With the idea that hitting supporting characters is kinda an issue, I have a Snipetarii variant of my previously posted list that... oddly looks viable. It skips the gimmick of t1 Fulgurites and goes for five Arquebus instead with a TPD for re-rolls.
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment +1 CP
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Datasmith
[52]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array
[130]
[1372]
Stygies Battalion +3 CP
HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
Autocaduceus or Raiment
[125]
Enginseer
[52]
Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
Arquebus
[65]
Fast Attack:
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
[626]
[1998]
Same formula as the other list overall, but I did tuck back in a Datasmith. Just in case. It does mean we wind up with a lot of CP to burn on more Wraths throughout the game (up to three turns worth!).
Yoda79 wrote: You must not take in controls list and copy it. Its a potent player and uses lists that fit his playstyle. Sure strong sure one of the v best players does not mean you ll fit the same role. Even in 7th he used war conv with conclave extremely potent but some tours where first some last its how precise he is.
Most of the cons we have already identify and talked in forums. Battalions 2 major detachments etc. Snipers as well i have said many times best gun in game neutron and our arq you should use them.
I was familiar with in control thinking and its not the best list. Its a list anticipating the ig spams and current way of thinking in the game with ig previous winner. He tried to be on top of the enemy lists not makinga generall list.
So i dont say he is not one of the best sure is but you need to think these issues according to the tour and timming the game plays. Smart of him to maximize the robots with wrath spending less vs horde lists and priests.
Datasmith is the way to go. Dont be lured in not including one. With a list heavy 5+ robots you must or risk being kittedmfrom mobile armies and out ranged. 52 points for good healing option not to spend a cp move robots second round etc must remain in such lists. Do not risk it youmll regret it if matched with mobile enemies heavy los etc.he is definetly not stupid.
Now i wish we all knew our enemies will swarm troops but they wont. And 2 neuteonagers are not enough 4-5 robots 3 neutronagers is the optimal i have played many games 2 will not be enough for dealing with all lists. And since we got limited cp s you cant waste wrath on every low str shots. Taking a knight down with wrath when shooting str 6 shots wont always do it. Same goes for priests and inflitrators. Obviously he decided to take best units for wounding with wrarh. He still gonna waste priests holding obj in heavy armor lists and definetly change some details.
Snipers do work but need 4+ to make a difference when you need.
Icarus already said no need with mars.
Dragoons work better in bigger unit atm either take a unit of 3+ 4 for priest points and can be buffed to 4+ taser or not at all. Its tax since you can have troops with -1 now cheaper. And need for cp s. Though i would take a large group of dragoons better than priests. As long as he uses the range ones if he is using the melee ones then he is using all our moryal capabilities and i support it. Only way to pass high inv. Dragoons str 8 is the best atm but cant seem to test them atm. And making a group like that 3+ seem hard to multi charge maneuver etc still better if you dont have 20 priests. But can defend better. So good luck making your decisions.
Smart list good thinking and close to the best possible atm.
Could you provide links to these people/lists? I don't have much context here.
About the Stygies -2 to hit. Remember it is outside 12". So the front ranks will be able to shoot within 12" if your opponent goes first. Still works against static artillery.
The only issue here is that you aren't doing it with Cawl, because he has the mandatory Static Psalm-Code trait and let's be real, Cawl is the best HQ we have. So, it would be a bit gimmicky to push the repair aspects, especially when you have to blow CP, which we have precious few of.
Does Cawl really need to take the Static Psalm-Code? He's Mars, but does that mean he has the Mars warlord trait written in? (I know for a fact that his relic is built-in though.)
The only issue here is that you aren't doing it with Cawl, because he has the mandatory Static Psalm-Code trait and let's be real, Cawl is the best HQ we have. So, it would be a bit gimmicky to push the repair aspects, especially when you have to blow CP, which we have precious few of.
Does Cawl really need to take the Static Psalm-Code? He's Mars, but does that mean he has the Mars warlord trait written in? (I know for a fact that his relic is built-in though.)
I think so, but can't confirm as I don't have the 'Dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote: About the Stygies -2 to hit. Remember it is outside 12". So the front ranks will be able to shoot within 12" if your opponent goes first. Still works against static artillery.
Wulfey wrote: About the Stygies -2 to hit. Remember it is outside 12". So the front ranks will be able to shoot within 12" if your opponent goes first. Still works against static artillery.
Depends. If you know the movement of the attacking unit, you can deploy a hair over 12" plus that amount away from them.
You're out of luck with deep strikers, but hey, 33% chance of Gets Hot is funny.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: With the idea that hitting supporting characters is kinda an issue, I have a Snipetarii variant of my previously posted list that... oddly looks viable. It skips the gimmick of t1 Fulgurites and goes for five Arquebus instead with a TPD for re-rolls.
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment +1 CP
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Datasmith
[52]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array
[130]
[1372]
Stygies Battalion +3 CP
HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
Autocaduceus or Raiment
[125]
Enginseer
[52]
Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
Arquebus
[65]
Fast Attack:
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
Sydonian Dragoon
[68]
[626]
[1998]
Same formula as the other list overall, but I did tuck back in a Datasmith. Just in case. It does mean we wind up with a lot of CP to burn on more Wraths throughout the game (up to three turns worth!).
Not viable in competitive sorry. 3 seperate dragoons no point. Thats the problem cant fit as detachment need to pick a unit of 3-4+ and utilise it.
Mars will not work with less than 2 battalions of cp. We said it like 200 times. You lists cant move must replace icarus with neutronager and find meat shield. Cant have so many rangers with arq with only one batt. As for troops ok in controls list has rangers but 2 * rangers 1* vanguard best atm.
Wulfey wrote: About the Stygies -2 to hit. Remember it is outside 12". So the front ranks will be able to shoot within 12" if your opponent goes first. Still works against static artillery.
Depends. If you know the movement of the attacking unit, you can deploy a hair over 12" plus that amount away from them.
You're out of luck with deep strikers, but hey, 33% chance of Gets Hot is funny.
dont forget the 10+ triple melta gun deepstrikes you can expect to see in tau lists. Well maybe not ten but the winner of one of the recent gts was using 5+ commanders in a supreme command detachment all armed with triple meltas
Not viable in competitive sorry. 3 seperate dragoons no point. Thats the problem cant fit as detachment need to pick a unit of 3-4+ and utilise it.
Mars will not work with less than 2 battalions of cp. We said it like 200 times. You lists cant move must replace icarus with neutronager and find meat shield. Cant have so many rangers with arq with only one batt. As for troops ok in controls list has rangers but 2 * rangers 1* vanguard best atm.
Uh... the point of three Dragoons is to screen, not to use them offensively via Strategems. If you want to use the Dragoon bulldozer, sure, go for 4+ in a unit. That is not what I am doing here.
Mars works fine with 7 CP at its disposal. Wrath is only 2CP and really two uses should sweep away most major threats. What else is so demanding of the CP that we need two Battalions? \
We said like 200 times
We who? lol
You sound like you are just parroting whatever you saw InControl talking about. And "best atm" is a nonsense statement. Nothing is best yet, because our 'Dex isn't out, nor is the inevitable FAQ after it.
And replace Icarus with Neutron? Dude, I got two Neutrons. I also need to be able to knock a flyer out of the sky without always relying on the Robots. The Icarus does this and well.
Wulfey wrote: About the Stygies -2 to hit. Remember it is outside 12". So the front ranks will be able to shoot within 12" if your opponent goes first. Still works against static artillery.
Depends. If you know the movement of the attacking unit, you can deploy a hair over 12" plus that amount away from them.
You're out of luck with deep strikers, but hey, 33% chance of Gets Hot is funny.
dont forget the 10+ triple melta gun deepstrikes you can expect to see in tau lists. Well maybe not ten but the winner of one of the recent gts was using 5+ commanders in a supreme command detachment all armed with triple meltas
This is why I keep saying admech needs like 60 conscripts to really work. If you have 60+ guys you can actually push the tau commander deep strike more than 18" from your Dakkabots for two solid turns. Vanguard/Ranger screen is going to let you down by turn 2. The tau melta bomb is hands down one of the deadliest thing against an admech gunline.
Wulfey wrote: About the Stygies -2 to hit. Remember it is outside 12". So the front ranks will be able to shoot within 12" if your opponent goes first. Still works against static artillery.
Depends. If you know the movement of the attacking unit, you can deploy a hair over 12" plus that amount away from them.
You're out of luck with deep strikers, but hey, 33% chance of Gets Hot is funny.
dont forget the 10+ triple melta gun deepstrikes you can expect to see in tau lists. Well maybe not ten but the winner of one of the recent gts was using 5+ commanders in a supreme command detachment all armed with triple meltas
This is why I keep saying admech needs like 60 conscripts to really work. If you have 60+ guys you can actually push the tau commander deep strike more than 18" from your Dakkabots for two solid turns. Vanguard/Ranger screen is going to let you down by turn 2. The tau melta bomb is hands down one of the deadliest thing against an admech gunline.
Not gonna do it, conscripts are going to get hit hard by the nerf bat anyways if they're in even more lists than they already currently are (which is most top competitive lists)
What knight would you run instead? Also 550 points? Have the points values changed since index or do you mean with a couple of shiny extras?
Like @em_en_oh_pee said, the crusader is like 580ish all decked out with the battle cannon and gatling + the stormspear pod. It is super good, to be sure, but I loved the 6 damage fist option If there is the possibility for knights to get rerolls, expect them to be back with a vengeance.
Right now my list has an errant with a gauntlet and an icarus autocannon due to no points left over for the stormspear pod. He is fully magnetized though so I can go gallant if I wanted or crusader as well. All based on the role I want him to play. In the process of painting him right now, and good gracious is there lots to prime black, even with my airbrush
Wulfey wrote: About the Stygies -2 to hit. Remember it is outside 12". So the front ranks will be able to shoot within 12" if your opponent goes first. Still works against static artillery.
Depends. If you know the movement of the attacking unit, you can deploy a hair over 12" plus that amount away from them.
You're out of luck with deep strikers, but hey, 33% chance of Gets Hot is funny.
dont forget the 10+ triple melta gun deepstrikes you can expect to see in tau lists. Well maybe not ten but the winner of one of the recent gts was using 5+ commanders in a supreme command detachment all armed with triple meltas
This is why I keep saying admech needs like 60 conscripts to really work. If you have 60+ guys you can actually push the tau commander deep strike more than 18" from your Dakkabots for two solid turns. Vanguard/Ranger screen is going to let you down by turn 2. The tau melta bomb is hands down one of the deadliest thing against Anything.
Ditto, but i use grey knights for screen/alpha strike. Conscripts probably work better but not my cup o tea. i like going first getting two solid rounds of shooting off before i really have to start worrying about Close combat i don't chose. (and with grey knights with rapid fire 2 storm bolters and a power sword you can charge with after firing now, i chose that a lot these days)
Not viable in competitive sorry. 3 seperate dragoons no point. Thats the problem cant fit as detachment need to pick a unit of 3-4+ and utilise it.
Mars will not work with less than 2 battalions of cp. We said it like 200 times. You lists cant move must replace icarus with neutronager and find meat shield. Cant have so many rangers with arq with only one batt. As for troops ok in controls list has rangers but 2 * rangers 1* vanguard best atm.
Uh... the point of three Dragoons is to screen, not to use them offensively via Strategems. If you want to use the Dragoon bulldozer, sure, go for 4+ in a unit. That is not what I am doing here.
Mars works fine with 7 CP at its disposal. Wrath is only 2CP and really two uses should sweep away most major threats. What else is so demanding of the CP that we need two Battalions? \
We said like 200 times
We who? lol
You sound like you are just parroting whatever you saw InControl talking about. And "best atm" is a nonsense statement. Nothing is best yet, because our 'Dex isn't out, nor is the inevitable FAQ after it.
And replace Icarus with Neutron? Dude, I got two Neutrons. I also need to be able to knock a flyer out of the sky without always relying on the Robots. The Icarus does this and well.
Im not here to tolerate your tone. I write in all forums and im in my county team. I dont parot nothing you can go see dates on my posts. Giving you advice is for free if you dont like it play what you like just dont quote me kid. You can go play what you loke see me care! Next time you quote me do it with respect since i care not what you think. There are the profiles there are the posts go see them. I dont answer to you nor this is who posts first or a competition. We all try to contribute if you dont like what i say fine but wont tolerate your tine nor writting vs me. Got it? Ignored.
He sure can so the rest ? We all got opinions and if dont like it he can ignore posts. What he cant do is talk like that . When none talked to him directly. Its a forum i can give my opinion. And i will not tolerate smart talking. Dont know if in your country you praise disrespectful language in Greece we dont. All contribute all got right pointers all respected . Dont have to tolerate none nor he needs a lawyer. He could think twice before opening his hole got it?
But i presume in your countries respect and proper behaviour is not being taught.
And if you like that list so much and he is so pro why dont you go play it.
Yoda79 wrote: Manners are given obiously not to all as it seems in your part of the world
are you kidding, this is america, arseholes and idiots are EVERYWHERE. are you telling me it's not like that in greece? cause i'll learn greek and hop on a flight tomorrow.
I dont see anyone directng offensive tone or language from Greece to none. I offered my opinion.
We are 10 milion people and gave all to civilazation. We got unique words for being mannered people and we taught democracy. No we are not acting like cave man where we try to contribute. I dont spend my time here to prove nothing. And i do it so all can benefit . Why is hard to accept lots of people got manners? No i dont tolerate none simce i just tod free advice. Dont like it dont wnat it your choise but when you direct quotes on me you ll respect as i do. Else go talk to you buddies and ask them aboit your pro list. Wich is also in the wrong threat to begin with. Spamming lists in tactics. But cant hide some got no manners one way or another. Ignored both and who cares either way he is clueless. Last 20 pages he has said nothing of value both of them. So end of story
Please act like proper Adepts of the Mechanicus, and not squabbling meatbags. This page is getting ridiculous. One could say it was already ridiculous last page. There is no need to insult each others' nationalities.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary
Automatically Appended Next Post: I disagree. It has been confirmed multiple times that no LoS charges are a thing and a tactical decision. It goes hand in hand with charging out of flamer range to avoid the flamers.
Funny, that looks like my list, only I have 2 Icarus Crawlers instead of 2 Kastelans, and I use Dragoons instead of an Auxiliary Detachment of Electro-Priests.
Yes, I do believe that charge distance is a distance that has nothing to do with LOS. Overwatch also does not care about LOS. Am I mistaken?
SilverAlien wrote: So, I was thinking, we keep focusing on the new priests as our anti infantry, but all the strong horde armies rely on characters, be in changling, the cheap IGHQs, assassins, or even orks with their buffing units.
A unit of rangers with two arquebus went down 10 points, and with Stygies is quite a bit tougher to shoot down. Can even hold one back to infiltrate to make sure you can get LoS.
I'm going to go back to a sniper heavier build like I used for a bit and see what happens. I think three units with 6 rifles total might be a much better investment overall.
Eh... I am not so sure about that. Arquebuses are expensive, and they rarely make back their points in time. (Six arquebuses is another Kastelan or a Crawler.) Also, it interferes a bit with their ability to serve as sacrificial body blockers.
You would probably want these Rangers in a Mars detachment. Rerolling those shots is important.
Imperium has knights. I still deny knights getting any AdMech rules. They're irrelevant as I'll never use them until someone proves me that 1 knight is a good decision in a tournament
its not.and never will be. Knights are for fun not winning.
Dude. Knights easily had the highest win rate in the pre-codex metagame. There are obstacles to them winning tournaments though: 1) Some tournaments just flat-out ban Knight armies. 2) Knights get shut down super hard by certain armies, and you pretty much have to go undefeated to win a tournament.
gendoikari87 wrote: It's likely only going to be -1 on the dragoons half the time because the strategem only applies more than 12" away and dragons advance up the field.
Way to find the cloud in the silver lining? Dragoons are practically unkillable at more than 12". If you want to kill them, you have to move things into within 12", things that will likely get charged the next turn.
dont forget the 10+ triple melta gun deepstrikes you can expect to see in tau lists. Well maybe not ten but the winner of one of the recent gts was using 5+ commanders in a supreme command detachment all armed with triple meltas
That will never happen because anyone with experience playing Tau knows to castle against them.
Mod warning. A few users in this thread really need to cool their jets. Don't ruin this thread for others, be adults and post as such within the rules of the forum, especially Rule #1 which is be polite. Thank you
Do you think we'll get point reductions on things like ruststalkers and destroyers/breachers in the FAQ release afterward?
Fingers crossed. Otherwise, most of what has been discussed the last few pages is likely going to stick. So, Mars + Stygies for pure AdMech as a go-to, with small variations in what folks bring. How many of what and weapon preference.
The real number one seller and an item never to leave the top of the charts, is the Space Marine Tactical box. This iteration of the models is also still fairly new, and when you need grav-weapons you really have no choice. To put things in perspective at one point the Space Marine Tactical box has sold more units in one month than the entire Fantasy range for the same period, and you wonder why we have Age of Sigmar.
Now granted selling more than sigmar isn't a high bar
1. Betrayal At Calth and Burning Of Prospero sold so well because it offered different armor types for Marines and Terminators. I bought three Betrayals because I use Tactical Marines for my Sternguard and anything else, as I HATE bling.
2. It sold well because it's got a bunch of parts that are useful. That doesn't make the Tactical Marines any good.
Like, what the hell are you trying to prove? Marines, a popular army, had a kit sell super well?
See, I knew ignoring yoda 10+ pages ago was a good decision :p
Anyway, I about multiple Neutron Onagers - that's what Reece said. I guess because they can quite easily miss. and not do their job, while Icarus at least does something most of the time.
Geoff lost closely because his 10 man ranger screen allowed a 20-man unit of blinged plaguemarines to slide into his 6 dakkastellon gun line. As someone who plans on running the 6 dakkastelon list, this was a mix of bad tactics and strategy.
Tactics: a 10 man screen that is 1 inch away from your dakkestelon line is no screen at all, it is actually a slingshot to allow overwatchless charges into the robots. For screens to prevent the slide into combat trick the screen must be 4.1" away from the protected unit from the enemy facing front edge of the screening base to the enemy facing front edge of the screened unit.
Strategy: 32 rangers with a sprinkling of sniper rifles is a poor screen. The problem with 6 robots is you run out of points for both (1) a good screen and (2) some kind of counter assault. My old list had celestine/assassins/conscripts. Adding more robots eats celestine and the assassins. Putting in rangers eats the conscripts. Strategically, I think you need to make a serious commitment to screen. Maybe go down to 5 robots, drop the CDS, full commitment to castling behind a 60 body screen.
EDIT: yes to above. Icarus is consistent and can be made even more consistent with an easy +2 to hit strategem.
Bought myself another Dragoon today and played two games. I don't have the new codex rules yet and didn't play any of the leaked/shown codex changes.
Dragoons, don't often kill things due to their lack of AP (soon to change) but they tie up enemy rifles squads really well. I still intend to keep my Vanguard as my rifle squads and screens, but am more open to using them help screen my force. But the way I ended up playing them is both distracfex and aggressive.
They moved on both my flanks as my TPD and three breachers and three Destroyers foot/tread slogged up the table throwing torsion cannons and grav at anything which looked at me funny. Vanguard walked slightly ahead and a few times advanced and shot at penality to pepper targets of oppertunity or jump on an objective. This was also the first time I have used my dunecrawlers as mobile gun support. One Nuetron and one Iccaris. The +1 LD boost is invaluable and reroll to both the Skitarri and the Kataphratons as I never had to really worry about moral.
I think I will consistently take about 2-4 dragoons (need to buy two more; as I proxied two). Their mobility and -1 to be shot is/was super handy.
As a side note, anyone think twin Lazcannons are worth any points on my chicken walkers? I magnetized them so I can switch between which one I want to use, but their relatively high costs and fragility have me not wanting to take them and just pay the extra points to get another dunecrawler instead.
rvd1ofakind wrote: See, I knew ignoring yoda 10+ pages ago was a good decision :p
Anyway, I about multiple Neutron Onagers - that's what Reece said. I guess because they can quite easily miss. and not do their job, while Icarus at least does something most of the time.
As in, if you run Neutron Crawlers, run multiples? Sure, I guess?
Icarus with Cawl is definitely the more reliable TAC Crawler.
Tactics: a 10 man screen that is 1 inch away from your dakkestelon line is no screen at all, it is actually a slingshot to allow overwatchless charges into the robots. For screens to prevent the slide into combat trick the screen must be 4.1" away from the protected unit from the enemy facing front edge of the screening base to the enemy facing front edge of the screened unit.
Sorry, I didn't understand this the way you said it. I've always just put my Skitarii models >3" away from my Kastelans so they don't consolidate into the 1" bubble of my Kastelans. They can start at 1" away from my Skitarii, move 1", then move 25mm past base of my model, then another .99";, which is just shy of 1" from my Kastelans. (This is assuming the enemy is 25mm; if they are larger, I move my line up further.) Is this what you're saying as well?
As a side note, anyone think twin Lazcannons are worth any points on my chicken walkers? I magnetized them so I can switch between which one I want to use, but their relatively high costs and fragility have me not wanting to take them and just pay the extra points to get another dunecrawler instead.
A squad of 3-4 and Stygies dogma and stratagem can be a very powerful backline threat.
Yeah, 3.1" between front to back of bases will work if the base of the screening unit is longer than 1". I heard it was 4.1" from front of screening unit base because a super trickey player would just ignore your base and say "I move between your models 3". Since the opponent had to get within 1" of the screening unit to make the charge, a 4.1" gap from enemy facing of base of screening unit will guarantee that your opponent cannot cheese his way into consolidating past the screen.
The two underscore lines need to be 4.1" to guarantee ahead of time that your opponent cannot consolidate 3" into the protected unit. Anything shorter and squeezing between screening units can lead to being within 1" of the protected unit.
EDIT: at ITC tournaments i go to I fully expect my opponent to cheat and push models, so I pre measure and explain this to them when it matters.
Wulfey wrote: Yeah, 3.1" between front to back of bases will work if the base of the screening unit is longer than 1". I heard it was 4.1" from front of screening unit base because a super trickey player would just ignore your base and say "I move between your models 3". Since the opponent had to get within 1" of the screening unit to make the charge, a 4.1" gap from enemy facing of base of screening unit will guarantee that your opponent cannot cheese his way into consolidating past the screen.
The tricky player is not following RAW. Your consolidation move has to put you closer to the unit you charged. The trick is to be 1" away, then .99" away, but behind the other unit. (Doesn't work on Dragoons, fortunately. It takes more than 3" to get around it... which is why we also have the pile-in problem.)
I loved Geoff on the podcast:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/176206339 00:40:58
Like WOW. Telling it like it is. He joked(?) that ruststalkers should be 50-60 pts less. So I was like: sure, I'll humor him....................................
I mean.............
Yeah..................
Even with their price cut in HALF, Ruststalkers are worse than conscripts in durability and comparable in damage. (Melee should do more than ranged, right?). Not to mention Conscripts being: troops(so obsec), having more bodies(take up more space and capture objetices), immune to morale (with comissar), can take orders and do shananigans.
He played a nasty nid list with 5 Murlocs, about 60 Genestealer, Shrimp and Swarmlord.
Made the mistake to kill murlocs first. Genestealer charged turn 1 and swarmed through the lines. they got to the Kastelans turn 2 which meant game over. We redid the whole thing and played again. I deployed in a corner and set up the screen very tight. killed the first genestealer unit with wrath mof mars and 2 murlocs, dropped the infiltrator in the back to harrass. he went for the inifltrators with the swarmlord and shoved genestealers into my face. 5++ and fnp needs at least 3 dakkastelans with wrath of mars and protector to kill them.
this match up is decided in turn 2. either i kill most if not all genestealer and the swarmlord or i lose because all the dakka will be tight up. I missed my datasmith though...not sure if its smart to go out without him.
Got a question for you lago and your test game i see you used graia did you had the warlord trait shooting in melee? And can you post if you try with rangers thanks!
Might work better if you take only a unit of 3 dragoons.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I loved Geoff on the podcast:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/176206339 00:40:58
Like WOW. Telling it like it is. He joked(?) that ruststalkers should be 50-60 pts less. So I was like: sure, I'll humor him....................................
I mean.............
Yeah..................
Even with their price cut in HALF, Ruststalkers are worse than conscripts in durability and comparable in damage. (Melee should do more than ranged, right?). Not to mention Conscripts being: troops(so obsec), having more bodies(take up more space and capture objetices), immune to morale (with comissar), can take orders and do shananigans.
That's more an issue with Conscripts being ridiculous. I won't comment if Rustalkers are any good as I've not used them, but as someone that's faced Conscripts I can definitely comment on that.
He played a nasty nid list with 5 Murlocs, about 60 Genestealer, Shrimp and Swarmlord.
Made the mistake to kill murlocs first. Genestealer charged turn 1 and swarmed through the lines. they got to the Kastelans turn 2 which meant game over. We redid the whole thing and played again. I deployed in a corner and set up the screen very tight. killed the first genestealer unit with wrath mof mars and 2 murlocs, dropped the infiltrator in the back to harrass. he went for the inifltrators with the swarmlord and shoved genestealers into my face. 5++ and fnp needs at least 3 dakkastelans with wrath of mars and protector to kill them.
this match up is decided in turn 2. either i kill most if not all genestealer and the swarmlord or i lose because all the dakka will be tight up. I missed my datasmith though...not sure if its smart to go out without him.
Yeah, Genestealers can be rough. Ironically, this is one instance where taking the Stygies warlord trait and weapon relics helps. In games where you almost guaranteedly will be fighting in close quarters eventually, you might want an insurance policy.
I just think GW/testers made a huge mistake when evaluating durability. No model should cost less than 5. With Brimstones and Conscripts costing 3 (and there are plenty models that are just a bit worse so they'll be used when these 2 get nerfed) Anti-Horde weapons are mostly BETTER against VEHICLES/MONSTERS than actual HORDES. This is so stupid.
How do you beat a horde of 3-4 pts garbage? Bring a horde of 3-4 pts garbage...
Got a question for you lago and your test game i see you used graia did you had the warlord trait shooting in melee? And can you post if you try with rangers thanks!
Might work better if you take only a unit of 3 dragoons.
Yeah i tried the Warlord trait. Underwhelming is what it is. In theory it could work but our troops are so flimsy that they will die in the first place most of the time, regardless of their 6+ pseudo fnp. Plus, if they are within 1 inch of the enemy I cant shoot anything else into them. They might work in order to break the kastelans free if tight up, but then you definitely dont want them to be rangers but vanguard. They are in a weird if they get charged then the WL trait does not help. It would be good to use if you charge and tie up enemies. but for that your vanguard/ranger have to be up front with the Wl in their back and I dont see that coming.
Graia has 2 good things, 1 CP Arcana and being able to deny the witch. And with the CP I am not so sure anymore. Will have to see against other armies.
What knight would you run instead? Also 550 points? Have the points values changed since index or do you mean with a couple of shiny extras?
Like @em_en_oh_pee said, the crusader is like 580ish all decked out with the battle cannon and gatling + the stormspear pod. It is super good, to be sure, but I loved the 6 damage fist option If there is the possibility for knights to get rerolls, expect them to be back with a vengeance.
Right now my list has an errant with a gauntlet and an icarus autocannon due to no points left over for the stormspear pod. He is fully magnetized though so I can go gallant if I wanted or crusader as well. All based on the role I want him to play. In the process of painting him right now, and good gracious is there lots to prime black, even with my airbrush
Got a question for you lago and your test game i see you used graia did you had the warlord trait shooting in melee? And can you post if you try with rangers thanks!
Might work better if you take only a unit of 3 dragoons.
Yeah i tried the Warlord trait. Underwhelming is what it is. In theory it could work but our troops are so flimsy that they will die in the first place most of the time, regardless of their 6+ pseudo fnp. Plus, if they are within 1 inch of the enemy I cant shoot anything else into them. They might work in order to break the kastelans free if tight up, but then you definitely dont want them to be rangers but vanguard. They are in a weird if they get charged then the WL trait does not help. It would be good to use if you charge and tie up enemies. but for that your vanguard/ranger have to be up front with the Wl in their back and I dont see that coming.
Graia has 2 good things, 1 CP Arcana and being able to deny the witch. And with the CP I am not so sure anymore. Will have to see against other armies.
Yes i use a complete graia battalion but with 2* rangers 1* vanguard +1 vang stygia 2* rangers snipers.i find my outer defence with pseudo 6+ fnp possible gem for anti psych and warlprd trait with +1 cp my auto include. Since Stygia can be applied in units i got deeper in my lines or the ones i use to inf.
I havent refined my list yet since i really believe the faq will change things still i use atm for testing.
Mars spearhead
Batt Graia warlord tpd
Batt stygia. 11 cps
Graia notes. Rangers seem better when shooting after my vanguard -1 tough. Cheaper and more range for incoming attacks. Also better threat range
When moving them in games going for obj and not in defence.
Only rangers worse with out vanguards so far. But their teaming is somehow extreme vs hordes if not wiped. An onager with broad spectrum and -1 hit stygia behind them seems to help increase my unit count to 7-8 on my graia batt and not worry for morale so much. Also graia 6+ morale help.
They are not ig conscripts but can shoot with the best infantry gun and defend better especially in range. Lower wound count is an issue but i prefer ad mech army. Tested any arc on them?
Atm i dont use dragoons. Planning to get a group inside but i find infiltrators better suited for Mars -stygia simce troops got -1 or 6fnp. Cp wise and shooting wise. Since i cant benefit from mars dual canticles on dragoons unless i walk them up the field. And dual canticle all gems buffing those sicarans with defauot deep strike is a good combo. How did that worked for you?? Did you use +1 hit for taser you use melee cantickes etc?? Any nice combinations for you in the field. I havent yet seen the full potential of gems dual canticles maybe a hq buff etc.
Might give us some dagoon offensive information. Str 8 -1 4+ taser not a joke with some buffs in a 3+ unit. But still walking them seems the way for me.
Heavy Support - 280 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1998 points 7 Command Points
After realizing the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative is only 1 CP and that a unit of 4 produces an average of 24 S8 AP-1 D2 attacks at WS2+... yeah, you can see what I did. I mean, I didn't realize how strong it was until I saw the math. These things just absolutely total transports and medium toughness units. I think 2x2 and 1x4 are the optimal concentrations. 2x2 for coverage and 1x4 for infiltration. In a really desperate situation, I can double wrap my artillery.
And yes, I do own 8 of these things. I just have to build another 2... sigh...
One burning question though: Do I move the Crawlers into the Mars detachment or divide them? Hmm...
Heavy Support - 280 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1998 points 7 Command Points
After realizing the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative is only 1 CP and that a unit of 4 produces an average of 24 S8 AP-1 D2 attacks at WS2+... yeah, you can see what I did. I mean, I didn't realize how strong it was until I saw the math. These things just absolutely total transports and medium toughness units. I think 2x2 and 1x4 are the optimal concentrations. 2x2 for coverage and 1x4 for infiltration. In a really desperate situation, I can double wrap my artillery.
And yes, I do own 8 of these things. I just have to build another 2... sigh...
One burning question though: Do I move the Crawlers into the Mars detachment or divide them? Hmm...
love the list. Dragoons are so so good. I am not even bothering with the priests anymore, I played 6 Dragoons in 7th and in 8th they are even more badass. I would put the Onager into the Mars detachment though, You want that reroll on the unreliable 3+ for that weapon. If you really want to play Icarus though..dont know...I prefer 2 Neutronagers and 1 Icarus if that.
Is Necromechanic that good? I feel it is an extreme risk you make a flimsy enginseer your warlord just for the sake of the WL trait.
Heavy Support - 280 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1998 points 7 Command Points
After realizing the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative is only 1 CP and that a unit of 4 produces an average of 24 S8 AP-1 D2 attacks at WS2+... yeah, you can see what I did. I mean, I didn't realize how strong it was until I saw the math. These things just absolutely total transports and medium toughness units. I think 2x2 and 1x4 are the optimal concentrations. 2x2 for coverage and 1x4 for infiltration. In a really desperate situation, I can double wrap my artillery.
And yes, I do own 8 of these things. I just have to build another 2... sigh...
One burning question though: Do I move the Crawlers into the Mars detachment or divide them? Hmm...
What a solid list. Nice. Will definetly work wonders and i woould like to see it in the field. Dont have 8 of those.
What i would change if you decide to test options.
3 onagers neutron you can buff any if need to hit air. The 4th id make a 5th robot. Since you dont use wrath to none other than roots and they are your only mortal source vs high invu armies.
One group of 4 dragoons for inflotrate keep. Switch 2*2 dragoons for a battalion. 3-4 extra cps can really help you wih options. Like explode all 4 dragoons inside enemy lines =4cp. I know its not the same having 17 troops instead of 4 dragoons but cps are extremely important. And as you said if need dragoons can defend and use dual advance afterwards.
Both lists valid i might try the one as i said it here. Its what i panned to test after infiltrators
Onagers 2* for detachment rest stygia for back line.
If we buff dragoon unit with +2 hit (got spectrum) means taser activates on 4+ correct?
I'd much rather have Enginseer as a warlord with no artifacts. So my opponent has to choose what to kill:
Cawl because of the aura
Warlord enginseer because of the VP and aura
Artifact enginseer because of the artifact.
This way I can use Cawl much more aggressively
Automatically Appended Next Post: GAH, I want to play a game so baaaaad.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I'd much rather have Enginseer as a warlord with no artifacts. So my opponent has to choose what to kill:
Cawl because of the aura
Warlord enginseer because of the VP and aura
Artifact enginseer because of the artifact.
This was I can use Cawl much more aggressively
Yes, this was my thinking as well.
I'm waiting for so much stuff in the mail. And I got to make 2 Dragoons and 15 Rangers. Ugh.
Heavy Support - 280 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1998 points 7 Command Points .
So trying to build this list with 1850. kicking out 1 icarus dunecrawler but still 18 points above. maybe getting rid of one of the dragoons from a 2 walker unit and spending it on...yeah on what exactly?
Msolve wrote: On the frontline stream today Reese said he and Frankie prefer the fist Kastelans to the shooty ones. Any opinions on why?
anti tank maybe? terminators? Shooty kastelans are IMO better but i can see certain metas fisty ones being good. close combat can really feth over certain armies and if you were to deepstrike a couple 2 man fisty kastelans behind enemy lines that could give them a bad day.... say like other mechanicus armies. but i'd still prefer the shooty kastelans.
I was using fist robots in front of my army in my first games. They where feared and almost all games focused fire upon since not only screened my font but also pushed all turns towards enemy lines. Unf their cost and effect is not extremely good since yes i wanted them even now to form a 2 * detachments but srill seems not so effective. Yes they impoved with gem fast switch protocol but there is major issues with them first of all their cost and ws 4+ .
Dont know could be a nice inflitration -1 to hit with onagers forming spearhead bla bla but... they need fixing. 240 is a battalion better or worse screener cant have gems spend on 4+ melee even with 6 superb attacks. Good weapon stats flamer not co op with protocol well and i love the flamer great defence. Atm with so limited stratgems i don t think they worth it. Still an option if you dont go heavy mars but why would you not. Mortal wounds dont compare even to the great fists.
Msolve wrote: On the frontline stream today Reese said he and Frankie prefer the fist Kastelans to the shooty ones. Any opinions on why?
He's wrong. That's it. Phosphor won a GT. Punchy ones are nowhere to be seen. Coincidence?
Also all they got from the codex is insta switch to punch twice, while Phosphor got: insta switch, mars stratagem, kataphron+kastelan stratagem.
The range ones indeed outperform overall when they go into double shooty, but as someone who almost always plays robots with fists and flamers, I can tell you they are mean SOBs in melee. They are effectivly one of the best CC melee robots/walkers in the game. Excellent save, invul save, can be repaired and can double attacks. That S10 AP-3 D3 hitting on 4 (maybe rerolls based on canticles or double the attacks based on protocals) make them better than most others of their type and even cheaper.
Msolve wrote: On the frontline stream today Reese said he and Frankie prefer the fist Kastelans to the shooty ones. Any opinions on why?
He's wrong. That's it. Phosphor won a GT. Punchy ones are nowhere to be seen. Coincidence?
Also all they got from the codex is insta switch to punch twice, while Phosphor got: insta switch, mars stratagem, kataphron+kastelan stratagem.
The range ones indeed outperform overall when they go into double shooty, but as someone who almost always plays robots with fists and flamers, I can tell you they are mean SOBs in melee. They are effectivly one of the best CC melee robots/walkers in the game. Excellent save, invul save, can be repaired and can double attacks. That S10 AP-3 D3 hitting on 4 (maybe rerolls based on canticles or double the attacks based on protocals) make them better than most others of their type and even cheaper.
I know it's probably going to be bad...but I am really, really looking forward to infiltrating a 6 strong squad of flame fist kastelans and a datasmith with the Stygies stratagem.
Msolve wrote: On the frontline stream today Reese said he and Frankie prefer the fist Kastelans to the shooty ones. Any opinions on why?
He's wrong. That's it. Phosphor won a GT. Punchy ones are nowhere to be seen. Coincidence?
Also all they got from the codex is insta switch to punch twice, while Phosphor got: insta switch, mars stratagem, kataphron+kastelan stratagem.
The range ones indeed outperform overall when they go into double shooty, but as someone who almost always plays robots with fists and flamers, I can tell you they are mean SOBs in melee. They are effectivly one of the best CC melee robots/walkers in the game. Excellent save, invul save, can be repaired and can double attacks. That S10 AP-3 D3 hitting on 4 (maybe rerolls based on canticles or double the attacks based on protocals) make them better than most others of their type and even cheaper.
I know it's probably going to be bad...but I am really, really looking forward to infiltrating a 6 strong squad of flame fist kastelans and a datasmith with the Stygies stratagem.
interesting thing to note here is that the flamers have range of 12" which means unlike other flamersyou can DS and instantly flame.
The last time I played them I got charged by Genestealers + broodlord (they're faster so that'll usually happen)and fistellans died before doing anything.
Meanwhile, every time I've used DakKastelans, I thought "I'm so sad I can't bring more as I have to protect them all"
rvd1ofakind wrote: The last time I played them I got charged by Genestealers + broodlord (they're faster so that'll usually happen)and fistellans died before doing anything.
Meanwhile, every time I've used DakKastelans, I thought "I'm so sad I can't bring more as I have to protect them all"
I can agree here. Don't ever try o melee genestealers, just shoot and run away....
I really hope they will put datasmith inside hq options and make engiseer less than 52 since he is not good. Then maybe then some nice lists might be fielded.
We cutting all gear all options we taking 5 man 3*5 120 while you could take 2*60 conscr. And other armies got cheap as well and hq options to go along.
Wengetting 2 * engiseer 2*52 while you ll take commander that actually order twice and commisar for 52 that makes them kinda fearless and ld them. Why would we still not take 2* ig battalios and max our Mars. Dont really understand army has no comoetitive feeling yet . I hope for more. Maybe we should have ig in front maybe we got our troops as elite options maybe still i dont know how competitive this will look away from wrath . Propably it wont.
After my test yesterday its save to say that without wrath of mars the damn genestealer and murlocs would have killed me turn 2. yes, its that good. It is a must have.
Comparison between our troops and conscripts is well and all but they will get nerfed. Probably only getting the ld of their commisar or something. Have to wait till their codex drops and the following FAQ.
The sad thing is that our troops are barely doing anything. they got good guns, they got -1, they are well on their feet...but we cant use them for anything other than screening.
Goddamn....just did the math on cawl+kastelans +wrath of mars holy emperor son of a.... that's insane. I knew it was insane but that's just damn. I don't want to have to need cawl. If I get cawl I'm converting an Arkhan land stand in
gendoikari87 wrote: Goddamn....just did the math on cawl+kastelans +wrath of mars holy emperor son of a.... that's insane. I knew it was insane but that's just damn. I don't want to have to need cawl. If I get cawl I'm converting an Arkhan land stand in
Welcome to the party. Wrathbots are going to be a staple of AdMech unless something gets changed in the FAQ. Knowing we can knock out Magnus in a single round of shooting on average rolls is very comforting.
Now if only the FAQ drops and erratas servitors to be able to be able to have all models replace their servo arms for heavy weapons I'll say this was a good dex.
Great dex take wrath for mortals priests for mortals and 2-3 onagers. Great dex. So well designed superb result. Exactly what we wanted a broken robot gem. What else. Pff
If they said robots mortal 6+ on wounding with 52-100 points increase and electeopr. Same 52 increase for inf or deep strike we would not really need the dex sorry but.
Not to mention when they sell their desired robots and priests. Then they will nerf it for popular demand and there we go again. About not having serious options nor proper units to make detachments when all detachments got 3 slots and we utilise two units bla bla same o same o. How hard to take so nice suggestions from community apply what you can and get on making something new . Same old problems still.
Scenario: Mars Dogma with Cawl Warlord in a mixed Forge World army.
Roll canticles twice. Each roll can have + or - 1 modifier.
Only the first canticle applies to the whole army. Both die rolls apply to the Mars detachment.
Is it fair to roll 2 dice of different colours, specifying which is the Mars only one, then decide on modifiers having seen both rolls?
Or do you think the player has to roll 1 dice, apply modifiers, then roll the 2nd?
Very different situations and rolling them one at a time seems much more of a gamble/much more likely to result in a duplicate.
Silentz wrote: Scenario: Mars Dogma with Cawl Warlord in a mixed Forge World army.
Roll canticles twice. Each roll can have + or - 1 modifier.
Only the first canticle applies to the whole army. Both die rolls apply to the Mars detachment.
Is it fair to roll 2 dice of different colours, specifying which is the Mars only one, then decide on modifiers having seen both rolls?
Or do you think the player has to roll 1 dice, apply modifiers, then roll the 2nd?
Very different situations and rolling them one at a time seems much more of a gamble/much more likely to result in a duplicate.
Thoughts?
I will be rolling a red die (Mars) and a black die (Stygies) just so no one can complain... well, about that at least. Most likely they will be like "Your army is Metalica though!" and I will weep and weep for my poor Forge World.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also here's a weird idea, screening with flamed equipped kataphrons for your kastelans if your going to use the kataphrons/kastelan strategem.
Every single time i read this crap codex i get more and more frusturated.
So lets see melee priests +1 cause they can move 6??
Robots dual nerf same points. So the unit that we spend one more gem to change protocol and remains stationary will (protocol nerf) double shoot not attack twice wich obviusly even more sto spliting shots on different targets . And heavy los tables will give us a pain. So even if you get a clear shot wont be able to multi down spamm armies as effective.
And the mortal wounding we did with grid became natural 6 no benefit from aegis. So let me get this straight. The unit thats was our best making us different from other our cheat unit all armies got one got nerfed because ?? It was not stationary enougn did not had 6 wounds like a walker did not have basic toughn. Was not bsws 4+ or what? Cause we had all that so the unit would not be left out of lists like 7th. The great index rview of robots return motprtals on 5+ . A serius defence for melee robots and a way to compensafe for the lack of mortal psyck and mortals overall our army. Point remain for melee and range same why????
Now you got wrath of mars now so more Mars for you.
So great was the copy paste that as been seen ongers stat line still miss the 6 wound remaining typo of the index. We tlking for some serious work in this codex. Who is in charge for ad mech can we learn so we can phone him to praise his work.
Two years for a codex skitarii get a nice gem spread and not even a single hq sergent. A liutenant if you like. No earrata and faq in hands again codex for the shelves. Dont want to curse. The further i check this codex the more disapointed i am.
The engiseer stat line for 52 points is hilarious. Trash it.
Tip: my army looks all the same and tranfer sheets or dogma marks like an L for lucius is enough for any tour...
Silentz wrote: Scenario: Mars Dogma with Cawl Warlord in a mixed Forge World army.
Roll canticles twice. Each roll can have + or - 1 modifier.
Only the first canticle applies to the whole army. Both die rolls apply to the Mars detachment.
Is it fair to roll 2 dice of different colours, specifying which is the Mars only one, then decide on modifiers having seen both rolls?
Or do you think the player has to roll 1 dice, apply modifiers, then roll the 2nd?
Very different situations and rolling them one at a time seems much more of a gamble/much more likely to result in a duplicate.
Thoughts?
I will be rolling a red die (Mars) and a black die (Stygies) just so no one can complain... well, about that at least. Most likely they will be like "Your army is Metalica though!" and I will weep and weep for my poor Forge World.
Most Tournaments will want you to have your different forge worlds easily differentiated, I.E. painted differently. As your opponent I want to know what im shooting at and that Dragoon #1 is different than #2 depsite having the same paint job.
I've done a Mars list with 6 Kataphron breachers in one unit. So a 24" long chain of T5 3W 2+
I think you have about a 75% chance of Shroudspalm every turn so that could become a 2+
Not amazing but I have the models and they are probably an OK screen.
Would be good with the Fresh Converts rule, but then their chance of shroudpsalm every turn is greatly diminished. Also the rest of Agripinaa rules are a bit sucky
Like your idea they got also good melee buff one extra hit and lowered cost but imdont know how effective they will be . For me screener dogma should be either
Graia 6+ not slain , 24" 4+ deny psych ability , 6+ moral wont flee for all wounds.
Stygia -1 hit if used as advanced army second rank deeper lines etc.
Most likely id use both since i use 2* detachments. Though mars could get double canticles id go for survival on these units.thats me but yes i like the idea of breachers for a relic map for deep obj capping with stygia . And ofc there is a gem that provides +1 save wnd +1 att. For the last efford i plan to use it on them for superb 1+ cover 5+ invu. If need.
My army is painted as Metalica, will not be changing it
But figured since the rim of my bases are black, A Red stripe will go on the Mars units and the Stygies VIII ones will stay black.
Geoff made a huge mistake with his screening unit deployment. Also confirms my idea of having a Fulgurite squad in the back lines as a counter charge to mop up anything that may actually get near my Bots
Silentz wrote: Scenario: Mars Dogma with Cawl Warlord in a mixed Forge World army.
Roll canticles twice. Each roll can have + or - 1 modifier.
Only the first canticle applies to the whole army. Both die rolls apply to the Mars detachment.
Is it fair to roll 2 dice of different colours, specifying which is the Mars only one, then decide on modifiers having seen both rolls?
Or do you think the player has to roll 1 dice, apply modifiers, then roll the 2nd?
Very different situations and rolling them one at a time seems much more of a gamble/much more likely to result in a duplicate.
Thoughts?
I will be rolling a red die (Mars) and a black die (Stygies) just so no one can complain... well, about that at least. Most likely they will be like "Your army is Metalica though!" and I will weep and weep for my poor Forge World.
Most Tournaments will want you to have your different forge worlds easily differentiated, I.E. painted differently. As your opponent I want to know what im shooting at and that Dragoon #1 is different than #2 depsite having the same paint job.
Thankfully, I am only running Dragoons from one detachment. Same for everything really. I doubt it will be an issue and if so, I can always come up with a way to denote them on the table (like base rings).
But figured since the rim of my bases are black, A Red stripe will go on the Mars units and the Stygies VIII ones will stay black.
Geoff made a huge mistake with his screening unit deployment. Also confirms my idea of having a Fulgurite squad in the back lines as a counter charge to mop up anything that may actually get near my Bots
I will likely do a similar thing to mark my models for FWs.
And I have used Fulgurites for counter-assault and they do work well to free up your Robots. Just not sure we have room for them anymore, especially with a price hike.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I would say their price hike was more than evened out by the price drop of Rangers/Vanguard
And the fact we can have Enginseer HQs
Yea, but that doesn't "even us out" sadly. We were overpriced across the board to begin with. Nothing in our 'Dex needed a hike. If anything, everything needed a cut. Enginseers I don't take as that much of a win either, because we started with only two HQs in the first place.
The whole book feels very half-hearted and uninspired though. Maybe I am just salty...
Not worth losing 9 shots, and they're going to be eating 18 guaranteed shots with double phospor as a opposed to 9 + 2d6 which averages out to less shots at a lower str.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Not worth losing 9 shots, and they're going to be eating 18 guaranteed shots with double phospor as a opposed to 9 + 2d6 which averages out to less shots at a lower str.
But but but, what if those work best with Grey Knights?! AMIRITE?!
Yeah you lose shots from the shooting phase but in the charge that's a lot of dead orks/taunts/etc enough to wipe out most squads in overwatch taking stygies for the long range protection you kill in overwatch 32 orks average so the entire squad. Outside of charging from behind cover I don't think anything can reliably get into cc wight that
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WrentheFaceless wrote: I dont see how allying an army that costs even more per model than ours helps.
psyker protection mortal wounds they want to get into cc and actually kill stuff in it. 3+ armor or 2+ armor is hard to crunch through without power fists. They are more points yes but, They get gak done.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also gate of infinity is broken as hell
So to kill a tank with anti horde weapons is just a tiny bit harder(or easier in terms of bolters). And killing a horde with antitank weapons is 10-20 times harder.
Two squads of Conscripts to wrap around the gunline with a Commissar because duh. Four Plasma squads with two Primes to maximize a turn 2 or turn 3 drop (after we blow away the enemy a bit and make some room for them!). 26 S8 shots that re-roll 1's because Scions are gross. This should help knock out nastier threats early on too, if we need. Behind that is our usual Cawl + Wrathbots and six Snipetarii, because nothing is funnier than re-roll to-hits on S7 AP -2 d3 damage sniper rifles. Those can pick off enemy Commissars and commanders. Two Neutronagers because they are reliable. This list can go hog wild with Wrath - every turn if it wants. It has the CP to do so. Plus, won't be easy to wade through 40 Conscripts (I did consider putting them in one unit, btw, which is doable without losing the Battalion perk), so our gunline should be safe. And the Scions help mitigate that issue with mobility a bit.
Not the best list probably, but I am thinking I will make it. Been wanting an excuse to buy some Scions and Tech-Thralls, so there we go!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also here's a weird idea, screening with flamed equipped kataphrons for your kastelans if your going to use the kataphrons/kastelan strategem.
Perlia is not a Forge World. Cain remarked that there were all sorts of different tech-priests working there, each with their own arcane symbols and colors.
Two squads of Conscripts to wrap around the gunline with a Commissar because duh. Four Plasma squads with two Primes to maximize a turn 2 or turn 3 drop (after we blow away the enemy a bit and make some room for them!). 26 S8 shots that re-roll 1's because Scions are gross. This should help knock out nastier threats early on too, if we need. Behind that is our usual Cawl + Wrathbots and six Snipetarii, because nothing is funnier than re-roll to-hits on S7 AP -2 d3 damage sniper rifles. Those can pick off enemy Commissars and commanders. Two Neutronagers because they are reliable. This list can go hog wild with Wrath - every turn if it wants. It has the CP to do so. Plus, won't be easy to wade through 40 Conscripts (I did consider putting them in one unit, btw, which is doable without losing the Battalion perk), so our gunline should be safe. And the Scions help mitigate that issue with mobility a bit.
Not the best list probably, but I am thinking I will make it. Been wanting an excuse to buy some Scions and Tech-Thralls, so there we go!
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I am so close to running this list. I need to check my spreadsheet to see if this is what I have right now. Pretty sure you are approaching the most competitive thing you can get. I am checking to see if I really need the 6th bot. 5 may be enough.
EDIT: I am looking at swapping the 6th robot for 2 dragoons as my counter charge units. The strategem gives them 5.5 hits in combat a piece on average. And 2 dragoons are always guaranteed to be able to pile in and both fight since the rear one can just touch the front one's base.
I am so close to running this list. I need to check my spreadsheet to see if this is what I have right now. Pretty sure you are approaching the most competitive thing you can get. I am checking to see if I really need the 6th bot. 5 may be enough.
Six makes for a near guaranteed Magnus kill in one round through Changling's aura. I think it is worth it for the max. Especially since you can just split fire.
What else would you want to bring that costs 110pt (legit question, not snark)?
So to kill a tank with anti horde weapons is just a tiny bit harder(or easier in terms of bolters). And killing a horde with antitank weapons is 10-20 times harder.
Incidentally, I find this is why Taser Lances with their S8 AP-1 D2 hits a sweet spot. It has the strength and damage of a Plasma Gun, but the points cost, volume, and AP of a Heavy Bolter.
I did do some mathhammer on the +1 to hit Kataphron/Kastelon strategem. If you knock off 1 robot and add the strategem and a squad of breachers, it is within 1 wound of damage on Mortarian from just the 5 robots. But your point is taken that for 110 points you just won't find anything that efficient. I just worry about the Geoff problem of not having enough screen and lacking anything to fight off something that gets to the robots. If you commit to 6 robots, you are effectively saying that you either win or lose the game based on whether the robots get in combat. Now that may also be the same thing with 4-5 robots.
If i ran 6 robots I would for sure drop those sniper rifles tho. Every time I mathhammer those things they seriously let me down. 6 snipers will consistently kill a commisar ... but that is it. So you dedicate 150 points to killing that commisar but your CP stacked guard opponent can always burn 2 CP to just have the squad ignore morale anyways. It feels like too much of an investment when those points could be 2 dragoons and 6 arc rifles.
EDIT: in my current list I have celestine and greyfax. Greyfax lets me drop the commisar and depend on her LD10 and gives me 2 +1 at 24" denies. Celestine gives the conscripts 6++ and fights things off. Going up to 6 robots means I can't have those models, but gives me the ability to ace magnus.
EDIT2: also, I don't want to buy another box of robots. I have 4. It takes me a whole weekend of work to make 2 robots since I magnetize so many of their joints. I like them to be fully posable.
The problem with Fist Kastelans is a lack of synergy. You would always take them Lucius or Stygies, and you would have to pair them with Kataphrons to get Elimination Volley. A lot of CP... might as well run a Knight Warden.
gendoikari87 wrote: So if I wanted to do a Felicia tyber army what colors do I use?
Wulfey wrote: I did do some mathhammer on the +1 to hit Kataphron/Kastelon strategem. If you knock off 1 robot and add the strategem and a squad of breachers, it is within 1 wound of damage on Mortarian from just the 5 robots. But your point is taken that for 110 points you just won't find anything that efficient. I just worry about the Geoff problem of not having enough screen and lacking anything to fight off something that gets to the robots. If you commit to 6 robots, you are effectively saying that you either win or lose the game based on whether the robots get in combat. Now that may also be the same thing with 4-5 robots.
If i ran 6 robots I would for sure drop those sniper rifles tho. Every time I mathhammer those things they seriously let me down. 6 snipers will consistently kill a commisar ... but that is it. So you dedicate 150 points to killing that commisar but your CP stacked guard opponent can always burn 2 CP to just have the squad ignore morale anyways. It feels like too much of an investment when those points could be 2 dragoons and 6 arc rifles.
EDIT: in my current list I have celestine and greyfax. Greyfax lets me drop the commisar and depend on her LD10 and gives me 2 +1 at 24" denies. Celestine gives the conscripts 6++ and fights things off. Going up to 6 robots means I can't have those models, but gives me the ability to ace magnus.
EDIT2: also, I don't want to buy another box of robots. I have 4. It takes me a whole weekend of work to make 2 robots since I magnetize so many of their joints. I like them to be fully posable.
Two Snipers (with Cawl) should kill a Commissar. S7 means wounding on 2's. They hit on 3's with a re-roll on misses. AP -2 means they get no save and if you do get both through 2d3 damage average is enough to put him down.
Now, for Changeling that is another story. We will probably need all six, but if we get it through, that is a big deal! And then we can much more easily knock out Magnus with the Kastelans. That takes a lot of wind out of their sails and that is one list I fear more than most.
From what I am seeing, Inqusitor Rex > Greyfax (someone pointed it out on this thread). And Ld 10 for Conscripts is good, but the Commissar more reliable. Celestine is a whole different thing. I wouldn't run her, because while I love the model, I just don't know what she brings us that we desperately need. Counter-assault? Eh. Not as big a deal with such a deep screen, imo. Plus, look at all the Plasma in the list too - that I think counts for a lot.
For Edit2, you got to just forget about that nonsense. These are action figures! I magnetized one set of hands for Fists and realized it was a waste and never went back. I own 8... so... yea. It takes me about a day or two to knock one out to the level I did my current ones.
Arachnofiend wrote: The wargame exclusive models are absolutely gorgeous. Now if only they could remember to put clothes on their models more than half the time...
Yes, if I recall correctly, there is a NSFW version as well...
Celestine is my best painted model. I am the only one in the pasadena / LA gaming area that actually has a painted one. I see so many jank grey spray celestines. I will be real sad not seeing her on the table soaking up lascannon fire on her gemini. That gets me most of my wins when my opponent foolishly shoots their best anti tank weapons into celestine's gemini's 4++. Nothing makes me happier. 6 robots it is.
Maybe I can do a some sort of hodge podge conversion of my poor kataphrons and turn them into kastelons. I feel so bad that they are so gak now. I loved those models in 7th, but now I can't even play them.
EDIT: yes, second you EM on the deep screen strategy. 6 robots demands a deep screen. I am looking at buying a box of 40 bolt action dudes for $40 and putting skitarii bits on them. I will call them Cawl's colonial militia.
Arachnofiend wrote: The wargame exclusive models are absolutely gorgeous. Now if only they could remember to put clothes on their models more than half the time...
are there even any offical GW female techpriests ever?
Arachnofiend wrote: The wargame exclusive models are absolutely gorgeous. Now if only they could remember to put clothes on their models more than half the time...
are there even any offical GW female techpriests ever?
Most tech priests are covered in totally indiscernible robes and robot bits. I see no reason why a Tech Priest Dominus couldn't already be a woman.
Arachnofiend wrote: The wargame exclusive models are absolutely gorgeous. Now if only they could remember to put clothes on their models more than half the time...
are there even any offical GW female techpriests ever?
Most tech priests are covered in totally indiscernible robes and robot bits. I see no reason why a Tech Priest Dominus couldn't already be a woman.
Good point but i assume by the time you get to dominus level you have no gender left. I mean a good model for Felicia.
gendoikari87 wrote: Good point but i assume by the time you get to dominus level you have no gender left. I mean a good model for Felicia.
Gotcha, I'm not familiar with the character Felicia but yeah Wargames Exclusive could be good + greenstuff to modest-up the model if it's one of the ones they decided didn't need chest covering.
Arachnofiend wrote: The wargame exclusive models are absolutely gorgeous. Now if only they could remember to put clothes on their models more than half the time...
are there even any offical GW female techpriests ever?
Most tech priests are covered in totally indiscernible robes and robot bits. I see no reason why a Tech Priest Dominus couldn't already be a woman.
All genders are equal under the gaze of the Omnissiah, they are flesh and thus are weak!
gendoikari87 wrote: Good point but i assume by the time you get to dominus level you have no gender left. I mean a good model for Felicia.
Gotcha, I'm not familiar with the character Felicia but yeah Wargames Exclusive could be good + greenstuff to modest-up the model if it's one of the ones they decided didn't need chest covering.
She's from the Ciaphas Cain novels. She's an Enginseer the first time they meet and a Magos the second time.
what are these wargames exclusive, where can i get one, and how many kidneys do i need to sell to get one? also one that is covered up would be preferable.
gendoikari87 wrote: what are these wargames exclusive, where can i get one, and how many kidneys do i need to sell to get one? also one that is covered up would be preferable.
just google wargames exclusive, its a nice site and reasonably priced, just beware, the models go from "OMG amazing" to "Get a girlfriend, Please"
gendoikari87 wrote: what are these wargames exclusive, where can i get one, and how many kidneys do i need to sell to get one? also one that is covered up would be preferable.
gendoikari87 wrote: what are these wargames exclusive, where can i get one, and how many kidneys do i need to sell to get one? also one that is covered up would be preferable.
just google wargames exclusive, its a nice site and reasonably priced, just beware, the models go from "OMG amazing" to "Get a girlfriend, Please"
oh okay. Thanks. i heard wargames exclusive and thought you were talking about limited runs by GW. like they do with Magic: the gathering promos.... also this ones nice.
Going full Stygies VIII for my army tactics, it fits the most my playstyle, the fluff (shady business AdMech guys) and the colours I've chosen. I got to play a small list in a multiplayer Apocalypse game yesterday against Guard, got to say the -1 to Hit is really nice, and -2 against my lone Dragoon made one of my opponents chose to shot someone else half the time haha Of course in 1v1 he won't have the choice but still that's a really nice trait.
Also I've thought a bit about how to use the Infiltration stratagem efficiently and I believe infiltrating a pair of Fistellans can be nice. It allows them to make the charge at their first move, because they're placed right after deployment and so can make their 8" move to close the gap before charging. No need for a Datasmith too as you can insta-switch them to Conqueror protocols when they arrive. Of course against an opponent who properly screens their big stuff it won't be really effective, but it can be very punishing against someone who let a rift in their defenses. If you succeed in charging something important it can really wreck their defenses and distract a chunk of their army to deal with them. Using flamers to clean up a bit of the chaff could be effective before making your protocol switch. Remember to use the Canticle to reroll 1s to Hit and it can prove nice enough.
As for the deployment strategy you'd just have to deploy your Fistellans and CC units last, so that the opponent have time to set up their own units. That way you can see if the charge is possible or not, and chose another unit to infiltrate or another target to go for if things aren't going to go your way with your initial plan.
I'm going to try this someday, the meta at my LGS isn't full of Conscripts like it seems to be in your areas so that may prove really useful. In fact I've faced conscripts in the Apocalypse game yesterday, 2x50 with one Commissar each, first time my opponent tried Conscripts. He sheltered them in a Void Shield Generator along with officers and tanks. Well we just sniped his two Commissars turn 1 and then he took three turns to destroy my lone Dragoon with his Conscripts, by FRFSRF and in return in CC when I charged with the Dragoon. After one round he disengaged and it was an officer with plasma pistol who finished off my Dragoons. So I'm not really impressed at all with Conscripts like you all seem to be, I guess in a regular game they can be meaner but their volume of fire is a joke against Stygies VIII. Dealing 4 Wounds to a T6+ model with 180 shots is not really impressive, and it's so much a pain in the arse to roll all these dice (for nothing) that he won't be bringing Conscripts ever again. Luckily he didn't have to move his 100 Conscripts or the game would've taken three days.
Oh, don't know if it was mentioned but the Conqueror Imperative Doctrina stratagem that gives you +2 to Hit in CC for Dragoons ? It allows you to proc Taser on a 4+. Use it on a pair of Dragoons before charging something you want dead and chances are you'll have it dead. Can't wait to have more Dragoons, they're awesome with the Codex (love the AP-1, thanks GW).
Thanks for the information Aaranis. Hope you enjoyed that apoca game.
Yes i have to say snipers did a great job for me as well. Though i will not share your enthusiasm for only a stygia.
Atm after some testing iv found dakkastelans Mars with Cawl and wrath of mars being broken good. And our best choise to pass mortal wounds .4-6 is a must
So i wont be using my fist robots. Atm.
Mainly the robots suoer fists are 3 att each and if younchange protocol the flamers are dead points. Their 3 hits even superb will not be equal to the cheap 10 att from 5 staffpriests that will pass mortals passing high invu while kiling one small commisarr or even a cripled unit will get them in 3+ invu. Its almost 7-8 priest for a melee robot and you gotta take 2. All my games i found melee robots to need aegis for agreesive play. Else no point and since they now gonna deepmstrike and got a nerfed in returning mortals i find no issue to take them. From a superior defensive pusher they become a pure drop attack and thqt role they wont do competitive.
I see you enjoy your games and your decision on taking only stygia tell me you dont rally gone for competitive just enjoying your game. Fine by me.
Dragoons i gotta say i saw me and suzuteo(he convinced me as well) spamming most forums early on about how that unit offered superb options. Now are extreme. I could really say they are one of the cheapest and most important units. You can use them as screener as tar pit offnsive antihorde everything. The main issue is numbers.
In order to be as effective as we like they need to be more than 1. Less then 4. Some times we need them 3*1 for detachments. Thats their drowback. Atm j found the magic number for me to be a unit stygia of 3. I would love more but i vot issues moving them in melee and more are enetering again 250+ that is expenaive for what i want them for.
Tactics with dragoons involve inflitrate 13"+ they move 10 so -2 to hit will be safe even going second. With shroud wil have no issue for surviving. Youmcan team up with inf stygia hq for melee buff. Can be used with 3 canticles. And use +2 to hit since they got specfrum for a superd 4+ taser. They can use the double advance gem for obj hunting line breaker hunting units. And ofc they can use the exploding gem for a devastating result even when things go sour.
My main issue atm . After my Mars wall i dont have enough points to get staffpriests and dragoons. What to decide. Staff priests 10 even cheaper or dragoons. I have dragoons atm. We ll see. Its the first list i have without melee priests i hope i wont loose my luck.
Infiltrators though a great otpion their cost of 260 for 10 is more than their worth. They need to be 200 to be a good take for me between priests and dragoons +their main buff is shared with robots. Still the best unit benefit from both melee and range buffs will taser 5+ shoot with wrath of mars and have two canticles.. Though always nive and cheaper if youmdont have stygiamor want only mars. Might worth it for a Mars brigade that seem to be doable now.
You're right, I don't play pure competitive, but I rather try to have a fluffy list with units I like while compromising for useful stuff at the same time, because while my meta is not full of ruthless tourneyers, there's still some mean lists I need to be able to deal with. I play only Stygies VIII because I'm not fan of the idea of mixing Forge Worlds and all of my force is painted the same anyway. I totally agree that in a pure competitive setting Mars is the go-to thanks to the buffed Cawl and Wrath of Mars (seriously they could've made that one AdMech-wide :/) but I prefer a more mobile playstyle with loads of infantry so I keep it to Stygies. I hesitated with Graia for the pseudo FnP (more like Feel No Death) but I'm pretty sure the -1 to Hit is way better for survivability as long as we don't have transports for our Vanguard. I found the Lucius dogma to be too specific, really can't think of a load of weapons that deal -1 AP and I'd fail my save anyway, so I prefer mitigating their chances to hit me in the first place. You're also basically immune to overcharged plasma over 12" because your opponent won't risk blowing up their units that much thanks to the -1, so that adds survivability for our artillery. It also negates the Tesla effect on 6, should you be facing Necrons or other weapons that procs something on 6's to Hit.
As for the unit to Infiltrate subject, you're right that 10 Fulgurites are way cheaper to field and somewhat resilient too. I'd use them against different targets than the Fistellans would go to, though. I've found Fulgurites (even though I only play 5 for now) are excellent when they get the charge on Terminators and such. They killed a C'tan on the charge too once, that was fun. They have the perfect damage output to deal with the Terminators' Wounds, and if they can go through their 3++ shield easily under the weight of attacks. Got to be lucky on your Wound rolls though. I'd send Fistellans against undefended tanks and such, because at S10 they'll wound most of the time on 3+, and negate the majority of the armor saves they'll face. Tanks are also not really good in fighting back so you'll be sure to have demolished your target after their two CC rounds against a tank that can't yet disengage. I didn't to the exact maths (I don't know how to Mathammer) but with two Fistellans, fighting twice, rerolling 1's to Hit, you'd dish out roughly 18 damage. If someone wants to do the exact math I'd be grateful because that seems a lot to me They also have the advantage of being tough to kill, and they'll be right in the enemy lines, he'll have to spend considerable firepower and units to deal with it as he can't just ignore it (except if he finds a way to tarpit you) and that gives you that much ease to set up your own artillery to deal with the bulk of the army. I don't know in my theory it sounds like a somewhat expensive Distraction Carnifex but they look more menacing than Fulgurites for that role. I'd say it really depends on your opponent's army and the deployment, mission etc. to see which unit you'd take to fill that role. I've always wanted Fistellans so I'd like my plan to work, I'll borrow some to try it out someday.
I think I'll go with two pairs of Dragoons like everyone said earlier, just because if helps maximizing the +2 to Hit stratagem because they'll be two Dragoons benefiting from 1 CP and that sounds meaner than one Dragoon. However I'm stuck if I want to run a Brigade, because that'll only fill 2 FA slots and I don't want five Dragoons. Ironstrider are not worth it in my opinion, even with the codex. The Cognis stratagems are oddly specific and thus are a waste of CP I think. So I'd go with a pair of Dragoons for offense, and two single Dragoons for screening my flanks maybe, that way I can open up the way for a Brigade.
Oh did you know the cheapest Brigade we can fill thanks to the codex costs only 1101 pts ? I can tell the details if you want but I can tell you it's not a good list Just to say filling a Brigade is not an unreachable dream like before, and having 12 CP with our sweet Stratagems is a really tasty possibility.
Ironstriders are good too, especially in a pure Stygies army where you don't get Wrath of Mars; 4 Autocannon Ballistarii is a lot of dakka. They are pricier than Dragoons though.
I honestly did not realize how much stronger Dragoons became until I did the math myself. As rvd1ofakind pointed out, point for point, they rival double-shot Kastelans against T6 and T7 units.
vs. Razorback (T7, 3+, 10W) Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 3.33 wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 2.67 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 2 CP
vs. Taurox Prime (T6, 3+, 10W) Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 5 wounds per 110 points; 22 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 4 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 18.33 points per wound, 2 CP
In summary, a unit of 4 Dragoons kills practically any transport in one turn for 1 CP.
A bit costly but doable even taking one les onager for those 2 lasc balistarii could work if need the detament slots
In my Mars brigade imgot it this way since points are limited and with only 3 heavys this is my choise. Though id prefer stygia in any case for striders. As always cant find proper lists with so few units. Unf.
Aaranis wrote: Going full Stygies VIII for my army tactics, it fits the most my playstyle, the fluff (shady business AdMech guys) and the colours I've chosen. I got to play a small list in a multiplayer Apocalypse game yesterday against Guard, got to say the -1 to Hit is really nice, and -2 against my lone Dragoon made one of my opponents chose to shot someone else half the time haha Of course in 1v1 he won't have the choice but still that's a really nice trait.
Also I've thought a bit about how to use the Infiltration stratagem efficiently and I believe infiltrating a pair of Fistellans can be nice. It allows them to make the charge at their first move, because they're placed right after deployment and so can make their 8" move to close the gap before charging. No need for a Datasmith too as you can insta-switch them to Conqueror protocols when they arrive. Of course against an opponent who properly screens their big stuff it won't be really effective, but it can be very punishing against someone who let a rift in their defenses. If you succeed in charging something important it can really wreck their defenses and distract a chunk of their army to deal with them. Using flamers to clean up a bit of the chaff could be effective before making your protocol switch. Remember to use the Canticle to reroll 1s to Hit and it can prove nice enough.
As for the deployment strategy you'd just have to deploy your Fistellans and CC units last, so that the opponent have time to set up their own units. That way you can see if the charge is possible or not, and chose another unit to infiltrate or another target to go for if things aren't going to go your way with your initial plan.
I'm going to try this someday, the meta at my LGS isn't full of Conscripts like it seems to be in your areas so that may prove really useful. In fact I've faced conscripts in the Apocalypse game yesterday, 2x50 with one Commissar each, first time my opponent tried Conscripts. He sheltered them in a Void Shield Generator along with officers and tanks. Well we just sniped his two Commissars turn 1 and then he took three turns to destroy my lone Dragoon with his Conscripts, by FRFSRF and in return in CC when I charged with the Dragoon. After one round he disengaged and it was an officer with plasma pistol who finished off my Dragoons. So I'm not really impressed at all with Conscripts like you all seem to be, I guess in a regular game they can be meaner but their volume of fire is a joke against Stygies VIII. Dealing 4 Wounds to a T6+ model with 180 shots is not really impressive, and it's so much a pain in the arse to roll all these dice (for nothing) that he won't be bringing Conscripts ever again. Luckily he didn't have to move his 100 Conscripts or the game would've taken three days.
Oh, don't know if it was mentioned but the Conqueror Imperative Doctrina stratagem that gives you +2 to Hit in CC for Dragoons ? It allows you to proc Taser on a 4+. Use it on a pair of Dragoons before charging something you want dead and chances are you'll have it dead. Can't wait to have more Dragoons, they're awesome with the Codex (love the AP-1, thanks GW).
Aaranis wrote: You're right, I don't play pure competitive, but I rather try to have a fluffy list with units I like while compromising for useful stuff at the same time, because while my meta is not full of ruthless tourneyers, there's still some mean lists I need to be able to deal with. I play only Stygies VIII because I'm not fan of the idea of mixing Forge Worlds and all of my force is painted the same anyway. I totally agree that in a pure competitive setting Mars is the go-to thanks to the buffed Cawl and Wrath of Mars (seriously they could've made that one AdMech-wide :/) but I prefer a more mobile playstyle with loads of infantry so I keep it to Stygies. I hesitated with Graia for the pseudo FnP (more like Feel No Death) but I'm pretty sure the -1 to Hit is way better for survivability as long as we don't have transports for our Vanguard. I found the Lucius dogma to be too specific, really can't think of a load of weapons that deal -1 AP and I'd fail my save anyway, so I prefer mitigating their chances to hit me in the first place. You're also basically immune to overcharged plasma over 12" because your opponent won't risk blowing up their units that much thanks to the -1, so that adds survivability for our artillery. It also negates the Tesla effect on 6, should you be facing Necrons or other weapons that procs something on 6's to Hit.
As for the unit to Infiltrate subject, you're right that 10 Fulgurites are way cheaper to field and somewhat resilient too. I'd use them against different targets than the Fistellans would go to, though. I've found Fulgurites (even though I only play 5 for now) are excellent when they get the charge on Terminators and such. They killed a C'tan on the charge too once, that was fun. They have the perfect damage output to deal with the Terminators' Wounds, and if they can go through their 3++ shield easily under the weight of attacks. Got to be lucky on your Wound rolls though. I'd send Fistellans against undefended tanks and such, because at S10 they'll wound most of the time on 3+, and negate the majority of the armor saves they'll face. Tanks are also not really good in fighting back so you'll be sure to have demolished your target after their two CC rounds against a tank that can't yet disengage. I didn't to the exact maths (I don't know how to Mathammer) but with two Fistellans, fighting twice, rerolling 1's to Hit, you'd dish out roughly 18 damage. If someone wants to do the exact math I'd be grateful because that seems a lot to me They also have the advantage of being tough to kill, and they'll be right in the enemy lines, he'll have to spend considerable firepower and units to deal with it as he can't just ignore it (except if he finds a way to tarpit you) and that gives you that much ease to set up your own artillery to deal with the bulk of the army. I don't know in my theory it sounds like a somewhat expensive Distraction Carnifex but they look more menacing than Fulgurites for that role. I'd say it really depends on your opponent's army and the deployment, mission etc. to see which unit you'd take to fill that role. I've always wanted Fistellans so I'd like my plan to work, I'll borrow some to try it out someday.
I think I'll go with two pairs of Dragoons like everyone said earlier, just because if helps maximizing the +2 to Hit stratagem because they'll be two Dragoons benefiting from 1 CP and that sounds meaner than one Dragoon. However I'm stuck if I want to run a Brigade, because that'll only fill 2 FA slots and I don't want five Dragoons. Ironstrider are not worth it in my opinion, even with the codex. The Cognis stratagems are oddly specific and thus are a waste of CP I think. So I'd go with a pair of Dragoons for offense, and two single Dragoons for screening my flanks maybe, that way I can open up the way for a Brigade.
Oh did you know the cheapest Brigade we can fill thanks to the codex costs only 1101 pts ? I can tell the details if you want but I can tell you it's not a good list Just to say filling a Brigade is not an unreachable dream like before, and having 12 CP with our sweet Stratagems is a really tasty possibility.
Asranis uses wall of text, it's super effective!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: Ironstriders are good too, especially in a pure Stygies army where you don't get Wrath of Mars; 4 Autocannon Ballistarii is a lot of dakka. They are pricier than Dragoons though.
I honestly did not realize how much stronger Dragoons became until I did the math myself. As rvd1ofakind pointed out, point for point, they rival double-shot Kastelans against T6 and T7 units.
vs. Razorback (T7, 3+, 10W) Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 3.33 wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 2.67 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 2 CP
vs. Taurox Prime (T6, 3+, 10W) Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 5 wounds per 110 points; 22 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 4 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 18.33 points per wound, 2 CP
In summary, a unit of 4 Dragoons kills practically any transport in one turn for 1 CP.
keep in mind that's using a CP. not something that you can do on the average without it. also those are not targets i want my kastelans shooting at, those are onager targets.
also kastelans should only be 2.66 on t7 with doctrina and protector unless you're factoring in re rolls. as they only get +1 BS not +2 as they don't the datatether thing.
Suzuteo wrote: Ironstriders are good too, especially in a pure Stygies army where you don't get Wrath of Mars; 4 Autocannon Ballistarii is a lot of dakka. They are pricier than Dragoons though.
I honestly did not realize how much stronger Dragoons became until I did the math myself. As rvd1ofakind pointed out, point for point, they rival double-shot Kastelans against T6 and T7 units.
vs. Razorback (T7, 3+) Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 3.33 wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 2.67 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 2 CP
vs. Taurox Prime Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 5 wounds per 110 points; 22 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 4 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 18.33 points per wound, 2 CP
Only Skitarii units get the Doctrina though, so I believe your math is not correct for the Kastelan unit. You could count the Cawl re-rolls though as I believe most people will have them near Cawl.
The Ironstrider with Autocannon may be nice indeed, nothing does S7 in my army save the Dunecrawlers but there may be time where it's best to shoot something with less firepower than a Neutron Laser. I do have a Scions Command Squad with two plasma guns and 2 melta guns but they may be needed elsewhere. Their price (in €) rebukes me a bit to have them PLUS the Dragoons, so I'll buy the same number of boxes than I originally planned anyway.
other interesting things to note are fistelans to that razor do 5 wounds or about the same per point. and also have a gun, but onagers do much worse per points (granted comparing ranged attacks to CC is comparing apples to oranges)
Aaranis wrote: Going full Stygies VIII for my army tactics, it fits the most my playstyle, the fluff (shady business AdMech guys) and the colours I've chosen. I got to play a small list in a multiplayer Apocalypse game yesterday against Guard, got to say the -1 to Hit is really nice, and -2 against my lone Dragoon made one of my opponents chose to shot someone else half the time haha Of course in 1v1 he won't have the choice but still that's a really nice trait.
Also I've thought a bit about how to use the Infiltration stratagem efficiently and I believe infiltrating a pair of Fistellans can be nice. It allows them to make the charge at their first move, because they're placed right after deployment and so can make their 8" move to close the gap before charging. No need for a Datasmith too as you can insta-switch them to Conqueror protocols when they arrive. Of course against an opponent who properly screens their big stuff it won't be really effective, but it can be very punishing against someone who let a rift in their defenses. If you succeed in charging something important it can really wreck their defenses and distract a chunk of their army to deal with them. Using flamers to clean up a bit of the chaff could be effective before making your protocol switch. Remember to use the Canticle to reroll 1s to Hit and it can prove nice enough.
As for the deployment strategy you'd just have to deploy your Fistellans and CC units last, so that the opponent have time to set up their own units. That way you can see if the charge is possible or not, and chose another unit to infiltrate or another target to go for if things aren't going to go your way with your initial plan.
I'm going to try this someday, the meta at my LGS isn't full of Conscripts like it seems to be in your areas so that may prove really useful. In fact I've faced conscripts in the Apocalypse game yesterday, 2x50 with one Commissar each, first time my opponent tried Conscripts. He sheltered them in a Void Shield Generator along with officers and tanks. Well we just sniped his two Commissars turn 1 and then he took three turns to destroy my lone Dragoon with his Conscripts, by FRFSRF and in return in CC when I charged with the Dragoon. After one round he disengaged and it was an officer with plasma pistol who finished off my Dragoons. So I'm not really impressed at all with Conscripts like you all seem to be, I guess in a regular game they can be meaner but their volume of fire is a joke against Stygies VIII. Dealing 4 Wounds to a T6+ model with 180 shots is not really impressive, and it's so much a pain in the arse to roll all these dice (for nothing) that he won't be bringing Conscripts ever again. Luckily he didn't have to move his 100 Conscripts or the game would've taken three days.
Oh, don't know if it was mentioned but the Conqueror Imperative Doctrina stratagem that gives you +2 to Hit in CC for Dragoons ? It allows you to proc Taser on a 4+. Use it on a pair of Dragoons before charging something you want dead and chances are you'll have it dead. Can't wait to have more Dragoons, they're awesome with the Codex (love the AP-1, thanks GW).
Aaranis wrote: You're right, I don't play pure competitive, but I rather try to have a fluffy list with units I like while compromising for useful stuff at the same time, because while my meta is not full of ruthless tourneyers, there's still some mean lists I need to be able to deal with. I play only Stygies VIII because I'm not fan of the idea of mixing Forge Worlds and all of my force is painted the same anyway. I totally agree that in a pure competitive setting Mars is the go-to thanks to the buffed Cawl and Wrath of Mars (seriously they could've made that one AdMech-wide :/) but I prefer a more mobile playstyle with loads of infantry so I keep it to Stygies. I hesitated with Graia for the pseudo FnP (more like Feel No Death) but I'm pretty sure the -1 to Hit is way better for survivability as long as we don't have transports for our Vanguard. I found the Lucius dogma to be too specific, really can't think of a load of weapons that deal -1 AP and I'd fail my save anyway, so I prefer mitigating their chances to hit me in the first place. You're also basically immune to overcharged plasma over 12" because your opponent won't risk blowing up their units that much thanks to the -1, so that adds survivability for our artillery. It also negates the Tesla effect on 6, should you be facing Necrons or other weapons that procs something on 6's to Hit.
As for the unit to Infiltrate subject, you're right that 10 Fulgurites are way cheaper to field and somewhat resilient too. I'd use them against different targets than the Fistellans would go to, though. I've found Fulgurites (even though I only play 5 for now) are excellent when they get the charge on Terminators and such. They killed a C'tan on the charge too once, that was fun. They have the perfect damage output to deal with the Terminators' Wounds, and if they can go through their 3++ shield easily under the weight of attacks. Got to be lucky on your Wound rolls though. I'd send Fistellans against undefended tanks and such, because at S10 they'll wound most of the time on 3+, and negate the majority of the armor saves they'll face. Tanks are also not really good in fighting back so you'll be sure to have demolished your target after their two CC rounds against a tank that can't yet disengage. I didn't to the exact maths (I don't know how to Mathammer) but with two Fistellans, fighting twice, rerolling 1's to Hit, you'd dish out roughly 18 damage. If someone wants to do the exact math I'd be grateful because that seems a lot to me They also have the advantage of being tough to kill, and they'll be right in the enemy lines, he'll have to spend considerable firepower and units to deal with it as he can't just ignore it (except if he finds a way to tarpit you) and that gives you that much ease to set up your own artillery to deal with the bulk of the army. I don't know in my theory it sounds like a somewhat expensive Distraction Carnifex but they look more menacing than Fulgurites for that role. I'd say it really depends on your opponent's army and the deployment, mission etc. to see which unit you'd take to fill that role. I've always wanted Fistellans so I'd like my plan to work, I'll borrow some to try it out someday.
I think I'll go with two pairs of Dragoons like everyone said earlier, just because if helps maximizing the +2 to Hit stratagem because they'll be two Dragoons benefiting from 1 CP and that sounds meaner than one Dragoon. However I'm stuck if I want to run a Brigade, because that'll only fill 2 FA slots and I don't want five Dragoons. Ironstrider are not worth it in my opinion, even with the codex. The Cognis stratagems are oddly specific and thus are a waste of CP I think. So I'd go with a pair of Dragoons for offense, and two single Dragoons for screening my flanks maybe, that way I can open up the way for a Brigade.
Oh did you know the cheapest Brigade we can fill thanks to the codex costs only 1101 pts ? I can tell the details if you want but I can tell you it's not a good list Just to say filling a Brigade is not an unreachable dream like before, and having 12 CP with our sweet Stratagems is a really tasty possibility.
Asranis uses wall of text, it's super effective!
Honestly, what was the point of this statement? If you don't want to read Aaranis's posts, then don't.
Suzuteo wrote: Ironstriders are good too, especially in a pure Stygies army where you don't get Wrath of Mars; 4 Autocannon Ballistarii is a lot of dakka. They are pricier than Dragoons though.
I honestly did not realize how much stronger Dragoons became until I did the math myself. As rvd1ofakind pointed out, point for point, they rival double-shot Kastelans against T6 and T7 units.
vs. Razorback (T7, 3+, 10W) Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 3.33 wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 2.67 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 23.57 points per wound, 2 CP
vs. Taurox Prime (T6, 3+, 10W) Dragoons w/ Doctrina: 3.33 wounds per 68 points; 20.40 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Doctrina and Protector: 5 wounds per 110 points; 22 points per wound, 1 CP Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars and Protector: 4 wounds + 2 mortal wounds per 110 points; 18.33 points per wound, 2 CP
In summary, a unit of 4 Dragoons kills practically any transport in one turn for 1 CP.
keep in mind that's using a CP. not something that you can do on the average without it. also those are not targets i want my kastelans shooting at, those are onager targets.
What are you smoking?
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
vs. Razorback (T7, 3+, 10W) or Taurox Prime (T6, 3+, 10W) Neutron Crawler: 3.556 wounds per 140 points; 39.37 points per wound
Neutron Crawler w/ Doctrina: 4.444 wounds per 140 points; 31.5 points per wound, 1 CP
And for the record, a double-shot Kastelan has always outdamaged a Crawler against T6 and T7 transports. The Crawler's power is its versatility and range. Kastelans project a 36" bubble of death, but Crawlers can move and shoot at 48". Furthermore, they are effective against T8 units like Land Raiders and Leman Russ.
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
Only Skitarii units get the Doctrina though, so I believe your math is not correct for the Kastelan unit. You could count the Cawl re-rolls though as I believe most people will have them near Cawl.
The Ironstrider with Autocannon may be nice indeed, nothing does S7 in my army save the Dunecrawlers but there may be time where it's best to shoot something with less firepower than a Neutron Laser. I do have a Scions Command Squad with two plasma guns and 2 melta guns but they may be needed elsewhere. Their price (in €) rebukes me a bit to have them PLUS the Dragoons, so I'll buy the same number of boxes than I originally planned anyway.
Good catch. So Kastelans can only Wrath of Mars. Unless you bring Kataphrons, anyway. And true. I did not include rerolls!
vs. Razorback (T7, 3+, 10W) Kastelan w/ Protector and Cawl reroll: 3.556 wounds per 110 points; 30.93 points per wound
Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars, Protector, and Cawl reroll: 3.556 and 2.67 mortal wounds per 110 points; 17.67 points per wound
vs. Taurox Prime (T6, 3+, 10W) Kastelan w/ Protector and Cawl reroll: 5.333 wounds per 110 points; 20.64 points per wound
Kastelan w/ Wrath of Mars, Protector, and Cawl reroll: 5.333 wounds and 2.67 mortal wounds per 110 points; 13.75 points per wound
So Dragoons are superior against T7, on par against T6, and use CP more efficiently. The catch, of course, is that they have to make it into melee.
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
no need to be an donkey-cave, to the ignore list you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow dakka somehow that censoring seems worse than the original
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
Just saying it's something to keep in mind, no need to be a dick. ignore list for your ass too.
Dragoons also benefit from 2 canticles. Str and rerolls. Thats a big ++ and their mobility is a key factor vs robots that will soon become so stationary tat most plans vs them will be either outrange them since most lists i see have no balistariiand no more than 1-2 neutronagers. So a lists going first with lets say 8 lascannons average or equal myabe my list of 3-4 onagers will clearly outshoot your onagers and will eventually kill the stationary robots.
Pure damage robots good but dragoons also benefit from canticles and onagers dragoons also moveeeee
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
no need to be an donkey-cave, to the ignore list you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow dakka somehow that censoring seems worse than the original
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
Just saying it's something to keep in mind, no need to be a dick. ignore list for your ass too.
At this point, who isn't ignoring everyone else? This thread is just killing me!
Also, has anyone seen the wargear point costs for the new 'Dex? Can we potentially confirm that our Power Fists dropped in points at all? Seems to be a trend and I would love to pay 12pt instead of 20pt...
Not that it matters as much thanks to BO, but still, if we do want one at least he should be a bit cheaper (in theory).
Jaynen wrote: That is an interesting point about the fact Dragoons can be affected by the additional Skiitarii stratagems
It does make for a nasty potential unit. Dragoon Bulldozer. Run 4-5 of the suckers in a unit in Stygies, grab Remorseless Fist or Machine Might, toss down Conqueror Doctrina Imperative and slam them into an enemy unit you want deader than dead. S8 AP -1 attacks that explode on 4+ will really be rough. -2 to-hit makes them tough to shoot, so they have to be addressed in CC, which is where they excel.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Also, has anyone seen the wargear point costs for the new 'Dex? Can we potentially confirm that our Power Fists dropped in points at all? Seems to be a trend and I would love to pay 12pt instead of 20pt...
Not that it matters as much thanks to BO, but still, if we do want one at least he should be a bit cheaper (in theory).
I have the codex, I'll tell you the only points changes:
That's all for the AdMech changes. Didn't look up the eventual point changes for Knights though. So the Datasmith is still the same price, 52 points, the same cost as a squad of 4 Servitors with two Heavy Bolters (the cheapest squad possible).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, Dragoons have become deadly with the right synergies. I won't buy more than my recent Start Collecting box until the FAQ though, don't know what may happen (Vanguards at 8 pts ? Rangers with a Ranger special rul perhaps ?).
EDIT: Oh, there's the Omniscient Mask relic that allows you to reroll failed Hit Rolls in CC for Skitarii units within 6". Only problem would be getting the relic bearer in range of the Dragoons but that's feasible.
Hahaha they'll be the new CC powerhouse of AdMech soon !
I infiltrate my stygia engiseer with my dragoons and mask.
Can you verify the cost for datasmith his power fist. And the total cost of onager with icarus neutron and 2* stubber.
But most important the seperate and total cost of engiseer and gis exact text on gear and if he can take any other option thanx.
Could also use a verification for relic rayment of the technomartyr is for models not unit??
And the plasma arc and trans for troops thanks.
Graia specific relic +1 cp only for dominus??
Thanks
Yoda79 wrote: I infiltrate my stygia engiseer with my dragoons and mask.
Can you verify the cost for datasmith his power fist. And the total cost of onager with icarus neutron and 2* stubber.
But most important the seperate and total cost of engiseer and gis exact text on gear and if he can take any other option thanx.
Could also use a verification for relic rayment of the technomartyr is for models not unit??
And the plasma arc and trans for troops thanks.
Graia specific relic +1 cp only for dominus??
Thanks
So, in order:
- Datasmith hasn't changed, he's 22 stock, +10 for the Gamma pistol, +20 for the Power fist, like in the Index;
- Onager (90) + Neutron Laser (45) + 2 Cognis Stubbers (2*5) = 145 pts (I feel we're not getting ripped off anymore with the price of the Stubbers);
- Tech-Priest Enginseer (40) + Servo-arm (12) + Axe and Laspistol (free) = 52 pts for the whole Enginseer
- No options whatsoever, same profile as the Index, his Master of Machines trait allows him to either repair a <Forge-World> or <Astra Militarum> Vehicle, or <Questor Imperialis> Model at 3" or less. D3 Wounds repaired for Forge-World and Astra Militarum, and only 1 Wound for the Questor Imperialis. As usual, a same target cannot be targeted by this ability more than once, except with the use of the Tech-Adept stratagem.
- Raiment of the Technomartyr: Roll a dice each time the wearer loses a Wound, on a 6 this model doesn't lose the Wound. Also, each time an allied Model of <Forge-World> at 6" or less of the wearer fires in Overwatch and gets a 6 to Hit, you can do another bonus attack with the same weapon (these boni attacks cannot generate others);
- Plasma, arc and Transuranic arquebus haven't changed either in price or in profile;
- Tech-Priest Dominus ONLY for the Graia relic that gives +1 CP
Cawl and 4 kastelans is 690 points tech priest and six kastelans is 712.... basically the same effectiveness on the kastelans but locks me into mars.... decisions decisions
Cawl and 4 kastelans is 690 points tech priest and six kastelans is 712.... basically the same effectiveness on the kastelans but locks me into mars.... decisions decisions
It isn't the same effectiveness. Robots are 4+, so Cawl is significantly better. Plus, you want Mars because of Wrath, which is unbelievably good.
You get 50% more shots effectively (half miss and you re roll them)with re rolls so each robot shooting is effectively worth 1.5 4*1.5=6 so they're exactly as effective. But that wrath of mars.... plus my robots are already painted mars. And cawl himself puts it over the top as he has that awesome gun. Only 12" range but whatever it's almost a short range onager w neutron... better even with bs 2+. Really tempting but that model is going to be a pita to put together
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
no need to be an donkey-cave, to the ignore list you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow dakka somehow that censoring seems worse than the original
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
Just saying it's something to keep in mind, no need to be a dick. ignore list for your ass too.
At this point, who isn't ignoring everyone else? This thread is just killing me!
gendoikari87 wrote: You get 50% more shots effectively (half miss and you re roll them)with re rolls so each robot shooting is effectively worth 1.5 4*1.5=6 so they're exactly as effective. But that wrath of mars.... plus my robots are already painted mars. And cawl himself puts it over the top as he has that awesome gun. Only 12" range but whatever it's almost a short range onager w neutron... better even with bs 2+. Really tempting but that model is going to be a pita to put together
I'm sorry, but you are saying re-rolling 1's and re-rolling misses are the same. That is untrue. Seriously, you can't deny that re-rolling more misses is not more effective.
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
no need to be an donkey-cave, to the ignore list you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow dakka somehow that censoring seems worse than the original
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
Just saying it's something to keep in mind, no need to be a dick. ignore list for your ass too.
At this point, who isn't ignoring everyone else? This thread is just killing me!
gendoikari87 wrote: You get 50% more shots effectively (half miss and you re roll them)with re rolls so each robot shooting is effectively worth 1.5 4*1.5=6 so they're exactly as effective. But that wrath of mars.... plus my robots are already painted mars. And cawl himself puts it over the top as he has that awesome gun. Only 12" range but whatever it's almost a short range onager w neutron... better even with bs 2+. Really tempting but that model is going to be a pita to put together
I'm sorry, but you are saying re-rolling 1's and re-rolling misses are the same. That is untrue. Seriously, you can't deny that re-rolling more misses is not more effective.
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
no need to be an donkey-cave, to the ignore list you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow dakka somehow that censoring seems worse than the original
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
Just saying it's something to keep in mind, no need to be a dick. ignore list for your ass too.
At this point, who isn't ignoring everyone else? This thread is just killing me!
Its like we're having our very own Schism
HAH! That is great!
This person thinks Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators are great screening units, moreso than Dragoons. I don't even know why they post. Can you ban people from threads? He needs to stop posting this garbage here.
I was comparing a tech priest basic model not dominus and six kastelans vs cawl and 4 kastelans. If you aren't capable of reading what I write what's the point in responding? Now I remember why I had you on ignore, worthless opinion because you are incapable of reading
gendoikari87 wrote: You get 50% more shots effectively (half miss and you re roll them)with re rolls so each robot shooting is effectively worth 1.5 4*1.5=6 so they're exactly as effective. But that wrath of mars.... plus my robots are already painted mars. And cawl himself puts it over the top as he has that awesome gun. Only 12" range but whatever it's almost a short range onager w neutron... better even with bs 2+. Really tempting but that model is going to be a pita to put together
I'm sorry, but you are saying re-rolling 1's and re-rolling misses are the same. That is untrue. Seriously, you can't deny that re-rolling more misses is not more effective.
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
no need to be an donkey-cave, to the ignore list you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow dakka somehow that censoring seems worse than the original
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
Just saying it's something to keep in mind, no need to be a dick. ignore list for your ass too.
At this point, who isn't ignoring everyone else? This thread is just killing me!
Its like we're having our very own Schism
HAH! That is great!
This person thinks Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators are great screening units, moreso than Dragoons. I don't even know why they post. Can you ban people from threads? He needs to stop posting this garbage here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gendoikari87 wrote: I was comparing a tech priest basic model not dominus and six kastelans vs cawl and 4 kastelans.
Why bother? Cawl's Wrathbots are the go-to. Everything else is casual.
It's not even out yet and you say that like it's fething gospel. This is why I don't listen to you about dragoons... well anything now but thanks for reaffirming that decision. It's like you are incapable of doing anything but parroting the common concepts. I.e. You add no value to anything
gendoikari87 wrote: It's not even out yet and you say that like it's fething gospel. This is why I don't listen to you about dragoons... well anything now but thanks for reaffirming that decision.
I say that as a seasoned AdMech player who recognizes the potential - like pretty much everyone else does. Being able to reliably (on average rolls) kill Magnus is very, very important for us. Wrathbots do it. TPD won't. So yea, it is currently gospel because we have seen the Codex and unless the FAQ/Errata radically shakes things up, it will stay that way. You would know the issues of large, durable models like Magnus if you played against more than Ravenwing.
And yea, hilariously I was right about Dragoons before and doubly-so now that they are much improved. Most folks agreed, you were the sole outlier, really. But no no, go ahead and ignore me.
Yup entirely incapable of anything but parroting. Back to ignore. People incapable of anything but parroting the common consensus add no value to the conversion. I can get that elsewhere. Try thinking outside the box. Or at least reading what I write before you respond it's patently clear you don't
If you can find a way to make your warlord the admech priest (assuming they still have keyword astra militarum) there's a relic and trait that bump your repair.
Anyone have the codex and can confirm the priest still has astra militarum?
Might be some issues with getting the priest to be your warlord if you want to transport them as well I'll look back at this when I have the codex it'll depend on the wording of certain things
gendoikari87 wrote: If you can find a way to make your warlord the admech priest (assuming they still have keyword astra militarum) there's a relic and trait that bump your repair.
Anyone have the codex and can confirm the priest still has astra militarum?
Might be some issues with getting the priest to be your warlord if you want to transport them as well I'll look back at this when I have the codex it'll depend on the wording of certain things
I'm pretty sure it completely lacks the Astra Militarum Keyword (aside from in its repair ability).
That's going to hurt then.... neat idea though. Also you could walk the priest behind and run a supreme command detachment. That should work but it'll slow the tanks down
gendoikari87 wrote: That's going to hurt then.... neat idea though. Also you could walk the priest behind and run a supreme command detachment. That should work but it'll slow the tanks down
Yeah.
Other issue is I would like to bring Trojan armoured transports with the Tech-Priests to buff the tanks with re-rolls to hit, but the Trojan has the Astra Militarum keyword so it would be a mixed detachment still.
Also don't know how competitive it would be but I'd run a steel battalion with a few priests for repairs.
Another idea is running one of the super heavy tanks with a bunch of heavy weapons teams firing out the top. Not sure that'd be any good but it'd be hilarious
gendoikari87 wrote: Yup entirely incapable of anything but parroting. Back to ignore. People incapable of anything but parroting the common consensus add no value to the conversion. I can get that elsewhere. Try thinking outside the box. Or at least reading what I write before you respond it's patently clear you don't
Not parroting. Actually tested and/or came to the conclusions myself.
I know it looks intimidating to read that much text when you can't even read my name right, don't bother. I've stopped taking you seriously long ago like half the people of this thread.
Also, I have the codex since Wednesday so if you guys have any specific questions I could help you out.
no need to be an donkey-cave, to the ignore list you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow dakka somehow that censoring seems worse than the original
First, the typical army these days has 7 CP, and practically all of it is going to be spent in the first three turns. Everyone who is thinking competitively is right now finding disgusting ways to maximize how much damage we are doing per CP spent. I just demonstrated that Dragoons use that CP more efficiently than Kastelans (under certain conditions, anyway), and they are definitely more efficiently than Crawlers:
Just saying it's something to keep in mind, no need to be a dick. ignore list for your ass too.
At this point, who isn't ignoring everyone else? This thread is just killing me!
actually snorted loudly at my work laughing at this. Got a couple of funny looks
That's going to depend on how much massed anti tank you run into if your opponent is killing them in a turn you don't have use for them. If they aren't it's probably worth it. I'll work the math out when I get home.
Ideasweasel wrote: Whoops just read the mods comment. Didn't mean to detract from the topic. Just playing catch up with all of the posts.
So Dragoons are even better now.
Excellent, love the modes and can't wait to get some. Multiples will look great on the battlefield
That love will die when you start building. Just wait, you will get to the point where you insert the joint plugs or the servitor leg tubes... and you will want to smash that model!
And painting it is an ordeal too. I know I have at least two NIB and the want to get them on the table is nil... until I think about those exploding 4's.
See you tourney circuit folks. Regarding conversions and the like: Do the organisers usually allow them or can they be quite arsey?
Do you guys bring back up official models in the event that they disqualify them?
Always wondered
Cheers
From what I have seen in non-GW tournaments the rule of cool always applies. As long as you can tell what the model is and it fits the theme of your army most seem to not care too much about 3rd party models.
Bases are important to follow the rules . Each tourney has its rules but usually if you are not extremely cheating with hights or other bad alterations i havent seen any issue.
Again bases are important and read rules fro each event.If you do a good job most likely you gonna be asked a ton of pics
See you tourney circuit folks. Regarding conversions and the like: Do the organisers usually allow them or can they be quite arsey?
Do you guys bring back up official models in the event that they disqualify them?
Always wondered
Cheers
Only GW really cares about that sort of thing. Most TOs I know are fine with any conversions. Hell, dig around Instagram for the endless Blanchitsu armies! They are all heavily converted and if a TO denied those, I bet the players would boycott!
And how many have you done? I hit peak rage after my second one was finished and by the third I had to take breaks after each leg! Now that I have kinda figured them out though a bit, I doubt it will be that bad. I think I have at least two NIB, so I need to get on it. Would be great to try out the bulldozer just to watch people's faces when those chickenwalkers wreck face.
So for those of you who really know this army, what advice would you give a newcomer (me) as to which models I need to purchase next, now that the new AB has come out? I'm waiting for my AB to arrive and I've bought a starter box and 4 Kastellans. What should be on my next order? Help me out a bit? I'll be facing a fast, hard-hitting DE army as well as Salamanders regularly.
@White Fang I have played a few games against DE, and my all-stars were my robots and my Dragoons. Vehicles seem great because they don't get the bonus from their poison weapons. Dunecrawlers are always good and seem to be a must answer threat for most of the people I play against as well.
White Fang wrote:So for those of you who really know this army, what advice would you give a newcomer (me) as to which models I need to purchase next, now that the new AB has come out? I'm waiting for my AB to arrive and I've bought a starter box and 4 Kastellans. What should be on my next order? Help me out a bit? I'll be facing a fast, hard-hitting DE army as well as Salamanders regularly.
Cawl
2x Kastellans
1-2 Onagers
3-5 Dragoons
That should put you in a good spot to run most of the "competitive" options (see previous pages for some army lists).
KampfKrote wrote:@White Fang I have played a few games against DE, and my all-stars were my robots and my Dragoons. Vehicles seem great because they don't get the bonus from their poison weapons. Dunecrawlers are always good and seem to be a must answer threat for most of the people I play against as well.
True, but they also bring a load of Dark Lances that are quite a bother.
So... Not trying to flame anyone in particular but I think I'm going to start a separate Admech thread for those who are interested in talking about the army and tactics and new codex coming out tomorrow for those who aren't hardcore tourney listers but more for the average player who wants a decent army but also wants to try and keep it fluffy and friendly.
I mean no insult by this but this thread's tone and advice no longer suits' me.
Fluffy lists I like that. Technically though you can counts as just about anything and it'd be fluffy for admech. They have the widest range in their fluff
White Fang wrote:So for those of you who really know this army, what advice would you give a newcomer (me) as to which models I need to purchase next, now that the new AB has come out? I'm waiting for my AB to arrive and I've bought a starter box and 4 Kastellans. What should be on my next order? Help me out a bit? I'll be facing a fast, hard-hitting DE army as well as Salamanders regularly.
Cawl
2x Kastellans
1-2 Onagers
3-5 Dragoons
That should put you in a good spot to run most of the "competitive" options (see previous pages for some army lists).
KampfKrote wrote:@White Fang I have played a few games against DE, and my all-stars were my robots and my Dragoons. Vehicles seem great because they don't get the bonus from their poison weapons. Dunecrawlers are always good and seem to be a must answer threat for most of the people I play against as well.
True, but they also bring a load of Dark Lances that are quite a bother.
Yeah, the times I have played against them I don't think they were really prepared to play against me, so they didn't bring as many DLs as they could have. I'm just excited to finally get the codex and have some more room to fiddle with lists.
Jaynen wrote: That is an interesting point about the fact Dragoons can be affected by the additional Skiitarii stratagems
It does make for a nasty potential unit. Dragoon Bulldozer. Run 4-5 of the suckers in a unit in Stygies, grab Remorseless Fist or Machine Might, toss down Conqueror Doctrina Imperative and slam them into an enemy unit you want deader than dead. S8 AP -1 attacks that explode on 4+ will really be rough. -2 to-hit makes them tough to shoot, so they have to be addressed in CC, which is where they excel.
I recommend 3-4, with 4 being the reliable kill for every transport and artillery piece in the game. Let your Neutron Crawlers handle T8+ tanks.
Aaranis wrote:
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Also, has anyone seen the wargear point costs for the new 'Dex? Can we potentially confirm that our Power Fists dropped in points at all? Seems to be a trend and I would love to pay 12pt instead of 20pt...
Not that it matters as much thanks to BO, but still, if we do want one at least he should be a bit cheaper (in theory).
I have the codex, I'll tell you the only points changes:
That's all for the AdMech changes. Didn't look up the eventual point changes for Knights though. So the Datasmith is still the same price, 52 points, the same cost as a squad of 4 Servitors with two Heavy Bolters (the cheapest squad possible).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, Dragoons have become deadly with the right synergies. I won't buy more than my recent Start Collecting box until the FAQ though, don't know what may happen (Vanguards at 8 pts ? Rangers with a Ranger special rul perhaps ?).
EDIT: Oh, there's the Omniscient Mask relic that allows you to reroll failed Hit Rolls in CC for Skitarii units within 6". Only problem would be getting the relic bearer in range of the Dragoons but that's feasible.
Hahaha they'll be the new CC powerhouse of AdMech soon !
Poor Fulgurites...
Mask isn't really worth it. I mean, with +2 to hit, you are essentially only rerolling 1s...
Unit1126PLL wrote:So.... at risk of stepping into a minefield, I'm going to post a question from an Astra Militarum perspective:
Without the Astra Militarum Keyword allowing Enginseers to embark in AM transports, are they still worth bringing to bodge damaged superheavy tanks?
And if so, what might the best build for that be?
Yes. Repairs are actually super important for any superheavy army. Bring one Stygies Enginseer as your warlord for the Necromechanic trait. Probably make it an Outrider detachment for Dragoons.
White Fang wrote: So for those of you who really know this army, what advice would you give a newcomer (me) as to which models I need to purchase next, now that the new AB has come out? I'm waiting for my AB to arrive and I've bought a starter box and 4 Kastellans. What should be on my next order? Help me out a bit? I'll be facing a fast, hard-hitting DE army as well as Salamanders regularly.
I have a box of Sicarians to make up this weekend. What's the best (or least bad) way to make them? Infiltrators over Ruststalkers? Taser goads over power swords, flechette blasters over stubcarbines, etc?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, do you guys prefer Rangers over Vanguard?
Rangers are better for being fully kitted out because the Arquebus is really nice, and now that Rangers are slightly cheaper they're better for cheap screens/CP generators as well.
monarda wrote: I have a box of Sicarians to make up this weekend. What's the best (or least bad) way to make them? Infiltrators over Ruststalkers? Taser goads over power swords, flechette blasters over stubcarbines, etc?
Definitely Infiltrators, a deep striking unit always helps and Ruststalkers... are just really bad this edition.
It's surely a massive mistake, but the question is...where is this statline from? What series of events would occur for such a radically different profile to appear in the digital edition. It's not just one or two things changed, it's an entirely different model. Looks like an HQ to me, too many wounds and attacks and the BS/WS and save are HQlvl... could be another named character?
So, I know this is a tactics thread, and I don't mean to detract from the conversation at all, but I recently bought a lot from someone and have 10 robots now. Two of them don't have arms, and I started to think about conversions.
How would you guys feel about seeing robots with chicken legs and taser lances?
KampfKrote wrote: So, I know this is a tactics thread, and I don't mean to detract from the conversation at all, but I recently bought a lot from someone and have 10 robots now. Two of them don't have arms, and I started to think about conversions.
How would you guys feel about seeing robots with chicken legs and taser lances?
I'm sure you could pull that off in a cool way.
Honestly though?
Take an army with 8 robots Don't forget to battle report the carnage!
8 robots... that should kill about 50 marines a turn if you're in range.
Atm before faq or errata. You can use infiltrators for mars. They benefit from dual canticles skitarii hit buff for a taser of 5+ cc and wrath of mars. That said flechett and tasers is the way for mass dice anti horde options. Most used when you dont want forge worlds like Stygia or Lucius. Cheapish not superb.
If you dont plan to use warth on them cause your lists has 2 many anti infantry . Then trymthe sturcrb andmswords for more elite options. But but... i trully belive in current meta focusing on one plan brings results. So taking 10 inf can become a force that could even threat guard flanks. The point investment atm and with stygia lucius options dont make them appealing. Somewhat priests are good troops can do work now while dragoons is the real choise.
You cant have unlimited gems so units with a clear role cn help all rounds while you focus your gems where need.
For elite targets electrostaff priests stygia can do itmwith mortals less buffs.
And now I thought about using what I heard being called Dragoon battle ram - I could simply remove the Infiltrators and get one squad of 2 Dragoons to 4. Basically I'm sacrificing a proper Infiltration unit to supercharge one of my screen units. Would that be worth it?
I'd highly recommend waiting for the incoming FAQ for our new Codex before building your Skitarii infantry if you're looking for efficiency. There were rumours about point cost changes so be wary they don't invert the costs of the Rangers and Vanguards or something. Personnaly I've bought another Start Collecting and I'll be mounting them as Vanguards because I just prefer the way they look (and their guns) so I hope they won't go up in cost anymore, I'd rather have them at 8 pts and 9pts for the Rangers, IF they gave them a useful rule. Now it feels wrong to have Rangers who used to be scout-like thanks to their special rules for moving through terrain, now they're suddenly the basic bland trooper, feels wrong. Vanguards are the most basic soldiers with the Assault guns.
The pic of the wrong Dragoon profile will begin conspiracy theories, I guarantee it They most likely took a profile from a Xeno hero or something. I assure you their statline is the same as ever.
I'm hesitating as for the two Skitarii I want to give Arc Rifles to, Rangers or Vanguards ? I believe it fits more the Vanguards' range, but trading one or two S6 AP1 shots against the Radium Carbine seems like a tough choice to me, the Strength of the Vanguards lies in the volume of fire they pump out, one gun less reduces that volume of radioactive weaponry to just toxic fireworks.
Also I think I'm going to run squads of 7-8 Vanguards, seems like a decent compromise between Ld issues and volume of fire. I'll try to keep them near Dragoons or Dunecrawlers for the +1 Ld to help a bit but as always, it'll depend on the strategy to adopt with my current opponent. I like Vanguards for the synergy of locking them in CC to pair with another dedicated CC unit that will benefit from the -1 T debuff, it's still something huge in my opinion. 7-8 Vanguards should allow me to keep at least one alive each time I make a charge against something I want dead. Lock them with T5 in CC and attack with your +2 to Hit Dragoons and you'll rip them open. I often play against a Death Guard player and now that he'll have his codex and new units I'm eager to have a taste of what my army can do against his now.
I don't remember who told me earlier here that the reroll failed Hit rolls for the +2 Dragoons is irrelevant but you're right, I was so in love with the 4+ Tesla that I forgot it made them it on 1+ too A 1 is always a fail but still, that's awesome.
Aaranis wrote: I'd highly recommend waiting for the incoming FAQ for our new Codex before building your Skitarii infantry if you're looking for efficiency. There were rumours about point cost changes so be wary they don't invert the costs of the Rangers and Vanguards or something. Personnaly I've bought another Start Collecting and I'll be mounting them as Vanguards because I just prefer the way they look (and their guns) so I hope they won't go up in cost anymore, I'd rather have them at 8 pts and 9pts for the Rangers, IF they gave them a useful rule. Now it feels wrong to have Rangers who used to be scout-like thanks to their special rules for moving through terrain, now they're suddenly the basic bland trooper, feels wrong. Vanguards are the most basic soldiers with the Assault guns.
The pic of the wrong Dragoon profile will begin conspiracy theories, I guarantee it They most likely took a profile from a Xeno hero or something. I assure you their statline is the same as ever.
I'm hesitating as for the two Skitarii I want to give Arc Rifles to, Rangers or Vanguards ? I believe it fits more the Vanguards' range, but trading one or two S6 AP1 shots against the Radium Carbine seems like a tough choice to me, the Strength of the Vanguards lies in the volume of fire they pump out, one gun less reduces that volume of radioactive weaponry to just toxic fireworks.
Also I think I'm going to run squads of 7-8 Vanguards, seems like a decent compromise between Ld issues and volume of fire. I'll try to keep them near Dragoons or Dunecrawlers for the +1 Ld to help a bit but as always, it'll depend on the strategy to adopt with my current opponent. I like Vanguards for the synergy of locking them in CC to pair with another dedicated CC unit that will benefit from the -1 T debuff, it's still something huge in my opinion. 7-8 Vanguards should allow me to keep at least one alive each time I make a charge against something I want dead. Lock them with T5 in CC and attack with your +2 to Hit Dragoons and you'll rip them open. I often play against a Death Guard player and now that he'll have his codex and new units I'm eager to have a taste of what my army can do against his now.
I don't remember who told me earlier here that the reroll failed Hit rolls for the +2 Dragoons is irrelevant but you're right, I was so in love with the 4+ Tesla that I forgot it made them it on 1+ too A 1 is always a fail but still, that's awesome.
Now why do they cost so much in money ? :(
I wouldn't mind a point swap, given I don't have any Rangers built aside from some Arquebus units.
Arc Rifles can go on either unless you're Metallica, then you want them on Rangers. Caliber always on Vanguard, Arquebus always on Rangers.
If you're referring to Omniscient Mask, that was me. Also, it should be 2+, not 1+, as 1 is always an auto-fail, right?
They're pricey because they're annoyingly intricate.
Yeah I'm just not too big on Arc Rifles this edition. It was nice for suicide units with Drop Pods a long time ago, but otherwise I don't feel wowed. Arqs got a huge buff and Plasma, while losing shot, is significantly cheaper than before.
I use 2*5 rangers and give them 1 arc each. Wish i could give rifle on alphas
2*6-7 vanguards if i got points alphas with taser. Usualy stock
2*5 rangers arq. Always omnispex.
That seems to work for me low cost great utility . If you increase numbers 8+ +1 arc 10 +2.
If you plan to go 10 mqn vang then plasmas 3*. But those alter plans from basic screeners stock --> effective --> full gear.
Battlescribe got some update its awful. I prefer point cost 9 vang 8 rang. Since vang are better. And sniper remain low on cost.
Yoda79 wrote: I use 2*5 rangers and give them 1 arc each. Wish i could give rifle on alphas
2*6-7 vanguards if i got points alphas with taser. Usualy stock
2*5 rangers arq. Always omnispex.
That seems to work for me low cost great utility . If you increase numbers 8+ +1 arc 10 +2.
If you plan to go 10 mqn vang then plasmas 3*. But those alter plans from basic screeners stock --> effective --> full gear.
Battlescribe got some update its awful. I prefer point cost 9 vang 8 rang. Since vang are better. And sniper remain low on cost.
Yeah I believe I'll just add them the hoodless heads so that they can fit in both units depending on my list.
I'll definitely add a second Arquebus unit with my next purchase, in 2000 pts games they'd be really useful.
I wouldn't dare give that many plasmas to a single unit, they'll just get shot first :/ I have one plasma Vanguard and I believe I'll keep it that way.
White Fang wrote:So for those of you who really know this army, what advice would you give a newcomer (me) as to which models I need to purchase next, now that the new AB has come out? I'm waiting for my AB to arrive and I've bought a starter box and 4 Kastellans. What should be on my next order? Help me out a bit? I'll be facing a fast, hard-hitting DE army as well as Salamanders regularly.
Cawl 2x Kastellans 1-2 Onagers 3-5 Dragoons
That should put you in a good spot to run most of the "competitive" options (see previous pages for some army lists).
KampfKrote wrote:@White Fang I have played a few games against DE, and my all-stars were my robots and my Dragoons. Vehicles seem great because they don't get the bonus from their poison weapons. Dunecrawlers are always good and seem to be a must answer threat for most of the people I play against as well.
True, but they also bring a load of Dark Lances that are quite a bother.
Hey Em, I am thinking about the following list for Game Empire and the SoCal open. What do you think? This is basically my "minimum amount of model kits I need to buy" list. I can run this with only buying the Codex + 1 more Kastelon robot box. 10CP, Mars/Cawl/Robots + an AM support battalion. The idea would be to stack every model around the kastelons. 55 total bodies + the ballistari and icarus to base block from the rear. Put the Enginseer in deep with the robots to get that extra attack on a 6 on overwatch. 1999 points.
Mars Battalion Cawl 250 Enginseer 52 [extra shot in overwatch on a 6 relic] Dakkastelons x6 660 Icarus 135 - had 10 spare points, put on the stubbers Icarus 135 Ballistari x2 190 - I am thinking I can use these as cheap neutrons against air with that +2 to hit strategem Rangers with 2 Arc - 48 - 8 points of arc rifles makes this squad shoot meaningfully harder Rangers with 2 Arc - 48 Rangers with 2 Arc - 48
Mixed AM Battalion Lord Commisar 55 - bolt weapon and power maul. 20 points for extra wound and 5++ and filling an HQ slot over the 30 point commisar Tempestor Prime 40 - rod and chainsword Scion Command 64 - 4x plasma Scion Troop 66 - 2x plasma + 1x plasma pistol Conscripts 60 Conscripts 60 Dakka Taurox 88 - Gatler + HSVolleygun x2 + Storm bolter - this is the iffiest thing in the list. I really like my conversion that has rolling rubber tires. It has 14" move and could snag me an objective. It also can body block and doesn't need auras to bring its very point efficient shooting to the table (88 points for 30 str4 shots is a steal).
Hey Em, I am thinking about the following list for Game Empire and the SoCal open. What do you think? This is basically my "minimum amount of model kits I need to buy" list. I can run this with only buying the Codex + 1 more Kastelon robot box. 10CP, Mars/Cawl/Robots + an AM support battalion. The idea would be to stack every model around the kastelons. 55 total bodies + the ballistari and icarus to base block from the rear. Put the Enginseer in deep with the robots to get that extra attack on a 6 on overwatch. 1999 points.
Mars Battalion Cawl 250
Enginseer 52 [extra shot in overwatch on a 6 relic]
Dakkastelons x6 660
Icarus 135 - had 10 spare points, put on the stubbers
Icarus 135
Ballistari x2 190 - I am thinking I can use these as cheap neutrons against air with that +2 to hit strategem
Rangers with 2 Arc - 48 - 8 points of arc rifles makes this squad shoot meaningfully harder
Rangers with 2 Arc - 48
Rangers with 2 Arc - 48
Mixed AM Battalion Lord Commisar 55 - bolt weapon and power maul. 20 points for extra wound and 5++ and filling an HQ slot over the 30 point commisar
Tempestor Prime 40 - rod and chainsword
Scion Command 64 - 4x plasma
Scion Troop 66 - 2x plasma + 1x plasma pistol
Conscripts 60
Conscripts 60
Dakka Taurox 88 - Gatler + HSVolleygun x2 + Storm bolter - this is the iffiest thing in the list. I really like my conversion that has rolling rubber tires. It has 14" move and could snag me an objective. It also can body block and doesn't need auras to bring its very point efficient shooting to the table (88 points for 30 str4 shots is a steal).
Not a fan of Ballistarii. I just think they are subpar - but they might work since you aren't taking Neutronagers, which I would consider mandatory. Not sure the Taurox is that useful. Seems an odd fit. More Scions would probably be better.
Hey Em, I am thinking about the following list for Game Empire and the SoCal open. What do you think? This is basically my "minimum amount of model kits I need to buy" list. I can run this with only buying the Codex + 1 more Kastelon robot box. 10CP, Mars/Cawl/Robots + an AM support battalion. The idea would be to stack every model around the kastelons. 55 total bodies + the ballistari and icarus to base block from the rear. Put the Enginseer in deep with the robots to get that extra attack on a 6 on overwatch. 1999 points.
Mars Battalion Cawl 250 Enginseer 52 [extra shot in overwatch on a 6 relic] Dakkastelons x6 660 Icarus 135 - had 10 spare points, put on the stubbers Icarus 135 Ballistari x2 190 - I am thinking I can use these as cheap neutrons against air with that +2 to hit strategem Rangers with 2 Arc - 48 - 8 points of arc rifles makes this squad shoot meaningfully harder Rangers with 2 Arc - 48 Rangers with 2 Arc - 48
Mixed AM Battalion Lord Commisar 55 - bolt weapon and power maul. 20 points for extra wound and 5++ and filling an HQ slot over the 30 point commisar Tempestor Prime 40 - rod and chainsword Scion Command 64 - 4x plasma Scion Troop 66 - 2x plasma + 1x plasma pistol Conscripts 60 Conscripts 60 Dakka Taurox 88 - Gatler + HSVolleygun x2 + Storm bolter - this is the iffiest thing in the list. I really like my conversion that has rolling rubber tires. It has 14" move and could snag me an objective. It also can body block and doesn't need auras to bring its very point efficient shooting to the table (88 points for 30 str4 shots is a steal).
Not a fan of Ballistarii. I just think they are subpar - but they might work since you aren't taking Neutronagers, which I would consider mandatory. Not sure the Taurox is that useful. Seems an odd fit. More Scions would probably be better.
The alternate list would be to turn the ballistari into Dragoons and use them as the counter assault squad.
Would you really take 2 Neutrons over 2 Icarus? The Icarus is so consistent against so many targets, where the neutrons tend to only smoke the odd rhino here or there. The onager problem is why I gravitate towards the ballistari, since a battalion has only 3 heavy support slots and I can't plausibly get another onager on the field.
This would be an alternative that doesn't have the ballistari and the Taurox.
Yea, that looks solid. Dragoons should perform well, even if not the optimal Stygies version. They were good before and still are.
The Icarus Array has been such a mixed bag for me, while the Neutron has been something that when it hits can be a game changer. One of each is probably a good way to go. Just so you can randomly pop Razorbacks and swat down flyers too.
Guard batt
Guar batt
Mars spearhead
Stygia outrider.
Would be best . Almost same list remove one robot take company commander comisar 3* infantry for cheap batt. Ret almost same more cp drop dragoons with inf. Spend cp for buffs wrath and dragoons.
To the above, if you realllly drill down on the competitive side, then turning the (Rangers and Enginseer) into (Commander and Conscripts) is technically more competitive and nets you 1 CP. The trouble is that I am unwilling to really go up to that 80 conscript level because I just don't want to buy that many models that are up for a nerf. I want to run a serious Spike list, but even I have my Johnny limits (that just so happen to coincide with my $$$ limits).
Also, I think that dragoon outrider detachments are not as good as they seem. They require a tax HQ and necessarily have 3 separate fast attack choices. The reason the 2 dragoons in mars works is because they are both in the same unit and both get the +2 to hit when I activate the strategem. Blobs of dragoons are super strong, single dragoons aren't as good. In addition, literally everything in my army is a better target than my Mars dragoons. Even if they are only at -1, you should be shooting at all the other stuff, not them.
EDIT: this would be the hardest cheese, super strongest, most up to the meta spam list I can think of per Yoda79's suggestions. This is in keeping with the ITC 3 detachment limit.
Ofc if i use dragoons i use them 1*3 as you have. I was merely splitting your list. And outrider stygia offers 2 balistarii as flank defence.
Balostarii
Balostarii
3* dragoons. Maxing cps for wrath on robots and boosting dragoons. You used engiseer for mars batt. That one i took. If you are ok with no balistarii etc sure.
My list is batt batt spewrhead yes. But atm i make only ad mech solo list. And since we talking about even before codex i use guard infantry not conscripts. I tend to play my army not buy bodies. Move them shoot them etc. What is need with comander and comissar.
It was an answer maximizing your list with your models. But if you like the 2* batt i agree sure but both better than the siggested one. My advice still
1*3 dragoons mim 2-3 neutronager must with so many robots and dragoons. Neutronagers also can be buffed is need to kill air or just 4+ Cawl rerols.
Wulfey: What's your game plan against the mirror? I'm legit worried about our >36" shooting.
Also, another option if you guys are running Mars Brigade with only a single blob of Dragoons is an Auxiliary detachment. You lose 1CP, but skip the HQ tax.
Mirror is just going to be lame. Alpha strike versus alpha strike means that whoever goes first wins. If I go up against 6 robots, the game is decided before the first battle round.
If I go up against a more balanced admech list that has less robots, then I have the scions to outplay the objectives and kill more critical units. And my conscript/ranger screen is superior to any pure admech screen. No admech lists are good at getting across the board and tying up robots in combat. In sum, whoever has more robots and goes first is going to win.
EDIT: also, to the 36" point. Remember there is a 1CP stratgem RAGE OF THE MACHINES that lets me ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. So if I have to I can move the robots 8" to get into position.
On neutron vs. icarus, remember that dunecrawlers are skitarii and can benefit from the Protector Doctrina Imperative stratagem. Your neutronager can be hitting a stormraven on a 2+ for 1 command point.
Elite
Ruststalkers - Blades and Claw on Princeps, Claw and Razor on the rest
Fast Attack
Dragoon - Lance and Phosphor Serpenta
Dragoon - Lance and Phosphor Serpenta
Heavy Support
Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser
Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser
Dunecrawler - Icarus Array
Lord of War
Knight Warden - Avenger Gatling, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Per Battlescribe this puts me at 1893 pts. One fairly obvious choice would be to add a unit of Fulgerites, but I am trying to cleave closer to Skitarii only. I could double the size of the Sicarians or add a second unit. The Sicarians work well with the deployment Strategem of Stygies (not as well as Fulgerites, but that's a whole different story). I have quite a bit of long range fire power, so I don't really think adding an Iron strider is all that necessary. I could fit two Enginseers and have them follow the Knight around or camp near the Onagers (which would allow me to turn the Onagers and one of the Dominus into a Spearhead).
Wulfey: I agree with the premise of your mirror match up (alpha strike wins), but I don't think that's how it is going to work. Both sides are going to castle up. Nobody is going to be in range turn one. Each side is then going to try to force the other to move into 44" range. The first person who moves Kastelans into the range of the other wins because with Binharic Override, the side that moves in first shoots first. Therefore, 48" shooting and screens will decide the game. Can Conscripts and Scions stand up to Aegis Kastelans, Dragoons, and Crawlers?
I dont see any datasmith around. So if you change protocl with gem then you ll be stationary. I got 3 neutronagers that eventually will oit survive yoir list and will outrange and outheal your robots. If you believe i cant defend vs plasma with a stygia batt come try your 4 deep strikes vs my simple -1 troops. Dragoons onagers enough to win. Try pushing your conscrips up field and we ll see who comes winning in the end. Even dual stubber on neutronagers will rip your force when sniper get commisar oit in first round. Guard has 100 alpha strike plasma 3-4 commisars and bodies. Ad mech has the best anti tank weapon before titans . Your list has nothing of those.
Dont get me wrong just trying to give you a heads up. Not convince for something. Stationary robots from round one can be outranged and if your list has 6 and cawl its 50% of you list . Yes you ll ruin your friends day but we talking competitive. Can be played hard but most likely doable. Dragoons also got -2 for shooting 12"+ not melee!!
Suzuteo wrote: Wulfey: I agree with the premise of your mirror match up (alpha strike wins), but I don't think that's how it is going to work. Both sides are going to castle up. Nobody is going to be in range turn one. Each side is then going to try to force the other to move into 44" range. The first person who moves Kastelans into the range of the other wins because with Binharic Override, the side that moves in first shoots first. Therefore, 48" shooting and screens will decide the game. Can Conscripts and Scions stand up to Aegis Kastelans, Dragoons, and Crawlers?
I do think it is obviously going to be close. What do you think the target priority should be? The player who double shoots first should ... I think distribute their robot shots across many units? As much as robots are devastating, they are kind of bad at shooting against robots since volume of fire against mortal wound reflections is really bad. Assuming I am starting my shooting phase in a mirror, I think I spread each robot's 18 shots into a different screening infantry unit. Then I put any hard hitting anti-tank (neutron) into the other guy's robots. I think I save my scions in reserve until the robots don't have aegis anymore and don't have shroudpsalm (only a 5++ then) or until another good target is exposed within 12" (since scions are only worth deepstriking if you can rapid fire). I am assuming my conscripts are irrelevant, but if they can pop off some lasgun fire into some screening units I will take it. This is making me think about using a second neutron since neutron is one of the few trully all star weapons against robots. If either player's screen dies, then the dragoons can make combat and the first player to get the other guy's robots in combat wins the game.
Also, this codex needs a FAQ on two strategems. RAGE OF THE MACHINES and BENEVOLENCE OF THE OMNISSIAH both apply to a single VEHICLE. But admech has several UNITS of vehicles (ironstriders + kastelons). So does only 1 robot get to shrug off mortal wounds on a 5+ or ignore the heavy+move penalty? Or is all the robots?
EDIT: em_en's comment below is exactly why I keep running more Icarus than Neutron. Rolling the 1 shot and then a 2 to wound is just so sad. This is also why I kept running double ballistari since they had a stable 4 lascannon shots for 50 more points than the D3 shots of the Onager.
Arachnofiend wrote: On neutron vs. icarus, remember that dunecrawlers are skitarii and can benefit from the Protector Doctrina Imperative stratagem. Your neutronager can be hitting a stormraven on a 2+ for 1 command point.
Hitting isn't usually the issue. It often that the d3 winds up being one stupid shot and then we have to wound which invariably we roll a 1.
It is now the OP updating time, which means new official tactical entries for the new Codex. I’d like to enlist your help in writing new and complete entries for each unit, so I can mash them together and put them in OP. I’ll work on writing my own data for this task, and post my first impressions when I read my book.
Verviedi wrote: It is now the OP updating time, which means new official tactical entries for the new Codex. I’d like to enlist your help in writing new and complete entries for each unit, so I can mash them together and put them in OP. I’ll work on writing my own data for this task, and post my first impressions when I read my book.
I do think it is obviously going to be close. What do you think the target priority should be? The player who double shoots first should ... I think distribute their robot shots across many units? As much as robots are devastating, they are kind of bad at shooting against robots since volume of fire against mortal wound reflections is really bad. Assuming I am starting my shooting phase in a mirror, I think I spread each robot's 18 shots into a different screening infantry unit. Then I put any hard hitting anti-tank (neutron) into the other guy's robots. I think I save my scions in reserve until the robots don't have aegis anymore and don't have shroudpsalm (only a 5++ then) or until another good target is exposed within 12" (since scions are only worth deepstriking if you can rapid fire). I am assuming my conscripts are irrelevant, but if they can pop off some lasgun fire into some screening units I will take it. This is making me think about using a second neutron since neutron is one of the few trully all star weapons against robots. If either player's screen dies, then the dragoons can make combat and the first player to get the other guy's robots in combat wins the game.
Also, this codex needs a FAQ on two strategems. RAGE OF THE MACHINES and BENEVOLENCE OF THE OMNISSIAH both apply to a single VEHICLE. But admech has several UNITS of vehicles (ironstriders + kastelons). So does only 1 robot get to shrug off mortal wounds on a 5+ or ignore the heavy+move penalty? Or is all the robots?
EDIT: em_en's comment below is exactly why I keep running more Icarus than Neutron. Rolling the 1 shot and then a 2 to wound is just so sad. This is also why I kept running double ballistari since they had a stable 4 lascannon shots for 50 more points than the D3 shots of the Onager.
As I would advise anyone playing against my army: kill my Kastelans first. They are the most vulnerable part of my army, but also the most devastating. But yes, assuming you are >44" from the enemy's Kastelans, you will be shooting at infantry in Aegis mode. Neutron Crawlers should be shooting other Neutron Crawlers. First person to Protector automatically loses because the other side's Kastelans can walk up to 36" without facing return fire, then walk in on his turn and lay waste to your rooted Kastelans. That or just fry them with Neutron Lasers from afar.
6 Protector Kastelans kill 4.5 Aegis Kastelans on average with Wrath of Mars. Whichever side has fewer Kastelans after the first volley loses utilizes CP less efficiently. Everything in the mirror rides on who can kill the other side's Kastelans first or engage them in CC, and who dictate that is whoever has more 48" guns or Dragoons.
I still think 6 Kastelans is too much for precisely this reason. I actually bring 2 Icarus and 2 Neutron, but I may just go 4 Neutron with extra Stubbers if I can find the points.
Arachnofiend wrote: On neutron vs. icarus, remember that dunecrawlers are skitarii and can benefit from the Protector Doctrina Imperative stratagem. Your neutronager can be hitting a stormraven on a 2+ for 1 command point.
Hitting isn't usually the issue. It often that the d3 winds up being one stupid shot and then we have to wound which invariably we roll a 1.
Another reason why I am slowly beginning to think 100% Neutron is tempting...
Verviedi wrote: It is now the OP updating time, which means new official tactical entries for the new Codex. I’d like to enlist your help in writing new and complete entries for each unit, so I can mash them together and put them in OP. I’ll work on writing my own data for this task, and post my first impressions when I read my book.
new thread?
I agree a new thread is necessary. It'll help the collective here be more organized. I'd love to contribute if you want me to though.
I havs stressed the issue so many times. Neutronagers with dual srubber is the way. Habing cp to reroll some dice also help. So many robots for wrath are enough for all issues we might have. Yes we gonna face bigger issues with Tau or heavy -1 to hit armies sure. But we cant have all. Still you ll got enough to deal with almost all threats.
I use 4 robots 3 neutronagers. Seems able to kill and win vs most enemies. Snipers dragoons deal with tne rest. Cant have ir all. As i have said from codex release i have my onagers with icarus and gotta change them. Was a decisions but if you go heavy robots thats it. Use snipers use arc rifles use gem on neutron use Cawl use even stubbers on air units 4+ rerollable is not bad. I prefer to be less effective vs a skimmer army than not being able to have a chance vs knight armies fortif. Heavy armor armies in generall.
You might not see it so much in frienbly matches but you will soon enough. A 4 knight army is not uncommon. Nor a heavy transport list nor a heavy tank list. Icarus str6 shots are pure antihorde and the only reall issue was against most likely eldar(heavy skimmer,tau). But as we go lower in toughness we got options to simply wound. As we go higher we dont. And its a shame when we got one of the best guns around and with 2 stubbers 145 cost. You can try and find your own sweet spot for onagers but i will use 3 from my gaming experience.
Its exactly the same talk as with arc rifle. We dont take Robots for str 6 but for the volume of fire and -2 - Cover.
Icarus has str 6 and str 7 placing it par with robot in many cases. Same goes for lascannon. You can roll good hit even with no reroll you can get a bad wound roll but also a bad damage roll.
While Onager with cawl reroll Hit is no issue ,wound roll is an issue but str 10 best we got and damage MINimum 3-6. Does not compete. Even on fliers.
Always 2 neutronagers with Cawl stygia rest for if you want!
These are action figures! 
