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GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 20:55:02


Post by: WarhammerTabletop


Hi fellow dakka members I was just at my local GW talking to my friends about my new guard army im making, I was thinking of using cadians and attaching pig iron heads so I don't have a normal cadian army, a redshirt walked by me and must have overheard and said "Then your not supporting games workshop and we would have to through you out of the store." The redshirt walked of, me and my friends were pissed to here that gw doesn't allow a simple head SWAP just to give some taste to the army. Has this happened to anyone else, and is this a rule for all stores? Also shouldn't we be allowed to do what WE want with OUR money?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:01:27


Post by: Redbeard


You are allowed to do what you want with your money. You are allowed to buy whatever you want. You are allowed to build it however you want. You are allowed to glue on bitz from other companies.

The problem stems from your expectation that you be allowed to do whatever you want on someone else's property. GW Stores are not publically owned spaces, they're owned (or leased) by GW. GW makes them available to people who want to play with GW products as a way to promote their products.

Expecting to be able to play with someone else's models in a GW store is like expecting to buy a burger at Burger King and eat it in a McDonalds. .

You're entitled to do whatever you want with your own stuff. It's when you want to use someone else's stuff, in this case, their tables, that you have to follow their rules.

In this case, I don't think they're being unreasonable. If you want to make your models with alternate heads (a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do, BTW) you just have to accept that you might not be able to play them in GW's store. Just as you wouldn't be able to play Warmachine, or M:TG in a GW store.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:04:51


Post by: WarhammerTabletop


Its not like im buying a completely new product and doing "count as" I just want to switch out the heads. To me its like eating a burger from burger king but using Mc Donalds ketchup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmm Burgers


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:09:16


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


I was under the impression you could use alternative heads or other parts as long as a certain majority percentage of the model's makeup was GW?

So you could use a warjack's arm instead of a powerfist on a dreadnought for example?

Perhaps one of the Games Workshop staff who post here could clarify the official position?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:09:18


Post by: krusty


and thats why you dont play in GW stores, plain and simple...
things like those that were mentioned here will make LGS s better, always.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:10:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


THIS NEWS JUST IN!

One Redshirt is a knobend, and entire company is condemned on his actions!

More when we get it folks.

Conversions are fine and dandy, whether you have added non-GW bitz or not. The line is usually drawn when you use a proxy model from another manufacturer, or the model isn't predominantly GW.

What's the difference? If someone wanted to replicate your efforts, they still have to buy Cadians from GW, then cough up for the conversion parts. But using non-GW models, or basing it on a non-GW (should really say Citadel I guess) body, with perhaps just a Bolter (for arguments sake) means GW see little, if any cut.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:11:12


Post by: The Power Cosmic


Really, would they even notice?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:14:40


Post by: Cane


Decisions like these probably depend on the local GW staff more than anything else. I've never been to an official store but from various forums people have said they were able to use third party heads and kit bashed conversions made from non-GW companies without any trouble. And then on the flipside you have this.

Imo those guys should look at official GW tournament rules. If the model is legal in a tournament setting than it should be more than fine in the store although it is the store owner's right to do what they wish.

WarhammerTabletop wrote:Its not like im buying a completely new product and doing "count as" I just want to switch out the heads. To me its like eating a burger from burger king but using Mc Donalds ketchup.


Not a good example; you don't buy ketchup after all I suppose a better one would be having McDonald fries at a Burger King.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:15:37


Post by: mikhaila


First, maybe go talk to the guy and see if he was serious? Sounds to me like someone is just putting on over on you and you bought into it. Now, if he is serious, go get a clarification from the store manager about the policy. After all, GW makes just as much money selling you cadians as they do selling you cadians and you swapping heads.

So..
1) find out if redshirt was serious
2) if serious, go talk to the manager
3) if manager backs up the redshirt, decide if you want to model them still, and just don't play at that store.
4) no matter what happens, know that we will be going for 8 pages condemning GW for this, and we will not be swayed by anything even resembling what actually happened!


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:16:00


Post by: Bignutter


I think there is abit more to this than you've put....

If your at home- fair play- do what you please- no-one really cares

If its in a GW store, their store- their rules- usually "you should use GW models" conversions and such really depends on the manager- I know that in a hell of a lot of stores they are ok with it as long as it is mostly GW parts (so headswaps are fine... giving lasguns to green army men would be frowned upon)

If there is a problem- talk it through with the manager, because technically the buck stops with him in the store.


At the end of the day, the stores are their to promote the products and the hobby- If your doing something that would potentially damage the store's business why should they let you play there? Having said that I'd view a headswap as not damaging the business so get on with it- especially since they can look damn cool if they are the ones I think you mean,


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:18:53


Post by: skyth


If they have an issue with that, they have serious problems. The Cadian troopers come with heads, so they are not losing sales on heads...You are just buying some extra stuff elsewhere.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:20:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


And once again for the hard of understanding.

One Staffer being an idiot does not company policy make.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:21:56


Post by: Valhallan42nd


It sounds like the redshirt in question is over-zealous, and is pulling policy out of thin air. Either that, or is misunderstanding policy.

I've played at RTT's at GW stores with cadians with pigiron heads, and pointed the heads out to staff, who've liked it. Talk to the Manager of said store, and see what he says.

I've heard it expressed as ratio of parts, some say 90%, some say 51%. But I don't think they are any firm "in a memo" guidelines.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:22:16


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


If you bought 50 cadians and swapped the heads out, GW have still sold the cadians as if no swapped had taken place, the only bonus is a smaller company made a profit for the Additional sale of heads to provide your minis with an alternative look.

Your the customer, the decision is yours. Either you pursue it and they concede in which case grats, or they do not and then you have a decision to make about how much of your money and patronage GW deserves.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:22:24


Post by: Mannahnin


I agree with Redbeard. The conversation you had was, in effect, you advertising another company’s products while in GW’s store. It’s just not cricket.

I will guess, however, that if the rest of the army is GW stuff (just apart from the heads) it’s very likely to be ignored or overlooked if you just don’t specifically draw attention to it while in the store. I’ve seen non-GW models fly under the radar at GTs, too. As long as most of your stuff is GW, and you don’t make a point of drawing attention to the non-GW stuff, you’re probably fine.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:25:46


Post by: Kilkrazy


You can do what you like at home or at your club. In GW's shop you have to abide by their rules.

Check with the store's manager if you can use a head-swapped army.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:29:08


Post by: Timmah


So, if I use modeling glue or super glue, can I still play at a GW store? Or do I have to buy and use GW's glue?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:32:19


Post by: Kanluwen


That's a moronic position, Timmah. There's no way to enforce any form of rule like that, and people have different preferences for what hobby tools they use.

Like Mad Dok said though, just because one redshirt says something does not make it a company policy.
Certainly it doesn't make it important enough to take it to THE INTARWEBZ!. Common sense dictates to ask the manager, not the register jockeys.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:33:33


Post by: Trench-Raider


I'm in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Doc here.
The staffer quoted in the OP was being an idiot. The actual rules in regards to conversions etc in the tourny and in store gaming state that a model much be made up of at least 75% GW parts.
That being said, GW's "play only with our toys" rules are mostly unenforcable. I've said it many times before and even demonstrated it on occasion.

TR


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:34:47


Post by: Howard A Treesong


Their position isn't consistent. They've used other people's models in their own magazine. Not other wargames manufacturers admitedly, but they have shown conversions from military plastic kits.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:37:02


Post by: Kanluwen


So what?

There's not exactly an abundance of 28mm heroic scale armored vehicles to work from(although there's really none, and you end up using 1/35), and the Rhino to Leman Russ/Hydra/Whatever only looks good the first few dozen times.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:41:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Howard A Treesong wrote:Their position isn't consistent. They've used other people's models in their own magazine. Not other wargames manufacturers admitedly, but they have shown conversions from military plastic kits.


And that's the mark.

A Military Kit remains pretty much generic. They are less endorsing another company, and instead endorsing a real world design rendered into model kit form, with lots of GW parts added.

But say, a Warmachine kit, or a Rackham kit. Quite clearly non-GW, and available from a single source, that is doing themselves no favours. For every person who only buys that specific kit for that specific conversion (losing GW say, £30) there will be a person who gets involved in that game. Not good business sense at all, I'm sure you will agree.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:42:03


Post by: Orkeosaurus


Cane wrote:
WarhammerTabletop wrote:Its not like im buying a completely new product and doing "count as" I just want to switch out the heads. To me its like eating a burger from burger king but using Mc Donalds ketchup.


Not a good example; you don't buy ketchup after all I suppose a better one would be having McDonald fries at a Burger King.
Still not a good example, as those are purchased seperately, and Cadian heads aren't.

It would be most like going to McDonalds, ordering a burger, and then throwing out the pickles they give you and putting pickles you brought from home on it instead, because you like them to be crunchier or something.


The store owner has the right to make any policy they want regarding their own buildings, but in this case keep in mind that the redshirt isn't GW itself, and might be overstepping his authority/misinterpreting his duties. I would try and ask the manager there what the policy is.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:42:43


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


But that won't be a problem if the GW game and miniatures are the best now would it?

It's hardly poaching.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:43:35


Post by: malfred


A head swap?

Should be fine. A head swap doesn't replace any product you would have bought
from them. Models come with heads included, so if you're using the models
but with different heads, you haven't bought something in place of a product
you would have bought from GW.

Does that make sense?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:45:27


Post by: Cane


Orkeosaurus wrote:
Cane wrote:
WarhammerTabletop wrote:Its not like im buying a completely new product and doing "count as" I just want to switch out the heads. To me its like eating a burger from burger king but using Mc Donalds ketchup.


Not a good example; you don't buy ketchup after all I suppose a better one would be having McDonald fries at a Burger King.
Still not a good example, as those are purchased seperately, and Cadian heads aren't.

It would be most like going to McDonalds, ordering a burger, and then throwing out the pickles they give you and putting pickles you brought from home on it instead, because you like them to be crunchier or something.



Well fries come with combo's so nyah!

Interesting that the OP changed the thread title; used to be "GW is Evil" as seen in the quoted replies


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:45:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Please put down the flog....the Horse isn't so much dead as was never truly alive.

GW have a policy of asking people not to use other Wargames Companies in their stores/events.

GW do not have a policy saying conversions must only contain 100% GW parts.

There is no issue here, beyond a single staff member being a knobend.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:46:57


Post by: Cane


malfred wrote:

Does that make sense?


Yea but to play redshirt's advocate it also advertises that there are other wargaming companies and models for customers to spend their cash on which could lead to more than just a head swap.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:47:07


Post by: generalgrog


Orkeosaurus wrote:
It would be most like going to McDonalds, ordering a burger, and then throwing out the pickles they give you and putting pickles you brought from home on it instead, because you like them to be crunchier or something.


NO.. No... no..... completely wrong! As you can't actually see the pickles because they are hidden under the buns, ketchup, etc.

The proper description would be to go into Mcdonalds with a seedless bun that you brought from home and proceed to butcher the quarter pounder, by removing the seeded bun and replacing said seeed bun with the barbaric seedless bun.

GG


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 21:52:56


Post by: Polonius


It's been my experience that GW store employees, like the general population, simply contain a certain number of people for whom a minuscule amount of power has lead to an ego trip.

As others have suggested, make sure he's serious, discuss with the store manager, and if necessary ask for the number of a district manager, because this is, by all accounts, a highly individual rule.



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:00:42


Post by: WarhammerTabletop


Thanks all for the comments i'll call the manager later today.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:13:33


Post by: Valhallan42nd


I think we'd all like to hear his response.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:14:41


Post by: Kanluwen


Why?

We know what the company policy is.

75% or more of any converted model must be GW to be tournament legal(in an "official" GW tournament).


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:31:59


Post by: LunaHound



I agree with Redbeard and Mannahnin , there is no set in stone whats allowed or not . But the moment you used another companie's bits onto GW's that is so cool that catches everyone's eye that they want to check the other companies out, GW will not be happy.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:42:58


Post by: Thorgut


Kanluwen wrote:Why?

We know what the company policy is.

75% or more of any converted model must be GW to be tournament legal(in an "official" GW tournament).

That's fine and dandy but we're not talking about a tournament.

A headswap means they've still sold the Cadians to begin with but what if that company also produces cheaper Cadian stand-ins? You've just indirectly advertised them to someone.

You have to keep in mind that GW centres are shops, despite how they'd like to portray them.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:51:11


Post by: Valhallan42nd


Yes, they're shops, but the red-shirt is likely in the wrong in this case. He made a judgement call that will likely be reversed.

A smart manager will likely look at people reinventing GW models as exciting to his customers. GW sells off of people being excited about models. He loses 6 dollars (the cost of pig iron heads) but gains sales from people who are inspired by that neat looking army.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:56:37


Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable


Try not saying it out loud and noone will care.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 22:59:33


Post by: Bignutter


So how did this turn to burgers again?

Ask the manager as others have said- but again there is nothing stopping you doing whatever the heck you like, heck you could even cover the models in BBQ sauce and eat them.... i wouldn't suggest it, they don't taste good

(see this talk of food made me hungry)


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 23:03:10


Post by: whitedragon


Kanluwen wrote:Why?

We know what the company policy is.

75% or more of any converted model must be GW to be tournament legal(in an "official" GW tournament).


Source please?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/11 23:30:08


Post by: Specs


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And once again for the hard of understanding.

One Staffer being an idiot does not company policy make.


How many staffers need to do something bone-headed before you concede bone-headedness is GW policy?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 00:52:13


Post by: thekerrick


This has to be a location thing. The ONLY store close to me that I have available happens to be a GW. Its the reason I got back into the game. The folks there are EXTREMELY cool with just about anything. Some of the regulars have insane conversions going on and no one seems to notice. I play on their tables and usually buy a few boxes when I can to help support them.

Sounds like either my store is too laid back to care about the rules and enforce them and the redshirt was right, or that he was just joking.

Talk to the manager.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 00:56:35


Post by: Kanluwen


whitedragon wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Why?

We know what the company policy is.

75% or more of any converted model must be GW to be tournament legal(in an "official" GW tournament).


Source please?

You find it.
I don't care enough about tournaments to be bothered, and there's no GW stores within a five hour drive of me.

The point is, that's always been the stated stance in regards to tournaments. "The majority of the model(75% or more) must be Citadel products to be considered legal for painting contests, or even playability in official Games Workshop sponsored tournaments", if I remember the exact quote right.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 01:52:28


Post by: WarhammerTabletop


I called and the manger said he didn't really care but the redshirt wasnt that happy about being wrong.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 01:52:33


Post by: WarhammerTabletop


But the other local gw I called said I couldn't so I know what store im goning to go to know.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 02:11:29


Post by: LunaHound


Kanluwen wrote:
whitedragon wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Why?

We know what the company policy is.

75% or more of any converted model must be GW to be tournament legal(in an "official" GW tournament).


Source please?

You find it.
I don't care enough about tournaments to be bothered, and there's no GW stores within a five hour drive of me.

The point is, that's always been the stated stance in regards to tournaments. "The majority of the model(75% or more) must be Citadel products to be considered legal for painting contests, or even playability in official Games Workshop sponsored tournaments", if I remember the exact quote right.


I dont think its up to whitedragon to find it when you are the one that brought the % up.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 03:10:38


Post by: carmachu


WarhammerTabletop wrote:Hi fellow dakka members I was just at my local GW talking to my friends about my new guard army im making, I was thinking of using cadians and attaching pig iron heads so I don't have a normal cadian army, a redshirt walked by me and must have overheard and said "Then your not supporting games workshop and we would have to through you out of the store." The redshirt walked of, me and my friends were pissed to here that gw doesn't allow a simple head SWAP just to give some taste to the army. Has this happened to anyone else, and is this a rule for all stores? Also shouldn't we be allowed to do what WE want with OUR money?


When the hell did GW become such Nazi's about model converstions? YOu bought the Cadian models, just not using the heads. I still have old citdel journals that have awesome converstions that were majority GW parts they raved about......


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunaHound wrote:

I dont think its up to whitedragon to find it when you are the one that brought the % up.


From what I recall, it use to be an old GT rule on model converstion either for golden demons and/or models played in the GT.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 04:37:56


Post by: Howlingmoon


MeanGreenStompa wrote:I was under the impression you could use alternative heads or other parts as long as a certain majority percentage of the model's makeup was GW?

So you could use a warjack's arm instead of a powerfist on a dreadnought for example?

Perhaps one of the Games Workshop staff who post here could clarify the official position?


the model must be 60% Games Workshop parts unless it is a completely original sculpt.

that Redshirt is a fool. If he gives you a hard time bring it to the store manager. If the store manager is also a knob, go up the food chain and enjoys the lulz when their is a new staff at that store.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 05:34:08


Post by: Russ Den Army Painting


May i just point out in a GW hosted Pre Heresy Game diorama they used Maximini Heads!


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 05:36:02


Post by: Mad Monk's Mekshop


As if you wouldn't be allowed to. I do it to my vehicles all the time. Only one of my many lemans is 100% GW all the others are kitbashed with tamiya products...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 05:47:05


Post by: garret


What makes no sense to me is your still buying the heads. When you buy lets say devestaters and want to swap the heads you still paid 45 bucks(?) with the heads in the kit.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 05:58:19


Post by: Kanluwen


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Please put down the flog....the Horse isn't so much dead as was never truly alive.

GW have a policy of asking people not to use other Wargames Companies in their stores/events.

GW do not have a policy saying conversions must only contain 100% GW parts.

There is no issue here, beyond a single staff member being a knobend.

Read this.
Read it again.
Read it a third time, or until you realize that this is exactly what is going on.

It is not a GW policy to screw you out with your Pig Iron heads. They'd only enforce that if you were using full Pig Iron bodies, APCs, etc.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 06:26:50


Post by: Bramnero


I agree that it was bit over the top to ask you to leave, but, technically its not that strange. Imagine your in a subway restaurant and someone brings in a whole lotta McDonalds, so, naturally, the Subway Manager asks you to leave. Its not that strange and i respect GW for protecting their product.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 06:45:18


Post by: Agamemnon2


Standards vary from one GW to another. At mine, one ex-staffmember had an old Armorcast Reaver, and nobody batted an eye. Headswaps, too, happen all the time and I've never heard anyone discouraged for them.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 06:46:50


Post by: LunaHound


Agamemnon2 wrote:Standards vary from one GW to another. At mine, one ex-staffmember had an old Armorcast Reaver, and nobody batted an eye. Headswaps, too, happen all the time and I've never heard anyone discouraged for them.


Wouldn't that because armor cast used to produce minis for GW just like current FW till their contract or w/e ran out? which makes armor cast reaver still a gw product.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 07:48:12


Post by: Panic


generalgrog wrote:
Orkeosaurus wrote:
It would be most like going to McDonalds, ordering a burger, and then throwing out the pickles they give you and putting pickles you brought from home on it instead, because you like them to be crunchier or something.


NO.. No... no..... completely wrong! As you can't actually see the pickles because they are hidden under the buns, ketchup, etc.

The proper description would be to go into Mcdonalds with a seedless bun that you brought from home and proceed to butcher the quarter pounder, by removing the seeded bun and replacing said seeed bun with the barbaric seedless bun.

GG


yeah...
But you've changed more than 75% of that burger for it to be tournment legal...
I think it's more like scraping off the sesame seeds and replaceing them with poppy seeds...

Panic...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 12:20:23


Post by: Sidstyler


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:One Redshirt is a knobend, and entire company is condemned on his actions!


Well, yes. That's what happens when you let knobends speak for your company, isn't it?

Can someone please explain to me how buying a box of Cadians from GW, and then buying heads from Pig Iron to put on those Cadians, is "not supporting GW"?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 12:22:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It is supporting GW, hence I said the Redshirt was being a knobend.

I appreciate that people being jerks is largely subjective, but this guy really did overstep the mark.

And the Redshirt was not speaking for the company, he was speaking for himself, wishing he was speaking for the company.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 12:58:43


Post by: Gitzbitah


When you encounter an injustice like this, fight the system!

Create a protest squad or two of guardsmen. Magnetize your third party heads. When the management says something, remove their heads.

See if they are happier about you playing with a headless army, or with third party heads.

If you do decide to take this route, take pictures!


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 13:25:08


Post by: bubber


I've heard that in UK GW tournies, models have to be at least 75% GW. Ie head & arm swaps are OK.
My local GW (Portsmouth) has no problems with me using heads from Pig Iron, West Wind or Max Mini.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 13:32:48


Post by: Frazzled


WarhammerTabletop wrote:Hi fellow dakka members I was just at my local GW talking to my friends about my new guard army im making, I was thinking of using cadians and attaching pig iron heads so I don't have a normal cadian army, a redshirt walked by me and must have overheard and said "Then your not supporting games workshop and we would have to through you out of the store." The redshirt walked of, me and my friends were pissed to here that gw doesn't allow a simple head SWAP just to give some taste to the army. Has this happened to anyone else, and is this a rule for all stores? Also shouldn't we be allowed to do what WE want with OUR money?

Sigh I see its time to again employ Frazzled Rules of advice #2.
-Get a stick
-Get a nail
-Drive the nail through the end of the stick.
Then you'll know what to do.

Seriously (ok I was serous above to) you do what you want. Its your money. Its your mini. IN GW's defense I've played in GW stores with lots of conversions and pig iron heads is a time honored tradition.

You should feel pity for redshirts, you really should. Like little children, they are so cute when they try to act adult and use the BIG WORDS.

A better idea is to find a non GW store and find a larger universe.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And once again for the hard of understanding.

One Staffer being an idiot does not company policy make.

Often it does and did for him.

Warmachine is calling.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 15:17:25


Post by: BrassScorpion


Normally if the models are a high percentage of GW parts they are still allowed in GW tournaments and in GW stores. A simple head swap should not have been an issue if the other 90% of the models are built from GW parts. It appears you simply got an overzealous or uninformed employee on your back there.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 16:59:50


Post by: Kanluwen


Fraz! Back to your hole! You're doing your rabble rousing thing again!




I still don't understand why there's so many folk who seem to fail to realize:

The only way, shape, or form that the policy could be considered "official GW" is if the manager of the store enforced it. The redshirt was a jerk. We've established that. Thread over. Nothing more to see, because that is NOT OFFICIAL GW POLICY.

And as for GW being tyrannical...
Do you really think if there were Rackham or Privateer Press stores that they'd let you play proxy games on the premise using GW models?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 19:08:25


Post by: Frazzled


The redshirt literally has the badges and incidents of the store and can enforce store policy. Its pretty official if the redshirt threw him out of the store no?

Again, I've played in both GW stores and nonGW stores and this has not been an issue. Now I am an older player, and a lot of the nonsene people report (painted minis etc.) doesn't occur to me or my poeple. Are you really going to tell someone old enough to an Old One that he has to have fully flocked minis to play in the store?

"You need to have GW minis to play here."
"Thats an RT era dreadnought."
"oh"
"Its older than you are."
"er"
"Since you have transgressed I will now bore you with OLD PERSON STORY, so that you will not make this mistake again."
(torturous tale commences)






GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 19:09:09


Post by: Kanluwen


Eh.

Then you got thrown out of a terribly run shop. What's the downside there?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 19:13:23


Post by: Frazzled


Kanluwen makes an excellent point there.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 19:18:19


Post by: Ozymandias


Wow, sounds like a stupid redshirt more than anything. I'd say as long as you don't go around with a megaphone saying your IG have Pig Iron heads and that those heads are far superior to GW heads you'll be fine. If anyone asks, just say that they are conversions and leave it at that.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 19:34:19


Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin


Frazzled wrote:
"You need to have GW minis to play here."
"Thats an RT era dreadnought."
"oh"
"Its older than you are."
"er"
"Since you have transgressed I will now bore you with OLD PERSON STORY, so that you will not make this mistake again."
(torturous tale commences)


Haha.. breathe man.. breathe.



on topic.. Its a shame folks do the old ego trip thing on occasion, worked with some complete twonks in my time, just tend to get on with it and ignore em.

As to the actual models, odd, I seem to remember using the odd Grenadier model in GW stores in the past, maybe they've come down harder on that now, or maybe they just failed to notice?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 19:58:39


Post by: Kyley


New metaphor, you buy a big mac meal and toss the chips into a burger king chip-holding thing...or pour the coke from the macdonalds cup into the BK cup


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 20:04:26


Post by: Ozymandias


Would this be like carrying your GW army in a Sabol or Battlefoam case? If any GW employee tried to tell me what I can and can't do with my purchased minis I'd laugh in his face, then ask to speak with his manager.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 20:11:00


Post by: Shaman


Op

Get all the cadian heads from your whole army.. and discreetly place them in said knobends house. in his cereal in his bed, in his car and in his shoes.

Then laugh manicially.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 23:37:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Ozymandias wrote:Would this be like carrying your GW army in a Sabol or Battlefoam case? If any GW employee tried to tell me what I can and can't do with my purchased minis I'd laugh in his face, then ask to speak with his manager.


Seven years ago, my Christmas Present from GW was a Sabol Carry Case with an Aquila on it.....


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/12 23:50:58


Post by: JD21290


AFAIK a model has to be 75% GW product to be used as such.
A head swap is possible 15%, not even that, so i dont see why there was a problem.

Ive had problems with them not letting me use sculpted models in the past. (which, funnily enough were made from GW's own GS lol)


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 00:01:21


Post by: Che-Vito


Valhallan42nd wrote:It sounds like the redshirt in question is over-zealous, and is pulling policy out of thin air. Either that, or is misunderstanding policy.

I've played at RTT's at GW stores with cadians with pigiron heads, and pointed the heads out to staff, who've liked it. Talk to the Manager of said store, and see what he says.

I've heard it expressed as ratio of parts, some say 90%, some say 51%. But I don't think they are any firm "in a memo" guidelines.


This. I have heard certain ratios, lower than 90%. Get a ratio from the Redshirt in question, if it's 91% or less then you are good.

In EMS, for burn patients, we use the "rule of 9's", counting the head as 9% of the body area. Enough said.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 00:12:48


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:THIS NEWS JUST IN!

One Redshirt is a knobend, and entire company is condemned on his actions!


Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Grotsnik here, and his rose-tinted glasses.

One GW employee being a tool doesn't mean they're all like that.


Only most of them are like that. :p


Ozymandias wrote:Would this be like carrying your GW army in a Sabol or Battlefoam case? If any GW employee tried to tell me what I can and can't do with my purchased minis I'd laugh in his face, then ask to speak with his manager.


Maybe it's just me, but I kinda want that to happen if only so we can all bitch about it for a few days.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 00:18:08


Post by: BeefyG


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And once again for the hard of understanding.

One Staffer being an idiot does not company policy make.


No given the current state of affairs I'm pretty sure its the company policy, and its a top down approach.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 00:18:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Hold on, wait, stop.

Who are the three people who voted "Not supporting GW". C'mon - who are you?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 00:36:24


Post by: RiTides


The poll is 110-3... a pretty overwhelming majority .

Like everyone said already, GW policy allows conversions as long as the model is largely GW parts. Since you wouldn't be not buying anything from GW because of this (you'd have to buy the cadians with heads, then add these) it should be totally cool for tournaments and everything.

I think in a store, the guys there have to try to sell products. I was talking about selling my army and using the funds to buy another, but from bartertown... and of course they wanted me to buy it from there . But they let me take pictures of my stuff for ebay on one of the store tables and everything, so they were very cool about it... just obviously in favor of buying my new stuff in the store


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 00:43:26


Post by: Ozymandias


H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:Would this be like carrying your GW army in a Sabol or Battlefoam case? If any GW employee tried to tell me what I can and can't do with my purchased minis I'd laugh in his face, then ask to speak with his manager.


Maybe it's just me, but I kinda want that to happen if only so we can all bitch about it for a few days.


Oh we totally would too. Maybe we could just repost this thread and be done with it.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 00:45:49


Post by: Bignutter


Frazzled wrote:

You should feel pity for redshirts, you really should. Like little children, they are so cute when they try to act adult and use the BIG WORDS.




Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about-
Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 01:03:45


Post by: Valhallan42nd


Bignutter wrote:
Frazzled wrote:You should feel pity for redshirts, you really should. Like little children, they are so cute when they try to act adult and use the BIG WORDS.

Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about-
Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


As a former redshirt myself, I don't quite like the tone either. But I'm sure that Dakka's resident grumpy old man was just joking with us...

It would be like be calling most of my former customers pig-headed mouth breathers who don't know how to bathe or approach ladies socially awkward. Totally not entirely accurate.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 02:14:56


Post by: Armandloft


Just to look at this from another direction: I have a friend that plays Valhallans. Every model but one in his army (of quite a considerable amount of models) are GW. He fields the Sorcha model from Warmachine as a platoon commander. As I've never played in a GW store/event, would they allow that?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 02:23:00


Post by: Howlingmoon


Bignutter wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

You should feel pity for redshirts, you really should. Like little children, they are so cute when they try to act adult and use the BIG WORDS.




Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about-
Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


funnily enough I was thinking the same thing.

maybe it's a "loose guideline".

Or possibly a "for you lesser people only" thing.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 02:29:19


Post by: Mouse


A roolz troll (GW staff) told me just yesterday you can use other model bitz as long as 70% of the model is a GW model. As a matter of fact, he looked up and referred me to another company's website to look for backpack bitz.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 05:16:25


Post by: bleumike


Hey I know this has nothing to do with modeling. But I remember back when I was 16 I had a Nike hat. I put some cartoon stickers on my hat and when I was shopping at the mall a Nike rep. saw my hat. He said I couldn't wear the hat cause of the sitckers. I told him that it was my hat I had paid for it there for I could do what I wanted with it.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 05:34:00


Post by: malfred


Frazzled wrote:

Again, I've played in both GW stores and nonGW stores and this has not been an issue. Now I am OLD, and a lot of the nonsene people report (painted minis etc.) doesn't occur to me or my poeple. Are you really going to tell someone old enough to an Old One that he has to have fully flocked minis to play in the store?




fixed your typo, there, Frazz


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 06:22:10


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Bignutter wrote:Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about


One of them being Grotsnik, so Fraz's comment stands.

Bignutter wrote:Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


But GW employees aren't people. They're drones. How can you hurt a drone's feeling? They don't have any.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 07:04:56


Post by: Valhallan42nd


H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bignutter wrote:Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about


One of them being Grotsnik, so Fraz's comment stands.

Bignutter wrote:Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


But GW employees aren't people. They're drones. How can you hurt a drone's feeling? They don't have any.


Oh, we have feelings.

In fact, I'm writing a scathing bit of verse about you in my very grimdark emo poetry blog right now. Do you have any words that might describe you, something rhyming with "canker"?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 07:52:41


Post by: Mastiff


"...and when she stops laughing I thank 'er..."


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 08:12:15


Post by: NecronLord3


I think if a GW store did this to me I'd have to sit outside the store(in the Public area of the Mall) and point out the great deals you can get for all your GW needs on EBAY!


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 08:20:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Valhallan42nd wrote:In fact, I'm writing a scathing bit of verse about you in my very grimdark emo poetry blog right now. Do you have any words that might describe you, something rhyming with "canker"?


"Magnificent Bastard".

Rhymes very well.



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 10:24:18


Post by: Bignutter


H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bignutter wrote:Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about


One of them being Grotsnik, so Fraz's comment stands.

Bignutter wrote:Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


But GW employees aren't people. They're drones. How can you hurt a drone's feeling? They don't have any.


So your basically saying that rule number 1 on the forums doesn't count because you don't see GW staff as people?

Thats just messed up


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 10:30:39


Post by: chromedog


Perhaps they dislike headswaps because that would show the rest of the world how they make GW employees.

Cut off head, empty it out, and replace - but you don't have to worry about whose body it is on, as they are all now the equal of GW's BoD.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 11:10:50


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


Bignutter wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bignutter wrote:Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about


One of them being Grotsnik, so Fraz's comment stands.

Bignutter wrote:Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


But GW employees aren't people. They're drones. How can you hurt a drone's feeling? They don't have any.


So your basically saying that rule number 1 on the forums doesn't count because you don't see GW staff as people?

Thats just messed up


Another example of GW's indoctrination mind surgeries appears to be extraction of the capacity to process sarcasm...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 11:44:20


Post by: H.B.M.C.


No kidding...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 11:52:35


Post by: Bignutter


It didn't come across as sarcasm- and with some of the things that have been said before really implies that some people have a problem with GW staff


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 12:17:29


Post by: Frazzled


Bignutter wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

You should feel pity for redshirts, you really should. Like little children, they are so cute when they try to act adult and use the BIG WORDS.




Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about-
Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?

Well to me you're all little kids. to me Moses was a little kid. I'm not being specific, I'm just old.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


It would be like be calling most of my former customers pig-headed mouth breathers who don't know how to bathe or approach ladies socially awkward. Totally not entirely accurate.


Wait thats not accurate?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valhallan42nd wrote:

Oh, we have feelings.




GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 12:35:29


Post by: Hawkins


On another line close to this, does anyone know what the stance is on GW if you make your own heads from greenstuff? or other materials? Ive heard if it looks similar to say something pig iron makes they get uptight as well.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 13:10:22


Post by: Frazzled


What other materials?
Hawkins' heads are made of people!


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 13:25:07


Post by: Matt Varnish


back to the topic at hand, I think the dumbest thing to do is to go into a GW store and talk about this sort of thing. When I was manager of a GW store, we had guys come in and talk about resin casting a bunch of things, so I had to give them the ole company line on that kind of thing, where if they had kept their traps shut, no one woulda been the wiser.



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 16:41:00


Post by: Mouse


Matt Varnish wrote:When I was manager of a GW store, we had guys come in and talk about resin casting a bunch of things, so I had to give them the ole company line on that kind of thing, where if they had kept their traps shut, no one woulda been the wiser.


WOW! You would censor people's conversations in your store. I could certainly understand telling people to keep "their traps shut" if the topic was something hotly political or just plain offensive, but seriously resin casting?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 17:04:13


Post by: carmachu


Matt Varnish wrote:back to the topic at hand, I think the dumbest thing to do is to go into a GW store and talk about this sort of thing. When I was manager of a GW store, we had guys come in and talk about resin casting a bunch of things, so I had to give them the ole company line on that kind of thing, where if they had kept their traps shut, no one woulda been the wiser.



If your talking about recasting GW or other minis, yeah thats wrong. If your talking about them sculpting their own pieces and casting them for personal use....yeah your wrong. Even GW has had articles on press molds.....


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 17:04:33


Post by: Platuan4th


Mouse wrote:
Matt Varnish wrote:When I was manager of a GW store, we had guys come in and talk about resin casting a bunch of things, so I had to give them the ole company line on that kind of thing, where if they had kept their traps shut, no one woulda been the wiser.


WOW! You would censor people's conversations in your store. I could certainly understand telling people to keep "their traps shut" if the topic was something hotly political or just plain offensive, but seriously resin casting?


I think he's referring to Resin Copying and not casting your own customs.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 17:17:21


Post by: Cane


Yea I've got no problem with a GW manager telling their customers to shuddup about recasting GW mini's or even telling them to get out. It'd be like talking about illegally downloading games at a video game store or Blockbuster, just a bad move.

Bignutter wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bignutter wrote:Erm... bit harsh that isn't it? Especially since we know there are staffers or ex staffers about


One of them being Grotsnik, so Fraz's comment stands.

Bignutter wrote:Though one of the dakka rules was to, you know be nice to eachother?


But GW employees aren't people. They're drones. How can you hurt a drone's feeling? They don't have any.


So your basically saying that rule number 1 on the forums doesn't count because you don't see GW staff as people?

Thats just messed up


Agreed. Also hypocritical that the users that behave that way get their panties in a bunch when its turned on them.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 18:29:34


Post by: NAVARRO


Hawkins wrote:On another line close to this, does anyone know what the stance is on GW if you make your own heads from greenstuff? .


Dont do it... they will take you to the room in the back and tie you to a chair and use a nut cracker on your fingers... so that you never can sculpt again... Believe me I know these things because in my country we have lots and lots GW stores... so many I never seen one

Its simple... their rules, their stores... Only goes there who wants to. If your ok with anyone imposing their business oriented verborreia on your miniatures and in your hobby then you should follow all their nonsense... But believe me theres a world outhere outside GW and its soooooo much rewarding.
A place that stimulates your creativity above all, because for you its not a MONEY question to swap heads on your army, its a creative choice to customize your army more according to your personal tastes and sensivity... and there my friend is were you find true satisfaction IMO.
Limited to GW bits? lololol yeah right... My armies are 80% sculpted because i only found acceptable 20% of GW stuff, probably not according to GW propaganda agenda... yet I dont give a rats ass.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 19:17:09


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Cane wrote:Agreed. Also hypocritical that the users that behave that way get their panties in a bunch when its turned on them.


What part of MeanGreenStompas post did you fail at reading?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 19:31:41


Post by: CT GAMER


WarhammerTabletop wrote:Hi fellow dakka members I was just at my local GW talking to my friends about my new guard army im making, I was thinking of using cadians and attaching pig iron heads so I don't have a normal cadian army, a redshirt walked by me and must have overheard and said "Then your not supporting games workshop and we would have to through you out of the store." The redshirt walked of, me and my friends were pissed to here that gw doesn't allow a simple head SWAP just to give some taste to the army. Has this happened to anyone else, and is this a rule for all stores? Also shouldn't we be allowed to do what WE want with OUR money?


And this is when I tell him he is a jackass and never return to the store again.

You bought Cadians right? An Armie's worth since you stated your using Cadian models minus the heads? You got the GW heads that came with them right? You simply didnt attach the heads to the models. GW already charged you and received money for the Cadian heads when you bought the GW models. Thus if the guy wasn't slowed he would know this

Tell the guy to move out of his mom's basement and get a real job because he sucks at his current one...






GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 19:59:12


Post by: Kanluwen


Jesus Christ. Do people just chime in on the OP without reading the rest of the thread?

A redshirt does not have the power or authority to write GW policy. This has been established, multiple times by Mad Dok. It's also been established that the redshirt in question is a tool.

OFFICIAL GW POLICY is(apparently) 70% of a model must be GW in a conversion case. Which means headswaps are fine, so long as you're not going around telling everyone you meet/game with at the store "Forget the normal Cadian heads! Buy heads from THIS company!". Especially considering that Forge World makes Cadian conversion kits, which Pig Iron "takes business away from".

Now, think about that for a second.
It's not a case of "YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN OUR STORE!". It's a case of fething common sense. Use it and let this thread die like it should have the first day.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:07:06


Post by: Valhallan42nd


H.B.M.C. wrote:
Valhallan42nd wrote:In fact, I'm writing a scathing bit of verse about you in my very grimdark emo poetry blog right now. Do you have any words that might describe you, something rhyming with "canker"?


"Magnificent Bastard".

Rhymes very well.



You kill Nhaatzees?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:12:17


Post by: Lord Maleval


Approach it from a slightly different view for one second.

Imagine now, if you will, OP was told he couldn't field his army in the store after a conversation stating he had painted them with another company's paint line. After all, GW has their own paint line, and all the articles about painting them use their product.

Being told what you can and cannot do with your persoanl property is draconian. It'd be similar to being told by your car dealership they won't do any warranty work since you put an aftermarket grill or tailights on your vehicle.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:16:18


Post by: NAVARRO


Kanluwen wrote: It's a case of fething common sense.


GW policy the oposite of common sense.

For people is a HOBBIE not a BUSINESS and only a tool woud let his own hobby be controled by anyone elses agenda.

70% 80% 50% WTF? I buy 1 mini from GW they should kiss the floor I walk... and not "I should buy things I dont want in order to be allowed" in a freaking hobby store.
Sure its their store, they can do what they want, just dont call it common sense.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:16:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Oh FFS.

IT WAS ONE STAFFER BEING A KNOBEND.

And no, it's not Draconian in the least. A Shop, any Shop, is Private Property. When on Private Property, you obey any rules laid down by the owner/occupier. Game Stores are no different.

And actually, modifying Cars etc can be reason for them to void the warranty.

Now, put down the pitchforks, take a deep breath, and repeat the following mantra...

'One knob does not make policy'


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:26:19


Post by: fullheadofhair


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Oh FFS.

IT WAS ONE STAFFER BEING A KNOBEND.

And no, it's not Draconian in the least. A Shop, any Shop, is Private Property. When on Private Property, you obey any rules laid down by the owner/occupier. Game Stores are no different.

And actually, modifying Cars etc can be reason for them to void the warranty.

Now, put down the pitchforks, take a deep breath, and repeat the following mantra...

'One knob does not make policy'


I like to think it does in my household (when I am allowed to make a decision providing wife and cats aren't home).

Seriously - 4 pages on this! MDG is right - in all the years I have been in GW stores in several different countries there has been an issue with this. One power tripping redshirt being a dick doesn't mean the rest are dicks. What is so difficult to understand? People are being weird lately.



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:30:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Just the same old Interwebs. People looking for a storm in a teacup, a molehill to make into a mountain etc.

Oh, and of course Websites where they can get away with being over-opinionated, under-informed arseholes to their fellow posters.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:36:05


Post by: Kanluwen


Lord Maleval wrote:Approach it from a slightly different view for one second.

Imagine now, if you will, OP was told he couldn't field his army in the store after a conversation stating he had painted them with another company's paint line. After all, GW has their own paint line, and all the articles about painting them use their product.

Being told what you can and cannot do with your personal property is draconian. It'd be similar to being told by your car dealership they won't do any warranty work since you put an aftermarket grill or tailights on your vehicle.


They won't tell you that you are unable to field your army having used other paints. GW's stated time and time again, they use their paints in the articles due to wanting to drum up their own business, and the fact that it aids in making them a "one stop shop" for newbies. Someone who just broke into the hobby via Games Workshop might not know how to use weathering powders, or how best to thin out Vallejo paints, etc. They also might not know what colors match what in the Vallejo->Games Workshop conversions.

But making something as simple as "Here's the paints we make, used to create THIS effect. You can pick it up at your local store, and here's the colors to highlight/shade it. Enjoy" ensures a better business model, at least the way that GW is set up, having their own stores alongside of FLGSes, etc.

Oh, by the way:
Aftermarket grilles/taillights, if not professionally installed by your car dealership or installed poorly, can void the warranty. Read the warranty before doing any work. Again: common sense.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:36:45


Post by: NAVARRO


Actually I ignored the sad red shirt moment and was refering to another thing...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:38:39


Post by: augustus5


Redbeard wrote:You are allowed to do what you want with your money. You are allowed to buy whatever you want. You are allowed to build it however you want. You are allowed to glue on bitz from other companies.

The problem stems from your expectation that you be allowed to do whatever you want on someone else's property. GW Stores are not publically owned spaces, they're owned (or leased) by GW. GW makes them available to people who want to play with GW products as a way to promote their products.

Expecting to be able to play with someone else's models in a GW store is like expecting to buy a burger at Burger King and eat it in a McDonalds. .

You're entitled to do whatever you want with your own stuff. It's when you want to use someone else's stuff, in this case, their tables, that you have to follow their rules.

In this case, I don't think they're being unreasonable. If you want to make your models with alternate heads (a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do, BTW) you just have to accept that you might not be able to play them in GW's store. Just as you wouldn't be able to play Warmachine, or M:TG in a GW store.


Redbeard you seriously think that it is reasonable for GW to say not to use models with a head swap in thier stores? That s insane to me. GW isn't missing out on any money here. You are still buying their overpriced cadian kits. You just also happen to be buying other bits to add to them.

Frankly I just don't see a GW employee carrying out such a threat. I've heard some pretty weird stuff about GW stores on this site but when we had one in St. Louis they were pretty laid back. It's stories like this that have been reallymaking me reconsider playing a game that I love. I have a problem supporting a company that seems so hostile to their own customers.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:41:54


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


And your experience is the experience of the majority. Simple as.

Most reports of 'jerk' behaviour online, utterly fail to mention any other side of the argument, like perhaps the person complaining had been rude to customers and staff, and so a small excuse was seized upon to eject them from the store.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 20:42:12


Post by: Kanluwen


NAVARRO wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: It's a case of fething common sense.


GW policy the oposite of common sense.

For people is a HOBBIE not a BUSINESS and only a tool woud let his own hobby be controled by anyone elses agenda.

70% 80% 50% WTF? I buy 1 mini from GW they should kiss the floor I walk... and not "I should buy things I dont want in order to be allowed" in a freaking hobby store.
Sure its their store, they can do what they want, just dont call it common sense.


Except that it IS common sense. Look at any dining establishment. They disallow outside food for the same reason GW disallows competitor's miniatures in their official tournaments and their official stores.
But hey, I guess Wildflour and Buffalo's near me are draconian fascists for not letting me sit down and eat something from Subway inside!

But, FLGSes don't have the same requirements for conversions, etc. However, when they run an "official" GW tournament, with a GW sponsor and photo submissions, etc...they have to adhere to those requirements.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 21:14:44


Post by: Kilkrazy


Two reasons why it may not be in GW's interests to allow conversions with alternative heads.

1. Money spent on spare heads isn't being spent on more GW models.
2. The use of cool alternatives to GW models gives an obviously bad example to other players. The next thing you know it's all Zulus instead of Kroot and Gundams instead of Crisis Suits.

The counter-argument is that as long as people spend some of their money on GW stuff, the longer users stay in wargaming and the keener they are, it doesn't matter if they buy some competitors' stuff because they will keep on buying GW stuff too. Under this doctrine GW should ignore minor examples of alternatives providing they keep users playing and spending and focussed on GW products.

This is the "make the pie higher" argument.

Anyway I don't know whether GW have any official policy on the above points.

The key thing to remember is that the GW shop isn't your club full of your friends wanting for you all to have a nice time playing wargames. It's a business trying to get your money, and it only has GW goods to sell.

The staff behave according to a mixture of what Head Office tells them to do, what the local manager tells them to do, and what they individually think they should do.

Sometimes the guy at the sharp end is a knob.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 21:33:36


Post by: KingCracker


Im sorry but thats just ridiculous. You supported GW buy buying your Cadians. You THEN spent more money to buy heads for said Cadians.
Now if you bought a totally different game makers minis, and wanted to play in GW Id completely agree with the redshirt, but theres now way thats right/fair to say you cant simply because of the heads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It is supporting GW, hence I said the Redshirt was being a knobend.

I appreciate that people being jerks is largely subjective, but this guy really did overstep the mark.

And the Redshirt was not speaking for the company, he was speaking for himself, wishing he was speaking for the company.



Although I totally agree with you on what youve said so far, I disagree that he wasnt speaking for GW. He was there working for GW and waering the GW shirts. He was a representative FOR GW. There for, he was speaking for GW at that moment. Was he right? Hell no, but anyone that heard that will associate that with GW. Just pointing that out


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/13 23:57:12


Post by: NAVARRO


Kanluwen wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: It's a case of fething common sense.


GW policy the oposite of common sense.

For people is a HOBBIE not a BUSINESS and only a tool woud let his own hobby be controled by anyone elses agenda.

70% 80% 50% WTF? I buy 1 mini from GW they should kiss the floor I walk... and not "I should buy things I dont want in order to be allowed" in a freaking hobby store.
Sure its their store, they can do what they want, just dont call it common sense.


Except that it IS common sense. Look at any dining establishment. They disallow outside food for the same reason GW disallows competitor's miniatures in their official tournaments and their official stores.
But hey, I guess Wildflour and Buffalo's near me are draconian fascists for not letting me sit down and eat something from Subway inside!

But, FLGSes don't have the same requirements for conversions, etc. However, when they run an "official" GW tournament, with a GW sponsor and photo submissions, etc...they have to adhere to those requirements.


Completely unrelated activities/business one of them is not a hobby but a necessity etc...

As a hobby involving creativity its ridiculous to impose barriers on someone just because you want narrow people choices towards only your product... Lets make something clear I do not hold against them doing what they want on their stores, ok?!

What I find not common sense is the company policy of antagonizing fans just because they dont have 70% or other silly percentage of GW models... dont they sell GS? modeling tools, paints, hobby tools to push your creativity are they not a hobby orientated company? They provide more than miniatures...
If I paint a rackham miniature with GW paints its GW making money with my hobby... If I paint a army with their paints, flock them with GW flock, use GW bases, buy a GW codex to play the game etc etc... Why cant I use other models? Im I less of a customer?
To me it doesnt make sense in any way a company that sells modeling orientated materials telling you that you can only use X percentage of it.

What would make sense to me was if they accepted all kinds of miniatures instore...sold GS and tools to people convert things the way they liked it and play with the minis they liked... By accepting things like they are IRL they not only sell more but also would be more less restritive and castrating towards the people that buys on their stores...
And now comes the argument... hey if a guy doesnt buy anything GW and pops up? Well there are always going to be people like that but the solution is not to label everyone like those poor sports and start witch hunt on miniatures of other companies.
I tell you this a heavy converter spends MUCH more money in store than a guy that only buys and plays... Why the need for GW to tell these converters they should not convert this and that in order to be accepted?

What i do know is that if GW went the route of acepting things they would catter also to the long term Hobbyman... wich we know its not their target.



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 00:37:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Oh FFS.

IT WAS ONE STAFFER BEING A KNOBEND.

...

'One knob does not make policy'


Exactly.



C'mon folks - if Grotsnik and myself are seeing eye-to-eye on a subject, then maybe, just maybe, there's a good reason for that.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 00:40:55


Post by: fullheadofhair


H.B.M.C. wrote:


C'mon folks - if Grotsnik and myself are seeing eye-to-eye on a subject, then maybe, just maybe, there's a good reason for that.


You're both clinically insane and off your meds?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 00:43:33


Post by: shrew


I did not read every post on this thread but, I can give an example close to what the OP had experienced. At the time I was pretty new to the hobbie & saw a LGS was having a painting contest. I was disqualified when it was found out that I didn't use GW paints. To be a sore winner or loser depending how you look at it, I was still pi$$ed off. It was only a 4th or 5th place. I also had other problems (I didn't fit in the clique of the regulars) with that place in the past, so I was glad a few years later it went out of buisness.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 00:50:05


Post by: LunaHound


Kilkrazy wrote:Two reasons why it may not be in GW's interests to allow conversions with alternative heads.

1. Money spent on spare heads isn't being spent on more GW models.
2. The use of cool alternatives to GW models gives an obviously bad example to other players. The next thing you know it's all Zulus instead of Kroot and Gundams instead of Crisis Suits.

The counter-argument is that as long as people spend some of their money on GW stuff, the longer users stay in wargaming and the keener they are, it doesn't matter if they buy some competitors' stuff because they will keep on buying GW stuff too. Under this doctrine GW should ignore minor examples of alternatives providing they keep users playing and spending and focussed on GW products.

This is the "make the pie higher" argument.

Anyway I don't know whether GW have any official policy on the above points.

The key thing to remember is that the GW shop isn't your club full of your friends wanting for you all to have a nice time playing wargames. It's a business trying to get your money, and it only has GW goods to sell.

The staff behave according to a mixture of what Head Office tells them to do, what the local manager tells them to do, and what they individually think they should do.

Sometimes the guy at the sharp end is a knob.


*Nod nod , KK is wise as always.

To add to the number, it isnt just "1" red shirt that said that , from my own experience there has been atleast 2 red shirts at different GW that also says similar things about not allowing .

@ Kalown , its not that we lack this "common sense" its we hate spending money from been told whats "ok to use" and later been told its NOT ok .
Then its not so simple anymore is it.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 01:08:53


Post by: Kanluwen


@Navarro.


Then boycott GW. Have fun. Because if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, West Wind, etc all had a large chain of stores that sold ONLY their product--there is no way in hell they would be selling, encouraging, or promoting anyone else's products.

@ Luna

It's common sense, in that as MDG and I have said repeatedly in this very thread:
They are not telling you that you CANNOT use them, period.
They are telling you that you CANNOT use them in their store. And that's not even their POLICY.

But hey, let's not let logic and common sense get into this. Burn GW down! Their tyrannical fascism has to come to an end!

Rabble rabble rabble rabble!


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 01:32:43


Post by: LunaHound


Kanluwen wrote:@Navarro.


Then boycott GW. Have fun. Because if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, West Wind, etc all had a large chain of stores that sold ONLY their product--there is no way in hell they would be selling, encouraging, or promoting anyone else's products.

@ Luna

It's common sense, in that as MDG and I have said repeatedly in this very thread:
They are not telling you that you CANNOT use them, period.
They are telling you that you CANNOT use them in their store. And that's not even their POLICY.

But hey, let's not let logic and common sense get into this. Burn GW down! Their tyrannical fascism has to come to an end!

Rabble rabble rabble rabble!


Which part of my problem is hearing different policy from different redshirt do you not understand?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 01:38:43


Post by: NAVARRO


Kanluwen wrote:@Navarro.


Then boycott GW. Have fun. Because if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, West Wind, etc all had a large chain of stores that sold ONLY their product--there is no way in hell they would be selling, encouraging, or promoting anyone else's products.



Having fun on Boycotting GW? What the hell that has to do with anything that I have been talking?
I would follow GW policies if I didnt know better and I would boycott GW if I let them interfere with my hobby... both are equally extreme and both dont lead to anywere IMO... yet some people continue to think that the wise choices lies in extremes.
If I like something I buy it... if its from GW or others its irrelevant to me, Im not taking miniatures companies to my modelling table just their miniatures.

Because if reaper yadadada had chain of stores, you and no one, would know how hey would behave...
You speak of logic but weres the logic in these silly argumentations mate? you didnt even adressed my points mehhhhh or are you even trying to make any point besides... "your haters"?

Sorry to disapoint but Im neither a hater or blind lover... to darn old for both and I learned to make up my mind for myself long time ago



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 01:58:00


Post by: Kanluwen


It's fascinating that this thread continues with the same garbage repeated over and over.

"It's big and bad GW ruining the modeling/gaming experience!!!!!!!!!!"

1) The OP was given bad information from what amounts to a registerjockey. Rather than talking to the manager for clarification, he came on here making a pity party/rabble rousing thread about being bullied by The Man.
2)The policy that is in question here ONLY applies to GW stores and GW events(and really--only GW events with an actual GW presence or potential support), and ONLY really applies to qualifications that can be altered on a case by case basis of the event manager.

You don't go to Privateer events and expect them to let you field GW stand-ins do you?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 02:00:47


Post by: LunaHound


Kanluwen wrote:It's fascinating that this thread continues with the same garbage repeated over and over.

"It's big and bad GW ruining the modeling/gaming experience!!!!!!!!!!"

1) The OP was given bad information from what amounts to a registerjockey. Rather than talking to the manager for clarification, he came on here making a pity party/rabble rousing thread about being bullied by The Man.
2)The policy that is in question here ONLY applies to GW stores and GW events(and really--only GW events with an actual GW presence or potential support), and ONLY really applies to qualifications that can be altered on a case by case basis of the event manager.

You don't go to Privateer events and expect them to let you field GW stand-ins do you?


Instead of telling us what we think are "garbage" and constantly trying to give as statics that god knows where you pulled from " 75% GW product = ok "

How about you do something real useful and provide us some useful confirmation of whats allowed or not online, so we can show to the incompetent red shirts that tells
us other wise.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 02:01:27


Post by: KingCracker


Im laughing about people using food services as a reason why its ok. The reason you cannot bring food into a restaurant from a different restaurant or home for example, is mainly because of the food born illnesses and passing what ever is on your plate to the rest of the food at said restaurant. If they allowed someone to do that, weather the bad says McDonalds instead of Burger King is irrelevant, is a food inspector sees that, they get shut down. Plain and simple.

Tho if that wasnt the case, Im sure they still wouldnt allow it. But this is food talk, Not miniature conversion talk. I still cant see how people are agreeing with the fact thats its ok for them to say/do that. GW is STILL getting 100% of their profit for the OP buying the cadians box kit. I dont think him buying extra heads, or painting it with non GW paint or ANYTHING for that matter, should matter. They still got their money and after that it shouldnt matter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Luna, if you want to see info on Kanluwen's statistics, its actually up to YOU to disprove him. Since you keep stating that you want PROOF. You have to prove that he is wrong, not the other way around.

Ive seen many people state that in tournaments (sponsored by GW no lesS) that it IS 75% GW minis. And since most of them were tournament players, I tend to believe them


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 02:09:39


Post by: NAVARRO


Kanluwen wrote:It's fascinating that this thread continues with the same garbage repeated over and over.

"It's big and bad GW ruining the modeling/gaming experience!!!!!!!!!!"


Yes indeed you continue to spill that same garbage over and over again... Maybe like boycotts its one of those behaviours that you feel good about.

Kanluwen wrote:

1) The OP was given bad information from what amounts to a registerjockey. Rather than talking to the manager for clarification, he came on here making a pity party/rabble rousing thread about being bullied by The Man.
2)The policy that is in question here ONLY applies to GW stores and GW events(and really--only GW events with an actual GW presence or potential support), and ONLY really applies to qualifications that can be altered on a case by case basis of the event manager.

You don't go to Privateer events and expect them to let you field GW stand-ins do you?


1) Bad information? lol sure this is the first bad information we have heard here, for so many years, concerning this... its a first.
2) Not true... many flags and some non GW suported events adopt those anal policies... and some companies also... will that make your point more valid? nope its still anal policies.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 02:18:43


Post by: Kanluwen


Navarro--you just proved my point.

In regards to the first point:
It IS the first time I've heard(I can't speak for the rest of Dakka, but I'm fairly certain nobody else has been told this) about someone being told that they'll be forcibly ejected from a GW store for having one or two pieces of a model being non-GW.

In regards to the second point:
It's their choice to adopt the policies. Those same events might be getting some form of prize support from GW, which means that GW has some say in regards to the rules. If GW will also be posting photographs in White Dwarf or on their website later, again--they get a say in it.

As for other companies also adopting the policies...
It's a BUSINESS CHOICE. Why would they encourage you to use parts from outside of their range?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 02:44:14


Post by: NAVARRO


@Kanluwen
Sorry, probably my bad grasp of english language ..... errr... either that or you dont read with much attention.

What point was that you were saying that I proved? me being a hater?

1) first time for you maybe but its a recorrent story now and then about GW not acepting any kind of convos/other models and acting according to that by penalizing in any way they can... even couple minutes ago on the IP talk in news someone sayed same thing about GW bullyies... really its not something new man.

2) Independent means independent... as for being a business I know businesses who dont work that way...It goes furter... from companies developing etched kits for other companies tanks etc... and all living happy with each others.
You know, let me share a little secret with you... GW business/behaviour model is far from... perfect

Being a business doesnt give you the right to enforce/dump hard your company issues on costumers... who are not a business but rather hobby persons buying your stuff... just buying relaxed fun hobby time...



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 03:17:54


Post by: Kanluwen


I'm reading it perfectly, so don't worry.

The point that I said that you proved was that you don't see this happening with FORCIBLE evictions from the premises unless there's some kind of reason to do it.

And as for the IP thing: People are blowing that garbage out of proportion as well. They were heavy handed, but operating under the advice from their legal advisory. It might be bad advice, but they pay for the advice and it might be that they're operating to protect their investment into a third party for the Blood Bowl video game. That, however, is neither here nor there.

What IS here, however is Games Workshop is a fething business. They operate to protect their interests. Any company would. And being a business, in fact, with a privately owned premise does mean you can enforce your company policies on any customer who enters the premises.

In fact, if I were to operate a gaming club out of my house, with a specific set of rules?
I could throw you out for violating them.
A store is essentially a private residence, but with an open door policy. Respect their rules, or shut up and get out.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 04:13:34


Post by: Sidstyler


So has GW printed a graph or guide somewhere assigning percentages to each of the limbs/body parts of a model, so that we know exactly what the feth 75% is supposed to be in their eyes, or is it purposely kept vague?

"Head swaps? Nope, your model is only 60% GW now since we consider the head to count for 40% of the model!"


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 04:17:59


Post by: LunaHound


Sidstyler wrote:So has GW printed a graph or guide somewhere assigning percentages to each of the limbs/body parts of a model, so that we know exactly what the feth 75% is supposed to be in their eyes, or is it purposely kept vague?

"Head swaps? Nope, your model is only 60% GW now since we consider the head to count for 40% of the model!"


I agree , and whats the % based on? per every individual miniatures?

or

are there exceptions when used in a scenic base , a diorama , or a sceneic diorama within a regiment block ( we often see these in fantasy battles )


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 04:39:38


Post by: Sidstyler


Exactly, does the base count as part of the model? For how much?

Does Forge World count for GW parts when determining this? If I use a Forge World XV89 on a Back-to-Base-ix resin base is that legal?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 05:23:11


Post by: Kanluwen


No clue what their percentages are. I'd assume, using common sense and logic, that the head would make up 25% of any 4 part(head, limbs, chest, and legs) model.

Wait, we're not allowed to use logic. I forgot we're just here to moan about how they're RUINING OUR HOBBY!!11!!.

Also, assuming scenic bases, Forge World, and other things:
Again, I doubt they really give a flying crap what you use as the actual base. I know that my Inquisitor Rex model, which is mounted on a MicroArts Ruined Temple base has been allowed as a stand-in for Belial at a few official events I went to in NY.

So make of that what you will.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 06:22:07


Post by: StarGate


IMO once you purchase said model its no longer GW, Reaper or any other company out there. Its yours you can do what you wish and If they have a hard time sayin its not a GW model, I will straight tell them no none of my GW models are GW models there Stargates models, I bought them. Hence they stop being property of GW.

Some one showed bring that up next time they go to a grand tourament... you can only use GW models... and pose the question to them . ONce we purchase said models dont they become my models... and no longer your??


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 06:24:27


Post by: Cane


I wonder if GW really does have that whole percentage/part thing worked out - probably not. Likely just up to the individual in charge of the store or tournament.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cane wrote:Agreed. Also hypocritical that the users that behave that way get their panties in a bunch when its turned on them.


What part of MeanGreenStompas post did you fail at reading?




Bignutter wrote:It didn't come across as sarcasm- and with some of the things that have been said before really implies that some people have a problem with GW staff


Considering heated opinions on Jervis, Thorpe, et al kind of hard for one not to side with Bignutter's view

If you want to discuss it further just shoot a PM


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 06:38:41


Post by: Sidstyler


Kanluwen wrote:Wait, we're not allowed to use logic.


GW won't, why should I?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 09:26:10


Post by: Agamemnon2


Kanluwen wrote:No clue what their percentages are. I'd assume, using common sense and logic, that the head would make up 25% of any 4 part(head, limbs, chest, and legs) model.

Wait, we're not allowed to use logic. I forgot we're just here to moan about how they're RUINING OUR HOBBY!!11!!.


The GW miniatures are deformed, but not that much. The head is 15% of the total mass of the figure, tops. Someone with a really accurate scale could do some weighings and ascertain this with an appropriate precision.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 09:40:28


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


KingCracker wrote:Im sorry but thats just ridiculous. You supported GW buy buying your Cadians. You THEN spent more money to buy heads for said Cadians.
Now if you bought a totally different game makers minis, and wanted to play in GW Id completely agree with the redshirt, but theres now way thats right/fair to say you cant simply because of the heads.


Here is truth.
I fully understand GW applying the boot to someone's ass if they come in with an army of imperial guard made from green army men or Infinity models or something. But when a model is clearly a GW model and has had modifications added, then you should be fine, cosmetic additions are just that. GW has had it's sale and as part of the trade-off from that, you get to bring your imperial guard model in and play with it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264924.page#1111974
Here's a link to some (IMO) very cool looking imperial guard using pig iron heads and also nonGW backpacks and in one case a plasticard heavy bolter. Despite all the cosmetic personalisation that has occurred, fact remains that a box of imperial guard has been turned into a unit of imperial guard and I personally feel that means the guy can play them in a GW shop and should feel somewhat annoyed (even to the extent of posting on the discussion forum) if he's told to hop it out of the shop. Now with head and backpack those models are probably 35%+ not GW, but the model is, ultimately an imperial guard figure with accessories.

I think he can play those figs in a GW shop, does anyone feel that he cant and if so, why not?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 09:47:22


Post by: LunaHound


MeanGreenStompa wrote:
KingCracker wrote:Im sorry but thats just ridiculous. You supported GW buy buying your Cadians. You THEN spent more money to buy heads for said Cadians.
Now if you bought a totally different game makers minis, and wanted to play in GW Id completely agree with the redshirt, but theres now way thats right/fair to say you cant simply because of the heads.


Here is truth.
I fully understand GW applying the boot to someone's ass if they come in with an army of imperial guard made from green army men or Infinity models or something. But when a model is clearly a GW model and has had modifications added, then you should be fine, cosmetic additions are just that. GW has had it's sale and as part of the trade-off from that, you get to bring your imperial guard model in and play with it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264924.page#1111974
Here's a link to some (IMO) very cool looking imperial guard using pig iron heads and also nonGW backpacks and in one case a plasticard heavy bolter. Despite all the cosmetic personalisation that has occurred, fact remains that a box of imperial guard has been turned into a unit of imperial guard and I personally feel that means the guy can play them in a GW shop and should feel somewhat annoyed (even to the extent of posting on the discussion forum) if he's told to hop it out of the shop. Now with head and backpack those models are probably 35%+ not GW, but the model is, ultimately an imperial guard figure with accessories.

I think he can play those figs in a GW shop, does anyone feel that he cant and if so, why not?


Thats the problem MGS , kenluwen seem to misunderstand what i was trying to say.

Im not saying GW is right or wrong to enforce or not enforce none GW bits used. All im asking is something concrete , so i wont ( for example )
spend $ on buying pig iron head for 150 guardsmen when 1 red shirt says no problem! , then just to be told by random red shirt that i cant use them after i went thru all the $ or effort.

So Yes is ok , No is ok too . But something certain!


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:08:41


Post by: Hawkins


Frazzled wrote:What other materials?
Hawkins' heads are made of people!

Brown stuff, magic sculpt, self made lead heads that kinda thing.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:08:57


Post by: Kilkrazy


Agamemnon2 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:No clue what their percentages are. I'd assume, using common sense and logic, that the head would make up 25% of any 4 part(head, limbs, chest, and legs) model.

Wait, we're not allowed to use logic. I forgot we're just here to moan about how they're RUINING OUR HOBBY!!11!!.


The GW miniatures are deformed, but not that much. The head is 15% of the total mass of the figure, tops. Someone with a really accurate scale could do some weighings and ascertain this with an appropriate precision.


GW figures are badly deformed. Compare a GW figure (1/56 scale) with a historical 1/35 scale figure for an eye-opener.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:11:41


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


And this topic also raises the question of scratchbuilt models, are they ok?

Could I bring this in?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:22:19


Post by: Sidstyler


What about fully-sculpted models you did yourself? Do you have to show proof that you bought the green stuff at a GW?


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:32:57


Post by: NAVARRO


Kanluwen wrote:I'm reading it perfectly, so don't worry.


Good to know now Im less worried.

Kanluwen wrote:

The point that I said that you proved was that you don't see this happening with FORCIBLE evictions from the premises unless there's some kind of reason to do it. .


And the reasons are what we are discussing an some find it outrageous ridiculous.


Kanluwen wrote:
And as for the IP thing: People are blowing that garbage out of proportion as well. They were heavy handed, but operating under the advice from their legal advisory. It might be bad advice, but they pay for the advice and it might be that they're operating to protect their investment into a third party for the Blood Bowl video game. That, however, is neither here nor there.
.


A bit worried with your reading again I was not commenting IP issue I was giving you a example how GW bullying is several times mentioned on dakka and forwarded you there...

Kanluwen wrote:
What IS here, however is Games Workshop is a fething business. They operate to protect their interests. Any company would. And being a business, in fact, with a privately owned premise does mean you can enforce your company policies on any customer who enters the premises.

In fact, if I were to operate a gaming club out of my house, with a specific set of rules?
I could throw you out for violating them.
A store is essentially a private residence, but with an open door policy. Respect their rules, or shut up and get out.


Protecting interests is very diferent from imposing "your wars on competiton" to the clueless hobby person... whats it to me if they dislike other brands? One thing is getting kicked from a store/ tournament for not being civilized another diferent thing is being kicked because you dont embraçe the blind GW gospel propaganda... This is not a chearch or religion or partidary get together... its HOBBY for the people that go there... so lets keep it THAT way.

And again your stuck to the same small pointless argumentation " its their store their rules" wich I adressed many post above and actually agree with it... the thing is, its not what we are debating now.... We are debating "the rules" and how unapropriate they are and how they lack good judgement... or how could they be more friendly and less antagonizing.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:39:21


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


I see quotes within quotes, I see two great Houses of the Dakkasraad feuding...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:45:39


Post by: Sidstyler


Sure, their store, their rules. No one's trying to say they don't have the right to impose any bs rule they want.

All we're saying is that it's bs. I mean technically they could leave the doors locked during their hours of operation and refuse to let anyone in the store...that's their right, but it won't be very good for business, and I care to wager it would garner a few reasonable complaints.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 10:46:31


Post by: Panic


yeah,
While I voted yes.
I have to agree with the concept that using Pig Iron stuff on GW plastic cadians hurts FW sales.

At the end of the day FW is the branch of GW for officially advanced customising your stuff...

Panic...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 11:06:15


Post by: NAVARRO


Speaking of FW... ITs so weird that not even FW products are 100% legal gamewise... Anyone remembers when it was a bad practice to use LOTR bits on 40k armies?... These are the kinds of abuse you have to take...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 11:27:59


Post by: Panic


yeah,
But that was to do with the LOTR license agreement. GW had permission to use the LOTR IP, but only to be sold only as part of a LOTR game... Not as add ons for all it's sytems... I guess New Line Cinema didn't want to see frodo converted to a ratling, as that could damage the LOTR brand.


Panic...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 11:45:26


Post by: NAVARRO


Good example... would New Line Cinema mind if I use balrog wings on my hivetyrant? Would GW mind?

Would both companies policies and arrangements get between me from doing what I want with those wings? As far as I'm concerned its GW selling it on their stores, right? Much like greenstuff really, I sculpt a full army and get the boot because of some weird percentage rullings that only supports a part of their products?
The fella that buys a full balrog for the wings then a HT is taking away GW money?

See, all these silly impositions leads to only one thing, to ridicule and complications that a hobby person can live without.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 11:45:47


Post by: Kilkrazy


All of these restrictions only matter if you want to play in GW shops or in official and sponsored tournaments.



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 11:53:07


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


Kilkrazy wrote:All of these restrictions only matter if you want to play in GW shops or in official and sponsored tournaments.


Whilst in the UK we have church hall and community hall clubs around the country, I seem to have picked up from reading here that the USA folks are far more likely to play in a GW store past the age of 16.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 12:11:26


Post by: NAVARRO


Kilkrazy wrote:All of these restrictions only matter if you want to play in GW shops or in official and sponsored tournaments.



Or in some independent stores or gaming clubs & leagues that choose to adopt them... even in countries with NO GW
The question still a bit the same, would you restrict yourself from enjoying modelling/painting in its fullness just because you want to attend to the only hobby store in your town?
Its a personal choice and should not be imposed by agressive tactics.

Looking a bit deeper perhaps thats what GW really wants... fewer customers at their stores.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 12:52:06


Post by: Mr. Burning


My local GW store manager has been giving me some advice and how to convert up some cheap urban war minis I go from Arcane minis sale
looking at tech priests and servitor conversions. he may have doubts letting me field the conversions in store for competitions or tourneys but he has no problem in me bringing them 'in house'.

I feel bad now, maybe I should speak to GW head office and mention this guys name and suggest that as an employee of GW that maybe he should be trying to sell me GW products at his GW store?

Enough frivolity...

I voted that you should be able to use different models I BELIEVE that I can go into GW store and for casuals games use a certain amount of converted product in my games, the same goes for FLGS etc. I also BELIEVE that in a GW sanctioned Tourney, event or other GW sponsored mularkey that only GW branded and sold as product should be used. This applies to Rackham and PP sanctioned events as well, who wants to give exposure to the competitions IP?

Over zealous red shirts be damned! there are plenty of good GW stores with competent and educated mangers and staff but they are paid to promote GW, nothing else.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 13:01:49


Post by: reds8n


NAVARRO wrote:Speaking of FW... ITs so weird that not even FW products are 100% legal gamewise... Anyone remembers when it was a bad practice to use LOTR bits on 40k armies?... These are the kinds of abuse you have to take...



see page 4 on here.



GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 13:03:03


Post by: Hawkins


Sidstyler wrote:What about fully-sculpted models you did yourself? Do you have to show proof that you bought the green stuff at a GW?

That was also a concern. if 70% of the model has to be GW, then how can you play with say fenris wolves as there are no models yet, or a hell pit abomination? i seem to recall, self built or scratch built things like that being ok, but ive only ever been in one GW store in Munchen, and that for maybe 5 minutes.
So really, if this is ok and that not, and then the percentage of this is ok and then that not, i think its all a matter of how each store want to run in general.

My local independant store has strict rules on WYSIWYG in its tournaments, but im still able to bring my IG WarZone minis.

Either way i think most of us agree that the Red Shirt was acting stupidly, and that GW is a bit bent over its policies. But what isnt so cool is that incidents like this happen offten.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 13:22:20


Post by: NAVARRO


reds8n wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:Speaking of FW... ITs so weird that not even FW products are 100% legal gamewise... Anyone remembers when it was a bad practice to use LOTR bits on 40k armies?... These are the kinds of abuse you have to take...



see page 4 on here.



Yup still loud and clear on their rullings PDF...
As such, a model you got 100% at GW is not legal tournament wise and will be removed from table...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 13:30:32


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


Well, at least the PDF link freezing has highlighted a fault with firefox that I've been able to report...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 13:45:46


Post by: reds8n


NAVARRO wrote:
reds8n wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:Speaking of FW... ITs so weird that not even FW products are 100% legal gamewise... Anyone remembers when it was a bad practice to use LOTR bits on 40k armies?... These are the kinds of abuse you have to take...



see page 4 on here.



Yup still loud and clear on their rullings PDF...
As such, a model you got 100% at GW is not legal tournament wise and will be removed from table...


...errrr.... no. The section on page two--by the whole chariot thing-- basically says it will all be done on a case by case basis and the refs. MAY choose not to allow it. I;ve played in tournies etc at WW for over 10 years and very rarely have I seen them remove or refuse a model. Hell I've played a game there one afternoon with a guy with an entirely home sculpted squat army and all he got was compliments from the many staff who wandered by.

best way to summarise their position is : don't be a douche and you'll probably be alright.

It's almost like they want to treat people like sensible adults.. it would appear though this is too optimistic.


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 14:25:51


Post by: carmachu


Kanluwen wrote:.

You don't go to Privateer events and expect them to let you field GW stand-ins do you?


Has anyone tried? Or tried with hybrid PP/GW models? One does wonder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
reds8n wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:Speaking of FW... ITs so weird that not even FW products are 100% legal gamewise... Anyone remembers when it was a bad practice to use LOTR bits on 40k armies?... These are the kinds of abuse you have to take...



see page 4 on here.


Hmmm, that seems to imply you an, butyou wont be photographed...


GW doens't alllow head swaps? @ 2009/11/14 15:06:26


Post by: NAVARRO


reds8n wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
reds8n wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:Speaking of FW... ITs so weird that not even FW products are 100% legal gamewise... Anyone remembers when it was a bad practice to use LOTR bits on 40k armies?... These are the kinds of abuse you have to take...



see page 4 on here.



Yup still loud and clear on their rullings PDF...
As such, a model you got 100% at GW is not legal tournament wise and will be removed from table...


...errrr.... no. The section on page two--by the whole chariot thing-- basically says it will all be done on a case by case basis and the refs. MAY choose not to allow it. I;ve played in tournies etc at WW for over 10 years and very rarely have I seen them remove or refuse a model. Hell I've played a game there one afternoon with a guy with an entirely home sculpted squat army and all he got was compliments from the many staff who wandered by.

best way to summarise their position is : don't be a douche and you'll probably be alright.

It's almost like they want to treat people like sensible adults.. it would appear though this is too optimistic.


Only read the lotr part
But yes I think the best route for them is to really take things light, and your experience seems to be more according to what.
Even if its in rules there should be some room for flexibility and better judgement of each situation... if thats the case on most GW stores then its ok.
There are always going to be people who will take things to the letter though, lets just hope they are keept as a minority and are not managers.

My armies after painted could be hard to see if its sculpted or just other company bits and they have a big chance of being "not acceptable" yet its a risk I have the biggest pleasure to cross.
One thing is for sure when a store puts the percentage above 20% I know I'm not welcome and I'm not going to be there