Did you try bringing them in with venomthropes? Make those 6 wounds become 8+effective. What exactly killed them so hard? How about using them more defensively, unlike drop-pods. I understand I'm not totally experienced with extremely optimized armies but.. all three?!

Razerous wrote:Did you try bringing them in with venomthropes? Make those 6 wounds become 8+effective. What exactly killed them so hard? How about using them more defensively, unlike drop-pods. I understand I'm not totally experienced with extremely optimized armies but.. all three?!

i didn't mean that all three of them arrived in one turn, and then were all killed... I'm not that hyperbolic. haha

What I meant was, the first time I played with them, I set one down defensively, but still close enough to charge what I needed killed on the following turn, and i was surprised at what killed it. that surprise continued when I watched arriving trygons die faster than I anticipated in future turns.

The problem with deep striking three trygons is that they never show up on the same turn.

I am giving venomthropes a try tonight, but in an entirely different context. i want to see how the theory hammer of their survivability differs from the actuality. People have such limited amount of 48" range weaponry, that every turn they try and kill him off from long range is basically a free pass for other MCs. the drop pod versions with alpha warriors also intrigue me. It is nice to test peoples ability to kill them, especially when there are other vital things to kill.

what killed trygons so hard in two games were exorcists, and in one game long fangs. The long fangs were screened by a unit of fenrisian wolves joined by a wolf guard battle leader, so i got to eat two rounds for them. The exorcists were screened by guardsmen, so same story.

I don't think trygons are underpowered, nor unusable, all i was saying in my previous post was that missile launchers are good at killing them, thats not refutable.

What trygons can't do is be a substitute for a shooting phase. I've tried it, you need zoanthropes, hive guard or tyrranofexes in some combination. Or trygon gets taken down. if it had a 12" charge? then maybe we see the all choppy army, but it has to challenge all those special weapons if it wants to declare a charge in the following turn, and it dies a lot to that kind of firepower.

I really want to see how a Alpha Warrior accompanying a squad of venomthropes does.


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edit:
You can easily give Trigons cover saves with Drop Pods or Drop Pods w/ Warriors. Maybe you should try that?

I'm having a test game today...not sure against who yet though. Will be running:
Tervigon (with catalyst)
Deathleaper
10 gaunts
12 hormagaunts in pods
12 hormagaunts in pods
trygon alpha (I need the synapse)
mawloc

It's gonna be a 1k test game and running the numbers I think it's gonna do quite well. Whatever deadly firebase the opponet has the mawloc should hit it hard if it's infantry or merely distract it if it's a tank. Take the pressure off my trygon for a turn or 2 allowing it to get where it needs to be.

I agree with shep about the units which should focus on antitank upgrades. If it's not that good in the first place, why upgrade to make it marginally better? Focus on the anti infantry side and you should simply overwhelm your opponents.

1 unit I feel that deserves a mention are the Ymgarl stealers. I feel that in larger games they have the potential to be deadly. They force your opponent out of cover meaning you can push them into the open for your swarm to hit them at regular initiative. I know that they take up an elite slot which is invaluable in the new codex (zoantropes, hive guard and deathleaper), but I'm thinking cut out the hive guard to make a shock list. Of course you probably need a tyrant in this setup giving plus 1 to reserves to co-ordinate well, but if the majority of your cheap troops are in pods I think it can be quite deadly.

And if you run tyrannofexes you don't even lose that much antitank, though transports can be slightly more troublesome...too many of the damned things.

My store actually got their shipment of 'dexes today!

Congrats! Mine arrived thursday and I spent 2 evenings putting together my new models. It feels good!

I have my codex in hand now so no more exercises in rumorhammer for me. I'm quite excited to start playtesting now.

Shep I like the two new lists you have presented today as they fit in with my vision for the new bugz. I think super gaunts in deep rank are going to rock. Your opponent can't ignore them so it will help to free up other heavy hitters.

Tyrants I have heard a lot of meh feedback... From what I've heard they tend to be glass hammers. I'm just going on hearsay at this point though so take what I say with a grain of salt. Of course.

Super gaunts (syctal) have the following:

•Fleet
•Move through Cover
•Furious Charge
•Reroll 1s to hit
•Can be juiced with Feel No Pain

They start getting kind of pricey with all these benefits but you can swarm with them and they hit really really hard. I think they can deal with a lot of stuff including the new Space Wolves.

G



G

Had my first game tonight against mech IG (no air cav though). This is what I used at 1750

HQ

Tervigon Catalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands

Elites

Zolanthropes (3) Spore pod
Zolanthropes (3) Spore pod
Deahtleaper

Troops

Tervigon Calalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands
Termagaunts (13)

Heavy

Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod
Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod
Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon


HQ

CCS Plasma w/ Master of the Fleet

Troops

PCS Flamers Chimera
2x infantry auto cannon, plasma
Vets Plasma, Chimera
Vets Melta Chimera
Vets Melta Chimera

Fast

Bane Wolf

Heavy

Demolisher
Manticore
2x LRBT


It was capture & control with pitched battle. He went first. It felt like such a tiny army to start with so much in reserve. I gave my units as much cover as I could. Even so I nearly lost one of my Tervigons on the first turn (it took 4 wounds). Still the Tervigons were very solid. However if he had one of the 3x lascannon skimmers we both agreed that at least one would have died. That would have been very bad as it was baby sitting gaunts on my objective. He ended up taking another 10ish wounds but saved them all either through his armor save, cover or FNP. In this game the adrenal glands definitely paid off and Toxin was useless.

On turn two I was fortunate to get the Death Leaper on the table. Still my units came in piece meal and it didn’t hurt as much as I thought it would. I did loose the first carnifex and zolanthrope squad by the end of the battle but they drew enough fire that my opponent wasn’t able to advance towards my side of the table comfortably. They also drew his forces away from his objective allowing for me to drop the remaining squad of zolanthropes and second carni near his objective. He also did a good job of not leaving any easy targets or places to deep strike.

I liked the carnifexes and I found the bioplasma useful. Both times when they came in they stunned or shook a chimera. The first didn’t survive past his first turn. It took all of his fire to do those four wounds so it is worth noting in this case that a Mawloc or Trygon would have survived with 2 wounds. I’ll have to keep an eye on how often having two extra wounds would make a difference.

The first zolanthrope squad did minor damage to a chimera which was rather unlucky (2 pens then nothing useful on the damage chart). The second squad of zolanthropes trashed one of the chimeras zooming to my objectve and on the next turn immobilized a second one.

The T-fex was OK. Twice it whiffed. It stunned a chimera and the Demolisher. It helped, but not 265 points worth. I need some more games before I’m sold on this one.

The Death Leaper’s +1 to reserves helped a bit. It immobilized the Demolisher, it assaulted a vet squad and I rolled super pathetically on the charge and failed to do anything. It tied them up for another turn at least. I’m left with the feeling I’d rather have a Tyrant if I really want that +1 to reserve rolls.

The gaunts didn’t do much, not that I expected great things from them. I got some side shots on chimeras but nothing came out of it. They did assault some vets later on and tied them up. They did their job of soaking up fire, dying, and holding my objective. Not being str4 was really annoying though with so many vehicles around.

I don’t want to draw too many conclusions after one game. I am tempted to ax the Tyrannofex and Death Leaper to add in a tyrant and three hive guard though.

Edit - this is what I think I'll try next

HQ
Tyrant - Hive Commander, Wings

Elites
3 Zolanthropes, Spore Pod
3 Zolanthropes, Spore Pod
3 Hive Guard

Troops
Tervigon Calalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands
Tervigon Calalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands
Termagaunts (13)

Heavy
Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod
Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod

I think the primary function of the Death Leaper is to stop enemy Psychic Hoods from blocking your Zoanthropes and prevent Null Zones, Jaws of the World Wolf, etc. You may want to test it in a game against enemy psykers before making your final verdict on that one.

CKO wrote:What exatcly do you accomplish in the tyranid shooting phase?

Your not going to put a serious dent against mech list so I think it is pointless. Assault missle launchers(hive guard) and lascannons with a -1(heavy venom cannons) which only come from elite choices or expensive mcs means that you will not be able to do enough damage. The only shooting weapon you should even consider is the zoanthrope as its just to good to pass up.

Mahu wrote:Thank you Shep. You provide a great insight, I think mine gets clouded by my own personal plans.

I agree on the Heavy Venom cannon, and I think I fell into "internet logic" too quickly on that one. The Stranglehorn doesn't really impress me either though. I think I will run your Hive Tyrant load out in my game this week and see what happens.

I came to that conclusion a while back, eventhough I think tyranid shooting may have a different goal then other armies. I believe our shooting is design to stop people from shooting at us with the exception of the zoanthropes. With that in mind, I understand the tyranids shooting phase alot better, I would like for you and shep to consider testing hive guard in spores.

Unless people are just wanting to diversify their existing force with some fancy new units the same old models from the old codex will still win just as well.

HQ: A bare bones tyrant or 2, heavy venom cannon no body guard.

Elites: Zoanthropes are the best choice here, Deathleaper is nice but not nessissary, he costs a lot of points and isn't a game changer by any means.

Troops: I bring 60 bare bones Genestealers if I can, no upgrades needed. I miss the old death spitter warriors but 8 or so with syth/rending simply running forward works too.

Heavy, Carnifex/ Carnifex/ Carnifex...... Bring the adrenal glands and bio plasma on twin syth Carny's and just run them forward. they are not to pricey at 190 and eat land raiders for breakfast. The plasma cannon shots are a nice bonus as well.

Thats about it..... always close asap and try to hit all at once , mindless, fairly thoughtless fun.

Yes the Carnifex went up a tad in points but I found the decrease in the warriors and Genestealers more than makes up for it, enough to add more Zoe's

The other bells and whistles look nice and where designed to bring in new moneys but its the same bare bones eat them alive strategy that will always prevail for Tyranids.

The trygon/Mawlocks look cool but busting up in your enemies face before the rest of your army is in charge range is a terrible idea, the bigger they are the harder they fall, especially with no support. I do see a lot of potential with drop spores, I bet other competitive lists will stem from the use of those but it will still be the same everything hitting at the same time tactics that will win games.

Based on rules and talk, I had little interest in running the Swarmlord. After reading the codex fluff and how he pretty much WTFPWNED Calgar and his Ultramarines, I'm seriously considering trying to work him into my list. All rules aside, I think him and Deathleaper are my two favorite critters based on story and background. Who's yours?

Aduro wrote:Based on rules and talk, I had little interest in running the Swarmlord. After reading the codex fluff and how he pretty much WTFPWNED Calgar and his Ultramarines, I'm seriously considering trying to work him into my list. All rules aside, I think him and Deathleaper are my two favorite critters based on story and background. Who's yours?

QFT!!! My main army is Ultras, so I definately want Swarmlord in my list. The fluff was just awesome! I am not sure how competitive he will be though.

Gornall wrote:

Aduro wrote:Based on rules and talk, I had little interest in running the Swarmlord. After reading the codex fluff and how he pretty much WTFPWNED Calgar and his Ultramarines, I'm seriously considering trying to work him into my list. All rules aside, I think him and Deathleaper are my two favorite critters based on story and background. Who's yours?

QFT!!! My main army is Ultras, so I definately want Swarmlord in my list. The fluff was just awesome! I am not sure how competitive he will be though.

Competitive is always second hand to your love of the game

I think the major problem with the Venomthrope is that it occupies an Elite slot. If it had been an HQ choice (similar to big mek+KFF) I think it would have been an auto include. Elites are where the majority of our tank busting ability is coming from. Zoanthropes+Deathleaper is IMO the best use of the elite slots.

On the issue of dropping empty spore pods. The entries that talk about the spore pod do not make it clear that units that purchase pods as an upgrade must deploy in them. It even goes as far as saying that they are always treated as a separate non-scoring unit. This leads me to the conclusion that you can indeed drop them empty.

Crushing claws are interesting now. As Shep has discovered they seem like a good upgrade for Tervigons. With the change to Scything Talons it's my opinion that if you can take 2 sets they are very good. However when you can only take a single set then it's time to start looking for another CC biomorph. Furthermore if Boneswords are available they should always be your first choice.

Since the Tervigon can only take 1 set of scything talons, and no boneswords I think crushing claws are optimal here. At worst you'll add only 1 extra attack, however you have the potential to double the attacks this thing puts out.

With the loss of Assault Grenades pinning weapons will hold a very important support role when assaulting into cover. Barbed Strangler, Stranglethorn cannon, and strangleweb are our only pinning weapons. A Tyrant carrying a stranglethorn could prove to be very useful.

Overall my biggest regret for the Codex is Raveners, and Lictors not being able to assault the turn they Deep Strike. At the very least Raveners should haven been assault the turn they arrive through a Trygon Tunnel. This is especially painful as the Blood Angel Codex is going to have at least 1 uber DS assault unit.

I like my swarms and fear for the safety of my little buggers, so one of my first investments is a pair of Venomthropes, even before the Trygons that I want to make Tervigons out of.

I think the first list I'm going to run, based simply on what I currently have, will me a Midzilla + Horde list, sporting an Alpha to lead it, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and Deathleaper for my Elites, two each of Gaunts, Hormagaunts and Warriors for my Troops, a brood of Gargoyles for Fast, and a lone T-Fex hoping no one notices him in the back of the swarm. Not run the points yet to see what that comes out to.


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Oh, and I might buy Raveners, but it will be soley to use them as the base for Winged Warriors and the Parasite.

CKO wrote:I came to that conclusion a while back, eventhough I think tyranid shooting may have a different goal then other armies. I believe our shooting is design to stop people from shooting at us with the exception of the zoanthropes. With that in mind, I understand the tyranids shooting phase alot better, I would like for you and shep to consider testing hive guard in spores.

Sadly, Hive Guard can't go in Mycetic Spores.

Aduro wrote:I like my swarms and fear for the safety of my little buggers, so one of my first investments is a pair of Venomthropes, even before the Trygons that I want to make Tervigons out of.

I think the first list I'm going to run, based simply on what I currently have, will me a Midzilla + Horde list, sporting an Alpha to lead it, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and Deathleaper for my Elites, two each of Gaunts, Hormagaunts and Warriors for my Troops, a brood of Gargoyles for Fast, and a lone T-Fex hoping no one notices him in the back of the swarm. Not run the points yet to see what that comes out to.

Almost 2000 Points. Depends how you want to arm the Warriors.

Nid Swarm - Total 1965
125 Alpha with Deathspitter, Paired Swords, Toxic, Adrenal, Regen
165 3 Venomthropes
180 3 Zoanthropes
140 Deathleaper
150 30 Termagants
150 30 Termagants
160 20 Toxic Hormagaunts
160 20 Toxic Hormagaunts
175 5 Deathspitter Warriors
175 5 Deathspitter Warriors
120 20 Gargoyles
265 T-Fex

After some good reading here in this thread and others I have thrown together this army list:

1 Hive Tyrant with wings and double talons, +1 to reserves
1 Alphawarrior double talons
1 liktor/deathleaper
3 Zoanthropes
9 Warriors scything talons/ rending claws
13 genestealer with broodlord
12 genestealer with scything talons
20 hormagants
20 hormagants
2x3 dropping spore mines
1 Carnifex with frags

Is around 1750 and is based on already purchased models.

Problem I see there is the lack of montrous creature targets. The two I have will surely be blown away pretty quick by an army with moderate firepower.
Another problem is the lack of anti-tank, but that's pretty a given considering the melee theme of the army.
I think that it's essential to have the +1 to reserve base. Otherwise you have to count on the liktors to come in turn 2 which is nowhere near save.

I will report how the games went!

Greets
Schepp himself

Go for the normal warriors, they have great shooting. Use the points to either get a second broodlord or upgrade to the Y.stealers. they have the ability to assault the turn they come in. Also, try out the parasite, I found him quite useful.

I think you'll have hard time handling vehicles.

Fetterkey wrote:I think the primary function of the Death Leaper is to stop enemy Psychic Hoods from blocking your Zoanthropes and prevent Null Zones, Jaws of the World Wolf, etc. You may want to test it in a game against enemy psykers before making your final verdict on that one.

Yeah I have two regular opponents that have a psychic hood or Rune Priest. Jaws will not be nice against Tervigons.

I have looked through the codex this morning. I will probably go with a hard hitting elite army that can use reserves.

G

Janthkin wrote:

CKO wrote:I came to that conclusion a while back, eventhough I think tyranid shooting may have a different goal then other armies. I believe our shooting is design to stop people from shooting at us with the exception of the zoanthropes. With that in mind, I understand the tyranids shooting phase alot better, I would like for you and shep to consider testing hive guard in spores.

Sadly, Hive Guard can't go in Mycetic Spores.

This is what happens when you order from GW and your local store is sold out of codexes.

They can pop out behind Trygons.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:They can pop out behind Trygons.

G

If you get lucky enough to have the Trygon come in and the Hive Guard NOT. That's lamentably uncommon. The Trygon's tunnel has been reduced to a gimmick (as opposed to the FW version, where you could ensure something followed him, and could assault when it got there).

I think the Trygon tunnel deployment has potential, especially since Mystics don't work against units following the Trygon.

What I am seeing is designing your list to have a multitude of deployment options. It's quite possible and fits in with the background. So far no one has come up with a cookie cutter meta list but that's not a bad thing at all. I firmly believe the new bugs weren't intended to played with lots of spammed units but don't let that stop you from trying to be the first to make it a big go.

G

Trygon tunnel seems to be more of an opportunity option than something to base your pre-game strategies on

Very much agreed with that point. I also think that's no bad thing. It gives an extra element of board control- makes a table edge where before there wasn't one.

Perhaps something of a noob question, but how often do you propose you could conceivably have this opportunity? I thought you had to declare whether something was Deep Striking/Outflanking, which means that only something you planned to come in from your edge would be able to take advantage of the tunnel. What in the list would you ever start in reserve that you would not Deep Strike/Outflank? I could very well be missing something here, but I just cannot see how that could ever be a benefit.

So, what do you give Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs to in your army? Now that their benefits are not omnipresent stat buffs but instead grant Poisoned Attacks and Furious Charge?

Hormagaunts. Toxin Sacs benefit you vs everyone, and are pretty much a no brainer. Adrenals on the other hand only give you much benefit vs Eldar in Combat, as well as letting you glance Armor 10 on the charge. Debating still on if I want to keep Adrenals on mine or just go with 8 pt Toxigaunts.

Gargoyles. Same as Hormagaunts.

Termagaunts. I don't think I'm going to bother with either. They're not really a HtH beast unless supported by bigger critters like their dad, and he'll give them the benefits of his for free anyways.

Tervigons. Both, not really for himself, but to benefit all his kids around him.

Warriors and Raveners. With Str 4, it's starting to get questionable on which upgrades they want. If you give them Toxin Sacs, then they don't really need Str 5 on the charge from the Adrenals, however the extra Int is nice to let you strike before Marines. I could see these benefiting from both, but it's making a pricey fig even more expensive

Alpha Warrior. Adrenals and no Toxin Sacs. At Str 5, the Toxin Sacs are going to start doing more harm than good against most of your targets. The extra Str and Int on the charge will make him a character killer if you can position him right, and with Boneswords he'll WTFPWN everything else.

T-Fex. He really gets no benefit from either the vast majority of the time. Save the points for elsewhere.

Tyrant. No Toxin, his Str is high enough it will only hinder him. Adrenal's will let him strike before characters on the charge, but most won't be able to hurt him much anyways unless they're swinging Fists. I'm going to pass on both.

Mahu, I like the most recent list you posted.

Shep, you really got me thinking about the Stranglethorn. Like it the more I think about it, and I'm gonna give it a try.

Here's the army I'm gonna field in my next game. I played something similar in my last game vs. mech IG and I've made some tweaks. I'm prepping for a tourney at the end of January, so there's still a bit of "what do I have/can I reasonably get done" to this list.

Tyrant - Talons, Stranglethorn, Adrenal glands 200
2 Tyrant Guards 120
3 Hive Guards 150
3 Hive Guards 150
2 Zoeys 120
Tervigon - Toxin, Catalyst 200
10 Termagants 50
9 Genestealers 153
20 Hormagaunts - Toxin sacs 160
20 Hormagaunts - Toxin sacs 160
5 Warriors - Adrenal glands, Deathspitters 200
16 Gargoyles 96
2 Biovores 90

1849 pts

Basic design of the list is to move, shoot, bust transports and then punish what piles out. The Biovores synerge with the Hive Guards, as does the Stranglethorn cannon to a lesser degree. The Hormagaunts let me handle basically anything with a T value. I went with 5 Warriors instead of 4 because I've found at 4 their offensive output drops precipitously with casualities. (FWIW, I think a Warrior death star might be really interesting paired with Venomthropes, but that's another playtest.)

The Gargoyles give me some speed and flexibility, but mostly they're there to serve as a moving cover that shouldn't bog down the rest of the stuff behind it. I'd love to put Old Adversary on the Tyrant, but right now the plan is keeping him cheap, especially given the cost of the ablative wounds (Tyrant Guards).

Again, it's certainly not without its weaknesses (LR spam, I'm looking at you), but I think it's a more old-school approach that shouldn't embarrass me. I'll have my pods and a fuller arsenal built for my *February* tournament, muah-ha-ha.

One interesting variant popped up today when I watched a game. Local player ran the following:

1 Tervigon (HQ)
3x 23 Termagaunts
3x Tervigon (Troops)
1 Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon
1 Trygon Prime
9 Winged Warriors with Scything Talons and Deathspitters

He spawned over 100 additional gaunts and literally swamped the board with bodies. He really does have all the termagaunt models to support this! Based on his testing today, he is replacing the Trygon with an Old Adversary Tyrant to make the little guys even more lethal and replacing the Tyrannofex with 2 Zoeys and 3 Biovores. By the time he finished spawning on turn 3, the Necrons had easily killed over 60 gaunts and he still had enough models on the board to swamp the entire Necron line from flank to flank and tie them up in close combat. Necron player was running Deceiver, Destroyer Lord, at least 30 Warriors, 20 Immortals and 6 Wraiths. Bugs did barely any damage until turn 4, but once all those little guys were in range Necrons went down fast and hard. Still a little at a loss on how to stop this monstrosity.

PanzerLeader wrote:Still a little at a loss on how to stop this monstrosity.

Well, I imagine the first step would be "don't play Necrons."

If you want to stop it, kill the tervigons..

Run Monoliths. Sure, he's got 100 Gaunts on the table, but they're in ten units of ~10. Flux Arcs, which target all units in range, could do a real number on that. Not to mention Particle Whips. And if he takes out the T-Fex, he's got no way of killing them.

Elric of Grans wrote:Perhaps something of a noob question, but how often do you propose you could conceivably have this opportunity? I thought you had to declare whether something was Deep Striking/Outflanking, which means that only something you planned to come in from your edge would be able to take advantage of the tunnel. What in the list would you ever start in reserve that you would not Deep Strike/Outflank? I could very well be missing something here, but I just cannot see how that could ever be a benefit.

I think it will primarily be useful for full reserve armies.

One basic question for me is how will the new Nids be played at the competitive level?
Geared towards cc, shooty, or balanced?

Aduro wrote:So, what do you give Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs to in your army? Now that their benefits are not omnipresent stat buffs but instead grant Poisoned Attacks and Furious Charge?

General thought is Toxic Sacs on little Bugs and Adrenal Glands on Big Bugs.

* Hormaguants want Toxic Sacs so they can wound anything. Furious Charge is nice but I think it makes them too expensive. I want the extra bodies in the unit.
* Gargoyles already have Blinding Poison so I would run them naked or with both. The Initiative upgrade and Str 4 vs tanks is nice.
* I would want Toxic Sacs on Genestealers, but I think it may make them too expensive to use.
* Tervigon wants both and I will leave my Termagants naked.
* Trygons benefit from Adrendal Glands Str for hunting Tanks and Initiative to strike before MEQ.
* Hive Tyrants with Implant Attack benefit from Toxic Sacs to get more Instant Death Wounds. Glands help Tank hunting but I doubt I will have the points for the upgrade.
* Primes are more meta dependent. I prefer Toxic Sacs as there are a lot of T5+ opponents.

wuestenfux wrote:One basic question for me is how will the new Nids be played at the competitive level?
Geared towards cc, shooty, or balanced?

I do not think they will do Shooty well. Mostly it will be Melee or Balanced armies.

I know I'm not alone on this, but to me what jumps out ridiculously big are the Tervigons.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

The Venomthrope can hide behind the Tervigon and give everyone cover. The Fexes can pair up to screen the Tervigon. The whole thing can plod across the board and hold objectives. If you give it shooty Fexes, it can sit on your objective. If you give it CC Fexes, it can go take his objective.

You could throw in a Zoanthrope or two, and totally screen them until they're in range.

You can omit the Venomthrope if you want to keep them on your objective, and just find a place with good cover for it.

All in all, tho, the Troops Tervigon with Regen strikes me as being a ridiculously good deal, and in a Codex where costing is all over the place, you need to find the steals (Tervigon), in order to fund the overcosted crap that you still probably want (Fexes).

After some play testing at your lgs, here is a 2k list we all came up with.

First of all, we are very impressed with upgraded hormagants. We were not so impressed with mawloc.

We were impressed with the cheapness of the alpha warrior hq, but we couldn't think of a good way to fit him in yet.

Here is the list:

HQ
2 x Tervigon w/catalyst/toxin/adrenal

Troop
1 x Tervigon w/catalyst/toxin/adrenal
1 x 17 Termagaunts
1 x 30 Hormagants w/toxin/adrenal

Elite
2 x 3 Hive Guard
1 x Death Leaper

Heavy
2 x Tyrranofex w/rupture cannon/regen

I believe this is the list we are going to hammer out vs mech IG, mech SW, mech Marines, other Nids and Orks.

Elric of Grans wrote:Perhaps something of a noob question, but how often do you propose you could conceivably have this opportunity? I thought you had to declare whether something was Deep Striking/Outflanking, which means that only something you planned to come in from your edge would be able to take advantage of the tunnel. What in the list would you ever start in reserve that you would not Deep Strike/Outflank? I could very well be missing something here, but I just cannot see how that could ever be a benefit.

You do have to declare outflanking/deep striking. But I read the Trygon's rules as overriding that previous choice - "Any Tyranid infantry units (excluding those with wings) that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns...." When you Outflank, you are still arriving from Reserves.

The more interesting (to me) question: can a unit intended for deployment via Mycetic Spore change it's mind after the Trygon's tunnel become available? The answer should be no, given vehicle precedents, but GW has been known to do weird things.

Broken Loose wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:Still a little at a loss on how to stop this monstrosity.

Well, I imagine the first step would be "don't play Necrons."

Good thing I don't play Necrons. As I said, I watched the game. But thanks for that ever so useful advice.

WarmasterScott wrote:If you want to stop it, kill the tervigons..

I think this is easier said than done. Remember, the Tervigons can give each other FNP if you start targetting them aggressively and will get a FNP save against Krak Missiles in addition to the cover save they get from being behind the wall of gaunts. Maneuvering around them also becomes problematic because after about 2 turns of spawning he has enough gaunts to literally carpet the board from edge to edge. This is not as problematic in Dawn of War or Pitched Battle, but in spearhead when he only has to seal off the 4 foot length to trap it becomes a night mare scenario pretty quick.

Phryxis wrote:I know I'm not alone on this, but to me what jumps out ridiculously big are the Tervigons.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

The Venomthrope can hide behind the Tervigon and give everyone cover. The Fexes can pair up to screen the Tervigon. The whole thing can plod across the board and hold objectives. If you give it shooty Fexes, it can sit on your objective. If you give it CC Fexes, it can go take his objective.

You could throw in a Zoanthrope or two, and totally screen them until they're in range.

You can omit the Venomthrope if you want to keep them on your objective, and just find a place with good cover for it.

All in all, tho, the Troops Tervigon with Regen strikes me as being a ridiculously good deal, and in a Codex where costing is all over the place, you need to find the steals (Tervigon), in order to fund the overcosted crap that you still probably want (Fexes).

This sounds like a proper tactics and hard to take on for any opponent.

PanzerLeader wrote:I think this is easier said than done. Remember, the Tervigons can give each other FNP if you start targetting them aggressively and will get a FNP save against Krak Missiles in addition to the cover save they get from being behind the wall of gaunts. Maneuvering around them also becomes problematic because after about 2 turns of spawning he has enough gaunts to literally carpet the board from edge to edge. This is not as problematic in Dawn of War or Pitched Battle, but in spearhead when he only has to seal off the 4 foot length to trap it becomes a night mare scenario pretty quick.

No way Tervigons should be getting cover from Gaunts. And were they remembering the "runs out on any roll of doubles"? More often than not, a Tervigon will only get one spawning.

wuestenfux wrote:

Phryxis wrote:I know I'm not alone on this, but to me what jumps out ridiculously big are the Tervigons.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

The Venomthrope can hide behind the Tervigon and give everyone cover. The Fexes can pair up to screen the Tervigon. The whole thing can plod across the board and hold objectives. If you give it shooty Fexes, it can sit on your objective. If you give it CC Fexes, it can go take his objective.

You could throw in a Zoanthrope or two, and totally screen them until they're in range.

You can omit the Venomthrope if you want to keep them on your objective, and just find a place with good cover for it.

All in all, tho, the Troops Tervigon with Regen strikes me as being a ridiculously good deal, and in a Codex where costing is all over the place, you need to find the steals (Tervigon), in order to fund the overcosted crap that you still probably want (Fexes).

This sounds like a proper tactics and hard to take on for any opponent.

Jaws of the World Wolf. The trick is going to be in keeping rhino-mounted Rune Priests from closing within 24", or in making sure they will be covered by Shadow in the Warp.

Janthkin wrote:
No way Tervigons should be getting cover from Gaunts. And were they remembering the "runs out on any roll of doubles"? More often than not, a Tervigon will only get one spawning.

Unfortunately, the local stores interpretation is "shooting through a unit gives cover regardless of size." So here, the Gaunts are generally sufficient to give a Tervigon cover though I'm working on getting that changed. And he played the spawning rules correctly, but with four Tervigons on the board and only a ~42% chance of doubles per spawning, he seems to be averaging 6-7 additional broods per game at a minimum as normally only one or two blow out turn one.

The local store should read the rules for Monstrous Creatures getting cover then, because they need 50%+ of the model obscured, and if its borderline then its Cv5+.

What's the most cost effective troops choice for the new Nids? And in what # will you take them?

It depends on how the gaunts are modeled. If they are hunched over then no way are they going to provide 50 percent obscurement, but if they are modeled leaping up then it's quite feasible.

G

Janthkin wrote:You do have to declare outflanking/deep striking. But I read the Trygon's rules as overriding that previous choice - "Any Tyranid infantry units (excluding those with wings) that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns...." When you Outflank, you are still arriving from Reserves.

If it can be played like that... yes, I can definitely see how it could prove useful. Hmm... I may have to see how people here like that interpretation.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

How much does that cost again? It's about half of a 1500 point army and considering its speed and weaponry it doesn't strike me as particularly awe-inspiring.

As far as the Tervigon being a 'ridiculously good deal' goes, well, I guess it depends on what you're comparing it to. Afterall we're talking about a slow 200 point model that has one short range heavy bolter as weaponry. Sure it buffs units around it in many ways but fact remains that people who take more than two Tervigons in smaller battles (under 1.75K) run the risk of not having enough models in the army that can cause any actual damage to the enemy.

Don't get me wrong I like the Tervigon too, but calling it a ridiculously good deal might be a bit of a stretch.

Tervigons are a very strong support unit but don't pack much of an offensive punch. I think there's definitely a risk of taking too many and thus losing your focus on stuff that actually kills the enemy and wins the game.

Yes but I don't think you hit that critical mass beyond 4+. A list could quite easily fit 2-3 in without losing killyness.

Something just occurred to me (no, I don't have the Codex yet so someone needs to fact-check this for me): Do the units produced by a Tervigon count as units for the purposes of kill-points?

Of course.

They count as if you had purchased them from the Troops entry with no upgrades of any kind.

Utility in 2/3 missions is good, but being a positive liability in kill-point missions might slow people's ardour for them.

That's one of the nice things though, you don't HAVE to make the Gaunts. They won't be as big of an asset, but they'll still be buffing your Gaunts and giving things FNP. If you need some extra firepower or CC power, poop some out then.

I'm going to be testing the following list in the next few days.

Hive Tyrant
Old Adversary, 1xDevourers, LW+BS, 2+ Coversave

2x3 Hive Guard

2xTervigon w/Crushing Claws, Adrenal, Poison, Catalyst (the FnP one)

2x19 Termagaunts

2 Carnifex w/Crushing Claws, 1xDevourers

2xCarnifex w/Dual Scythes, Bio-Plasma, Spore Pods

Basically the idea being that the bulk of the force moves up like a giant nasty hammer and slowly roll toward the bad men while Hive Guard give cover and open up transports for everyone to eat. The Podding Carnies are there to threaten rear areas or eat units that are way off from center mass (i.e. the split deployment). Even a Tervigon becomes dangerous re-rolling hits w/crushing claws (average of 5 attacks w/around 4 hits).

I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'm considering dropping the carnies for either 2 trygons or 2 mawlocs that start on the board but I'm not really sure yet. I do so love my Carnies and I think they have a place in a list like this.

Based on my experience fighting the new Nids, which is limited, I admit, you're going to have a HUGE problem dealing with mobile opponents. Your Hive Guard won't last that long, even with Tervigon FNP, and they're the only real ranged anti tank in your list. Everything else is turtle slow and psychic hoods will be having a pretty easy time shutting your Tervigons/Hive Tyrant down.

I think that for new competitive Nids, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes are going to be a pick 2 out of 3 for any real list.

Aduro:

That's the thing, the Termagant and Hormagaunt units that the Tervigons will be synergizing with, if they aren't producing any on their own, seem to be ridiculously tiny under the assumption that the Tervigons will make up the difference.

Plus sourclams' point about Tervigons being shut down by anti-psychic wargear makes even their ability to synergize with Termagant units doubtful. Not every opponent will be Orks, Chaos, or Necrons.

There's new and thus very shiny and sparkly, but I think people are going to catch onto the lack of production model very quickly: they're a highly situational unit, but having more than one or two is going to handicap you in most situations.

How mobile are we talking sourclams? The reason I'm asking is that truly heavily mobile armies don't normally have the firepower on the move to knock out that many wounds. Eldar mobile armies just don't have the shots to take out the HG and Speeders for SM's aren't going to want to come play tag with all the devourers.

It's a list that will hurt in KP missions if they knock out the HG but in objective missions it's just plain nasty since I can sit on several objectives and be very, very hard to dislodge

@Nurglitch

The synergy isn't psychic. The gaunts get the big daddies special abilities no matter what. The only thing that can be shut down is FnP which while that will suck isn't a game loser.

Though I probably won't ever field more than 2 in a list.

Well, I'm predominantly a mech guard player. Yesterday I went against a Nid list that had 3 Hive Guard and 2 Tyrannofexes. By the end of turn 2 all the Hive Guard and one Fex were dead, and the other Fex had 2 wounds left and was hiding behind a building for much of the remainder of the game.

Shutting down his anti tank like that allowed me to simply run my chimera wall around the table, flaming, plasma-ing, and melta-ing at will, and although the little bugs could glance me, they were hugely vulnerable to hull heavy flamers against massed infantry.

I imagine that playing against your list would go similarly, except that you have even less anti tank, and to be effective your Fexes have to fall out of the sky within 12" of my Chims. If I can put 8 AP1-2 wounds on T6, they're just meat.

I think your list will crush a Battle Force army, but against someone who's meched up and playing competitively, it's just too slow to get where it needs to before your opponent has shot it to pieces or taken the initiative assaulting.

sourclams wrote:Yes but I don't think you hit that critical mass beyond 4+. A list could quite easily fit 2-3 in without losing killyness.

I would not take Tervigons in the HQ slot, so that allows for two to three, depending on your Troops selections.

If the Alpha Warrior could take wings, I think he'd be a much more desirable HQ option, but as is there's really no significant value that leaps out at me from the HQ choices available. I have no problem filling HQ choices with Tervigons.

Hive Tyrants cost a crap load of points, and Alpha Warriors are too slow to go with Hormagaunts.

It's not so much the other HQ options as it is the Tervigon, really. Non-scoring Tervigons don't seem like they're worth their points to me.

The main issue I see with Nids right now is the elite slot. You'll need 3 slots of Hive Guard to deal with armor I think....and that removes a lot of cool choices. I think the scariest list my Marines would face would be something like;

Tyrant Venom Cannon
Tyrant Guard

3x3 Hive Guard

Tervigon
10 x Terms
A lot of hormagants w/ poison

Trygons

Whatever other toys you can fit in.



Of course, the first thing I would shoot to death would be the Hive Guard...then I would drive around the table. Shooting 9 T6, 2 wound guys won't exactly be easy. Except for Guard....but to hell with that codex .

Hive Guard are nice, but I think people are a little obsessed with their anti-transport abilities. If you want anti-vehicle people then go for Venom Cannons on squads of Warriors, leaving your Elites more open to the useful options in it.

Or consider interdicting vehicles with Spore Mines, or Raveners, or Gargoyles or something. Heck, consider a brood or two of two Carnifexes with whatever the big Venom Cannons are called.

The real challenge of the new Tyranids seems to be cramming everything you want into a single army...

Nurglitch wrote:Hive Guard are nice, but I think people are a little obsessed with their anti-transport abilities. If you want anti-vehicle people then go for Venom Cannons on squads of Warriors, leaving your Elites more open to the useful options in it.

Or consider interdicting vehicles with Spore Mines, or Raveners, or Gargoyles or something. Heck, consider a brood or two of two Carnifexes with whatever the big Venom Cannons are called.

The real challenge of the new Tyranids seems to be cramming everything you want into a single army...

Err....

Warriors have Str. 6 VC that are -1 on the chart dude and only get 1 per brood. A fex with HVC is almost 200 points...and it's a blast that scatters.

AgeOfEgos wrote:The main issue I see with Nids right now is the elite slot. You'll need 3 slots of Hive Guard to deal with armor I think....and that removes a lot of cool choices.

I agree with you, mostly. The Elite slot definitely seems to be consumed with finding relatively cheap anti-tank, whether it's the Hive Guard or Zoeys. Other options, like Venomthropes and Ymgarl Stealers are nice-but-not-necessary, whereas ranged anti tank most definitely is.

And then there's Death Leaper, who's also Elite, and the only thing in the whole codex that can act as reliable anti-psyker outside of 12"...

I'm willing to guess that competitive list elite slots will look like this:

Death Leaper, 2x3 Hive Guard
Death Leaper, 3 Hive Guard, Zoanthropes
Death Leaper, 2x3 Zoanthropes

I think you can play around with combinations of Hive Tyrants and Harpies with HVC, and Tyrannofexes are solid, but they can't hope to stop a modern mech list without backup ranged AT, and for the Nids, that's all sunk into the Elites.

AgeofEgos:

Is it still an Assault 2 weapon? Because if so then you'll be better off glancing a vehicle with a brood of Warriors than penetrating it with a brood of Hive Guard. S6 is pretty good against Rhinos, and other AV10-12 vehicles, if you can get enough shots in.

That seems to be the thing about Tyranid shooting, particularly in regards to vehicles: it's about stalling and immobilising vehicles in order to pick them off at leisure (or when you get there!).

More importantly by relegating this task to Warriors, you leave your Elite slots open to something besides Hive Guard. That's not to say that a unit might not come in handy, but just that filling up your Elites with them really limits what your army can do. Where are your Venomthropes, your Zoanthropes, your Lictors, your Ymgarly Genestealers, and so on?

Far be it from me to stand in the way of the one or two cookie-cutter lists that get brainstormed in threads such as these, but wouldn't it be something better to maybe explore the Codex a little more before settling into the usual One True Spam-List mode yet again?

PanzerLeader wrote:Unfortunately, the local stores interpretation is "shooting through a unit gives cover regardless of size." So here, the Gaunts are generally sufficient to give a Tervigon cover though I'm working on getting that changed. And he played the spawning rules correctly, but with four Tervigons on the board and only a ~42% chance of doubles per spawning, he seems to be averaging 6-7 additional broods per game at a minimum as normally only one or two blow out turn one.

So your store makes up their own rules. Interesting.

I wonder what other broken stuff they have. It would make playing 40k there easily abusable.

Nurglitch wrote:Is it still an Assault 2 weapon? Because if so then you'll be better off glancing a vehicle with a brood of Warriors than penetrating it with a brood of Hive Guard. S6 is pretty good against Rhinos, and other AV10-12 vehicles, if you can get enough shots in.

I don't know by what metric a S6 weapon that rolls -1 on the vehicle damage table is "pretty good". They're BS3, meaning that a direct hit on a rhino-sized chassis will happen something like 40% of the time, they'll get a glance 1/6 of the time, and they'll roll sufficient to stun the vehicle 1/6 of the time. That's about 2% of the time to stun versus AV12 and 3% to stun/immobilize versus AV11 including all glancing and penetrating hits. Keeping the Warriors at 3 models with just toxin/adrenal glands and the venom cannon is going to run ~140 points, nearly the cost of 3x Hive Guard with 6 S8 shots at BS4. If you're going to rely on this in any capacity, I grieve for the bugs.

That seems to be the thing about Tyranid shooting, particularly in regards to vehicles: it's about stalling and immobilising vehicles in order to pick them off at leisure (or when you get there!).

It's more about getting people out of their transports so that you can eat their units when you get there. If your Hormagaunt wave is charging into a stunned rhino wall, you're just setting yourself up to get gunned down or flamed to death. It's even worse against IG or Eldar with predominantly AV12. You don't want to waste your Carnifex putting 3 penetrating hits on a Rhino.

Far be it from me to stand in the way of the one or two cookie-cutter lists that get brainstormed in threads such as these, but wouldn't it be something better to maybe explore the Codex a little more before settling into the usual One True Spam-List mode yet again?

Options for consistent ranged AT:

Hive Tyrant with HVC: 200+ points, BS3, S9, -1 on VDT
Harpy with HVC: 170+ points, BS3, S9, -1 on VDT
Carnifex with HVC: 185+ points, BS3, S9, -1 on VDT
Hive Guard: 50-150 points, BS4, 2 shots S8
Zoanthropes: 60-180 points, BS4, S10 AP1 Lance
Tyrannofex: 245+ points, BS3, 2 shots S10

I think it's pretty clear where the cheapest, most reliable AT is concentrated.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

Is it still an Assault 2 weapon? Because if so then you'll be better off glancing a vehicle with a brood of Warriors than penetrating it with a brood of Hive Guard. S6 is pretty good against Rhinos, and other AV10-12 vehicles, if you can get enough shots in.

That seems to be the thing about Tyranid shooting, particularly in regards to vehicles: it's about stalling and immobilising vehicles in order to pick them off at leisure (or when you get there!).

More importantly by relegating this task to Warriors, you leave your Elite slots open to something besides Hive Guard. That's not to say that a unit might not come in handy, but just that filling up your Elites with them really limits what your army can do. Where are your Venomthropes, your Zoanthropes, your Lictors, your Ymgarly Genestealers, and so on?

Far be it from me to stand in the way of the one or two cookie-cutter lists that get brainstormed in threads such as these, but wouldn't it be something better to maybe explore the Codex a little more before settling into the usual One True Spam-List mode yet again?

Sourclams already addressed quite effectively...but I'll just add that 140ish point S6 blast that is -1 on vehicle damage chart is terribad against vehicles dude. It actually stuns me someone would suggest that against Chimera/Rhino walls. And if you rely on HTH gants to blow up rhinos, you've already lost.

I'm not sure what the cookie cutter list comment meant.....are you mad that armies eventually morph into a few power builds...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The main issue I see with Nids right now is the elite slot. You'll need 3 slots of Hive Guard to deal with armor I think....and that removes a lot of cool choices.

I agree with you, mostly. The Elite slot definitely seems to be consumed with finding relatively cheap anti-tank, whether it's the Hive Guard or Zoeys. Other options, like Venomthropes and Ymgarl Stealers are nice-but-not-necessary, whereas ranged anti tank most definitely is.

And then there's Death Leaper, who's also Elite, and the only thing in the whole codex that can act as reliable anti-psyker outside of 12"...

I'm willing to guess that competitive list elite slots will look like this:

Death Leaper, 2x3 Hive Guard
Death Leaper, 3 Hive Guard, Zoanthropes
Death Leaper, 2x3 Zoanthropes

I think you can play around with combinations of Hive Tyrants and Harpies with HVC, and Tyrannofexes are solid, but they can't hope to stop a modern mech list without backup ranged AT, and for the Nids, that's all sunk into the Elites.

Agreed. Bad thing about Zoans is you need a Leaper to dumb down libbys or you're screwed. Wolves still won't care though with their super staffs of denial. He's strong though against leadership dependent armies...

I'm not sold on Harpies with VC yet but maybe Nids will be forced to buy them. 200 points for a Str. 9 -1 blast on a T5 4 wound platform...eh. Still, he has mobility. Dunno yet.

sourclams:

I think you're misreading what I'm saying. I'm not claiming Warrior Venom Cannons are primary anti-tank. I'm claiming them as 'get-you-by' anti-vehicle. Weapons S5-7 are anti-vehicle in my book (unless they have some rule like Lance or Melta or something so they can affected AV14).

All they have to do is Stun or Shake transports, or possibly Immobilise. So the primary anti-tank, the monstrous creatures like the Trygon and the Carnifex can get there and mulch them easily in combat. Use the swarms to make escaping from the wreckage more difficult and your job is half-way there - even the Deathleaper can be used more creatively to make Terminators escaping an exploding Land Raider more likely to be pinned.

After all, a Carnifex with a Heavy Venom Cannon and Scything Talons (or Crushing Claws) isn't going to sacrifice that much power and the ability to interdict mechanized units will go some considerable distance to ameliorating its lack of speed. Not to mention the added defense against Assault Cannon toting Land Speeders and Pirahnas, and the odd Vendetta. It doesn't need any help prying open tanks, but it does need help defending itself against light gunboats and catching transports.

Freeing up those Elite spots for stuff like Lictors and Zoanthropes for actual anti-tank work seems like a good idea because a S10 Lance shot will be a better anti-tank proposition than the S8 gun that the Hive Guard has. Likewise having Lictors on the field and helping to bring Zoanthropes in via Mycetic Spores seems better to me than plinking away at the armoured castle while your Tervigons and Termagants do...what? Presumably mob the contents of those transports once they get opened.

But it seems me that proposing S8 non-melta non-lance weapons as primary anti-tank would rightly be stupid if it were found in any other list. THose weapons are anti-tank in a pinch, but generally they're anti-vehicle and the list has other places for anti-vehicle weaponry.

Re: Deathleaper - I think he's still a must-take against Wolves just to shut down JotWW. LD7-8 psychic tests are nothing to be optimistic about.

Nurglitch, Lictors only work if they're on the board, so even if they arrive on turn 2, the spore pods that they're helping are still delayed at least til turn 3. That's generally not enough time to stop the transports before they've dropped their payload. Even the 6 wound bugs, with the possible exception of the Trygon [prime] are going to lose to dedicated assault units and hidden power fists.

The little bugs are good. Real good. Steroid Gaunts will obliterate even MCs in close combat, and much the same for Termagants and Gargs. But they need to get the charge to make best use of adrenal/poison. If they're trying to glance rhinos to death they're hugely vulnerable to being assaulted. MCs are in a similar boat; almost every unit on the board these days is carrying some sort of S7+ anti tank gun. If you've got 3 MCs trying to plod forward to bust rhinos, they're going to get shot dead before they get there, or right after they get there when they're also vulnerable to being assaulted.

Transports have to be dead before the wave gets there. Aside from the Tyrannofex, the reliable AT is all in the Elite slots. You can use HVCs on 170-200 point MCs to try to open them up, but then you're limiting yourself tactically by taking a multipurpose unit and shoehorning it into doing that one single thing for the majority of the game.

I wish Deathleaper was Fast Attack and Zoeys were Heavies. I think that'd open up a lot of options for Venomthropes and Ymgarl Stealers. But they're not, so the Elite Slots are pretty much reserved for the only units in the codex that can serve reliably in the ranged AT capacity.

sourclams wrote:I think he's still a must-take against Wolves just to shut down JotWW. LD7-8 psychic tests are nothing to be optimistic about.

Well right, I'm with you there. I was just pointing out that players that take Leaper + Zoans counting on nullifying hood tests....will be let down when they find themselves playing Wolves/Eldar. Due to that (and psy/hood tests in general), I don't consider Zoans reliable AT.

AgeofEgos:

I see you missed the point about how shifting some light anti-vehicle weapons to Troops frees up Elites for real anti-tank capability, but given your use of the term "terribad" I can see how we might have difficulty communicating. See the post above where I address sourclams' point.

For summary:

Anti-tank: Zoanthropes, Carnifex in close combat, Trygon, Tyrannofex, etc.

Anti-vehicle: Hive Guard, Tyranid Warriors, Carnifex in shooting, Lictors and Genestealers in close combat, Raveners in shooting and close combat, etc.

Anti-infantry: Tyranid Warriors, Termagants, Hormagaunts, Carnifex in shooting, etc.

About the cookie-cutter comment: I don't get mad that eventually a few cookie-cutter lists dominate certain people's perception of what constitutes an effective army. It's just annoying to have that narrow strategic vision as the received wisdom when the game lends itself so well to radical experimentation. I mean it's nice that you think each army list only has one or two optimal configurations, but that's moreso a reflection of the paucity of your strategic acumen than any reflection of the actual diversity to be found in army lists, and its a pity to have that paucity strangle discussions of non-obvious strategies.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

I see you missed the point about how shifting some light anti-vehicle weapons to Troops frees up Elites for real anti-tank capability, but given your use of the term "terribad" I can see how we might have difficulty communicating. See the post above where I address sourclams' point.

For summary:

Anti-tank: Zoanthropes, Carnifex in close combat, Trygon, Tyrannofex, etc.

Anti-vehicle: Hive Guard, Tyranid Warriors, Carnifex in shooting, Lictors and Genestealers in close combat, Raveners in shooting and close combat, etc.

Anti-infantry: Tyranid Warriors, Termagants, Hormagaunts, Carnifex in shooting, etc.

About the cookie-cutter comment: I don't get mad that eventually a few cookie-cutter lists dominate certain people's perception of what constitutes an effective army. It's just annoying to have that narrow strategic vision as the received wisdom when the game lends itself so well to radical experimentation. I mean it's nice that you think each army list only has one or two optimal configurations, but that's moreso a reflection of the paucity of your strategic acumen than any reflection of the actual diversity to be found in army lists, and its a pity to have that paucity strangle discussions of non-obvious strategies.

Terribad is from the Lonely Island group, lighten up Francis .

I've seen nothing in your reply to Sourclams that addresses the issues your suggestions face. If you are stating that Zoans are superior to Hive Guard....I'm not sure they are for the reasons Clams and I were discussing. They are fragile, more expensive than Hive Guard, rely on psy tests, must beat psy defense....then need to roll to hit/damage.

As for your last comment, there are always elite lists present in every army. Vulkan lists are popular for a reason, he force multiplies everything good in the SM codex.

Nurglitch I agree with what you have said. Nidz are not going to win many games versus mech armies if they sit back and trade shots across the table. It's too bad the venom cannon was changed into a blast weapon as sourclams has pointed out that really cuts down on it's effectiveness versus armor, so much to the point I think it's not worth taking anymore. What Nidz can now do is play the reserve game and come in on top of the enemy line by outflanking, infiltrating, tunneling and deep striking. It's all about saturating the immediate area with so many units that the mech player cannot gun them all down. You can now play Nidz a lot like daemons and I think it's the best option, it's definitely a lot more aggressive than rolling around with blobs of termigaunts.

Let's look at a sample list designed to be played completely held in reserve:

Flyrant
2x Trygon
2x genestealer brood (infiltrating/outflanking)
hormigaunts (outflanking)
Deathleaper
2x 2x Zoanthrope/Mycetic spore

First you are denying your opponent one turn of shooting, possibly two if you can go second. This list has nine units and six should arrive on the second turn due to the +1 for reserves from the Flyrant. I don't play mech IG so it's hard for me to say whether this army has enough firepower to slag six of these Tyranid units with one turn of shooting. Maybe sourclams could offer his opinion, I'm sure he would know. At least two of the remaining three units should come in on the third turn.

G

AgeofEgos:

My point is that these things need to be determined on the table rather than beforehand on paper. That's why most people like the Vulkan list, because it looks good on paper, nevermind that that it can be shut down easily because it needs to close with the enemy to optimize effectiveness, and being that close to the enemy without Combat Tactics makes them vulnerable to close combat. It's popular with people on the internet, but its weak from a point of actual tactics on the table that are difficult to see without models onto a table in front of you.

Similarly my point is that Zoanthropes are anti-tank, whereas Hive Guard are anti-vehicle, and that while anti-vehicle can be found elsewhere in the list, that is not the case with Zoanthrope's anti-tank capability. Yeah, maybe they are weaker in direct comparison, but situated in an actual arm trying to engage and defeat a mechanized opponent using all three Elite slots for Hive Guard, rather than mixing them up with the other Elite options makes for a one-dimensional and easily defeated army (not to mention lousy anti-tank!).

Green Blow Fly:

Actually, if a Heavy Venom Cannon is a Blast weapon then that's actually a good thing, given a Carnifices BS3. 4+ to hit isn't great, but an average of 3" deviation is, particularly if someone is trying to castle up their vehicles to deny shots to their side armour. Certainly better against vehicles with stupidly large footprints like a Land Raider. Plus it gives it dual-utility as an anti-infantry weapon.

Neat list though. That's what I'm talking about with thinking of alternates to some One True Spam-List. Diverse, yet different units back each other up as well as supporting each other.

It's going to need to pick a flank though, so exchanging a Trygon for a Mawloc might be a nice damper on people's inclination to castle so that they have flanks.

@GBF

How exactly are you going to kill 5+ transports and other assorted vehicles?

Genestealers no longer have flesh hooks. Assaulting into terrain is hard for them to deal with.

I don't think there is anything in that list that can assault the turn it comes in.

Coming in with that list only allows someone to defeat it in detail. On average you are going to get to throw 3-4 units close to your opponent. The other 2-3 may not get to start close enough.

How do you think those 3-4 units are going to stand up to the firepower of a 2k mech list?

If you plan on playing like that (which I am) then the +1 reserves for the tyrant is a must have. All units coming in on 4+ on turn 2 is too great a risk for getting ripped apart piecemeal. 3+ is far better, and with a fully reserved force you can overwhelm them in pretty short order.

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's too bad the venom cannon was changed into a blast weapon as sourclams has pointed out that really cuts down on it's effectiveness versus armor, so much to the point I think it's not worth taking anymore.

Why? Statistically the accuracy of a BS3 blast template is about 50% against a Rhino.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

My point is that these things need to be determined on the table rather than beforehand on paper. That's why most people like the Vulkan list, because it looks good on paper, nevermind that that it can be shut down easily because it needs to close with the enemy to optimize effectiveness, and being that close to the enemy without Combat Tactics makes them vulnerable to close combat. It's popular with people on the internet, but its weak from a point of actual tactics on the table that are difficult to see without models onto a table in front of you.

lol, I played Vulkan lists for quite some time before I got bored with it. I'm going to paint now.

Someone whining about spam.....in a Tyranid army? WTF is 100 gaunts considered? Spam is what Tyranids do it's their thing.

Really don't blame players for spamming units, poor codex design is at fault. All our (decent) ranged tank killing power comes from 2 units in 1 FOC slot. The meta game demands ranged anti-tank to be competitive. Which I consider to be S10 weapons. That's Zoans and Tyranofex, and yea get ready for a lot of them showing up in lists.

The glance/stun vehicles until the CC support catches them is not going to work. Your CC unit will finally pop open the vehicle and whatever was riding inside it will decimate you next turn.

To be successful with 5th edition Tyranids you need to pop vehicles at range and charge/shoot whatever was riding inside. I think we will quickly find 2x3 zoans+deathleaper, and 1-3 tyranofex the norm for competitive nids.

imweasel wrote:@GBF

How exactly are you going to kill 5+ transports and other assorted vehicles?

Genestealers no longer have flesh hooks. Assaulting into terrain is hard for them to deal with.

I don't think there is anything in that list that can assault the turn it comes in.

True, though it has the potential to shake up a lot of vehicles. Potentially 26 shots at S6, and 20-30 shots at Str 5, usually with the ability to go after side or rear armor. Plus the Zoanthropes to deal with any heavier tanks. Will it take out an army by itself? No, of course not - but softening it up and shaking/stunning things long enough to close the following round, is quite possible.

I think a lot of people are underestimating our ability to take out vehicles in assault. True, I agree that CC being the only way to kill vehicles is a big mistake and the best ranged AT stuff is in Elites (with Tyrannofex backup), but we have some fast, tear-em up CC stuff we can work with.

Flyrant with dual-talons: It's fast, it rerolls all hits, and every hit is a str. 6 meltagun vs. the rear. Even Land Raiders have cause to worry if they didn't move over 6". It's certainly fast enough to do the job.

Trygon: Not quite as fast as the Flyrant, but more attacks makes up for that and it still retains fleet in order to catch up to vehicles.

Harpies: At least it's a "cheap" TL Heavy Venom Cannon (not that those weapons are ever cheap), but it's still a Str. 5 flying MC with Scything Talons. Not something to toss against the heaviest tank in the biz, but if you're not attacking something at cruising speed, it's almost as good as the Flyrant at this role for about 60 points less. Str. 5+2d6 is still threatening vs. rear armor. Also, the fact that the Venom Cannons can potentially stun/immobilize a vehicle before you charge in gives a good one-two punch.

Deathleaper: Threatens "sit-back and shoot" vehicles extremely well. It's "super night-fight" rule means the opponent has to roll above-average just to shoot at the thing if you place it right and several S6 attacks on rear armor is painful. Deadly Rending means 5's even auto-pen AV 11 Russes. It's ability to show up anywhere certainly makes up for it's slower movement then fliers and it's got fleet besides.

Raveners: The least desirable choices of this list, each Ravener is basically 2 charging Genestealers (after throwing S.Talons into the equation) that actually have the speed to get to the rear armor of things. Very poor for assaulting transports and the like, and don't bother if the enemy rear armor exceeds 10, but a brood of 4 gives 20 attacks. That's about 11 hits on a mid-moving vehicle (after S.Talons) which equates to about 2 pens, which isn't shabby for a fairly modest 140pts.

Would I solely rely on close combat to get the job done vs. vehicles? Of course not. But given the things that can actually chase down and destroy vehicles, they can clean up any messes that Hive Guard/Zoanthropes/Tyrannofexes leave behind. Another example of the synergistic nature of the army, I suppose.

{Rant}

imweasel wrote:
How exactly are you going to kill 5+ transports and other assorted vehicles?

There is actually quite a bit of shooting in that list that can put a dent in most vehicles' side armor. All you need to do is immobilize say 2-3 so you can charge them the next turn. It's feasible. The Tyrant and Trygons can lay down around 18 S6 shots plus you've got the Zoies that should destroy 1-2 vehicles.

Genestealers no longer have flesh hooks. Assaulting into terrain is hard for them to deal with.

What if I run a squad of 20 genestealers with a Broodlord? I don't think there is any unit take can stand up to that kind of assault and even if they are in cover they'd probably be quite lucky to kill 10 genestealers.... And it's not like everybody is standing in a cluster of bushes, seriously.

I don't think there is anything in that list that can assault the turn it comes in.

Have you read the codex? The genestealers and hormigaunts can all outflank so it's quite possible they can charge the same turn they arrive from reserve. Give the hormigaunts adrenal glands so that can glance vehicles in close combat. The genestealers can infiltrate and fleet... That's a very powerful combination.

Coming in with that list only allows someone to defeat it in detail. On average you are going to get to throw 3-4 units close to your opponent. The other 2-3 may not get to start close enough.

Having played daemons since the release of that codex I can honestly say based upon my gaming experience that's simply not true.

How do you think those 3-4 units are going to stand up to the firepower of a 2k mech list?

Go back and read what I have said above.
{/Rant}

G

Trygons have S5 shooting

I think folks are underestimating the Lictors.

A unit of 3 would be under 200 points, much like the other good elite slots. On the round they arrive they've got 6 shots at s6, rending, which ought to put a penetrating hit or two on a light vehicle.

Then, they are one more threat the enemy has to deal with. With stealth they are rocking 3+ cover saves, presuming you put them in cover, and they have move through cover, fleet, assault grenades, hit and run and really good CC abilities at I6 if they don't get shot apart. They are no joke at all.

I think Lictors will find a home in competative list's Elite sections.

I wonder if a "Stealth Recon/Shock Troop" list would do any good. Take two units of three Lictors, Deathleaper, Outflanking Genestealers, Deepstriking Gargoyles and Spore Mines, Trygons. The only problem is an HQ choice, as it's the only thing that can't really Deepstrike or Outflank.

Indeed, Lictors in broods of 3 can be a serious threat.
One downside is that they cannot charge upon arrival.
But a good cover save and multiple wounds eventually help
them to survive one round of shooting.

Aduro wrote:I wonder if a "Stealth Recon/Shock Troop" list would do any good. Take two units of three Lictors, Deathleaper, Outflanking Genestealers, Deepstriking Gargoyles and Spore Mines, Trygons. The only problem is an HQ choice, as it's the only thing that can't really Deepstrike or Outflank.

A flying Hive Tyrant, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors in a Drop Pod and the Parasite of Mortrex can all deep strike.

Gaunts and genestealers can also use the mycetic spore to deepstrike but I think it's better if you can outflank these units.

G

Anyone considered the combo of two Tervigons, Old Commander Tyrant, a couple of Venomthroes and a swarm of super gaunts?

The two tervigons FNP each other & get a 5+ cover save, the gaunts get the same cover save and the 2+ save Hive Tyrant gets a 4+ cover from hiding behind the Tervigons. Everything has preferred enemy!

Excellently durable potent CC core, great way to protect/move up the +1 reserve Tyrant and should work well with the rest of the list coming in from reserves by various means.

Yes/no?

I'm just finishing painting three Pyrovores I started converting from Warriors as soon as I saw the models and fluff, and I intend to try and get use from them outside of the inevitable Apocalypse formation with Hellstorm template/some such. (I suspect that Apoc is where we'll see the Elites other than Guard/Zoey/Leaper making most of their appearances...)

Current thoughts are to drop them in a Spod in the middle of the enemy army and suicide them at a HW squad or something. I know that anti-infantry is a poor use of a potential Zoey/Guard/Leaper slot in an army where most everything can stomp infantry and my Biovores can do the same thing without getting popped by melta next turn, but I like them

40kenthusiast wrote:I think folks are underestimating the Lictors.

A unit of 3 would be under 200 points, much like the other good elite slots. On the round they arrive they've got 6 shots at s6, rending, which ought to put a penetrating hit or two on a light vehicle.

6 shots at BS3, and don't forget that Flesh Hooks (if I'm remembering this correctly; pretty sure I am) are AP-. They basically amount to a single assault cannon with -1 on the table. I don't think this is very good return at all for ~180-ish points. Add to that they're flame-bait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pryokon wrote: But given the things that can actually chase down and destroy vehicles, they can clean up any messes that Hive Guard/Zoanthropes/Tyrannofexes leave behind. Another example of the synergistic nature of the army, I suppose.

Yes but you're admitting that you rely on some combination of Guard/Zoeys/TFexes to serve as your primary anti tank, meaning your elite slots are basically filled. I don't deny that a Carnifex or Hive Tyrant is okay at crushing vehicles, but you really can't have 200+ point bugs running around chasing rhinos Benny-Hill style.

GBF wrote:What if I run a squad of 20 genestealers with a Broodlord? I don't think there is any unit take can stand up to that kind of assault and even if they are in cover they'd probably be quite lucky to kill 10 genestealers.... And it's not like everybody is standing in a cluster of bushes, seriously.

This unit is bordering on 350-ish points, isn't it? Not saying it's impossible to make work, but I'd rather have Hormagaunts. 30 Gaunts on Roids should actually kill more than the Stealers, in or out of cover, for fewer points.

DarkHound wrote:Why? Statistically the accuracy of a BS3 blast template is about 50% against a Rhino.

It's a little less than that, actually. A 3+ scatter will put you off a rhino's center, so you need to roll 5 or below on 2d6. That puts it at about 40% to hit.

Im building a Small list to help the local Nids players get exited about their new codex, since im putting together a bunch of models they can borrow i was also running a few games, here are a few units i thought were all stars. I think people really forget about em, but i -love- raveners they can deepstrike if needed, get em on the other side of the table, either IN or Behind cover, have 3 wounds each, a high WS, a high volume of attacks, can have rending and reroll 1's or reroll all in CC, and are beasts, enabling em to move, run, and assualt 12 (love fleet on beasties) i ran four in my second game, and ate 2 Tau Pirahana and one devilfish (all three had Flachette sooooo it did hurt) but i can't wait until i can sic em on a unit of Troops, Not saying they will down Assualt Termies, or even Vangaurd vets with ease, just saying they are a solid unit.

Also i think some people might be underestimateing the power of a Shooting Tyrant and shooting Carnifex, put heavy venom cannons on em, and shoot away, i killed almost an entire nob squad with the Tyrant with one. It is prettty nasty, Plus people still remember assualting them can be scary (Speacially the HT)

And yeah, im really impressed with Genestealers so far, specailly with a brood lord it just gets -nasty-


i am -not- however impressed with reserve running, i havn't had to much luck with my reserves, tend to get shot to death before i get into CC, but then again i don't have alot of models to field yet. i also Miss without Number, and i looooooove lictors, they rock, deathleaper too.


Though i haven't really "won" a game yet, im still working on it, the codex is new ganna take time to figure out points per unit, most effective and deployments

sourclams wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:I think folks are underestimating the Lictors.

A unit of 3 would be under 200 points, much like the other good elite slots. On the round they arrive they've got 6 shots at s6, rending, which ought to put a penetrating hit or two on a light vehicle.

6 shots at BS3, and don't forget that Flesh Hooks (if I'm remembering this correctly; pretty sure I am) are AP-. They basically amount to a single assault cannon with -1 on the table. I don't think this is very good return at all for ~180-ish points. Add to that they're flame-bait.

6 rending S6 shots...
Rend changes it to AP2, 6 shots, 3 hits, 50% average chance to get a rend. I'll take it

Ah, fair point on the Rending rule. Still that's only 1 rending hit every 2 turns. Terrible return on the investment, and suffers from limitations on placement.

sourclams wrote:Ah, fair point on the Rending rule. Still that's only 1 rending hit every 2 turns. Terrible return on the investment, and suffers from limitations on placement.

the key is not using them as anti tank, but using them for their "locator beacons" to deep strike other units in.

(Mawloc, Shrikes, Gargoyles, Rippers, Spods, Trygon, etc)

I gotta ask, what "limitations on placement" do lictors suffer from? They are like Marbo, you can put them anywhere.

This is how I see them working. A common situation is that the enemy has a shooting element and a countercharging element. The Lictors come in near the shooting element, sharing their cover (ie, standing on the rock the bassie squad is hiding behind) and shoot some nice vehicle. Then it's the enemies turn. It's quite the dilemma.

They want to kill the Lictors, because it's fail if they get to move + fleet + charge next round, you'll lose vehicles A (s6 rending with ones rerolled for scything talons will shred anything with armor 10 or 11 in the back) or they'll get into a squad and start the hit and run nonsense. But shooting the Lictors is harder than it appears. They've got a total of 9 wounds, and ld 10, so you sort of have to kill them all, but if you shoot your lascannons or missile launchers (which can ID them, and are the best way to finish them) that's lascannns and missile launchers that aren't shooting at the approaching MC brick. If you shoot bolters or what have you at them it'll take a lot to get it done, and flamers have to deal with the fact that there are few models in the unit per wounds. Obviously a unit of burnas will sort em out, but most armies lack the easy doom flamer approach needed.

Ordinarily with a unit like this you just assault them, but even that isn't quite so easy. i6, ws 6, 9 attacks, reroll 1's, s6, rending, will thin out the squad, and if the power fist rolls average they'll hold, hit and run and be up on something. Even if you do kill them, that's your counterattack unit out of position to go after the MC's.

I'm not saying they are the best thing in the book, just that they deserve close inspection.

The key to them is that you place them anywhere. It's not like Ymgari, where you have to pick before the game, you just put them where they need to go and try to pen a vehicle. Heck, if they come in late you can just drop em in near an objective that the enemy doesn't have fully circled, and pray.

Redemption wrote:

Aduro wrote:I wonder if a "Stealth Recon/Shock Troop" list would do any good. Take two units of three Lictors, Deathleaper, Outflanking Genestealers, Deepstriking Gargoyles and Spore Mines, Trygons. The only problem is an HQ choice, as it's the only thing that can't really Deepstrike or Outflank.

A flying Hive Tyrant, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors in a Drop Pod and the Parasite of Mortrex can all deep strike.

The Parasite! Perfect, he can join the Deepstriking Gargoyles!

40kE has hit it on the head. I have been underwelmed with the Bug codex as a whole, but the Lictors intrigue me. They are one of the better units in the book and probably the unit I would fear the most when playing against them.

Things like Lictors, Heavy Devs, Spods.. yes alone they are sub-par anti-tank but combined and averaged out you should be able to get some decent numbers..

I mean when you have a Assault 6 str6 6" drop-spod weapon, Aint bad!

One lictor is all you need and the Death Leaper is the best. As expensive as things are it's a waste of points to take more than one. I am taking the Death Leaper so he can assassinate Sly Marbo every time I play against IG.

G

Like others in this thread, I'm finding it difficult to deal with AV14/Land Raiders. I think that there is enough midrange anti-vehicle fiepower to keep most light armor in check, but AV14 is very difficult to keep under control and deal with. I'm messing with something like this right now:

Hive Tyrant: Old Aversary, Armored Shell, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Stranglethorn Cannon

3x Zoanthropes

2x Zoanthropes

Deathleaper

Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

14x Termagants

13x Termagants

Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

1750

I really don't like the Tyrannofexes at all, I feel like they are WAY too many points. However, that long range weapon at str10 is so important that it is very hard to leave them out. I considered podding in Fexes but that doesn't solve the issue with the Land Raiders (though 2-3 of them coming in together can be quite good against meched up gunlines). Originally, I wanted to pod in my Zoanthropes and such, but even with the +1 I feel like it can go badly for me. Also with the Tyrannofexes in there I feel like it might be worthwhile to swap over to Hive Guard. With FNP and/or cover they're quite resilient to ML fire and don't suffer against Runic Weapons like SW do. It might be worthwhile to run one unit of each (Zoies and HG) in conjuction with Deathleaper. I'm unsure if I really like the double Tervigon yet or not. It is a very strong core to the army with the Tyrant there too, but Jaws annihilates them and they can hit me with it before I can put them in the shadow. I can do some damage to 1 Jaws with Deathleaper but he will only really be a major influence on that 1/3 of the time, and then decent 1/2 of the time, and more or less whatever the other 1/3 of the time.

At the moment I feel like my list is too predictable. I really like how ready and able the new Tyranid codex is for applying pressure from all over the place through different deployment options and I feel like that it very strong. I just can't really find a balance between units to reserve/outflank/DS and units to start on the table that I'm really comfortable with.

One thing that has been in my mind also is to not worry so much about the Land Raider, and instead try as hard as possible to prevent it from setting its charge up without having to tangle with the supergants that protect my core of big beasties. Anything that could come out of the LR can get eaten alive by a bunch of angry, poisoned, counterattacking gants. Maybe this comes down to the way I saturate the table with gants and the spacing between them and the MCs, though I have a feeling that if they're trying to set the charge up and I can't hinder the LR, they're going to get it.

I really like the feel of the new Bugs though, and I'm very excited about giving them a good run through the next couple of years.

Green Blow Fly wrote:One lictor is all you need and the Death Leaper is the best. As expensive as things are it's a waste of points to take more than one. I am taking the Death Leaper so he can assassinate Sly Marbo every time I play against IG.

G

Interesting. I have found 3 Lictors to be superior to the Deathleaper. I am not enamored with the DL's leadership reducing ability for 140pts. It has been more productive to take 3 Lictors instead for 195pts. The DL can be taken out by one tactical squad while the 9 wounds from the Lictor brood survive. I have not found it terrible to have psychic hoods on the table. The Zopes are leadership 10 and the Libby is leadership 10. The zopes have a better chance of winning the hood roll than the Libby and the Libby has to win 3 times in a row. It has never happened yet against me.

The Lictors have been powerful behind the enemy lines. Guard tanks have been out of position, the enemy shuffles around, but can never get rid of all 3. The disruption they cause helps the other elements get into the enemy lines. I can't see the DL ever doing that. He is so much easier to drop.

I am curious as to how the terrofex?? has been performing for people in games at almost 300 points for one with regeneration it is a tough call.

There are some armies where the Deathleaper will sill shine in close combat such as IG. Other armies such as say Black Templars he can fubar Rites of Battle and run distraction.

I now see what people are saying by taking three Lictors in one unit, it makes a lot more sense! It seems like a pretty good idea if you want to spend that many points. The combined shooting is nice but it means you would have to move into assault range.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:There are some armies where the Deathleaper will sill shine in close combat such as IG. Other armies such as say Black Templars he can fubar Rites of Battle and run distraction.

I now see what people are saying by taking three Lictors in one unit, it makes a lot more sense! It seems like a pretty good idea if you want to spend that many points. The combined shooting is nice but it means you would have to move into assault range.

G

By that token though (with Lictors/Deathleaper being able to handle things like IG in combat that is) you wouldn't hesitate much to drop those 3 Lictors right behind a Chimera and open fire on its rear armor provided you're reasonably sure your 195pt unit won't be wiped in the folloing turn. I'd have no real problem revealing Lictors next to a unit or two of IG if it meant they should take Fleshhook shots at the rear armor of a tank like a Leman Russ or artillery piece. Your opponent then has to deal with them or they will start eating tanks and soldiers alike. Against things like Marines they feel a lot more underwhelming though, and at T4 if they don't appear in terrain they have absolutely no protection from Krak Missiles. This makes them pretty difficult to find solid placement for as they need to be up close and personal to use their Fleshhooks and get the right charges, but in getting close like that they are often times going to be at least partially exposed to brutal str8+ firepower.

I keep wanting to take Lictors. I'm just struggling to see how they can be placed in areas that they can apply real meaningful pressure (ie be a threat and not be killed easily in the following shooting phase).

Deathleaper is a mixed bag for me. I love him in theory, but he won't always be very good even against things he should be great against (dropping LD10 to LD9 is very underwhelming... dropping it to 8 or 7 is a beating though).

Also has anyone considered the Broodlord's Aura of Despair as a stackable LD modifier to help defend against Hoods and Psykers? It states blatantly in the book that the effects stack from multiple Broodlords. The issue is that they're pretty damn expensive to take and Genestealers are not really good at receiving punishment. Having 2-3 AoDs stacked onto the enemy army can be pretty significant in all areas from morale checks to psychic checks. If you can stack them successfully too, you can then utilize some of the Tyrant's psychic powers to pretty brutal effect (Psychic Scream and The Horror). It is very expensive to put on the table points wise, which is a real limiting factor, but it is some food for thought.

I'm with Darth on Deathleaper. I fully admit this is Theoryhammer on my part since I haven't fielded it, but I just can't swallow spending 140 just to give my Zoeys a boost against hoods that haven't really shut them down to this point anyway. All my psykers are Ld10...I'm just gonna keep rolling with that. I wasn't really enamored with Lictors, but I think Darth got me interested in giving them a try with my ever-evolving reserve build.

Similarly, while the Tyrannofex is clearly the best ranged option for dealing with Land Raiders, I personally can't justify spending almost a sixth of an army's points on one. I'm not allergic to throwing points into something if it comes with the right payoff. But 250-300 makes me sneeze and break out. That may be a metagame thing, as I'm far more likely to face Rhinos and Chimeras than GK LR spam. And that army I posted earlier -- while seemingly soft, very light on MCs and heavier on small bugs than most lists people are posting -- is actually doing just fine cracking transports and killing passengers. Yes, LRs are a problem...but I'd rather try to "general" my way around them than short myself in other areas.

I think Mahu has spoken pretty eloquently on the strength of the codex to be its unconventional deployment options, and I tend to agree that the real strength of the codex will eventually be found there. Once I'm done prepping for my January tourney, I'm gonna devote all my time to reserve and hybrid armies.

It's not just giving the Zoeys a boost, it's also the only real psychic defense that the codex has got.

Similarly, the argument against Lictors isn't that they're not good, just that they're not good enough to avoid taking either Zoeys or Hive Guard.

But in a third of your games, that extra psychic defense is -1 Ld. For 140 pts. That just doesn't add up for me.

And I agree regarding Elites slots, although I think Elites slots tend to free up in reserve-heavy lists since they tend to leave HG behind.

I've been following this thread closely and have a couple of thoughts:


Like GBF, I think an "in-your-face" reserve list ala demons might be the best bet. The problem is trying to make sure they don't come in piecemeal. I was thinking that maybe stacking a Hive Tyrant with Swarmlord might be a useful (if expensive combo) as they use different rules to modify the reserve roll, making it stack. Further, Swarmlord allows you to reroll outflanking rolls which could help. Probably prohibitively expensive, but it's an idea I've been bouncing around.

Like most people in here, my biggest concern with the Nids is that most of their anti-tank is all in the elites slot, along with some other choices like Deathleaper/Lictors and Venomthropes (something a unit that could provide even more oomph to the Gaunt farm). Personally, I've been debating taking a unit a Zoeys in pod, a HG unit, Deathleaper, and a Tyranofex. Couple this with some deep-striking Trygons/Screamer-killers in pods and I think I would have anti-tank covered. However, I am curious to hear what people consider is enough Nid anti-tank.

A final thing I'm wondering is do Raveners/Gargoyles have places in a competitive Nid List? Same with Troop warriors? Can they be made to work?

I wish I didn't have to wait 30 days for the AB datafile, makes messing around with different list builds and options to spend points on a lot easier.

I think Gargoyles most definitely have a place, especially in the Tervigon/Tyrannofex lists where they can be given FNP and provide a cover screen for all the MCs.

Gargoyles and winged warriors are something I think could work together really well offensively.

I like troop warriors a lot in combination with a Tyranid Prime and Mycetic Spore as well. They can threaten almost anything and with the Spore can play havoc to the enemy backfield. With Deathspitters they can dish out some shooting hurt the turn they land (either on infantry or str5 vs rear armor 10, with 4-5 heavy bolter-equivilent weapons you can do damage to that) and the Prime is very frightening with Lash Whip and Bonesword.

I've envisioned dropping the 3 lictors along a flank, just behind Gargoyles or Raveners as those units move up. It gives the Lictors cover from most shooting and helps to overload one side of the table vs. the enemy. The Lictors don't always need to shoot their fleshhooks when they come in. The possibility of getting all those str 6 rending attacks into the mech lines is to nice. Drop the Lictors behind a Trygon if nned be. They don't always need to be placed into true cover to be effective.

Lash of Submission is the psychic power bugs should fear the most. It will move Gant screens away from the Tervigons and send the wrong bugs into the teeth of Oblit plasmacannons or Berzerker charges. The Deathleaper can help in that regard, but most Chaos lash lists run 2 HQ's with lash.

But one little str8 pie would remove so many points-worth of warriors on 2's.

If it hits, it's killing three Warriors, if you have no cover. Not really That bad.

You don't need to drop the Warriors into the teeth of a str 8 pie plate. They also get a chance to run after the drop don't they? That can help mitigate the potential damage. I really don't see to many Guard Russ' anymore. We're talking about Medusa's and marine vindicators as the biggest threat to insta-kill the Warriors. Two units deep striking Lictors can help shut down for a turn.

Bugs have another psychic defense and they can spread it around - it's Shadow in the Warp. Sure it's the same range as rapid firing but if you spread synaspse throughout your rank and file it's going to help. You can field a lot of synapse creatures with the new codex and even go so far as to build a list that has no units with instinctive behavior... That might be going a bit overboard but then again maybe not. Not having to worry about rolling for instinctive behavior in the latter stages of the game could be the difference between a win and a loss.

Anyways back to a squad of three lictors versus just fielding the Deathleaper... Sure three lictors has some things going for it. What I like about the Deathleaper is versus some opponents it's going to get in their heads and they'll worry about it, which could lead to second guessing. The same can be said about three lictors but the Deathleaper is better at it since he can yoyo on and off the table. Sly Marbo is another unit that gets inside people's heads and makes them worry. Lictors in general can make it very hard for an opponent to shoot them and if they overfocus, shooting a lot at the lictor(s) with low odd of success then they aren't shooting at your other units. I will mainly field the Deathleaper for the psychic defense and because I think he is a great counter to IG in general. Psychology can and should be a big part of the game.

G

See, once I start going reserve-heavy, I feel like I'm gonna be dropping Shadow all over them anyway. Deathleaper might make more sense in a sloggy army that can't bring Shadow into play quickly, but then I get concerned that it doesn't synergize well otherwise. Although I suppose "Where'd it go" makes it harder to come to grips with than your ordinary lone deep striker in a sloggy army.

I've found Gargoyles are golden as a moving screen at the very least. Their visual profile provides lots of LOS blockage and their speed prevents them from slowing up the rest of your slogging stuff. The latter was an eternal annoyance with 3rd and 4th ed swarms. Too often your front stuff rolled the "1" on the fleet roll while your second or third rank rolled the "6".

I would like to know why people are advocating the tyrannofexes. I understand that it's a S10 shot (x2) at long range. I also understand that zoanthropes are decidedly vulnerable to psychic hoods (though mitigated somewhat by deathleaper) and that hive guard have issues with range, therefore making the tyrannofex look optimal.

In my line of thinking why not take 2 or 3 trygon primes along with 2x3 zoanthropes and deathleaper. TBH it's not the tanks that scare me. 1 large pie plate or 2 doesn't make much difference to a 6 wound model. It's the transports containing double tap plasma once I DS in. Zoanthropes can open up the transports then the primes unleash 12 S5 shots into the hapless unit...each. In my 2k list I also include a tyrant and 3 biovores for the +1 to reserves and more long range troop killing. There's a lot of extra buffs of course that can be used. Give the tyrant wings then DS in and give BS1 to those heavy weapons/special weapons. Outflank a tervigon and he can hopefully give FnP to protect against massed infantry fire if there's a blob of infantry of multiple MLs.

And remember that zoanthropes are quite resilient with the 3++. It's not easy to take out 18 MC wounds as well as 6 3++ save units in 1 turn, which is pretty much all you will have.

Just my 2cents.

You need something to take out or threaten LRs before turn 2.

It's going to be hard for most armies to take out landraiders before the second turn and impossible if they start in reserve. I know people are scared to death of armies featuring 2+ landraiders but really how often do you really see them? They are out there that is for sure though.

G

If you're whole army is in reserve (or at least the majority I don't see the need to deal with the landraiders so quickly. You can avoid where they come on with the stuff that can't scratch it. The stuff that can takes it out (zoanthropes), then you open fire with pretty much everything at the contents, as well as reducing their WS and BS to 1. That uber unit of termies isn't looking so great now.

I should be testing my 2k list next week to see how it plays out. Currently the biggest weakness I see is dice rolls. If you don't roll majority 3+ for reserves first turn for several key units your other stuff gets hammered. Will get a better feel for the other weaknesses once it's on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oops. Second turn, not first.

Gornall wrote:I've been following this thread closely and have a couple of thoughts:


Like GBF, I think an "in-your-face" reserve list ala demons might be the best bet. The problem is trying to make sure they don't come in piecemeal. I was thinking that maybe stacking a Hive Tyrant with Swarmlord might be a useful (if expensive combo) as they use different rules to modify the reserve roll, making it stack. Further, Swarmlord allows you to reroll outflanking rolls which could help. Probably prohibitively expensive, but it's an idea I've been bouncing around.

Per the Codex, two regular Hive Tyrants with Hive Commander stack their +1 to reserves for a +2 total and each allows a seperate unit to outflank.

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's going to be hard for most armies to take out landraiders before the second turn and impossible if they start in reserve. I know people are scared to death of armies featuring 2+ landraiders but really how often do you really see them? They are out there that is for sure though.

G

I guess I'm the monster under the tale, then
I play 2 Raider CSM as my primary army, and I've gotta say that against 2 T-fex I'll reserve up and wait for Termicide to hit them (kill one, wound the other) before putting Raiders on the table and bombing for the Tervigons and gaunts. I just can't run the very decent risk (~1/3) of one of my Zerk squads getting dumped out on the table turn 1 or 2. I'd much rather have Zoans drop and kill my Raiders than have Zoans dropping templates on my exposed Zerks (along with getting Gaunt mobbed, Paroxysmed, etc. ).

And it's much better to make Raiders start in reserve than having them spending a couple turns shooting MCs for the Nid player.

Boy did I have an awesome weekend. I played 5 games with the new nid codex. Three against and two with. Manimal just came over and we spent a sunday beating up the codex with some very mean unfriendly armies.

First, a disclaimer. We weren't playing a fluff campaign, we weren't making up our own missions, we weren't playing cooperatively. We were playing 'best general' style tourney play. There are some really cool really fun units in the codex, but unfortunately with Nids, there has proven to be only one functional archetype when facing nasty mech lists. If your neighborhood isn't as cut-throat as mine, you'll likely think I'm overstating certain things. And if you aren't a tourney guy, then just go buy whatever suits you. All units in the nid dex have synergy, but when you are facing either 2+ land raiders filled with thunderhammer terminators or 12+ armor 12 shooty vehicles with IG, you just can't take anything but anti-armor.

And no, close combat did not work out for armor kill. We tried it 3 times, I was piloting the list once, yes we were careful, yes we tried to get cover, and no, we weren't able to not get tabled with a pure CC army.

Ok, in case you want to see the lists... here were the 'control' lists...

librarian null zone avenger
6x THSS terms
6x THSS terms
10x marines flamer missile rhino
10x marines flamer missile rhino
2x MM attack bikes
2x MM attack bikes
land raider crusader with multi melta and extra armor
land raider crusader with multi melta and extra armor

and

CCS with 4x melta astropath and fleet officer in chimera with heavy flamer
10x PBS in chimera with heavy flamer
PCS 4x flamer chimera with heavy flamer
infantry squad heavy bolter chimera with heavy flamer
infantry squad heavy bolter chimera with heavy flamer
HWS autocannons
HWS autocannons
veterans 3x melta chimera with heavy flamer
vendetta with heavy bolters
vendetta with heavy bolters
vendetta with heavy bolters
manticore
manticore


They might not be your favorite build types, but its not really up for discussion whether or not they are "hard" lists, IMO.

Ok, Manimal and I were testing two distinct types of nid list. One of them worked. After it got tweaked it immediately was competitive, and the other was un-workable and scrapped.

Every workable list concept we conceived by the end of the testing started with this 830 point core.

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon

If you are a tourney player, and you use army builder, just create a file with those four units on it and save it as "tourney list template".

Look, I wish it wasn't true, We tried 9 zoans, we tried 6 zoans and deathleaper, competent mechanized opponents will trade you a transport for each zoan unit you put down. You have 2 units or 3, they have 12.

Ok, I can't really batrep the games but I'll tell you how our winning list actually outshot IG, and how the gant farm engine completely shut down two land raiders full of space marines.

Here is the list that actually outshot IG.

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
3x zoanthropes
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
30x termagants
30x termagants

I was playing IG at the time, and here is what happened. Turn 1 I attempted to kill a t-fex. I know that once my vendettas are dead, my chance of killing a t-fex drops to zero. Catalyst gets put on hive guard, and go. I put some wounds on a tyrranofex with vendettas, I lose a vendetta. Turn 2, I almost finish off a tyrranofex and lose another vendetta. Turn 3 one t-fex dead, all vendettas dead. Ok, you know what wasn't fun during that time? Shooting at coversave having FNP hive guard with multi-lasers and autocannons. The wounds I was able to cause on them from "fire on my target' HWS were the only ones that seemed to stick. They can handle ALL KINDS of IG shooting. My manticores were dry on turn 4, all vendettas dead, and I was looking at a fresh T-fex, and a unit of 1 hive guard and a unit of 2 hive guard. The game was about to get late. I had a firm grip on one objective, the nids clearly had two, and a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield. My CCS with meltas and my vets with meltas were going to be trying their hardest to drop the tervigon after I burn away the gants, but there were way too many fearless models in play, and my second objective was easily blocked.

To make it clear, nids don't outshoot IG shooting on a turn by turn basis... they outshoot IG armies on a game by game basis. It was close, and with the addition of more lascannons I could easily make it a game, and dice can always fall differently, but understand that the core that I posted was vital to that win.

When that same IG army faced my "all drop" army with 3 trygons, 15 raveners with deathspitters and 10x warriors with deathspitters plus tyranid prime. It was an absolute embarrassment. Turn 2 two trygons showed up as did a 5 model ravener brood. The trygon and raveners both got amazingly lucky and killed a chimera each on their turn of shooting. Then I said go. Two WHOLE trygons and an entire 5 man ravener unit were handed back to me before IG turn was over. Nothing weird about the dice either. its just... like that.

Ok, what about marines you say? Well, that same list that won the test game against IG went up against marines twice. Since I had already played the gant farm engine against marines before, I knew exactly how to trip up manimal in the first mission. Marines ended up winning on kill points. Later on in the day we played it again. Although the t-fexes were unable to kill off my land raiders, I was unable to get a clear tank shock past the gant screen. In previous games with land raiders, the land raider is able to casually unload full salvoes into gants until you finally outstrip the engine, then you are free and clear to charge a tervigon or t-fex and end the game. With two t-fexes and potentially a zoanthrope unit, you are on a clock. It might be a while, but every turn there is a chance that your land raider is popped. That means you have to make a move early, which also means you are probably going to have to charge something you don't want to charge. In the case of the second game, I had two choices... get out with both termies and charge one 20 man gant unit, easily exploding it and then receiving a charge from the other 20 man unit and two freshly created gant units... or splitting my charge each unit taking on a separate gant unit, hopefully winning with both, then hopefully the tervigons both get bad rolls and doubles to boot.... I chose the latter, and ultimately, was never able to get back into the land raiders. I ALMOST killed a t-fex with my bikes and land raiders before I lost the bikes, and then one of my MMs got blown off of my other land raider, and my tac squads just got controlled at that point. The nids didn't have to catcth them, they just had to head to objectives. Tac squads are no match even on a lucky day to a fresh crushing claw tervigon.

Something for all budding tervigon players to learn right now.... trust me on this one. Do NOT make babies just because you can. You need to have the threat of a fresh unit ready for an emergency situation. In the first test game, manimal was just trying to poop out an intimidating model count. I wasn't intimidated, because i've seen the gag before. So he had this ridiculous crush of models that he didn't need in front of his tervigons. Now he wasn't able to move the tervigons where he wanted, and he doubled out on both tervies. With the knowledge that he can't make more, I was able to know exactly where each termagant unit was going to be. I received a crappy charge from a termagant unit, and after winngin it, there was a wide open lane to a tervigon for my thunderhammer termies. The next time around, Manimal didn't make anything until he needed it. With 60 gants in play, he had plenty of depth to block all land raider doors post tank shock. After I made my play for his tervigon, I switched and unloaded on his gant unit, and also moved up two tac squad flamers and my avenger librarian was lurking as well. Manimal can count, and he can see that I have enough template to clear a tervigon charge lane next turn, and so then and only hen did he make a unit. It was good too because he doubled out after making it. He re-sealed off his MCs and i was out another turn, or forced to charge something i don't want to charge. Use progenitor as a defense mechanism. Not as a way to make an unusable and unwieldy amount of guardsmen.

Ok, one more bit about the hive tyrant, and i feel really sad saying this. Preferred enemy is a fantastic bubble option, and the stranglethorn cannon is a passable weapon option for a preferred enemy engine, but at his cost, the tyrant needs to be a passable counter-cc unit. He certainly is in casual games, but the sad truth is taht in cut-throat tourney lists, the only CC units that you see at the top tables are absolute face rapers. Thunderwolf cavalry, bloodcrushers and thunder hammer terminators are the only three that really come to mind. The crappy thing about them is that they all just bounce the tyrant. He doesn't have an invulnerable save, and they all do. I know Ive been telling you guys to get the tyrant, and I hope you'll all forgive me... but he is a no-go.

There is a bright side however.... Believe it or not, swarmlord is in! His preferred enemy is both worse and better, he is unable to have a 2+ save, but he can actually ruin all of those units I mentioned. Taking down their ridiculous storm shields or 5+ invulnerables, instant deathing the thunderwolves, taking 4+ saves against their weapons, and dropping paroxysm on them makes him the ultimate counter-assaulter. Using that same shooty core I mentioned earlier, I was able to make a choppy nid list. And I kept my promise to the guys that wanted me to make hormagaunts work.

Check out the "choppy" nid army.

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
swarmlord
2x tyrant guard
7x genestealers with toxin sacs
25x hormagaunts with toxin sacs
25x hormagaunts with toxin sacs

Swarmlords 18" synapse bubble keeps the speedy hormies happy for longer, the genestealers show up sooner and on the side you wanted... the hive guard are still screened until they can get to table center and find cover, and the t-fexes will just be opening up transports for hormies from turn 1.

this list loses when you have that day where you just can't get a 'destroyed' result on your penetration dice, which is unfortunate. But the swarmlord is really the ultimate "sit down" unit for versing uber CC killers, and rather than preferred enemy-ing the hormies, he will likely drop furious charge on them instead so that they can use their scything talons to great effect.

25 furious charging poisoned hormagaunts kill 28 orks at initiative 6.

It seems to me that the tervigon is all that termagants really want... but hormagaunts love some hive tyrant action. the gunline wall is slow and steady zombie grind down, and the swarmlord hormie rush, while less consistent, is much more direct and quick in its killy-ness. But both versions need a minimum of transport opening capabilities, or they are sunk.

Any thoughts or questions on other unit interactions... just let me know.

Sooooo... You're saying it's a good thing I enjoyed building my first T-Fex?

Shep wrote:3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon

My group found this as well. We have not play tested to the extent you have however.

We also believe that death leaper is very good, but we have also thought about just having 3 zoans out there like you used.

I love the batreps shep. You have done an extremely good job and deserve a pat on the back.

Shep, were the vendettas in reserve for the ig list? If you bring down 6 zoanthropes and 2/3 trygon primes in against them I see them getting toasted when you arrive in your spod. After that the IG list looks likes it lacks low ap guns to take out the multiple MC's in their midst.

Marine list looks nasty. Null zone would most definately screw up the zoanthropes there, but still...with trygon support after they knock out the landraiders the termies are then going to be hit by 24-36 shots from the trygons. Again, without their uber units at their disposal they lack the punch to knock out the MC's running rampant through their lines.

My 2k list looks something like this. Bear in mind that it's an allcomers, but it could be tweaked to be more competitive

Tyrant
wings
Hive commander

Deathleaper

3 zoanthropes in a pod

10 gaunts

tervigon
catalyst
crushing claws

10 gaunts

tervigon
catalyst

20 gargoyles
poison, furious charge

20 gargoyles
poison, furious charge

Trygon alpha

Trygon alpha

3 biovores

The trick is to DS most of your units into their lines and obliterate the threats to the MCs. I see a couple of units in both the IG and marine lists that would need to be eliminated (IG vendettas, SM termies). Vendettas are easy enough if you use the thropes, For marines I would have to drop my gargoyles for another unit of zoanthropes. Drop both landraiders and mince the contents with the trygons. Maybe get a kill or 2. Then hit one of the terminator units with -1WS/BS and watch them crumble in assault against your trygon.

I know it relies on reserves and dice rolls can screw you, but if it works it should do wonderful things...On paper at least.


Also...I think the tyrant now is definately a support character more than anything else. He has cool stats and a load of options and abilities, but with no inv. save he just doesn't seem to cut it as the cc monster he used to be (not that he had one before...but he still seemed better).

Shep wrote:a freaking book on nids.

Well, that's a shame, but not much more than I had expected. A one-dimensional core really cripples high-level play IMO

Makes me glad I have 14 Lascannons in my upcoming Guard.

I really have to say that all the sharing of your playtesting that you do is great-it really helps those with less time and no high-level regular opponents (like me ) to get their acts in order as the meta changes.

3 Cheers for Shep!

So here's my concern... are the new nids basically equivilent to CSM where only slight variations of one basic core are viable?

That was my immediate impression as well from what Shep's saying.

At least the variations for this differ in playstyle

Actually, the new nids remind me of some descriptions of fantasy Vampire Counts. "Let me raise 500 skelletons, HA! Charge me now!!!"

only instead of zombies you are filling the field with Gaunts

Shep's core is based off extreme mech guard and dual LR TH/SS termy squads. Which is something you do sometimes see at higher tables. Though in a 5 game tournament scenario you'll see half of those nasty lists knocked out of the running in round one since most events use their version of "comp" to do the first round pair ups.

Though I appreciate what I'm seeing from Shep in his testing I doubt that I'll be running T-fex's at all. I won't say I'll never do it cause we know what happens when you say never but you'll never see me without at least 6 Hiveguard.

Gornall wrote:So here's my concern... are the new nids basically equivilent to CSM where only slight variations of one basic core are viable?

Not at all. There is hardly a unit in that codex that isn't going to see use, but in the environment Shep is playing, even one or two percent better means that you need to take that unit instead.

Shep wrote:Boy did I have an awesome weekend. I played 5 games with the new nid codex. Three against and two with. Manimal just came over and we spent a sunday beating up the codex with some very mean unfriendly armies.

Ok, one more bit about the hive tyrant, and i feel really sad saying this. Preferred enemy is a fantastic bubble option, and the stranglethorn cannon is a passable weapon option for a preferred enemy engine, but at his cost, the tyrant needs to be a passable counter-cc unit. He certainly is in casual games, but the sad truth is taht in cut-throat tourney lists, the only CC units that you see at the top tables are absolute face rapers.

There is a bright side however.... Believe it or not, swarmlord is in!

Thanks for the report. Nice to see one of the special characters made a list. I am glad I play against more casual opponents as I will be running with the Stranglethorn/Preferred Enemy Tyrant as my main HQ. Not that I think he is the best; I just want to use the models I have.

Sad to here your Drop army failed. Do you think a drop army without Monsters might work? Lots of Warriors, Zoanthropes, Gaunts & some outflanking Genestealers. Perhaps it will need a T-fex or Bioplasma Fex for anti-land raider support.

I played a game today where the key players to the game were:

Tyranid Prime with Toxin Sacs, Bonesword/LW, ST.
He kept the Warriors at WS6 BS4 and the results from that were fantastic. The Warriors themselves were Toxin + Rending + Devos and Bonesword/LW + Devos. These are really great units.

The Deathleaper is always a good buy. Zoeys are fantastic and even Carnifexes were well worth it. Take 3 Dakkafexes with Regen in a Brood and they'll dish out so much punishment it's amazing. 36 shots at S6 with re-rolls to hit makes chop liver out of MEQ.

A Hive Tyrant is pretty good too. Give him Hive Commander, Old Adversary, Strangethorn (S6 Large Blast, Pinning.. amazing..), Regen and you're good to go. Always take him with Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips to make sure everything strikes last when engaging you.

Believe it or not.. Venomthropes are really good vs assaulty armies. I was playing SW today and I ran my Ragnar list into a bunch of Nids with Venomthropes.. Wolf Howled with 3 Grey Hunters packs + Ragnar's units and did minimal damage.. (and even lost a bunch to Dangerous Terrain). I got counter-charged next turn by Tyranid Warriors and boy did it get ugly. A complete reversal to how things were supposed to go. Even taking 2 of the Venoms for 110 points total covers a TON of space on the battle field. Six inches means you only have to touch a unit and it'll give it the 5+ cover, the defensive grenades and the dangerous terrain test to all assaulters. With a 2" coherency, you can literally spread it across a 14" zone of can't touch this. I strongly suggest you guys look into this unit.

Shep while I enjoy your batreps I think it's a bit soon to define a core. I mean there are a lot of other good players out there as well as yourself. I am going in the direction of all reserve but I want to hear what other people have to say.

G

Hey Shep - Did you try out Screamer-Killers? I ask because Ill only field one Tyrannofex - Im using the Hierodule model. For the second Fex - I was going to use Screamer Killers in a pod as a substitute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shep - for that Hormagaunt list....

How about this:

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
Venomthrope
Prime

265 points cheaper than the Swarmlord plus guard - the Thrope gives the Fexes cover saves. The Prime gives 3 T5 ablative wounds to them as well.

With the 265 points - add a unit of Zoanthropes for some added Synapse. 85 points left over to plus up the troop slots. Or just toss in the 3rd Tyrannofex....

Adding more chances to the Vehicle damage table may make that Hormagaunt list more reliable....

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get the amount of games in with the Nidz, I would have liked. I only got 2 (well 2 and a half, but I made so many mistakes in a game I reracked half way through).

I will say one thing. Space Wolves own your mom when it comes to Tyranids. I don't know if Shep had the opportunity to play against a competitive Space Wolves list yet but, they are definitely the army that is giving me fits right now. I played a game against them yesterday and took plenty of pictures for a Batrep which I plan to have posted tonight.

Overall, I am happy with my current list, it does have some weaknesses, but works well in my local competitive environment.

In keeping with the tradition of this thread, I will do a unit by unit breakdown.

Here is my current list:

Hive Tyrant with old adversay, hive commander, paroxysm and life leech, stranglethorn cannon, lash whip and bonesword, 2+ armor = 275
3x zoanthropes in a pod = 220
Deathleaper = 140
10 termagants = 50
tervigon with catalyst, crushing claws, toxin sacs and adrenal glands = 220
9 Genestealers = 126
9 Genestealers = 126
9 Genestealers = 126
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in a pod = 225
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma. Frag in a pod = 225
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon = 265

1. Hive Tyrant - Don't beat yourself up with this Shep, I believe he is still a strong choice. The 2+ save is huge for this guy, and I think his preferred enemy skill is better then the Swarmlord. The Stranglehorn cannon is still a little meh, but I honestly can't think of a better upgrade, as leaving him with just Scything Talons seems a waste. Both games he may have shot it twice and it did very little. But until I get more test games in, he will stay. Seriously, the 2+ save was the only thing keeping him alive and in game against the Wolves, his downfall though was a bad roll on the initiative test from a Jaws of the World Wolf. His reserves ability is a life saver as well, though the Swarmlord get that anyway.

2. Zoenthropes - I like them in a Pod. I was able to surgically strike them each game. I had trouble with my actual penetration rolls, but they work fine. And I am finding them, plus a Tyrannofex, plus Carnifexes in a Pod to be all the anti-tank I need.

3. Deathleaper - Really tricky to use, he dies way to easily, but then again I may still be doing stupid things with it. I thought about him going back in reserve against the space wolves, but kept him in to mess up difficult terrain rolls when grabbing objectives was an issue, didn't stop a lone wolf from having his way with the Deathleaper though. His reduction of leadership is still the only reason you take him, but having my space wolf opponent have shadow of the warp and the deathleaper reducing the Rune Priest to leadership to 8 and still the Rune Priest being able to cast JofWW not once but twice, taking out a Tyrannofex and the Hive Tyrant (over 600 points) by turn three hurts, and hurts badly.

4. Termagaunts and Tervigon - One game I generated 33 Gaunts across 3 units. Second game she made 5 and complained to me about not doing enough around the house. I fell in love with Crushing Claws on her, thank you for that Shep. I agree, with Shep, It's necessary to have a good sized Termagaunt unit on the table by turn one, especially in Dawn of War. I made a mistake with her and didn't set up my screen properly, but the one unit of 10 Gaunt counter attacked the Logan lead Terminator squad and wiped out the Terminators on sheer number of wounds, it was fantastic. Logan eventually won the combat, but only had a single wound left.

5. Genestealers - still love them, they add a much needed CC element to my force I am finding. Their success or failure all depends in what you do with them during set up. In the my mission againt the guard in Dawn of War, I opted for them to just come in via Reserves, they where able to get in under my gaunt screen and contest hold objectives while assaulting tanks trying to get the drop on me. Tell you what, Genestealers with FNP makes Banewolfs a sad panda.

6. Carnifex - Basically, now that I look at these as suicide units, they have preformed much better for me. Against the wolfs they single handily shut down the Long Fangs firepower, which is huge against that army. Againt the Guard, they where able to tie up the flank with the most crazy on it. I still like them for what they do. Show up, drop a respectable amount of firepower, pray to live, and start taking out tanks.

7. Tyrannofex - I still like him, but he preformed horribly these past two games. Against the IG, over 6 turn he didn't hit once and against the wolves he died on turn two to JofWW. He is in for the time being, though.


So far I am happy with my performance. Considering I have played maybe 5 (?) games with the codex and only two with my current list, I think having two close draws in not necessarily bad. Both games would still have been draws if they ended on turn five, when you take into account this against an IG list that was tailored to fight against regular Adepticon winners, and a Space Wolf list that won 4 RTTs in a row, that's not bad.

The only change in my list I am contemplating is possible dropping one ot two Genestealer units and upping the Termagaunst to 20, and taking a unit of 20 Hormagaunts.

I am finding our only real answer to those crazy assault units is Gaunts. Even the Swarmlord is iffy at best, I have seen him fall to many times to Nob squads, Wolf Guard, etc. in others playtesting to consider him an option. He only has 5 attacks, that makes him "ok" against thunderhammer terminators. Problem when he comes across Powerklaw nobs in a Battle Wagon, they have plenty of ablative guys to take his hits, and then they throw 20+ powerclaw attacks at him. Logan Terminators are hard because, you are either putting our attacks at Logan and the Terminators are killing you or vice versa.

However, you take that same super unit and you put 10, 20 gaunts on them with at least Adrenal glands, and you are just forcing so many wounds on them it's not even funny. Even a regular Hive Tyrant can counter assault those units after you dragged half of them down by shear weight of bodies.

Just what I have been finding.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shep while I enjoy your batreps I think it's a bit soon to define a core. I mean there are a lot of other good players out there as well as yourself. I am going in the direction of all reserve but I want to hear what other people have to say.

Absolutely, That's just my core for now. In sharing this stuff with you guys, I'm not trying to come off cocky. I have more faith in Robin's codex writing than I do in my list building. But I haven't been able to get anything with T4 working and the trygons haven't had a single game where I was glad I fielded them. I am counting on other people finding list combos that work, and then stealing those ideas. But until that happens, I need the no-brainer anti-tank shooting, and i'll use the easy-mode method of protecting that shooting from assault.

As soon as you or anyone else breaks mech with something other than t-fexes, zoanthropes or hive guard please let me know right away. I have been buying all sorts of nid models and i really want to make them all work.

Mahu wrote:I am finding our only real answer to those crazy assault units is Gaunts. Even the Swarmlord is iffy at best, I have seen him fall to many times to Nob squads, Wolf Guard, etc. in others playtesting to consider him an option. He only has 5 attacks, that makes him "ok" against thunderhammer terminators. Problem when he comes across Powerklaw nobs in a Battle Wagon, they have plenty of ablative guys to take his hits, and then they throw 20+ powerclaw attacks at him. Logan Terminators are hard because, you are either putting our attacks at Logan and the Terminators are killing you or vice versa.

If you put paroxysm on your target, and give yourself preferred enemy, then he may only have 5 attacks, but that is likely 4 or 5 models removed. In the case of the nobs, every nob he touches is dead. The 5+ invuln goes to crap with his bonesabres, and he instant deaths each one he wounds. They need 5s to hit him, even with a waaagh banner, and he'll cut half of those power klaws with blade parry. If there is an 800 point fresh nob biker unit that you haven't even started working on yet, then i ould hope that it would beat the swarmlord. since it costs almost triple what you paid for him. As long as any kind of hormagaunt is available you can pin some power klaws in place with charges, and then the swarmlord will be taking even less attacks.

The terminators shouldn't really be killing you in the logan set up, because you should have probably B2Bed them with some scraps like hormagaunts. Then if logan steps to you one on one, you put him to sleep maybe take a fearless wound on your hormas (or you gave them furious charge and just straight up won combat).

I'm now contemplating a picket screen on that swarmlord hormagaunt list I posted. either a 10 man hormagaunt unit or a ripper swarm. Something that will explode when charged, so that the huge hormagaunt unit can benefit from furious charge and so i can maneuver swarmlord so that he can base someone. If you have a 25 man hormie unit, and it gets charged, it is possible after defender reactions and pile-in's that the swarmlord won't have an open space to join the combat. that's dangerous.

The only reason I'm contemplating ripper swarms for this duty is that they have the lowest wound per point breakdown. Flamers are a wash, they take double wounds but have so much fewer models on so much bigger bases, instant death is slightly a problem, but hurricane bolters don't really clear them out as fast as say a 20 man termagant unit. Half as fast in fact.

Much more later, for now gotta get back to work

What I'd like you to comment on is whether you think this (the list you played)...

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
3x zoanthropes
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
30x termagants
30x termagants

...is a good all around tournament list, and whether you rate its chances of actually doing well? I like the list a lot, but can it beat any other types of armies than the ones you tested it against? I've said this in this very same thread before, but how does the above list deal with fast moving assault units that will be in close combat with something from turn 2 onwards, like TWC or Nob Bikers? What about Chaos Daemons, etc? I can't really see anything in the army that won't just vaporise in a single turn in close combat, and Nids don't have the benefit of being able to hide inside cheap transports for the first assault phase.

This whole thread is about experiences, and I thank you Shep for playtesting the crap out of this codex. I very much appreciate your findings.

Like I said, I think you should at least proxy a Space Wolf army to playtest against as I think they are the one codex we will have the most trouble with, and I will have a Batrep up tonight for your reading.

Jaws is a killer, and you will notice the lack of a Deathleaper almost immediately.

Here is my next test list, see how this one fairs:


Hive Tyrant w/ Bonesword-Lashwhip, Stranglehorn Cannon, Old Adversary, Hive Commander, 2+ Save, Life Leech, Paroxysm = 280
3 Zoenthropes in a Pod = 220
Deathleaper = 140
20 Termagaunts = 100
Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin = 200
20 Hormagaunts w/ Toxin = 160
9 Genestealers w/ Toxin = 153
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in Pod = 225
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in Pod = 225
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regenerate = 295

Basically I went from 10 gaunts in my initial screen to 40. I pushed myself to put toxin on the Hormagaunts though my instinct it to keep them cheap. I put regeneration on the Tyrannofex because I did some test rolls in my first game, and he would have goten back 4 wounds if he actually had regeneration. So that may be one of those YMMV things. I can still outflank with two units if the need calls for it. And I have 2+ save Hive Tyrant and Tyrannofex to sheild the Tervigon.

Look for my report tonight, I made a few mistakes, but you will see what I am up against.

Mahu wrote:This whole thread is about experiences, and I thank you Shep for playtesting the crap out of this codex. I very much appreciate your findings.

Like I said, I think you should at least proxy a Space Wolf army to playtest against as I think they are the one codex we will have the most trouble with, and I will have a Batrep up tonight for your reading.

Jaws is a killer, and you will notice the lack of a Deathleaper almost immediately.

Here is my next test list, see how this one fairs:


Hive Tyrant w/ Bonesword-Lashwhip, Stranglehorn Cannon, Old Adversary, Hive Commander, 2+ Save, Life Leech, Paroxysm = 280
3 Zoenthropes in a Pod = 220
Deathleaper = 140
20 Termagaunts = 100
Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin = 200
20 Hormagaunts w/ Toxin = 160
9 Genestealers w/ Toxin = 153
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in Pod = 225
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in Pod = 225
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regenerate = 295

Basically I went from 10 gaunts in my initial screen to 40. I pushed myself to put toxin on the Hormagaunts though my instinct it to keep them cheap. I put regeneration on the Tyrannofex because I did some test rolls in my first game, and he would have goten back 4 wounds if he actually had regeneration. So that may be one of those YMMV things. I can still outflank with two units if the need calls for it. And I have 2+ save Hive Tyrant and Tyrannofex to sheild the Tervigon.

Look for my report tonight, I made a few mistakes, but you will see what I am up against.

I think Toxin on the little guys is essential, almost a must buy. The Termagaunts get it from daddy, but the hormogaunts definately need it. Wounding on 4+s drastically changes their output versus MEQs and TEQs.

Therion wrote:What I'd like you to comment on is whether you think this (the list you played)...

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
3x zoanthropes
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
30x termagants
30x termagants

...is a good all around tournament list, and whether you rate its chances of actually doing well? I like the list a lot, but can it beat any other types of armies than the ones you tested it against? I've said this in this very same thread before, but how does the above list deal with fast moving assault units that will be in close combat with something from turn 2 onwards, like TWC or Nob Bikers? What about Chaos Daemons, etc? I can't really see anything in the army that won't just vaporise in a single turn in close combat, and Nids don't have the benefit of being able to hide inside cheap transports for the first assault phase.

Absolutely, the worst thing about it for a tourney is getting a good play speed down with it. The tervigon/gant engine is fantastically resilient. I haven't lined it up across from nob bikers yet, but I'm sure they don't like getting shot by hive guard and t-fexes, and they'll get worn out by gants. T-fexes are fun to shoot at TWC. Chaos demons seem like they are in trouble, their infantry assaulters won't match up well with supergants, but bloodcrushers would probably do well... That's why I'd like a swarmlord, possibly.

I lost with my most tuned IG list (tuned post nid release with the fleet officer) in a spearhead seize ground to it. And a double land raider list lost in a capture and control with the nid army not losing a single MC. It might go down differrently in another game. But were I fully painted with that list, i wouldn't hesitate to take it to a gt. Any tweaks I need to make would be balanced out by my opponents lack of experience in dealing with tervigons.

Mahu wrote:Look for my report tonight, I made a few mistakes, but you will see what I am up against.

Sweet. Looking forward to it.

If anyone has pulled it off yet, let me know how a unit of toxic gaunts getting furious charge from a Tervigon fare against enemy units that have been skill bombed by a Hive Tyrant. Sounds like it could turn what is normally easy meat into a nasty assault shield against the hardest of non-vehicle assaulters.

Shep wrote:
Check out the "choppy" nid army.

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
swarmlord
2x tyrant guard
7x genestealers with toxin sacs
25x hormagaunts with toxin sacs
25x hormagaunts with toxin sacs

Isn't this dangerously low on synapse? Granted you have the guard to go with the swarmlord and the horms have feed. Maybe I'm not fully adjusted to the new codex but lack of synapse worries me in a list like this.

Railguns wrote:If anyone has pulled it off yet, let me know how a unit of toxic gaunts getting furious charge from a Tervigon fare against enemy units that have been skill bombed by a Hive Tyrant. Sounds like it could turn what is normally easy meat into a nasty assault shield against the hardest of non-vehicle assaulters.

Gaunts buffed by a nearby Old Adversary Tyrant and a Tervigon are ridiciliously hard to assault effectively. My local opponent runs 23 gaunt screens and it works out to roughly 34.5 hits and 17.25 wounds at I5 before saves against T5+. Against T4 or lower, the number of wounds jumps up to 25.875. And this is without a successful use of paraoxysm on the target. Even diversified Thunderwolves tend to drop quickly when they charge into the gaunts because the lanes for the MCs were blocked. ~5 to 6 wounds after saves against toughness 5 is nothing to sneeze at. It only gets worse if a Venomthrope is nearby. It seems to me that the most dangerous Nid lists will feature a little bit of everything so that even the lowliest Nid becomes a force to be reckoned with.

Synapse doesn't have a such a bad effect in the Dex, the only problem is that you don't reaaly have control of your troops. Some fire and move to cover, and other get the Rage USR IIRC.

Shep do you think it would be feasible to pull elements from both of the different list types you've posted and put them together in one list? I'm asking becuse the more I fool with the book the more I seem to be migrating towards something that looks like it is a mix between the Hormagant rush and the Tervigon farm. It looks like this:

Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
20x Hormagants: Toxin Sacs
30x Termagants
Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

I might be seeing this incorrectly but I'm getting the stable core of the Tervigon/Supergaunts as well as the damage capacity of Swarmlord and Hormagants. I've also got the important AT stuff in there. I guess what I'm asking is if it is crucial to have 2 Tervigons in there to hold down the center, or if we can get by with 1 and some other goodies?

Caffran9 wrote:Shep do you think it would be feasible to pull elements from both of the different list types you've posted and put them together in one list? I'm asking becuse the more I fool with the book the more I seem to be migrating towards something that looks like it is a mix between the Hormagant rush and the Tervigon farm. It looks like this:

Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
20x Hormagants: Toxin Sacs
30x Termagants
Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

I might be seeing this incorrectly but I'm getting the stable core of the Tervigon/Supergaunts as well as the damage capacity of Swarmlord and Hormagants. I've also got the important AT stuff in there. I guess what I'm asking is if it is crucial to have 2 Tervigons in there to hold down the center, or if we can get by with 1 and some other goodies?

Looks good. Just about anything that can highlight the nid psychic power synergy will be a great way to spend the remaining points that you didn't spend on hive guard and tyrannofexes. In fact, in some ways, splitting it like that is awesome, because you can preferred enemy the termagants before they get charged, and you can catalyst swarmlord for any shooting he may take prior to assaulting.

edit: actually, list stolen... I'm going to play with that next game. It looks really good and fun. Screen hormas with termas, so that terms counter charge and then horms furious charge.

Too bad there isn't an outflanker in it to take advantage of Swarmlord's rerolls or his +1 to reserves.

Bloodthirster wrote:Synapse doesn't have a such a bad effect in the Dex, the only problem is that you don't reaaly have control of your troops. Some fire and move to cover, and other get the Rage USR IIRC.

It's probably good policy to place objectives in or very near area terrain when possible. That way Lurkers like Termagants can just sit tight if out of synapse.

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

Do NOT make babies just because you can. You need to have the threat of a fresh unit ready for an emergency situation.

Yup, the fact that you want them close to your Tervigon, and they can pop, move, shoot, assault, it all adds up to hiding them inside mommy until they're needed to come rushing out. Only exception I can see is if the mommy is looking like dying next turn (and it's objectives), in which case you just want to get them out there and figure out what to do with them later.

How easy/hard do you find it to keep the Gants and Tervigons working together? That 6" range is actually pretty pitiful, and it's such a huge advantage to have. It seems like they could Counter Charge right out of 6", and lose their Poison. It just seems problematic to both block assaults and still stay in 6". Does wrapping around the back of the Terv with the unit help keep some of the models in? Do you find yourself having to run the Terv when going on offense with the blob?

Do you see a case for Regen on the Tervs? How about on the T-Fex? With so many wounds, Regen seems like a winner.

JofWW not once but twice, taking out a Tyrannofex and the Hive Tyrant (over 600 points) by turn three hurts, and hurts badly.

Still think this is a total trash power, and a major hit to my admiration for Phil Kelly's work. Absolutely idiotic to include a power that so badly turns the game into rocks-paper-scissors for MCs. Worst single rule in the game.

Phryxis wrote:

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

Janthkin wrote:I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

Base-to-base Warriors sounds like it's asking for it from S8+ blasts, Gauntscreen or not. That said, when (if?) Tyrant Guard get their old 'behave exactly like a regular retinue' rule back in an errata (I can't believe it was Robin's intention, given their stated fluff, to have them carry Lash Whips for a Tyrant but keep their heads down whilst it gets Lascannoned to bits), giving two of them any amount of cover means that the whole unit gets a cover save even if the Tyrant is dancing a jig in the open and the only visible unit member, thanks to the 5ed 'half a unit's completely obscured, which means any unit member can be deaded but gets a 4+ cover save' rule.

Manticore is going to have a field day with grouped up multi-wound T3-6 creatures, as some will wound on 2's and others will simply suffer ID. Tis why I think people will start picking up on venomthropes more and more.

Thanks for the points Shep and Mahu.

Based on your playtesting, I will be fielding the following list:

Alpha Warrior (BS and LW, Death Spitter): Attached to HG (Should benefit from BS 5)

Alpha Warrior (BS and LW, Death Spitter): Attached to HG (Should benefit from BS 5)

3 Hive Guard

3 Hive Guard

3 Zoes

25 Hormies w/ TS

25 Termagants

Tervigon (Catalyst, TS, AG)

TFex (Capsul Cannon)

TFex (Capsul Cannon) or Maybe a second Tervigon

Should be right around 1850 pts

Three Waves with the mid nids sandwiched between guants and MC. If I play it right, the Alpha can stick with the HG granting them BS 5 and if the oportunity presents itself, they can jump into the guants as I close with the enemy, granting them BS 5 and WS 5. (Assuming that Apha grants his WS and BS to any nid?)

Shep wrote:

Every workable list concept we conceived by the end of the testing started with this 830 point core.

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon

Agree completely. I play Mech IG and partial Mech Space Wolves predominantly, and there's just no other combination of units that I think would really give me trouble. Getting an opposing army out of its Land Raiders and transports is key, and nothing does it as well as these two units.

Janthkin wrote:

Phryxis wrote:

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

I would agree that yes you can screen with warriors, I have done so many times in the past. However, this new codex has taken away the warriors resiliancy to blast weapons which is the biggest problem with this tactic. No more biker nob wound allocation combined with no more immunity to ID, means that pie templates and high strength pie templates are going to hurt such formations and dwindle your screen down pretty fast.

wyomingfox wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Phryxis wrote:

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

I would agree that yes you can screen with warriors, I have done so many times in the past. However, this new codex has taken away the warriors resiliancy to blast weapons which is the biggest problem with this tactic. No more biker nob wound allocation combined with no more immunity to ID, means that pie templates and high strength pie templates are going to hurt such formations and dwindle your screen down pretty fast.

As with everything else, it's not for use in every situation. But there are relatively few instant-death blasts out there (mostly in the IG, though Vindicators are popular), and I'd be willing to risk plasma cannon hits on screened Warriors.

No way Hive Commander stacks, you could potentially end up with +3 reserves with 2 tyrants and a Deathleaper. I do agree with Hive Commander and Pheromone Trail stacking as those are differently named rules.

It's interesting to read all the different forums and how back and forth Hive Guard are. Their seems to be no middle ground it's black and white for or against them. I will admit I am tempted to play test them now at least. I would think 6 hive guard + 3 Zoanthrope should be all the anti-tank a list would need. Are 4 more ST10 AP4 shots really worth 600 points?

Id be all for hive guard if they werent 20 fething dollars a model.

As it stands I think ill have 3 hive guard and 3 zoeys in my 2k list.

Yesthetruthhurts.com has a pretty good guide to converting Warriors into Hive Guard for, I presume, considerably less $$$ than the metal figs.

Direct link to post in question:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/phalanxs-hive-guard-conversion-tutorial.html

And I agree, it looks quite good.

EDIT: Oh there's 2; http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/steleks-conversion-hive-guard.html

Well, great. I sit down to write my battle report, but find all the photos blurry.

I should be able to get a ton of test games on Saturday with my new list, hopefully I get a real batrep from there.

I posted my version of the Tyrannofex, if anybody is interested:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/274975.page#1267267

Batrep it up here dude. I dont need pics, more something like what shep did.

"heres unit x, it sucks because of reason A, unit Y is great though for reason B etc"

Linkdead wrote:No way Hive Commander stacks, you could potentially end up with +3 reserves with 2 tyrants and a Deathleaper. I do agree with Hive Commander and Pheromone Trail stacking as those are differently named rules.

It's interesting to read all the different forums and how back and forth Hive Guard are. Their seems to be no middle ground it's black and white for or against them. I will admit I am tempted to play test them now at least. I would think 6 hive guard + 3 Zoanthrope should be all the anti-tank a list would need. Are 4 more ST10 AP4 shots really worth 600 points?

Except the Codex explicitly states two Hive Commanders stack their bonuses.

Great thread. I'm so following this one.

I get to try my Tyranids a week from this coming Saturday.

We do 2500's and my list is looking like this (based on models owned).

Tyrant with Tyrant Guard (not sure loadout yet)
Alpha Warrior with Talons/Claws/Regen (he'll lead a squad of Stealers)
Brood of 3 Lictors
DeathLeaper
20 Horms with Sacs
24 Spinegaunts (I know they apparently suck but I'm using them).
10 Stealers with Sacs led by the Alpha
14 Stealers with Tals/Sacs led by BL with Tals
4 Raveners with RC's
Brood of deuce carnifi with tals/bio/glands (screamer killers)
Mawloc (or possibly TP).

The only thing I'm not sure of is Mawloc or Prime? I want to eventually run all 3 variants of the Trygon but since this is my only one for a while what would be better in your opinions?

Opponents are mostly Mech Guard, SW's, 50/50 Mech/Infantry SM army or Speed Freaks style Orks.

Neither, your army has almost no ranged anti tank.

I mistook that for a 2,000 point list when I first saw it, and one that I'm pretty sure my 2,000 point list could take. I'd try again.

The closest I'll get to ranged anti-tank is running the Carns to have VC's and the HT.

I'm working with the models I have and can get my hands on.

I was wondering what a potential ArdBoys (2.5k) Fex spam (9 fexes) would look like. Any of you awesome Nid players out there up to the challenge of drawing up a potential list?

It would probably look bad? IMO in 2500 points you should probably be running 3 Tyrannofexes.

2500 pts... I want to run Nine Carnifexes!

Aduro wrote:2500 pts... I want to run Nine Carnifexes!

Target Saturation; 9 Screamer Killers = 1440 points.
If you ran that with the Tervigon farm (~ 500 points)
You can probably run 1x3 HiveGuard 1x2 HiveGuard, DeathLeaper and another Tervigon.

That's 54 T6 wounds rushing your Guard tankline.

I'm pretty sure you can catalyst those Screamer Killers; and let the supergants clean up whatever is left over.

Batrep it up here dude. I dont need pics, more something like what shep did.

"heres unit x, it sucks because of reason A, unit Y is great though for reason B etc"

OK, I will post the pictures anyways, the battle report is rough to begin with.

Tyrant with Tyrant Guard (not sure loadout yet)
Alpha Warrior with Talons/Claws/Regen (he'll lead a squad of Stealers)
Brood of 3 Lictors
DeathLeaper
20 Horms with Sacs
24 Spinegaunts (I know they apparently suck but I'm using them).
10 Stealers with Sacs led by the Alpha
14 Stealers with Tals/Sacs led by BL with Tals
4 Raveners with RC's
Brood of deuce carnifi with tals/bio/glands (screamer killers)
Mawloc (or possibly TP).

At 2500, there is almost no reason to not go with the basic core of 2 units of 20 Termagaunts, 2 Tervigon with full upgrades, and 2 Tyrannofexes.

I was wondering what a potential ArdBoys (2.5k) Fex spam (9 fexes) would look like. Any of you awesome Nid players out there up to the challenge of drawing up a potential list?

Fex Spam is hard to do. The best you can do is take Carnifexes with Heavy Venom Cannons. 9 of those without at other upgrades are 1665. Better to just apply the principles of good tyranid list building and add things you have points for, like a second Tyrant.

Fateweaver wrote:Great thread. I'm so following this one.

The only thing I'm not sure of is Mawloc or Prime? I want to eventually run all 3 variants of the Trygon but since this is my only one for a while what would be better in your opinions?

Opponents are mostly Mech Guard, SW's, 50/50 Mech/Infantry SM army or Speed Freaks style Orks.

I would suggest magnetizing the options; Tail, jaw, mandibles, chest piece and back fealers. This way you are not locked into just one load out.

@Menelker Did you do or could you do a tutorial on how you magnitized the jaw?

The Battle Report is up!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275038.page#1268431

Enjoy

wyomingfox wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Phryxis wrote:

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

I would agree that yes you can screen with warriors, I have done so many times in the past. However, this new codex has taken away the warriors resiliancy to blast weapons which is the biggest problem with this tactic. No more biker nob wound allocation combined with no more immunity to ID, means that pie templates and high strength pie templates are going to hurt such formations and dwindle your screen down pretty fast.

To be fair, giving the Warriors a big gun and an Alpha leading them can add a bit of wound stacking and S8 soaking potential.

Though on a flat table, the 'pretend that interestingly-posed models are posed normally for their race when checking LOS' rule could make it very difficult to consistently use them as a screen, especially with elevated enemy shooting and clicking turn clocks in tourneys.

wyomingfox wrote:(snip)

Three Waves with the mid nids sandwiched between guants and MC. If I play it right, the Alpha can stick with the HG granting them BS 5 and if the oportunity presents itself, they can jump into the guants as I close with the enemy, granting them BS 5 and WS 5. (Assuming that Apha grants his WS and BS to any nid?)

No, it only works for Warriors. In fact, the wording of it means that RAW doesn't let him do it in a Shrike (Winged Warriors) unit... >.<

I don't think it is such a terrible thing to assume that three hive guard, Warrior, or Zoenthrope can provide a cover save to Carnifex and other similarly sized models. No magic cylinder needed.

Besides, if pressed, you can always default to the -1 cover rule.

Ouch, that Wolf Priest was a pest!

I've been wanting to put together a small 1250 list for fun games using Doom of Malan'thia. We often play team games using a 1000 - 1250 points worth of models. I think there are a few ways to utilize Mr. Doom well and I really hope someone can come up with a decent small list for team play or just a small game.

Mr. Doom seems to work best with a Landing Spore of course. You could also use Tunneling Rippers - what? Well, let there be scatter on your shot. Let it scatter into your own rippers for twice the wounds. Sneaky but legal.I also like the Broodlord and Stealers in Pod - Yes, I would take a pod and on my opponents turn that aura is still working and then pumping my Doom.Then of course there is the Deathleape.

So there are options but how do you succesfully mesh them at 1250 or 1000 points? I don't want an army that relies on one trick to win even at low point levels. Has anyone tested this type of list out?

Menelker wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Great thread. I'm so following this one.

The only thing I'm not sure of is Mawloc or Prime? I want to eventually run all 3 variants of the Trygon but since this is my only one for a while what would be better in your opinions?

Opponents are mostly Mech Guard, SW's, 50/50 Mech/Infantry SM army or Speed Freaks style Orks.

I would suggest magnetizing the options; Tail, jaw, mandibles, chest piece and back fealers. This way you are not locked into just one load out.

Im going to have a trygon and mawlok in my 1500, and upgrade the mawlok to a trygon in 2k. Im just going to build one as each, and tell anyone who complains about it to feth off. If both giant snake things are trygons its not really a wysiwyg issue.

Sexy report Mahu. I never quite realized how broken jaws was. The old nidzilla with 8 MCs+ infantry it wasnt hateful against, but now with the much more expensive bugs jaws really sticks the long dick of the law up the backside of nid players.

What are the general thoughts here on trygon primes/mawloks with regen?

I realize I'm low on anti-tank but even at 2500 I face normally just a single LR (which so long as I can shake or stun it I'm not too worried about) and like 2-3 Rhino squads and a predator.

In 4th my Lictors were always predator hunters, LRC shooting isn't that scary unless I'm super close (which if it's moving like it should be has greatly diminished firepower and with the exception of my gaunts and spinegants the rhino cargo is not that worrisome to my Tyranids.

I'll eventually get up to Apoc size (for us that is 9k+) and my next purchase will be some Hive Guard for popping rhinos early.

I'm going to try the VC on the Tyrant and see how well it does.

I'll post my results of my game up on the 31st and give a break down of how things performed for me. I realize the army isn't optimal but like with any new codex things change (I also don't have a way to proxy anything or counts as without trying to proxy SM's for nids and that's just wrong).

felixcat wrote:
I've been wanting to put together a small 1250 list for fun games using Doom of Malan'thia. We often play team games using a 1000 - 1250 points worth of models. I think there are a few ways to utilize Mr. Doom well and I really hope someone can come up with a decent small list for team play or just a small game.

Mr. Doom seems to work best with a Landing Spore of course. You could also use Tunneling Rippers - what? Well, let there be scatter on your shot. Let it scatter into your own rippers for twice the wounds. Sneaky but legal.I also like the Broodlord and Stealers in Pod - Yes, I would take a pod and on my opponents turn that aura is still working and then pumping my Doom.Then of course there is the Deathleape.

So there are options but how do you succesfully mesh them at 1250 or 1000 points? I don't want an army that relies on one trick to win even at low point levels. Has anyone tested this type of list out?

I'm also looking forward to trying out Doomie, my fleet devoured an Exodite World so we've got the perfect reason to have him knocking around. I mainly see him as being a potential dirty trick in Apocalypse or Planetstrike, where he won't be displacing other Elites. Might be interesting seeing what happens when he charges a Baneblade whilst charged up!

The Rippers trick is DIRTY, I love it - and don't forget your own Mycetic Pods are potential wound farms And good spot on the Broodlord trick - although, to be frank, poor old Doomie looks destined to die to Melta fire within two turns of arrival... just gotta hope for decent drain rolls sending everyone running to the hills :/

skipmcne wrote:

Aduro wrote:2500 pts... I want to run Nine Carnifexes!

Target Saturation; 9 Screamer Killers = 1440 points.
If you ran that with the Tervigon farm (~ 500 points)
You can probably run 1x3 HiveGuard 1x2 HiveGuard, DeathLeaper and another Tervigon.

That's 54 T6 wounds rushing your Guard tankline.

I'm pretty sure you can catalyst those Screamer Killers; and let the supergants clean up whatever is left over.

So I have until May to buy Nine Carnifexes and build two Tervigons....

Aduro wrote:

skipmcne wrote:

Aduro wrote:2500 pts... I want to run Nine Carnifexes!

Target Saturation; 9 Screamer Killers = 1440 points.
If you ran that with the Tervigon farm (~ 500 points)
You can probably run 1x3 HiveGuard 1x2 HiveGuard, DeathLeaper and another Tervigon.

That's 54 T6 wounds rushing your Guard tankline.

I'm pretty sure you can catalyst those Screamer Killers; and let the supergants clean up whatever is left over.

So I have until May to buy Nine Carnifexes and build two Tervigons....

Three; I stuck the third in the HQ slot.

HQ Tervigon Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst 205

Elite
DeathLeeaper (140)
HiveGuard x2 (100)
HiveGuard x2 (100)

Troop
10 gant (50)
10 gant (50)
Tervigon Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst 205
Tervigon Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst 205

HS
Screamer Killer x 3 480
Screamer Killer x 3 480
Screamer Killer x 3 480

2495

While I wasn't an inherent fan of Nidzilla, that would just be awesome to put down on the table.

skipmcne wrote:
Tervigon Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst 205
Tervigon Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst 205

Are they not 195 Points each?

Sorry, didn't notice there was a whole other page :p

lindsay40k wrote:No, it only works for Warriors. In fact, the wording of it means that RAW doesn't let him do it in a Shrike (Winged Warriors) unit... >.<

Thanks for the update . Guess that frees up some points to spend elsewhere.

2500pts seems like it'll be awkward for the new Nids book now that I think about it. If at 2000pts or less 2 Tyrannofexes are ideal (which it seems more and more like at this point :( ) then once it goes up to 2500pts you will likely need that third one to even hope to be competitive. You might need 9 Hive guard at that point too (oof). None of this helps solve the problem that is Jaws of the World Wolf either. At 2500pts maybe something like this:

Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guard
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
20x Hormagants: Toxin Sacs
30x Termagants
30x Termagants
Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

It just feels to bland and boring. I hate it. But you get those crucial Rupture Cannons against AV14 and the like, and then piles of HG to try and deal with the eleventybillionandone light-medium transports that people will like to bring at this year's 'Ard Boyz with the whole trend towards mech and stuff.

The 1850 games I played with a Tyrant, Deathleaper, 2x Zoans in pods, Gaunts + Tervigons, Raveners and Trygone drop list were total loses to Mech Guard and Mech Space Wolves.

Going to try a more traditional walk and shoot list like the old zilla lists and see how that goes.

Caffran9
I think you need the death leaper in there to not get smoked by Jaws and help your Catalyst go off.

I hate the way these new competitive nid armies are shaping up. Same old gak just with new models. Lots of hive guard, the new tyrannofex, and tervigons.

Looks like poop. Im not arguing its validity as a winning army. But its same old crap. I think im going to go with maximum trygons/mawloks and try sneaky reserve games.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I hate the way these new competitive nid armies are shaping up. Same old gak just with new models. Lots of hive guard, the new tyrannofex, and tervigons.

How dare everyone want to use the cool new big units! Booooo!!! That said, I finally sat down and did... Math ::shudder:: and wrote up a tentative army list for a standard 1750 pt tournament.

HQ
Alpha Warrior w/ Boneswords and Deathspitter 95 pts

Elites
2x Hive Guard 100 pts
2x Hive Guard 100 pts

Troops
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
18x Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs 160 pts


Fast Attack
20x Gargoyles w/ Toxin Sacs 140 pts


Heavy Support
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts


It functions mostly the same as my old `Nid army, swapping out my big Fexes for T-Fexes, Warriors as Gaunt babysitters for Tervigons, and my Tyrant for an Alpha Warrior. Instead of a Lictor I get 4 Hive Guard and 20 Gargoyles.

Swarmlord-280

2 tyrant guard-130
Lash whips

2 zoanthropes-120

Spore pod-40

2 hive guard-100

10 stealers-140

10 stealers-140

24 termagaunts-120

Trygon -235
Regenerate, adrenal glands

Mawlok-195
Regenerate

Theres my 1500 point army list. I figure itll provide enough variety in deployment options to deal with most threats.

Aduro wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I hate the way these new competitive nid armies are shaping up. Same old gak just with new models. Lots of hive guard, the new tyrannofex, and tervigons.

How dare everyone want to use the cool new big units! Booooo!!! That said, I finally sat down and did... Math ::shudder:: and wrote up a tentative army list for a standard 1750 pt tournament.

HQ
Alpha Warrior w/ Boneswords and Deathspitter 95 pts

Elites
2x Hive Guard 100 pts
2x Hive Guard 100 pts

Troops
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
18x Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs 160 pts


Fast Attack
20x Gargoyles w/ Toxin Sacs 140 pts


Heavy Support
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts


It functions mostly the same as my old `Nid army, swapping out my big Fexes for T-Fexes, Warriors as Gaunt babysitters for Tervigons, and my Tyrant for an Alpha Warrior. Instead of a Lictor I get 4 Hive Guard and 20 Gargoyles.

That looks lean and mean. If I were to play Nids, that would be pretty close to my list. I would likely only take 10 Terms in each though and take more Horms, drop the Gargs and take more Hive. Anyways, looks good....

Aduro wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I hate the way these new competitive nid armies are shaping up. Same old gak just with new models. Lots of hive guard, the new tyrannofex, and tervigons.

How dare everyone want to use the cool new big units! Booooo!!! That said, I finally sat down and did... Math ::shudder:: and wrote up a tentative army list for a standard 1750 pt tournament.

HQ
Alpha Warrior w/ Boneswords and Deathspitter 95 pts

Elites
2x Hive Guard 100 pts
2x Hive Guard 100 pts

Troops
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
18x Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs 160 pts


Fast Attack
20x Gargoyles w/ Toxin Sacs 140 pts


Heavy Support
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts


It functions mostly the same as my old `Nid army, swapping out my big Fexes for T-Fexes, Warriors as Gaunt babysitters for Tervigons, and my Tyrant for an Alpha Warrior. Instead of a Lictor I get 4 Hive Guard and 20 Gargoyles.

I like the list as well, except I'm wondering why the Hormagaunts are there. Sure, they are extra killy, but I don't see them as necessary with an already strong termagant base. I'd suggest using more gants or more gargoyles.

The Hormagaunts and Gargoyles are in it for pretty much the same reason... I like the figs. If I were to trade em for anything, it would probably be Venomthropes, for the same reason, but I want to make it nice and swarmy.

Menelker wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Great thread. I'm so following this one.

The only thing I'm not sure of is Mawloc or Prime? I want to eventually run all 3 variants of the Trygon but since this is my only one for a while what would be better in your opinions?

Opponents are mostly Mech Guard, SW's, 50/50 Mech/Infantry SM army or Speed Freaks style Orks.

I would suggest magnetizing the options; Tail, jaw, mandibles, chest piece and back fealers. This way you are not locked into just one load out.

Lovely Trygon.

Kirika wrote:The 1850 games I played with a Tyrant, Deathleaper, 2x Zoans in pods, Gaunts + Tervigons, Raveners and Trygone drop list were total loses to Mech Guard and Mech Space Wolves.

Going to try a more traditional walk and shoot list like the old zilla lists and see how that goes.

Caffran9
I think you need the death leaper in there to not get smoked by Jaws and help your Catalyst go off.

Deathleaper is in no way a reliable answer to Jaws for a couple of reasons. First sometimes you'll roll a 1 and they'll be largely unaffected. Even if you dock their LD by 2 it won't be the end of the world for them. Also at 2500pts you're probably going to run into like 2-3 Priests with Jaws if they decide to take it. Deathleaper can sometimes help to stop one of them, but not even in a real huge way. Unless you get that -3 to LD he won't be very effective against it. He is nice to help get Catalyst off though since you aren't nearly as likely to encounter multiple hoods as you are multiple Runic Weapons (which he does nothing against anyway).

Aduro wrote:The Hormagaunts and Gargoyles are in it for pretty much the same reason... I like the figs. If I were to trade em for anything, it would probably be Venomthropes, for the same reason, but I want to make it nice and swarmy.

Thats what I like to hear, I think you and me will get along just fine

Haven't tested Venomthropes out, but I like everything about them. I'll make them work!

I think deathleaper is


OH look, for a measily 140 points I can drop your leadership by a whopping 3 in a third of the games we play. In another third it will be a slight loss, and in the final third its laughable.
BUT WAIT THERES MORE
It can also show up, and stare at you from the trees, making you uncomfortable until joe with the flamer comes up and roasts it alive.

That's right, you better be careful what you say about him, he'll hear you and come after you.

@I grappled the shoggoth:

I think you are underestimating the deathleaper a little bit. Combined with shadow in the warp he makes psykers nigh useless (except eldar with runes). Remember that Wolf priests have LD9, not 10 like regular marines.

Also he has 3 wounds so it's not like 1 flamer is gonna toast him. And if he goes to ground after shooting his flesh hooks that's just fine...remove at the beginning of your next turn.

He is an opportunist. Take advantage of that unprotected firebase/transport/squad and hit them. If they fire back it's probably gonna take a lot to actually finish him off.

Rune priests are LD 10 I believe. And it only lasts while he is alive.

Not to mention 50% of the time any squad wanting to shoot him won't see him beyond 10.5" (night fight roll divided by 2).

Sure he has a 6" range on his hooks but bring him on in cover, shoot a target of opportunity with hooks and if you played him right he'll stick around until back up arrives.

It WHAT?!

Seriously, it goes away once he's dead? I'm DELIGHTED to hear that!

Really, I played a game with a guy who had his codex next to him the whole time and he was telling me it was LD9.

If you are worried about Deathleaper surviving put him right at back in area terrain. With his super night fight rules no-one outside of 18" has a chance to hit him...At all (well barrage weapons do).

Like I said, good luck killing him.

Maybe 20-30 orks or 5 thunderhammer termies will pop him.

Maybe 10 lootas or 5 HB devs but anyone putting him down where he can be shot like that deserves to lose him.

Fateweaver wrote:Like I said, good luck killing him.

Maybe 20-30 orks or 5 thunderhammer termies will pop him.

Maybe 10 lootas or 5 HB devs but anyone putting him down where he can be shot like that deserves to lose him.

This. Why choose to put him within charge range of all those shock troops? Except, say, to get them to wander in the opposite direction to where the main attack is coming from, rolling 1D6 for terrain and thus failing the charge, only for three Dakkafexes to drop pod in around them and kill a 250pt unit whilst Leaper buggers off and reappears next turn on top of those five Scouts with the Sniper Rifles.

Only one fex can take a pod, and then the dakkafexes themselves are hardly as cheap as they used to be. If you're spending ~740 points to kill a 250 point unit it's probably a gross misapplication of force.

Some of us would call it overkill. Or in the words of that guy from quake...HUMILIATION

The best way to pound your opponent is overkill.

You bring 200pts to fight 200pts you might lose 25% of that leaving you with 150 to fight the next 200pt unit you come across.

Hit someone with 400pts you might get down to 350pts to hit a second 200pt squad with bringing you down to 300 to hit a 3rd squad.

This is assuming of course both units are full strength. Why hit with "just enough" when you can hit with enough to make them cry?

It was like the Vikings/Cowboys game. Vikings could have ended the game 27-3 and still won but they had momentum and confidence and wanted to twist the dagger they had stuck Dallas with so they went for the TD and got it; not only won but humiliated the Cowboys.

I have now started thinking about the competitive lists that have been put up. How would they fare against footslogging orks with killa kans? It seems to me that there is far too much anti tank and not enough anti infantry in the lists. Of course knocking out the kans isn't the main problem, but getting rid of that many orks is.

The Alpha Warrior is BS4.

G

uhhhhhh charge them with gaunts?

"hi we hit on 4s with re-rolls and wound on 4's with re-rolls. Make 33 armour saves."

Poisoned Hormagaunts solve so many problems, it's crazy.

Lukus83 wrote:I have now started thinking about the competitive lists that have been put up. How would they fare against footslogging orks with killa kans? It seems to me that there is far too much anti tank and not enough anti infantry in the lists. Of course knocking out the kans isn't the main problem, but getting rid of that many orks is.

Supergants flat out annihilate units of Orks. If 30 Supergants charge into a unit of 30 orks, this is what happens:

Gants go first at I5.
60 attacks hitting on 4s (or 3s if the unit got hit with Paroxyism) and rerolling misses = 45 hits (on 4s) or 53 hits (on 3s)
Wound on 4s with rerolls to wound from poison = 33.5 wounds (on 4s) or 39 wounds (on 3s)
6+ saves on the orks = 28 dead Orks (on 4s) or 32.5 dead orks (on 3s).

Or how about 25 Hormagants with Toxin Sacs and Furious Charge:
75 attacks hitting on 4s (or 3s if Paroxyism) = 37.5 hits (on 4s) or 50 hits (on 3s)
Wounds on 4s rerolling wounds from poison = 28.125 wounds (on 4s) or 32.5 wounds (on 3s)
6+ saves on the Orks = 23 dead Orks (on 4s) or 27 dead orks (on 3s)

Also Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard = dead Nobz. Lots of them.

Hive Guard and Trannofexes can do decent damage to the Kan Walls on the way in as well. The danger is that surviving Kans/Dreadz butcher your Gants in combat, so you have to make sure they aren't able to charge your Gants.

When it comes to Orks, I'm much more scared of 5 Battlewagons full of goodies than I am of hordes/Kanwall. This is because my troops eat Ork Troops pretty easily, and with my MCs and Hiveguard I can deal with the Kand/Dreads when the gap closes as well.

I think you're making a rather large assumption that the gants will get the charge on the orks. With the Waagh!, the Orks are pretty good about dictating the first clash. Not to mention you're facing 18 blast markers and probably around 120-180 shots from the shootas, which I'm not sending at anything but your gants, cause silly rabbit, PKs are for MC.

Granted you can weather that fairly well with FNP, but it's still going to make a dent, and throw the mad dok into the leading squad of boyz for FNP of their own.

And why would I send a Nob squad anywhere near anything with a bone sword or strength 8+? That's what hidden PKs are for, while Nobz run rough shod over your Tervigons.

Now, yes, I think if gants get the charge they can put a world of hurt on a normal ork squad. But I'm just saying, it's a highly situational answer.

@Kroot Loops

They get counter attack. So what you just read happens if you charge them too. It's what makes them so gross.

And Hive Guard make a joke of your can wall (and outrange them).

Hmm. 180 Shoota shots? 60 hits, 40 wounds, 20 Feel No Pain roles, 20 dead Termagants. That's gotta hurt!

I would hope 3 squads of Boyz Shooting would wipe out a squad of Termagants. And that's not even for certain if you have cover in the equation.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kroot Loops

They get counter attack. So what you just read happens if you charge them too. It's what makes them so gross.

And Hive Guard make a joke of your can wall (and outrange them).

But with counter attack they do not get furious charge (as per the newly modified SW FAQ), which means they do not re-roll wounds (due to being str 3 versus T 4), which takes a lot of their punch away.

Hive guard are nasty, but the kans still have 4+ cover saves from the KFF, and i think they only out range them by 6"

Kroot Loops wrote:I think you're making a rather large assumption that the gants will get the charge on the orks. With the Waagh!, the Orks are pretty good about dictating the first clash. Not to mention you're facing 18 blast markers and probably around 120-180 shots from the shootas, which I'm not sending at anything but your gants, cause silly rabbit, PKs are for MC.
Now, yes, I think if gants get the charge they can put a world of hurt on a normal ork squad. But I'm just saying, it's a highly situational answer.

It all comes down to tactics and terrain. The Tervigon will be protected by a gaunt screen making it difficult for your Nobs to get through. With Counter-assault Gaunts will probably get the bonus attacks irrelevant of who actually charged. Orcs are only I2-3 so will be hitting second whoever charged. Now that Furious Charge does not work on Counter-Assault not getting the Poison reroll will hurt. I think the Orcs are actually better off staying in there deployment zone and shooting. They need to get the numbers down before they can charge.

Kroot Loops wrote:Hive guard are nasty, but the kans still have 4+ cover saves from the KFF, and i think they only out range them by 6"

Do they? They are not in base contact with it. I am not sure how these two rules interact...

A unit of Venomthropes could really screw up the Orks, and give Deathleaper something to do with himself after seeing his LD nerf go to waste. 1D6 difficult terrain, with 16% casualties on every charge before it hits and loss of bonus charge attacks... though by the way I read the RAW, def grenades don't deny FC bonuses.

Also, let's not forget that Waaagh or no Waaagh, Hormagaunts with MTC and super fleet are still more able to choose who charges first.

Edit: once the Trukks have been popped, like

Lyracian wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:Hive guard are nasty, but the kans still have 4+ cover saves from the KFF, and i think they only out range them by 6"

Do they? They are not in base contact with it. I am not sure how these two rules interact...

vehicles within 6" of the KFF get concealment, but not from something that the living amunition could fly around. Essentiallly it's like area terrain for vehicles. As a Tau player, I know Hive Guard are just a stronger form of the Smart Missile System for Tau, and they're nice, but they can't ignore things like KFF and Dpods

Hoping you don't mind me posting here Mahu but it's a good place for discussion. I played a game late last night but was to tired to put up a report. I noticed you said your friend had advised you to try Devourers on your Fex so i thought I would try that out.

Here's the list(1500pts)

HT ( Life Leech, Paroxysm, Old Adversy, Hive Commander, 2+ Save
TG x15
Tervigon (Catalyst, Adrenal, Toxin, Crushing Claws)
HG(Toxin) x20
Zoanthropes(Spod)x2
T'Fex(Rupture Cannon)
Fex( MC Devourers, Spod, Bio Plasma)
GS x10

So what are my thoughts after the first game? i think the whole army works best know when it works as a team, for example I put my Genestealers on my own and all though they destroyed and unit of trukk boys they don't really like a large unit of Shoota Boyz. if the Tervigon was near them i could off put FNP on them and allowed the TG to take bullets. The TG did brilliantly however destroying about 30 Orks between them (+ babies). The Tervigon was vital to keeping my Tyrant alive lets jus say tyrants don't like Lootas's. The T'Fex and Fex where the stars of the show with the Fex taking out about 2 trukks and a unit of Nobz and T'Fex taking out a BW. Sadly the zoanthropes failed me by not coming in until Turn 4, and then causing a single would or armour pen for the rest of the game. Spods are brilliant! They single handedly held up the Warboss and his nobs so he couldn't get to my Fex. In this moments my Tyrant, Fex and HG charged and lets say turned the tide. Game was Annhilation, deployment Dawn of War, he was cursed from the start when i destroyed his BW leaving his Nobs and WB stranded and obliterating his unit of Trukk Boys, coupling with some awful reserve rolls, allowed to cross the board unmolested. Final Score: Orks:6 Nids:11

So I lost 2 units of babies, my Spods, Zoanthropes and GS.

Devourers on Fex's are great Mahu, podding them at the back of Rhino's will mean you won't need HG! Try them out if you haven't already with that new list of yours. You'll be pleasently suprised

Lukus83 wrote:Really, I played a game with a guy who had his codex next to him the whole time and he was telling me it was LD9.

If you are worried about Deathleaper surviving put him right at back in area terrain. With his super night fight rules no-one outside of 18" has a chance to hit him...At all (well barrage weapons do).

Broadsides with Black Sun Filter. Tau Battle suits get a reroll. Marker light hits, followed by seeker missles. Marker light hits negating nightfighting rules for units firing.

How many Tau players take blacksun filters? And MLs on Deatherleaper instead of MCs... yes please!

It's nice to see people are finally start to realize the full power of the new Nids.

G

I think the answer to Ork horde is Biovore.

Genestealers with a broodlord worked well against orks last night, as long as they get the charge. Its tricky, but with infiltrate, fleet, and high Initiative they can usually slice through a boyz mob before taking too much damage. Adrenal glands help against them too, but it starts getting on the expensive side.

Gornall wrote:How many Tau players take blacksun filters?

I do on certain guys, namely units who can move and shoot their Markerlight/Railgun, and the two Fire Warrior Shas'uis who start on the board in Dawn of War. You'll also never see me field a Necron army without a Solar Pulse. I LOVE having that kind of Alpha Strike power in Dawn of War and other Night Fight missions, and pretty much every tournament always has at least one.

Good thing I don't face Tau so outside of 18" my DL is always invisible.

50% of the time he is invisible beyond 10.5".

Markerlights still need to be in 18". A re-roll doesn't help that much.

Darksun's aren't a reroll, they double the distance. Acute Senses is what lets you reroll, and all Tau suits have that in addition.

ED209 wrote:I think the answer to Ork horde is Biovore.

Actually it's fully upgraded hormagaunts. They wreck horde Orks obscenely well.

I don't know about 10 point Hormagaunts. Seems pricey for a T3 6+ save body.

But this is my point though. In these competitive lists we are seeing there are no hormagaunts. There are no biovores. It's all about anti-mech, and it leaves a whole lot of vulnerability to those tourney players who footslog en masse.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are a ton of reasons to get in that transport, but I think we are focussing so much on 1 thing that some of the other options have been pushed to the back and forgotten about.

I took ~20 Hormagaunts and Gargoyles in my list... Plus don't forget the T-Fex has some mean anti-Infantry guns even if he takes the Bio Cannon. A Str 5 Large Blast and a Str 5 Template, which can Both be fired In Addition to his 2 shot Str 10 gun. Throw in a Tervigon fueled Onslaught so he can fire those off after running to get into a better/closer position if he needs to, and that'll put the hurt down. Tervigons also have the 18" ranged Str 5 Large Blast weapon as well.

Aren't MCs only allowed to fire two weapons?

The Thorax Swarm weapons that the T-Fex has, and Tyrant can purchase, are specifically allowed to be fired in addition to their other weapons.

Aduro wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I hate the way these new competitive nid armies are shaping up. Same old gak just with new models. Lots of hive guard, the new tyrannofex, and tervigons.

How dare everyone want to use the cool new big units! Booooo!!! That said, I finally sat down and did... Math ::shudder:: and wrote up a tentative army list for a standard 1750 pt tournament.

HQ
Alpha Warrior w/ Boneswords and Deathspitter 95 pts

Elites
2x Hive Guard 100 pts
2x Hive Guard 100 pts

Troops
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
20x Termagaunts w/ 2 Stranglewebs 120 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
Tervigon w/ Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst and Onslaught 210 pts
18x Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs 160 pts


Fast Attack
20x Gargoyles w/ Toxin Sacs 140 pts


Heavy Support
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts
T-Fex w/ Bio Cannon 265 pts

Looks like a good list, however it lacks an answer to AV14. A simple cure is a unit of zoanthropes in a spore pod.

I'm looking at that right now, as there is a tournament next weekend, and I won't have any Hive Guard yet by then, but my Plasma Hatchers showed up in the mail today.

Linkdead wrote:

Looks like a good list, however it lacks an answer to AV14. A simple cure is a unit of zoanthropes in a spore pod.

The twin T-fex and cheap screening units are the answer to AV14. At 1750 it's unlikely you see more than one Land Raider*, and two Tfexi should be able to at least immobilize it before it can break all the little bug screens. Leman Russes can be eventually dealt with in close combat.

*not impossible, or even all that rare, but unless against GKs or certain deviant Chaos builds it's unlikely to face off against multiple Raiders in 1750.

What are the general thoughts and experiences on multiple trygons and or mawloks.

Is the prime upgrade worth it? I think regen is a must have personally.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:What are the general thoughts and experiences on multiple trygons and or mawloks.

Is the prime upgrade worth it? I think regen is a must have personally.

I have heard from most people that two Trygons are necessary, but Mawlocs can be fielded alone, but I am thinking that two or three mawlocs would really cause a lot of havoc in the backfield. Possibly causing a late game objective steal.

I had bad experiences with mawlocs. It went down something like this.

Pop up
kill 4 marines
charged by marines with PF plus assault squad with PF
lose combat
fail hit and run
next turn dead mawloc

Of course this only happened because my damned trygon didn't come on till turn 4. I think it has potential, but it needs support. I'm going to be trying out multiple trygons next week and see how I do. I like the idea of dropping a lot of dangerous units into the opponents army and messing them up before they hit your lines, which the mawloc could also do (though in my opinion he is for smaller games only).

Sneezypanda wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:What are the general thoughts and experiences on multiple trygons and or mawloks.

Is the prime upgrade worth it? I think regen is a must have personally.

I have heard from most people that two Trygons are necessary, but Mawlocs can be fielded alone, but I am thinking that two or three mawlocs would really cause a lot of havoc in the backfield. Possibly causing a late game objective steal.

My opinion is that no matter Trygon or Mawloc ,as long as you drop or move or flank or infiltrate some really mean units at the same time to his face, you will do fine.

I think it would be fun to pod in 20 Termagants and Outflank with the Tervigon momma... that way more little bugs actually survive.

sourclams wrote:

ED209 wrote:I think the answer to Ork horde is Biovore.

Actually it's fully upgraded hormagaunts. They wreck horde Orks obscenely well.

Could be tricky that you need to get the charge or the horma wont get the point back ,even you could get the charge other mob may join the fight next turn and hormas are not likely to win the battle without furious charge. for a 20 hormas unit with Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands (200pts) you could get 4 biovore(180pts) that fire from first turn and watch them suffer to walk the way to your fire base, sth. you dont get much as a nids player

Themeatically, not competitively, I like a burrowing and deep striking army. One of the problems seems to be that there is no way to properly stage a tyranid burrow list. If my troop choices become available before or at the same time my trygon comes into play, they're stuck coming on the board in the usual fashion.

Yeah... I'm not thrilled with the burrowing rule. I can't see how to make that work either. I guess it's geared more towards outflankers than anything. If only the HT allowed rerolls like Tiggy.

See, that is where my nid army personally suffered little. At 2500 I face a single LR, every other tank/transport is armor 10 in the ass or in the case of rhinos no higher than 11 so even devourers do wonders for my army.

Against IG I face maybe 2 LR's even at 2500. I do face a Manticore on occasion but against my nids I face the exterminator a lot. That is one nasty anti-nid tank although the problem with LR's is that if all you ever want to fire is the main cannon and nothing else you won't be moving it.

A stationary tank with no infantry support is a dead tank.

That is actually the biggest gripe of one of the IG players. His tanks got to shoot a lot more but he thinks the hitting on rear armor thing is BS. He hates moving his tanks because it cuts down shooting and he runs mech so it's not always possible to surround his tanks with bodies.