How about slashing the guards cost, whilst also reducing their melee capability to almost 0. Then change their frenzy rule to restore them to their current stat line when their tyrant dies. Makes the opponent have to strongly weigh up if its worth killing that tyrant before taking down the guard?
The Swarmlord is just poorly designed. And so are Tyrant Guard. A better rule for Tyrant Guard would simply be that you cannot target a hive tyrant unless it is closer than the tyrant guard, or has wings. So Tyrants get character rules protection.
Secondly, the Swarmlord should offer passive buffs based on radius like all the other HQs. Adding 1" to movement/advance/charge for models that begin the phase within 12" of the Swarmlord, as well as offering Onslaught automatically to models within 6". I would suggest also that the warlord trait should be scrapped, with him getting a free "Act of Faith" movement at the start of each turn.
Considering that flyrant spam has dominated the last month of ITC major events, more than guard, dark reapers, pox walkers and Gman combined, you can be 100% sure that they will be nerfed.
I think that they are going to be 1 per detachment, or getting pushed way over 200 points.
Negative. The only nerf I'm expecting is the one everyone knows they should get.
No more free MRC. the MST are a bit stronger so they will be less points than those, but putting them at 16 points would be fair (takes em to 20 with toxin sacs).
Nothing with GW is 100% so don't get too keen on very many big changes with the up coming FAQ. Realistically changing the MRC to 10 pts or something is likely. GW still wants to sell models and spamming models makes them money.
axisofentropy wrote: Y'all see the Adepticon standings? Tyranids 3 of top 4, 6 of top 10.
I'm calling it, +20 point on wings and 20 points on MRC.
Wings are fine (the problem lies in a Walkrant not having access to things like 2+ armor save IMO), MRC shouldn't be free
2+ save is a thing of the past.
Wings should be balanced in point cost, and on a tyrant the fly keyword and mobility are worth much more than 27 points. I think that at 45 points, we would have a real choice between a walkrant or a flyrant.
axisofentropy wrote: Y'all see the Adepticon standings? Tyranids 3 of top 4, 6 of top 10.
I'm calling it, +20 point on wings and 20 points on MRC.
Wings are fine (the problem lies in a Walkrant not having access to things like 2+ armor save IMO), MRC shouldn't be free
2+ save is a thing of the past.
Wings should be balanced in point cost, and on a tyrant the fly keyword and mobility are worth much more than 27 points. I think that at 45 points, we would have a real choice between a walkrant or a flyrant.
- The crap Warlord trait does not matter. He is so dangerous that a clued-up opponent is going to kill him. Making him Warlord practically guarantees your opponent a bonus VP for doing what they’re going to do. Make a tightly embedded Neurothrope or Malanthrope (much less vulnerable to snipers and especially Vindicares!) your Warlord, and keep it alive.
- Putting Genestealers in infestations and hoping for first turn doesn’t work for me. Kraken strat works in movement phases. I want them to be able to run a foot and a half up the table, then move again.
killerpenguin wrote: I remember hearing about this guy who did well in some tournament with a tervigon. Does anybody have a link to the list or thread discussing this? I’ve recently acquired a tervigon and would like to know it’s uses in a competitive setting.
Maybe you're thinking of Geoff 'InControl' Robinson? His Tervigon Kronos list did well in practice games IIRC, then ran into a brick wall at the LVO, placed #350 or something like that.
IIRC there was a rumor that Hive Tyrants (and all those other expensive HQ of other factions) will get a 1 per detachment restriction like Tau Commanders. I see that as very probable.
Lance845 wrote: I agree with wings taking up a weapon slot and giving them a Scytal-like weapon profile.
If you have to choose between more weapon options or locking one of your weapons and mobility it becomes a real choice.
I'd hate to rip arms off my flyrants. Just a point cost increase to represent how god a heavy tank with 9" deploy from reserves is
Not wanting to have to change models to represent WYSIWYG, which is not a rule in the rule book, is a crap reason to fight against the better fix. Trading modularity for speed is a fair trade and arguably what Flyrants should have always been.
Flyrants, Mawlocs, and Mucolids... as far as the eye can see...
Looks like everyone is recycling elements of their 7th edition list. Besides having the models available, I'm guessing the idea is to "null deploy" using the bombs as the on-table presence (since they never give up points) and rely on the ability to drop everything else in on the enemy as a means to mitigate the infamous alpha strike. List #4 is fairly interesting, with the Jormungandr Warriors being dropped via Raveners. Also neat to see a bit of GSC presence in some of the lists, albeit mostly in the form of Magi.
As an aside, I find it interesting to see such heavy use of Leviathan rather than Kraken. It makes sense given most of the army is comprised of synapse creatures, but given how popular Kraken is otherwise (and how useful it is for flying models) it is somewhat surprising to see it not make the cut.
Flyrants, Mawlocs, and Mucolids... as far as the eye can see...
Looks like everyone is recycling elements of their 7th edition list. Besides having the models available, I'm guessing the idea is to "null deploy" using the bombs as the on-table presence (since they never give up points) and rely on the ability to drop everything else in on the enemy as a means to mitigate the infamous alpha strike. List #4 is fairly interesting, with the Jormungandr Warriors being dropped via Raveners. Also neat to see a bit of GSC presence in some of the lists, albeit mostly in the form of Magi.
As an aside, I find it interesting to see such heavy use of Leviathan rather than Kraken. It makes sense given most of the army is comprised of synapse creatures, but given how popular Kraken is otherwise (and how useful it is for flying models) it is somewhat surprising to see it not make the cut.
Yeah, I'm guessing everybody wanted to go "counter-meta". Krakon has been doing so well, that folks are ready for it. Leviathan is the "go to" for Warriors, and Tyrants...I saw one dude ran a Malecepter...as his Warlord! More variation than you usually see in a big Tourney.
EldarExarch wrote: Why do tournament players have to ruin everything....
They dont, they are the ones that shows the flaws and imbalances of the rules.
No they don't. They only show extreme exploitive power combos. They never show whats wrong with a unit that needs to be bought up.
In what capacity did any nid player in a tourney show what was wrong with the nid dex in 7th? If Tourny players were the go to for information Flyrants and mucolids would have just gotten nerfed.
EldarExarch wrote: Why do tournament players have to ruin everything....
They dont, they are the ones that shows the flaws and imbalances of the rules.
No they don't. They only show extreme exploitive power combos. They never show whats wrong with a unit that needs to be bought up.
In what capacity did any nid player in a tourney show what was wrong with the nid dex in 7th? If Tourny players were the go to for information Flyrants and mucolids would have just gotten nerfed.
EldarExarch wrote: Why do tournament players have to ruin everything....
They dont, they are the ones that shows the flaws and imbalances of the rules.
No they don't. They only show extreme exploitive power combos. They never show whats wrong with a unit that needs to be bought up.
In what capacity did any nid player in a tourney show what was wrong with the nid dex in 7th? If Tourny players were the go to for information Flyrants and mucolids would have just gotten nerfed.
"Extreme exploited" so....... the flaws?
A flaw. Only one. Ever.
Will a tourney show whats wrong with lictors or deathleaper or the pheromone trail stratagem? How about Crisis suits? Rail guns on a hammerhead? Flayed Ones? No. Because none of those things will ever be in a tournament.
For what it is worth, the Adepticon missions favored Flyrants a bit more than other mission packs, and they favored mucolids a great deal more.
I agree a points bump for MRC would probably fix it. Maybe a points bump on wings, but the problem with wings has more to do with how bad a walkrant is. A better approach to wings would be to fix the walkrant (Tough 8 or 4 extra wounds or 2+ BS or something). Making a flyrant as points inefficient as a walkrant isn't the answer.
Also, my favorite list in the top 16 was Juice's. I generally find the tone of the long war podcast and batreps to be a little annoying, but the list is less spammy than the others, and the sort of list I would feel proud running. Here is a batrep featuring it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWgBVnMCdMo
Tag’s got the right idea. Adepticon wasn’t about how bonkers broken Flyrant spam is (although it is good) - it was more about the missions. Tyranids weren’t bringing flyrants to not bring Genestealers because they wanted to bring the opposite of what players expected. They did it because the missions dictated that mass obsec would be a great list, so Tyranids said “hey lets bring un-Alpha-able anti-infantry weapons!”
And making the Flyrant as unviable as the walkrant is also not the answer. The real issue for the walkrant is he just isn’t durable enough for his points and he isn’t going anywhere. Mobility is king. Deep striking helps a lot with that too.
Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if the FAQ features nothing about flyrants. They haven’t been dominating the European scene for that long and it’s not like GW Is looking at Adepticon and saying “ok any last minute tweaks before we send this thing to the presses?”
Walkrants are not unviable. They have all the same durability as a flyrant but with no deepstrike and a lower movement. Yes, alpha strikes can be a problem, but they can bring tyrant guard to support them in a way flyrants can't (because they will outpace them).
Tyrants of all varieties (including Swarmlord) could use a few extra wounds at best.
Swarmlord needs a price drop and a real passive aura buff.
Lance845 wrote: Walkrants are not unviable. They have all the same durability as a flyrant but with no deepstrike and a lower movement. Yes, alpha strikes can be a problem, but they can bring tyrant guard to support them in a way flyrants can't (because they will outpace them).
Tyrants of all varieties (including Swarmlord) could use a few extra wounds at best.
Swarmlord needs a price drop and a real passive aura buff.
Surviability and alpha strike IS the problem. Beeing on the table turn 1 drops tyrants survivability significant.
What is an backfield Tyrant doing for you a Neurothrope, Malanthrope or Tyranid Prime cant do?
With guard beeing at +111 points, making it a lot more expensive too. If tyrant guard would work like Tau shield drones, eating much more fire it would be worth it, but actually my opponents just focus the guards first and then the Tyrant because of the lower toughness and no invuln (3x lascan/rockets can be enough to kil them), or ignore him at all.
The cc threat of a tyrant + guards is okish, but for around 300 points I would use other units, like genestealers, warriors, more shooty guys or flyrants [edit]
What is an backfield Tyrant doing for you a Neurothrope, Malanthrope or Tyranid Prime cant do?
The Tyrant can bring a credible long(ish) ranged firepower to the artillery party. Neither of the 'thropes can really contribute offensively while sitting in the backfield and the Prime caps out at 3 S5 shots for shooting. The Tyrant can throw a few S9 shots or a mixture of S7 shots from 24-36'' away, which meshes perfectly with Exocrines and Hive Guard range-bands.
So far I haven't actually lost a walking Tyrant as part of an artillery battery. Their 4++ has made them a rather unappealing first target when all of the surrounding creatures have no such defense (tend to run him with a battery of Exocrines and HVC 'fexes).
Strat_N8 wrote: The Tyrant can bring a credible long(ish) ranged firepower to the artillery party. Neither of the 'thropes can really contribute offensively while sitting in the backfield and the Prime caps out at 3 S5 shots for shooting. The Tyrant can throw a few S9 shots or a mixture of S7 shots from 24-36'' away, which meshes perfectly with Exocrines and Hive Guard range-bands.
I prefer more Hiveguard and one Neurothrope over the tyrant on foot. 214 Points for untargetable synapse and 6 s8 shots ap-2 d3 damage vs 180-190 points shooting d3 s9 shots ap-2 3 damage. If you kit the tyrant shooty, then he sucks in close combat, and you should stay out of it. If you give him a cc weapon, his shooting is mediocre.
So far I haven't actually lost a walking Tyrant as part of an artillery battery. Their 4++ has made them a rather unappealing first target when all of the surrounding creatures have no such defense (tend to run him with a battery of Exocrines and HVC 'fexes).
I have lost some indeed. But only if my synapse coverage could get disturbed by doing this, giving me targeting issues. Else my opponents dont care about him most of the time, killing everything what threats the mission goals, like objectives or serious damage to key units. If he looks like beeing a problem, he is dealt with fast.
My local meta is very adaptive and tactical failures with synaptic coverage or poor placement are punished hard immediately.
luke1705 wrote: Tag’s got the right idea. Adepticon wasn’t about how bonkers broken Flyrant spam is (although it is good) - it was more about the missions. Tyranids weren’t bringing flyrants to not bring Genestealers because they wanted to bring the opposite of what players expected. They did it because the missions dictated that mass obsec would be a great list, so Tyranids said “hey lets bring un-Alpha-able anti-infantry weapons!”
And making the Flyrant as unviable as the walkrant is also not the answer. The real issue for the walkrant is he just isn’t durable enough for his points and he isn’t going anywhere. Mobility is king. Deep striking helps a lot with that too.
Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if the FAQ features nothing about flyrants. They haven’t been dominating the European scene for that long and it’s not like GW Is looking at Adepticon and saying “ok any last minute tweaks before we send this thing to the presses?”
Are you sure? they won one of the UK's largest events back in Jan, literally the same list as what has just won Adepticon,done pretty well at some events before that and at the last few events after that they have done quite well as well, coming second in Englands ETC event last weekend.
Someone raised - here or in the Chaos thread? - that horde armies do well in tourneys by camping on Objectives for three turns? That strikes me as a really good point - armies that depend on firing a really big gun for five turns lose nearly half their firepower when a horde clogs up the sequence of play
tag8833 wrote: For what it is worth, the Adepticon missions favored Flyrants a bit more than other mission packs, and they favored mucolids a great deal more.
I did not keep up with news and missed most of the adepticon coverage and build up. What in particular in the mission pack favored flyrants and mucolids, aside from the obvious trash deploy with mucolids/deep strike flyrants strategy?
I don't think we are going to see a major change to Flyrants, unless there is a 40k wide Tau style HQ limit. I think a cost increase for MCR is reasonable, but would be somewhat surprised if GW was willing to make adjustments based on a single strong showing.
Change of subject.
I ran my Behemoth/Kronos list a local last weekend, took first, which was nice. Had about 10 players, something like half of them brought solid armies. Format was ITC, with decent terrain on about half the tables.
First game was against Blood Angels. He had a fairly standard list, with a big Sang. Guard unit and a big Death Company unit, plus some scouts and Interceptors, and the normal pile of characters. No vehicles. It looked like an even game, with us trading dropping in alpha strike units for a few turns, then he failed the drop charge with the Death Company. This meant that my devilgaunts got to nuke the Death Company without them doing anything meaningful, ended with me tabling him on turn 4.
Second game was against a skilled elder player who decided to bring a messing around list. It was a pile of DE/Eldar/Ynnair special characters supporting the Yncarne, with a handful of DE infantry to screen. He didn't have the durability to deal with devilgaunts, much less the rest of the list, for an easy win.
Third game was against a IG gunline (infantry squads, artillery tanks, Pask, so forth) supported by three Custodes bike Captains. Traded my drop units for the Captains + most of the screen, managed to tag some tanks with the handful of remaining 'stealers to shut them down for a few turns, ended up winning a narrow victory.
I have been playing this list for the last few months and feel like I have a solid handle on it. I need to swap small screening 'gaunt unit into the Kronos detachment and stick one of the ripper units in the Behemoth, but I'm being lazy about repainting the rippers.
I normally drop in two waves, with the devilgaunts coming in alone and clearing chaff to enable the charges, or coming in after my opponent has made his drops. Against Eldar and Chaos soup I often drop everything at once. I normally use Onslaught on Hive Guard to counter Dark Reapers, which has worked about 50/50 for me.
The Trygons tend to either win games for me or do nothing, depending on if they make their first charge (8" rerollable is solid but not locked in) and on how well the Swarmlord makes saves. If Swarmy can absorb an entire turn of fire, leaving the Trygon's untouched, they get to make a charge and eat something for me the turn after they drop.
I find that aggressive use of my Neurothropes can swing games. With the current smite rules I get 2-3 D3 mortals (3 tries at smite and one shriek) out of them, which is enough to seriously dent something, IF I play them forward enough to have targets for them.
The big thing I have problems with right now is superheavies and IG tanks. I beat Shadowsword lists by killing everything that isn't the Shadowsword and keeping my Hive Guard out of line of sight to avoid being tabled. IG/soup armor goes similarly, except I'm relying on the artillery tanks that don't care about of line of sight to roll badly enough not to kill the Hive Guard.
I am considering some list changes:
(A) Do nothing.
(B) Run the Behemoth as a Spearhead, dropping the Neurothrope and changing the Hive Guard to a single 6 man unit in order to get a third Trygon.
(C) Switch to Jorgm. by turning the Trygon's into Raveners, use the spare points to add in a unit of Shock Guard.
Tyran wrote: IIRC there was a rumor that Hive Tyrants (and all those other expensive HQ of other factions) will get a 1 per detachment restriction like Tau Commanders. I see that as very probable.
I am fine with this. In fact, it should be a "Universal Rule" across all armies. That, and or going back to the old WHFB 8th no more than 25% of an army can be Heroes and Lords (i.e: Characters and/or HQ choices)
Flyrants, Mawlocs, and Mucolids... as far as the eye can see...
Looks like everyone is recycling elements of their 7th edition list. Besides having the models available, I'm guessing the idea is to "null deploy" using the bombs as the on-table presence (since they never give up points) and rely on the ability to drop everything else in on the enemy as a means to mitigate the infamous alpha strike. List #4 is fairly interesting, with the Jormungandr Warriors being dropped via Raveners. Also neat to see a bit of GSC presence in some of the lists, albeit mostly in the form of Magi.
As an aside, I find it interesting to see such heavy use of Leviathan rather than Kraken. It makes sense given most of the army is comprised of synapse creatures, but given how popular Kraken is otherwise (and how useful it is for flying models) it is somewhat surprising to see it not make the cut.
Yup. I knew Leviathan was viable. Kraken is good if you are going GS or hormies, other than that better off with Leviathan for 16% increase survivability. The Jorm Null deployment to mitigate Alpha strike is smart. I started tracking my Win/Loss record on going first versus 2nd, and it their is a clear disparity that favors whoever goes first as most people know.
EldarExarch wrote: Why do tournament players have to ruin everything....
They dont, they are the ones that shows the flaws and imbalances of the rules.
No they don't. They only show extreme exploitive power combos. They never show whats wrong with a unit that needs to be bought up.
In what capacity did any nid player in a tourney show what was wrong with the nid dex in 7th? If Tourny players were the go to for information Flyrants and mucolids would have just gotten nerfed.
"Extreme exploited" so....... the flaws?
A flaw. Only one. Ever.
Will a tourney show whats wrong with lictors or deathleaper or the pheromone trail stratagem? How about Crisis suits? Rail guns on a hammerhead? Flayed Ones? No. Because none of those things will ever be in a tournament.
Taking it out of context eh?
Im saying, tournament players dont exploit the rules, the play by them, if the rules say you can take 20 of the most powerful units and NOTHING ELSE.. how is that an exploit? Thats a flaw of the "core" rules (I never said anything about showing flaws in units).
The rules say play what you want..... players playing units that will make them win in a game that is designed to have a winner and loser, especially in a competitive environment isnt "ruining the game"... they chose to play in that environment, you can choose to not play with those players.
Tyran wrote: IIRC there was a rumor that Hive Tyrants (and all those other expensive HQ of other factions) will get a 1 per detachment restriction like Tau Commanders. I see that as very probable.
I am fine with this. In fact, it should be a "Universal Rule" across all armies. That, and or going back to the old WHFB 8th no more than 25% of an army can be Heroes and Lords (i.e: Characters and/or HQ choices)
Flyrants, Mawlocs, and Mucolids... as far as the eye can see...
Looks like everyone is recycling elements of their 7th edition list. Besides having the models available, I'm guessing the idea is to "null deploy" using the bombs as the on-table presence (since they never give up points) and rely on the ability to drop everything else in on the enemy as a means to mitigate the infamous alpha strike. List #4 is fairly interesting, with the Jormungandr Warriors being dropped via Raveners. Also neat to see a bit of GSC presence in some of the lists, albeit mostly in the form of Magi.
As an aside, I find it interesting to see such heavy use of Leviathan rather than Kraken. It makes sense given most of the army is comprised of synapse creatures, but given how popular Kraken is otherwise (and how useful it is for flying models) it is somewhat surprising to see it not make the cut.
Yup. I knew Leviathan was viable. Kraken is good if you are going GS or hormies, other than that better off with Leviathan for 16% increase survivability. The Jorm Null deployment to mitigate Alpha strike is smart. I started tracking my Win/Loss record on going first versus 2nd, and it their is a clear disparity that favors whoever goes first as most people know.
I was too surprised by it, i still like Kraken my self and will still play it, just my style, the always 6+++ is very nice, especially on MC's with multi wounds, saving 1 could mean the difference of being at full strength or not, or forcing them to shoot the same target more. 16% over many units over many turns can help.
Will a tourney show whats wrong with lictors or deathleaper or the pheromone trail stratagem? How about Crisis suits? Rail guns on a hammerhead? Flayed Ones? No. Because none of those things will ever be in a tournament.
Taking it out of context eh?
Im saying, tournament players dont exploit the rules, the play by them, if the rules say you can take 20 of the most powerful units and NOTHING ELSE.. how is that an exploit? Thats a flaw of the "core" rules (I never said anything about showing flaws in units).
The rules say play what you want..... players playing units that will make them win in a game that is designed to have a winner and loser, especially in a competitive environment isnt "ruining the game"... they chose to play in that environment, you can choose to not play with those players.
I never said tourney players were ruining the game. I said they were a bad place to gather data for testing and balancing.
My point stands. Tournys will only ever show the one flaw. How this combo or this unit is brokenly powerful. It doesn't address why the other options are not taken. It never shines a light on what needs to be bought up. And the things that need to be bought down are shown in a disproportionate light. Looking at adepticon as a test bed hive tyrants need a massive nerf. Which just isn't true. But thats what that "play test" says.
tag8833 wrote: For what it is worth, the Adepticon missions favored Flyrants a bit more than other mission packs, and they favored mucolids a great deal more.
I did not keep up with news and missed most of the adepticon coverage and build up. What in particular in the mission pack favored flyrants and mucolids, aside from the obvious trash deploy with mucolids/deep strike flyrants strategy?
1) Kill points (the points value of units completely destroyed) were huge in the missions. It was a Kill Point differential. Mucolids don't give up KP, so a Tyrant drop list with mucolids has less KP to give, and can drop in and harvest some then play keep-away.
2) The missions had progressive components so mobility was huge.
3) In ITC champs missions Flyrants hemorrhage points. They give up KP, they give up head hunter points, they give up kingslayer points, they give up big game hunter points. Meanwhile lots of Eldar lists give up practically no points. So in the standard meta that I (and probably most of us) are used to, there are huge downsides to spamming flryants. The adepticon missions essentially removed all of the downsides, and at the same time incentivized a meta with lots of light infantry where flyrants can shine the most.
tag8833 wrote: For what it is worth, the Adepticon missions favored Flyrants a bit more than other mission packs, and they favored mucolids a great deal more.
I did not keep up with news and missed most of the adepticon coverage and build up. What in particular in the mission pack favored flyrants and mucolids, aside from the obvious trash deploy with mucolids/deep strike flyrants strategy?
1) Kill points (the points value of units completely destroyed) were huge in the missions. It was a Kill Point differential. Mucolids don't give up KP, so a Tyrant drop list with mucolids has less KP to give, and can drop in and harvest some then play keep-away.
2) The missions had progressive components so mobility was huge.
3) In ITC champs missions Flyrants hemorrhage points. They give up KP, they give up head hunter points, they give up kingslayer points, they give up big game hunter points. Meanwhile lots of Eldar lists give up practically no points. So in the standard meta that I (and probably most of us) are used to, there are huge downsides to spamming flryants. The adepticon missions essentially removed all of the downsides, and at the same time incentivized a meta with lots of light infantry where flyrants can shine the most.
True, in ITC flyrants are kept in check, but ITC is not 40K.
GW balancing is done for 40K, so expect something nasty.
tag8833 wrote: For what it is worth, the Adepticon missions favored Flyrants a bit more than other mission packs, and they favored mucolids a great deal more.
I did not keep up with news and missed most of the adepticon coverage and build up. What in particular in the mission pack favored flyrants and mucolids, aside from the obvious trash deploy with mucolids/deep strike flyrants strategy?
1) Kill points (the points value of units completely destroyed) were huge in the missions. It was a Kill Point differential. Mucolids don't give up KP, so a Tyrant drop list with mucolids has less KP to give, and can drop in and harvest some then play keep-away.
2) The missions had progressive components so mobility was huge.
3) In ITC champs missions Flyrants hemorrhage points. They give up KP, they give up head hunter points, they give up kingslayer points, they give up big game hunter points. Meanwhile lots of Eldar lists give up practically no points. So in the standard meta that I (and probably most of us) are used to, there are huge downsides to spamming flryants. The adepticon missions essentially removed all of the downsides, and at the same time incentivized a meta with lots of light infantry where flyrants can shine the most.
I wasn’t aware of 3. I find that my flyrants are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to the secondary objectives you mentioned in ITC, but they are a great unit so it weighs up.
Is ITC format not followed at Adepticon? I've only ever played ITC missions in 8th, and I do notice that Nids can give up KP like crazy with all our MC.
How hard would it be for a TO to just say, you cannot take more than 2 of the same HQ datacard. So at most you would have 2 Flyrants and a Swarmlord in a single list. Problem solved.
Dynas wrote: Is ITC format not followed at Adepticon? I've only ever played ITC missions in 8th, and I do notice that Nids can give up KP like crazy with all our MC.
How hard would it be for a TO to just say, you cannot take more than 2 of the same HQ datacard. So at most you would have 2 Flyrants and a Swarmlord in a single list. Problem solved.
I do not know all the codexes, but are not some of them very short on HQ? They have already made similar restrictions on Tau commanders. Only one per detachment.
Dynas wrote: Is ITC format not followed at Adepticon? I've only ever played ITC missions in 8th, and I do notice that Nids can give up KP like crazy with all our MC.
How hard would it be for a TO to just say, you cannot take more than 2 of the same HQ datacard. So at most you would have 2 Flyrants and a Swarmlord in a single list. Problem solved.
Some factions have few or no HQs. Imperial knights. Harelequinns. Ynnari. Deathwatch. Custodes. GSC.
These hard limits are very restrictive in a lot of cases.
Dynas wrote: Is ITC format not followed at Adepticon? I've only ever played ITC missions in 8th, and I do notice that Nids can give up KP like crazy with all our MC.
How hard would it be for a TO to just say, you cannot take more than 2 of the same HQ datacard. So at most you would have 2 Flyrants and a Swarmlord in a single list. Problem solved.
Some factions have few or no HQs. Imperial knights. Harelequinns. Ynnari. Deathwatch. Custodes. GSC.
These hard limits are very restrictive in a lot of cases.
Theres always the old WHFB 8th rules. No morethan 25% of your army can be heros and lords.
Timeshadow wrote: I think 25% pts for each type other than troop is a good way to go.
Eg: with a 1000pts army you could have 250pts of HQ, 250 pts fast, 250pts elites, and 250pts heavy if you wanted but troops would always be unlimited.
Was it mentioned already that is was very much akin to 2nd edition.
3rd edition introduced the concept of units for filling out a force org. Then some armies found they could min/max the troop tax.
If you have a 25% point minim (actually 50% is best if you include most elites/other foot units in the mix). This way you don't have all characters/tanks on the board...but rather a lot of balanced lists.
You don't have 7 Flyrants or 3 BaneBlades to contend with. (in Narrative....yes you can....in Apocolypse games ... yes you can) In a balanced TAC game.....everyone is assumed to be bringing some sort of equity balanced force....and then you use your skill set on the table rather than army builder to win the game.
killerpenguin wrote: We can't possibly stand a chance at getting top placements in tournaments if flyrants gets limited to 1 pr. detachment?
I think we can. Tyranids literally have the best overall codex out right now. Flyrant are definitely good, but you don't need them to win. I do fine with 2 (2 battalions so this restriction wouldn't bother me at all).
The only thing we lack is allies that actually bring somthing to our table. GSC doesnt really shore up our weakness's (durable troops, long range AT, lack of psychic powers) and if you take a guard detachment as well, you dont have enough points to get anything worthwhile.
Eldar and Imperials have so many different allies they can take and combos they can build for its just not going to be fair.
If allies were limited Nids would be top of the food chain easily.
I myself actually think that a GSC and guard ally can allow us to bring some things that we really need. You can take a very cheap patrol detachment for the GSC and then you can pick up a Shadowsword/Baneblade or a Tank Commander and some Leman Russ so you have the heavy hitting power of the tanks with the speed and bodies the Tyranids can jam up the board.
Well maybe not so much need, but generate a little additional flexibility.
Karang029 wrote: I myself actually think that a GSC and guard ally can allow us to bring some things that we really need. You can take a very cheap patrol detachment for the GSC and then you can pick up a Shadowsword/Baneblade or a Tank Commander and some Leman Russ so you have the heavy hitting power of the tanks with the speed and bodies the Tyranids can jam up the board.
Well maybe not so much need, but generate a little additional flexibility.
And this sort of thinking is why we can't have nice things.
i personally dont like allies for nids. They (TO's) could also institute and Ally MAx % as well, to like 25% or something. So if you played Ultramarines, you could take a max of 25% of your points in Guard, Mech, or whatever...
If they put the Tau rule across all armies I would be fine with that.
@Eihnlazer- how do you consider those our weaknesses. I can sorta agree with the lack of durable troops, but the swarm/hordes make up for that, and GS are fairly durable. Rippers you can often hide. Gaunts die by the thousands. I think we have sufficient ranged anti tank, HVC on X unit, Flyrants, Hive Guard, Tfex, Carnifex, etc... Lack of psychic powers? Really? The only power i think is useless is Dominion, unless you are running a low Synapse creature list. The only tweak I would like to see is if Psychic Scream could be used to snipe characters, rather than just be treated like smite.
Dynas wrote: i personally dont like allies for nids. They (TO's) could also institute and Ally MAx % as well, to like 25% or something. So if you played Ultramarines, you could take a max of 25% of your points in Guard, Mech, or whatever...
I actually like this. In 2nd edition your allies came out of your 50% support (heavy weapons/vehicles/etc) That way no list was all power pieces.
Yeah but 25% would also invalidate a lot of models that people can take without being broken. I mean most heavy tanks and Knight models come in over 500 and would no longer be takeable with that rule. Just talking in a general sense not necessarily a Nids one
Karang029 wrote: Yeah but 25% would also invalidate a lot of models that people can take without being broken. I mean most heavy tanks and Knight models come in over 500 and would no longer be takeable with that rule. Just talking in a general sense not necessarily a Nids one
A better solution is to just declare you are allowed 2 faction keywords in your army at most. So GSC could bring Guard or Tyranids but not both.
Then, from there, your secondary keyword is limited to 700 points. So you've got roughly 2/3 of your army as your primary faction.
I would also place the restriction that individual detachments must be mono-faction in regards to faction keyword.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but this discussion has got me thinking...
I honestly think that the real problem here is that what a lot of people see as a bug or issue in 40k is actually a feature. GW, despite any recent changes to their methodology, still mostly write the rules for flexibility, not for balance. This is to provide for the possibility of competitive play, but also narrative/open play for those simply looking for a way to plop models on a table and roll some dice. (And let's be clear, but not go into at length: their primary goal is to SELL PLASTIC. In volume. They don't sell models if you are happy with yours forever.)
Instead of focusing on weird arbitrary percentages and what have you, or explicitly limiting the numbers of certain types of units and changing the way armies are built overall, GW should make a greater effort to fine-tune their points values, the existing metric for the value of a given unit as compared with another. I think they have been doing and clearly intend to continue to do this with each year's Chapter Approved volume. But perhaps they need to be more aggressive, like bumping that up to twice a year. This is the ultimate pathway to a more "balanced" competitive game. And the results can be staggering. Increasing the humble guardsman by a single point has been discussed, and it would really impact both AM list-building as well as much Imperial soup construction. Look what appropriately costing conscripts did to the overuse of that unit. Unfortunately that went hand in hand with changing the rules to make commissars completely useless...so neither unit fared well in the outcome. But given a choice between the two I would opt for the points increase over the rules change most of the time, except in cases where rules are obvious typos or are completely impractical or broken.
By contrast "Power Level" is a good start at a general, but simplified points system for more casual encounters. And the two don't have to be anything alike and should be developed almost independently of each other. If one army should be more powerful than another for narrative purposes, I am totally fine with that. How often would the Guard reasonably prevail against a Tyranid invasion? (Without consciously throwing WAY more bodies at them?) In this case it may make sense to say the Tyranid player gets 100 PL, and the guard player necessarily may need 125 to triumph. Some players might even find it fun and challenging to figure out what that perfect number is. (EDIT: Although then "power level" might not be the best term for this point system...but you get my gist)
I guess my point is that arbitrary limits to list-building seem anti-fun. If the way a player wants to have fun is to field an entire army of Hive Tyrants, I do believe they should be able to do that. There should be downsides (less available CP seems to work on some level...a good start), but if those units were appropriately costed to begin with they would have to really make a decision as to whether fielding 2000 points of them is worth it for the fun, or if diversification would make their list more powerful/competitive. Over time and through observation GW should be able to alter the point values based both off value they obviously represent (wounds/armor/mobility/weapons/etc), and those imperceptible advantages certain units benefit from in combination with other rules, armywides, etc. (the ability to fly, shoot without LoS, etc, etc).
Lastly, I would mention that despite the challenge of creating a "balanced" or true all-comers list, 40k is still largely a rock-paper-scissors-rending claws sort of a game. For every unit there is a type of weapon or strategy that is effective against it. Part of the game is reading your meta and attempting to get out ahead of it. Part of most competitive games, in fact. Unfortunately, part of any game of chance (and 40k is that both in list-building and dice-rolling) and strategic depth is that you may show up to an event and be paired against your weakness every single round. It sucks, but it is a risk you take when you decide to play. And I understand that unlike other hobbies, adding bits and changing parts of your army can get costly and time-consuming in 40k (the part GW loves) but this need to adapt to survive is a natural outcome for this type of game. Hence why it has been an effective business model for all these years.
@Eihnlazer- how do you consider those our weaknesses. I can sorta agree with the lack of durable troops, but the swarm/hordes make up for that, and GS are fairly durable. Rippers you can often hide. Gaunts die by the thousands. I think we have sufficient ranged anti tank, HVC on X unit, Flyrants, Hive Guard, Tfex, Carnifex, etc... Lack of psychic powers? Really? The only power i think is useless is Dominion, unless you are running a low Synapse creature list. The only tweak I would like to see is if Psychic Scream could be used to snipe characters, rather than just be treated like smite.
We dont have any troops who can really hold a table corner by themself (with the exception of hidden rippers who die If you spit on them). Other psyker armies have 2 disciplines they can pull from, but we only get 5 useful spells. HVC spam lists aren't competitive and barbed Heirodules are overloaded by about 20% (seriously compare to 2 lemon Russ battle tanks).Y
Karang029 wrote: Yeah but 25% would also invalidate a lot of models that people can take without being broken. I mean most heavy tanks and Knight models come in over 500 and would no longer be takeable with that rule. Just talking in a general sense not necessarily a Nids one
A better solution is to just declare you are allowed 2 faction keywords in your army at most. So GSC could bring Guard or Tyranids but not both.
Then, from there, your secondary keyword is limited to 700 points. So you've got roughly 2/3 of your army as your primary faction.
I would also place the restriction that individual detachments must be mono-faction in regards to faction keyword.
So you would invalidate an entire different branch of models that don't have HQs and the only way to actually play them currently is to hodgepog them into a different detachment. For example the Vindicaire models can only be taken as a 1 off if you pay a CP under the rule you proposed.
Karang029 wrote: Yeah but 25% would also invalidate a lot of models that people can take without being broken. I mean most heavy tanks and Knight models come in over 500 and would no longer be takeable with that rule. Just talking in a general sense not necessarily a Nids one
A better solution is to just declare you are allowed 2 faction keywords in your army at most. So GSC could bring Guard or Tyranids but not both.
Then, from there, your secondary keyword is limited to 700 points. So you've got roughly 2/3 of your army as your primary faction.
I would also place the restriction that individual detachments must be mono-faction in regards to faction keyword.
I main Chaos and hear alarm bells.
This in an example of a Detachment I might use; units and their faction keywords:
- Daemon Prince: CHAOS, NURGLE, HERETIC ASTARTES, WORD BEARERS
- Warp Talons Squad: CHAOS, KHORNE, HERETIC ASTARTES, WORD BEARERS
- Raptors Squad: CHAOS, SLAANESH, HERETIC ASTARTES, WORD BEARERS
- Chaos Spawn: CHAOS, TZEENTCH, HERETIC ASTARTES, WORD BEARERS
- Hellblade Interceptor: CHAOS, (no alignment), HERETIC ASTARTES, EYRINE CULTS, WORD BEARERS
That’s eight faction keywords in a single Detachment from a single Legion :/
In the example of GSC and their second detachment, an IG Detachment will not only have AM and GSC faction keywords, but also IMPERIUM, and likely MILITARUM AUXILIA, ASTRA TELEPATHICA, and like a dozen other organisations. Even the GSC themselves bring the TYRANIDS faction keyword, which immediately rules out the AM.
I would like to see more balanced tournaments, but a prescriptive cap on faction diversity seems likely to cause massive shockwaves
Lot of stuff here that would probably be better served in general discussion or potential rules.
I'm just throwing this out there - my competitive Nids list hasn't had a flyrant in it since the start of 8th and I've done just fine. Wouldn't expect to 6-0 a GT but winning RTTs hasn't been a problem. Genestealers and swarmy slingshot are just fine.
tag8833 wrote: For what it is worth, the Adepticon missions favored Flyrants a bit more than other mission packs, and they favored mucolids a great deal more.
I did not keep up with news and missed most of the adepticon coverage and build up. What in particular in the mission pack favored flyrants and mucolids, aside from the obvious trash deploy with mucolids/deep strike flyrants strategy?
1) Kill points (the points value of units completely destroyed) were huge in the missions. It was a Kill Point differential. Mucolids don't give up KP, so a Tyrant drop list with mucolids has less KP to give, and can drop in and harvest some then play keep-away.
2) The missions had progressive components so mobility was huge.
3) In ITC champs missions Flyrants hemorrhage points. They give up KP, they give up head hunter points, they give up kingslayer points, they give up big game hunter points. Meanwhile lots of Eldar lists give up practically no points. So in the standard meta that I (and probably most of us) are used to, there are huge downsides to spamming flryants. The adepticon missions essentially removed all of the downsides, and at the same time incentivized a meta with lots of light infantry where flyrants can shine the most.
As a new Tyranid player, I am facing a dilemma in choices. It is tempting to take 30 (maybe 25?) Termagants with Devourers to pump out a ton of shots (w/Single-Minded Annihilation) or go with several small squads to screen. I kinda like the idea of a huge blob popping up with a Trygon Prime but that seems very expensive (for Tyranids anyways).
I'm overwhelmed with choices that Tyranids can provide and not quite sure which direction is the best to go.
Wayniac wrote: As a new Tyranid player, I am facing a dilemma in choices. It is tempting to take 30 (maybe 25?) Termagants with Devourers to pump out a ton of shots (w/Single-Minded Annihilation) or go with several small squads to screen. I kinda like the idea of a huge blob popping up with a Trygon Prime but that seems very expensive (for Tyranids anyways).
I'm overwhelmed with choices that Tyranids can provide and not quite sure which direction is the best to go.
So, i've played in 4 tournaments this year with my Tyranids.
I am going to drop the Trygon + Dakka Termagant portion of my list.
It just doesn't have the use case you would want. It's difficult to hit the sweet spot, and is best used to clear chaff, but in general those are now protected by scout moves. Considering it costs so many points, I would prefer to invest those 400 points into something that will be useful immediately.
It's also worth keeping in mind it is a colossal investment, and against its ideal targets, like Guardsmen, it's overall not that amazing. Investing 400 points and 2CP to wipe out 2-3 squads isn't really that great. And you're not scoring any secondaries doing that.
It does give you board control, but rippers are already great at this.
The best part about this ball is the Trygon, but being t6 3+ with no invuln, he gets taken apart rather quickly and easily. He's a good distraction Carnifex. My opponents who ignore him learn a valuable lesson, but that's usually people before you start getting swiss paired.
At the end of the day there are better ways to spend the points.
Wayniac wrote: As a new Tyranid player, I am facing a dilemma in choices. It is tempting to take 30 (maybe 25?) Termagants with Devourers to pump out a ton of shots (w/Single-Minded Annihilation) or go with several small squads to screen. I kinda like the idea of a huge blob popping up with a Trygon Prime but that seems very expensive (for Tyranids anyways).
I'm overwhelmed with choices that Tyranids can provide and not quite sure which direction is the best to go.
Both options are good but they do different things. The big blob is super killy, point and shoot. (Use shooting x 2 stratagem.)
The smaler screen is more tecical. They need synapse though.
It depends on what your army looks like and what you need.
Byte wrote: I hope the timing and results of one event doesn't influence the FAQ for an entire game system.
Is this becoming "whack a mole"?
Silly stuff.
Guess you are out of the loop then...cause that 'Adepticon' list was:
1st and 3rd at Caledonian Uprising in UK (January event with 100+ attendees)
2nd and 3rd at Dark Millenium in UK (30-60 person GT event)
2nd at Barrie bash (Canadian 60+ person event in February)
Plus other tyrant spam variants like
5 tyrant list was 2nd at Last Chance Open (another January ITC GT sized event in UK),
6 Tyrant list took 1st at Warzone Slagalese in Denmark in February (Major event so 60+)
Sure there was more in March also, just easy to find those on Blood of Kittens.
Pretty sure that hammer was falling regardless of Adepticon - not because the list is good but because it's indicative of an issue (whether that is with Tyrants or Supreme Command is debatable).
I think people are assuming GW delayed the FAQ because of the Adepticon 1st place, but could easily be the 2nd place list (eg free models from poxwalker + free model from cultist uprising = unbeatable without overt luck like what Matt Root ended up having), or a host of other things they saw on all tables or was presented to them by all the playtesters in attendance.
Wayniac wrote: As a new Tyranid player, I am facing a dilemma in choices. It is tempting to take 30 (maybe 25?) Termagants with Devourers to pump out a ton of shots (w/Single-Minded Annihilation) or go with several small squads to screen. I kinda like the idea of a huge blob popping up with a Trygon Prime but that seems very expensive (for Tyranids anyways).
I'm overwhelmed with choices that Tyranids can provide and not quite sure which direction is the best to go.
So, i've played in 4 tournaments this year with my Tyranids.
I am going to drop the Trygon + Dakka Termagant portion of my list.
It just doesn't have the use case you would want. It's difficult to hit the sweet spot, and is best used to clear chaff, but in general those are now protected by scout moves. Considering it costs so many points, I would prefer to invest those 400 points into something that will be useful immediately.
It's also worth keeping in mind it is a colossal investment, and against its ideal targets, like Guardsmen, it's overall not that amazing. Investing 400 points and 2CP to wipe out 2-3 squads isn't really that great. And you're not scoring any secondaries doing that.
It does give you board control, but rippers are already great at this.
The best part about this ball is the Trygon, but being t6 3+ with no invuln, he gets taken apart rather quickly and easily. He's a good distraction Carnifex. My opponents who ignore him learn a valuable lesson, but that's usually people before you start getting swiss paired.
At the end of the day there are better ways to spend the points.
At 48 points per damage vs T7/3+ (Without figuring in the reroll), I think you've maybe missed the boat on using Termagants as a passable source of AT.
I have had good success using them against a huge range of targets, including stormravens, razorbacks, etc.
If someone has screens that are pushing your arrival out, then you should easily be combat hugging those screens with your stealers/horms and avoiding counter fire.
Aside from drastically altering your list (Assuming you're still using the same style I am), I don't see much at 240 pts that can fill the same role as the dev gants. What would you take instead? 20 more stealers? Another Flyrant?
I still haven't played a game where I felt as if I couldn't win, through board control at the very least. My losses have come from my own poor choices, or in one case, being unable to roll a goddamn 5 on a psychic test, even after rerolling both dice.
Marmatag wrote: Don't get me wrong - i'm doing well so far, 11-0-1 - but the Termagant ball is not helping enough to justify its cost.
And it jumps to about 400 when you factor in the Trygon.
There are simply better tools to target what these guys are targeting.
I am tossing around the idea of a brigade with 3xCarnifex and 3xSpores. I already have the elite/troop/hq slots covered.
I am waiting to see what happens in the march FAQ.
I wholly disagree that there are better tools. The Termagants are one of our most flexible and cost efficient weapons. Anything that is more cost efficient is either melee, or specialized in nature.
The termagant bomb is powerful because it is good (Not great) vs most targets (Except T8, and 2+).
The Trygon is definitely too squishy, but I've won several games solely off the Trygon's damage that definitely wouldn't have been replicated elsewhere.
I agree that the FAQ will absolutely determine how we proceed, but I fully disagree that a Trygon+Devgant bomb can be replaced with something else for 400 pts that fits into the same style of play the Trygon bomb does. There are plenty of lists we can build without it, but I don't think 3 fex+3 spores fills the same role, and I think they present easy AT targets when our list is built more about denying easy AT targets.
Byte wrote: I hope the timing and results of one event doesn't influence the FAQ for an entire game system.
Is this becoming "whack a mole"?
Silly stuff.
Guess you are out of the loop then...cause that 'Adepticon' list was:
1st and 3rd at Caledonian Uprising in UK (January event with 100+ attendees)
2nd and 3rd at Dark Millenium in UK (30-60 person GT event)
2nd at Barrie bash (Canadian 60+ person event in February)
Plus other tyrant spam variants like
5 tyrant list was 2nd at Last Chance Open (another January ITC GT sized event in UK),
6 Tyrant list took 1st at Warzone Slagalese in Denmark in February (Major event so 60+)
Sure there was more in March also, just easy to find those on Blood of Kittens.
Pretty sure that hammer was falling regardless of Adepticon - not because the list is good but because it's indicative of an issue (whether that is with Tyrants or Supreme Command is debatable).
I think people are assuming GW delayed the FAQ because of the Adepticon 1st place, but could easily be the 2nd place list (eg free models from poxwalker + free model from cultist uprising = unbeatable without overt luck like what Matt Root ended up having), or a host of other things they saw on all tables or was presented to them by all the playtesters in attendance.
Your right. I had no idea. I don't tend to chase the meta to see what's hot and not.
Byte wrote: I hope the timing and results of one event doesn't influence the FAQ for an entire game system.
Is this becoming "whack a mole"?
Silly stuff.
Guess you are out of the loop then...cause that 'Adepticon' list was:
1st and 3rd at Caledonian Uprising in UK (January event with 100+ attendees)
2nd and 3rd at Dark Millenium in UK (30-60 person GT event)
2nd at Barrie bash (Canadian 60+ person event in February)
Plus other tyrant spam variants like
5 tyrant list was 2nd at Last Chance Open (another January ITC GT sized event in UK),
6 Tyrant list took 1st at Warzone Slagalese in Denmark in February (Major event so 60+)
Sure there was more in March also, just easy to find those on Blood of Kittens.
Pretty sure that hammer was falling regardless of Adepticon - not because the list is good but because it's indicative of an issue (whether that is with Tyrants or Supreme Command is debatable).
I think people are assuming GW delayed the FAQ because of the Adepticon 1st place, but could easily be the 2nd place list (eg free models from poxwalker + free model from cultist uprising = unbeatable without overt luck like what Matt Root ended up having), or a host of other things they saw on all tables or was presented to them by all the playtesters in attendance.
Your right. I had no idea. I don't tend to chase the meta to see what's hot and not.
Maybe less sweeping comments about things you profess to be ignorant about?
Hive Tyrants are good, yes, but I'm on board with the several other posters who think there are perfectly good and winnable lists that don't spam them, and I am doubtly they'll do much more than limit them slightly, and maybe bump the points on MRCs. It'd be pretty overkill to do more.
Wayniac wrote: As a new Tyranid player, I am facing a dilemma in choices. It is tempting to take 30 (maybe 25?) Termagants with Devourers to pump out a ton of shots (w/Single-Minded Annihilation) or go with several small squads to screen. I kinda like the idea of a huge blob popping up with a Trygon Prime but that seems very expensive (for Tyranids anyways).
I'm overwhelmed with choices that Tyranids can provide and not quite sure which direction is the best to go.
So, i've played in 4 tournaments this year with my Tyranids.
I am going to drop the Trygon + Dakka Termagant portion of my list.
It just doesn't have the use case you would want. It's difficult to hit the sweet spot, and is best used to clear chaff, but in general those are now protected by scout moves. Considering it costs so many points, I would prefer to invest those 400 points into something that will be useful immediately.
It's also worth keeping in mind it is a colossal investment, and against its ideal targets, like Guardsmen, it's overall not that amazing. Investing 400 points and 2CP to wipe out 2-3 squads isn't really that great. And you're not scoring any secondaries doing that.
It does give you board control, but rippers are already great at this.
The best part about this ball is the Trygon, but being t6 3+ with no invuln, he gets taken apart rather quickly and easily. He's a good distraction Carnifex. My opponents who ignore him learn a valuable lesson, but that's usually people before you start getting swiss paired.
At the end of the day there are better ways to spend the points.
I have had the opposite experience as you have, and would recommend the gauntbomb to the new player.
I think that it really depends on what the rest of your list looks like. I think that, outside of Flying Tyants, Tyranids don't win or lose based on one good unit, but instead based on how well your units complement each others weaknesses.
I run the full 30 deveourer gaunts, plus Swarmlord and Genestealers, supported by Hive Guard (my list is a few pages back). Depending on what I'm facing, I use the termagants to clear out blockers so Swarmy/'stealers can get to something juicy, or I use the 'stealers to clear a hole for the gaunts to drop into, or I use the Hive Guard to get rid of things like Scouts that keep me from doing one of the other two things. I personally like using Trygons to deliver, but I think the argument for Jorgm/Raveners instead is very strong.
My biggest problem with a jorm detach for my gauntbomb is that I want maximum CP, and a Brigade is the best way to do that with minimum tax.
If we had a 45pt HQ that was as good as a Tau Fireblade, we'd have a lot of potential for spamming detachments. Unfortunately, with how good Tyrants are, it's hard to justify taking more than 1-2 Neurothropes. And even then, they're not that cheap.
Hmm... thinking on the upcoming FAQ’s unknown payloads:
“Swarmlord + Genestealers + Opportunistic Advance has great synergy” = tactica
“___ unit is presently undercosted” isn’t really tactica IMO
I mean I know it’s a concern when list building to win, but GW have adopted an approach that’s making a big thing of balance tweaks, and we really need to bear in mind that spending stacks of money on what’s efficient today is a recipe to be disappointed tomorrow
I think aggressively seeking the most efficient list is going to set some people up for more disappointment than you get from having an inefficient collection for six months
I’ve been playing a lot of games against new people lately, and have been using this as a chance to try out a lot of things that would seem like weaker choices or otherwise not be considered ‘optimal’ in normal matches.
Haruspex - Disappointing. He hits hard and can eat a lot of chaff, but that 4+ to hit just ruins him. He’d be okay against chaff but by its nature chaff stays in the enemy zone, and the haruspex will be dead long before it reaches there.
Behemoth Tyrant with Scythes and Monstrous Hunger - This guy does amazing work. You’re giving up slay the warlord but he will gib ANYTHING in a single melee phase. Pulled an average of ten wounds a phase, no one liked him at all.
Shrikes with fleshhooks/guns/swords - Ran these guys as Leviathan, they’re surprisingly sturdy and fast. They were expensive but I never felt like they didn’t make their points back.
3 squads of Zoanthropes - Used them out to try out the psychic barrage stratagem. By the time they all got close enough to hit anything worthwhile, the enemy was too spread out to be worth it. Definitely not something to plan for. The Zoanthropes themselves did alright. Had a neurothrope behind them for buffs and with smite heals they were practically invincible. 3++/6+++ 9 wound units that fire off damage no matter if they’re locked in combat or not are nasty. Probably not nearly as good after the smite nerfs come in though.
Deathleaper/Red Terror - Tried these guys out as a silly deep strike combo. I ran into the same problem that came up with all the big fancy melee bugs; they did alright, but it always felt like genestealers would have done it just as well for cheaper. Deathleaper’s -2 to hit definitely helped, but only a 5+ meant he was dead if anything grazed him. Character status didn’t help, because putting stuff in front of them would reduce their already poor chance of assaulting in the first place.
The nice thing was that none of these units were particularly bad, there was just other stuff that did the same thing cheaper or with better survivability.
I used my Maleceptor in my last 2 tournaments, one at 1000 and the other at 2000 points.
At 1000 he was brutal, at 2000 he did some interesting stuff, but mostly he was a nice distraction fex, being always the first target in all games.
The only game where he didn't work was against Blood Angel, but i made a bad deployment mistake and basically lost by turn one.
The right way to use it was putting catalyst on him and double move into the enemy deployment zone.
He deals some mortal wounds, possibly gives you first blood (against tau drone it is highly likely), and then gets sacrificed. He will die, but if he is the only thing to die on that crucial enemy first turn, then it was worth it.
So don’t take this the wrong way, but what else do you have in your army list? Or did your opponent just have bad target priority? I can’t imagine a world in which the Maleceptor should be a primary target
So another question, I'm going to assemble my first squad of 3 Tyranid Warriors tonight (my first Tyranid unit, actually!. I know Boneswords and Deathspitters are the go-to choices, but is it worth giving one model a Venom Cannon? Usually, I will give a model a special weapon whenever possible to make the unit more versatile.
Yes. I think the venom cannon is worth it. The D3 can get annoying though IMO.
I also like to keep the warriors cheap, so I do Syth talons. Warriors for me are either all melee or a gunline. I normally go gunline and let my GS and Hormies charge in.
In a general sense I don't like splitting my army. You run into synapse problems and you open yourself for deep strike. But sometimes, it cannot be avoided.
HVC on a warrior, if you're running warriors, makes sense. A Tyranid prime with squads of warriors using a heavy venom might not be terrible, but in general there are better HVC platforms IMHO.
Overall I would say we have better shooting options. A Rupturefex would be better. Remember, warriors are targetable, too.
luke1705 wrote: So don’t take this the wrong way, but what else do you have in your army list? Or did your opponent just have bad target priority? I can’t imagine a world in which the Maleceptor should be a primary target
I guess it is just the psychological effect of a large monster moving across the board and dropping a few mortal wounds.
It’s probably going to inflict 8MW with no means of blocking them. If you’re Kraken, a couple of support characters will likely be caught up in that. That right there is a T7 4++ unit with a modest chance of sniping one of said characters if it’s not dealt with.
That said, picket line screening can easily shut it down. It’s got a useful niche that is well matched to aurahammer and makes it something people will want to deal with. Not a fan of the mini, myself, but it’s definitely not a 6ed pyrovore.
lindsay40k wrote: It’s probably going to inflict 8MW with no means of blocking them. If you’re Kraken, a couple of support characters will likely be caught up in that. That right there is a T7 4++ unit with a modest chance of sniping one of said characters if it’s not dealt with.
That said, picket line screening can easily shut it down. It’s got a useful niche that is well matched to aurahammer and makes it something people will want to deal with. Not a fan of the mini, myself, but it’s definitely not a 6ed pyrovore.
Mostly this, it's a beast that can move 20" inches without problems and end up near a juicy target to double smite (with +1), or if unable it will just put itself in the best point to unleash a psy overload.
Add to this that it is shutting down your psy phase and you cannot leave it unanswered.
Double smite? Hmm, tendrils happen “instead of manifesting any psychic powers in your psychic phase... if I’m rushing a Male then it’s going to smart bomb and Zoeys are going to Smite :/
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spore Field, or Meiotic Spores? For a mere 8pts premium, MS are looking a lot better. Take twice as much gun to clear, and don’t cost 3CP to drop in. And can fill some Detachment slots.
lindsay40k wrote: Double smite? Hmm, tendrils happen “instead of manifesting any psychic powers in your psychic phase... if I’m rushing a Male then it’s going to smart bomb and Zoeys are going to Smite :/
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spore Field, or Meiotic Spores? For a mere 8pts premium, MS are looking a lot better. Take twice as much gun to clear, and don’t cost 3CP to drop in. And can fill some Detachment slots.
Meiotic Spores are indeed 18 each (54 for a unit). I think they are well worth their points though. I use 3 units to deny deep strikers any viable targets on turn 1. Hive Guard lists love them and they fit nicely into an outrider detachment or a brigade.
Meiotic (and Sporefield) are pre-battle deployment.
MO happens after a unit moves. So, after deploying a Spore unit before the battle begins, and moving it in your movement phase, you can move it again. This is not moving 2M+3D6, it’s moving M+D6 once and then doing it again.
Dropping Spore Mines and Mucolid Spores are set up in the movement phase, not moved, so MO wouldn’t be allowed in those cases.
So, if a Spores unit *starts the turn in play*, it *can* use MO. And, if it does so and gets within 3” of an enemy unit, it will deliver the payload.
Question is: is it worth it? Moving an extra M+D6 but not charging, and taking a MW for every sixth mine? You’d get a better range, on average, by saving the CP and charging.
Main niche purpose? Throwing them at units with flamers and the like. MO move won’t trigger Overwatch.
Of course, if you’re Kraken, you can throw another CP at them to Opportunist Advance. That moves around M+10 and then M+10 again. That *can* make a whole load of them zoom over a screen, gang up around a support character, and hose it down with Mortal Wounds.
With full sized units and estimated fractions:
9 Spore Mines = 7.5 survive MO = 7.5 MW 3 Mucolid Spores = 2.5 survive MO = 4.8 MW 9 Meiotic Spores = 8.25 survive MO = 16 MW, 17.5 if you use a reroll, omg that’s a dead Primarch this is totally a viable trick
Automatically Appended Next Post: BUT do bear the numbers in mind if you’ve got a load of Spores a foot away from a warlord with a screening unit in the way
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can actually move them four times, which can be even better than OA:
- Movement Phase + MO
- Swarmlord Shooting Phase + MO
With Kraken, that can easily pole-vault over a modest screen and do an assassination ploy so sneaky, you could put a purple badge on it and call it a Decepticon
Automatically Appended Next Post: BUT do bear the numbers in mind if you’ve got a load of Spores a foot away from a warlord with a screening unit in the way
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can actually move them four times, which can be even better than OA:
- Movement Phase + MO
- Swarmlord Shooting Phase + MO
With Kraken, that can easily pole-vault over a modest screen and do an assassination ploy so sneaky, you could put a purple badge on it and call it a Decepticon
Still doable without Kraken
Metabolic overdrive can only be used in the movement phase, so 3 times is the most you will get.
Have to say though that they move more than you estimated, since the bonus from the first advance lasts for the whole movement phase, which means that the second move is M+the previous D6+ the new D6.
It's a trick i've been preparing mostly for the mucolid spores, since they will not die from the MW and i usually have some deployed to fill the brigade requirements. Not something i'm going to do turn 1, but an interesting tool to have during the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BUT do bear the numbers in mind if you’ve got a load of Spores a foot away from a warlord with a screening unit in the way
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can actually move them four times, which can be even better than OA:
- Movement Phase + MO
- Swarmlord Shooting Phase + MO
With Kraken, that can easily pole-vault over a modest screen and do an assassination ploy so sneaky, you could put a purple badge on it and call it a Decepticon
Still doable without Kraken
Metabolic overdrive can only be used in the movement phase, so 3 times is the most you will get.
Have to say though that they move more than you estimated, since the bonus from the first advance lasts for the whole movement phase, which means that the second move is M+the previous D6+ the new D6.
It's a trick i've been preparing mostly for the mucolid spores, since they will not die from the MW and i usually have some deployed to fill the brigade requirements. Not something i'm going to do turn 1, but an interesting tool to have during the game.
Aha, I had confused MO with OA, which the CTFAQ confirms as being useable in any phase when a standard move is made.
However, on the subject of advancing twice and stacking, the CTFAQ has shot that down. When you advance, you add D6 to your M for the whole phase, and you can’t advance twice in a phase. So, Advance to make a Kraken Spore’s M=8ish, then MO to make another move of the same value, then Swarmlord for another move (during which it can Advance, making a fresh roll).
Still doable for a Kraken Spores unit to clear a screen a scrag a character.
I have used this on a unit of 5 Meiotic Spores to jump over a screen and deal 10 mortal wounds to an Imperial Knight. My opponent was quite shocked.
But everything lindsay said is correct. The FAQ explains how all these strategems interact with advancing and it can be a little confusing.
For example, the FAQ clearly allows you to use Opportunistic Advance (on a non fly unit) in the shooting phase after using Swarmlord's Hive Commander. But it does not give permission to do so with Metabolic Overdrive.
So the best case scenario is you spend 1 CP to Metabolic Overdrive and move at most 18 inches with Meiotic Spores in the movement phase. I would never dream of wasting Hive Commander on them but 18 inches is sufficient to jump most screens and hit something valuable. It can be especially amusing to snipe a character this way with an average of 6 mortal wounds for 3 meiotic spores. That seems worth a CP to me.
Anyone thought of imbedding spore mines in with their melee units to deter charges and or follow up after your Hormies or GS get in. This could be good vs other armies that are melee based like Blood Angels, Beserkers, etc....
I envision spacing them out within your lines about 1" back from the front so they are within range if charged. Also, if you don't get charged you can bring them in subsequent rounds once the enemy has been locked in combat and has no way of shooting them in Overwatch.
I've tried the spore mine rush, and a lot of them just get shot up.
Still want to try the spore mine spam with Sporecyst, biovores, etc..., but havn't had a chance.
It's a decent tactic in theory but hard to find a use case for it. Meiotic Spores are usually ahead of your lines to deter deep strikers. They're a first screen. If you put them behind your secondary screen then it kind of defeats the point of having them.
Spores are far too slow to actively embed in mobile melee units. Dropping them in a unit that looks like it’ll get charged next turn is an option. Though they’d almost always be better placed as forward screens.
Honestly i prefer mucolid spores, mostly because you can use them as a unit of 1 for a cheap cost, fill a FA slot in a brigade, have the cheapest cost to wound ratio, have T3 and 6+ and don't die to MO. You either plant them into a termagant screen that you know that is going to be assaulted, or just drop them 12" from a target that is getting swamped, so that next turn you go boom on it.
Problem is that while i would like to play a lot of those, getting those models is impossible.
2 to 3 sporocysts combo'd with biovores and genestealers all in your enemies lines really ruins their tempo.
Its just so many threats inside their deploy zone they cannot ignore it, meaning your big bugs and gaunts might not even get shot at, or the sporocysts will get ignored and keep spawning more.
remember at 104 points, a sporocyst that makes it to turn 3 has spawned 90 points of mines and shot 3 times, easily making its points back and also probably giving you objective points. They are durable enough that they have to send somthing big at them or waste a ton of small arms fire on them.
Spoletta wrote: Honestly i prefer mucolid spores, mostly because you can use them as a unit of 1 for a cheap cost, fill a FA slot in a brigade, have the cheapest cost to wound ratio, have T3 and 6+ and don't die to MO. You either plant them into a termagant screen that you know that is going to be assaulted, or just drop them 12" from a target that is getting swamped, so that next turn you go boom on it.
Problem is that while i would like to play a lot of those, getting those models is impossible.
Find someone who purchased a tyrannocyte and buy the spores off of them.
If that fails, glue a peanut to a toothpick, lol.
And i agree with literally everything you said in regards to spores.
They also allow you to move forward and not have people deep striking with 9" of your back line, or act as general deep strike denial from spots other than where your screens are. I use rippers for this if i don't take recon.
Hi to all nid players,
I'm looking for some advice on how to counter genestealers with marines.
Heres the tactic my opponent uses:
20 genestelears with poison thingies are deployed in reserves
genestealers are using the hive fleet trait that doubles theyir advance
Every time i try to screen against him heres what he does:
advances his carnifexes and wipes out my screen units
Then deepstrikes the genestealers, gives them feeel no pain and invulnerable buffs and using his swarmlord orders them to move in their shooting phase and advance
They move and advance up to 20 inches easily getting in range to whatever they want to charge, then if i dont kill 10 of them in overwatch its 4 attacks off of each genestealer
and if they fight for a second time using the stratagem its basicaly game over for me.
The problem is that my army is mostly infantry so it gets crippled after such an assault
It sounds like you are deploying to close towards opponent. How do the carnifex kill your screen?
General rule vs nids is hug the table edge, shoot and fall back. As an imperial you shoot better then him. Does he deepstrike both the swarmlord and genestealers in spore and trygon respectivly?
Do you have scouts to deny deep strike?
What is your list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, while what you describe is legal. The way you describe it aounds like he is playing something wrong, or you are playing something odd with your tactics.
I take it he is kraken? The double move stratagem is the kraken strtagem that doubles advance dice, or the one that lets him double move but can not charge that turn? Where is the swarmlord, does he conga line stealers? The invonerablr save is the 5++ and catalyst is the 5+++?
The double fight stratagem, he can only fight things he decleared a charge against if it is the turn he charged (I asume it is.) That can e a lot of overwatch.
Niiai wrote: It sounds like you are deploying to close towards opponent. How do the carnifex kill your screen?
General rule vs nids is hug the table edge, shoot and fall back. As an imperial you shoot better then him. Does he deepstrike both the swarmlord and genestealers in spore and trygon respectivly?
Do you have scouts to deny deep strike?
What is your list?
My list is basically an azraels gunline,10 hellblasters, devastator squad ancient, leutenant. I have two squads of scours and an intercessor squad for screening and i got 2 6-man squads of inceptors with bolters and plasmas a jump pack capitain and a leutenant to back them up and a culexus assasin for some psychic defence. Oh and a darkshroud to better protect my gunline.
Its not an ideal list, especially against hordes but i wonder what i can change and which tactics to use against this tyranid combo.
Genestealers are deployed around trygon, after reading the rules im wondering if its at all possible to set up 20 genestealers wholly with 3 inches around him.
I guess that my mistake is that i tend to deploy the azrael bubble in some ruin to get cover that usually places me closer to opponent.
The other problem is that he has so much units that eventually get to all objectives
It is very possible to sett up 20 genstealers around a trygon and get a charge. Usually the trygon has a problem getting a charge in the same turn as you have to wrap around it, often leaving the trygon with a more then 8" charge. (Remember adrenal glands on the trygon.)
Assuming both swarmlord and stealers deepstrike in you can not deny him the charge. But that is almost 850 points of units, so you can dictate what hr can charge. Just have your lest best thing surounding your important units with a large gap between. Eat thr charge. Shoot genestealers, and trygons afterwards. Tank one turn of swarmlord melee. (The 4++ makes him unreliable to shoit in one turn. Not so wity the trygonm)
Niiai wrote: It is very possible to sett up 20 genstealers around a trygon and get a charge. Usually the trygon has a problem getting a charge in the same turn as you have to wrap around it, often leaving the trygon with a more then 8" charge. (Remember adrenal glands on the trygon.)
Assuming both swarmlord and stealers deepstrike in you can not deny him the charge. But that is almost 850 points of units, so you can dictate what hr can charge. Just have your lest best thing surounding your important units with a large gap between. Eat thr charge. Shoot genestealers, and trygons afterwards. Tank one turn of swarmlord melee. (The 4++ makes him unreliable to shoit in one turn. Not so wity the trygonm)
Another question, is there any point of trying to deny his pscychic powers using a culexus?
That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.
After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.
the calexus -2 to psykik test is good if you have a hood to deny the witch. But the swarmlord is usually outside of 18 and 24 the first turn he casts catalyst, is he not?
My list is basically an azraels gunline,10 hellblasters, devastator squad ancient, leutenant. I have two squads of scours and an intercessor squad for screening and i got 2 6-man squads of inceptors with bolters and plasmas a jump pack capitain and a leutenant to back them up and a culexus assasin for some psychic defence. Oh and a darkshroud to better protect my gunline.
Its not an ideal list, especially against hordes but i wonder what i can change and which tactics to use against this tyranid combo.
Genestealers are deployed around trygon, after reading the rules im wondering if its at all possible to set up 20 genestealers wholly with 3 inches around him.
I guess that my mistake is that i tend to deploy the azrael bubble in some ruin to get cover that usually places me closer to opponent.
The other problem is that he has so much units that eventually get to all objectives
So, I agree with the advice that you have already been given.
I could have sworn that one of the FAQ's changed "wholly within" to "within" for the Trygon tunnel, but I can't find it at the moment. Either way, there is enough space for 20 genestealers to set up around him.
You deal with this by setting up several layers of bubble between were he is going to drop in and what you want to keep alive. You won't be able to stop the 'stealers from charging, and he is going to be able to kill at least one screen with shooting/psychics before the stealers charge, so anything that the stealers can consolidate into after they charge your second screen is going to be hit by the second fight. This means you need to have a lot of space between were he drops at and the things you want to keep alive.
Because you can't stop the charge, you have to rely on shooting the stealers to death after they charge. They have a built in 5+ invul, and you can assume that the Swarmlord is giving them Catylist, which is a 5+ feel no pain. The end result is comparable to having a 3+ invul, but it is really streaky-hot or cold dice on the saves can swing a game with FnP genestealers. There is no way for him to improve either of those saves-he can buy a 4+ armor on the stealers, but that is just armor. The invul can never get better than a 5++ and the feel no pain can never get better than a 5+++.
If you shoot at the stealer unit with as many shots as you would use to kill 20 marines, you will kill them. Primaris Inceptors are really good at this-you deep strike them after the 'stealers are on the table, then kill the stealers. The other thing you want to keep in mind is that genestealers are not great at opening tanks. Hide key units inside or behind Rhinos. Even if the genestealers kill the Rhino(s) on the charge, they are now stuck out in the open where you can shoot them to death. He can only use the swarmlord advance on one unit, so if he advances the Swarmlord or the Trygon to kill the tank, the genestealers are stuck rolling the 9" charge. (It is possible, with the right upgrade and Hive Fleet, to make that a 8" rerollable, but the upgrade is expensive to take on 20 'stealers and there are other Hive Fleets with strong options, so it is very unlikely.
Niiai wrote: That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.
After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.
Thanks for the tips), i might face him this saturday and get back with more details)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: You said a spore, singular. 3 units = 3 seperate transports, 1 trygon and 2 spores, right?
Yes he actually has only one spore but what he puts inside depends on the situation, some times the swarlord might go there sometimes he might just footslog his swarmy and advance to get within 6 inch range of genestealers
Niiai wrote: That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.
After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.
This is a good idea. You should do this.
The counter for the 'nid player is to use Hive Guard to clear the scouts, but that keeps the deep strike away for a turn, and the marine player can maneuver to deny good deep strikes/win the mission.
the calexus -2 to psykik test is good if you have a hood to deny the witch. But the swarmlord is usually outside of 18 and 24 the first turn he casts catalyst, is he not?
Might not be. Needs to be within 6 of the Genestealers to double move them, so careful positioning of the calexus could force the 'nid player to choose between being badly placed to deepstrike or casting inside the calexus. Plus swarmy doesn't like calexuses (calexusi?) very much anyway.
Yeah swarmy hitting on 6's is mean. The 4++ can keep the assassin alive. But if it is kraken nids he can run out of melee and charge the same turn. Any other nid and the assassin would be a great tarpit.
Niiai wrote: That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.
After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.
Thanks for the tips), i might face him this saturday and get back with more details)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: You said a spore, singular. 3 units = 3 seperate transports, 1 trygon and 2 spores, right?
Yes he actually has only one spore but what he puts inside depends on the situation, some times the swarlord might go there sometimes he might just footslog his swarmy and advance to get within 6 inch range of genestealers
If he is walking the swarmlord anywhere, you should take advantage of his mistake. If you go second, you can't do much about it. If you go first, you should kill swarmy. Hit him with all your antitank. T7, 12 wounds, 4++ invul. If you don't have enough antitank shooting to kill him in a single turn, you need more antitank shooting. He has too many wounds to be protected by the character rule. If the other guy has venomthropes (gives -1 to hit), kill them down to 2 models-after that they don't protect MC's any more. If he has the Malenthrope (big guy who gives -1 to hit) oh well, he spent 160+ points for that.
Thanks to all for the tips, ive been thinking about bringning rhinos, but my most important unit on the board is the hellblaster squad, i can hide them only in a repulsor, but i would have to drop the inceptors or something else to squeeze it in my list
Whats bad about repulsor is his 3+ save which is why i dont think hes that good to invest in
This might actually be 'metagaming a bit' but most lists want a batallion for 3 cp. Marines are well knows for having one of the worst units in the game in the tactical squad. No matter what edition they are bad. And with scouts being so good and cheap it is hard to not fill the batalion with scouts. It would solve your genstealer problem, as well as giving you a mean objective game against other armies.
Niiai wrote: Yeah swarmy hitting on 6's is mean. The 4++ can keep the assassin alive. But if it is kraken nids he can run out of melee and charge the same turn. Any other nid and the assassin would be a great tarpit.
Kraken is gonna Kraken. The mental picture of the assassin chasing the swarmlord around the table is pretty funny. Even with one of the other hive fleets the assassin isn't going to solo swarmy, but between the area denial, spell denial, and off chance for some wounds its probably worth the price. Not a imperial player so idk .
Yeah the primaris transport problem is a grief for marines. SW have a stratagem to outflank them, but every other marine has a movement problem. It is a huge oversight wheb designing them from GW's part. The repulsor (?) transport tank is a huge point sink, it is not a cheap rhino.
Timur wrote: Thanks to all for the tips, ive been thinking about bringning rhinos, but my most important unit on the board is the hellblaster squad, i can hide them only in a repulsor, but i would have to drop the inceptors or something else to squeeze it in my list
Whats bad about repulsor is his 3+ save which is why i dont think hes that good to invest in
Tryin using 3-4 units of scouts to deny the deep strike. Your game plan is to have the scouts make a box around one corner of the table, as far away from each other as possible. You set up the hellblasters on top of a building in the corner, the rest of your army in a bubble around them, and the inceptors in reserve. If he goes first, he eats 1, maybe two layers of scouts but can't get to the important stuff. Inceptors land and kill the stealers, hellblasters kill the swarmlord. If you go first, plink at stuff, kill the swarmlord if he is on the table, otherwise just wait for his drop.
@Timur - are you using Auspex Scan Stratagem? I appreciate the reach of Swarmstealers is horrific and a 12” opportunity might not present itself, it still might give Intercessors a chance to double-tap from behind Scouts and take some out before Catalyst confers their 5+++.
Also, if you’ve not been enveloped, Intractable could let you fall back and shoot? Overcharged or Dark Age Hellblasters reduce the Catalyst save rate from 33% to about 11%.
@Thread - don’t underestimate the power of a bloodless second fight phase for a deep insertion unit. I’ve been maining my Word Bearers lately, with a max Terminator unit using Warptime to charge from DS and a 3CP Stratagem to fight a second time. Giving your unit two extra pile-in moves, even if it can’t even strike at anything because it didn’t declare charges, has benefits:
- entangle units without eating Overwatch - this is Kryptonite to Burna Boyz, Aggressors, etc
- opportunity to envelop models and prevent fall back moves
- it happens at the end of the fight phase. So, the extra units you reach out and tag do not get to attack you until the following fight phase
I’ve been burning all my CP to run Terminators 20” after teleporting to hug like the entire enemy army. It’s meeting a local metagame of fairly static screen-less gunlines in Mexican standoffs like a wrecking ball going through a greenhouse. Hope people figure out screening soon, or I’ll be TFG
lindsay40k wrote: @Timur - are you using Auspex Scan Stratagem? I appreciate the reach of Swarmstealers is horrific and a 12” opportunity might not present itself, it still might give Intercessors a chance to double-tap from behind Scouts and take some out before Catalyst confers their 5+++.
Also, if you’ve not been enveloped, Intractable could let you fall back and shoot? Overcharged or Dark Age Hellblasters reduce the Catalyst save rate from 33% to about 11%.
@Thread - don’t underestimate the power of a bloodless second fight phase for a deep insertion unit. I’ve been maining my Word Bearers lately, with a max Terminator unit using Warptime to charge from DS and a 3CP Stratagem to fight a second time. Giving your unit two extra pile-in moves, even if it can’t even strike at anything because it didn’t declare charges, has benefits:
- entangle units without eating Overwatch - this is Kryptonite to Burna Boyz, Aggressors, etc
- opportunity to envelop models and prevent fall back moves
- it happens at the end of the fight phase. So, the extra units you reach out and tag do not get to attack you until the following fight phase
I’ve been burning all my CP to run Terminators 20” after teleporting to hug like the entire enemy army. It’s meeting a local metagame of fairly static screen-less gunlines in Mexican standoffs like a wrecking ball going through a greenhouse. Hope people figure out screening soon, or I’ll be TFG
Usually my shooting guys are out of 12'' range to use auspex due to screening units, my opponent is well aware of this stratagem and deploys carefully.
Another combo he uses some times is he sends in a hyve tyrant (using swarmy's order) behind my screen and charge something, while i struggle to kill that thing he closes in with his other stuff
Did you try using aggressors? 3 of them eat stealers for breakfast.
Put them in range of what he is likely to charge and let them do the clean up. If they want to assault them too, they will have to declare them as targets, and overwatch from aggressors with azrael and a lieutenant... wow, you really don't want that.
Point of order, you can't place Genestealers lurking and then deep strike them later. If he's doing this with Lictors that is illegal. And he must declare they start with the Trygon in the tunnels.
It sounds like you aren't screening properly. But most importantly you just need dice volume. Aggressors are solid for this, as are assault cannon razorbacks. Genestealers aren't good at killing cheap vehicles... and you can always fall back and shoot them.
As for Carnifexes, if you have lascannons that problem is essentially solved.
elfmonkey16 wrote: Am I being trolled or are FHT’s getting a points nerf in some errata soon?
The March FAQ was specifically postponed to take into account the Adepicon results....in which there was at least 1 list that had 7+ FHTs.
The assumption is that FHTs are either getting a points hike or being limited to 1 per detachment (or both).
elfmonkey16 wrote: Am I being trolled or are FHT’s getting a points nerf in some errata soon?
It's being debated after a leak reported such. There hasn't been a FAQ in my memory that had a points cost change (not counting Chapter Approved), but the Commander Nerf has everyone with duplicate HQs (SM, BA, Tyranids, SOB, AM, GSC) afraid.
If they do, I would expect to see Manticores, Basilisks, Leman Russ, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Warlocks, Daemon Princes, and a few other things go up about 50% in price. It's beyond stupid that ONE event with a garbage ruleset would merit such a reaction, when Tyrants got STOMPED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET at LVO by Reaper spam, Chaos, and Imperium.
Tau vastly outperformed Tyranids at LVO, for example, with essentially the same concept.
To nerf Hive Tyrants is to erase viability of Tyranids in even casual metas. It is our one good HQ choice.
I wouldn't say our one good HQ choice. Malanthropes are good (Tho 20-30 pts overcosted, they provide an almost mandatory buff for many builds), and 1-2 neurothropes is still totally legit.
Tervigons are absolute trash. Primes are mostly trash (A jormungandr warrior build is interesting, and they would be important there). Broodlords are far too soft and expensive, but they hit like a truck and are fast. I'd say they're fine for non-tournament play.
[edit] But I agree, a points increase is unwarranted alongside an availability nerf.
So would anybody think about using Walkrants, if the changes are coming to Flyrants (1 per detachement, +20 points)?
I play them in casual lists with a HVC and find them pretty okay most of the time.
Astmeister wrote: So would anybody think about using Walkrants, if the changes are coming to Flyrants (1 per detachement, +20 points)?
I play them in casual lists with a HVC and find them pretty okay most of the time.
Tyrants on foot have the same 'problem' carnifex has. If kitted out for melee it cant shoot, if shooty it is mediocre in cc. Carnifexes can take Acid Maw and compensate the lack of cc arms. Tyrants can not act similar and degrade with incoming damage to carnifex levels.
But have a 4++ and can cast psychic powers.
I dont know...
In my meta, a walking tyrant is dead turn 1 or ignored if he cant harm anyone. So its not an option for me to use them.
I'd rather take a Broodlord with character protection than a walking tyrant. Being targetable by ranged attacks while being slow and not able to deep strike is just a death sentence.
Zimko wrote: I'd rather take a Broodlord with character protection than a walking tyrant. Being targetable by ranged attacks while being slow and not able to deep strike is just a death sentence.
I agree 100%. Walking Tyrants are poorly designed. If walking tyrants could deep strike (not sure what sort of fluff would justify this) would that make it viable?
I'd really like to see Walking Tyrants become viable, but with the limited mobility / durability / shooting / close combat ability, it just doesn't exist on the same level as a Flyrant.
ETA: Maybe if Tyrants granted Reroll 1's like a captain, they'd be worthwhile as a backfield support unit.
Agreed, walkrants and swarmy just get shot off the board unless you can hide them or DS them. If they fixed some of the other HQ we wouldn't see Flyrant spam.
Malanthrope needs to be about 110 and he would get more use.
Broodlord needs to drop by about 30 pts and he would get more use.
Neuros are in a decent spot, the smite changes really hurt them.
Tervigon, poor guy, just needs points drop and/or the ability to take some ranged weapons like HVC, maybe wound increase, and or drop to 9.
Prime has similar problem, hes a good buff for warrior, but needs better options.
Swarmy needs to be about 250 -270 and he would see more use I think. If he could take just a single Model of TG for that one turn to get him into combat that would help as well, but we gotta fill a 3 man slot. SMH.
Its all for naught, Adepticon has a "weird"mission set that happened to favor Nids, put nids in ITC with that list and we wont place. GW is going to overreact and nerfbatt us like a pinata. It really sucks, we lost our lictors, GSDS, a few of our key stratagems, our malanthropes, and now our Flyrants....
Marmatag wrote: Flying Hive Tyrants should not see a point hike. If they do, I would expect to see Manticores, Basilisks, Leman Russ, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Warlocks, Daemon Princes, and a few other things go up about 50% in price. It's beyond stupid that ONE event with a garbage ruleset would merit such a reaction, when Tyrants got STOMPED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET at LVO by Reaper spam, Chaos, and Imperium.
To play devils advocate, those units will probably also see adjustments. Adepticon is still fresh in people's minds and also had direct participation from the Warhammer Community team (who if I recall correctly, used Tyranids themselves), hence speculation and rumors that Tyrants are the reason the march FAQ was delayed.
To nerf Hive Tyrants is to erase viability of Tyranids in even casual metas. It is our one good HQ choice.
Not meaning to come across as insulting, but such a statement seems more appropriate for 7th edition than the current one. Even if the rumored nerf turns out correct, it will still be possible to bring at least 3-4 Tyrants using multiple detachments and if tournaments make adjustments to allow Dark Eldar to use their special army construction rules it could very well go up to 6.
As far as casual metas go, most of the HQ options are fine (even Tervigons if the list is built around them and neither side is really min-maxing). If anything, if the nerf comes to pass I'd be curious to see if it leads to more experimentation. Since 8th dropped most lists have been focusing heavily on the alpha strike aspect of the Tyranid army and neglecting the more attrition oriented aspects. I know Chaos has reportedly been doing well with horde + character lists and Tyranids are more than capable of running similar archetypes (especially with Hydra).
Tyrants on foot have the same 'problem' carnifex has. If kitted out for melee it cant shoot, if shooty it is mediocre in cc.
To be fair, that is the trade-off for specialization. On the flip side, specialists tend to be more efficient than generalists since they don't waste points on things they won't use while employing one function or another.
The issue with horde list in tourney scene is the TIME limit. You have to take movement trays otherwise you wont make it past 2 turns. Moving 200 models is just too much.
True, though realistically you won't have to move every model every turn and the spacing isn't as important with blasts and templates gone, thus saving a bit of time. Also one can always "cheat" a bit with the model count by setting points aside for Endless Swarm and just keep redeploying units as they get destroyed.
Walkrants are not so bad, sure they die, but they are in the cost range of something that should die when focused.
They are better dakkafexes with psy powers and synapse for about 50% more cost. Seems fair.
Dynas wrote: The issue with horde list in tourney scene is the TIME limit. You have to take movement trays otherwise you wont make it past 2 turns. Moving 200 models is just too much.
The movement phase isn't as bad as the shooting/assault phases, where you have to roll all those dice.
Chess clocks + Flyrant restrictions = Tyranids are done in 8th. It is wholly unreasonable to expect the average game to go to turn 5 but somehow that's where we've landed. Building a list to play faster = an acceptable stratagey, building a list that plays slower = unacceptable, apparently.
Zimko wrote: I'd rather take a Broodlord with character protection than a walking tyrant. Being targetable by ranged attacks while being slow and not able to deep strike is just a death sentence.
I agree 100%. Walking Tyrants are poorly designed. If walking tyrants could deep strike (not sure what sort of fluff would justify this) would that make it viable?
I'd really like to see Walking Tyrants become viable, but with the limited mobility / durability / shooting / close combat ability, it just doesn't exist on the same level as a Flyrant.
ETA: Maybe if Tyrants granted Reroll 1's like a captain, they'd be worthwhile as a backfield support unit.
Seriously? GW has made walking Tyrants require Tyrant Guard and honestly, would anyone take TG without walking Tyrants? No. Unfortunately, TG cost too many points and $£€.
Any tips in beating tyranids with sm ? No allies, no primaris.
I thought of using rhinos to assault his units to slow them, thunderfire with tremor ammo and scout screens.
Anything else ? What scare you the most in a space marine army ?
Fighting a Kraken army, by the way.
This game just doesn't play fast enough for it to be balanced around a 5+ turn game in a 2.5 hour window.
4 Turns is far more reasonable.
Halfway tempted to bring a horde list and play it normal speed and only make it to turn 2. When people complain ill just point to our nerfed Flyrants. lol
godardc wrote: Any tips in beating tyranids with sm ? No allies, no primaris.
I thought of using rhinos to assault his units to slow them, thunderfire with tremor ammo and scout screens.
Anything else ? What scare you the most in a space marine army ?
Fighting a Kraken army, by the way.
Assaulting kraken units doesn't slow them. It just gives them extra attacks. Kraken units can fallback and still charge in the same turn so the most you'll do is prevent them from advancing. Or you'll just give them handy boxes to surround so that they can survive your shooting phase.
The most worrisome units for me in the Space Marines codex is flyers with a lot of dakka (assault cannons and missiles) and a jumppack captain to give them rerolls when he deeps strikes in.
godardc wrote: Any tips in beating tyranids with sm ? No allies, no primaris.
I thought of using rhinos to assault his units to slow them, thunderfire with tremor ammo and scout screens.
Anything else ? What scare you the most in a space marine army ?
Fighting a Kraken army, by the way.
Assaulting kraken units doesn't slow them. It just gives them extra attacks. Kraken units can fallback and still charge in the same turn so the most you'll do is prevent them from advancing. Or you'll just give them handy boxes to surround so that they can survive your shooting phase.
The most worrisome units for me in the Space Marines codex is flyers with a lot of dakka (assault cannons and missiles) and a jumppack captain to give them rerolls when he deeps strikes in.
Good catch ! I had totally forgot about this part of the rule !
godardc wrote: Any tips in beating tyranids with sm ? No allies, no primaris.
I thought of using rhinos to assault his units to slow them, thunderfire with tremor ammo and scout screens.
Anything else ? What scare you the most in a space marine army ?
Fighting a Kraken army, by the way.
Reivers - the one job they excel at is cutting up large chunks of gaunts. Most tyranid lists *have* to engage in melee to work, so it really hurts them when melee with a decent armor save shows up
Artillery - Granted SM artillery isn't anything special, but being able to lay hurt on random deepstrikers is a good thing
Space Wolf Dreadnaughts - I hate those S10 melee hits so much. I've seen one eat three flyrants, one after the other.
The long and short of it is that SM already has an edge with their relatively good armor save, but are normally built as to suck at melee. Bring some melee support along and you can often turn the tables easily.
Take a couple of assault cannon razorbacks or Raptors for horde control. Take 2 squads of dev with lascannons. Take scouts to deny DS units. Take Bobby G and Tiggy if you have them. Be careful with Tiggy, as SitW and Kronos can really shut him down.
Snipers may be good b/c there are a lot of characters nids can choose from.
The key is to focus fire. There are going to be a lot of units and models, if you spread around your damage your gonna get swamped. Each turn all your horde clearing stuff needs to shoot the same unit, all the lascannons need to shoot the same MC until its dead and so on.
Use your scouts to screen/tie up/ and slow down the advance.
Shoot the Genestealers and hive Tyrants first, everything else is secondary priority.
Zimko wrote: I'd rather take a Broodlord with character protection than a walking tyrant. Being targetable by ranged attacks while being slow and not able to deep strike is just a death sentence.
I agree 100%. Walking Tyrants are poorly designed. If walking tyrants could deep strike (not sure what sort of fluff would justify this) would that make it viable?
I'd really like to see Walking Tyrants become viable, but with the limited mobility / durability / shooting / close combat ability, it just doesn't exist on the same level as a Flyrant.
ETA: Maybe if Tyrants granted Reroll 1's like a captain, they'd be worthwhile as a backfield support unit.
Not relevant to tactics at all, but fluff wise a walking Tyrant is supposed to be the anchor holding the swarm together and all but unkillable unless you cut through the masses to get to it. I think it would just need some sort of damage reduction buff built in in place of wings. Call it Reinforced Exoskeleton: reduce all damage taken by 2, to a minimum of 1. Bang, a ridiculous brick of a unit, and not overpowered because it has all the weaknesses of being slow and with limited ranged power for it’s cost.
Zimko wrote: I'd rather take a Broodlord with character protection than a walking tyrant. Being targetable by ranged attacks while being slow and not able to deep strike is just a death sentence.
I agree 100%. Walking Tyrants are poorly designed. If walking tyrants could deep strike (not sure what sort of fluff would justify this) would that make it viable?
I'd really like to see Walking Tyrants become viable, but with the limited mobility / durability / shooting / close combat ability, it just doesn't exist on the same level as a Flyrant.
ETA: Maybe if Tyrants granted Reroll 1's like a captain, they'd be worthwhile as a backfield support unit.
Not relevant to tactics at all, but fluff wise a walking Tyrant is supposed to be the anchor holding the swarm together and all but unkillable unless you cut through the masses to get to it. I think it would just need some sort of damage reduction buff built in in place of wings. Call it Reinforced Exoskeleton: reduce all damage taken by 2, to a minimum of 1. Bang, a ridiculous brick of a unit, and not overpowered because it has all the weaknesses of being slow and with limited ranged power for it’s cost.
Now back to our regular programming!
That is way over powered. All heavy guns are either D3 or D6 wounds. If you hit and wound with a full dev sq of 5 lascannons, your still only looking at 5 wounds a turn. You will get him in combat turn 2 with Kraken or Stratagems or 3 at the latest. You would definitely see HT spam then. Arguably more powerful than the wings.
Marmatag wrote:
The movement phase isn't as bad as the shooting/assault phases, where you have to roll all those dice.
To be fair, a unit of 30 Fleshborer Termagants is only throwing 6 more dice with their shooting than the duel Devourer Flyrant and people have been using the 30-strong Devourer Termagant brood (which throws significantly more dice) for chaff clearing. In melee a horde unit generally won't get to attack with all of its models simply due to space issues, so the total dice will generally be lower than the maximum capabilities.
v0iddrgn wrote:Seriously? GW has made walking Tyrants require Tyrant Guard and honestly, would anyone take TG without walking Tyrants?
Tyrant Guard actually aren't too bad with Hydra as an infantry-based replacement for assault monstrous creatures. Even a minimum sized unit can get the Hydra rerolls when going after characters or vehicles and can be respawned on the opponent's backfield if needed (reinforcement points permitting).
First game vs Necrons ended after 3, was about to probably table him. He didn't have a competitive list.
Second game vs Tyranids. Kronos with 2x rupturefex, exocrine, melee flyrant, 2 neurothropes, 20 GS, 4x10 termagants and some other stuff. I managed to wipe out almost all his stealers with the devourer gants, and assault with both GS squads. It would have been totally one sided, except he managed to kill like 8 GS with his neurothrope in one go, and I lost like 4-5 more to the Tyrannos and exocrine in one round of combat.
Third game vs 4 PBC, fire raptor, 2x3 oblits, misc stuff. Managed to pull off an 18-13 win, but going into 4 I was probably going to get tabled. I managed to keep him bottle up in his deployment zone by feeding him one unit at a time, and using hormagaunts with nurglings to keep locking stuff up. That damn tree really makes it a complete pain to deal with the crawlers. In hindsight, I should have player my Trygon more aggressively, if I had managed to get that into a tank I could have knocked one out and opened up some space to block some in. I also made a few other minor mistakes, and absolutely abysmally for saves, which probably cost me about a turn before (what would have been) my tabling.
I didn't like the mawloc. At all. I think 9 more Genestealers would have been better. Or maybe move some points around to fit in hive guard. 3 Hive Guard could really help with fire support vs distant enemies.
I'd even drop some gaunts and go to 5 biovores tbh.
The board control you get from being able to spawn the spores everywhere is great. Not to mention they are a threat to flyers.
I don't need board control. I need damage. Every game I play is me covering 60-75% of the board for 3 turns, then either turn 4 they're broken and I'm cleaning up, or turn 4 I'm broken and they're struggling to get across the board for objectives. No one comes out of their deployment zone against an army built like this. Those that do usually lose very, very badly. The counter play for my army is to sit in your deployment zone with a properly built castle, prevent me from giving a unit a death hug (Locking us both in combat through your turn and letting me get out at the end of yours or beginning of mine), and protect all your important assets.
This is why I either need Hive Guard or more Genestealers. Hive Guard I can use to pick on specific targets an enemy is using in their castle, and more Genestealers helps with making sure I have enough oomph to break through.
At this point I'm leaning towards the HG, though I'm really liking the 3rd unit of GS, and not certain that a single unit of 3 HG will be enough damage.
The trygon is just expensive lascannon bait IMO. I get the killing screens in shooting but if you learn how to wrap up screening units in close combat, you won’t need shooting. Or you can overrun and fight again to consolidate into basically their entire gunline turn 1. It’s some pretty hot nonsense
The trygon is just expensive lascannon bait IMO. I get the killing screens in shooting but if you learn how to wrap up screening units in close combat, you won’t need shooting. Or you can overrun and fight again to consolidate into basically their entire gunline turn 1. It’s some pretty hot nonsense
I actually use the dev gants to target things I need to kill, but can't reach in assault. Like you said, I use screening units against my opponent, and so I rarely use the dev gants for that. As I'm sure you know, but I'll explain for anyone else reading, when people screen they have two possible kinds of screens. Far out screens (Typically things like scouts) that prevent close deep strikes/movement, and close in screens (Like conscript walls) which act as an actual physical barrier. Far out screens are awesome for Tyranid lists, they guarantee turn 1 assaults and are often very easy to "death hug" (Surround while doing minimal casualties on the charge, so they dont die and can't fall back. Then you murder them in the opponent's assault phase and are free to move again in your turn. Mix with overrun and adrenaline surge for great effect). Close in screens can be an issue if they are good with their spacing/casualty removal, and we dontt get good charge distances. When people do close-in screens, I often opt to use the dev gants to kill counter assault units. The other thing I've had good luck with them with is knocking stormravens and the like down a firing profile. Combined with The Horror, that basically makes them useless.
Trygon is definitely lascannon bait, but it is also our best AT source. Because I DS them at the same time as the flyrants, any firepower put on them is firepower not put on my flyrants. I've yet to face a list that could remove all 3 in one go, while still dealing with all the GS/Horms infront of them. I've had several games where he was crucial to victory, because he was able to tear up armor that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to deal with.
As of now, I've lost 3 games with my competitive list. Two were legit losses and one was absolutely because I failed a critical onslaught cast (Rerolled one dice with neurothrope reroll and the other with CP... still failed it). I've had a few where I was about to start losing, but the nature of the list meant I was up on points at the end of round 3/4. The flipside to that is that I've struggled to get high scores in a few matches, but that was mostly due to time constraints.
I do like the gargoyles though, I think I may swap 30 horms to terms, and 30 to gargoyles. I usually end up keeping 30 of the horms to screen my backfield from DS, or they just don't really have room to move forward. The extra 4" on the gargs means that I can have a 17" advance pretty reliably. Even with kraken strat on a 5 horms are only 18", so it's a more consistent option for getting them forward. Their firepower isn't amazing, but 20-30 shots does add up to a few bodies here and there.
I also want to try a unit of 5-6 hive guard.
What do you use for relic/warlord trait? Guessing Kronos trait on a Neurothrope?
Big units of Hive Guard are utterly mean. You definitely need something able to cast Onslaught if you take them though. 36” range isn’t total board control, and you don’t want to neuter their firepower when they have to move.
This is all about board control and dealing damage. Meiotics protect my Hive Guard and help me with deep striking by preventing the deployment of Rangers or the movement of Scout Sentinals. Gargoyles will either screen or they'll deep strike and take a Swarmy boost to tie up an entire army or they will start on the board and play leapfrog with enemy units. Genes will start in the trygon and do the same thing but I consider Genes to be more a surgical strike. 2 Flyrants and Trygon are decent beatsticks and lascannon magnets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the coming nerf, I expect I'll have to change my list drastically sadly.
This is all about board control and dealing damage. Meiotics protect my Hive Guard and help me with deep striking by preventing the deployment of Rangers or the movement of Scout Sentinals. Gargoyles will either screen or they'll deep strike and take a Swarmy boost to tie up an entire army or they will start on the board and play leapfrog with enemy units. Genes will start in the trygon and do the same thing but I consider Genes to be more a surgical strike. 2 Flyrants and Trygon are decent beatsticks and lascannon magnets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the coming nerf, I expect I'll have to change my list drastically sadly.
You dont got more than 1 Flyrant per detachment, so no problem?
This is all about board control and dealing damage. Meiotics protect my Hive Guard and help me with deep striking by preventing the deployment of Rangers or the movement of Scout Sentinals. Gargoyles will either screen or they'll deep strike and take a Swarmy boost to tie up an entire army or they will start on the board and play leapfrog with enemy units. Genes will start in the trygon and do the same thing but I consider Genes to be more a surgical strike. 2 Flyrants and Trygon are decent beatsticks and lascannon magnets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the coming nerf, I expect I'll have to change my list drastically sadly.
You dont got more than 1 Flyrant per detachment, so no problem?
It depends on if they make it a keyword thing. The Swarmlord has the 'Hive Tyrant' keyword.
First game vs Necrons ended after 3, was about to probably table him. He didn't have a competitive list.
Second game vs Tyranids. Kronos with 2x rupturefex, exocrine, melee flyrant, 2 neurothropes, 20 GS, 4x10 termagants and some other stuff. I managed to wipe out almost all his stealers with the devourer gants, and assault with both GS squads. It would have been totally one sided, except he managed to kill like 8 GS with his neurothrope in one go, and I lost like 4-5 more to the Tyrannos and exocrine in one round of combat.
Third game vs 4 PBC, fire raptor, 2x3 oblits, misc stuff. Managed to pull off an 18-13 win, but going into 4 I was probably going to get tabled. I managed to keep him bottle up in his deployment zone by feeding him one unit at a time, and using hormagaunts with nurglings to keep locking stuff up. That damn tree really makes it a complete pain to deal with the crawlers. In hindsight, I should have player my Trygon more aggressively, if I had managed to get that into a tank I could have knocked one out and opened up some space to block some in. I also made a few other minor mistakes, and absolutely abysmally for saves, which probably cost me about a turn before (what would have been) my tabling.
I didn't like the mawloc. At all. I think 9 more Genestealers would have been better. Or maybe move some points around to fit in hive guard. 3 Hive Guard could really help with fire support vs distant enemies.
Drop the Mawloc and the ten man GS unit for 6 Hive guard. They are well worth the points and will fix you issue with tanks like the crawler. I run Kraken and i have found the full unit of hive guard are just worth there wait in gold. They are better than ten GS and a Mawloc. Totally worth the loss of the small squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zimko wrote: I could. The only problem is that one hive tyrant gives up 4 points to kingslayer, 1 for headhunter and 1 for big game hunter if it's killed.
A tyrant // Swarmlord only gives up 4 points in king-slayer if you make it your warlord. Never do that. Most people never take 4 MC 2 or 3 at the most. Most Tyranid list i have seen give up 3 Head hunter at the most.
It is easy to limit the amount of points a person can get. With nids. I never give up for innless i want to make my opponent to focus on that secondary and i can delay it making them pay for it.
Example. I run a 9 man squad of warriors with a prime. But i don't put them on the table entail turn two or three limiting the chance to get the 4 point that unit can give up. Most of the time I only give up 1 or 2 points.
It works well if you are the one making them pick the scoundarys you want them too.
This is all about board control and dealing damage. Meiotics protect my Hive Guard and help me with deep striking by preventing the deployment of Rangers or the movement of Scout Sentinals. Gargoyles will either screen or they'll deep strike and take a Swarmy boost to tie up an entire army or they will start on the board and play leapfrog with enemy units. Genes will start in the trygon and do the same thing but I consider Genes to be more a surgical strike. 2 Flyrants and Trygon are decent beatsticks and lascannon magnets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the coming nerf, I expect I'll have to change my list drastically sadly.
How do you keep Swarmy alive? Pray for good terrain?
How do you keep Swarmy alive? Pray for good terrain?
I don't have to pray. I live in the northern virginia area and play with the people that created the terrain for NOVA OPEN major tournament. All the tournaments here like to use 2 large pieces of LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the board on every table. We all much prefer it that way as we remember the dark times of 5th edition and the leaf-blower lists.
Zimko wrote: I could. The only problem is that one hive tyrant gives up 4 points to kingslayer, 1 for headhunter and 1 for big game hunter if it's killed.
A tyrant // Swarmlord only gives up 4 points in king-slayer if you make it your warlord. Never do that. Most people never take 4 MC 2 or 3 at the most. Most Tyranid list i have seen give up 3 Head hunter at the most.
It is easy to limit the amount of points a person can get. With nids. I never give up for innless i want to make my opponent to focus on that secondary and i can delay it making them pay for it.
Example. I run a 9 man squad of warriors with a prime. But i don't put them on the table entail turn two or three limiting the chance to get the 4 point that unit can give up. Most of the time I only give up 1 or 2 points.
It works well if you are the one making them pick the scoundarys you want them too.
I was responding the suggestion of putting my HT in the Kronos detachment of my list and making it the warlord.
Zimko wrote: I could. The only problem is that one hive tyrant gives up 4 points to kingslayer, 1 for headhunter and 1 for big game hunter if it's killed.
I think he only gives up 3 for kingslayer since he has the monster keyword.
killerpenguin wrote: What kind of lists are you guys gonna run if there’s a limit of one HT pr detachment?
Depends on what else changes and if the tyrant in general or just the flying one is limited. Will beta rules be made regular rules? Without the smite output you may want to limit them anyways.
Had some thoughts on Godzilla Hive Tyrant list by foot. Or mixing them with carnifexes. OOE, 9 carnies (double devourer, acid maw) and 2-3 Tyrants, adding hive guard/biovores and a neurothrope.
The trygon is just expensive lascannon bait IMO. I get the killing screens in shooting but if you learn how to wrap up screening units in close combat, you won’t need shooting. Or you can overrun and fight again to consolidate into basically their entire gunline turn 1. It’s some pretty hot nonsense
I actually use the dev gants to target things I need to kill, but can't reach in assault.
The other issue I have in my list is fitting that detachment in. It would probably be a jormungandr patrol with Raveners tunneling them in (because I also find the Trygon to be rather expensive, and I like the Raveners better in general), but then I'm getting to some serious HQ saturation points, especially with smite being how it is now.
Far out screens are awesome for Tyranid lists, they guarantee turn 1 assaults and are often very easy to "death hug" (Surround while doing minimal casualties on the charge, so they dont die and can't fall back.)
Just a tidbit on that - no reason to do "minimal damage". The last time I said "oh I'll just do minimal damage this turn", Ahriman flat solo'd a rhino. Literally lost me a tournament. (Well robbed me of 3-0 anyhow). Whenever you're intending to lock a unit up, avoid the dice gods and just don't declare the second unit as a target of your charge. Then you can do literally zero damage and are guaranteed to lock the unit up as long as you pile and consolidate properly.
Trygon is definitely lascannon bait, but it is also our best AT source. Because I DS them at the same time as the flyrants, any firepower put on them is firepower not put on my flyrants. I've yet to face a list that could remove all 3 in one go, while still dealing with all the GS/Horms infront of them. I've had several games where he was crucial to victory, because he was able to tear up armor that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to deal with.
Tie up with genestealers. I've killed entire IG parking lots with them. It doesn't go fast, but you're Kraken, and they hit on 6's in cc.
I do like the gargoyles though, I think I may swap 30 horms to terms, and 30 to gargoyles. I usually end up keeping 30 of the horms to screen my backfield from DS, or they just don't really have room to move forward. The extra 4" on the gargs means that I can have a 17" advance pretty reliably. Even with kraken strat on a 5 horms are only 18", so it's a more consistent option for getting them forward. Their firepower isn't amazing, but 20-30 shots does add up to a few bodies here and there.
For me, my backfield deep strike denial is rippers and Hive Guard. Assuming I go first of course. Otherwise, it's my entire army
Horms are chaff but a beautiful target for either onslaught or metabolic movement. Gargs with a swarmy move will literally assault right over the far out screens, and I can't tell you how amazing small models with fly are for assault in general. Plus they just have so many fearless bodies. It's brutally obnoxious.
What do you use for relic/warlord trait? Guessing Kronos trait on a Neurothrope?
Hive guard are the bees knees. And yes you're correct on the warlord. Relic I generally just put on the malanthrope for -1 to hit. Just in case some nonsense happens late game.
killerpenguin wrote: What kind of lists are you guys gonna run if there’s a limit of one HT pr detachment?
Assuming both tyrants capped, and a +15 on MRC and +15 on wings which is the most probable case, i would just keep playing the way i'm playing right now, with a single Walkrant because i don't like the flyrant model
killerpenguin wrote: What kind of lists are you guys gonna run if there’s a limit of one HT pr detachment?
Depends on what else changes and if the tyrant in general or just the flying one is limited. Will beta rules be made regular rules? Without the smite output you may want to limit them anyways.
Had some thoughts on Godzilla Hive Tyrant list by foot. Or mixing them with carnifexes. OOE, 9 carnies (double devourer, acid maw) and 2-3 Tyrants, adding hive guard/biovores and a neurothrope.
What are your opionion in carnifexes this ed. I’ve magnetised one, but haven’t tried it yet.
Smite output is decent with beta rules, but I agree it’s more limited with 5 flyrants. But with 3, 1 per detachment, we’ll be fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is what I plan on testing out for competitive ITC for now. I’m considering making room for a mucolid to get 16 units so I can DS 8. Not getting much response my post in army lists. Any suggestions on changes?
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, The Reaper of Obilterax, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Soul Hunger, Wings
If we see the limit to one Tyrant per detachment, I'll still happily keep my set up since I run one Maleceptor in place of the 3rd since that +1 psyker bonus comes in handy with the new smite rules.
Karang029 wrote: If we see the limit to one Tyrant per detachment, I'll still happily keep my set up since I run one Maleceptor in place of the 3rd since that +1 psyker bonus comes in handy with the new smite rules.
I would rather see the limit one per detachment across all armies for certain HQ than a point hike. I just hope Swarmy isn't counted.
I have a unit of 6 Hive guard with impalers. I am thinking of running a second unit and was looing at the making them shock canons.
So a unit of 5 impailers and one of 4 shock.
Should I keep th e impalers at 6
Is a unit of 3 shock worth it? Or should I make them all Impalers??.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I been having a lot of fun with Genestealers in kraken lately. Everyone knows how good they can be.
I been looking at playing the Jormungandr Hive Fleet again. It was my first pick when the Codex drop but I than found Kraken 2 months ago and haven't played much else. Looking at doing a Beta Strike for the assault force's. List has lots of shooting.
Has anyone played with the Extended Carapace for the 3 plus save coming out of a Tunnels or walking counter charge unit.?
I have a list that gives me the Choice of either a Unit of warriors or a unit of stealers to come out with a Trygon or raveners. The idea is to be able to apply the right unit to solution. I will have a Broodlord and a prime so both units are optmised for their Job.
Both units have a 3= save if the don't charge. If I am going to charge I will likely go with the warriors and have the stealers move up with the double move stratagem so they don't lose the 3+ and can assault the next turn. the Brood lord will be Able to keep up if walking as he can advance and be protected.
I think this will give me a resilient assault force while Hive guard and Dakka Fex do their thing.
Has someone done something like this? How did it work? What where the issues and what where the strengths?? or what you liked about it and what you didn't?
Has anyone found toxin sacs worth it? They seam to pricy outside Power Level games.
Genestealers still want to advance so Jormungander isn’t great for just turn 1 Alpha protection if you go second. If it was just for charging I’d be a fan. But not being able to advance is a problem. Makes the benefit too situational. Good for alternative deployment though like tunneling in Devourer Gaunts. Pew pew! And Gaunts having a 5+ save is surprisingly nice!
Also, falling back from combat and charging....GOOD LORD. It’s just too good. And the extra advance dice mean you’re moving so far every turn. It’s kind of silly
Hive guard are great but no shock cannons. Ignore LOS weaponry at str 8 is just too good. And the better range is nice also. You can certainly run 2 units of 6 hive guard and be very happy with the results. A lot of tournament lists were doing that not too long ago.
I've been lurking here for a long while. I'm returning to 40k since not playing a game since 5th. I'm trying to build a 1000pt nid list for a game against guard. Very casual meta, i just want my list to be competitive. Guard player is bringing two infanty platoons with chimeras, a few veteran squads, a leman russ, company command squad and sentinel. So far my list looks like this:
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Tyranids) [63 PL, 1004pts] ++
Seeing that Mawlocs are better than people have expected, I was thinking of picking some up. My question is whether they do their job when playing just one, or whether they only work in multiples?
Waaagh Grognut wrote: Swapping out the Mawloc's for 2 carnifex's with death spitters is a little cheaper. Could be a good move.
This. Mawlocs look cool, and the rules sound cool, but in practicality they just get killed the turn the pop.
Also, you can only have 4x acid maws since you are not at 20x (max unit size) for your GS.
But thats their purpose. You have to kill them, otherwise the will tie up alot of things. This means that they don't shoot at your other units like Flyrants. So... for 104 pts, its dirtcheap for that. If you have 4 mawlocs it gets very hard to get rid of them.
In ITC for example the mawlocs are vey popular to snipe som characters and to score points. If they dont get terminated they can borrow again and use Terror from the Deep. You can even start them on the board to get over 50% on the board and then borrow them. The Mawlocs have a place but you have to be smart with them.
I love my mawlocs, i use 3 I my current list. I usually lose a couple first turn, if my enemy has enough high Melta, lascannon type weapons. But that’s 208 points lost in a turn if I go first, which isn’t much. They also help get recon I almost always chose recon as a secondary.
Waaagh Grognut wrote: Swapping out the Mawloc's for 2 carnifex's with death spitters is a little cheaper. Could be a good move.
This. Mawlocs look cool, and the rules sound cool, but in practicality they just get killed the turn the pop.
Also, you can only have 4x acid maws since you are not at 20x (max unit size) for your GS.
But thats their purpose. You have to kill them, otherwise the will tie up alot of things. This means that they don't shoot at your other units like Flyrants. So... for 104 pts, its dirtcheap for that. If you have 4 mawlocs it gets very hard to get rid of them.
In ITC for example the mawlocs are vey popular to snipe som characters and to score points. If they dont get terminated they can borrow again and use Terror from the Deep. You can even start them on the board to get over 50% on the board and then borrow them. The Mawlocs have a place but you have to be smart with them.
I know that, but that doesn't fit his list. He only has GS and a Broodlord. He doesn't really have any anti tank. Mawloc S6 with no AP.... He needs to be able to take out some tanks. Maybe having 1 mawloc would pose a significant distraction from so other Anti tank, like hive guard, biovores, fexes, etc...
Aberrants
. Aberrant: Power Hammer
. Aberrant: Power Hammer
. Aberrant: Power Hammer
. Aberrant: Power Hammer
. Aberrant: Power Hammer
. Aberrant: Power Hammer
shadowfinder wrote: I have a unit of 6 Hive guard with impalers. I am thinking of running a second unit and was looing at the making them shock canons.
So a unit of 5 impailers and one of 4 shock.
Should I keep th e impalers at 6
Is a unit of 3 shock worth it? Or should I make them all Impalers??.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I been having a lot of fun with Genestealers in kraken lately. Everyone knows how good they can be.
I been looking at playing the Jormungandr Hive Fleet again. It was my first pick when the Codex drop but I than found Kraken 2 months ago and haven't played much else. Looking at doing a Beta Strike for the assault force's. List has lots of shooting.
Has anyone played with the Extended Carapace for the 3 plus save coming out of a Tunnels or walking counter charge unit.?
I have a list that gives me the Choice of either a Unit of warriors or a unit of stealers to come out with a Trygon or raveners. The idea is to be able to apply the right unit to solution. I will have a Broodlord and a prime so both units are optmised for their Job.
Both units have a 3= save if the don't charge. If I am going to charge I will likely go with the warriors and have the stealers move up with the double move stratagem so they don't lose the 3+ and can assault the next turn. the Brood lord will be Able to keep up if walking as he can advance and be protected.
I think this will give me a resilient assault force while Hive guard and Dakka Fex do their thing.
Has someone done something like this? How did it work? What where the issues and what where the strengths?? or what you liked about it and what you didn't?
Has anyone found toxin sacs worth it? They seam to pricy outside Power Level games.
You could consider running a Jorgmundr battalion for shock Hive Guard. Neuorothrope, Neuorothrope, 3x3 Rippers, 3 Raveners, 6 Hive Guard. The Rippers deploy on the table, the rest DS go with the Raveners. The battalion gives you the 3 CP you need to put the Neuros and Hive Guard in the tunnels. When you come up, you smite twice, then double tap the Hive Guard into metal boxes. 12d3 shots, hitting on 3's, 50% of which give out mortal wounds is killing most non-superheavy vehicles.
If you run one of the Neuros as warlord, you can use the Jorg. warlord trait, which gives a 3 inch ignores cover bubble, which is solid on shock Hive Guard. You could expand the detachment with a second Ravener unit and a big squad of devilgaunts, who like the +1 save, don't have any reason to advance/charge, and certainly don't mind ignoring cover.
Hey Guys! I am thinking about starting a new army. Atm im playing necrons, tau and admech and want to play a melee setup with 2-3 big things at about 1000pts. What can you recommend me and how should i start collecting?
_Ness wrote: Hey Guys! I am thinking about starting a new army. Atm im playing necrons, tau and admech and want to play a melee setup with 2-3 big things at about 1000pts. What can you recommend me and how should i start collecting?
Furthermore, which hive swam should i focus on?
cheers and thanks in advance!
If you want to use CC as your main attack, Krakon is hard to beat. Hydra can do well with Hormagaunt swarms as a base. It kind of varies, Jormangandr is a strong choice because of its features let you tank shots, and tunnel taxi units.
_Ness wrote: Hey Guys! I am thinking about starting a new army. Atm im playing necrons, tau and admech and want to play a melee setup with 2-3 big things at about 1000pts. What can you recommend me and how should i start collecting?
Furthermore, which hive swam should i focus on?
cheers and thanks in advance!
If you want to use CC as your main attack, Krakon is hard to beat. Hydra can do well with Hormagaunt swarms as a base. It kind of varies, Jormangandr is a strong choice because of its features let you tank shots, and tunnel taxi units.
weeeeellll thanks! so what should i buy?
what should i get when im facing psyker heavy aemies? (like my local meta)
_Ness wrote: Hey Guys! I am thinking about starting a new army. Atm im playing necrons, tau and admech and want to play a melee setup with 2-3 big things at about 1000pts. What can you recommend me and how should i start collecting?
Furthermore, which hive swam should i focus on?
cheers and thanks in advance!
If you want to use CC as your main attack, Krakon is hard to beat. Hydra can do well with Hormagaunt swarms as a base. It kind of varies, Jormangandr is a strong choice because of its features let you tank shots, and tunnel taxi units.
Kraken is too good to pass up IMO. And not just because you can yell "RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!" every game. The fall back and charge (and added mobility) cannot be overstated in terms of their importance.
I like to bring a second battalion of Kronos to counteract the psykers that are prevalent in the game today. They are perhaps the strongest anti-psyker faction in the game. Also, for units that like to sit back and shoot, giving them re-rolls of 1 to hit when they are stationary (which for many of our big gun beasts/hive guard, they will be for much of the game) is super clutch.
So my recipe:
Kraken Batallion
Kronos Batallion
If extra units, do whatever you want (maybe some Jormungandr for tunneling)
The ability of Genestealers to charge after advancing makes them incredible assets for a faction that has a super advance and a Stratagem to double it. The second move afforded by Swarmlord makes it a viable asset in a Kraken force, but don’t assume it will survive every game long enough to kill as many points as you spend on it. It’s the disruption of twenty genestealers charging on the first turn that it delivers. Have means to shoot a corridor through a screen and dinner is served on turn one.
In 1K, it’s not easy to build a two battalion list. Especially if you want your Troops to be numerous enough to really leverage the abilities of Tyranids. There’s arguments for the Kronos detachment to be a Neurothrope or two (including Warlord), and three units of cheap chaff with disruption ability. Rippers, Spore Mines and Meiotic Spores are strong candidates for filler units. (The latter have unique distinction at screening deep strikes and infiltration.)
'BATTLE BROTHERS
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot
be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect on your
Army Faction.'
Does this mean the GSC cultist I have been painting the last 2 months cannot support my tyranids?
'BATTLE BROTHERS
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot
be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect on your
Army Faction.'
Does this mean the GSC cultist I have been painting the last 2 months cannot support my tyranids?
You can still have a detachment of Tyranids, and a detachment of GSC, but you can no longer for example put a Magus in a Tyranid brigade to fill out slots. Its per detachment.
For example, your whole army must have the Tyranid keyword to be legal.
Within that army you could have 1 detachment Tyranids, 1 of GSC and i assume 1 of Brood brothers (should be cleared up when the book hits.
Simply means that aside from the few exceptions (ynnari characters, assassins etc, all units in any given detachment must now be from the same book.
Yeah, we all knew the flyrant was gonna get hit, But I reckon its the max 3 of any given non troop, non transport that hits it worse. No more 7= flyrant lists.
Still, Time to get painting my Walkrants again as the points difference now makes them a valid alternative.
Gonna have a walkrant with guard as my warlord, Flyrant as support.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On ano0ther note, im really happy with the cp changes as i run a pure kraken brigade list wooo!!!
'Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power,
can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?
A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every
other unit has done so.'
With good argumentsb on both sides and abgius language in the wording it is good to see this get an awnser. And boys and girls and sexles nids, we got a good psykick power!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also from the nid FAQ:
Page 119 – Sporefield
Change the first sentence of rules text to read:
‘Use this Stratagem after both armies have deployed but
before the first battle round begins.’
Change this Detachment’s command benefits to read ‘+12 Command Points.’
Does this mean we have points left for the spore stratagem?
Edit, never mind. Found this:
Q: If both players have units with abilities that allow them to be
set up during deployment ‘after both armies are fully deployed’
(e.g. Ratlings’ Find the Best Spot), which player deploys their
units first?
A: The players should roll off and, starting with the
winner, they should alternate setting up such units
There are really a lot of them, i have no idea how the game will be after all of those.
If the game moves away from turn 1 alpha strikes, then i will love these changes since it opens even more lists possiblities for us, but if it doesn't we got even more dependant on Kraken.
"The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No."
I'm so bummed out right now. I'm gonna have to change up my list and play style completely. No round 1 DS, thats some BS, if you know what i mean.
"oh hi IG, I got first turn? Yea, I'll come in next round, have fun shooting at whatever I have on the board this round, there'll be more next round. Have fun!"
So the Swarmy/'stealer drop is dead. Mass Flyrants are dead.
Outside of Flyrant spam the 3 per isn't going to hurt much.
Looks like Kraken/Kronos are going to be the staple. Maybe a Jormg. splash for devilgaunts.
Maybe drop Swarmy as part of a Kraken list to lock in a 'stealer charge? With walking 'stealers Mal/venomthropes seem essential. WIth how expensive the Malenthrope is i guess hope for good LOS blockers to hid the venoms in?
Anyone notice that interceptor style rules like Early Warning Overide resolve before guys get out of deep striking transports? Protects Swarmy when he comes in from a pod, but less important now that drop lists are discouraged. Based on how it's worded, I _think_ that units coming out of tunnels would still be vulnerable, but I could see them going the other direction with it.
Multiple uses of before the battle stratigiums specifically allowed. With the extra CP floating around Jormg. would be golden, except for the Swarmy change.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
killerpenguin wrote: I'm so bummed out right now. I'm gonna have to change up my list and play style completely. No round 1 DS, thats some BS, if you know what i mean.
"oh hi IG, I got first turn? Yea, I'll come in next round, have fun shooting at whatever I have on the board this round, there'll be more next round. Have fun!"
The 50% power level on the table is going to hurt more than the turn 1 deployment zone.
killerpenguin wrote: I'm so bummed out right now. I'm gonna have to change up my list and play style completely. No round 1 DS, thats some BS, if you know what i mean.
"oh hi IG, I got first turn? Yea, I'll come in next round, have fun shooting at whatever I have on the board this round, there'll be more next round. Have fun!"
The 50% power level on the table is going to hurt more than the turn 1 deployment zone.
Both is gonna hurt like crazy. We are gonna struggle against gunlines. If we didn't struggle before, we are really gonna feel it now.
How do they justify nerfing alpha strike like this?
killerpenguin wrote: I'm so bummed out right now. I'm gonna have to change up my list and play style completely. No round 1 DS, thats some BS, if you know what i mean.
"oh hi IG, I got first turn? Yea, I'll come in next round, have fun shooting at whatever I have on the board this round, there'll be more next round. Have fun!"
The 50% power level on the table is going to hurt more than the turn 1 deployment zone.
Both is gonna hurt like crazy. We are gonna struggle against gunlines. If we didn't struggle before, we are really gonna feel it now.
How do they justify nerfing alpha strike like this?
Nerfing alpha strike was sorely needed, games cannot be decided turn 1!
If they managed to move the main action to turn 2, then this game just got incredibly better, time will tell if the nerfs they made to the specific gunlines will be enough to not make them rule the meta.
killerpenguin wrote: I'm so bummed out right now. I'm gonna have to change up my list and play style completely. No round 1 DS, thats some BS, if you know what i mean.
"oh hi IG, I got first turn? Yea, I'll come in next round, have fun shooting at whatever I have on the board this round, there'll be more next round. Have fun!"
The 50% power level on the table is going to hurt more than the turn 1 deployment zone.
Both is gonna hurt like crazy. We are gonna struggle against gunlines. If we didn't struggle before, we are really gonna feel it now.
How do they justify nerfing alpha strike like this?
Nerfing alpha strike was sorely needed, games cannot be decided turn 1!
If they managed to move the main action to turn 2, then this game just got incredibly better, time will tell if the nerfs they made to the specific gunlines will be enough to not make them rule the meta.
Someone in a different thread said that they made comments to the effect that this was intended to nerf plasma spam alpha strikes. Not exactly sure why they thought that was needed, or how it impacts the handful of lists that use drop plasma, but GW gonna GW.
Wilson wrote: Big nerf to swarmlord;- you can no longer move again after deepstriking using the hive commander ability. Main rulebook FAQ.
yeah. Basically we are no longer a DS army. Jorm is done.
Flyrant DS is done
Swarmy Slingshotty a DS unit is done
Biovore spore mine "spam" is hurt pt increaes to 50
Flyrants point increase to 170 (0-3 units; im personally ok with this)
In other news... we did get 1 good change. Paroxysm does beat out Counter Offensive.
EDIT: Whats crazy is the Necrons Night Scythe and Monolith can use Invasion Beams (DS) there units in at the BEGINNING Of the movement phase and still move their guys. They have 1 maybe 2 units that benefit from an assault style list, meanwhile, the assault style list of nids have just turned into cannon fodder. Anything not wearing power armor must DIE DIE DIE!
EDIT 2: Just saw this
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.? A: No."
I should have kept reading welp. We cant even overdrive anymore.
Well...too soon to tell, but we might just be the best Beta strikers in the game. Jormangandr might become the new contender for "best" Hive Fleet. I already build around one Brigade, so most of this seems to not hit me. Did I see that "Brotherhood of Psychers" ignores the Smite nurf...I need to check how my beloved Zoeies are written up.....
The competitiveness of the whole game has gone down considerably, we are not the only ones who lost something, nor we are the ones who were more hurt by this FAQ.
Sure, our top stuff is gone, but also the top stuff of all other factions is gone, so before losing ourselves in negativity, we should try to assess the new global situation.
We could easily come on top after all this, simply because our top builds were just the lid that covered a codex full of viable builds that were just a little bit worse. Flyrants and mega alpha strikes were not a clutch for us.
Compare that to what other factions have lost:
- Eldars? Point increases to all psy supports, point increases on DA, nerf to WoP, nerf to Quicken, nerf to fire and fade...
- Blood angels? RIP
. Poxwalker farms? RIP
- Tzangor/bloodletter bombs? RIP
- Scion plasma? RIP
- Dark talon spam? RIP
- Mortar spam? RIP
. PB crawler spam? RIP
- Oblits? Coming turn 2
- And so on and so on...
The game is so different now that saying "We suck because we lost our top builds" is meaningless.
The 2 only possible troubles come from long range castles, which right now are 2 factions:
- AM - T'au
We are a counter to both of these, simply because they are BS4+ factions, and we can provide plenty of hit penalties.
In addition, AM has lost what made the lists possible, which is the mobile element: Scion or BA complement. If they want to go the gunline route, they will have to do it the hard way, which is zero mobility.
The competitiveness of the whole game has gone down considerably, we are not the only ones who lost something, nor we are the ones who were more hurt by this FAQ.
Sure, our top stuff is gone, but also the top stuff of all other factions is gone, so before losing ourselves in negativity, we should try to assess the new global situation.
We could easily come on top after all this, simply because our top builds were just the lid that covered a codex full of viable builds that were just a little bit worse. Flyrants and mega alpha strikes were not a clutch for us.
Compare that to what other factions have lost:
- Eldars? Point increases to all psy supports, point increases on DA, nerf to WoP, nerf to Quicken, nerf to fire and fade...
- Blood angels? RIP
. Poxwalker farms? RIP
- Tzangor/bloodletter bombs? RIP
- Scion plasma? RIP
- Dark talon spam? RIP
- Mortar spam? RIP
. PB crawler spam? RIP
- Oblits? Coming turn 2
- And so on and so on...
The game is so different now that saying "We suck because we lost our top builds" is meaningless.
The 2 only possible troubles come from long range castles, which right now are 2 factions:
- AM - T'au
We are a counter to both of these, simply because they are BS4+ factions, and we can provide plenty of hit penalties.
In addition, AM has lost what made the lists possible, which is the mobile element: Scion or BA complement. If they want to go the gunline route, they will have to do it the hard way, which is zero mobility.
T'au did also lose the drone alpha strike.
Let's play it out guys, this is a new world.
I agree with you. However, I think that the Guard lists can now just field 3 Heavy weapon squads + 3 Leman Russ + 3 Manticore and the Scions can still deep strike turn 2 and do their thing.
I am also afraid that it will be the return of mass spamming AssBack + Gulliman.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some other questions/discussions?
- How much more important are Venomthropes now? You have to at least field 50% of your army on the field and can be shot for one round...
- Is the Mawlock still interesting, since he cannot do damage turn 1?
- How much better got the survival Hive Traits like Leviathan and Jormungandr?
The competitiveness of the whole game has gone down considerably, we are not the only ones who lost something, nor we are the ones who were more hurt by this FAQ.
Sure, our top stuff is gone, but also the top stuff of all other factions is gone, so before losing ourselves in negativity, we should try to assess the new global situation.
We could easily come on top after all this, simply because our top builds were just the lid that covered a codex full of viable builds that were just a little bit worse. Flyrants and mega alpha strikes were not a clutch for us.
Compare that to what other factions have lost:
- Eldars? Point increases to all psy supports, point increases on DA, nerf to WoP, nerf to Quicken, nerf to fire and fade...
- Blood angels? RIP
. Poxwalker farms? RIP
- Tzangor/bloodletter bombs? RIP
- Scion plasma? RIP
- Dark talon spam? RIP
- Mortar spam? RIP
. PB crawler spam? RIP
- Oblits? Coming turn 2
- And so on and so on...
The game is so different now that saying "We suck because we lost our top builds" is meaningless.
The 2 only possible troubles come from long range castles, which right now are 2 factions:
- AM - T'au
We are a counter to both of these, simply because they are BS4+ factions, and we can provide plenty of hit penalties. In addition, AM has lost what made the lists possible, which is the mobile element: Scion or BA complement. If they want to go the gunline route, they will have to do it the hard way, which is zero mobility.
T'au did also lose the drone alpha strike.
Let's play it out guys, this is a new world.
I agree with you. However, I think that the Guard lists can now just field 3 Heavy weapon squads + 3 Leman Russ + 3 Manticore and the Scions can still deep strike turn 2 and do their thing. That would a terrible list though, it loses against many more lists than it wins against (loses against all hordes and all lists with hit penalties). I am also afraid that it will be the return of mass spamming AssBack + Gulliman. Nah, that list was killed by all the cost increaes on Gman, assault cannons and razorbacks. It's not going to be brough back by yet another cost increase. Even if it happens, that list is based on range 24", not exactly a turn 1 thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some other questions/discussions?
- How much more important are Venomthropes now? You have to at least field 50% of your army on the field and can be shot for one round...
- Is the Mawlock still interesting, since he cannot do damage turn 1?
- How much better got the survival Hive Traits like Leviathan and Jormungandr?
The competitiveness of the whole game has gone down considerably, we are not the only ones who lost something, nor we are the ones who were more hurt by this FAQ.
Sure, our top stuff is gone, but also the top stuff of all other factions is gone, so before losing ourselves in negativity, we should try to assess the new global situation.
We could easily come on top after all this, simply because our top builds were just the lid that covered a codex full of viable builds that were just a little bit worse. Flyrants and mega alpha strikes were not a clutch for us.
Compare that to what other factions have lost:
- Eldars? Point increases to all psy supports, point increases on DA, nerf to WoP, nerf to Quicken, nerf to fire and fade...
- Blood angels? RIP
. Poxwalker farms? RIP
- Tzangor/bloodletter bombs? RIP
- Scion plasma? RIP
- Dark talon spam? RIP
- Mortar spam? RIP
. PB crawler spam? RIP
- Oblits? Coming turn 2
- And so on and so on...
The game is so different now that saying "We suck because we lost our top builds" is meaningless.
The 2 only possible troubles come from long range castles, which right now are 2 factions:
- AM - T'au
We are a counter to both of these, simply because they are BS4+ factions, and we can provide plenty of hit penalties.
In addition, AM has lost what made the lists possible, which is the mobile element: Scion or BA complement. If they want to go the gunline route, they will have to do it the hard way, which is zero mobility.
T'au did also lose the drone alpha strike.
Let's play it out guys, this is a new world.
I agree with you. However, I think that the Guard lists can now just field 3 Heavy weapon squads + 3 Leman Russ + 3 Manticore and the Scions can still deep strike turn 2 and do their thing.
I am also afraid that it will be the return of mass spamming AssBack + Gulliman.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some other questions/discussions?
- How much more important are Venomthropes now? You have to at least field 50% of your army on the field and can be shot for one round...
- Is the Mawlock still interesting, since he cannot do damage turn 1?
- How much better got the survival Hive Traits like Leviathan and Jormungandr?
I don't know about the survival Hive Traits, but Behemoth got basically reamed and shafted.
_Ness wrote: did i miss smthn or are we limited to 1 hive fleet armywide?
We are limited to one fleet per detachment. You can still have several detachments from different hive fleets in the army.
Also, if we bring Genestealer Cult units, they need to be in their own detachment. They might BTW be even more useful, because they are now one of few armies that has a really good chance of a first turn charge.
All other things aside, bivores still worth it? I'm happy enough with the faq and whilst meta shifting its certainly interesting. Looking forward to it,
I think the biovore nerf just killed them but they are still the cheapest brigade option so temptation is to keep them (I play events with no duplicate detachments allowed so double or triple battalion isnt an option)
34 points was criminally cheap for a 4-wound infantry model that threw Hail Mary mortal wounds, generated free models, and could be taken in units of 1. 50 points feels much more even, and this is from someone who took 6 of the things.
The competitiveness of the whole game has gone down considerably, we are not the only ones who lost something, nor we are the ones who were more hurt by this FAQ.
Sure, our top stuff is gone, but also the top stuff of all other factions is gone, so before losing ourselves in negativity, we should try to assess the new global situation.
We could easily come on top after all this, simply because our top builds were just the lid that covered a codex full of viable builds that were just a little bit worse. Flyrants and mega alpha strikes were not a clutch for us.
Compare that to what other factions have lost:
- Eldars? Point increases to all psy supports, point increases on DA, nerf to WoP, nerf to Quicken, nerf to fire and fade...
- Blood angels? RIP
. Poxwalker farms? RIP
- Tzangor/bloodletter bombs? RIP
- Scion plasma? RIP
- Dark talon spam? RIP
- Mortar spam? RIP
. PB crawler spam? RIP
- Oblits? Coming turn 2
- And so on and so on...
The game is so different now that saying "We suck because we lost our top builds" is meaningless.
The 2 only possible troubles come from long range castles, which right now are 2 factions:
- AM - T'au
We are a counter to both of these, simply because they are BS4+ factions, and we can provide plenty of hit penalties.
In addition, AM has lost what made the lists possible, which is the mobile element: Scion or BA complement. If they want to go the gunline route, they will have to do it the hard way, which is zero mobility.
T'au did also lose the drone alpha strike.
Let's play it out guys, this is a new world.
I agree with you. However, I think that the Guard lists can now just field 3 Heavy weapon squads + 3 Leman Russ + 3 Manticore and the Scions can still deep strike turn 2 and do their thing.
That would a terrible list though, it loses against many more lists than it wins against (loses against all hordes and all lists with hit penalties).
I am also afraid that it will be the return of mass spamming AssBack + Gulliman.
Nah, that list was killed by all the cost increaes on Gman, assault cannons and razorbacks. It's not going to be brough back by yet another cost increase. Even if it happens, that list is based on range 24", not exactly a turn 1 thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some other questions/discussions?
- How much more important are Venomthropes now? You have to at least field 50% of your army on the field and can be shot for one round...
- Is the Mawlock still interesting, since he cannot do damage turn 1?
- How much better got the survival Hive Traits like Leviathan and Jormungandr?
How is Jorm better. They rely on the DS to get close. With the cover your still marching across the board and getting shot up. Tau and AM definitely won out.
The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more. Plenty of CP to spend on double tapping our hive Guard. The time of the Exocrine is approaching! The time of the rupture cannon is nigh! The time for the psychic denying spore mine shot out of an invisible biovore 48" away has cometh!
Both assault and ranged units suffer from diminishing returns, so going full assault or full shooting is something that you should do only if your faction shoehorns you into that. (Khorne, Tau or stuff like that)
Tyranids can play the 50/50 and should do that for maximum efficency.
Astmeister wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Some other questions/discussions?
- How much more important are Venomthropes now? You have to at least field 50% of your army on the field and can be shot for one round...
- Is the Mawlock still interesting, since he cannot do damage turn 1?
- How much better got the survival Hive Traits like Leviathan and Jormungandr?
Venomthropes can be very usefull, especially when forgeworld is banned. Now shooting will be more vaueable again, because most armys have to put lot of powerlevel on the table.
Mawlock is still usefull too. If you cant come turn 1, deploy him turn 1 to get powerlevel/units on the table and burrow it for turn 2.
topaxygouroun i wrote: The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more. Plenty of CP to spend on double tapping our hive Guard. The time of the Exocrine is approaching! The time of the rupture cannon is nigh! The time for the psychic denying spore mine shot out of an invisible biovore 48" away has cometh!
Mad love for your bravado, but I'm 95% sure Spore mines don't inherit the HIVE FLEET trait of their creators. Doesn't work that way with Daemons, either.
topaxygouroun i wrote: The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more. Plenty of CP to spend on double tapping our hive Guard. The time of the Exocrine is approaching! The time of the rupture cannon is nigh! The time for the psychic denying spore mine shot out of an invisible biovore 48" away has cometh!
Mad love for your bravado, but I'm 95% sure Spore mines don't inherit the HIVE FLEET trait of their creators. Doesn't work that way with Daemons, either.
First item in the tyranids FAQ:
Page 101 – Biovores, Spore Mine Launcher
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph
to read:
‘Each time a spore mine launcher misses its target, set
up a single <Hive Fleet> Spore Mine model anywhere
within 6" of the target unit and more than 3" from any
enemy model (if the Spore Mine cannot be placed it
is destroyed).’
The <Hive Fleet> tag is whatever hive fleet the Biovore has.
How can heavily melee oriented armies deal with the changes to ruins and suchlike that make upper floors extremely easy to dominate? Can the Dimachaeron accomplish anything whatsoever? Right now my gaming circle is trying to work out how to make our Kraken member stand a chance. Main idea right now is an agreement that Objectives can only be placed at ground level.
topaxygouroun i wrote: The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more. Plenty of CP to spend on double tapping our hive Guard. The time of the Exocrine is approaching! The time of the rupture cannon is nigh! The time for the psychic denying spore mine shot out of an invisible biovore 48" away has cometh!
Mad love for your bravado, but I'm 95% sure Spore mines don't inherit the HIVE FLEET trait of their creators. Doesn't work that way with Daemons, either.
First item in the tyranids FAQ:
Page 101 – Biovores, Spore Mine Launcher
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph
to read:
‘Each time a spore mine launcher misses its target, set
up a single <Hive Fleet> Spore Mine model anywhere
within 6" of the target unit and more than 3" from any
enemy model (if the Spore Mine cannot be placed it
is destroyed).’
The <Hive Fleet> tag is whatever hive fleet the Biovore has.
I missed that. THat is a good buff. Get a save with Jorm, or advance quicker if they back away with Kraken. Hell depending on positions, with Leviathan they may even get a 6+++ FnP save.
Walkrants are still pants, for the same reason they were pants two days ago.
topaxygouroun i wrote: The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more.
Alpha Legion Berserkers will still bug you anywhere they please. Forward Operatives send its regards. If needed, Warp Time'd too.
Why do you say so? It's worth every point you invest in it. It ends up being a 170 point model (without abusing MRC), and has both the offensive and the defensive capabilities of that point cost. On top of that it has 2 powers and a synapse with extended range. It's well worth it's cost. Sure, the flyrant was better, but there's a reason why that got nerfed.
Walkrants are still pants, for the same reason they were pants two days ago.
topaxygouroun i wrote: The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more.
Alpha Legion Berserkers will still bug you anywhere they please. Forward Operatives send its regards. If needed, Warp Time'd too.
Why do you say so? It's worth every point you invest in it.
It ends up being a 170 point model (without abusing MRC), and has both the offensive and the defensive capabilities of that point cost. On top of that it has 2 powers and a synapse with extended range. It's well worth it's cost. Sure, the flyrant was better, but there's a reason why that got nerfed.
Because even with -1 to hit,12 wounds and a 4++ isn't enough to keep it alive the 3 turns it needs to meaningfully impact the game. Flyrants were good because when the DS you get 1 turn to deal will ALL of them.
Walkrants are still pants, for the same reason they were pants two days ago.
topaxygouroun i wrote: The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more.
Alpha Legion Berserkers will still bug you anywhere they please. Forward Operatives send its regards. If needed, Warp Time'd too.
Why do you say so? It's worth every point you invest in it.
It ends up being a 170 point model (without abusing MRC), and has both the offensive and the defensive capabilities of that point cost. On top of that it has 2 powers and a synapse with extended range. It's well worth it's cost. Sure, the flyrant was better, but there's a reason why that got nerfed.
Because even with -1 to hit,12 wounds and a 4++ isn't enough to keep it alive the 3 turns it needs to meaningfully impact the game. Flyrants were good because when the DS you get 1 turn to deal will ALL of them.
Also, you can't just deepstrike tons of flyrants anymore if the beta rule applies where 1/2 your power level also has to be on the table. Spore/Flyrant lists will die.
You can deploy 3 mawlocks on the table, and 3 flyrants in reserve. Come turn 1 the 3 mawlocks goes into reserves.
Turn 2 3 mawlocks and 3 flyrants plop down.
If at the end of any battle round you have no units on the table you loose acording to the vast majority of missions.
If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.
You can deploy 3 mawlocks on the table, and 3 flyrants in reserve. Come turn 1 the 3 mawlocks goes into reserves.
Turn 2 3 mawlocks and 3 flyrants plop down.
If at the end of any battle round you have no units on the table you loose acording to the vast majority of missions.
If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.
Well if you bring 6 models chances are you are not spending all your points, Keep your snarky sarcasmn away from the internet and imagine something to foll the void. Like malanthropes and hive guards.
I’ve been running a brigade pretty much full time for my list, and as is usual with Tyranid brigades it’s got a bunch of stuff that doesn’t synergize that well but gets taken anyway for the extra CP like lictors, mucolid spores, etc. I’m thinking of switching to 2 battalions now with the changes and putting the points in more useful stuff. The spores aren’t really as necessary with turn 1 deepstriking being neutered, the lictors never accomplished much of note, and while biovores are great they’re not quite as amazing for CP fodder anymore.
You can deploy 3 mawlocks on the table, and 3 flyrants in reserve. Come turn 1 the 3 mawlocks goes into reserves.
Turn 2 3 mawlocks and 3 flyrants plop down.
If at the end of any battle round you have no units on the table you loose acording to the vast majority of missions.
If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.
Well if you bring 6 models chances are you are not spending all your points, Keep your snarky sarcasmn away from the internet and imagine something to foll the void. Like malanthropes and hive guards.
It's not sarcasm. A lot of the "problem" nid lists that have been showing up over the last 2 months have been replications of 7th ed. All spores and flyrants. Often 7 flyrants in a list. If you do 1 for 1 flyrant to mawloc all the way up until the points limit is reached and try to do what you suggest it's not going to work anymore.
If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.
Spores won't help with that as their Living Bomb rule states they don't count when determining if a player has any models left on the table (among the other things).
One thing that was pointed out over in the GSC thread was that you can bump a unit to the next PL bracket by adding a model or two more than their starting bracket (example was Neophytes at 11 strong having the same PL as a 20 strong unit). Things like Hive Guard can take one extra model and nearly double their PL rating for the purposes of the strategic reserve rule despite only marginally increasing their point cost. Gaunts are another possible area for filler since in PL games the brood size is increased in increments of 10, so a 15-strong unit has the same PL rating as a 20-strong unit and so forth.
Also if I may say so, with the Smite nerf now official Zoanthropes and Malceptors gained a bit more value for Smite efficiency. Each cast by a larger Zoanthrope brood basically gets two Smites for only one increase to the casting difficulty while the +1 to cast on Malceptors makes them better suited to casting after other psykers (and if nothing else can use Psychic Overload as a "dispersed" Smite).
I think a unit of 4 Venomthropes might be worth it now. You get 9 PL for reserves, only pay 120 points and get a bubble to protect the stuff, which has to be on the table.
Also a Hive Crone might be more interesting now, since gun lines should show up more and you can reliably alpha strike with them.
Badablack wrote: 34 points was criminally cheap for a 4-wound infantry model that threw Hail Mary mortal wounds, generated free models, and could be taken in units of 1. 50 points feels much more even, and this is from someone who took 6 of the things.
Not that it matters but 36pts.
I found their wound characteristic almost entirely irrelevant, they never get targetted anyway.
The spore mines is definitely where the abuse is. At 50pts though you are essentially paying 14pts for spore mines for each biovore before you start. Why not just buy spore mines and deep strike them in? IF spore mines are that good it'd be the go to instead.
I was also running 6 and will be dropping to 3 to cover the points increase. Just feel it was an overhike, especially compared to things like dark reapers only getting a 7pt hike. Were biovores double the abusiveness of reapers?
The spore mines is definitely where the abuse is. At 50pts though you are essentially paying 14pts for spore mines for each biovore before you start. Why not just buy spore mines and deep strike them in? IF spore mines are that good it'd be the go to instead.
Spore Mines have the unfortunate aspect of needing to be 12'' away on the drop rather than 9'' with their version of deep strike, while the placement rules from a miss with a spore weapon are more generous. Plus, the Biovore is more cost efficient than buying a clutch of mines to start with since it only needs to fire 5 times to make back its value in mines (or the damage that quantity of mines could accomplish) while also contributing to boots on the ground and potentially minding a backfield objective.
I'm a bit in wait and see regarding the cost hike. On one hand it does seem slightly punitive but they are closer to Impaler Cannon Hive Guard in cost now which feels fairly right since both fire indirectly and both lean towards anti-armor. Not many armies have guns that do all of their damage via mortal wounds so it still fits in a fairly unique niche.
Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.
killerpenguin wrote: Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.
killerpenguin wrote: Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.
How can your hive guard shoot three times?
Something about using stratagems twice?
Not entirely sure, i couldnt find it in the new faq. I was hoping someone would enighten me.
killerpenguin wrote: Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.
Backed by Hormies and GS advancing with swarmlord and kraken strats turn 1 for charges. I think that could be set up for a good for turn 2 follow up with Mawlocs and Tyrants coming in.
Take Swarmlord. Also take 3 units of Spore Mines maxed at 9 each. Place those on board front line and use metabolic overdrive and Swarmload Hive Commander to slingshot in a wave of Mortal wounds. With Metabolic overdrive and Swarm commander you are looking at 18" (+3' explosion range) so you have a fairly effective way to get a lot of mortal wounds across the board very quickly. Might be a neat trick for a follow up or maybe initiate if you aren't deployed 24" away.
killerpenguin wrote: Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.
How can your hive guard shoot three times?
Something about using stratagems twice?
Not entirely sure, i couldnt find it in the new faq. I was hoping someone would enighten me.
Ok, I see how you got confused. The FAQ says that "before the game" is not an actual phase, so the once per phase limit on stratagems doesn't apply to stratagems that are used before the game. Most people already played this way, because it was a reasonable reading of the rules, and the FAQ was simply GW making it clear that they were aware of and agreed with it.
For us, this ruling mainly applies to the Jorgmundr stratagem that lets you spend CP to put non-troops infantry units in Trygon/Mawloc/Ravener tunnels (vs the normal infantry troops only in Trygon/Mawloc tunnels that all Hive Fleets can do). There is another FAQ ruling that makes it clear that more than one unit can use the same tunnel. The end result is we go from "the vast majority of Tyranid players agree that the most reasonable interpretation of the rules permits a Jorgmundr tunneling unit to bring in any number of infantry units with its tunnel, at the cost of 1 CP per unit", to "the rules directly say that a Jorgmundr tunneling unit can bring in any number of infantry units with its tunnel". It is nice to have this clarified, but it isn't going to impact much, because everybody already played assuming that they could do this.
This ruling does not apply to Hive Guard shooting, as the stratagem that lets them shoot twice is used at the end of the shooting phase. It could be used as a way to deliver Hive Guard - shock cannon Hive Guard getting dropped off by Raveners and then shooting twice is a viable tactic that helps avoid problems caused by the short range of the shock cannon - but there is no way to use it to get them to shoot three times.
pinecone77 wrote: Well...too soon to tell, but we might just be the best Beta strikers in the game. Jormangandr might become the new contender for "best" Hive Fleet. I already build around one Brigade, so most of this seems to not hit me. Did I see that "Brotherhood of Psychers" ignores the Smite nurf...I need to check how my beloved Zoeies are written up.....
Arkengate wrote: They are no longer brotherhood of the psykers, though.
This DS nerf is really, really big for us. No longer do I think melee will be nearly as effective as ranged.
Which is imho good, since we are playing a Sci-Fi game!
I think it is more science fantasy. And you rarely see Nids killing stuff with shooting in the background. Tyranids are beasts and the average Tyranid is not very intelligent so shooting is not as easy for them which is presented in the game by them having low BS mostly short range. And armor is also very much advanced in 40k. I find it very boring to play a game where both players just shoot at each other and rarely move. I also just like to see SM or IG try to shoot down all the Nids coming towards them.
Has anyone tried 60 genestealer List using the Kraken stratagem on 20 and a Swarmlord on the another 20 ? this should get them in to melee in turn 1. Maybe using dakkafexe to shoot the screens. I want to make melee work. and by doing this you would but a lot of pressure on you opponent. And in turn 2 you drop your 3 Flyrants charge. you would of cause need good shooting as well so hive guard exocrine and a tyranofex maybe.
I did not say that there should not be melee at all in 40k.
But as you say for yourself: the nids should be overrunning the enemy en masse. But it is not much fun when your whole army gets assaulted turn 1 and you cannot do anything against it.
Gunlines are a completely different story and I think they already tried to kill them by introducing Maelstrom. But that did not work yet.
Astmeister wrote: I did not say that there should not be melee at all in 40k.
But as you say for yourself: the nids should be overrunning the enemy en masse. But it is not much fun when your whole army gets assaulted turn 1 and you cannot do anything against it.
Gunlines are a completely different story and I think they already tried to kill them by introducing Maelstrom. But that did not work yet.
funny. My IG were able to do something with T1 assaults. There's this little(and seemingly little known) concept called "screen".
I'm glad to see the Bugs doing well. 
But too many Supreme commands full of Tyrants....though one list had a 
