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Post by: Kilkrazy
I didn't want to bring the coffee shop shootings up because it seemed too sad.
It would save a trial.
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Post by: BrookM
A sad, sad thing indeed.
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Post by: Howlingmoon
This has me wondering just WTH is going on in Seattle. It wasn't too long ago that some guy walked up to a cop and wasted him in the middle of the street.
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Post by: sexiest_hero
Cops have built up a bad rep, and are the easy targets of percived power abuse. Somebody with a grudge against cops can do bad things.
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Post by: Beowulfen
Or try to excuse the Arkansas govn. that gave the guy clemency. Grr!
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Post by: Frazzled
I actually thought it was a cartel hit or hit to send a message before this story popped up. I am a bit surprised.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Murdering, child raping, cop killer, surrounded by a SWAT team?
Say goodnight. Some .223 is going to find its way into his skull.
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Post by: sebster
Beowulfen wrote:Or try to excuse the Arkansas govn. that gave the guy clemency. Grr!
Yeah, I never would have thought granting clemency to a guy would be the thing to sink Huckabee.
Meanwhile, my heart goes out to the friends and family of the officers. It's one thing to lose someone you love in an act of violence, it's another entirely to lose them in such a senseless act.
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Post by: Frazzled
sebster wrote:
Meanwhile, my heart goes out to the friends and family of the officers. It's one thing to lose someone you love in an act of violence, it's another entirely to lose them in such a senseless act.
Word
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Post by: Mannahnin
Seconded.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
sexiest_hero wrote:Cops have built up a bad rep, and are the easy targets of percived power abuse.
Somebody with a grudge against cops can do bad things.
Well, they're not good guys like firefighters who you can see saving your house. Or doctors who actually do something to actively make you better when you're sick. Or even the phone monkey who can cut you a break on a late fee to put a little cash back in your pocket. For the most part, cops have a deservedly bad rep just based on the nature of their job. They're giving $100+ tickets for going the same speed as everybody else, and nobody likes that. Plus, cops have been actually known to abuse their power. That's easily seen when minorities get profiled and arrested. I actually know a guy who was arrested and beaten by cops - was the wrong guy to have been stopped, and ultimately won damages for the abuse. That's BS that nobody should have to stand for. And by protecting their own against valid citizen complaints or investigations, well, that's tacit approval of power abuse by one and all. In this particular case, somebody with a grudge *did* do bad things. Bad things which were preventable. He was behind bars, but was paroled by some slow. ____ @Altered Soul: At this point, Clemmons has no choice but to take as many cops down as he can - they're going to kill him, that's for sure. The only way he lives to see trial is if he can get to the FBI before the police get to him.
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Post by: BrookM
He fething got away?  Manhunt and ten to one he's not brought in alive.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The suspect is surrounded in a house and is thought may already have died from a wound inflicted by one of his victims.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I don't see the FBI taking him in alive either, at this point.
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Post by: Cane
Yeesh and right at the holiday season to boot.
Hope justice is served quickly and harshly.
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Post by: jp400
Lets send in the robot with a live feed into the house. If he is inside.... Then throw a smoke/ CS nade onto the sofa and end this already.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Am I morbid for noting that this all sounds very similar to the John Wilkes Boothe Lincoln assassination? He'll likely end up the same way too. Deserves as much.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kanluwen wrote:I don't see the FBI taking him in alive either, at this point.
With the FBI, he's got a 50-50 chance of living to trial. With the police - he's 100% guaranteed to die before trial. Which odds would you take?
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Post by: jp400
No, this fether needs to die a very slow and painfull death.
I honestly think that some old school frontier justice is whats needed in this case.
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Post by: Frazzled
Its not a federal issue. Why would the FBI be involved?
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Post by: Kanluwen
The assumption with the FBI is that the(hereby referred to ONLY as) dumbass would prefer to take his chances of getting to trial by turning himself in to the FBI.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I take it that you don't support the 8th amendment to the Constitution.
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Post by: jp400
KK,
The second this fether shot 4 cops in cold blood he gave up his rights.
Hell I would shoot the fether myself if they would let me.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kanluwen wrote:The assumption with the FBI is that the(hereby referred to ONLY as) dumbass would prefer to take his chances
of getting to trial by turning himself in to the FBI.
Exactly. Pretty much anything else ends with a bullet in the brainpan. ____ @Fraz - if he can make it to the Oregon border, the FBI is automatically involved.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Kilkrazy wrote:I take it that you don't support the 8th amendment to the Constitution.
What does
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
have to do with anything?
He's a wanted criminal, has a criminal record, and just shot four law enforcement officers for no apparent reason.
He hasn't been arrested, so there's no excessive bail or fines being imposed. He hasn't been charged with the crimes, so there's no cruel and unusual punishments being inflicted.
There's just him on the run from LEOs who can say that he "was reaching for a weapon" and have a nice, neatly wrapped up justifiable police shooting.
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Post by: Da Boss
That's pretty horrifying. My da was a policeman, and something like that happening was always the worst nightmare.
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Post by: Empchild
JohnHwangDD wrote:sexiest_hero wrote:Cops have built up a bad rep, and are the easy targets of percived power abuse.
Somebody with a grudge against cops can do bad things.
Well, they're not good guys like firefighters who you can see saving your house. Or doctors who actually do something to actively make you better when you're sick. Or even the phone monkey who can cut you a break on a late fee to put a little cash back in your pocket.
For the most part, cops have a deservedly bad rep just based on the nature of their job. They're giving $100+ tickets for going the same speed as everybody else, and nobody likes that. Plus, cops have been actually known to abuse their power. That's easily seen when minorities get profiled and arrested. I actually know a guy who was arrested and beaten by cops - was the wrong guy to have been stopped, and ultimately won damages for the abuse. That's BS that nobody should have to stand for. And by protecting their own against valid citizen complaints or investigations, well, that's tacit approval of power abuse by one and all.
In this particular case, somebody with a grudge *did* do bad things.
Bad things which were preventable. He was behind bars, but was paroled by some slow.
____
@Altered Soul: At this point, Clemmons has no choice but to take as many cops down as he can - they're going to kill him, that's for sure.
The only way he lives to see trial is if he can get to the FBI before the police get to him.
He deserves to die honestly, but sadly the news announced he wasn't in the house. I used to live in the town where this incident happend, and I have a lot of buddies form the army who went into the lakewood PD. These people are enforcing OUR laws. Weather you like it or not every day citizens voted all of these laws at one point or time into existance and tasked these brave men and women with enforcing them. I have gotten a $100.00 speeding ticket before, and when pulled over the cop asked me if I knew what I did, I said i'm guessing I was speeding. I was and you know what I thanked him for doing his job paid the ticket without a single grip, and said well I was the one who broke the law not the cop. I just got caught doing it and as a man would accepted my punishment. If you bitch and grip about cops you honestly are stupid as you know what you broke the law not them. They are just protecting the people who aren't breaking the law. No cop deserves what these four got, and it saddens me immensely and wish nothing more then to have this baby(he's no man) with the teardrop on his eye strug up and then be tortured by the families of the four victims as he deserves it in my opinon. He took away parents, I mean has anyone read about how many children each of them had.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Kanluwen wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I take it that you don't support the 8th amendment to the Constitution.
What does
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
have to do with anything?
He's a wanted criminal, has a criminal record, and just shot four law enforcement officers for no apparent reason.
He hasn't been arrested, so there's no excessive bail or fines being imposed. He hasn't been charged with the crimes, so there's no cruel and unusual punishments being inflicted.
There's just him on the run from LEOs who can say that he "was reaching for a weapon" and have a nice, neatly wrapped up justifiable police shooting.
It has to do with him being put to a very painful, lingering death, which was suggested by jp400.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
He hasn't been charged with the crimes, so there's no cruel and unusual punishments being inflicted.
That technically makes it an extrajudicial killing, and possible manslaughter or murder. I think his point is that people in these threads tend to get their jollies from the bloodsport of the spectacle and completely debase the concepts of justice law enforcement. Deny legal proceedings and you deny what it is that makes our method of law enforcement work.
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Post by: Empchild
He deserves to die honestly, but sadly the news announced he wasn't in the house. I used to live in the town where this incident happend, and I have a lot of buddies form the army who went into the lakewood PD. These people are enforcing OUR laws. Weather you like it or not every day citizens voted all of these laws at one point or time into existance and tasked these brave men and women with enforcing them. I have gotten a $100.00 speeding ticket before, and when pulled over the cop asked me if I knew what I did, I said i'm guessing I was speeding. I was and you know what I thanked him for doing his job paid the ticket without a single grip, and said well I was the one who broke the law not the cop. I just got caught doing it and as a man would accepted my punishment. If you bitch and grip about cops you honestly are stupid as you know what you broke the law not them. They are just protecting the people who aren't breaking the law. No cop deserves what these four got, and it saddens me immensely and wish nothing more then to have this baby(he's no man) with the teardrop on his eye strug up and then be tortured by the families of the four victims as he deserves it in my opinon. He took away parents, I mean has anyone read about how many children each of them had.
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Post by: jp400
Im not suggesting anything... Im flat out saying this guy needs a slow pain filled death.
Beat him, stab him, let him burn to death I care not. So long as he suffers before he expires.
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Post by: Kanluwen
True. But there comes a time where you have to also realize that law enforcement officers are people too, and that always seems to be glossed over in these sorts of threads too.
But I digress. The moment he shot four officers in cold blood, he signed his own death warrant either way. I'm just waiting to see his family and the anti-police goon squad we have here on Dakka start clamoring that he's just "misunderstood" or that the officers drew on him first.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That comment was @ Shuma. Too many posts between the two can be bad.
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Post by: jp400
Or that the the police brought it upon themselfs and that they are over reacting to this misguided mans actions, and that the 4th cop should have waited for paramedics to assess his 3 buddies vitals before he reacted to the shooter, cause he couldnt be REALLY SURE of his intent to inflict harm upon them.
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Post by: Da Boss
In cases like this I prefer things to be done by the book because the system those cops stood and died for must be shown to work.
I share people's disgust and anger but I would hope that we are above all that as a society.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jp400 wrote:Or that the the police brought it upon themselfs and that they are over reacting to this misguided mans actions, and that the 4th cop should have waited for paramedics to assess his 3 buddies vitals before he reacted to the shooter, cause he couldnt be REALLY SURE of his intent to inflict harm upon them.
Or perhaps that he should be dealt with in accordance with the laws of the United States of America.
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Post by: jp400
The only law that applies here is the Colt and Smith & Wesson Act of 1800!
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Post by: Da Boss
That's what the guy that shot those cops thought, too.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
True. But there comes a time where you have to also realize that law enforcement officers are people too, and that always seems to be glossed over in these sorts of threads too.
Tell that to JP, who I can only assume would love to tear the dudes throat out with his own teeth. The anti police goon squad only show up in reaction to the "KILL EVERYONE WITHOUT A TRIAL" squad. Not that I'm in either, I just wish you people had more respect for the laws you live under. Just because he's suspected of breaking the law doesn't mean judge dredd gets to put a bullet in his face. The severity of the infraction is meaningless, it's the laws duty to detain and try all those suspected of committing a crime. Should a jury of their peers find them guilty then a judge provides a sentence fitting the severity of the crime.
When you cut out all that and just throw in "kill him before the trial" every time one of these fething threads come up you just look like a bloodthirsty child.
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Post by: Kanluwen
No, he thought he was Jesus, that the world was going to end and enjoyed forcing his wife and younger relatives to undress in front of him.
There's no way this goes to a serious trial, if only because if they bring him in he'd be able to get off on disease/mental defect.
Hell, he already got pardoned in 2003 because of his "young age when he committed the crime".
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Post by: Frazzled
jp400 wrote:The only law that applies here is the Colt and Smith & Wesson Act of 1800!
Commonly known as the Peacemaker Act?
Everyone's following the law but the BG here. As noted I think there are reports said BG wasn't in the house.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Da Boss wrote:That's what the guy that shot those cops thought, too.
Probably not. Its hard to get a good Colt these days.
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Post by: Kanluwen
ShumaGorath wrote:True. But there comes a time where you have to also realize that law enforcement officers are people too, and that always seems to be glossed over in these sorts of threads too.
Tell that to JP, who I can only assume would love to tear the dudes throat out with his own teeth. The anti police goon squad only show up in reaction to the "KILL EVERYONE WITHOUT A TRIAL" squad. Not that I'm in either, I just wish you people had more respect for the laws you live under. Just because he's suspected of breaking the law doesn't mean judge dredd gets to put a bullet in his face. The severity of the infraction is meaningless, it's the laws duty to detain and try all those suspected of committing a crime. Should a jury of their peers find them guilty then a judge provides a sentence fitting the severity of the crime.
When you cut out all that and just throw in "kill him before the trial" every time one of these fething threads come up you just look like a bloodthirsty child.
Once again:
Nobody's saying kill him before the trial.
Most of us are saying he WILL be killed before the trial. Either by justifiable police homicide, bleeding out from his wounds, or "justifiable" police homicide.
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Post by: Da Boss
The rest of us are just saying we'd rather that didn't happen and the system did it's job for once.
Idealists vs realists maybe?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Except in this case the system already hasn't done its job. The guy should have been sitting in prison, but hey. He was just too young when he had his first sentencing.
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Post by: Da Boss
I know, believe me it pisses me off too. I'd like for them to get it RIGHT for once, give us a good justice story to look at.
Goddamn judges piss me off. My da could tell you some stories that'd make your blood boil.
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Post by: Frazzled
Da Boss wrote:The rest of us are just saying we'd rather that didn't happen and the system did it's job for once.
Idealists vs realists maybe?
Whats the problem here? That is the system.
He is a fugitive. His past history indicates overwhelmingly this will end in a shoot out. If he does not resist, if he turns himself in, then he's not going to be shot. But because he is now "suspected" with winning a shootout with FOUR COPS then all other law enforcement are going to come for him with guns drawn and safeties off, presuming a firefight, as is painfully reasonable in these circumstances. If he wants this to end peacfully he will have to take extra care )That whole presumed armed and dangerous). Whats the issue here?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kanluwen wrote:Nobody's saying kill him before the trial.
Most of us are saying he WILL be killed before the trial.
Either by justifiable police homicide, bleeding out from his wounds, or "justifiable" police homicide.
I'm going with the last, with "justifiable" being an absolute mockery of the word.
He'll be shot dead with a hot gun planted in his hand if the cops have to... Automatically Appended Next Post: Frazzled wrote:He is a fugitive. His past history indicates overwhelmingly this will end in a shoot out. If he does not resist, if he turns himself in, then he's not going to be shot. But because he is now "suspected" with winning a shootout with FOUR COPS then all other law enforcement are going to come for him with guns drawn and safeties off, presuming a firefight, as is painfully reasonable in these circumstances. If he wants this to end peacfully he will have to take extra care )That whole presumed armed and dangerous). Whats the issue here?
Of course, it's entirely possible the police will finger the wrong guy and rush to judgement with the cameras off.
Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last.
I'd just hate to be a black guy anywhere in Washington state right now.
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Post by: Da Boss
Oh, if he tries to fight by all means shoot him. If he surrenders, then he surrenders. I doubt he will, as it seems he's a mental case. So yeah, he'll probably get shot. It would be better if that didn't have to happen though, not least because there's less risk to innocent policemen that way.
I may be a pansy liberal, but I'm not THAT much of a pansy liberal.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Nobody's saying kill him before the trial.
I'm pretty sure JP400 is, though most of my posts are basically roundabout responses to him, sorry if they seem to paint the whole thread. The threads been pretty civil so far, with the exception of all the flamebaiting at the "anti police goon squad" which I'm still fairly certain doesn't exist.
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Post by: BrookM
@ Da Boss: Easy sport, if I want boiling blood I'd bed a psyker.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I doubt they'll have to plant it, but eh.
I'm just hoping nobody else gets killed because of this nutter, the last reports having put him in the vicinity of a college campus are...worrying to say the least, and with an armed and delusional suspect it could end very badly.
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Post by: BrookM
I've seen an officer give a quick statement on TV about how the bad guy wasn't in his house any more. You could see that he was furious and frustrated. Most if not all of the involved cops on the case are probably feeling that way.
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Post by: Frazzled
I don't think so. I don't think that would be required. If he even blinks funny thats a justifiable shoot at this point. His best luck really is to get cornered so that there's lots of people and he can agree to come out with his hands up in a clam manner with the police also in a calm manner.
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Post by: jp400
ShumaGorath wrote:True. But there comes a time where you have to also realize that law enforcement officers are people too, and that always seems to be glossed over in these sorts of threads too.
Tell that to JP, who I can only assume would love to tear the dudes throat out with his own teeth. The anti police goon squad only show up in reaction to the "KILL EVERYONE WITHOUT A TRIAL" squad. Not that I'm in either, I just wish you people had more respect for the laws you live under. the law doesn't mean judge dredd gets to put a bullet in his face. The severity of the infraction is meaningless, it's the laws duty to detain and try all those suspected of committing a crime. Should a jury of their peers find them guilty then a judge provides a sentence fitting the severity of the crime.
When you cut out all that and just throw in "kill him before the trial" every time one of these fething threads come up you just look like a bloodthirsty child.
Sigh,
Yes. I would love to kill this guy. Put a mossberg 500 in his mouth without a choke and pull the trigger. He is scum and does not deserve to live the rest of his days in a padded cell on a funny farm somewhere after killing 4 cops in cold blood.
Did anyone here say "kill everyone without a trial?" No. So I kindly ask that you stop putting words in other peoples mouths and zip it.
Do I respect the laws? Yes.
Do I feel that this guy should be tried by them? No. He gave up his rights the second he killed 4 cops. 4 cops.... Dead.... blown away sitting in a coffee shop typeing away...
So now we are "You people".... funny that.
"Just because he's suspected of breaking the law doesn't mean judge dredd gets to put a bullet in his face. The severity of the infraction is meaningless..." Im sorry Shuma, cannot hear you over the sound of the 4 dead policemen, and the families crying out for justice. Perhaps you should tell that to them face to face that the killers actions were meaningless.
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Post by: Frazzled
jp400 wrote:
Sigh,
Yes. I would love to kill this guy. Put a mossberg 500 in his mouth without a choke and pull the trigger.
Sigh myself
Son you don't treat a quality firearm like a Mossberg like that, what do you think it is, a Llama? 
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Post by: jp400
I was thinking more a marketing promo for em.
Mossberg!
The gun that won the west!
Er...wait.
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Post by: Da Boss
A crime is a crime, you don't get to throw the system out the window because it is heinous. And no one is gonna complain if the guy refuses to surrender and gets shot. Hell, to be honest I could understand him getting shot before he has a chance too, what I'm saying is I hope that doesn't happen.
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Post by: jp400
Oh and P.S Frazz,
You can get a good quality Colt these days! You have seen the proof already via Pm! 
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Did anyone here say "kill everyone without a trial?" No. So I kindly ask that you stop putting words in other peoples mouths and zip it.
Yes. I would love to kill this guy. Put a mossberg 500 in his mouth without a choke and pull the trigger. He is scum and does not deserve to live the rest of his days in a padded cell on a funny farm somewhere after killing 4 cops in cold blood.
Wat?
Do I respect the laws? Yes.
Do I feel that this guy should be tried by them? No. He gave up his rights the second he killed 4 cops. 4 cops.... Dead.... blown away sitting in a coffee shop typeing away...
You conflict yourself better than any person I've ever seen.
Im sorry Shuma, cannot hear you over the sound of the 4 dead policemen, and the families crying out for justice.
You can hear the dead?
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Post by: Frazzled
jp400 wrote:I was thinking more a marketing promo for em.
Mossberg!
The gun that won the west!
Er...wait.
I just can't justify that sort of use for a fine American fierarm I'd like to have if someone gave me one. Its just...wrong... 
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Post by: jp400
And Shuma just won the "I can't read sarcasm" award!
*GolfClap*
**Sigh**
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Post by: Frazzled
Modquisition timeout. A reminder lets all be mellow to fellow posters. No one's crossed that line yet so lets keep it that way please.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
jp400 wrote:And Shuma just won the "I can't read sarcasm" award!
*GolfClap*
**Sigh**
Sarcasm doesn't have a special font, it just looks like everything else you type, which in your case is pretty wacky sometimes, it's hard to pull out.
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Post by: jp400
The only thing that hard for you to pull out I think is your head from your 4th point of contact.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Teeheehee.
Pull out.
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Post by: Frazzled
ONE MORE TIME.
CEASEFIRE SHUMA/JP400. You can attack each other's arguments and lack of fashion sense, but not other posters directly.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Also:
says chill out.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Kanluwen wrote:Teeheehee.
Pull out.
Yeah I saw that before hitting the submit button. I kept it in. 
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Post by: Kanluwen
Also, Frazz: I saw you're using my Russian Bear photo for locking threads.
I swooned a little.
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Post by: Frazzled
yes special threads deserve that special pic. Thanks again bigK.
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Post by: Hawkins
[quote=JohnHwangDD Cops have built up a bad rep, and are the easy targets of percived power abuse.
Well, they're not good guys like firefighters who you can see saving your house. Or doctors who actually do something to actively make you better when you're sick. Or even the phone monkey who can cut you a break on a late fee to put a little cash back in your pocket.
.
Every time i hear this type of statement i think its sad that in essence its all too true.
But then i think back to 9-11 and all the police fire fighters and what have you that died doing their jobs.
And i remember that even though holywood has a bad cop in every 3rd movie, and we hear about corruption and crime by police everywhere, they are still in my eyes heros, just like the fire fighter, just like the EMTs.
I feel sorry for the families of the four lawenforcement officers killed.
Lets hope the bastard gets the justice alot of us feel he deserves  
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Da Boss wrote:Oh, if he tries to fight by all means shoot him.
Unless there is incontrovertible (video and witnessed) proof that he's not fighting, he will be shot, and the police will report that he fought and resisted and they had to "justifably" shoot (i.e. murder) the suspect. That's how we do things in the USA!
____
Kanluwen wrote:I doubt they'll have to plant it, but eh.
I'm just hoping nobody else gets killed because of this nutter, the last reports having put him in the vicinity of a college campus are...worrying to say the least, and with an armed and delusional suspect it could end very badly.
It'll end badly for at least one black guy... Hopefully, only the guy the cops have fingered, and hopefully, he's actually guilty of what he's going to be kille for.
But it's entirely possible that he's ditched the gun, so one of the cops will simply plant it as a matter of course.
____
Frazzled wrote:If he even blinks funny thats a justifiable shoot at this point.
His best luck really is to get cornered so that there's lots of people and he can agree to come out with his hands up in a clam manner with the police also in a calm manner.
You forgot to put "justifiable" in quotes, because we all know the cops are going to murder the guy and hide behind their badges.
The only crowd that's going to save him is one with Gates on his left and Farrakhan on his right, with CBS news covering the whole thing.
____
BrookM wrote:I've seen an officer give a quick statement on TV about how the bad guy wasn't in his house any more. You could see that he was furious and frustrated. Most if not all of the involved cops on the case are probably feeling that way.
Of course they are. If he was alone in the house, they could have shot him dead without any cameras or witnesses and completely swept the murder under the rug.
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Post by: Kanluwen
You do realize that the media was all over their asses at the house in question right?
There's no way they could have pulled off what you're talking about, outside of killing the media members too.
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Post by: Frazzled
Frazzled wrote:If he even blinks funny thats a justifiable shoot at this point.
His best luck really is to get cornered so that there's lots of people and he can agree to come out with his hands up in a clam manner with the police also in a calm manner.
You forgot to put "justifiable" in quotes, because we all know the cops are going to murder the guy and hide behind their badges.
The only crowd that's going to save him is one with Gates on his left and Farrakhan on his right, with CBS news covering the whole thing.
Respectfully, thats bull t. I've seen the police pull in cop killers in that past. If Texas cops can do it Washington cops can do it.
We do not "all know the cops are going to murder the guy." Thats your opinion only.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Before anyone does any murdering or arresting they need to catch the guy first.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
JohnHwangDD wrote:You forgot to put "justifiable" in quotes, because we all know the cops are going to murder the guy and hide behind their badges.
The only crowd that's going to save him is one with Gates on his left and Farrakhan on his right, with CBS news covering the whole thing.
Geez... those bad, bad policemen trying to get this poor innocent misunderstood soul. I bet they just want to kill him because he's black. Has nothing to do with him gunning down four duly sworn and appointed Officers of the Law, nope.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Kaneluwen: Can cameras see thru walls? Nope.
"Blam-Blam Blam-Blam-Blam-Blam-Blam-Blam Blam-Blam-Blam"
"he was going for his gun, and we had no choice..."
____
@Fraz: I have no problem whatsoever with cops murdering a cop killer. In fact, I"m all for it. What goes around, comes around. And it saves the good taxpayers money.
I just don't like pretending that it's ever actually justified without seeing incontrovertible evidence. Particularly when it's a black guy accused of killing white cops. Whenever I see that, I think "lynch mob with badges"
____
@Git: has it been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of his peers that he's actually the triggerman?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Except you have the entire cafe, cameras outside, etc saying that he walked up to them. You have the forensics showing, once again, that it was an ambush.
And I'd wager more than a few of the news crews could have gotten their hands on thermal imaging cameras. Hell, if I can do it...I'd bet some crazy media folk could.
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Post by: Frazzled
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Kaneluwen: Can cameras see thru walls? Nope.
"Blam-Blam Blam-Blam-Blam-Blam-Blam-Blam Blam-Blam-Blam"
"he was going for his gun, and we had no choice..."
____
@Fraz: I have no problem whatsoever with cops murdering a cop killer. In fact, I"m all for it. What goes around, comes around. And it saves the good taxpayers money.
I just don't like pretending that it's ever actually justified without seeing incontrovertible evidence. Particularly when it's a black guy accused of killing white cops. Whenever I see that, I think "lynch mob with badges"
____
@Git: has it been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of his peers that he's actually the triggerman?
I do and again I am saying thats your opinion. I will not agree. Many cops will want that-they are people too (unless someone gives me a ticket then arghhh!!!). But I am not going to go there and say they are going to do that, that their professionalism will sway their understandable human emotion here.
Course I am a bag of contradictions believing the phrase "there's no justice, just us."
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Fraz: Yeah, I know how it is.
I hope they get the guy who actually did it, and I hope that guy fries for it.
I also hope that they don't also get caught up and nail the wrong guy just because he happens to be black.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Kanluwen wrote:Except you have the entire cafe, cameras outside, etc saying that he walked up to them. You have the forensics showing, once again, that it was an ambush.
And I'd wager more than a few of the news crews could have gotten their hands on thermal imaging cameras. Hell, if I can do it...I'd bet some crazy media folk could.
It shouldn't be too hard to secure a conviction, then.
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Post by: Frazzled
JohnHwangDD wrote:
I also hope that they don't also get caught up and nail the wrong guy just because he happens to be black.
I agree with that, at all times.
If he's plaid though, all bets are off. Plaid people probably eat Haggis.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Kilkrazy wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Except you have the entire cafe, cameras outside, etc saying that he walked up to them. You have the forensics showing, once again, that it was an ambush.
And I'd wager more than a few of the news crews could have gotten their hands on thermal imaging cameras. Hell, if I can do it...I'd bet some crazy media folk could.
It shouldn't be too hard to secure a conviction, then.
You'd think so, but then you have the disease/mental defect issue coming in, along with the jury contamination, and I doubt you'd be able to find ANY judge in Washington state that's impartial enough to hear the case.
I'd rather not see him get off on a technicality. That already has happened. Look how well that ended, eh?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
They are your laws. If you think they are wrong, campaign to change them.
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Post by: Mannahnin
He didn't get off on a technicality previously. His sentence was commuted by a governor/preacher with a misplaced (in this case) sense of Christian mercy.
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Post by: Kanluwen
"He had a lengthy prison sentence commuted in 2000 by former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who cited Clemmons' youth."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,577845,00.html?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a4:g4:r1:c0.000000:b0:z5
Technicality. He had a 100 year sentence commuted to 47 years, a few months and days, which then made him eligible for parole.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The good thing about this is that Huckabee is now unelectable, having committed a Dukakis.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Also, ladies and gentlemen...
It's now premeditated. One of his close relatives told investigators that he would "be on the news tommorow" the day before the shooting.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
How often does a shooter take a gun to a place and shoot a load of people without any forethought?
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Post by: Frazzled
Kilkrazy wrote:How often does a shooter take a gun to a place and shoot a load of people without any forethought?
Crminals often have firearms. premeditaiton means he took the gun to shoot a lot of people, or even more specifically cops.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Frazzled wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:How often does a shooter take a gun to a place and shoot a load of people without any forethought?
Crminals often have firearms. premeditaiton means he took the gun to shoot a lot of people, or even more specifically cops.
Of course he did! That was obvious from the beginning.
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Post by: mstersmith
I really hope is not taken alive. If he is fine, I am sure we will get a conviction but I seriously doupt we will see any justice for the familys of the deseased. That was an abush, the cops had no time to react. Even with close combat training you would be extremely hard pressed to recover from an assault of that magnatude. I do wounder what type of crappy body armor if any the cops were wearing? You would think the day of showing bravado by not wearing it would be a thing of the past.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Kilkrazy wrote:How often does a shooter take a gun to a place and shoot a load of people without any forethought?
Like Frazzled said, there's different types of murder.
Premeditated means it wasn't a heat of the moment, emotional reaction. With the statement "I'll be on the news tomorrow", it means that he clearly was going to do SOMETHING, and he had given it forethought. Automatically Appended Next Post: It also means there's now even less of a reason for the police to try to bring him in alive, since again--he could get off on a mental disease/defect defense.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Frazz and Kanluwen, I think you are completely missing KKs point, which is that it has been obvious that the bastard had the intention of killing someone, and therefore it was premeditated. Its been kind of obvious. His point was you don't just walk into a place and execute four police officers with a loaded weapon on a whim.
Either way, I am all for the real murderer to get a stray bullet, but the reason our system is in place is to make sure we get the right bastard in the first place. The details are still fuzzy as of right now, which is why they didn't just set the place on fire when they thought they had the SOB cornered.
Either way, the killer is loose, armed, and obviously intent on killing our brave officers. Let's just hope they stop the suspect before he gets to taking hostages.
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Post by: Frazzled
Altered_Soul wrote:Frazz and Kanluwen, I think you are completely missing KKs point, which is that it has been obvious that the bastard had the intention of killing someone, and therefore it was premeditated. Its been kind of obvious. His point was you don't just walk into a place and execute four police officers with a loaded weapon on a whim.
Either way, I am all for the real murderer to get a stray bullet, but the reason our system is in place is to make sure we get the right bastard in the first place. The details are still fuzzy as of right now, which is why they didn't just set the place on fire when they thought they had the SOB cornered.
Either way, the killer is loose, armed, and obviously intent on killing our brave officers. Let's just hope they stop the suspect before he gets to taking hostages.
No I am not missing it. I am saying that "Premeditation" is not the same as the act. We now have evidence of "Premeditation" which helps confirm the ""Capital" nature of this crime which means in Texas he would get the "needle," but I don't know about Washington, because people on the West Coast are "Lenient" but they pobably use less of these "" when they "Post." 
My post was so strange even I didn't get it. 
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Well, speaking for KK, I think we are arguing over the same point. He was somewhat snarkily saying that its been obvious that it was premeditated due to the act itself. In other words, he was saying: "No feces Sherlock!".
In other news, just to clear something up, the current suspect has not been proven to be killer, and the authorities haven't given any evidence, yet.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_officers_shot;_ylt=AsVt5NHV7lpUnewlU47gsKys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNoa2dvdHNkBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMTMwL3VzX29mZmljZXJzX3Nob3QEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMzBHBvcwMxMARwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDc3VzcGVjdGlub2Zm
The dude is still a dangerous person, but lets just hope they are closing in on the correct suspect. No matter who it ends up being, the murderer is a dangerous person on the loose, and if this guy turns out to be the wrong one, they are that much further from bringing whomever it ends up being to justice.
EDIT: Also, West Coast? Lol, from my original digs from "Yankee Land", indeed. But damn Phoenix is just a "I couldn't afford LA"-West Coast. Oh you Texans  .
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Post by: Kanluwen
"Not proven to be the killer"?
ROFL.
Yeah, let's discount the eyewitness testimony from the barrista, or the other patrons in the cafe. Or the security cameras that saw him.
They're declining to give the evidence because that's proper procedure. You don't discuss ongoing investigations with the media, other than vagueries. To do otherwise could unduly influence the public and allow for a mistrial or jury tampering.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Kanluwen wrote:"Not proven to be the killer"?
ROFL.
Yeah, let's discount the eyewitness testimony from the barrista, or the other patrons in the cafe. Or the security cameras that saw him.
They're declining to give the evidence because that's proper procedure. You don't discuss ongoing investigations with the media, other than vagueries. To do otherwise could unduly influence the public and allow for a mistrial or jury tampering.
Yes, but what if its someone that looks similar? What if they are chasing a known convict (whom in my opinion is 99% the son of a bitch), when the actual murderer is running loose? Killing the rapist/convict/current suspect, no matter how much anyone thinks he deserves it if he is the son of a bitch, could ruin the hunt. Bring him in, question him, try him, strap him to a chair, goodnight. Unless Huckabee intervenes.
Or, bring him in, question him, find out he was somewhere else, send out the SWAT teams to find another suspect and repeat the first circumstance.
That's the process. Like you yourself said, we, the public, have no evidence against him. The police have yet to release it.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Okay. Let's put it like this.
They've already issued a warrant for his arrest on the evidence and statements they have been given. They're currently speaking with his family, who stated that he was planning something and discussing how he will "be on the news tommorow".
It's over. You lose, you're wrong, lalalala. It's really that simple.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Kanluwen wrote:Okay. Let's put it like this.
They've already issued a warrant for his arrest on the evidence and statements they have been given. They're currently speaking with his family, who stated that he was planning something and discussing how he will "be on the news tommorow".
It's over. You lose, you're wrong, lalalala. It's really that simple.
All from the news, who are clearly never ever ever ever wrong. Again, you said it yourself, the police have not made a statement on evidence. Of course a warrant is out, he is the primary suspect, you arrest those people. A warrant isn't an indictment.
You are failing to see the point of my posts, which is to say killing him could hinder the case in finding the true son of a bitch, even though it is most likely him. Even if he was innocent, if he faces off against officers he will be shot dead, and good riddance.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Yeah, let's give him a nice fair trial. That worked out great with OJ.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, let's give him a nice fair trial. That worked out great with OJ.
Still not quite getting my point are you? By arguing against me, you are saying that if they find the current suspect and waste him, all is well with the world again, case closed, end of story? I never knew hunting down suspects was that easy!
I care less about a trial right now and more that every step is stopping the murderer. Whom everyone has so cavalierly (wow that's a word) judged to be the current suspect.
Of which I agree, but my thoughts mean jack donkey in actually bringing down the SOB.
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Post by: Kanluwen
So what's your point other than bumping your postcount?
The evidence is there, the police CANNOT release it. They've given statements to the media, and are actively pursuing the evidence they have. A warrant has been handed down, alongside of testimony being heard from his relatives that was(idiotically) leaked to the press that he was planning on doing something Sunday.
This isn't Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby here. It's John Wilkes-Booth.
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Post by: efarrer
Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, let's give him a nice fair trial. That worked out great with OJ.
.
Yeah, it did.
Mark Fuhrman is the number 1 reason for him not being sentenced guilty. But the case was weak and to this day remains so.
If only for this reason:
The LA County District Attorney's Office and the Medical Examiner's Office could not explain why 1.5 CCs of blood were missing from the original eight CCs taken from Simpson and placed into evidence.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Kanluwen wrote:So what's your point other than bumping your postcount?
The evidence is there, the police CANNOT release it. They've given statements to the media, and are actively pursuing the evidence they have. A warrant has been handed down, alongside of testimony being heard from his relatives that was(idiotically) leaked to the press that he was planning on doing something Sunday.
This isn't Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby here. It's John Wilkes-Booth.
You speak as if you have conclusive evidence, when all you have is currently, as far as you know, hearsay. How would justice be served if it is not properly executed, ruling out all potentials. Your method of "solving" this is illogical.
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Post by: Kanluwen
So, a visual identification, video identification, and all the other "circumstantial" evidence is a wash?
Well, then I guess the Beltway Sniper's innocent in your book too, huh?
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Post by: Wrexasaur
As far as I can tell Altered_Soul is entirely right. There is no reason why this guys face could not have been slapped onto the story, just to give people something to yell at. The whole connection to Huckabee only makes it more likely to be the case.
That said, whoever is running from the cops right now, if wounded, will die from blood loss soon. I highly doubt there will be any trial either way, but as long as they find the right guy justice will be served either way.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Kanluwen wrote:So, a visual identification, video identification, and all the other "circumstantial" evidence is a wash?
Well, then I guess the Beltway Sniper's innocent in your book too, huh?
You are still missing the point. I have never once said: The current suspect is innocent. In fact, I have reiterated post after post that from what the news (the news mind you) has told me, along with his priors, and all the stuff you keep bringing up, he is the SOB.
I am countering your brazen lack of looking at a picture much larger than the puzzle piece you covet so dearly. Why, under proper, logical police work, would they stop looking for other suspects, why would they just kill the one they have now? Closure isn't always a bullet in the head. I never said they should stop hunting this dude down. Clearly you are just trying to paint me as some sort of apologist, trolling, or you really don't get my point.
Either that or you think police work works like an episode of Law and Order.
Wrexasaur wrote:As far as I can tell Altered_Soul is entirely right. There is no reason why this guys face could not have been slapped onto the story, just to give people something to yell at. The whole connection to Huckabee only makes it more likely to be the case.
I am not really saying that either. I am saying that a warrant is not an indictment, no matter how conclusive evidence is. A warrant is part of the investigation, not a death sentence. This suspect pulls a gun on a SWAT team, he is going to get a skull full of .223. And all for the better. But finding the SOB is a process, not a posse.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Oh no, I'm very much aware of how police work functions bud.
There is no REASON for them to look for another suspect. They've got all the evidence they need for a slam dunk case, even excluding the priors.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Kanluwen wrote:Oh no, I'm very much aware of how police work functions bud.
There is no REASON for them to look for another suspect. They've got all the evidence they need for a slam dunk case, even excluding the priors.
OK good, we're on the same page. Now to clarify. So you are saying that this scum should be the only suspect ever? And that no one should be thinking that there could be another suspect, ever? A potential cop-killer that is getting away?
I am sure the police who are looking for justice for their fallen comrades feel the same way, they are just going to kill this suspect if he doesn't surrender, and justice is served? That's just ridiculous to limit a hunt for a psychopath like that. You follow your leads, but never assume its a single solution. What if there were accomplices, what if this guy is being framed (however unlikely). As much as I agree that he is the SOB, a logical thought process would be evaluating and following up on anything that progresses the investigation.
EDIT: Spelling.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
mstersmith wrote:I do wounder what type of crappy body armor if any the cops were wearing?
I'd assume standard vests under their uniforms, if they were wearing them. Most cops don't wear tactical armor like SWAT as part of their duty uniforms. ____ @Altered Soul: What's really slowed is that Washington State had him in lockup for child rape and assaulting an officer, but released him on bail 6 days ago. I'd like to know who granted bail. 
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Post by: Kanluwen
Altered_Soul wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Oh no, I'm very much aware of how police work functions bud.
There is no REASON for them to look for another suspect. They've got all the evidence they need for a slam dunk case, even excluding the priors.
OK good, we're on the same page. Now to clarify. So you are saying that this scum should be the only suspect ever? And that no one should be thinking that there could be another suspect, ever? A potential cop-killer that is getting away?
I am sure the police who are looking for justice for their fallen comrades feel the same way, they are just going to kill this suspect if he doesn't surrender, and justice is served? That's just ridiculous to limit a hunt for a psychopath like that. You follow your leads, but never assume its a single solution. What if there were accomplices, what if this guy is being framed (however unlikely). As much as I agree that he is the SOB, a logical though process would be evaluating and following up on anything that progresses the investigation.
Okay. They're not going to start investigating every Tom, Dick, and Harry who pops up saying "Well, I didn't see him shooting those officers--BUT I SAW OSAMA BIN LADEN DO IT!" or garbage leads of that nature. It'd be irresponsible to do that, as would looking for accomplices when you have a number of credible eyewitnesses, surveillance video footage, and the statements from the family members that he was planning something.
That's the "logical thought process" here. You follow the EVIDENCE. You don't start assuming a conspiracy or some kind of frame job, or any number of things of that nature.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
news article wrote:Maurice Clemmons, the suspect wanted in slaying of four Lakewood police officers, was shot and killed in South Seattle early this morning.
Clemmons was standing outside in the 4400 block of South Kenyon Street when he was confronted by officers. He challenged the officers and was shot around 2:40 a.m.
See, they shot him dead on sight.
Did I call it or what?
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Post by: BrookM
Do you want a cookie now John or could you just shut up about it?
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Post by: mattyrm
Good job, saved the taxpayers some money as they say!
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
Wonder what would make someone do that.
The executions, not the shooting of the BG.
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Post by: mattyrm
I guess he had some sort of deep in built loathing of cops, coupled with a mental problem?
We have all met a bad cop, the thing is, we have all met a great cop too. I guess crazy people dont have the ability to empathise with other human beings and as a result dont feel any guilt at all over the thought of killing people you didnt even know.
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Post by: Orlanth
So he died while evading and resisting arrest.
So long as they were real sure they had the right suspect I see little problem with this.
Next topic.
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Post by: Altered_Soul
Good riddance, scum.
Good thing the police have been additionally tracking other suspects for aiding and abetting, eh Kanlu? Let em all rot in prison.
I would have been terrified to have been that lone patrol officer. Damn good job.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Guy shouldn't of tried to run, hopefully it's the right guy, though if it weren't that would be plainly obvious by now. This is going to sink Huckabee so fast. As for those hiding him, I Knew this sounded a lot like the Lincoln assassination.
(Section edited for attacking another poster)
(What did I say that attacked another poster?)
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Post by: Fateweaver
It's fairly obvious it's the right guy.
Wonder how long until the anti-deadly-force nuts find their way into this thread so that I can point them to the article and even highlight important bits.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Over an hour, apparently.
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Post by: mstersmith
Glad they got him. To bad the ACLU is going to cry foul because they didnt take him alive. Hopefully they are told to pound rocks and go away. Unfortianatly the media here will eat it all up for weeks.
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Post by: Hawkins
Good news, bastage died bleeding.
Maybe that will be some comfort to the families of the victums.
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Post by: Mannahnin
mstersmith wrote:Glad they got him. To bad the ACLU is going to cry foul because they didnt take him alive. Hopefully they are told to pound rocks and go away. Unfortianatly the media here will eat it all up for weeks.
ACLU member here. Not crying foul.
The guy really should have surrendered.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
100 minutes and counting...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
BrookM wrote:Do you want a cookie now John or could you just shut up about it?
No cookie needed, and I'm done.
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Post by: Frazzled
Can I have your cookie?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
As soon as you're Emperor of Dakka, the cookie is yours!
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Post by: Frazzled
He he controls the Cookie controls the Galaxy!
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Post by: Hawkins
When the man Asks for the cookie..... GIVE IT TO HIM!!!! 
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Post by: Frazzled
Nom Nom Nom
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
ALL I SEE IS THE LETTER "C"...
and you know what begins with the letter "C"???
COOKIE!!!
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Post by: Hawkins
He who denighith the cookie to others, denighith the cookie to himself. CMB chapter 21 vs 8
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Post by: fire4effekt
No its cool, I heard the cops all had wallets
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Post by: Albatross
Uh-oh....
I'm hiding behind the couch on THIS one.
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