The ALEPH minis are very good indeed. The ALEPH starter plus those ALEPH in the Beyond box makes for a nice looking force. The starter should be available in January.
The only model I don’t really like is the Ratnik, and I’m usually a huge fan of the S5 heavy infantry models. I much prefer the blackjack to it, and I’m not even a massive fan of that!
Aristeia is a great creative outlet for them. Lots of interesting designs that let them explore areas of their settings that the minis game never would even if they do throw in a lot of fan service with not-Hellboy and not-Ateam.
Aristeia right now is the Healthy & fresh game by CB. Is a game easy to understand, easy to play difficult to master, with their own tournaments, with just a few extra layer of expansions and that's it.
Unlike INFINITY that has become a behemoth of complexity with gazillions of rules, a range of miniatures with old/new/exclusive/discontinued/soon to be discontinued/bootleg/attractive but unsafe spectre of models, a narrative confusing plot with fanbase interference and a competitive scene that pushes the game to nightmarish levels of meta.
I've been ejoying INFINITY for more than a decade now. It was lovely and manageable in 2007, it became the best-loooking sic fi range of miniatures in 2012.
Nowadays I go to a tournament and it takes 15 minutes for me to understand what's going on, why am I rolling dice and how can I get out of here.
-"Die as a hero or live enough to see yourself become a villain."
I guess that these games have their moment for everyone. Aristeia is refreshingly simple and it doesn't require from me to assemble a table for 20 minutes before playing.
I'm getting old also.
BobbaFett wrote:Aristeia right now is the Healthy & fresh game by CB. Is a game easy to understand, easy to play difficult to master, with their own tournaments, with just a few extra layer of expansions and that's it.
Unlike INFINITY that has become a behemoth of complexity with gazillions of rules, a range of miniatures with old/new/exclusive/discontinued/soon to be discontinued/bootleg/attractive but unsafe spectre of models, a narrative confusing plot with fanbase interference and a competitive scene that pushes the game to nightmarish levels of meta.
I've been ejoying INFINITY for more than a decade now. It was lovely and manageable in 2007, it became the best-loooking sic fi range of miniatures in 2012.
Nowadays I go to a tournament and it takes 15 minutes for me to understand what's going on, why am I rolling dice and how can I get out of here.
-"Die as a hero or live enough to see yourself become a villain."
I guess that these games have their moment for everyone. Aristeia is refreshingly simple and it doesn't require from me to assemble a table for 20 minutes before playing.
I'm getting old also.
Agreed. Everyone that I get to play one of the Operation boxes loves the game but a normal game takes about 3 hours to play (as you're learning) and that turns a lot of people off as if you don't play a lot you never really move past that 3 hour mark.
Absolutionis wrote:Infinity could heavily benefit from official stat cards to ease the rules bloat.
Lots of things should be done to speed up the game. Shrink the play area from 4 feet to 3. Max of 10 orders regardless of the number of troops (and you just loose orders as you loose point percentages), get rid of all the stuff that's almost the same and condense it to one rule.
Absolutionis wrote: Infinity could heavily benefit from official stat cards to ease the rules bloat.
What would that accomplish? They have Infinity Army which is available to everyone.
If you mean write some of the special rules and abilities more concisely and clearly. yeah, they could definitely do that.
Or maybe have army actually print out the rules for all the skill and equipment instead of having to hope though the wiki or rule book to find everything while playing. Stats and weapons aren't enough. Even just listing what freaking ammo does would be a big help. Cards would force CB to keep things concise as they wouldn't have an unlimited canvas.
Cards would need printing in multiple languages. Too much $$$, or €€€ as the case may be.
Monkeysloth wrote: Everyone that I get to play one of the Operation boxes loves the game but a normal game takes about 3 hours to play (as you're learning) and that turns a lot of people off as if you don't play a lot you never really move past that 3 hour mark.
It's now a lifestyle game. I have a few friends who no longer play because of this.
Stream-line, cull, prune w/e the weapons and special skills, and the hacking. This is where most of the bloat lies.
Pre-order for 3rd Offensive ends 5 November. Sometime in December we get the book? It will have new rules. It may even address the whole Play By Intent *issue*. When will the rules PDF be available?
Absolutionis wrote: Infinity could heavily benefit from official stat cards to ease the rules bloat.
What would that accomplish? They have Infinity Army which is available to everyone.
If you mean write some of the special rules and abilities more concisely and clearly. yeah, they could definitely do that.
Or maybe have army actually print out the rules for all the skill and equipment instead of having to hope though the wiki or rule book to find everything while playing. Stats and weapons aren't enough. Even just listing what freaking ammo does would be a big help. Cards would force CB to keep things concise as they wouldn't have an unlimited canvas.
Ahh I see. I misunderstood you.
It would be interesting to add that as an option for the print out, though in the case of some rules it would print out several pages.
I do agree they could do with some rule streamlining. Like, the Sixth Sense rule has ZERO mention of how it interacts with Stealth. Instead, Stealth is the rule that says it doesn't work vs Sixth Sense. Meaning that if you have a Stealth model sneaking up on a Sixth Sense dude, it is on the Stealth model to remember that its rule doesn't work. Instead, Sixth Sense should have the line that says that it nullifies Stealth.
The actual rules of the game are much simpler since N3.
2nd edition rules were a nightmare of translation errors and inconsistent formatting.
Infinity is in a good place now rules wise. Yes there are a lot of rules, but 50% of those rules don't come up in any one given game. Just bring a tablet & check the wiki. They do a good job keeping it up to date.
I think you're referring moreso to the nightmare that is the ITS scenarios. I'm glad they have a structure for the die-hard tournament crowd. The game needs that.
But I agree it is too much to absorb for the more casual player. Pick a 3rd party mission system like YAMS or D20 and keep it simple.
Red Harvest wrote:Cards would need printing in multiple languages. Too much $$$, or €€€ as the case may be.
Monkeysloth wrote: Everyone that I get to play one of the Operation boxes loves the game but a normal game takes about 3 hours to play (as you're learning) and that turns a lot of people off as if you don't play a lot you never really move past that 3 hour mark.
It's now a lifestyle game. I have a few friends who no longer play because of this.
Stream-line, cull, prune w/e the weapons and special skills, and the hacking. This is where most of the bloat lies.
Pre-order for 3rd Offensive ends 5 November. Sometime in December we get the book? It will have new rules. It may even address the whole Play By Intent *issue*. When will the rules PDF be available?
Ya, and that's a big reason I don't do anything really with the game anymore. Unless Infinity is all I do with my free time I can't get to the point to play it as it's intended.
As for rules PDF don't they generally come out a week after general release?
Grey Templar wrote:
Ahh I see. I misunderstood you.
It would be interesting to add that as an option for the print out, though in the case of some rules it would print out several pages.
I do agree they could do with some rule streamlining. Like, the Sixth Sense rule has ZERO mention of how it interacts with Stealth. Instead, Stealth is the rule that says it doesn't work vs Sixth Sense. Meaning that if you have a Stealth model sneaking up on a Sixth Sense dude, it is on the Stealth model to remember that its rule doesn't work. Instead, Sixth Sense should have the line that says that it nullifies Stealth.
Ya, of course it should be optional as not everyone needs that. Ideally you'd have army as it is now and then "card mode" that does a unit card that all that unit's rules (skills and equipment even range bands) should fit on (double sided) but I don't know how doable that is without complete rewrites of things like stealth and, Martial Arts and so on. Hacking could be it's own card maybe just because there's so many options.
Monkeysloth wrote: Ya, and that's a big reason I don't do anything really with the game anymore. Unless Infinity is all I do with my free time I can't get to the point to play it as it's intended.
As for rules PDF don't they generally come out a week after general release?
Yeah, my group has gone the same way. As bloat increased are small hiatuses from it started growing larger and larger. It eventually became small clusters of increased play around releases followed by a steep drop off. And as are time with the game grew shorter and shorter people became less enthused every time we started playing it again because starting up always meant 2-4 hour long games full of almost constant look up (I mean, the wiki makes it easier, but there are games I haven't played in nearly a decade that I can get in to and play quicker than I ever could with Infinity).
I think "lifestyle game" is a pretty apt description. It is a game that basically demands your undivided attention these days unless you're just in it for the models.
It has gotten to the point where I've started looking for alternatives so my group can use our Infinity collections again, because it feels more and more like Infinity just isn't the game for us. I really miss the days of it being a small squad tactics game, but unless N4 goes back to the basics again, it feels like that ship has sailed and they should probably just bite the bullet and fully move in to making it the platoon-scale skirmish game it has been turning in to over the past decade.
a card-option in Army isn't very realistic and I don't see how it's any better than the armylist printout that Army already does, some of the individual rules would be multiple cards on both sides and forcing it into a card format would be almost a complete rewrite of the app AND take up more paper. An option to include a rules summary would be welcome though, and I mean literally a 1-line summary of reminder text for the rule.
The actual rules are fine as-is, like Bladerunner said, they've been cleaned up a lot for this edition compared to N1/N2 and I doubt I'd be as interested in the game if CB "streamlined" it to the level some people are asking for, there's already plenty of shallow skirmish games on the market. I LIKE that this game is complex enough to make a fight between 2 dozen soldiers as complex as other games using hundreds of figures. That said, they sure could do with a little more redundancy. No reason that the wiki shouldn't mention stealth/sixth sense interaction under both listings, for instance. Also there's a bunch of rules buried within other rules like Martial Arts granting Stealth and V:Courage. An option in Army to print out any granted-in sub-rules and a little more repeated redundancy in the wiki would go a LONG way to solving these issues.
As for scenarios, there's an app called Comlog that has all the ITS scenarios and, unlike the actual ITS PDF, it lists all the relevant rules for the scenario at the bottom of each scenario like Civ-Evac and Xenotech where it applies. For hacking you've got both a summary on the armylist printout from Army and also there's the excellent Captian Spud's hacking Helper.
Just because the rules are better compared to N2 doesn't mean they're clean. Infinity has always had the reputation of having a high barrier to entry with a *lot* of frontloaded rules you have to memorize.
Having a simple set of cards wouldn't *replace* the Army Builder. It'd supplement it. Language/translation is also not an excuse when mission cards exist; those things become obsolete quicker than profiles.
A card explaining, in detail, the fire modes of a MULTI Rifle would be nice for both players to have on-hand at all times without flipping through a bunch of sheets of paper. You could have multiples of the same card just near/under a model's card to get a quick at-a-glance understanding of what the more uncommon weapons do. I'm sure everyone has memorized the range bands of a Combi Rifle by now, but some players may need reminders on what Plasma Rifles or T1 Rifles do especially for those that don't play specific factions.
Having troop profiles with reminder text, akin to MtG cards, would also be great. It could be shortened significantly to remain as reminder text. That way, it'll be easier for new players to learn the difference between the different Camo types. It'd be nice to have a reminder card for all the Hacking Programs and Martial Arts types just for reference for all players. It'd be nice to have a reminder on exactly how Jammers, E-Marats, CrazyKoalas, and Sepsitors work without having to reference the rulebook every time.
Kalamadea wrote: a card-option in Army isn't very realistic and I don't see how it's any better than the armylist printout that Army already does, some of the individual rules would be multiple cards on both sides and forcing it into a card format would be almost a complete rewrite of the app AND take up more paper. An option to include a rules summary would be welcome though, and I mean literally a 1-line summary of reminder text for the rule.
The actual rules are fine as-is, like Bladerunner said, they've been cleaned up a lot for this edition compared to N1/N2 and I doubt I'd be as interested in the game if CB "streamlined" it to the level some people are asking for, there's already plenty of shallow skirmish games on the market. I LIKE that this game is complex enough to make a fight between 2 dozen soldiers as complex as other games using hundreds of figures. That said, they sure could do with a little more redundancy. No reason that the wiki shouldn't mention stealth/sixth sense interaction under both listings, for instance. Also there's a bunch of rules buried within other rules like Martial Arts granting Stealth and V:Courage. An option in Army to print out any granted-in sub-rules and a little more repeated redundancy in the wiki would go a LONG way to solving these issues.
As for scenarios, there's an app called Comlog that has all the ITS scenarios and, unlike the actual ITS PDF, it lists all the relevant rules for the scenario at the bottom of each scenario like Civ-Evac and Xenotech where it applies. For hacking you've got both a summary on the armylist printout from Army and also there's the excellent Captian Spud's hacking Helper.
The card option would have been nice in the past. I know other games do it. The cards in Infinity boosters are a waste of space.
However, we’re beyond that now. There is a free army builder app that will build a roster for you. The community has done a great job to simplify the bloat with other tools available.
With the limited insertion rules and ongoing efforts to deflate HI point costs, it seems pretty clear CB is trying to get more people playing 10 order lists. They have also introduced many new specialist profiles and new scenarios in the last 2-3 years to get the game away from the excessive button pushing.
It’s a tough balancing act between simple annihilation missions and stupid button pushing tasks.
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Absolutionis wrote: Just because the rules are better compared to N2 doesn't mean they're clean. Infinity has always had the reputation of having a high barrier to entry with a *lot* of frontloaded rules you have to memorize.
Having a simple set of cards wouldn't *replace* the Army Builder. It'd supplement it. Language/translation is also not an excuse when mission cards exist; those things become obsolete quicker than profiles.
A card explaining, in detail, the fire modes of a MULTI Rifle would be nice for both players to have on-hand at all times without flipping through a bunch of sheets of paper. You could have multiples of the same card just near/under a model's card to get a quick at-a-glance understanding of what the more uncommon weapons do. I'm sure everyone has memorized the range bands of a Combi Rifle by now, but some players may need reminders on what Plasma Rifles or T1 Rifles do especially for those that don't play specific factions.
Having troop profiles with reminder text, akin to MtG cards, would also be great. It could be shortened significantly to remain as reminder text. That way, it'll be easier for new players to learn the difference between the different Camo types. It'd be nice to have a reminder card for all the Hacking Programs and Martial Arts types just for reference for all players. It'd be nice to have a reminder on exactly how Jammers, E-Marats, CrazyKoalas, and Sepsitors work without having to reference the rulebook every time.
The wiki does this just fine. Just use your phone/tablet.
Use tabs?
What am I missing here? Having all that stuff on cards on the table will clutter up an already complicated game. Lord knows there are already too many tokens in infinity.
Should also say anytime I’m building a list with exotic stuff like jammers & crazy koalas, I make sure I reread those rules first.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: The actual rules of the game are much simpler since N3.
2nd edition rules were a nightmare of translation errors and inconsistent formatting.
Infinity is in a good place now rules wise. Yes there are a lot of rules, but 50% of those rules don't come up in any one given game. Just bring a tablet & check the wiki. They do a good job keeping it up to date.
I think you're referring moreso to the nightmare that is the ITS scenarios. I'm glad they have a structure for the die-hard tournament crowd. The game needs that.
But I agree it is too much to absorb for the more casual player. Pick a 3rd party mission system like YAMS or D20 and keep it simple.
I agree. I find Infinity to be fairly streamlined (for what it is, which is a complex game). I've been playing for about 10 years and teaching the game for most of that, and I think it really is a game for a certain kind of player. Not for everyone. But when people talk about it being bloated, and the things they think should be removed, what they suggest often doesn't make any sense to me. The game has a HUGE amount of rules, but you don't actually need to know most of that in order to play. What you need to know is the basics, and you need to have a handle on the army you brought. Everything else can be referenced extremely easily using army and the wiki. In most cases looking something up doesn't take more than a minute or three, and can often be done in anticipation of the question. I know that some people don't like looking anything up at all and find having to pause the game for even a moment frustrating, but thats never bothered me at all, and I always look at it as both a way to sharpen my knowledge of the game and as a chance to be as fair as possible. And even if I end up pausing the game to reference a rule 5 or 10 times it rarely makes the game last more than 15 more minutes. Thats never been a big deal in any of the hundreds of games I've played.
But I understand thats not what everyone wants out of a game. And unfortunately as Infinity has grown more popular its attracted more people who want the game to be something it isn't, and get frustrated when thats not the case (as opposed to the people who understand what the game is and are also frustrated by it, I guess). Reference Cards are also a suggestion that never makes sense to me, considering we already have army, the ability to print out detailed sheets with all unit info, weapon qualities, hacking programs and other information. And again, everything is quickly referencable via the wiki. I always assume wanting reference cards must be a holdover from players who are used to games that have them and don't really understand that Infinity doesn't require them? Or simply have a strong preference for that kind of format even though it doesn't fit this game well? Nothing wrong with that, I guess. But I always wonder if people would be happier embracing what Infinity is (faults and all) instead of wanting it to be something else.
I also agree that ITS is... kind of nuts. I appreciate it as a source of ongoing content and narrative, but its become a headache to keep up with. Over the last year and a half I went from being a Warcor who played 3-4 ITS games weekly to a hermit who gets to play maybe once a month, mostly with people who don't have any interest in ITS. As a result I really struggle to keep up with the changes each season, and new missions often seem nonsensical too me at first. I think if I was still playing as much as I used to I'd be more on top of everything, but now that I'm a more casual player the whole thing seems like more trouble than its worth. More and more often I want to just play simple missions without tons of added extras.
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Absolutionis wrote: Just because the rules are better compared to N2 doesn't mean they're clean. Infinity has always had the reputation of having a high barrier to entry with a *lot* of frontloaded rules you have to memorize.
Having a simple set of cards wouldn't *replace* the Army Builder. It'd supplement it. Language/translation is also not an excuse when mission cards exist; those things become obsolete quicker than profiles.
A card explaining, in detail, the fire modes of a MULTI Rifle would be nice for both players to have on-hand at all times without flipping through a bunch of sheets of paper. You could have multiples of the same card just near/under a model's card to get a quick at-a-glance understanding of what the more uncommon weapons do. I'm sure everyone has memorized the range bands of a Combi Rifle by now, but some players may need reminders on what Plasma Rifles or T1 Rifles do especially for those that don't play specific factions.
Having troop profiles with reminder text, akin to MtG cards, would also be great. It could be shortened significantly to remain as reminder text. That way, it'll be easier for new players to learn the difference between the different Camo types. It'd be nice to have a reminder card for all the Hacking Programs and Martial Arts types just for reference for all players. It'd be nice to have a reminder on exactly how Jammers, E-Marats, CrazyKoalas, and Sepsitors work without having to reference the rulebook every time.
I feel like all of this already exists. Its called Army and the Infinity Wiki. Its very simple to use and much easier than having to carry around a bunch of cards. I mean, if this is just your personal preference, thats fine. But its hard for me to imagine most people would prefer having a bunch of cards over an easy to use app on their phone/tablet/laptop and detailed army list printouts which include much of the info you're talking about anyway.
The wiki does this just fine. Just use your phone/tablet.
Use tabs?
What am I missing here? Having all that stuff on cards on the table will clutter up an already complicated game. Lord knows there are already too many tokens in infinity.
You're "missing" that some people like having things physical. Not everywhere has WiFi access, so you're now suggesting people use their data plans for it. There's also the simple factor of not everyone wants to take a tablet with them to game--I rarely take mine with me, instead opting to print things or getting stuff physically.
Additionally, you know those cards that come in the front of the blister for Infinity models? How about the cards that came with the GenCon Dart? It's not like they can't do this.
Should also say anytime I’m building a list with exotic stuff like jammers & crazy koalas, I make sure I reread those rules first.
Okay...? Yes. People likely read the rules for something when building lists. That's a thing they'll do.
Ronin_eX wrote: I think "lifestyle game" is a pretty apt description. It is a game that basically demands your undivided attention these days unless you're just in it for the models.
Yeah.... no. I'm what most would call a super casual gamer. After work, family and other RL commitments I manage maybe one trip to the local gaming club a month (if I make two it feels like my birthday) and manage to paint maybe a couple dozen miniatures a year, and I still play more systems then Infinity.
If someone is complaining Infinity is taking up all their hobby time it sounds like someone needs to take a step back and give their time management skills a severe cleaning.
Infinity has the ability to suck up all your time if you want it. It's a great game in that respect. You can go as deep or as casual as it suits, but it does not demand that commitment.
I'm not really asking for a rewrite at all, though some are, just a few areas that are confusing to be cleared up like ZoC, stealth, alert and that nonsense. Let the game stay what it is for what people want that. Having easier access to info is what I want. It takes hours to play the game if you don't have everything memorized and sorting though 50 tabs on a small tablet is not a time saver. As is the game takes too much time to play 3-4 hours with most of that rules discussions. If I could play more then once every 6 weeks it would become easier to play but my main hobby time isn't wargames so I only get to play with me and the other friend that do like miniature games can get togethor without the others that don't like them.
For the card version I said ideally for a reason. It's what I'd like but that doesn't mean it's what I'll ever get. Though I wouldn't complain if CB had a version of the rules that allowed you to play the Operation X level of complexity -- wouldn't care if half the units were the same.
Monkeysloth wrote: I wouldn't complain if CB had a version of the rules that allowed you to play the Operation X level of complexity -- wouldn't care if half the units were the same.
I guess you could simply choose a dozen abilities that you feel were core to Infinity , and then just play units as having nothing but their stats, their abilities (which ever ones they have that are on that list of a dozen) and a simplified weapon loadout (all rifles are combi rifles, all template weapons are Chain rifles, all Shotguns are Boarding Shotguns, SWC weapons are limited to Missile Launcher, MSR and HMG, all mines are AP Mines, all grenades are grenades, etc)
That would pretty much do it. It would be a MUCH simpler game,and likely a LOT of profiles would be very over or under costed. But in a lot of ways it would be like a simple version of first edition. HI would get by on having higher armor, higher BS and 2 wounds. Skirmishers would rely on having camo, mines and infiltration. Warbands would be all about high CC stats. Theres certainly an appeal to that. But also, I played a LOT of Icestorm demos when I was a Warcor. Like 50 or so of them. That kind of limited selection can be fun and challenging, but it also gets old after awhile.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An escalation league that starts at Icestorm style rules and slowly grows to include more and more would be neat. For example, Season 1 could be basic stuff, Season 2 could be camo, smoke and MSV, season 3 could be hacking, remotes and TAGs, season 4 could be fireteams.
An escalation league that starts at Icestorm style rules and slowly grows to include more and more would be neat. For example, Season 1 could be basic stuff, Season 2 could be camo, smoke and MSV, season 3 could be hacking, remotes and TAGs, season 4 could be fireteams.
An escalation league that starts at Icestorm style rules and slowly grows to include more and more would be neat. For example, Season 1 could be basic stuff, Season 2 could be camo, smoke and MSV, season 3 could be hacking, remotes and TAGs, season 4 could be fireteams.
That actually would be fun
I think it would also be a good tool for teaching the game. CB used to recommend this, slowly easing players in by introducing a few rules at a time. But too many people try to teach everything at once,a nd too many players want to use every toy they have. The operation boxes are a good start for this, but they drop you off into the deep end instead of easing you in.
Ronin_eX wrote: ...but unless N4 goes back to the basics again...
(Spits drink)
N4?!
Is there an official/unofficial rumour about N4?!
I think this game really needs such thing.
None at all and I doubt they will for several years since they finally seamed to find their groove after a really slow roll out reworking n2 content into n3.
N2 was just N1 with the FAQs added into the main rulebook, I was actually kinda miffed when I first bought the revised/2nd Ed rulebook because so little had changed in it and at the time the books were something like $60+ because there was no real US distribution or MSRP for the game and the US economy was awful so exchange rate sucked. N3 was a bigger change, but still not all that different. I'd be totally OK with a N4 that was basically just a revised N3 in the same was as N1->N2, but there is no rumors for it being on the horizon.
As for ITS, all the missions are already written to be playable at 200 points, they even specifically scale some of them as Low Tier/Mid Tier/High Tier, which literally just means 200/300/400 points. 300 became popular based on the community and CB makes 300 point armypacks because that is the size of game that is most popular, but we've done quite a few 200 point tournaments that were very fun
Yeah, sorry to cause alarm, I was just saying that I hope the next edition (when it comes in however many more years) decides to pare things way down and possibly rework to either be a simpler game with an assumption at larger game sizes, or goes back to being the small squad skirmish game it used to be.
Just so long as it drops the needless bloat and streamlines the game in to something a bit more user friendly.
Because if they don't stem the bloat and learn a bit of self-control then we're just going to keep reaching the same place we did back in 2nd Edition where the game either needs to forcibly reboot or get crushed under its own weight.
Ronin_eX wrote: Yeah, sorry to cause alarm, I was just saying that I hope the next edition (when it comes in however many more years) decides to pare things way down and possibly rework to either be a simpler game with an assumption at larger game sizes, or goes back to being the small squad skirmish game it used to be.
Just so long as it drops the needless bloat and streamlines the game in to something a bit more user friendly.
Because if they don't stem the bloat and learn a bit of self-control then we're just going to keep reaching the same place we did back in 2nd Edition where the game either needs to forcibly reboot or get crushed under its own weight.
Coming from 40k, Infinity is a breath of fresh air. I would not want to pair the complexity or rules depth down much. Stream line wording to make it easier to understand? Definitely. Make a better index? For sure. Go full 8th edition? No, no thank you.
Kalamadea wrote: As for ITS, all the missions are already written to be playable at 200 points, they even specifically scale some of them as Low Tier/Mid Tier/High Tier, which literally just means 200/300/400 points. 300 became popular based on the community and CB makes 300 point armypacks because that is the size of game that is most popular, but we've done quite a few 200 point tournaments that were very fun
Also, they've declared many times that since Human Sphere N2 they begun to develop the math of the game around 300 size game. So every meaningful unit has a cost around 30 points so 10 men are 300 pts.
Anyway... here in this thread you, the dakka forum, have mentioned two different separate interesting subjects: a hypothetical N4 and stat cards. Those statements kept my gears grinding today.
IMHO Stats Cards, today, for INFINITY N3 with the existing Army6 app... I would find them NOT necessary.
WARNING ///// HUGE HYPOTHETICAL POST ///// WARNING
However, for an hypothetical fourth edition of this game. I would definitely sign into it.
In my opinion, Infinity requires so much from the player in terms of memory. We are forced to play being aware of so much stuff. Look at other game; I've been playing X-Wing lately, super casual games, never been in a tournament BUT when you look at the display, the players have everything in cards in front of them. Because those cards have every single rule written in front of them they do not have to fething REMEMBER every single thing their miniatures do.
So, the problem with INFINITY nowadays is actually not only about rules, it's about product design.
Cards: weapon cards, unit cards, equipment cards, special skills cards are a constant help for the player, who can interact with them. You can flip them, tap them discard them, put tokens over them.
Imagine the potential of a hypothetical N4 with 3x3 boards and cards being used as in X-Wing. Dice with symbols, cards and less things to remember.
I think that system can be translated into a new format, keeping the spirit, getting rid of the superfluous stuff (TONS of it), and still be INFINITY. Maybe not so fluff acurate, but at least getting rid of the cube. Have you realised that since N1 every single unit profile has included the "Cube" and the situations where that label has been meaningful have happened like almost never?
I love the miniatures. I've had enough N3 already. Gimme a easy balanced game to keep on playing with these Morats you have nowadays and I'll be a happy old man.
I've been really happy with N3. It's a solid system that's fairly streamlined (it could do without nested special rules). It's not a very good system for physical media though. The rules are very reference table driven, which means they're a nightmare to lookup manually, but pretty easily compile down into a pretty digestible size on a per model basis.
I don't think cards really work for it, simply because there are so many options when you get down to the different equipment sets. I think it would just feel like an overwhelming number of cards, not to mention layout issues with stuff like hackers and the like.
Army is pretty good overall, but would work a lot better in app form without an online connection. If you've got a tablet, MayaNet is probably the single most accessible way to turn your list into a simple set of options. The game really clicked for me when I started using it as its not only a great tool, but one that showed me how the game was organized so I could better understand Army and even the rulebook.
I will say, the biggest barrier wall is just getting started. I think playing solely with the premade 300 point stuff and Operation+Beyond armies is a great way to learn the game. Really, its just a game that's easier to learn on the table, and all the army building stuff is far easier to understand once you've played. If you just sit down and play with what you've got, its easier to see how all the complexity narrows down to what you actually put on the table. I found it to be a game that is much easier to learn once you've seen how it works.
I too much prefer 3'x3' boards. Just lower all weapon range bands so snipers are balanced. The past few times I have played I've gone with the smaller board but haven't bothered shrinking ranges and it's not the most fun unless you like never having to move anything to hit anything.
I think 3x3 might get a little cramped and make it hard to find places to hide. I do think its a good idea to shrink the board a bit when you play smaller point games though. At 6 man starter box size you really notice how little ARO action happens if you play with the same kind of setup you would for a 300 point game.
The game you guys are describing already exists: MERCS 2.0
Give it a try, the rules PDF and stat cards are now free online (in the link I just gave) and the faction boxes include everything all 10 models for the faction for $40 You can find them cheaper online, or get the MERCS: Recon boardgame which is pretty seriously underrated and fun in it's own right. Or Mantic's Deadzone is also a great Infinity-lite type game
Just please don't try to turn Infinity into MERCS or X-Wing or Deadzone. I own those too and they are fine games, but they are decidedly NOT Infinity. I'd be all for an alternate game that was like you describe much like Battletech and Alpha Strike, but if Infinity went down to X-Wing levels of complexity I'd lose interest very quickly.
There is that big black N for next November. Just saying.
Also, if anyone hasn't I do recommend the ast Mayacast episide where they talk about opportunities, not to simplify the game, but to streamline the rules and their delivery, Well worth a listen, and I agreed with all the suggestions.
Give it a try, the rules PDF and stat cards are now free online (in the link I just gave) and the faction boxes include everything all 10 models for the faction for $40 You can find them cheaper online, or get the MERCS: Recon boardgame which is pretty seriously underrated and fun in it's own right. Or Mantic's Deadzone is also a great Infinity-lite type game
Just please don't try to turn Infinity into MERCS or X-Wing or Deadzone. I own those too and they are fine games, but they are decidedly NOT Infinity. I'd be all for an alternate game that was like you describe much like Battletech and Alpha Strike, but if Infinity went down to X-Wing levels of complexity I'd lose interest very quickly.
X-Wing is the last thing Infinity should become. I love X-Wing but I loathe how bloated and messy that system is, especially with desirable cards locked behind the purchase of miniatures (for factions you may or may not even play).
LunarSol wrote: I've been really happy with N3. It's a solid system that's fairly streamlined (it could do without nested special rules). It's not a very good system for physical media though. The rules are very reference table driven, which means they're a nightmare to lookup manually, but pretty easily compile down into a pretty digestible size on a per model basis.
I don't think cards really work for it, simply because there are so many options when you get down to the different equipment sets. I think it would just feel like an overwhelming number of cards, not to mention layout issues with stuff like hackers and the like.
I disagree. Look at the stuff GW's done for "warscroll cards" or "datacards".
If they can manage to fit the rules for an entire unit and its weapons on bit that's a bit larger than an index card(the most recent Nighthaunt/Stormcast iteration of the warscroll cards)? Infinity can do it easily as well.
.Mikes. wrote: There is that big black N for next November. Just saying.
Also, if anyone hasn't I do recommend the ast Mayacast episide where they talk about opportunities, not to simplify the game, but to streamline the rules and their delivery, Well worth a listen, and I agreed with all the suggestions.
Yeah, in general, it isn't the core rules that are the issue, but the extraneous stuff added by excessive leveled rules, nested rules, slightly altered weapon profiles, and otherwise bloated bits.
Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? Do we need a host of close combat skills sitting outside the MA heading that do similar things? Why Marksman and Fatality? Why do hacking devices bloat up with so many useless programs when only a handful are used? Why does MA contain Stealth and Courage? Why does Berzerk contain Assault? Why does Veteran contain... *he just trails off*
Then we have unit profiles! So many units with profiles that will never see table play due to bad internal balancing. So many older vanilla profiles that basically read like an exhaustive equipment list instead of just having a few representative profiles. This has led to a lot of overlap with newer units and basically started forcing CB in to rotating active lists as if they were Magic the bloody Gathering.
Again, the core is solid (I think the order pool system could use another pass, but I digress) but then they have just added so much cruft over time that it becomes harder and harder to engage with the game. The more they add, the more weird edge cases and internal balance problems we get. It also creates a weird sort of improvement creep and unit churn where new profiles are either dead on arrival or the new meta depending on whether the rules they introduce are gold or chaff. The same goes for sectorials, since there are only so many sub-factions you can have in an army before they start drastically overlapping.
Infinity could do with a lot less bloat in the special rules and equipment department. It is this solid core with a lot of calcified layers of crunch added to it over its long life and the game could use some paring down back to the basics.
Some new rules and additions are great, but some times it feels like they're either splitting hairs or making new mechanics for their own sake where an old mechanic would have done just fine. It also feels like too many new units are created just to be poster-children for special rules that get used once or twice and then never heard from again. The game needs a second pass with a look toward paring down special rules and using what it has at its core more effectively. Ideally, a hypothetical new edition would be able to fit ALL of the rules in the core book, including stuff like sectorial rules like linking.
I think moving toward the living format was a good choice on their part, but to me there is little difference between having to flip through my book a dozen times each game or having to go to the wiki a dozen times. Infinity is just becoming too expansive for its own good and CB's only response seems to be mothballing armies or painfully splitting things off, neither of which seems like it will work out well in the long term (especially not when it seems like they are almost doing it on a whim). I sincerely hope they find a better way forward in the future and I think the first step is taking an honest look at all the built-up rules artifacts Infinity has gathered and taking a knife to the bits that don't improve the game. I don't want them to pare down until it's Tic-Tac-Toe, but I also don't think the special rules section needs to make War and Peace look dainty in comparison.
.Mikes. wrote: There is that big black N for next November. Just saying.
Also, if anyone hasn't I do recommend the ast Mayacast episide where they talk about opportunities, not to simplify the game, but to streamline the rules and their delivery, Well worth a listen, and I agreed with all the suggestions.
Yeah, in general, it isn't the core rules that are the issue, but the extraneous stuff added by excessive leveled rules, nested rules, slightly altered weapon profiles, and otherwise bloated bits.
Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? ........
You basically listed everything that was talked about int he cast
Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? Do we need a host of close combat skills sitting outside the MA heading that do similar things? Why Marksman and Fatality? Why do hacking devices bloat up with so many useless programs when only a handful are used? Why does MA contain Stealth and Courage? Why does Berzerk contain Assault? Why does Veteran contain... *he just trails off*
.
Alternatively, what is having any of this costing you? You're not required to remember all of this stuff. Its extremely easy to look up. And reducing the game's rules by even 50% won't mean that you never have to look things up. It will just mean that theres way less options and variety.
Infinity has always been a complex and granular game. Since day 1. It sounds like what we really need isn't simplification of rules but more ways to organize, display and access information. New options that are tailored to different preferences.
The real reason for all the options that are only slightly different isn't to give people more gameplay granularity but for CB to continue to get existing customers to buy new stuff. I think if you saw people using a wider array of options you could make that argument but everything just falls to which version of x is the best that's all we'll use.
CB has hit one of the issues plaguing Privateer. They've been around so long that their catalog is huge but at the same time if they don't introduce new stuff with new rules they won't be able to keep up the growth they've been seeing. It's the big plauge of any wargame really.
Unless they go full MtG and have a restricted play for ITS with only specfic armies for each faction approved each year I don't know how they solve those two problems as eventually the rules will get to the point where even the people that have no issues with it now will have trouble playing them and if they don't introduce new rules then people that have their stuff don't really have a reason to buy the newer stuff that's better.
MtG can get away with what they do because it's been engraned in the game from the start and it doesn't cost a lot to buy into the newest release cycle. A wargame would have a big issue with doing the same as lots of people don't want to drop $100+ just to play in a tourney season plus the hobby time assoicated with getting a new army ready to play. So I guess what they're doing is the lesser of two evils. Still would be nice if they had a way of doing it without feeling cluttered.
.Mikes. wrote: There is that big black N for next November. Just saying.
Also, if anyone hasn't I do recommend the ast Mayacast episide where they talk about opportunities, not to simplify the game, but to streamline the rules and their delivery, Well worth a listen, and I agreed with all the suggestions.
Yeah, in general, it isn't the core rules that are the issue, but the extraneous stuff added by excessive leveled rules, nested rules, slightly altered weapon profiles, and otherwise bloated bits.
Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? ........
You basically listed everything that was talked about int he cast
I have a feeling it is probably a more common complaint among us long-term, playing-since-release, Infinity grogs than one might otherwise think. I may have to give the podcast a listen if only so I can here a different voice go on my rant!
Monkeysloth wrote: The real reason for all the options that are only slightly different isn't to give people more gameplay granularity but for CB to continue to get existing customers to buy new stuff. I think if you saw people using a wider array of options you could make that argument but everything just falls to which version of x is the best that's all we'll use.
CB has hit one of the issues plaguing Privateer. They've been around so long that their catalog is huge but at the same time if they don't introduce new stuff with new rules they won't be able to keep up the growth they've been seeing. It's the big plauge of any wargame really.
How about a link then?
Looked though almost 2 years worth of their episodes and didn't see anything that had the description of what is being discussed.
Monkeysloth wrote:I too much prefer 3'x3' boards. Just lower all weapon range bands so snipers are balanced. The past few times I have played I've gone with the smaller board but haven't bothered shrinking ranges and it's not the most fun unless you like never having to move anything to hit anything.
I disagree. The rangeband mechanic is core to the game and a great source of complexity that does not require more fething rules.
A 3x3 would throw out a lot of the granularity.
I want snipers to outrange HMGs, still have space for medium range bands and have rifles and shotguns operate in a noticeably different way.
Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? Do we need a host of close combat skills sitting outside the MA heading that do similar things? Why Marksman and Fatality? Why do hacking devices bloat up with so many useless programs when only a handful are used? Why does MA contain Stealth and Courage? Why does Berzerk contain Assault? Why does Veteran contain... *he just trails off*
.
Alternatively, what is having any of this costing you? You're not required to remember all of this stuff. Its extremely easy to look up. And reducing the game's rules by even 50% won't mean that you never have to look things up. It will just mean that theres way less options and variety.
Infinity has always been a complex and granular game. Since day 1. It sounds like what we really need isn't simplification of rules but more ways to organize, display and access information. New options that are tailored to different preferences.
We are required to remember most of it. The issue isn't with options and variety, it's with options that are not different enough to actually give variety.
More options don't make a game better, decisions do. Am I taking firepower or a specialist? Burst or damage?
Not; this slight variant or that, but that serve pretty much the same purpose?
Monkeysloth wrote: The real reason for all the options that are only slightly different isn't to give people more gameplay granularity but for CB to continue to get existing customers to buy new stuff. I think if you saw people using a wider array of options you could make that argument but everything just falls to which version of x is the best that's all we'll use.
Uhmmmm... I disagree with this statement. I mean... if this was the CB mindset is a wrong approach to their market, absolutely.
Keeping your focus on a existing community of players is just aiming for a shrinking model year after year. Making a complex game already more complex with the release of expansions is just going to make the playerbase shrink. Smaller and smaller super hardcore player ghetto. A bunch of guys who know the game deeply, even more than its creators (wich is not so difficult nowadays, am I right?).
Rules density, badly organized, poorly streamlined are absolute barriers to the introduction of new players. As soon as your game is not recruiting new players, it is going to decrease.
How is CB going to compete against titans of this industry like GW or FF when they are sticking to a dying community of hardcore fans? When will the next edition of 40K or XWing blast them away from the hot spot of the wargaming business?
I love Infinity, I really like the miniatures and I do not really want it to fade away. I want people playing, I want it to be popular because it's my thing, really.
For achieving those objectives we need an updated streamlined rules and get rid of all those superfluous layers of complexity.
Seems like theres alot of infinity fatigue here.
It is ok to step away and play something else for a while.
However, We like the game because it is complex and presents many tactical options.
The interaction between a zillion rules is what makes it interesting. That doesn't happen in every game though & if I'm going into a game with a profile I don't use often I make sure to reread whatever exotic rule applies.
Yes there is rules bloat, but everything is organized on the wiki pretty well. I have not yet been utterly stumped by a rules question.
If its overly litigious for your tastes take a break for a while, or try playing at a smaller/simpler level for a while. 200 pt lists on a 3x3 table are pretty damned simple because you just can't take too many complicated units. It is a dirtier more up close way to play.
That said certain units really NEED to be played on a 4x4 table at 300 pts. Snipers, TAGs, infiltrators, & AD units need space to stretch their legs. Those are the units that make it fun.
Outside of CB's issues with nested rules I don't find the game legitimately anymore complex rules wise or memory wise than 8th edition 40k. Hell, I don't think 8th edition is even half as streamlined as it ought to be or people feel it is. There is probably 20+ iterations of the same rules effect with a completely different name. That is pretty damn frustrating when your opponent has to explain a rule only for you to realize its just another -1/+1. At least in Infinity, effects and rules apply equally across all armies. The complexity of infinity mostly comes from application of rules both by you and your opponent.
In no way do I want Infinity to even attempt to become like 40k's advanced game of put down models, roll dice, pick up models, put models away and do that until one side has no more models. Or be a test to see who can win on the first turn.
If you are playing Infinity it is because you don't want to play those other games. I highly doubt CB believes it will be GW any time soon. And they do seem to be taking some pointers from GW, which is not to make better rules but just be better at social media.
BrotherGecko wrote: And they do seem to be taking some pointers from GW, which is not to make better rules but just be better at social media.
?!
Excuse me... I might not be totally aware of what has GW did lately in social media. Can you help me?
No irony on my words, really. I usually not give much attention to GW most of the time.
As far as I know CB has uploaded stuff for free since 2005, apart from the rules, the army and campaigns and stuff.
What is GW doing these days? free downloadable candy?
Nice teasers, professional replays on FB, live twitch games (specialist games included), interviews with the designers, two official webcomics, official podcasts, free painting tutorials on YT.
Various degree of success and execution but the sheer number of internet content they're producing is really neat and keeps things interesting.
Listened to the Mayacast episode and they have lots of great points. Not everything we've been discussing here is covered but it seams like there's a large chunk of players who dislike the lack of consistency between terminology, rule stacking, using rules just for fluff as well as organizational things. The goal was how to keep Infinity complex yet elegant. They really covered a lot of just why when I can get people to play it feels like we spend more time looking up rules in a 3 hour game then actually playing and that's why no one really wants to play the game anymore in my group.
DarkBlack wrote:
Monkeysloth wrote:I too much prefer 3'x3' boards. Just lower all weapon range bands so snipers are balanced. The past few times I have played I've gone with the smaller board but haven't bothered shrinking ranges and it's not the most fun unless you like never having to move anything to hit anything.
I disagree. The rangeband mechanic is core to the game and a great source of complexity that does not require more fething rules.
A 3x3 would throw out a lot of the granularity.
I want snipers to outrange HMGs, still have space for medium range bands and have rifles and shotguns operate in a noticeably different way.
Sorry, that comment from me was part of a smaller discussion on how I prefer to play. I don't want to take away your variety of range bands but when I play I tend to prefer smaller boards and find if you don't reduce all the range bands it's not quite as fun. So the next time I play I'd want to do that probably. So just home brew stuff.
BobbaFett wrote:
Monkeysloth wrote: The real reason for all the options that are only slightly different isn't to give people more gameplay granularity but for CB to continue to get existing customers to buy new stuff. I think if you saw people using a wider array of options you could make that argument but everything just falls to which version of x is the best that's all we'll use.
Uhmmmm... I disagree with this statement. I mean... if this was the CB mindset is a wrong approach to their market, absolutely.
Keeping your focus on a existing community of players is just aiming for a shrinking model year after year. Making a complex game already more complex with the release of expansions is just going to make the playerbase shrink. Smaller and smaller super hardcore player ghetto. A bunch of guys who know the game deeply, even more than its creators (wich is not so difficult nowadays, am I right?).
I'm just looking at things from a business perspective. How do you bring in new players and keep the existing ones spending money. Is it pretty cynical, yes, but it really feels like what CB does as it's pretty much what anyone in the hobby at their size ends up having to do. Look at all the new Close Combat stuff that have been added over the past year (like guard) that are 90% what MA is but only 3-4 figures have and none of them are really CC figures either. So rules that rarely come into play that are very similar to common rules but not the same thing that no one is ever going to remember that you have to stop and look up if for some reason they do trigger.
Monkeysloth wrote: Listened to the Mayacast episode and they have lots of great points. Not everything we've been discussing here is covered but it seams like there's a large chunk of players who dislike the lack of consistency between terminology, rule stacking, using rules just for fluff as well as organizational things. The goal was how to keep Infinity complex yet elegant. They really covered a lot of just why when I can get people to play it feels like we spend more time looking up rules in a 3 hour game then actually playing and that's why no one really wants to play the game anymore in my group.
DarkBlack wrote:
Monkeysloth wrote:I too much prefer 3'x3' boards. Just lower all weapon range bands so snipers are balanced. The past few times I have played I've gone with the smaller board but haven't bothered shrinking ranges and it's not the most fun unless you like never having to move anything to hit anything.
I disagree. The rangeband mechanic is core to the game and a great source of complexity that does not require more fething rules.
A 3x3 would throw out a lot of the granularity.
I want snipers to outrange HMGs, still have space for medium range bands and have rifles and shotguns operate in a noticeably different way.
Sorry, that comment from me was part of a smaller discussion on how I prefer to play. I don't want to take away your variety of range bands but when I play I tend to prefer smaller boards and find if you don't reduce all the range bands it's not quite as fun. So the next time I play I'd want to do that probably. So just home brew stuff.
BobbaFett wrote:
Monkeysloth wrote: The real reason for all the options that are only slightly different isn't to give people more gameplay granularity but for CB to continue to get existing customers to buy new stuff. I think if you saw people using a wider array of options you could make that argument but everything just falls to which version of x is the best that's all we'll use.
Uhmmmm... I disagree with this statement. I mean... if this was the CB mindset is a wrong approach to their market, absolutely.
Keeping your focus on a existing community of players is just aiming for a shrinking model year after year. Making a complex game already more complex with the release of expansions is just going to make the playerbase shrink. Smaller and smaller super hardcore player ghetto. A bunch of guys who know the game deeply, even more than its creators (wich is not so difficult nowadays, am I right?).
I'm just looking at things from a business perspective. How do you bring in new players and keep the existing ones spending money. Is it pretty cynical, yes, but it really feels like what CB does as it's pretty much what anyone in the hobby at their size ends up having to do. Look at all the new Close Combat stuff that have been added over the past year (like guard) that are 90% what MA is but only 3-4 figures have and none of them are really CC figures either. So rules that rarely come into play that are very similar to common rules but not the same thing that no one is ever going to remember that you have to stop and look up if for some reason they do trigger.
Infinity has always been a game with skills invented to service only 1-2 profiles.
MSV3, martial arts level 5, impersonation, neurocinetics, holoprojector lvl 3.
This isn't a bad thing. Those rules rarely come up, but they're out there for all to see. It's not some special piece of equipment buried in an single character's profile within an army book somewhere.
Alph used to keep us in line. Haven't seen a mod on this thread for a while now. Any news usually involves pics or videos.
You can ignore all the big blocks of text.
I'm just looking at things from a business perspective. How do you bring in new players and keep the existing ones spending money. Is it pretty cynical, yes, but it really feels like what CB does as it's pretty much what anyone in the hobby at their size ends up having to do. Look at all the new Close Combat stuff that have been added over the past year (like guard) that are 90% what MA is but only 3-4 figures have and none of them are really CC figures either. So rules that rarely come into play that are very similar to common rules but not the same thing that no one is ever going to remember that you have to stop and look up if for some reason they do trigger.
From a business perspective, the 2 player starters, Beyond packs and 300 point army packs are the best thing they can do for new players. Giving new players a way to circumvent army building and just saying "start here" helps immensely, and for the most part, CB has done a good job of making sure those packs provide a playable and varied representation of the full game.
I think for long time players, it feels like there's a pretty industry wide push towards sub factions as the solution. It makes sense; sub factions work similar to mercenaries, giving players a way to branch into a new segment of the catalog and experience a new playstyle by buying a few things rather than needing to start over. Most companies seem to be doing something similar, be it Sectorals, Keywords, Theme Forces, Minor Guilds, etc. Smaller purchases that unlock the ability to buy into other areas of the game gradually. It's just a less centralized version of the Merc concept and mostly sidesteps the problem of powerful mercs homogenizing the game.
I'm just looking at things from a business perspective. How do you bring in new players and keep the existing ones spending money. Is it pretty cynical, yes, but it really feels like what CB does as it's pretty much what anyone in the hobby at their size ends up having to do. Look at all the new Close Combat stuff that have been added over the past year (like guard) that are 90% what MA is but only 3-4 figures have and none of them are really CC figures either. So rules that rarely come into play that are very similar to common rules but not the same thing that no one is ever going to remember that you have to stop and look up if for some reason they do trigger.
From a business perspective, the 2 player starters, Beyond packs and 300 point army packs are the best thing they can do for new players. Giving new players a way to circumvent army building and just saying "start here" helps immensely, and for the most part, CB has done a good job of making sure those packs provide a playable and varied representation of the full game.
I think for long time players, it feels like there's a pretty industry wide push towards sub factions as the solution. It makes sense; sub factions work similar to mercenaries, giving players a way to branch into a new segment of the catalog and experience a new playstyle by buying a few things rather than needing to start over. Most companies seem to be doing something similar, be it Sectorals, Keywords, Theme Forces, Minor Guilds, etc. Smaller purchases that unlock the ability to buy into other areas of the game gradually. It's just a less centralized version of the Merc concept and mostly sidesteps the problem of powerful mercs homogenizing the game.
It really is another straw man argument.
Infinity is definitely more accessible than ever before. I remember buying the original JSA sectorial box and feeling pretty clueless about what to get after that.
It took a bunch of games making huge mistakes to figure the game out. My poor oniwaban will forever be known as the idiot who died at the knife of some lowly ghulam. You know, cyber ninja, they kill everything!
It’s so different now with a WEALTH of entry points for new players.
3 two player boxes to pick from, each with direct expansion packs.
And a bunch of 300 pt army in a box choices out there.
Long time players meanwhile, are being directed toward expanding into new sectorials or resculpts on existing minis. It’s not brilliant, but what else can they do to keep it fresh?
CB is doing fine. If people are feeling otherwise they should probably take a break for a while. The game always feels fresh when I look away for a few months and jump back in.
Alph used to keep us in line. Haven't seen a mod on this thread for a while now. Any news usually involves pics or videos.
You can ignore all the big blocks of text.
He did, but he *retired* this past March. I hope that he and his family be well.
Thing is, I can't ignore the big blocks of text. Far too tempting to read them.
Anyway, despite my complaints/criticisms, which are fairly consistent, and not particularly numerous, I still want to start the Vedics as my next force. All the new stuff just looks so good. And it's not painted black and red.
Not that there is anything wrong with red. Or black. It's just an over-used color scheme these days.
Has anyone had a chance to play through the ASA mission set, Runenberg Beseiged? I think that this sort of thing, mission packs, are a pretty good idea.
Ronin_eX wrote: Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? Do we need a host of close combat skills sitting outside the MA heading that do similar things? Why Marksman and Fatality? Why do hacking devices bloat up with so many useless programs when only a handful are used? Why does MA contain Stealth and Courage? Why does Berzerk contain Assault? Why does Veteran contain... *he just trails off*
Totally agree with your post; this bit in particular.
I've been following the lead-up to Guild Ball's latest edition, and one of the key goals its creators had was streamlining and de-bloating, which has increased my desire to get into that game. True, it's a very different sort of game, but it is nice to see creators keeping an eye on this sort of thing.
Complexity does not necessarily lead to increased tactical depth; there is a sweet spot here, and saying that I want Infinity to cut the bloat absolutely is not meant to imply that I want to play something more beer 'n' pretzels. I like that Infinity demands so much of your attention, I like that it has depth and that you really have to think your moves through; I just don't want to constantly be re-reminding myself of what extra gubbins each level of a skill adds (instead of the bonuses just increasing in such way that you could work it out without ever having to read past level 1) or which skills have which other skills nested within them.
It doesn't even feel like I'm getting anything in return for the extra hassle, just complexity for its own sake. If they toned it down even a little bit, I'd be pretty happy.
From the forums: Tikbalan in MO is likely o get DACCW. Apparently it's possibility that it may - *may* - lose Mimetism also. And the Seraph rework may see it getting two profiles, one sans Aux Bot.
TIK without Mimitism loses a lot of its appeal. But also, MO seems liek a weird place for it anyway. I understand wanting to move it to another sectorial, but honestly Varuna seems like a MUCH better place for it.Or just let it be a vanilla option? Its pretty good in vanilla, isn't it?
I keep hoping we'll get some kind of indication of whether theres anything more to the MAF update beyond what we were shown. I wasn't particularly impressed or excited ove are those changes, but some love for Zerats, Oznats, Sogarats, Kurgats and Rasyats would get me to unpack my Morats again after a nearly year long break. Otherwise, I can't really see returning to the army any time soon.
Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.
I'm excited about a Seraph rework, though. I'm a big fan of it as is and think it's fantastic value, and the ability to just disconnect from the Auxbot doesn't make it the anchor some see it as. But I'll take anything that's a leg up for it. Having an aux-bot-less profile for a bit cheaper would be nice.
Now we just need some indication KotHS is getting some love....
.Mikes. wrote: Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.
Then they didn't have to give VIRD the Uhlan.
This isn't complicated.
I'm excited about a Seraph rework, though. I'm a big fan of it as is and think it's fantastic value, and the ability to just disconnect from the Auxbot doesn't make it the anchor some see it as. But I'll take anything that's a leg up for it. Having an aux-bot-less profile for a bit cheaper would be nice.
Yeah, no. Auxbots need a price drop or more variation. That'd go a long way towards fixing issues with the Seraph and design philosophy of PanO pre-VIRD.
.Mikes. wrote: Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.
.Mikes. wrote: Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.
Then they didn't have to give VIRD the Uhlan.
This isn't complicated.
.
It's not because they didn't.
Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the Squalo.
If they didn't want VIRD to have three fighty TAGs? They didn't have to give them the Squalo.
Ronin_eX wrote: Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? Do we need a host of close combat skills sitting outside the MA heading that do similar things? Why Marksman and Fatality? Why do hacking devices bloat up with so many useless programs when only a handful are used? Why does MA contain Stealth and Courage? Why does Berzerk contain Assault? Why does Veteran contain... *he just trails off*
Totally agree with your post; this bit in particular.
I've been following the lead-up to Guild Ball's latest edition, and one of the key goals its creators had was streamlining and de-bloating, which has increased my desire to get into that game. True, it's a very different sort of game, but it is nice to see creators keeping an eye on this sort of thing.
Complexity does not necessarily lead to increased tactical depth; there is a sweet spot here, and saying that I want Infinity to cut the bloat absolutely is not meant to imply that I want to play something more beer 'n' pretzels. I like that Infinity demands so much of your attention, I like that it has depth and that you really have to think your moves through; I just don't want to constantly be re-reminding myself of what extra gubbins each level of a skill adds (instead of the bonuses just increasing in such way that you could work it out without ever having to read past level 1) or which skills have which other skills nested within them.
It doesn't even feel like I'm getting anything in return for the extra hassle, just complexity for its own sake. If they toned it down even a little bit, I'd be pretty happy.
Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.
Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.
Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.
Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.
Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".
Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.
Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.
Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".
Makes sense considering Infinity grew into a tactical skirmish game from an RPG.
The recent escalation of game scale doesn't mean it should function like a wargame. Too many people making lists with 15-20 orders will make the game too complicated for the current rues.
Encouraging people to limit themselves to one combat group will hopefully fix this.
Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.
Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.
Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".
Makes sense considering Infinity grew into a tactical skirmish game from an RPG.
Cool, then let's cut all the armies and just give you a single model to play with.
The recent escalation of game scale doesn't mean it should function like a wargame. Too many people making lists with 15-20 orders will make the game too complicated for the current rues.
This isn't "recent". It's been happening since the outset for Ariadna. This is also a ridiculous statement in thinking that it's the number of Orders that will "make the game too complicated".
Encouraging people to limit themselves to one combat group will hopefully fix this.
Sure, and while we're at it let's just cut Ariadna from the game. Their whole schtick is cheap, low tech troops fielded en masse. Even their "elite" USARF can still do a 20 Order list easypeasy.
See earlier remarks I made about "backdating" Sectorials and why them shifting design philosophies based upon metas is not good for the game.
Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.
Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.
Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".
Makes sense considering Infinity grew into a tactical skirmish game from an RPG.
Cool, then let's cut all the armies and just give you a single model to play with.
The recent escalation of game scale doesn't mean it should function like a wargame. Too many people making lists with 15-20 orders will make the game too complicated for the current rues.
This isn't "recent". It's been happening since the outset for Ariadna. This is also a ridiculous statement in thinking that it's the number of Orders that will "make the game too complicated".
Encouraging people to limit themselves to one combat group will hopefully fix this.
Sure, and while we're at it let's just cut Ariadna from the game. Their whole schtick is cheap, low tech troops fielded en masse. Even their "elite" USARF can still do a 20 Order list easypeasy.
See earlier remarks I made about "backdating" Sectorials and why them shifting design philosophies based upon metas is not good for the game.
I could ask why you are here complaining when you could go play a proper wargame with 100 minis?
An avatar list is basically a 1 mini list.
I'm not talking Ariadna lists. I'm talking ITS lists designed to spread functionality as thin as possible. All the button pushing they put into scenarios made it impossible to take high value point sink. It's why TAGs were never used & why a list would have one low value HI choice at most in competition.
The meta is going to change regardless. It's in a better place now.
Again we're vastly off topic and in the weeds about meta vagueries. Every post you make, I'm left asking why you even play this game anymore?
The different levels of the skills matter a fair bit. They tend to define the strengths of different factions. Everyone has everything, but a faction with cheaper models likely has a worse version of advanced deployment. The difference between say and Yuan Yuan and Hellcat are pretty important.
I think it could be organized a little better. What they really need is a better way to do branching trees. X level skills kind of work, but could be cleaner. Some skill branches are pretty well grouped, others could use some work (Vet Level 2 is messy at best). It's not awful though, just something that could be better.
The one that always bugged me (and is what Kanluwen is objecting to, if I'm not mistaken) was Martial Arts L2; it gives you the benefit of the Valor: Courage skill. Why not just give the model Valor: Courage too and make it less confusing? It's the same s when 7th edition 40k had "<Obscure unit special rule>: This unit has Feel No Pain", which everyone seemed to complain about.
There's a few where the levels don't seem to advance from one to the other; I can see how you'd want to group them into a similar category, but they're not necessarily adding to a base skill level as you increase.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The one that always bugged me (and is what Kanluwen is objecting to, if I'm not mistaken) was Martial Arts L2; it gives you the benefit of the Valor: Courage skill. Why not just give the model Valor: Courage too and make it less confusing? It's the same s when 7th edition 40k had "<Obscure unit special rule>: This unit has Feel No Pain", which everyone seemed to complain about.
There's a few where the levels don't seem to advance from one to the other; I can see how you'd want to group them into a similar category, but they're not necessarily adding to a base skill level as you increase.
This is the nested skill thing that most people here are agreeing about as all MA levels gives you stealth and courage. Morat gives you Veteran and Religious. There's no reason for Morat to exist as a skill as all it does is give you two others skill. MA shouldn't have these other skills hidden in it and all profiles that CB wants to have those skills should just be listed.
Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".
How many of those actual skills are there? Veteran lvl 2, Morat... I'm sure theres a few more. But its not that many, is it. 10 total maybe? Thats hardly a problem. Thats hardlya game breaking issue. At worst its a matter of a quick lookup.
This is the nested skill thing that most people here are agreeing about as all MA levels gives you stealth and courage. Morat gives you Veteran and Religious. There's no reason for Morat to exist as a skill as all it does is give you two others skill. MA shouldn't have these other skills hidden in it and all profiles that CB wants to have those skills should just be listed.
Sure. But thats not actually a game breaking problem, is it? How often does Martial Art's inclusion of Stealth and Courage actually cause a problem? Every now and then? I don't disagree that incuding these skills on the profile might be better, but its hardly something that needs to be complained bout either, is it? I mean, if you've played the game more than a few times you've probably used a troop with MA. And while you may forget it has Stealth the first few times you use it, eventually you'll remember. Not a huge deal Same f you're facing a MA model. You'll eventually remember they ALL have access to Stealth.
'
It would be nice if, going forward, they'd just go ahead and list those skills. But if they don't I don't think its really a big deal.
Ya there's not a lot of them but it's indicative of a larger part of the rules that need to be rewritten if only to make things clearer and not change said rules.
Here's a list of things, more or less, from the mayacast episode just around how the rules are written (but no the rules themselves)
Nested rules
rules in examples that are not in the actual rule text
rules in call out boxes that aren't actually in the rule text
Higher level skills that are less functional then the lower level skills
Rules that only exist for fluff reasons that actually don't do anything gameplay wise (Tohaa have some)
Rules that do the exact same thing as another rule but name different for fluff reason (symbiote armor and the others ones that flip profiles. Just have a different rule around Tohaa's fire weakness added in the unit box)
Inconsistency in what a label in the rule does (recent faq where even though a skill or equipment had a label meaning it got other rules it actually doesn't but they're also not removing that label)
Rules where equipment does something despite not having the required label (weapons that do breaker damage without being labeled as breaker)
Rules where the modifier to skills are different even though the equipment is the same "name" (medkit vs automed kit)
movement vs Movement
Dodge doing different things depending on who's active turn it is
There's a lot more too as those are just off the top of my head from when I listened to it two days ago. And I'm not even including the hacking and weapons and things like fury (which they make the argument doesn't need to exists as it's just impetuous 1 pretending to be something else) as that's a different argument to "are the rules hard to navigate or understand".
The rules need a rewrite not to remove things people can do but actually make it so people can understand fully what their units can do.
Monkeysloth wrote: Ya there's not a lot of them but it's indicative of a larger part of the rules that need to be rewritten if only to make things clearer and not change said rules.
Here's a list of things, more or less, from the mayacast episode just around how the rules are written (but no the rules themselves)
Nested rules
rules in examples that are not in the actual rule text
rules in call out boxes that aren't actually in the rule text
Higher level skills that are less functional then the lower level skills
Rules that only exist for fluff reasons that actually don't do anything gameplay wise (Tohaa have some)
Rules that do the exact same thing as another rule but name different for fluff reason (symbiote armor and the others ones that flip profiles. Just have a different rule around Tohaa's fire weakness added in the unit box)
Inconsistency in what a label in the rule does (recent faq where even though a skill or equipment had a label meaning it got other rules it actually doesn't but they're also not removing that label)
Rules where equipment does something despite not having the required label (weapons that do breaker damage without being labeled as breaker)
Rules where the modifier to skills are different even though the equipment is the same "name" (medkit vs automed kit)
movement vs Movement
Dodge doing different things depending on who's active turn it is
There's a lot more too as those are just off the top of my head from when I listened to it two days ago. And I'm not even including the hacking and weapons and things like fury (which they make the argument doesn't need to exists as it's just impetuous 1 pretending to be something else) as that's a different argument to "are the rules hard to navigate or understand".
The rules need a rewrite not to remove things people can do but actually make it so people can understand fully what their units can do.
TBH I’m having a harder time understanding this list than the rules on the wiki.
Infinity is a gamers game. It’s not a good entry point for new tabletop miniatures gamers.
You’re talking a complete tear down and rebuild.
That would be especially difficult because the naming conventions would be rearranged.
IE: It took me a while to realize marker became pitcher in N3.
You are talking about retooling, consolidating, and renaming of weapons, skills, & equipment just because it’s not perfect.
The core mechanic of active orders and AROs is solid. Otherwise, The rule bloat is just not that bad yet.
Most of that list is things you'll find in any game out there. Infinity has some unique quirks, but its remarkably approachable. The starters do a good job of focusing on the core firefight mechanics and its a pretty great game if you only go that deep. Hacking and melee are additional layers worth exploring, but fairly optional all things considered and pretty easy to wrap your head around once you've played a couple games with the guns.
Nested skills are fine IMO, as long as they aren't over used. GW over used them. CB does not, yet.
They are useful in the interest of saving space on a unit profile. It takes less space to print Veteran Lvl2 than to print V: No Wound Incapacitation and Sixth Sense lvl2. Plus it has the effects of Veteran Lvl1 so it does have something beyond just giving two other special rules.
This Episode of Maya cast covers alot of overhaul ideas... I agree with most of it as well
Over a 160 different individual weapon profile entries I do think it is time for a little bit of Cleanup in this game as much as I enjoy it and I'm not complaining...
The game does need a basic overhaul
https://mayacast.com/2018/08/17/mayacast-episode-194-reduce-reuse-recycle/
They are useful in the interest of saving space on a unit profile. It takes less space to print Veteran Lvl2 than to print V: No Wound Incapacitation and Sixth Sense lvl2. Plus it has the effects of Veteran Lvl1 so it does have something beyond just giving two other special rules.
But why is saving space more important than clarity? I don’t care how tidy the profile layout is, I just want a reminder that my trooper also has Courage.
Seriously, the consensus seems to be this game is all-or-nothing: you either commit rules from multiple books to memory, or GTFO. Which is a horrible way to get new blood into the game, which means the existing player base must continually buy new armies if CB is going to stay afloat...
Seriously, the consensus seems to be this game is all-or-nothing: you either commit rules from multiple books to memory, or GTFO. Which is a horrible way to get new blood into the game, which means the existing player base must continually buy new armies if CB is going to stay afloat...
Except the game isn't all or nothing. You're not required to commit anything to memory at all (although as you play you will of course start to remember). The very easy to use and free army app is linked to the very easy to use and free wiki and allows evey rules to be referenced very quickly. As long as you know and understand the basic structure of the game you don;t have to memorize anything else. This idea that you have to memorize tons and tons for rules is ridiculous, and only true if you refuse to use the tools that have been provided with the game. Similarly, the idea that the game has too many rules is only a problem if you're trying to remember them all. You don't have to. It doesn't matter of there are hundreds of unique weapon profiles. You'll never be required to remember any of them, and you'll almost never you more than a dozen at a time anyway.
Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.
I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".
AndrewGPaul wrote: Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.
I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".
Has yet to be a problem. Always had wifi or data. Dont usually need to look up many rules tbh. Army builder will concisely give you all the profiles, weapons range bands, & hacking programs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
5deadly wrote: This Episode of Maya cast covers alot of overhaul ideas... I agree with most of it as well
Over a 160 different individual weapon profile entries I do think it is time for a little bit of Cleanup in this game as much as I enjoy it and I'm not complaining...
The game does need a basic overhaul
https://mayacast.com/2018/08/17/mayacast-episode-194-reduce-reuse-recycle/
Ok this podcast is largely a fun exercise in slogging through the rules, but most of these gripes they're bringing up are clearly people who have misconstrued their poor understanding of the rules as bad writing.
There is also this unrealistic expectation here that the rules should be written such that someone playing for the FIRST time won't make ANY mistakes. I have not played any complex game where we didn't later pick up a mistake we made in the vey first session. That's just the nature of games.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.
I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".
Well, you could always buy the books if you want an internet free way to look up the rules.
I do use the books - and assuming all the information is accurate, they're often quicker to flick through than waiting for wiki pages to load.
Our club venue theoretically has free Wi-Fi, but it's an awful connection and keeps dropping. And I need to reference the rulebook because I haven't memorised the rules.
I don't think anyone is sensibly claiming that the rules should be perfectly understood on a first pass; people are just saying that there are areas for improvement. The phraseology has improved massively since 1st edition, but there's still lots of places where a sentence reads like it's got English words using Spanish grammar, for example.
Absolutionis wrote: Flipping through books to find the (potentially outdated) rules is a bit of a hassle. This is coming from someone that actually owns all the books.
I'd rather have TCG-like cards with all the uncommon rules spelled out. It keeps even some of the most rules-bloated games like Malifaux manageable.
Cards would in theory also be subject to updates. Now you need to reissue note cards and we need to keep track of them to make sure we’re using the most recent set.
We already have sets of objective decks, and a zillion tokens. We don’t need more parts to this game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AndrewGPaul wrote: I do use the books - and assuming all the information is accurate, they're often quicker to flick through than waiting for wiki pages to load.
Our club venue theoretically has free Wi-Fi, but it's an awful connection and keeps dropping. And I need to reference the rulebook because I haven't memorised the rules.
I don't think anyone is sensibly claiming that the rules should be perfectly understood on a first pass; people are just saying that there are areas for improvement. The phraseology has improved massively since 1st edition, but there's still lots of places where a sentence reads like it's got English words using Spanish grammar, for example.
It really is so much better. 1sr/2nd edition were an utter train wreck.
We’re just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking here.
For crying out loud, the app is directly linked to the wiki. You click the rule, it loads the page.
Yah I guess no WiFi/data would be rough, it hasn’t happened to me. Maybe ask your club to fix their WiFi issues & see if there’s anything the infinity players can do to help diagnose the issue?
AndrewGPaul wrote: I do use the books - and assuming all the information is accurate, they're often quicker to flick through than waiting for wiki pages to load.
Our club venue theoretically has free Wi-Fi, but it's an awful connection and keeps dropping. And I need to reference the rulebook because I haven't memorised the rules.
I don't think anyone is sensibly claiming that the rules should be perfectly understood on a first pass; people are just saying that there are areas for improvement. The phraseology has improved massively since 1st edition, but there's still lots of places where a sentence reads like it's got English words using Spanish grammar, for example.
You shouldn't need WiFi. Apps work offline and get updates when they have a connection.
Maybe ask your club to fix their WiFi issues & see if there’s anything the infinity players can do to help diagnose the issue?
It's not worth the effort, frankly. I've got better things to do than convince the council to install another access point just so I can get to a website quicker. It's not a problem - I don't mind consulting the rulebook (except when I forget and bring the wrong book, like I did last week; luckily I could get a good enough connection to download the PDF of the rules); it's just that I think the layout and presentation of the rulebook isn't as good as it could be, that's all.
Maybe ask your club to fix their WiFi issues & see if there’s anything the infinity players can do to help diagnose the issue?
It's not worth the effort, frankly. I've got better things to do than convince the council to install another access point just so I can get to a website quicker. It's not a problem - I don't mind consulting the rulebook (except when I forget and bring the wrong book, like I did last week; luckily I could get a good enough connection to download the PDF of the rules); it's just that I think the layout and presentation of the rulebook isn't as good as it could be, that's all.
After you download the PDF you should save it locally. That way you can bring it up wherever you want regardless of connection quality.
LunarSol wrote: I've been really happy with N3. It's a solid system that's fairly streamlined (it could do without nested special rules). It's not a very good system for physical media though. The rules are very reference table driven, which means they're a nightmare to lookup manually, but pretty easily compile down into a pretty digestible size on a per model basis.
I don't think cards really work for it, simply because there are so many options when you get down to the different equipment sets. I think it would just feel like an overwhelming number of cards, not to mention layout issues with stuff like hackers and the like.
I disagree. Look at the stuff GW's done for "warscroll cards" or "datacards".
If they can manage to fit the rules for an entire unit and its weapons on bit that's a bit larger than an index card(the most recent Nighthaunt/Stormcast iteration of the warscroll cards)? Infinity can do it easily as well.
They'd just have to be faction specific.
Thing is, once you make those cards there is a good chance they will become obsolete via errata. So then you either need to re-release the cards with the errata or sell replacement cards. Either way, you have a major hassle. This is why Privateer Press is moving so quickly over to a fully digital rules format.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Can you please explain how an online wiki is "easy to use" in a room with no connection to the internet? Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.
I wonder if there's also a better way to represent all the weapons that boil down to "B1 Combi-Rifle with different ammo type".
Has yet to be a problem. Always had wifi or data.
Survivor bias is a thing.
I've played games in places with no data access. It slows things down considerably, and we both had played for years.
I can understand wifi and having a device being a barrier, and that without them the game is slowed down... but I consider them to be essential parts of the game. or at least of playing the game to its full potential.
If using the app and wiki isn't a possibility I can understand the desire for cards or a better indexed book, but honestly i see cards as a much bigger barrier than the app/wiki. And while the book can always be improved (and probably will be one day) it will also always be more difficult to use and less complete than the app and wiki.
Maybe its just a matter of preferences. I think cards are a poor idea, but maybe thats what some people need, even if its expensive and impractical. Maybe other players need a constantly updated rule book, with new editions every year? Even though thats not unpractical either. Maybe CB needs to market a custom digital device that easily displays the app, wiki and rulebook and doesn't rely on an internet connection? Thats not practical either, but different people may need different solutions.
I don't think simplifying or streamlining the game, or cutting out "bloat" is a good solution. The problem isn't having expansive rule
s with a huge amount of options. if anything, thats one of Infinity's great strengths. the problem is finding a way to easily access all of that. For some of us thats the app and wiki, and its working as intended. But I guess other people need a different solution.
LunarSol wrote: I don’t have an Android so I’ve never used it but several people I know use the app version of army. Is that online or local?
It's not on the apple app store IIRC, but there are other army builder apps like mayanet out there that are kept up to date.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking at the IAAVA charts, why on earth is Sun Tze not in IA?
Yeah, the Army app is Android only I believe. I just wasn't sure if it was offline enabled or not.
MayaNet is terrific. Vast improvement on the playability of the game all around. It appears to be tablet only though, so it doesn't really help if you're phone only. A cheap tablet is a great tool to have for wargaming these days all around though. I've got mine loaded with the app, rulebooks, tournament packs, etc for each game I play. Probably my most essential tool these days after the tape measure and dice (which, come to think of it, I've gotten away with forgetting easier than my tablet...)
But why is saving space more important than clarity? I don’t care how tidy the profile layout is, I just want a reminder that my trooper also has Courage.
Seriously, the consensus seems to be this game is all-or-nothing: you either commit rules from multiple books to memory, or GTFO. Which is a horrible way to get new blood into the game, which means the existing player base must continually buy new armies if CB is going to stay afloat...
...but at least the profiles are tidy.
In my experience with the infinity Community it's not GTFO and you don't have to memorize the entire game to go start playing.
This isn't simplified units this is a game that was an RPG turned into a skirmish game.
While I don't disagree and there is WAY too much crying here on Dakka, calling them names or making it into an intelligence issue with run-on sentances and poor grammar maybe isn't the best way to solve it. You honestly don't need to be particularly smart to play this game as it's not nearly so complicated as many of the pen & paper RPGs out there. D&D/Pathfinder is decidedly more complicated than Infinity, and that's not even an especially in-depth RPG system compared to some.
There's a bias out there (especially recently) that skirmish games are meant to be fast games or simple games where you can play a bunch in a short amount of time. One of the things I've always loved about Infinity is that you get the same level of tactical depth that you would from an army-scale game. The dozen figures you put out on the table will give you a full wargame experience just as a game of Warmachine or 40K or WHFB/KoW. You have less figures so the complexity level NEEDS to be ramped up to give you the same overall feel as playing with a company or a platoon in other games. Each model in Infinity is a full unit in and of itself. Infinity ISN'T a fast game, it ISN'T a simple game, and while 5deadly's post is far too antagonistic, some of the points are valid. Namely that people that DO want fast and simple will be better served by other skirmish games on the market.
That said, maybe take it down a notch. It's frustrating dealing with the constant negativity towards the game here on Dakka, but that's a bit too far and does nobody any good.
It's not the complexity that's the problem for me - the interaction of active and reactive orders, hacking, freedom of movement, non-combat objectives, etc is all fine. It's the complication that I have trouble with, because I don't concentrate my free time on Infinity; dozens of different hacking programs, a huge list of skills, lots of weapons with nearly-identical profiles, that sort of thing. My opinion is that that information could be presented in a different fashion that would be an improvement.
I don't want a game of Infinity that lasts half an hour. I want one that lasts three hours or so, as that's the length of time I have for a game. I'll need to see if I can convince people to play games lasting for more than three turns.
@AndrewGPaul a good game can last about 2 hours around depends on how fast you're playing and how large your forces there are nights when we can get two games in within 3 to 4 hours... the idea is you don't have to learn every single Army.. Just learn yours...
If you have a local gaming group and there's already people that are playing.. there's almost always someone inside that group that's going to really want to teach you how to play so that you can join them... I'm starting to wonder how many people who complain on these forums have actually played yet..
@Kalamadea
You're right that talks to text run-on sentences rant on my way out of work this morning probably isn't helping the case it's so frustrating man I'm dealing with this personally...
You see my friend is a Warhammer 40K player. His inability to change from that system to Infinity and the idea that he thinks that throwing $500 at Infinity is the way to win is very frustrating.
It is kind of selfishly satisfying to know I put $60 worth of models on the table and I win vs. his $300 worth of models while giving him a fair game, while he tries to play beardie on the borderline of cheating. at the same time it's frustrating to see him lose it because thinking that once again this is a some kind of 40K Forge World tanks spam thing. where buying the most expensive things and having the most toys is actually going to win you the game and it doesn't...
I think the frustration stems from the idea that you've got to be tactical than this game you've got to discuss things with your opponent you've got to be willing to learn new things and if you can't do that you're not going to have fun and neither is your opponent and I probably shouldn't get so upset that there's so many people just whining what's new right...
Sorry for the run on sentences but talk to text while I walk
One side is asking for a trim and the other is arguing that a major simplification is a bad idea. Both are right.
Infinity is enjoyed by those of us who enjoy it because it is complex. There is an abundance of weapons and skills, many are practically a signature of their faction and rare outside it. There are so many that each trooper can be a unique combination, rather than an idea expressed in terms of a stat + special rule framework like KoW does. Most (if not all) of us agree on that.
On the other hand, the rules can be written better. There are rules with such small differences that they don't actually make the game any better, just more unweildly. The game can definitly be more elegant, while delivering the same experience. Words like "streamline" and "simplify" scare people because those people assume them to be meant at a different scale than they are. The idea is not to dumb it down.
The suggestion is more like an edit and polish than a overhaul.
Personally I think hacking needs some actual streamlining. The programs right now, particularly claw, are a mess. Yes they’re all different in subtle ways but is that really adding anything to the game? Also the fact that redrum is the mathematically correct program for every situation for a killer hacker shows that the sword 2 programs also have some bloat that is just confusing for even experienced players.
Just to clarify, 5deadly, I’ve been playing this game since before the rulebook was released, and miniature games in general for thirty years. I’m not too stupid to understand the game. It’s generally the presentation that’s the problem, not the content.
One side is asking for a trim and the other is arguing that a major simplification is a bad idea. Both are right.
Infinity is enjoyed by those of us who enjoy it because it is complex. There is an abundance of weapons and skills, many are practically a signature of their faction and rare outside it. There are so many that each trooper can be a unique combination, rather than an idea expressed in terms of a stat + special rule framework like KoW does. Most (if not all) of us agree on that.
On the other hand, the rules can be written better. There are rules with such small differences that they don't actually make the game any better, just more unweildly. The game can definitly be more elegant, while delivering the same experience. Words like "streamline" and "simplify" scare people because those people assume them to be meant at a different scale than they are. The idea is not to dumb it down.
The suggestion is more like an edit and polish than a overhaul.
Nobody will deny the game could be simplified and streamlined without losing any depth or detail.
However, there just aren’t enough problems to justify the need for an overhaul.
There are certain technicalities and eccentricities in the wording and structure that are necessary. These often cause people with poor understanding/familiarity with the rules to throw up their hands in frustration. When you mull them over, the wording & structure if often necessary and has a purpose.
Considering how the universe and release schedule came to a GRINDING halt to put out N3, Things are not bad enough right now to justify a 3.5 or 4th edition ruleset. Keep in mind that all existing profiles would have to be reviewed, sectorial balance addressed, & probably many models rendered obsolete.
It just isn’t worth the pain and suffering yet to redo the core rules again.
I am also getting the impression that people are frustrated facing opponents purposely misinterpreting the rules to cheese out wins. That’s people being jerks, not the fault of the rules.
We are unlikely to get any previews of minis for another 2 weeks. We have already seen some of the November releases.
Do we know all of the November releases? The Beyond Coldfront Box, the Varuna Starter, the Line Kazaks box are all at the pre-order stage. And the 3rd Offensive book. Anything more?
AndrewGPaul wrote: Just to clarify, 5deadly, I’ve been playing this game since before the rulebook was released, and miniature games in general for thirty years. I’m not too stupid to understand the game. It’s generally the presentation that’s the problem, not the content.
I was just suggesting the App prior to my Rant ... it really wasn't about you tbh sorry man
As it happens, I'm in the mood to play some infinity again for the first time since the first Beasts of War campaign; don't know why. I've already dragged out my minis (and dropped them all on the floor :( ), dumped all the outdated sculpts into the "to be sold" pile and sorted the JSA models into separate foam trays. Now it all looks much more manageable; I don't have dozens of different troop types to worry about when building a list. I just need the 3rd Offensive book and the Invincible Army list and I can stop even considering anything that's not HI.
Tunguska still needs a bunch of stuff and we're already onto Varuna & IA.
Where is the feuerbach securitate? That's the one was all want to use. Are we still going to get a Grenzer box?
Personal wish list also includes a new senior massacre & non-exclusive sculpt for the wardriver
My wishlist would be a new Dao Fei or Guilang for Yu Jing. Apart from the basoic Remotes, they're the last 1st edition minis still on sale for Yu Jing, and the Dao Fei looks a little titchy now.
AndrewGPaul wrote: My wishlist would be a new Dao Fei or Guilang for Yu Jing. Apart from the basoic Remotes, they're the last 1st edition minis still on sale for Yu Jing, and the Dao Fei looks a little titchy now.
Dao Fei & Guilang were unfortunately not included in IA. (I know, wait for the Svarlheima sectorial.) Doesnt mean they shouldn't be updated. The beyond Red Veil resculpts are probably all we're getting. Looks like they have invented some new stuff to fill those infiltration roles for IA; Profiles yet to be seen.
I am pretty disappointed that Sun Tze isnt in IA.
It would be very nice if they made resculpting the old remotes an ongoing priority. I have held off on them for years now because they're just awful right now.
The bigger ones could do with a change - the equipment doesn't seem very well integrated - but the original ones are fine, I think. Although if they ended up looking similar to the Siu Jian moibility form again, that'd be cool.
I played against a Sun Tze "Invincible" army 2 weeks ago...
Not being able to have a reserve model and him having 2 reserve models which were both HI was so advantageous counter deploying with 2 Yan Huo was tough...
Tunguska still needs a bunch of stuff and we're already onto Varuna & IA.
Where is the feuerbach securitate? That's the one was all want to use. Are we still going to get a Grenzer box?
Personal wish list also includes a new senior massacre & non-exclusive sculpt for the wardriver
There's a few things we've seen renders for that feel like probable Nov releases. The Securitate box is certainly an oddity that makes the getting what Tunguska needs feel like its a long ways off. At the moment though, I'm hoping to see some of the vanilla and StarCo singles. Moon Knight, Ms. Problems, and the Zondnautica are the top of my wishlist.
AndrewGPaul wrote: My wishlist would be a new Dao Fei or Guilang for Yu Jing. Apart from the basoic Remotes, they're the last 1st edition minis still on sale for Yu Jing, and the Dao Fei looks a little titchy now.
YJ releases for a while will most likely just be Invincible Army stuff, so won’t see them for a while.
Tunguska still needs a bunch of stuff and we're already onto Varuna & IA.
Where is the feuerbach securitate? That's the one was all want to use. Are we still going to get a Grenzer box?
Personal wish list also includes a new senior massacre & non-exclusive sculpt for the wardriver
There's a few things we've seen renders for that feel like probable Nov releases. The Securitate box is certainly an oddity that makes the getting what Tunguska needs feel like its a long ways off. At the moment though, I'm hoping to see some of the vanilla and StarCo singles. Moon Knight, Ms. Problems, and the Zondnautica are the top of my wishlist.
Brawlers are a glaring omission. Unless we are just supposed to always proxy them. I wouldnt be surprised if that was expected since they're a catch all merc profile.
Tunguska still needs a bunch of stuff and we're already onto Varuna & IA.
Where is the feuerbach securitate? That's the one was all want to use. Are we still going to get a Grenzer box?
Personal wish list also includes a new senior massacre & non-exclusive sculpt for the wardriver
There's a few things we've seen renders for that feel like probable Nov releases. The Securitate box is certainly an oddity that makes the getting what Tunguska needs feel like its a long ways off. At the moment though, I'm hoping to see some of the vanilla and StarCo singles. Moon Knight, Ms. Problems, and the Zondnautica are the top of my wishlist.
Brawlers are a glaring omission. Unless we are just supposed to always proxy them. I wouldnt be surprised if that was expected since they're a catch all merc profile.
That's true. I have the uprising one, but there's a major need for the MSV Sniper model. I'd also like a non-exclusive CSU with a Rifle since the boarding shotgun isn't super useful. That's an easy proxy though, for hte reasons mentioned.
Will be nice to get a new Shang Ji. That one is way overdue. Hopefully the profile is spruced up too. They’re supposed to be the most advanced HI and all, but updates to all HI since N3 have rendered them avg at best.
We got a new Daofei in the Beyond red Veil box, it just wasn't well received.
As for Guilang - the combi rifle one is one fo the few old sculpts which still stand up to the current batch. ut I got bored of waiting for another sculpt, so I have a .... I don't know, Heckler I think, in a box as a stand in. I don't play Nomads, but it's coat and plain faceplate reminded me of the Guilang.
If we're wish listing...
300 pts of 100% new Shasvastii...
Including a Spinx in the Box... because this is wish listing
And I hope that when they update the army they give the Sphinx second weapon option besides just the Spitfire... what a fantastic unit it is never let me down ever... All three times I played with it...
6/6 On a Size 6- BS 14 Climbing Plus MultiTerrain TO camo unit... did I Mention Twin Heavy Flamers and An Explosion Close Combat Weapon (Anti material=Jobs Done) on a 4 ft being able to move 1 ft for 1 order to almost Anywhere is in incredible advantage... and being able to hidden deploy said unit please let me get Duo!
But seriously I think the revamp of Shasvastii is all I'm looking forward to...
.Mikes. wrote: We got a new Daofei in the Beyond red Veil box, it just wasn't well received.
Did we? I own that box, but haven't properly looked at what's in it.
edit: Looks fine from here, other than the tactical masonry. Don't see what the problem would be. And a Guilang, too. That would explain why the old multi-rifle one is still on sale but not the sniper.
For the Invincible Army, I take it Zuyongs are the basic infantry? If there's any new ones, I wonder what size they'll be?
5deadly wrote: If we're wish listing...
300 pts of 100% new Shasvastii...
Including a Spinx in the Box... because this is wish listing
And I hope that when they update the army they give the Sphinx second weapon option besides just the Spitfire... what a fantastic unit it is never let me down ever... All three times I played with it...
6/6 On a Size 6- BS 14 Climbing Plus MultiTerrain TO camo unit... did I Mention Twin Heavy Flamers and An Explosion Close Combat Weapon (Anti material=Jobs Done) on a 4 ft being able to move 1 ft for 1 order to almost Anywhere is in incredible advantage... and being able to hidden deploy said unit please let me get Duo!
But seriously I think the revamp of Shasvastii is all I'm looking forward to...
IIRCCB released a list of all the Shas skus they're discontinuing, & Sphinx was not on it. I don't think they're going to resculpt it anytime soon. The model is great. The pose is ... confusing and I never liked it.
.Mikes. wrote: We got a new Daofei in the Beyond red Veil box, it just wasn't well received.
Did we? I own that box, but haven't properly looked at what's in it.
edit: Looks fine from here, other than the tactical masonry. Don't see what the problem would be. And a Guilang, too. That would explain why the old multi-rifle one is still on sale but not the sniper.
For the Invincible Army, I take it Zuyongs are the basic infantry? If there's any new ones, I wonder what size they'll be?
The pose on the Beyond Red Veil Daofei is lousy. Its lifeless and boring like far too many of CBs new releases. I wouldnt expect another daofei until Svarlheima is out.
Been waiting for a zuyong box for some time now. But I have a feeling they will be in the IA starter instead because there are only 3 profiles left that we dont have sculpts for. They could always make more profiles tho... their current choices are pretty mundane.
I like that daofei. I'd prefer both feet on the ground, but it's better than the awkwardly twisting female Domaru Butai or the Hsien with multi rifle, in any case.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I like that daofei. I'd prefer both feet on the ground, but it's better than the awkwardly twisting female Domaru Butai or the Hsien with multi rifle, in any case.
IDK why so many models get that bizarre twisted pose.
However, they often are too worried about obscruing the detail on the body of the model and we end up with a really bland pose where everything is visible.
Need more stuff like the sneaky zero.
Or the old quirky stuff like the weirdo old Nomads with lifted knees (Spektre sniper & old Mobile Brigada) and the old Haqq guys resting their rifle on the arm (Djanbazan sniper or old old Janissary AP rifle)
Far too many models coming out with utterly lifeless poses
Long rant, not a huge problem really
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wonder how may characters will get wildcard fireteam options...
.Mikes. wrote: We got a new Daofei in the Beyond red Veil box, it just wasn't well received.
Did we? I own that box, but haven't properly looked at what's in it.
edit: Looks fine from here, other than the tactical masonry. Don't see what the problem would be. And a Guilang, too. That would explain why the old multi-rifle one is still on sale but not the sniper.
I don't mind it that much either, but I understand why some don't. Also some were disappointed that the guilang was the sniper when the most popular units have the combi.
I am really surprised that more of these models we have armed with their backup weapon that have their primary on their back don't come with a couple primaries to swap out on that back slot. The recent CSU is probably the standout example for me currently, but I've run into several models lately where I've wondered.
LunarSol wrote: I am really surprised that more of these models we have armed with their backup weapon that have their primary on their back don't come with a couple primaries to swap out on that back slot. The recent CSU is probably the standout example for me currently, but I've run into several models lately where I've wondered.
Their answer is the proxy rules I think. You really shouldn’t need to buy multiples of the same SKU to play this game. Who really wants to field a force with the same mini over and over anyway?
.Mikes. wrote: We got a new Daofei in the Beyond red Veil box, it just wasn't well received.
Did we? I own that box, but haven't properly looked at what's in it.
edit: Looks fine from here, other than the tactical masonry. Don't see what the problem would be. And a Guilang, too. That would explain why the old multi-rifle one is still on sale but not the sniper.
I don't mind it that much either, but I understand why some don't. Also some were disappointed that the guilang was the sniper when the most popular units have the combi.
They’ll put it in the Svarlheima starter and make it an instant buy for most Yu Jing players
LunarSol wrote: I am really surprised that more of these models we have armed with their backup weapon that have their primary on their back don't come with a couple primaries to swap out on that back slot. The recent CSU is probably the standout example for me currently, but I've run into several models lately where I've wondered.
Their answer is the proxy rules I think. You really shouldn’t need to buy multiples of the same SKU to play this game. Who really wants to field a force with the same mini over and over anyway?
Their generous proxy rules are nice on some level, but at this point they've kinda become an excuse for CB to not release certain profiles, or not release models that can be given different weapon options.
All from a company that moans and whines about their SKU bloat, while also making pet project models that nobody asked for.
So a bit of poking around and... These may be the December releases:
rl]
-Dakini SWC Box and the Deva included to make 4 minis
-Kurgat Autocannon
-Odalisque Spitfire
-Securitate SWC box with Grenzer ( Because no one, not ever, will buy a Grenzer, blister or box)
-Zulu Cobra
Yes, I've borrowed from the Official Forums... Credit to TenNoBushi for his post.
I need to see how that hair on the Deva works out.
LunarSol wrote: I am really surprised that more of these models we have armed with their backup weapon that have their primary on their back don't come with a couple primaries to swap out on that back slot. The recent CSU is probably the standout example for me currently, but I've run into several models lately where I've wondered.
Their answer is the proxy rules I think. You really shouldn’t need to buy multiples of the same SKU to play this game. Who really wants to field a force with the same mini over and over anyway?
Their generous proxy rules are nice on some level, but at this point they've kinda become an excuse for CB to not release certain profiles, or not release models that can be given different weapon options.
All from a company that moans and whines about their SKU bloat, while also making pet project models that nobody asked for.
It's a rough balance to strike.
We want models for all the profiles. Sometimes multiples for one or two commonly used profiles. Especially for competition.
But the charm that got me into infinity was how the models were each unique and quirky. The older models had more life to them. Some were awful, those that are still for sale are amazing.
After decades of assembling thousands of GW minis in the same configuration it was refreshing to get into a game where each mini was an individual. Some derpy and lumpy, others dynamic and brilliant.
jake wrote: Is the Daikini box coming with a Deva? I hadn't heard that.
It’s speculation, nothing confirmed yet.
It would make sense wouldn't it?
Do we know if old Deva SKUs are being discontinued?
I know they're not that old, but the existing Devas are mediocre at best. Spitfire one is the only one I like.
You could really release a box of 4 devas (or redo the devabot box) on their own as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grenzer box is just inevitable.
We need boarding shotty, ML, Spitfire. You know, the profiles everyone wants
Maybe they'll put the Feuerbach securitate in that, since the combi rifle grenzer got lost and found his way into their box instead?
LunarSol wrote: I am really surprised that more of these models we have armed with their backup weapon that have their primary on their back don't come with a couple primaries to swap out on that back slot. The recent CSU is probably the standout example for me currently, but I've run into several models lately where I've wondered.
Their answer is the proxy rules I think. You really shouldn’t need to buy multiples of the same SKU to play this game. Who really wants to field a force with the same mini over and over anyway?
If I want to field a unit, I'll use the correct model or not at all. If the CSU came with weapon options, I'd buy three. As it is, since the one I want doesn't have a model I won't buy any. Apparently I'm in the minority. Proxy rules are a kludge, not a solution. I mean, if that's their attitude, I'll go one further and simply get wooden dowl cut to the right length with a photo of the mini glued to the front; cheaper, easier, and better for gameplay since the playing piece is its own silhouette marker.
Do we know if old Deva SKUs are being discontinued?
I know they're not that old, but the existing Devas are mediocre at best. Spitfire one is the only one I like
I really love the classic Deva with the combi rifle over her shoulder. She's the model that convinced me to play Aleph. But I'm not a fan of any of the other Devas. the male ones (including the new one) just look silly to me, and the other female one (with the Devabot) was such a poor pose. I like the new Team Rocket one though. I hope we get a similarly sexy male James to partner with her.
LunarSol wrote: I am really surprised that more of these models we have armed with their backup weapon that have their primary on their back don't come with a couple primaries to swap out on that back slot. The recent CSU is probably the standout example for me currently, but I've run into several models lately where I've wondered.
Their answer is the proxy rules I think. You really shouldn’t need to buy multiples of the same SKU to play this game. Who really wants to field a force with the same mini over and over anyway?
If I want to field a unit, I'll use the correct model or not at all. If the CSU came with weapon options, I'd buy three. As it is, since the one I want doesn't have a model I won't buy any. Apparently I'm in the minority. Proxy rules are a kludge, not a solution.
I mostly agree. I mean, I understand that reality of the situation, but I vastly prefer to field the correct models with the correct loadouts. or put another way, I only ever use models I like, so if a model doesn't exists for a profile it won't show up in my army (in most cases. Sometimes I come up with a conversion I like). Using a stand in is really unappealing (usually) for me and kind of defeats the purpose of playing a miniatures game (for me). I don't really expect to be able to hold my opponents to the same standard (everyone plays for different reasons), but its always disappointing to play against someone who just dumps 13 random Nomad models on the table and says "Today I'm playing Combined army. Lets see... this is a Q-Drone, and this is a Shrouded... Do you have any large bases I can borrow?"
Do we know if old Deva SKUs are being discontinued?
I know they're not that old, but the existing Devas are mediocre at best. Spitfire one is the only one I like
I really love the classic Deva with the combi rifle over her shoulder. She's the model that convinced me to play Aleph. But I'm not a fan of any of the other Devas. the male ones (including the new one) just look silly to me, and the other female one (with the Devabot) was such a poor pose. I like the new Team Rocket one though. I hope we get a similarly sexy male James to partner with her.
LunarSol wrote: I am really surprised that more of these models we have armed with their backup weapon that have their primary on their back don't come with a couple primaries to swap out on that back slot. The recent CSU is probably the standout example for me currently, but I've run into several models lately where I've wondered.
Their answer is the proxy rules I think. You really shouldn’t need to buy multiples of the same SKU to play this game. Who really wants to field a force with the same mini over and over anyway?
If I want to field a unit, I'll use the correct model or not at all. If the CSU came with weapon options, I'd buy three. As it is, since the one I want doesn't have a model I won't buy any. Apparently I'm in the minority. Proxy rules are a kludge, not a solution.
I mostly agree. I mean, I understand that reality of the situation, but I vastly prefer to field the correct models with the correct loadouts. or put another way, I only ever use models I like, so if a model doesn't exists for a profile it won't show up in my army (in most cases. Sometimes I come up with a conversion I like). Using a stand in is really unappealing (usually) for me and kind of defeats the purpose of playing a miniatures game (for me). I don't really expect to be able to hold my opponents to the same standard (everyone plays for different reasons), but its always disappointing to play against someone who just dumps 13 random Nomad models on the table and says "Today I'm playing Combined army. Lets see... this is a Q-Drone, and this is a Shrouded... Do you have any large bases I can borrow?"
Has that actually happened to you? Does this really happen out there in the infinity world?
I understand the proxy rules are purposely totally open, but you gotta be a real douche to do a wholesale substitution like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: It really hurts at competitive levels where you have to constantly ask what each model in your opponents army is.
It hurts at any level.
Even if people use correct models sometimes it’s hard.
I have a hard time with Aleph Non-Greek models. They’re all just guys/gals with a Swiss Army knife robot arm to me.
HB Farzan, Muyib, Barid all look a lot alike ... dude wearing baggy pants, flak jacket, and that same helmet carrying a gun just standing around. Especially when they’re not painted.
I know my friend can’t for the life of him tell my Nomads apart. So many can be described as: Dude with chrome dome helmet. Hellcat, Tomcat, Wildcat... it’s some sort of cat just deal with it, oh but that one is a prowler, and that’s a zero can’t you tell?!
This is why I will only ever proxy stuff if there is no model or MAYBE if I need a 2nd on a profile we will only ever get one model for.
Has that actually happened to you? Does this really happen out there in the infinity world?
I understand the proxy rules are purposely totally open, but you gotta be a real douche to do a wholesale substitution like that.
Yeah. when I was still running events we had two different guys who would regularly show up with lists and either a random selection of models or just ask people if they could borrow whatever extra models they had. One of them was a pretty accommodating person and would go out of his way to try to make sure you knew what he was taking. The other played a 20+ order Ariadna list and liked to take advantage of the confusion. The Ariadna guy was especially frustrating because he owned all the models he needed, he just didn't bother using them. Or worse, he would use them but as proxies for other things. Like "This grunt is a Foxtrot, and this Minuteman is a Grunt and this Foxtrot is also a Grunt and this other grunt is a Minuteman." He'd really take advantage of that to confuse people. Eventually no one liked playing with him.
Team Rocket. I was trying to remember the pop culture reference. Gracias for the reminder, Jake.
I'd be fairly certain that the Deva will be in the Dakini box, to bring it up to 4 minis. I'd get the box. It plus the Beyond Coldfront and the new ALEPH starter makes for a nice foundation for the OSS.
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Confirmed for Ramah is Ghulam, Naffatûn, Khawarijs, Zhayedan, Maghariba, Tuaregs, Tarik, Saladin I think, Al Fasid, Hakim. Another new unit was mentioned, I’ll have to find the name.
Actually I think the new unit named was for the Khanate sectorial. I can’t find it now.
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Confirmed for Ramah is Ghulam, Naffatûn, Khawarijs, Zhayedan, Maghariba, Tuaregs, Tarik, Saladin I think, Al Fasid, Hakim. Another new unit was mentioned, I’ll have to find the name.
Worth mentioning that there was a second potential Sectorial for Haqqislam called the Khanate which had Halqa, Kum bikers, etc.
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Confirmed for Ramah is Ghulam, Naffatûn, Khawarijs, Zhayedan, Maghariba, Tuaregs, Tarik, Saladin I think, Al Fasid, Hakim. Another new unit was mentioned, I’ll have to find the name.
Worth mentioning that there was a second potential Sectorial for Haqqislam called the Khanate which had Halqa, Kum bikers, etc.
Wonder if they'll ever get another TAG other than mercs
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Confirmed for Ramah is Ghulam, Naffatûn, Khawarijs, Zhayedan, Maghariba, Tuaregs, Tarik, Saladin I think, Al Fasid, Hakim. Another new unit was mentioned, I’ll have to find the name.
Worth mentioning that there was a second potential Sectorial for Haqqislam called the Khanate which had Halqa, Kum bikers, etc.
Dzanbajans too right?
Always been one of my favorite profiles, but the new-ish box isn't their best work sadly.
Wonder if they'll ever get another TAG other than mercs
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Haqq has been getting attention. It has been quiet, low-key attention, which is just fine. Haqq players are not the whiny, needy lot that Pan-O or YJ players are. New remotes, new support box, the Hakims, new Asawira, this new Odalisque. A few small profile updates and some new equipment --the medjectors on the Hakims.
I think that Haqq, at least vanilla and QK are in a pretty good place. When the RTF releases-- March at Adepticon I'm guessing-- then things will only get better.
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Haqq has been getting attention. It has been quiet, low-key attention, which is just fine. Haqq players are not the whiny, needy lot that Pan-O or YJ players are. New remotes, new support box, the Hakims, new Asawira, this new Odalisque. A few small profile updates and some new equipment --the medjectors on the Hakims.
I think that Haqq, at least vanilla and QK are in a pretty good place. When the RTF releases-- March at Adepticon I'm guessing-- then things will only get better.
See, to me the only decent release in that lot was the Hakim.
And like so many Haqq units, they're vanilla only.
Next year we have IA & Shas for sure.
Hopefully Ramah finally comes too. Haqq sorely needs attention.
Do we know which profiles would go in Ramah?
Haqq has SO MANY profiles that are vanilla only; seems to me like they wouldnt need to invent that many new units to get it done.
That said, many of those units could use new sculpts and revised profiles.
Haqq has been getting attention. It has been quiet, low-key attention, which is just fine. Haqq players are not the whiny, needy lot that Pan-O or YJ players are. New remotes, new support box, the Hakims, new Asawira, this new Odalisque. A few small profile updates and some new equipment --the medjectors on the Hakims.
I think that Haqq, at least vanilla and QK are in a pretty good place. When the RTF releases-- March at Adepticon I'm guessing-- then things will only get better.
See, to me the only decent release in that lot was the Hakim.
And like so many Haqq units, they're vanilla only.
Only until Ramah is out, probably earlyish next year.
.Mikes. wrote: Has anyone seen any indication that we're going to see a Biketessa sculpt?
that's Moto Montessa, or Motessa. No idea, but heaven help me, I think I want the mini, as much as I find the notion of a biker-knight disagreeable, in theory anyway. Looking at its profile... yes, very playable in ASA. I expect the mini to be very nice. I've said that somewhere already. meh.
You're welcome to argue with me about the need for a "Repeater" Securitate with Combi Rifle--but it very much looks like this Boarding Shotgun model does have it present on her back near her neck. Pause the video at 0:13 and you can see what I'm thinking is the Repeater.
The Hollow Man Hacker wasn't present in the box and since it only includes a TinBot A I figured they were holding it back for a blister or some kind of "Beyond" styled pack release.
LunarSol wrote: In the preview the BSG model was listed as the Repeater model. I actually just noticed she has a BSG for the first time when you mentioned it.
Yep--and when we first saw the preview I brought this same subject up here and elsewhere. Same with the Hollow Man Hacker profile.
So, the Securiate SWC box includes a normie Securuate w/ shotgun and a normie Grenzer but not a sniper or feuerbach? That's kind of awful since there's so many profiles for each unit to do their own full box. Makes this set really underwhelming even though the figs look really good
The normie grenzer is a good pick, as the combi (sensor) grenzer is the most used grenzer for the mixed link, Id rather either the hacker was dropped for the feurbach or sniper. But I think really the Tunguska starter should have been combi-combi-boarding shotgun securitate ( or combi-sniper-shotgun) then have SWC pack as grenzer-hacker-hmg-feur/sniper. Cause atm there are 3 combi securitate when we really only needed 2. though a solo pack securitate with 2 arms would be good solution for sniper/feurbach (even though CB rarely do arm swaps)
Fluff wise I could see the hollow man hacker technically not have any hacking gear physically on him considering what they are
Still irked about the Grenzer in there rather than a box but c'est la vie.
Securitate HMG & Feuerbach would be a blister every nomad player will buy.
I’m slightly irritated, but not concerned. Feuerbach is a rare enough gun to make it worth the purchase.
It could have been in Galician, with Catalan subtitles.
Team Rocket Deva, ftw! The new Oda nice too. Overall, a good month. Will be adding the dakini/Deva box to my ALEPH to get list. The Oda is must get too.
Finally, a new trauma doc. I do hope CB has a new machinist too. Are the palbots up for resculpt? I don't like the current ones. They did resculpt the nasmats, so...
Having just finally painted the old trauma doc - boo! When do we get specific Order Sergeant Foward Observers! Come on, CB, MO haven't had any love for literally hours.
Red Harvest wrote: Are the palbots up for resculpt? I don't like the current ones. They did resculpt the nasmats, so...
Since they recently resculpted the Yu Jing engineer/doctor and released with the old yaozao so I doubt it...but in saying that though you never really know. Flipping a coin would be your best bet to see whether they do or not
Gotta love the golf-announcer voices during the tourney, too.
Sooooo Third Offensive book has been in lots of hands for a couple of days, and not a peep from anyone. Not a single bit of lowdown on the units not yet detailed... What gives, guys?
Savnock wrote: Gotta love the golf-announcer voices during the tourney, too.
Sooooo Third Offensive book has been in lots of hands for a couple of days, and not a peep from anyone. Not a single bit of lowdown on the units not yet detailed... What gives, guys?
Savnock wrote: Whaaaaat? Not even a book-end appendix? Damn.
Yeah, same as Uprising and pretty much all the books going forward. There is no reason to put Profiles in the books as ARMY is updated quicker and far too frequently that the book would be outdated by the time you get it.
There are rules in there though. CB has gone out of their way to also try and stop... deter, people from spoiling anything with pics.
Savnock wrote: Whaaaaat? Not even a book-end appendix? Damn.
Yeah, same as Uprising and pretty much all the books going forward. There is no reason to put Profiles in the books as ARMY is updated quicker and far too frequently that the book would be outdated by the time you get it.
There are rules in there though. CB has gone out of their way to also try and stop... deter, people from spoiling anything with pics.
Shame they don't bother to drop the price on the books significantly to reflect the removal of content.
Lack of profiles - even if it's a logical decision due to updates in army - is the reason I didn't get one, but that's a purely personal choice on my part.
I believe Army is being updated on the 30th, so still another week.
LunarSol wrote: I have honestly never gotten anything useful out of the profiles section of an Infinity book.
The army lists? The profiles?
Yeah you can get the same thing from Army or the PDFs, but those don't include the lore--which many people love to argue "informs" the way the profiles are built.
LunarSol wrote: I have honestly never gotten anything useful out of the profiles section of an Infinity book.
The army lists? The profiles?
Yeah you can get the same thing from Army or the PDFs, but those don't include the lore--which many people love to argue "informs" the way the profiles are built.
Army lists and profiles, like you say, are online anyway. I get the books for the lore, and haven’t even looked at profiles in them. Nothing’s changed for me, and I wager a lot of people buying the books.
Shame they don't bother to drop the price on the books significantly to reflect the removal of content.
There's no removal of content. That content was never planned to be in the books, and was never announced as being in the books. That content is also being given to you for free, just like it always has been in the past.
Shame they don't bother to drop the price on the books significantly to reflect the removal of content.
There's no removal of content. That content was never planned to be in the books, and was never announced as being in the books. That content is also being given to you for free, just like it always has been in the past.
He’s just complaining for the sake of complaining. The profiles and new rules are all available online.
This isn’t some cheat. CB has always made all the rules and profiles freely available. It’s plainly outmoded to include them in s book, especially since they're obsolete when the first FAQ drops.
Don’t get me wrong, I like having the core book to reference and read at length. But one off rule lookups, oddball interactions, or new levels of existing skills are better handled with PDFs and the wiki.
Shame they don't bother to drop the price on the books significantly to reflect the removal of content.
There's no removal of content. That content was never planned to be in the books, and was never announced as being in the books. That content is also being given to you for free, just like it always has been in the past.
And yet the books are still sitting at $47.99 MSRP(Uprising) and $53.99 MSRP(Third Offensive) compared to Human Sphere and N3's $69.99 MSRP.
Yes, they all are effectively cheaper since discounted purchases are a thing--but you really think the lack of a second book shouldn't be reflected more in the pricing?
He’s just complaining for the sake of complaining. The profiles and new rules are all available online.
This isn’t some cheat. CB has always made all the rules and profiles freely available. It’s plainly outmoded to include them in s book, especially since they're obsolete when the first FAQ drops.
Because generally there's some massive glaring issue that has to be resolved that could have been caught by proofreading.
I'm "complaining" because the prices don't reflect the content. Uprising is not a $47.99 book and I highly doubt that Third Offensive will be worth the $53.99.
Don’t get me wrong, I like having the core book to reference and read at length. But one off rule lookups, oddball interactions, or new levels of existing skills are better handled with PDFs and the wiki.
That's your opinion. You've been told multiple times that some people would prefer to have print versions specifically to avoid having to keep a tablet around or to avoid using their data plans up just to play a game.
Shame they don't bother to drop the price on the books significantly to reflect the removal of content.
There's no removal of content. That content was never planned to be in the books, and was never announced as being in the books. That content is also being given to you for free, just like it always has been in the past.
And yet the books are still sitting at $47.99 MSRP(Uprising) and $53.99 MSRP(Third Offensive) compared to Human Sphere and N3's $69.99 MSRP.
Yes, they all are effectively cheaper since discounted purchases are a thing--but you really think the lack of a second book shouldn't be reflected more in the pricing?
He’s just complaining for the sake of complaining. The profiles and new rules are all available online.
This isn’t some cheat. CB has always made all the rules and profiles freely available. It’s plainly outmoded to include them in s book, especially since they're obsolete when the first FAQ drops.
Because generally there's some massive glaring issue that has to be resolved that could have been caught by proofreading.
I'm "complaining" because the prices don't reflect the content. Uprising is not a $47.99 book and I highly doubt that Third Offensive will be worth the $53.99.
Don’t get me wrong, I like having the core book to reference and read at length. But one off rule lookups, oddball interactions, or new levels of existing skills are better handled with PDFs and the wiki.
That's your opinion. You've been told multiple times that some people would prefer to have print versions specifically to avoid having to keep a tablet around or to avoid using their data plans up just to play a game.
Kanluwen wrote:
Shame they don't bother to drop the price on the books significantly to reflect the removal of content.
Except they still spend time on the profikes that come with the book and it doesn't add much to the anyway.
Apparently it drops $22 for Uprising and $16 for Third Offensive.
Because those are the price differences between those profile-less books and the N3 and HS books.
People who refuse to use anything but Print rules from a book that will certainly need revisions? I doubt they really exist.
Using up your data plan? Really? It’s an app on my phone or a simple webpage, not streaming GoT.
The online rules content is a feature, not a bug. Infinity has always been that way.
Profiles in all the current edition books are all obsolete already now. The game is built to be played with the digital tools.
Anybody who expects to only pull rules and profiles from books needs to join this century.
If you want fluff, you pay for some dead tree. If you don’t like the price, don’t buy it?
I don’t see the complaint here, except that I think you really just don’t like the game.
Mysterio wrote: Can you guys maybe start using the IGNORE feature on each other?
Or, if you can't, just start ignoring certain posts?
Or, if you can't do that, maybe wander on down the Infinity sub-forum for a lot of this crap?
Would be nice if this thread had a lot less of that, and more...news and rumors.
This thread has never been a great source of infinity news.
Enough Infinity reveals drop on FB groups & YouTube channels now that I can find most things there.
The idle speculation (I supposed they could be called rumors) is amusing here.
The normal banter is helpful to mull over new releases & directions the game is going in. Flame wars are an inevitable side product of that discourse.
Yeah, that's not actually a good enough reason to be part of a small, select group that routinely craps up this thread.
There really is a whole other sub-forum here where you can...amuse yourself, with the side benefit that this thread can actually be for news, rumors and sure, why not, idle speculation on said news and rumors, and not that...other stuff.
Red Harvest wrote: Well... any news about the 3rd offensive book? Has anyone received a copy yet? I hear the Army Builder is to be updated on the 30th.
I've heard sometime between the 25th and the 30th.
Red Harvest wrote: Well... any news about the 3rd offensive book? Has anyone received a copy yet? I hear the Army Builder is to be updated on the 30th.
No real news stateside since it's going to be awhile most likely for it to show up here.
Mostly it's WarCors who have them and CB regularly deletes posts that concern fluff. Army Builder update is supposed to be the 30th.
I've heard nothing, and I don't often wander over to the Official Site.
Do we already know everything that's going to be in 3RD-O?
Yes.
This is not just a book consisting purely of background information on the events taking place on Paradiso, but it also unlocks two new sectorials, adding the Tartary Army Corps (Ariadna) and Operations Subsection (Aleph), that were released in Operation Coldfront, but also the indomitable, Invincible Army (Yu Jing) and the highly specialized Varuna Intervention Division (PanOceania), two brand new sectorials greatly anticipated by the community.
It will also include some modifications to the rules and the profiles in a few sectorials - such as the Morat Aggression Force (Combined Army), Military Orders (PanOceania), and the Shock Army of Acontecimento (PanOceania), as well as new equipment.
Kanluwen wrote: Very disappointed by the Orc "specialty" profiles for VIRD.
It addresses issues present with Orcs in NCA and SAA, but of course it's Sectorial specific.
Other than fireteam options & multi-terrain (not a big deal) what's the difference?
You're paying a couple extra points on the varuna profiles for terrain abilities you wont be using all that often.
I thought IA was officially live with this update?
Isnt it in 3rd offensive?
The new profiles are available in vanilla Yu Jing.
Guess we have to wait and see when it comes online...
Kanluwen wrote: Very disappointed by the Orc "specialty" profiles for VIRD.
It addresses issues present with Orcs in NCA and SAA, but of course it's Sectorial specific.
Other than fireteam options & multi-terrain (not a big deal) what's the difference?
You're paying a couple extra points on the varuna profiles for terrain abilities you wont be using all that often.
Seriously?
AVA5 for one thing.
Special Fireteam: Core with 3 Fusiliers and 2 Orcs(Varuna)--and Wildcard on Patsy Garnet and Kamau.
Multi-Terrain Jungle and Aquatic might not seem like a huge deal to you, but actually read their profiles. There's also Stealth present.
Spoiler:
REQUIREMENTS
The user of this Special Skill must be in his Active Turn.
EFFECTS
Allows the user to make Cautious Movements inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.
A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.
However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO.
If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state.
They get all of those benefits for a single point difference.
And hit Ctrl+F5 if you can't see the Invincible Army. You need to force a refresh.
I thought IA was officially live with this update?
Isnt it in 3rd offensive?
The new profiles are available in vanilla Yu Jing.
Guess we have to wait and see when it comes online...
Invincible Army is on my screen, Have you tried Crtl+F5?
It has to show up at some point.
AVA 4 on Yan Huos. So I need to paint another two.
Really liking the look of IA, just neeed to get my head around the force list.
I'm in two minds about MO. Father Knights definately more usable now with natural Duo, although the FO lost Nimbus Grenades for some reason, plus the Seraph has a HMG profile and the Spitfire profile's Aux Bot has Superjump too now (boingy boingu boingy).
But no LI LT option, Spec OSs still aren't linkable, and while they got some buffs the reson to take Teutons over other Knights remins "I just like them, leave me alone".
Kanluwen wrote: Very disappointed by the Orc "specialty" profiles for VIRD.
It addresses issues present with Orcs in NCA and SAA, but of course it's Sectorial specific.
Other than fireteam options & multi-terrain (not a big deal) what's the difference?
You're paying a couple extra points on the varuna profiles for terrain abilities you wont be using all that often.
Seriously?
AVA5 for one thing.
Special Fireteam: Core with 3 Fusiliers and 2 Orcs(Varuna)--and Wildcard on Patsy Garnet and Kamau.
Multi-Terrain Jungle and Aquatic might not seem like a huge deal to you, but actually read their profiles. There's also Stealth present.
Spoiler:
REQUIREMENTS
The user of this Special Skill must be in his Active Turn.
EFFECTS
Allows the user to make Cautious Movements inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.
A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.
However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO.
If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state.
They get all of those benefits for a single point difference.
And hit Ctrl+F5 if you can't see the Invincible Army. You need to force a refresh.
The Varuna Orcs are so juicy!
I am liking the idea of a Paramedic Knight of Montesa. Who doesn't like a paramedic with 8-4 MOV, has armor 4, CH: Mimetism and religious troop?
Kanluwen wrote: Very disappointed by the Orc "specialty" profiles for VIRD.
It addresses issues present with Orcs in NCA and SAA, but of course it's Sectorial specific.
Other than fireteam options & multi-terrain (not a big deal) what's the difference?
You're paying a couple extra points on the varuna profiles for terrain abilities you wont be using all that often.
Seriously?
AVA5 for one thing.
Special Fireteam: Core with 3 Fusiliers and 2 Orcs(Varuna)--and Wildcard on Patsy Garnet and Kamau.
Multi-Terrain Jungle and Aquatic might not seem like a huge deal to you, but actually read their profiles. There's also Stealth present.
Spoiler:
REQUIREMENTS
The user of this Special Skill must be in his Active Turn.
EFFECTS
Allows the user to make Cautious Movements inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.
A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.
However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO.
If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state.
They get all of those benefits for a single point difference.
And hit Ctrl+F5 if you can't see the Invincible Army. You need to force a refresh.
Obviously they have fireteam options to synergize with the sectorial and higher AVA.
They’re the signature unit for Varuna I would expect them to have better options in that sectorial. Heck, Orcs are the only standard HI choice for all of Varuna.
Nothing to get bent out of shape over for NCA & SAA folks; they already have plenty of other interesting combinations among their HI.
I thought IA was officially live with this update?
Isnt it in 3rd offensive?
The new profiles are available in vanilla Yu Jing.
Guess we have to wait and see when it comes online...
Invincible Army is on my screen, Have you tried Crtl+F5?
It has to show up at some point.
It’s working now.
I was at work earlier and only had a few minutes to take a peek.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
.Mikes. wrote: AVA 4 on Yan Huos. So I need to paint another two.
Really liking the look of IA, just neeed to get my head around the force list.
I'm in two minds about MO. Father Knights definately more usable now with natural Duo, although the FO lost Nimbus Grenades for some reason, plus the Seraph has a HMG profile and the Spitfire profile's Aux Bot has Superjump too now (boingy boingu boingy).
But no LI LT option, Spec OSs still aren't linkable, and while they got some buffs the reson to take Teutons over other Knights remins "I just like them, leave me alone".
It’s really a shame that the Seraph has such a lame pose; it’s a great model.
O-yoroi has a similarly baffling pose.
I expected more hacking defenses for IA. Even HI heavy PanO sectorials dont rely on their HI this much.
Between hackers and many new profiles getting EM weapons, IA is going to have a hard time keeping their guys from becoming a petrified forest.
It probably evens out in the end... even if its a scary thought bringing that many hackable models.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: I expected more hacking defenses for IA. Even HI heavy PanO sectorials dont rely on their HI this much.
Between hackers and many new profiles getting EM weapons, IA is going to have a hard time keeping their guys from becoming a petrified forest.
It probably evens out in the end... even if its a scary thought bringing that many hackable models.
We do have several offensive hackers though, including Hac Tao with TO Camo and KHD. I think the intention is full offense, and overwhelming your opponent.
Kanluwen wrote: There's also Terracotta Soldiers with Tinbots.
Yeah, Deflector L2. Also available on Tai Sheng, the terracotta leader.
Really excited to see a box set come out for Kuangshi, my favourite models in the game.
There already is a Kuang Shi box?
Mebbe he meant Zuyong? The HMG guy has been very lonely for some time now.
Gotta be that or Shang Ji. The old one is still a great model even tho he’s tiny and his gun is HUGE.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: I expected more hacking defenses for IA. Even HI heavy PanO sectorials dont rely on their HI this much.
Between hackers and many new profiles getting EM weapons, IA is going to have a hard time keeping their guys from becoming a petrified forest.
It probably evens out in the end... even if its a scary thought bringing that many hackable models.
We do have several offensive hackers though, including Hac Tao with TO Camo and KHD. I think the intention is full offense, and overwhelming your opponent.
Bring two engineers though.
They can definitely bring the pain. It will be nice to play Yu Jing without the CC tax on so many units that rarely get that close.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Side note, a new Hac Tao ML would be really nice. They could double it up with BS or multi rifle in a blister.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: I expected more hacking defenses for IA. Even HI heavy PanO sectorials dont rely on their HI this much.
Between hackers and many new profiles getting EM weapons, IA is going to have a hard time keeping their guys from becoming a petrified forest.
It probably evens out in the end... even if its a scary thought bringing that many hackable models.
In general, the stuff that is vulnerable is able to sit behind a L2 Deflector and a KHD Haidao. The stuff that doesn't get that luxury is either resilient enough to hacking that it won't give much of a care as a direct threat, or it will prove to be too vulnerable and get left off to the side. I think with a Haidao around, things like the Zencha, Hulang, Mowang, and Hac Tao will probably be fine due to a combo of marker states, stealth, and good BTS. The Liu Xing is really the weak link here since it isn't really rocking any special protection, and its skillset wants you to drop in to the viper's den. But even then, I think Explode LX is genrally considered to be a red herring on them at this point, so I expect most folks to just run them from mid-field as a barebones AD trooper if they run 'em at all.
Overall though, the protection afforded to links is pretty strong thanks to a combo of good Deflector profiles that you actively want in your links alongside a cheap, relatively tough stripped-down HI KHD.
And if you really need to, the Daoying LT can use its lieutenant order to sprinkle Fairy Dust and then use its second lieutenant order to re-camo. If you're running a list without NCO then this is a pretty solid strat (especially if you're hiding a Haidao CoC somewhere).
They basically hit all the points I'd want to see in an HI defensive suite and they can mix and match strats pretty easily, especially that 26 point KHD Haidao. I can't see not including those in most of my Zuyong links just because they're so flexible (hell, even on their own they're basically a budget Vet Kazak that can go in to a marker state, so they even have uses in vanilla).
It is an interesting and bold design decision that allowed a plethora of highly skilled and equipped HI to exist in point costs that make a HI or mostly HI list playable, at least in theory.
CB has stated that they eagerly wait the feedback from actual playing experience and data from Infinity army and actual tournaments about this design.
On the discussion I am intrigued on how many make Daoying hacker their LT I always select the multi sniper LT.
Grey Templar wrote: What’s interesting is the amount of new 1 wound+NWI heavy infantry.
I've gotten used to it, but because so much of the list was created at the beginning of N3, you get this weird split between new and old units. The only new "traditional" HI was the Mowang, everything else has a suit stripped down to even less than what the Zuyong has, and the Zuyong are supposed to be the most cut-down of them all.
So you end up with this weird juxtaposition of the elite specialists of the Invincible Army wearing these cheap knock-off suits while the mainline HI are running full-on powered armour. I mean, you get used to it... but you can't help but wonder why the Zuyong didn't get the slimmed down redesign like the Haidao did. If nothing else, flipping the script would have freed them up to possibly make more of the elite IA stuff 2-wounders so that you had a clearer divide between the mass-production suits and the more specialized ones.
I think it also would have helped if some of the stats had been unified. The Zencha, Liu Xing, Haidao, and Hulang are all rocking different ARM/BTS and immunity combos. Given that militaries tend to like redundancy, it seems weird that all the specialist regiments would be rocking different suits instead of similar variants of the same.
It's mostly a design and aesthetics thing, but it definitely takes me out of it when building lists because sometimes (like the Haidao) it feels really gamey. I look at the stripped-down stats and it doesn't look like the stats were designed to fit the unit, but rather a unit was created to fill out the stats and hit a particular point cost. Which only makes no redesign on things like the Zuyong feel weirder. Hell, the Haidao looks like a post I made years back discussing avenues to make the Zuyong more like a massed line trooper while still retaining HI features.
If nothing else, it feels like a great many of 2nd Edition's "light" HI designs (back when 4-4 MOV was novel on HI) could move to this stripped down form... but then, I don't think Riot Grrrls need more help being cheap either.
I think the only unit it still feels kind of egregious on is the Zencha, because it has no Shock Immunity or Bio-Immunity, so despite the ARM, it goes down like any NWILI unit to a shock attack, which feels wrong when you're still hackable. Part of me kind of wishes they had just made it a proper Skirmisher with a mechanical body like the Daoying to explain the NWI on it. Because it doesn't really gain anything from being HI and doesn't appear to be getting a discount for being hackable and vulnerable to E/M attack. But at least the combo of an SMG and marker state make the FO still good despite the misgivings I have with its actual design.
AT STATE EMPIRE ARMY R&D LAB
The Brass: So what do you have for my new, glorious Invincible Army?
Engineer: So this is our new Zuyong suit. We've streamlined the old bird-beak a bit for faster production. Used less robust actuators with a bit faster response time, and cut some of the armour down to be replaced with ballistic cloth coverings. Functions 99% as well as our traditional suits but comes in at half the cost. We can churn these out no problem.
The Brass: Excellent, but what about the specialist regiments?
Engineer: Oh the Shang Ji uses a bunch of designer parts...
The Brass: Good, and that makes it more effective?
Engineer: Well, it certainly makes it look nice!
The Brass: How much does it cost?
Engineer: Let me show you over to the Mowang! We yoinked this from Japanese R&D, slapped a mimetic coating on and armed it to the teeth!
The Brass: Yes, yes that sounds great but the Shan-
Engineer: Alright, next we've got an early production model of the Yan Huo suit! It has built-in stabilizers that allow it to carry TAG-scale weapons. Pretty neat huh?
The Brass: Yes, I suppose. What about the designs for the newest regiments? The Zencha?
*Engineer looks nervous* Engineer: Uh, yeah, this way sir.
The Brass: Is it behind this mannequin dressed in a garbage bag?
Engineer: Oh no, that's the "enhanced" camo system. This is the Zencha's suit!
The Brass: Did you just make air quotes?
Engineer: You see, by wrapping duct-tape and garbage bags around a cheap knock-off Ariadna exo-frame, we've been able to produce enough of these babies to fill the warehouse!
The Brass: But, they're a small, elite group. We don't need that many.
*Engineer looks concerned* Engineer: Well, let's show you to the next one. We've formulated this specifically for the new Haidao group.
*leads inspector over to a mannequin dressed in cardboard boxes with the words "armor" scrawled on them and beams widely*
.Mikes. wrote: We'll definately see a Zuyong box. And I agree, the two recent Zuyong models are awesome.
Considering Sun Tze has a similar suit of armor to Zuyongs, I REALLY expected him to be in this list so he could link with them.
Gotta say I’m disappointed he isn’t included in this sectorial.
.Mikes. wrote: We'll definately see a Zuyong box. And I agree, the two recent Zuyong models are awesome.
Considering Sun Tze has a similar suit of armor to Zuyongs, I REALLY expected him to be in this list so he could link with them.
Gotta say I’m disappointed he isn’t included in this sectorial.
It is a very strange choice not to include him. What sectorial would he possibly go in if not IA?
Not including Joan in Military Orders would be just as strange.
.Mikes. wrote: We'll definately see a Zuyong box. And I agree, the two recent Zuyong models are awesome.
Considering Sun Tze has a similar suit of armor to Zuyongs, I REALLY expected him to be in this list so he could link with them.
Gotta say I’m disappointed he isn’t included in this sectorial.
It is a very strange choice not to include him. What sectorial would he possibly go in if not IA?
Not including Joan in Military Orders would be just as strange.
Sure, but he always kinda felt odd there. He's Yu Jing's tactical genius and supreme commander. Why is he slinking around with the military police and not leading the Invincible Army to glory?
It is the other way around really, the Imperial Secret Service, who are not really military police, but militarised police plus secret services, do not allow him to stick around with anybody else.
.Mikes. wrote: We'll definately see a Zuyong box. And I agree, the two recent Zuyong models are awesome.
Considering Sun Tze has a similar suit of armor to Zuyongs, I REALLY expected him to be in this list so he could link with them.
Gotta say I’m disappointed he isn’t included in this sectorial.
Huh, I didn't even realise that, nice spot.
Also, it's been confirmed that the hacker and MSV Spitfire order sergeants can't link. Which in an era where seemingly everything else can makes zero sense.
PsychoticStorm wrote: It is the other way around really, the Imperial Secret Service, who are not really military police, but militarised police plus secret services, do not allow him to stick around with anybody else.
Probably for protection/ secret services reasons.
Well thats what I meant when I said "Military Police". I mean it in the Gestapo/Secret Police/KGB/etc... way. Not "Members of the military who act as Cops for the Military personnel".
It still doesn't explain his lack of presence in IA. He is the best general Yu Jing has. He should be leading the army. If he needs some ISS protection, make Crane agents AVA1-2 in IA and let them form a special fireteam Haris with him.
Otherwise, it just makes Yu Jing look stupid for wasting their god-tier general kicking down doors and checking papers.
Also, not fully under Imperial control, being an ALEPH re- creation and all that; thus he need monitoring . He and Saladin are getting up to something together too, or so the background hints.
ImAGeek wrote: Invincible Army Starter (Zuyong Missile Launcher, Zuyong combi, Zuyong boarding shotgun, Liu Xing hacker, Daoying sniper and Haidao combi)
I mean, on the one hand, yay starter!
On the other hand those are a lot of profiles that aren't really great within the sectorial. The Zuyong combi is needed, the Daoying MSR is great, and even if I would have preferred the KHD Haidao I don't mind the one with access to CoC. But the Liu Xing hacker is generally pants, and the two other Zuyong profiles are not ones you're likely to see in your average Zuyong link due to how much the sectorial relies on order shenanigans.
So expect a lot of proxying even after the starter drops. Hopefully the models are at least nice looking.
The Boarding Shotgun was a strange choice given that it is only on 1 profile out of 14. Multi-rifle would have made more sense as it could more easily stand in as a Combi. The Missile Launcher would also be more fitting as an HMG.
But hopefully the eventual box set will fix that. With luck it will be 2 Combi-rifles, HMG, and Multi-rifle.
Once you get some Invincible models you'll be able to practice more and get those above that table top standard light airbrush technique you got going on
5deadly wrote: Once you get some Invincible models you'll be able to practice more and get those above that table top standard light airbrush technique you got going on
5deadly wrote: Once you get some Invincible models you'll be able to practice more and get those above that table top standard light airbrush technique you got going on
Are you serious? Why are you this rude?
I'm not particularly concerned with being polite when calling people out. When I think they're being full of gak.
Painting your models is not being full of gak (unless you're trying to game a 3 colour minimum). You're just being a dick here (@5deadly).
I don't agree that those are tanletop standard (I paint to tabletop standard, so I would know), but there is also nothing wrong with painting to a tabletop standard. Miniatures for gaming do not have to be painted to top display quality for someone to be proud of their work. Painted to whatever level one can or wants to participate in that part of the hobby is better than grey (or gaming a 3 colour minimum). It should be encouraged, not badmouthed by an donkey-cave like you.
@mastiff nice work.
I'm not saying your post is of the quailty I'm defending in my rant, just wanted to make that point.
Folks, smoke a blunt, drink a little more, get laid...
Y’all need to relax. Leave the battles on the tabletop. This is such an angsty thread, I thought pics would be the least likely content to start another fight. Ha!
So the ALEPH RPG supplment has gone out to the KSer backers and there's a few more Reproductions added to the fluff:
Einstein
Mark Twain
Tchaikovsky
and the first confirmed Fictional person Sherlock Holmes who's gone rogue due to the various governments relying too much on him to solve all their crimes instead of just doing the work themselves so he left
Pretty sure none of those will ever make it into either game but the fictional Reproduction opens up a lot of possibilities for CB.
5deadly wrote: Once you get some Invincible models you'll be able to practice more and get those above that table top standard light airbrush technique you got going on
Are you serious? Why are you this rude?
I'm not particularly concerned with being polite when calling people out. When I think they're being full of gak.
Painting your models is not being full of gak (unless you're trying to game a 3 colour minimum). You're just being a dick here (@5deadly).
I don't agree that those are tanletop standard (I paint to tabletop standard, so I would know), but there is also nothing wrong with painting to a tabletop standard. Miniatures for gaming do not have to be painted to top display quality for someone to be proud of their work. Painted to whatever level one can or wants to participate in that part of the hobby is better than grey (or gaming a 3 colour minimum). It should be encouraged, not badmouthed by an donkey-cave like you.
@mastiff nice work.
I'm not saying your post is of the quailty I'm defending in my rant, just wanted to make that point.
LunarSol wrote: Realistically the premise of the reproductions is that they're all "fictional".
Except that three out of the four mentioned were real people. Other than that, yeah.
They are "fictional" in the sense that they aren't actually the same people. Joan isn't the actual Jeanne De Arc from the Middle Ages. She is an artificially created personality based on fictionalized and romanticized accounts of how Jeanne De Arc was. But Jeanne was still a real person at some point. Sherlock Holmes is the first Recreation that isn't based on a real person.
But given that very little exists historically to document what most of these people were actually like, in practical terms there really isn't any difference between recreating a historical person and a completely fictional one.
Sherlock Holmes is the first Recreation that isn't based on a real person.
Except for Achilles, Patroclus and Penthesilea you mean? All the Greeks are pretty much established to have some basis in reality (like there was a Trojan War) but Homer is pretty much entirely fictional
Sherlock Holmes is the first Recreation that isn't based on a real person.
Except for Achilles, Patroclus and Penthesilea you mean? All the Greeks are pretty much established to have some basis in reality (like there was a Trojan War) but Homer is pretty much entirely fictional
Homer’s account was not entirely fictional. The Trojan War did happen. Not like he wrote it, but it was based on real events and most likely real people.
There was a Trojan war. Which involved people names Achilles, Patrocles, Ajax, etc... The events Homer describes probably do not resemble what actually happened, but the people and the place existed and a war was fought there.
The people Homer wrote about are probably the only real parts of his story
Sherlock Holmes is the first Recreation that isn't based on a real person.
Except for Achilles, Patroclus and Penthesilea you mean? All the Greeks are pretty much established to have some basis in reality (like there was a Trojan War) but Homer is pretty much entirely fictional
Homer’s account was not entirely fictional. The Trojan War did happen. Not like he wrote it, but it was based on real events and most likely real people.
There was a Trojan war. Which involved people names Achilles, Patrocles, Ajax, etc... The events Homer describes probably do not resemble what actually happened, but the people and the place existed and a war was fought there.
The people Homer wrote about are probably the only real parts of his story
Homer is the only source we have of those people existing though, unlike the war itself. We know that Troy had a large outer wall because it's been excavated, we know Troy was burnt to the ground in the Bronze Age, because of carbon debris being left over in excavations (something which matches exactly the ruins of Carthage for example) and we have supplementary evidence the Greeks fought the Trojans there (peace treaties and calls for assistance between the Trojans and the Mitanni). The war happened, sure. The people in the story? Almost 100% certain that they're all fictional. Homer wrote the Iliad over 500 years after the war happened, and him being the only source of those people existing, it's all but accepted they never existed.
I'll finish this off by saying that I'm now in my fourth and last year of a degree in the classics, majoring in Ancient Greek history, and that I've studied the Trojan War for a significant portion of that time. Not a single professor or book has made an attempt at claiming the characters of the Iliad were real people in any way, other than Heinrich Schliemann (the first excavator of Troy and Mycenae) who is universally considered a hack
Recreations are all simulated personalities created on whatever "historical" sources exist for the recreation at hand merged with what the "contemporary" (contemporary for Infinities timeline) population believes the character would look like and behave and whatever secret agenda is under the funding that allowed the recreation to happen.
So all recreations are more or less fictional, made to look and behave in the way the people of Infinity would believe they would.
A still of the IA starter? Ah, here:
The DaoYing has a very strange hip to waist ratio, at least in that photo.
A very nice looking starter box. And listed at:
[imglogoarmy=14]https://assets.infinitythegame.net/infinityarmy/img/logos/logo_204.svg[/imglogoarmy] Invincible Army ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
It looks like the DaoYing just has a satchel behind her and some kind of waistcoat hanging in the front. It does create an odd silhouette but if you follow the armor plating it seems less weird looking.
The waist of the Daoying is definitely off. The baggage on the waist is sticking out a bit, but even if we remove that the thigh is still sticking out an unnatural amount. Plus relative to the shoulders it is also out of proportion.
I think its mostly an awkward angle. The hips are kind of twisted to her right and the torso to her left and with the armor and baggage the silhouette looks off, but when I focus on the details and compare here with the other two, they look to have about the same proportions.
So with regards to the 112 Biker:
1) Available to all Ariadna(shame they released a new crappy Kazak Doctor in the box instead of a second Dozer or a dismounted 112)
2) Supposedly doesn't replace the existing 112 profile
3) Has smoke
Grey Templar wrote: We already have a 112 model so no need for a dismounted version.
Disagree. If you're going to sell the Biker that's a new profile, they better come with a dismounted version.
I expect to have the usual apologists coming to tell me that it "wouldn't be practical", but I'd like to point out that we didn't need the Kazak Doctor in an all-Ariadna pack.
Gathering.
Easier than just printing the skills separately on the unit stat blocks? It's not like they're crowded.
300 pts of 100% new Shasvastii...
Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
5 
SECURITATE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
HOLLOW MEN Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 37)
6
