I really want to use the monolith and like it.....unfortunately it doesn't have much fire power. I think this list is a great attempt, but it's all hyper-focused on the lychguard and the monolith......I'm not sure it would be very effective. I think you'd have tough time dealing with multiple Monsters/vehicles as there's not a lot in the list that has much punch. I think it would be fun to try in a casual game though for sure.
Two night scythes would allow you to dump out the lychguard within range and would save you about 60 points IIRC (by leaving out the monolith). Then you could use the deceiver to move the wraiths up immediately also....or take the deceiver out and use the points elsewhere.
I almost feel like the DDark is an auto-include....maybe not for this list.
Anpu-adom wrote: It was a poorly worded question, and so the answer had no bearing. Besides, the Facebook crew have said that they aren't an official source for rulings...
So, it's a fart in the wind... best let it go.
If you read further down in the comments for that question Warhammer 40000 responds again. Here are two quotes in sequence
"Chris Holden: I believe it falls under the same catagory as the Raven Guard's Statagem and Genestealer Cult exceptions as it isn't holding them back in reserve as such and it is before the first battle round begins."
"Warhammer 40,000: As Chris has said, this can be benefited from as you're re-deploying a unit which is already on the table."
That response was about a question of the Deciever's Grand Illusion ability though, not the VoD
Kutlakh connects with Lychguard pooring out of Monolith for a 11" move and then a charge. Pop the 3++ stratagem first turn.
Wraiths protect Deceiver turn one, reanimate turn two, cc freely within enemy ranks. Scarabs move up to connect with Deceiver if he is left behind by the Wraiths.
Enemy ideally is too busy to care about monolith. If helpful, and if CP, Immortals late game teleports.
Cryptek connects with Lychguard or Wraiths using 16"movement, uses staff to help prevent overwatch.
If you use the Monolith's Dimensional Corridor Stratagem, it all but guarantees a first turn charge.
Deploy both the Monolith and the Lychguard on the board and not hovering/on a Tomb World
Redeploy Monolith 12.1" away from an enemy unit with Grand Illusion
Dimensional Corridor the Lychguard to wholly within 3" of the Monolith, putting them 9.1" from the enemy unit
Move them 5"
Make a 5"+ charge roll (with optional reroll via the strat)
I've been toying around with a similar slingshot maneuver for a unit of Flayed Ones, and if I can do it without the Deciever.
If you use the Monolith's Dimensional Corridor Stratagem, it all but guarantees a first turn charge.
Deploy both the Monolith and the Lychguard on the board and not hovering/on a Tomb World
Redeploy Monolith 12.1" away from an enemy unit with Grand Illusion
Dimensional Corridor the Lychguard to wholly within 3" of the Monolith, putting them 9.1" from the enemy unit
Move them 5"
Make a 5"+ charge roll (with optional reroll via the strat)
I've been toying around with a similar slingshot maneuver for a unit of Flayed Ones, and if I can do it without the Deciever.
Hmm...this has piqued my interest...I might need to tinker with this concept.
If you use the Monolith's Dimensional Corridor Stratagem, it all but guarantees a first turn charge.
Deploy both the Monolith and the Lychguard on the board and not hovering/on a Tomb World
Redeploy Monolith 12.1" away from an enemy unit with Grand Illusion
Dimensional Corridor the Lychguard to wholly within 3" of the Monolith, putting them 9.1" from the enemy unit
Move them 5"
Make a 5"+ charge roll (with optional reroll via the strat)
I've been toying around with a similar slingshot maneuver for a unit of Flayed Ones, and if I can do it without the Deciever.
Hmm...this has piqued my interest...I might need to tinker with this concept.
I think it has some teeth to it, definitely needs the right support network though....
Grimgold wrote:I think Nephrek should be the default dynasty for battalions if you are running more than 1 detachment, not only are they good for destroyers, but they are arguably our best dynasty for troops. Moving 11" a turn through, over, and past obstacles/enemy units is great for obsec units. I recently went undefeated in a tournament in part because I was so good at getting on objectives and holding them. It also makes our foot HQ much more mobile as well, which enables mobile phalanxes.
Mephrit requires our troops to be close to get the advantage of -1 AP, which is easier said than done for units that moves 5". Nihilakh requires them to stand still to get the reroll ones to hit, which we won't get if we send our troops to capture objectives. I don't see Warriors and immortals taking advantage of Novokh, they aren't really great in CC and are too slow to catch the few units that are worse in CC.
If I were going mono detachment sautekh would probably be my choice, since they are the second best for our troops (maybe best depending on application), since they can advance and fire their weapons. The dynasty also buffs several units such as CCBs, Annihilation barges, Doom Scythes, and wraiths with Transdimensional beamers. Access to the majority of our special characters is what seals the deal.
Nihilakh seems the best for a spearhead detachment, go for two DDA a spyder and a cloak tek, so they repair any incoming damage and the DDA can reroll ones since they don't have to move with their range.
I agree with this assessment. I like running a mono Dynasty with Immotekh, though I can see how a Nihilakh spearhead and Novokh Outrider are powerful. Similarly to the Tyranid book taking different detachments from different hive fleets, I see competitive Necron lists running at least 2, if not 3 different dynasties. Sautehk or Mephrit for the battalion depending on flavor, with Nihilakh and Novokh detachments.
Novokh vanguard. Forget Pretorians, i don't know what to do with them, but lychguard and flayed ones are the two most wound pumping units we have (lychguard vs multi wound models, flayed ones vs multiple models), Reroll to hit is just a big bonus. Blood rite stratagem is just the icing on the cake. Deepstriking won't help them charge, you need an invasion beam. So you need to build a fair share of your army around it. But there's something to do here. May be with a mephrit warrior bataillon.
And i like Sautekh DDA. Once you blow up the necessary treats on T1-T2, you find out moving and firing S8 D3 is good enough, and you need these 20 rapid fire guns and hard shell to crack on the front lines.
I think Flayed Ones need to be considered in that list to support the Lychguard. Offensively, point for point, Flayed Ones are actually in a good spot. It's just delivery that's an issue.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think Flayed Ones need to be considered in that list to support the Lychguard. Offensively, point for point, Flayed Ones are actually in a good spot. It's just delivery that's an issue.
Not a bad concept. The question is, do you deep strike them turn 2 as backup, or use them as the primary assault force, bearing in mind the whole unit has to arrive within 3 inches of the Monolith before movement or is destroyed. Just food for thought here.
Anpu-adom wrote: It was a poorly worded question, and so the answer had no bearing. Besides, the Facebook crew have said that they aren't an official source for rulings...
So, it's a fart in the wind... best let it go.
If you read further down in the comments for that question Warhammer 40000 responds again. Here are two quotes in sequence
"Chris Holden: I believe it falls under the same catagory as the Raven Guard's Statagem and Genestealer Cult exceptions as it isn't holding them back in reserve as such and it is before the first battle round begins."
"Warhammer 40,000: As Chris has said, this can be benefited from as you're re-deploying a unit which is already on the table."
That response was about a question of the Deciever's Grand Illusion ability though, not the VoD
Yeah....the important thing to pay attention to is their response. "you're re-deploying a unit which is already on the table."
I'm done posting or talking about this in this thread though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think Flayed Ones need to be considered in that list to support the Lychguard. Offensively, point for point, Flayed Ones are actually in a good spot. It's just delivery that's an issue.
Not a bad concept. The question is, do you deep strike them turn 2 as backup, or use them as the primary assault force, bearing in mind the whole unit has to arrive within 3 inches of the Monolith before movement or is destroyed. Just food for thought here.
That's definitely important to think about.....the monolith has a pretty large footprint though. I think you could manage to be within 3 inches.
I don't like giving up on the Wraiths, if deceived to enemy's doorstep they pose a big enough threat that they will be soaking up fire that may save the monolith and lychguard and they do reasonably well against hordes if need be. And Nephrekh they dart 18" in a straight line and charge with a stratagem if need be.
If you use the Monolith's Dimensional Corridor Stratagem, it all but guarantees a first turn charge.
I know. I presumed the Lychguard would probably charge and kill something without losing much in assault.
Then they'll die as they'd be all alone in the middle of your opponents army. They aren't going to withstand an armies worth of offense.
Also, I didn't say this was even a bad idea. I just wondered what his actual plan was after that happened. To which he responded. I do agree the Monolith will probably be ignored, it's not dangerous/easy enough to kill to worry about it. I disagree that Kutlakh would ever reach the Lychguard; they're going to be dead before he gets there.
If you use the Monolith's Dimensional Corridor Stratagem, it all but guarantees a first turn charge.
I know. I presumed the Lychguard would probably charge and kill something without losing much in assault.
Then they'll die as they'd be all alone in the middle of your opponents army. They aren't going to withstand an armies worth of offense.
Also, I didn't say this was even a bad idea. I just wondered what his actual plan was after that happened. To which he responded. I do agree the Monolith will probably be ignored, it's not dangerous/easy enough to kill to worry about it. I disagree that Kutlakh would ever reach the Lychguard; they're going to be dead before he gets there.
100% agree. Once your opponent sees what lychguard are capable of they'll be focus fired until they're dead.
That being said, putting a giant threat with big neon-arrow pointing at itself saying "SHOOT ME" is still a good strategy. If it's a good enough and tough enough threat, it does draw all the fire while allowing the entire rest of your army to move up and have the rest of the board.
That kind of play style alone is usually enough to win and Maelstrom or turn-based scoring missions. You can run out to a big lead and hang on avoiding getting tabled. Fortunately Necrons have some speed and/or durability to make that happen.
torblind wrote: I don't like giving up on the Wraiths, if deceived to enemy's doorstep they pose a big enough threat that they will be soaking up fire that may save the monolith and lychguard and they do reasonably well against hordes if need be. And Nephrekh they dart 18" in a straight line and charge with a stratagem if need be.
Just keep in mind the wraiths cant charge the first turn after grand illusion. Even with the strategem.
I'd definitely be curious to see how the list would do. I just think that 381 points for the monolith to do its single trick is a steep price to pay.... I'd probably use the enhanced invasion beams to bring something else nasty with the lychguard. You'd need to reconfigure the list though.
Also, it's a one trick pony. It only works if you go first. Anytime you go second against someone that's seen this before will just get close enough to prevent you from disembarking from the Monolith.
Also also, Flayed Ones will probably do this better than Lychguard.
Well I plan to bring the Wraiths (and the CTan up too), so he's going to have to choose.
Also this was sword and board Lychguard, not too scary damageoutputwise.
Kutlakh may make it up as an optional 3rd redeployed dude.
Having 6 wraiths up there with them, he'd probably go for them instead, possibly leaving the C'Tan naked, and also the wraiths are 18 wounds T5/3++ and Lychguard are 20 wounds T5/3++ (wtih stratagem)
It would be unfortunate to go up against Null Zone though.
You could always just plan on the deceiver only getting the monolith through. Then you'd setup an extra unit in Tombworld deployment, that way you can use the enhanced invasion beams to bring in two units for 1 CP.
You might want to consider breaking the Flayed Ones into slightly smaller groups of 15, and either leave a 10 man one in reserve or buy Deathmarks for reactionary measures, or Scarabs as you make mention of earlier.
punisher357 wrote: You could always just plan on the deceiver only getting the monolith through. Then you'd setup an extra unit in Tombworld deployment, that way you can use the enhanced invasion beams to bring in two units for 1 CP.
Not on turn 1, so it's not really relevant to this strategy.
punisher357 wrote: You could always just plan on the deceiver only getting the monolith through. Then you'd setup an extra unit in Tombworld deployment, that way you can use the enhanced invasion beams to bring in two units for 1 CP.
Not on turn 1, so it's not really relevant to this strategy.
doh'
already forgot about that...since they're going into reserves that wouldn't work....
So we can use Deceiver to redeploy Vault, himself and maybe someone else before turn 1. With 4++ and without deepstrike heavy coming/shooting Vault potentially can survive and do some damage unless we're playing Tau / AdMech.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So we can use Deceiver to redeploy Vault, himself and maybe someone else before turn 1. With 4++ and without deepstrike heavy coming/shooting Vault potentially can survive and do some damage unless we're playing Tau / AdMech.
So Vault, TB, Destroyers, Deceiver?
The Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb list has been posted a bunch of times throughout this list... don't know if anyone has actually tried running it, though.
In regards to making lists, as I'd stated on a previous page, I tend to err on the side of caution, so build them with the assumption that I'm A) not going first, and B) never going to have any units benefit from RP. That way if things go wrong I'm prepared for the worst (and if things *don't* got wrong it's a pleasant surprise).
The update that prevents first turn reserves showing up behind enemy lines has thrown my plans slightly out of whack, but not to the degree that I've had to scrap every list I'd previously written because they'd been rendered unplayable.
Destroyers and Deathmarks showing up in turn 2 can still wreak havock where needed, especially if it's to mop up following a turn 1 DDA/TB barrage.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So we can use Deceiver to redeploy Vault, himself and maybe someone else before turn 1. With 4++ and without deepstrike heavy coming/shooting Vault potentially can survive and do some damage unless we're playing Tau / AdMech.
So Vault, TB, Destroyers, Deceiver?
The Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb list has been posted a bunch of times throughout this list... don't know if anyone has actually tried running it, though.
As soon as my third vault is built ill be trying out some variation of this list. Mighy swap the second cryptek for more scarabs or a 5 man immortal squad.
So if our Fast Attack slot is once again our best category, it would pay to have something from it in every list.
Just to experiment I wanted to see what a list that included a little of each looked like.
Started looking pretty decent, even if I did get carried away with the Tomb Blades (wanted to include a unit of each and just thought, screw it, they're good, max size!)
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP [87 PL, 1613pts] ++
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 126pts]: Phylactery, Voidblade
skoffs wrote: So if our Fast Attack slot is once again our best category, it would pay to have something from it in every list.
Just to experiment I wanted to see what a list that included a little of each looked like.
Started looking pretty decent, even if I did get carried away with the Tomb Blades (wanted to include a unit of each and just thought, screw it, they're good, max size!)
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP [87 PL, 1613pts] ++
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 126pts]: Phylactery, Voidblade
It's currently over by 20 points but I haven't really tried optimizing the HQ seriously yet, nor have I picked a Dynasty.
The only thing preventing me from giving this some practical experimentation is the fact that I don't have 27 Tomb Blades at my disposal.
I would drop the D Lord for a Cloaktek. it will help your Tomb Blades, Destroyers and Canoptek units out more. I would also swap that 9 man unit of PB tomb Blades for a DDA just for reliable vehicle killing power.
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 271pts] . Tomb Blade . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++
I would drop the D lord completely for a 2nd lord so for the Battalion if you want extra points to flesh things out like Extra scarabs, Immortals, upgrades on Tbs etc.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So we can use Deceiver to redeploy Vault, himself and maybe someone else before turn 1. With 4++ and without deepstrike heavy coming/shooting Vault potentially can survive and do some damage unless we're playing Tau / AdMech.
So Vault, TB, Destroyers, Deceiver?
The Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb list has been posted a bunch of times throughout this list... don't know if anyone has actually tried running it, though.
As soon as my third vault is built ill be trying out some variation of this list. Mighy swap the second cryptek for more scarabs or a 5 man immortal squad.
skoffs wrote: So if our Fast Attack slot is once again our best category, it would pay to have something from it in every list.
Just to experiment I wanted to see what a list that included a little of each looked like.
Started looking pretty decent, even if I did get carried away with the Tomb Blades (wanted to include a unit of each and just thought, screw it, they're good, max size!)
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP [87 PL, 1613pts] ++
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 126pts]: Phylactery, Voidblade
It's currently over by 20 points but I haven't really tried optimizing the HQ seriously yet, nor have I picked a Dynasty.
The only thing preventing me from giving this some practical experimentation is the fact that I don't have 27 Tomb Blades at my disposal.
Not taking DDAs feels like a mistake to me. I don't think you have the tools to deal with a tank heavy army without them. Destroyers are too easy to wipe out and remove RP on their own. I like tomb blades, but I don't feel they need to be spammed to this extent, you are missing too many other good options.
My games so far have really relied on the DDA for long range damage, they are one of the few items I would rank as a must include to any Necron Army.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So we can use Deceiver to redeploy Vault, himself and maybe someone else before turn 1. With 4++ and without deepstrike heavy coming/shooting Vault potentially can survive and do some damage unless we're playing Tau / AdMech.
So Vault, TB, Destroyers, Deceiver?
The Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb list has been posted a bunch of times throughout this list... don't know if anyone has actually tried running it, though.
As soon as my third vault is built ill be trying out some variation of this list. Mighy swap the second cryptek for more scarabs or a 5 man immortal squad.
What do you whant teleport with VoD? They works only on infrantry so you can choose only cryptek. Mayby take another artifact.
The teleport is for the second cryptek. Lets me reposition the medics as well as puts the abyssal staff in range so the methodical destruction strat can be triggered easily making the shooting from.the vaults better.
skoffs wrote: So if our Fast Attack slot is once again our best category, it would pay to have something from it in every list.
Just to experiment I wanted to see what a list that included a little of each looked like.
Started looking pretty decent, even if I did get carried away with the Tomb Blades (wanted to include a unit of each and just thought, screw it, they're good, max size!)
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP [87 PL, 1613pts] ++
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 126pts]: Phylactery, Voidblade
It's currently over by 20 points but I haven't really tried optimizing the HQ seriously yet, nor have I picked a Dynasty.
The only thing preventing me from giving this some practical experimentation is the fact that I don't have 27 Tomb Blades at my disposal.
Not taking DDAs feels like a mistake to me. I don't think you have the tools to deal with a tank heavy army without them. Destroyers are too easy to wipe out and remove RP on their own. I like tomb blades, but I don't feel they need to be spammed to this extent, you are missing too many other good options.
My games so far have really relied on the DDA for long range damage, they are one of the few items I would rank as a must include to any Necron Army.
With DS nerf DDAs are even better. With long range give you one more round of shooting before alpha strike. Sad that you can take only 3 of them in new tournaments lists.
skoffs wrote: So if our Fast Attack slot is once again our best category, it would pay to have something from it in every list.
Just to experiment I wanted to see what a list that included a little of each looked like.
Started looking pretty decent, even if I did get carried away with the Tomb Blades (wanted to include a unit of each and just thought, screw it, they're good, max size!)
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP [87 PL, 1613pts] ++
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 126pts]: Phylactery, Voidblade
It's currently over by 20 points but I haven't really tried optimizing the HQ seriously yet, nor have I picked a Dynasty.
The only thing preventing me from giving this some practical experimentation is the fact that I don't have 27 Tomb Blades at my disposal.
Not taking DDAs feels like a mistake to me. I don't think you have the tools to deal with a tank heavy army without them. Destroyers are too easy to wipe out and remove RP on their own. I like tomb blades, but I don't feel they need to be spammed to this extent, you are missing too many other good options.
My games so far have really relied on the DDA for long range damage, they are one of the few items I would rank as a must include to any Necron Army.
Oh, yeah, for sure. If I was making a serious list obviously there's a lot I would do differently. This was more an experiment that started almost looking like it might not actually be too bad as it was.
-10 CP is very nice (an average of 14 with the Warlord Trait) and this list has a lot of good uses for CP.
-Scoring objectives- Nephrek MSU Scarabs and Tomb blades are great for scoring, the Dlord helps too. Along with the option to Deep Strike the Destroyers and Tomb Sentinel, and Veil a unit of Immortals, I've been able to get all over the board.
-Screening- The Nephrek MSU are great for pushing back Deep Strkies.
-Beta Strike- Destroyers + Tomb Sentinel + Veiled MWBD Gauss Immortals all landing together on T2 have a lot of punch.
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
-Tesla Horde clearing- At 24" the Gauss Immortals can reliably put a wound on a horde unit, triggering Methodical Destruction for 2 units of MWBD Tesla Immortals. 40 shots with Tesla triggering on 4+ is nasty.
-Tomb sentinel- I only put this thing in a list initially because I had the model but I've found it very useful. With the Sautek Code it hits on 3's with it's Exile Cannon and is effectively a 3rd DDA. Sautek also allows it to shoot the cannon after advancing and then charge for 1CP which is nice. It's been a great distraction unit showing up in the enemies backfield, and on one occasion the Gloom Prism saved my bacon. For a non forge world alternative I'd try a Triarch Stalker or 3x Heavy Destroyers.
-Immortals- Actually seem to be a really solid troop choice. Previously I only really used them as Nephrek MSU objective grabbers, but 30 of them can put out a lot of firepower and be very durable.
-Imotekh- I wasn't convinced he was worth it till I gave him a try. On paper he doesn't bring much over 2 Overlords but his storm ability reliably triggering Methodical Destruction is incredibly useful. His shooting attack being 18" has been good for the same reason. When things get messy in the late game he has been able to wade into melee and at the very least not die.
-It's been great fun to play with! Variety is always more fun and this list has a good mix of units. The amount of command points is really great when you have access to all the good stratagems: Methodical Destruction, Destroyer Strat, Deep Strike, Quantum Sheilding strat, Canoptek advance + charge and the resurrect strat on the Dlord. The basic reroll strat for 1 CP has also been very handy with the various D6 shot weapons.
Edit:
Spoiler:
Look how easy to read that list is! The Battlescribe copy pastes make my eyes bleed.
-10 CP is very nice (an average of 14 with the Warlord Trait) and this list has a lot of good uses for CP.
-Scoring objectives- Nephrek MSU Scarabs and Tomb blades are great for scoring, the Dlord helps too. Along with the option to Deep Strike the Destroyers and Tomb Sentinel, and Veil a unit of Immortals, I've been able to get all over the board.
-Screening- The Nephrek MSU are great for pushing back Deep Strkies.
-Beta Strike- Destroyers + Tomb Sentinel + Veiled MWBD Gauss Immortals all landing together on T2 have a lot of punch.
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
-Tesla Horde clearing- At 24" the Gauss Immortals can reliably put a wound on a horde unit, triggering Methodical Destruction for 2 units of MWBD Tesla Immortals. 40 shots with Tesla triggering on 4+ is nasty.
-Tomb sentinel- I only put this thing in a list initially because I had the model but I've found it very useful. With the Sautek Code it hits on 3's with it's Exile Cannon and is effectively a 3rd DDA. Sautek also allows it to shoot the cannon after advancing and then charge for 1CP which is nice. It's been a great distraction unit showing up in the enemies backfield, and on one occasion the Gloom Prism saved my bacon. For a non forge world alternative I'd try a Triarch Stalker or 3x Heavy Destroyers.
-Immortals- Actually seem to be a really solid troop choice. Previously I only really used them as Nephrek MSU objective grabbers, but 30 of them can put out a lot of firepower and be very durable.
-Imotekh- I wasn't convinced he was worth it till I gave him a try. On paper he doesn't bring much over 2 Overlords but his storm ability reliably triggering Methodical Destruction is incredibly useful. His shooting attack being 18" has been good for the same reason. When things get messy in the late game he has been able to wade into melee and at the very least not die.
-It's been great fun to play with! Variety is always more fun and this list has a good mix of units. The amount of command points is really great when you have access to all the good stratagems: Methodical Destruction, Destroyer Strat, Deep Strike, Quantum Sheilding strat, Canoptek advance + charge and the resurrect strat on the Dlord. The basic reroll strat for 1 CP has also been very handy with the various D6 shot weapons.
Edit:
Spoiler:
Look how easy to read that list is! The Battlescribe copy pastes make my eyes bleed.
How do the DDAs hit on 2's? Immotehk can't give them MWBD or anything... but I'd love to have DDAs hitting on 2s.
Methodical Destruction: 2 CP (Sautekh) If a Sautekh unit causes an usnaved wound, add +1 to hit for friendly Sautekh that target the same unit this phase
Been with being to move and shoot on 2+ seems really good assuming you cause an unsaved wound first
Imotekh uses his lord of the storm ability to put D6 mortal wounds on something. These wounds can be used to trigger the methodical destruction stratagem for 2 CP which makes the DDAs hit on 2+.
This combo will reliably blow away a land raider from 48" away.
Before the FAQ the Tomb Sentinel could land on turn 1 and join in the fun. But it's a good trick for any list with Imotekh and 2-3 DDAs.
The "problem" with the Methodical Destruction stratagem is that you need one unit to cause a wound before you can play it, then you really want to be shooting at least 2 more units to make it worth the 2 CP. Often focus firing with 3 units is enough firepower by itself. With something like Imotekhs Lord of the Storm power or the Abyssal staffs mortal wounds you can reliably trigger the stratagem without over investing. I also mentioned using Gauss Immortals (who don't do much at 24") to set up 2x10 Tesla Immortals for the strat- this was very useful against 30 Tzangors.
I found usefull blob of 20 sautekh warriors - for screening immortals and triggering Methodical destruction for them. While scarabs die to some random shooting, opponent have to commit a lot to destroy whole blob of warriors. Most of time they fail and \ or use massive force doing so, which you can counterattack.
torblind wrote: Interesting. What about making the Tomb blades Sautekh to easier open up Methodical destruction for the immortals?
I've gone back and forth on that. The tomb blades also really like benefitting from the strat to get tesla triggering on 5+. Ultimately I decided that their roll in the list was grabbing objectives and denying deep strikes and the 20" move from Nephrek was more beneficial. Either would work well though. I think I'll try running them as Sautekh in my next game.
Any of you guys have any thoughts about the tomb sentinels or tomb stalkers from FW? Are they any good? I love the model, but if the rules aren't up to par, I probably won't pick one up.
iGuy91 wrote: Any of you guys have any thoughts about the tomb sentinels or tomb stalkers from FW? Are they any good? I love the model, but if the rules aren't up to par, I probably won't pick one up.
I mentioned using the Sentinel in my list above. I was pleasantly surprised with it's performance and have now brought it in my last 4 games. It really benefits from being Sautekh to hit on 3's when it deep strikes and to be able to advance and hit on 4's. The 1 CP stratagem that allows it to advance and charge is nice too so it can move 10 +D6", shoots D6 S10 shots hitting on 4's then charge 2D6". It has been a pain in the arse for all my opponents when it shows up in their backfield.
iGuy91 wrote: Any of you guys have any thoughts about the tomb sentinels or tomb stalkers from FW? Are they any good? I love the model, but if the rules aren't up to par, I probably won't pick one up.
They are nice for jumping on AM gun lines, if you can fit them within 9". First shoot, then charge. Then keep charging them as they move out of combat. Prevents them from shooting. They will get shot down, so might want to run them in pairs or triplicates.
Was lookimg at it earlier, the str 10 shots in Sautekh really seemed appealing, though no invun or sheild, or fly makes me prefer 3 doomsday arks over running any of these :(
Well if you can pop up, damage one tank, charge it to perhaps finish it off, consolidate into another tank, it is singelhandedly incapacitating two tanks, no DDA I'd going to do that. If it survives it can even rinse and repeat
True, but at the same time, a doomsday ark could blow a tank up turn 1 and then turn 2. which is a better verdict than 1 tank dead and one incapacitated.
moonsmite wrote: True, but at the same time, a doomsday ark could blow a tank up turn 1 and then turn 2. which is a better verdict than 1 tank dead and one incapacitated.
DDAs aren't quite that good lol. They don't one shot a tank every turn. I would agree they are better than the Sentinel though. That doesn't necessarily mean you always take a DDA instead. You only get 3 DDAs for a start, but while a Sentinel can shoot like a DDA it's also a fast moving monster that Deep Strikes and can DtW, which a DDA can't replicate.
In my list up the page I'd rather stick with the Sentinel than take a 3rd DDA. It comeS in with the Destroyers and offers them some protection. Firstly by being a good target for the same weapons that would target the destroyers, and secondly by being a mild CC threat. Beyond that it's just really flexible as it operates well in every phase: It moves fast, denies psychic powers, shoots decently and fights decently.
moonsmite wrote: True, but at the same time, a doomsday ark could blow a tank up turn 1 and then turn 2. which is a better verdict than 1 tank dead and one incapacitated.
DDAs aren't quite that good lol. They don't one shot a tank every turn. I would agree they are better than the Sentinel though. That doesn't necessarily mean you always take a DDA instead. You only get 3 DDAs for a start, but while a Sentinel can shoot like a DDA it's also a fast moving monster that Deep Strikes and can DtW, which a DDA can't replicate.
In my list up the page I'd rather stick with the Sentinel than take a 3rd DDA. It comeS in with the Destroyers and offers them some protection. Firstly by being a good target for the same weapons that would target the destroyers, and secondly by being a mild CC threat. Beyond that it's just really flexible as it operates well in every phase: It moves fast, denies psychic powers, shoots decently and fights decently.
Yea I can understand that its not 100% but when replying to best case scenario for the sentinels, then i used the best case for the DDA and it comes out superior.
I think if it had the ability to leave combat and shoot or better survivability, i would look at it. But as it stands, would rather have 3 DDA and rest of the army to support them (like my list in my sig)
Not taking DDAs feels like a mistake to me. I don't think you have the tools to deal with a tank heavy army without them. Destroyers are too easy to wipe out and remove RP on their own. I like tomb blades, but I don't feel they need to be spammed to this extent, you are missing too many other good options.
My games so far have really relied on the DDA for long range damage, they are one of the few items I would rank as a must include to any Necron Army.
I 100% agree. I'm not saying you need 3 in every list, especially for casual gaming, but they are an excellent tool to have in your bag. The adjustments to the firing profile make them useful even if you need to move them around the board, but for at least the first turn and possible the second they'll be lobbing high strength high damage shots into priority targets from a long distance with reliable results.
When I make lists without them it just feels like I'm going to struggle against multi-wound monsters/vehicles. They're one of our best solutions to big problems like that.
Immortals x9 - Tesla
Immortals x9 - Gauss
Warriors x10
Destroyers x6
Novokh Outrider DLord - Warscythe (sometimes 1CP to give Sempiternal Weave)
Wraiths x6
Scarabs x5
Scarabs x5
Sautekh SHAD Tesseract Vault
It lacks a bit of shooting and bodies in lieu of having two powerful Elite units + Vault, but I think the balance and threat level allows it to work. Could drop the Wraiths and instead throw in a DDArk and more screening from extra Scarabs/Troops, but the Wraiths always give people pause and can really counter-assault anything that tries to threaten the Vault or Destroyers.
That looks like a solid list. Definitely one of my favorites I've seen so far. I don't have the Tomb sentinel model though. I'd have to switch that out for something else. How much does the tomb sentinel with a gloom prism cost?
That looks like a solid list. Definitely one of my favorites I've seen so far. I don't have the Tomb sentinel model though. I'd have to switch that out for something else.
Thanks. It's pretty much a straight swap for another DDA or a Triarch Stalker instead of the Sentinel. Or you could just add a sixth Destroyer and bulk out the Scarabs and Tomb Blades.
That looks like a solid list. Definitely one of my favorites I've seen so far. I don't have the Tomb sentinel model though. I'd have to switch that out for something else.
Thanks. It's pretty much a straight swap for another DDA or a Triarch Stalker instead of the Sentinel. Or you could just add a sixth Destroyer and bulk out the Scarabs and Tomb Blades.
I would probably go for the DDA. I just don't see a really great role for the Triarch stalker....especially since it doesn't benefit from Dynasty codes....if it benefited from the Sautekh code I think it would be awesome!
So here's my attempt at a Maynerkh list, I really like that Kutlakh has the 24" diameter bubble of advance+charge and wanted to play to that with some aggressive crons. The idea is having the scarabs, wraiths, and Lychguard with Kutlakh advancing up to tie up gunlines hopefully wreck face with immortals and warriors going to grab objective while they and and the destroyers pop off shots to remove units that aren't tied up. Easy to say but harder to do. Translocation beams means being able to hide behind LoS blocking terrain and then directly moving through it and/or screens as we to get at juicer targets while Kutlakh's bubble is large enough that its should be easy enough to keep the canoptek units in it. I figure with the two wraiths and scarab unit it presents a choice hard choice of what to shoot at so that giving the Lychguard abit of more survivability despite not having a Inv save as it is 20 wounds to chew through though that not a guaranteed thing.
Its not a optimized list, but it is made for a friendlier meta that encourages enjoyable games. I would however like some feedback on how it could be optimized and made competitive for the local tournaments while sticking to the spirit of the list if possible.
Ir0njack wrote: So here's my attempt at a Maynerkh list, I really like that Kutlakh has the 24" diameter bubble of advance+charge and wanted to play to that with some aggressive crons. The idea is having the scarabs, wraiths, and Lychguard with Kutlakh advancing up to tie up gunlines hopefully wreck face with immortals and warriors going to grab objective while they and and the destroyers pop off shots to remove units that aren't tied up. Easy to say but harder to do. Translocation beams means being able to hide behind LoS blocking terrain and then directly moving through it and/or screens as we to get at juicer targets while Kutlakh's bubble is large enough that its should be easy enough to keep the canoptek units in it. I figure with the two wraiths and scarab unit it presents a choice hard choice of what to shoot at so that giving the Lychguard abit of more survivability despite not having a Inv save as it is 20 wounds to chew through though that not a guaranteed thing.
Its not a optimized list, but it is made for a friendlier meta that encourages enjoyable games. I would however like some feedback on how it could be optimized and made competitive for the local tournaments while sticking to the spirit of the list if possible.
Cool list! I've been messing around with ideas for Kutlakh. Just a reminder though, Kutlakh's bubble only applies to infantry, so your canoptek units will still have to use the stratagem to charge after advancing.
Link is in the spoiler. Looking forward to seeing what you guys think.
Cool, will watch when kids sleep
Something else: How do you build an army around the Vault, in my case for friendly games. And also one dynasty for entire army.
Deceiver seems nice to be able to bring all powers to bare from turn 1.
* Nihilakh lets you give it 3++ for the first turn it's up there. And your backline DDAs would like that.
* Sautekh means it can get that sweet +1 on all those teslas. And cloaktek could buzz around it to shoot mortal wounds with the staff and help heal the Vault
* Mephrit, novokh - no obvious synergy
* Nephrekh could deep strike it up turn two.. not 100% sold on that. Could dart around +6" in movement phase at expense of tesla, not entirely sold on that either. Could deep strike Spyder for healing, probably not worth it, could deep strike Wraiths nearby to take some of the heat of it
In the backline you'd probably need DDA to delivery the AP that it cannot. That too would favor nihilakh or sautekh.
Link is in the spoiler. Looking forward to seeing what you guys think.
Cool, will watch when kids sleep
Something else: How do you build an army around the Vault, in my case for friendly games. And also one dynasty for entire army.
Deceiver seems nice to be able to bring all powers to bare from turn 1.
* Nihilakh lets you give it 3++ for the first turn it's up there. And your backline DDAs would like that.
* Sautekh means it can get that sweet +1 on all those teslas. And cloaktek could buzz around it to shoot mortal wounds with the staff and help heal the Vault
* Mephrit, novokh - no obvious synergy
* Nephrekh could deep strike it up turn two.. not 100% sold on that. Could dart around +6" in movement phase at expense of tesla, not entirely sold on that either. Could deep strike Spyder for healing, probably not worth it, could deep strike Wraiths nearby to take some of the heat of it
In the backline you'd probably need DDA to delivery the AP that it cannot. That too would favor nihilakh or sautekh.
Nephrekh only works on swarms and infantry
The Nihilakh trait is nice, but if you use it pop it straight away, I was in two minds in a game that I played and activated it too late thinking I could survive the damage, a few unlucky dice rolls cost me the model (I still won at least)
From facebook, they additionally mentioned it was made in co-operation with the rules team so its as official as we have atm, baring an actual update of the faq.
Yeah, that's the thing. Deathmarks aren't on the table, so technically they still suffer from the same restriction.
I mean, in practice you wouldn't really want to drop them that deep in enemy lines anyway because they'll get nuked, but its still a curious interaction.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, that's the thing. Deathmarks aren't on the table, so technically they still suffer from the same restriction.
I mean, in practice you wouldn't really want to drop them that deep in enemy lines anyway because they'll get nuked, but its still a curious interaction.
Sure but that's not the crux of it.
The new restriction specifies "player's first turn"
If he drops in things on his deployment zone, it isn't my first turn any more. Had they wanted that, the only meaningful wording would have been "the first turn"
The same with monoliths or night scythes getting gunned down, it's no longer your first turn, it's his first turn (presuming you went first), so emergency beam in reinforcements.
You could even argue that of you go second, it's not your first turn of you beam in deathmarks in his first turn.
I couldn't bare to take the fight, but those are the words of the rule.
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punisher357 wrote: So what's the consensus on the Tesseract Ark now? Is it too limited? Too high costed? Or is it simply that the DDA just beats it out too easily
Mix and match, the T Ark offers valuable alternative weapons profiles. Have it roam around ik front of the DDArks to weather the charges with it's awesome flamer and awesome anti charging rule.
The wording actually states during a player's first turn, not during the player's first turn. I actually interpret this as meaning either player's first turn. I don't think it's the intention, but i wouldn't play my Deathmarks outside my deployment zone until the second battle round. I will, however, be giving some feedback to GW to have this clarified if and when these rules become official.
Tesseract Ark is the same as it's always been, it just has competition now with the Doomsday Ark.
Had another post-codex game yesterday and boy howdy do destroyers impress. They solo'd a freaking Leviathan Dreadnought the turn they came down, immediately making their points back. I'd be hard pressed to make any lists that didn't include a unit of Destroyers, Extermination Protocols is just too good.
EnTyme wrote: The wording actually states during a player's first turn, not during the player's first turn. I actually interpret this as meaning either player's first turn. I don't think it's the intention, but i wouldn't play my Deathmarks outside my deployment zone until the second battle round. I will, however, be giving some feedback to GW to have this clarified if and when these rules become official.
It's unclear for sure, but a sensible person (yes yes, were talking GW rule writers I know), would then call it "the first turn", not "a player's first turn", thats additional specification effectively limiting it to the controlling player.
Clarification is obviously needed, but that wording allows us to use tomb world to bring units up with our fliers, and it allows deathmarks to work as designed. (they're not that dangerous, I too likely wouldn't waste them going after near his deployment zone)
There is a difference between "round" and "turn" in 40k. The game is divided into set number of battle rounds, usually 5 in most missions. A round is then divided into two turns, one for each player.
With new 5CP for battalion it's just too good to miss.
When i played last times opponents struggled to remove blob of 20 warriors unless they did dedicated shooting only them.
But it was veeery easy to kill 10 immortals to prevent reanimation. 240 pts for 20 warriors is a lot but they can cover much more ground and survive better than 10 immortals.
Did anyone have luck with CCB sniper? I'm really tempting to do this but do not know how good is it.
EnTyme wrote: There is a difference between "round" and "turn" in 40k. The game is divided into set number of battle rounds, usually 5 in most missions. A round is then divided into two turns, one for each player.
Well, referring to it as "a player's first turn", and wanting it to mean the first battle round, arguably is beyond a slip of tongue. even for GW writers.
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ArtyomTrityak wrote: With new 5CP for battalion it's just too good to miss.
When i played last times opponents struggled to remove blob of 20 warriors unless they did dedicated shooting only them.
But it was veeery easy to kill 10 immortals to prevent reanimation. 240 pts for 20 warriors is a lot but they can cover much more ground and survive better than 10 immortals.
Did anyone have luck with CCB sniper? I'm really tempting to do this but do not know how good is it.
20 Warriors certainly has those aspects going for it.
I haven't tried the snipe barge, but I'd like to give it a go soon.
EnTyme wrote: The wording actually states during a player's first turn, not during the player's first turn. I actually interpret this as meaning either player's first turn. I don't think it's the intention, but i wouldn't play my Deathmarks outside my deployment zone until the second battle round. I will, however, be giving some feedback to GW to have this clarified if and when these rules become official.
It's unclear for sure, but a sensible person (yes yes, were talking GW rule writers I know), would then call it "the first turn", not "a player's first turn", thats additional specification effectively limiting it to the controlling player.
Clarification is obviously needed, but that wording allows us to use tomb world to bring units up with our fliers, and it allows deathmarks to work as designed. (they're not that dangerous, I too likely wouldn't waste them going after near his deployment zone)
Player A goes first in the first Battle Round. Is that a player's first turn? Yes, it's Player A's first turn.
Player B goes second in the first Battle Round. Is that a player's first turn? Yes, it's Player B's first turn.
Also from Facebook:
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:If it's possible for the Deathmarks to fulfill all the requirements of the rules (close enough to the set up enemy, in their own deployment zone, more that 9 from enemy etc...) then they can [... use Ethereal Interception]. Otherwise - they can't.
EnTyme wrote: There is a difference between "round" and "turn" in 40k. The game is divided into set number of battle rounds, usually 5 in most missions. A round is then divided into two turns, one for each player.
Well, referring to it as "a player's first turn", and wanting it to mean the first battle round, arguably is beyond a slip of tongue. even for GW writers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ArtyomTrityak wrote: With new 5CP for battalion it's just too good to miss.
When i played last times opponents struggled to remove blob of 20 warriors unless they did dedicated shooting only them.
But it was veeery easy to kill 10 immortals to prevent reanimation. 240 pts for 20 warriors is a lot but they can cover much more ground and survive better than 10 immortals.
Did anyone have luck with CCB sniper? I'm really tempting to do this but do not know how good is it.
20 Warriors certainly has those aspects going for it.
I haven't tried the snipe barge, but I'd like to give it a go soon.
I've used sniper barge and it is amazing, though if your opponent realises it's potential be prepared for a lot of assassination attempts
It's just a ccb with mephrit dynasty codes.... the mephrit warlord trait lets you snipe... you could use the voltaic staff too which is 12 inch range assault 3 str 6 ap-3 2dmg
It's just a ccb with mephrit dynasty codes.... the mephrit warlord trait lets you snipe... you could use the voltaic staff too which is 12 inch range assault 3 str 6 ap-3 2dmg
Isn't it amazing how much synergy actually exists in this codex compared to the vanilla SM codex?
It's just a ccb with mephrit dynasty codes.... the mephrit warlord trait lets you snipe... you could use the voltaic staff too which is 12 inch range assault 3 str 6 ap-3 2dmg
Isn't it amazing how much synergy actually exists in this codex compared to the vanilla SM codex?
Also further down in the comments they clearly state that death marks are locked to your deployment zone. I stupidly did not screen shot that one so take that as you will.
Edit: locked to your deployment zone until turn 2.
Also further down in the comments they clearly state that death marks are locked to your deployment zone. I stupidly did not screen shot that one so take that as you will.
Edit: locked to your deployment zone until turn 2.
Yeah... a unit that is already deployed can use abilities, relics, etc. To redeploy according to the ability/relic.... if the unit starts off the board like deathmarks then you're restricted to your own deployment zone for turn 1
It's just a ccb with mephrit dynasty codes.... the mephrit warlord trait lets you snipe... you could use the voltaic staff too which is 12 inch range assault 3 str 6 ap-3 2dmg
Isn't it amazing how much synergy actually exists in this codex compared to the vanilla SM codex?
I do think you'd be missing out on taking the lighting field, which is a must take for a CCB in my opinion.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, that's the thing. Deathmarks aren't on the table, so technically they still suffer from the same restriction.
I mean, in practice you wouldn't really want to drop them that deep in enemy lines anyway because they'll get nuked, but its still a curious interaction.
Regarding the Ethereal Interception rule from the deathmarks it doesnt really matter if you can or can not deepstrike in enemys first turn in HIS deployment zone, because... there wont be much turn 1 deepstrike reserves for the own deployment zone? And turn 2+ it doenst matter anyway.
Mephrit warlord trait adds 6" to all assault weapons (Staff of Light, Voltaic Staff, Tesla Cannon on CCB) and allows your warlord to shoot assault weapons at characters. Staff choices would have a range of 18" while the Tesla Cannon goes out to 30".
It's just a ccb with mephrit dynasty codes.... the mephrit warlord trait lets you snipe... you could use the voltaic staff too which is 12 inch range assault 3 str 6 ap-3 2dmg
Isn't it amazing how much synergy actually exists in this codex compared to the vanilla SM codex?
I do think you'd be missing out on taking the lighting field, which is a must take for a CCB in my opinion.
Remember he has +6" range on his assault weapons, that stuff is now 18", S6 -3 D2 that can shoot characters with extra wounds on 6+.
Perfect for AM characters which is where this strategy excells, all those small cheap officers with their orders and T3.
Then there is the underslung Tesla cannon that also shoots characters, now 30” and also S6 so wounding on 2 against T3
ArtyomTrityak wrote: With new 5CP for battalion it's just too good to miss.
When i played last times opponents struggled to remove blob of 20 warriors unless they did dedicated shooting only them.
But it was veeery easy to kill 10 immortals to prevent reanimation. 240 pts for 20 warriors is a lot but they can cover much more ground and survive better than 10 immortals.
Did anyone have luck with CCB sniper? I'm really tempting to do this but do not know how good is it.
When our index was out and was weak I was playing a wolf/guard soup. I would put all three objectives in my half and run a line of 30 conscripts with a commisar from one objective through all three the commisar would stand behind another 3" to stop them running in this fashion to charge my long fangs / press etc they had to go through scoring troops then a commisar then my big hitters. Anyone tried doing it with warriors? I know it's 175pts vs the warriors 240 but that would be a hard unit to remove to stop my 3 dda's getting charged and also 3 objectives I don't need to worry about.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: With new 5CP for battalion it's just too good to miss.
When i played last times opponents struggled to remove blob of 20 warriors unless they did dedicated shooting only them.
But it was veeery easy to kill 10 immortals to prevent reanimation. 240 pts for 20 warriors is a lot but they can cover much more ground and survive better than 10 immortals.
Did anyone have luck with CCB sniper? I'm really tempting to do this but do not know how good is it.
When our index was out and was weak I was playing a wolf/guard soup. I would put all three objectives in my half and run a line of 30 conscripts with a commisar from one objective through all three the commisar would stand behind another 3" to stop them running in this fashion to charge my long fangs / press etc they had to go through scoring troops then a commisar then my big hitters. Anyone tried doing it with warriors? I know it's 175pts vs the warriors 240 but that would be a hard unit to remove to stop my 3 dda's getting charged and also 3 objectives I don't need to worry about.
I think most decent gun lines can squat at least one blob a turn
Heeya folks, I'd like to get some feedback regarding my list for an upcoming Escalation League.
The league will just use Maelstorm missions, no tourney rules. They will use everything from the latest FAQ, apart from the beta rules.
One houserule for the league: If models are added to your army, they stay there for the rest of the league. You can change their equipment or put them in different unit sizes. You just can't remove them.
I'm aware that the list isn't highly competitive, but it involves two of my favourite things in a Necron army: Rolling for lots of RP and upgrading units with Szeras.
Let me know what you think!
Using the Mephrit Dynasty for the entire league.
500p:
Spoiler:
HQ: Illuminor Szeras, Warlord
Troops: 15x Warriors 10x Immortals /w Tesla
Thoughts: The bread&butter of the list, it involves around the enemy not having enough firepower to cut through the 15 Warriors since its only 500 points. Especially when upgraded by Szeras these Warriors and Immortals should out-perform most units they will encounter.
The big problem with this list is mobility and getting on objectives. I cóuld opt to reduce the unit of Warriors to 12 models and take a unit of Scarabs. But I fear a unit of 12 will get taken down in one turn, which will most likely result in me getting tabled. On top of that; the bigger the Warrior unit, the more they benefit from Szeras' upgrade.
750p:
Spoiler:
HQ: Illuminor Szeras, Warlord
Overlord /w Warscythe, Relic; Veil of Darkness Troops: 18x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Thoughts: Adding 3 models to the big blob and a new unit of 10 Warriors. Along with the Overlord, this turns the patrol into a battalion.
The idea behind a big unit of Warriors and a smaller one is so that the big unit of Warriors can take the hit or get tied op in combat, only to fall back so that the smaller unit can blast away the enemy assault units. A big unit of Warriors, again upgraded by Szeras, is also a lovely unit that can go for a ride with the Overlord's Veil.
Again, I could opt and have the big unit stay at 15 models for a unit of Scarabs, but at 750 points I feel like 15 Warriors will die too easily.
Troops: 20x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Fast Attack: 3x Scarabs Heavy Support: DDA
Thoughts: Adding 2 more Warriors to the big blob, maxxing the unit out.
Yeey, finally a unit of Scarabs! I could do another one, but it would mean 3 less Warriors from the big unit. Same argument as before, the amount of points we are gonna be playing at then might mean the lower amount of Warriors get killed in one turn.
Adding a DDA for some much needed anti-tank. Along with Szeras, they should deal with most enemy armour at 1000 points. Mass vehicle spam isn't the meta at my LFGS anyway.
Being Mephrit, the DDA can also offer some decent anti-infantry firepower if needed.
Troops: 20x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elites: C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer. Powers: Sky of the Falling Stars, Anti-Matter Meteor Fast Attack: 3x Scarabs
3x Scarabs
Heavy Support: DDA
Adding the Nightbringer as it fits with the fluff for this army/lore of the overal league.
Also adding another unit of Scarabs who will probably be screening for the Nightbringer.
In short, I have two things that I can't wrap my head around:
-When to add Scarabs and how many.
-How to best split up the amount of Warrior models among the two units. I've described why I go one unit max-size and one unit min-size, but is that the best way to go?
Doctoralex wrote: Heeya folks, I'd like to get some feedback regarding my list for an upcoming Escalation League.
The league will just use Maelstorm missions, no tourney rules. They will use everything from the latest FAQ, apart from the beta rules.
One houserule for the league: If models are added to your army, they stay there for the rest of the league. You can change their equipment or put them in different unit sizes. You just can't remove them.
I'm aware that the list isn't highly competitive, but it involves two of my favourite things in a Necron army: Rolling for lots of RP and upgrading units with Szeras.
Let me know what you think!
Using the Mephrit Dynasty for the entire league.
500p:
Spoiler:
HQ: Illuminor Szeras, Warlord
Troops: 15x Warriors 10x Immortals /w Tesla
Thoughts: The bread&butter of the list, it involves around the enemy not having enough firepower to cut through the 15 Warriors since its only 500 points. Especially when upgraded by Szeras these Warriors and Immortals should out-perform most units they will encounter.
The big problem with this list is mobility and getting on objectives. I cóuld opt to reduce the unit of Warriors to 12 models and take a unit of Scarabs. But I fear a unit of 12 will get taken down in one turn, which will most likely result in me getting tabled. On top of that; the bigger the Warrior unit, the more they benefit from Szeras' upgrade.
750p:
Spoiler:
HQ: Illuminor Szeras, Warlord
Overlord /w Warscythe, Relic; Veil of Darkness Troops: 18x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Thoughts: Adding 3 models to the big blob and a new unit of 10 Warriors. Along with the Overlord, this turns the patrol into a battalion.
The idea behind a big unit of Warriors and a smaller one is so that the big unit of Warriors can take the hit or get tied op in combat, only to fall back so that the smaller unit can blast away the enemy assault units. A big unit of Warriors, again upgraded by Szeras, is also a lovely unit that can go for a ride with the Overlord's Veil.
Again, I could opt and have the big unit stay at 15 models for a unit of Scarabs, but at 750 points I feel like 15 Warriors will die too easily.
Troops: 20x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Fast Attack: 3x Scarabs Heavy Support: DDA
Thoughts: Adding 2 more Warriors to the big blob, maxxing the unit out.
Yeey, finally a unit of Scarabs! I could do another one, but it would mean 3 less Warriors from the big unit. Same argument as before, the amount of points we are gonna be playing at then might mean the lower amount of Warriors get killed in one turn.
Adding a DDA for some much needed anti-tank. Along with Szeras, they should deal with most enemy armour at 1000 points. Mass vehicle spam isn't the meta at my LFGS anyway.
Being Mephrit, the DDA can also offer some decent anti-infantry firepower if needed.
Troops: 20x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elites: C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer. Powers: Sky of the Falling Stars, Anti-Matter Meteor Fast Attack: 3x Scarabs
3x Scarabs
Heavy Support: DDA
Adding the Nightbringer as it fits with the fluff for this army/lore of the overal league.
Also adding another unit of Scarabs who will probably be screening for the Nightbringer.
In short, I have two things that I can't wrap my head around:
-When to add Scarabs and how many.
-How to best split up the amount of Warrior models among the two units. I've described why I go one unit max-size and one unit min-size, but is that the best way to go?
Cheers in advance!
Moste LoW cost ~500 pts. What do you do against them in yours 500 and 750 lists? In 500 you can take gauss immo for more ap. In 750 you can take DDA or nightbringer in patrol. Yours 1000 and 1250 looks good.
I've made a list that tries to use the Sautekh code to the fullest. I'm especially curious about the (veeeery expensive) wraiths.
I think I'm going to try to make more lists who take full effect of their codes and see how they differ.
Spoiler:
Sautekh - Heavy Mobility [73 PL, 1496pts]
Battalion Detachment +5CP
Also further down in the comments they clearly state that death marks are locked to your deployment zone. I stupidly did not screen shot that one so take that as you will.
Edit: locked to your deployment zone until turn 2.
Yeah... a unit that is already deployed can use abilities, relics, etc. To redeploy according to the ability/relic.... if the unit starts off the board like deathmarks then you're restricted to your own deployment zone for turn 1
Hey whar do You think about deathmark used before 1 turn like againt scout would That still work?
It's just a ccb with mephrit dynasty codes.... the mephrit warlord trait lets you snipe... you could use the voltaic staff too which is 12 inch range assault 3 str 6 ap-3 2dmg
Isn't it amazing how much synergy actually exists in this codex compared to the vanilla SM codex?
I do think you'd be missing out on taking the lighting field, which is a must take for a CCB in my opinion.
For a regular CCB, yeah, definitely needs Lightning Field. But for the Character Sniper the Mephrit Staff is pretty necessary to increase his character killing chances.
Also further down in the comments they clearly state that death marks are locked to your deployment zone. I stupidly did not screen shot that one so take that as you will.
Edit: locked to your deployment zone until turn 2.
Yeah... a unit that is already deployed can use abilities, relics, etc. To redeploy according to the ability/relic.... if the unit starts off the board like deathmarks then you're restricted to your own deployment zone for turn 1
Hey whar do You think about deathmark used before 1 turn like againt scout would That still work?
Well, if the Scouts were in or near enough to your deployment zone that you could fit the Deathmarks wholly within your deployment zone AND within 9"-12" of the target unit, then yeah, all requirements would be fulfilled and allow you to do it.
It's not what i mean i said it because it's before the first turn would that not work?
The beta talk about comming during first turn i guess.
For me nothing say you can't come before first turn.
taetrius67 wrote: It's not what i mean i said it because it's before the first turn would that not work?
The beta talk about comming during first turn i guess.
For me nothing say you can't come before first turn.
The first line of ethereal interception excludes units being set up during deployment. Most if not all abilities that set up before the first turn count as redeploying not arriving from reserves. So id say no as the deathmarks specifically exclude deployment as a trigger.
But the capacity from rangers is not during deployement.
So that mean they should arrive in their own deployement zone?
Because if they can then deathmark comming at the same time should be abble to do it too.
As far as it has been explained to me all the abilites that allow setup during the beging of first round but before the first turn count as a redeploy and not arriving from reserves. So im still going with a no go on the deathmarks. Also the fact that they mentioned in the fb comments that deathmarks were restricted by the beta rules tells me it doesnt work.
Inevitableq wrote: As far as it has been explained to me all the abilites that allow setup during the beging of first round but before the first turn count as a redeploy and not arriving from reserves. So im still going with a no go on the deathmarks. Also the fact that they mentioned in the fb comments that deathmarks were restricted by the beta rules tells me it doesnt work.
But you should read the ranger capacity it's not redeploy it's set up in the webway and then emerge at the first round before the battle begin.
So they should then be set up in theire zone or the deathmark should work too.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yes, but about about deathmarks? Can I deploy in the enemy deployment zone if they ds a squad there?
I'd say so, it's no longer your first turn. It's over. Now it's his first turn.
Be careful with this, it seems to be very hotly contested at the moment
Edit: The above is only in regards to models already on the table, not to do with deathmarks who are off table
If the enemy deepstrikes in your zone (begin his 2nd turn) - you can intercept him in your own zone. No problems.
If the enemy deepstrikes in his zone (his 1st turn), then he's no treat, keep your deathmarks for turn 2. No problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Few points
-Deceiver + monolith bomb: Key is to deliver monolith backside and use dimensional corridor stratagem to have charging turn 1 units like lychguard or flayed ones. Novokh if you want your CC tropps to strike hard, can use mephrit though to have a potent monolith. 1) It will ALWAYS work, you will always grand illusion at least your monolith. 2) Even if you don't start the game, having a monolith backfield will draw a LOT of fire. Enough to distrub your opponent 1st turn wipeout plans. Teleport accordingly so that not all his army can fire at your monolith. 3) Monolith do pack quite a punch still. It's flaw is that its expensive, consider at least 100 pts be worth to teleport a unit on turn 1. 4) Keep your monolith following your CC unit in their ass, if you get charged, that free portal of exile.
-VoD; Vanguard Obiron teleport works on turn one. Debate closed!
-Anything deepstrike / grand illusion /VoD: use shooters like Destroyers or others. I've seen a few post here and there planning to deepstrike a cc unit. You will need a 9'' charge which is not a done deal. Destroyers, even 20 warriors, any shooter, will be in rapid fire range.
-I've grand illusioned 3 DDA. This is FUN!!! 1st: you don't move, so you use your full power gun. 2) You can use your full power gun AND have 20 raid fire shot (60 with 3 DDA). That's just 800 pts in the backfield, hard to crack, that should keep your 1200 pts of troops safe for a while.
-Anybody had sucess runnig warrior blobs? I currently see no mathematical advantages except vs super heavy armies since their multiple wounds weapons don't count and they usually don't have enough shots.
-Played starcraft, had the idea to try 2 units of 5 preatorians striking on both flanks. It's not the best units, but they are fully autonomous, they don't need (nor react) to anything else to mounth a combo. They can use their own +1 to hit and +1Str stratagems.
-Destroyers + destroyer lord: why is nobody trying to use the Dlord as a Resurection Orb carrier? 18 Hp worth of destroyers is something good.
- Tomb blades are point for point supperiors to immortals. BUT there are too far from HQ most of the time to benefit from combos. So i would use them with guauss and nebuloscope. Cheap and good enough to inflict pain on any small unit hiding in cover.
-Anybody trying to deceiver the nighbringer and Imotekh? Seems like a MW fest.
-Nobody is assuming you will meet an army who is ficused on charging YOU. Orks, nids, khorne, even most chaos with loads of gakky troops. Plan: scarab screens (block of 4-5) lots of warriors and Anrakyr. 2A warriors, they can survive and retrated and you can have tesla immortals in the back waiting to fire or flayed onces / lychguard that you don't have to botter trying to deliver. If Sautekh you can use Orikan and have 5++ in CC. Else novokh / nikiliah will make good combat warriors.
That's it for now. Geez i'm really hooked with this new codex!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yes, but about about deathmarks? Can I deploy in the enemy deployment zone if they ds a squad there?
I'd say so, it's no longer your first turn. It's over. Now it's his first turn.
Be careful with this, it seems to be very hotly contested at the moment
Edit: The above is only in regards to models already on the table, not to do with deathmarks who are off table
If the enemy deepstrikes in your zone (begin his 2nd turn) - you can intercept him in your own zone. No problems.
If the enemy deepstrikes in his zone (his 1st turn), then he's no treat, keep your deathmarks for turn 2. No problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Few points
-Deceiver + monolith bomb: Key is to deliver monolith backside and use dimensional corridor stratagem to have charging turn 1 units like lychguard or flayed ones. Novokh if you want your CC tropps to strike hard, can use mephrit though to have a potent monolith. 1) It will ALWAYS work, you will always grand illusion at least your monolith. 2) Even if you don't start the game, having a monolith backfield will draw a LOT of fire. Enough to distrub your opponent 1st turn wipeout plans. Teleport accordingly so that not all his army can fire at your monolith. 3) Monolith do pack quite a punch still. It's flaw is that its expensive, consider at least 100 pts be worth to teleport a unit on turn 1. 4) Keep your monolith following your CC unit in their ass, if you get charged, that free portal of exile.
-VoD; Vanguard Obiron teleport works on turn one. Debate closed!
-Anything deepstrike / grand illusion /VoD: use shooters like Destroyers or others. I've seen a few post here and there planning to deepstrike a cc unit. You will need a 9'' charge which is not a done deal. Destroyers, even 20 warriors, any shooter, will be in rapid fire range.
-I've grand illusioned 3 DDA. This is FUN!!! 1st: you don't move, so you use your full power gun. 2) You can use your full power gun AND have 20 raid fire shot (60 with 3 DDA). That's just 800 pts in the backfield, hard to crack, that should keep your 1200 pts of troops safe for a while.
-Anybody had sucess runnig warrior blobs? I currently see no mathematical advantages except vs super heavy armies since their multiple wounds weapons don't count and they usually don't have enough shots.
-Played starcraft, had the idea to try 2 units of 5 preatorians striking on both flanks. It's not the best units, but they are fully autonomous, they don't need (nor react) to anything else to mounth a combo. They can use their own +1 to hit and +1Str stratagems.
-Destroyers + destroyer lord: why is nobody trying to use the Dlord as a Resurection Orb carrier? 18 Hp worth of destroyers is something good.
- Tomb blades are point for point supperiors to immortals. BUT there are too far from HQ most of the time to benefit from combos. So i would use them with guauss and nebuloscope. Cheap and good enough to inflict pain on any small unit hiding in cover.
-Anybody trying to deceiver the nighbringer and Imotekh? Seems like a MW fest.
-Nobody is assuming you will meet an army who is ficused on charging YOU. Orks, nids, khorne, even most chaos with loads of gakky troops. Plan: scarab screens (block of 4-5) lots of warriors and Anrakyr. 2A warriors, they can survive and retrated and you can have tesla immortals in the back waiting to fire or flayed onces / lychguard that you don't have to botter trying to deliver. If Sautekh you can use Orikan and have 5++ in CC. Else novokh / nikiliah will make good combat warriors.
That's it for now. Geez i'm really hooked with this new codex!
Well if you're hooked, you're in the right place . I've been hooked since I've seen them released in 3rd.
It's hard to assume the enemy will charge you as most of the time they won't. If you know you'll be playing nids or Bloodlord angels, you can plan acordingly,must most of the time you're not.
So everyone wants to use the Deceiver to Grand Illusion up a Vault (or three).
But did we determine what the best course of action was if going second?
And did we come to a consensus on which Dynasty the Vault should be played under was? (keeping in mind it can't benefit from Codes but CAN interact with Dynasty Strategems, eg. Sautekh's Methodical Destruction, so the 20 Tesla shots proc on 5+).
Anecdotal evidence in the spoiler tags about the ccb and Tesla TBs if you’re interested.
Spoiler:
I used a mephrit ccb sniper barge in 2 games vs drukhari and BT (matched play 1500, maelstrom). Both games it killed a character that was not the closest, an archon and chaplain and took wounds off a screened emperors champion.
Overall I found it a good warlord choice (nice manueurability and utility) but because I don’t have enough games not sure whether it is best choice compared to say the lightning field build.
Also I have been really impressed with the Tesla TB’s and the stratagem combination for weight of fire and extra hits (did it most turns). I was using them though at max range rather than going for the half range extra ap mephrit combo.
With the prevalence of multi damage weapons do we see the monolith bomb being worthwhile? I am doubtful of the points return as armies will still screen their best units and then specifically targeted it with the abundance of D3 and D6.
I like the deciever bomb in theory just don’t know whether it would more worthwhile with a different twist.
Diesinthewarp wrote: Anecdotal evidence in the spoiler tags about the ccb and Tesla TBs if you’re interested.
Spoiler:
I used a mephrit ccb sniper barge in 2 games vs drukhari and BT (matched play 1500, maelstrom). Both games it killed a character that was not the closest, an archon and chaplain and took wounds off a screened emperors champion.
Overall I found it a good warlord choice (nice manueurability and utility) but because I don’t have enough games not sure whether it is best choice compared to say the lightning field build.
Also I have been really impressed with the Tesla TB’s and the stratagem combination for weight of fire and extra hits (did it most turns). I was using them though at max range rather than going for the half range extra ap mephrit combo.
With the prevalence of multi damage weapons do we see the monolith bomb being worthwhile? I am doubtful of the points return as armies will still screen their best units and then specifically targeted it with the abundance of D3 and D6.
I like the deciever bomb in theory just don’t know whether it would more worthwhile with a different twist.
I played with the Gauss pylon against AM with 5 Leman russes the other day, and although it popped one tank a turn, he had enough fire power to kill it in two full turns of shooting. A single monolith might be no match.
I think key is to provide more threatening targets, ie wraiths Grand Illusioned up next to it, and have him struggle with them instead.
Had a very good game vs. Kraken Nids today at 2k points, using all of the new FAQ.
Tesla Immortals are still kickin' it for silver tide, esp kept tight with the cryptek and the fearless bubble. Scarab screen died well to a lot of genestealer overkill, letting my guns stay clear.
I was running Mephrit Dynasty, with a Battalion and an Outrider
Spoiler:
Batalion
Overlord with Warscythe and VoD + Immortal Pride Warlord Trait
Cryptek with Chronometron
x10 Tesla Immortals
x10 Tesla Immortals
x10 Tesla Immortals
Nightbringer
DDA Annihilation Barge
Outrider
Lord with Voidblade
x6 Wraiths
x7 Scarabs
x5 Destroyers
Biggest MVP - Destroyers - Killed an unwounded Tervigon, with a -1 to hit relic, in a round of shooting with EP
Biggest Dissapointment - Doomsday Ark - I think the sum total of damage I did was 1 hive guard and some Gants.
iGuy91 wrote: Had a very good game vs. Kraken Nids today at 2k points, using all of the new FAQ.
Tesla Immortals are still kickin' it for silver tide, esp kept tight with the cryptek and the fearless bubble. Scarab screen died well to a lot of genestealer overkill, letting my guns stay clear.
I was running Mephrit Dynasty, with a Battalion and an Outrider
Spoiler:
Batalion
Overlord with Warscythe and VoD + Immortal Pride Warlord Trait
Cryptek with Chronometron
x10 Tesla Immortals
x10 Tesla Immortals
x10 Tesla Immortals
Nightbringer
DDA Annihilation Barge
Outrider
Lord with Voidblade
x6 Wraiths
x7 Scarabs
x5 Destroyers
Biggest MVP - Destroyers - Killed an unwounded Tervigon, with a -1 to hit relic, in a round of shooting with EP
Biggest Dissapointment - Doomsday Ark - I think the sum total of damage I did was 1 hive guard and some Gants.
How did you like the nightbringer? Its nice with the 2+ to wound against Nid monsters, but once up close its fairly vulnerable to smites
iGuy91 wrote: Had a very good game vs. Kraken Nids today at 2k points, using all of the new FAQ.
Tesla Immortals are still kickin' it for silver tide, esp kept tight with the cryptek and the fearless bubble. Scarab screen died well to a lot of genestealer overkill, letting my guns stay clear.
I was running Mephrit Dynasty, with a Battalion and an Outrider
Spoiler:
Batalion
Overlord with Warscythe and VoD + Immortal Pride Warlord Trait
Cryptek with Chronometron
x10 Tesla Immortals
x10 Tesla Immortals
x10 Tesla Immortals
Nightbringer
DDA Annihilation Barge
Outrider
Lord with Voidblade
x6 Wraiths
x7 Scarabs
x5 Destroyers
Biggest MVP - Destroyers - Killed an unwounded Tervigon, with a -1 to hit relic, in a round of shooting with EP
Biggest Dissapointment - Doomsday Ark - I think the sum total of damage I did was 1 hive guard and some Gants.
How did you like the nightbringer? Its nice with the 2+ to wound against Nid monsters, but once up close its fairly vulnerable to smites
He plinked some mortal wounds off with powers, and then cut down a carnifex before drowning in gants shooting and charging. I don't think I used him quite right this game, but overall he tends to kill what I point him at, as long as I screen him properly.
Considering smite targets the nearest model, and I had the ability to deny via my warlord trait, smite didnt hurt me too much this game.
Just got back into 40k after about 18 months out. Decided I wanted to play Necrons so I could paint them up as Thokt Dynasty.
At the moment I only have the Necron half of Forgebane, with the Lychguard converted into Deathmarks.
Looks like there are some really nice things to do with Necrons on the tabletop, especially now all that silly alpha strike nonsense has been toned down, lol.
Was thinking of making the new SC box my next purchase, to bring my Immortal squad up to 10, get me a CCB, as well as a footlord and some Scarabs. Would this be reasonable? If not, what is a good next purchase?
Jackers wrote: Just got back into 40k after about 18 months out. Decided I wanted to play Necrons so I could paint them up as Thokt Dynasty.
At the moment I only have the Necron half of Forgebane, with the Lychguard converted into Deathmarks.
Looks like there are some really nice things to do with Necrons on the tabletop, especially now all that silly alpha strike nonsense has been toned down, lol.
Was thinking of making the new SC box my next purchase, to bring my Immortal squad up to 10, get me a CCB, as well as a footlord and some Scarabs. Would this be reasonable? If not, what is a good next purchase?
Get some destroyers or DDA for more anti vehicle power.
Yea, both are high up on my priority list for sure.
There are so many cool toys in this army, I'm going to need several lists to use them all, haha. I definitely want a list that includes a Vault, and a list that includes the Deceiver (always loved that model so much). Would you throw the Vault and Deceiver into one list, or is that a 'too many eggs' scenario?
Also want to have a list with some Wraiths in, as I love those models.
Very interested to see what ideas people can come up with for Grand Illusion, apart from the obvious Vault/Monolith stuff.
Jackers wrote: Would you throw the Vault and Deceiver into one list, or is that a 'too many eggs' scenario?
[...]
Very interested to see what ideas people can come up with for Grand Illusion, apart from the obvious Vault/Monolith stuff.
Well, you could also Grand-ill up several bunches of Gauss Immortals into cover within rapid fire range. If they're Mephrit that'll be particularly nasty.
The issue I have with the Deceiver Bomb is that if you're going second it's not worth doing as much. Yeah, it's still possible to be able to use it semi effectively then, but you're basically going to be using the ability to just fake your opponent out (eg. Place a few units into vulnerable positions, then move them to safety so hopefully your opponent has to waste part of their first turn repositioning to get a better angle on you).
Ah yea, hadn't really thought about what would happen if you didn't go first. That does make it a little less appealing tbh. 225 on the Deceiver is quite alot when his effectiveness hinges on 2 dice rolls before the game.
Might not be something I would take to a serious game, but it's probably worth a shot in a friendly game just for the look on their face, haha.
What would be the best way to use a Vault without the Deceiver?
Jackers wrote: Ah yea, hadn't really thought about what would happen if you didn't go first.
[...]
What would be the best way to use a Vault without the Deceiver?
Yeah, seems like a lot of people don't take this into account, despite the odds not exactly being great. (I try to plan my lists with a worst case scenario in mind, meaning I always assume I'm going second, so have never really factored the Deceiver in).
Granted, there *is* potential in that tactic where you take the Vault under the Nihilakh Dynasty so you can use their strategem to increase its invuln save to 3++, but you're still letting your opponent shoot at your juiciest target in rapid fire range and just hoping it survives until your first turn.
For moving him up, basically all you can do is be aggressive. You want it in range asap so you can still use it at full strength. Unfortunately because of its size all you can do is rely on its saves. On the plus side, however, you should be out of range of most of your opponent's stuff for the first turn.
... honestly, I don't know whether we've determined the "fool proof best way" to use the Vault yet.
Jackers wrote: Ah yea, hadn't really thought about what would happen if you didn't go first.
[...]
What would be the best way to use a Vault without the Deceiver?
Yeah, seems like a lot of people don't take this into account, despite the odds not exactly being great. (I try to plan my lists with a worst case scenario in mind, meaning I always assume I'm going second, so have never really factored the Deceiver in).
Granted, there *is* potential in that tactic where you take the Vault under the Nihilakh Dynasty so you can use their strategem to increase its invuln save to 3++, but you're still letting your opponent shoot at your juiciest target in rapid fire range and just hoping it survives until your first turn.
For moving him up, basically all you can do is be aggressive. You want it in range asap so you can still use it at full strength. Unfortunately because of its size all you can do is rely on its saves. On the plus side, however, you should be out of range of most of your opponent's stuff for the first turn.
... honestly, I don't know whether we've determined the "fool proof best way" to use the Vault yet.
Remember you know of you go first or not when you redeploy.
You could put it 18" or so away, forcing his light infantry to move up to get rapid fire. Then you still have 8" of fly to put him in range of his powers. Something to consider.
Secondly I would go all in. Reroll a 1 to redeploy, to have 2+ units up.set up the Deceiver screened by Wraiths, warriors and possibly an overlord, the vault, and in your turn Veil up a cryptek with more immortals or warriors. Scarabs and tomb blades race up in their movement,suddenly he has 4-5 units on his doorstep if he goes first, another 3-4 if he goes second.
He has to think long and hard before he puts everything he had into the Vault
This would be the optimal way against Tau and AM likely.
Against deathguard and dameons it might be different
Wraiths have two stratagems that work for them: Repair Subroutines (gives them RP, kinda mediocre but worth having in a pinch) and Adaptive Subroutines (advance and charge, awesome and a core part of my Nephrekh list). I don't think there are any character auras that work on wraiths since all of our stuff specifies infantry.
I had a 1500pt game yesterday vs Khorne. Tabled him turn 3. Highlight of the match - getting Scarabs to explode using my last CP to deal 3 MW on the bloodthister which killed it leaving my opponent modeless. It was a funny outcome to a very bloody match.
My list
Spoiler:
Mephrit Battalion
-HQ-
CCB - Lighting Field - Gauss Cannon - Warscythe
Cryptek - Chromothron - VoD
Lord - Warlord - Immortal Pride
-Heavy-
DDA DDA Spyder - Fab Claws, Gloom Prism (incase I went against pyskers).
-Edit-
Seen people mention Deceiver and how to use is GI ability as best as you can. Here's my opinion.
If I include the Deceiver in my list I usually pick 3 models to re-deploy offensively and 3 units to re-deploy defensively. I do this so I know what I am doing before the game starts. We can all agree that there is nothing worse then going 2nd and re-deploying your units into not great positions hence why I pick 3 offensive and defensive.
On average your going to re-deploy 2 other units and the Deceiver so what are the best 2 units to deploy offensively and defensively?
Offensive
Spoiler:
For the offense I think 2 units of Immortals is probably the best to deploy. I say this because putting them in cover gives them a 2+ save. You can also then VoD a Lord and The 3rd unit you wanted to re-deploy (let's say 15 warriors)towards the Immortals. This will net you 30 S4 shots re-rolling 1s to wound and 40 S5 Re-rolling 1 to wound. I am not sure which Immortals to take though so it all depends on your tactics and Dynasty e.g. Tesla if using Mephrit, Sautekh and Nihilakh and Gauss for Nihilakh or Mephrit.
My favorite offensive re-deploy, if I get the 3 on the D3, is 2 units of Immortals and Szeras into terrain. Then VoD Lord with Warriors. Use Warriors as screen and upgrade them 1st to "hopefully" T5 to repeal CC threats better. Then use that core as your distraction carnifex.
Defensive
Spoiler:
with the new FaQ the best units to re-deploy on the defensive is Scarabs. Because your opponent can't move past other enemy models unless stated otherwise they will hinder all your non-flying enemy models due to them only being able to move in their deployment zone or up to 11" from there Deployment zone towards you. This will stop the enemy from getting board control "for the most part". We will still have to worry about infiltrating units but it's not as bad as it was up to a week ago. Also, if the Scarabs are charged you can explode 1 model in 1 of those units to make sure your doing 1-3 mortal wounds. Alternatively, Warriors are also pretty good. 1pt less then Scarabs, can go into bigger squads and can overwatch. I rather use Scrabs due to their speed and being able to explode. But, 2 units of 20 man warriors spread 12" from you opponents deployment zone is going to be a very obvious distraction Carnifex but for 240pts it can be worth it if your use for them is to soak up hits and stop your more important models from being charged. If you get to re-deploy 3 then Warriors backed with Orikan can be brutal to destroy. 40 warriors backed with 5+ invul for both CC and shooting with a 4+ RP will be a big threat for you opponent to have right outside his deployment zone. It literally too important for them to ignore it.
Odrankt wrote: I had a 1500pt game yesterday vs Khorne. Tabled him turn 3. Highlight of the match - getting Scarabs to explode using my last CP to deal 3 MW on the bloodthister which killed it leaving my opponent modeless. It was a funny outcome to a very bloody match.
My list
Spoiler:
Mephrit Battalion
-HQ-
CCB - Lighting Field - Gauss Cannon - Warscythe
Cryptek - Chromothron - VoD
Lord - Warlord - Immortal Pride
-Heavy-
DDA DDA Spyder - Fab Claws, Gloom Prism (incase I went against pyskers).
Nice one! got a couple of questions:
-You've taken a Mephrit CCB without turning it into a 'Snipe-barge' with the Mephrit relic Staff of Light and the Mephrit WL. Would that have come in handy in your list? Or did he do a lot of work with the Scythe and the Lightning Field?
-How much did Immortal Pride help?
-Did those large units of Scarabs work, or would more smaller units have been better?
-How much did the Spyder do over the course of the match. Was he worth his points?
Odrankt wrote: I had a 1500pt game yesterday vs Khorne. Tabled him turn 3. Highlight of the match - getting Scarabs to explode using my last CP to deal 3 MW on the bloodthister which killed it leaving my opponent modeless. It was a funny outcome to a very bloody match.
My list
Spoiler:
Mephrit Battalion
-HQ-
CCB - Lighting Field - Gauss Cannon - Warscythe
Cryptek - Chromothron - VoD
Lord - Warlord - Immortal Pride
-Heavy-
DDA DDA Spyder - Fab Claws, Gloom Prism (incase I went against pyskers).
Nice one! got a couple of questions:
-You've taken a Mephrit CCB without turning it into a 'Snipe-barge' with the Mephrit relic Staff of Light and the Mephrit WL. Would that have come in handy in your list? Or did he do a lot of work with the Scythe and the Lightning Field?
-How much did Immortal Pride help?
-Did those large units of Scarabs work, or would more smaller units have been better?
-How much did the Spyder do over the course of the match. Was he worth his points?
It is a part of an escalation league so the CCB is there because I like it. Not because if the specific dynasty. Also, in my previous games I had my CCB as my Warlord and always had him die within the 1st 2 turns. This was the first game he wasn't the Warlord and it actually preformed better then expected. I used him as a mobile body guard for my Cryptek and Lord. E.g. when he charged his Bloodthister into my Scarabs I heroic interventioned into his Bloodthister and did 4 wounds after his invul and FnP rolls. Also, lighting field let me deal 2 Mortal wounds to his Bloodthister as well which was very nice. The Mephrit Warlord trait is amazing but I don't think it would have worked in this game. Also, his Bloodthister was the Warlord so I was able to target it anyway
Immortal pride helped A LOT! he put my 17 Warriors to 1 model and both Immmortals squads went from 9 to 2. If it wasnt for the trait only 1 of 3 units would have survived (spending 2CP auto pass morale). FYI on my turn I rolled 12 warriors back, 4 Immortals and 5 Immortals. My opponent was PISSED. He actually left the shop for 10 minutes because of it.
Scarabs did very well. Big unit charged into 2 units of khorne and held them off from moving up the board for 2 turns. 6 Scarab unit was used to screen the Sypder and DDAs. They were also used to anti-charge my enemy if he came into my zone. Which he did. I then put the Scarabs around my Lord incase he charged so that I could explode it. Honestly, if your going for exploding Scarabs then I think min squads are the way to go. Hide them in terrain, have your opponent come up to your face, chagre with hidden Scarabs, explode before doing attacks and watch their face as it slowly turns red
Sypder was so-so. It brought back 1 Scarab I exploded,healed both DDAs with 2 wounds rather then 1 and killed a HQ in CC. No one charges my Scarabs and gets away with it I personally would prefer 3 DDAs but the Sypder is there incase I go up against a very strong pysker army.
What would be the best way to use a Vault without the Deceiver?
Missed this part.
I'd advance or move him up towards where your shorter range powers would make a difference, move or advance depending on how badly you need those Tesla shots to hit first turn
Accompanied with Wraiths to force him to choose targets. If you get it near an objective you could pop the 3++ stratagem.
And perhaps a bigger entourage, destroyers moving into range, Scarabs, nightbringer or what forces you need to bring closer.
TheWaspinator wrote: Has anyone considered Gates of Antares Ghar as alternative Destroyers? You would want to mount them on flight stands, but I think it could work.
TheWaspinator wrote: Has anyone considered Gates of Antares Ghar as alternative Destroyers? You would want to mount them on flight stands, but I think it could work.
Hey guys, lately I've been lurking around this forum and I thought it was about time I joined the party.
I recently purchased the Necron half of the Forgebane box, and with that and what I already had from stuff I bought a couple of months ago I have:
An Overlord and a Cryptek as HQs, 20 warriors and 10 immortals as troops, a Triarch Stalker and 5 Lychguard as Elites and 6 Scarabs and 3 Wraiths as Fast Attack. I'm still painting what I've got and this is more of a future plan, but it's nice to have some direction soo what are your suggested paths?
I've been considering getting yet another half of the Forgebane box; Crypteks and Immortals are imperative imo and having two and 20 respectively would be a nice baseline, which means if the Lychguard and the Wraiths are any good as 10 and 6 respectively it would make the investment worth it. Would you guys recommend this path? I may be blinded by my love for Wraiths so I wanted to make sure as really I'm still pretty much a noob haha What units are a must have in your opinion?
Went to a tournament yesterday, my list was just a jumble of all the stuff I currently have because I haven't the funds for my real list yet.
MVP was definitely the destroyers.Every opponent acted nonchalant about them Veiling up turn one until they shot, then their number one priority was killing them. Which nobody managed to do in less than 3 turns. LVP was Nightbringer. The one power never did anything special and I got more value out of my CCB almost every game, he is designed to get stuck in but two games was just drowned in mobs and the third game died to two wulfen, wish he had a 3++.
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
I saw this a few pages back and thought that it was a good tactic, until I read the Necron Codex FAQ and Methodical Destruction you now have to do an unsaved wound by an attack. So like shooting or melee. Imotekhs Lord of the Storm isn't an attack, just an ability that triggers in the shooting phase. So you can't use the mortal wounds it causes as unsaved wounds to trigger Methodical Destruction.
I just wanted to point it out so people don't get called out for it during a game.
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
I saw this a few pages back and thought that it was a good tactic, until I read the Necron Codex FAQ and Methodical Destruction you now have to do an unsaved wound by an attack. So like shooting or melee. Imotekhs Lord of the Storm isn't an attack, just an ability that triggers in the shooting phase. So you can't use the mortal wounds it causes as unsaved wounds to trigger Methodical Destruction.
I just wanted to point it out so people don't get called out for it during a game.
Got a BRB reference for an attack only being melee or shooting? Cos I've never heard of this limitation before. My reading is that the wording change was made to remove any reference to 'unsaved wounds' that might disallow MWs from counting.
amnz wrote: What units are a must have in your opinion?
The very first post in this thread has a list of every Necron unit and how the community at large rates them, but the short list of bests are:
• Immortals
• Scarabs
• Destroyers
• Doomsday Arks
Other extremely good but not necessarily auto include options are:
• Imotekh
• Command Barge
• Deceiver
• Wraiths
• Tomb Blades
• Tesseract Vault
Other things not already listed may still be useful in the right combination but a list built including the things above would be very strong.
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
I saw this a few pages back and thought that it was a good tactic, until I read the Necron Codex FAQ and Methodical Destruction you now have to do an unsaved wound by an attack. So like shooting or melee. Imotekhs Lord of the Storm isn't an attack, just an ability that triggers in the shooting phase. So you can't use the mortal wounds it causes as unsaved wounds to trigger Methodical Destruction.
I just wanted to point it out so people don't get called out for it during a game.
Got a BRB reference for an attack only being melee or shooting? Cos I've never heard of this limitation before. My reading is that the wording change was made to remove any reference to 'unsaved wounds' that might disallow MWs from counting.
Hi, Jackers: Only weapons with a profile can make attacks. The only reference to "attacking" are in the Shooting and Fight Phase sections which refer to using weapons.
amnz wrote: What units are a must have in your opinion?
The very first post in this thread has a list of every Necron unit and how the community at large rates them, but the short list of bests are:
• Immortals
• Scarabs
• Destroyers
• Doomsday Arks
Other extremely good but not necessarily auto include options are:
• Imotekh
• Command Barge
• Deceiver
• Wraiths
• Tomb Blades
• Tesseract Vault
Other things not already listed may still be useful in the right combination but a list built including the things above would be very strong.
Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the list. Thanks for your help! One thing, you can only get scarabs by buying more Warriors right?
Hi, Jackers: Only weapons with a profile can make attacks. The only reference to "attacking" are in the Shooting and Fight Phase sections which refer to using weapons.
Hmm, I'm not really sold on that being RAI, even if it can be read as RAW. Maybe a trip to YMDC is needed, lol.
Hi, Jackers: Only weapons with a profile can make attacks. The only reference to "attacking" are in the Shooting and Fight Phase sections which refer to using weapons.
Hmm, I'm not really sold on that being RAI, even if it can be read as RAW. Maybe a trip to YMDC is needed, lol.
I mean, if your opponents are okay with it, then who cares?
But for tournament settings, very few TOs will let you play it the way you are suggesting (post-FAQ).
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
I saw this a few pages back and thought that it was a good tactic, until I read the Necron Codex FAQ and Methodical Destruction you now have to do an unsaved wound by an attack. So like shooting or melee. Imotekhs Lord of the Storm isn't an attack, just an ability that triggers in the shooting phase. So you can't use the mortal wounds it causes as unsaved wounds to trigger Methodical Destruction.
I just wanted to point it out so people don't get called out for it during a game.
Got a BRB reference for an attack only being melee or shooting? Cos I've never heard of this limitation before. My reading is that the wording change was made to remove any reference to 'unsaved wounds' that might disallow MWs from counting.
Hi, Jackers: Only weapons with a profile can make attacks. The only reference to "attacking" are in the Shooting and Fight Phase sections which refer to using weapons.
This was FAQ'ed to no longer use the word unsaved. It does still say attack though. Isn't the Stormlord ability an attack though? Albeit in a less formal sense perhaps?
That is my thinking. I feel like this is going to be the equivalent of the 'What counts as a Flamer weapon' thing that people argued about endlessly to try and get Tzeentch flamers past units that got bonuses against flamers, lol.
Any ideas how to deal with Psilencers? I find they just mulch everthing we have. What a stupid weapon. Nothing with 6 shots that can be taken multiple times should have D3 damage and ignore LoS.
Imo it's not a coïncidence that the lightning strike happens when immotekh is around. That means it must be an attack used by him. The fact that you don't see a lightning gun doesnt mean it's not an attack.
I think it's pretty clear they intended for a more clear rule by allowing MW to trigger this. Since he is the phaeron of the Dynasty, it would be weird if his special abilities wouldn't allow for his dynasties stratagem to work.
But that's just my point of view
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Any ideas how to deal with Psilencers? I find they just mulch everthing we have. What a stupid weapon. Nothing with 6 shots that can be taken multiple times should have D3 damage and ignore LoS.
They ignore LoS only in specific conditions so I wouldn't heavily think about that. Our single wound models are good at tanking them as, you have to remember, Grey Knight players are basically using them as their AT, AA, and everything under the sun.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So spam warriors? How would that protect our actual damage dealers though?
Nah that's still an Immortal's job. If you were already using a blob of Warriors with a Veil though you're in a good spot to help deny access to bigger targets.
Particle Caster Wraiths actually are pretty good mathammer wise. Just that advancing doesn't let you shoot pistol.
If you stratagem, heavy destroyers are worse against almost every target than destroyers,
rvd1ofakind wrote: Particle Caster Wraiths actually are pretty good mathammer wise. Just that advancing doesn't let you shoot pistol.
If you stratagem, heavy destroyers are worse against almost every target than destroyers,
If you play the stratagem to let wraiths charge after advancing, they can also shoot.
And if you keep them in CC, they can also shoot.
S6 is quite good against T3 armies. Plonks a few extra guys here and there, could also move up to be close to characters to shoot at them. Quite useful.
I do like the idea of the particle casters, I just can't stand how they look on the model. Hopefully my more casual opponents will be fine with me using the casters without that ugly bit of plastic, haha.
TBH...my wraiths have been very underwhelming in the last few games I've used them. Seem to be just massive fire magnets. And while I understand it keeps other stuff safe, there isn't normally enough of them left to hurt much. Thoughts on supporting them?
What do you guys think would be the most fluffy army? There aren't as many novels talking about anything else then hordes of Warriors (mostly lazy writing imo) but what do you guys think would fit with a pure fluffy army? And could something like that even work on the tabletop?
Necron fluff is some of the worst in the game tbh. Even the fluff in the new book is mostly generic and/or copy pasted. Not sure if we have enough to go on to come up something 'fluffy' like most other armies can.
Jackers wrote: Ah yea, hadn't really thought about what would happen if you didn't go first. That does make it a little less appealing tbh. 225 on the Deceiver is quite alot when his effectiveness hinges on 2 dice rolls before the game.
Might not be something I would take to a serious game, but it's probably worth a shot in a friendly game just for the look on their face, haha.
What would be the best way to use a Vault without the Deceiver?
Actually you can also use the deceiver when you know you don,t start the game (which happens pretty much all the time in my case). I reposition D3 troops and put them in cover mid field.
Nagerash wrote: What do you guys think would be the most fluffy army? There aren't as many novels talking about anything else then hordes of Warriors (mostly lazy writing imo) but what do you guys think would fit with a pure fluffy army? And could something like that even work on the tabletop?
Well, considering the Codex fluff you could do something with Anrakyr and his Immortals (some line said hes famous for his immortal legions) or you could also do Zhandrek + Obyron + their Lychguard Legions (something I tried to do but it requires you to go Sautekh wich is useless for Lychguard)
Immothek plus Flayed Ones (remember reading something about him summoning them via nano scarabs or something)
The rest of the fluff is pretty much as you said „hordes of warriors
Actually you can also use the deceiver when you know you don,t start the game (which happens pretty much all the time in my case). I reposition D3 troops and put them in cover mid field.
Thanks for this sounds like a solid backup plan, giving you some bonus range and a bit more mid-table control.
Nagerash wrote: What do you guys think would be the most fluffy army? There aren't as many novels talking about anything else then hordes of Warriors (mostly lazy writing imo) but what do you guys think would fit with a pure fluffy army? And could something like that even work on the tabletop?
Dead men walking features some great necron action.
To mimic the attacks from the waking tomb world you'd start with Scarabs buzzing across the field, even more fluffy now that they actually have Fly.
Then pockets of flayed ones would ride from the ground to surprise attack the schaff and cause general disarray.
Patrols of warriors would skirmish your lines before the main force attacks with waves of warriors, Wraiths darting ahead to appear as out of thin air
behind them immortals, then destroyers and a monolith or two pooring out more and more units
Actually you can also use the deceiver when you know you don,t start the game (which happens pretty much all the time in my case). I reposition D3 troops and put them in cover mid field.
Thanks for this sounds like a solid backup plan, giving you some bonus range and a bit more mid-table control.
You could also give false signals, or move your DDAs or the other side of the field, away from his 36" guns and his footslogging cc troops
torblind wrote: Something else - what part(s) of the codex would synergize well with the Transcendent C'Tan - or two of them?
You'd want to connect him with the enemy to make use of his powers. Scarabs to screen for smites, Tesla immortals to clear schaff I suppose?
But are there particularly appealing combos with his powers or abilities?
No. C'tan really should only be fielded as the Deceiver or Tesseract Vault.
C'tan powers from non-vaults is incredibly unreliable and overpriced. Also, their durability is just miserable for their cost.
The Deceiver is good because of Grand Illusion, anything he does after that is a bonus. Vaults may actually kill things while being harder to kill themselves.
I borrowed 12 destroyers so i want to use them. Gonna be double 6 squads deepstriking, one on turn 2 the other on turn 3, with destruction protocol each turn. 4 CP reserved out of 9. If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.
So i got to be able to survive until turn 3 with the rest. I actually got a use for warrior blob and mephrit is gonna be their faction. I come up with 83 points over. Help me out. Warlord trait and artefact is still up in the air.
Spoiler:
Silver Tide Bataillon +5 CP Mephrit
Unit Qty Unit Type COST
1 1 Lord +orb HQ 118
1 1 Cryptek +chrono HQ 95
2 20 Warriors T 480
1 10 Warriors T 120
1 1 Ghost Ark Dt 160
2 1 Doomsday Ark Hv 386
1359
Outrider +1 CP Nephrekh
Unit Qty Unit Type COST
1 1 Cryptek +cloak HQ 85
1 6 Destroyers F 300
1 6 Destroyers F 300
1 3 Canoptek Scarab F 39
724
Total: 2083
I peak at 120 rapid fire shot S4 ap-2 which is not bad, reroll 1 to wound. I figure MWBD is less important with warriors but i could always field Anrakyr in my outrider detachment so he can also MWBD my mephrit warriors. Would provide close combat punnch if i get charged. But that would be 100pts more or so.
My nephrekh HQ now is a cryptek with a cloak that i hope to be able to advance downfield for a needed destroyers RP roll on turn 3 or 4.
50 warrior hit point with 5++ and double RP. Also have 1 res orb. It should be able to survive long enough. Ghost ark can actually embark a unit and go objective hunting later.
And the standard double DDA to soften some target until the destros arrive. May be that's overkill though and something else could do a better job there. A cc unit? Deathmarks?
torblind wrote: Something else - what part(s) of the codex would synergize well with the Transcendent C'Tan - or two of them?
You'd want to connect him with the enemy to make use of his powers. Scarabs to screen for smites, Tesla immortals to clear schaff I suppose?
But are there particularly appealing combos with his powers or abilities?
No. C'tan really should only be fielded as the Deceiver or Tesseract Vault.
C'tan powers from non-vaults is incredibly unreliable and overpriced. Also, their durability is just miserable for their cost.
The Deceiver is good because of Grand Illusion, anything he does after that is a bonus. Vaults may actually kill things while being harder to kill themselves.
I play nightbringer and he never disappointed me. He easy kill most durable target. Like 2+ or 3++ or 5+++ with hight T - by hight ap and mortal W.
Da W wrote: I borrowed 12 destroyers so i want to use them. Gonna be double 6 squads deepstriking, one on turn 2 the other on turn 3, with destruction protocol each turn. 4 CP reserved out of 9. If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.
So i got to be able to survive until turn 3 with the rest. I actually got a use for warrior blob and mephrit is gonna be their faction. I come up with 83 points over. Help me out. Warlord trait and artefact is still up in the air.
Spoiler:
Silver Tide Bataillon +5 CP Mephrit
Unit Qty Unit Type COST
1 1 Lord +orb HQ 118
1 1 Cryptek +chrono HQ 95
2 20 Warriors T 480
1 10 Warriors T 120
1 1 Ghost Ark Dt 160
2 1 Doomsday Ark Hv 386
1359
Outrider +1 CP Nephrekh
Unit Qty Unit Type COST
1 1 Cryptek +cloak HQ 85
1 6 Destroyers F 300
1 6 Destroyers F 300
1 3 Canoptek Scarab F 39
724
Total: 2083
I peak at 120 rapid fire shot S4 ap-2 which is not bad, reroll 1 to wound. I figure MWBD is less important with warriors but i could always field Anrakyr in my outrider detachment so he can also MWBD my mephrit warriors. Would provide close combat punnch if i get charged. But that would be 100pts more or so.
My nephrekh HQ now is a cryptek with a cloak that i hope to be able to advance downfield for a needed destroyers RP roll on turn 3 or 4.
50 warrior hit point with 5++ and double RP. Also have 1 res orb. It should be able to survive long enough. Ghost ark can actually embark a unit and go objective hunting later.
And the standard double DDA to soften some target until the destros arrive. May be that's overkill though and something else could do a better job there. A cc unit? Deathmarks?
I think the res orb is not needed. You can't use the ghost Arks ability and the res orb in the same turn so it's basically 35pts wasted. Also, while RPing twice a turn on 4+ is nice, i never really got any good rolls from the ghost ark to make it's 160pt cost worth it. If you could I would drop the GA for another DDA if you think it be worth it.
torblind wrote: Something else - what part(s) of the codex would synergize well with the Transcendent C'Tan - or two of them?
You'd want to connect him with the enemy to make use of his powers. Scarabs to screen for smites, Tesla immortals to clear schaff I suppose?
But are there particularly appealing combos with his powers or abilities?
No. C'tan really should only be fielded as the Deceiver or Tesseract Vault.
C'tan powers from non-vaults is incredibly unreliable and overpriced. Also, their durability is just miserable for their cost.
The Deceiver is good because of Grand Illusion, anything he does after that is a bonus. Vaults may actually kill things while being harder to kill themselves.
yeah figures i suppose. but isnt there any synergy, even for friendlier games?
Da W wrote: I borrowed 12 destroyers so i want to use them. Gonna be double 6 squads deepstriking, one on turn 2 the other on turn 3, with destruction protocol each turn. 4 CP reserved out of 9. If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.
So i got to be able to survive until turn 3 with the rest. I actually got a use for warrior blob and mephrit is gonna be their faction. I come up with 83 points over. Help me out. Warlord trait and artefact is still up in the air.
Spoiler:
Silver Tide Bataillon +5 CP Mephrit
Unit Qty Unit Type COST
1 1 Lord +orb HQ 118
1 1 Cryptek +chrono HQ 95
2 20 Warriors T 480
1 10 Warriors T 120
1 1 Ghost Ark Dt 160
2 1 Doomsday Ark Hv 386
1359
Outrider +1 CP Nephrekh
Unit Qty Unit Type COST
1 1 Cryptek +cloak HQ 85
1 6 Destroyers F 300
1 6 Destroyers F 300
1 3 Canoptek Scarab F 39
724
Total: 2083
I peak at 120 rapid fire shot S4 ap-2 which is not bad, reroll 1 to wound. I figure MWBD is less important with warriors but i could always field Anrakyr in my outrider detachment so he can also MWBD my mephrit warriors. Would provide close combat punnch if i get charged. But that would be 100pts more or so.
My nephrekh HQ now is a cryptek with a cloak that i hope to be able to advance downfield for a needed destroyers RP roll on turn 3 or 4.
50 warrior hit point with 5++ and double RP. Also have 1 res orb. It should be able to survive long enough. Ghost ark can actually embark a unit and go objective hunting later.
And the standard double DDA to soften some target until the destros arrive. May be that's overkill though and something else could do a better job there. A cc unit? Deathmarks?
I think the res orb is not needed. You can't use the ghost Arks ability and the res orb in the same turn so it's basically 35pts wasted. Also, while RPing twice a turn on 4+ is nice, i never really got any good rolls from the ghost ark to make it's 160pt cost worth it. If you could I would drop the GA for another DDA if you think it be worth it.
You only really pay 40 points for the res ability as it also has the firepower of 10 warriors. So 40 points for a res orb every turn + the durability of QS isn't a bad deal.
If you think/know you can get your warriors to survive all game than a Ghost Ark is pretty good. But, if you think your going to struggle with keeping warriors alive your better off getting a DDA for an extra 33pts and get more S10 shots.
Da W wrote: If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.
I don't understand how you're doing this.
I think they mean if the enemy gets close enough your deployment zone that they would be in range of shooting, can you deepstrike a unit into your deployment zone to shoot at them. If so, the answer is yes since you are allowed to deepstrike into your deployment zone.
Da W wrote: If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.
I don't understand how you're doing this.
I think they mean if the enemy gets close enough your deployment zone that they would be in range of shooting, can you deepstrike a unit into your deployment zone to shoot at them. If so, the answer is yes since you are allowed to deepstrike into your deployment zone.
This. 24'' range you can possibly deepstrike T1 on your zone and still be able to strike agressive enemies. You stay close to your cryptek to boot!
Da W wrote: If i start the game second and the enemy gets close i can possibly deepstrike a unit on T1.
I don't understand how you're doing this.
I think they mean if the enemy gets close enough your deployment zone that they would be in range of shooting, can you deepstrike a unit into your deployment zone to shoot at them. If so, the answer is yes since you are allowed to deepstrike into your deployment zone.
This. 24'' range you can possibly deepstrike T1 on your zone and still be able to strike agressive enemies. You stay close to your cryptek to boot!
I am actually planning on running a Nephrekh Cryptek to teleport in next to the Destroyers. With the Nephrekh Dynastic Code, the Cryptek can keep up with the Destroyers with a 5" move + 6" advance to provide constant RP buffs, plus a 5++ from shooting whenever I can afford a Chorometron to protect them from the high AP/high Damage shooting that is bound to come their way. Things start to get hilarious if I give the Cryptek VoD.
Trigger warning: if you hate numbers or are a casual player - turn away.
Damage/durability per point charts: https://imgur.com/a/gqOOTTc Mix damage means ranged+melee. (shoot and charge in the same turn)
Green is good. Red is bad. Compared against AdMech, Chaos Daemons, Orks, Tyranids and some outlier great units like obliterators and such.
Units to take with a pinch of salt: DDA because the guns are very different; C'Tan units because it's impossible to count how much damage the powers do. I went with about 3-4 MW per power to have a number.
About mathhammer:
Mathhammer is a tool for competitive players to help evaluate the units. You can compare very similar units: destroyers and heavy destroyers and see that destroyers are more efficient against every target when you pop the stratagem. You can find which unit is the best for the role you need: screen, anti-horde, anti-elite. You can find which unit to spend buffs on or maybe if buffs are just not worth it. Obviously mathhammer doesn't take into account movement, range and obscure rules that don't dirrectly inpact damage/survivability. That you have to evaluate for yourself, however mathammer will tell you, for example "this unit is TERRIBLE for its points. Is this ability/movement/range really worth this many points?"
You can get the xls in my signature bellow
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stuff I've learned:
destroyers outperform heavy destroyers against every target if you pop the stratagem.
Wraiths, unless you're taking them to screen, should be taken with particle.
Destroyers do about the same as DDAs against high T targets with invul saves. They outperform DDAs period if you pop the stratagem (which you should)
Gauss Immortals are just terrible if not in RF range. Even with -1 to hit - just take tesla
Anhiliation Barge SUCKS. Straight up worst unit in the codex
Every character is bad for it's points in terms of damage/durability. Only take them for their ablities.
Shooters:
Necron Warriors: take in big blobs for RP. Cheapest bodies. Better than Gauss Immortals against anything bellow 3+ save. More or less the same durability as Immortals.
Immortals: Tesla > Gauss. There. I said it. Gauss only does better in RF range against 4+ or better targets. At non-RF range, even without the 6+ to explode(like at -1 to hit) tesla is better against any target.
Deathmarks: Worse than Gauss Immortals, who are bad to begin with.
Triarch Stalker: bad for it's points. The only saving grace is re-roll 1s to hit for other units. Still not worth it probably. Best option: Particle Shredder
Tomb Blades: Average for everything. Average is bad. Best option: Tesla Carbine
Destroyer: Probably the best thing in the codex. Great against every target. Best anti-tank in the codex with stratagem. Bad durability though (ignoring RP)
Heavy Destroyer: outclassed by destroyer. Destroyer does more damage against every target if both pop stratagem. Only consider if you're taking multiple destroyer units and little to no DDAs Canoptek Spyder: bad damage and durability. Take for abilities only. However it's not a character and AdMech HQs are bad so I think it's just bad.
Monolith: solidly average in everything. Take for abilities only.
Annihilation Barge: Worst unit in the codex.
Doomsday Arc: Best anti-tank after stratagem'd destroyers.
Doom Scythe: Bad damage, OK durablity. Doesn't do anything else. Skip.
Night Scythe: Worse damage, better durability. Consider for the ability only.
Obelisk: average. Situational ability. Skip.
Tesseract Vault: Mortarion's durability + mortal wounds factory = really good.
Mixed:
Triarch Praetorians: trying really to get the top spot for worst unit in the codex but alas Annhilation Barge exists.
Canoptek Wraiths: Hive Tyrants of Necrons. Except worse. That still means they're one of the better units. Take with Particle unless you are taking them to screen.
Melee:
Lychguard: Slow but higher damage wraiths. Take with sword and shield as the damage difference is minimal.
Scarabs: about average damage, pretty good durability for points. Easy kill points though.
Flayed Ones: Other armies have melee units that are so much better it's not even funny. Skip. (ork boyz are about 2-3 times better for exmaple)
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver: only take for the ability. The ability is HUGE so it's great if you use it correctly.
C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer: about average. Meaning it's not good enough.
Transcendent C’tan: hard to evaluate. Nothing amazing on paper though.
Trigger warning: if you hate numbers or are a casual player - turn away.
Damage/durability per point charts: https://imgur.com/a/gqOOTTc Mix damage means ranged+melee. (shoot and charge in the same turn)
Green is good. Red is bad. Compared against AdMech, Chaos Daemons, Orks, Tyranids and some outlier great units like obliterators and such.
Units to take with a pinch of salt: DDA because the guns are very different; C'Tan units because it's impossible to count how much damage the powers do. I went with about 3-4 MW per power to have a number.
About mathhammer:
Mathhammer is a tool for competitive players to help evaluate the units. You can compare very similar units: destroyers and heavy destroyers and see that destroyers are more efficient against every target when you pop the stratagem. You can find which unit is the best for the role you need: screen, anti-horde, anti-elite. You can find which unit to spend buffs on or maybe if buffs are just not worth it. Obviously mathhammer doesn't take into account movement, range and obscure rules that don't dirrectly inpact damage/survivability. That you have to evaluate for yourself, however mathammer will tell you, for example "this unit is TERRIBLE for its points. Is this ability/movement/range really worth this many points?"
You can get the xls in my signature bellow
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stuff I've learned:
destroyers outperform heavy destroyers against every target if you pop the stratagem.
Wraiths, unless you're taking them to screen, should be taken with particle.
Destroyers do about the same as DDAs against high T targets with invul saves. They outperform DDAs period if you pop the stratagem (which you should)
Gauss Immortals are just terrible if not in RF range. Even with -1 to hit - just take tesla
Anhiliation Barge SUCKS. Straight up worst unit in the codex
Can you compare Heavy Destroyers at BS2+ vs Regular Destroyers with the strategem rerolls? Because for 1 CP (or Imotekh or Sautekh) BS2 on 6 Heavy Destroyers is the same as 1 CP for extermination protocols on 6 Regular.
Can you do the same factoring in an additional reroll 1's to wound for Heavy Destroyers?
Can you also do Regular Destroyers at BS4 with the stratagem, representing -1 to hit?
Wow, so Night Scythe is not worse than Annihilation Barge, huh?
Go figure.
(I would have thought the lack of QS would have landed it in the worst spot).
Still not worth taking, regardless.
Can you compare Heavy Destroyers at BS2+ vs Regular Destroyers with the strategem rerolls? Because for 1 CP (or Imotekh or Sautekh) BS2 on 6 Heavy Destroyers is the same as 1 CP for extermination protocols on 6 Regular.
Can you do the same factoring in an additional reroll 1's to wound for Heavy Destroyers?
Can you also do Regular Destroyers at BS4 with the stratagem, representing -1 to hit?
First is already there: Destroyer Stratagem vs Heavy Destroyer MWBD (destroyers win)
Second is: closer but destroyers still win
Third: destroyers still edge out heavies.
Combined with the fact that you pay 7 points for the same body... :/
The only thing that's different is 36'' vs 24'', which is a pretty big deal. I think mixing them is bad since then you remove the one good thing about heavies (staying back 36'')
Can you compare Heavy Destroyers at BS2+ vs Regular Destroyers with the strategem rerolls? Because for 1 CP (or Imotekh or Sautekh) BS2 on 6 Heavy Destroyers is the same as 1 CP for extermination protocols on 6 Regular.
Can you do the same factoring in an additional reroll 1's to wound for Heavy Destroyers?
Can you also do Regular Destroyers at BS4 with the stratagem, representing -1 to hit?
First is already there: Destroyer Stratagem vs Heavy Destroyer MWBD (destroyers win)
Second is: closer but destroyers still win
Third: destroyers still edge out heavies.
Combined with the fact that you pay 7 points for the same body... :/
The only thing that's different is 36'' vs 24'', which is a pretty big deal. I think mixing them is bad since then you remove the one good thing about heavies (staying back 36'')
Remember their bases are big, having a heavy in there means you could be in range of MWBD from a backfield overlord and still have all bodies shoot if the last link of the daisy chain is a heavy destroyer
They really need to release a Silent King supplement, with himself and special bonus rules for Praetorians & Stalkers (plus new Harbinger HQs and the Void Dragon Super-Heavy Shard, obviously) to make them useful again.
Maybe Forge World will oblige us?
Every character is bad for it's points in terms of damage/durability. Only take them for their ablities.
Shooters:
Necron Warriors: take in big blobs for RP. Cheapest bodies. Better than Gauss Immortals against anything bellow 3+ save. More or less the same durability as Immortals.
Immortals: Tesla > Gauss. There. I said it. Gauss only does better in RF range against 4+ or better targets. At non-RF range, even without the 6+ to explode(like at -1 to hit) tesla is better against any target.
Deathmarks: Worse than Gauss Immortals, who are bad to begin with.
Triarch Stalker: bad for it's points. The only saving grace is re-roll 1s to hit for other units. Still not worth it probably. Best option: Particle Shredder
Tomb Blades: Average for everything. Average is bad. Best option: Tesla Carbine
Destroyer: Probably the best thing in the codex. Great against every target. Best anti-tank in the codex with stratagem. Bad durability though (ignoring RP)
Heavy Destroyer: outclassed by destroyer. Destroyer does more damage against every target if both pop stratagem. Only consider if you're taking multiple destroyer units and little to no DDAs Canoptek Spyder: bad damage and durability. Take for abilities only. However it's not a character and AdMech HQs are bad so I think it's just bad.
Monolith: solidly average in everything. Take for abilities only.
Annihilation Barge: Worst unit in the codex.
Doomsday Arc: Best anti-tank after stratagem'd destroyers.
Doom Scythe: Bad damage, OK durablity. Doesn't do anything else. Skip.
Night Scythe: Worse damage, better durability. Consider for the ability only.
Obelisk: average. Situational ability. Skip.
Tesseract Vault: Mortarion's durability + mortal wounds factory = really good.
Mixed:
Triarch Praetorians: trying really to get the top spot for worst unit in the codex but alas Annhilation Barge exists.
Canoptek Wraiths: Hive Tyrants of Necrons. Except worse. That still means they're one of the better units. Take with Particle unless you are taking them to screen.
Melee:
Lychguard: Slow but higher damage wraiths. Take with sword and shield as the damage difference is minimal.
Scarabs: about average damage, pretty good durability for points. Easy kill points though.
Flayed Ones: Other armies have melee units that are so much better it's not even funny. Skip. (ork boyz are about 2-3 times better for exmaple)
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver: only take for the ability. The ability is HUGE so it's great if you use it correctly.
C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer: about average. Meaning it's not good enough.
Transcendent C’tan: hard to evaluate. Nothing amazing on paper though.
Nice writeup, thanks a lot! I’m glad Warriors can compete with Immortals, at least math-wist.
However, it’s always difficult to take abilities like MWBD, -1 to hit, Methodical Destruction, Talent for Anihilation etc. Intro the equation.
Every character is bad for it's points in terms of damage/durability. Only take them for their ablities.
Shooters:
Necron Warriors: take in big blobs for RP. Cheapest bodies. Better than Gauss Immortals against anything bellow 3+ save. More or less the same durability as Immortals.
Immortals: Tesla > Gauss. There. I said it. Gauss only does better in RF range against 4+ or better targets. At non-RF range, even without the 6+ to explode(like at -1 to hit) tesla is better against any target.
Deathmarks: Worse than Gauss Immortals, who are bad to begin with.
Triarch Stalker: bad for it's points. The only saving grace is re-roll 1s to hit for other units. Still not worth it probably. Best option: Particle Shredder
Tomb Blades: Average for everything. Average is bad. Best option: Tesla Carbine
Destroyer: Probably the best thing in the codex. Great against every target. Best anti-tank in the codex with stratagem. Bad durability though (ignoring RP)
Heavy Destroyer: outclassed by destroyer. Destroyer does more damage against every target if both pop stratagem. Only consider if you're taking multiple destroyer units and little to no DDAs Canoptek Spyder: bad damage and durability. Take for abilities only. However it's not a character and AdMech HQs are bad so I think it's just bad.
Monolith: solidly average in everything. Take for abilities only.
Annihilation Barge: Worst unit in the codex.
Doomsday Arc: Best anti-tank after stratagem'd destroyers.
Doom Scythe: Bad damage, OK durablity. Doesn't do anything else. Skip.
Night Scythe: Worse damage, better durability. Consider for the ability only.
Obelisk: average. Situational ability. Skip.
Tesseract Vault: Mortarion's durability + mortal wounds factory = really good.
Mixed:
Triarch Praetorians: trying really to get the top spot for worst unit in the codex but alas Annhilation Barge exists.
Canoptek Wraiths: Hive Tyrants of Necrons. Except worse. That still means they're one of the better units. Take with Particle unless you are taking them to screen.
Melee:
Lychguard: Slow but higher damage wraiths. Take with sword and shield as the damage difference is minimal.
Scarabs: about average damage, pretty good durability for points. Easy kill points though.
Flayed Ones: Other armies have melee units that are so much better it's not even funny. Skip. (ork boyz are about 2-3 times better for exmaple)
C’tan Shard of the Deceiver: only take for the ability. The ability is HUGE so it's great if you use it correctly.
C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer: about average. Meaning it's not good enough.
Transcendent C’tan: hard to evaluate. Nothing amazing on paper though.
I appreciate the mathhammer input, but some of these seem counterintuitive, at least when you start to consider lists and dynastic codes.
For example, putting particle casters on nephrekh Wraiths is a rather large waste of points.
Or if I'm running Mephrit Immortals/Tomb blades which will be definitely be in T1 12" range of enemies, should i still go tesla for flexibility?
There's really too many variables to consider to conclude that we should always use one particular build.
Overlord is about +28pts(87pts cheapest, at 30pts he'd be above average without the ability. Immortals are 170 pts, he improves them by 50%. So 170/2-57=28) of pure value if you cast MWBD on 10 tesla immortals.
Lord needs to be 25pts to be good without the ability. He buffs by 16%, so he needs 76-25=51 pts to compensate. So he needs to buff at least 320pts worth of stuff to be good
Cryptek is a lot harder to evaluate. Vanilla he needs to compensate 50 pts. So about 100 pts of RP stuff. The cloak for 5 pts is a steal though. That's insane.
Named characters just seem meh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "For example, putting particle casters on nephrekh Wraiths is a rather large waste of points. "
Why is that? Can't you shoot them with the stratagem?
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Or if I'm running Mephrit Immortals/Tomb blades which will be definitely be in T1 12" range of enemies, should i still go tesla for flexibility? "
Well you should ALWAYS go tesla. It's just straight up better.
Regarding the Nightbringer, are you assuming that he's wounding on a 2+ or S7? I haven't had the opportunity to test him myself but it seems like the Nightbringer's special rule would come into play against some pretty significant targets in the meta, such as daemon princes and hive tyrants, so it might be worth looking at him specifically against those targets.
Overlord is about +28pts(87pts cheapest, at 30pts he'd be above average without the ability. Immortals are 170 pts, he improves them by 50%. So 170/2-57=28) of pure value if you cast MWBD on 10 tesla immortals.
Lord needs to be 25pts to be good without the ability. He buffs by 16%, so he needs 76-25=51 pts to compensate. So he needs to buff at least 320pts worth of stuff to be good
Cryptek is a lot harder to evaluate. Vanilla he needs to compensate 50 pts. So about 100 pts of RP stuff. The cloak for 5 pts is a steal though. That's insane.
Named characters just seem meh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "For example, putting particle casters on nephrekh Wraiths is a rather large waste of points. "
Why is that? Can't you shoot them with the stratagem?
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Or if I'm running Mephrit Immortals/Tomb blades which will be definitely be in T1 12" range of enemies, should i still go tesla for flexibility? "
Well you should ALWAYS go tesla. It's just straight up better.
Well, the key benefit for Nephrekh Wraiths is that you can advance a guaranteed 6" and charge (with the stratagem). If you advance, you can't shoot pistols. Again, many variables; you would generally want to keep your wraiths locking stuff up with their mobility, i.e. bounce around tying down units in assault. By doing so, your pistols are somewhat wasted.
In the Mephrit case, gauss will outperform against anything that sports a save better than 4+, as long as you can guarantee getting within 12". Yet again, it does depend on the variables of what you have in your list. Do you need up close firepower for 2+/3+ armour targets? Gauss is your thing, not tesla. Do you already have plenty of horde clearing firepower (e.g. a Vault or two), then gauss patches that gap.
Don't get me wrong, your numbers are sound and a real help. But we can't use those in a vacuum to decide on a single go-to build or loadout. Except for maybe destroyers, who are quite clearly a standout.
Mephrit MWBD makes Tesla > Gauss even in RF range against anything not 2+. I think leave the 2+ to the destroyers and Vault powers anyway. Without MWBD Tesla is exacly equal to Gauss against 4+. Gauss is a little better against 3+. Which is a big problem. You have to get them within 12'' and they're STILL just a "little" better against their most optimal targets. Gauss is just not worth the hassle IMO.
Except that -1 to hit modifiers are pretty common in the meta. Once you start accounting for those tesla gets worse and against a -2 to hit tesla is the worse option. My battalion has been:
10x tesla immortal
10x tesla immortal
10x gauss immortal.
Tesla is usually better,but not always and -1 to hit is common enough it must be taken into consideration. I cannot speak yet on tomb blades as ive tried both tesla and gauss and they perform roughly the same. More testing is needed.
90% of -1s are within 12''. So it's either Tesla vs RF Gauss or no proc Tesla vs Normal Gauss. In both cases Tesla wins a lot more often(especially so considering that most things within 12'' will be low armor screens). Which is what you should build for when creating a list: doing better more often than not.
12" range:
Gauss>Tesla Barelly against 4+. With MWBD on both, tesla is better against 4+ and only a bit worse vs 3+
24"
Tesla > Gauss, even with -1 to hit not proccing the Tesla effect. Yes, straight up. Non-RF gauss immortals are AWFUL. Non-RF Gauss warriors are actually better against most targets.
Mephrit:
12" range
Gauss>Tesla against 3+ or better. With MWBD, only 2+ or better.
A silly list designed as an FU to the big FAQs attempt to stop 1st turn alpha strikes:
Spoiler:
Mephrit Battalion:
Sniper CCB Veil Tek (VoD T1)
20x Warriors (VoD T1)
10x Immortals (Tomb World, deploy from mono T1)
10x Immortals (Tomb World, deploy from mono T1)
Deceiver (Grand Illusioned)
10x Lychguard (dimensional corridor to monolith T1)
5x Destroyers (Grand Illusioned)
Monolith (Grand Illusioned)
So if you go first the whole 2000pts drops in the opponents face on turn 1. 7 drops gives you a good chance of getting the +1 to go first (Mono and 2x Immortals are 1 drop). Silly but could be fun once.
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
I saw this a few pages back and thought that it was a good tactic, until I read the Necron Codex FAQ and Methodical Destruction you now have to do an unsaved wound by an attack. So like shooting or melee. Imotekhs Lord of the Storm isn't an attack, just an ability that triggers in the shooting phase. So you can't use the mortal wounds it causes as unsaved wounds to trigger Methodical Destruction.
I just wanted to point it out so people don't get called out for it during a game.
You are trying to treat "attack" as a specific term with it's own definition in the rules. It is not defined in this way by the rules, merely used with it's normal meaning in the English language. This is commonly known as rules lawyering.
Got in another game with the Crons over the past weekend. Here's a summary and my thoughts, for those interested.
It was 1500 points per player, 2v2. Necrons and Tau vs. Tau and Chaos Space Marines. The Chaos player is still relatively new and doesn't fully grasp the tactics of the game, but his Tau partner is pretty knowledgeable.
My list was as follows:
Spoiler:
Battallion Detachment (+5 CP)
Nephrekh Dynasty
Catacomb Command Barge (Warlord: Skin of Living Gold)
- Warscythe
- Lightning Field (Relic)
Cryptek
- Staff of Light
My teammate's list included a Riptide with Ion Accelerator, firewarrior teams, one of which in a devilfish, 2 Broadsides, one with each weapon, Coldstar Commander, The jetfighter (dunno the name), and the Barracuda (forgeworld).
My Tau opponent had a broadside with railgun, 2x 6-man stealth suit units, breachers, ethereal, cadre fireblade camped with firewarriors, Farsight, and some crisis suits
My Chaos buddy had Kharn, Khorne Berserkers, couple squads of Chaos marines with one squad in a rhino, cultists, a helbrute, and a Voidshield generator.
We rolled for the Night Fight battle zone, which meant shooting at range was difficult, and the gametype was the maelstrom mission Contact Lost (you draw more cards each turn based on how many objectives you control). We won first turn, and I used the Translocation Beams to keep the Gauss Immortals in reserves. We scored our first objective that turn, and all of my stuff, my Ghost Ark, some Scarabs, Wraiths, and my Overlord all rushed forward 16-18" because of the dynasty. The Tesla Immortals stayed bunkered down with the cryptek in cover on an objective. Popped the Adaptive Subroutines and the Wraiths pulled off a turn 1 charge, getting first blood against a chaos marine squad and securing an objective.
The enemy kept spending command points to light up my Ghost Ark, but couldn't realistically do much damage to it, and a few turns I popped Quantum Deflection just to be safe, but they whiffed their rolls anyway. The chaos moved up one flank and the Tau on the other, but they couldn't get many objectives complete during the game.
Turn 2 I brought in my deathmarks and almost killed a Cadre Fireblade, but then were just annoying the rest of the game and didn't accomplish much. The Gauss Immortals came down in a ruin on an objective and just camped, which was handy. My other units just zipped around, causing mayhem while my Tau buddy protected our deployment zone. My warlord seemed pretty resilient. He charged into a unit of Khorne Berserkers and almost wiped them out in CC himself before retreating and shooting them. The Wraiths did work. Killed more than their fair share of points I would say: a rhino, chaos space marines, 6x stealthsuits, a broadside. Scarabs were just awesome in general. Cheap, and annoying. Overall I had great board control and we netted a lot of victory points, winning us the game. Nephrekh is a lot of fun.
We're planning on playing again this week, but we may plan an "apoc" level game, because my friend wants to bring his 4x riptides, two Surges, his battlesuits, and all his other stuff. Will do Sautekh again for the big game, but if we play another smaller game I'll prolly give Novokh a good go.
I regret making my lone squad of 10 immortals gauss... I hope they'll do fine against the dark angels I'm going up against anyway. Aggressive is the way to go if you happen to use gauss immortals right?
Imo I like having both, as both gauss and tesla have ideal targets that can compliment each other. The other thing you should remember is that MWBD isn't available for everyone. Taking Tesla because it's much better vs a lot of targets with MWBD doesn't mean you should have 3x10 Teslamortals. Unless you plan on spending 1cp each turn to double your MWBD, or have Immotekh or 2 OL's, I wouldn't say having 20 or 30 Tesla immortals is the best way to go.
If you have easy access to 2 MWBD, then I'd def go for 20 Tesla immortals and 10 Gauss immortals. I only really like going for 20 Warriors if I have the ignore morale trait, which a lot of the times, I don't.
There are also a lot of armies where you will be lucky to get 1 round of 24" shooting. the <12" range usually comes up in games quite a lot. Which is why it's nice to both have a unit that you want to sit back in your deployment zone and shoot at full effect at 24, and also one that you want to move up with the rest of the army to get into the juicy 12 inch range.
For Mephrit, it's a hard one. as -1 ap affects telsa much more than it does gauss, so you could be fine with going all tesla with mephrit.
For Tomb blades, I'd always go for gauss I think. No MWBD + there are a lot of heavy weapon type teams that enjoy a 3+ save and staying in cover, having a -4ap gun (for cover) is very handy. although I'm not 100% sure on the math of Mephrit gauss blades and Mephrit tesla blades. Since Tesla also would get an -2ap to anything that is in cover in rapid fire.
epaemil wrote: I regret making my lone squad of 10 immortals gauss... I hope they'll do fine against the dark angels I'm going up against anyway. Aggressive is the way to go if you happen to use gauss immortals right?
As soon as your targets are in cover, you'd be glad you brought gauss (if you veil them into RF range).
epaemil wrote: I regret making my lone squad of 10 immortals gauss... I hope they'll do fine against the dark angels I'm going up against anyway. Aggressive is the way to go if you happen to use gauss immortals right?
As soon as your targets are in cover, you'd be glad you brought gauss (if you veil them into RF range).
Remember, if he's beaming in terminators in your backfield - knowing that you are all tesla. he could place them wherever he likes without a care in the world. if you have gauss, he has to put them well out side their RF range, or attack them hard.
torblind wrote: Remember, if he's beaming in terminators in your backfield - knowing that you are all tesla. he could place them wherever he likes without a care in the world. if you have gauss, he has to put them well out side their RF range, or attack them hard.
or screen better and let them have to go into chaff?
torblind wrote: Remember, if he's beaming in terminators in your backfield - knowing that you are all tesla. he could place them wherever he likes without a care in the world. if you have gauss, he has to put them well out side their RF range, or attack them hard.
or screen better and let them have to go into chaff?
10 Gauss Imms in rapids will only kill a couple of Terminators anyway. They'll be much more concerned with the destroyers. My D's got the drop on a unit of 10 Scarab Occult once. That was fun.
-Lord of the storm + Methodical Destruction DDAs- This can be a hell of a slap to any vehicle/monster on turn one: D6 Mortal Wounds + 2D6DDA shots hitting on 2's. That's an average of about 18 wounds to anything without an invul.
I saw this a few pages back and thought that it was a good tactic, until I read the Necron Codex FAQ and Methodical Destruction you now have to do an unsaved wound by an attack. So like shooting or melee. Imotekhs Lord of the Storm isn't an attack, just an ability that triggers in the shooting phase. So you can't use the mortal wounds it causes as unsaved wounds to trigger Methodical Destruction.
I just wanted to point it out so people don't get called out for it during a game.
You are trying to treat "attack" as a specific term with it's own definition in the rules. It is not defined in this way by the rules, merely used with it's normal meaning in the English language. This is commonly known as rules lawyering.
I've gotta agree. You're looking way too far into it.... It's rules lawyering, but I don't think your intention was that.
I have a question 're rule interactions post faq (apologies if answered already) -
So I 'embark' a unit onto a Monolith or Scythe.
I use the deceiver to slingshot them up the board
Can i beam the unit out of the gate/scythe in turn 1?
Does the beaming out conditions override the faq restriction?
Or do they prevent the unit from showing up, as it is technically arriving from reserves rather than embarked on a transport?
japehlio wrote: I have a question 're rule interactions post faq (apologies if answered already) -
So I 'embark' a unit onto a Monolith or Scythe.
I use the deceiver to slingshot them up the board
Can i beam the unit out of the gate/scythe in turn 1?
Does the beaming out conditions override the faq restriction?
Or do they prevent the unit from showing up, as it is technically arriving from reserves rather than embarked on a transport?
the latter, it would no longer be allowed in turn 1
TBH, despite the hate, my Gauss Immortals have been excellent every time I run them. Immortals and Warriors are two of the most reliable infantry units in the game.
Are 5 man units of Immortals any good?
I have 15 Of each type, so if I max out one as 10, I just have 5 left - should I bother with them, or do I need to get another 5 to make them usable?
Danny76 wrote: Are 5 man units of Immortals any good?
I have 15 Of each type, so if I max out one as 10, I just have 5 left - should I bother with them, or do I need to get another 5 to make them usable?
Good for hiding on objectives and filling out battalions in 5 man squads. I like using mine for killing, in which case they work best in groups of 10.
I always try to get them to 10, but in a few lists I have 5 teslamortals just because I didn't have the points for more. They are fine as long as you don't put them in the middel of the fight. And the opponent should have more important targets to worry about than 5 immortals. Hence why you want Tesla instead of gauss if you have fewer numbers.
Danny76 wrote: Are 5 man units of Immortals any good?
I have 15 Of each type, so if I max out one as 10, I just have 5 left - should I bother with them, or do I need to get another 5 to make them usable?
They are pretty good if you are playing a low point game and need to fill out of the battalion tax. Could be surprisingly durable if you are lucky with your saves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iGuy91 wrote: TBH, despite the hate, my Gauss Immortals have been excellent every time I run them. Immortals and Warriors are two of the most reliable infantry units in the game.
Yeah, I don't get the dislike for gauss immortals. My opponents hate them as they reduce their armor to nearly nothing.
Tesla can be scary, but you really need to 6s for it to shine.
Yeah, I typically want to run my Immortals 2:1 Tesla to Gauss, with the Tesla making their way up the field and the Gauss being Veil'd up into RF range.
Post FAQ I have them popping up in conjunction with Destroyers & Deathmarks. If I have a Lord as the Veil carrier that gives a significant upswing in lethality to the Gauss Immortals and Deathmarks (both Mephrit, so quite painful contenders in RF range, particularly the DMs, who may be getting Talent for Annihilation'd to maximize their character slaying potential).
Nagerash wrote: I always try to get them to 10, but in a few lists I have 5 teslamortals just because I didn't have the points for more. They are fine as long as you don't put them in the middel of the fight. And the opponent should have more important targets to worry about than 5 immortals. Hence why you want Tesla instead of gauss if you have fewer numbers.
This is exactly how i been feeling with 5 man units, that and creating screening from deep strikes.
Originally used 2 tesla and 1 gauss. but the rest of the army deals with the higher ap targets. so the tesla is better desired for these units too.
Also the roll you plan on using the immortals and the dynasty trait matters too.
Nephrekh trait tessla immortals can move damn quick (11") and still fire at -1 Ap, obviously losing its pop on 6's but that's a 35" threat range, and once you hit 24" you don't have to go further just sit there and attack. I have used this to catch my opponent off guard because no one expects necrons to move that quick, get into cover t1, then sit there and be a serious pain in the butt with all that tessela.
Is it the "best" option, no, but it is an option that can catch someone who is expecting a "best" setup and not playing the objectives just trying to kill you off the board.
Azuza001 wrote: Also the roll you plan on using the immortals and the dynasty trait matters too.
Nephrekh trait tessla immortals can move damn quick (11") and still fire at -1 Ap, obviously losing its pop on 6's but that's a 35" threat range, and once you hit 24" you don't have to go further just sit there and attack. I have used this to catch my opponent off guard because no one expects necrons to move that quick, get into cover t1, then sit there and be a serious pain in the butt with all that tessela.
Is it the "best" option, no, but it is an option that can catch someone who is expecting a "best" setup and not playing the objectives just trying to kill you off the board.
Yep, and MWBD shines even more here. 2 Immortal squads with MWBD can move 12" that turn and fire at their normal BS with exploding 6's! I really want to try that out and see my opponents face when that happens ^^
Azuza001 wrote: Also the roll you plan on using the immortals and the dynasty trait matters too.
Nephrekh trait tessla immortals can move damn quick (11") and still fire at -1 Ap, obviously losing its pop on 6's but that's a 35" threat range, and once you hit 24" you don't have to go further just sit there and attack. I have used this to catch my opponent off guard because no one expects necrons to move that quick, get into cover t1, then sit there and be a serious pain in the butt with all that tessela.
Is it the "best" option, no, but it is an option that can catch someone who is expecting a "best" setup and not playing the objectives just trying to kill you off the board.
Yep, and MWBD shines even more here. 2 Immortal squads with MWBD can move 12" that turn and fire at their normal BS with exploding 6's! I really want to try that out and see my opponents face when that happens ^^
Review updates:
Tomb Blades: UPDATE. Straight up upgrade over non-buffed immortals damage wise(not much but still). Add in the increased mobility leaves Immortals only better with the buffs. Best option: Tesla Carbine
Destroyer: Probably the best thing in the codex. Great against every target. Best anti-tank in the codex with stratagem. Bad durability though (ignoring RP). UPDATE: fall off quite a bit without the stratagem so spamming might not be as good as it seems.
Monolith: UPDATE Just average. Take for abilities only.
Annihilation Barge: UPDATE: Basically straight up worse Tomb Blades. Skip.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Tesla is better in general but I think 2:1 Tesla to Gauss is a good ratio. so a Battalion of 2x10 Tesla and 1x10 Gauss Immortals.
Or 2 units of 10 Tesla immortals and 1 unit of 20 Gauss Warriors.
Sautekh is my favorite dynasty right now... between Imotekh, their auto-wounding relic staff, and their strategem and tesla is hard to beat. Strength 5 Tesla triggering on 4+ without a Triarch Stalker in the list. That a lot of hits.
rvd1ofakind wrote: 90% of -1s are within 12''. So it's either Tesla vs RF Gauss or no proc Tesla vs Normal Gauss. In both cases Tesla wins a lot more often(especially so considering that most things within 12'' will be low armor screens). Which is what you should build for when creating a list: doing better more often than not.
I disagree. -1 is more likely to be outside 12", which makes the Tesla Immortals unable to use their superior range.
That's what I meant. Basically all -1 to hits are if you're 12''+ away. Meaning its either Tesla with no procs and Gauss with no RF (meaning tesla ALWAYS wins) or Tesla with procs and Gauss with RF (meaning Gauss wins at 4+ normally or at 3+ with MWBD).
Here is the issue with that article, he only counts charge phases and the necrons shooting phase, remember you get to take part in two assault phases per round, and in only get to shoot ranged weapons once a round (if your using the pistol, otherwise it's a one and done with the rod). So a more honest calculation would halve the effect of the ranged weapons. Which leaves Praetorians noticeably worse than lychguard, especially when you consider stratagems like blood rights, which lets novokh attack twice in a single phase. Other issues include using only one wound models, which greatly favors praetorians since they have no means to do multiple wounds. He also uses a very narrow target profile (albeit one that is common), against t3, as well as t5 and up lychguard perform much better due to higher strength of attacks.
Long and short GW screwed the pooch on praetorians, they cost too much, the two configurations are horribly lopsided in effectiveness yet cost the same, and by excluding them from the dynasty keyword they cut off any synergy with the rest of the necron army. FLG and ITC have more or less become a GW marketing asset, so seeing a lame article trying to spin the effectiveness of a bad unit is just par for the course at this point.
They should have dropped the whole triarch thing, honestly. What's the point of introducing all of these dynasties that are supposedly to add flavor if they are all supposed to bow to this centralized authority we never actually see?
No really, what is the triarch supposed to be? Where do they fit in? Where are they based? It doesn't make sense. I get they are supposed to be inspired Roman Praetorians, but Necrons aren't the Roman Empire in space. They are warring Egyptian flavored states in space.
Praetorians should have been the elite personal guard of a dynasty's phaeron, not some galactic necron police force that's based...somewhere and just pops up now and then. Lychguard should have just been generic bodyguards who guarded anyone important. Lords and Overlords get Lychguard, the Phaeron gets praets.
Who ever thought of the current necron background shouldn't be allowed to write fluff, because it doesn't make sense and it's not that interesting. Its a complicated solution to a problem that could have easily been solved by introducing more C'tan, making them less powerful (one of the few things the retcon did right) and making them each have their own little army of necron servants that behave according to their master's whims. Having a group of self serving, quarreling gods who want to eat each other to restore a bit of lost power and forces their necron underlings to do whatever they want is a lot more compelling and offers a lot more variations than Not-Egypt-In-Space, and it solves the massive bleeding plot hole of the C'tan stupidly giving control of their slave race to a slave king who still has his free will for some idiotic reason.
Mexican necrons? A C'tan saw a western when messing around with the space time continium and thought it would be funny to give them sombreros. Don Quixote Necrons? A C'tan became a huge Cervantes fan when it visited Earth during the 17th century, and decided to program an Overlord to act like him. Magpie Necrons? A C'tan is a greedy collector and assigned an overlord to curate it's museum, as well as "discover" new acquisitions.
You can do a lot of crazy stuff with a bunch of insane physics warping gods.
I like the idea of having a unit or two that can operate on their own out on a flank or something, but that would require Praets and Stalkers to be good enough to pick, which they are not.
Totally agree with the fluff though, Necron fluff is almost universally boring and unimaginative.
Azuza001 wrote: Also the roll you plan on using the immortals and the dynasty trait matters too.
Nephrekh trait tessla immortals can move damn quick (11") and still fire at -1 Ap, obviously losing its pop on 6's but that's a 35" threat range, and once you hit 24" you don't have to go further just sit there and attack. I have used this to catch my opponent off guard because no one expects necrons to move that quick, get into cover t1, then sit there and be a serious pain in the butt with all that tessela.
Is it the "best" option, no, but it is an option that can catch someone who is expecting a "best" setup and not playing the objectives just trying to kill you off the board.
Yep, and MWBD shines even more here. 2 Immortal squads with MWBD can move 12" that turn and fire at their normal BS with exploding 6's! I really want to try that out and see my opponents face when that happens ^^
The Triarch business gives them someplace to go storywise. It is great flavor, but currently poor for the competitiveness of those units. Maybe the Silent King will arrive and they can fix it in a flavorful way.
Remember, 40k is really three different games. Competitive 40k is the smallest of the 3.
Azuza001 wrote: Also the roll you plan on using the immortals and the dynasty trait matters too.
Nephrekh trait tessla immortals can move damn quick (11") and still fire at -1 Ap, obviously losing its pop on 6's but that's a 35" threat range, and once you hit 24" you don't have to go further just sit there and attack. I have used this to catch my opponent off guard because no one expects necrons to move that quick, get into cover t1, then sit there and be a serious pain in the butt with all that tessela.
Is it the "best" option, no, but it is an option that can catch someone who is expecting a "best" setup and not playing the objectives just trying to kill you off the board.
Yep, and MWBD shines even more here. 2 Immortal squads with MWBD can move 12" that turn and fire at their normal BS with exploding 6's! I really want to try that out and see my opponents face when that happens ^^
Can confirm. This is hilarious to do.
How do nephrekh tesla immortals have -1 Ap?
Sorry I meant - 1 to hit. My phone auto corrected to Ap for some reason. :p weird ass auto predict.
Here is the issue with that article, he only counts charge phases and the necrons shooting phase, remember you get to take part in two assault phases per round, and in only get to shoot ranged weapons once a round (if your using the pistol, otherwise it's a one and done with the rod). So a more honest calculation would halve the effect of the ranged weapons. Which leaves Praetorians noticeably worse than lychguard, especially when you consider stratagems like blood rights, which lets novokh attack twice in a single phase. Other issues include using only one wound models, which greatly favors praetorians since they have no means to do multiple wounds. He also uses a very narrow target profile (albeit one that is common), against t3, as well as t5 and up lychguard perform much better due to higher strength of attacks.
Long and short GW screwed the pooch on praetorians, they cost too much, the two configurations are horribly lopsided in effectiveness yet cost the same, and by excluding them from the dynasty keyword they cut off any synergy with the rest of the necron army. FLG and ITC have more or less become a GW marketing asset, so seeing a lame article trying to spin the effectiveness of a bad unit is just par for the course at this point.
Few things on this:
1. Praetorians are actually more likely to get into combat without the assistance of anything.
2. If you want to include a Strategem for a single Dynasty that's 3 whole CP, Praetorians got their own thing going on with their Strategem.
3. Praetorians shooting with Rods definitely increases damage against those targets, and they do have the ability to just fall back and shoot again if they get into an unfavorable combat.
Azuza001 wrote: Also the roll you plan on using the immortals and the dynasty trait matters too.
Nephrekh trait tessla immortals can move damn quick (11") and still fire at -1 Ap, obviously losing its pop on 6's but that's a 35" threat range, and once you hit 24" you don't have to go further just sit there and attack. I have used this to catch my opponent off guard because no one expects necrons to move that quick, get into cover t1, then sit there and be a serious pain in the butt with all that tessela.
Is it the "best" option, no, but it is an option that can catch someone who is expecting a "best" setup and not playing the objectives just trying to kill you off the board.
Yep, and MWBD shines even more here. 2 Immortal squads with MWBD can move 12" that turn and fire at their normal BS with exploding 6's! I really want to try that out and see my opponents face when that happens ^^
Can confirm. This is hilarious to do.
How do nephrekh tesla immortals have -1 Ap?
Sorry I meant - 1 to hit. My phone auto corrected to Ap for some reason. :p weird ass auto predict.
It's ok , when I read it I was like "did nephrekh borrow some mephrit carbines"
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have dropped the whole triarch thing, honestly.
What's the point of introducing all of these dynasties that are supposedly to add flavor if they are all supposed to bow to this centralized authority we never actually see?
No really, what is the triarch supposed to be? Where do they fit in? Where are they based? It doesn't make sense. I get they are supposed to be inspired Roman Praetorians, but Necrons aren't the Roman Empire in space. They are warring Egyptian flavored states in space.
Praetorians should have been the elite personal guard of a dynasty's phaeron, not some galactic necron police force that's based...somewhere and just pops up now and then. Lychguard should have just been generic bodyguards who guarded anyone important. Lords and Overlords get Lychguard, the Phaeron gets praets.
Who ever thought of the current necron background shouldn't be allowed to write fluff, because it doesn't make sense and it's not that interesting.
Its a complicated solution to a problem that could have easily been solved by introducing more C'tan, making them less powerful (one of the few things the retcon did right) and making them each have their own little army of necron servants that behave according to their master's whims.
Having a group of self serving, quarreling gods who want to eat each other to restore a bit of lost power and forces their necron underlings to do whatever they want is a lot more compelling and offers a lot more variations than Not-Egypt-In-Space, and it solves the massive bleeding plot hole of the C'tan stupidly giving control of their slave race to a slave king who still has his free will for some idiotic reason.
Mexican necrons? A C'tan saw a western when messing around with the space time continium and thought it would be funny to give them sombreros.
Don Quixote Necrons? A C'tan became a huge Cervantes fan when it visited Earth during the 17th century, and decided to program an Overlord to act like him.
Magpie Necrons? A C'tan is a greedy collector and assigned an overlord to curate it's museum, as well as "discover" new acquisitions.
You can do a lot of crazy stuff with a bunch of insane physics warping gods.
Fluff is highly subjective. I personally like the current fluff, but I can see where others might not. You're right about the Triarch from a mechanics standpoint, though. I would have preferred they replace Praetorians with Pariahs. Or replace Lychguard with Pariahs. Whatever they need to do, I want Pariahs back.
Well...my Necron List before is now not longer possible because of the FAQ. I was just spamming DDAs ;-). Now I am looking for a new, reliable list that works. And well...I think I found one:
Spoiler:
Sautekh: Spearhead Detachment - 694 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Orikan the Diviner - - - > 115 Punkte
Sautekh: Outrider Detachment - 1306 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Lord, Hyperphase sword - - - > 76 Punkte
*************** 4 Sturm ***************
9 Tomb Blades, 9 x 2 Tesla carabine, 5 x Shieldvanes, 3 x Nebuloscope - - - > 309 Punkte
6 Destroyers, 1 x Upgrade zum Heavy Destroyer - - - > 307 Punkte
6 Destroyers, 1 x Upgrade zum Heavy Destroyer - - - > 307 Punkte
6 Destroyers, 1 x Upgrade zum Heavy Destroyer - - - > 307 Punkte
Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 2000
Powerlevel der Armee : 109
Kommandopunkte der Armee : 5
The idea is simple: 3 DDAs and 18 Destroyers shoot stuff down. The Bikes will help with this, especially against infantry. Every unit has several hit points, access to a save and so on.
Don't get the wrong idea: This list is mobile. Everything can fly shoot, there is no need for me to stay behind. I will try to get as much out of the buffs as I can, but not if it costs me field control / mission points.
First I thought about taking Mephrit, but I have not the points for the Sniper-DDA. And I like the Sauthek WL-Trait...so why not take Orikan? He has the biggest buff bubble, access to the good Sauthek Strategem and might later on become useful in melee. Or not....I take him for the bigger bubble :-).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have dropped the whole triarch thing, honestly. What's the point of introducing all of these dynasties that are supposedly to add flavor if they are all supposed to bow to this centralized authority we never actually see?
No really, what is the triarch supposed to be? Where do they fit in? Where are they based? It doesn't make sense. I get they are supposed to be inspired Roman Praetorians, but Necrons aren't the Roman Empire in space. They are warring Egyptian flavored states in space.
Praetorians should have been the elite personal guard of a dynasty's phaeron, not some galactic necron police force that's based...somewhere and just pops up now and then. Lychguard should have just been generic bodyguards who guarded anyone important. Lords and Overlords get Lychguard, the Phaeron gets praets.
Who ever thought of the current necron background shouldn't be allowed to write fluff, because it doesn't make sense and it's not that interesting. Its a complicated solution to a problem that could have easily been solved by introducing more C'tan, making them less powerful (one of the few things the retcon did right) and making them each have their own little army of necron servants that behave according to their master's whims. Having a group of self serving, quarreling gods who want to eat each other to restore a bit of lost power and forces their necron underlings to do whatever they want is a lot more compelling and offers a lot more variations than Not-Egypt-In-Space, and it solves the massive bleeding plot hole of the C'tan stupidly giving control of their slave race to a slave king who still has his free will for some idiotic reason.
Mexican necrons? A C'tan saw a western when messing around with the space time continium and thought it would be funny to give them sombreros. Don Quixote Necrons? A C'tan became a huge Cervantes fan when it visited Earth during the 17th century, and decided to program an Overlord to act like him. Magpie Necrons? A C'tan is a greedy collector and assigned an overlord to curate it's museum, as well as "discover" new acquisitions.
You can do a lot of crazy stuff with a bunch of insane physics warping gods.
Fluff is highly subjective. I personally like the current fluff, but I can see where others might not. You're right about the Triarch from a mechanics standpoint, though. I would have preferred they replace Praetorians with Pariahs. Or replace Lychguard with Pariahs. Whatever they need to do, I want Pariahs back.
Or let Praetorians be part of a dynasty instead of being some soopa speshul galatik poleese force. I really don't like the Triarch conceptually. Pariahs would be nice though.
What does a good Vault list look like at 2000 points? Here's something I just threw together trying to use units that seemed good to me, a Battalion with two Vaults:
Depends how much you want to commit to making the Vaults your one trick imo.
2 Vaults seem to be in an awkward spot where you don't have enough of an army around them to do much anyway, though having some bodies around to sit on objectives is nice.
For 1 less CP you can get 3 Vaults, but they do become your only real threat.
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
Tesseract Vault [25 PL, 496pts]: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
First, I think 2 Vaults is not great. Either go whole hog on 3 (at which point you win or lose every game at list build), or just one with support.
Secondly, if you're taking Vaults + Infantry, I think it's better to have MSU infantry than big blobs. 20 Warriors is hard to shift, but 2x10 is still pretty sturdy and can be on two objectives behind two Vaults.
Melionodr wrote: Well...my Necron List before is now not longer possible because of the FAQ. I was just spamming DDAs ;-). Now I am looking for a new, reliable list that works. And well...I think I found one:
Spoiler:
Sautekh: Spearhead Detachment - 694 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Orikan the Diviner - - - > 115 Punkte
Sautekh: Outrider Detachment - 1306 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Lord, Hyperphase sword - - - > 76 Punkte
*************** 4 Sturm ***************
9 Tomb Blades, 9 x 2 Tesla carabine, 5 x Shieldvanes, 3 x Nebuloscope - - - > 309 Punkte
6 Destroyers, 1 x Upgrade zum Heavy Destroyer - - - > 307 Punkte
6 Destroyers, 1 x Upgrade zum Heavy Destroyer - - - > 307 Punkte
6 Destroyers, 1 x Upgrade zum Heavy Destroyer - - - > 307 Punkte
Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 2000
Powerlevel der Armee : 109
Kommandopunkte der Armee : 5
The idea is simple: 3 DDAs and 18 Destroyers shoot stuff down. The Bikes will help with this, especially against infantry. Every unit has several hit points, access to a save and so on.
Don't get the wrong idea: This list is mobile. Everything can fly shoot, there is no need for me to stay behind. I will try to get as much out of the buffs as I can, but not if it costs me field control / mission points.
First I thought about taking Mephrit, but I have not the points for the Sniper-DDA. And I like the Sauthek WL-Trait...so why not take Orikan? He has the biggest buff bubble, access to the good Sauthek Strategem and might later on become useful in melee. Or not....I take him for the bigger bubble :-).
Any ways you see to make this list even better?
You can change lord for orikan and take another dynasty for arks. And take cloacktek to support arks.
Requizen wrote: First, I think 2 Vaults is not great. Either go whole hog on 3 (at which point you win or lose every game at list build), or just one with support.
Secondly, if you're taking Vaults + Infantry, I think it's better to have MSU infantry than big blobs. 20 Warriors is hard to shift, but 2x10 is still pretty sturdy and can be on two objectives behind two Vaults.
Yeah, I'm trying to split the difference there with two. I agree that three Vaults is going to be very boom/bust and probably not a tournament winning list because of that, so I wanted to pick people's brains on how effective a 2 Vault list would be as opposed to running a more balanced Deceiver list that just features a Vault. There's still some objective grabbing here (Scarabs) but it's not great and the support still isn't ideal.
epaemil wrote: So what stats and abilities would the Silent King have? Would be awesome if he was Primarch-level in power.
Interesting question. I imagine gamewise he should be on the power level of Roboute G. of the ultramarines, only have a strong necron flavor to his buffs and abilities.
One Vault supports your list, 2 or more basically become your list, and I just feel like if you are going for more than 1, you should just embrace the gimmick, and take 3, lol.
Thoughts on this list. I would take mephrit. The other option is to swap in Imotek, drop the overlord, and make the warriors a 20 and 13 man squad. I don't have any of the heavy models right now except for 3 Canoptek spyders otherwise I would try and get a DDA in, but alas this is what I have come up with.
Danny76 wrote: Are 5 man units of Immortals any good?
I have 15 Of each type, so if I max out one as 10, I just have 5 left - should I bother with them, or do I need to get another 5 to make them usable?
Yes. I use 6X5 in a brigade. People tend to overshoot / undershoot, so either they wipe out one unit at a time too slowly or they leave one immortal alive here and there. Or you get charged by HUGE swarm but they only kill a unit of 5. You can boost tesla with the sautekh stratagem.
I know the temptation of having 2X10 immo with double MWBD and may be another boost, but in most of my games what happened is a whole or two whole unit got butchered T1.
Anyway, played a little tournament at my FLGS. 3 games. 1 against orks, 1 against Eldar, 1 against Grey Knights 1000 points
List was the following -
Crytek with staff of light + chrono
Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab casket thing + warscythe (warlord)
5 immortals with gauss 5 immortals with gauss 5 immortals with telsa
3 scarabs 3 scarabs 3 destroyers
5 shieldguard
2 heavy destroyers
Novokh in all cases, warlord had Immortal Pride
What I went up against (roughly, not sure on numbers) -
Eldar Player -
Spoiler:
Spirit Seer Farseer
something like 10 scorpions Something like 10 dark reapers Something like 10 banshees something like 10 fire dragons Alatoic trait (-1 to hit I think)
Won against that. Destroyers somehow survived barrage from reapers, Fire dragons got wiped out, banshees did nothing because he multi-charged the scarabs and immortals and didn't focus attacks scorpions were useless. Destroyers chewed everything up, including the entrenched reapers after using solar pulse, and Lychguard never made it into combat. Because they are slow. Destroyer lord died, failed the nanoscarab then came back with the stratagem. My opponent was not amused He had that ghost helm thing though that deals mortal wounds and stop death, so its all fair. Overall huge necron victory
Ork list
Spoiler:
something like 10 bikes + nob 3 kans 1 dred 1 big mek 1 big gun 1 buggy 3 copters 1 weird boy
this one was a little more brutal. Bikes came in, shot a squad of immortals off the table. I shot back and charged with destroyers. Killed them all. Novokh rerolls are handy. Lychguard did get into combat this time and killed the psyker and the dredd Heavy Destroyers did jack and gak except get charged by the dredd. Because I am bad at kiting. Destroyers used that extermination protocol and killed a couple of cans. My rolling for damage was pretty bad though. It totally could have wiped all 3. Scarab bomb tore off a couple of wounds the buggy after it charged the bugs in combat. Bugs took off another wound (rerolls ftw), then disengaged. The buggy got blown up by gauss immortals. Ork player tried threatening immortals again with copters. That stratagem that increases strength by 1 is useful. Destroyers still the MvP. Necrons won again
Beta rules stopping DS outside of deployment zone were not used. Dreadknight and 1 strike squad in my flank because the deployment was that quarter thing. Then he dropped a strikesquad in the middle of the table where there's cover. First turn he dumped basically everything into lychguard. They somehow lived. The dispersion shield strat did nothing. Destroyers killed interceptors that were rapidly moving across the table. Big mistake, should have killed the purgators. Destroyers got deleted the turn after by psilencers. Turns out those guns are stupidly good and need a nerf, as there's no reason to take psicannons. Strikesquad on my flank tried pushing through the screen of scarabs and immortals on turn 2. They took a few casualties turn 1, took more casualties from overwatch and scarab bomb + rerolls from novokh. Somehow got wiped out after 2 turns. Strike squad in the middle of the table also got killed after 2 turns after getting cover removed by solar pulse and the immortals lighting them up. Heavy destroyers still useless. Destroyer Lord killed by lascannon after his squad of destroyers died. Nanoscarabs were asleep and I was out of CP. Psilencers continued chewing up necrons, and with only 3 lychguard, 2 scarabs, 3 immortals and a squad of immortals left, conceded.
Anyway, observations
- Scarab bomb is hilarious - Heavy destroyers are useless. Don't waste a support slot on them. If you want to take them, just take a destroyer squad with 1, so they actually have some durability and it will be easier to buff them. - Shield Lychguard can be dangerous and surprisingly tough, you just have to find a way to get them in CC. Also the shield stratagem is unreliable for 2 CP. Great for making you opponent worry though. - destroyers are filthy good. Probably the most dangerous unit in the army. It also means they will be targeting first, so protect them by hiding them or using a distraction. Like suicide scarabs. - Chronometron is useless. Never used the invul in all 3 games because the AoE. Take the canoptek cloak instead so the cryptek can quickly move to where it needs to be. - The anti-psi from the warlord trait is unreliable. Not worth picking it for that. - Novokh is actually pretty good, you just need to be aggressive to make the most of it. Destroyers can actually kill stuff with it, especially after shooting the crap out of it. - Don't trust the nanoscarab casket, unless you have CP to spare. Both times I used it failed. In theory if you burn 2 CP you have something like 87% chance of avoiding death (100 - (50% chance of failure from relic * 50% chance of failure from reroll strategem, * 50% chance of failure from stratagem) = 87% chance of success), but that's quite an investment, and its one use only. - Destroyer Lord + novokh is pretty killy. So many rerolls. - Extermination Protocols are nasty for 1 CP. - Solar Pulse is really useful for dealing with entrenched 3+ saves. - The no DS except in own zone on turn one beta rule is fantastic. Screw the whiners. Lets see if they like a dreadknight and a 10 man squad of marines who can churn out 40 stormbolter shots in a single phase in their face.
What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
1. Praetorians are actually more likely to get into combat without the assistance of anything.
2. If you want to include a Strategem for a single Dynasty that's 3 whole CP, Praetorians got their own thing going on with their Strategem.
3. Praetorians shooting with Rods definitely increases damage against those targets, and they do have the ability to just fall back and shoot again if they get into an unfavorable combat.
1.) Certainly true but kind of irrelevant because you'll never field your army with only lychguard or prats, and necrons now have lots of ways to get lychguard into combat.
2.) that stratagem only works in shooting, which for both rod and void blade prats isn't their main purpose
3.) Praetorians are less vulnerable to tarpitting but are less capable overall. Even if they get out of a combat, they are not exactly a fearsome shooting unit, 1 shot a round at S5 ap -3 is decidedly meh for a unit as expensive as they are.
All of those points are ignoring the fact that Lychguard will either be twice as tough as praetorians, or way more offensively capable, It's not even a fair comparison.
As for the fluff, I like the Praetorians as it's a call back to how strongly hierarchical the necrons are, it shows that the Dynasties are part of a larger society, with its own laws and obligations. The problem is it's not really taken far enough, The fluff implies that even Phaerons are on their best behaviour around the Praetorians, but only because of their fearsome reputations. Without Szarekh the silent king, the Praetorians don't have any authority. That whole missing piece makes their fluff (and necron fluff in general) feel incomplete, instead of the silent king at the top of the pyramid, the most influential necron right now is Imotekh the Stormlord, who was a Nemesor who uspered the position of Phaeron.
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
It would be nice if it weren't so expensive. Remember that its an expensive model. Adding an expensive weapon that only has a slight chance of inflicting a mortal wound isn't going to help.
Lychguard seem better than Praets, but I struggle to find a spot in any list I make for Lychguard, let alone a unit worse than them. I like the idea of Praets, but not enough that I would take them over another, better unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
The most I would add to Wraiths are the Particle Casters, since 4 points for a shot or 2 isn't that bad. 9 points for coils and 14 points for the beamer just seem too much on an already pricey bullet magnet.
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
It's a really good idea in theory, but the main problem is that it makes the already expensive Wraiths even more expensive. If you have an extra 84 point left over it would be nice, but you also have to ask if those points would be better spent somewhere else. Until they bring down the cost of the Beamers or the Wraiths themselves, I don't think it's worth it. All in all, X Scarab models will probably be more valuable over the course of the battle than X Transdimensional Beamers.
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
The most I would add to Wraiths are the Particle Casters, since 4 points for a shot or 2 isn't that bad. 9 points for coils and 10 points for the beamer just seem too much on an already pricey bullet magnet.
I think you are looking at the Particle Beamers. Transdimensional Beamers are 14 points, which if you thought 10 points was too expensive.... lol
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
It's a really good idea in theory, but the main problem is that it makes the already expensive Wraiths even more expensive. If you have an extra 84 point left over it would be nice, but you also have to ask if those points would be better spent somewhere else. Until they bring down the cost of the Beamers or the Wraiths themselves, I don't think it's worth it. All in all, X Scarab models will probably be more valuable over the course of the battle than X Transdimensional Beamers.
It's not even that good in theory, it'll plunk another 2-3 wounds of a target, but when they move in in CC they are putting 10-12 wounds on that target anyway. If you know in advance that you need that extra damage, then ok, but 84 points of something else probably does that better.
If they get -1 to hit, non-Sautekh or advances with Sautekh, its even worse.
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
It's a really good idea in theory, but the main problem is that it makes the already expensive Wraiths even more expensive. If you have an extra 84 point left over it would be nice, but you also have to ask if those points would be better spent somewhere else. Until they bring down the cost of the Beamers or the Wraiths themselves, I don't think it's worth it. All in all, X Scarab models will probably be more valuable over the course of the battle than X Transdimensional Beamers.
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
The most I would add to Wraiths are the Particle Casters, since 4 points for a shot or 2 isn't that bad. 9 points for coils and 10 points for the beamer just seem too much on an already pricey bullet magnet.
I think you are looking at the Particle Beamers. Transdimensional Beamers are 14 points, which if you thought 10 points was too expensive.... lol
I'm not even sure the casters are worth it, as that would kick up the wraiths to nearly 60 points, and all for a single S6 hit with no AP on a fast unit that already has a bunch of S6 AP-1 attacks
Finally got my T.Vault and 2 Destroyer Squadrons ordered. Had to get them in the UK and then use a bounce shipping service to get it sent across the pond. Still ended up being cheaper than buying stateside even if they were in stock, just extra hoops to go through. Now I'm excited though.
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
It's a really good idea in theory, but the main problem is that it makes the already expensive Wraiths even more expensive. If you have an extra 84 point left over it would be nice, but you also have to ask if those points would be better spent somewhere else. Until they bring down the cost of the Beamers or the Wraiths themselves, I don't think it's worth it. All in all, X Scarab models will probably be more valuable over the course of the battle than X Transdimensional Beamers.
It's not even that good in theory, it'll plunk another 2-3 wounds of a target, but when they move in in CC they are putting 10-12 wounds on that target anyway. If you know in advance that you need that extra damage, then ok, but 84 points of something else probably does that better.
If they get -1 to hit, non-Sautekh or advances with Sautekh, its even worse.
Actually a full squad shooting Transdimensional Beamers would average out 4.67 slain models against MEQ. That full squad of Wraiths in CC would only result 5.33 slain models against MEQ. They end up dealing 10-12 wounds, but that doesn't matter against 1 wound models. So in theory, Transdimensional Beamers nearly double the effectiveness of Wraiths against MEQ. It's still too expensive imo, but it's still an effective strategy if your opponent has a large amount of MEQ.
MEQ aren't the ideal target for Wraiths, but if you want them to be able to deal with MEQ as well, then Transdimensional Beamers are great.
hoodwizard wrote: What do you guys think about sautekh wraiths with transdimensional beamers? I like adding mortal wound potential and seems like a good way to take advantage of the ability to shoot and charge after falling back.
It's a really good idea in theory, but the main problem is that it makes the already expensive Wraiths even more expensive. If you have an extra 84 point left over it would be nice, but you also have to ask if those points would be better spent somewhere else. Until they bring down the cost of the Beamers or the Wraiths themselves, I don't think it's worth it. All in all, X Scarab models will probably be more valuable over the course of the battle than X Transdimensional Beamers.
It's not even that good in theory, it'll plunk another 2-3 wounds of a target, but when they move in in CC they are putting 10-12 wounds on that target anyway. If you know in advance that you need that extra damage, then ok, but 84 points of something else probably does that better.
If they get -1 to hit, non-Sautekh or advances with Sautekh, its even worse.
Actually a full squad shooting Transdimensional Beamers would average out 4.67 slain models against MEQ. That full squad of Wraiths in CC would only result 5.33 slain models against MEQ. They end up dealing 10-12 wounds, but that doesn't matter against 1 wound models. So in theory, Transdimensional Beamers nearly double the effectiveness of Wraiths against MEQ. It's still too expensive imo, but it's still an effective strategy if your opponent has a large amount of MEQ.
MEQ aren't the ideal target for Wraiths, but if you want them to be able to deal with MEQ as well, then Transdimensional Beamers are great.
You're right, I was punching the wrong weapons stats. Something to consider if you're doing Sautekh against power armour I guess.
ski107 wrote: Finally got my T.Vault and 2 Destroyer Squadrons ordered. Had to get them in the UK and then use a bounce shipping service to get it sent across the pond. Still ended up being cheaper than buying stateside even if they were in stock, just extra hoops to go through. Now I'm excited though.
How did you do that? I definitely want to know if it can save me some money to put towards more models lol
Oh, just an interesting tidbit I heard on a podcast: a two Vault + Deceiver battalion list finished near the top of the Broadside Bash. Not entirely clear what the list is because I don't have a BCP subscription and the host wasn't very familiar with Necrons, but probably Vaults+Warriors and maybe Destroyers or Wraiths..
I still don't understand rvd's math regarding lychguard... It seems like scytheguard should have a pretty massive advantage in efficiency versus REQ's over swordguard.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have dropped the whole triarch thing, honestly.
What's the point of introducing all of these dynasties that are supposedly to add flavor if they are all supposed to bow to this centralized authority we never actually see?
No really, what is the triarch supposed to be? Where do they fit in? Where are they based? It doesn't make sense. I get they are supposed to be inspired Roman Praetorians, but Necrons aren't the Roman Empire in space. They are warring Egyptian flavored states in space.
Praetorians should have been the elite personal guard of a dynasty's phaeron, not some galactic necron police force that's based...somewhere and just pops up now and then. Lychguard should have just been generic bodyguards who guarded anyone important. Lords and Overlords get Lychguard, the Phaeron gets praets.
Who ever thought of the current necron background shouldn't be allowed to write fluff, because it doesn't make sense and it's not that interesting.
Its a complicated solution to a problem that could have easily been solved by introducing more C'tan, making them less powerful (one of the few things the retcon did right) and making them each have their own little army of necron servants that behave according to their master's whims.
Having a group of self serving, quarreling gods who want to eat each other to restore a bit of lost power and forces their necron underlings to do whatever they want is a lot more compelling and offers a lot more variations than Not-Egypt-In-Space, and it solves the massive bleeding plot hole of the C'tan stupidly giving control of their slave race to a slave king who still has his free will for some idiotic reason.
Mexican necrons? A C'tan saw a western when messing around with the space time continium and thought it would be funny to give them sombreros.
Don Quixote Necrons? A C'tan became a huge Cervantes fan when it visited Earth during the 17th century, and decided to program an Overlord to act like him.
Magpie Necrons? A C'tan is a greedy collector and assigned an overlord to curate it's museum, as well as "discover" new acquisitions.
You can do a lot of crazy stuff with a bunch of insane physics warping gods.
I don't think you read all of the fluff correctly, because that's not how it works.
I like the fact that the Necrons have much more personality now, than they ever did when they were just mindless drones of all powerfull stargods is a big improvement imo. They have their own desires, interests and goals now. They are much more liek the people they always were, but now in immortal metal bodies. Just with varying degrees of recollection. And there is no plothole. The C'tan didn't give control away. They were overthrown. The C'tan were never in direct control like gods playing with a joystick. They just believed themselves invulnerable, which was 99% true. They just allowed the Necrontyr slightly too much technology. The Triarch took their chance after winning the war and Shattered the C'tan into the shards we have now. In this war 2 of the 3 Phaerons that made up the Triarch were killed, leaving only the Silent King. And he is traveling around the universe incognito mostly going after his own goals of preparing for the Tyranids.
The Triarch Praetorians and Stalkers are therefor a remnants of a long time ago and are basically just (powerfull) spies of the Silent King to see if the different Dynasties aren't doing completely stupid sh*t. So it makes complete sense that they don't benefit from the codes, since they don't belong to any Dynasty. This doesn't mean I wouldn't like some sort of interaction by including a new special character. Maybe a captain of the Praetorians or something. So to at least give them some interaction (appart from Anrakyr and the Illuminor)
Not really tactics related, sorry for that, but just wanted to clear that up.
epaemil wrote: So what stats and abilities would the Silent King have? Would be awesome if he was Primarch-level in power.
Well, the same people who write the rules said the Eldar Phoenix Lords were as powerful as primarchs, so there's that...
Spoiler:
In the fluff it's said that his body is very different from the rest of the Necrons. Not a metal skelletal frame, but much more flowing and humanoid. So I'm very curious how they will implement this.
Since he's basically a Phaeron, I suspect his statline to be similar to Immotekh. He'll probably have a better MWBD (like +1 to advance, charge, hit and wound?) which can be used twice on any necron. No specific dynasty restriction.
I can also see him having this own special Command Barge, as if the Silent King will walk anywhere...
Probably a secondary ability buffing nearby Praetorian units. Not sure what kind of buff would be best for them. reroll 1 to hit/wound? Or maybe a +1 to Damage, although that's probably way too powerfull.
They could also give him a 0-1 Special unit of Praetorian Bodyguard who might be slightly more expensive (or not) but with a build in better statline. I think he would deserve a secondary Named Character being his Bodyguard/Varguard/Captain of the Guard/Praetorian Alpha?
I could also see him having a more(most?) powerfull version of the Staff of light. Since Immotekh basically has a more powerfull version of the Staff of light, I'd guess Szarekh would have a better version of this.
I'd have no idea how to balance all this though or if this is just way too powerfull. Even though I'd like to try that character out in normal games, I wouldn't mind if they would restrict him to Apocalypse games, or maybe at least 2000p. games.
That's just my thoughts on what I would expect they could do with the character in this ruleset. Will be a LONG while though. I can't really see them giving us the Silent King (or any other non-imperial Primarchesque characters) before they have milked them first.
I don't think you read all of the fluff correctly, because that's not how it works.
I like the fact that the Necrons have much more personality now, than they ever did when they were just mindless drones of all powerfull stargods is a big improvement imo. They have their own desires, interests and goals now. They are much more liek the people they always were, but now in immortal metal bodies. Just with varying degrees of recollection.
Which lessens the tragedy of them being turned into monsters. The fact they still act normal and are somewhat human diminishes the aspect of them losing their humanity (necrontyity?) and becoming mechanical abominations. They aren't machines, just metal people. Immortals even respond to their superiors verbally. Why? They are machines. The data should be transferred instantly, not through verbal cues which could be interrupted or misheard. I might as well play Admech.
Necrons were the slaves, C'tan were the masters. You wanted personality? That's what C'tan were for. Its just they needed more development, not throw everything in the trash.
Its like vampires and their undead minions. You don't expect the zombies to start striking up a conversation with their food. That's what the vampires do. That's what the C'tan did. In the third ed codex the Deceiver had a chat with a Callidus assassin before supposedly murdering her.
Nagerash wrote: And there is no plothole. The C'tan didn't give control away. They were overthrown. The C'tan were never in direct control like gods playing with a joystick. They just believed themselves invulnerable, which was 99% true.
No, it is a plothole. The C'tan are supposed to be intelligent and manipulative beings. Why would they ever give their slaves a means to gain freedom? Because that's what the Silent King was. A puppet who sold his and his people's souls to a bunch of star-vampires. Yeah, they are arrogant, but arrogant doesn't mean stupid. There should have been a "do not betray us and obey us unconditionally" clause in the command protocol
And they did give control away. Instead of keeping the command protocols for themselves they arranged it so that the Silent King had them. Why? They designed the bio-transference process, the silent king got the command protocols from the bio-transference process, ergo the C'tan gave the Silent King the command protocols.
Letting the necrons shatter the C'tan also didn't acknowledge the purpose of the Blackstone fortresses. You know, those extremely ancient warp based weapons created by the Eldar to kill C'tan? Those should have been what shattered the C'tan, not the crons. Had that happened, then the necrons gaining independence would have been a logical outcome.
epaemil wrote: So what stats and abilities would the Silent King have? Would be awesome if he was Primarch-level in power.
Well, the same people who write the rules said the Eldar Phoenix Lords were as powerful as primarchs, so there's that...
In the fluff it's said that his body is very different from the rest of the Necrons. Not a metal skelletal frame, but much more flowing and humanoid. So I'm very curious how they will implement this.
Since he's basically a Phaeron, I suspect his statline to be similar to Immotekh. He'll probably have a better MWBD (like +1 to advance, charge, hit and wound?) which can be used twice on any necron. No specific dynasty restriction.
I can also see him having this own special Command Barge, as if the Silent King will walk anywhere...
Probably a secondary ability buffing nearby Praetorian units. Not sure what kind of buff would be best for them. reroll 1 to hit/wound? Or maybe a +1 to Damage, although that's probably way too powerfull.
They could also give him a 0-1 Special unit of Praetorian Bodyguard who might be slightly more expensive (or not) but with a build in better statline. I think he would deserve a secondary Named Character being his Bodyguard/Varguard/Captain of the Guard/Praetorian Alpha?
I could also see him having a more(most?) powerfull version of the Staff of light. Since Immotekh basically has a more powerfull version of the Staff of light, I'd guess Szarekh would have a better version of this.
He'll probably have a dynasty trait that affects triarch stalkers as well as any other unit. Maybe an AoE MWBD as well. Because he's the Silent King, dammit. Only ordering one squad around is beneath him.
Would he have a staff of light? Why not a really powerful warscythe? Or a warscythe with a built in staff of light?
Arachnofiend wrote: I still don't understand rvd's math regarding lychguard... It seems like scytheguard should have a pretty massive advantage in efficiency versus REQ's over swordguard.
/
You mean teq?
And yeah, my bad. Didn't input the stats properly in that one. The difference IS quite huge. Probably take the warscythe then since there's no real character protection required.
I can't believe how many times this needs to be repeated,
This is the tactics thread.
TACTICS. Minor fluff discussion might pop up every so often, but much like rules debates, long drawn out comment chains going over what changes Matt Ward wrought upon us, its evolution to the current iteration, and wishlisting what we to see done in the future is better left on other dakka forums (eg. 40k General discussion).
If you ABSOLUTELY must discuss it here, could you at least do like the list critiquing & battle reports and put it under a spoiler? Like so,
Nagerash wrote: I could also see him having a more(most?) powerfull version of the Staff of light. Since Immotekh basically has a more powerfull version of the Staff of light, I'd guess Szarekh would have a better version of this.
Would he have a staff of light? Why not a really powerful warscythe? Or a warscythe with a built in staff of light?
If anything I'd say he'd need a better version of the Rod Of Covenant, seeing as how that's the most iconic of the Praetorians weapons. Maybe mount him on some sort of cross between the Command Barge and the Triarch Stalker? (Supreme Command Ark, etc.)
Arachnofiend wrote: I still don't understand rvd's math regarding lychguard... It seems like scytheguard should have a pretty massive advantage in efficiency versus REQ's over swordguard.
/
You mean teq?
And yeah, my bad. Didn't input the stats properly in that one. The difference IS quite huge. Probably take the warscythe then since there's no real character protection required.
No, I meant Rhino Equivalents, though the same logic applies against terminators of course. My efforts to make lychguard work largely revolve around using them as the secondary anti-armor after my unit of destroyers; I play Nephrekh and want to move quickly to control the middle of the board, so tying myself down in my deployment zone with doomsday arks seems contrary to my goals. This is all theory still unfortunately, the two people I've played against so far post-codex are relatively weak players I would have beaten even with a much less optimized list. >.>
meleti wrote: Oh, just an interesting tidbit I heard on a podcast: a two Vault + Deceiver battalion list finished near the top of the Broadside Bash. Not entirely clear what the list is because I don't have a BCP subscription and the host wasn't very familiar with Necrons, but probably Vaults+Warriors and maybe Destroyers or Wraiths..
This is not correct. I was at Broadside Bash and repping necrons as well. There were 4 Necron lists, and I got to talk to 2 of the 3 other 'cron players there (although did not talk to the 2xTV guy). It's possible somebody mis-entered their army, but they also had a TO checking armies so it seems unlikely.
The top necron list was at 19 (of 68) and was a Mephrit Battalion + Novokh Outrider + Sautekh Aux warlord.
All other Necron lists ended in the bottom half of placings, including myself. Sorry to disappoint my fellow space tomb king bros.
meleti wrote: Oh, just an interesting tidbit I heard on a podcast: a two Vault + Deceiver battalion list finished near the top of the Broadside Bash. Not entirely clear what the list is because I don't have a BCP subscription and the host wasn't very familiar with Necrons, but probably Vaults+Warriors and maybe Destroyers or Wraiths..
This is not correct. I was at Broadside Bash and repping necrons as well. There were 4 Necron lists, and I got to talk to 2 of the 3 other 'cron players there (although did not talk to the 2xTV guy). It's possible somebody mis-entered their army, but they also had a TO checking armies so it seems unlikely.
The top necron list was at 19 (of 68) and was a Mephrit Battalion + Novokh Outrider + Sautekh Aux warlord.
All other Necron lists ended in the bottom half of placings, including myself. Sorry to disappoint my fellow space tomb king bros.
meleti wrote: Oh, just an interesting tidbit I heard on a podcast: a two Vault + Deceiver battalion list finished near the top of the Broadside Bash. Not entirely clear what the list is because I don't have a BCP subscription and the host wasn't very familiar with Necrons, but probably Vaults+Warriors and maybe Destroyers or Wraiths..
This is not correct. I was at Broadside Bash and repping necrons as well. There were 4 Necron lists, and I got to talk to 2 of the 3 other 'cron players there (although did not talk to the 2xTV guy). It's possible somebody mis-entered their army, but they also had a TO checking armies so it seems unlikely.
The top necron list was at 19 (of 68) and was a Mephrit Battalion + Novokh Outrider + Sautekh Aux warlord.
All other Necron lists ended in the bottom half of placings, including myself. Sorry to disappoint my fellow space tomb king bros.
Now that you mention it, a Sautekh Aux Warlord doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. Do you know what HQ it was specifically?
skoffs wrote: I can't believe how many times this needs to be repeated,
This is the tactics thread.
TACTICS. Minor fluff discussion might pop up every so often, but much like rules debates, long drawn out comment chains going over what changes Matt Ward wrought upon us, its evolution to the current iteration, and wishlisting what we to see done in the future is better left on other dakka forums (eg. 40k General discussion).
If you ABSOLUTELY must discuss it here, could you at least do like the list critiquing & battle reports and put it under a spoiler? Like so,
Nagerash wrote: I could also see him having a more(most?) powerfull version of the Staff of light. Since Immotekh basically has a more powerfull version of the Staff of light, I'd guess Szarekh would have a better version of this.
Would he have a staff of light? Why not a really powerful warscythe? Or a warscythe with a built in staff of light?
If anything I'd say he'd need a better version of the Rod Of Covenant, seeing as how that's the most iconic of the Praetorians weapons. Maybe mount him on some sort of cross between the Command Barge and the Triarch Stalker? (Supreme Command Ark, etc.)
You're right. Fixed it .
Spoiler:
I see the Rod of Covenant more like a police baton. The Staff of light is a badge of office showing the superior status of the people who wield them. That's why I think the Ultimate Staff of Light is probably more appropriate. They might even go the Pariah route en just give him a Warscythe with build in Staff of light/gauss blaster.
WIth Aux Warlord, I would expect it to be the Stormlord for the VP refunds.
I know that a non-names HQ can get that trait, but unless you want that Overlord to be a 100~ points VP factory and nothing else, it would make more sense using Imotehk
meleti wrote: Oh, just an interesting tidbit I heard on a podcast: a two Vault + Deceiver battalion list finished near the top of the Broadside Bash. Not entirely clear what the list is because I don't have a BCP subscription and the host wasn't very familiar with Necrons, but probably Vaults+Warriors and maybe Destroyers or Wraiths..
This is not correct. I was at Broadside Bash and repping necrons as well. There were 4 Necron lists, and I got to talk to 2 of the 3 other 'cron players there (although did not talk to the 2xTV guy). It's possible somebody mis-entered their army, but they also had a TO checking armies so it seems unlikely.
The top necron list was at 19 (of 68) and was a Mephrit Battalion + Novokh Outrider + Sautekh Aux warlord.
All other Necron lists ended in the bottom half of placings, including myself. Sorry to disappoint my fellow space tomb king bros.
Now that you mention it, a Sautekh Aux Warlord doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. Do you know what HQ it was specifically?
If you just want a dude to sit there, a Cloaktek would probably be the best bet.
I suppose I should also give my lessons learned from Broadside Bash.
I ran Mephrit Battalion + Novokh Outrider. 600 points of 2x6 Destroyers, 550 points of Wraiths, and Anrakyr in the Novokh detachment so he could abandon them and do overlord things with my Destroyers. My list was very similar to the top Necron list (except I invested more in Destroyers) so it was more piloting issues than list issues.
Lessons
- Destroyers were my MVPs by far. They earned back their points every game, took punishment, and kept giving back. I would move to 3x6 in a heartbeat.
- Voltaic Staff does nothing. I placed it on a Cryptek and he didn't do meaningful damage the entire tournament.
- Destroyers are way tankier than I expected. Against S4 armies, I need to use them more aggressively. At one point a squad of boyz with 100 attacks slammed into my destroyers and killed... two of them. They're basically wraiths defensive-wise against units lacking AP.
- Tesla Immortals are better than Gauss Immortals for 5 man ObSec Squads. Gauss math out stronger at 12", but if my Immortal squad is tethered 3" from the objective, the only shots they're likely to get are at 24".
- Wraiths were pretty meh. They died faster than expected, and didn't punch as hard as I expected. They weren't terrible, but for 1/3rd of my list (counting needing to fill a whole detachment for Novokh), they didn't do their job.
- Mephrit did less than I expected. It was great for warriors/immortals but due to their mobility they were rarely getting in that 12" sweet spot and were minimal shooting compared to the Destroyers. The extra -1 AP on Destroyers never came into play.
- Immortal Pride Warlord trait was a so-so. I got decent mileage out of the antipsyker part, but got very little from the 'ignore morale' part.
- I brought a rez-orb. It earned back points in 1/5 games, and even in that game, 35 more points of troops upfront would have been stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Necron_Mason wrote: Now that you mention it, a Sautekh Aux Warlord doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. Do you know what HQ it was specifically?
IIRC, it was a cloaktek. I believe she used the mobility to stand on objectives.
Xachariah wrote: I suppose I should also give my lessons learned from Broadside Bash.
I ran Mephrit Battalion + Novokh Outrider. 600 points of 2x6 Destroyers, 550 points of Wraiths, and Anrakyr in the Novokh detachment so he could abandon them and do overlord things with my Destroyers. My list was very similar to the top Necron list (except I invested more in Destroyers) so it was more piloting issues than list issues.
Lessons - Destroyers were my MVPs by far. They earned back their points every game, took punishment, and kept giving back. I would move to 3x6 in a heartbeat. - Voltaic Staff does nothing. I placed it on a Cryptek and he didn't do meaningful damage the entire tournament. - Destroyers are way tankier than I expected. Against S4 armies, I need to use them more aggressively. At one point a squad of boyz with 100 attacks slammed into my destroyers and killed... two of them. They're basically wraiths defensive-wise against units lacking AP. - Tesla Immortals are better than Gauss Immortals for 5 man ObSec Squads. Gauss math out stronger at 12", but if my Immortal squad is tethered 3" from the objective, the only shots they're likely to get are at 24". - Wraiths were pretty meh. They died faster than expected, and didn't punch as hard as I expected. They weren't terrible, but for 1/3rd of my list (counting needing to fill a whole detachment for Novokh), they didn't do their job. - Mephrit did less than I expected. It was great for warriors/immortals but due to their mobility they were rarely getting in that 12" sweet spot and were minimal shooting compared to the Destroyers. The extra -1 AP on Destroyers never came into play. - Immortal Pride Warlord trait was a so-so. I got decent mileage out of the antipsyker part, but got very little from the 'ignore morale' part. - I brought a rez-orb. It earned back points in 1/5 games, and even in that game, 35 more points of troops upfront would have been stronger.
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Necron_Mason wrote: Now that you mention it, a Sautekh Aux Warlord doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. Do you know what HQ it was specifically?
IIRC, it was a cloaktek. I believe she used the mobility to stand on objectives.
That is all really good information. I would think more than one squad of Destroyers wouldn't be worth it since you can only use the Stratagem once per turn. Glad to hear they can stand on their own. Will have to Mathhammer later to see what and how much of said what I should be throwing them at lol. Also great to know they can survive S4 AP 0 hits like champs.
Tesla>Gauss Immortals for 5 man ObSec Squads interests me as I was planning on running 3 5xGauss Immortals in a Nephrekh Battalion for 2000 point games to teleport in either on Objectives or right near must-kill/vulnerable targets to add to the damage/finish them off. With the Nephrekh Code they can teleport near an enemy to shoot at them, then if they don't get charged move + advance 11" towards an Objective, or just dump them on the Objective if need be. Would you still suggest Tesla over Gauss in that scenario or do you think Gauss is more optimal for this strategy?
Cloaktek for Objectives does seem like the best and cheapest way to go if doing that. I was considering Immotekh or a Destroyer Lord, but both of them run pretty high in points.
Necron_Mason wrote: That is all really good information. I would think more than one squad of Destroyers wouldn't be worth it since you can only use the Stratagem once per turn. Glad to hear they can stand on their own. Will have to Mathhammer later to see what and how much of said what I should be throwing them at lol. Also great to know they can survive S4 AP 0 hits like champs.
Tesla>Gauss Immortals for 5 man ObSec Squads interests me as I was planning on running 3 5xGauss Immortals in a Nephrekh Battalion for 2000 point games to teleport in either on Objectives or right near must-kill/vulnerable targets to add to the damage/finish them off. With the Nephrekh Code they can teleport near an enemy to shoot at them, then if they don't get charged move + advance 11" towards an Objective, or just dump them on the Objective if need be. Would you still suggest Tesla over Gauss in that scenario or do you think Gauss is more optimal for this strategy?
Destroyers get a lot better with the stratagem, but they're no slouches when it comes to damage. One thing to note is that if you have 2x6 Destroyer squads, it's mathematically better to use MWBD on the squad that doesn't get MWBD. I had an overlord and a lord supporting, so I'd have 1 destroyer squad stick near to get both their buffs and one squad roaming that would get the stratagem. Also, Extermination Protocols is huge for killing things that are T7+ (90% damage increase), but isn't as dramatic for T5- (50% increase), and supported destroyers (lord + MWBD) only get a minor increase from the stratagem vs T5- (14% increase, although it's still a 42% increase vs T7+).
Your initial strategy would probably work better with Gauss, although that's a ton of CP to burn. Since we're already super CP thirsty, I'd maybe just take tesla so those guys could use Nihilakh 6" advance and still shoot at half effectiveness, given the new 'no deep strike on turn 1' rule.
Destroyers get a lot better with the stratagem, but they're no slouches when it comes to damage. One thing to note is that if you have 2x6 Destroyer squads, it's mathematically better to use MWBD on the squad that doesn't get MWBD. I had an overlord and a lord supporting, so I'd have 1 destroyer squad stick near to get both their buffs and one squad roaming that would get the stratagem. Also, Extermination Protocols is huge for killing things that are T7+ (90% damage increase), but isn't as dramatic for T5- (50% increase), and supported destroyers (lord + MWBD) only get a minor increase from the stratagem vs T5- (14% increase, although it's still a 42% increase vs T7+).
Your initial strategy would probably work better with Gauss, although that's a ton of CP to burn. Since we're already super CP thirsty, I'd maybe just take tesla so those guys could use Nihilakh 6" advance and still shoot at half effectiveness. They'd probably even out at just as much shooting and get there at the same time, since you can't deep strike on T1 anymore
Hmmm never thought of that! Will definitely have to consider it in the future! The stats versus T helps a lot!
I honestly don't think CP will be a problem for my list. I have 2 Battalions and a Spearhead for a total of 14 CP, 18/19 on average considering the Sautekh Trait. I'm not sure if 14 CP to spend on Stratagems after TC will be enough to last the entire game as I haven't playtested it yet and still fine tuning some things, but we will see~
On the voltaic staff, I've had the opposite experience. Equipped on a sniper barge, I've shredded multiple characters with it. You just need to make sure you can get the range with it. Putting it on a cryptek is a bit of a waste as you want that 2+ to hit from the overlord since you are limited to 3 shots. I could see it on a cloaktek for the mobility, but never on a footslogging cryptek. Bargelords are the best platform as you get the best of both worlds with a good BS and the mobility to compensate for the short range.
Maelstrom808 wrote: On the voltaic staff, I've had the opposite experience. Equipped on a sniper barge, I've shredded multiple characters with it. You just need to make sure you can get the range with it. Putting it on a cryptek is a bit of a waste as you want that 2+ to hit from the overlord since you are limited to 3 shots. I could see it on a cloaktek for the mobility, but never on a footslogging cryptek. Bargelords are the best platform as you get the best of both worlds with a good BS and the mobility to compensate for the short range.
Yeah I agree voltaic staff is really good, BUT must be built around
That's the main problem with the sniper barge- having to build around it. It uses up your relic and warlord trait which are needed for other things quite often.
Mephrit is great for our troops and they like to have a VoD so that costs a CP. Warriors really like mephrit but if you're using warrior blobs you need the ignore morale warlord trait.
_Ness wrote: dont forget the 2CP vanilla pass morale stratagem in the BRB.
We aren't particularly CP rich, as our troops for battalions are not cheap. The fearless warlord trait can be...really clutch. I run it in almost every game. The ability to deny 1 power a turn has been handy vs Dark Angels and Tyranids.
