does rolling 3 ones force a perils of the warp on a model taking a psychic test when its forced to roll 3 dice due to "runes of Warding " ?

the runes rule is as follows : Runes of warding: ...suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

so does the test fail only above 12 ?

However the BRB does mention a PotW on double ones. However i see nothing about rolling 3 dice.


My opinion is it doesnt cause a perils on 3 ones.

zedsdead wrote:does rolling 3 ones force a perils of the warp on a model taking a psychic test when its forced to roll 3 dice due to "runes of Warding " ?

the runes rule is as follows : Runes of warding: ...suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

so does the test fail only above 12 ?

However the BRB does mention a PotW on double ones. However i see nothing about rolling 3 dice.


My opinion is it doesnt cause a perils on 3 ones.

It does. You have rolled a Double one and a One. So it triggers PotW. The note about Rolling above 12 is to remind you because 12 is normally only able to happen on a Double 6, so RoW say if you roll 12 or more it also triggers a potw, which rolling a 6,6,x would trigger anyway, as you rolled a double 6, the same way as rolling 1,1,x is rolling a double 1 and x

the rules do not conflict as Gwar pointed out. So you must apply both.

PotW occur when you roll or
RoWa cause a PotW if you roll a 12 or higher (note that it could be due to but there are plenty of combinations on the dice to cause a 12+)

Altimera wrote:RoWa cause a PotW if you roll a 12 or higher (note that it could be due to but there are plenty of combinations on the dice to cause a 12+)

Yes, very true. Had a bit of a brainfart there

A Roll of 6,6,x will cause a PotW as per the BRB, however, any roll of 12 or more (for example, a 1,5,6 / a 4,4,4 or a 5,5,4) will trigger a PotW because of the RoW.

Oh yes Its very nice to see all the psykers kill themselves on the other side of the table

Imo one of the best upgrades for the Farseer

yeah,
It says double 1...
If you roll three dice you can never roll a double.
If I rolled three dice and got 3, 5, 3.
I wouldn't say I got double 3 and a 5... you'd just add them up and call it 11.

RAW = Peril of the Warp does not activate...

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
It says double 1...
If you roll three dice you can never roll a double.
If I rolled three dice and got 3, 5, 3.
I wouldn't say I got double 3 and a 5... you'd just add them up and call it 11.

RAW = Peril of the Warp does not activate...

Panic...

Just because you wouldn't say it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I wouldn't say a Unicorn is made of iridium, but they might be for all I know.

A 3,3,5 is a double 3 and a 5. A 1,1,1 is a Double 1 and a 1.

RaW it does. Please refrain from posting incorrect information and proclaiming it "RaW". All you do is cause arguments and confuse newbies.

yeah,
How's about you getting off your high horse and stop telling me what I can and can not post on dakka.

IMO - 1, 1, 1, is 3 .... not a double 1 and a 1
IMO RAW perils of the Warp doesn't activate.

Panic...

If you have 3 "1"s you have both a triple 1 and a double 1 / single 1

same as when you rolla double 1 you have two single 1s as well.

You "IMO" is not correct, and is not RAW - you are however welcome to believe it correct.

Panic wrote:yeah,
How's about you getting off your high horse and stop telling me what I can and can not post on dakka

Post whatever you like. I don't care what you do. I am just trying to be helpful and not confuse newbies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you have 3 "1"s you have both a triple 1 and a double 1 / single 1

same as when you rolla double 1 you have two single 1s as well.

You "IMO" is not correct, and is not RAW - you are however welcome to believe it correct.

nosferatu1001 is 100% Correct

yeah,
The RAI is for the epic fail when spell casting. the 1/36 chance of rolling double 1.
And I'd agree that Via RAI when third dice is added the epic fail is now 1, 1, 1 and has 1/216 chance of activating Perils of the Warp.

It also looks for the Epic overpower from the warp... 1/36 of getting double 6.

But your saying that via RAW... that 1,1,6 triggers Perils of the Warp?
I'd call that a 8 !? that's hardly a epic fail?
And I don't think anyone would try to say that the 8 is made up of a double 1 and a 6 and triggers a perils of the warp test?

RAW clearly says you need to roll a double 1 or double 6 to suffer a perils of the warp attack.
regardless of how you get your third die>
You can't roll a double if you roll three dice. some combinations will have matching dice but they are not doubles.
You can however roll a triple. 3,3,3... or 1, 1, 1
RAW doesn't say anything happens when a tripple is rolled, so no perils of the warp for a 1, 1, 1.

Panic...

It works the same way as miscasts in WHFB: any double 1 counts as a double, regarldess of how many dice you roll.

Unless you are trying to claim that a double 1 is not also 2 single 1s? Because that would be quite funny....

A triple 1 is, by definition, also a double 1 (well, 3 different double 1s) and so would trigger Perils.

yeah,
Whoa... what game system are we discussing here...
Because double 6's means go to jail in monopoly.

Panic...

edit:
Here's how I would play it, and I play RAI.

1, 1, 6 = no perils of the warp test.
1, 1, 1 = perils of the warp test

Here's how I see RAW.

1, 1, 6 = no perils of the warp test.
1, 1, 1 = no perils of the warp test

Panic wrote:yeah,
Whoa... what game system are we discussing here...
Because double 6's means go to jail in monopoly.

Panic...

edit:
Here's how I would play it, and I play RAI.

1, 1, 6 = no perils of the warp test.
1, 1, 1 = perils of the warp test

Here's how I see RAW.

1, 1, 6 = no perils of the warp test.
1, 1, 1 = no perils of the warp test

So, you feel that Runes of Warding, a wargear upgrade that is supposed to make psychic attacks harder to use, should make it HARDER to suffer a PoTW?

. . .OK.

I just never knew he wrote the Eldar codex, as he knows what the intent is.

No, that makes one minor instance harder. It's a lot harder, all things considered. What about he rest of the RoW text? Does it not say to add them up? How exactly is that phrased?

apwill4765 wrote:So, you feel that Runes of Warding, a wargear upgrade that is supposed to make psychic attacks harder to use, should make it HARDER to suffer a PoTW?

Panic wrote:regardless of how you get your third die

yeah,
Runes of Warding makes psychic powers harder to cast by forceing the psychic to use a extra dice to increases the chance of rolling over the psychers Ld and failing his psychic test ..
It isn't tring to make the psycher roll a double 1 or a double 6 by giving him more dice!
Because Doubles can't be rolled on three dice.... so it also adds the kicker, results of 12 or more suffer a perils of the warp attack.

Or it would say something like 'if any two of the three dice are 1's or any two of the three dice are '6s the psycher suffers a perils of the warp attack...'

Also the probability of rolling 12 or more on three dice is 91/216 (37.5%)
while rolling a double 1 or a double 6 on two dice is 2/36 (5.556%)

So No, I don't believe that Runes of warding make it more difficult to suffer a attack from perils of the warp...

The OP is requesting a clarification on Runes of Wardings interaction with perils of the warp.
So we are discussing the perils of the warp conditions for activating.
Perils of the Warp requires a double... doubles are rolled on two dice... not three...

If using Runes of warding.
6, 6, 1
Will suffer a perils of the warp attack
Not because there is two 6's in the roll. it's not a double there is another dice there...
But Because the result of 13 > 11.

Panic...

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Gwar! wrote:I just never knew he wrote the Eldar codex, as he knows what the intent is.

edit: I got my numbers wrong in the dice percentages... I think it's right now.

I know how it works, it always screws my WT Princes. I'm asking how's it worded? It's weird that nobody has quoted it yet.

at first i thought Panic was nuts. But ive looked up the meaning of "double" and the meaning of "pair" and i have to say im in his corner now.

its impossible to refer to something as "double" when your refering to 3. 3 is a triple. Double means 2x 1 thing or multiples of things. If you roll 3 dice you actually would be rolling a triple 1 or a pair of 1's and a single one. You cant claim a double 1 and a single one because the meaning is wrong.

If you have 2 of anything within a larger amount you have pairs . Ive seen no reference to doubles being included within larger amounts.

Since the rules dont state "pairs" i would say that Panic assesment is actually more Raw than Gwars

a triple was rolled.. hence no PotW

even if 2 1's were rolled and a 6 it would be impossible to roll a double since 3 dice were rolled.

According to Jervis, it causes one on a 4+ and doesn't on a 3 or less.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:According to Jervis, it causes one on a 4+ and doesn't on a 3 or less.

zedsdead wrote:at first i thought Panic was nuts. But ive looked up the meaning of "double" and the meaning of "pair" and i have to say im in his corner now.

its impossible to refer to something as "double" when your refering to 3. 3 is a triple. Double means 2x 1 thing or multiples of things. If you roll 3 dice you actually would be rolling a triple 1 or a pair of 1's and a single one. You cant claim a double 1 and a single one because the meaning is wrong.

If you have 2 of anything within a larger amount you have pairs . Ive seen no reference to doubles being included within larger amounts.

Since the rules dont state "pairs" i would say that Panic assesment is actually more Raw than Gwars

a triple was rolled.. hence no PotW

even if 2 1's were rolled and a 6 it would be impossible to roll a double since 3 dice were rolled.

"Double" and "pair" are synonyms.

(double - adjective)

1. Twice as much or as large: twofold. See big.
2. Consisting of two identical or similar related things, parts, or elements: dual, paired, twin. See same.
3. Composed of two parts or things: biform, binary, dual, duple, duplex, duplicate, geminate, twofold. See part.

Referring to a "double" is synonymous to referring to a "pair". The two terms can be used interchangeably, and that is how they are being used here. That being so, the argument of Panic and zedsdead is manifest nonsense.

EDIT: I just realized what the disconnect here is. Panic and zedsdead are using "double" in the sense of the third meaning; something with two parts. Obviously, taking the roll as a whole, it has more than two parts, and thus does not fit that definition. However, there is another definition which they are NOT accounting for; something composed of two identical things is also a double. Rolling two ones out of three dice does fall under this definition, and thus is a double.

Gwar! wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:According to Jervis, it causes one on a 4+ and doesn't on a 3 or less.

Ha. I'm a sly one.

Instead of rolling it off on a 4+, you could roll 2D6 + 1D6. If the "original" 2 dice produce a double 1, it's a PotW?

Nivoglibina wrote:Instead of rolling it off on a 4+, you could roll 2D6 + 1D6. If the "original" 2 dice produce a double 1, it's a PotW?

Or you could follow the rules and roll 3D6 and if a Double 1, Double 6 or result greater than or equal to 12 occurs, you suffer a PotW as per page 50 of the Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

If you have two 1s, you have a pair of 1s, which is double 1s. It doesn't matter if you have a third die, it doesn't matter if you have a zillion more dice. A pair of 1s activates it. It is only the 1s that need be double, not both the 1s and the total number of dice rolled.

(Of course, as rolling three 1s actually makes 3 different pairs, the model suffers 3 Perils of the Warps.)

@Everyone claiming you can't roll a double on three dice

Would you maintain this view with Dark Eldar combat drugs? If so I would love a game against you

Roll 1d6 per option chose. If a double is rolled on the dice then the model suffers 1 wound. If a triple is rolled then the model is killed outright

But that's not a problem for me, since I pick all 6 bonuses, instead of just picking 2 or 3, I am now immune to the danger of Combat Drugs correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:If you have two 1s, you have a pair of 1s, which is double 1s. It doesn't matter if you have a third die, it doesn't matter if you have a zillion more dice. A pair of 1s activates it. It is only the 1s that need be double, not both the 1s and the total number of dice rolled.

(Of course, as rolling three 1s actually makes 3 different pairs, the model suffers 3 Perils of the Warps.)

I disagree with this, the Perils rules say "If a result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or a double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker" it can only trigger once because it's either "result is a double" or "result isn't a double" not "for every double 1 or 6 you roll".

well the offical gw faq address how to deal with witnessing vs warding...

roll 3 dice taking lowest 2 for passing the test, then the total for pow. AND do not do this if the farseer has already suffered such an attack because the lowest two results being a double 1 or double 6.

so 3x1 on the dice would be a POW, but 112 isnt.

Except it isnt addressed by the FAQ, as this is a different situation.

For what its worth, I think two 1's or 6's is enough to take a PoW hit. I don't think you need to take more than one ever though.

@ Drunkspleen, yes apparently you are free. The more drugs you use, the better! Remember that kids! ;P

*waits for ban*

Drunkspleen wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:If you have two 1s, you have a pair of 1s, which is double 1s. It doesn't matter if you have a third die, it doesn't matter if you have a zillion more dice. A pair of 1s activates it. It is only the 1s that need be double, not both the 1s and the total number of dice rolled.

(Of course, as rolling three 1s actually makes 3 different pairs, the model suffers 3 Perils of the Warps.)

I disagree with this, the Perils rules say "If a result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or a double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker" it can only trigger once because it's either "result is a double" or "result isn't a double" not "for every double 1 or 6 you roll".

Yeah, that last part was just me being silly.

Eldar Codex:Runes of Warding wrote:All enemy Psychic tests must be taken on 3D6, suffereing a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

This is an instance of the general rule of double 1 and double 6 causing perils of the warp being over ridden by a specific rule suffering Perils of the Warp on a roll of 12 or above.

The eldar codex changes two parts, rolls are made on 3D6 and failures are 12 or above. It has it's own rules for how Perils of the Warp function.

What is left is that you get no armor or cover saves and if you roll an invulnerable save you must make it twice or take a S6 wound.

sbeasley wrote:

Eldar Codex:Runes of Warding wrote:All enemy Psychic tests must be taken on 3D6, suffereing a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

This is an instance of the general rule of double 1 and double 6 causing perils of the warp being over ridden by a specific rule suffering Perils of the Warp on a roll of 12 or above.

The eldar codex changes two parts, rolls are made on 3D6 and failures are 12 or above. It has it's own rules for how Perils of the Warp function.

Nowhere does it say to ignore the normal rules.

Except it never replaces the double 1 result - it would need to have stated "instead of....." in order to do that.

CUrently you have BRB stating you suffer on a double 1 - this is not contradicted byt he codex

Omg, Nos, when did you swim across the Atlantic? You were supposed to invite me!! I was gonna bring my speedos!

I'm changing my argument.

The normal rules don't apply because you can never have the result of the test that is a double 1 or a double 6, the result could be: a (double 1 and a random d6), or a (double 6 and a random d6). While a double could be in the result set, it can never be the result of the test.

Why am i showing as Europe? Sky being funny...

I would play this exactly as the Codex says to... roll three dice and on a roll of 12+ suffer POTW.

Codex > Rulebook.

Specific > General

The rule adds a new clause but deos not override the BRB determination of PotW

When doing RAW, one of the things we must do when we come across rules that interact with each other is determine HOW they interact. In some cases, two rules are in conflict. In that case we must apply the more specific rule. In some cases, as with RoWa and PotW, both rules do not conflict with each other, so we must apply both of the rules. As stated before, no matter how many dice you roll, rolling any of the same number on two of the dice constitutes rolling "a double."

So, a double 1 or 6 will cause a PotW, as will rolling 12 or more.

When yousing runes of warding a Perils of the Wrp is triggered on a roll of:

x indicates any number.

(1,1,x), (6,6,x), (a total of: 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 (any combination))

(1, 1, x) is not equal to (1, 1) PotW specifically states that if the result is a double 1 then... While (1, 1, x) may contain a double 1 it isn't the result of the test, so the rules in PotW do not apply only the Eldar codex section applies.

sbeasley wrote:(1, 1, x) is not equal to (1, 1) PotW specifically states that if the result is a double 1 then... While (1, 1, x) may contain a double 1 it isn't the result of the test, so the rules in PotW do not apply only the Eldar codex section applies.

So, rolling two ones is not a double 1?

What are you smoking and can I have some please!

The result is a double 1 ... not the result contains a double 1.

For example: 1,1,x contains a double one but is not a double one result.

Whereas 1,1 both contains and is a double 1 result.

Gwar! wrote:So, rolling two ones is not a double 1?

What are you smoking and can I have some please!

It is, but that isn't what I was saying.

It says that the result of the test must be a double 1.

You are saying that 1, 1, 3 is a double 1. It isn't, it contains a double 1, sure. The rule for PotW says the result must be a double 1, the whole result can never be a double 1 when 3 dice are involved, you must take the entire result, not part of it. The result of the test is a double 1 and a 3, not exactly a double 1 now is it, so no PotW.

For example you roll a 1, a 1 and a 4. This is a double one and a 4. Its like the WHFB magic system. Double 1= miscast. You roll 3,1,4,1. Contains a double 1. Miscast.

If you cant comprehend that take this example. Double is the same as two. Right? So lets replace that:
Perils on the warp occurs on the roll of two ones or two sixes. So you roll 1,5,1. How many 1s are there? 2. 2=double=Perils of the warp.

Its obvious.

Why are you bringing WHFB into this? This is WH40K.

That would be like saying movement is like WHFB, so let's break out the movement trays.

Plus the rule for PotW states that the result of the psychic test is a double 1. You are telling me that the result of 1, 1, 4 is a double 1.

I can comprehend what you are saying. It just isn't correct in this instance.

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

The rules are clear that the result (the whole entirety of the result not part) has to be a double 1, and 1, 1, 4 is not a double 1 the result would be a double 1 and a 4.

sbeasley wrote:Why are you bringing WHFB into this? This is WH40K. Plus the rule for PotW states that the result of the psychic test is a double 1. You are telling me that the result of 1, 1, 4 is a double 1.

It is a double 1 and a 4. Nowhere does the rule say it must be ONLY a double one.

If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 ...

There can only be one result of a dice set.

1+1 = 2
The result is 2

By your logic
1+1+4 = {0, 1, 2, 5, 6}

It may contain all those values as part of the result, but it isn't the result.

sbeasley wrote:

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

The rules are clear that the result (the whole entirety of the result not part) has to be a double 1, and 1, 1, 4 is not a double 1 the result would be a double 1 and a 4.

The parenthetical is not a rule in the book, in case anyone missed it.

hmm as someone stated earlier there are multiple meanings of double and that is what people are arguing about, seeing as how GW seems to use the term in their literature, (DE codex in 40k and WHFB another system but using the same grammatical terminology and written by the same group of individuals) they mean that a double is merely two of the same thing.

Whether that is enough to settle this debate RAW, is not clear (i still think RAW is 1,1,x is PotW), but I believe it at least settles the RAI debate.

sbeasley wrote:Why are you bringing WHFB into this? This is WH40K.

The context i used was a good example. -edit-RAW says on the roll of a double one. The dice come up as 1,1,2. Oh, i have rolled a double one and also rolled a 2.

I feel like both sides are really arguing two very opposite points, and using different logic so combining your logic with the other side's point is not going to work well.

tiekwando wrote:hmm as someone stated earlier there are multiple meanings of double and that is what people are arguing about, seeing as how GW seems to use the term in their literature, (DE codex in 40k and WHFB another system but using the same grammatical terminology and written by the same group of individuals) they mean that a double is merely two of the same thing.

Yes because we all know how consistent GW is with things.

Holy hell. Do we need to draw up a truth table for this argument?

Actually, that might be a good idea. . .

@sbeasly. From your sig i can see you are an eldar player. If this was in a tournament and your runes of warding made a dice roll of 1,1,x. I'm sure you'd argue it was Perils of the Warp, against your argument.

Eldar Own wrote:

sbeasley wrote:Why are you bringing WHFB into this? This is WH40K.

The context i used was a good example. -edit-RAW says on the roll of a double one. The dice come up as 1,1,2. Oh, i have rolled a double one and also rolled a 2.

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

I think what one side is arguing is that the set {1,1,4} can be divided into {1,1}{4} or any other way you would like. For instance {1}{1}{4} if you wanted roll 3 to wounds rolls at once for instance.

While the other side is saying that {1,1,4} has to stay that way, or, assuming you don't roll single dice at a time, can be divided into {1}{1}{4} as each dice represents a single set, but for convenience sake have been thrown together.

Eldar Own wrote:@sbeasly. From your sig i can see you are an eldar player. If this was in a tournament and your runes of warding made a dice roll of 1,1,x. I'm sure you'd argue it was Perils of the Warp, against your argument.

Why would you assume that I would want to cheat my opponent?

Sbeasly, i do not have my rulebook on me but rulebooks tend to say roll rather than other things. Can someone check please.

I have a funny feeling that soon this thread will close...

tiekwando wrote:I think what one side is arguing is that the set {1,1,4} can be divided into {1,1}{4} or any other way you would like. For instance {1}{1}{4} if you wanted roll 3 to wounds rolls at once for instance.

While the other side is saying that {1,1,4} has to stay that way, or, assuming you don't roll single dice at a time, can be divided into {1}{1}{4} as each dice represents a single set, but for convenience sake have been thrown together.

I would agree with you if that were how leadership tests work.
In the case of wounds each die is it's own result
A leadership test result is the result of 2d6
RoW the result is on 3d6

There is not dividing the result up, so that it suits you.

But you are right those are the two sides of the argument.

sbeasley wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:@sbeasly. From your sig i can see you are an eldar player. If this was in a tournament and your runes of warding made a dice roll of 1,1,x. I'm sure you'd argue it was Perils of the Warp, against your argument.

Why would you assume that I would want to cheat my opponent?

Because your posting manner has been consistent. Consistent in the fact that every single post you make is contrary to what the rules say.

Really.

Okay I've looked at the rule book. I've quoted the rules verbatim. It says the result, not contains or any other such language that would even hint that you could break up the result so that it fits into your paradigm.

So I suggest that you read the relavant rules before posting your snarky comments about me trying to cheat anyone.

Gwar! wrote:Because your posting manner has been consistent. Consistent in the fact that every single post you make is contrary to what the rules say.

Now that is a fallacy in logic.

sbeasley wrote:Now that is a fallacy in logic.

Or, just perhaps, it is Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpə:rbəli/, from ancient Greek "ὑπερβολή", meaning excess or exaggeration) is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

Note, however, that hyperbole is in fact a logical fallacy. In this case, the "allness" fallacy.

In short, you're both right, everyone wins. Yay Dakka!

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Using that logic you cannot get double 1s on two dice even, as you get a two.

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Exactly what I've been saying.

You would be right, except this is not a calculation, function or statistical expression. Please define your terms and try again.

sbeasley wrote:

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Exactly what I've been saying.

So you agree that a result of 2 doesn't trigger PotW then, because as kirsanth pointed out, a result of 2 by that logic is not a double 1.

also dont ignore DE combat drugs, Is a DE lord that takes more than 3 combat drugs not able to take a wound or die?

Afterall according to you its not possible to roll a double on 3 dice, so i assume you cant roll a triple on 4+ dice following your asinine logic, so i guess every de player should just take all 6 drugs form now on ... lol or not.

sbeasley wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:

sbeasley wrote:Why are you bringing WHFB into this? This is WH40K.

The context i used was a good example. -edit-RAW says on the roll of a double one. The dice come up as 1,1,2. Oh, i have rolled a double one and also rolled a 2.

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

The result of the psychic test is what you roll.

What you roll = the result of your rolling.

If you roll double 1s your result is double 1s.


If you burn coal is the result a release of carbon dioxide? Yes, it is. "But it also produces water vapor!" That doesn't matter, it has still resulted in carbon dioxide, and thus it is a true statement. It didn't ask if the result was a release of nothing but carbon dioxide.

Great we determined that PotW never activates /sarcasm.

The result of 1, 1, 3 is not double 1 either. It contains a double 1 but isn't the result. Until you find language that changes the reading of the rule, or how GW interprets the meaning of result can be split up how you see fit. You have to consider the whole result.

The rule is very clear. There is no other interpretation.

Thank you for reminding me to go check on getting a facepalm ork icon made.

kirsanth wrote:

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Using that logic you cannot get double 1s on two dice even, as you get a two.

Exactly. You're not asked to find the sum of the dice, you're asked to find if there are two dice that have rolled 1s. And there are.

sbeasley wrote:Great we determined that PotW never activates /sarcasm.

The result of 1, 1, 3 is not double 1 either. It contains a double 1 but isn't the result. Until you find language that changes the reading of the rule, or how GW interprets the meaning of result can be split up how you see fit. You have to consider the whole result.

The rule is very clear. There is no other interpretation.

Y'know, I love how you just ignored every point made since your last post.

If you aren't going to refute the valid arguments of others, I suppose we'll just have to assume you are unable to. Debate's over!

kill dem stunties wrote:also dont ignore DE combat drugs, Is a DE lord that takes more than 3 combat drugs not able to take a wound or die?

Afterall according to you its not possible to roll a double on 3 dice, so i assume you cant roll a triple on 4+ dice following your asinine logic, so i guess every de player should just take all 6 drugs form now on ... lol or not.

When was DE written? When was 5th Edition written? A lot has changed since then, but since you asked.

The difference is that DE Combat Drugs specifically says that if a double is rolled on the dice. It doesn't mention anything about the result.

a double 1 or a double 6 result can only occur when 2d6 are being rolled. Once 3d6 are being rolled the result must include all three dice.

My logic still stands. Please refrain from your degrading comments. It's okay to disagree, just state your facts and let the chips fall where they may.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:Y'know, I love how you just ignored every point made since your last post.

If you aren't going to refute the valid arguments of others, I suppose we'll just have to assume you are unable to. Debate's over!

Sorry I missed one. I hope that clears it up for you.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

sbeasley wrote:

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

The result of the psychic test is what you roll.

What you roll = the result of your rolling.

If you roll double 1s your result is double 1s.


If you burn coal is the result a release of carbon dioxide? Yes, it is. "But it also produces water vapor!" That doesn't matter, it has still resulted in carbon dioxide, and thus it is a true statement. It didn't ask if the result was a release of nothing but carbon dioxide.

You have yet to refute this. If you roll three dice and two ones show, you have a result of double ones. You also have two results of one, a result of some other number, a result of a one and some number, and a result of two ones and some other number. There are multiple results, one of which is double ones.

The difficulty arises because GW wrote "the result", instead of "a result". I suppose there is an argument to be made that by using "the" instead of "a", the writers imply the more specific, mathematical term meaning "endpoint of the function", but I feel that argument is extremely weak; for one thing, the mathematical "result" would require you to ADD the dice together, in which case one could never roll a "double one" no matter how many dice they used, making it impossible to suffer a PotW attack, ever. For another, rolling dice is not a mathematical function, and thus you cannot apply mathematical definitions to it.


EDIT: Also, "result" is synonymous with "product". Can we all agree that double ones are a "product" if you roll three dice, two of which give a result of one? If so, then double ones are also a "result", according to the dictionary.

Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:
If you burn coal is the result a release of carbon dioxide? Yes, it is. "But it also produces water vapor!" That doesn't matter, it has still resulted in carbon dioxide, and thus it is a true statement. It didn't ask if the result was a release of nothing but carbon dioxide.

You have yet to refute this. If you roll three dice and two ones show, you have a result of double ones. You also have two results of one, a result of some other number, a result of a one and some number, and a result of two ones and some other number. There are multiple results, one of which is double ones.

The difficulty arises because GW wrote "the result", instead of "a result". I suppose there is an argument to be made that by using "the" instead of "a", the writers imply the more specific, mathematical term meaning "endpoint of the function", but I feel that argument is extremely weak; for one thing, the mathematical "result" would require you to ADD the dice together, in which case one could never roll a "double one" no matter how many dice they used, making it impossible to suffer a PotW attack, ever. For another, rolling dice is not a mathematical function, and thus you cannot apply mathematical definitions to it.


EDIT: Also, "result" is synonymous with "product". Can we all agree that double ones are a "product" if you roll three dice, two of which give a result of one? If so, then double ones are also a "result", according to the dictionary.

The coal example is describing the rules for Runes of Witnessing. Take 3d6 from that result take the two lowest dice and that is your result. The higher number is like the water vapor, the lower numbers is your CO2, what we really care about, and thus can more easily get a PotW result of a double 1.

To clear up my thinking

DE Combat Drugs: {1} {1} {2} each die is it's own result, and thus can result in {{1},{1}} or double 1
RoWit: {1,1,3} but you look within the result to get a new result {1,1} PotW
RoWard: {1,1,3} the result is not a double 1, and it does not total 12 or greater so no PotW

You are correct that they wrote "the result" which is singular, which is why I take it as the end product. The mathematical argument still stands as a result is not always a singular value, as it can be a set as I have shown in curly brackets, but the result set has to be taken as a whole. Results sets can be combined though as in the DE Combat Drugs example, they just can't be taken apart unless given permission to do so as in the RoWit example.

Excellent debate by the way. It's your counter point.


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Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

Because there are those who view {1, 1, x} results in a PotW, because of the double 1 within the result set.

sbeasley wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

Because there are those who view {1, 1, x} results in a PotW, because of the double 1 within the result set.

You mean those who follow the rules then.

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

Because there are those who view {1, 1, x} results in a PotW, because of the double 1 within the result set.

You mean those who follow the rules then.

That would be a matter of opinion, and in mine, it is you who are not following the rules.

It would be appreciated if you would actually refute my claim, or find fault in my logic, yet you haven't. You just increase your thread count, so you can say Lookie here my thread count is higher, so I'm right.

sbeasley wrote:It would be appreciated if you would actually refute my claim, or find fault in my logic, yet you haven't. You just increase your thread count, so you can say Lookie here my thread count is higher, so I'm right.

You say {1,1,x} is not a double 1 and an x. By That logic, a {1,1} is also not a double one

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:It would be appreciated if you would actually refute my claim, or find fault in my logic, yet you haven't. You just increase your thread count, so you can say Lookie here my thread count is higher, so I'm right.

You say {1,1,x} is not a double 1 and an x. By That logic, a {1,1} is also not a double one

I did not say that.
{1, 1, x} is a double 1 and an x. Clearly that is not {1, 1} which is a double 1.

I'm not the one who is trying to split a result, where I'm not given permission to do so.

sbeasley wrote:The coal example is describing the rules for Runes of Witnessing. Take 3d6 from that result take the two lowest dice and that is your result. The higher number is like the water vapor, the lower numbers is your CO2, what we really care about, and thus can more easily get a PotW result of a double 1.

To clear up my thinking

DE Combat Drugs: {1} {1} {2} each die is it's own result, and thus can result in {{1},{1}} or double 1
RoWit: {1,1,3} but you look within the result to get a new result {1,1} PotW
RoWard: {1,1,3} the result is not a double 1, and it does not total 12 or greater so no PotW

{1,1,3}, {1}, {1}, {3}, {1,1}, {1,3}, and {1,3} are all the result of the Psychic Test. And they're all results. The plurality of the word "result" doesn't matter, because the word "result" needn't simultaneously denote every creation by the verb; it may refer to any and all. Permission to "split the result" isn't necessary, because the result cannot be split; it remains the result no matter how it is "broken up".

If rolling doubles isn't the result of the Psychic Test, what was the cause of rolling doubles?


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Something tells me this is the kind of thread that will go on for ten pages, though.

No way. It will be locked before then.

Bonus points to anyone who looks up "results".

The set answer that applies in math has the two 1s become a 2 - by calculation.

Gwar! wrote:

Altimera wrote:RoWa cause a PotW if you roll a 12 or higher (note that it could be due to but there are plenty of combinations on the dice to cause a 12+)

Yes, very true. Had a bit of a brainfart there

A Roll of 6,6,x will cause a PotW as per the BRB, however, any roll of 12 or more (for example, a 1,5,6 / a 4,4,4 or a 5,5,4) will trigger a PotW because of the RoW.

I just had that situation today when my eldar faced off against space puppies. My opponent rolled a six, four, and three, totaling thirteen. I thought it had to be double sixes and rolling 3x dice just gave you a better chance at getting that second six.

Okay Psychic Tests are normal Leadership Tests. Under Leadership Tests it states:

BGB pg8 wrote:In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2d6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

Here we see that the result is the sum of the dice. That is the only result.

BGB pg50 wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

We know from the Leadership rules that the result is actually the sum of the dice rolled. In the case of a normal 2d6 Psyker (Leadership) Test a double 1 is really a result of 2, and a double 6 is really a result of 12 according the result being defined under the Leadership portion.

Now one could come to 2 conclusions at this point. Either no one ever suffers PotW, because the result is either 2 or 12, and not double 1 or double 6, or you can assume that by double 1 they meant a result of 2 and double 6 they meant a result of 12.

And on 3d6 the lowest result is 3.

sbeasley wrote:And on 3d6 the lowest result is 3.

So what? It's the Double 1 that causes a PotW, not a result of 2.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I just had that situation today when my eldar faced off against space puppies. My opponent rolled a six, four, and three, totaling thirteen. I thought it had to be double sixes and rolling 3x dice just gave you a better chance at getting that second six.

RoW states that any result 12 or over causes a PotW. Rolling a 6,6,x is always over 12 anyway, so it is a moot point.

sbeasley wrote:Okay Psychic Tests are normal Leadership Tests. Under Leadership Tests it states:

BGB pg8 wrote:In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2d6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

Here we see that the result is the sum of the dice. That is the only result.

It doesn't say only. All things that come of the dice roll are the result of the dice roll, and in this case it is simply referring to the sum. The sum is the result of the Psychic Test in this instance, because that's what it's asking you to find, just as it asks you to find the number of 1s rolled later on.

BGB pg50 wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

We know from the Leadership rules that the result is actually the sum of the dice rolled. In the case of a normal 2d6 Psyker (Leadership) Test a double 1 is really a result of 2,

"A double 1" is not a sum; it's not a number. You cannot add any two numbers together and get "a double 1".

By your logic, Perils of the Warp should be impossible. However by mine, Perils of the Warp is fully possible. That seems to imply that Games Workshop does not believe the sum to be the only possible result of the test (nor should they).

I actually already defined "result", but here we go again.

re⋅sult
–verb (used without object)
1. to spring, arise, or proceed as a consequence of actions, circumstances, premises, etc.; be the outcome.
2. to terminate or end in a specified manner or thing.
–noun
3. something that happens as a consequence; outcome.
4. Mathematics. a quantity, expression, etc., obtained by calculation.
5. Often, results. a desirable or beneficial consequence, outcome, or effect: We had definite results within weeks.
—Idiom
6. get results, to obtain a notable or successful result or response; be effective.

We are currently dealing with "results" as a noun. We thus need only concern ourselves with definitions 3, 4, and 5.

So, #3; something that happens as a consequence; outcome.

NOTE: This does NOT say, "everything" that happens as an outcome, only "something". An individual "result" is ANYTHING that happens as a consequence of an action.

Now, GW wrote that "the result", singular, must be a double 1 or double 6. Unfortunately, this is nonsensical. A roll of 2d6 has three results; that is, the result of one die, the result of the other die, and the result of both together. A roll of 3d6 has 7 results; the result of die 1, the result of die 2, the result of die 3, the result of dice 1&2, the result of dice 1&3, the result of dice 2&3, and the result of all 3 together.

In short, referring to "the result" of anything but a mathematical operation makes no sense. There's more than one. If you take this literally, a player could always avoid PotW simply by choosing a result which does not bring it into effect. In this case, therefore, we must conclude that GW meant "a result", not "the result".

We then consider ALL results of the die roll, whether 2d6 or 3d6, and determine whether ANY ONE of them is a double 1, or a double 6. If so, the psyker suffers a PotW attack.

QED

Ok, so everyone who posted after Drunkspleen posted an excellent example of why Panic is looney, why is this still being argued.

Combat drugs kill if triples are scored depending on how many drugs you take. Taking all 6 would then somehow make you immune to the effects? The answer is NO. a double is 2 of the same dice and x how ever many other dice. Get over it.

sbeasley: you are just plain wrong, and conveniently side stepping everything that has been said to prove you wrong. A PoTW is a result of double 1s, not a 2 as you say. You can say that they "really meant 2", but unless you are doing the writing at GW then you don't know what they really meant.

So, let's work off of the assumption that they "really meant" what they "really wrote", which is PoTW goes off on a double 1 or 6.

Now, maybe DE was written a while ago, but that does not change the nature of how GW views a double. It's something that has nothing to do with rules, but how you view the concept of double. Obviously, the DE rule indicates that a double can be part of a set of dice of whatever number of dice.

I know you must really really dislike having to determine a potw on 3d6, but them's the rules. If you don't want to play by them, play "sbeasley Presents 40k (2.0)"--it will be awesome, with a small elite player base.

Also, you broke down combat drugs as {x}{x}{x} and RoWar as {xxx}.

However, what we really have is:

RoWar {x x x}

CD [{x} {x} {x}]

They are both part of a set. One is rolled simultaneously and the other not, but they are still one set of results. So if doubles don't count for the first set they shouldn't count for the second. So I guess I'll just always take 4 drugs and after the third drugs kills me the 4th one can negate that ill effect.

Okay let me get this straight, if you think each die is a result, and each combination of dice is a result then on a roll of {1, 1, 1} there would be three separate and distinct instances of double 1, so there would be three PotW. That is just crazy. Plus a leadership test already defines "the result" as the sum of the dice. There is no other result that happens, as a Psychic Test is a normal Leadership Test as per the rules, so dictionary references to result do not apply as GW conveniently provided us with the definition.

CD allows you to roll multiple die, and take each die as it's own result, because that is part of the rule, it also then says that if any of the dice you rolled come up with doubles or triples then use these rules. It's going from a small results set to a greater result set.

PotW the result set is 2d6, but RoWar make it 3d6. The result set is 3d6, not smaller. No were does it give language to break the result set up.

Look at RoWit it says to roll 3d6, but take the lowest 2, you are given permission to break the result set up, so you can get PotW.

I repeat "the result" for Leadership Tests has already been defined. You must use that definition for "the result"

{1,1,1} does have 3 distinct sets of double ones, but one can only exist at a time. For instance to make things simple, you have a set of {1a,1b,1c} you can have a set{1a,1b} or {1a,1c} or {1b,1c} but you can only ever have one of these sets at the same time because the elements of the set cannot be repeated.

tiekwando wrote:{1,1,1} does have 3 distinct sets of double ones, but one can only exist at a time. For instance to make things simple, you have a set of {1a,1b,1c} you can have a set{1a,1b} or {1a,1c} or {1b,1c} but you can only ever have one of these sets at the same time because the elements of the set cannot be repeated.

Precisely. So {1,1,1} results in 1 PoTW, as does {1,1,2} or {1,6,1} etc.


EDIT: read the poster name incorrectly lol.

I think it is funny how I'm the only one, who is quoting rules to explain my self, yet everyone else wants to pull out the dictionary, or give real life examples. Let's follow the rules people.

sbeasley wrote:I think it is funny how I'm the only one, who is quoting rules to explain my self, yet everyone else wants to pull out the dictionary, or give real life examples. Let's follow the rules people.

Actually, I quoted DE rules. When you quote the rules but don't know what the word double means, it doesn't really help, does it.


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sbeasley wrote:Okay let me get this straight, if you think each die is a result, and each combination of dice is a result then on a roll of {1, 1, 1} there would be three separate and distinct instances of double 1, so there would be three PotW. That is just crazy. Plus a leadership test already defines "the result" as the sum of the dice. There is no other result that happens, as a Psychic Test is a normal Leadership Test as per the rules, so dictionary references to result do not apply as GW conveniently provided us with the definition.

Nope. See post immediately following yours.

sbeasley wrote:

CD allows you to roll multiple die, and take each die as it's own result, because that is part of the rule, it also then says that if any of the dice you rolled come up with doubles or triples then use these rules. It's going from a small results set to a greater result set.

Yep. Hey guess what, still ONE SET.

sbeasley wrote:
PotW the result set is 2d6, but RoWar make it 3d6. The result set is 3d6, not smaller. No were does it give language to break the result set up.

You are not breaking the result up, you are looking at the set as a whole and identifying double 1s

sbeasley wrote:
Look at RoWit it says to roll 3d6, but take the lowest 2, you are given permission to break the result set up, so you can get PotW.

I repeat "the result" for Leadership Tests has already been defined. You must use that definition for "the result"

The "result" is 2 dice. If they are both 1 or 6, that's a perils. If the addition of the result is greater than your leadership, the test is failed.

For RoWard, the "result" is 3 dice. If any two are 1 or 6, that's a perils. If the addition of the result is greater than your leadership, the test is failed. If the addition of the result is greater than 12, that's a perils.


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Also, take rending weapons as another example.

I fire my assault cannon at you and roll {6,6,6,6}

Rending states that a roll to hit of 6 is a rend.

Damn, I just rolled 4 6's, not "a" 6, so no rends.

Your argument is ludicrous. You can't look at the result of a multiple dice roll as one chunk and disregard the individual values of each die.

BGB pg8 Leadership Tests wrote:Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model’s Leadership, the test is passed.

The result isn't 2 dice. The result of any Leadership Test are the sum of the dice.

I think we need to stop bringing in DE Combat Drugs, because it isn't a leadership test, and thus isn't applicable to the discussion and just causes confusion.

All we have to go on are how Leadership Tests are taken into account, and wargear that modifies it. I only know of RoWar and RoWit both in the Eldar Codex. Both explicitly tell you what you can do.

BGB pg50 Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker. The forces of the Daemonhaunted Warp claw at the psyker’s mind and threaten to engulf and destroy him. The psyker suffers 1 wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. Invulnerable saves are allowed, but the power of the Warp is so great that successful saves must be re-rolled. Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result.

If the result, which is the result of the Leadership Test. Which has been defined as the sum of the dice. In conclusion, if the dice rolled are summed and that is "the result", on 3d6 "the result" can never be double 1 or double 6, as that is only part of "the result".


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apwill4765 wrote:Also, take rending weapons as another example.

I fire my assault cannon at you and roll {6,6,6,6}

Rending states that a roll to hit of 6 is a rend.

Damn, I just rolled 4 6's, not "a" 6, so no rends.

Your argument is ludicrous. You can't look at the result of a multiple dice roll as one chunk and disregard the individual values of each die.

Your argument is ludicrous. You are taking weapon shots and comparing them to a leadership test, where weapon shots are there own distinct result by themselves, where a Leadership test the individual dice mean nothing, only the combined result means something.

Rulebook Pg. 50 wrote:
PERILS OF THE WARP
If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker. ... The psyker suffers 1 wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. ... Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result.

From this we see that the result is either a double 1 or a double 6. Not a result is double 1 or double 6.

Rulebook Pg. 50 wrote:
Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test.

From this we see that a Psychic test is a normal leadership test.

Rulebook Pg. 8 wrote:
In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model’s Leadership, the test is passed.

We see that 2 dice a rolled and added together for a basic leadership test.

Eldar Codex Pg26 wrote:
Runes of Warding: ... All enemy Psychic tests must be taken on 3D6, suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

From this we see that a psychic test is taken on 3D6. Perils of the Warp will occur on a roll of 12 or above. This means that any result in this set {12,13,14,15,16,17,18}.

The basic leadership test is now taken on 3D6 instead of 2D6 which replaces how the test is taken. A section in this rule also defines how Perils of the Warp is figured out based on that roll (one that scored a 12 or greater. This replaces the Perils of the Warp roll because it is stating exactly how it occurs. Any roll of 12 or above is when perils of the warp occurs. The Codex is very specific on when the Perils of the Warp attack occurs. 12 or greater. Since the codex is specifying when Perils of the Warp occurs we no longer use the rules for determining when a Perils of the Warp occurs because we have a rule that replaces that section.

How the logic in the above statement goes is that the specifics of a particular rule and is subsequent rules in relation to it are being changed. The general rule is Psychic Tests and the subsequent rule that extend from this rule is the Perils of the Warp. The general rule is changed by the codex from tests being done on a 2D6 instead of a 3D6. This directly affects the subsequent rules (Perils of the Warp) and the codex specifies how this subsequent rule is resolved (on a roll of 12 or greater).

To me this is an instance of Specific > General. When Psychic Tests are Taken against Runes of Warding it is more Specific than when a Psychic Test is taken in general. You do not need the Words "instead of on a double 6 or a double 1" or "only on a roll of 12 or greater" because it is changing the general rules.

Also taking a subset of the the result to be the result of the set is not the actual result of the set. It is a subset of the result. The rolls do not say roll each dice individually and see if any subset of the 3 rolls are doubles (or a pair). The result is (1a,1b,1c). Subsets of this result are (1a) (1b) (1c) (1a,1b) (1a, 1c) (1b,1c) (1a,1b,1c). These subsets ARE NOT the result. They are subsets of the result. The result is (1a,1b,1c). This result is a triple 1. It contains subsets that are doubles but the result is not a double.


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apwill4765 wrote:
Also, take rending weapons as another example.

I fire my assault cannon at you and roll {6,6,6,6}

Rending states that a roll to hit of 6 is a rend.

Damn, I just rolled 4 6's, not "a" 6, so no rends.

Your argument is ludicrous. You can't look at the result of a multiple dice roll as one chunk and disregard the individual values of each die.

Actually when you do rending each roll is a D6. When you do a leadership test the roll is a 2D6. When you roll with leadership in this argument it is 3D6. Just because you roll 4 dice with an assault cannon does not make it 4D6. It makes it 4 separate D6 rolls. You're argument is flawed. Now Melta guns are a different issue because they roll 2D6 for penetration. In your argument above I add all of the rolls together because you are effectively stating that I rolled 4D6 and got a 24 on my rolls ... 24 BOOM goes your land raider! I win!

If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6...

All enemy Psychic tests must be taken on 3D6, suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

Do these rules conflict? Psychic tests from the BRB say that if you roll a double 1 or double 6 you take a PotW. Eldar RoWa say that you now roll a 3d6 instead of a 2d6 and take a PotW if you roll 12 or above. I see this as case of additional rules, as you can still roll double 1s or double 6s with 3 dice. If rules do not conflict we apply both. I personally read them as not conflicting.

No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.



and beas:

By your definition POTW can NEVER happen. You're crazy. You say
"Which has been defined as the sum of the dice. In conclusion, if the dice rolled are summed and that is "the result", on 3d6 "the result" can never be double 1 or double 6, as that is only part of "the result"."

If Ld result is the sum of the dice, then the results are 2-12. Never 2 1s or 2 6s, since you never look at individual dice.


That.. that's just insane man. You can't have your rules interpretation work for 3d6 and totally fall apart for 2d6

Part of a result is a result. If you're too thick to allow that into your brain, we will just have to avoid games in which on of us is Eldar =P

k I gotta go to class.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your argument is ludicrous. You are taking weapon shots and comparing them to a leadership test, where weapon shots are there own distinct result by themselves, where a Leadership test the individual dice mean nothing, only the combined result means something.

Uh no, the individual dice do mean something in LD, just as in shooting. Because if one die is 1, and the other die is 1 (NOT IF THE RESULT ADDS TO 2, THAT IS NOT WHAT THE RULE SAYS-- It states if DOUBLE 1s or 6s are rolled, (i.e. look at the DICE not the SUM)) then you suffer PoTW

Your argument is ludicrous no tagbacks.

sbeasley wrote:

BGB pg8 Leadership Tests wrote:Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model’s Leadership, the test is passed.

The result isn't 2 dice. The result of any Leadership Test are the sum of the dice.

And as was explained before "the result" of 2 dice added together (a mathematical operator) CANNOT BE {1,1} or {6,6} which is what a double 1 or double 6 actually is. Your definition of "result" gives values between 2 and 12 (for a standard test) and never gives "double 1" or "double 6" as a result.

If you are stating as your logic that "the result"of a PotW test is adding the two dice together, the result can never under any circumstances be a double 1 meaning you have just stated you can never suffer PotW.

You may be quoting rules, you are however missing a very important point - your interpretation requires that PotW never happens. Everyone elses interpretation, which states the result is a double 1 includes {1,1,x} and parses perfectly well through BRB rules and, crucially - PotW actually occurs.

So, either restate your argument to avoid summation as a requirement, or you accept that PotW can never happen.

sbeasley wrote:The result isn't 2 dice. The result of any Leadership Test are the sum of the dice.

Correct. The next part is where you confuse yourself, and others.

sbeasley wrote:

BGB pg50 Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

If the result, which is the result of the Leadership Test. Which has been defined as the sum of the dice. In conclusion, if the dice rolled are summed and that is "the result", on 3d6 "the result" can never be double 1 or double 6, as that is only part of "the result".

Part of a result is indeed a result. The result of a LD test is the sum of the dice.
A pair of 1s or pair of 6s is a different "result", as you pointed out. One cannot sum them and get a pair of numbers.
One must instead look at the resulting roll, not the result OF the roll.
You roll 3 dice onto the table.
Does this result in a pair of 1s on the table?
It does not say "only a pair" and the power that causes three dice to be rolled does not even imply it.
Saying "Yes, but. . . " is still saying "Yes". And that is all it requires to trigger potw.

sbeasley wrote:Okay let me get this straight, if you think each die is a result, and each combination of dice is a result then on a roll of {1, 1, 1} there would be three separate and distinct instances of double 1 . . .
. . .I repeat "the result" for Leadership Tests has already been defined. You must use that definition for "the result"

For your first point; yes, there are three seperate combinations which make up double one. This makes no difference at all; you need a double one (singular instance) to get a PotW attack, and further results don't matter.

For your second; no, sorry, that is a partial definition. GW is not changing the English language, and you don't get to change it to suit your own purposes. The word "result" covers a multitude of things; as has been REPEATEDLY demonstrated, only ONE of those definitions is effectively applicable here.

apwill4765 wrote:No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.

Okay since I'm rolling 4d6 with a result of {4, 4, 4, 4} the result of 16 + weapon Strength, hey I just penetrated that land raider. <-- This is the same argument you are trying to make, I can just use what ever result I find fitting to get the result that I want. Comparing weapons which each die actually means something, to a leadership test just cannot be done. It's apples and oranges.

apwill4765 wrote:Your argument is ludicrous no tagbacks.

Nice.




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BeRzErKeR wrote:The word "result" covers a multitude of things; as has been REPEATEDLY demonstrated, only ONE of those definitions is effectively applicable here.

In game terms I'm using the definition that GW has provided for us.

While RAW technically PotW would never happen based on the definition of how GW has defined how they are using "the result" It's obviously not how it is played, nor how I would play it.

So PotW can now have two results at this point. the result of the sum of the dice, and the result of all the dice individually, not a subset, so PotW can only occur when 2d6 are rolled on double 1 and double 6, and 3d6 on a 12+, because {1,1,x} can not ever be a double 1.

While in shooting individual dice mean something, a Leadership test the 2d6 mean something, they are a set. That is the result. When you roll 3d6 for the Leadership test that set means something. All of it, not a portion.

I also am of the opinion that the wording of RoWar actually are more specific on what you do over the general PotW rules.

sbeasley wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.

Okay since I'm rolling 4d6 with a result of {4, 4, 4, 4} the result of 16 + weapon Strength, hey I just penetrated that land raider. <-- This is the same argument you are trying to make, I can just use what ever result I find fitting to get the result that I want. Comparing weapons which each die actually means something, to a leadership test just cannot be done. It's apples and oranges.

apwill4765 wrote:Your argument is ludicrous no tagbacks.

Nice.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:The word "result" covers a multitude of things; as has been REPEATEDLY demonstrated, only ONE of those definitions is effectively applicable here.

In game terms I'm using the definition that GW has provided for us.

While RAW technically PotW would never happen based on the definition of how GW has defined how they are using "the result" It's obviously not how it is played, nor how I would play it.

So PotW can now have two results at this point. the result of the sum of the dice, and the result of all the dice individually, not a subset, so PotW can only occur when 2d6 are rolled on double 1 and double 6, and 3d6 on a 12+, because {1,1,x} can not ever be a double 1.

While in shooting individual dice mean something, a Leadership test the 2d6 mean something, they are a set. That is the result. When you roll 3d6 for the Leadership test that set means something. All of it, not a portion.

I also am of the opinion that the wording of RoWar actually are more specific on what you do over the general PotW rules.

You have just now said that PoTW can have a result of all the dice individual. That is a start. You have acknowledged that GW recognizes the individual dice of a leadership roll, which you weren't doing 1 post ago. My rend roll stands, as you look at the individual die, not the sum. You look at BOTH for leadership.

Now, you say that GW says to look at ALL of the individual dice. Show me one line of rules that even remotely suggests that. It doesn't exist. Nowhere does it say ALL of the dice must be a double 1 or 6. It says a double 1 or 6 must be rolled.


Theeeeeee End.

wow 4 pages, this reminds me of the KFF gives a 5+ obscured result thread.

PotW on a 12+ it really can be that easy.

Ealiom wrote:wow 4 pages, this reminds me of the KFF gives a 5+ obscured result thread.

PotW on a 12+ it really can be that easy.

I believe I said THE END

You can roll a double on 3 dice, so fall foul of PotW. Yes you may argue that if you roll a triple it doesn't happen, But In a triple any there are 3 doubles combinations.

If you don't like that ... tough. Nothing in the Runes of warding rules switches off the original PotW rules. Any time you do a psychic test if you roll a double 1 or 6 you suffer PotW.

apwill4765 wrote:I believe I said THE END

Oh it can't be the end, because I can take a subset of what you think "the end" is and make it something completely different.

TO BE CONTINUED....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For what it's worth. I do see your point of view. Heck I would love to cheese out my army. I just don't think that the rules support splitting up dice that are meant to be rolled together. You bring up weapons, which each die by itself has meaning, but in leadership tests the dice are one specific unit that are to be looked at as a whole.

2d6 a result of 2 and a double 1 is essentially the same thing.

On 3d6 is becomes muddled. You say you can look for doubles within the result, and I say the rules don't support that action. I've not seen sufficient evidence in your posts to sway me to your point of view.

So we can leave it at that.

Just be thankful if you ever play me, and roll {1,1,x} I'm not going to make you take PotW.

apwill4765 wrote:No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.

Each shot is a D6 Roll. There are 4 shots. This does not equate to 4D6. This equates to 4 rolls of a D6 that happen at the exact same time but are completely separate instances that have absolutely nothing to do with each other except they are coming from the same weapon and are going to the same target. Each D6 is an individual roll.

A leadership test is rolled on 2D6. These must be rolled together and are a part of the same test. Both dice affect the roll because they are not for separate tests (in the case of the assault cannon each die is a test to see if a shot hits or wounds/penetrates). A 2D6 test is not the same as firing a rapid fire weapon within 12" because I get 2 shots with the weapon. You roll 2 dice but they are each unique situations. A leadership test does not make the dice unique because they are a set.

Here's the situation:
An assault cannon fires 4 shots.
Each die rolled is checked against the BS table to see if it hits. (Single each out individually).
All dice that score hits are rolled to see if they penetrate\wound. (Single each out individually).
Each die that scored a 6 in it's wound/penetrate applies the rending rule.
Wounds and Saves taken as specified in the rules.

A leadership test is quite different since you are required to roll 2D6. This is a single roll. You CANNOT take it's parts.
A morale test is taken.
2D6 is rolled. (Taken collectively).
The total is compared to the Ld of the unit.

There is no subset of this 2D6 roll. There is simply 2 dice that equate out to 2D6 that is rolled for the leadership test. I cannot say I rolled a 3 and a 6. My leadership is 8. Well I'll just take the D6 that shows a 3 twice and add that together to get a 2D6 roll of 6. I pass my leadership test.

This is the exact logic you use to compare the Assault Cannon to the Psychic test except reversed. A 2D6 roll has the result as the sum of its parts ... not its parts individually.

sbeasley wrote:
Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

Last line of the Perils of the Warp paragraph "Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." This is a direct reference to earlier in the paragraph "If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened...."

Logically speaking:
If psyker rolls double 1 (either {1,1} or {1,1,X}
Then psyker will still use his power even if wounded or killed

To be wounded or killed something horrible has to have happened.. which means the result of double 1s on a psychic test is equivalent to a psyker who rolls double 1 no matter the number of dice thrown.

Dracol wrote:

sbeasley wrote:
Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

Last line of the Perils of the Warp paragraph "Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." This is a direct reference to earlier in the paragraph "If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened...."

Logically speaking:
If psyker rolls double 1 (either {1,1} or {1,1,X}
Then psyker will still use his power even if wounded or killed

To be wounded or killed something horrible has to have happened.. which means the result of double 1s on a psychic test is equivalent to a psyker who rolls double 1 no matter the number of dice thrown.

Actually it states the result of double 1 ... not double ones within the set of dice thrown. You are adding information and interpreting this to include all possible rolls of Psychic Tests. This is specifying that even if a Perils of the Warp attack happens a Psyker who has rolled a successful leadership test still uses the power.

According to your logic here I can have a psyker with leadership 7. With Runes of Warding I roll a 1, 1 and a 6 on my 3D6 roll. I have a double 1. Therefore I succeed the test because I can use the double ones and it states in the rulebook that on double ones the power succeeds. This is in direct conflict where the total of the 3D6 must be beneath the leadership of my psyker. OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

rogueeyes wrote:OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

Eh?

You ask what happens when a general rule in the codex is being challenged by a specific rule in a codex?

If so, codex > rulebook (specific > general).

So easy answer: you fail. (Ed: as in, you fail the test, not as you fail @ life or some such lol )
Ed2: Oh any you take a PotW for 2 ones ;P

BUT the rest of the PotW rule remains clear as nothing in the codex says anything else about that.

The double 1s part of POTW does not actually state the power is used successfully.
The base rules state "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test. . ."

1+1+6 on LD 6 or less model is perils and a failed attempt to trigger the effect.

/shrug

SuperioR wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

Eh?

You ask what happens when a general rule in the codex is being challenged by a specific rule in a codex?

If so, codex > rulebook (specific > general).

So easy answer: you fail. (Ed: as in, you fail the test, not as you fail @ life or some such lol )

BUT the rest of the PotW rule remains clear as nothing in the codex says anything else about that.

Wait so the Rule book states that the power succeeds on a double one and a perils of the warp occurs on a double one ... then you specify that no the power fails on a double one if it is above the leadership because the codex is specific about what succeeds and what fails. But wait ... the codex specifies when PotW happens as well and does not state that it happens on doubles.

Let me understand this correctly:
The codex is more specific than the rulebook.
You roll on a 3D6 instead of a 2D6 because the codex tells you to.
The rulebook says that you fail a leadership test if you roll above your leadership.
The rulebook states that you succeed if you roll double ones.
The rulebook states that you suffer perils of the warp if you roll a double one.
The codex states that you suffer a perils of the warp if you roll greater than 12.

Wait a second ... the codex and the rulebook give you how to figure out perils of the warp. The Perils of the Warp rule in the rulebook should be negated because the codex is stating WHEN perils of the warp occurs.

You are stating that I can take the double ones as a subset (which means I succeed according to Perils of the Warp but suffer a perils of the warp attack) or I can fail and not suffer a perils of the warp attack.

On double ones under perils of the warp I succeed. so a Psyker with a Ld of 7 can roll a (1,1,6). This would normally fail. Because of Perils of the Warp states on Double 1's the Psychic test succeeds but a PotW attack happens that I succeed. I took the double 1s subset and used it for my advantage. Now I just have to save that wound.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:The double 1s part of POTW does not actually state the power is used successfully.
The base rules state "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test. . ."

1+1+6 on LD 6 or less model is perils and a failed attempt to trigger the effect.

/shrug

But a normal leadership test is taken on 2D6. The codex states Psychic tests are taken on 3D6. This is no longer a normal leadership test. I feel that this would fail because you have to take the entire roll into account ... not a subset. On a subset of double ones I am told by perils of the warp that I can still use the power.

What about this? I punch you in the face (I know, Im violent!) and give you a bloody nose and a black eye. You are now in court pressing charges against me and the lawyer says to you "Was that black eye the result of my client punching you in the face?" and you can only answer yes or no.

According to your logic I get off scott free! Come here so I can punch you in the face!

mattnaik wrote:What about this? I punch you in the face (I know, Im violent!) and give you a bloody nose and a black eye. You are now in court pressing charges against me and the lawyer says to you "Was that black eye the result of my client punching you in the face?" and you can only answer yes or no.

According to your logic I get off scott free! Come here so I can punch you in the face!

Yes and it also caused a bloody nose. Also, you have a horrible Lawyer - I would get a new one.

Rogueeyes, you are committing the strawman fallacy. That is, you are misrepresenting the opposing argument, in order to demolish the false argument you are supposing. Perhaps I and others have not been sufficiently clear. I will rephrase in your terms.

In actual fact, the argument (which you have not yet refuted in any meaningful way), is that you must consider BOTH the sum AND all subsets. If ANY SUBSET (ie "result") of the roll is a double one or a double six, you suffer a PotW attack; REGARDLESS of the success or failure of the psychic power, which is determined by the sum of the dice. Thus, in your previous example of (1,1,6), the psyker BOTH fails AND suffers a PotW attack. The sequence goes like this;

1. Roll the dice.
2. Determine sum. In the example above, that is 8; the hypothetical Ld 7 psyker has failed his Ld. test.
3. Determine PotW. One of the subsets of that roll is (1,1); as a consequence, the psyker suffers a PotW attack.

The objection I foresee to this argument is the repetition of, "But GW said a power succeeds on a roll of double ones!". This is because GW was not thinking about 3d6 situations when they wrote the rulebook. Note that in a Ld. test, a sum of 2 is always a success. On 2d6, doubles ones are, of course, a 2. Thus, the test would normally succeed. It's only when you throw the third die in there that you can roll a double one and yet still fail.

If you wanted to be really strict, this is not exact RAW, because RAW do not cover 3d6 situations. Of course, your proposal is even further off.

rogueeyes wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The double 1s part of POTW does not actually state the power is used successfully.
The base rules state "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test. . ."

1+1+6 on LD 6 or less model is perils and a failed attempt to trigger the effect.

/shrug

But a normal leadership test is taken on 2D6. The codex states Psychic tests are taken on 3D6. This is no longer a normal leadership test. I feel that this would fail because you have to take the entire roll into account ... not a subset. On a subset of double ones I am told by perils of the warp that I can still use the power.

Irrelevant.
The main rules still stand -- the Psychic test must be passed to use the power successfully. The codex says that the psychic test is rolled on 3 dice.
POTW do not state the power is used successfully, just used. The rules for Psychic test state that successful uses require successes.

rogueeyes wrote:

Dracol wrote:

sbeasley wrote:
Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

Last line of the Perils of the Warp paragraph "Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." This is a direct reference to earlier in the paragraph "If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened...."

Logically speaking:
If psyker rolls double 1 (either {1,1} or {1,1,X}
Then psyker will still use his power even if wounded or killed

To be wounded or killed something horrible has to have happened.. which means the result of double 1s on a psychic test is equivalent to a psyker who rolls double 1 no matter the number of dice thrown.

Actually it states the result of double 1 ... not double ones within the set of dice thrown. You are adding information and interpreting this to include all possible rolls of Psychic Tests. This is specifying that even if a Perils of the Warp attack happens a Psyker who has rolled a successful leadership test still uses the power.

According to your logic here I can have a psyker with leadership 7. With Runes of Warding I roll a 1, 1 and a 6 on my 3D6 roll. I have a double 1. Therefore I succeed the test because I can use the double ones and it states in the rulebook that on double ones the power succeeds. This is in direct conflict where the total of the 3D6 must be beneath the leadership of my psyker. OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

"Actually it states the result of double 1" I refer back to the whole paragraph concerning Perils of the Warp in which it uses both "result" and "roll" to refer to the same double 1, which went back to Sbeasley asking where in RAW it states Rolls double 1. Also, this goes back to the argument that a "result" of double 1 can only be obtained on two dice. Since "roll" is also used in the same paragraph to refer to the same situation... then the argument about the double 1 "result" being only available to two dice falls flat because when you roll any number of dice, if two 1's are present within that set then you have "rolled" double 1.

As for your point about a psyker with LD 7.... if you notice I did not state what the third dice came up as (I used X to represent it). This I did to illustrate the point of the double 1 and not to have a full logical display of possible outcomes including whether the result would be successfully cast or not. In you case with {1,1,6} being thrown by a LD 7 psyker... since it does not meet the requirement for passing a psychic test in the first place... seeing if the power is still used even if the psyker is wounded or killed is irrelevant cause the power wouldn't be used even if the psyker was not wounded or killed.

I'll admit that I misread the rule and determined it to read successful. Still I do not believe you can take a subset of the dice for a leadership and apply them.

IMO PotW occur on a 12+ when the Runes are in play. They do not need to add only to the rule because it is giving you when perils of the warp occurs.

A Result can be determined to be a double but the result is a double + a D6 in all circumstances because you CANNOT ignore the third die.

The Runes of Warding state when you take Perils of the Warp attacks. The rulebook relies on 2 dice being rolled. When a third die is added the test, the rulebook for Perils of the Warp breaks. The Codex rectifies this situation when it states that Perils of the Warp occurs on a 12+ roll.

Show me where it states that you can take a subset of dice from a roll that requires multiple dice and split them apart. Melta happens on a 2D6 - these dice are not taken individually - they are a collective roll. When you shot the dice you roll are not a collective roll but are a set of dice that are rolled together signifying multiple events happening simultaneously.

My argument is based on a 2D6 leadership roll being a collective roll whereas rolling 2 sets of D6 such as for shooting are two distinct actions.

We could now have a whole different argument about whether it is even appropriate to group the "results" of a Ld. check into a set, but I am tired of this thread. Good luck with your interpretation, Rogueeyes. If I ever play you, I'll just suggest we roll off before the game to see who's way we'll use.

yeah,
5 pages and people still can't see the basic fact that you can't roll a double with 3 dice...

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
5 pages and people still can't see the basic fact that you can't roll a double with 3 dice...

Panic...

Actually, you can, but hey, don't let that stop you!

BeRzErKeR wrote:We could now have a whole different argument about whether it is even appropriate to group the "results" of a Ld. check into a set, but I am tired of this thread. Good luck with your interpretation, Rogueeyes. If I ever play you, I'll just suggest we roll off before the game to see who's way we'll use.

If we were playing I'd suggest rolling off when it happened. 4+ PotW on on set of 2 ones. Now let's continue gaming. Wait I normally play Tau ... Why does Perils of the Warp matter to me? Oh wait my deamon hunters sometimes take a psychic power ... like once a year, against hordes ...

Panic wrote:Because double 6's means go to jail in monopoly.

It does?

EDIT: Sorry about trolling, gonna add a opinion here, just to make sure I won't be confused to a real troll.

Gwar is right.

Panic wrote:yeah,
5 pages and people still can't see the basic fact that you can't roll a double with 3 dice...

Panic...

Well, that would be true if you were correct. You're not, but don't let that stop you saying things are facts when they aren't!

The result of 3 dice can include doubles, triples and singles.

Yeah,

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

If you roll 3 dice your result is {X}{X}{X}
If at a 'stretch' you count {1}{1}{X} as a 'double 1 and a {X}'
this by RAW does not activate PotW as it looks For {1}{1] or {6}{6}

{1}{1}{X} ≠ {1}{1}

Suffering a perils of the warp normally with 2D6 double 1 or 6 is a 5.556% chance.
Suffering a perils of the warp with Runes in play on 3D6 and rolling 12+ is 37.5%.
Suffering a perils of the warp with Runes in play on 3D6 and rolling 12+ or rolling {1}{1}{X} is 40.3%.

Why are you guys trying to cheat a extra 3% chance of a PotW attack?

Panic...

How is this thread still alive!!??

I have used a WHFB reference earlier in this thread and i will use it again as it is a good example:

In fantasy you suffer a miscast on the roll of double 1. If you roll 1, 3, 4, 1 that is still a miscast . You have a double 1 in there but with a 3 and a 4. Is everyone stupid!!?? Its so obvious!! A double 1 is the same as 2 ones. So for PotW you roll 1,3,1. It contains two 1s which is the same as double 1 therefore a PotW.

Also panic you say RAW looks for a {1}{1} or a {6}{6}. In the result 1,3,1 it can find a double 1, there are two ones which make up a double, and a 3. 1,3,1

Panic wrote: Why are you guys trying to cheat a extra 3% chance of a PotW attack?

Panic...

because, by raw, is entitled to us. A double 1 is a pair of ones (same for 6's), doesn't matter how many dice are rolled ... If the rule was to work as you say then Runes of warding would have to be worded differently and include the word "only" when describing rolling over 12.

Ok then all who are in favour that you suffer a PotW on a rusult of 1,1,x say "AYE!". All who disagree say "NAY!" thereby declaring themselves to be idiots.

AYE!

I think it is statistically higher to get double 1's on 3d6 than 2d6 Should be higher than 2.7% that is what it is normally.

Eldar Own wrote:How is this thread still alive!!??

I have used a WHFB reference earlier in this thread and i will use it again as it is a good example:

In fantasy you suffer a miscast on the roll of double 1. If you roll 1, 3, 4, 1 that is still a miscast . You have a double 1 in there but with a 3 and a 4. Is everyone stupid!!?? Its so obvious!! A double 1 is the same as 2 ones. So for PotW you roll 1,3,1. It contains two 1s which is the same as double 1 therefore a PotW.

Also panic you say RAW looks for a {1}{1} or a {6}{6}. In the result 1,3,1 it can find a double 1, there are two ones which make up a double, and a 3. 1,3,1

Because this is not WHFB. This is 40K. WHFB rules do not apply to 40K and 40K rules do not apply to WHFB. They are distinct game systems even though they are developed by the same developer. For that matter there are problems between one army and another and how things are done within 40K much less referencing WHFB from 40K for examples. This is why your argument does not work.

Eldar Own wrote:How is this thread still alive!!??

I have used a WHFB reference earlier in this thread and i will use it again as it is a good example:

In fantasy you suffer a miscast on the roll of double 1. If you roll 1, 3, 4, 1 that is still a miscast . You have a double 1 in there but with a 3 and a 4. Is everyone stupid!!?? Its so obvious!! A double 1 is the same as 2 ones. So for PotW you roll 1,3,1. It contains two 1s which is the same as double 1 therefore a PotW.

Also panic you say RAW looks for a {1}{1} or a {6}{6}. In the result 1,3,1 it can find a double 1, there are two ones which make up a double, and a 3. 1,3,1

WHFB is not a good example. As it is a completely different game. Might as well try and compare it to Blood Bowl or some other GW game.

rogueeyes wrote:Because this is not WHFB. This is 40K. WHFB rules do not apply to 40K and 40K rules do not apply to WHFB. They are distinct game systems even though they are developed by the same developer. For that matter there are problems between one army and another and how things are done within 40K much less referencing WHFB from 40K for examples. This is why your argument does not work.

How ever with codexs still in play like dark eldar, its clear they do work in a similar manor.

Eldar Own wrote:Ok then all who are in favour that you suffer a PotW on a rusult of 1,1,x say "AYE!". All who disagree say "NAY!" thereby declaring themselves to be idiots.

AYE!

I love it when you call those who disagree with you idiots.

I will thwart your attempt at me self declaring me as an idiot, and say something else and still get my point across

NO!


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Tri wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:Because this is not WHFB. This is 40K. WHFB rules do not apply to 40K and 40K rules do not apply to WHFB. They are distinct game systems even though they are developed by the same developer. For that matter there are problems between one army and another and how things are done within 40K much less referencing WHFB from 40K for examples. This is why your argument does not work.

How ever with codexs still in play like dark eldar, its clear they do work in a similar manor.

And Combat Drugs is not a Leadership Test, so it isn't relavant. Each roll on Combat Drugs is a distinct result, you combine those results to get your double because the rules say to do that.

Not so with Leadership Tests. You look at the whole result.

Psychic tests have their own way of resolving POTW - and these are different from LD checks.

yeah?
Can someone quote the DE rules exactly... From what I Remember the Dark Eldar rule is wrote with the intention of rolling as many dice as you want to risk and comparing each one against the others, looking for a double.

Combat Drugs:
Look at your results... is there a double in there?

PotW
Look at your result. is it a double 1 or double 6?

Panic...

They are trying to say that the psychic test cannot have doubles on three dice because the dice are added together - which makes it different than combat drugs.

This also makes it impossible to roll doubles on two dice, but they ignore that, it seems.

Unless I am missing something - I shall find the wording on the drugs.

---

Combat drugs has you roll a number of dice and using each di(c)e to garner a seperate effect.

Also, if doubles are rolled xxx (a wound is taken) happens.
Also, if triples are rolled yyy (the model is removed) happens.

It is interesting to note that xxx and yyy are not actually exclusionary - both can happen, wounded models can be removed as easily as unwounded ones.

Yeah?
PotW asks for a double 1 or a double 6

{1}{1}{1} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{2} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{3} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{4} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{5} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{6} ≠ {1}{1}

...

{6}{6}{1} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 13 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{2} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 14 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{3} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 15 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{4} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 16 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{5} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 17 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{6} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 18 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack

Panic...

Result of 2, double 1's

6 and half a dozen.

You do realise that {1}{1}{x} is a Double 1 and an X?

Panic wrote:Yeah?
PotW asks for a double 1 or a double 6

{1}{1}{1} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{2} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{3} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{4} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{5} ≠ {1}{1}
{1}{1}{6} ≠ {1}{1}

...

{6}{6}{1} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 13 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{2} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 14 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{3} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 15 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{4} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 16 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{5} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 17 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack
{6}{6}{6} ≠ {6}{6} but this is also a 3d6 result of 18 which Runes of warding says is > 12 and activates a PotW attack

Panic...

Yeah.

kirsanth wrote:You roll 3 dice onto the table.
Does this result in a pair of 1s on the table?
It does not say "only a pair" and the power that causes three dice to be rolled does not even imply it.
Saying "Yes, but. . . " is still saying "Yes". And that is all it requires to trigger potw

@sbeasley: Please refute my fighting point so I know if I can punch you or not

kirsanth wrote:They are trying to say that the psychic test cannot have doubles on three dice because the dice are added together - which makes it different than combat drugs.

This also makes it impossible to roll doubles on two dice, but they ignore that, it seems.

Unless I am missing something - I shall find the wording on the drugs.

2D6 and 1D6 + 1D6 is not the same. The 1D6 + 1D6 is used for shooting, combat drugs, what have you. 2D6 is used for leadership tests. 3D6 is used for runes of warding. The result IS a double is not the same as the result contains a double. If the result is double ones or doubles sixes is not the same as the result contains double ones or double sixes.

Show me where you can take dice that are contained within an XD6 roll where the number of D6 are not unique instances. A leadership roll is a 2D6 roll. Shooting is {1D6} + [1D6} + ... + {1D6}. Each die is individual - as in the dice are not together. This is how you can use rending because the dice are not taking together. Melta is 2D6. You take the 2 dice as a single roll. The result is some number between 2-12. When rolling to hit each die is a 1-6 result for each shot. On a rending roll to wound you get a 1-6 result for EACH shot. Each shot that scores a 6 applies the special rules.

When rolling 3D6 for Runes of Warding it is a 3D6 roll that scores between 3-18. Anything 12 and over is defined as Perils of the Warp. The result CANNOT be double because you have 3 dice that are a set. These 3 dice cannot be broken up. When you roll a normal leadership you have 2 Dice. The result can be a double 1 or double 6 because there are 2 and only 2 dice. You cannot take a subset of this and say that I have a 1 and I also rolled another die that is a 1. you say that I have a pair of 1s. This pair is a double. There are no other dice in that 2D6 roll so the result is a double 1. This roll then applies perils fo the warp.

When rolling the 3D6 you roll 3 dice. The 3 dice roll a 1, 1, and a 3. You have a pair of 1's and a 3. The result is not a double 1. It is a double 1 and a 3. You cannot ignore the 3 because it is a part of the result. Now if you were told to roll three dice and look for a pair of ones within the result or contained within the result then you can say that perils of the warp happens. This is not the case. You are told that Perils of the Warp happens when "the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or a double 6". When I roll 3D6 I get a result of a double 1and a 3. A double is contained within the result of the set but it is not THE result of the set.

Gwar! wrote:You do realise that {1}{1}{x} is a Double 1 and an X?

yeah?
Is that what PotW asks for?
a 'double 1 and a X?'

or does PotW it ask for 'a double 1'

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah?
Is that what PotW asks for?
a 'double 1 and a X?'

or does PotW it ask for 'a double 1'

Panic...

And what did you give it?

A double one! Just because there is an x as well means nothing.

I do entirely understand your points.
I simply do not agree. FYI.


It does not say "contain" and more than runes say "only".

So I can see confusion in either case.
A moot point, as it were.

As for combat drugs, I do not neccessarily agree that there is a correlation, I was pointing out what they said so that others would understand.

@kirsanth: I'm glad you can see our view, as I see where you are getting your logic as well.

I simply do not agree as well.

At least you are civil in the matter. I appreciate that.

Gwar! wrote:

Panic wrote:yeah?
Is that what PotW asks for?
a 'double 1 and a X?'

or does PotW it ask for 'a double 1'

Panic...

And what did you give it?

A double one! Just because there is an x as well means nothing.

Actually on the roll of 3D6 you gave it a double one and an x. It requires that you have the result is a double 1 - not that the result contains a double one but the result is a double one. Therefore since the requirements are not satisfied that you ended up with the result of double 1 then you never invoke the rules of perils of the warp. A 3D6 roll is 3 six-sided dice that create a result of {x,x,x}. Mathematically on a 3D6 this is the smallest set that you can have.

You are required to use 3D6 (because it states that is is a 3D6 roll).
The result is dice 1 = x, dice 2 = x, dice 3 = x. The result is (x,x,x). There are no sub- sets of this except moving the numbers into different positions because the result MUST HAVE 3 dice. This is defined by the 3D6 in the rules. Now in the rulebook to determine if perils of the warp exist you must look at the result and look for double 1s or double 6s. There are no result sets with two dice - the minimum result set has 3 dice. Therefore the rulebook and the codex rules are in conflict with each other and we must use the codex rules since they are more specific. Perils of the warp only occurs on a 12+ result.

Gwar! wrote:A double one! Just because there is an x as well means nothing.

yeah...


GwarHammer:

Perils of the Warp wrote:I Noticed your opponent passing a pschic test there... Did he roll a double 1?

Gwar wrote:yeah he did! He got a double 1... .......and a 3

Perils of the Warp wrote: what was that... and a..?

Gwar wrote:oh nothing... he got a double 1!.. zapp him!!!

That bit there, when you went all quiet... that was you cheating that was...

Panic...

tsk tsk

kirsanth wrote:I do entirely understand your points.
I simply do not agree. FYI.


It does not say "contain" and more than runes say "only".

So I can see confusion in either case.
A moot point, as it were.

As for combat drugs, I do not neccessarily agree that there is a correlation, I was pointing out what they said so that others would understand.

Both sides arguments can be won by adding in words to either codex. If the books were written without flaws there would be no need for a board to argue these points on. And really what fun would that be?

I personally do not agree with your point but I see the argument being made. I just do not agree that you are allowed to take the subset of 2 dice when the roll calls for 3 dice to be rolled as a single test.

I can see a similar argument happening if a gun had both the melta and the rending rules. AFAIK there is no such gun because of the rules headaches it would cause. plus I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever.

rogueeyes wrote:I can see a similar argument happening if a gun had both the melta and the rending rules. AFAIK there is no such gun because of the rules headaches it would cause. plus I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever.

Hive Tyrant with Rending Claws is the closest I can think of.

And they covered that in the Nid FAQ with a surprising answer (aka the rules).

FAQ is not the rule, but GW's house rule. It is an interesting outcome for the double 1 crowd. But we can also look at the FAQ's and Eldar Autarch's reserve roll stacking and IG's Astropath's and/or Officer of the Fleet does not for some reason. Go GW for consistency.

Determining how to roll for a psychic test uses a normal leadership test which is specifically defined as rolling 2D6 dice.

"All enemy Psychic tests must be taken on 3D6, suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above."

This 3D6 is not a leadership test but a psychic test. It replaces the leadership test with a new mechanic, 3D6.

Leadership tests must be taken in order to use the rules that define how Perils of the warp are "determined to have occurred".

Therefore the only way to suffer a Perils of the Warp attack when taking a Psychic test using 3D6 is defined by, "on any roll of 12 or above.


Edit: Just realized you can not fail a psychic test with this definition. So it must be a leadership test. Oh well...

Here is my idea on this. It would fail on any two 1s being rolled, any two 6s being rolled, and any combination of 12 and higher. Here is why:

RAW in Eldar Codex: Does not override the RAW in the main rulebook, as it clearly doesn't say 'instead of', 'in the place of'...etc. So the 12+ is in addition to the main rulebook

RAW in the Main Rulebook: Does still happen because even on multiple dice the 'result' idea to say doubles can't happen...doesn't hold water. Can a 'result of a 1 being rolled' still happen on multiple dice? Yes. Can a double still happen as a result on multiple dice? Yes. My thinking is that a single roll can have multiple results....as each dice and die combination are results. Results doesn't have to mean the sum of all dice, unless it'd say so specifically.

Anybody see a whole in my logic? This is just my 2 cents afterall.

Right lets use this situation:

For some reason you decide to roll youe 3D6 one by one. You roll a 1 then a 1. You may as well stop here becasue you have already rolled a double one so there is no point in rolling die no. 3 as the result of it will not affect anything.

You do the same but you roll a 1 then a 4 then a 1. Some in this thread argue this is not a double 1.But it is. If you had happened to roll them 1, 1, 4. You would have stopped after the second 1 becasue it was double 1. 1, 1, 4 is the same as 1, 4, 1.

Farseer Faenyin wrote:Here is my idea on this. It would fail on any two 1s being rolled, any two 6s being rolled, and any combination of 12 and higher. Here is why:

RAW in Eldar Codex: Does not override the RAW in the main rulebook, as it clearly doesn't say 'instead of', 'in the place of'...etc. So the 12+ is in addition to the main rulebook

RAW in the Main Rulebook: Does still happen because even on multiple dice the 'result' idea to say doubles can't happen...doesn't hold water. Can a 'result of a 1 being rolled' still happen on multiple dice? Yes. Can a double still happen as a result on multiple dice? Yes. My thinking is that a single roll can have multiple results....as each dice and die combination are results. Results doesn't have to mean the sum of all dice, unless it'd say so specifically.

Anybody see a whole in my logic? This is just my 2 cents afterall.

Yes. The Eldar codex says you roll 3D6 instead for Psychic Tests. This is in direct conflict with Psychic Tests from the rulebook where you use 2D6. Thus the Psychic Test rule is clarified in the codex where this causes problems (perils of the warp). Luckily GW figured this out a head of time and gave us the solution to administer the perils of the warp rule on a 12+.

3D6 is the set of 3 dice. This is where the argument lies. Saying 2 out of the 3 causes a rule to take place is invalid because the minimum set you can have as stated by the codex is 3D6. Now if the codex states that you roll 2D6 + D6 you can have doubles because the smallest set you can have is the 2D6 or the 1D6. This is split into 2 distinct sets of 2 dice and 1 die. 3D6 is a set of 3 dice - not every single subset (single die, double die, triple die) of those 3 dice.

In the rulebook you suffer perils of the warp on the result of double ones or double 6s. This is a set of two dice and equates to the set fo 2 dice being rolled for the psychic test. When 2 sets are compared you can equal them out to one another. 2 ones = 2 ones.

Now when you roll a set of 3 dice for the 3D6 you can get 3 ones. The set of 3 ones does not equate to 2 ones. You can say that the set of 2 ones is contained within the set of 2 ones but your result set is still 3 ones. 3 ones <> 2 ones. 3 ones != 2 ones.


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Eldar Own wrote:Right lets use this situation:

For some reason you decide to roll youe 3D6 one by one. You roll a 1 then a 1. You may as well stop here becasue you have already rolled a double one so there is no point in rolling die no. 3 as the result of it will not affect anything.

You do the same but you roll a 1 then a 4 then a 1. Some in this thread argue this is not a double 1.But it is. If you had happened to roll them 1, 1, 4. You would have stopped after the second 1 becasue it was double 1. 1, 1, 4 is the same as 1, 4, 1.

Actually there is still a point in rolling because you are required by the codex to roll 3 dice. Also, you just cheated and passed your leadership test on 2 ones with a leadership of 7 when you could have failed with a roll of 8.

Even if you roll one by one the entire set of 3 rolls are taken as a whole. 3D6 does not mean you roll 2 dice and stop. You roll 3 dice. Whether you roll them one by one or all at once it means you MUST roll 3 dice.

Yes yes, but there is indeed a pair of 1s rolled - you keep using "set" which the rules do not. You also rolled a 1, three ones, and a total of 3.

Can someone add something useful now, please?

kirsanth wrote:Yes yes, but there is indeed a pair of 1s rolled - you keep using "set" which the rules do not.

Can someone add something useful now, please?

What does 3D6 mean? The sum of 3 Dice. This is a set. A set of 3 Dice. This is a basic mathematical principle.

Then perils can never apply without the Eldar codex.
This is patently not true.

kirsanth wrote:Then perils can never apply without the Eldar codex.
This is patently not true.

Page 2 of the Rulebook:

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score of between 2-12.

By RAW you roll 3 dice. The scores are added together. The result is 1 dice with a 1, a second dice with a 1 and a third dice with a random number that may or may not make you fail the test. The result is 2 ones and a number from 1-6. The set is {1,1,x}. When you are told that you must roll 3D6 you roll 3 dice. This is your set that is created and added together to create your result of dice 1 + dice 2 + dice 3 = sum.

According to the codex if your sum > 12 you suffer perils.

On 2D6 you have have the result set of {1,1}. This is a double. It is a pair. It is a set of 2 numbers and a double is a set of 2. On 3D6 you can only have the result set of {1,1,x}. The set of {1,1,x} cannot be a double because a double is a pair or set of 2. Three numbers is not 2 numbers. You can have a triple because a triple is a set of 3 numbers.

rogueeyes wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:Right lets use this situation:

For some reason you decide to roll youe 3D6 one by one. You roll a 1 then a 1. You may as well stop here becasue you have already rolled a double one so there is no point in rolling die no. 3 as the result of it will not affect anything.

You do the same but you roll a 1 then a 4 then a 1. Some in this thread argue this is not a double 1.But it is. If you had happened to roll them 1, 1, 4. You would have stopped after the second 1 becasue it was double 1. 1, 1, 4 is the same as 1, 4, 1.

Actually there is still a point in rolling because you are required by the codex to roll 3 dice. Also, you just cheated and passed your leadership test on 2 ones with a leadership of 7 when you could have failed with a roll of 8.

Even if you roll one by one the entire set of 3 rolls are taken as a whole. 3D6 does not mean you roll 2 dice and stop. You roll 3 dice. Whether you roll them one by one or all at once it means you MUST roll 3 dice.

Yes it says roll 3 dice and you could fail your LD test but i was refering to PotW. Whatever your third result is you still take a PotW. Others were saying that 1, 1, 4 does not contain a double one so if you rolled a double 1 first you know you have a double 1 and the next result would not a ffect PotW.

rogueeyes wrote:What does 3D6 mean? The sum of 3 Dice. This is a set. A set of 3 Dice. This is a basic mathematical principle.

A sum of three dice and a set of three dice are each used for different purposes.
Much like the sum of the roll is used to check against LD (and against 12 with the Eldar power) and the dice themselves are used to look for a pair.

Seriously there is something in the rules that doesn't work. Oh Noes!! How many times has GW done this. Tons. That's why there is the INATFAQ and house rules on how it should be generally played. IMO by RAW double 1 can never be "the result" as a Leadership Test already defined "the result" as the sum of the dice. Is that how the general community plays, or me for that fact. No it isn't. We interpret that a sum of 2 is the same as double 1. The contention is that does the result {1, 1, 3} or {5} equate to a double 1. Obviously not. Does it contain a double 1 within the result. Sure it does. Does it apply. That is where the confusion sets in. Some say yes, some say no. Some people are mean about it, others are not. I think there is enough general debate over semantics that it should probably be included in the next INATFAQ, since we will probably never see a ruling from GW on the matter.

The group I play with uses the INATFAQ for rules debates, if it isn't in there we 4+ it. If a ruling is made I'm happy either way. If it goes against me. My army just got a bit better. If it doesn't my ego gets a boost. So a Win Win for me.

yeah,
I think that's this over...
There will be no agreement between the 'sides' here..

I think it's obvious...
{1}{1}{X} ≠ {1}{1}

Panic...

Double 1 is generally used for bad things like PotW so if the result has a double 1 (which is unlucky and bad) it is PotW. The reason why Runes of Warding is good becasue it increases the chance of PotW not becasue its easier to get 12+ but becasu eits easier to get two 1s.

Locking to avoid the inevitable flamewar. It looks like empasse at this point.


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