I finished manually editing my Battlescribe datafile with the new points.
My VH Brigade/BR Vanguard list went from 1999 to 2305. I was able to get it back to 1998 by deleting a Retributor Squad, Seraphim Squad and one Battle Sister Squad - but I'll probably continue to tweak it.
So everybody who lost their minds over the 1+ save storm shield situation can breathe a little easier now. The Indomitus mini-dex got updated to modify the roll, not the attribute.
Definitely use as few basic troops as possible. It bothers me that one intercessor costs less points than 2 battle sisters - I’d take one Intercessor over 2 battle sisters any day
So I've noticed there has been some talk about shifting from Vanguard detachments to Patrol, but what is the actual exchange rate for a CP when it comes to points? We have to ring a troop choice and get one less BR elite option?
So I've noticed there has been some talk about shifting from Vanguard detachments to Patrol, but what is the actual exchange rate for a CP when it comes to points? We have to ring a troop choice and get one less BR elite option?
Patrol maxes out at 2 Elites, which is fine for my purposes since that's all I ran from BR anyway (and I can fit the non-order Elite characters in my Battalion). However, lists running larger numbers of Repentia and Zephyrim will probably need to stick with the Vanguard for the 3-5 slots.
For me, the question was basically "Is it worth shifting one Sisters squad from VH to BR to gain 1cp?" I think it is, but will need to test it out.
55 points is pretty reasonable for what you get, though with the Breachable and Scaleable keywords you can't use three of them to wall your opponent off from half the table since they can move through and over them.
The detachment slot isn't a big drawback anymore and it doesn't CP.
Lemondish wrote: So everybody who lost their minds over the 1+ save storm shield situation can breathe a little easier now. The Indomitus mini-dex got updated to modify the roll, not the attribute.
I called it. I never freaked over it because I figured there was no way it would count for ALL SS, nor even be meant for the NEW SS.
Lemondish wrote: So everybody who lost their minds over the 1+ save storm shield situation can breathe a little easier now. The Indomitus mini-dex got updated to modify the roll, not the attribute.
I called it. I never freaked over it because I figured there was no way it would count for ALL SS, nor even be meant for the NEW SS.
So the Callidus ISN'T invalidated.
Just overpriced.
I thought it was 50/50 that they'd let it stand. Better to plan for the worst than be surprised for it.
What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
jivardi wrote: What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
Wait people are taking Repentia in 5s? Why. I thought they'd be one of the units you'd want to play near max-ish to bop things in the face.
jivardi wrote: What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
Wait people are taking Repentia in 5s? Why. I thought they'd be one of the units you'd want to play near max-ish to bop things in the face.
2x 4-5 Repentia is the same # of attacks but more tactically flexible when you don't need those extra attacks
jivardi wrote: Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
The Bloody Rose Canoness with relic chainsword is a total badass, especially for her points at a third of a Celestine or half of an assassin. I know that doesn't help those running other orders, but if choppy is what you want....
jivardi wrote: What's honestly a fair price for the Assassins? I don't know of many better combat units for 100pts.
None in the Sisters army anyway. 7 Repentia are 105 but most peeps appear to be taking them in 5's.
Repentia are better against vehicles due to S7 but Callidus is going to melt any infantry with an invul save. A Callidus will do better at handling SS models than Repentia will.
Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
Wait people are taking Repentia in 5s? Why. I thought they'd be one of the units you'd want to play near max-ish to bop things in the face.
2x 4-5 Repentia is the same # of attacks but more tactically flexible when you don't need those extra attacks
But then that's more resources being put into having two squads survive and make the charge. Whether that's allocating more miracle dice or just hoping you get the long charge/same target as the other squad.
jivardi wrote: Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
The Bloody Rose Canoness with relic chainsword is a total badass, especially for her points at a third of a Celestine or half of an assassin. I know that doesn't help those running other orders, but if choppy is what you want....
The Callidus gets taken almost entirely for reign of confusion. The fact that she might ace one character before she goes down is a nice bonus. . Most Canoness loadouts do more damage than she does, especially against things that don't have an invulnerable save.
jivardi wrote: Unfortunately the only unit in a SoB army even close to as choppy as a Callidus (or Evorsor) is Celestine and she's 170 now. Not exactly cheap.
I know SM's have units/models choppier than an Assassin but that requires souping, which now costs CP.
The Bloody Rose Canoness with relic chainsword is a total badass, especially for her points at a third of a Celestine or half of an assassin. I know that doesn't help those running other orders, but if choppy is what you want....
The Callidus gets taken almost entirely for reign of confusion. The fact that she might ace one character before she goes down is a nice bonus. . Most Canoness loadouts do more damage than she does, especially against things that don't have an invulnerable save.
I don't have, nor plan to, take a separate detachment for BR. I play VH so my Cannoness isn't as choppy.
I haven't looked at the points costs for SM yet but I have feeling more TH/SS terminators will hit the board. One of the local players has Ultra's and he loves his TH/SS terminators. He always takes at least one 10 man.
Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
I have units of 9 and that won't change but I don't think 5 can do much. 9 more prone to blasts but that's what rhino's/terrain is for.
Fear of blast is the biggest knee jerk overreaction I think I've seen for this edition thus far.
1+ Terminators was another.
Wait until you bring that 11 girl squad in the mirror and the opponents conflag Exo suddenly goes from it's traditional 4-5 shots per turn to 18.
5-10 you're right though, it's not a huge difference unless they FAQ multiple D6 guns.
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MacPhail wrote: Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
I kinda think you're ignoring how bad it is that you're at like half a command point at the end of all that. Also the points on the Seraphim and zephyrim are wrong, that's the old cost. Those units are 95 and 105 as equipped
My only other comments are that I hate Celestians and am starting to hate stormbolters on BSS.
MacPhail wrote: Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
First off, these are both 9 CP List. Remember that the Battalion with your Warlord is free as is the Fortification detachment that matches your warlord.
But I think we all need to consider overhauling how we build list. Look at secondary detachments for the maximum of what they offer rather than the minimum. How much can I put into this Patrol detachment versus what is the minimum for a Battalion. Move the Preacher to the other Battaltion and you are one Elite away from turning the Battalion into a Patrol, saving a CP.
MacPhail wrote: Okay, here's a list that reflects a late-8th list I was having fun and finding success with. This version is down an Exorcist and a Seraphim squad (I think) plus some ablative bodies to offset the cost changes. Hopefully the melta/simulacrum/cherub combos I have spread around compensates for the Exorcist. The Valorous Heart sends two Rhinos forward, each with melta BSS and stormbolter Doms, backed up by a souped-up Imagifier, Canoness, and the Exorcists. The Bloody Rose has two elements, a Rhino with Celestians, Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher, backed by the second Canoness and 3x5 infantry. It should be able to cash in on Miracle Dice, and it's all 5x MSU. I'm at 1980, so I can add some plasma pistols and a combi-weapon, and I think it hits the field with 6CP.
I think it checks some good boxes: stands up to alpha strike, moves out fast, can storm an objective, and is hard to shift. Comments and math validation most welcome. I'm also going to take a run at downgrading one to a Patrol and/or swapping in a Vanguard, if anyone sees the obvious path there.
EDIT: And now I see there's no reason not to do a Vanguard for Bloody Rose instead. In exchange for three units of Battle Sisters, I can take a second squad of Seraphim, a second squad of Celestians, and a Penitent Engine... so that's a fun mix.
First off, these are both 9 CP List. Remember that the Battalion with your Warlord is free as is the Fortification detachment that matches your warlord.
But I think we all need to consider overhauling how we build list. Look at secondary detachments for the maximum of what they offer rather than the minimum. How much can I put into this Patrol detachment versus what is the minimum for a Battalion. Move the Preacher to the other Battaltion and you are one Elite away from turning the Battalion into a Patrol, saving a CP.
I think he's including all the CP he's spending on relic, etc. Which, honestly, we probably shouldn't be doing so much anymore.
Given there are only 5 turns now, and realistically most of our CP will be spent on turns 2-4, how many CP would you recommend to start with, and I mean how many after spending on relics / tales / traits.
Yep, this is exactly the conversation I want to be having.
So, 2-3 CP is the cost to diversify Orders in a list of this size. I could actually do a Valorous Heart Patrol more easily, with 2 Exos, 2 Dominions, Imagifier/Preacher, and a BSS to screen the aura characters. Bloody Rose kind of needs 3 Elites (Celestians, Imagifier, Zephyrim) to capitalize on the Order Convictions, plus a bunch of bodies to benefit from the buffs. Does the Warlord need to come from the largest detachment in this edition? Obviously running a single Order maximizes CP for other things, so I really need to justify two. In my mind, VH makes the big guns and objective campers more resilient, while BR gives me a tool to try to sweep an area of the board to establish control.
As for other pregame CP expenditures, they are getting harder to justify.
~ Open the Reliquaries (1 CP)... I feel like bringing Beneficence and the Book of St. Lucius in this list are worth the CP.
~ Heroine in the Making (1 CP)... I like the Imagifier playing an outsized role with the 9" aura of ignore AP-2 / +1 SoF serves the mechanized core of the list.
~ Venerated Saint (1 CP)... this one is harder to justify. I like +1S and ignore AP-1 on the Bloody Rose blob, but maybe the Strength buff is enough on them.
In a double Battalion, I've gone from 12 down to 6, plus 1 per turn as the game goes on. In my mind that's...
~ 1 or 2 uses of Blessed Bolts and Deadly Descent as circumstances dictate.
~ 2 uses of Tear Them Down on Bloody Rose melee units.
~ 1 CP for Devastating Refrain (which I used to use every turn, but won't so much now).
~ 1 or 2 CP for Divine Intervention or Martyred, whichever makes sense.
~ 1 or 2 for Purity of Faith, Blind Faith, Holy Rage, Embodied Prophecy... more circumstantially useful.
Plus all the new Universal Stratagems, which I haven't really considered. But hey, we don't need to save one for Celestine anymore!
So, I don't feel like I've blown all my CP pre-game, but I've definitely limited my options for stratagems. The question is whether dropping Venerated Saint and switching to a Patrol to put 2 CP back in the bucket is worth it. Similarly, is giving up 2-3 to bring the Hammer and Anvil combo of VH/BR a worthy investment... I think it is, or maybe I just want it to be.
For me, the relics / extra tale and traits are must haves for setting up my force.
With a single Brigade detachment I start off with 8 CP turn 1. But that’s 6 non-efficient troops I’m carrying. So I’m debating making 1 battalion + 1 patrol to free up 110 pts of troops and turn them into Mortifiers or Repentia, etc. Is freeing up 110 points for more efficient units worth 2 CP?
So it’s almost the same question as you @McPhail but in reverse.
davidgr33n wrote: Given there are only 5 turns now, and realistically most of our CP will be spent on turns 2-4, how many CP would you recommend to start with, and I mean how many after spending on relics / tales / traits.
Ideally? 25-30. In reality, no less than 8 counting the +1 for turn 1.
For me, if I want to outflank something, that takes the place of 2 Tales. If I want an additional patrol, the extra warlord trait and the weakest of whichever of the 3-4 relics I usually have goes.
One thing for br is imagifier is less needed. Differenc between s7 and s6 repentia isn't that big. Needing to skim points one thing i'm looking at. Br elements tend to be 1 off assets so 1 phase they get bonus. Oh and coherncy change makes harder to be in range as well
MacPhail wrote: Yep, this is exactly the conversation I want to be having.
So, 2-3 CP is the cost to diversify Orders in a list of this size. I could actually do a Valorous Heart Patrol more easily, with 2 Exos, 2 Dominions, Imagifier/Preacher, and a BSS to screen the aura characters. Bloody Rose kind of needs 3 Elites (Celestians, Imagifier, Zephyrim) to capitalize on the Order Convictions, plus a bunch of bodies to benefit from the buffs. Does the Warlord need to come from the largest detachment in this edition? Obviously running a single Order maximizes CP for other things, so I really need to justify two. In my mind, VH makes the big guns and objective campers more resilient, while BR gives me a tool to try to sweep an area of the board to establish control.
As for other pregame CP expenditures, they are getting harder to justify.
~ Open the Reliquaries (1 CP)... I feel like bringing Beneficence and the Book of St. Lucius in this list are worth the CP.
~ Heroine in the Making (1 CP)... I like the Imagifier playing an outsized role with the 9" aura of ignore AP-2 / +1 SoF serves the mechanized core of the list.
~ Venerated Saint (1 CP)... this one is harder to justify. I like +1S and ignore AP-1 on the Bloody Rose blob, but maybe the Strength buff is enough on them.
In a double Battalion, I've gone from 12 down to 6, plus 1 per turn as the game goes on. In my mind that's...
~ 1 or 2 uses of Blessed Bolts and Deadly Descent as circumstances dictate.
~ 2 uses of Tear Them Down on Bloody Rose melee units.
~ 1 CP for Devastating Refrain (which I used to use every turn, but won't so much now).
~ 1 or 2 CP for Divine Intervention or Martyred, whichever makes sense.
~ 1 or 2 for Purity of Faith, Blind Faith, Holy Rage, Embodied Prophecy... more circumstantially useful.
Plus all the new Universal Stratagems, which I haven't really considered. But hey, we don't need to save one for Celestine anymore!
So, I don't feel like I've blown all my CP pre-game, but I've definitely limited my options for stratagems. The question is whether dropping Venerated Saint and switching to a Patrol to put 2 CP back in the bucket is worth it. Similarly, is giving up 2-3 to bring the Hammer and Anvil combo of VH/BR a worthy investment... I think it is, or maybe I just want it to be.
I would argue that Book is both creating too good of a target of opportunity and operating only as insulation against mistakes in the movement phase. We have so few CP now that any of the relics/WTs/etc that are meant to make up for mistakes are no longer worth it. I also think that it's probably more efficient to bring 2 imagifiers now than it is to spend a CP on 2 tales, but time will tell.
The +1 SoF from the warlord trait is less valuable than it was before due to a bunch of factors, most noteably the big bump baseline bodies got vs special weapons and the new terrain rules. I wasn't a huge fan of it before, I probably won't use it at all now.
My CP expenditures on lists so far all look like: 1CP for Extra relic (beneficence if I'm bringing BR, Surplice if not, primary relic is usually litanies) 2CP for a patrol, 1-2CP for reserves.
Not sure but what I'll actually build towards a VH Brigade, but then again a Battalion might be sufficient as I'm not figuring on bringing more than 3 of any particular slot anyways. Battalion has less troop tax so I can use more points on fun toys, or even sacrifice a couple of CP to bring a BR patrol if needed.
I think im looking at
2cp second detachment
2cp extra relic
1 cp heroin in the making
1cp venerated saint
2 cp reserves
0-1 random sacred rites (double means a reroll start of game)
U02dah4 wrote: I think im looking at
2cp second detachment
2cp extra relic
1 cp heroin in the making
1cp venerated saint
2 cp reserves
0-1 random sacred rites (double means a reroll start of game)
Leaving 3-4 to start the game
Sucks considering for all that I used to START with 11 or 12 CP every game: I would have double WL Traits, 4 Relics and double Tales.
Im looking at trying to fit Death cults back into my list. I play super casually garage hammer and death cults, Callidus assassin and an inquisitor has been a part of my army since the Witchhunter days. with the recent changes to agents of the Imperium (i dont own the books i boycotted them after phoenix rising) im looking at either running 2 detachments or breaking my army traits which doesnt sound like a good option.. I was really hoping execution force would let me take an assassin detachment and get refunded but nope...
but with the point changes, death cults seem like they could be worth using again even after the asinine change to 6 unit size cap out of nowhere, as they are now the cheapest of the 3 Ministorum units.
Im struggling with the point increase on seraphim and zephyrim as seraphim have been my favorite unit in 40k for a long time and iv always ran 2 or 3 max sized squads (not as melta suicide squads) as i never really needed them to work that way, but between them and the zephyim increase im losing nearly an entire squad of sisters out of my list if i want to keep them.
U02dah4 wrote: I think im looking at
2cp second detachment
2cp extra relic
1 cp heroin in the making
1cp venerated saint
2 cp reserves
0-1 random sacred rites (double means a reroll start of game)
Leaving 3-4 to start the game
Sucks considering for all that I used to START with 11 or 12 CP every game: I would have double WL Traits, 4 Relics and double Tales.
This is one I fear we're going to have take as "good for the game" while resenting its impact. I often played against Death Guard or Thousand Sons armies who played every game with 6 to my 12. It definitely had an impact when I could spam stratagems left and right knowing that a few of them had to come good while my opponent carefully gambled on a few select strats and then rode out the last three turns with nothing up his sleeve. I do think this will be better overall (and here's hoping the faction-specific strats are balanced to some degree) now that having and playing stratagems means the same thing for all armies.
MacPhail wrote: Yep, this is exactly the conversation I want to be having.
I would argue that Book is both creating too good of a target of opportunity and operating only as insulation against mistakes in the movement phase. We have so few CP now that any of the relics/WTs/etc that are meant to make up for mistakes are no longer worth it. I also think that it's probably more efficient to bring 2 imagifiers now than it is to spend a CP on 2 tales, but time will tell.
The +1 SoF from the warlord trait is less valuable than it was before due to a bunch of factors, most noteably the big bump baseline bodies got vs special weapons and the new terrain rules. I wasn't a huge fan of it before, I probably won't use it at all now.
My CP expenditures on lists so far all look like: 1CP for Extra relic (beneficence if I'm bringing BR, Surplice if not, primary relic is usually litanies) 2CP for a patrol, 1-2CP for reserves.
I could spring for a unit of Celestians to support the VH Imagifier, but there so much better as BR. It'll be interseting to see how the new character targeting rules work in practice and whether dedicated aura characters like that are much more vulnerable.
I don't fully grok your take on SoF, special weapons, and terrain if you'd be willing to unpack that a bit. That used to be such a strong go-to warlord trait.
U02dah4 wrote: I think im looking at
2cp second detachment
2cp extra relic
1 cp heroin in the making
1cp venerated saint
2 cp reserves
0-1 random sacred rites (double means a reroll start of game)
Leaving 3-4 to start the game
Sucks considering for all that I used to START with 11 or 12 CP every game: I would have double WL Traits, 4 Relics and double Tales.
This is one I fear we're going to have take as "good for the game" while resenting its impact. I often played against Death Guard or Thousand Sons armies who played every game with 6 to my 12. It definitely had an impact when I could spam stratagems left and right knowing that a few of them had to come good while my opponent carefully gambled on a few select strats and then rode out the last three turns with nothing up his sleeve. I do think this will be better overall (and here's hoping the faction-specific strats are balanced to some degree) now that having and playing stratagems means the same thing for all armies.
MacPhail wrote: Yep, this is exactly the conversation I want to be having.
I would argue that Book is both creating too good of a target of opportunity and operating only as insulation against mistakes in the movement phase. We have so few CP now that any of the relics/WTs/etc that are meant to make up for mistakes are no longer worth it. I also think that it's probably more efficient to bring 2 imagifiers now than it is to spend a CP on 2 tales, but time will tell.
The +1 SoF from the warlord trait is less valuable than it was before due to a bunch of factors, most noteably the big bump baseline bodies got vs special weapons and the new terrain rules. I wasn't a huge fan of it before, I probably won't use it at all now.
My CP expenditures on lists so far all look like: 1CP for Extra relic (beneficence if I'm bringing BR, Surplice if not, primary relic is usually litanies) 2CP for a patrol, 1-2CP for reserves.
I could spring for a unit of Celestians to support the VH Imagifier, but there so much better as BR. It'll be interseting to see how the new character targeting rules work in practice and whether dedicated aura characters like that are much more vulnerable.
I don't fully grok your take on SoF, special weapons, and terrain if you'd be willing to unpack that a bit. That used to be such a strong go-to warlord trait.
The terrain rules make all defensive buffs less valuable (except VH immune to rend due to it stacking with cover) simply because you should be getting hit less (unless you played ITC, but even then you have dense now which will help a lot of armies with no native -1.) Basically you don't need to rely on SoF to eat as much fire as before.
The SoF bubble I've always found sort of worthless unless you were running a ton of big squads. VH is immune to AP up to -2 already and there are very few weapons in the game that aren't being massively wasted being AP-3 and shooting at battle sisters. There are a few exceptions, necron bikes and dev doctrine TFC, but the vast majority of what kills my battle sisters is bolter fire. ALso I tend to bring less bodies than a lot of other sisters players do. My 8th lists were all built around min squads of battle sisters with just stormbolters. I never saw meaningful value out of the 4++ once it became infantry only and very quickly stopped spending CP on it. Argent shroud lists will still take it every time, but they've got 100+ models scooting around the board.
Sisters bodies went universally up, sisters special weapons went majority down. That makes weapons more valuable relative to bodies. Take a battle sister versus a melta gun. 9pts VS 14pts is now 11pts vs 10pts that's a 6 point swing in the melta gun's favor. Same with seraphim and inferno pistols 11 vs 7 to 15 vs 5. This means that we should be shifting our investment away from relatively more expensive bodies into relatively cheaper guns. A knock-on effect of this is that you have less bodies on the table to benefit from the 4++ SoF, which means that the SoF is now less valuable.
MacPhail wrote: I don't fully grok your take on SoF, special weapons, and terrain if you'd be willing to unpack that a bit. That used to be such a strong go-to warlord trait.
The terrain rules make all defensive buffs less valuable (except VH immune to rend due to it stacking with cover) simply because you should be getting hit less (unless you played ITC, but even then you have dense now which will help a lot of armies with no native -1.) Basically you don't need to rely on SoF to eat as much fire as before.
The SoF bubble I've always found sort of worthless unless you were running a ton of big squads. VH is immune to AP up to -2 already and there are very few weapons in the game that aren't being massively wasted being AP-3 and shooting at battle sisters. There are a few exceptions, necron bikes and dev doctrine TFC, but the vast majority of what kills my battle sisters is bolter fire. ALso I tend to bring less bodies than a lot of other sisters players do. My 8th lists were all built around min squads of battle sisters with just stormbolters. I never saw meaningful value out of the 4++ once it became infantry only and very quickly stopped spending CP on it. Argent shroud lists will still take it every time, but they've got 100+ models scooting around the board.
Sisters bodies went universally up, sisters special weapons went majority down. That makes weapons more valuable relative to bodies. Take a battle sister versus a melta gun. 9pts VS 14pts is now 11pts vs 10pts that's a 6 point swing in the melta gun's favor. Same with seraphim and inferno pistols 11 vs 7 to 15 vs 5. This means that we should be shifting our investment away from relatively more expensive bodies into relatively cheaper guns. A knock-on effect of this is that you have less bodies on the table to benefit from the 4++ SoF, which means that the SoF is now less valuable.
I gotcha... this makes some good sense. I do play a lot against Necrons, where the boosted invuln means more, but maybe if they were only 1-in-10 opponents (it's more like 1-in-3 or 4 for me) that would have jumped out at me at some point. There's probably a late 7th edition Celestine Cathedral with Exorcists and Bullgryns hangover that keeps that WT looking shinier that it should. I assume I've got some other notions in that category... what other old standard choices are getting tossed aside? If not Indomitable Belief, are there any other WTs worth a CP, or is it just Beacon of Faith all the time?
I also get the shift in points from bodies to guns. So is expensive bodies and cheap guns a rationale for considering other types of special/heavy spam? Are melta Doms worth a look, even without scouting transports? What about heavy flamer Rets? Does anyone get flamers ever for any reason?
I think its more list dependent - i like infantry i have no exorcists and play BR not VH and yes more infantry=more value. BR have more to gain from a 4++ (i take junith in a side detatchment) as your) benefiting vs ap2 and theres a lot of that these days.
As to the book takeing it on a triple aura imagifier warlord does create a target - but a target in the centre of my lines. Typically if you can get to it your hyper mobile with a lot of shooting or 60% of my army has gone - im pretty sure i can do they same in 9th chsracter targetting but i need a few games to be clear
As to other relics smash cannoness is awesome
And i want the relic pistol on my repentia superior its a solid improvement over a couple of turns
MacPhail wrote: I don't fully grok your take on SoF, special weapons, and terrain if you'd be willing to unpack that a bit. That used to be such a strong go-to warlord trait.
The terrain rules make all defensive buffs less valuable (except VH immune to rend due to it stacking with cover) simply because you should be getting hit less (unless you played ITC, but even then you have dense now which will help a lot of armies with no native -1.) Basically you don't need to rely on SoF to eat as much fire as before.
The SoF bubble I've always found sort of worthless unless you were running a ton of big squads. VH is immune to AP up to -2 already and there are very few weapons in the game that aren't being massively wasted being AP-3 and shooting at battle sisters. There are a few exceptions, necron bikes and dev doctrine TFC, but the vast majority of what kills my battle sisters is bolter fire. ALso I tend to bring less bodies than a lot of other sisters players do. My 8th lists were all built around min squads of battle sisters with just stormbolters. I never saw meaningful value out of the 4++ once it became infantry only and very quickly stopped spending CP on it. Argent shroud lists will still take it every time, but they've got 100+ models scooting around the board.
Sisters bodies went universally up, sisters special weapons went majority down. That makes weapons more valuable relative to bodies. Take a battle sister versus a melta gun. 9pts VS 14pts is now 11pts vs 10pts that's a 6 point swing in the melta gun's favor. Same with seraphim and inferno pistols 11 vs 7 to 15 vs 5. This means that we should be shifting our investment away from relatively more expensive bodies into relatively cheaper guns. A knock-on effect of this is that you have less bodies on the table to benefit from the 4++ SoF, which means that the SoF is now less valuable.
I gotcha... this makes some good sense. I do play a lot against Necrons, where the boosted invuln means more, but maybe if they were only 1-in-10 opponents (it's more like 1-in-3 or 4 for me) that would have jumped out at me at some point. There's probably a late 7th edition Celestine Cathedral with Exorcists and Bullgryns hangover that keeps that WT looking shinier that it should. I assume I've got some other notions in that category... what other old standard choices are getting tossed aside? If not Indomitable Belief, are there any other WTs worth a CP, or is it just Beacon of Faith all the time?
I also get the shift in points from bodies to guns. So is expensive bodies and cheap guns a rationale for considering other types of special/heavy spam? Are melta Doms worth a look, even without scouting transports? What about heavy flamer Rets? Does anyone get flamers ever for any reason?
Melta doms are definitely worth a look (especially once eradicators eat the emergency nerf they desperately need) Scout alone is insanely powerful just for letting you get into position to grab objectives, even if they can't jump out of vehicles anymore. Heavy flamer rets COULD work, especially with them being able to take a combi-melta for relatively cheap now (Holy Trinity isn't bad if it's just a thing that happens rather than something you go out of your way for). Regular flamers are still trash and Hand Flamers are Omega LUL turbo dead. Even for seraphim. Also, kitted out Celestians might be worth considering now as an offensive tool, rather than just a chaff clearing bodyguard for bloody rose.
Also, it's not necessarily 'tossing things aside' so much as it's making really difficult choices. If you're not running 50+ footslog infantry anymore, which a lot of lists won't be, the 4++ isn't going to be as useful. Same for if you're running mostly transports (rhinos are actually seeming to be a lot better now even though immolators are utter gak). Same again for if you take advantage of outflank. You really have to look at your list and think 'how many models is this protecting? How much damage is this going to prevent? Would I rather do this than get a turn of Devastating Refrain, or a chance to get reroll wounds on grey knights with your repentia/mortifiers? Indomitable belief was a no brainer before because 1CP wasn't that big of a deal when we had every list starting at 15 and a lot of them going all the way up to 20. Now that we're realistically capped at 11 (its is HARD to build a list without at least a patrol and don't count on the +1 per turn CP to save you.)
One casualty of this is that there are only really 3 warlord traits now. Indomitable, Beacon, and the ebon chalice one should you go that route. Putting 2 CP into one Canoness with the new character rules is risky for a major army wide buff, doing it to give an already decent melee character some rerolls when the LoS rules make it much riskier for her to even be on the board is honestly just asking for it at this point.
Also, sorry about your (and I guess a lot more people's) necron opponent's. Between Tomb Blades, DDAs, and quantum shielding they're easily our worst matchup.
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U02dah4 wrote: I think its more list dependent - i like infantry i have no exorcists and play BR not VH and yes more infantry=more value. BR have more to gain from a 4++ (i take junith in a side detatchment) as your) benefiting vs ap2 and theres a lot of that these days.
As to the book takeing it on a triple aura imagifier warlord does create a target - but a target in the centre of my lines. Typically if you can get to it your hyper mobile with a lot of shooting or 60% of my army has gone - im pretty sure i can do they same in 9th chsracter targetting but i need a few games to be clear
As to other relics smash cannoness is awesome
And i want the relic pistol on my repentia superior its a solid improvement over a couple of turns
One thing to consider is that CP spent before the game is a totally blind investment. Maybe that repentia superior gets a couple of shots off, maybe she dies instantly to sniper fire, no way to know. Especially now that LoS is much harder to maintain.
But CP spent DURING the game is being invested at critical junctures every time. No one is throwing out devastating refrain against a landspeeder with 3 wounds left, but a relic pistol might just end up bouncing off of stormshields the whole game if it doesn't get a decent target.
So I was putting together a tentative list that had a Vanguard of BR and a Battalion for VH. I'm going to give the BR Cannonness a whirl still and use the extra CP for the relics so all things considered I'd be starting with 7 CP max.
The list has 3 min squads of Sisters, but it does make me wonder if I should be bringing in another squad just to protect characters. My character count is currently at: Celestine, Cannoness x2, Hospitaller, Imagifier, and a Diaologus.
Then again I guess I could just cut the Diaologus I suppose.
Unless you block them its going to be hard to keep that many characters alive under the new character targeting rules its much easier to shoot through 1 or two squads and kill the character behind it
Hmmm yeah, that does seem to be an issue. I can jam the diaologus into a rhino with the Repentia. Though ideally if they're shooting sisters to get at a character then the my exorcists and melee threats can get in?
The List btw. It comes up to 1999 just pretend I remembered ti put a diaologus in there.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Hmmm yeah, that does seem to be an issue. I can jam the diaologus into a rhino with the Repentia. Though ideally if they're shooting sisters to get at a character then the my exorcists and melee threats can get in?
The List btw. It comes up to 1999 just pretend I remembered ti put a diaologus in there.
Having two Zephyrim Pendants is odd. At least one of them should be guaranteeing a charge out of deepstrike, but then again there's a lot of melee in this list so it might be worth.
Seraphim should move over to the Vanguard so they can get the extra AP on their pistols and extra melee. VH isn't going to do much for min squads of seraphim.
Personally, I would drop the missionary(already have a preacher) and hospitaller(doesn't really have anything to heal. This is a very glass cannon build) for a Repentia Superior and an Imagifier( you can make up the extra points in stormbolters. At 3pts they're more of a luxury than something we take every time.). Either that or use those points to shift the list around so it's a battalion and a patrol.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Hmmm yeah, that does seem to be an issue. I can jam the diaologus into a rhino with the Repentia. Though ideally if they're shooting sisters to get at a character then the my exorcists and melee threats can get in?
The List btw. It comes up to 1999 just pretend I remembered ti put a diaologus in there.
Having two Zephyrim Pendants is odd. At least one of them should be guaranteeing a charge out of deepstrike, but then again there's a lot of melee in this list so it might be worth.
Seraphim should move over to the Vanguard so they can get the extra AP on their pistols and extra melee. VH isn't going to do much for min squads of seraphim.
Personally, I would drop the missionary(already have a preacher) and hospitaller(doesn't really have anything to heal. This is a very glass cannon build) for a Repentia Superior and an Imagifier( you can make up the extra points in stormbolters. At 3pts they're more of a luxury than something we take every time.). Either that or use those points to shift the list around so it's a battalion and a patrol.
The two Pennants are pretty much just for redundancy due to how much Melee I have. It's why I wanted to have a missionary and preacher as well to ensure that I can get the benefit where I need it, assuming the other one is probably going to die when I use it the first time. I agree on the hospitaller. I kinda wanted it just to heal wounds off things as opposed to bring dudes back, but I can't super justify it the more I look at it now. A second Imagifier is probably a good idea, but I'm not super sold on the Repentia Superior.
Also, totally agree on stormbolters. I was just using them to fill points since adding anything else was just super awkward for me. Not exactly sure how I'd shift the list around to make a battalion or patrol. There are just a lot of elites I want to have in the BR and I don't really want their standard Sister Squads I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm I'm actually half tempted to fit in a fourth squad BSS if I drop a preacher/missionary for objective purposes/ablative wounds.
Is there still a rule that says deep strike has to wait until Turn 2? I know that's true for strategic reserves, but the new "Reinforcements" section of the rules refers us to the datasheet, which says "at the end of one of your movement phases." Did I miss that Seraphim can drop Turn 1? Or have they been doing this since whenever? Am I bungling the rules again?
It's part of the Eternal War mission pack rules now (point 10. Declaring Reserves and Transports, final paragraph) So yeah, no dropping Seraphim in on turn 1. They're also still destoyed if they're still in reserve after turn 3. This also applies to units that started the game in Strategic Reserves.
Speaking of reserves do you have to decide those during list building before seeing opponents army like relics etc now or changen you at least those alter based on opponents?
You decide on what is in reserve before deployment after choosing your deployment zone, but before deploying armies. There's no need to spend CP as part of list building to use Strategic Reserves.
Speaking of pregame CP expenditure, it should be noted that you don't need to declare use of the Venerated Saint stratagem as part of list building as it isn't used before the start of the game. I've seen some confusion about that online (not necessarily here on Dakka) and just thought I'd point that out. The rules only call out start of game upgrade stratagems as a part of roster building.
So if you take two Imagifiers but decide you really, really need one to have a double aura, you can do so reactively.
Venerated Saint is on the chopping block for me. I had been running a Valorous Heart Imagifier with Heroine in the Making, Indomitable Belief, Book of St. Lucius, and Tale of the Stoic for a +1 SoF and ignore AP-2 out to 9", plus a Bloody Rose Imagifier with Venerated Saint, Tale of the Stoic, and Tale of the Warrior. My logic was that there's plenty of AP-1 to be encountered in melee (especially with Astartes chainswords) where BR wants to be anyway, and that they're not quite such a good target for small arms fire (when my opponents figure out the defensive difference between VH and BR, they become bullet magnets).
I'm in the position of deciding to carry on with 2CP for the VH Imagifier, or 1CP for the BR Imagifier, or both, or neither.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: For double imagifiers, are people just taking one for stoic and the other for +1 STR?
Only in bloody rose and only if you're expecting to go up against just a ton of AP-1. For valorous heart it's about redundancy and flexibility in the Stoic buff.
Slapped this together more because I wanted to. Stern and Kyganil work with Fallen because Unexpected Allies, as written, only says they don't eat a slot if there are no Fallen in your army. Nothing in the rule says you can't bring them if you have Fallen, and they have a battlefield role of HQ. The Inquisitor works, and is still slotless, because Stern & Kyganil aren't Agents of the Imperium and the detachment isn't a Fallen detachment
Thoughts? I'm least wed to the Inquisitor and more than willing to dump one or both of the strats used on it if it stays. Celestine, Stern, and the Fallen aren't leaving the list but I'm willing to modify the three Fallen units of you think I can do better than 15 combi-plasma
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: For double imagifiers, are people just taking one for stoic and the other for +1 STR?
Only in bloody rose and only if you're expecting to go up against just a ton of AP-1. For valorous heart it's about redundancy and flexibility in the Stoic buff.
Hm yeah, I get that. It seems handy to keep one up front with the squads and another near the Exorcists
Taikishi wrote: Slapped this together more because I wanted to. Stern and Kyganil work with Fallen because Unexpected Allies, as written, only says they don't eat a slot if there are no Fallen in your army. Nothing in the rule says you can't bring them if you have Fallen, and they have a battlefield role of HQ. The Inquisitor works, and is still slotless, because Stern & Kyganil aren't Agents of the Imperium and the detachment isn't a Fallen detachment
Thoughts? I'm least wed to the Inquisitor and more than willing to dump one or both of the strats used on it if it stays. Celestine, Stern, and the Fallen aren't leaving the list but I'm willing to modify the three Fallen units of you think I can do better than 15 combi-plasma
I think as a fun experiment in creating a totally unique army that people won't have seen before, it's great.
btw what are people's thoughts are on Ephrael Stern and Friend?
They didn't get a huge point increase in the shift over in editions, from what I saw. We get to use some strategies on her, she hands out MWs fairly consistently, and doesn't seem bad in melee.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: btw what are people's thoughts are on Ephrael Stern and Friend?
They didn't get a huge point increase in the shift over in editions, from what I saw. We get to use some strategies on her, she hands out MWs fairly consistently, and doesn't seem bad in melee.
If you could take her by herself for about 70pts she'd be...decent for her mortal wound potential, but the simp that follows her around bumps her cost up too much. 125pts for what is essentially a beatstick that doesn't actually beat that hard. Just compare her to a unit of SM eradicators or a unit of melta doms, or even just a canoness with blessed blade and a brazier of eternal fire.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: For double imagifiers, are people just taking one for stoic and the other for +1 STR?
Only in bloody rose and only if you're expecting to go up against just a ton of AP-1. For valorous heart it's about redundancy and flexibility in the Stoic buff.
Hm yeah, I get that. It seems handy to keep one up front with the squads and another near the Exorcists
Come 9th i expect to keep exorcists on move as well. No -1 to hit for moving, need los anyway and if all imagifiers have around are 5 girl squads she's dead imagifier soon
I am going to build a somewhat mechanized force. Girls in Rhinos to get them up midboard quick. 9th is going to be like dodgeball; f you are slow to get the objectives it puts your opponent at a huge advantage.
Rhinos and Seraphim/Zephyrim with excorsists for support.
So ive been thinking about the new wrinkle in the game, Psychic Actions.
Not particularly interested in performing any, but according to the rule, only units with the Psyker keyword can deny Psychic Actions, so our girls are powerless to deny actions.
Would it be then worthwhile taking a Psyker - inquisitor for the ability to deny Psychic Actions?
Having that deny ability would keep an opponent from using only psychic actions in their psychic phase knowing we are unable to deny them but could deny their psychic spells.
Personally - no. The only armies that will really use Psychic Action Secondaries are going to be those that have many psykers in the first place and will easily be able to keep at least one unit out of range of a lone Inquisitor.
Against those sorts of armies, you're better off being Psyker-less so you can take Abhor the Witch.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: For double imagifiers, are people just taking one for stoic and the other for +1 STR?
Only in bloody rose and only if you're expecting to go up against just a ton of AP-1. For valorous heart it's about redundancy and flexibility in the Stoic buff.
Hm yeah, I get that. It seems handy to keep one up front with the squads and another near the Exorcists
Come 9th i expect to keep exorcists on move as well. No -1 to hit for moving, need los anyway and if all imagifiers have around are 5 girl squads she's dead imagifier soon
Wouldn't you be using the exorcist to take shots as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Latest FAQ for Imperial Armor Adeptus Arbites has a specific errata for the Repressor. So...does it still exist? . _.
It appears to have no points value in CA 2020. Make of that what you will until they either release a legends update or the new Forge World indexes for a real answer.
So i've noticed in my list building now that I tend to stay away from builds that require a lot of pregame spending and I think that's sort of the way to do it going forward. Make it not so much about 'geez, which one of these 3 relics, warlord traits, and character bonuses should I cut?' And more like 'well if I take mortifiers and rhinos instead of tons of bodies, I don't need the 4++ as much)
I'm chewing over some basic Rhino tactics. I want to run two of them, each with Valorous Heart Battle Sisters with meltas and Dominions with stormbolters. On Turn 1, whether first or second, run out and crash into an objective, then disembark into the nearest cover if possible. The meltas up front burn a Cherub and use the Simulacrum to Miracle some damage into something, while stormbolters in the rear lay down Dakka and Bless their Bolts if needed, and the Rhino blocks fire lanes or boxes out an objective.
How might this work with 9th edition scoring, first turn vs. second, and various missions? Anyone leaning toward spamming transports and/or specials?
MacPhail wrote: I'm chewing over some basic Rhino tactics. I want to run two of them, each with Valorous Heart Battle Sisters with meltas and Dominions with stormbolters. On Turn 1, whether first or second, run out and crash into an objective, then disembark into the nearest cover if possible. The meltas up front burn a Cherub and use the Simulacrum to Miracle some damage into something, while stormbolters in the rear lay down Dakka and Bless their Bolts if needed, and the Rhino blocks fire lanes or boxes out an objective.
How might this work with 9th edition scoring, first turn vs. second, and various missions? Anyone leaning toward spamming transports and/or specials?
There's a definite argument for it, the issue is target saturation. Two rhinos is likely not going to be enough to survive a shooting phase. If I was going to run rhinos I'd run 4 minimum with 2 exorcists and some mortifiers to overwhelm their anti-tank.
MacPhail wrote: I'm chewing over some basic Rhino tactics. I want to run two of them, each with Valorous Heart Battle Sisters with meltas and Dominions with stormbolters. On Turn 1, whether first or second, run out and crash into an objective, then disembark into the nearest cover if possible. The meltas up front burn a Cherub and use the Simulacrum to Miracle some damage into something, while stormbolters in the rear lay down Dakka and Bless their Bolts if needed, and the Rhino blocks fire lanes or boxes out an objective.
How might this work with 9th edition scoring, first turn vs. second, and various missions? Anyone leaning toward spamming transports and/or specials?
I was considerini it but then i realized each rhino is 4 vp for enemy if he has bring it down and thin their ranks secondaries. 3 exorcist, 2 rhino is already 20/30 secondaries...
Though maybe bring it down is preferable to assasinate. Sob has easily 5+ characters to assaslnate
MacPhail wrote: I'm chewing over some basic Rhino tactics. I want to run two of them, each with Valorous Heart Battle Sisters with meltas and Dominions with stormbolters. On Turn 1, whether first or second, run out and crash into an objective, then disembark into the nearest cover if possible. The meltas up front burn a Cherub and use the Simulacrum to Miracle some damage into something, while stormbolters in the rear lay down Dakka and Bless their Bolts if needed, and the Rhino blocks fire lanes or boxes out an objective.
How might this work with 9th edition scoring, first turn vs. second, and various missions? Anyone leaning toward spamming transports and/or specials?
I was considerini it but then i realized each rhino is 4 vp for enemy if he has bring it down and thin their ranks secondaries. 3 exorcist, 2 rhino is already 20/30 secondaries...
Though maybe bring it down is preferable to assasinate. Sob has easily 5+ characters to assaslnate
tbf, if you lost 2 rhinos and 3 exorcists, things either are already out of control or you're smashing because everything else slipped up underneath them while they were getting those 20pts. Also, not for nothing but getting even to 25pts at that juncture from SoB lists running 3 exorcists would be a tabling most likely.
Just noticed also that that's only 13VP+Thin their ranks. It's >10 not >=10 (iirc) so rhinos are only worth 2.
I think the best competitive builds for Sisters going into 9th will be balanced foot lists- troops for holding objectives and screening with counterattack units in the form of Repentia / Pen-gines and melta- Celestians, with Seraphim / Zeraphym in reserve to grab objectives or bring weight to attacks.
Most likely VH battalion with BR Patrol.
Im not sure its so Black and white VH - have the survival edge and if your playing hold the objectives and don't die then sure they are gonna last longer and score more primary than a BR heavy list and will probably score more VP overall
But a BR heavy list will be hitting the enemy a lot harder and denying the enemy objectives (if only temporarily before they are martyred). Their more aggressive play also opens up secondary options a VH list might not go for. So while they may not score as highly they may not need to to get the win
Really its a hard call without data
Personally ill be going BR with a small amount of Our Martyred lady. Its the more fun list to play.
As to lists the reduction in points means you if you take celestine/junith they are hard to justify unless you go infantry heavy. - while penitents and mortifiers are good in principle too many and your shelling VP especially if your wanting transports aswell
I'm definitely looking into going pure VH, but how do people feel about Arco-flagellants with a Preacher in a Rhino as kind of a melee cruise missile? They don't care about what order they're in so they'll fit well in a pure VH detachment. If there are other transports in the list it'll saturate the anti-tank well, especially if there are also Exorcists (and there will be in my lists).
I don't know how Arcos made out with the points changes, so please feel free to enlighten me if they went up a ton and are now crap.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm definitely looking into going pure VH, but how do people feel about Arco-flagellants with a Preacher in a Rhino as kind of a melee cruise missile? They don't care about what order they're in so they'll fit well in a pure VH detachment. If there are other transports in the list it'll saturate the anti-tank well, especially if there are also Exorcists (and there will be in my lists).
I don't know how Arcos made out with the points changes, so please feel free to enlighten me if they went up a ton and are now crap.
Basically everything went up same formula with very few exceptions. Arco's were not one. So same 2 pts.
Decent unit for smashing softer targets or high inv save targets. And elite slot or no slot which is advantage over walkers(another good option) so not competing with exorcists for slot. Though rhino bleeds bring it down vp's easily.
davidgr33n wrote: I think the best competitive builds for Sisters going into 9th will be balanced foot lists- troops for holding objectives and screening with counterattack units in the form of Repentia / Pen-gines and melta- Celestians, with Seraphim / Zeraphym in reserve to grab objectives or bring weight to attacks.
Most likely VH battalion with BR Patrol.
Here's the problem with that; if you're taking zephyrim, repentia, or celestians you want them bloody rose, if you're taking battle sisters or vehicles, you want them valorous heart.
So you take the VH batt BR patrol, you take a unit of zephyrim, a unit of celestians, and now you're out of slots before you even get a chance to grab an imagifier. Okay switch em, whelp now you don't have any infantry to exploit the -2 immunity. Take A vanguard instead? Well between double tale, which is much more important with celestians, two extra relics minimum for the BR canonesses, the vanguard, and maybe even an extra warlord trait you're down to 4CP to start the game which is nowhere near enough to power SoB.
VH + BR is still most likely the best setup but you're looking at Zephyrim+Arcos or double Zephyrim, or double repentia, you don't have the slots to take celestians in those lists and I'm still not sold on celestians in any of the other orders.
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U02dah4 wrote: Im not sure its so Black and white VH - have the survival edge and if your playing hold the objectives and don't die then sure they are gonna last longer and score more primary than a BR heavy list and will probably score more VP overall
But a BR heavy list will be hitting the enemy a lot harder and denying the enemy objectives (if only temporarily before they are martyred). Their more aggressive play also opens up secondary options a VH list might not go for. So while they may not score as highly they may not need to to get the win
Really its a hard call without data
Personally ill be going BR with a small amount of Our Martyred lady. Its the more fun list to play.
As to lists the reduction in points means you if you take celestine/junith they are hard to justify unless you go infantry heavy. - while penitents and mortifiers are good in principle too many and your shelling VP especially if your wanting transports aswell
Taking Celestine and Junith are an easier choice than ever. Both are almost 10% CHEAPER than they were before relative to the rest of the army. The idea of taking our martyred lady without Junith is crazy to me. She's the only reason you'd ever even bother with that conviction, and the reason why your list needs to be at least 75% OOML for it to not be gimping you completely compared to BR, VH, or even EC.
Also, I'm noticing a lot of people are super worried about bring it down, but they're ignoring the fact that all of our alternatives to rhinos and mortifiers and exorcists bleed thin their ranks or grind them down points just as hard. And that even if you build the list to deny bring it down, you just end up with a list that can't deal with assassinate at all. Worrying about the purge the enemy secondaries for us is like Grey Knight worrying about abhor the witch. We just can't. Our army isn't built to deny both assassinate and bring it down while also being able to win games.
Yes i take Junith - i prefer her to celestine shes more cost efficient and - im useing her for her +1 ++ Aura unlike celestine who gets confused and starts thinking shes a CC character and gets out of position
OML i would never take as a primary detatchment but a couple of units can be good when combined with BR - namely backfield objective sitting battlesisters with a heavy bolter and domminions. Both gain more benefit than from BR. As a couple of extra miracle dice is never a problem and your HB gets more accurate if they dont get wiped
I dont think its as good a pairing with VH though
As to denial i dont think you have to pure denial but you can CAP their VP or make it harder - eg im running 6 vehicles at 2vp a piece that i cant easily prltect as the easy 12 to score or 5 characters that means they have to kill them all to get 15 - and i can probably protect atleast 1
My 2K list must be really unoptimized. Between the 6 tanks and various infantry, I can be tabled and not give up full points on Thin the Ranks while Bring Them Down requires me to lose 5 of the 6 tanks. I do have 6 characters, but that means they need to kill 5 of 6 to get full points on Assassinate.
U02dah4 wrote: Yes i take Junith - i prefer her to celestine shes more cost efficient and - im useing her for her +1 ++ Aura unlike celestine who gets confused and starts thinking shes a CC character and gets out of position
OML i would never take as a primary detatchment but a couple of units can be good when combined with BR - namely backfield objective sitting battlesisters with a heavy bolter and domminions. Both gain more benefit than from BR. As a couple of extra miracle dice is never a problem and your HB gets more accurate if they dont get wiped
I dont think its as good a pairing with VH though
As to denial i dont think you have to pure denial but you can CAP their VP or make it harder - eg im running 6 vehicles at 2vp a piece that i cant easily prltect as the easy 12 to score or 5 characters that means they have to kill them all to get 15 - and i can probably protect atleast 1
You're not really capping either of those though, you're still giving him 12-15 "easy points" on both of those secondaries. In our case, with the way our army is built, I don't think maybe denying 3 VP if they either can't get the last character or choose to go after vehicles is really worth cutting out options that would give us an advantage on the table. Sure, an Exorcist is worth 3VP if they kill it, but it also could just shellack their anti-tank guns and deny 6-9VP just by killing the units that would have gotten them. That's more what I'm saying I guess; that, due to the way our army works, the best way to deny the Purge the Enemy secondaries is to...purge our enemy, rather than purge vehicles/characters out of the list. Or you just take pure VH and hope they're relying on AP-2 guns to tank hunt.
I also vastly prefer OoML as a mono army. VH and BR are still likely to be just straight up superior but OOML just works better on its own. Almost all of their value is gained in Junith, the extra MD, the +1 to hit for losing a squad member, and not needing extra detachments to fill out slots the way BR does. Taking them as a secondary detachment doesn't really let any of those strengths shine. If I was going to go OOML I would just fill a battalion and be done with it, using the incremental value of reroll 1s to wound, near max CP, and tons of miracle dice to grind out wins. Also synergizes well with just a ton of combi-plasmas and 2ish hospitallers for squads getting the +1 to hit.
I've got the painting bug again and, with the new releases, i'm going to pick up a bunch of the new SoB stuff.
There's a chance i'll want to start playing again but, i've been out of the loop since 6th edition. Would someone be able to recommend a decent 1000pt list for me? Ideally something that could be used as a good core to expand on in the future
U02dah4 wrote: Yes i take Junith - i prefer her to celestine shes more cost efficient and - im useing her for her +1 ++ Aura unlike celestine who gets confused and starts thinking shes a CC character and gets out of position
OML i would never take as a primary detatchment but a couple of units can be good when combined with BR - namely backfield objective sitting battlesisters with a heavy bolter and domminions. Both gain more benefit than from BR. As a couple of extra miracle dice is never a problem and your HB gets more accurate if they dont get wiped
I dont think its as good a pairing with VH though
As to denial i dont think you have to pure denial but you can CAP their VP or make it harder - eg im running 6 vehicles at 2vp a piece that i cant easily prltect as the easy 12 to score or 5 characters that means they have to kill them all to get 15 - and i can probably protect atleast 1
You're not really capping either of those though, you're still giving him 12-15 "easy points" on both of those secondaries. In our case, with the way our army is built, I don't think maybe denying 3 VP if they either can't get the last character or choose to go after vehicles is really worth cutting out options that would give us an advantage on the table. Sure, an Exorcist is worth 3VP if they kill it, but it also could just shellack their anti-tank guns and deny 6-9VP just by killing the units that would have gotten them. That's more what I'm saying I guess; that, due to the way our army works, the best way to deny the Purge the Enemy secondaries is to...purge our enemy, rather than purge vehicles/characters out of the list. Or you just take pure VH and hope they're relying on AP-2 guns to tank hunt.
I also vastly prefer OoML as a mono army. VH and BR are still likely to be just straight up superior but OOML just works better on its own. Almost all of their value is gained in Junith, the extra MD, the +1 to hit for losing a squad member, and not needing extra detachments to fill out slots the way BR does. Taking them as a secondary detachment doesn't really let any of those strengths shine. If I was going to go OOML I would just fill a battalion and be done with it, using the incremental value of reroll 1s to wound, near max CP, and tons of miracle dice to grind out wins. Also synergizes well with just a ton of combi-plasmas and 2ish hospitallers for squads getting the +1 to hit.
12 but 12 is still less than 15 and its tough to not give 15 as you say. As to the exorcist I wouldn't run it anyway - a lone exorcist is to vulnerable and if you multi exorcist you don't have enough infantry to do what i want to mission wise.
I've got the painting bug again and, with the new releases, i'm going to pick up a bunch of the new SoB stuff.
There's a chance i'll want to start playing again but, i've been out of the loop since 6th edition. Would someone be able to recommend a decent 1000pt list for me? Ideally something that could be used as a good core to expand on in the future
Things are up in the air right now with 9th edition, so it might be difficult to say for sure. I also am getting into sisters, and here is what I came up with for my 1000 point army, not necessarily optimized, but I think it will be fun.
Battalion--Bloody Rose
Canoness, chainsword and holy fire, takes the relic sword (I have a really cool kitbash planned for her)
Priest
3x6 battle sisters squads, two with meltas and power swords, one with a heavy bolter.
8 Repentia
Exorcist
Squad of 4 Mortifiers
Rhino
The mortifiers came out really nice in the shift to 8th (I was always planning on the heavy bolter loadout) and I really love the idea of a party bus of repentia, cannoness, and priest. The exorcist is a bit pricey on points, but the long-range firepower is hard to replace with anything else. Also, I just painted mine, and it looks amazing.
U02dah4 wrote: Yes i take Junith - i prefer her to celestine shes more cost efficient and - im useing her for her +1 ++ Aura unlike celestine who gets confused and starts thinking shes a CC character and gets out of position
OML i would never take as a primary detatchment but a couple of units can be good when combined with BR - namely backfield objective sitting battlesisters with a heavy bolter and domminions. Both gain more benefit than from BR. As a couple of extra miracle dice is never a problem and your HB gets more accurate if they dont get wiped
I dont think its as good a pairing with VH though
As to denial i dont think you have to pure denial but you can CAP their VP or make it harder - eg im running 6 vehicles at 2vp a piece that i cant easily prltect as the easy 12 to score or 5 characters that means they have to kill them all to get 15 - and i can probably protect atleast 1
You're not really capping either of those though, you're still giving him 12-15 "easy points" on both of those secondaries. In our case, with the way our army is built, I don't think maybe denying 3 VP if they either can't get the last character or choose to go after vehicles is really worth cutting out options that would give us an advantage on the table. Sure, an Exorcist is worth 3VP if they kill it, but it also could just shellack their anti-tank guns and deny 6-9VP just by killing the units that would have gotten them. That's more what I'm saying I guess; that, due to the way our army works, the best way to deny the Purge the Enemy secondaries is to...purge our enemy, rather than purge vehicles/characters out of the list. Or you just take pure VH and hope they're relying on AP-2 guns to tank hunt.
I also vastly prefer OoML as a mono army. VH and BR are still likely to be just straight up superior but OOML just works better on its own. Almost all of their value is gained in Junith, the extra MD, the +1 to hit for losing a squad member, and not needing extra detachments to fill out slots the way BR does. Taking them as a secondary detachment doesn't really let any of those strengths shine. If I was going to go OOML I would just fill a battalion and be done with it, using the incremental value of reroll 1s to wound, near max CP, and tons of miracle dice to grind out wins. Also synergizes well with just a ton of combi-plasmas and 2ish hospitallers for squads getting the +1 to hit.
12 but 12 is still less than 15 and its tough to not give 15 as you say. As to the exorcist I wouldn't run it anyway - a lone exorcist is to vulnerable and if you multi exorcist you don't have enough infantry to do what i want to mission wise.
12 might be 12 but if putting 15 on the board gives me the tools to neuter their anti-vehicle down enough that they can only get 9, I still end up in the black to a list that put 6 rhinos out for freebie VP.
(Also it looks like you're misunderstanding that 12-15. 12 is the easy VP for Bring it Down, 15 is the easy VP for assassinate.)
As for the rest...well it's a good thing the edition rewards objective play a bit more than killing things now.
I've got the painting bug again and, with the new releases, i'm going to pick up a bunch of the new SoB stuff.
There's a chance i'll want to start playing again but, i've been out of the loop since 6th edition. Would someone be able to recommend a decent 1000pt list for me? Ideally something that could be used as a good core to expand on in the future
Things are up in the air right now with 9th edition, so it might be difficult to say for sure. I also am getting into sisters, and here is what I came up with for my 1000 point army, not necessarily optimized, but I think it will be fun.
Battalion--Bloody Rose
Canoness, chainsword and holy fire, takes the relic sword (I have a really cool kitbash planned for her)
Priest
3x6 battle sisters squads, two with meltas and power swords, one with a heavy bolter.
8 Repentia
Exorcist
Squad of 4 Mortifiers
Rhino
The mortifiers came out really nice in the shift to 8th (I was always planning on the heavy bolter loadout) and I really love the idea of a party bus of repentia, cannoness, and priest. The exorcist is a bit pricey on points, but the long-range firepower is hard to replace with anything else. Also, I just painted mine, and it looks amazing.
Don't give basic battle sisters melee weapons, even in bloody rose 3 S3 attacks hitting on 4s don't accomplish much. Don't mix heavy weapons and assault weapons on an infantry squad, no real reason to take 6 sisters over 5 since all you're doing is making blast work better against you, go 10 or go 5. Unless you add another rhino, then the odd number squads can be good for fitting characters in.
With the setup you have you could drop the meltas, powerswords, and 3 extra sisters for a savings of 111 points. This would let you either fill in with more mortifiers/penitent engines, take a unit of Seraphim, bulk out 2 of the squads to 10 girl units, you could take Celestians who ARE good with melee weapons and extra meltas. Tons of good options.
No 15 is the maximum for assassinate - its not easy VP because with only 5 characters they are not scoreing it unless your basically tabled and if theyve tabled you they have probably won anyway and 15 wont matter
I am wondering if im approaching listbuilding wrong though
If i take
While we stand we fight
Engage on all fronts
Psychic ritual
Take coteaz junith a canonness as the three most expensive models ditch my rhinos and huddle in a footslogging circle in the middle.
Its an all or nothing strategy
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something like this (as a soup variant)
Don't give basic battle sisters melee weapons, even in bloody rose 3 S3 attacks hitting on 4s don't accomplish much. Don't mix heavy weapons and assault weapons on an infantry squad, no real reason to take 6 sisters over 5 since all you're doing is making blast work better against you, go 10 or go 5. Unless you add another rhino, then the odd number squads can be good for fitting characters in.
With the setup you have you could drop the meltas, powerswords, and 3 extra sisters for a savings of 111 points. This would let you either fill in with more mortifiers/penitent engines, take a unit of Seraphim, bulk out 2 of the squads to 10 girl units, you could take Celestians who ARE good with melee weapons and extra meltas. Tons of good options.
I think that was not quite clear--it is two squads with a powersword and two meltas, and one squad with a heavy bolter. I originally was planing on doing 4 squads, two with stormbolters and two with heavy bolters, but I felt like my list was light on anti-tank, especially considering my meta, so I was thinking of doing the meltas. Though I could probably switch the squad leaders to combi-meltas instead of swords, since my FLGS is having trouble getting basic sisters, so I need one more box of them to build. Hmmm...
Meltaguns have had a decrease in points from 14 to 10 points.
Given that the meta as 9th starts will likely have more vehicles, will it be worthwhile for foot lists to take melta?
Yes they are shorter range, but given 1. Smaller table size and 2. more need to contest objectives and be “in your face”, including vía outflank, is there a place for Meltaguns again?
I plan on taking BR foot Sisters, so the idea of them getting close to my opponent and having 1 or 2 meltaguns in most squads seems like a decent options. One BSS squad with 2 meltaguns at 75 points (8th ed cost would have been 73), given how costs have gone up across the board, isn’t a bad option IMO
I figure taking a couple of melta-melta-combimelta squads could be worthwhile. Maybe take a cherub in the unit for the free MD to use on a key damage roll.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm definitely looking into going pure VH, but how do people feel about Arco-flagellants with a Preacher in a Rhino as kind of a melee cruise missile? They don't care about what order they're in so they'll fit well in a pure VH detachment. If there are other transports in the list it'll saturate the anti-tank well, especially if there are also Exorcists (and there will be in my lists).
I don't know how Arcos made out with the points changes, so please feel free to enlighten me if they went up a ton and are now crap.
Well previously I did play with 6 Arcos and they did serious work. Sisters Repentia overshadowed them with STR 8, but now that the Repentia are STR 7, the comparison gets closer, against more targets, so ther's probably a definite place for them. 2 wounds with FnP, and a ton o attacks, its just not too bad at all.
Yeah they reverted it to how it used to be in older editions - you apply modifers as a whole using typical order of operations, rather than by model and then by weapon.
So now it is x2 and then +1. Damn. Seems like Repentias is a unit that just gets worse in every edition. I miss the days when they could take out Land Raiders.
Agusto wrote: So now it is x2 and then +1. Damn. Seems like Repentias is a unit that just gets worse in every edition. I miss the days when they could take out Land Raiders.
ZergSmasher wrote: I figure taking a couple of melta-melta-combimelta squads could be worthwhile. Maybe take a cherub in the unit for the free MD to use on a key damage roll.
Nah, 5 points is too much for a maybe bonus to one shooting attack. The simulacrum is definitely a must have on those squads but the intercessor cherub is decidedly meh.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm definitely looking into going pure VH, but how do people feel about Arco-flagellants with a Preacher in a Rhino as kind of a melee cruise missile? They don't care about what order they're in so they'll fit well in a pure VH detachment. If there are other transports in the list it'll saturate the anti-tank well, especially if there are also Exorcists (and there will be in my lists).
I don't know how Arcos made out with the points changes, so please feel free to enlighten me if they went up a ton and are now crap.
Well previously I did play with 6 Arcos and they did serious work. Sisters Repentia overshadowed them with STR 8, but now that the Repentia are STR 7, the comparison gets closer, against more targets, so ther's probably a definite place for them. 2 wounds with FnP, and a ton o attacks, its just not too bad at all.
Arcos are great for being a solid, relatively cheap melee threat that's totally conviction agnostic. They also bypass bloody rose's serious elite slot issues. 1.5 to 2 repentia per arco seems about right unless you're trying to run 2 squads of zephyrim for bloody rose lists.
For any other conviction I would never have taken repentia over Arcos, even when they were S8. With Arcos being even better by comparison and rhinos finally not being trash due to the way 9th works, a unit or two of arcos could be a sweet objective sweeper.
I'm going to start by building what's in the army box and shoving them in an extra Rhino I've had kicking around. Then its a contest between the two units to earn their own transport.
Without vehicle saturation I think Sisters will need to take horde MSU and be able to get close and personal to contest objectives while also taking high-damage weapons. To that end I think basic 5-model Sister squads with 2 meltaguns in Bloody Rose could give us that duality we need and in a relatively inexpensive package (75 pts where it was 73 pts in 8th).
I am thinking of taking 2 Battalions for 12 squads of 5-Sisters with dual meltaguns (900 points) backed by Repentia, Celestians, Seraphim, and characters.
So much ObSec allows us to contest multiple objectives vs elite opponents (which is where I believe the meta will start). And with around 38 meltaguns and some combiplasmas in the list i am planning, that should handle most elite / tanky lists.
The list will only have about 110 models, with all but the characters being single-wound models, so it gives target saturation of single-wound models and for “thin them out” will only give up 11 points if they wipe out all models (unlikely). I imagine a large blob buffed by Canonesses and Imagifiers going for mid table and then branching out to objectives while a few ObSec units and Seraphim come in from off table to contest objectives or harass.
davidgr33n wrote: Without vehicle saturation I think Sisters will need to take horde MSU and be able to get close and personal to contest objectives while also taking high-damage weapons. To that end I think basic 5-model Sister squads with 2 meltaguns in Bloody Rose could give us that duality we need and in a relatively inexpensive package (75 pts where it was 73 pts in 8th).
I am thinking of taking 2 Battalions for 12 squads of 5-Sisters with dual meltaguns (900 points) backed by Repentia, Celestians, Seraphim, and characters.
So much ObSec allows us to contest multiple objectives vs elite opponents (which is where I believe the meta will start). And with around 38 meltaguns and some combiplasmas in the list i am planning, that should handle most elite / tanky lists.
The list will only have about 110 models, with all but the characters being single-wound models, so it gives target saturation of single-wound models and for “thin them out” will only give up 11 points if they wipe out all models (unlikely). I imagine a large blob buffed by Canonesses and Imagifiers going for mid table and then branching out to objectives while a few ObSec units and Seraphim come in from off table to contest objectives or harass.
Why bloodyrose? What is it really gaining you on BSS squads? Don't get me wrong, taking bloody rose for the repentia, celestian, seraphim, w/e is fine but double or triple melta BSS are way better as VH or Argent Shroud than BR. In this particular setup you've suggested, at least one battalion should be VH.
(another side note is that you'll want the sergeant and a battle sister to be the ones with melta if you're only running 2. No reason not to keep LD 8 when a Combi-melta and melta cost the same).
The biggest flaw I can see in a list like this is that it falls down super hard to an opponent with infiltrate, or just one that can see what you're doing and gets first turn. With how slow the list is, body blocking you with scouts or nurglings or jumping a fast moving vehicle in front of your lines could potentially trip you up enough that it ends up being as late as turn 3 before you actually hit the objectives.
It seems like a really strong anti-meta option, it just needs to be tweaked enough that you can jump at least a few things out to grab an early lead.
(the list is also boring as piss but that's a totally separate issue.)
Why mono-Rose?
I’ve thought of breaking out one battalion as VH but BR gives all my squads duality - without buffs one 5-model BSS Squad can still make 12 attacks at Str3 AP-1 and with buffs 17x Str4 AP-1 attacks.
Sisters gonna have to get close this edition so the more tools we take to get up close and personal the harder we’ll be. Granted VH can leave some units back and have that nice ignore AP1 and 6+++ natively, I’d have to play a few games and see.
Superiors would take Combi-Meltas I just didn’t specify, but also considering them taking Infernos along with their bolters in addition to 2 meltas in the squad.
Sisters are slow, that’s an issue but if we take transports and opponent gets first turn as you say those transports are toast anyway. Zephyrim are expensive alternatives and not competitive anymore. Yes sure an opponent can put up roadblocks it’s part of the difficulty we have- I plan to outflank at least 5 BSS squads most games which is part of my mitigation. What would you suggest?
Boring is relative. I would prefer the old days of meltas popping out of immolators but until our transports get some gimmicks or a price reduction I’m ok with this list. And I’d love to put my beautiful organs or Morties out but with how prevalent AT is gonna be they’ll be gone by T2.
It’s ok, I like this list and think it could start off 9th pretty well.
Something to consider davidgr33n would be to abandon the double Battalion and utilize some of the other Sisters units for different roles at the low cost of 1 PPM and Objective Secured:
Dominions on foot kited out the same as the BSS give you a pregame opportunity to advance up the table. Not as good as an infiltrating unit, but still added mobility
Celestians, especially near a Canoness, give you much punchier unit that a Battle Sisters Squad. Much more attacks and a perfect target for a Imagifier Strength boost.
And if you really need more slots in your army, the Patrol adds a lot for 2 CP and 1 HQ/Troop compared to a second Battalion.
Why mono-Rose?
I’ve thought of breaking out one battalion as VH but BR gives all my squads duality - without buffs one 5-model BSS Squad can still make 12 attacks at Str3 AP-1 and with buffs 17x Str4 AP-1 attacks.
Sisters gonna have to get close this edition so the more tools we take to get up close and personal the harder we’ll be. Granted VH can leave some units back and have that nice ignore AP1 and 6+++ natively, I’d have to play a few games and see.
Superiors would take Combi-Meltas I just didn’t specify, but also considering them taking Infernos along with their bolters in addition to 2 meltas in the squad.
Sisters are slow, that’s an issue but if we take transports and opponent gets first turn as you say those transports are toast anyway. Zephyrim are expensive alternatives and not competitive anymore. Yes sure an opponent can put up roadblocks it’s part of the difficulty we have- I plan to outflank at least 5 BSS squads most games which is part of my mitigation. What would you suggest?
Boring is relative. I would prefer the old days of meltas popping out of immolators but until our transports get some gimmicks or a price reduction I’m ok with this list. And I’d love to put my beautiful organs or Morties out but with how prevalent AT is gonna be they’ll be gone by T2.
It’s ok, I like this list and think it could start off 9th pretty well.
I disagree about Zephyrim being non-competitive, but that's for a different discussion.
I also found a video of something...closeish to this list being played (though he makes some pretty nonsensical choices like triple exo in an infantry spam list , no imagifiers in VH (????????) and a max squad of Seraphim for some unfathomable reason, but hey...it's sort of close to what you were thinking. At least should give you an idea of how quickly infantry dies to marines.
HQ – Bloody Rose
Celestine
170
Troops
5x Sisters – 2 Storm bolters
61
Fast Attack
10 Seraphim – 4 inferno pistols, power weapon, plasma pistol
180
9 Zephyrim
180
HQ – Valorous Heart
Canoness
50
WARLORD: indomitable Belief
RELIC: Book of St Lucious
Missionary
45
Troops
10 Sisters – 2 melta
130
10 Sisters – 2 melta
130
10 Sisters – 2 melta
130
10 Sisters – 2 melta
130
5 Sisters – 2 storm bolters
61
5 Sisters – 2 storm bolters
61
Heavy Support
3x Exorcist – good missiles
585
1998
10CP
I really have no idea what he was going for here. To not kill 2 invictors that are literally inside your frontlines for 3 turns is disgraceful and it's pretty clear he has no goddam idea what he's doing, but hey, at least you'd have a frame of reference for how badly things can go.
(Also, someone with a stronger stomach than me watch the whole video and figure out wtf happened to his exorcists? He's supposed to have 3 and I never saw a single one.).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGSV-_G8-vE&t=1452s
I think the biggest hurtle for Sisters, and it's not even that big IMO, is that our Troops aren't that great at melee. Better than a Tau Firewarrior for sure but not SM great, not even Pink Horror great.
Leave melee to the Repentia/Arco's/Calidus/Evorsor/Cannoness/Inquisitor units. 5 BR BSS are going to struggle to dent anything and even if you do manage to win a melee over an objective and drive the opposing unit off, those 5 Sisters, assuming any are alive, won't be durable enough to resist a counter assault next turn.
I plan to put Sisters in Rhinos and all will be 10 strong. Turn 1 is more or less the "get into postion turn". If I get first turn I will probably be on at least 3 objectives (depending on mission of course). If my opponent pops a rhino or two my Sisters get out and most likely won't be in range to be assaulted (again, some armies could probably be able to make a turn 1 assault) but 10 girls will hold better than 5 and if they are VH they are even more tanky.
If my opponents are shooting anti-tank weapons at my Rhinos that means they aren't shooting at my Excorsists or Mortifier/Penitent engines; units that have tooth enough to punch back and hard.
I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.
I run my front-line battle sisters in units of 8, to leave space in the Rhino for characters.
What I have noticed is that geared up squads came out much better after the 9th Edition points revisions than the minimal squads the optimizers like to run.
The very common 5 BSS with 2 SB squad went from 49 points to 61 points. That's up 12 points or 24.5%.
My totally cool but unoptimized 8 BSS squad with Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Simularcum Imperialis, and SS with Combi-Melta and Powersword when from 124 points to 133 points. An increase of 9 points or 7.3%. That right, it increased less points than the 8th edition optimized squad because GW kept steady or decreased many upgrade cost.
I guess if you ever wondered why GW was saying it only cost them one squad going from 8th to 9th, it because they actually use unit upgrades rather than bare bones units. This makes me a happy camper. Time for everyone to start thinking about what weapons are actually now viable given the revised points cost.
jivardi wrote: I think the biggest hurtle for Sisters, and it's not even that big IMO, is that our Troops aren't that great at melee. Better than a Tau Firewarrior for sure but not SM great, not even Pink Horror great.
Leave melee to the Repentia/Arco's/Calidus/Evorsor/Cannoness/Inquisitor units. 5 BR BSS are going to struggle to dent anything and even if you do manage to win a melee over an objective and drive the opposing unit off, those 5 Sisters, assuming any are alive, won't be durable enough to resist a counter assault next turn.
I plan to put Sisters in Rhinos and all will be 10 strong. Turn 1 is more or less the "get into postion turn". If I get first turn I will probably be on at least 3 objectives (depending on mission of course). If my opponent pops a rhino or two my Sisters get out and most likely won't be in range to be assaulted (again, some armies could probably be able to make a turn 1 assault) but 10 girls will hold better than 5 and if they are VH they are even more tanky.
If my opponents are shooting anti-tank weapons at my Rhinos that means they aren't shooting at my Excorsists or Mortifier/Penitent engines; units that have tooth enough to punch back and hard.
I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.
I think it's actually broader than that. Our troops just straight up don't do anything. They're not cheap enough to be massed screens like guardsman, they're not expensive enough to have the statline/options to hold out on their own like intercessors. They're just kinda...nothing. They're so jack of all trades that they've pigeonholed themselves into not being able to accomplish anything.
Sidebar, if you're on any objective that isn't in your deployment zone, most CQC armies will be able to charge you turn 1.
I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.
I'm a bit new to 40k and I may be entirely wrong about the rules here. But I can't see any situation in with a squad of 10 sisters is more durable then two squads of 5 outside of using the squad size as a justification for giving the unit the simulacrum/cherub.
Based on battle reports I've watched, I'd argue that the two minimum squads are more durable for two reasons.
1) The way morale works benefits the smaller squad. Even if it loses 4 units it'll only have to roll 4 or less (Assuming you leave the superior as the last woman standing). Meanwhile if the 10 man unit has poor luck and loses 5 or more models you risk genuinely failing the morale test.
2) Overkill benefits smaller squads. Because the attacker has to declare which shots are aimed at which unit of sisters before they know which shots hit it means that even if they have the firepower to kill 10 sisters, they might accidentally overkill one of the units and leave the second unit alive.
It also seems to me that the smaller squads have better firepower because
1) You get the Sister Superior for the same cost as a normal sister even though she's better with her extra melee attacks and access to the combi-weapons.
2) Smaller squads give you the option to have twice as many special weapons per sister. I've seen people complain about the cost increase of the Stormbolter but the stormbolter is still 100% extra firepower for just 25% of the cost of a sister.
If you compare a 10 man squad with 2 stormbolters to 2x 5 with 4 stormbolters that's 116 vs 122 points and what you get is 12 vs 14 Rapid Fire and 13 vs 16 melee attacks. The only place where the larger squad seems to have the advantage is fighting back against a charge, since to fight back you have to -survive- the charge.
I've been seeing a number of lists including power swords on the sister superior - is that because of WYSIWYG on the models? Is the cost for AP-2 (on power sword) worth it versus +1 attack for a chainsword?
I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.
I'm a bit new to 40k and I may be entirely wrong about the rules here. But I can't see any situation in with a squad of 10 sisters is more durable then two squads of 5 outside of using the squad size as a justification for giving the unit the simulacrum/cherub.
Based on battle reports I've watched, I'd argue that the two minimum squads are more durable for two reasons.
1) The way morale works benefits the smaller squad. Even if it loses 4 units it'll only have to roll 4 or less (Assuming you leave the superior as the last woman standing). Meanwhile if the 10 man unit has poor luck and loses 5 or more models you risk genuinely failing the morale test.
2) Overkill benefits smaller squads. Because the attacker has to declare which shots are aimed at which unit of sisters before they know which shots hit it means that even if they have the firepower to kill 10 sisters, they might accidentally overkill one of the units and leave the second unit alive.
It also seems to me that the smaller squads have better firepower because
1) You get the Sister Superior for the same cost as a normal sister even though she's better with her extra melee attacks and access to the combi-weapons.
2) Smaller squads give you the option to have twice as many special weapons per sister. I've seen people complain about the cost increase of the Stormbolter but the stormbolter is still 100% extra firepower for just 25% of the cost of a sister.
If you compare a 10 man squad with 2 stormbolters to 2x 5 with 4 stormbolters that's 116 vs 122 points and what you get is 12 vs 14 Rapid Fire and 13 vs 16 melee attacks. The only place where the larger squad seems to have the advantage is fighting back against a charge, since to fight back you have to -survive- the charge.
Yeah, Sisters in general want to be MSU and it's been that way for a long time. You get 2 extra special weapons slots and 1 extra superior, and the added surviability of being MSU, and there's no baked-in incentive to field larger units like some armies have.
That said, the reasons you might want a larger unit are:
Slot Limitations [if you want bodies, but can't get enough because you're out of appropriate slots/ability to take that unit]
Buff Efficiency [large units make stratagems and other single-target buff much more efficient]
Close Quarters Combat [if two units charge together against a unit that can fight back, and the first one doesn't kill it off [making the second unit superfluous and overkill], the second unit stands to take unnecessary casualties from a combat interrupt]
Given that BSS are troops, though, they're
Not bound by the rule of 3 and in the most numerous slot
Not usually the target for your buff abilities and stratagems unless you're having a bad day
Pretty crud at CQC anyway
Yeah, you should be fielding MSUBSS.
And that's before considering that minimum count of MSUBSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.
And that's before considering that minimum count of MSUBSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.
One thing I'm unclear on is what the actual benefit of using the Retribution Squad as your heavy weapons platform is outside of stratagems. Their bonuses is that they don't get the -1 penalty for fire and move and they get to have 4 heavy weapons per squad instead of 1. However that raises the question. Do you even want 4 heavy weapons in the same squad? They're really expensive and sisters are really fragile.
Compare them with putting say a Multi-Melta gun in each of your 5-10 man Celestial squads. Assuming you keep them close to a canoness, they have the same accuracy as the Retributors while moving thanks to their reroll and 50% better accuracy while standing still (75% chance to hit instead of 50% chance to hit). Being spread out they are now also not trivially wiped out by a single alpha strike.
I suppose the problem you quickly run into is the preciously limited elite troop slots.
Agusto wrote: Have they changed the way you calculate strength in 9th? Shouldn't an Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior still bring the Repentias up to S8?
No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dunno if anyone caught it but Transports are much faster now.
And that's before considering that minimum count of MSUBSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.
One thing I'm unclear on is what the actual benefit of using the Retribution Squad as your heavy weapons platform is outside of stratagems. Their bonuses is that they don't get the -1 penalty for fire and move and they get to have 4 heavy weapons per squad instead of 1. However that raises the question. Do you even want 4 heavy weapons in the same squad? They're really expensive and sisters are really fragile.
Compare them with putting say a Multi-Melta gun in each of your 5-10 man Celestial squads. Assuming you keep them close to a canoness, they have the same accuracy as the Retributors while moving thanks to their reroll and 50% better accuracy while standing still (75% chance to hit instead of 50% chance to hit). Being spread out they are now also not trivially wiped out by a single alpha strike.
I suppose the problem you quickly run into is the preciously limited elite troop slots.
Sure I mean you add ablative wounds to that squad. i know everyone is saying its better to have 5's because : blast weapons but I'm not too sure i will be doing THAT.
Jancoran wrote: No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.
Not really. You first did model's stats, then weapon stats. It's more of that most(all?) model buffs were + rather than doubling but in 8th if you have double model's S and then weapon that has +1 you would have same order as now. First double, then add.
Jancoran wrote: No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.
Not really. You first did model's stats, then weapon stats. It's more of that most(all?) model buffs were + rather than doubling but in 8th if you have double model's S and then weapon that has +1 you would have same order as now. First double, then add.
Um. No. 8E adds and then doubles. In 9E you dont. Not the same.
Jancoran wrote: No. You multiply before adding now they reversed it.
Not really. You first did model's stats, then weapon stats. It's more of that most(all?) model buffs were + rather than doubling but in 8th if you have double model's S and then weapon that has +1 you would have same order as now. First double, then add.
Um. No. 8E adds and then doubles. In 9E you dont. Not the same.
Inaccurate. In 8E, you follow PEMDAS, but you first check what affects the MODEL, then apply any weapon buffs.
So, if you had a weapon that was SX2 on a S4 model, but the MODEL gained +1 Strength from a buff, you'd strike at S10.
If you had a weapon that was SX2+1 on a S7 model you'd strike at S15.
CleansingFire wrote: I've been seeing a number of lists including power swords on the sister superior - is that because of WYSIWYG on the models? Is the cost for AP-2 (on power sword) worth it versus +1 attack for a chainsword?
Powerswords are NEVER the right option. Even if you want to take a power weapon, the maul is a far better option, especially in bloody rose who gives it AP-2.
Against marines a maul does more damage base than a sword does with bloody rose Ap-4.
The imagifier helps the sword more against marines, but at that point the maul is doubling out eldar and guard and wounding bikes and eradicators on 3s.
And that's before considering that minimum count of MSUBSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.
One thing I'm unclear on is what the actual benefit of using the Retribution Squad as your heavy weapons platform is outside of stratagems. Their bonuses is that they don't get the -1 penalty for fire and move and they get to have 4 heavy weapons per squad instead of 1. However that raises the question. Do you even want 4 heavy weapons in the same squad? They're really expensive and sisters are really fragile.
Compare them with putting say a Multi-Melta gun in each of your 5-10 man Celestial squads. Assuming you keep them close to a canoness, they have the same accuracy as the Retributors while moving thanks to their reroll and 50% better accuracy while standing still (75% chance to hit instead of 50% chance to hit). Being spread out they are now also not trivially wiped out by a single alpha strike.
I suppose the problem you quickly run into is the preciously limited elite troop slots.
The thing is, without the rets bonuses and stratagem, none of our heavy weapons are worth it AT ALL on infantry. HBs, HFs, and Multimeltas are all mediocre to terrible so if you're not taking rets, you shouldn't be taking any of the heavy weapons.
I'm just not buying into the MSU hype. My sisters were 10 strong in 8th. The difference now, depending on gear, is around 20 pts. That's not enough to convince me 5 is better than 10, not when 9th is about durability; not min-maxing for CP gain.
I'm a bit new to 40k and I may be entirely wrong about the rules here. But I can't see any situation in with a squad of 10 sisters is more durable then two squads of 5 outside of using the squad size as a justification for giving the unit the simulacrum/cherub.
Based on battle reports I've watched, I'd argue that the two minimum squads are more durable for two reasons.
1) The way morale works benefits the smaller squad. Even if it loses 4 units it'll only have to roll 4 or less (Assuming you leave the superior as the last woman standing). Meanwhile if the 10 man unit has poor luck and loses 5 or more models you risk genuinely failing the morale test.
2) Overkill benefits smaller squads. Because the attacker has to declare which shots are aimed at which unit of sisters before they know which shots hit it means that even if they have the firepower to kill 10 sisters, they might accidentally overkill one of the units and leave the second unit alive.
It also seems to me that the smaller squads have better firepower because
1) You get the Sister Superior for the same cost as a normal sister even though she's better with her extra melee attacks and access to the combi-weapons.
2) Smaller squads give you the option to have twice as many special weapons per sister. I've seen people complain about the cost increase of the Stormbolter but the stormbolter is still 100% extra firepower for just 25% of the cost of a sister.
If you compare a 10 man squad with 2 stormbolters to 2x 5 with 4 stormbolters that's 116 vs 122 points and what you get is 12 vs 14 Rapid Fire and 13 vs 16 melee attacks. The only place where the larger squad seems to have the advantage is fighting back against a charge, since to fight back you have to -survive- the charge.
Yeah, Sisters in general want to be MSU and it's been that way for a long time. You get 2 extra special weapons slots and 1 extra superior, and the added surviability of being MSU, and there's no baked-in incentive to field larger units like some armies have.
That said, the reasons you might want a larger unit are:
Slot Limitations [if you want bodies, but can't get enough because you're out of appropriate slots/ability to take that unit]
Buff Efficiency [large units make stratagems and other single-target buff much more efficient]
Close Quarters Combat [if two units charge together against a unit that can fight back, and the first one doesn't kill it off [making the second unit superfluous and overkill], the second unit stands to take unnecessary casualties from a combat interrupt]
Given that BSS are troops, though, they're
Not bound by the rule of 3 and in the most numerous slot
Not usually the target for your buff abilities and stratagems unless you're having a bad day
Pretty crud at CQC anyway
Yeah, you should be fielding MSUBSS.
And that's before considering that minimum count of MSUBSS opens more space in your list for units that are actually good and will carry weight like Celestians, Repentia, Exorcists, Rets, etc.
Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.
I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.
I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.
There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.
There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.
It's more that they have strategies that they have and wanting those to affect more models. If Plague marines lost those strats you'd see them in 5 man squads.
BSS don't have anything that makes a 10-15 squad super killy or survivable.
BSS don't have anything that makes a 10-15 squad super killy or survivable.
Well, if that 15 man squad happens to contain flamers you could do quite a lot of damage to someone with Judgement of the Faithful. A 15 man squad of Celestians could probably also make worthwhile use of Exceptional Proficiency. I'm not really that convinced about how worthwhile either is though because ultimately it's mostly boltgun fire and boltgun fire is kind of meh.
Having 3 5 man squads costs the same as 1 15 man squads and 3 5 man squads will be more resistant to moral much more resistant to blast weapons are able to take more special weapons and unlike in 8th dont give away kill points
My 60 Sisters of the VH did just fine in 8th and morale was a lot more painful for squads of 10.
I can theory craft all day but until my Sisters hit the table and face the local meta I'm going to stick with what worked in 8th. You still had to take and hold objectives in 8th. It just wasn't as big of a focus because you also got points for killing more units.
Sisters don't have the durability to deny opponents Attrition secondary when in 5 man squads. If I kill 3 of your 5 man units you need to kill 3 of my 10 man units to deny me attrition. If I'm rolling with my DG and I have 10 man units of PM's it's even harder for you to deny me Attrition points. And you better believe if I see your list and the vast majority of your T3 models are in squads of 5 I'm taking Attrition as a secondary.
My 60 Sisters of the VH did just fine in 8th and morale was a lot more painful for squads of 10.
I can theory craft all day but until my Sisters hit the table and face the local meta I'm going to stick with what worked in 8th. You still had to take and hold objectives in 8th. It just wasn't as big of a focus because you also got points for killing more units.
Sisters don't have the durability to deny opponents Attrition secondary when in 5 man squads. If I kill 3 of your 5 man units you need to kill 3 of my 10 man units to deny me attrition. If I'm rolling with my DG and I have 10 man units of PM's it's even harder for you to deny me Attrition points. And you better believe if I see your list and the vast majority of your T3 models are in squads of 5 I'm taking Attrition as a secondary.
Aren't many lists going to win Attrition almost by default anyways because of our vehicles tendency to go pop pop pop during the first 2-3 rounds? Unless we choose to go something like fully infantry VH which is actually looking somewhat attractive under the scoring system.
My 60 Sisters of the VH did just fine in 8th and morale was a lot more painful for squads of 10.
I can theory craft all day but until my Sisters hit the table and face the local meta I'm going to stick with what worked in 8th. You still had to take and hold objectives in 8th. It just wasn't as big of a focus because you also got points for killing more units.
Sisters don't have the durability to deny opponents Attrition secondary when in 5 man squads. If I kill 3 of your 5 man units you need to kill 3 of my 10 man units to deny me attrition. If I'm rolling with my DG and I have 10 man units of PM's it's even harder for you to deny me Attrition points. And you better believe if I see your list and the vast majority of your T3 models are in squads of 5 I'm taking Attrition as a secondary.
Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.
I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.
I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.
There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.
2x5 is actually more durable than 1x10 and fits to 1 rhino just as well.
On this topic, what about a squad's footprint on the table and the new emphasis on terrain? Any MSU schemes around being more able to get a unit within / wholly within a piece of terrain or X inches of one? I've seen a few batreps and the new maneuver seems to be to move to (but not onto) a terrain feature to enjoy the benefits of having it between you and the enemy, then moving onto in your next turn to control the rules interactions. Same with embark and disembark... any MSU advantage there?
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Looks sweet, I'm not familiar with the model though. What does it do?
The last time the Palatine was stated out was apparently in Third Edition. Back then a Palatine was a Canoness:
-1 W
-1 A
-1 Ld -1 Faith Point each time they contribute
Assuming they do the same thing this time, she would have:
WS 2, BS 2, S3. T3. W4,A3, LD8. SV3+ and maybe cost something like 10 points less then the Canoness?
(Although back then the Celestian Superior also had that statblock and she's a lot weaker now)
Spoletta wrote: In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.
That makes sense. Rumor seems to be they're planning to apply the 1 Captain, 2 Lieutenants rule universally. I'm a bit curious how that impacts the seemingly popular strategy of going 2x Canoness, 1x Celestine and 1x Triumph of Saint Catherine. Will the special characters steal the captain slots and we'll have to use Palatines?
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Looks sweet, I'm not familiar with the model though. What does it do?
The model is new, although the rank is old. Think Space Marine Lt and you can't go far wrong. Whether she will have some new ability or give Sisters a Re-Roll Wounds aura is anybodies guess.
Spoletta wrote: In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.
Why? There's nothing even vaguely hinting that that might be true. Marines getting it is not the same as everyone getting it. Keep in mind that the biggest complaint about marines is their limitless rerolls. This is likely a measure to stop that specifically, not a way to stop every army from bringing captains.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Looks sweet, I'm not familiar with the model though. What does it do?
The last time the Palatine was stated out was apparently in Third Edition. Back then a Palatine was a Canoness:
-1 W
-1 A
-1 Ld -1 Faith Point each time they contribute
Assuming they do the same thing this time, she would have:
WS 2, BS 2, S3. T3. W4,A3, LD8. SV3+ and maybe cost something like 10 points less then the Canoness?
(Although back then the Celestian Superior also had that statblock and she's a lot weaker now)
It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.
Spoletta wrote: In the next codex we will have a limit of 1 canoness per detachment, so they are giving us new HQ choices.
Source for that?
I'm hoping the Palatine is a sign Sisters won't be last to get rules this edition.
Just speculation right now.
T'au limitation wasn't removed, and instead SM are now getting it.
The 2 factions with the most limited HQ selections are being expanded (Sisters and Drukhari). I would say that the chances are high.
It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.
Surely you mean W4, A3.
I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.
It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.
Surely you mean W4, A3.
I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.
The model might be showing ALL the weapon "options"
Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.
I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.
I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.
There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.
What? I'm confused.
1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.
2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.
3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.
Also isn't the maximum number of squads you can bring 12 with a Brigade? I can't imagine what kind of whacky map you're playing on where you feel like 60 BSS spread across 12 squads isn't enough to stand on objective markers for you.
A brigade also means you could take up to 80 Celestians and 50 Dominons if you feel like it although chances are you'll want to spend some of those Elite/Fast slots on something else.
Incidentally in a 2000 point game a maximum infantry army would wield:
3x Canoness, 60 BSS, 80 Celestians and 20 Dominons.
I wonder how most opponents would react if they saw you deploy that.
Corizin wrote: Also isn't the maximum number of squads you can bring 12 with a Brigade? I can't imagine what kind of whacky map you're playing on where you feel like 60 BSS spread across 12 squads isn't enough to stand on objective markers for you.
A brigade also means you could take up to 80 Celestians and 50 Dominons if you feel like it although chances are you'll want to spend some of those Elite/Fast slots on something else.
Incidentally in a 2000 point game a maximum infantry army would wield:
3x Canoness, 60 BSS, 80 Celestians and 20 Dominons.
I wonder how most opponents would react if they saw you deploy that.
Celestians are max squad size 10, so you're limited to 20<=1000, 30<=2000, and 40 >2000. Same for Doms.
That said, I still can't see running out of troops slots for BSS and needing to take reinforced squads.
Hate to break it to you, but the 9th edition rules for matched play limit you to three of each non-Troops, non-DT datasheet regardless of game size. So even a 2001 point game or larger limits you to 30 Celestians max.
Taikishi wrote: Hate to break it to you, but the 9th edition rules for matched play limit you to three of each non-Troops, non-DT datasheet regardless of game size. So even a 2001 point game or larger limits you to 30 Celestians max.
With our very limited range of unit choices building a 3000 point army list following Rule of Three seems like it would be painful so I suppose we should be thankful 2000 is the standard.
It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.
Surely you mean W4, A3.
I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.
At W4 A3, she's completely worthless except for whatever her buff is. Hopefully her buff is good enough to justify her terrible statline then.
The canoness gets: Brazier, blessed blade, powersword, plasma pistol, inferno pistol, null rod, rod of office, chainsword, bolt pistol, bolt gun. Compare that to a primaris Captain getting Bolt gun, different boltgun, powerfist and she has a huge amount of options.
It's just going to be a lieutenant equivalent. WS 2, BS 3, S3, T3, W5, A4, less equipment options, reroll 1s to wound.
Surely you mean W4, A3.
I don't see how she could have much less equipment options then the Canoness, after all the Canoness only gets to choose her favorite flavor of sword+pistol. I guess she probably won't have Rod of Office? Her model implies she gets to keep the 4++ Rosario.
At W4 A3, she's completely worthless except for whatever her buff is. Hopefully her buff is good enough to justify her terrible statline then.
The canoness gets: Brazier, blessed blade, powersword, plasma pistol, inferno pistol, null rod, rod of office, chainsword, bolt pistol, bolt gun. Compare that to a primaris Captain getting Bolt gun, different boltgun, powerfist and she has a huge amount of options.
We can speculate all day about what her statline is going to be. I'm much more concerned about her options. I really hope we get an excellent multi-option kit like the Canoness rather than mono-construction or single option (do you want plasma pistol or bolt pistol?) kit. I'm probably asking for too much given the Canoness kit is rather unique amongst recent GW kits.
alextroy wrote: We can speculate all day about what her statline is going to be. I'm much more concerned about her options. I really hope we get an excellent multi-option kit like the Canoness rather than mono-construction or single option (do you want plasma pistol or bolt pistol?) kit. I'm probably asking for too much given the Canoness kit is rather unique amongst recent GW kits.
If we look at the other sisters kits like the Seraphims, BSS, and Repentia I feel like the overall GW trend for Sisters is to give us just about all the options they think they can cram into a sheet of plastic. The way her arms are positioned in the preview also looks like a multi-pose to me. If they were going to fix her into a single pose with a single piece of equipment wouldn't they give her a more complicated pose like Veridyan?
My bet is that the Rosario hand can alternatively hold a sword.
alextroy wrote: We can speculate all day about what her statline is going to be. I'm much more concerned about her options. I really hope we get an excellent multi-option kit like the Canoness rather than mono-construction or single option (do you want plasma pistol or bolt pistol?) kit. I'm probably asking for too much given the Canoness kit is rather unique amongst recent GW kits.
If we look at the other sisters kits like the Seraphims, BSS, and Repentia I feel like the overall GW trend for Sisters is to give us just about all the options they think they can cram into a sheet of plastic. The way her arms are positioned in the preview also looks like a multi-pose to me. If they were going to fix her into a single pose with a single piece of equipment wouldn't they give her a more complicated pose like Veridyan?
My bet is that the Rosario hand can alternatively hold a sword.
I was still hoping we would get a jump pack option, After all with the lore a large portion of those who eventually become a canoness/palatine came from the seraphim, but i guess they forget how to fly once they get promoted, or gw doesnt want to push out celestine.
I was still hoping we would get a jump pack option, After all with the lore a large portion of those who eventually become a canoness/palatine came from the seraphim, but i guess they forget how to fly once they get promoted, or gw doesnt want to push out celestine.
I do hope they eventually give us an option to Celestine because just about every army list ever containing the same named character feels a bit meh. I'd also love to see the other orders like Sacred Rose get some attention.
The one thing I'm hoping for is some form of aura that upgrades to shooting.
Rerolling 1s to hit or requiring SBs for a stratagem is a bit rough. The ultimate fate is that we rely on bolter fire for a good deal of general ping damage and there isn't a whole lot going on to help make that happen. Compare any other army and their HQs do a lot to help their generic Troop choice. Now, i know we have a bit of buffing in our Rites and are durable, our offensive capacity in melee has a lot of buff options between Hymns, Superior, or anything actually on them (Zealot, Raptorous, multi-hits, even litany only buffs melee for offensive buff). But really with shooting, we have very little synergy and virtually no bonus to hits making negative modifiers challenging to overcome.
I feel like for a T3, the durability is good for as low a T as we have. But there is a real challenge with the shooting to figure out with 9th having some of the melee challenges. I think it will be easier to get into, but harder to control with repentia.
Also, new to Dakka, but long to 40k. Switched over to Sisters from TS as i've been a long time fan but hated their metal figures. Now that we have the plastic range, fully being the Fleur. Let me know if i'm missing something with the above that people run to bypass this in 9th.
What are your opinion on the best pistol for 5 points: plasma pistol or Inferno pistol?
I like Inferno’s potential damage and unlike plasma they don’t kill you on rolls of 1, but their 6” range is so limiting. So it’s a choice between dmg potential vs range.
It's a matter of what model and role you assign to that model. An Inferno Pistol makes more sense on a melee Canoness than a BSS Superior who will spend most her time hanging around objectives.
Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.
I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.
I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.
There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.
What? I'm confused.
1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.
2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.
3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.
I know this is a tactics forum but you play your way, I'll play mine.
I've never liked MSU, not in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th editions. Not going to change now. My W/L record isn't what a person would call excellent but I've won more than I've lost. In my experience max squad sizes have always been better than MSU. The ONLY reason to MSU in 8th was to be able to take 2-3 detachments for CP farming.
I'm not saying I will always field 60 BSS at 2k. I can if I want but I'd most likely save that many girls for 3k and higher.
I'm just not convinced MSU is the way to go. I've seen batreps on YT the past few weeks where MSU armies do good, I've seen batreps where MSU armies fall flat. Certain armies can do MSU better. 5 DG will last a lot longer than 5 BSS. And if I'm understanding the rules for Blast correctly a 2d6 Blast weapon does min. of 2 shots against 5 or fewer, does min. of 3 shots to units of 6-10 and max shots to units above 10 models. So, against 2d3 or 2d6 weapons my 10 girls will face min. of one more shot. So my squads are 5 girls larger, face a min. of 1 more shot to Blast weapons (most of which are real low S or AP which is more or less ignored by VH) and suffer morale LESS than they did in 8th.
davidgr33n wrote: What are your opinion on the best pistol for 5 points: plasma pistol or Inferno pistol?
I like Inferno’s potential damage and unlike plasma they don’t kill you on rolls of 1, but their 6” range is so limiting. So it’s a choice between dmg potential vs range.
I agree with Alextroy here. Inferno pistol either requires you to be out of position or you're on a melee/Seraphim unit. No one else likely wants it. Plasma is for ranged Canoness imo since you're wanting that 12" range anyways for Rapid.with the BSSs you're around. Works well on Seraphim Superiors if you plan on dropping in a Canoness bubble for the Deadly Descent. Its not as great outside the bubble for the cost as your Infernos on them should be handling whatever other high T you're dropping them onto to risk the D2 death on a 1. Maybe an out of place character snipe, but uncommon.
And plasma on a melee Canoness, unless you want Rod, doesn't make much sense to me as the range benefits for the same cost towards the inferno in any scenario.
Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.
I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.
I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.
There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.
What? I'm confused.
1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.
2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.
3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.
I know this is a tactics forum but you play your way, I'll play mine.
I've never liked MSU, not in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th editions. Not going to change now. My W/L record isn't what a person would call excellent but I've won more than I've lost. In my experience max squad sizes have always been better than MSU. The ONLY reason to MSU in 8th was to be able to take 2-3 detachments for CP farming.
I'm not saying I will always field 60 BSS at 2k. I can if I want but I'd most likely save that many girls for 3k and higher.
I'm just not convinced MSU is the way to go. I've seen batreps on YT the past few weeks where MSU armies do good, I've seen batreps where MSU armies fall flat. Certain armies can do MSU better. 5 DG will last a lot longer than 5 BSS. And if I'm understanding the rules for Blast correctly a 2d6 Blast weapon does min. of 2 shots against 5 or fewer, does min. of 3 shots to units of 6-10 and max shots to units above 10 models. So, against 2d3 or 2d6 weapons my 10 girls will face min. of one more shot. So my squads are 5 girls larger, face a min. of 1 more shot to Blast weapons (most of which are real low S or AP which is more or less ignored by VH) and suffer morale LESS than they did in 8th.
I uh, don't care about blasts. They're seriously overhyped From say a battle cannon against a max size unit, it's a near mathematically irrelevant 1 additional wound per turn. Blasts aren't the reason to MSU. The reason to MSU is that you're more resilient that a large squad, and your're more tactically flexible. Against units from 6-10, it's effect is even more negligibly small.
Also, like, I fail to see what point you're making about 5 DG versus 5 BSS. Sisters do MSUreally well because there's aggressively no reason to do otherwise baked into the faction. The question isn't lasting longer; though 8 BSS in 1 squad will last less long than 8 BSS in 2 squads.
Remember, two squads can stand near each other to effective act like 1 unit most of the time for things like "how many models do I have holding the point" or "how much fire can I put on the target", but they can also go their own way, so they're almost strictly better even if you don't take advantage of things like special weapons. I've already mentioned the reasons to be not-MSU, which are generally related to melee offense and buffs efficiency, neither of which are likely relevant to BSS as basic troops.
davidgr33n wrote: What are your opinion on the best pistol for 5 points: plasma pistol or Inferno pistol?
I like Inferno’s potential damage and unlike plasma they don’t kill you on rolls of 1, but their 6” range is so limiting. So it’s a choice between dmg potential vs range.
Inferno. If you're gonna take plasma, just pay 5 more points for the combi-plasma, it's more than twice as good.
Multiple 5's would be required on an objective to hold it with the same efficiency as a 10 girl squad. Unless you go with multiple detachments you get max 30 BSS in a detachment. Plus, unless you buy a Rhino for every squad, those 5 girls are footslogging. Sure, on some boards you can probably get away with that but if you get first turn you want your Obsec units on objectives on turn 1 if possible and walking across the board is not going to be all that smart in 9th.
I can take 60 BSS, 10 girls are hurt more by Blast than 5 but not to a large degree. Morale is more easily failed with larger girls but the morale is a lot less severe. And that's what miracle dice are for. I always have at least one die in my pool with a value of 1. Even if you fail you are most likely going to lose fewer models in 9th than in 8th.
I play VH and so more bodies means the Order trait is more valuable than with 5 girl squads. I'll hope to get some games in next week now that some of the locals will have their Indomitus boxes this weekend. I'll be able to properly playtest a mechanized list. My Sisters will have special weapons but the job of the girls is to hold objectives, not punch things in the face in melee or shoot things off the board in the shooting phase.
There is a reason DG players don't take 5 man squads of PM's in 9th. High durability and FNP is wasted on 5 man squads.
What? I'm confused.
1: 2x5 on an objective is exactly as efficient as 1x10, with the added bonus of that if that objective isn't contested by 5-9 enemy models [IE, most objectives], I would still have 5 BSS available for maneuver and to potentially simultaneously hold 2 objectives instead of having one unit with twice the value being tied down holding a point.
2: Yes, you can take 60 BSS. Do you actually want to take 60 BSS? At the very minimum, the cost of those extra 30 BSS that are just warm bodies with bolters could buy me multiple squads of Seraphim, Zephyrim, Repentia, Celestians, Arcoflails, Exorcists that are all going to carry more weight, hit harder, and give me more flexibility and capability, or more special weapons for the BSS I have to make the existing 30 more efficient, etc.. Or hell, if you actually think transports are going to go up in value while the board and thus the importance of movement shrinks, I could buy enough rhinos to mount all 30 of my other BSS and still have available points.
3: Uh, a feel no pain or save improvement is exactly as mathematically efficient on 2 5-person units as it is on 1 10-person.
I know this is a tactics forum but you play your way, I'll play mine.
I've never liked MSU, not in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th editions. Not going to change now. My W/L record isn't what a person would call excellent but I've won more than I've lost. In my experience max squad sizes have always been better than MSU. The ONLY reason to MSU in 8th was to be able to take 2-3 detachments for CP farming.
I'm not saying I will always field 60 BSS at 2k. I can if I want but I'd most likely save that many girls for 3k and higher.
I'm just not convinced MSU is the way to go. I've seen batreps on YT the past few weeks where MSU armies do good, I've seen batreps where MSU armies fall flat. Certain armies can do MSU better. 5 DG will last a lot longer than 5 BSS. And if I'm understanding the rules for Blast correctly a 2d6 Blast weapon does min. of 2 shots against 5 or fewer, does min. of 3 shots to units of 6-10 and max shots to units above 10 models. So, against 2d3 or 2d6 weapons my 10 girls will face min. of one more shot. So my squads are 5 girls larger, face a min. of 1 more shot to Blast weapons (most of which are real low S or AP which is more or less ignored by VH) and suffer morale LESS than they did in 8th.
Where the hell did you hear 2? That's not a thing.
davidgr33n wrote: What are your opinion on the best pistol for 5 points: plasma pistol or Inferno pistol?
I like Inferno’s potential damage and unlike plasma they don’t kill you on rolls of 1, but their 6” range is so limiting. So it’s a choice between dmg potential vs range.
I agree with Alextroy here. Inferno pistol either requires you to be out of position or you're on a melee/Seraphim unit. No one else likely wants it. Plasma is for ranged Canoness imo since you're wanting that 12" range anyways for Rapid.with the BSSs you're around. Works well on Seraphim Superiors if you plan on dropping in a Canoness bubble for the Deadly Descent. Its not as great outside the bubble for the cost as your Infernos on them should be handling whatever other high T you're dropping them onto to risk the D2 death on a 1. Maybe an out of place character snipe, but uncommon.
And plasma on a melee Canoness, unless you want Rod, doesn't make much sense to me as the range benefits for the same cost towards the inferno in any scenario.
There's no such thing as a 'ranged' canoness. You're either melee or a buff bot. The main buffbot canoness already has a plasma pistol as mandatory so that's whatever, but outside of that you're taking an inferno pistol if you're taking a pistol at all.
The real argument is pistol or combi-weapon, and the answer to that is: Combi-weapon unless it's on a dedicated melee squad and probably still combi-weapon even then.
There's no such thing as a 'ranged' canoness. You're either melee or a buff bot. The main buffbot canoness already has a plasma pistol as mandatory so that's whatever, but outside of that you're taking an inferno pistol if you're taking a pistol at all.
The real argument is pistol or combi-weapon, and the answer to that is: Combi-weapon unless it's on a dedicated melee squad and probably still combi-weapon even then.
There is such a thing as a Canoness with the 'Wrath of the Emperor'.
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Ranged Weapons list instead of 1 boltgun.
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Pistols list instead of 1 bolt pistol.
Does that mean a sister superior can have both a combi-weapon and a plasma or inferno pistol equipped at the same time ?
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Ranged Weapons list instead of 1 boltgun.
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Pistols list instead of 1 bolt pistol.
Does that mean a sister superior can have both a combi-weapon and a plasma or inferno pistol equipped at the same time ?
Yes, but you can only shoot either the pistol OR the combi-weapon during the shooting phase, not both.
I uh, don't care about blasts. They're seriously overhyped From say a battle cannon against a max size unit, it's a near mathematically irrelevant 1 additional wound per turn. Blasts aren't the reason to MSU. The reason to MSU is that you're more resilient that a large squad, and your're more tactically flexible. Against units from 6-10, it's effect is even more negligibly small.
Also, like, I fail to see what point you're making about 5 DG versus 5 BSS. Sisters do MSUreally well because there's aggressively no reason to do otherwise baked into the faction. The question isn't lasting longer; though 8 BSS in 1 squad will last less long than 8 BSS in 2 squads.
Remember, two squads can stand near each other to effective act like 1 unit most of the time for things like "how many models do I have holding the point" or "how much fire can I put on the target", but they can also go their own way, so they're almost strictly better even if you don't take advantage of things like special weapons. I've already mentioned the reasons to be not-MSU, which are generally related to melee offense and buffs efficiency, neither of which are likely relevant to BSS as basic troops.
Battle cannon is d6 shots so min 3. So leman russ shooting twice has minimum 6 shots. Remember russ 2d6 shots is because it shoots twice. Not because shot stat is heavy 2d6
There's no such thing as a 'ranged' canoness. You're either melee or a buff bot. The main buffbot canoness already has a plasma pistol as mandatory so that's whatever, but outside of that you're taking an inferno pistol if you're taking a pistol at all.
The real argument is pistol or combi-weapon, and the answer to that is: Combi-weapon unless it's on a dedicated melee squad and probably still combi-weapon even then.
There is such a thing as a Canoness with the 'Wrath of the Emperor'.
That's not a 'ranged canoness' that's 'I don't spend CP well'
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Ranged Weapons list instead of 1 boltgun.
• The Sister Superior can be equipped with 1 weapon from the Pistols list instead of 1 bolt pistol.
Does that mean a sister superior can have both a combi-weapon and a plasma or inferno pistol equipped at the same time ?
Yes, but you can only shoot either the pistol OR the combi-weapon during the shooting phase, not both.
Right. Would you say the inferno pistol is a good replacement for a chainsword, or is it a waste of points ?
So I've been looking a bit more closely at Celestians, but I'm concerned about taking more than one unit. Their rerolls trigger from being in range of a cannoness from their order and that seems a bit harder to manage with the VH/BR list I'd like to run.
When fielding multiple units do you just give up on the reroll for some units? Grouping up multiple together seems not ideal.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: So I've been looking a bit more closely at Celestians, but I'm concerned about taking more than one unit. Their rerolls trigger from being in range of a cannoness from their order and that seems a bit harder to manage with the VH/BR list I'd like to run.
When fielding multiple units do you just give up on the reroll for some units? Grouping up multiple together seems not ideal.
I don't think that's a question that can be answered by listbuilding alone since it's going to depend on what you want to do with your Canonesses. If nothing else bringing a squad of 5 with your Bloody Rose Canoness should work as ablative armor to ensure that your repentia swarm retain their buffs for as long as possible even if the enemy brings snipers.
I uh, don't care about blasts. They're seriously overhyped From say a battle cannon against a max size unit, it's a near mathematically irrelevant 1 additional wound per turn. Blasts aren't the reason to MSU. The reason to MSU is that you're more resilient that a large squad, and your're more tactically flexible. Against units from 6-10, it's effect is even more negligibly small.
Also, like, I fail to see what point you're making about 5 DG versus 5 BSS. Sisters do MSUreally well because there's aggressively no reason to do otherwise baked into the faction. The question isn't lasting longer; though 8 BSS in 1 squad will last less long than 8 BSS in 2 squads.
Remember, two squads can stand near each other to effective act like 1 unit most of the time for things like "how many models do I have holding the point" or "how much fire can I put on the target", but they can also go their own way, so they're almost strictly better even if you don't take advantage of things like special weapons. I've already mentioned the reasons to be not-MSU, which are generally related to melee offense and buffs efficiency, neither of which are likely relevant to BSS as basic troops.
Battle cannon is d6 shots so min 3. So leman russ shooting twice has minimum 6 shots. Remember russ 2d6 shots is because it shoots twice. Not because shot stat is heavy 2d6
The blast rule changes the average of 1d6 from 3.5 to 4. Which yeah, isn't that significant. It mainly prevents those 'feel bad' moments where a blast weapon does absolutely nothing to a horde. I'd argue the effect on 11+ squads is significant though but not relevant to us because I don't think anyone argues for 15 man BSS.
U02dah4 wrote: Yes if you cherry pick then absolutely but noones fireing battle cannons at sisters if they can help it
for your D3 shot small blast weapons its a 33% increase
50% increase, actually.
But the only two d3 blasts I can think of are Plasma Cannons (which, to be fair, are something I could see being shot at sisters) and Neutron Lasers (which is VAST OVERKILL for sisters).
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: So I've been looking a bit more closely at Celestians, but I'm concerned about taking more than one unit. Their rerolls trigger from being in range of a cannoness from their order and that seems a bit harder to manage with the VH/BR list I'd like to run.
When fielding multiple units do you just give up on the reroll for some units? Grouping up multiple together seems not ideal.
I don't think that's a question that can be answered by listbuilding alone since it's going to depend on what you want to do with your Canonesses. If nothing else bringing a squad of 5 with your Bloody Rose Canoness should work as ablative armor to ensure that your repentia swarm retain their buffs for as long as possible even if the enemy brings snipers.
So am I insane OR...
Celestians block a shot and take a Mortal Wound.
But the Ebon Chalice trait gives a 5+ save vs. Mortal Wounds (and not just in the Psychic Phase) which would mean Ebon Chalice Celestians can catch a sniper round and walk it off 1/3 of the time.
If only the Cleansing Flame stratagem were a much more reasonable 1 CP.
>sigh<
All these conversions with Brettonian bitz featuring Grails on 'em aren't going to transmute into VH or BR Icons, so I'm trying to find a way to make an Ebon Chalice list work...
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: So I've been looking a bit more closely at Celestians, but I'm concerned about taking more than one unit. Their rerolls trigger from being in range of a cannoness from their order and that seems a bit harder to manage with the VH/BR list I'd like to run.
When fielding multiple units do you just give up on the reroll for some units? Grouping up multiple together seems not ideal.
I don't think that's a question that can be answered by listbuilding alone since it's going to depend on what you want to do with your Canonesses. If nothing else bringing a squad of 5 with your Bloody Rose Canoness should work as ablative armor to ensure that your repentia swarm retain their buffs for as long as possible even if the enemy brings snipers.
I was mostly thinking about running them with the Bloody Rose Cannoness as abaltive wounds, but also a fighty unit. 10 of them do seem to pack a punch in BR. Not as much as Repentia of course, but rerolling shooting is neat. I can see why you'd take 2 units. Blowing 2 CP on a unit on the otherside of the board for their specific strat and the BR on sound sweet, but I'm not sure I want to commit to that. The list I'm thinking of rolling with on the onset of 9th only starts with 7-8 CP.
But the Ebon Chalice trait gives a 5+ save vs. Mortal Wounds (and not just in the Psychic Phase) which would mean Ebon Chalice Celestians can catch a sniper round and walk it off 1/3 of the time.
The Ebon Chalice are pretty sniper resistant yeah. The main problem with Celestian blocking is that it only works on <Order> characters and while GW in their infinite wisdom did give <Order> to the Canoness and Imagifier, they didn't do so with the Missionary, Dialogus, Hospitaller or Preacher so you can't really get away with playing more Characters.
U02dah4 wrote: Yes if you cherry pick then absolutely but noones fireing battle cannons at sisters if they can help it
for your D3 shot small blast weapons its a 33% increase
50% increase, actually.
But the only two d3 blasts I can think of are Plasma Cannons (which, to be fair, are something I could see being shot at sisters) and Neutron Lasers (which is VAST OVERKILL for sisters).
Without repeats
SM
Centurian missile launchers
Wrist mounted grenade launcher
Plasma Cannon
AdM
Eradication ray
neutron lazer
Solar Atomiser
AM Melta Cannon
Custodes
Ballistus Grenade launcher
Assassin/ Sisters of silence
Psyke out grenade
Would be what I can think of from Imperium but I don't know xenos weapons enough to know if there are commonly played D3 blasts and some of the FW models such as contemptor achillius we don't know about yet
Removed sorry I forgot they changed its shot profile from the index version - I never run it
So Guard tanks (Plasma cannon sponsons ), Custodes Terminators (balistus grenade launcher) and SM Centurians (Centurian missile launcher) get pretty decent buffs vs 6-10 and i didnt include xenos
Admech get a couple of incidentals on their characters but not enough to make a significant difference
Removed sorry I forgot they changed its shot profile from the index version - I never run it
So Guard tanks (Plasma cannon sponsons ), Custodes Terminators (balistus grenade launcher) and SM Centurians (Centurian missile launcher) get pretty decent buffs vs 6-10 and i didnt include xenos
Admech get a couple of incidentals on their characters but not enough to make a significant difference
The good news is that even before the massive nerf you weren't ever going to see Centurions with missile laumchers. The way the unit interacts with bolter discipline makes hurricane bolters much more desirable.
And now we're talking about a unit that is essentially dead.
Admonition Canoness IP
Beneficence Canoness NullRod IP Righteous Rage
Celestine
8 Celestians PM, Triple Melta Simulacrum
7 Repentia
Imagifier
Preacher
Repentia Superior Wrath of the Emperor
3 basic BSS
2xIP Seraphim 1 SS with PP 1x10 Zephyrim
2x3 Units of HB/Flail Morties(with one anchorite that had buzz blades)
2 Rhinos
His army was lots of gaunts and gargoyles, HVC Tyrant, Maleceptor, Neurothrope, Double Carnifex(the short range anti-infantry special variant) Shrikes, big unit of dakka warriors, and some spicy SR pyrovores. Also Hiveguard.
Started the game with 8 CP and the Passion, Vital intelligence. Picked Abhor the Witch, Raise the banners, Engage on all fronts.
He picked bring it down(duh), engage on all fronts, and the mission specific one.
I won roll off and gave him first turn, he jumped on all 5 objectives did some very mediocre shooting that also included me saving one of the rhinos from an HVC with the expend miracle dice stratagem. Nothing else really of note.
Took the turn, advanced up, disembarked both melee units in rhinos, shot the melta from the Celestians at the fex on an objective, did 1 wound. Killed 2 hiveguard with HBs, killed a bunch of gaunts with the other HBs. Charge phase, in position to kill his HT, last hiveguard, all of his gargoyles, a carnifex, all of his gaunts, and take 3 objectives back, fail 5 out of 8 charges. Still killed the hiveguard and took 6 wounds off the HT with double fight, also killed half the squad of gargoyles with just the Beneficence canoness.
Still results in him controlling 5 objectives at the start of his command phase, he's now up 18 to 3 with bring it down still pretty much guaranteed by the end of the game. So i'm essentially at 33 to 3. He has an abysmal turn 2, doing very little to anything.
My turn two I basically break his lines and am in the mop up stage. He has such a huge lead that I'd need all 5 turns to score enough points on an empty board, but I am pretty confident I can do it. End of turn 3 ran out of time when the store closed.
Takeaways, beneficence canoness is crazy, the passion is amazing for bloody rose, wrath of the emperor is better than I though, still maybe not worth 1 CP, Celestians will absolutely butcher anything with 3+ Armor or worse with the passion and 3CP, but it does cost 3CP, repentia hit really hard, rhinos and mortifiers are more survivable than I thought, probably still pretty papery though. Mortifiers rock, I really wish the penitent buzzblades were the best general use weapon because the flails are really annoying to roll for and don't feel as good.
We don't really have any CP. I ran out turn 1 and needed the turn CP just to use Deadly descent. I would probably limit myself to 2 relics and a WT in most games just to give myself a fighting chance. For sure no more than that if anything is going SR.
Removed sorry I forgot they changed its shot profile from the index version - I never run it
So Guard tanks (Plasma cannon sponsons ), Custodes Terminators (balistus grenade launcher) and SM Centurians (Centurian missile launcher) get pretty decent buffs vs 6-10 and i didnt include xenos
Admech get a couple of incidentals on their characters but not enough to make a significant difference
The good news is that even before the massive nerf you weren't ever going to see Centurions with missile laumchers. The way the unit interacts with bolter discipline makes hurricane bolters much more desirable.
And now we're talking about a unit that is essentially dead.
I don't think the point was simply to say "these are the only things to consider". I mean, while i agree BLAST isn't going to be a huge deal for Sisters, we will see d3 Types that become much stronger against most everyone. Plasma Cannon, or its like with Necrons, etc, getting cheaper is going to skew a few Heavy weapons pickups for a 36" range that can punch thru SMs on a single shot at D2. This was the end meta of 8th and with the prevalent SM models being introduced, i don't see this vanishing soon.
We'll also get that against us, but they wouldn't need to supercharge to be devastating at that point. 1 squad of Devastator equivalents would get 12 shots default of S7/-3/D1, mathematically coming out to 7.08W, which you'd save 1 on average outside cover (without better invuln bubble). In a 10 man squad, that is 6 dead girls needing a 1 or 2 on morale to not lost another to run and a test for the other 3. Compare that to a 5 man squad, same shooting averaging 2 shots each now, at 4.7 wounds, saving 1, and you end up with usually 1 girl who needs a 3 or less on moral (unless you saved the Superior), giving you 50/50 if your squad survives at all, but you're still mathematically 2.4 wounds less because you simply split your unit. That is 30% increase in survivability without actually doing anything or accounting for dice rolls. The true benefit with the MSU build there, though, is even ignoring the fewer wounds profile that the other 5 girls standing right next to you had 0 chance of being wounded, fleeing, or any general impact to them. This is the MSU argument and blast has 0 influence to it while showing you save 30%. It is simply A squad has wounds while B squad sits pretty. The higher the random roll of shots, the less influence BLAST has to its characteristic outside of horde armies.
In either circumstance, if your BSS are pulling higher end damage shooting than our actual damage dealers, then who cares. For sisters, i think it is a moot point and most of our squad would be removed if we're having that level of weaponry shot at them unless we wrap Celestine or Indomitable, and at that point you care about volume of shots then anything specific. This make split fire that much more appealing, forcing the hand to either over or underkill being where we save the most with MSU builds on them.
Now, my counter to this, and i agree with higher #s, are where you have your damage output and either need ablative wounds or you want more damage output. Repentia are fantastic in full squads out of a Rhino. You're hard pressed having BR Repentia charge otu of a rhino doing 27 S6/-4/D2 hits, mathematically coming out against a T4/5 target with 20.25 hits after rerolls (4+ following 4+), wounding on 3s for 13.5 successful hits forcing an invuln on anything that has one. that's an entire SM squad of anything, and your 135 pts of Repentia have paid for themselves. And they are surprisingly durable units too en bulk due to FNP. Having less than the 9, unless you're riding in something besides a Rhino (no idea why?) doesn't make sense. I feel the same goes for Dominions where you want to keep the SBs up as much as you can for Blessed Bolts on the 4 that have them. I personally still like the MSU aspect of them, but 24% increase in price on them has me considering them as shelf dust for the moment. Similar in ablative Seraphim, 4 pt increase is just killer to having anything but 5 women squads of them. 36% increase to protect inferno pistols is just bad math even if you get the extra shots on the strategem on drop.
I think the answer is that the MSU build should really only be considered with BSS and the other units need to given their purpose to determine their squad size benefits.
Nice write up and agree you’d probably have won that game. My experience in 9th so far is we’ve got the tools for board control (mainly through BR) though getting to the center will take us longer than most factions.
Since 9th dropped I’ve said we will be short on CPs this edition especially if we take more of the Relics and WLTs that make us more competitive, even so I will always take 2 WLTs and at least 3 to 4 Relics in all my lists.
The Passion is crazy good with BR though sometimes I take Hand of the Emperor just to make sure I get that extra movement in charges or advances.
And Celestians have been under rated in our new Codex. Never a fan of Celestians until this codex, but in BR Celestians are murder machines.... nearby a Canoness, Priest and an Imagifier they can both shoot and melee like gods. I run 30 in all my lists as a core. They go center of board protecting the characters and buffed by them.
I still don’t like vehicles for us for this edition but interested in your overall effectiveness with Mortifiers. Given PENengs are 10 points cheaper would you consider those instead?
Nice write up and agree you’d probably have won that game. My experience in 9th so far is we’ve got the tools for board control (mainly through BR) though getting to the center will take us longer than most factions.
Since 9th dropped I’ve said we will be short on CPs this edition especially if we take more of the Relics and WLTs that make us more competitive, even so I will always take 2 WLTs and at least 3 to 4 Relics in all my lists.
The Passion is crazy good with BR though sometimes I take Hand of the Emperor just to make sure I get that extra movement in charges or advances.
And Celestians have been under rated in our new Codex. Never a fan of Celestians until this codex, but in BR Celestians are murder machines.... nearby a Canoness, Priest and an Imagifier they can both shoot and melee like gods. I run 30 in all my lists as a core. They go center of board protecting the characters and buffed by them.
I still don’t like vehicles for us for this edition but interested in your overall effectiveness with Mortifiers. Given PENengs are 10 points cheaper would you consider those instead?
I like celestians in bloody rose but I'm always leery of using more than one or two units because A. BR runs out of slots and there is not a single unit in our codex that is worth picking up a new detachment by itself. B. They're actually fairly limited in what targets they can reliably go after and if they have to hit something like a carnifex(like my celestians did) they become CP sponges. I like them now, but I think 2 squads of 9 is about all I'd ever take in BR. And they shoot okay. If sisters had better infantry weapons they'd shoot extremely well but 3 melta shots or 2 melta shots and 2 plasma shots, or whatever other combo you have is decent with full rerolls but it's still just a couple melta. If the palatine lets us reroll wounds of 1 I'll definitely revisit this but rerolling all hits on 3 meaningful shots sounds better than it is when you roll 2-1-1 on the wound roll with no help in sight.
I think the nature of the missions and just of the way we do damage now means we're always locked in to either the passion or divine guidance (or aegis against greyknight and Tsons) now. We have to lean even more heavily into miracle dice for charges. I can tell you that I'm never rolling for Sacred rites ever again. Rolling double reroll morale, battle rites-ing to reroll morale, and rerolling into reroll morale, was painful enough when it happened to me in the last tournament I played, it could potentially be a death sentence now.
To me, it seems like CP are more valuable than any of our relics except beneficence. Litanies is my go to but I'm only taking it in pure VH lists now, blade of admonition is a hard sell when in most situations it only give +1 damage per hit, I've always thought the book of St. Lucius was more of a crutch to help take the sting out of bad movement than an actual value add(unless you're only running 1 canoness) the iron surplice I would only take if sniper is still showing up in the meta a lot. The marginal benefit of any one of these just doesn't seem to match the value you could get out of situations like: Triple melta, simulacrum squad in defensible, showing 5-6 on miracle dice, celestian with imagifiers charging assault intercessors getting+1 to wound, deadly descent, run and charge, etc. It's why 2 relics and Heroine is my new army standard with a 3rd relic being a very painful maybe if I don't SR anything. Double tales would only be for mass infantry builds where the relative value add of the -1 immunity(br) or the +1S(VH) is spread across enough models that it makes up for the loss of something like saving an exocist from a lascannon shot with the spend miracle dice strat.
And no, I wouldn't use penitents over mortifiers, at least not in the way I was using them this game. Despite being really similar statwise, I think pengines have very different usages. Mortifiers have 2" extra movement, a usable ranged weapon (every flamer weapons sucks so so hard), and the incredibly valuable adepta sororitas keyword in exchance for being about 9% worse in CQC, and being slightly less tanky thanks to only a 6+++. Being able to run and shoot+charge or fallback and shoot+charge is HUGE, so any attempt at using them offensively, I would take the mortifiers 100% of the time.
Penitent engines I would take as sort of a very cheap distraction carnifex/look out sir option that could potentially also SR if the situation called for it. At 50pts a unit of 3 is pretty fairly priced and can easily bait a bunch of anti-vehicle fire and discourage deepstrike while being models you honestly care very little about.
Basically it's kind of like Arco-flags, they're really good but if you're BR you could take repentia and repentia have a wider range of target and stratagems they can use; but if you're in VH repentia aren't an option so arcos are the best melee add. Penitent engines are better in VH where they're shielding your backline, eating anti-tank guns and outflanking than they are in BR where Mortifiers would be able to both provide covering fire and a pressing threat to your opponent's lines.
Nice write up and agree you’d probably have won that game. My experience in 9th so far is we’ve got the tools for board control (mainly through BR) though getting to the center will take us longer than most factions.
Since 9th dropped I’ve said we will be short on CPs this edition especially if we take more of the Relics and WLTs that make us more competitive, even so I will always take 2 WLTs and at least 3 to 4 Relics in all my lists.
The Passion is crazy good with BR though sometimes I take Hand of the Emperor just to make sure I get that extra movement in charges or advances.
And Celestians have been under rated in our new Codex. Never a fan of Celestians until this codex, but in BR Celestians are murder machines.... nearby a Canoness, Priest and an Imagifier they can both shoot and melee like gods. I run 30 in all my lists as a core. They go center of board protecting the characters and buffed by them.
I still don’t like vehicles for us for this edition but interested in your overall effectiveness with Mortifiers. Given PENengs are 10 points cheaper would you consider those instead?
I like celestians in bloody rose but I'm always leery of using more than one or two units because A. BR runs out of slots and there is not a single unit in our codex that is worth picking up a new detachment by itself. B. They're actually fairly limited in what targets they can reliably go after and if they have to hit something like a carnifex(like my celestians did) they become CP sponges. I like them now, but I think 2 squads of 9 is about all I'd ever take in BR. And they shoot okay. If sisters had better infantry weapons they'd shoot extremely well but 3 melta shots or 2 melta shots and 2 plasma shots, or whatever other combo you have is decent with full rerolls but it's still just a couple melta. If the palatine lets us reroll wounds of 1 I'll definitely revisit this but rerolling all hits on 3 meaningful shots sounds better than it is when you roll 2-1-1 on the wound roll with no help in sight.
I think the nature of the missions and just of the way we do damage now means we're always locked in to either the passion or divine guidance (or aegis against greyknight and Tsons) now. We have to lean even more heavily into miracle dice for charges. I can tell you that I'm never rolling for Sacred rites ever again. Rolling double reroll morale, battle rites-ing to reroll morale, and rerolling into reroll morale, was painful enough when it happened to me in the last tournament I played, it could potentially be a death sentence now.
To me, it seems like CP are more valuable than any of our relics except beneficence. Litanies is my go to but I'm only taking it in pure VH lists now, blade of admonition is a hard sell when in most situations it only give +1 damage per hit, I've always thought the book of St. Lucius was more of a crutch to help take the sting out of bad movement than an actual value add(unless you're only running 1 canoness) the iron surplice I would only take if sniper is still showing up in the meta a lot. The marginal benefit of any one of these just doesn't seem to match the value you could get out of situations like: Triple melta, simulacrum squad in defensible, showing 5-6 on miracle dice, celestian with imagifiers charging assault intercessors getting+1 to wound, deadly descent, run and charge, etc. It's why 2 relics and Heroine is my new army standard with a 3rd relic being a very painful maybe if I don't SR anything. Double tales would only be for mass infantry builds where the relative value add of the -1 immunity(br) or the +1S(VH) is spread across enough models that it makes up for the loss of something like saving an exocist from a lascannon shot with the spend miracle dice strat.
And no, I wouldn't use penitents over mortifiers, at least not in the way I was using them this game. Despite being really similar statwise, I think pengines have very different usages. Mortifiers have 2" extra movement, a usable ranged weapon (every flamer weapons sucks so so hard), and the incredibly valuable adepta sororitas keyword in exchance for being about 9% worse in CQC, and being slightly less tanky thanks to only a 6+++. Being able to run and shoot+charge or fallback and shoot+charge is HUGE, so any attempt at using them offensively, I would take the mortifiers 100% of the time.
Penitent engines I would take as sort of a very cheap distraction carnifex/look out sir option that could potentially also SR if the situation called for it. At 50pts a unit of 3 is pretty fairly priced and can easily bait a bunch of anti-vehicle fire and discourage deepstrike while being models you honestly care very little about.
Basically it's kind of like Arco-flags, they're really good but if you're BR you could take repentia and repentia have a wider range of target and stratagems they can use; but if you're in VH repentia aren't an option so arcos are the best melee add. Penitent engines are better in VH where they're shielding your backline, eating anti-tank guns and outflanking than they are in BR where Mortifiers would be able to both provide covering fire and a pressing threat to your opponent's lines.
I'm curious why you feel Beneficence is better than a blessed blade? i understand in your setup you apparently wanted it with the Null rod, but is the +3A substantially better than wounding most infantry on 3s instead of 4s? I'd think the +2S would be better and save your Relic slot for Litanies for a low 10 pts when you want a melee beat stick. I haven't tried Beneficence myself, but i also find myself a bit more melee with my list in 9th than in 8th on my VH/BR split leaning more towards BR offense with VH capture/holding obsec.
I still don't know how i feel on Pen/Morts given your description since they are relatively easy for Bring it Down points. Given characters for Assassinate, we're then giving up 2 easier secondary objs for them to cap out at the full 15. Since these are a threat anyways, they aren't doing much by drawing fire either, so you're not putting shooting where you want it. Do they do enough that we shouldn't care about that?
@Dragonbeef4Life +3 attacks is WAY better than +1 to wound, mathematically speaking, it also synergizes extremely well with the passion. If you haven't used beneficence before, trust me, admonition is nowhere near as scary. Gak, my last game she aced a maleceptor and overkilled it by about 4 wounds in one round of combat.
You can't take both assasinate and bring it down together, so if one is easy, who gives a feth about the other? Also, shooting the pengines is a trap, 3 pengines and 2 exos is only 12 bring it down points and the pengines are easier to score, so they put their lascannons there trying to play the mission, bounce off the 5++ and invul(celestine's), and get eaten by exos. Distraction carnifex.
Though again, it's not necessarily a recommendation just how I see them if you wanna use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So watching Nick Nanavati play Sisters(poorly to be perfectly honest) made me realize something:
The battle sanctum is fething huge. Like seriously fething huge.
It is also area terrain with scaleable and breachable. Which means only beasts, infantry, and swarms can go in it or through it(unless fly).
Which means vehicles, bikes, monsters, and anything else that isn't the classic IBS category can't go in it or through it.
With how small the board is now, 2 battle sanctums could theoretically(depending on terrain setup) completely lock your opponent's non-ibs units out of your deployment zone. Especially if you pull some shenanigans with the statues.
If you set up a list that was either infantry only or just had Exos that don't care about moving, you would be totally unaffected by the Battle sanctums locking down multiple objectives while your opponent's discolords have to look on forlornly at objectives that are literally impossible for them to capture.
ERJAK wrote: @Dragonbeef4Life +3 attacks is WAY better than +1 to wound, mathematically speaking, it also synergizes extremely well with the passion. If you haven't used beneficence before, trust me, admonition is nowhere near as scary. Gak, my last game she aced a maleceptor and overkilled it by about 4 wounds in one round of combat.
You can't take both assasinate and bring it down together, so if one is easy, who gives a feth about the other? Also, shooting the pengines is a trap, 3 pengines and 2 exos is only 12 bring it down points and the pengines are easier to score, so they put their lascannons there trying to play the mission, bounce off the 5++ and invul(celestine's), and get eaten by exos. Distraction carnifex.
Though again, it's not necessarily a recommendation just how I see them if you wanna use them.
@ERJAK
Agreed with the math, but it isn't much difference. Blessed: 5A, 2+TH (4.86),3+TW (3.24), D@d3 (2) averages 6.5W v Beneficence: 8A, 2+TH (7.78), 4+TW(3.89) D@D2 has you at 7.78W. However, that is 10 pts vs a Relic (or CP) for 20% increase in wounds from a single model. Is that worth it over Litanies to ensure I get better Miracles if I'm generating at least 3 every turn? Now, if you're using The Passion, the synergy puts the relic into the winner since you have more opportunities to explode = far superior and much more a consideration to character assassinate. I like that a Maleceptor was fodder, so makes me def consider it viable. And the math isn't taking into account an imagifier that might make your TW better as well. I would consider that above the Wrath if we're talking weapons at that point, though a walking 4 shot 18" S5 -3 (if BR) D2 pistol is amazingly appealing to me for Intercessor eating since you can shoot within combat and STILL get that blessed blade output above. And admonition doesn't seem to be great when you compare its a relic that is only +1D on average over a blessed. Totally not worth it, fully with you there.
And you make a great point on the Assassinate vs BiDT. I was thinking that you're giving any army (as most are going to be either snipe or anti-tank i think at this point), which just makes it that much easier for any army you face to know they have a good chance of easy points. A sniper army usually has a harder time with armor, and vice versa. I personally like forcing the hand to know that they are going to have to go after my characters to get the 15 which leaves my Exos to wreak havoc. if they spend a lot trying to pierce the T8 behind my lines with an Imagifier usually near them, they aren't getting the objective done well and that means i'm usually fortified on Obsec and LOS becomes an issue for them if i can place them correctly with Obscuring. but as you say, if you're built knowing that they are going to pick the easy one and you know how to make that work in your favor, still gives us an advantage with tactics. And distractionfex makes perfect sense if you're pulling out the lascannons on them instead of the Exos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So watching Nick Nanavati play Sisters(poorly to be perfectly honest) made me realize something:
The battle sanctum is fething huge. Like seriously fething huge.
It is also area terrain with scaleable and breachable. Which means only beasts, infantry, and swarms can go in it or through it(unless fly).
Which means vehicles, bikes, monsters, and anything else that isn't the classic IBS category can't go in it or through it.
With how small the board is now, 2 battle sanctums could theoretically(depending on terrain setup) completely lock your opponent's non-ibs units out of your deployment zone. Especially if you pull some shenanigans with the statues.
If you set up a list that was either infantry only or just had Exos that don't care about moving, you would be totally unaffected by the Battle sanctums locking down multiple objectives while your opponent's discolords have to look on forlornly at objectives that are literally impossible for them to capture.
Also to this, because objectives are set before regular terrain, they can't be on the normal pieces now. But, because you place the sanct as a deploy, you can certainly encase any in your deployment and prevent LOS behind some of the doors, or in such a way that any LOS would cause them to be completely out of position on their own obj. That 55 points is fantastic. It shuts down some T1 charge units, like White Scars on their bikes. I've just used 1 and had great success with it in 9th testing and the end of 8th. The Miracle dice is also great. I have yet to have the LD mean much of anything. I've also posted a Vindicare on the top, since it default to providing a very high elevation line of sight to the board, as well as cover to him and where i want him. I've taken out Imotekh and Calgar T1 with him in my local stores. That fortification is amazing.
ERJAK wrote: @Dragonbeef4Life +3 attacks is WAY better than +1 to wound, mathematically speaking, it also synergizes extremely well with the passion. If you haven't used beneficence before, trust me, admonition is nowhere near as scary. Gak, my last game she aced a maleceptor and overkilled it by about 4 wounds in one round of combat.
You can't take both assasinate and bring it down together, so if one is easy, who gives a feth about the other? Also, shooting the pengines is a trap, 3 pengines and 2 exos is only 12 bring it down points and the pengines are easier to score, so they put their lascannons there trying to play the mission, bounce off the 5++ and invul(celestine's), and get eaten by exos. Distraction carnifex.
.
Generally i assume to not play against idiot so not counting opponent to fire lascannons at walkers. They are mortificators or penitent engines. They have zero durability really. Pointing lascannons is inefficient when they have better weapons for it.
Lascannons at exorcists, anti-walker guns at pengines which will kill those at ease but suck vs exorcist. Both are facing fire.
ERJAK wrote: @Dragonbeef4Life +3 attacks is WAY better than +1 to wound, mathematically speaking, it also synergizes extremely well with the passion. If you haven't used beneficence before, trust me, admonition is nowhere near as scary. Gak, my last game she aced a maleceptor and overkilled it by about 4 wounds in one round of combat.
You can't take both assasinate and bring it down together, so if one is easy, who gives a feth about the other? Also, shooting the pengines is a trap, 3 pengines and 2 exos is only 12 bring it down points and the pengines are easier to score, so they put their lascannons there trying to play the mission, bounce off the 5++ and invul(celestine's), and get eaten by exos. Distraction carnifex.
Though again, it's not necessarily a recommendation just how I see them if you wanna use them.
@ERJAK
Agreed with the math, but it isn't much difference. Blessed: 5A, 2+TH (4.86),3+TW (3.24), D@d3 (2) averages 6.5W v Beneficence: 8A, 2+TH (7.78), 4+TW(3.89) D@D2 has you at 7.78W. However, that is 10 pts vs a Relic (or CP) for 20% increase in wounds from a single model. Is that worth it over Litanies to ensure I get better Miracles if I'm generating at least 3 every turn? Now, if you're using The Passion, the synergy puts the relic into the winner since you have more opportunities to explode = far superior and much more a consideration to character assassinate. I like that a Maleceptor was fodder, so makes me def consider it viable. And the math isn't taking into account an imagifier that might make your TW better as well. I would consider that above the Wrath if we're talking weapons at that point, though a walking 4 shot 18" S5 -3 (if BR) D2 pistol is amazingly appealing to me for Intercessor eating since you can shoot within combat and STILL get that blessed blade output above. And admonition doesn't seem to be great when you compare its a relic that is only +1D on average over a blessed. Totally not worth it, fully with you there.
And you make a great point on the Assassinate vs BiDT. I was thinking that you're giving any army (as most are going to be either snipe or anti-tank i think at this point), which just makes it that much easier for any army you face to know they have a good chance of easy points. A sniper army usually has a harder time with armor, and vice versa. I personally like forcing the hand to know that they are going to have to go after my characters to get the 15 which leaves my Exos to wreak havoc. if they spend a lot trying to pierce the T8 behind my lines with an Imagifier usually near them, they aren't getting the objective done well and that means i'm usually fortified on Obsec and LOS becomes an issue for them if i can place them correctly with Obscuring. but as you say, if you're built knowing that they are going to pick the easy one and you know how to make that work in your favor, still gives us an advantage with tactics. And distractionfex makes perfect sense if you're pulling out the lascannons on them instead of the Exos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So watching Nick Nanavati play Sisters(poorly to be perfectly honest) made me realize something:
The battle sanctum is fething huge. Like seriously fething huge.
It is also area terrain with scaleable and breachable. Which means only beasts, infantry, and swarms can go in it or through it(unless fly).
Which means vehicles, bikes, monsters, and anything else that isn't the classic IBS category can't go in it or through it.
With how small the board is now, 2 battle sanctums could theoretically(depending on terrain setup) completely lock your opponent's non-ibs units out of your deployment zone. Especially if you pull some shenanigans with the statues.
If you set up a list that was either infantry only or just had Exos that don't care about moving, you would be totally unaffected by the Battle sanctums locking down multiple objectives while your opponent's discolords have to look on forlornly at objectives that are literally impossible for them to capture.
Also to this, because objectives are set before regular terrain, they can't be on the normal pieces now. But, because you place the sanct as a deploy, you can certainly encase any in your deployment and prevent LOS behind some of the doors, or in such a way that any LOS would cause them to be completely out of position on their own obj. That 55 points is fantastic. It shuts down some T1 charge units, like White Scars on their bikes. I've just used 1 and had great success with it in 9th testing and the end of 8th. The Miracle dice is also great. I have yet to have the LD mean much of anything. I've also posted a Vindicare on the top, since it default to providing a very high elevation line of sight to the board, as well as cover to him and where i want him. I've taken out Imotekh and Calgar T1 with him in my local stores. That fortification is amazing.
The battle sanctum itself is super good, no doubt. It's absolutely a must take in valorous heart lists in my opinion, but I'm not really talking about that here. I'm talking about the insane area denial two of them could give you.
If you position the dual sanctum correctly it doesn't shut down their first turn charge for their bikes, it shuts their bike's charge off permanently, at least in your deployment zone. All you'd need is enough terrain on the board that the footprint of the two sanctums and the statues is large enough to lock off all bikes or larger bases to permanently lock off their deployment zone.
LoS is largely irrelevant in this case because any army that was relying on bikes, vehicles, or monsters to charge just lost any ability to contest your backfield objectives.
TO BE CLEAR, this is a gimmick that won't work in every situation or on every table, but it is hilarious to think about a white scars army impotently sitting out in front of your line of buildings getting shot to hell by untouchable 2+ save battle sisters.
ERJAK wrote: @Dragonbeef4Life +3 attacks is WAY better than +1 to wound, mathematically speaking, it also synergizes extremely well with the passion. If you haven't used beneficence before, trust me, admonition is nowhere near as scary. Gak, my last game she aced a maleceptor and overkilled it by about 4 wounds in one round of combat.
You can't take both assasinate and bring it down together, so if one is easy, who gives a feth about the other? Also, shooting the pengines is a trap, 3 pengines and 2 exos is only 12 bring it down points and the pengines are easier to score, so they put their lascannons there trying to play the mission, bounce off the 5++ and invul(celestine's), and get eaten by exos. Distraction carnifex.
.
Generally i assume to not play against idiot so not counting opponent to fire lascannons at walkers. They are mortificators or penitent engines. They have zero durability really. Pointing lascannons is inefficient when they have better weapons for it.
Lascannons at exorcists, anti-walker guns at pengines which will kill those at ease but suck vs exorcist. Both are facing fire.
Lascannons was being used here to indicate a generic anti-vehicle weapon. While Pengines are not particularly sturdy, no, they are far tougher than most people(you included) give them credit for and only need to bait a handful of shots to be worth their very low investment.
Anti-walker guns and anti-tank guns have just an incredible amount of overlap. Just about the only weapon that space marine's commonly use, for example, that is good at killing pengines and bad at killing exorcists is assault cannons and most lists don't use too many of those these days. If they're blowing heavy onslaught gatlings into pengines , those still wound on 4s and aren't targeting BSS on objectives. Any single shot that gets spent into the pengines is valuable because A. Some good FNP rolls and they could easily soak a surprising amount of fire and B. no one cares what happens to the pengines.
And cool, they shoot the lascannons at exorcists, that means the pengines are probably fine and the exorcists are probably fine considering that with 1 6 and even mediocre miracle dice generation you can guarantee two succeeded saves. They've now split their fire and killed neither.
And once again, this isn't a recommendation for this type of use for pengines, this is just the only situation I can see pengines being the superior option vs mortifiers. Their cheaper cost and slightly increased resiliency make them better at playing distraction carnifex. But you were too busy getting excited at the prospect of a(n unearned) WELL ACHTSHULLY!!! to see that part(or use halfway decent grammar) weren't you?
In reality the best option for either unit is to wait until bring it down gets nerfed for low wound vehicles and then use mortifiers to race pell mell into the thick of combat while pengines wait for the next codex.
Benefice pulls ahead, even without an Imagifier, on a BR canoness for three reasons:
3 more base attacks
More chances to proc the Passion
Vs Marines and Primaris, Benefice has less, or even no, 'lost damage' from Overkill
With the Passion, a blessed blade nets 5-6 successful hits 71% of the time. Benefice nets 8-10 successful hits almost 83% of the time (both first deviation).
After accounting for Overkill (53% chance of losing between 1.1 and 3.8 damage), a Blessed Blade deals between 5.7 and 10.1 unsaved damage to Intercessors ~79% of the time. Average is 7.9
Benefice deals between 7.9 and 14.8 unsaved damage to Intercessors 76.4% of the time with an average of 11.4, and at most 1 lost damage -- only if you attached a unit that already contained an injured model.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, a Blessed Blade (after accounting for Overkill) maxes out at 16 unsaved damage 0.12% of the time and deals more than 10 damage to Intercessors 9.87% of the time.
Benefice maxed out at 26 damage, albeit only 0.01% of the time. But Benefice also deals more than 10 unsaved damage to Intercessors 54% of the time while dealing 16 or more damage 14.12% of the time.
From what I can tell, the fact that they didn’t take any price hike and overwatch is no longer a major concern means they now hit quite hard for their price point.
I’m considering a set up like this for my VH sisters:
First turn rhino moves up and pops smoke.
Ideal second turn DCA jump out to dig something off an objective, with support from the sisters. Then the sisters take over the objective
From what I can tell, the fact that they didn’t take any price hike and overwatch is no longer a major concern means they now hit quite hard for their price point.
Thoughts?
Iv always liked death cult assassins, iv been using them since witch hunters. The drop from 10 to 6 unit cap hurt them a bit, but them remaining unscathed definitely makes them a more worthwhile contender vs archos now that they are no longer the same points.
They would definately work as a good counter charge threat if you can hide them behind some obscuring terrain and dont need a priest nearly as much as archos do.
Zephyrim i would view as the offensive version of death cults (though they are more expensive) and death cults being the defensive option.
Haven't looked at DCA, but I'd be more tempted to take Crusaders from the Guard as part of a second detachment, maybe even mixed since it's losing Order Convictions anyway.
The costs:
They're 4ppm more than Crusaders in the Sisters dex
There's no errata for their datasheet, so they lose Spiritual Fortitude
They also don't have the Ecchlesiarcy Battle Conclave keyword so cause detachments to lose out on Order Convictions
No access to Miracle Dice
The benefits
Their datasheet hasn't been given errata, so they can be taken in units of 10.
Because they don't have the Battle Conclave rules, you can take multiple units without taking a Priest of some kind
They always use Elites slots instead of being slotless, so can fill mandatory slots (can also be a cost)
They have access to Index Acts of Faith rules because they're written on the datasheet
They have the Ministorum keyword so don't break Sacred Rites
Taikishi wrote: Haven't looked at DCA, but I'd be more tempted to take Crusaders from the Guard as part of a second detachment, maybe even mixed since it's losing Order Convictions anyway.
The costs:
They're 4ppm more than Crusaders in the Sisters dex
There's no errata for their datasheet, so they lose Spiritual Fortitude
They also don't have the Ecchlesiarcy Battle Conclave keyword so cause detachments to lose out on Order Convictions
No access to Miracle Dice
The benefits
Their datasheet hasn't been given errata, so they can be taken in units of 10.
Because they don't have the Battle Conclave rules, you can take multiple units without taking a Priest of some kind
They always use Elites slots instead of being slotless, so can fill mandatory slots (can also be a cost)
They have access to Index Acts of Faith rules because they're written on the datasheet
They have the Ministorum keyword so don't break Sacred Rites
not sure where you're getting some of that.
The costs:
They're 4ppm more than Crusaders in the Sisters dex - DCA in MFM are 13 PPM with free melee weapons (which are basically free power swords), vs Crusaders at 11 + 5 for an actual power sword for 16 each. they are 3 pts cheaper than Crusaders
There's no errata for their datasheet, so they lose Spiritual Fortitude - FNP5 is a loss
They also don't have the Ecchlesiarcy Battle Conclave keyword so cause detachments to lose out on Order Convictions. - They have this on their sheet, not sure what you're referring to? P179 has both the ability listed and the Keyword for DCA, so you don't lose order at all per P196
No access to Miracle Dice - Agreed, but that isn't a point here. This would be more a comparison of them to Repentia than to Crusaders who also don't have access to Miracle dice.
**I'd add that DCA also have a 5++ instead of the 3++ free storm shield on the Crusaders for this comparison (0 pts for SS in MFM?!)
The benefits
Their datasheet hasn't been given errata, so they can be taken in units of 10. - Codex gives them 2-6 as Warmaster indicates, so this does limit them down.
Because they don't have the Battle Conclave rules, you can take multiple units without taking a Priest of some kind- see above, not correct. Can take elite slot if no priest of free slot if priest
They always use Elites slots instead of being slotless, so can fill mandatory slots (can also be a cost) - see above
They have access to Index Acts of Faith rules because they're written on the datasheet - negative. Codex supersedes supplement per GW, so they don't have access to these.
They have the Ministorum keyword so don't break Sacred Rites - Neither DCA nor Crusaders break this (nothing in the codex does). But neither unit benefits from it either
**I'd add that DCA have +1"M, +1S, +2A, and in cover can get better than their 5+SV if you need it, compared to the Crusaders. At 19% cheaper, the DCA are going to be better overall for their offensive counterpunch than a Crusader. While you can sit on a spot with their 3++, they are still T3 and simple volume will remove them for what you're paying since they get 0 benefits from Order, SR, or Miracle dice. a 3++/5+++ can take a good deal of fire, but an 11 pt BSS girl can relatively be the same in VH (or better in cover against most shots). To me, Crusaders are a bit DOAatm since there is very little interaction with them. If they made them actual Sisters instead of Ministorum, whole different ballgame.
DCA are good for rather cheap, strong counterchargers that don't need buffs to inflict damage. 4 attacks @ 3+, S4, -3 that doesn't need buffing is durable. But the real intention here is to either use them to protect a charge against a holding unit, or you rush them into the opponent weaving LOS to try and inflict infantry casualties quickly. i think i sit with Warmaster21 here in that Zephrym do the later better because of their Sister interactions, and deep strike, but DCA do the counterpunch very successfully.
I was comparing Crusaders in the AM codex to Crusaders in the AS codex and advocating for possibly taking AM Crusaders. I would have thought mentioning taking Crusaders from Guard in the first sentence and then mentioning they're 4ppm more expensive than Crusaders in the Sisters dex would have been enough clarification, but I guess not.
And, yes, AM Crusaders are 20ppm with Index Acts of Faith on their datasheet while AS Crusaders are 16.
Taikishi wrote: I was comparing Crusaders in the AM codex to Crusaders in the AS codex and advocating for possibly taking AM Crusaders. I would have thought mentioning taking Crusaders from Guard in the first sentence and then mentioning they're 4ppm more expensive than Crusaders in the Sisters dex would have been enough clarification, but I guess not.
And, yes, AM Crusaders are 20ppm with Index Acts of Faith on their datasheet while AS Crusaders are 16.
I think the confusion was indeed that you were comparing SOB Crusaders to Guard Crusaders and DCA wasn't even in the picture we all started talking about. So disregard my entire comment.
Also why I prefaced that I hadn't looked at DCA, but it's all good
When I have more time I'll give my own thoughts about DCA, but there's an Art of War article that seems to believe the Triumph is a competitive choice now.
The inclusion of the triumph appears to be based on the principle that the sisters always roll 6 for their miracle dice - at least that is what every reference to the mechanic in the article is suggesting.
I'm guessing the target playstyle here is to take objectives early with dominions, then charge the opponents infiltrators/countercharge with mortifiers and repentia with a celestian/character blob advancing to clear the second wave and the small sisters squads just there to pick up the objectives late on - hence the emphasis on dealing with things like 'fights last' effects that will mulch the initial charge.
Not much redundancy - there is precisely one shot at hitting a backfield unit with a combined seraphim drop/reserves outflank and the character buffs/units are going to have to pick a direction and stick with it.
450 points tied up in three named characters that are supporting around 400 more points of sisters and six meltaguns. I guess my first though would be whether or not 450 points of more sisters would be more useful than the localised 4++ and the triumph who can still be shot off the board freely - it's just the building cover that it benefits from.
edit: it is curiously similar to the goonhammer sisters article.
The inclusion of the triumph appears to be based on the principle that the sisters always roll 6 for their miracle dice - at least that is what every reference to the mechanic in the article is suggesting.
I'm guessing the target playstyle here is to take objectives early with dominions, then charge the opponents infiltrators/countercharge with mortifiers and repentia with a celestian/character blob advancing to clear the second wave and the small sisters squads just there to pick up the objectives late on - hence the emphasis on dealing with things like 'fights last' effects that will mulch the initial charge.
Not much redundancy - there is precisely one shot at hitting a backfield unit with a combined seraphim drop/reserves outflank and the character buffs/units are going to have to pick a direction and stick with it.
450 points tied up in three named characters that are supporting around 400 more points of sisters and six meltaguns. I guess my first though would be whether or not 450 points of more sisters would be more useful than the localised 4++ and the triumph who can still be shot off the board freely - it's just the building cover that it benefits from.
edit: it is curiously similar to the goonhammer sisters article.
Them and nick nanavati at the moment all seem to agree that the Triumph is the bees knees but I can't help but feel like they're letting their natural tournament player instinct towards eliminating RNG overtake their senses here.
The Triumph is a 195pt model that doesn't do anything that is easily replacable by much cheaper models that do all of the same things but offer other bonuses besides.
You could take a Sanctum, a Dialogus, and 18 simulacrums for the cost of the Triumph and end up with all the same important buffs only with much more flexible options to utilize them and a big F-in piece of cover. Or you could just pump those 195pts into units that actually accomplishes something.
Also, any list that takes the geminae superia is automatically trash.
I plan on a pure infantry force (Bloody Rose) with the exception of 3 Mortifiers for “While We Stand We Fight”, so how many meltas (of all flavors) should a 2000 point force bring? Would 25 be enough? 30?
Just wondering thoughts on this.
The inclusion of the triumph appears to be based on the principle that the sisters always roll 6 for their miracle dice - at least that is what every reference to the mechanic in the article is suggesting.
I'm guessing the target playstyle here is to take objectives early with dominions, then charge the opponents infiltrators/countercharge with mortifiers and repentia with a celestian/character blob advancing to clear the second wave and the small sisters squads just there to pick up the objectives late on - hence the emphasis on dealing with things like 'fights last' effects that will mulch the initial charge.
Not much redundancy - there is precisely one shot at hitting a backfield unit with a combined seraphim drop/reserves outflank and the character buffs/units are going to have to pick a direction and stick with it.
450 points tied up in three named characters that are supporting around 400 more points of sisters and six meltaguns. I guess my first though would be whether or not 450 points of more sisters would be more useful than the localised 4++ and the triumph who can still be shot off the board freely - it's just the building cover that it benefits from.
edit: it is curiously similar to the goonhammer sisters article.
Them and nick nanavati at the moment all seem to agree that the Triumph is the bees knees but I can't help but feel like they're letting their natural tournament player instinct towards eliminating RNG overtake their senses here.
The Triumph is a 195pt model that doesn't do anything that is easily replacable by much cheaper models that do all of the same things but offer other bonuses besides.
You could take a Sanctum, a Dialogus, and 18 simulacrums for the cost of the Triumph and end up with all the same important buffs only with much more flexible options to utilize them and a big F-in piece of cover. Or you could just pump those 195pts into units that actually accomplishes something.
Also, any list that takes the geminae superia is automatically trash.
I can't see both named together myself. Triumph does offer a few fantastic buffs that can't be replicated anywhere:
+1TH 6" bubble. We have no bonuses this way on the table normally at all
+1 Miracle dice per TURN, so that is +2dice per battle round, including during opponents T1 which allows you potential to have 2 decent dice (3 w/ Sanctum) on board for early saves if you go 2nd
And at 14 attacks at top profile, she isn't exactly a pushover in melee against masses.
However, i think the bad outweighs those for sure, even outside of point usage.
The FAQ allows her to utilize terrain like a regular infantry, so obscuring and dense still work for her, however the fact LOS doesn't help her at all is hot garbage for a T3 200 pt model though. Most bubbles like her can effectively hide in the units they want to keep buffed. She can't, and her bubble isn't that large...She is also slow which makes it a challenge to keep anyone IN her bubble. She doesn't provide the SoF buff like C so you'd have to keep both characters together to keep your bubble together. And at only 6 bolt pistol shots, she doesn't cover any ranged needs for 195 pts like you want as an aura bubble at that price. I think she thrives in a defensive bubble positioned to allow your counter punch melee to hit that much better, but that doesn't work in 9th as well as they argue. And that article also states that he is still buying simulacrums to use the dice, which is just more 5 pts here and there that adds up. I usually have some unused miracle dice already, or 2s and 3s on the sideboard. What A.T. wrote is right in that the article makes it sound like we always have amazing dice to use every go. Even with Litanies, just isn't true.
Regarding Geminae, they also made a mistake on points. Geminae are now in the MNF under NAMED with two **, so their power swords are built into points at the 18 listed. so they are actually 10% cheaper in new points than in 8th. AOW points costed one at 23. I still fully agree with ERJAK that they are garbage given that they count for Assassinate each time they die if C rezes them (how its been ruled locally, I'd assume how it would be in official play). 36 pts is better for the pair, but the fact you heal THEN rez on 4W that give secondary points easily is just asking to lose games.
U02dah4 wrote: Your argument would make sense if you hadn't sacrificed 14 wounds and any damage output
3BS squads come in at 165 so what you getting for 30pts extra
A ton of buffs 3 extra W and some passable CC
I'm not saying its ridiculously good but its certainly a consideration
My main problem with it - is that its too tall now lots of terrain isn't gf LoS blocking
Here's my thought on the Triumph:
It's got more than 9 wounds, it's an infantry character, it's more points than most tanks, it's got a profile of infantry. That alone makes me not want it. It will die in literally a heartbeat, even considering that it has a special rule to hide behind obscuring terrain.
2 characters with 8 wounds between them and an indestructible building will be almost infinitely more resilient than the Triumph of Saint Katherine because they can only be shot by snipers, but it can be shot by everything and it's dog that can draw range to it.
As for what I'm thinking of doing for 9e:
My past three games of 9e have instructed me that troops are critical, and more importantly, keeping them alive and on objectives is critical at pretty much at the expense of anything else up to and including destruction of enemy assets. In addition, being aggressive early is even more critical than before.
So, in light of that, I'm thinking:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
HQ Canoness
Celestine
Troops
BSSx6
Elites
Imagifier
Preacher
Zephyrim
Fast Attack
Seraphim
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines x2
Dedicated Transport
Immolator x4
Theory:
The 2 dismount squads will be for holding the rear and performing actions on objectives near the rear, lurking out of LoS if possible.
The 4 mounted squads will not plan on dismounting until forcibly dismounted by the destruction of their vehicle. Thus, they won't die until someone breaks open their tank, at which point they pop out and are still holding onto objectives hopefully at least until next turn. Maybe I'll give them meltaguns, I'm still not decided on that front.
The 4 tanks themselves will push up onto objectives and try to drive the enemy back from them with their flame guns. They'll eventually die, but when they do, troops will get out to continue holding the objectives.
Penitent Engines will basically be like the Immolators, but more dangerous in melee, and more aggressive to try to control the center with close quarters assets that are just a little bit too beefy for your average infantry unit to service efficiently. I'm debating between them and Mortifiers, but right now I'm on Penitent Engines because they're 10 points cheaper, fight in melee a little better, are a little tougher, I don't really care about the heavy bolters since I already have enough thanks to the invisible ones on all my tanks now, and most critically, I think 14"+3d6" is still enough threat range to engage most things on the board on turn 2. If the Pengines wind up being too slow, I'll switch them for Mortifiers.
The Exorcists will do what they do, and break tanks open.
The Celestine+Seraphim+Zephyrim block will provide an essentially self-contained strike force that can service tanks courtesy of the Seraphim and service any stripe of infantry courtesy of the Zephyrim & Celestine, is moderately hard to kill thanks to having a 4++, and can move 12" to take advantage of wherever the enemy is weakest or provide spot firefighting.
There's space saved for a Palantine when she becomes available.
I'm also debating breaking off the Seraphim, Zephyrim, Pengines, and Celestine into a Patrol detachment, because while it will cost me CP, it will allow them to have a different doctrine [and also open up space for the third Exorcist]. I also kind of want the third exorcist, because if I can break open an extra APC on the first turn in shooting I'm in a position to kill off the passengers with my flame guns, which will put me ahead in the troops game. And if they go for the Exorcists, that's one more they have to kill to suppress that incoming fire, and they're leaving my own troop transports alone while theirs and their troops are dying.
This isn't really that groundbreaking. Everyone else I've talked to is also now working along similar lines after our first round of games and the post-game debriefs if they can right now, with cheap-troop loaded Falcons, Razorbacks, Repulsors, Impulsors, Chimera, and such proliferating heavily.
davidgr33n wrote: I plan on a pure infantry force (Bloody Rose) with the exception of 3 Mortifiers for “While We Stand We Fight”, so how many meltas (of all flavors) should a 2000 point force bring? Would 25 be enough? 30?
Just wondering thoughts on this.
You really have no model more expensive than 60? Those are ratker bad targets for wmswf secondary though. Durability of wet paper so either you hide somewhere never doing any damage or it's 0 vp to you
davidgr33n wrote: I plan on a pure infantry force (Bloody Rose) with the exception of 3 Mortifiers for “While We Stand We Fight”, so how many meltas (of all flavors) should a 2000 point force bring? Would 25 be enough? 30?
Just wondering thoughts on this.
You really have no model more expensive than 60? Those are ratker bad targets for wmswf secondary though. Durability of wet paper so either you hide somewhere never doing any damage or it's 0 vp to you
They’re my 3 most expensive models, so 1 CP puts them in reserve all game long or at a pinch I bring them on together toward endgame somewhere out of reach and use their Hvy Bolters. 15 VP for 180 pts and still have utility in keeping the opponent guessing or if I do need them.
My other most expensive model is a Canoness at 55, but I can drop her plasma pistol, make her 50, and bring 3 Pen Engines to do the same thing. They don’t have the flexibility of Mortifiers but keeping them in reserve basically nets me 15 VP for 10 pts per VP.
U02dah4 wrote: Your argument would make sense if you hadn't sacrificed 14 wounds and any damage output
3BS squads come in at 165 so what you getting for 30pts extra
A ton of buffs 3 extra W and some passable CC
I'm not saying its ridiculously good but its certainly a consideration
My main problem with it - is that its too tall now lots of terrain isn't gf LoS blocking
It doesn't really have damage output. If you take it, you're not trying to charge anything that doesn't deepstrike basically on top of it because you'll just get it blasted off the table in transit and the wounds are irrelevant when you consider that the other options can't be deliberately targeted out(except the dialogus by sniper) and that the triumph at T3 3+ will die to spare shots extremely quickly. That's why it's a 195pt unit that doesn't do anything. The moment it tries to move up the table or contribute to damage, it'll eat enough fire to shut off the buffs.
Keep in mind that the triumph loses THREE of its buffs after 9 wounds and 4 of them once it gets bracketed again. That means you'll be losing the dialogus ability, sanctum ability, or simulacrum ability, alongside the two other ones no one remembers or gives a crap about.
It's not terrible, I just disagree with Goonhammer that it'll be 'ubiquitous'. It's only really worth it's cost in 2 types of lists: 1 is lists with a bunch of simulacrums and at least 2 exorcists that can take advantage of the huge number of dice you'll generate with it+beacon+whatever else, and 9 mortifier rush lists. Other lists, especially ones that don't run a significant amount of chargers or D6 damage units with simulacrums, are likely better off taking a dialogus and a battle sanctum and just calling it a day.
davidgr33n wrote: I plan on a pure infantry force (Bloody Rose) with the exception of 3 Mortifiers for “While We Stand We Fight”, so how many meltas (of all flavors) should a 2000 point force bring? Would 25 be enough? 30?
Just wondering thoughts on this.
You really have no model more expensive than 60? Those are ratker bad targets for wmswf secondary though. Durability of wet paper so either you hide somewhere never doing any damage or it's 0 vp to you
They’re my 3 most expensive models, so 1 CP puts them in reserve all game long or at a pinch I bring them on together toward endgame somewhere out of reach and use their Hvy Bolters. 15 VP for 180 pts and still have utility in keeping the opponent guessing or if I do need them.
My other most expensive model is a Canoness at 55, but I can drop her plasma pistol, make her 50, and bring 3 Pen Engines to do the same thing. They don’t have the flexibility of Mortifiers but keeping them in reserve basically nets me 15 VP for 10 pts per VP.
You have to bring them in by turn 3 or they're automatically destroyed if you're using normal matched play rules..
U02dah4 wrote: Your argument would make sense if you hadn't sacrificed 14 wounds and any damage output
3BS squads come in at 165 so what you getting for 30pts extra
A ton of buffs 3 extra W and some passable CC
I'm not saying its ridiculously good but its certainly a consideration
My main problem with it - is that its too tall now lots of terrain isn't gf LoS blocking
Here's my thought on the Triumph:
It's got more than 9 wounds, it's an infantry character, it's more points than most tanks, it's got a profile of infantry. That alone makes me not want it. It will die in literally a heartbeat, even considering that it has a special rule to hide behind obscuring terrain.
2 characters with 8 wounds between them and an indestructible building will be almost infinitely more resilient than the Triumph of Saint Katherine because they can only be shot by snipers, but it can be shot by everything and it's dog that can draw range to it.
As for what I'm thinking of doing for 9e:
My past three games of 9e have instructed me that troops are critical, and more importantly, keeping them alive and on objectives is critical at pretty much at the expense of anything else up to and including destruction of enemy assets. In addition, being aggressive early is even more critical than before.
So, in light of that, I'm thinking:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
HQ Canoness
Celestine
Troops
BSSx6
Elites
Imagifier
Preacher
Zephyrim
Fast Attack
Seraphim
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines x2
Dedicated Transport
Immolator x4
Theory:
The 2 dismount squads will be for holding the rear and performing actions on objectives near the rear, lurking out of LoS if possible.
The 4 mounted squads will not plan on dismounting until forcibly dismounted by the destruction of their vehicle. Thus, they won't die until someone breaks open their tank, at which point they pop out and are still holding onto objectives hopefully at least until next turn. Maybe I'll give them meltaguns, I'm still not decided on that front.
The 4 tanks themselves will push up onto objectives and try to drive the enemy back from them with their flame guns. They'll eventually die, but when they do, troops will get out to continue holding the objectives.
Penitent Engines will basically be like the Immolators, but more dangerous in melee, and more aggressive to try to control the center with close quarters assets that are just a little bit too beefy for your average infantry unit to service efficiently. I'm debating between them and Mortifiers, but right now I'm on Penitent Engines because they're 10 points cheaper, fight in melee a little better, are a little tougher, I don't really care about the heavy bolters since I already have enough thanks to the invisible ones on all my tanks now, and most critically, I think 14"+3d6" is still enough threat range to engage most things on the board on turn 2. If the Pengines wind up being too slow, I'll switch them for Mortifiers.
The Exorcists will do what they do, and break tanks open.
The Celestine+Seraphim+Zephyrim block will provide an essentially self-contained strike force that can service tanks courtesy of the Seraphim and service any stripe of infantry courtesy of the Zephyrim & Celestine, is moderately hard to kill thanks to having a 4++, and can move 12" to take advantage of wherever the enemy is weakest or provide spot firefighting.
There's space saved for a Palantine when she becomes available.
I'm also debating breaking off the Seraphim, Zephyrim, Pengines, and Celestine into a Patrol detachment, because while it will cost me CP, it will allow them to have a different doctrine [and also open up space for the third Exorcist]. I also kind of want the third exorcist, because if I can break open an extra APC on the first turn in shooting I'm in a position to kill off the passengers with my flame guns, which will put me ahead in the troops game. And if they go for the Exorcists, that's one more they have to kill to suppress that incoming fire, and they're leaving my own troop transports alone while theirs and their troops are dying.
This isn't really that groundbreaking. Everyone else I've talked to is also now working along similar lines after our first round of games and the post-game debriefs if they can right now, with cheap-troop loaded Falcons, Razorbacks, Repulsors, Impulsors, Chimera, and such proliferating heavily.
This list falls down for me a bit by trying to use seraphim and zephyrim the way you are. Valorous heart zephyrim hit like wet noodles and seraphim are obscenely expensive for their base profile now. You've got about 600pts wrapped up in 4 units that will combined only just put down 10 intercessors.
Dominions would accomplish the same thing while allowing you to cheese some secondaries with their scout move, threaten infiltrators early, be a lot cheaper, have access to simulacrums and still be able to threaten your opponent's lines if they need to. Quad SB combi-plas dominions would handle infantry while quint melta would make every tank sweat and both are cheaper than the zephyrim block, even in 10 girl squads.
Also, you're wasting a huge number of points on immolators. Rhinos will do the same job, better, for cheaper. They're literally suicide units in this list, why waste almost 50 points per?
If you want to keep the seraphim/zephyrim block, change the whole thing to BR. The damage is worth the lack of -2 immunity.
The core idea of the list I agree with, I just think Zephyrim are only every good in BR and Seraphim are far too expensive to be anything other than min-melta squads now.
U02dah4 wrote: Your argument would make sense if you hadn't sacrificed 14 wounds and any damage output
3BS squads come in at 165 so what you getting for 30pts extra
A ton of buffs 3 extra W and some passable CC
I'm not saying its ridiculously good but its certainly a consideration
My main problem with it - is that its too tall now lots of terrain isn't gf LoS blocking
Here's my thought on the Triumph:
It's got more than 9 wounds, it's an infantry character, it's more points than most tanks, it's got a profile of infantry. That alone makes me not want it. It will die in literally a heartbeat, even considering that it has a special rule to hide behind obscuring terrain.
2 characters with 8 wounds between them and an indestructible building will be almost infinitely more resilient than the Triumph of Saint Katherine because they can only be shot by snipers, but it can be shot by everything and it's dog that can draw range to it.
As for what I'm thinking of doing for 9e:
My past three games of 9e have instructed me that troops are critical, and more importantly, keeping them alive and on objectives is critical at pretty much at the expense of anything else up to and including destruction of enemy assets. In addition, being aggressive early is even more critical than before.
So, in light of that, I'm thinking:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
HQ Canoness
Celestine
Troops
BSSx6
Elites
Imagifier
Preacher
Zephyrim
Fast Attack
Seraphim
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines x2
Dedicated Transport
Immolator x4
Theory:
The 2 dismount squads will be for holding the rear and performing actions on objectives near the rear, lurking out of LoS if possible.
The 4 mounted squads will not plan on dismounting until forcibly dismounted by the destruction of their vehicle. Thus, they won't die until someone breaks open their tank, at which point they pop out and are still holding onto objectives hopefully at least until next turn. Maybe I'll give them meltaguns, I'm still not decided on that front.
The 4 tanks themselves will push up onto objectives and try to drive the enemy back from them with their flame guns. They'll eventually die, but when they do, troops will get out to continue holding the objectives.
Penitent Engines will basically be like the Immolators, but more dangerous in melee, and more aggressive to try to control the center with close quarters assets that are just a little bit too beefy for your average infantry unit to service efficiently. I'm debating between them and Mortifiers, but right now I'm on Penitent Engines because they're 10 points cheaper, fight in melee a little better, are a little tougher, I don't really care about the heavy bolters since I already have enough thanks to the invisible ones on all my tanks now, and most critically, I think 14"+3d6" is still enough threat range to engage most things on the board on turn 2. If the Pengines wind up being too slow, I'll switch them for Mortifiers.
The Exorcists will do what they do, and break tanks open.
The Celestine+Seraphim+Zephyrim block will provide an essentially self-contained strike force that can service tanks courtesy of the Seraphim and service any stripe of infantry courtesy of the Zephyrim & Celestine, is moderately hard to kill thanks to having a 4++, and can move 12" to take advantage of wherever the enemy is weakest or provide spot firefighting.
There's space saved for a Palantine when she becomes available.
I'm also debating breaking off the Seraphim, Zephyrim, Pengines, and Celestine into a Patrol detachment, because while it will cost me CP, it will allow them to have a different doctrine [and also open up space for the third Exorcist]. I also kind of want the third exorcist, because if I can break open an extra APC on the first turn in shooting I'm in a position to kill off the passengers with my flame guns, which will put me ahead in the troops game. And if they go for the Exorcists, that's one more they have to kill to suppress that incoming fire, and they're leaving my own troop transports alone while theirs and their troops are dying.
This isn't really that groundbreaking. Everyone else I've talked to is also now working along similar lines after our first round of games and the post-game debriefs if they can right now, with cheap-troop loaded Falcons, Razorbacks, Repulsors, Impulsors, Chimera, and such proliferating heavily.
This list falls down for me a bit by trying to use seraphim and zephyrim the way you are. Valorous heart zephyrim hit like wet noodles and seraphim are obscenely expensive for their base profile now. You've got about 600pts wrapped up in 4 units that will combined only just put down 10 intercessors.
Dominions would accomplish the same thing while allowing you to cheese some secondaries with their scout move, threaten infiltrators early, be a lot cheaper, have access to simulacrums and still be able to threaten your opponent's lines if they need to. Quad SB combi-plas dominions would handle infantry while quint melta would make every tank sweat and both are cheaper than the zephyrim block, even in 10 girl squads.
Also, you're wasting a huge number of points on immolators. Rhinos will do the same job, better, for cheaper. They're literally suicide units in this list, why waste almost 50 points per?
If you want to keep the seraphim/zephyrim block, change the whole thing to BR. The damage is worth the lack of -2 immunity.
The core idea of the list I agree with, I just think Zephyrim are only every good in BR and Seraphim are far too expensive to be anything other than min-melta squads now.
Rhinos are only better transports. In an 'eliminate troops first' the fire support from the Immolators is better. (Still don't like their cost)
Do you Advance onto an objective and smoke t1, or shoot at whatever infantry you can?
Regarding Geminae, they also made a mistake on points. Geminae are now in the MNF under NAMED with two **, so their power swords are built into points at the 18 listed. so they are actually 10% cheaper in new points than in 8th. AOW points costed one at 23. I still fully agree with ERJAK that they are garbage given that they count for Assassinate each time they die if C rezes them (how its been ruled locally, I'd assume how it would be in official play). 36 pts is better for the pair, but the fact you heal THEN rez on 4W that give secondary points easily is just asking to lose games.
If they gave points on resurrection the Assasinate rule would say so, since it does not, they do not. The same rules interpretation would have Celestine give away 12 points for Slay the Warlord.
These objectives are 'end game' objectives. You're scored on which models are destroyed when the battle ends, you're not scored as you destroy them.
Regarding Geminae, they also made a mistake on points. Geminae are now in the MNF under NAMED with two **, so their power swords are built into points at the 18 listed. so they are actually 10% cheaper in new points than in 8th. AOW points costed one at 23. I still fully agree with ERJAK that they are garbage given that they count for Assassinate each time they die if C rezes them (how its been ruled locally, I'd assume how it would be in official play). 36 pts is better for the pair, but the fact you heal THEN rez on 4W that give secondary points easily is just asking to lose games.
If they gave points on resurrection the Assasinate rule would say so, since it does not, they do not. The same rules interpretation would have Celestine give away 12 points for Slay the Warlord.
These objectives are 'end game' objectives. You're scored on which models are destroyed when the battle ends, you're not scored as you destroy them.
That's a great argument, thank you, since TTR actually explicitly indicates that itself! Actually makes them a bit more worth it since they do get LOS themselves to give C better ablative to snipers for cheap, but still not sure the risk is worth the outcome.
U02dah4 wrote: Your argument would make sense if you hadn't sacrificed 14 wounds and any damage output
3BS squads come in at 165 so what you getting for 30pts extra
A ton of buffs 3 extra W and some passable CC
I'm not saying its ridiculously good but its certainly a consideration
My main problem with it - is that its too tall now lots of terrain isn't gf LoS blocking
Here's my thought on the Triumph:
It's got more than 9 wounds, it's an infantry character, it's more points than most tanks, it's got a profile of infantry. That alone makes me not want it. It will die in literally a heartbeat, even considering that it has a special rule to hide behind obscuring terrain.
2 characters with 8 wounds between them and an indestructible building will be almost infinitely more resilient than the Triumph of Saint Katherine because they can only be shot by snipers, but it can be shot by everything and it's dog that can draw range to it.
As for what I'm thinking of doing for 9e:
My past three games of 9e have instructed me that troops are critical, and more importantly, keeping them alive and on objectives is critical at pretty much at the expense of anything else up to and including destruction of enemy assets. In addition, being aggressive early is even more critical than before.
So, in light of that, I'm thinking:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
HQ Canoness
Celestine
Troops
BSSx6
Elites
Imagifier
Preacher
Zephyrim
Fast Attack
Seraphim
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines x2
Dedicated Transport
Immolator x4
Theory:
The 2 dismount squads will be for holding the rear and performing actions on objectives near the rear, lurking out of LoS if possible.
The 4 mounted squads will not plan on dismounting until forcibly dismounted by the destruction of their vehicle. Thus, they won't die until someone breaks open their tank, at which point they pop out and are still holding onto objectives hopefully at least until next turn. Maybe I'll give them meltaguns, I'm still not decided on that front.
The 4 tanks themselves will push up onto objectives and try to drive the enemy back from them with their flame guns. They'll eventually die, but when they do, troops will get out to continue holding the objectives.
Penitent Engines will basically be like the Immolators, but more dangerous in melee, and more aggressive to try to control the center with close quarters assets that are just a little bit too beefy for your average infantry unit to service efficiently. I'm debating between them and Mortifiers, but right now I'm on Penitent Engines because they're 10 points cheaper, fight in melee a little better, are a little tougher, I don't really care about the heavy bolters since I already have enough thanks to the invisible ones on all my tanks now, and most critically, I think 14"+3d6" is still enough threat range to engage most things on the board on turn 2. If the Pengines wind up being too slow, I'll switch them for Mortifiers.
The Exorcists will do what they do, and break tanks open.
The Celestine+Seraphim+Zephyrim block will provide an essentially self-contained strike force that can service tanks courtesy of the Seraphim and service any stripe of infantry courtesy of the Zephyrim & Celestine, is moderately hard to kill thanks to having a 4++, and can move 12" to take advantage of wherever the enemy is weakest or provide spot firefighting.
There's space saved for a Palantine when she becomes available.
I'm also debating breaking off the Seraphim, Zephyrim, Pengines, and Celestine into a Patrol detachment, because while it will cost me CP, it will allow them to have a different doctrine [and also open up space for the third Exorcist]. I also kind of want the third exorcist, because if I can break open an extra APC on the first turn in shooting I'm in a position to kill off the passengers with my flame guns, which will put me ahead in the troops game. And if they go for the Exorcists, that's one more they have to kill to suppress that incoming fire, and they're leaving my own troop transports alone while theirs and their troops are dying.
This isn't really that groundbreaking. Everyone else I've talked to is also now working along similar lines after our first round of games and the post-game debriefs if they can right now, with cheap-troop loaded Falcons, Razorbacks, Repulsors, Impulsors, Chimera, and such proliferating heavily.
This list falls down for me a bit by trying to use seraphim and zephyrim the way you are. Valorous heart zephyrim hit like wet noodles and seraphim are obscenely expensive for their base profile now. You've got about 600pts wrapped up in 4 units that will combined only just put down 10 intercessors.
Dominions would accomplish the same thing while allowing you to cheese some secondaries with their scout move, threaten infiltrators early, be a lot cheaper, have access to simulacrums and still be able to threaten your opponent's lines if they need to. Quad SB combi-plas dominions would handle infantry while quint melta would make every tank sweat and both are cheaper than the zephyrim block, even in 10 girl squads.
Also, you're wasting a huge number of points on immolators. Rhinos will do the same job, better, for cheaper. They're literally suicide units in this list, why waste almost 50 points per?
If you want to keep the seraphim/zephyrim block, change the whole thing to BR. The damage is worth the lack of -2 immunity.
The core idea of the list I agree with, I just think Zephyrim are only every good in BR and Seraphim are far too expensive to be anything other than min-melta squads now.
Rhinos are only better transports. In an 'eliminate troops first' the fire support from the Immolators is better. (Still don't like their cost)
Do you Advance onto an objective and smoke t1, or shoot at whatever infantry you can?
Immolators aren't worth it if they manage to stay alive and roast guard squads for the whole 5 turns. They're 125 points, at that cost they're the second worst model in the army behind the geminae superia.
In an absolutely ideal scenario you get first turn and an opponent who camps their cheap screen troops on the 24" line, you advance forward(you have to advance to be within flamer range) so you're on 2-4 deadzone objectives with all 4 immolators, the immolators fire at their guardsman or fire warriors doing 15 wounds, which sounds good until you realize that that's only 75 points of guardsman. If you had used rhinos you could have had a Conflagration missile exorcist and 4 Hunter killer missiles on the rhinos to shoot first turn(because they have more than a 12" range and don't need to advance to be in range of the objective and of shooting) or 3 mortifiers shooting their heavy bolters.
Immolators aren't worse than rhinos because of what rhinos can do, immolators are worse than rhinos because of what 47pts can do when you spend it on the something else.
U02dah4 wrote: Your argument would make sense if you hadn't sacrificed 14 wounds and any damage output
3BS squads come in at 165 so what you getting for 30pts extra
A ton of buffs 3 extra W and some passable CC
I'm not saying its ridiculously good but its certainly a consideration
My main problem with it - is that its too tall now lots of terrain isn't gf LoS blocking
Here's my thought on the Triumph:
It's got more than 9 wounds, it's an infantry character, it's more points than most tanks, it's got a profile of infantry. That alone makes me not want it. It will die in literally a heartbeat, even considering that it has a special rule to hide behind obscuring terrain.
2 characters with 8 wounds between them and an indestructible building will be almost infinitely more resilient than the Triumph of Saint Katherine because they can only be shot by snipers, but it can be shot by everything and it's dog that can draw range to it.
As for what I'm thinking of doing for 9e:
My past three games of 9e have instructed me that troops are critical, and more importantly, keeping them alive and on objectives is critical at pretty much at the expense of anything else up to and including destruction of enemy assets. In addition, being aggressive early is even more critical than before.
So, in light of that, I'm thinking:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
HQ Canoness
Celestine
Troops
BSSx6
Elites
Imagifier
Preacher
Zephyrim
Fast Attack
Seraphim
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines x2
Dedicated Transport
Immolator x4
Theory:
The 2 dismount squads will be for holding the rear and performing actions on objectives near the rear, lurking out of LoS if possible.
The 4 mounted squads will not plan on dismounting until forcibly dismounted by the destruction of their vehicle. Thus, they won't die until someone breaks open their tank, at which point they pop out and are still holding onto objectives hopefully at least until next turn. Maybe I'll give them meltaguns, I'm still not decided on that front.
The 4 tanks themselves will push up onto objectives and try to drive the enemy back from them with their flame guns. They'll eventually die, but when they do, troops will get out to continue holding the objectives.
Penitent Engines will basically be like the Immolators, but more dangerous in melee, and more aggressive to try to control the center with close quarters assets that are just a little bit too beefy for your average infantry unit to service efficiently. I'm debating between them and Mortifiers, but right now I'm on Penitent Engines because they're 10 points cheaper, fight in melee a little better, are a little tougher, I don't really care about the heavy bolters since I already have enough thanks to the invisible ones on all my tanks now, and most critically, I think 14"+3d6" is still enough threat range to engage most things on the board on turn 2. If the Pengines wind up being too slow, I'll switch them for Mortifiers.
The Exorcists will do what they do, and break tanks open.
The Celestine+Seraphim+Zephyrim block will provide an essentially self-contained strike force that can service tanks courtesy of the Seraphim and service any stripe of infantry courtesy of the Zephyrim & Celestine, is moderately hard to kill thanks to having a 4++, and can move 12" to take advantage of wherever the enemy is weakest or provide spot firefighting.
There's space saved for a Palantine when she becomes available.
I'm also debating breaking off the Seraphim, Zephyrim, Pengines, and Celestine into a Patrol detachment, because while it will cost me CP, it will allow them to have a different doctrine [and also open up space for the third Exorcist]. I also kind of want the third exorcist, because if I can break open an extra APC on the first turn in shooting I'm in a position to kill off the passengers with my flame guns, which will put me ahead in the troops game. And if they go for the Exorcists, that's one more they have to kill to suppress that incoming fire, and they're leaving my own troop transports alone while theirs and their troops are dying.
This isn't really that groundbreaking. Everyone else I've talked to is also now working along similar lines after our first round of games and the post-game debriefs if they can right now, with cheap-troop loaded Falcons, Razorbacks, Repulsors, Impulsors, Chimera, and such proliferating heavily.
This list falls down for me a bit by trying to use seraphim and zephyrim the way you are. Valorous heart zephyrim hit like wet noodles and seraphim are obscenely expensive for their base profile now. You've got about 600pts wrapped up in 4 units that will combined only just put down 10 intercessors.
Dominions would accomplish the same thing while allowing you to cheese some secondaries with their scout move, threaten infiltrators early, be a lot cheaper, have access to simulacrums and still be able to threaten your opponent's lines if they need to. Quad SB combi-plas dominions would handle infantry while quint melta would make every tank sweat and both are cheaper than the zephyrim block, even in 10 girl squads.
Also, you're wasting a huge number of points on immolators. Rhinos will do the same job, better, for cheaper. They're literally suicide units in this list, why waste almost 50 points per?
If you want to keep the seraphim/zephyrim block, change the whole thing to BR. The damage is worth the lack of -2 immunity.
The core idea of the list I agree with, I just think Zephyrim are only every good in BR and Seraphim are far too expensive to be anything other than min-melta squads now.
Rhinos are only better transports. In an 'eliminate troops first' the fire support from the Immolators is better. (Still don't like their cost)
Do you Advance onto an objective and smoke t1, or shoot at whatever infantry you can?
Immolators aren't worth it if they manage to stay alive and roast guard squads for the whole 5 turns. They're 125 points, at that cost they're the second worst model in the army behind the geminae superia.
In an absolutely ideal scenario you get first turn and an opponent who camps their cheap screen troops on the 24" line, you advance forward(you have to advance to be within flamer range) so you're on 2-4 deadzone objectives with all 4 immolators, the immolators fire at their guardsman or fire warriors doing 15 wounds, which sounds good until you realize that that's only 75 points of guardsman. If you had used rhinos you could have had a Conflagration missile exorcist and 4 Hunter killer missiles on the rhinos to shoot first turn(because they have more than a 12" range and don't need to advance to be in range of the objective and of shooting) or 3 mortifiers shooting their heavy bolters.
Immolators aren't worse than rhinos because of what rhinos can do, immolators are worse than rhinos because of what 47pts can do when you spend it on the something else.
That's a very binary assessment of Immolators that also ignores my acknowledgement that they're still overcosted and that I've argued the changes in 9th has made them worse before the point increase.
Do we have an authoritative reference for the new points values yet? Or just pretty-reliable-leaks? I’d love a link to whatever people think the best source is. Thanks.
On Triumph, it is worth pointing out that while you can replicate it's aura abilities with a smaller model a 6" aura off the triumph base will cover considerably more area than those solos.
Whether you value that or not is up to you I suppose.
SisterSydney wrote: Do we have an authoritative reference for the new points values yet? Or just pretty-reliable-leaks? I’d love a link to whatever people think the best source is. Thanks.
The Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual was released with Indomitus on Sat, so they are officially available in the two pack book collection which also includes the GT2020 rulebook for tournament quality game rules. They are a bit different than the main rulebook's versions, both in what some secondaries give for points as well as mission packs. BS was also updated with current points with just a few errors here and there (hunter killer missiles still being 6 in some places) for us. But mostly there (can edit the roster for those to be correct if you need to).
Regarding Geminae, they also made a mistake on points. Geminae are now in the MNF under NAMED with two **, so their power swords are built into points at the 18 listed. so they are actually 10% cheaper in new points than in 8th. AOW points costed one at 23. I still fully agree with ERJAK that they are garbage given that they count for Assassinate each time they die if C rezes them (how its been ruled locally, I'd assume how it would be in official play). 36 pts is better for the pair, but the fact you heal THEN rez on 4W that give secondary points easily is just asking to lose games.
They became wargear included in ca19 for 16 pts. So 2 pts price hike.
davidgr33n wrote: I plan on a pure infantry force (Bloody Rose) with the exception of 3 Mortifiers for “While We Stand We Fight”, so how many meltas (of all flavors) should a 2000 point force bring? Would 25 be enough? 30?
Just wondering thoughts on this.
You really have no model more expensive than 60? Those are ratker bad targets for wmswf secondary though. Durability of wet paper so either you hide somewhere never doing any damage or it's 0 vp to you
They’re my 3 most expensive models, so 1 CP puts them in reserve all game long or at a pinch I bring them on together toward endgame somewhere out of reach and use their Hvy Bolters. 15 VP for 180 pts and still have utility in keeping the opponent guessing or if I do need them.
My other most expensive model is a Canoness at 55, but I can drop her plasma pistol, make her 50, and bring 3 Pen Engines to do the same thing. They don’t have the flexibility of Mortifiers but keeping them in reserve basically nets me 15 VP for 10 pts per VP.
Even at best opponent has 2 turns(2.5 if you go first). Would be doubtful of their survival. And nearly 200 that will then do nothing in game
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: Do we have an authoritative reference for the new points values yet? Or just pretty-reliable-leaks? I’d love a link to whatever people think the best source is. Thanks.
Are we thinking Dominions with SBs and maybe a combi-melta on the superior or some combination? I'm trying to find points to get Blessed Bolt to have some usefulness, but i feel like SBs were priced out with the melta decrease making them a bit more viable on the vanguard. Thoughts?
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: Are we thinking Dominions with SBs and maybe a combi-melta on the superior or some combination? I'm trying to find points to get Blessed Bolt to have some usefulness, but i feel like SBs were priced out with the melta decrease making them a bit more viable on the vanguard. Thoughts?
Combi-plasma synergizes better than combi-melta. Both SB and melta Doms have their place although the melta squads are an EXTREMELY terrain dependent early game threat while the SB squads are a cheap way to cheese some secondaries and maybe blast an intercessor squad off an objective with Blessed Bolts and Divine Guidance.
Basically, stormbolters are a better all round pick whereas the melta can potentially highroll a value target with favorable terrain setup and some good advance rolls.
U02dah4 wrote:SB still. The most valuable thing that dominions do now is the pregame move. To get to objectives
I think this ability incredibly devalued this edition. Scoring doesn't happen until the beginning of turn 2. That's plenty of time for troops to get to and take them and to kick the dominions, who won't survive very long at all since thy're dismounts, off of them anyway.
And that's before you get to the point where oh, they have to stop 9" from enemy models, oh, there's Infiltrators/Eliminators already there. Might as well buy BSSIMO right now, since BSS are obsec and cheaper and are going to get the same value.
U02dah4 wrote: Your argument would make sense if you hadn't sacrificed 14 wounds and any damage output
3BS squads come in at 165 so what you getting for 30pts extra
A ton of buffs 3 extra W and some passable CC
I'm not saying its ridiculously good but its certainly a consideration
My main problem with it - is that its too tall now lots of terrain isn't gf LoS blocking
Here's my thought on the Triumph:
It's got more than 9 wounds, it's an infantry character, it's more points than most tanks, it's got a profile of infantry. That alone makes me not want it. It will die in literally a heartbeat, even considering that it has a special rule to hide behind obscuring terrain.
2 characters with 8 wounds between them and an indestructible building will be almost infinitely more resilient than the Triumph of Saint Katherine because they can only be shot by snipers, but it can be shot by everything and it's dog that can draw range to it.
As for what I'm thinking of doing for 9e:
My past three games of 9e have instructed me that troops are critical, and more importantly, keeping them alive and on objectives is critical at pretty much at the expense of anything else up to and including destruction of enemy assets. In addition, being aggressive early is even more critical than before.
So, in light of that, I'm thinking:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
HQ Canoness
Celestine
Troops
BSSx6
Elites
Imagifier
Preacher
Zephyrim
Fast Attack
Seraphim
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines x2
Dedicated Transport
Immolator x4
Theory:
The 2 dismount squads will be for holding the rear and performing actions on objectives near the rear, lurking out of LoS if possible.
The 4 mounted squads will not plan on dismounting until forcibly dismounted by the destruction of their vehicle. Thus, they won't die until someone breaks open their tank, at which point they pop out and are still holding onto objectives hopefully at least until next turn. Maybe I'll give them meltaguns, I'm still not decided on that front.
The 4 tanks themselves will push up onto objectives and try to drive the enemy back from them with their flame guns. They'll eventually die, but when they do, troops will get out to continue holding the objectives.
Penitent Engines will basically be like the Immolators, but more dangerous in melee, and more aggressive to try to control the center with close quarters assets that are just a little bit too beefy for your average infantry unit to service efficiently. I'm debating between them and Mortifiers, but right now I'm on Penitent Engines because they're 10 points cheaper, fight in melee a little better, are a little tougher, I don't really care about the heavy bolters since I already have enough thanks to the invisible ones on all my tanks now, and most critically, I think 14"+3d6" is still enough threat range to engage most things on the board on turn 2. If the Pengines wind up being too slow, I'll switch them for Mortifiers.
The Exorcists will do what they do, and break tanks open.
The Celestine+Seraphim+Zephyrim block will provide an essentially self-contained strike force that can service tanks courtesy of the Seraphim and service any stripe of infantry courtesy of the Zephyrim & Celestine, is moderately hard to kill thanks to having a 4++, and can move 12" to take advantage of wherever the enemy is weakest or provide spot firefighting.
There's space saved for a Palantine when she becomes available.
I'm also debating breaking off the Seraphim, Zephyrim, Pengines, and Celestine into a Patrol detachment, because while it will cost me CP, it will allow them to have a different doctrine [and also open up space for the third Exorcist]. I also kind of want the third exorcist, because if I can break open an extra APC on the first turn in shooting I'm in a position to kill off the passengers with my flame guns, which will put me ahead in the troops game. And if they go for the Exorcists, that's one more they have to kill to suppress that incoming fire, and they're leaving my own troop transports alone while theirs and their troops are dying.
This isn't really that groundbreaking. Everyone else I've talked to is also now working along similar lines after our first round of games and the post-game debriefs if they can right now, with cheap-troop loaded Falcons, Razorbacks, Repulsors, Impulsors, Chimera, and such proliferating heavily.
This list falls down for me a bit by trying to use seraphim and zephyrim the way you are. Valorous heart zephyrim hit like wet noodles and seraphim are obscenely expensive for their base profile now. You've got about 600pts wrapped up in 4 units that will combined only just put down 10 intercessors.
Dominions would accomplish the same thing while allowing you to cheese some secondaries with their scout move, threaten infiltrators early, be a lot cheaper, have access to simulacrums and still be able to threaten your opponent's lines if they need to. Quad SB combi-plas dominions would handle infantry while quint melta would make every tank sweat and both are cheaper than the zephyrim block, even in 10 girl squads.
Also, you're wasting a huge number of points on immolators. Rhinos will do the same job, better, for cheaper. They're literally suicide units in this list, why waste almost 50 points per?
If you want to keep the seraphim/zephyrim block, change the whole thing to BR. The damage is worth the lack of -2 immunity.
The core idea of the list I agree with, I just think Zephyrim are only every good in BR and Seraphim are far too expensive to be anything other than min-melta squads now.
Here's my thoughts of Doms vs. Seraphim/Zephyrim:
Dominions don't currently do anything for me, and are effectively more expensive special weapons battle sisters. I would rather take BSS over Dom, because BSS are Obsec and Doms are not.
Seraphim/Zephyrim, with Celestine, are 4++, making them fairly resilient on their own to leave the safety of bubbles and things as an independent strike force. They're fast, so I can get them on the board where they need to be, which Dominions aren't.
Finally, they probably don't need to kill more than 10 Intercessors, because intercessors come in squads of 5-10 and if there's more than 10 on a single objective the rest of my army probably has good enough board control that I'm lined up to win anyway, or I've already lost the game.
Right now, the idea is that offensively the Meltagun Seraphim can crack a tank, and then the whole block can charge and destroy the unit within it, thus being able to clear an objective in one turn and have sufficient on-board mass to require addressing and turn the flank. Defensively, with 12" move, they can rush to reinforce the center or main center of gravity. Dominions can do none of those things, and Repentia require more support, are also no longer S8, aren't as fast, and can be cleared offhandedly instead of requiring a dedicated effort to remove.
I am, however, as mentioned, still on the fence about whether I want them to be in a BR or AS patrol. If I cut them and the Pengines off into a patrol, I lose 2 CP, but I also clear the extra HS slot to be used by a third Exorcist. I'm not actually entirely sold on the extra Exorcist slot and the buffs/stratagem options to the Zephyrim and Seraphim being worth the 2 CP, especially if I also want a Heroine in the Making or Venerated Saint or Opened Reliquaries or something. Fundamentally, the Zephyrim, Celestine, and Seraphim are adequate without the buffs to destroy most things they might be asked to destroy. Fundamentally, one should not pay for capability that isn't required; they don't need to be the best, they need to meet requirements.
Lammia wrote:Rhinos are only better transports. In an 'eliminate troops first' the fire support from the Immolators is better. (Still don't like their cost)
Do you Advance onto an objective and smoke t1, or shoot at whatever infantry you can?
I intend to advance & shoot at enemy units. Specifically, I intend to try to crack open enemy dedicated transports with exorcists, and then try to kill or deplete the guys inside with Immolator flame guns.
The thing is, the dedicated transports need to be tanks in their own right because I don't plan to dismount until the transport is blown up. I plan to send them to the objectives I want to get, so I can't go with 2x Rhinos for 4x BSS, because then they can't threaten as many objectives.
The basic gist of it is; I have 4 tanks, and when you kill them, there's an obsec infantry unit that hopefully you won't have a good opportunity to destroy until the following turn still left on the objective. On the offense, I have anti-infantry flame guns that are very mobile, so they can handle horde infantry and still threaten the units that will be generally riding inside any of the enemy's dedicated transports that the Exorcists can break open.
Not gonna quote the whole thing so this is for ILK:
Obsec isn't great honestly, especially for battle sisters. If you've got less than 40 on an objective they'll just kill you off of it.
PRIMARY scoring is turn two, and is mostly an irrlevant concern because we're really good at scoring primary. Dominions let you cheese some of the secondaries like putting down 4 banners or some of the mission specific ones.
That plan makes immolators, easily the second worst unit in the codex EVEN WORSE. Combining your firepower into your 'i'm not going to give up this objective until you kill my transport AND the guys inside ' makes both of them worse. Especially when you consider that the 4 immolators together don't have enough firepower to kill 5 intercessors on even dice(you JUST BARELY do if you run them argent shroud and can add the heavy bolters. 500pts of tank barely kills 100pts of troopers).
If you ran rhinos you would be able to put that 200ish points into something that's actually good at shooting and then your opponent would still have to kill all the vehicles on the objectives and all the people inside. But by doing so they leave your actual damaging units untouched.
There is not a single use case in the game for 125pt immolators. Everything they can do can be done far better by a rhino+ an actually good unit.
ERJAK wrote: Not gonna quote the whole thing so this is for ILK:
Obsec isn't great honestly, especially for battle sisters. If you've got less than 40 on an objective they'll just kill you off of it.
PRIMARY scoring is turn two, and is mostly an irrlevant concern because we're really good at scoring primary. Dominions let you cheese some of the secondaries like putting down 4 banners or some of the mission specific ones.
I'm confused. You say you need 40 to take and hold an objective and not get killed off of it, and then say that we're really good at scoring primary. Those are conflicting statements.
Figuring out how to adapt my army list to ninth edition... at this point I might just wait until I see a sisters codex, given that I'm not risking bringing covid back to my family anyway.
So had my first small game yesterday. Tried all foot sisters and I dont see anyway to make that work.
I would love to make an all infantry list work but with meltas being our main go to their short range means we are eating 2 turns of shooting before we can even deal much damage.
Has anyone had luck with foot only or are rhinos/immolators that mandatory?
Also am I missing something in the codex but where do Celestians get there killing power from? The 3 Meltas?
Incognito15 wrote: So had my first small game yesterday. Tried all foot sisters and I dont see anyway to make that work.
I would love to make an all infantry list work but with meltas being our main go to their short range means we are eating 2 turns of shooting before we can even deal much damage.
Has anyone had luck with foot only or are rhinos/immolators that mandatory?
Also am I missing something in the codex but where do Celestians get there killing power from? The 3 Meltas?
I don't think anyone has enough 9th games or a good enough understanding of meta to tell you if foot spam is viable
I got a 1500 pt game coming up on saturday. So will try them again.
I see your list has a lot of admech raiders. Stat line for them is meh i take it theres a strategem that makes them that good?
You can't judge anything about 9th at 600pts. I know that they're pushing smaller games with incursion missions and w/e but the game basically doesn't function at all until 1500.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the Invader ATV profile got leaked. Their multimelta is 2 shots, Damage d6+2 at half range.
That INSTANTLY makes retributors and MM immolators pretty goddam good if we get it. might actually be so good that it obsoletes the exorcist.
I'm pretty excited for what the new Multi-Melta rules might mean for Retributors and Immolators.
In the new Space Marine datasheets, Multi-Meltas are changed to Heavy 2 and instead of 2d6 take the highest for damage, it's +2 damage in half range.
8 Melta shots from Retributors makes them a credible alternative to Exorcists for ranged anti-tank, and using a Miracle dice, they can deal 8 damage when they get through.
The Twin-Melta Immolator would also outshoot a quad-Las Predator.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.
Totally true, but I'm personally a new collector and a slow painter, so if I get a whiff of something I want to add I need to get started like...now.
So retributors jumped to the top of my list just for funsies. Not like I'll get started until these are official, even if they just apply to Marines at first.
When the new Marine Codex drops they're either going to need to bump up the cost of the Marines MultiMelta or update the weapon across the imperium.
There's so many shared guns and it's extremely crappy to pay the same points cost for the old and new, given the disparity. It's more than twice as good.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.
It also means a very likely nerf to miracle dice. Even if the new melta rule only applies to multimeltas, they can't really have us out there guaranteeing 8(or 9 with storm of fire) damage melta shots, can they?
If the new melta rule gets put on standard melta guns, I have money on them bringing back the fething awful beta codex AoFs.
The teasings of Heavy 2 Multi-meltas and 2 damage Heavy Bolters got me WAY too excited.
A squad of 10 rets with 4 MMs already have a permanent place in my army. Looking at Eradicators doing more work for almost half of the price was a bit disheartening, but this... doubling the output of the squad... definitely will make people have to sink more fire into it instead of largely ignoring/avoiding it. Good day for me!
I think D2 Heavy Bolters may be a little much. Valorous Heart foils NuMarines pretty hard, giving them HBs in Ret squads that'll start mowing over Primaris squads will definitely scare the meta a good bit.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.
It also means a very likely nerf to miracle dice. Even if the new melta rule only applies to multimeltas, they can't really have us out there guaranteeing 8(or 9 with storm of fire) damage melta shots, can they?
If the new melta rule gets put on standard melta guns, I have money on them bringing back the fething awful beta codex AoFs.
I'm actually thinking it'll be multi-melta specific, if it's real at all. You'd think they would apply it to the Eradicators from Indomitus if the goal was to apply this change to all melta. But that's just me wildly speculating.
Eh, the ATV could be a more updated thought and the Eradicator could be relying on an older melta rule.
It could also be the difference between a melta rifle and a multi-melta.
I think +2 damage at half range is a good buff for melta. And even having the potential to get 9 damage on 1 damage die (if it is allowed to violate the "max of 6" rule) is strong... until you realize that ranged artillery unit is getting into charge range of stuff (being within 12", or 18" if using 2 CP).
Sure, the Rets are going to be encouraged to stomp up the field a little more... but it doesn't come without risks. Getting them tagged is going to cost you at least 2 CP to disengage and shoot... 4 CP if they're tri-pointed. If it doesn't just flat out cost you the whole unit from getting smashed by the opponent.
Edit: Reviewed the min/max die roll, and it says it can be modified ABOVE its maximum value, but not below 1. So 9 damage on a d6 is fair game. Can one-shot 8 wound models if that rule turns out to be true, but still need 2 or more to get through to melt most vehicles... so while strong, it doesn't change things MUCH. Hope it does pan out to be true.
Double the shots, especially for a unit with Armorium Cherubs, is itself a fantastic benefit before you even consider the new damage rule. It makes these weapons much more competitive than they are today.
A 110 points Retributors unit with 2 meltas and two Cherubs will now reach out with 8 shots.
A Celestian squad upgrading from a normal melta to a multi now gains an extra shot and range, and thanks to rerolls they were already hitting on the move at 75% accuracy near a Canoness.
I'm a bit confused on the Admech soup. According to GT2020pg 4, if tournies are using the GT rules now, Battle-Forged armies must be selected, and the KEYWORD cannot be keyword Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids unless its a Fort. So SoB and Admech only share Faction: Imperium as a keyword, so to me this seems like it would no longer be allowed to soup with us under new rules. Now, organizers may allow it, but it isn't RAW according to the new rules that supposedly everyone is planning on following. I'd caution going down the path of souping this with if we want to actually be GT2020 capable until ITC/ETC look to create actual packets of their own that might bypass this.
Regarding the melta discussion above, I think MMs will be a bit more viable. The issue i see is no one used them in 8th. So they are trying to revamp their viability back to what they used to be. MMs were at one point one of the most feared weapons in mid ranged fights. Given the amounts of various firepower out there, they took a back seat. And only SoB can default to an 8W granted shot, so its not like the imperium as a whole gets it. We give up things for that capability. I think a 32p model putting out 24" Heavy 2 shots at T3/1W with some ability to miracle allows us a competitive fight to the Eradicators. 140 gets us 30" threat range on 8 melta shots, T3, 5Ws. 120 gets them 30-36" range, 6 shots, T5/9Ws. That's much more comparable now for the MMs on what we can get in return for the points on the Rets
Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote: All the units in each detachment- not all the units in your army
Its the same wording from 8th they have just relocated it and added a bit before to remove specialist detachments
I have one detatchment that is wholey admech and one wholey SoB I meet the requirement
Purifying Tempest wrote: Eh, the ATV could be a more updated thought and the Eradicator could be relying on an older melta rule.
It could also be the difference between a melta rifle and a multi-melta.
I think +2 damage at half range is a good buff for melta. And even having the potential to get 9 damage on 1 damage die (if it is allowed to violate the "max of 6" rule) is strong... until you realize that ranged artillery unit is getting into charge range of stuff (being within 12", or 18" if using 2 CP).
Sure, the Rets are going to be encouraged to stomp up the field a little more... but it doesn't come without risks. Getting them tagged is going to cost you at least 2 CP to disengage and shoot... 4 CP if they're tri-pointed. If it doesn't just flat out cost you the whole unit from getting smashed by the opponent.
Edit: Reviewed the min/max die roll, and it says it can be modified ABOVE its maximum value, but not below 1. So 9 damage on a d6 is fair game. Can one-shot 8 wound models if that rule turns out to be true, but still need 2 or more to get through to melt most vehicles... so while strong, it doesn't change things MUCH. Hope it does pan out to be true.
Fun fact, that same rules interaction lets you save a mortifiers from an AP-5 shot with a 6 and 3 other miracle dice
Also, by the time they get tagged, you've shot at least twice if you're not a scrub.
And you don't NEED melta range fod them to now be really, really good. 12 melta shots out of a unit as cheap as rets is plenty great on its own.
Oh, I am 100% Heavy 2 is so much more significant than 1d6+2. I think the damage change is just... novel. The Rate of Fire change is... very altering for the Retributor squad that was languishing in the face of units like Eradicators and the Exorcist.
I was more arguing against Rets getting much value out of the half range boost being of value to them. They're going to be doing their damage from further away.
I'm also intrigued on what this means for the TLMM turret on the Immolator. Sure, it is still a pricey transport, but putting out more dakka than a quad-las predator is something (it does have the hull mounted HB). Transports got a sizable buff in 9th with being able to move your slow foot models into a proper position. I guess time and testing may tell for that, though.
I'd consider 145 pts for a 4 shots of MM at T7/10W transport. At that point, after it drops the kids off at the pool, its still doing some damage for its point value potential. Pricey, for sure, but damage potential is there, and is far superior to the flamer for 20 pts. Take on the possibility of HBs moving to D2 across the board with the invictor spoiler today and that is a rather formidable transport suddenly. Or even the TLHB option at the 125 point has the potential for 9 shots S5 -1 D2 damage that can shoot into combat, and i'd consider that at least against a Rhino. That can clear an intercessor squad on its own and make its points back as my transport. If HBs are update to Heavy 1 S5 D2, i don't think that is worth 15 pts on a vehicle and really kills the forced inclusion on many vehicles in the game, so the leak is TBD on how true the change is to models outside of the invictor.
My main concern with the change over is that while you get more output from the transport, you drop the troop capacity so we're not towing max Repentia or Celestials anymore, and i don't know if that would be the direction to go for board control even with the extra shooting. Considering they give us such good mid board control on countering mid objectives, having to drop 3-4 (if bringing characters to assist) per squad is rough.
What I find interesting with the melta proposal is that if FW codex is released and Repressors stay similar, an MM Ret squad warehoused in that puts just about any other tanks firing capacity to shame and only comes out at 249 for the pair, armourium cherubs/simulacrum aside. Its a cheap way to get T7 armor 12W ablative on 8 MM shots in range quickly, and they still no longer suffer the move and shoot. And possibly better if the firing port rules read as they are now where the restrictions that apply to the vehicle also apply to them since the vehicle now CAN shoot into combat at -1. It could be a very spicy combination. But could also not even exists if Repressors go the way of Legends since they aren't in MFM.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: I'd consider 145 pts for a 4 shots of MM at T7/10W transport. At that point, after it drops the kids off at the pool, its still doing some damage for its point value potential. Pricey, for sure, but damage potential is there, and is far superior to the flamer for 20 pts. Take on the possibility of HBs moving to D2 across the board with the invictor spoiler today and that is a rather formidable transport suddenly. Or even the TLHB option at the 125 point has the potential for 9 shots S5 -1 D2 damage that can shoot into combat, and i'd consider that at least against a Rhino. That can clear an intercessor squad on its own and make its points back as my transport. If HBs are update to Heavy 1 S5 D2, i don't think that is worth 15 pts on a vehicle and really kills the forced inclusion on many vehicles in the game, so the leak is TBD on how true the change is to models outside of the invictor.
My main concern with the change over is that while you get more output from the transport, you drop the troop capacity so we're not towing max Repentia or Celestials anymore, and i don't know if that would be the direction to go for board control even with the extra shooting. Considering they give us such good mid board control on countering mid objectives, having to drop 3-4 (if bringing characters to assist) per squad is rough.
What I find interesting with the melta proposal is that if FW codex is released and Repressors stay similar, an MM Ret squad warehoused in that puts just about any other tanks firing capacity to shame and only comes out at 249 for the pair, armourium cherubs/simulacrum aside. Its a cheap way to get T7 armor 12W ablative on 8 MM shots in range quickly, and they still no longer suffer the move and shoot. And possibly better if the firing port rules read as they are now where the restrictions that apply to the vehicle also apply to them since the vehicle now CAN shoot into combat at -1. It could be a very spicy combination. But could also not even exists if Repressors go the way of Legends since they aren't in MFM.
Repressors are almost certainly going to legends.
And I think the thing with the immolator is that if we get these new melta stats, the immolator will have the output of a lot of army's battle tanks. You're more than doubling it's output while keeping it the same 145pts, all you really need is to have something it can drop on objectives when it dies and it'll be worth that price easy.
The fact that you can put things like repentia in one is just a bonus at that point. Same as being able to guarantee an explosion.
If the melta rule goes to Immos, I would definately consider putting an immo in reserve to outflank and get at any targets that my exos can't reach due to obscuring or whatever.
In fact if they do get it, I will definately be doing this.
Don't get your hopes up getting those mm's. Gw hasn't Historically been shy of having same name, different rules(there's already 2 differerent multi-melta) and bespoke datasheets make it easy
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Purifying Tempest wrote: The teasings of Heavy 2 Multi-meltas and 2 damage Heavy Bolters got me WAY too excited.
A squad of 10 rets with 4 MMs already have a permanent place in my army. Looking at Eradicators doing more work for almost half of the price was a bit disheartening, but this... doubling the output of the squad... definitely will make people have to sink more fire into it instead of largely ignoring/avoiding it. Good day for me!
I think D2 Heavy Bolters may be a little much. Valorous Heart foils NuMarines pretty hard, giving them HBs in Ret squads that'll start mowing over Primaris squads will definitely scare the meta a good bit.
What's so fun about dam2 heavy bolter? You lose 2 shots. 3 dam1 shots vs 1 dam2 shots...even vs w2 models you lose off
The assumption that it stays at its current profile. I think BOTH changes (the extra MM shot AND D2 HB rounds at Heavy 3) will push Sororitas into an ugly position. I think Heavy 1 D2 Heavy Bolters will be a VERY disappointing change, and makes very little sense for 15 point tax on ALL of our chassis except for the Rhino. You want to see some salt? Lol, strap a HB onto all of our vehicles and then destroy the profile to something unusable like that... coupled with paying MORE to strap it to said vehicles.
I mean, there's bone-headed moves, but Heavy 1 at Damage 2 to a 15 point tax to like 75% of our fleet is terrible even by design's standards. Unless they want to sell more Rhino chassis... I guess that's always a possibility.
I'm not saying it is going to happen, and I'll definitely believe it when I see it... but there's so many indicators for the Multi-Melta change at this point.
1) It was spoiled on a new data slate for 9th edition.
2) The lascannon is, for whatever reason, priced at 5 points lower than the current MM. It was already arguably better with the extra range and abundance of invulnerable saves on many of the appropriate targets... now it is just OBVIOUSLY better.
3) The sheer existence of Eradicators... though external balance means very little to GW, but Eradicators are criminally underpriced vs every other similar unit... perhaps even internally to the SM codex. I honestly don't know if Devastators can take MMs, but no reasonable SM player concerned with performance would make that swap if able. Largely due to point 2, but if for some reason they NEEDED melta... then they'd just bring Eradicators.
I don't assume they're going to do much with the Heavy Bolter, but it looks like they're supposedly toying with making it D2... at some indetermined # of shots that may be 1 or 3. If it is Heavy 1 at 15 points... it better to a flat 6 damage. But it is safe to assume that WON'T be the case, so the only reasonable assumption is Heavy 3 at D2. Which turns Sisters into NuMarine killers of meta-tossing levels. And I'm not sure how much I like that idea, in all honesty. Though, I guess it will sell A LOT of extra Sororitas boxes, for those who participate in those conspiracies.
There is a leaked image of the Invictor heavy bolter profile as 1 shot, 2D. If this extends to heavy bolters across the board, this would be a severe nerf to an already meh weapon. I don't have time to sim, but 3 shots at 1D vs MEQ averages out at 2/3 of a wound inflicted. 1 shot at 2D vs MEQ averages 2/9 of a wound inflicted on single-wound models, 4/9 of a wound vs multi-wound models. That's at best 2/3 as effective as the 8th edition heavy bolter.
However, it is not entirely clear that the "pistol" heavy bolter of the Invictor Warsuit will continue to be called a Heavy Bolter. I could easily be renamed, as it is obvious from the image that the 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubbers will be a new combined weapon with a single profile.
For those saying a TLMM Immolator is too high priced for the firepower (assuming each MM is Heavy 2 for a 4-shot turret)... look at the Quad Las Predator: 170 (Pred) vs 145 (Immolator). Predator has better range and +1 W... Immolator has transport capability and a Heavy Bolter on the hull.
I don't see Predators rocking the meta or anything, but it is a fairly close comparison on chassis, defense, and firepower. And we get a cheaper Predator that can rush a small squad of ObSec gals onto a point and sit there while laying down some pretty potent firepower (something the Predator cannot do). Keep the unit embarked, and now the opponent has to punch through the tank and the unit in order to deny you the points next turn.
Melissia wrote: Hmm. Immolators are even worse than before it seems. Glad I went with entirely Rhinos, but that's kinda sad.
If they roll out heavy 2 and +2 damage at half range to all multi meltas across the board then a 4shot melta immolator isnt looking too bad anymore
a) not quaranteed to happen
b) that will happen in next codex at earliest so....2030?-)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Purifying Tempest wrote: For those saying a TLMM Immolator is too high priced for the firepower (assuming each MM is Heavy 2 for a 4-shot turret)... look at the Quad Las Predator: 170 (Pred) vs 145 (Immolator). Predator has better range and +1 W... Immolator has transport capability and a Heavy Bolter on the hull.
I don't see Predators rocking the meta or anything, but it is a fairly close comparison on chassis, defense, and firepower. And we get a cheaper Predator that can rush a small squad of ObSec gals onto a point and sit there while laying down some pretty potent firepower (something the Predator cannot do). Keep the unit embarked, and now the opponent has to punch through the tank and the unit in order to deny you the points next turn.
You assume weapon would stay same cost. With present costs it would pretty much negate lascannons so doubtful.
Lascannons are cheaper and have twice the range. Right now, the current lascannon sheet negates the multi-melta, so buffing the multi-melta just to nerf the price boggles the mind.
Edit: Even if they double the cost of the MM, though, it would add... 25 points to the Immolator? Which puts it at the same cost as a quad-las predator? And not that the Predator saturates the environment or anything, but I think if they're the same price, it is a much more difficult problem (but I think the Predator still wins because it can do its business from a further range). The problem with a 40-50 point Multi-melta is that Retributors are getting slammed. 52 points for a Ret with a MM? Squad is sitting on 230 points for 5 with cherubs? Then compare that mess to Eradicators and cry
Purifying Tempest wrote: For those saying a TLMM Immolator is too high priced for the firepower (assuming each MM is Heavy 2 for a 4-shot turret)... look at the Quad Las Predator: 170 (Pred) vs 145 (Immolator). Predator has better range and +1 W... Immolator has transport capability and a Heavy Bolter on the hull.
Not too comparable, the predator can just sit back and snipe and exists in a space marine army, it doesn't have to approach.
Melissia wrote: Hmm. Immolators are even worse than before it seems. Glad I went with entirely Rhinos, but that's kinda sad.
If they roll out heavy 2 and +2 damage at half range to all multi meltas across the board then a 4shot melta immolator isnt looking too bad anymore
a) not quaranteed to happen
b) that will happen in next codex at earliest so....2030?-)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Purifying Tempest wrote: For those saying a TLMM Immolator is too high priced for the firepower (assuming each MM is Heavy 2 for a 4-shot turret)... look at the Quad Las Predator: 170 (Pred) vs 145 (Immolator). Predator has better range and +1 W... Immolator has transport capability and a Heavy Bolter on the hull.
I don't see Predators rocking the meta or anything, but it is a fairly close comparison on chassis, defense, and firepower. And we get a cheaper Predator that can rush a small squad of ObSec gals onto a point and sit there while laying down some pretty potent firepower (something the Predator cannot do). Keep the unit embarked, and now the opponent has to punch through the tank and the unit in order to deny you the points next turn.
You assume weapon would stay same cost. With present costs it would pretty much negate lascannons so doubtful.
Flipside, at the current cost and statline it negates the multimelta so this doesn't seem to be a big issue to GW.
Purifying Tempest wrote: For those saying a TLMM Immolator is too high priced for the firepower (assuming each MM is Heavy 2 for a 4-shot turret)... look at the Quad Las Predator: 170 (Pred) vs 145 (Immolator). Predator has better range and +1 W... Immolator has transport capability and a Heavy Bolter on the hull.
Not too comparable, the predator can just sit back and snipe and exists in a space marine army, it doesn't have to approach.
Which really isn't much of a benefit in 9th. The fact that the immolator wants to be up close and personal with the new MM setup is a boon. It actually forces you to play to the mission just utilizing its rules.
Also, not for nothing but the 6+ invul makes the preds extra wound irrelevant.
You say that like it is a bug and not a feature. A Immolator with a 24" Heavy 4 S8 AP -4 D d6(+2 within half range) for 145 points is pretty spicy for rushing forward and sitting on an objective while carrying an infantry squad. Nothing moderately heavy wants to be anywhere close to that. So either your opponent is shooting it (and not your Exorcist) or it is either shooting away or being avoided. These are both good results.
I'm not saying it isn't too expensive, but it is much better than the current MM Immolator.
As for whether this change will get rolled out to all Imperial Factions should it drop in Codex Space Marines, we will have to wait and see if they view it as a minor change (current MMs that are differentt) or a major change (Demolisher Cannon that is FAQed in every book to match the updated rules).
I'd say Argent Shroud and Valorous Heart Immolators make out pretty well if this change applies to all MM and not just the Invader's. Being able to advance and fire a multi-melta increases its threat range considerably. Valorous Heart gives it a slightly more durable frame with the 6+++ and ignoring AP-1....
... or you can go with Martyred Lady and get a Miracle Die for sending it off on a suicide run.
I happen to think 145 for that output, even HB changes aside, is a good call for a transport. Putting a squad of girls on an obj and having the firepower to kill just about anything on a smaller board that wants to compete for the spot is having to do some choices there. That isn't to say they couldn't have their own MMs doing the same to us, but given that a rhino transport is 78 atm and 4 meltas on a Ret squad is 140 for that firepower right now, we'd be looking at 218 to come close to it. 145 vs 218 looks pretty damn good compared to each other. Its only net positive to us if they actually make that change. And i think it makes the MM worth it. Las has the range and S bonus, and i don't think all armies will take it if they do go H2. Some gun lines that want the Las wouldn't want to get within 24. We have a bit more durability. C behind 2 of those carting up the BSSs makes them pretty durable tanks at 5++ with miracle options and can keep up with their move. Add in the VH and i agree, they are pretty potent.
I'd also be more interested in Mortifiers if HB does to go D2. Assault capable, so they can advance and fire, versions that also want to be in melee doing 6 shots at D2 is fairly nasty for 60 pts. 180 pts for 3 of those putting out a potential 36W as they charge into melee for 15A each as a threat is decent return. If they don't kill the Immos, they have 2 Exos and possible a Mort kill squad to deal with. Decent options if either of them become true.
I think "C" in the comment above is referencing Celestine, but there's no way she'll be bestowing a 5++ to Immolators - her aura only affects infantry.
Lemondish wrote: I think "C" in the comment above is referencing Celestine, but there's no way she'll be bestowing a 5++ to Immolators - her aura only affects infantry.
I was referring to the BSS squads being 5++ that were carted up by the immos, which now that I reread sounds like the "tankie" i was refering to was the actual Immos. Sorry.
So you actually get sisters mobile up 12" on the Immos move, with C in tow, and when they are dropped off likely on a objective, it didn't take 2 turns of 6" move to get there anymore while you have both the Immos and tanky BSSs to protect her. I and another SoB player typically use rhinos for our Repentia, and not to get BSSs on objectives forcing them to footslog it. But i'd likely do BSSMSUs with the Immos here for obsec in this case and have the Repentia foot it for the counter punch. Celestine has LoS protection by the tanks on the way up and then by the units as well once deployed.
Thats a decent way of getting into place quickly up a board while still having durability and a lot of firepower out of the MMs on the immo. You can both counter punch with good threat output and tank the object once you're on it pretty well. And that is 3 units. Cannoness with IB in with another BSS for a 2nd Immo bomb going to another obj could do the same relative punch there too. That's really not bad for what equates out to ~630 pts of units being able to pop and secure 2 objectives with 8 MMs between them and then dig in decently. The other 1400 points just helps maintain your own backfield objectives (other BSSs w/ Imagifiers), threaten flanks or backfield (Zeph/Seph), or cruise and kill (Mort/Repentia/Exos). And if you need to help resecure, the Zeph/Seph can drop in and help secure more than push if necessary for the primary points.
My main point is I think it just frees up a bit more thought than "hold and secure" that sisters have to do now to really survive if they are VH, or charge out and kill if they are BR. Improving the Immo opens up a bit more strategy on the table simply because we lack long range firepower outside of Exos.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: I happen to think 145 for that output, even HB changes aside, is a good call for a transport. Putting a squad of girls on an obj and having the firepower to kill just about anything on a smaller board that wants to compete for the spot is having to do some choices there. That isn't to say they couldn't have their own MMs doing the same to us, but given that a rhino transport is 78 atm and 4 meltas on a Ret squad is 140 for that firepower right now, we'd be looking at 218 to come close to it. 145 vs 218 looks pretty damn good compared to each other. Its only net positive to us if they actually make that change. And i think it makes the MM worth it. Las has the range and S bonus, and i don't think all armies will take it if they do go H2. Some gun lines that want the Las wouldn't want to get within 24. We have a bit more durability. C behind 2 of those carting up the BSSs makes them pretty durable tanks at 5++ with miracle options and can keep up with their move. Add in the VH and i agree, they are pretty potent.
I'd also be more interested in Mortifiers if HB does to go D2. Assault capable, so they can advance and fire, versions that also want to be in melee doing 6 shots at D2 is fairly nasty for 60 pts. 180 pts for 3 of those putting out a potential 36W as they charge into melee for 15A each as a threat is decent return. If they don't kill the Immos, they have 2 Exos and possible a Mort kill squad to deal with. Decent options if either of them become true.
The D2 Heavy bolter in the spoiled profile was ONE shot.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: I happen to think 145 for that output, even HB changes aside, is a good call for a transport. Putting a squad of girls on an obj and having the firepower to kill just about anything on a smaller board that wants to compete for the spot is having to do some choices there. That isn't to say they couldn't have their own MMs doing the same to us, but given that a rhino transport is 78 atm and 4 meltas on a Ret squad is 140 for that firepower right now, we'd be looking at 218 to come close to it. 145 vs 218 looks pretty damn good compared to each other. Its only net positive to us if they actually make that change. And i think it makes the MM worth it. Las has the range and S bonus, and i don't think all armies will take it if they do go H2. Some gun lines that want the Las wouldn't want to get within 24. We have a bit more durability. C behind 2 of those carting up the BSSs makes them pretty durable tanks at 5++ with miracle options and can keep up with their move. Add in the VH and i agree, they are pretty potent.
I'd also be more interested in Mortifiers if HB does to go D2. Assault capable, so they can advance and fire, versions that also want to be in melee doing 6 shots at D2 is fairly nasty for 60 pts. 180 pts for 3 of those putting out a potential 36W as they charge into melee for 15A each as a threat is decent return. If they don't kill the Immos, they have 2 Exos and possible a Mort kill squad to deal with. Decent options if either of them become true.
The D2 Heavy bolter in the spoiled profile was ONE shot.
Yes, agreed, but Auspex and most of the other spoiler video hosts seem to think that with the change up, there are two options: Making HBs in general D2, which would put them at 15 pts on vehicles for H3 D2, or the short version on the Invictus is special and his a H1 D2 just for it and there is no other HB change. They've made discussions on several vids to both sides, and it seems to be up in the air given the spoilers. They have same name guns with different profiles being spoiled, or same profiles with different names. Seems there are a few issues with the spoilers being inconsistent, likely because of playtesting, hence why it seems debatable about the current state. However, almost all of them agree that 15 pts for HBs on vehicles vs other profiles on similar guns for the stat costs lean them to believe the HB profile in general is due a boost. Most of them are just trying to debate at this point if it will be SM only with the codex release, or the weapon profile across all armies would be updated. Broken if the former, but hard to do with the later since they just did CA MFM without that which could easily have given everyone the new weapon profiles if they were going to.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: I happen to think 145 for that output, even HB changes aside, is a good call for a transport. Putting a squad of girls on an obj and having the firepower to kill just about anything on a smaller board that wants to compete for the spot is having to do some choices there. That isn't to say they couldn't have their own MMs doing the same to us, but given that a rhino transport is 78 atm and 4 meltas on a Ret squad is 140 for that firepower right now, we'd be looking at 218 to come close to it. 145 vs 218 looks pretty damn good compared to each other. Its only net positive to us if they actually make that change. And i think it makes the MM worth it. Las has the range and S bonus, and i don't think all armies will take it if they do go H2. Some gun lines that want the Las wouldn't want to get within 24. We have a bit more durability. C behind 2 of those carting up the BSSs makes them pretty durable tanks at 5++ with miracle options and can keep up with their move. Add in the VH and i agree, they are pretty potent.
I'd also be more interested in Mortifiers if HB does to go D2. Assault capable, so they can advance and fire, versions that also want to be in melee doing 6 shots at D2 is fairly nasty for 60 pts. 180 pts for 3 of those putting out a potential 36W as they charge into melee for 15A each as a threat is decent return. If they don't kill the Immos, they have 2 Exos and possible a Mort kill squad to deal with. Decent options if either of them become true.
The D2 Heavy bolter in the spoiled profile was ONE shot.
It certainly was, though it stands to reason that it may simply be a new profile for the heavy bolter on the Invictor. Definitely a bit of a stretch, but weirder things have happened.
Ultimately 2D with the baseline 3 shots fits so well points wise. The points changes for that weapon start to make sense with that profile.
Incognito15 wrote: Just wondered some opinions. Have a 1500pt game on saturday and am toying between two lists to try. They will both follow the same core.
Canoness -
Missionary
(3x) 5x BSS
6x Repentia
8x Celestians - 2x Melta, Power Maul
8x Celestians - 2x Melta, Power Maul
Exorcist
Option 1: Valorous Heart
5x Ret - 4x HB 5x Ret - 2x MM, AC
3x Rhino
2x Immolater - HB
Option 2: Bloody Rose
9x Zephyrim - Pennant
2x Mortifier
2x Mortifier
2x Rhino
1x Immolator - Flamer
I feel option 1 gives me a better board presence and shooting while option 2 lets me be more aggressive and try to dictate the flow of the game.
Option 2. Heavy bolters are super overpriced and the punch of the Mortifiers and Zephyrim help contest more isolated objectives. Plus, the lack of Imagifier hurts VH more than BR
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.
Totally true, but I'm personally a new collector and a slow painter, so if I get a whiff of something I want to add I need to get started like...now.
So retributors jumped to the top of my list just for funsies. Not like I'll get started until these are official, even if they just apply to Marines at first.
By the time we get our new Codex it’ll be 3 or 4 months til 10th edition. We ALWAYS get out Codex last and always right before the next edition. It’s GW’s idea of a joke for Sisters
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.
Totally true, but I'm personally a new collector and a slow painter, so if I get a whiff of something I want to add I need to get started like...now.
So retributors jumped to the top of my list just for funsies. Not like I'll get started until these are official, even if they just apply to Marines at first.
By the time we get our new Codex it’ll be 3 or 4 months til 10th edition. We ALWAYS get out Codex last and always right before the next edition. It’s GW’s idea of a joke for Sisters
The fact GW intentionally trolls us sister players sucks QQ. I'm still waiting for our own flyer since FW took away our avenger strike fighter at the start of 8th.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: I happen to think 145 for that output, even HB changes aside, is a good call for a transport. Putting a squad of girls on an obj and having the firepower to kill just about anything on a smaller board that wants to compete for the spot is having to do some choices there. That isn't to say they couldn't have their own MMs doing the same to us, but given that a rhino transport is 78 atm and 4 meltas on a Ret squad is 140 for that firepower right now, we'd be looking at 218 to come close to it. 145 vs 218 looks pretty damn good compared to each other. Its only net positive to us if they actually make that change. And i think it makes the MM worth it. Las has the range and S bonus, and i don't think all armies will take it if they do go H2. Some gun lines that want the Las wouldn't want to get within 24. We have a bit more durability. C behind 2 of those carting up the BSSs makes them pretty durable tanks at 5++ with miracle options and can keep up with their move. Add in the VH and i agree, they are pretty potent.
I'd also be more interested in Mortifiers if HB does to go D2. Assault capable, so they can advance and fire, versions that also want to be in melee doing 6 shots at D2 is fairly nasty for 60 pts. 180 pts for 3 of those putting out a potential 36W as they charge into melee for 15A each as a threat is decent return. If they don't kill the Immos, they have 2 Exos and possible a Mort kill squad to deal with. Decent options if either of them become true.
The D2 Heavy bolter in the spoiled profile was ONE shot.
It certainly was, though it stands to reason that it may simply be a new profile for the heavy bolter on the Invictor. Definitely a bit of a stretch, but weirder things have happened.
Ultimately 2D with the baseline 3 shots fits so well points wise. The points changes for that weapon start to make sense with that profile.
Except since you are looking at playing current stats until new codex drops when you get new points anyway it makes no sense to cost weapon with new stats when this point sheet is used only in old stats.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: I happen to think 145 for that output, even HB changes aside, is a good call for a transport. Putting a squad of girls on an obj and having the firepower to kill just about anything on a smaller board that wants to compete for the spot is having to do some choices there. That isn't to say they couldn't have their own MMs doing the same to us, but given that a rhino transport is 78 atm and 4 meltas on a Ret squad is 140 for that firepower right now, we'd be looking at 218 to come close to it. 145 vs 218 looks pretty damn good compared to each other. Its only net positive to us if they actually make that change. And i think it makes the MM worth it. Las has the range and S bonus, and i don't think all armies will take it if they do go H2. Some gun lines that want the Las wouldn't want to get within 24. We have a bit more durability. C behind 2 of those carting up the BSSs makes them pretty durable tanks at 5++ with miracle options and can keep up with their move. Add in the VH and i agree, they are pretty potent.
I'd also be more interested in Mortifiers if HB does to go D2. Assault capable, so they can advance and fire, versions that also want to be in melee doing 6 shots at D2 is fairly nasty for 60 pts. 180 pts for 3 of those putting out a potential 36W as they charge into melee for 15A each as a threat is decent return. If they don't kill the Immos, they have 2 Exos and possible a Mort kill squad to deal with. Decent options if either of them become true.
The D2 Heavy bolter in the spoiled profile was ONE shot.
It certainly was, though it stands to reason that it may simply be a new profile for the heavy bolter on the Invictor. Definitely a bit of a stretch, but weirder things have happened.
Ultimately 2D with the baseline 3 shots fits so well points wise. The points changes for that weapon start to make sense with that profile.
Except since you are looking at playing current stats until new codex drops when you get new points anyway it makes no sense to cost weapon with new stats when this point sheet is used only in old stats.
Points rose as hb's in vehicles got boost in 9th
I agree that it makes no sense to cost a weapon for stats it doesn't have but "vehicles getting a boost in 9th" is a stupid justification for the changes for a number of reasons:
1. Heavy bolters weren't worth 10 before, the bonuses vehicles got made them almost worth their cost and yet they still went up.
2. Heavy flamers went up for vehicles also despite also already being overpriced and getting much less benefit than other vehicle weapons.
3. Lascannons went down, which makes 0 sense because they were already the only commonly taken 'generic' weapon option.
It seems pretty obvious to me that these weapons have been pointed for statlines they don't have yet(or, alternatively, pointed largely randomly).
Except since you are looking at playing current stats until new codex drops when you get new points anyway it makes no sense to cost weapon with new stats when this point sheet is used only in old stats.
Points rose as hb's in vehicles got boost in 9th
While I see and understand your point, and while I don't want to dismiss it out of hand, I think it is important to note just how perfect the change was for things like vehicle mounted heavy bolters provided they hit 2D, and preferably well before a codex release.
After all, you don't actually need to have a codex released in other to change weapon profiles, points, Stratagem costs, etc. They did it all the way through 8th via FAQs.
The comparison I like pointing out for why the rumoured profile seems to work so well is the twin heavy bolter and the heavy onslaught gatling cannon. Both are 30 points on vehicles, but the onslaught trades 6" of range for double the shots.
But at 2D, they are equivalent in expected damage, and they start to look balanced between each other.
So did anyone else notice that deploy scramblers is an almost guaranteed, essentially 0 cost 10 points for any SoB list with 2 units of seraphim?
DISCLAIMER: I HAVEN'T 100% EVERY PERMUTATION OF EVERY RULING FOR THIS INTERACTION SO THERE MIGHT BE SOME RULE THAT STOPS THIS BUT!!!:
Turn 1, use one waste unit in your deployment zone to score your board edge
Turn 2, bring down the seraphim, deadly descent to fry up a nice juicy target, use action to get either midboard or opponent's deployement. (both happen at the end of the movement phase and you get to decide the order.
Turn 3, bring down second unit of seraphim wherever the first unit couldn't go (either middle or opponent's board edge), deadly descent, use action.
Nearly guaranteed 10pts on turn 3 and all you sacrifice is a handful of bolter shots. Even if your opponent actively works to deny you the landing zones, you'll still likely have 12" move infantry models very near where they can jump to do the action next turn. And if all else fails you can get the objective the old fashion way; sneaking a random battle sister into their backlines.
So if you go up against say, a custodes list that doesn't give great secondary options, you can just take this. They don't have enough bodies to deny the midboard, their entire deployment zone, AND contest objectives. You'll always have a place to drop the seraphim and score.
The only fly in the ointment is things like Auspex scan, which Seraphim had to watch out for anyway.
My grades based on a C doing what we expect, F is failing and A is way overpreforming expectations.
Canoness - A+ absolute beatstick (couldnt find anywhere saying she couldnt have 2 relics but hopefully i wasnt illegal)
Missionary - C was a cheaper hq. meh
BSS - C+ is a good troop but not amazing
5x Repentia - C when people know how killy they are they focus that transport down immediately
8x Celestians - A must be in every list. prob is only one proficiency strat a phase.
9x Zephyrim - B really good but man they are expensive for what they do. Could have 8 Celestians and a rhino instead
6x Dominion - B gave me a unit to deal with trouble units from range and grab mid objectives while the Celestians, Zephyrim and Mortifiers pushed
Exorcist - B our best anti tank.
Mortifiers - B would be an A but they die to everything. Love their shootiness and in combat are amazing
Rhino - C does what we expect of it
Immolator - B game me firepower to deal with grav devs that we otherwise lack and mobility with firepower
Honestly was very happy with how everything preformed. Think if i redo I'd drop the repentia and add in a seraphim squad for anti tank.
Hay guise, been a while! How's 9th Edition looking for the Adepta? I hear Sisters still only have one unit (Exorcist) that can fire further than 36", but we have CC Seraphim now or something.
BBAP wrote: Hay guise, been a while! How's 9th Edition looking for the Adepta? I hear Sisters still only have one unit (Exorcist) that can fire further than 36", but we have CC Seraphim now or something.
All accurate, but given 9th rewards mobility on smaller boards, and how terrain impacts los more frequently, the range weakness isn't as pronounced.
