Open for Reservations!


The Saint Valentines Day Massacre is a two day Independent 40k Grand Tournament held in our new Gaming Bunker located at the Granite Run Mall in Media PA. This GT is part of Games Workshops new Independent circuit, and the top two overall winners will be given invites to the national tournament held at the end of the first season, in 2011, in Las Vegas.

Hosted by Mike Clark of Showcase Comics, and the NE BigGunZ gaming club.

NEW: Added a tournament FAQ , it's currently at the bottom of this thread, and amended at the bottom of this post.

Location: Inside the Granite Run Mall, 1067 W. Baltimore Pike, Media PA. 19063. The tournament is held in a separate area from the Showcase Comics store. Media PA. is in the western Philadelphia suburbs, about 2 hours from NYC, and 1.5 hours from Baltimore. The Mall is about 20 minutes off of 1-95 and the Philadelphia Airport.

Date: Saturday Feb. 27th, and Sunday Feb 28th. Three Games on Saturday, Two Games on Sunday.

Scedule: Check in on Saturday begins at 9am. Please check in at the desk and let us know you have arrived. Get ready to play, especially if your army takes a long time to unpack. Display bases are recommended, and can even give you some appearance points. Pairings will be posted 10:00 am.

Saturday
Game 1 10:15 until 12:45
Lunch 12:45 until 1:30
Game 2 1:30 until 4:00
Break 4:00 until 4:30
Game 3 4:30 until 7:00

Sunday
Pairings posted at 9:30
Game 4 10:00 until 12:30
Lunch 12:30 until 1:00
Game 5 1:00 until 3:30

Awards at 4:00 pm, (Assuming no chaos ensues.)

New: Registration may be done at the BigGunZ-NE website, http://www.biggunz-ne.com/index.php . This site is just going live, forums should be up soon, and we will be posting all the information for the events that Showcase Comics and the Big Gunz are hosting.

Army Lists must be emailed by noon on Friday, Feb. 19th. There will be a penalty assigned to your composition score for turning in lists late. A list turned in the day of the tournament may get you a 0, and may also prevent you from playing. Please turn in lists by the deadline. Email lists to MikenJudyc@aol.comI
I had originally asked for lists by the 21st, I am changing this to allow more time for judging lists. Some of the judges will be traveling 2 hours on the prior weekend to judge army composition, and doing it a day or two before, or by email, isn't going to work for 80 people. Please have your list in by the deadline. We will be judging lists the evening of the 19th.



Players: 80 spots available for the main event. Reservations must be pre-paid.

Cost: 60.00 pre-paid by Feb. 21st, 70.00 if paid after Feb. 21st. Your spot in the tournament is reserved only after you have pre-paid.
Registration can be done at the BigGunZ-NE website, http://www.biggunz-ne.com/index.php


Hotels: Quality Inn (610) 565-5800, right across the street from the Mall, newly renovated.
Media Inn (610-566-6500), two miles away, cheaper, and not nearly as nice.

Prizes: Overall 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Painting 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Best General 1st 2nd, 3rd, and Players Choice. We have over 2000.00 in prizes for this event, most of which will be ForgeWorld model kits. (And spiffy trophies!)

National Tournament Invitations:
In addion to our other prizes, the top two overall players will receive invites from Games Workshop for the Nationals in 2011. If one of those players cannot attend, the player with the next highest overall score will receive the invite. If a player has already received an invite from another event, then his invitation will be passed on to the next person as well. The National tournament will be held in Las Vegas in 2011, at the end of the first Indy GT season. The only way to attend this tournament is two earn an invitation by taking one of the top two spots at one of the independently run tournaments.

What you should bring: Your army, codex, rulebook, dice, markers, templates, tape measures, and anything else you need to play. Glue for repairs is recommended. FAQ's for your army, especially ones you want to quote to your opponent, should be brought along.

RULES:

Judges ruling is final. Judges may use several methods to make a ruling. These include: looking at rules in a codex or the army book, asking for explanations from each opponent, asking other people for opinions or advice, looking at official FAQ's, or rolling a D6. Judges will do their best to be fair and accurate. Usually we get it right, but sometimes we screw up. When dealing with a judge, be polite, have some patience, answer his questions. Do not repeat your opinion over and over in an attempt to somehow overpower his mental resistance. Very Important: If you have a rules question, ask a judge to look at the situation during the game. 99% of the problems we can fix in a game, we are unable to go back to after the game is finished.

Army Size: 1850 points. You may be under 1850, but may not exceed it.

Game Length: 2.5 hours per game. You should not start a new round if you will not have time to finish it. If games do go over the limit, both players must finish their turns, and will be encouraged to 'hurry it up so I can get the next round started and you can go eat.' In an extreme case, I reserve the right to say "You're done, this is how I score your game". Please don't make me do this.

Army lists: All current 40k Codices, and the Blood Angels list from White Dwarf are allowable. You must have an army list, preferable done on army builder, or typed, but hand written is acceptable. The list must show all costs for your armies models, upgrades, etc. It must be in a easily read format, without abreviations, so that your opponent can easily confirm that the army you are playing is the one you have in your list. You should bring enough copies so that if an opponent wants to keep a copy of your list, you have it available. WE WILL NOT HAVE A COPIER, COMPUTER WITH ARMY BUILDER, OR INTERNET ACCESS AVAILABLE IN THE BUNKER. Please remember to bring your lists. It's your responsibility.

Scoring: Battle Points worth 110, Painting/Appearance worth 20, and Army Compostion worth 20, for a total of 150 possible points.


Note that their is no sports scores. This doesn't give you leeway to be a jerk, cheat, slowhammer, or anything else that would generally get you docked by your opponent. You're at a GT, not your garage, and I expect all the big boys to play nice. I reserve the right to enforce that if I have to. In past events, I've seen very little that needed my attention, with a couple noteable exceptions. If you do have a problem with an opponent, treat it like a rules dispute, call me over, and explain the situation. Slowhammer, or deliberately slowing down a game is not exceptable. Neither is being a slow player and bringing a horder army. Respect your opponent and speed up your play. If a game only gets 3-4 turns, then somethings wrong.

Battles: Five games worth 22 points each. All games will use scenarios with several objectives. Kill points will not be used to determine the entire outcome of a game, neither will victory points. Objectives in one mission might be a combination of things such as taking an objective, points for killing the enemies HQ choices or troops choices, controlling a movable objective, or preventing an opponent from getting into your deployment zone. Scenarios will be posted after the deadline for army list submission.

Painting: Painting/Appearance is worth 20 points. Painting will be by a checklist, with a team of judges scoring each army. The same judges will score all armies.

Painting Criteria

Basing: (0-2 points)
0 points: Basic sand, flock, gravel
1 point: Drybrushed sand and flock, painted pattern, drybrushed resin.
2 points: Sculpted bases, intricate resin bases, overall army theme. Bases have been painted to a high level, or have multiple levels of drybrushed efects and basing materials for a natural look. Water Effects or sculpted flames. Time has obviously been spent on each model's base.

Coherency and Theme: (0-3)
+1 point: Army has been properly put together, with no mold lines, excess glue, or gaps in the models.
+1 point: A consistant painting style was used. Colors, techniques, and style draw the army together.
+1 point: Overall or consistant army theme. Models are obviously all in the same army, with theme, basing, colors, or conversions
giving the army an overall look.

Highlighting, Washes, Blending, and overall army quality. (0-7 points possible.)
0 points: Why is this army here? It's not fully painted. No, primer isn't a color.
1 point: The army is fully painted. It lacks most highlighting. It might have a wash put over it or be dipped. Might have a couple
models that aren't really fully painted.
2 points: The army has dry brushing or some highlighting done to it. Possibly just on characters. It's a decent tabletop army. Much
better
than what you see at the typical gaming store, but still not really ready for taking to a GT. Could be obviously be dipped
and some details done. Could also be a work in progress with just basecoats and a wash. Little fine detail.
3 points: Complex dry brushing with several colors, or highlighting with more than one layer. Use of washes. Some detail work
done on most models. Characters have had highlighting and fine details added. An average army that you see at a large
tournament or GT.
4 points: Several layers of highlighting with smooth transitions. No clumsy drybrushing. Detail work done on most models: teeth, fangs,
claws, skulls, shoulder pads, etc. Characters stand out from the rest of the army. Better than average tournament army. Could
also be an army that would score a 5 or 6, but has some obvious flaws that knock it down some.
5 points: Skilled use of blending, washing, and highlights. Good attention to detail. A high quality tournament army.
6 points: As number 5, but to a higher level. You could see this army could easily compete for best painted at most tournaments.
7 points: Superb level of painting. Every model has had a lot of time and attention. All small detail work has been done on each model.
Character models have had hours of work done on each one and stand out. You could easily see parts of this army entered in
Golden Demon and making at least the first cut. Armies will rarely get this score.

Fine details, free hand, banners. (0-3 points.)
0 points: Little work has been done on details. Maybe simple white on teeth or claws. Army is finished, but not much work has been
done on each model individually.
1 point: Small details painted on most models. Fangs, claws, eys, belt buckles. etc
2 points: Nicely painted banners, icons, eyes, and simple freehand work. Rivets on vehicles stand out, searchlights painted like glass
Shoulderpad icons, vehicle numbers, tatoos or warpaint,
3 points: Incredible detail, extreme freehand on banners, tatoos, or flame effects. Eyes painted on all models. Fangs and teeth have
multiple layers. Wiring, rivets, and damage on vehicles stands out.

Modeling and Conversions (0-3 points)
0 points: Not much done to the army. Very vanilla out of the box. Maybe a couple of small things, but not very generic and minimal..
1 point: Some models have been reposed or had extra equipment added. Character or general has custom work. A vehicle has had
some bits of work done to it. Minor greenstuff work. Head or weapon swaps. Trophy racks, etc.
2 points: Either most of the army has had minor work done to it, or the army has some pieces that have had major conversions done
to them. Custom models, large amounts of good quality sculpting.
3 points: Major conversion work has been done to the army, and it's very obvious at a glance. Vehicles has extra armor, battle
damage, and unique elements.
Note: Conversion probably is the most wide open of catagories, ecompassing many different things. Subtle variations to high elves or necrons might be harder to pull off than flashy things on Orks or Chaos. Judges may use their discretion to give points in this catagory for a number of things that just don't fit elsewhere. An example might be a full army of forgeworld Deathkorp models. They aren't conversions, but a huge amount of time and effort is put into the finicky resin models, and the effort can give the end result a very nice look.

Display Board (0-2 points)
0 points: No display board, or something you just use to move models around with. Does not match your army, little work done.
1 point: A Basic board. Sand gravel and flocking, hopefully matching the army. Does the job, looks good.
2 points: A themed display board with scenic elements that match the army, and adds to the overall effect when displayed with the
army. Even a fabulous display board is only worth 2 points, so these may have a wide range of skill and looks.

Composition: Army composition is worth 20 points. This will be decided by a group of judges prior to the tournament. All players must submit an army list by Feb. 19th at noon. We will be judging army lists friday the 19th, and Sat. the 20th. If we recieve an army list past the deadline, the player will recieve a -10 point modifier to his overall score in the tournament. We also cannot be judging lists the morning of the tournament. If you choose to not submit a list until the morning of the event, in addition to the penalty, you will automatically be placed in the pairings with a minimum comp score. Please don't be late with army lists. It is especially unfair to other players for someone to turn in an army list after we have posted up scenarios.

Army composition is based upon 1 main criteria: How competitive is your list, in tournament style play, vs. other army lists. A 0-5 score represents very competitive armies such as double nob bikers, Vulkan Thunderhammer Dual Landraider, Mechanized veteran guard, Nidzilla, Dual Lash 9 obliterators, and similar armies. A 15 to 20 score represents weaker armies that will have little chance against many of the armies they face in the tournament. An example of this would be a pure Grey Knights list, or an aspect warrior list with no transports.

Pairings: Matches for round 1 will be based on your comp score. Harder armies will play sarder armies, softer play softer. Pairings will be lined up by comp score, and if several players have the same score, randomized. Pairings for round two will group players into 3 brackets: Those that accomplished the primary objective in the scenario, those that only accomplised the secondary, and those that accomplished neither primary or secondary. Comp scores will then be used to arrange the armies withing the brackets. Rounds 3-5 will all be done the same, with only battle points used to make pairings. If at all possible, we will try to avoid having players from the same club play each other in Rounds 1 and 2. Usually this is possible, sometimes it isn't.

Scenery: All scenery on the tables will be arranged by judges, and fixed in place. Players may not move, add, or change scenery. The exception, obviously, is adding a crater when a vehicle blows up, as described in the rules. We will have suitable pieces of scenery available when this happens, to mark the area.
Tables will have roughly 20%-25% of their area covered by some type of scenery as described on page 88 of the main rule book. It is recommended that players discuss scenery before the game. If you have a question, ask a judge.

Dice: Electronic dice rollers or RNG apps may not be used. You must bring your own dice to play with. It is each players responsibility to bring a set of fair dice. With the proliferation of 'custom dice' with one or more numbers replaced by symbols, there has been concern that some dice do not roll with an equal distribution of numbers. There are a few ways to address this situation. 1) Don't use one set of dice for your saves, and another for your leadership tests. You may feel they are 'lucky', your opponent may wonder though if there isn't a difference in your dice. Please use all the same type of dice for all your rolls.
2) If you have custom dice, ask you opponent if he minds you using them. If he does, just use other dice. I'll have dice available in this event. 3.) A player may request that both he and his opponent use the same dice. In that case I'll supply a set of dice and you both use them. 3) Since you have the option to object to a players dice, don't scream about it after the game. If you want someone to not use custom dice, or you have 'a bad feeling' about someone's dice, ask for new dice. Don't complain about it after the game.

Also, please be aware that perfectly random dice can still roll 6's or 1's in strange patterns, it's part of the randomness. I've got a masters in stats theory. So someone "Making 16 out of 17 3+ saves" is perfectly fine to me. It's easily in the realm of possibilities for 80 people playing 5 games each. Someone rolling 40% 6's in over a hundred rolls isn't. If I have to, I'll check a players dice. This means rolling them over 100 times, and isn't something I like to do, but you can't show dice are unfair without rolling them enough times to take advantage of the law of large numbers. So use some common sense before claiming someone is cheating with their dice.


- All models in your army must be painted and have finished bases. Models that do not make the minimum standards may not be used. Minimum for an army is the entire model has at least one coat of paint, and there are at least 3 colors used on the model. Primer Coat is not a color. By finished base we mean some type of flock, sand, gravel, or painted pattern. Bringing an unpainted army doesn't just mean a zero in painting. It also means you don't play.

-All models must be WYSIWYG, or pretty darn close to it. A clever conversion that skirts the line, but draws applause from your opponent is cool. "My red bolt pistol is a plasma pistol" is not. Your opponent should easily be able to identify your models from your army list, and not be taken by surprise during the game. If your list says 'hunter killer missle', you need to have one. If you by searchlights, have them on the model. Grenades, extra cc weapons, and other small items are generally not something you need to model, especially if they are standard equipment listed in the army book. Since most all Chaos Marines have an additional CC weapon, you don't need to glue little knives on their belts.

-All models must be complete without broken pieces, missing arms or guns. I understand things break in transit and during games. Not worried about that, more about the guys that doesn't have guns on his devastators or arms on his orks. We'll have glue and zip kicker availabe for quick repairs.

-Part of WYSIWYG is using the correct models: "I'm using Bloodletters on big rocks for my Bloodcrushers because I don't want to shell out the cash." isn't acceptable. " I hand sculpted all my models" is probably is fine, assuming some minimum sculpting skill and they look like what they should represent. If you have a question, call, or email with pictures. The main things that would make a model unacceptable are: extreme modeling to take unfair advantage of rules, ("my monstrous creatures are crawling which why they are all only 1/2" high", "My battlewagon is 24" wide so I can pivot it to get an additional 8" of movement to unload my boys and assault first turn", ) or very confusing to your opponent. ("Dryads are bloodletters, ghouls are horrors, and the giant is my bloodthirster, don't mind the square bases.").

-It's a GW sponsored tournament. A preponderance of your army should be GW models, or converted using GW bitz.

-Base size: Models should be on the proper size base, compared to the newest models of the same type. All terminators should be on 40mm, all bloodcurshers should be on 60mm round, etc. Monstrous creatures with 6 wounds from the new Tyranid Codex should be on a minimum 60mm base, or the base the trygon comes on. If you are totally against rebasing your army, bring some blue tack and stick them on the correct size base for this tournament.

Questions? Contact Mike Clark at MikenJudyC@aol.com or ShowcasePA@aol.com, or call Showcase Comics at 610-891-9229. Don't assume that how you play in your local group is the same way it will be played at the tournament. If you have a question, ask it beforehand.

Tournament FAQ

Many people have been asking specific questions about rules, and others have been asking if we will be using any FAQ's such as INAT. After many hours of discussion, we are going with the following:

1) If you have a specific question about your army, please/email Mike Clark at Mikenjudyc@aol.com or 610-891-9229. Especially if it affects how you make the list. If I think that clarification needs to be posted, I'll add it to our FAQ.

2) All GW FAQ's and Errata will be used. Check the GW website for these.

3) We will be using the INAT FAQ, with a few exceptions, as a guideline for rules not covered by GW, or where GW rules are interpreted differently by different people. Specific rulings about specific situations occurring in games will still use the TO's verdict as the final say in all matters.

Exceptions to the INAT FAQ:

1) Hive Commander rule that gives a Tyranid army +1 bonus to reserve rolls may be used even if the Tyrant is not on the table. In a similar way, Imperial Advisors (astropath, and officer of the fleet) will still grant their bonuses when not on the table.

2) When a deepstriking unit is making the initital placement of a model, before scatter is rolled, it may not be place in impassable terrain, or over enemy models. This includes Mawlocs and Monoliths. (And to avoid the immediate question, yes, spore mines may be placed on top of enemy models.)

3) If a Hive Tyrant joins a unit of Tyrant Guard, and the unit is engaged in close combat, then for purposes of the Tyrant putting attacks on the enemy unit, and the enemy unit putting attacks on the Tyrant, treat the Tyrant as an Independent Character. (IE, models can pick out the Tyrant if he is in base to base with those models, and the Tyrant must be in base to base with enemy to put attacks on the enemy unit.)

4) The Spirit Leech ability from the Doom of Malanti does not affect units embarked inside of vehicles.

5) Valkyries: To shoot at a Valkyrie, measure to any point on it's hull. Wings and Tail sections are ignored. The Valkyrie measures it's own shooting and LOS from it's weapons mounts, as normal for vehicles. Use the base of the model for assaulting the valkyrie, and models embark/disembark to the base. If the model is immobilized, use the base as it's footprint, rather than placing the model on the table.

If you have questions, comments, or concerns, please feel free to contact me. -Mike Clark

Updated Hotel Information:

Just talked to the Quality Inn, across the street from us. They have a shuttle to the Philadelphia airport, for those flying in, and there is a lower room rate for that has been negotiated by the Mall.

Ask for the Specail Room rate for Granite Run Mall. Should be 75.00 a night.

wow.

For those of you who aren't local, Mikhaila's events are a really good time. This one promises to be no different! And his tourney "regulars" are a good bunch to play against, from hard to beat competitors to really funny people that love a great game.

Wish I could go, but my dang job always seems to crop up whenever a tourney or con gets scheduled!

I think this is going to be my first GT.

@OP: My army is fully painted, but unbased. Basing them is fixable in fairly short order, but its probably important to get clarification: My (wife's) orks are not traditionally painted.



Three color requirements are met, and some are quite colorfully painted (as you can see), and after a long discussion (argument) it appears that the basing that is going to go onto the orks is going to be a rocky terrain (pink glitter). Is this going to be an issue for the painting and soft scores? In terms of army composition, we're sitting at 70% troop choices with a strong theme and its own fluff and backstory related to the mysteriously powerful metal purpleanium, and I traditionally max out sportsmanship and army composition at RTTs, but painting is iffy because these orks are obviously not painted in the "traditional" sense that people expect.

IE: My wife paints the orks, she'll be coming to the GT if we come, and she will fly into a rage if someone says, "Orks aren't supposed to have pink pajamas, docking your painting."

Please inform.


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Got my questions answered, and aren't afraid of bringing pink jump-suited orks!

I talked to Mike on the phone - he's very friendly and helpful so don't be afraid to give him a call with any questions.

I've got my tournament reservation and my hotel reservation - see you all there!

Those boyz must have got into the harlequins supply of beer.)

Looking forward to seeing the whole army on the table.

I'll be there, flying the flag again for the Cold Steel Mercs. Currently planning on taking a very different army to the one I took to the Conflict in NY.

Yep, registered last week ( but no confirmation yet ).

I'll be popping out emails on monday with confirmations of people that have paid through paypal up to this point.

Nice avatar, Toxic. That's a great movie

The Everliving wrote:Nice avatar, Toxic. That's a great movie

LOL !

My wife paints the orks, she'll be coming to the GT if we come, and she will fly into a rage if someone says, "Orks aren't supposed to have pink pajamas, docking your painting."

I might bring my strawberry shortcake space marines so your wife's orks have some company. I got docked points for painting/theme at Adepitcon a couple of years ago but I don't suspect they'll be an issue at this event.

The Everliving wrote:

My wife paints the orks, she'll be coming to the GT if we come, and she will fly into a rage if someone says, "Orks aren't supposed to have pink pajamas, docking your painting."

I might bring my strawberry shortcake space marines so your wife's orks have some company. I got docked points for painting/theme at Adepitcon a couple of years ago but I don't suspect they'll be an issue at this event.

Indeed not. Having spoken to Mike, the judging for painting is based on model completion, shading, basing, whether the basing accents the models...IE, its quality and such - not whether your paint scheme fits into the traditional expectations for your race.

With "Rainbow Marines" being an official chapter, there's no way that any other marine chapter can be accused of using the wrong colors.)

By the fluff you have thousands of chapters, and some slowing sliding away from from Codex and into new terriroty. If it happens to by Strawberry terrirory, let the Emporer worry about it. I won't.)

And pink orks are explained easily. They met up with the Strawberry Shortcake Marines and Krumped the hell out of them, and stole their look.

mikhaila wrote:With "Rainbow Marines" being an official chapter, there's no way that any other marine chapter can be accused of using the wrong colors.)

By the fluff you have thousands of chapters, and some slowing sliding away from from Codex and into new terriroty. If it happens to by Strawberry terrirory, let the Emporer worry about it. I won't.)

And pink orks are explained easily. They met up with the Strawberry Shortcake Marines and Krumped the hell out of them, and stole their look.

See I was thinking they either allied with the dark eldar wyches or they kicked some booty of some slaanesh loving fellas(the second part of this statement is entirely false and cannot nor has it EVER happened).

This *IS* the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre, a tournament themed around Valentine's Day....for which the appropriate colors for everything are PINK and RED.

How could I do less than fit the event and bring the Pink Waaaugh!?

Dashofpepper wrote:This *IS* the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre, a tournament themed around Valentine's Day....for which the appropriate colors for everything are PINK and RED.

How could I do less than fit the event and bring the Pink Waaaugh!?

EPIC FAIL! It's themed around the Capone gang wiping out a chunk of Bugs Malones' gang using tommy guns!

Do I have to teach all you kids the wonderfully bloody history of our great nation?!


Strangely enough, 7 people getting killed was "The Crime of the Century", and led to huge ramp ups in government crimefighting and investigative agencies, shocked people around the world, and was a huge story for years. Now it's just a Saturday night and might not even make page 1.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Valentine%27s_Day_massacre

Ok ok ok .....a tournament themed around a gangland assassination on Valentine's Day.

So I have a Valentine themed army that is going to perform epic gangland hits on whatever takes the table opposite. =) Better?

Dashofpepper wrote:Ok ok ok .....a tournament themed around a gangland assassination on Valentine's Day.

So I have a Valentine themed army that is going to perform epic gangland hits on whatever takes the table opposite. =) Better?

3 cheers to that!!!!!

Only a month to the big event! Can't wait.

tempting, very tempting. Looks like my trip out East is delayed so I could make it...

I went to your site and its just a message board. I thought the rules packet would be up by now? How do we know if we got in? I sent my payment, but there is participants list up or anything.

hwelp.

If you don't hear from Mike here, then call the store. He's usually there from 10am till 5ish at least. 610-891-9229

Is there a website that shows who's registered and how many spots are left? Don't wanna pay and then find its full and I'd like some confirmation.

Kesher wrote:I went to your site and its just a message board. I thought the rules packet would be up by now? How do we know if we got in? I sent my payment, but there is participants list up or anything.

hwelp.

Send me a PM with the name you paypal'd the payment with and I'll confirm it for you.


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Kirika wrote:Is there a website that shows who's registered and how many spots are left? Don't wanna pay and then find its full and I'd like some confirmation.

A good amount of spots left.

I'm pulling a 16 hour day today to finish off monthly comic order forms, and then finishing the rules packet and putting it up Tuesday. Mean't to finish it over the weekend, and we got caught up working on scenery. I think we worked on over 130 pieces of scenery in total, and after a couple of 14 hours days and bits of sand, glue, and pink foam all over, I was too tired to type.)

Mike:

Where do we send our army lists to?

Also, I was just talking to a friend of mine on the West coast that goes to a lot of GTs; he mentioned that kill points are necessary to keep some armies in check from over-spammage - fear of losing because of sheer number of units they field min/maxed.

Don't know if you care or not, but thought I'd share.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Also, I was just talking to a friend of mine on the West coast that goes to a lot of GTs; he mentioned that kill points are necessary to keep some armies in check from over-spammage - fear of losing because of sheer number of units they field min/maxed.

Yes true I'm def looking forward to a well balanced GT much like Mechanicon, and Cabin Fever last weekend. Plus I know there are a lot of big names coming so plenty of competition around as well.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mike:

Where do we send our army lists to?

Also, I was just talking to a friend of mine on the West coast that goes to a lot of GTs; he mentioned that kill points are necessary to keep some armies in check from over-spammage - fear of losing because of sheer number of units they field min/maxed.

Don't know if you care or not, but thought I'd share.

There will be some things that give disadvantage to spamming huge numbers of units, there just won't be an entire game determined by kill points. Someone had asked early on if we were using killpoints to determine games. Missions will each have primary, secondary, and tertiary objectives. Some objectives in some games will be easier to get if you have a large army with many units. Some will be accomplished easier if you have a few small, elite units. Each game will be a bit different, with different objective, and ways to score points.

When asked if we were using kill points, I said NO, because it's not going to be the overall method by which you score points, and I didn't want someone assuming it was, and tailoring an army specifically to deny killpoints.


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Dashofpepper wrote:Mike:

Where do we send our army lists to?

Hmm, yes, that would be helpful info for me to post.) Added it to the original

Army Lists must be emailed by noon on Friday, Feb. 19th. There will be a penalty assigned to your composition score for turning in lists late. A list turned in the day of the tournament may get you a 0, and may also prevent you from playing. Please turn in lists by the deadline. Email lists to MikenJudyc@aol.com




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Big Gunz website is now up and running, and with it the online registration for tournaments.

Head over to http://www.biggunz-ne.com/index.php to register. Players that have already paid and registered will have their information added to the system.

Shameless bump for his event!

mikhaila wrote:

I'm pulling a 16 hour day today to finish off monthly comic order forms, and then finishing the rules packet and putting it up Tuesday. Mean't to finish it over the weekend, and we got caught up working on scenery. I think we worked on over 130 pieces of scenery in total, and after a couple of 14 hours days and bits of sand, glue, and pink foam all over, I was too tired to type.)

Mike, did you have a chance to post this yet?

The first post is now a work in progress for final rules. So if you notice it changing throughout the day, that's why. My computer coughed up a Hard Drive, and I'm slowly putting all the programs back on, and tearing up the office looking for my disc with Word/Excell etc. Final rules should be done by tonite as I get a bit done between customers, phone calls, and the general mayhem of new comics day.
-Mike

I am not sure this is a good idea in a GT format Mike.

"Army composition is based upon 1 main criteria: How competitive is your list, in tournament style play, vs. other army lists. A 0-5 score represents very competitive armies such as double nob bikers, Vulkan Thunderhammer Dual Landraider, Mechanized veteran guard, Nidzilla, Dual Lash 9 obliterators, and similar armies. A 15 to 20 score represents weaker armies that will have little chance against many of the armies they face in the tournament. An example of this would be a pure Grey Knights list."

So if I bring a crappy list I basically get a free massacre? Plus its a double handicap cause you use it for the swiss pairings.

I mean i'm not complaining. A good player, such as myself, that's well versed with any list, and has a amazingly converted and painted army could just get average battle scores and come out on top with this free points bump.

It just seems redundant and unnecessary. I mean GW's events didn't even use comp.

Kesher wrote:I am not sure this is a good idea in a GT format Mike.

"Army composition is based upon 1 main criteria: How competitive is your list, in tournament style play, vs. other army lists. A 0-5 score represents very competitive armies such as double nob bikers, Vulkan Thunderhammer Dual Landraider, Mechanized veteran guard, Nidzilla, Dual Lash 9 obliterators, and similar armies. A 15 to 20 score represents weaker armies that will have little chance against many of the armies they face in the tournament. An example of this would be a pure Grey Knights list."

So if I bring a crappy list I basically get a free massacre? Plus its a double handicap cause you use it for the swiss pairings.

I mean i'm not complaining. A good player, such as myself, that's well versed with any list, and has a amazingly converted and painted army could just get average battle scores and come out on top with this free points bump.

It just seems redundant and unnecessary. I mean GW's events didn't even use comp.

Comp is something that gets argued back and forth a lot. There will be quite a few different styles of GT's run this season. I use a comp system, Tony runs Mechanicon without one. Sports and Painting are also done differently for different events. For 'Ardboyz you don't even need paint. This tourament has comp as one component of the scoring. I don't mind talking about why I use it, the theory behind it, and its advantages or disadvantages, but for that I want a couple of hours, and lots of beer. Talk to me about it at the event, especially Saturday or Friday night down at Ruby's, or any other time I have a fermented barley drink in my hand.

We run a lot of different events, the next one up on March 20th is a Gladiator style event with no comp whatsoever.

Actually wihtout a sports score and with the tourney so heavily weighed on battled points his comp system isn't so bad. Most lists won't take big a kick in the teeth (though that depends on what he considers nidzilla or mech guard) which means it'll all come down to battle points. just don't spam an internet list and you'll probably be fine

I have a couple points to make which are meant for the benefit of attendees, not meant to bash the event. Having played in smaller RTT level events at Showcase, I have experience with the Comp system they use.

1- I am not in love with their Comp ideas on a GT level event. That means me personally, lots of other people do like it. I also have never been to a GT level event with this type of system so I cannot really see how it plays out. Sure I could MathHammer it, but until I play in one I cannot really see how it plays out.

I have taken lists to RTT level events at Showcase that I was shocked to find out they were considered rock hard by the Comp judges (5/30 in one event), and even with a very low comp score I won because I showed up with a well painted army and know how to play the game. The intentions of a comp score and the way it affects the tournament should have little impact on experienced players but instead helps keep inexperienced players from getting trounced from round one, have a miserable time, and not show up to other big events.

Even though I think their system may not my cup of tea I will attend for a few reasons - I like to play, I like to meet new players, and they are the events that I can attend since now my club and I are running our own. This will be the first major event there, so we will have to attend a brand new event to be able to critique properly. I have made suggestions in the past for their system and they have made changes (not sure if it was due my suggestion or on their own), but they will adapt as they run more events. An finally on this Comp thing - there are many other events with almost an identical system so it is clear that many players enjoy it.

2- All tournaments are now in the hands of folks who have the initiative to run them. Each event has many different things to offer and some have many different types of tournaments. We will have two 40K tournaments at MechaniCon this year. We will have the old style two day Grand Tournament and a Veterans level one day that will allow Forge World lists on Friday. Most people will not want to play against a FW list but what about the players who built Elysians, Krieg, Renegades, etc.? Our event is also more expensive because it is in a hotel/convention hall.

Showcase will have at least two types of 40K and two types of WHFB events this year.

Boston Brawl will have 40K and WHFB this year for their first event.

AdeptiCon offers even more events in one massive fun filled weekend!

The wide variety of events should help make many more players happy. Try as many events as possible and see which are the best fit for you!

3- All tournaments are now in the hands of folks who have the initiative to run them. This is not a typo! I did copy #2. We are responsible for running our own events. I have been posting for almost a year that folks need to work together and get events going. I attended all but one of the Baltimore GTs (broken leg/torn ACL a month before). I was crushed when they canceled them a few years ago. I reacted when they canceled last year and jumped on the opportunity to run an event.

While there may be some events that you may not think are ideal, try them out and make sure. OR if you think you can do an event yourself, give it a try. You will be surprised how much help you can get if you try. I cannot thank everyone enough that helped us get off the ground and now it is our turn to return the favor.

4- Hard list/Soft list/Nidzilla/Dual Lash doesn't mean anything in my opinion. I always play what I like. When I play my Revilers, I play fluff wise of a hard hitting strike force that cannot be slowed down by battle tanks- and yes that means even Tactical Squads become my core assault troops! My Tyranids are mostly 1st and 2nd edition models, so I play an ancient fleet that has not adapted with Zoats as my main Warriors. Enjoy your games and make new friends are what is most important to me. Winning the event is great - but having a great time is better for me.

5- I do not pull punches with my criticisms. I usually will be polite but to be fair I must be accurate. I hope I have given info here to encourage folks to try something new. It is like ordering something different on a Chinese menu instead of the same thing you always order.

Hulksmash wrote:Most lists won't take big a kick in the teeth (though that depends on what he considers nidzilla or mech guard)

That is my whole point, I like going to an event knowing what to expect. These days the cost of events, and even the travel itself is enough to give the average tourney cold feet. Add in a vague and objective component to it and its even more un-attractive.

IMHO If you are on the Indy circuit there should be a set of guidelines to be followed, for both scoring and organization of the event itself. I mean they, GW, can even hold back prize support etc if they are not followed.

Lets face it, the last two Circuit GT's, or first two depending on how you want to look at it, both involved shenanigans. We all know the winner of Seattle got his title taken away, plus Conflict/ Toywiz suffered from a similar objectionable comp system.

I just want to see these things stick around and see great coverage of people having a good time, rather than the past grumblings of events.

MBG

Kesher wrote:
IMHO If you are on the Indy circuit there should be a set of guidelines to be followed, for both scoring and organization of the event itself. I mean they, GW, can even hold back prize support etc if they are not followed.

Lets face it, the last two Circuit GT's, or first two depending on how you want to look at it, both involved shenanigans. We all know the winner of Seattle got his title taken away, plus Conflict/ Toywiz suffered from a similar objectionable comp system.

I just want to see these things stick around and see great coverage of people having a good time, rather than the past grumblings of events.

MBG

The best way to support tournaments is to go play in them.

Enforcing one rule set for every independent tournament will make a lot of them go away. Giving organizers the freedom to run events is the best way to get more events, with better quality, and variety, and GW absolutely doesn't want to have to play policeman to enforce things. Holding back prize support from players would just cast them as the villian of the piece.

The Indy tournament circuit wasn't set up to produce a national champion, standardize tournaments, or constrain TO's to a system. The prize support, invites to LV, and advertising on the website are all done to make it possible for more tournaments to happen. Instead of 3-4 GW run GT's, you're getting 60-70 independently run GT's.

If this tournament isn't something you're going to enjoy, or are unsure of, then don't worry about it and go to one you do like. Tony will be running Mechanicon, Da Boyz tournament is up in NY, and Boston Brawl will make it on the circuit next time around, and ICGT is down in Baltimore. Probably some others I don't know about as well. Go to the ones you think you'll enjoy, skip the ones you don't like.

I want to respond here but this is my idea about how things played out. I have not had as much interaction with the staff who worked on this new program as some people but I do know a bit about the details.

IMHO If you are on the Indy circuit there should be a set of guidelines to be followed, for both scoring and organization of the event itself. I mean they, GW, can even hold back prize support etc if they are not followed.

The Indy Circuit events were not created by GW. Some have been around a long time, some have one year in (like MechaniCon) and some are brand new. GW is not laying down the law about how these events should be run, instead they have set up a program to enhance these events with advertising, better prize support and a treat at the end in the form of the Invitational Tournament.

We knew about this before our event last year because I started calling Promotions in November of the previous year when GoGo was still there and when he moved on a new program was started. They did not approach us, we went to them and told them our plans and where we wanted to go with them. They did not headhunt us, we took the initiative.

There will be many rules systems for this National Circuit and 'Ard Boyz were even added as Invitational qualifiers, so there is a tournament with nothing but Battle Points being counted!

Clearly, with this being a brand new endeavor, there are bound to be some problems. If we work through them and make this a success then I hope GW will plan to continue the program and make it better for the 2011-2012 season.

I am not saying don't air your feelings, but instead I am asking folks to remember if we blow this we might not get another chance. Criticisms will be necessary to fix issues but before they get out of hand remember that there will be NO tournaments if it were not for the Independents (on and off the Circuit).

The invites to Las Vegas are bound to cause a heightened level of competition. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the added prizes. Each of the National Circuit events will get more prizes for their attendees than ever before without jumping through hoops, including Forge World! The jumping through hoops means not everyone may have been able to get the same level of Promotions Support (if you are not a retailer for example) or have the time to reach out to other sponsors. I am thoroughly pleased with what Ed and the crew have put together for their first time and I look forward to helping develop the future of our Organized Play with all the gaming fans out there.

Hey there.

Some input from me....

I play Orks. I think the comp score is a great idea. No one would argue that orks heavily lack anti-tank, or an answer to land raiders, despite being a big fish in my local pond, I've been absolutely monkey-stomped the last few days by mechanized lists that take away my mobility by turn2, and pretty much end me.

The fact that chimera spam / collosus / manticore lists and space wolf min/maxed lists and raider spam lists are going to face off each other in the first round means that if I play well, I won't have to see half of those armies. By game 3, 4 and 5....the winners will be at the top tables regardless of comp.

Short of taking nob bikers (which is easily answered by demolisher cannons, battle cannons, and so much more) I don't have much hope against mechanized lists. =p Short of taking my DE raider spam, and they're not painted, so I'm not allowed.

I hate sportsmanship. I'm a friendly gamer. Laid back during games...competitive; don't get me wrong; I love to win. Drunken half the time too. I find that sportsmanship is a means for people who lose to punish those who beat them. I've never been to a GT before, but I hear stories all the time from folks across the country about how people use sportsmanship to abuse the ability to stay in the running. *shrugs*

I'm looking forward to it.

I follow Mikhilia's posts here on Dakka and I have formed the opinion he is a good member of the 40k community. No matter what scoring system you develop it is just not possible that everyone is going to agree with everything you decide upon implementing. People will lobby for what they want, knowing what works best for them. It is the responsibility of the TO to come up with a scoring system that if fair. I would love to participate in this GT but my schedule is already booked up. There is going to be discrepanicies amongst the various Indy GTs run in the 010-011 circuit. The most important thing in my mind is to let people know how your scoring system works ahead of the event so people can decide if it's worth it for them to attend. If you screw up or do a bad job everyone is going to hear about it. To me it's a lot of responsbility to be a TO on the circuit.

G

Painting Criteria added to the first post. This should complete the rules package. If anyone has a question about anything PM me, email me, or give a call at the shop.

Lets face it, the last two Circuit GT's, or first two depending on how you want to look at it, both involved shenanigans. We all know the winner of Seattle got his title taken away, plus Conflict/ Toywiz suffered from a similar objectionable comp system.

There has been a lot of text devoted to talking about the GT in Seattle (so we need not hear it again here) but what was the issue with the comp scoring for Conflict? I know that some of the fantasy players had some complaints but from what I could tell there was no real bitching at the 40K event.

Do you know something different?

Alrighty I think I should post my opinons on this. I am not gonna say much except this. It is hard to plan and run a tourney if you don't believe me try it. Their is bookings, ticket sales, insurance, sponsors and this isn't even before you start building the terrain and forming your rules system. As Mike has stated their are a number of tourneys out their and if you don't like one well find another instead of griping about it. An organizer will do their best to make sure the event is fun but as one they have to have some thick skin thus not making everyone happy in doing so. If you guys have questions I say call him the number and contact info is on the first page. You can talk to him then instead of comming here and knocking a system he is using call and ask. He has several tournies this year and I am sure if you presented some great insite he will consider that for next year. All I am saying is get back to the brass tacs on this and lets save the comp questions for pm's or other forms of personal contacts..... OOO ya SHAMELESS BUMP!!!!

The Everliving wrote:

Lets face it, the last two Circuit GT's, or first two depending on how you want to look at it, both involved shenanigans. We all know the winner of Seattle got his title taken away, plus Conflict/ Toywiz suffered from a similar objectionable comp system.

There has been a lot of text devoted to talking about the GT in Seattle (so we need not hear it again here) but what was the issue with the comp scoring for Conflict? I know that some of the fantasy players had some complaints but from what I could tell there was no real bitching at the 40K event.

Do you know something different?

Feedback that I got from the dozen guys who I talked to was pretty positive. Yes, the Warmonger Boards lit up like a Christmas tree with multiple threads, but if you know all the participants, then you'd know it was actually a pretty tame week One main antagonist was Brian, who mostly loves to argue on boards for fun. He's actually a clubmate of Aaron, who runs the event. Ed Maule is the universal champion of 'Comp Sucks', and I was actually disappointed in his posts. He's toned down some in his later years.)

Conflict had a couple of hiccups, but overall was a well run tournament, and as evidenced by how many people had to be turned away. It will probably sell out faster next year.

Comp bunnies are so darn fluffy!

G

Just registered, looking forward to playing!

As an aside to the aversion to kill points, in my opinion kill points is the greatest addition to the game in 5th edition. In objective games multiple small units are king; objective games also make up the majority of game types and victory conditions. Thus, Kill Points, which penalized MSUs, even if only 1/3rd of the time, brought a very, very needed balancing factor to the game.

My biggest fear, however, is that if kill points are dropped in favor of adding victory points. Victory points also greatly benefits the multiple small unit army builds, allowing for a very easy way to inflate an armies effectiveness (while not adversely affecting an armies perceived composition score)--simply take more units!

That said, I did notice the bit about adding secondary mission objectives that will benefit armies with small numbers of units. I look forward to seeing what mission mechanic will perform this duty, and if it helps balance the otherwise more overpowering nature of the MSU army builds.

As a PS to the 'comp problems' of conflict, I think the issue was that the comp wasn't judged very accurately in a few instances. For example, the winning IG list had one of the highest comp scores at the event, and made use of the very short lived counter-attack furious charge stacking from space wolves via Straken to 180 some guard. GW rescinded this FAQ I assume due to its completely overpowered nature, but not before the IG list made use of it. That wasn't a fault of the player, who simply played by the rules, but nevertheless the judges definitely didn't see how the army worked when they judged it so highly.

My 2 cents anyhow.

Hey Mike, I'm going to register for the Massacre today. One question, though...will you be using the INAT FAQ for Tyranids since no official FAQ exists for them?

Edit: change 'probably' to 'probably should read it first'. A quick skim of the rulings has me all confused, and needs more than 2 minutes time before running off to work.

Cool...let me know. Honestly, I'll deal with whatever your rulings are. Just thought I'd ask since there are a few outstanding issues with the bugs.

Mike:

I previously paid, (sent final army list to you last night) - do I need to go to that website and register or anything, or am I already set?

AHHHH I wish I could get it all painted in time... will end up being like 30 some odd short in time to get it painted. Then sadly your fantasy in march is on my wedding day... i am getting away with adepticon and I don't think its a good idea to push my luck.

Oh man...I just read the score breakdown. :(

I'm sure my comp will do fine since I have a balanced list that has glaring weaknesses (cough, anti-tank), but the painting scores...

Everything will be painted and based, but our "gravel" is pink glitter, which can't be dry-brushed another color without diminishing its sparkle, and while I've done some clever conversions and magnetizing, nothing on the scale of model posing and shading that is being called for. >< I've been using cooking sheets as my display table to move stuff around, but haven't a "board."

I guess I'll count myself lucky that we'll be allowed to play, and we'll see how my very first GT goes. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:Mike:

I previously paid, (sent final army list to you last night) - do I need to go to that website and register or anything, or am I already set?

Your set, I took the names of the folks that had already paid, and added most of them to the data base. If anyone has paid and doesn't see your name there, PM me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And don't sweat the painting too much. One thing great about going to GT's is seeing armies done to a higher standard than what you may be doing. It's not something to worry about, rather, take inspiration from it. I went to the first GT in Baltimore. I'd never had anyone really look at my painting before. Paint was something you put on the model until you liked the look. Then I see some other armies, talk to the guys, and realize "hey, I could work on my painting a bit for next year!" It was a real eye opener for me.

Come on up, play some games. Meet new people, steal ideas, etc etc. I'll show you my ork army and we can have a beer and lie about who would krump who.)

Talked to the little women last night, and gonna bounce around the finances later this week to see if I can. Only thing is like I said not all models would be painted is that cool because of the 3 minimum rule?

My wife and I are freaking out too - I had to do some hard revisions on my army to make it even playable against "tournament" gamers, and while my poor orks probably still don't have a chance, I've now got several units that aren't assembled or painted and we're freaking out about getting them done in time. ><

Time pressure for a big event has been the biggest motivator of my painting over the past 11 years. It's a huge incentive. Best of luck!

If my list stands as is, which largely depends on how a few rules queries are ruled, then I still have to buy build and paint 1 zoanthrope, 1 trygon, and 1 carnifex which I have to convert to a tervigon. Not to mention my 2 spore pods which I haven't even decided how I'm going to do yet. Then I have to paint 3 zaonthropes another trygon and a couple gaunts on top of that. I'm in for it.

Mannahnin wrote:Time pressure for a big event has been the biggest motivator of my painting over the past 11 years. It's a huge incentive. Best of luck!

Pressure is always such a conundrum to me. I hate being under a time constraint, and yet I have so much fun when I'm trying to crank out a project. Some of my best gaming memories are of cranking out miniatures or scenery at 4am. I know my friend Tony, who runs Mechanicon, almost looks forward to painting in a hotel room the night before a GT.

Exactly! If you're not painting half (or fully) drunk in your hotel room on Friday night, you're missing out on part of the classic GT experience!

yermom wrote:If my list stands as is, which largely depends on how a few rules queries are ruled, then I still have to buy build and paint 1 zoanthrope, 1 trygon, and 1 carnifex which I have to convert to a tervigon. Not to mention my 2 spore pods which I haven't even decided how I'm going to do yet. Then I have to paint 3 zaonthropes another trygon and a couple gaunts on top of that. I'm in for it.

One of the guys at the shop did a pretty cool spore pod from a seashell, the type that spirals around itself and has a point on the top. He had a few tentacles coming out the opening, and a few nid bits glued on. Painted up to match his army, it looked awesome. You might check out stores that sell aquarium supplies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Empchild wrote:Talked to the little women last night, and gonna bounce around the finances later this week to see if I can. Only thing is like I said not all models would be painted is that cool because of the 3 minimum rule?

Are you bringing the traitor guard you've been working on? Saw some of the pics up on your blog. Looks good.I can see how you wouldn't want to rush those.

yes traitor gaurd, and thanks for the compliment. Will know tonight what I need to get painted up. Got out of work WAYYYYYY early(snow storm down south=me getting to leave) so I am cranking out the psykers and the chimera today while I wait on the plumber to show up. Damn garbage disposal.

I just realized something.

No killpoint missions does encourage MSUs and min/maxed lists, but there's something even more horrifying.

There's no reason that tyranid players shouldn't bring a 5 tervigon list. They'll start on the table with 6 troop choices, and spawn 5 addition 3d6 numbered troop choices every turn of the game until they run dry with no repercussions.

That would literally mean that if the tervigon player didn't roll any doubles, they could spawn 25 troop choices during a game, in addition to their starting 6 troop choices, 2 HQs, and other stuff.

.....seriously?

A) Each Tervigon a 50% chance to run dry each time it spawns, and every unit of gants within 6" takes 3d6 hits when each Tervigon dies. And if the gants aren't within 6" of a Tervigon, they get no special powers.
B) How many points is this, again?

Don't be scared.

Depends on the rules they're using. MechaniCon used a modified "kill point" system based on VPs. Units below 50%/damaged got half VPs as usual, but units entirely wiped out scored double VP value.

Maybe it doesn't quite penalize MSU as harshly as KPs, but those easy-to-kill 10 Termagant broods would score 100 VPs each when wiped out. So you could rack up a lot of VPs just by wiping out Termagants.

There are ways of getting a KP kind of effect without using actual KPs.

Mikhaila has each mission worth 22 points in total. I'm guessing he might be running the old "primary, secondary, and tertiary" objectives with the primary objective worth 12 points, secondary worth 6 points, and tertiary worth 4 points. So for example a mission might be:

Primary: Have more kill points then your opponent
Secondary: Control more objectives then your opponent
Tertiary: Destroy or have falling back all of your opponents HQ choices.

Meaning that while kill points don't account for the entire mission's scoring, they account for a large portion of it.

Just my guess.

Just for giggles, I popped up Vassal and did some 3d6ing. This obviously presumes you're using those gants to plow forward and keep the tervigons on the back table edge, out of range of as much as possible, and possibly getting cover depending on terrain.

5 tervigants:

Turn1:

#1: 3,1,5: 9 Termigants
#2: 1,2,5: 8 Termigants
#3: 5,6,4: 15 Termigants
#4: 1,2,5: 8 Termigants
#5: 5,5,4: 14 Termigants (dry)

Turn2:

#1: 2,2,6: 10 Termigants (dry)
#2: 1,6,4: 11 Termigants
#3: 6,1,4: 11 Termigants
#4: 6,5,1: 12 Termigants
#5: (dry)

Turn3:

#1: (dry)
#2: 2,5,6: 13 Termigants
#3: 1,1,5: 7 Termigants (dry)
#4: 6,6,4: 16 Termigants (dry)
#5: (dry)

Turn4:

#1: Dry
#2: 3,5,5: 13 Termigants (dry)
.....

And menopause sets in.

I created 12 troop choices in 3 turns, and a thirteenth on turn4 for a total of 147 termigants.

Foot slogging orks don't have a chance, even on the charge at I3 against those I4 units.

Shootas are a footslogging Ork army's friend. Even Sluggas can do damage.

Remember that gants are LD5, unless they're in synapse. If they're in synapse, they take extra Fearless wounds when you beat them in assault.

A basic termagant has 1 S3 attack if it's not within 6" of a Tervigon to give it extra powers. If the Tervies are hiding in back, they're not doing the extra power thing. If they're up close to give powers, then focus on the Tervigons, and blow up the gants.

A tooled-up Tervigon is over 200pts. How many are there going to be in a list? Especially if he's got to take Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, etc. to have some anti-tank? Bear in mind also the meta-game consideration that most people in attendance DO also play in environments where KPs come up regularly. How many people are going to a) convert/build extra Tervigons just for this event, and b) have time to practice using those lists?

How often do you guys hold/have these events? I'm an old 40k player thats just gotten back into the hobby recently and I am always looking for clubs or other gamers in the philadelphia area. I ask because I won't be able to attend this one

Mikhaila's stores have all kinds of events all the time. He's the man like that.

Not all of them are big GT-type events like this one. I'm sure you can find something cool to attend.

Brother-Chaplain Gaius wrote:How often do you guys hold/have these events? I'm an old 40k player thats just gotten back into the hobby recently and I am always looking for clubs or other gamers in the philadelphia area. I ask because I won't be able to attend this one

Pretty much continuously at this point. Since we opened up the Bunker on Jan 1st, we are trying to fill events in for most weekends. This year we have about 20 GW events currently on the schedule, 3 FOW 2 day tournaments, 1 Bloodbowl, and 3 Warmachine. And then I still have to schedule in the Apocalypse battles.

Upcoming stuff is a ETC style WFB tourney on March 6th, and an Apdepticon Gladiator Tournament on March 20th, exact rules as at Adepticon, for a warm up. Next GT after this is THE BIG SHOW!, which is 2999 Fantasy, and we will be adding 40k this year, at a higher points level than normal tournaments.

And then the normal crazyness of about 12-20 people gaming all day on most Saturdays and Sundays.

We like to game a lot.)

Mike...

My wife wants to know if spectators will be allowed. And if not, she would like to know if she can have a special dispensation for being "totally ossum"

*edit* She also says that she can help out if needed.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mike...

My wife wants to know if spectators will be allowed. And if not, she would like to know if she can have a special dispensation for being "totally ossum"

*edit* She also says that she can help out if needed.

Planning on distracting your opponents, Dash?

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Mike...

My wife wants to know if spectators will be allowed. And if not, she would like to know if she can have a special dispensation for being "totally ossum"

*edit* She also says that she can help out if needed.

Planning on distracting your opponents, Dash?

Good strat lets see where he goes with this one

Dashofpepper wrote:Mike...

My wife wants to know if spectators will be allowed. And if not, she would like to know if she can have a special dispensation for being "totally ossum"

*edit* She also says that she can help out if needed.

Spectators are fine. Better than fine Spectators are especially welcome.

The space is separate from the store, and has a good amount of elbow room.

Yes...my wife is planning on wearing a V-neck lowcut shirt and leaning over the table during my opponent's shooting phase to look closely at their models. *laughing*

Dashofpepper wrote:Yes...my wife is planning on wearing a V-neck lowcut shirt and leaning over the table during my opponent's shooting phase to look closely at their models. *laughing*

The kind of WAAC that no gamer will mind Do it!

They are a team.

G

Here's what we are going with for a tournament FAQ. I have vain hopes it won't generate many pages of discussion on the topics that have been discussed to death. We are using the INAT because it answers most questions and makes things easier for me as a TO. Some of us had concerns on certain rulings, so we compromised, and changed a few that people felt most strongly on. If you're playing in the tournament, feel free to contact me to discuss anything. (If you're NOT playing in the tournament, feel free to call me in 2 weeks, after the tournament, to discuss anything you want. Lots of scenery needs building in the meantime.)

Tournament FAQ

Many people have been asking specific questions about rules, and others have been asking if we will be using any FAQ's such as INAT. After many hours of discussion, we are going with the following:

1) If you have a specific question about your army, please/email Mike Clark at Mikenjudyc@aol.com or 610-891-9229. Especially if it affects how you make the list. If I think that clarification needs to be posted, I'll add it to our FAQ.

2) All GW FAQ's and Errata will be used. Check the GW website for these.

3) We will be using the INAT FAQ, with a few exceptions, as a guideline for rules not covered by GW, or where GW rules are interpreted differently by different people. Specific rulings about specific situations occurring in games will still use the TO's verdict as the final say in all matters.

Exceptions to the INAT FAQ:

1) Hive Commander rule that gives a Tyranid army +1 bonus to reserve rolls may be used even if the Tyrant is not on the table. In a similar way, Imperial Advisors (astropath, and officer of the fleet) will still grant their bonuses when not on the table.

2) When a deepstriking unit is making the initital placement of a model, before scatter is rolled, it may not be place in impassable terrain, or over enemy models. This includes Mawlocs and Monoliths. (And to avoid the immediate question, yes, spore mines may be placed on top of enemy models.)

3) If a Hive Tyrant joins a unit of Tyrant Guard, and the unit is engaged in close combat, then for purposes of the Tyrant putting attacks on the enemy unit, and the enemy unit putting attacks on the Tyrant, treat the Tyrant as an Independent Character. (IE, models can pick out the Tyrant if he is in base to base with those models, and the Tyrant must be in base to base with enemy to put attacks on the enemy unit.)

4) The Spirit Leech ability from the Doom of Malanti does not affect units embarked inside of vehicles.

5) Valkyries: To shoot at a Valkyrie, measure to any point on it's hull. Wings and Tail sections are ignored. The Valkyrie measures it's own shooting and LOS from it's weapons mounts, as normal for vehicles. Use the base of the model for assaulting the valkyrie, and models embark/disembark to the base. If the model is immobilized, use the base as it's footprint, rather than placing the model on the table.

If you have questions, comments, or concerns, please feel free to contact me. -Mike Clark

Thanks for the clarifications, Mike. I keep forgetting to officially register, but I'll get signed up and paid up tonight. Looking forward to the tourney!

As a reminder to folks coming, please turn in your lists tonite/early tomorrow. Several people are driving up to two hours so we can go over the lists for errors, and do the comp scoring friday night. You can email lists to me at MikenJudyc@aol.com

Please give me a call at the shop if anyone has a question 610 891 9229

Last day to register at 60.00 is the 21st, after that the price goes up to 70.00. The penalty 10 bucks is there for a reason. Renting extra space from the mall at the last minute to accomodate more people costs us. We'd rather know who's coming, than be scrambling at the last minute to fit you in.

I emailed my list to the address sent to me in the reminder email, but if I recall it's not the address you just posted, should I resend the email to that address.

*looks around furtively for scenarios*


=)

I am in agreement with your rulings for the Tyranid codex. Good job! I wish I could make it out for this one! I'm sure it's going to be a great event.

G

yermom wrote:I emailed my list to the address sent to me in the reminder email, but if I recall it's not the address you just posted, should I resend the email to that address.

Either was fine. We just set up that new email, which we'll use from now on, as it redirects to all 3 of us that are acting as TO's throughout the year. This way there is one email for sending in lists, and all of us get them. Built in redundancy.

Dashofpepper wrote:*looks around furtively for scenarios*


=)

Scenarios are finished up, and I have two people checking them over for me for typos, (or suckiness), and I will be posting them up on Tuesday Night / Wednesday morning. We will have copies for of them posted at the tournament, and at each table. If you want a copy of your own, print one off after they are posted.

Awesome!

My gameplay revolves around "WAAAAUGH!!! KILL DEM STUMPIES!" for four turns.

Followed by a turn5 realization that I should check the scenario and see what the mission is.

Figure if I can see them in advance and talk about them with someone, maybe I'll be able to apply some kunnin' tricks and play to the mission.

Yeah-it always bewilders me completely when my opponent (who is usually otherwise a competent player) doesn't even look at the scenario until turn 5.

LOOK AT THE SCENARIO BEFORE THE GAME STARTS!
UNDERSTAND IT COMPLETELY!

SVDM - SCENARIOS!





I'm posting these here so folks can get an idea of the scenarios. I reserve the right to fine tune them, fix typos, etc. Final copies passed out at the tournament will be used. Please keep this in mind.

Format may be wonky, it's just a copy/paste job. It will get cleaned up when it goes on the BGNE site, and in the final draft.

As always, send me questions at Mikenjudyc@aol.com (If you aren't playing in the tournament, feel free to ask me questions next week. Sorry, busy.)

Mission 1: Scorched Earth


(This mission takes inspiration from the new Battle Missions book, page 14)


Setup: Before the game starts, players will need to place 5 markers on the table, as detailed in 'Seize Ground' mission on page 91. Ignore the part about d3+2 markers, and use 5 markers.

Game length: Normal, as per the rulebook. (Random 5-7 rounds)


Deployment: Spearhead, page 93.
(Please note, that the first player picks a long table edge, and deploys his forces into one of the quarters adjacent to that table edge. Reserves may move onto the board from anywhere along his long table edge, not just from the portion in his deployment zone.)


Special Rules: All pieces of area terrain, and ruined buildings, are either on fire, or a smoking ruin. After placing objective markers, roll a D6 for each piece of area terrain, or ruins (model could not be placed in the terrain, you do not have to roll for it.) and refer to the following table:


1-3 The terrain is on fire and burning. Count the terrain as dangerous.
4-6 The terrain is a smoking ruin. Models inside the terrain may add +1 to any cover saves.
(If a model is in terrain, and does not have a cover save, it does not gain a bonus at all.)


All other rules such as infiltrate, reserves, seize the initiative, are used.


Scoring:


Primary Objective: Control more markers than your opponent.
(10 points. In the case of a tie, neither player scores points.)


Secondary Objective: Score more kill points than your opponent.
(7 points.)


Tertiary Objective: Destroy all of your opponents HQ choices.
(4 points.)


Bonus Point: Have one of your HQ choices in the enemy deployment zone.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________








Mission 2: Death to my Enemies!!

I don’t care how many of you milksops die out there. Casualties don’t matter. I won’t shed a tear if everyone on this Emperor forsaken planet dies. I only care about stopping the bugs for one more day. “
Colonel Jameson of the 11th planetary brigade, Lee’s World



Setup: Use the Pitched Battle setup on page 92


Deployment: As Pitched Battle


Special Rules: All normal rules are used (infiltrate, seize the initiative, reserves, etc)


Game Length: 6 Turns




Scoring:


Primary Objective: There is only one objective. Kill the enemy. It is possible for both players to score next to nothing, or for both to achieve a near perfect score.


Scoring: Battle points are determined by the number of victory points scored in the game. Victory Points (VP), are equal to the points cost of the unit destroyed, as follows:
-Wounded Independent characters give half their victory points.
-Damaged Vehicles give half of their victory points. (immobilized or weapon destroyed)
-Immobilized vehicles with no weapons left count as destroyed for purposes of VP.
-Units taken below half, or below half, of their starting wounds, give half VP.


Victory Points Tournament Score


350 to 500 2 points
501 to 650 4 points
651 to 800 6 points
801 to 950 8 points
951 to 1100 10 points
1101 to 1250 12 points
1251 to 1400 14 points
1401 to 1550 16 points
1551 to 1700 18 points
1701 to 1850 20 points


Bonus Point: Have an HQ choice left at the end of the game. Someone has to accept a medal, after all.
Bonus Point: Your surviving HQ choice is in the enemy deployment zone, planting the flag while accepting that medal.


Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________


Mission 3: 40k Football


(A sacred relic of Saint Lombardi has been found. Legend claims that if the inflated pigskin is placed behind enemy lines, victory will be ours! So get out there, and win one for the Emperor!)


Setup: One marker in the exact center of the table.


Deployment: Pitched Battle, as per the rulebook, page 92.


Special Rules: Onside Kick - Seize the initiative will happen on a 5-6.


Game Length: Normal Game Length. (Random 5-7 turns.)




Scoring:


Primary Objective: Place an objective marker in the center of the table at the beginning of the game. This is represented by a small round base. This is the 'football.' Any infantry unit can pick up the football. The unit must not be in a transport. To pick up the football, the unit must have one of its models in base to base contact with the football at the end of the movement phase. They will carry the football until the unit is destroyed, flee, embark into a transport, go to ground or get pinned. If any of these things happens, the unit has 'fumbled' the football. The opposing player may immediately place the football within 2” of the unit that lost the ball, not in impassable terrain. If the unit was destroyed, it is placed within 2” of the last model killed. If the unit was destroyed in hand to hand, one of the units that destroyed them may immediately claim control. At the end of the game the side with the football wins the primary objective. If no one side has the ball at the end of the game neither side gets the points for this objective.
(10 points)


Secondary Objective: Kill anyone that touches the ball! Destroy all of your opponents infantry.
(7 points)


Tertiary Objective: Sack the Quarterback! Destroy all of the enemies HQ choices.
(4 points)


Bonus Point: Touchdown! At some point in the game, one of your units controlling the ball had at least one model in the enemies deployment zone.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________








Mission 4: Dawn Raid


(Catching the enemy by surprise before he had his morning coffee was a great idea, unfortunately, he was thinking the same thing.) This mission takes some inspiration from the 'Dawn Raid' mission on page 26 of the new Battle Missions book.


Setup: Divide the table into quarters. Place an objective marker in the center of each table quarter. Players each roll a d6, with the highest rolling player choosing a table quarter. The second player will deploy in the table quarter diagonally across from the first player. The table edge for each player will be the portions of the long and short table edges that form part of his deployment zone. The portion of table edge between the two players deployment zones should be marked as 'right' and 'left' for purposes of outflanking units.


Deployment: The first player may deploy any of his fast attack choices, and troops choices mounted in dedicated transports. Any of these units that he chooses not to deploy will be held in reserve. All other units will be held in reserve as well.
The second player may then deploy any fast attack choices, and troops choices mounted in dedicated transports.






Special Rules: Night fighting rules are used on turn 1. At the end of turn 1, roll a d6 and on a 4+ night fighting will be used for turn 2 as well. Night fighting is not used in turn 3 on.
All other rules such as reserves, outflanking, infiltrate, etc are used.

Game Length: at the end of turn 6, roll a dice. On a 4+ play a 7th turn, otherwise, the game ends on 6 turns.




Scoring:


Primary Objective: Control the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone.
(10 points)


Secondary Objective: Control both objective markers in the neutral table quarters ( The ones that neither you or your opponent are deploying in.)
(7 points)


Tertiary Objective: Destroy all of your opponents fast attack choices. If you're opponent did not field any fast attack choices, you may meet this objective by destroying all of their troop choices that have dedicated vehicles. If they have no troops with dedicated vehicles, you gain it for destroying all their HQ choices.
(4 points)


Bonus Point: Have a fast attack choice within 6” of the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone at the end of the game.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________


Mission 5: Annihilation


(Destroy the enemy, steal his stuff, and someone keep the beer back at camp safe.)


Setup: This mission uses the 'Capture and Control' and 'Pitched Battle' rules on page 91 and 92. (Each person has one objective, setup along the long table edges.)


Deployment: Pitched Battle, page 92


Special Rules: All rules such as infiltrate, seize the initiative, reserves, outflanking, etc are used.


Game Length: Standard Game Length as on page 90. (Random game length of 5-7 turns.)




Scoring:


Primary Objective: Control the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone.
Contesting the objective is worth 5 points.
(10 points)


Secondary Objective: Kill points. The player with the most Kill points, as described in the book,
on page 91
(7 points)


Tertiary Objective: Retain control of your own objective point.
(4 points)


Bonus Point: Have an HQ choice within 6” of the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________

I'm not attending-so unbiased commentary

I like them overall. There's not one that jumps out at me as "Wow, that's an auto-lose for a bunch of armies."

Minor commentary:

Missions 1-2 are fine IMO.

Mission 3: I winced as soon as I saw "Football" but this is a much better "Football" mission than usual-it's not just a draw machine. Kudos.

Mission 4: The deployment rules seem to hurt armies with no real usable FA slots vs. those that do (CSM or Orks vs. Typhoon Spam, Vendettas, etc.). To balance this, maybe have a "nearby" option like in DoW so that players can auto-get all their stuff on their turn 1 if they want it immediately or leave it in reserve if they want to play reserve games? This is the one real issue I have with the missions.

Mission 5: I think that you have it right here. This is a Win Big, Win Small, or Lose Big mission which will help you sort out the top tables at the end.

GW has put in some changes to the Ork FAQ. Of note, down at the bottom, is a clarification on Deffrollas ramming vehicles. INAT had ruled you could not. Since GW has said that 'yes you can', we will be playing the rule that way from now on.

ttp://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m970066a_2010_Orks_FAQ

How this affects the tournament:

-If you have a deffrolla in your list, it now can ram vehicles.

-Players, Ork or non-ork, will not be allowed to adjust their lists. It is just to close to the tournament, would necessitate judging comp on those lists again, and would get in the way of the work we need to do to make the tournament run smoothly. I would also like to put up Scenarios this afternoon, and can't if people are changing lists.

So if you have a deffrolla, it got better. If you don't, you didn't lose anything.

Bad timing on their part, but my future ork army lists will rejoice!!! *cheers*

Mission 4: The deployment rules seem to hurt armies with no real usable FA slots vs. those that do (CSM or Orks vs. Typhoon Spam, Vendettas, etc.). To balance this, maybe have a "nearby" option like in DoW so that players can auto-get all their stuff on their turn 1 if they want it immediately or leave it in reserve if they want to play reserve games? This is the one real issue I have with the missions.

I'll discuss this with the crew, thanks for the feedback. And noticed that I'll need to fix that small error, where I say how the first player deploys, and ignore how the second player deploys.)

Your mission 2 has 20 available battlepoints compared to the others all having 21 (10, 7, 4)

I don't know if that's intentional or not; just pointing it out.

It has one bonus point at the end, for 21. I'll make that clearer. I could just be construed as fluff, the way I wrote it.

Thanks

Missions look fine other then Mission 4 does not describe how player 2 deploys.

Would it be possible to post all the army lists to see what people are playing or at least the army lists of the winners if thats too much work? The European online tourneys always did this and it was interesting to see what people played.

Kirika wrote:Missions look fine other then Mission 4 does not describe how player 2 deploys.

Would it be possible to post all the army lists to see what people are playing or at least the army lists of the winners if thats too much work? The European online tourneys always did this and it was interesting to see what people played.

It wouldn't be too bad, if they all came to me in the same format. But some are army builder, others just typed, some handed in, some by email, and even a couple handwritten. If I get a volunteer to type them all up, it's possible. Not probably, but possible.)

mikhaila wrote:It has one bonus point at the end, for 21. I'll make that clearer. I could just be construed as fluff, the way I wrote it.

Thanks

If I read correctly, all missions have a bonus point available, except that mission 2 just has 21 possible points (including bonus) opposed to the other rounds having 22 (including bonus point?)

I could well be reading it wrong.

Dashofpepper wrote:

mikhaila wrote:It has one bonus point at the end, for 21. I'll make that clearer. I could just be construed as fluff, the way I wrote it.

Thanks

If I read correctly, all missions have a bonus point available, except that mission 2 just has 21 possible points (including bonus) opposed to the other rounds having 22 (including bonus point?)

I could well be reading it wrong.

ah, I see. Yep, you're right, I need another point in there.
thanks

Also, in mission 4, there are 5 objectives, one of which is in the center. The center objective, however, has no effect on victory.

DevianID wrote:Also, in mission 4, there are 5 objectives, one of which is in the center. The center objective, however, has no effect on victory.

Can't believe I missed that one. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:

DevianID wrote:Also, in mission 4, there are 5 objectives, one of which is in the center. The center objective, however, has no effect on victory.

Can't believe I missed that one. =p

Ah, that was there from the mission I adapted in the battle missions books. Thanks, I can remove that since it's not needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edited missions to correct the missing point, and the extraneous objective. So much easier with several sets of eyes looking things over, thanks guys.

Can I recommend switching mission 2 and 3?

Reason being, you had mentioned that round 1 and 2 would be sorted via comp scores. I would much rather play round 3, football, with someone ~@ my comp/skill level, thus I would like round 2 to be "football."

Since round 2 currently rewards killing each other, I see two low comp armies both easily scoring 18ish, where as 2 high comp armies, by definition less killy/weaker than others, will have a hard time racking up gigantic wins versus their mirrored opponent with similar comp/skill, leading to maybe 8ish points each. Football, which has a reward for winning the game, as opposed to just killing stuff, seems a better round 2 comp paired mission.

Plus, since round 3 starts the mixed comp bracket, as it stands currently if a low comp army, which still would have gotten a potential 18 points in round 2 even if he got tabled, plays against a high comp army, the low comp is more likely to control the game of football leaving the poor high comp opponent with almost 0 points. At least if the rounds were switched, the maximum the low comp force could get is a 20 off a high comp weaker force (since round 2 currently has the fewer points, it wouldn't need to change) and the high comp force could still earn some points off the better/stronger low comp force for killing a few units, even if the low comp force ends up tabling the poor guy!

Wall of text done, hope my analysis serves as a useful tool!

If it counts for anything (and it doesn't) I like the idea. I think I'm one of those high-comp weak armies. =p

Can bikers pick up the football in mission #3?

Kevin Nash wrote:
Can bikers pick up the football in mission #3?

Oh...snap! Good call there.

24" movement per turn with troops; game could be over on turn2. =p

Mikhaila, I've run into this in a tournament before, they had a rule about the football only being able to move 6" during the movement phase (with a normal run) and being dropped in assault - but instead of a football, they had a wounded hostage or some such, and could only move as fast as the hostage for fluff reasons to get around bikers.

Kevin Nash wrote:
Can bikers pick up the football in mission #3?

Probably not since they are not infantry.

Mike,

I have some issue with the Dawn Raid scenario.

What about changing the troop portion to any troop instead of troops in dedicated transports? I know 5th is a mech heavy edition, but not everyone uses transports. This scenario benefits armies that are mechanized while hurting a foot slogging list. Nids and necrons wouldnt have a troop model on the table since they cant place their troops in transports. Plus you are making a slogging army walk 36 inches to just get to an objective since they are coming in from reserves. Which gives them no chance to fire a heavy weapon. Additionally, your bonus point for this mission only allows for FA units to claim this. What if the guy is not playing with any FA units? I ask this because I have no FA in my army. This should be changed to match the Tertiary objective conditions.

This scenario reminds me of the old 3rd and 4th edition Heavy Doc scenario. The scenarios should be balanced and not favor any one play style (Mech or infantry).

Just my thoughts.

PS. Kinda sucks that there are so many objective scenarios. 4 out of the 5 require an objective to win. But that is just my opinion.

We're looking at that one, and will probably make adjustments, based partly on feedback here.

Panurgle wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:
Can bikers pick up the football in mission #3?

Probably not since they are not infantry.

Gee I hope no one is playing a biker list. They just auto lose that mission.

Kevin Nash wrote:

Panurgle wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:
Can bikers pick up the football in mission #3?

Probably not since they are not infantry.

Gee I hope no one is playing a biker list. They just auto lose that mission.

Good point.
But I do think the rule book (pg 4 in small book) separates units by types: infantry, monstrous creatures, beast/calvary, walkers, jump infantry, jetbikes/bikes, artillery, and vehicles.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:
Can bikers pick up the football in mission #3?

Oh...snap! Good call there.

24" movement per turn with troops; game could be over on turn2. =p

Mikhaila, I've run into this in a tournament before, they had a rule about the football only being able to move 6" during the movement phase (with a normal run) and being dropped in assault - but instead of a football, they had a wounded hostage or some such, and could only move as fast as the hostage for fluff reasons to get around bikers.

That's why bikers, jump infantry, beasts, etc cannot pick up the ball, and why you can only pick up the ball at the end of the phase. Saw this played once where the unit could grab it by moving over it. Bad rule.) Turboboosting bikes grabbed it immediately, headed back to their board edge, and never lost the ball as they turboed around the board.

Pretty sure we have 0 all bike armies in the tournement. Did see two for 'Ardboyz regionals last year though. And there are 11 other points to get that don't need you to pick up the football.

Great scenarios. Real inspired stuff here. As an infantry based player though I was really disappointed to read scenario 4. Having my entire army in reserve will pretty much take me out of the game without even rolling any dice. If I am lucky enough to have a scoring unit show up from reserve on turn 2 I will have to REALLY start trucking to have any hope of making it to just plain contesting my opponent's objective....since I'll be spending all of my time slogging and running I will hardly have any energy to also SHOOT the guy to try and get him off his objective.

I understand wanting to have a quirky scenario that benefits players who brough heavy mech/fast attack lists, but I think they benefit just a tad too much. Perhaps to change it: "you may deploy all fast atttack and 2 troop selections (kind of like how dawn of war works but with FA taking the HQ slot)....rest comes on turn one like dawn of war"????

Thanks for reading, I am excited for the tournament. I really appreciate our chance to give input and I'm happy with the other 4 scenarios.

I understand wanting to have a quirky scenario that benefits players who brough heavy mech/fast attack lists, but I think they benefit just a tad too much. Perhaps to change it: "you may deploy all fast atttack and 2 troop selections (kind of like how dawn of war works but with FA taking the HQ slot)....rest comes on turn one like dawn of war"????

Yep, does need some fixing. I'll put this with the other imput on it. Scenarios should be interesting, but not at the expense of making them crippling.

I am enjoying getting the feedback and doublechecking here on Dakka. Having a lot of eyes and brains looking at things helps. Better to catch my errors now, then have to live with them in the tournament.)

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but scenario 2 says: "Units taken below half, or below half, ..."

Little catch


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That brings up a good point actually.....

How are victory points calculated for combat squads that have been split up? How about for units of monsters?

NotMatthew wrote:Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but scenario 2 says: "Units taken below half, or below half, ..."

Little catch


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That brings up a good point actually.....

How are victory points calculated for combat squads that have been split up? How about for units of monsters?

For units of monsters, if they lose half their wounds, or more than half their wounds, they count as half VP of the original unit. So 3 carnifexes is 12 wounds. Get them to 6, and you get half the points. 3 lictors is 9 wounds, so you need to drop them to 4 wounds in the brood for half points.

For combat squads, treat each squad separately and as if they were worth 50% of the original squad.

And thanks for the catch on units below half, or below half...man I was up late typing that night.) Will change that to units taken to half, or below half.

The intention is that if you bring down a unit to half strength, you get half points. My wording obviously needs to convey that better.)

I think one of your missions should be nightfight all game. *coughs*

Also, ork players should get +1 attack during their Waaaugh, which should last the whole game. *looks around suspiciously*

Your all in for a treat when you see the tourney room, its to die for.

Hopefully you see this before we pull out in the morning for a 7 hour jaunt - the weather says flights are cancelled, PA is getting bad storms; any chance the GT will be canceled? I don't want to drive up and drive back. ><

Is there a possibility of this event being canceled due to the snow storm? They're saying like a foot.

Currently, I think the problem with flights are the very high winds. We really haven't gotten much in the way of snow yet. I just checked, and there is less than an inch where I'm at. I live about 5 miles NW of the Philly airport. Internet has pretty garbled reports for weather. Lots of the same info copied from site to site, and saying we are getting way more than what the local weather services predict.

Locally, they are saying my area might get 3-6 inches overnight, and then next to nothing most of friday, nothing saturday. Lots of the generic 'weather.com' sites say 4-6 tonite, and 8-12 tomorrow, which had me worried. Going south, looks like less, going north, it looks like a lot more. Glad I don't live in New England.

The only way we would not hold a tournament is if snow was so bad that the mall closes. They hate to do that unless it's a State of Emergency. It takes at least a couple of feet of snow for them to shut down. They loose money.)

If it gets only partially hideous, and lots of people can't come, we still hold a tournament. We might cut down a bit on the prizes, and hold some over later, and hold another big tournament in a month or two. (Got to get past Adepticon at least.) Or expand our big event in July to more people and tickets to Vegas. Just guessing now.

But whatever happens, we'll work it out so the most people get to game, and get chances at vegas, and a big chunk of prizes. I'll post updates here and on our site at Showcasecomicsandgames.com

Revised scenarios. Hopefully the typos are out. #4 has had significant changes to make it not suck.) Feedback appreciated if you see errors.

Mission 1: Scorched Earth
"Make 'em do da Burney Dance!" - Some orks just like fire a little bit too much.
(This mission takes inspiration from the new Battle Missions book, page 14)

Setup: Before the game starts, players will need to place 5 markers on the table, as detailed in 'Seize Ground' mission on page 91. (Ignore the part about d3+2 markers, and use 5 markers.)

Game length: Normal, as per the rulebook. (Random 5-7 rounds)

Deployment: Spearhead, page 93.
(Please note, that the first player picks a long table edge, and deploys his forces into one of the quarters adjacent to that table edge. Reserves may move onto the board from anywhere along his long table edge, not just from the portion in his deployment zone.)

Special Rules: All pieces of area terrain, and ruined buildings, are either on fire, or a smoking ruin. After placing objective markers, roll a D6 for each piece of area terrain, or ruins (model could not be placed in the terrain, you do not have to roll for it.) and refer to the following table:


1-3 The terrain is on fire and burning. Count the terrain as dangerous.
4-6 The terrain is a smoking ruin. Models inside the terrain may add +1 to any cover saves.
(If a model is in terrain, and does not have a cover save, it does not gain a bonus at all.)


All other rules such as infiltrate, reserves, seize the initiative, are used.


Scoring:

Primary Objective: Control more markers than your opponent.
(10 points. In the case of a tie, neither player scores points.)

Secondary Objective: Score more kill points than your opponent.
(7 points.)

Tertiary Objective: Destroy all of your opponents HQ choices.
(4 points.)


Bonus Point: Have one of your HQ choices in the enemy deployment zone at the end of the game.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________











Mission 2: 40k Football

(A sacred relic of Saint Lombardi has been found. Legend claims that if the inflated pigskin is placed behind enemy lines, victory will be ours! So get out there, and win one for the Emperor!)

Setup: One marker in the exact center of the table. This will represent the sacred relic or "football".


Deployment: Pitched Battle, as per the rulebook, page 92.


Special Rules: Onside Kick - Seize the initiative will happen on a 5-6. (All other rules such as infiltrate, scouts, outflank, will be used, as normal.)


Game Length: Normal Game Length. (Random 5-7 turns.)

Scoring:


Primary Objective: Place an objective marker in the center of the table at the beginning of the game. This is represented by a small round base, or other suitable marker. This is the 'football.' Any infantry or jump infantry unit can pick up the football. (see rules below). Bikes, beasts, MC, swarms, or Independent Characters may not pick up the ball. To pick up the football, the unit must have one of its models in base to base contact with the football at the end of the movement phase. They will carry the football until the unit is destroyed, falls back, embark into a transport, go to ground or get pinned. If any of these things happens, the unit has 'fumbled' the football. The opposing player must immediately place the football within 2” of the unit that lost the ball, and not in impassable terrain. If the unit was destroyed, it is placed within 2” of the last model killed. If the unit was destroyed in hand to hand, one of the units that destroyed them may immediately claim control, if they could normally pick up the ball, otherwise, place it within 2" of the position of one of the models just destroyed. At the end of the game the side with the football wins the primary objective. If no side has the ball at the end of the game neither side gets the points for this objective.
(10 points)

Picking up the ball:
- The unit picking up the ball must be an infantry unit, or a jump infantry unit. .
- Jump infantry that pick up the ball must move as infantry for as long as they hold the ball.
- To pick up the ball, the unit must be in base to base contact with the ball at the end of the movement phase.
- The unit with the ball may not run.


Secondary Objective: Kill anyone that touches the ball! Destroy all of your opponents infantry and jump infantry units. .
(7 points)


Tertiary Objective: Sack the Quarterback! Destroy all of the enemies HQ choices.
(4 points)


Bonus Point: Touchdown! At some point in the game, one of your units controlling the ball had at least one model in the enemies deployment zone.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________


Mission 3: Death to my Enemies!!

I don’t care how many of you milksops die out there. Casualties don’t matter. I won’t shed a tear if everyone on this Emperor forsaken planet dies. I only care about stopping the bugs for one more day. “
Colonel Jameson of the 11th planetary brigade, Lee’s World


Setup: Use the Pitched Battle setup on page 92


Deployment: As Pitched Battle


Special Rules: All normal rules are used (infiltrate, seize the initiative, reserves, etc)


Game Length: 6 Turns - Not random. All games will be the same length.




Scoring:

Primary Objective: There is only one objective, and that is to Kill the enemy, and to Kill as many as possible. Your own losses don't matter. It is possible for both players to score next to nothing, or for both to achieve a near perfect score.


Scoring: Battle points are determined by the number of victory points scored in the game. Victory Points (VP), are equal to the points cost of the unit destroyed, as follows:
-Wounded Independent characters give half their victory points.
-Damaged Vehicles give half of their victory points. (immobilized or weapon destroyed)
-Immobilized vehicles with no weapons left count as destroyed for purposes of VP.
-In a squadron, count each vehicle separately for VP purposes.
-Units taken to half, or below half, of their starting wounds, give half VP.
-Models created in the game, or units that return to the game when destroyed, give up points equal to their normal points cost. There may be complex issues with some units. Please ask a judge if you have a question.


Victory Points Tournament Score

350 to 500 2 points
501 to 650 4 points
651 to 800 6 points
801 to 950 8 points
951 to 1100 10 points
1101 to 1250 12 points
1251 to 1400 14 points
1401 to 1550 16 points
1551 to 1700 18 points
1701 to 1850 20 points


Bonus Point: Have an HQ choice left at the end of the game. Someone has to accept a medal, after all.
Bonus Point: Your surviving HQ choice is in the enemy deployment zone, planting the flag while accepting that medal.


Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________






Mission 4: Dawn Raid

(Catching the enemy by surprise before he had his morning coffee was a great idea, unfortunately, he must have been thinking the same thing.) This mission takes some inspiration from the 'Dawn Raid' mission on page 26 of the new Battle Missions book.

Setup: Divide the table into quarters. Place an objective marker in the center of each table quarter. Players each roll a d6, with the highest rolling player choosing a table quarter. The second player will deploy in the table quarter diagonally across from the first player. The table edge for each player will be the portions of the long and short table edges that form part of his deployment zone. The portion of table edge between the two players deployment zones should be marked as 'right' and 'left' for purposes of outflanking units.


Deployment: All deployments are made in your own table quarter. The first player may deploy any of his Fast Attack choices, along with Troops choices mounted in dedicated transports, at least 6" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any Fast Attack choices and Troops choices mounted in dedicated transports, also at least 6" from the center of the table. The first player may then deploy any other parts of his army, at least 18" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any of his other forces at least 18" from the center of the table. Any forces not deployed are held in reserve."


Special Rules: Night fighting rules are used on turn 1. At the end of turn 1, roll a d6 and on a 4+ night fighting will be used for turn 2 as well. Night fighting is not used in turn 3 on.
All other rules such as reserves, outflanking, infiltrate, seize the initiative, etc are used.

Game Length: at the end of turn 6, roll a dice. On a 4+ play a 7th turn, otherwise, the game ends on 6 turns.




Scoring:


Primary Objective: Control the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone.
(10 points)


Secondary Objective: Control both objective markers in the neutral table quarters ( The ones that neither you or your opponent are deploying in.)
(7 points)


Tertiary Objective: Destroy all of your opponents fast attack choices. If you're opponent did not field any fast attack choices, you may meet this objective by destroying all of their troop choices that have dedicated vehicles. If they have no troops with dedicated vehicles, you gain it for destroying all their HQ choices.
(4 points)


Bonus Point: Have a fast attack choice within 6” of the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone at the end of the game. If a player does not have a fast attack choice in his list, he may meet this condition by having one of his HQ choices in the enemy deployment zone at the end of the game. (This is only an option if you did not take ANY Fast Attack choices.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________


Mission 5: Annihilation


(Destroy the enemy, steal his stuff, and someone keep the beer back at camp safe.)


Setup: This mission uses the 'Capture and Control' and 'Pitched Battle' rules on page 91 and 92. (Each person has one objective, setup along the long table edges.)


Deployment: Pitched Battle, page 92


Special Rules: All rules such as infiltrate, seize the initiative, reserves, outflanking, etc are used.


Game Length: Standard Game Length as on page 90. (Random game length of 5-7 turns.)




Scoring:


Primary Objective: Control the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone.
Contesting the objective is worth 5 points.
(10 points)


Secondary Objective: Kill points. The player with the most Kill points, as described in the book,
on page 91
(7 points)


Tertiary Objective: Retain control of your own objective point.
(4 points)


Bonus Point: Have an HQ choice within 6” of the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________

still don't understand the 4th mission....

so if both players deploy their fast attack and troops in transports within 6" of the center of the board that, would potentially put them within 12" of each other?

I think whoever gets first turn is gonna dominate. It's gonna be a first turn close combat/meltagun fest....

Shouldn't it be more like deploying Fast Attack and Troops in transports within 6" of the objective marker in the center of their deployment zone and not the actual game table center?

Other than that, everything else is killer!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh...and also, shouldn't it be no more than 6" away and not 6" within.


If everyone is "within" 6" of the center of the table then you could have two Rhinos, for example, facing each other 1" away from the center of the board in their respective table quarters. On top of that, I'm not so sure a player can fit a whole lot within 6" of the center in his/her deployment zone.....

You have the option to be that close, but I doubt we will see both armies do it. Unless the guy going second feels like getting nailed turn 1.)

It allows one person to be very agressive with his set up. It also lets him over extend quite easily. Second player knows he's there, and can react as he likes. And 1/6th of the time, first player doesn't go first. For some armies, they may even leave significant forces in reserve, to come on after their opponent surges forward, and possibly drop in behind as well.

Off to bed, shoveling in the morning and heading in for last minute scenery touch ups, and printing out rules packets. See some of you Friday night for a beer at Ruby's.

cool.....I understand what you're saying......I was just a little perplexed....I'm tired myself.....see you guys at the event....I'm heading out tomorrow evening, checking in my room, and maybe I'll have to grab a few beers myself...haha!

Heading down this afternoon from ct. Looking forward to the event!

mikhaila wrote:
Mission 4: Dawn Raid [/i]

(Catching the enemy by surprise before he had his morning coffee was a great idea, unfortunately, he must have been thinking the same thing.) This mission takes some inspiration from the 'Dawn Raid' mission on page 26 of the new Battle Missions book.

Setup: Divide the table into quarters. Place an objective marker in the center of each table quarter. Players each roll a d6, with the highest rolling player choosing a table quarter. The second player will deploy in the table quarter diagonally across from the first player. The table edge for each player will be the portions of the long and short table edges that form part of his deployment zone. The portion of table edge between the two players deployment zones should be marked as 'right' and 'left' for purposes of outflanking units.


Deployment: The first player may deploy any of his fast attack choices, along with troops choices mounted in dedicated transports.These may be deployed within 6" of the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any fast attack choices, and troops choices mounted in dedicated transports. They also may be deployed within 6" of the center of the table. The first player may then deploy any other parts of his army, up to 18" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any of his forces, up to within 18" of the center of the table. Any forces not deployed, are held in reserve.


Special Rules: Night fighting rules are used on turn 1. At the end of turn 1, roll a d6 and on a 4+ night fighting will be used for turn 2 as well. Night fighting is not used in turn 3 on.
All other rules such as reserves, outflanking, infiltrate, seize the initiative, etc are used.

Game Length: at the end of turn 6, roll a dice. On a 4+ play a 7th turn, otherwise, the game ends on 6 turns.




Scoring:


Primary Objective: Control the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone.
(10 points)


Secondary Objective: Control both objective markers in the neutral table quarters ( The ones that neither you or your opponent are deploying in.)
(7 points)


Tertiary Objective: Destroy all of your opponents fast attack choices. If you're opponent did not field any fast attack choices, you may meet this objective by destroying all of their troop choices that have dedicated vehicles. If they have no troops with dedicated vehicles, you gain it for destroying all their HQ choices.
(4 points)


Bonus Point: Have a fast attack choice within 6” of the objective marker in your opponents deployment zone at the end of the game.






Player 1:_________________________ Score:________

Player 2:__________________________Score:________


Table# ________

Mike,

I can see that you change this scenario some, but it still needs work. I do not think being 12" from your opponent is a good idea. I know you do not have to deploy that close but it is just not good game mechanics. No other normal scenario allows for this.

Secondly, you NEED to change the bonus option. It needs to match the tertiary portion at least. You CANNOT exclude an army from scoring points in the tournament if they did not take a certain force org option. Please do not say that it is only a point, considering the Conflict GT winner was decided by 1/2 of a point and your last 40K tournament had a tie at the end. Every point counts, especially since you are rolling your comp scores into the overall score of players. I can see you keeping that scoring option if you had provided the scenarios to players BEFORE they had submitted their army lists, so they could tailor the lists to meet the scoring criteria.

I personally would recommend that you keep to the standard GW scenarios. I really dislike missions 2 (football) and 4. I know they are boring, but they are balanced. Additionally, I think you should keep to kill points only since that is what is in 5th edition. 4th edition was the victory point edition.

I am glad that you posted the missions before the tournament and have allowed us to post our concerns regarding them.

i just thought someone should say that they like all the scenarios -- they seem different and fun and reward the balanced list versus a tooled list. so that someone is me.

Additionally, I think you should keep to kill points only since that is what is in 5th edition. 4th edition was the victory point edition.

Unfortunately, there's not way to make that scenario work with kill points.

At this point, this is what we will be going with. I've just shoveled out the driveway, and am heading into work in a vain attempt to get everything set up so I can have a beer tonite.

However, I do have two more 40k GT's to run before Las Vegas, so any input is helpful. I will be making more use of Dakka for input on missions in the future. The fine tuning, finding errors, and identifying sucky scenarios is very, very useful.


Next up: Gladiator style missions for March. 20th. But I get to play in that one.) Al has to run it.

I think the missions look pretty darn good, though I agree that it's not okay for the final bonus point to only be available to someone with an FA unit.

I also think the phrasing of the deployment rules for for Mission 4 is unclear and confusing.

Deployment: The first player may deploy any of his fast attack choices, along with troops choices mounted in dedicated transports.These may be deployed within 6" of the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any fast attack choices, and troops choices mounted in dedicated transports. They also may be deployed within 6" of the center of the table. The first player may then deploy any other parts of his army, up to 18" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any of his forces, up to within 18" of the center of the table. Any forces not deployed, are held in reserve.

Maybe something like "Deployment: All deployments are made in your own table quarter. The first player may deploy any of his Fast Attack choices, along with Troops choices mounted in dedicated transports, at least 6" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any Fast Attack choices and Troops choices mounted in dedicated transports, also at least 6" from the center of the table. The first player may then deploy any other parts of his army, at least 18" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any of his other forces at least 18" from the center of the table. Any forces not deployed are held in reserve."

I think that's a bit clearer.

Wish I could be there!

Good luck Everliving! Go Mercs!

mikhaila wrote:I will be making more use of Dakka for input on missions in the future. The fine tuning, finding errors, and identifying sucky scenarios is very, very useful.
Next up: Gladiator style missions for March. 20th.

I wonder if the Article System could be used as a kind of "40K Missions Wiki"

A "Repository of Fair and Balanced Player-Reviewed Tournament Scenarios" if you will.

mikhaila wrote:
Please do not say that it is only a point, considering the Conflict GT winner was decided by 1/2 of a point

That's waaaay untrue : )

Mannahnin wrote:I think the missions look pretty darn good, though I agree that it's not okay for the final bonus point to only be available to someone with an FA unit.

I also think the phrasing of the deployment rules for for Mission 4 is unclear and confusing.

Deployment: The first player may deploy any of his fast attack choices, along with troops choices mounted in dedicated transports.These may be deployed within 6" of the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any fast attack choices, and troops choices mounted in dedicated transports. They also may be deployed within 6" of the center of the table. The first player may then deploy any other parts of his army, up to 18" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any of his forces, up to within 18" of the center of the table. Any forces not deployed, are held in reserve.

Maybe something like "Deployment: All deployments are made in your own table quarter. The first player may deploy any of his Fast Attack choices, along with Troops choices mounted in dedicated transports, at least 6" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any Fast Attack choices and Troops choices mounted in dedicated transports, also at least 6" from the center of the table. The first player may then deploy any other parts of his army, at least 18" from the center of the table. The second player may then deploy any of his other forces at least 18" from the center of the table. Any forces not deployed are held in reserve."

I think that's a bit clearer.

Wish I could be there!

Good luck Everliving! Go Mercs!

Good catch, you're wording is much clearer than mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NotMatthew wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Please do not say that it is only a point, considering the Conflict GT winner was decided by 1/2 of a point

That's waaaay untrue : )

Fantasy, not 40k, should have specified that.) I think the spread was Larry behind Kistler by .2, and Ludwig behind Larry by .3

can't wait to play! Good Luck! and be careful out there, drive safe.

Oh, question about display boards magnetized or not....

Is it better to bring your army in cases and set it upon a display board there at the venue? or should I just show up at the Mall with my army already attached to my display board so I don't have to lug around a bunch of stuff?

Fixed mission #4 with the suggested wording in deployment. Added the option to score the bonus point with an HQ choice, if you do not have a FA choice.

Panurgle wrote:

I personally would recommend that you keep to the standard GW scenarios. I really dislike missions 2 (football) and 4. I know they are boring, but they are balanced. Additionally, I think you should keep to kill points only since that is what is in 5th edition. 4th edition was the victory point edition.

I have heard this comment about Victory Points many times in the past few months and still am quite surprised by it. First off, get a copy of the Hardback Rule book, look in the back where tournaments are listed and the details for Victory Points are there in the 5th edition book. Second, the majority of the codex books are 3rd and 4th edition, not "designed for 5th edition and Kill Points".

In my opinion Kill Points only encourage unfair meta game with lists that can exploit the system.

Victory points reward armies composed of MSU such as mech IG. The 5th edition rulebook only suggests using victory points as deciding a tie breaker. Here is a list of 5th edition codices:

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons
Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Space Wolves
Tyranids
Orks
Upcoming Blood Angels

Here is a list of codices that have not been updated yet:

Necrons
Tau
Daemon Hunters/Battle Sisters
Dark Eldar
Black Templars

Dark Angels & Eldar codices were created on the cusp between 4th & 5th editions.

G

as it gets nearer to Saturday morning, I just want to wish all attending good luck and a smooth, drama-less tourney.

Good luck to everyone! I'm the guy with the Blood Ravens, or one of the blood raven guys if there is more than one. Say hi if you see me! Always like to put a face to a dakka name.

Ah....18 hours of gaming, 14 hours of driving.

Lots of fun was had; I'll write some battle reports this week. Mike ran a great event; missions were balanced (although not a single one had any nightfight..*sniff*). I didn't stay for awards in hopes of getting home by midnight (massacred out of the top tables in game 5), but for this being my first GT, I'm pleased with the event, the folks who attended, the friends I made, and the smooth gaming. There was a *lot* of grumbling about comp scores from seemingly everyone, but I care less than others; my goal was to meet people better than I can find locally and it was a tremendous success!

Sunday morning was hard on everyone after a hard night of drinking Saturday night - I was actually quite sober because I started drinking Saturday around noon and had about a fifth in me by nightfall, at which point I stopped and sobered up over dinner. *laughing*

I was a little paranoid of how I'd get along because of localized drama closer to home, but I liked everyone I met and only had a single rules issue - one of my opponents (Necron) flux-arced a battlewagon, wrecked it, and thought the same shot should also hit the boys piling out. That got resolved quickly though!

And every time I think I know all the rules, I learn something new; and I picked up a few new rule notes while I was there (models vs. units in multi-assault, reserves counting for killpoints at the end of the game). I also learned to fear Vulkan and the dual land raider list; I pulled three full point massacres, and if not for a 2nd round loss to dual landraider vulkan melta/redeemer flamer and other nastiness that I'd never faced before and didn't know how to deal with (as my ork boys run up to his land raider to power klaw the sides of it, my opponent rubs his hands together in glee....and the following turn tells me that those are flamers on the sides of his land raiders, not twin-linked lascannons....) I might have been a contender for the top.

You did great for your first GT Dash. Glad you came up and we got to meet in person.

I..am..so..tired!!

Trying to catch up on all the store's paperwork now, as I put it off for a week to work on the tournament. Paying for it now. Also paying for Saturday night now. Talking warhammer and drinking beer into the late hours if fun, but oh so hard to get up the next day, and do all the painting scores. I will always make sure I get painting done on Saturdays from now on.)

I had a great time!!! I gave you guys some props in my thread: "Great time at the St. Valentines Day Massacre GT this passed weekend..." under General Discussion.

Dashofpepper wrote:
And every time I think I know all the rules, I learn something new; and I picked up a few new rule notes while I was there (models vs. units in multi-assault, reserves counting for killpoints at the end of the game).

Somehow I feel singled out here

Seems we both learned something new.

Just wanted to give you a shout out for the awesome artist's rendition of the massacre.

Gorfang wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
And every time I think I know all the rules, I learn something new; and I picked up a few new rule notes while I was there (models vs. units in multi-assault, reserves counting for killpoints at the end of the game).

Somehow I feel singled out here

Seems we both learned something new.

Just wanted to give you a shout out for the awesome artist's rendition of the massacre.

Neither of those points were from games of mine! The multi-assault was an argument I was listening in on during another game, and the reserves counting for killpoints was the big debate going on at Table1 during game5 - I was hanging out listening to the discussion.

Specific to my game when I still had reserves at the end of the game (turn3? Turn4?) they don't count for killpoints because the game could progress to turn 4+ for them to come out.

Haha, no I mean I was the player with the crazy multiple assault (or at least one of them) & the kill pointed grots.

Hey Gorfang, I played you round 5. Ya, that was a crazy game... your 3 big ork units and, what, 10-11 different units of mine, plus our respective characters? A blood bath. Thank goodness the ven dreads held so well versus ghaz and a pklaw nob.

Mike can you send me the name of the winner(i'll go top two actually) so the first and second so I can add them to the boston brawl roll for 40k for their free tickets.

yeah who did win? Wait let me guess local guys....

Oh for sure, likely the largest combat I think I've ever been involved in in a standard sized game.

Mike, you should totally have a GT named "Brawl in the Mall."

Unless you did that already and I'm not original. ><

I had some pretty big combats myself, round 3 I had 3 units of gants 2 units of stealers a trygon and a tyrant fighting 2 20 man sister squads a 40 man ig platoon and 2 cannonesses. Lets just say the nids were fed well by the end of it.

Kesher wrote:yeah who did win? Wait let me guess local guys....

For what it's worth the #2 player was not local. This was his first time at the store (I drove him). The final table game was between myself (again, not affiliated with the club at all and I only really show up to play a friend who lives in the area or to attend the occasional tournament. For what it's worth, I did not even know the scenarios were posted here as until the past 24 hours I think I'd spent maybe 30 seconds on this website) and another gentleman who I had not met before at previous tournaments so will only assume is also not local? Brad (I really hope I didn't screw that up after just 48 hours) can answer for himself though. Feel free to put the tinfoil hat away.

Kesher: I am from Maine. I have never attended a 40k GT in my life. Going into the tournament I knew the guy I drove with and one guy who happens to also play fantasy GTs. I got 3rd overall. I think I am about as unlocal as you can get!

I'll try to help keep things constructive here.

Personally, I thought Mike could have used some help. Good lord, you're gonna take years off your life trying to run everything like that, man! The Big Gunz guys seemed like a really good bunch of gamers, and I *totally* get wanting to play given the Vegas tix up for grabs. But if a few clubmates had sat out and agreed to be Mike's judges/helpers/guy Fridays for the event, I think it would have helped. At least we wouldn't have been worried about Mike's health/sanity that way.

Gorgon: That was not a Big Gunz event. That was Mikes event. They had no say in anything done at the event. If any Gunz helped they did it on their own and not as an official Gunz. The Gunz used their site to pay for the event but nothing else.

That being said, I wonder when Mike is going to post the results.

Panurgle wrote:Gorgon: That was not a Big Gunz event. That was Mikes event. They had no say in anything done at the event. If any Gunz helped they did it on their own and not as an official Gunz. The Gunz used their site to pay for the event but nothing else.

That being said, I wonder when Mike is going to post the results.

Mike is finishing monthly comic order forms, and mostly ignoring things except for about 3 minutes each hour when I take a break to quit cursing marvel. These normally take me a week. Because of the tournament I'm doing them in 2 days, and hopefully have them uploaded soon. If not in by 11pm, I incur hundreds of dollars in losses, and potentially don't get comics for a month. I'll be working on posting results soon as I get that done.

As to your post, please go talk to the ten or so Biggunz that are down here in PA doing the work to set up the event, before you post second hand rumors. There was input from them all along the way.

Technically, the 3 GT's are events run by Mike Clark as the TO. Technically most of the monthly events are done by the Biggunz. Technically Showcase Comics pays the bills, because the Mall, my insurance company, or anyone else that Showcase deals with wants to take payments from Mike Clark or the Biggunz for rent, fire insurance, liability etc.

In reality: The club and I work together to put on all the events. Most of the Biggunz down here have gamed at showcase for years. They became biggunz because a several of the older guys in the Biggunz and I are friends and I encouraged the younger players to join the club.
We all work on the events, and try to change around who plays and who runs them. I was TO for this one, Al is doing the next, in between is a fantasy event this weekend with no real TO, since it's a relaxed event we thought had a dozen people trying out ETC rules. (37 registered, guess people like the ETC rules.) Chris Nanry runs lots of events. Over time, we want all the guys to get experience running things. We also have other clubs coming in to run events. Jay has a two day Bloodbowl event planned. Battlefront is going to run 3 FOW tourneys, etc etc .
Biggunz and I will be somewhat involved in all the events one way or another.

I could have used some more help. I lost two people. One to the drama of working at GW. He ended up having an important meeting on Sunday with not so good news. Not good for anyone, really. The other had to leave on Sunday morning. I still had some help, but not the kind that notices the things that fell through the cracks.

When I realized the scores never got posted, and painting score sheets weren't copied so I could had them back, I was upset. I knew guys had a long drive, and was focused on passing out the prizes and announcing the winners. Results should have been printed and copies available to everyone. In a two day, big GT, they should be posted every round, and the pairings should be posted. We just set up that new bunker in Jan. Probably should have had a computer and printer there. We will by this weekend.

Times up, back to order forms.

How did the tourny go?? And a side note is Showcase an actually "bunker" store now??

As for me, I am not a local; so no, the event was not won by locals. I have been to one other event at Mike's store, a year or so ago, and live about a high speed highway hour away--closer than some, but there are about 5 other stores closer than mike's... though none bigger.

Gorfang, you drove damien? Where do you guys play?

Once more, I'd like to say that I had alot of fun at this event. I felt no favoritism being played as far as locals are concerned. I think the whole organization of the event was pretty solid. I was impressed with the whole turn out. Mike and crew did a tremendous job. I live in Central Jersey and I'm thinking of driving to the Showcase store on a monthly basis just to play some fun casual games with those dudes on a Saturday(It will be nice to play different opponents and different armies besides Nick Nanavati's Nid list all the time at my local game store, The Only Game In Town!). See everyone at the next GT in the North East!!

Later dudes!

I'm based out of the Baltimore area for school so either play at the GW Battle Bunker in Glen Burnie or Games & Comics & Stuff, but Dameon double dips between those two & down where he lives in the DC area at Dream Wizards.

If you ever find yourself south of Delaware feel free to give us a shoutout. Our gaming site's www.innercirclegamingclub.com

We'll be hosting a GT event in July (I think) but also host stuff on about a monthly basis if you want to make the drive.

acastonguay wrote:How did the tourny go?? And a side note is Showcase an actually "bunker" store now??

Showcase has a lot of table space in the actual store, but the bunker is a totally seperate space located in another wing of the mall. It's a small mall, so they're really not that far apart.

I enjoyed the event. Tourney was well run with almost no delays and missions changed due to popular demand. Good job Mike and crew. Every table had Two chairs which I really appreciated because not all of us can stand all day. I had 5 fun games with 4 new people I just met and a friend I haven't played before and learned quite a bit from my games win or lose. First time I was able to squeeze in some 40k in almost a month and I enjoyed it.

Does anyone know when the results will be made available?

NotThisTime wrote:Does anyone know when the results will be made available?

Did you actually just type that? Please read what he has said he will have it within a week as he also runs a business.

Putting these up, apologies for the format. Sorted currently by overall total. We'll be putting out a PDF on the BIggunz site that's easier to read, and has army names, etc.

PLAYER NAME PT C R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 BP OVL
Bradley Nichols 11 14 21 21 22 18 11 93 118
Dameon Green 16 15 21 21 14 12 18 86 117
Tim Huddak 14 5 15 22 7 22 22 88 107
Matthew Cassidy 7 8 15 21 22 8 22 88 103
Alex Fenell 16 2 11 22 20 18 10 81 99
Ted Nagel 15 13 17 11 11 8 21 68 96
Nick Nanavati 13 1 10 21 22 6 21 80 94
Tim Arling 11 8 18 22 12 22 0 74 93
Pat Vetter 16 16 21 11 21 6 1 60 92
Craig Barnes 12 10 21 21 10 10 7 69 91
Chris Nanry 15 17 17 4 16 16 5 58 90
Justin Cook 19 5 18 0 22 14 11 65 89
Mike Belczyk 6 14 22 21 20 4 0 67 87
John McCool 16 11 15 17 2 8 18 60 87
Lou Bronco 17 13 22 0 2 12 21 57 87
Paul Miglino 6 3 14 14 21 10 18 77 86
Mike Ludwig 9 12 18 5 20 0 22 65 86
Richard Therkorn 10 15 4 4 22 22 9 61 86
Al Edel 15 5 17 10 16 12 10 65 85
Justin Hilderbrandt 10 7 22 0 22 22 1 67 84
Steve McDaniel 16 7 8 21 14 6 10 59 82
Andrew Baum 15 12 17 11 6 4 16 54 81
Marc Parker 14 1 11 0 20 22 12 65 80
Bill Bauer 12 15 21 4 16 6 5 52 79
Shane McRoberts 13 5 7 22 12 6 13 60 78
David Johnson 12 0 22 0 12 14 17 65 77
Pat Haynes 10 6 17 11 21 12 0 61 77
Jeff Omundeson 7 9 21 4 12 14 10 61 77
Jesse Schaeffer 17 15 10 12 22 0 0 44 76
Brandon Glackin 14 3 21 4 22 0 11 58 75
Mike Papro 11 16 4 14 0 12 17 47 74
Alex Beisel 12 10 0 21 16 4 5 46 68
Charles Aviles 14 9 4 4 16 10 11 45 68
Jay Powell 11 8 1 0 21 10 12 44 63
Vincent Pau 16 5 0 10 19 2 9 40 61
Matt Wallach 9 8 14 0 21 8 0 43 60
Joe Giuliani 9 10 7 0 6 14 12 39 58
William Ransdale 6 11 0 22 0 6 11 39 56
Michael Johnson 6 14 0 22 10 0 4 36 56
Chris Showers 16 4 0 14 8 10 3 35 55
Matthew Shestack 16 5 12 0 22 0 0 34 55
Joesepth Miles 10 12 7 5 12 4 5 33 55
Tony Spino 14 14 0 14 0 6 7 27 55
William Stock 10 13 0 4 2 8 12 26 49
Sean Downey NA 6 1 4 22 14 NA 41 47
Richard Stien 8 7 0 14 16 0 0 30 45
Alex McLaren 8 5 5 0 6 12 5 28 41
Tom Neidbala 11 5 0 4 2 14 4 24 40
Rob Conner 4 14 4 4 6 0 5 19 37
Chris Frka 6 0 0 0 10 8 11 29 35
Brian Schmidt 7 13 0 0 0 0 0 0 20

Empchild:

I must have missed that one but I did indeed type it. I appreciate you noticing and the candor.

As you have seen, the results have been posted, thanks Mike.

Wow, I came in 6th?!

I never woulda' thought it.

Thanks for a great weekend, I hope to make the trip again real soon for another event.

Hello all,

For those of you who don’t know me, my name is Mike Ludwig I am the Vice President of BigGunz-NE.

I am making a few clarifications on the statements being made.
First off, the St. Valentine’s Day massacre held last weekend was both a BigGunzNe event and a Showcase Comics event.
We are in partnership in working on improving the space and ensuring quality events are held there.

Mike Clark was the T.O for the SVDM,
But the The BigGunz-NE club members helped with, all aspects of the event:
From judging comp, developing the scenarios, providing refreshment, making terrain, helping to judge paint, developing the web portal for registration, promotion of the event, cleaning, ensuring the saftey of the players and their belongings, and the 100 other smaller details it was a joint effort.
Our YoungGunz-NE and BigBunz-NE members have been constantly working to the best job we could, and give anyone who attended a great tournament experience.

That being said, improvement can ALWAYS be made, both Mike and the officers of the club will be taking in all of your feedback.
Our goal is and shall always be to promote the hobby and improve the gaming community.
This can only be accomplished by listen to everyone’s feedback, then evaluating it and making changes that will be positive to our goals.

I understand that some players were frustrated, but this is a learning process, and we will be making changes as we learn more to improve the experience.
We hope that you will continue to provide positive feedback to both Mike and the BigGunz-NE, so we can continue to make our events better for all.

Thank you,
Mike Ludwig
Vice President BigGunz-NE

swarmlord HQ
3 tyrant guard HQ NOT COUNTED
3 hive guard ELITE
2 zoanthropes in a pod ELITE
3 zoanthropes in a pod ELITE
28 Hormaguants with poison TROOP
27 Hormaguants with poison TROOP
14 Termigaunts TROOP
10 Genesteelers TROOP
Tervigon COUNTS AS TROOP

5 troops , 3 elites and 1 HQ with a guard is a 1 comp really, is that what a hardest of the hard army looks like, THAT'S the army that everyone fears.

so the all mech eldar with 3 heavys gets a 16
the 6 dread in pods marine gets 13 was it.
all mech vetern, 3 vendetta guard gets a 5

I am just going to have to call bs or shenanigans , which ever applies.

And I was told at the event by justin cook I had a 10, and prior to this I talked to mikal on the phone and he said that I should be fine when I told him my list. I don't feel fine with a frelling 1

If you are going to have comp. have a check list or just SAY ahead of time that I, we , the judges are going to hose anyone we feel like.

FLIGHT FROM FLORIDA TO PHILLY---$250
TOURNAMENT ----------$60
HOTEL-----------------------------------$200
MEALS AND DRINK---------------------$100

GETTING SCREWED BY LOCAL-------PRICELESS

I kinda like Comp....but this seems rough....

That army is not a low comp army at all - may not be a super high comp - but a 1???? It's at least middle of the road...

No Mawloc, Trygon, Carny.....more troops than anything else - and not min-sized units....

Ouch....

Ludwig wrote:
I understand that some players were frustrated

Yeah but seriously some players were frustrated BEFORE the event, so you guys knew to be on the up and up, and failed at it. I'm sorry but when you tell a player he had a 10 comp and then actually he had a 1, you become a liar. A flat out liar. You lied to IMHO one of the best tourney players in the USA, and hes calling you out on.

I'm sorry but this THIS is out of control. The results are blatant, and unacceptable.

I understand help bailed on you but you know what that's no excuse and here's why. I go to mechanicon, I meet a lot of cool dudes and you know what NONE OF THEM PLAYED IN THE EVENT. I didn't even know Tony or Doug were good at 40k till I talked to them. For these guys running the event was more important. You have a whole gaming group sir, these guys (mechanicon) are like 6 dudes and they put on one of the best events I've been to period. Don't hide behind making comic orders, running a shop etc. You should not have done this event if you couldn't complete the task.

We need to move on from here, and to do it you both (mike) are going to have to apologize. That's it say your sorry, don't deflect, don't redirect, say you were wrong because you were.

Wow, I heard you had gotten the highest comp score for nids. I had also heard from another nid player that you had a 10. I think they might of screwed up on the input and accidently left off the 0. Had you gotten a 10 you would have been 11th I think. Still wouldnt have put you in price support.

If it was a mistake, they happen. It happened to me at the Necro in '07. Messed my score up by a few points. But they fixed it post tournament. So dont be too quick to call bs or shenanigans. Give Mike a second chance to check the numbers.

Except that he played another 1 round 1 or 2 which means it's probably not a mistake. It means the guy that told him his score probably made a mistake. That is a really soft 'Nid list. So was Yermom's. Grading like that just encourages people to say to hell with it and bring the nastiest thing they can and score it back via BP's/Painting.

If you guys check out the final scores and remove the comp scores, it doesnt affect the top two spots I think. It would move a few people around, but not affect the prized tickets.

Empchild wrote:

NotThisTime wrote:Does anyone know when the results will be made available?

Did you actually just type that? Please read what he has said he will have it within a week as he also runs a business.

Seems a valid question to me.

actually the 1 explains a few things to me

I played nick in round one and he had a 1
I played alex in round two and he had a 2

me and alex actually asked mikal at the start of our game how we are playing each other and he said there were a bunch of different factor or something and moved on.


Pat Haynes 10 6 17 11 21 12 0 61 77

EXAMPLE 2

my bro shane mcroberts had a 7 comp with his foot sloggin sisters and played a vulkin 2 flame tank landraider vulkin list on turn one(the really hard match up). his opponent had a 5 comp. so how did he play him when there was a guy with a six comp.
if it is being done fair there is no way it is possible.

but me and shane had our club name next to our names when we checked in, I never said I was in a club and i bought both our tickets.

I think the club name was put there by someone that recognized you guys from previous events. there were a lot of people there that play in big events.

Littlbitz wrote:Wow, I came in 6th?!

I never woulda' thought it.

Thanks for a great weekend, I hope to make the trip again real soon for another event.

A-ha!

So you're Ted Nagel then?!?

Panurgle wrote:If you guys check out the final scores and remove the comp scores, it doesnt affect the top two spots. It would move a few people around, but not affect the prized tickets.

You are right I should have won my games but unless I maxed them all out I was screwed out the gate

That is called a stacked deck

maybe an unfair advantage even

This is the problem with local run events

Panurgle wrote:If you guys check out the final scores and remove the comp scores, it doesnt affect the top two spots I think. It would move a few people around, but not affect the prized tickets.

Not true, it affected the pairings which resulted in the final scores themselves.

Gah!

I've been found out...

Shane had a 5 according to the results posted. That's probably why he played a 5. Though that list didn't deserve close to that score either. A more transparent rating system next time Mikhaila will do you a world of good after the fact. I still appreciate that you put on the event for all the peeps out east but you'll catch less crap if it's all out in the open next time (or you just drop comp completely ).

swarmlord HQ
3 tyrant guard HQ NOT COUNTED
3 hive guard ELITE
2 zoanthropes in a pod ELITE
3 zoanthropes in a pod ELITE
28 Hormaguants with poison TROOP
27 Hormaguants with poison TROOP
14 Termigaunts TROOP
10 Genesteelers TROOP
Tervigon COUNTS AS TROOP



Ok so lets break this down since you feel you were screwed lets see

swarmlord HQ
3 tyrant guard HQ NOT COUNTED

Ok let’s start her By far the best close combat unit in the game, not to mention the 11 wounds at toughness 6 that get a cover save from gaunts.


3 hive guard ELITE

Str 8 guns that hit on a 3 no line of sight needed no cover gave granted unless you in cover or directly next to a wall

2 zoanthropes in a pod ELITE
3 zoanthropes in a pod ELITE

5 str 10 ap1 lance weapons, that don’t start on the table, and pod in and don’t mishap


Tervigon COUNTS AS TROOP

A 6 wound toughness 6 troop, that produces more troops every round

28 Hormaguants with poison TROOP
27 Hormaguants with poison TROOP

56 guys with poison can wound anything in the game on a 4 +

14 Termigaunts TROOP

You have to take these to get the tervigon as troops

10 Genesteelers TROOP

And 10 outflankers with rending


Ok so now you explain to me how you comp. isn’t low, maybe it’s not a 1 maybe it’s a 5, but it most certainly low. What I find funny is that you sit here and complain, but you know you comp was going to be low. So please don’t pretend that we did you this great injustice. The book is brand new, we choose to be cautious, there was no reason not to be. If someone told you comp was a 10 I’m sorry mistakes happen, but you were scored appropriately.

Ludwig wrote:but you were scored appropriately.

Against what criteria? Where is the chart, where are the values you assigned to get to this conclusion?

You realize he called mike, gave him that list verbatim, and was told hes do pretty good comp wise. Guess that means a 1....

And thus the problem with Comp is displayed.....

One man's fluff bunny list is another man's devil himself designed list.

I say this as a fluff bunny myself....you just can't judge it without having bias.....

Sh*t can comp - replace it with Theme - and have it as it's own category.

Say what you will Ludwig it's still a very soft Nid army compared to what can be made out of that book. I think he has more of a problem with the fact that he scored below the 10 TH/SS, 2 Redeemer and Vulkan list. And the fact that the reasons for the comp are unknown due to the rubric of scoring not being put out.

This is the single largest problem with including even judged comp in the actual scores. I have no problem with it for first 2 round match-ups while the judges take care of anything crazy that comes up on the first day of the tourney but I don't think it should effect the overall scores.

And here I thought we could get through this with no drama...

That said, what the hell?

That list is not a 1/20 for comp. By saying that, you're saying that that list will beat 95% of the lists in your tournament all things equal. Yeah, right.

It may beat the everloving crap out of the army you haven't updated in 5 years but still bring down to play every Friday, but it won't beat 95% of tourney lists.

"Mistakes happen." You know what you do then? You fix them.

If Mark fething Parker decides to show up to your GT, do you think he's going to bring a middle-of-the-road Nids list or a high-power Guard list that, given the scores, would have done better for comp if he knows that ahead of time?

frgsinwntr wrote:I think the club name was put there by someone that recognized you guys from previous events. there were a lot of people there that play in big events.

Shane, while still a very close friend and compatriot, has parted ways with the WC last year. So to attach the WC title to his name is assuming a lot, and makes for some interesting problems in its own right.

As to the other topic on hand, not having a comp scoring sheet avaliable makes for a bad event. Marc may not have deserved a lot on comp, but a 1?

Swarmlord and Tyrant guard, though unkillable it seems, are too slow to make it to HTH, and the Swarm Lord is not the best unit in HTH. He is the best v. Lords and Tough Units, but fals short v. Hordes and the like.

Hive guard, a bunch of S8 AP4 shots with limited range and a 4+ save. Seems like Auto Cannons should score low too then.

Hormogants, expensive horde troops that crumble to any kind of shooting.

Tervigon, nice unit, but only 1 in the list.

Overall it should have gotten the 10 tha Marc was told it did.

I wonder how Nob Bikers would have scored, or Fate Crusher. If a middle of the road list got a 1 a power house list would get a -10? Oh wait, 10 TH/SS with Vulkan got 5, so maybe Nob Bikers and Fate Crusher would have gotten 10-15.

I'm sorry, but having run a lot of major events, I can tell you not having a rubric is fatal. Without a public apology as Rob Baer has suggested, your next year's attendance will suffer.

Darkness wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:I think the club name was put there by someone that recognized you guys from previous events. there were a lot of people there that play in big events.

Shane, while still a very close friend and compatriot, has parted ways with the WC last year. So to attach the WC title to his name is assuming a lot, and makes for some interesting problems in its own right.

As to the other topic on hand, not having a comp scoring sheet avaliable makes for a bad event. Marc may not have deserved a lot on comp, but a 1?

Swarmlord and Tyrant guard, though unkillable it seems, are too slow to make it to HTH, and the Swarm Lord is not the best unit in HTH. He is the best v. Lords and Tough Units, but fals short v. Hordes and the like.

Hive guard, a bunch of S8 AP4 shots with limited range and a 4+ save. Seems like Auto Cannons should score low too then.

Hormogants, expensive horde troops that crumble to any kind of shooting.

Tervigon, nice unit, but only 1 in the list.

Overall it should have gotten the 10 tha Marc was told it did.

I wonder how Nob Bikers would have scored, or Fate Crusher. If a middle of the road list got a 1 a power house list would get a -10? Oh wait, 10 TH/SS with Vulkan got 5, so maybe Nob Bikers and Fate Crusher would have gotten 10-15.

I'm sorry, but having run a lot of major events, I can tell you not having a rubric is fatal. Without a public apology as Rob Baer has suggested, your next year's attendance will suffer.

Well then we have a diffrence in opinion, which is why comp is subjective.

Hrmmm without being there all of this is somewhat hard to judge. I think if he said you were a 10 or whoever said it was in the wrong to place you at a one. That said I don't know what occured in the conversation only you and the employee you talked to did. What a lot of us TO's can do is read your complaints and improve upon them so as to not have the same problems occur twice. All of this said if some of you have valid opinons on comp and have statistics to show it can you email them to me at boston_brawl@yahoo.com @kesher at this point all you are doing is trying to cause problems hands down. No matter which way you cut it you nor I were at the event. Now if you were then say Hey this is me, and state your justifacations, but what your trying to do is take a good mans name and run it through the dirt instead of confronting him directly. All that said grats to the winners, hope the losers had fun either way hopefully next time it is more akin to your likings.

Empchild, that is exactly the response that is needed. As a TO for many events myself, all I can say is to take the complaints, and if there are more than one on the same subject, figure out why.

Taking an approach like Ludwig, and just insisting that a differance of opinion is all that it is is not helpful to the GT circuit. As TO's of events on the circuit(I just ran Ghengis Con in Denver) we need to constantly improve our events. I had a similar issue that this event experianced. Thankfuly it didnt seem to be as big, but I do think my experiance would be helpful.

We did not have comp, as I feel comp is too subjective, as Ludwig and my last post proved, however we did have theme. It was very low in the overall points, max of 15 out of 280. However, we did not provide a rubric, simply bring a cool army and if you want explain it to the judge during judging.

We had 1 15, 2 14s and about 50 7-10's. No one got below a 7. This caused great issues as everyone wanted to know why they didnt get a high score. Well, the issue wasnt huge in the end as it didnt adjust the scores, but the fact that there was no rubric was the issue.

Subjective scores are just that, favortism. We were accused of favoring our favorite armies for the theme since there was no guidlines. Here it seems that the locals did a great deal better in the comp department than those that flew 100s of miles. No saying it was biased, but it can easily look that way. And as such, the event will suffer unless the guys running it go out of their way to listen, correct and apologize for the errors they had.

Empchild wrote:@kesher at this point all you are doing is trying to cause problems hands down. No matter which way you cut it you nor I were at the event. Now if you were then say Hey this is me, and state your justifacations, but what your trying to do is take a good mans name and run it through the dirt instead of confronting him directly. All that said grats to the winners, hope the losers had fun either way hopefully next time it is more akin to your likings.

I think I'm just saying the same stuff everyone else is. Definitely not trying to start trouble, and I did state the issues to mike directly.

Hey this is me Rob Baer (as previously stated)
My justifiacitons are 10 years worth of tourney play- being in the top ten of both the first ard boyz finals, and overall circuit points. I've finished 1-10th place + at GT's. (my first gt I finished third) Not sure how many Rtt's ive won but its over 10 (with 6 being the same year at the GW Glen Burnie Battle-bunker). My work has appeared in white dwarf, and I am a columnist for bell of lost souls.

I've owned both a successful online store (Battlewagon Bits) as well as a brick and mortar one.

I think It would be safe to assume I know a few things about the hobby.

But what I've never had is a problem running a tourney.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ludwig wrote: Well then we have a difference in opinion, which is why comp is subjective.

From the IFL forum "I actually didnt get screwed on comp for once. But it still Ped me off that 3 of the comp judges played in the tournament. None of them won, but they still played."

Wow interesting. Ludwig did you play the 6 Dread army that got the 12 comp, and in it was your army....?

I think the verbal ABUSE that ludwig and mike are taking is in anyway shape or form unfair...

This is Nick Nanavati speaking, Marc's round 1 opponent and 3rd best general of the whole thing.

That said, The tournament organizers as far as I know mike and ludwig, decided to give ALL nid players terrible comp since their codex was new, and they did not want to give say my list a 15 and then have it run through everythign without a second thought. Better to be safe than sorry, I can sypathise with that.

BUT, they NEEDED to inform us that they were going to do that BEFORE the tournament. As it was all "hard" armies were in the 5 area. Mech IG, vulkan marines etc... With a few slips here and there (Ludwig's army, my round 4 opponents army, the mech eldar army etc...)
The lowest non nid score was in he realm of 4. Then all nid scores were given 1 or 2 as default.

Had I known that prior to the event I would have brought my daemons or vulkan marines desppite the fact that I'm more skilled with my tyranids.

If comp is "subjective" then you need to publish PRIOR to the event what your comp system is. Because, as you can see armies that you thought soft are obviously much harder and vice versa.

As someone who scored a *1* for come and isn't even bitching. I think Ludwig and Mike and whoever else was envolved should give formal apologies, and for future events post before hand how you will be doing comp.

that was a good game nick
I'll have a surprise for you next time

marc

Yeah Marc it was fun, and challenging.
I'll be waiting.

Nick

Kesher wrote:

Empchild wrote:@kesher at this point all you are doing is trying to cause problems hands down. No matter which way you cut it you nor I were at the event. Now if you were then say Hey this is me, and state your justifacations, but what your trying to do is take a good mans name and run it through the dirt instead of confronting him directly. All that said grats to the winners, hope the losers had fun either way hopefully next time it is more akin to your likings.

I think I'm just saying the same stuff everyone else is. Definitely not trying to start trouble, and I did state the issues to mike directly.

Hey this is me Rob Baer (as previously stated)
My justifiacitons are 10 years worth of tourney play- being in the top ten of both the first ard boyz finals, and overall circuit points. I've finished 1-10th place + at GT's. (my first gt I finished third) Not sure how many Rtt's ive won but its over 10 (with 6 being the same year at the GW Glen Burnie Battle-bunker). My work has appeared in white dwarf, and I am a columnist for bell of lost souls.

I've owned both a successful online store (Battlewagon Bits) as well as a brick and mortar one.

I think It would be safe to assume I know a few things about the hobby.

But what I've never had is a problem running a tourney.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ludwig wrote: Well then we have a difference in opinion, which is why comp is subjective.

From the IFL forum "I actually didnt get screwed on comp for once. But it still Ped me off that 3 of the comp judges played in the tournament. None of them won, but they still played."

Wow interesting. Ludwig did you play the 6 Dread army that got the 12 comp, and in it was your army....?

Yes rob I played, I don't hide that fact and if you thought my army was judged to high I’m sorry , but if we had someone else to judge comp we would have done that, but the bottom line is we didn't. And sir I know who you are that was never in question, but thanks for the info I’ll frame it and stick it on my wall for future reference.

Ludwig wrote:

Yes rob I played, I don't hide that fact and if you thought my army was judged to high I’m sorry , but if we had someone else to judge comp we would have done that, but the bottom line is we didn't. And sir I know who you are that was never in question, but thanks for the info I’ll frame it and stick it on my wall for future reference.

So what your saying is; you did play in a GT that you were a judge for, but it's okay cause there was no one else to do it?

So what are you saying Rob? Are you calling me dishonest? You think I would manipulate the scores to help members of my club win, is that it? Wow really? so Biggunz won this event and are going to Vegas hurray! Oh wait reality check NO THEY DIDN'T. I personally insulted by the implication, I thought better of that from you man, really I did.

Did you play in the tournament and be one of the comp judges? Really, you dont see any problem with that from any angle. So before hand you had no idea how you would vote for your own army list or how your friends would vote for it in your friday night comp. judging showdown.
So your saying that 75% of the armies at your tournament could easily beat your 6 dread list so they had to be given a lower comp score to even the field. So the 1 comp I got means my army is 12 times stronger than yours, that is crap.

Hey if you think how you did it is fair and totaly above the board that is awesome.

I said my peace on this because I dont like getting hosed but im done with it.
I'll never be at another event with screw the outsider(subjective comp)run by any of you people.

Damn, to bad I had that 3 hour window when they opened the philly airport.

Well Alex brought twin lash and got a 2? I think, for the honor of the lowest non-nid score. Dual Lash with more oblits and perhaps some slightly different troops may have gotten a 0, but I think most people know that dual lash would have gotten crap comp, so only Alex brought it.

I think if you take the new nids out of it, most of the mech IG wasnt as bad as it could be, thus scored 5ish. Also, what was in the 10 THSS termie vulkan list besides 2 raiders? Because, to be honest, we all know that just Vulkan and THSS termies will have many issues winning games unless the rest of the SM army is really well tuned, or the opponent has somehow no way to kill a raider or 5 THSS termies by now.

Looking at the event, Dameon and I both probably had a comp 1-2 points higher than we deserved, but almost everything (other than nids) had that same issue. For example, a lot of the ghazzy ork lists with battle wagons and lootas scored well... I think DashofPepper said he got a 7, and he had Ghazzy, KFF, 2 BW, 30 lootas, 15 burnas, ect. While Burnas arnt the bees knees, they are still good (great?) choices in his army, and probably why they game him a 7 instead of a 5 or so.

Did the new nids very obviously get hosed? Yeah. But OTHER than nids, every other army I think was OK, with the caveat that you should take 1-3 points from almost everyones score. If the scores were kept pretty much identical, with the low comp nids scoring about a 7-8 instead, I dont know if that would have changed very much. For example, I think, (and Dash may or may not agree) that Dash's ork army had the tools to deal with the nids on even footing.

On the other hand, some of the middling comp armies, like Lou's 13 comp Crons led by the deciever, would have been very hard pressed to deal with the good nid lists, so I dont think the nid lists in the low comp area deserved to be in the 10 comp range.

Nick, what do you think your comp should have been? Id say you are an 8ish based off what I remember from your list.

Kesher wrote: But what I've never had is a problem running a tourney.

alright I agree that you have shown you have experience in the hobby and thats cool lots of people do, so I say to you this then. Why not start your own tourney and run it, but not a 20 person one a 50+ do it with just 2 or 3 people.. It's not easy. I understand some of your guys complaints and hey alright you ahve the right. So instead of complaining "START YOUR OWN" run it however you want and see how it plays out. Maybe good maybe horrible, but really see what it takes to do all of this. If you actually make it to the day of the event with everything perfect and no one gripes afterwards I will personally buy you an all expenses paid vacation to warhammer world in the UK. I can putthis up because I am that conifdent.

In all honesty I'd say my list was a 6. It was IMHO just a tad nicer than justin cook's guard army, and he had a 5.

What was justin running for his guard? I think i remember seeing Hydras in his list, and genestealer cult guardsman, but the rest is fuzzy.

Ludwig wrote:So what are you saying Rob? Are you calling me dishonest? You think I would manipulate the scores to help members of my club win, is that it? Wow really? so Biggunz won this event and are going to Vegas hurray! Oh wait reality check NO THEY DIDN'T. I personally insulted by the implication, I thought better of that from you man, really I did.

Do you think its okay to play in a event you judged? I do not.

Brad he ran 4 vet squads with meltas in chimeras a CCS with flamers in chimera 2 vandettas 3 hydras 2 medusas and stracken. I might be missing some things, I dind't play against it, but I got a good look at it.

He helped judged comp, before the tourney. That is not quite the same thing as judging the whole tourney.

As for potential comp judging shenanigans that Ludwig may or may not have pulled, to what end did he profit? He won players choice, a category unrelated to the playing of the game... I dont think anyone from Big Gunz won anything else?

Plus, even if his 12 comp for 6 ironclads was a few points too high, how much lower would it really have been? Certainly not as low as a 5, which is where the mech guard players were at.

Kesher wrote:

Ludwig wrote:So what are you saying Rob? Are you calling me dishonest? You think I would manipulate the scores to help members of my club win, is that it? Wow really? so Biggunz won this event and are going to Vegas hurray! Oh wait reality check NO THEY DIDN'T. I personally insulted by the implication, I thought better of that from you man, really I did.

Do you think its okay to play in a event you judged? I do not.

and it's fine to think that ,but to attack my character is way out of line man, you don't know me, but you feel like you can make accusations like that ? really?

Your not happy with the fact that i played I get it

Ludwig's awesome. Spawn everywhere ftw!!! What a game, what a game!

Went 0W and 5L for the event ( overall 42nd out of 51 ), but had a great time - awesome opponents ! Despite suggestions against bringing a theme army I wanted to play a list I enjoyed taking the time to build and paint... somehow it scored a 12 though on comp ???

1850 Points - Chaos Space Marines

MoT Winged Daemon Prince ( Warptime and Wind of Chaos )
205 pts - HQ Selection

MoT Chaos Sorcerer ( Terminator Armor and Force Weapon - Warptime and Wind of Chaos )
200 pts - HQ Selection

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltagun ) 2x
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) 6x
Chaos Rhino ( Combi Flamer )
285 pts - Troop Selection

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltagun ) 2x
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) 6x
Chaos Rhino ( Combi Flamer )
285 pts - Troop Selection

Chaos Lesser Daemons 10x
130 pts - Troop Selection

Chaos Lesser Daemons 10x
130 pts - Troop Selection

Terminator Champion ( Chainfist - TL Bolter )
Terminator Champion ( Icon of Tzeentch ) ( Paired Claws )
Terminator Champion ( Paired Claws ) 2x
240 pts - Elite Selection

Chaos Land Raider ( Twin Link Heavy Bolter - Paired Twin Link Lascannons )
220 pts - Heavy Support Selection

Chaos Vindicator ( Demolisher Cannon and TL Bolter plus Daemonic Possession - Dirge Caster )
155 pts - Heavy Support Selection

toxic_wisdom wrote:1850 Points - Chaos Space Marines

MoT Winged Daemon Prince ( Warptime and Wind of Chaos )
205 pts - HQ Selection

MoT Chaos Sorcerer ( Terminator Armor and Force Weapon - Warptime and Wind of Chaos )
200 pts - HQ Selection

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltagun ) 2x
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) 6x
Chaos Rhino ( Combi Flamer )
285 pts - Troop Selection

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltagun ) 2x
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) 6x
Chaos Rhino ( Combi Flamer )
285 pts - Troop Selection

Chaos Lesser Daemons 10x
130 pts - Troop Selection

Chaos Lesser Daemons 10x
130 pts - Troop Selection

Terminator Champion ( Chainfist - TL Bolter )
Terminator Champion ( Icon of Tzeentch ) ( Paired Claws )
Terminator Champion ( Paired Claws ) 2x
240 pts - Elite Selection

Chaos Land Raider ( Twin Link Heavy Bolter - Paired Twin Link Lascannons )
220 pts - Heavy Support Selection

Chaos Vindicator ( Demolisher Cannon and TL Bolter plus Daemonic Possession - Dirge Caster )
155 pts - Heavy Support Selection

I don't mean to call anyone a liar, cheater, or fixer of scores here. I just have to ask: in what universe is this list as good as one with 6 Ironclads?

This list (no personal offense intended, toxic_wisdom, if you feel that this is offensive, I'll take it down and apologise) reads like a "Worst of CSM" list and is heavily themed. Assuming that a 10 for comp means that an army's better than 50% of the field, I'd give this a 17 or 18 (prob 18).

This is a very interesting debate -- the "Schedule A Game" forum is not the right place for it, though.

Locking thread.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:
I don't mean to call anyone a liar, cheater, or fixer of scores here. I just have to ask: in what universe is this list as good as one with 6 Ironclads?

This list (no personal offense intended, toxic_wisdom, if you feel that this is offensive, I'll take it down and apologise) reads like a "Worst of CSM" list and is heavily themed. Assuming that a 10 for comp means that an army's better than 50% of the field, I'd give this a 17 or 18 (prob 18).

At some point TOs will have to realize that by including comp (and sports to an extent) scoring they are begging for trouble. Obviously anyone involved in scoring comp. should not have played in the tournament. This is what people call "a conflict of interest." Why bother with comp. at all?

olympia wrote:At some point TOs will have to realize that by including comp (and sports to an extent) scoring they are begging for trouble. Obviously anyone involved in scoring comp. should not have played in the tournament. This is what people call "a conflict of interest." Why bother with comp. at all?

And avoiding the appearance of conflicts of interest is important...for important things, like a country's judicial system. But this is a game of toy soldiers. Sounds like none of the parties involved in judging comp won anything, so why is it such a big deal? Merely for idealistic reasons?

So comp was used to pair the first two match ups?

And someone who played in the tournament helped judge comp?

So that person who is playing got access to see every list before the first game AND could help seed the field?

Therefore, if he did not want to play against some builds he could match them up with certain comp scores so they'd have to play each other first round.

Also, what list does a 6 dreadnought list fear most? Maybe one with a bunch of MC's and Zoans that can punch through armor pretty easily?

If you have access to information that other players DO NOT have access to you should NOT play in the tournament as anything except the ringer.

You had access to every players list.
You had the ability to see what type of armies you'd be paired up against in the first two round.
You knew what the comp score for armies would be before the tournament.

These are all unfair advantages that other players did not have access to.

I don't know the system being used, but there IS a way to do this without hitting the conflict of interest. Any/everyone involved in comp scoring AND who is playing the event has to submit their lists before everyone else, and before seeing any of the submitted lists. Then one person, who is NOT playing in the event, strips all the identifiers off the lists/anonymizes them. For comp scoring, each list is given only a number, which is reassociated with the player's name after scoring is complete.

Then once all the lists are submitted and the serial numbers filed off, all the lists are collected together and scored by the comp council.

Mannahnin wrote:I don't know the system being used, but there IS a way to do this without hitting the conflict of interest. Any/everyone involved in comp scoring AND who is playing the event has to submit their lists before everyone else, and before seeing any of the submitted lists. Then one person, who is NOT playing in the event, strips all the identifiers off the lists/anonymizes them. For comp scoring, each list is given only a number, which is reassociated with the player's name after scoring is complete.

Then once all the lists are submitted and the serial numbers filed off, all the lists are collected together and scored by the comp council.

This would be better, but a judge could still group armies he would not like to face and give them comp scores so they'd have to play in the first two rounds.

Mannahnin wrote:I don't know the system being used, but there IS a way to do this without hitting the conflict of interest. Any/everyone involved in comp scoring AND who is playing the event has to submit their lists before everyone else, and before seeing any of the submitted lists. Then one person, who is NOT playing in the event, strips all the identifiers off the lists/anonymizes them. For comp scoring, each list is given only a number, which is reassociated with the player's name after scoring is complete.

Then once all the lists are submitted and the serial numbers filed off, all the lists are collected together and scored by the comp council.

Like the geocentric model of the solar system, with enough effort it is possible to develop a convoluted system that is clunky but more or less workable. Of course if you eliminate comp the problems go away as well.

olympia wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I don't know the system being used, but there IS a way to do this without hitting the conflict of interest. Any/everyone involved in comp scoring AND who is playing the event has to submit their lists before everyone else, and before seeing any of the submitted lists. Then one person, who is NOT playing in the event, strips all the identifiers off the lists/anonymizes them. For comp scoring, each list is given only a number, which is reassociated with the player's name after scoring is complete.

Then once all the lists are submitted and the serial numbers filed off, all the lists are collected together and scored by the comp council.

Like the geocentric model of the solar system, with enough effort it is possible to develop a convoluted system that is clunky but more or less workable. Of course if you eliminate comp the problems go away as well.

Depends on your definition of the "problem." Some of us consider it a problem that a no-comp event pretty much eliminates Tau, Necron, Grey Knight, and Dark Angel armies. Everyone knows they are weaker, and people just don't bring them.

Reduced to the minimum, you start seeing 3 army lists at tournaments, with very minor variations. Might as well play Rock-Paper-Scissors; it's faster.

Hello, my name is Jay Powell, I was the Howling Griffons Player at the SVDM and I scored an 8 comp. Here was my list.

Kar'Sarro Khan (on Foot)
Librarian w/ Terminator Armor and Storm Shield (Null Zone and Avenger)

(10) Tactical Squad with Pfist, Flamer, Missile Launcher in Rhino w/ Extra Armor
(10) Tactical Squad with Power Weapon, Flamer, Missile Launcher in Rhino w/ Extra Armor
(10) Tactical Squad with Pfist, Melta, Multimelta in Rhino w/ Extra Armor
(5) Tactical Squad with Pfist & Combi-Meltagun in Razorback (Tw-Heavy Bolter) w/ Extra Armor

(5) Terminators w/ Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields
Dedicated Landraider w/ Mulitmelta

(2) Landspeeder Typhoons w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher and Heavy Flamer (in 1 squadron of 2 speeders)

First round I faced Tim Arling's Orks with Gazgul, KFF Mech, 2 Battle Wagons, 2 units of Kans, buggies, big mobs of boyz, some lootaz, and some small units of Nobz. Oh and he had a squad of Tank Bustas and some grots too. I had fun vs Tim, great opponent but his army was clearly a lot nastier then mine but because he was scored at a 7 I got trounced with little shot of winning. Now this pairing could have happened in a normal tournament so I am not that peeved, but just looking at the table early on you could see the mismatch. Tim trounced me.

Second round I played the Necron Player with 3 Monoliths and the Deceiver, 3 squads of 13 Warriors, and a lord with orb. He also score a 7 in comp, and had been up against a close assault army in round 1 and been trounced too so we were paired up. I have only 2 weapons that could pen a Monolith, the 2 Lascannons on my Raider. Nothing else could really hurt them. Then we find out that the football scenario that was supposed to be round 3 according the missions published was actually round 2, so I had to face the monoliths and the deceiver going for an objective out in the middle of open ground. Once again, a pretty clear mismatch in my army to his, and I got trounced again.

Third thru fifth round I played against nids, and did quite a bit better, though not as good as the records show in the posted results. The 21 given to me round 3 should have been a 10. I got at least a solid draw in games 3-5, after comp scoring was abandoned.

Now what does that say about the system used? When I asked about my low comp score I was given the run around by both Mike and I am guessing Ludwig (not sure if it was him though). Eventually I was told I got the low score because my army was setup to have high Maneuverability (which I was later to find out meant that it included Khan) and its weapon options were setup to be able to take on a wide variety of threats.

So that said, because I took an under played character who while yes, gives most of the army outflank (though it would be stupid and tactically unsounds to Outflank everything as I have discover because your army tends to come in piece meal and is picked off easily, especially with a 30pts IG Astropath on the table) and because I took weapon load outs that would work vs a number of different armies I was dinged for planning ahead? Why? When chaos lists with special characters, winged Daemon princes, multiple squads of plague marines in rhinos and berserkers, some in raiders, all with oblites were getting 14s and 15s?

Please post your comp system or drop it. Or if you won't do either, have it only effect game 1, after that it should come down to win/loss and points earned. I'd also like to see some sort of Sports score, for when these mismatches happen. I was lucky, and had 4 good opponents (Played the same guy in both games 4 and 5, but this was do to a lack of staff to fix the problem and reassign us in round 5 and not related to the topic at hand) and enjoyed all my games even though I got trounced in games 1 & 2. I think with some small tweaks this could have been a great tournament and I look forward to seeing what Mike and the Biggunz learn from the problems with this event.

My $0.02.


-Jay

Janthkin, if you examine the (non-comped) results for the British GT circuit you'll see some diversity. , Obviously, therefore, the absence of comp. does not discourage people with Tau or whatever from participating? Perhaps the British are just better wargamers?

olympia wrote:Janthkin, if you examine the (non-comped) results for the British GT circuit you'll see some diversity. , Obviously, therefore, the absence of comp. does not discourage people with Tau or whatever from participating? Perhaps the British are just better wargamers?

If you talk to the guys who attend the UK GTs, you find out that the few people who bring the weaker armies are doing it to prove a point, or because they genuinely don't care about their chances of qualifying for the final.

The UK GT is famous for the kinds of lists you get. Like the old 3rd and 4th ed Ulthwe Craftworld unlimited size Seer Council armies, where in 1500pts they'd have ten Guardians and a giant seer council for their entire army.

Mannahnin wrote:

olympia wrote:Janthkin, if you examine the (non-comped) results for the British GT circuit you'll see some diversity. , Obviously, therefore, the absence of comp. does not discourage people with Tau or whatever from participating? Perhaps the British are just better wargamers?

If you talk to the guys who attend the UK GTs, you find out that the few people who bring the weaker armies are doing it to prove a point, or because they genuinely don't care about their chances of qualifying for the final.

If the point they are trying to prove is that comp. is unnecessary I concede it.

You don't "concede" that point. You incessantly belabor that point.

And no, that's not the point they're making. They do it to show how good a player they are with a weaker or outdated book, or to get bragging rights as the "highest placing Eldar player", or to remind GW how old and unloved their book is. Google "Waaagh Gotheringham-Willoughby" sometime to read about spikeydavid's adventures with the old Ork codex.

This demonstrates that having judging for comp is a bad idea....

Wait comp overall is just bad. Just play the game as intended 40k it is never going to be perfectly balanced. Nor is it going to be a perfectly competitive game just let people play with the minis they bought and see how the dice land.

Another thing comp seems like a relic of 3rd and 4th edition when the game was really not balanced and a few lists could totally dominate.

On my blog I got a good thread going about general good and bad behavior from the GT.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=2817

Mannahnin wrote:

olympia wrote:Janthkin, if you examine the (non-comped) results for the British GT circuit you'll see some diversity. , Obviously, therefore, the absence of comp. does not discourage people with Tau or whatever from participating? Perhaps the British are just better wargamers?

If you talk to the guys who attend the UK GTs, you find out that the few people who bring the weaker armies are doing it to prove a point, or because they genuinely don't care about their chances of qualifying for the final.

The UK GT is famous for the kinds of lists you get. Like the old 3rd and 4th ed Ulthwe Craftworld unlimited size Seer Council armies, where in 1500pts they'd have ten Guardians and a giant seer council for their entire army.

Is there a problem with an army like that in tournament play?

If we tossed out comp altogether do we think we'd only see 3 different lists? I can think of at least 2 marines lists, 2 SW lists, a guard list, a nid list, witch hunters, an eldar list, 1-2 ork lists and probably 1 DH list and 1 Tau list that could all be competitive in a tournament without comp.

Yeah necrons and dark eldar aren't included. Oh well. Update their codex please.

That isn't enough variety?

Hopefully there would be at least one genuinely competitive build in each codex if there was no comp.

Ideally there would be several, just to add variety to games.

Indeed. If the codices were well-designed enough to each support multiple competitive builds, comp would probably be unnecessary.

Kevin Nash wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

olympia wrote:Janthkin, if you examine the (non-comped) results for the British GT circuit you'll see some diversity. , Obviously, therefore, the absence of comp. does not discourage people with Tau or whatever from participating? Perhaps the British are just better wargamers?

If you talk to the guys who attend the UK GTs, you find out that the few people who bring the weaker armies are doing it to prove a point, or because they genuinely don't care about their chances of qualifying for the final.

The UK GT is famous for the kinds of lists you get. Like the old 3rd and 4th ed Ulthwe Craftworld unlimited size Seer Council armies, where in 1500pts they'd have ten Guardians and a giant seer council for their entire army.

Is there a problem with an army like that in tournament play?

If we tossed out comp altogether do we think we'd only see 3 different lists? I can think of at least 2 marines lists, 2 SW lists, a guard list, a nid list, witch hunters, an eldar list, 1-2 ork lists and probably 1 DH list and 1 Tau list that could all be competitive in a tournament without comp.

Yeah necrons and dark eldar aren't included. Oh well. Update their codex please.

That isn't enough variety?

Actually DE can too, leaving Necrons. Everyone else can do a competitive build.

In all fariness NECRONS can be very competative you just have to bring the hammer/anvil list and go for a 1 in comp. You really have to try to get a 0 but its possible. One individual I played said he would never want to face off against my list again. So far in 5th edition I am at 9-2-1

I'm deleting the last few posts. Plugging your blog is okay. GBF, you do it in your own sig. Plus, changing the quote to an offensive phrase is crude and unnecessary. Please don't do that.

Ludwig wrote:

and it's fine to think that ,but to attack my character is way out of line man, you don't know me, but you feel like you can make accusations like that ?

When did i attack your character? I asked if you judged comp and if you played "x" list.

The only person overly anti STVDM in this thread is Marc, who openly declared shenanigans. I stated the facts, gave my solutions to them, and asked questions.

Littlbitz wrote:Gah!

I've been found out...

How did you get a 15/20 for painting





Your army blows all others out of the water. I got a 16/20 (It was a 17/20.... no idea how that changed) for a "meh" Tyranid army. You regularly win best painted for a reason. I still have yet to see an army that is better painted them yours. But you got a 15. There are a few people above you. I'm very confused as to why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

toxic_wisdom wrote:Went 0W and 5L for the event ( overall 42nd out of 51 ), but had a great time - awesome opponents ! Despite suggestions against bringing a theme army I wanted to play a list I enjoyed taking the time to build and paint... somehow it scored a 12 though on comp ???

1850 Points - Chaos Space Marines

MoT Winged Daemon Prince ( Warptime and Wind of Chaos )
205 pts - HQ Selection

MoT Chaos Sorcerer ( Terminator Armor and Force Weapon - Warptime and Wind of Chaos )
200 pts - HQ Selection

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltagun ) 2x
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) 6x
Chaos Rhino ( Combi Flamer )
285 pts - Troop Selection

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltagun ) 2x
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) 6x
Chaos Rhino ( Combi Flamer )
285 pts - Troop Selection

Chaos Lesser Daemons 10x
130 pts - Troop Selection

Chaos Lesser Daemons 10x
130 pts - Troop Selection

Terminator Champion ( Chainfist - TL Bolter )
Terminator Champion ( Icon of Tzeentch ) ( Paired Claws )
Terminator Champion ( Paired Claws ) 2x
240 pts - Elite Selection

Chaos Land Raider ( Twin Link Heavy Bolter - Paired Twin Link Lascannons )
220 pts - Heavy Support Selection

Chaos Vindicator ( Demolisher Cannon and TL Bolter plus Daemonic Possession - Dirge Caster )
155 pts - Heavy Support Selection

Hey Joe. This is the battle report of the tournament. We need to get a game in. With me using a fun list.

BATTLE REPORT VS CSM st. VAL TOURNAMENT below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_fYpcPCK5A

(btw my comp was a 7/20, thus the highest? nid comp)

i wish i brought my camera to this because I loved so many armies there and would of liked to get better pictures then that of my iphone

hey cheesesteak, I have pictures and video of the majority of the armies. Any army in particular you want pics of?

How did I get a 15 for Painting?

I'm not really sure Auxellion, I was a bit suprised myself. My army wasn't scored till the very end while I was putting my army away. Seems I was a bit of an after thought, and things were already decided.

Mike, I think it was, told me I got a 15. He said most of my conversions were simple weapon swaps, and that while my army was painted consistently throughout, it just didn't "pop" and didn't have much detail.

I try not to get to upset over paint scores, even though its my goal at these Tournaments, over winning games as its the one thing I have full control over (the quality of the miniatures I bring).

It is very subjective however even with a checklist, scores can vary widely from one judge to another.

I will say however that was the lowest I've placed in paint with my Space Wolves in about 5 years. Oh, and no I don't take the same old army everytime. Sure some of the models are the same, but the army is continuously evolving from what started as a full Pod army to the Biker, hybrid mess it is today.

Hi Ted, I asked you for a quarter Sunday morning when we were waiting for the store to open upstairs. I'm Steve. Anyway

Ted, you brought quite a few new models and your "swaps" involved quite a bit of greenstuff and repositioning and customizations. Also your level of highlighting shames "Propainters." I don't know, I saw the 15 and it just "Felt Wrong." Mainly due to the fact that I scored higher then you. And my friend Chris's orks I painted for him managed the same score. Compare:





Zero highlighting, simple layers, minor/medium conversions on the vehicles. Everything else is basic model. Got the same score.

----

I actually greatly boosted my painting score from the last time I played at showcase. I went from a 9 to a 16, which is an improvement IMO for... repainting my entire army.



I managed a 16 on painting (Which I read off as a 17 on Sunday on Ashley's laptop, but that is irrelevant)

Littlbitz wrote:How did I get a 15 for Painting?

I'm not really sure Auxellion, I was a bit suprised myself. My army wasn't scored till the very end while I was putting my army away. Seems I was a bit of an after thought, and things were already decided.

Mike, I think it was, told me I got a 15. He said most of my conversions were simple weapon swaps, and that while my army was painted consistently throughout, it just didn't "pop" and didn't have much detail.

I try not to get to upset over paint scores, even though its my goal at these Tournaments, over winning games as its the one thing I have full control over (the quality of the miniatures I bring).

It is very subjective however even with a checklist, scores can vary widely from one judge to another.

I will say however that was the lowest I've placed in paint with my Space Wolves in about 5 years. Oh, and no I don't take the same old army everytime. Sure some of the models are the same, but the army is continuously evolving from what started as a full Pod army to the Biker, hybrid mess it is today.

Wow, I'm shocked at that score. I played your army back when it still had some pods in it a couple of years ago at the 'Ard Boyz semi-finals and it was the best looking army I've ever seen anyone put down on the table by a country mile.

Wow so those orks got the same score as Teds stuff?

Danny Internets wrote:

Littlbitz wrote:How did I get a 15 for Painting?

I'm not really sure Auxellion, I was a bit suprised myself. My army wasn't scored till the very end while I was putting my army away. Seems I was a bit of an after thought, and things were already decided.

Mike, I think it was, told me I got a 15. He said most of my conversions were simple weapon swaps, and that while my army was painted consistently throughout, it just didn't "pop" and didn't have much detail.

I try not to get to upset over paint scores, even though its my goal at these Tournaments, over winning games as its the one thing I have full control over (the quality of the miniatures I bring).

It is very subjective however even with a checklist, scores can vary widely from one judge to another.

I will say however that was the lowest I've placed in paint with my Space Wolves in about 5 years. Oh, and no I don't take the same old army everytime. Sure some of the models are the same, but the army is continuously evolving from what started as a full Pod army to the Biker, hybrid mess it is today.

Wow, I'm shocked at that score. I played your army back when it still had some pods in it a couple of years ago at the 'Ard Boyz semi-finals and it was the best looking army I've ever seen anyone put down on the table by a country mile.

Ted's army is downright beautiful

Really?

Hulksmash wrote:Shane had a 5 according to the results posted. That's probably why he played a 5. Though that list didn't deserve close to that score either. A more transparent rating system next time Mikhaila will do you a world of good after the fact. I still appreciate that you put on the event for all the peeps out east but you'll catch less crap if it's all out in the open next time (or you just drop comp completely ).

I was informed at the beginning of the tournament that I scored a 7 in comp.

It's only now that I see the scoring that I'm informed I had a 5.

If I had done better at the tournament (and thus cared about final placement) I would SERIOUSLY suspect shenanigans at this point as the two WC players there (Marc and I) were given comp scores by judges and paired up incorrectly....only now to see the actual scores "fixed" to show in the overall standings that there was no mistake in our pairings.

To me it seems like a 'retro' comp scoring to make it seem like we were paired correctly in the first and second rounds to anyone looking at the final scores. Looking at Marc's army, its obvious to anyone who plays this game that a '1' in comp is an obvious handicap. I have reservations about a 5 for my comp score but wont quibble about that.

If I actually had any possibility of winning any sort of placement, I'd take issue with the comp situation and be pretty much on fire about it. However, I failed to get the job done in battle. So be it. 5 games played over the weekend and I had a good time. I can only hope that this tournament will serve to tournament organisers as an example of how ridiculous the idea of both comp scoring (without transparent guidelines) and said judges participating in the event really is. It's truly amazing to me that someone would actually try to defend themselves in that situation.

Whatever though. A 20 comp wouldnt have saved me this past weekend. However, I'm not sure that I'll be that quick to go to another GT event here that features a comp score that isnt spelled out and/or comp judges participating in the event. I would also prefer to have point totals tallied from round to round....its not like placement between rounds is some sort of ridiculous secret.

I'm sorry if my post sounds like I'm questioning someones integrity, but its the nature of the beast. T.O.'s decided to have a GT level event that featured a comp scoring who's guidelines were hidden from all but the judges...who participated in said event. How could one NOT expect flack from the community. If you think this sort of thing is o.k. you're simply wrong, sorry. There was a lot at stake at this tournament. Complaints at the end are almost a foregone conclusion. The store did everything it could to ensure that there WERE problems at the end with this current format.

Don't want any flack directed toward you in your next event? Then feature a GT with scoring of Battle points and Appearance only. Have it flat out swiss system with posted standings between rounds. Have a panel of judges for painting that are NOT playing or at least have a cap on the points availible for their painting scores.

I dont know if out of town clubs/individuals were 'gamed' against this weekend or not. With the inconsistancies of the comp grading I'm forced to thing, "yes, we were 'gamed' against". I'm forced to feel that there might have been a little favoritism this weekend....maybe a lot. This is what happens when you're less than open with point scores. When your comp guidelines are a mystery to all attending. It's not that hard to run a tournament that this sort of thing isnt a problem. I'll never understand why people continue to "hide" between-round points, and level comp/theme demands against players instead of allowing us to play with the toys we want to play with.

Until T.O. 's begin to recognise the causes of these gripes and online arguements (comp and hidden scoring) we'll continue to have these arguements again and again.

When you have someone complaining about scores and the only scores determining table placement and ultimately the overall winners are battle and appearance, players tend to not be able to blame anyone but themselves for poor placement. What are they going to complain about? That they got massacred in the kill points mission? Or are they going to complain that the White Dwarf featured Space Wolf army pasted them in the appearance catagory when they didnt even base their army?

Run an open tournament guys, you wont have these problems.

Not that I care....I got my tail kicked this weekend anyhoo!