-2 rounds of IDF.
I haven't picked a Dynasty yet, but I'm leaning towards Nephrekh for Wraiths 6" advance or Sautekh for Warriors/DDA movement/advance. Mephrit is an option, but that more so relies on me getting first turn and placing units in RF range.
Another detachment is an option, but for 1CP, I don't see much value any more compared to a battalion. 2 battalions could work, but running MSU troops is the exact opposite of what Necrons want with RP, not to mention easy primary points in ITC. If not running MSU troops, then you'll be infantry heavy and running yourself too thin in other categories (TEQ, AV). Both of which aren't considering the high tax we pay for our HQs either...
Dynas wrote: Came Across this from a high level tourney player. Interesting quote regarding the FAQ:
"Durable units that can take shooting for a bit while they wait for reinforcements will see more play, and faster units that can effectively redeploy will be more valuable to make up for the momentum loss."
Sounds like necrons to me, with some wraiths, Tomb Blades and Teleporting Deciever/Monolith support to me.
was agreeing all the way till you said the monolith >.< still dont see it getting played in the top lists
It definitely won't be in top lists, but it seems to have more strategic purpose in casual games now. It's still over-costed or under-gunned, whichever way you want to view it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: I think the pure Nephrekh Battalion has potential merit for competitive play. I do like manuever and space occupying armies especially with the card game. I read Nick's blog on the FAQ as well.
- Two big blocks of 20 Warriors. These will likely deepstrike in most games where I need them via the stratagem.
You know you can only use the deep strike stratagem once per turn right?
torblind wrote: It happens before the first phase, so the once per phase limitation doesn't affect it
Oh....I was under the impression you would put two units into reserve, but then you'd only be able to bring one in per turn....but i guess that wouldn't make sense since you'd pay 1 cp for each unit at the time you put them into reserve.
You can use the Veil of Darkness to pull a unit out of close-combat, which means they didn't fall back right?
Where was this rule written again? I can't find it anywhere in any of the FAQ's.
It's in the rulebook faq... it's in the Q&A section
Automatically Appended Next Post: Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy
unit but elects to remain stationary, but subsequently uses a rule
that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up
again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity
psychic power, is it considered to have Fallen Back this turn?
A: No.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy,
can it use a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then
sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the
Gate of Infinity psychic power?
A: Yes.
I think Nephrek should be the default dynasty for battalions if you are running more than 1 detachment, not only are they good for destroyers, but they are arguably our best dynasty for troops. Moving 11" a turn through, over, and past obstacles/enemy units is great for obsec units. I recently went undefeated in a tournament in part because I was so good at getting on objectives and holding them. It also makes our foot HQ much more mobile as well, which enables mobile phalanxes.
Mephrit requires our troops to be close to get the advantage of -1 AP, which is easier said than done for units that moves 5". Nihilakh requires them to stand still to get the reroll ones to hit, which we won't get if we send our troops to capture objectives. I don't see Warriors and immortals taking advantage of Novokh, they aren't really great in CC and are too slow to catch the few units that are worse in CC.
If I were going mono detachment sautekh would probably be my choice, since they are the second best for our troops (maybe best depending on application), since they can advance and fire their weapons. The dynasty also buffs several units such as CCBs, Annihilation barges, Doom Scythes, and wraiths with Transdimensional beamers. Access to the majority of our special characters is what seals the deal.
Nihilakh seems the best for a spearhead detachment, go for two DDA a spyder and a cloak tek, so they repair any incoming damage and the DDA can reroll ones since they don't have to move with their range.
Is there any other faction that can do tricks like the Deceiver and VoD? We pretty much became the best alpha strike if we get to go 1st and if you have a Deceiver.
Also, I think Toholk re-roll to seize is getting a bit looked over. He is the price of Anrakyr but he does let one Vehicle heal D3 wounds rather than 1 via living metal. Also has 5+ invul for Maynark infantry units.
His re-roll to size is the main reason you take him though. Going 1st for us has never had such an impact in 8th edition until the FaQ.
skoffs wrote: If you want 3x Vaults + The Deceiver you're going to have to opt for an Outrider.
For a triple TV list, you could run a Vanguard instead if you have Deathmarks.
They're effected by the deep strike limitations, but Deceiver + Lord + Vaults leaves you with just enough points left over for two squads of them. Flayed Ones also work, but IMO Deathmarks synergize better since they'd be able to finish off any characters that the vaults soften up on T1.
It leaves you with just enough points to run an Overlord with a Warscythe or a Cloaktek with a Staff (relic Sautekh if running cloaktek imo, since you can't repair until T3 if you plan on veiling).
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
skoffs wrote: If you want 3x Vaults + The Deceiver you're going to have to opt for an Outrider.
For a triple TV list, you could run a Vanguard instead if you have Deathmarks.
They're effected by the deep strike limitations, but Deceiver + Lord + Vaults leaves you with just enough points left over for two squads of them. Flayed Ones also work, but IMO Deathmarks synergize better since they'd be able to finish off any characters that the vaults soften up on T1.
It leaves you with just enough points to run an Overlord with a Warscythe or a Cloaktek with a Staff (relic Sautekh if running cloaktek imo, since you can't repair until T3 if you plan on veiling).
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
++ Total: [102 PL, 1988pts] ++
Actually, that ain't bad. I might consider going with a Lord for the HQ choice, as his wound rerolls significantly help Deathmarks would can potentially change a 1 into a 6.
Also, in regards to Nephrekh,
I'm telling you guys,
A unit of ObSec 20 Warriors held back until turn three to T.C. drop on to an objective your opponent thought was going to be his could very much be game winning.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Holding units in DS might be okay but i feel like if you're holding them you have less firepower => do less damage to opponent.
That's always the compromise.
The "good" thing with warriors in that regard is that they don't really deal that much damage.
Yeah, in the above case they're being used more for their superior numbers suddenly appearing on an objective with them being objective secured. The potential to surprise deny your opponent a clutch point there should not be underestimated.
(Plus, you know, being able to clear some extra campers off via rapid fire range is just icing on the cake)
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Holding units in DS might be okay but i feel like if you're holding them you have less firepower => do less damage to opponent.
That's always the compromise.
The "good" thing with warriors in that regard is that they don't really deal that much damage.
Yeah, in the above case they're being used more for their superior numbers suddenly appearing on an objective with them being objective secured. The potential to surprise deny your opponent a clutch point there should not be underestimated.
(Plus, you know, being able to clear some extra campers off via rapid fire range is just icing on the cake)
They do however take 240 points from other units in your army that could deal good damage (13 immortals, almost 5 destroyers), That's what you need to way in.
Personally think this is going to be the job of my destroyers, yes they are not object secure, but with their -ap, they should just remove a camped unit.
I mean, you could always have a 5 man immortal squad do a similar job (be objective secured that can drop in and steal an objective from non ObSec units that were hoping to cap a point). I'd say that's be with a CP.
Just remember that waiting til turn 3 means you are giving your opponent a chance to zone away from objectives as well. And with the 9" zone, they can easily make it so you can't drop anywhere near an objective.
On the other hand, you should have softened them up enough that they have less zoning tools... But if you're Nephrekh, you could achieve similar results just by Advancing the Warriors and still letting them screen.
It's a useful tool if, say, you're playing Hammer and Anvil and there's one on the far back end you'll never reach, though. I just wouldn't make DSing Warriors my main tactic.
iGuy91 wrote: Probably would work for a casual, friendly game. I'd use a unit of wraiths to provide target priority issues. Or, sell out, and run 18 Nephrek Wraiths, 10 Lychguard with Anrakyr in a Night Scythe, and then watch them scramble to try and beat all those units. Pretty lulzy stuff. I call the list "Space Jam" because it goes hard in the paint.
How does Anrakyr utilize a Night Scythe? He doesn't have a dynasty keyword. Has this been addressed?
It was addressed in the most recent FAQ for Arankyr and Szeras
Grimgold wrote:I think Nephrek should be the default dynasty for battalions if you are running more than 1 detachment, not only are they good for destroyers, but they are arguably our best dynasty for troops. Moving 11" a turn through, over, and past obstacles/enemy units is great for obsec units. I recently went undefeated in a tournament in part because I was so good at getting on objectives and holding them. It also makes our foot HQ much more mobile as well, which enables mobile phalanxes.
Mephrit requires our troops to be close to get the advantage of -1 AP, which is easier said than done for units that moves 5". Nihilakh requires them to stand still to get the reroll ones to hit, which we won't get if we send our troops to capture objectives. I don't see Warriors and immortals taking advantage of Novokh, they aren't really great in CC and are too slow to catch the few units that are worse in CC.
If I were going mono detachment sautekh would probably be my choice, since they are the second best for our troops (maybe best depending on application), since they can advance and fire their weapons. The dynasty also buffs several units such as CCBs, Annihilation barges, Doom Scythes, and wraiths with Transdimensional beamers. Access to the majority of our special characters is what seals the deal.
Nihilakh seems the best for a spearhead detachment, go for two DDA a spyder and a cloak tek, so they repair any incoming damage and the DDA can reroll ones since they don't have to move with their range.
I agree with this assessment. I like running a mono Dynasty with Immotekh, though I can see how a Nihilakh spearhead and Novokh Outrider are powerful. Similarly to the Tyranid book taking different detachments from different hive fleets, I see competitive Necron lists running at least 2, if not 3 different dynasties. Sautehk or Mephrit for the battalion depending on flavor, with Nihilakh and Novokh detachments.
iGuy91 wrote: Probably would work for a casual, friendly game. I'd use a unit of wraiths to provide target priority issues. Or, sell out, and run 18 Nephrek Wraiths, 10 Lychguard with Anrakyr in a Night Scythe, and then watch them scramble to try and beat all those units. Pretty lulzy stuff. I call the list "Space Jam" because it goes hard in the paint.
How does Anrakyr utilize a Night Scythe? He doesn't have a dynasty keyword. Has this been addressed?
It was addressed in the most recent FAQ for Arankyr and Szeras
Wasn't that just for warlord traits?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Woha, check out this Facebook reply from GW:
iGuy91 wrote: Probably would work for a casual, friendly game. I'd use a unit of wraiths to provide target priority issues. Or, sell out, and run 18 Nephrek Wraiths, 10 Lychguard with Anrakyr in a Night Scythe, and then watch them scramble to try and beat all those units. Pretty lulzy stuff. I call the list "Space Jam" because it goes hard in the paint.
How does Anrakyr utilize a Night Scythe? He doesn't have a dynasty keyword. Has this been addressed?
It was addressed in the most recent FAQ for Arankyr and Szeras
Wait, I thought that was in regards to his interactions with Warlord trait buffs they can give out?
Can they actually use Ghost Arks/Night Scythes/Monoliths/be Veil'd now?
iGuy91 wrote: Probably would work for a casual, friendly game. I'd use a unit of wraiths to provide target priority issues. Or, sell out, and run 18 Nephrek Wraiths, 10 Lychguard with Anrakyr in a Night Scythe, and then watch them scramble to try and beat all those units. Pretty lulzy stuff. I call the list "Space Jam" because it goes hard in the paint.
How does Anrakyr utilize a Night Scythe? He doesn't have a dynasty keyword. Has this been addressed?
It was addressed in the most recent FAQ for Arankyr and Szeras
Wasn't that just for warlord traits?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Woha, check out this Facebook reply from GW:
iGuy91 wrote: Probably would work for a casual, friendly game. I'd use a unit of wraiths to provide target priority issues. Or, sell out, and run 18 Nephrek Wraiths, 10 Lychguard with Anrakyr in a Night Scythe, and then watch them scramble to try and beat all those units. Pretty lulzy stuff. I call the list "Space Jam" because it goes hard in the paint.
How does Anrakyr utilize a Night Scythe? He doesn't have a dynasty keyword. Has this been addressed?
It was addressed in the most recent FAQ for Arankyr and Szeras
Wasn't that just for warlord traits?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Woha, check out this Facebook reply from GW:
Except nothing in the answer indicates that such abilities can bypass the restriction of not being able to DS into the enemy's half of the board in the first turn.
torblind wrote: Well, specifying that they can do so because they started the battle deployed ok the battlefield certainly is some indication
That's an interesting point. If the intent was you can do it either way but only in your deployment zone then what difference does the line about them starting on the battlefield matter?
It was a poorly worded question, and so the answer had no bearing. Besides, the Facebook crew have said that they aren't an official source for rulings...
So, it's a fart in the wind... best let it go.
Anpu-adom wrote: It was a poorly worded question, and so the answer had no bearing. Besides, the Facebook crew have said that they aren't an official source for rulings...
So, it's a fart in the wind... best let it go.
If you read further down in the comments for that question Warhammer 40000 responds again. Here are two quotes in sequence
"Chris Holden: I believe it falls under the same catagory as the Raven Guard's Statagem and Genestealer Cult exceptions as it isn't holding them back in reserve as such and it is before the first battle round begins."
"Warhammer 40,000: As Chris has said, this can be benefited from as you're re-deploying a unit which is already on the table."
)
) and wanted to see how hard it would be to put them together.
