well i want to put 2 power fists on my assault sgt. am i able to do this?
its worded kinda funny in the new space marine book.

Yes, as he may replace his bolt pistol and/or chainsword with one of the weapons listed.

ill take your word for it thanks

Why do you need to take my 'word' for it? It's right there in black and white in the codex.

im at work with out my book so thats why.

No need to take his word, its in the codex. Also you may give him a pair of lightning claws and keep your bolt pistol or chain sword.

padixon wrote:No need to take his word, its in the codex. Also you may give him a pair of lightning claws and keep your bolt pistol or chain sword.

Sadly this is true, so it is legal to give a Assault Squad Vet Sgt two sets of Lightning Claws.

padixon wrote:No need to take his word, its in the codex. Also you may give him a pair of lightning claws and keep your bolt pistol or chain sword.

Huh? Unless you are totally Easter Egg hunting, each lightning claw requires a swap with the bolt pistol or chainsword.

Homer

No,

You may replace the CCW and/or Bolt Pistol for....

X points you may get ..... or Pair of Lightning Claws.

I am not stating I would do it, but its legal as per the unit entry.

Ghaz is right. You can replace BOTH it says AND. Each one with a fist. THe new dex even has pics of captains and such with two lightning klaws.

smart_alex wrote:Ghaz is right. You can replace BOTH it says AND. Each one with a fist. THe new dex even has pics of captains and such with two lightning klaws.

Careful guys, this is how you confuse the hell out of non-English speaking gaming groups when you "clarify" stuff like this.

You may replace a weapon and/or the other weapon with just ONE ITEM from each listing. You may not take a duplicate entry unless it is listed twice or "as a pair".

Pick the list item you want, pick the item(s) you want to replace, pay the points, keep going to the next entry.

No, no two fists as there is no entry for "pair of fists", neither is a power fist listed 2 times.

Its not worded funny, its explained quite well how the listings work on page 128.

It does seem like you can take a pair of claws and keep your pistol though, and even upgrade that pistol to a plasma.

PolecatEZ wrote:You may replace a weapon and/or the other weapon with just ONE ITEM from each listing. You may not take a duplicate entry unless it is listed twice or "as a pair".

Pick the list item you want, pick the item(s) you want to replace, pay the points, keep going to the next entry.

No, no two fists as there is no entry for "pair of fists", neither is a power fist listed 2 times.

Its not worded funny, its explained quite well how the listings work on page 128.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Nothing says that you may only take an item from the list once. You may replace either, neither or both weapons with any weapon in the list provided. Therefore two of the same weapon is valid an legal.

Im still going with Ghaz. Why would you replace both with one item. Thats slowed in every sense. If that were the case it would just say or. However it says and/or I am sure it was worded this was specifically to add EXTRA clarity that TWO items may be taken. I do agree with polecatEZ in that sense. It is indeed NOT worded funny at all. It is completely clear that TWO items may be taken.

yes, you can take the same thing more than once, there's no reason you can't I'm not sure why the pair of lightning claws snuck in, in fact I think the english version has them on the assault marine sgt, while the german version misses them here but has them for command squad veterans.

PolecatEZ wrote:

smart_alex wrote:Ghaz is right. You can replace BOTH it says AND. Each one with a fist. THe new dex even has pics of captains and such with two lightning klaws.

Careful guys, this is how you confuse the hell out of non-English speaking gaming groups when you "clarify" stuff like this.

You may replace a weapon and/or the other weapon with just ONE ITEM from each listing. You may not take a duplicate entry unless it is listed twice or "as a pair".

Pick the list item you want, pick the item(s) you want to replace, pay the points, keep going to the next entry.

No, no two fists as there is no entry for "pair of fists", neither is a power fist listed 2 times.

Its not worded funny, its explained quite well how the listings work on page 128.

It does seem like you can take a pair of claws and keep your pistol though, and even upgrade that pistol to a plasma.

Hate to jump on the "you're freakin wrong" bandwagon but... (man, I have spent so long trying to figure out how to use this guy in a forum... this is a good day.) The wargear may only be taken once, but not so with weapons.

But I have a question, If you take say2 bolt pistols, it counts as a TL weapon right?

So if you take 2 powerfists, do you get the +1 attack, AND it counts as being MC?

Mastercrafted? ...

... Twin-Linked?

Pretty sure you can only fire with one weapon, unless rules state otherwise (cyclone missiles, techmarine harness, auxiliary grenade launcher). You can buy two in case one breaks or something. Heh.

Well, new SM don't have an 'option' for two bolt pistols anyway.

Shrike78 wrote:The wargear may only be taken once, but not so with weapons.

Only in codices with an Armoury. The new Codex Space Marines does not have an Armoury, therefore the army list entries will tell you whether or not a model can have duplicate items of wargear.

Shrike78 wrote:But I have a question, If you take say2 bolt pistols, it counts as a TL weapon right?

No, it does not count as twin linked.

Shrike78 wrote:So if you take 2 powerfists, do you get the +1 attack, AND it counts as being MC?

No, they do not count as being master crafted.

ok... (depressed sniff)

Shrike78 wrote:

PolecatEZ wrote:

smart_alex wrote:Ghaz is right. You can replace BOTH it says AND. Each one with a fist. THe new dex even has pics of captains and such with two lightning klaws.

Careful guys, this is how you confuse the hell out of non-English speaking gaming groups when you "clarify" stuff like this.

You may replace a weapon and/or the other weapon with just ONE ITEM from each listing. You may not take a duplicate entry unless it is listed twice or "as a pair".

Pick the list item you want, pick the item(s) you want to replace, pay the points, keep going to the next entry.

No, no two fists as there is no entry for "pair of fists", neither is a power fist listed 2 times.

Its not worded funny, its explained quite well how the listings work on page 128.

It does seem like you can take a pair of claws and keep your pistol though, and even upgrade that pistol to a plasma.

Hate to jump on the "you're freakin wrong" bandwagon but... (man, I have spent so long trying to figure out how to use this guy in a forum... this is a good day.) The wargear may only be taken once, but not so with weapons.

You didn't "figure out how to use him", you just kept asking around until you got an answer you liked, it doesn't necessarily make it right, but as you wish.

However, be warned -

1) The general rule in anything WH40K is that all rules are "exclusionary", meaning if it isn't said "you may do this," then generally you can't. Nowhere does it say "you may take a duplicate entry", nor is there anywhere that gives an example of a model having such a duplicate entry as was stated in the OP.

2) I'll smack the first nitwit that actually tries to pull this cheese in a pick up game with me. I'm sure I'm not alone.

3) I'll laugh my ass off when it gets faq'd and all the "loophole hero constructors" have to start ripping apart their models. Why does it always seem to happen to SM players?

4) If you really want twin power fists, there is a specific NPC model which has them as a very special piece of wargear (p.84).

Yes, they do say that you can take multiples. You can replace both weapons with any of the weapons listed. That permits you to take duplicates of the same item. Now show us where it says you can't take duplicates, because the rules say no such thing. If they didn't want you to take duplicate weapons then they would have specifically said so, like they did in the old codices with wargear.

OK. You may replace your bolt pistol with a power fist. Done? And you may now replace your CCW with a power fist. Done? Grats, you now have an assault sgt who spent more on powerfists than you spent on him to begin with, but he now has two power fists, and no invuln.

How is this not a strained interpretation of the rule? When entries, like the one for Vanguard Veterans, allow multiples of items to be taken as replacements for existing gear it says so in the entry. Vanguard Veterans has a listing for "Pair of Lightning Claws". By the logic of some of the posters in this thread that would mean one model could take 2 pair.

Brice

BBeale wrote:How is this not a strained interpretation of the rule? When entries, like the one for Vanguard Veterans, allow multiples of items to be take as replacements for existing gear it says so in the entry. Vanguard Veterans has a listing for "Pair of Lightning Claws". By the logic of some of the posters in this thread that would mean one model could take 2 pair.

Brice

ummm.... no they dont. vanguard can replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword with X X and a power weapon or lightning claw
nowhere does it say anything about a pair of claws.

Usernamesareannoying is correct. The options for a Vanguard Veteran Squad does not include a pair of lightning claws, only single lightning claws. Only the Assault Squad sergeant has the option of a pair of lightning claws.

Admittedly, I am going from memory, but I think it's under the Vangaurd Sergeant section of the entry. If not, that's how the Chapter Master and Captain entries are written--with "Pair of Lightning Claws" being a separate entry from the other weapons and the only entry indicating doubles.

Brice

P128 SM codex says "where an option states you may excahnge one weapon and/or another you may replace either, neither or both providing you pay the stated points cost"

To me this says if you want two power fist for 50 points you can have it.

( I agree that the assult spgt's option to take a pair of LCs for 30 points muddies the water a bit, but because p128 states thinks so clearly, I think it's just a redundant entry.)

BBeale wrote:Admittedly, I am going from memory, but I think it's under the Vangaurd Sergeant section of the entry. If not, that's how the Chapter Master and Captain entries are written--with "Pair of Lightning Claws" being a separate entry from the other weapons and the only entry indicating doubles.

Brice

Please don't post if you don't have the codex. None of the above have 'pair of lightning claws' listed as an option.

Ghaz,

Really? You sure about that? Did you read Kapitan Montag's post or the codex entry?

Brice

Unlike you, I actually read the codex entry. And if you had read this thread, you would have known that only the Assault Squad sergeant has the option to take a pair of lightning claws as I've already pointed out.

Ghaz,

Obviously I've been reading the thread and the codex, my first post on the issue of "Pair of Lightning Claws" as a unit entry came before yours. What I take issue with, is even though I was correct about it being a list entry option, you felt it necessary to condescend and take this thread off topic.

Brice

And if you were to read this thread you would have noticed I said only the Assault Squad sergeant has a 'pair of lightning claws' as an option and yet you kept on going and going, without even reading the codex. The only person dragging this off topic is you since you can't be bothered to either read the posts in this thread or the codex.

Ghaz,

Are you intentionally being an obtuse jackass? You told me not to post without reading the codex (when I obviously had) despite the fact that I was correct with regard to the fact that "Pair of Lightning Claws" exists as an option, which undermines the position that multiples of a single list item can be taken. Admitting that I was (am) working off of memory and my citation may be incorrect was apparently taken by you as an opportunity to admonish me further. Yet somehow this is my fault? Are you completely unable to approach matters in a congenial and cordial manner? You certainly wouldn't talk to someone like this in real life (not for very long anyway), so what makes you think it's acceptable in this thread?

Brice

i wonder if that "thunder hammer or pair of lightning claws" entry for the assault squad sergeant is a typo? it seems a bit odd that he is the only one with that option in the entire army, not even the chapter master has that option.

I honestly think it may have more to do with the fact that one of the Mk1 Veteran models comes with a pair of lighning claws than anything else. There's even a picture of him as a White Scar in the codex.

Brice

BBeale wrote:Ghaz,

Are you intentionally being an obtuse jackass? You told me not to post without reading the codex (when I obviously had) despite the fact that I was correct with regard to the fact that "Pair of Lightning Claws" exists as an option, which undermines the position that multiples of a single list item can be taken. Admitting that I was (am) working off of memory and my citation may be incorrect was apparently taken by you as an opportunity to admonish me further. Yet somehow this is my fault? Are you completely unable to approach matters in a congenial and cordial manner? You certainly wouldn't talk to someone like this in real life (not for very long anyway), so what makes you think it's acceptable in this thread?

Brice

Look who's being the obtuse jackass. It exists in ONE entry, which isn't any of the ones you said it was in. One single entry versus multiple entries does not 'undermine' anybody's argument. As for 'working off of memory', we told you multiple times what the codex said yet you continued to ignore what was said. If you were to stop and actually read what somebody said instead of continuing to ignore everone then maybe you wouldn't have been treated the way you've been treating us. And yes, if I had to put up with somebody who constantly ignored what I'm saying then that is the manner in which he deserves to be treated. It's not acceptable for you to keep on ignoring the others in this thread when they keep on telling you what the codex says and you keep on saying "well, I think it says something else but I don't have the book to check".

If you want people to treat you better, maybe you should do the same and pay attention to what they say for a change.

Ghaz,

First, don't assume that you're being ignored or that I'm not listening you. Both of our posts about the location of the entry, yours stating where the entry was and mine stating where I thought it was, were about a minute and a half apart. I'm sure you never stopped to think that I was drafting my response when you were posting. Hence, I did not see it. It's not all about you. Before you tell somone that they're not reading the thread maybe you should bother to consider other options.

Second, the fact that it exists as an option in one entry, and not in others, is highly dispositive on this issue. If the rule meant that multiples of the same weapon could be chosen, it would have been written like the assault squad sergeant's entry, which clearly indicates that a "Pair of Lightning Claws" can be taken. Instead, it was not.

Brice

And yet again, you ignored multiple posts over several hours. There is no excuse for that.

Secondly, one single entry does not suddenly make your argument valid. If anything, it makes that one entry suspect instead of validating your position. Or do you really believe that only an Assault Marine sergeant can get twin lightning claws while the Chapter Master can not?

Come on Ghaz, take a step back for a second. You have one entry where the option is presented in a clear and unabiguous way. By your logic, every other sergeant entry in the codex was drafted incorrectly, and we have to assume that multiples of listed options can be taken. By my logic, every other sergeant entry is correct without assumption, and the assault sergeant entry gives a specific assaulty-type benefit only to him.

I'm not sure about the Chapter Master wording off the top of my head, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case simply by virtue of the options in the model kit.

Brice

It just means the Assault Sergeant can take three Lightning Claws.

Replace bolt pistol with Lightning Claw.
Replace chainsword with Pair of Lightning Claws.

**edit: deleted rubbish about replacing neither weapon as Ghaz has pointed out the correct reading of p.128 in the 'slowed loophole' thread and Nurglitch even spells it out for the slow kids (like me) here.

If they want to base their army build on "clever interpretations of the codex", I say just let them.

Then laugh heartily when their chopped up models get faq'd out of existence in some years when GW gets around to it, and local tournament bosses tell them to stuff it in the meantime. I definitely will.

Interestingly, I've already been through this arguement when 5th edition GBB came out and this option was arguably allowed in the older Marine codex.

A few SM players in our group had a panic attack when they saw the new rules about power-fists and weapon combos not giving the extra attack, and argued that they could just pay the extra points and take a second power fist since the new 5th edition rules "say you need one".

They needed to be told, some not-so-politely, that each entry can only be taken one time, and that there were a few special models that had double-fists inherent.

Also interestingly, these players are the same archtype that can turn a 2 hour game into a 5 hour game easily by arguing every little exploit related to cover and LOS or mixing up 4th and 5th edition rules arguements...and generally lose badly regardless.

If your strategies rely on creative interpretation of the rules, you will lose 9 out of 10 times. Focus instead on coordinating the force size you pick, and you'll do a whole lot better. The answer almost never lies in "making a better sergeant or captain build" or "shuffling models in and out of cover that much more exactly", but in actually trying out good strategies and building an army to carry it out.

... So many people like to go back or forth over this but its simple english ... one thing replaces another, some things take come in pairs so replace 2 things ... which is why it says "and/or" ...

...I'm getting board of the SM player i know trying to get me to let him play with Sergent with a pair of lightning claws and a storm shield he hasn't got 3 arms, dam it!

Incidentally, my one of my assault sergeants is modelled with two power fists; the pointing one from the assault sprue and a debased left arm PF from the SW sprue. He was done up in 4th ed. days, of course, when that extra attack was there, and I made sure to model one guy with two pistols just to wizzywig. I've never tried to pay for an extra PF attack since it was taken from me, though. Not even close to worth it.

From the rulebook (right at the end of the Assault Phase section): "Only a second power-fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack..."

So a model can use any combination from the armoury so long as they have the hands to carry it. Obviously if a marine has a thunder hammer he cannot use any other ccw he is carrying as his hands are full with the hammer. Next time around he may use a different ccw he's carrying but not while he's using his hammer.

What I noticed is that there are redundant options which are obviously confusing. There's no need to list paired lightning claws as an option because they are already available under the single claw listing.

On page 128, the word 'neither' is redundant because the sentence already includes the word 'may' which means that any replacement is optional to begin with.

Two stormbolters would be interesting to see.

Tri wrote:... So many people like to go back or forth over this but its simple english ... one thing replaces another, some things take come in pairs so replace 2 things ... which is why it says "and/or" ...

...I'm getting board of the SM player i know trying to get me to let him play with Sergent with a pair of lightning claws and a storm shield he hasn't got 3 arms, dam it!

Just let him, one of those lightning claws is a waste of points with the stormshield there, although you should be aware that some units such as the command squad can actually take the storm shield without using any hands for it, it's just like a wargear purchase.

cadbren wrote:Obviously if a marine has a thunder hammer he cannot use any other ccw he is carrying as his hands are full with the hammer.

Thunder hammers are no more 2 handed than a power fist, matter of fact, the entry for them says they use the power fist rules, so if you are going to call a thunder hammer 2 handed then so is the fist, and I will expect you to model your sergeants with 2 handed power fists so that you can see how rediculous it is.

bbeale wrote:Come on Ghaz, take a step back for a second. You have one entry where the option is presented in a clear and unabiguous way. By your logic, every other sergeant entry in the codex was drafted incorrectly, and we have to assume that multiples of listed options can be taken. By my logic, every other sergeant entry is correct without assumption, and the assault sergeant entry gives a specific assaulty-type benefit only to him.

Yes, but by your logic, GW intentially drafted the codex such that german speaking players would only be able to give thier command squads dual lightning claws while english speaking players could only give them to assault squad sergeants. Do you honestly believe this is correct?


From: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218148.page

1hadhq wrote:@Smashotron:

The command-squad is exactly the same as in my german codex

One exception: after -powerfist we get -pair of lighning claws followed by -thunderhammer.

Don't know why we have one entry more than you. :S

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tri wrote:... So many people like to go back or forth over this but its simple english ... one thing replaces another, some things take come in pairs so replace 2 things ... which is why it says "and/or" ...

...I'm getting board of the SM player i know trying to get me to let him play with Sergent with a pair of lightning claws and a storm shield he hasn't got 3 arms, dam it!

Just let him, one of those lightning claws is a waste of points with the stormshield there, although you should be aware that some units such as the command squad can actually take the storm shield without using any hands for it, it's just like a wargear purchase.

No chance he's not getting weapons he shouldn't have, i know how he's going to use it 3+ inv for shooting x2 LC in CC ... hadn't spoted the Storm shield a wargear i'll have to look for it (i may have just ignored thinking it was another combat shield)...

Tri wrote:No chance he's not getting weapons he shouldn't have, i know how he's going to use it 3+ inv for shooting x2 LC in CC ... hadn't spoted the Storm shield a wargear i'll have to look for it (i may have just ignored thinking it was another combat shield)...

You can't turn the storm shield off, a unit equipped with one (that is, that has purchased one) CANNOT EVER get the bonus attack for two close combat weapons.

well from all the info ive gathered you can take 2 powerfists as long as you pay the price.

Deathmachine wrote:well from all the info ive gathered you can take 2 powerfists as long as you pay the price.

Yes, they gave assault sergeants wild new abilities in the 5th edition codex that they've never had before. Please take them.

/sarcasm

*mumbles something about smurf-playing noobs, walks off*

post removed for profanity and blatant flaming


--yakface

@Mod's

Please Close

@ Polecatez

Is it more likely to believe (exclusive of the written evidence which allows it, this is just a common sense statement) that they allowed Assault marine sergeants to take 2 power fists?

or that they've limited lightning claws to JUST assault marine sergeants and terminators, not characters in term armor but assault terminators. So now my "word is god in my own chapter" chapter master can't take lightning claws. Shrike is the only character in the SM Codex that can now take a pair of lightning claws according to your logic.

Oh, and was it just a coincidence that lightning claws went down to just 15 points for 1? odd how that magically makes them 30 points for a pair. But enough, hopefully the mods close this thread after this post.

Hulksmash wrote:Is it more likely to believe (exclusive of the written evidence which allows it, this is just a common sense statement) that they allowed Assault marine sergeants to take 2 power fists?

Nope, never have, never will. I've had this same arguement IRL with the previous codex when they released 5th edition. The wording was "similarly ambiguous" in the older codex as well, but nevertheless, it is exclusionary like every other rule in WH40k. They don't allow you to pick the same entry multiple times, very easy, unless it states you may select multiple of the same entry. Also, I personally know 3 guys that have tried this arguement in real life, I know their maturity levels and personality, as well as their win/loss records in our gaming group. They beat their heads against the wall constantly (losing badly) and try every rules trick they can think of to win, not realizing playing hero builder using creative interpretations of the rules and creative interpretation of English syntax is not the way to victory in this game. They're also some of the most frustrating to play, as 2 hour games really do turn into 5 hour brawls where they try to preserve every expensive model they can from getting wasted in 5 seconds.

If I can do my part to prevent this silliness from infecting just one other game group, I'll have done my good deed for my lifetime and will be assured a place in wargaming Valhalla when a Mac truck runs over my fat ass on the way to go buy more Chaos Black.

or that they've limited lightning claws to JUST assault marine sergeants and terminators, not characters in term armor but assault terminators. So now my "word is god in my own chapter" chapter master can't take lightning claws. Shrike is the only character in the SM Codex that can now take a pair of lightning claws according to your logic.

Absolutely not, please read your codex more carefully. Your DIY Chapter Master in Termie armor is more than allowed to take a pair of lightning claws for a total of (XX) points, as are your DIY Space Marine Captains in Termie armor. In regular power armor they are, unfortunately, limited to using a single claw. In all cases where pairs of anything are allowed, it is quite well spelled out in the appropriate codex entry. There are no "missing entries" or hidden Easter egg tricks to be found, though it was mentioned there was a mistranslation in the German codex.

Oh, and was it just a coincidence that lightning claws went down to just 15 points for 1? odd how that magically makes them 30 points for a pair. But enough, hopefully the mods close this thread after this post.

I'm not sure of any "newer" price, but yes, claws and pairs of claws are both the exact same price in the Chaos codex, I think they similarly updated/tweaked the cost in the new SM codex so they won't be exactly 2 for 2 in cases where this is allowed...see the chapter master/captain entries for further details. But as noted above, taking a "pair of anything" is well spelled out in the codex entries where it is allowed.

THANK YOU Hulksmash

It is also worth pointing out, that in addition to Chapter Masters and Captains in termie armor explicitly being given the ability to take 2 lightning claws, they may also take a pair of Thunder Hammers.

I have a hard time with any argument that is based upon inconsistency in the codex entries. There are three entries that specifically allow for multiples of the same item to be taken (assault squad veterans, chapter masters, and captains). None of the other entries specifically allow for it. You can't assume that the other entries are incorrect or lacking, and you can't assume that these 3 entries are just inconsistently drafted.

Brice

Deathmachine wrote:post removed for profanity and blatant flaming


--yakface

You asked if you could, you were given an answer, examples, and reasoning for the answer. What more of a "contribution" do you want? Someone to just agree that you can do it?

Basically, you can pick each line item on the codex entry one time. Full stop.

If you are allowed "pairs" of anything, it is in the respective codex entry spelled out exclusively, either by saying "pair" or by giving the same item in two entries. There are no "new" hidden Easter eggs or ability to gain extraordinary amounts of gear sneaked into the 5th edition SM codex. Common sense is always open to interpretation, so we won't try to push that point.

If you don't like the answer, then pick someone else's. It won't make it any more correct.

You're not the one that has to run tournaments around here with people constantly coming up with silly stuff on their tournament lists and saying "Someone on the interwebz said I could!" Believe me sir, I know "noobz". I'm much nicer to them in real life, but they still don't get an inch or a mile when I'm running things. Battletech is your friend if you like configuring and tweaking, no problems there.

post removed for profanity and blatant flaming


--yakface

you can get 2 power fists, although why you would want to pay 25 points for an extra attack is beyond me, but hey if you want to do it go for it. Personally Id rather have a relic blade for 15 points and a bolt pistol that way you get an extra attack and you have a str 6 power weapon that swings at init.

good point da gob smaka but im making this squad for suicide missions on tanks and such. and i thought you could take 2 PF but some people say no you cant.

Deathmachine wrote:good point da gob smaka but im making this squad for suicide missions on tanks and such. and i thought you could take 2 PF but some people say no you cant.

Thunder hammer, plasma pistol, melta-bombs.

With just a PF, chances are you won't get a vehicle if it moves out of the way, they'll see you coming. You also won't get to assault the second you drop in.

With the pistol (or pistols on the rest of the squad), you can deep strike on the ass-end of most vehicles and pop it (10 or 11 rear armor). If it sticks around then you can charge with the hammer and get the most bang for a lot of points. If the vehicle decides to try to run you over, melta-bomb the rear armor for an almost guaranteed pen hit.

Also, if the vehicle turns to face you the turn after you drop in, use the 12" jump move to get to its rear, fire again, then hammer or melta-bomb it.

For fewer points than all that though, you could get a small squad of scouts mounted in land speeder storm. Kit the sergeant with a combi-melta, multi-melta on storm, and missile launcher on another member. Deep strike, jump out, and shoot something very dead, all in the same turn...and if they live, you now also have a scoring unit ready to grab an objective.

da gob smaka wrote:you can get 2 power fists, although why you would want to pay 25 points for an extra attack is beyond me, but hey if you want to do it go for it. Personally Id rather have a relic blade for 15 points and a bolt pistol that way you get an extra attack and you have a str 6 power weapon that swings at init.

Relic Blade is a 2hander and as such cannot be used with another close combat weapon to get a bonus attack.

@Polecatez

Sorry but your wrong. RAW from pg. 128 Section 7 clearly states how it works. You can argue till the cows come home one way or the other. Claim exclusivity(sp?) is the way the game is played.

No where in the rule book does it say that is the way the game should be played. At least that i've read. If you can point this out to me then i'll happily take your side in the arguement.

But since it doesn't say that, and the entry clearly states "Where an option states that youmay exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, neither, or both provided you pay the points" I'm going to have to stick with your wrong.

Oh, and as for pairs of lightning claws no other entry has the pair. The only reason that they break up Terminator weaponry is because of the weapons already equipped have to be subtracted from the normal total. Hence 10 point upgrade on the pf since you already have a power weapon or the cheaper weapons on the stormbolter hand because of the weapon. They could lump the non-termy weapons all together since the basic equipment of non-termy gear is free so upgrades cost the normal amount.

As for your group, it's a small demographic and not everyone who makes a reasonable arguement is one of "those" guys. But you might also want to consider that you could be wrong and that as bad a players as they are they might be right. Even a blind squirel finds an acorn now and then

New editions mean new games. As you so clearly stated your beliefs are based on bringing 4th edition ideas into 5th. 5th is a different game. Start to get used to the idea that the game scene is changing and you'll have more fun and less arguements.

PolecatEZ wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Is it more likely to believe (exclusive of the written evidence which allows it, this is just a common sense statement) that they allowed Assault marine sergeants to take 2 power fists?

it is exclusionary like every other rule in WH40k. They don't allow you to pick the same entry multiple times, ... In regular power armor [captains are], unfortunately, limited to using a single claw.

Where in the codex does it say that only one of each kind may be taken? You are infering something from previous editions I think.
Marines in terminator armour are given specific options for what they may replace their original wargear with which is why there are two entries. The single entry for marines in power armour means they can replace either of their original wargear options for what's on the list. This allows them to take pairs of things.
Also, if captains in power armour cannot take paired lightning claws, then why is there a photo of one in the codex on p108 which shows the commander figures you can buy?

Back to English. The construction and/or means that either word can be used in the sentence. So "may replace his bolt pistol and chainsword with a [i.e., one] power fist." Alternative wording "may replace his bolt pistol or chainsword with a [i.e., one] power fist." Either way, you get only one power fist. Notice the difference in the Captain with TDA entry where it specifies that each of two different weapons may be exchanged for a lt claw but not a pwr fist. result: only one power fist, but two lt claws possible.

Yes but neither does the codex say that after replacing the bp OR the chainsword with A powerfist, you can't also replace the other with A powerfist.

Man.. this is gonna make my future Angry Marines sad.. course.. Codex trumps Rulebooks.. lol

-Porkuslime

You can't ignore the fact that some entries allow for options to be taken as a pair. The assault sergeant entry being the prime example. The inclusion of "pair of lighning claws" in that entry, and its exclusion in others, is dispositive on this issue. If you ignore this fact, you have to argue that the codex is internally inconsistent in order for a tactical sergeant to be able to take multiples of entry options, which is a huge assumption on your part.

Brice

Of corse it's inconsistent and full of typos, it's GW!

The double claw for the assault sergeant is clearly a typo.

And you are of course allowed to replace both bolt pistol and chainsword/bolter for the same weapon. You are never told you can, but you aren't told you can take two different weapons either.

If only one item was allowed to be used the entry would state: "Replace bolt pistol or chainsword with:"

That would mean that you could replace either weapon with a power fist but not both of them.

By including the word 'and', we have the option of replacing both original weapons with anything on the list; that means that paired weapons are possible.

So 'and/or' means that you can replace the bolt pistol with a power fist OR you can replace the chainsword with a power fist, but it also means you can replace a bolt pistol with a power fist AND a chainsword with a power fist giving you twin power fists like ol' Marnie himself.

JCarter, your interpretation is incorrect. Page 128 clearly states that the options to replace apply to neither, either or both of the original weapons.

The bolt pistol and chainsword are not counted as a single unit as they are seperate weapons. If we followed the logic that they were a single unit then replacing the bolt pistol and chainsword with one of the listed items would mean that the captain would be left with a single weapon, obviously this is not the case.

In this case 'and' means the option to upgrade applies to both the bolt pistol and chainsword, not as you suggested that both weapons are replaced for a single listed item.

The options under TDA are not relevant as it is clearly stated what can be replaced with what; the confusion has been about power amoured marines.
Overall the marines in TDA are very limited in their choices and I guess the reason for that is to stop everyone having terminator HQ units. The current rules clearly promote power amoured commanders by giving them lots more options.

looks like this is one for the FAQ no ones going to agree ... my veiw is that a pair counts as 2 so you replace both with it; if you are going to replace your bolt pistol with a power fist and replace your chainsword with a power fist, you're going to pay an extra 25p which is a waste for one more attack. ok its your call, personaly i think a melta bombs for 5pts is going to work out better... and if you get in CC with a Wrathlord or something you can't hurt? fail you're LD test fall back 3D6" and go after some thing else.

edit @: cadben thanks i have a blind spot for things like that

The word is 'your', you're is short for you are.

As for what you put, I agree.

The word is wrote, not put.

Grammar check fail.

Lordhat wrote:The word is wrote, not put.

Grammar check fail.

Actually, typed is the correct word. You write with a pen or pencil, or possibly crayon in your case. Put is more correct than wrote mate.



Tri, not a problem. I've found myself spelling things wrongly simply because I spend so much time on the net looking at bad spelling. I had very unforgiving teachers when it came to spelling but I'm grateful for their efforts.

Can you Asshats start another thread about internet typos and get outta here?!

Sheesh.

I think the point on a pair of LC's for the Assault Sergeant is to let him keep a pistol. Funny that he is the only one worded that way, other than Assault Termies.

I think it is intended to let you purchase pairs of items, really pricey, but there it is. What I think should be more harshly dealt with is those who read pg. 128 to mean you can make a model a Swiss Army Knife and keep the bolt pistol/CCW and keep taking options like it was a shopping spree!

Homer

No, cadbren. "And/or does not mean what you said. The construction means that either word can be used alone in the sentence. If you use the "and", then both weapons must be replaced for a single claw (or fist). If you select the "or", then one may be replaced, but not the other. The word "or" is exclusive in this context.

JCarter, that is silly. Why would you choose to replace both weapons for only one Option when you can get that Option by replacing JUST one weapon?

Page 128 explains it pretty well (at least in the English version). With two replaceable weapons, you can keep them both, replace one, or replace both. Each replacement entitles the model to one of the given Options in that section of their entry. If GW had wanted to limit a model to selecting an Option only once when replacing both weapons, they would have spelled it out on page 128.

The Assault Sgt can have the two PFs as Deathmachine asked about (previously confirmed). The Assault Sgt can have a gun and a pair of LCs (as has been mentioned). The Assault Sgt could also end up with 2 pairs of LCs (also mentioned before) since he has two replaceable weapons (this gives no game benefit beyond the +1A for having two LCs, but it can be purchased, and would make an interesting model ).

5th does not have any special meaning for the term "pair" as it did before in 40k, a model just needs to have two of the same weapon for PF/TH/LC to get the +1A benefit. For those that think GW will "close this loophole" and remove the choice of the same Option twice, why do they have a Chapter Master pictured on page 52 with 2 Thunder Hammers, if he has no way to purchase it? Yes, it could just be "Rule of Cool", but I doubt it, using two Thunder Hammers was mentioned as a SM perk at one of the recent seminars and they did not imply then that it was for Terminators only. I admit that they might kill the dual pairs of LCs with a FAQ though.

YES I KNEW I COULD USE 2 thanks temprus it just seemed worded kinda weird.

"What are you doing in the ordnance room, Sarge?"
"I just came to pick up a lightning claw, Master Sergeant."
"OK, Sarge, just turn in your chainsword or your bolt pistol or both and take a claw off the rack."
"Thanks, Master Sergeant, I'll turn in my chainsword." Goes to the rack and turns to leave.
"Hey, Master Sergeant, I'll turn in my pistol too and get another claw."
"Whoah, there Sarge. I said turn in your pistol or sword or both. You wanna turn in both, that's up to you, but you only get one claw."
"But I already turned in a sword, Master Sergeant, now I want to turn in a pistol and get another claw."
"You think I just fell off the watermelon truck? That sword and pistol are registered to you. If you want to turn in both, OK, but you're not walking out of here with two claws for a pistol and sword. Read the instructions right there on the wall. And don't try any of your dog-robbing ploys on me. I was a sergeant when you were still getting implants."
"Yes, Master Sergeant." Leaves.

that was stupid and pointless.

So by the both for one logic, those devastator squads are all illegal... up to four marines may replace their boltguns with one of the following.. so four guys can give up their boltguns to lug around one heavy weapon... And I'd better not see anyone carring four heavy bolters, or four missile launchers in one dev squad either... since you can't take the same option twice.

where does it say you cant take the same option twice???

Aome argue you can't take two PF's because you're only allowed a given option once. Others because you can't trade your BP for one, and your CCW for the other.

Obviously, either of those logical applications would render Devastator squads comicially ridiculous.

this has nothing to do with squads this is for sgts. only they can be given any wargear from the space marine weapons list. it has nothing to do with a normal marine taking 4 lascannons.

Actually it would be four normal marines taking 1 lascannon.

And the point was- its basically the same wording... the Sgt may exchange... up to four may exchange...

And by the way:

If you do apply the same logic to virtually the same wording:

Your devastator squad will have either 1 heavy weapon, or 3.

With the and/or crowd, up to four may trade their boltguns for one lascannon.

With the no option twice crowd, up to four may replace for three different options:

Option 1
The ML/HB/MM
Option 2
The PC
Option 3
The LC.

you still have no point this is for an assualt sgt not devs. sgts may replace there wargear and weapons it does not say you cant take two of the same thing. what you are talking about is different it says up to 4 models may replace there bolters for heavy weapons. there for you cant take more thats easy enuff to see. but it does not put restrictions on sgts ie. it does not say he may only replace one item and can not have 2 of the same things

Deathmachine wrote:where does it say you cant take the same option twice???

I'm curious about this one as well. I assumed it carried over from 4th ed, but I can't actually find it anywhere.

Its not there Sourclams. I was trying to refute both that position, and the and/or meaning trade both weapons for one weapon arguements by pointing to another entry with very similar wording that with similar application would be worthless.

If the Sgt can only trade his bp, his CCW or both his BP And his CCW for a power fist, then:

A devastator squad may have 1, 2, 3, or 4 marines trade their bolter for one lascannon, etc.


If the Sgt can trade his BP for X, and his CCW for Y, then a devastator squad may:

Have one marine trade his boltgun for a ML, MM or HB.
Have one marine trade his boltgun for a PC
and
Have one marine trade his boltgun for a LC.

Yeah, I'm with the 2 powerfist people on this one. My sergeant can replace his chainsword with a powerfist. He can then replace his bolt pistol with a powerfist. He now has two powerfists and no other weapons.

Now, on the other hand, if we accept the and/or statement to mean that any one choice can be swapped for the bolt pistol or the chainsword, my sergeant can then replace his chainsword with two lightning claws and retain his bolt pistol.

If anything, the way this entry is written makes the twin lightning claw combo more powerful as it also allows him to retain a shooting attack.

No need to bring devastator squads, 4th edition, 3rd edition, 1st edition, or your FLGS rules chipmunk into it. It's all straight up out of 5th ed rules.

Actually I was pointing at similar wording in the same codex to show that two fists was the intended as-written.

Rigggghhtttt....

Prove otherwise. Do so within 5th ed rules.

i would say you and me are right sourclams you can have 2 power fists. i keep seeing people say you cant because you cant have 2 of the same weapon but they never tell us where it says this in the BGB.

sourclams wrote:Prove otherwise. Do so within 5th ed rules.

You want me to prove what we've both been saying using the 5th Edition rules?

OK...

You may exchange X and/or Y for Z1, Z2, or Z3.

Up to four marines may exchange A for B, C or D.

If And/or means X and Y, or X, or Y for Z1, etc- well that would be stupid, as noone in their right mind would trade two of something good, when they only have to trade 1 of something good. Beyond that, Or wouldn't be necessary, they could have said Trade X, Y, or X and Y. So conventional use of And/Or says one or both, each for Choice 1, 2, or 3. Likewise, that would end up with four devastators putting their right hand in, and shooting the lascannon all about, then putting their right hand out to do the hokey pokey- if for no other reason than to avoid collecting dust on the LOL shelf.

If you're limited to one choice per option as other folks have mentioned, there can never be four heavy weapons in a devastator squad, so up to four trading their boltguns would still make no sense.

Thus comparing the entry for a sergeant to the entry for the devastator squad, we can see that He can make two swaps, and can take the same resultant option each time he makes a swap.

i see what your saying breton but it really doesnt apply to the 2 power fist thing but owell its time to end this post for good i think.

Err, sorry, I was more referring to Deathmachine's "Riiiiiight" post, which I took to be sarcasm. I don't really agree or disagree with your logic regarding Devastators. I'm just looking at how an Assault sergeant can exchange only his chainsword, and get two lightning claws in return as the profile lists dual LCs as one option for selection.

Right, then change your bolt pistol for a Plasma Pistol.

In the end it'd make for one expensive-ass sergeant with interesting modeling options.

Knark

I'd convert a plasma pistol to fit onto one of the LC gloves ala Kantor/Vulkan/Marneus.

even if it were questionable, if it was wysiwyg I'd let my opponent do it. I mean they're then paying as much as a cheap character for a guy that still only gets to swing 3 times in close combat

NaZ

Four, he's got a jump pack, he's probably getting the charge, but yeah :p

ah yes.. forgot that sargents get 2 base.

even still.. thats almost as many points as a chaplain, or other goodness.

if my opponent really feels like wasting that many points, I'd have no problems letting them field it.

NaZ

Its got upside too, he can't be picked out in hand to hand like a chaplain. Still, you're right, its not a sgt I would field... if I'm spending that many points I'd be looking at TH/SS

have any of you guys played against a 10 man assualt squad with 2 flamers and 2 power fists it packs alot of kick. weather it cost alot or not that really doesnt matter ive used this squad since 3rd ED and it has not let me down.

Really? I was under the impression assault squads were capped at 1PF per squad since the end of 2nd.

ive been using 2 PF at gw and at flgs since 3rd

To be honest, as long as you agree with your opponent before you start a game, it shouldn't be a problem.