Walls wrote:

Gornall wrote:What makes a space wolf a space wolf is the name of the codex being used at the top of the army list. That name, not the paint job or arbitrary fluff rules, tells your opponent what units can be taken in the list.

So, by your reckoning: I can use Firewarriors as my Assault troops, Genestealers on larger bases as terminators, guardsmen as sanguinary guard... as long as it says Blood Angels at the top?

If the bases are the right size and the models are modelled to be WYSIWYG (thats the key) with the codex then go for it. My point was more that the paintjob and decorations are irrelevant when deciding if an army is WYSIWYG.

Nothing.

It's a hobby. Do what thou wilt.

Gornall wrote:

Walls wrote:

Gornall wrote:What makes a space wolf a space wolf is the name of the codex being used at the top of the army list. That name, not the paint job or arbitrary fluff rules, tells your opponent what units can be taken in the list.

So, by your reckoning: I can use Firewarriors as my Assault troops, Genestealers on larger bases as terminators, guardsmen as sanguinary guard... as long as it says Blood Angels at the top?

If the bases are the right size and the models are modelled to be WYSIWYG (thats the key) with the codex then go for it. My point was more that the paintjob and decorations are irrelevant when deciding if an army is WYSIWYG.

I'd agree with you here as well, decorations such as the rabbits feet that SW's decorate themselves with are largely unnecessary. However, I think the problem is the wysiwyg part. Some people don't see an issue if you call a chainsword a 2 hand glaive, and some people would tell you that they clearly aren't the same thing.

Where do you draw the line?

Personally speaking I'm fine with any variation in paint scheme, as long as the models are wysiwyg. However, I adhere to a "strict" wysiwyg I suppose, and I don't accept bolters = storm bolters in anything more than a test game/for fun game at a shop.

Heffling wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:There is an inherent disadvantage to every other race that isn't afforded the same luxury of having so many immediately cross compatible books.

I think this is far more of a myth than fact. If you want to adapt a marine army from one codex to another and make full use of that codexes advantages you need to add or change so many models that, in fact, you've saved little.

Super, super, super disagree. The only things you couldn't run from a new codex are the specialized units, such as Baal Predators or TWC. And with magnetizing, you could easy change your pred to a baal pred just by buying the baal pred kit.

Codex Marines : Codex Space Wolves
Devestators = Long Fangs
Tactical Marines = Grey Hunters
Razorbacks = Razorbacks
Land Speeder Typhoon = LST

You can easily make an army that could hop between one codex to another.

Rubbish.
Long Fangs sarge has many different options that devestators don't
Grey hunters get two specials, CCWs and no heavy - most tactical squads won't be legal, let alone optimized.
Blood claws, different options again - most assault squads won't be legal (blood claws need 15 members to have two specials)
HQ's - all different options
Terminators - completely different options and different standard equipment
etc, etc.

You could use some units from your C:SM army without change but you would not be taking advantage of the change. Some, such as tacticals, are likely not equipped with legal options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heffling wrote:In a tournament level environemnt, you should not be able to hop from one codex to another with only a minimal or no investment.

Why?

People that magnetise can hop between armies within a codex with much less investment than people that don't - is that unfair?


Also, in a tournament enviroment, there's no point hopping between codexes if you're taking things that are sub-optimal in one or both of them just so that you can switch easily. I can use assault squads with 2x flamers in C:SM or C:BA but what's the point? The different options that C:BA has for assault squads is what makes them good.

Then add in the differences in force org - I can take three assault squads and three landspeeder squadrons in C:BA - - how many of those can I use in C:SM? Half, regardless of equipment.

Finally, when you consider that some units are simply much better in some codexes and it becomes hopeless.

Given the expensive nature of the game, I don't see anything wrong with codex hopping.

Scott-S6 wrote:Rubbish.
Long Fangs sarge has many different options that devestators don't
Grey hunters get two specials, CCWs and no heavy - most tactical squads won't be legal, let alone optimized.
Blood claws, different options again - most assault squads won't be legal (blood claws need 15 members to have two specials)
HQ's - all different options
Terminators - completely different options and different standard equipment
etc, etc....

...People that magnetise can hop between armies within a codex with much less investment than people that don't - is that unfair?...

....Finally, when you consider that some units are simply much better in some codexes and it becomes hopeless.

I think you may be contradicting yourself a bit. You acknoledge that people can magnetize to hop within a codex, why wouldn't it be just as easy to magnetize to jump from codex to codex.

Referring to your list of units above, almost every single one of the problems you mention could be solved by magnitizing. Some of the squads wouldn't even have to be magnitized, rather they could simply buy one or two alternate models for a squad.

It is of course nearly impossible to make an army that is optimized (assuming of course, one is even interested in uber-optimization) for two codicies, but by magentizing and/or having a few extra models to represent various codicies, one could easily jump from codex to codex while maintaining competative armies.

Yes, you can make a squad that's legal in all three codexes with only a few extra models but that assumes that you're going to want that squad in all three.

e.g. Assault squads are great in C:BA but rubbish in C:SW and C:SM.

You want to actually give examples of three good marine lists that are only different by a handful of models? It's generally non-marine players that say how easy that is. I don't know any competitive players that do that because it's simply not possible.

Eilif wrote:

dancingcricket wrote:
. I'm not really that interested in the hobby. The only reason I purchased any models is because they're required for tournament play, as is having them painted... and I like playing them....
.... It might be nice to have the models, but I don't see it as a necessity when you really could play with green army men just as easily.

We're both here to have fun. My fun comes from playing, not from modeling and painting. The game is fun, the "Hobby" is meaningless to me.

Thanks for being willing to state what so many people -judging from the color of the armies at my FLGS- seem to feel. Your approach is definitely not mine (I like the spectacle of painted toys and the game is secondary), but I resist the temptation to say "go play magic cards" because playing wargames is a different experience and if that's your approach to gaming, so be it.

I would be interested to know though how far your feeling about the non-necessity of unit-specific miniatures go. Would you actually be willing to play with army men if give the chance? Further, what about doing away with terrain and playing with paper outlines of terrain laid out on the table?

I'm not being sarcstic here, I'm genuinely interested in where the line lies for you and others who feel similarly.

Since you asked, I'll try to give you a decent idea of how little it means to me. When I first started playing 40K, I looked at the models in the codex, and really didn't get any warm feelings, I didn't go "Oh, cool.", or any such. I found the nids mildly interesting in appearance, mostly as they were the only non-humanoids in the entire game, and it was interesting to see an artists interpretation of what an alien should look like. I went with Necrons as the people I was going to be playing with assured me it was the easiest learning curve, and one of the easiest to assemble (pre 5th.) I went out and bought a bag of green plastic army men for $5, and told my friends that I had figures I could use, and was promptly informed that I needed to buy actual GW models. I actually bought green army men fully intending to use them. If there was a complaint about base size I was willing to either make cardboard or paper cutouts of the correct base size, if I really liked the game, maybe I'd buy a bag or two of the bases for a more permanent solution.

As for paper outlines instead of terrain. Yes please. So much easier. Models don't fall over, you can easily denote what kind of cover any terrain gives, write special rules for any terrain if you like. It's easy to change the general outline that way, make new terrain on the spot. Makes it a bit harder to do elevation, but that can be taken care of easily. And if you really want terrain, the closet, kitchen cabinet, and garage can give an awful lot of things to put on the table to act as terrain.