IvanTih wrote:I know all that(a ton of novels supports your point,I base my opinion on the fluff),but wasn't it stated by GW that game mechanics aren't actual repretentation of the 40k capabilities(and I know that the flak armor would laugh at the modern small arms)?

They're a rough approximation. Inquisitor and (more recently) Dark Heresy are a less rough approximation.

Melissia wrote:

IvanTih wrote:I know all that(a ton of novels supports your point,I base my opinion on the fluff),but wasn't it stated by GW that game mechanics aren't actual repretentation of the 40k capabilities(and I know that the flak armor would laugh at the modern small arms)?

They're a rough approximation. Inquisitor and (more recently) Dark Heresy are a less rough approximation.

Thanks for clarifying that Melissia.

Varrick wrote:

Oh look at that; the spit take put iced tea all over my monitor.

So whats this about modern day infantry being better trained and disciplined compared to a notable Imperial Guard regiment? Lets ignore that all Guardsmen go through training that would kill our modern day infantry, and lets ignore the fact that the Guardsmen regularly stare down much, MUCH worse compared to our boys; and then lets assume both commanders are of equal quality.

You're quoting me, but I'm not sure who you're talking to. Mind clarifying?

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:the Americans had the better trained better equipped troops and still lost.

We won more battles than we lost. But we lost support for the war. The Guard aren't going to lose support for the war. They can maintain half a million man drops every year for decades on the same meat grinder warzone planet without fatigue. Centuries if need be. Hell it would become a tradition to them. Same goes for your note about Germans-- the Imperial Guard is far more skilled and experienced in fighting in various kinds of terrain than we are.

If we are talking hypothetically here, then what makes you think that the IG would not make the same mistakes?

No. We Americans are noobs at war. Very capable and skilled noobs with high tech gadgets and lots of money sure. But still noobs. We have a mere two hundred years of experience at war as a nation, almost all of which were against inferior or equal opponents. The Imperium has ten thousand, against the toughest, meanest, and most downright freaky enemies that the 40k universe can provide. Childish mistakes like that aren't things the Imperium makes.

IvanTih wrote:

Melissia wrote:

IvanTih wrote:I know all that(a ton of novels supports your point,I base my opinion on the fluff),but wasn't it stated by GW that game mechanics aren't actual repretentation of the 40k capabilities(and I know that the flak armor would laugh at the modern small arms)?

They're a rough approximation. Inquisitor and (more recently) Dark Heresy are a less rough approximation.

Thanks for clarifying that Melissia.

You should go look up the Dark Heresy books. They have a lot of neat fluff in them.

It is difficult enough to have a reasonable discussion because of the vagueries associated with the OP's topic. Let's not make it worse by using fluff mixed with the table top rules.

BTW, an autogun in 40k cannot be the equivalent of an M16, why? Because even the Imperium would not saddle the IG with a 5.56 weapon... The Emperor, in his wisdom, would have surely known that you need at least 8mm to put someone down with one hit. Add flak armor to the mix, and, well, bring out the 12.7 or 14.5.

Nerivant wrote:

Varrick wrote:

Oh look at that; the spit take put iced tea all over my monitor.

So whats this about modern day infantry being better trained and disciplined compared to a notable Imperial Guard regiment? Lets ignore that all Guardsmen go through training that would kill our modern day infantry, and lets ignore the fact that the Guardsmen regularly stare down much, MUCH worse compared to our boys; and then lets assume both commanders are of equal quality.

You're quoting me, but I'm not sure who you're talking to. Mind clarifying?

Clarified the post.

iproxtaco wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:We really need to come up with the specific forces in involved and which environment they will fight in.

Right, home advantage, that works..... Stick your 100 Cadians into the middle of New York and then sic the Marines on em. I guess in that case, if it's just 100 basic IG (with no air support or titans or all of that stuff) against 100 basic Marines (again with no air support etc etc), then my money would be on the Marines. Home advantage counts for an awful lot. Especially if you are in a combat situation....

Okay, but for that to be an advantage, you'd need 100 soldiers who are intimately familiar with New York City.

Lets say they're fighting 100 Guardsmen with extensive experience with urban combat.

Guardsmen win.

But then you are assuming that the Marines would not have extensive urban combat training? And also that none of thearines had been to NYC? They would know an awful lot more about it than the IG that's for sure.

Regardless, Cadians are trained from a very early age how to defend their cities. They would be infinitely more experienced that 100 marines. That coupled with better training over all, better armor, better command, technology and weaponry means a win for the Imperium.

Not in an urban Environment... You can successfully hold off companies of infantry with only a mere "Squad" while holed up inside a building. Assuming that an IG force was attacking NYC, the modern military would use our own buildings much to our advantage.

But, in response to the OP, I would have to break things down to "known" units... For instance, Elysians vs. 75th Ranger Regt.; Cadians vs. 1ID (or 4ID, as they are mechanized); Catachans vs. 25ID (or maybe more fair to have them square up with some SOCOM operators) etc.

Also, completely eliminating modern armor is not such a good thing, because while in the fluff, the LRBT may outgun an Abrams, the Abrams is much more mobile and can maneuver itself into prime position to take out the LR. The "tank hunting" rounds that we use in an Abrams arent designed to make huge craters the way Russes would, they are designed to turn an enemy tank into a smoldering husk of metal. Using a historical example, the Russian T-32 had some great success against the heavier, better armored german Panzers, because of tactics, and mobility.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

dirkthe1 wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:That's all true, but we have the weapon of last resort. The A-Bomb..... And before you all start crowing about virus bombs etc etc, don't. I presume this little tete a tete will happen on Earth? If that's the case do you really think that the IG would virus bomb the planet of their ancestors and the current home of the Beloved Emporer? I don't think that they would....... Hopefully.......

But they would arrive out of the blue and start killing everyone? I see. Are you 15 by chance?

An I see you did not read the OP's opening statement, which clearly says that it's '100 IG v 100 modern day troops. Now I presume by the 'versus' part of that that someone started shooting first...... Next time please read the thread title more clearly......

So with that in mind.
100 guard arrive without contact- thus we must assume they are hostile. Location isn't specific, however is most likely to be a high value Target- un, white house or similar- has to be earth as we havn't got any off world sites.
So this weapon of last resort you speak of has been rendered useless, and with you knowledge of weapons and tactics, please inform me 1 why they wouldnt virus bomb us. And 2, bearing in mind the opening statement, what exactly does any of you post have to do with that situation. Hence my comment asking if you were 15.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Also, completely eliminating modern armor is not such a good thing, because while in the fluff, the LRBT may outgun an Abrams, the Abrams is much more mobile

The Abrams has roughly equivalent speed to the LRBT. The Russes have dual purpose rounds that are both anti-tank AND anti-infantry, not just purely anti-infantry. They also have anti-tank dedicated rounds as well, something that isn't in tabletop but is in fluff.

Varrick wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Varrick wrote:

Oh look at that; the spit take put iced tea all over my monitor.

So whats this about modern day infantry being better trained and disciplined compared to a notable Imperial Guard regiment? Lets ignore that all Guardsmen go through training that would kill our modern day infantry, and lets ignore the fact that the Guardsmen regularly stare down much, MUCH worse compared to our boys; and then lets assume both commanders are of equal quality.

You're quoting me, but I'm not sure who you're talking to. Mind clarifying?

Clarified the post.

Alright, thanks.
I never said they were better trained or disciplined. I assumed that they received equal amounts of training, but the quality of the training and the technological advantage of the Guard was more than enough to make up for "home field advantage."

But not so clearly or in so many words.

Melissia wrote:Thanks for clarifying that Melissia.You should go look up the Dark Heresy books. They have a lot of neat fluff in them.

I have read them all.


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Melissia wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Also, completely eliminating modern armor is not such a good thing, because while in the fluff, the LRBT may outgun an Abrams, the Abrams is much more mobile

The Abrams has roughly equivalent speed to the LRBT. The Russes have dual purpose rounds that are both anti-tank AND anti-infantry.

Nevermind the stronger weaponry and armor.

Uhlan wrote:It is difficult enough to have a reasonable discussion because of the vagueries associated with the OP's topic. Let's not make it worse by using fluff mixed with the table top rules.

BTW, an autogun in 40k cannot be the equivalent of an M16, why? Because even the Imperium would not saddle the IG with a 5.56 weapon... The Emperor, in his wisdom, would have surely known that you need at least 8mm to put someone down with one hit. Add flak armor to the mix, and, well, bring out the 12.7 or 14.5.

Indeed. The Autogun is a pretty high caliber rifle. And a caseless one to boot-- and despite being caseless it still has better reliability and less dangerous ammunition than our non-caseless weapons.

Well, the IG would probably be like: gak, we're on Terra, lots grovel....

Plus, JTF2 would rape them in the ass.

Nerivant wrote:

Varrick wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Varrick wrote:

Oh look at that; the spit take put iced tea all over my monitor.

So whats this about modern day infantry being better trained and disciplined compared to a notable Imperial Guard regiment? Lets ignore that all Guardsmen go through training that would kill our modern day infantry, and lets ignore the fact that the Guardsmen regularly stare down much, MUCH worse compared to our boys; and then lets assume both commanders are of equal quality.

You're quoting me, but I'm not sure who you're talking to. Mind clarifying?

Clarified the post.

Alright, thanks.
I never said they were better trained or disciplined. I assumed that they received equal amounts of training, but the quality of the training and the technological advantage of the Guard was more than enough to make up for "home field advantage."

But not so clearly or in so many words.

I realize my mistake as well. I meant to say equal but i said better. Don't know why but i did.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:We really need to come up with the specific forces in involved and which environment they will fight in.

Right, home advantage, that works..... Stick your 100 Cadians into the middle of New York and then sic the Marines on em. I guess in that case, if it's just 100 basic IG (with no air support or titans or all of that stuff) against 100 basic Marines (again with no air support etc etc), then my money would be on the Marines. Home advantage counts for an awful lot. Especially if you are in a combat situation....

Okay, but for that to be an advantage, you'd need 100 soldiers who are intimately familiar with New York City.

Lets say they're fighting 100 Guardsmen with extensive experience with urban combat.

Guardsmen win.

But then you are assuming that the Marines would not have extensive urban combat training? And also that none of thearines had been to NYC? They would know an awful lot more about it than the IG that's for sure.

Regardless, Cadians are trained from a very early age how to defend their cities. They would be infinitely more experienced that 100 marines. That coupled with better training over all, better armor, better command, technology and weaponry means a win for the Imperium.

Not in an urban Environment... You can successfully hold off companies of infantry with only a mere "Squad" while holed up inside a building. Assuming that an IG force was attacking NYC, the modern military would use our own buildings much to our advantage.

But, in response to the OP, I would have to break things down to "known" units... For instance, Elysians vs. 75th Ranger Regt.; Cadians vs. 1ID (or 4ID, as they are mechanized); Catachans vs. 25ID (or maybe more fair to have them square up with some SOCOM operators) etc.

Also, completely eliminating modern armor is not such a good thing, because while in the fluff, the LRBT may outgun an Abrams, the Abrams is much more mobile and can maneuver itself into prime position to take out the LR. The "tank hunting" rounds that we use in an Abrams arent designed to make huge craters the way Russes would, they are designed to turn an enemy tank into a smoldering husk of metal. Using a historical example, the Russian T-32 had some great success against the heavier, better armored german Panzers, because of tactics, and mobility.

Define Urban Environment. If you mean a built up business district with many tall tightly packed buildings then Cadians are trained in a similar environment, and are therefore superior.


In fluff, A LR can outgun. I'm not sure what it's speed is or it's maneuverability but it's armor is vastly superior to an Abrams. An Abrams tank hunting rounds wouldn't dent the shell of a Leman Russ, whilst a single shell from a Leman Russ would obliterate an Abrams. Our modern tanks are never going to destroy a LR, and will run out of fuel quickly in a prolonged tank battle where it's always moving around, whereas as the crew of a LR will just throw their shoes into the stove to keep it running, or pick up some dirt.

Melissia wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Also, completely eliminating modern armor is not such a good thing, because while in the fluff, the LRBT may outgun an Abrams, the Abrams is much more mobile

The Abrams has roughly equivalent speed to the LRBT. The Russes have dual purpose rounds that are both anti-tank AND anti-infantry, not just purely anti-infantry. They also have anti-tank dedicated rounds as well, something that isn't in tabletop but is in fluff.

I had read somewhere that a Leman Russ can get moving up to 40kph.. the Abrams can go 45mph, which is much faster. And I realize that the Russ has multiple types of round, as does the Abrams. The difference being of course the various turret types available to the Russ. I think that an Abrams against Plasma loaded LRs would be screwed.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:I had read somewhere that a Leman Russ can get moving up to 40kph.. the Abrams can go 45mph, which is much faster.

It varies from source to source, but Imperial Armour is where I got that estimate from. The Russ IS a bit slower, but they're still roughly equivalent in speed, and the Russ is actually probably more maneuverable in turning.

iproxtaco wrote:
Define Urban Environment. If you mean a built up business district with many tall tightly packed buildings then Cadians are trained in a similar environment, and are therefore superior.


In fluff, A LR can outgun. I'm not sure what it's speed is or it's maneuverability but it's armor is vastly superior to an Abrams. An Abrams tank hunting rounds wouldn't dent the shell of a Leman Russ, whilst a single shell from a Leman Russ would obliterate an Abrams. Our modern tanks are never going to destroy a LR, and will run out of fuel quickly in a prolonged tank battle where it's always moving around, whereas as the crew of a LR will just throw their shoes into the stove to keep it running, or pick up some dirt.

Fluff and training doesnt matter when entering an "urban environment". this can be an inner city, highrise laden district, or a part of most towns that showcases buildings of 2-5 stories. Its purely "fact" that the defenders in an urban environment have a HUGE advantage over ANY attacker, and a very small force can keep a larger force from taking their building/block/held area.

Unless, of course, the attacking force themselves is prepared for it...

The IG doesn't have to follow the rules of war that we do. Using promethium fueled flamers to clear out a building is pretty common in 40k. Shotguns certainly aren't outlawed either, nor are the various kinds of fragmentation rounds.

Melissia wrote:Unless, of course, the attacking force themselves is prepared for it...

The IG doesn't have to follow the rules of war that we do. Using promethium fueled flamers to clear out a building is pretty common in 40k. Shotguns certainly aren't outlawed either, nor are the various kinds of fragmentation rounds.

Exactly. Geneva convention of warfare means jack squat to them.

Melissia wrote:Unless, of course, the attacking force themselves is prepared for it...

The IG doesn't have to follow the rules of war that we do. Using promethium fueled flamers to clear out a building is pretty common in 40k. Shotguns certainly aren't outlawed either, nor are the various kinds of fragmentation rounds.

Very true. With Flame Throwers banned under the Geneva convention we would be at a large disadvantage.
In fact, (I'm sure you guys will correct me if I'm wrong ) cluster bombs and fragmentation weapons in general are also frowned upon.

So, yes, I concede. The modern day army would be royally screwed.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Define Urban Environment. If you mean a built up business district with many tall tightly packed buildings then Cadians are trained in a similar environment, and are therefore superior.


In fluff, A LR can outgun. I'm not sure what it's speed is or it's maneuverability but it's armor is vastly superior to an Abrams. An Abrams tank hunting rounds wouldn't dent the shell of a Leman Russ, whilst a single shell from a Leman Russ would obliterate an Abrams. Our modern tanks are never going to destroy a LR, and will run out of fuel quickly in a prolonged tank battle where it's always moving around, whereas as the crew of a LR will just throw their shoes into the stove to keep it running, or pick up some dirt.

Fluff and training doesnt matter when entering an "urban environment". this can be an inner city, highrise laden district, or a part of most towns that showcases buildings of 2-5 stories. Its purely "fact" that the defenders in an urban environment have a HUGE advantage over ANY attacker, and a very small force can keep a larger force from taking their building/block/held area.

Training certainly does have a tremendous value when assaulting an urban enviroment. Add technological disparity in equipment as indicated in the fluff and it makes matters worse for moderns in both aspects. Moderns assaulting IG in fortified urban areas, moderns lose BIG.

Moderns defending in a fortified urban enviroment there is certainly more 'quid pro quo', but the result will be the same. Especially when you consider the OP's topic 100 vs. 100.

I will say it again, the IG is not a PDF force. It is the Imperial Guard. It is called that for a reason. The IG fighting and dying by the 10's of thousands in the fluff is only indicative of that battle and the opponents being fought. Opponents with, in many cases, similar to vastly superior combat values on a scale unimaginable to our modern sensibilities. There is no way to quantify that reliably.

Melissia wrote:Unless, of course, the attacking force themselves is prepared for it...

The IG doesn't have to follow the rules of war that we do. Using promethium fueled flamers to clear out a building is pretty common in 40k. Shotguns certainly aren't outlawed either, nor are the various kinds of fragmentation rounds.

Those things are all controversial at the moment, but the modern military still uses flamethrowers extensively...


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As per the training, modern soldiers do receive LOTS of training, lots.

To be considered "combat ready" a bare minimum of six months training is necessary for Canadians, with twice that for specialized positions/special forces.

And anyone who thinks modern training is light, PM me for one hell of an argument.

The US military hasn't issued flamethrowers to infantry since the 1970s.

ChrisWWII wrote:The US military hasn't issued flamethrowers to infantry since the 1970s.

Because of questionable effectiveness, if I remember.

The only international law I know of relating to incendiary weapons is as follows.

"Protocol III on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons prohibits, in all circumstances, making the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. The protocol also prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against military targets near concentration of civilians, which may otherwise be allowed by the principle of proportionality. Protocol III lists certain munition types like smoke shells which, even if they contain White Phosphorus, only have a secondary incendiary effect; these munition types are not considered to be incendiary weapons."
-CCW amendment to the 1949 Geneva Conventions

They can issue them under certain circumstances, but don't.

Nerivant wrote:Because of questionable effectiveness, if I remember.

Something Imperial flamers do not have.

Imperial flamers are rightly feared across the galaxy.

Melissia wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Because of questionable effectiveness, if I remember.

Something Imperial flamers do not have.

Imperial flamers are rightly feared across the galaxy.

Another point for IG technology then.

The "modern military wins" crowd is running on... wait, what are they running on?

IvanTih wrote:Can anyone tell me the current arguments because I don't feel like reading the entire thread.

On-topic,IG stomps as they have much more powerful technology(Lasguns calcs put them in megajoules which is far above modern sidearms,40k Tanks are capable of taking weaponry calced from low gigajoule to middle triple gigajoules,flak armor capable of protecting from said Lasguns),then we have psykers etc....

Current arguments are that some people think that USA can stomp Imperial Guard with ease.


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sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Ummm the OP's original proposition was 100 IG versus 100 Modern day troops....So no, I'm not talking about nuking the whole planet. Just the 100 IG that started the whole spat in the first place.....:p

When you nuke small area of planet, effect are devastating ( see USSR 1986 and Japan in 2011 ).


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sarpedons-right-hand wrote:No. In my defence I suggested that the nuke is a last resort. However, this is a discussion about a fictional time travelling invasion force of future humans attacking modern day earth.

The nuke, therefore is not out of the realms of possibility. Neither is the time paradox out of the question!

Why would IG attack Earth? Can we just compare 100 troops, say that Guard is better and go on next tread...

Jesse... some people this days....

This has been an interesting debate; certainly, it has illuminated corners of the fluff that I wasn't aware of.

For my part, I have come to think that by and large a "proper" IG regiment, defined as one that is well trained and equipped and not a bunch of savages with spears or feudal crossbowmen, would completely dominate anything we could throw against it. Now, as always, the fluff is incomplete and contradictory, but it just seems silly to think that a fighting force 38k+ years in the future will not have access to far superior technology and materials, even if those aspects are poorly understood by the troops using them. Thus, I choose to interpret the fluff as a whole on reflecting the IG as having a military capability that outstrips what we see in the real world. Granted, the forces bear a visual resemblance to modern armies, but looks can be deceiving.

The wonderful thing about 40k though is that those spear wielding savages and crossbowman do exist, which means that somewhere in the wider Imperium there might very well be a regiment of IG (or more likely, PDF) that is pretty much analogous to our modern military forces in terms of structure and capability.

Postscript - I too had always assumed that the LRBT was quite a bit slower than modern armored vehicles, but much more heavily armed and better protected. For example, Lexicanum pegs the speed of the LRBT 10-15 kmph slower than an Abrams. Now that I bring it up, is there even a generally accepted top speed for the LR and other vehicles in the IG's armory?

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Aside: Of you want proof look at how the vastly under equipped and much worse trained Viet Kong hammered the Americans in Vietnam.
Or how the Russian's spanked the German's in Russia.....

The tech was EQUAL there, IG have LASER rifles for crying out loud
And that's not always the case. French had more troops and tanks than the Germans and they still owned them in 1940, even with the British on their side...


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Melissia wrote:
You forget, Germany was winning the war against Russia until winter hit.

Yeah, before their tank body start cracking under the cold temperatures. German steel was beaten by Russian cold


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Melissia wrote:No. We Americans are noobs at war. Very capable and skilled noobs with high tech gadgets and lots of money sure. But still noobs. We have a mere two hundred years of experience at war as a nation, almost all of which were against inferior or equal opponents.

I though I will never hear American saying that their army isn't best in everything. Thumb us Melissia, you are my hero


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im2randomghgh wrote:Well, the IG would probably be like: gak, we're on Terra, lots grovel....

Plus, JTF2 would rape them in the ass.

What part "advanced tech from 38.000 years in the future" you didn't understand?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:My friend just figured out the best reason ever for the Imperial Guard winning:


In our present time, the God-Emperor of Man is still "alive". Try killing HIM with our "awesome" weapons...

For all you know, He is a Marine; try killing Him with your puny Imperial Guard...

Ruckdog wrote: it just seems silly to think that a fighting force 38k+ years in the future will not have access to far superior technology and materials, even if those aspects are poorly understood by the troops using them.

Except that they have forgotten MUCH technology, and aren't allowed to use others.

One of the main reasons that flamethrowers were considered ineffective was the risk to the operator, and his squad. If safety of the squad is taken out of the equation, they are perfectly deadly weapons. The risk is why they use gas flamers rather than liquid flamers in the movies.

If IG flamers had the same range as modern flamers, you could hit anything on the board from any distance, since you could just fire over cover and use gravity to bring down the fire on their heads.


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Brother Coa wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Aside: Of you want proof look at how the vastly under equipped and much worse trained Viet Kong hammered the Americans in Vietnam.
Or how the Russian's spanked the German's in Russia.....

The tech was EQUAL there, IG have LASER rifles for crying out loud
And that's not always the case. French had more troops and tanks than the Germans and they still owned them in 1940, even with the British on their side...


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Melissia wrote:
You forget, Germany was winning the war against Russia until winter hit.

Yeah, before their tank body start cracking under the cold temperatures. German steel was beaten by Russian cold


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Melissia wrote:No. We Americans are noobs at war. Very capable and skilled noobs with high tech gadgets and lots of money sure. But still noobs. We have a mere two hundred years of experience at war as a nation, almost all of which were against inferior or equal opponents.

I though I will never hear American saying that their army isn't best in everything. Thumb us Melissia, you are my hero


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im2randomghgh wrote:Well, the IG would probably be like: gak, we're on Terra, lots grovel....

Plus, JTF2 would rape them in the ass.

What part "advanced tech from 38.000 years in the future" you didn't understand?

Plus, there are laser weapons today. They simply are not used because they require large amounts of gas, amounts that would be very, very hard to carry when weighed against their effectiveness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

Something which the lasgun does not require, thus making it superior to our current laser technology.

Melissia wrote:Something which the lasgun does not require, thus making it superior to our current laser technology.

Obviously. I was just making the point that we have it. Las-guns are just about the only thing the mechanicus understand, apart from dogma

Now, out of curiosity, do we consider pages 72-78 of the 2001 Chapter Approved as canon that is unimpeachable?

edit: Also, I will grant that a Lasgun is, logistically, far superior to a contemporary weapon. However, every source I've seen places Lasgun performance as equal to Autogun performance, with Autoguns being roughly equivalent to contemporary weapons (except probably firing roughly .30 cal rounds instead of .22ish cal rounds). Is there anything to contradict that? Its what I've seen in Dark Heresy, Inquisitor, and I think even the IIUP states them as, performancewise, equal.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Something which the lasgun does not require, thus making it superior to our current laser technology.

Obviously. I was just making the point that we have it. Las-guns are just about the only thing the mechanicus understand, apart from dogma

Now, now, this is another discussion entirely! In brief, I tend to think that the Imperium understands more of its technology than people give them credit for (albeit an understanding that is infused with mysticism).

Ogiwan wrote:Now, out of curiosity, do we consider pages 72-78 of the 2001 Chapter Approved as canon that is unimpeachable?

Honestly, I don't think there is really anything in all of 40k that can (or should) be considered unimpeachable. That's what makes these discussions so fun to me; different people bring their own personal knowledge and interpretation of the fluff to the table. Could you elaborate more on the source you mention and what it contains? It is from well before I was into war gaming.

Nerivant wrote:
Because of questionable effectiveness, if I remember.

Oh no, I was responding to another claim that flamethrowers were 'commond and widespread' in the modern military.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Something which the lasgun does not require, thus making it superior to our current laser technology.

Obviously. I was just making the point that we have it. Las-guns are just about the only thing the mechanicus understand, apart from dogma

That's not true. The lower echelons of the Mechanicus don't understand what they're doing, but the upper ones do.


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Ogiwan wrote:Now, out of curiosity, do we consider pages 72-78 of the 2001 Chapter Approved as canon that is unimpeachable?

edit: Also, I will grant that a Lasgun is, logistically, far superior to a contemporary weapon. However, every source I've seen places Lasgun performance as equal to Autogun performance, with Autoguns being roughly equivalent to contemporary weapons (except probably firing roughly .30 cal rounds instead of .22ish cal rounds). Is there anything to contradict that? Its what I've seen in Dark Heresy, Inquisitor, and I think even the IIUP states them as, performancewise, equal.

Keep in mind that DH and Inquisitor are roleplaying games. They have to balance out the weapons so that they are all fun to use.

So while their weapon stats are certainly more useful than tabletop's stats, they still have to have that kept in mind.

Besides, there is no automatic stub rifle in DH's core rules, though there might be one in its expanded rulesets. Autogun weapons are far more reliable and rapid fire than stub weapons though, aside from revolvers.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

Melissia wrote:Unless, of course, the attacking force themselves is prepared for it...

The IG doesn't have to follow the rules of war that we do. Using promethium fueled flamers to clear out a building is pretty common in 40k. Shotguns certainly aren't outlawed either, nor are the various kinds of fragmentation rounds.

Very true. With Flame Throwers banned under the Geneva convention we would be at a large disadvantage.
In fact, (I'm sure you guys will correct me if I'm wrong ) cluster bombs and fragmentation weapons in general are also frowned upon.

So, yes, I concede. The modern day army would be royally screwed.

The US never ratified any of the weapon ban treaties. We could legally deploy chlorine gas against anyone we felt like, before dropping a few tons of napalm B on top of them and surrounding the area with landmines. It would just be really bad PR, and of extremely questionable reasoning, since modern explosives could do the job better and cleaner.


As far as I can tell, an Abrams would be somewhere around AV10-11, at best. Of course, I don't really know how resilient it is against modern weapons, but I know an RPG can bring one down, though not how likely a direct hit from one is to do so. A modern RPG would be somewhere around the strength of a krak grenade, or weaker, while a krak missile is equivalent to or better than full fledged tank-killing missiles. Since I don't know how well such a missile would do against a modern battle tank (I'm guessing "extremely well"), I'll just give the Abrams the benefit of the doubt, and grant that it might survive. A Leman Russ' battle tank shell is enough to produce comparable damage across every inch of a ~15-20' wide area. An Abrams would be a crumpled heap of scrap if it suffered a direct hit from one.


As for training, the Guard isn't the equivalent of modern soldiers. PDF's are. The Guard is drawn entirely from the very best soldiers in a given planet's defense force, after which they're given another half year of training, before being deployed to a warzone, at which point they train constantly for the months it takes for them to get there, and during any down time once there. They're basically an entire army of special forces caliber troops, which is backed up by the fact that they're expected to be able to take an entire planet, with millions of entrenched, comparably armed enemy soldiers, with only a hundred thousand or fewer troops. Modern soldiers aren't supposed to engage hostile forces unless they're three times the opposing force's strength; Guardsmen are sent against forces that outnumber them twenty to one or better, and succeed with relatively light casualties. I'd be willing to bet that a hundred thousand SEALs with comparable equipment and support vehicles could take Earth, if you either removed nuclear weapons from the equation or added in the sort of orbital support the Guard would have. With Stormtroopers there's no easy analogue, since they're basically what you'd get if you started special forces level training when the subjects were in kindergarten, and only ramped it up from there, with the goal of creating a soldier with "does the sort of thing that would generally warrant a medal of honor at least once every time he's deployed" as a baseline performance level.

Talking about IG Tanks, your forgetting one thing, the LRBT has anti tank rounds that are desinged to puch holes through super heavy tanks the force needed to do that would probably knock an Abrams or Challenger Tank a few meters back and probably kill or injure the crew even if the tank remains in shape

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As for training, the Guard isn't the equivalent of modern soldiers. PDF's are. The Guard is drawn entirely from the very best soldiers in a given planet's defense force, after which they're given another half year of training, before being deployed to a warzone, at which point they train constantly for the months it takes for them to get there, and during any down time once there. .

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Define Urban Environment. If you mean a built up business district with many tall tightly packed buildings then Cadians are trained in a similar environment, and are therefore superior.


In fluff, A LR can outgun. I'm not sure what it's speed is or it's maneuverability but it's armor is vastly superior to an Abrams. An Abrams tank hunting rounds wouldn't dent the shell of a Leman Russ, whilst a single shell from a Leman Russ would obliterate an Abrams. Our modern tanks are never going to destroy a LR, and will run out of fuel quickly in a prolonged tank battle where it's always moving around, whereas as the crew of a LR will just throw their shoes into the stove to keep it running, or pick up some dirt.

Fluff and training doesnt matter when entering an "urban environment". this can be an inner city, highrise laden district, or a part of most towns that showcases buildings of 2-5 stories. Its purely "fact" that the defenders in an urban environment have a HUGE advantage over ANY attacker, and a very small force can keep a larger force from taking their building/block/held area.

This assumes the invading force wants to keep the urban environment intact.

If they do not, they level it.

Having served in the US Army, I can tell you that we have no problems leveling an entire city block in order to take out one sniper, provided the fire or air support is available, and the rules of engagement permit escalation of that scale.

It is a "fact" only if the city cannot be destroyed due to ROE or other considerations. If this is not at issue, then the efficient general is going to turn the place into a crater.

I think it'll be down to the special and heavy weapons they have.

However by merely passing a LD test the guardsmen get to fire extra bullets giving them a huge advantage.

phantommaster wrote:I think it'll be down to the special and heavy weapons they have.

However by merely passing a LD test the guardsmen get to fire extra bullets giving them a huge advantage.

The modern military can have three times the number special weapons, it wouldn't matter. The Imperiums special weapons are about 20 times more powerful and advanced than ours.


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im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As for training, the Guard isn't the equivalent of modern soldiers. PDF's are. The Guard is drawn entirely from the very best soldiers in a given planet's defense force, after which they're given another half year of training, before being deployed to a warzone, at which point they train constantly for the months it takes for them to get there, and during any down time once there. .

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

Storm Troopers are trained from childhood to the end of their lives. They are infinitely better trained than any of our special forces, not to mention better equipped, better experienced and genetically enhanced. They would wipe the floor with our best of the best without breaking a sweat and would probably do it subconsciously.

im2randomghgh wrote:

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

The PDF are the equivalent of an average soldier today. Probably not an American soldier, but perhaps a Russian or Chinese one. Not as well trained, but a far cry from an untrained insurgent.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

They are BETTER than modern day Spec Ops. Modern day Spec Ops may have training from hell, and they are no doubt some of the deadliest human beings on the planet, but Stormtroopers are genetically enhanced, and raised from birth to be the finest soldiers humanity can provide short of the Space Marines.

They have better weapons, and better armor. They are the equivalent in function however they are more skilled and more lethal than modern special forces.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As for training, the Guard isn't the equivalent of modern soldiers. PDF's are. The Guard is drawn entirely from the very best soldiers in a given planet's defense force, after which they're given another half year of training, before being deployed to a warzone, at which point they train constantly for the months it takes for them to get there, and during any down time once there.

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

Key word being "another half year". PDF's are comprised of trained soldiers, even if they're not necessarily maintained as a standing army post-training. By all indications, the average Guardsman undergoes a selection process as demanding and training as rigorous as that of special forces.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

Which is something the average Guardsman is depicted as doing. Therefore supporting the idea that the Guard are basically an entire army comprised of special forces caliber troops. Stormtroopers and Guard veterans take that to an entirely other level, with a baseline performance akin to the most unbelievable feats ever actually accomplished.

im2randomghgh wrote:And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today

They are to spec ops what spec ops are to normal soldiers.

@ all the people questioning my comparison of spec ops to stormtroopers, a quote from the GW website:

GW wrote: A Space Marine is a
genetically-enhanced, psycho-indoctrinated,
highly trained killing machine. Forget the SAS,
Spetznatz and Navy SEALS; their equivalent
are the Imperial Guard Storm Troopers. Space
Marines are something far above and beyond
conventional forces as we understand them
today

P.S., Ninja: http://bestofyoutube.com/story.php?title=superhuman-super-samurai

You have to remember GW also claims Space Marines are actually important and able to effect meaningful anything, while portraying them as bumbling idiots who take credit for victories won by Guardsmen or other conventional forces (for an excellent example, look at the Battle for Macragge, where Calgar royally bungles everything he touches, before abandoning the conventional forces, sending his remaining marines to die pointlessly hiding in holes in the ground, and rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap; the Navy shows up and butchers the Hive fleet, and the surviving Marines return to Macragge to mop up the scattered pockets of surviving Tyranids, meaning the abandoned conventional forces, once Calgar's incompetence was removed from the picture, routed the Tyranids, while a company of terminators was butchered, killing a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the hundreds of millions...), and that the "snappy" taglines on their site tend to actively contradict the published fluff and occasionally themselves.

Yes, GW also says that the Sisters of Battle are "shining examples of all that's good about humanity" and then uses them as little more than scratching posts to kill off to make other factions look powerful. So apparently all humanity is good for is dying or something.

What GW says on its site is often different from what is actually in the fluff-- for example, in BL books, Marines are completely and utterly incompetent, stupid, forgetful, and so on... yet they somehow manage to get the jobs done anyway (usually through copious amounts of plot armor). But reading GW's stuff on the site, you'd think that they were, I dunno, actually competent.

Melissia wrote:Yes, GW also says that the Sisters of Battle are "shining examples of all that's good about humanity" and then uses them as little more than scratching posts to kill off to make other factions look powerful. So apparently all humanity is good for is dying or something.

What GW says on its site is often different from what is actually in the fluff-- for example, in BL books, Marines are completely and utterly incompetent, stupid, forgetful, and so on... yet they somehow manage to get the jobs done anyway (usually through copious amounts of plot armor). But reading GW's stuff on the site, you'd think that they were, I dunno, actually competent.

We can agree on incompetant: "my bolter that fires .75 caliber explosive rounds (a grenade launcher on auto) could kill that greenskin, so I should just hit it with my hammer" but stupid and forgetful I do not agree with. When do marines ever forget?

im2randomghgh wrote:We can agree on incompetant: "my bolter that fires .75 caliber explosive rounds (a grenade launcher on auto) could kill that greenskin, so I should just hit it with my hammer" but stupid and forgetful I do not agree with. When do marines ever forget?

When C.S.Goto writes them (a terminator sarge forgot his briefing and even the fact that his armor had cyclone missile launchers until late in the battle).

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:We can agree on incompetant: "my bolter that fires .75 caliber explosive rounds (a grenade launcher on auto) could kill that greenskin, so I should just hit it with my hammer" but stupid and forgetful I do not agree with. When do marines ever forget?

When C.S.Goto writes them (a terminator sarge forgot his briefing and even the fact that his armor had cyclone missile launchers until late in the battle).

C.S. Goto (a.k.a. Matt Ward) is awful. Whenever possible, try to avoid taking his (it's) stuff as canon. Even when GW says it is, it just isn't.

Melissia wrote:When C.S.Goto writes them (a terminator sarge forgot his briefing and even the fact that his armor had cyclone missile launchers until late in the battle).

If we took everything C.S. Goto wrote as canon, Rhinos could turn into Razorbacks that turn into Land Raiders back into Rhinos, and Imperial Navy ships would acrry hundreds of Cobras in their hangar bays (since Cobras are apparently fighters).

Sure, but it's still canon according to black library. One marinewank story is hardly any better than another to me.

i have to point out to those putting forward the arguement of "out tanks are better than IG"

if anyones read the gaunts ghosts stories then they will know that when the zoicans are attacking the hive city then as soon as the void shield goes down then the wall (made of adamantium and cemite, the strongest materials in the galaxy) gets blown to peices in about 20 mins.

also there is a background hum that is the sound of several billion lasguns firing all at once.


this is to put into perspective how very, very out classed we are (in my opinion).

also there is the fact that the big things in 40k are "dumbed down" a lot, in the fluff how many times have you heard of a carnifex taking "a wound" from 4 bolter shells because it failed its 3+ armour save. and finaly they have made a tank the same difficulty to get through as a concreate wall

thats my rant

P.S i think the point of having the LR tank the shape it is, is to make it an imposing sight on the table top and in the fluff , not practicaly viable

khorne forever wrote:
P.S i think the point of having the LR tank the shape it is, is to make it an imposing sight on the table top and in the fluff , not practicaly viable

They look like the first tanks made by humans, almost like proto-tanks.

Like the British Mark V.


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khorne forever wrote:

if anyones read the gaunts ghosts stories then they will know that when the zoicans are attacking the hive city then as soon as the void shield goes down then the wall (made of adamantium and cemite, the strongest materials in the galaxy) gets blown to peices in about 20 mins.

In the Galaxy. Don't say in the universe. The only ones who know anything at all about the universe outside the galaxy are the Nids.

good call about the galaxy, my bad

now these 2 posts will mean nothing

Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

KOS wrote:Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

I am curious how you come by this conclusion... per the fluff most of the imperial guard are taken from the best of the PDF from each world... and if they need more than available only then do they take conscripts.

This means they are the equivelent of each worlds special forces.... and this is just the regular troops, who trained even more after being inducted into the guard. Add in the fact they have better weapons and armor, (this has been discussed in detail throughout the thread) don't even blink when they lose 80+% of their numbers, and are used to fighting things our troops cannot even dream of... and our troops are at a major disadvantage.

Heck their armor alone would shrug off even .50 calibre rounds.... (the equivelent of ork shootas, they can save against a third of the time.)

Imperial Guard are only wimpy in 40k in comparrison the other people there.... genetically engineered super-soldiers that live thousands of years, hundred to thousand of year old space elves with super fast reflexes and high tech armor and weapons, Green skinned monsters that get an arm blown off and keep coming at you, monsters right out of Geigers wet dreams, and actual Daemons that possess and devour you....

And think of this... the guard actually fight all of those and win as often as not...

well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia. They are always treated as soldiers with not much training while the regular Guards do receive real combat training.

As I wrote before, this is my personal opinion on the Guard. They are always treated like cannon fodders so there is no real meaning to teach them more than "run ahead, pull the trigger". If it would be otherwise they'd receive a different training and would use different tactics.

Yes, they have to face (usually) Orks, fanatical power armoured chaos marines and high tech Xenos. But they are not the best of the best, these ones are the Veterans that do survive the meat grinding machine that is the Imperium AND let's not forget the Stormtroopers.

This is my vision, but we all know (thank God I'd say) that the Imperium is so vast and different that practicaly all our ideas could exist at the same time. We'd have a world with incompetent Guards and another that might have BS4 right away from Conscripts

EDIT

besides this , we are talking about a Science Fiction universe. We are talking about fake units against real ones. It is as if we'd try to compare a Sovreign Class from Star Trek against a Victory Star Destroyer of Star Wars. Nonsense. But it's fun

KOS wrote:well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia. They are always treated as soldiers with not much training while the regular Guards do receive real combat training.

As I wrote before, this is my personal opinion on the Guard. They are always treated like cannon fodders so there is no real meaning to teach them more than "run ahead, pull the trigger". If it would be otherwise they'd receive a different training and would use different tactics.

Yes, they have to face (usually) Orks, fanatical power armoured chaos marines and high tech Xenos. But they are not the best of the best, these ones are the Veterans that do survive the meat grinding machine that is the Imperium AND let's not forget the Stormtroopers.

This is my vision, but we all know (thank God I'd say) that the Imperium is so vast and different that practicaly all our ideas could exist at the same time. We'd have a world with incompetent Guards and another that might have BS4 right away from Conscripts

Cadian PDF is as well trained as the U.S. military at the very least per the fluff as is the catachan's (heck everyone from their world, if they live past their teens, has already literally survived hell on earth style world), etc.. In the stories and fluff they have more than the "run ahead, pull the trigger"... it is the players of the game that use them like that more often than not, not how they were designed.

Now on some worlds the PDF's might be a joke, but most of the hive worlds and "named" ones from the imperial guard codex have skilled militaries that have engaged in combat in recent years at the very least. The PDF's being a militia just does not meet the fluff in any of the books I have read, now the PDF's often fight militias that are led by heretics/chaos/genestealers but they were normally only beaten due to massive disadvantage in numbers. (Heck necromunda even went into details on how one of the gangs fought so hard in the gang wars to prove themselves so they could join the real military of the PDF in hopes of one day being selected for the IG)

The IG are more treated as expendable, (which they are, as just like the Orks; you can kill all you want they will make more.) than being merely cannon fodder... There is a huge difference between the two. Heck in the U.S. military there are times when we consider units to be expendable, if it completes our objective.

Now the conscripts and penal legion units are used as cannon fodder true, but the rest normally stay behind cover and take out targets as they come. (In most of the fluff they are defending locations or sending the cannon fodder first if they have to assault) Heck even in the rules for the orders the officers give, about half of them are movement or defensive in nature not what you give to someone you don't care if they live.

Note I did not say the base troops were the best of the best of the Imperium... they are the best of the best of their world. It would be like if we took all of the special forces from earth and made them into one army... that would be an imperial guard regiment. The best among the best of the special forces would become the elites/veterans... and frankly we have nothing to compare to the stormtroopers, they have been training since kids to be what they are... and get some modifications (just nothing compared to the space marines.)

And remember veterans are not just people who have survived a few battles... they are troops that have survived normally over a decade of fighting the most powerful/vicious things in the galaxy... not just combat, but combat against things that are worse than your worst nightmare... where they were outgunned and outmatched in everyway, but they still survived. This is way beyond special forces training, you are looking at SEAL team 6 groups... And the veterans are not even as tough as the stormtroopers. That is a scary thought.

I am not attacking you on this btw, I know it is your personal opinion, but I was just trying to figure out where people are getting this opinion of the guard from. I know that alot of the players don't even bother with rudimentory tactics in 40k with the guard (or heck the space marines) even though they have abilities built in that encourage tactics.

KOS wrote:besides this , we are talking about a Science Fiction universe. We are talking about fake units against real ones. It is as if we'd try to compare a Sovreign Class from Star Trek against a Victory Star Destroyer of Star Wars. Nonsense. But it's fun

hehe, I have been in those arguements for fun before too... star trek loses, but they always try to confuse turbolaser with the actual weak lasers from star trek... they are no where near anything alike.

Like comparing the necron guass rifles to guass weapon real tech. Same name for totally different things.

KOS wrote:Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

Nah, modern soldiers would be the equivalent of a PDF. You assume Guardsmen are fanatical idiots with no sense of tactics, when they do know what they're doing. Human wave tactics just happen to work a lot (especially when your commander is a politically appointed numbskull). Throw enough men, tnaks and shells at the problem, and it should go away.

People forget what the Imperial Guard are fighting...it's not that the Imperial Guard sucks and lasguns are weak, but it's just that everything else is so damn powerful that they look sucky and weak in comparison.

KOS wrote:well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia. They are always treated as soldiers with not much training while the regular Guards do receive real combat training.

When a planet's tithed, it sends the top 10% of its PDF to the Guard. Other fluff has the recruits joining up when the planet is tithed, rather than being in any military force prior. The only way to reconcile the two is to assume that when tithed, significantly more recruits than go to the Guard are trained and tested, and the best of them are sent to receive further training, while the rest go into the standing army, police forces, or a part-time national guard type thing.

As I wrote before, this is my personal opinion on the Guard. They are always treated like cannon fodders so there is no real meaning to teach them more than "run ahead, pull the trigger". If it would be otherwise they'd receive a different training and would use different tactics.

Yes, they have to face (usually) Orks, fanatical power armoured chaos marines and high tech Xenos. But they are not the best of the best, these ones are the Veterans that do survive the meat grinding machine that is the Imperium AND let's not forget the Stormtroopers.

They're generally sent against numerically superior forces, who are usually entrenched in defensive positions. They butcher them, while sustaining mild casualties. With that in mind, the insane things they do seem a lot more like the completely insane things that soldiers have actually done that apparently worked through the sheer audacity and ability of the individuals in question. I'd link to a bunch of Cracked articles to support that point, but that would entail scouring the obscene number of cracked articles in my history to pick out the three or four I'm thinking of, with no clue what their titles were.

Remember that veterans and stormtroopers have marksmanship equivalent to mutant supersoldiers with a suite of targeting equipment in their helmet, who've been training non-stop for decades or centuries. Normal Guardsmen are only one step behind that.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Remember that veterans and stormtroopers have marksmanship equivalent to mutant supersoldiers with a suite of targeting equipment in their helmet, who've been training non-stop for decades or centuries. Normal Guardsmen are only one step behind that.

While I'm on "your side", I felt that I had to chime in here: They don't. The same BS in-game isn't the same as being that good marksmen fluffwise.

And yet, they are. In truth, Marines don't actually have that much better marksmanship than a veteran human soldier. Their better vision assists them, but shot for shot a veteran guardsman is going to be just about as good as a Marine. This comes from the Dark Heresy / Deathwatch roleplays. The places that Marines have an advantage in are strength and toughness, IE, they do massive damage in close combat and they can take a beating like nobody's business.

Deathwatch represents an already veteran marine, and the basic stats for that are ~40-45 BS (out of 100). Basic BS of a human being is 25-35, and that's base stats for one with no combat experience. A veteran guardsman can get to Astartes level accuracy fairly quickly, although they will have difficulty matching the Astartes at long range due to the Astartes' superior eyesight, and perhaps the marine also having an advantage in aiming faster due to strength (his weapon is pretty light to him).

KOS wrote:well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia.

No they aren't, they are like the Guard - just a little less training. Take Macragge PDF for example, they are very well trained and held down Tyranids for a while... If record from the BL is correct than they are trained exactly like today's modern troops.

i dont know if this hase been pointed out already but, correct me if im wrong, isnt a krak missile the same as a normal anti tank rpg today if not stronger, and from the documentrys that i have seen an modern rpg is very distructive. however only 1/6 of the krak missiles that hit at leman russ will penetrate.

so i would assume that if a modern trooper got hit by something that is 2.5 times weaker than a rpg then they would die quickly.

i hope that people understand where im coming from

sekerra wrote:

KOS wrote:Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

I am curious how you come by this conclusion... per the fluff most of the imperial guard are taken from the best of the PDF from each world... and if they need more than available only then do they take conscripts.

This means they are the equivelent of each worlds special forces.... and this is just the regular troops, who trained even more after being inducted into the guard. Add in the fact they have better weapons and armor, (this has been discussed in detail throughout the thread) don't even blink when they lose 80+% of their numbers, and are used to fighting things our troops cannot even dream of... and our troops are at a major disadvantage.

Heck their armor alone would shrug off even .50 calibre rounds.... (the equivelent of ork shootas, they can save against a third of the time.)

Imperial Guard are only wimpy in 40k in comparrison the other people there.... genetically engineered super-soldiers that live thousands of years, hundred to thousand of year old space elves with super fast reflexes and high tech armor and weapons, Green skinned monsters that get an arm blown off and keep coming at you, monsters right out of Geigers wet dreams, and actual Daemons that possess and devour you....

And think of this... the guard actually fight all of those and win as often as not...

@ KOS, +1

@ Sekerra, -1

The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

And yes, they do blink when they lose 80% of their number, the only exception being when a commissar is present.

About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

The most advanced modern body armour is equal or greater to carapace armour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE titanium plates. Like juggernauts from COD

Also, it withstood AP rounds, rounds DESIGNED to pierce this.

And although modern weapons pale in comparison to lasguns, it is still more deadly than most people give them credit for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIzyP6l1AM&feature=related

Basically, this is a bolter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4&feature=relmfu






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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&feature=related

The armour withstood A GRENADE

im2randomghgh wrote:
About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

If you shoot any of our modern-day body armour with a .75 cal missile, the wearer is paste. If a Space Marine shoots a Stormtrooper with a bolter, the Carapace armour stands a good chance of stopping the round.


I'll leave the rest to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-j7n0AnIGM&NR=1

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Read Scourge the Heretic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't compare a las-gun to a .50 rifle. It is more powerful than modern AR, sure, but a .50 cal can destroy APC, commercial airliners, and bunnies. All in one shot each (except the bunny, you might need 2 or 3)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Read Scourge the Heretic.

Either explain what you're talking about and refute my point, or acknowledge that I'm right. "Go, buy and read this book" isn't an argument.

In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

im2randomghgh wrote:In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

That depend on a planet, but such planets are rare ( Cadia, Vostroya, Mordia... ), all other planets give the best of the ir PDF solders to IG.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

That depend on a planet, but such planets are rare ( Cadia, Vostroya, Mordia... ), all other planets give the best of the ir PDF solders to IG.

Not really with Cadia, I think it is more just that there is no place for the IRS in a warzone

Also, it is not so rare, since poor planets that have no other means to pay use men for their tithes, and there are MANY poor planets in wh40k.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

That depend on a planet, but such planets are rare ( Cadia, Vostroya, Mordia... ), all other planets give the best of the ir PDF solders to IG.

Not really with Cadia, I think it is more just that there is no place for the IRS in a warzone

Also, it is not so rare, since poor planets that have no other means to pay use men for their tithes, and there are MANY poor planets in wh40k.

Well, some planets do pay in Guardsman. But they train them well, and sometimes give them the good equipment. Such planets are those I have listed, well maybe except Cadia. Take Armageddon for example, instead of paying tithe, they are giving Armor and Guard units instead. Necromunda to.

And how much is Imperial tithe anyway?

Brother Coa wrote:
And how much is Imperial tithe anyway?

Enough to bleed planets dry for generations. They need enough resources to fuel their forges (FWs) and their war efforts. That's a LOT of resources, plus they need it to help maintain 1,000,000+ planets.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And how much is Imperial tithe anyway?

Enough to bleed planets dry for generations. They need enough resources to fuel their forges (FWs) and their war efforts. That's a LOT of resources, plus they need it to help maintain 1,000,000+ planets.

Ok, but that is only what we see. Is there somewhere some text that said how much is it exactly per planet?

im2randomghgh wrote:@ KOS, +1

@ Sekerra, -1

The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

And yes, they do blink when they lose 80% of their number, the only exception being when a commissar is present.

About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

The most advanced modern body armour is equal or greater to carapace armour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE titanium plates. Like juggernauts from COD

Also, it withstood AP rounds, rounds DESIGNED to pierce this.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Read Scourge the Heretic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't compare a las-gun to a .50 rifle. It is more powerful than modern AR, sure, but a .50 cal can destroy APC, commercial airliners, and bunnies. All in one shot each (except the bunny, you might need 2 or 3)

Sorry but the quote you are giving that says that they are rarely taken from the best of the PDF is a persons opinion in a novel... in the Imperial Guard codex itself it states that the imperial guard is to be drawn from the best of the PDF. Page 5 at the bottom. Note there are rules for conscripts in the codex too... that is what you are talking about... They are NOT the norm for an imperial guard regiment.

And sorry flak armor of the imperial guard = modern flak jacket is total BS. Imperial Guard armor has a 1 in 3 chance of shrugging off Ork Shoota rounds... which are .50 cal rounds at the very least. Orks do not use caseless AP rounds in their guns unlike the imperium in their autoguns. The armor we give our military does NOT do this.

And we have been compairing 100 regular guard vs. 100 modern military not people with experimental weapons that are not in the field... else the guard gets conversion beamers and the like....

The point on them not blinking if they lose 80% (yes with a commissar present) is that they are used to greater losses than our forces. U.S. military will pull back when we start losing too many (except in a special case scenario) the point is the guard is trained not too... and are often used to losing large numbers. It makes a difference in your mindset.

And I was compairing the .50 cal to a Shoota of the Orks not to a lasgun, and their armor does resist Shootas. Although by DH rules all of our armor and weapons would be considered to have the primitive trait which makes it even less effective against their gear.

sekerra wrote:

Sorry but the quote you are giving that says that they are rarely taken from the best of the PDF is a persons opinion in a novel... in the Imperial Guard codex itself it states that the imperial guard is to be drawn from the best of the PDF. Page 5 at the bottom. Note there are rules for conscripts in the codex too... that is what you are talking about... They are NOT the norm for an imperial guard regiment.

And sorry flak armor of the imperial guard = modern flak jacket is total BS. Imperial Guard armor has a 1 in 3 chance of shrugging off Ork Shoota rounds... which are .50 cal rounds at the very least. Orks do not use caseless AP rounds in their guns unlike the imperium in their autoguns. The armor we give our military does NOT do this.

And we have been compairing 100 regular guard vs. 100 modern military not people with experimental weapons that are not in the field... else the guard gets conversion beamers and the like....

The point on them not blinking if they lose 80% (yes with a commissar present) is that they are used to greater losses than our forces. U.S. military will pull back when we start losing too many (except in a special case scenario) the point is the guard is trained not too... and are often used to losing large numbers. It makes a difference in your mindset.

And I was compairing the .50 cal to a Shoota of the Orks not to a lasgun, and their armor does resist Shootas.

The quote I gave was NOT opinion. It was a guardsman complaining about the FACT that he was used to pay taxes.

Shoota rounds are NOT as powerful as those of a .50 cal rifle. They are not as big, are not as aerodynamic, and do NOT move at Mach 3.

as to the experimental weapons, they are past the experimental phase. The only thing preventing them from seeing use in the field is the price. How much do you think a dragonskin vest, or a full body set of dragonskin armour would cost? Seven digits for sure...

As to the not blinking thing,
#1, we do not have commissars, so take an example WITHOUT commissars.

#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

im2randomghgh wrote:

#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

Uh, you must be trolling.

The estimated Allied casualties are around 10000, and around 7000 for the German defenders at Normandy.

Nerivant wrote:
#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

What have you smoking, I must try it to

Allied casualties: 10,000 solders. United States–6,603, of which 2,499 fatal. United Kingdom–2,700. Canada–1,074, of which 359 fatal.
Axis casualties: Estimated between 4,000 and 9,000 casualties.

There are no MILLIONS of solders there...

D-day was ugly but not the worst by far.

I think the Battles of Antietam and Shiloh each had something like 23k casualties each, or upwards of 50k for 2 days of fighting.

Those are numbers that make the IG proud. lots of dakka on those days

im2randomghgh wrote:
#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

Oh wait....you're serious.

No, millions did not die. A million died at Berlin, and a million at Stalingrad, but those were battles that took place over weeks. If millions of soldiers had died in D-Day it would have been considered a disaster, not a major success. Hell, consider that Operation Downfall, the invasion and pacification of Japan was expected to cause a million Allied casualties alone. Even then, that would have been months, not in a single day.

Don't forget, flak armor can stand up to a heavy stubber. Heavy stubbers are roughly equivalent to heavy machine guns, like the .50 calibre. Flak armor can stand up to that relatively well. And I advise you stop quoting FutureWeapons, as entertaining as that show may be, you need to remember that it described weapons that are either in development/beginning deployment, and often are not deployed, as you said, due to expense. If the US Army gets to show up wearting its fanciest armor and using its fanciest guns regardless of cost, the IG does too.

ChrisWWII wrote: If the US Army gets to show up wearting its fanciest armor and using its fanciest guns regardless of cost, the IG does too.

My next post, if this whole "experimental or undeployed gear" thing kept going, was 100 modern soldiers, kitted out regardless of cost, versus 100 Kasrkins to keep it 'even.' It's just getting ridiculous at this point.

Actually I suggest inquisitorial stormtroopers. Not only are they the top two percent of all stormtrooers-- who themselves have superior training to Kasrkin (whom themselves have superior training and experience compared to our spec-ops) while having similar combat experience-- they also have superior equipment provided by the Inquisition.

For example, the Spoor Targeter, which means the weapon literally will never cause friendly fire casualties because it simply won't fire on a friendly target. And then tons of special ammunition and superior weapons...

Melissia wrote:Actually I suggest inquisitorial stormtroopers. Not only are they the top two percent of all stormtrooers-- who themselves have superior training to Kasrkin (whom themselves have superior training and experience compared to our spec-ops) while having similar combat experience-- they also have superior equipment provided by the Inquisition.

For example, the Spoor Targeter, which means the weapon literally will never cause friendly fire casualties because it simply won't fire on a friendly target. And then tons of special ammunition and superior weapons...

100 Storm Troopers with boltguns and requisitioned ammunition... I wonder how one of those scaled ballistic vests would stand up to a Vengeance, Kraken, or Dragonfire round.

For the millions thing, I had a brain fart and was thinking of the war as a whole

Either way, the point is there. Millions of casualties. IG are the only ones who die in seven digits!

Because the Guard are the only human armies who regularly have to fight Ork and Tyranid armies numbering in the seven digits. Even Marines don't typically have to do that.

About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

The most advanced modern body armour is equal or greater to carapace armour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE titanium plates. Like juggernauts from COD

Also, it withstood AP rounds, rounds DESIGNED to pierce this.

And although modern weapons pale in comparison to lasguns, it is still more deadly than most people give them credit for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIzyP6l1AM&feature=related

Basically, this is a bolter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4&feature=relmfu

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&feature=related

The armour withstood A GRENADE

Well isn't this the stupidest post I've seen all day.
Where do I start? At the top.

40k Flak armour for the average guardsmen is better than modern day flak. That's been debated many times, and the winner is, keeping its 100% win rate, 40k flak armour that is given to the average guardsmen. By a fair margin.

Again, dragonskin has been debated in this thread. Get it wet, hot, dirty, it loses all its effectiveness. It's very expensive, very heavy, and will offer less protection than Carapace.
Those AP rounds were designed to pierce solid armour, so yeah, a brand new and yet completely unreliable technology will stand up to rounds not designed to breach it. It's not making anyone a Juggernaut any time in the near future. All those tests are stupid. To get a real gauge on its effectiveness you need to have a human inside it. If it dissipates the impact like they say then they could use it for other purposes, a bullet could well do some serious damage to a human despite the protection.

On no, not another assault rifle, a rifle which is slightly more powerful than previous designs. Still doesn't hold a candle to a lasgun in any way.

Yeah basically, it's another grenade launcher and not a bolter. Similarities end at explosive rounds. It doesn't have rocket propelled rounds, they don't penetrate, they're lobbed and not fired directly and there's only six in a 'clip'. Any boltgun is VASTLY superior to this.

Great, it survived an explosion near it. The M67 is used to propel what is essentially a more effective kind of shrapnel to kill soft targets. That test is stupid if you want to test it against a grenade, the shrapnel has not time to accelerate out. Did you watch to the end? Look at it! It's completely fed! What moronic human is going to wear this into an engagement? For all the reasons stated above and the fact that it doesn't hold up to explosions. If that was a human wearing that suit, his internal organs would be pulped.

You shouldn't believe everything you see on Future Weapons, each test or demonstration is used to present the technology as infallible. Clearly the dragonskin is a prime example of how you shouldn't.

40k flak armor can handle shrapnel far better than that (in fact, in roleplay games that don't use the d6 armor system, it gains a notable bonus against shrapnel, grenades, etc, boosting it up to light carapace level).

Exactly, although in the test, the suit didn't have to deal with shrapnel at all, just an explosion, which ruined the suit and would likely have killed whoever was wearing it.

iproxtaco wrote:Exactly, although in the test, the suit didn't have to deal with shrapnel at all, just an explosion, which ruined the suit and would likely have killed whoever was wearing it.

Would save his squad, though. Kill a man, make a hero.

That's something the IG can get behind.

im2randomghgh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-j7n0AnIGM&NR=1

I really hope this is a joke. Some guy builds a suit of plastic armour in his basement that hasn't been tested against fire arms or explosives and it's some sort of amazing technological advancement? My jacket has more protection that this and it took less time, effort and money to obtain.

im2randomghgh wrote:The quote I gave was NOT opinion. It was a guardsman complaining about the FACT that he was used to pay taxes.

That means he was a conscript... as I said there are rules for that, BUT that is not the norm for a member of the IG... that is per the Codex.
What you are giving is a personal perception of how he personally was brought into the guard. A single guardsman will not know how all guards are brought into the IG, he will know how his regiment was. And there are conscript squads (often reffered to as whiteshields) in IG, that are people that are just taken at random to fill the quota for a planet, but they are a minority in the IG. (Read page 8 of the IG Codex for information on recruitment of IG forces.)

Part of the quote in the second paragraph end of the paragraph of page 8.: (referring to recruitment tithe of planets)

"In any case, should a tithe be of an unacceptable quality, the Imperial Governor's life is forfeit. For this reason the soldiers selected for the Imperial Guard tend to be drawn from the elite of the planet's troops."

Or in the third paragraph at the end, same book and page.:

"It is not unusual for the elite units of a planet to compete for promotion to rhe Imperial Guard. On some of the more savage frontier worlds, these competitions can escalate into affairs that claim as many lives as a small war."

im2randomghgh wrote:Shoota rounds are NOT as powerful as those of a .50 cal rifle. They are not as big, are not as aerodynamic, and do NOT move at Mach 3.

Per the Ork Codex and every other source that has been given on Shoota's, they are considered to be High cal weapons... And as others have stated a heavey stubber IS a .50 cal machine gun, or better, and the guard armor works just fine against it.

im2randomghgh wrote:as to the experimental weapons, they are past the experimental phase. The only thing preventing them from seeing use in the field is the price. How much do you think a dragonskin vest, or a full body set of dragonskin armour would cost? Seven digits for sure...

They are not gear used as standard gear for any military in the world, so they are not production weapons/armor unlike the flak armor and lasgun of the IG. If you want to play those games with the troops, the IG gets armed with bolters with specialized ammo and power armor, or suits of terminator armor. (Or conversion beamers or the like) We were comparing 100 regular military from modern day to 100 regular IG.

im2randomghgh wrote:As to the not blinking thing,
#1, we do not have commissars, so take an example WITHOUT commissars.

#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

im2randomghgh wrote:For the millions thing, I had a brain fart and was thinking of the war as a whole

Either way, the point is there. Millions of casualties. IG are the only ones who die in seven digits!

On #1, even without commissars the IG are known to hold the line against superior numbers and creatures that are better than them in everyway. The Cadians normally do not use commissars as do alot of the other regiments. In some regiments it is considered insulting to need them. And they still hold the line and face numerical opponents. Regular IG hold the line against Tyranid swarms, Chaos Space Marines, Genestealer cults, Heretic militias with daemons, Oks waaaaghhs, and other things that will show absolutely no mercy. They are used to fighting with no rules from the other side... that they have to fight to the last, as there is no surrender. If you surrender you will die in a most gruesome manner from the other side, and if you try to run... it still happens, they just get extra fun in catching you. (This is why the Tau confused people so, an army that would treat prisoners relatively well.)

On #2, others have already gone over the millions mistake so I will leave that be. But let's look at D-day shall we... there were aprox 175,000 allied forces that over-ran 10,000 german forces that were entrenched. So while we lost huge numbers of lives in that battle (aprox 10,000 to the germans losing 4,000-9,000) you are still looking at less than a 10% loss of troops... IG are used to much higher losses percentage wise, and not having that kind of numerical superiority.

So during that war we lost in the seven digits... during wars the IG are in, they are used to losses of ten digit and higher. (They have losses in the billions) They do not fight against creatures that are equal to them... they fight things that can rip humans apart with their bare hands... or move so fast you can barely track them... with armor that just shrugs off their weapons fire half the time.

But they shockingly enough still win most of the time, that is the scary part.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, the point is there. Millions of casualties. IG are the only ones who die in seven digits!

It's quite reasonable for Guard to die it that way. See it this way: how much Guardsman are Guard losing on every Imperium planet in warfare with someone?
When you look at the size of Empire and number of planets they are fighting - they are in fact losing very little than they should.
On Earth, Guard wouldn't have much casualties. In fact, to the OP - Guardsman would win. Better equipment, advanced training, grater zeal, discipline and technology.
5.56 rounds would simply bound of the carapace armor, 7.62 would do some damage ( same as 5.56 AP rounds ). 100 our troops woudn't stand much of a chance against 100 Guardsman ( for Guardsman I am counting Cadians, Vostroyans, Mordians, Elysians, Armageddonians... ). As for our planet, we would have few chance against a planetary invasion fleet...

We're not unified enough to fight off an invasion fleet, so yeah, we'd pretty much be screwed in that case. Just imagine fighting off an invasion fleet and then a suicide bomber blows up near your command complex.

I think one of the big problems here is the massive diversity of the Guard. Some regiments, like the Cadians and Elysians, have enough training, initiative ("advance forward!" doesn't count as initiative, BTW), coordination, and low-level leadership to be equivalent to NATO armies. Other regiments, like the Death Korps and Valhallan, do not, and are roughly equivalent to Soviet-model armies, such as China, Iran, etc. Historically, i.e. in the Six Days War, Yom Kippur War, and First Gulf War, NATO-style armies (broadly termed, those that emphasize lower-level leadership and initiative) have beaten Soviet-style armies. I'm not counting Vietnam or Afghanistan (in the 80s), because those were insurgencies/guerilla wars/wars of revolution/whatever-you-want-to-call-them-as-long-as-it-isn't-"Conventional".

The one circumstance that I can think of that involves an army with strong low-level leadership losing to one that doesn't was World War II. However, Germany was screwed in too many ways to count, so I think that may be the exception that proves the rule.

Nevertheless, my point is that the Guard is so varied that, in addition to regiments that are as well trained as modern militaries, or regiments that are designed to take casualties like Soviet-style units, there are also units like the Salvar Chem Dogs or various Penal Legions; masses of scum that, I'm sure, we all agree would get slaughtered by modern militaries due to the lack of coordination, leadership, and the like. So, when you say, "Guard", what do you mean? I do not think that there is an easy answer to that.

Now, as for the Imperium having a clear material edge, I'm not so sure about that. I do not see how Autoguns are clearly superior to modern assault rifles; in fact, I'm fairly sure that I've read that Guard Autoguns are equivalent to modern assault rifles. Sadly, though, I cannot cite anything specific. Now, modern body armor has a pretty good chance of stopping bullets; I had an ROTC instructor who saw someone take 3 AK rounds (7.62x39) to the chest, fall down, get back up again, and kill the guy who shot him. When the vest doesn't prevent a casualty, well, that's when you fail your armor save.

Last, I think a large problem with comparing anything in 40k to real-life is that the people who write 40k have a pitiful knowledge of military affairs. In my opinion, their knowledge of warfare is gained entirely from movies and video games. So, anything that they write has to be taken with a big ol' grain of salt, if not ignored entirely. One example that springs to mind is that in the Guard codex, there's a quote from some Guard general who is feeling quite the Billy Badass because he has an, "entire battle group of Guard," which numbers over half a million men. Thing is, half a million men isn't that much; any of the three major thrusts of Operation BARBAROSSA (Army Group North, Center, or South) had more than a half-million men in it, and that was in a small portion of the world.

However, if you want to take the putrid writings of GW as gospel, then Imperial vehicles are crap, and would get monkey-stomped by modern vehicles.

I point to the 2001 Chapter Approved, page 78. While describing the Land Raider, it gives its armor as, "91-95mm (note that the composite construction...is equal to 365mm of conventional steel armor."

Now, that's rather handy. It gives us a rough guideline: Armor 14 is equal to between 350 and 400mm of "conventional steel armor." Ok, so what's "conventional steel armor"? My guess is that.....its normal steel armor. I mean, feel free to debate that, but if it was steel + Awesometanium or whatever, it would say it. Steel is steel, and if you put too many other materials in it, it ceases to be steel, and becomes another alloy entirely.

So, we have AV14 equal to between 350mm and 400mm of "conventional steel armor." One of the problems that plagued tank designers were problems with their steel; some tanks or ammunition were built with poor-quality steel, or steel with flaws in it, or whatnot. This is why countries developed Rolled Homogenous Armor. It is, essentially, armor that doesn't suck (fine, armor that doesn't have flaws in it), and because of its manufacture (rolled), is better than previous ways of armoring tanks (such as simply casting them). The problem now, though, is deciding whether the manufacturing processes used by the Imperium are capable of making armor as good as RHA. I feel that giving them the benefit of the doubt, and having Imperial armor be equivalent to RHA, is the way to go, because otherwise Imperial armor would be worse. Now, again, you can debate if RHA is better or worse than Imperial armor, but again, if there's anything funky in the molten steel, it isn't steel, its Awsometanium or whatever. The manufacturing process may add strength, but I fail to see how significant strength can be added (or, at least, significant enough for what I'll be talking about shortly).

So, the Land Raider, and other AV14 vehicles, have the equivalent of 365mm of RHA on them. That's a nice chunk of armor. In World War II, that would be flat-out invulnerable, even to the fabled 88mm.

But, let's take a look at the Worldwide Equipment Guide, released by the US Army Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC).

The Soviet RPG-22 can pop 390mm of RHA, or 1.2 meters of brick. Its older brother, the RPG-7, does 300mm, which means it can pop AV13 easy. The PG-7VL warhead, though, can do 600mm.
The Panzerfaust-III goes through 600mm of RHA as well.
The AT4 (with the HP round) does 600mm.

So, quite a few modern, man-portable anti-tank weapons can go through the Land Raider's AV14. Sure, the RPG-22 might be close, but it still beats it, and the Panzerfaust III and AT4 beat 365mm RHA by a lot. Now, even if you say that Imperial "conventional steel armor" is stronger than RHA (which is, might I add, DAMN STRONG), how much stronger? 50% stronger? Ok, that's 548 (we'll round up) mm equivalent of RHA. AT4 still pops it. Also, the AT-3C Imp (an improved warhead on the AT-3 SAGGAR) can do Imperial armor at half-again as strong, since it can pop 580mm.

What, you insist that Imperial armor is twice as strong as RHA? So, the Land Raider has 730mm equivalent of RHA?

Fine. The "Malyutka-2" warhead (also known as SAGGAR D) hits at 800mm. Some models of the AT-5B (SPANDREL, or Konkurs-M) can do 925mm.

What about tanks? Well, the Leopard II has that M256 120mm smoothbore. The DM43 round can do 450mm at 2,000 meters, and the "US Olin GD120" can do 520 at 2,000 meters. Hell, the 100mm gun mounted on Romanian T-55s can do 380mm at 3,000 meters (but it says the max aimed range is only 2,500 meters....odd). The T-62s 115mm rounds can take out 520mm of RHA (angled at 71 degrees!) at 1,000 meters. Sadly, people who live in the UK, I can't find any figures on the penetration for the Challenger II or Chieftan tanks. I have the feeling, though, that the Challenger II's 120mm will be able to reach out and touch someone quite hard at quite a distance.

What, now you're saying that Imperial steel is thrice, yes, THREE TIMES as strong as RHA? I think you're goin' a wee bit crazy, but my answer is: The French. The Hot 2T laughs at your 1,095mm equivalent of RHA by going through 1,250 mm. Sadly, the later models of the TOW-D can only do 900mm or so of armor. Also sadly, there don't seem to be many figures about the penetration of the M829 (the M829A1 is the "silver bullet" of the First Gulf War), but I recall reading in Tom Clancy's Armored Cav that a round went through the front of one T-62, out the back, and then penetrated another T-62, destroying them both. Still, though, I feel that its important to point out that NATO main battle tanks are ridiculously scary, and can fire on the move, at 30+ miles per hour, and still hit with precision. In the First Gulf War, for example, it took an average of 1.2 rounds to kill an Iraqi tank. That means that, while moving over the ground at about 30 miles an hour, US and British tanks engaged Iraqi tanks at greater than 2,000 meters, and one-shot-killed 4 tanks, with the fifth taking two shots (frankly, I'm prone to believe that the bulk of the double-shots were on tanks that were effectively knocked out, but didn't show external signs like a brew-up, and were thus shot again for good measure.) Now, can even the Vanquisher, with Pask, hit almost 100% of the time? No? Didn't think so. Now, I feel it important to mention that penetration isn't the be-all and end-all. Sure, you can blow a track off, or jam a turret, or damage a gun, but there's also the chance of spalling. Spall is when a projectile does not penetrate armor, but pieces of the armor on the inside of the tank break off and ricochet around. In an enclosed space. With very soft humans. The HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) round is designed to do that, but I have the feeling that an M829 round that hits something at a klick or so per second (1,000m/s) will make some spall.

I'll end this diatribe now, but again, I blame it all on incompetent GW writers. You are more than welcome to debate whether Imperial armor is equivalent to, better, or worse than RHA, but again, Chapter Approved listed it as "conventional steel armor," so there really isn't much you can do to steel before it no longer being conventional steel. And even if you do, what are you going to say, that Imperial steel is, "a bajillion timez strunger den rha!"?

Yeah. Go right ahead.

edit: some formatting stuff, and the bit about spall.

Ogiwan wrote:*snip*

Which is why no one pays attention to the GW figures. They're stupid. Forge World and GW if anything are WW2 buffs, and back in WW2 350 mm of sloped armor would be great. However, they don't pay attention to the modern world so they say '400 mm of steel armor sounds good!' not paying attention to the fact that by that standard, modern weaponry makes a mockery of the armor of the Imperial Guard.

As for the battlegroup quote, I never understood that to be a quote describing an entire crusade force, I understood it to be more of an armygroup that would be deployed to a small~ish world to protect it and/or a minor part of a crusade.

Given that we've been assuming we're fighting an American army, we've been using the equivalent IG force, e.g. the Cadians. Bear in mind that similar vagaries in discipline and command adn control function apply to Earths militaries as well. Sure most of the modern Western style militaries are equivalent, but if you're saying that we have to consider that the IG might send ill disciplined units to Earth, you also have to contend with the fact that they could be fighting similarly ill disciplined armies and militias.

NOt to mention it's been long agreed that a lasgun > a modern assault rifle, and flak armor > body armor. Yes, autoguns and assault rifles are vaguely similar, but a lasgun is more powerful than an autogun. We know this from the roleplaying games. Even saying that it's only as powerful as an autogun still leaves the fact that the lasgun is easy to supply. Every time an autogun shoots, a new bullet has to be made, and delivered for the front line. Every time a lasgun fires, its battery needs to spend some more time recharging in the sun.

As for flak armor, it's clear. Heavy stubber ~= heavy machine gun (.50 cal). Heavy stubbers can not reliably pierce flak armor. Can modern body armor stand up to heavy machine gun fire? I doubt it.

Ogiwan wrote:Now, as for the Imperium having a clear material edge, I'm not so sure about that. I do not see how Autoguns are clearly superior to modern assault rifles; in fact, I'm fairly sure that I've read that Guard Autoguns are equivalent to modern assault rifles. Sadly, though, I cannot cite anything specific. Now, modern body armor has a pretty good chance of stopping bullets; I had an ROTC instructor who saw someone take 3 AK rounds (7.62x39) to the chest, fall down, get back up again, and kill the guy who shot him. When the vest doesn't prevent a casualty, well, that's when you fail your armor save.

Autoguns are, at the least, equal to the old BAR, which fired rounds with roughly 4,000 Joules, twice that of modern assault rifles. The main advancement of infantry rifles over the past century has been in making them lighter, smaller, more accurate, and more reliable, cutting the power down to what's needed to reliably cause enough of an injury to take someone out of the fight. Autoguns are basically assault rifles, yes, but they're much higher caliber than those currently in service, so they hit with significantly more force. A lasgun is somewhere a little above that, only without the ammunition, recoil, air-resistance/wind, or gravity problems a conventional firearm would have.

ChrisWWII wrote:Which is why no one pays attention to the GW figures. They're stupid. Forge World and GW if anything are WW2 buffs, and back in WW2 350 mm of sloped armor would be great. However, they don't pay attention to the modern world so they say '400 mm of steel armor sounds good!' not paying attention to the fact that by that standard, modern weaponry makes a mockery of the armor of the Imperial Guard.

True freaking story. On all accounts.

As for the battlegroup quote, I never understood that to be a quote describing an entire crusade force, I understood it to be more of an armygroup that would be deployed to a small~ish world to protect it and/or a minor part of a crusade.

I didn't interpret it as an entire crusade force either; I just interpreted it as some dude bragging about the combat power he had.

NOt to mention it's been long agreed that a lasgun > a modern assault rifle, and flak armor > body armor. Yes, autoguns and assault rifles are vaguely similar, but a lasgun is more powerful than an autogun. We know this from the roleplaying games. Even saying that it's only as powerful as an autogun still leaves the fact that the lasgun is easy to supply. Every time an autogun shoots, a new bullet has to be made, and delivered for the front line. Every time a lasgun fires, its battery needs to spend some more time recharging in the sun.

I'm going to disagree. Now, I'm not disagreeing about the logistical superiority of the lasgun; I wrote a master's thesis about logistics in the First Gulf, and I will be the first to sing praises about the lasgun's light logistical tail. However, the claim that a lasgun is more powerful than an autogun according to the given stats in the RPG is flat-out unsustainable.

On page 130 of the Dark Heresy book, Lasguns are given the following stats: 100m range, Single and 3-round-burst Rate of Fire, dealing 1d10+3 Energy damage, 0 Armor Penetration, a 60 round clip, the Reliable special rule, and weighing 4 kg.
The stats for the Autogun are as follows: 90m range, Single, 3-round-burst, and 10-round-burst (automatic?) Rate of Fire, dealing 1d10+3 Impact damage, 0 Armor Penetration, a 30 round clip, no special rules, and weighing 3.5 KG.

So, the difference is that....a Lasgun is slightly more accurate, can't do Rock-And-Roll, is reliable, and has double the ammo. Sure, don't get me wrong, the lasgun is a better weapon, but it is not any more powerful than an autogun. Even in the codicies, we see both the Lasgun and Autogun listed as S3 AP-.

So, honestly, if both the 40k rulebook AND the RPG rulebook both list Lasguns and Autoguns as equivalent, where are you getting the argument that the Lasgun is more powerful than the Autogun?

As for flak armor, it's clear. Heavy stubber ~= heavy machine gun (.50 cal). Heavy stubbers can not reliably pierce flak armor. Can modern body armor stand up to heavy machine gun fire? I doubt it.

Sure, modern body armor can't stand up to a .50. However, Ma Deuce (the Browning .50 Caliber Machine Gun) is given as being able to penetrate 22mm of armor with the old-school M1 Ball ammo, and can do 34mm with the SLAP round. Seeing as the same Chapter Approved that I cited in my last post gives the Rhino's minimum armor as 30mm, the M2 is capable of penetrating AV 9 and 10. Now, if something can penetrate over an inch of steel armor, I fail to see how that 5+ flak vest can also protect it. I kinda doubt that S4 AP6 can mess up vehicles, but bounce off of troops.

Oh wait, i can believe that. Its 40k. The writers are clueless.

edit: removing extraneous parenthesis.

Ogiwan

You are correct.
I was going to go into much of what you said in your post. But you beat me to it.

As for the other guns/armor of the IG

Well start with the mighty Heavy Stub Gun: What Cal. is this gun?
Most on these forums seem to think its a .50 cal.<-----why?
I don't think GW has ever said what cal. it is.
It could be a .50 or it could be a .22 cal. chain gun with a fire rate of a 1000 rpm.
Or it could be .30 cal. Vickers they riped off a old by-plane. They just want it to be a .50 cal.

No one knows for sure as GW are retards when it comes to real world comparisons.

I think people just like to think of it as a .50 because there know the .50 is a big gun. And it looks good.
But most things that are blood and bone are not that hard to kill so a .50 is very much overkill.

As for armor: You guys have no idea how many of our casualties come from hits that do not even hit the armor.
Legs,arms,hands,feet,face/head.
And that does not even count all concussions etc.

And going by the armor on the figs in this game,and the artwork/fluff. Just look at the cover of the codex. All those guys storming out of those drop ships would be dead and be dead fast.
They seem to be just landing right on top of who/whatever they are fighting. Not very smart. But that is how they seem to like it.
If they attempted to make a landing like that on our lines in Desert Storm the death toll they would have taken would been Biblical.

Anyway back to armor.
I think they have better armor, I just know it would not work as good in the field as some of you think.
And it dos not seem to stop a stub gun to well. And that is what we would be throwing at them.
So its not all that.

100vs100 We win fighting the Guard.
We have better tanks<---So so much better. You just have no idea really.
We have better support
We have far better command and control
We have far better training,<----FAR FAR Better. Anyone who does not think so has no clue as to how a real army works.


Now this is only for 100vs100 soldiers on the ground,with say a few tanks, and some light support.

Not space warfare.

Ogiwan wrote:Now, as for the Imperium having a clear material edge, I'm not so sure about that. I do not see how Autoguns are clearly superior to modern assault rifles

Larger caliber, faster rate of fire, more reliable and rugged, more accurate at range (it's comparable to a lasgun, which has no recoil and has essentially perfect aim every time with no bullet deviation due to using a projectile which travels at the speed of light), easier to produce, easier to maintain (makes the kalosh look delicate), etc.

Yeah. Go right ahead.

I will.

The thing is, that Chapter Approved book is over a decade old, and, as you noted, it was written buy a bunch of sci-fi nerds who know nothing about real military tactics and equipment, guys who at the time didn't even have wikipedia to look up factoids for their little science fiction project.

It's why using the armor values is rather nonsensical-- a better idea is to use penetration values of weapons. In the lore, there are RPG launchers (these are inferior to the game's missile launchers I should note) used by less well equipped forces. Let's assume that modern anti-tank missile launchers are roughly equivalent to these RPG Launchers' krak rounds. Now, these launchers have roughly a penetration of AP4, converting it from Dark Heresy's AP system to tabletop's AP system (in that it can penetrate carapace armor fully with no protection from a direct hit but power armor still provides protection). This puts the RPG's effectiveness at basically the same as the Imperial Guard's military-grade grenade launcher's krak round.

In comparison, the missile launcher used by the Imperial Guard has a krak round powerful enough that it gives no protection to power armor, and can devastate all but the heaviest of tanks with ease. But it would still have a hard time doing any meaningful damage to a Land Raider or the front (or sides, given the small chance of penetrating AV13) of a Leman Russ. Meanwhile, that RPG's krak round, roughly equivalent to S6 AP4 would be able to take out a modern tank just like modern anti-tank missiles can, putting them at probably about the Chimera's level of armor at best.

In truth, a heavy bolter does just shy of that much damage and penetration but more reliably and at a better rate of fire, the only reason that forces used the RPG is because of its versatility (it can fire any kind of grenade with a properly fitted rocket) and its (and its ammunition's) cheapness compared to the heavy bolter and appropriate ammunition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snogs wrote:Most on these forums seem to think its a .50 cal.<-----why?

It was rather specifically mentioned to be similar to our HMGs/MMGs in Imperial Armour.

Well thats thats stupidest summary I've seen today.

The Imperium has far better tanks. A Leman Russ is faster, better armored and better armed, as well as a whole lot more reliable. It will run off of nearly anything you throw in it's engine.
The Imperium has far better support, if you mean logistics, air and ground amour and portable heavies, in which case they would have superior by a vast margin.
They have better command and control. Officers are the creme de la creme of the Guard, trained to be extremely good commanders.
They have equal or superior training. Each guardsman is taken, trained for about 6 months initially, trained on the journey to his first engagement, and constantly trains throughout his career, and gains experience far greater than anyone on Earth could ever hope to achieve against enemies thousands of time more deadly than a marine. Take the Cadians, a force of billions of better armed, armored, disciplined and trained Special Forces.

The Guard do not fight in space.

Snogs wrote:As for armor: You guys have no idea how many of our casualties come from hits that do not even hit the armor.

I don't? Oh wait. I do.

Flak armor covers more of the body than modern armor does while being almost half the weight of merely the VEST of a set of modern body armor. Keep in mind that flak armor can be woven into a fabric-- providing slightly less protection but provides more mobility. So basically, those shirts and pants of the Imperial Guard? That's ALSO part of flak armor. Those overcoats that DKoK wear? That's flak armor.

I think they have better armor, I just know it would not work as good in the field as some of you think.

Yes it does. Flak armor is EXTREMELY reliable in all terrain, it's part of why the Guard uses it (and the lack of this quality is the reason why the army doesn't use dragonskin).

And it dos not seem to stop a stub gun to well.

Yes it does, in fact, it works SPECTACULARLY well against stub weapons. Stop pulling things out of your backside.

We have better tanks

No we don't.

We have better support

Orbital bombardment > all our support. Imperial Navy > our planes. Imperial Artillery > our artillery. Imperial heavy weapons > our heavy weapons (a heavy bolter alone would destroy not only our infantry but also our vehicles).

We have far better command and control

No we don't. Imperial Guard has better communications equipment than we do, as well as greater discipline.

We have far better training

We can't even keep our soldiers' disciplined enough to keep them from raping eachother. Meanwhile the Imperial Guard has regiments with both genders in it which do not have this problem due to superior discipline and training.

Imperial Armour says a Heavy Stub Gun is "similar" to a HMG/MMG


So you are agreeing with me that it could be a .30 cal vickers
Or a .22 chain feed sweeper.
Or even a 1876 Gatling gun

Or as you say it could be a .50
Blame GW M8

Snogs wrote:Imperial Armour says a Heavy Stub Gun is "similar" to a HMG/MMG

Which at the time of print was most commonly a .50 cal M2 Browning.

Or are you going to continue this line of stupid arguments and insist that they meant some weapon manufactured decades ago which noone used at the time of print?

Hay im just saying, you plop down a .69 cal hand turned gatling gun that can fire 150 rounds a min.

Well that sounds like a heavy stub gun to me.
It will kill you just as dead.

You seem to be the one geting upset
Maybe you should take a break from 40k

Snogs wrote:You seem to be the one geting upset
Maybe you should take a break from 40k

Obstinate ignorance does indeed annoy me a bit, but it is not linked exclusively to 40k. Either way, that modern HMG equivalent does not penetrate flak armor reliably. Have fun with that.

Melissia

Im starting to feel sorry for you.

Here it comes, another one of these 'oh you get too excited by a fictional universe' people. Move along.

Melissia wrote:

Snogs wrote:Imperial Armour says a Heavy Stub Gun is "similar" to a HMG/MMG

Which at the time of print was most commonly a .50 cal M2 Browning.

Or are you going to continue this line of stupid arguments and insist that they meant some weapon manufactured decades ago which noone used at the time of print?

The M2 Browning was designed just before WWI ended, and entered production in the twenties, and has been used ever since. Of course, there are other heavy machine guns in use, some of which aren't nearly as impressive, and I believe the key word there was "similar" which could mean anything from "similar specifications" to "fills a similar role".

Well if he shoe fits.

But for real, I was starting to worry a bit for her/him.

Snogs wrote:Well if he shoe fits.

But for real, I was starting to worry a bit for her/him.

You can't develop an accurate psychological profile of someone based on their posts on a wargaming forum.

Stop acting like you can.

Snogs wrote:Well if he shoe fits.

But for real, I was starting to worry a bit for her/him.

Keep moving.

I just said I feel sorry for someone.

Fan boy/girl thinking is a ugly thing to befall someone.
It corrupts ones thinking and thought patterns as you can so clearly see.

I think that it was Sir Pseudonymous that went so far as to make a psychological profile of someone. Not I.

But you are correct.
So I will try to be more gentle in the future.

But the fan boy/girl love in here is uber nasty

I

Snogs wrote:
100vs100 We win fighting the Guard.
We have better tanks<---So so much better. You just have no idea really.
We have better support
We have far better command and control
We have far better training,<----FAR FAR Better. Anyone who does not think so has no clue as to how a real army works.

Now this is only for 100vs100 soldiers on the ground,with say a few tanks, and some light support.

Not space warfare.

Why are you trolling? We all know how real army works, half of man on this forum served one. And we all watch discovery channel .

We have better tanks? What about Baneblade? We don't have nothing that can even match it's strength ( main cannon, demolisher cannon, 2x Lasscannons, 4x Heavy bolters and 3 more guns ).
We have better support? Guard has shown that can sometimes take an entire world from aliens, mutants and heretics having only light - average casualties. That's because they use ordinance, heavy artillery and infantry in combination with armor support to fight wars. They don't just "charge to death" - that's just wild imagination...
Far better command? Tell that to countless marines killed in Iraq because of friendly fire... IG in most cases have good command structure, going from Commissar to Cornel to the Lord General...
Better Training? ( and I thought I heard everything here... ) I think Cadians have something to tell about this quote: "Any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by the age of 10 was born on the wrong planet". And I think that you have forgotten about Stormtroopers and Kasrkins. And don't forget that US Marines would run like hell when facing an Chaos Champion or a Ork Charge... Guardsman are holding their line because they are far better trained than our troops.

Any man who say that Guardsman ( Cadians, Mordians, Vostroyans ) are poorly trained or that we would kick their ass is either stupid or he is ubertroll.
All our army's couldn't withstand one Ork WARGHHH, Armageddonians push them back, Cadians survived 13 Black Crusades.
Not to mention that their army's are stretched across the galaxy, almost always fighting helpless battles while outnumbered 100:1.
These man are true heroes of 40k. And I will not let some idiot bragging about them telling that US marines who smoke putt and wasting 50.000 bullets on a single enemy solder are better trained than Guardsman that almost never miss and who fight monstrosities and countless horrors while our army's most of the time are fighting poorly trained rebels with no support at all.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snogs wrote:I just said I feel sorry for someone.

Fan boy/girl thinking is a ugly thing to befall someone.
It corrupts ones thinking and thought patterns as you can so clearly see.

I think that it was Sir Pseudonymous that went so far as to make a psychological profile of someone. Not I.

But you are correct.
So I will try to be more gentle in the future.

But the fan boy/girl love in here is uber nasty

I

What people do in their free time in not your, not mine and even not GOD's business.
I love Warhammer 40000, I also like military and cars, I like to read, to sing, to go out, to live... - so by your logic I am a car fanboy?
And please, see that in the future you post more facts and less s***.

LOL

WoW I am so loveing it, keep it coming.

iproxtaco wrote:

About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

The most advanced modern body armour is equal or greater to carapace armour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE titanium plates. Like juggernauts from COD

Also, it withstood AP rounds, rounds DESIGNED to pierce this.

And although modern weapons pale in comparison to lasguns, it is still more deadly than most people give them credit for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIzyP6l1AM&feature=related

Basically, this is a bolter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4&feature=relmfu

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&feature=related

The armour withstood A GRENADE

Well isn't this the stupidest post I've seen all day.
Where do I start? At the top.

40k Flak armour for the average guardsmen is better than modern day flak. That's been debated many times, and the winner is, keeping its 100% win rate, 40k flak armour that is given to the average guardsmen. By a fair margin.

1. Again, dragonskin has been debated in this thread. Get it wet, hot, dirty, it loses all its effectiveness. It's very expensive, very heavy, and will offer less protection than Carapace.
Those AP rounds were designed to pierce solid armour, so yeah, a brand new and yet completely unreliable technology will stand up to rounds not designed to breach it. It's not making anyone a Juggernaut any time in the near future. All those tests are stupid. To get a real gauge on its effectiveness you need to have a human inside it. If it dissipates the impact like they say then they could use it for other purposes, a bullet could well do some serious damage to a human despite the protection.

2. On no, not another assault rifle, a rifle which is slightly more powerful than previous designs. Still doesn't hold a candle to a lasgun in any way.

3. Yeah basically, it's another grenade launcher and not a bolter. Similarities end at explosive rounds. It doesn't have rocket propelled rounds, they don't penetrate, they're lobbed and not fired directly and there's only six in a 'clip'. Any boltgun is VASTLY superior to this.

4. Great, it survived an explosion near it. The M67 is used to propel what is essentially a more effective kind of shrapnel to kill soft targets. That test is stupid if you want to test it against a grenade, the shrapnel has not time to accelerate out. Did you watch to the end? Look at it! It's completely fed! What moronic human is going to wear this into an engagement? For all the reasons stated above and the fact that it doesn't hold up to explosions. If that was a human wearing that suit, his internal organs would be pulped.

5. You shouldn't believe everything you see on Future Weapons, each test or demonstration is used to present the technology as infallible. Clearly the dragonskin is a prime example of how you shouldn't.

1. And what, exactly, is your source that says getting mud on your bullet-proof armour will make it vulnerable? No unsupported claims please.

Also, your second sentence is the most contradictory thing I have ever read. They fired rounds designed to punch through light vehicles at it, and it withstood them all. reliably. Not sure where you got unreliable from...

"All those tests are stupid", nice argument.
The mannequins they use for weapon testing are designed to be a proxy for humans. They would notice damage on the model. You can actually SEE it dissipate the impact, the scales press against each other and absorb the shock wave.

2. Actually it is A LOT more powerful than other assault rifles, but that is beside the point. In my post I even said it couldn't compare to a lasgun, it is just that everyone seems to underestimate what human technology can do. Lasguns are just words on a page, get over it.

3. It is a rapid-firing grenade launcher. Bolters are rapid-firing grenade launchers.

4. You are WAY underestimating the power of a grenade. They can collapse the supports on a house, and have a kill radius o up to 5m, and casualty radius of up to 15m, and a blast radius of up to 250m.

They blast they produce can literally toss bodies about. And they armour didn't surive the grenade, but because of it, the wearers did.

5. I'd much rather use a show that is on discovery channel as a source of information than a bunch of sci-fi writers who never leave their basements, thank you very much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iT7LZnou9U&feature=related

P.S., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ&feature=related

P.P.S., epic fail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Px0wErIeJI&feature=related

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. It is a rapid-firing grenade launcher. Bolters are rapid-firing grenade launchers.

4. You are WAY underestimating the power of a grenade. They can collapse the supports on a house, and have a kill radius o up to 5m, and casualty radius of up to 15m, and a blast radius of up to 250m.

They blast they produce can literally toss bodies about. And they armour didn't surive the grenade, but because of it, the wearers did.

3. No. A bolt is not a grenade.

4. Get your facts straight. The blast radius isn't 250m. Some shrapnel and fragments can get thrown that far, but it is FAR beyond the effect range of a grenade.