Ok I think I’ve refined the list to something I’m happy with. Let me know what you think:
Battalion (3CPs)
Captain with Fist of Vengeance and Plasma Pistol 106
Lieutenant with Power Sword 74
8 Intercessors with grenade launcher and Sword 149
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 91
5 Scouts with shotguns 55
3 Inceptors with bolters 135
5 Rapid Fire Hellblasters 165
5 Rapid Fire Hellblasters 165
Repulsor with las talon, twin las, 2 krak launchers, 2 frag launchers, mini-gatling, ironhail stubber, 2 storm bolters and icarus launcher 348
Repulsor with las talon, twin las, 2 krak launchers, 2 frag launchers, mini-gatling, ironhail stubber, 2 storm bolters and icarus launcher 348
Fire Raptor with lascannons 362
This comes to 1998 points. I’ve dropped the Aggressors, who I found to be unreliable. They tend to get off one round of shooting, then end up locked in combat, which isn’t where they want to be. Instead I’ll stuff the repulsor full of intercessors, who I can chuck happily into midfield, and my 2 characters. 10 hellblasters go into the other one. That leaves me with 6 drops, which isn’t too many I think.
The inceptors are a new-ish addition. I’ve used them before with kind of mixed results, but the army needs a unit able to go and get objectives. I thought about whether to use them or reivers, but I think I prefer having the firepower from those assault bolters.
It does leave me a bit light on close combat options. The captain is still badass, but this is very much a shooting army. That’s fine though, as I think I’ve got quite a lot of shooting here.
I thought long and hard about the deredeo. I think it’s a good unit, but not a perfect fit for my list. A ravenguard one with the 5++ bubble would be really great. It basically wants to be in a more infantry-based army than mine. I don’t really have the spare guys to shield it. If it gets stuck in melee it’s useless from then on.
One thing that’s impressed me lately is the performance of my ordinary Primaris guys in combat. They actually throw out quite a lot of wounds, especially when backed up by my captain and lieutenant. A lot of ork boyz and plaguebearers got themselves clubbed to death with bolt rifles and plasma incinerators at the weekend.
I don’t know if I should give my lieutenant a sword or a gun. I think the answer may very well be that it doesn’t matter very much either way - neither does all that much.
If we are talking optimized regardless of real life $ cost or models currently owned, I think gulliman+3x fire raptors provides more dakka than your hell blasters + 2x repulsors. (not sure if it's a good idea until the FAQ comes out but whatever)
You get more CP with him as your warlord. Better combat/buffs than your captian + lt for only + 180ish points. Allows you to run tiggy + techmarine as your HQs which give better utility than the captian+lt you are running.
I've found 3x scouts + 1x cessors gives me enough backfield camping + deepstrike denial + midfield objective camping. Add an aux of a culexus for anti-psycher/deepstrike objective camping (that 6+ is really hard to shift for the cost) if you have the points for it.
If you can run the fire-raptor list (beg, borrow, steal or proxy) the FRs and see how it works on the table but I think the math works out in the FR + gulli's favor.
He is running a Primaris Lieutenant. They either have sword or the rifle.
I quite like the Repulsor, especially when you are running Primaris only. A little bit pricey but not too bad.
But for my Bobby G Primaris list i ordered a Fire Raptor instead of a second Repulsor. It is obviously better.
No, it's more than a "bit" pricey. It's 100 pts overcosted or more. The 3+ armor is way too leaky. It's twice as fragile as a Leman Russ on a per point basis. NUTS!
I've just ordered two more boxes of aggressors as I like them so much! I can't imagine playing Primaris without them anymore. I do play RG tactics though, and they are amazing with sfts. I'll be running a 6-man squad with the stratagem; getting first turn puts out around 114 bolter shots on turn 1, eg killing 25 Tzaangor... Then a 3-man in the repulsor for counter assault, punchy goodness, horde thinning, and the like. It might be a bit too much, but I find that for their points, Aggressors are a steal.
After reading all of this I decided to shelve my other armies, bought more Primaris and traded for a bunch of Grey Knight stuff........bring the pain I say. :-)
I'm having a heck of a time making my space marines win games... I think I've only won once in 8th edition so far, out of maybe 10-12 games? It just seems like I can't pump out enough firepower, or the enemy deletes my units with so much high ap stuff that I never get an armor save. Enemies having lots of invul saves and FNP type shenanigans also makes it difficult for me to pump out enough shots.
At my disposal I have...
Dark Imperium set (Inceptors, Hellblasters, Intercessors, Ancient, Captain, Lieutenants), along with other Primaris stuff, like a Redemptor Dreadnought, Apothecary, Librarian, Chaplain, and the P. Fist Captain
Several dreadnoughts, including 2 Ironclads, 1 Venerable, 1 regular
Tons of Tactical Marines with all sorts of weapons, plasma, melta, grav, as wel as Missile Launcher Devestators and Sniper Scouts
3 Rhinos, 1 Land Raider Redeemer, 1 Stormtalon, 1 Drop Pod
And several other character models. Chaplains, captains, barebone lieutenants, apothecary, champion, and ancient
And finally a Terminator Assault Squad with Lightning Claws and a veteran assault squad with a mix of weapons and shields. As well as Tyberos the Red Wake.
I've tried lots of combinations, using lots of librarians or lots of dreadnoughts with techmarine support. I've tried going heavy into Primaris, or alternatively spamming MSU tacticals with rhinos. I've tried the Terminators, the vanguard vets, all sorts of things, but it just never feels like enough... I've been tabled half of the times I've played, usually by turn 3 or 4...
Tips? Things to add to the army? Things I should never ever use? Things I should change up? Allies to fill in the gaps? Anything would be appreciated.
Mandragola wrote: Not all dreads are bad. Deredeos, contemptors and venerable dreads all have their uses.
Sons of Guilliman is really good on plasma inceptors.
SftS is of course amazing.
There are some weak stratagems too. I wish bolter drill did more, but it really doesn't. It's only meaningful effect is to make firing my aggressors take even longer to resolve.
Plasmaceptors aren't good enough to elevate the strategum
This is true of almost every facet of the space marine army.
When looking to competition, there's nothing good enough, not even guilliman, to elevate the list, and there are a lot of trap units.
If you are playing in a competitive meta, you are going to suffer because space marines are not a competitive army. If you aren't, then you still have to list build with an eye towards razor efficiency because the marine options are simply weak by and large.
They're painted as Carcharodons, but I play whatever chapter tactic I think would help the most depending on the list. I played a dreadnought heavy list the other day and went Iron Hands. It was less effective than I'd hoped, but did save a few wounds here and there. I'll usually play Raven Guard for the defensive bonus, or Salamanders for the extra re-rolls and such.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Just remember that Carcharodons are basically confirmed Raven Guard.
maybe but they diverged so notably from their progenitor legion I don't think I'd insist on them using RG tactics. realisticly they proably deserve their own chapter tactics.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Just remember that Carcharodons are basically confirmed Raven Guard.
I don't do tournaments, I just want to have a list that doesn't auto-lose against my local group. I play against a lot of death guard, dark eldar, necron, daemons, space wolves, and admech. Lots of tough things with lots of invul saves or other survival shenanigans that makes my limited firepower feel really ineffectual sometimes.
But yeah, you could make a fluff argument for many mystery chapters having any chapter tactic. I didn't paint my marines Imperial Fists or Salamanders specifically for that reason :p
Drbored, well, some heavy hitters are needed, I'd say, in that army list. A Fire Raptor would shake things up a bit, and be your best bet! A deredeo is a nice weapons platform, especially if you face a lot of xenos, and it can be equipped with a 5++ bubble kit. A leviathan is expensive, but if you can put might of heroes on it, it's sitting on -1 hit, T9, 4++. Have you tried a jumpcap and using your inceptors as plasma? I kind of prefer them to hellblasters a little now. A few dev squads would be handy. Or you could go fro triple pred killshot, but the problem there is it's hard to get the lower drop count in that list, and if you go second you'll never get to shoot with 3 preds. I'm no expert by the way, these are just my ramblings. But you do need more guns imo.
grouchoben wrote: Drbored, well, some heavy hitters are needed, I'd say, in that army list. A Fire Raptor would shake things up a bit, and be your best bet! A deredeo is a nice weapons platform, especially if you face a lot of xenos, and it can be equipped with a 5++ bubble kit. A leviathan is expensive, but if you can put might of heroes on it, it's sitting on -1 hit, T9, 4++. Have you tried a jumpcap and using your inceptors as plasma? I kind of prefer them to hellblasters a little now. A few dev squads would be handy. Or you could go fro triple pred killshot, but the problem there is it's hard to get the lower drop count in that list, and if you go second you'll never get to shoot with 3 preds. I'm no expert by the way, these are just my ramblings. But you do need more guns imo.
Thanks for the tips! It definitely feels like my army lacks any real punch, and whenever I try to bring it (like in the form of the Redemptor or Land Raider) it's too expensive or only gets one round of real shooting in before being rendered ineffective.
I think I might try to run the Inceptors with plasma and see if that nets me any progress. I can proxy that easily for a few games. Otherwise, I might look seriously at some forgeworld options. the Leviathan is sexy, as is the Fire Raptor, but I worry about my opponents letting me use it. :/
Redemptors are okay as a counter assault unir but they're not agood gun unit. Landraiders aren't great right now I'm afraid... each plasceptor unit you drop with a jumpcap should slag a predator, they're punchy units! Id consider buying a fireraptor or leviarhan with twin stormcannon array. Contemptor mortis with quad lascannon are great anti- heavy units too, and tougher than preds. Good luck!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where i play it would be crazy to try amd srop your opponent using FW, but if thats the case in your area then you have a bit of a problem! All SM's best heavy stuff is FW... you might have to plump for 3 preds...
drbored wrote: I'm having a heck of a time making my space marines win games... I think I've only won once in 8th edition so far, out of maybe 10-12 games? It just seems like I can't pump out enough firepower, or the enemy deletes my units with so much high ap stuff that I never get an armor save. Enemies having lots of invul saves and FNP type shenanigans also makes it difficult for me to pump out enough shots.
At my disposal I have...
Dark Imperium set (Inceptors, Hellblasters, Intercessors, Ancient, Captain, Lieutenants), along with other Primaris stuff, like a Redemptor Dreadnought, Apothecary, Librarian, Chaplain, and the P. Fist Captain
Several dreadnoughts, including 2 Ironclads, 1 Venerable, 1 regular
Tons of Tactical Marines with all sorts of weapons, plasma, melta, grav, as wel as Missile Launcher Devestators and Sniper Scouts
3 Rhinos, 1 Land Raider Redeemer, 1 Stormtalon, 1 Drop Pod
And several other character models. Chaplains, captains, barebone lieutenants, apothecary, champion, and ancient
And finally a Terminator Assault Squad with Lightning Claws and a veteran assault squad with a mix of weapons and shields. As well as Tyberos the Red Wake.
I've tried lots of combinations, using lots of librarians or lots of dreadnoughts with techmarine support. I've tried going heavy into Primaris, or alternatively spamming MSU tacticals with rhinos. I've tried the Terminators, the vanguard vets, all sorts of things, but it just never feels like enough... I've been tabled half of the times I've played, usually by turn 3 or 4...
Tips? Things to add to the army? Things I should never ever use? Things I should change up? Allies to fill in the gaps? Anything would be appreciated.
You do need heavy hitters, as others have said. You're missing big guns. My tournament list has 12 lascannons to deal with big scary things, and you don't seem to have any.
Allies are an option. Some IG or admech can bring things like russes and dunecrawlers. But there are also tons of ways to include big guns in a marine list too.
Predators are one way to go. They are fairly efficient. People tend to look at killshot and think you need to run 3 predators if you've got any, but that's not really the case. I'm not a huge fan of predators because they aren't all that tough for their cost, and can be locked down quite well.
Mortis contemptor (with las) and deredeo dreadnoughts are good options from FW. These benefit from CTs, and many of the options are good for them. They also fit well in a Carcharadons list, as they are supposed to bring old skool gear.
A squad or two of devastators with lascannons would be another interesting option. Ravenguard CT would be best for these, and would also be a good fit for your chapter.
You do also have the option of getting some big stuff, like fire raptors and repulsors. That's what I'm doing, but it might not be perfect for you. It would mean a very different approach for your army, and maybe putting aside quite a bit of your existing stuff. I like the units myself.
Planes can have big guns on them. Stormtalons and Xiphons are both decent options. They are hard to hit and reasonably tough - and of course they can't be locked down in cc.
And finally you can just scatter lascannons throughout your tactical squads. This can work surprisingly well, as each gun is difficult to get rid of. Personally I go wtih intercessors and scouts for troops, and use them to screen my more valuable stuff.
drbored wrote: I'm having a heck of a time making my space marines win games... I think I've only won once in 8th edition so far, out of maybe 10-12 games? It just seems like I can't pump out enough firepower, or the enemy deletes my units with so much high ap stuff that I never get an armor save. Enemies having lots of invul saves and FNP type shenanigans also makes it difficult for me to pump out enough shots.
At my disposal I have...
Dark Imperium set (Inceptors, Hellblasters, Intercessors, Ancient, Captain, Lieutenants), along with other Primaris stuff, like a Redemptor Dreadnought, Apothecary, Librarian, Chaplain, and the P. Fist Captain
Several dreadnoughts, including 2 Ironclads, 1 Venerable, 1 regular
Tons of Tactical Marines with all sorts of weapons, plasma, melta, grav, as wel as Missile Launcher Devestators and Sniper Scouts
3 Rhinos, 1 Land Raider Redeemer, 1 Stormtalon, 1 Drop Pod
And several other character models. Chaplains, captains, barebone lieutenants, apothecary, champion, and ancient
And finally a Terminator Assault Squad with Lightning Claws and a veteran assault squad with a mix of weapons and shields. As well as Tyberos the Red Wake.
I've tried lots of combinations, using lots of librarians or lots of dreadnoughts with techmarine support. I've tried going heavy into Primaris, or alternatively spamming MSU tacticals with rhinos. I've tried the Terminators, the vanguard vets, all sorts of things, but it just never feels like enough... I've been tabled half of the times I've played, usually by turn 3 or 4...
Tips? Things to add to the army? Things I should never ever use? Things I should change up? Allies to fill in the gaps? Anything would be appreciated.
If your enemies have lots of invuln, you do NOT want lascannon spam. You want autocannons/plasma. Weapons with lots of shots that each do 2 damage.
Marines are in a bit of a bind as our options are not *efficient* in any phase of the game. They can do it all in theory, but aren't good at any of it *for the cost*. Allies, particuarly the IG, might be a good idea in general.
Also, if you are RG, consider assault centurions to crank up the pressure to 11.
Kelligula wrote: This entire thread makes me wish I focused more on my Scions, Custodes, and Drukhari instead of buying more Primaris...
Primaris are rumored to get lots of love in the Deathwatch codex, so you shouldn't abandon ship yet!
Also I'm at random going to just drop the list I've been using. I've made small changes to it over the course of a few games but so far the only time it failed me was my first ITC rules game and I played it poorly.
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 87pts] . 2x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Hey again guys and gals, been a while since I've posted!
Just out of curiosity, has anyone else found any uses for drop pods beyond transporting a unit? I keep coming back trying to find a use for my drop pod. It was given second hand as the previous owner sold me a bunch of his marines (needed the money for Orks) that I'm trying to figure out what to do with.
So I'm thinking I would try the following in my gaming group:
1 Drop (or more) with storm bolter
3 random characters with jump packs with some power weapons of some kind
Scouts to bubble wrap
Fill rest of list with stuff I can use (Primaris of each kind, Preds, etc)
Plan: I figured I would deploy everything except pod(s) and characters. On my turn (providing my JP characters come in from reserve) I would launch the empty pod down and the characters with it. See if the pod (or pods?) can save the characters from being targeted for a turn, next turn jump them away to pummel some units in CC that were softened up by my scouts, preds, razorbacks, devs etc. JP characters would be armed to deal with mostly small units or damaged vehicles.
Could add a Calexus for some smite defense or a Libarian to give MoH on the pod (hey, its one attack at S7 with T7) for a puzzled look on your opponent of a fighting drop pod after they charge it .
I know it sounds kinda weird even for casual play, figured I'd throw it out there for some feedback. See if ya guys come up with anything else that could make it (hilariously) better lol.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone else found any uses for drop pods beyond transporting a unit? I keep coming back trying to find a use for my drop pod. It was given second hand as the previous owner sold me a bunch of his marines (needed the money for Orks) that I'm trying to figure out what to do with.
So I'm thinking I would try the following in my gaming group:
1 Drop (or more) with storm bolter
3 random characters with jump packs with some power weapons of some kind
Scouts to bubble wrap
Fill rest of list with stuff I can use (Primaris of each kind, Preds, etc)
Plan: I figured I would deploy everything except pod(s) and characters. On my turn (providing my JP characters come in from reserve) I would launch the empty pod down and the characters with it. See if the pod (or pods?) can save the characters from being targeted for a turn, next turn jump them away to pummel some units in CC that were softened up by my scouts, preds, razorbacks, devs etc. JP characters would be armed to deal with mostly small units or damaged vehicles.
Could add a Calexus for some smite defense or a Libarian to give MoH on the pod (hey, its one attack at S7 with T7) for a puzzled look on your opponent of a fighting drop pod after they charge it .
I know it sounds kinda weird even for casual play, figured I'd throw it out there for some feedback. See if ya guys come up with anything else that could make it (hilariously) better lol.
You did just give me a good idea. I would never drop the drop pod empty: fill it with tacticals at the very least. But dropping a drop pod alongside Shrike full of goons that can immediately file out, rapid fire (with rerolls), and act as a screen to protect the HQs... I like this idea. I like it a lot. Not sure if it's 85 points worth of an idea, but I like it a lot.
Read back a few pages, but is part of the reason SM have been less competitive the nerf to the bolter? Before, all 5 and 6 armor would fall to bolter fire with no armor saves. Is this incorrect? Trying to get a feel on 8th.
I initially thought of putting a unit in the pod, but it's only one unit that'll get put down then picked back up again. Kinda a waste IMO, but then again there's nothing conventional about my crazy idea.
I'll try keeping the pod empty, leave the devatators and any of kinda of unit down range since I'll be using the RG tactics, buff the pod with a libby (cause it sounds stupidly funny and I know someone will charge it), and hide the characters out of sight behind the pod for character defense.
I will have to try it out, maybe using an IH Supreme Command Det with 3 characters with empty pod, plus the rest of my forces in like a RG Bat Det. Don't expect to win a tourney but maybe I should try it for the "angry pod" tactic lol.
Pops - while that is true of the Bolter, it's also true of Pulse, Splinter, and Shuriken too - among other weapons.
Most small arms were AP5 and are now AP-. One exception is Necron Warriors, who went to AP-1 - and Necrons did a lot worse than SM in 8th (pre-necron-codex - can't comment on that yet).
I don’t really see much point in dropping an empty pod. For the same price, or around the same, you could have a real unit. 5 deep strike reivers, for example. Same wounds as the drop pod, but guns and stuff.
Give the empty pod a go and see how it works. It might be ok, but I wouldn’t bank on it.
But some tips (keep in mind that this is from my experience only and based on what you have).
I play Ultramarines
My anvil (or firebase team)
I try to have a solid backfield gun line of devastator marines. MSU but with 1 to 2 weapons per squad with a Cherub. I almost always have a 5 man 2xmissile launcher and another with 2 las cannons. I have a 3rd one just in case or depending on the mood with with MLs again or plasma cannons. Always keep a captain or one upgraded to a CM near them. having an ancient (any kind but company champion is the cheapest) carrying the standard of the Emperor also makes your opponent think twice about targeting them since you'll likely still get a shot off. You can also keep a LT nearby as well but not always necessary.
If you can find a Thunderfire get it. it won't kill that much but it helps with board control with its stratagem. Also you can hit pesky things that might be hiding out of site.
My hammer (or assault team)
Vanguard vets. Good beta or alpha strikers. Give them two chainswords for 4 attacks a piece or take a few Thunder hammers if you face vehicle heavy lists.
Drop pod. I fill it with Sternguard (no upgrades) and an Lt.
Deepstriking Captain. You can go one way or an other. J-Pack Captain or terminator captain. Take a storm shield and TH on them one way or the other. The j-pack guy will have more mobility but the Terminator one will have better armour and an extra wound. Take the shield eternal if you can.
Send in a librarian with a J-pack for smite goodness but also with veil of time to reroll any failed charges on a unit should you decide to charge with something.
I either use 2x plasma pistol heavy (3 per) assault squads. I overcharge the shooting (make sure you deepstrike near your captain that did the same) to avoid overheating casualties. or sometimes reavers if I feel more assault oriented.
note: Assault squads may not be your best choice but they can deep strike, get decent plasma off for not too many points and are mobile enough to be good harassers and objective takers. they can also break out of melee unimpeded.
Reavers are also nota bad choice to join the assault strike team but I don't think you have those.
Another thing I've been experimenting with is veterans and honour guard. veterans are cheap. cabn be given special weapons (like plasma or combi weapons). keep them in two man squads. It means the opponent will have to over commit to deal with them. An assault cannon firing at two guys is better than one firing at 5 if you get my meaning. The meaning being that the most he can kill is 2 guys and some weapons fire multiple shots that would other wise be wasted plus they can help save your characters if nearby.
Scouts help create a bubble and can act as harrassers. I play three of them. shotguns in one, bolters and HB in another. if I can manage it I have a sniper squad as well.
I use tactical squads to help control my table side of the board but they also act as a good reserve to help back up your assault strike guys. I always have at least one rhino but two would be better. again if you can, put two five man squads in each. Five man squads are better than ten due to the "free" Sgt that can unlock weapons but gives youteh extra attack in melee if ever that should happen. Take a special weapon if you can. also always pay the two points to get an extra storm bolter on your rhinos.
I have one Tact normally with a HB for range and access to hellfire card. my other two go in a rhino. bare bones with a flamer in each. My tactic is to drive up and pop smoke. Once you get near the enemy and if you survive (hoping the focus on your strike force) get the tacts out for a 9 inch move (that should put you well within charge or rapid fire range). I then move the rhino as close as I can to whatever I'm targeting. unleash 8 stormbolter shots, rapid fire from the Tacts and 2 flamers. Then I charge the Rhino in to lock up what's left. Next turn get the tacts in range for pistol shots into melee or if he backed off, rinse and repeat.
Anyways just a few thoughts that might help.
I like apothecaries but I find they aren't worth their points and are situational
Chaplains seem cool but you are better off with captains and lieutenants.
librarians are almost always an auto include. Tigurius is also good.
Not a fan of primaris unless playing Raven guard. Deep striking Hellblasters are awesome but with the ability to do that they aren't that great for me since they can be avoided or just shot up.
So get a Thunderfire and some scouts (scout bikers are also quite good)
As for allies, guard battalion of 2 Commanders and three squads with mortars. hang back, hold you side and lob 3D6 strength 4 hits at whatever you want. take Cadia and reroll hits if you are stationary.
Hope this helps a bit. there's lots more but that's what I have for now for you.
Cheers.
drbored wrote: I'm having a heck of a time making my space marines win games... I think I've only won once in 8th edition so far, out of maybe 10-12 games? It just seems like I can't pump out enough firepower, or the enemy deletes my units with so much high ap stuff that I never get an armor save. Enemies having lots of invul saves and FNP type shenanigans also makes it difficult for me to pump out enough shots.
At my disposal I have...
Dark Imperium set (Inceptors, Hellblasters, Intercessors, Ancient, Captain, Lieutenants), along with other Primaris stuff, like a Redemptor Dreadnought, Apothecary, Librarian, Chaplain, and the P. Fist Captain
Several dreadnoughts, including 2 Ironclads, 1 Venerable, 1 regular
Tons of Tactical Marines with all sorts of weapons, plasma, melta, grav, as wel as Missile Launcher Devestators and Sniper Scouts
3 Rhinos, 1 Land Raider Redeemer, 1 Stormtalon, 1 Drop Pod
And several other character models. Chaplains, captains, barebone lieutenants, apothecary, champion, and ancient
And finally a Terminator Assault Squad with Lightning Claws and a veteran assault squad with a mix of weapons and shields. As well as Tyberos the Red Wake.
I've tried lots of combinations, using lots of librarians or lots of dreadnoughts with techmarine support. I've tried going heavy into Primaris, or alternatively spamming MSU tacticals with rhinos. I've tried the Terminators, the vanguard vets, all sorts of things, but it just never feels like enough... I've been tabled half of the times I've played, usually by turn 3 or 4...
Tips? Things to add to the army? Things I should never ever use? Things I should change up? Allies to fill in the gaps? Anything would be appreciated.
Martel732 wrote: A pod gets 10 marines much closer to the enemy. Put marines in it.
This is what I'm thinking. The marines are relatively expendable, while also taking a bit of dedication to deal with when they're right in your face. It also gets them within 12", which is the absolute only range where Marines can be a threat.
Though I'm not convinced the extra points are worth it. For 55 points less you could have 10 gakky Assault Marines that will serve the same purpose (screen, flakk for the enemy to deal with), with the exchanged bonus of being able to get in your opponents face and tie them up/force them to reposition.
Martel732 wrote: A pod gets 10 marines much closer to the enemy. Put marines in it.
This is what I'm thinking. The marines are relatively expendable, while also taking a bit of dedication to deal with when they're right in your face. It also gets them within 12", which is the absolute only range where Marines can be a threat.
Though I'm not convinced the extra points are worth it. For 55 points less you could have 10 gakky Assault Marines that will serve the same purpose (screen, flakk for the enemy to deal with), with the exchanged bonus of being able to get in your opponents face and tie them up/force them to reposition.
Personally, if they are only there to screen and probably rush into combat, i'd take 10 non-jump pack assault marines in the pod as opposed to 10 standard marines. Gives you those extra attacks in combat, eats the over watch, and isn't going to ruin your day if they fail.
Martel732 wrote: A pod gets 10 marines much closer to the enemy. Put marines in it.
This is what I'm thinking. The marines are relatively expendable, while also taking a bit of dedication to deal with when they're right in your face. It also gets them within 12", which is the absolute only range where Marines can be a threat.
Though I'm not convinced the extra points are worth it. For 55 points less you could have 10 gakky Assault Marines that will serve the same purpose (screen, flakk for the enemy to deal with), with the exchanged bonus of being able to get in your opponents face and tie them up/force them to reposition.
Personally, if they are only there to screen and probably rush into combat, i'd take 10 non-jump pack assault marines in the pod as opposed to 10 standard marines. Gives you those extra attacks in combat, eats the over watch, and isn't going to ruin your day if they fail.
The fundamental problem with drop pods is that it puts your marines within 12” of the enemy. This is nearly always a bad thing. Marines that fit in a pod aren’t especially dangerous and aren’t at all tough, so this approach is almost guaranteed to result in more of your stuff than the enemy’s.
If you at least drop assault marines, reivers or terminators, they could charge in and hit stuff, so Shrike isn’t left all by himself. But that could still happen if they fail their save.
For the price of some tactical guys with a bunch of plasma you could have a few plasma inceptors. Dropping those with shrike would actually make a bit of sense.
Mandragola wrote: For the price of some tactical guys with a bunch of plasma you could have a few plasma inceptors. Dropping those with shrike would actually make a bit of sense.
There's no way that that's...
186 for 2x5 tacticals with Plasma and Combi Plasma (4 plasma shots at 12")
177 for 3 plasma inceptors (6D3 plasma shots at 18")
...Man. Tacs suck.
Edit: That doesn't even include the 85 points needed to deep strike that plasma.
It depends on what that enemy is. If it's an Ork Boy, yeah, don't want to be within 12" unless you've already widdled them down and now you're ready to commit. If its a Ranger or Tau Firewarrior, you certainly don't want to be more than 12" away.
Bharring wrote: It depends on what that enemy is. If it's an Ork Boy, yeah, don't want to be within 12" unless you've already widdled them down and now you're ready to commit. If its a Ranger or Tau Firewarrior, you certainly don't want to be more than 12" away.
Yeah I think for this reason it's better to take tacticals instead of assault marines if you do wanna go Drop Pod route. If you're dealing with an army weak to an alpha strike you can drop in his face and start the suck, but if you want to play it closer because they have an army that wants to get to you you can drop marines on objectives away from the enemy and claim those, while still maintaining your 24" of plink.
Bharring wrote: It depends on what that enemy is. If it's an Ork Boy, yeah, don't want to be within 12" unless you've already widdled them down and now you're ready to commit. If its a Ranger or Tau Firewarrior, you certainly don't want to be more than 12" away.
I guess my point is that you don’t really want to be anywhere with tactical marines if there are orks, fire warriors, rangers or pretty much anything else. They get out shot and/or out fought by almost everyone.
I’d possibly run tactical squads as 5 guys with a lascannon, as objective sitters. But I think intercessors would do the job better - and for the same price. I can’t see any other good way to run them. Transports are pricey so if you’re taking them you may as well put something worthwhile in there.
Nah, they are fine. 4 -1ap bolters and a krak grenade from 30" is great from a 91pt objective sitter that's hard to get rid of. 10 wounds with a 2+ save (in cover) is something your opponent is usually not gonna waste time focusing on.
If they send something that can kill them easily, it'll be worth far more points than them.
I've been using tac squads with lascannons to great effect. But if your going this way you really need to go with the Salamander CT. It makes the lascannons really efficient.
The other good thing about being a 90 point squad is I'm not too worried about using them as chaff to slow down an enemy charge. Depending on the setup I generally have an IronClad that can counter charge on my turn to hurt the enemy unit.
Using a core of 6 x 5 man LasTacs and 3xAC/LAS Preds I've gone 5-0 so far, completely anecdotal but I've had good success with marines. Local meta is a big deal when it comes to effectiveness though. I'm still scared of facing Tau specifically.
Eihnlazer wrote: Nah, they are fine. 4 -1ap bolters and a krak grenade from 30" is great from a 91pt objective sitter that's hard to get rid of. 10 wounds with a 2+ save (in cover) is something your opponent is usually not gonna waste time focusing on.
If they send something that can kill them easily, it'll be worth far more points than them.
Kelligula wrote: This entire thread makes me wish I focused more on my Scions, Custodes, and Drukhari instead of buying more Primaris...
Primaris are rumored to get lots of love in the Deathwatch codex, so you shouldn't abandon ship yet!
Also I'm at random going to just drop the list I've been using. I've made small changes to it over the course of a few games but so far the only time it failed me was my first ITC rules game and I played it poorly.
I could never abandon Gman and friends. At least we're not Grey Knights right now.
After going through all of the pages I have to say: To hell with the fluff. I'm getting Forgeworld stuff for my Primaris army.
Is the Plasma Sicaran even worth taking? It looks badass, but I don't have the FW index yet to check out rules.
Eihnlazer wrote: Nah, they are fine. 4 -1ap bolters and a krak grenade from 30" is great from a 91pt objective sitter that's hard to get rid of. 10 wounds with a 2+ save (in cover) is something your opponent is usually not gonna waste time focusing on.
If they send something that can kill them easily, it'll be worth far more points than them.
That's the definition of not contributing.
You are a super troll who never has anything positive to contribute and I imagine you as a very bitter loser.
I'm not. I'm just pointing out that the decision is not as easy as some posters think. If you have 3 squads, you are giving up 3 lascannons of firepower. That can cripple one enemy tank or monster a turn, while the intercessors are just standing there waiting for a challenge that may never come. For the record, I don't think tacs are worth 13, nor are intercessors worth 18. But those are the choices here.
And I like everything about intercessors EXCEPT their weapons loadouts. I think their weapons suck for what you pay. And I have personally beaten several marine lists with ignoring intercessors till last as part of my game plan. It works well. Too well.
As for positivity, I'm sick and tired of dealing with IG this edition. Already. It's not even been a year. They fixed the conscripts and left all their other broken crap. I don't own a fire raptor, and I shouldn't have to.
I'm a very accepting loser. I have a lot of practice from 7th. And it's hard to be positive about power armor in 8th ed.
Okay then. It just sounds like SM in general is not the army for you. SM is not top tier but they are not in the garbagebin either. This is a discussion how to play the army. You have never given any solid tactical advice in this thread - all you have to say is why you don’t like the army and many many superlatives for AM which is already no longer top tier.
I don't think it's clear at all how to play them at all.
Intercessors give up important heavy weapon shots.
Tacs give up CQC and durability.
Scouts have their own little niche; mostly board control. Really flimsy, especially vs ignore cover weapons.
I give advice when I believe in what I'm saying. All I can really say at this point is "take lots of lascannons and hope you don't face quantum shields". Primaris can't take lots of lascannons, so you can see why I'm not super excited about them. The more codices that get released in 8th, the harder and harder I find it to give advice I believe will actually work.
I'm working backwards by figuring out what DOESN'T work.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think it's clear at all how to play them at all.
Intercessors give up important heavy weapon shots.
Tacs give up CQC and durability.
Scouts have their own little niche; mostly board control. Really flimsy, especially vs ignore cover weapons.
I give advice when I believe in what I'm saying. All I can really say at this point is "take lots of lascannons and hope you don't face quantum shields". Primaris can't take lots of lascannons, so you can see why I'm not super excited about them. The more codices that get released in 8th, the harder and harder I find it to give advice I believe will actually work.
I'm working backwards by figuring out what DOESN'T work.
Honestly you can get more weapons elsewhere for less investment. Intercessors are fine overall.
Kelligula wrote: This entire thread makes me wish I focused more on my Scions, Custodes, and Drukhari instead of buying more Primaris...
Primaris are rumored to get lots of love in the Deathwatch codex, so you shouldn't abandon ship yet!
Also I'm at random going to just drop the list I've been using. I've made small changes to it over the course of a few games but so far the only time it failed me was my first ITC rules game and I played it poorly.
I could never abandon Gman and friends. At least we're not Grey Knights right now.
After going through all of the pages I have to say: To hell with the fluff. I'm getting Forgeworld stuff for my Primaris army.
Is the Plasma Sicaran even worth taking? It looks badass, but I don't have the FW index yet to check out rules.
Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be in the FW index, but also while I like sicarans, they do suffer from not having an invulnerable, I'm giving them one with a deredeo dreadnaught, but this kind limits mobility but helps against that first turn damage.
Also they need to be screened well as they lack chapter tactics.
Mortis contemptors are a good unit and a leviathan dread makes one very good distraction threat that takes work to remove.
It's unfortunately not enough to push marines up to tournament viable, but it kinda starts making them actually playable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: While I get what both sides are saying about intercessors vrs tacs, to me the really big stand out is the sifference in what else is in your lists, Appologies if I'm not 100% as I'm running on memory here.
Martel is running mostly single wound marines, with lots of deepstrike and CC meaning intercessors in his list are the most likely to be the prime target for multi damage weapons, as they don't have a better target.
Primark your running a custodes list backed up with some intercessors, the custodes are all multiwound and more danagerous than intercessors, hence your intercessors are ignorable to your opponents, who are concentrating their multi damage weapons on your custodes. Their survival is because they aren't really that scary so can be ignored untill your custodes have been dealt with.
Intercessors in isolation are better than tacs due to getting a cheap second wound and better weapon. However this all fall down if they become the best target for anti tank weapons as killing intercessors with anti tank is more efficent that plinking tacs of one at a time.
I think that analysis is right, but in my experience you’ll always have a better target for AT. If your opponent is firing big guns at your intercessors it’s either because they are doing a good job of screening, or all your big stuff is dead and you’ve lost.
Kelligula wrote: This entire thread makes me wish I focused more on my Scions, Custodes, and Drukhari instead of buying more Primaris...
Primaris are rumored to get lots of love in the Deathwatch codex, so you shouldn't abandon ship yet!
Also I'm at random going to just drop the list I've been using. I've made small changes to it over the course of a few games but so far the only time it failed me was my first ITC rules game and I played it poorly.
I could never abandon Gman and friends. At least we're not Grey Knights right now.
After going through all of the pages I have to say: To hell with the fluff. I'm getting Forgeworld stuff for my Primaris army.
Is the Plasma Sicaran even worth taking? It looks badass, but I don't have the FW index yet to check out rules.
Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be in the FW index, but also while I like sicarans, they do suffer from not having an invulnerable, I'm giving them one with a deredeo dreadnaught, but this kind limits mobility but helps against that first turn damage.
Also they need to be screened well as they lack chapter tactics.
Mortis contemptors are a good unit and a leviathan dread makes one very good distraction threat that takes work to remove.
It's unfortunately not enough to push marines up to tournament viable, but it kinda starts making them actually playable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: While I get what both sides are saying about intercessors vrs tacs, to me the really big stand out is the sifference in what else is in your lists, Appologies if I'm not 100% as I'm running on memory here.
Martel is running mostly single wound marines, with lots of deepstrike and CC meaning intercessors in his list are the most likely to be the prime target for multi damage weapons, as they don't have a better target.
Primark your running a custodes list backed up with some intercessors, the custodes are all multiwound and more danagerous than intercessors, hence your intercessors are ignorable to your opponents, who are concentrating their multi damage weapons on your custodes. Their survival is because they aren't really that scary so can be ignored untill your custodes have been dealt with.
Intercessors in isolation are better than tacs due to getting a cheap second wound and better weapon. However this all fall down if they become the best target for anti tank weapons as killing intercessors with anti tank is more efficent that plinking tacs of one at a time.
Mandragola wrote: I think that analysis is right, but in my experience you’ll always have a better target for AT. If your opponent is firing big guns at your intercessors it’s either because they are doing a good job of screening, or all your big stuff is dead and you’ve lost.
And honestly...Intercessors are only 5 points more at this point. It isn't a drastic difference in points for the very increased performance.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Twinlas-contemptors ought to work okayish. BS2+, and presumably something giving rerolls as well, should get a few hits through.
I don't know, they have a 4+ invu, 4 hit would be 2 or 3 wounds, and this would be 1 or 2 unsaved wounds. So 3.5 or 7 wounds. Not bad, but it would take 2 turns to kill one, 4 to kill the 2 flyrants.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Twinlas-contemptors ought to work okayish. BS2+, and presumably something giving rerolls as well, should get a few hits through.
I don't know, they have a 4+ invu, 4 hit would be 2 or 3 wounds, and this would be 1 or 2 unsaved wounds. So 3.5 or 7 wounds. Not bad, but it would take 2 turns to kill one, 4 to kill the 2 flyrants.
Would probably be wiser to go to Twin Autocannons then. The Deredeo I don't have memorized but it might function okay.
There currently is no efficient way to kill them, that's why they won a tournament. GW keeps handing out 4+ invuln saves like candy and this is what happens.
What you use against flyrants is: everything. Fire every gun you can find, then charge in and punch the things until they stop moving.
I killed 12 hive tyrants across two games at a tournament a few weeks back. One had 6 including some Chronos guys so psychic powers weren't an option. The other guy just went with 9 of the damn things.
The guy with 6 flyrants spread them out too much I think. I was able to deal with the ones that really threatened me, while the others were mucking about chasing inceptors and stuff - which wasn't great news for the inceptors it's true. Killed all 6 in the end and won the game.
The guy with 9 was more of a challenge because he was a really good player. He won all his other games that weekend. To take his flyrants out I had to send my fist of vengeance guy in, backed up by null zone from my librarian. I used the "honour the chapter" stratagem on him and he knocked over two flyrants in one assault phase - and a third in my opponent's turn. That helped!
I find that my repulsors are able to weather the initial alpha pretty well. Using the beta rules for smite and the stratagem that gives a vehicle a 5+++ against mortal wounds for a phase can make a great difference. And if they decide to fire their devourers at intercessors in cover, that's fine too.
I was using a contemptor mortis and that didn't do well though to be honest. The 6 flyrant guy took 3 wounds off it with a mawlock, then shot it with biovores and the relic venom cannon till it died. It also went turn 1 against the guy with 9 flyrants. I should have protected it better against the guy with 9, but there's not all that much you can really do about biovores and the relic VC.
Still, I came out of the two games with a win and a draw, which was decent.
I like to win and enjoy competitive games, but I just can't process playing 9 hive tyrant lists. I don't even see how the game is fun for anyone at that point, but to each their own.
Normally play guard and been playing around with the thought of starting some flavor of MEQ for a while.
Quite fancy building a force based around Roboute Guilliman, but don't fancy doing the whole castle-ing up in a corner gunline tactic, just wondering what other options there are?
At present I'v been wondering about a mid-field gunline,ie. units that can advance to and hold the middle of the table to better control opponents movements and the direction of the game as well as offering RG the chance for some melee. Initially looked at intercessors and hellblasters armed with assault variants, allowing them to be a bit more mobile and the 2 attacks helping a little if they get charged by any non-dedicate CC units, and then considered aggressors for the sheer amount of fire power plus a little more CC punch; but in both these cases I think they lack the durability to be viable even if I took the custodes vexilla for the invulnerable, though as a plus it would look pretty good as a victrix guard.
The other option I've looked at kind of defeats the point of RG as I'd probably proxy in another model for him (possibly a forgeworld Galatus), and make an all dreadnought army of contemptors and Leviathans. Their movement matches up with with RG, they can be kitted out for both melee and ranged similarly to RG and have similar levels of durability making target priority for the enemy's weapons a little trickier, also suspect the foot print of these models might be easier to keep more of them in RG's bubble. Downsides are they aren't assault so either move slower first turn or give up fire power, and the dreanought HQ would probably have to be a Chaplain dreadnought which doesn't look brilliant and moves slower so will be harder to keep together.
As far as list building goes wondering whether to make RG or the chaplain the warlord, as CP would probably be less important with lack of stratagems applying to them and the Chaplain could take storm of fire which would Combo well with all the rerolls, other decision would be ratio of normal contemptors to mortis contemptors is it worth giving up some fire power for better melee.
Basically interested in any thoughts on the viability of either theme and ways to improve them. Also from a fluff/crunch prespective of what would make up an effective victrix guard (one other option i forgot to mention is command squads as I feel some SS/plasma and SS/axe squads advancing up the field with the big man would look great but probably not so cost effective.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I like to win and enjoy competitive games, but I just can't process playing 9 hive tyrant lists. I don't even see how the game is fun for anyone at that point, but to each their own.
The game against the 9 flyrants was awesome actually. I had to pull out every move I could think of and have a little luck too, getting null zone off.
This was at a try out for the ETC team, so pretty much everyone in the room was a hardcore tournament junkie. People were also experimenting with some extreme lists to see if they would be an asset to the team. Feelings were not hurt by armies of 9 flyrants, 7 darktalons and so on.
My experience is that someone’s army isn’t a great predictor of whether they’re a nice person or not. Some of the tournament players I know are great people. A few aren’t, but the same goes for a few fluff players too.
So yeah, each to their own.
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ragnorack1 wrote: Normally play guard and been playing around with the thought of starting some flavor of MEQ for a while.
Quite fancy building a force based around Roboute Guilliman, but don't fancy doing the whole castle-ing up in a corner gunline tactic, just wondering what other options there are?
I’d recommend sort of a mixture of your two options. There’s good synergy between primaris midfield guys and dreadnoughts.
Aggressors, inceptors, hellblasters and intercessors all benefit from hanging around Guilliman. Contemptor, leviathan (with storm cannons), deredeo and possibly redemptor dreads do too. A deredeo can get quite a lot of infantry in its 5++ bubble and has a bunch of guns - and would mean you didn’t need the custodian.
You can then have your righty dreads take point with Guilliman behind, supported by the primaris guys and deredeo.
You’d want some other stuff for a bit of mobility and/or range. Plasma inceptors can use the Ultramarines reroll 1s stratagem. Reivers can deep strike, and of course fire raptors exist.
You can actually have surprising numbers of intercessors if you want.
For HQ Ultramarines are spoiled for choice. Tiggy is first on the list. I’d mainly try to keep them cheap. Ordinary primaris guys backed up by RG and a chaplain dread will do surprisingly large amounts of damage in assault.
So I'm thinking of starting a crimson fists army at some point in the near future, thinking of taking a mid to close range approach for them. was wondering if you guys could offer some general pointers as to what worth taking and good ways to get started. Was thinking or grabbing some intercessors + vanguard vets plus appropriate character support to start off with, maybe some hellblasters too.
ultimentra wrote: There currently is no efficient way to kill them, that's why they won a tournament. GW keeps handing out 4+ invuln saves like candy and this is what happens.
I'm glad I'm not the only one frustrated by the presence of so many models with invul saves. Really makes AP pointless against a lot of things. Even Dark Eldar stuff has invul saves on some of their vehicles for some strange reason. I'd rather they have a rule where targeting them gives you a further -1 to hit, rather than the invul save. What little efficiency we have with things like lascannons and missile launchers is completely negated by things that are less expensive than our stuff, but for some reason have invul saves. Meanwhile, the only thing we have an invul save on is our captain...?
If you think Dark Eldar is bad, I got news for you son. Try slogging it out against the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their vehicles have invuln saves too, and they're tougher.
I'm trying to figure out what my army needs next. I play against my boyfriends Orks all the time, and he typically runs just about anything that the Orks have, but never any full blown green tides, so similarly I usually build a TAC list to mirror this and our games are pretty evenly matched. That being said, I'd like to pick up something new to build that can fill a role my army is lacking.
Anyway, here's what I've got:
20 Tacticals (2 with magnetized special weapons, 2 Sergeants also magnetized)
5 Assault Marines (All BP & Chainsword)
8 Devastators (2 with HB, 2 with ML, the rest have Bolters)
10 Scouts (5 with Cloaks & Bolters, 5 with Shotguns)
2 Dreadnoughts (1 regular, 1 Ironclad)
5 Terminators (Standard with the Stormbolters)
5 Sternguard (All Bolters)
1 Librarian
I'll typically substitute the Terminator sergeant as a Captain when I feel like running something besides the Librarian, but I'd like to pick up a Chaplain some time and put a jump pack on him to run with the Assault squad and give them a little more punch.
Obviously, my collection entirely lacks armor, and transports for that matter. I haven't really felt like buying any armor since I feel a bit unimpressed by the aesthetics of SM tanks these days, with the exception of the Land Raider. I feel like a Land Raider would probably knock out two birds with one stone by giving me a method of transporting some of my marines while also using its Lascannons to zap any tougher targets. Only problem is it's quite expensive both in the game and in real life lol. I suppose another option is to go with Drop Pods, which I think are vastly cooler than any tanks, but I understand they're also quite over-costed this edition :(.
So going off what I listed, what do you all think is missing most that I need?
Bubbles wrote: I'm trying to figure out what my army needs next. I play against my boyfriends Orks all the time, and he typically runs just about anything that the Orks have, but never any full blown green tides, so similarly I usually build a TAC list to mirror this and our games are pretty evenly matched. That being said, I'd like to pick up something new to build that can fill a role my army is lacking.
Anyway, here's what I've got:
20 Tacticals (2 with magnetized special weapons, 2 Sergeants also magnetized)
5 Assault Marines (All BP & Chainsword)
8 Devastators (2 with HB, 2 with ML, the rest have Bolters)
10 Scouts (5 with Cloaks & Bolters, 5 with Shotguns)
2 Dreadnoughts (1 regular, 1 Ironclad)
5 Terminators (Standard with the Stormbolters)
5 Sternguard (All Bolters)
1 Librarian
I'll typically substitute the Terminator sergeant as a Captain when I feel like running something besides the Librarian, but I'd like to pick up a Chaplain some time and put a jump pack on him to run with the Assault squad and give them a little more punch.
Obviously, my collection entirely lacks armor, and transports for that matter. I haven't really felt like buying any armor since I feel a bit unimpressed by the aesthetics of SM tanks these days, with the exception of the Land Raider. I feel like a Land Raider would probably knock out two birds with one stone by giving me a method of transporting some of my marines while also using its Lascannons to zap any tougher targets. Only problem is it's quite expensive both in the game and in real life lol. I suppose another option is to go with Drop Pods, which I think are vastly cooler than any tanks, but I understand they're also quite over-costed this edition :(.
So going off what I listed, what do you all think is missing most that I need?
one thing that comes immediatly to mind is a captain, I know you proxy a termy sergent in sometimes, but I belvie right now in 8th you're limited to a patrol detachment without a second HQ.
One idea might be to pick up the Know No Fear starter set, it'll give you 1 captain, 1 intercessor squad, one inceptor squad and a hellblaster squad (it'll also give you some nurgle stuff you can use to make a small second army to mix things up when you're of a mind, or give to the boyfriend if he's wanting to branch out) pretty solid addition to a space marine army, for a hundred bucks.
I should have mentioned that I would like to avoid owning any Primaris models, at all . Not too interested in them. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll see about getting myself an actual captain.
godardc wrote: What is the best way to kill two flying have tyrants with our weak codex, according to you ?
Print out the March (April?) FAQ that says you can't have more than one hive tyrant in a detachment. Laminate it. Slap them with it.
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ultimentra wrote: If you think Dark Eldar is bad, I got news for you son. Try slogging it out against the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their vehicles have invuln saves too, and they're tougher.
I hate Dunecrawlers (especially since they're the same base cost as Predators) but I don't think they're that tough to deal with. Lascannons on Lascannons means you're taking 1 out for sure, and while Dunecrawlers are tanky they actually aren't that devastating on their own.
Thankfully my local AdMech player has mercy and hasn't run 6 Kastellans though. I wouldn't even know what to do against Kastellan and Dunecrawler spam.
Bubbles wrote: I should have mentioned that I would like to avoid owning any Primaris models, at all . Not too interested in them. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll see about getting myself an actual captain.
The Vanguard Veteran box is great for Captains, and is only a bit more expensive nowadays then the clampacks they sell. Since there is five bodies, and plenty of bits from both the Sternguard kit you already own and the VV box, you can make your Lieutenants, a blinged up sergeant for your AMs, etc.
The Contemptor Dreadnought is a good choice if you don't want armour nor Primaris, as the Kheres is good for most things Orks bring to the table and punching at S14 will wound almost anything the Orks have on a 2.
The Betrayal at Calth box is also a great place to expand a Space Marine force, as you essentially get the Characters, Dreadnought, and Terminators for free.
Martel732 wrote: I regularly kill 9 castellans with deep strike shenanigans. Drukhari can turn off descent of angels. GG, bro
Deep strike what? I can't wound on 4s with Chainswords, and unless I can manage to get my 9" charge with Shrike to eat overwatch AND thunder hammers, I'm gonna be in for a bad time. If Shrike fails, Thunder Hammers need to face the overwatch and I'll lose probably 2-3 models and just eat gak. If Shrike gets in and Thunder Hammers fail, Shrike is at a huge risk. Even a perfect swing in melee is gonna cost me, since he can just make the last model of the unit explode for 1CP and do mortal wounds to my precious 1 wound 40 point models
About that...i'm deep striking slamguinius and sanguinary guard. Maybe not the best help. However, i stand by drukhari being much more fearsome than admech in general.
I don't think vanilla marines can line up and shoot admech. You need to get into melee with the robots at all costs.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, autolas preds CAN line up and shoot them. But, that means taking preds. Maybe venerable dreads?
Since Kastellans are vehicles you'd get benefit from Killshot so I'm not too scared. But the issue is my predators are going to be too busy cracking open Dunecrawlers to mess with robots, and if the robots are 12" in front of the Dunecrawlers, that means my Predators would need to be in range of robots before shooting dunecrawlers... 6 Dakkabots with Cawl does 9 wounds on average to Predators. So damn scary.
Kill the robots and then the dune crawlers can't stop your infantry. One unit of VV vets with storm shields can kill all the dune crawlers. The robots just have to be handled.
If you can get a unit into melee with robots, you're on the way to winning the game. Robots are not good in melee and they are almost always a very significant chunk of an admech army. preventing them from firing is very worth while.
Once the robots lock down, you need only touch them. You don't even have to assault them. Assault the screen and then honor the chapter into the robots. GG, bro. I've done it so many times. Slamguinius then bats cleanup. You guys can use a captain with hammer as well, too.
The thing is that Slamguinius has that 3D6 charge range stratagem. We don't. We're looking at a 52% chance to succeed at charging from Deep Strike for one unit per turn, and that's with saving a Command Point and running Black Templars CT. It's just not comparable. The melee units in Codex: Blood Angels are far better than anything we can hope to field.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The thing is that Slamguinius has that 3D6 charge range stratagem. We don't. We're looking at a 52% chance to succeed at charging from Deep Strike for one unit per turn, and that's with saving a Command Point and running Black Templars CT. It's just not comparable. The melee units in Codex: Blood Angels are far better than anything we can hope to field.
Just make up for it in quantity, I guess. If you charge the skitarri bodyguards with six units, three should make it and you can only honor the chapter with one of them anyway. You can cram one character, one vet unit and one regular unit in one drop pod. I don't know. It's what we have.
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Primark G wrote: Use some Custodes - I have won every game versus BA.
Yeah I wish they would have nerfed Roboute by changing his aura, not just making him more pricey.
Changes to special weapons to make things other than Plasma relevant, across the board points reduction, making the killshot type strategems can only require 2 tanks, and a buff to terminators would have been nice for Marines too.
Other than not seeing any real Marine changes, I do like the changes the FAQ did make.
It just means you can take slightly less around Guilliman if you run him. Not a huge nerf. Fire Raptors are toast though. Maybe if people drop SM competitively altogether after Guilliman and his birds become unplayable, they'll buff the army. But I wouldn't hold out for anything until Chapter Approved in December. Ugh.
Martel732 wrote: Once the robots lock down, you need only touch them. You don't even have to assault them. Assault the screen and then honor the chapter into the robots. GG, bro. I've done it so many times. Slamguinius then bats cleanup. You guys can use a captain with hammer as well, too.
Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that.
"Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that."
Bubbles wrote: I'm trying to figure out what my army needs next. I play against my boyfriends Orks all the time, and he typically runs just about anything that the Orks have, but never any full blown green tides, so similarly I usually build a TAC list to mirror this and our games are pretty evenly matched. That being said, I'd like to pick up something new to build that can fill a role my army is lacking.
Anyway, here's what I've got:
20 Tacticals (2 with magnetized special weapons, 2 Sergeants also magnetized)
5 Assault Marines (All BP & Chainsword)
8 Devastators (2 with HB, 2 with ML, the rest have Bolters)
10 Scouts (5 with Cloaks & Bolters, 5 with Shotguns)
2 Dreadnoughts (1 regular, 1 Ironclad)
5 Terminators (Standard with the Stormbolters)
5 Sternguard (All Bolters)
1 Librarian
I'll typically substitute the Terminator sergeant as a Captain when I feel like running something besides the Librarian, but I'd like to pick up a Chaplain some time and put a jump pack on him to run with the Assault squad and give them a little more punch.
Obviously, my collection entirely lacks armor, and transports for that matter. I haven't really felt like buying any armor since I feel a bit unimpressed by the aesthetics of SM tanks these days, with the exception of the Land Raider. I feel like a Land Raider would probably knock out two birds with one stone by giving me a method of transporting some of my marines while also using its Lascannons to zap any tougher targets. Only problem is it's quite expensive both in the game and in real life lol. I suppose another option is to go with Drop Pods, which I think are vastly cooler than any tanks, but I understand they're also quite over-costed this edition :(.
So going off what I listed, what do you all think is missing most that I need?
Things that spring to mind (nice collection of models I must say!):
Tacticals: Any thoughts on the heavy weapons? You want to seed some Lascannons in them or keep them in a move/shoot idea? I suggest lascannons so you have some variety of angles and shots of opportunity. Failing that, maybe the HB for more shots.
Assault Marines: Maybe one more pack of 5 and get some plasma pistols in there to hit a wee bit harder? I have been surprised how well these guys work in this edition even in melee with Orks! Usually needs some HQ to help them out however.
Devastators: Troop or vehicle/monstrous critter killers? Maybe seed the HB's into the tactical squads for more shooting and shove more lascannons or missile launchers in the group? (Preference lascannons).
Scouts: What role do you have in mind for them? Any thoughts on a heavy weapon? I tend to get a missile launcher and sniper rifles, cloaks and cover: irritates their characters and missile sniping. Can be fun.
Dreadnaughts: Loadout? Backyard protection (Assault cannon, fist & HF) or advance with cover fire (TL-LC, ML)?
Terminators: Any missile launchers in the mix? Teleport in and mug difficult squishy targets in the back? I found that terminators do not fare well with Orks... up-close.
Sternguard: Good for filling a hole pretty much anywhere with their special ammo, problem is getting them there.
I find in particular with Orks you need a fair bit of... DAKKA! Those mob rules for them make leadership issues a non-event.
I saw no transports, Rhinos with two storm bolters or a Razorback with a twin assault cannon will help with the shooting and getting around where needed.
A dakka pred is nice, the Autocannon on that thing is nasty and then you only need to decide on HB or LC on the sponsons.
Any thoughts on a flyer? All three choices (StormXXXX) have a fair bit of dakka and could be felt in any role.
Heck, a Whirlwind is lots of fun and makes the Orks deepstrike much more to take that thing out.
All the options are good strategy in the game AND are much fun for play. A mixed force looks very impressive when you get the chance.
i have three attack bikes with HBs and they are not optimal but my friend who plays Orks HATES those guys... I think my best dice rolling always happens with them.
Sometimes the army choices themselves can give a fair bit of character to the army.
Martel732 wrote: "Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that."
Explain.
Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?
A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.
If you use an ability that allows you to fight twice, you can only fight models that you charged in the charge phase. So if I charge Vanguard, kill them, and then use Honour the Chapter, I can't fight the Robots unless I declared a charge into them.
I think this leaves storm cannon Relic Contemptors Leviathans as the best dakka platform available for marines?
Anyone check my math on this but supported by LT and using the wisdom of the ancients they seem like the best bet we have. (also allow for a couple units to deepstrike given that they are 16 PL, although not enough to deepstrike a unit of plasma inceptors...)
Run them raven guard and -1 to hit t8 14 wounds and a 4++ seems like the best bet for survivable on field shooting (20 s7 -2 2d shots is close 10x rapid fire over charged plasma without worring about death from OC or spending 330 points on hellblasters) 24" range is the biggest problem and I'm not sure what to do about that...
Martel732 wrote: "Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that."
Explain.
Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?
A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.
If you use an ability that allows you to fight twice, you can only fight models that you charged in the charge phase. So if I charge Vanguard, kill them, and then use Honour the Chapter, I can't fight the Robots unless I declared a charge into them.
I was never fighting them. Just touching them. They were never a declared charge target for the explicit purpose of avoiding overwatch.
In case you need the extra movement to get there. Some Admech players are tricksy. No worries, man, I post like everyone has played BA 500 times like myself.
Martel732 wrote: In case you need the extra movement to get there. Some Admech players are tricksy. No worries, man, I post like everyone has played BA 500 times like myself.
That's some next level clutch play, and definitely something I wouldn't have thought of. 3CP for 3 inches seems like an extreme, but if it means those robots can't shoot I'd say it's worth it.
Though do Blood Angels not have something that can eat overwatch? I have Shrike who's immune to it, but could you use something like a cheapo Death Company?
Talizvar wrote: Things that spring to mind (nice collection of models I must say!):
Hey thanks for the write up! I suppose I should have provided a bit more detail about each unit I have, but I didn't want to ramble on too much .
Talizvar wrote: Tacticals: Any thoughts on the heavy weapons? You want to seed some Lascannons in them or keep them in a move/shoot idea? I suggest lascannons so you have some variety of angles and shots of opportunity. Failing that, maybe the HB for more shots.
I can definitely swap the MLs and HBs out of my Dev squads if I feel like giving the Tacs a little more firepower. I would like to pick up a second box of Devastators some day to be able to build some Lascannon marines too.
Talizvar wrote: Assault Marines: Maybe one more pack of 5 and get some plasma pistols in there to hit a wee bit harder? I have been surprised how well these guys work in this edition even in melee with Orks! Usually needs some HQ to help them out however.
Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever not been disappointed in my Assault Marines performance. I'm sure most of it comes down to my poor timing and positioning of their deep striking, but every time I take them they tend to let me down and achieve nothing before being shot up. Despite that, I often try to learn from my mistakes and consider better positioning and better timing for deep striking, and as you mentioned, I believe an HQ would help make a difference for them, and if all else fails, more bodies would help too lol.
Talizvar wrote: Devastators: Troop or vehicle/monstrous critter killers? Maybe seed the HB's into the tactical squads for more shooting and shove more lascannons or missile launchers in the group? (Preference lascannons).
As mentioned above already, I like this idea. I can definitely swap the weapons around and look into picking up some Lascannons.
Talizvar wrote: Scouts: What role do you have in mind for them? Any thoughts on a heavy weapon? I tend to get a missile launcher and sniper rifles, cloaks and cover: irritates their characters and missile sniping. Can be fun.
I have two squads of Scouts, the aforementioned cloaked squad does have a HB with them. I keep them in cover and use them as an objective holding/distraction unit. They've done quite well so far and I'm pretty happy with them. The other 5 man squad has 5 shotguns and a sergeant with a Power Fist (not the most optimal choice, but hey, I play Crimson Fists and I love how the power fists look, and it does pack a little extra punch in CC. He did kill a nob once lol. Overall though I tend to use these guys as screeners, objective holders, or just a cheap means of getting a Battalion without bringing a ton of Tacticals.
Talizvar wrote: Dreadnaughts: Loadout? Backyard protection (Assault cannon, fist & HF) or advance with cover fire (TL-LC, ML)?
I change his loadout all the time. I've got the standard kit (ML, AC, Lascannon, DCCW, and a Heavy Flamer from forgeworld) I'm typically happy with his performance, but seeing as he has the highest toughness of any unit in my army, he's often the target of my boyfriend's Tankbustas (or whatever else heavy weapons he's got.) Some extra armor would definitely help keep some of the heat off of him.
Talizvar wrote: Terminators: Any missile launchers in the mix? Teleport in and mug difficult squishy targets in the back? I found that terminators do not fare well with Orks... up-close.
My Terminators are Tartaros pattern from Forgeworld, so no ML unfortunately. I just run them as vanilla terminators with a heavy flamer and I've been happy with their performance. Deep strike in, spray their Stormbolters, and get stuck in with a suitable target such as Nobz or some sort of backline ranged unit. Over the years I've learned that when it comes to Space Marine close combat prowess, you always gotta pick your battles and make sure you're the stronger one.
Talizvar wrote: Sternguard: Good for filling a hole pretty much anywhere with their special ammo, problem is getting them there.
Similar to some of my other units, I just run these guys stock. I like most of my units cheap so that if something awful happens it doesn't hurt too much when they're wiped out. Their Special Issue Boltguns do well enough on their own. I often keep the librarian around to help them out as well.
I find in particular with Orks you need a fair bit of... DAKKA! Those mob rules for them make leadership issues a non-event.
I saw no transports, Rhinos with two storm bolters or a Razorback with a twin assault cannon will help with the shooting and getting around where needed.
A dakka pred is nice, the Autocannon on that thing is nasty and then you only need to decide on HB or LC on the sponsons.
Any thoughts on a flyer? All three choices (StormXXXX) have a fair bit of dakka and could be felt in any role.
Heck, a Whirlwind is lots of fun and makes the Orks deepstrike much more to take that thing out.
All the options are good strategy in the game AND are much fun for play. A mixed force looks very impressive when you get the chance.
i have three attack bikes with HBs and they are not optimal but my friend who plays Orks HATES those guys... I think my best dice rolling always happens with them.
Sometimes the army choices themselves can give a fair bit of character to the army.
As I mentioned in my original post, I have little interest in buying Space Marine tanks. That being said, I still understand the value of their roles and I may just have to bite my tongue and pick some up. Missing out on transportation and tank mounted weaponry isn't doing me any favors.
I'm not too interested in flyers either. Again, I realize their importance and that not taking them out can leave a hole in my army, but unfortunately I'm stubborn about space marine vehicles and what I like aesthetically lol. I realize that's probably annoying to read when I've come here asking for suggestions on what to add to my army and I'm basically telling you that I don't want a large portion of what the SM has to offer... but I will do a serious reconsidering of the tanks. I have considered a whirlwind for a little extra cheap firepower. What are your thoughts on a Land Raider this edition?
I'm definitely down for running a mixed force. I've never really liked shoehorning my army into one role. Combined arms does look great on the table!
Martel732 wrote: In case you need the extra movement to get there. Some Admech players are tricksy. No worries, man, I post like everyone has played BA 500 times like myself.
That's some next level clutch play, and definitely something I wouldn't have thought of. 3CP for 3 inches seems like an extreme, but if it means those robots can't shoot I'd say it's worth it.
Though do Blood Angels not have something that can eat overwatch? I have Shrike who's immune to it, but could you use something like a cheapo Death Company?
BA have a relic jump pack that makes a character immune. That's all. And it's 6 inches, because you get to pile in and consolidate again.
So The FAQ for SM clarified that hellfire shell for HB and the flakk missle strategems works together with armourium cherub. You could dish out 2*d3 mortal wounds on 2+ or 2*d3 mortal wounds against something with fly using ML. (once per game and squad). Considering we also got more CP, thoughts?
Gitdakka wrote: So The FAQ for SM clarified that hellfire shell for HB and the flakk missle strategems works together with armourium cherub. You could dish out 2*d3 mortal wounds on 2+ or 2*d3 mortal wounds against something with fly using ML. (once per game and squad). Considering we also got more CP, thoughts?
Makes the strats marginally better, still not a great boost for the army, not to mention we lost a bucket load of deepstrike ability with the 50% units 50% power reserves and deepstike in your own DZ turn 1.
DropPods were bad before but post FAQ do they have any use?
In general I think deepstrike is going to be regulated to one or two units tops that you can afford to hold until turn 2-3 when the time is right to strike. This is a massive Nerf, sure, but it's the same as what we had in previous editions, so I think it will just take some getting used to, rather than it just being terrible in general.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think to fix drop pods, you'd have to let them break the new deepstrike rule, it make them like 35 points again.
Wasn't the deepstrike stuff in the Beta rules? Does anyone use the Beta rules when playing? I'm hoping that some of that stuff never makes it to a formal update.
BigErn wrote: Wasn't the deepstrike stuff in the Beta rules? Does anyone use the Beta rules when playing? I'm hoping that some of that stuff never makes it to a formal update.
Then I would start emailing GW a well worded rational example of how unbalanced it made the game you tried them out in and which units it impacted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: Seriously who uses drop pods competitively? This was a boost for RG.
The question now is who would us drop pods full stop.
RG are the last hope of a viable marine army now.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The thing is that Slamguinius has that 3D6 charge range stratagem. We don't. We're looking at a 52% chance to succeed at charging from Deep Strike for one unit per turn, and that's with saving a Command Point and running Black Templars CT. It's just not comparable. The melee units in Codex: Blood Angels are far better than anything we can hope to field.
Just make up for it in quantity, I guess. If you charge the skitarri bodyguards with six units, three should make it and you can only honor the chapter with one of them anyway. You can cram one character, one vet unit and one regular unit in one drop pod. I don't know. It's what we have.
You if anyone should know we don't have the points to spare for units to stand around doing nothing because they failed a charge roll, and what happens to units that are caught 9" away from the enemy lines in the open. It's not like the Vanilla Codex melee units are magically cheaper than the Blood Angels equivalent just because they're much worse. They should be, but they aren't. It's true that it's "what we have", but "what we have" is rubbish.
Well, 'The Flesh is Weak' does not stack with the 'Tenacious Survivor' trait or with the Ven Dred 'Unyielding Ancient' ability anymore for the Iron Hands. However, still a nerf but at least they work against Mortal Wounds .
Plus my idea for the empty Drop Pod for JP character distraction/melee units (like to chase Riptides) just got a small hit. It might have to wait to T2 to go anywhere else on the field outside the deployment zone (which isn't too bad) but oh well...In the games I've tried, the JP characters provided some needed distractions for my opponent that couldn't be targeted unless they erased the empty pod first. 10 3+Sv T6 wounds is just as tough as our other vehicles but for far less points. Took a Fusion Blaster Commander to get rid of it, who in turn was killed by a TH/SS Captain in CC. While I get the pod is meant for a unit to go inside, the JP character buddies need TH's to do any significant damage to their targets and a SS to survive incoming hits. Only mistake I made was not keep them together to kill stuff faster. Rest of my list needed some changes but overall (even with the FAQ changes) I think the empty pod/JP characters is pretty viable. My meta has some pretty competitive players so I'll get plenty of chances to try it out the next few weeks.
Edit: I forgot to mention my forces were RG & the Silent Stalker WT was a great add to the Captain.
Was kinda hoping Bikes would be troops again. My SM List has 6 units of SM Bikers. Its the only army I have that would be affected by the 3 unit restriction.
Looks like some of my Marines have been upgraded to 1st Company Bikers for now!
Yeah, the rule of 3 really does hurt fluffy White Scars lists taking all bikes. Though as you aren't likely to take that one to a tournament, just ask your opponent. I doubt your buddy at the local shop will stop you from playing a bunch of bikers.
BT best asset is their relic on a chapter master, and the ability to shut down clutch psychic powers. They're best played as a gunline army. The +3" on the bubble more than doubles the effective area covered, and storm of fire is fantastic for razorbacks, tarantulas and autocannon preds (esp with killshot). Crusaders can actually do decent damage coming out of razorbacks, or with auspex scan, while being obsec troops.
BT probably third best chapter after UM and RG, and that's just because they're good at the only thing vanilla SM do right now - gunline. Also because basically every other chapter is garbage, unfortunately.
Salamanders have a good tactic, but it's not enough when volume of fire is so necessary in 8th, and half of it (reroll to hit) can be accomplished with a chapter master.
White scars have a good tactic and strat, but codex SM units just suck at assault. If VV and vet bikers were cheaper, there might be some builds revolving around them and WS.
IH and IF... don't do anything that SM need help with. 6+++ for free is nice, but SM units in general are just overcosted for their task, and ~16% more durability isn't enough to change that. Ignores cover is also nice for free, but cover isn't what's breaking SM.
CF have a baller relic, but gakky IF tactic and strat.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Was kinda hoping Bikes would be troops again. My SM List has 6 units of SM Bikers. Its the only army I have that would be affected by the 3 unit restriction.
Looks like some of my Marines have been upgraded to 1st Company Bikers for now!
You can still take either 3 units of 6 and combat squad into 6x3, or take squads of 9 and an attack bike and combat squad into 6x5. You also have bike command squads from the index, scout bikes, and attack bike squads. Seems like that should be enough for a fluffy list right?
Appart from number of charictor what exactly do people think will keep ultramarines a competitive choice for vanilla marine lists?
As right now I'm not seeing anything that actually out weighs the benifit of ravenguard given getting within 12 inch with beta rules is going to be very rare
RG seems like the clear winner to me right now. They are considerably more durable over 12", and have the ability to sneak a unit like aggressors up close to delete a unit.
The durability is perhaps even better than before considering we may see more shooty lists in the future, and sneaking units got better because bubble wrap may become less significant with the new deepstrike restrictions.
UM have Tig and Roboute, and both are still fairly effective, but otherwise I don't see much reason to run UM.
I think IF gets a bad rap most of the time. Their warlord trait aura is actually better than the RG tactic against some weapons, and their chapter trait can increase their offensive ability significantly against anything in cover. I think the situational nature of it turns people off of them though.
"Black Templars are great, you just have to play then in a manner that's completely antithetical to how they're suppopsed to operate and they're the third-best option in the Codex. Black Templars players just don't know how to play."
Let's just say that Rule 1 prevents me from responding in a manner that this line of thought deserves. When you're reduced to what is essentially "lol l2p" as an argument, if less rudely worded, you might want to think over just what it is you're doing.
jcd386 wrote: RG seems like the clear winner to me right now. They are considerably more durable over 12", and have the ability to sneak a unit like aggressors up close to delete a unit.
The durability is perhaps even better than before considering we may see more shooty lists in the future, and sneaking units got better because bubble wrap may become less significant with the new deepstrike restrictions.
UM have Tig and Roboute, and both are still fairly effective, but otherwise I don't see much reason to run UM.
I think IF gets a bad rap most of the time. Their warlord trait aura is actually better than the RG tactic against some weapons, and their chapter trait can increase their offensive ability significantly against anything in cover. I think the situational nature of it turns people off of them though.
Tiggy is a libby who can make 1 unit-1 to hit RG chapter tactic is makes everyone -1 to hit over 12inch so all of T1 and most likely T2 aswell.
Bobby G is good but I feel he, has hit a pointa coat where he's too much without building an entire list that is within 6 incha of him. Which is about as fun to play as warching paint dry.
Primark G wrote: Seriously who uses drop pods competitively? This was a boost for RG.
Not if you go second. StfS isn't deep strike. It's deployment. Since you don't know if you're going first or second due to turn order be relegated to a roll-off after deployment, SftS can either be amazing or nearly useless, and a waste of CP.
SftS still seems pretty useful to me even if you go second, since you aren't actually putting the units on the table until you know if you go first or second. If you're going second deploy forward in cover/out of LOS and move into position during your turn, if going first you get to be right where you want to be. What's the problem?
Porphyrius wrote: SftS still seems pretty useful to me even if you go second, since you aren't actually putting the units on the table until you know if you go first or second. If you're going second deploy forward in cover/out of LOS and move into position during your turn, if going first you get to be right where you want to be. What's the problem?
The problem is I'd usually have units in Deep Strike ready to support SftS units if I went first. There was a great synergy with SftS and Deep Strike on Turn 1, where I could infiltrate my vanguards right into their faces, drop Shrike in range to provide his CM aura, try to get Shrike to charge to eat overwatch, and then begin the choppy. If I got Turn 2 I'd do what you said: deploy my vanguards conservatively, move them into range on Turn 2, drop Shrike, same thing. Now even THIS I can't do, since Deep Strike isn't available until my second turn - so if I kept the same strategy, I'd need to infiltrate into a ruin that my opponent can't reach for 2 entire turns, which absolutely kills that strategy.
Now I need to spend more CP to either win the gamble and go all in on turn 1 more effectively (but more costly) than before, or spend the CP and lose the gamble and effectively pay 4 CP (Shrike, Libby, 2 Vanguard Squads) just for a scout deployment.
Turn 1 no deep strike - sure. Round 1 no deep strike can off though. Deploying in reserve was a safe way to play since there's always a risk to go second, and now your opponent has TWO TURNS to set his army up, whereas the person who goes second only has one. It makes IGOUGO even worse in my opinion.
Sure, it definitely changes the available options since you can't deep strike in support on turn 1. However, assuming you're using a battalion in your list, you also just got 2 more CP to play with, so you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).
The change will definitely require some retooling of lists and strategies, but given the additional CP I don't think this hurts RG all that much; if anything, I imagine people will be less careful about bubblewrap since there will be far fewer turn 1 threats overall. We'll see how this shakes up the meta of course, but I think it's a net gain to RG overall.
Porphyrius wrote: Sure, it definitely changes the available options since you can't deep strike in support on turn 1. However, assuming you're using a battalion in your list, you also just got 2 more CP to play with, so you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).
The change will definitely require some retooling of lists and strategies, but given the additional CP I don't think this hurts RG all that much; if anything, I imagine people will be less careful about bubblewrap since there will be far fewer turn 1 threats overall. We'll see how this shakes up the meta of course, but I think it's a net gain to RG overall.
It breaks the competitive combo raven guard and raptors did. They were 100 percent reliant on the alpha strike from a combination of SftS and deepstriking, Now they can't deep strike, making the combo much much much weaker.
The 50% PL on the table has really screwed up my plans for a DA/BA army. Plasma ceptors in units greater than 3 are 20 PL, 2 of those and the captian/lt to back them up is like 50+ PL.
I had finally landed on boltgun+csDC for the most efficient SM chaff clearing but if they can't even start to clear chaff until turn 2 and have to start on the table if I want to deepstrike DA plasma ceptors they are off the list.
How do people find scout bikers compared to RG aggressors (any other suggestions?)? The aggressors exacerbate my deepstrike PL problem but seem to offer greater horde clearing per point than the bikers but are more risky (not as good if I go second).
With ITC terrain rules and lots of terrain, SftS still works even if you go second. It's very easy to bunker down for a turn and still be close enough to get a decent charge due to 12" movement (and Advancing and charging if you have Raven's Fury.)
I need to playtest it. I'm overreacting with 0 experience with the new rules, so maybe it will work out, but I'm still skeptical.
Porphyrius wrote: .... you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).
After a day to let it settle, I can see a reason to build a Brigade for CP for lots of board control to stop enemy DS even more with RG basically for the reasons you said as well. Can StfS some termies, VV, Sternguard, Cents, Grav Dev's (cause they're just sitting on my shelf) & of course Primaris units pretty close with the scouts for some early fire lanes & denying enemy DS. Of all the things that stuck out to me, the limiting of DS hurt so many others compared to RG.
Unfortunately for my Iron Hands I cannot see much reason why they would want to make their tactic any better in CA. I wondered if they would have combined the CT they have with a version of the AdMech <Lucius> Dogma since they said the stacking of FNP was going against the design they wanted.
Porphyrius wrote: .... you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).
After a day to let it settle, I can see a reason to build a Brigade for CP for lots of board control to stop enemy DS even more with RG basically for the reasons you said as well. Can StfS some termies, VV, Sternguard, Cents, Grav Cents (cause they're just sitting on my shelf) & of course Primaris units pretty close with the scouts for some early fire lanes & denying enemy DS. Of all the things that stuck out to me, the limiting of DS hurt so many others compared to RG.
Unfortunately for my Iron Hands I cannot see much reason why they would want to make their tactic any better in CA. I wondered if they would have combined the CT they have with a version of the <Lucius> Dogma but they said the stacking of FNP was going against the design they wanted.
I don't think you'd be able to build a brigade for 2000 points while taking Termies, VV, Sternguard, and Cents alongside Primaris marines. Filling those slots is just difficult.
Porphyrius wrote: .... you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).
After a day to let it settle, I can see a reason to build a Brigade for CP for lots of board control to stop enemy DS even more with RG basically for the reasons you said as well. Can StfS some termies, VV, Sternguard, Cents, Grav Cents (cause they're just sitting on my shelf) & of course Primaris units pretty close with the scouts for some early fire lanes & denying enemy DS. Of all the things that stuck out to me, the limiting of DS hurt so many others compared to RG.
Unfortunately for my Iron Hands I cannot see much reason why they would want to make their tactic any better in CA. I wondered if they would have combined the CT they have with a version of the <Lucius> Dogma but they said the stacking of FNP was going against the design they wanted.
I don't think you'd be able to build a brigade for 2000 points while taking Termies, VV, Sternguard, and Cents alongside Primaris marines. Filling those slots is just difficult.
Not all at once but any combination of, which was what I meant lol.
Overall I think the changes help marines more than they hurt them. SftS still works fine, giving us one of the more viable first turn charges, and in fact it might be easier to do if people screen less.
Meanwhile some of the really horrible lists out there have been significantly nerfed, which is obviously great news for marines in general.
I do think the deep strike nerf goes a bit too far. It nerfs flyrant spam, but that's already nerfed by the 0-3 thing and points increase. Meanwhile it drops poor old GKs right down the toilet, where their fancy armour will get awful things on it. Maybe they can do something about the fatbergs while they're down there.
Also my Tau look at this and ask "wtf did we do to deserve this?"... then realise that ghostkeels and coldstar commanders are still fine. No biggie. My unbuilt crisis suits will remain on their frame.
GW does have a habit of over-nerfing things, and I think that's what happened here. I was considering putting in some deep strike reivers or dakka inceptors. Neither of those are broken units - indeed they struggle to justify their spot in my list. It doesn't make tons of sense to make them worse.
The one unit that's a problem when it deep strikes is the "whole ton of dark reapers". They seem not to mind this much really, as their 48" range ought to be adequate. I guess they can't easily soulburst now - and the psychic power to make them do it is harder to cast. And they are more expensive. That now actually feels about right.
And as for making sense... yeah how come all the guys already there waiting on the battlefield aren't allowed to come out on turn 1? Wtf are Lias and all his friends up to exactly?
Anyway overall the changes will be good for the game, so all is well.
On the topic of a RG brigade, what about something like this? You'd have 15 CP to play with, and should be able to completely control the board. Not sure if there's enough punch, though. Bonus, it's also reasonably fluffy for RG, what with the number of Scouts.
I realy don't like the load out on the vanguard vets to be honest, not how I would play them.
I think it's relying too much on the -1 to hit for survival which isn't great with reapers and fast moving Drukari around.
It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier
Hmm interesting... I do run a double chainsword and storm shield/chainsword in a unit of VVs I run, but I wasn't sure about reducing the number of effective models in a list like this.
My thinking with those three units was that each presents a different kind of threat to respond to a wider variety of lists, but given how close they are in points you could easily use a single loadout three times instead.
Ice_can wrote: It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier
Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.
Ice_can wrote: It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier
Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.
Do you include an ablative double chainsword wound, or kit all 5 the same way?
Ice_can wrote: It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier
Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.
Do you include an ablative double chainsword wound, or kit all 5 the same way?
Honestly? Marines are too expensive anyway that a cheap wound or two does little for me overall. You can probably get away with the LC Sergeant just doing a single Lightning Claw and Shield or Chainsword as he has enough attacks with everyone else.
LC works surprisingly okay. Just don't expect them to do much except work through the chaff and die for not much better performance than the Chainsword squad.
Maybe sneak in a heavy bolter on one of the dev squads for that cherub + strat for 2d3 mortal wounds?
I get worried with so much anti tank tied up on devs but given how many scouts you have hopefully you can keep them screened long enough to take out any big threats (and new no deepstrike til turn 2 should help)
You literally did not know this existed until a few pages ago, all the while telling Marine players their army was fine when you don't even know the options.
Ice_can wrote: It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier
Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.
Do you include an ablative double chainsword wound, or kit all 5 the same way?
Honestly? Marines are too expensive anyway that a cheap wound or two does little for me overall. You can probably get away with the LC Sergeant just doing a single Lightning Claw and Shield or Chainsword as he has enough attacks with everyone else.
LC works surprisingly okay. Just don't expect them to do much except work through the chaff and die for not much better performance than the Chainsword squad.
I used mine to go back field hunting I need to figure out exactly how to make them work with beta rules.
I find the 3D is worth the cost over d3 powerfists and they have killed number of artillery or picking on oblits etc
Crazyterran wrote: So, Calgar and a Lieutenant for 265 points or Guilliman for 400 now?
Hmm. Actually have to think about it a bit.
Might have to convert up a Cataphractii version of Calgar to go with my Scouring era dudes. Main issue would be the bolterfists.
That is what i will be trying next. Guilliman is now doulbe the cost of Calgar, so he is worth a try. More often than not Gman didn't make it in to combat and "only" buffed the gunline. Reroll failed moral tests is usless in mono-marines anyway. +1" to charge and advance not so useful in a gunline. 12" reroll failed hits of 1 and 6" reroll all wounds will be missed though.
Calgar should be better than a Chapter Master in Gravis Armour. But you can give him the Sanctic Halo.
Crazyterran wrote: So, Calgar and a Lieutenant for 265 points or Guilliman for 400 now?
Hmm. Actually have to think about it a bit.
Might have to convert up a Cataphractii version of Calgar to go with my Scouring era dudes. Main issue would be the bolterfists.
That is what i will be trying next. Guilliman is now doulbe the cost of Calgar, so he is worth a try. More often than not Gman didn't make it in to combat and "only" buffed the gunline. Reroll failed moral tests is usless in mono-marines anyway. +1" to charge and advance not so useful in a gunline. 12" reroll failed hits of 1 and 6" reroll all wounds will be missed though.
Calgar should be better than a Chapter Master in Gravis Armour. But you can give him the Sanctic Halo.
Sanctic Halo isn't a big deal. The SM army is stupidly reliant on the special characters compared to every other codex released. Outside AdMech of course but they only have one so...
Well the best generic character for us is the Lt. Otherwise we have named characters for everything else besides Techmarines, who are horrible so it doesn't matter.
The 3 cp chapter master also seems more appealing now that we get more CP from battillions. Most lists will have at least 2 more CP than before, effectively making the CM upgrade only cost 1 compared to pre FAQ days.
74 points for the captain and 60 for the Lt is 134 for an almost Roboute, plus whatever upgrades you might want on them.
I think there's much less of a case for playing ultramarines if you aren't using RG.
Calgar is fine, but he's not the only chapter master and arguably not the best. You've got Kantor, Shrike, Helbrecht and of course Azrael, Seth and Dante.
I think that Azrael is the stand-out chapter master at the moment. He's got so much great wargear and a really good warlord trait too. Him plus a lieutenant cost way less than RG, but bring a 4++ bubble as well as rerolls to hit and 1s to wound.
To be honest, DA now do the job of the "gun blob" better than codex marines. They have a stratagem to let a unit fall back and shoot, another to make their hellblasters do 3 damage per hit, all the units codex marines get and a bunch of other stuff.
Ice_can wrote: It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier
Mine is...
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer storm shield (bad loadout but I can't get his shield arm off to swap it out!)
Dude with bolt pistol storm shield (he's called Lt. Sacrifice as he's always the first man to die)
Dude with plasma pistol storm shield
Dude with plasma pistol power sword
3 Dudes with twin plasma pistols
Usually supported by a captain with jump pack, combi plasma & power fist. Hammer would be better but we use the models we've painstakingly painted, eh?
A very multi functional squad who like to either start out of LOS and fly forwards, or drop into terrain for 2+ 3++, do 8 overcharged plasma shots then charge the next turn.
Then I have another with 5 pure TH/SS vets at 195 points. They either wreck shop or get shot to gak since 3++ doesn't do anything against lots of dice.
Kdash wrote: That feels like a lot of points for a VV squad. Do you not find them just dying super quickly?
It is quite expensive. I feel like the whole codex is. Every time I make a list that looks like it could be ok at 2000 pts, it's 2250.
They've done pretty well so far - having three storm shields helps hugely. They don't like Smite. I have a jump pack librarian who goes with them for Denial, Null Zone and maybe Might of Heroes.
Ice_can wrote: It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier
Mine is...
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer storm shield (bad loadout but I can't get his shield arm off to swap it out!)
Dude with bolt pistol storm shield (he's called Lt. Sacrifice as he's always the first man to die)
Dude with plasma pistol storm shield
Dude with plasma pistol power sword
3 Dudes with twin plasma pistols
Usually supported by a captain with jump pack, combi plasma & power fist. Hammer would be better but we use the models we've painstakingly painted, eh?
A very multi functional squad who like to either start out of LOS and fly forwards, or drop into terrain for 2+ 3++, do 8 overcharged plasma shots then charge the next turn.
Magnets on all the things, has become my new mantra.
But yeah it's very much trying to make the best out of an ok unit.
Thats why I try to take a couple of chumps to eat the dying before my hammer smashers die so they can atleast get a turn to try and win back their points. They realy benifit from a charictor to give them reroll hits though but thats even more points. But I'm switching to RG now so I have reason to get an old 2nd LC captain model rebased to 32mm and on the field.
The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.
One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.
SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.
Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.
Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.
The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.
This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.
Kdash wrote: The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.
One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.
SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.
Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.
Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.
The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.
This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.
Kdash wrote: The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.
One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.
SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.
Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.
Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.
The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.
This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.
Whats is the acronym "SftS" mean?
Strike from the Shadows. The Raven Guard stratagem.
Kdash wrote: The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.
One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.
SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.
Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.
Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.
The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.
This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.
If your using jump packs with SftS why are you hitting screens you have 12inch move and reroll charges with shrike. Your fly so can ignore enemy models.
Use scouts to create the pocket for SftS drop your jump packers in and turn 1 smash face or force them to move, ball up or runaway from your SftS deployment and punish them with dreadnaughts and devs from your deployment zone.
Kdash wrote: The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.
One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.
SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.
Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.
Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.
The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.
This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.
If your using jump packs with SftS why are you hitting screens you have 12inch move and reroll charges with shrike. Your fly so can ignore enemy models.
Use scouts to create the pocket for SftS drop your jump packers in and turn 1 smash face or force them to move, ball up or runaway from your SftS deployment and punish them with dreadnaughts and devs from your deployment zone.
Ideally, they wouldn't be hitting screens, they would be moving in to tie up things like dakkabots and tanks etc - however, against armies with a lot of units/models (orks, guard, cultists, and tau + necrons to a lesser extent) the chances of getting into those pockets gets slimmer and slimmer. When jumping over screens you only really tend to have a 2" wide strip of space to jump into, if they are on the standard 25mm base. Given deployment and enough units, people can still make that initial charge extremely unlikely. Best option isn't really to go "over" the screen, as to sometimes use the movement to just go around it.
Alternatively, you try to bait the screen setup with your scout deployment in an attempt to open up gaps in the backline to drop into straight away.
EDIT (bit in red) - I've just done some quick checks as it got me thinking about jump packs and getting over screens.
Essentially, there is only -ONE- scenario that allows you to move your jump pack marines over a screening unit.
Your marines are on 32mm bases (1.5")
Screening unit is on 25mm bases (1")
Screening unit has the maximum 2" spread between each model AND they are in a straight line.
If these 3 points are not met, you will not have enough space after you finish your move to be outside of the 1" requirement. This is because you would need a minimum move distance of 12.5" to give you the required space. (9" to get to front of unit. 11.5" to get the back of your base to the back of theirs. 12.5" to get the 1" bubble.)
If the screening unit is spread 2" between each model, then you just have enough space to make the move. However, you do need to plan this by setting your unit up so that each is 2" apart and lined up in the centre of the 2" screening gaps.
If you're against an army on 32mm bases, you can't make the move at all.
How about using SftS with Lias, Reivers and VV? With Lias' extra inch of move, Reivers should be getting just in range of their flashbang grenades and stun a unit or two. VV then charge without suffering Overwatch or tie up yet another unit while the Reivers charge the unit(s) they stunned. Coupled with a solid firebase and some QRF units, maybe this can be a new way to play the Raptors CM.
jpwyrm wrote: How about using SftS with Lias, Reivers and VV? With Lias' extra inch of move, Reivers should be getting just in range of their flashbang grenades and stun a unit or two. VV then charge without suffering Overwatch or tie up yet another unit while the Reivers charge the unit(s) they stunned. Coupled with a solid firebase and some QRF units, maybe this can be a new way to play the Raptors CM.
Lias gives a bonus to charge distance as well. Would couple well with Scouts that have the CCW loadout.
Kdash wrote: The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.
One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.
SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.
Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.
Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.
The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.
This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.
If your using jump packs with SftS why are you hitting screens you have 12inch move and reroll charges with shrike. Your fly so can ignore enemy models.
Use scouts to create the pocket for SftS drop your jump packers in and turn 1 smash face or force them to move, ball up or runaway from your SftS deployment and punish them with dreadnaughts and devs from your deployment zone.
Ideally, they wouldn't be hitting screens, they would be moving in to tie up things like dakkabots and tanks etc - however, against armies with a lot of units/models (orks, guard, cultists, and tau + necrons to a lesser extent) the chances of getting into those pockets gets slimmer and slimmer. When jumping over screens you only really tend to have a 2" wide strip of space to jump into, if they are on the standard 25mm base. Given deployment and enough units, people can still make that initial charge extremely unlikely. Best option isn't really to go "over" the screen, as to sometimes use the movement to just go around it.
Alternatively, you try to bait the screen setup with your scout deployment in an attempt to open up gaps in the backline to drop into straight away.
EDIT (bit in red) - I've just done some quick checks as it got me thinking about jump packs and getting over screens.
Essentially, there is only -ONE- scenario that allows you to move your jump pack marines over a screening unit.
Your marines are on 32mm bases (1.5")
Screening unit is on 25mm bases (1")
Screening unit has the maximum 2" spread between each model AND they are in a straight line.
If these 3 points are not met, you will not have enough space after you finish your move to be outside of the 1" requirement. This is because you would need a minimum move distance of 12.5" to give you the required space. (9" to get to front of unit. 11.5" to get the back of your base to the back of theirs. 12.5" to get the 1" bubble.)
If the screening unit is spread 2" between each model, then you just have enough space to make the move. However, you do need to plan this by setting your unit up so that each is 2" apart and lined up in the centre of the 2" screening gaps.
If you're against an army on 32mm bases, you can't make the move at all.
You can just move to outside 1 inch then declair charge over the intervening screen
So 8 inch plus 7inch average charge range, should have a reroll charge range or CP standing by to make that roll but an 8 inch charge gets you 11 inchs into their deployment zone
Bubbles wrote: As I mentioned in my original post, I have little interest in buying Space Marine tanks. That being said, I still understand the value of their roles and I may just have to bite my tongue and pick some up. Missing out on transportation and tank mounted weaponry isn't doing me any favors.
Ah, I think I missed that bit about vehicles.
They are all pretty much based on the Rhino chassis so if you do not like the look of that, it does hurt things a bit.
We all have our own strategies and esthetics.
I'm not too interested in flyers either. Again, I realize their importance and that not taking them out can leave a hole in my army, but unfortunately I'm stubborn about space marine vehicles and what I like aesthetically lol
Well, you are playing into a fairly normal mindset i think phrased "boots on ground", seeing massed marines hoofing it on the tabletop is no small thing either.
I realize that's probably annoying to read when I've come here asking for suggestions on what to add to my army and I'm basically telling you that I don't want a large portion of what the SM has to offer...
It does limit things a bit but your ARE focusing on the most iconic aspect of the army.
but I will do a serious reconsidering of the tanks
Some nod of the head to transport will be desireable or you may have to lean more on your "underperforming" jump troops.
I have considered a whirlwind for a little extra cheap firepower.
The good thing with it is you can "hide it" somewhere on the table and try not to look at it.
Think of it like orbital strikes.
What are your thoughts on a Land Raider this edition?
The Land Raider is not ideal as a troop transport in this edition especially when we deploy prior to moving.
It IS tough to kill but is an aweful lot of points... you have been warned.
So you would want to consider it for the weapons it has, over what it transports.
It is the ultimate in protection to anything you want to get across the table but they can't do much till deployed.
Some have suggested transporting a regular squad for tank "bubble-wrap" or convenient objective steal / hold unit of opportunity.
You already have scouts to do some of that work for you.
I have always been partial to the Land Raider Crusader since that is an awful lot of dakka and it can survive the short range shooting and I field Black Templar so my squads are huge on occasion.
The Stormraven has pretty much become the flying version of the same vehicle and would not get tied down in combat that is a big consideration.
The "normal" Land Raider brings a longer reach to the table and more lascannons if you are in need of them.
The Redeemer I have, has not seen much combat in 8th yet and I find surprisingly little written about it so I guess it is unknown at this time.
I'm definitely down for running a mixed force. I've never really liked shoehorning my army into one role. Combined arms does look great on the table!
I think I laughed a little when you mentioned the Tank-bustas... in a battlewagon those guys are death on wheels within 24".
My poor Dreadnaught and Predator tank did not know what hit them.
I am trying to think how your esthetic can be appealed to.
How do the skimmers or bikes look to you?
Another option is you can pay points for some terrain to place, maybe there is something you like there.
It is a hobby so it is nice to fit in a reasonable strategy and get the look you like.
Again, thanks for the suggestions!
Happy to try to help, this is fun for me.
I suspect you already know what you want but need to bounce some ideas around.
Now I just need you to talk to my wife to get her into 40k.
Her main interest is Korean soap operas, though I did get her to play Lord of the Rings a couple times.
Anyone who plays Orks is a keeper, my best friend has an insane horde of them and he keeps customizing stuff... he is a little bit nuts in the right way.
Kdash wrote: The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.
One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.
SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.
Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.
Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.
The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.
This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.
If your using jump packs with SftS why are you hitting screens you have 12inch move and reroll charges with shrike. Your fly so can ignore enemy models.
Use scouts to create the pocket for SftS drop your jump packers in and turn 1 smash face or force them to move, ball up or runaway from your SftS deployment and punish them with dreadnaughts and devs from your deployment zone.
Ideally, they wouldn't be hitting screens, they would be moving in to tie up things like dakkabots and tanks etc - however, against armies with a lot of units/models (orks, guard, cultists, and tau + necrons to a lesser extent) the chances of getting into those pockets gets slimmer and slimmer. When jumping over screens you only really tend to have a 2" wide strip of space to jump into, if they are on the standard 25mm base. Given deployment and enough units, people can still make that initial charge extremely unlikely. Best option isn't really to go "over" the screen, as to sometimes use the movement to just go around it.
Alternatively, you try to bait the screen setup with your scout deployment in an attempt to open up gaps in the backline to drop into straight away.
EDIT (bit in red) - I've just done some quick checks as it got me thinking about jump packs and getting over screens.
Essentially, there is only -ONE- scenario that allows you to move your jump pack marines over a screening unit.
Your marines are on 32mm bases (1.5")
Screening unit is on 25mm bases (1")
Screening unit has the maximum 2" spread between each model AND they are in a straight line.
If these 3 points are not met, you will not have enough space after you finish your move to be outside of the 1" requirement. This is because you would need a minimum move distance of 12.5" to give you the required space. (9" to get to front of unit. 11.5" to get the back of your base to the back of theirs. 12.5" to get the 1" bubble.)
If the screening unit is spread 2" between each model, then you just have enough space to make the move. However, you do need to plan this by setting your unit up so that each is 2" apart and lined up in the centre of the 2" screening gaps.
If you're against an army on 32mm bases, you can't make the move at all.
You can just move to outside 1 inch then declair charge over the intervening screen
So 8 inch plus 7inch average charge range, should have a reroll charge range or CP standing by to make that roll but an 8 inch charge gets you 11 inchs into their deployment zone
While I agree that you have the option to charge over the screen, it is easy enough to deny the extra range into the deployment zone for most armies. Not all armies will be able to backline and screen on the deployment edge vs this tactic, but a fair amount will be able to.
Screens still kill Deep Strike, as you've said. Using ITC terrain rules on a less-than-mobile army, you can drop your jump pack units at the bottom floor of a ruin, then move 12" towards them and charge on the next turn. Even if they have mortars you're saving on a 2+.
Usually I charge the screen and the big guns together, getting in melee with both, but focusing my attacks on the screen. This kills the unit that would rapid fire my face off the next turn while preventing the big guns from shooting (unless they have fly in which case everything changes.)
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Salamander players what units are you including and loving in your lists?
At minimum you will need to Devastator squads with Heavy Bolters and ML with the Cherub to take advantage of that silly FAQ that just happened. Gotta spam them Mortal Wounds.
I've been looking to get back into the hobby, I haven't played 40k since... well, since the plastic marines were "a new thing".
I bought some new stuff and together with my old models I came up with this list, and I'm wondering if it's good enough to venture out there and not get my gak totally pushed in:
Everything fits in transports, so just 4 drops, generally a gunline with some lascannons and dakka. If things get close, Dreadnaught and characters can try to do some chopping. Would be grateful for thoughts and tips.
Honestly that’ll do fine for you to try out the game. The only thing I’d change is to give the teeth of terra to your captain instead of lieutenant. And I think your dread should only have one storm bolter.
You’ll play some games, mainly lose but get to see how stuff works, and then you can start making informed decisions about what’s to change. But it’s an ok starting point.
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Salamander players what units are you including and loving in your lists?
At minimum you will need to Devastator squads with Heavy Bolters and ML with the Cherub to take advantage of that silly FAQ that just happened. Gotta spam them Mortal Wounds.
I tried that the day the FAQ came out on both the HB & MLDevs. Did ok, but then again my target was a Riptide with a ton of drones and my rolls sucked nearly all game. Worth having the models for 2k games, I guess lol.
Edit: Pair it with a Libby for a decent MW output.
For salamanders, dreads still kick teeth in. Ironclad with dual heavy flamers, las/ML dreads hanging out the back. And when they get into combat, all 4 attacks have a good chance of going straight through.
Also consider tacticals for your troops with the combi/special weapon load out. Dual melts and plasma will clear targets with a good rhino rush. Bike mounted special weapons are great too, and small assault squads with plasma pistols are decent, because that's three shots and you can charge, utilizing the rerolls for whatever weapon the Sarge has.
I'd give mention to assault centurions as well. Low number of attacks with melta/ siege drills works well for sallys. Also them or aggressors with flamers and Vulkan + the stratagem make for some good flamer loving. Just make sure you have a way to get them close.
Ok so the new FAQ has rendered my fire raptor far less attractive, meaning I've got to come up with new lists for two upcoming tournaments.
Tournament 1 is the GT finals. This is going to mostly use the new rules but not the 0-3 limits, deployment rules or points cost changes. So I could use my fire raptor, if I built the thing in time, but only for one weekend. Worth it? I think not. The tournament will use 5 of the eternal war missions from chapter approved - and no maelstrom - so moving about the place isn't a particular priority.
On the plus side, the new DW index FAQ now lets leviathan dreads take 3 HK missiles. That seems to turn an already-good unit into a seriously badass ragebot. I randomly have a couple of storm cannons in my bitz box, so I've ordered a leviathan body (along with Rogal Dorn for my 30k guys, who I needed anyway and got me to free postage).
Anyway here's a list. The characters go with the intercessors in one repulsor, and the other is full of hellblasters.
Battalion: + 5CPs
Primaris Captain with Power Fist (Warlord) 106
Primaris Lieutenant 74
Scout Squad (with shotguns, not that it matters) 55
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher and sword 95
7 Intercessors with grenade launcher and Sword 131
Vanguard: + 1CP
Primaris Librarian 101
Hellblaster Squad 165
Hellblaster Squad 165
Leviathan with storm cannons, flamers, 3 HK missiles 327
Repulsor with frag launchers 348
Repulsor with frag launchers 348
Auxiliary Detachment: -1 CP
Culexus Assassin 85
Tournament 2 is the London GT. This will use the points changes, 0-3 limit and new tactical reserves rules. This doesn't affect me all that much, but changes the meta immensely.
Weirdly, I have to submit this army list 2 weeks in advance, whereas I can just show up to the GT finals with it. So I have to get this nailed down sooner.
I reckon I don't need psychic defence so much, so the Culexus and Librarian are out. I've also cut the Leviathan down to a Deredeo to save points, but given it a bubble to protect my repulsors (which do fit in the bubble, and might help if I go up against a shadowsword or something).
I'm not sure about the inceptors, particularly with the new deep strike rules. Against horde rushes I could just deploy them. I could swap them out for reivers, or something altogether different like a vindicator. Saving a few points would be a good thing, as I've had to remove some of the toys from my repulsors to make this work. Something like scout bikers would also be an option, as they could also get to places fast and grab objectives. I could probably squeeze in a unit of 6, giving me the option of combat squadding, if my drop count allowed.
Points could also be saved by dropping the aggressors. I could fit in some intercessors and maybe an ancient instead.
Battalion: + 5CPs
Primaris Captain with Power Fist (Warlord) 106
Primaris Lieutenant 74
Scout Squad 55
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 91
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 91
Scout Squad 55
4 Aggressors 148
Deredeo with 5++ bubble 237
3 Inceptors 135
Hellblaster Squad 165
Hellblaster Squad 165
Repulsor with auto launchers 340
Repulsor with auto launchers and 3 storm bolters 336
what does anyone think about 3 x raven guard storm talons with las cannons? expensive? yes! Survivable? I think so?....flyer and raven guard -1 to hit past 12"?
1 is kind a waste. Two is not enough models AND too expensive. But 3? 3 may be nifty.
@Sarkun: The list is a very good start, a good "all-comers" list.
Get a few games in to see what works for you.
Pretty darn good for 1000pts.
Check where you plan to play on what is a typical list: (500, 1000, 1500, 1850, 2000) and ask if some play power levels and what that is typically.
Having been through a few years actively, you list is not a "cheese" list so you would not get anyone upset and not get completely stomped by more competitive folk.
What I would suggest to expand on what you have, listed in order of ease of use:
Whirlwind: Is a cheap points artillery and is rather fun in this edition. Be prepared for it to be a target for reserve/deep strike.
Predator: The cannon on the turret is a bit of a beast, I like that with lascannon sponsons but HB dakka does not hurt. Some interesting options if you field 3.
Sternguard: With their special ammo they have a bit of something for everyone and would appreciate the transports you field.
Scouts: Look at their rules and see how you want to use them (snipers / missile launcher [character /vehicle sniping] OR bolters / HB [objective grabbers / disruption]), OR just plain old cheap infantry.
Librarian: It is worth looking at powers for giving a boost to your army and try them out. The models typically are pretty good looking.
Aircraft: This would be very new to you and something to try. Stormraven seems to be preferred (with the flying Land Raider Crusader configuration), I have had good use of the Stormtalon with the lascannons option (think attack helicopter gunship). Use magnets so you can play with options.
I have not even mentioned the Primaris stuff and figured that would be something to try at a later date unless you like the "true-scale" marines.
My two cents, it can be difficult to determine what esthetic or competitive leanings a player has so I try to mention a bit of both sides.
Martel732 wrote: Have you playtested vs drukhari? I think they eat that list easily. They have so much multi-damage output.
That could be a tricky one. I'd certainly have to screen my big stuff against blaster spam. That said, if I was working on a deep strike-based DE army right now I'd stop, given the FAQ changes.
Other shooty armies are a worry in general. That's why I've got the bubble on the Deredeo. I tend to be able to out-deploy people though, thanks to having only 6 drops, so I ought to usually go first. As such, Drukhari are a bigger threat at the GT finals than at the London GT, but people will have had less time to get them ready.
If scourges come down within 12" of one of my infantry squads I ought to be able to reduce their firepower by a bit with auspex scan. They are far from cheap, or tough. To be honest I don't see them as more of an issue than plasma scions. Splinter weapons are a joke against Primaris.
A raider-based list could be worse than deep strike spam. Not as many blasters, but better protected and no delay to getting their shots off. I'd have to play well against them, and going second would be a problem.
So yeah, it could be tough. It's a bit of an unknown, as nobody I know plays them. I think I'd rather face them than a shadowsword though.
ender502 wrote: question....
what does anyone think about 3 x raven guard storm talons with las cannons? expensive? yes! Survivable? I think so?....flyer and raven guard -1 to hit past 12"?
1 is kind a waste. Two is not enough models AND too expensive. But 3? 3 may be nifty.
ender502
As listed earlier they do not get the -1 protection other than the usual Flyer one.
I tend to use those guys as a bit of an assassin unit to either kill off a character, light vehicle or finish off a damaged squad, the plus 1 to hit for them is helpful but is irritating when there are flying targets around.
ender502 wrote: question....
what does anyone think about 3 x raven guard storm talons with las cannons? expensive? yes! Survivable? I think so?....flyer and raven guard -1 to hit past 12"?
1 is kind a waste. Two is not enough models AND too expensive. But 3? 3 may be nifty.
ender502
As listed earlier they do not get the -1 protection other than the usual Flyer one.
I tend to use those guys as a bit of an assassin unit to either kill off a character, light vehicle or finish off a damaged squad, the plus 1 to hit for them is helpful but is irritating when there are flying targets around.
Yeah I quite like it when people tell me their dark talons have strafing run and get +1 to hit my repulsors. Nuh uh.
Have people tried out scout bikers? These look like quite an interesting alternative to inceptors for maelstrom missions, post FAQ.
Here's a version of my list for the London GT, using some:
Battalion: + 5CPs
Primaris Captain with Power Fist (Warlord) 106
Primaris Lieutenant 74
Scout Squad 55
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 91
7 Intercessors with grenade launcher and Sword 131
Martel732 wrote: Have you playtested vs drukhari? I think they eat that list easily. They have so much multi-damage output.
That could be a tricky one. I'd certainly have to screen my big stuff against blaster spam. That said, if I was working on a deep strike-based DE army right now I'd stop, given the FAQ changes.
Other shooty armies are a worry in general. That's why I've got the bubble on the Deredeo. I tend to be able to out-deploy people though, thanks to having only 6 drops, so I ought to usually go first. As such, Drukhari are a bigger threat at the GT finals than at the London GT, but people will have had less time to get them ready.
If scourges come down within 12" of one of my infantry squads I ought to be able to reduce their firepower by a bit with auspex scan. They are far from cheap, or tough. To be honest I don't see them as more of an issue than plasma scions. Splinter weapons are a joke against Primaris.
A raider-based list could be worse than deep strike spam. Not as many blasters, but better protected and no delay to getting their shots off. I'd have to play well against them, and going second would be a problem.
So yeah, it could be tough. It's a bit of an unknown, as nobody I know plays them. I think I'd rather face them than a shadowsword though.
You can't screen against disintegrators. That's what killed me. They have 36" range.
The Shadow sword is only a problem because primaris have gak anti-tank. Drukhari can be way more place way faster than a shadowsword and engage far more marines. Shadowsword is overkill.
Yeah true enough. Disintegrator spam is bad news for primaris. It’s oddly about as good vs my t8 vehicles as a dark lance, better against my infantry, and cheaper.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah true enough. Disintegrator spam is bad news for primaris. It’s oddly about as good vs my t8 vehicles as a dark lance, better against my infantry, and cheaper.
It's a busted ass weapon in the hands of Drukhari. It's novel that Drukhari are such a problem, but really it's just racetrack gunline vs parking lot (IG). The result is largely the same for us, I fear.
My LGT list right now is running a Raven Guard Outrider with Shrike, 1 unit of vanguard vets, 1 unit of bolter Inceptors and 2 units of Scout Bikers. Lots of dakka and lots of mobility.
I personally like the Scout bikes (77 points for 3 twin bolters, 3 shotguns and a storm bolter?!?!?!) but, i feel like the Inceptors have a great supporting role alongside them due to also having a lot of shots, but also having str 5 -1ap on them.
Stormtalons are interesting to me, but, i'd probably run them with heavy bolters rather than lascannons, and pick up the lascannons elsewhere. As others have said, they don't get chapter tactics and will likely be moving around the table, so they can be extremely good at horde control. 2 lascannon shots hitting on 3's or 4's (maybe even 5s and 6s!) just doesn't always feel good. I'd rather take a Relic Contemptor with 4 lascannon shots for around the same points, or even 2 devastator squads for a handful more. If they eventually get chapter tactics though, my stormtalons will be making another appearance. Units with fly are going to be big for the rest of this edition imo, so, the stormtalon lascannons might not always be getting that +1 to hit. (t'au suits and drukari vehicles are the main things i expect. Would work well vs guard though).
Mandragola, i also presume you'll be running Raven Guard/putting most of the units in the Repulsors to begin with? While it'll help with survivability, i'm not too sure how it'll stand up against a more full on gun line, which, many expect will soon be becoming the "go to" style.
On the topic of Salamanders. Cheap infantry lascannons are the most effective tool you cant get. I go for lasTacs because they fulfill the troop requirements and are ObSec (which has mattered in several games for me so far).
In terms of dreadnoughts, ranged dreadnoughts benefit a lot from the salamander tactic, but after fighting against some Tau, Ravenguard Ironclads were just so much more survivable than any salamander IC.
Also, Quick rules question.
The Armorium Cherub states that "After a model in this unit has fired... that model can immediately shoot again."
The Salamander CT is, "You may re-roll a single failed hit roll and a single failed wound roll made for a Salamanders unit with this tactic each time it shoots or fights"
Would a Salamander Dev using the cherub get re-rolls for both shots?
Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.
Kdash wrote: My LGT list right now is running a Raven Guard Outrider with Shrike, 1 unit of vanguard vets, 1 unit of bolter Inceptors and 2 units of Scout Bikers. Lots of dakka and lots of mobility.
I personally like the Scout bikes (77 points for 3 twin bolters, 3 shotguns and a storm bolter?!?!?!) but, i feel like the Inceptors have a great supporting role alongside them due to also having a lot of shots, but also having str 5 -1ap on them.
Stormtalons are interesting to me, but, i'd probably run them with heavy bolters rather than lascannons, and pick up the lascannons elsewhere. As others have said, they don't get chapter tactics and will likely be moving around the table, so they can be extremely good at horde control. 2 lascannon shots hitting on 3's or 4's (maybe even 5s and 6s!) just doesn't always feel good. I'd rather take a Relic Contemptor with 4 lascannon shots for around the same points, or even 2 devastator squads for a handful more. If they eventually get chapter tactics though, my stormtalons will be making another appearance. Units with fly are going to be big for the rest of this edition imo, so, the stormtalon lascannons might not always be getting that +1 to hit. (t'au suits and drukari vehicles are the main things i expect. Would work well vs guard though).
Mandragola, i also presume you'll be running Raven Guard/putting most of the units in the Repulsors to begin with? While it'll help with survivability, i'm not too sure how it'll stand up against a more full on gun line, which, many expect will soon be becoming the "go to" style.
I see what you mean about the lascannons. There are probably cheaper/more durable ways to get them. Also, he HB pairs up nicely with the dinner canni for character assassination and hurting hoards.
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.
We're talking about a single model, which is less complex than a unit. There are really only 3 options for a model to be. Out of 6", within 6", or wholly within 6".
So every model has to be wholly within 6".
I also saw this conflicting quote that had several upvotes on Reddit when another poster asked about the Deredeo shielding vehicles:
"There is a difference between units being wholly within and models being wholly within range of something.
For a unit to be wholly within range, each model in the unit must be within range (i.e. at least part of the base in range).
For a model to be wholly within range, its entire base must be within range.
So for something worded as units wholly within 6 inches, all models of the unit must have part of their base/hull in that 6 inch range."
That's quite a difference when talking trying to shield vehicles. I've got 2 versions of my list, 1 with a Venerable, 1 removing some other wargear and using a Deredeo with a pavaise. I'm pretty sure the Deredeo variant is better...IF the shield will cover what I want to cover. Either way I need to buy the dreadnought model and am unsure which to go with. Jcd's interpretation seems more compelling to me, but then everything is always so inconsistent I never know until someone gets a tournament ruling.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Assuming the Deredeo shield won't work on vehicles, here's what I'm thinking for my new 2000pt RG list:
Battalion for 8 total CPs
Captain - Thunder hammer, storm bolter
Lieutenant - Teeth of Terrra, storm bolter, warlord Storm of Fire
Razorback - TL Assault cannon, storm bolter, HK Razorback - TL Assault cannon, storm bolter, HK
Most forms a gunline, but the Aggressors and combat squaded Hellblasters can SftS as necessary and the Contemptor can move fast to use the Wisdom strat to give rerolls on any units away from the main gun blob.
Alternate thought: Drop 1 Aggressor and the 2 bolter marines for a Company Ancient. I really like the idea of getting 3+ chance of free shots, but it's likely only some Devs in range, which works out to prob 3-5 free lascannon shots. Nice, but doesn't feel like an auto include and would make me rearrange wargear points to squeeze in anything for him or the Lt. Wargear changes mean removing the thunder hammer or downgrading the Venerable's TL Las to TL auto.
Compared to my prior lists, this drops the Shrike+VV bomb contingent in favor of more Hellblasters due to the beta change and reduces the Razorback count in favor of Dreadnoughts for the chapter tactics. I still kinda wanted to keep 1-3 just cause I own so many Rhino chassis and they're versatile.
Sure, I didn’t mean the shield not applying. But it takes up a lot of the space, limits positioning and as noted the bigger flyers won’t fit. Only needing to have them partially within 6” is a lot easier and would let me get the other dreads in there too if desired.
Bringing Guard as a cheap infantry screen and disposable objective grabbers is certainly a viable move. I play a lot of Guard and they do help offset the weaknesses of armies with a lower model count.
Mandragola wrote: Thanks Kdash that's useful to know. I've got a feeling that scout bikers are one of the sleeper hits of the codex.
Now to model a guy riding a motorbike, firing a storm bolter in one hand and a shotgun in the other.
As long as he's pulling a wheelie at the same time!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cLrK wrote: Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.
Depends on the format. If there are no restrictions and you need the extra CP, then, they can really help - even if the just sit there and die.
If you don't really need the extra CP, or you're restricted in detachments like the LGT (one of each detachment) then i don't think it really matters.
It all depends what you plan on doing with the other 1820 points. If you're also going to be running scouts, a captain and a lieutenant, then all you're saving yourself overall is 125 points. You get more bodies with the guard, but, you get deployment tricks and "better" surviviability with the scouts (not much better, but...)
At the end of the day, i really believe it is just down to personal preference and how you plan on building your army around the core.
If there are no detachment restrictions, like the NWO later in the year, then, you could run a battalion of both for 10CP for under 500 points and then work from there. Again, it just depends on what you want to do with the other 1500 points and whether or not you actually need the extra CP.
Mandragola wrote: Thanks Kdash that's useful to know. I've got a feeling that scout bikers are one of the sleeper hits of the codex.
Now to model a guy riding a motorbike, firing a storm bolter in one hand and a shotgun in the other.
As long as he's pulling a wheelie at the same time!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cLrK wrote: Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.
Depends on the format. If there are no restrictions and you need the extra CP, then, they can really help - even if the just sit there and die.
If you don't really need the extra CP, or you're restricted in detachments like the LGT (one of each detachment) then i don't think it really matters.
It all depends what you plan on doing with the other 1820 points. If you're also going to be running scouts, a captain and a lieutenant, then all you're saving yourself overall is 125 points. You get more bodies with the guard, but, you get deployment tricks and "better" surviviability with the scouts (not much better, but...)
At the end of the day, i really believe it is just down to personal preference and how you plan on building your army around the core.
If there are no detachment restrictions, like the NWO later in the year, then, you could run a battalion of both for 10CP for under 500 points and then work from there. Again, it just depends on what you want to do with the other 1500 points and whether or not you actually need the extra CP.
Of course he’d be doing a wheelie. He may also have a beard and mullet.
I’d forgotten about the detachment limit for the LGT. I’d been vaguely thinking of taking my Tau there with double battalions. They aren’t ready though, and given that the planned list wouldn’t be legal, aren’t likely to participate. I could bring a brigade, but then I couldn’t use the stormsurge.
The annoying thing is I’ve got to submit my LGT list before the GT finals in Nottingham, which is the week before the LGT. So if I find that I hate my list at the GT I’ll be stuck with it for the LGT. Hence the idea of doing something totally different.
Bringing Guard as a cheap infantry screen and disposable objective grabbers is certainly a viable move. I play a lot of Guard and they do help offset the weaknesses of armies with a lower model count.
Exactly what I'm thinking. For the points it seems like a no brainer, unfortunately.
cLrK wrote: Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.
Depends on the format. If there are no restrictions and you need the extra CP, then, they can really help - even if the just sit there and die.
If you don't really need the extra CP, or you're restricted in detachments like the LGT (one of each detachment) then i don't think it really matters.
It all depends what you plan on doing with the other 1820 points. If you're also going to be running scouts, a captain and a lieutenant, then all you're saving yourself overall is 125 points. You get more bodies with the guard, but, you get deployment tricks and "better" surviviability with the scouts (not much better, but...)
At the end of the day, i really believe it is just down to personal preference and how you plan on building your army around the core.
If there are no detachment restrictions, like the NWO later in the year, then, you could run a battalion of both for 10CP for under 500 points and then work from there. Again, it just depends on what you want to do with the other 1500 points and whether or not you actually need the extra CP.
Fair points. For the price, CP and bodies it seems like an auto take if the format allows. It would be nice if detachments brought only gave CP if they were the same faction as your warlord.
I keep wanting to avoid Imperial mix style, but that is a good point on the extra CPs. I could swap out my 200pts in 10 Scouts and 5 Intercessors for 32 guardsmen bodies and +2 CP via moving the marines to Vanguard+Spearhead. Bodywise I'd call that an easy downgrade, but +2CP and say an heirloom to get +1 CP on a 5+ anytime an opponent uses something? That's easily covering a Chapter Master upgrade and some additional strat uses midgame. (I don't own the AM codex, can I take an heirloom without an AM warlord?)
Speaking of, how much do you guys value the Captain to CM upgrade vs keeping CPs for midgame? I hadn't really thought about it before due to using Shrike. 3 CPs is a lot, but rerolling 2s is so useful.
Talizvar wrote: @Sarkun: The list is a very good start, a good "all-comers" list.
What I would suggest to expand on what you have, listed in order of ease of use:
...snip...
I have not even mentioned the Primaris stuff and figured that would be something to try at a later date unless you like the "true-scale" marines.
Thanks a lot, especially for the tips. I own a magnetized Predator so for a bigger points game, yeah definitely. Whirlwind, I guess I could buy some conversion kit to reuse one of other vehicles...
Scouts, well I just hate the models. Aircraft... WTH is that XD. I need to actually play some games against them to see what they do, back in my days we stuck to the ground.
And Primaris are not for me. Old school small marines all the way!
bort wrote: I don't own the AM codex, can I take an heirloom without an AM warlord?)
Yes, but only by using the stratagem to allocate an extra relic. Your 'free' one has to be in your warlord's army.
bort wrote: how much do you guys value the Captain to CM upgrade vs keeping CPs for midgame? I hadn't really thought about it before due to using Shrike. 3 CPs is a lot, but rerolling 2s is so useful.
I don't really bother with CM because 3cps is just vicious. However, with double battallion now being a decent 10cps, I may give him another spin. I like to deploy across the board, rather than plonk everything down in a castle, which reduces a CM's value. I find a captain, and a dread using wisdom of the ancients strat, to be good enough. The key drawback with a CM is that he doesn't let you reroll misses due to minuses to hit, so he's really only helping you by rerolling twos. And the unit you need rerolls on the most is Hellblasters or other plasma spam, and if you reroll twos and one, a lot more of your guys are going to bite the dust. Overall, not worth it for me, but I can see him being almost autoinclude in certain builds...
I keep wanting to avoid Imperial mix style, but that is a good point on the extra CPs. I could swap out my 200pts in 10 Scouts and 5 Intercessors for 32 guardsmen bodies and +2 CP via moving the marines to Vanguard+Spearhead. Bodywise I'd call that an easy downgrade, but +2CP and say an heirloom to get +1 CP on a 5+ anytime an opponent uses something? That's easily covering a Chapter Master upgrade and some additional strat uses midgame. (I don't own the AM codex, can I take an heirloom without an AM warlord?)
Speaking of, how much do you guys value the Captain to CM upgrade vs keeping CPs for midgame? I hadn't really thought about it before due to using Shrike. 3 CPs is a lot, but rerolling 2s is so useful.
There were only two situations where I would consider even using the Chapter Master Strategem:
1. Smashbane (who doesn't exist anymore anyway thanks to the FAQ) while running up with everyone else
2. A generic Black Templars Captain and given the aura relic
Yeah I often include a chapter master as a named charictor, but thats usually for their special rules not for their reroll aura, venerable dreads and relic dreads are BS2+anyway
NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.
So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8
The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7
The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1
So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance
So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.
So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
Spoiler:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.
So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8
The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7
The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1
So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance
So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.
So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?
I think the scorpius is probably worth it. All the more so if you're already inclined to take the model. Because it can hide out of LOS, the reduced W count isn't a huge deal, but do make sure you protect it from T2 DS. I also think our heavy support slots are better filled with devs +/ Hellblasters than whirlwinds. The only real issue I see with the Scorpius vs standard Whirlwinds is that the Scorpius can't benefit from the auto-hit LS strategy
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
Spoiler:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.
So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8
The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7
The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1
So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance
So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.
So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?
I think the scorpius is probably worth it. All the more so if you're already inclined to take the model. Because it can hide out of LOS, the reduced W count isn't a huge deal, but do make sure you protect it from T2 DS. I also think our heavy support slots are better filled with devs +/ Hellblasters than whirlwinds. The only real issue I see with the Scorpius vs standard Whirlwinds is that the Scorpius can't benefit from the auto-hit LS strategy
Usually it's implied you're near some rerolling. I just didn't calculate that because I'm lazy. It's also nice to know what stuff does on its own too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
Spoiler:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.
So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8
The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7
The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1
So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance
So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.
So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?
I think the scorpius is probably worth it. All the more so if you're already inclined to take the model. Because it can hide out of LOS, the reduced W count isn't a huge deal, but do make sure you protect it from T2 DS. I also think our heavy support slots are better filled with devs +/ Hellblasters than whirlwinds. The only real issue I see with the Scorpius vs standard Whirlwinds is that the Scorpius can't benefit from the auto-hit LS strategy
Usually it's implied you're near some rerolling. I just didn't calculate that because I'm lazy. It's also nice to know what stuff does on its own too.
I wasn't taking away from that. Simply saying that one benefit the standard whirlwinds have over the scorpius is you can potentially allow them to auto-hit (which on a Castellan would likely make a significant difference). As I said though, I'd probably run the scorpius. The only time the regular whirlwinds is a no brainer is if you're running DA with Sableclaw and a Talonmaster or two.
I also found the main solution to the problem of how to make Lias Drops more effective. The answer was under our noses the entire time.
The Ancient is one of the few ways to really make the most of the 18 point at minimum models. Just use a single command point to Infiltrate him and have the rest of the army catch up. The Relic Banner to make the effect 3+ would be the best upgrade.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I also found the main solution to the problem of how to make Lias Drops more effective. The answer was under our noses the entire time.
The Ancient is one of the few ways to really make the most of the 18 point at minimum models. Just use a single command point to Infiltrate him and have the rest of the army catch up. The Relic Banner to make the effect 3+ would be the best upgrade.
Don't Lias and the boys have to wait until turn 2 now?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I also found the main solution to the problem of how to make Lias Drops more effective. The answer was under our noses the entire time.
The Ancient is one of the few ways to really make the most of the 18 point at minimum models. Just use a single command point to Infiltrate him and have the rest of the army catch up. The Relic Banner to make the effect 3+ would be the best upgrade.
Don't Lias and the boys have to wait until turn 2 now?
To get more into range of stuff. You'd need to kill as much of the screens as you can before that point, and, if you can't Lias them early, camp the Ancient in cover as close as you can.
The opponent will know the plan at that point and will direct a a very disproportionate amount of firepower at him, which makes for the cheapest Distraction Carnifex we got in a setting like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm just trying to think outside the box at this point. I figured Sternguard and Command Squads have the highest number of potential shots for the points, though Devastators would be an excellent choice as well.
I do wonder if the tendency to want to bring 3 pricey units down with Lias is a bit of a trap now.
2-3 units that cost about 200 points each is a large portion of any list, I wonder how effective the first couple turns would be waiting for them, especially when going second.
jcd386 wrote: I do wonder if the tendency to want to bring 3 pricey units down with Lias is a bit of a trap now.
2-3 units that cost about 200 points each is a large portion of any list, I wonder how effective the first couple turns would be waiting for them, especially when going second.
I was for the most part dropping them either T1 or T2. It'll affect maybe half my games if my opponent deploys inefficiently.
How many points is the twin autocannon? Battlescribe shows 30 on Forgeworld models and 33 on regular. Which is the most recent pricing?
Specifically, the Contemptors list it as 30 or 2 for 60. My copy of the FW book says 33, so either they reduced it in a CA, or there's a typo in Battlescribe.
Crimson_ wrote: The twin autocannon has a listing in the CA forgeworld wargear section. It is indeed 30 points.
Huh...But, then why is it 33 for other units?
Simplt put if your building a forge world index adaptes astartes dread a twin auto cannon is 30 points.
If your building an index imperial dread the twin linked auto cannons are 33 points.
You can't mix and match points from multiple different units to make up points cost.
The reason they are different is the base dreadnaught prices are different, and remeber you have to use the dataslate from the forgeworld book to build the dread legaly using the forgeworld points.
Sure, I just didn't realize there were any weapons with different prices between the books. Everything else was the same as the SM codex at a glance.
Though, ironically right after asking I made a list variant that removes all the riflemen dread loadouts. I was thinking that if I'm considering buying a Forgeworld dread anyways, that Leviathan might be pretty dang good, and other than the 24" range concern, that covers my autocannon slots on its own.
2000pt RG list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion for 8 total CPs
Captain - Thunder hammer, storm bolter Lieutenant - Teeth of Terrra, storm bolter, warlord Storm of Fire
5 Scouts - Bolters 5 Scouts - Heavy bolter, bolters 5 Scouts - Heavy bolter, bolters
Razorback - TL Assault cannon, HK Razorback - TL Assault cannon, HK
It's some quite point efficient shooting, though my concern is I may have mixed my guns across infantry and vehicles too evenly. Pretty much any enemy unit can target something optimally. For example, if they want to remove my AT, there's both infantry Devs and vehicle Venerables to shoot at, instead of only 1 type of unit and denying the optimal use of half their weapons.
bort wrote: Sure, I just didn't realize there were any weapons with different prices between the books. Everything else was the same as the SM codex at a glance.
Though, ironically right after asking I made a list variant that removes all the riflemen dread loadouts. I was thinking that if I'm considering buying a Forgeworld dread anyways, that Leviathan might be pretty dang good, and other than the 24" range concern, that covers my autocannon slots on its own.
2000pt RG list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion for 8 total CPs
Captain - Thunder hammer, storm bolter
Lieutenant - Teeth of Terrra, storm bolter, warlord Storm of Fire
5 Scouts - Bolters
5 Scouts - Heavy bolter, bolters
5 Scouts - Heavy bolter, bolters
Razorback - TL Assault cannon, HK Razorback - TL Assault cannon, HK
It's some quite point efficient shooting, though my concern is I may have mixed my guns across infantry and vehicles too evenly. Pretty much any enemy unit can target something optimally. For example, if they want to remove my AT, there's both infantry Devs and vehicle Venerables to shoot at, instead of only 1 type of unit and denying the optimal use of half their weapons.
I would be more worried about your helblasters being toast Turn one if you deploy in the razorbacks as they will be the best infantry target on the field. Honestly when surrounded by vehicals primaris are a better choice as the heacy weapons are usually concentrating on the dreads, Also take a look at a deredeo love mine as it can hand out an invulnerable sace to units around it. Would really push up the survival rate of your hellblasters
Agreed. To be honest I've always thought that Lias was a trap - a way to put fragile, expensive troops in great danger. It's far too easy to defend against.
Lias himself is actually fine. He's a chapter master that doesn't cost CPs. Just don't use him to throw sternguard away killing IG screens, or leave 1/3 of your points out of the start of the game.
Mandragola wrote: Agreed. To be honest I've always thought that Lias was a trap - a way to put fragile, expensive troops in great danger. It's far too easy to defend against.
Lias himself is actually fine. He's a chapter master that doesn't cost CPs. Just don't use him to throw sternguard away killing IG screens, or leave 1/3 of your points out of the start of the game.
Killing IG screens is something only Sternguard and Command Squads and Aggressors do okay at compared to the rest of the codex. Taratula Sentry Guns are good too though.
For 37 points? Nothing does what the Taratula Sentry Gun does in our codex for that cheap.
I know you don't know the Codex very well (Vanguard can take TWO Chainswords?), but I'll give you a pass since it is in the FW index. For 37 points at minimum investment, you get:
T5
4 Wounds
BS4+
TL Heavy Bolter
The only caveat is that, if it has the TL Heavy Bolter, it has to target the nearest infantry if there are any. It's actually a really good deal.
Well I wouldn't expect a custards player to know the marine codex very well, much less the forge world options.
But to get this back on topic of how to make an atleast semi competative list with the vanilla marine codex.
I thinking post FAQ with beta deepstrike rules of giving my boys in blue a serious talking too and some stealth lessons and playing them as raven guard as with turn one deepstrike gone and only a few armies really being able to pull of a turn one charge I think the -1 to hit is more valuable than the fallback and shoot.
Anyone have any success with any whirlwind variants? Lost a game to tau because he hid his shield drone squad behind cover and I had no effective way to get to them. I was considering using the castellan as a way to clear out annoying units and provide fire support. Thunder fire may be a better alternative as it can use the tremor shells for versatility. The Techmarine could also be used to repair vehicles (which I do use)
Whirlwind are just chronically undergunned, which is a shame because I love the look of them. I haven't tried a thunderfire but it certainly looks a lot better on paper - it brings utility to the party, as you say. I know the Scorpius is more expensive (215pts with no frills!) but it does bring 6D3 S6 -2 2D shots to the table, with the all-important indirect ability. Might be worth considering. Or the quad rapier carrier for its twin profile might be just the ticket - 4d3 thunderfire shells for the drones, 4 shatter shells for the big targets...
RG is very dependant on who goes first. So like 50% of the time your CT helps you. I have seen too many times deliver their own units to the opponent only to get quickly annihilated.
Scorpius is amazing if you can keep it out of LOS (enough terrain). If you have enough bodies in front of them, you can take 2 and keep a leftenant near them and they will do work.
There was some whirlwind mathhammer done on the previous page. Point-for-point Castellans are better vs GEQ and MEQ, Vengeance vs TEQ, and Scorpius vs Rhino equivalents, so it depends on what they're hiding. If you're taking land speeders, then Castellan/Vengeance Whirlwinds become much better due to being able to benefit from the Datalink Telementry strat
Where are the rules for the quad launcher rapier for marines? It doesn't seem to be an option in the FW index, and neither does Grav. You just get the laser and quad heavy bolter options. EDIT: Found it in the FAQ. Cool. I'm going to paint one of these up for my crimson fists, as it's a decent cheap heavy support choice that does a job. The TFC is better if you can afford it though.
I think that basically the Scorpius is the best no-LoS weapon marines have. It's pricey but not all that pricey. It's obviosuly going to be a really high-priority target, but if you hide it and put other stuff in the way to screen it can do good work.
Interesting that GW don't seem to have messed up the "datalink telemetry" stratagem. You can't use it with the Scorpius, which is fair enough. Land speeders are pretty awful anyway so you wouldn't want to bother.
I used my Leviathan for the first time tonight. The FAQ giving him 3 HK missiles has tipped him over from "decent" to "really quite good" in my opinion. In tonight's game he spat death at things in a very pleasing fashion. Got himself locked in cc at one point, irritatingly, but got away again and was able to smash up what was left. I also used the wisdom of the ancients stratagem to help two hellblaster squads out, after trading my captain for a dreadknight grand master (I had drawn "assassinate" with "priority orders received"). Not a bad bit of kit all round.
The storm cannon arrays fill a niche that marines don't have too much of: good damage to things with invulnerable saves. For targets like Magnus you really want to shoot them a lot of times, not just wiht a few lascannons.
I'm making fun of the fact you said the Marine codex is GOOD and haven't bothered to read the entries carefully for the codex or index one bit. You've done similar things multiple times but the Vanguard comment was literally the worst one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Payne wrote: There was some whirlwind mathhammer done on the previous page. Point-for-point Castellans are better vs GEQ and MEQ, Vengeance vs TEQ, and Scorpius vs Rhino equivalents, so it depends on what they're hiding. If you're taking land speeders, then Castellan/Vengeance Whirlwinds become much better due to being able to benefit from the Datalink Telementry strat
The Castellan is better against the single wound Marines vs the Vengeance which does better against multi-wound dudes, and then the Scorpius against TEQ and CEQ.
Castellan I'm guessing is always better against Gaunts and Boyz so I didn't bother to do the math on that. So basically I feel the Vengeance version isn't worth investing to compared to a Scorpius if you're absolutely sure you can hide the model.
grouchoben wrote: Whirlwind are just chronically undergunned, which is a shame because I love the look of them. I haven't tried a thunderfire but it certainly looks a lot better on paper - it brings utility to the party, as you say. I know the Scorpius is more expensive (215pts with no frills!) but it does bring 6D3 S6 -2 2D shots to the table, with the all-important indirect ability. Might be worth considering. Or the quad rapier carrier for its twin profile might be just the ticket - 4d3 thunderfire shells for the drones, 4 shatter shells for the big targets...
If you're taking the Quad Launcher, remember their Thunderfire shells don't benefit from the Quake Shells Strategem, which is why I take a single Thunderfire but otherwise stick with Quad Launchers all the way.
I used my Leviathan for the first time tonight. The FAQ giving him 3 HK missiles has tipped him over from "decent" to "really quite good" in my opinion. In tonight's game he spat death at things in a very pleasing fashion. Got himself locked in cc at one point, irritatingly, but got away again and was able to smash up what was left. I also used the wisdom of the ancients stratagem to help two hellblaster squads out, after trading my captain for a dreadknight grand master (I had drawn "assassinate" with "priority orders received"). Not a bad bit of kit all round.
The storm cannon arrays fill a niche that marines don't have too much of: good damage to things with invulnerable saves. For targets like Magnus you really want to shoot them a lot of times, not just wiht a few lascannons.
...Ooh, I need to read this FAQ entry myself, since I'd almost talked myself into buying one already. 3 HKs on top is pretty nice other than once again having to figure out where to get the 18 points.
I'd this morning just given up on one of my Razors and some misc gear for 3 more Aggressors and the points to upgrade a Scout unit to Intercessors. You talked them up enough I'd been wanting to try a unit if possible, and the Aggressors keep the wound count and anti horde firepower about even with the lost tank. Now to scare up 18 more points somewhere...I'd love to pull 1 Aggressor and call it good, but 1 unit of 5 seems a heck of a lot worse than 2 units of 3. Edit: Decided to pull the second Aggressor unit and add in 5 more Scouts. I dislike the firepower loss, but ~60pts spare is hard to play with as Marines and the body count is nice.
Newest RG Leviathan list:
Spoiler:
Battalion for 8 total CPs
Captain - Thunder hammer, storm bolter
Lieutenant - Teeth of Terrra, storm bolter, warlord Storm of Fire
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been saddened by the Whirlwind pretty much every edition since I bought one in 2nd. It's never been a bad tank for the cost, it's just always suffered from using up a limited Heavy slot in an army book with lots of other good Heavy options.
Just been reading through this thread when I should be working, and noticed there's been a bit of a discussion about Lias in the last few pages. I've been running Lias+RG for quite a while but with the FAQ changes I've decided to try a couple of new units, dropping Lias in favour for just pure-gunline, with less sneaky-stuff on his part.
Here's what I've come up with:
Spoiler:
**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard
+ HQ +
Captain [5 PL, 74pts]: Chainsword, Teeth of Terra
Librarian [6 PL, 96pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Psychic Scourge, 4) Fury of the Ancients, 5) Psychic Fortress, 6) Null Zone, Boltgun, Force stave
Fire Raptor Assault Gunship [19 PL, 362pts] . Two quad heavy bolters: 2x Quad heavy bolter . Two twin lascannons: 2x Twin lascannon
++ Total: [106 PL, 1997pts] ++
The only thing I think I can change would be to add a couple of Scout squads to act as a DS buffer, but would like some feedback before I buy anything. I'm not 100% on the Terminators, again due to the DS changes; removing them would free up points for the aforementioned Scouts but on the other hand, would it be sensible to have some sort of DS harrassment unit?
Termies are terrible, run anything else (SftS VV with jump packs can get reliable t1 charges or john woo them up with twin plasma pistols for t2 26" screen proof shooting that will die and give up all the points if you don't get t1...)
You will need scouts to prep-field for lias. No deepstrike until turn 2 means you gotta be able to clear a landing area of preserve one.
Mixing combi-plas, plas and las in your tacs leads to a schizophrenic unit which either wants to move or hang back and shoot.
What are your goals for this list? You trying to have fun with your buds or compete in tournaments?
I don't understand the whirlwind hate that some places seem to give it (not saying here), compared to a basic pred with just its autocannon the whirlwinds with vengance get 72" range with no Los needed for 26 pts cheaper. Yes the predator can get laz cannons or heavy bolters to make if better but more expensive, but I love the autocannons on the preds now. 3 whirlwinds will cost 312 pts, put a cheap leutinant near them you have an effective and cheap detachment for long range fire Support. Got to love it.
Termies are terrible, run anything else (SftS VV with jump packs can get reliable t1 charges or john woo them up with twin plasma pistols for t2 26" screen proof shooting that will die and give up all the points if you don't get t1...)
You will need scouts to prep-field for lias. No deepstrike until turn 2 means you gotta be able to clear a landing area of preserve one.
Mixing combi-plas, plas and las in your tacs leads to a schizophrenic unit which either wants to move or hang back and shoot.
What are your goals for this list? You trying to have fun with your buds or compete in tournaments?
90 points? Damn, I've already placed an order for one.
In terms of the list, it's a semi-competitive "fun with my buds" list. I originally started it with the Marine Strikeforce set, something I could work on while I was at uni, and built on it from there. It's not designed to sweet tournaments or crush competitive lists but I hope it could put up a good fight in a casual setting.
I've had mixed success with the Termies, I agree that they're not stellar, but they seem like a nice distraction. I think the success came with the mass drops from Lias and his cronies, but with them gone maybe I should drop these too.
I had a look over VV, they seem to have the issue that once you kit them out they come out rather expensive for a model which dies as easily as a regular Marine, especially if I go John Woo as you said. What would be a good loadout for them? I'm considering Sergeant with PW/Relic Blade, couple of guys with pistols/Storm Shields and couple of guys with PW?
With the Tacticals, should I just split them into 2x5 units, 1 with Las and the other with Plasma?
Edit: Just doing some quick mental maths so it may be a bit out. If I drop the Termies and free up some points elsewhere this would accomodate the Fire Raptor's bastardly points increase as well as create some room for some VV?
Azuza001 wrote: I don't understand the whirlwind hate that some places seem to give it (not saying here), compared to a basic pred with just its autocannon the whirlwinds with vengance get 72" range with no Los needed for 26 pts cheaper. Yes the predator can get laz cannons or heavy bolters to make if better but more expensive, but I love the autocannons on the preds now. 3 whirlwinds will cost 312 pts, put a cheap leutinant near them you have an effective and cheap detachment for long range fire Support. Got to love it.
Compare that to a basalisk or manticore though. Kind of a joke by comparison isn't it?
My problem with the Whirlwind is its overall damage output. Sure, it might not always be bad on paper (compared to some things) but i always feel disappointed by it.
3 whirlwinds working together could do some work, but then its all those points tied up in one place, with a captain and/or lieutenant, that can get tied up in combat relatively easily due to being in a marine list.
Oh... And they don't get chapter tactics. -.-
As much as i want to run a couple of tanks and flyers, i can't help but just look at contemptors and think... i might as well just take those instead.
Kdash wrote: My problem with the Whirlwind is its overall damage output. Sure, it might not always be bad on paper (compared to some things) but i always feel disappointed by it.
3 whirlwinds working together could do some work, but then its all those points tied up in one place, with a captain and/or lieutenant, that can get tied up in combat relatively easily due to being in a marine list.
Oh... And they don't get chapter tactics. -.-
As much as i want to run a couple of tanks and flyers, i can't help but just look at contemptors and think... i might as well just take those instead.
With only dreadnaughts getting chapter tactics, marine vehicals realy don't bring enough to the field for me.
Heck now with the 3 datasheet rule killshot may aswell not exsist.
Dreadnaughts just do it better BS2+ same T7 a couple less wounds but
Contemptor, Relic contemptor, Contemptor mortis, Deredeo and Leviathan all have invulnerable saves.
I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.
I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?
Edit.
Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.
Hey guys I have two Post FAQ Ultramarines 2000 point lists I would appreciate feedback on. (Both are quite similar)
The first is mono SM and the second has a battalion of Guard. With Adept of the Codex and 11 starting CP in the mono list I'm not actually sure the Guard is required.
Ultramarines 2000 - 11 CP
Spoiler:
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
LOW
Roboute Gulliman - Warlord - Adept of the Codex - 400
Battalion
HQ Captain - Jump Pack, Master-crafted Boltgun, Thunder hammer, The Sanctic Halo - 117
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 130
(Veil of Time / Might of Heroes / Null Zone)
Can't you move a few units arround and add an LT to the first list to gain a CP and also the ability to reroll somewhere other than the Gman castle build. They can throw in a nice counter charge and allow you a secondary caslte on an objective
Azuza001 wrote: I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.
I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?
Edit.
Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.
The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.
So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.
What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?
My sarcastic answer which is probably all too true right now is the departures list for the train, plane home after day one.
Mildly more constructive, ravenguard and spam forgeworld dreads for back field, combine with intercessors for midfield objectives and scouts to make space for my VV and srike SftS.
Is my plan.
Dynas wrote: So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.
What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?
Well the way I see it, most of the dangerous Deep Strike is nerfed so screens will be less important. Therefore I plan to go right back to Lias bomb, because people aren't going to expect it at all. Shock factor is good in this case as long as I bring the Ancient with the Relic Banner like I plan.
Otherwise I'm sticking with trying to make our artillery work in a secondary detachment. There's only so many things you can do at 2000 points though. My Lias bomb is nearly 900 points after all.
Dynas wrote: So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.
What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?
Well the way I see it, most of the dangerous Deep Strike is nerfed so screens will be less important. Therefore I plan to go right back to Lias bomb, because people aren't going to expect it at all. Shock factor is good in this case as long as I bring the Ancient with the Relic Banner like I plan.
Otherwise I'm sticking with trying to make our artillery work in a secondary detachment. There's only so many things you can do at 2000 points though. My Lias bomb is nearly 900 points after all.
You really believe that you can make enough of that 1k thats on the field survive untill your turn 2 thats potentially 2 rounds of the other player and if they wipe you out you auto loose?
Kdash wrote:With BobbyG, i don't really think you need to worry about adding Guard for CP/CP farm.
In this case, i'd rather take the Leviathan over the Guard every time.
Thanks for reaffirming what I was thinking. The Leviathan (especially with Tigurius' -1 to hit and potentially Might of Heroes or Armour of Contempt to keep him alive) is much scarier.
Ice_can wrote:Can't you move a few units arround and add an LT to the first list to gain a CP and also the ability to reroll somewhere other than the Gman castle build. They can throw in a nice counter charge and allow you a secondary caslte on an objective
Points are tight as is and the JP Captain is already giving rerolls to hit to the scout bikers. Aside from the scout bikers and scouts moving around I imagine the remainder of the list will stay near Guilliman for a majority of the game lessening the need for the LT. Something to keep in mind if I ever add more mobility to the list however - thanks!
Dynas wrote: So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.
What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?
Well the way I see it, most of the dangerous Deep Strike is nerfed so screens will be less important. Therefore I plan to go right back to Lias bomb, because people aren't going to expect it at all. Shock factor is good in this case as long as I bring the Ancient with the Relic Banner like I plan.
Otherwise I'm sticking with trying to make our artillery work in a secondary detachment. There's only so many things you can do at 2000 points though. My Lias bomb is nearly 900 points after all.
You really believe that you can make enough of that 1k thats on the field survive untill your turn 2 thats potentially 2 rounds of the other player and if they wipe you out you auto loose?
It's doable for for the most part. I'm still using Scouts and Intercessors and Tarantula Sentry Guns are a super cheap method of denial while being able to contribute to the fight.
Azuza001 wrote: I don't understand the whirlwind hate that some places seem to give it (not saying here), compared to a basic pred with just its autocannon the whirlwinds with vengance get 72" range with no Los needed for 26 pts cheaper. Yes the predator can get laz cannons or heavy bolters to make if better but more expensive, but I love the autocannons on the preds now. 3 whirlwinds will cost 312 pts, put a cheap leutinant near them you have an effective and cheap detachment for long range fire Support. Got to love it.
Compare that to a basalisk or manticore though. Kind of a joke by comparison isn't it?
Indeed it is!
3 Vengeance Whirlwinds with a cap, shooting at a Predator, do 4.6 damage. All together. That's 386pts. Whereas spending 6pts less on 2 laspreds nets you 10damage on the same target, and scale up much better against tougher opponents (2.6 vs the same 10 damage against a Russ, for example).
Sorta related to Space Marines: the Sternguard Veteran box is way better than I ever expected it'd be. I've always wondered why you'd spend $50 on 5 models when you can spend $40 on 10, but now I sorta know. Basic marines look so dinky and cruddy compared to the swagged out Sternguard Vets.
In regards to Lias I use him more often to protect my Devastators honestly. They can't shoot them turn one, deploy in my zone turn two and it's like they were in Rhinos only safer. You still have the option of waiting till turn 2 if you need, but most of the time there is no point.
Chapter Master stratagem I do use. Almost every game I play I end up with left over CP at the end anyway, or I use it on erroneous things. Biggest reason I like it is if you're using plasma against things with -1 to hit. Then there is no downside to rerolling 2's and it's a lot better than just rerolling ones.
Tarantulas are beasts. I love them but usually take the twin Assault Cannons for like 45? points. Lots of dakka, good denial, and no restriction on what they shoot.
Scout bikes have come out looking really good. They offer a lot of shots which is something we usually lack, plus great mobility. I have been counts as using my regular bikers though since I don't have the models.
grouchoben wrote: Are you sure there's no resyriction on asscan tarantulas? Pretty sure they have to shoot nearest target. Wasnt it faq'd?
Wasn't any FAQ as far as I know.
If you can justify the limited range, Assault Cannons all the way. Otherwise, I like the safety net of an extra foot, and it isn't like Twin Assault Cannons are still gonna stay cheapish. I'm honestly expecting another price hike on them.
With my Grey Knights pretty well crushed by GW, I'm ally shopping again. Does anyone know what are SM's best options for dealing with high T, good invulnerables save monsters like Mortarion and Tesseract Vaults?
Autocannons seem like they might work but I can't find any good platforms (4 shots on a Dread is a but too inefficient a way to get there).
With my Grey Knights pretty well crushed by GW, I'm ally shopping again. Does anyone know what are SM's best options for dealing with high T, good invulnerables save monsters like Mortarion and Tesseract Vaults?
Autocannons seem like they might work but I can't find any good platforms (4 shots on a Dread is a but too inefficient a way to get there).
You're gonna need to double up on the Autocannons there obviously. Otherwise, go for Dark Angels and ham up on the Strategem to make the Plasma stuff 3 damage.
Azuza001 wrote: I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.
I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?
Edit.
Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.
The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.
The big issue with Predator Autocannons is AP-1. Most units with enough wounds for the damage of an Autocannon to matter have saves of 4+ or better. The lack of AP means that 4 shots on average is really only expected to pierce once. Really, the autocannon either won't have the AP or the S to matter against big targets or will do so much damage the excess is often wasted. If you want a more TAC Predator, Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolters is a nice choice.
However: The only way I can think it will work is with Kill Shot + Storm of Fire which would mean you'll be shooting Autocannons that do 4 damage a pop, wound T7 on 3+ with wound rolls of 5+ being AP-2. The math has too many variables for me to account for, but I think it sounds pretty nice.
Azuza001 wrote: I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.
I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?
Edit.
Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.
The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.
The big issue with Predator Autocannons is AP-1. Most units with enough wounds for the damage of an Autocannon to matter have saves of 4+ or better. The lack of AP means that 4 shots on average is really only expected to pierce once. Really, the autocannon either won't have the AP or the S to matter against big targets or will do so much damage the excess is often wasted. If you want a more TAC Predator, Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolters is a nice choice.
However: The only way I can think it will work is with Kill Shot + Storm of Fire which would mean you'll be shooting Autocannons that do 4 damage a pop, wound T7 on 3+ with wound rolls of 5+ being AP-2. The math has too many variables for me to account for, but I think it sounds pretty nice.
The Autocannon doesn't need more AP because of the number of shots. You're looking a gift horse in the mouth when its teeth are actually fine.
Azuza001 wrote: I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.
I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?
Edit.
Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.
The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.
The big issue with Predator Autocannons is AP-1. Most units with enough wounds for the damage of an Autocannon to matter have saves of 4+ or better. The lack of AP means that 4 shots on average is really only expected to pierce once. Really, the autocannon either won't have the AP or the S to matter against big targets or will do so much damage the excess is often wasted. If you want a more TAC Predator, Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolters is a nice choice.
However: The only way I can think it will work is with Kill Shot + Storm of Fire which would mean you'll be shooting Autocannons that do 4 damage a pop, wound T7 on 3+ with wound rolls of 5+ being AP-2. The math has too many variables for me to account for, but I think it sounds pretty nice.
The Autocannon doesn't need more AP because of the number of shots. You're looking a gift horse in the mouth when its teeth are actually fine.
I'm not saying it needs buffs, I'm just wondering what units can be effectively slapped in the face by an Autocannon to make it worth more than a Twin Lascannon. Against T7, 3+ models, the Lascannon outshines it completely even if the Autocannon fires double shots on average.
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. Not too interested in them. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll see about getting myself an actual captain.
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off though. Deploying in reserve was a safe way to play since there's always a risk to go second, and now your opponent has TWO TURNS to set his army up, whereas the person who goes second only has one. It makes 
