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Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
So, GW looks to be phasing out any scratch built terrain and boards from their stores.
The stores have been ordered to get rid of any terrain in order to better showcase their plastic kits and ROB boards.
Looks like the store managers have the final say in how the terrain is got rid of but auctions, sales, raffles or the bin are all options.
Go into your local store and have a word and a bit of a scrounge.
I've picked up couple of bargains this morning and you should be able to aswell, Not sure if this is happening outside the UK.
I'll get some pics of my haul this afternoon!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I hate to say anything against GW, BUT, if true this is surely the end of any pretence they make to be the shining light of the wargame hobby.
When GW made and publicised excellent conversions and scratchbuilds -- models and terrain -- it could act as an inspiration for everyone and a recruiter for wargaming as a hobby.
More and more GW just want to churn the teenybopper SM dollar.
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Post by: Dastardly Dave
Good grief! They are even going so far as to suppress the hobby talent of the staff and loyal customers to further shove the stuff they put out into our faces.
I mean, WTF? Did they just tell them to get rid of all the stuff they spent ages on, and display MOAR GW TOTAL AWESOME kits such as the Realm of Battle board (skulls in the ground ftw...) and replicas of kits they are already displaying?
Is this really nescassary? It sounds like yet another excuse for GW to shove more product at us and kill the hobby spirit. What's next, a decree telling all store owners that anything plastic or metal in the store should be made of only GW sanctioned plastic or metal? An order that anyone who scratchbuilds is no longer allowed to purchase GW stuff on the grounds of being a hobby heretic? No other hobby kit allowed? Really? Really? What exactly do they hope to accomplish by this?
It may be good for those lucky hobbyists who get a good deal for some scenery, but this seriously fails.
/endrant.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
Even though I'm not a big fan of GW I cant find fault in them doing this.
Their strategy is to sell ever more units of their own branded products so what better way of promoting their goods than by having them out on the table top for potential customers to see?
I'm sad to see this happen at store level but I'm too jaded to care much..onto other things.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Kilkrazy wrote:I hate to say anything against GW, BUT, if true this is surely the end of any pretence they make to be the shining light of the wargame hobby.
When GW made and publicised excellent conversions and scratchbuilds -- models and terrain -- it could act as an inspiration for everyone and a recruiter for wargaming as a hobby.
More and more GW just want to churn the teenybopper SM dollar.
ditto
Guess the writing was on the scratchbuilt wall when they took all the "how to biuld terrain" articles off the web site when it got revamped.
From a marketing point of view of course there is no fault.
But it is a sad reflection of the mentality at the top of GW
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Sounds crap, they are just making every store a clone of each other. All will have the same stupid plastic gameboard with the same selection of plastic buildings. Ugh.
Once upon a time GW stores and hobbyists were encouraged to make their own terrain and take pride in it. This is what White Dwarf terrain articles were about, making stuff yourself. Now they are just about painting their own terrain kits. Terrain is something that has been heralded as being as expensive or cheap as you want to make it, how many times have we been told that you can make high quality stuff on the cheap with some effort and imagination? And WD articles frequently used to reflect this making great stuff on a shoestring.
Part of the thing that made all GW stores unique were their gaming tables and the store armies in the cabinets. Some of them are fairly awesome. Then they started pushing more of their plastic terrain so the more and more often you see the same old pieces appear in articles and on gaming tables everywhere. But 'no worry', said some, 'it's just to give an easy option to those not inclined or able to make their own terrain'. Well now GW take the next logical step, scrap all non-company terrain from the shops.
What's the point in even selling a "How To Make Wargames Terrain" book if you're going to only use terrain out of their own plastic kits in the shops? Yet again GW put sales above the actual hobby aspects of the hobby, that being using your imagination and making stuff.
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Post by: MajorTom11
I can only think of that store with the warlord Titan, storm bird and incredible ultras drop force display.... What a shame....
It will certainly homogenize the stores, which sucks, it used to be a nice surprise knowing you would find some completely unique things in each store based on the people who run/frequent it.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
I don't know they don't go the whole hog and produce a range of pre-painted stuff.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Hush man! Don't put ideas in their heads 
Good point about the sameness of the stores.
Worse still it may also mean the promo displays of the latest release popping up all over the place.
There was some really nice stuff on the tables at the Sheffield stores.
The upside is that we have this thing called an internet forum for the swapping of ideas and encouragement of developing modelling skills.
Who needs pre made stuff when there is card, foamboard and imagination aplenty
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
The Realm of Battle board is horrible. It's got hills that you can't remove and the god-awful pit of skulls. The thought of seeing a couple of these in every shop...
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Howard A Treesong wrote:The Realm of Battle board is horrible. It's got hills that you can't remove and the god-awful pit of skulls. The thought of seeing a couple of these in every shop...
Ah but the staff can have competitions to come up with the best catchphrase for every time a model falls over those bloody awful hills when they are playing demo games:
"Hey thar mr marinez, I didn't say Go To Ground! KeKeKeKe!!"
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Post by: pguard36
Now the sound of clacking dice will be inescapable.
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Post by: Kirasu
Arent UK stores basically the size of a bathroom anyway? It is really lame, but not surprising now that GW has been acting more and more like a true corporation
They just dont have room for gaming.. the impact is fairly small yet it does send a bad message
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Post by: vinbreau
I have to agree with the sentiments here. It was the scratch-built terrain aspect that got me hooked. When I go to the hobby store it is in part to get terrain inspirations. I understand where they are coming from but I think it's bunk and is against the spirit of the DIY aspect of the hobby.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Kirasu wrote:They just dont have room for gaming.. the impact is fairly small yet it does send a bad message
But they had the room for gaming before... and now they don't... are the walls moving again!!1!???
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Post by: Kanluwen
Just a quick statement here:
They do this every few years. They've been doing it for quite awhile.
They sell off old theme based terrain that's taking up space in storage. They generally try to sell it off to FLGSes before opening it up to the public for sales. It's how my old FLGS got three former Games Day Baltimore tables.
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Post by: Orlanth
Kirasu wrote:Arent UK stores basically the size of a bathroom anyway? It is really lame, but not surprising now that GW has been acting more and more like a true corporation
They just dont have room for gaming.. the impact is fairly small yet it does send a bad message
Some are small, the Watfrod store is the smallest , its about 15'x15' about the size of a reasonable size sitting room. Most stores are much bigger twice to three times the size on average. You dont need huge shops though for GW, and yes our shops and enclosed spaces in general tend to be smaller.
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Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
I wonder if they will take How to Make Wargames Terrain off the shelves too? 
Here's my haul so far, it needs a bit of work to bring it back up to scratch.
Still some more bits to pick up!
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Post by: Gamble
I'd usually jump on the GW Hate train with both feet, but I think this could be a good thing. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the shops will be able to convert the existing terrain and boards? For example, combining terrain and filling in the skull pits.
It's all fine and deandy to have the Battle Board packed and ready for the next sucker to buy it, but it couldn't hurt sales to have some out actually being used and showing what you can do with them.
I think it would be silly for GW to dump EVERY SINGLE terrain piece that they don't make officially though. There are holes in the line that need to be filled with custom builds. This could also be a win for players who have their own boards and get some nice unique terrain above their building levels.
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Post by: General Mayhem
I spent £14 and got 4 nice pieces of scatter terrain this morning. They were also selling off bags of bitz, old blisters and boxes plus several fully painted armies and a lot of painted stuff from out of the display cabinets. My son bought a box of 5 knights on cold ones and a dozen of the old metal temple guard for £20.
I think it's great to get a bargain at my FLGS, and I plan to keep going back as more stuff will be cleared out.
I have no problem with them having a clear out, why not? The terrain used by the "club" members was getting a bit tatty and the boards could do with some fresh paint and a bit of flock.
The ROB boards are a bit problematic when trying to put models on the slopes, maybe it would have been better done as flat "contours" but it is what it is. I have one at home and use it most of the time. The skull pits are just painted the same base colours as the rest of the rocks and look fine. If they bugged me I would fill them with water effect and make them into bogs. With a variety of scatter painted with similar base colours I can rearrange it in more than enough different ways to keep it interesting. I still have my COD mat and the flat grass mat when I dont want the hills. I use the base hardboard on my table if I want a desert. If my FLGS can make up each of its six tables to show that kind of variety and the scatter pieces are varied then I'm a happy gamer : )
They are a SHOP first and a club second. They don't charge me for my games at Vets night each week, so I try to buy my hobby stuff from them as a way of saying "keep up the good work" because if they close the shop I loose my club night games AND the convenience of a local hobby supplier with (generally) useful help and advice. For more scratch build, conversions, alternative game systems and the rest there is DAKKA and the rest of the internet. Whats the problem?
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Post by: NoShoes
My local GW recently had a big auction of old stuff, including old models and terrain, however, on the boards was new scratch built stuff (there was a big sewerworks and trench system). So scratchbuilts aren't dead, (yet).
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Post by: Kanluwen
Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I wonder if they will take How to Make Wargames Terrain off the shelves too?
Here's my haul so far, it needs a bit of work to bring it back up to scratch.
Still some more bits to pick up!
Hell of a good haul man. Was that stuff out in the store for playing on for awhile? Because there's not much of the normal wear and tear.
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Post by: Kolath
Has anyone heard about this happening in the US? I'd love to pickup some nice scratch built terrain or bitz on the cheap.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Haven't heard anything about it Kolath, but it's possible. Keep an ear to the ground and you should be able to hear about it.
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Post by: Aduro
Does this apply to Hills as well? Because their selection of Hills they sell is rather barren.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I very much doubt this is them doing anything other than clearing out specifically themed tables to have more generic ones that can work for Fantasy, 40k, and Lord of the Rings.
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Post by: Necros
I don't like the idea but it is a sound business decision. GW stores are a place to buy GW products and what better way to show them off? It's a branding kinda thing. All GW all the time!
All the more reason to play and buy from your FLGSes 
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Post by: Kolath
Except what if GW is the only FLGS in town? It's hard to see how they can maintain a community if they downplay all the DIY elements of the hobby.
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Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
Kanluwen wrote:Hell of a good haul man. Was that stuff out in the store for playing on for awhile? Because there's not much of the normal wear and tear.
Yeah, they were available to play on for ages they are a bit beaten up but nothing too savage or unfixable.
Aduro wrote:Does this apply to Hills as well? Because their selection of Hills they sell is rather barren.
As far as I can tell ALL scratch hills, rivers, boards or anything else are going to have to go.
If staff want different shaped hills they will have to cut down/join together existing citadel hills. If they need plasticard they will have to use movement trays or tank doors.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Somehow this news is worse to me than even the price increase. We knew they were already doing it anyway, but still...disappointing.
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Post by: syanticraven
A member of my Local GW started telling me about these. He really wanted the sale and I really hate the idea of them.
"Its £150 and you get 6 half board deigned..."
I was like what!? I'm away to B&Q I can make my own for a hell of a lot cheaper and I will enjoy it more.
Then he started telling me all the great things about it, okay so it is premade and they do look neat, but so is my dinners most nights and they dont cost me my soul.
There is no way I am buying them. I like the idea of them using it to show off but I want the actual game boards to be custom made. If I cant make/move/rebuild a board then what's the point? I don't want the same game every time I play.
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Post by: reds8n
Kanluwen wrote:Just a quick statement here:
They do this every few years. They've been doing it for quite awhile.
Indeed.
My local sold off a few itmes of terrain -- the most expensive being the old chapel piece -- the one with the stained glass window that they pushed..then removed..then gave away..then sold as a rare piece.. a few years ago.
Then they sold off a load of models that were sat in the store cupboards, mainly things like metal trolls, old WoC models, some of the many marine armies, old dark elf models,, basically a stock clearence type affair.
If all goes to plan then tomorrow I should get a painted Salamander Land Raider and ork weirdboy ! 
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Post by: Kanluwen
I really don't get why people are thinking this is the end of the world.
Generic tables with nothing tying them to one system(even if they're just based off the ROB) are a far better option if you've got limited gaming space.
But yeah, I wish I had a local GW now to go loot it for terrain for my home table.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The reason why people are disappointed is because GW were for a long time genuinely a leader in the wargame hobby. They demonstrated this in part by their encouragement and examples of going beyond the off-the-shelf stuff and use your imagination and skills to make something new and interesting.
If the news is true, that is going away thanks to a market segmentation plan which is basically to spoon-feed teenyboppers ready-made stuff and spurn veterans.
That certainly makes sense from the viewpoint of maximising Citadel model sales, but it's disappointing to a genuine wargamer.
All the terrain will be the same standardised Imperial kits, so there won't be as much variety.
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Post by: reds8n
Kilkrazy wrote:
If the news is true, that is going away thanks to a market segmentation plan which is basically to spoon-feed teenyboppers ready-made stuff and spurn veterans.
Yeah.
With all due respect to the OP... I'm not entirely sure this is quite the case.
For example last weekend my local store had a deal where you spent ..err....£X ( enough to cover the cost of the kit and literally a £ or 2 more ) .. and you built and took home one of the Citadel forest kits; basing materials, water affects, glue, sand, odds and sods from the bitz box etc etc and were taught how to build your own "swamp" scenery piece..all included.
This was then followed up with games involving the new river trolls and the terrain pieces constructed.
I'm sure there is, to go along with the recent dropping of the "10 commandments" and their recent "reshuffling" ( ie lets add another level of middle management ..much like we used to have before, with regards to regional sales managers anyway ) pressure to "push" the GW kits and models but I think the store managers are, generally, given a bit more leeway with regards to things like this if... IF sales/turnover is good.
I agree that sucks and they should give out free glue/paint/baneblades/sexual favours......*thinks*...hmm...maybe not the latter upon reflection...upon demand.. but.. well... times is tough.
Not as tough as they make out IMO... but WTF do I know eh ...
..
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Post by: syanticraven
Well to be fair they are a business trying to make money and are not stopping you for building your own boards and terrains, just offering you an alternative (an expensive one)
Which I like, if you are not good at the whole board making thing or you dont have time ect you can buy them at a high cost.
But I like making my own boards and such it feels better when playing.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
We know they are a business because every second post says so.
Point is Little Timmy goes in with momsy and popsy
get the spiel, buy the stuff
Fine as far as it goes' which is only as far as a pound coin will stretch
The real cost is the imagination and creativity that has gone unused. All Timmy has learned is how to spend momsy and popsy's dosh.
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Post by: Fifty
General Mayhem wrote:They are a SHOP first and a club second. They don't charge me for my games at Vets night each week...
Yet.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Fifty wrote:General Mayhem wrote:They are a SHOP first and a club second. They don't charge me for my games at Vets night each week...
Yet.
And even then they often only let you play the big three, none of the others. So even buying only GW stuff isn't good enough for them, it has to be their popular stuff. To sell you models and games and tell you that you can't play them in store because they are "specialist" games has some cheek. Can you even play Space Hulk in store at the moment?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Ah but specialist games tend not to rely on crate loads of mini armies to play.
or am I being cynical?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
GW's terrain has expanded quite a bit in recent years, and it's not hard to make detailed and versatile terrain using only GW kits.
Unless you use the Realm of Battle Battleboard.
As soon as you add that thing into the mix, each table becomes the same limited canvass and results in the same thing happening every time. Want to play a forest map? Ok, but you'll have those hills and skull pits. Wanna play a coastal map? Ok, but you'll have those hills and skull pits! How about an ice world? Ok, but you'll still have those hills and skull pits. A flat scarred wasteland, covered in craters and the remnants from orbital bombardments? Ok, but those hills and skull pits are always going to be there. What about a nice detailed urban land scape, filled with a nice grid-like map of the streets and buildings? Sounds great, but you'll have to work that around the ever-present hills and skull pits.
The RoB Board is anti-imagination, and if GW stores really have been ordered to get rid of everything that they cannot sell, then those tables will suffer for it.
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Post by: Commander Endova
As others have said, the big problem with the ROB is lack of variety. I don;t mind the new policy so much, but I agree that I wish I didn't have to play with the same 4 hills and 2 flats. I simply wish that there were more tiles for the RoB system, like lakes, streams, more hills, roads, trenches, one where you could drill out holes for trees with pegs... This would let GW kill 2 birds with one stone. I'd also say I wished for things other than Imperial terrain, (although, Ork terrain is pretty easy to bung together with a sizable bitz box) but I've been wishing for that way before this happened.
Before any want to accuse me of being a GW apologist, I'm just saying, I suppose the only reason I don;t mind the policy change is because I haven't seen any home built terrain pieces that really wow'd me. Most of it is so obvious that it used to be a card board box, or a soda can, or whatever else.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Supposedly, we're going to be seeing new tiles for the RoB, at some point--but we just have no clue when at all.
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Post by: TyraelVladinhurst
if, or should i say when, this policy happens here i know i'll be headed down to the Chicago battlebunker to get a few of their tables. in all honesty it is a sad day
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Post by: Sidstyler
Howard A Treesong wrote:Can you even play Space Hulk in store at the moment?
http://www.the-vanus-temple.com/?p=1955
For some reason, my local GW won’t let us play Space Hulk in the store, no idea why..
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Post by: NAVARRO
A smart GW store facing these changes would use the GW plastid board to promote sales on it and then create lots of scratchbuilts like mountains etc on top of it to promote the sale of the hobby related products like flocks glues etc and mix them with GW kits.
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Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
I'm not sure that that would be allowed. Excessive use of sheet styrene, foamboard, plasticard, expanding foam, chicken wire etc are all out.
The best they could do to get a mountain or cliff face, as an example, would be cutting rockface sections from the ROB and modular hills. Glueing them together and greenstuffing the joins.
Customer: Wow, that's a pretty cool looking mountain.
Staff: Yeah, it's all made with stuff you can buy from this store.
Customer: Awesome, what would I need to build my own at home?
Staff: Ok, that's made from 16 hill sections. so that'll be two ROB boards at £300 and I think we used about 48 strips of GS and 8 tubes of glue.
It's really ace because you will have all of the flat sections from your ROB boards left over.
You can use this to make new terrain from or make half a flat ROB board with built in bolter noises every time you roll the dice!
Customer: Hmmmm (Exits stage right).
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Post by: NAVARRO
Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I'm not sure that that would be allowed. Excessive use of sheet styrene, foamboard, plasticard, expanding foam, chicken wire etc are all out.
The best they could do to get a mountain or cliff face, as an example, would be cutting rockface sections from the ROB and modular hills. Glueing them together and greenstuffing the joins.
Customer: Wow, that's a pretty cool looking mountain.
Staff: Yeah, it's all made with stuff you can buy from this store.
Customer: Awesome, what would I need to build my own at home?
Staff: Ok, that's made from 16 hill sections. so that'll be two ROB boards at £300 and I think we used about 48 strips of GS and 8 tubes of glue.
It's really ace because you will have all of the flat sections from your ROB boards left over.
You can use this to make new terrain from or make half a flat ROB board with built in bolter noises every time you roll the dice!
Customer: Hmmmm (Exits stage right).
In my interpretation that would be the oposite of "smart" GW store.
I have been looking for a terrain board for my place, and man GW kits are very nice to populate boards but the actual board is PITA to play on with those atached hills... and I dont even going to mention the price. Its boring to look at and you still have to flock it if you dont want an even more slippery hills.
I have read some reviews about the joins and well they are not that tight... so what I'm trying to say is if GW stores are only going to carry these as they are out of the box not only is boring and a world of frustation to manouvre on those hills but its POINTLESS.
I say pointless because this is a product aimed for your house, since its easy to store in tight places after its used... but GW stores have permanent tables. In your house you have to swallow the crappy joints, and the cutted board in 2X2 squares that look not so good when comparing to a full board... but on a store with permanent table you dont have to swallow that.
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Post by: CynthiaCM
I would be entirely fine with this decision if GW's terrain range was expansive enough to have some variety. While it's true that they've increased their ready-made terrain in recent years, they still don't have enough of certain key ingredients (hills, roads, etc.) to make this decision worthwhile.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Or if you are wanting terrain for home or club you can make your own!
As I have said elsewhere, for the money I am not impressed with the engineering and fit of parts of the buildings.
Not only that Cynthia, but the 40K range seems centred on Imperium landscapes.
Ok given the dominance of the SM market that is sort of understandable, but don't SM's ever go off world?
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Post by: Gamble
Maybe they only make Imperial Terrain so "Timmy" can use his imagination and creativity to make Xenos terrain.
It strikes me as odd that you're against GW manufactured terrain in one post and then complain, for lack of a better word, about them not making more terrain.
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
Smug mode I'm not the best terrain maker in the world, so I'm glad I hung on to all those old WDs and the making terrain book.
Another nail in the coffin of the GW stores. Does anybody remember the relaxed days of bearded bikers painting their miniatures, or being able to have a few cans of cider whilst playing the games? Those days, these types of gamers, and the managers that encouraged that kind of atmosphere, are long gone, and there is a tear in my eye.
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Post by: CynthiaCM
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Not only that Cynthia, but the 40K range seems centred on Imperium landscapes.
Ok given the dominance of the SM market that is sort of understandable, but don't SM's ever go off world?
Agreed. I'd like to see some structures that are perhaps still human, but are less Imperium-based. Like fero-crete warehouses, tenement block, residential blocks, etc. Plus, some non-human stuff would be great too. But GW seems intent on making all their buildings to be of the gothicy Imperium variety.
You know, upon reflection, I prefer the types of buildings featured in 1st edition rulebook to the stuff they currently push.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Gamble wrote:Maybe they only make Imperial Terrain so "Timmy" can use his imagination and creativity to make Xenos terrain.
It strikes me as odd that you're against GW manufactured terrain in one post and then complain, for lack of a better word, about them not making more terrain.
My dear old thing, I'm not complaining, just observing. (that is the word you were looking for  )
Timmy will have jacked in 40K long before he gives a damn about Xenos terrain anyway!
For the record, I'm not against GW terrain per se.
It is preferable imho if people can have a go and make their own.
One of the pleasurable aspects of Dakka is seeing the creativity and imagination that members display in producing there own table top accessories.
Some of it is inspiring.
Also there are other makers of excellent stuff out there if you want to spend your dollars.
What I am objecting to is the standardising of terrain types and the poor fit of the stuff they do make, given how much they charge for the kits.
Not really being much of a gamer I can only speculate that it must be more interesting to play on differently styled and unique tables rather than a slight variation on a theme.
The same old quasi-gothic manufactotem starts to dull the senses.
I like how people reflect there personalities through how the collect and model their armies.
All I am saying is that it is good to do the same with the terrain.
Not really familiar with the 1st ed Cynthia ;*)
Have seen Gorkamunda style buildings, is that close?
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Post by: Lyracian
The battle board look nice enough but they are a bit plain compared to the "Mines of Moria" our local GW did have in the shop.
£150 for six boards seems a bit over the top. I am currenlty making my own board for playing on at home. For £35 I got a MDF Board as a base some plained timber for a border and polystyrene sheets to make the terrain features. That is 1/4 of the GW cost (plus a little time to assemble).
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Post by: Necros
I like GW's terrain, but it would be real nice if they made some xenos stuff, and it could still be used on any board really.. like some eldar ruins, or nid spore spikey things that FW has.
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Post by: Cypher871
Howard A Treesong wrote:
And even then they often only let you play the big three, none of the others. So even buying only GW stuff isn't good enough for them, it has to be their popular stuff. To sell you models and games and tell you that you can't play them in store because they are "specialist" games has some cheek. Can you even play Space Hulk in store at the moment?
Twenty Seven years ago I played my first ever GW game...the original Black & White Talisman boardgame. Since then I have played everything from Rogue Trooper to Man-O-War, Hero Quest to Space Crusade to Battlefleet Gothic and everything in between as well as Fantasy and 40K...they have always concentrated on the popular stuff because that is what they want to showcase to prospective customers. Sadly I have seen the stores go from a gamers inspiration to the current incarnation and it 'aint pretty. 40K has aways been my first love and the models keep getting better but I refuse to buy them direct from GW anymore, not when there are on-line stores willing to sell stuff at a 20% discount.
That said I did let the wife buy me the FW Model Masterclass book on Saturday...early birthday pressie but the she won't let me take it out of the cellophane yet...BOOO!
The new "trainee manager" tried flogging me a box of terrain bits for £20 but I declined. I have a load of profesionally made modular terrain boards and hills that I bought years ago and still use now. There are any number of companies who produce excellent quality modular terrain at a fraction of the cost of GW's ROB crap...even a cursory Google search will find a good number of them. No fixed hills or skull pits or extra's to buy to paint, flock or sand the darned things either.
I asked the manager if he frequented Dakka to which he replied "I try to stay off the forums".
"why?" said I "don't you like hearing the truth about your companies money-grabbing ways?"...a resigned shake of the head was my answer and that from a new member of staff.
GW is now a corporate monster catering to our hobby and touting themselves as the pinnacle of Wargaming evolution and sadly we are hooked. I will never give up my hobby but maybe there will come a day when we all say enough is enough and turn elsewhere for our fix...till then we will continue to lap it up. 
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Post by: Kanluwen
Or he probably wasn't too thrilled to hear something equivalent to the imbeciles who holler at the families of politicians about their family members.
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Post by: NecronLord3
I can't believe they could possibly be considering this if any other store is anything like the Chicago Battle Bunker in Downers Grove IL. They must have something like 30+ tables(probably more with the expansion) of which 90% of them are scratch built. It certainly would take away any reason for me to go out there to play any non-competitive games.
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Post by: TyraelVladinhurst
NecronLord3 wrote:I can't believe they could possibly be considering this if any other store is anything like the Chicago Battle Bunker in Downers Grove IL. They must have something like 30+ tables(probably more with the expansion) of which 90% of them are scratch built. It certainly would take away any reason for me to go out there to play any non-competitive games.
agreed, but it would be nice if they sold their trench line board
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Post by: Kanluwen
Once again:
This is nothing new. They do this every few years, wherein they clear out old tables and scenery to make way for new stuff.
There has been absolutely no real indication of them "getting rid of scratch-builds" from their stores.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I wonder if they will take How to Make Wargames Terrain off the shelves too?
No, but I understand there's going to be a new version based on the RoB gameboard, and various terrain kits that GW sells...
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Post by: Lyracian
Kanluwen wrote:There has been absolutely no real indication of them "getting rid of scratch-builds" from their stores.
I was in our local GW today and they have replaced all the scratch-build terrain with Battle boards. Other users are reporting the same so I think that is really good indication...
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Post by: Kanluwen
Other UK users.
Who also complain that the shops are small and crowded.
Y'know, I'm thinking I'm seeing a reason why they're using smaller, modular boards rather than large scratchbuilds...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Come to think of it: Pretty much every official GW shop is fairly cramped and small. Being able to have tables they can disassemble and store or assemble as more are needed isn't a bad idea. Keeping the larger terrain pieces to go on the tables as separate pieces isn't a bad idea either.
If we see them start selling off the stuff at the Battle Bunkers and Warhammer World, then you all can start back up with the bitching that they're "BANNING CREATIVITY!", etc etc.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Lyracian wrote:The battle board look nice enough but they are a bit plain compared to the "Mines of Moria" our local GW did have in the shop.
£150 for six boards seems a bit over the top. I am currenlty making my own board for playing on at home. For £35 I got a MDF Board as a base some plained timber for a border and polystyrene sheets to make the terrain features. That is 1/4 of the GW cost (plus a little time to assemble).
At the risk of seeming to make an anti- GW rant, £150 for six boards is well over the top.
For £150 you can have a hand-made 6x4 feet terrain mat, with 12 feet of roads and several feet of river sections, and two pieces of area terrain such as marshes or rough ground, and delivery, from www.terrainmat.com. Everything is customised to your colour choice, ready to unroll and start playing.
http://www.terrainmat.com/
Alternatively, as you say, you can buy enough DIY supplies to make a ton of your own terrain.
However Timmy would prefer to buy GW terrain off the shelf, and fair does to him.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
It must be these newer stores that are tiny, most of the ones I've been in are a decent size with 2-3 fixed tables. I know some of these one man US stores are supposed to be rather small but it's not what I know of UK stores. I've been in quite a lot of GW stores over the years, I would always pop into the one in a new town I was visiting and tick them off in the list in White Dwarf.
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Post by: Roxerboxers
My local games workshop has begun getting rid of all the old tables. They had a competition and I won an awesome scratch-built gaming table.
And I mean its amazing, the though of them replacing it with a ROB table is so stupid.
I'll see if I can get a picture if it.
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Post by: metallifan
Kanluwen wrote:If we see them start selling off the stuff at the Battle Bunkers and Warhammer World, then you all can start back up with the bitching that they're "BANNING CREATIVITY!", etc etc.
QFT. West Edmonton Mall GW is so small that their boards are typically no bigger than 3X3. As far as playing surface goes, RoB is a huge upgrade for stores like those. But until I actually see them throwing out scratchbuilt terrain and converted minis -after- the sale, I'm not jumping to conclusions. Yes, I know GW loves our money more than they love us these days, but I also like to think that there's still a glimmer of hope that they don't want to completely crap on the soul of the hobby. I frequently find myself disappointed, but there've been times where I've proclaimed "Good job GW!" without being sarcastic.
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Post by: jackvolerich
you guy keep always bash and talk badly about GW, but in the end you still play the hobby/game. So for all you who truly despise GW and talk badly about them why do you still buy there stuff and play their hobby? Hypercritical I think so.
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Post by: Cypher871
jackvolerich wrote:you guy keep always bash and talk badly about GW, but in the end you still play the hobby/game. So for all you who truly despise GW and talk badly about them why do you still buy there stuff and play their hobby? Hypercritical I think so.
Most gamers who have spent any length of time and effort on this hobby have come to love it. Much like the motor enthusiast who lavishes attention on their car but still grumbles about the price of petrol (well, at least if you live in the tax hell of the UK anyway) I for one would find it very hard to turn my back on the hobby after being seriously involved with it for quarter of a century.
I can afford to buy my models...that doesn't mean I want to pay extortionate prices for them. I appreciate that prices will always go up due to inflation and GW, like every other business, is suffering from the financial fallout of last year, however, this hobby started out as something just about everybody could afford...now if you want to get into it you need some serious capital.
The advertising is now aimed at younger audiences, whereas, when I first started it was the province of your average student. What chance does a youngster stand of being able to build an army without some serious parental financial investment these days.
Last year I started an Ork army with my 15 year old son (who rather lost interest I have to say because I did all the model work). I bought his half of the army from him for £280 the other week and he has now bought himself a decent sized Tyranid army which he has built himself (aside from all the darned pinning of the metal models which I did for him).
Now if we bought directly from GW the same size army would have cost another £56 on top of the £280. As it is he now has the new codex, a Hive Tyrant, Carnifex, Mawloc and Biovore. 2 Pyrovores, 2 Tyrant Guards, 2 Hive Guards and 2 Lictors. 3 Zoanthropes, 8 Warriors, 8 Stealers, 30 Gaunts and 30 Termies, 17 spore mines and god knows how many rippers. It might sound a lot of kit for your money but when it comes right down to it, it's just some moulded plastic and metal for a whole lot of cash.
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Post by: General Mayhem
Does anyone who lives in the Nottingham area or who has visited Warhammer World recently know what is happening there regarding gaming boards? Last time I was there was before ROB boards came out and every table had an element of scratch build. Some of them were really nice terrain sets too. Have they or are they getting rid of those?
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Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
Here's a few more bits from my haul!
2
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
All replaced with RoB's?
Wow...
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Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
I think that my local store will be having 3 permanent ROBs. One per system.
They are going to drag out gaming mats on chipboard for games nights!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
jackvolerich wrote:you guy keep always bash and talk badly about GW, but in the end you still play the hobby/game. So for all you who truly despise GW and talk badly about them why do you still buy there stuff and play their hobby? Hypercritical I think so.
It's not their hobby, it's our hobby.
I'll buy and use whatever GW stuff I want, alongside all my wargaming stuff from other companies.
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Post by: Lyracian
jackvolerich wrote:you guy keep always bash and talk badly about GW, but in the end you still play the hobby/game. So for all you who truly despise GW and talk badly about them why do you still buy there stuff and play their hobby? Hypercritical I think so.
I do not despise GW. However when you have played a game for 15 years there is a lot of time/money invested to just turn your back on a game. I just think it is sad the route they are taking...
It does not bother me what GW does with there shops. I never buy anything from the store anyway. The FLGS down the road gives me a 20% discount on any Warhammer I want and there are dozens of on-line sites I can buy terrain for my own games. I use the old cardboard Necromunda buildings for my games.
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Post by: redbristles
Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I wonder if they will take How to Make Wargames Terrain off the shelves too?
Here's my haul so far, it needs a bit of work to bring it back up to scratch.
Still some more bits to pick up!
Hey I thought I'd seen that LotR Argonath themed board before, just realised you're at Bristol too! Did they just let you get it for free? If so that's pretty amazing, I always liked the look of that board. Worth me going into town today to see if there's anything else?
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Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
I had to buy it but I didn't pay too much.
It's not worth you going into town to look for more bits as I cleared them out on Monday but don't worry, it hasn't gone far.
I'm in the process of setting up a new independent store in Bristol and this clearout couldn't have come at a better time for me!
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Post by: ghosty
Right, i literally just phoned up my GW, and yeah, they're selling off old mini's and some of their boards. Interestingly, not all the ones that arent ROB boards. Either way, i think this is fairly good. It means people who have no chance of making stuff like this have the chance. I want me a cities of death board!
I wonder if they'll be selling their skyscraper board.....?
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Kilkrazy wrote:jackvolerich wrote:you guy keep always bash and talk badly about GW, but in the end you still play the hobby/game. So for all you who truly despise GW and talk badly about them why do you still buy there stuff and play their hobby? Hypercritical I think so.
It's not their hobby, it's our hobby.
Quite right. We buy stuff and play games on our terms not theirs.
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Post by: Lorne
Went to the GW here on Monday, no sell offs yet and they have not heard anything about the UK one.
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Post by: metallifan
Lorne wrote:Went to the GW here on Monday, no sell offs yet and they have not heard anything about the UK one.
Yea, but GW HQ could go bankrupt and I'd bet you the rest of their stores wouldn't hear about it for months
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Post by: Lorne
They would complain that they are not getting any stock though.
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Post by: metallifan
They still have a factory and warehouses in North America. But they'd be too concerned with selling Ult-hurrrr-ah-marines to tweens to really notice anything amiss
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Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
I wonder if they will do that at the Glen Bernie bunker. May have to make a trip for that auction.
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Post by: Lorne
I thought some things were only in the UK, I remember a container of wave serpents or grav tanks being lost in the ocen during shipping once.
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Post by: Lorne
Oops, double post.
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Post by: Kolath
Grr... Not all ultramarine players are "tweens" you know.
I just called my local GW store in northern Virginia and the manager said he hadn't heard of any of this going on in North America. He said he usually raffles terrain and figures when they have excess supply to get rid of.
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Post by: metallifan
Lorne wrote:I thought some things were only in the UK, I remember a container of wave serpents or grav tanks being lost in the ocean during shipping once.
Probably -why- they made NA more self-sufficient
Seriously. In the middle of the ocean? Somehow just plopped a container off the edge?
Classic fail
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lorne wrote:I thought some things were only in the UK, I remember a container of wave serpents or grav tanks being lost in the ocean during shipping once.
It was the molds destined for the North American factory/distribution center that were "lost".
Funny thing is, it coincided with knock-off Wave Serpents cropping up on eBay...
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Post by: VikingScott
So my eldar army really did fall of the back of a cargo ship into the ocean.......
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Post by: nels1031
VikingScott wrote:So my eldar army really did fall of the back of a cargo ship into the ocean.......
When I was stationed in Germany, it was pretty much an accepted fact of life that anything you had shipped over had a good chance of "falling off the boat". Suspiciously, it always seemed to be nice cars,motorcycles, furniture and random items that were hard to get/expensive in Europe. An MP that worked in customs told us that it was most likely theft for black markets, but there was nothing they could do or prove, and anything lost would be compensated for at retail or Blue Book cost, in the case of cars. Always seemed to me like an insurance scam.
Back on topic, I think this makes good business sense for GW to do this. By featuring only their terrain, they have more opportunity to sell their product. Plenty of businesses due similar things.
I just hope this gives them impetus to make a better(no skulls please), cheaper($300 is outrageous) RoB board and more varied terrain (ie xenos terrain please)!
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Post by: Lorne
Apparently it is quite common for things to fall off container ships during storms. Chains can only hold so much.
Sadly my GW has kind of cruddy terrain. When I was there they are using mostly GW kits anyways.
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Post by: don_mondo
NELS1031 wrote:VikingScott wrote:So my eldar army really did fall of the back of a cargo ship into the ocean.......
When I was stationed in Germany, it was pretty much an accepted fact of life that anything you had shipped over had a good chance of "falling off the boat". Suspiciously, it always seemed to be nice cars,motorcycles, furniture and random items that were hard to get/expensive in Europe. An MP that worked in customs told us that it was most likely theft for black markets, but there was nothing they could do or prove, and anything lost would be compensated for at retail or Blue Book cost, in the case of cars. Always seemed to me like an insurance scam.
Heh, I remember when I was there a family was hitting the fleamarket one more time befpre PCSing (after their household goods shipped) when the wife spotted a bunch of her handcast ceramics that had just been shipped sitting at one of the booths. I lost a footlocker with all my ropes and climbing gear, a crossbow, knives, etc. I packed it and locked it, they never saw what was in it but it was the only item that didn't make it back to the US.
Anyways, on topic, guess I'll have to check out the local GW stores, see if there's anything the IFL can use.
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Post by: Redemption
H.B.M.C. wrote:GW's terrain has expanded quite a bit in recent years, and it's not hard to make detailed and versatile terrain using only GW kits.
Unless you use the Realm of Battle Battleboard.
As soon as you add that thing into the mix, each table becomes the same limited canvass and results in the same thing happening every time. Want to play a forest map? Ok, but you'll have those hills and skull pits. Wanna play a coastal map? Ok, but you'll have those hills and skull pits! How about an ice world? Ok, but you'll still have those hills and skull pits. A flat scarred wasteland, covered in craters and the remnants from orbital bombardments? Ok, but those hills and skull pits are always going to be there. What about a nice detailed urban land scape, filled with a nice grid-like map of the streets and buildings? Sounds great, but you'll have to work that around the ever-present hills and skull pits.
The RoB Board is anti-imagination, and if GW stores really have been ordered to get rid of everything that they cannot sell, then those tables will suffer for it.
I'm sorry if I sound rude, but it seems more like a lack of imagination on your part. I've seen plenty of beautiful RoB boards. For example, these two didn't like the skull pits either, and simply got rid of them with minimal conversion work:
- Lava Board
- Frozen Lake
Or you could just put a building/crater/forest/hill/trench/swamp/mountain on top of the pits or hills:
- Trench board WIP
- Balin's Tomb WIP (other angle)
And if you don't want the hills, you can also just get the set with the 2 flat panels or add some 2x2' MDF panels.
Now, if the board is worth the £125 pricetag is up to everyone to decide for themselves. The same could be said for most of the Forgeworld stuff. We just have an expensive hobby I'm afraid. I bought a RoB to save time now to have a nice quick moulded terrain, and I can always expand it later. If GW never releases new compatible panels, I can always make my own when I have more time.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Fair comment about imagination to convert the pit and hills.
But when forking out £125 it's a poor show if you have to improve it.
If you are going to do all that then it might as be as well just to get the raw materials and make your own anyways
Another factor regarding the price tag is the main market for the RoB would be people lacking confidence in their modelling skills.
Some folks are not going to feel comfortable chopping up expensive terrain. You have to be confident in your modelling abilities or swimming in dosh so you don't give a gakk if you pooch it up!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Redemption wrote:I'm sorry if I sound rude, but it seems more like a lack of imagination on your part. I've seen plenty of beautiful RoB boards. For example, these two didn't like the skull pits either, and simply got rid of them with minimal conversion work: - Lava Board - Frozen Lake
They look wonderful. And they're both the same. Different coats of paint, exactly the same terrain. Who wants to play on the same terrain in each game? Yeah... spend all that money on an RoB just to go out of my way to remove/alter the permanent terrain. If you're heavily converting the board to remove existing features and change things around, then that basically screams out what's wrong with the RoB board in the first place. Far cheaper to just make it yourself. Redemption wrote:And if you don't want the hills, you can also just get the set with the 2 flat panels or add some 2x2' MDF panels.
Or just get MDF to begin with, and not waste time with over-priced plastic that costs even more to change. Redemption wrote:I bought a RoB to save time now to have a nice quick moulded terrain, and I can always expand it later.
But the RoB isn't complete just as is. You still have to put terrain on it. What was stopping you from just having a flat piece of MDF, a few of the many types of mats that are sold out there (even GW's green textured cloth is quite good - I've got one of those) and then spending all that saved money on the terrain you had to buy anyway? Did you need the hills? Aren't the existing GW hills (some of which show up on the pictures you posted) good enough. It's not a complete product. It's not a battlefield in a box type thing with enough to play a game on ('cept maybe Fantasy). What's 'quicker' about it, really?
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Post by: Sir Motor
Even in japan,this is happening.
Scratch build Terrain & Objective marker gone.
My local GW shop manager is really good at Scratch build & Conversion. I'm sad I cant see those terrains.
Where is creativity gone? Isn't that one of aspect of hobby which GW recommend? I saw lot scratch build thing in "PLANET STRIKE".
Very sad.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Once again:
The selling off of scratch-built terrain/objective markers is not a sign of them "banning creativity".
They sell off the stuff every few years, just so they can have room for making more.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yet all the reports indicate that this is being done expressly to ensure that the only terrain in-store is GW produced and on sale to buy.
If that's wrong, then fine, but right now your fingers-in-the-damn defence of GW is starting to sound like a broken record.
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Post by: Kanluwen
The vast majority of the scratch-built stuff they sell off are things like swamps or small forests.
Anything bigger or more complex is usually sent to Warhammer World or a Battle Bunker.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, since you're going to tout this as some kind of "blind faith" in the company?
If they've been doing it for years?
This is not a sudden change in company policy. This is something they've done to the point where it's reasonably predictable.
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
If its just a sell off to clear the backroom out then bugger, I wish I was already back home to pick up some cheap terrain.
If it is indicative of a policy change to replace the terrain in store with ROB boards and GW standard terrain then GW have finally removed my one remaining reason for going to a Gw store. To buy tools? Nope, cheaper elsewhere. Paint? Nope, cheaper elsewhere. Minis? Nope, cheaper online. The only reason I went was to play games on nice terrain and despite knowing I'd be better off buying online I ended up buying some paint/figs whilst I was there. If there is no nice terrain to go to the store for then I might as well play at home or try and set up some kind of gaming club.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Kanluwen wrote:Once again:
The selling off of scratch-built terrain/objective markers is not a sign of them "banning creativity".
No one has said anything about banning creativity. The lack of encouragement is the issue.
apologies if the whole post is in a quotes box
no idea why
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Once again:
The selling off of scratch-built terrain/objective markers is not a sign of them "banning creativity".
quote]
No one has said anything about banning creativity. The lack of promoting it or encouragement is the issue.
I agree with that.
It leads to the mentality where some new players -- we have seen them on Dakka -- ask questions like, "Am I allowed to do this or that or whatever?" as if GW control it all.
I once saw a post (on the old EoT forums) and the youngster asked if he was allowed to paint his St Celestian model a different colour to the GW original.
It's your game, your models, your terrain. You can do anything you like as long as your fellow players still want to play with you.
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Post by: filbert
H.B.M.C. , you make some very valid points and I certainly don't wish to refute any of them, however you can't deny that GW has seen a gap in the market and filled it. There are plenty of us for whom the attraction of making terrain has always looked like a curse. I have been waiting 20 years for GW to produce pre made terrain kits, and now they do, I couldn't be happier because quite frankly, there are enough of us who don't have the time, skill, flair or talent to make terrain, myself included.
All of this convenience has indeed come at the price of homogenisation but from my own point of view, my gaming board at home looks a million times better than anything I could have produced.
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Post by: Druidic
Warhammer world did an auction last weekend for the grand re-opening, some real bargins, like the vampire counts army, painted, in a box, £80, its just what they do!
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Post by: don_mondo
Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of the scratch-built stuff they sell off are things like swamps or small forests.
Anything bigger or more complex is usually sent to Warhammer World or a Battle Bunker.
Except for the eight 4' x 6' GT tables that US HQ gave one of our local stores. Guess they didn't feel like moving them to Memphis................
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Post by: Kilkrazy
filbert wrote:H.B.M.C. , you make some very valid points and I certainly don't wish to refute any of them, however you can't deny that GW has seen a gap in the market and filled it. There are plenty of us for whom the attraction of making terrain has always looked like a curse. I have been waiting 20 years for GW to produce pre made terrain kits, and now they do, I couldn't be happier because quite frankly, there are enough of us who don't have the time, skill, flair or talent to make terrain, myself included.
All of this convenience has indeed come at the price of homogenisation but from my own point of view, my gaming board at home looks a million times better than anything I could have produced.
Ready made terrain has been around for decades. There are many forms including expanded poly squares and hexes, mats, hills, buildings and so on.
What GW have done is make a board and some building kits in hard polystrene and sell it without the convenience of it coming ready flocked and painted. Also without many of the kind of pieces wargamers need such as river, roads, spare hills, and soon.
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Post by: filbert
Kilkrazy wrote:
Ready made terrain has been around for decades. There are many forms including expanded poly squares and hexes, mats, hills, buildings and so on.
What GW have done is make a board and some building kits in hard polystrene and sell it without the convenience of it coming ready flocked and painted. Also without many of the kind of pieces wargamers need such as river, roads, spare hills, and soon.
While I don't disagree with you KK, I would suggest that a lot of these manufacturers are small, cottage industry affairs. You have to know they exist and have to know where to look to find them, plus have the gumption to dig around for it - I certainly wasn't aware of them when I started gaming and the internet wasn't the resource for information that it is now; consequently the only information I had to go was from my peers. All we knew was GW and they didn't do it.
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Post by: LuciusAR
The homogenisation has been very damaging to the hobby (if not the business) IMHO. Having standard painted armies in the cabinet has already helped stifle creativity and now standardised tables?
Sounds all very soulless to me. I like the idea of the plastic terrain kits and for the beginner, club or gamer without the time or skill to make their own terrain they are an invaluable option. Even if there are better and cheaper terrain kits made by other companies. But to crush scratch built terrain in store is a rotten move. Scratch built terrain often sparks a gamers hobby imagination, in much the same way as a good conversion does. Killing this helps kill the hobby.
I remember when going to a unfamiliar GW was an exciting experience as you could see all sorts of weird and wonderful paint schemes, conversions and tables. Seeing identikit stores sounds like a depressing prospect and actually is far less likely to make me open my wallet as I simply wont be inspired to become involved.
I'm far more likely to be spending my cash of the new edition of WAB than Fantasy V 8 anyway.
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Post by: filbert
LuciusAR wrote:
Sounds all very soulless to me. I like the idea of the plastic terrain kits and for the beginner, club or gamer without the time or skill to make their own terrain they are an invaluable option. Even if there are better and cheaper terrain kits made by other companies. But to crush scratch built terrain in store is a rotten move. Scratch built terrain often sparks a gamers hobby imagination, in much the same way as a good conversion does. Killing this helps kill the hobby.
Oh yes, I totally agree. My point being that neither option should be derided and neither option is mutually exclusive; the hobbyists need not pour scorn on those of us that choose to use pre made terrain, likewise GW have gone too far in the opposite direction to the detriment of creativity. The two facets need to live comfortably side by side. I can appreciate a well crafted board as much as the next man - I just realise (and realised pretty damn quickly into my gaming career) that I would never have the skill or talent required to make it myself.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The two options are not mutually exclusive. GW are offering an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby. There is certainly a place for that, and I grasp the point that no-one else has a major high-street presence.
The issue for us veterans who want to see the youngsters being allowed to enjoy wargaming as much as possible, is simply that if GW present the GW way as the only way, it diminishes the hobby as a whole.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
GW offered an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby without the RoB. The RoB adds nothing to the line by a lack of creativity.
The rest of the GW stuff is ace ('cept those horrible vacu-form things we got when Planetstrike game out) and is easy to use, and saves you having to saw foam and cut into expanded polystyrene and so on.
The RoB is the opposite of that - hugely overpriced (not 100% GW's fault there), extremely limited, and not at all useful by itself.
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Post by: Cypher871
Kilkrazy wrote:The two options are not mutually exclusive. GW are offering an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby. There is certainly a place for that, and I grasp the point that no-one else has a major high-street presence.
The issue for us veterans who want to see the youngsters being allowed to enjoy wargaming as much as possible, is simply that if GW present the GW way as the only way, it diminishes the hobby as a whole.
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. The problem is GW's presence is not contested in the high street so they effectively have a monopoly on an easily accessible and very tempting entry into our hobby. Even my wife, who has no interest in the hobby at all has expressed her admiration of some of the great scratch-built terrain and display models. If they can tempt you into the shop and get you interested that's over half the battle won!
You have to remember, GW started up as a small back-room company in 1975 and founded Citadel in 1979, so they have had a long time to perfect their art. It's not their fault they have no real competition, and what they do have doesn't advertise in the same high profile fashion as GW so...unless your a grizzled old veteran in the know, GW would seem to be the way to go. Unless other companies can get their products out there in the same high profile fashion, GW will always have their monopoly.
filbert wrote:While I don't disagree with you KK, I would suggest that a lot of these manufacturers are small, cottage industry affairs. You have to know they exist and have to know where to look to find them, plus have the gumption to dig around for it - I certainly wasn't aware of them when I started gaming and the internet wasn't the resource for information that it is now; consequently the only information I had to go was from my peers. All we knew was GW and they didn't do it.
Filbert, back in the days before t'internet I used to use a company called Gallia UK who produced a wide variety of modular 2'x2' terrain tiles and buildings (the same stuff I still have, though it's looking a bit worn nowadays) and that was through looking in wargaming mags and old White Dwarfs. The internet is a huge wealth of info so finding good quality ready-made terrain nowadays should be a lot easier.
Just as a little link for you I all, I found a German company last night called 'Ziterdes' that produce 2'x2' modular terrain, fully flocked and textured and ready to use for 26 Euro's...about £22 per board or they do 6 tile deal sets for about £103. Yeah, it still isn't cheap but they have a much wider choice, you could easily buy 4 to start and add extra's as you can afford to. They also have UK distributors! I am seriously considering getting some of their sets myself to replace mine.
I would much rather spend my money on something like that than the ROB system which you then have to texture and paint yourself. But again, it highlights my original point that unless companies advertise well (and here you cannot fault GW) they won't compete well. You can have the greatest product on the planet...but if people don't know about it how are you gonna sell it!!!
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Post by: filbert
H.B.M.C. wrote:GW offered an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby without the RoB. The RoB adds nothing to the line by a lack of creativity.
The rest of the GW stuff is ace ('cept those horrible vacu-form things we got when Planetstrike game out) and is easy to use, and saves you having to saw foam and cut into expanded polystyrene and so on.
The RoB is the opposite of that - hugely overpriced (not 100% GW's fault there), extremely limited, and not at all useful by itself.
That, of course, is entirely your opinion, H.B.M.C. Personally speaking, I love my ROB board and I think it is the best purchase I have made from GW in years. I agree that it is a move towards clamping down on creativity and trying to make it look as if GW is the be all and end all of the hobby, but then again, GW have been trying to do that for years. I like my ROB board because it is infinitely better than anything I could make on my own - and I care not a jot that it is modular. As always, one man's meat is another's poisoin and with a hobby as diverse as ours, everyone has a different way of doing things; that is to be lauded and I certainly don't agree with GW's attempts to stifle that and homogenise everything. However, I think we as a community should make more of an effort to not be partisan on these issues. The hobbyists among us need to stop sneering at those who choose to buy boards and terrain - likewise, the people who buy pre made terrain need to realise that home made stuff can be as good, if not better and that GW is not the final word in our hobby. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cypher871 wrote: filbert wrote:While I don't disagree with you KK, I would suggest that a lot of these manufacturers are small, cottage industry affairs. You have to know they exist and have to know where to look to find them, plus have the gumption to dig around for it - I certainly wasn't aware of them when I started gaming and the internet wasn't the resource for information that it is now; consequently the only information I had to go was from my peers. All we knew was GW and they didn't do it.
Filbert, back in the days before t'internet I used to use a company called Gallia UK who produced a wide variety of modular 2'x2' terrain tiles and buildings (the same stuff I still have, though it's looking a bit worn nowadays) and that was through looking in wargaming mags and old White Dwarfs. The internet is a huge wealth of info so finding good quality ready-made terrain nowadays should be a lot easier. Just as a little link for you I all, I found a German company last night called 'Ziterdes' that produce 2'x2' modular terrain, fully flocked and textured and ready to use for 26 Euro's...about £22 per board or they do 6 tile deal sets for about £103. Yeah, it still isn't cheap but they have a much wider choice, you could easily buy 4 to start and add extra's as you can afford to. They also have UK distributors! I am seriously considering getting some of their sets myself to replace mine. I would much rather spend my money on something like that than the ROB system which you then have to texture and paint yourself. But again, it highlights my original point that unless companies advertise well (and here you cannot fault GW) they won't compete well. You can have the greatest product on the planet...but if people don't know about it how are you gonna sell it!!!
Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.
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Post by: Cypher871
filbert wrote:
Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.
I didn't realise you were so young...I apologise for unfairly ageing you in my mind That of course changes things..I was 25 in 1992 so I had the benefit of having been around when White Dwarf was more like a comic than a mag and was full of D&D and old computer stuff as well as lots of ads for (gasp, shock, horror) other companies products...ahh , how things change.
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Post by: filbert
Cypher871 wrote:filbert wrote:
Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.
I didn't realise you were so young...I apologise for unfairly ageing you in my mind That of course changes things..I was 25 in 1992 so I had the benefit of having been around when White Dwarf was more like a comic than a mag and was full of D&D and old computer stuff as well as lots of ads for (gasp, shock, horror) other companies products...ahh , how things change.
Old enough to know better
And yes, I have seen some of the first WD's and they were a mine of info about all things wargaming, not just GW. However, once GW became a bit more self aware, they quickly cut out anything non- GW related meaning for new people getting into the hobby, GW was all that you saw.
10158
Post by: Cypher871
filbert wrote:Cypher871 wrote:filbert wrote:
Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.
I didn't realise you were so young...I apologise for unfairly ageing you in my mind That of course changes things..I was 25 in 1992 so I had the benefit of having been around when White Dwarf was more like a comic than a mag and was full of D&D and old computer stuff as well as lots of ads for (gasp, shock, horror) other companies products...ahh , how things change.
Old enough to know better
And yes, I have seen some of the first WD's and they were a mine of info about all things wargaming, not just GW. However, once GW became a bit more self aware, they quickly cut out anything non- GW related meaning for new people getting into the hobby, GW was all that you saw.
The problem now of course, is as I said, GW's monopoly. It would be horrendously difficult for a new miniature company to muscle in now. It would take unthinkable amounts of Capital and need to be a product as polished, and even then, it would be a gamble. To be fair there are other systems and model ranges out there, but not nearly pushed as hard, and that is what is needed.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Hey Filbert
Sheesh what a cop out!
your modelling skills won't improve if you don't get your hands covered in PVA and spit mate
Again
this is not about putting people down, and I have hopefully implied that there will be people who feel unable for whatever reason, to build their own tables.
As KK said, the two are not mutually exclusive.
It is disappointing that GW is no longer presenting the scratchbuilding options that are available as they used to do.
It is importanat because of the influence GW has over newcomers to the hobby as a whole.
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Post by: Samwise158
GW stores are lousy places to play games anyway and could never hold a candle to the FLGS. While GW locations generally have (had) very nice terrain they also have overbearing staff, officious rules about gaming in the store, and a dearth of gaming space. Bottom line, now all GW locations will have a very similar assortment of terrain. So what? The ROB board is a terrible product, but they also have some extremely nice terrain products as well. GW stores always felt more like showrooms than gamestores anyway because they obviously are not trying to create a nice environment for people to hang out and play games. In the future they will probably only let hired GW models use the tables to improve the image of the players.
GW makes nice terrain, but nothing beats a flat 6' x 4' MDF board as the base for a miniatures game.
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Post by: Lorne
Another issue with helping the younger generations on realizing what else is available in the hobby as a whole is us "older" players. When was the last time you went in a GW to play? I personally avoid the place now as it is a tween fest. But this is what GW is trying to do.
How are these younger players going to know what is available and easier/cheaper ways of doing things when the only enviroment they have is GW?
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Post by: NecronLord3
I really think GW should be running a raffle for Brick and Mortar Game Stores to 'win' these tables. Perhaps if you order X amount of product you earn Y amount of tickets to win the tables. That way these tables can be enjoyed by more than the friendly gaming group who happens to have a friend that took a table home(if any of those guys even have room to store or maintain the table). And it will help to move the games out of the GW stores(this is apparently what they want) and transition the stores into beginners only venues(also something the new GW business plan is encouraging).
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Post by: Kanluwen
They usually do that anyways? My old FLGS got first shots at some Games Day Baltimore tables, but didn't have the room to store them.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Lorne wrote:Another issue with helping the younger generations on realizing what else is available in the hobby as a whole is us "older" players. When was the last time you went in a GW to play? I personally avoid the place now as it is a tween fest. But this is what GW is trying to do.
How are these younger players going to know what is available and easier/cheaper ways of doing things when the only enviroment they have is GW?
That's the way GW want it. GW models and ice, GW table, GW buildings, GW flock, the lot. They don't want customers looking elsewhere for products and certainly don't want them feeling like they can use other manufacturer's stuff. But in reality, one metal model is very much like another.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Exactly.
Also, GW's basic marketing plan is that every year a new cohort of 12-year olds arrives so it doesn't matter if you lose most of the older ones.
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Post by: smiling Assassin
This is horrible news. Those GW boards were somtimes (I repeat, sometimes) actually quite fantastic because they - as much as anything - showed you that the people working there gave a damn about making fine scenery to showcase what their own imagination can do. When I was younger I could just go and stare at their boards, some of the local ones were really really nice.
Brilliant. Bye, GW.
sA
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Post by: metallifan
TBH, the RoB boards are still better than what's running at my FLGS. Fold out tables with paper battle-mats taped on them.
One of the mats has become so shrivelled and stained because this one porker keeps spilling his coke on it -every- time he's playing a game on it that they've had to cover it in plastic wrap and tape
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Post by: Miguelsan
I´ll miss the gorgeous terrain some GWs had,talk about eye candy, so with this change if GWs wants me to buy their terrain they better put out some cool looking xenos terrain as I´m tired of imperial something chapel, imperial something factory... I already have a room full with that in Spain that I can´t bring to Japan.
On the other hand recently I found some cool papercraft buildings in PDF that if I can make modular will be my main terrain so She Who Must Be Obeyed wont complain that my stuff take too much space.
M.
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