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No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 20:47:12


Post by: tneva82


 Grimskul wrote:


It's those above average rolls that really play an important psychological factor against opponents though, as they'll mainly remember the times you rolled above 10 for strength and you oneshot their centerpiece models. After something like that, I've noticed my opponents overreact in deployment based on where my SAG Mek is, and even make it a priority to try and remove him, making it easy to bait or counter-deploy what he uses to try and get at him.


Well not that you really need that S11+. Especially when you have the +1 to wound warlord trait. First round of shooting. 10 S8 shots vs death company dreadnought. 25 wounds before 6+++. Take that. BOOM! Next caused like 16 wounds to that T8 vindicator. Wounding on 3+ and BOOM! Then 12 wounds to that baal predator.

Turn 4 it finally only got 3 S5 shots against scouts Opponent was like "NOW you rolled bad". Didn't help his mood that his 4 sniper scouts were totally unable to even hurt him. 3+ in cover and he failed to get 6's to wound.

Boommity boom boom boom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote:

Nice. I had 3 games with one last weekend. 2/3 games he was amazing rolling S7 or higher. the 2nd game I played and the terrible one, he rolled snake eyes for strength 2 turns in a row. All 3 games and he didn't get an 11 or 12 for Strength. Still managed to wreak havoc though in the games he did well. Ran him as Deathskulls to reroll 1 hit roll and 1 wound roll and 1 damage roll. A couple times I turned a 1 damage on a Carnifex into 6 damage. My opponent was blown by this.


Ditto. And with the warlord trait 5+ to wound is worst I have vs vehicle or monster. So it's mainly bad shots that screw me. That's what command rerolls are for ;-)

And yeah death skull is excelent clan trait for him. Especially with relic SAG as you have the shoot twice strategem from there anyway in case you want it so no need to be bad moon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
Hell i HAVNT gotten an 11/12 with my supa sag in a game yet, but my friends know what it does if i do and they still tend to avoid the SAG at all costs.


I got it last time vs ad mech with my non relic SAG. With help of those warglaive was one shotted much to surprise of the ad mech ;-)

Relic is even better for that as less chance of low shots screwing with it. Non relic it's super hard to get 4+ shots and S11+.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 20:55:26


Post by: Vineheart01


Truth. S11+ is more for hitting the REALLY big things (knights) or when you run out of big things and hitting stuff with multiple models. I forget the name of those FW dreads that look like oversized marines but theyre fairly beefy and my SAG still deleted one every time it shot lol
Causing D3 mortal wounds on hit (not wound) and then causing normal damage is just rude. Im glad they changed that from the Index which was no wound rolls, just does D3 mortals. Actually felt like a downgrade for rolling it unless you were hitting a 3++ target (which of course mortal wounds bypass)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 21:19:51


Post by: tneva82


True. But with 2d6 shots and +1 to wound anyway the S11+ seems less needed. Seems to be doing great amount of damage even without S11+. S5 I'm alreeady wounding on pretty much any vehicle on 4+ with 1 reroll and then d6 damage's with 1 reroll. With decent number of hits(good thing that 2d6 shots exists) that caused big dent even without mortal wounds.

It's still bit of random as the turn 4 shooting showed on the low end but all in all that relic+warlord trait makes it much more reliable. Albeit that was price of 2 CP and warlord trait so not cheap by any stretch of imagination.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 21:24:45


Post by: Vineheart01


well, yeah its a bummer to not have a trait on the Wartrike or boss on bike but they tend to die shortly after they get combat, for me anyway. So i almost always gave up slay the warlord.
SupaSAG is literally the only warlord option we have that doesnt go into the enemy's face at some point. And is snipe-proof with grot shields. So theres that boon too.
Also i run Bad Moonz because with 2D6 shots i feel the reroll 1s to hit is superior to 1 reroll hit/wound/damage. Personally. I dont have the right models to run multiple small units with kustommegas to properly abuse deathskulls lol


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 21:34:33


Post by: tneva82


 Vineheart01 wrote:
well, yeah its a bummer to not have a trait on the Wartrike or boss on bike but they tend to die shortly after they get combat, for me anyway. So i almost always gave up slay the warlord.
SupaSAG is literally the only warlord option we have that doesnt go into the enemy's face at some point. And is snipe-proof with grot shields. So theres that boon too.
Also i run Bad Moonz because with 2D6 shots i feel the reroll 1s to hit is superior to 1 reroll hit/wound/damage. Personally. I dont have the right models to run multiple small units with kustommegas to properly abuse deathskulls lol


Odds of rolling more than one 1 is pretty low even with 2d6 shots. Even with 6 shots it's not even quaranteed to get ONE let alone multiples(odds are actually less than 70% for getting at least one 1 with 6 dice...). So if you roll 6 or less it's not that uncommon to not be able to reroll even one. And that reroll to wound and damage roll is also pretty sweet. IMO good trade off for MAYBE one reroll. 3+ rerolls with bad moons would be very rare occurance.

I have no kustom megas but power klaws it's great as well and now trying some rokkits on boyz(I have 6 rokkits on paint job plus alternative nob with power klaw AND kombi rokkit. Kombi rokkit is actually priority over rokkit boy as same price as regular rokkit and nob is generally last to die). 55% chance to hit with S8 -2 D3 with reroll to wound isn't that bad for odd 12 points. Also 6++ has been handy and I have actually got mileage out of obsec with characters time to time(need to figure way to mark which weirdboys are deathskulls for this).

And yes warlord being somebody who isn't going to die next round is actually nice side bonus I was bleeding warlord kill vp all the time before.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 21:35:50


Post by: cody.d.


I'm just going to put this out there because I feel it's worth noting that in the context of an ITC tournement. The ITC secondaries do not favor the Ork armylist, which relies on numerous cheaper, somewhat flimsy units used in large numbers. Whereas the big boogeymen for Orks; Yinnari and Imperial Soup can build lists that exploit or minimize the amount of points the enemy can get their hands on.

Or at least that's my experience when writing and facing lists.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 21:39:00


Post by: Vineheart01


Yeah, in theory if you roll max hits you got 2 rerolls from bad moonz trait.
In theory. My dice never seem to behave that way. I feel like i always roll 1s even when i grab my opponent's dice instead of mine.
Firing 9 SAG shots and getting 5 1s was both hilarious and annoying. Thank god i was bad moonz though lol.

to each their own.

Also yeah i guess it works wonders for PKs, didnt htink about that. The shooty ork in me tends to forget about melee perks of other kultures lol. Im just used to our melee being about as good as it can get without wargear changes. Kind of the reason i think Goff is the lamest kulture...do we really need exploding melee dice when it sacrifices durability or mobility? Nope.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 21:48:57


Post by: snakeeater


xlDuke wrote:
Just a quick note - you can't use Showin' Off to shoot a Dakkajet twice, the stratagem is only for Infantry units.

For Tau I would say you want to prioritise getting rid of as many Drones as possible as early as you can, after that I would prioritise the Firewarriors and sources of Markerlights. Drones can take damage for other nearby units (Infantry and Battlesuits primarily) and massed Firewarrior combined with his other units can stop your charges dead in their tracks. Dakkajets will be great for killing Firewarrior and Drones if you go first, if you don't go first and you're not out of range they will be gone in the blink of an eye.



Oh, damm! i didnt see that showin off was only for infantry!. My bad. Sorry :(

I will think what you say and tonight i will make some changes to my list then


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/19 21:49:32


Post by: tneva82


 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, in theory if you roll max hits you got 2 rerolls from bad moonz trait.
In theory. My dice never seem to behave that way. I feel like i always roll 1s even when i grab my opponent's dice instead of mine.
Firing 9 SAG shots and getting 5 1s was both hilarious and annoying. Thank god i was bad moonz though lol.


Well I believe in luck averaging out so it's about averages ;-) And rolling those failed to wounds and then 1 for damage sucks as well.


Also yeah i guess it works wonders for PKs, didnt htink about that. The shooty ork in me tends to forget about melee perks of other kultures lol. Im just used to our melee being about as good as it can get without wargear changes. Kind of the reason i think Goff is the lamest kulture...do we really need exploding melee dice when it sacrifices durability or mobility? Nope.


Generally I favour big choppas with nobs but death skulls are ones where power klaw gets not that insignificant boost. Reroll 1 to hit dice when you have 3-4 is good. Rerolling failed wound roll also adds some extra help and rerolling that d3 generally helps. And having something beefy can help when there's something tough lone models like characters. Sometimes it just ain't possible to cram enough models into combat vs one 2+ save model. Here for example I was almost going to kill that librarian with nob. 4 attacks, got 3 hits(thanks reroll). 3 wounds(thanks reroll since I rolled one 1 to wound...). All I then needed was get 5 on 3d3 with 1 reroll. 2, 1, 1. Reroll 1 and 1...Well that was unlucky that cost me Badruk and 2 smasha guns and gave him maelstrom objective since he cast wings of fire that gave keyword fly for his terminator and he needed to kill something why unit with fly keyword

So yeah. Evil suns I'm leaning toward big choppas, death skulls been adding power klaw nobs to collection. It's not huge thing but I think it's slightly better weapon there if I can afford the points. The clan trait is perfect for power klaw giving reroll potentials on all 3 rolls and taking away 2 of it's weaknesses a bit.

And yeah I'm not fan of goff culture either. Skarboyz have some place but overall I'm ranking them among worst ones. Blood axes I'm even less of fan though. The goffs just help where orks rarely need help anyway and lack delivery method. And if you have like 1 unit enemy can ddeal with that unless they come from deep strike and then that's 58% chance and without rolling higher than 9 you might not even get that much into combat vs worthwhile target against proper deploying.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 07:09:50


Post by: hollow one


cody.d. wrote:
I'm just going to put this out there because I feel it's worth noting that in the context of an ITC tournement. The ITC secondaries do not favor the Ork armylist, which relies on numerous cheaper, somewhat flimsy units used in large numbers. Whereas the big boogeymen for Orks; Yinnari and Imperial Soup can build lists that exploit or minimize the amount of points the enemy can get their hands on.

Or at least that's my experience when writing and facing lists.
You're right, there are certainly disadvantages for us in ITC secondaries. We used to get hurt because Reaper (20 models) and Marked for Death (units with >PL7) overlapped, and if you brought 90 boyz in three squads you gave up 7 free points basically. And you're right we give up Butcher's Bill (2 units a turn) really easily as well thanks to the grot squads. It's a major reason why I think Mek Gunz are not extremely viable in ITC, because you almost always give up BB and Kill More, which is brutal. So you're right, you gotta build your list to win on primary and do well enough on secondary, since you're definitely giving up points there. But there are minor adjustments you can make to cover some of this ground, for example leaning toward 30 grot squad sizes and adding a runtherd or making sure there is a warlord close enough to smite for morale might help on some turns. But you're always giving up Reaper, just accept that and don't build around it.

So maybe you make a list that always takes Hold More, so focus on durability and ground coverage (weigh painboys and KFFs highly), or build a glass cannon list that cripples opponents fast enough that you can squeeze out wins with our superior movement (da jump is just better than everything). Glass cannon builds need to have lootas, at least 15, and probably a lot of screen killing (boyz with shootas, dakka jets, etc).

The good news is mate, Reaper no longer overlaps specifically with Marked for Death, that's a huge boon for horde, and probably helps in the boy spam list. We're also gaining some more options in secondaries, there's King of the Hill now (controlling the center), which can stack with recon if you have enough units on the board. However, there are some really interesting lists from orcs that bypass these concerns, like Liam Hackett's ANZ40k list (30 MANz), however the new Gang Busters rules makes this less exciting.

Keep in mind, imperial soup often has guard squads that you can exploit for points or Kill More, Ynnari lacks the board presence to keep you off Hold More... you've got to play to your army's strengths in objective based games dude. Although I'll admit I often have trouble picking secondaries vs Eldar, hopefully there are enough units to consider Butcher's Bill and then you've got a game.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 09:07:33


Post by: tneva82


OTOH board control based secondaries looks like you would own.

Well not that it really matters for me. I don't think there's 1 ITC tournamnt here. Here standard tournament scenarios are mix of eternal war+maelstrom+kill points(max gap 6).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last night there was on local whatsup bit of talk among new players and one was mentioning 750 pts knight army. Another said to effect of that's not casual(new player with knights. Basically all he owns).

Well it occured to me that for orks that small point value knights could be actually super EASY to deal with. 750 pts gives you double battallions. 2 weirdboys, relic SAG w/+1 to wound WT, relic claw warboss, 30 boyz, 5x10 grots, 2 smasha guns. Could be even more brutal with 12x10 grots instead.

Good example of how small games have huge effect on balance. I'm struggling to figure how knights could win this list. SAG will be causing damage fairly reliable. Smasha guns also good damage dealer. Warboss with fist of gork will alone nearly kill big knight in average with fight twice(either normally or after dying) and knights struggle to prevent that(especially with da jump).

Would be ashamed to be bringing this one vs knights in that small game for sure!

Would be rather annoying

Anybody can come up with even nastier anti-knight 750 pts list army?-)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 12:06:44


Post by: G00fySmiley


On the relic SAG while rolling a 11 or 12 is grand I play plannign for averages so I generally speaking assume the SAG will be str 7 and plan accordingly. This has been helpful as I have yet to roll over a 9 on the thing since the codex was released.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 12:45:53


Post by: Jidmah


Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 13:04:32


Post by: PiñaColada


 Jidmah wrote:
Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.

Well, I think the potentially good thing about the blitz brigade is the "Hold on, boyz!" stratagem. It allows you to move up tankbustas on the board quickly without advancing. It also doesn't have the restriction of da jump, meaning they have to end up over 9" away. Effectively you can pull of T1 "extra stikkbombs" on tankbustas against overzealous knight players. Sure, it's a CP investment and those tankbustas are going to be in a rough spot after that but that play might come in handy at times. Not generally worth the detachment, but a potential new wrinkle to your game if you like running tankbustas.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 13:25:20


Post by: Vineheart01


literally the only reason to use the Dread Waaagh is supa-sag + another shoot twice stratagem that works on morkanauts and said supasag.
Rest of that detachment is nothing to mention. But those two things are seriously awesome and easily green text worthy.

Blitz Brigade i dont even think would be that good if battlewagons were better. Lot of it forces you to keep an ~80pt model inside the wagon for a buff you could get just by running Bad Moonz in the first place if you REALLY wanted that reroll. Ive been tempted to run it purely for the Hang On Ladz! but its one of those things where when you make the list you kinda groan at it thinking "this....feels really weak..."

Who the hell would EVER use the stompa one? Three stompas....which means game big enough for the enemy to field macro weapons easily and just shred them even faster than they already do w/o macros. Even if stompas went to like 550pts each i doubt i'd use this detachment.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 13:25:47


Post by: Jidmah


PiñaColada wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.

Well, I think the potentially good thing about the blitz brigade is the "Hold on, boyz!" stratagem. It allows you to move up tankbustas on the board quickly without advancing. It also doesn't have the restriction of da jump, meaning they have to end up over 9" away. Effectively you can pull of T1 "extra stikkbombs" on tankbustas against overzealous knight players. Sure, it's a CP investment and those tankbustas are going to be in a rough spot after that but that play might come in handy at times. Not generally worth the detachment, but a potential new wrinkle to your game if you like running tankbustas.


Not really, since the wagon moves 12" and the tank bustas need to be deployed wholly within 3" if it, so you still end up somewhere midfield.
In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first. If they are inside a transport, why not just stay inside and shoot? Knight's can't shoot a transport and its passengers in the same phase, so I'd rather take my chances with that.
I also seriously doubt that a knight player wouldn't deploy as far back as possible when there is the possibility of a bonebreaker charging the knight turn 1.

I have tried using it multiple times (my army is a blitz brigade), the best uses are catapulting a mob of boyz up the field for T2 charges or switching flanks.

The stratagem would be awesome if
a) it weren't limited to BATTLEWAGON - you cannot use it with a bonebreaka
b) it were a basic stratagem rather than one you need to unlock first for a 1 CP even if you might not need it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 13:38:06


Post by: tneva82


 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first.


What kind of terrain people are playing where you can't hide even one unit?

Here people can hide knight for that matter. One battlewagon goes into hiding easily.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 13:41:58


Post by: PiñaColada


 Jidmah wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.

Well, I think the potentially good thing about the blitz brigade is the "Hold on, boyz!" stratagem. It allows you to move up tankbustas on the board quickly without advancing. It also doesn't have the restriction of da jump, meaning they have to end up over 9" away. Effectively you can pull of T1 "extra stikkbombs" on tankbustas against overzealous knight players. Sure, it's a CP investment and those tankbustas are going to be in a rough spot after that but that play might come in handy at times. Not generally worth the detachment, but a potential new wrinkle to your game if you like running tankbustas.


Not really, since the wagon moves 12" and the tank bustas need to be deployed wholly within 3" if it, so you still end up somewhere midfield.
In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first. If they are inside a transport, why not just stay inside and shoot? Knight's can't shoot a transport and its passengers in the same phase, so I'd rather take my chances with that.
I also seriously doubt that a knight player wouldn't deploy as far back as possible when there is the possibility of a bonebreaker charging the knight turn 1.

I have tried using it multiple times (my army is a blitz brigade), the best uses are catapulting a mob of boyz up the field for T2 charges or switching flanks.

The stratagem would be awesome if
a) it weren't limited to BATTLEWAGON - you cannot use it with a bonebreaka
b) it were a basic stratagem rather than one you need to unlock first for a 1 CP even if you might not need it.

While I do mostly agree with your sentiment, there are a couple of things to consider.

1, You need to disembark with every model within 3", not wholly within. Meaning if the tip of each of those 32's are within 3" they're fine. That buys you another 1.25".
2, You can still have your tankbustas in a trukk to start of the game. Seeing as the strat doesn't count as embarking, they can dismebark the trukk and jump on the battlewagon.

Again, it's a niche case but you're only paying 1CP to gain access to it. Using a trukk to soak up overwatch/ block movement/ take objectives means that it's not a big loss to change its original purpose. I've never used this strategy myself so I obviously can't vouch for it but there have been several times where someone moved up their Gallant/Lancer/Paladin/Errant within distance where this combo could go off.

Would it be massively improved if the suggestions you had for changes were implemented? Yes. But this gives you back some flexibility if someone blasts your trukk full of tankbustas T1 (obviously place that trukk somewhere where they can dismebark out of LoS if possible). So if your running a full unit of trukkbustas/2 smaller ones it might be worth looking into seeing as those guys are not CP dependant generally


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 13:46:57


Post by: koooaei


Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 14:24:07


Post by: mhalko1


Okay I know this should be in ymdc but while we are discussing showin off and the souped up shokka. How does that work? Do you reroll strength or Is the strength set. Since a new target could be chosen I would assume strength has to be rerolled. I think I may have just answered my question but it doesn't hurt to back it up.

I would also consider showin off after more dakka on the Relic SaG. That way you can double your amount of auto hits/ extra DDD shots.



Edit: While we get into ITC and mission variance. I am not a fan of the ITC missions as they can help those armies that excel at spamming the strongest options in an army. I have been playing the new CA2018 missions and man have they made for some fun games. Much more so than the original Eternal war missions. Capping VP at the end of every BR or even at the end of each turn makes for more fluffy lists and I believe actually helps with our army. Plus in a few games both ways one player was going to be tabled but by turn 5 you had to hope that you had enough VP or the game continues because tabling didn't end the game. Some of the missions conditions in ITC just don't favor Orks has highly as other armies.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 15:27:26


Post by: tneva82


Random stats for attacks are rolled each time you make attack. Ergo shoot twice, both shots and s are rolled again.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 15:42:40


Post by: Jidmah


tneva82 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first.


What kind of terrain people are playing where you can't hide even one unit?

Here people can hide knight for that matter. One battlewagon goes into hiding easily.



Hiding the battlewagon means it's not deployed at the edge of your deployment zone and/or it needs to go around terrain making the tactic even more useless.

I also was referring to the tank bustas which can be shot at and die from any number of LOS ignoring weapons, plus helverines can usually move around the terrain blocking LOS and gun them down.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 16:03:59


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first.


What kind of terrain people are playing where you can't hide even one unit?

Here people can hide knight for that matter. One battlewagon goes into hiding easily.



Hiding the battlewagon means it's not deployed at the edge of your deployment zone and/or it needs to go around terrain making the tactic even more useless.

I also was referring to the tank bustas which can be shot at and die from any number of LOS ignoring weapons, plus helverines can usually move around the terrain blocking LOS and gun them down.


right!

motors, earthshaker cannons, smart missile systems and anythign else that can blind fire will be prioritizing tank bustas our of a vehicle.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 16:07:06


Post by: Vineheart01


Tankbustas are such a lethal unit that i wouldnt even blame people burning bigger, overkilling weapons on them to finish them off.
I have never had them survive out of a transport even half a shooting phase. Even when my KFF on bike happened to be nearby lol


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 16:23:32


Post by: Jidmah


PiñaColada wrote:
While I do mostly agree with your sentiment, there are a couple of things to consider.

1, You need to disembark with every model within 3", not wholly within. Meaning if the tip of each of those 32's are within 3" they're fine. That buys you another 1.25".

Tank bustas are on 25mm bases, so you don't even get an additional inch from that, plus it only applies to the first row, which is 4-5 models.

2, You can still have your tankbustas in a trukk to start of the game. Seeing as the strat doesn't count as embarking, they can dismebark the trukk and jump on the battlewagon.

Why wouldn't you just drive the trukk down the field? You are basically spending three CP to gain less than 4 inches and expose your tank bustas to anti-infantry fire.

Again, it's a niche case but you're only paying 1CP to gain access to it. Using a trukk to soak up overwatch/ block movement/ take objectives means that it's not a big loss to change its original purpose. I've never used this strategy myself so I obviously can't vouch for it

The only reason why I actually bothered to write the analysis myself is because I have tried to make the blitz brigade work multiple times as I've been running battle wagon bash lists since I started playing orks. Even without lootas, you have no trouble burning through a brigade worth of CP by turn 2, so every single one is valuable. We have so many great stratagems, why should I waste my CP on something so situational? You also need a battlewagon with some stuff inside plus ten tank bustas plus a trukk which is a lot of points dedicated to killing just half a knight if it decides to rotate ion shield or has the 2+ armor relic.

but there have been several times where someone moved up their Gallant/Lancer/Paladin/Errant within distance where this combo could go off.

If you are running any kind of battlewagons, you are running at least one bonebreaker, if not more. You should also be running a warboss on a bike and/or a wartrike and maybe some other stuff. If a knight moves up the field to meet your army, you have not shortage of stuff that can assault it first turn and quite possibly smash it to smithereens if you invest some CP for ramming speed, fighting again or for the warboss to jump back up.

Would it be massively improved if the suggestions you had for changes were implemented? Yes. But this gives you back some flexibility if someone blasts your trukk full of tankbustas T1 (obviously place that trukk somewhere where they can dismebark out of LoS if possible). So if your running a full unit of trukkbustas/2 smaller ones it might be worth looking into seeing as those guys are not CP dependant generally

You need to have a battlewagon in the first place and it needs to be alive to do this. You need to pay 1 CP upfront to do it, even if you never need it or your BW dies turn 1. You are pretty limited in what units you can move and where you can move them because that battlewagon and its passengers will be stuck there as well.
That's just too many IFs to spend a CP in case you might actually gain something from it. Even if you do, I highly doubt that those 3 CP couldn't have been used better.

If there were no costs attached to the stratagem and you could just pop it whenever the situation comes up that would be awesome. But as it is you need to make a huge investment with a big chance of getting absolutely nothing in return.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 16:25:54


Post by: PiñaColada


Oh, that's for sure going to happen if your opponent has any weapons not requiring LoS. But the blitz brigade, such as any specialist detachment, is a stratagem to unlock. That surely means you get to choose after you've seen your opponents army, no?

Meaning you don't unlock it if the enemy has plenty of supersonic fliers or other weapons that threaten tankbustas outside of LoS.

My point being, that detachment is still not good. But in some cases it might not be a bad idea to unlock it, just in case. It just depends on who you're facing and what your own army composition is

Edit: But I'll defer to your knowledge. If you've tried the detachment and can't make it work, then I can see why that would be that case. It's just a shame that we got 4 detachments and the only good thing we really got was a relic from one of them


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 20:07:36


Post by: tneva82


 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.


It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 20:16:31


Post by: flandarz


How about Freebooterz? I feel like a +1 to hit might be better than rerolls. If you can proc the +1, that's your SAG hitting on 4s, and the Dakkax3 additional shots will also hit on 4s.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 20:29:21


Post by: mhalko1


tneva82 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.


It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.


Rerolling a wound and damage roll is where he shines especially with the +1 to wound against vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.


It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.


Rerolling a wound and damage roll is where he shines especially with the +1 to wound against vehicles. Plus the DS reroll to hit works on 2s, 3s, 4s whereas if you are badmoons and those come up you are screwed.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 20:55:51


Post by: tneva82


 flandarz wrote:
How about Freebooterz? I feel like a +1 to hit might be better than rerolls. If you can proc the +1, that's your SAG hitting on 4s, and the Dakkax3 additional shots will also hit on 4s.


Good idea.

BTW added for fun ability to calculate average wounds caused all together. Against knight I'm getting:

bad moons: average damage(after 5++ and including mortals) 7,78
death skulls: 9.85
Freeboota: 9.3-9.5.

So the difference isn't going to be earth shattering particularly between death skulls and freeboota. Bad moon is bit less but of course HQ for loota detachment has value of it's own.

Could have made coding error of course. This was quick python code so don't sue me if they are wrong

I'll add bit more ease to switch things around to try vs different things but now back to painting evil suns.

Added fun(can't resist!). Checked how many times he one shots. From 10,000 attempts 880 times is where result generally floats around. (btw realized one mistake in code. If it causes more than 24 damage it still counts that for average damage total...)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 21:17:01


Post by: Vineheart01


translation the bigger difference is the rest of your army not the supa-sag itself taking the right kulture.

Which is fine by me, i prefer my yellow boyz. Slightly annoyed that my chosen color scheme ended up being pure shooty but really it only hampers footnobz and meganobz to a noticable level for me.
(always thought Bad Moonz would get some ap reduction modifier given they have all this extra bling on their armor)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 21:47:24


Post by: flandarz


Honestly, a 1/12 chance to one-shot a Knight isn't bad at all.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 21:56:35


Post by: tneva82


 Vineheart01 wrote:
translation the bigger difference is the rest of your army not the supa-sag itself taking the right kulture.

Which is fine by me, i prefer my yellow boyz. Slightly annoyed that my chosen color scheme ended up being pure shooty but really it only hampers footnobz and meganobz to a noticable level for me.
(always thought Bad Moonz would get some ap reduction modifier given they have all this extra bling on their armor)


True. Difference isn't going to be huge. Next Q of course would be standard deviations but that's beyond me(not even idea how to do that!).

I feel bad for any bad moon fan who had slugga+choppa boyz. Those got screwed there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flandarz wrote:
Honestly, a 1/12 chance to one-shot a Knight isn't bad at all.


Certainly % opponent has to take into consideration. 1/12 times 5++ knight getting nuked isn't that bad at all. And even when not it averages to hefty damage.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 22:00:09


Post by: flandarz


Yeah. I would have expected Deathskullz to get a -1 to hit Strategem or something, and for Badmoonz to get the 6++, but *shrug*.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 22:07:49


Post by: Vineheart01


iirc Blue is Lucky was a thing in the past where it gave a 6++, like way in the past.

Thus their invul is literally a "lucky dat missed!" basically lol

None of my slugga/choppa boyz were painted fortunately but i had a handful of MANz/bigchoppa nobz that were. That bugged me mildly.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 22:08:51


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I don't feel that 1/12 is the correct stats, but regardless, what's the chances of a 4++ or a 3++ getting one shot?

I saw someone else do them in another thread (think it was Scotsman) and it came out in the millions.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 22:32:39


Post by: tneva82


Hard to believe on millions. 2d6 shots, 2d6 S with +1 to wound, d6 damage, potential for d3 mortal wounds...Hard to see how I could make that big mistake but around 2%

Generally one shots happened with 10+ S11+ shots.

T7 vs T8 was surprisingly small difference. Less surprisingly bump to average output wasn't that big when rerolling 1-3 vs 1-2. Average damage goes up but not much. Bigger jump goes from rerolling just 1's to rerolling 1's and 2's for damage so that would be sweet spot without extra considerations.

BTW! In case of damage rolls are you supposed to roll damage one at a time and decide whether to reroll or not then? That would a) be slower b) less effective than say roll your 4d6 damage and decide reroll after that.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 22:42:37


Post by: flandarz


I also think millions is too high, considering there's a 1/324 chance of getting 11+ shots with 11+ strength, which (before you even have to worry about Wounding or Saves) is an average of 6ish MWs.

Edit: forgot to account for BS. And bad math.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 22:53:14


Post by: PiñaColada


I have no idea what the odds would end up being, but assuming that you're firing at an IK with a 3++ and the IK player rerolls a failed save, I'm guessing it's pretty damn unlikely.

However, you can still fire twice and even though you might be burning CP on this move you should still have 1900 points left in your army that hopefully starts chipping in

Edit: And if you're getting a ton of MW through then the IK player will most likely play "Benevolence of the machine god" for that 5+ FnP against them


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 23:00:02


Post by: tneva82


Anyway think I'll be fielding this SAG fellow bit more Yesterday's results certainly were over the average so nice to see in practice how much it in practice does. Does seem still bit of go big or go home weapon though relic + warlord trait makes it bit less of a black and white model.

Quick check on W12 model, T7 no invulnerable save and one shotting about half the time with average 8 wounds(modified a bit so if it causes more than 12 I put damage at 12 to keep average damage not go up)

T8 on that makes surprisingly little effect O_o Well +1 to wound probably evens that and there's not that many results where to wound affects.

This might be for a change tool that can actually worry repulsor. I always struggle that one. Very tough to shoot and -2 to charge just sucks making da killa klaw boss less efficient. Hard to reach close on foot and da jump requires that 10"+ for charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote:
I have no idea what the odds would end up being, but assuming that you're firing at an IK with a 3++ and the IK player rerolls a failed save, I'm guessing it's pretty damn unlikely.

However, you can still fire twice and even though you might be burning CP on this move you should still have 1900 points left in your army that hopefully starts chipping in

Edit: And if you're getting a ton of MW through then the IK player will most likely play "Benevolence of the machine god" for that 5+ FnP against them


True that strategem I didn't take into account so that affects things certainly. Forgot that one as I have never used it so forgot there is one. I'll add that part later to it. Of course that 3++ isn't going to be quarantee either. I would not be starting with this one generally so if he triggers RIS against previous guns I can easily switch to some 5++ target instead(take that) or if not I'll be shooting at damaged which helps a bit to compensate for inv save.

One reroll for knights also needs to be added. Though keep in mind those one shots are generally when the SAG scores big pile of hits so multiple failures will happen. But yeah another improvement needed certainly.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/20 23:47:21


Post by: flandarz


Yeah, I would back him with some Smashaz. Use the Smashaz first, and wait to see who he drops the RIS on. Plus: your SAG can repair any Smashaz that don't get destroyed and/or Loot them to improve it's own Save.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 06:27:32


Post by: koooaei


tneva82 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.


It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.


I'm looking at it from another perspective. Deffskullz make your mediocre rolls play out better in the end. While bad moons make sure when you get 10+ shots, they will be more devastating. And enemies will remember those times you one-shot a repulsor or brought a knight down to 10 wounds in one go. And it will affect the way they play vs sag mek.

I think, the utility of a 84 pts boogeyman is higher than that of a more reliable, yet less memorable one.

Though, it still mostly depends on the rest of the list. If you're running loota bomb alongside your sag mek, it's got to be bad moonz. If you're running msu stuff in trukks, deffskullz it is.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 06:40:55


Post by: tneva82


 koooaei wrote:

I'm looking at it from another perspective. Deffskullz make your mediocre rolls play out better in the end. While bad moons make sure when you get 10+ shots, they will be more devastating. And enemies will remember those times you one-shot a repulsor or brought a knight down to 10 wounds in one go. And it will affect the way they play vs sag mek.

I think, the utility of a 84 pts boogeyman is higher than that of a more reliable, yet less memorable one.

Though, it still mostly depends on the rest of the list. If you're running loota bomb alongside your sag mek, it's got to be bad moonz. If you're running msu stuff in trukks, deffskullz it is.


Well. Is one shotting 24 wound knight with 5+ and 5+ FNP vs mortals devastating? If so unless there's serious error looks like deathskull does that for lot more often bad moon.

Against 3++ 5+++ vs mortal castellan both are about same though at 0.6% chance of one shotting. But regular knight, FNP vs mortal or not, deathskull is one shotting significantly more. Average damage also better. 7.7 vs 6.2 or more than 16% difference.

So if you want to be scaring opponent by one shotting knights take the death skull SAG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW on another note all indexes except for imperium 2(with sisters of silence etc that need it for rules) are now out of sale. No big deal except tournaments might start banning index in future as players can't even buy those any more.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 07:15:33


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Yea be aware that GW is no longer selling indexes in any country apart from the UK.

If the indexes are banned (they aren't yet) I guess we'll all need to seriously consider our strategy?

No more kills klaw bike bosses or off big meks.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 07:21:59


Post by: koooaei


Yeah, will have to go for foot boss, i guess. Not nearly as good as biker boss but whelp. Boss is no longer the star. Sag mek is. Who could have thought...


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 09:48:32


Post by: PiñaColada


If the index options are phased out soon (I personally think that's going to happen in CA2019) Orks might start to have an HQ problem for a lot of people. I'm not really affected by that myself but the biggest thing I'm annoyed by is the lack of kustom shootas on nobz. What is the nob in a shoota boy squad supposed to take? Kombi-weapons? Slugga+big choppa? Both are fine options but the obvious choice IMO is the kustom shoota.

Unrelated to my kustom shoota complaint, I'm sort of hoping we get a new character in a KT expansion, like the manipulus for Admech. Those can seemingly come out of nowhere and if Index goes in the near future our HQ selection is actually pretty sparse (though to be fair, nowhere near as bad as Admech was/still is)

tneva82 wrote:
Against 3++ 5+++ vs mortal castellan both are about same though at 0.6% chance of one shotting. But regular knight, FNP vs mortal or not, deathskull is one shotting significantly more. Average damage also better. 7.7 vs 6.2 or more than 16% difference.

So if you want to be scaring opponent by one shotting knights take the death skull SAG.

That's not counting on the player rerolling 1 failed armor save, or is it? I just have a morbid curiousity as to what the odds are in the worst case scenario Assuming you haven't moved of course, because then you might employ more dakka to counteract that.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 10:09:57


Post by: Jidmah


If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 12:09:11


Post by: Waaaghbert


I never understood, why they cancelled the old BigMek with KFF. It was one of the most characterfull miniatures in the ork line and provided us with a cheap but usefull HQ.

If they start banning index-units, I think our last hope is a Killteam-Character release, like PinaColada suggested.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 12:52:48


Post by: G00fySmiley


Jidmah wrote:If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.


I doubt they will be gone in 8th edition, but when we move to 9th I do not expect them to be included. I am planning if that happens to buy the Necromunda Ambot pack. convert one into a big mek with kff so he looks more origional and then turning one into a mega armored warboss who will have to be run as a counts as normal warboss since mega armor bosses will be gone by then. though why are you saying Thrakka can no longer be used?

Vineheart01 wrote:translation the bigger difference is the rest of your army not the supa-sag itself taking the right kulture.

Which is fine by me, i prefer my yellow boyz. Slightly annoyed that my chosen color scheme ended up being pure shooty but really it only hampers footnobz and meganobz to a noticable level for me.
(always thought Bad Moonz would get some ap reduction modifier given they have all this extra bling on their armor)


Most players will have no idea what yellow orks are. I would just run them however you want to. Personally I never thought my orks should match so my army while sharing the same overall look same metalic paints used on weapons, same red and browns on leather parts of the armor etc. the colors on armor pieces, vehicles etc. is a hodge podge. No two of the same vehicle type have the same colors. I have a yellow, blue, black, red, gray and silver battlewagons, looted battlewagons made from landraiders are all different space marine chapters in their paint job too, ditto looted Necron and Eldar vehicles.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 13:45:56


Post by: flandarz


The loss of a cheap KFF would hit harder than the Biker Boss. The latter is, fortunately, only slightly better than the Wartrike and Zhad. And you could always proxy your Biker Bosses as Trikes, if you gotta. Doubt anyone is gonna give you a hassle over it.

All that said, with snipers seeming to be on the rise, I dunno how much longer the KFF Mek would have been viable anyway.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 15:34:19


Post by: mhalko1


They aren't going to invalidate the Indexes. They are just starting to stop selling them. CA 1 isnt invalidated even thought they are out of stock and CA 2018 came out.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 21:06:09


Post by: tneva82


PiñaColada wrote:

That's not counting on the player rerolling 1 failed armor save, or is it? I just have a morbid curiousity as to what the odds are in the worst case scenario Assuming you haven't moved of course, because then you might employ more dakka to counteract that.


Assuming you are refering to command reroll that was factored in on my simulator along with the FNP to see how well castellan is protected. Too well. Guess I will try to bait RIS and then shoot crusader or something.

In another topic there's weird tournament next month. Not sure do I go there as it's easter holiday so would like to spend with family(4 days holiday is nice) but it has unusual tournament restrictions. Basically 2k, single codex, no duplicate detachments, max 3 of any individual slots. Yes even troops...Obviously this kills brigades are illegal with this as can't take 6 troops. Max 1 LOW as well. FW allowed. Index unusually for here seems to be allowed though checking it. Oh and max 1 of each data slate except for troops/dedicated transports O_o. This is giving me headache actually.

edit: flowchart banned as usual here

Intended as casual tournament btw.

Wonder what kind of list would be good here. Multiple grot units are obviously not going to be good. Seeing I just got them and am going to paint I guess I would be using death skull shockjumps(3) and scrapjets(3). Typical move for me to take new units to next tournament ;-)

Is this ruleset good or bad for orks in your opinion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.


Issue with index being allowed in tournaments is players are now in 2 classes. Those who got index and those who have to find those on ebay for potentially expensive. Element of pay to win added to the mix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote:
They aren't going to invalidate the Indexes. They are just starting to stop selling them. CA 1 isnt invalidated even thought they are out of stock and CA 2018 came out.


CA1 contents in matched play are in CA2 though. And GW generally takes dim view on supporting stuff they don't sell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay made army list for that weirdo tournament. That max 1 dataslate REALLY made things difficult. I tried to cram stuff I'm painting right now.

Battallion: Evil suns

warboss: da killa klaw
weirdboy: da jump
3x30 boyz(big choppa nob each)

Outride: deathskull

big mek w/relic SAW, +1 to wound vs vehicle/monster WLT
3xscrapjet
3xshockump
dethkopta w/rokkit(I found few bodies so would need to get propels)

Spearhead: deathskull

Badruk(ran out of deathskull HQ's since can't take warboss or weirdboy...)

deffdread w/2xkustom mega blasta
killa kan w/rokkit(just to get 3rd HS slot...)
3xsmasha gun+traktor kannon

Filling FA and HS with max 1 dataslate of each was...tricky!

Just 8 CP or 9 if I drop one of the relics. Can't be deep striking much so just 1 mob will be going there likely. Rest da jumped one after another.

Weird tournament rules. But plenty tournaments here each with varying rules. There are more normal competive tournaments and more casual with unusual varying rules so everybody gets something to their taste.

EDIT: ILLEGAL! 4 HQ in the list...


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 21:39:14


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I'm hopeful/dreaming that if/when GW invalidate the indexes it's because they are due to release updated models of those that we lost.

A new Ghazzy/Megaboss could be feasible I reckon. Probably not any time soon but you never know.

A KFF Mek isn't outside the realms of possibility either IMO.

Biker characters are less likely I reckon. The Deffkilla is supposed to be our replacement for the boss on Bike and I don't think GW wants to allow us to put all of our characters on bikes.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 21:42:15


Post by: Grimskul


Well, if Orks get a release like the CSM do whenever they get back to Octarius/Armageddon, it's very possible for them to release multiple HQ's alongside Ghazzy like they've done for Abby and his crew so far. Ideally alongside plastic tankbustas/kommandos/deffkoptas to round off the remaining resin/metal kits we have in our range.

However, I do agree with An Actual Englishman that we probably will only be getting guys on foot. Judging from the releases from CSM so far, only big centerpiece HQ models can be on mounts, otherwise everybody else is on foot.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 21:54:36


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Grimskul wrote:
Well, if Orks get a release like the CSM do whenever they get back to Octarius/Armageddon, it's very possible for them to release multiple HQ's alongside Ghazzy like they've done for Abby and his crew so far. Ideally alongside plastic tankbustas/kommandos/deffkoptas to round off the remaining resin/metal kits we have in our range.

However, I do agree with An Actual Englishman that we probably will only be getting guys on foot. Judging from the releases from CSM so far, only big centerpiece HQ models can be on mounts, otherwise everybody else is on foot.


As much as I'd love it, I doubt we'll get as big a release as CSM. We aren't the chosen villains of this story and we've just had 6 Buggies that, despite their awful rules, are beautiful models, so GW will figure we've had enough for the time being. I would love to be wrong though.

If we did get a decent sized release I completely agree that new Tankbustas, Kommandos and Deffkoptas are possible, as well as new Boyz IMO. They're great but too small given the new scale for me.

I've made a poll asking what new units we'd like to see on various Ork groups on facebook and the results were interesting, a new Ghazzy/Megaboss was top in all of them, closely followed by new Bike characters, then Weirdboy next, Tankbustas, Kommandos then Deffkopta followed by Boyz. Only one person voted that the range was perfect and required no new additions. I'm going to send the data to GW once they open their "community survey". Doubt it'll have an impact but you never know.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 21:59:12


Post by: Vineheart01


Considering the only plastic HQ we have is SAG mek and Wartrike (technically Wurldkilla too but he's a killteam character that for some reason isnt legal in normal play?), new boss/mek boxes are a must. I can live without bike variants but those would be nice too.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/21 22:40:55


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I think the "Wurldkilla"/Grukk model can be used in 40k proper. He's just an alternative PK Warboss sculpt.

Including the Deffkilla (that isn't listed under HQ on the GW website) we have 4 plastic HQs - Deffkilla, Grukk, SAG and Mega Mek.

We have 6 resin HQs - Ghazzy, Weirdboy, Badrukk, Zagstruk, Snikrot and Mad Dok (isn't he Elite?).

We have 1 metal HQ - Warboss with Big Choppa.

Madness we have so many old kits in such a key role.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 00:32:33


Post by: Grimskul


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think the "Wurldkilla"/Grukk model can be used in 40k proper. He's just an alternative PK Warboss sculpt.

Including the Deffkilla (that isn't listed under HQ on the GW website) we have 4 plastic HQs - Deffkilla, Grukk, SAG and Mega Mek.

We have 6 resin HQs - Ghazzy, Weirdboy, Badrukk, Zagstruk, Snikrot and Mad Dok (isn't he Elite?).

We have 1 metal HQ - Warboss with Big Choppa.

Madness we have so many old kits in such a key role.


I think part of the reason why is because GW was very willing to rest on their laurels with AoBR being on sale for so long and on the market that pretty much everyone had the Black Reach Warboss. Which people then either converted into mega-armour or otherwise. Which is weird because with 3rd party guys like Kromlech and Anvil Industries you can see there's a significant market for alternative Ork HQ's but GW refuses to capitalize on it. Such is the fate of a xenos faction I suppose.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 02:23:00


Post by: Vineheart01


Forgot the MAMek technically counts even though its part of the MANz box not its own thing. Then again does anybody even use him? I cant justify his massive pricetag coupled with how slow he is and 2transport slots...

Mad Dok is elite this time around...for...reasons....i actually thought they removed him at first because he wasnt in HQ. Only other proper named character i can think of that isnt an HQ is either a Knight or is Longstrike, which was originally a unique upgrade to Hammerheads anyway.
I mean, not only are people after non-resin bosses but they also dont want repeat sculps, they want their bosses to look unique. I have 2 AOBR bosses technically but one is converted with some Flashgitz parts to be Badrukk instead, my other proper boss is a Black Orc conversion lol


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 11:27:31


Post by: Jidmah


tneva82 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
If indexes are phased out I will no longer be able to field two battalions due to the lack of models. All I have left is one warboss, one weird boy and one SAG since my bike HQs, Thrakka and my KFF meks can no longer be used.

So I just hope that GW won't do something idiotic as officially axing index models for matched play.


Issue with index being allowed in tournaments is players are now in 2 classes. Those who got index and those who have to find those on ebay for potentially expensive. Element of pay to win added to the mix.


Oh, I have no issue with tournaments banning indexes or FW. It's not like I'm running orks at competitive events anyways. But in casual gaming the reality is that any datasheet with just a PL value without points might as well not exist. If GW releases a CA which removes point values from index units and BattleScribe follows suit - might as well set those miniatures on fire right then.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 12:51:57


Post by: PiñaColada


Keeps us updated on how that list turns out Tneva, those restrictions are insane (but quite possibly fun)!

In regards to the whole HQ thing, if we only got 1 new model I'd probably want Ghaz. I wouldn't even use him myself but I'm a bit bothered by having old centerpiece models and the arrival of a prime Ghaz would probably move the ork storyline forward a bit (probably on Armageddon). I don't think he could be in a dual kit with a MA warboss though, since I assume a prime ghaz would be 14-16 wounds (the beast is described as 10meters tall and even if Ghaz porbably won't quite reach that level it seems silly a normal warboss could be even close to that size).

A MA warboss is missed though since it's so much more useful than a MA big mek. Both mounted HQ's and a new normal big mek with a KFF would be great but I personally doubt they're coming. If they release a new big mek model I hope he comes with a KFF but can also choose other weird ork weaponry, like a mini-pulsa rokkit.

So in my personal order of want:
Ghaz
MA warboss
Normal multi-part warboss (actual options for big choppa etc)
Normal multi-part big mek
Unlikely bonus round:
Mounted character kit

I guess a new weirdboy should be added but it's so easy just to use the AoS guys that I can't be bothered. They're great models.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 13:27:01


Post by: Vineheart01


Yeah the AoS weridnob is awesome, i have 2 lol.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 13:34:51


Post by: flandarz


I'd like to see a Grot HQ or Elite. Some sniper git.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 14:01:00


Post by: PiñaColada


 flandarz wrote:
I'd like to see a Grot HQ or Elite. Some sniper git.

Scratch my entire post. This is priority nr.1

No but seriously, I'd love a bit of grot focus. I've already sent a mail to GW pleading them to give us 40k rules for some of the gloomspite gitz, like they did with tzaangor enlightened, shaman & the mutalith vortex beast


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 14:24:47


Post by: Vineheart01


i could see that being a CA 2019 "build a character" thing, i.e. PL only.....
Which would be immensely irritating. Hate it when GW tries to push Open play when nobody gives a crap. I'd love to kitbash some battlefortresses but its PL only so.....


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 14:50:18


Post by: flandarz


Yeah, I'm not holding out hope, but our lack of snipers is gonna hurt us in the near future.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 14:52:32


Post by: G00fySmiley


I actually prefer powel level to points. you actually see units with proper equipment. no more loyal 32 with only a few handfuls of mortors and lasgun shots. or bolter tac squads. The sarg will have a proper melee weapon and possible pistol melta or plasma and the squad will have a special/heavy weapon. it jsut seems so stupid that the squads are choosing to go into battle geared fairly uselessly. or in the case of orks we just take not big shootas or rokkits unless we have a few points to spare usually.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 15:06:03


Post by: Vineheart01


PL would be fine if it was balanced right.
Its main issue is its the "medium cost" of what that unit can do, not the max since everyones gonna use the max. Or atleast thats how it feels like because so many units have an unusually low PL for what they are while others are abnormally high for what they do. Still no idea why Ironstriders for Admech are PL4 at 60pts, but Dragoons are PL3 at...68pts...wat? Theyre literally "this one is shooty this one is melee' of the same model.

Very noticable on things that can take a BIG gun or opt for a lesser, cost effective gun so they can bring more bodies.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 18:16:58


Post by: Grimskul


 Vineheart01 wrote:
PL would be fine if it was balanced right.
Its main issue is its the "medium cost" of what that unit can do, not the max since everyones gonna use the max. Or atleast thats how it feels like because so many units have an unusually low PL for what they are while others are abnormally high for what they do. Still no idea why Ironstriders for Admech are PL4 at 60pts, but Dragoons are PL3 at...68pts...wat? Theyre literally "this one is shooty this one is melee' of the same model.

Very noticable on things that can take a BIG gun or opt for a lesser, cost effective gun so they can bring more bodies.


Yeah, its very all or nothing and it hurts armies with little to no upgrade options like Necrons, who pay a premium in PL for no way to leverage it at all. I think it's best for early pick-up games with people new to the game and if its WSYWIG, otherwise you can power-game the absolute hell out of it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 19:40:42


Post by: mhalko1


I am still 100% sure they have the new Ghaz model ready for release. There were the rumors we were getting one prior to our codex. Them deciding not to release him in the book doesn't mean the sculpt isn't ready and that we won't get him. How far back were the primarch rumors, and before that there was a leak of the new Lord or change models which did end up getting released. The problem is that the people who see the pipeline and leak it just see inventory and not the timeline.

With this in mind again pretty sure new Ghaz exists and that they waited so that they can sell us another new book with units and rules.......


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 20:04:59


Post by: An Actual Englishman


mhalko1 wrote:
I am still 100% sure they have the new Ghaz model ready for release. There were the rumors we were getting one prior to our codex. Them deciding not to release him in the book doesn't mean the sculpt isn't ready and that we won't get him. How far back were the primarch rumors, and before that there was a leak of the new Lord or change models which did end up getting released. The problem is that the people who see the pipeline and leak it just see inventory and not the timeline.

With this in mind again pretty sure new Ghaz exists and that they waited so that they can sell us another new book with units and rules.......

Sell me this dream!

We'll get a new Ghazz eventually. Whether it's in 5 months or 5 years is up for contention.

A Sisters vs Orks battlebox would be pretty sweet, but that won't have a new Ghazz anyway.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 20:05:56


Post by: PiñaColada


I think it all depends on how Vigilus turns out. They say Vigilus Ablaze is book 2/2 but unless the planet is destroyed they could easily go back in a "new" campaign. If the next campaign is Armageddon then both Angron and Ghaz are likely candidates. Ghaz probably being even more likely to be updated due to the whole Armageddon is really Ullanor thing.

Is it possible the model already exists? Sure, but at least from what I remember it wasn't one of the noted trustworthy sources that spread the rumour of a new Ghaz. Hastings said there would be a new Guilliman, Mortarion, Abaddon & Russ so I think it's pretty likely Russ is next.

Considering Ghaz would probably be a Prime Ork, the codex leans into that since he now exists in several places at once, he would basically be a primarch relase. So assuming Russ is next we should really hope for him dropping soon since I can't imagine GW dropping these centerpiece leaders too close to each other.

Me personally, I think Chaos wins at Vigilus and things are looking bleak for the Imperium for a while. Then, around Christmas the "wolf time" arrives and Russ saves the day (the whole space viking works better during winter). So maybe we get an Armageddon campaign summer 2020?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 20:20:07


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I don't feel that Ghazzy is going to go back to Armageddon.

There was a passage on the Snikrot page in our codex that implied that Ghazzy was no longer interested in Armageddon and that Snikrot was going to take it for himself. I don't know why but it stuck out to me.

It also concerns me that Ghazzy is all over the place at the same time, it gives him a distinct lack of focus and the same lack of focus for a release. If he was still at Octarius we could expect a release with Nids. If he was still at Armageddon we could expect a release with World Eaters. As it stands he's nowhere important as far as I can tell? All the places he's traveled to feel kind of "meh".


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 20:25:11


Post by: Vineheart01


i just hope when we do get a new ghazzy model he has all new rules and such too.
Right now he's literally "Warboss in MA + 1 Attack aura) which, while cool, is sorta lame. Not to mention i personally find it REALLY FREAKING HARD to get characters in the same combat as boyz when both had to charge the same turn.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 20:32:05


Post by: mhalko1


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't feel that Ghazzy is going to go back to Armageddon.

There was a passage on the Snikrot page in our codex that implied that Ghazzy was no longer interested in Armageddon and that Snikrot was going to take it for himself. I don't know why but it stuck out to me.

It also concerns me that Ghazzy is all over the place at the same time, it gives him a distinct lack of focus and the same lack of focus for a release. If he was still at Octarius we could expect a release with Nids. If he was still at Armageddon we could expect a release with World Eaters. As it stands he's nowhere important as far as I can tell? All the places he's traveled to feel kind of "meh".


To me the constant fighting on Octarius against the nids would be the Ideal conditions for him to reach Primorck size. I know this has started to derail the thread so I won't really go more into it but having that release would make the Warboss in MA model valid and give one additional step toward not needing an index.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 20:35:19


Post by: PiñaColada


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't feel that Ghazzy is going to go back to Armageddon.

There was a passage on the Snikrot page in our codex that implied that Ghazzy was no longer interested in Armageddon and that Snikrot was going to take it for himself. I don't know why but it stuck out to me.

It also concerns me that Ghazzy is all over the place at the same time, it gives him a distinct lack of focus and the same lack of focus for a release. If he was still at Octarius we could expect a release with Nids. If he was still at Armageddon we could expect a release with World Eaters. As it stands he's nowhere important as far as I can tell? All the places he's traveled to feel kind of "meh".

Hmm, I missed that. The whole exists in many places at once is a precursor to being a prime ork so even though he's physically nowhere interesting right now it does bring him to an interesting place, lore wise. As I wrote in a previous post, the beast was 10 meters tall and he went toe to toe with Vulkan who was the largest primarch before daemonic gifts came into play (oh, and also immortal). Make Ghaz a huge, 16/18 wound model that's literally the most scary model in CC in all of 40k (and also smart since he'd be a prime ork) and I might buy the model just to have. It would also force GW to give Orks a real win or two and at least temporarily a real focus in the storyline.

Even if Ghaz probably won't be as big & scary as the beast, the guy who almost took Terra, a prime Ghaz should still be a bigger terror than most CSM legions.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 21:40:35


Post by: An Actual Englishman


PiñaColada wrote:
Hmm, I missed that. The whole exists in many places at once is a precursor to being a prime ork so even though he's physically nowhere interesting right now it does bring him to an interesting place, lore wise. As I wrote in a previous post, the beast was 10 meters tall and he went toe to toe with Vulkan who was the largest primarch before daemonic gifts came into play (oh, and also immortal). Make Ghaz a huge, 16/18 wound model that's literally the most scary model in CC in all of 40k (and also smart since he'd be a prime ork) and I might buy the model just to have. It would also force GW to give Orks a real win or two and at least temporarily a real focus in the storyline.

Even if Ghaz probably won't be as big & scary as the beast, the guy who almost took Terra, a prime Ghaz should still be a bigger terror than most CSM legions.

Ah I'd buy any new Ork model. Just to support Orks if nothing else. Give GW the financial incentives to continue making Ork models as best I can. A Ghaz model as you've described would be incredible though I don't think it's likely as GW are focusing only on Chaos vs Imperium and us Xenos are like the poor relations. Look at the treatment in Vigilus 2. Our faction is now a warzone or something? Is that it? Is that all there is? Lame IMO. And it's the last book so it'll finish the story.

Either way we have gone off topic I fear, back to tactics *ahem*. How about those *grabs random unit* Tankbustas guys!? They any good?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/22 22:40:56


Post by: Grimskul


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
Hmm, I missed that. The whole exists in many places at once is a precursor to being a prime ork so even though he's physically nowhere interesting right now it does bring him to an interesting place, lore wise. As I wrote in a previous post, the beast was 10 meters tall and he went toe to toe with Vulkan who was the largest primarch before daemonic gifts came into play (oh, and also immortal). Make Ghaz a huge, 16/18 wound model that's literally the most scary model in CC in all of 40k (and also smart since he'd be a prime ork) and I might buy the model just to have. It would also force GW to give Orks a real win or two and at least temporarily a real focus in the storyline.

Even if Ghaz probably won't be as big & scary as the beast, the guy who almost took Terra, a prime Ghaz should still be a bigger terror than most CSM legions.

Ah I'd buy any new Ork model. Just to support Orks if nothing else. Give GW the financial incentives to continue making Ork models as best I can. A Ghaz model as you've described would be incredible though I don't think it's likely as GW are focusing only on Chaos vs Imperium and us Xenos are like the poor relations. Look at the treatment in Vigilus 2. Our faction is now a warzone or something? Is that it? Is that all there is? Lame IMO. And it's the last book so it'll finish the story.

Either way we have gone off topic I fear, back to tactics *ahem*. How about those *grabs random unit* Tankbustas guys!? They any good?


Yeah, even though I understand Chaos is being redesigned to be more of a presence as the "big bad" of the setting, it still seems anticlimatic to use xenos like Orks and Genestealers to be the backdrop before they arrive. If anything I'd love to see Orks be one of the reasons why Chaos can't fully screw over Vigilus in one go, as one of the wild card factions that undermines carefully thought through battle plans like a wrench in the works. It'd be hilarious if they pull a Storm of Chaos 2.0 where Abbadon and Calgar have their fated duel and an Ork Warlord pops in like Grimgor and saves Calgar inadvertently by headbutting Abbadon into submission before running off saying "Orkz iz da best!".

In terms of tactics, are Stormboyz still best taken in min sized units to be used like Kommandos as mid-game objective grabbers? I've been tempted to run them in high numbers but after losing their advance and charge ability they need to be babysat by a Warboss on Bike in order to charge T1 and I'm not sure its viable compared to Da Jumping/Tellyporta boyz. So far I've run them as 5 MSU squads with Zagstruk, anybody else have any advice on how to run them?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 04:51:53


Post by: gungo


Ghaz needs to create more waagh energy in order to reach primeork status. He does this by gathering more and more orks into a bigger and bigger battle. When chaos hits armegedon ghaz will pull much more orks to armeggdon which already is the biggest battle in his lifetime and in that surge I see him ascending into a prime ork.

This likely won’t happen until chaos summons Angron on armeggdeon. Ironically orks will probably save the imperium by fighting khorne. Remember this is why orks were created in the first place!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 05:31:07


Post by: Solosam47


I am firmly on the side of Ghaz getting a new model when GW goes to do a little more focus on the armegedon conflict. I think it will be a strong zone for GW to capitalize on with Orks, IG, Black Templar, Khorne, and GK.

On the tactics side I am curious on people’s Stormboyz results as I have been finding it hard deciding to use them in my Goff’s with zagstruk. No more advancing and charging is kinda a bummer but what I feel really hurts them is the rule of 3. I want to run groups of 5 but having one 3 groups in total really feels like it will get shot off 1st turn. I can see merit though in using them strictly to grab obj when needed.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 08:48:47


Post by: Emicrania


Back to tactics for a second here
I was discussing with a friend last time and, we played orks vs orks, very fun match.
He thought of playing 2 unit of stormboyz, one of 5 and one of 20, field the 5 unit and DS the second, T2 auto advance, so move 18" ( 20" if ES), than congaline to 9", if you get closer to the enemy line and DS+ mob up with the other 20. Now you have 25 stormboyz (hopefully with warpath) with a very possible charge in range , anything from 3 to 6".
The idea is to be able to clear some chaff or seep thru enemy line and possibly block one or two artillery/tanks from firing


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 11:24:21


Post by: Vineheart01


thats a sneaky idea and stormboyz are the best to try that since they fly and can more easily stay out of sight until they want to charge.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 11:55:11


Post by: flandarz


The issue I got with Stormboyz is that they're fairly expensive and relatively fragile. Otherwise, they're good.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 14:28:03


Post by: tneva82


Hmm is there anything that might prevent that?

But on similar way t1 charge so that big mob advances normally and 10 mob advances flat 7(evil sun). Less mortal wounds and mob up ensures all are in combat with furthest models 21 ahead


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 15:32:41


Post by: Solosam47


Oh man, I’m gonna try the conga line ideas. I do find stormboyz fragile and that really hurts them in finding good uses. When I do use them I use them as little distractions or as prechargers to try to eat some overwatch from around corners.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 17:37:56


Post by: SemperMortis


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't feel that Ghazzy is going to go back to Armageddon.

There was a passage on the Snikrot page in our codex that implied that Ghazzy was no longer interested in Armageddon and that Snikrot was going to take it for himself. I don't know why but it stuck out to me.

It also concerns me that Ghazzy is all over the place at the same time, it gives him a distinct lack of focus and the same lack of focus for a release. If he was still at Octarius we could expect a release with Nids. If he was still at Armageddon we could expect a release with World Eaters. As it stands he's nowhere important as far as I can tell? All the places he's traveled to feel kind of "meh".



This makes me feel like Primorkz are just around the corner because the Beast was indistinguishable from his other brother Primorkz. So that could mean that the greatest Warbosses around right now have all ascended and there are now multiple Ghaz's running around in different warzones setting things on fire

As for Stormboyz....well I just bought 30 more off a friend bringing me to 75ish.....And i only bought them because they look cool because in the game they fething suck. "DEEP STRIKING BOYZ YOU SAY!" Ohh wait, I can save 2ppm and just take boyz and spend some CP to have them deep strike. Or, you know....da jump. Stormboyz need a gimmick badly because right now i view them as nothing more than expensive boyz with no bonus in combat.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 18:02:18


Post by: tneva82


Well threat range 28" is their gimmick


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 18:14:59


Post by: SemperMortis


tneva82 wrote:
Well threat range 28" is their gimmick
And my cheaper Boyz unit which da jumps turn 1 is better in every way possible. Or Kommandos which are now cheaper then Stormboyz, take them with a Evil Sunz detachment and you now have several units reliably getting into 8' charge range turn 2.

Leaving 30 Stormboyz on the table turn 1 is just a sure fire way to lose 270pts and if you bring them in smaller groups that is easy 1st blood and pray to god they don't get the multiple kill card otherwise that is a lot of easy kill points.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 20:22:57


Post by: tneva82


Da jump is a) tad less reliable b) one unit only. Stormboyz gives you potential for 3 plus boyz unit t1. Show how da jump gives 4 units charging into enemy t1? Da jumped boyz is also just as dead. Boyz plus stormboyz is harder to kill especially as they make both tougher

And kommando t2 is t2. Point with stormboyz isn't t2 but t1. Are you comparing always units with different units?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 21:18:04


Post by: flandarz


I think what they're getting at is that any task you wanna put the Stormboyz to, another unit can do it either cheaper or better. Nob Bikers (and most vehicles) can do T1 charges, and are more likely to survive them. Kommandos can do T2 DS, are cheaper, and have an extra +1 in cover. Stormboyz aren't bad, I don't think. They just don't have anything to really call their own.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 22:01:50


Post by: SemperMortis


 flandarz wrote:
I think what they're getting at is that any task you wanna put the Stormboyz to, another unit can do it either cheaper or better. Nob Bikers (and most vehicles) can do T1 charges, and are more likely to survive them. Kommandos can do T2 DS, are cheaper, and have an extra +1 in cover. Stormboyz aren't bad, I don't think. They just don't have anything to really call their own.


I do consider them bad because they are so expensive. 9ppm for basically faster boyz without the bonus to CC. At the moment my competitive armies rely on HARD Beta strikes. Let them blow up whatever they want turn 1 because turn two I have 90 boyz and 2 bonebreakers showing up from reserve/DaJump to feth you up. And generally what I have on the board turn 1 is a fethlaod of Grotz shielding my Loota bomb and all my characters along with maybe a mob or two of boyz.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 22:08:20


Post by: An Actual Englishman


SemperMortis wrote:


This makes me feel like Primorkz are just around the corner because the Beast was indistinguishable from his other brother Primorkz. So that could mean that the greatest Warbosses around right now have all ascended and there are now multiple Ghaz's running around in different warzones setting things on fire

As for Stormboyz....well I just bought 30 more off a friend bringing me to 75ish.....And i only bought them because they look cool because in the game they fething suck. "DEEP STRIKING BOYZ YOU SAY!" Ohh wait, I can save 2ppm and just take boyz and spend some CP to have them deep strike. Or, you know....da jump. Stormboyz need a gimmick badly because right now i view them as nothing more than expensive boyz with no bonus in combat.

Ah the thing with Ghazzy heavily implies that through his random warp jumps he is actually travelling back in time so appears to be at multiple locations at the same time taking names. Would love a primeork development but I doubt it.

Agreed with Stormboyz, they're too expensive for what they offer relative to Boyz and they are crucially not troops. So they are a CP tax. Take them as min squads for the cheapest FA filler perhaps in a brigade? I guess they could run to objectives mid game in a pinch.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 22:17:20


Post by: SemperMortis


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


This makes me feel like Primorkz are just around the corner because the Beast was indistinguishable from his other brother Primorkz. So that could mean that the greatest Warbosses around right now have all ascended and there are now multiple Ghaz's running around in different warzones setting things on fire

As for Stormboyz....well I just bought 30 more off a friend bringing me to 75ish.....And i only bought them because they look cool because in the game they fething suck. "DEEP STRIKING BOYZ YOU SAY!" Ohh wait, I can save 2ppm and just take boyz and spend some CP to have them deep strike. Or, you know....da jump. Stormboyz need a gimmick badly because right now i view them as nothing more than expensive boyz with no bonus in combat.

Ah the thing with Ghazzy heavily implies that through his random warp jumps he is actually travelling back in time so appears to be at multiple locations at the same time taking names. Would love a primeork development but I doubt it.

Agreed with Stormboyz, they're too expensive for what they offer relative to Boyz and they are crucially not troops. So they are a CP tax. Take them as min squads for the cheapest FA filler perhaps in a brigade? I guess they could run to objectives mid game in a pinch.


ATM my Tournament list doesn't even use brigades, I use 3 battalions. This way I get a lot of CP for my loota bomb and can still field my codex: deepstrike infantry/vehicles. I am thinking about possibly getting rid of my 2 Bonebreakers and taking more boyz but I haven't decided yet. The bonus to my bonebreakers is I put a warboss in Redder armor in one of them because its hilarious when you tell your opponent that they just took mortal wounds and because they come in turn 2 and have a pretty damned good chance to get into CC with anything I need them to be in CC with, especially when you factor in the 3D6 charge. On the flipside I could just as easily bring a few more warbosses on Warbike with Powerklaws or Saws instead and another mob of boyz in reserve via tellyporta......Regardless, the point is that I don't bring brigades because the elite and FA slots are basically taxes for us right now and it annoys me to no end.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 22:38:18


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Same, it's all about the battalions for any faction really. The flexibility is too valuable. I'm not convinced on Bonebreakas personally, they're fun but don't do much we can't do better in other ways.
You're right on our FA and Elite slots (apart from Nobz, maybe) but I'm too addicted to my bikes. I'll use them even if they are trash and certainly if they are mediocre-sub-optimal.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 22:41:51


Post by: SemperMortis


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Same, it's all about the battalions for any faction really. The flexibility is too valuable. I'm not convinced on Bonebreakas personally, they're fun but don't do much we can't do better in other ways.
You're right on our FA and Elite slots (apart from Nobz, maybe) but I'm too addicted to my bikes. I'll use them even if they are trash and certainly if they are mediocre-sub-optimal.


I am praying they get a major buff soon because I have 3 Scrapjets now and the idea of running 30 Warbikes, 3 scrapjets and a fethload of DeffKoptas makes me want to scream WAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/23 23:27:42


Post by: An Actual Englishman


So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:08:38


Post by: BaconCatBug


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.
Because a 10,000 year old veteran in powered armour with suspensor gear is the same as a 3 month old shooty lad travelling at 200km/h inside a cobbled together tank.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:12:15


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.
Because a 10,000 year old veteran in powered armour with suspensor gear is the same as a 3 month old shooty lad travelling at 200km/h inside a cobbled together tank.

I thought you didn't like inconsistent rulings? This is the most inconsistent of rulings I have seen. Modifiers apply to passengers in open topped transports unless it's Orks in a Battlewagon with heavy weapons. K.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:17:01


Post by: BaconCatBug


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
So just saw that Havoks can move and fire their heavy weapons without penalty, while our units are unable to get a recipient buff from a Battlewagon. Unreal.
Because a 10,000 year old veteran in powered armour with suspensor gear is the same as a 3 month old shooty lad travelling at 200km/h inside a cobbled together tank.

I thought you didn't like inconsistent rulings? This is the most inconsistent of rulings I have seen. Modifiers apply to passengers in open topped transports unless it's Orks in a Battlewagon with heavy weapons. K.
Sorry but how is it inconsistent? Modifiers apply to all versions of the open topped rule. The battlewagon rule that lets the battlewagon ignore modifiers is not itself a modifier, so it's not passed onto the passengers.

Nothing inconsistent about it. You not liking it doesn't warp reality to fit your conceptions. My Kabalite Warriors with Dark Lances also suffer a penalty when their Raider moves.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:29:07


Post by: An Actual Englishman


The Raider doesn't have a rule that negates the penalty though does it?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:32:54


Post by: BaconCatBug


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Raider doesn't have a rule that negates the penalty though does it?
No, it doesn't. What's your point?

I already explained that the Mobile Fortress rule is NOT a modifier nor a restriction, so it doesn't interact with Open Topped in any way, shape or form. Mobile Fortress doesn't make the penalty go away, it just allows "This Model" to ignore it. The unit inside a battlewagon is not "this model".


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:35:45


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Raider doesn't have a rule that negates the penalty though does it?
No, it doesn't. What's your point?

I already explained that the Mobile Fortress rule is NOT a modifier, so it doesn't interact with Open Topped in any way, shape or form. Mobile Fortress doesn't make the penalty go away, it just allows "This Model" to ignore it. The unit inside a battlewagon is not "this model".

Removing a penalty from a to hit roll isn't a modifier? K.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:40:12


Post by: BaconCatBug


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Removing a penalty from a to hit roll isn't a modifier? K.
No, it isn't. Not within the confines of the game rules. There are only 8 pages of rules, it's not hard to read them all. Tools of War sidebar.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:44:56


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Removing a penalty from a to hit roll isn't a modifier? K.
No, it isn't. Not within the confines of the game rules. There are only 8 pages of rules, it's not hard to read them all. Tools of War sidebar.

I disagree. A modification to one of the game rules is *literally* a modifier. But whatever, it's late here and I can't be arsed.

Great chat.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 00:47:29


Post by: BaconCatBug


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Removing a penalty from a to hit roll isn't a modifier? K.
No, it isn't. Not within the confines of the game rules. There are only 8 pages of rules, it's not hard to read them all. Tools of War sidebar.

I disagree. A modification to one of the game rules is *literally* a modifier. But whatever, it's late here and I can't be arsed.

Great chat.
A modification is not necessarily synonymous with modifier. Again, I've provided a rules citation, you've just gone "I Disagree lalalalalalalala". Not a very convincing argument there.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 06:10:43


Post by: russellmoo


I do think that stormboyz might have a place in a list given your convos line idea for a guaranteed t2 charge, but only if you are already bringing 2 other units of boys thirty strong. The one da jumps, the other tellyports and the stormboyz come in. You could reliably hit the enemy lines with 60 - 90 orks all in t2.

I do also feel that stormboyz need to cost the same as kommandos, I don't see why the two units are priced differently. As they have very similar weapon options, very similar stats. Apparently GW felt that +1 to cover saves and an extra inch of movement was worth 1 ppm while an extra 7" of movement and gaining the ability to advance 6 and blow yourself up is worth 2 ppm.

Personally I feel that faster movement is more valuable on better units, and less valuable on weaker units. If grots had the option to advance 6" for an additional 1 ppm I doubt players would feel it was worth the points spent, but a guaranteed 6" advance on a bonebreaker would probably worth 10 ppm.

In short GW needs to give our entire fast attack section in the codex a points drop. I've tried to find ways to take a fast attack choice but all of the FA choices while fast can't hold up to other choices.

The ork lists I've seen are all pulled from troops and heavy support, and the occasional flyer.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 11:01:10


Post by: Emicrania


I would be ok with blowing myself if the autoadvance would 10 or 12".


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 11:03:23


Post by: PiñaColada


 Emicrania wrote:
I would be ok with blowing myself if the autoadvance would 10 or 12".

Phrasing?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 18:12:22


Post by: Snotrokkit


I’ve been wanting to try out a Stormboyz/Boyz greentide. The major difference between this list and pre-codex 180 boy tide is that this is a more reliable turn 1, 2 punch and leaves out the footslogging. I’ll be using 5-model base-to-base movement trays to speed up gameplay. Format is ITC Champions packet with recent beta rules. Comments and criticism would be much appreciated:

2000 points - Orks

Battalion - Freebooterz
Big Mek (kff, Grot Oiler, warlord, “Follow me, ladz!”, da badskull banna)
Warboss on Warbike (da killa klaw)
30 Boyz (Nob BCH, CH; Boyz SL, CH)
30 Boyz (Nob BCH, CH; Boyz SL, CH)
30 Boyz (Nob BCH, CH; Boyz SL, CH)
30 Stormboyz (Nob BCH, CH; Boyz SL, CH)
25 Stormboyz (Nob CH, CH; Boyz SL, CH)
15 Kommandos (SL, CH; 2x Burna)

Battalion - Freebooterz
Big Mek on Warbike (kff)
Weirdboy
10 Boyz (Nob CH, CH; Boyz SL, CH)
10 Boyz (Nob CH, CH; Boyz SL, CH)
10 Grots

Battalion- Freebooterz and solitary Blood Axe
Weirdboy (Blood Axe, Morgog’s Finkin Kap, I’ve got a plan ladz!”
Weirdboy
10 Grots
10 Grots
10 Grots


Tellyporta one or two of the 30 boyz squads.
55 stormboyz, 40 da jumped boyz, and the biker characters are the turn one charge threat. The remaining 70 boyz and 15 Kommandos drop down and charge on turn two. The 40 grots shield the stormboyz if I go second, and after that hold backfield objectives and screen deepstrike. The warlord Big Mek stays backfield and helps the grots with morale with breakin ‘eadz, and he flies da badskull banna when you need to keep multiple units around during morale. The Weirdboyz da jump, warpath/Fists of Gork, and super smite their headz off, with the blood axe one being a bit more careful since he has to be alive to farm cp’s.

CP’s: I start with 19, -3 for extra gubbinz, -2 or -4 for Tellyporta, -1 for warphead? During the game use endless green tide, orks is never beaten on the Fists of gorked killa klaw boss, and get stuck in ladz on warpathed squads, and obviously mob up and some rerolls


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 18:21:05


Post by: Grimskul


Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 18:28:05


Post by: Snotrokkit


 Grimskul wrote:
Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.


Maybe I’ve just had good luck, but enough Choppas hitting on 3’s or 2’s can replace high strength, ap, and damage weapons I bring a little bucket to help me roll my dice


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 18:33:00


Post by: Emicrania


PiñaColada wrote:
 Emicrania wrote:
I would be ok with blowing myself if the autoadvance would 10 or 12".

Phrasing?


I forgot a verb there, did I


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 19:11:54


Post by: Grimskul


Snotrokkit wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.


Maybe I’ve just had good luck, but enough Choppas hitting on 3’s or 2’s can replace high strength, ap, and damage weapons I bring a little bucket to help me roll my dice


It's certainly enough to deal with most infantry, but you won't be able to guarantee always getting a good charge, due to chokepoints and the nature of terrain on the map (assuming you don't play on planet bowling ball). Plus, against T8 guys like Knights and Leman Russes, those hits don't mean much if you're wounding on 6's without AP, and the Nob can't hard carry like they did in the previous edition. Furthermore, before and after the intial tellyport/da jump, you want some way of cracking open transports to get to the contents within, and smasha gunz give you a way of doing some potential damage to the enemy.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/24 23:18:35


Post by: flandarz


This is the Freebooterz list I ran earlier today. Might give ya some ideas.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [42 PL, 809pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun

Kaptin Badrukk [5 PL, 88pts]: Ammo Runt

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 210pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Meganobz [10 PL, 175pts]
. Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

+ Flyer +

Dakkajet [7 PL, 128pts]: 4x Supa Shoota

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk [3 PL, 64pts]: Big Shoota

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [22 PL, 488pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

+ HQ +

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, 4. Fists of Gork, Warphead (1 CP)

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump, 5. Da Krunch, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Heavy Support +

Flash Gitz [13 PL, 274pts]: Ammo Runt, 8x Flash Git
. Kaptin: Choppa, Gitfinda Squig

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Orks) [35 PL, -1CP, 699pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Dread Waaaagh!

+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +

Gorkanaut [15 PL, 311pts]: 2x Rokkit Launcha, Skorcha, 2x Twin Big Shoota

Mek Gunz [8 PL, 152pts]
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz [8 PL, 152pts]
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Total: [99 PL, -1CP, 1996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 05:40:46


Post by: hollow one


Snotrokkit wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Main issue I see with that list is that you have no way of dealing with vehicles outside of the killa klaw boss and maaaaaybe the weird boys possibly smiting but it's not exactly super reliable. I'd consider having at least having a few smasha guns in the backfield and cutting out the 15 kommandos for either tankbustas or something with multi damage to give your list more punch.


Maybe I’ve just had good luck, but enough Choppas hitting on 3’s or 2’s can replace high strength, ap, and damage weapons I bring a little bucket to help me roll my dice
This is not true, your army loses to 2+ armor. T8 is also hard to beat. One gallant with the 2+ armor relic will beat your entire list.

Vs the gallant: Lets say 180 boys, 5 attacks each. 900 attacks, roughly 594 hits, roughly 95 wounds, roughly 15 unsaved damage. And that is an unrealistic amount of attacks to get in. In reality you'll probably do 5-6 wounds a turn at best. [edit: that's less than 1 expected damage per 10 boyz in combat. It's just so bad. Even if the target was T7-5 you're only getting 30 wounds in with 180 boyz, that's 1.6 expected damage per 10 boyz. That's abysmal. You'll never beat custodes for example.]

Your armies strength is board control and obsec. If you're going down this road in ITC you've gotta consider how you win the primary, and it almost certainly is in Hold More (plus the bonus in many rounds). So, I would ditch the kommandos and add durability to your list. Painboyz are a must, bring 2-3. One squad of stormboyz is probably enough, or a mob-up scenario of 10 on the board and 30 in the sky is probably better than your setup. I'd consider Snikrot for those hard to reach places that 30man blobs don't fit and/or can sit on an objective without getting shot off.

edit2: the more I think about it the more I think Snakebites would suit your army. 6+FNP and the monster hunter stratagem at least gives you a chance at hurting big targets. You can even give your backfield warlord the Snakebite warlord trait, making your grots fearless.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 07:37:48


Post by: Emicrania


Spoiler:
 flandarz wrote:
This is the Freebooterz list I ran earlier today. Might give ya some ideas.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [42 PL, 809pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun

Kaptin Badrukk [5 PL, 88pts]: Ammo Runt

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 210pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Meganobz [10 PL, 175pts]
. Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

+ Flyer +

Dakkajet [7 PL, 128pts]: 4x Supa Shoota

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk [3 PL, 64pts]: Big Shoota

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [22 PL, 488pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

+ HQ +

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, 4. Fists of Gork, Warphead (1 CP)

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump, 5. Da Krunch, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Heavy Support +

Flash Gitz [13 PL, 274pts]: Ammo Runt, 8x Flash Git
. Kaptin: Choppa, Gitfinda Squig

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Orks) [35 PL, -1CP, 699pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Dread Waaaagh!

+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +

Gorkanaut [15 PL, 311pts]: 2x Rokkit Launcha, Skorcha, 2x Twin Big Shoota

Mek Gunz [8 PL, 152pts]
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz [8 PL, 152pts]
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Total: [99 PL, -1CP, 1996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


As i am playing only Freebooterz myself atm I dare to give you some feedback.
The core is good but:
1 G-naut alone on the field will be blasted out by anybody with a mediocre firepower, you need 2 at least or invest 4 CP to DS and make sure you charge.
Same for the plane, you need 2 of them or it will be focused
Traktor kannon are great, generally smashaguns are better, ofc if you are not tailoring the list.
I personally find that 1 SAG is enough, I would personally have a warboss to support the orks with LD and kill some elite unit.
I saw no transportation so I guess you DS the nobz, which leave on the field the tankabusta and the gits and the orks, something will be shot to pieces, something important, and I don't know how much punch you would have left.
Lastly, the kultur works only if you can proc it every turn , possibly starting with gunz and than covering the field maybe with the shoota boyz, maybe with the DJ, so again I'm a bit worried you wouldn't be able to use the kultur at it best.

Anyway, happy to see a fellow pirate, giving them hell


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 14:24:02


Post by: flandarz


I *am* gonna make some adjustments, but it actually did real good yesterday. I was playing one of my Tau buddies, and we just decided to have a super casual game (no objectives or VP, just play until one person decides to give up or runs out of models). I put the MANz in a Tellyporta and the Gitz+Badrukk in the Trukk. Mek Gunz and SAGs were deployed to the back, with some Grots in front. Weirdboyz went behind the Boy squad, and the Trukk and Gork to either side. Dakka Jet off in a corner.

He deployed like a Tau player: bunched up for optimal FTGG. I think he was expecting me to rush into CC, because Orkz. I ended up getting first turn and moved the Jet up into his face, with the Gork and Trukk moving up to the center. Boyz got Warpathed and Da Jumped to flank.

I won't go through turn by turn, but I'll hit the highlights.

Boyz got beat down to just the Nob, but I Greentided them back. Unfortunately, they got wiped shortly after.

Gork and Jet both got 1-phased, but the Trukk and Gitz manages to pull through.

I focused on taking out his units with AP gunz, and then I pulled out the MANz. He had no options to deal with them effectively anymore and gave up around this point.

From playing the list, I'm gonna drop down to 2 Traktorz. But I'm gonna keep the 2 SAGs (1 Supa). They really did the hard work on taking out his vehicles and Commanders. The Jet did exactly what I expected it to: divert fire and die. That allowed my Gork and Trukk to survive to turn 2, and my Gitz to make it to turn 4. I ended up winning when he realized he couldn't really deal with my MANz and Gunz without some AP/high S weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 15:17:47


Post by: Waaaghbert


 flandarz wrote:

Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.


I have seen many people do this. Choppa-Boyz appear to be better on paper, but the new hottness appears to be shootas or at least something like 20/10 Shoota/choppa.


On another note: How do you guys run your bikes? Small Squad for Chaff clearing? Are they close to playable, or are they really THAT bad?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 17:30:36


Post by: tneva82


Waaaghbert wrote:
 flandarz wrote:

Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.


I have seen many people do this. Choppa-Boyz appear to be better on paper, but the new hottness appears to be shootas or at least something like 20/10 Shoota/choppa.


On another note: How do you guys run your bikes? Small Squad for Chaff clearing? Are they close to playable, or are they really THAT bad?


Well shootas have 2 shots on 5+ which generally is same as one on 3+. Well odds of getting 1 is somewhat less(55% vs 66%) but at times you get 2. Yes yes pistol but those have issue that not all often reach and sometimes you don't dare to shoot least you end up out of range(particularly deep strike). Shootas you can shoot elsewhere if worry. And 3 attacks is pretty good as it is!

I have plan to build 30 shoota mob for my evil sun. Shoot one chaff unit, charge 2nd(or 2+ units if close enough).

For bikes I have tried 6 strong unit for chaff clearing and even that's been struggling...Just not THAT much shots. 18 shots! Weee! This evil sun mob will shoot 59. Even with S5 vs T4 4+(say scouts) you are at half the wounds past save and against T3(say IG infantry...) extra blip of S is even less important. And in combat again 3 attacks vs 3 attacks...Wee! Okay price is also lot less obviously but also boyz will be tougher and troops rather than FA.

They generally struggle to deal with even 5 tac marines and 5 primaris marines...Well last time they literally spent near all game vs 5 primaris marines. Bleargh.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 18:07:43


Post by: PiñaColada


tneva82 wrote:
Waaaghbert wrote:
 flandarz wrote:

Also gonna turn the Boy Mob into all Shootaz. They never even made it into CC and I need some more chaff clearing.


I have seen many people do this. Choppa-Boyz appear to be better on paper, but the new hottness appears to be shootas or at least something like 20/10 Shoota/choppa.


On another note: How do you guys run your bikes? Small Squad for Chaff clearing? Are they close to playable, or are they really THAT bad?


Well shootas have 2 shots on 5+ which generally is same as one on 3+. Well odds of getting 1 is somewhat less(55% vs 66%) but at times you get 2. Yes yes pistol but those have issue that not all often reach and sometimes you don't dare to shoot least you end up out of range(particularly deep strike). Shootas you can shoot elsewhere if worry. And 3 attacks is pretty good as it is!

I have plan to build 30 shoota mob for my evil sun. Shoot one chaff unit, charge 2nd(or 2+ units if close enough).

For bikes I have tried 6 strong unit for chaff clearing and even that's been struggling...Just not THAT much shots. 18 shots! Weee! This evil sun mob will shoot 59. Even with S5 vs T4 4+(say scouts) you are at half the wounds past save and against T3(say IG infantry...) extra blip of S is even less important. And in combat again 3 attacks vs 3 attacks...Wee! Okay price is also lot less obviously but also boyz will be tougher and troops rather than FA.

They generally struggle to deal with even 5 tac marines and 5 primaris marines...Well last time they literally spent near all game vs 5 primaris marines. Bleargh.

Wait, do you think bikes only have 3 shots each? They have two dakkaguns, meaning 6 shots per bike


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 18:08:05


Post by: Vineheart01


Uh, 6 warbikers fires 36 shots not 18 shots.
They have slugga/choppa/2x dakkaguns. Thats 6 S5 AP0 1D shots not 3.

Do not use Battlescribe for rules it has a lot of typos or flatout incorrect statements. It shows them as only 1 gun, which is flatout wrong. It also shows the SAG does something completely different on 11+ strength than we have been praising it for doing the last few pages lol. I havnt noticed any point problems which is all i care to use it for.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 19:33:11


Post by: tneva82


Okay better. Forgot that one. Not living dictionary. Still worse T3 and T4 than 30 shoota boyz while being worse in h2h and softer vs return attacks. So for chaff clearing I would still take shoota boyz over bikes.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 19:52:23


Post by: PiñaColada


Well surely 9 bikes (207 points) are more effective than 30 boyz (210 points) with shooting against t4 targets?

Not saying that's the only factor, and bikes are indeed quite mediocre, but damage per point against t4 should still be in their favour (ever so slighlty, assuming my quick headmath is correct)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 20:10:24


Post by: Vineheart01


bikes primarily just suffer from S6+ AP-1 or AP-2 2-3damage shots are just way too easily spammed, its easy to have 20+ shots of such a weapon type in almost any army without really trying and they mulch the non-vehicle/monster multiwound models.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 20:21:26


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Bikes aren't good by any stretch and they have very....glaring weaknesses. They aren't entirely without value though.

They offer another first turn threat for the enemy to deal with (along with Da Jumped Boyz). Against most targets they are one of the only Ork units that actually deal more damage with their guns than their fists. Their combined shooting and melee can bring down a decent amount of chaff. They have T5 and a 4+ (that can be buffed to a 3+ if you don't get first turn) so can be weirdly survivable if the enemy doesn't have anything convenient in close proximity.

Like our entire army, they must be used in concert with other units to even be slightly effective, but they can be effective. 30ish Boyz and 12 Bikes is going to hurt most screens on the first turn and they don't care about abilities like Forewarned or Auspex that seem to give my Jumped Boyz a bad time.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 20:22:07


Post by: tneva82


PiñaColada wrote:
Well surely 9 bikes (207 points) are more effective than 30 boyz (210 points) with shooting against t4 targets?

Not saying that's the only factor, and bikes are indeed quite mediocre, but damage per point against t4 should still be in their favour (ever so slighlty, assuming my quick headmath is correct)


True. Barely though. 5.7361 scouts with shoota boyz vs 7 with bikes. Weee! Worse in h2h and very soft targets for enemy attacks to take down.

I'll take boyz any day for chaff clearing. Shooting difference isn't big but h2h and survivability is. Also better strategem for boyz with fight again and endless tide. Bikes get -1 to hit...In your turn so if opponent goes first not helping and enemy can also just shoot something else making wasted CP.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 20:23:31


Post by: PiñaColada


Well yeah, they have plenty of drawbacks. Plasma spam being chief among them IMO. They're also pretty darn weak in CC per point considering they're just boyz but cost more than 3x more whereas a SM biker is more akin to a 50% markup. Although to be fair base marines are a bit overcosted, so had they been correctly costed (10-11 pts) then a bike is roughly the price of 2 marines. I'm not saying that ork warbikers should be 14ppm but 18-19 seems alot more palatable. An extra attack on the charge would not go amiss either.

Hopefully we'll see some ork changes in the spring FAQ and seeing as adepticon is starting in just two days then the faq might be here in like two weeks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:

True. Barely though. 5.7361 scouts with shoota boyz vs 7 with bikes. Weee! Worse in h2h and very soft targets for enemy attacks to take down.

I'll take boyz any day for chaff clearing. Shooting difference isn't big but h2h and survivability is. Also better strategem for boyz with fight again and endless tide. Bikes get -1 to hit...In your turn so if opponent goes first not helping and enemy can also just shoot something else making wasted CP.

Sounds about right, both in math and assessment. I'm not saying bikes are good, or preferable over boyz, but just wanted to point that out.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 21:59:16


Post by: Vineheart01


imo bikers should just have the flat -1 to hit and not be dependant on that silly stratagem.
Why? Exhaust clouds has always been a rule for them. Whered it go? They lost a defining rule theyve had for eons and it wasnt shifted to anything else either.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 22:14:03


Post by: cody.d.


They may do better in a mechanized army. Alongside a large number of the new buggies, trucks or battlewagons. If the bikes are your only heavy units yeah sure they'll attract the weapons that counter them. But use them to support things like nobs in vehicles, heavy hitters that are wasted bashing medium infantry and they'd likely make their points back.

Additionally when comparing them to one unit of shootaboyz that can be jumped in they're a bit meh. But you can simply move and/or advance the bikers in, letting you move multiple units for that target saturation that orks live or die by.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 22:23:40


Post by: PiñaColada


cody.d. wrote:
They may do better in a mechanized army. Alongside a large number of the new buggies, trucks or battlewagons. If the bikes are your only heavy units yeah sure they'll attract the weapons that counter them. But use them to support things like nobs in vehicles, heavy hitters that are wasted bashing medium infantry and they'd likely make their points back.

Additionally when comparing them to one unit of shootaboyz that can be jumped in they're a bit meh. But you can simply move and/or advance the bikers in, letting you move multiple units for that target saturation that orks live or die by.

I mean at least both myself and An Actual Englishman play highly mechanised speed freeks armies. I'm sure they do a bit better in armies such as the ones we play but they're still just devastatingly mediocre. You simply end up paying too much for what you get, they can still do work but most of the time they end up nowhere near earning their points back (either from actual killing or whatever vague strategical value you'd ascribe tying stuff up and scoring objectives).


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/25 23:31:38


Post by: Coh Magnussen


Rokkit vs KMB -- is there a clear winner here on things like DeffKoptas and Grot Tanks? I plan to magnetize the gun on my Grot Tanks, but that will be harder to do on the koptas.

I'm planning to run mostly freebootas, but I'm not above rolling in the grot tanks under a Deathskull banner (along with a SAG mech maybe?) if it makes sense.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 00:02:23


Post by: flandarz


Updated my Freebooterz list. I think it should run better than the last one.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/773313.page#10393645


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 06:58:15


Post by: koooaei


 Emicrania wrote:
Back to tactics for a second here
I was discussing with a friend last time and, we played orks vs orks, very fun match.
He thought of playing 2 unit of stormboyz, one of 5 and one of 20, field the 5 unit and DS the second, T2 auto advance, so move 18" ( 20" if ES), than congaline to 9", if you get closer to the enemy line and DS+ mob up with the other 20. Now you have 25 stormboyz (hopefully with warpath) with a very possible charge in range , anything from 3 to 6".
The idea is to be able to clear some chaff or seep thru enemy line and possibly block one or two artillery/tanks from firing


Are you sure you can mob up a unit with a deepstriking one? Both actions happen at the end of the movement phase.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 08:19:17


Post by: tneva82


Coh Magnussen wrote:
Rokkit vs KMB -- is there a clear winner here on things like DeffKoptas and Grot Tanks? I plan to magnetize the gun on my Grot Tanks, but that will be harder to do on the koptas.

I'm planning to run mostly freebootas, but I'm not above rolling in the grot tanks under a Deathskull banner (along with a SAG mech maybe?) if it makes sense.


With dethskull rerolls plasma all the way for me. Less overheats, higher average damage than 3. But grot tanks have gretchin keyword = no clan trait for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:
 Emicrania wrote:
Back to tactics for a second here
I was discussing with a friend last time and, we played orks vs orks, very fun match.
He thought of playing 2 unit of stormboyz, one of 5 and one of 20, field the 5 unit and DS the second, T2 auto advance, so move 18" ( 20" if ES), than congaline to 9", if you get closer to the enemy line and DS+ mob up with the other 20. Now you have 25 stormboyz (hopefully with warpath) with a very possible charge in range , anything from 3 to 6".
The idea is to be able to clear some chaff or seep thru enemy line and possibly block one or two artillery/tanks from firing


Are you sure you can mob up a unit with a deepstriking one? Both actions happen at the end of the movement phase.


Arqument for "yes". Both happens end of movement phase so sequence rule kicks in and you choose order. Arqument for no relies on this:

Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that are used ‘during your Movement phase’?A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

but strategem doesn't happen "during your movement phase".


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 08:33:58


Post by: Emicrania


Doesn't that mean that they both happen at the end? Like if DS 3 unit , won't they arrive in that time period, but still one after another?
I read it like as you deploy one DS unit after the other, so you DS and mob up, one action after the other.
Or?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 08:49:28


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 08:59:51


Post by: Emicrania


Also, why the hell do I have a Norwegian flag now ?!?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 09:11:51


Post by: Jidmah


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.


I'm pretty sure that there is a FAQ somewhere preventing Death Guard from using Cloud of Flies on Blightlord terminators arriving from deep strike - as that was a tournament-winning strategy that got axed this way. Cloud of Flies is also used at the end of the movement phase.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 09:31:10


Post by: Singleton Mosby


It is a nice little trick and I would love to see the look on the face of an opponent when that 'little squad of five Stormboyz' suddenly turns out to be a big mob...and comming to get him.

Works best when you rund multiple MSU units across the board first turn. But still very situational.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 09:40:48


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Jidmah wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.


I'm pretty sure that there is a FAQ somewhere preventing Death Guard from using Cloud of Flies on Blightlord terminators arriving from deep strike - as that was a tournament-winning strategy that got axed this way. Cloud of Flies is also used at the end of the movement phase.


E - CoF is not used at the end of the movement phase, it's used 'during your' [movement phase].



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 10:52:28


Post by: tneva82


 Jidmah wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.


I'm pretty sure that there is a FAQ somewhere preventing Death Guard from using Cloud of Flies on Blightlord terminators arriving from deep strike - as that was a tournament-winning strategy that got axed this way. Cloud of Flies is also used at the end of the movement phase.


Probably refering to the FAQ entry I quoted but that applies to "during movement phase". Mob up is done at the end of movement phase. Blightlords don't arrive during movement phase but at the end of movement phase so that's blocked but so far haven't found nothing to say mob up would be covered by same strategem.

GW writing!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 10:52:51


Post by: Emicrania


I mean, if you wanna go bananas, you can deploy 10 stormboyz in a battlewagon, move it or advance it in cover or simply stay still on the border of deployment.
Disembark 3" move+ autoadvance 18" (20" ES), mob up with 30 stormboyz, warpath.
Now you have 40 (-1/2 MW from autoadvance) 21/23" up your enemy face. Than remember that you can move EVERYWHERE YOU WANT during the charge. Now you can backtrack to grab that objective and be in Warboss breaking heads range. Than pile in combat and consolidate to block that nasty backline.
I'll try it this weekend, we LL see what happens


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 11:00:54


Post by: tneva82


 Emicrania wrote:
I mean, if you wanna go bananas, you can deploy 10 stormboyz in a battlewagon, move it or advance it in cover or simply stay still on the border of deployment.
Disembark 3" move+ autoadvance 18" (20" ES), mob up with 30 stormboyz, warpath.
Now you have 40 (-1/2 MW from autoadvance) 21/23" up your enemy face. Than remember that you can move EVERYWHERE YOU WANT during the charge. Now you can backtrack to grab that objective and be in Warboss breaking heads range. Than pile in combat and consolidate to block that nasty backline.
I'll try it this weekend, we LL see what happens


Yeah well that's what I'll be planning to do next week when I try first version of list for competive tournament.

death skull battallion:

relic SAG
weirdboy
3x10 grots
3xscrapjet
2xshock jump

evil sun battallion:

warboss W/relic klaw
weirdboy
3x30 boyz, all with big choppa and choppa nob
30xstormboyz w/big choppa
10xstormboyz w/big choppa
smasha gun

Evil sun warboss advances, then 30 stormboyz ensuring they are within warboss aura range and then 10 will swoosh in max chaining toward big mob, then mob up, charge up. Only 10 checks for mortal wounds.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 22:48:08


Post by: SemperMortis


Does anyone else now feel like GW just wrote our codex and thought

"Good enough" and most of that was spent on stratagems instead of making our codex balanced or playable for most of our units.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 23:28:48


Post by: CKO


If you had to rank the top 3 units in the codex what would they be? Please include stratagems and tactics in your opinions, thanks! I know its hard to do that these days with all the buffs but if anything just pretend its a combo if it involves multiple units.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 23:51:43


Post by: flandarz


1) Mek Gunz (Smashas specifically). Obvious choice. Got solid range, good damage, about the best BS you'll find in Orkz, and cheap as balls. No Stratagems, but with a unit this good, you don't need any.

2) Grots. Garbage on their own, but whether filling Battalions for CP, hopping on Objectives, bubblewrapping, or Grot Shielding, they have a lot of purposes beyond what might be obvious. Also crazy cheap.

3) Bonebreaker. A bit on the expensive side, but it's a powerhouse and crazy durable. Couple with Evil Sunz and Ramming Speed to get this bad boy into the thick of CC, where it really shines. As a Transport, it can also bring along some Infantry with it, and if it gets taken out, then can Loot It for better Saves.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/26 23:52:08


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I played again this evening.

1750 vs Ulthwe Eldar.

Our warbikes are fething awful. No AP on their weapons is a problem, they just don't hit very hard. Even with weight of numbers. Their bases are unwieldy so its unlikely every model in a 12 man squad makes it into combat.

Our buggies are trash - SJD managed to do 2 wounds to a war walker before being removed by low strength shots. Why they gave our buggies such a price tag and a 4+ save is beyond me.

My opponent could see the smoke plume of my weird boy with his sniper autarch and killed him first round.

Next round he helped finish a KFF big Mek.

Once the support characters go, and they really aren't hard to remove at all, out army just implodes. Its really, really poor.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 03:31:58


Post by: russellmoo


I just keep telling myself that the buggies are going to get a points reduction, over and over again, every time I look at my rukkatruck sqigbuggy, I tell myself your time will come.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 07:15:13


Post by: An Actual Englishman


russellmoo wrote:
I just keep telling myself that the buggies are going to get a points reduction, over and over again, every time I look at my rukkatruck sqigbuggy, I tell myself your time will come.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

It winds me up no end that CSM players are lamenting the 12W of the Lord discordant when you compare his abilities and stats to any of the Ork buggies. It's like night and day.

How they pointed him at 160 and a squig buggy at 140 is baffling.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 08:05:51


Post by: PiñaColada


 CKO wrote:
If you had to rank the top 3 units in the codex what would they be? Please include stratagems and tactics in your opinions, thanks! I know its hard to do that these days with all the buffs but if anything just pretend its a combo if it involves multiple units.

The suggestions by Flandarz are good but I'd also check out the first page of this thread. I feel we've (primarily Jidmah) done a pretty good job of breaking down ork units to something easier to grasp. At least as a first step before choosing what to look into more closely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
russellmoo wrote:
I just keep telling myself that the buggies are going to get a points reduction, over and over again, every time I look at my rukkatruck sqigbuggy, I tell myself your time will come.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Well, Adepticon starts today and ends at the end of March. Hopefully we get some indication of what they're doing during the event. Even if they don't the FAQ shouldn't be more than two weeks away, tops. If they don't fix any of the Ork stuff in that, then I'll be crying manly ork tears


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 10:30:18


Post by: Jidmah


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I played again this evening.

1750 vs Ulthwe Eldar.

Our warbikes are fething awful. No AP on their weapons is a problem, they just don't hit very hard. Even with weight of numbers. Their bases are unwieldy so its unlikely every model in a 12 man squad makes it into combat.

Our buggies are trash - SJD managed to do 2 wounds to a war walker before being removed by low strength shots. Why they gave our buggies such a price tag and a 4+ save is beyond me.

My opponent could see the smoke plume of my weird boy with his sniper autarch and killed him first round.

Next round he helped finish a KFF big Mek.

Once the support characters go, and they really aren't hard to remove at all, out army just implodes. Its really, really poor.


I know your pain - be happy your opponent was Ulthwe though, my regular eldar opponent is allaitioc (actually has been since 4th edition!) and not only do you get -50% shooting on most of your army, but he can bring Illic Nightspear on top of the sniper Autarch. With the help of 3-6 units of rangers your are sure to lose all your characters by turn 2.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 10:53:56


Post by: Emicrania


They really need to fix the sniper thing; either that or they take the turds that write the eldari codex and give them a choice, either the start writing codexes like that for everyone or the wheel.
As breaking on the wheel.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 11:14:35


Post by: Jidmah


I prefer the imagery of a warboss standing behind them and hitting them with an actual trukk wheel whenever they mess up.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 11:33:16


Post by: PiñaColada


I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 11:55:51


Post by: Waaaghbert


Maybe the Mek with KFF in Megaarmour or the Morkanaut is the solution to sniping the Meks. The weirdboys on the other hand are another business.... :(


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 12:08:58


Post by: G00fySmiley


throwing a quick nod to Boss Zagstruk. I have been using him as a deep striking countermeasure. I do not take him with a unit of stormboys, rather as a single HQ slot for 88 points.

His missile rarely does anything but can chip the paint on medium vehicles or peel some wounds off of infantry if lucky. slugga is a slugga.. i mean shoot it but don't expect it to do anything, take a shot every time it hits and you will surely be sober most games.

His great strength though is just having a hard hitting character ready to deep strike it turn 2 or 3. 3 str 8 ap -3 D D3 attacks and 4 str 6 ap 0 attacks all exploding on 6's. he hits pretty hard and punches above his weightclass in points. Combine with a 18 inch movement before a charge and you have a zippy little hard hitting git.

I have had several games where being able to jump in their back field and only needing to place one model base resulted in sneaking into the one spot he fits. then he just starts tearing into important stuff or picking off sniper units, or even just clearing some chaff and sitting out of LOS on an objective collecting points as the opponent who just witnessed it shred a squad does not want to send anything over to deal with it. he has a 4+ and 5+++ with W6 so is somewhat durable. Before dropping him I have lootas and dakkajets concentrate on wiping anything with indirect fire like mortar teams that could pose a threat to him hiding out.

Combine with a weirdboy the jumping a large unit of boys to redeploy and you can surprise an opponent or rather do the unexpected and have a character and large boys squad zip into an unprepared position left open durring deployment if you finished placing first. .


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 12:44:33


Post by: Jidmah


PiñaColada wrote:
I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best


Just for comparison, Death Guard support characters are 4W/T5/3+/5+++ and costs 55-60 points, and that very same eldar list manages to kill about two per turn.
A Waaagh! Banner nob is 77, a Big Mek is 75-80, a painboy is 65 and a Weirdboy is 62.

So, compared to the already mediocre Death Guard characters, which are much, much more survivable to sniper fire, our characters are about 30 points above what they should cost. The only one which is fine is the weirdboy, the comparable Death Guard Character is 110 points.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 12:53:14


Post by: PiñaColada


 Jidmah wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best


Just for comparison, Death Guard support characters are 4W/T5/3+/5+++ and costs 55-60 points, and that very same eldar list manages to kill about two per turn.
A Waaagh! Banner nob is 77, a Big Mek is 75-80, a painboy is 65 and a Weirdboy is 62.

So, compared to the already mediocre Death Guard characters, which are much, much more survivable to sniper fire, our characters are about 30 points above what they should cost. The only one which is fine is the weirdboy, the comparable Death Guard Character is 110 points.

I get what you're saying but death guard characters being durable is sort of their thing. I don't have a problem with snipers in general (as in I don't hate them, my characters still die to them every once in a while obviously). A 4+ save on everyone along with significant price cuts on a few of them and I'd be happy with that. Our characters are a bit squishier than SM ones and for snipers to be at all useful they need to be able to threat the at least somewhat tougher characters meaning our guys will be susceptible. That's fine as long as we're not overpaying for them, which we currently are. So improve saves, bring down price and let every character have the option of a personal grot shield to tank a wound and we're golden IMO.

I still feel like the waaagh energy should give the weirdboy a 5++, he's 62 points and -super- easy to kill. Any daemon player can attest to a 5++ isn't some game changing bulwark, but it'd help out every now and then.

Edit: The eliminators scare me a bit however. Those mortis rounds that don't require LoS (my primary defense against snipers) could prove troublesome. Haven't faced any yet though.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 13:14:30


Post by: G00fySmiley


PiñaColada wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best


Just for comparison, Death Guard support characters are 4W/T5/3+/5+++ and costs 55-60 points, and that very same eldar list manages to kill about two per turn.
A Waaagh! Banner nob is 77, a Big Mek is 75-80, a painboy is 65 and a Weirdboy is 62.

So, compared to the already mediocre Death Guard characters, which are much, much more survivable to sniper fire, our characters are about 30 points above what they should cost. The only one which is fine is the weirdboy, the comparable Death Guard Character is 110 points.

I get what you're saying but death guard characters being durable is sort of their thing. I don't have a problem with snipers in general (as in I don't hate them, my characters still die to them every once in a while obviously). A 4+ save on everyone along with significant price cuts on a few of them and I'd be happy with that. Our characters are a bit squishier than SM ones and for snipers to be at all useful they need to be able to threat the at least somewhat tougher characters meaning our guys will be susceptible. That's fine as long as we're not overpaying for them, which we currently are. So improve saves, bring down price and let every character have the option of a personal grot shield to tank a wound and we're golden IMO.

I still feel like the waaagh energy should give the weirdboy a 5++, he's 62 points and -super- easy to kill. Any daemon player can attest to a 5++ isn't some game changing bulwark, but it'd help out every now and then.

Edit: The eliminators scare me a bit however. Those mortis rounds that don't require LoS (my primary defense against snipers) could prove troublesome. Haven't faced any yet though.


It is fine to say deathguard are supopssed to be durable, but when they are offensively comparable and defensively better than an ork character for less points... that is a problem no?

I think GW looked at a lot of our units from the 6th edition codex where we overpaid by boatloads for everything, then dropped it so we pay less than that but still more than most armies for what our units do and said "fixed". It is admitadly much better than the past 2 editions, but the ork tax is real. I think GW somehow things orks roll max numebr of shots and are hitting with every one of those shots (only explanation I can think of).

Also some of our untis are just strictly worse for the same cost. look at a burna boy, a boy with a flamer who somehow costs what an imperial flamer costs plus the cost of a boy but with d3 hits instead of d6. They do get a melee (str 4 ap-2 d1) profile which is nice but at t4 and 6+ save because of the cost they will rarely use it because throwing that profile in melee means you just die in the next shooting phase when the unit walks away (fallback without penalty is sooo dumb). increased durability might fix them but i doubt GW is willign to give them a 4+ (probably the easiest fix)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 13:28:16


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Jidmah wrote:

I know your pain - be happy your opponent was Ulthwe though, my regular eldar opponent is allaitioc (actually has been since 4th edition!) and not only do you get -50% shooting on most of your army, but he can bring Illic Nightspear on top of the sniper Autarch. With the help of 3-6 units of rangers your are sure to lose all your characters by turn 2.

Oh man that sounds grim. Do you agree with me about the folding thing?

I don't want to sound defeatist but our units seem so bad when they haven't got the buffs on them. Or is it just me?

For the record re KFF I took a Wazzbom and a combined Prism + Hemlock wrecked that in 2 turns. Though I placed his KFF well I had very poor target priority with it so need to play better but still. Ugh.

Grot support characters are mandatory though. I did forget about my oiler which cost me the KFF Mek, to be fair.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 13:33:02


Post by: Vineheart01


Yeah the buggies all need like a 30-40pt price reduction, Squigbuggy might need even more than that. Most expensive buggy, easily the weakest in every way....
Statwise ork stuff feels properly "half as good" as other army equivs, which is what theyre supposed to be as we spam things we dont take 1 T8 vehicle and expect it to live longer than 3 units worth of shooting at it, we take 2 and expect 1 to blow up or be on its last wounds very quickly and the other to be almost unscathed.
But pricewise, were BARELY cheaper and some of our gak is even more expensive (or exact price but weaker). Power Fists are 9pts for everybody EXCEPT orks which is 13pts wtf is with that crap?
Price difference of Marine vs Primaris and Boy vs Nob for example really bugs me. Nobz are 2x a boy, Primaris are 4pts more....


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 14:00:19


Post by: PiñaColada


The grot oiler is really good against the new vindicares. I had an oppponent shoot at my super SAG mek and he only killed the grot. Then I explained to him that he couldn't roll off for the extra MWs since he killed the model he shot at. And he couldn't use the shoot twice strat (well he could, but had no other targets) since even though the grot is a different model it's still the same target.

Next turn I used grot shields just to annoy him

I don't think all the buggies need a price cut as drastic as 30-40 points however. The scrapjet and KBB are -almost- worth it as is IMO. Including wargear something like this would be fair I think:
Deffkilla 105
Scrapjet 90
KBB 80
SJD 90
BDSW 70
Squigbuggy 90 (?)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 14:05:33


Post by: Vineheart01


I'd drop the squigbuggy further still. It feels like it does absolutely nothing other than having enough wounds to be annoying to remove (not hard, annoying)
The mine is so laughably easy to get around or have screeners eat it, since it isnt gonna live long enough to drop it T5 to try and deny an objective.

The rest...yeah that feels about right off hand. They compare to Deffdredds at those prices imo, trading some durability for speed/dakka


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 14:20:10


Post by: G00fySmiley


While I do not disagree the buggies are mostly overcosted the Scrap jet, KBB and SJD are all currently pretty good compared to the rest of the rest of the codex.

the wartrike is in the same boat. overcosted compared to other armies things like biker marine captains or custodes shield captains, btu still has a place nn the tabel as is. could use a drop but does nto need a big one.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 14:22:35


Post by: Jidmah


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Oh man that sounds grim. Do you agree with me about the folding thing?

Depends.
If my army focuses on nobz, bonekrushas and planes, most characters are just HQ tax and do not serve another function but generating CP and softening the alpha-strike. The biker-warboss can be hidden behind a battlewagon and the SAG can be put put of range.
However, anything that relies on two or more units of boyz, also relies on warboss, weirdboyz, banners, docs and/or KFFs being there, those completely fall apart when their characters are gone.

I don't want to sound defeatist but our units seem so bad when they haven't got the buffs on them. Or is it just me?

Kind of. For most archetypes, when you shove all our decent units into a pile, they don't make for a coherent army, you are basically force to take some duds. The only thing that really does work well is shooty bad moons and freebootas, but for many players this not what you singed up for when starting orks. That, or you refuse to jump ship just to get the best kulture, which is a massive difference.

For the record re KFF I took a Wazzbom and a combined Prism + Hemlock wrecked that in 2 turns. Though I placed his KFF well I had very poor target priority with it so need to play better but still. Ugh.

Hemlocks are pretty much top priority no matter what. I can't think of anything more dangerous than flying psykers with super-deadly flamers. Lootas usually do the job pretty well, as they can just ignore their -2 to hit with More Dakka and blow them right out of the sky.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 14:37:02


Post by: PiñaColada


The problem with a hemlock is that it doesn't degrade. I mean it does, but not really. It auto hits and has assault weapons so even at 1 wound remaining it hits the same and still move up to 45". You might be spared from the psychic power if it's super low on health I guess.

So shooting at one can be pretty risky since there's a fairly realistic chance you've effectively done nothing that turn then


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 14:44:54


Post by: Vineheart01


Dunno bout you guys but i feel the only reason i use the Deffkilla is the vehicle adv+charge and nothing else. Unless hes my warlord and uses Might is Right or Kunnin' but Brutal he just never does anything worth his points himself, but if i make him my warlord i pretty much guarantee i give up Slay the Warlord because i have yet to actually keep him from being the closest model after an assault. Base is simply too large to weave him into another unit.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 14:58:43


Post by: DaisyWondercow


 G00fySmiley wrote:
throwing a quick nod to Boss Zagstruk. I have been using him as a deep striking countermeasure. I do not take him with a unit of stormboys, rather as a single HQ slot for 88 points.


This sounds awesome. He's tough enough, dangerous enough, and the whole idea of a lone boss tearing up the backline is conceptually pretty sweet.

He is Goff-Locked, though, right? Do you run your whole list as Goffs? Just a sneaky patrol detachment with 10 grots?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 15:25:49


Post by: Jidmah


PiñaColada wrote:
So shooting at one can be pretty risky since there's a fairly realistic chance you've effectively done nothing that turn then


12 T6 wounds should be killable though, especially since it will be in range of every single weapon you have. Smite it, shoot it with lootas or tankbustas with More Dakka! to soften it up (or just outright kill it by shooting twice) and then just throw everything you have at it, sluggas, stikkbombs, shootas, grot blastas, skorchas and every other weapon you don't need for something specific. Make sure to use both profiles of any kombi-weapons you have. If that fails use some more of your good guns like the SAG, meks guns until it's dead. Usually, you should have no trouble downing it unless your dice hate you.

If you are running a green tide, ignoring it is an option. No matter how awesome those flamers are, they kill no more than 2d3 models per turn, which is laughable, even when they are targeting your lootas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
Dunno bout you guys but i feel the only reason i use the Deffkilla is the vehicle adv+charge and nothing else. Unless hes my warlord and uses Might is Right or Kunnin' but Brutal he just never does anything worth his points himself, but if i make him my warlord i pretty much guarantee i give up Slay the Warlord because i have yet to actually keep him from being the closest model after an assault. Base is simply too large to weave him into another unit.


Have you tried protecting him with planes? Even if you can't protect him from all shooting that way, my dakka jets have often prevented enemy shooty units from targeting my bikers boss by jumping into the enemy army.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 15:30:35


Post by: G00fySmiley


 DaisyWondercow wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
throwing a quick nod to Boss Zagstruk. I have been using him as a deep striking countermeasure. I do not take him with a unit of stormboys, rather as a single HQ slot for 88 points.


This sounds awesome. He's tough enough, dangerous enough, and the whole idea of a lone boss tearing up the backline is conceptually pretty sweet.

He is Goff-Locked, though, right? Do you run your whole list as Goffs? Just a sneaky patrol detachment with 10 grots?


goff batallion: warphead wierdboy w/ warpath and da jump , boss Zagstruk, 29 slugga choppa boys w/ nob w/ killsaw taken as skarboys, 2 10 man gretchin. 435 points and 5 cp (you net 3 as warphead costs 1 and so does skarboys). assuming you get your powers off, which you should thanks to waaagh energy, 4+ on 2d6 , then you have 29 str 5 boys jumping in 9 inches, with 4 attacks each and a nob w/ 5 attachs at str 12.... and if you are against tau cry as they all die to overwatch, so change up your strategy, choose different powers, do not warphead upgrade or skarboys


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 15:35:25


Post by: Vineheart01


My locals despise my dakkajets so they dont live long lol. I still take them because they tend to last longer than other vehicles due to the -1 to hit (its so lovely to feel multiple plasma cannon shots whiff because he rolled 3s lol)
That, and i find it hard to move the planes into a specific position like that without ending up going off the board next turn or the turn after. I dont get why i have such a problem with that, i know its just the way im using them but i dont see it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 16:13:01


Post by: Jidmah


I attached a quick draft on how I usually move my planes. Of course, you rarely get to make that many moves, but those patterns should keep them from crashing

[Thumb - fly.png]


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 17:19:56


Post by: Lloyld


 Vineheart01 wrote:
Dunno bout you guys but i feel the only reason i use the Deffkilla is the vehicle adv+charge and nothing else. Unless hes my warlord and uses Might is Right or Kunnin' but Brutal he just never does anything worth his points himself, but if i make him my warlord i pretty much guarantee i give up Slay the Warlord because i have yet to actually keep him from being the closest model after an assault. Base is simply too large to weave him into another unit.

The second that model was out I picked it up and have been trying to get him to work in my mostly Speed Freeks army since. But his weapons never seem to hit, I give him the 5+ FNP he never makes, and he usually just ends up dying turn two or so.

I recently had a 2000-point game against space wolves mostly running Thunderhammer/Stormshields and Dreadnaughts, after 3 volleys of 15 Lootas (each number of shots was 1 naturally) I only chipped two wounds off the Venerable Dread. I think I maybe did a total of 10 wounds the whole game before I was wiped, the only thing that really ended up being reliable was my two Weirdboyz under a KFF.

As much as I think this codex is fairly weak compared to others, I will say I do still have a lot of fun with the new codex at least.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 18:19:59


Post by: mhalko1


Okay so with our various units and utilities, what are our best matchups army wise? who do we match up best against?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 18:32:38


Post by: flandarz


As long as they ain't running Knight Soup or Eldar Flyer Spam, I'd say we're gonna perform well against any army. But, really, it all boils down to composition (and to a lesser degree, luck) anyway. No Faction has just one type of composition, so saying "Orkz will always beat Space Marines," or something similar, is gonna be setting new players up for disappointment. Beat thing you can do is make a list that can handle a *variety* of different armies. And hope you don't go up against either of the lists I posted above.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 18:41:56


Post by: tneva82


 G00fySmiley wrote:
then you have 29 str 5 boys jumping in 9 inches, with 4 attacks each and a nob w/ 5 attachs at str 12.... and if you are against tau cry as they all die to overwatch, so change up your strategy, choose different powers, do not warphead upgrade or skarboys


Note. Skarboy nob is S5 base. Skarboy is not +1S. It's S5. Ergo nob doesn't change anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Competive tournament coming up. I want to try at least some new buggies I have been painting. 2k, flowchart(ie index if you have codex) and understrength banned. Considering death skull + bad moon shooty combo.

Battallion: Deathskull

relic SAG
weirdboy
3x30 boyz. Each with power klaw, 2 with rokkit, 1 with kombi rokkit on nob(last model to die generally so why NOT take kombi rokkit rather than rokkit boy anyway?)
3xscrapjet
3xtraktor kannon, 3xsmasha gun. These in pairs

Battallion: bad moon

2xweirdboy
3x10 grot
30xgrot
runtherd
15xloota

Unsurprisingly not particularly mobile list. Maybe I could try to fit painboy here to give my 90 boyz 6++/6+++. Unit of grots and something...Maybe swap one traktor into another smasha gun.

Mobility will be mainly with scrapjets while they are alive and da jump. 2 weirdboys have that, 1 warpath as basic plan. Da krunch maybe against somebody with big units.

Warlord trait on SAG will most likely be the +1 to wound thing. That or the deathskull one. Less likely to wound but if enemy has lots of characters that are likely to come near maybe worth it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 19:23:10


Post by: An Actual Englishman


PiñaColada wrote:
The grot oiler is really good against the new vindicares. I had an oppponent shoot at my super SAG mek and he only killed the grot. Then I explained to him that he couldn't roll off for the extra MWs since he killed the model he shot at. And he couldn't use the shoot twice strat (well he could, but had no other targets) since even though the grot is a different model it's still the same target.

Next turn I used grot shields just to annoy him

I don't think all the buggies need a price cut as drastic as 30-40 points however. The scrapjet and KBB are -almost- worth it as is IMO. Including wargear something like this would be fair I think:
Deffkilla 105
Scrapjet 90
KBB 80
SJD 90
BDSW 70
Squigbuggy 90 (?)


This is appropriate, hopefully GW got our emails!

 Jidmah wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
So shooting at one can be pretty risky since there's a fairly realistic chance you've effectively done nothing that turn then


12 T6 wounds should be killable though, especially since it will be in range of every single weapon you have. Smite it, shoot it with lootas or tankbustas with More Dakka! to soften it up (or just outright kill it by shooting twice) and then just throw everything you have at it, sluggas, stikkbombs, shootas, grot blastas, skorchas and every other weapon you don't need for something specific. Make sure to use both profiles of any kombi-weapons you have. If that fails use some more of your good guns like the SAG, meks guns until it's dead. Usually, you should have no trouble downing it unless your dice hate you.


Pina is right that it's pretty dumb the plane is the only vehicle in the game that I know of that doesn't actually degrade. It's also dumb it's the only flyer than can pivot twice.

You'll need more Dakka because they always, without fail either stack -2 to hit with Alaitoc (though my Ulthwe bud stayed fluffy, thus giving him absolutely no benefit but cementing his place as a legend) or drop their "rofl shame you tried to shoot/hit that thing in melee bs LFR" strat.

I've also found that the "throwing everything at it" approach can work but is a massive, MASSIVE time sink for often very little return. Nothing more fun than rolling 70 odd dice, then 10 or so only for the dude to make 5 saves and 3 FNPs.

I know they aren't the ideal target, but yesterday I shot Wraithblades with 9 bikes and did a total of 1 Wound. Cover is a bitch.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 19:31:04


Post by: Vineheart01


cover needs to get reverted to 7th rules where its a flat save and it applies via True LOS not whole unit in the terrain.
RIght now only people that even get it are those that rock 3+ saves as it is, thus get a 2+ save, and the ones that actually need it cant get it and dont really benefit when they do because AP negates it now.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 20:10:45


Post by: mhalko1


 flandarz wrote:
As long as they ain't running Knight Soup or Eldar Flyer Spam, I'd say we're gonna perform well against any army. But, really, it all boils down to composition (and to a lesser degree, luck) anyway. No Faction has just one type of composition, so saying "Orkz will always beat Space Marines," or something similar, is gonna be setting new players up for disappointment. Beat thing you can do is make a list that can handle a *variety* of different armies. And hope you don't go up against either of the lists I posted above.


I know you meant well with this post but it still doesn't answer the question. I'll try to ask it in a different way. You are entering the final round of a competitive tournament. You get to choose who your opponent was. Who would you prefer to be up against?

Personally I find that codex space marines has struggled the most against my Orks when I play against them.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/27 20:34:49


Post by: tneva82


Ditto. Vanilla codex marines. But then again those struggle a lot.

Grey knights would be even better. Those are so bad even index orks could table them. Only bolter rule change could help but not expecting that to be nearly enough.

But of course neither is going to be in top areas

(also at least here everybody plays same amount of rounds so you face those at last round if you are at the bottom areas anyway)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 01:38:56


Post by: flandarz


I'm just saying that just going: "I wanna fight Mono SM" is a bit faulty, because the lists are varied. Like, right now Eldar Flyer Spam is king, but an Eldar list without Flyers would be cake to beat. That said, yeah. Mono SM is probably our best match-up. Or Mono Slaaneshi.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 04:16:12


Post by: tneva82


Lists are varied but if even their top build is less scary than medium otier faction build...

Doubt gk can make truly scary anti ork build and any vanilla marine build is prefererable to all but mildest eldar builds. Well repulsor gives me personal headache


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 07:31:45


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Astartes actually do well against Orks in a competitive setting.
They have a higher win % against us than we do them.

Every 'faction' can make a list that Orks struggle to beat so the question is kind of flawed from the outset.

Nids would be a fun game though. Pure Nids without GSC that is. Daemons too. Both because they normally devolve into a cc slugfest so at least the games are entertaining.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 09:06:31


Post by: PiñaColada


So with Adepticon starting today, does anybody know who is running Orks? And what type of lists?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 10:13:44


Post by: hollow one


PiñaColada wrote:
So with Adepticon starting today, does anybody know who is running Orks? And what type of lists?
Yeah Nick N. bringing Orks again, added stormboyz in to compensate for the increase in flyers. Otherwise the same loota star and boyz/grots.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lot of people are talking about MANz being the new hotness. I'll expect to see a few 10-30 MANz lists out there. 15 Loota 15 tankbusta is becoming a thing. And obviously the relic SAG.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 10:27:22


Post by: PiñaColada


 hollow one wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
So with Adepticon starting today, does anybody know who is running Orks? And what type of lists?
Yeah Nick N. bringing Orks again, added stormboyz in to compensate for the increase in flyers. Otherwise the same loota star and boyz/grots.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lot of people are talking about MANz being the new hotness. I'll expect to see a few 10-30 MANz lists out there. 15 Loota 15 tankbusta is becoming a thing. And obviously the relic SAG.

Thanks! How many stormboyz, a blob of 30? What went away to make room for that, lootas/boyz? MANZ are a weird one to me, they don't stand out as being that good IMO (as in they're good but don't scream top tier) but hopefully they'll stream an Ork game or two and we can see some neat tricks in action.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 11:26:04


Post by: hollow one


He has a 9, 9, and 26 man squad of stormboyz. I don't remember his list well enough to know whats missing. I believe he brought a 3 man squad of MANz before, and maybe some kommandos but i'm pretty sure he took around the same amount of pure Boyz. But the core of 22 lootas and 90+ grots is still there. Some of his Nobz in his boyz squads are rocking 2xChoppa instead of bigger weapons (which I thought was interesting) and he used to go 2x mega armour warboss, but now he's splitting mega armor and biker warboss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and MANz are good for the same reason Lootas are good. You mob em up and spend CP on a unit that is too big for its own good. Imagine 30 MANz with warpath, da jump, and fighting twice.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 12:03:15


Post by: An Actual Englishman


The problem with MANZ is that they need to get into combat range to be effective. It’s unlikely/impossible that a player can get 30 MANZ into fighting range of any unit. Even with Da Jump. Clever positioning of the enemy around terrain can make this number quite low indeed in my experience.

Lootas will definitely fire with every member of their group if their target is in range.

It takes a lot of Storm Boyz to kill a flyer of any description. What am I missing on that? Sure they aren’t used for tying other, ground - based units?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 13:02:16


Post by: flandarz


I dunno. MANz can be really effective for sitting on Objectives and being hard to remove from them. If you get them in cover, it takes -2 AP to get them to a 3+. I ain't gonna say they're great in combat (that -1 to hit and low A hurts them), but taking potshots from cover while sitting on a Objective works fine. That's what I use em for.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 14:11:50


Post by: PiñaColada


Super-buffing MANZ seems to me like one of those things that are great in mathhammer but not practical in real games. I just feel like they can be pretty easily outmanoeuvred.

As I said, hope we get to see some Ork games as I'd happily be proven wrong (I love MANZ). I'm guessing Nicks stormboyz aren't meant to down enemy flyers primarily but rather to move up the field without risk being movement blocked by flying bases..


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 14:32:05


Post by: mhalko1


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Astartes actually do well against Orks in a competitive setting.
They have a higher win % against us than we do them.

Every 'faction' can make a list that Orks struggle to beat so the question is kind of flawed from the outset.

Nids would be a fun game though. Pure Nids without GSC that is. Daemons too. Both because they normally devolve into a cc slugfest so at least the games are entertaining.


I play nids quite frequently. I'm 2-1 against them so far. He typically uns 3 carnifexes with swarmlord flyrant and trygon. large unit of genestealers, neurothrope and venomthropes for -1 to hit. large unit of gaunts and small unit of rippers to cap objectives. The list gets mixed up now and then subbing things out but its usually something like this.

I focus on removing a couple big guys first. Carnifexes are easiest to kill. then I try to whittle the genestealers and gaunts down. I never focus swarmlord as it's 4++ then 3++ in CC is annoying.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 14:56:40


Post by: PiñaColada


Steve Pampreen (Orks) is facing Thousand sons on the warhammer tv twitch stream right now. Well, it's about to start any time now

Edit: Steve has 2 batallions and a brigade, jeez all them CPs


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 15:03:20


Post by: Vineheart01


2 batallions and a brigade? Im curious how the heck he pulled that one off.
7 HQ 12 Troops 3 Elite 3 FA 3 Heavy. That feels like its forced to be a green tide but then the elite/FA/heavy slots are...basically wasted slots as theyre limited to minimeks (cheap elite), single koptas (cheapest FA), and single mek Gunz (cheapest Heavy)
That, or talk about a lot of grots....


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 15:12:13


Post by: Jidmah


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
It takes a lot of Storm Boyz to kill a flyer of any description. What am I missing on that? Sure they aren’t used for tying other, ground - based units?


Storm boyz can't be blocked by flyers (one of the main reasons he lost to them in LVO), and you can use most of them to get into combat even faster, since their overwatch isn't likely to cause many casualties.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 15:18:56


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Yea I read the previous comment as 'kill flyers' not so much 'ignore their base'.

We'll see how he gets on here.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 17:29:26


Post by: PiñaColada


So unless I counted it all up incorrectly there are 258 players at that event and 27 of them are playing Orks (I might've made mistakes on amount of ork players since some say like evil sunz and not orks).

Assuming I'm correct that's roughly 10.5% of all players that chose to attend with Orks. Pretty good turnout rate, let's see if it translates!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 17:56:17


Post by: flaming tadpole


Should be interesting. The only matchup Nick struggled with at LVO was against the flyer spam so the stormboyz makes sense if nothing else than to be a threat. I'm guessing he just dropped a couple of his max boyz squads to fit them in so likely going with a more MSU style build. I'm partly torn wanting orks to do good because if they do GW might decide to completely ignore them for balance updates.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 19:37:41


Post by: G00fySmiley


 flaming tadpole wrote:
Should be interesting. The only matchup Nick struggled with at LVO was against the flyer spam so the stormboyz makes sense if nothing else than to be a threat. I'm guessing he just dropped a couple of his max boyz squads to fit them in so likely going with a more MSU style build. I'm partly torn wanting orks to do good because if they do GW might decide to completely ignore them for balance updates.


How many have buggies, worse case if the Orks do well. Hopefully GW sees how poorly they preform and do an adjustment to points from there. Its so sad the new awesome models got pointed so high for their performance


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 21:04:43


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 flaming tadpole wrote:
Should be interesting. The only matchup Nick struggled with at LVO was against the flyer spam so the stormboyz makes sense if nothing else than to be a threat. I'm guessing he just dropped a couple of his max boyz squads to fit them in so likely going with a more MSU style build. I'm partly torn wanting orks to do good because if they do GW might decide to completely ignore them for balance updates.


How many have buggies, worse case if the Orks do well. Hopefully GW sees how poorly they preform and do an adjustment to points from there. Its so sad the new awesome models got pointed so high for their performance

None of them lol. Hopefully GW see the lack of Buggies, Bikes and everything else that I personally like to take and realise that there's a problem, but I very much doubt it. I agree with tadpole, if Orks even do remotely well at an event they will be hailed as a balance success and GW will do nothing. The commentators all talk at Adepticon like we're an incredible army second only to IK+AM/Ynarri which concerns me because many of them are play-testers.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 21:14:28


Post by: PiñaColada


I almost sort of hope they nerf "Mob up" to only work on boyz so GW can see that Orks have just a handful of tricks keeping them in relevance. Loota bomb & the Super SAG are pulling a herculean load for competitive orks and that still means a ridiculous reliance on stratagems and can be negated as such.

Mechanised orks have almost nothing going for them at higher tiers excluding slot filling mek gunz (and biker warbosses if we count those). Hopefully they realise they're leaving some sales on the table and fix that.

That's also a thing that worries me in general, if they're looking at sales as a measuring stick then burnas are screwed since lootas are the same kit. But surely, even then, they realise that the burna datasheet is 12ppm worthy?

Edit: Nick N. facing Tony G., his LVO 2018 finalist opponent (and let's say controversial player), in game 3. Not on stream though



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 22:25:17


Post by: SemperMortis


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 flaming tadpole wrote:
Should be interesting. The only matchup Nick struggled with at LVO was against the flyer spam so the stormboyz makes sense if nothing else than to be a threat. I'm guessing he just dropped a couple of his max boyz squads to fit them in so likely going with a more MSU style build. I'm partly torn wanting orks to do good because if they do GW might decide to completely ignore them for balance updates.


How many have buggies, worse case if the Orks do well. Hopefully GW sees how poorly they preform and do an adjustment to points from there. Its so sad the new awesome models got pointed so high for their performance

None of them lol. Hopefully GW see the lack of Buggies, Bikes and everything else that I personally like to take and realise that there's a problem, but I very much doubt it. I agree with tadpole, if Orks even do remotely well at an event they will be hailed as a balance success and GW will do nothing. The commentators all talk at Adepticon like we're an incredible army second only to IK+AM/Ynarri which concerns me because many of them are play-testers.


That just cements my opinion that the "Playtesters" that GW uses are borderline incompetent when it comes to Orkz. Even getting over the moronic comments made by Reece about Stompa's and Killa Kanz being amazing, the fact remains that our entire codex can be boiled down to 2 things. Loota Bomb and Evil Sunz/Deepstriking units. Of those, the loota bomb is probably the most dangerous and it has several hard counters and numerous soft ones.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/28 23:15:27


Post by: An Actual Englishman


SemperMortis wrote:
That just cements my opinion that the "Playtesters" that GW uses are borderline incompetent when it comes to Orkz. Even getting over the moronic comments made by Reece about Stompa's and Killa Kanz being amazing, the fact remains that our entire codex can be boiled down to 2 things. Loota Bomb and Evil Sunz/Deepstriking units. Of those, the loota bomb is probably the most dangerous and it has several hard counters and numerous soft ones.


Indeed.

Add to that a relic SAG that (according to every podcast I listen to at least) "always rolls 5s and 6s and deletes everything on the table". It's insane.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 01:06:36


Post by: cody.d.


They do seem to cost things for "The best possible outcome." rather than the average result. Which hurts at times. Especially when you toss in ork BS. (WHY COULDN"T THEY GIVE MEKS GITFINDERS AGAIN!)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 01:35:48


Post by: SemperMortis


cody.d. wrote:
They do seem to cost things for "The best possible outcome." rather than the average result. Which hurts at times. Especially when you toss in ork BS. (WHY COULDN"T THEY GIVE MEKS GITFINDERS AGAIN!)


The Relic SAG requires you to purchase a USELESS detachment. So right off the bat its costing you CP. The actual SAG rolls on average 7 shots at S7. 7 Shots with rerolling 1s and exploding 6s yields you about 3 hits. At S7 against most vehicles that is 1.5 wounds so that is about 5-6damage on average a turn. So it does decent damage, of course you throw in a single -1 to hit and all of the sudden its cut in half.

But that has been a thing with orkz forever. Look at the old SAG table from 4th and 7th. The vast majority of the rolls you could get were actively a bad thing with only 1 being a good thing. Same thing can be said for Looted vehicles from back in the day, the big red button had no upside whatsoever and they didn't compensate for that negative by making the vehicles better or cheaper, actually if you used the older rules for Looted vehicles it was just a crappier version of an enemy vehicle.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 07:09:39


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Unfortunately we're putting in a pretty good showing at Adepticon, which means we're less and less likely to have any of our underperforming units touched any time soon.

Am I correct in that there are no chess clocks and they don't use the standard ITC format?

The scoring seems seems odd and I believe it is helping keeping us in the high placings.

Also are the assassin index rules used because I've seen a fair few Imperial lists with an assassin taken stock?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 07:46:44


Post by: PiñaColada


Assassins are old rules at adepticon still & I don't believe they use chess clocks. They are using custom ITC missions that seem at bit wonky to me when I looked at them, but to be fair so would normal ITC missions if I didn't know about them.

I'm personally happy "we're" doing well there. I'd wager that every list in the top 16 is a deviation of what we saw doing okay at LVO though. Meaning hopefully we still get wargear drops for overcosted equipment and point drops for units that aren't taken at all (buggies etc)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 08:26:54


Post by: An Actual Englishman


If we do even remotely well I doubt we'll see any changes whatsoever.

Yea I have yet to see a list using warbikes or buggies. Every list I have seen has index options and relies on Lootas/Souped up SAG Mek.

It's a variation on the same themes - Boyz, Grots, Lootas, Weird boy, Bike boss and SAG Mek. If a brigade is taken - Deffkoptas are used with Big Shootas for FA, Smasha Guns feature for heavy support (makes sense) and min kommandos are normally the elite choice, often with Grotsnik.

A few lists have Mork/Gorkanaut. Some have Meganobz.

That's about it. I'd be very surprised if GW looks at that and thinks Orks need any changes. I can almost hear the discussion now: "But look, they're taking brigades! That's means all of their slots are fine!"


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 08:38:39


Post by: PiñaColada


Well let's hope we can give GW a bit more credit than that haha.

I'm personally a big proponent of changing the entire CP system as I hate the concept of slot fillers, some are fine but when half the units on the board are slot fillers then it's starting to become silly IMO. But that's a discussion for another time.

Is there any way of searching through all the lists for specific units or is that something we can hope to get statistics for after the event?

I still think those eliminators with mortis rounds are going to be gamechangers for armies like Orks when they start hitting the tables. Just sniping weirdboyz out of LoS to deny da jump etc.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 09:05:10


Post by: Jidmah


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I read the previous comment as 'kill flyers' not so much 'ignore their base'.

We'll see how he gets on here.


People who suggest storm boyz are a good way to kill fliers have never tried doing that

Heck, even those fabled 30 skarboys standing next to Thrakka would have trouble taking down most vehicles in one turn, how are stormboyz supposed to do that...


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 09:48:20


Post by: tneva82


Well 30 stormboyz at least average dark eldar flier.

But yeah point isn't to kill but to ensure you can actually go somewhere rather than be roadblocked by flier.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 09:53:50


Post by: PiñaColada


tneva82 wrote:
Well 30 stormboyz at least average dark eldar flier.

But yeah point isn't to kill but to ensure you can actually go somewhere rather than be roadblocked by flier.

Assuming you get everyone in, which could easily not be the case. Also, isn't one of those fliers like 135 points? But yeah, avoiding those movement blocking shenanigans might be worth the price of entry.

I still hope supersonic fliers become max 3 at 2000 points. It lets you have an airwing, that feels like it's enough IMO. That 7 flier list at LVO is just anti-fun taken to an extreme.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 09:56:20


Post by: Jidmah


PiñaColada wrote:
I still think those eliminators with mortis rounds are going to be gamechangers for armies like Orks when they start hitting the tables. Just sniping weirdboyz out of LoS to deny da jump etc.


Mortis Round
Heavy 1 36" S4 Ap-1 D1
This weapon can target units which are not visible to the firer. Add 2 to the hit rolls made for this weapon. Units do not receive the benefit of cover to their saving throws against attacks made by this weapons.


Maximum 3x3 shots of them per army, so hitting on 2+ is 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 damage vs 6+ armor, 2.5 damage vs 4+ armor, 1.25 vs mega armour and 1.66 damage vs characters on bikes. Also 36" means being out of range isn't unlikely.

So, with some support characters they might be able to one-shot a weird boy which is not protected by KFF or pain boyz.

Remember how weirdboyz were considered useless when the castellan missile stratagem was revealed? I think this is similar, the sky is not falling.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 10:00:06


Post by: PiñaColada


 Jidmah wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I still think those eliminators with mortis rounds are going to be gamechangers for armies like Orks when they start hitting the tables. Just sniping weirdboyz out of LoS to deny da jump etc.


Mortis Round
Heavy 1 36" S4 Ap-1 D1
This weapon can target units which are not visible to the firer. Add 2 to the hit rolls made for this weapon. Units do not receive the benefit of cover to their saving throws against attacks made by this weapons.


Maximum 3x3 shots of them per army, so hitting on 2+ is 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 damage vs 6+ armor, 2.5 damage vs 4+ armor, 1.25 vs mega armour and 1.66 damage vs characters on bikes. Also 36" means being out of range isn't unlikely.

So, with some support characters they might be able to one-shot a weird boy which is not protected by KFF or pain boyz.

Remember how weirdboyz were considered useless when the castellan missile stratagem was revealed? I think this is similar, the sky is not falling.

Maybe, but any wound taken on a weirdboy is pretty bad since it means they can now die from perils. Also, that round gives a +2 to hit, so the snipers can move forward 6" and still fire at BS2+, meaning the threat range is 42". Also, since it's SM it's probably fair to assume they're in some sort of reroll bubble, either for hits or wounds.

I'm still fearful of 2 squads of eliminators coupled with a vindicare or two. We'll see if this ends up being a problem or not I suppose.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 10:08:21


Post by: Jidmah


tneva82 wrote:
Well 30 stormboyz at least average dark eldar flier.


Not if it's a black heart fliers, which it will be since they want access to the vect stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote:
Maybe, but any wound taken on a weirdboy is pretty bad since it means they can now die from perils. Also, that round gives a +2 to hit, so the snipers can move forward 6" and still fire at BS2+, meaning the threat range is 42". Also, since it's SM it's probably fair to assume they're in some sort of reroll bubble, either for hits or wounds.


Moving into position and staying inside re-roll bubbles kind of exclude each other for space marines. Their captains also tend to be on the front hammerings stuff, not near your snipers.

I'm still fearful of 2 squads of eliminators coupled with a vindicare or two. We'll see if this ends up being a problem or not I suppose.

The vindicare is dangerous because it's a character, reliably hits and wounds whatever it is shooting. Put a pain boy near your weird boy and you can pretty much ignore mortis rounds.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 13:41:43


Post by: russellmoo


When it comes to flyers Zaggstrukk does very well and would have been a solution if not for him being locked into the Goff kultur


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 13:55:57


Post by: SemperMortis


30 Stormboyz, if they all magically get into combat with a flyer do 90 attacks, 60 hits and against T5+ they do 20 wounds. Against a 3+ save that is 7ish wounds. In all likelihood though, you will never get more than a handful into combat and will be lucky to strip 2-3 wounds off a flyer in CC.

As for having faith in GW.....when they earn a bit of faith i'll give it to them. At the moment though I have a biker horde, Deff Kopta horde, 3 new buggies, 3 trukkz, 12 killakanz, 2 dreadz, 6 meganobz and a plethora of Nobz collecting dust on my shelf because they can't be fielded in a competitive game.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 14:15:16


Post by: flandarz


I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 14:33:48


Post by: PiñaColada


 flandarz wrote:
I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.

Let's not give them any ideas haha!

Honestly, if they consider the loota bomb to be too good then removing the ability to mob up lootas would solve that IMO. Buffing 15 is nowhere near the same as buffing 22-25. Obviously it's crazy if they nerf lootas and not nerf bat some IK as well then (alongside Ynnari, but that might all be in the May WD and not April FAQ).

If they wanna up the point cost of smasha guns a bit, then fine. I wouldn't riot if they went to 35-40 points total.

The SAG mek is weird because he's terrible without the dread waaagh, so nerfing him would be crazy. If they wanted to do anything there, it should be changing what "kustom ammo" does as I don't really think any army should more than one way of shooting units twice.

If they did all that -and- fixed the units on the other end of the spectrum I'd be completely fine with it. But man do we have some stuff needing love right now. Honestly I wonder how Orks would do if GW suddenly said: No more index options and boyz/stormboyz/kommandos etc need to be on 32's from here on in.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 15:06:29


Post by: SemperMortis


PiñaColada wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.

Let's not give them any ideas haha!

Honestly, if they consider the loota bomb to be too good then removing the ability to mob up lootas would solve that IMO. Buffing 15 is nowhere near the same as buffing 22-25. Obviously it's crazy if they nerf lootas and not nerf bat some IK as well then (alongside Ynnari, but that might all be in the May WD and not April FAQ).

If they wanna up the point cost of smasha guns a bit, then fine. I wouldn't riot if they went to 35-40 points total.

The SAG mek is weird because he's terrible without the dread waaagh, so nerfing him would be crazy. If they wanted to do anything there, it should be changing what "kustom ammo" does as I don't really think any army should more than one way of shooting units twice.

If they did all that -and- fixed the units on the other end of the spectrum I'd be completely fine with it. But man do we have some stuff needing love right now. Honestly I wonder how Orks would do if GW suddenly said: No more index options and boyz/stormboyz/kommandos etc need to be on 32's from here on in.


honestly, I will be surprised if Orkz don't get nerfed a bit. You have to remember the mindset of the majority fan base. For years...literally over a decade, every time a SM player ran into an Ork player they thought "Easy Win" and 9 times out of 10 they were right. So now that SMs are arguably not top tier anymore and Orkz have gotten a small boost to be about mid tier those same SM Fanboys are losing more then ever to armies they used to win against easily. I have literally seen SM players use Orkz winning against them as a metric to prove they need a buff.

Which is scarier in a tournament, the Loyal 32 with a Castellan or 20 Lootas hiding behind 90 grotz? Which is scarier, a bunch of eldar flyers with -2 to hit or a Big Mek with relic SAG who hits about 3 times a turn with S7? The issue is that by any metric orkz are mid tier at best but we have units that are carrying us to that level and other players hate the fact that their shiny toys get killed before they get to annihilate 100-120 Orkz. Those Mek guns are trash, I literally don't bring any because its easy Kill Points to my opponent and they honestly don't do that much damage, Loota bombs and Relic sags I bring but honestly those are distraction carnifexs as my real stopping power is in the form of a stupid strong BETA strike from 60-90 Boyz and some Bonebreaker wagons deepstriking turn 2.

I expect Lootas to get hit with the nerf bat hard, either a points increase or making them unable to use stratagems or specific strats like grot shields or shoot twice. I expect the Relic SAG to stay the same or at the most get a points increase on the Big Mek and I expect the Mek gunz to be made useless.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 16:19:09


Post by: mhalko1


SemperMortis wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.

Let's not give them any ideas haha!

Honestly, if they consider the loota bomb to be too good then removing the ability to mob up lootas would solve that IMO. Buffing 15 is nowhere near the same as buffing 22-25. Obviously it's crazy if they nerf lootas and not nerf bat some IK as well then (alongside Ynnari, but that might all be in the May WD and not April FAQ).

If they wanna up the point cost of smasha guns a bit, then fine. I wouldn't riot if they went to 35-40 points total.

The SAG mek is weird because he's terrible without the dread waaagh, so nerfing him would be crazy. If they wanted to do anything there, it should be changing what "kustom ammo" does as I don't really think any army should more than one way of shooting units twice.

If they did all that -and- fixed the units on the other end of the spectrum I'd be completely fine with it. But man do we have some stuff needing love right now. Honestly I wonder how Orks would do if GW suddenly said: No more index options and boyz/stormboyz/kommandos etc need to be on 32's from here on in.




honestly, I will be surprised if Orkz don't get nerfed a bit. You have to remember the mindset of the majority fan base. For years...literally over a decade, every time a SM player ran into an Ork player they thought "Easy Win" and 9 times out of 10 they were right. So now that SMs are arguably not top tier anymore and Orkz have gotten a small boost to be about mid tier those same SM Fanboys are losing more then ever to armies they used to win against easily. I have literally seen SM players use Orkz winning against them as a metric to prove they need a buff.

Which is scarier in a tournament, the Loyal 32 with a Castellan or 20 Lootas hiding behind 90 grotz? Which is scarier, a bunch of eldar flyers with -2 to hit or a Big Mek with relic SAG who hits about 3 times a turn with S7? The issue is that by any metric orkz are mid tier at best but we have units that are carrying us to that level and other players hate the fact that their shiny toys get killed before they get to annihilate 100-120 Orkz. Those Mek guns are trash, I literally don't bring any because its easy Kill Points to my opponent and they honestly don't do that much damage, Loota bombs and Relic sags I bring but honestly those are distraction carnifexs as my real stopping power is in the form of a stupid strong BETA strike from 60-90 Boyz and some Bonebreaker wagons deepstriking turn 2.

I expect Lootas to get hit with the nerf bat hard, either a points increase or making them unable to use stratagems or specific strats like grot shields or shoot twice. I expect the Relic SAG to stay the same or at the most get a points increase on the Big Mek and I expect the Mek gunz to be made useless.


Not to mention that they have the majority of the players, they will also be the ones having the most submissions into the GW rules team realistically. I recently heard a few comments about how great ork shooting is now and it's not fair, they shouldnt shoot that well. Their shooting isn't even good it's 2 units that make it look good.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 17:25:56


Post by: PiñaColada


Okay, looks like Nick N is out.

We do have Bryan Hancock with 178/200 points (7th) &
Bilbo baggings (Pampreen I think) with 174/200 points (8th)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 18:27:33


Post by: An Actual Englishman


According to my BCP app we have 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th positions

Carnage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the SAG Mek takes a hit, I've just started painting mine so sods' law.

The Souped Up Shokka is a victim of the fact that everyone only remembers the time it 'did 10 wounds to a Castellan' or 'destroyed a Leman Russ in one go' and not the myriad of times it does literally nothing. It's swingy, which is a problem for GW IMO. They should've given it a higher min Str (5+D6?) and a lower number of shots (3+D6?) IMO.

One thing I really wouldn't be surprised about seeing nerfed is Grot Shields. That's the problem child. Lootas and the SS SAG Mek are weaksauce without their ablative wounds. Make that harder to pull off/more expensive and we'll better see where their true value lies.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 18:54:36


Post by: G00fySmiley


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
According to my BCP app we have 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th positions

Carnage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the SAG Mek takes a hit, I've just started painting mine so sods' law.

The Souped Up Shokka is a victim of the fact that everyone only remembers the time it 'did 10 wounds to a Castellan' or 'destroyed a Leman Russ in one go' and not the myriad of times it does literally nothing. It's swingy, which is a problem for GW IMO. They should've given it a higher min Str (5+D6?) and a lower number of shots (3+D6?) IMO.

One thing I really wouldn't be surprised about seeing nerfed is Grot Shields. That's the problem child. Lootas and the SS SAG Mek are weaksauce without their ablative wounds. Make that harder to pull off/more expensive and we'll better see where their true value lies.


I feel like it is the same thing with most of out Units. I have had lootas fail to take out even a single marine in a turn and have had them take out a full health Leman Russ. its swingy with d3 shots and hitting 1/3 with exploding 6's... I mean I get it, its hard to balance that but to that I would ask why not remove some of the rqndomness. Like SAG heavy 4 str d6+4 (relic SAG heavy 7 or 8), or loota gun heavy 2 so its got a consistent amount and not pointed like we will get 6 or 12 shots on a SAG and 3 on a loota.

another thought on lootas would be d3 per model as it should help with averages, problem now is one dice determining the performance of such an expensive unit.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 21:39:55


Post by: Vineheart01


yeah the entire dex is swingy, but priced like it always works.

How are grot shields a problem? Really all they protect are characters from snipers and lootas. Since our characters are walking tissuepaper unlike other army's characters, they cant even attempt to shrug off the snipers that usually dont have high AP anyway, i dont see the problem. And lootas are horrifically overpriced if you dont factor grot shields as since they dont have a standard save via cover anymore they will die to a stiff breeze, nevermind also massively swingy.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 21:53:40


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I'd prefer they had a fairer price and better armour save personally.

Grot Shields is a problem because it denies interaction from the opponent and as you say units are priced ad if its a given. Although saying that its the only real purpose for Grots, outside of taking up space and being cheap troops.

Its a tough one.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/29 23:46:34


Post by: r_squared


First game using both freebootas and the super shokka and feth me, it's broken.

I felt bad for my OP, as this beast pretty much deleted a unit a turn without breaking a sweat combined with the freeboota +1, more dakka, grot screens and Big killa Boss. Something that hits so hard, every turn I fired it, that cannot be targeted except by snipers, and even then had grot screens to protect it, is something I'd not like to face myself.

I know it has detractors, but from what I've seen today, I'll only be bringing this beast in competitive games, or against people who have wronged me.

I can definitely see the potential of Freebootas, I'd been sceptical, but having played it, that plus 1 to hit is fething brilliant.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 02:02:46


Post by: SemperMortis


 r_squared wrote:
First game using both freebootas and the super shokka and feth me, it's broken.

I felt bad for my OP, as this beast pretty much deleted a unit a turn without breaking a sweat combined with the freeboota +1, more dakka, grot screens and Big killa Boss. Something that hits so hard, every turn I fired it, that cannot be targeted except by snipers, and even then had grot screens to protect it, is something I'd not like to face myself.

I know it has detractors, but from what I've seen today, I'll only be bringing this beast in competitive games, or against people who have wronged me.

I can definitely see the potential of Freebootas, I'd been sceptical, but having played it, that plus 1 to hit is fething brilliant.


anecdotal evidence is anecdotal

The Super Sag averages 7 shots at S7 hitting on 5s with exploding 6s. So you average 2 actual hits and 1.17 rerolls for a .4ish chance of another hit so 2.4 hits. 2.4 hits at S7 vs most vehicles is 1.2 wounds which do D6 damage for 3.5 a turn. so 1.2x3.5 = 4.2 damage, now these numbers are rough averages but that is how it works out. The swingy chances of this weapon is what makes it either a dud or a nuke. Roll high on Shots (10) and 8+ for strength and roll above average for number of hits and suddenly you are dishing out 12-18damage a turn. on the flipside, roll poorly for number of shots and you might get nothing.

I personally love my super SAG because it has a chance to liquify opponents, but its not exactly god caliber and it absolutely isn't on the same level as say a Knight Castellan or the loyal 32, which for some reason have gone several iterations without a nerf.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 02:12:54


Post by: flandarz


I agree with Semper. The Supee SAG is nice and all, but it's definitely not a game winner by itself. Even in Freebooterz, when you got a better chance of hitting, wiping a "unit" a turn with just a Super SAG is highly unlikely. I've run FBs, and, realistically, your Smashaz are still doing the heavy lifting in the list. Assuming your opponent don't wipe them.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 02:59:02


Post by: flaming tadpole


Great now that we had like 4 ork players place in the top10 GW is probably gonna stiff us with balance changes. Feelsbad


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 03:28:56


Post by: Billagio


I must be missing something. If were doing well in a tournament....isnt that a good thing? Also, Adepticon is going to have no impact on the FAQ since thats already been written.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 03:53:55


Post by: Vineheart01


Question i have is is the core of these ork lists still boy spam?
Boy spam has always been decent, but boring as feth.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 04:42:09


Post by: flaming tadpole


 Vineheart01 wrote:
Question i have is is the core of these ork lists still boy spam?
Boy spam has always been decent, but boring as feth.
3 out of the top 4 were boys/grots spam ya. One of the top 10 players ran a gorka, morka, loota, grot spam list with zero boys so there's that at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side the top ork player beat the top eldar flying circus player. What a friggin legend.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 08:36:56


Post by: Emicrania


Man some of you are never gonna be happy.
LVO, no orks top 10= the orks are bad
Adepticon= 4 orks top 10, GW is bad they will never make orks good.
Jezuz....


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 08:53:36


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Its great that there's 4 Orks in the top 10 at Adepticon.

It just concerns me when people use this to justify their false beliefs that Orks are top tier (as I've already seen from various posters here and elsewhere).

Adepticon has its own very unique ruleset that happens to suit the most competitive Ork list. It also played without the new Assassin rules and obviously had none of the new SM or CSM stuff from Shadow spear and beyond.

So its not really a good measure of anything, by itself.

And I've still yet to see a single new buggy or bike taken competitively. Or Deffdreads, or Kills kans, or Burnas.

Finally - each and every competitive Ork list leans heavily into index options and exploits (free kopta bomms anyone) that will disappear sooner or later.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 09:07:46


Post by: PiñaColada


I'm really happy Orks managed to get something on the board. a 3rd place for Orks isn't bad. It should be noted that Pampreen wouldn't have gotten into the top 16 even at LVO with the same results as he posted here though (since at LVO you get 1000points for a victory in addition to your score, meaning it'll only be the victors facing off at the end).

The biggest thing I want fixed with Orks for the FAQ are on the toyz, not boyz side. Big shootas, supa shootas, power klaws, killsaws, cyborks etc. And then actual mechanised stuff which apart from the nauts and some slot-filling mek gunz aren't taken at all.

It's cool boyz spam plus loota bomb and super SAG is viable. I mean anecdotally there were plent of Ork lists in the top 16 and plenty dropped off after that so it might be a case of that list will beat almost anything but struggle against elite lists.

In any case that's a pretty tame list (in regards to models ) IMO, not many datasheets used and pretty similar to how orks were played pre-codex. That sort of indicates a codex not doing its job IMO, as the book should've opened up new avenues for us Orks. Also GW probably wanted that since most ork players have all the boyz they ever need but few of the buggies & other niche units.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 09:20:49


Post by: Jidmah


It's pretty much the same for almost every army though. Is there any codex that has more than one list doing well at tournaments?

I'd also appreciate more talk about orks in the game and less tinfoil hat talk about how GW will nerf orks into the ground because they/space marine players hate them. Right now, there is zero reason to believe that orks will be treated different than any other faction.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 09:36:54


Post by: PiñaColada


That's fair, most armies only have one viable build (that allows for some individual tinkering of course)

My point is more along the lines of that the Ork list hasn't changed all that much from pre- to post codex. In and out of itself that might not be so strange but it means that the new units that dropped for Orks are not represented at all on any competitive tables. Surely that's pretty uncommon?

You can argue that intercessors sucked when they came out, but they did change them and they're pretty good now. Meaning they were corrected with points in CA/FAQ.

What other new models did they release for 40k in 2018?
IK - doing super well.
Custodes - predominantly biker & shield captain spam, but doing well overall.

I'm probably forgetting something, but the ork speed freek units not being good even though they're new models is the exception and not the norm IMO (also ork bikes shouldn't cost more than SM ones). If they fixed that and create some sort of parity with other codices when it comes to wargear then that's a real good start.

Even if the end result is still that the lists we saw here are the best builds there still a lot of room for improvement, and closing the gap internally within a codex is more important than raising the highest bar I think.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 09:55:33


Post by: Jidmah


Most of the primaris stuff saw next to top tournament play until it went through multiple iterations of point drops.
Out of all the new death guard units, only three were showing up at tournaments before price drops.

I think most of the ork buggies do what they are intended to do, so unlike burnas for example, they are not fundamentally flawed units. Price drops could very well put them into competitive territory. Similar DG units have dropped by 20-40 points.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 10:09:59


Post by: PiñaColada


 Jidmah wrote:
Most of the primaris stuff saw next to top tournament play until it went through multiple iterations of point drops.
Out of all the new death guard units, only three were showing up at tournaments before price drops.

I think most of the ork buggies do what they are intended to do, so unlike burnas for example, they are not fundamentally flawed units. Price drops could very well put them into competitive territory. Similar DG units have dropped by 20-40 points.

Agreed, just dropping points on them will be enough, as their statline & wargear has serious potential. I do love that 8/9 wound since they never degrade.

Also, I might've been unclear in my previous post, I don't mean that anything new GW releases gets good rules right off the bat. I merely meant thatafter a while, they all seem to end up being good/great units. So maybe it'll take more than one iteration of point changes but I still feel like they're going to be getting point drops in the FAQ (assuming Orks get anything at all there).


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 15:51:52


Post by: r_squared


SemperMortis wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
First game using both freebootas and the super shokka and feth me, it's broken.

I felt bad for my OP, as this beast pretty much deleted a unit a turn without breaking a sweat combined with the freeboota +1, more dakka, grot screens and Big killa Boss. Something that hits so hard, every turn I fired it, that cannot be targeted except by snipers, and even then had grot screens to protect it, is something I'd not like to face myself.

I know it has detractors, but from what I've seen today, I'll only be bringing this beast in competitive games, or against people who have wronged me.

I can definitely see the potential of Freebootas, I'd been sceptical, but having played it, that plus 1 to hit is fething brilliant.


anecdotal evidence is anecdotal

The Super Sag averages 7 shots at S7 hitting on 5s with exploding 6s. So you average 2 actual hits and 1.17 rerolls for a .4ish chance of another hit so 2.4 hits. 2.4 hits at S7 vs most vehicles is 1.2 wounds which do D6 damage for 3.5 a turn. so 1.2x3.5 = 4.2 damage, now these numbers are rough averages but that is how it works out. The swingy chances of this weapon is what makes it either a dud or a nuke. Roll high on Shots (10) and 8+ for strength and roll above average for number of hits and suddenly you are dishing out 12-18damage a turn. on the flipside, roll poorly for number of shots and you might get nothing.

I personally love my super SAG because it has a chance to liquify opponents, but its not exactly god caliber and it absolutely isn't on the same level as say a Knight Castellan or the loyal 32, which for some reason have gone several iterations without a nerf.


Mathammer is great and all, but I've played it, and it felt broken. With the right setup, and the right strategems you are deleting a unit a turn. If you're using this to take out vehicles and knights then big killa boss is a must to counter those low strength rolls.

My Op is a veteran player, and we were chucking some dice in a beer and pretzels game, but he is fantastic at building some really tricksy strong lists for a variety of armies and we regularly go toe to toe with full on lists and we discussed the Super shocka at length. We decided that the clutch part isn't just the 2d6, it's the fact that it's on a character that really makes it effective. The access to warlord traits is a real bonus, and even with scouts snipers my OP could not touch this killing machine. If the SSAG was on a vehicle, it'd be so so, on a character, in the backfield, correctly screened, it's broken.

For the points? I'd take 2 more SAG Big Meks to complement the SSAG, at 80pts a go, once the Super shokka lights up its first target, you can guarantee your ops target priority is changing.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 16:13:10


Post by: tneva82


Anecdotal evidence is great and all but luck is still luck and human remembers exceptional results more often than average so it feeling broken doesn't mean it's broken. Human mind remembers exceptional results better so it's easy to remember that time it one shots knight(7% chance) but not as much when you do like 3-4 damage to it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 17:12:04


Post by: flandarz


Even with Command Reroll, Moar Dakka, and Freebooterz, I still can't see how you'd reliably delete a unit with a Super SAG every turn. It just doesn't have the shots for it. Unless you're specifically talking about vehicles/monsters, but even then he's gonna need some back-up.

With the above Strats, you're looking at around 8-9 shots, on average. With a 4+ BS (from Freebooters) you're only gonna land around half of those. So, like 4 shots. Against T4, with Big Killa, you'll have a 2+, so let's say you get lucky and they all Wound. Your 4 that made it through won't even take out an MSU of Guardsmen. Against a vehicle, the average Toughness is around a 6, so you'll be looking at 3+ instead, for 3 going through to Saves. Let's say the vehicle *doesn't* have a Invuln or FnP, so you deal 10-11 or so Wounds. Sure, that's plenty to take out most vehicles. But, in the end, you spent 3 CP on it.

Even if we take into account Kustom Ammo, which will cost you a total of 5 CP (with all the other stuff) to use, the Super SAG is still *barely* handling an MSU of Guard, and maybe taking out two middling vehicles, or a single better one. All for the low, low cost of an entire Battalion's worth of CP. I wouldn't call this "reliably" taking out a unit every turn, at least not if you plan for the game to last longer than 2 turns.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 17:19:06


Post by: tneva82


 flandarz wrote:
Even with Command Reroll, Moar Dakka, and Freebooterz, I still can't see how you'd reliably delete a unit with a Super SAG every turn. It just doesn't have the shots for it. Unless you're specifically talking about vehicles/monsters, but even then he's gonna need some back-up.


Certainly average damage should be enough to wipe vehicle per turn(seeing average vs knight is about 8 and that's with 5++ and 5+++ vs mortals) but of course with SAG issue is huge variance of damage. The average goes up nicely when you can cause 24 wounds and not be wasted...So yeah average damage is enough to vaporize leman russ but in practice there will be turns where you don't. And then one where you would wipe 3 but as the wounds don't spread...

And obviously it's not wiping infantry Then again it's not really anti infantry weapon any more than the volcano lance on the castellan. But castellan IS quite reliably vaporizing 2 vehicles a turn with firepower to spare. While sporting 4++, h2h ability etc. Albeit is free to be shot as well.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 17:24:16


Post by: Vineheart01


Delete a light vehicle per turn with the SSAG is believable. Anything tougher, average dice doesnt kill it (though leaves it in a really sorry state).
Anything with numbers? Even stuff like elite troopers where theres only ~10 of them? Unlikely. Hurt, yes, wipe them? no.

Knight Soup/Eldar Flier spam is a thing and people just accept it as something you need to deal with specifically. Orks get 1 model that uses a warlord trait and 2 CP thats powerful and everyone thinks its OP and needs a nerf....right...


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 18:19:30


Post by: flandarz


Yeah, that's what I meant. The Super SAG *can* reliably take out a light vehicle every turn. But "unit" is incredibly misleading, cuz unless your opponent is running Eldar or Tau (or leaving his/her vehicles in LoS), you probably ain't gonna have a bead on a light vehicle every turn. Either they won't have that many targets for you, or they're gonna hide them from the Super SAG.

As an aside: there is actually a non-zero chance that an MSU of Grots could take down a Castellan in a single shooting phase. So, basically, basing how powerful a unit/model is, based on specific alignment of factors, is poor decision making. I ain't saying the Super SAG ain't good. It just ain't this OP unit that wipes everything it sees.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 18:24:59


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 r_squared wrote:
Mathammer is great and all, but I've played it, and it felt broken. With the right setup, and the right strategems you are deleting a unit a turn. If you're using this to take out vehicles and knights then big killa boss is a must to counter those low strength rolls.

My Op is a veteran player, and we were chucking some dice in a beer and pretzels game, but he is fantastic at building some really tricksy strong lists for a variety of armies and we regularly go toe to toe with full on lists and we discussed the Super shocka at length. We decided that the clutch part isn't just the 2d6, it's the fact that it's on a character that really makes it effective. The access to warlord traits is a real bonus, and even with scouts snipers my OP could not touch this killing machine. If the SSAG was on a vehicle, it'd be so so, on a character, in the backfield, correctly screened, it's broken.

For the points? I'd take 2 more SAG Big Meks to complement the SSAG, at 80pts a go, once the Super shokka lights up its first target, you can guarantee your ops target priority is changing.

I'm sure it did feel broken. But that's exactly what anecdotal evidence is - feelings. Unfortunately feelings don't mean much when we have stats.

Come back to us in a week or 2 when you've had that one game where the SSAG just refuses to hit, or when you do hit it's with S2-4 shots, or when your opponent lands all their saves. You'll see where we're coming from.

You're not "deleting a unit a turn" unless you are incredibly lucky every turn.

Re the character protection, I suggest you wait until your OP manages to sneak a few Vindicares into his list. Or any other counter to the SSAG Mek (Deep Strike melee units, flyers).

The average damage for the weapon is incredibly low, even with BKB, but you're just remembering the big hits.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 18:51:32


Post by: flandarz


Last game I played with the Super SAG, the very first roll I got was for S11. Then I rolled 4 shots (after command reroll) and no hits. It was very disappointing. After that, he played adequately, but never took anything out in his own. Most of the time, my Smashas would soften something up and then the Super SAG would take it down.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 19:04:47


Post by: PiñaColada


I've played maybe 25ish games with the supa SAG mek, although 10-15 of them have been between 1000-1500 points and the rest at 1750 (which is what most people play here).

Overall he's done well, it's rare that he ends up doing nothing but it's happened. I've also had a few games where he single handedly took out 750+ points (a baneblade plus some just random tanks in one, and another game where he rolled 11+ strength 4 times in a row). It can happen and he's absolutely really strong. But he's still vulnerable enough to take out in several different manners and I don't see him as being broken.

Snipers in general can screw him up for sure but psychic powers that don't have to target the nearest unit are a big weapon against him. Obviously the abslute best way is to kill him in CC so "Orkz is never beaten" is basically useless. That might be tougher though depending on the Ork list used, for me I usually only have him and some grots in the backfield so an evrsor managed to consolidate into him once. I didn't know they did a 6" rather than a 3" consolidate move and he could scale up two floors to tie him up then.

Point is, even with a dud game or two, I still feel he is one of those "auto-take" units for me unless the game is really casual or I'm facing a horde. Still don't see the broken argument however. He's really good value, but also a highlander.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 19:12:28


Post by: tneva82


 flandarz wrote:
Last game I played with the Super SAG, the very first roll I got was for S11. Then I rolled 4 shots (after command reroll) and no hits. It was very disappointing. After that, he played adequately, but never took anything out in his own. Most of the time, my Smashas would soften something up and then the Super SAG would take it down.


Personally I would start with SAG without good reason as it does have potential to vaporize vehicle on it's own. Don't want to shoot smashas and then get lucky and overkill the target. Starting with sag if you do take it out you can shoot elsewhere with smashas or use those to finish the target. Could be wrong though.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 20:15:55


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
It's pretty much the same for almost every army though. Is there any codex that has more than one list doing well at tournaments?

I'd also appreciate more talk about orks in the game and less tinfoil hat talk about how GW will nerf orks into the ground because they/space marine players hate them. Right now, there is zero reason to believe that orks will be treated different than any other faction.


*Looks at Basic infantry choice for Orkz going up 17%
*Sees literally nobody else having this happen to them



It isn't so much "Tinfoil hat talk" as it is verifiable fact that orkz tend to have their better units nerfed far more often then units that really need a nerf (*Cough Castellan, Loyal 32, Eldar Shenanigans *cough). In 7th one of our better units was the warbiker, when was the last time someone took out warbikers for a tournament and really was trying to win? how about Trukk Boy spam? Then from Index to Codex, our best unit without a doubt, boyz, got hit with a points increase but our atrociously priced Stompa is still......atrociously over priced.

I don't know about adepticon because I didn't read their specific rules, but if they didn't go full ITC rule set then yeah it might not have any value added to this discussion. BTW I say that because in my META everyone plays ITC.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 20:19:23


Post by: flandarz


I generally start with with Gunz, because I run Freebooterz. I want my Super SAG to get that sweet +1 to hit. So I wipe some MSU or other easy to kill thing, then fire whatever else I have at harder to take down targets.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 20:32:15


Post by: SemperMortis


Generally speaking, with my SSAG I target something important that my opponent forgot to protect because he doesn't worry about ork shooting. I had a game a few weeks ago where my opponent put two IG flyers in range and LOS of my SSAG and i got 1st turn, well guess what happened to those things. spent CP to dakka on 5s, spent CP to shoot twice, rolled 8+ for shots and strength both times and liquified both his planes and killed a huge part of his passengers with Boyz before charging and finishing them off. Game was over turn 2 because he had run out of vehicles besides 2 Tank commanders hiding in the back.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 20:38:22


Post by: Vineheart01


That i think is the capital issue: "my opponent forgot to protect an important model because he doesnt worry about ork shooting"

Thats such an old mentality that until now would be valid and usually a safe assumption. Not the case anymore, even shootaboyz can put some hurt down, they just cant do the whole Imperial shooting thing of "This unit fires 10-20 shots that hit on 2s and reroll 1s" so its never a sure thing.
And i know in my local area, nobody is adapting to my shooting. They walk right infront of my SSAG, Morkanaut, Shootaboyz, Dakkajets, dragsta, or scrapjet and expect to only take a little damage if any and get plastered. Its been beaten into their minds for so long that orks dont shoot, and when they do it rarely does anything, that now it DOES do something they forget about it.
Then i face the one guy that does adapt and i get my face melted off lol


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 20:47:09


Post by: tneva82


 flandarz wrote:
I generally start with with Gunz, because I run Freebooterz. I want my Super SAG to get that sweet +1 to hit. So I wipe some MSU or other easy to kill thing, then fire whatever else I have at harder to take down targets.


Ah but then you aren't using mek guns to soften target for SAG to finish it off now though? I was specifically talking regarding SAG. SAG first and finish with mek gun or start with mek gun and finish off with SAG. For that I think the one that has bigger chance of vaporizing target in one go(sure technically smasha gun can get 6 hits causing 36 wounds but odds of that...) and finish with mek gun rather than reverse seems more effective.

Obviously with freeboota starting with mek guns vs small units is good idea but then you aren't really aiming to finish unit with the SAG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
That i think is the capital issue: "my opponent forgot to protect an important model because he doesnt worry about ork shooting"

Thats such an old mentality that until now would be valid and usually a safe assumption. Not the case anymore, even shootaboyz can put some hurt down, they just cant do the whole Imperial shooting thing of "This unit fires 10-20 shots that hit on 2s and reroll 1s" so its never a sure thing.
And i know in my local area, nobody is adapting to my shooting. They walk right infront of my SSAG, Morkanaut, Shootaboyz, Dakkajets, dragsta, or scrapjet and expect to only take a little damage if any and get plastered. Its been beaten into their minds for so long that orks dont shoot, and when they do it rarely does anything, that now it DOES do something they forget about it.
Then i face the one guy that does adapt and i get my face melted off lol


Also rolling super hot helps ;-)

But yeah orks are surprisingly enough turning into bit of a shooty army O_o Though still not that much. Few units holding up army with shooting and then tellyporting boyz.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/30 23:24:39


Post by: Emicrania


My experience with superSAG is that is an autoinclude but ain't reliable at all. Today I blew out 3 ADmec robots I one turn with 7 shots S8 and than made 2 W on a knight without shields with 11 shots A 10 the turn after that. . .
I also went second the last 6 matches so I never had the opportunity to use all my mek gunz to proc the +1, just still, he's good.
Ofc freebooterz and all the gimmicks are necessary, as 10 grots for as a shield


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 01:03:52


Post by: SemperMortis


I agree with you about ork shooting becoming a bit of a thing, but shoota boyz are still atrocious. say by some miracle you get a full 30 blob of shoota boyz in range of a tac squad in the open. Furthermore, lets say you are bad moonz.

30 boyz = 60 shots, 20 hits, 10 reroll 1s for 3 more hits including 1.5 more 6s so 11.5 rerolls (say 12 for ease) for another 4 hits including 2 1s which reroll for .6 more hits, So 28ish hits, 14 ish wounds and against 3+ armor that is about 4.66 dead Marines. Put those Marines in cover (like they always are it feels like) and its 2.33. Without cover you have a 210pt unit killing between 52 and 65pts worth of Marines, with cover its between 26 and 39. Neither is good. My old go to comparison for attackers is the 3 to 1 test. A unit should be able to kill 1/3rd of its points in a specific phase to be considered good at that phase, not great, but good. Shoota boyz are still not where they need to be in regards to shooting for me to consider them worth taking, bump them to 4+ base and yeah that is nice. (Math for 4+ base: 60 shots, 30 hits, 10ish extra hits for 40 actual hits and 20 wounds for 6-7 Dead Marines a turn. That becomes 78 to 91pts of dead Marines)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 01:14:07


Post by: flandarz


So, take Freebooterz Shoota Boyz, then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though, to be fair, even Shoota Boyz still perform better in CC than at range.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 02:02:49


Post by: Vineheart01


Yeah pretty much the only reason to run pure shootaboyz is they can shoot one target and charge another after Da Jump (or the same one given even with 'Ere We Go its easy to fail a 9" charge anyway), and even then probably better to run a mix unless you are Bad Moonz. Freeboota works in melee so i'd still wager slugga boyz would be better in general.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 02:29:01


Post by: hollow one


 Emicrania wrote:
Man some of you are never gonna be happy.
LVO, no orks top 10= the orks are bad
Adepticon= 4 orks top 10, GW is bad they will never make orks good.
Jezuz....
QFT.

LVO the sky was falling, our list is bad and it can't win games. Now GW will nerf us. Dudes just admit we have a good codex with awesome options that is seriously competitive. Soon as I read a page of this thread that doesn't have wish-listing in it, I'll be super happy to get back involved.

PS: SSAG Mek is legit. Anecdotal evidence aside, there are statistics and mathhammer that promote its use, even if the meta is moving towards snipers. 80pts to kill up to 2x200+ point models over 5-6 turns is a no brainer, and lists that included the SSAG in LVO were winning at 55%. Someone in the thread (i think r-squared) hit it on the head, the fact that it's a character is the reason it is good, because you can reliably expect it to shoot 3-4 turns, which will average out your variance in a game. I can't imagine a game where it doesn't kill its points worth.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 08:58:46


Post by: tneva82


SemperMortis wrote:
I agree with you about ork shooting becoming a bit of a thing, but shoota boyz are still atrocious. say by some miracle you get a full 30 blob of shoota boyz in range of a tac squad in the open. Furthermore, lets say you are bad moonz.

30 boyz = 60 shots, 20 hits, 10 reroll 1s for 3 more hits including 1.5 more 6s so 11.5 rerolls (say 12 for ease) for another 4 hits including 2 1s which reroll for .6 more hits, So 28ish hits, 14 ish wounds and against 3+ armor that is about 4.66 dead Marines. Put those Marines in cover (like they always are it feels like) and its 2.33. Without cover you have a 210pt unit killing between 52 and 65pts worth of Marines, with cover its between 26 and 39. Neither is good. My old go to comparison for attackers is the 3 to 1 test. A unit should be able to kill 1/3rd of its points in a specific phase to be considered good at that phase, not great, but good. Shoota boyz are still not where they need to be in regards to shooting for me to consider them worth taking, bump them to 4+ base and yeah that is nice. (Math for 4+ base: 60 shots, 30 hits, 10ish extra hits for 40 actual hits and 20 wounds for 6-7 Dead Marines a turn. That becomes 78 to 91pts of dead Marines)


Keep in mind though shoota boyz isn\t primarily shooting unit but mixed so you need to factor in h2h ability. so 24,7% of unit's cost when primary function is in h2h...That shooting isn't supposed to be primary killer but more of added tool. It's function is more of to clear chaff so that your h2h is maximum power.

H2h units don't need to have great shooting to be good. And even shoota boy is primarily h2h unit with secondary use with guns. And that 28 hits translates nicely against kills into common chaff. 12 dead GEQ's. That's one unit dead. And then you can charge something else. With 18" range you can reach out vs another unit than the one you are aiming to charge even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hollow one wrote:
 Emicrania wrote:
Man some of you are never gonna be happy.
LVO, no orks top 10= the orks are bad
Adepticon= 4 orks top 10, GW is bad they will never make orks good.
Jezuz....
QFT.

LVO the sky was falling, our list is bad and it can't win games. Now GW will nerf us. Dudes just admit we have a good codex with awesome options that is seriously competitive. Soon as I read a page of this thread that doesn't have wish-listing in it, I'll be super happy to get back involved.

PS: SSAG Mek is legit. Anecdotal evidence aside, there are statistics and mathhammer that promote its use, even if the meta is moving towards snipers. 80pts to kill up to 2x200+ point models over 5-6 turns is a no brainer, and lists that included the SSAG in LVO were winning at 55%. Someone in the thread (i think r-squared) hit it on the head, the fact that it's a character is the reason it is good, because you can reliably expect it to shoot 3-4 turns, which will average out your variance in a game. I can't imagine a game where it doesn't kill its points worth.


Yeah it's real nice that this tournanament with unique enviroment that's not really available elsewhere orks made well. Good for them. Now whatabout rest of us who don't play in that tournamanet so can't use what they did to same effect while facing knights etc that aren't neutered by tournament rules?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 09:39:12


Post by: hollow one


Ah yes that old chestnut. Like how boy spam wasn't good but it topped the London GT.

You're right, the list is probably garbage since Adepticon wasn't using ITC... oh wait did you mean CA2018 missions? What about NOVA missions? Sorry maybe you meant maelstrom. [edit: I think I've been too sarcastic here and my point might be lost. Every tournament has a slight new spin on rules, your arguement could invalidate MOST tournament results, so it's fairly meaningless to point at a rule you don't approve of and say the results are now void]

And you're also right about the meaning of these results... Adepticon results are likely not even correlated to the quality of an army. It's not like Steve Pampreen came 15th in LVO and 3rd in Adepticon with the exact same list. Probably has nothing to do with the strength of the list. [edit: The fact that the exact same loota star list dominated in LVO (with knights btw) and Adepticon speaks to the strength of the list because it is able to adapt to rules changes, adapt to meta differences, and still be top tier]


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 10:17:17


Post by: PiñaColada


I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.

The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.

Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?

Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)

HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun (84)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic (86)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Ork Warboss: Relic: Powerclaw (78)

HQ: Weirdboy: Weirboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa (75)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 10:20:16


Post by: SemperMortis


 hollow one wrote:
Ah yes that old chestnut. Like how boy spam wasn't good but it topped the London GT.



Wait....are you using the tool bag who slow played an entire tournament to prove that Orkz were good in Index form? Just want to make sure your point here is taken at actual face value. Some guy slow played an event to the point where basically no game went past Turn 3 and that is your proof that boyz spam was good?

As for Orkz being good with codex, I still disagree, the fact remains that the one competitive list that made it far (At LVO), (loota bomb) is easily countered now by 2 factions. Plus, vs a Castellan Knight with a 3++ shield up is basically laughing at a loota bomb. And if that knight gets first turn he will delete most of your Mek Gunz without trying that hard.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 10:39:37


Post by: r_squared


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
Mathammer is great and all, but I've played it, and it felt broken. With the right setup, and the right strategems you are deleting a unit a turn. If you're using this to take out vehicles and knights then big killa boss is a must to counter those low strength rolls.

My Op is a veteran player, and we were chucking some dice in a beer and pretzels game, but he is fantastic at building some really tricksy strong lists for a variety of armies and we regularly go toe to toe with full on lists and we discussed the Super shocka at length. We decided that the clutch part isn't just the 2d6, it's the fact that it's on a character that really makes it effective. The access to warlord traits is a real bonus, and even with scouts snipers my OP could not touch this killing machine. If the SSAG was on a vehicle, it'd be so so, on a character, in the backfield, correctly screened, it's broken.

For the points? I'd take 2 more SAG Big Meks to complement the SSAG, at 80pts a go, once the Super shokka lights up its first target, you can guarantee your ops target priority is changing.

I'm sure it did feel broken. But that's exactly what anecdotal evidence is - feelings. Unfortunately feelings don't mean much when we have stats.

Come back to us in a week or 2 when you've had that one game where the SSAG just refuses to hit, or when you do hit it's with S2-4 shots, or when your opponent lands all their saves. You'll see where we're coming from.

You're not "deleting a unit a turn" unless you are incredibly lucky every turn.

Re the character protection, I suggest you wait until your OP manages to sneak a few Vindicares into his list. Or any other counter to the SSAG Mek (Deep Strike melee units, flyers).

The average damage for the weapon is incredibly low, even with BKB, but you're just remembering the big hits.


I'm not such a noob that I've not played a shock attack gun before, just not this variant, and not with the backup of codex options.

I'm sorry but I get the feeling that you just want this to be bad and are refusing to acknowledge that outside of a vacuum this is a very good, and useful bit of kit. Big killa boss is clutch, it means that against t8 you are guaranteed to wound on a minimum of 5+, with a greater than average chance of wounding on 4+.
That threat alone with the huge range makes my op really consider every move, much more so than before.

Forcing my opponent to now having to consider how to take out a character, buried in cover surrounded by grot and a counter charge units is a great investment. If you want to deliberately talk it down and not use it, you're only hurting yourself. It's laughable that you're even suggesting deep striking assault units against an ork army, I mean seriously? I'd love an op to try. Any op that can place a flyer in my backfield in a position that could hurt him means that I have fethed up.

As to deleting a unit a turn, any vehicle targeted by the 60" range weapon is either going to be gone, or crippled by this as are any small numbered elite units that happen to stray into LOS. We played it, we saw it happen, I used the strategems to ensure it and my op's decision making changed completely based on his experience of facing it.

I see the maths, but this game is more than stats and maths and all weapons and characters act in support of each other to max out their effectiveness. If you're so blinkered then the loyal 32 have no value and are trash, but I'm pissing against the wind here.

"Feelings" are based on years of gaming experience and knowledge, not wishing and unicorns. I know this is good, I can see how it can cheaply and easily supplement my list and has the potential to tear the heart out of an opponents list with relative ease. I accept that occasionally it may fail, but at 84pts, with maybe 60pts in grot screens, I can live with that.

You want to take my years of gaming experience and knowledge and belittle it as "feelings" then go right ahead, im old and ugly enough to accept that. However, this puppy has found a home on my future competitive lists, and I'm only taking it against people prepared for a tough game in future.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 11:31:18


Post by: flandarz


I wanna mention that I *do* think Orkz are good. We have a real strong mono Army, with lots of options for play. I've argued this before. I just also recognize that a meta dominated by our weaknesses (Flyers and Knights) means we're in a tough spot competitively. I also don't think the Super SAG is an auto-include or OP. It's real good, no doubt. But, with those 90 Grots you mentioned, you're spending 260+ pts and a minimum of 1 CP on a unit that, on average, can dish out about 8-10 Wounds a turn. Character protection *does* help him out a lot, but it's still a hefty investment on something so swingy. Especially since, to use it to its maximum efficiency, you're gonna burn a Battalion's worth of CP on him every turn. I kinda put the Super SAG in the same place as the Loota Bomb. It's real good, but basing your whole win strategy around him is gonna bite ya in the butt.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 12:02:32


Post by: Emicrania


Position the dude backfield with a small unit of grots hidden for shield, position your backline to prevent DS and you are good to go for at least 3 turn, where this dude make his points back the majority of the time.
Is one goddamn Mek, not a knight for 88 points he is awesome, we got 1912 more points to win the game .


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 12:15:01


Post by: r_squared


 flandarz wrote:
I wanna mention that I *do* think Orkz are good. We have a real strong mono Army, with lots of options for play. I've argued this before. I just also recognize that a meta dominated by our weaknesses (Flyers and Knights) means we're in a tough spot competitively. I also don't think the Super SAG is an auto-include or OP. It's real good, no doubt. But, with those 90 Grots you mentioned, you're spending 260+ pts and a minimum of 1 CP on a unit that, on average, can dish out about 8-10 Wounds a turn. Character protection *does* help him out a lot, but it's still a hefty investment on something so swingy. Especially since, to use it to its maximum efficiency, you're gonna burn a Battalion's worth of CP on him every turn. I kinda put the Super SAG in the same place as the Loota Bomb. It's real good, but basing your whole win strategy around him is gonna bite ya in the butt.


I did say that he is to supplement my lists. At 144pts with grot screens he fits in easy. Im not building a list around him, because i dont have to, which is where hes not comparable to the Loota bomb at all. If he doesn't get his points back, and divert my ops attention then he's failed, but I highly doubt that'll be the case.
I have 1856 points left with which to build whatever I like, that gives me a great deal of flexibility.

I also think you're underestimating the strength of the character ability, he cannot be targeted apart from by specialised units, and then you have grot screens and an oiler to deflect that. A similar amount of points of smasha guns, whilst amazing value do not have the staying power of this character despite being tougher and having many many more wounds by the simple expedient that they can be targeted and deleted at will.
His range means that he can sit literally at the very back of the table, on top of a building with clear view of everything, screened effectively and your op cannot even touch him. My Admech transuranic aqueous is the only sniper unit that I own that has a hope of taking him out, having the same range, and can be buffed to hit on a 2+. Most armies don't have anything that can do that.

Where he wins is that, barring sloppy play or bad luck, you'll have him shooting every turn of the game until the end. If maths is your thing he will definitely get his points back in that case. Orks are about playing the numbers, on average, with multiple shots you will do something useful. But too many people arguing against him remember the time they were let down, so say he's too "swingy". It's actually the bad things you remember longer, not the good times. That's proven psychology, so you can see why so many cynics talk units like this down.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 12:21:48


Post by: PiñaColada


He's undoubtebly crazy good value, especially since you're pretty much guaranteed to field the grots sorrounding him anyways. He might be the singular best unit in our codex IMO.

As I stated earlier though, several factions has psychic power that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy unit and there are no character targgeting restrictions in that phase so that's a vulnerability worth keeping in mind. And speaking of psychic powers, always keep one grot within 1" of him if playing GSC so if they manage to Mind Control him they can only use the ability to fight in CC and not fire at your own stuff.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 12:30:27


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 r_squared wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
Mathammer is great and all, but I've played it, and it felt broken. With the right setup, and the right strategems you are deleting a unit a turn. If you're using this to take out vehicles and knights then big killa boss is a must to counter those low strength rolls.

My Op is a veteran player, and we were chucking some dice in a beer and pretzels game, but he is fantastic at building some really tricksy strong lists for a variety of armies and we regularly go toe to toe with full on lists and we discussed the Super shocka at length. We decided that the clutch part isn't just the 2d6, it's the fact that it's on a character that really makes it effective. The access to warlord traits is a real bonus, and even with scouts snipers my OP could not touch this killing machine. If the SSAG was on a vehicle, it'd be so so, on a character, in the backfield, correctly screened, it's broken.

For the points? I'd take 2 more SAG Big Meks to complement the SSAG, at 80pts a go, once the Super shokka lights up its first target, you can guarantee your ops target priority is changing.

I'm sure it did feel broken. But that's exactly what anecdotal evidence is - feelings. Unfortunately feelings don't mean much when we have stats.

Come back to us in a week or 2 when you've had that one game where the SSAG just refuses to hit, or when you do hit it's with S2-4 shots, or when your opponent lands all their saves. You'll see where we're coming from.

You're not "deleting a unit a turn" unless you are incredibly lucky every turn.

Re the character protection, I suggest you wait until your OP manages to sneak a few Vindicares into his list. Or any other counter to the SSAG Mek (Deep Strike melee units, flyers).

The average damage for the weapon is incredibly low, even with BKB, but you're just remembering the big hits.


I'm not such a noob that I've not played a shock attack gun before, just not this variant, and not with the backup of codex options.

I'm sorry but I get the feeling that you just want this to be bad and are refusing to acknowledge that outside of a vacuum this is a very good, and useful bit of kit. Big killa boss is clutch, it means that against t8 you are guaranteed to wound on a minimum of 5+, with a greater than average chance of wounding on 4+.
That threat alone with the huge range makes my op really consider every move, much more so than before.

Forcing my opponent to now having to consider how to take out a character, buried in cover surrounded by grot and a counter charge units is a great investment. If you want to deliberately talk it down and not use it, you're only hurting yourself. It's laughable that you're even suggesting deep striking assault units against an ork army, I mean seriously? I'd love an op to try. Any op that can place a flyer in my backfield in a position that could hurt him means that I have fethed up.

As to deleting a unit a turn, any vehicle targeted by the 60" range weapon is either going to be gone, or crippled by this as are any small numbered elite units that happen to stray into LOS. We played it, we saw it happen, I used the strategems to ensure it and my op's decision making changed completely based on his experience of facing it.

I see the maths, but this game is more than stats and maths and all weapons and characters act in support of each other to max out their effectiveness. If you're so blinkered then the loyal 32 have no value and are trash, but I'm pissing against the wind here.

"Feelings" are based on years of gaming experience and knowledge, not wishing and unicorns. I know this is good, I can see how it can cheaply and easily supplement my list and has the potential to tear the heart out of an opponents list with relative ease. I accept that occasionally it may fail, but at 84pts, with maybe 60pts in grot screens, I can live with that.

You want to take my years of gaming experience and knowledge and belittle it as "feelings" then go right ahead, im old and ugly enough to accept that. However, this puppy has found a home on my future competitive lists, and I'm only taking it against people prepared for a tough game in future.

So basically - the SSAG Mek is great against players that don't know how to counter or play against it. Amazing! I need to write that gem down.

Again, to reiterate - even with Big Kills Boss there is absolutely no guarantee you cripple or even hurt a vehicle or elite unit. Congrats though because you've just used your warlord trait and free relic on this 2d6 shots BS5+ (maybe 4+ IF you kill a unit first) platform that has a 2d6 str weapon with +1 to wound against certain targets.

Perhaps your meta is friendly or your OP isn't a good player, I don't know and I don't care.

I take the SSAG Mek, of course. Never said I didnt. I didn't claim he was poor either. But he certainly isn't 'broken' and to suggest such is really, really naive and shows the level you're playing at, in my opinion.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 12:55:41


Post by: addnid


PiñaColada wrote:
I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.

The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.

Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?

Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)

HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun (84)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic (86)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Ork Warboss: Relic: Powerclaw (78)

HQ: Weirdboy: Weirboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa (75)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)



If the list isn’t missing lootas then what are the bad moon grots there for ?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 13:18:40


Post by: flandarz


You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 14:36:14


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 flandarz wrote:
You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.
Exactly this. I don't consider these sort of entry level tactics to be particularly difficult either.

As I said earlier, maybe I'm used to playing good opponents or something but this stuff is like clear as day to me. And yes some of my opponents have managed to sneak into CC with him or kill him with a flyer, particularly once those grots are melted.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 14:58:39


Post by: r_squared


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Spoiler:
 r_squared wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
Mathammer is great and all, but I've played it, and it felt broken. With the right setup, and the right strategems you are deleting a unit a turn. If you're using this to take out vehicles and knights then big killa boss is a must to counter those low strength rolls.

My Op is a veteran player, and we were chucking some dice in a beer and pretzels game, but he is fantastic at building some really tricksy strong lists for a variety of armies and we regularly go toe to toe with full on lists and we discussed the Super shocka at length. We decided that the clutch part isn't just the 2d6, it's the fact that it's on a character that really makes it effective. The access to warlord traits is a real bonus, and even with scouts snipers my OP could not touch this killing machine. If the SSAG was on a vehicle, it'd be so so, on a character, in the backfield, correctly screened, it's broken.

For the points? I'd take 2 more SAG Big Meks to complement the SSAG, at 80pts a go, once the Super shokka lights up its first target, you can guarantee your ops target priority is changing.

I'm sure it did feel broken. But that's exactly what anecdotal evidence is - feelings. Unfortunately feelings don't mean much when we have stats.

Come back to us in a week or 2 when you've had that one game where the SSAG just refuses to hit, or when you do hit it's with S2-4 shots, or when your opponent lands all their saves. You'll see where we're coming from.

You're not "deleting a unit a turn" unless you are incredibly lucky every turn.

Re the character protection, I suggest you wait until your OP manages to sneak a few Vindicares into his list. Or any other counter to the SSAG Mek (Deep Strike melee units, flyers).

The average damage for the weapon is incredibly low, even with BKB, but you're just remembering the big hits.


I'm not such a noob that I've not played a shock attack gun before, just not this variant, and not with the backup of codex options.

I'm sorry but I get the feeling that you just want this to be bad and are refusing to acknowledge that outside of a vacuum this is a very good, and useful bit of kit. Big killa boss is clutch, it means that against t8 you are guaranteed to wound on a minimum of 5+, with a greater than average chance of wounding on 4+.
That threat alone with the huge range makes my op really consider every move, much more so than before.

Forcing my opponent to now having to consider how to take out a character, buried in cover surrounded by grot and a counter charge units is a great investment. If you want to deliberately talk it down and not use it, you're only hurting yourself. It's laughable that you're even suggesting deep striking assault units against an ork army, I mean seriously? I'd love an op to try. Any op that can place a flyer in my backfield in a position that could hurt him means that I have fethed up.

As to deleting a unit a turn, any vehicle targeted by the 60" range weapon is either going to be gone, or crippled by this as are any small numbered elite units that happen to stray into LOS. We played it, we saw it happen, I used the strategems to ensure it and my op's decision making changed completely based on his experience of facing it.

I see the maths, but this game is more than stats and maths and all weapons and characters act in support of each other to max out their effectiveness. If you're so blinkered then the loyal 32 have no value and are trash, but I'm pissing against the wind here.

"Feelings" are based on years of gaming experience and knowledge, not wishing and unicorns. I know this is good, I can see how it can cheaply and easily supplement my list and has the potential to tear the heart out of an opponents list with relative ease. I accept that occasionally it may fail, but at 84pts, with maybe 60pts in grot screens, I can live with that.

You want to take my years of gaming experience and knowledge and belittle it as "feelings" then go right ahead, im old and ugly enough to accept that. However, this puppy has found a home on my future competitive lists, and I'm only taking it against people prepared for a tough game in future.
So basically - the SSAG Mek is great against players that don't know how to counter or play against it. Amazing! I need to write that gem down.

Again, to reiterate - even with Big Kills Boss there is absolutely no guarantee you cripple or even hurt a vehicle or elite unit. Congrats though because you've just used your warlord trait and free relic on this 2d6 shots BS5+ (maybe 4+ IF you kill a unit first) platform that has a 2d6 str weapon with +1 to wound against certain targets.

Perhaps your meta is friendly or your OP isn't a good player, I don't know and I don't care.

I take the SSAG Mek, of course. Never said I didnt. I didn't claim he was poor either. But he certainly isn't 'broken' and to suggest such is really, really naive and shows the level you're playing at, in my opinion.


No need to be rude. We're debating the use of a cheap but powerful unit, not deeply held personal beliefs after all.

Where I play is both competitive and casual, I've regularly come up against strong lists and good players and I've also been playing 40k for a good few years and can recognise a cheap and effective tool when I see one.
Of course there are counters to a SSAG, just as there are for pretty much any unit in the game, and being dismissive of it just because chaff clearance exists is to miss the point. This is a supplemental, hard hitting character that requires minimal thought or experience to use and a minimal of tactical ability to deploy and play.

Perhaps the use of the word of "Broken" is the trigger here? I don't know how you define "broken", but perhaps it was a bit much to use the word if people think it means it breaks the game. To me, it's just a noun to say that I think that something is very, very good. The SSAG is definitely that, and we should be pleased about that.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 15:08:08


Post by: tneva82


 hollow one wrote:
Ah yes that old chestnut. Like how boy spam wasn't good but it topped the London GT.


Ah yes not even playing the same game as rest of the world. Easy to win when you play 2-3 turns but would collapse after that...So when rest of the world plays 5-7 turns as it's supposed that's irrelevant.

Yeah everything can be MADE good by tournament rules. I can make tournament where stompa is 100 pts. Does that mean stompa is suddenly good?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 15:12:54


Post by: r_squared


 flandarz wrote:
You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.


Granted, but I was trying to counter the assertion that hes just not that good at all because he has some vulnerabilities. In real terms it's an 80 point character unit with some screens. Your OP may chose to clear the chaff of grots, if they're in range, but they will have plenty of other things to worry about with the rest of the 1920 points of ork army available. I welcome a turn where my opponent is killing grots, it's what they're for.

At least we can agree that this is still a very good unit, and if used well can certainly do good work for pretty much any list with minimal investment.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 15:33:24


Post by: PiñaColada


 r_squared wrote:

-SNIP-
Perhaps the use of the word of "Broken" is the trigger here? I don't know how you define "broken", but perhaps it was a bit much to use the word if people think it means it breaks the game. To me, it's just a noun to say that I think that something is very, very good. The SSAG is definitely that, and we should be pleased about that.

I would say it's most likely this. Broken, in every instance I've heard it used, means something is too good all the way to the point of that whatever the actor is, it breaks the game. Meaning the game becomes unplayable, either in actuality or in effect. What you're describing is more akin to very good, top tier etc.

Maybe the word has been "diluted" a bit but I'm pretty that's the etymology of it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 15:42:12


Post by: flandarz


^ This. The wording you used during the course of the debate always implied that the Super SAG was "too powerful". You said things like "I wouldn't use this unit if I'm playing against my friends" and "it can take out a unit every turn". Literally no one argued that the Super SAG wasn't a good unit. Everyone was just saying "come on, dude. It ain't *that* good."


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 15:48:57


Post by: flaming tadpole


PiñaColada wrote:
I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.

The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.

Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?

Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)

HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun (84)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic (86)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Ork Warboss: Relic: Powerclaw (78)

HQ: Weirdboy: Weirboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa (75)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Steve did actually have a squad of 15 lootas. His list format is an absolute mess so it is easy to miss some of the stuff he brought lol.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 16:06:52


Post by: PiñaColada


 flaming tadpole wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.

The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.

Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?

Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)

HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun (84)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic (86)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Ork Warboss: Relic: Powerclaw (78)

HQ: Weirdboy: Weirboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa (75)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Steve did actually have a squad of 15 lootas. His list format is an absolute mess so it is easy to miss some of the stuff he brought lol.

Okay, so it's basically the list I wrote + 15 lootas in the bad moons batallion detachment? That makes sense. Also my headmath was wrong earlier as the list was 1742 points as is, not 1852 as I wrote.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 16:30:21


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 r_squared wrote:

Perhaps the use of the word of "Broken" is the trigger here? I don't know how you define "broken", but perhaps it was a bit much to use the word if people think it means it breaks the game. To me, it's just a noun to say that I think that something is very, very good. The SSAG is definitely that, and we should be pleased about that.

I think broken implies that it needs to be 'fixed' aka nerfed.

I agree it is a strong, obvious unit to include. Broken it is not.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 16:41:05


Post by: flaming tadpole


PiñaColada wrote:
 flaming tadpole wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.

The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.

Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?

Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)

HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun (84)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic (86)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Ork Warboss: Relic: Powerclaw (78)

HQ: Weirdboy: Weirboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa (75)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Steve did actually have a squad of 15 lootas. His list format is an absolute mess so it is easy to miss some of the stuff he brought lol.

Okay, so it's basically the list I wrote + 15 lootas in the bad moons batallion detachment? That makes sense. Also my headmath was wrong earlier as the list was 1742 points as is, not 1852 as I wrote.
Yep yep


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 18:34:07


Post by: Emicrania


One question though, how does the grot oiler helps him in surviving? Isn't just a +1W?
Am I missing something?
I usually do


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 18:48:56


Post by: Gruxz


Well... yes

But it's also another model. Which means it can eat multiple damage without harming the character. Unless they're mortal wounds ofc.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 18:57:27


Post by: SemperMortis


 flandarz wrote:
You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.


If anything I think he should have the ability to take a Git Finda and make him BS4+ then It would be an auto-include in most lists.

BTW, that list you posted with the guys army is missing 342pts, someone mentioned he had 15 lootas as well, put those in and you are still missing 87pts. I wonder if he had 2 Detachments of 10 and something else as a minor buff because that would make it closer to 2,000pts.

Either way, it just accentuates the fact that the ork army is a 1 trick pony right now. Loota bomb with a SSAG if you want to spend the CP on it. I am guessing that guy just jumped Grot units around the field capping objectives and used his loota bomb and SSAG to kill anything trying to kill the grotz. Not a bad strategy, but remove the loota bomb and you will quickly run out of grotz.

On a related note, my normal opponents have finally figured out how to easily kill a Loota bomb. Focus fire the 60-90 grotz down first. Why the grotz first? Because when you target the lootas you have to wound based on a T4 model, when you focus fire the grotz first your average Bolter is wounding on a 2+, so you have a significantly better chance to wound. 30 bolter hits vs Loota's with grot shields active = 15 wounds and 15 dead Grotz (no armor allowed) 30 Bolter hits vs Grotz = 25 wounds 6+ saves allowed = 22ish dead Grotz. Simple math but very important.

Another normal guy I play against brings his Eldar bikes into play and shoots a hole in my grot shields turn 1 and assaults them either with the bikes turn 1 or assaults the grot shields and moves into B2B to stop me from shooting.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 19:13:53


Post by: tneva82


SemperMortis wrote:
If anything I think he should have the ability to take a Git Finda and make him BS4+ then It would be an auto-include in most lists.


Um generally autoinclude means something is too good. So if something becomes autoinclude by upgrade odds are that upgrade is too good.



On a related note, my normal opponents have finally figured out how to easily kill a Loota bomb. Focus fire the 60-90 grotz down first. Why the grotz first? Because when you target the lootas you have to wound based on a T4 model, when you focus fire the grotz first your average Bolter is wounding on a 2+, so you have a significantly better chance to wound. 30 bolter hits vs Loota's with grot shields active = 15 wounds and 15 dead Grotz (no armor allowed) 30 Bolter hits vs Grotz = 25 wounds 6+ saves allowed = 22ish dead Grotz. Simple math but very important.


Actually 30 bolter hits would be 12.5 grots and 2.5 lootas dead. But yeah that's what people generally do here as well.

Another normal guy I play against brings his Eldar bikes into play and shoots a hole in my grot shields turn 1 and assaults them either with the bikes turn 1 or assaults the grot shields and moves into B2B to stop me from shooting.


That's why you really need 30 strong unit(or two). That makes it BIT harder to do that. With 10 strong units you need multiple layers of those on multiple directions. But that's def another good loota star clearer.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 19:33:27


Post by: Emicrania


Gruxz wrote:
Well... yes

But it's also another model. Which means it can eat multiple damage without harming the character. Unless they're mortal wounds ofc.


A ok, so is like I thought you can eat a d6 with it but nothing more. Nice anyway


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 21:52:14


Post by: flandarz


I usually take Grots in units of 10, just because Morale is such a huge problem for them. They don't get Mob Rule, so you can start losing a lot of models to Morale very quickly in the bigger groups. The smaller ones also force your opponent to spread their fire between them, which could mean some wasted Wounds.

For example, the difference between 3 10-Grot Squads and 1 30-Grot Squad: Let's say the opponent fires 30 shots, with a 4+ BS. He's gonna land 15, and like 10.5 (let's round down to 10) are gonna pass Wounds and Saves. If he fired them all at the 30-Grot Squad, you're down to 20 Grots, and (after Morale), you're gonna lose 1d6+16 more. If he split fire (10/10/10) between the three Squads, each will have about 7 Grots left. That's 1d6-1 lost in each Squad, meaning you're guaranteed to have Grots left after Morale, while you could lose all of them in the 30-Grot Squad.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 22:00:54


Post by: Vineheart01


Grots without a runtherd just run away like Flandarz said every time. But a runtherder is so ridiculously overpriced...better off taking another 2x10 grots anyway.
The +1 to hit if greater than 20 means nothing for them.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 23:20:32


Post by: JNAProductions


 flandarz wrote:
I usually take Grots in units of 10, just because Morale is such a huge problem for them. They don't get Mob Rule, so you can start losing a lot of models to Morale very quickly in the bigger groups. The smaller ones also force your opponent to spread their fire between them, which could mean some wasted Wounds.

For example, the difference between 3 10-Grot Squads and 1 30-Grot Squad: Let's say the opponent fires 30 shots, with a 4+ BS. He's gonna land 15, and like 10.5 (let's round down to 10) are gonna pass Wounds and Saves. If he fired them all at the 30-Grot Squad, you're down to 20 Grots, and (after Morale), you're gonna lose 1d6+16 more. If he split fire (10/10/10) between the three Squads, each will have about 7 Grots left. That's 1d6-1 lost in each Squad, meaning you're guaranteed to have Grots left after Morale, while you could lose all of them in the 30-Grot Squad.


How do you get 1d6+16 lost from 10 Casualties?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 23:25:29


Post by: flandarz


Sorry. My mistake. Shoulda been 1d6+6. So, on average, if you lose 10 Grots from shooting, you'll lose another 9-10 from Morale, in the 30 Squad. In the 3x10 Squads, you'll lose... 8-9 on the (1d6-1)x3? Still better off with the multiple squads.

Course, the max and min loses are a lot more varied. Minimum of 7 on the 30 Squad, with a maximum or 12. Minimum of 0 on the 10 Squad, with a maximum of 15.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/03/31 23:40:19


Post by: JNAProductions


 flandarz wrote:
Sorry. My mistake. Shoulda been 1d6+6. So, on average, if you lose 10 Grots from shooting, you'll lose another 9-10 from Morale, in the 30 Squad. In the 3x10 Squads, you'll lose... 8-9 on the (1d6-1)x3? Still better off with the multiple squads.

Course, the max and min loses are a lot more varied. Minimum of 7 on the 30 Squad, with a maximum or 12. Minimum of 0 on the 10 Squad, with a maximum of 15.


Okay, thanks for clearing that up.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 01:25:33


Post by: cody.d.


A random, silly and meme thought. How many 30grot units do yo think you could get into range of Gazzy? Just to dick around with his Waaagh rule and breakin' heads.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 03:44:26


Post by: Billagio


cody.d. wrote:
A random, silly and meme thought. How many 30grot units do yo think you could get into range of Gazzy? Just to dick around with his Waaagh rule and breakin' heads.



They wouldnt benefit from his Great WAAAHGH rule since it only benefits Orks Infantry which grots are not.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 03:48:13


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Billagio wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
A random, silly and meme thought. How many 30grot units do yo think you could get into range of Gazzy? Just to dick around with his Waaagh rule and breakin' heads.



They wouldnt benefit from his Great WAAAHGH rule since it only benefits Orks Infantry which grots are not.
Gretchin are 100% ORK INFANTRY and will benefit from the Great Waaagh! rule. You're thinking of Stratagems that don't affect Gretchin.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 03:54:56


Post by: cody.d.


Indeed BCB is correct. They have all the correct keywords to be Ghazzy's most pathetic retinue imaginable!

FEAR HIM AND HIS KNEE HIGH WAAAAGH!!

Almost as funny as Gulliman leading a Ratling and conscript force.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 05:36:02


Post by: tneva82


 flandarz wrote:
I usually take Grots in units of 10, just because Morale is such a huge problem for them. They don't get Mob Rule, so you can start losing a lot of models to Morale very quickly in the bigger groups. The smaller ones also force your opponent to spread their fire between them, which could mean some wasted Wounds.

For example, the difference between 3 10-Grot Squads and 1 30-Grot Squad: Let's say the opponent fires 30 shots, with a 4+ BS. He's gonna land 15, and like 10.5 (let's round down to 10) are gonna pass Wounds and Saves. If he fired them all at the 30-Grot Squad, you're down to 20 Grots, and (after Morale), you're gonna lose 1d6+16 more. If he split fire (10/10/10) between the three Squads, each will have about 7 Grots left. That's 1d6-1 lost in each Squad, meaning you're guaranteed to have Grots left after Morale, while you could lose all of them in the 30-Grot Squad.


Well with 30 strong unit(s) you obviously take the runtherd if you don't have warboss nearby.

Benefit of 30 strong is ability to take casualties where ever you need. Handy against T1 chargers, handy against flyers etc. Otherwise flier flies to flank, enemy shoots with chaff clearers toward the side where flier is and then the grots on other side are useless for grot shields.

Flip side of course is cost of runtherd. But 10 strong units are lot easier to ignore for grot screen than 30 strong where you can do casualty removal shenigans ensuring that even when you have 4 grots left you have 360 angle more or less covered.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 09:13:40


Post by: PiñaColada


Has anyone where ever used the Battlewagon with supa kannon from forgeworld this edition?

I love that model but don't own it (itchy buying fingers). As of right now it's pretty bad ruleswise but -if- it did get buffs it might be alright. Then there are 3 different buffs that are all somewhat likely IMO.

1, Simply drop the battlewagon cost to the same as the one in the codex, so 40 points cheaper

2, Make the supa kannon BS4+ since it's grots firing it

3, Make us able to take the supa kannon on a gunwagon platform instead

So out of those 3 options I'd say number 1 is most likely since that really should happen. Would that be enough though? Realistically speaking that same point reduction should be there for #2 and # would use the gunwagon cost. Both of those would make it interesting but #1 might a least make it okay?

What do y'all reckon?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 09:27:29


Post by: tneva82


Personally I would be tempted to just use it as count as gunwagon with killa kannon. with periscope rule it's almost same anyway. damage 2 vs damage 3 but almost 40 pts cheaper.

If it got 40 pts discount...Well then why take gunwagon? Extra blip of damage, always 2d6 shots rather than when moving half and 4 pts cheaper! So 40 pts price reduction is flat out out of question UNLESS gunwagon gets something to help. 155 pts vs 151 for worse gun and rules? Nope. However obviously now it's too high price but something like 165 or so? Assuming gunwagon does not get price drop. IF it does then this should of course follow suit.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 09:33:32


Post by: PiñaColada


Well the 40 points is simply from that according to forgeworld a battlewagon is still 161 points and not 121 like the ork codex, so the 40 point reduction would just be parity between FW Index and Ork Codex.

Yes, that would put the gunwagon in a weird position but that's almost entirely due to the fact that the gunwagon is pretty terrible for the price IMO.

Edit: But the main difference between the killkannon gunwagon and supa kannon battlewagon is, aside from damage 3, the range. 24" is just so underwhelming. 60" could help hit those backline targets I can't charge. And flat 3 damage is just amazing against a plethora of targets.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2019/04/01 09:45:36


Post by: tneva82


PiñaColada wrote:
Well the 40 points is simply from that according to forgeworld a battlewagon is still 161 points and not 121 like the ork codex, so the 40 point reduction would just be parity between FW Index and Ork Codex.

Yes, that would put the gunwagon in a weird position but that's almost entirely due to the fact that the gunwagon is pretty terrible for the price IMO.

Edit: But the main difference between the killkannon gunwagon and supa kannon battlewagon is, aside from damage 3, the range. 24" is just so underwhelming. 60" could help hit those backline targets I can't charge. And flat 3 damage is just amazing against a plethora of targets.


You realize the range just makes case of flat out 40 pts drop is out of the question? 4 pts less, you get more range, more damage, more shots even when moving beyond half the speed...