The US's theoretical fighting style would better fit with the Eldar. The actual vehicles weren't as well-protected as your typical Eldar vehicle, though, and it's arguable whether the stabilizers actually worked. So in practice (as opposed to theory) the mobile battle idea didn't work too well...
Eldar tanks have more in common with helicopter gunships, anyway.
For late war Germans, go Necron. Few in number, but often hard to kill. For early war Necron comparisons, you're probably looking at the French instead... (and yes, I know someone's about to start off with the usual French joke. Let it go. The French troops were very motivated. Their problems were at the upper levels. And anyone who mocks them obviously never had to deal with a Char B1 rolling toward them across an open field...).
The British Commonwealth has a lot in common with the IG. Lots of units from all sorts of different backgrounds (Indians, Aussies, etc...), which fits with the IG drawing their regiments from a wide variety of worlds. Lots of mechanization (iirc, the British were the first army to be completely motorized). And some really heavy armor on a couple of their tanks (Matildas during the early period; late model Churchills toward the end).
Melissia wrote:Thing is, just like with Soviet tanks, Imperial tanks are some of the best in the galaxy. They may be mass produced but they're also GOOD.
So who are the Germans then? The guys with the few tanks that kick total ass, but they just don't have enough of them?
My vote is for Eldar.
Space Marines. Overcomplicated, inefficient, and not all that good when it comes down to it. They've also got the "clownishly inept strategists" aspect the Nazis had, too!
Wardragoon wrote:Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?
More like Regular Inf, Kasrkin are Rangers, and Space Marines are SF, Techmarines, are Corp of Engineers, Apothecaries are Medics, and Orks are...the enemy?
Space Marines aren't Special Forces, that's Stormtroopers (whom, I should note, are generally a slight bit superior to Kasrkin, having superior training from the Schola Progenium while having the same general experience and skills).
We have no equivalent to Space Marines.
Techmarines aren't the corps of engineers. I assume you mean Techpriests? Marines are basically nonexistent for the purposes of determining who will fight in any random given battle in 40k, and Techmarines are rare even amongst marines. Apothecaries aren't very much medics, either. That would probably go to the actual medics, or if you need a dedicated force, the Sisters Hospitaller of the Adepta Sororitas.
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Yes we do, soccer moms.
Closest thing we could do is have an army of lesbians and try to sync up 'that time of month' and if you succeed and unleash them during PMS, well you will get close to the same result as when SMs hit a system.
Melissia wrote:Space Marines aren't Special Forces, that's Stormtroopers (whom, I should note, are generally a slight bit superior to Kasrkin, having superior training from the Schola Progenium while having the same general experience and skills).
Bull.
Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".
The Eye of Terror Codex has a blurb from a Commissar, who as we know are required to serve in Stormtrooper units/regular Guard units before getting their shiny cap and bolt pistol, where he calls the methods being used to train the freaking Whiteshields as "barbarous and exceeding anything he experienced in his Schola Progenium training".
The Kasrkin come from that background of training, having "grown up hard". They also do not have the "same general experience" in that Stormtroopers are very rarely serving in standard Guard regiments before they get elevated into the training programs that are used for their specialty. Kasrkin have to go through their stints in the Whiteshields and at least a year or so in a 'standard' Shock Troop Regiment.
If they're not killed off, they're shipped to Cadia's very own version of the 'Schola Progenium' in the Caducus region. Then they'll get the chance to become a Kasrkin.
They don't just get born into it like the Stormtroopers do. Quality varies stupidly from Stormtrooper Regiment to Stormtrooper Regiment, where some will be barely above your average Cadian to some being on par with the Kasrkin.
I should also add that Stormtroopers are trained for more 'covert' operations, while Kasrkin are trained in the more 'overt' operation methodology. Theirs is not to sneak in and plant charges--theirs is to kick the door down and throw in a pipebomb.
Suffice to say, Kasrkin don't often have a high life expectancy. They're not used in operations where they'll usually be extracted afterwards. They're the guys standing at the back, holding off the gibbering hordes while high command and the rest evac to fight another day.
We have no equivalent to Space Marines.
Um, actually we do.
It's called "Special Operations Command".
Precision application of force leveraged by sheer violence and rapidity of the operation.
Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".
Except they are. The quality and standardization at the Schola Progenium consistently produces better recruits than anywhere else in the Imperium.
A brutal training method doesn't necessarily indicate better results.
Kanluwen wrote:Um, actually we do.
It's called "Special Operations Command".
Precision application of force leveraged by sheer violence and rapidity of the operation.
IE stormtroopers.
We still have nothing equivalent to Space Marines.
Melissia wrote:Space Marines aren't Special Forces, that's Stormtroopers (whom, I should note, are generally a slight bit superior to Kasrkin, having superior training from the Schola Progenium while having the same general experience and skills).
Bull.
Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".
The Eye of Terror Codex has a blurb from a Commissar, who as we know are required to serve in Stormtrooper units/regular Guard units before getting their shiny cap and bolt pistol, where he calls the methods being used to train the freaking Whiteshields as "barbarous and exceeding anything he experienced in his Schola Progenium training".
The Kasrkin come from that background of training, having "grown up hard". They also do not have the "same general experience" in that Stormtroopers are very rarely serving in standard Guard regiments before they get elevated into the training programs that are used for their specialty. Kasrkin have to go through their stints in the Whiteshields and at least a year or so in a 'standard' Shock Troop Regiment.
If they're not killed off, they're shipped to Cadia's very own version of the 'Schola Progenium' in the Caducus region. Then they'll get the chance to become a Kasrkin.
They don't just get born into it like the Stormtroopers do. Quality varies stupidly from Stormtrooper Regiment to Stormtrooper Regiment, where some will be barely above your average Cadian to some being on par with the Kasrkin.
I should also add that Stormtroopers are trained for more 'covert' operations, while Kasrkin are trained in the more 'overt' operation methodology. Theirs is not to sneak in and plant charges--theirs is to kick the door down and throw in a pipebomb.
Suffice to say, Kasrkin don't often have a high life expectancy. They're not used in operations where they'll usually be extracted afterwards. They're the guys standing at the back, holding off the gibbering hordes while high command and the rest evac to fight another day.
We have no equivalent to Space Marines.
Um, actually we do.
It's called "Special Operations Command".
Precision application of force leveraged by sheer violence and rapidity of the operation.
I would say now after several of the arguments that Veterans are like Rangers for instance Catachans, wherein stormtroopers in fluff tend to operate like SF do now, SM are in a league of their own.
Kanluwen wrote:But really. I'm not sold on that. If it were true, then I'm pretty sure we'd not see them given nicknames like "Toy Soldiers" or "Glory Boys".
As opposed to Cadians being given nicknames such as meat shield, flashlight and paper shirt?
Nicknames are irrelevant.
Kanluwen wrote:Kasrkin takes on a Daemonhost, unbound, with nothing but a knife in his hand and his throat ripped open.
And Cain took on a full blown daemon with nothing but a rusty bayonet and a bottle of holy water. Mind you, he's Cain, but still.
Kanluwen wrote:But really. I'm not sold on that. If it were true, then I'm pretty sure we'd not see them given nicknames like "Toy Soldiers" or "Glory Boys".
As opposed to Cadians being given nicknames such as meat shield, flashlight and paper shirt?
Nicknames are irrelevant.
Haven't heard those.
Kanluwen wrote:Kasrkin takes on a Daemonhost, unbound, with nothing but a knife in his hand and his throat ripped open.
And Cain took on a full blown daemon with nothing but a rusty bayonet and a bottle of holy water. Mind you, he's Cain, but still.
Uh, guys, hate to break it to you but technically Special Forces SPECIFICALLY means Green Berets, who have a somewhat different mission than 40k stormtroopers.
I think a better comparison would be USMC Force Recon, or possibly SEALs.
Not that any of this actually matters.
DEUS VULT wrote:Uh, guys, hate to break it to you but technically Special Forces SPECIFICALLY means Green Berets, who have a somewhat different mission than 40k stormtroopers.
I think a better comparison would be USMC Force Recon, or possibly SEALs.
iirc, SEALs fall under the unified special forces command these days.
Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers, while "trained by the Schola Progenium" are far from "having superior training".
Except they are. The quality and standardization at the Schola Progenium consistently produces better recruits than anywhere else in the Imperium.
A brutal training method doesn't necessarily indicate better results.
The average Cadian would have better than or equivalent training to Stormtroopers as far as combat preparation goes. Stormtroopers are trained to fulfill a separate, distinct role, one Cadians would be ill-suited for. One may as well be arguing whether Stormtroopers or Commissars are better, when they, despite having comparable levels of skill, are trained to do very different things.
Kanluwen wrote:Um, actually we do.
It's called "Special Operations Command".
Precision application of force leveraged by sheer violence and rapidity of the operation.
IE stormtroopers.
We still have nothing equivalent to Space Marines.
"A tank" is probably a good fit. Extreme force concentration, mobility, and survivability, while being a large, loud target. The only difference is Space Marines can fit into slightly smaller spaces, and magically don't collapse floors by walking on them.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The average Cadian would have better than or equivalent training to Stormtroopers as far as combat preparation goes.
Not a chance.
If by "not a chance" you mean "indubitably, you are correct sah!"--then I agree.
If not:
Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.
Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.
Even a normal human can cause a particularly weak floor to break under them, if space marines are ever able to walk on ground that isn't solid ground or a reinforced surface like a bulkhead or bunker it's miraculous, seeing as how they weigh several tons and all.
Cadians start training when they're children, just as stormtroopers do. They're trained by combat veterans, constantly, until they're 15 or so, at which point they move on to actually fighting in battles, not being considered proper soldiers until they've done that for several years. Stormtroopers wouldn't necessarily be trained by actual veterans, though it is highly likely, and they're unlikely to have seen actual combat before entering the Guard or Inquisition. So Cadians would have an equivalent level of combat proficiency to Stormtroopers, albeit in a non-Spec Ops capacity.
Kanluwen wrote:Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.
Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.
Schola Progenium training does, in fact, include life fire and even real sorties. I should note the example of the one in Cain's Last Stand for one, and that was just commissars, whom are supposed to be keeping morale, not necessarily fighting themselves.
Schola graduates are veterans by the time they graduate... and yes, that'd be age 17-18 or so. In fact, the entire purpose of the Schola Progenium's Stormtrooper courses is to produce Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, whom themselves are pretty much the elite of human forces, right alongside Sisters.
Kanluwen wrote:Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.
Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.
Schola Progenium training does, in fact, include life fire and even real sorties. I should note the example of the one in Cain's Last Stand for one, and that was just commissars, whom are supposed to be keeping morale, not necessarily fighting themselves.
Nothing I've read about that can't be discounted(i.e. Cain, which is meant to be pure propaganda and a parody of a British fiction series) hints at Schola Progenium training including live fire exercises or 'real' sorties.
Schola graduates are veterans by the time they graduate... and yes, that'd be age 17-18 or so. In fact, the entire purpose of the Schola Progenium's Stormtrooper courses is to produce Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, whom themselves are pretty much the elite of human forces, right alongside Sisters.
Bzzt. No it's not.
Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are drawn from the ranks of the Schola Progenium graduates. They're also drawn from Guard veterans and families with a history of servitude with the Inquisition.
I wouldn't call the Sisters "the elite of human forces" by the by. They're motivated, but tend to lack the training to qualify as 'elite'. They also, whether you want to admit it or not, have a very specific role that is similar to the one that the Kasrkin fill(brutal, short range combatants who can take the hits and keep on going).
Kanluwen wrote:(i.e. Cain, which is meant to be pure propaganda and a parody of a British fiction series)
Seriously, is that your damn argument Kan?
Come on.
I could cite "Redemption Squad" if you want.
You know, where the Sisters of Battle are mindcontrolled by Genestealer Hybrids(who take the form of little girls for some reason) and unleash hell upon an Imperial Sector the Tyranids want to conquer.
But if you want that to support your argument, I'm game for it...
I haven't read it. Sounds like bad fan-fiction, and google as well as Black Library's site both have no mention of the novel.
The Ciaphas Cain story isn't just propaganda. In fact, it's (in canon) limited only to Inquisitors and the like, as it contains secrets which are best left unknown to the common populace. Not propaganda, which is intended for the common populace.
Kanluwen wrote:Cadians train in live fire exercises from age 8 onwards. They're serving on the frontlines with the Shock Troops in Whiteshield Platoons by age 13.
Stormtroopers don't. They are usually 16-17 years old by the time they 'graduate' the Schola Progenium and are assigned to a Guard regiment.
Schola Progenium training does, in fact, include life fire and even real sorties. I should note the example of the one in Cain's Last Stand for one, and that was just commissars, whom are supposed to be keeping morale, not necessarily fighting themselves.
Nothing I've read about that can't be discounted(i.e. Cain, which is meant to be pure propaganda and a parody of a British fiction series) hints at Schola Progenium training including live fire exercises or 'real' sorties.
The Cain series is the exact opposite of propaganda, being framed as the actual memoirs of Cain, detailing events in a manner contrary to the more theatrical propaganda of his officially released memoirs. That's not the issue with that instance, though, but that those Schola students happened to be nearing the end of their training when a war broke out, and so wound up fighting in actual battles. I'd imagine they have live-fire exercises as standard, but actually being thrown into a warzone years before being considered an actual soldier is certainly not a standard Schola practice.
Cadia itself is basically one giant fortified military academy, situated in the only permanent warzone in the Imperium as it is. The soldiers it produces have received as much training or more than those of students in the Schola, including extensive genuine combat experience prior to deployment. On the tabletop, actual Cadians would have to be represented with veterans, and their whiteshields would be normal infantry squads; the assumption is that most Guard armies are simply Cadian patterned, so their standard troops are normal infantry squads, veterans are veterans, and emergency conscripts are conscripts (and, realistically, they're completely useless for their cost). The only improvements Stormtroopers have over Cadian standard infantry are their equipment and Spec Ops specific training (insertion, infiltration, etc).
They went into combat before the black crusade reached Perlia, clearing out a Space Hulk full of Tyranids (at the time, they thought it was because of Orks due to the ever-lingering danger of Ork raiders, but I digress), pulling back only when they realized the force was too strong for the deployed PDF unit to manage by itself.
The Whiteshield is also generally kept out of the worst of combat as well, even if they do have combat experience.
Melissia wrote:I haven't read it. Sounds like bad fan-fiction, and google as well as Black Library's site both have no mention of the novel.
The Ciaphas Cain story isn't just propaganda. In fact, it's (in canon) limited only to Inquisitors and the like, as it contains secrets which are best left unknown to the common populace. Not propaganda, which is intended for the common populace.
That's because I may or may not have mistyped the name.
It's "Redemption Corps".
Melissia wrote:They went into combat before the black crusade reached Perlia, clearing out a Space Hulk full of Tyranids (at the time, they thought it was because of Orks due to the ever-lingering danger of Ork raiders, but I digress), pulling back only when they realized the force was too strong for the deployed PDF unit to manage by itself.
The Whiteshield is also generally kept out of the worst of combat as well, even if they do have combat experience.
Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers, and b) not on a Space Hulk, but a minor listening post or mining station, I forget which, which had been hit by some Mycetic spores drifting in space after the Tyranids fleet had been destroyed. Those were extraordinary, expected-to-be-low-intensity conditions. They can be taken as neither representative of standard training, nor as comparable to what whiteshields, who are for all intents and purposes as trained or better than full fledged regiments from most other worlds, are thrown into.
What a fun thread. I especially enjoyed the three pages on whether or not a lasgun is armor piercing. I think some of you may just have to learn to accept that 40K fluff is often contradictory.
As far as analogies go? No, Imperial Guard are not analogous to Rangers. The IG isn't specialized light infantry. The IG is analogous to the Army as a whole. There might be units of Guard analogous to Rangers, but the Guard as a whole isn't.
As role analogues go, that's the way it breaks down. Things get a little more hazy if you want to try and come up with analogies for 'elite' status. The Guard aren't the elite of the Imperium. Are guard cannon fodder? Some regiments are, some aren't. Some get treated that way, some don't. They make some heroic last stands, they win some improbable battles, they get wiped out to a man through incompetence and cowardice. It runs the gamut, and you'll find examples of them in the fluff.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers
... both are trained at the Schola Progenium.
Which is strange becuase I can't recall Cain making mention of Stormtrooper recruits, even though Commissar Cadets and Novice Sisters were present.
@Sir P: The quality of Whiteshields no doubts varies enormously, as do the Guardsmen themselves. Though I don't think they are trained to a greater standard than most other 'typical' IG regiments.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Those were a) Commissars-in-training overseeing PDF forces, not Stormtroopers
... both are trained at the Schola Progenium.
Which is strange becuase I can't recall Cain making mention of Stormtrooper recruits, even though Commissar Cadets and Novice Sisters were present.
@Sir P: The quality of Whiteshields no doubts varies enormously, as do the Guardsmen themselves. Though I don't think they are trained to a greater standard than most other 'typical' IG regiments.
Uhh I seem to recall in the second book he reminisces about the pranks the two groups pulled on each other at the Schola Progenium
Indeed he did. The Stormtroopers were the ones who pulled off the sneakiest pranks, but the Sisters were the ones who were downright meanest in sports, seeming to think that intentionally sending an opponent in a game of 40k-rugby to the medicae and out of the game is a perfectly acceptable tactic.
Melissia wrote:Indeed he did. The Stormtroopers were the ones who pulled off the sneakiest pranks, but the Sisters were the ones who were downright meanest in sports, seeming to think that intentionally sending an opponent in a game of 40k-rugby to the medicae and out of the game is a perfectly acceptable tactic.
Not only acceptable, it was their preferred method of winning.
purplefood wrote:
PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...
The only good PDF I know are Ultramar PDF, Cadia PDF, Terra PDF, Armageddon PDF.
Imperial Guard are varying from modern day elites to almost Space Marines. It is an army with 10.000 years of combat experienced, we have nothing to compare it to that.
Stormtroopers are the definition of solder...
Yes, but it's not as if every single soldier has personally had 10,000 years experience, plus based on the HH books, methinks the Imperial Army was better than the Imperial Guard. And standard Imperial Guard do not have anything like the discipline or training that modern elites have.
If you recall, in the Gaunt's Ghosts ~Omnibus (the Lost) one trooper [forget his nickname] tried to fix a bayonet to a rocket launcher cause he thought it'd be funny.
They are well trained, but are not trained to a higher standard than modern troops (in most developped countries i.e. US, Canada, Britain etc.). There are limits to what the human body can achieve, after all.
Also, it would be pointless to compare Rangers (or any other special forces i.e. SAS, JTF2 etc) to stormtroopers, considering they fulfill different roles. Stormtroopers are elite combat troops (mostly) whereas Rangers are special operations, and rarely take place in large scale assaults.
And since this seems to be steering in the direction of a previous thread (Modern Army vs. IG) I will resurrect the main point: flak armour. It is NOT very different from normal modern armour http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_armour
They are well trained, but are not trained to a higher standard than modern troops (in most developped countries i.e. US, Canada, Britain etc.). There are limits to what the human body can achieve, after all.
And since this seems to be steering in the direction of a previous thread (Modern Army vs. IG) I will resurrect the main point: flak armour. It is NOT very different from normal modern armour http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_armour
Yes, they are.
And no, flak armor is more protective, lighter, offers more mobility, and more coverage, than modern armor.
purplefood wrote:
PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...
The only good PDF I know are Ultramar PDF, Cadia PDF, Terra PDF, Armageddon PDF.
Imperial Guard are varying from modern day elites to almost Space Marines. It is an army with 10.000 years of combat experienced, we have nothing to compare it to that.
Stormtroopers are the definition of solder...
Yes, but it's not as if every single soldier has personally had 10,000 years experience, plus based on the HH books, methinks the Imperial Army was better than the Imperial Guard. And standard Imperial Guard do not have anything like the discipline or training that modern elites have.
If you recall, in the Gaunt's Ghosts ~Omnibus (the Lost) one trooper [forget his nickname] tried to fix a bayonet to a rocket launcher cause he thought it'd be funny.
They are well trained, but are not trained to a higher standard than modern troops (in most developped countries i.e. US, Canada, Britain etc.). There are limits to what the human body can achieve, after all.
Also, it would be pointless to compare Rangers (or any other special forces i.e. SAS, JTF2 etc) to stormtroopers, considering they fulfill different roles. Stormtroopers are elite combat troops (mostly) whereas Rangers are special operations, and rarely take place in large scale assaults.
And since this seems to be steering in the direction of a previous thread (Modern Army vs. IG) I will resurrect the main point: flak armour. It is NOT very different from normal modern armour http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_armour
http://skippyslist.com/list/ read this, you will read some soldiers do crazy fun and stupid stuff out of boredom, so th bayonet on a rocket launcher is not surprising, and by rangers I was meaning more of those involved in ww2 and vietnam
There's a saying first uttered by a US General when question as to why his men's rifles were in such poor condition.
He Said: "if you place a Soilder, an Anvil and a steel wedge into a room and come back an hour later, the anvil will be broken. The reason being: Soilder just have to feth with gak."
Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.
Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.
And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.
Spoiler:
Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.
I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.
And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.
And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick
a, 1st and Only
b, Terraxians
c, Cadians
d, Catachans
c again, Armageddon Steel Legions
Other than that though...
Or the millions of other regiments we don't have the specifics for.
Just because they're not named doesn't mean they're worse than other Imperial Guard regiments.
No, these are named because they are the best in the Imperium.
Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.
I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.
And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.
And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])
Well Iirc US army basic training is 9 weeks, but thats before all the other training classes
Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.
Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.
And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.
Spoiler:
Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.
I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.
And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.
And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick
a, 1st and Only
b, Terraxians
c, Cadians
d, Catachans
c again, Armageddon Steel Legions
Other than that though...
Or the millions of other regiments we don't have the specifics for.
Just because they're not named doesn't mean they're worse than other Imperial Guard regiments.
No, these are named because they are the best in the Imperium.
Did you click the link, because it never says that.
Second, what is "The Lost?" If you're going to refer to something, at least use it's proper name.
Third, two weeks of training to join the IG? What about in transit?
Fourth, oh, really? They're all the best? They're all exactly equal to each other in skill, equipment, and manpower? They're examples of the best. They're not the only regiments that can kick ass and take names.
Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.
Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.
And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.
Spoiler:
Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.
I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.
And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.
And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])
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Nerivant wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:If you want a regiment that is (in terms of skill) analogous to spec. forces, then either pick
a, 1st and Only
b, Terraxians
c, Cadians
d, Catachans
c again, Armageddon Steel Legions
Other than that though...
Or the millions of other regiments we don't have the specifics for.
Just because they're not named doesn't mean they're worse than other Imperial Guard regiments.
No, these are named because they are the best in the Imperium.
Did you click the link, because it never says that.
Second, what is "The Lost?" If you're going to refer to something, at least use it's proper name.
Third, two weeks of training to join the IG? What about in transit?
Fourth, oh, really? They're all the best? They're all exactly equal to each other in skill, equipment, and manpower? They're examples of the best. They're not the only regiments that can kick ass and take names.
1. Yes, it does.
2. The Lost is the name of the single best BL Omnibus that has been written to date (Dan Abnett, that says it all)
3. Training in transit is the same as how modern military trains between engagements. What, did you think they admitted you to the army then you never have to train ever again?
4. Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point? In The Lost, the Dev Hetra regiment didn't want to fire their weapons because they thought it would contradict some planetary tradition or some such. And the Hauberkans were fleeing and running over friendlies in their rush to escape.
The Departmento Munitorum isn't picky. In the slightest.
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Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Melissia wrote:Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.
Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.
No, it was Holy, I forget his name, her "son"
Who wasn't ever really a civilian to begin with, as he was raised in the Guard.
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im2randomghgh wrote:Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.
No, I don't intend to read your craptacular little source with its author making gak up.
I have better sources, you know, ones written by Games Workshop authors, not random gakhead on the internet number whateverthehell.
#1 it has sources.
#2 If your father is in the military, you are still a civilian. It is a fact.
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Wardragoon wrote:
Melissia wrote:Err, she only had to go through two weeks because she was already a veteran of a very long war that lasted many, many weeks.
Training an Irregular up to Regular status is different from training a full on civilian to Regular status.
Now I havent read the novel however I am guessing they were pressed for manpower as well so they trained them as much as time permitted
2. The Lost is the name of the single best BL Omnibus that has been written to date (Dan Abnett, that says it all)
3. Training in transit is the same as how modern military trains between engagements. What, did you think they admitted you to the army then you never have to train ever again?
4. Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point? In The Lost, the Dev Hetra regiment didn't want to fire their weapons because they thought it would contradict some planetary tradition or some such. And the Hauberkans were fleeing and running over friendlies in their rush to escape.
The Departmento Munitorum isn't picky. In the slightest.
1. Uh, no, it doesn't. Seriously, this is ridiculous.
3. You didn't answer, or understand, my question.
4. So you stick by "only the named regiments are any good."
2. The Lost is the name of the single best BL Omnibus that has been written to date (Dan Abnett, that says it all)
3. Training in transit is the same as how modern military trains between engagements. What, did you think they admitted you to the army then you never have to train ever again?
4. Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point? In The Lost, the Dev Hetra regiment didn't want to fire their weapons because they thought it would contradict some planetary tradition or some such. And the Hauberkans were fleeing and running over friendlies in their rush to escape.
The Departmento Munitorum isn't picky. In the slightest.
1. Uh, no, it doesn't. Seriously, this is ridiculous.
3. You didn't answer, or understand, my question.
4. So you stick by "only the named regiments are any good."
They are all decent. Only the named ones are exceptional.
Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"
Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.
Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.
A direct quote from Dark Heresy: "Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."
And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.
Melissia wrote:Indeed he did. The Stormtroopers were the ones who pulled off the sneakiest pranks, but the Sisters were the ones who were downright meanest in sports, seeming to think that intentionally sending an opponent in a game of 40k-rugby to the medicae and out of the game is a perfectly acceptable tactic.
Yes, he mentioned them in his own training as a Cadet, but I don't think he did in Cain's Last Stand, at the Schola Progenium where he was teaching the Cadets. I just wonder if a Schola Progenium necessarily entails all three sections (Commissar/Stormtrooper/Sororitas).
im2randomghgh wrote:
They are all decent. Only the named ones are exceptional.
Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"
They can't name every exceptional regiment. You should know that.
Yeah, still doesn't say that it is equal to modern armor in protection.
Primitive compared to what, power armor? TDA? It's primitive to their level of technology.
Resembles a modern day vest in it's protective ability? So, it protects them from weapons that would tear them in half, the same way that our armor protects us from weapons that would put a relatively small hole in us.
Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.
Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.
Then look at the sources, find an online pdf containing them, and read it yourself. Sheesh, you automatically assume you are right simply because you have an opinion, even when I provide sources that themselves have canon sources that contradict you.
Are you doing this on purpose or just trolling?
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Nerivant wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
They are all decent. Only the named ones are exceptional.
Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"
They can't name every exceptional regiment. You should know that.
Yeah, still doesn't say that it is equal to modern armor in protection.
Primitive compared to what, power armor? TDA? It's primitive to their level of technology.
Resembles a modern day vest in it's protective ability? So, it protects them from weapons that would tear them in half, the same way that our armor protects us from weapons that would put a relatively small hole in us.
Yes, it DOES say it is equal in protection, hence the bold.
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Seaward wrote:I think the guard are probably about as well-trained as modern-day first-class armies.
Why? I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise.
No one's going to win this argument, by the way, and not least of all because of some of the forumites involved in it.
Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.
To repeat myself:
Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy: "Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."
And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.
That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.
And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.
Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.
Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.
A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."
And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.
That doesn't refute the point he's making at all really. It isn't dissimilar to modern body armour, if slightly more effective.
Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.
To repeat myself:
Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."
And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.
That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.
And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.
Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.
P.S. did you happen to see my SoB thread before it was locked?
Which means exactly nothing. Just because they put a little number next to a statement (And they didn't) and then put a citation on the bottom doesn't mean that they actually USED that source in particular.
Just as you have always been on this topic, you are wrong.
A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."
And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.
That doesn't refute the point he's making at all really. It isn't dissimilar to modern body armour, if slightly more effective.
The point he's making is that they're equal. They're similar in that they fill the same role (protection) but the effectiveness of flak armor is completely beyond what we have.
Melissia wrote:That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.
im2randomghgh wrote:Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.
No armor is "proof" against anything. Lasguns can get through Terminator armor.
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Emperors Faithful wrote:
Melissia wrote:That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.
Now where are you getting this from?
Dark Heresy and BL novels from the Guard's point of view.
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Emperors Faithful wrote:That doesn't refute the point he's making at all really. It isn't dissimilar to modern body armour, if slightly more effective.
Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.
To repeat myself:
Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."
And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.
That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.
And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.
I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body. I suspect I'll be ignored, as half-truths seem to be the order of the day 'round these parts.
If the proof is the weight, that's slim proof. That's not that much different from a lot of the modern armors that make use of composite/ceramic plating - which are, incidentally, pretty damn good at stopping modern "heavy assault rifle" (whatever those are) rounds.
Nerivant wrote:
The point he's making is that they're equal. They're similar in that they fill the same role (protection) but the effectiveness of flak armor is completely beyond what we have.
im2randomghgh wrote:Yes, it does. "Flak Armour is a light and relatively primitive form of body armour used by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. It usually consists solely of a breastplate, shoulder pauldrons, knee plates, greaves and helmet and is most commonly used in Imperial Guard Regiments. It provides little protection against heavy weapons but resembles a modern day bulletproof vest in its protective ability"
Looks like he's arguing that they're similar. Which they are, really, if superior.
Yes, Im doing this on purpose, as I have no respect for you as an intellectual.
To repeat myself:
Melissia wrote:A direct quote from Dark Heresy:
"Comprised of layers of ablative and impact-absorbent material, flak armor is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts."
And similarly, from the same source, a full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- helmet, gauntlets, shoulders, vest/jacket, greaves/boots, etc-- weighs 11 kg. The Improved Outer Tactical Vest weighs 18 kg.
That's the vest alone. Not including the helmet, no arm or leg protection either. And this is effective enough that most shots by autoguns-- which use high caliber caseless rounds that are slightly bigger than our 7.62x39mm caliber used by heavy assault rifles today (something most modern body armor is generally ineffective against)-- have no effect on the body, not even bruising, and many shots that do do damage just do things such as bruise, break ribs, etc, taking a truly spectacular hit to get through flak armor enough to give a one shot kill.
And then they're also effective against energy weapons, which the IOTV is not proven against.
I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body. I suspect I'll be ignored, as half-truths seem to be the order of the day 'round these parts.
If the proof is the weight, that's slim proof. That's not that much different from a lot of the modern armors that make use of composite/ceramic plating - which are, incidentally, pretty damn good at stopping modern "heavy assault rifle" (whatever those are) rounds.
7.62x39 is the round in an ak47, and remember fluff always contradicts itself.
Dark Heresy and BL novels from the Guard's point of view.
Dark Heresy and BL novels are written by incompetant fools with absolutely no understanding of the 40k universe!
See? Two can play at that. Now can you point out which BL novels describe autoguns as being far heavier and more powerful than modern small arms weaponry?
Wardragoon wrote:
7.62x39 is the round in an ak47, and remember fluff always contradicts itself.
Yeah, I'm familiar with what an AK-47 shoots. Not familiar with what a "heavy assault rifle" is. 7.62mm's a battle rifle round.
And yes, fluff does indeed always contradict itself. At least it gives people something to pound out their rage over, neh?
haha true that, but I think heavy assault rifle round is the same as battle rifle, but I am not certain
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Emperors Faithful wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Now where are you getting this from?
Dark Heresy and BL novels from the Guard's point of view.
Dark Heresy and BL novels are written by incompetant fools with absolutely no understanding of the 40k universe!
See? Two can play at that. Now can you point out which BL novels describe autoguns as being far heavier and more powerful than modern small arms weaponry?
Okay guys if you cant play nicely please dont respond, we don't need this to turn into a yelling match
Look, the game rules themselves give an ample example of how effective flak armor is compared to modern armor.
A heavy stubber is described as being relatively similar to a modern heavy machine gun like the Browning M2. Heavy stubber rounds can be stopped by flak armor. I'd like for someone to tell me if modern body armor can do the same thing. The answer is no, it can not.
Therfore, flak armor is tougher than current body armor.
Edit:
I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.
And Wardragoon, stop playing a mod. You can ask for people to calm down, but don't start acting like the Modquisition.
Seaward wrote:I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body.
I already answered that, in the post above yours. But that aside, flak armor is made up of highly impact absorbent material, that's part of what it does. The way it is set up in many sets of armor likely also spreads the impact over a wider area, but that's more of a nature of a specific type of flak armor (there's many kinds I should note, some regiments preferring lighter flak armor for mobility, such as the Tanith).
And modern body armor isn't actually all that good against many kinds of weapons. It's more designed to protect from shrapnel and etc, which is the main cause of injury in war. The IOTV is better than older armor in that it can protect against 9mm handguns and its hard points (not the softer armor, unlike flak armor) can protect against some rifle rounds.
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Emperors Faithful wrote:See? Two can play at that.
Oh, because something written by GW is not canon (the Dark Heresy corebook was written by GW and then given to FFG to support), but something written by a random dude on the internet with no affiliation to GW is?
im2randomghgh wrote:Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.
No armor is "proof" against anything. Lasguns can get through Terminator armor.
Yes actually. In Flight of the Eisenstein (or one of the others, my memory is a bit blurred in terms of title-to-event relations) a human fired shots from her pistol at an astartes despite knowing that "the armour was completely immune against it" to distract him. And lasguns CAN damage targets in terminator armour, but they can't penetrate. You can hit a terminator in the joint, or in the rebreather grille, but that is different from "getting through". Getting through would be if it went clean through the breast plate.
Seaward wrote:I'd like to see the source for the assertion that autogun rounds have no effect on the body.
I already answered that, in the post above yours. But that aside, flak armor is made up of highly impact absorbent material, that's part of what it does. The way it is set up in many sets of armor likely also spreads the impact over a wider area, but that's more of a nature of a specific type of flak armor (there's many kinds I should note, some regiments preferring lighter flak armor for mobility, such as the Tanith).
Dark Heresy again, eh? Figures.
And modern body armor isn't actually all that good against many kinds of weapons. It's more designed to protect from shrapnel and etc, which is the main cause of injury in war. The IOTV is better than older armor in that it can protect against 9mm handguns and its hard points (not the softer armor, unlike flak armor) can protect against some rifle rounds.
Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.
ChrisWWII wrote:Look, the game rules themselves give an ample example of how effective flak armor is compared to modern armor.
A heavy stubber is described as being relatively similar to a modern heavy machine gun like the Browning M2. Heavy stubber rounds can be stopped by flak armor. I'd like for someone to tell me if modern body armor can do the same thing. The answer is no, it can not.
Therfore, flak armor is tougher than current body armor.
Tabletop rules are by no means a solid standing to base off assumptions on the background. Going by that plasma guns in BL books should explode and kill the user every half-a-dozen shots, which they don't.
im2randomghgh wrote:Look to where I added bold. Effective. Effective. NOT PROOF AGAINST. NOT IN ANY WAY IS IT PROOF AGAINST THESE THINGS.
No armor is "proof" against anything. Lasguns can get through Terminator armor.
Yes actually. In Flight of the Eisenstein (or one of the others, my memory is a bit blurred in terms of title-to-event relations) a human fired shots from her pistol at an astartes despite knowing that "the armour was completely immune against it" to distract him. And lasguns CAN damage targets in terminator armour, but they can't penetrate. You can hit a terminator in the joint, or in the rebreather grille, but that is different from "getting through". Getting through would be if it went clean through the breast plate.
Remember depending on fluff termies can be stepped on by titans and live.
im2randomghgh wrote:In Flight of the Eisenstein (or one of the others, my memory is a bit blurred in terms of title-to-event relations) a human fired shots from her pistol at an astartes despite knowing that "the armour was completely immune against it" to distract him.
That was because she was mistaken in believing that.
Marines are perceived as unbeatable gods of battle that cause people to soil their pants. And yet, they're still beaten.
ChrisWWII wrote:Look, the game rules themselves give an ample example of how effective flak armor is compared to modern armor.
A heavy stubber is described as being relatively similar to a modern heavy machine gun like the Browning M2. Heavy stubber rounds can be stopped by flak armor. I'd like for someone to tell me if modern body armor can do the same thing. The answer is no, it can not.
Therfore, flak armor is tougher than current body armor.
Edit:
I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.
And Wardragoon, stop playing a mod. You can ask for people to calm down, but don't start acting like the Modquisition.
Sorry this thread keeps on heating up, and its an interesting topic and I don't want the real mod's to close the thread
Seaward wrote:Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.
As Is aid, the hard parts of the armor can stop some rifle caliber rounds (armor piercing rounds can potentially get through, as can particularly high velocity rounds). The soft parts cannot.
ChrisWWII wrote:
I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.
Well, actually (sorry for revisiting) Dragonskin (despite falling apart in poor conditions) was level 3 protection in optimal conditions and could stop assault rifles (AK47, M16A2) and a grenade. Regular armour for troops is level 4. They can stop most assault rifles.
Emperors Faithful wrote:See? Two can play at that.
Oh, because something written by GW is not canon (the Dark Heresy corebook was written by GW and then given to FFG to support), but something written by a random dude on the internet with no affiliation to GW is?
I was talking more about your refusal to acknowledge the IG codex...which is sort of written by GW.
You have a habit of picking and choosing your sources for your argument and ignoring any contradictory evidence.
Seaward wrote:Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.
As Is aid, the hard parts of the armor can stop some rifle caliber rounds (armor piercing rounds can potentially get through, as can particularly high velocity rounds). The soft parts cannot.
This from the military's own testing.
The "soft parts" are why lasguns are physically capable of damaging terminators. Otherwise they would be literally (as opposed to practically) useless vs. terminators.
ChrisWWII wrote: I'm pretty sure that by 'heavy assault rifle', people meant that assault rifle bullets tend to be beyond what most body armor can take reliably.
Well, actually (sorry for revisiting) Dragonskin (despite falling apart in poor conditions) was level 3 protection in optimal conditions and could stop assault rifles (AK47, M16A2) and a grenade.
Once again, dragonskin sucks, that's why the military doesn't' use it. It could only reliably stop one or two bullets before breaking down. Fine for police, FBI, etc, but not for an army.
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Seaward wrote:Well, fortunately, Real Life fluff contradicts that assertion. We had body armor that'd stop AK rounds at least as far back as '93. It's the reason a lot of guys who were in Mogadishu at the time are still alive.
As Is aid, the hard parts of the armor can stop some rifle caliber rounds (armor piercing rounds can potentially get through, as can particularly high velocity rounds). The soft parts cannot.
This from the military's own testing.
The "soft parts" are why lasguns are physically capable of damaging terminators. Otherwise they would be literally (as opposed to practically) useless vs. terminators.
And yet, flak greatcoats such as those used by the DKoK still provide the same general level of protection as the apparently harder flak armor used by Cadians.
Not all armors are the same. Flak armor doesn't necessarily operate on the exact same principles as modern body armor. Dragonskin as noted above is a good example. It's essentially a very primitive Mesh Armor, similar to that used by the Eldar, which reacts to impacts and etc very differently from "normal" modern body armor.
im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.
I always thought thats what Power Armor was In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?
Emperors Faithful wrote:See? Two can play at that.
Oh, because something written by GW is not canon (the Dark Heresy corebook was written by GW and then given to FFG to support), but something written by a random dude on the internet with no affiliation to GW is?
I was talking more about your refusal to acknowledge the IG codex...which is sort of written by GW.
You have a habit of picking and choosing your sources for your argument and ignoring any contradictory evidence.
You're not the only one who's noticed that. I'm particularly amused by the cognitive dissonance it takes to state, in this thread, that game stats don't matter in terms of fluff, and using game stats in another to prove a fluff point.
I'll try one more time: fluff contradicts itself all the time.
im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.
I always thought thats what Power Armor was In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?
No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.
im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.
I always thought thats what Power Armor was In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?
No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.
im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.
I always thought thats what Power Armor was In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?
No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.
im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.
I always thought thats what Power Armor was In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?
No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.
...me or Melissia?
Everybody, myself included. Some are just more passionate than others.
Hell, I'm pretty sure I saw sometime trying to be intellectually elite in this thread about fictional toy soldiers in a fictional toy universe.
im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.
I always thought thats what Power Armor was In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?
No one can prove one way or another what IG troop quality is compared to modern-day armies, thus they decided to try and prove something that they thought they did have evidence for. The fact that they were wrong has yet to dissuade them.
...me or Melissia?
Everybody, myself included. Some are just more passionate than others.
Hell, I'm pretty sure I saw sometime trying to be intellectually elite in this thread about fictional toy soldiers in a fictional toy universe.
Wait are you telling me the Emprah does not protect
Tabletop rules are by no means a solid standing to base off assumptions on the background. Going by that plasma guns in BL books should explode and kill the user every half-a-dozen shots, which they don't.
There are some things which are abstractions, and some which aren't.
For example, one 'shot' in the tabletop game is an abstraction of shooting a lot in the 'real' world. One shot from a plamsma gun probably represents a burst of fire, or whatever. The 'Get's hot!' rule is an abstraction representing the instability of plasma guns.
However, AP is a different story. We know that the AP power of a plasma gun means it is reasonably powerful enough to get through even the toughest armor fairly reliably. The fact that the Guard gets to take armor saves against heavy stubbers implies that their is a significant chance for flak armor to stop a bullet from a heavy machine gun, which outclasses modern body armor.
Am I saying that flak armor will stop 1 in 3 heavy machine gun bullets? No. I'm saying that flak armor has the potential to stop heavy machine gun bullets, which is enough to say that flak armor has superior protective ability.
Tabletop rules are by no means a solid standing to base off assumptions on the background. Going by that plasma guns in BL books should explode and kill the user every half-a-dozen shots, which they don't.
There are some things which are abstractions, and some which aren't.
For example, one 'shot' in the tabletop game is an abstraction of shooting a lot in the 'real' world. One shot from a plamsma gun probably represents a burst of fire, or whatever. The 'Get's hot!' rule is an abstraction representing the instability of plasma guns.
However, AP is a different story. We know that the AP power of a plasma gun means it is reasonably powerful enough to get through even the toughest armor fairly reliably. The fact that the Guard gets to take armor saves against heavy stubbers implies that their is a significant chance for flak armor to stop a bullet from a heavy machine gun, which outclasses modern body armor.
Am I saying that flak armor will stop 1 in 3 heavy machine gun bullets? No. I'm saying that flak armor has the potential to stop heavy machine gun bullets, which is enough to say that flak armor has superior protective ability.
Ah, but as was pointed out earlier in this thread, that AP value doesn't really mean anything in terms of fluff. After all, the luminaries gracing us with their presence in the thread tell us that a lasgun's actually an AP 3 or 4 weapon, it's just that nobody uses it on the right power setting. So, by the same token, maybe those stubbers are just firing subsonic rounds, and flak jackets can't really protect against true stubber fire?
I'm not actually suggesting that, of course, it's just that the Guard lasrifle fanwanking earlier blew my mind.
With the lasgun debate, you need tor emember that there is a certain reliability inherrent in the armor penetration value. Can a lasgun pierce power armor? If you shoot a Marine in the helmet (which is weaker than the breast plate), at point blanks rage with a lasgun at full power? Sure it'll penetrate. But at more common battlefield ranges? At more standard power? Yes, it'd have a much lesser chance to penetrate.
Keep in mind, that at full power, at close range with little to diffuse it and a full power pack? A lasgun can probably penetrate almost all armors That's what hotshot laspacks are. Hell, even hellguns are basically just very powerful lasguns. So are multilasers. Lascannons are absurdly powerful lasguns.
But... that's what a sniper rifle in the Guard represents. The long las with its Rending.
im2randomghgh wrote:Or they could wrap themselves in bubblewrap. Bruise-proof armour, so that if you trip, you can just stand back up and keep fighting.
I always thought thats what Power Armor was In all seriousness how the hell did this thread go from IG troop quality to armor?
The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.
Did anyone take a peek at the poll? Only 8%(16) people think the IG are the rangers of the IoM.
nomotog wrote:The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.
No. You kit them out according to their role. Eldar are a good example of this (for the most part). Howling Banshees are supposed to be fast-moving "get in their face before they kill us" troops, and they get 5+ armor. Striking Scorpions are "move cautiously through the undergrowth" troops, and so they have heavier armor. Dark Reapers are "stand still and shoot up the other guy" troops, so they have heavy armor as well.
In a more 'real-world' example, a properly built assault team gives the guy performing door breaches heavier armor than the rest of the team. He's not going to need to move around all that much, so lighter armor wouldn't particularly help him. And his role makes him somewhat more vulnerable to bad guys (who like to point guns at doorways that they think the other side is going to be coming through), so he's more likely to need the extra protection.
Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.
Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.
And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.
Spoiler:
Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.
I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.
And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.
And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])
"Primitive" in 40k terms, that's 40k wiki not 2k wiki It has multiple layers of ceramic, our tanks are protected with that kind of tech today. And if I am not mistaken that "primitive" armor can save the Guardsman from bolter bullet ( and bolter is like today's RPG ) but not from Plasma gun ( 6000C duh... ). I nany case - more advanced that anything we have today.
And why compare Canada? When was the last time Canadian troops where at masse in some war? Canada suck in warfare, even we have greater combat experience than Canada. And you forget that 41'st millennial is 41'st millennial, they train their solders 3x faster than we. Just compare 12'th century solder training with 18'th century one and then the 21'st century one. Each time the training time is shorten because of the advancement of training methods. i wouldn't be surprised if they train 23'rd century solder in just 2 weeks.
As for service, in my country you must be 2 years in the military before you became a solder, in Russia to. Ordinary folks can be 6 months in basic training. Those who want's to become solders must first train for 2 years before they became one. And you must understand that in 41'st millennium great number of worlds are at war and they don't have 1 or 2 years to train their troops, they use any spare solder they can.
Canadian army? Won battle? That battle is draw, even if Canadians did push Germans a little. Canadians may have the best marksmanship on the world, but our military strategies are tough on West Point. And we are just small country with 8.000.000 people....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point?
The point is that you are comparing IG with today's military. And we can do that because we lack proper training, tech and enemy.
Before we get along with Imperial Guard vs. moder army just one question: WHEN HAD WE FIGHT ALIEN RACE AND WON?
nomotog wrote:The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.
No. You kit them out according to their role. Eldar are a good example of this (for the most part). Howling Banshees are supposed to be fast-moving "get in their face before they kill us" troops, and they get 5+ armor. Striking Scorpions are "move cautiously through the undergrowth" troops, and so they have heavier armor. Dark Reapers are "stand still and shoot up the other guy" troops, so they have heavy armor as well.
In a more 'real-world' example, a properly built assault team gives the guy performing door breaches heavier armor than the rest of the team. He's not going to need to move around all that much, so lighter armor wouldn't particularly help him. And his role makes him somewhat more vulnerable to bad guys (who like to point guns at doorways that they think the other side is going to be coming through), so he's more likely to need the extra protection.
A better real world example is giving snipers gihillie suits.
The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.
No. Fire Warriors (on the table top, not in the fluff) are less skillful than Standard Guardsmen, and have armour analogous to that of Storm troopers with weapon better than bolters.
The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.
No. Fire Warriors (on the table top, not in the fluff) are less skillful than Standard Guardsmen, and have armour analogous to that of Storm troopers with weapon better than bolters.
Your point=moot.
Yeah, it's different in fluff, where it's the opposite.
The quality of the troop is directly related to the quality of armor. You don't waste your best armor on your worst troops and the other way around. You don't risk your best troops by putting them in your worst armor.
No. Fire Warriors (on the table top, not in the fluff) are less skillful than Standard Guardsmen, and have armour analogous to that of Storm troopers with weapon better than bolters.
Your point=moot.
Yeah, it's different in fluff, where it's the opposite.
Even in fluff pulse weapons are more powerful than bolters. In fluff Tau FW armour<Carapace armour, but it's still pretty close.>
They serve different roles, I'm fairly sure we've talked about this in other threads. To equip line troops, definitely pulse rifles, easier to make, maintain, better range and accuracy and easier to use. To equip shock troops, definitely bolters. Better short range ability, higher rate of fire, more durable. It'd be difficult to compare Tau and Carapace as Tau armor is made a completely different material. Perhaps they are better against energy or projectile weapons? I dunno, need a source where the two are compared.
iproxtaco wrote:They serve different roles, I'm fairly sure we've talked about this in other threads. To equip line troops, definitely pulse rifles, easier to make, maintain, better range and accuracy and easier to use. To equip shock troops, definitely bolters. Better short range ability, higher rate of fire, more durable. It'd be difficult to compare Tau and Carapace as Tau armor is made a completely different material. Perhaps they are better against energy or projectile weapons? I dunno, need a source where the two are compared.
Well the pulse rifles also do more damage per shot, and fire at the rate of a lasgun...but kinda yes.
More powerful shots (fluff wise) would work better with units that are better marksmen i.e. marines. They are described as firing almost like hand-held artillery pieces. I think the marines would be better off with these. Also, fluff wise, they could probably pierce through (most) targets and hit those behind them. useful.
Also, there are some things I just can't see solid-slug weapons being useful on...like necrons? *Ping* is likely what you'd hear...
Either way, you'd be surprised how thoroughly unimportant this is considering we're debating a hypothetical universe...and not even parts that relate to the hobby!
Melissia wrote:Which is something I've corrected random on time and time again.
Did you even click the link? It is described as primitive, with protection comparable to modern bullet-proof vests.
And no, they aren't. Again, I will reference the Lost.
Spoiler:
Criid only has to go through TWO WEEKS of training to join the guard.
I don't know about most nations, but in Canada the MINIMUM training to join is six months, plus specialization in whichever field you want, and it is VERY selective. Selectiveness is not an option in the 41st millenium. Not even slightly. Special forces have six months, plus basic specialization, plus two years of service before being allowed to apply for JTF2, plus 2 months of JTF2 screening, plus 6 months of additional training, plus 1 month of indoctrination.
And every moment they don't spend on the battlefield, they spend on the range, or running drills.
And that's Canada, we're not even exceptional in war (except that we pwnd Vimy Ridge in ten hours after 2 years of consecutive British fails[and the Canadian Army has some of the highest marksmanship ratings in the world])
"Primitive" in 40k terms, that's 40k wiki not 2k wiki It has multiple layers of ceramic, our tanks are protected with that kind of tech today. And if I am not mistaken that "primitive" armor can save the Guardsman from bolter bullet ( and bolter is like today's RPG ) but not from Plasma gun ( 6000C duh... ). I nany case - more advanced that anything we have today.
And why compare Canada? When was the last time Canadian troops where at masse in some war? Canada suck in warfare, even we have greater combat experience than Canada. And you forget that 41'st millennial is 41'st millennial, they train their solders 3x faster than we. Just compare 12'th century solder training with 18'th century one and then the 21'st century one. Each time the training time is shorten because of the advancement of training methods. i wouldn't be surprised if they train 23'rd century solder in just 2 weeks.
As for service, in my country you must be 2 years in the military before you became a solder, in Russia to. Ordinary folks can be 6 months in basic training. Those who want's to become solders must first train for 2 years before they became one. And you must understand that in 41'st millennium great number of worlds are at war and they don't have 1 or 2 years to train their troops, they use any spare solder they can.
Canadian army? Won battle? That battle is draw, even if Canadians did push Germans a little. Canadians may have the best marksmanship on the world, but our military strategies are tough on West Point. And we are just small country with 8.000.000 people....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:Every regiment CAN, in theory, kick ass. So can every modern regiment. What's your point?
The point is that you are comparing IG with today's military. And we can do that because we lack proper training, tech and enemy.
Before we get along with Imperial Guard vs. moder army just one question: WHEN HAD WE FIGHT ALIEN RACE AND WON?
Coa can you try a little harder to not insult an entire group of people everytime you post? Can't believe you didn't get a warning for calling Americans stupid and Jews cheap.
To me the easisest way to represent the Guard is this:
Imagine that all countries in Earth are planets in a given sector (considering population and military capabilites only, no ofensse intended) so that in this sector you have: military monsters able to contribute with lots of men (albeit training levels may vary) and also equipment (USA, China, Russia), planets that contribute medium sized armies that are either well trained/equipped but not many bodies (Canada, Germany, UK) or relatively many bodies of not the best trained men (former Iraq, Iran, India, Brasil) and finally plantes that in galactic terms are only able to contribute with men (most african countries, southern Asia, Central America, Caribean). Finally there are some in-betweens to thes rough clasifications. All these "planets' " military is adminsitered by the Departamento Monitorum.
When an invasion/insuergency occurs, DM takes a snap shot of all assets available in the sector to cope with the present situation; that is:
If it is a rebellion in a mountanious plantet full of bunkers, impossibly difficult mountain ranges, etc. but this insurgency is not stretegical or specially threatening, DM will primarily draft form "2nd. tier armies to provide the focalized quality when needed aided with man power" planets to provide the numbers and the casualties where quality is not vital. After all time is not an issue and the situation can ultimately be contained or bogged down to attrition while a better solution is conceived or deemed necessary.
If the sector is at the same time facing a small but dangerous Waaagh!! that is important to be eradicated asap, DM may draft from military monsters first to cope the situation quickly and decisively as they can provide enough cohesive man power and equipment by themselves avoiding unncessary multi-cultural issues like language and cross training that due to time will be a hindrance. When/if the invasion is eradicated some assets can now be relocalized to contuer the rebellion and crush it by might and numbers.
If now the sector is also facing a localized daemon incursion surely "man power" plantes would be required almost exclusively once more because it doesn't matter if regiments can communicate with other plantet's regiments or if equimpment is not standard or if there are cultural issues between plantes; carnage will be horrendous and when the incursion is beaten everyone who happens to survive will be sacrificed by the Inquisition anyway. Why waste your best more valuable assets in such attrition wars? Maybe such regiments can be redirected form the first rebellion mentinoned above (now that it almost ended with the arrival of the military mosnters) as these regiments prove to be somewhat problematical and crime rates rose and discipline began to suffer when reinforcements arrived to that war zone.
What I'm trying to point out is that Guard comprises each of these facets in a sector alone. Now imagine sub segmentums, segmentums and the whole galaxy. It is impossible (and impractical) to equip al regmients to the same level because many situations require different levels of training and equipment. Remember that man power is almost limitless and thus replaceable (even trained one) but equipment is scarcer and more costly to replace.
However, they still have ACCESS to the same equipment if necessary. Not all regiments make use of it because they have different roles, but it's very unlikely that the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun, the Imperial Guard Flak armor, and the basic Imperial Guard Infantry Kit (what I described earlier plus what's in the IIUP) aren't available to all regiments that request it, unless there are supply problems. Similarly, Officers are also given a standard issue laspistol upon reaching officer ranks, although many officers prefer different pistols for superior firepower or simply style.
But when the regiment is being formed? What good is forming a regiment if they if they don't have guns to fire? That's the reason why they adopted the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun. It's easy to make, easy to supply, easy to ship, durable, rugged. It can be supplied to every Guardsman in every regiment in the Imperium if necessary. Some of them use wooden stocks, others use skeleton stocks, or other modifications. It's a choice of the regiment whether or not they use it, and how they use it.
Same with every other piece of equipment the Guard has.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Coa can you try a little harder to not insult an entire group of people everytime you post? Can't believe you didn't get a warning for calling Americans stupid and Jews cheap.
Well Kami, people can try a little harder to present facts and not wild imagination. Like writing that modern regular trooper is trained like Imperial Guard Stormtrooper.
I am sorry if this hit's you because you are Canadian, but the true is - your army lack combat experience no matter the training.
Even I go trough 3 wars, and I have 21 year.
No it didn't. They were losing to the Germans until they managed to get their act together and begin to work like something that remotely resembled a well oiled machine (and until the Germans realized that Russian winters are colder than a witch's thorax).
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Coa can you try a little harder to not insult an entire group of people everytime you post? Can't believe you didn't get a warning for calling Americans stupid and Jews cheap.
Well Kami, people can try a little harder to present facts and not wild imagination. Like writing that modern regular trooper is trained like Imperial Guard Stormtrooper.
I am sorry if this hit's you because you are Canadian, but the true is - your army lack combat experience no matter the training.
Even I go trough 3 wars, and I have 21 year.
Canada has been involved in more UN peacekeeping than any other nation. A year hasn't gone by since the 50s that Candians Troops haven't been in combat zones. Your country is known for being bombed while commiting genocide on civilians. That's hardly full-blown war either.
Melissia wrote:No it didn't. They were losing to the Germans until they managed to get their act together and begin to work like something that remotely resembled a well oiled machine (and until the Germans realized that Russian winters are colder than a witch's thorax).
What are you talking about? They were picking the German advance to pieces right off the bat!
And as for winter-I spent two years in Nunavut. Just about the coldest place ever. It really depends on the nationality of the attacking army when it comes to how the winter affects them. In 1995 (w/ windchill) it got to -79 Celsius in Iqaluit, the average temperature on Mars is -67. 12 degrees colder than most of Mars $h1T! I know, I know, off topic, but I like winter and thought I'd share a few facts
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, to settle the disputes, they way I see modern special forces is:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Canada has been involved in more UN peacekeeping than any other nation. A year hasn't gone by since the 50s that Candians Troops haven't been in combat zones. Your country is known for being bombed while commiting genocide on civilians. That's hardly full-blown war either.
And that's the problem, we are the bad guys in your eyes.
All have forgotten our sacrifice in 1'st world war, in second world war or the fact that we always push for peace with USA and USSR. And that we create the league of Non-Aligned Movement to ensure peace in the world. And you all judge us because 3 idiots who led us into disarray and the darkest times since the beginning of the century.
If I am to look at the USA only when they exterminate Indians and prosecuting black people, and not seeing their donations and sacrifice in WW2, I would see USA as bad guys to.
Who is now insulting?
A valiant victory, but it was still only AFTER the Germans managed to punch all the damn way through to Stalingrad. This was about the time that the Russians began to get properly organized and equipped. That's when the Russians really began to start kicking German ass.
im2randomghgh wrote: @Kamikaze Canuck, That's Americans, Jews AND Canadians all insulted in one small post.
I only said the truth. Serbs are known for being reckless and idiots. We think that we are the smartest and oldest people in the world and that we can pick a fight with every nation we are bordering with and won, no matter we are dying people.
<redacted text removed>
Talking about manners I at least admit when I am wrong...
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Canada has been involved in more UN peacekeeping than any other nation. A year hasn't gone by since the 50s that Candians Troops haven't been in combat zones. Your country is known for being bombed while commiting genocide on civilians. That's hardly full-blown war either.
And that's the problem, we are the bad guys in your eyes.
All have forgotten our sacrifice in 1'st world war, in second world war or the fact that we always push for peace with USA and USSR. And that we create the league of Non-Aligned Movement to ensure peace in the world. And you all judge us because 3 idiots who led us into disarray and the darkest times since the beginning of the century.
If I am to look at the USA only when they exterminate Indians and prosecuting black people, and not seeing their donations and sacrifice in WW2, I would see USA as bad guys to.
Who is now insulting?
Because you did the same thing. For some reason Canada's contributions in WWI and WWII didn't count a second ago. BTW guess who had the biggest single day advance in both WWI and WWII? Look let's cool down the rhetoric because this'll go bad quick. I'm just suggesting you stop making blanket generallizations about groups of people, they usually turn out badly.
Actually German would won the battle if Hitler didn't pull half of German forces from that battle to Italy to push back the Allies.
Again another battle lost because of the madman.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Coa can you try a little harder to not insult an entire group of people everytime you post? Can't believe you didn't get a warning for calling Americans stupid and Jews cheap.
Well Kami, people can try a little harder to present facts and not wild imagination. Like writing that modern regular trooper is trained like Imperial Guard Stormtrooper. I am sorry if this hit's you because you are Canadian, but the true is - your army lack combat experience no matter the training. Even I go trough 3 wars, and I have 21 year.
Canada has been involved in more UN peacekeeping than any other nation. A year hasn't gone by since the 50s that Candians Troops haven't been in combat zones. Your country is known for being bombed while commiting genocide on civilians. That's hardly full-blown war either.
If that's not a good retaliation, I don't know what is. Canada has been in many conflicts to back the United States up and many on their own. They have my respect for sure....
I wasn't much to fond of the "Americans are stupid" remark either. People may think this but the United States military could stomp most of the others in this world, save the other developed nations. However a war with one of these nations would have horrible results for the rest of the world as well.
Back on topic.... You could say the various groups of "elite" IG could be compared to the countries special forces they are more like to make things easier.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because you did the same thing. For some reason Canada's contributions in WWI and WWII didn't count a second ago. BTW guess who had the biggest single day advance in both WWI and WWII? Look let's cool down the rhetoric because this'll go bad quick. I'm just suggesting you stop making blanket generallizations about groups of people, they usually turn out badly.
What? I know Canadian contributions, but they fight under the banner of British Empire not sovereign nation. And Canadians didn't won some large battle by themselves at all.
Biggest single day in advance? We liberate our entire country in less than a month in WW1, with Bulgarian, Austro-Hunarian and German solders and artillery against us. Even the British and French cavalry where behind our troops with charge we have conducting.
I am just saying that Canadian army lack combat experience. I didn't say they are bad or that they suck. And i am not racist, I like our race - but truth hurts. Every nation have it's flaws and benefits. I din;t lie in any post I have maid.
Wait are you telling me the Emprah does not protect 
I at least admit when I am wrong...