How do the Dark Eldar maintain their population? They are taking constant casualties from their raids, not to mention the 24/7 backstabbing and murdering that goes on in their society. To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

They live in the webway iirc, so I don't think it's mentioned how many there are.

I may be wrong, but I thought that most of the Eldar turned to the dark side, so there would originally have been more Dark Eldar than there were Eldar.

In regards to raising children, they might have their slaves do it.

*shrugs*

I am not really up on Dark Eldar to be honest.

Most of them (All Eldar withing 1000 light years iirc) had their souls ripped out of them and just dropped dead when Slannesh was born. According to the Eldar codex they kind of just appeared and have cities in the webway.

Also, just for some perspective, the human race only occupies one planet (as vaguely presumably do the DE) - is murdering and backstabbing, and has multiple wars killing huge oodles of people all the time but our population continue to grow...and the DE are *way* more into doing the nasty then the average human as far as I can extrapolate from the fluff.

Also, it is cannon that the Warp does not play well with the time stream of the rest of the universe. So perhaps Commeragh sits on a spot with accelerated time to allow quicker rearing of progeny.

Thor665 wrote:Also, just for some perspective, the human race only occupies one planet (as vaguely presumably do the DE) - is murdering and backstabbing, and has multiple wars killing huge oodles of people all the time but our population continue to grow...and the DE are *way* more into doing the nasty then the average human as far as I can extrapolate from the fluff.

Also, it is cannon that the Warp does not play well with the time stream of the rest of the universe. So perhaps Commeragh sits on a spot with accelerated time to allow quicker rearing of progeny.

Somewhat true. However, we don't have a galaxy full of enemies who want to exterminate us nor do we have to go out and kidnap people to torture so a Chaos god doesn't suck out our souls while we're alive. Also, we don't have to kill our superiors to get promoted. Also, we do occasionally work things out peacefully.

My guess is that they are humping like bunnies. The dark eldar have been steadily Increasing their activity and their holdings. So I am of the opinion that their numbers are in fact increasing. Unlike the prudish craftworld eldar.

Giant cloning vats.

I like the 'breed like rabbits' answer. And come on, even evil people care for their children (unless they are UBER evil.)

Maybe they are just the ultimate.. wait what was it you called it when people had as many kids as possible just for the economic support(of course, the DE would exploit their offspring in totally different ways) ... society.

Breed like rabbits, all get neglected and abused by the whole population, grow up just as angry as their ancestors. Has got to be that.

Naw, they probably take their kids with them when they raid.

Hey, gotta start em' young!

"Okay son, this is a Raider. We ride atop them so the slaughter may begin as soon as possible. They are made of only the finest wet cardboard..."

They are made of only the finest wet cardboard..."

Ahahahahahahaha! That part nearly made me wet myself.

They dont raid hard targets - overwhelming numbers, superior firepower and surprise - in the fluff they would not generally take many cas operating like they do

think using a warhammer to crack open a peanut

Thor665 wrote:"Okay son, this is a Raider. We ride atop them so the slaughter may begin as soon as possible. They are made of only the finest wet cardboard..."

"Alright son, now pay attention. When the Raider crashes it's essential to jump off immediately before someone stabs you and acts like you died in the crash. I know, because that's what I did to my father at your ag- *gurgle*"

well, it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if they were churning out babies, i mean they are addicted to pleasure!

yeah, I second the humping like rabbits. The dark eldar have given themselves over to Slannesh, it would only make sense that they're a tad less prudish than the Craftworld eldar.

Actually, a slight bit of threadjacking now... I thought the dark eldar chilled on Commoragh and nowhere else, using the webway only for transportation. I didn't think one could live in the webway.

My main army for the longest time was the Dark Eldar. They may be backstabbing and murderous, their ancestors being closest to the Fall than the other Craftworlds. They hide their Craftworld in the Webway to escape the clutches of the Great Enemy.

They hate Slaanesh and Chaos even more than normal eldar. So much so that they have almost no psykers in their entire sub-species. But because they don't have an infinity circuit or soulstones they need to constantly harvest souls to extend their own life spans. If not Slaanesh will slowly turn them into empty husks.

So the higher their status, the more slaves and subordinates they have. The longer their lives are. And less a chance Slaanesh as to devour their souls. So its a closed circle. Bound by the circumstances of their own existance. The only way to survive when you have a Chaos God eating your race is to be as ruthless and terrible as you can.

In a way I pity the Dark Eldar.

The only fluff I've read about their raids was against a village which only had a handful of peasants with hunting rifles to defend it; they lost about 3 men...

I imagine Commarragh as one big decadent city; filled with pleasure cults and as many places of vice as places of slaughter; I imagine they do pop out kids and just leave them with the slaves; at the end of the day, the DE can pop out anywhere at anytime for a brief raid, they don't need manpower to do that: So even a lone city could still be capable of what they are... with a positive birth rate.

I mean, they're hardly Empire-builders...

Maybe they even impregnate their Eldar slaves?

Dark eldar see themselves as superior to other races so from my own personal point of view im not sure they would allow one of their own species to be born through a 'lesser' race. Then again theres nothing to say they dont view other races as carriers for their own 'superior' race.

Henners91 wrote:Maybe they even impregnate their Eldar slaves?

All I can imagine now is Eldrad chained to the floor while a Dark Eldar stands over him undoing his belt and doing a menacing laugh.

Dark Eldar rape thier slaves.

Paul Atreides wrote:Maybe they are just the ultimate.. wait what was it you called it when people had as many kids as possible just for the economic support(of course, the DE would exploit their offspring in totally different ways) ... society.

It's a demographic that simply doesn't exist, made up in the 80s to foster support for funneling social services money into the military industrial complex.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:military industrial complex.

That's what the Imperium of Man IS.

...actually every race in 40K is basically that, yeah.

Dark Eldar rape anything with sexual weapon

romulus571 wrote:yeah, I second the humping like rabbits. The dark eldar have given themselves over to Slannesh, it would only make sense that they're a tad less prudish than the Craftworld eldar.

Actually, a slight bit of threadjacking now... I thought the dark eldar chilled on Commoragh and nowhere else, using the webway only for transportation. I didn't think one could live in the webway.

Why does everyone think they are given over to Slaanesh? They are not. They know only of pain. Slaanesh is always pulling on their souls. Their society is trapped in its current existance with no way out. They are given to extremes as all Eldar are. But are more predisposed to doing so because of it. The webway is the only place where the pull of Slaanesh is weak since it exists outside normal reality. Commorragh is a Craftworld, like Iyanden, Samm-Hain, Ulthwe etc. It is a world sized thing. Entirely self-sustained. They probably have forested zones, lakes and other things to maintain their population and to recycle the air.

The only other Craftworld to exist inside the Webway is the Black Library.

TauAdmiral wrote:

romulus571 wrote:yeah, I second the humping like rabbits. The dark eldar have given themselves over to Slannesh, it would only make sense that they're a tad less prudish than the Craftworld eldar.

Actually, a slight bit of threadjacking now... I thought the dark eldar chilled on Commoragh and nowhere else, using the webway only for transportation. I didn't think one could live in the webway.

Why does everyone think they are given over to Slaanesh? They are not. They know only of pain. Slaanesh is always pulling on their souls. Their society is trapped in its current existance with no way out. They are given to extremes as all Eldar are. But are more predisposed to doing so because of it. The webway is the only place where the pull of Slaanesh is weak since it exists outside normal reality. Commorragh is a Craftworld, like Iyanden, Samm-Hain, Ulthwe etc. It is a world sized thing. Entirely self-sustained. They probably have forested zones, lakes and other things to maintain their population and to recycle the air.

The only other Craftworld to exist inside the Webway is the Black Library.

I always thought that the dark eldar were given over to slaanesh in the sense that they are almost addicted to dealing pain and the thrill it gives them. The fact they gain pleasure from it means that their corrupted by slaanesh. However at the same time i know they loath slaanesh and essentially fear it?

Yes because slaanesh feeds off thier souls.I think it's because they don't have sprit stones.But dark eldar either breed like rabbits which has said many times over(chica chica wow wow chica wow)or they could clone themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thor665 wrote:Also, just for some perspective, the human race only occupies one planet (as vaguely presumably do the DE) - is murdering and backstabbing, and has multiple wars killing huge oodles of people all the time but our population continue to grow...and the DE are *way* more into doing the nasty then the average human as far as I can extrapolate from the fluff.

Also, it is cannon that the Warp does not play well with the time stream of the rest of the universe. So perhaps Commeragh sits on a spot with accelerated time to allow quicker rearing of progeny.

Or maybe it's the opposite where is really slow in that area of the warp.So it could be hundreds of years and they could still only have aged a day practiclly immortal.

Kids are just another weapon for the dark eldar. You pop them out and train them, and they are loyal for a while until they get it in their heads that you are weak and old. Then the stupid ones wake up dead while the smart ones either start their own kabals or take yours.

I dont see them doing anything to their immediate family. That would weaken their own power base and open them up to attack from outsiders. Kabals are constantly vying for each other. Open war is a product of only the lowest kababls that control perhaps a block or two.

But more intricate battles take place in the high Kabals. Where it is a murder here or there. Well placed lies and theivery.

I think people have the wrong view about the Dark Eldar.

I think the dark Eldar spen more time killing and raiding others, than backstabbing each other. Why kill your own race when you can capture and torture others?
Gladiators are more fun than killing friends, something they can bond over.

Breeding and the capture and integration of Craft world Eldar and the Exodites over a few generations who can tell the difference?

Slave -> Gladiator -> Warrior

You would do what you can to survive, and to stop being probed and poked!

fludit wrote:Gladiators are more fun than killing friends, something they can bend over.

Fixed.

Durandal wrote:Kids are just another weapon for the dark eldar. You pop them out and train them, and they are loyal for a while until they get it in their heads that you are weak and old. Then the stupid ones wake up dead while the smart ones either start their own kabals or take yours.

QFT.
Of course, there are place on this PLANET where it would be pretty much just as tough to survive.

They're not evil, just differently good...

Id say they raid soft targets

Do actually breed

and can live forever through eating souls.


Seems like the should be doing well in the 41st millenium.

SilverMK2 wrote:They're not evil, just differently good...

No they are irrevocably, iredeemably evil. I would go so far as to say the most evil of the races in 40k. Their debased ways created a Chaos god. Sure now alot of what they do i focused on getting them souls to replace their own, but who if Slaanesh disappeared tomorrow, I don't think the Dark Eldar would stop what they are doing. Why do they do it? Because it feels great and they can!

SilverMK2 wrote:They're not evil, just differently good...

QFT. But from a neutral and technical stanpoint good and evil are just names given to different view points.

Nope. They're about as evil as you can get without being corrupted by the warp.

A perfect example of a view that does not consult other looks at the same subject.

But all they're doing is continuing what they did before the fall, just with a bit more motivation?

They get joy from others pain and suffering! How evil do you have to be?

I agree that their one of the most evil races in 40k (if not the most). They have no regard for anyones lives other than their own (and in some cases even that is blurred e.g grotesques), their highly intelligent which means their constantly creating more curel implements/procedures, they toy with their potential victims before unleashing unholy hell upon them and to top it all of they have have arrogance and sinful pride that drives them to the extreme whether it be in battle or out of battle.

Lets face it, their a mess! (but a cool one!).

Spoken from the Human point of view they are evil. But I’m sue they don’t see it that way. They are only doing what they do to protect their souls.

There was a story printed once about the Craft World Eldar Sending diplomats to an imperial colony they were slain and the governor had their spirit stones worked in to his chains of office… long story short the elder wasted the colony but captured the governor alive they handed him over to the Harlequins who in turn handed him over to the Dark Eldar who on hearing what he did tortured him with their harshest devices to their disposal but the also are extending his life to torture him more.

The point is if they were truly evil they wouldn’t have given a fig over a few Craft World Eldars souls.

The only race that to today’s standards could be considered good is the Tau but I’m sure when the next codex comes out a bit more of the Grimdark side of the Tau will come out.

I agree with Obsidian here.

The human race is pretty darn "evil" if you look at us from the concept of cockroaches. Heck, if I have a chance I'm stepping on any cockroach I get a chance to. So to them I'm evil and to me they're a pest who are infesting my living space.

Extrapolate for any given race and you can see how evil (and good) is extremely relative to whatever viewpoint you're choosing to look at them through. Therefore, Dark Eldar are both good and evil in various amounts, depending on your point of view.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But all they're doing is continuing what they did before the fall, just with a bit more motivation?

They get joy from others pain and suffering! How evil do you have to be?

You guys are still looking at it from a standalone angle. You must realize that the DE's concept of what we think of as evil is by thier standards not only good but holy.But if you guys are still going to swim in your ignorance then I hope you won't drown in it.

I understand that DE wouldn't think of themselves as evil, but they most certainly would not think of them as good or holy.
Remember that story where Asdrubel Vect (or some such) summons a captive to his chamber, tells him the story of the Fall? Just before the prisoner is dragged away to be tortured once again, he asks "Why do you do this?" Asdrubal answers "Why? Becuase we can."

AT BEST they are acting out of fear, killing others to get save thier own skin. But (and I think some one already mentioned this) even if the motivation of pleasing Slaanesh was to suddenly dissapear, I don't think they would stop. They get a kick out of it.

@Obsidian: Harlequins are the go betweens/ambassadors atwixt the Craftworld Eldar and the DE. (They have been known to offer shows etc) Anywho, do you really think that the DE would NOT have tortured the guy? It was probably more his importance as a Planetary governer than what he did that warranted such harsh treatment.

Emperors Faithful wrote:AT BEST they are acting out of fear, killing others to get save thier own skin. But (and I think some one already mentioned this) even if the motivation of pleasing Slaanesh was to suddenly dissapear, I don't think they would stop. They get a kick out of it.

On this planet we kill sentient creatures in droves and consume their flesh in stages ranging from raw all the way to practically charred over open flame.

Almost every human on the planet doesn't think of this as evil because we consider the animals to be...animals. Also, for many of us, it's a matter of survival that we consume the flesh. I submit that it is highly likely that this is how the DE view every other species in the galaxy (up to and probably including their pathetically helpless, mislead, and wrong kin). It is a matter of survival for them to do what they do, and perhaps like a finely cooked steak they can enjoy it it still fails to prove them as evil.

I would challenge you to define evil without using subjective means. From Machiavelli to Martin Luther and Plato to Aristotle the nature of the definition of evil has been bandied back and forth. You proscribe to the belief of moral absolution - however it is certainly possible to hold belief systems beyond and past that when the true definition of evil is requested.

You are allowed quite easily to say "I believe the Dark Eldar are evil" This is an unassailable position.
It is quite difficult, however, to defend the statement "The Dark Eldar are evil."

Yup.

@Thor: I believe that majority of humans don't find it acceptable to torture the said animals for kicks.

Also, top even touch the subject of 'Dark Eldar = Evil' you'd firstly have to define evil.

By the majority/mainstream view on morals, they are evil. However, by their own morals...oh wait, they don't even have them.

'I am a very moral man, yet, I have no morals' -Voltaire, French philosopher

Does he mean that he complies with societies morals?

'The true measure of a man is what he would do if he was to believe that he could get away with it' -I forget.

Emperors Faithful wrote:By the majority/mainstream humans of the Planet Earth in our reality view on morals, they are evil. However, by their own morals...oh wait, I believe they don't even have them.

Fixed that for you.

On the subject of the good and evil question are you really going to sit there and tell me that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were nice guys who gave out candy to little kids and that all those mass graves were just their way of improving the landscape.

Good and Evil do exist but there are far more shades of grey than most people are willing to admit. The shades of grey throw off our sense of morality and cause us to question the existence of such things as good and evil; however many try to apply good and evil to entire species which is where alot of the breakdown occurs. Good and evil are judged on an individual level not a cultural level. I'm sure in dark eldar society for example there are individuals that may not necessarily agree with the mainstream dark eldar ideals and ideas and may simply do what they do because either a) they have no choice or b) the alternative is being eaten by a chaos god. In contrast there will be a sect within the dark eldar that do what they do because they enjoy it. which group do you think is good? the ones who are just trying to survive or the ones who enjoy torturing anything they can get their hands on and get off on causing others extreme pain. Good and Evil are very real.

and thus ends the philisophical part of this post.

EDIT: @Thor665: you throw around the word sentient to lightly. we are the only sentient beings on the planet so unless we're engaging in cannibalism I don't think we're roasting sentients creatures flesh on open flames.

On-Topic :

I think that the dark eldar are effectively immortal thanks to the soul eating process but i can't be sure where i heard that from.

To our moral stand point Hitler, Stalin, and Mao are unarguably evil, but i'm sure they didn't see it that way, what they did was a means to an end (blame all your problems on people from *insert race, life style or poltical group*) for them. Just look at Hitler and Starlin they were widly seen as a foce for good by the populas in the biginging.

The Unending wrote:In contrast there will be a sect within the dark eldar that do what they do because they enjoy it. which group do you think is good? the ones who are just trying to survive or the ones who enjoy torturing anything they can get their hands on and get off on causing others extreme pain

Arn't these the harmonculus or Wyches? Or am I getteng cofused with the Dark Elves?

So in summary I do agree with The Unending. Don't tar a whole race with the brush of a few people.

'I am a very moral man, yet, I have no morals' basicaly means the the fewer morals you have the less you have to break thus making you more moral. Excuse the exlanation I have difficultys doing written explainations :(

The Unending wrote:Good and Evil are very real.

Good and Evil are philosophical constructs - and as far as that goes I absolutely agree that they are very real. I never said Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were nice guys...though neither did I say they were evil either. It is a subjective interpretation of whetehr or not one considers them good or evil. There is actually a very strong arguement that no one is good or evil, and that only acts can be good or evil. If you want my personal opinion on whether I felt their acts were good or evil, I would certainly say (on the whole) their actions were evil in my opinion.

EDIT: @Thor665: you throw around the word sentient to lightly. we are the only sentient beings on the planet so unless we're engaging in cannibalism I don't think we're roasting sentients creatures flesh on open flames.

That depends entirely upon your chosen definition of sentience. The current debate by scholars over the very concept of animal ethics, I feel, proves that my standpoint holds veracity for the example I used. I thus dispute your dismissal based upon my use of the word. Also, humans have, in some societies, engaged in cannibalism as a regular and non-evil perceived practice within that society.

If you choose to only define humans as sentient, that's fine. The crux of my point was that I believe Dark Eldar to consider all non-Eldar races as far beneath them in an evolutionary and ethical regard scale as you appear to perceive a cow.

Minaith1989 wrote:well, it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if they were churning out babies, i mean they are addicted to never having free time or beer money!

Fixed that for you.

@Thor: Got me! >_>
Anywho, I believe it says somewhere in the DE codex that thier modem is something along the lines of 'Better you than me'. Not the most noble of doctrines, eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Thor: We are not needlessly cruel to 'lower species' for fun. (at least, not mostly)

Dark Eldar Codex, page 2, under the heading "Introduction"

"- capture new victims to be taken back to Commorragh. What happens to them once they arrive is best not contemplated, for if anybody in the Warhammer 40000 universe could be called properly evil, it is the Dark Eldar"

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Dark Eldar Codex, page 2, under the heading "Introduction"

"- capture new victims to be taken back to Commorragh. What happens to them once they arrive is best not contemplated, for if anybody in the Warhammer 40000 universe could be called properly evil, it is the Dark Eldar"

Written from the perspective of the Imperium, or humans... same thing really.

Thor, may I just say that you are the man and that I couldn't have put it better myself.

What it boils down to is that good and evil are RELATIVE terms, and apparently the word RELATIVE hasn't been emphasized enough.

Unending if you truly believe that he is "throwing" the term sentient around too loosely then tell me what makes humans so different from "animals," what makes humans so much better, is it that humans were made in the "image and likeness of some personal anthropomorphic god" and are therefore better (I really can't argue this perspective b/c that would be like "having an argument with a dining room table, and I have no intention of doing that" (Thank you Congressmen Barney Frank )) , or is it that you believe humans are so much more evolved than the "lesser" apes, and therefore more "improved". In this case it is easy to see when looking at the issue from an objective viewpoint humans have not evolved from apes, therefore are apes, and intern "animals". Because when taken from a different perspective, say that of aforementioned "personal and anthropomorphic god" or the greater scape of the universe these "high and mighty" humans are no more magnificent than cockroaches swarming, consuming, defecating, mating, living and dying all the simultaneously on a pile of virulent feces in the darkest, and deepest corner of the bottom of an elevator shaft in the most insignificant building in New York City. If you feel a crushing sense of horror from this, it is only natural as it is a normal "animal" instinct. (objective and normal are also RELATIVE terms as are many of the other word I mentioned)

All this being said I believe this is the most interesting discussion I've ever seen on Dark Eldar , but please remember children that this is just an opinion and interesting, again, is a RELATIVE term

This has been the latest installment of 40k Sesame Street I hope all of you have enjoyed the word of the day (RELATIVE) *cut to shot of rainbow and twinkling sound* The more you learn *roll credits to the tune of Mary had a Little Lamb as the lovable Big Bird is drained of his vital fluids, stripped of his cheery yellow plumage, relieved of his organs and non-desirable tissues, raped with all manner of unhealthy preservatives preservatives, saran-wrapped, shipped to a grocery store where a mother cockroach purchases him after refusing to buy her broodling a box of Poo-Poo puffs for the the 5th time, and returns him to her family of cockroaches to be greedily consumed, then discarded like a pile of dirty laundry to rot away. (actually here is where the metaphor fails as cockroaches are more respectable than humans in that as scavengers utilize every part of the no longer cuddly Big Bird's corpse raher than carelessly discarding so much of it as humans do)

Cheers

Thoughts such as good and evil hardly cross the mind of a DE. The only measurement we CAN give them is by our own standards.

(PS Relatively speaking, the rapist is the goodie and the victim was asking for it. Relatively speaking, people can/should do whatever they want. The theory can kiss my ass in a relative manner. END RANT)

kuro_khan wrote:

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Dark Eldar Codex, page 2, under the heading "Introduction"

"- capture new victims to be taken back to Commorragh. What happens to them once they arrive is best not contemplated, for if anybody in the Warhammer 40000 universe could be called properly evil, it is the Dark Eldar"

Written from the perspective of the Imperium, or humans... same thing really.

My point I should have stated in hindsight is that it's written by JJ & Gavin Thorpe for GW.

GW made 40k, so if they say Dark Eldar are evil, I have to believe them. They created them, they should know.

HOWEVER, I do see the point, the DE, to them, they can do what they do because they are better than everyone else. We humans do that ourselves, we kill things for fun, and because we find them annoying.

But DE tend to stretch out killing things, torturing them, and laugh while doing it. This is why they are evil. If a person tortures and kills anything, they find themselves with jail time at the very least, and we call them evil. Which in this case, make evil an adjective.
Evil (meanins from dictionary.com)
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

DE fill ALL of these deffinitions.

How did this get from Birthrate to Moral High Ground....?

...don't answer that!

On Topic. Come on, what Evil Boss doesn't give their son a promotion for absolutely NO reason? Evil people dote on their kids, the kids then grow up to be totally spoiled and they eventually backstab their siblings or send them off to be gladiators so they can take over the family business of enslaving everything in sight.

They make babies quicker....

I imagine that (being the decadent, pleasure seeking race they are) birth rates are not much of a problem. Life would be harsh for these fellas though...

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:

kuro_khan wrote:

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Dark Eldar Codex, page 2, under the heading "Introduction"

"- capture new victims to be taken back to Commorragh. What happens to them once they arrive is best not contemplated, for if anybody in the Warhammer 40000 universe could be called properly evil, it is the Dark Eldar"

Written from the perspective of the Imperium, or humans... same thing really.

My point I should have stated in hindsight is that it's written by JJ & Gavin Thorpe for GW.

GW made 40k, so if they say Dark Eldar are evil, I have to believe them. They created them, they should know.

HOWEVER, I do see the point, the DE, to them, they can do what they do because they are better than everyone else. We humans do that ourselves, we kill things for fun, and because we find them annoying.

But DE tend to stretch out killing things, torturing them, and laugh while doing it. This is why they are evil. If a person tortures and kills anything, they find themselves with jail time at the very least, and we call them evil. Which in this case, make evil an adjective.
Evil (meanins from dictionary.com)
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

DE fill ALL of these deffinitions.

One word...


Veal

meh? ._.'

Oookay, a little Eldar background first. I'll probably tread some fairly familiar background here, but I should get most of it right.

Long time ago, the Eldar race pretty much ruled the cosmos. But because the Eldar as a race possess that much more psychic potency than humanity, the state of their minds and emotions have a much greater impact on the warp. As they are also that much more sensually acute than humans, they can experience a level of pleasure unimaginable to a human.

Since there were no natural predators about(so to speak), the Eldar race became more and more decadent. Their society became hedonistic, and morally corrupt, where everything any Eldar did was only given over to pursuit of greater stimulation(of whatever kind). Some Eldar, disgusted by this moral decay, went off to live simple lives on planets at the edge of the galaxy. They later became known as the Exodites. Slightly later, all the remaining Eldar that weren't completely given over to self-gratification built the giant craftworlds, and sailed off into space.

Then came what was known as The Fall. All the souls of the remaining Eldar, due to their high psychic potency, began to coalesce in the Warp into the entity known as Slaanesh. In the moment of his birth, Slaanesh drained the souls from all the Eldar at the Eldar Home Worlds, and the area of space known as the Eye of Terror was born there. But it wasn't just limited to there. Slaanesh spread outward briefly, draining the souls from Eldar further, and further away. Some Exodite worlds, and many craftworlds who had not yet fled far enough away were also engulfed.

I'm not too sure how the Dark Eldar survived. But the Dark City of Commorragh is located deep within the Webway itself. As the Webway is outside the physical universe, and safe within the warp, Slaanesh's predations and influence are somewhat weakened there. What was left over from that original decadent population of Eldar inhabited it. However, occupying this new realm did not completely protect them from Slaanesh.

As I've already mentioned, an Eldars soul is that much stronger and more resilient than a humans. When a human dies, their sould folds back into the warp without a murmur, with no consciousness remaining. However, an Eldar soul retains its sentience after death. And these conscious souls are fed upon by Slaanesh, which is truely the ultimate torment for an Eldar. The Eldar, in order to avoid this, carry spirit stones, which absorb their souls after death. The Spirit stones are then placed so as to merge with the infrastructure of a craftworld, so they exist forever in a shadowy half dead existence. However, this is seen as infinitely preferable to being devoured by Slaanesh. I'm not too sure how the Exodites avoid Slaanesh.

The remaining Eldar in Commorragh found an alternative way however. They discovered that by absorbing the souls of others, they could extend their own lives, and thus, not have to die and go to Slaanesh. However, there was a downside to this. The more souls one absorbs, the more one craves souls. Think of it as the most addictive drug in the world. This is known as the Thirst.

'You need to rule? What do you know of needs? You are young, the Thirst has a shallow hold on you. I will tell you of need; a deep unfaltering emptiness that grows larger and more demanding with every passing of the night. You have heard tales of how I consume a hundred souls a day. That is but a morsel to whet my appetite. A hundred times that number die every day to quench my desire, my need. Spirits unnumbered are distilled in agony and torture to the peak of exquisite taste, to fill the chasm of my soul. Do not confuse needs with ambitions'.

To the Dark Eldar, souls have different flavours, and strengths, depending on their lifestyle. A psychically powerful soul will enable them to go longer between needing another, as well as tasting that much better. That's why the Haemonculi exist. By torturing and drugging their victims, they can make ever more flavoursome souls for the more powerful Archons.Other Eldar souls, being that much more potent, are also better 'tasting'. When a powerful Eldar dies in Commorragh, other Dark Eldar quickly absorb what they can of his essence, as it will be richer and more flavoursome than any of the thin souls taken from slaves.

'Many die, and when one of the Masters dies, others quickly gather to feed upon the escaping soul. They fight each other, bite and claw if they have now wepaons, to partake of that precious essence'.

This is why the slave raids are necessary. In order to quench the Thirst, the Dark Eldar NEED fresh souls. They could not survive without them. And the torture is only to make them more palatable.

The way Dark Eldar society is structured is down to the way that the Eldar were before the Fall. They look upon the more primitive races as sub-human, only worthy of amusing them. They are hedonistic and decadent to a T. However, like Slaaneshi cultists, the same sensation, if experienced too much, is dull, and bland. The senses become acclimatised. So they are forced to greater and greater depravities, in order to seek greater stimulation. This is why they are often confused for Slaaneshi worshippers. In reality, they are completely separate, and avoid Slaanesh's attention.

The gladiator arenas are simply an evolution of of the slave trade. The two usually go hand in hand. It's simply lesser races battling for their amusement. There are rarely a lack of Dark Eldar around, if anything, the birthrate is exceptionally high. This is no doubt due to certan 'depravities', that one needs not go into too much detail on.

The Dark Eldar society, whilst cruel, callous, and self-indulgent, actually does have certain rules. 'Assasination, murder, and double dealing are established ways of life to these decadents'. For example, the Incubi are the ultimate bodyguards. They do not change allegiance, cannot be bribed. However, they will inflict whatever cruelties their lord demands. The Cabals themselves are always lead by the most ruthless of individuals, however,a certain amount of tolerance is given to other Eldar(Dark, exodite, regular, or Harlequin). For example, in the Ultramarines trilogy, the leader of the Dark Eldar cabal that was ousted by Asrubael Vect was, after a small amount of torture, released in a spaceship with the remainder of his followers. The Dark Eldar and Eldar will occasionally combine against a threat to them both, and the Dark Eldar regularly get along with Harlequins.

The Dark Eldar society is nothing more than a natural evolution of that society which existed before the fall, only altered by their need to continue taking souls in order to extend their own existence. You could say that it is the ultimately selfish existence, the taking of others lives to extend your own, but it is, at the end of the day, understandable.

Disclaimer: You are all entitled to your own opinions. I may disagree with your opinion but i still respect your right to have one differing from mine. My opinions are usually radical and not poitically correct. Ask your doctor before consuming Norwulf's opinions with your brain thingy. Side effects may include: anger, nausea, vomiting, broken keyboards, and violent spams. Norwulf's opinions are'nt for everyone, consult your doctor on which opinon is right for you.

This is a stab in the dark, and if im wrong, im sorry i dont want to offend you guys. but im guessing Thor665 and Spleenstabba are atheists.

You guys are right for the most part good and evil are kind of subjective. Everyone has their own deffinition of good and evil, usually biased, feeling that they themselves are good, or good enough. And it seems to stem from what ideals they hold and what they believe in.(why does this arguement always pop up on the forums i hang out in?) however, I think it's safe to say that if the majority of observers can look at something and say: "yeah thats evil", then its evil. From most perspectives, (the majority of) the dark eldar are evil. They torture people, steal stuff, murder, rape, destroy, and overall arent very nice. So i think you can stick them in that category.
@thor, ive been around lots of animals and killed a few (I am an avid hunter). Not because im sadistic or cruel but because its a useful survival tool, and I like fresh, tasty meat. I've yet to encounter a non-human creature i could call "sentient". I've seen some really intelligent animals, dolphins, dogs pigs etc. But i dont see any evidence that suggests they think of much beyond, eating,sleeping,reproducing, playing etc. Where as people think of all kinds of abstract things. Ideals, politics, art,warhammer 40k music, religion, etc. things that are'nt tangible or real.

Finally back to topic, (sorry for the rant guys) the dark eldar are dark, and live in the warp. Where the rules of reality err, unreality are different. My guess is they're into some kind of necromancy thing that they use to keep their numbers up. Like infusing captive's souls into dead DE to bring them back.

Norwulf wrote:Disclaimer: You are all entitled to your own opinions. I may disagree with your opinion but i still respect your right to have one differing from mine. My opinions are usually radical and not poitically correct. Ask your doctor before consuming Norwulf's opinions with your brain thingy. Side effects may include: anger, nausea, vomiting, broken keyboards, and violent spams. Norwulf's opinions are'nt for everyone, consult your doctor on which opinon is right for you.

This is a stab in the dark, and if im wrong, im sorry i dont want to offend you guys. but im guessing Thor665 and Spleenstabba are atheists.

You guys are right for the most part good and evil are kind of subjective. Everyone has their own deffinition of good and evil, usually biased, feeling that they themselves are good, or good enough. And it seems to stem from what ideals they hold and what they believe in.(why does this arguement always pop up on the forums i hang out in?) however, I think it's safe to say that if the majority of observers can look at something and say: "yeah thats evil", then its evil. From most perspectives, (the majority of) the dark eldar are evil. They torture people, steal stuff, murder, rape, destroy, and overall arent very nice. So i think you can stick them in that category.
@thor, ive been around lots of animals and killed a few (I am an avid hunter). Not because im sadistic or cruel but because its a useful survival tool, and I like fresh, tasty meat. I've yet to encounter a non-human creature i could call "sentient". I've seen some really intelligent animals, dolphins, dogs pigs etc. But i dont see any evidence that suggests they think of much beyond, eating,sleeping,reproducing, playing etc. Where as people think of all kinds of abstract things. Ideals, politics, art,warhammer 40k music, religion, etc. things that are'nt tangible or real.

Finally back to topic, (sorry for the rant guys) the dark eldar are dark, and live in the warp. Where the rules of reality err, unreality are different. My guess is they're into some kind of necromancy thing that they use to keep their numbers up. Like infusing captive's souls into dead DE to bring them back.

This isnt a nag/ me having ago at you but for the sake of discussion, wouldnt they rather just devour the captives souls? Just a thought

Well from what Ketara just said, (ninja'd me, damn that sharinghan eye!) your probably right.

They could make a cool model around the soul infusing idea though. Did you hear that GW? *hint hint

kuro_khan wrote:

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:

kuro_khan wrote:

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Dark Eldar Codex, page 2, under the heading "Introduction"

"- capture new victims to be taken back to Commorragh. What happens to them once they arrive is best not contemplated, for if anybody in the Warhammer 40000 universe could be called properly evil, it is the Dark Eldar"

Written from the perspective of the Imperium, or humans... same thing really.

My point I should have stated in hindsight is that it's written by JJ & Gavin Thorpe for GW.

GW made 40k, so if they say Dark Eldar are evil, I have to believe them. They created them, they should know.

HOWEVER, I do see the point, the DE, to them, they can do what they do because they are better than everyone else. We humans do that ourselves, we kill things for fun, and because we find them annoying.

But DE tend to stretch out killing things, torturing them, and laugh while doing it. This is why they are evil. If a person tortures and kills anything, they find themselves with jail time at the very least, and we call them evil. Which in this case, make evil an adjective.
Evil (meanins from dictionary.com)
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

DE fill ALL of these deffinitions.

One word...


Veal

Yes, killing life that has only just started is evil. But how does that link to Dark Eldar? Besides the two being evil?
Dark Eldar have loads of babies, but I don't think they know their parents at all.

Norwulf wrote:This is a stab in the dark, and if im wrong, im sorry i dont want to offend you guys. but im guessing Thor665 and Spleenstabba are atheists.

I cannot speak for he who stabs spleens for a living - but I currently frame myself as agnostic.

You guys are right for the most part good and evil are kind of subjective. Everyone has their own deffinition of good and evil, usually biased, feeling that they themselves are good, or good enough. And it seems to stem from what ideals they hold and what they believe in.(why does this arguement always pop up on the forums i hang out in?)

I absolutely agree and you mirror what I am saying. (it pops up because I presume it's a basic fundamental question of the place of humanity in the universe as a moral judge, which is a fascinating conversation)

however, I think it's safe to say that if the majority of observers can look at something and say: "yeah thats evil", then its evil. From most perspectives, (the majority of) the dark eldar are evil. They torture people, steal stuff, murder, rape, destroy, and overall arent very nice. So i think you can stick them in that category.

I agree here too - it's just you need to quantify by what majority you are developing the standard. For instance - if I were to go back in time and gather up a huge pile of Aztecs I could get them to agree that human sacrifice and cannibalism were "good" and should be done. If I were to go back in time to ye bonny England or Spain I could find a time when torture was "good" because it could purge people of the workings of the Devil. I am always mindful of how I choose to define good and evil because in another hundred years or so I could be the one who appears quite silly to the new modern perspective of it. That's why I am so cautious about saying what qualifies as good and/or evil.

{please note this is not to say I condone a given act because it is possible to define it as 'good' or at least morally just. I do have a very strong concept of good and evil within my own life and I do apply it. I just don't accept my (or any other) belief system as a legitimate definition of good and evil and choose the philosophical definition instead.)

@thor, ive been around lots of animals and killed a few (I am an avid hunter). Not because im sadistic or cruel but because its a useful survival tool, and I like fresh, tasty meat. I've yet to encounter a non-human creature i could call "sentient". I've seen some really intelligent animals, dolphins, dogs pigs etc. But i dont see any evidence that suggests they think of much beyond, eating,sleeping,reproducing, playing etc. Where as people think of all kinds of abstract things. Ideals, politics, art,warhammer 40k music, religion, etc. things that are'nt tangible or real.

As I said to the last poster who questioned this - it's fine that you don't want to call them sentient depending upon your definition of sentience. My definition is quite functional and accepted by many philosophical schools of thought. Animals are capable of pleasure, pain, happiness, and sadness, and thus are sentient by multiple definitions. Humans are the only species on the planet (toi the best of my awareness) capable of the higher cognition you described (though it brings in some interesting questions as to what time specifically babies become capable of higher cognition). If you choose to define higher cognition as synonymous with sentience then I would agree with you that animals are not sentient using that definition. That is not the definition I use.

This is not a passing of judgment from me towards those who kill/butcher/whatever animals. I used it as an example to show how a species could decide for survival/practice/desire that they could raise and butcher a supposed 'lesser' species and not necessarily be called 'evil' for doing it in their own definition. Ergo Earthlings are to cows as Dark Eldar are to Earthlings and thus they are not evil unless defined through Earthling perspective.

Hmmm... you give my mind much to chew on.

The sentience arguement is one i have almost weekly with my friends, It's a never ending source of entertainment/arguement, (samething sometimes lol) It seems like everyone has a different definition of sentience.

also, you make a killer point about the aztecs, (forgot about them) by alot of people's standards they were quite evil, where as they considered human sacrifice sacred/ necessary, (i think).

It was religious as the sacrifices were sent to communicate with their gods (if I recall correctly) and was deemed important when they needed to ask for rain or blessings in battle, so it certainly was held as highly important to their survival.

Sentience is, much like good and evil, a philosophical concept at its heart and thus a little hard to quantize. Yes, there are quite a few different schools of thought as to how to define it within philosophical schools. In its most basic scientific sense it simply requires the experience of qualia.

You appear to define it as higher cognition which, while functional, is not a standard definition of any stripe in an absolute sense (one would argue you're discussing shades of consciousness). I'll spare you babble on the mirror test and other such stuff - but it is certainly a fascinating subject. The weekly debates with friends can be quite interesting, I have a couple running with my crowd and you're right, it's always good for heated debate and laughs, and sometimes both at the same time.

The most basic definition of sentience ive heard is: "being able to produce abstract thought, thinking of something beyond survival, or something that builds survival skills." Still that doesnt really fully cover it eh? A complicated subject indeed! In my opinion Humans are the only corporeal beings who can possess sentience. Possibly aliens but i've yet to see any. My opinion is based on my faith rather than anything I can prove. I can kind of see dolphins being sentient, maybe. "So long, and thanks for all the fish." lol

Back to original subject: It seems to me that the DE are'nt exactly abundant in numbers, compared to races like orks, nids tau, humans. Like the eldar they seem to be dying off slowly. Are eldar still propagating? If so probably not as fast as Dark eldar. Do you guys think they're adequately representing it on the tabletop? I've seen some fairly big eldar armies, I havent got to play against DE though, I've only seen one guy bring one into my FLGS.

I play DE fairly frequently and it is certainly possible to field a fairly "swarmy" DE list. (I've even had a discussion with a particularly heretical fellow who uses footsloggin' DE!)

Most classic DE lists tend to involve either a Web Way Portal and/or a lot of Fast Transport vehicles - which I feel adequately showcases their fluff as raiders and surprise attackers.

As some of Gwar!'s lists have shown - a fluffy position as a numerous race does not necessarily translate into a large pile of models upon the table. Overall though I feel the fluff is reasonably supported in the codices and the army builds they create.

Here's something I wrote a while back on the topic....

If morality is objective, that means it has to exist independant of humanity. Therefore you have to say that if all of humanity engaged in nuclear war tomorrow, and wiped ourselves out, morality would still exist. If a race of crab people evolved in a million years from a radioactive wasteland, they would still be bound by the same morals as us.
Once you take the stance that morals are objective though, you make yourself vulnerable to many questions.

For example. If these morals exist objectively, and independantly of humanity, where are they? Morality has no more physical substance than honour, or dignity. The person who believes they are objective must say they are intangible, immaterial, incorporeal. Often, they'll be linked to God. Because God is supposedly infinite, morals must be too. However, since the God of classical theism is a proven logical impossibility, if you tie your idea of morality to him, your argument for objective morality fails along with him.
Plato attempted to tie morality to his idea of the 'Forms', intangible things that could only be perceived by those of great intelligence. However, he failed at the same question as pretty much all objective morality theories.

The question being, 'If it's intangible, prove it's there'.

Just because morality is subjective does not mean a larger system of morality does not exist. Morality evolves from culture, hence you encounter different opinions on areas of morality across the world. However, globalisation, and the steady amalgamation of most human cultures means that the perceived ideas of 'right' and 'wrong' are becoming closer and closer across the world. This steady process has been increased by the domination of certain cultures. When a specific culture dominates a large area of the world, they impose their ideas of morality on it. For example, the Roman Empire pacified and brought order to the territories under it's control, it imposed a system of laws in order to enforce it's morality. Those moralities slowly began to seep into the conquered areas as the norm.

As such, law is taken a general indicator of a larger system of morality. However, not all laws are necessarily formed with morality in mind, and many people will disagree with the specifics, whilst agreeing with the generalities. The generalities in this case being things like, 'you shouldn't hijack cars, or murder people'. The driver doing an extra 5mph over the speed limit on a clear motorway does not consider himself a criminal, although he technically is. He certainly doesn't consider himself in the same boat as a rapist. He knows the difference between doing something he considers to be morally wrong, and breaking the law. The two are not inextricably linked.

As such, law is a general indicator of the morality of a given culture, but it does not dictate the specifics. Those will vary from person to person, and are subjective. As has been seen in this debate thus far already, in the eyes of some, whilst illegal, personal recasting is seen as morally acceptable. In the view of other people, it makes them a criminal. The fact that there are many different views on both sides should in itself, mean that personal recasting is not accepted as one of the generalities, like killing, rape, and shoplifting (all of which just about everyone here seems to agree are reprehensible activities). It seems to fall more into the category of the specific, like doing 5mph over the speed limit, or protesting in Parliament Square.

This larger framework of morality is not objective in itself, it is still subjective. It is decided by the generally accepted consensus of thought by the overwhelming majority, but is still subject to change. For example, apartheid is now agreed upon as being wrong, but head to South Africa, a hundred years ago, and the general consensus would have been that it was the right thing. No part of the system of morality, be it the larger framework, or the smaller specifics is not subject to change. For example, we have soldiers fighting in Afghanistan. Many people now see war as being wrong, and nothing more than mass state sanctioned assassinations. At present, those people are in the minority. In two hundred years, it may be the case that war is seen as barbaric, and morally wrong under any circumstances, as those people in the majority. That's just how the system of morality evolves.

There is no ultimate right or wrong. If you disagree with the generalities of morality, and go around killing people in Los Angeles, the fact is, the majority of people disagree with you, and will enforce their belief on you(in this case, that murderers deserve state execution). What gives them the right to make that decision regarding you? The fact that there are more of them, and they're capable of doing it.

Ketara wrote:However, since the God of classical theism is a proven logical impossibility, if you tie your idea of morality to him, your argument for objective morality fails along with him.

I respectfully disagree. Strongly.
If God is logically impossiple, then what force Holds matter together? How and Who disproved His existance? How did life begin? Where did the gas and energy required for the "big bang" come from? etc. (these are all rhetorical questions, I dont really want to further hijack this thread and get into it).
Since God is thought of to be an intangible being that exists outside of time and space, (much like a being of the warp). His existance cant be disproven, or proven for that matter.

Once someone creates life in a lab, with amino acids, and whatever other chemicals are said to be required. That'll disprove God for me. Until then I hold my ground. You are entitled to believe what you choose however.

back to subject:
so are the Dark eldar slowly going into extinction? It was my understanding that eldar of all types are an endangered species. That seems to indicate a fluff-gameplay contridiction. It would make more sense for eldar and DE to be low model count armies.

THRED EXPLODING SOON HO GAWD.

Can we please get back on topic...

what the hell was the topic again?

Edit: actually, this makes sense now that I think about it

OP wrote:To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

Well, of course not? Why do you think the kids turned out to be soul drinking drug abusing homocidal maniacs! Its because their parents don't love them!

Norwulf wrote:

Ketara wrote:However, since the God of classical theism is a proven logical impossibility, if you tie your idea of morality to him, your argument for objective morality fails along with him.

I respectfully disagree. Strongly.
If God is logically impossiple, then what force Holds matter together? How and Who disproved His existance? How did life begin? Where did the gas and energy required for the "big bang" come from? etc. (these are all rhetorical questions, I dont really want to further hijack this thread and get into it).
Since God is thought of to be an intangible being that exists outside of time and space, (much like a being of the warp). His existance cant be disproven, or proven for that matter.

Once someone creates life in a lab, with amino acids, and whatever other chemicals are said to be required. That'll disprove God for me. Until then I hold my ground. You are entitled to believe what you choose however.

I'm of the opinion that you're not actually in the know as to what the God of classical thiesm consists of. The God of classical theism is a term that refers to the God who is regarded to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. The points you've raised above are irrelevant, when considering the attributes of the God of Classical Theism.

As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

I am not advocating for or against the existence of God as per se, but the God of Classical Theism, with those three attributes is a logical impossibility. This is a fact.

That's not to say a multi-dimensional entity who seems all powerful from our perspective does not exist. Just the God of Classical Theism.

But here's a tip(friendly-like). When arguing for the existance of God , don't say that it cannot be disproven, as any canny verbal opponent will seize on that as a chance to say something like, 'Ah, but you cannot disprove Digimon, or dragons exist! That means that they MUST exist by your logic!'

On topic: The Dark Eldar do not appear to be going into extinction. Whatever losses they take from their own society, raids, and battles seem to be imperceptible, so based on the data available, I would say that their society is remarkably fecund. This could be due to the fact that unlike the Eldar, the Dark Eldar do not represent large slow moving targets(the craftworlds) and are impossible to actually attack. As such, whilst the Eldar lose many soldiers and civilians in running battles trying to defend themselves or alter the future, the only losses the Dark Eldar take are in battles of their choosing. Not only that, but the Dark Eldar abhor large scale engagements, and when faced with stiff opposition, prefer to melt away and attack an easier target. Because they don't lose so many troops, that leaves more Dark Eldar to sire new offspring, meaning that their population should only continue to grow.

Ketara, your starting to sound like Gwar, only with Logic instead of RAW.

Back on topic. (please let it stay there) I'd rather think that population is kind of not really discussed for most of the races, and it isn't really set in stone by the fluff, that way the insane amount of (lets take for example) Tau arimes rolling around in RTTs can be explained....because Tau population is not set in stone. Same for the Dark Eldar. Who's to say Commorragh is their ONLY city?

Because every other Eldar city was obliterated in the Fall. There's only one city in the webway, and that's Commorragh. However, no mention is ever made as to the size of the place. It could be the size of a Hive City, the size of a Space Hulk, or the size of a solar system. Take your pick.

And I'll choose to take that as a compliment.

Ketara wrote:I'm of the opinion that you're not actually in the know as to what the God of classical thiesm consists of. The God of classical theism is a term that refers to the God who is regarded to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. The points you've raised above are irrelevant, when considering the attributes of the God of Classical Theism.
As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

Ya know, I'm not sure, but could'nt one argue that paradoxes only apply in our finite universe. Perhaps there are alternate universes where paradoxes and impossibility are inescapable laws, as physics are for us. Idk that was a good answer on your part. Frankly im stumped by that.

Ketara wrote:On topic: The Dark Eldar do not appear to be going into extinction. Whatever losses they take from their own society, raids, and battles seem to be imperceptible, so based on the data available, I would say that their society is remarkably fecund. This could be due to the fact that unlike the Eldar, the Dark Eldar do not represent large slow moving targets(the craftworlds) and are impossible to actually attack. As such, whilst the Eldar lose many soldiers and civilians in running battles trying to defend themselves or alter the future, the only losses the Dark Eldar take are in battles of their choosing. Not only that, but the Dark Eldar abhor large scale engagements, and when faced with stiff opposition, prefer to melt away and attack an easier target. Because they don't lose so many troops, that leaves more Dark Eldar to sire new offspring, meaning that their population should only continue to grow.

Ok, this helps me understand much better. From what I understand of what you just said here, the DE can reproduce and survive much easier, due to their overall approach to waging war. By fighting only on their own terms and using guerilla hit and run tactics, they can reduce casualties severely! Unless they get caught up in a fight that is overwhelmingly in their opponent's favor. Which it sounds like the dark eldar are fairly good at avoiding these scenarios. hmmm. Maybe the Eldar should take a note from their darker kin's playbook. It sounds like their approach is less efficient. Which to my understanding is more focused on subtley, and manipulation.

Still though, it would make more sense to me if eldar were a low model count army if not DE. They seem to really hurt from each casualty fluff-wise. They're referred to as "the dying" in the 4th e BRB.

How do i fix this quote mess i got goin on here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

starbomber109 wrote:Ketara, your starting to sound like Gwar, only with Logic instead of RAW.

Back on topic. (please let it stay there) I'd rather think that population is kind of not really discussed for most of the races, and it isn't really set in stone by the fluff, that way the insane amount of (lets take for example) Tau arimes rolling around in RTTs can be explained....because Tau population is not set in stone. Same for the Dark Eldar. Who's to say Commorragh is their ONLY city?

fluff does at least hint towards population sometimes tho, the eldar (not DE ketara just explained that) are dying off, trading millions of "lesser" lives for a handful of theiir own. Tyranids are basically without number and inexhaustable, orks are close to nids on the scale, humans number in the billions where as SM and GK are somewhat rare. Necrons, tau and DE are a little more ambiguous. Finally squats are pretty much extinct. lol had to mention the poor squats.

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/20 23:06:00

Post by: Emperors Faithful

Even relatively speaking one would have to say that the DE are evil. They are a minority in the galaxy. Imperium considers them evil, Eldar consider them evil (mabye), Tau would probably consider them evil, in fact most races could consider them to be evil.

When you made that reference to the murderer in LA, could the same thing be applied to the DE?

Reply by: Ketara - click to view full reply 

11029

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/20 23:21:38

Post by: Ketara

Ya know, I'm not sure, but could'nt one argue that paradoxes only apply in our finite universe. Perhaps there are alternate universes where paradoxes and impossibility are inescapable laws, as physics are for us. Idk that was a good answer on your part. Frankly im stumped by that.

As I said, I'm not ruling the possibility of a multi-dimensional entity who seems omnipotent. Just that a God with those attributes actually existing is a paradox. And thank you for the compliment.

Ok, this helps me understand much better. From what I understand of what you just said here, the DE can reproduce and survive much easier, due to their overall approach to waging war. By fighting only on their own terms and using guerilla hit and run tactics, they can reduce casualties severely! Unless they get caught up in a fight that is overwhelmingly in their opponent's favor. Which it sounds like the dark eldar are fairly good at avoiding these scenarios. hmmm. Maybe the Eldar should take a note from their darker kin's playbook. It sounds like their approach is less efficient. Which to my understanding is more focused on subtley, and manipulation.

The Dark Eldar use incredibly fast spaceships to avoid those of other races, and are capable of establishing on site temporary webway gates to make their escape. The Eldar thus far seem to lack that technology(not the spaceships, the gates). The Dark Eldars style is essentially that of a raider. Because they never fight campaigns in the traditional sense, they escape the 'meat grinder'. They take ground and lose it as it suits them, and have an impregnable stronghold to retreat to. The regular Eldar are constricted by the need to wage more traditional warfare over the maiden worlds, craftworlds, etc. They are not less efficent, it's just that the Eldar, due to their own philosophies and culture, are forced to fight wars on the same ground as the lesser races. The Dark Eldar are bound to no such style.

fluff does at least hint towards population sometimes tho, the eldar (not DE ketara just explained that) are dying off, trading millions of "lesser" lives for a handful of theiir own. Tyranids are basically without number and inexhaustable, orks are close to nids on the scale, humans number in the billions where as SM and GK are somewhat rare. Necrons, tau and DE are a little more ambiguous. Finally squats are pretty much extinct. lol had to mention the poor squats.

Population figures are usually written from the Imperial perspective, and as such, all civilised contact is had with Craftworld Eldar. The Exodite and Dark Eldar population figures cannot be estimated, as no human envoy has ever successfully approached Commorragh, and there are too many far flung and unknown Exodite worlds.

Reply by: starbomber109 - click to view full reply 

18213

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/20 23:27:31

Post by: starbomber109

For some reason I keep getting reminded of these quotes. (and I paraphrase)

An infamous pirate wrote:If you go to the cove you will find it a fortress that is nigh impregnable and with ample provisions for a siege. And then you will be sitting in the water outside it going "Oh, if only there was someone here whom I had not killed who could go in there and make the pirates come out"

so it would seem to hold true for the dark eldar, if pressed they can just retreat into their webway and nothing can get to them...

but then again, they are pirates, raiders.

same pirate wrote:Let us consider friends, the cuttlefish....flippacanourious little sausages. Put enough of them together in a tank and they will devour each other without a second thought. So, we could go out there and fight, and maybe a few of us will die, or we could stay here, and half of us will be dead in a month

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/20 23:36:42

Post by: Norwulf

The dark eldar seem to operate similar to the vikings of old. What i ment by the eldar being less efficient, is that if they were to abandon their style of warfare for one more similar to DE, they could receive less casualties. Although as you pointed out, technology and lack of an impenetrable fortress/city thingy, seriously dampens that idea. Sorry eldar looks like you gotta keep makin sacrifces. Hey has anyone ever made an exodite themed army before? or is that basically just biel-tan?

@Ketara specifically: normally i love the challenge of arguing about intangible, unprovable things. But you sir (or maam, dunno) are a Master-debater! all i got to throw at you is blind faith, which normally i can save that for when things get really heated/emotional and begin to quickly devolve into a fist-fight. I salute you sir (or Maam possibly),

Word of the day: "Snackrifice"

Reply by: Warboss Spleenstaba - click to view full reply 

7618

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/20 23:40:49

Post by: Warboss Spleenstaba

I think Thor and Ketara have this right.

@Norwulf

1st I'm not an atheist, far from it in fact, but it's ok as most people assume at I am either an atheist or an agnostic as they assume well if it's not one of these it must be none of these this assumption like most assumptions is not correct but if I must conform to the the unquenchable desire of human nature to simplify, categorize, and classify then I suppose I would say that I am a-religious but rather spiritual, perhaps some form of a gnostic (which is very different from an agnostic deriving from the greek gnosis meaning knowledge so a-gnosis is without knowledge and gnosis is with knowledge) so the only definite term I could classify, simplify, or categorize my self as is a philosopher.

2nd In regards to sentience if you classify, romance, music, religion, language, 40k, building sky scrapers, interacting with one another beyond what is necessary for survival, that this qualifies humans as sentient and other animals as not, what about bower birds who collect blue objects such as glass, paper, feathers and anything else they can find and weave it into an arch used solely for the courtship females, is this so different from getting down on one knee and offering a wedding ring of molded metal and cut stone, for some eagles to mate for life while humans get divorces, some animals to care for their young, where some species of wolf spiders eat their young, just as some humans care for their young, while others drown them one by one in a bath tub. Look at any number of symbiotic relationships in nature, clown fish and sea anemone, certain species of shrimp and fish, cleaning fish and groupers, certain species of birds and wild buffalo, the list of examples goes on and on and I would suggest looking beyond the simple view of the twice aforementioned bottle-nose dolphin. And just b/c they do not emanate human characteristics does not mean they are not sentient. humans try to anthropomorphize everything from god to animals (such as Kermit the frog or characters of the upcoming Fantastic Mr. Fox film) out of fear of that which is different and other.

3rd I believe Dark Eldar are evil, but I am not going to say that "Dark Eldar are evil," all I am saying is that there is a difference. One is an opinion based on a relative term the other is a false statement of fact. Personally I believe that Dark Eldar are evil and they are one of my least favorite races in the game due in part to their to what I deem (and possibly many others) to be evil but that doesn't mean they are.

4th Though I don't necessarily or entirely agree with Ketara's statement of "the God of classical theism is a proven logical impossibility" I believe you contorted his statement when you say "If God is logically impossiple, then what force Holds matter together?" as you missed the very important words: "of classical theism" and not his view or your view of God unless you do subscribe to that of classical theism in which case again there's not much I can say about that.

And just b/c the majority say something doesn't mean it is fact. As it was plainly seen when years ago everyone believe that the sun revolved around the earth and killed Galileo for his idea of a heliocentric universe as they deemed it "evil", but now we can see that a geocentric universe isn't fact even though the majority belived so and that Galileo wasn't evil.

Reply by: starbomber109 - click to view full reply 

18213

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/20 23:43:56

Post by: starbomber109

(scratch that, it was a stupid question)

Reply by: Warboss Spleenstaba - click to view full reply 

7618

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/20 23:45:34

Post by: Warboss Spleenstaba

oops I missed some posts sry some of my points have already been addressed.

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 00:02:52

Post by: Norwulf

@Spleenstabba:
1) like i said it was a stab in the dark, i hope i didnt offend you. I just notice certain themes in people's views that are similar to others. You and thor seem to think similarly to some of my athiest friends.
2)i mainly mentioned dolphins because i like the "hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" reference it opened up lol. But i dont think i need to reiterate my views on sentience. To each his own.
3)as far as majority rule, im usually not in agreement with the majority, however i think ideals like good and evil have common themes everyone can agree on, IE almost no one feels rape is'nt evil.
4) I do believe God is Omnipotent, omniprescent, omnibenevolent etc. but really this is more of a "feel" kinda thing, rather than something i can prove. If i could prove it, it would be causing quite a stir lol. That and like i said Ketara's got me between a rock and a hard spot, I'm still pondering the rock deal! lol

Im trying to stay on topic i swear guys! So why is it DE have more advanced tech than regular eldar? or am i misinterpreting this?

Reply by: starbomber109 - click to view full reply 

18213

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 00:07:48

Post by: starbomber109

I don't think it's so much that Dark Eldar and Eldar are technologically far apart. They have similar tech that can create large creatures out of wraithbone (Talos and Wraithlord) They use nearly identical guns, and their armor is just about the same (actually scratch that last bit lol, I just looked up a warrior's armor save D: ). The only way they are REALLY different it seems is in how much they can use "the webway"

Think of the webway like, the internet. Some parts of it can be got onto by anyone who happens to have a computer, other bits require passwords, specialized computers and programs, ect. The Eldar still have access to the 'free' parts of the webway (warp spiders use it to jump in and out of combat) while the Dark Eldar have access to the more specialized bits (via the Webway portal device)

So it's not that either one has more tech than the other, they just have different tech.

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 00:12:32

Post by: Norwulf

OK, gotchya. so can the webway be hacked possibly? not literally but is it possible to stumble upon corroughmha? (man spelling fail fer sure!)

Reply by: Ketara - click to view full reply 

11029

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 00:14:44

Post by: Ketara

Both regular Eldar and Dark Eldar tech have evolved from the same base, that is to say, that of the Eldar empire from long ago.

However, their technologies have since evolved independantly due to the circumstances of each culture.

For example, Dark Eldar weaponry is designed to cause maximum pain. Regular splinter rifles shoot shards of sharpened metal, soaked in poison, as opposed to the Eldar shuriken rifles. They've also developed many technologies based around torture, and soul stealing, such as the crucible of malediction, which has tormented psyker souls sealed into it. The case of the webway gate is that it was probably designed independantly of the Eldar, as the Dark Eldar rely on the webway that much more for their existance.

The technology is not more complex, it simply evolved down different routes.

And as for the religous side, I have plenty more paradoxes like that. It's the downside to philosophical training. I must say though sir, I am impressed that you admit you can't answer it straight off in a dignified way. Most theists usually bluster nonsense instead. My respect for you has increased tenfold.

EDIT:

Think of the webway like, the internet. Some parts of it can be got onto by anyone who happens to have a computer, other bits require passwords, specialized computers and programs, ect. The Eldar still have access to the 'free' parts of the webway (warp spiders use it to jump in and out of combat) while the Dark Eldar have access to the more specialized bits (via the Webway portal device)

The Harlequins are the only ones who truly understand the webway. I presume they aided the Dark Eldar with the development of their webway tech.

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 00:44:19

Post by: Norwulf

Ketara wrote:And as for the religous side, I have plenty more paradoxes like that. It's the downside to philosophical training. I must say though sir, I am impressed that you admit you can't answer it straight off in a dignified way. Most theists usually bluster nonsense instead. My respect for you has increased tenfold.

The Harlequins are the only ones who truly understand the webway. I presume they aided the Dark Eldar with the development of their webway tech.

Well, since Most of my friends are either athiest or agnostic and all of em tend to be liberally minded, where as I'm the polar opposite of that, not to mention we all love arguing to kill time for some reason. I've learned to pick my battles carefully. Any good poker player knows when to fold em. In the past couple years i've learned it's best to give credit where credit is due when people make a good point, and concede defeat when defeated. That and now i can mull over the things you said, in my mind for a while challenging myself to come up with a logical answer. Me blundering nonsense just hurts Christian right wing wack-jobs everywhere! I must consider the plight of my people lol. Finally, as long as people respect my right to opinion, I happily return the favor.


Anyhoo, what happens when harlequins die? doesnt mention it on lex. Damn Ketara, Your a fountain of eldar fluff. I'd say my knowledge on them has double if not more so today.

Reply by: Warboss Spleenstaba - click to view full reply 

7618

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 00:48:34

Post by: Warboss Spleenstaba

@Norwulf don't worry you didn't offend me, I'm used to it by now, and I truly appreciate the concern that you had
and on your comment "To each his own", that's exactly the point I've been trying to make.

"And as for the religous side, I have plenty more paradoxes like that. It's the downside to philosophical training. I must say though sir, I am impressed that you admit you can't answer it straight off in a dignified way. Most theists usually bluster nonsense instead. My respect for you has increased tenfold."

Agreed and my respects as well.

Ok now I must say this I love discussions on Necron and Dark Eldar b/c as they have received so little love from GW they have so much potential for something new and different from the current norm of 40k and their mystery is what makes is them so damn interesting.

In regards to making Dark Eldar cooler, more apealing and therefore eventually more popular which is what I think they really need, they should take a look at the latest Dark Elf armybook, as someone who hates all things dark elves (some people hate dwarves or daemons I hate dark elves and ogres (that's in anything sci-fi or fantasy not just warhammer related) was amazed with the recent codex and even found stuff that looks cool (maybe some of this stuff I'm going to mention isn't as new as I thought but I just haven't seen it) The Dark Eldar armor in the 5th ed rule book looks infinitely better than what they have now and I think the new models should take a note from the Black Guard armor of the dark elves, making them more aesthetically pleasing is a huge step in making them more popular. warhammer online has also given me some good ideas. For example I always imagined dark eldar ships to look similar to this: http://images.mmosite.com/photo/2008/02/20/warhammers3788m04XQ36.jpg rather than what they have now:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1060031&prodId=prod1101797. Ik this is somewhat off topic but I think it needs to be brought up when talking about Dark Eldar damn they need a new codex and even though I hate them if I like the enough I may be even tempted to play them lol.

Reply by: Ketara - click to view full reply 

11029

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 00:53:24

Post by: Ketara

I think it's assumed that the Laughing God watches over them(except for the Harlequin that's chosen to play the role of Slaanesh in their little troupe. He gets his soul nommed). Don't quote me on that one though.

I've actually just uncovered a direct quote negating somehting I said earlier. The Dark Eldar DO possess more than one city! '....mighty Dark Eldar cities and nests of wasp like Psychneuein infest it's furthest reaches...'

That means that the Dark Eldar are actually multiplying and building more places to live in the Webway!

I've also found some fluff on the Exodites with regards to death. It appears they too wear spirit stones, and Exodite Worlds have massive barrows underground where their spirit stones are broken on altars after death. The Exodite spirit then becomes part of something called a 'World Spirit'. There's more detail on that in the Eldar codex.

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 01:06:28

Post by: Norwulf

Ketara wrote:
That means that the Dark Eldar are actually multiplying and building more places to live in the Webway!

I've also found some fluff on the Exodites with regards to death. It appears they too wear spirit stones, and Exodite Worlds have massive barrows underground where their spirit stones are broken on altars after death. The Exodite spirit then becomes part of something called a 'World Spirit'. There's more detail on that in the Eldar codex.

The first part here really plays into GW making a new DE codex, perhaps some new models for em? *cough cough HACK cough GW snatch this up! Cough*

The "world spirit" part is very elfin. I like that.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 01:58:27

Post by: Thor665

Ketara wrote:As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

For the record - the are a few correct answers in defense of Theism to the rock question. They basically can be summed up as thus;

Remember that omnipotence is 'infinite power' and not the ability to 'do 'anything'. God Himself is open and clear about His limitations (for instance He cannot lie or commit sin). God also cannot, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore He cannot make a rock He cannot lift, because He is infinite and it is not possible to make a material object infinitely big enough to resist the ultimate infinite of God.

It is the same reason He cannot make a round triangle - it is logically impossible to do this irrespective of one's omnipotent resources of power. He probably could choose to abolish all current natural laws and redefine them so as to create a world where the paradox is no longer a paradox, but He would not choose to do this due to his omnibenevolance. Neither paradox precludes the possible existence of a supreme being.

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 02:30:07

Post by: Norwulf

Thor665 wrote:

Ketara wrote:As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

For the record - the are a few correct answers in defense of Theism to the rock question. They basically can be summed up as thus;

Remember that omnipotence is 'infinite power' and not the ability to 'do 'anything'. God Himself is open and clear about His limitations (for instance He cannot lie or commit sin). God also cannot, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore He cannot make a rock He cannot lift, because He is infinite and it is not possible to make a material object infinitely big enough to resist the ultimate infinite of God.

It is the same reason He cannot make a round triangle - it is logically impossible to do this irrespective of one's omnipotent resources of power. He probably could choose to abolish all current natural laws and redefine them so as to create a world where the paradox is no longer a paradox, but He would not choose to do this due to his omnibenevolance. Neither paradox precludes the possible existence of a supreme being.

hmmm, couldnt have put it better myself.

Reply by: Ketara - click to view full reply 

11029

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 10:51:09

Post by: Ketara

Thor665 wrote:

Ketara wrote:As to who disproved the God of Classsical Theism being logically impossible, I can do that right here and now. Can the God of classical Theism make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Answer: He cannot, as either yes or no results in him being unable to do something, and therefore, not being omnipotent(all powerful). This is just one of countless dozens of similar paradoxes.

For the record - the are a few correct answers in defense of Theism to the rock question. They basically can be summed up as thus;

Remember that omnipotence is 'infinite power' and not the ability to 'do 'anything'. God Himself is open and clear about His limitations (for instance He cannot lie or commit sin). God also cannot, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore He cannot make a rock He cannot lift, because He is infinite and it is not possible to make a material object infinitely big enough to resist the ultimate infinite of God.

It is the same reason He cannot make a round triangle - it is logically impossible to do this irrespective of one's omnipotent resources of power. He probably could choose to abolish all current natural laws and redefine them so as to create a world where the paradox is no longer a paradox, but He would not choose to do this due to his omnibenevolance. Neither paradox precludes the possible existence of a supreme being.

Aha! The traditional comeback. However, rather than getting into the 4 different levels of omnipotence, and making this thread ridiculously complex, I'll cede that one, and instead propose a few more.

-If God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent, then how can his creations be anything less than "All Good", "All Powerful", and "All Loving". If they are less than this, how can he be said to be Omnibenevolent?

-If God is Omnibenevolent and Omnipotent, being able to single handedly create all possible "good" states, then how can he withhold that power from us?

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 11:31:57

Post by: Emperors Faithful

If there is good, then there MUST be evil. For without the balance between these two there only 'is'.

(Am I just blustering or what? ^.^)

Anywho, it seems strange that people think of god as a 'person'. Would he not be more akin to a force?
(Karma = Gravity???)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, where does it mention that DE are 'growing'?

Reply by: kuro_khan - click to view full reply 

2232

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 14:25:00

Post by: kuro_khan

Emperors Faithful wrote:
BTW, where does it mention that DE are 'growing'?

Of course DE are growing, Hell (Commoragh) is exothermic.

Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, We postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave.

Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. Two options exist:

If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.
If hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.
So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...Thus, hell is exothermic."

Reply by: Obsidian - click to view full reply 

19482

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 14:35:03

Post by: Obsidian

Prediction as to when this thread will be locked?

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 16:03:39

Post by: Thor665

Ketara wrote:Aha! The traditional comeback. However, rather than getting into the 4 different levels of omnipotence, and making this thread ridiculously complex, I'll cede that one, and instead propose a few more.

-If God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent, then how can his creations be anything less than "All Good", "All Powerful", and "All Loving". If they are less than this, how can he be said to be Omnibenevolent?

-If God is Omnibenevolent and Omnipotent, being able to single handedly create all possible "good" states, then how can he withhold that power from us?

If you're familiar with the traditional comeback above then I suspect you are equally familiar with the traditional comeback to the Epicurean Paradox. Needless to say - there's a correct Theism answer to these as well. There's a reason that people still believe in the God of Classical Theism and that's because their belief system has not had a question proposed to it that they could not answer within the framework of that belief system.

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 16:23:34

Post by: Norwulf

kuro_khan wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
BTW, where does it mention that DE are 'growing'?

Of course DE are growing, Hell (Commoragh) is exothermic.

Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, We postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave.

Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. Two options exist:

If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.
If hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.
So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...Thus, hell is exothermic."

ROFL!! So wait, your saying Commorragh is hell? and that they could be expecting cold weather soon? or really hot weather? This "Theresa" may have just successfully destroyed the dark eldar!! (unless they start stocking up on air conditioners)

@Ketara: I think giving your creations free will to choose between benevolence and manevolence is the ultimate in omnibenevolence. (if that makes any sense to anyone other than me)

Reply by: Ketara - click to view full reply 

11029

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 18:08:55

Post by: Ketara

Thor665 wrote:

Ketara wrote:Aha! The traditional comeback. However, rather than getting into the 4 different levels of omnipotence, and making this thread ridiculously complex, I'll cede that one, and instead propose a few more.

-If God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent, then how can his creations be anything less than "All Good", "All Powerful", and "All Loving". If they are less than this, how can he be said to be Omnibenevolent?

-If God is Omnibenevolent and Omnipotent, being able to single handedly create all possible "good" states, then how can he withhold that power from us?

If you're familiar with the traditional comeback above then I suspect you are equally familiar with the traditional comeback to the Epicurean Paradox. Needless to say - there's a correct Theism answer to these as well. There's a reason that people still believe in the God of Classical Theism and that's because their belief system has not had a question proposed to it that they could not answer within the framework of that belief system.

Unfortunately, some of the traditional comebacks are not always so straightforward, and it's a matter of opinion as to whether they answer the question or not. But again, for complexities sake, I'd rather not get into a long winded debate of that variety. However, there has always been one ultimate question about the existence of God which Theism has yet to answer satisfactorily, and it is not one the relies on clever wordplay.

If God is intangible, and incorporeal, prove he exists. And by proof, definitive proof is required, such as a live demonstration of his omnipotence etc. Telling me that the world, my existence, and so on is a mark of his omnipotence is not a viable answer. Give me a reason that I cannot use to prove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti monster.

And it says that there are multiple Dark Eldar cities in the Eldar Codex. As Commorragh was initially the only city, if there are now more cities, it must follow that there must now be more people in order to poulate them. Hence, the Dark Eldar population is on the increase.

Thor, I'm intrigued enough to enquire as to where you studied philosophy? Or is it just a passing interest of yours?

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/21 18:25:22

Post by: Thor665

I took it to PM to spare Obsidian's sensibilities via the focus of the thread.

As far as philosophy - self taught and self entertained (outside of one high school course). It's an amazing topic and infinite fun to read about and study.

Reply by: gardeth - click to view full reply 

8933

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/22 22:27:11

Post by: gardeth

FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER FOR THE WIN!!!!!

How bout we stop talking about some imaginary sky daddy and get back to talking about some evil imaginary space elves!?!

I for one would like to know if wyches get maternity leave. And if crack babies are bad, what would combat drugs do? Are they born ninjas?

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/22 23:35:57

Post by: Norwulf

gardeth wrote:FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER FOR THE WIN!!!!!

How bout we stop talking about some imaginary sky daddy and get back to talking about some evil imaginary space elves!?!

I for one would like to know if wyches get maternity leave. And if crack babies are bad, what would combat drugs do? Are they born ninjas?

Yes, they are born ninjas, thats what happened to me. Seeing as how the dark eldar are especially cruel, i bet they get.... UNPAID maternity leave! MUHUHAHAHAAA

Reply by: kuro_khan - click to view full reply 

2232

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 09:33:53

Post by: kuro_khan

I just accidently the entire Dark Eldar race.

Reply by: Drk_Oblitr8r - click to view full reply 

17718

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 10:07:54

Post by: Drk_Oblitr8r

Ok, I'm going to answer this question specifically

Deathbot wrote:How do the Dark Eldar maintain their population? They are taking constant casualties from their raids, not to mention the 24/7 backstabbing and murdering that goes on in their society. To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

Firstly, when a mummy DE and a daddy DE meet randomly. . And a DE baby is born. This DE baby would be raised by mummy DE for a time, but not for long, as she either dies in battle, dies from treachery or abandons baby for assorted reasons, such as fighting or another DE baby.

The DE baby would be given to, or be part of because of mummy DE a cult/kabal and would pick up a simple weapon, such as a slightshot, or IG Las. And learn how to use it.

The DE baby would eventually grow to maturity, and go fight, or make more DE baby.

That, or DE baby come in litters. The rest would be the same.

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 11:36:31

Post by: Norwulf

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
That, or DE baby come in litters. The rest would be the same.

Someone did say they like rabbits, so that makes sense.

Reply by: Drk_Oblitr8r - click to view full reply 

17718

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 12:33:03

Post by: Drk_Oblitr8r

Norwulf wrote:

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
That, or DE baby come in litters. The rest would be the same.

Someone did say they like rabbits, so that makes sense.

Don't cats have more babies than rabbits?

I just checked, Rabbits usually have 12-13 . Much more than cats, by about 9... "OTL

12-13 DE baby per month is good, and they don't all have to have the same father, score for DE mummy

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 12:33:56

Post by: Emperors Faithful

So probably 3 are going to reach maturity if they're lucky...

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 12:34:42

Post by: Norwulf

Fun fact: rabbits have 2 widdly-doos. (just checked, i was thinkin sharks)

Maybe that's how the DE are keepin their numbers up?

Reply by: labmouse42 - click to view full reply 

1943

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 18:39:42

Post by: labmouse42

Deathbot wrote:How do the Dark Eldar maintain their population? They are taking constant casualties from their raids, not to mention the 24/7 backstabbing and murdering that goes on in their society. To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

That same problem exists with the dark elves of the D&D world. If they are killing eachother every day, and it takes decades for a child to grow to maturity, then the race goes extinct very quickly.

In the D&D world, it means that the resurrection buisness does very well.

In the 40k universe, it means that the raids and murderous backstabbing are a lot less common than one would think. After all, they do need eachother to get more slaves.

Reply by: Emperors Faithful - click to view full reply 

15667

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/23 22:37:14

Post by: Emperors Faithful

So mabye there's a in-clan type program? Where the kids are raised to be loyal to that particular kabal?

Reply by: Norwulf - click to view full reply 

20022

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/24 00:11:43

Post by: Norwulf

labmouse42 wrote:

Deathbot wrote:How do the Dark Eldar maintain their population? They are taking constant casualties from their raids, not to mention the 24/7 backstabbing and murdering that goes on in their society. To make up for this, they would require an enormous birthrate and somehow I can't see them staying home to raise the kids.

That same problem exists with the dark elves of the D&D world. If they are killing eachother every day, and it takes decades for a child to grow to maturity, then the race goes extinct very quickly.

In the D&D world, it means that the resurrection buisness does very well.

In the 40k universe, it means that the raids and murderous backstabbing are a lot less common than one would think. After all, they do need eachother to get more slaves.

I had thought maybe there was something similar goin on in 40k.

Reply by: IronChaos - click to view full reply 

20646

Dark Eldar Population @ 2009/09/28 20:30:16

Post by: IronChaos

ok, I don't want to know how much Dark Eldars f*** on their secret city, but they may be lots of people.