Some comments on Warhammer Community saying the game is a development of existing HH rules (i.e. 7th edition) rather than a complete rehash. That will most certainly lower some blood pressures.
They say they have made some improvements, so it remains to be seen if they end up as Fabius Bile type 'improvements'
Awesome trailer. I hope legion-specific units are done in plastic eventually, because the scale/quality difference between some units is a bit much for me, but excited to see what comes next.
So here's a potential rumour from the animated cinematic. might just be artistic interpretation, but maybe theres a new sicaran model planned for the new range, i.e. new plastic sicaran?
because the one in the trailer has a different turret from what is available on forgeworld:
Porkandbeans wrote: So here's a potential rumour from the animated cinematic. might just be artistic interpretation, but maybe theres a new sicaran model planned for the new range, i.e. new plastic sicaran?
because the one in the trailer has a different turret from what is available on forgeworld:
plus it has a neat spikey plow/ram
According to Macca (who has the prototype/playtest rules) they're "Kratos" tanks, which stat wise are a essentially a land-raider with a battle cannon.
Porkandbeans wrote: ooh, whereabouts can I find info from Macca? is it earlier in this thread?
Latest video on the channel.
Be aware, this is macca after all, so he spends most of the time giving (not unfair) critique of the new praetor, and the fact that the new face/get starting of HH is mk VI, instead of IV or V.
Beakies look excellent and they indeed seem to be in the new increased scale, being the same size than the new CSM (so still slightly smaller than the primaris.) I have no interest in HH, but I kinda want to kitbash the beakies with the CSM. I also hope that any new tanks will be usable in 40K for both Chaos and Imperium.
Yeah he makes good points. And the fact the sicarian aren't sicarian but yet another new pattern made by GW to sell plastic instead of just selling the current patterns of vehicles in plastic is telling me everything I need to now about this new Horus Heresy. They are going to change and "add" lots of new things and people will be happy just because there is "change"
It's primaris all over again...
I'm very curious about the fact the trailer show so many titans. They seem very important. Guess we'll know very soon
godardc wrote: Yeah he makes good points. And the fact the sicarian aren't sicarian but yet another new pattern made by GW to sell plastic instead of just selling the current patterns of vehicles in plastic
I'm very curious about the fact the trailer show so many titans. They seem very important. Guess we'll know very soon
The warcom article says:
In fact, now is the perfect time to get started with The Horus Heresy. While many general kits in the range will be moving to plastic, there aren’t currently any such plans for the Legion-specific units or Primarchs
My guess would be assault marines, support squads (+ heavies), and vehicles. Maybe bikes. No reason to assume we won't see the sicaran as well.
Titans, probably heavily included for two reasons - artistic (for scale), and cross-marketing with Titanicus. Plus they're cool.
So, if you haven’t yet picked a side, you could do worse than collecting your chosen Primarch or other mighty hero in anticipation of a plastic Legion for them to lead.
I like the Praetor as he can easily be changed to any legion with a different paint scheme. I'd think about doing Iron Warriors myself, maybe swap the axe for a hammer, but leaving the axe and making him an assault captain verging on going all Khornate is a thought too. I'd change the back banner as well, but could swap skulls for alien skulls or helmets. It all comes down to price.
Coming back on this again, just looked it up - the Kratos appeared in Book 8, so it's existed on paper since 2019. They were probably already at work on the kit then. I didn't recognise the name previously as that's the one black book I've not got.
godardc wrote: I'm very curious about the fact the trailer show so many titans. They seem very important. Guess we'll know very soon
They do have an entire game, with it's own model range, devoted to Knights, that also has Titan's thrown in. Seriously though, could just be an opportunity to cross sell Adeptus Titanicus.
In all seriousness, if this guy has a good set of options
(which the ad copy implies)
Does the article imply that? It says the new armor mark kit will be flexible, but I'd expect the plastic Praetor to be like the old Space Marine Heroes kit. Plus, from his pose, any other weapons will look awkward.
In all seriousness, if this guy has a good set of options
(which the ad copy implies)
Does the article imply that? It says the new armor mark kit will be flexible, but I'd expect the plastic Praetor to be like the old Space Marine Heroes kit. Plus, from his pose, any other weapons will look awkward.
He could easily have an alternate head, alternate backpack trophy rack and different 2 handed weapons (Thunderhammer, Chainglaive, Custodian style spear) or even convert him to a banner bearer with a standard. Sure not a great pose for gun or sword and board.
Bummer that the legion specific units/characters will stay resin only but I guess it was to be expected.
That video was incredible, I wish thats what Warhammer+ content looked like - if it did I would be able to retire young from the obscene value my GW stock holdings would have lol.er that the legion specifi
In all seriousness, if this guy has a good set of options
(which the ad copy implies)
Does the article imply that? It says the new armor mark kit will be flexible, but I'd expect the plastic Praetor to be like the old Space Marine Heroes kit. Plus, from his pose, any other weapons will look awkward.
He could easily have an alternate head, alternate backpack trophy rack and different 2 handed weapons (Thunderhammer, Chainglaive, Custodian style spear) or even convert him to a banner bearer with a standard. Sure not a great pose for gun or sword and board.[/quote
Its all but confirmed the praetor at least has a helmet option. In the trailer, we see him wearing a helmet with a little halo on top. (1:17 in the video).
Coming back on this again, just looked it up - the Kratos appeared in Book 8, so it's existed on paper since 2019. They were probably already at work on the kit then. I didn't recognise the name previously as that's the one black book I've not got.
It has two mentions in the fluff, under The Battle for Signus Prime:
p.58 wrote:As the slower elements finally reached the front of the advance, squadrons of obsolete Kratos battle tanks from the Red Tear's reserve armouries joined the fray. Previously retired in favour of faster, more multi-purpose vehicles such as the ubiquitous Predator, the Kratos served as a dedicated infantry support tank and its heavy cannon quickly opened a path for the infantry to follow. Between the righteous fury of the Erelim and supporting infantry echelons, and the devastation wrought by the canister shells of the Kratos, the vanguard began to advance once more.
p.72 wrote:Of all of the squadrons sent into the hell that had been the Battle for Signus Prime, the ones that had fared best had been the obsolete Kratos support tanks, whose heavy armour and close support weapons had enabled them to survive in the melee, while faster, more specialised vehicles had been isolated and tom apart.
If this is how GW are keeping the Firstborn marine range alive and in plastic, then I'm cool with anything they're planning. It'll be interesting to see if this means things like a plastic Deimos Rhino kit that actually replaces the current model, and so on. It would create a pretty clear distinction between modern Primaris and Firstborn marines, while the scale increase will mean mixing and matching also doesn't look completely out of place the way it currently does.
Dread Master wrote: Beakies look to be half a head taller than current Mk IV’s
There's been a bit of scale-creep recently - plastic MK3 v. recent SoH Praetor (from Reddit):
Spoiler:
That reddit made SoH Praetor looks super cool btw
It's not reddit made, its the SoH Praetor that got released a few months ago. I believe the redditor ordered Maloghurst and somehow the SoH Praetor was sent by mistake. So he was the first person to get it (it wasn't even revealed at the time lol)
Dread Master wrote: Beakies look to be half a head taller than current Mk IV’s
There's been a bit of scale-creep recently - plastic MK3 v. recent SoH Praetor (from Reddit):
Spoiler:
That reddit made SoH Praetor looks super cool btw
It's not reddit made, its the SoH Praetor that got released a few months ago. I believe the redditor ordered Maloghurst and somehow the SoH Praetor was sent by mistake. So he was the first person to get it (it wasn't even revealed at the time lol)
Mk VI plastic kit has been one of the most requested Space Marine kits for decades. Mk III and Mk IV kits have already existed for a long time. After Mk VI kit gets released, the next logical plastic kit will be Mk V, followed by Mk II. Then all the armour marks of HH will have plastic kits, after which, assuming demand exists, Mk IV & Mk III kits can be resculpted to the new proportions/scale. Most of the legion specific resin bits are made to the old proportions/scale, so if the legion specific kits will remain in resin for now, it is only logical that the plastic kits which are compatible with those legion kits (Mk III & Mk IV), will be the very last plastic kits to get a resculpt. And then GW is finally in a position where they can redo legion specific kits in plastic. Any other order of doing this would be frankly beyond stupidity.
Mk VI kit is the only one of the three remaining plastic armour mark specific kits with mass 40K appeal (for loyalists anyway). It will make GW a boatload of money. That money will help fund more HH content and enable much more niche things for the future.
Ok, lets then think about the Kratos tank. It's a Sicaran with a Deimos Predator turret, right? Well, considering how modern GW vehicle plastic kits are made, it is pretty obvious that a single Sicaran kit will be produced which will have multiple build options, so it can be built into all the sicaran variants from a single SKU. This is logistically much more reasonable than having separate SKUs for every tank variant out there.
I know whinging on Youtube is a profitable business nowadays (this guy has monetized his channel, right?), but this is just overly dramatic bs what he spewing.
Well if this kit is supposed to be all of these...
Praetors are mighty warriors and can represent Lord Commanders, Jarls, Khans, and more, depending on your Legion. As with the Tactical Marine, the Praetor is Legion-agnostic, meaning you can easily use them in your favourite Legion – simply paint them as you want, and you’re good to go.
...you'd expect a few heads/helmets and good mix of weapons.
But then again hope is the beginning of unhappiness...
Maybe they all like topknots and absurdly large axes.
I would have preferred a more normal voice than Growly McGrowl, though. I feel it detracts from the speech.
It's the voice I would expect from a psychopath like that. The facial expressions were ace.
Yea, at this point Horus is pretty much enthralled by Chaos, so I could see a more "evil" style voice. Still, I think it would be interesting juxtaposition to give him a smooth, charismatic voice like a great orator, which I imagine him having prior to his fall.
The fact there are people complaining about plastic Beakies is a bit staggering to me. I've always known the OuterCircle to produce well ... junk content frankly (I've no issue with complaining about, or even hating Games Workshop), but this kind of thing just takes the cake to be honest.
blood reaper wrote: The fact there are people complaining about plastic Beakies is a bit staggering to me. I've always known the OuterCircle to produce well ... junk content frankly (I've no issue with complaining about, or even hating Games Workshop), but this kind of thing just takes the cake to be honest.
You seem more concerned with the outer circles take than praising the awesome new previews... maybe he's making some good points that resonate. I just watched video, seems to be pretty much on the money.
tauist wrote: I'm 100% sure the NuBeakies are in the modern CSM scale. This was already confirmed by Mr Ecles @ Adepticon QA earlier today (according to /r 30k)
And, I think, all of those are significantly bulkier than the HH resins from FW. The resin infantry are going to look not great. I won't be replacing my collection though (though I am sure the new stuff will look ace).
On the scale issue, thinking back it was quite obvious for many years that eventually GW were going to do a scale shift and upsize them, as not only had it happened to other ranges but the original scale was starting to look pitifully small compared to other races in the game and didn't line up with the background material.
I'm sure most of us would have bought the new scale anyway, but some bright spark had the idea of 'Primaris' and moving the timeline forward, write some new rules, and make it an imperative that everyone buy marines again in the new scale.
This for me just shows that; the new larger scale and better plastic sprue production lets the sculptors do so much more (and does look better) I don't think you were ever going to get tiny 90s or 00s scale marines coming along any more.
blood reaper wrote:The fact there are people complaining about plastic Beakies is a bit staggering to me. I've always known the OuterCircle to produce well ... junk content frankly (I've no issue with complaining about, or even hating Games Workshop), but this kind of thing just takes the cake to be honest.
For many of us the 'Beakie' is the definitive Space Marine armour design. It was the one made at the beginning and all of the artwork for the first few years of 40k, and so has a special place in the hearts of those who remember those times.
I would have preferred a more normal voice than Growly McGrowl, though. I feel it detracts from the speech.
It's the voice I would expect from a psychopath like that. The facial expressions were ace.
Yea, at this point Horus is pretty much enthralled by Chaos, so I could see a more "evil" style voice. Still, I think it would be interesting juxtaposition to give him a smooth, charismatic voice like a great orator, which I imagine him having prior to his fall.
Now imagining that video where Horus has the voice of Roger Moore
I felt the weakest part was the facial animation/design, the audio def feels a bit christian bale but its more the delivery and pacing so the vo sorta had to serve that more. I thought it was abaddon at one point. The titan/tank stuff was great.
Crablezworth wrote: You seem more concerned with the outer circles take than praising the awesome new previews... maybe he's making some good points that resonate. I just watched video, seems to be pretty much on the money.
A minute into his video, he already comes across as the kind of person that loves the smell of their own farts. Like literally 1.3 minutes into the video he's monologuing about his personality like anyone cares who he is.
His first point is that the community defends gak models. Supported by the evidence that, "people can't state why a model is great, but they come up all these reasons why it's not so gak. When you have to start justifying why a model is good, that should be in my mind the warning sign that it's not." Which is a terrible argument for a number of reasons, particularly because he uses the point to bridge in to attack the background for the models and not the models themselves.
He then projects his feelings about the new models being 40k style onto the situation.
I gave up at this point because this whole video might as well be, "One man states unsupported opinions for clickbait clicks on youtube."
Crablezworth wrote: You seem more concerned with the outer circles take than praising the awesome new previews... maybe he's making some good points that resonate. I just watched video, seems to be pretty much on the money.
A minute into his video, he already comes across as the kind of person that loves the smell of their own farts. Like literally 1.3 minutes into the video he's monologuing about his personality like anyone cares who he is.
His first point is that the community defends gak models. Supported by the evidence that, "people can't state why a model is great, but they come up all these reasons why it's not so gak. When you have to start justifying why a model is good, that should be in my mind the warning sign that it's not." Which is a terrible argument for a number of reasons, particularly because he uses the point to bridge in to attack the background for the models and not the models themselves.
He then projects his feelings about the new models being 40k style onto the situation.
I gave up at this point because this whole video might as well be, "One man states unsupported opinions for clickbait clicks on youtube."
I agreed with a lot of his points (to one degree or another), disagreed with a lot too. I agree though he did sound quite douchey at the start - he's literally calling me a simp and a cretin for liking different stuff to him. Like yeah I get it, I think some of the praise for a lot of GW stuff is far too fulsome sometimes, and I disagree with people about what they think is good in all sorts of stuff, whether miniature aesthetics, fluff, whatever, but I generally don't tend to think of those who disagree with me as some type of subspecies of swamp people
I agreed with a lot of his points (to one degree or another), disagreed with a lot too. I agree though he did sound quite douchey at the start - he's literally calling me a simp and a cretin for liking different stuff to him. Like yeah I get it, I think some of the praise for a lot of GW stuff is far too fulsome sometimes, and I disagree with people about what they think is good in all sorts of stuff, whether miniature aesthetics, fluff, whatever, but I generally don't tend to think of those who disagree with me as some type of subspecies of swamp people
He's producing clickbait. The same people who rail on spikeybits for being garbage should feel the same way about this guy. He's being intentionally inflammatory so that people react and watch his content. I made that mistake today and will never again.
And what's even more laughable is that I'd bet most people who get on their soapboxes about how much of a travesty this is, will just buy the boxes anyways.
Well he does preface it that this was his what third attempt and he was trying to take that sorta language out of it, totally fair that he's not for everyone. The better points are later in the video and in fairness its not a short video.
I think with plastic, people see in potential, esp on the beakie side because there's a lot of customization and conversion potential. The praetor is more controversial IMO. A general critique of gw design when it comes to characters/monopose is they tend to put too much stuff/bits. The praetor has a lot going on, chainmail, it also looks a bit chunky or off in the way the gravis armour did.
I agreed with a lot of his points (to one degree or another), disagreed with a lot too. I agree though he did sound quite douchey at the start - he's literally calling me a simp and a cretin for liking different stuff to him. Like yeah I get it, I think some of the praise for a lot of GW stuff is far too fulsome sometimes, and I disagree with people about what they think is good in all sorts of stuff, whether miniature aesthetics, fluff, whatever, but I generally don't tend to think of those who disagree with me as some type of subspecies of swamp people
He's producing clickbait. The same people who rail on spikeybits for being garbage should feel the same way about this guy. He's being intentionally inflammatory so that people react and watch his content. I made that mistake today and will never again.
And what's even more laughable is that I'd bet most people who get on their soapboxes about how much of a travesty this is, will just buy the boxes anyways.
I think it's fair to say salt is part of the deal but there's also plenty of content that doesn't really fit the clickbait/flamebait bill. And a lot of his analysis tends to be ok. His video on the sun killer rule was good.
That's not legit though - "Hey James, I really wanted to call you a stinking dirty gross looking scumbag. I really did. But I won't do that. That's not what I'm going to do, I will refrain". But yes I agreed with a number of the criticisms, to some extent.
That praetor is fantastic, but I do hope the kit has some options -- I would personally de-bling him a lot (those dangling stars off his pauldrons, for starters).
If I could just build him without cape and dangly stars, I'd be ecstatic. Probably buy a few.
I dont like the Praetor they showed off, it seems idk too AoS to me. I do like the one we havent seen in non-blurry pictures from the original leak of the box set thats opposite of the one they showed off.
Quasistellar wrote: That praetor is fantastic, but I do hope the kit has some options -- I would personally de-bling him a lot (those dangling stars off his pauldrons, for starters).
If I could just build him without cape and dangly stars, I'd be ecstatic. Probably buy a few.
Ya I hope it's got some options or can at least be built with less bling.
I like the trailer a lot. The narration didn't sound good last night but it has grown on me, initially I thought a more cultured or sombre voice would have been better as is found in some of the audiobooks but actually I like the anger it seems appropriate. The art style could be better but it's still good. Only objectively bad thing about I think it is the janky movements on some of the marines, looks quite unrealistic in places.
JWBS wrote: I like the trailer a lot. The narration didn't sound good last night but it has grown on me, initially I thought a more cultured or sombre voice would have been better as is found in some of the audiobooks but actually I like the anger it seems appropriate. The art style could be better but it's still good. Only objectively bad thing about I think it is the janky movements on some of the marines, looks quite unrealistic in places.
I liked the sculpts and the lighting, but material finishes and animation felt rushed. They should have used motion capture for the animations, captured animation looks so much more realistic.
If we're gonna complain about Heresy era Marks, I'd say the main thing to lament is the lack of MK II. It's barely even available from Forgeworld anymore. And those resin legs are way to thin to fit well beside the newer plastic kits.
And that's a mark that should be fairly well represented even as late as the heresy, despite it's having been phased out for a while in the crusade forces.
The mk VI was barely out of testing when the Heresy started.
its only there because they are in the new box and look different enough from the MKIV redux that the primaris are, yeah its a minor irk but I do not care enough for it to matter.
so long as I can change the arms and head I can make my MKV World Eaters I will be happy
RazorEdge wrote: I fear they could retcon HH to make the MkVI stardard through the Heresy.
For god's sake stop overreacting. The Alpha Legion and Raven Guard had access to a lot of MkVI before the Heresy broke out and the Mechanicum, both Loyalist and Traitor, had already begun mass-producing it to supplement the Legions prior to Horus's revolt. You have to remember the Heresy wasn't some quick conflict, it lasted almost a decade, and it's already canon that by the Siege of Terra MkVI was the most common armour present in the Legions. Hell, when the Imperial Fists got involved with the Martian Schism it was Sigismund's final order to evacuate as much arms and armour as possible for the Loyalist cause before retreating. Both sides were also in no way adverse to stripping their fallen enemies of everything they could to both prevent its use and as small acts of vengeance.
The MkIV and III kits are still in production and FW is still selling its resin variants of the armour marks. Stop being paranoid.
tauist wrote: I'm 100% sure the NuBeakies are in the modern CSM scale. This was already confirmed by Mr Ecles @ Adepticon QA earlier today (according to /r 30k)
This Photoshop is super wrong. MkIII is taller and bulkier than MkIV. Here is a real photo I took a while ago:
I expect the HH MkVI models to be at the same size as Space Marine Heroes Series 1 or the current Chaos Space Marine models:
Ahtman wrote: The trailer was really nice but honestly I really only care about what the starter box is going to have/cost. That is what I want to see.
30 mark VI marines
5 Terminators
2 Praetors
Contemptor Dreadnought
Kratos tank
At least, that's roughly what's in the leaked pictures.
Sons of Horus have a praetor, ~20 marines and the Contemptor, Imperial Fists have 10 marines, terminators, a praetor and the tank. (And the trailer reinforces Sons vs Fists, so the leak is even more likely to be this box, if there were doubts left)
Which makes not showing it off rather pointless.
Also likely a rulebook and dice.
Costs... probably a lot. I'd ballpark it at somewhere around $225-240 (US), most likely
Ahtman wrote: The trailer was really nice but honestly I really only care about what the starter box is going to have/cost. That is what I want to see.
30 mark VI marines
5 Terminators
2 Praetors
Contemptor Dreadnought
Kratos tank
At least, that's roughly what's in the leaked pictures.
Sons of Horus have a praetor, ~20 marines and the Contemptor, Imperial Fists have 10 marines, terminators, a praetor and the tank. (And the trailer reinforces Sons vs Fists, so the leak is even more likely to be this box, if there were doubts left)
Which makes not showing it off rather pointless.
Also likely a rulebook and dice.
Costs... probably a lot. I'd ballpark it at somewhere around $225-240 (US), most likely
It's 30 marines and 5-10 terminators (looks to be at least 8 visible in the leaked pics), plus the vehicles & characters.
I never noticed this before but it looks like the 32mm bases (with the exception of the space marine heroes one) are actually taller than the 25mm bases. I'm going to have to find my calipers and check that.
Ahtman wrote: The trailer was really nice but honestly I really only care about what the starter box is going to have/cost. That is what I want to see.
30 mark VI marines
5 Terminators
2 Praetors
Contemptor Dreadnought
Kratos tank
At least, that's roughly what's in the leaked pictures.
Sons of Horus have a praetor, ~20 marines and the Contemptor, Imperial Fists have 10 marines, terminators, a praetor and the tank. (And the trailer reinforces Sons vs Fists, so the leak is even more likely to be this box, if there were doubts left)
Which makes not showing it off rather pointless.
Also likely a rulebook and dice.
Costs... probably a lot. I'd ballpark it at somewhere around $225-240 (US), most likely
It's 30 marines and 5-10 terminators (looks to be at least 8 visible in the leaked pics), plus the vehicles & characters.
I thought the photos were pretty clear that it was a Spartan Assault Tank? I just re-checked, unless the Kratos is built on a Spartan chassis, its definitely a Spartan, as it has the Spartans signature dual quad lascannnon sponsons + assault ramp + the central twin heavy bolter "bunker". We can't see the back half of it really, so its possible theres a deimos turret with a big gun up there, but I very much doubt it.
Also 40 power armor marines, not 30. Theres 30 Sons of Horus marines in the image, another 10 in IF colors.
chaos0xomega wrote: I never noticed this before but it looks like the 32mm bases (with the exception of the space marine heroes one) are actually taller than the 25mm bases. I'm going to have to find my calipers and check that.
Yes they are. Though they're the same height than most other GW's bases, it is actually the 25mm bases that are anomalously low.
MKV is the one true Mark. MKVI is a close second, though. Mk 2-4 are trash.
Also, whoever designed that Praetor's axe has quite obviously never actually used an axe, pick, sledge hammer, or other such implement. One hand stays fixed on the bottom, but the other needs to be able to slide along the shaft's length.
Bob Lorgar wrote: MKV is the one true Mark. MKVI is a close second, though. Mk 2-4 are trash.
Also, whoever designed that Praetor's axe has quite obviously never actually used an axe, pick, sledge hammer, or other such implement. One hand stays fixed on the bottom, but the other needs to be able to slide along the shaft's length.
Keep in mind it's not a regular axe that requires a lot of your own strength though.
Bob Lorgar wrote: MKV is the one true Mark. MKVI is a close second, though. Mk 2-4 are trash.
Never have I heard a wronger opinion. MKV is quite literally trash. The scrap and broken bits that should be smelted down but are instead reforged into something workable.*
All hail glorious MkII.
*Obvious disclaimer that I am in fact joking. Not that it should be necessary, but some people are entirely humourless and wouldn't know a joke if WC Fields himself come up and honked there nose. Not that i'm implying Bob Lorgar is the aforementioned person. Just that there's plenty out there. Have I milked this bit for all its worth? I hope so. Still waiting for someone to get cut at it though.... MkV is trash though. But good looking trash. This line is here just so I could get down to size 1 text.
RazorEdge wrote: I fear they could retcon HH to make the MkVI stardard through the Heresy.
For god's sake stop overreacting. The Alpha Legion and Raven Guard had access to a lot of MkVI before the Heresy broke out and the Mechanicum, both Loyalist and Traitor, had already begun mass-producing it to supplement the Legions prior to Horus's revolt. You have to remember the Heresy wasn't some quick conflict, it lasted almost a decade, and it's already canon that by the Siege of Terra MkVI was the most common armour present in the Legions. Hell, when the Imperial Fists got involved with the Martian Schism it was Sigismund's final order to evacuate as much arms and armour as possible for the Loyalist cause before retreating. Both sides were also in no way adverse to stripping their fallen enemies of everything they could to both prevent its use and as small acts of vengeance.
The MkIV and III kits are still in production and FW is still selling its resin variants of the armour marks. Stop being paranoid.
And even VII was used in the end. VI isn't super rare especially for later half of heresy.
RazorEdge wrote: I fear they could retcon HH to make the MkVI stardard through the Heresy.
For god's sake stop overreacting. The Alpha Legion and Raven Guard had access to a lot of MkVI before the Heresy broke out and the Mechanicum, both Loyalist and Traitor, had already begun mass-producing it to supplement the Legions prior to Horus's revolt. You have to remember the Heresy wasn't some quick conflict, it lasted almost a decade, and it's already canon that by the Siege of Terra MkVI was the most common armour present in the Legions. Hell, when the Imperial Fists got involved with the Martian Schism it was Sigismund's final order to evacuate as much arms and armour as possible for the Loyalist cause before retreating. Both sides were also in no way adverse to stripping their fallen enemies of everything they could to both prevent its use and as small acts of vengeance.
The MkIV and III kits are still in production and FW is still selling its resin variants of the armour marks. Stop being paranoid.
I don't think being upset that the most under-used armor type becoming the poster boy armor in a game that is treated by a large portion of the community as a "historical" system is over-reacting. Pretty much everything you describe in your statement is true, yet this armor was still not seen in great numbers outside the RG, AL, and WS until or just before SIEGE OF TERRA, which is almost being treated as a separate IP at this point.
That aside, the Heresy was about a decade long, and at the beginning, the Legions were just finished getting equipped with shiny new MKIV armor. A few years in, these freshly stocked Legions were savaged beyond belief, and their somewhat plentiful MKIV armor was starting to dwindle. What did the Legions do? Start making chimeric suits, or producing a standardized "salvaged" suit of power armor which became known as MKV. -AND/OR- They opened up their hidden stores and old armories and distributed thousands of mothballed suits of less advanced but more simply maintained armor which was in its entirety made up of MKII CRUSADE ARMOR. The armor that once protected every single Space Marine during the Crusade, the most mass produced suit ever developed.
And you can't even purchase it. Like I'm ok with plastic MKVI existing, but it should not be the poster boy armor. If people want generic "one size fits all" approach to their Warhammer game they'll play 40K. Which is fine, but a massive portion of HH players got into the game because they had such subtle choices in personalizing their chosen Legion to the best of their ability to represent the lore accurately. GW should really have made MKII, or at least MKV with this boxset.
But yeah, Heresy vets have a right to be upset with this.
Like what are Salamander players gonna do with MKVI? The Salamanders were one of 3 Legions given MKVI to field test, and they HATED it, it didn't meld with their tactics at all, and while being an advanced suit, they preferred the use of heavier older marks that complimented their close range tactics. OH well you can buy MKIII and MKIV! And fight your buddies army with his upscaled marines that are all a whole head or more taller.
aracersss wrote: what are the odds the new mkvi kit has both torso and legs merged like the rest of new kits?
Hard to say. Modern CSM & Deathwatch still have separate torsos and legs AFAIK? I would love them to be separate still (might be compatible with my existing chest piece collection), but hard to say either way.
Worst option would be a separate chestpiece and legs, but done in a way which makes mixing and matching said pieces require conversion.
tauist wrote: I'm 100% sure the NuBeakies are in the modern CSM scale. This was already confirmed by Mr Ecles @ Adepticon QA earlier today (according to /r 30k)
This Photoshop is super wrong. MkIII is taller and bulkier than MkIV. Here is a real photo I took a while ago:
I expect the HH MkVI models to be at the same size as Space Marine Heroes Series 1 or the current Chaos Space Marine models:
I was merely reposting an image from Reddit. I did not claim it to be 100% correct. Looking forward to seeing your scale comparison!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Lotta people like the HH, and like the Primarchs being more than a man.
And the first "hack-job BL guy" was Dan Abnett. You think he's a hack?
He clearly ruined the entire Horus Heresy thing.
Some of his other stuff is decent though. But his take on Horus and the Legions (also his idiotic retcon of Ultramarines, Space Wolves, etc.. in later HH books) is an atrocity that destroyed the entire 30K setting.
RazorEdge wrote: I fear they could retcon HH to make the MkVI stardard through the Heresy.
For god's sake stop overreacting. The Alpha Legion and Raven Guard had access to a lot of MkVI before the Heresy broke out and the Mechanicum, both Loyalist and Traitor, had already begun mass-producing it to supplement the Legions prior to Horus's revolt. You have to remember the Heresy wasn't some quick conflict, it lasted almost a decade, and it's already canon that by the Siege of Terra MkVI was the most common armour present in the Legions. Hell, when the Imperial Fists got involved with the Martian Schism it was Sigismund's final order to evacuate as much arms and armour as possible for the Loyalist cause before retreating. Both sides were also in no way adverse to stripping their fallen enemies of everything they could to both prevent its use and as small acts of vengeance.
The MkIV and III kits are still in production and FW is still selling its resin variants of the armour marks. Stop being paranoid.
I don't think being upset that the most under-used armor type becoming the poster boy armor in a game that is treated by a large portion of the community as a "historical" system is over-reacting. Pretty much everything you describe in your statement is true, yet this armor was still not seen in great numbers outside the RG, AL, and WS until or just before SIEGE OF TERRA, which is almost being treated as a separate IP at this point.
That aside, the Heresy was about a decade long, and at the beginning, the Legions were just finished getting equipped with shiny new MKIV armor. A few years in, these freshly stocked Legions were savaged beyond belief, and their somewhat plentiful MKIV armor was starting to dwindle. What did the Legions do? Start making chimeric suits, or producing a standardized "salvaged" suit of power armor which became known as MKV. -AND/OR- They opened up their hidden stores and old armories and distributed thousands of mothballed suits of less advanced but more simply maintained armor which was in its entirety made up of MKII CRUSADE ARMOR. The armor that once protected every single Space Marine during the Crusade, the most mass produced suit ever developed.
And you can't even purchase it. Like I'm ok with plastic MKVI existing, but it should not be the poster boy armor. If people want generic "one size fits all" approach to their Warhammer game they'll play 40K. Which is fine, but a massive portion of HH players got into the game because they had such subtle choices in personalizing their chosen Legion to the best of their ability to represent the lore accurately. GW should really have made MKII, or at least MKV with this boxset.
But yeah, Heresy vets have a right to be upset with this.
Like what are Salamander players gonna do with MKVI? The Salamanders were one of 3 Legions given MKVI to field test, and they HATED it, it didn't meld with their tactics at all, and while being an advanced suit, they preferred the use of heavier older marks that complimented their close range tactics. OH well you can buy MKIII and MKIV! And fight your buddies army with his upscaled marines that are all a whole head or more taller.
Different armour Marks didn't even exist in the original Heresy pre-BL.
All you describe above is post-retcon anyway and pointless drivel of no concern to genuine Horus Heresy fans.
The first 'true' Heresy mark armour was Mk6 - all of the marines in the original Space Marine Epic boxset (which was set during the Heresy) are wearing it, its in all of the artwork in the rulebook etc.
Subsequently GW released mk7 for 2nd edition 40k onwards (I think it was introduced in Titan Legions for Epic, as 2nd edition Epic Space Marine were still beakies IIRC). You then had a kind of ret-con of earlier marks of armour being created - I'm not sure when those first appeared, was it some of the Index Astartes books/articles where you had Death Guard and whatnot in their original legion colours?
Then the modern Heresy series introduced Mk6 as being in production by the end of the Heresy series, which neatly ties up with that original Epic release and explains how the marines in it were beakies - and this has now been followed by the HH 2.0 release.
Pacific wrote: The first 'true' Heresy mark armour was Mk6 - all of the marines in the original Space Marine Epic boxset (which was set during the Heresy) are wearing it, its in all of the artwork in the rulebook etc.
Subsequently GW released mk7 for 2nd edition 40k onwards (I think it was introduced in Titan Legions for Epic, as 2nd edition Epic Space Marine were still beakies IIRC). You then had a kind of ret-con of earlier marks of armour being created - I'm not sure when those first appeared, was it some of the Index Astartes books/articles where you had Death Guard and whatnot in their original legion colours?
Then the modern Heresy series introduced Mk6 as being in production by the end of the Heresy series, which neatly ties up with that original Epic release and explains how the marines in it were beakies - and this has now been followed by the HH 2.0 release.
They appeared originally in a WD article IIRC, during the 40k 2nd edition/WFB 5th edition era.
kirotheavenger wrote: Out of curiosity, what did Abnett change about Ultramarines in later HH books? I've only read the early ones.
Well, it's retconned the fluff where in 745.M41 the Emperor awarded the Ultramarines the planet of Macragge and gave them full Adeptus Astartes status in reward for them defeating Hive-Fleet Behemoth in the Last Tyrannic war!
They said on the stream that all the generic Legion units would be plastic and it would only be specialist stuff that would remain FW. Might mean a new Sicaran, I would be surprised if there was no Deimos considering SoB already have one.
Gert wrote: They said on the stream that all the generic Legion units would be plastic and it would only be specialist stuff that would remain FW. Might mean a new Sicaran, I would be surprised if there was no Deimos considering SoB already have one.
I wonder if they'll do resin conversion kits for the specialist Sicarans or switch it all to plastic
kirotheavenger wrote: Out of curiosity, what did Abnett change about Ultramarines in later HH books? I've only read the early ones.
Well, it's retconned the fluff where in 745.M41 the Emperor awarded the Ultramarines the planet of Macragge and gave them full Adeptus Astartes status in reward for them defeating Hive-Fleet Behemoth in the Last Tyrannic war!
I don't think it was Abnett that retconned that, if that was ever the case.
I remember reading about the Tyrannic War in 5th edition and Macragge was the Ultra's fortress monastery.
Crablezworth wrote: Really hoping they're not yeeting the sicaran for the new tank, also hoping this is because we'll see a new plastic rhino.
I predict a dual turret option in a plastic Sicaran kit to provide a classic existing one, and a new one therefore driving sales even amongst established players/collectors.
But yeah, Heresy vets have a right to be upset with this.
No we don't. Its just a fething game with a made up history that can and will be changed as often as it suits the needs of the writers. Get over yourself already.
kirotheavenger wrote: Out of curiosity, what did Abnett change about Ultramarines in later HH books? I've only read the early ones.
Well, it's retconned the fluff where in 745.M41 the Emperor awarded the Ultramarines the planet of Macragge and gave them full Adeptus Astartes status in reward for them defeating Hive-Fleet Behemoth in the Last Tyrannic war!
I don't think it was Abnett that retconned that, if that was ever the case.
I remember reading about the Tyrannic War in 5th edition and Macragge was the Ultra's fortress monastery.
Pretty sure it is a reference to material regarding the Ultramarines during the RT era.
Pacific wrote: The first 'true' Heresy mark armour was Mk6 - all of the marines in the original Space Marine Epic boxset (which was set during the Heresy) are wearing it, its in all of the artwork in the rulebook etc.
Subsequently GW released mk7 for 2nd edition 40k onwards (I think it was introduced in Titan Legions for Epic, as 2nd edition Epic Space Marine were still beakies IIRC). You then had a kind of ret-con of earlier marks of armour being created - I'm not sure when those first appeared, was it some of the Index Astartes books/articles where you had Death Guard and whatnot in their original legion colours?
Then the modern Heresy series introduced Mk6 as being in production by the end of the Heresy series, which neatly ties up with that original Epic release and explains how the marines in it were beakies - and this has now been followed by the HH 2.0 release.
They appeared originally in a WD article IIRC, during the 40k 2nd edition/WFB 5th edition era.
This isn't *quite* accurate. The idea of different armour marks was introduced in an article by Rick Priestley in WD129 from December 1990 – so pretty much bang in the middle of 1st edition. This also coincided with the release of the Space Marine Strike Force box set, which contained the original MkVII models – the ones with metal bodies and plastic arms/bolters/backpacks. Most of the general characteristics of the various marks, and where they fit into the chronology of the Great Crusade/Heresy are established in this article and there've only been fairly minor tweaks to this since (e.g. they did away with the idea of MkII and III suits having the helmet fixed in place, with the wearer's head moving about *inside*, presumably on the basis that 1. it made for less dynamic models and 2. it was silly). I *think* the article in question was reproduced in the Warhammer 40,000 Compilation (the yellow book with Dave Gallagher's Blood Angels vs Genestealers painting on the front) but my memory's a bit fuzzy on that front.
Ok, it's pretty clear from these LCTB announcements which kits will be going to plastic in the first wave of HH 2.0. I'm pretty sure the Sicaran will be a combo kit with Kratos build option onboard, and that we will be seeing a plastic Deimos Rhino soon. None of the Deimos Rhino doors are LCTB so this is pretty much a given. Glad I held off buying a Deimos as I hate resin/plastic hybrid kits; they have all the downsides of both kit types, I've heard horror stories about resin sides not fitting plastic floorings etc.
Grabbed a Contemptor since I've been planning to get one for a long time and I'm not sure I'll like the plastic version as much as the resin one. The resin Contemptors will be doubling in price immediately when it goes OOP so I just want to make sure I'm covering all my bases. If the plastic Contemptor remake meets my expectations, I can always sell the resin kit to collectors later.
I have one more point to make to HH vets lamenting over the Mk VI armour mark choice. This new starter is thematically taking place during the siege of Terra. I think the Mk VI fits this period in HH better than almost any other.
Marine armour marks never made any sense to begin with. Almost all the marks were developed in the Crusade/HH era, and then remained unchanged for ten millennia, and only mark VIII was developed during that time. It is completely absurd and unbelievable.
But of course! The Catapractii termies coming in the HH 2.0 box are new sculpts, and will most likely be available as a separate kit later, making the existing Catapractii kit obsolete. GW wants to dump the old stock in time for the new kit.
At this point, the miniature contents of HH 2.0 box is pretty much confirmed (the actual amount of minis is yet to be confirmed however). First supplementary kits to follow the box will be Sicarius, Deimos Rhino/Predator, Leviathan dread..
Crimson wrote: Marine armour marks never made any sense to begin with. Almost all the marks were developed in the Crusade/HH era, and then remained unchanged for ten millennia, and only mark VIII was developed during that time. It is completely absurd and unbelievable.
I mean, if we got into "absurd and unbelievable things in the 40K background material", we'd be here all day.
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tauist wrote: But of course! The Catapractii termies coming in the HH 2.0 box are new sculpts, and will most likely be available as a separate kit later, making the existing Catapractii kit obsolete. GW wants to dump the old stock in time for the new kit.
Could be they're just reboxing them? Tbh I'm not familiar enough with the kit to be able to tell whether the ones in the leaked images are new or if they're staying stumpy-scale.
Crimson wrote: Marine armour marks never made any sense to begin with. Almost all the marks were developed in the Crusade/HH era, and then remained unchanged for ten millennia, and only mark VIII was developed during that time. It is completely absurd and unbelievable.
I mean, it makes sense if you consider that the imperium is supposed to be stagnant since then, especially after RD died, him being the last of the Primarchs. The Mk VIII is basically Mk VII after all, with some up armoring in known weak spots like the neck shot-trap.
Nicky J wrote: The existing plastic stuff going Last chance to buy is for rerelease in the new packaging/logo when the rest of the new stuff comes out, surely?
Doubt it, they will be redone in the new scale size, making most people rebuy what they already have to ensure everything looks good together. I don't think anything else has gone to Last chance to buy for reboxing. Previously they just went out of stock for prolonged periods before coming back in new boxes, sometimes with fewer sprues per box.
Crimson wrote: Marine armour marks never made any sense to begin with. Almost all the marks were developed in the Crusade/HH era, and then remained unchanged for ten millennia, and only mark VIII was developed during that time. It is completely absurd and unbelievable.
I mean, it makes sense if you consider that the imperium is supposed to be stagnant since then, especially after RD died, him being the last of the Primarchs. The Mk VIII is basically Mk VII after all, with some up armoring in known weak spots like the neck shot-trap.
No it doesn't. Such complete stagnation for ten millennia that even visually different arrangement of armour plates wouldn't emerge is completely unbelievable. Hell, stagnation would probably lead to a lot of new types of armour, as old technologies and manufacturing methods would be lost and people would be forced to do things differently. And of course given galactic distances, this would lead to a plethora of different types of suits in different parts of the galaxy.
All that matters is whether the models look good. The new beakies look pretty good, so all is well. I will definitely get some for kitbashing.
Nicky J wrote: The existing plastic stuff going Last chance to buy is for rerelease in the new packaging/logo when the rest of the new stuff comes out, surely?
Doubt it, they will be redone in the new scale size, making most people rebuy what they already have to ensure everything looks good together. I don't think anything else has gone to Last chance to buy for reboxing. Previously they just went out of stock for prolonged periods before coming back in new boxes, sometimes with fewer sprues per box.
They've purposely made these new HH marines slightly smaller than Primaris and slightly larger than Firstborn so that they can fit into both armies, I'm almost 100% certain. I wasn't sure what size they would be at first, I just assumed Primars scale because that would be the best way (imo) but I saw what looks to be an accurate scale comparison today and it seems like the bridging between both scales theory is the correct one.
/Edit - the pic
/Edit 2 - Having said that, I think the stuff will be redone in plastic. It's far more popular than resin, can be made cheaper, just a better product all round imo, even when considering the advantages that resin has over plastic. Plus I think FW just send most stuff out in FW bags don't they? idk it's been a while since I bought any official FW stuff, but that would make the packaging question moot in most cases.
tauist wrote: But of course! The Catapractii termies coming in the HH 2.0 box are new sculpts, and will most likely be available as a separate kit later, making the existing Catapractii kit obsolete. GW wants to dump the old stock in time for the new kit.
At this point, the miniature contents of HH 2.0 box is pretty much confirmed (the actual amount of minis is yet to be confirmed however). First supplementary kits to follow the box will be Sicarius, Deimos Rhino/Predator, Leviathan dread..
The Cataphractii in the box images that leaked are the existing models.
Nazrak wrote: (e.g. they did away with the idea of MkII and III suits having the helmet fixed in place, with the wearer's head moving about *inside*, presumably on the basis that 1. it made for less dynamic models and 2. it was silly)
No, that was Mk II only (had helmet riveted to chest in old art). Mk III was explicitly improvement on that as in the helmet moving freely - and getting rid of it was pure garbage as the old lore sold the idea of PA improving with every iteration (plus verisimilitude as the neck protection is hardest design part in virtually any armour in history). In new, trash one you wonder why they built anything past Mk II as all of its drawbacks and shortcomings were retconned away and it did everything perfectly already.
Ditto with HH graviton guns, old rules had them clearly being precursor to grav guns of M41 (which they are in fluff, making the rules pretty much perfect). Then some clown in FW rule writing department got rid of that easter egg making the graviton substantially different (and worse) and from then on it virtually disappeared from the tabletop, too...
Kind of a shame. Those look pretty good for generic FW marines. Part of me likes the less ornated look
Nah, they look bad. Look at thighs in particular, that part of the leg is always the thickest, especially in bodybuilder types like SM, and yet here it's so anorexic it makes even the worst Sisters of Battle proportions look almost okay. It's almost the same thickness as their forearms! [not to mention usual squat SM issue of missing half of the spine between ribcage and pelvis, though at least here pelvis itself is not as comically wide as usual in old SM models]...
Nazrak wrote: (e.g. they did away with the idea of MkII and III suits having the helmet fixed in place, with the wearer's head moving about *inside*, presumably on the basis that 1. it made for less dynamic models and 2. it was silly)
No, that was Mk II only (had helmet riveted to chest in old art). Mk III was explicitly improvement on that as in the helmet moving freely
The WD129 article specifically states that "In earlier armour the helmet is fixed and the wearer's head is free to move inside. In Mark 4 and later versions (emphasis added) the helmet is not fixed but moves with the wearer's head."
Makes sense really given that Mk 3 was basically Mk 2 with extra armour plating on the front.
tauist wrote: But of course! The Catapractii termies coming in the HH 2.0 box are new sculpts, and will most likely be available as a separate kit later, making the existing Catapractii kit obsolete. GW wants to dump the old stock in time for the new kit.
At this point, the miniature contents of HH 2.0 box is pretty much confirmed (the actual amount of minis is yet to be confirmed however). First supplementary kits to follow the box will be Sicarius, Deimos Rhino/Predator, Leviathan dread..
The Cataphractii in the box images that leaked are the existing models.
Are they confirmed to be the exact same models as the existing ones? If so, this one is puzzling.. Tartaros is still remaining in stock, so this doesn't seem like it's caused by repackaging to newly branded boxes.
Might simply be a matter of production control. If they're the same models, funnel production into the new box set and not the stand-alone kit.
Pick it back up after the boxed set goes out of production (or demand goes down, if its going to stick around as a starter)
Cynically (though I sincerely doubt the cataphracts are going to be anyone's primary draw to this box), GW doesn't want anything to detract from sales of this box. So not selling anything that overlaps makes some sense.
I don't understand why the cataphractii terminators seem to be going LCTB too. The rumours had the regular cataphractii terminators on them. I hope they got a rescale but I seriously doubt it.
LostTemplar wrote: I don't understand why the cataphractii terminators seem to be going LCTB too. The rumours had the regular cataphractii terminators on them. I hope they got a rescale but I seriously doubt it.
Resin contemptors will be like 300% their original msrp, should plastic contemptors be monopose.
If that box price is true... Ugh. 240 pounds will be like 270 euros if not more. Pretty much a 1/4 of what an average person earns per month
Geifer wrote: That quiz is nonsense. There is a distinct lack of bunkers in those answers.
I can't work like this.
Take it again, there were bunkers in my path.
Got Imp Fists the first time through. Ultras on the second pass.
Not too shocking, i do love a good stubborn bolter drill.
Eh, given my opinion on the novel series and consequent lack of knowledge of what its authors envisioned the legions to be, I might as well guess randomly and have as good a chance of getting a specific legion as if I tried to get it right.
CragHack wrote: Resin contemptors will be like 300% their original msrp, should plastic contemptors be monopose.
If that box price is true... Ugh. 240 pounds will be like 270 euros if not more. Pretty much a 1/4 of what an average person earns per month
FW is still selling the Legion-specific Contemptors and the Relic version though and with the resin arms going LCTB it indicates that the new plastic weapons will be compatible with the resin Contemptors that remain. I'll be hopefully optimistic with the new Contemptor because the Redemptor is a good kit with a lot of posing options with minimal work.
tauist wrote: Ok, it's pretty clear from these LCTB announcements which kits will be going to plastic in the first wave of HH 2.0. I'm pretty sure the Sicaran will be a combo kit with Kratos build option onboard, and that we will be seeing a plastic Deimos Rhino soon. None of the Deimos Rhino doors are LCTB so this is pretty much a given. Glad I held off buying a Deimos as I hate resin/plastic hybrid kits; they have all the downsides of both kit types, I've heard horror stories about resin sides not fitting plastic floorings etc.
So the big money question is: Will the new plastic kits cost more than the resin kits of the same vehicles?
tauist wrote: Ok, it's pretty clear from these LCTB announcements which kits will be going to plastic in the first wave of HH 2.0. I'm pretty sure the Sicaran will be a combo kit with Kratos build option onboard, and that we will be seeing a plastic Deimos Rhino soon. None of the Deimos Rhino doors are LCTB so this is pretty much a given. Glad I held off buying a Deimos as I hate resin/plastic hybrid kits; they have all the downsides of both kit types, I've heard horror stories about resin sides not fitting plastic floorings etc.
So the big money question is: Will the new plastic kits cost more than the resin kits of the same vehicles?
I think its likely...
I'm sure you can gauge the approximate price by examining the prices of recent plastic kits of similar size.
tauist wrote: Ok, it's pretty clear from these LCTB announcements which kits will be going to plastic in the first wave of HH 2.0. I'm pretty sure the Sicaran will be a combo kit with Kratos build option onboard, and that we will be seeing a plastic Deimos Rhino soon. None of the Deimos Rhino doors are LCTB so this is pretty much a given. Glad I held off buying a Deimos as I hate resin/plastic hybrid kits; they have all the downsides of both kit types, I've heard horror stories about resin sides not fitting plastic floorings etc.
So the big money question is: Will the new plastic kits cost more than the resin kits of the same vehicles?
I think its likely...
I'm sure you can gauge the approximate price by examining the prices of recent plastic kits of similar size.
I mean, as much as GW in GW, generally, when going from Resin to Plastic, most kits go down in pricce. For example, the HH Terminators or the HH Mark III and IVs sets, or the AoS Blood Knights.
So the big money question is: Will the new plastic kits cost more than the resin kits of the same vehicles?
I think its likely...
T
Considering the Sicaran is like £90 currently and the Land Raider is only £52.50 and they are roughly similar in size, no. No they will not.
A FW tank is a solid chunk of resin attached to slightly smaller chunks of resin. GW plastics aren't and less material is used, so the kits are cheaper.
First, "only" £52.50 is hilarious. I remember I was selling it for 39 euros back when I was a redshirt.
Second, there's another one at £65, as well as a repulsor, so I wouldn't really be very surprised if they cost that at the very least.
I expanded upon my reply. Also, the specific post the user made was about the kits will be more expensive than the plastic ones. You seriously think without any stupid "GeEdUbLU bAd" nonsense that a plastic redo of the Sicaran will somehow be more expensive than the current model? How? I want a legit reason based on actual fact and not just "Duuuuuuhhh cuz GW bad".
Will they be expensive? Yes. Will they be more than the current prices (Sicaran £92.50, Spartan £127.50, Deimos Rhino £46)? Absolutely not.
RazorEdge wrote: I fear they could retcon HH to make the MkVI stardard through the Heresy.
For god's sake stop overreacting. The Alpha Legion and Raven Guard had access to a lot of MkVI before the Heresy broke out and the Mechanicum, both Loyalist and Traitor, had already begun mass-producing it to supplement the Legions prior to Horus's revolt. You have to remember the Heresy wasn't some quick conflict, it lasted almost a decade, and it's already canon that by the Siege of Terra MkVI was the most common armour present in the Legions. Hell, when the Imperial Fists got involved with the Martian Schism it was Sigismund's final order to evacuate as much arms and armour as possible for the Loyalist cause before retreating. Both sides were also in no way adverse to stripping their fallen enemies of everything they could to both prevent its use and as small acts of vengeance.
The MkIV and III kits are still in production and FW is still selling its resin variants of the armour marks. Stop being paranoid.
I don't think being upset that the most under-used armor type becoming the poster boy armor in a game that is treated by a large portion of the community as a "historical" system is over-reacting. Pretty much everything you describe in your statement is true, yet this armor was still not seen in great numbers outside the RG, AL, and WS until or just before SIEGE OF TERRA, which is almost being treated as a separate IP at this point.
That aside, the Heresy was about a decade long, and at the beginning, the Legions were just finished getting equipped with shiny new MKIV armor. A few years in, these freshly stocked Legions were savaged beyond belief, and their somewhat plentiful MKIV armor was starting to dwindle. What did the Legions do? Start making chimeric suits, or producing a standardized "salvaged" suit of power armor which became known as MKV. -AND/OR- They opened up their hidden stores and old armories and distributed thousands of mothballed suits of less advanced but more simply maintained armor which was in its entirety made up of MKII CRUSADE ARMOR. The armor that once protected every single Space Marine during the Crusade, the most mass produced suit ever developed.
And you can't even purchase it. Like I'm ok with plastic MKVI existing, but it should not be the poster boy armor. If people want generic "one size fits all" approach to their Warhammer game they'll play 40K. Which is fine, but a massive portion of HH players got into the game because they had such subtle choices in personalizing their chosen Legion to the best of their ability to represent the lore accurately. GW should really have made MKII, or at least MKV with this boxset.
But yeah, Heresy vets have a right to be upset with this.
Like what are Salamander players gonna do with MKVI? The Salamanders were one of 3 Legions given MKVI to field test, and they HATED it, it didn't meld with their tactics at all, and while being an advanced suit, they preferred the use of heavier older marks that complimented their close range tactics. OH well you can buy MKIII and MKIV! And fight your buddies army with his upscaled marines that are all a whole head or more taller.
Different armour Marks didn't even exist in the original Heresy pre-BL.
All you describe above is post-retcon anyway and pointless drivel of no concern to genuine Horus Heresy fans.
You're actually mental lol. What to you is a "genuine" Horus Heresy fan then? RT era players?
But yeah, Heresy vets have a right to be upset with this.
No we don't. Its just a fething game with a made up history that can and will be changed as often as it suits the needs of the writers. Get over yourself already.
People spend lots of money and get very invested in the lore/hobby of any game system they play. Your mentality is gak lol.
Different armour Marks didn't even exist in the original Heresy pre-BL.
All you describe above is post-retcon anyway and pointless drivel of no concern to genuine Horus Heresy fans.
Rick Priestly and the 1991 Compilation disagree with you.
Now of course all of the original Epic and Titanicus art had lil tiny Mark 6 Marines since at the time that was the only brand of Marine. So Marks 1-5 were shoved into the Unification Wars, the Great Crusade and the early Heresy, but they were definitely there.
So the big money question is: Will the new plastic kits cost more than the resin kits of the same vehicles?
I think its likely...
T
Considering the Sicaran is like £90 currently and the Land Raider is only £52.50 and they are roughly similar in size, no. No they will not.
A FW tank is a solid chunk of resin attached to slightly smaller chunks of resin. GW plastics aren't and less material is used, so the kits are cheaper.
That's not how it works though. They'll assign whatever price they think the market can bear.
First, "only" £52.50 is hilarious. I remember I was selling it for 39 euros back when I was a redshirt.
Second, there's another one at £65, as well as a repulsor, so I wouldn't really be very surprised if they cost that at the very least.
I expanded upon my reply. Also, the specific post the user made was about the kits will be more expensive than the plastic ones. You seriously think without any stupid "GeEdUbLU bAd" nonsense that a plastic redo of the Sicaran will somehow be more expensive than the current model? How? I want a legit reason based on actual fact and not just "Duuuuuuhhh cuz GW bad".
Will they be expensive? Yes. Will they be more than the current prices (Sicaran £92.50, Spartan £127.50, Deimos Rhino £46)? Absolutely not.
I don't believe FW's prices are due to them being resin, but rather due to the fact that they can ask that much and people will buy it. They absolutely will ask that kind of money for plastic, if they think they can get away with it.
Or do you really think this is more expensive, material-wise, than a resin Sicaran? (one example, picked more or less at random. There's more)
Can't someone post this stuff someplace other than Discord? Whatever happened to leaks popping up on Imgur?
Sorry, that's me being an idiot.
https://imgur.com/a/KHnbjdX I didn't realise "copy link" on Discord copies a link to the message, not the content of the message!
JWBS wrote: The general consensus is that resin is more expensive in material, in labour, and in economies of scale.
And plastics are more expensive in moulding and design, yes.
Bt if GW is already asking money in the ballpark of FW designs, that's more than a bit immaterial.
They will price their stuff at whatever they think they can get away with. If they think that by being HH they can ask more for stuff than regular 40k... they will.
Now the question is whether they think that. They did believe that back when they released separately the stuff from the Calth and Prospero boxes, and they marked them up compared with comparable 40k stuff.
JWBS wrote: The general consensus is that resin is more expensive in material, in labour, and in economies of scale.
True, but GW's prices are all so far above actual production costs they really only minimally factor into it.
You can buy higher quality resin sculpts, with better quality customer service, for cheaper than Forgeworld. That's stuff cast and distributed in the UK too, so it's not like they're using Chinese labour. Plus they're smaller companies so don't benefit from the economy of scale as much as GW.
I suspect a plastic spartan will cost as much or more than a Repulsor because they're a larger and more expensive (in game) model, therefore can command a higher price. Probably more for the reasons mentioned, combined with GW's standard price marching. Maybe £70-80.
I think the theory that is manufacturers / retailers price stuff to sell at he highest profit, not necessarily the highest price, ie if they can make more money selling at £9 than they can at £10 then they should sell at £9, which is an important distinction, though tbh I've given up on looking for consistency in their pricing model (except that ever constant upward trajectory, that's hard to miss).
I really hope they keep the same image style of real models photographed in "real life".
It looks so awesome and really ties in the models to the world.
kirotheavenger wrote: I really hope they keep the same image style of real models photographed in "real life".
It looks so awesome and really ties in the models to the world.
Yes, I hope so too. The battle scenes using photoshoped minis were the thing that I always preferred about FW books. In comparison, 40k codices have amazing art, but their miniatures battle scenes look awful.
How could the codex battle scenes using real life minis look awful? Disclosure, I haven't bought a codex in many years, but I have stacks of WDs and old codices and I have very fond memories of the battle displays, even with the goblin green bases, even with the candid pics taken by (assuming) amateur photographers. How could they mess this up, given that they had the technique perfected in the nineties? Maybe it's just my nostalgia, but I'm having difficulty imagining their battle scene dioramas look bad (and yes I agree the HH black book scenes are among the best).
I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
You can keep playing the old edition alone. That way can you can gatekeep everyone else.
People complaining about "anachronistic" armor marks is the logical end result of the same attitude that led to that WD guy's Son of Horus army getting excoriated. First of all, yes, there was Corvus armor in production by that time. Even Mk. VII was being produced by the Siege of Terra. Secondly, what are you trying to prove? That you're more of a pedant than anyone else?
RaptorusRex wrote: People complaining about "anachronistic" armor marks is the logical end result of the same attitude that led to that WD guy's Son of Horus army getting excoriated. First of all, yes, there was Corvus armor in production by that time. Even Mk. VII was being produced by the Siege of Terra. Secondly, what are you trying to prove? That you're more of a pedant than anyone else?
Exactly. My army is comprised of M&M's, arranged by colour to denote unit type, pressed into bits of blu tack. I'm no snob.
Nobody, nobody, said there wasn't. Everyone knows that. We just want to respect the authors and the game and Hobby we have been loving for years. And if it suddenly get changed to "wololo MKVI for everyone, everywhere, MKVI at Istvaan III for all legionaries" everyone should be unhappy. Because they are altering our hobby for no good reason.
But apparently, "she got a new hat" isn't just a Simpsons' thing...
We'll soon see, but I still have hope the fluff will be respected.
I don't know for this guy, what happened exactly ?
On another topic, the rules I've seen so far look really close to the one we have already. With a few ofc, it was kinda hard to read, not gonna lie. The point costs seem to have raised everywhere I looked, which is a bit surprising
RaptorusRex wrote: People complaining about "anachronistic" armor marks is the logical end result of the same attitude that led to that WD guy's Son of Horus army getting excoriated. First of all, yes, there was Corvus armor in production by that time. Even Mk. VII was being produced by the Siege of Terra. Secondly, what are you trying to prove? That you're more of a pedant than anyone else?
Exactly. My army is comprised of M&M's, arranged by colour to denote unit type, pressed into bits of blu tack. I'm no snob.
While I am happy to play you, our house rule is that food left on the gaming table is fair game for anyone. Units may be subject to accidental orbital bombardment/kidnappings.
RaptorusRex wrote: People complaining about "anachronistic" armor marks is the logical end result of the same attitude that led to that WD guy's Son of Horus army getting excoriated. First of all, yes, there was Corvus armor in production by that time. Even Mk. VII was being produced by the Siege of Terra. Secondly, what are you trying to prove? That you're more of a pedant than anyone else?
I agree. I love adding little details to my miniatures, but I'm gonna use Primaris bodies for my HH marines (if I choose), because they look better than firstborn, and idgaf if some nerd thinks badly of me because of it, I guarantee that nine times out of ten I'm a better painter than the (theoretical) guy that's complaining, and my marines will be better proportioned too.
I think a bigger problem than the community in this case, and my personal titan sized bugbear with GW, is that they refuse to accept their responsibility as conservators of the setting.
Their product really isn't the miniatures, the books, the rules, etc; those are the things they sell; but their actual product that drives fan engagement is the IP (or to fans, "the setting"). Their whole business model, whether they realize it or not, is built around what the early anime industry coined as "the media-mix strategy" where all the products you release are designed to harmoniously build a fictional space where fans want to engage and even create their own derivative content.
The problem that GW has though is that they still treat the IP itself as conveniently malleable window dressing when it should be their main focus. Horus Heresy demonstrates this more intensely than 40k or post-8e 50k because it should be a historical and therefore should have certain facets which are set in stone.
If a player, against the established lore, wants to make some "ahistorical" choices in their army then that's their decision. They can play a non-canonical what-if variant with willing opponents, in the same way that Weird WW2 was spawned out the the desire to play miniatures games set in WW2 with kooky occult additions.
But that doesn't mean GW needs to leave the setting open for someone to just pour out their existing 40k collection and call it canonical. They also shouldn't be completely retconning previous bits of lore to justify their choice of box set contents...
godardc wrote: And if it suddenly get changed to "wololo MKVI for everyone, everywhere, MKVI at Istvaan III for all legionaries" everyone should be unhappy.
But that hasn't happened. The most recent lore simply states that Mark VI was in regular use by the end of the heresy and was the most numerous pattern in service at the time of the Siege. There's nothing particularly revolutionary or nonsensical about that.
Seems like a very silly discussion when the history of the Heresy background is just a series of retcons. It wasn't AT ALL some kind of steady build of new details that preserved all previous details. One can have a favorite spot on that continuum, but claiming it was 'right' at this one spot and anything past it is 'wrong' seems pretty egotistical. Although it is pretty consistent with modern geek behavior in its obsessive focus with 'canon' and treating IPs as technical manuals.
GW already sell Mk.III and Mk.IV kits. They're not about to release their big splashy full-supported-by-GW-proper Horus Heresy game using the kits they already sell. Of course they're going to make a new set of 30k Space Marines, and Beakies are classic Marines.
zedmeister wrote: Nice image from thehoruseheresy.com with the new contemptor on the right. Spoilered because massive:
Spoiler:
I'm glad someone noticed it. Shows off part of what's going to be in the box, as that tank, the Praetor, and that Contemptor match the mini pics we've seen so far. I'd assume the Termies do, but they're pretty far in the background.
TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players. Imagine if it were replaced with Mk.II, the hoarding would be insane.
JSG wrote: TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.
You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".
You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?
I don't really get the hate on the beaky armor. It was an armor style that was in vogue during the latter years of the Heresy.
One thing I've noticed is a LOT of emphasis on the Titans. In that image above, that's a Warmaster titan on the right, which doesn't have a 28mm scale counterpart, it's only in Titanicus.
Might we see some tighter connections between Adeptus Titanicus and 30k?
The original 1987 space marine release had more beakies than non-beakies.
/Edit - from what I can see, the first "Imperial marine" is from 1986 and was a beaky. and a set called c100 space marines was released after that and was mostly beakies.
I don't think anyone hates MKVI armor. MKVI armor is pretty neat. We are just confused why you would use it to relaunch your game system when there is a better armor choice that EVERY legion had in large quantities that is lacking a kit.
I don't really get the RT examples of MKVI existence. HH has had a solid narrative and lore following the launch of the game system and the black books for 10 years. This is what everyone is basing their arguments off of, the most recent accepted lore that has been added to for the course of a decade. Alongside the BL novels.
ALSO:
This plastic contemptor kit better be fething fantastic if they are removing all weapon options from FW. I dont even know why they're removing contemptor weapons, seeing as every legion has a Contemptor specially made for them, how will those models get weapons now? I HOPE you don't have to purchase a plastic contemptor to get weapons for your resin contemptor, that would just be silly and GW would never do that.......right?
If you want lore reasons to justify the objection you need to be logically consistent, ie you can argue for the original fluff or, like you say here, the most recent, in which case this newest fluff is the one for you, and it's what you're getting. Otherwise, you're just saying "I like this one better" (which is valid, imo, it's usually the reason I have for preferring one thing over another - but you can't use the "This is the most official" objection).
JWBS wrote: If you want lore reasons to justify the objection you need to be logically consistent, ie you can argue for the original fluff or, like you say here, the most recent, in which case this newest fluff is the one for you, and it's what you're getting. Otherwise, you're just saying "I like this one better" (which is valid, imo, it's usually the reason I have for preferring one thing over another - but you can't use the "This is the most official" objection).
Midnightdeathblade wrote: This plastic contemptor kit better be fething fantastic if they are removing all weapon options from FW. I dont even know why they're removing contemptor weapons, seeing as every legion has a Contemptor specially made for them, how will those models get weapons now? I HOPE you don't have to purchase a plastic contemptor to get weapons for your resin contemptor, that would just be silly and GW would never do that.......right?
I can quite easily believe that the legion specific bodies will retrospectively become an “upgrade” to the new plastic kit. It’s a bit silly to put the weapons OOPnow though, when the new kit hasn’t even been officially previewed, never mind given a release date. It’s not like they’re a bulky or resource intensive item, and I would assume that they’re one of the best sellers (by volume, at least).
JWBS wrote: If you want lore reasons to justify the objection you need to be logically consistent, ie you can argue for the original fluff or, like you say here, the most recent, in which case this newest fluff is the one for you, and it's what you're getting. Otherwise, you're just saying "I like this one better" (which is valid, imo, it's usually the reason I have for preferring one thing over another - but you can't use the "This is the most official" objection).
Its literally the official lore.
Oh wow you're right. That means the new stuff they're doing won't be official lore.
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.
Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Here's the HH bg pic shopped to a brighter version
I don't see how the MKVI models on the box wouldn't be accurate to "History" if that was the most used mark during the Siege Of Terra. Remember, this box isn't about any and every setting in 30k, it's about the siege. Yall just jonesing for Mk II, just like I was jonesing for proper plastic Mk VI for 20 years. I hope you too will get what you want eventually.
Cant say this pict wouldn't bring a tear to a RT fan's eye.. 2022! What a journey its been. Never thought I'd see the day.
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.
Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].
Honestly, all the current HH lore is retcons. None of the vehicles existed back when I played Epic, set initially during the Heresy. It’s not real history. Anytime GW want to change something they can and will. If that’s what you dislike that’s ok, but honestly anyone using the word ‘gatekeeping’ unironically is a hair away from saying the quiet parts out loud and not someone I’d game with anyway.
Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft. And people usually use gatekeeping to mean “keeping out women/BIPOC/LGBTQIA+” anyway. If you didn’t know that maybe don’t use the term. If you did, well…
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.
Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].
Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft.
Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.
And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.
JSG wrote: TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.
You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".
You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?
They're selling a heavily discounted space marine army in a box, the only danger lies in it selling out too quickly.
JSG wrote: TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.
You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".
You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?
They're selling a heavily discounted space marine army in a box, the only danger lies in it selling out too quickly.
I could actually see GW trying to leverage some of that quasi-historical sentiment some players have, getting people to invest in late war armor now that it comes out in shiny new, better proportioned plastic because it is markedly different from the Mk.III and IV armors that have been available in plastic already, and then getting easy additional sales on a second release down the line of an earlier armor like the much requested Mk.II. Get people to upgrade their old plastic models not once but twice, first for the better looks over what has previously been available, then another time for games set earlier in the war or during the Great Crusade. That'd be clever and in line with GW's goal of getting all the monies.
As a bonus they get to bring back beakies for the 35th anniversary of Rogue Trader and get some marketing value out of that.
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.
Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].
Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft.
Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.
And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.
It doesn't sound like a subreddit dying means very much to the game. Especially if the people involved don't want to educate new players.
Different armour Marks didn't even exist in the original Heresy pre-BL.
All you describe above is post-retcon anyway and pointless drivel of no concern to genuine Horus Heresy fans.
Rick Priestly and the 1991 Compilation disagree with you.
Spoiler:
Now of course all of the original Epic and Titanicus art had lil tiny Mark 6 Marines since at the time that was the only brand of Marine. So Marks 1-5 were shoved into the Unification Wars, the Great Crusade and the early Heresy, but they were definitely there.
To piggyback off this, the "Armour through the Ages" set that GW just put on LCTB is made up of models dated from 1990 (MkI and II) and 1991 (III-V).
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for complaining about HH retcons, did people forget the original Heresy ended with Horus being assaulted in his command bunker by the Emperor?
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.
Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].
Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft.
Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.
And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.
So let me get this straight? Not only do you want to establish some sort of "baseline" for how much research a person should do learning about a GAME OF TOY SOLDIERS, but that if everyone doesn't reach your arbitrarily set baseline, you would rather this game never existed, so that nobody could ever enjoy it?
I don't think I've ever heard a more egotistical comment online. You get the honour of being added to my ignore list today, farewell.
The Alpha Legion was able to acquire small numbers of Corvus Armour and modified it according to their Legion's own needs. Built in secret, the "Corvus-Alpha" pattern of Corvus Armour saw use openly during the Horus Heresy.
What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
This is pure conjecture on my part, but I stand by my belief that he started as just some random guy with opinions and either actively or passively came to the realization that he could monetize those opinions by leaning into the more controversial ones.
Look at this current controversy. It's a complete non-issue: The availability of a mark of armour among the legions by the time of the siege.
Does this affect the actual table top game in any way? No.
Does this affect peoples' existing model collections in any way? No.
Are people forced to buy these new models? No.
Does it massively impact the background story in any way? No.
This is literally the dumbest hill to die on. It has literally no substantive consequence to anyone except for their attachment to fringe notes in the game background. That's why I believe it has to be manufactured, because it's just so dumb.
As to the discussion on gate-keeping, Wha-Mu-077's point is pretty weak because what they're describing as gate keeping isn't gate keeping against new players, it's gate keeping against people who don't know how to do their own research. So in that regard, yes, enforcing standards on posting isn't a bad thing, but their example has nothing to do with gate keeping the hobby itself and thus doesn't really stand as a defence of it within the hobby.
Crimson wrote: What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
Just off the top of my head? The illustration on the page for the Night Lord's rules in 3.5 depicts one of the Night Lords in a "Beakie" helmet. Page 42 to be precise.
The Alpha Legion was able to acquire small numbers of Corvus Armour and modified it according to their Legion's own needs. Built in secret, the "Corvus-Alpha" pattern of Corvus Armour saw use openly during the Horus Heresy.
Regardless thanks for the link as you're proving the retcon though I suspect that wasn't your initial goal. If you look at the actual source cited in that entry, it's White Dwarf 469 from October last year when the contents of this set were likely already set in stone and portions even already produced. If that's the only source for it supposedly suddenly being the most common variant then they're changing the decades old backstory to match the realities of the real world physical products/production that they want to sell now. I'm not saying that I think there wasn't Mk VI around at that time (there absolutely was!) or that I don't like it's inclusion in this upcoming boxed set (I do!)... but let's not pretend that they're not fudging the history to suit their current agenda.
Again.. I'm glad they're making a new Mk VI set just like I was happy about the previous plastics of Mk II-IV. I'm even happier as a former truscale enthusiast that they've embiggened the marines. I thought Alpharius was foolish in selling his awesome custom supersized Alpha Legion minis but it turns out that he was ahead of the curve and can now rebuild them at a fraction of the cost!
JWBS wrote: The general consensus is that resin is more expensive in material, in labour, and in economies of scale.
China disagrees with ya xD
I'm going to assume this is in reference to recasters and, if so, I disagree.
Recasters are arguably not subject to the same quality standards for products or input materials, are likely operating under little to no health and safety regulations, are likely paying their staff nothing in wages and benefits compared to what is expected in the west, and are also likely operating at a scale that is massively dwarfed by GWs. The comparisons are weak.
I find pretty funny how one of the more popular armors 1-2 decades ago is now some kind of horrible thing to have produced in large quantities in "affordable" plastic? We would have been very hyped for plastic corvus armour back in the day. It was much more praised and famous than older armors.
Heck, MKIV was also some of the most liked armor and helmets designs until Primaris reused it and now many people dislike it as some kind of armor hipsters.
I mean. Mk 2 and 3 are also my favourite marks of armor. But we allready have armor 3 and 4. I can understand why GW didn't wanted to do mk2 because if people remembers correctly the current horus heresy production timeline is basically near the Solar Wars and the narrative end of the setting so it makes sense for them to tie it with this relaunch of the game.
And with stuff like this is pretty clear:
Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits
It's also entirely stupid given that, based on the rest of the rumoured scope of plastic kits, they will likely make MK2 in plastic eventually as well.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own
The key word is differ. If someone is only ok with people whose attitudes match their own then they are by definition INTOLERANT. I just figured I'd clarify the meanings of words since post 2016 we've crossed over into the bizzaro dimension of the multiverse. And I say that as someone who chose not to play against a local player back in 3rd edition when he was using a Confederate themed IG army. I didn't try to have him banished from the story nor did I refuse to engage with him (either in talk or in game when he wasn't using the particular army). No one is forcing you to agree with people you don't agree with but rather to just treat them like people. That's what's been lost in this supposedly more progressive era.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: It's also entirely stupid given that, based on the rest of the rumoured scope of plastic kits, they will likely make MK2 in plastic eventually as well.
Yeah. If GW keeps supporting HH is basically a given that they'll end up making MARK II or MARK V in plastic.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own
The key word is differ. If someone is only ok with people whose attitudes match their own then they are by definition INTOLERANT. I just figured I'd clarify the meanings of words since post 2016 we've crossed over into the bizzaro dimension of the multiverse.
I know what you are doing here is basically a proxy political discourse and has nothing to do with warhammer per se. But theres not a time where talking with people that has a genuine interest in a setting is a bad thing.
How many people has been teached about warhammer after doing a simple question like "Whats a bolter?" or "Ey look at this epic space man video I found, is this that warcraft thing you are always talking about?"
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own
The key word is differ. If someone is only ok with people whose attitudes match their own then they are by definition INTOLERANT. I just figured I'd clarify the meanings of words since post 2016 we've crossed over into the bizzaro dimension of the multiverse.
No, I mean keeping out racists, sexists and fascists, not "dude who has a bad opinion about Orks" or some other gak.
Galas wrote: I find pretty funny how one of the more popular armors 1-2 decades ago is now some kind of horrible thing to have produced in large quantities in "affordable" plastic? We would have been very hyped for plastic corvus armour back in the day. It was much more praised and famous than older armors.
I don't think the issue is it being in plastic but rather that the classic background is being altered to better the sales of that one kit.
And with stuff like this is pretty clear:
Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits
That comes from White Dwarf 129. From 1990.
If, for example, they aquired 20,000 suits and made another 20,000, that's definitely a "significant" quanity. When you have nine legions rebelling with likely a million or more Astartes, it's still not "the most numerous" model present by any stretch even if you double or triple the number. Words matter.
As for complaining about HH retcons, did people forget the original Heresy ended with Horus being assaulted in his command bunker by the Emperor?
It's retcons all the way down people.
Hell, I still have the 2E Chaos Codex where it states Fulgrim and the Emperors Children were with the loyalist legions who went to Istvaan, and Fulgrim decided to change sides during the parley with Horus there.
Anyway, I really don't care about the beakies one way or another, beakies never really "did it" for me (I like Mk3 best). It's just sad that HH brings forth the stereotype of historical wargamers arguing over the correct number of buttons on a particular year/campaign uniform.
Galas wrote: I find pretty funny how one of the more popular armors 1-2 decades ago is now some kind of horrible thing to have produced in large quantities in "affordable" plastic? We would have been very hyped for plastic corvus armour back in the day. It was much more praised and famous than older armors.
I don't think the issue is it being in plastic but rather that the classic background is being altered to better the sales of that one kit.
And with stuff like this is pretty clear:
Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits
That comes from White Dwarf 129. From 1990.
If, for example, they aquired 20,000 suits and made another 20,000, that's definitely a "significant" quanity. When you have nine legions rebelling with likely a million or more Astartes, it's still not "the most numerous" model present by any stretch even if you double or triple the number. Words matter.
You literally just made up some numbers to try to bolster your point.
I could say "I believe people is reading too much into this" but I know that people will do what gives them clicks and views.
But they aren't retconing anything. They chose this iconic armor kit to produce and they are using it to advertise the new edition of the game.
As much as I like MKII as my favourite type of armour I would find pushing them at the siege of terra as the most popular armour would be a bigger retcon.
And even still, is clear that they intend for you to use all classical marks of armor.
Did anybody said that they were retconing orks out of existence because all the fluff around 8th launch was about the ultramarines wars with the deathguard?
Chaos Space Marines can be seen in this armour despite its association with Imperial Space Marines; they captured a significant quantity of the suits on Mars during the Heresy, as well as Mechanicum production facilities, and were therefore able to produce their own Mark VI suits
That comes from White Dwarf 129. From 1990.
If, for example, they aquired 20,000 suits and made another 20,000, that's definitely a "significant" quanity. When you have nine legions rebelling with likely a million or more Astartes, it's still not "the most numerous" model present by any stretch even if you double or triple the number. Words matter.
And that was 'changed' in Mechanicum (9th 30k novel) to MK IV - the Loyalists (commanded by Sigismund) got 'over' 12,000 suits off Mars before it fell.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own
The key word is differ. If someone is only ok with people whose attitudes match their own then they are by definition INTOLERANT. I just figured I'd clarify the meanings of words since post 2016 we've crossed over into the bizzaro dimension of the multiverse. And I say that as someone who chose not to play against a local player back in 3rd edition when he was using a Confederate themed IG army. I didn't try to have him banished from the story nor did I refuse to engage with him (either in talk or in game when he wasn't using the particular army). No one is forcing you to agree with people you don't agree with but rather to just treat them like people. That's what's been lost in this supposedly more progressive era.
We do not have to tolerate intolerance. For example, we do not have to tolerate Nazis (neo- or otherwise) in our hobby.
Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.
And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.
This is the weirdest hill I have ever seen someone die on. It's so open ended and so personal that I think it is more or less impossible to define who is the "right" person in the hobby. Although I do get the sense that the definition is very agist because god forbid young people are interested in the hobby.
I sadly did not google bolters or Chaos Stars in 1997. Guess I don't count as a real player. I will therefore do my best to pollute the hobby corner so it dies for some reason nobody understands. I am, however, skeptical that it will die.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We do not have to tolerate intolerance. For example, we do not have to tolerate Nazis (neo- or otherwise) in our hobby.
You literally just made up some numbers to try to bolster your point.
That is what the "for example" is there in the sentence to indicate. If you have pre-2020 numbers from the background to use instead, I'd love to see them!
See? This is why I hate wargames. It appeals to the fanboy fantasy of people and corporations conspiring to destroy their toys just because they chose to make into plastic one style of power armour instead of other style of power armour.
Galas wrote: See? This is why I hate wargames. It appeals to the fanboy fantasy of people and corporations conspiring to destroy their toys just because they chose to make into plastic one style of power armour instead of other style of power armour.
Here. Have a virtual snickers. You get unreasonably hyperbolic when you're hungry for new models.
If you hate wargaming then this is an odd forum to repeatedly visit. I'm not gatekeeping but rather concerned for your mental wellbeing.
In all seriousness, the issue is more with the background change than the models. The only issue I've seen with the actual models brought up is the change in scale/proportions. I like it though.
JSG wrote: TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.
You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".
You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?
I'm not agreeing with his point, but I don't think it's a secret that Mark 6 is probably the more niche mark among the playerbase other than Mark 5. Not disliked, but not the first armour people who aren't playing RG (and maybe AL) reach for. By initially relaunching the game with plastic upscaled Mark 6 they can get all those sales for the new hotness now and when Mark 2 inevitably releases in the future, the people who would've preferred that all run and buy their stuff again, meanwhile if they'd done it the other way around there'd probably be less buying into it. I expect most Mark 3 and 4 owners will buy Mark 6 anyway just to bring everything up to scale.
Hopefully not a sign of things to come. I like Pre-Heresy World Eaters with the blue, and changing that would be an actual retcon (as opposed to there being Mk.VI armour).
Hopefully not a sign of things to come. I like Pre-Heresy World Eaters with the blue, and changing that would be an actual retcon (as opposed to there being Mk.VI armour).
I assumed it was a case of them having the white and blue armour at the beginning of the Heresy and slowly transitioning to red during.
Hopefully not a sign of things to come. I like Pre-Heresy World Eaters with the blue, and changing that would be an actual retcon (as opposed to there being Mk.VI armour).
One of the great things about the FW books is they introduced a number of variant schemes for Legionaries and the contexts which spawned them. This really opened up the Legion paint options and gave a lot more creative license to come up with your own variant scheme in an otherwise more limited "historical" setting. There are even variant schemes for the Custodes. Some of these variants nicely set up the direction of future warbands and Second Founding chapters.
The transitional World Eater scheme above is one of these.
I also like beakies for what they were in HH and for the old RT vibes, so I'm happy with this.
Would I have preferred to see a good Mark V set? Well, yeah, I absolutely love mark V, and to me is pretty much THE look of the Heresy, but I am probably a minority.
I also don't mind having Mk III and IV slightly smaller. I'm sure that once they are on the table it won't really be all that noticeable, and there's no way in hell I'm gonna throw away the army I have already painted, so...
JSG wrote: TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.
You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".
You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?
I'm not agreeing with his point, but I don't think it's a secret that Mark 6 is probably the more niche mark among the playerbase other than Mark 5. Not disliked, but not the first armour people who aren't playing RG (and maybe AL) reach for. By initially relaunching the game with plastic upscaled Mark 6 they can get all those sales for the new hotness now and when Mark 2 inevitably releases in the future, the people who would've preferred that all run and buy their stuff again, meanwhile if they'd done it the other way around there'd probably be less buying into it. I expect most Mark 3 and 4 owners will buy Mark 6 anyway just to bring everything up to scale.
Do we know that this is a "mk Vi relaunch"? Yes, there were quite a few in the animation, and the official line trooper pic of one guy is a beaky, but I'm pretty sure there were numerous non-helmed, non-beakies in the animation weren't there? And potentially many beakless actual models in the box? Maybe this "mk vi" as a base for a release is just an erroneous assumption. I get that there seems to be more of them than usual, and since they're among the most distinctive types it becomes obvious when they're numerous or not, but maybe they're not as endemic as people are assuming. I'm going to check the vid and the pics.
hmm seems animation is 100% beakies and from this I'd imagine the launch box is too.
did not realise people were this hung up on the armour mark lol, its absolutely silly and you are all wrong, clearly MKII is the better option for a box set.
roll a dice at start of game, on a 1-3 your game takes place on istvan if so, armies can only have exactly 20% mark 3 models, 30% mark 2 and 50% mark 4.on a 4-6 its siege of terra, armies struggled to put together resources so all models must be modelled with mixed sets, no fully kitted out units in matching uniform, its unrealistic that marines would even have full same mark set let along full unit of them.
Failure to keep to these exact historical numbers results in auto loss. make sure you bring enough alternately modelled marines to match the exact date of your games.
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.
Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Or people who do nothing but whine incessantly.
My guess - and it just that a guess - is they probably went with the MK VI because of it's association to the original Rogue Trader, and that it would also be more recognizable as a "retro" Space Marine armor to figured folks playing "modern" 40K who are not familiar with the Horus Heresy. The later mark of armor also gives it more cross-sell potential to current 40K players who might be so inclined to make more First Born.
I think we will see MK II and V in plastic as well. What makes me sad is we probably will not see the Mk III and IV in these new, better proportioned sizes since their plastic kits are relatively new (what are they, 7-8 years now? At least less than 10 years old).
Hopefully not a sign of things to come. I like Pre-Heresy World Eaters with the blue, and changing that would be an actual retcon (as opposed to there being Mk.VI armour).
I assumed it was a case of them having the white and blue armour at the beginning of the Heresy and slowly transitioning to red during.
roll a dice at start of game, on a 1-3 your game takes place on istvan if so, armies can only have exactly 20% mark 3 models, 30% mark 2 and 50% mark 4.on a 4-6 its siege of terra, armies struggled to put together resources so all models must be modelled with mixed sets, no fully kitted out units in matching uniform, its unrealistic that marines would even have full same mark set let along full unit of them.
Failure to keep to these exact historical numbers results in auto loss. make sure you bring enough alternately modelled marines to match the exact date of your games.
This one of my favourite posts on the whole Internet.
JWBS wrote: The general consensus is that resin is more expensive in material, in labour, and in economies of scale.
China disagrees with ya xD
Even in China, resin production is more expensive than injection moulded plastic. The fact that recasters can produce stuff cheaper than the original creator doesn't actually change the manpower involved, or the cost of materials involved.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Relying on Google for background knowledge is how you wind up with people thinking Mk6 armour in the Heresy is anachronistic.
I can't even begin to imagine what someone must have been through to think that talking to interested newcomers about the hobby is some sort of problem.
Crimson wrote: What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
Funnily enough, we've been asking that question since 2nd edition.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Hell, I still have the 2E Chaos Codex where it states Fulgrim and the Emperors Children were with the loyalist legions who went to Istvaan, and Fulgrim decided to change sides during the parley with Horus there. .
There's also the passage in the Ultramarines codex where it mentions that the 2nd and 11th Legions fought during the Heresy, probably on Horus' side.
I'm not agreeing with his point, but I don't think it's a secret that Mark 6 is probably the more niche mark among the playerbase other than Mark 5. Not disliked, but not the first armour people who aren't playing RG (and maybe AL) reach for. By initially relaunching the game with plastic upscaled Mark 6 they can get all those sales for the new hotness now and when Mark 2 inevitably releases in the future, the people who would've preferred that all run and buy their stuff again, meanwhile if they'd done it the other way around there'd probably be less buying into it. I expect most Mark 3 and 4 owners will buy Mark 6 anyway just to bring everything up to scale.
I think you've completely misjudged the playerbase there, to be honest. Mk6 hits the nostalgia buttons for the vets, and looks completely different to Primaris armour for everyone else. While there are certainly those who don't like it, from my experience the playerbase has always had a very large soft spot for beakies.
At a time when GW is leaning hard on the nostalgia buttons with practically every new release now being based on ancient Jes Goodwin concept art, tying the HH re-release back to the original Space Marine release is unsurprising and will for the most part be received well, IMO.
I think we will see MK II and V in plastic as well. What makes me sad is we probably will not see the Mk III and IV in these new, better proportioned sizes since their plastic kits are relatively new (what are they, 7-8 years now? At least less than 10 years old).
The last SM Devastators were less than 10 Yerars old, like some other Sets which got replaced.
I wonder if they bring two starter Paint Sets, but only different in Paints (Sons of Horus and Imperial Fists Sets) with 2-3 Marines on a Sprue..
Do you think we will see a intro starter Magazine with Miniature(s) like for the both other Systems?
We also have anniversary this Year; 35 Years of Warhammer 40.000[ and 35 Years of RT001
roll a dice at start of game, on a 1-3 your game takes place on istvan if so, armies can only have exactly 20% mark 3 models, 30% mark 2 and 50% mark 4.on a 4-6 its siege of terra, armies struggled to put together resources so all models must be modelled with mixed sets, no fully kitted out units in matching uniform, its unrealistic that marines would even have full same mark set let along full unit of them.
Failure to keep to these exact historical numbers results in auto loss. make sure you bring enough alternately modelled marines to match the exact date of your games.
Stop bringing perspective to this with humour (sad I can only exalt that once)
I honest just want to see them with a different helmet, literally any other helmet. I can't stop associating beakies with either assault marines or raven guard in general.
Crimson wrote: What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
Clearly this proves MK VI to be the worst Astartes armor ever produced or it and their wearers would still be around. Even MK IV, well known for requiring hard-to-find materials, and MK II/III, known for being difficult to maintain, have more presence in the resource-strapped chaos armory. Even the fact that MK VI is still in production with parts readily available (after a quick raid) doesn't seem to have bolstered its popularity among traitor forces.
Either that or it's the best armor and thus was given solely to the front line troops who all died and only the cowardly reserves with their obsolete junk armor managed to escape Terra alive.
Crimson wrote: What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
Clearly this proves MK VI to be the worst Astartes armor ever produced or it and their wearers would still be around. Even MK IV, well known for requiring hard-to-find materials, and MK II/III, known for being difficult to maintain, have more presence in the resource-strapped chaos armory. Even the fact that MK VI is still in production with parts readily available (after a quick raid) doesn't seem to have bolstered its popularity among traitor forces.
Either that or it's the best armor and thus was given solely to the front line troops who all died and only the cowardly reserves with their obsolete junk armor managed to escape Terra alive.
That, or the designers find it easier to make menacing-looking helmets with grilles instead of beaks.
Crimson wrote: What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
Clearly this proves MK VI to be the worst Astartes armor ever produced or it and their wearers would still be around. Even MK IV, well known for requiring hard-to-find materials, and MK II/III, known for being difficult to maintain, have more presence in the resource-strapped chaos armory. Even the fact that MK VI is still in production with parts readily available (after a quick raid) doesn't seem to have bolstered its popularity among traitor forces.
Either that or it's the best armor and thus was given solely to the front line troops who all died and only the cowardly reserves with their obsolete junk armor managed to escape Terra alive.
That, or the designers find it easier to make menacing-looking helmets with grilles instead of beaks.
ya know what we need? a CSM with a beakie helmet that's turned into a fang filled snout!
JSG wrote: TBH I think Mk.VI was chosen for the box because it's the least useful to most HH players.
You really think GW sat down and thought "Now what would players of this game like the least? What would be the most useless type of model to give them?".
You actually, truly, in your heart-of-hearts, think that this was an intentional decision they made?
I'm not agreeing with his point, but I don't think it's a secret that Mark 6 is probably the more niche mark among the playerbase other than Mark 5. Not disliked, but not the first armour people who aren't playing RG (and maybe AL) reach for. By initially relaunching the game with plastic upscaled Mark 6 they can get all those sales for the new hotness now and when Mark 2 inevitably releases in the future, the people who would've preferred that all run and buy their stuff again, meanwhile if they'd done it the other way around there'd probably be less buying into it. I expect most Mark 3 and 4 owners will buy Mark 6 anyway just to bring everything up to scale.
Do we know that this is a "mk Vi relaunch"? Yes, there were quite a few in the animation, and the official line trooper pic of one guy is a beaky, but I'm pretty sure there were numerous non-helmed, non-beakies in the animation weren't there? And potentially many beakless actual models in the box? Maybe this "mk vi" as a base for a release is just an erroneous assumption. I get that there seems to be more of them than usual, and since they're among the most distinctive types it becomes obvious when they're numerous or not, but maybe they're not as endemic as people are assuming. I'm going to check the vid and the pics.
hmm seems animation is 100% beakies and from this I'd imagine the launch box is too.
Yeah, the launch box is all beakies. We've had leaked pics of the contents for a while now. The trailer was just the box contents save for the new battle tank.
Crimson wrote: What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
Clearly this proves MK VI to be the worst Astartes armor ever produced or it and their wearers would still be around. Even MK IV, well known for requiring hard-to-find materials, and MK II/III, known for being difficult to maintain, have more presence in the resource-strapped chaos armory. Even the fact that MK VI is still in production with parts readily available (after a quick raid) doesn't seem to have bolstered its popularity among traitor forces.
Either that or it's the best armor and thus was given solely to the front line troops who all died and only the cowardly reserves with their obsolete junk armor managed to escape Terra alive.
That, or the designers find it easier to make menacing-looking helmets with grilles instead of beaks.
ya know what we need? a CSM with a beakie helmet that's turned into a fang filled snout!
Indeed. Twisted fanged beaky mouths (or beaky helmets that are actual beaks).
Man, y'all sleeping on Mark V Heresy pattern. Nothing is more awesome to me than armor so busted up and cobbled together that the only way they could make it serviceable is by using FIST-SIZED RIVETS to fasten plates of metal and ceramite together, give you slap on the bum and say 'off ya trot' with your barely-functioning bolter in hand.
I can only dream that someday we'll get a plastic Mark V kit. I know it's widely disliked but as an avid Space Sharks fan, none of the armor marks even come close to touching how cool Mark V is to me.
I'm not even joking. Y'all can have all your Mark II and Mark III and Mark IV and Mark VI all you want, but give me all your Mark V for trade.
drbored wrote: Man, y'all sleeping on Mark V Heresy pattern. Nothing is more awesome to me than armor so busted up and cobbled together that the only way they could make it serviceable is by using FIST-SIZED RIVETS to fasten plates of metal and ceramite together, give you slap on the bum and say 'off ya trot' with your barely-functioning bolter in hand.
I can only dream that someday we'll get a plastic Mark V kit. I know it's widely disliked but as an avid Space Sharks fan, none of the armor marks even come close to touching how cool Mark V is to me.
I'm not even joking. Y'all can have all your Mark II and Mark III and Mark IV and Mark VI all you want, but give me all your Mark V for trade.
I didn't used to have fond feelings for MkV, but after picking up the Armour Through the Ages set (literally ordered the day before GW put it up as LCTB) and I definitely bumped it up my list. MkIII is still my top pick (I just like my Marines with some chonk to to their design), but MkIV is definitely sitting as my second favorite with MkIV sitting down at the number three spot (though I only like it with some legion color schemes, like Death Guard in MkIV seems wrong to me). The rest are down at the bottom save for MkI which I don't rank because it's got a certain novel charm that makes it hard to rank.
The MkV from the Armour Through The Ages set sans 1998 plastic backpack, arms, shoulder pads and bolter:
drbored wrote: Man, y'all sleeping on Mark V Heresy pattern. Nothing is more awesome to me than armor so busted up and cobbled together that the only way they could make it serviceable is by using FIST-SIZED RIVETS to fasten plates of metal and ceramite together, give you slap on the bum and say 'off ya trot' with your barely-functioning bolter in hand.
I can only dream that someday we'll get a plastic Mark V kit. I know it's widely disliked but as an avid Space Sharks fan, none of the armor marks even come close to touching how cool Mark V is to me.
I'm not even joking. Y'all can have all your Mark II and Mark III and Mark IV and Mark VI all you want, but give me all your Mark V for trade.
If you're serious, send me a PM, I got 5 MkV resin torsos with absolutely no use whatsoever (bought the MkV Assault squad FW just to get RT era Jump Packs for my Beakies)
godardc wrote: I believe I hate everything so far. This release is a catastrophic failure for me, from the obvious retcons to the people accepting them like they had always been there, the unnecessary change of edition, the models and kits that aren't gonna be in the new edition, the end of the black books... If this proves a single thing, it's that there is never enough gatekeeping
Gatekeeping is poison. What a stupid post.
Gatekeeping is necessary to keep any sort of quality of the fanbase.
Without gatekeeping you get people going onto to the Warhammer 40k subreddit asking what a "bolter" is, and if they do anything on the tabletop, while posting a blurry picture of Primaris instructions, or posting pictures of the bloody Chaos Star and going "guys what's this thing????", instead of y'know, googling it like normal people.
It just nosedives the quality of any discourse when it's filled with people that have no clue about what they're doing.
Enjoy your corner of the hobby dwindling to nothing as you exclude everyone you sheer at for [insert spurious “reasons” and post-rationalised justifications].
Any hobby needs new blood. Keeping new excited people out is daft.
Hobby needs new blood, not people who can't be bothered to google the most basic 40k knowledge, like what a Bolter is or how the Chaos star looks like. That kind of people ain't gonna contribute much of value anyway, since clearly they don't actually remotely care, don't know anything about the hobby, and have no desire to learn anything by themselves unless someone hands it to them on a silver platter.
And i'd rather have my hobby corner die than see it be overrun with kind of people.
That's absolutely disgusting.
Gatekeeping is pure garbage. There's no "literacy test" to get in a hobby. If you have such thin skin then that's your problem.
Never squash someone's enthusiasm. They can always grow into something more.
In other news I'm not sure how I keep getting World Eaters when I play Blood Angels. |: T
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for complaining about HH retcons, did people forget the original Heresy ended with Horus being assaulted in his command bunker by the Emperor?
Gatekeeping is pure garbage. There's no "literacy test" to get in a hobby. If you have such thin skin then that's your problem.
Never squash someone's enthusiasm. They can always grow into something more.
Amen. Genuinely don't understand how regressive and closed-minded you'd need to be to type out something like that. If someone is interested in the hobby then help them learn whatever it is you find cool about it, don't shun someone because they haven't passed some arbitrary test. At the end of the day it's a hobby, not a career.
There are no retcons in 40K, just a succession of unreliable narrators
In my view, The Horus Heresy is a legend from the prehistory of the Imperium. The stories in the Black Library novels and the background in the Forge World books are just one version of what might have happened.
Arguing about what mark of armour was worn at the Siege of Terra feels a bit like arguing about exactly what style of helmet Achilles wore at the siege of Troy.
Theophony wrote: Doubt it, they will be redone in the new scale size, making most people rebuy what they already have to ensure everything looks good together. I don't think anything else has gone to Last chance to buy for reboxing. Previously they just went out of stock for prolonged periods before coming back in new boxes, sometimes with fewer sprues per box.
They've purposely made these new HH marines slightly smaller than Primaris and slightly larger than Firstborn so that they can fit into both armies, I'm almost 100% certain. I wasn't sure what size they would be at first, I just assumed Primars scale because that would be the best way (imo) but I saw what looks to be an accurate scale comparison today and it seems like the bridging between both scales theory is the correct one.
Where did you get this information? According to the article on the Warhammer Community page, "This might not be the first time we’ve seen Mark VI power armour in plastic (that would have been the first ever plastic kit for Warhammer 40,000 – RTB01), but this brings them up to date with the Mark III and Mark IV kits with LOADS of options."
hotsauceman1 wrote: And wasn't it just a justification as to WHY adeptis titanicus models where fighting eachother
Yeah, back then plastic molds were really expensive and a second model kit would have almost doubled the cost of the project. Titanicus (and Epic) likely wouldn't have happened without the first boxed game being the same models for both sides.
No One Important wrote: Either that or it's the best armor and thus was given solely to the front line troops who all died and only the cowardly reserves with their obsolete junk armor managed to escape Terra alive.
That would certainly explain a lot about the Veterans of the Long Sulk...
MonkeyBallistic wrote: There are no retcons in 40K, just a succession of unreliable narrators
In my view, The Horus Heresy is a legend from the prehistory of the Imperium. The stories in the Black Library novels and the background in the Forge World books are just one version of what might have happened.
Yeah, the black books even say they are not first-person accounts but assemblies of secondary and tertiary sources made several centuries after the conclusion of the Scouring, and definitely incomplete and inaccurate because some details had been deliberately obscured/censored.
Remember, the building of the Great Pyramid of Giza is closer to now than the Heresy is to “now” in 40K. Ten thousand years is a looong time.
hotsauceman1 wrote: And wasn't it just a justification as to WHY adeptis titanicus models where fighting eachother
More or less. It started as a fluff bit in the 1988 Rogue Trader book and then was built on when they did the AT (and later 1st edition Epic) to justify why both sides had the same robots but painted different colors.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: There are no retcons in 40K, just a succession of unreliable narrators
In my view, The Horus Heresy is a legend from the prehistory of the Imperium. The stories in the Black Library novels and the background in the Forge World books are just one version of what might have happened.
Arguing about what mark of armour was worn at the Siege of Terra feels a bit like arguing about exactly what style of helmet Achilles wore at the siege of Troy.
Crimson wrote: What is weird that even though Mk VI was super common during the latter phases of the Heresy, we basically never see CSM in armour derived from it. Where are all the CSM beakies?
It might not have any obviously MkVI helmets, but there are 3 MkVI torsos in the CSM kit (as well as some knee-pad-less legs which are presumably from MkVI suits).
MonkeyBallistic wrote: There are no retcons in 40K, just a succession of unreliable narrators
In my view, The Horus Heresy is a legend from the prehistory of the Imperium. The stories in the Black Library novels and the background in the Forge World books are just one version of what might have happened.
Arguing about what mark of armour was worn at the Siege of Terra feels a bit like arguing about exactly what style of helmet Achilles wore at the siege of Troy.
I don't know, coming in here spouting common sense and logic... didn't you get the memo? Only Hyperbole are authorised on the Internet.
Now report yourself to the Internet police immediately!
hotsauceman1 wrote: And wasn't it just a justification as to WHY adeptis titanicus models where fighting eachother
More or less. It started as a fluff bit in the 1988 Rogue Trader book and then was built on when they did the AT (and later 1st edition Epic) to justify why both sides had the same robots but painted different colors.
This is an extremely common misconception but there is no mention of the Horus Heresy in Rogue Trader.
hotsauceman1 wrote: And wasn't it just a justification as to WHY adeptis titanicus models where fighting eachother
More or less. It started as a fluff bit in the 1988 Rogue Trader book and then was built on when they did the AT (and later 1st edition Epic) to justify why both sides had the same robots but painted different colors.
This is an extremely common misconception but there is no mention of the Horus Heresy in Rogue Trader.
Yes. This is what is written about M30 in Rogue Trader:
"From amongst the chaos of the Age of Strife
one faction emerges as the victor, Slowly all
the galaxy is taken within its before present
fold and the Imperium is founded, The leader
of the Imperium is known only as the Emperor
- at this time still capable of independent life.
With the founding of the Astronomican,
psychic navigational beam directed by the
Emperor himself, interstellar travel becomes
easier and quicker. The repression and control
of psykers and warp creatures releases much
of humanity from its hellish bondage."
I don't think Rogue Trader even had the idea of Chaos Marines until its lore started expanding after the main book.
It didn't. 'Warp entities' were there, but they were very general (enslavers were the ones with more detail).
Mutants were the results of nuclear/biological/chemical incidents or problems. Chaos (let alone chaos marines) was just... not in the picture.
The 'implied setting' of Logans(?) World was _in_ the Eye of Terror, which was just a region of frequent warp storms so the narrative bastion for gameplay had competing factions rather than Imperial dominance (it was isolated for years at a time).
One of the few named (background!) characters in RT was Leman Russ, and he was a cyborg commander (and former pilot) with an 'osmotic lung' and was gifted command of the Space Wolves for whatever yadda yadda reasons. (Who weren't on Fenris, and neither was their very traditional fortress-monastery (The Fang). The planet's name escapes me at the moment)
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for complaining about HH retcons, did people forget the original Heresy ended with Horus being assaulted in his command bunker by the Emperor?
It's retcons all the way down people.
Don't spoil the ending!
Spoiler:
That would be hilarious if they use that as the ending for Seige of Terra!!
RazorEdge wrote: There is an illustration with the Emperor and Horus in the RT Rulebook.
Is there? I don't remember that, and a cursory look to the book hasn't revealed it. I do remember Leman Russ, though, and the dead emperor (I don't think there's any image in the RT book of the Emp not in the throne), but no Horus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for complaining about HH retcons, did people forget the original Heresy ended with Horus being assaulted in his command bunker by the Emperor?
It's retcons all the way down people.
Don't spoil the ending!
Spoiler:
That's from the Book of the Astronomican, right? IIRC it's the first place that the Horus Heresy actually appears.
drbored wrote: Man, y'all sleeping on Mark V Heresy pattern. Nothing is more awesome to me than armor so busted up and cobbled together that the only way they could make it serviceable is by using FIST-SIZED RIVETS to fasten plates of metal and ceramite together, give you slap on the bum and say 'off ya trot' with your barely-functioning bolter in hand.
I can only dream that someday we'll get a plastic Mark V kit. I know it's widely disliked but as an avid Space Sharks fan, none of the armor marks even come close to touching how cool Mark V is to me.
I'm not even joking. Y'all can have all your Mark II and Mark III and Mark IV and Mark VI all you want, but give me all your Mark V for trade.
Amen. Every time I say this I'm met with hostility about how gakky it is and how its "not a real mark of armor" (I'm glad recent publications have gone out of their way to largely dispel that myth and point out that it was a fairly well standardized assembly that wasn't without its own advantages over other armor marks).
Mk.II and Mk.V are the two I want the most, and, weirdly, are the only two they don't make in plastic. Even Mk.VIII exists in plastic thanks to the Deathwatch Vet kit (and the odd bit in the Tactical Squad box).
Seriously though, could just be an opportunity to cross sell Adeptus Titanicus.
