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Post by: MisterMoon
I'm going to get on my soap box here for a bit.
First things first. I'm relatively new to the hobby, but I've been aware of it for a while, and have had several friends who play who've been playing a long time. We have all came to the same conclusion, folks don't paint anymore.
I grade my painting as just slightly above average. However, that average is hard to judge as so few folks paint anymore. I live in northeast Atlanta. We have a Games Workshop store and a very large private shop. The guys who work at the Games Workshop have virtually nothing painted in their own private possession- even their former black shirt had army caseS (with an S) of unpainted minis. The private store is a slightly different story as the store owners have vast collections that are beautifully painted, but many GOOD gamers show up half painted- or not painted at all. I got into the hobby with the idea that everyone painted their armies, and would be ashamed to bring unpainted minis to a gaming table. At this point I have no idea where I got into this assumption. However, it'd seem to me that if you spend 50 bucks on a model kit you'd want to do more than just glue it together, more importantly if you invest all the money and time into this hobby you'd want to do it right and paint; and if you didn't know how, you'd want to learn. I know several folks will think I'm elitist or call me names like paint nazi et al. but I seriously did get into this hobby for the visual stimulation from seeing a fully modeled miniaturization of a futuristic or fantasy battlefield.
I've heard all the excuses. I say save your money and get a RTSG on the PC or XBOX. I get told that they enjoy the game and the social element. I say quite seriously that what you do with your money is your business but if you aren't going to do it right, save that money and just a piece of paper and write ORKS on it, instead of buying the fifty dollar kit of orks. One analogy I use which I think is pretty strong. If I staple some HO tracks to a plain piece of wood and put a train on it I'm technically into model trains. However, I'm no where near they guy who's got the entire city scape built up. Now I understand that you must START with some HO tracks stapled to plain wood, but it seems many gamers are happy stopping right there and never fully appreciating the hobby.
To sum it up- if both armies aren't painted then to me the visual element is lost and I'm 12 years old again playing Risk. I don't get the stimulating simulation feel that I get from seeing two painted armies, even half decently painted.
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Post by: Guttrench Skullsmasha
I understand what your saying, When thier painted you really feel like emercing your self into the hobby and unleashing your inner nerd! Heck when I played with my brothers friends Black templars I was reading thier oaths aload and yelling for the Emporer, the fact of the matter is it really gets you into it to have them painted and when you've painted them yourself you get a swelling sense of pride everytime you look at them and I really understand what your saying!
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Post by: KingCracker
Although I agree with you to some extents, youve got to realize that this hobby has alot of different elements in it that draw people to it for some reason or another. And not everyone will share the same opinion on that element.
Sure your into this the the dynamic of it all, and thats fine. I think I like fluff and customizing the most. I play fluffy armies, and read the backgrounds to get more into what Im doing. Others are more into the tournament aspect. They want to build the hardiest build and just beat the pants out of everyone. Painters like to spend WAY more time on how pretty their armies look, and really dont care if a certain squad is ACTUALLY codex correct. Then others are there to get out of the house, and hang with some friends shooting the breeze and blow the occasional vehicle up.
Are any of those people wrong? Not at all. They all enjoy different parts of the same game. And just because you want everything painted to play, doesnt mean that they all agree with on that.
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Post by: children of filth
I get the same feeling, although i will play with my army if some parts are unpainted. I just prefer to play after I've finished the whole thing. and what irritates me most is when i go to all the effort to paint, convert, and base 4000 points of Orks, and the average army is completely unpainted or at best merely basecoated.
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Post by: KingCracker
children of filth wrote:I get the same feeling, although i will play with my army if some parts are unpainted. I just prefer to play after I've finished the whole thing. and what irritates me most is when i go to all the effort to paint, convert, and base 4000 points of Orks, and the average army is completely unpainted or at best merely basecoated.
Lol I do agree there. Ive got just over 2000pts of Orks, still ALOT of Orks, and I dont think the excuse "well theres so much to paint" is a valid excuse when Ive got 3 times the minis to paint, and they mostly are painted
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Post by: LunaHound
For the people that insist on others to hastily paint their army for the sake of visual appeal for your gaming experience i suggest you visit the swap shop.
There you'll see the heart breaking stories of people painting their army , some even had them commission painted.
At the end of the day, all the effort , time , $ spent on it fetches them below 20% off retail value , due to the buyer want to strip the paint off.
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Post by: daedalus
I have a less than half painted army. I've been building the army faster than I can paint them, and I'm a slow painter. I'm not very good, but I'm pretty meticulous. I work on painting them a little bit at a time due to having a life outside of Warhammer. I'd love to have them all painted, and hope one day to, but 30 SoB, 45 GK, 100+ guardsmen, and vehicles for all the above to ride around in don't exactly paint themselves.
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Post by: Anpu42
I have had paint issues in the past, some of them silly. Once not long after the 2nd edition Space Wolf Codex came out I fielded a mostly painted SW army. The base was Primer Grey, and one of my opponents refused to play my Space Wolves because they were not “Space Wolf Grey”. I have used Primer Grey sense 1st Edition/RT days.
I don’t have problems playing against a primed or unpainted army, as long next week a few more have been painted.
Currently my SW army is now going though a repaint now all thanks to Dakka. A test bed figure I just did for how to paint a MotW figure turned out so well, that I am now repainting the whole army.
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Post by: HalloweenBomber
Painting is an issue with some people but if you work hard and reward yourself it works and ur army is painted in no time.
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Post by: malfred
I don't need you to paint to enjoy the game.
I do need myself to paint to enjoy the game.
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Post by: Fexor
I feel the same way. I mean, me personally I refuse to field any piece that's not painted. Now that might be a bit extreme, but to me its not worth fielding if its not finished.
I'm a bit of perfectionist, but I've come to terms with it and it's my choice to do that. Now, I won't stop someone else from playing with a non-painted piece. But it is far better to battle someone with a fully painted army, it's just an amazing sight to behold, even if the point value is only 500. It just brings up to a whole new level, you feel more like a General issuing orders, then just a nerd at a table playing with plastic army men rolling dice.
I know most don't think of themselves like that, I'm just adding dramatization to make my point.
Cheers
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Post by: LunaHound
malfred wrote:I don't need you to paint to enjoy the game.
I do need myself to paint to enjoy the game.
We need more people that thinks this way -_-
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Post by: BeefyG
I need awesome paintjobs from others to inspire me.
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Post by: Commander Endova
I belong to a fairly small club, and all the players know each other pretty well. As such, I simply enjoy seeing my regular opponents with a few new models painted each time we meet. Its visually stimulating. Not having them painted is a non-issue for me, and I'd rather see well painted models that rushed jobs just so the army can be fielded.
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Post by: Aduro
I don't find painting as fun as modeling the figs or playing the game. Personally, I think I'm fairly good at painting when I try, I just get bored of trying to get a whole army all colored up and consider it a chore. Check my gallery and you'll find a vast selection of heavily converted stuff that's all pretty much bare. It's what I find fun and like spending my money on.
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Post by: Manchu
I think painting is very fun. It's awesome to see your stuff go through that transformation. That and I feel like I make progress in skill from model to model. Assembly is kind of a drag for me, however. What a pity that playing with an unassembled army is impossible.
Can I still get up on a soapbox and lecture everybody else about how playing WHFB/40k isn't about the hobby? "I'm no less into it because I refuse to put my little men together! How dare you question my preferences!" Whoops, here come the flames, gotta run!
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Post by: Mad Monk's Mekshop
what you're saying is very true, and i have the same problem because im playing way too many computergames insteadd of painting...
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Post by: chromedog
I paint, so do the people I play with and against.
Some people are just lazy or lax.
There are games with pre-painted models for these people. Push them in that direction. Better yet, arrange for someone else to play the game for them as well.
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Post by: warpcrafter
I understand completely. I continued to play my crappy chaos space marines for months while I was painting up my Orks. Now I'll suffer through the different flavor of suckitude delivered by the Orks until I get enough Tyranids finished for a game. By then, I'll be ready to start on a bunch of Skaven, and will probably be ranting about how much the Bugs let me down. Oh well, that's the life of a gamer I guess.
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Post by: Tek
like awesomepaintjob says - paint your stuff.
I am one of the laziest painters out there; I have loads to do and I'm not doing it. I know it's bad, and I agree it's awesome to look at a fully (or almost fully) painted force.
I'll get there one day.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
GWOZ stores used to require you to have 3 colours minimum to use models instore, they changed that rule a couple of years ago, I assume in anticipation of Apocalypse.
Now more than 50% of armies are >75% unpainted.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
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Post by: Golga
Oh quiet you. Ive been painting my army almost non stop for the last 2 days and I have 3 days left to paint for the tourney.
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Post by: Anung Un Rama
What is the internet version of a firm handshake of approval?
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Post by: jgemrich
MisterMoon wrote: However, that average is hard to judge as so few folks paint anymore.
Not really. Post some pics here and we can rate them in the Gallery.
I got into the hobby with the idea that everyone painted their armies, and would be ashamed to bring unpainted minis to a gaming table. At this point I have no idea where I got into this assumption.
Me neither. I mean the miniatures support a rule set with which you can use to play. So If I buy my figures to use with the ruleset then why should I need to paint them. You can buy the miniatures to hobby with or create gorgeous pieces of art but if you buy them to play a game, why do they need to be painted?
However, it'd seem to me that if you spend 50 bucks on a model kit you'd want to do more than just glue it together, more importantly if you invest all the money and time into this hobby you'd want to do it right and paint; and if you didn't know how, you'd want to learn.
Or if I spend $50 bucks I can choose to do with my figures as a I please. I'm sure there are gamers that don't understand why someone would paint a figure to a high standard to sit on a shelf. There are several folks who only paint, should the gamer chastise them to Learn the rules. Certainly they'd want to get their money's worth and play the game too. Does your chastisement go both ways? Or is it only directed at those who don't paint.
I've heard all the excuses. I say save your money and get a RTSG on the PC or XBOX. I get told that they enjoy the game and the social element.
I don't own a system or have a computer to run those type of games. Plus I hate them. I seriously love the social element and friends I've made gaming. To me that is the core to the hobby. To say I should stay in my house in front of a monitor b/c I want to play with a grey horde is ridiculous.
I say quite seriously that what you do with your money is your business
Great... we agree.
but if you aren't going to do it right, save that money and just a piece of paper and write ORKS on it, instead of buying the fifty dollar kit of orks.
Please show me the part about what is "doing it right"
One analogy I use which I think is pretty strong. e If I staple some HO tracks to a plain piece of wood and put a train on it I'm technically into model trains. However, I'm no where near they guy who's got thentire city scape built up. Now I understand that you must START with some HO tracks stapled to plain wood, but it seems many gamers are happy stopping right there and never fully appreciating the hobby.
This is a bad analogy. In model trains their is nothing that stands alone like a set of rules in GW. You also have a dynamic range of price involved from size to quality of set up. Both time and Money are large and varying factors for the train enthusiast. For a 40K set up (rules/figs) the cost is relatively the same for a 2000 pt army investment. What varies is the time afforded to painting/modeling which are not necessary to enjoy the GAME.
To sum it up- if both armies aren't painted then to me the visual element is lost and I'm 12 years old again playing Risk. I don't get the stimulating simulation feel that I get from seeing two painted armies, even half decently painted.
To bad for you. You are really missing 1/2 the point of the "Hobby". For me that is sharing an experience across the table with the gentlemen or lady. Painting... pssssh. Doesn't impact my ability to enjoy the challenge and have a few laughs with another person. To use your analogy... if you need the visual stimulation, there are plenty of great computer games or Xbox releases that have 1000% better visuals then you average painted Warhammer army on the table.
Cheers,
John
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Post by: Tyyr
I like to paint. I suck, but I enjoy it. Every mini gets a little less train-wrecky.
I can understand why some don't however. With family, a job, and other concerns time for a hobby can be limited. Maybe all the time they've got is in the mini's. Maybe assembling them and converting a few is literally all the time they've got to devote to the hobby outside of sitting at a table? Personally I've got an hour,maybe two of free time a day to do as I please. Reading, writing, computer games, the internet, and gaming all in an hour or maybe two per day and that's usually the hour or two at the end when you're feeling tired and worn out. Time can be a major issue for some people.
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Post by: SilverMK2
I've been paintging up my CSM (very slowly) for about a year. I've still not even painted half of them. I am going to get them all painted up before I play against anyone in a store or shop... I've only ever played them against my brother, who has a mostly painted Blood Angel army (though he is currently repainting a lot of them). Some people just don't have the time or ability to paint for the long hours it takes to get an army finished. Though as I aluded to above, I will have a fully painted army before I take them to play in public, even if it takes me another year to do. Personally I don't mind playing against painted or unpainted armies, though it is much nicer when they are painted. I don't particularly like playing with unpainted models, but I will against my brother, because we generally just play until we have killed everything on the table and use whatever models we want rather than following the FOC, so I use unpainted stuff for that.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Anpu42 wrote:I have had paint issues in the past, some of them silly. Once not long after the 2nd edition Space Wolf Codex came out I fielded a mostly painted SW army. The base was Primer Grey, and one of my opponents refused to play my Space Wolves because they were not “Space Wolf Grey”. I have used Primer Grey sense 1st Edition/RT days.
Well they sound like a dick. Lets not conflate the people who only want to field pained armies with GW purist nazis. Yes there are some who think you can only use GW paint and clippers to make your models but that's not in the spirit of the hobby. I believe in only fielding painted armies or genuine works in progress. A genuine 'work in progress' is something that doesn't remain untouched after a year.
I believe in fielding painted armies because that's what I've grown up with as a basic expectation from wargames shows and clubs. It's my observation that stubbornly fielding an unpainted army is mostly unique to GW players, I don't know why but there you are.
I don't understand the "but my painting is awful" reason for not painting. Even the Golden Demon winners produced rubbish the first time they picked up a brush.
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Post by: Azog
I, too, am in the NE Atlanta area. Do I have a painted, fieldable army? Yes, for the most part (right now the arms are off the chaos marines, but a spot of glue fixes that fast. I am also going back and re-painting them a bit, and re-basing them with resin bases).
I enjoy painting. I hate actually playing the game - I find the rules since 2nd edition to be rather lackluster (I was about to start typing why, but that's not the point of this thread). Therefore, I just don't play the game much (if at all). I somewhat enjoy watching a game, I very much enjoy seeing a well-painted army, but the rules just make me a sad panda.
My point? Different people are in the hobby for different reasons. Some are like me, and some model their wargaming after Conan - crush their enemey, see their models driven before them... you can take it from there.
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Post by: Jimi Nemesis
KingCracker wrote:Although I agree with you to some extents, youve got to realize that this hobby has alot of different elements in it that draw people to it for some reason or another. And not everyone will share the same opinion on that element.
Sure your into this the the dynamic of it all, and thats fine. I think I like fluff and customizing the most. I play fluffy armies, and read the backgrounds to get more into what Im doing. Others are more into the tournament aspect. They want to build the hardiest build and just beat the pants out of everyone. Painters like to spend WAY more time on how pretty their armies look, and really dont care if a certain squad is ACTUALLY codex correct. Then others are there to get out of the house, and hang with some friends shooting the breeze and blow the occasional vehicle up.
Are any of those people wrong? Not at all. They all enjoy different parts of the same game. And just because you want everything painted to play, doesnt mean that they all agree with on that.
daedalus wrote:I have a less than half painted army. I've been building the army faster than I can paint them, and I'm a slow painter. I'm not very good, but I'm pretty meticulous. I work on painting them a little bit at a time due to having a life outside of Warhammer. I'd love to have them all painted, and hope one day to, but 30 SoB, 45 GK, 100+ guardsmen, and vehicles for all the above to ride around in don't exactly paint themselves.
Combine these two, and you have my oppinion and situation, except replace SoB with about 50 Chaos models and 100+ Guardsmen with almost 2000 points worth of Blood Angels
Aduro wrote:I don't find painting as fun as modeling the figs or playing the game. Personally, I think I'm fairly good at painting when I try, I just get bored of trying to get a whole army all colored up and consider it a chore. Check my gallery and you'll find a vast selection of heavily converted stuff that's all pretty much bare. It's what I find fun and like spending my money on.
I much prefer the Converting and the Gaming to the painting.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't understand the "but my painting is awful" reason for not painting. Even the Golden Demon winners produced rubbish the first time they picked up a brush.
Have you seen Roleplayer's Blog?
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Post by: Hawkins
I'll agree with you, ive been chastizing the locals here that dont paint their armies, making pointed barbs about unpainted units or whole armies. I get alot of crap like 'im just playtesting this unit.' (right for the last 6 months?) or some other half arsed answer. and its a bit of a sore spot with me as well.
But, its not just my hobby, and gaming is a shared experiance, there isnt much i can do to force a player to at least paint a unit in even one colour let alone the standard 3. Its as much their hobby as anyone elses, yours, mine , and the 9 year old whom couldnt paint to save his life, but at least hes got a painted army.
My advice is dont worry about it, your the one that ends up with a great looking army, or if your that flustered over it organize paint sessions at the local what ever. (club, GWstore, etc) and get involved.
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Post by: adielubbe
I don't know how it is in your area, but i live in South Africa, and at every tournament you can't compete unless your army is painted.
The criteria they use is:
-atleast 3 colours on every model
-atleast some sand or something on the base
That strongly encourages people to paint their armies.
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Post by: Thanatos_elNyx
I have other addicitions to take up my time, but I do make an effort. My Necrons are all painted, and no it isn't a simple drybrush metal over black.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Anung Un Rama wrote:What is the internet version of a firm handshake of approval?
This.
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Post by: malfred
Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
I think proprietary rulesets changed that. Before when you painted models you did so
because you'd use them for different rules sets or keep the option of using them for
some future rules set that hasn't been released. Historical figures gave you even more
options when you painted a figure; you could expect that if there wasn't a rules set for
your time period yet, there would be one in the future.
With the company specific rulesets/models I think you're buying into something different. You're
buying into a game world, and as such, you have other considerations that become "the point"
of playing tabletop games for you.
I dislike the argument that you should send people to pre-painted game systems if they
want to play tabletop games but don't want to paint. Those game systems aren't the
ones that they're interested in and often those game worlds aren't the ones they're
interested in. People want to play 40k, or Warmachine, or whatever. At that point I think
paint becomes a personal choice and standard.
I do agree with Waaagh Gonads, though. Paint is part of the hobby buy-in. If someone
spends hours, days, weeks on their army they're more likely to continue playing the
game.
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Post by: Captain Killjoy
ok what about people like me who enjoy the game,but have no cash to buy paints?Right now most of my spare cash is just going expanding my currant force.Should i wait a few months to play simply because my army is not painted
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Post by: Dal'yth Dude
malfred wrote:I don't need you to paint to enjoy the game.
I do need myself to paint to enjoy the game.
My thoughts exactly.
I only buy when I don't have anything else to paint. It keeps me motivated and saves me money. My personal standards are very high and while I prefer to see painted armies across the table, I'm willing to cut people slack if they're starting. I certainly don't demand people paint their stuff before I play them.
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Post by: warboss
while i would never refuse to play against an unpainted army, i definitely prefer to play against a painted one. lets face it... half of this game is simply eye candy and seeing one pretty little army of toy soldiers standing next to another one while we use probability and small cubes to determine the outcome of the "battle". if someone is new, i encourage them to paint their army. if that fails for a few months, i reserve the right to make jokes at the expense of their great grey horde.
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Post by: Anpu42
This is directed to all of us “Poor Gamers”.
I have had this issue for years.
However you can go to “Wally-Mart” and for $5.00 come away with one can of Spay Paint and 8 tubes of paint that hold 3x the paint of most of your standard paints.
As far as time management, that can be tricky, but if you can come up with 1-4 hours a week you might be surprised what you can do.
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Post by: Hordicant
Come to Phoenix Games, look me up and I will slap my unpainted army on the table against you any day and then when the tournaments hit I can point about 5-12 armies on any given weekend that I have either painted a Unit from, or painted the whole thing. I make a lot of money painting for other people, which unfortunately during my time without work leaves me very little if any to paint my own armies.
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Post by: KingCracker
Kilkrazy wrote:Anung Un Rama wrote:What is the internet version of a firm handshake of approval?
This.

I was waiting for you to post something along those lines. Can always count on KK
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Post by: romulus571
The way I see it the average player has limited time and/or money to dedicate to the hobby. They can either use that time to paint great figs, or they can use that time to improve their game. Or both, if they have lots of time. My gaming group is evidence of this... the players with better paintjobs tend to care less about the gaming aspect, so they get the snot beat out of them when the ranks of gray and black tourney soldiers show up. It's all about priorities I guess. I don't care if I win, as long as the other player is going "oooooh pretty" as I carry my figs to the casualty table.
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Post by: Anpu42
A note on time management, here are a few things you can do.
Break you units into 3 categories [As a 30 year D&D Gamer I think in these terms]
-Player Characters [Independent Characters/Vehicles]
-Non-Player Characters [Squad Leader/Bikes and Calvary]
-Minions or Meat Shields [Basic Infantry Guys]
Get a few things together
-A good light source
-TV tray
-Your Paints
-1 PC
-A couple of NPCs
-One Squad of Minions
-A goal like: “I will complete this Squad this Week”
I then turn on Adult Swim for Family Guy x2 and Robot Chick x2 [Pick your own show]
I normally watch them anyways, so now I am multi tasking.
Just pain for 1-2 hours
While the Minions are Drying you work on you PC and then while he is drying you work on NPCs.
In 52 weeks you should have your Army compleate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if you primer/base army color before you take them off the trees, half you job is done
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Post by: CT GAMER
MisterMoon wrote:I'm going to get on my soap box here for a bit.
First things first. I'm relatively new to the hobby, but I've been aware of it for a while, and have had several friends who play who've been playing a long time. We have all came to the same conclusion, folks don't paint anymore.
I blame video games and Mtv.
Instant gratification and dwindling attention spans FTL...
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
Because after all, it's morally offensive to use unpainted toy soldiers.
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Post by: Neith
I have a 5,000 point CSM force. Of that, 3,500 is unpainted or in various stages of painting. I admit that I was younger and stupid then, and continuously bought new units without finishing the previous ones. This built up and up until I realised the huge amount of work I'd have to do to get the army tabletop-ready.
My excuse is that I had most of this stuff from CSM 3rd Codex era, and took a long break from the hobby to focus on my education (I was in University and the workload really didn't allow for me to spend my time painting).
When I did finally graduate and got back into the hobby (about six months ago at most), I found that the CSM Codex had been updated (to 4th). Upon reading it, I hated that the character of the Chaos Legions had been all but removed and they played like a more generic force. That really annoyed me, and I stopped collecting CSM. Unfortunately, the byproduct of this is that I still have 3,500pts of CSM that aren't even basecoated.
The good news is that my newest army (Blood Angels) I really enjoy painting, and I want them to look the best force I've ever painted up.
As for why other people don't paint- I guess some people will have similar stories to mine, but other people are simply more interested in the gaming side and might really detest painting. I used to rush my painting to get models on the table when I first started, but now I'm spending a week or more of casual painting on one unit and finding it fun.
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Post by: Anpu42
Once many years ago one of the LFGS had a "Painting Day" insted of a "Game Day". That helped alot.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Because after all, it's morally offensive to use unpainted toy soldiers.
Not really. But it isn't as visually stimulating. Depends on what you look to get out of your games.
Heck by your argument you should have no issue with my using appropriately sized/based cardboard cutouts...
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Post by: Pherion
romulus571 wrote:The way I see it the average player has limited time and/or money to dedicate to the hobby. They can either use that time to paint great figs, or they can use that time to improve their game. Or both, if they have lots of time. My gaming group is evidence of this... the players with better paintjobs tend to care less about the gaming aspect, so they get the snot beat out of them when the ranks of gray and black tourney soldiers show up. It's all about priorities I guess. I don't care if I win, as long as the other player is going "oooooh pretty" as I carry my figs to the casualty table.
My sentaments exactly.
During tournaments, my game store usualy offers a "Best Appearance" prize in addition to the general "I beat you up" prize. Its ususaly the same thing too. So if I win best apearance, I'm just as big of a winner even if I lost every single match!
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Post by: Slappywag
I'm definitely more of a painter than a gamer. I don't have an army but it's something I'm slowly working on. I've written my army list and it is something I'm happy with. I want to get better at painting before i start spending money on my army. I have practiced so far on 3-4 models. I'm converting some HQ's at the moment and once I've finished painting them I'm going to buy my army one unit at a time and paint them till i finish then get the next unit.
I've thought about it a lot and know that if i spend £200-300 on an army in one go I won't finish it all and end up starting something else. I figured if i can see my efforts progressing I'm going to want to carry it through and eventually play with it. If I buy 1500-2000pts worth of stuff and assemble it in one go It would be incredibly daunting to paint it all.
Plus it will be easier on my wallet.
As I haven't played I can't say how I would react to playing someone with a half finished/unfinished painted army. I think I would be disappointed but ultimately it would make me feel better about my own army. If i knew the person was a good painter (or really liked painting) but hadn't gotten round to it yet then I wouldn't mind.
Slappy
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Post by: Newt-Of-Death
I love painting, and love seeing full painted armies.
My problem is that a few years ago and even recently up to a year ago, I took an addictive binge and bought so much stuff that the best I could do was undercoat everything.
I do Love seeing consistency and completeness in painted armies, but I really havent had the time until now, due to being at university for 5 years!
Ive now got to finish 4.2k Dark eldar, 2.2k Orks, 2.1k Tau, and 1.8k Crimson fists. Even tho I want to complete my armies to 4.5, and the rest 2.5.
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Post by: Tyyr
Anpu42 wrote:Once many years ago one of the LFGS had a "Painting Day" insted of a "Game Day". That helped alot.
That would absolutely be perfect. Being able to see how its done in person would be a huge benefit to a lot of people.
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Post by: Eldar Own
I think that many people just want to play the game and cant be bothered to paint. Ive seen a lot of necron armies because of this, a simple spray of metallic spray paint and you have a decent looking army in no time.
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Post by: Fafnir
I'd love to have my orkz completely converted and painted, but I just don't have the time or drive, university and all.
I go out of my way to paint the standout units to the best of my ability, and they usually look great, but I just don't have the time or money to get everything as perfect as I'd like.
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Post by: Gavin Thorne
I'm loathe to field unpainted units in anything other than a house game. I love the hobby as a whole, though painting and converting are probably 90% total and playing the game is only 10%.
I had much greater enjoyment when I put the final brushstrokes on my completely converted exodite dragon lord than I did when I used him in my club game. Not everyone feels the same way I do and I'm cool with that.
However, I always ask the gray army of doom players if they'd like some help painting their armies - three color standard is pretty simple, very cheap, and looks great at arm's length. I get to pass on any tricks or tips to make the job easier and they get painted units.
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Post by: Zid
I think the reason people have lots of unpainted stuff is as follows;
1) some people just wanna game. Some people don't have the time, or patience, to sit there and paint armys.
2) Outpacing. Some people, like myself, buy so much stuff that they can't possibly paint it all in a timely manner.
3) Patience. Peoples patience in our day and age is very, very short. We have internet and fast food mentalitys, I want it done, and I want it done NOW!
I believe that warhammer hobbying isn't for everyone. Then again on the converse, for every unpainted, unprimed army I've seen plenty of awesomely painted/converted armys. It just depends on the person
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Post by: sexiest_hero
Hmm I can solve this Prob. Powergaming destroyed Painting, like so many elements of the hobby.
1.why bother painting an army if you just got it because the interweb said it's the most powerful. you don't care about the fluff, your army or having fun, so why care about painting.
example 'Ard boyz and other tournies ecourage you to
brink the most OP list you can, paining not required.
2.When the next codex comes out and nerfs the one before it, it's easy to sell unpainted minis
example check any trade section in any 40k fourum. Most people want unpainted minis. Point is, they are worth more unpainted. It's not like Power gamers spend time paints when fine tuning a list to win is the only goal.
3.No attachment to thier armies. Remember when everybody had an iron warriors list then Black templars, then eldar falchons spam, then tau castle, then Lash oblit plague, then nob bikers, and now Mech-vet IG.....
Nobody cares about fluff, or bothering to give a damn about thier army. "Yeah this is my slannesh daemon prince with a lash, and this is his twin brother, they don't have names or a back story, or a goal, or paint, I just heard I could win with them..."
In closing blaming new people is a straw-man tactic.Unpainted armies are easy to get and trade second hand and when all you care about is winning, why bother painting.
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Post by: CT GAMER
sexiest_hero wrote:Hmm I can solve this Prob. Powergaming destroyed Painting, like so many elements of the hobby.
1.why bother painting an army if you just got it because the interweb said it's the most powerful. you don't care about the fluff, your army or having fun, so why care about painting.
example 'Ard boyz and other tournies ecourage you to
brink the most OP list you can, paining not required.
2.When the next codex comes out and nerfs the one before it, it's easy to sell unpainted minis
example check any trade section in any 40k fourum. Most people want unpainted minis. Point is, they are worth more unpainted. It's not like Power gamers spend time paints when fine tuning a list to win is the only goal.
3.No attachment to thier armies. Remember when everybody had an iron warriors list then Black templars, then eldar falchons spam, then tau castle, then Lash oblit plague, then nob bikers, and now Mech-vet IG.....
Nobody cares about fluff, or bothering to give a damn about thier army. "Yeah this is my slannesh daemon prince with a lash, and this is his twin brother, they don't have names or a back story, or a goal, or paint, I just heard I could win with them..."
In closing blaming new people is a straw-man tactic.Unpainted armies are easy to get and trade second hand and when all you care about is winning, why bother painting.
Sad but true to some degree...
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Post by: Trench-Raider
I've said it before, and I'll say it again now:
With the availability of inexpensive third world painting services (a number of folks in my local historical gaming group have used "Fernando" in Sri Lanka and are happy with the result), there is simply no legitimate excuse not to have painted models.
TR
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
sexiest_hero wrote:Hmm I can solve this Prob. Powergaming destroyed Painting, like so many elements of the hobby.
1.why bother painting an army if you just got it because the interweb said it's the most powerful. you don't care about the fluff, your army or having fun, so why care about painting.
example 'Ard boyz and other tournies ecourage you to
brink the most OP list you can, paining not required.
2.When the next codex comes out and nerfs the one before it, it's easy to sell unpainted minis
example check any trade section in any 40k fourum. Most people want unpainted minis. Point is, they are worth more unpainted. It's not like Power gamers spend time paints when fine tuning a list to win is the only goal.
3.No attachment to thier armies. Remember when everybody had an iron warriors list then Black templars, then eldar falchons spam, then tau castle, then Lash oblit plague, then nob bikers, and now Mech-vet IG.....
Nobody cares about fluff, or bothering to give a damn about thier army. "Yeah this is my slannesh daemon prince with a lash, and this is his twin brother, they don't have names or a back story, or a goal, or paint, I just heard I could win with them..."
In closing blaming new people is a straw-man tactic.Unpainted armies are easy to get and trade second hand and when all you care about is winning, why bother painting.
Somewhat forceful but I'd say there was some truth in this.
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Post by: BossZagg
KingCracker wrote:Although I agree with you to some extents, youve got to realize that this hobby has alot of different elements in it that draw people to it for some reason or another. And not everyone will share the same opinion on that element.
Sure your into this the the dynamic of it all, and thats fine. I think I like fluff and customizing the most. I play fluffy armies, and read the backgrounds to get more into what Im doing. Others are more into the tournament aspect. They want to build the hardiest build and just beat the pants out of everyone. Painters like to spend WAY more time on how pretty their armies look, and really dont care if a certain squad is ACTUALLY codex correct. Then others are there to get out of the house, and hang with some friends shooting the breeze and blow the occasional vehicle up.
Are any of those people wrong? Not at all. They all enjoy different parts of the same game. And just because you want everything painted to play, doesnt mean that they all agree with on that.
couldn't have said it better myself. i dont paint often. but i dont because i get burned out on it. i enjoy it. but i play orks. horde army. I REFUSE TO PAINT HUNDREDS OF MINIS! IM LAZY!
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Post by: Newt-Of-Death
I Couldn't actually understand the first point at all, from a grammar perspective, but as for what I picked up from your 3 points, which is really just one point, I entirely disagree.
You wouldn't buy a chair and just not remove the plastic cover ever, because you may want to sell it at some point. If you did you would be crazy. I think its safe to say that when most people buy a model set, they get a strong sense of possession, and don't immediately think of selling it on.
I'm not sure what you were saying about the tournaments, probably because I haven't often been involved in them, but I know that most GW shops insist that your models are fully painted before using them in a tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zid said the most logical thing, in my opinion.
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Post by: LunaHound
I know we can never agree on this issue ( this is like the 3rd one i have posted in )
so just let me state some facts.
-There are players that got into warhammer for Hobby Aspect.
-There are players that got into warhammer for Gaming Aspect.
- A hastily painted army (unless you are a pro) will no doubt diminish the value of the army , not to mention time + paint invested .
Put the 3 together and i dont really think i need to explain further.
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Post by: Lukus83
I'm with Luna on this. In our gaming group we are pretty relaxed. We go out to have a few games and relax, so painting isn't high on the list of priorities.
That's not to say that we don't paint at all. Out of the 200 or so bugs I have I have painted approximately 40. Our IG guy has his whole force pretty much complete, and our chaos and Tau players are more into converting, so that's currently taking up a lot of their time.
At the moment the wife and I are trying to get pregnant, so when that happens I will be taking a few months break from the hobby and will crack out the paint pots in a big way. Until then it's slow going for me.
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Post by: Astronomicon
There are several reasons why I haven't bothered to paint my armies:
1) I was never a very artistic person and my painting skills are horrible.
2) I do not have a great deal of time to devote to painting.
3) My club generally plays very large games which is why I have almost 10,000 points of both Necrons and Daemonic Legions (11,000 in WHF). This amounts to over 500 models and the task of painting seems overwhelming.
4) I do not really enjoy the painting aspect of the hobby. I much prefer the gaming and socialization aspects.
5) I play in a casual club and no one cares if your armies are painted or not.
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Post by: MisterMoon
Thanks for the responses...
Let me add a few things. Some folks are criticizing my logic here and there, and that's ok. One thing that comes up a lot is that you are welcome to enjoy the hobby in whatever way you choose, and I couldn't agree more. I also enjoy the social element of table top gaming. However, I LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURE AGAINST FOLKS WHO LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURES.
There- I got that out.
I know some folks have been brushing up on their LSAT and are lashing out at me with logic, but I thought the above was a given. If someone loves to paint but doesn't play- odds are I'll never run into them at a gaming table so I couldn't care less about what they do. I am only concerned with the community of gamers that I encounter. I don't think I should, but I'll reiterate a few points. For starters, yes, if you choose to play the game of Warhammer, Flames, et. al. you need a rule book. After that you have a choice- purchase a 50-100 dollar kit of miniatures, put them together, AND PAINT THEM, or have a free piece of cardboard and write ORKS on it. One is cheaper and if all you want is to "play test your army for the 100th time" or "enjoy the social element of gaming" et. al. then the free piece of cardboard is the way to go. Let me give you an example. I feel that if you are going to play football, and spend the money to buy pads and a helmet, then why are you just playing two-hand touch. The same goes with table top gaming.
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Post by: jgemrich
After that you have a choice- purchase a 50-100 dollar kit of miniatures, put them together, AND PAINT THEM, or have a free piece of cardboard and write ORKS on it.
No one is trying to be a lawyer regarding your logic. The flaw lies in the choices you've provided to the readers. The spectrum of what you can do after buying a rule book and a box of miniatures is much broader then your limited choices. Now... if I want to play with you maybe I only have 1 choice, the former in the list above. But since I am not seeking you as an opponent my options truly are much broader.
I'm very glad you enjoy playing against a painted opponent and paint yours in return. I just don't believe you know what is "right" for every user over the spectrum of what we all consider to be our hobby.
Regards,
John
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Post by: children of filth
MisterMoon wrote: However, I LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURE AGAINST FOLKS WHO LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURES.
exactly, i agree.
MisterMoon wrote:you need a rule book. After that you have a choice- purchase a 50-100 dollar kit of miniatures, put them together, AND PAINT THEM, or have a free piece of cardboard and write ORKS on it.
this too.
I normally refuse to play against someone with armies that are entirely unpainted. I know this is a little unfair, but I've put a lot of time and effort into my armies, and if they haven't put any in besides assembling them, then I won't play them.
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Post by: MisterMoon
I think you'd answer your questions if you take both of my posts in more complete broad context. I have given breadth and depth in my discussion, however, you are trying to pigeon hole my thoughts into tightly constrained logic which takes much of my thoughts out of context.
I don't think it's "right" to not paint, but that many rationalize their decision not to. Say what you want, but imo you fall into this category. If someone still has fun playing with unpainted minis good for them. I will likely never play with them and couldn't care less what they have to say about it. However, they are free to do as they please.
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Post by: Redbeard
I think what happened was that the community of gamers allowed the Corporation to establish the community standards, rather than setting them themselves.
There's a definite community standard issue. Once upon a time - and still in historical communities - playing with unpainted models was simply not kosher. You wanted to play with someone else - you painted your models.
Once upon a time, Games Workshop upheld this standard. Once upon a time, GW would require that models be painted in order to play in their stores.
What happened was that GW chose to pursue more money. They decided that they'd sell more models if they started allowing unpainted models to be played in their stores. And, the community sheepishly followed along. Rather than the gamers saying, 'no, I won't play with you if your stuff is unpainted', they went along with GW's decision.
If you want the community standards to change, you need to be willing to be the guy who makes it happen. When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone asks for a game with their unpainted army, say no.
At the very least, lead by example. Play with painted armies. Make a point of complimenting other gamers you see playing with painted armies.
Otherwise, you're simply allowing GW to set the standard, and their standard is going to be the one that gets them the most money, not the one that provides the best gaming environment.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone...
The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Redbeard wrote:I think what happened was that the community of gamers allowed the Corporation to establish the community standards, rather than setting them themselves.
There's a definite community standard issue. Once upon a time - and still in historical communities - playing with unpainted models was simply not kosher. You wanted to play with someone else - you painted your models.
Even though I'm pro-painting I would point out that unpainted armies were frowned upon partly because of handling raw lead. This simply isn't the health issue it was due to the change over to white metal and plastic we have today.
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Post by: Redbeard
CT GAMER wrote:Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone...
The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...
I'm not a forum mod, I'm an article mod. :p I should write an article telling people to paint their armies.
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Post by: J.Black
When i first started playing (back in around 1989) It was an unwritten rule in the local GW that mini's had to be painted to be played with in the store. There were a couple of problems with this. firstly, it encouraged people to paint things as quickly as possible in order to get them on the table -this resulted in some profoundly ugly armies, and people not really bothering to improve their painting skills. Secondly, people like myself (who had school, sports, and not a whole heap of free time) who could paint well, but not quickly were left feeling ostracized. I think the current approach (in GW anyway) is great. When i started collecting again, i bought a few things to try out my painting on and get a decent army scheme worked out. Now I'm happy with my paining, i wanted to get a few games in whilst i finish off the painting so, i bought the units i needed a few weeks ago or so. Happily, i can now play with my toys and work on making them look great without the pressure of having to have them painted quickly just in order to have a game! I can see where Redbeard is coming from and, mostly, agree. A fully painted army should be every hobbyists end goal; It's certainly mine. Unfortunately, i paint at a ridiculously slow speed and, if things go well, i should be finished in about 6 months. In short, I'm glad that i can play at my local store with a largely un-painted army and not be made to feel like I've farted in an elevator every time i pull out my army case. I am more of a painter/converter than a gamer; i get more enjoyment out of people looking at my painting than i do from winning games
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Post by: LunaHound
Here is what it comes down for me.
- Do i think painted miniatures are more fun to play against? ( most of the time yes, however... leave the rest to your imagination )
- Will i respect the war gamers that chose to play warhammer for gaming not hobby? Yes i will. Thus it matters not whether they are painted or not.
- Will i think people that doesnt paint are not putting the minis to full use hence they might as well as play with cut out paper representing their armies?
No , because i fully understand and acknowledge that opinion is only based on ones that doesnt mind painting.
Thats like me turning the question around and asking the painters " do you always paint ALL your minis to the best quality to your ability? " If your answer is "no not always" then , please no double standard.
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Post by: MisterMoon
I paint all my minis at my best ability. I have learned ways to turn out painted stuff quick enough to get it on the table and enjoy it
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Post by: LunaHound
MisterMoon wrote:I paint all my minis at my best ability. I have learned ways to turn out painted stuff quick enough to get it on the table and enjoy it
Yes, but thats you.
But i know PLENTY of people that spends more time on character minis compared to the normal rank and file "table top quality" minis.
How does this phenomenon work then?
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Post by: J.Black
I treat characters as centrepieces for my army (you can't imagine how long it takes to convert SoB's :( ). They are the ones that i treat myself to painting after finishing up a few troops or a tank.
I think people spend less time on the rank and file, purely because they generally spend less time on the board. It's a bit like putting a lot of effort into the faces on your models; they are the bits that peoples eyes will be drawn to and, hanece, the bits you want to look best.
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Post by: LunaHound
J.Black wrote:I treat characters as centrepieces for my army (you can't imagine how long it takes to convert SoB's :( ). They are the ones that i treat myself to painting after finishing up a few troops or a tank.
I think people spend less time on the rank and file, purely because they generally spend less time on the board. It's a bit like putting a lot of effort into the faces on your models; they are the bits that peoples eyes will be drawn to and, hanece, the bits you want to look best.
Yes , but i was trying to make a point to the crowd that thinks if we dont paint the minis ( then its not using the mini to its full potential and we might as well as play with paper )
thus if we dont paint them to the best to our abilities , then thats also not using it to its potential either.
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Post by: Hordicant
MisterMoon wrote:I paint all my minis at my best ability. I have learned ways to turn out painted stuff quick enough to get it on the table and enjoy it
Come see me and introduce yourself to me @ Phoenix Games as that is obviously where you are talking about.
Name is John Ludlam, you've probably seen me there before if you frequent it with any seriousness as I practically call it my second home. I'd love to meet you so I know that when you do bring your armies I can make a judgment upon your claims to painting. Because you are seriously missing out on some of the funnest people to play with.
But as a whole, unless you bring someone with you, there's no point i you coming up because I don't know anyone up there with a completely painted army on casual game days.
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Post by: slann
Well I tell you being a former red shirt it is hard to paint all day for the store or show little kids who don't care how to paint makes it hard to go home and paint more even if it is for yourself .
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Post by: Lukus83
I also have to ask Mistermoon. Are you against people who don't paint at all, or everyone who hasn't painted their whole army?
If it's the former I can understand (to a degree...though I would still play as it's more games for me). If it's the latter then I find myself puzzled. Surely you realize it takes time and patience to get an army ready? Not everyone has time to churn out a battle ready army in a couple of months.
I personally bought about 6500 pts of nids and then started painting. Why? Because I wanted to get some games in with a variety of lists asap.
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Post by: Kaaihn
Works in progress, testing various things out, whatever, that's all understandable. In my opinion though, once you settle into a list we should start to see models getting paint on them. It is far far to easy to have a tabletop quality army to give excuses and never accomplish anything.
I will say I prefer not to play armies that are primarily bare plastic or bare metal models. Seriously, you can't use a $3 can of spray paint? Really? I don't care if you are just testing something, prime that thing please.
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Post by: theo2009
There is no doubt that painted armies do look better. However I am a little bit of a perfectionist and it takes me forever to paint models. To paint one model is around 12-15 hours. They do usualy look a little above average.
Anyone that is not a perfectionist, in my mind has no excuse. By using the army painters products. All you need is a few things.
1)one of army painters coloured primers or GWs primer
2)get at least 3 other colours on the models fairly neatly
3)give a dip in quickshade or paint it on for a little more control
I helped my friend get his stuff ready for a tournament last minute with this stuff. We got 40 space marines, 4 rhinos, a landrainder, 5 terminators and a chaplin painted between the 2 of us in around 12 hours each.The steps we took were,
1)Primed models white with GW spray primer.
2)painted metal parts with boltgun metal
3)painted snakebite leather for the leather parts
4)red for eyes, elven flesh for skin
5)blue on rim of shoulder pads, insignias and part of the weapons
6)dipped them in the quick shade
I wish I had some picks to show. Goto the army painter site there picks are around the same quality that came out of what we did.
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Post by: Lukus83
Well, where I am it's hard to find a decent tin of spray paint so I do all my base coating by hand. It adds a lot of time. That plus my wife HATES the hobby so I get maybe 2 evenings a week to actually do some painting...and that's if something doesn't come up or if I'm not bored or daunted (200+ models does that to a person).
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Post by: chromedog
I won't field an unpainted army (or units).
I came into 40k via napoleonics and WW2. The former had a "you want to field it, you paint it" attitude that encouraged the painting (as the period WAS about bright uniforms). The latter was more about getting some colour on them to tell them apart. Green v grey.
I prefer to play against painted armies.
When my club has "photo days", unpainted armies get ignored. If you want to see pics of your armies, then paint them. It works to light a fire under their butts sometimes it requires a raging conflagration though.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
CT GAMER wrote:Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone... /quote]
The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...
Moderators are allowed to have an opinion and express it.
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Post by: jgemrich
MisterMoon wrote:I think you'd answer your questions if you take both of my posts in more complete broad context. I have given breadth and depth in my discussion, however, you are trying to pigeon hole my thoughts into tightly constrained logic which takes much of my thoughts out of context.
I am taking you to task in your broad challenge of one person's idea of how to enjoy the hobby. You've tried to explain why but you do it with the expectation that you are "right". I really don't have any questions we will agree to disagree.
I don't think it's "right" to not paint, but that many rationalize their decision not to. Say what you want, but imo you fall into this category.
Before you put me in the category of someone who rationalizes my decision not to paint... I never said I don't paint in my posts or play with painted figures. I just defend those that choose not to. I don't try to put an expectation on others and how they should enjoy their hobby or rationalize why they do or don't do something. It isn't my place.
http://jgemrich.smugmug.com/ http://coolminiornot.com/artist/jgemrich or click on my gallery link here for a few "highlights".
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Post by: CT GAMER
Kilkrazy wrote:CT GAMER wrote:Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone... /quote]
The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...
Moderators are allowed to have an opinion and express it.
encouraging people to berate other members goes beyond this, especially when you have a "MOD" title.
Wargaming has always had a segment of people that are elitist. This isn't shocking. Encouraging elitism in a community and encouraging berating other members who don't conform to this elitism is simply sad...
I rarely field an unpainted model. I like to convert and to paint. That being said I also know that the earth doesn't orbit around me. If you refuse to play an unpainted army or against someone with one then so be it, but you don't need to be a dick about it...
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Post by: Newt-Of-Death
Un-painted armies just looks awful.
I dont have time to paint all mine, but Im munching my way through it as best I can.
At least undercoat, foundation and wash.
You can do almost any army this way and itl look better than gray.
But there isnt much need to argue on this matter, unless your actually in each others clubs.
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Post by: Henners91
I feel I must counter-rant:
I recently finished my Blood Raven army, I have about 8 unpainted models out of around about 70... and two vehicles that still need assembling: THAT I would persecute me for.
But now I'm starting (finally) an Imperial Guard army; and I just started on some shock troops.
It took me about 3 hours last night to undercoat, base and add on camo patterns for 4 shock troopers; I still have to highlight and add on details and washes (this isn't even including assembly of course).
Now I intend to focus primarily on infantry with this guard army... if I get a whole platoon or more and decide to paint them to MY standards (which I've set pretty highliy) that's going to take me many, many, MANY hours: Time that I really don't have at the moment, so, if I decide I'd like to try out my guard army that I've paid for and get some battle experience with them under my belt... am I going to attract frowns because the majority probably won't be painted? Even if the minority are painted to a good standard?
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Post by: Redbeard
CT GAMER wrote: encouraging people to berate other members goes beyond this, especially when you have a "MOD" title. How so? Look at this from a philosophical standpoint. There are two basic stances here; 1) People should be allowed to do whatever they want. 2) People should be required to meet some basic community standard. Part of something being a community standard is the idea that the community requires adherence to the standard. As long as the community stays quiet on the issue, there is no community standard, and so stance 1 wins by default. At the moment, the people who believe in allowing people to do whatever they want are willing to fight for their stance. They create negative labels to use (elitist), and by doing so marginalize the opinions of those who wish for a minimum standard. If you call me an elitist, you can then ignore anything else I say as the ravings of an elitist... If you want there to be a community standard, you have to fight for it too. That fight involves creating the peer pressure required to have people want to change their behaviour so that they can be accepted by the community. And the way to create that peer pressure is by making public comments about the issue. These can be positive reinforcement (complimentary comments for people who post pics of their painted models) and they can also be negative reinforcement (derissive comments when people post pics of their unpainted models). Perhaps it is the word berate that you object to. I don't mean that you call a person a name. I mean that if you see a battle report with pics of unpainted miniatures, you say something like "eh, that looks okay, but it would have been cool if the armies had been painted." You cannot have a community standard unless the community actively seeks to meet that standard. And making comments, both positive and negative, are the only way to go about this. --- As a side note, I'd also like to point out that most people who say 'you don't need to paint your miniatures' still want a community standard, just one that doesn't involve painting. Is it "elitist" to refuse to play against someone who cannot afford to purchase authentic GW miniatures, but who can field an army of appropriately-sized cardboard markers (See poorhammer)? It does not impact gameplay at all - if all you care about is the gameplay, why is this an issue? This ties directly into Luna's financial comment as well. I'll grant that the price of a miniature goes down when it is painted, but it also goes down when it is assembled. Assembled models are fixed, whereas unassembled models can be customized by the owner. Therefore, there is a financial disincentive to assembling your models. Why don't people field armies of folded paper markers, or empty bases? Because there is a community standard that says you have to play with assembled miniatures. Being in favour of community standards does not make one elitist. Apparently you believe that being in favour of community standards in excess of what you personally want to do does.
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Post by: pombe
Redbeard wrote:
How so? Look at this from a philosophical standpoint. There are two basic stances here;
1) People should be allowed to do whatever they want.
2) People should be required to meet some basic community standard.
I follow #2. But the community standard I choose to follow has nothing to do with painting.
I use the Boolean logic:
Is my opponent TFG?
if true, don't play against him/her.
if false, play and have fun, regardless of what their army looks like.
I will bring a painted army, but all I ask in return from my opponent is that they are not TFG.
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Post by: Hordicant
pombe wrote:
I follow #2. But the community standard I choose to follow has nothing to do with painting.
I use the Boolean logic:
Is my opponent TFG?
if true, don't play against him/her.
if false, play and have fun, regardless of what their army looks like.
I will bring a painted army, but all I ask in return from my opponent is that they are not TFG.
/agree, I hate TFGs.
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Post by: Loki_TBC
Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
I gotta disagree quite strongly here. Your first statement that people who don't paint their figs are noobs is simply inflammatory so i'll set it aside.
As for painting figures being the point of playing tabletop games, perhaps that is true for you, but who are you to say that is everyone's motivation? I have a new skaven army that I will NOT be painting for a few reasons.
1) Time - I work 10-14 hours a day, when I get time, I'd rather play than paint.
2) Value - Sure, an army painted by someone that has a clue looks nice, but it also drops the re-sale value right into the toilet. What if, in 2 years time, I want to play a new army. Am I stuck relegating my models to a box in the closet in case I ever get the uger to play them again? Not if they are unpainted! Unpainted models are easier to trade and sell.
3) Ease of switching weapons - My Ultra army is painted and looks great. Sadly, any time I want to change a weapon, I end up playing the paint touch-up game for an hour or two. If they were unpainted, I'd swap the weapons and move on with my life.
In this months WD, Jervis talks about how great painting is and how it makes us a niche hobby.
Jervis goes on to say that GW will never make prepaints for this reason. That's a cute spin, but rather I think that he and GW are aware that a thriving aftermarket would seriously cut into their profits. Right now, the combinations of the effort of paint removal and reassembly and the culture of painting snobs that GW has fostered have devalued painted models to the point where most people simply buy new.
If there were pre-paints you could have essentially "rent-an-armies" where you buy them, play them till you get bored and trade for or sell and buy a new one. It alters their business model significantly and that is something they certainly would not like.
In closing: If you want to paint, paint. If your the kind of meathead, however, that gives others crap about not having their army painted then I wouldn't want to play you anyway.
In response to REDBEARD's comment:
Is it "elitist" to refuse to play against someone who cannot afford to purchase authentic GW miniatures, but who can field an army of appropriately-sized cardboard markers (See poorhammer)? It does not impact gameplay at all - if all you care about is the gameplay, why is this an issue?
With true line of sight being introduced in 40K, the use of non- GW figs would affect the game, so yes, I would have a problem with it. On the other hand, in WHFB - be my guest!
I don't object to there being a standard, but as others before me have stated, I object that painting has to be the minimum standard.
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Post by: odinsgrandson
Painted minis can also go for more on a resell, it all depends on how well they're done, and how much people like your color scheme, and whether or not people actually want that model and not the parts for a conversion.
I would like to disagree with the original post. I don't think we're seeing fewer people painting either more or less than we used to. There have always been a lot of unpainted armies out there, and there will always be.
Locally, we have a good number of very well painted forces, and a decent number of unpainted forces. I have to say, a lot of the painting snobs at my LGS have left 40k and are painting Warmachine or Hordes forces instead.
Altogether, though, I think there are local painting metas just like there are local gaming metas. The meta at my LGS has us at some pretty competitive levels, our local painting competitions are fierce. That drives some people to paint better, but it unfortunately drives some people away from the painting altogether.
When I lived in Denver, the LGS I went to the most had almost no unpainted forces, and the painting was fairly good overall. So, I'm convinced it is all local.
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Post by: Redbeard
Loki_TBC wrote:
In response to REDBEARD's comment:
Is it "elitist" to refuse to play against someone who cannot afford to purchase authentic GW miniatures, but who can field an army of appropriately-sized cardboard markers (See poorhammer)? It does not impact gameplay at all - if all you care about is the gameplay, why is this an issue?
With true line of sight being introduced in 40K, the use of non- GW figs would affect the game, so yes, I would have a problem with it. On the other hand, in WHFB - be my guest!
What part of 'appropriately-sized' would prevent true line of sight from still working. It's really not that hard to measure a rhino and a marine and cut your cardboard appropriately.
In addition, I have sold quite a few miniatures. The ones I have painted have always sold for more than I paid for them, while the ones that I did not paint have sold for less. It's really a matter of how well the miniatures are painted, not simply whether they are or not that makes the difference. Poorly painted minis lose value for the reasons you describe. Well-painted minis gain value.
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Post by: wyomingfox
LunaHound wrote:
For the people that insist on others to hastily paint their army for the sake of visual appeal for your gaming experience i suggest you visit the swap shop.
There you'll see the heart breaking stories of people painting their army , some even had them commission painted.
At the end of the day, all the effort , time , $ spent on it fetches them below 20% off retail value , due to the buyer want to strip the paint off.
Well the idea of having a painted army is more for the owner's personal enjoyment not his opponent's. Automatically Appended Next Post: Redbeard wrote:
This ties directly into Luna's financial comment as well. I'll grant that the price of a miniature goes down when it is painted, but it also goes down when it is assembled. Assembled models are fixed, whereas unassembled models can be customized by the owner. Therefore, there is a financial disincentive to assembling your models. Why don't people field armies of folded paper markers, or empty bases? Because there is a community standard that says you have to play with assembled miniatures.
I don't know if it so much external factors as internal factors; for example, people might get a inner sence of pride and accomplishment in fielding assembled or painted models. It is just that maybe some people run into deminishing returns when it comes to such accomplishments. For one person, simply assembling the models meets his sense of accomplishement and painting the models would not add any further meaningful sense of achievemnet. Where as someone like me doesn't feel aduquate achievemnet until a model is painted to a very high standard.
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Post by: J-Roc77
I do agree, I like to see both armies painted on the table. However, my army of orks is about 90% painted at 1500pts, 75% at 2k. If people are making it towards their goal, good for them. Like stated above, the painted army is for the personal enjoyment of the owner/painter. I know plenty of people who paint painstakingly slow, or ask others to paint for them, and I am ok with that.
As a casual gamer, I only require 2 things from my opponent, 1. They are not rude. and 2. We both have fun!
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Post by: jgemrich
Redbeard wrote:
Look at this from a philosophical standpoint. There are two basic stances here;
1) People should be allowed to do whatever they want.
2) People should be required to meet some basic community standard.
I agree here.
Part of something being a community standard is the idea that the community requires adherence to the standard. As long as the community stays quiet on the issue, there is no community standard, and so stance 1 wins by default
.
This is an interesting point. I'd argue that perhaps 2 wins by default. If you are outside looking in I'd bet most folks would say painting is required. I'd also argue that most "communities" require some amount of effort to paint and that the pressure is applied. The reason is that if I set up a game with someone I usually get asked permission to play an "unpainted unit. Until they get to know me and I don't hold that standard.
At the moment, the people who believe in allowing people to do whatever they want are willing to fight for their stance. They create negative labels to use (elitist), and by doing so marginalize the opinions of those who wish for a minimum standard. If you call me an elitist, you can then ignore anything else I say as the ravings of an elitist...
The pro painting stance is hardly elitist and I don't think I've seen one of the "Pro what ever you want crowd" claim elitism. I certainly don't think the "pro paint" community is that way. In fact we (painters-yes I paint) are generally very inclusive and try to encourage others to paint their figures or show tips on how to paint...post articles and give a lot of theirselves to get others to pick up a brush. I'd argue that propainters do a considerable amount more for the hobby on average versus the "do as you please group."
What I find odd is the refusal of playing someone who isn't fully painted or even part painted. How do you introduce someone to the hobby? I don't get where the harm is? Perhaps it is permissive but I believe if you let someone into your world they will pick it up. Positive vs. Negative reinforcement.
If you want there to be a community standard, you have to fight for it too. That fight involves creating the peer pressure required to have people want to change their behaviour so that they can be accepted by the community. And the way to create that peer pressure is by making public comments about the issue. These can be positive reinforcement (complimentary comments for people who post pics of their painted models) and they can also be negative reinforcement (derissive comments when people post pics of their unpainted models).
Hmmm... I'm not sure the standard needs to be fought for.
You cannot have a community standard unless the community actively seeks to meet that standard. And making comments, both positive and negative, are the only way to go about this.
That is not the only way. Dakka Dakka runs painting contests, the site runs a "how to forum", it hosts a gallery. These ways passively show that painting is an active and encouraged part of the hobby. In your own LGS you might run clinics or other contests.
---
As a side note, I'd also like to point out that most people who say 'you don't need to paint your miniatures' still want a community standard, just one that doesn't involve painting. Is it "elitist" to refuse to play against someone who cannot afford to purchase authentic GW miniatures, but who can field an army of appropriately-sized cardboard markers (See poorhammer)? It does not impact gameplay at all - if all you care about is the gameplay, why is this an issue?
Your point is taken...yes.. at some point we all draw a line where the hobby starts. For you the minimum to participate in the hobby is a rulebook, figs, and three colors. For me it is a rule book and figs and to the guy with a Bootleg PDF and Cardboard chits I'm probably elitist. However... I don't fight for my 'community standard'. I don't go online and call out the cardboard chit guys to tell them they need to shape up and buy figures. Come to think of it though.... my first box of Warhammer came with cardboard chits of Orc/Goblins vs Empire.
I don't think it makes me less concerened about the hobby or where it heads... I just believe it is up to the individual to determine where they want to draw the line. I mean... I've lined up against Grey Plastic Black Reach Orks that were "Necrons" (new guy getting into the game). I've lined up against empty bases that were war walkers (guy said he forgot them... maybe yes...maybe he neve bought them... meh).
Being in favour of community standards does not make one elitist. Apparently you believe that being in favour of community standards in excess of what you personally want to do does.
Again... have I missed the post in this thread where the paint guys were called elitist? I think the pro paint guys threw this out as a defense mechanism vs. their points.
Good stuff,
John
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Post by: eimaj
Loki_TBC wrote:
In closing: If you want to paint, paint. If your the kind of meathead, however, that gives others crap about not having their army painted then I wouldn't want to play you anyway.
So true. The fact that time is a limited resource and money is not equal across the board, you should be willing to give a little slack instead of being TFG.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
What? I hope nobody tells HBMC that, what with his multi-thousand dollar Legion of Grey that he has been collecting for years.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
For me I like the gaming, the modeling and the painting. They are all facets of the hobby and while I am better at some than others, exploring them all and trying to attain a higher level of skill at them is most enjoyable.
It seems some in the local scene only want the gaming aspect. I've been to more than a few tournaments where every other army or every third army is painted by someone other than the owner. Now I would not suggest that having a figure, unit or otherwise filling in some slot with a nicely painted piece you obtained elsewhere was somehow not acceptable, but when whole armies are farmed out for painting it saddens me. There is a whole great adventure in building skills and learning new things that these players miss out on. I can always pick them out too; no real conversion work, nothing spectacular in the paint job, fairly clinical and unimaginative for the most part.
For me, I'd not turn down a game because someone fielded unpainted figs but I would encourage them to paint and I would not be above some good natured ribbing if they didn't show some kind of progress.
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Post by: LunaHound
wyomingfox wrote:LunaHound wrote:
For the people that insist on others to hastily paint their army for the sake of visual appeal for your gaming experience i suggest you visit the swap shop.
There you'll see the heart breaking stories of people painting their army , some even had them commission painted.
At the end of the day, all the effort , time , $ spent on it fetches them below 20% off retail value , due to the buyer want to strip the paint off.
Well the idea of having a painted army is more for the owner's personal enjoyment not his opponent's.
Yes thats my point , it was for people that insist " i cant enjoy playing if the other guy's army isnt painted"
Hence you have see some people quoted me into their sigs from a year ago " what? does the lack of painting not bring the realism you imagine your little plastic soldier to be?" or something like that.
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Post by: Trench-Raider
2) Value - Sure, an army painted by someone that has a clue looks nice, but it also drops the re-sale value right into the toilet. What if, in 2 years time, I want to play a new army. Am I stuck relegating my models to a box in the closet in case I ever get the uger to play them again? Not if they are unpainted! Unpainted models are easier to trade and sell.
That's nonsense my friend.
Painting an army does NOT destroy it's resale value. If anything it usually enhances it greatly. Because of the fact (as we have seen in this thread) many people lack the skill/don't have time to paint/are too lazy/etc there is certainly a market for painted armies.
Granted if your army has an appalling paint job, the above statement is certainly true. Likewise if you make the mistake of trying to sell painted models on Ebay, you will be disapointed. (as an aside, I actually seek out horrible little kid painted models on ebay and buy them for pennies on the dollar with a mind to strip and repaint them) But the market does exist.
I'm generally considered to be slightly above average in painting skill. I generally get high marks in painting scores and have won "best army" a couple of time in historical competitions, but I'm never going to be remotely competative in high end painting contests like the Golden Daemon or the events you see at ReaperCon. But I could certainly be said to "have a clue", and sell painted armies at a profit all the time. Being a very fast painter, combined with the trait of growing tired of any army after a few years means this happens all the time. Just this last weekend at a local gaming convention I sold a 15mm 12th Century Byzantine army based for Field of Glory for 500$. The material cost for the figures was a little over 120$ or so. I of course turned right around and sank a large chunk of this into a bunch of unpainted lead in the dealer's room!
So please don't make the blanket unsuportable statement that painted figures have no resale value, because it simply is not true.
TR
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Post by: LunaHound
Trench-Raider wrote:2) Value - Sure, an army painted by someone that has a clue looks nice, but it also drops the re-sale value right into the toilet. What if, in 2 years time, I want to play a new army. Am I stuck relegating my models to a box in the closet in case I ever get the uger to play them again? Not if they are unpainted! Unpainted models are easier to trade and sell.
That's nonsense my friend.
Painting an army does NOT destroy it's resale value. If anything it usually enhances it greatly. Because of the fact (as we have seen in this thread) many people lack the skill/don't have time to paint/are too lazy/etc there is certainly a market for painted armies.
Granted if your army has an appalling paint job, the above statement is certainly true. Likewise if you make the mistake of trying to sell painted models on Ebay, you will be disapointed. (as an aside, I actually seek out horrible little kid painted models on ebay and buy them for pennies on the dollar with a mind to strip and repaint them) But the market does exist.
I'm generally considered to be slightly above average in painting skill. I generally get high marks in painting scores and have won "best army" a couple of time in historical competitions, but I'm never going to be remotely competative in high end painting contests like the Golden Daemon or the events you see at ReaperCon. But I could certainly be said to "have a clue", and sell painted armies at a profit all the time. Being a very fast painter, combined with the trait of growing tired of any army after a few years menas this happens all the time. Just this last weekend at a local gaming convention I sold a 15mm 12th Century Byzantine army based for Field of Glory for 500$. The material cost for the figures was a little over 120$ or so.
So please don't make the blanket unsuportable statement that painted figures have no resale value, because it simply is not true.
TR
it does sir , im sorry but it does. i dont want to mention any specific names , but it saddens me ( im sure the guy selling it was hit even worse ) to see his whole nicely painted army
sold for 70% retail price.
If you follow ebay or swapshop , you'll see unless the painted army scores around atleast a 7 ( dakka gallery ) , it will NOT even fetch the retail value.
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Post by: Shaman
ITT Paint nazis.
Its pretty simple.. Refuse to play unpainted. Be the rude person you are. If I turn up with an unpainted army, laugh in my face, and refuse to play. Say I forfeit due to my army being unpainted.
Then you wont need to post on dakka your sadness at unpainted armies.
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Post by: ChaosDave
People not painting their minis has been going on for a long long time, it isn't a new phenomenon. I remember back in the early 90's you would see a lot of unpainted stuff especially from so called "power gamers". So the "anymore" portion of your statement isn't really all that accurate.
Personally I think it's actually inconsiderate to your opponent to play with unpainted miniatures. There are some exceptions to that rule; for example a friendly game where one or both players want to experiment with a new troop type or model. For this reason I have a personal rule that I will not play a game with any unpainted miniatures unless it's just a small experimental troop/vehicle choice and it's against one of my friends. Otherwise i only field fully painted armies.
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Post by: Solorg
First off, shame to ye unpainters! Shame! Your army looks like crud! Have some pride, mon!
I respect anyone who tries to at least put some paint on a model. It doesn't have to be pro. But let it at least look good. There ARE games for people who don't want to paint (ie D&D minis). But I agree, why buy boxes of models and then NOT paint them?
That said, painting can take a long time to do, and I think most people will have some painted stuff and to go with it, mostly unpainted stuff. It is a journey - always more to paint! But keep at it! I don't field models unless they're painted. The rest stay home on the painting table. This is what motivates me to finish. You may find that you enjoy this sort of self-torture also.
So spray it black, highlight gold, DONE! At least it isn't grey! Take heart and join the club!
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Post by: wyomingfox
Well, I really think that us "painters" need to take a step back for a second.
Taking pride in our accomplishments in our art works is a personal inner reward. One that is not going to be shared nessessarily by others.
I know several friends, who are a joy to play against, that gain no personal fullfillment what so ever from painting thier miniatures. To them painting miniatures is about as fun as mowing grass.
For those of you who think that they will start enjoying painting once they get the knack of it, are missing the point that just because someone is talented at an activity or becomes good at an activity does not mean they will enjoy the activity. For example, I was a whiz at math in High School and College. I scored in the top 5% of the class ritualistically. In College, I regularily broke the test curve by scoring 97+. However, I did not nor do not enjoy math.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I don't enjoy painting, as such. I enjoy the satisfaction of playing with painted armies.
Some of my armies are ones I've painted myself, some were commissioned and some were bought secondhand.
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Post by: Khornholio
I believe a lot of what Wyomingfox has written is true. If you don't like it, you probably won't learn to like it.
But a lot of it too is a matter of perception. I make a conscious decision everyday to paint or not. I make time for it because I enjoy it so much. When I paint it is like deep meditation where my mind is focused solely on the mini in front of me. Other ways of using up spare time are way too unproductive. TV is gak. Most films are gak. PC games are crack gak. All of them are either passive or frustrating at times. Mini painting can be frustrating, but it is never passive. You get better with each one until you get to the point that your regular guys look like the armies out of White Dwarf. It takes a long time. It took me almost 20 years to get to that point and probably a mountain of cash and time, but now I am so happy with the results of painting that I can't stop. I'll be painting until the day I die. Even if my hands are blown off and I'm blind in one eye, I'll figure some way around it.
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Post by: Trench-Raider
If you follow ebay or swapshop , you'll see unless the painted army scores around atleast a 7 ( dakka gallery ) , it will NOT even fetch the retail value.
Read my complete post.
The problem is that you are talking about Ebay. Ebay is a notoriously bad venue to sell painted figures/armies and most people know it. The market and venue in which you sell is very important. I sell my work to other gamers at the local shop or take it to conventions. But decent paint jobs do NOT destroy the resale value.
TR
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Post by: wyomingfox
Khornholio wrote:But a lot of it too is a matter of perception. I make a conscious decision everyday to paint or not. I make time for it because I enjoy it so much. When I paint it is like deep meditation where my mind is focused solely on the mini in front of me. Other ways of using up spare time are way too unproductive. TV is gak. Most films are gak. PC games are crack gak. All of them are either passive or frustrating at times. Mini painting can be frustrating, but it is never passive. You get better with each one until you get to the point that your regular guys look like the armies out of White Dwarf. It takes a long time. It took me almost 20 years to get to that point and probably a mountain of cash and time, but now I am so happy with the results of painting that I can't stop. I'll be painting until the day I die. Even if my hands are blown off and I'm blind in one eye, I'll figure some way around it.
Couldn't have said it better
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Post by: Frazzled
This thread has been reported.
1. Lets keep is calm people
2. moving to discussions.
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Post by: Polonius
This is a great thread, it's like a Christmas Special on television: the characters change, but the plot, the lessons, and the symbols all stay constant. Let's see what we have:
1) The smug feeling of superiority some posters have over they're ability to apply paint to toys.
2) Pathetic excuses for not having anything close to a painted army, including the classic chestnut "I'm a perfectionist and I paint really slowly." But somehow having a black primered army doesn't bother them, only having an army with base colors laid down would bother them. One person asserted that they couldn't afford paints. Really? Any veteran hobbyist could sell/give you a starter paint set, or tell you were to get stuff cheap. For a basic paint job it's about a $20 buy in (can of primer, 4 paints, a scoop of dirt for basing, elmers glue, and 2 brushes).
3) Thinly veiled contempt towards people that don't paint, as if they were some lesser form of creature unfit to discuss or play games with the like of a painter.
4) The shockingly ridiculous willful ignorance that leads to statements like "if you don't want to paint, why not just use cardboard," as if a three dimensional figure with a gun and base is somehow no more representative than chits.
5) The equally confounding willfull ignorance of those that seem to think that nobody could ever enjoy 40k without painting, and that removing any one aspect of the hobby makes a persons interest in the hobby beyond all belief.
6) The bewildering posts that seem to assert that "the new generation" raised on "TV and video games" demand instant gratification. That would be true if GW was launched in 1948, but since it's been around roughly the same time as console gaming and cable TV, that reasoning seems a bit thin. Even the internet has been ubiquitous for a decade now.
7) and finally, just because it's fun, the classic example of a Mod reminding us that "Mods can have opinions." Which of course, as most readers of the OT can vouch for, really means, "Mods can have and post opinions that would get any other user scolded."
Here are my positions:
First, shut up and paint your damn army. If you don't' have time because of work, than hire a kid to throw some paint on it. If you want to paint it beautifully (and honestly, how many of those armies are finished? 5%? Fewer?), put a basecoast down, and add highlights and layers later.
Secondly, get off your high horse about painting. Yes, painted armies are good, and we should do all we can to encourage them, but the proliferation of unpainted armies is a result of many factors, including expansion of the gamer base, increased army sizes, dramatically increased model detail, and relaxation of standards. For fun, open up a white dwarf from 1992, and one from today. Compare the armies in the battle reports, and consider how much more time it would take to replicate the results from the current army. Between number of models, increased detail, and far higher standards I'm guessing it takes triple the time.
Third, realize that people have fun in different ways, and if you have unpainted stuff, you should work to paint it to enable others to have fun. If you see an unpainted army, maybe you should play a game so others can have fun. By loosening sphincters and putting some time into the hobby, we can all have a lot more fun.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
wyomingfox wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
What? I hope nobody tells HBMC that, what with his multi-thousand dollar Legion of Grey that he has been collecting for years.
He is the exception that proves the rule.
Also, H.B.M.C. has recently experimented with painting Necrons, so perhaps he will eventually paint the rest of his stuff.
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Post by: Frazzled
This is a great thread, it's like a Christmas Special on television: the characters change, but the plot, the lessons, and the symbols all stay constant. Let's see what we have:
1) The smug feeling of superiority some posters have over they're ability to apply paint to toys.
*** Mmm superiority, it warms my heart
2) Pathetic excuses for not having anything close to a painted army, including the classic chestnut "I'm a perfectionist and I paint really slowly." But somehow having a black primered army doesn't bother them, only having an army with base colors laid down would bother them. One person asserted that they couldn't afford paints. Really? Any veteran hobbyist could sell/give you a starter paint set, or tell you were to get stuff cheap. For a basic paint job it's about a $20 buy in (can of primer, 4 paints, a scoop of dirt for basing, elmers glue, and 2 brushes).
***That’s me right there. Its taken me years to finish my evolving demon army and its still not done.
3) Thinly veiled contempt towards people that don't paint, as if they were some lesser form of creature unfit to discuss or play games with the like of a painter.
***Unfit! Unclean!
4) The shockingly ridiculous willful ignorance that leads to statements like "if you don't want to paint, why not just use cardboard," as if a three dimensional figure with a gun and base is somehow no more representative than chits.
***I’ve used cardboard frequently. Works just fine for me actually.
5) The equally confounding willfull ignorance of those that seem to think that nobody could ever enjoy 40k without painting, and that removing any one aspect of the hobby makes a persons interest in the hobby beyond all belief.
***Back in my day, not only did we have to paint, we had to make our own paint! None of the GW premade paint for us.
6) The bewildering posts that seem to assert that "the new generation" raised on "TV and video games" demand instant gratification. That would be true if GW was launched in 1948, but since it's been around roughly the same time as console gaming and cable TV, that reasoning seems a bit thin. Even the internet has been ubiquitous for a decade now.
***Them youngins suck, bunch of hooligans!
7) and finally, just because it's fun, the classic example of a Mod reminding us that "Mods can have opinions." Which of course, as most readers of the OT can vouch for, really means, "Mods can have and post opinions that would get any other user scolded."
***Damn straight why the heck do you think we’re Mods? Its what we do. ITS ALL WE DO! Polonius…banned. Wyomingfox…banned…Frazzled…banned hey wait!
Automatically Appended Next Post: 7) and finally, just because it's fun, the classic example of a Mod reminding us that "Mods can have opinions." Which of course, as most readers of the OT can vouch for, really means, "Mods can have and post opinions that would get any other user scolded."
***Wait, OT, I do believe Polonius is making a dig at both me and KK. Polonius...Banned! (did i already been him? I lose count), Bob from Accounting...banned, Yakface...banned...
Seriously. Mods can and do have opinions. You may disagree with them, and some of them are more abrasive than others (looks in the mirror) but frankly too bad! We try to restrain ourselves, but power corrupts and we loves the power.
Remember, the Mod team is your last line of defense from this...
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Post by: malfred
wyomingfox wrote:
Well the idea of having a painted army is more for the owner's personal enjoyment not his opponent's.
This.
As much as I'd like to doll up my armies for other people's gratification, the most
important reason I apply the make-up to my models is also the most selfish. I do so
for my own pleasure.
Anything else is a bonus.
I do appreciate the inspiration a well painted army can provide across the tabletop, but
that's mostly between my opponent and his models.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
Ha .. total bollocks
obviously you forgot the laughing icon to show you were being ironic.
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Post by: Cane
Polonius ftw, agreed on what you said. The attitudes you described are borderline TFG or at least huge steps going down that direction especially when it comes to the attitude of people refusing to play against plastic grey armies and feeling holier than thou. Seems a bit hypocritical to have such a mindset since most of us probably learned through playing with plastic grey mini's as well.
Seems very counter productive to have an elitist attitude for our niche hobby and seems to take the fun and the hobby of playing toy soldiers a bit too seriously when one feels justified in looking down on others and refusing to game with a fellow hobbyist.
On the flipside if you're not showing any painting effort in a given period of time it can look "bad" but who knows what could be holding that person back especially in this economy. Situations like those I don't try to assume since life is too damn busy and filled with unexpected and unwanted drama.
In a social setting of wargamers one should follow the golden rule and even Dakka's number one rule of being polite - refusing to game with a fellow toy soldier general because his army is unpainted seems to go against the very spirit of the game and imo douchey/TFG. Why try to put down or make others mad in the niche that we both 'escape' to?
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Post by: MisterMoon
Redbeard wrote:Loki_TBC wrote:
In response to REDBEARD's comment:
Is it "elitist" to refuse to play against someone who cannot afford to purchase authentic GW miniatures, but who can field an army of appropriately-sized cardboard markers (See poorhammer)? It does not impact gameplay at all - if all you care about is the gameplay, why is this an issue?
With true line of sight being introduced in 40K, the use of non- GW figs would affect the game, so yes, I would have a problem with it. On the other hand, in WHFB - be my guest!
What part of 'appropriately-sized' would prevent true line of sight from still working. It's really not that hard to measure a rhino and a marine and cut your cardboard appropriately.
In addition, I have sold quite a few miniatures. The ones I have painted have always sold for more than I paid for them, while the ones that I did not paint have sold for less. It's really a matter of how well the miniatures are painted, not simply whether they are or not that makes the difference. Poorly painted minis lose value for the reasons you describe. Well-painted minis gain value.
This is a good point as I'd love to find someone sell me some minis painted or not. If they are painted I'll just simple green/brake fluid them. My only concern with buying minis once they are put together is how well they were prepped ie. mold lines, basing... etc so if a mini is painted I couldn't care less.
On a more speculative note- this is pure rationalization. I can't prove it but I know it when I see it. You don't want to paint a mini because of resale? I'm raising the BS flag on that. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes thats my point , it was for people that insist " i cant enjoy playing if the other guy's army isnt painted"
Hence you have see some people quoted me into their sigs from a year ago " what? does the lack of painting not bring the realism you imagine your little plastic soldier to be?" or something like that.
I refer back to my model train analogy. If I staple some HO tracks to a piece of cardboard and throw a train on it I'm technically into model trains. But am I anywhere near the other guy with a whole intricate city scape?
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Post by: carmachu
MisterMoon wrote:
I grade my painting as just slightly above average. However, that average is hard to judge as so few folks paint anymore. I live in northeast Atlanta. We have a Games Workshop store and a very large private shop. The guys who work at the Games Workshop have virtually nothing painted in their own private possession- even their former black shirt had army caseS (with an S) of unpainted minis. The private store is a slightly different story as the store owners have vast collections that are beautifully painted, but many GOOD gamers show up half painted- or not painted at all. I got into the hobby with the idea that everyone painted their armies, and would be ashamed to bring unpainted minis to a gaming table. At this point I have no idea where I got into this assumption. However, it'd seem to me that if you spend 50 bucks on a model kit you'd want to do more than just glue it together, more importantly if you invest all the money and time into this hobby you'd want to do it right and paint; and if you didn't know how, you'd want to learn. I know several folks will think I'm elitist or call me names like paint nazi et al. but I seriously did get into this hobby for the visual stimulation from seeing a fully modeled miniaturization of a futuristic or fantasy battlefield.
I've heard all the excuses. I say save your money and get a RTSG on the PC or XBOX. I get told that they enjoy the game and the social element. I say quite seriously that what you do with your money is your business but if you aren't going to do it right, save that money and just a piece of paper and write ORKS on it, instead of buying the fifty dollar kit of orks. One analogy I use which I think is pretty strong. If I staple some HO tracks to a plain piece of wood and put a train on it I'm technically into model trains. However, I'm no where near they guy who's got the entire city scape built up. Now I understand that you must START with some HO tracks stapled to plain wood, but it seems many gamers are happy stopping right there and never fully appreciating the hobby.
To sum it up- if both armies aren't painted then to me the visual element is lost and I'm 12 years old again playing Risk. I don't get the stimulating simulation feel that I get from seeing two painted armies, even half decently painted.
Wow, how elitest of you. Who crowned you king and dicate what the hobby is? Who are you to dictate what is good fun/bad fun?
So people paint, some people like to play. Some people like to model. Some like to do everything.
Different people approach the game from different angles. I would rathe rplay a good person and opponent with an unpainted army then TFG or an A-hole with a golden demon level one every time. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote:
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
Really? And here I thought the point of table top games was to, you know, actually play the game. Otherwise if you want to paint there are a ton of other models you can paint.....
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Post by: MisterMoon
Polonius wrote:This is a great thread, it's like a Christmas Special on television: the characters change, but the plot, the lessons, and the symbols all stay constant. Let's see what we have:
First, shut up and paint your damn army. If you don't' have time because of work, than hire a kid to throw some paint on it. If you want to paint it beautifully (and honestly, how many of those armies are finished? 5%? Fewer?), put a basecoast down, and add highlights and layers later.
Secondly, get off your high horse about painting. Yes, painted armies are good, and we should do all we can to encourage them, but the proliferation of unpainted armies is a result of many factors, including expansion of the gamer base, increased army sizes, dramatically increased model detail, and relaxation of standards. For fun, open up a white dwarf from 1992, and one from today. Compare the armies in the battle reports, and consider how much more time it would take to replicate the results from the current army. Between number of models, increased detail, and far higher standards I'm guessing it takes triple the time.
Third, realize that people have fun in different ways, and if you have unpainted stuff, you should work to paint it to enable others to have fun. If you see an unpainted army, maybe you should play a game so others can have fun. By loosening sphincters and putting some time into the hobby, we can all have a lot more fun.
But for me it's not a high horse- it's what I enjoy... I enjoy playing, but with a painted army against someone else who loves to play, but with a painted army. I want the full experience. How hard is it to have a 1200-1500 pts painted, if you want to add something else to that army, just paint it first. Foundation, wash, trim... This ain't hard...
props for the "chestnut about time to paint" funny.
Automatically Appended Next Post: carmachu wrote:
Wow, how elitest of you. Who crowned you king and dicate what the hobby is? Who are you to dictate what is good fun/bad fun?
So people paint, some people like to play. Some people like to model. Some like to do everything.
Different people approach the game from different angles. I would rathe rplay a good person and opponent with an unpainted army then TFG or an A-hole with a golden demon level one every time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
Really? And here I thought the point of table top games was to, you know, actually play the game. Otherwise if you want to paint there are a ton of other models you can paint.....
OK let me expand my logic.... again....
I like to play, but with painted armies, against folks who like to play, but with painted armies. I don't play with nor associate with A-holes or those who power-game with TFG's. In other words having a fully painted army won't automatically qualify you to be someone I play against, but having a fully unpainted army would certainly eliminate you in most circumstances.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
This stupid subject crops up with depressing regularity and each time we get awesome dislays on intolerance on both sides.
1st off - people pay their money to GW or FLGS for a box of toy soldiers. There is no EULA that says they need to be painted. If you don't like to see an unpainted army go play someone else who shares you view as to what the hobby comprises of.
Will people complaining about a lack of painting stop using words like "ashamed" and "lazy" etc - who the heck do you think you are to be able to dictate what the toy soldiers hobby is? Do you think you are so important that you opinion counts in any shape or form - that is a tad arrogant.
To the OP - "However, it'd seem to me that if you spend 50 bucks on a model kit you'd want to do more than just glue it together, more importantly if you invest all the money and time into this hobby you'd want to do it right and paint; and if you didn't know how, you'd want to learn."
&
"if you invest all the money and time into this hobby you'd want to do it right and paint"
Those comments are so breath takingly arrogant and so full of poor assumptions it isn't even funny. The key words are "it'd seem to me" - yes it may seem to you but it doesn't to others - you opinion on how others should enjoy the fruits of their hard earned cash carries zero weight.
Also, how dare you tell people "you'd want to do it right" - incredibly smug.
Sheesh - there are enough people outside the hobby who give us crap for even playing with toy soldiers - we don't need people within the hobby looking down on others with a holier than thou attitude.
And frankly, seeing the way many people paint I wish they actually didn't paint their miniatures because they suck at painting and the paint jobs look aweful to the point where grey unprimered models look better. Ha, see I can be elitist and smug too.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
MisterMoon wrote:
OK let me expand my logic.... again....
I like to play, but with painted armies, against folks who like to play, but with painted armies. I don't play with nor associate with A-holes or those who power-game with TFG's. In other words having a fully painted army won't automatically qualify you to be someone I play against, but having a fully unpainted army would certainly eliminate you in most circumstances.
That attitude has just added you to my list of people I hope to never have to play against.
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Post by: carmachu
MisterMoon wrote:
OK let me expand my logic.... again....
I like to play, but with painted armies, against folks who like to play, but with painted armies. I don't play with nor associate with A-holes or those who power-game with TFG's. In other words having a fully painted army won't automatically qualify you to be someone I play against, but having a fully unpainted army would certainly eliminate you in most circumstances.
Irrelevant when you say:
"I say save your money and get a RTSG on the PC or XBOX"
When you say that, along with the few otehr things, you come off as complete snob. Like your way or the highway. Its great you do, but its not the only way. Many people enjoy the gaming, fluff, painting or whatever.
Your analyzing WHY people dont paint completely misses the mark. Yeah some are lazy, but then again, some dont care. Its not important to THEIR enjoyment of the game.
OI have fully, partially, and unpainted armies. I have played against, fully, partiall, unpainted, and hell half assembled armies. The state of the army has nothing to do with the enjoyment.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
deleted for wrong button used!!! Automatically Appended Next Post: carmachu wrote:
When you say that, along with the few otehr things, you come off as complete snob. Like your way or the highway. Its great you do, but its not the only way. Many people enjoy the gaming, fluff, painting or whatever.
Your analyzing WHY people dont paint completely misses the mark. Yeah some are lazy, but then again, some dont care. Its not important to THEIR enjoyment of the game.
OI have fully, partially, and unpainted armies. I have played against, fully, partiall, unpainted, and hell half assembled armies. The state of the army has nothing to do with the enjoyment.
I agree with the points you are raising. For me, gaming is about through down some dice with friends and enjoying a break from the stresses of job and life. Yes, I enjoying painting and painted armies look cool on a table. Judging other people who don't use painted armies just isn't cool - we don't know why their army in't painted or what the reasons he/she is in the hobby for. If he/ she is a good player, fun can take abuse and dish it out and down a beer or two whilst playing I don't give two hoots as to what his army looks like.
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Post by: carmachu
fullheadofhair wrote:
I agree with the points you are raising. For me, gaming is about through down some dice with friends and enjoying a break from the stresses of job and life. Yes, I enjoying painting and painted armies look cool on a table. Judging other people who don't use painted armies just isn't cool - we don't know why their army in't painted or what the reasons he/she is in the hobby for. If he/ she is a good player, fun can take abuse and dish it out and down a beer or two whilst playing I don't give two hoots as to what his army looks like.
I dont mind THta some folks want to play against painted armies. What I mind and resent is the fact that many of those that do, as demonstrated in this and other threads on painting, think THEIR way is the right and ONLY way in the gaming hobby world. And if you dont do it THEIR way, your having bad/wrong fun or should go buy an EBOX or as Paul Sawyer once said, go take up golf or some other sport.
Its not. People come into the game and hobby from a variety of reasons and vectors. There's ultimately no real wrong way as long as everyone is having fun.
But let people have their fun and stop trampling on other people's methods. I come from a time when basing was optional. OPTIONAL. And it was a beer and pretzels game instead of "THE GW HOBBY!!!!"
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Post by: Ozymandias
I've been gaming for over 15 years and I have only one completely painted army (and some of the models go back 15 years).
I really resent the notion that because I don't have a fully painted army that I'm somehow a noob or TFG or don't appreciate the hobby fully. This thread is like all the Fluff gamers telling the competitive gamers that they don't play the game right. Get off your high horse, get over yourself, and just play the fething game.
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Post by: Polonius
MisterMoon wrote:
But for me it's not a high horse- it's what I enjoy... I enjoy playing, but with a painted army against someone else who loves to play, but with a painted army. I want the full experience. How hard is it to have a 1200-1500 pts painted, if you want to add something else to that army, just paint it first. Foundation, wash, trim... This ain't hard...
You're kind of missing my point. You're saying you don't want to play unpainted armies, you start a thread complaining about them, and then spend four pages trying to convince us you're not on a high horse.
It's really ok for you to be, I just think that you are, not unlike people that don't paint, missing out on some aspects of the hobby.
It's not that hard to paint 1500pts of an army. Likewise, it's not that hard to play a game against an unpainted army. There are two sides to this, and I think that a certain mutual understanding could go a long way.
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Post by: Che-Vito
I love to paint, and I love to play.
What does this mean?
It means, that I will buy the models, assemble them, and AT LEAST basecoat them before bringing them to the table. I will individually paint the squad leaders, vehicles, and elites first, and then move on to the Troops.
I'm not going to put off playing until my army is full painted to my standard, but I will continue to work on painting it until it is completed.
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Post by: Shadowbrand
Well, one model from my whole new IG army is painted but...
I'm waiting on getting some primer then im gonna do up all 1k points I got then I gotta strip some models I'm waiting to receive.
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Post by: Dronze
I'm lukewarm on painting and I love to play this game. Is a large portion of my army painted? No... is the exceedingly small portion of my stuff that is painted done well? some of it...
I play the game for the fluff and for the game itself. I play to play, and could care less about the painting. Will I do the painting eventually? When I find the time and the motivation to do so. While I can appreciate people who paint, and it never ceases to amaze me what some people can do with some paint, it's just not that important to me, and I can't seem to comprehend why people are so uppity about it and what other people get out of this hobby...
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Post by: wyomingfox
Polonius wrote:First, shut up and paint your damn army. If you don't' have time because of work, than hire a kid to throw some paint on it. If you want to paint it beautifully (and honestly, how many of those armies are finished? 5%? Fewer?), put a basecoast down, and add highlights and layers later.
Ummm...yeah, except if they don't value "painted" miniatures, they are not going to spend the money or the time to paint the miniatures. So their appropriate answer to you will be a resounding "No, I don't want to". Again, I think that most people get into this hobby, and just about any other hobby, for their personal satisfaction...not yours or anyone elses.
Moreover, what concern is it to anyone else how I paint my miniatures that I bought with my money? If I or someone else wants to paint my/their army piecemeal and to a "display" standard, then that is my/their perogative. If you don't want to play against an unpainted army, then that is your perogative.
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Post by: LunaHound
wyomingfox wrote:Polonius wrote:First, shut up and paint your damn army. If you don't' have time because of work, than hire a kid to throw some paint on it. If you want to paint it beautifully (and honestly, how many of those armies are finished? 5%? Fewer?), put a basecoast down, and add highlights and layers later.
Ummm...yeah, except if they don't value "painted" miniatures, they are not going to spend the money or the time to paint the miniatures. So their appropriate answer to you will be a resounding "No, I don't want to". Again, I think that most people get into this hobby, and just about any other hobby, for their personal satisfaction...not yours or anyone elses.
Moreover, what concern is it to anyone else how I paint my miniatures that I bought with my money? If I or someone else wants to paint my/their army piecemeal and to a "display" standard, then that is my/their perogative. If you don't want to play against an unpainted army, then that is your perogative.
I fully agree fox.
I feel obligated to copy paste this in every page of this thread:
-There are players that got into warhammer for Hobby Aspect.
-There are players that got into warhammer for Gaming Aspect.
- A hastily painted army (unless you are a pro) will no doubt diminish the value of the army , not to mention time + paint invested .
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Post by: wyomingfox
malfred wrote:the most important reason I apply the make-up to my models is also the most selfish. I do so
for my own pleasure.
Thanks Malfred and Luna; also, I don't see the problem with this attitude. Engaging in hobbies are suppose to provide one with pleasure! Otherwise, hell, you might as well work 24/7.
fullheadofhair wrote:Sheesh - there are enough people outside the hobby who give us crap for even playing with toy soldiers - we don't need people within the hobby looking down on others with a holier than thou attitude.
This is so True  . I had 2 girls on Eharmony suddenly break off communication after I showed them pictures of my painted models
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Post by: Fateweaver
Lunahound is a very good painter. She has skills.
Just thought I'd toss that out there.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Frazzled wrote:Polonius…banned. Wyomingfox…banned…
Wait  Polonius opens his mouth and I get banned.  Oh well, at least I will have more time to compost manure with this pair of dentures that I stole off Frazzled's countertop this morning.
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Post by: Aduro
You know, if this thread goes on much longer, I'm going to have to copy/paste the OP but substitute "painted" for "converted". I mean really, why would you spend your money on something, and then just put it together the same way everyone else did. If all you want is standard pose figs, you might as well just go play D&D minis or some other game where it all comes pre-assembled.
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Post by: LunaHound
Aduro wrote:You know, if this thread goes on much longer, I'm going to have to copy/paste the OP but substitute "painted" for "converted". I mean really, why would you spend your money on something, and then just put it together the same way everyone else did. If all you want is standard pose figs, you might as well just go play D&D minis or some other game where it all comes pre-assembled.
You win o_o
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Post by: Howlingmoon
LunaHound wrote:
For the people that insist on others to hastily paint their army for the sake of visual appeal for your gaming experience i suggest you visit the swap shop.
There you'll see the heart breaking stories of people painting their army , some even had them commission painted.
At the end of the day, all the effort , time , $ spent on it fetches them below 20% off retail value , due to the buyer want to strip the paint off.
Warhammer: Go Big or Go Home.
On Topic: I paint far far more than I play.
In fact, let's see. Since I got back in at the beginning of the summer. I have spent 6+ hours a day 2+ days a week at the local GW painting/modeling. Games played? 3
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Post by: LunaHound
Howlingmoon wrote:
Warhammer: Go Big or Go Home.
On Topic: I paint far far more than I play.
In fact, let's see. Since I got back in at the beginning of the summer. I have spent 6+ hours a day 2+ days a week at the local GW painting/modeling. Games played? 3
Yes but as i said before, thats YOU . Other people are NOT YOU , as some of them just want to do the gaming aspect. (note, see the legoburner's thread on other aspects )
Are you denying our existence? that some how the poll are rigged and all the none painter votes are made by none humans?
Go big or Go home? what does that mean? I have every army and unit im interested in , probably enough to rival HBMC , does this mean im finally
at the standard to have an opinion?
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Post by: wyomingfox
[Sarcasm]Are they painted?[/Sarcasm]
11
Post by: ph34r
If I don't want to play against your unpainted army I don't have to. Don't get all self-righteous that people refuse to play against unpainted armies, a large part of the game for many people people (people that aren't you) is painting.
If you just got your army together and want to test it out while you paint it? Sure.
If you are just too lazy to paint your army? Nope.
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Post by: wyomingfox
That hasn't been my point. Heck I am a painter, and so is Luna, and several others. If you don't want to play against an unpainted army that is fine. I mean it is not like they can't easily find someone else to play with. Just don't expect others to quite the hobby because they refuse to paint their armies and don't expect them to respond well when you call them n00bs, lazy, ect.
Personally, I have 2000 points of Tau painted by a commissioned artist, I also have about 2000 points of Tyranids and 1000 points of SW that I myself painted over the past decade. Though admittily I still have over 10,000 points worth of stuff unpainted and accordingly, often game with a large number unpainted.
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Post by: carmachu
ph34r wrote:If I don't want to play against your unpainted army I don't have to. Don't get all self-righteous that people refuse to play against unpainted armies, a large part of the game for many people people (people that aren't you) is painting.
If you just got your army together and want to test it out while you paint it? Sure.
If you are just too lazy to paint your army? Nope.
See, you and yours are still doing it. Your ASSUMING that the reason the armies are unpainted is we're lazy.
You forget in your zeal, that to YOU a large part of the game is painting, that for many others? A large part of the game is....to play the game.
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Post by: malfred
I think people with unpainted armies hide their fully painted omfglolwhut armies in another
case. What happens next is up to their opponent. If the opponent has a fit and refuses
to play the unpainted army player, the unpainter just smiles knowingly in response. If the
opponent is friendly, the unpainter swaps out his kit and *surprise* his army was painted
all along!
It's like one of those M. Night Shm.... movies.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
ph34r wrote:If I don't want to play against your unpainted army I don't have to. Don't get all self-righteous that people refuse to play against unpainted armies, a large part of the game for many people people (people that aren't you) is painting.
If you just got your army together and want to test it out while you paint it? Sure.
If you are just too lazy to paint your army? Nope.
You missing the point. If you don't want to play someone who hasn't painted an army that is your choice - I disagree with it myself, but it is your choice.
what I object to is people telling others what they should be doing to enjoy their hobby - i.e if you don't play with a fully painted army you are not a true member of the GW gaming community. It is the people who look down on others who don't agree with your definition of "the hobby" that are self-righteous and a trifle smug with a "I am a better hobbyist than you" attitude.
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Post by: ph34r
If someone is trying to get their army painted and can't because of situations out of their control, sure I'll play you. But if you just don't want to paint your army, I'm not going to play against you. I'm not doing anything bad by not playing someone.
I don't "look down on people". If you want to play 40k without painted models, sure, whatever. It doesn't effect me for the most part so I don't care.
See, you and yours are still doing it. Your ASSUMING that the reason the armies are unpainted is we're lazy.
You forget in your zeal, that to YOU a large part of the game is painting, that for many others? A large part of the game is....to play the game.
Sorry, but you are the only one ASSuming here. I didn't say that all people who don't paint their armies are lazy. You ASSumed that I meant that. You are wrong. I am aware of people who don't paint their armies. I won't try to stop them or berate them for doing what they do, but I won't want to play them.
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Post by: LunaHound
ph34r wrote:If someone is trying to get their army painted and can't because of situations out of their control, sure I'll play you. But if you just don't want to paint your army, I'm not going to play against you. I'm not doing anything bad by not playing someone.
I don't "look down on people". If you want to play 40k without painted models, sure, whatever. It doesn't effect me for the most part so I don't care.
See, you and yours are still doing it. Your ASSUMING that the reason the armies are unpainted is we're lazy.
You forget in your zeal, that to YOU a large part of the game is painting, that for many others? A large part of the game is....to play the game.
Sorry, but you are the only one ASSuming here. I didn't say that all people who don't paint their armies are lazy. You ASSumed that I meant that. You are wrong. I am aware of people who don't paint their armies. I won't try to stop them or berate them for doing what they do, but I won't want to play them.
In other words , are you saying you just dont have enough sympathy? -_-
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Post by: ph34r
I should not feel the need to do something that I would rather not to fulfill the wishes of another because I feel sorry for their inability to paint their army, something that requires time (that one would spend playing the game with me) and money (that one spends on 40k in vastly greater quantities anyway). If you have really bad arthritis or something and really cannot paint then I would play against you, because it's totally out of your control at that point.
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Post by: malfred
ph34r wrote:I should not feel the need to do something that I would rather not to fulfill the wishes of another...
*snip*
See? You do empathize with people who don't enjoy painting.
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Post by: Iron_Chaos_Brute
A latercomer to the thread...
I personally hate painting...I find it boring, repetetive, and generally  . And I'm pretty average at it if I spend the time.
I paint because:
a) Tournaments have painting judging, and I like it when people take pictures of my army.
b) If it's a casual game, most people like to look across the table and see painted stuff. The game's about having fun, and if I have to spend a day miserable and painting away, it's worth it to let everyone else have fun.
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Post by: ph34r
malfred wrote:ph34r wrote:I should not feel the need to do something that I would rather not to fulfill the wishes of another...
*snip*
See? You do empathize with people who don't enjoy painting.
I don't in any way expect people to paint their armies just so that they can play me. If I expected people to paint their armies then you would have a valid point. I merely would leave those who disagree with me painting wise alone and not bother them with my views. I can't say the same for a hypothetical person who refuses to paint their army badgering me to play them.
EDIT: To put my stance even more simply, I don't expect other people to do things that they do not enjoy, and I won't do things that I do not enjoy. If you want to paint your army and play me, that's fine by me, but I won't think less of you if you don't. "Not being able to play against me" is not me forcing someone to do something that they dislike.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
malfred wrote:I think people with unpainted armies hide their fully painted omfglolwhut armies in another
case. What happens next is up to their opponent. If the opponent has a fit and refuses
to play the unpainted army player, the unpainter just smiles knowingly in response. If the
opponent is friendly, the unpainter swaps out his kit and *surprise* his army was painted
all along!
It's like one of those M. Night Shm.... movies.
THE GUY WITH THE UNPAINTED MOVIE WAS GHOST TOO??!
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Post by: Howlingmoon
LunaHound wrote:Howlingmoon wrote:
Warhammer: Go Big or Go Home.
On Topic: I paint far far more than I play.
In fact, let's see. Since I got back in at the beginning of the summer. I have spent 6+ hours a day 2+ days a week at the local GW painting/modeling. Games played? 3
Yes but as i said before, thats YOU . Other people are NOT YOU , as some of them just want to do the gaming aspect. (note, see the legoburner's thread on other aspects )
Are you denying our existence? that some how the poll are rigged and all the none painter votes are made by none humans?
Go big or Go home? what does that mean? I have every army and unit im interested in , probably enough to rival HBMC , does this mean im finally
at the standard to have an opinion?
basically it means "do not buy anything that you do not plan on keeping or using. ever."
Why? because you're not going to be able to sell it. You might be able to give it away. But a lot of people will expect you to pay them to take it.
See also: Every post I've made about the general anti-socialness of the hobby community.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
carmachu wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
Really? And here I thought the point of table top games was to, you know, actually play the game. Otherwise if you want to paint there are a ton of other models you can paint.....
The point of figure games is to play with nice looking figures and scenery.
Before I started miniature wargaming, I played with hex based map wargames. It's still tabletop wargaming, and it doesn't use figures. The counters aren't very attractive, but they work well. You get a good game.
The point of playing with figures is to have nice looking counters. You actually sacrifice some degree of playability because the unit's variables are not displayed on it like they are on a counter.
Really we have a cultural split here. Some of us don't see the point in painting, and others do. Effectively (I've said this before) we have two very similar hobbies. One is playing miniature wargames with painted figures, and one is playing miniature wargames without painted figures. If people don't see the point of playing with painted figures, that's fine, but it's difficult to mix oil and water.
I'm not putting a moral spin on this, it's just that I want to play with painted figures. Why should I feel obliged to play with unpainted figures?
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Post by: Polonius
wyomingfox wrote:Polonius wrote:First, shut up and paint your damn army. If you don't' have time because of work, than hire a kid to throw some paint on it. If you want to paint it beautifully (and honestly, how many of those armies are finished? 5%? Fewer?), put a basecoast down, and add highlights and layers later.
Ummm...yeah, except if they don't value "painted" miniatures, they are not going to spend the money or the time to paint the miniatures. So their appropriate answer to you will be a resounding "No, I don't want to". Again, I think that most people get into this hobby, and just about any other hobby, for their personal satisfaction...not yours or anyone elses.
Moreover, what concern is it to anyone else how I paint my miniatures that I bought with my money? If I or someone else wants to paint my/their army piecemeal and to a "display" standard, then that is my/their perogative. If you don't want to play against an unpainted army, then that is your perogative.
Well, I've gone to the mat more than once for people that don't like to paint, so don't think I'm the bad guy here. The truth is that with a painted army your playing options go up. In some areas not t hat dramatically, but there still are tournaments and the like that require painted minis.
And While I think that everybody that seems to think playing against an unpainted army will give them herpes needs to get over themselves, painting is a traditional part of the hobby. Clubs, stores, tournaments, and players aren't totally out of line to ask that people paint their stuff. Painted armies are better for recruiting new players and retaining old ones.
If you're happy with the idea of those that dislike unpainted stuff not playing against you, than enjoy the status quo with my compliments. I just think it'd be better for the hobby if we had a little less balkanization. Automatically Appended Next Post: My point is, I think the hobby would be better if we began thinking "we all enjoy different aspects of the hobby, but we're still in the same hobby" rather than KillKrazy's "two hobby" analysis. Where I live, if I refused to play unpainted armies I'd never get a game. I can't afford to enjoy my own hobby if I actually, you know, want to play the game.
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Post by: mattyrm
I think painting is really satisfying. I didnt when i sucked, but i got much better with practice and now i absolutely love it. I take alot of satisfaction from a well painted mini.
I think patience is the key, and alot of perseverence.
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Post by: chromedog
LunaHound wrote:In other words , are you saying you just dont have enough sympathy? -_-
malfred wrote:See? You do empathize with people who don't enjoy painting.
Empathy is understanding what someone is feeling (and sharing in it).
Sympathy is giving a crap either way.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I've no problem with people who don't paint their minis. What really irks me are collectors, though, who hoard 20+ year old blisters of models, never to open them and certainly never to play with any of their prized collectibles. Which is why relish the opportunity to buy some of their precious models, slap on some paint and line them up for war.
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Post by: BrookM
To me painting is boring and often frustrating to get it just right. I know I can get a whole lot better with practice but I've hardly got the time or the space right now for that sadly. However, I am always pretty effing pleased when I finally get a mini done. Sure, it's not up to the standards of whatever passes as the acceptable grade these days, but I'm happy and couldn't care less. So there.
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Post by: chromedog
Agamemnon2 wrote:I've no problem with people who don't paint their minis. What really irks me are collectors, though, who hoard 20+ year old blisters of models, never to open them and certainly never to play with any of their prized collectibles. Which is why relish the opportunity to buy some of their precious models, slap on some paint and line them up for war.
these people are like the ones who hoard fine wines away, never to drink them.
They not only deprive themselves of the joys of it, but also deprive others who would more than certainly derive more enjoyment from quaffing said plonk.
They may as well just buy them to melt them down.
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Post by: Duce
Each to their own, but i have a principle where i refuse to use a unit which is not painted, and I'm not the best painter, at the moment i do the basic colours and some details and worry about highlighting afte rthe army is complete.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Polonius wrote:This is a great thread, it's like a Christmas Special on television: the characters change, but the plot, the lessons, and the symbols all stay constant. Let's see what we have:
1) The smug feeling of superiority some posters have over they're ability to apply paint to toys.
2) Pathetic excuses for not having anything close to a painted army, including the classic chestnut "I'm a perfectionist and I paint really slowly." But somehow having a black primered army doesn't bother them, only having an army with base colors laid down would bother them. One person asserted that they couldn't afford paints. Really? Any veteran hobbyist could sell/give you a starter paint set, or tell you were to get stuff cheap. For a basic paint job it's about a $20 buy in (can of primer, 4 paints, a scoop of dirt for basing, elmers glue, and 2 brushes).
3) Thinly veiled contempt towards people that don't paint, as if they were some lesser form of creature unfit to discuss or play games with the like of a painter.
4) The shockingly ridiculous willful ignorance that leads to statements like "if you don't want to paint, why not just use cardboard," as if a three dimensional figure with a gun and base is somehow no more representative than chits.
5) The equally confounding willfull ignorance of those that seem to think that nobody could ever enjoy 40k without painting, and that removing any one aspect of the hobby makes a persons interest in the hobby beyond all belief.
6) The bewildering posts that seem to assert that "the new generation" raised on "TV and video games" demand instant gratification. That would be true if GW was launched in 1948, but since it's been around roughly the same time as console gaming and cable TV, that reasoning seems a bit thin. Even the internet has been ubiquitous for a decade now.
7) and finally, just because it's fun, the classic example of a Mod reminding us that "Mods can have opinions." Which of course, as most readers of the OT can vouch for, really means, "Mods can have and post opinions that would get any other user scolded."
Don't forget 8) The preachers who feel the need to try t sum up every opinion in the thread from their high horses..
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Post by: carmachu
ph34r wrote:
Sorry, but you are the only one ASSuming here. I didn't say that all people who don't paint their armies are lazy. You ASSumed that I meant that. You are wrong. I am aware of people who don't paint their armies. I won't try to stop them or berate them for doing what they do, but I won't want to play them.
You can keep implying I'm a donkey's behind, but no matter what you say now, your words prior give lie to that you didnt say it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:
b) If it's a casual game, most people like to look across the table and see painted stuff. The game's about having fun, and if I have to spend a day miserable and painting away, it's worth it to let everyone else have fun.
Slight misconception. Having fun playing doesnt necessarily equate to a painted army. Its like the frosting or cherry on top, but doesntmake the whole game fun. Most of that comes from the player and his attitude, not the paint job. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote:
The point of figure games is to play with nice looking figures and scenery.
see, I look at that as a bonus, not a requirement. I've probably played the same games as you with hex maps and counters. Then with unpainted figures as they came available.....
Its always been about the fun. anything else was a bonus.
I'm not putting a moral spin on this, it's just that I want to play with painted figures. Why should I feel obliged to play with unpainted figures?
Your not. Dont belive I said you should.
However as I said to the orignal poster, what you are obligated to do is not tell folks that dont share your POV on the hobby how they should approach the game, nor that their having wrong/bad fun, and if we dont agree with your POV to go buy an XOBX and get out.
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Post by: Chaoslord
wyomingfox wrote:Well the idea of having a painted army is more for the owner's personal enjoyment not his opponent's.
+1
Regarding if I have issues with other people's unpainted armies, I generally don't mind, altough I encourage them to paint their armies (even if it just comes down to basecoating & dipping).
But in the end, if they don't, I'll get over it.
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Post by: Saldiven
Here's a good reason why I don't paint much:
I freaking hate it. I just plain don't like painting. I used to, but that was before I discovered things like girls and competitive athletics. Now, I'd rather spend the time I used to spend on painting by doing things like going to the gym, playing volleyball, or going out dancing with girls.
Now, I am in no way denigrating those who enjoy painting. I'm just saying that I don't.
Consequently, while I myself have two (barely) painted armies, I have no problem playing against people who don't paint their armies. The visual experience, for me, is the absolute last thing I'm looking for in a game. A well painted army does not make the game more challenging, my opponent a better player, the scenario more interesting, or the other player a nicer guy.
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Post by: R3con
Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
Eh i consider myself serioius i've played since 2nd ed....but working 50+ hours a week and having kids my painting time for my new armies is just about nil...
I have to schedual games 2 weeks out to get to play.
I'm lucky if I find the time to paint 2-3 figures a month...much less a whole army.
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Post by: Saldiven
R3con wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
Eh i consider myself serioius i've played since 2nd ed....but working 50+ hours a week and having kids my painting time for my new armies is just about nil...
I have to schedual games 2 weeks out to get to play.
I'm lucky if I find the time to paint 2-3 figures a month...much less a whole army.
Um, KK, I've been playing 40K since about 1988-89. I can't remember which year Rogue Trader came out, but I still have the first print book on my bookshelf at home that I bought when I was in high school.
Painting is the reason YOU play table top games. It is not THE point of playing table top games. In the 30 years that I have been gaming, I feel it is safe to bet that I have played more table top games than you've ever heard of, and I stopped enjoying painting about the time I got my first girlfriend.
See, that kind of commentary is the obnoxious elitism that I hate from some people whenever these threads about army painting come up.
You don't want to play me because you (not you, specifically, KK) don't like the degree to which my army is painted? Well, that's just fine. Based on some of the comments that I have seen on this and other threads from the painting proponent crowd, I'd probably not enjoy the game anyway.
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Post by: jgemrich
chromedog wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:I've no problem with people who don't paint their minis. What really irks me are collectors, though, who hoard 20+ year old blisters of models, never to open them and certainly never to play with any of their prized collectibles. Which is why relish the opportunity to buy some of their precious models, slap on some paint and line them up for war.
these people are like the ones who hoard fine wines away, never to drink them.
They not only deprive themselves of the joys of it, but also deprive others who would more than certainly derive more enjoyment from quaffing said plonk.
They may as well just buy them to melt them down.
Huh??? Melt down my Zoats, Fimir and Ambull? My Legiond of the Damned Chaos or Gob Lobber? I still have these as pieces of a collection. Some are in the blister. Someday they'll see some paint.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
No, painting is not the reason I play tabletop figure games.
I actually don't like painting very much, and I'm not much good at it.
I like the results of painting. I like fighting battles which look nice. That's how I get some of my fun out of wargaming.
I have no objection to secondhand or pro-painted figures and I have both in my collection, as well as stuff I did myself. I'm also fine with pre-painted figures.
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Post by: porkuslime
I used to stink at painting.. (eyes lousy, hand co-ordination not too good)..
Then 2 things happened..
my spouse saw the pile of unpainted miniatures I had.. and kinda blew a gasket when she realized that I was buying minis without taking the time to paint em.. and the family budget got an emergency overhaul to eliminate modeling money until painting happened.. lol
And.. I got moved to a Saturday work schedule and I realized that I could paint at work! No Kids! No honey-do lists! (and about 2 hours of work in a space of 8 hours of time).. so, I asked if I could paint on the job.. the manager sayeth OK.. so.. off I went..
6 months later I saw Malfreds 520 challenge and got busy.. and after 18 months of Saturday painting I am ALL caught up.. 4 painted armies, 1 in progress, and now looking for the next project. I think if I every completely finish and never need to paint another fig.. I will implode. I have a painting habit now.
Maybe that is what is needed for those who have bare models and WANT paint on them.. a concious decision to make the time to paint.. and stick with it.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
jgemrich wrote:Huh??? Melt down my Zoats, Fimir and Ambull? My Legiond of the Damned Chaos or Gob Lobber? I still have these as pieces of a collection. Some are in the blister. Someday they'll see some paint.
I've wanted an Ambull and space zoats for years, every since that age old WD article; "Ambulling around".
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Post by: Platuan4th
Agamemnon2 wrote:What really irks me are collectors, though, who hoard 20+ year old blisters of models, never to open them and certainly never to play with any of their prized collectibles. W I see this same problem in the toy collecting community and still have a problem with it. Why would you buy something and not enjoy it to the fullest? As Toyfaire says, there's no point in collecting toys if you can't take them out of the package and play with them(and if that bothers you, buy 2 copies).
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Post by: Redbeard
Saldiven wrote: ... I just plain don't like painting. I used to, but that was before I discovered things like girls... Now, I'd rather spend the time I used to spend on painting by doing things like ... going out dancing with girls. Women are sin. You must resist your baser urges for the sake of your miniatures. porkuslime wrote:... my spouse saw the pile of unpainted miniatures I had.. and kinda blew a gasket when she realized that I was buying minis without taking the time to paint em.. and the family budget got an emergency overhaul to eliminate modeling money until painting happened.. lol Except your wife, sir. She is a woman of good moral standards, and you should count yourself lucky to have her.
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Post by: combatmedic
I dont paint because:
A: I dont have time
B: I dont really have the space for it
C: I suck at painting
D: I have more fun playing than painting
E: I just really dont care.
Id like to finish my DA army, or maybe even start my Ork army, or perhaps paint more than just my Empire tank, but again I direct you to A-E.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
It's very important never to paint all your figures.
Medical Facte! Wargamers only die once they finish painting all their naked lead.
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Post by: Bookwrack
What about styrene?
14424
Post by: RxGhost
I have 6 painted armies, I'm working on two more. 95% of all of these have been completed in the last 2-3 years. I won't even play with an army until it's painted.
Though I should mention I don't care if someone else doesn't paint their stuff, though I will say that you won't get better if you don't do it. So for people who use the excuse "I don't paint because I suck." I'd like to respond with: "You suck at painting because you don't paint."
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Post by: R3con
Saldiven wrote:R3con wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
Eh i consider myself serioius i've played since 2nd ed....but working 50+ hours a week and having kids my painting time for my new armies is just about nil...
I have to schedual games 2 weeks out to get to play.
I'm lucky if I find the time to paint 2-3 figures a month...much less a whole army.
Um, KK, I've been playing 40K since about 1988-89. I can't remember which year Rogue Trader came out, but I still have the first print book on my bookshelf at home that I bought when I was in high school.
Painting is the reason YOU play table top games. It is not THE point of playing table top games. In the 30 years that I have been gaming, I feel it is safe to bet that I have played more table top games than you've ever heard of, and I stopped enjoying painting about the time I got my first girlfriend.
See, that kind of commentary is the obnoxious elitism that I hate from some people whenever these threads about army painting come up.
You don't want to play me because you (not you, specifically, KK) don't like the degree to which my army is painted? Well, that's just fine. Based on some of the comments that I have seen on this and other threads from the painting proponent crowd, I'd probably not enjoy the game anyway.
Did you mean to quote me, because I was in complete agreement with you......simmer down lol.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Platuan4th wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:What really irks me are collectors, though, who hoard 20+ year old blisters of models, never to open them and certainly never to play with any of their prized collectibles. W
I see this same problem in the toy collecting community and still have a problem with it. Why would you buy something and not enjoy it to the fullest?
As Toyfaire says, there's no point in collecting toys if you can't take them out of the package and play with them(and if that bothers you, buy 2 copies).
Comic book collectors do it too, which is sad. A lot of them collect mint copies of issues eternally bound in cellophane and probably locked in a dark room to stop the covers from fading, too. And these are people who claim to love comic books...
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
I think its because some people think its a bother to paint them.
I'm 13,brand new to painting and I've just finished my first battleforce and I'm quite proud.Everything I paint I show to my parents,but still some people just don't like painting
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Post by: Jayden63
malfred wrote:I don't need you to paint to enjoy the game.
I do need myself to paint to enjoy the game.
QFT.
I paint all my stuff. If it wasn't for the painting, I wouldn't be in the hobby.
However, having said that, I just put together 2000 points of Space Wolves and still have 35 odd models to paint. I'm probably not going to get them all painted before I play my first game with the army. However, I will probably have it all painted before my 6th.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
If you take 2-3 years with GWs current strategy half of it will be OOP by the time you come to play.
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Post by: augustus5
Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
I have to disagree with you. How you come to the conclusion that painting is the point of playing tabletop games is beyond me. One could say that painting is the point of building a diorama or entering a painfully converted/painted model into a painting contest, but I think more people play out of a love of the game than an overall love of the hobby.
I paint my minis and take pride in doing so. It's always nice to have somebody come up to me at my flgs and compliment me on my figures. I also enjoy seeing and playing against other painted armies. It does make the game experience more dynamic. But I have no problem getting in a good game against an unpainted army. It's better than not getting in a game at all.
Painting is an important part of the GW hobby but not everyone who loves and plays 40k really want to be a part of the whole hobby. I don't mess with greenstuff at all because I don't have the patience for sculpting. The only conversions I do are basic kit bashes. So I can understand how some people may be so frustrated with painting that they choose to play a grey army instead. Honestly sometimes an all grey army looks better than some of the paintjobs you see.
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Post by: nathonicus
In my humble opinion, and I don't mean to step on anyone's feelings here, but I honestly don't get people who play Warhammer or 40k who aren't into painting/modelling. If the game didn't have such a strong hobby element, I don't think it would be worth playing, as there are way better strategy/battle computer or board games out there.
The Warhammer hobby to me is all about the models, and GW shows this to be their focus as well, releasing great models and only so-so codeci for games with rather outdated engines.
I am simply mystified by people who play the game without painting (or getting someone else to) their figs. The figs are what makes the games so freakin' expensive, so if I wasn't into them, I would probably just go play Total War.
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Post by: Ozymandias
I'll answer that. In order are my favorite aspects of the hobby:
1) Discussing the game/fluff.
2) Gaming
3) Building/Painting Terrain
4) Collecting/Building the models
Then we go waaaaaay down to #5...
5) Painting
See, there is a lot I can get satisfaction from in this hobby without painting any of my miniatures. What I don't get are people who claim to tell me that I'm doing it wrong.
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Post by: Minsc
I do paint my armies, but progress is extremely slow for several reasons:
1) Numbers. I do Orcs & Skaven for Fantasy, Mordor Orcs for LotR / WotR, and Space Marines, Chaos Marines, and Orks for 40K. There are a lot of models to be painted (my Orc army for WHFB for instance, which isn't even fully assembled, has over 250 infantry models, plus another 35+ cavalry models). I own easily over 500 GW models. Now, while I can say at least a good 100+ models painted, there's always more to be done.
2) Time. Due to college, I am out of the house (and thus, unable to touch my models) for about 9 hours / day. After this, at least two of my classes homework (due to software) can only be done at home, thus that eats further into GW hobby time. Add in meals at home, house work, etcetera, I have about 6 hours free each day. For most people, that would be plenty enough to finish even 400+ models in under a year. However, number three...
3) Paint times. I am not the best painter, but I can paint at least somewhat decently. The catch? As my skills progress, so does my desire to keep all my models up to the rising standard. Right now, I can paint pretty decent Black Orcs (highlighted, no color bleed, etc). At a rate of about one for every hour, not jumping between models and going straight to another paint color after the first is "done" / starting to dry. Thus, even with no distractions and non-stop work, I'll maybe be able to get a rank done a day, if I don't shoot myself because of #4.
4) Tedium. Orcs have a lot of flesh that needs to be painted. Or armor, in the case of Black Orcs. Painting one model's skin is fun. Painting two is tolerable. Painting 250+ green skinned models? Torture, especially when half of them are at least three colors / coats.
Oh yeah, and #5 is the main reason I'm not painting right now:
5) Bugger stole my detail brush at GW a short while ago, haven't been able to find a substitute yet. With only a standard / large bristled brush, I can't get much work done besides simple things like weapons, undercoats, etc.
So, to sum it up for me: Numbers, time to paint, time to finish models, tedium of attempts at speed-painting, thief taking my tools.
EDIT: 500 models, forgot to include my Skaven's numbers somehow.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Yeah, I don't see why someone has to paint their 40k/FB army to enjoy the hobby when it's not the only reason for playing 40k.
Some of the Warmachine/Horde sculpts blow GW out of the water and in theory it's cheaper to play (as 300-500 seems the norm for game size so can play for less than $100US) but the background for the world and for the factions doesn't suck me in as much as 40k does.
The game is fun, I have tried it before I'll give it that (and in some ways it's more fun than 40k) but I play 40k for the background for the system as a whole and for the armies themselves.
When it comes to background no miniature gaming company in the world comes even close to GW.
I'm slow at painting. I am making progress but I might paint a squad every month if I push myself, 99% of my nid army is unpainted, has been that way for 3 years. I enjoy painting but there are other things I enjoy more and even though I get teased about it I'm not disallowed from playing 40k by my friends just because my dudes are only primed.
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Post by: LunaHound
hmm nevermind
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Post by: fullheadofhair
nathonicus wrote:In my humble opinion, and I don't mean to step on anyone's feelings here, but I honestly don't get people who play Warhammer or 40k who aren't into painting/modelling. If the game didn't have such a strong hobby element, I don't think it would be worth playing, as there are way better strategy/battle computer or board games out there.
The Warhammer hobby to me is all about the models, and GW shows this to be their focus as well, releasing great models and only so-so codeci for games with rather outdated engines.
I am simply mystified by people who play the game without painting (or getting someone else to) their figs. The figs are what makes the games so freakin' expensive, so if I wasn't into them, I would probably just go play Total War. 
It is only (and others of the same ilk) that say there is a strong hobby element to the game. For other's there isn't. What is it that is difficult about respecting other people's opinions that you (and others) seem to have some much difficulting in doing?
Did you read the rest of the thread?
Some people like to paint. Some people like to play. Some people like to play and paint. Seriously, what is so f'ing difficult to understanding that? What makes that so "mystified" to you? It's that difficult to understand? Really?
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Post by: LunaHound
fullheadofhair wrote:nathonicus wrote:In my humble opinion, and I don't mean to step on anyone's feelings here, but I honestly don't get people who play Warhammer or 40k who aren't into painting/modelling. If the game didn't have such a strong hobby element, I don't think it would be worth playing, as there are way better strategy/battle computer or board games out there.
The Warhammer hobby to me is all about the models, and GW shows this to be their focus as well, releasing great models and only so-so codeci for games with rather outdated engines.
I am simply mystified by people who play the game without painting (or getting someone else to) their figs. The figs are what makes the games so freakin' expensive, so if I wasn't into them, I would probably just go play Total War. 
It is only (and others of the same ilk) that say there is a strong hobby element to the game. For other's there isn't. What is it that is difficult about respecting other people's opinions that you (and others) seem to have some much difficulting in doing?
Did you read the rest of the thread?
Some people like to paint. Some people like to play. Some people like to play and paint. Seriously, what is so f'ing difficult to understanding that? What makes that so "mystified" to you? It's that difficult to understand? Really?
I agree, i really want to see a reply from nathonicus himself .
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Post by: wyomingfox
Minsc wrote: The catch? As my skills progress, so does my desire to keep all my models up to the rising standard.
I feel your pain. I really do. A large number of my nids have been painted 2-3 times over the years as I have progressed in skill. To me, "grey" figures look better than my "learning curve" painted figures. I just can't stand to look at them. So far, the following need to be repainted:
5 Ravenors
6 DS Warriors
3 CC Warriors
3 Zoes
15 Hormies
3 BC Bikes
10 BC
10 GH
WP
2 WG
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Post by: Kilkrazy
augustus5 wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Most people who don't paint their figures are basically n00bs who will probably drop out of wargaming as fast as they bought into it.
Nearly anyone who is serious about tabletop games will come to paint their figures because that is the point of playing tabletop games.
I have to disagree with you. How you come to the conclusion that painting is the point of playing tabletop games is beyond me. One could say that painting is the point of building a diorama or entering a painfully converted/painted model into a painting contest, but I think more people play out of a love of the game than an overall love of the hobby.
.
I don't think painting is the point of the hobby. Playing games with nice looking figures is the point of the hobby.
I don't care how they get painted. Paint them yourself, or buy them pre-painted, or buy secondhand models which are already painted, or send your models away for painting.
It's aesthetics.
Anyway, good for you, painting your figures.
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Post by: starbomber109
There's a very simple answer to this question. People are lazy. I know I wouldn't get didily squat painted myself if I didn't have an upcoming RTT looming over my head. But also, at one time I liked painting/building models with my family, I got into this hoby partly for the game, but partly to bring that back.
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Post by: ph34r
carmachu wrote:ph34r wrote:
Sorry, but you are the only one ASSuming here. I didn't say that all people who don't paint their armies are lazy. You ASSumed that I meant that. You are wrong. I am aware of people who don't paint their armies. I won't try to stop them or berate them for doing what they do, but I won't want to play them.
You can keep implying I'm a donkey's behind,
Merely poking fun at you after you were so kind to CAPITALIZE your "assuming" to make your point.
carmachu wrote: but no matter what you say now, your words prior give lie to that you didnt say it.
I said what I said, it is as plain as day. If you want to test your army while you paint it, sure. If you are not going to paint your army, no. If there are complicated circumstances, then I will not pile all reasons into one yes or no.
Some people have legitimate/logical reasons to not paint their armies. Some people really are just lazy.
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Post by: Saldiven
R3con wrote:
Did you mean to quote me, because I was in complete agreement with you......simmer down lol.
Oh, so sorry. I was agreeing with you, but I couldn't find KK's original post to quote.
Many apologies if it seemed as if I was mistakenly directing aggression your way
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Post by: wyomingfox
LunaHound wrote:fullheadofhair wrote:nathonicus wrote:
I am simply mystified by people who play the game without painting (or getting someone else to) their figs. The figs are what makes the games so freakin' expensive, so if I wasn't into them, I would probably just go play Total War. 
Some people like to paint. Some people like to play. Some people like to play and paint. Seriously, what is so f'ing difficult to understanding that? What makes that so "mystified" to you? It's that difficult to understand? Really?
I agree, i really want to see a reply from nathonicus himself .
I am guessing it is because he can't divource his reasons for joining the hobbie from the hobbie itself.
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Post by: Saldiven
nathonicus wrote:In my humble opinion, and I don't mean to step on anyone's feelings here, but I honestly don't get people who play Warhammer or 40k who aren't into painting/modelling. I f the game didn't have such a strong hobby element, I don't think it would be worth playing, as there are way better strategy/battle computer or board games out there.
The Warhammer hobby to me is all about the models, and GW shows this to be their focus as well, releasing great models and only so-so codeci for games with rather outdated engines.
I am simply mystified by people who play the game without painting (or getting someone else to) their figs. The figs are what makes the games so freakin' expensive, so if I wasn't into them, I would probably just go play Total War. 
Ah, but there are also other tabletop wargaming companies out there with comparably good models and way better rules.
Why do you play GW games instead of one of them?
Personally, I play any of the games to have a dynamic and entertaining social experience with slightly competitive overtones. Painting, to me, is an evil that prevents me from having 6-10 armies instead of 2.
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Post by: ChaosDave
fullheadofhair wrote:MisterMoon wrote:
OK let me expand my logic.... again....
I like to play, but with painted armies, against folks who like to play, but with painted armies. I don't play with nor associate with A-holes or those who power-game with TFG's. In other words having a fully painted army won't automatically qualify you to be someone I play against, but having a fully unpainted army would certainly eliminate you in most circumstances.
That attitude has just added you to my list of people I hope to never have to play against.
Really? It sounds like he goes to great lengths to make the gaming experience a pleasant one for himself and his opponent. Is it that you "hope to never play him" because you don't like pleasant gaming experiences or is it that you are one of those power-gamers that so many people find playing against distasteful? ?
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Post by: fullheadofhair
ChaosDave wrote:fullheadofhair wrote:MisterMoon wrote:
OK let me expand my logic.... again....
I like to play, but with painted armies, against folks who like to play, but with painted armies. I don't play with nor associate with A-holes or those who power-game with TFG's. In other words having a fully painted army won't automatically qualify you to be someone I play against, but having a fully unpainted army would certainly eliminate you in most circumstances.
That attitude has just added you to my list of people I hope to never have to play against.
Really? It sounds like he goes to great lengths to make the gaming experience a pleasant one for himself and his opponent. Is it that you "hope to never play him" because you don't like pleasant gaming experiences or is it that you are one of those power-gamers that so many people find playing against distasteful? ?
Neither actually. I build one list, it rarely changes and has all models in it I like. I will suffer a crap unit because it looks to cool not to have. I don't like to play against people who choose not to play others solely on the basis of unpainted models because chances are they are going to be pedantic holes I don't want to waste my very limited gaming time with. I would rather play with the person who is more relaxed irregardless of how many models he has painted.
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Post by: Fafnir
As far as I'm concerned, the rules for 40k and FB are too poorly written to just play them. The game is just an addition to the hobby aspect.
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Post by: CajunMan550
Probly far behind but I live in ATL too and while I do see tons of unpainted armies here at Gigabites Cafe and the Last tourney at Tower Games I went to were almost all painted were a couple unpainted. In general play most people with alot of unpainted stuff because they don't use it for tourny play but if I walk up right now to gigabites which I am about to I know I can get a game with a fully painted army
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Post by: ChaosDave
fullheadofhair wrote:ChaosDave wrote:fullheadofhair wrote:MisterMoon wrote:
OK let me expand my logic.... again....
I like to play, but with painted armies, against folks who like to play, but with painted armies. I don't play with nor associate with A-holes or those who power-game with TFG's. In other words having a fully painted army won't automatically qualify you to be someone I play against, but having a fully unpainted army would certainly eliminate you in most circumstances.
That attitude has just added you to my list of people I hope to never have to play against.
Really? It sounds like he goes to great lengths to make the gaming experience a pleasant one for himself and his opponent. Is it that you "hope to never play him" because you don't like pleasant gaming experiences or is it that you are one of those power-gamers that so many people find playing against distasteful? ?
Neither actually. I build one list, it rarely changes and has all models in it I like. I will suffer a crap unit because it looks to cool not to have. I don't like to play against people who choose not to play others solely on the basis of unpainted models because chances are they are going to be pedantic holes I don't want to waste my very limited gaming time with. I would rather play with the person who is more relaxed irregardless of how many models he has painted.
Interesting... You both have essentially the same argument for not playing certain people. He wants the best gaming experience for his limited time just like you, only he chooses to play against people who obviously take the hobby seriously enough to paint their figures. You on the other hand won't play against people who want to maximize their gaming experience from a visual stand point. Very similar outlooks from the hobby side vs the gaming side. As far as I can see you both are exactly the same, 2 sides of the same coin.
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Post by: StarGate
I have to be in the mood to paint if im bored i wont paint. Painting is a hobby for me so when i have time and feel like enjoying it iwil paint for a few days and knock out a few squads to half a army.... but once it feels like a chore or a job..... i stop painting.. my two cents
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Post by: nathonicus
LunaHound wrote:fullheadofhair wrote:nathonicus wrote:In my humble opinion, and I don't mean to step on anyone's feelings here, but I honestly don't get people who play Warhammer or 40k who aren't into painting/modelling. If the game didn't have such a strong hobby element, I don't think it would be worth playing, as there are way better strategy/battle computer or board games out there.
The Warhammer hobby to me is all about the models, and GW shows this to be their focus as well, releasing great models and only so-so codeci for games with rather outdated engines.
I am simply mystified by people who play the game without painting (or getting someone else to) their figs. The figs are what makes the games so freakin' expensive, so if I wasn't into them, I would probably just go play Total War. 
It is only (and others of the same ilk) that say there is a strong hobby element to the game. For other's there isn't. What is it that is difficult about respecting other people's opinions that you (and others) seem to have some much difficulting in doing?
Did you read the rest of the thread?
Some people like to paint. Some people like to play. Some people like to play and paint. Seriously, what is so f'ing difficult to understanding that? What makes that so "mystified" to you? It's that difficult to understand? Really?
I agree, i really want to see a reply from nathonicus himself .
Hey, I said "mystified" 'cuz I just don't get it!  I didn't say that any other point of view is wrong, or bad, and I certainly DO respect other peoples' opinions.
I thought I had prefaced my statement enough to make people realize I wasn't flaming anyone or criticizing someone, but let me just make it clear: "I'M NOT JUDGING ANYONE!"
Are people who care little or nothing about the Hobby aspect of the game wrong or aberrant in some way? No, certainly not, and I've had fun games against people who literally dumped their army out of a cardboard box before the battle.
I guess what I am trying to get across by saying I'm "mystified" is that if I didn't care about the appearance of the figures, I would rather play an RPG, PC RTS game, or just about anything else. If I'm not indulging in the spectacle of the miniature model hobby, I don't get the appeal of the game. ( I DO understand the appeal of the backstory - it's awesome, but I can indulge my fascination with that in the forums, reading the books, or playing an awesome game like Chaos in the Old World or Space Hulk.)
In any case, didn't mean to upset anyone. The hobby is certainly large enough for people of all walks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Saldiven wrote:nathonicus wrote:In my humble opinion, and I don't mean to step on anyone's feelings here, but I honestly don't get people who play Warhammer or 40k who aren't into painting/modelling. I f the game didn't have such a strong hobby element, I don't think it would be worth playing, as there are way better strategy/battle computer or board games out there.
The Warhammer hobby to me is all about the models, and GW shows this to be their focus as well, releasing great models and only so-so codeci for games with rather outdated engines.
I am simply mystified by people who play the game without painting (or getting someone else to) their figs. The figs are what makes the games so freakin' expensive, so if I wasn't into them, I would probably just go play Total War. 
Ah, but there are also other tabletop wargaming companies out there with comparably good models and way better rules.
Why do you play GW games instead of one of them?
Personally, I play any of the games to have a dynamic and entertaining social experience with slightly competitive overtones. Painting, to me, is an evil that prevents me from having 6-10 armies instead of 2.
I see what you're saying, but for those elements I would rather play a board game. It's less setup, money, maintenance, and probably will have better rules. Plus I can buy a new one for the cost of a box set or two. I play GW games instead of something else, because I started with them back when I got into it 12 years ago, and I haven't found another company with minis I like more than GW's on a consistent basis.
I guess here's what I don't get: why pay all the money to play 40k if you like the gaming experience chiefly? There are way cheaper/less time-intensive ways to get a game on in a cool alternate world. (See Battlelore, Tannhauser, AT43, etc). I guess that is my main question. Why not pick up the latest Black Library novel for your fluff fix and then hit board game night for the competitive play fix and spend about 10% the cost of 40k?
(And just because the internet is tone neutral, let me state I'm not trying to be a dick - this is the point that I really am honestly asking about!  )
Oh, and in closing, no-one should ever tell another nerd that they are "doing it wrong" or to get out of the hobby - that stuff is for non-nerds! (Unless of course, you're being mean. And then you are doing it wrong. Being a nerd is all about the love!)
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Post by: Ghidorah
MisterMoon wrote:Why don't people paint anymore?
It's my experience that it has always been this way. At least for the last 15 years. The overwhelming majority of people play unpainted/partially painted armies. As we all know, it's very easy to get overwhelmed in this hobby. It is commonplace to buy minis often enough to outweigh your speed at paining. Soon, you find yourself in a sea a grey plastic and boxes of unbuilt kits.
Sadly, though, sooo many people just want to play the game and don't want to paint, can't paint, don't have time to paint, whatever.
It's always been this way.
Ghidorah
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Post by: fullheadofhair
ChaosDave wrote:
Interesting... You both have essentially the same argument for not playing certain people. He wants the best gaming experience for his limited time just like you, only he chooses to play against people who obviously take the hobby seriously enough to paint their figures. You on the other hand won't play against people who want to maximize their gaming experience from a visual stand point. Very similar outlooks from the hobby side vs the gaming side. As far as I can see you both are exactly the same, 2 sides of the same coin.
Nope wrong again.
I won't play against people smug enough to think theirs is the only approach to the hobby.
By smug, I mean comments like "people who obviously take the hobby seriously enough to paint their figures". It is people who make smug comments like that and sit in judgement of less mortals by dictating how they should enjoy the hobby that I don't wish to play against.
Seriously, why do people who make comments like "people who obviously take the hobby seriously enough to paint their figures" think their opinion actually counts for anything on how others decide to take part in a fun hobby.
Sure, people are certainly entitled to say that they will only play against painted armies because that is their choice. Not that many people objects to that line of thinking, but usually it is accompanied by comments like playing with "people who obviously take the hobby seriously enough to paint their figures". When they say that they are stepping over the line and being smug and holier than thou.
I believe that people who use phrase like "people who obviously take the hobby seriously enough to paint their figures" in judgement of others are going to be a pain in the ass to play against so I choose not to play them.
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Post by: Ozymandias
True,TFG is TFG whether he paints his models or not.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
Ghidorah wrote:MisterMoon wrote:Why don't people paint anymore?
It's my experience that it has always been this way. At least for the last 15 years. The overwhelming majority of people play unpainted/partially painted armies. As we all know, it's very easy to get overwhelmed in this hobby. It is commonplace to buy minis often enough to outweigh your speed at paining. Soon, you find yourself in a sea a grey plastic and boxes of unbuilt kits.
Sadly, though, sooo many people just want to play the game and don't want to paint, can't paint, don't have time to paint, whatever.
It's always been this way.
Ghidorah
Very true. In the 17 plus years I have been doing this hobby I can count on two hands (excluding tournements) the number of times I have played against a full painted army that actually looked good. As has been said earlier - badly painted doesn't necessarily add to the gaming experience either. Who here still remembers models with enamel paint on them!!!
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Post by: mattyrm
Tyranid Horde wrote:I think its because some people think its a bother to paint them.
I'm 13,brand new to painting and I've just finished my first battleforce and I'm quite proud.Everything I paint I show to my parents,but still some people just don't like painting
Thats the spirit mate! Im 30 and i show my eternally disintersted girlfriend models i have really painted to a good standard. It makes me proud when i have worked really hard on one and it looks great. You wont grow out of showing it off, trust me!
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Post by: R3con
Paint while your young before work and kids and a wife start eating up your leisure time. =)
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Post by: Ghidorah
fullheadofhair wrote:[Very true. In the 17 plus years I have been doing this hobby I can count on two hands (excluding tournements) the number of times I have played against a full painted army that actually looked good. As has been said earlier - badly painted doesn't necessarily add to the gaming experience either. Who here still remembers models with enamel paint on them!!!
Likewise, but I wouldn't just make the blanket statement about looking good. Looking good doesn't necessarily detract from anything for me. If an army is sub-par or even badly painted, what matters to me is that the painter tried. If somebody slapped paint on just to slap paint on, I don't much like it. There used to be a kid at my FLGS that painted pretty badly. Very bad color choices, colors bleeding into other areas that were not intended to be, BUT... every week he wuld come up with a new model and show it off with great pride.
He knew his stuff wouldn't win him any competitions. He knew it wasn't "good", but he still did his best and he was damned proud of it. In that type of scenario, I don't care how poorly it is painted.
Enamel paints? I had to laugh at that one. A few years back, we had a guy that we called 'Metallic Steve'. He bought a painted Chaos Khorne army off of ebay that had been spray-painted (thickly, I might add) with GOLD enamel paint. Vehicles, infantry, everything. Even the bases were gold.
Ghidorah
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Chipmunks roasting on an open fire...
Personaly, I don't really care, but find that I much prefer seeing painted armies. It tends to show that people are in the hobby for more than just winning.
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Post by: wyomingfox
nathonicus wrote:I guess here's what I don't get: why pay all the money to play 40k if you like the gaming experience chiefly? There are way cheaper/less time-intensive ways to get a game on in a cool alternate world. (See Battlelore, Tannhauser, AT43, etc). I guess that is my main question. Why not pick up the latest Black Library novel for your fluff fix and then hit board game night for the competitive play fix and spend about 10% the cost of 40k?
Well let me expound on a few reasons why someone would prefer to play 40k for the gaming aspect only  :
40k is the system they grew up with and are most familiar with
Friends and local gaming groups play 40k exclusively
The FLGS is a Games Workshop Store, which does not allow people to play anything other than Games Workshop related games
The person finds 40k to be a easier and more enjoyable gaming system. Remember, we all have different tastes.
The person has never been introduced to another gaming system
Hopefully, this removes a bit of the mystery for you
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Post by: Scott-S6
Then why not do the cardboard cut outs on slotta bases? Why bother buying the models?
(unless you only have your local gw to play in)
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Post by: LunaHound
Scott-S6 wrote:Then why not do the cardboard cut outs on slotta bases? Why bother buying the models?
(unless you only have your local gw to play in)
Because everyone have their lvl of accepting what looks good enough to game or not.
You have:
Ppl that find it ok to play with: Checkers -> Chess -> Little Greenman -> Miniatures -> Painted Miniatures -> 3 color minimum -> table top standard ->character standard -> heavy metal -> golden demon
Anyone on that list can always find something to complain about whether its good enough or not.
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Post by: oggers
I don't know why but I had the op's oppinion too.
All my Necrons are painted (badly) as are my sm except my drop pod which is being assembled.
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Post by: Lanrak
Hi all.
To start I belive people should do what parts of the hobby they enjoy.
And the 40k rule set is inferior to FREE alternatives available at 'freewargamesrules'.IMO.
However , perhaps the sheer quantity of minatures that need to be painted puts some people off?
I can paint a few minatures to a 'good enough for me standard' in a couple of days to play a skirmish game .
But the number of hours spent to paint up a 5th ed full 40k army is quite an investment.And maybe this is the reason more people dont paint?
Maybe some people prefer the uniformity of bare platic- undercoat to 'patchwork' look of a part painted army?
Just a thought!
ttfn
Lanrak.
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Post by: Ghidorah
Lanrak wrote:And the 40k rule set is inferior to FREE alternatives available at 'freewargamesrules'.IMO.
However , perhaps the sheer quantity of minatures that need to be painted puts some people off?
I can paint a few minatures to a 'good enough for me standard' in a couple of days to play a skirmish game .
But the number of hours spent to paint up a 5th ed full 40k army is quite an investment.And maybe this is the reason more people dont paint?
Maybe some people prefer the uniformity of bare platic- undercoat to 'patchwork' look of a part painted army?
Man, you really have it out for GW, don't you? A simple thread about painting and you have to slam 40k's rules... lmao
Anyway, for the record, this thread isn't necessarily about painting 40k (or any GW minis) exclusively. I have so many minis from so many companies and games to paint. GW is only a fraction of my stock.
Ghidorah
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Post by: NAVARRO
I dont paint more because my time is very short and since I dont play with unpainted stuff, and sold my last armies, I have nothing finished so no game for me.
But when the moon and all planets are aligned and I finish a army I pick only people with painted stuff.
Why? because for me a painted army not only tells a story but its also a good starting point to talk about modelling.
What others do its their choice really and I respect...
Why dont other peoplel paint? Well some dont like it, others have diferent priorities, some lazy, some like to be diferent you take your pick...
Why some people paint? Well some like it, its a priority for them, some are hiperactive freaks, some like to be diferent you take your pick...
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Post by: carmachu
Scott-S6 wrote:Then why not do the cardboard cut outs on slotta bases? Why bother buying the models?
(unless you only have your local gw to play in)
Who says one hasnt? I seem to recall days of battletech we did just that.
Or perhaps one likes to convert a model and not paint it.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
My friends and I played Battletech with the cardboard pieces until the models came out.
Then we bought a load of them, and converted and painted them, and made scenery, so we could play campaigns with a nice-looking table.
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Post by: nathonicus
You know the more I think about this subject, the more I come to believe that the reason GW hobby games have continued to thrive while so many others have fallen by the wayside, is that the game somehow manages, if not being all things to all people, to a least be one thing to ALL people.
It really is a case of course, as I believe Lunahound put it, that some people like the hobby aspect and some don't, and it's as simple as that.
That said, it's a lot cooler of an experience if people put some time and effort into their models, even if it's just a quick coat of the base color out of a spray can, and then some Liquid Talent i.e. Badab Black over the top.
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Post by: Bookwrack
Lanrak wrote:
Just a thought!
Good lord, not only are you obsessive, but you completely lack any sense of perspective. So now this is GW fault because their games are too big and you have to paint too many models? Here's a tip: if in a thread about painting, your post is, 'go play another game!' perhaps you should stop and think for a moment what drove you to utter such a non sequitor.
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Post by: Ultra Magnus 15
Im new to the hobby myself and only got into it because of the painting. I was and still am really big into WW2 models and stuff and the futuristic aspect was really cool. I think you should always paint your minis, if your going to play a game with them. To look at a painted model and to be able to say you painted something, not something thats glued together plastic is cool.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
fullheadofhair wrote:Ghidorah wrote:MisterMoon wrote:Why don't people paint anymore?
It's my experience that it has always been this way. At least for the last 15 years. The overwhelming majority of people play unpainted/partially painted armies. As we all know, it's very easy to get overwhelmed in this hobby. It is commonplace to buy minis often enough to outweigh your speed at paining. Soon, you find yourself in a sea a grey plastic and boxes of unbuilt kits..
Very true. In the 17 plus years I have been doing this hobby I can count on two hands (excluding tournements) the number of times I have played against a full painted army that actually looked good. As has been said earlier - badly painted doesn't necessarily add to the gaming experience either. Who here still remembers models with enamel paint on them!!!
It's an interesting thing. Around here, I've never seen anyone field an unpainted army. Some minis, sure, but never more than about a dozen in an otherwise painted army. This leads me to suspect there's a lot of variation between different countries' wargaming cultures.
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Post by: LunaHound
Agamemnon2 wrote:
It's an interesting thing. Around here, I've never seen anyone field an unpainted army. Some minis, sure, but never more than about a dozen in an otherwise painted army. This leads me to suspect there's a lot of variation between different countries' wargaming cultures.
Birds of a feather flock together . When someone that doesnt like painting walks into a LGS where almost everyone paints , the peer pressure might eventually
force the gamer to paint , or find another gaming group where painting isnt an issue.
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Post by: Aduro
Nah, it probably has nothing to do with different countries wargaming cultures, as there is probably just as much variation inside of each country.
I think it's about half and half where I'm at.
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Post by: IvanTih
(sarcasam)Because we are lazy,overweight and tactics rule.
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Post by: Hedwerx
I think this "problem" is pretty much a GW issue.
I don't know any historical or sci-fi gamers that would field anything unpainted, there's no rule at my local club and no-one is forced to paint, they just do.
Go to a wargames show like Salute or Colours, and you will not see an unpainted army on a games table.
Go to a historical tournament and you won't see one either, and the "I've painted this with a finger dipped in paint" armies are few and far between..
GW surreptitiously encourage using unpainted figures, by allowing them to be used in store (while vocally championing the painter in their mag as a false standard of "their" hobby)
This is because GW's business model is all about the arms race, and getting more money by enouraging the pocket money brigade to blow it all on the next big thing.
New army lists that superceed the old and make expensive models redundant, new bigger better characters that cost 3 or 4 times the price of a standard trooper for the same amount of materials. and new rulesets that up the ante on army size.
Making those that would maybe paint a smaller force just give up.
38mm is a skirmish scale, it was in 1st and 2nd ed. After 3rd it started going up through company, battalion and brigade sized games as the editions moved on.
In any other wargaming ruleset the scale would drop too, making it easier to field such large armies, but then GW wouldn't sell as many figures would it?
GW doesn't care if you paint your figures, as long as you keep buying them.
In any other aspect of the hobby (and its doing just fine those of you that think GW is the be all and end all of wargames) the hobby is building, painting, and then gaming armies, not just buying pewter.
GW is the only field in which it has slipped into just buying models for buyings sake.
Oh and for the record, I will never use a unpainted or unfinished model in a game. Partially because I think its looks awful, and partially because I think its a cop out.
You can start the ad hominems now if you like.
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Post by: Sidstyler
You can start the ad hominems now if you like.
Die in a fire melon-fether, I bet you like men, etc. etc.
I dunno, I can't really explain what my problem is. I work full time but I'm off Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, I'd care to wager I have more time than some people do to paint and yet I don't actually take advantage of it. I just can't get motivated I guess, I keep finding excuses not to. Like right now I can't prime anything because of the weather. I painted a test model weeks ago and I'm putting off painting the others because I can't think of a good way to paint the bases, that and despite me experimenting with paint additives my paint still came out too thick and I'm scared to paint anything else. I can't finish my army anyway because I refuse to paint my tanks without an airbrush, and I can't afford to drop the cash on one just yet. For the longest time I kept changing my mind on a paint scheme too, I've tried at least four different schemes and I've had to strip models over and over...
If I could afford it I'd just say hell with it and have it commissioned. It'd look better than anything I could do myself, anyway.
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Post by: TyranidTony
For my 2 cents- I have just noticed a trend in the gamer world in the last five years or so. When I started playing everyone had one army they liked - it was "their" army and we all basilcly Identified by the playstyle of the army and how we followed or didn't follow it. We then all had our own characters- Basicly my friend played Ultramarines so he had a Captain maned after himself...ect. We all (rougly13-15) of us had fully painted armies and would pretty much only play with fully painted- even if we weren't the best painters... As the years went on and more and more armies came out and release dates on new editions and codexes came faster and faster- slowly we would pick up a second army and some of us a third... By the end mostly everyone had like 8 armies and really had no loyalty to the armies they played anymore- then the new groups that would pick up the game saw that that is how people did it and they picked up armies- then switched over and over..with this influx of everyone playing 50 armies- there was little to no motivation to paint them since no one really did. That and there tends to be a lazyness in the newer gamers I have met- they seem to have a defeatist attitude about painting- they see something I paint and are automaticly intimidated- I will sit down with them and show them that there is very very little talent to painting minis- it is mostly skill and hard work- if you have steady hands and put the time in you will get better. They paint one thing- are dissapointed by it and then say- eh- screw it I can't paint worth a damn- A precious few will stay though and eventually become very good painters- which is always rewarding.
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Post by: Sidstyler
if you have steady hands
Damn, another excuse. I don't have very steady hands.
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Post by: TyranidTony
Why is that- medical condition, caffeine, ect?
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Post by: Sidstyler
Hell, could be all the caffeine then. I drink a lot of soda...I should probably cut that out.
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Post by: TyranidTony
You should try resting you hand on something while you paint- sometimes I have to if I have had too much soda- hahah- makes a big difference- I have seen people actually holding the model with one hand and the brush in th other up in the air- struggling- and I had to say- hey man rest them bones- you are better off resting your hand on something while you paint...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I've thought for some time that the Golden Daemon culture sets the standard too high for painting.
It's too much of a challenge so maybe people don't even start.
No-one playing historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's photography. It's impossible when you need to paint 200-300 figures.
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Post by: Sidstyler
I've always thought that myself.
And stupidly enough I never thought to rest my hand on something, I'm one of those paint in the air types. I guess I get too into it whenever I do paint, I get real close to the model, hold it under the light to see if I got everything, etc.
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Post by: privateer4hire
Kilkrazy wrote:I've thought for some time that the Golden Daemon culture sets the standard too high for painting.
It's too much of a challenge so maybe people don't even start.
No-one playing historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's photography. It's impossible when you need to paint 200-300 figures.
Does GW or any other group have a competition that rates you overall? That is, do they do army list comp, generalship, painting, sportsmanship like an Overall Hobbyist kind of thing?
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Post by: TyranidTony
It is hard to be judged by them- I used to use CMON- but they are usually based on popularity and not by skills- GD awards can usually be a good way- but sometimes there are shennanigans and such like I have seen before...
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Post by: willydstyle
My experience has been the opposite of the OPs.
When I first started playing 40k, back in 94-95, most of the guys I played with had mostly unpainted armies, with maybe a character or special vehicle painted up fairly nice.
I didn't start painting until I started attending tournaments, where the paint score was a big part of how well you could do.
Now, the LGS where I play features mostly painted armies, and the guys who do play with unpainted figures generally make good progress on their minis from week-to-week. It's not anything enforced in our store, but I think the nubs are inspired to paint because we have some pretty decently painted armies on the tables.
Neither my Chaos or my Eldar aren't anything special, but when I'm playing another fully painted army, people generally stop by and toss out a few compliments, even people who don't play the game.
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Post by: MrGiggles
Myself, I like painting....more than playing it turns out.
That's just me.
One of the nice things about our hobby is that there are lots of different angles to it.
On the gaming side, I'll play unpainted armies, no worries. I'd rather play a painted army though, simply because part of the fun for me is seeing the nicely painted armies of other folks. They don't have to be masterpieces, but I enjoy seeing what other folks have done with their armies.
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Post by: TyranidTony
No I get it- I am the same way- especially with 5th ed.- 5th pretty much killed 40k for me- so I don't play anymore- but the modeling and painting- I will always love- and they seem to get better every year...
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Post by: ZacktheChaosChild
I think its just because people are lazier than they were 25 years ago... most kids these days ARE lazy, it's quite sad...
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Post by: FITZZ
I honestly enjoy the painting/modeling/conversion side of 40k over gaming,don't get me wrong,I love a good game with friends,but I tend to be much happier working on some "idea" I have.
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Post by: Solorg
I like the idea of using a "painting score" as a part of your overall tournament ranking. It would not prevent you from entering nonpainted armies, but it would prevent you from winning if you did.
Then again, many tournaments I have played disqualify you instantly if you play an unpainted or partially painted army.
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Post by: solkan
Bah, people don't paint anymore because they spend all their time on forums talking about why people don't paint anymore.
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Post by: Ultra Magnus 15
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Post by: Lanrak
Hi all.
Ultra Magnus 15.
'historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's'
Could you please explain this statement?
AFAIK ALL historical wargames focus more on the GAMPLAY ,and far less on the minatures.(As many historical companies just write rule sets OR produce minatures, in an open market .)
And as previously stated Historical players always paint thier minatures to play the games.As playing the games is the point of collecting and painting to them.(And 'table top standard' is normal for the majority of historical players NOT GD standard.)
And to defend my previuos post.
As pointed out, simply using counters and cardboard cut outs instead on minatures do not detract from the game play of other games.
The reason I mentioned FREE alternative rule sets for people who prefer just gaming without the emphasis on minatures.Is that without takeing advantage of the the full asthetic content, there is very little to recomend the 40k game!
Hedwerx wrote.
'I think this "problem" is pretty much a GW issue.
I don't know any historical or sci-fi gamers that would field anything unpainted, there's no rule at my local club and no-one is forced to paint, they just do.
Go to a wargames show like Salute or Colours, and you will not see an unpainted army on a games table.
Go to a historical tournament and you won't see one either, and the "I've painted this with a finger dipped in paint" armies are few and far between..
GW surreptitiously encourage using unpainted figures, by allowing them to be used in store (while vocally championing the painter in their mag as a false standard of "their" hobby)
This is because GW's business model is all about the arms race, and getting more money by enouraging the pocket money brigade to blow it all on the next big thing.
New army lists that superceed the old and make expensive models redundant, new bigger better characters that cost 3 or 4 times the price of a standard trooper for the same amount of materials. and new rulesets that up the ante on army size.
Making those that would maybe paint a smaller force just give up.
28mm is a skirmish scale, it was in 1st and 2nd ed. After 3rd it started going up through company, battalion and brigade sized games as the editions moved on.
In any other wargaming ruleset the scale would drop too, making it easier to field such large armies, but then GW wouldn't sell as many figures would it?
GW doesn't care if you paint your figures, as long as you keep buying them.
In any other aspect of the hobby (and its doing just fine those of you that think GW is the be all and end all of wargames) the hobby is building, painting, and then gaming armies, not just buying pewter.
GW is the only field in which it has slipped into just buying models for buyings sake. '
Thankyou for fully explaining my POV in detail.
GW PLC emphasis on selling minatures by the easiest available methods .Appears to be having a negative effects on everything else.
TTFN
Lanrak.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
Ultra Magnus 15.
'historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's'
Could you please explain this statement?
I said that.
What I mean is GW love to publish superb looking photos of beautifully painted figures. We all know the kind of thing and lots of people on this site do fantastic work, here's an example from a Dakka member.
Here's an example of what I would call typical historical painting:
from here... http://www.io.com/~beckerdo/minis/mini28/PerryConfederateArmy/index.html
The painting technique is much simpler, and very effective since the figures are used 'en masse'. This army contains the equivalent of over 200 figures.
My point is that some users see the top flight GW or expert painter pictures, displayed double lifesize thanks to detailed digital photography, and the quality intimidates them. Knowing it must take hours to paint a single figure, they extrapolate that to the dozens of figures in their army and give up.
Historical players usually play with larger armies than 40K and adapt painting techniques to make it simpler so they can finish armies in reasonable time. Historical armies for mass battle type games in 25mm/15mm usually need about 150-250 figures each.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Frazzled wrote:Remember, the Mod team is your last line of defense from this...
O_o...What?! That is like the Gamer's ultimate trump card against women...
Girlfriend: OMG...are those plastic toys in your closet?
Gamer: OMG...is that Twilight book in your purse?
Girlfriend: But you play with tiny army men!
Gamer: But you watch the Twilight series!
Girlfriend: Whatever, you are such a dork
Gamer: Whatever, at least I am not a necro-pedophiliac
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Post by: Anpu42
Gee I go offline for a few days and this thing explodes. I am going to make myself one of those number lists. The organization may make no sense as I tend to get distracted [ADD and all], but they seem to get noticed. I hope this inspires others to paint.
1.Currently most of my armies [1x Space Wolf, 1x Marine, and 1x Imperial Guard] are painted if not just primed.
2.My Space Wolves [only 80% are GW figs]] were all finished except for any new ones that I got, but then I joined the internet community and now the whole thing is getting a repaint. This is going to take time. To keep to sanity [to late] I decided to organize them into reunites and I started with Logan, 2 Wolf Guard Terminator Packs and his Grey Wolves. It has been a week, but all that is left is decals, basing and clear coating.
3.My Marine Chapter the Imperial Tigers [100% GW figs] is all painted, but the decals, basin and clear coat [see a theme here}. I have one squad of scouts to repaint and a Ravenwing to finish giving the details with.
4.My Imperial Guard/Daemon Hunters [20% GW figs] as only basically painted. They are painted Flat White or Primer Grey [whatever I had available when it was time to primer them] and then the pants are green or grey, guns black and the shirts are depending on which squad they are. About half the bases have been painted green. Mi had to outsource my Company Command Squad because the detail on Creed was killing me.
5.I have been painting sense the mid 70s, mostly military, but also cars and airplanes to. I even belonged to the Model of the Month Club.
This bring me to may points
1.I enjoy the painting part of the hobby [Yes Hobby not Life]
2.I enjoy the War Gaming part of the hobby [Yes Hobby not Life]
3.I personally hate fielding unpainted armies.
4.I also play D&D, Shadowrun, d20 Modern, BattleTech, Star Fleet Battles, Battlefield: Evolution. and would like to play some Star Wars.
5.I belonging to 1 Anime Club, 3 Furry Clubs/Groups, 1 [and maybe soon 2] Medieval Recreation Groups.
6.if I can find the time to paint a few hours a week I am doing good.
7.if during that time my minds say yes you are up to painting then I paint.
8.if I don’t paint, I don’t.
9.I have had time where I painted a Model/Squad/Army that I was proud of only to have one of the persons look at it and say nothing, or a patronizing “it looks ok” to “why are you wasting my time”.
10.I have been encouraged to paint better and told, “Why are you Fielding the crappy painted army”. [and this from a mostly unpainted only half primed army player]
11.I have had my RPG groups players tell me I am wasting my time or “Why do you play a game in that dark depressing universe?”
Here are my answers [insert the answer to the appropriate statement]
1.“this is a Hobby gaming is not a Life.”
2.“how I waist my time is my business, how I waist your time is your business.”
3.I would rather you have a painted army than a not, but that wont make me not want to play you.
4.“thanks for the critique, now tell me why would I want to play you now?”
5.“Real life is always an acceptable excuse.”
If you really hate unpainted armies and enjoy painting armies try this.
1.“Hey that is a cool army, what is your paint scheme going to be? You don’t have the time, well then would you like me to paint them for you?”
2.If you really hate unpainted armies then convince your LFGS to have a massive tournament, but unpainted armies always loose initiative.
What I think I am trying to say is Encourage Painting, don’t Badger them into Painting
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I think overly complex painting lessons put people off.
Used to have a GW employee round my way who was an excellent painter, but a rubbish teacher. You'd ask him for example, for a reccomended technique to do rust, and get a five minute reply.
My skills simply weren't a match for his, and he seemed unable to go back a few dozen steps and suggest techniques for those with middling skills.
Now, do this to a total newb, and the whole painting business becomes a confusing mess of technique names.
Far better in my mind to show them quick and simple techniques (all hail the GW Washes!) and then slowly progress from there, as, when and if the Hobbyist wants too.
I want my models to look good, but I'm not fussed about winning any Painting Competitions!
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Post by: Bat Manuel
Personally the continual rules changes and the need to keep changing ones army are the reason I stopped painting. I used to paint for tournaments but since the game is not to my liking I stopped. It's also very annoying when I have a painted army of around 100 figs and a new codex comes out and I have to scrap 50 and paint new ones just to make it legal.
I liked expanding my armies, I hate replacing them.
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Post by: Anpu42
Bat Manuel wrote:Personally the continual rules changes and the need to keep changing ones army are the reason I stopped painting. I used to paint for tournaments but since the game is not to my liking I stopped. It's also very annoying when I have a painted army of around 100 figs and a new codex comes out and I have to scrap 50 and paint new ones just to make it legal.
I liked expanding my armies, I hate replacing them.
This statement confuses me.
When the new Space Puppy Codex came out I only had to replace a hand full of figures, I just expanded they all had a new home.
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Post by: Bat Manuel
Anpu42 wrote:Bat Manuel wrote:Personally the continual rules changes and the need to keep changing ones army are the reason I stopped painting. I used to paint for tournaments but since the game is not to my liking I stopped. It's also very annoying when I have a painted army of around 100 figs and a new codex comes out and I have to scrap 50 and paint new ones just to make it legal.
I liked expanding my armies, I hate replacing them.
This statement confuses me.
When the new Space Puppy Codex came out I only had to replace a hand full of figures, I just expanded they all had a new home.
Lucky you.
Look into the changes of Marines over the years and you'll find that several common builds are not even legal anymore, they even took away my favorite razorback and then brought it back a few years later
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Post by: Anpu42
What I don’t get is a new codex changing half of your figures.
You have 50+ Marines armed with a Bolt Guns and Bolt Pistols or Close Combat Weapons. It has been that ways since 1st edition, so a new does not change that.
A few characters that make up 10% of your force change.
I had that to when [I think it was 2nd to 3rd] and they got rid of the Autocannon for marines. They turned into Las-Cannons or Heavy Bolters [4 figures changed].
The biggest change I have had to make was with my Space Wolves. My Wolf Guard Heavy Weapons went a way and the number of Wolf Guard Terminator Heavy Weapons Changed. I now have 2 sets of Long Fangs and 3 Extra Wolf Guard Packs.
The biggest change I have had to make was with my Imperial Tigers Space Marine Chapter was now all of my Sergeants that were armed with Paired Lighting Claws are now becoming Vanguards and I had to come with 6 new sergeants.
The Imperial Guard Codex was good for me for once. It was the 1st time I could field a IG army without getting new figures. The only one that got screwed was done in 4th when my one Veteran Sergeant with now illegal Combi-Bolter. Now he is going to be one of my DH Storm Trooper Sargents.
I understand that the Orks have some problems, but I have not have seen the others.
So forgive my ignorance for the other armies.
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Post by: romulus571
solkan wrote:Bah, people don't paint anymore because they spend all their time on forums talking about why people don't paint anymore.
QFT. Can I use that in my sig solkan?
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Post by: Anpu42
I paint and while my brain reboots and the paint dries I Troll
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Post by: Ozymandias
I was going to paint and then Modern Warfare 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 came out.
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Post by: Oedive
I can't speak for everyone else, but for me it is about time. I buy the game so I can play painting is just a fringe benefit for me.
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Post by: Pika_power
solkan wrote:Bah, people don't paint anymore because they spend all their time on forums talking about why people don't paint anymore.
QFT x2. I am definitely guilty of this. I should walk a few meters and apply some of those miracle washes to a couple of orks.
In fact, I will. Expect a report back once two orks have been coated in Devlan mud.
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Post by: Samus666
I haven't done any painting in about a year and a half. I have boxes and boxes full of unpainted minis - most of them are assembled, some aren't. There are several reasons for this:
1) Time. I spend a lot of time with my family, and also have a lot of hobbies and interests. Squeezing everything in is a challenge, so things get priority if they're important or very enjoyable. Painting, sadly, is neither.
2) The last time I painted, the project was an apocalypse size Blood Angels succesor chapter. One red mini after another, after another, after another... it kinda destroyed my ability to enjoy painting. Although, the 'over-indulged' feeling is finally starting to pass.
3) I'm addicted to converting - particularly kit-bashing. Over the past year I've continually made one ambitious conversion after another, not pausing to paint my projects in between. Plus, some of my kit-bashes have been so ambitious that I've had to save up the components until I had everything I wanted. Thus, lots of grey plastic, and still 30ish unassembled minis, and many many minis assembled but still with some finishing touches to be added.
I think I will do some more painting soon though. I starting to get the urge back, and it'd be insane for me to get more minis before clearing some of my backlog, so that gives me an incentive. As soon as my latest kitbash is complete, I'll start finishing off, priming and painting one unit at a time.
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Post by: LunaHound
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Used to have a GW employee round my way who was an excellent painter, but a rubbish teacher. You'd ask him for example, for a reccomended technique to do rust, and get a five minute reply.
Most excellent painters wont give away their secret on what makes their painting good.
The only sure way is to sit next to them and watch them paint from beginning till finish of a model.
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Post by: Moopy
I used to paint, but now I'm in school and there's not even enough time to play. : /
I like painted armies, but I realize that people's lives can be really hectic, so I don't get disappointed if I don't play against one. If I DO get to play against a well paint it army, I consider it like having desert after a meal- I enjoy it when I have it.
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Post by: Redbeard
LunaHound wrote:
Most excellent painters wont give away their secret on what makes their painting good.
The only sure way is to sit next to them and watch them paint from beginning till finish of a model.
I have to disagree here. I have only ever met one painter who refused to share a technique. Most people are more than happy to.
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Post by: willydstyle
Redbeard wrote:LunaHound wrote:
Most excellent painters wont give away their secret on what makes their painting good.
The only sure way is to sit next to them and watch them paint from beginning till finish of a model.
I have to disagree here. I have only ever met one painter who refused to share a technique. Most people are more than happy to.
I've had mixed experiences here. At my LGS we have a painting group that gets together on thursdays (unfortunately, school interferes with my attendance). One guy, who paints pretty well (say 7 on a 10 scale) happily shares techniques. When I found a great way to do gems with washes, I shared my technique with the others as well. There is one guy, however, who paints closer to 8-9, and makes his living selling painted minis on e-bay, shares absolutely nothing.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Ozymandias wrote:I was going to paint and then Modern Warfare 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 came out. 
My problem but WoW is to blame in my case.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
Ozymandias wrote:I was going to paint and then Modern Warfare 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 came out. 
Same here.
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Post by: dancingcricket
There does seem to be a inverse relationship between "Should be painted" and "Good at Playing." I'm here to play, honestly, I couldn't care less how your models look. Mine are painted because where I live, you have to have them painted decently to have a chance to win overall in the tournaments. If I didn't have all the freetime at work, I'd just be going for best general.
Fortunately, nobody here is rude enough to get on your case if you have unpainted models. Or stupid enough. Start being a snob about any part of the hobby up here, and you quickly find yourself without anyone to play with, and nobody checking out your fancy new paint scheme. There are certain benefits to having a small community. And an armed one, people are really polite up here. I guess there is something to that saying after all...
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Post by: Hedwerx
teehee!
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Post by: Capt. Von Reaper
Painting is not my favorite part the modeling is but I try my best on the main HQ and Elites. To me you should at least have them primed so that way you can go paint when ever you have a little free time. I live were there is not much gamming so when I get a chance I try and make the most of it by bringing moslty painted models and always checking out my compeditors models and asking them about diffrent ways of painting and modeling. But just have fun make painting just that not a chore!
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