Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex page 23 bud. Read my post that you quoted. Its like a road map to get you there.
I get you now, but look at the rule for the Axe Mortalis. It says its a Power Weapon. It doesn't have extra rules besides that its Mastercrafted and a Power Weapon.
By your example then the Nemesis Hammer in the GK codex should be AP3 because it has its own rules even though it says it follows the rules for Thunder Hammers. The Axe Mortalis is a generic power weapon in its rules even though it has a separate entry. The definition for Unusual Power Weapons is that they have their own set of rules. Does the Axe Mortalis have its own set of rules? Nope, it simply says its a Mastercrafted Power Weapon.
Play it like you want. It seems pretty clear to me. Its almost like it is spelled out. I hope GWFAQ it for AP 2 for both the Axe Mortalis and the Glaives, but I won't hold my breath. Good luck. There is also a similiar entry in Space Marine Codex. So if you can use that to further your arguement then more power to you!
Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex page 23 bud. Read my post that you quoted. Its like a road map to get you there.
I get you now, but look at the rule for the Axe Mortalis. It says its a Power Weapon. It doesn't have extra rules besides that its Mastercrafted and a Power Weapon.
By your example then the Nemesis Hammer in the GK codex should be AP3 because it has its own rules even though it says it follows the rules for Thunder Hammers. The Axe Mortalis is a generic power weapon in its rules even though it has a separate entry. The definition for Unusual Power Weapons is that they have their own set of rules. Does the Axe Mortalis have its own set of rules? Nope, it simply says its a Mastercrafted Power Weapon.
Play it like you want. It seems pretty clear to me. Its almost like it is spelled out. I hope GWFAQ it for AP 2 for both the Axe Mortalis and the Glaives, but I won't hold my breath. Good luck. There is also a similiar entry in Space Marine Codex. So if you can use that to further your arguement then more power to you!
They are Ap2. That's exactly what I am getting at. They aren't unusual. If you want further proof look at the FAQ for Lemartes's Weapon. It has its own unique entry, but its just a generic power maul. It doesn't have any extra bonuses besides USR of being master crafted.
If you want to see an example of a Unusual Power Weapon look at Astorath's weapon. That is definitely an AP3 Melee Weapon because it follows its own distinct rules in CC.
Eldercaveman wrote:Has anyone ran meph yet? How does he hold up in 6th?
I Tried him out in a 1500p army against GK's meph got bogged down in a 4-5 round challenge against Draiko, that 2+ armor save is insane now when neither has AP2 weapons. and due to me saving all armor saves Draiko could not insta kill meph and draiko being eternal i could not insta kill him either, so they where still locked in combat when the game ended.
my best advice would be to stay clear of such a challenge and go for 3+ armor save troops
Captain Tycho looks more appealing after some of this discussion.
He has 2+, 4++ and an attack at initiative that "ignores all armor saves." As Captain Tycho, he is still an IC.
He is just the kind of character in a unit that can take full advantage of the challenge rules or discourage your opponent from issuing.
What do you all think about him?
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Radiation wrote:If an opponent wanted to play it that way I would totally be cool with it.
What Red Comet is trying to say is that the general consensus of the gaming community has determined that the rules read in such a way that you have gotten your wish: Dante has power axe with ap2 and everything else that goes along with it.
Most of us in this thread where searching for a way to have Dante attack at initiative.
Stoffer wrote:Yep, Tycho for footslogging armies, captains for jump pack ones.
A captain is an excuse to buy another model. Or to convert.
I have never run one. Under the white dwarf codex, I ran Corbulo as my HQ at lower points levels and added Dante as a second HQ as the points increased. Under the current codex in 5th, I ran Mephiston, Librarians, and/or a reclusiarch as HQ.
cerebaton wrote:Why a Captain over a Reclusiarch? You get the 4++ either way and Liturgies of Blood is worth the extra point imo.
The idea for the jumper list would be to use the Captain as insulation for challenges. He has higher WS and better upgrade options while being 30 points cheaper. Not being able to switch his Crozius for a better hand to hand weapon sucks if you're doing challenges. That said, Fearless/Liturgies of blood is a wonderful combo.
Honestly, if you attach a regular chaplain and he gets challenged, say no and leave him out of the fight. You'd be using him for fearless and liturgies anyway.
Exactly! There's always the option. Him not being in the fight isn't the worst thing in the world, and if you have him with DC and the enemy tries to pull that, even without the Chaplain's help the DC can mulch the enemy with relative ease.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mind you they still get his bonus.
Titan Atlas wrote:Exactly! There's always the option. Him not being in the fight isn't the worst thing in the world, and if you have him with DC and the enemy tries to pull that, even without the Chaplain's help the DC can mulch the enemy with relative ease.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mind you they still get his bonus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So that's good
I disagree, you're basically wasting a 100 points+ model while the opponent still gets to use his. Your Chaplain not getting his attacks while his does can decide the combat.
If you're not the one making the charge with a DC unit armed with a chaplain then you're absolutely wasting that unit. But losing the chaplain in a challenge, thus losing the rerolls to the DC (I mean, the Chaplain really only counts with his rerolls on the charge after all), screws the DC even more. Also, if you are charging a unit with any chance of fighting a model that is in range of attacking, with higher initiative and thus poses a viable threat to the entire unit, then you deserve to lose the battle.
I disagree Stoffer. You wouldn't be doing this in every fight. Just against things that the chaplain would not stand against by himself. Say a Daemon. I'd send the DC after him in a heart beat, they get to re-roll hits and wounds hitting 20 (5 man with bolters) - 50 (10 man with CCW) times. They have feels no pain, the chaplain doesn't.
Mordechai wrote:I disagree Stoffer. You wouldn't be doing this in every fight. Just against things that the chaplain would not stand against by himself. Say and Daemon. I'd send the DC after him in a heart beat, they get to re-roll hits and wounds hitting 20 (5 man with bolters) - 50 (10 man with CCW) times. They have feels no pain, the chaplain doesn't.
cerebaton wrote:Cool - that makes sense. What would you arm him with in an anti-challenge capacity?
I haven't thought about it too much, but how about a pair of LCs? It is at least a good place to start the discussion. One LC might be enough. To fit the profile we have described in the thread, you still need to add the jump pack.
cerebaton wrote:Cool - that makes sense. What would you arm him with in an anti-challenge capacity?
I haven't thought about it too much, but how about a pair of LCs? It is at least a good place to start the discussion. One LC might be enough. To fit the profile we have described in the thread, you still need to add the jump pack.
LCs are definately the "best" option but also probably the most pricey.
I tend to think that, if you have the W and invuln to be worth spending 40 points on, LC/PF is worth considering. The new specialist weapon rules and choice of melee weapon to employ in CC means you can use either ruleset and get +1a. Lets you kill 3+ at initiative or 2+ at I1.
I would not go for double LCs, way too many points for what you are getting out of it.
I'd go with LC/PF, LC/SS or LC/combi-weapon
About the Chaplain, I'd refuse the challenge every time and let the DC kill everything. He is a support model that improves his unit, going around hitting people is just a bonus.
My problem with Captains is they have a relatively small influence over your armies. A Librarian can affect multiple units with Psychic powers, a Reclusiarch or a Chaplain improves his own squad. The Captain is just a beatstick and as far as the world of beatstick goes he is rather mediocre.
Jackster wrote: The Captain is just a beatstick and as far as the world of beatstick goes he is rather mediocre.
There is some wisdom in that statement. If we take him, we are choosing to move away from the other HQ choices in order to gear him up for challenges. However, he is still only I 5. Lots of things are going to go before him. I like the sound of the LC/SS idea. But at that point we begin moving into points range for buying Terminator armor, at which point he can't move with the jump infantry. If we are going to spend that many points on him, I wonder if jumping to one of the special characters doesn't become a more attractive choice: Dante, Astorath, Meph, or Sanguinor (I know the last two can't join units. So, you alter your strategy a bit).
If I had the Sanguinor and say, a nearby unit of DC...hoo boy. I mean, I doubt I'll use him, but that'd be brutal. Charge a deathstar (provided you get close enough), if there's a powerful HQ at the head, challenge him with the Sanguinor (no guarantee he'd win, but he won't likely die in a 1v1 unless you made a particularly poor choice in challenges), and use the Sanguinor's buffs on the DC as they charge mercilessly.
Jackster wrote: The Captain is just a beatstick and as far as the world of beatstick goes he is rather mediocre.
There is some wisdom in that statement. If we take him, we are choosing to move away from the other HQ choices in order to gear him up for challenges. However, he is still only I 5. Lots of things are going to go before him. I like the sound of the LC/SS idea. But at that point we begin moving into points range for buying Terminator armor, at which point he can't move with the jump infantry. If we are going to spend that many points on him, I wonder if jumping to one of the special characters doesn't become a more attractive choice: Dante, Astorath, Meph, or Sanguinor (I know the last two can't join units. So, you alter your strategy a bit).
Uuuuh I disagree. For a beatstick, he's the best thing the codex offers at the 100-140/150 point range and with furious charge nerfed, I5 is super good. I don't really agree that a lot of things are going before him, certainly not things in his point range unless they come from codexes that are specifically geared to strike first.
If you're doing jump infantry, he's about the best beatstick you'll get. If you're doing walking/terminator, you might want to look elsewhere.
Also, those special characters you mention are arguably better, but that's because they're twice as expensive, which makes the comparison slightly flawed.
I'm not really too fussed how great they are, i just think it would look cool, but it would be useful if it was actually legal, it does say replace your boltgun, bolt pistol and/or chainsword with: then thunderhammer is listed, but its a case of can you have two, two-handed weapons?
Stoffer wrote:I don't really agree that a lot of things are going before him, certainly not things in his point range unless they come from codexes that are specifically geared to strike first.
I am not trying to 'win the argument' or anything of that nature. Your points are valid, and the Captain deserves to be play tested against the gauntlet of armies in 6th.
Nevertheless, our opponents will not stop to see if their beatsticks are in the same points range as our captain when they issue a challenge. Perhaps it would just be the Dark Eldar/Eldar that go before I 5. I will have to get out the codexes and do some research to see just how many high initiative threats there really are lurking out there.
The more I look through the codex with 6th ed. rules in mind, the more Tycho and Gabriel Seth look like decent buys. (for purposes of fightin in CC and accepting challenges). Both have invuln saves, Tycho 2+,4+, Seth 3+ 4+. Tycho negates armor saves, Seth is str 6th rending. Both are init 5, which is decent with their saves. With Dante now and Axe bearer and Astorath ( I am not sure what his weapon counts as), their inititive suffers. They are also more expensive.
Also have to figure that you will probably have a sang priest running with the squad that you put either of those guys with.
What I was thinking:
5 van guard vets total, 3 with power swords and SS, and 2 with PF and SS. Add Tycho, Sang Priest and or a librarian, seems like it might do nice if you can get it where it needs to be.
Or
You could similarly add them to a mech DC unit.
The only reason I could see using Dante now would be for his Precise strike, attach him to a 10 man assault squad with 2 melta guns, inferno pistol on the srg. With Dante that would be 4 melta shots on a high profile target such as a landraider. But thats still pretty suicidy and probably much more expensive that Sternguard in a drop pod. At that point the only reason to include that would be for redundancy or the abililty to nuke another target.
Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex page 23 bud. Read my post that you quoted. Its like a road map to get you there.
I get you now, but look at the rule for the Axe Mortalis. It says its a Power Weapon. It doesn't have extra rules besides that its Mastercrafted and a Power Weapon.
By your example then the Nemesis Hammer in the GK codex should be AP3 because it has its own rules even though it says it follows the rules for Thunder Hammers. The Axe Mortalis is a generic power weapon in its rules even though it has a separate entry. The definition for Unusual Power Weapons is that they have their own set of rules. Does the Axe Mortalis have its own set of rules? Nope, it simply says its a Mastercrafted Power Weapon.
Play it like you want. It seems pretty clear to me. Its almost like it is spelled out. I hope GWFAQ it for AP 2 for both the Axe Mortalis and the Glaives, but I won't hold my breath. Good luck. There is also a similiar entry in Space Marine Codex. So if you can use that to further your arguement then more power to you!
They are Ap2. That's exactly what I am getting at. They aren't unusual. If you want further proof look at the FAQ for Lemartes's Weapon. It has its own unique entry, but its just a generic power maul. It doesn't have any extra bonuses besides USR of being master crafted.
If you want to see an example of a Unusual Power Weapon look at Astorath's weapon. That is definitely an AP3 Melee Weapon because it follows its own distinct rules in CC.
Just my 2 cents but it says on page 61 of the BRB "if a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"....BANG Master Crafted is a special rule therefor all must be AP3. Lemartes Crozius is only FAQ'd to bring it into line with all marine croziuses/crozyi?!
Here ends this mornings lesson =)
It rends, but its still nothing compared to just ignoring armor and double damge vehicals. Tycho went from meh to WOW!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ravenwind1984 wrote:
Red Comet wrote:
Radiation wrote:
Red Comet wrote:
Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex page 23 bud. Read my post that you quoted. Its like a road map to get you there.
I get you now, but look at the rule for the Axe Mortalis. It says its a Power Weapon. It doesn't have extra rules besides that its Mastercrafted and a Power Weapon.
By your example then the Nemesis Hammer in the GK codex should be AP3 because it has its own rules even though it says it follows the rules for Thunder Hammers. The Axe Mortalis is a generic power weapon in its rules even though it has a separate entry. The definition for Unusual Power Weapons is that they have their own set of rules. Does the Axe Mortalis have its own set of rules? Nope, it simply says its a Mastercrafted Power Weapon.
Play it like you want. It seems pretty clear to me. Its almost like it is spelled out. I hope GWFAQ it for AP 2 for both the Axe Mortalis and the Glaives, but I won't hold my breath. Good luck. There is also a similiar entry in Space Marine Codex. So if you can use that to further your arguement then more power to you!
They are Ap2. That's exactly what I am getting at. They aren't unusual. If you want further proof look at the FAQ for Lemartes's Weapon. It has its own unique entry, but its just a generic power maul. It doesn't have any extra bonuses besides USR of being master crafted.
If you want to see an example of a Unusual Power Weapon look at Astorath's weapon. That is definitely an AP3 Melee Weapon because it follows its own distinct rules in CC.
Just my 2 cents but it says on page 61 of the BRB "if a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"....BANG Master Crafted is a special rule therefor all must be AP3. Lemartes Crozius is only FAQ'd to bring it into line with all marine croziuses/crozyi?!
Here ends this mornings lesson =)
I really hope your right. Slow Dante = dead Dante. Back in the day we didnt even care about Dante's axe. We could use the inferno pistol in melee. Try to save 3 successful str 8 inferno pistol blasts! I believe the axe at the time was only strength 7 and didnt have the same AP as the pistol. With the current rule set for pistols I imagine the warriors just clubbing the enemy to death with their pistol butt. It certainly lacks realism that you cant fire a pistol point blank but I suppose it would become to overpowered. You would also have to spend less points to build in a close combat attack.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: With Dante now and Axe bearer and Astorath ( I am not sure what his weapon counts as), their inititive suffers. They are also more expensive.
Astorath's weapon would be an Unusual power weapon.
The problem with assuming that Dante's Weapon isn't an Axe is when you look at Unusual Power Weapon. It says Unique rules not special rules. Also if you look at the sentence for determining what kind of Power Weapon it is you'll see that it says, "No further special rules." I found this wording to be odd why would it have further special rules? Its most likely referring to rules stated after the word Power Weapon.
If you look at all of the Unusual Weapons their "Unique" rules occur after the word power weapon is said. You can't have a Power Weapon Master Crafted, but a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Also if you think about it why would SG not be allowed to take a Master crafted Axe or a Mastercrafted Sword? That's kind of ridiculous that GW would limit our options and not allow for a Power Weapon to be a Master crafted Axe, Mastercrafted sword, etc unless specially laid out in the rules.
Red Comet wrote:The problem with assuming that Dante's Weapon isn't an Axe is when you look at Unusual Power Weapon. It says Unique rules not special rules. Also if you look at the sentence for determining what kind of Power Weapon it is you'll see that it says, "No further special rules." I found this wording to be odd why would it have further special rules? Its most likely referring to rules stated after the word Power Weapon.
If you look at all of the Unusual Weapons their "Unique" rules occur after the word power weapon is said. You can't have a Power Weapon Master Crafted, but a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Also if you think about it why would SG not be allowed to take a Master crafted Axe or a Mastercrafted Sword? That's kind of ridiculous that GW would limit our options and not allow for a Power Weapon to be a Master crafted Axe, Mastercrafted sword, etc unless specially laid out in the rules.
I'm playing it as its a unique power weapon, so no additional bonuses, but I strike at initiative, and if my opponent has a problem with me playing it that, frankly there probably tfg and I have no interest in playing against you and you're gamey bull crap it's a game
Red Comet wrote:The problem with assuming that Dante's Weapon isn't an Axe is when you look at Unusual Power Weapon. It says Unique rules not special rules. Also if you look at the sentence for determining what kind of Power Weapon it is you'll see that it says, "No further special rules." I found this wording to be odd why would it have further special rules? Its most likely referring to rules stated after the word Power Weapon.
If you look at all of the Unusual Weapons their "Unique" rules occur after the word power weapon is said. You can't have a Power Weapon Master Crafted, but a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Also if you think about it why would SG not be allowed to take a Master crafted Axe or a Mastercrafted Sword? That's kind of ridiculous that GW would limit our options and not allow for a Power Weapon to be a Master crafted Axe, Mastercrafted sword, etc unless specially laid out in the rules.
I'm playing it as its a unique power weapon, so no additional bonuses, but I strike at initiative, and if my opponent has a problem with me playing it that, frankly there probably tfg and I have no interest in playing against you and you're gamey bull crap it's a game
You're right, it's a game, play it wrong if you want to. I wish I could pull this sort of thing with my Wolf Priests' power mauls, and if you don't let me then you're obviously tfg
Red Comet wrote:The problem with assuming that Dante's Weapon isn't an Axe is when you look at Unusual Power Weapon. It says Unique rules not special rules. Also if you look at the sentence for determining what kind of Power Weapon it is you'll see that it says, "No further special rules." I found this wording to be odd why would it have further special rules? Its most likely referring to rules stated after the word Power Weapon.
If you look at all of the Unusual Weapons their "Unique" rules occur after the word power weapon is said. You can't have a Power Weapon Master Crafted, but a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Also if you think about it why would SG not be allowed to take a Master crafted Axe or a Mastercrafted Sword? That's kind of ridiculous that GW would limit our options and not allow for a Power Weapon to be a Master crafted Axe, Mastercrafted sword, etc unless specially laid out in the rules.
I'm playing it as its a unique power weapon, so no additional bonuses, but I strike at initiative, and if my opponent has a problem with me playing it that, frankly there probably tfg and I have no interest in playing against you and you're gamey bull crap it's a game
I could care less, but aren't you the TFG for playing it in a way that is advantageous to your standards?
I dont really think Dante having an axe is too bad, he has 2+/4++, most weapons that goes before him is AP3 or worse. Having a AP2 melee weapon is pretty good.
If you see a powerfist sergeant, have a unit leader with LC or PW challenge the guy.
I don't think it being ap2 is a bad thing. I don't play competitively, im a beer and take out player. So untill we get an FAQ to outright it as one thing, I don't see how my interpretation is a problem. I see it as making more sense from a fluff point of view. Blood angels are famed for there speed and ferocious nature, having Dante striking slowly just doesn't make sense.
Ok, I played my defensive BA list and it did really well. I'm working on a battle report on it now and will link it as soon as I get it done.
After playing that game and getting the feel of 6th I realize just how many options have opened up for us. HQ's and troops we wouldn't have normally run in 5th now seem like the best way to go.
So what has everyone else found so far?
Tycho worked really well for with his 2+ armor and attack that ignores armor.
The Tac marines make great defensive units.
DC are just ridiculous on the charge.
Spoiler for the battle report. Bolters are our friends! And Vehicles tend to leave the board rather quickly.
Eldercaveman wrote:I don't think it being ap2 is a bad thing. I don't play competitively, im a beer and take out player. So untill we get an FAQ to outright it as one thing, I don't see how my interpretation is a problem. I see it as making more sense from a fluff point of view. Blood angels are famed for there speed and ferocious nature, having Dante striking slowly just doesn't make sense.
And just how I wish Dante was Eternal Warrior, but unfortunately he's really old. =(
Considering Dante has visions of a golden armored warrior (himself) standing before / defending the golden throne at the end of time, you would think he was an eternal warrior
If you look at the list you'll notice my edits. I did change the list up at the last minute but stayed with the same defensive idea. I'm working up some Vassal screen shots to accompany my BatRep so it will probably be finished by tomorrow night.
I'm late to the parade, but I realized that Eldar are Allies of Convenience. People keep saying that they cannot score objectives...where does it say they can't when for desperate allies it says that then the enemy units are non scoring and non denial, but doesn't mention it before?
Also if I run Eldar allies I was thinking of not running a Librarian in my main force, but instead maybe a combat character like a Reclusiarch or Captain because of Runes of Warding. Thoughts?
Thanks! Seems pretty legit. I hadn't realized up until recently just how much more valuable Tycho has become, and the more I think about it, DC Tycho could be really interesting now that you can fully control him, and can probably make good use of him for challenges, supporting another unit in the same close combat and possibly taking on a good variety of enemies and having a good chance of pulling through.
Actually, not really, as he can issue a challenge, has a possibility to survive and yet on the charge can dish out an unsaved wound or two (with six attacks, not bad) and it's not like I'd send him in alone, either. I'd honestly consider sending him in jointly with a strong unit against whatever I see fit, and he challenges the character leading that unit and my other guys run in and crush them.
I'm not sure how often I'd use him, but I do think that he's now worth a try and seeing what can be done using him.
Yeah but the strong unit doesn't really need him is the thing, they'd be doing just as much damage without him. Meanwhile, he's 175 points that can be killed by 1 lascannon and/or a squad of Tac Marines focus-firing him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know, I get it, but he does seem kinda fun is all. Regular Tycho works just fine as well, obviously, and can join a unit. The main thing about DC Tycho that appeals to me now is his added bonus attacks, increased WS and still having I5, which is awesome. But even regular Tycho will be interesting to watch, that's for sure ^_^
The FAQ says an independent character that has succumbed to the red thirst cannot join a non red thirst unit. That's really only relevant once the game is underway right? If an IC is deployed with a unit, they still do the red thirst roll with a single dice right?
For example:
My librarian is deployed with a squad of assault marines. I roll a 1 on the dice and BOTH the libby and assault squad are treated as having red thirst since they're a unit at the time I roll the dice.
Later in the game, the libby splits from the squad but cannot join my other assault squad due to it not having the red thirst.
It wasn't changed so those units roll them separately initially right?
Red Comet wrote:I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.
So under this interpretation you roll once and the result applies to both the unit and librarian.
Red Comet wrote:I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.
So under this interpretation you roll once and the result applies to both the unit and librarian.
Red Comet wrote:I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.
So under this interpretation you roll once and the result applies to both the unit and librarian.
That's how I understood it too.
Yup that's the only way it makes sense unless there is another way of looking at it that I haven't thought of. I think its a ridiculous rule that makes no sense until you realize that Fearless is granted by one model to the entire unit. Imagine if a Librarian could grant Fearless to any unit he joined or a Sanguinary Priest, etc.
I think they should have errated it so that the IC is never subject to the Red Thirst aka if the unit gains FC the Librarian doesn't benefit from it because FC is gained on a model per model basis., but can benefit from Fearless because the squad is fearless.
Red Comet wrote:I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.
So under this interpretation you roll once and the result applies to both the unit and librarian.
That's how I understood it too.
Yup that's the only way it makes sense unless there is another way of looking at it that I haven't thought of. I think its a ridiculous rule that makes no sense until you realize that Fearless is granted by one model to the entire unit. Imagine if a Librarian could grant Fearless to any unit he joined or a Sanguinary Priest, etc.
I think they should have errated it so that the IC is never subject to the Red Thirst aka if the unit gains FC the Librarian doesn't benefit from it because FC is gained on a model per model basis., but can benefit from Fearless because the squad is fearless.
They should have errated it to say our ICs have the Red Thirst rule! This FAQ makes no sense at all considering our ICs don't have the Red Thirst. Leaving the only interpretation of FAQ to say that if the IC was originally attached when the Red Thirst is rolls, then he is the only IC that can attach there.
Red Comet wrote:I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.
So under this interpretation you roll once and the result applies to both the unit and librarian.
That's how I understood it too.
Yup that's the only way it makes sense unless there is another way of looking at it that I haven't thought of. I think its a ridiculous rule that makes no sense until you realize that Fearless is granted by one model to the entire unit. Imagine if a Librarian could grant Fearless to any unit he joined or a Sanguinary Priest, etc.
I think they should have errated it so that the IC is never subject to the Red Thirst aka if the unit gains FC the Librarian doesn't benefit from it because FC is gained on a model per model basis., but can benefit from Fearless because the squad is fearless.
They should have errated it to say our ICs have the Red Thirst rule! This FAQ makes no sense at all considering our ICs don't have the Red Thirst. Leaving the only interpretation of FAQ to say that if the IC was originally attached when the Red Thirst is rolls, then he is the only IC that can attach there.
I've been playing in an escalation league for the past couple of weeks. We are 1000 points now and today I tried out a Stormraven in my list. It was amazing! The amount of firepower it can bring to the board is insane. It shreds things alive because it is just so durable now. No one at my FLGS runs an Aegis Defense Line for some reason. I had the Stormraven tank a lot of shots from Lootas today. I have really bad luck with those bloodstrike missiles. I can't wait till I run 2. The biggest problem with running the stormraven is that it goes into reserves and this makes it really tough for 25 ish assault marines to deal with targets that are far. I wish GW would have made it so they fly onto the board turn 1 instead of turn 2 and that it was automatic.
That being said, I don't see why we shouldn't be running two of these. They are just so durable.
Its not very friendly to begin with. A lot of the players there use Tournament geared lists. Rarely do people use fluffy lists there. The players are tough to beat.
That's my impression as well. I ran a super mixed list and my ASM were markedly weaker, but once my stormraven came in with a dread and a group of assault terminators, the entire game turned around.
I know it might sound like heresy, but I'm considering a few practice games without any assault squads at all.
Red Comet wrote:I've been playing in an escalation league for the past couple of weeks. We are 1000 points now and today I tried out a Stormraven in my list. It was amazing! The amount of firepower it can bring to the board is insane. It shreds things alive because it is just so durable now. No one at my FLGS runs an Aegis Defense Line for some reason. I had the Stormraven tank a lot of shots from Lootas today. I have really bad luck with those bloodstrike missiles. I can't wait till I run 2. The biggest problem with running the stormraven is that it goes into reserves and this makes it really tough for 25 ish assault marines to deal with targets that are far. I wish GW would have made it so they fly onto the board turn 1 instead of turn 2 and that it was automatic.
That being said, I don't see why we shouldn't be running two of these. They are just so durable.
Red Comet wrote:I've been playing in an escalation league for the past couple of weeks. We are 1000 points now and today I tried out a Stormraven in my list. It was amazing! The amount of firepower it can bring to the board is insane. It shreds things alive because it is just so durable now. No one at my FLGS runs an Aegis Defense Line for some reason. I had the Stormraven tank a lot of shots from Lootas today. I have really bad luck with those bloodstrike missiles. I can't wait till I run 2. The biggest problem with running the stormraven is that it goes into reserves and this makes it really tough for 25 ish assault marines to deal with targets that are far. I wish GW would have made it so they fly onto the board turn 1 instead of turn 2 and that it was automatic.
That being said, I don't see why we shouldn't be running two of these. They are just so durable.
Probably in part because it's only 1000pts.
Haha. That's true, but you have to realize it was taking fire from Loota squads which always hurts no matter how you look at it.
Guys I need help. I have read all the thread but I am still confused. I want to start building a small BA force for 6th and intend to take the opportunity of a coming tournament to give it a good test. Can you see my army list on this post and leave a comment?
Just played in a 1500 point tournament this weekend, the Golden Throne in San Jose, CA. I had six very eye opening games, and will post my list and thoughts below.
My list - Mephiston
2 Vindicators
Autolas Predator
TLAC Baal Predator
2x 5 man RAS in TLAC Razorback
2x 5 man RAS in Lasplas Razorback
Typhoon
Game 1 vs Mech Guard, Dawn of War Crusade - Win
5 Chimera with a mix of melta and plas vets
CCS in Chimera with plasma
2 Leman Russ
2 Vendetta
AV13 wins vs multilasers. Vendettas did some damage outflanking and the battlecannons made me nervous but I made a wall of AV13 and hid the Razorbacks behind it and just blasted away. Used Meph as a threat of countercharge if anything got too close.When Vendettas were overhead I moved under them to minimize his options. For everyone that said my mech was fragile, his was more so.
Game 2 vs DEldar, Hammer + Anvil Purge the Alien - Win
Archon w/splinter cannon trueborn in Venom
2 Ravagers
4x 10 warriors in Raiders w/ Blasters
Farseer w/ RoW
5 Rangers
3 scatterlaser warwalkers
Good opponent, great guy. Straight up shooting match, I went first and set up camp at midtable (playing long ways, remember). We were laying into each other, but his AV10 died way easier than AV13. Vindicators are fantastic fire magnets, and while they can really dish out damage they do have specific limitations. Landing the template on skinny DE vees is tricky.
Game 3 vs 1K sons, Vanguard Strike + Big Guns - Win
Terminator Sorceror
10 Tz Terminators
2x 10 1Ksons
2x 3 Oblits
A resilient army, with scary amounts of firepower against MEQ on foot. Unfortunately for him, as soon as I killed the Oblits he didnt really have anything with which to hurt me in shooting. Meph used Hallucination to good effect to keep the Terminators out of melee. Game ended turn 5, he had 2 models left on the table and I hadnt lost anything.
Game 4 vs Swolves, Dawn of War + Scouring - Win
2 Runepriests
2x Missile Long Fangs
5 squads of assorted Grey Hunters in Razorbacks and Rhinos
Lone Wolf w/ LC/SS
He started off strong and Seized, killed both Vindicators and the TLAC Razors. I hugged the back table edge and started popping transports to get his Hunters on foot. Meph engaged the Lone Wolf and catapulted into midfield, where JMac shot his entire army at Meph. I had Precognition up, and didnt lose a single wound - Meph then went on a rampage eating Hunters and I pulled out the win in a long game. Scoring Baal Predator helped wrap things up with a late 12" + 12" flat out move.
Game 5 vs Grey Knights, Hammer + Anvil Emperors Will - Loss
Coteaz
5x 3 henchmen in psyback
2x 5 Purifiers with hammer and 2 psycannon in TLAC Razorback
2 Psyfleman Dreads
1 Venerable Psyfleman Dread
Dreadknight w/ Heavy Incinerator
Playing on table 1 with no flyers, so we officially announced that flyers are dead in 6th edition. Vindicators went down early again, Meph charged a squad of 4 Purifiers in the open and only killed 1, then got hammered. Very bloody game with so much light armor. His Dreadknight was the deciding factor, as I didnt have enough ap2 to kill it before it got to me. Psyfleman dreads = still awesome. ChristianA = great player.
Game 6 vs Sisters, Vanguard Strike + Relic - Loss
Saint Celestine
2x 10 Retributors w/ Heavy Bolters
2x 10 Sisters on foot
2x 5 Sisters in MMImmolators
Exorcist
10 Seraphim w/ pistols and whatnot
Aegis Defence line
Saddest game of the tournament :( Relying on rending vs AV13 is a tough road to victory, and I dug in early and didnt let go of the relic. However, Celestine and the Seraphim dropped in behind my line and absolutely demolished the squad holding the relic, and my return fire vaporized the entire group of them including Celestine. In the middle of turn 6 he had maybe 10 total sisters left on the table, which were the rets in his backfield and 2 or 3 engaged with a spare assault squad in no mans land. No chance of picking up the relic, Mephiston was alive albeit with 1 wound, and things were looking pretty good. However, in the bottom of 6 he killed Meph to claim the Warlord point, and Celestine stood up and flamed the guy holding the relic - a 5 point swing, since I lost the points for Slay the Warlord, the Relic, and Linebreaker since she was in my deployment zone. The game ended just like that, and I lost by 1 point on secondaries. My opponent completely lucked into the win by rolling a 4+, and I dont know if he knew that or not...there really wasnt any skill involved in it but thats the tournament life I suppose.
Post tournament thoughts - armor is just as viable as it used to be. Stun locking is gone, so thats a mark in their favor. Having infantry in transports sucks if you want to assault with them at all, I think MSU is excellent, I think short range firepower is excellent, I didnt really get to play much against flyers but there are definitely ways to mitigate their effect, and mobility is absolutely necessary.
How are you running Memph? Just keeping him behind the razorbacks? Divination / hallu some games and original powers some games?
I love meph, and I love the new powers, but memph just running around with 0 mobility just feels so.. meh. I don't think I'm getting his points worth if he cant move around with wings..
(Only way I'm going to run him with div powers is prolly in a stormraven..)
I dont use him as a wrecking ball, I use him for countercharge. I play a primarily shooty list and I need some kind of deterrent so people cant just bum rush me and call it a day. I have never had a problem with him on foot, seeing as he has fleet to reroll run and how my list uses range to reach out and touch things. I swap out his powers depending on the mission and opponent, usually one from Divination cause the Primaris power is helpful esp against flyers, and the rest from Telepathy. Invis and Hallucination are fantastic, and Psychic Shriek is a good fallback option if I get a power that won't be useful (Terrify against mech, Mental Fort, etc).
I would happily use normal librarians, but with Termi armor and a stormshield hes 145, and only mastery level 1 with a lackluster stat line. For the extra points, you get Mastery level 3 and a beastmode stat line. Its the difference between a mediocre support character and one that can provide excellent psychic support plus is a monster in melee.
I'm thinking of running a defensive/gunline list on Thursday, but don't really have any idea where to start with it. Can you guys help me brainstorm a list together? Its 1500 points I can proxy pretty much any model, as for vehicles I have 3 rhino chassis tanks which can proxy as any tank that size, a land speeder, 3 dreadnoughts, a land raider and a stormraven. All of these can proxy as anything there size. And infantry wise I should be able to field any model. Give me some ideas please
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a bit of an experiment I'm going to run this list tomorrow
Mephiston 250
Sanguinary Priests Power Sword, SB - Jump Packs 93
10 x Assualt Marines 2 Meltaguns Powerfist Sgt. 235
10 x Assualt Marines 2 Meltaguns Powerfist Sgt. 235
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
Ran the above list last night, against chaos space marines, it pretty much owned face. The Baal predators moved up in a scary av13 wall and tore down nearly a whole squad of marines first turn, krak missiles glanced a vindi to death. Meph instant feather kharn and assualt marines destroyed beserkers. Neither side had huge numbers left at the end of turn 7 but it was a dominant performance. My next match against this chaos army will be a 3k battle and I will post my list later.
Eldercaveman wrote:I'm thinking of running a defensive/gunline list on Thursday, but don't really have any idea where to start with it. Can you guys help me brainstorm a list together? Its 1500 points I can proxy pretty much any model, as for vehicles I have 3 rhino chassis tanks which can proxy as any tank that size, a land speeder, 3 dreadnoughts, a land raider and a stormraven. All of these can proxy as anything there size. And infantry wise I should be able to field any model. Give me some ideas please
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a bit of an experiment I'm going to run this list tomorrow
Mephiston 250
Sanguinary Priests Power Sword, SB - Jump Packs 93
10 x Assualt Marines 2 Meltaguns Powerfist Sgt. 235
10 x Assualt Marines 2 Meltaguns Powerfist Sgt. 235
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
Ran the above list last night, against chaos space marines, it pretty much owned face. The Baal predators moved up in a scary av13 wall and tore down nearly a whole squad of marines first turn, krak missiles glanced a vindi to death. Meph instant feather kharn and assualt marines destroyed beserkers. Neither side had huge numbers left at the end of turn 7 but it was a dominant performance. My next match against this chaos army will be a 3k battle and I will post my list later.
Perhaps fit a vindi in there? Perhaps remove a baal? Or the devastators. Remove the sword on the SP, no need since he'll prolly get challenged and you'll decline anyways Otherwise a stable list I'd say
Eldercaveman wrote:I'm thinking of running a defensive/gunline list on Thursday, but don't really have any idea where to start with it. Can you guys help me brainstorm a list together? Its 1500 points I can proxy pretty much any model, as for vehicles I have 3 rhino chassis tanks which can proxy as any tank that size, a land speeder, 3 dreadnoughts, a land raider and a stormraven. All of these can proxy as anything there size. And infantry wise I should be able to field any model. Give me some ideas please
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a bit of an experiment I'm going to run this list tomorrow
Mephiston 250
Sanguinary Priests Power Sword, SB - Jump Packs 93
10 x Assualt Marines 2 Meltaguns Powerfist Sgt. 235
10 x Assualt Marines 2 Meltaguns Powerfist Sgt. 235
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
Ran the above list last night, against chaos space marines, it pretty much owned face. The Baal predators moved up in a scary av13 wall and tore down nearly a whole squad of marines first turn, krak missiles glanced a vindi to death. Meph instant feather kharn and assualt marines destroyed beserkers. Neither side had huge numbers left at the end of turn 7 but it was a dominant performance. My next match against this chaos army will be a 3k battle and I will post my list later.
Perhaps fit a vindi in there? Perhaps remove a baal? Or the devastators. Remove the sword on the SP, no need since he'll prolly get challenged and you'll decline anyways Otherwise a stable list I'd say
I have actually been finding it more difficult to keep priests out of combat, than in fifth because of the extra pile-in moves, and yes I will refuse challenges with him when I have the opportunity, but I find the sword gives him a bit more bite, when I can't keep him safe. The devastators where worth there weight in gold, I think I'll add a second squad at 2k and a vindicator, I really enjoyed playing with my Preds as I never used to, and they're are one of my favourite BA angels units fluff wise, which is more often than not bigger for me than the maths of playing them. Thanks for the comments.
I'm pretty much loving the card powers on BA librarians. I mean, the funniest option is taking Mephiston and rolling Iron Arm, but there are other, plentiful possibilities. Getting Hallucination on your librarian, if you can roll well (which I happened to do ) can WRECK a lot of good units even if you go in slightly weakened, and debuffing a unit in terms of potentially emasculating them in close combat, and Invisibility is obviously highly potent as well, as the prospect of making a Swarmlord hit on a 5+ is almost hilarious, and the amazing cover saves are worth the warp charge.
Obviously, YMMV but I'm loving the Telepathy discipline and how it helps the BACC situation in 6th ed, as I was initially discouraged by the nerf to Furious Charge.
A naked Priest is a hold over from 5th. There's absolutely no reason to not give a Priest at least a PW as he has Look Out Sir on a 2+ and the Sarge can take the challenge if the challenger is nasty enough.
I agree with Ares. What's the point of having a Priest with no PW, LC, etc? Before he could be singled out in combat and die easily, now he's just another guy in the squad which makes him much more durable. Also he has Look Out Sir! to make him even more survivable.
If I can afford the points, I've been giving the Priest a power sword, he is much more survivable in combat now, and also with the extra pile in moves, its much more difficult to get him to avoid combat. Librarians I just give a jump pack, and in bigger point games upgrade him to an Epop. Sgts I mix and match with different unit load outs, and depending on what I'm playing, if I need AP2 and can afford to be slow, Power Axe, if I need AP2 and need anti dreadnought/vehicle, Power fist, and then if I need to be quick but can afford to have AP3 I'll keep the Power Weapon or Lightning claw, not sure which yet, +1 attack with the Power Weapon, or re-rolls to wound with the LC?
AresX8 wrote:A naked Priest is a hold over from 5th. There's absolutely no reason to not give a Priest at least a PW as he has Look Out Sir on a 2+ and the Sarge can take the challenge if the challenger is nasty enough.
Red Comet wrote:I agree with Ares. What's the point of having a Priest with no PW, LC, etc? Before he could be singled out in combat and die easily, now he's just another guy in the squad which makes him much more durable. Also he has Look Out Sir! to make him even more survivable.
This is why I love this thread. I had dropped the priest from my army lists because of the negative alterations of FC and FNP combined with his fragile nature (thinking in 5th edition). However, you raise excellent points: 2+ LOS and Sgt covering for challenges make hiding him in an Assault Squad far better than before. I may bring my priests back out to the table.
I don't really bother with SS, but I could consider it at some point, largely for the survivability in a challenge (but I'm not usually using them to win a challenge, if anything, they typically just absorb the blows of whatever horrible assault monster it fights) - I usually keep it pretty simple, maybe a power fist although an axe is probably good. LC is also decent, in fact, there are plenty of options. I dunno about giving him a special pistol or anything like that as you will (in all likelihood) have already taken meltas/flamers on your squad so there's not much need unless you really want that extra wound scored on that monstrous creature (which is absolutely fair).
Apologies if this is old news, but a Storm Shield makes a Sergeant pretty durable in a challenge if backed up with FNP.
I think this is a particular example of a common theme. Stuff that seems unlikely to have a major impact (like Deny the Witch for psykerless units) can add up to a powerful defense when it forces your opponent to succeed in a succession of rolls.
In the Sergeant's case, suppose the enemy hits him on a 3 and wounds on a 2, but at S7 or less. With a SS and FNP, the probability a given attack kills him is 12.3%, or slightly less than 1 in 8. Under these conditions, you need 6 attacks to have a better than 50% chance of killing him. If you give him a PF too, he wins on average against most flavors of Captain, for a cost of 63 points (assuming he's in an Assault Squad).
Against a "terrible assault monster", his chances are even better if he has 5 other guys left in his squad. You get 1 reroll per player turn then, which you can use on a 3++ save. I did the math in a different thread, and a Daemon Prince will only kill him every 1 round out of 10. He's can expect to beat a Tervigon and probably has a good chance against a Trygon (I haven't done the math on the Trygon, as the Scything Talons further complicate a pretty involved calculation).
Basically, to expect to roll over the Sergeant in a challenge, you need to be able to deny him the reroll per turn on his 3++, and also be able to not get IDed by his Power Fist. Is there stuff out there that fits that description? Sure, the Swarmlord comes to mind, and he isn't going to win against say a DP in a Fateweaver bubble, but I think anyone playing a DoA type list should be going with this loadout.
after reading the first few pages of posts i thought of equiping DC with bolters and chainswords.... the codex says Boltgun or Boltpistol. Then on another bullet says chainsword.
Am i reading this wrong?
Mr. E thanks for the math-hammer! That actually gives an interesting light to Sgt's since taking a Sgt. with only a stormshield seems to be worth it even though the cost in points is a little high since he doesn't have a 2+ armor which would really really help him out. Its a shame you can't upgrade him into artificer armor instead which would be pretty easy. Its worth a consideration though, but I feel naked Sgt's are the way to go and leave all of the killing to Priests and libbies.
That's just my 2 cents though. Glad I magnetized all of my sgts!
Troops:
--10 men assult marine with jump pack; 2 melta; sergent with power axe
--10 men assult marine with jump pack; 2 melta; sergent with power axe
--10 men assult marine with jump pack; 2 melta; sergent with power sword
--10 men assult marine with jump pack; 2 melta; sergent with power sword
Heavy:
--5 men devastor with 4 missile launcher
--5 men devastor with 4 plasma cannon
--5 men devastor with 4 lascannon.
set up
----all start on board.
----devastors hide in covers; attach the walking priest with the plasma Devs; with other 2 dev close by; all have fnp; dev use the high grounds / building
----libby +cobulo + chaplin + DC tycho right behind devs.
----Jump infantry closest to the board edge.
it is a defensive set up; with the long range damage done by lascannon; missle launchers.
mid shooting is handle by plasma.
when someone dare to get close to the devastors; send out the ic group;
assualt is mainly for support roll; jumping out to get armours and kill off softer targets.
might swap two unit of the assualt for DC for more aggressive play.
I think it's a little silly dedicating 4 ICs just to protect the Devastators, it might be better to just put some of them with the Assault Marines to buff them up.
What does everyone think about the Stromraven is about it's transport capabilities?
Do people still consider the SR a valid transport vehicle or is it now too risky. If you crash and burn you've probably just lost a great hunk of points...I can't decide how I feel about Skies of Blood. I think I would maybe utilise it to drop off a dread, although the 1/6 chance that it could be instantly immobilised is a distressing thought...But I don't think I'd use it to drop off infantry, if they haven't got JPs than the odds are you'll lose at least 1 model from the dangerous terrain test (assuming you’ve put a 10 man squad with a character or two in), if they have got JPs then the unit will have to be smaller anyway to fit in (so you'll want a unit that can hit harder when it arrives), but as an assault army our small hard hitting units are for the assault phase, but you can't assault following skies of blood....Might be useful for trying to pinch/contest an objective near the end of the game but again you're relying on the SR not getting shot down!...
What does everyone else do? Is the SR now just a gunship or do people still use it for transport. Also, if using as a gunship are Hurricane bolter sponsons a valid choice now, or still not worth the points?
Finally is Extra Armour still a necessity? Are any other extra more viable (more night fighting now, so spot light perhaps?.
Personally I don't really care for its transport capacity. The chance of pretty much anything I put in there dying is just too high for me to consider doing that especially since my opponent will focus fire on it to make sure what is inside dies.
I wouldn't take Hurricane Bolters simply because they are S4. If this were the GK stormraven it might be worth it if you take Psybolt Ammo and make it a glance it to death gunboat. Otherwise I'd avoid that. Only upgrade that's worth it is a spotlight, but even then I don't really feel its necessary to take spot lights on flyers especially since the Stormraven has to move 18 inches at least.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I think it's a little silly dedicating 4 ICs just to protect the Devastators, it might be better to just put some of them with the Assault Marines to buff them up.
nope; the priest naked is to give fnp to the devs;
cobulo, chaplain and DC tycho is hiding and to hit out on those who come close; they can be send to walk across the board as well; may be assualt marine goes first and this group of 3 ic follow; each of them have look out sir. cobulo will take all the small arm fire; the chaplain will take the 4+ invul; and his job is also to provide reroll to hit and to wound for DC tycho.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I think it's a little silly dedicating 4 ICs just to protect the Devastators, it might be better to just put some of them with the Assault Marines to buff them up.
nope; the priest naked is to give fnp to the devs;
cobulo, chaplain and DC tycho is hiding and to hit out on those who come close; they can be send to walk across the board as well; may be assualt marine goes first and this group of 3 ic follow; each of them have look out sir. cobulo will take all the small arm fire; the chaplain will take the 4+ invul; and his job is also to provide reroll to hit and to wound for DC tycho.
He can't help DC Tycho, because DC Tycho isn't an independent character so he can't be joined by the chaplain.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I think it's a little silly dedicating 4 ICs just to protect the Devastators, it might be better to just put some of them with the Assault Marines to buff them up.
nope; the priest naked is to give fnp to the devs;
cobulo, chaplain and DC tycho is hiding and to hit out on those who come close; they can be send to walk across the board as well; may be assualt marine goes first and this group of 3 ic follow; each of them have look out sir. cobulo will take all the small arm fire; the chaplain will take the 4+ invul; and his job is also to provide reroll to hit and to wound for DC tycho.
He can't help DC Tycho, because DC Tycho isn't an independent character so he can't be joined by the chaplain.
It's probably a good thing that he can't, either, cause he'd be so crazy dangerous....
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I think it's a little silly dedicating 4 ICs just to protect the Devastators, it might be better to just put some of them with the Assault Marines to buff them up.
nope; the priest naked is to give fnp to the devs;
cobulo, chaplain and DC tycho is hiding and to hit out on those who come close; they can be send to walk across the board as well; may be assualt marine goes first and this group of 3 ic follow; each of them have look out sir. cobulo will take all the small arm fire; the chaplain will take the 4+ invul; and his job is also to provide reroll to hit and to wound for DC tycho.
He can't help DC Tycho, because DC Tycho isn't an independent character so he can't be joined by the chaplain.
my bad, I am treating him as a single person unit; i.e. join by other character; is that not legit?
read it pg 39 single model unit cannot be joined by ic. need to re think how to do the list now.
Theoretically, but he'd get a psychic hood against it right?
Plus...that has to break his 2+, so they'd have to survive long enough with an AP2 force weapon and break through his T6 to wound him. It's conceivable, but I'm pretty sure that despite it maybe having happened in 5th ed, I doubt it'll happen in 6th ed very often.
Titan Atlas wrote: Theoretically, but he'd get a psychic hood against it right?
Plus...that has to break his 2+, so they'd have to survive long enough with an AP2 force weapon and break through his T6 to wound him. It's conceivable, but I'm pretty sure that despite it maybe having happened in 5th ed, I doubt it'll happen in 6th ed very often.
umm I'm not sure actually. It might be different between regular Force Weapons and GK ones too, since they function differently. Probably worth checking on YMDC. It'd be a rare occurrence anyway.
Hmm ok then so he should be safe agianst, the various units in an eldar army that can bring force weapons? I have a game against them tomorrow, and don't know what to expect with eldar
Most force weapon wielders need a 6 to wound him anyway (aside from GK which will probably use Hammerhand as well), so he should be safe. Just be careful to avoid weapons that cause instant death on their own, I know Dark Eldar have a couple like that. Not so sure about Eldar though. Mephiston should also watch out for Runes of Warding from the Eldar, because he could end up committing suicide from that since he relies so heavily on his psychic powers.
I suppose runes could be a bit of a problem, but even without his powers he could still be a beast. Does anyone have any other suggestions for hq? Against eldar. The list im running consists of 40 assualt marines 10 scouts and devastators. At 1500 points, im trying it as a horde angel list.
Mephiston really relies on his powers, if you're not using them then he's basically an over-glorified and under-powered Monstrous Creature imho. Work on killing that Farseer early if you plan on taking him. However, as long as they aren't running Eldrad then he would be really good for Deny the Witch since he's Mastery Level 3 and gets a better chance at nullifying powers.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Mephiston really relies on his powers, if you're not using them then he's basically an over-glorified and under-powered Monstrous Creature imho. Work on killing that Farseer early if you plan on taking him. However, as long as they aren't running Eldrad then he would be really good for Deny the Witch since he's Mastery Level 3 and gets a better chance at nullifying powers.
So stick with mephiston, kill farseers, and hope for no eldrad, sounds like a plan, I'll let you know how it goes, games tonight.
Eldercaveman wrote: I suppose runes could be a bit of a problem, but even without his powers he could still be a beast. Does anyone have any other suggestions for hq? Against eldar. The list im running consists of 40 assualt marines 10 scouts and devastators. At 1500 points, im trying it as a horde angel list.
I like the sound of this. Can you please post your list? Do you run the scouts and Devs as two -man squads each?
Ok so I didn't take Mephiston in the end, and I was glad I didn't as he bought units with weapons that can kill him in one shot, ignore his save and cause instant death, my list was
Reclusiarch Jump Pack 155
Sanguinary Priest x 2 Jump Packs
Assualt Marines 2 x Melta guns, Powerfist 235
Assualt Marines 2 x Melta guns, Powerfist 235
Assualt Marines 2 x Flamers Power Weapon, 215
Assualt Marines 2 x Flamers Power Weapon 215
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
5 x Scout snipers, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks 100
Devastators 3 x Missile Launchers. 120
1500
Now the mission we rolled didn't really suit this list, I was hoping for a heavy objective mission, however we rolled the relic, basically lots of things died trying to control the relic, and with a lucky run roll on the last turn I controlled it. So can't really say much towards how this list performed, the scouts were a waste because I couldn't have them sat on objectives, and the Devs never had much to shoot at, assualt marines, just multi assaulted units, but he had an avatar and wraithlord which caused me a bit of pain.
Hi just a question about equipping death company...
What do people consider the best load out for tackling most things, I know they may struggle against teq but hopefully do well against most other things.
I considered 5 with jump packs, 4 power swords and one fist, but for the same price i could get 10 basic?
Cost-efficiency? Don't give them anything, not even a jump pack, and give them bolters. More bang for your buck than bolt pistols and chainswords due to Relentless.
But as asked, you should say how much you're willing to invest in this.
Well I'm starting my blood angels slowly, so as an allied detachment in guard first. I'd be happy to spend up to 600-700 on it all including a reclusiarch hq or astorath, and a dc dread... so that leaves me around 300-400pts. If its under I can spend more on guard
I run my death company as an 8 man unit, 5 with hooters, 1 with powerfist, 1 with powersword and plas pistol, and one with a powersword, now its by no means optimised but at 230 points its certainly powerful enough.
SO the FAQ has come out and wow, Dante got nerfed hard with his weapon now being a power axe. Yes the ap 2 and plus 1 strength is good, but Dante has always depend on his High initiative to do damage. Looks like the same thing has happened to Astaroth too. On the other hand Sanguinary just got a booth with the new glaive encarmine rules, they can now maybe take on TEQs
It wasn't really nerfed at all. he can use Hit and Run, and I've managed to make the I1 on the strike too. Again, I've worked with the assumption that most of this was the case, and it's been fine.
Titan Atlas wrote: It wasn't really nerfed at all. he can use Hit and Run, and I've managed to make the I1 on the strike too. Again, I've worked with the assumption that most of this was the case, and it's been fine.
Alright I guess I'll take your word for it since I haven't played BA in a while. Still makes his I6 look like a waste for me IMO. Hopefully in their next BA codex (if they get one for 6th) he'll have the option of taking a regular power weapon...
His I6 is used still in Hit&Run and honestly that is the best part about him next to the whole making SG troops part and being able to DS without scatter with his unit...and having a death mask that nerfs other IC's...and an infernus pistol, and iron halo + artificer armour...and jump pack...and being cost-efficient...I think that covers it - he can assault or even be assaulted, and then after the enemy's turn, he just gets a really good chance of running, in which case I have the unit (I take several SG with Infernus, maybe 3 maximum) and get in a second bombing of melta and then pummel the guys. I like to also throw in a sanguinary priest, first for the FNP, second so that he can challenge or accept challenges, tie up the most annoying or an annoying foe, and then hopefully provide enough room to escape from an assault if necessary.
For 300 points would 10 death company with jump packs, 2 swords, a fist, and a hammer be a good choice for a TAC (except probably assault termies ie claws or th/ss) unit of them to use in an allied detachment for guard with the support of a reclusiarch (for the re rolls) and a dread with talons.
It would give (on the charge!) 30 standard attacks, 10 ap3, and 8 ap2 at I1..?
Sorry I am useless at equipping units for close combat, never had to do it with guard or necrons !
And now I discover Sanguinary Guard have the option of axe or sword form the faq I'm going to be stuck with them in the future as I was planning on getting some too haha!
For the Sanguinary Guard thing - wow, I didn't realize people were leaving that one up in the air! I feel bad for having used them with the assumption this was the case, but yeah...they're excellent with that, very good anti-infantry.
Titan Atlas wrote: For the Sanguinary Guard thing - wow, I didn't realize people were leaving that one up in the air! I feel bad for having used them with the assumption this was the case, but yeah..
Haha I had only looked at them briefly and just assumed at first they only had power swords (guessing many did as its been faq'd), but still that's cool they can possibly be kitted to take out termies then..
they're excellent with that, very good anti-infantry.
Guessing this is in relation to the Death Company, thanks! I was going on what's in the box too only being given one power sword kinda sucked when I opened it (i know I could model some from somewhere, and GW always do this, but still)... still 10 re rollable ap3 attacks with just the 2 swords sounds good to me! Thanks for the help.
Well, I was referring to the SG at that last part but I think that the DC on the charge, even with just no special wargear, bolters (due to their relentless) and a chaplain make them strong anti-anything due to sheer volume of attacks. I think my limit would be 15 men, bolters, a chaplain...although you'd need some efficient way to get them across the board and a unit of that size won't fit in much that's cheap, so jump packs (which in itself is expensive) but totally worth it, if not a really expensive way to go about it.
Based on the bitz in the kit, and the fact that it said they were only power weapons, it was pretty clear that Sanguinary Guard could take swords or axes.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Based on the bitz in the kit, and the fact that it said they were only power weapons, it was pretty clear that Sanguinary Guard could take swords or axes.
I agree. On another note: Sadly, we were not granted access to Flakk Missiles in the FAQ (unless I missed something reading through it).
Titan Atlas wrote: Well, I was referring to the SG at that last part but I think that the DC on the charge, even with just no special wargear, bolters (due to their relentless) and a chaplain make them strong anti-anything due to sheer volume of attacks. I think my limit would be 15 men, bolters, a chaplain...although you'd need some efficient way to get them across the board and a unit of that size won't fit in much that's cheap, so jump packs (which in itself is expensive) but totally worth it, if not a really expensive way to go about it.
Only thing I thought with bolters was they won't still get the second close combat weapon attack..? Yer definitely giving them a chaplain of some sort (reclusiarch most likely as the allied hq). I didn't think 15pts for the whole unit was too bad for jump packs. In a thread in the army lists section you helped out with I was planning on a storm raven, but even I do include on it'd be more as a gunboat to maybe transport a dread, after discussion there made me realise its too risky putting it all in there. I was thinking more to just jump the death company across the board in cover and out of sight. or DoA in out of line of sight.
I think for a total of 470pts, 10 DC (jump packs, 2 swords, 1 fist, 1 hammer) and the reclusiarch (jump pack, infernus or plasma pistol) makes a great allied detachment for my guard, add in the 125pt DC/Furioso Dread with talons (transport issues still) and that is one awesome detachment and a great start to my Blood Angels army.
Good to know about the SG, I have a box of them ready and waiting for when I've done my DC, mainly because they look so cool, so it's good to know they'll be usefull too lol!
yup. I just had a game and used them in a stormraven - due to bad luck the damn thing got stunned and was likely to get shot down (it did end up happening to it, just my luck) but on that turn I did a Skies of Blood successfully, desperately. However, if things had gone according to plan I could have easily murdered a powerful unit or two with relative ease, before they would likely have even gotten a response.
Yeah I usually Drop pod them. That way they land and get to rapid fire. Then they typically get hell rained on them from my enemy, but that's all right because it allows the rest of my army to live another turn. Next turn you have them rapid fire again then assault something. I think there biggest use when you drop pod them is to target a small unit or one containing their warlord and eliminating that. Then you will get 2 vps ( 1 for slay the warlord and 1 for first blood). I've also seen some recommend giving them a few IPs then dropping them next to a tank so they can melta some rear armor!
I magnetized them to take either the jump pack or the backpack.
Keep your options open.
Yeah I did this, infact of my of my units with options are magnetised.
I tend to run a smaller DC, 7 man with jps, 3 powers weapons, 1 fist, rest bolters and I also stick Lemartes in there because he's a bad ass. In my experience with DC, it's best pick your targets carefully, don't go after a deathstar unit, but use them to try and churn through energy troops choices. In an objective game you can put the fear in the enermy and you can hope they make more mistakes. (Note that this comes in at 465 pts, so it's not smaller points-wise, but it's a smaller man unit)
@evil, that sounds good, it was my plan to use them to go after troops choices and terrorise them whilst my guard (whilst building BA as an ally) could focus on elite infantry and heavy armour!
I guess this is more of a modeling question but as its been mentioned a few times what magnets do you all use? Never done it before but seriously considering it for this!
I run 7-10 DC with one hammer and one fist, usually led by a Reclusiarch. 7 with the re-rolls is usually enough to kill almost anything (aside from Paladins, or a full-size IG blob); 10 gives you more durability, against tougher enemy units and to improve their chances of lasting to kill a second or third enemy unit. In 5th I used to run them in either an SR or a Landraider. In 6th it's Stormraven all the way. 20pts a model is a steal. 35pts per model (with jump pack) is a massive cost increase, which doesn't enhance their hitting power.
Mannahnin wrote: I run 7-10 DC with one hammer and one fist, usually led by a Reclusiarch. 7 with the re-rolls is usually enough to kill almost anything (aside from Paladins, or a full-size IG blob); 10 gives you more durability, against tougher enemy units and to improve their chances of lasting to kill a second or third enemy unit. In 5th I used to run them in either an SR or a Landraider. In 6th it's Stormraven all the way. 20pts a model is a steal. 35pts per model (with jump pack) is a massive cost increase, which doesn't enhance their hitting power.
Do you find there's no need for power swords then? Is the weight of attacks enough to take out say a 10 man tactical squad.
At the moment im thinking something similar, 10 with hammer and fist, possibly a couple swords.
Jump packs, drop pod, or storm raven as the transport, possibly a land raider.
Yes. On the charge the 5 guys with BP & CCP put out 25 attacks, averaging 22-23 hits, 18-20 wounds. That's an average of 6-7 dead SM, not counting anyone the Reclusiarch kills, and before the hammer and fist swing cleanup. Swords are okay too, but not as good as they used to be since they don't swing before other SM anymore, since FC lost the init bonus.
Where would you put tyco? He doesn't seem to have a place in that army. Dante took a big hit and strikes at I 1 with the release of the new FAQ. The biggest thing that army lacks is anti AV (maybe some devs or a squadron of multi melta land speeders would do the trick).
Okay that makes more sense. I have never used tyco but everyone is ranting and raving about him with the advent of 6th ed. I like Mephiston but he is a big point investment. Attack bikes are arguably better then land speeders I just hate how they look. Missle devs will do the trick too though.
Tycho has some pretty damn decent wargear. And he would fit in perfectly with my Sternguard if I chose to bring them, and if I didn't, he could probably fit in with the Shooty Termies.
I've just played a game with Mephiston and he is still very usable. So long as you don't do anything stupid like charge him into a squad of Terminators he can still pretty much annihilate anything. And as always keep him in cover until he can charge something and he should survive long enough to do some damage.
@demdiddydizzy: I wouldn't use shooty Terminators, I haven't had much success with them. Assault Terminators are much more survivable and from what I know they tend to do a lot more damage as well.
mhmm. It's a fun idea, to think that he could actually do more damage on the first round of CC against certain stuff than say, Mephiston. Needless to say though, he does have his own personal limitations.
Troops:
Assault Squad (10) 2x melta, PF: 235
Assault Squad (10) 2x melta, PF: 235
10 Death Co w/ Bolters, 2x PF: 250
10 Death Co w/ Bolters, 2x PF, Drop Pod: 285
Death Co Dread w/Drop pod: 160
Death Co Dread w/Drop pod: 160
Elites:
Chaplain: 100
Heavy:
Stormraven, TLMM, TLAC: 200
Total is 1900. That gives me 100 points left.
I've only played one 6th ed game, and haven't really got everything figured out just yet. Any suggestions? I feel like I'm missing something vital here, but can't quite figure it out. The extra 100 points probably won't buy anything vital, if I have indeed forgotten something, but I tried to take into account the whole idea of DC being the new Chuck Norris and loading up on stuff that would hit hard and fast, and overload the enemy on deathstars.
I know that it suffers on shooting, and I have blatantly ignored everything about defensive units: tycho, sternguard, devs, etc.
Sorry if I disrupted your discussion on the merits of Tycho being awesome. I feel that this is the best place to get advice on this sort of thing, even if it means completely jumping in and interrupting you guys. Won't happen again, I promise.
Personally, my main gripe about that list is that, while DC are awesome and hardy for a number of situations, they cause you to focus on them and you don't have enough scoring units at the moment. I'm not gonna rag on about tac squads and the like, I'm still an assaulty guy, but two scoring units could mean trouble as if they get killed you're in the poop.
Ok, thanks. So, maybe replace the drop pod death co with a Jump assault squad and just buy a drop pod as extra, so that both dreads still get in on turn one. Also, If I don't take two DCs, Astorath doesn't really look as useful to me any more, maybe drop him for a jump libby? That's a saving of 150 points in total, making my list come out to 1750 exactly.
HQ:Jump Librarian: 125
Troops:
Assault Squad (10) 2x melta, PF: 235
Assault Squad (10) 2x melta, PF: 235
Assault Squad (10) 2x melta, PF: 235
random useless drop pod to get both dreads down on turn 1: 35
10 Death Co w/ Bolters, 2x PF: 250
Death Co Dread w/Drop pod: 160
Death Co Dread w/Drop pod: 160
Elites:
Chaplain: 100
Heavy:
Stormraven, TLMM, TLAC: 200
Still have all the scary toys I wanted, but with more meat for the grinder.
Well you've over costed astorath, but if you go for the 2nd list why not think about putting the dc in the drop pod, rather than the stormraven, and have the stormraven as a pure gunship, drop the dc in behind cover so they can survive a turn and then you have a scary unit behind enemy lines.
Yeah do what caveman said, put the chappy in your empty drop pod (as your DC can't assault turn 1 anyway, so the bonus he offers is n/a). Just hope you don't get all blasted to pieces by your opponent.
Looks like a fun list, as mentioned not gonna be a mega competitive list, but should be fantastic fun none-the-less.
I would also consider a JP priest (or two) for to go with the Assalt Squads?
6th ed makes my insane Sanguinary Guard army more insane... now you can no longer ap me with crappy PWeps, Deep Strike is more forgiving, and Dante rocks along still! Add in the WHFB style charge rules and dang a SG or DC army is gonna be the thing to beat!
Ok well im going to try get this going properly then, if someone came up to you and said, me, you tomorrow, 4000 points of madness, what would you field....
I know this may seem an odd place for it, but I think its appropriate. I wanted to let everyone know that I appreciate their advice/opinions on how BA runs now.
I have played with my friends for a year or so but have never bought a single model or book. When GW released 6th I realized that it was the perfect time to REALLY start playing the game.
Finally bought some models, read the 6e rulebook, and trying to REALLY see how to work the system.
I finally feel like I have decent grasp on the mechanics now, how the games fuses with the BA list of units. Especially after reading this forum.
The one thing I am known for at our table….making unbelievable drops. I hardly ever miss a scatter roll. STUFF LANDS WHERE I TELL ITTO LAND…..how convenient.
It is a rather expensive hobby isn't it? That's why I squeeze as much 'hobby' out of it as I can, it takes me ages to get anything painted!
Cool lists. So, I assume you've been DSing the assault squads, with libby and priest attached. Leaving your Devs to control the board with their range and letting the scouts sit on an objective and snipe units?
A good but dick way is run a GK RazorLasCannon Paladin army. 40 grunts, 4 or more Razors with LCs, I think Stern? I cant remember the whole list, fought against it and it was pretty tough.
With the new Codex dropping for Chaos Space Marines soon, what your friend is doing may very well change. However, giving an idea of what his list and/or tactics are would facilitate the discussion.
No offense to Sirmauz, but you do not have change factions to Grey Knights in order to win over Chaos. This a Blood Angels thread, and we will present a Blood Angels solution.
Never said that Goeh. If you want a BA solution, I can offer some of that as well, I was trying to let Goat know about a gnarly list I fought against, and that battle has nothing to do with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as for that issue, if you deal with a lotta Mech/Assault check out the Sanguinary Guard list I put up, play testing, it works pretty well on tankers. DS the fellas in close (you only scatter a d6) and go to town with pfists and inpistols.
I'm used to guard and necrons so primarily shooting, and so to me this seems a bit light on that front... should I be including more things like devastator squads or vindicators to make up for that?
I was also worried about scoring units with blood angels which is why I have the 3 10 man assault squads with the priests, they will be resilient hopefully and able to have enough presence in objective games.
The Storm Raven with death company is risky, and I may start the dread on the ground but then it can just get shot up. I do like this way of deployment for them though it fits the image in my head of blood angels.
This list isn't looking to be competitive, it's mainly for fun and coolness as I have my other armies for that - just looking for feedback whether it's viable though and areas I could improve on?
All I have so far are a dreadnought (not built), Sanguinary Guard x5, Dante, Lemartes, a chaplain, death company x5... so I am only just building this up. Wanted to build a list before purchasing.
Recently had a Planetstrike with my BA on the defence, alongside SW and DA. We won 11 (or 12) VP to 0, and I didn't think my guys would do so well on the ground, but we completely tabled them, big boost of my confidence in BA for 6th ed
Adam, are you used to playing against or with necron and guard? If its against maybe go with flamers on one of your squads, all in all though that's a pretty scary list.
Titan- any chance of a list? I played a 3k planetstrike game with blood angels against chaos, but I was attacking, blood angels are scary on the attack! I had everything bar one assault termie squad come down turn 1! I had wiped my opponent out by turn 3. So it looks like we can be devastating in all areas.
Titan Atlas wrote: Recently had a Planetstrike with my BA on the defence, alongside SW and DA. We won 11 (or 12) VP to 0, and I didn't think my guys would do so well on the ground, but we completely tabled them, big boost of my confidence in BA for 6th ed
TROOPS
10x Assault Squad (2x Flamer, Veteran Sergeant with 2x Hand Flamer and Melta Bombs)
10x Assault Squad (2x Flamer, Veteran Sergeant with 2x Hand Flamer and Melta Bombs)
10x Assault Squad (2x Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant with Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol)
FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder (2x Multi-melta)
HEAVY SUPPORT
Stormraven Gunship (TLAC, TLMM)
Stormraven Gunship (TLAC, TLMM)
To be fair, the Dark Angels took the brunt of the attacks, while the Assault Marines jumped around and harassed the enemy from the backline. I'm not sure if I'd necessarily run this sort of list myself in a non-team game though, since it was designed to work in concert with 2 other lists to make up for its weaknesses (such as lack of anti-tank, both close and ranged).
Looking at the new Chaos book I can definitely say that going all foot now for us is rather bad because the Heldrake really messes up all backfield scoring units and even Jump Infantry we might have in the middle of the board. It'll wipe us out pretty easily even with FNP. It looks like in order for BA to survive we have to good at being a Hybrid army of both mech and foot. I'm having a hard time hybridizing Blood Angels. Its so difficult to do.
heres my list. i heeded most of your advice, or tried to.
HQ - Tycho
8 DC 4w/PF in a DP
SRG - standard
2 rhinos
2- 10 man AS 2 melta 1 PF
1 rhino
1-10 man AS 2 hand flamer 1 PF
Drop Pod
10 Sternguard Vets 2 melta 7 combi 1 plasma pistol
we played short sided purge the alien
turn one. drop sternguard, split squads in to 2 5 man squads. destroy 1 land raider crusader w/ one volley, and take out a dreadnaught with the second.
it was down hill for him after that loss. pretty easy win for me and very awesome strategy. thanks for whoever suggested it.
I wzs just thinking of a similiar list "Dual Angels" is what I was naming it. Doubt our lists are similiar, I was thinking about a heavy dropods list with Deathwing assault allies. don't know if I like it atm, brought to stormravens for added effect, but I think this list is going to have to go the "ignore the flyers" route for victory.
What's the most competitive list that BA can do? Mech seems nice, but so does a pure footslogger army. Would a hybrid list be any good? What have people found to work well, and what doesn't?
I am not sure but I think the jury is still out on that one. Mech is still solid though, even with glancing things to death. That being said, I'm not really in it for a competitive experience so don't expect much from me
If you are having success with that list it proves that having an all Jump Pack BA army is dead. In fact having Death Company in a Drop Pod all with Bolters is quite amazing now. I saw someone at my FLGS have that and use it to great success. DC are amazing for being relentless and for the fact that they can use bolters. How has the Tactical Squad with the Plasma Cannon worked out for you?
The plasma Tac squad is like gold. It ensures that nothing gets too close without taking some heat. People dont really know how to respond when you deploy first and only have a tac squad and 2x5 man dev squads babysat by an apothecary behind an Aegis with a quad gun. So they in turn deploy defensively and leave themselves open for the rest of my drop podding / deepstriking / teleporting army to pick apart. I have to say I have NOT been impressed with the Librarian. Powers are hit and miss, and i seem to get the good powers when I dont need them. He is also not killy enough with only 2 force axe attacks.... Think I am just going to go for BA powers or the AP2 smite power, at least those I know I can get and I can then plan to use them more efficiently.
Had a game against a CSM with daemon allies yesterday. It is the second time I face this list and I have been utterly destroyed on both occasions. All his units have the mark of nurgle and are toughness five. If this wasn't enough they have defensive grenades which takes your assault extra attack and the Furious charge. Plus with epidimius on table after he kills twenty of my marines all rolls to wound are on 2+. Really have no idea how to deal with this. Will probably post on tactics to get some ideas
That's one of the cheesy Daemon/CSM lists making the rounds. They're expressly anti-infantry, so mech-up or shoot them when you can, and don't get your Assault Squads tarpitted.
I guess. I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the BAHTH abilities in 6th. I think in a tourney, you can catch some people not prepared for a jumper list, but there are too many lists that will eat you. Literally, in the case of Nids.
I dunno, I just recently won in a battle against Nids too, using Eldar allies for the lulz.
Personally though I'm a BA fanboy so as you've mentioned previously in other threads, it makes it that much more awesome to win even when people aren't so sure it's top dog anymore. And HTH works, I've just been making as much use of the new rules as possible (I use a fluffy hero with Telepathy powers and then throw that on top of the BA charge and it works out well)
I anxiously await the new codex when it comes out. Watch as it takes a decade for that happens, just because I said that
If you brought runes of warding, that's pretty huge against the Nids. That's more than just lulz. I mean if I had a 6x scatterlasers guided by a farseer, I could frag a lot of Nids and not even need to HTH them.
Likewise, I could ally with SW and bring two squads of grey hunters that can shoot and do HTH. But none of this actually makes the BA themselves good.
It doesn't really matter to me, BA is the only army I have, and I have a ton of them. I'm kinda all in. I just feel that in 6th I'm in over my head against most codices now.
I had not known beforehand if I was fighting the Nids dude.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and feeling challenged by other codices is not all bad, makes it feel more rewarding and the rush is better. Having allies doesn't just mean that you're using what seem like a weaker codex and adding on some strong guys from another codex. It's more like creating a combo that is otherwise not available, as the same thing can't necessarily happen with just pure SW or Eldar.
I've had my moments of doubt too. Then I kinda just rip through a few more games until I pull out with a satisfying win and remember why I chose this army.
So Death CO is best kept cheap; I'll keep that in mind when I write up some lists.
What are people's thoughts of a force mainly compromised of 2 squads of Sternguard, 2-4 Squads of Tactical marines, 1-2 squads of Assualt marines, a Librarian, Sanguinary priests, and some devestators?
The thought of running an all mech army or hybrid army appeals to me, but I'd also like to see how people run infantry lists other than the 6 squads of a assualt marines and sanguinary priests.
I'm not saying you knew your opponent, but if you ally with Eldar, its reasonable to take Runes of Warding no matter what, because they are so good. It is just can be particularly bad for some armies.
virx67 wrote: So Death CO is best kept cheap; I'll keep that in mind when I write up some lists.
What are people's thoughts of a force mainly compromised of 2 squads of Sternguard, 2-4 Squads of Tactical marines, 1-2 squads of Assualt marines, a Librarian, Sanguinary priests, and some devestators?
The thought of running an all mech army or hybrid army appeals to me, but I'd also like to see how people run infantry lists other than the 6 squads of a assualt marines and sanguinary priests.
I'm running a mech list right now. Based around 2 Baal, and 2 Pred. Its done pretty well. I'm using tac sqds with PG and PC in rhinos. It looks pretty formidable when all fielded. Hug the line if you go first, or back all the way up if you go second. With our fast vehicles you can get there.
On DC, I still kit them with JPs and PWs. 5 DC w/JPs and 5PWs. 2 axes 2 swords, 1aul for the strength boost. the AP2 and AP3 make huge differences. Pretty easy to hide behind stuff when you have 6 or 7 vehicles on the field + terrain. The maul helps when your vs IC as it knocks to I1 where the axes are. Pretty brutal if you get the charge....just make sure you get it. The JPs pretty much seal the deal on that.
I have 10 DC modeled with JP's, 3 with powerfists, it is one expensive unit though and only used them in one fluffy list game so far.
I, for the first time the other week, used libby with prescience, sang priest and 10 assault marines, wrecked a squad of wraiths in two turns. I usually use prescience libbys with devastators before that.
Ok as I believe the whole DC thing has been done to death and there's enough info scattered around this forum for all to form their own opinions on how best they should kit them out, I have a slightly different question.
Back in 5th edition the way to go for BA was mechanized, with the introduction of hull points in 6th edition and vehicles becoming a lot easier to hit in close combat, how have you all fared running mechanized lists? Does the old 5 naked ASMs in a Las/Plas Razor still work efficiently? What about Baals? They can't smoke in scout anymore, who still uses them and are they still effective? Vindicators are better now that the whole template is S10 and Fast got a bit of a trade off for firing an extra weapon but being easier to hit in melee. Storm Ravens got even more popular because of fliers.
Is a hybrid list viable? I've thought about running 2 Baals, 2 Vindicators and a SR and then filling the rest of my points with warm bodies. With the current rule set would this be a waste of time?
I think hybrid mech is the best option open to BA right now. Jumper lists suffer from poor ranged firepower. Furthermore, there are too many armies that can field units that chew up multiple ASM squads.
The bottom line to me is that BA vehicles are still fast, and this allows them to move into firing lanes and still fire when other marine vehicles can not do this. I still use a lot of las/plas razors, but now the deployment is very different.
At the 1500 pt level, I use a single full ASM squad with a divination libby and a priest to basically run interference for my small gunline behind the aegis line and shooty vehicles. I am well aware that this is very un-BA like, but I feel that I have to adapt to 6th.
5 man assault squads can still have utility in sitting on objectives. The strike first against anything charging into cover that doesn't have assault grenades. You have to keep heavy hitters away from them, and that's what the shooting is for.
Obviously this scheme is not perfect. But there is not going to be a perfect list or even a fearsome list necessarily come out of the BA codex in 6th edition. For all the ballyho about how to equip the DC, I usually end up leaving them in their storage slots because at the end of the day, I'm trying to win and I need scoring units for that.
I've been running 2 baal predator, 2 predator or 2 vindicators as the core. I usually fill the rhinos up with ASm w/MG. I don't own a storm raven.....yet but will be adding that to more core once I get one.
I've never liked the Razorback as much as the rhino, just prefered shooting safely out of the rear with my ASM or TSM's loadout.
Fielding a lot of HP is still a decent tatic, you just have to be careful where you deploy, and your AV facing and pray you don't get purge the alien against something stupid.
The las/plas configuration for BA is too good not to take advantage of, however. You get up to three AP 2 shots after moving 12", two of which are twin linked.
I've won games of purge the alien even with mech. Your target priorities change. And with many people not willing to cough up for the really dangerous ranged weapons, we can use our movement to great effect. I don't think running away is what GW had in mind, but it can work well.
Martel732 wrote: The las/plas configuration for BA is too good not to take advantage of, however. You get up to three AP 2 shots after moving 12", two of which are twin linked.
I've won games of purge the alien even with mech. Your target priorities change. And with many people not willing to cough up for the really dangerous ranged weapons, we can use our movement to great effect. I don't think running away is what GW had in mind, but it can work well.
I'm just not a big fan of putting of 35 points for 2 shots, one being TL. That 35 points is another rhino body on the field. 3 more HP. I'd rather just have a butt load of rhinos that block LOS to my real threats.
But they are high strength AP 2 shots on a platform that can move 12" and fire. I feel its better to field a bunch of moderate threats instead of a bunch of chaff and then a death star.
I've run this list for a couple of games now. I know it needs tweaking, but its been performing alright. FNP Tactical Marines are actually rather good.
HQ:
Mephiston 250 Points
Elites:
2 Sanguinary Priests with Power Axe and Jump Pack 180 points
Troops:
10 Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns and a Lightning Claw 225 points
10 Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns and a Lightning Claw 225 points
10 Tactical Marines with Plasmagun and Plasma Cannon with Rhino 235 points
10 Tactical Marines with Plasmagun and Plasma Cannon with Rhino 235 points
9 Death Company with Bolters and 2 Power Axes in a Drop Pod 245 points
Heavy Support:
Stormraven 200
Stormraven 200
So far my plan is this:
I move the Rhinos up into position bringing the tactical marines into midfield. One Sanguinary priest follows behind a Rhino and Mephiston does the same moving from cover to cover. The Death Company disrupt the opponents deployment and I purposely put the Drop Pod into terrain when Deep Striking. This means that the Death Company absorb a lot of the fire power Turn 1. I haven't had them blown off the board Turn 1 either so far.
The Assault Marines Deep Strike in and pop tanks or take out small juicy backfield targets. Another Priest goes with them.
The only problems I've had with the list are Plasma Cannons and Rhinos immobilizing themselves. I literally had a squad of tacticals do nothing all game because the area terrain I was going to move into was too tall for them to get around by foot slogging. Plasma Cannons are good, but it sucks that you have to stand still. I'm thinking of swapping it out for a Heavy Bolter. I'm not 100% on Mephiston either. He's great, but you have to know where to put him.
So in a 2K list, the only things on the board turn 1 are 2 Rhinos, Mephiston, a sanguinary priest and 9 DC in a pod?
The primary problem with this list as I see are spoiling attacks.
So you drop pod in some DC and shoot some bolters, and still can't charge because of the drop pod. If those DC get charged, they become assault marines. Yay.
Deep striking assault marines have a tendency to come in, melta something and then owned because they had to shoot instead of spread out. And they also don't get to assault.
If you are running dual stormraven as your only heavy support, you really need an aegis line with a commlink. On average, you'll get one heavy on turn 2 and one on turn 3. Given that many other lists will have 3 heavies on the board from turn 1, I feel that leaves you massively outgunned for too much of the game.
Not sure what this list does against terminators in a LR. Two melta shots from a deep striking ASM squad is not likely to take one out, and that's a suicide mission. This is a somewhat better plan for vindicators. but the price for failure is pretty huge........
I really feel like Mephiston is no longer a value at 250 points. he's AP 3 and can't join a squad and therefore can't use divination effectively.
I agree with Martel - if you're going to have two Ravens, you need a comms relay. You can place the Aegis and comms anywhere on your half of the board, so you can manufacture some sweet midfield cover for your tacticals or make a place for Mephiston to land T2 - IIRC you only need to be within 3" to use the comms, and then hopefully both ravens will arrive, allowing you to move on the next turn. The Raven's are too important to leave off the board for more than one turn.
Also, I always run my ravens (when I'm feeling mean and run two) with the hurricane bolters. 30 points is a steal for the extra shots - they only need to get a couple kills to make it worth the points, and after you fire the four missiles the stock raven doesn't have the armaments to use the 4 weapon/turn flyer rules without the sponsons. I'm usually running the Assault cannon and using the Raven as anti-infantry after I POTMS the multi-melta, so it makes sense to add a bit more anti-infantry. From the looks of your list you have anti-tank covered with the assault squads, so I think the same would be true for you.
Martel732 wrote:So in a 2K list, the only things on the board turn 1 are 2 Rhinos, Mephiston, a sanguinary priest and 9 DC in a pod?
The primary problem with this list as I see are spoiling attacks.
So you drop pod in some DC and shoot some bolters, and still can't charge because of the drop pod. If those DC get charged, they become assault marines. Yay.
Deep striking assault marines have a tendency to come in, melta something and then owned because they had to shoot instead of spread out. And they also don't get to assault.
If you are running dual stormraven as your only heavy support, you really need an aegis line with a commlink. On average, you'll get one heavy on turn 2 and one on turn 3. Given that many other lists will have 3 heavies on the board from turn 1, I feel that leaves you massively outgunned for too much of the game.
Not sure what this list does against terminators in a LR. Two melta shots from a deep striking ASM squad is not likely to take one out, and that's a suicide mission. This is a somewhat better plan for vindicators. but the price for failure is pretty huge........
I really feel like Mephiston is no longer a value at 250 points. he's AP 3 and can't join a squad and therefore can't use divination effectively.
What you are saying about Death Company is true. They can become Assault Marines if someone charges them, but this is why I purposely throw the Drop Pod into area terrain. It makes it difficult for opponents to blow them off the board in one turn or try to assault them. Most squads wouldn't dare to assault 9 Death Company though since I have 2 Power Axes in the squad. Obviously GK care nothing, but normal marines won't come in which is to my advantage. I also don't throw them at something big so they can be eaten. I would never throw them against Terminators.
Sometimes Assault Marines get blown away in one turn, but this is usually mitigated by deep striking them in a good spot or by deploying them on the board Turn 1. I haven't deployed them Turn 1 yet, because I've felt that they could do more damage coming in from behind my opponents and wrecking his backfield.
To be honest I almost feel like taking only one Stormraven. It doesn't provide enough firepower to take anything out reliably. If it was 130 points like a Vendetta I'd feel it was more worth it, but at the moment its such a sink in points that I'm considering running 2 Vindicators and fitting them into the list (somehow).
Termies are something I avoid. I played a game where my opponent had 8 Terminators in a Land Raider. I actually killed 7 of them and most of them were killed by Tactical Marines firing bolters and Plasmagun/ Plasma cannon shots.
Its not that Mephiston being AP3 is bad, its that Mephiston can easily be challenged out of massacring the whole unit. Its very frustrating going into an assault and wrecking a sergeant and then next turn there's another sergeant. This is Mephiston's drawback. Him being AP3 isn't a big deal if you know where to put him. He's a huge threat to Marines still. Other characters with 2+ armor and Terminators is a different story, but the meta isn't all about 2+ armor at the moment. People really over exaggerate his Ap3 Sword.
TheSanguineSauce wrote:I agree with Martel - if you're going to have two Ravens, you need a comms relay. You can place the Aegis and comms anywhere on your half of the board, so you can manufacture some sweet midfield cover for your tacticals or make a place for Mephiston to land T2 - IIRC you only need to be within 3" to use the comms, and then hopefully both ravens will arrive, allowing you to move on the next turn. The Raven's are too important to leave off the board for more than one turn.
Also, I always run my ravens (when I'm feeling mean and run two) with the hurricane bolters. 30 points is a steal for the extra shots - they only need to get a couple kills to make it worth the points, and after you fire the four missiles the stock raven doesn't have the armaments to use the 4 weapon/turn flyer rules without the sponsons. I'm usually running the Assault cannon and using the Raven as anti-infantry after I POTMS the multi-melta, so it makes sense to add a bit more anti-infantry. From the looks of your list you have anti-tank covered with the assault squads, so I think the same would be true for you.
Hurricane Bolters are pricy. I don't feel like its worth the points unless I'm running a GK stormraven with Psybolt Ammo. Its making an already really expensive flyer more expensive and its not adding all that much to the army in my opinion.
The DC has to roll against the area terrain as well. I find the pod to be an imperfect solution for assault troops. Your opponent knows what you have as well, and can deploy accordingly.
And my assault marines will absolutely charge them, axes or no axes, because then I'm only getting axed 4 times at str 5 a instead of 10 times at str 6. It's a no brainer.
Hurricane bolters are a hedge against horde armies and armies that don't have any flyers. If you're sinking 200, what's another 30 to bolt on the approximate firepower of tactical squad?
I'd assault 9 DC with 2 power axes any day, but then again I play Wolves so the Grey Hunters have about even footing with Death Company off the charge.
About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?
Changing the subject, used BATH/SS termies with a priest and my Epistolary for a fun little deathstar (Telepathy powers on my Epistolary) and it's fun to have a really big, survivable unit sometimes, and the added FnP was amusing that game as even when some 2+'s let some wounds slip through, my FnP saved the day
So i've just ran by BA for the first time in ages and got completley slaughtered, I've not really kept up to date with whats what for the Angels these days, so what sort of lists are you guys running at 2k now>?
I've had success with high model-count jumping lists, the option of combat-squadding my large units of jumpers or keeping them together is nice in case of objective games. Even though DoA is significantly hampered now I appreciate that they can still take advantage of their special rules.
Stormravens are quite excellent units at the moment, we'll see how long that stands but they're a very versatile flyer that we get access to so yay
People are loving DC, I personally find them rather expensive and their inability to score (giggity, or lack of giggity) is something that turns me off from them but they are quite efficient as nasty infantry with the new changes to Rage.
With the new revision to Night Fighting, it's good to maybe consider those little searchlights as they're huge bonuses if you use lots of vehicles and want a good edge early on.
Also, drop pods, I'm hearing great things about drop pods, if you want to go shooty, combined with the new disembarking ranges, you can unleash the hurt pretty consistently more often than not if you have a good target.
FNP is different, but I don't believe it's a bad different. Don't underestimate it, getting a 5+ against plasma is nothing to scoff at
Titan Atlas wrote: About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?
Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.
AV13 baal, preds, furioso and vindi are all pretty awesome this edition.
BA can also do all pod lists pretty well and pod lists are fairly strong this edition.
Titan Atlas wrote: About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?
Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.
I could have sworn you were using small units. You see, when I say MSU, I know what MSU means but I suppose I was thinking more in the frame of 5th ed when you had razorbacks everywhere lol I suppose now you're more about drop pods? Or did you decide against that after all?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, Jackster, the BA vehicles are pretty great this edition. Staying fast and the transports having good disembarking ranges, it's great, although the HP thing is a bit of a pain, but just a call to be more careful if anything.
I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet (don't fancy reading 18 pages worth of commments to find out), but I've had good results running a furioso dread in a drop pod with frag cannon and heavy flamer. Basically its job is to come in turn 1 and drop 2 str6 rending flame templates plus a heavy flamer on a unit and generally just try to disrupt my opponent's game plan. I use it a bit like you might a blood talon dreadnought but with a build that doesnt require it to get into combat to be effective.
I've only used one at a time because I tend to play at 1500 points and have a feeling more than 1 would be a bit much in my semi-competetive environment, but it is always a consistantly good performer
asters wrote: I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet (don't fancy reading 18 pages worth of commments to find out), but I've had good results running a furioso dread in a drop pod with frag cannon and heavy flamer. Basically its job is to come in turn 1 and drop 2 str6 rending flame templates plus a heavy flamer on a unit and generally just try to disrupt my opponent's game plan. I use it a bit like you might a blood talon dreadnought but with a build that doesnt require it to get into combat to be effective.
I've only used one at a time because I tend to play at 1500 points and have a feeling more than 1 would be a bit much in my semi-competetive environment, but it is always a consistantly good performer
I actually like that idea, since they dont give BA Lucius Pods for those Furiosos to assault immediately.
Though I think I'd go with Frag Cannon, Melta Gun and Magna Grapple. The Dread can pop a tank if it needs to.
Eldercaveman wrote: So i've just ran by BA for the first time in ages and got completley slaughtered, I've not really kept up to date with whats what for the Angels these days, so what sort of lists are you guys running at 2k now>?
Get used to this against good lists and good players.
The BA have lost of what made them feared in 5th edition. No more init 5, FNP is less effective against torrent, no more assaulting out of razorbacks. (Or Rhinos, but seriously, which BA used rhinos in 5th?) Also, Mephiston is no longer an autotake, Dante is now init 1, etc. Basically, we can no longer win some of the HTH combats we did in 5th, and when we do win, we take more damage. And there's random assault. And there's overwatch.
I think the best answer is that there is no easy answer. BA lists field fewer bodies than other marines and we have trouble covering our bases in 6th. Yeah, the Stormraven is good, but its also almost a must have at 1750 and higher to combat other fliers. This leaves fewer points for whatever else you are trying to do. Yes, drop pod fragnoughts are good. Yes, DC got better, but still lack *efficient* delivery systems and don't score. But I don't think these things individually add up to a good list. Our pod lists are inferior to space wolves, since we are a list that really needs to assault to maximize effectiveness. Space Wolves don't care if they assault or not.
Some people are swearing by mass jumpers, but I've ran into several styles of lists that just eat our ASMs now in HTH. So the mass jumpers will roll some lists, and get eaten by others, literally. Other try combined arms, which the jumper people scoff at. This brings more versatility, but greatly reduced HTH capability. I prefer this style because I don't think relying on BAHTH capabilities is a good idea anymore when you look at all possible opponents. It might do well at any given local store, but its only a matter of time until you run into space wolves or Tyranids. Or HTHCSM. (Who can get perma init 5!)
Martel, your negativity is misleading. I happen to play a fellow who regularly uses both Space Wolves and Tyranids, quite well, and more often than not, I do just fine. I think that part of your advice,
Get used to this against good lists and good players.
should be considered in terms of adapting with BA now too, in that we should also be combining our skills with our list-writing. They're not the big bad of 6th, true, but if you play them right, more often than not you give the enemy players a run for their money. True, you can easily do so while adding some allies, but running pure BA has also worked out well for me. I think the main problem that you seem to be stating is that BA lost a lot of what other players accuse of being cheese, and different BA players react differently to that.
Being a low tier list, which the BA are in 6th edition, does not mean you can't win or can't give other lists runs for their money. Being a bad list in 40K is like being a bad baseball team. You still win 40% of the games, you just don't have a good record over the long haul averaged across all players and all opponents.
Properly constructed an employed Space Wolf list or Tyranid list will more often than not munch a BA jumper list. It's just mathematics. I'm glad you are able to do well against this fellow, but it is but one data point. I have several BA players at my local store struggling to understand why they keep losing the matchups they used to win.
The BA, even at their 5th edition apex, weren't even the best list. I think that the point value of sanguinary priests was well balanced for the advantages they conferred on their squads in 5th. Not anymore.
BA can benefit from allies, but not like the Space Wolves or even vanilla marines. We've got a space wolf/IG list at our store that has lost 1 game out of 23. Now that's a good list and good player. The BA can not even touch that level of consistency in 6th edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BA can still write decent lists, but when you factor in what we pay for units and how they actually perform in real games, they are not as good as GK or Necron or IG lists, or even Orks :\
I feel I should step in on the discussion. I attended the 2nd most competitive tournament on the uk a couple of weeks ago or so. It was a 1850pts 5 games. It was my 1st tournament ever so I wasn't expecting to do that well specially since I haven't even played against most of the armies out there. Plus since I decided to go one just short of two months before the tournament and had no army whatsoever I decided to take what I already had or could build and avoid any possible delays due to online retailers not sending items on time.
After getting my ass heavily kicked out from necrons on first turn (loss 17-3), being wiped out by SW (20-0) due to mainly misfortune and losing the last game of the game on the last turn for being overconfident (9-7). I started the second day on the second last table just in fourth from the bottom and looking at getting the lollypop. Luckily all the bad luck I had on first day resulted on extreme luck on the second with almost tabling necrons on game 4, knocking down his lord and only unit on the table for two turns only to see him coming back on his feet twice, and getting pretty much all my armours saves on the last game, against another blood angels player with a dual raven list, making him to concede the game to me by turn 3.
But the overall impression I got looking at the tables is that any SM army is kind of equivalent at the moment and more mid tier than really top tier. The exception being maybe SW if played from a top player. So yes BA can still be competitive but not really top dog anymore. As for lists I actually wanted to go to the tournament to see what kind of BA lists would show up, but only 4 people took angels and the list vary widely. There real is no standard at the moment for most armies with the exception of Necrons and Daemons.
BA lists are going to vary widely, due to the lack of efficacy now found throughout the codex. Most units and unit compositions are now flawed in non-trivial ways. This makes for great variety of BA lists, I admit, but it is poor for competition, or even a local tournament for a lowly 50 dollar in store credit. The GK or Necrons will walk away with it every time over the BA because of the number of games played.
Space Wolves have the advantage of being non-astartes marines. Little things like having a CC weapon on your marines makes a big difference when building all comers lists. The SW can much more reliably handle enemy hordes with just their troops. Plus they have the double special and dump the heavy, which I feel is superior for marines in a role where they may be moving a lot.
Even though they are not the best list, I find CSM to be pretty offensive to me. They can field troops that are literally better BA than the actual BA. They get access to init 5, as well as FNP, as well as other awesome CC options. BA don't even get relic blades. Consequently, I do not have much pity for any complaints about CSM. If they want to complain, I present them Codex: Blood Angels. The BA truly suffer from the death of 100 little nerfs and short changings that aren't obvious until you play many games and look closely at where you are losing. (Other than dice; bad dice can invalidate results)
Titan Atlas wrote: About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?
Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.
I could have sworn you were using small units. You see, when I say MSU, I know what MSU means but I suppose I was thinking more in the frame of 5th ed when you had razorbacks everywhere lol I suppose now you're more about drop pods? Or did you decide against that after all?
In 5th I'd take 1 GH unit in a Razorback to camp objectives, although now I can just get Guard to do that for me if I want, and put my Long Fangs in Razorbacks just in case I rolled Dawn of War. Now it seems like Pods are the best delivery method, although I don't particularly feel like shelling out for 6 or 7 of them. :/
Titan Atlas wrote: About even, but the FnP would still give an edge along with the WS5. I dunno though, don't you typically use MSU's of Grey Hunters anyway?
Nah I use multiple large units, MSU would be like 5-6 models in a unit. Large units seem to be the way to go for most MEQ units in 6th because stuff seems to die very quickly.
I could have sworn you were using small units. You see, when I say MSU, I know what MSU means but I suppose I was thinking more in the frame of 5th ed when you had razorbacks everywhere lol I suppose now you're more about drop pods? Or did you decide against that after all?
In 5th I'd take 1 GH unit in a Razorback to camp objectives, although now I can just get Guard to do that for me if I want, and put my Long Fangs in Razorbacks just in case I rolled Dawn of War. Now it seems like Pods are the best delivery method, although I don't particularly feel like shelling out for 6 or 7 of them. :/
lol I get what you mean, but those cardboard homemade ones like the one you made are fun
Perhaps it would just be the Dark Eldar/Eldar that go before I 5. I will have to get out the codexes and do some research to see just how many high initiative threats there really are lurking out there.
it's a game 
!
