18011
Post by: Ardensfax
Hi, I'm running a quick survey.
Who do you think is the most powerful close-combat character in the game?
It doesn't need to be a Named Character, (although it quite probably will be). He can be tooled up however you like, however he must be an HQ independant character, who is NOT a monstrous creature (as that would make the contest a bit boring.).
He can have whatever wargear, and you can take into account everything to do with his close-combat abilities (IE: You don't just have to look at Tigurius's statline, take things like Might of Ancients into consideration, too.)
The question is, who do you think? Below the dotted line, I'll make a list of all the nominations. The one with the most votes at any one time is officially the 'Ardest! Have fun!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Da killy list: (The number in brackets = the number of votes the person has.)
Kharn the Betrayer (5)
Lucius the Eternal (2)
Archon + Jetbike + lots of killy stuff (7)
Logan Grimnar (2)
Marneus Calgar (1)
Abaddon (8)
Karandras (2)
Old Zogwort (1)
Canis Wolfborn (1)
Lysander (1)
Mephiston (1)
Lukas the Trickster (1)
Archite (2)
Tooled-up Broodlord (3)
Ghazghkull Thraka (6)
Skulltaker in Chariot (3)
Grey Knight Grandmaster (1)
Prince Yriel (1)
One Grot (?) (1) ...Presumably sitting in the back of a supa-rokkit, perhaps?
------------------------------------
Current Leader:
Abaddon the Despoiler
-----------------------------------
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Post by: wyomingfox
Sorry, but when I first read your thread's title, I figured this was a Slanesh themed discusion
18011
Post by: Ardensfax
Hmm, I take your point. Duly edited.
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Post by: arachnid
as a csm player i'd nominate kharn and lucius.
Kharn might be brutal, lucius can potentially be devastating thanks to the armor.
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Post by: Fexor
I find your survey a little skewed. I mean you've pretty much eliminated Tyranids from the running by not allowing MC HQ choices. I mean the Hive Tyrant is an amazing CC HQ choice if tooled properly. The only other real option for the Tyranids in this survey would be the Broodlord and if you compared them stat to stat and upgrade to upgrade the Hive Tyrant just beats him hands down, not to mention the option of having a Tyrant Guard which further increases the Tyrants lethality by comparison.
But then again this is just my opinion and I enjoy my 'Nids so I'm partial to them, heh.
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Post by: Clthomps
A archon on a jet bike with animus vitae, combatdrugs, shadowfield, punisher, tormentor helm, and a trophy rack is pretty stacked.
Ws 8, Str 6, T4, 5 power weapon attacks without the charge, Init 7, Leadership 10, and a 2+ invuln save. Oh and he rerolls misses and strikes first if you want to chance some drugs
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
Marneus Calgar and Logan Grimnar are both pretty high up on the bad ass tree although Calgar probably seals it with his re-rolls and extra wound.
A Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with Saga of the Bear, Saga of the warrior born, belt of russ, frost blade and some other cc weapon, wolf tooth necklace and runic armour is pretty damn hard core. WS6, BS5, Str6, T5, A6 without the charge, Init5, W3, Sv 2+/4++, Eternal Warrior, ignores armour saves, hits anything in the game on a 3+ regardless of weapon skill and however many models he kills is added to his attack characteristic next round potentially giving him an exponentially increasing number of attacks. So if he chews up enough ork boyz for 2 or 3 rounds he can charge pretty much any other IC and have a decent chance of killing him.
Someone mentioned Kharn and Lucius but obviously the hardest character from the Chaos Dex is Abaddon. Drachnyen for the win.
Luckas the trickster isn't technically an IC but he can theoretically kill any other model anyone submits for this contest provided he dies first.
Mephiston from BA lacks an invulnerable which sucks but otherwise is an absolute beast.
GK Grandmasters are very tasty. I'm not up on the wargear right now and don't have the codex with me but potentially they can rock a 2+/4++ save and a str6 force weapon with a WS of 6 I believe? And in their off hand they can carry a psy-cannon which will kill a tooled up archon with shadowfield very easily.
A Warboss on bike probably isn't as nasty as some of these but is respectable nonetheless. With a bike, cybork, attack squig, power klaw and your choice of kombi-shoota to taste they get WS5, BS2, Str10, T6, Init4 (but obviously striking last due to pk), A5 without the charge, W3, Sv4+/5++ and an always on 4+cover save. Plus a twin-linked str 5 assault 3 18" gun and the ability to turbo-boost. He's basically a fast small monstrous creature.
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Post by: Archonate
Clthomps wrote:A archon on a jet bike with animus vitae, combatdrugs, shadowfield, punisher, tormentor helm, and a trophy rack is pretty stacked.
Ws 8, Str 6, T4, 5 power weapon attacks without the charge, Init 7, Leadership 10, and a 2+ invuln save. Oh and he rerolls misses and strikes first if you want to chance some drugs
Animus Vitae + Jetbike + Punisher + Drugs = Str 7, if you need to chance more drugs. Striking first isn't usually a problem with Init 7, but should you need to...
13250
Post by: Lord of battles
Logan Grimnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!
12157
Post by: DarkHound
For points effeciency: Kharn. Hands down. He doesn't cost more than a regular HQ but never misses (literally) and is more than able to kill anything in the game (even Titans).
For death deeling, regardless of points, that Archon sounds juicy. Actually, he is only 190, so it isn't bad.
18011
Post by: Ardensfax
In reply to Fexor, should you allow MCs, it'd basically be Bloodthirsters, or Hive Tyrants, but probably the Nightbringer. There are far more 'normal' characters, thus making it a much more interesting discussion.
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Post by: Boss 'eadbreaka
Abbadon is pretty kick ass in battle
14070
Post by: SagesStone
This should be a poll.
I think Grimnar would win, but Calgar might as well.
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Post by: Destroyer
Nightbringer hands down.
And if you say that he isn't or that he is a MC so it doesn't count...he will just bend reality so he does.
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Post by: statu
Although he doesn't have a Invulnerable save, Karandras is a hard CC character, 6/7 attacks, I, WS and BS7. He may not have the greatest Strength and toughness, but everywhere else he's hard
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Post by: SagesStone
Yeah, I change my vote to the Nightbringer seeing as we seem to be able to add him to the list.
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Post by: Flashman
Isn't a Bloodthirster pretty handy in CC?
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Post by: Grimpost
bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
Luckas the trickster isn't technically an IC but he can theoretically kill any other model anyone submits for this contest provided he dies first.
Wouldn't he win if they die first?
I get what you mean, just thought the wording was funny.
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Post by: Zid
Abaddon hands down.
9777
Post by: A-P
Kharn. He can chop anything to little pieces and doesn´t come with a prohibitive point cost. Abaddon is a close contender but has that problem of controlling his Deamon weapon ( plus is more costly and can´t sweep adv. ).
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Post by: Frenzied Potato
Old Zogwurt with his curse
Awww Lucius the Squig, Kahrn the piggy!
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Post by: mal
archon/dracon if we're talking points value; now there's something to discuss....
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Post by: Iago
my vote is for the archon. On the JB, as long as that 2+ invul save keeps going, he is a beast.
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Post by: extermikator
I'm gonna say Canis Wolfborn. I mean, I can see why people are saying Grimnar, but having as many attacks as there are men around you? I see that as pretty damn immense.
EX
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Post by: karimabuseer
Abaddon.He could seriously take anything which has been stated before. Second is Grimnar. But Abaddon would own him. Abaddons stats:
Ws-7
bs-5
S-8
T-5
W-4
I-6
A-4+D6
He has tda, a 4+ Invun, is fearless, is a teleport homer, re-rolls wounds, and ignores instant death. He's hardcore.
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Post by: olympia
+1 Abaddon
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Post by: IronChaos
May be Khârn
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Post by: karimabuseer
4 abaddon votes so far....also, ahriman is pretty handy with psychic powers, as is eldrad. Too bad kharn ignores :(
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Post by: Augustus
Lysander
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Post by: CajunMan550
Ya just on pure stats not cost effeciency Abbadon is the best a Daemon weapon with base 4 attacks and and S8? I'll take 8. Also the ability yo reroll wounds and being WS like 6 or 7
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Post by: Mannahnin
Bravelybravesirrobin gave a great summary of the hardest. Someone should run the math for the fully-tricked-out archon, abbadon, and that tooled-up Wolf Lord. Against one another and against squads. They’re my contenders.
Honorable mentions go to the Ork warboss, Kharne, and the GK Grandmaster for how great they are for an affordable price tag. Ork Warboss gets extra credit for his mobility. GK for his shooting and LD10 table-wide psychic hood.
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Post by: Augustus
EDIT {Abadon} Doesn't hurt tanks, or dreadnoughts though... Only good vs infantry
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Post by: karimabuseer
Augustus wrote:EDIT {Abadon} Doesn't hurt tanks, or dreadnoughts though... Only good vs infantry
He's strength 8 with a possibility of 11 attacks (on the charge). He's the best non- mc special character for taking out tanks (with the exception of kharn and ghazgull).
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Does Marbo get an underdog bonus? Being a joe-shmoe guardsman and taking out squads of space marines single-handed? That is seems bad-ass to me.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Marbo, Straken, and Snikrot are worthy of respect as lesser badasses.
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Post by: WarmasterScott
There is a lot of beats out there. Kharn, Abaddon, Yriel, Avatar, Calgar, Grimmar, Ahriman, Thraka, Dante, etc to name a few. I mean it's a hard comparison to compare close combat of eldar to the sm. They're style is different, but yriel wounding on 2+ and having str 9 against vehicles is hard to ignore. Abaddon is a solo king of ass kickery though.
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Post by: Goliath
Lukas?
If he wins, he wins
If he loses then they die as well, so he wins
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Post by: DeathTyrant
I'm going to vote for Mephiston, purely because I think he is an awesome character. Plus he is pretty beastly in CC.
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
I don't see why everyone keeps saying Logan Grimnar. I mean don't get me wrong he is an absolute beast but he loses easily and hard to some of the other characters on this list. Calgar and Abaddon would both wipe the flaw with him, He's only got 3 wounds and although he has 5 attacks it's a choice between swinging first and wounding on 3's or swinging last/same time and wounding on 2's. No re-rolls but he will hit on 3's. Calgar will be hitting on 4's, wounding 2's with re-rolls and has an extra wound. abaddon will be hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's and probably have more attacks.
In fact I think my homebrew wolf lord I listed can beat him. Regardless of who charges they have counter-attack so Grimnar gets 6 and my wolf lord gets 7. since Grimnar can't instant-kill my wolf lord due to T5 and eternal warrior he'll opt to swing his axe at init 5 str 5.
so my wolf lord gets 7 attacks, 4.7 hits (on3's), 3.92 wounds (on2's), Logan saves half so 1.96 wounds, call it 2.
Logan does 6 attacks, 4 hit (on 3's), 2 wounds (on 4's), my wolf lord saves half so 1 wound.
If Logan switches to his p-fist then things still aren't much better. 6 attacks, 4 hit, 3.4 wounds, half saved so 1.7 wounds, call it 2.
My homebrew wolf lord has a slight edge regardless as he will always have more attacks than grimnar and always wound on 2's. Plus with saga of the warrior born he can theoretically expand his number of attacks by attacking weaker targets in previous turns and then plow into Grimnar. If we give him a not impossible to achieve 10 attacks (only requires that I kill 3 ordinary infantry models) and then charge/counter attack
10 attacks, 7.7 hit, 6.42 wound, half saved so 3.21 wounds and Logan is dead.
I think it really comes down to Calgar, my homebrew wolf lord, Abaddon, that awesome archon and possibly kharn. I don't have the rules and stats for kharn and Abaddon on me. Would anyone be interested in seeing how that stacks up?
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Post by: DarkHound
Abaddon splatters Kharn before he gets to swing. Unless Kharn has the charge, then Abaddon splatters him as Kharn puts 2-3 wounds on.
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
DarkHound wrote:Abaddon splatters Kharn before he gets to swing. Unless Kharn has the charge, then Abaddon splatters him as Kharn puts 2-3 wounds on.
Now how do the following stack up
Abaddon - Calgar
Abaddon - Archon
Abaddon - wolf lord
Calgar - Wolf lord
Calgar - archon
Calgar - kharn
Wolf lord - kharn
Wolf lord - archon
Archon kharn
I can run Calgar/Wolf Lord off the top of my head but not any of the others.
Wolf Lord charges - 7 attacks, 4.7 hits (on3's), 3.92 wounds (on2's), Calgar saves half so 1.96 wounds, call it 2
Calgar gets 5 attacks I believe? Hits on 3's so 4.5 hit, 4.125 wound, half saved so call it 2 wounds
Next turn wolf lord does 1.7 wounds so likely he kills Calgar before Calgar strikes. However this is a very, very close match-up. Calgar will almost certainly kill my wolf lord in 2 turns but my wolf lord has decent odds of killing Calgar before he can.
If Calgar charges then my wolf lord still does 1.96 wounds in the first round (assuming he passed counter-attack) but Calgar does more like 2.4 wounds lending the edge to him as he can come close to slaying my lord in one round.
So how about if I get my (reasonable) 10 attacks instead.
Wolf Lord does 3.21 wounds in the first round (same as Grimnar), Calgar does the same 2 in response. Next turn Wolf Lord does 1.7 wounds so Calgar is dead (although my wolf lord is down 2 wounds).
Incidentally this wolf lord costs 240 pts although I just realised that he can't take Bear AND Warrior born (for some reason I thought lords could take 2 sagas) but since he is T5 not T4(5) (we think) that hasn't been a factor in any of these match-ups.
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Post by: Ardensfax
Whoa. Big response since yesterday! I'll start updating the list!
Just to set something right, you CANNOT vote for the Nightbringer!
If he can warp reality to make him an infantryman, then so can Khorne on behalf of a bloodthirster.
Indeed, the Nightbringer could warp reality so he gets 300 votes. So, no C'tan pleeease. Cheers. Automatically Appended Next Post: Right. List updated!
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Post by: RxGhost
I think, point for point, my vote goes to the broodlord, especially if you take into account that he runs around with at least 5 genestealers.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
Where's Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka?
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Post by: KingCracker
karimabuseer wrote:Augustus wrote:EDIT {Abadon} Doesn't hurt tanks, or dreadnoughts though... Only good vs infantry
He's strength 8 with a possibility of 8 attacks (on the charge). He's the best non- mc special character for taking out tanks (with the exception of kharn and ghazgull).
Ghaz is easily the best IC for popping vehicles. Hes a bad ass in CC for sure, but Ill admit he cant really stack well against the likes of abbaddon or Calgar. I love me Orkses, but Im big enough to know that he cant pull it. BUT on vehicles tho mmmmm MMMMMMM! can he wreak those suckas!
For my vote, Ill go with the Dark Eldar guy on the jet bike. Holy hell is that some serious CC death.
Also, looking at abbaddons stats again, he is SO FRIGGIN BROKEN. Seriously there is no reason he should be THAT well stated
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Post by: Fafnir
GK Grand Master, simply because so long as he can get one wound in, he can take out any character, no matter who, no matter what(barring a botched psychic test at Ld 10). And with the right equipment, he can even force a draw with Abaddon.
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Post by: Frazzled
Meh they all suck. Eldar Phantom titan ist uber alles. Kicks your teeth in. Kicks your firends teeth in. Kicks their friends teeth in. Something comes up it can't kick in, it hit the jets and flies away. Yes, flies away and shoots you at range.
Eldar, putting the beatdown on xenos for 65 million years, with style!
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Post by: Nachturnus
Fafnir wrote:GK Grand Master, simply because so long as he can get one wound in, he can take out any character, no matter who, no matter what(barring a botched psychic test at Ld 10). And with the right equipment, he can even force a draw with Abaddon.
Kharn would brutalize a GK GM. He's immune to psychic powers, and hits like a freaking train wreck about a billion times. Even with the invul save, Kharn killz joo .
My vote is for Abbadon. Whoever said he can't kill tanks is prettymuch flat wrong, he's an average of 7 S8 attacks against the rear armor of tanks or the 12 armor of a walker, which prettymuch guarentees you at least two penetrating hits. He's got an initiative power fist that gives him reroll to wound and 2-6 bonus attacks. Even if he bricks up the roll on Drach'nyen, he can still use the Talon of Horus, and get in his 4 attacks. He also goes before you, unless you're that crack-headed archon from earlier.
I' de say Cannis after him.
Why hasn't anyone suggested Comissar "We'll be back" yet anyways?
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Post by: karimabuseer
KingCracker wrote:karimabuseer wrote:Augustus wrote:EDIT {Abadon} Doesn't hurt tanks, or dreadnoughts though... Only good vs infantry
He's strength 8 with a possibility of 8 attacks (on the charge). He's the best non- mc special character for taking out tanks (with the exception of kharn and ghazgull).
Ghaz is easily the best IC for popping vehicles. Hes a bad ass in CC for sure, but Ill admit he cant really stack well against the likes of abbaddon or Calgar. I love me Orkses, but Im big enough to know that he cant pull it. BUT on vehicles tho mmmmm MMMMMMM! can he wreak those suckas!
For my vote, Ill go with the Dark Eldar guy on the jet bike. Holy hell is that some serious CC death.
Also, looking at abbaddons stats again, he is SO FRIGGIN BROKEN. Seriously there is no reason he should be THAT well stated
He's an 11,000 (remember we're in m42 now) year old chaos warlord, blessed by the ruinous powers. Of course he should be fraggin hard lol. In fact, read this :"At El'phanor, his forces assaulted the Citadel of the Kromarch; a fastness built with all the cunning its designers could muster. It was pierced with but a single portal, a mighty gate of adamantium, fully three metres thick, but Abaddon cared not ... Abaddon laughed, raising his sword wreathed in black flames high above his head and smote the gate a blow that smashed it to splinters and shook the very foundations of the citadel."
They've underwritten him damnit! He should be s 10!!! (PSST if anyone is wondering, this is during the 4th Black crusade-m34 )
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Post by: Lord-Loss
Wolf Lord: [205]: Thunder Wolf Mount, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield.
This dude owns!
STR 10 CC hits! 12" Charge! 3+ Invulnerable! T5!
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
Are we doing this based on ability to massacre infantry/tanks or who would win in a fight against each other.
Because Canis is awesome if you get him surrounded but he's only str 5 and so rubbish if a walker gets into the equation and he lacks an invulnerable so any of the other uber IC's on this list will have him for breakfast.
Ghazkull is nasty but again while he murderises troops he's in trouble against any of the killers we've thrown up so far. On the turn he waaaghs he gets a 2+ invulnerable and he's the only character other than my wolf lord with a T5 so if he waaaaghs then he's in the running, particularly with a str10 PK, but if he doesn't waaagh he's in a lot of trouble vs my wolf lord, logan, calgar, abaddon, the archon and especially a GK grandmaster (1 failed save and poof, there goes gazzy).
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Post by: IyandenWarhost
Well, the tyranid brood lord isn't the best, but I think is a contender. I think that Eldar Howling Banshee or triking scorpion Automatically Appended Next Post: Howling banshee or striking scorpion phoenix lord i might add
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Post by: anticitizen013
Lucius is incredibly effective against hordes because for every save he makes, they take a S4 Power weapon hit.
Also Abaddon just because he's Abaddon
20106
Post by: Bascilica
I've seen Khan deal out some wicked punishment... against a landraider and 2 squads of marines (all gone now) so i'm gonn ahave to gowith him. Kharn the Betrayer.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Archite w/ agonizer, splinter pistol, drugs, shadow field, plasma grenades.
She usually hits first and has 6 attacks on the charge that can be rerolled,
thanks to the combat drugs.
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Post by: the_emperors_renegade
a demolisher cannon...think about it
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Post by: wuestenfux
the_emperors_renegade wrote:a demolisher cannon...think about it
If it scatters into cc, it can be quite devastating.
But some models have good invulnerable saves so that they eventually survive such a hit.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
Ghazghkull has seven S10 PK attacks on-the-charge and has a 2+ invulnerable save during the Waaagh! He and his Meganob friends have killed many a special character, including Abaddon and the Nightbringer.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Well, another good cc character is Karandras, with 8 power fist attacks of S8 on the charge.
This guy can outflank or infiltrate and so can be brought with high probability into the thickest melee.
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Post by: Redbeard
I can't believe no one has mentioned Skulltaker yet. With a chariot, he's WS7, BS3, S5, T5, W3, I5, A5, Ld10, 3+/5+. Eternal Warrior, Furious Charge, never wounds on less than a 4, and instant kills anything without an inv. save. And has a 2+ vs. psychic powers to boot.
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Post by: Dark Lord Seanron
How comes Zogwort made the list, but No Ghazkhull? Perhaps the killiest, stompiest power-klaw wielding mentalist there is. He makes these guys look like babies hur hur!
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Post by: Warboss Gutrip
I agree with Seanron on Ghazzy. Also, the Skulltaker is an absolute beast, as he is the only reliable way to strike down an Avatar in a duel.
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Post by: Ashryu
An IG Penal squad knife fighter!
They are hardcore.
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Post by: RxGhost
He'll cut'chu, mang.
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Post by: Iago
The archon on RJB gives Abaddon a run for his money.
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Post by: Fafnir
Nachturnus wrote:Fafnir wrote:GK Grand Master, simply because so long as he can get one wound in, he can take out any character, no matter who, no matter what(barring a botched psychic test at Ld 10). And with the right equipment, he can even force a draw with Abaddon.
Kharn would brutalize a GK GM. He's immune to psychic powers, and hits like a freaking train wreck about a billion times. Even with the invul save, Kharn killz joo .
Force weapons aren't psychic powers. You just need to take a psychic test to use them. Even if Kharn gets the charge, with the right equipment, the GM can strike at least the same time(sacred incense lowers the I of all chaos models by -1), and all it takes is a single unsaved wound. In all likelihood, the GM would force a draw in single combat. If he gets himself a retinue, it's a clearcut victory, as the terminators can act as ablative wounds.
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Post by: gameandwatch
I personally think that a broodlord with all the accutraments and implant attack is absolutly devastating. WS7 S6 I7 with power weapon hits that do 2 wounds per unsaved wound? that means that he essentially needs 2 unsaved on any character and they are dead before striking back...
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Post by: karimabuseer
bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Are we doing this based on ability to massacre infantry/tanks or who would win in a fight against each other.
Because Canis is awesome if you get him surrounded but he's only str 5 and so rubbish if a walker gets into the equation and he lacks an invulnerable so any of the other uber IC's on this list will have him for breakfast.
Ghazkull is nasty but again while he murderises troops he's in trouble against any of the killers we've thrown up so far. On the turn he waaaghs he gets a 2+ invulnerable and he's the only character other than my wolf lord with a T5 so if he waaaaghs then he's in the running, particularly with a str10 PK, but if he doesn't waaagh he's in a lot of trouble vs my wolf lord, logan, calgar, abaddon, the archon and especially a GK grandmaster (1 failed save and poof, there goes gazzy).
Abaddon's T5...
And to the guy who just said that Kharn will still take the stick from the nfw, it states in Blessing Of the Blood God that he'll treat a fw as pw.
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Post by: Fafnir
Really? My computer's kind of fried (I'll see if I can fix it on Friday), and I don't actually play Chaos, so I can't really confirm it. Sorry about that.
Although a combat between the two would be interesting. Although with a retinue, there's no way Kharn would live.
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Post by: anticitizen013
Redbeard wrote:I can't believe no one has mentioned Skulltaker yet. With a chariot, he's WS7, BS3, S5, T5, W3, I5, A5, Ld10, 3+/5+. Eternal Warrior, Furious Charge, never wounds on less than a 4, and instant kills anything without an inv. save. And has a 2+ vs. psychic powers to boot.
Yeah so upon closer inspection... this character is freakin amazing. Anything that doesn't either have an Inv save (or Eternal Warrior) is pretty much dead on a 4+ to wound. Very powerful indeed!
Also, 4 wounds if he's got a chariot, 3 on a Juggernaut. Either way... this character is amazing *ponders doing a Daemon army*
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Post by: airman
The Nightbringer
WS6 BS4 S10 T8 W5 I4 A5 LD10 Sv4+
5580
Post by: Eidolon
Abaddon
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Post by: Cryonicleech
Pfffft. Everyone knows Grimgor's Da Best. WS7 S7 A7 Always Strikes First... Oh wait...
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
gameandwatch wrote:I personally think that a broodlord with all the accutraments and implant attack is absolutly devastating. WS7 S6 I7 with power weapon hits that do 2 wounds per unsaved wound? that means that he essentially needs 2 unsaved on any character and they are dead before striking back...
Don't forget that the broodlord has 4 base attacks and 5 on the charge... and they are additionally rending attacks for vehicle killing.
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Post by: Eidolon
I once saw Abby charge and take out 8 nob bikers in one round. Tell me any other character capable of even doing this.
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
As stated above, a broodlord with implant attack could. 2 wounds per attack + 5 attacks on the charge = dead nobs.
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Post by: Eidolon
Thats 5 dead nobs, assuming he hits and wounds with all of them. This abby didnt hit or wound with all, just most.
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Post by: Owain
One Grot.
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Post by: starbomber109
What about the hive tyrant? He can get implant attack as well, and he's like WS 6 or can be anyways. The Avatar is fairly nasty too, isn't he WS10 or something else mean? But my vote must go to Ghazghkull Thraka. For one turn he will destroy anything, S10 power fist, +2 invulnerable, fleet, fearless. Even after that turn, he's 4+ invulnerable, still LD10, and he gets extra attacks in close combat. I can't believe no one seems to have mentioned him yet. Edit: As to who can kill more nob bikers, Ghaz can kill 7 nob bikers outright, it's possible, and he kills them outright, whereas they can't do that to him because he won't instantly die and has 4 wounds. Edit2: Although, man to ork, Abbadon would probably be able to beat Ghaz, sadly.
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Hive tyrant's initiative isn't quite as impressive as the broodlords.... that is what makes the broodlord a slightly better choice. I don't know about the Avatar, but it is probably better than the Hive Tyrant just due to having a higher initiative (it does, right?).
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Post by: wuestenfux
If you don't ask for a point vs. cost relation, then a C'tan is my preferred choice.
19856
Post by: WarmasterScott
No point to bring up monstrous creatures.. the op said cc non monstrous creatures, so avatar, ctans etc are not included.
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Post by: KingCracker
WarmasterScott wrote:No point to bring up monstrous creatures.. the op said cc non monstrous creatures, so avatar, ctans etc are not included.
Apparently people seem to of forgotten that.
Also, dont get me wrong I love Ghaz. Hes da biggest Ork out there. But Im thinking this is a one on one fight. Thats 1vs1 for those who dont read. No retinues, no nothing. Ghaz would probably die in a head to head with abbaddon. Sure the fates could shine on his rolls and IF abby didnt kill him in one turn, Ghaz COULD beat his face into the ground.
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Post by: karimabuseer
Lets pretend the hyped up broodlord is attacking abaddon. The lord strikes first, hitting twice. He then proceeds to cause 1.3 wounds. Abaddon has a 50% chance of saving any power weapon hit made on him. So out of 10 cc rounds, the Broodlord would make a wound in 6 and a half of them. Not enough to kill Abaddon. Abaddon has an average attacks of 7/8. Let's go easy on the broodlord and say 7. Abaddon hits back, causing 3.5 hits. He wounds on two with rerolls, so in the majority of situations all wounds are made. Taking in mind we previously went easy on the lord, we'll up that to 4 (Even if I didn't up it to 4, 3 wounds would be enough...unless a broodlord has 4..:0). The broodlord dies. Even if Abaddon only causes 1 wound, the broodlord will be killed by id (as far as i'm aware of). Abaddon wins. Also keep in mind that Abaddon has a ranged attack...
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Are you including into your calculations all the biomorphs available to a broodlord? Toxin sacs increase the strength by a point. And is that including an extra attack for a charge or not? Just curious, I am sure Abbadon still whoops up on broodlords.
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Post by: Zomro
I, too, am very surprised to see that Ghazghkull isn't on the list. Ghazzy on the charge with a WAAAAGH! called will destroy anything he touches. 7 str 10 attacks and a 2+ armor save for two full rounds of combat. Even if he gets charged he can still declare is WAAAGH! to save himself in the first round of assault. 4 wound eternal warrior with 2+ invulnerable for 2 rounds is hard to kill. Ghazzy can take down Skullbrand single handed with the WAAAGH! charge.
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
People have mentioned ghazkull people. He's awesome on the turn he waaaghs and grabs his 2+ invulnerable but on any other turn his low init does him in against some of the other killers. Great though he is I still think Abaddon would do him in in almost any fight.
I forgot about skulltaker. Although we have to discount the chariot since that causes him to lose IC. I think on a jugger he is a definite contender, anybody with the daemon codex care to run the math of him vs some of the other contenders.
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Post by: Eidolon
Skull taker can do a number on any character without eternal warrior. If he charges someone like shrike or a regular warboss its game over. However if he runs into the big ork or abby or lysander he will probably end up losing. Still a very good character however.
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Post by: karimabuseer
FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Are you including into your calculations all the biomorphs available to a broodlord? Toxin sacs increase the strength by a point. And is that including an extra attack for a charge or not? Just curious, I am sure Abbadon still whoops up on broodlords.
Im counting him as Ws 7, Str 6, I7. And not charging. How many points is the broodlord? I know he's gonna be no-where near as much as abaddon, but just wondering if you'd be able to field 2 against him..
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Broodlord by himself with implant attack, toxin sacs, and fleshhooks by himself is 90 points. That makes him WS 6, S 6, I7, 4 attacks (3 base +1 scything talons) that ignore armor and does 2 wounds on a successful wound. You have to pay points for a genestealer retinue though, at least 5 stealers = 70 points. Even still, that comes out to 90+70=160 for one broodlord. So, its 100 points cheaper than Abbadon and you get a handful of stealers to take/add wounds in combat.
Let's mathhammer that out, if we consider a single broodlord with the aforementioned biomorphs were to charge first (which is likely, with the broodlords infiltrate ability.) The broodlord will attack first with the increased I stat of 8. He gets 5 attacks on the charge. WS 6 vs. WS7 = 4+ to save, giving his attacks a 50% chance of hitting. That equates to 2.5 attacks connecting. To wound, S6 vs. T5 = 3+ to wound. Therefore, out of those 2.5 attacks that hit, 1.66 of those attacks will wound. Now, Abbadon has a 4+ invulnerable save, so there is a 1 in 2 (or 50%) chance that he will save against that wound.
Abbadon, on the other hand, gets anywhere from 5-10 attacks. If he were to charge, that gets bumped from 6-11 attacks. He would attack at the same time as the Broodlord on the charge with I7. However, he has a better chance of killing the broodlord outright due to his high number of attacks. His to-hit roll would be 3+, meaning that 3.96 to 7.26 attacks will connect on average. The to-wound roll for those attacks is a mere 2+, meaning that approximately 3.4 to 6.24 attacks will still wound on the first roll. That isn't including rerolls, which only have a 16% chance of failing again. Let's call that 3.64 to 6.67 attacks wounding the broodlord. No armor saves allowed, and the broodlord has no invul. save. Three wounds on the broodlord = dead broodlord, on first round too.
Therefore, yes Abbadon is the safer bet in CC. But it can be assumed that if 2 broodlords with those accruements were to assault him simultaneously, he could be insta-gibbed before Abbadon gets to assault back. Also, broodlords with implant attacks are really only useful against multiple-wound targets, whereas Abbadon is useful against anything that can die.
But for the points cost, you can see that broodlords are not a bad deal at all. I am going on too long as it is to worry about math-hammering in the retinues, but with genestealer help broodlords could definitely overwhelm abbadon.
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Post by: karimabuseer
I hope they trump up the broodlord and make him really bad in 5th edition nids codex-He always causes problems for me with a large genestealer retinue in games....especially since my opponents mistook preferred enemy....re-roll hit and wounds my tzeentchian tentacles...
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Yeah, it would be nice to get rewarded for making those Space hulk models playable in 40k
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Post by: KingCracker
FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Yeah, it would be nice to get rewarded for making those Space hulk models playable in 40k
You know theres a crazy fad going around called "converting" You should look into that. It apparently fixes any rules problems you may come up with
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
That is my point, I already did the converting and it would be nice for those ultra-expensive models to be worth the while in the game.
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Post by: jsullivanlaw
An Arcite on a jetbike is killier than an Archon on a jetbike... Higher initiative, wych weapons (halve enemy weapon skill, can't use two cc weapons), plus the arcite has a 4++ in CC if the shadowfield goes down.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKAAAAAAAAA!
Let me throw out a point in favor of Ghazghkull that no-one has yet mentioned; he's totally immune to all forms of ID. He doesn't have the EW rule, so even things that counteract that still won't kill him; he's got his own rule, which just says, "immune to instant death". In short, force weapons, S10 weapons, Abbadon's daemon-sword, all don't insta-frag him. I contend that would let him stomp any other character named here into the mud, assuming he gets his Waagh!
And really, it would take a fairly dumb player for him not to against most of these characters.
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Post by: chaplaincliff
I would have to say the Black Templar Emperor's Champion, main reason is that for 50 points he can make an entire close combat oriented army re-roll all missed hits, this is not him being the beast but his effects are beastly. he is only WS 6 Str 6 Init 5 with 2 wounds, though he does wear artificer armour. but again the EC's true strength is in his vows, especially the acept any challenge no matter the cost, this confers preferred enemy for all enemies on all battle brothers in the army.
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Post by: Eidolon
BeRzErKeR wrote:GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKAAAAAAAAA!
"immune to instant death".
Which is what eternal warrior says. Enjoy your wolf of the wolf wolf and demon hunter force weapons.
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Post by: Falconlance
I find this thread's lack of Prince Yriel, disturbing.
Whats not to love about a str6 ap3 large blast template over the guy you just dog piled on in the assault phase?
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Post by: Ardensfax
Sorry I haven't updated for a few days. Been away temporarily. The list is now updated.
Sudden swing for Ghazzy!
Awesome choice somebody had in selecting 'One Grot'. I have this mental image of a Warlord Titan descending on a grot, who simply smiles and reaches for his steroids...
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Post by: Just Dave
The Tau Ethereal!
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Post by: Owain
LAWL.
It's gotta be a Chaos character. They're all positively terrifying in CC. They take down entire squads in one assault.
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