OK, so after a christmas break I looked at the last discussion thread I posted on (the 'Great Fan Pushback' of 2010) and saw how the thread gradually devolved without acheiving much. Mostly because when people complained it was all very vague.

So what is wrong with GW?

No one has a serious problem with their models or terrain kits. Hobby supplies are often cited as something that could be better, but to be fair very little could be described as poor quality (and tools and paints are hardly dificult to obtain from other firms). How much stuff costs is a source of complaints but is something that no-one would ever seriously expect the community to change - unless the 14-year-olds (or, more to the point, their parents) stage a huge boycott.

That leaves the following:

Quality of rules writing - clarity and consistency, lack of good FAQ's.
Lack of support for some armies/races, codex-creep massively overpowering others.
Removal of options for armies in favour of a 'one-size-fits-all' approach.
Lack of support (now virtually complete abandonment) for specialist games.

The question then becomes: what (if anything) can be done about it? Much of the discussion has revolved around ways of getting to the board or other senior management, but are we setting our sights a little too high? As all of the complaints centre on one department, could the change we want to see be effected by being more focussed?

I would suggest refining the complaints to a more specific set, with sensible (and preferably low-cost) solutions. Getting as many people as possible to sign up to a petition agreeing to such changes and requesting a meeting with a senior member of the design studio. Put forward the case and try and get an ally at that level - someone who can effect day-to-day change and who can ensure their superiors that its not internet ranting, but sensible people making a sincere case for positive change, with a concomitant upturn in business.

I don't know what people would think of such an approach, but I would me more than happy to 'take point' on any such initiative. Your thoughts welcome as always..

Quality of rules writing maybe the only reasonable option for complaint. I would sign up for that aspect.

Rules, their shifting business model, feedback to the fanbase and the fanbase itself from time to time.

Another petition/boycott/complaints thread? This is what, the fourth in the last month?

Sounds like a more focussed idea. I mean other big companies look to their consumer base for feedback, it just needs to be precise. This can be hard as it's something that people are passionate about, so you can usually spot more flaws because you actively follow how they progress their business/product. For example, I work in a major retailer at the weekend and it would take a lot for people to stop shopping there. However the company still insists on getting customer feedback regularly just to see if people are still enjoying the "shopping experience"(I feel dirty).
Executives and Shareholders only know so much, they really do need information from the people that are in the thick of it.

@Ketara -that's why I started a new one, all the others devolved into whining before coming to a concensus.

As Colossal Donkey has said, feedback needs to be precise, not nerdrage. If we could agree to a strategy with acheivable goals and then do it, its would be an acheivment, not a moan.

Honestly my problems with GW more stem here in the states as I have little knowledge of how they are abroad. My complaints is in the lack of Strong tourney play, and overall coverage. One of my favorite things was to see all the armies people took to the GTs, but it would seem they are taking a new avenue on all of this so I am reserved on opinon atm. I am seeing a ray of sun through the clouds when it comes to them. Price sucks but so does inflation. That is just a reality.

I'm sorry but I don't get what you mean by "strategy"; we can either buy their products or not.

If GW cared one wit about what their customers thought they wouldn't have the huge annoyance that is codex creep.

They provide a product that people buy regardless of their business model (kind of like a drug dealer).

I own stock in the company and they don't even listen to me, what makes you think they'll listen to customers?

Attitude and Relationship with customer/fan base. This is what pushed me 'over the edge' finally, the attacks on the community, the C&D fiasco and the continued dogged arrogance of a company that believes customers need it more than it needs them. The legal sledgehammer used instead of compromise and assistance, simply because it was easier. The company is fat and lazy and would desperately benefit from serious competition in the field.

Cost. It just does not equate any more. The price of 10 goldswords should (And always used to) be the price of 10 orcs or 10 halbadiers. The grotesque fact remains this:
Metal miniature costs were greatly increased to combat a 'tin crisis' that failed to really be a 'crisis', we were assured at the time that the price would be reduced once the fuss was over, this did not occur and the metals have continued along this elevated level ever since. The last financial report to the shareholders detailed the elasticity of the product price and the 'loyalty' of the customer to take this. Also that the plastic miniatures had reached the quality of the metal and that therefore the plastics should be moved to match the price of the metals (remember the metals? they're the ones that got elevated in price 'on a temporary basis' for the tin crisis).
The cost of a box of 30 celts from Warlord games (a detailed and quality product on par with GW's plastic minis) cost £17.
The cost of a box of 10 greatswords from Games Workshop costs £25.
Now supporters of GW will argue that GW's overheads are greater due to running shops on the highstreet, I wonder what that actually has to do with anything since the sheer volume of minis sold by GW is drastically higher that, say Warlord and Warlord are still making a healthy profit from those 30 minis at £17.

So, I put it to you dakkites, that the company is Arrogant, Aloof and Greedy. That is why I not longer contribute to their coffers.


All the issues over codex creep/neglect, FAQs, Rules etc can be cleaned up once they open their lines of communication and interaction back with the players.

The "problem" is that GW has made a deliberate choice to market to the so called 14 year olds. Most of us on Dakka are not part of their prime demographic. Most of our complaints (bad rules, no communication, lack of game support, lack of tournament support) pertain to a small percentage of their buying population.

In short, we are too expensive to maintain. We will buy or we won't. Does not matter to GW - they will continue to (successfully) market and sell to the more casual consumer.

Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Rules, their shifting business model, feedback to the fanbase and the fanbase itself from time to time.

In a simple manner I second all said here. I think the real key is they have lost focus on their market and in doing so have made most of the old time gamers mad and still do not do much to reach out to new gamers. We have very little new blood coming into this hobby and a lot of old blood leaving. Cost is a major issue but support from GW for the community an towards their own game system/systems is very lack. They have done a major pull back from the community at large and people that they have put into place to "fix" the problems are either morons or yes men.

Colossal Donkey wrote:Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Because, as was pointed out in the last direct action proposal thread, GW is owned (at least in part) by one of these large investment companies, who quite frankly, do not give a rat's arse about the views of minority shareholders.

This is going the way of the 'fan pushback' thread.

Until GW fail to satisfy their shareholders (and by the looks of it we will have to wait at least two years) and post unacceptable profits or losses GW will not be listening to any veterans or anyone who wants 'major' changes.

filbert wrote:

Colossal Donkey wrote:Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Because, as was pointed out in the last direct action proposal thread, GW is owned (at least in part) by one of these large investment companies, who quite frankly, do not give a rat's arse about the views of minority shareholders.

Fair enough, but doesn't that just put emphasis on why people who care about the business from a hobby perspective and who own shares should band together and change their minority standing to a more noticeable one?

Colossal Donkey wrote:
Fair enough, but doesn't that just put emphasis on why people who care about the business from a hobby perspective and who own shares should band together and change their minority standing to a more noticeable one?

I agree, but in order to do that you are talking about spending significant sums of money as a group in order to even make a dent as a major shareholder. And even if you do, there is no guarantee that the head honchos will take any notice of you. Just because you have a holding (lets say for argument's sake you managed to get a group together comprising 5%) you aren't a majority shareholder and therefore you views are just as redundant as anyone else's.

Yes, this is going exactly the way of the fan pushback thread, which is what I (foolishly) hoped to avoid. I put forward a suggestion and it would be nice for a response on that topic, not the same tired old comments about price (which won't change) and how evil GW are.

Does anyone think that change can be effected on the text written by the design studio (something that would resolve a significant proportion of the problems with GW)? If so, how can this specific be acheived?

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
Does anyone think that change can be effected on the text written by the design studio (something that would resolve a significant proportion of the problems with GW)? If so, how can this specific be acheived?

In a word, no.

What you are trying to do is great, but the only problem is they way in which information is gathered. Currently it's like trying to herd cats that have eight legs and can climb all surfaces. Archanocats if you will. Try formulating a questionair, preferably with preset answers. Just limit what people can moan about and you will be on the right track.

GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

This is so right I felt the need to quote it just for emphasis. Howard, you are spot on (and I believe you posted something similar in the Pushback thread). What makes it so frustrating is that as intelligent (by and large) GW customers or at least consumers of their game mechanics, we all know we get dumped on but have to sit there and take it knowing full well there is bugger all we can do about it. It makes me smile a little, because I know damn well that many other companies would fall flat on their arse if they tried this approach to customer service; it's only because GW hold a virtual monopoly that they get away with it.

What the problem with GW is, is a complex, and a discussion filled with flame bait. I think its down to personal choice, I also think it comes down to how you view the GW company. If you view them as a company, then the whole matter becomes rather tedious and obvious...someone has already stated, buy or do not....simple.

If, on the other hand you think of GW as being your best friend, uncle and neighbour...then the feeling of being betrayed and left out in the cold, becomes the obvious outcome of their business practices of the last few years.

For others, like me, the problem goes further, where I actually have grown to dislike the style of their products, comical, anatomically incorrect miniatures are not artistic for me, and the handling of their fluff to game mechanics and feel ratio is.....for me, appalling.....

So, what could be done about it.....actually, a lot could be done about it, and, I hasten to add, not by GW necessarily or the rabid ravings found on the internet forums....but, by the individual gamer.

When you think about it, table top wargamers are (generally speaking) very skilled people...at least those that take it seriously. In my opinion, tabel top wargamers need to take back their hobby! What I mean by this is, use the GW WH40K rule set as a basis....nothing more, use their I.P as a spring board, and then basically go out and sculpt, build and devise your own game system, that suits you and your group.

I can already hear the competition boys beating down my door with a Nay-say...well, my answer there is simple, if you drink from the tap, accept what comes out of it....if playing tornaments is your thing, then you need to play by the torney rules..end of discussion.....but sice when has this hobby been all about tornaments?

if people were to reduce, or even stop drinking from the swollen teet of GW, not only would their individual hobby experience increase, I think then you'd also get GW to listen to the drum beat of the hobby at large....but remember, this would only be a side-effect, nothing more....at the moment you take control of your own hobby, what GW thinks of reacts to is irrelevant.....

....I believe thats called freedom.

My major issue with GW games: Lack of customer support and communication.

The rules authors and codex writers allow customer questions to languish unanswered, for years in some cases.

The rules writers either are not allowed to or simply refuse to communicate directly with their customer base.

The company appears to not allow any sort of customer beta testing of their Codex releases or rules sets which further exacerbates the lack of feedback mechanisms.

The sloppy rules sets and "beer and pretzels" do not cater to a significant portion of the player base, at least from where I sit. While I don't want WAAC play styles, I would like to not have to scratch my head and dice off rules questions like "Can I Deff Rolla vehicles?" or "What happens to occupants in a destroyed vehicle if it's surrounded by enemy troops?"

Frankly, having a bit of disposable income I can stomach the prices IF it's meeting my needs. In it's current form, it's not.

I can go to the Spartan Games forums and ask the guys about rules questions, misformed ships or just product releases and they actually TALK TO ME. It's quite refreshing and really highlights the shortcomings of GW.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Yes, this is going exactly the way of the fan pushback thread, which is what I (foolishly) hoped to avoid. I put forward a suggestion and it would be nice for a response on that topic, not the same tired old comments about price (which won't change) and how evil GW are.

Then I would humbly suggest the title of this thread is inappropriate.

You raise a question; 'What's wrong with GW?' and then in your first post generally decided that for you, it was the rules and that nothing could be done about the prices or the 'GW is ebil' thing.

So you took the two things that the majority posting in the previous thread had cited as the things they think are wrong and dismissed them, going on to talk about the inconsistancies in the rules and the development team's design etc.
Which is nice. I'm very much a supporter of the notion of equal rights for all armies and appropriate support along with the company taking on board the feedback about the rulesets. But frankly, for me, it is very far down the line in comparison to the two issues I described, which you dimissed as 'impossible to resolve'. Judging by how others have posted in the thread, others are also making the same mistake. I suggest you just rename this to something about making better rules and then move on with it.

Your describing the issues of attitude and cost as 'tired' comes across in a fairly negative light. As I said, just change the thread title.

More support for tournament scene, like scenarios, missions.

JJ is another downside of GW.

GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

Yeah but I'm about to sell my shares if they don't start paying a dividend again.

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

5 million is a fairly slender profit tbh.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

5 million is a fairly slender profit tbh.

Actually, that would depend on the size of the company!

What is wrong with gw rules?

I find them good and if they dont make faq's then... uh... just make house rules on them.

Specifics:

Stop with all the Cease and Desist letters and other IP defense strategies until a more community friendly method of bringing all the IP infringers in line with IP usage.

Frequently answer frequently asked questions. I don't expect the rules to be perfect out of the gate, but I would like to have a better solution than roll a d6 for it.

Prices should reflect materials, not in game value.

There three specific demands that highlight what I feel is the problem with GW.

They keep releasing stuff I want to buy, faster than my wallet permits... That's a problem.

In all seriousness, the only issue I have is the price of some of their stuff. It doesn't need to be so high. Terminators don't need to cost $50 USD.

As for the whole IP thing. It sucks, but it doesn't seem like GW is ruthless about it, at least not IMO.

What is wrong with gw rules?

I find them good and if they dont make faq's then... uh... just make house rules on them.

That seems to be unacceptable to some folks, but its never bothered me in 15+ years of gaming. To each his/her own. I've tested the waters of a few other miniature games and GW sure doesn't have a monopoly on vague rules, typos, and lack of clear cut solutions to every possible variable.

These threads are always inevitably doomed(but can be mildly entertaining), as the varied opinions of gamers, their variable passion for or against GW pretty much rules out any reasonable discussion that could be had. Love, hate, ambivalence all seem to but their heads in these threads.

300+ c&d letters according to 40k radio
Thats not excessive

What's wrong? A total lack of respect for their customer base and a surprising lack of imagination regarding their product(s) and their business plan. Everything else stems from that.

The company goes round in ever decreasing circles because of it.

Their customers.

loki old fart wrote:300+ c&d letters according to 40k radio
Thats not excessive

If that's true, they've spent more on legal fees and postage than they probably ever lost to any IP infringement.

They'll have to put up prices to cover legal costs

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

5 million is a fairly slender profit tbh.

Totally agree, however as has been pointed out. It all comes down what the CEO considers "slender profit". If they had planned on making 20 mil, and ended up with 5 mil, then yes it could make them stand up and take notice.

GG

oni wrote:They keep releasing stuff I want to buy, faster than my wallet permits... That's a problem.

In all seriousness, the only issue I have is the price of some of their stuff. It doesn't need to be so high. Terminators don't need to cost $50 USD.

As for the whole IP thing. It sucks, but it doesn't seem like GW is ruthless about it, at least not IMO.

Back in ole Norway Terminators costs 60USD

Terje-Tubby wrote:

oni wrote:They keep releasing stuff I want to buy, faster than my wallet permits... That's a problem.

In all seriousness, the only issue I have is the price of some of their stuff. It doesn't need to be so high. Terminators don't need to cost $50 USD.

As for the whole IP thing. It sucks, but it doesn't seem like GW is ruthless about it, at least not IMO.

Back in ole Norway Terminators costs 60USD

Ick. If they cost that much here, I'd just take a piece of paper and write "terminator; lightning claws x2" on it.

To the initial suggestion of forming a specific address or set of suggestions targetted at a small section of the company (like specific rules/faq suggestions for development or whatnot): many times in companies like this, those letters are thrown away the instant it's clear that the topic is a suggestion. Companies in the business of designing products like this generally will not accept any unsolicited ideas due to the fact that the IP or copyright is murky or disputed...when someone comes forward and claims that a new whatever from GW was their idea, they put it in a letter, and GW stole it without recompense.

Mark Rosewater of M:tG had an article about it one time. He said that the legal department absolutely does not let him read letters that have suggestions for cards, rules, or game mechanics. If it becomes clear that a letter or email contains unsolicited ideas, they trash it immediately. GW's legal policy may be similar, particularly considering how gung ho they've been lately about IP protection...they wouldn't endanger aspects of their IP by accepting and incorporated unsolicited suggestions. There are certainly cases where suggestions are taken, but only when solicited (computer game beta tests, the War Machine MkII rules field test, etc).

The issue is that they have lost their connection to their initial fan base. The perhaps now believe that there is more money in lots of players who spend like mad for a few years and move on, than in long term gamers who spend steadily over a longer period.

Who knows, from a strictly business point of view they may be right.

For me, all it has done is drive me into online comunites and local clubs to support my hobby. I also am thankful for companies like Battlefront who currently seem to be doing all the things that GW used to do. Giving away frequent updates and plenty of FAQ's via their website for example. I hope this doesn't change.

Colossal Donkey wrote:

filbert wrote:

Colossal Donkey wrote:Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Because, as was pointed out in the last direct action proposal thread, GW is owned (at least in part) by one of these large investment companies, who quite frankly, do not give a rat's arse about the views of minority shareholders.

Fair enough, but doesn't that just put emphasis on why people who care about the business from a hobby perspective and who own shares should band together and change their minority standing to a more noticeable one?

Majority owner is a holding company.

If you're not part of the holding company you will -never- be more than a minority owner. period.

as i've said before. these guys will get their money out of GW whether the current model works or they run it in to the ground and sell the IP off in bankruptcy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

avantgarde wrote:Their customers.

could you least attempt to not be absolutely terrible at trolling?

you're the only troll here worse than Kinghammer AND Shumagorath...

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Yes, this is going exactly the way of the fan pushback thread, which is what I (foolishly) hoped to avoid. I put forward a suggestion and it would be nice for a response on that topic, not the same tired old comments about price (which won't change) and how evil GW are.

Does anyone think that change can be effected on the text written by the design studio (something that would resolve a significant proportion of the problems with GW)? If so, how can this specific be acheived?

???

What do you expect?

The issues are inherent to the system. GW is fine with status quo, and unless you are ready to start ponying up some cash and making an appearance at the head office, you can kindly step back in line with the rest of the drones.
Change?!? !@#$ Change.

You have not been in on the conversation, so obviously you haven't read the whole issue.

In general, if you think you have the stones, go to GW's head office, jump up on the CEO's desk and scream at the top of your lungs, " We're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore!!!!"

This companies problems and issues stem from arrogance, not being in touch with thier customers, and thier inhearent lack of situational awareness.

They don't seen to realize that there is a economy issue going on, if they do, then they are intentionally ignoring it.

NO MONEY= No Buying.
No Standards= No Buying.
Acting like a douche+ No Buying= LOW PROFITS

What do you really want?

The topic is ad nausium at this point, and unless you actually have something specific, such as "GW, your inconsistant products SUCK. The Rules are unplayable, and your tournament support is non exisitant, so until you get that stuff squared away, lets see how much you are really worth, so when I come in with a 49-55% share, I can roll up into your office and start canning some of you D bags."

YOU are shouting at the moon and wasting your efforts that could be spent on doing something more constructive, such as just putting your GW stuff away for a year and try playing a few other different games that actually might benefit from your contributions.

This company is run by a bunch of nongaming asshats that are more interested in the bottom line and TOWING the party line. You want to rock the boat? Then get stuffed, because you are going to be crushed for inhibiting the profit margin. DOn't you really know how a corperation works?

Get in line and love BIG GW like a good little consumer, and stop worrying about this issue. You'll get more out of worrying about how to stop the tide.

Honestly, though....

If you are unhappy with this product, make your voice heard by grabbing yourself a set, buying in to a good share of thier stock, and getting yourself a representative to make your voice heard in thier board meetings. Cash says STHU louder then your petty little complaints that arn't going to be even agknowledged, anyway...

Money Talks, BS walks.


If they start getting thier bell rung finacially, then you can be sure that the "Change that you can believe in" is coming...

But you know the old saying....

Be careful what you wish for... You just might get it.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:unless the 14-year-olds stage a huge boycott.

im offended. i feel the same as most other people on this board do and your implying something else/

Their rules, above all else. If they could put a fraction of the effort they put into their models into their game then we'd all be a lot better off.

Hell, I wouldn't even have that much of a problem paying their ridiculous prices if we didn't have to suffer through downright stupid rules problems that they will never even acknowledge.

TMIR covers all rule disputes. 40k isn't black and white rules, it's grey so the customer can do what he or she wishes with it.

Chimera Calvin I think its a question of personal atitude towards GW rather than organized group actions, that will change things... for you.

I think the problem is assuming that GW is on the center of the problem, when its not... you are. Its your hobby and you enjoy it with your friends.
Today there are so many companies that can provide cheaper miniatures and you can change any rules to your preferences and employ them on your own leagues...etc
If your not happy with ONE (even if biggest) hobby company take your money elsewere, and dont let GW ruin your hobby time.

They will not listen to your claims, they will not change, yet you can have a great hobby time if you ignore them and concentrate on your own enjoyment.
I vote with my wallet, and been doing it since the last C&D mess, will not change GW but will change my personal enjoyment of the hobby... Thats much more important to me.

I go even further, I like tyranids as everyone knows but at this point GW can even trash it all and go belly up... I make my own hobby these days and getting better at it.

I find the rules problems perplexing, in that I don't understand why the problems actually exist. There's a lot of mud slung at GW for being only interested in profit, but I don't see how an interest in profit could motivate them to neglect their customers. FAQ's, optional varient army lists, etc would cost almost nothing to produce and could potentially win them a lot of sales. There seems to me to be no logical reason for them to resist providing such rules support. They already have a team of rules designers employed full time. What are these people doing with their time? If I had any financial stake in GW, I would be bringing the rules developers to task for their failure to provide rules support that could draw sales.

avantgarde wrote:Their customers.

Quoted for truth. Thank Tzeentch for the Painting and Modeling Forums.

The models cost too much.....

Samus666 wrote:I find the rules problems perplexing, in that I don't understand why the problems actually exist. There's a lot of mud slung at GW for being only interested in profit, but I don't see how an interest in profit could motivate them to neglect their customers. FAQ's, optional varient army lists, etc would cost almost nothing to produce and could potentially win them a lot of sales. There seems to me to be no logical reason for them to resist providing such rules support. They already have a team of rules designers employed full time. What are these people doing with their time? If I had any financial stake in GW, I would be bringing the rules developers to task for their failure to provide rules support that could draw sales.

that's the culture of GW.

Models > Rules.

No new model? No new rules. period.

I went into a GW in Bluewater over Christmas, and heard one of the GW worker minions telling the parent of some 13 year old player that "GW paints are best, as other companies paints can melt the plastics - ditto with the glue". I left before I could say something very rude.

It is that kind of stuff that I think annoys me the most with GW. A lot of the best hobby stuff is not made by GW (paints, glue, brushes etc) and it is often cheaper too...

No proof-reading of their codices, for both games, 'nor enough playtesting (SEE DOC in fantasy).

Aswell as outrageous prices, no, I will not pay $90 dollars for a big lump of plastic.

The only problem I have are the stupid threads about what is wrong with GW....... really if you are not happy with the company STOP buying their product. But continually posting threads about what you are going to do is getting stupid.

There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use. If you can't stop buying GWs product then you are the problem.

Either way for the love of God and all that is holy stop the threads about what is wrong with GW..... I think the last 400 on the subject pretty much said all that had to be said.

brettz123 wrote:There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use.

Really? There are other non-skirmish fantasy battle games that have enough people playing to make finding a game as easy as it is for WFB? Why hasn't anyone told me about them?

Howlingmoon wrote:

Samus666 wrote:I find the rules problems perplexing, in that I don't understand why the problems actually exist. There's a lot of mud slung at GW for being only interested in profit, but I don't see how an interest in profit could motivate them to neglect their customers. FAQ's, optional varient army lists, etc would cost almost nothing to produce and could potentially win them a lot of sales. There seems to me to be no logical reason for them to resist providing such rules support. They already have a team of rules designers employed full time. What are these people doing with their time? If I had any financial stake in GW, I would be bringing the rules developers to task for their failure to provide rules support that could draw sales.

that's the culture of GW.

Models > Rules.

No new model? No new rules. period.

My Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer disagrees.

Vulcan wrote:

brettz123 wrote:There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use.

Really? There are other non-skirmish fantasy battle games that have enough people playing to make finding a game as easy as it is for WFB? Why hasn't anyone told me about them?

1. I didn't mention easy so don't put words in my mouth.

2. Stop being lazy and get some of your friends to try something new...... I imagine you have some? Friends that is.

3. Give it a shot....... you can even use the same miniatures.

My only real gripe about GW is that all of their stuff is SOOOO EXPENSIVE. I mean, if the stuff they sold was a bit more reasonably priced, so many more people would get into the hobby. I have no idea why they don't seem to realize this, but it's true. I've been a lurker with 40k since I was 11 years old, now, 4 years later I actually have money to start now. They just lost 4 years worth of potential things I could have been buying. I now refuse to buy anything directly from GW.


Other than that, they are golden to me, and I have a generally positive opinion about them.

Let's see. I would say that my marks against GW include poor spelling, bad grammar, wrong word usage, ambiguous language, and inconstancy, in regards to their rulebooks.

Beyond that this:

GW wrote: The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'.

A corporation that developes a game can't have "house rules" to said game as a "house rule" means that the rule is derived outside of the company; GW can't be ouside of itself; this is just a weak attempt to dodge thier responsibilities.

brettz123 wrote:

Vulcan wrote:

brettz123 wrote:There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use.

Really? There are other non-skirmish fantasy battle games that have enough people playing to make finding a game as easy as it is for WFB? Why hasn't anyone told me about them?

1. I didn't mention easy so don't put words in my mouth.

2. Stop being lazy and get some of your friends to try something new...... I imagine you have some? Friends that is.

3. Give it a shot....... you can even use the same miniatures.

Of my friend - my actual friends, who I hang out with regularly - don't play WFB. Or any other wargames.

I play WFB by going to the FLGS and waiting for an opponent. The vast majority play (wait for it) 40K or WFB, with Privateer's skirmish game being the only other real competition.

So it's not convincing my friends to play a new wargame - they aren't interested in wargames. It's convincing random strangers to play a new wargame. And for that matter, convincing the owner of the FLGS to carry said new wargame, which has a much smaller target audience and much slower turnover.

Not so simple, is it?

As as for your second point... you don't know me, so DON'T INSULT ME!

Well sounds like you are pretty hosed then arent you? Still a little work on your part to make friends with the people at your LGS would go a long way. But if you don't want to not much is going to change that.

brettz123 wrote:Well sounds like you are pretty hosed then arent you? Still a little work on your part to make friends with the people at your LGS would go a long way. But if you don't want to not much is going to change that.

Since I've only been there to play a half-dozen times so far, and haven't seen any one person (aside from the staff) more than twice, it would be a bit premature to call the people I've met there friends, wouldn't it?

Try getting the whole story before making judgements. That way people won't get irritated with your uninformed statements.

I think my comments still stand..... make friends and then work on getting them to play another game. Or keep whining and being unhappy the call is yours. Doesn't make anything I said bad advice.

People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

brettz123 wrote:I think my comments still stand..... make friends and then work on getting them to play another game. Or keep whining and being unhappy the call is yours. Doesn't make anything I said bad advice.

On the other hand calling me lazy because I want to see someone more than twice before considering them a friend...

Alpharius wrote:People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

Did you honestly expect anything less? Not trying to sound like a jerk, but these threads are always the same drivel.

Hot it's freaking cold as hell out here right now. Can't wait for the winter to be over.

But seriously can we just stop with these threads. What is the point. I can sum up each and everyone of these in little time at all:

Poster 1: Ohhhhh man GW really sucks. Lets get together and fix this crap!!!!!

Poster 2: Yeah GW does suck but you should write them a letter!!!!!! And be polite.

Poster 3: Screw being polite. GW minis cost too much and White Dwarf really sucks too.

Poster 4: True quoted for truth!!!!!!!!!

Poster 1: No we need to stay on topic the last 5 threads about this have all gotten derailed.

Poster 3: No really GW sucks and I am never going to buy anything from them again for at least two months.

Poster 5: What internet boycotts never work fools!!!!!

Poster 6: OMG you are such a GW fanboi and apologist. I hate you.

Poster 7: Only Hitler would charge that much for miniatures.

Poster 5: I am not an apologist and at least the Nazis knew something about price control. Jeez I hate you all.

Random Mod: Can we please make sure this thread stay s on topic and also any talk about GW pricing needs to go here.

Poster 8: But what about the children?

Poster 3: Feth the children I hate GW everyone should play Washmachine!!!!!!

Poster 77: What the feth does "feth" mean I haven't read all 50 of Gaunt's Ghosts books yet.........

Poster 9: But it isn't fair that they sent out C&D letters people!!!!!

Poster 8: Children in Africa starve and can not afford GW plastics that cost more then the metals they replaced!!!!! The corporation was evil it was so much better when they started in 1766 and a miniature was only one pence.


Repeat ad naseum.........

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:My only real gripe about GW is that all of their stuff is SOOOO EXPENSIVE. I mean, if the stuff they sold was a bit more reasonably priced, so many more people would get into the hobby. I have no idea why they don't seem to realize this, but it's true. I've been a lurker with 40k since I was 11 years old, now, 4 years later I actually have money to start now. They just lost 4 years worth of potential things I could have been buying. I now refuse to buy anything directly from GW.


Other than that, they are golden to me, and I have a generally positive opinion about them.

None of this is true.

The hobby was -relatively- cheap during RT.
It was not widespread.

The reason more people don't get into the hobby is it's a hobby. Some people don't like spending their free time building models or painting, but prefer to go get smashed at a bar or play airsoft or any number of things.

NELS1031 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

Did you honestly expect anything less? Not trying to sound like a jerk, but these threads are always the same drivel.

If you're not interested in the issue, don't bother reading the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howlingmoon wrote:

NELS1031 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

Did you honestly expect anything less? Not trying to sound like a jerk, but these threads are always the same drivel.

oh look, Kinghammer is back!

How cute.

While I tend to agree with your sentiments (see my post above) I could have wished you had posted more constructive a response to the other user.

If you become "addicted" to something, in this case, GWs products, its gives them a measure of control, not only of your hobby, but your life.....this is a serious thing to consider.

Its the reason why we see these threads, again and again....and will continue to see them a long time from now.

So as I, and others have said, I still believe that the real issue is and will always be the "fans"......you have expectations, they are not met, but you refuse to do anything about it.....you refuse to change your lifestyle to better suit your needs, and you shake a stick at GW, as if they should care?!?!

Another thing to consider, are you're expectations of GW even realistic? I mean, sure we all have likes and dislikes, but you have to consider the situation from their side, on the one hand they may or may not see all the forum abuse they recieve from threads like this, but wow, the profit margins are still creeping up! People are screaming about the price hikes, but each price hike still yields sales.....if GW were your best friend, you might have a chance of GW giving a god damn, but from a business point of view, you don't stand a chance.....

So, why try to change GW, its like moving a mountain, and quite simply, you won't succeed. What you can do is change yourself....change your lifestlye, and re-assess your hobby needs....its not easy, its not quick, but what else can you do?....yes, you can carry on complaining....of course.

It's awesome how this thread went off the rails just as quickly and spectacularly as the last one. My advice the OP, having been in your shoes 3 weeks ago, these are your choices:

1.) Ignore how much GWS corporate sucks and play the game, avoiding conversations like this one in the future, and doing your best to get things second hand off ebay;
2.) Vote with your dollars and start playing a different game.

I went for the latter and my Warmachine MK 2 book will be here on Monday. If you're like me, you have a mountain of unpainted or only-basecoated GWS stuff in your basement anyway, and would rather give your dollars to a company that appreciates them.

Howlingmoon wrote:
that's the culture of GW.

Models > Rules.

No new model? No new rules. period.

I'm painfully aware of this, but that wasn't always their policy, and I see no rational reason why it's become so. Surely they'd make a profit off making additional rules for the existing miniatures (like army variants). It'd rejuvenate interest in old models, and expand the customer base for those models long term. A Chaos variant list may attract players who don't normally collect Chaos, for example.

So, I see they have these policies, but they seem utterly counter-productive to me. And thus GW policy as a whole seems inconsistent. When it comes to business practices like setting prices and protecting IP they're a deadlty serious corporation. But when it comes to doing things for their customers (particularly rules support) they're determined to only do the bare minimum, even if it means less profit. It's almost as if they have a bias against serious gamers who want extra army lists and FAQ's and suchlike (I doubt this is true, as it would be staggeringly unprofessional, but that's the impression they give). The legal and corporate divisions of GW, though they may annoy us with their policies, are at least doing their jobs and so can be understood. Whatever their motivation, the GW rules development team seems to be the only part of the company that is not acting professionally.

Delephont wrote:When you think about it, table top wargamers are (generally speaking) very skilled people...at least those that take it seriously. In my opinion, tabel top wargamers need to take back their hobby! What I mean by this is, use the GW WH40K rule set as a basis....nothing more, use their I.P as a spring board, and then basically go out and sculpt, build and devise your own game system, that suits you and your group.

Absolutely spot on! A great idea that deserves some serious consideration. How cool would it be if the models were designed to provide gamers with upgrades as interchangeable options that could be push fitted as required?

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

This sums up my opinion in a nut shell.

Though to add on to this I want to put down the release of Andy Chambers from the company. To me that marked the end of a GW and the beginning of a company. When they let him go I just didn't care about who was working on what and what they had to say. No one stepped up, or could step up, to offer to the people an image they felt like they could address their questions.

So for me "What's wrong with GW"? Their apathy towards veteran players. After Andy, I felt as if they shut the door in our face and just started to throw everything over the wall to us. Leaving us wondering why and only to deal with what we just got.

HI all.
The problem with Games Workshop (PLC) is that it is a minatures company , pretending to be a hobby-games company to aid minature sales.

Simply calling the company 'Citadel Minatures', would be the single most 'honest ' change to alert customers to the companies main focus.

The requirments of games and gamers are taken as top priority by games companies, like GZG, THW, TTG, PP, TG, etc.

Games Workshop is NOT a games company, (its priority is minature sales not gameplay,)this is why the customers who expect more emphasis on gameplay are so dissapointed .

The fact that the corperate management act with a huge amount of arrogance and ignorance towards it customers from time to time is just fuel on the flames of this basic discontentment.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Didn't Chambers leave on his own to go work for Mongoose on SST?(Great career move, brah).

Kanluwen wrote:Didn't Chambers leave on his own to go work for Mongoose on SST?(Great career move, brah).

Doesn't matter either way, it was not a wise move to let him go..good move on his for the most part but bad on GW. Having someone who the majority of the community respected and one everyone knew have nothing but love for what he did really just showed how different thing were going to be from now on when he left. Be it of his own accord or their forcing him out, it was a bad move.

Since then when I have bothered to pay attention to news about the Dev. team it just doesn't seem like any one of them have what he had when it came to how this company worked and how to treat its fanbase.

From what I recall, he left of his own accord stating that he didn't like the other development team member's styles and wanted more control.

Not really much GW can do when it comes to keeping one guy(no matter how well-respected, well-liked, etc) on or having to rebuild an entire team.

Kanluwen wrote:From what I recall, he left of his own accord stating that he didn't like the other development team member's styles and wanted more control.

Not really much GW can do when it comes to keeping one guy(no matter how well-respected, well-liked, etc) on or having to rebuild an entire team.

Sounds like he saw that the writing was on the wall for the way the company was going, his leaving was symptomatic of what they have become, not a cause.

I think very little is wrong with GW at present, now that the "dark ages" of 4th edition 40k have come and gone.

IMHO, I have 2 main beefs with GW.

A) How they treat LFGSs (ie, ALOT more expensive for 'em to buy the products, than the GW stores... Though, this comes because the internet stores sold stuff cheaper than gw, and that wasn't good..)

B) As stated by others, it's a mini-company first and foremost. The development team has realy gone downhill.. Codex creep and all that. If it takes 'em such a long time to get a 'dex/rulebook and such done, and for that price, you should be getting either or both of: 1 well written, balanced codexes and well formulated rules. 2. a good amount of FAQs when they do mess up. Heck, an ongoing "official" FAQ, for rules/codexes and the lot, updated every 2 months or so, based on what questions they get...

a subcategory of my whine on this, is twofold as well. a) The rulebook... a good index would have helped out alot. b) the piss-poor editing. with stuff in the codex not being on the page it's written to be.. for example, the ork dex, reading the "crack" unit entry, it has the units page number listed. on some of 'em, it's wrong... this is such a basic miss that a 5th grader could do better... (/end soap)

//Calle

PS. that reminds me.. this might be a local thing, but I REALLY dislike the local GW we have around here. Some of those who work there are decent, but many are halfwits. I've worked in small stores alot, and whilst you can't remember every customer, you usually have a clue if you've seen 'em before or not... ie, I'm blatantly annoyed, when I enter the store 3rd day in a row (I was buying stuff for a conversion, and it kinda escalated.. ) and every damn time, this employee walked up to me, asked me if I was new and basicly tried to make me buy space marines... I mean, GEESH! first day, fine, 2nd and 3rd?!?

No, I don't like their attitude at all...I'd avoid the place if the LFGSs wasn't in the process of fading out from selling GW stuff due to the piss-poor service and support they get from GW...

BrookM wrote:Rules, their shifting business model, feedback to the fanbase and the fanbase itself from time to time.

I'll agree to this and list it as my main beefs as well.

Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:OK, so after a christmas break I looked at the last discussion thread I posted on (the 'Great Fan Pushback' of 2010) and saw how the thread gradually devolved without acheiving much. Mostly because when people complained it was all very vague.

So what is wrong with GW?

No one has a serious problem with their models or terrain kits. Hobby supplies are often cited as something that could be better, but to be fair very little could be described as poor quality (and tools and paints are hardly dificult to obtain from other firms). How much stuff costs is a source of complaints but is something that no-one would ever seriously expect the community to change - unless the 14-year-olds (or, more to the point, their parents) stage a huge boycott.

That leaves the following:

Quality of rules writing - clarity and consistency, lack of good FAQ's.
Lack of support for some armies/races, codex-creep massively overpowering others.
Removal of options for armies in favour of a 'one-size-fits-all' approach.
Lack of support (now virtually complete abandonment) for specialist games.

The question then becomes: what (if anything) can be done about it? Much of the discussion has revolved around ways of getting to the board or other senior management, but are we setting our sights a little too high? As all of the complaints centre on one department, could the change we want to see be effected by being more focussed?

I would suggest refining the complaints to a more specific set, with sensible (and preferably low-cost) solutions. Getting as many people as possible to sign up to a petition agreeing to such changes and requesting a meeting with a senior member of the design studio. Put forward the case and try and get an ally at that level - someone who can effect day-to-day change and who can ensure their superiors that its not internet ranting, but sensible people making a sincere case for positive change, with a concomitant upturn in business.

I don't know what people would think of such an approach, but I would me more than happy to 'take point' on any such initiative. Your thoughts welcome as always..

i think their biggest problem is they love the Smell of their own $h!t. they think that because the put their name on it people will not only buy it, but crave it(tools, paint etc...). that mindset has led to them saying we don't need to write good rules (or follow them up with sensible FAQ). it's an issue of them believing their own propaganda. until they either experience something that shakes them to the core(mass customer defection) or gets management that actually gives a Rat's a$$ about the consumer, nothing will change.

okay, you can have the soapbox back...

Henners91 wrote:Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.

best idea so far

wardancer wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.

best idea so far

No, it's really not.

Unless every other miniature or ANY form of hobby company are forced to sell at the same profit level--you'd just end up with GW going under.

Try again.

Hmm, it worked for socialism......oh wait, socialism doesn't work and that's what that would be. Capitalism makes the world go around.

As long as ANY and EVERY business on Earth had to sell at a break-even point it'd lead to GW suing the British government (and rightly so).

Kanluwen wrote:

wardancer wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.

best idea so far

No, it's really not.

Unless every other miniature or ANY form of hobby company are forced to sell at the same profit level--you'd just end up with GW going under.

Try again.

Did you misplace your sense of humor?

Too much OT lurking. It makes me bitter as well.

Everything. GW is another evil company from the business district of hell. Its quite lovely there apart from the toture and red shirt guys coming in and asking for some models

A very interesting topic, indeed.

I think the major issue is that the studio seems somewhat disconnected from how the games are actually played as opposed to how they're designed. In some respects, this is completely natural. The GW employees, for the most part, play against each other and thus the studio becomes its own little echo chamber. These forums and the tournaments provide some insight, though it's easy to view these players as the exception rather than the rule.

I work in a similar industry and this is REALLY easy to let happen. And, in a situation where people actually need to get out and find new players...well, that compounds the issue.

But I'm making a GIANT assumption that's shaped by my group and my constant lurking on 40k sites: namely, that the game drives the sales. That people buy the models to play, not just to paint. GW could have data otherwise (certainly, the focus in White Dwarf seems to indicate they think painting is at least as, if not more important than, the games).

I don't think people would buy lots of nearly identical models to paint unless they were formed into armies in order to play the games. GW recognises this by the emphasis on Troops in 5e, which is intended to sell more models.

People who are interested in painting want a variety of figures. Space Hulk would appeal more to this type of user because all the models are individual.

I think the problem is that people who are into über-competitive rules-intensive tournament play expect the rules to be catered to them and perfectly balanced; being a casual player I don't pay such close attention to balance and if there's ever any rules confusion we resolve it in-house, with a D6 roll if need be.

Owain wrote:I think the problem is that people who are into über-competitive rules-intensive tournament play expect the rules to be catered to them and perfectly balanced

Even by casual standards GW's rules are terribly written and presented. It has nothing to do with these near-mythical "über-competitive rules-intensive tournament" players.

Its easier to ask, 'whats right about GW?'

Then I can say nice miniatures and an OK background. I also like that they haven't outsourced core production to China, but keep factories in the UK - I actually respect them for that.

The grimdark goes too far and too cliche though conversely its resisted political correctness - which I also respect.

As for whats wrong: just about everything else.

What's wrong with GW?

People thinking GW is their best pal and confidant and not a corporation.

A few posts removed for flaming and personal attacks, Users are reminded to be polite to each other.

Orlanth wrote:The grimdark goes too far and too cliche though conversely its resisted political correctness - which I also respect.

They've done lots of things to soften in up and take away the non PC things, like getting rid of suicide bombers, making daemonettes put their boobs away, getting rid of the Fimir for reproducing via rape. That's probably the reason they want to overhaul Dark Eldar, the killing and raping stuff doesn't fit their core market. I'm suprised they even allowed it in for 3rd edition because the game has become less adult orientated since the introduction of 3rd edition. The 40k universe is only superficially grimdark, they just puts skulls on stuff, the really nasty stuff has had its teeth pulled.

Double post

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Orlanth wrote:The grimdark goes too far and too cliche though conversely its resisted political correctness - which I also respect.

They've done lots of things to soften in up and take away the non PC things, like getting rid of suicide bombers, making daemonettes put their boobs away, getting rid of the Fimir for reproducing via rape. That's probably the reason they want to overhaul Dark Eldar, the killing and raping stuff doesn't fit their core market.

No human bombs, I accept this one.
Daemonette resculpts, ok, but there was a general change in artistic vision and GW has never been much into nudity. The Asdrubaal Vect slaves , in tame poses are all you get. I have no problem with that, too many game compaznies are all tits and chainmail lingerie. In most fantasy art and miniatures design girls dress down even if they were full plate. The amount of time I see plate steel corsets and naked shoulders-upper chest, count as plate mail.... those girls wouldnt last more than a few seconds in a fight, normally those are the first areas to armour for anyone who took armnour remotely seriously.
As for the Fimir, they have been gone longer than squats.

Coming to Dark Eldar, and also Dark Elves, there were measures to tone down both races by GW management, but the studio said no. The svelt evil of these races is what they are, but with witch elves excepting there is no bias in sexual focus. I doubt they are toning down Dark Eldar, I take the face value approach that noone like the model range, after all they have not toned down Dark elves.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I'm suprised they even allowed it in for 3rd edition because the game has become less adult orientated since the introduction of 3rd edition. The 40k universe is only superficially grimdark, they just puts skulls on stuff, the really nasty stuff has had its teeth pulled.

I really dont agree. The skull skull skull has made grimdark a no brainer cliche. 'Want evil just add moar skulls.' However this is because designers and IP controllers are lacking the imagination to maintain the quality. Commissars and inquisitors are also by and large cliche mass murderers, you could have kept all the chill of the evil regime with a bit more levity built in. Because exterminatus is handed out like candy it has no mystique or horror factor in the background, its just a kiddified slaughterfest of uber kewl.
The poor handling reduces the grimdark, but I think that is accidental and is due to a reclining quality in writing up of the background. The background itself is however very politically incorrect and grim.

Put it this way the human factions default protagonists and viewpoint race are religious extremists in an unambiguously totalitarian dictatorship with fascistic overtones. To put it even more simply 'In the grim darkness of the far future the Fundamentalist Nazi party is the closest you get to a White Hat faction', its them them or a variety of somethings far worse.

Fateweaver wrote:People thinking GW is their best pal and confidant and not a corporation.

An intensely ignorant statement with no basis in reality made for the express purpose to annoy those who disagree with you. And that's the polite way of putting it...

It's not about wanting GW to be our 'best pal'. It's about GW finding a balance between its responsibility to its shareholders and it's customer base, rather than treating the customers like a necessary evil.

Jervis Johnson told me during his 2008 visit to the US that a survey they conducted in the UK indicated that two-thirds of GW customers are "craft hobbyists". As was pointed out here previously, recent articles in White Dwarf seem to acknowledge that. Gamers who are not hobbyists are the more visible though smaller group because they spend more time at the store looking for opponents. Hobbyists mostly buy their models and take them home to build and paint them. Still, both groups account for significant income for GW and marketing is clearly designed to try and cater to both.

It occurs to me that (and forgive me if it's been mentioned in this thread already, 4 pages and thousands of topics saying virtually the same things gets tiring to read) most people mention the shoddy rules and weak FAQ as a big complaint against GW. What if we just get together and collaborate an entirely vanilla standardization of rules? I'm thinking something in the spirit of INAT, but go so far as to have actual codexes and rulebooks. Obviously, there will be copyright concerns, but as I understand copyright, now becoming this thread's annoying self-proclaimed arm-chair paralegal, the rules to the system cannot be copyrighted, only the method in which they are presented. Based upon this, I don't understand why we couldn't just engineer something similar to what Paizo's Pathfinder did for D&D, but in our own image. Obviously, it doesn't do much for the power-gaming WAAC/tourament crowd, but somehow I have a feeling that most of them don't compain about the rules now anyway.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:People thinking GW is their best pal and confidant and not a corporation.

An intensely ignorant statement with no basis in reality made for the express purpose to annoy those who disagree with you. And that's the polite way of putting it...

It's not about wanting GW to be our 'best pal'. It's about GW finding a balance between its responsibility to its shareholders and it's customer base, rather than treating the customers like a necessary evil.

Every corporation does. It must just rub your nerd self the wrong way that a corporation for nerds doesn't treat it's customers like little brother. To other corporations like M$, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, IBM, Apple, yada yada yada YOU are just a necessary evil H but I don't see you in the OT section decrying your hate for Coca-Cola and the fact they don't kiss your ass or M$ and the fact they don't kiss your ass and are just a $ figure to them.

Trust me when PP gets as large as GW (if it ever does) you think they'll keep listening to the customers and what the customers want? You think they'll keep kissing your ass (and I'm willing to bet PP doesn't do that, the rabid fans of PP just think PP cares about them and listens to them).

Of all the businesses I've seen that are discussed on Dakka that appears to listen to customers and care is Battlefoam. Will it stay that way? So long as they don't become a corporate entity with share holders they probably will continue to care and listen to the customer.

I'm willing to bet there are more people in the world wanting Coca-Cola to release a grape Coke to sit alongside the Cherry coke than their are GW nerds wanting GW to listen to their input as far as what models should be made, what codeciies should be released next, which armies should be squatted but yet in all my years of being alive I have yet to see Grape Cola hit the market (and I'm willing to bet people in the real world actually write pen and paper letters to Coke suggesting it, not whining all day on the coke forum about how they can't have grape-flavored Cola).

Fateweaver wrote:
Every corporation does. It must just rub your nerd self the wrong way that a corporation for nerds doesn't treat it's customers like little brother. To other corporations like M$, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, IBM, Apple, yada yada yada YOU are just a necessary evil H but I don't see you in the OT section decrying your hate for Coca-Cola and the fact they don't kiss your ass or M$ and the fact they don't kiss your ass and are just a $ figure to them.

This is true, but it's not how it should be. Since GW stuff is luxury goods, they can do things like charge $$$ for things that should in reality only be $. That's how the real world works, and only a concerted effort against said company can change that, and SHOULD be able to change that, because it's luxury goods and not gasoline or milk. If you don't think that's how luxury goods work, you should check out the resale market for engagement rings. I applaud any attempt to try to boycott GW or otherwise show them that they're rubbing fans the wrong way. The biggest issue is that the people who are complaining are GW fans. They'll complain as long as there is easy access to people willing to listen (internet), but when the time comes and the new Space Wolves/Tyranids/Squats/Whatever codex is released, they'll go "Ohhh, shiny!", and they'll pick it up along with $$$$ worth of models, and then the beancounters at GW happily report that everyone must be as satisfied with the products as they can be, and assume that the noise anyone has hear on the Internet is just that, noise.

I'm willing to bet there are more people in the world wanting Coca-Cola to release a grape Coke to sit alongside the Cherry coke than their are GW nerds wanting GW to listen to their input as far as what models should be made, what codeciies should be released next, which armies should be squatted but yet in all my years of being alive I have yet to see Grape Cola hit the market (and I'm willing to bet people in the real world actually write pen and paper letters to Coke suggesting it, not whining all day on the coke forum about how they can't have grape-flavored Cola).

This argument is invalid and unhelpful. You should try "..percentage of marketshare in the world wanting Coca-Cola to release a grape Coke to sit alongside the Cherry coke than there is percentage of marketshare wanting GW to listen to their input...". The way you phrased it, it's about as moving as if you said "The number of people who like air are much greater than the GW nerds wanting GW to this and that." Admittedly, much less compelling that way when you think about it, but it's much more accurate. You can't count people who don't exist in the marketshare.

Also, at the risk of being awesome, coca-cola forums: http://www.topix.com/forum/com/ko
No mention of Grape Cola anywhere on the forum though.

EDIT: Finally, "boycott coca-cola" in google returns 271,000 results. "boycott 40k" returns 138,000 results. That shows that pure volume, there are more angry coke nerds out there than angry 40k nerds. Also, assume you're estimating percentage of marketshare, if there was half as many people buying 40k stuff as there were drinking beverages from the carbonated beverage industry, then they would have equal percentage of angry people. I think that Games workshop would LOVE to have that kind of a following.

EDIT 2: Clarity.

Here is a simple strategy for getting GW to change it mind on all this.

First, have a presence in GW stores, if only to dissuade new customers, just until you get kicked out. Not like too many diehards would hang out at GW's stores if we can help it.
Second, whether you are at a GW store or elsewhere, when you see anyone 14 years old or so talk them out of buying GW products. Tell them how GW will not care about them, tell them GW is greedy, tell them they'll only ever lose and serve to boost your ego. Give them the worst time of their life and chase them off. Instead propose to them another game which will be much more forgiving but will keep them in the greater hobby community, so that 5+ years from now they can be brought into the fold.
Third, never play a GW game in front of anyone of the impressionable age. Only play other non-GW games in local shops. Also play to their desire to be "older" tell them whatever non-GW game you're playing is meant for older kids and GW is meant for children.
Fourth, if they're still insistent on playing a GW game, sell them or give them the random or old figures you have but never use. Preferably to a non-Marine army. This is one less thing they will buy from GW and one less dollar GW is getting from a kid.

It comes down to gaming their statistics to gain a beneficial outcome... like below.

An example of the type of situation which must be fostered is that of Harley Davidson, for 50+ years it gained fan based support through reputation. In the 90's cost prohibativeness and a community growing disproportionately older effectively chased out younger new comers. Cheaper alternatives in the form of foriegn made motorcycles pulled in those younger potential customers. This nearly pushed Harley Davidson in to bankruptcy and forced the company to focus more intently on its establish fan base.

If you deplete the number of younger kids coming into the stores and buying GW you will trigger a knee jerk reaction in GW of turning to die hard loyal fans to support them. The reduced growth of new customer sales force them to turn to specialized sales designed to appeal to niches within the existing community.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:So what is wrong with GW?

People have this mistaken, quaint notion GW is some little game company run by and for gamers, rather than the multinational market-leading corporation that derives the overwhelming majority of its revenue and profit from the sale of physical miniatures.
____

aka_mythos wrote:An example of the type of situation which must be fostered is that of Harley Davidson, for 50+ years it gained fan based support through reputation.

Harley is a *great* analogy. Like GW, HD set up a side business to make sportier bikes - Buell. Like Specialist Games, that Buell is now dead and gone. Also, like GW, HD has a number of small competitors doing low-volume premium work (i.e. high-output V-twin engines). And like GW, HD is now a business rather than a fan project.
____

daedalus wrote:Finally, "boycott coca-cola" in google returns 271,000 results. "boycott 40k" returns 138,000 results. That shows that pure volume, there are more angry coke nerds out there than angry 40k nerds.

No, it shows you don't do a very good google search.

"boycott coke" gives 2.9 MILLION results, so you're off by more than an order of magnitude.
"boycott cocacola" adds another 2.2 MILLION results...

Clearly more Coke fiends than GW addicts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

daedalus wrote:Finally, "boycott coca-cola" in google returns 271,000 results. "boycott 40k" returns 138,000 results. That shows that pure volume, there are more angry coke nerds out there than angry 40k nerds.

No, it shows you don't do a very good google search.

"boycott coke" gives 2.9 MILLION results, so you're off by more than an order of magnitude.
"boycott cocacola" adds another 2.2 MILLION results...

Clearly more Coke fiends than GW addicts.

Interesting, the hyphen must have thrown it off, though I intentionally avoided "boycott coke" because I wanted to make sure we were talking about carbonated beverages and not white power.

It appears that more than one person misplaced their sense of humor. Off topic ranting on politics and such is already part of this thread.

Someone wisely pointed out early in this thread that this topic in some form or other seems to pop up quite often. Does anything productive ever come out of these discussions or are they just catharsis for the angry crowd? With all the strife and injustice in the world, I find this hobby to be a great escape from the pressures of reality and the last thing to be angry about.

BrassScorpion wrote:It appears that more than one person misplaced their sense of humor. Off topic ranting on politics and such is already part of this thread.

Someone wisely pointed out early in this thread that this topic in some form or other seems to pop up quite often. Does anything productive ever come out of these discussions or are they just catharsis for the angry crowd? With all the strife and injustice in the world, I find this hobby to be a great escape from the pressures of reality and the last thing to be angry about.

Honestly, as I see it, there is a particular type of people in the world who are complete curmudgeons who will manage to find disdain in any situation given the opportunity and an audience. Admittedly, I am among these cynical few. I've never actually seen anything productive come out of these threads and are almost always cookie cutter duplicates of each other.

Personally, the only issues I have with GW is the lack of support when it comes to rule sets. I don't give a care one way or the other about the cost. Would I like it to be cheaper? Absolutely. Is that going to cause me to dedicate hours of whining about? No. It's a luxury, it's not food, water, or the gas I buy to get to work; I can survive without it and only buy it when it's within my means to do so. What is going to cause me hours of whining is the fact that DH or WH have not seen an update in the matter of time that other armies have seen 2+, and the halfhearted FAQs don't count. You can engineer house rules, but those only extend to the number of people willing to accept them, which is typically not very large outside of a small group of people willing to run with experimental stuff. This is a barrier to my fullest enjoyment of the hobby, and leads to bitterness. Having that been said, I still enjoy painting, though you wouldn't know it by looking at my army, and I really enjoy assembling miniatures. I don't mind paying 45 bucks for a hellhound, much to my girlfriend's disdain, because I know that it will provide me with hours of release from the suck of work and life cutting it out of the sprues and putting it together. I just wish I could enjoy playing the game as much I do assembling the parts.

40k to me feels like I am buying a BMW that I have to assemble and paint myself, but no matter how well I do it, it says in the manual that it won't ever work as well as the bright blue and white Stanza the neighbor just built.

daedalus wrote:

"Personally, the only issues I have with GW is the lack of support when it comes to rule sets. "

QFT!!!!!!! Amen!

BrassScorpion wrote:Jervis Johnson told me during his 2008 visit to the US that a survey they conducted in the UK indicated that two-thirds of GW customers are "craft hobbyists". As was pointed out here previously, recent articles in White Dwarf seem to acknowledge that. Gamers who are not hobbyists are the more visible though smaller group because they spend more time at the store looking for opponents. Hobbyists mostly buy their models and take them home to build and paint them. Still, both groups account for significant income for GW and marketing is clearly designed to try and cater to both.

Wowsers. If this is true, then GW's focus on the non-gaming side makes perfect sense. As well as their view of the games side...if GW thinks (with data) that 2/3 of their business comes from craft hobbyists, that's where they'll put the majority of the focus. If GW believes that FAQ, tournaments, codices, etc. are for just 1/3 of their customers...well, they'll allocate resources to match that income. Simple economics.

It's easy here in our gaming forums to rant and rave that GW doesn't give us the focus we're due, but that's because here we can't possibly imagine we're in the minority (this includes me, I should note). We're in our own echo chamber.

By and large, I think GW does do a pretty good job and I'm a huge fan. Yes, I'd like things to get better for my own tastes, but should that marketing data be true, I totally understand why GW wouldn't be doing things as I'd like them to.

Rules/Codex issues.


I think that instead of them having a new edition come out, then crank out new codes for new edition..

I think they should follow the following model to help reduce clutter, promote fairness of rules, and balance between races..

When writing a new edition, sit down and modify every existing codex to a greater or lesser degree to make them all play correctly in the updated rules format. All of which should be released at the same time.

I would have to disagree with the fact that GW are tyring to muplicate teenager, because most players are either in they twenties or older. Where can you find a teenager now that can afford an armies? The answer is, there isn't any teenagers that can afford their own armies, Most or all them rely on their parents income, and with the ecomoic troubles that America and the American public faces, many families can not afford to share any money in this market at this time. Even though it seem that GW is foucing their marketing on the younger coward. GW is market plan should be toward the true players in 40K, which is the older coward. I understand that in order for a game to survive, it need new blood. The problem with that is kids are now growing faster than i have ever seen. Most of the 40k players in my store are between the age of 25-39, there isnt a single teenager in site. I tried to push the game, but once again you have to look at the ecomoic problem we are in and the fact the techonology is taking over the market. Most kid want either a PS3 or 360 and not sent the time in this game. the other problems with GW is that they are not in tune with the players market. They are so back logged with codex, rules and other gak. The company needs a new CEO and overhaul the whole company.

The reason I left GW was the price increases points and the broken and unrealistic rules. When a system has a Q&A every month and when I can't perform real world tactics like suppressive fire, split units, field works and allowing for a commander to play the army against their enemy and not their special rules. I also hate point systems as it becomes more of a game in which whoever has the best special rules then an actually military strategic battle.

The system I use now allow for me to do anything on the field. I can dig foxholes, set booby traps and use suppressive fire to channel the enemy and use weapons in a realistic manner.

Love the minis and background but it just wasn't enough to keep me dedicated to it.

Brian

TopC wrote:Rules/Codex issues.


I think that instead of them having a new edition come out, then crank out new codes for new edition..

I think they should follow the following model to help reduce clutter, promote fairness of rules, and balance between races..

When writing a new edition, sit down and modify every existing codex to a greater or lesser degree to make them all play correctly in the updated rules format. All of which should be released at the same time.

i see where your coming from but in all fairness as i said in the Grate fan push back if the game is too balanced it will become stale and bland and not enjoyable. not every thing in Life is Balanced i like the fact playing lower teir armys gives you a masive draw back for fantasy i play a pure NG armie i went up ageinst a mates VC and he is a grate tactision and stuff the dice where in his favor yeah i lost but i went down fighting (admitidly my armie did jack most of the time dam animosity) but the next time i play him i will adapt.

Im sorta new to the fourm scene on and off for the last two years so i really cant see why you lot are getting so Fethed off that a company is runing the way they want to run, i just cant see why!

The reason I left GW was the price increases points and the broken and unrealistic rules. When a system has a Q&A every month and when I can't perform real world tactics like suppressive fire, split units, field works and allowing for a commander to play the army against their enemy and not their special rules. I also hate point systems as it becomes more of a game in which whoever has the best special rules then an actually military strategic battle.

The system I use now allow for me to do anything on the field. I can dig foxholes, set booby traps and use suppressive fire to channel the enemy and use weapons in a realistic manner.

im sorry to go off topic here but when ever did it say it was realist in the rule book and the rules arnt broken at all (any one says the chaos codex is a world of hurt is gona come) im not trying to flame this but i would like to know abit more on how you came to that conclusion.

untill you guys give a ligit reson thats not the rules or the price of figs( witch imho is correct pricing for the uberness) stop crying about
it (thats the nice way i putting it)

Pete

Pete_scete wrote:

TopC wrote:Rules/Codex issues.


I think that instead of them having a new edition come out, then crank out new codes for new edition..

I think they should follow the following model to help reduce clutter, promote fairness of rules, and balance between races..

When writing a new edition, sit down and modify every existing codex to a greater or lesser degree to make them all play correctly in the updated rules format. All of which should be released at the same time.

i see where your coming from but in all fairness as i said in the Grate fan push back if the game is too balanced it will become stale and bland and not enjoyable. not every thing in Life is Balanced i like the fact playing lower teir armys gives you a masive draw back for fantasy i play a pure NG armie i went up ageinst a mates VC and he is a grate tactision and stuff the dice where in his favor yeah i lost but i went down fighting (admitidly my armie did jack most of the time dam animosity) but the next time i play him i will adapt.

Im sorta new to the fourm scene on and off for the last two years so i really cant see why you lot are getting so Fethed off that a company is runing the way they want to run, i just cant see why!

The reason I left GW was the price increases points and the broken and unrealistic rules. When a system has a Q&A every month and when I can't perform real world tactics like suppressive fire, split units, field works and allowing for a commander to play the army against their enemy and not their special rules. I also hate point systems as it becomes more of a game in which whoever has the best special rules then an actually military strategic battle.

The system I use now allow for me to do anything on the field. I can dig foxholes, set booby traps and use suppressive fire to channel the enemy and use weapons in a realistic manner.

im sorry to go off topic here but when ever did it say it was realist in the rule book and the rules arnt broken at all (any one says the chaos codex is a world of hurt is gona come) im not trying to flame this but i would like to know abit more on how you came to that conclusion.

untill you guys give a ligit reson thats not the rules or the price of figs( witch imho is correct pricing for the uberness) stop crying about
it (thats the nice way i putting it)

Pete

"If the game is too balenced it will become stale and bland and not enjoyable."

How many games (aside from GW's) do you play that you can honestly say that with a straight face?


"Im sorta new to the fourm scene on and off for the last two years so i really cant see why you lot are getting so Fethed off that a company is runing the way they want to run, i just cant see why!"

You have seen HOW many threads about this subject, again?
You can't see why?- Well. Its probibly a number of reasons, from people just like to B and M about subjects, to the other, because people are passionate about thier game and they don't like what they see that they feel is something thet they actually have control over. The other reasons are too complicated to get into on a gaming forum, but they can do with EGO and ID, and upbringing, and control issues, all the way up to trying to have some sort of semblence of control over thier surroundings, even if it is for that one 3-4 hour block of time that they are playing a fantasy or science fiction game... And they feel that it is being taken away from them, and are trying to grasp concepts that they can only think about in thier worst evil dreams and nightmares.


Are you talking about the same game the rest of this conversation is about? People are fethed because they care, Honestly.

If they didn't the conversation would be about two posts and forgotten.

Telling someone that it sucks and to just suck it up is just going to start the flames burning faster. The best bet is to let it run its course, until the next genius starts the next exact thread saying the exact same thing.


I'm seeing the conversation devolve into some sort of freak show, its sick and fun in a crazy sort of way. Kind of like watching a car wreck in slow motion.

SilverMK2 wrote:I went into a GW in Bluewater over Christmas, and heard one of the GW worker minions telling the parent of some 13 year old player that "GW paints are best, as other companies paints can melt the plastics - ditto with the glue". I left before I could say something very rude.

It is that kind of stuff that I think annoys me the most with GW. A lot of the best hobby stuff is not made by GW (paints, glue, brushes etc) and it is often cheaper too...

I would have feigned ignorance and asked him to tell me which manufacturers those might be so that I could avoid them. Then I would have asked, "So I shouldn't use Testors, Tamiya, Humbrol, Windsor/Newton, Pactra, Polly S, Vallejo, Delta Ceramcoat, Folk Art, or Apple Barrel? I mean they are all water based acrylics, shouldn't they work as well as yours, unless of course they have been putting hydrochloric acid in thier formulas?"

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

Two points here that I would like to address, advertising and the oft threatened and neutered topic of a boycott:

GW has great potential for advertising. They refuse to go outside of their own magazine for advertisment, in which they are able to advertise their newest products - essentially preaching to the converted. The purpose of advertising is to sell to the uninitiated (preach to the heathens?) This is where they fail. My example is that in the late seventies and early eighties and in fact even up through now D&D had multitudinous print media ads. They advertised in comic books and various other youth media (I had a subscription to a science magazine and there was always an ad in there for TSR products and sometimes even more than one.) so they put the message out there. Even today WotC has done an incredible job of advertising their product in everything from comics to magazines that deal with console and PC gaming. To my knowledge GW has never run a print ad anywhere, or if they have it hasn't been for very long or with widspread coverage.

In my area no one knows anything about the tabletop game. We have a bookstore that sells Black Library but no one has a clue about the miniatures game, although they are aware of the MMO WH: AoR, and some even know about Dawn of War. This could be changed though if they started putting print advertisements in other places aside from their own propaganda and throwing in a plastic miniature with a flyer in their digital product. Face it, little Timmy is going to be playing more electronic games and will not even notice the tangible worlds that we enjoy unless someone shows him.

Boycotting:

If I had a nickle for every time I see this come up I could probably go buy some Wargames Factory Zulus (yes the big "Usuthu!" set). Some say it won't work because not everyone would be on board, some say that, much like Hercules' Hydra, little two little Timmy's will pop up for every grizzled old vet that walks away. We don't have to all be on board with a boycott and the less we do for promotion of the game the fewer little Timmy's will be drawn into the hobby. Aside from just not buying their products, avoid talking about the game to anyone other than those you play with, avoid their shops; instead paint up what you have in the bottom of your closet, focus on other aspects of the hobby (terrain-building, etc.), play a different game with the models you already have, support a different outfit, try airsoft, or save up some money for other things. Every vet player that leaves or reduces their involvement has an impact on the next generation buying in to the GW product line. Think, if you influence five interested people to investigate GW's products then at least one or even two of them would get hooked (If only one then GW has seen a 100% increase in their player base (you+one)) I for one am not going to buy anything else from GW this year (maybe even ever), nor shall I introduce anyone else to the "GW hobby" either. If you want to do the same then do so, but don't go whining about how we should all boycott GW.

Just the mere fact that people are so vociferous about boycotting should give GW pause.


Lies:

GW has lied to us so many times before. Way back in 92/93 when they started going plastic they released several sets, High Elves, Goblins, Beastmen, Chaos, as well as a 30 man Imperial Halberdier regiment to which the following statement was applied, "We look forward to releasing more sets in plastic as it is cheaper and we can pass the savings on to our customers." Nearly 20 years later they are now going to price the plastic as though it were metal? This is what has been reported and I for one will not stand for it.

In the end they have really lost the potential that there was in the market here in the USA, they fail to understand that things don't work here the same as they do in the UK and Europe thereby wasting money on storefronts when better support of indy retailers would have been a much wiser move.

Um, GW *did* pass savings on with plastics.

Look at Rackham, Warmachine, Infinity, or any other premium metal minis. They cost a *lot* more than GW plastic minis.

That may be so, but it doesn't feel like it when they replace a £35 metal steam tank with a plastic steam tank that costs, wait...£35!

I'd feel a bit happier if they payed just a little more attention to some of the specialist games. (namely Inquisitor and BFG) reading back through some old White Dwarf mags I find the Battle Reports concerning these to be thoroughly enjoyable.

And maybe if they kept the codexes a bit more shipshape. Some are hardly seaworthy.

I'd settle for them manning up and dropping some specialist games if it meant that the ones they left had some time and effort put into them and came back to the shops.

Specialist - where good old games go to die...

@Calvin: Ahh, but the plastic Steam Tank can be built in an afternoon with no pinning or swearing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Calvin: Ahh, but the plastic Steam Tank can be built in an afternoon with no pinning or swearing.

very true, i made 10€ a pop putting the ol metal ones together for people because of how akward they were. (did 4)

I am not really upset with GW and thier pricing. I regret the demise of quality Blood Bowl support, but that doesn't make my box set unusable.

Codex creep, spotty codex updating, bad editing and proofreading, and gross inconsistencies in the application of rules are what bugs me... and I'm just a new and very casual player. I can only imagine how irritated tournament players must get over it.

I mean, seriously? Debates on whether a mindless Autonomoton can (or even must) be your general? Is an item one-use (as is implied in fluff) or not (since it doesn't say so in the rules)? Seriously?

All it would take is a careful read-through and a thorough play-test. And given the stuff I've read in WD, they spend plenty of time playing; surely they can find the time to play-test in a systematic and organized manner.

I really don't like what they did to their bitz service. Sure, they've expanded again, but mostly just with marine parts, and it's still not a patch on what it used to be.

What really bugs me about it is, again, there was no need for it. There are several much smaller online stores now picking up the slack by offering bitz. If bitzbox can turn a profit from this service, so could GW if they'd just made some changes. But clearly they thought it wasn't worth the effort. It's sadly symptomatic of their general approach IMHO

I think GW is making excellent strides in recent years. The business seems to be making some good decisions and focusing on robust and balanced codexes/army books with an eye toward future releases such as Fantasy.

I’d say GW’s major issue is lack of a Marketing strategy. I WAS going to say that GW lacked a cohesive marketing strategy – but that would imply that GW had a strategy to begin with. I think a strong and active GW marketing department that expands the website into something more than an online store is the next REAL step for GW.

There is a plethora of customers out there with legitimate issues. A strong marketing message designed to address those issues is FAR better than just allowing those issues to fester and boil which results in customer frustration.

Samus666 wrote:I really don't like what they did to their bitz service. Sure, they've expanded again, but mostly just with marine parts, and it's still not a patch on what it used to be.

What really bugs me about it is, again, there was no need for it. There are several much smaller online stores now picking up the slack by offering bitz. If bitzbox can turn a profit from this service, so could GW if they'd just made some changes. But clearly they thought it wasn't worth the effort. It's sadly symptomatic of their general approach IMHO

There's a *big* difference between a site that gets the majority of its bitz from customers selling their unwanted bitz and maintaining a portion of a company exclusively to take apart products rather than selling them whole.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Calvin: Ahh, but the plastic Steam Tank can be built in an afternoon with no pinning or swearing.

You have to swear. It's in the name of the vehicle the Empire fething Steam Tank


/Old memes never die
//Even on utterly unrelated sites...

xraytango wrote:Way back in 92/93 when they started going plastic they released several sets, High Elves, Goblins, Beastmen, Chaos, as well as a 30 man Imperial Halberdier regiment to which the following statement was applied, "We look forward to releasing more sets in plastic as it is cheaper and we can pass the savings on to our customers." Nearly 20 years later they are now going to price the plastic as though it were metal? This is what has been reported and I for one will not stand for it.

Something that is often overlooked in the 'they said plastic would be cheaper' claims is that when they started producing those particular kits you mentioned, they were cheaper. They were also straight replacements for the metals: single-piece, basic rank-and-file models.

The prices on plastics started creeping when the complexity of the kits started increasing. There's a world of difference in cost of production between a single-piece model and a multi-piece model with a sprue full of extra gubbins.

I choose to complain about their shifting business model.

insaniak wrote:

xraytango wrote:Way back in 92/93 when they started going plastic they released several sets, High Elves, Goblins, Beastmen, Chaos, as well as a 30 man Imperial Halberdier regiment to which the following statement was applied, "We look forward to releasing more sets in plastic as it is cheaper and we can pass the savings on to our customers." Nearly 20 years later they are now going to price the plastic as though it were metal? This is what has been reported and I for one will not stand for it.

Something that is often overlooked in the 'they said plastic would be cheaper' claims is that when they started producing those particular kits you mentioned, they were cheaper. They were also straight replacements for the metals: single-piece, basic rank-and-file models.

The prices on plastics started creeping when the complexity of the kits started increasing. There's a world of difference in cost of production between a single-piece model and a multi-piece model with a sprue full of extra gubbins.

Really? Seems to me that liquified plastic under pressure will fill a properly plotted void whether or not it it has four chunky single elves on it or ten assault marine left arms holding a teddy bear. Building a properly plotted mold is alot easier now with computers, not like the old days.

I know what you are saying but I have worked in a molding facility as well, and the price rise is really not enough to justify the extent of what I like to call "the annual gouge."

New mold $5,000 (I'll even up this to $10,000 if that will make you feel better), artists/artisans hourly rate (the x factor here), and product (about $0.13 worth of plastic.)
Now of course you have shipping costs, but those are nominal when you ship as much as they do. If they sold a thousand kits at $10.00 ea. they have already made back their investment in materials. Argument ad nauseum, you know where I am going with this.

Bottom line is that there is absolutely no reason that they should run around trying to sell a plastic kit for the price of a metal one. They price things on the (surprise, surprise) role that it fills in your army.

Insaniak hit it on the head.

Those moulds cost in the neighborhood of 6-10,000US dollars each.

A one piece model can be made with a single mould. Depending on the size of the die maybe 8-12 men per die.

Multi-piece models will require multiple moulds for the same kit as the newer kits are a lot more detailed and so require more cuts and mould channels in the moulds to compensate for the extra angles and details and it's generally easier to have a mould dedicated to one shape than to try to cut multiple odd shapes on a single mould.

The SH terminators are a good example. Lots of detail for 3 piece models but due to how the moulds had to be engraved some detail is lost (the crux being a big example) because they are designed around the fact that the fewer parts you can fit on a single mould the harder it's going to be to engrave the image.

What Jervis said about 2/3 of their customers being craft hobbyists is very interesting and enlightening.

If 66% of GW's revenue comes from sales to people who don't actively play their games that changes several dynamics about which I have criticized GW for in the past.

1) The low quality of the rules matters less. If I were to take 40k or WFB seriously as games, I'm not using the product for it's intended use. The failures of 40k and WFB when it comes to rules design is natural because they're not supposed to be a well thought out robust set of rules. They're supposed to be an enjoyable past time that provides a framework for a larger hobby in order to sell miniatures. I don't think designing the best games has even been an overall company goal. The overall company goal is to sell miniatures.

2) Miniatures can be freed from the tyranny of being given value by their rules. My biggest problem with GW's rules are that they devalue their own miniatures. A Dark Elf corsair is a cool miniature. A box of Dark Elf Corsairs are equally cool. Now put them in a 2000 point fantasy game and they're just sort of there. They cease to really matter except as a relatively insignificant part of a larger (w)hole. And the individual Corsair miniature becomes almost totally irrelevant.

So why does the fact that two thirds of GW customers stay at home and work on their models free the models from being devalued by the game rules? It does so because it points to the fact that there's a larger process and hobby going on. That the overall experience that GW sells is supposed to be gratifying in more than just game play.

All of this is of no consolation for anyone who's hobby is the game first and foremost. They spend a lot of money and don't get a satisfying experience with those models. With every new release, the number of models needed goes up. The rules devalue the miniatures GW sells to create a need for more.

Despite my post dire predictions, GW is currently profitable. They've given up a bit of market share and close a fair number of stores. They've increased their revenue through video game licensing. Things are looking pretty good for them going forward. I was wrong in my predictions before, so mayble I'll be wrong about my predictions of their future and GW will tank. You never know.

An example of a set of rules that intentionally gives models value rather than take them away is Warmachine. The entire scope of the game is smaller so each individual on the battlefield matters more. Anything that is a big warmachine or beast is a lot more survivable. Individual models and units do more to contribute to the success or failure in a given game.

I don't like Privateer Press' Everblight Cavalry. So I bought some Warhammer Wood Elf Glade Riders. In Warhammer they're relatively cheap points wise and are a core choice. A box set doesn't even come with the 10 you need to get the first rank bonus. Your purchase can't contribute that much to your overall army. But in Warmachine, those cavalry will more than make up a full unit. And it's a big part of my army (10 points out of the standard 35 or 50). And they're highly contributory to my success or failure in a given game. The miniatures now feel a whole lot more valuable to me. And I feel I got a great deal. 8 Cavalry for $42 in local currency? Wow that sure beats the $100 I'd pay for 5 metal cavalry from Privateer Press (not that 5 metal GW cav would be much cheaper in local funds). And of course, I didn't pay $42. I took advantage of global shipping and ordered them from a retailer in a country with a better price after the exchange rate.

But didn't I spend the first half of this email talking about why this matters less? Yep. To those 2/3rds of GW's customers that don't actively particpate in their games. And to me, because I find more value in their products when I separate them from their rules and attach them to another set of rules. I'm making the same smart move as the craft hobbyists that are ignoring WFB's and 40k's rules.

I found Jarvis' quote to be rather inductive, really. If you take a model home and paint it then you are a craft hobbyist. I usually paint my models at home, play at home, and sometimes I will drive over an hour to go play in a shop somewhere. So what does that make me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:Insaniak hit it on the head.



Multi-piece models will require multiple moulds for the same kit as the newer kits are a lot more detailed and so require more cuts and mould channels in the moulds to compensate for the extra angles and details and it's generally easier to have a mould dedicated to one shape than to try to cut multiple odd shapes on a single mould.

Yes, I get that, but you make it sound like they take the sprue out and have a different mold for each section. Once the mold is done it's done. So you have some extra ports and vents to deliver the product to the void, big deal, not that difficult.

Multi-piece models will require more sprues, not multiple molds. A large enough mold can be made to accomodate two or three spures at at time. Look at the next new frame you pull out and see if it doesn't look as though it was joined to another one in the overall kit. You may even see where it was cut from its neighbor.

IMHO

Their primary problem, at least from what I can tell from commentaries on this and other forums, is PR. I think the combination of the business model shift, the severe dumbing down and lack of fluff in regular publication, and too many armies with too little support all results in an underlying resentment from many in the community.

I think the irony of the whoe thing is, that none of these problems individually is particularly severe. However, it's small problems that people perceive as easily corrected that in fact cause the biggest ill opinion! It is because most of us still have faith that the company has everything it needs to put out great material with great creativity that we are so hard on them.

This would be the analogy, if you have a ferrari with a little dent in it, it will drive you insane... if you have a 1996 for fiesta with duct tape holding the bumper on, chances are you probably don't give that much of a sh*t... after all... it's just a fiesta.

Yes all the little problems add up. One termite cannot eat a house. One thousand termites will have you living in a tent.

IMHO marketing is their biggest problem. No new blood means higher prices to offset lower sales. They are not getting enough new people interested in the "hobby".

So let me get this straight.
66.6% of all sales are from craft hobbyists.
But GW prices units according to their role in the game.

There's a huge disconnect here.

Doube post?

Jervis probably ate some funny mushrooms from the goblin box.
If that ratio were true GW would be selling blisters rather than troop boxes as the average craft hobbyist is not interested in having 3 Valks or 3 Defilers but there is always one spot for the next cool character on their table.

M.

PS: My beef with GW is that they should keep a paradigm within game editions and keep with it, that way we can avoid most trouble with unbalanced lists just because the first two armies were designed with the more only UR and Troop slots paradigm and then the third was made with the Elite at 50% discount and special army rules galore.

Miguelsan wrote:Jervis probably ate some funny mushrooms from the goblin box.
If that ratio were true GW would be selling blisters rather than troop boxes as the average craft hobbyist is not interested in having 3 Valks or 3 Defilers but there is always one spot for the next cool character on their table.

Craft hobbyist doesn't necessarily mean display painter. I know a few people who buy GW stuff just to assemble and paint and they love getting a box of 10-20 guys so that they can make them all different and stuff.

Yes, the 3 valks or 3 defilers are likely not for someone who doesn't actively play the game, but I'd say that box sets like that represent far, far less than a third of their products.

You have a point there if in craft hobbyist you include people like me that collect an army to play but due to some reason or other are unable to.

M.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:That may be so, but it doesn't feel like it when they replace a £35 metal steam tank with a plastic steam tank that costs, wait...£35!

Metal Stank was £50 when I got one (year of release)....

Vladsimpaler wrote:So let me get this straight.
66.6% of all sales are from craft hobbyists.
But GW prices units according to their role in the game.

There's a huge disconnect here.

It is clear enough that GW is not marketing in this grossly primitive way. Although... most good advertising is pretty primitive.

GW sells plastic miniatures, that are linked to a game, and can be manipulated through that game. The fact that GW takes such strict advantage of this, and manipulates the product/ gaming experience so much, that one can only draw the conclusion that Vladsimpaler has.

I would be interested in hearing some number about GW's modeling lines though. I know their paints are pretty popular, and dominant in the overall market, but what about all their assorted knick-knacks? Does anything besides their tiny drills, actually pull any weight in the grand scheme?

GW markets itself to generic gamers, albeit ones interested in Fantasy specifically. A video game (which has done decently, and I think is pretty awesome), an upcoming movie if I am not mistaken... SM snuggie mayhaps?

If 66.6% of GW customers are hobbyists rather than gamers, the first question that springs to my mind is 'why?' Was this always the case, or has the ratio shifted since GW started neglecting rules support? Could be this is because people who buy minis to play the game are being driven away. Chicken and egg question, I know.

Edited for clarity

If 2/3 are hobbyists, and tournament players are a minority of gamers, it's pretty obvious why GW has shifted away from a level of rules support that only matters to the tiniest minority of their customer base.

In all fairness, this is completely analogous to pretty much everything else. Think about car - how many cars are sold (a: 10-14M per year) vs how many see even a *single* track day each year.

No consider how many copies of Monopoly / Scrabble that are played competitively, vs games played for fun at home. Does Parker Brothers spend any effort on the tournament rules for their board games? Is it hypocritical for them to donate some extras to the various board game tournaments as prizes?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If 2/3 are hobbyists, and tournament players are a minority of gamers, it's pretty obvious why GW has shifted away from a level of rules support that only matters to the tiniest minority of their customer base.

In all fairness, this is completely analogous to pretty much everything else. Think about car - how many cars are sold (a: 10-14M per year) vs how many see even a *single* track day each year.

No consider how many copies of Monopoly / Scrabble that are played competitively, vs games played for fun at home. Does Parker Brothers spend any effort on the tournament rules for their board games? Is it hypocritical for them to donate some extras to the various board game tournaments as prizes?

Your example doesn't hold together (and this from a nontourney player):
1. 1/3 of GW gamers ARE tournament players by your above definition. Thats a massive percentage of their client base. Put it another way, there are more tournament players as a % using the above, than sales of LOTR and likely 40K marine items. think about that.

2. Monopoly has no need for special tourney rules as well, they rules set is substantially tighter. GW's isn't.

@Fraz:

I guess I was unclear. I meant that gamers were 1/3, and tournament gamers were a tiny sliver of that (even by Dakka's tournament-friendly numbers. Try this set of numbers to illustrate what I meant:
. 67% non-gaming hobbyist
. 33% *casual* gaming
. <1% tournament gaming


On the Monopoly front, I do a bit of digging...

http://www.hasbro.com/monopoly/en_US/discover/tournaments/tournament-kit.cfm

Turns out Hasbro sponsors an official Monopoly Grand Tournament every year. They have a 16-page 2.3 MB PDF. That seems like a pretty big file for a game that hasn't had a substantial rules or version change in several decades. And the PDF as a full-page FAQ, along with a full copy of the "long" rules.

I guess if GW stripped 40k down to Monopoly level of detail, never released another version of any Rulebook or Codex, and only did tiny little tweaks every year, GW could get us to that same state of Nirvana...

xraytango wrote:Yes, I get that, but you make it sound like they take the sprue out and have a different mold for each section. Once the mold is done it's done. So you have some extra ports and vents to deliver the product to the void, big deal, not that difficult.

Multi-piece models will require more sprues, not multiple molds. A large enough mold can be made to accomodate two or three spures at at time. Look at the next new frame you pull out and see if it doesn't look as though it was joined to another one in the overall kit. You may even see where it was cut from its neighbor.

Multi-piece models also probably require a bit more sculpting, arranging, and general overall work to to make the mold than single-piece models do.

Besides, the sculpt quality of the recent plastic kits has come up a lot since the first plastic minis were released. That extra level of detail doesn't come free.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
. 67% non-gaming hobbyist
. 33% *casual* gaming
. <1% tournament gaming

I think this might be fairly accurate. I'd make the 33% say "Casual and club/store gaming day participants." There's people in there who show up at GW stores 3+ times a week to play or paint that might not be tournament players that probably shouldn't be called casual players.

I just joined the 67%. I made my first GW purchase since Black Reach. I went to Black Dagger Game's ebay store and bought their single complete model bits packages. I got a kroot, an empire handgunner, a glade rider, 2 black ark corsairs (one with crossbow, one with two swords), a bloodletter, a chaos hound and glade guard archer. None of these will see play in 40k or WFB.

So what's wrong with GW that could benefit them if they fixed it? Rules that work better and make the models feel more valuable. They had the right idea with Warhammer Skirmish, but I think they need to do a complete redesign from the ground up and kill the sacred cows of their 1980s game mechanics (I move, shoot, assault with everything while you stand there and wait, for example). Not just to appease the 1/3 who want a good game but to invigorate sales from those among the 2/3rds that would play if the rules were tighter. I'm one of those people.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the 1/3 should be neglected in favor of trying to grow the 2/3rds to more than take their place. Maybe the game rules should be marginalized further (if that's even possible) and the hobby side should be emphasized more. I know GW stores in Canada have shifted from trying to just selling people with the demo game process to also aggressively offering a free painting lesson and a space marine you paint to take home with you.

In my example, "casual" means non-tournament gamers. Guys who don't pony money up for competitive tournament events.

The interesting question would be how much did the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio change when LOTR miniatures started being produced. I would imagine that far greater number of LOTR buyers would fall into the craft / collector type.

Kanluwen wrote:

Samus666 wrote:I really don't like what they did to their bitz service. Sure, they've expanded again, but mostly just with marine parts, and it's still not a patch on what it used to be.

What really bugs me about it is, again, there was no need for it. There are several much smaller online stores now picking up the slack by offering bitz. If bitzbox can turn a profit from this service, so could GW if they'd just made some changes. But clearly they thought it wasn't worth the effort. It's sadly symptomatic of their general approach IMHO

There's a *big* difference between a site that gets the majority of its bitz from customers selling their unwanted bitz and maintaining a portion of a company exclusively to take apart products rather than selling them whole.

Which the GW bitz service was -neither- but feel free to continue your uneducated posturing if it makes you feel better.

1) The GW Bitz service was a function of packaging. They killed all packaging in the US. They also killed the system that allowed tracking of indvidual bits. Which means when you call Customer service and advise them that you are missing the head of your $57.75 Buckthirster, they send Manny at the warehouse an email to get another $57.75 complete Buckthirster out to you, instead of an email down to the warehouse telling Manny to go grab a Buckthirster head and throw it in an envelope.

Yeah. They decided it wasn't worth it. And now they get to send out full kits as replacements. Not that it really hurts them much with the mark up and all.

2) Warstore's bits service is not a "we buy your unwanted bits". They do. But they're primarily ripping apart kits and parting them out. Why do you think that a lot of people that got the mega bitz bag found a Baneblade body in it? And why do you think that they sell off complete Rhino's minus the gubbins? Because little Jervis bought 100 Chaos Rhino kits just for the vehicle sprues and sold the bodies to Neal for $10 a pop?

Howlingmoon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Samus666 wrote:I really don't like what they did to their bitz service. Sure, they've expanded again, but mostly just with marine parts, and it's still not a patch on what it used to be.

What really bugs me about it is, again, there was no need for it. There are several much smaller online stores now picking up the slack by offering bitz. If bitzbox can turn a profit from this service, so could GW if they'd just made some changes. But clearly they thought it wasn't worth the effort. It's sadly symptomatic of their general approach IMHO

There's a *big* difference between a site that gets the majority of its bitz from customers selling their unwanted bitz and maintaining a portion of a company exclusively to take apart products rather than selling them whole.

Which the GW bitz service was -neither- but feel free to continue your uneducated posturing if it makes you feel better.

1) The GW Bitz service was a function of packaging. They killed all packaging in the US. They also killed the system that allowed tracking of indvidual bits. Which means when you call Customer service and advise them that you are missing the head of your $57.75 Buckthirster, they send Manny at the warehouse an email to get another $57.75 complete Buckthirster out to you, instead of an email down to the warehouse telling Manny to go grab a Buckthirster head and throw it in an envelope.

Yeah. They decided it wasn't worth it. And now they get to send out full kits as replacements. Not that it really hurts them much with the mark up and all.

2) Warstore's bits service is not a "we buy your unwanted bits". They do. But they're primarily ripping apart kits and parting them out. Why do you think that a lot of people that got the mega bitz bag found a Baneblade body in it? And why do you think that they sell off complete Rhino's minus the gubbins? Because little Jervis bought 100 Chaos Rhino kits just for the vehicle sprues and sold the bodies to Neal for $10 a pop?

1) They killed the system that allowed tracking of individual bits because of, in their own statement, "it's easier to tell someone who is not a gamer to pick up X box to replace a missing piece for soandso than to tell that same person to go into the bits box and grab a Nurgle Plague Marine #2 Head." Yes, it was partly because of packaging.
But another thing is that they DO take the boxes that are taken back at their storefronts or sent back from FLGSes for having missing parts and use those parts as replacements. I bought a buttload of Kasrkin last year, and had a missing backpack for the Grenade Launcher figure.
So, why didn't I get a whole brand new box instead of just the GL backpack overnighted to me? I coulda used those extra Kasrkin, dangit!

2) That's their way of doing it then. I'm sure they're not losing any money from just tearing out something that would sell well(the Greatcoated Commander body from the Cadian boxes or Baneblades for example). But the smaller stuff that most people don't use(ex: Glade Guard. I can't think of anything to do with the Scout styled heads after doing up the standard Glade Guard heads, unless I'm trying to make Ghetto Gaunt's Ghosts)?
Sell 'em back to Neal's bitz service for a bit of cash, and then they turn around and get resold to someone who's making their Ghetto Gaunt's Ghosts army.

brettz123 wrote:The interesting question would be how much did the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio change when LOTR miniatures started being produced. I would imagine that far greater number of LOTR buyers would fall into the craft / collector type.

Realistically, I can't see that it changed a huge amount. 40k and WFB are well-established lines. For LotR to suddenly have created a "craft" group literally twice the size of the existing gaming player base seems unbelievable to me. I think that these craft types have always been there, but just been ill-served by GW in the past.

Of course, as craft types buy what GW makes the most profit on (minis), GW is eager to support them.

From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with Games Workshop. They serve my purposes just fine. Another satisfied customer here.

Just thought I'd chime in.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Realistically, I can't see that it changed a huge amount. 40k and WFB are well-established lines. For LotR to suddenly have created a "craft" group literally twice the size of the existing gaming player base seems unbelievable to me. I think that these craft types have always been there, but just been ill-served by GW in the past.

Of course, as craft types buy what GW makes the most profit on (minis), GW is eager to support them.

Well if we just assume that 1/3 of all sales go to lord of the rings (no clue if that is true) and a large portion of those people are not gamers (as has been suggested many times) then it would make sense to see that number shift 10% or even 20% perhaps. So it could make a large difference. But I don't have any numbers to back up what I just said. I am only thinking out loud.

I do find the GW models-over-rules mentality irksome, but that's where their money has been for the past couple of decades, so I guess I'm okay with it enough to keep playing.

I just wish they'd hire some of the more insanely legalistic rules-lawyer types that seem to thrive over in YMDC and employ them as playtesters and proof-readers of the books.

1) communication with the community. It's poor and is getting better, but the need to reach out using the internet to market, show release schedule, stop being so secrative when we can still find stuffz out.

2) FAQ's need to be updated quarterly always. How hard would it be to get a panel of 7 and make rulings over stuff 1 day every four months, type it out and add to pdf on the bloody website.

3) better distrubution to FLGS: mine gets all new releases the next week. Not a huge deal, but could improve.

4) my experiences with the GW stores, has been positive for the most part. However years ago when I traveled a lot, I went to one in Chicago, for some paints to work on some elves or some gak. I needed 2 colours and they guy inside tried to sell me everything under the sun, despite the fact that I had everything IK needed.

5) Mini's look cool- I love the plastics I love the new terrain(Temple of Skulls rawks)

As far as GW goes, the only thing that bothers me about them is that they seem to have a dim view of their customer's inteligence level. They have a tendency to:

1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.
2. Tell you that your reasoning is wrong.

About the car analogy... If GW made cars, they'd DEFINITELY make that connection between 99% of the buyers not using race tracks. (since the designers aren't racers, nobody is!) As a consequence, they would design cars assuming that nobody drives over 70mph and the car was not tested at 70mph+ speeds. As a result, the car would fall apart at high speeds. Even so, that would be totally acceptable to them, since it would only be happening to people outside their target market, and those people are donkeycaves and blowhards anyways.

My number one recommendation for GW would be to hire a volunteer coordinator. Not someone to set up a demo time like the failed Outrider and Greyknight programs. Someone to coordinate the efforts of those who are willing to contribute with the studio.

Imagine if they went here on Dakka and started a thread, "Who's your go-to guy on rules questions? Who knows the rules best here on Dakka?" and contacted those posters that both appear there and do a good job of parsing rules in the YMDC forum. Their offer: You get a text copy of the next codex. You ask questions and tell us what's wrong with it. In exchange, when it's all done, you get a free, signed copy of the actual codex. Do the same at all the other large 40k & WFB forums. Find maybe 20-30 people total. EVERYTHING would get hammered out before release.

That would be just one of the responsibilities of the volunteer coordinator. Another would be to coordinate rules councils on different armies like they had with the Bloodbowl Rules Council. So that when the army does come around for rerelease they have a ton of free, good ideas to work with

Another role the person could have is to be the editor of the online blog equivilent of Citadel Journal (remember that?). People would submit articles and they'd get posted on GW's website in a sepcial "Citadel Journal" section. Comments could be allowed like any other blog.

They'd also be in charge of developing training material for store managers to identify fan community leaders. Often it's a single individual who forms the impetus for the gaming events he's interested in. He's the guy that gets people to show up for painting events. He's the guy who gets a campaign started. Go look at your own local hangout, I'm sure if you start looking, you'll find the person in question.

This person also does not have to work and be in the UK. They don't need to be paid for the standard of living in the UK. Almost all their work can be done from anywhere on the planet via the internet.

The danger for that person would be that they'd be swamped. As soon as their contact information got out, they would be swamped with with email from every fanboi and hater on the planet. So step one is creating a volunteer force to act as contact points at different placed on the internet. This person is the volunteer coordinator after all.

I can't think of a cheaper way to get so much accomplished in terms of designing better rules and making it seem like the fans have a voice.


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brettz123 wrote:
Well if we just assume that 1/3 of all sales go to lord of the rings (no clue if that is true) and a large portion of those people are not gamers (as has been suggested many times) then it would make sense to see that number shift 10% or even 20% perhaps. So it could make a large difference. But I don't have any numbers to back up what I just said. I am only thinking out loud.

Last time I emailed GW investor relations, they told me LOTR makes up 20-25% of the sales depending on the month.

I think LOTR did grow their craft hobbyist market and I also think it's shrank, but I'm going to guess it was a net gain for them.

That only a third of GW players play their games regularly pretty much explains everything about GW's approach. 2/3rds like the models, background, imagery, building, painting, displaying, or the idea of playing with them, enough to buy without playing the game. The other third are then given a rules set that encourages purchasing models. It also explains why the rules side of the GW studio has always been marginalized by the upper-ups and why so many of GW's old guard in design have gone on to greener pastures.

Why doesn't GW create a satisfying rules set? They don't need to and it's not a good allocation of resources given their customer base and business model. If you are a player of their games first and foremost, you are on the bottom of GW's priority list. This isn't going to change.

keezus wrote:1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.

Just because you fundamentally disagree on their reasoning, that doesn't make it nonsense or contradictory or flimsy.

HI all.
IMO the primary thing wrong with GW plc is it is a minature company that uses hobby and games to promote and inflate the value of thier minatures.
Which is all well and good, apart from they dont actualy support the game and hobby aspects to an expected level.

There are 2 basic ways that GW could be an efficient buisness.
Optimise selling minatures efficiently.
Drop all pretence of game development -hobby support.Sell minatures at high volume low rrp through the internet.(Maximise the economies of scale that GW plc are idealy placed to do.)

Optimise interest through improving game play.
Produce straightforward elegant tacticaly diverse games that grow with the players.And therfore generate increasing interest and investment through word of mouth and longevity.

Currently GW has the expence of game development and hobby support , but as it is mis directed it just inflates the price of GW products.
And as the cost of products are artificialy inflated by mis managment , they can not sell thier prime product effectivley.

Thats about it.
TTFN
lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:HI all.
IMO the primary thing wrong with GW plc is it is a minature company that uses hobby and games to promote and inflate the value of thier minatures.

By value, do you actually mean price? Because while they use the game to promote the sale of their miniatures, they do so by devaluing the miniatures in their game. Generally speaking, it takes a very large collection to play a "full sized" game and the value of an individual miniature can largely be irrelevant unless it is a leader, monster or some sort of character.

So I'd say the rules are used to inflate the value that one of their customers might place on a whole collection of miniatures and to deflate the value that one of their customers might place on a single part of that collection (so they'll want more).

Which is all well and good, apart from they dont actualy support the game and hobby aspects to an expected level.

Expected by whom? if two thirds of their customers are not actively involved in playing the game, then who really has these expectations? I'd posit that it's actually only a very small portion of their customers that actually expects quality game play and support. The same type of people who might seek out support in the form of communication on a message board, for example. I think this is why there's a very high proportion of people who dislike the rules on the internet. I'm one of them. I've given up on the game completely in favor of better options (like the free rules FAD). I still buy GW miniatures but I've migrated from the small portion of the 1/3rd who play the game who are then also disatisfied with it into the main 2/3rds of their customers.

There are 2 basic ways that GW could be an efficient buisness.
Optimise selling minatures efficiently.
Drop all pretence of game development -hobby support.Sell minatures at high volume low rrp through the internet.(Maximise the economies of scale that GW plc are idealy placed to do.)

The criteria for whether or not a business is efficient is the return on capital. GW isn't concerned with efficient distribution of their product unless that allows them to be efficient in the making of money off the capital invested to become such a distributor.

That said, I think it would spell the end of GW if they did what you are suggesting. Their entire marketing approach is one of face-to-face sales. Either through their stores or an independant retailer. I imagine that a tiny fraction of their customers buy their product without first having a face-to-face reaction to it, but I imagine it's infinitesimal. They essentially would be abandoning how they get 99% of their business to chase after how they get 1%.

Optimise interest through improving game play.
Produce straightforward elegant tacticaly diverse games that grow with the players.And therfore generate increasing interest and investment through word of mouth and longevity.

This has more merit. The problem is that a tight game system and the period complete army rerelease system might not be compatible. And they might need the complete army rerelease for their sales process.

GW has stopped growing. They're still axing stores slightly faster than they are opening new ones and while they are bringing in more British Pounds than before, those pounds are worth much less than a few years ago in terms of global currencies. Or perhaps it's better to talk about them having stopped shrinking. They have plans to open up micro versions of their hobby centres in targeted cities that will likely return them to growth.

It also simply could be that the game design goal of selling models is incompatible with the design goal of quality game play. That if GW shifts their game to one that's actually good, it'll need to require less miniatures, or discourage purchases in some other way. It certainly will take away their opportunity to sell another army to someone who is dissatisfied with how their current army works-- and what do you know? There's a new re-release of any army right around the corner!

Also, their release schedule is such that each new person gets to experience an average of one big release for each system during the average time that a new person stays their customer. Everyone gets sucked in by the demo system, sold some stuff and then they try to sell the completion of a whole army to them. Then they can discover girls and forget about playing while GW moves on the next young teen.

And as the cost of products are artificialy inflated by mis managment , they can not sell thier prime product effectivley.

The most effective price is where price x units sold = maximum revenue. I'd say GW is effective at selling their product. And that their price has proven to be as elastic as Kirby claimed in his notes in the financials a few years back.

I believe GW's plans for the coming years will be to target the more affluent metropolitan areas of the world with their stores and leave the second tier and lower cities to independent retailers. I think they'll pretty much maintain their miniature sales levels while they concentrate on expanding their royalty revenue sources-- like video games.

Sorry about being the voice of doom and gloom, but I think GW will do just fine in both the short and long term. How is this being the voice of doom and gloom? They won't be changing in any way that those who are currently dissatisfied customers would like to see.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

keezus wrote:1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.

Just because you fundamentally disagree on their reasoning, that doesn't make it nonsense or contradictory or flimsy.

Back when Canadian prices were on average 35-50% more expensive than the US prices (circa 2002-2004).

Question: Can anything be done about this? It's killing my FLGS?
Answer 1: No. The product is shipped from the UK. (While this was once the case, it has not been for ages and is in fact shipped from the same US warehouse that supplies the US!)
Answer 2: No. It is the cost of shipping to Canada. (Consideirng other goods shipped from / or available in the US don't have a 35% increase in price, this too is arguable.)
Answer 3: No. It is the cost of doing business in Canada. (See above)
Answer 4: No they're not. Terminators are cheaper in Canada.

Then the prices finally get adjusted downwards after GW Canada is folded into GWNA, meaning that whatever tripe they'd been feeding customers for the last decade about inflated prices was complete gak.

GW: We support the hobby with great events!
GW: We're adding GTs and GDs!
GW: We've got a great volunteer network with the Outriders
GW: We're replacing GTs with Conflicts! - but don't worry, they'll offer the same level of service!
GW: Outrider program is no more!
GW: We're downsizing the number of GDs! - but don't worry, the Conflicts will take up the slack!
GW: We've downsized our events team! - but don't worry, it's more of a reorganization and we'll still have the same level of service!
GW: We've got a great volunteer network with the Grey Knights!
GW: We're removing the Conflicts! - but don't worry, you still have the major Games Days!
GW: We've sacked our events team! - but don't worry, we'll still have great events!
GW: Grey Knights are no more!
GW: GTs are no more! - but don't worry, our fans will take up the slack!
GW: We've downsized to one Games Day, kept the same format, and terrible location -AND- limited admission! - but don't worry, it'll be the best one yet!

for GW telling its customers how "it is".

Here's what's wrong with GW.

I preordered the Tyranid codex from GW, hoping I'd get it a little early. I'm prepping for two tourneys and every day counts. I knew there was no guarantee of getting it early, but the shipping was free and I figured it'd at least be faster than getting it at a store. So I gave GW a shot.

On Wednesday the Tyranid codex was on the shelves at an LGS. Yesterday, new Tyranid minis showed up on my doorstep that were ordered from a prominent online retailer. And now it's Friday and I still don't have my preordered Tyranid codex.

So adding this up, it turned out my options would have been:

1) Save 20%+ by ordering it from the online retailer and get it on Thursday.

2) Pay full price but get it on Wednesday and support an LGS.

3) Pay full price directly to the manufacturer and get it on Friday or Saturday (hopefully...but I have no guarantee).

You'd kinda think that GW would take care of the people preordering it directly from them. Clearly their margins have to be better on the direct sales. But it's now clear to me that there's ZERO value in preordering from GW. And I'd love to know why GW thinks I should ever preorder from them again (I won't).

Look, I'm not irate about this. It's not that big of a deal. It just doesn't make any sense. GW's a public company and allowed to chase every red cent. Fine. But money doesn't even come into play in this case. It's just GW intentionally sitting on their product instead of adding a little value and shipping it out a little earlier. I'm perplexed as to what business strategy is behind this.

Technically, the LGS AND online retailer both are supposed to have held everything in the boxes much like Best Buy and GameStop are told to do with video games until the release date.

I thought that too, but I can tell you that some of GW's retail reps are telling retail outlets that they can put stuff out as soon as they receive it. Which is good for the retailer.

Although then again, the fact that GW is running a never-ending "free shipping this month" deal *isn't* good for retailers. I'm a perfect example with my preorder.

So again, I'm not really seeing a coherent strategy here. And to me it's at this level at which GW becomes really perplexing. I think GW clearly has grand strategy, if you will. You may not agree with it, but the plan is there and they're executing it. People bash on upper management and redshirts, but IMO it's that middle management level that seems to create problems for customers.

How many years ago was it when GWUS strongarmed and cancelled a lot of their smaller FLGS accounts? IIRC, the guy responsible for that was fired and then his replacement went around trying to make amends and change policies to be a little friendlier again. It's that kind of middle management ineptitude which seems to define GW, IMO.

And with all that being said, it's interesting to me that Kirby is going to be spending a lot of time in the U.S. going forward.

My trygon and Codex arrived at 8:40 yesterday morning, 10 mins after I left to go to work....

@Keezus: welcome to corporate accounting in a changing corporation. Every single one of those answers were probably valid at the time they were made, and made obsolete by subsequent changes.

This kind of complaint is probably why GW no longer deigns to preview or share information that isn't tied to immediate release.

keezus wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

keezus wrote:1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.

Just because you fundamentally disagree on their reasoning, that doesn't make it nonsense or contradictory or flimsy.

Back when Canadian prices were on average 35-50% more expensive than the US prices (circa 2002-2004).

It's still going on, but with a new currency-- the british pound. Yes, they normalized the prices between the CAD and the USD, but since then the GBP has tanked considerably.

maelstromgames.co.uk has a 10% discount off of GW's UK RRP. So after shipping (oh wait, it's free), I can get a battleforce to my door for a bit over 75 Canadian. Local price? 108. That's 30% off after shipping. Across an ocean. But say I don't want a battleforce. That's a big item. I just want a regiment box for my lizardmen. Price after shipping from UK: 27.16. Local price? 42. 35% off. Let's say I want some metal miniatures. Like, what about Wood Elf Eternal Guard. Shipped to my door? 30.18. Bought locally? 50. Hmm. There's an example of something I can shipped, individually, to my door, for the same price my local store has to buy in on a trade account. Getting GW's metals at wholesale prices actually makes them semi-reasonable again.

Maelstrom is being very smart and performing a vital economic function-- arbitrage. When an artificial pricing system is set up to screw one area over another, someone invariably pops up to take advantage of the situation-- this helps the market to break down the artificial gouging. From 2002-present, it was the eBay sellers, thewarstore.com, miniaturemarket.com and others that sold out of the US into Canada for less than what the local stores could get it directly from GW. Now it's coming from the UK as well.

Should players be mad about this? To a degree. Who should be right pissed? Independent retailers.


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JohnHwangDD wrote:@Keezus: welcome to corporate accounting in a changing corporation. Every single one of those answers were probably valid at the time they were made, and made obsolete by subsequent changes.

During that time I worked as a corporate accountant in charge of importing goods into Canada for resale. I can tell you that the reasons they gave were bunk. Countries I imported from: Poland, Italy, Czech Republic, China, USA, UK. Final cost after shipping, duties, etc.,? Such that the company could sell them on par with competitors in the US.

Talking with my UPS rep, I found out we had the same discount level that GW did (pretty much the best possible-- we're talking 67%+ off key services). So I know exactly what GW was paying to ship stuff.

The prices in Canada were gouging plain and simple. And when people stopped paying them, they lowered them. All the BS the local red shirts were told to tell customers is just that. GW Canada's profitability dropped so rapidly because of this gauging that they were dismantled and rolled into GW US.

If it was for real economic reasons, a local person shouldn't be able to get a single item from a foreign retailer for what a store pays GW on their trade account. If I can add middle men and come out ahead, it's not real economic conditions-- it's artificial regional price control.

If you know why an arbitrageur exists, then I don't see the problem. Arb exists in a lot of markets, not just GW, and generates lots of profits. It's still an economic decision on GW's part, and how GW chooses to allocate costs on a regional basis.

Arb's not the problem. Arb is the solution. It's only possible because GW is trying to control price by region, which creates the opportunity.

Would it be better if everything GW was in GBP a la Forgeworld, and all national sales depended on ForEx rates?

As long as global currencies stay in a period of such great volatility, setting regional recommended retail prices is asking for trouble. Price changes are not something a company can do easily on a huge product range.

This is where the distributor model makes sense. A distirbutor will buy/import a product and resell it to retailers at a markup that makes sense for them. The retailer then marks it up and sells it at a price that makes sense for them.

But gaming is heavily mired in "recommended retail price." Instead of the real economic factors of importing and distributing setting the price, it's arbitarily set in a top down way. So no one can nimbly adjust to a rapid lurch of one currency against another.

And how would GW stores work in Canada if price was based of of the GBP? Reticket everything every single day?

A price adjustment policy that is more scheduled and includes currency fluctuations is probably the way to go. What they're doing know, but scheduled on a quarterly basis rather than whenever.




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My thinking is that GW should convert their prices in every other country into UK prices. Then they should allow a 10-15% disparity. Every quarter, the exchange rates are rechecked and anything that is outside of 10-15% of their UK prices after currency conversion is adjusted. So every country has their RRP and only when things get out of whack will they be adjusted back in line at each quarterly review.

It's not good for a local retailer for someone to be able to get a single product for less than what they pay at wholesale. How can they compete? Sell it at cost? Try to find a foreign distributor to also take advantage of the regional pricing discrepancies? Get really preachy and bitchy and try to guilt trip local players into paying almost double?

This is where I think the arb guys who are selling cross region online are doing everyone a service. They're exposing this nonsense and forcing change. Either close the gap, or they'll keep making more money off of it and the numbers of GW's foreign divisions trade sales start to suffer. Perhaps to the point where they are proven redundant and pointless and go the way of GW Canada.

IMO, the Arbs only really make sense for countries with more land than people: Oz & Canada. The fact that Canada or Oz do better via Arb doesn't matter to GW because the volumes are trivially insignificant. The loss of profit there from the handful of people willing to brave cross-border purchases doesn't affect GW's bottom line on a global scale. That is why GW only really cares about GWUK and GWUS.

It's only when USD-GBP exchange rates get really out of whack that things get sticky for GW, but as we've seen over the past few years, GW has an *excellent* way to resolve this "problem" of disparate pricing...

Canada could be very profitable for GW. While there is a large amount of space, there's also very concentrated urban centres. Canada has 33 million people and is growing. the UK has 61 million and isn't quite growing that fast. Not caring about developing the Canadian market (when you have a factory right there in the country next door) is like neglecting half the UK. It's stupid. They should care about arb ebayers hurting their stores in Canada. It's potentially a very big market for them.

Now I'll give you Australia. It's far enough away that shipping matters. Until GW breaks into China and starts manufacturing there, it's a long way from either the UK or the US to ship stuff to Australia. Alternativley, perhaps Australia is the perfect place to launch an invasion of China and India's most prosperous neighbourhoods with GW products.


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Now the arb thing is just one small issue. It's just one small factor that contributed to a lot of independent stores that used to have GW as their only miniatures products really diversifying. GW basically drove the North American independent retailer into the waiting arms of Privateer Press and others. They're starting to turn things around, but it's not happening quickly.

Overall though, I'm not sure GW really has anything wrong with it from the perspective of their target market. That's not us, by the way. I can see lots of ways it could really expand it's customer base, but GW has committed themselves to going after the teens using a new micro-hobby centre approach. I think it will really work.

Very small stores with 2 4x4 tables and a painting table and some product and that's it. If you want to see an example of this, I believe the GW store in North Vancouver is like this. I mystery shopped it just after they first opened it (though I don't live in the lower mainland anymore).

Kanluwen wrote:Technically, the LGS AND online retailer both are supposed to have held everything in the boxes much like Best Buy and GameStop are told to do with video games until the release date.

And Technically you're totally, absolutely incorrect. I am own two game stores. I have asked GW Trade repeatedly over the years if I need to follow the policy that GW retail stores do about the release date. I do this because I like to play by the rules my distributors and manufacturers set.

Every single time, I have been informed by GW Trade Sales that independent stores do not have to adhere to any street date, that is an internal policy for GW stores, and in no way, shape, or form, should an independent store feel they have to adhere to it. So I don't.

My nids came in Wednesday, I put them out sale on Wednesday. Sold a hell of a lot of codices and trygons that day too.

GW can't impose a street date on retailers. As a vertically integrated company, they have to be pretty fair in their dealings. If they told me (a direct account with them) not to put out models until Saturday, then they would also have to enforce a street date on retailers getting product through other game distributors, and would have to make sure none of their mailorder product arrived before Saturday. Rather than go to a hell of a lot of work that would cost money, and piss people off, they enforce it on their own stores, and no one else.

mikhaila wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Technically, the LGS AND online retailer both are supposed to have held everything in the boxes much like Best Buy and GameStop are told to do with video games until the release date.

And Technically you're totally, absolutely incorrect. I own two game stores. I have asked GW Trade repeatedly over the years if I need to follow the policy that GW retail stores do about the release date. I do this because I like to play by the rules my distributors and manufacturers set.

Every single time, I have been informed by GW Trade Sales that independent stores do not have to adhere to any street date, that is an internal policy for GW stores, and in no way, shape, or form, should an independent store feel they have to adhere to it. So I don't.

My nids came in Wednesday, I put them out sale on Wednesday. Sold a hell of a lot of codices and trygons that day too.

Then I stand corrected.

The FLGS I used to go(before it closed down in 2008) to was told that they couldn't put anything out before Thursday or Friday, at the earliest.

JJ's column.
Price increases in shorter and shorter cycles.
Lack of scenarios for tournaments.

Hey, codex creep slowed down on the 40k side. SW, Tyranids, and now Blood angles, all old armies all getting redone. And hey, Tau might be around the corner.

But the prices and staff they hire for GW have always made me angry, but it cant be helped.

Happygrunt wrote:Hey, codex creep slowed down on the 40k side. SW, Tyranids, and now Blood angles, all old armies all getting redone. And hey, Tau might be around the corner.

One downside is that DE is not around the corner.

nothing really, but they could make the sob and grey knights plastic and they should make stuff less pricey (i.e: the dreads- £25?! or the 'nid raveners- £27 for three and only 40pts each?!

Fact of the matter is, all hobbies are expensive. Usually, the term "hobby" means its going to cost money, more than we would like it to cost, but you are supposed to genuinely enjoy a hobby, thus your willingness to pay for it.

For example, i used to paintball in my spare time. Markers run anywhere from 200 to 1,000 dollars and a box of nice paint is 60 or more. Once i add the cost of additional gear, plus air, a place to play, possible rentals if needed. It becomes extremely expensive for a day of enjoyment. But i was willing to pay for it. Now that i turned 18 and got 2 jobs i dont even have the time to play, even though i have more money than i did then.

Warhammer models are in my opinion a good investment overall, hobby wise. I enjoy modeling, painting, and general game play. Once i finish modeling and painting the mini is there for a lifetime if i so choose. And i can play as much as i am able to with it. Yes a bloodthirster costs 57$ but its metal, and provides what i want.

The point is, i enjoy it, so its worth it. I currently dont have money to buy everything i would like to, so i buy what i can through alternative choices. Ebay stores sell at discounted prices, local listings, craigslist, fellow hobbyists looking to sell, discounts at FLGS.

GW is only as bad as you let it be. Its your decision.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And the PDF as a full-page FAQ, along with a full copy of the "long" rules.

How wonderfully disengenuous of your DD. The FAQ is about the tournament itself (locations, costs, registration, etc.). Not the rules of the game.

Games workshop ships a product with a few shortcomings and the fans don't realizing that a captive audience isn't particularly compelling when it whines.

Well, my codex arrived today (Saturday). The reason it took so long is because they sent it media mail. Which is like 37th class and explains why it took like 4-5 days from Memphis to the Philly suburbs instead of 2.

Anyhoo, because they sent it USPS media mail, it arrived via the regular US mail carrier, who bent the envelope in half and crammed it into my mailbox. Not his fault -- he didn't see any "DO NOT BEND" stamps on the envelope because they weren't there, and how the heck was he to know?

It's still bent, but I think it's salvagable and will straighten with time and flexing. GW is lucky in that I have an oversized mailbox and that it didn't *quite* get bent enough to become creased. If it had, I would have received a new codex and something for the trouble, I can guarantee you that.

And that would have been justice given that they caused my trouble because they went cheap on the shipping instead of taking care of an excited customer who preordered the product the first day I was able to do so.

This isn't really a "GW sucks in every way" rant. Just a reminder that for the love of God, don't ever preorder from them or buy from the online store if you can help it. Go to a reputable retailer with a clue and you'll end up with a far better customer experience.

ShumaGorath wrote:Games workshop ships a product with a few shortcomings and the fans don't realizing that a captive audience isn't particularly compelling when it whines.

The level of whining is proportionate to any gaps between customer's expectations regarding the level of the product's performance and the actual performance, given the price.

keezus wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Games workshop ships a product with a few shortcomings and the fans don't realizing that a captive audience isn't particularly compelling when it whines.

The level of whining is proportionate to any gaps between customer's expectations regarding the level of the product's performance and the actual performance, given the price.

Incorrect. Such gaps in quality and expectation are what cause market churn, the people on this thread still actively participate in the business games workshop is selling. Thus they have not been churned out. Thus they just have an overhyped sense of self importance and don't realize that words are wasted and the only true effort is to vote with your wallet.

so what? its our fault that GW sucks? and we should just keep our mouths shut?!?! (and wallets closed).
Pfffffffttttt. not gonna happen (well the wallet part maybe).
the customer always has the right to complain if hes dissatisfied with service and product. call it whinning if you like but the words getting old and lossing its power to make people reconcider. (if it ever really did) in fact keep using it and it will go the other way of words like Hooped and sick.
Whine = disatisfaction with company?.... well then whine away. its a positive in my book now.

so what? its our fault that GW sucks? and we should just keep our mouths shut?!?! (and wallets closed).
Pfffffffttttt. not gonna happen (well the wallet part maybe).

Then keep whining. They don't care. If you whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and keep buying the product they have no incentive to change. If you whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and stop buying the product they will listen to less whiny and better reasoned breakdowns for why their business model isn't working.

the customer always has the right to complain if hes dissatisfied with service and product. call it whinning if you like but the words getting old and lossing its power to make people reconcider. (if it ever really did) in fact keep using it and it will go the other way of words like Hooped and sick.

And the company has the right not to listen. This isn't some sort of equal exchange here. You buy their crap, they don't come to your house asking for a nice dinner in return.

Whine = disatisfaction with company?.... well then whine away. its a positive in my book now.

Then at least form better and more logical opinions, while using sensible page breaks. You don't need to hit enter between every idea.

i'll agree with everything youve said aside form the last point.
i like
to use
page breakes,
it helps me concentrate the point im trying to get across.
As for logical opinions, well.... thats in the hands of the person reading it.... it wouldnt matter sometimes here if i wrote a master thesis that could score 110% on a final, someone will always misinterpit, confuse, blur, side track, and well.... what ever you can think of. and as im never going to write a masters thesis, that just makes it all the harder.

Ack, have to agree with Shuma again (I'll go /wrists now).

Most of the people whining and bitching about GW keep buying their product. That is counter-productive. GW only cares about your dollar. As long as you keep giving them your dollars they'll keep pissing you off (though most peoples gripes are just gripes for raising post counts) and not changing how they do things.

If you bitch about how your gardener mows your lawn but you keep paying him anyway do you think he's going to start trying to satisfy you or do you think he'll keep doing it his way as long as he knows he'll keep getting paid? I know what I'd do if I was that gardener and it wouldn't be option 1.

ShumaGorath wrote:If you whine ... and stop buying the product they will listen to less whiny and better reasoned breakdowns for why their business model isn't working.

But their business model is working. They're going through a very typical cycle for national and international businesses. They had a slump after great revenue from a special product (LOTR) and they cut staff, closed non-profitable locations and generally reorganized things. They've been pursuing their plan of increasing royalty based revenue and have beat their own expectations for earnings in the last reporting period.

They have a plan going forward of opening micro-hobby centres with a table or two and much less square footage and staff as their traditional format. The goal for these is to recruit new customers by the demo sales process.

So they don't give a crap about what whiners like me have been saying for the last 5 or 6 years. And they shouldn't. We were wrong. All the GW doom and gloomers, of which I have been a particularly vocal member, were wrong. GW isn't going bankrupt any time soon and will likely grow their revenue from here.

I used to believe that all good businesses should focus on customer retention and repeat sales. But this isn't the case. A company that targets some shiny thing at 13 year old girls should not attempt to retain them as customers into their 20s and beyond. That would be silly. Similarly, GW should not attempt to appease the life long gamer-- they're the anomaly. The teenager recruited by the demo sales process and sticks around long enough for an army release or two and then stops is the norm. People who don't even play the game regularly are the norm. People excited about their stuff to play it for years and years (or even decades) and who love to talk about it on the internet are not the norm. Money spent on retaining them as customers is probably better spent on new meat.

frozenwastes wrote:

So they don't give a crap about what whiners like me have been saying for the last 5 or 6 years. And they shouldn't. We were wrong. All the GW doom and gloomers, of which I have been a particularly vocal member, were wrong. GW isn't going bankrupt any time soon and will likely grow their revenue from here.

I used to believe that all good businesses should focus on customer retention and repeat sales. But this isn't the case. A company that targets some shiny thing at 13 year old girls should not attempt to retain them as customers into their 20s and beyond. That would be silly. Similarly, GW should not attempt to appease the life long gamer-- they're the anomaly. The teenager recruited by the demo sales process and sticks around long enough for an army release or two and then stops is the norm. People who don't even play the game regularly are the norm. People excited about their stuff to play it for years and years (or even decades) and who love to talk about it on the internet are not the norm. Money spent on retaining them as customers is probably better spent on new meat.

This brings me back to my quandry that I brought up a couple of pages ago. I can understand GW not spending much money on retaining customers, but for the most part the things they'd need to do to get sales from veterans probably wouldn't cost them anything. It's be rules-related stuff, and they already have a rules design team employed full time, and clearly not working as hard as they could be. Surely GW corporates are interested in making money any way they can. Since all they need to do to make some more money off veterans (even if its only a small amount) is pressure the design team to create some additional army lists, advanced rules, FAQ's, chapter approved columns etc, why not do so? All it would cost them is a few columns of text on the website or in White Dwarf.

Am I missing something? Are GW game designers paid £x per project rather than a standard full-time wage? Because then it would make sense not to ask more of them, but otherwise it just doesn't.

Also, I'm still far from convinced that their current business model will be successful long term. The way they're focusing their efforts is bound to maximise profits short-term, but will likely destroy interest in the game/hobby long-term. It'll take a while, but I still believe they're painting themselves into a corner. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Samus666 wrote:
This brings me back to my quandry that I brought up a couple of pages ago. I can understand GW not spending much money on retaining customers, but for the most part the things they'd need to do to get sales from veterans probably wouldn't cost them anything. It's be rules-related stuff, and they already have a rules design team employed full time, and clearly not working as hard as they could be.

I had the pleasure of playing against Jervis about 10 years ago. I was playing Dark Eldar. I used a piece of wargear and he literally said, "What's that do?" It was a real eye opener that the guy who wrote the codex didn't know its rules. It happened twice more during that game. How are they supposed to design new armies with the old ones in mind when the people who write the things don't even know how they work?

It's a job for the designers. And productivity in a corporate environment is not always the highest. I totally understand a GW studio member wanting to do the least possible and have the least stress possible while still keeping his job. When it's 9-5, there's no reason to keep the hobbyist's zeal and excitement. I haven't seen any genuine love for the hobby out of the design studio since Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe left for greener pastures. Andy Chambers really pushed the envelope with quality "Chapter Approved" content-- those were exciting times to be building new 40k armies-- especially marines and chaos.

Also, I'm still far from convinced that their current business model will be successful long term. The way they're focusing their efforts is bound to maximise profits short-term, but will likely destroy interest in the game/hobby long-term. It'll take a while, but I still believe they're painting themselves into a corner. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Destroy interest in the game/hobby long-term? As long as fresh meat walks into the front door faster than it gets churned out, then that'll never happen. I've been predicting that GW neglecting customer retention would destroy their business for the last 10 years. Hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will over the next few years.

It depends what keeps the fresh meat walking in the door.

I have always assumed the presence of veteran players acted as a significant free marketing tool for GW. If true, then things would start to crumble if vets resighed from participation.

My other assumption is that the various IP spin offs (books and computer games) sell mainly off the back of the table top game. So any crumbling of the TT gamer numbers would quickly reduce licensing income.

I must express my delight at the new BA codex that is coming out.

That is all.

gorgon wrote:Well, my codex arrived today (Saturday). The reason it took so long is because they sent it media mail. Which is like 37th class and explains why it took like 4-5 days from Memphis to the Philly suburbs instead of 2.

Anyhoo, because they sent it USPS media mail, it arrived via the regular US mail carrier, who bent the envelope in half and crammed it into my mailbox. Not his fault -- he didn't see any "DO NOT BEND" stamps on the envelope because they weren't there, and how the heck was he to know?

It's still bent, but I think it's salvagable and will straighten with time and flexing. GW is lucky in that I have an oversized mailbox and that it didn't *quite* get bent enough to become creased. If it had, I would have received a new codex and something for the trouble, I can guarantee you that.

And that would have been justice given that they caused my trouble because they went cheap on the shipping instead of taking care of an excited customer who preordered the product the first day I was able to do so.

This isn't really a "GW sucks in every way" rant. Just a reminder that for the love of God, don't ever preorder from them or buy from the online store if you can help it. Go to a reputable retailer with a clue and you'll end up with a far better customer experience.

or get it sent to your local GW store.

Yeah, the one time I've complained with GW shipping. Got mine Tuesday. I could have driven 90 minutes on Saturday morning to Hobbytown and had it 3 days early and on the day of release.

Normally GW shipping is good but their free shipping is parcel post.

I don't really have any complaints regarding GW shipping.

Then again, I've never pre-ordered or ordered a soft codex or anything.

Toys that cost to much. Paint that costs to much. A catalogue that costs money. gak brushes that cost too much. A distinct lack of editors. Shirking responsibility on writing competitive rules.

But I still like 40k.