Great feedback yak!

After looking through the battle reports I see there were no missions that hurt a MSU style army such as marine razorback spam. In fact a few mjissions encouraged those types of lists. It's hard to beat an army of 16+ units without a standard killpoint mission.

DarthDiggler wrote:After looking through the battle reports I see there were no missions that hurt a MSU style army such as marine razorback spam. In fact a few mjissions encouraged those types of lists. It's hard to beat an army of 16+ units without a standard killpoint mission.

You may want to look harder.

Mission #1: Booby trapped objectives that cannot be held by an embarked unit. IE, get onto the objective and boom. If you have a 5 man unit, you could very well lose the whole thing. I lost a full troop choice (5 many wych squads) and Reece lost two - I don't know about anyone else out there.

Mission #5: Slaughter Style killpoints - Everyone ends up with mostly the same number of killpoints, and the percentage you kill of them is roughly what you ended up with. And given that in the FINAL GAME on the TOP TABLE....a small elite Chaos force beat an MSU Dark Eldar army....the tools are in the arsenal.

I railed in the previous pages here about mechanized spam and the fact that some missions rewarded it, but none really punished it. And honestly...its up to an opponent to punish an MSU player, not the TO. I know that I did. You know what a 5 man tac marine squad is to me? Something I don't need two wych squads to handle.

Mission one hurt 5+ save MSU, not marine MSU. That's not what I'm talking about and that doesn't hurt transport spam lists which is what I am talking about.

Slaughter KP might hurt transport spam lists. The rules as I have seen mention 1 kp per 100pts rounded down for certain units. Did this rounding down mean some units were worth zero kp in this mission? And if so then that mission does not affect transport spam lists since the basic razorback would be worth no kp.

How was it played Dash?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:
I railed in the previous pages here about mechanized spam and the fact that some missions rewarded it, but none really punished it. And honestly...its up to an opponent to punish an MSU player, not the TO. I know that I did. You know what a 5 man tac marine squad is to me? Something I don't need two wych squads to handle.

Vanilla razorback spam is indeed tough to play against, but it itself has a tought time in a standard kp mission. If the last mission excluded heavy bolter razorbacks from giving a kp, then they become Gods in this 5 game tourney. I'm just trying to figure out why I never see a razorback spam list work well in the Chicagoland area and more and more I think it is because we regularly have standard kp missions. If that's not the case, then I want some razorbacks.

Every unit was worth at least 1 killpoint. Non-troop units worth more than 100 points rounded up in killpoints. Anything that cost less than 100 points rounded up to one.

Also - I have to be honest here - straight killpoint missions may be a deterrent to average players taking an MSU heavy list, but Hulksmash (Brad Townsend) runs SW razorback spam anyway, and he won all 5 of his games. And he pretty much wins every other game he plays. Everywhere. =p You just need to beat your opponent senseless with overwhelming force, or outwit them, or table them...

Playing an MSU army in a killpoint mission doesn't mean you just lose; I lost my last game to David Fay 9 killpoints to 8, and it was completely my fault; we only got through 3 turns, probably in part because I was honestly far too drunk for my own good by that point - who can say what would have happened if the game had continued? I was shooting incredibly poorly - every single penetrate was a shaken or stun, and some of my glances got immobilize, weapon destroyed results, so that at the end, he still had rhinos alive that were weaponless, empty, immobilized because I couldn't finish them. Etc.

I certainly took a loss, David was a fantastic opponent, but do I think he beat me simply because I had more killpoints in my army? No - it was a combination of his generalship, mine, and the dice.

@Yak-
Thanks for the feedback. It is appreciated, especially with the level of clinical detail you have presented. We are running a 4 round mini GT at the Bunker in June and we plan on trying what will be our next year missions there. Hulk is going to work with us on the missions and I plan on incorperating your feedback when we all sit down.

@Dash-
You were so sloshed I was supprised you even made it to bottom of 3! And Fay is a great guy to play and a very shrewd general. The top five were all guys of amazing skill and sportsmanship, honestly.

No don't get me wrong. I'm not saying KP are a lose to MSU transports. I'm just wondering about the experiences of others that's all. I've seen a Worldeaters army that had 3 vehicles with long range guns and Berzerkers pull out a minor win against an all DE raider spam list. I know the game is played by people and dice are involved. I'm just asking questions about the conditions to get a better idea on how those armies played.

@yakface: that post should become an article on how to create balanced missions. It really would be a waste to only have that post here.

Phazael wrote:

@Dash-
You were so sloshed I was supprised you even made it to bottom of 3! And Fay is a great guy to play and a very shrewd general. The top five were all guys of amazing skill and sportsmanship, honestly.

I'm incredibly competitive - when I'm getting beaten, it upsets me - or at least influences my mood, as I know it does for many others. I actually had started getting sloshed because I thought I was about to face off against Brad, who I *know* can monkey-beat me, and I was at least going to be brazenly drunk for the beating so it hurt less.

I was overjoyed to not be paired up against him, but having had a good start on the drinking, just decided to continue until the bottle was empty. David, if you post here - have you ever beaten on someone who was as cheerful to get beaten on as I was? =p It was the booze.

I vaguely remember the game ending, and I was all surprised because we were only on turn 3...and Brad was like, "HOW ARE YOU NOT DONE YET?!?" We tallied up kill points and I had lost, and was going to get to drinking in earnest but the bottle was empty. I remember writing down my name and address, and getting stuff (which Hulksmash will put to good use) and I think I tried telling everyone that it was great to meet them when I came up to get my prizes, but I don't remember if anything coherent came out of my mouth or not.

Its fuzzy after that until we got to Medieval Times, where Brad and I (and our wives) had the Royalty package and front row seats to scream at the top of our lungs for the green knight. Who was awesome. Awesomesauce.

Sorry for rambling, was AWESOME to meet my idols. Hulksmash, Reecius, Blackmoor, Manimal, Yakface - call me easily impressed if you need to. =p

@Phazeal
Thanks, buddy! Everyone there was a cool guy and classy. I had a great time and I will for sure bring more of the SD crowd next time. Some of my buddies would have come if they had known that Dave and Geoff and I were going, but I went so last minute I didn't have time to rally the troops.

San Diego represented well though, going 1,2, and 4. If we had Shane and Pat we could be really kicking booty!

@Dash
It was good to meet you too, bortha. You were shithoused though in the last game! Haha, but you came 3,000 miles to kicked ass and you did. When I saw you matched up with Dave, I knew I had a chance to win it, because Dave is such a good player, but it was not meant to be.

I had a great weekend and look forward to next year. I think everyone else felt the same way.

Next year, with some open gaming, we can all hang out and shoot the bull after words.

It was nice to meet/play against you Dash.

Sorry that I was like a zombie on Saturday. I worked double shifts so I could take Friday off, and I had a long drive and no sleep the night before, so the first day I was tore up.

My armies weakness is Dark Eldar, and who knew that I keep on running into them? The army I am running has only lost twice, and it was both to DE. You can go years and not play them, and yet I keep on finding ways to lose to them.

The funny thing over the weekend was that I played against 3 people that I have never played against before, and 2 of them afterwords said that I was not as bad to play against as they have heard...um thanks?

Blackmoor -

Tiredness happens. And if I may speak candidly, the reputation that you have is that you score people very badly for sportsmanship, in trends that fly in the face of the scores your opponents get from other players. Thus at the end of our game, I wanted to know if you had a good game or not, because I was concerned about your reputation for scoring your opponents.

I enjoyed our game, you laughed at my jokes, you made a couple yourself, and we didn't have any rules issues.

Don't feel too bad, in some places I've got an unearned reputation that I have to fight against as well.

Looking forward to entering next year. Getting back into the tourney scene after so many years can only be easier with fellow Dakkaites.

Had a good time though.

@Yakface
That was an excellent post, I just read it and I have to say you need to sticky those point sin this forum.

Those are EXCELLENT, and clearly logical points that would be a great benefit to any TO. I completely agree with all of your points.

@Combatmedic
Did we meet, man? I don't remember meeting anyone with your handle.

I think yakface hit the nail on the head so I don't have much to add

The one thing I thought of is that the missions need to balance the value of going first vs going second. $th edition was the go-first edition, and 5th is often considered the go-second edition, but in my opinion the best missions make it a difficult tactical choice as to whether or not you want to go first. I may be wrong, but I felt I wanted to go first in every mission except maybe mission 1.

Objectives tend to favor going second, kill points/victory points going first, and three of the missions had the primary as a kill point variant. Unfortunately one of the two primary objective missions also favored going first.

To me this looks like it's the most successful Indy GT run this year. Thats a big accomplishment. Seems like there was a great crowd of gamers there.

: )

G

And then Blackmoor said to me, "Huh. You're a lot younger than I thought you would be."

And then Hulksmash said, "Well, you *do* sound like a grumpy old man on the internet."

It's the avatar. Even that cat looks like a grump old man

How old are you Dash?

Ozymandias wrote:How old are you Dash?

25% grey, but still have all my hair?

Yah but you never had much to begin with.

G

Dashofpepper wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:How old are you Dash?

25% grey, but still have all my hair?

Hardy har har.

So basically older than a bread box?

Yeah guys....you got me.

In reality, I'm 13.

Dashofpepper wrote:Yeah guys....you got me.

In reality, I'm 13.

AHA!! I KNEW IT!! WIFE = MOM, CAPT. MORGAN = APPLE JUICE, AND HE WENT TO SOCAL SLAUGHTER WHILE HIS MOM WENT TO DISNEY!!!1!

GIVE BACK THE GOLDEN TICKET, CHARLIE!!!

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Yeah guys....you got me.

In reality, I'm 13.

AHA!! I KNEW IT!! WIFE = MOM, CAPT. MORGAN = APPLE JUICE, AND HE WENT TO SOCAL SLAUGHTER WHILE HIS MOM WENT TO DISNEY!!!1!

GIVE BACK THE GOLDEN TICKET, CHARLIE!!!

Over my pimply hand you'll get that Golden ticket back!

Dashofpepper wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Yeah guys....you got me.

In reality, I'm 13.

AHA!! I KNEW IT!! WIFE = MOM, CAPT. MORGAN = APPLE JUICE, AND HE WENT TO SOCAL SLAUGHTER WHILE HIS MOM WENT TO DISNEY!!!1!

GIVE BACK THE GOLDEN TICKET, CHARLIE!!!

Over my pimply hand you'll get that Golden ticket back!

I'll catch you even if I have to lose 200 pounds so I can fit through the basement door! Mom'll help me!

Well, I'm definitely looking forward to next year's SoCal Slaughter in Space III!!! However, I believe they're merging it with the Fantasy Tourney for several obvious reasons...which means I'll have to make a choice between Fantasy which is my main game, or 40K which is my entertainment...


But I did promise Dawson (Game #5 opponent) that'd I bring a ZERO comp list next year as would he, so we could face off in Game #1 for a re-match! And perhaps next year I'll get the honor of facing Dave, Reece, Charlie, etc...

Are the missions online anywhere?

should be linked elsewhere in this thread, but it is 11 pages...I think this is the final version

http://www.scgwl.com/downloads/SIS10.pdf

@theDarkGeneral
I would love to get a game in! That list you brought was nasty, but Guard can handle it, especially with Inquis support.

If half of what I have heard about you is true, you would be a very challenging opponent.

And we all love a challenge so I am sure it would be a great game.

Man, I want a shot at the dark general too...but I'll be damned if I'll be able to find a way to make Tau comp any lower...

One thing I noticed, and I was surprised that no one has brought it up yet, but there were 0 Space Marine armies there.

I didn't notice that, actually. They have just been eclipsed by the new MEQ dexes which do everything just a little bit better.

Marines are still solid and easily capable of taking a tournament, but Wolves and BA just do it all better.

Only niche basic marines seem to have left is Vulkan, Pedro, and all biker lists. So unless you play one of those styles BA and SW have a lot more to offer

But good catch Blackmoor

But there was an unseemly amount of Chaos Space Marines...

Yeah there were,

6 chaos
5 IG
3 wolves
3 Dark Eldar
3 Blood Angels

Those were the most prevalent armies. Everything else was onsies and twosies.

Chaos was the most prevalent army, which was strange.

There were only two Ork players as well, which was weird, I always expect to see more of the Greenskins as they have such a solid book.

3 Dark Eldar armies out of....30 players?

10% of the players were playing Dark Eldar....bwah ha ha!!!

Reecius: Hmmmm...I always here such interesting things about myself...some are VERY true! I'm quite the jerk power gamer win at all costs guy! LMAO!!! It'll be a fun scrap!

If Bob says you are a good guy then I am sure you are.

Bob also says you are a really good player, so I am sure you are there as well!

We gotta remember that this was only a 30 man tournament, so any generalizations you want to make about the overall tournament scene need to be tempered by that fact.

I will say that it felt like a high percentage of players at this tournament were more of the 'tuned up' style of player who were bringing a tough list first and foremost with other army list considerations (theme, etc) being second. In tournaments with more players I think you tend to get a wider variety of people who are attending with different perspectives on a tournament experience, for example, those who choose their army based on theme first and then build the army after that.

And besides, people often want to play with the new hotness and for Marines, BAs and SWs are just that right now. I have no doubt that a good player could win a tournament using the SM codex and just because there weren't any players at this tournament doesn't suddenly mean the codex has been left in the dust by the BA and SW codices.

At least that's my take on it.

The Marine codex is still fantastic, but I think you can make the case for Wolves that they are mathematically superior to regular marines.

Player skill is more important, but I believe the Wolf "toolbox" so to speak, is superior.

BA's well the jury is still out. I have cooked up a few builds that I think have potential, but I would like to see what people do with them in the tournament scene.

Agreed, BA has yet to be determined. SW has an incredible Heavy Support option and is good all around. SM is still a good codex and has build options that differ from what SW and BA are currently bringing. I don't this SIS2 represented the larger "meta." 6 CSM and 3 DE armies out of 28 armies just means that those are the players that were able to make it those days, not that 18% of the players are playing CSM

No Space marines? I totally shouyld have went. Too bad I was moving into my house. Maybe next year!

asugradinwa wrote:No Space marines? I totally shouyld have went. Too bad I was moving into my house. Maybe next year!

I would have liked more space marines!

C'mon though - just because BA and SW are different chapters...they are STILL space marines.

Yes and no, no thunderfire cannons, outflanking land speeder storms, & twin linked melta in a 30 man field surprises me. compared to last year where I brought my Salamanders, George Mason won with pedro, and I played 2 other games against Space Marines.

Nice job on the best general Dash, you really played well in the wonky scenerios and tailored a list that exploited the lack of missions that took killpoints into account. MSU's for the win!

asugradinwa wrote:Yes and no, no thunderfire cannons, outflanking land speeder storms, & twin linked melta in a 30 man field surprises me. compared to last year where I brought my Salamanders, George Mason won with pedro, and I played 2 other games against Space Marines.

Nice job on the best general Dash, you really played well in the wonky scenerios and tailored a list that exploited the lack of missions that took killpoints into account. MSU's for the win!

Actually, the list wasn't built for this GT it was built to have the best possible chance against mechanized IG. This list is the same list that I use for every tournament and every event at the 2k level and never changes regardless of killpoints, missions or other factors.

Also, the list was built by the most awesome Hulksmash and handed to me. The army was actually also built and painted by Hulksmash and also handed to me. IE, Hulksmash is awesome.

Wow, I'm surprised about that I'd never take that list at 24 killpoints to any tournament that was running normal killpoints, but with only 1 mission out of 5 that had killpoints as a negitive factor for you (and 1 mission that was nearly auto win for you in regards to killpoints) I thought you tailored this list for the slaughter.

My only loss in Conquest Ragnarok was against Mech Eldar in a killpoints mission. Until the new codex gets released killpoints are the Dark Eldar's Achillies Heel.

Dark Eldar do very well in those missions.

That is why 3 of them showed up in a 30 man tournament, and at Adepticon they had 1 with 100+ players.

For what it's worth, having run pretty extensive 40k leagues and tracked records over time in terms of kill point wins/losses vs. # of kill points in armies ... good players with huge #'s of kill points don't tend to lose kill point missions against significantly lower KP armies anyway ... Dash's statement isn't that strange to my ears.

While I agree that a good general can make due with a small gap in killpoints having 10 open topped AR 10 vehicles usually means doom when playing a killpoint game.

Yeah, I'm not trying to make qualitative statements or say that it's "fixed" one way or another ... just basing it off my experience and the stats I've collected over time to back it up. I'm just saying it to back up that he probably didn't tailor his DE to the tournament format.