Kharn affectively has Eternal Warrior (Force Weapons), allowing him to ignore Instant Death from any weapon with the Force special rule. Not sure why that's so difficult for people to grasp.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Kharn affectively has Eternal Warrior (Force Weapons), allowing him to ignore Instant Death from any weapon with the Force special rule. Not sure why that's so difficult for people to grasp.

SJ

because they think that he has Eternal Warrior (Force Special Rule) even though his rules say Force Weapon.

Everyone is ignoring the fact that force weapons don't inflict instant death until after an unsaved wound has been inflited, this would happen at the same time kharns special rule kicks in, meaning that if the player who's turn it is decideds the order of the rules or if you randomise it, 50% of the time kharns special rule takes place before the force weapon activates, so for the rule to ignore the force special rule it'd have to ignore force weapon instant death before a force weapon was activated not after, thus placing the context at a stage of unactivated force weapons aswell as activated force weapons, from this we can discern the oringal context to mean, "if kharn sufferes an unsaved wound from a "force weapon"", not "if kharn sufferes an unsaved wound from an active "force weapon"". This means the force weapon, the weapon, not force weapon the rule. Meaning all instant death confered by a force weapon of any type. Considering a daemon hammer's special rule is to double the user's strength, which is confered by the daemon hammer, allowing the user to instand death an oponent, due to the daemon hammers altered attacks. The force weapon makes stikes at strength 8 which is ignored by kharn's rule.

alex567 wrote:
Everyone is ignoring the fact that force weapons don't inflict instant death until after an unsaved wound has been inflited,

You mean like literally ever Instant Death rule?

this would happen at the same time kharns special rule kicks in, meaning that if the player who's turn it is decideds the order of the rules or if you randomise it, 50% of the time kharns special rule takes place before the force weapon activates, so for the rule to ignore the force special rule it'd have to ignore force weapon instant death before a force weapon was activated not after, thus placing the context at a stage of unactivated force weapons aswell as activated force weapons, from this we can discern the oringal context to mean, "if kharn sufferes an unsaved wound from a "force weapon"", not "if kharn sufferes an unsaved wound from an active "force weapon"". This means the force weapon, the weapon, not force weapon the rule. Meaning all instant death confered by a force weapon of any type. Considering a daemon hammer's special rule is to double the user's strength, which is confered by the daemon hammer, allowing the user to instand death an oponent, due to the daemon hammers altered attacks. The force weapon makes stikes at strength 8 which is ignored by kharn's rule.

Not a single part of that is actual rules. Perhaps you should refer to them.

alex567 wrote:
Everyone is ignoring the fact that force weapons don't inflict instant death until after an unsaved wound has been inflited

... no.

Normally force weapons would requires a force test to inflict ID. However it is quite possible for a force weapon to strike at double a targets toughness.

In this case the daemon hammer strikes at str 8 so can cause ID without using the force rule. It is however a force weapon and force weapons cannot inflict ID on Kharn, so it still doesn't inflict ID.

pg. 37 main rulebook, force special rule, the test is not taken until after the unsave wound is inflicted. thus meaning that it is actualy possible for the force weapon to inflict instant death, before the weapon inflicts the unsaved wound, i.e. in the case of daemon hammers doubling the strength, I was refering to the context in which kharn ignores instant death, and it is not in the context of an activated force weapon, as previously discussed, but in the case of any force weapon, that is what I was trying to get across.

This statement means that people are perfectly justified to ignore double strength daemon hammers when taking wounds on kharn. I was just adding supporting evidence to keeping kharn alive.

If two rules happen at the same time, that oppose, then IIRC then the person who's turn it is gets to pick the order, or you randomise it? Don't quote me on that. That is what I meant by the 50% thing, but after re-reading it, an inflicted unsaved wound and an unsaved wound are to different things, i.e. kharns rule happens after the wound happens but before kharn takes it, also in the case of wound allocation where you take a save then allocate a wound.

alex567 wrote:
pg. 37 main rulebook, force special rule, the test is not taken until after the unsave wound is inflicted. thus meaning that it is actualy possible for the force weapon to inflict instant death, before the weapon inflicts the unsaved wound, i.e. in the case of daemon hammers doubling the strength, I was refering to the context in which kharn ignores instant death, and it is not in the context of an activated force weapon, as previously discussed, but in the case of any force weapon, that is what I was trying to get across.

You're wrong.
For any Instant Death wound you must cause an unsaved wound first. It's in the rules for Instant Death.

If two rules happen at the same time, that oppose, then IIRC then the person who's turn it is gets to pick the order, or you randomise it? Don't quote me on that. That is what I meant by the 50% thing, but after re-reading it, an inflicted unsaved wound and an unsaved wound are to different things, i.e. kharns rule happens after the wound happens but before kharn takes it, also in the case of wound allocation where you take a save then allocate a wound.

No, it's not if rules conflict - it's if two actions must happen at the same time. There's no conflict of actions here.

rigeld2 wrote:

alex567 wrote:
pg. 37 main rulebook, force special rule, the test is not taken until after the unsave wound is inflicted. thus meaning that it is actualy possible for the force weapon to inflict instant death, before the weapon inflicts the unsaved wound, i.e. in the case of daemon hammers doubling the strength, I was refering to the context in which kharn ignores instant death, and it is not in the context of an activated force weapon, as previously discussed, but in the case of any force weapon, that is what I was trying to get across.

You're wrong.
For any Instant Death wound you must cause an unsaved wound first. It's in the rules for Instant Death.

I was more refering to a force weapon able to inflict instant deat before rolling to be a force weapon, not at what time you actually kill the model, a daemon hammer inflicts instant death whether or not you use the force weapon rules, against targets half its strength value.

rigeld2 wrote:

alex567 wrote:
If two rules happen at the same time, that oppose, then IIRC then the person who's turn it is gets to pick the order, or you randomise it? Don't quote me on that. That is what I meant by the 50% thing, but after re-reading it, an inflicted unsaved wound and an unsaved wound are to different things, i.e. kharns rule happens after the wound happens but before kharn takes it, also in the case of wound allocation where you take a save then allocate a wound..

No, it's not if rules conflict - it's if two actions must happen at the same time. There's no conflict of actions here.

Kinda what I was trying to refere to, had conflict in my head, but meant something, else. I was thinking of some I1 versus I10 thread I encountered a while ago, and had conflict at the forefront of my mind.

alex567 wrote:

I was more refering to a force weapon able to inflict instant deat before rolling to be a force weapon,

heres your problem ... its always a force weapon. Force weapons give you access to the Force rule, which you may activate.

The blood god would be pleased with this 11 page debate over one of his favored sons. Wow! I would just let kharn not be instant gibbed... He has a special rule against anything force. Not your average rule everyone gets.

 Tri wrote:

alex567 wrote:

I was more refering to a force weapon able to inflict instant deat before rolling to be a force weapon,

heres your problem ... its always a force weapon. Force weapons give you access to the Force rule, which you may activate.

Again basically what I meant.

alex567 wrote:

 Tri wrote:

alex567 wrote:

I was more refering to a force weapon able to inflict instant deat before rolling to be a force weapon,

heres your problem ... its always a force weapon. Force weapons give you access to the Force rule, which you may activate.

Again basically what I meant.

Not really as kharn is not immune to instant death caused by the Force rule. He is immune to instant death from force weapons, doesn't matter how the force weapon tries to ID him, his rule lets him ignores it.

This has been going in circles for 11 pages because some people can not seem to understand that the way Kharn's rule is written is that he is immune to instant death from force WEAPONS, not just the force special rule. RAW is CLEAR and no matter HOW the force weapon inflicts instant death Kharn is not affected by the instant death given from the force weapon.

I also think IMHO that in this case RAW does = RAI

I leaning more in that direction now... RAW = RAI in this case.

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Bulls eye that is the correct wording, all the rest is rules lawyering and trying to exploit wordings resulting in cheating.

 Valek wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Bulls eye that is the correct wording, all the rest is rules lawyering and trying to exploit wordings resulting in cheating.

Sorry what?

Page 54 – Wargear, Nemesis Daemon Hammer.
Replace the first sentence of the second paragraph with the
following profile:
Range S AP Type
Daemon - x2 2 Melee, Concussive,
Hammer Daemonbane, Force,
Specialist Weapon,
Unwieldy.

If you are striking at strength 8 then you are using the above weapon. It is also a force weapon. Explain how a force weapon can cause instant death on kharn?

alex567 wrote:
If two rules happen at the same time, that oppose, then IIRC then the person who's turn it is gets to pick the order

that's a rule in Warhammer Fantasy.

 Valek wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Bulls eye that is the correct wording, all the rest is rules lawyering and trying to exploit wordings resulting in cheating.

So..A weapon doesn't cause wounds.

How do you get 2X the strength then? Do you just magically apply it out of thin air?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Valek wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Bulls eye that is the correct wording, all the rest is rules lawyering and trying to exploit wordings resulting in cheating.

So..A weapon doesn't cause wounds.

How do you get 2X the strength then? Do you just magically apply it out of thin air?

no, it seems they think a Waepon just applies a buff to the wielder, like all other equipment that isn't a weapon.

alex567 wrote:
pg. 37 main rulebook, force special rule, the test is not taken until after the unsave wound is inflicted. thus meaning that it is actualy possible for the force weapon to inflict instant death, before the weapon inflicts the unsaved wound, i.e. in the case of daemon hammers doubling the strength, I was refering to the context in which kharn ignores instant death, and it is not in the context of an activated force weapon, as previously discussed, but in the case of any force weapon, that is what I was trying to get across.

This statement means that people are perfectly justified to ignore double strength daemon hammers when taking wounds on kharn. I was just adding supporting evidence to keeping kharn alive.

If two rules happen at the same time, that oppose, then IIRC then the person who's turn it is gets to pick the order, or you randomise it? Don't quote me on that. That is what I meant by the 50% thing, but after re-reading it, an inflicted unsaved wound and an unsaved wound are to different things, i.e. kharns rule happens after the wound happens but before kharn takes it, also in the case of wound allocation where you take a save then allocate a wound.

yes, the force special rule. Kharn doesnt ignore instant death from the force special rule, he ignores instant death from force WEAPONS. The context is he ignores ID from a certain type of weapon. A daemon hammer is one of those types of weapons and thus he ignores ID from it. Doesnt matter if it is force ID or double toughness ID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valek wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Bulls eye that is the correct wording, all the rest is rules lawyering and trying to exploit wordings resulting in cheating.

false. The daemonhammer does not double the wielders strength. He is still strength 4 for strength tests like Necron Portal of Exile.
The daemon hammer is a weapon, that can be used in cc, rolling to wound at double the wielders strength. 6th edition changed, you need a weapon in CC and the weapon causes the wounds.

1. Nemesis Force Weapons are considered force weapons with additional properties. Force Weapons are always force weapons even if the psychic abilities of said weapon are not activated.
2. Even if the strength of a force weapon wielder is double the wounded models toughness so that ID is caused, Kharn's rule prevents that from happening because the weapon used was a force weapon. If Kharn was hit by a Strength 8 salami stick instead and failed his save, he would be removed by ID.
3. Grey Knights typically do not have other combat weapon options available besides their NFWs, so they will always use said weapons in combat.

The moral of the story is that if you are a GK player then shoot the poo out of Kharn instead of relying on combat to kill him, or smack him 3 times with your NDH and not worry about ID. Kharn is absolutley intended to be able to withstand force weapons of all kinds, he is the solution to GKs for the Chaos SMs. Both RAW and RAI are satisfied.

Looks like no one answered my question as to how kharn made it through the halberds yet.

I believe we are clear on this, Kharn is fine vs any force weapon until it does 3 wounds total.

Regardless, this thread seems done. Vote for lock?

 Valek wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Bulls eye that is the correct wording, all the rest is rules lawyering and trying to exploit wordings resulting in cheating.

Except you would be the one cheating, as (If you had bothered to read the thread) you would have known that 6th edition is very, very clear that WEAPONS cause close combat wounds. Not the wielder. All damage is caused byt he weapon.

Perhaps you can prove or retract? Silence is concession

I dont think it is okay to say cheating... there is clearly a difference of opinion which is okay.

I was echoing the poster

The difference is one between an actual literal reading of the rule and one that relies on literally making up language that does not exist in the rules

It is a little like saying the sky is green when it is, factually, blue. Yes, the difference can be considered one of opinion, but it is actually someone is factually wrong.

Those saying he is not immune to ID from wounds caused by a FW are, factually, wrong. There is no debate on this.

RAW it is clear, any force weapon cannot cause ID no matter the circumstances, but you can always settle it with a friendly roll-off if somebody disagrees. Keep your games civil.

 juraigamer wrote:


I believe we are clear on this, Kharn is fine vs any force weapon until it does 3 wounds total.

Regardless, this thread seems done. Vote for lock?

Definite vote here, it is just going to keep going in circles

I agree with the Chaos (shudder) kharn should be immune, but if that's the case just hit him harder with gun fire. problem solved. (this post seems like it will only go in circles so unless GW comes out with an FAQ it is impossible to get the real intended answer.) Maybe they really wanted to stick it to grey knight players? Who Knows.

Why do people assume a codex written with full knowledge of the 6th edition rules, made AFTER S8+ FW were about, is not intended to do *exactly* what it says?

Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

"...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."
I do not see what the fuzz is about.

Step 1. Would the wound inflict Instant Death?
Yes: Go to step 2.
No: Go to step 4.

Step 2. Is the wound caused by a Force Weapon?
Yes: Go to step 3.
No: Kharn is removed.

Step 3. Kharn suffers one wound.

These three simple steps can and should be followed for any Force Weapons, axe, sword, lance, maul or hammer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do people assume a codex written with full knowledge of the 6th edition rules, made AFTER S8+ FW were about, is not intended to do *exactly* what it says?

Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

Because it's still GW And even when WH is my favourite hobby, they aren't that great with the rules compared to my other hobby MtG.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

Yes as a patron of korn he has a thing about all things psychic and as such Force weapons are much less effective against him.

 Tri wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

Yes as a patron of korn he has a thing about all things psychic and as such Force weapons are much less effective against him.

Right, and remember that force weapons cause ID by using the rules on P.37

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tri wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

Yes as a patron of korn he has a thing about all things psychic and as such Force weapons are much less effective against him.

Right, and remember that force weapons cause ID by using the rules on P.37

They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

... rules states that force weapons cannot cause Instant death on Kharn. In 6th edition all most all wounds are from weapon, in this case the daemon hammer. Who cares how it causes ID (page 16 ID, 37 Force or38 ID) Kharn just shrugs it off.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

Except we are not talking about T6 models, we are talking about a T4 model vs either S8 Force Weapons, or T3 with S6 force weapons. Who specifically has a rule preventing unsaved wounds from a Force Weapon from causing instant death. It specifically points out "Weapon" not "Force Special Rule"

"That Weapon cannot inflict Instant Death on him"

By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

We will have to wait for an FaQ, since this issue is not clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

[Citation Needed]

 DeathReaper wrote:
We will have to wait for an FaQ, since this issue is not clear.

Seems quite clear to everyone else.

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

We will have to wait for an FaQ, since this issue is not clear.

You are the only one left man. ID is ID and Kharn is immune to ID from all Force type Weapons.

That is all. Now lets lock this discussion until something changes the rules so that there is actually something worth arguing about.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

[Citation Needed.

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

Not if the Str is not double Tough then they do not.

However a force weapon using the rules on P.37 can ID anyone that they can wound.

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

So..Force weapons cannot cause ID any other way now?

Bit much don't you think, since that means that Daemonhammers cannot benefit from double toughness wounding.

Interesting houserule though..Not one I'd ever allow, but still.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

[Citation Needed.

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

Not if the Str is not double Tough then they do not.

However a force weapon using the rules on P.37 can ID anyone that they can wound.

Well not quite anyone.

If a FW is Str D you're saying it won't cause ID other than the "force" rule?

I'm just wondering whats going on i thought the rule was simple:

For example, Kharn takes a wound from a force weapon from Inquisitor Coteaz whom has a nemesis daemon hammer, Coteaz rolls to hit and wound, and would do so with ease, hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's. His strength is 3, but with my friend placing him in a squad of greyknights hammer hand gives him 4 strength, the thunder hammer doubles that to 8, not to mention its ap2. Indeed a formidable weapon. So Coteaz wounds Kharn with a strength 8 weapon, compared to my toughness of 4 its already instant death without the "Force" Coteaz doesn't have to activate the hammer by passing a psychic test which would inflict instant death to any other model. As a chaos player and one who has Kharn as a HQ this edition, if i failed my 5+ invulnerable save ( To save from the strength 8 killyness ) i would remove him from the board. At the end of the day i'm not going to be >> LAME << Its still a thunder hammer guys. And if you want to get technical in the fluff Kharn gets laid low by just about anything and everything, even tho hes bad ass, hes kind of a pushover, so when you play Kharn dont be lame. I also want to point out that Kharn cant suffer an 'unsaved wound' from a strength 8 weapon, that implies that he fails his 5+ invulnerable save, so by this logic Kharn is already dead from a strength 8 weapon regardless if its a force weapon. He wouldn't be able to claim ' Blessing of the blood god ' . Another point i want to mention is that if the psyker assaulting and hitting Kharn has no warp charges left then he cannot activate his weapon and apply instant death after the target suffers and unsaved wound as that psyker hasn't got the juice! Lucky for him his weapon was a thunder hammer anyways ! Thank you come again!

DeathReaper you are correct.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
However a force weapon using the rules on P.37 can ID anyone that they can wound.

Well not quite anyone.

Right, anyone without EW, I thought that was clear, but I guess I needed to explain it.

If a FW is Str D you're saying it won't cause ID other than the "force" rule?

I do not see any Str D in the BRB...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

So..Force weapons cannot cause ID any other way now?

Sometimes, but that is not within the context of the rule. The rules tells us he can not be ID'd be force weapons. How do ALL force weapons cause ID? By the rules on P.37

Context matters, do not ignore it.

But this is just a rehash of a few pages ago, so it is probably best to wait for an FaQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sometimes, but that is not within the context of the rule. The rules tells us he can not be ID'd be force weapons. How do ALL force weapons cause ID? By the rules on P.37

... all weapons cause ID by the rules on page 16 ... so unless force weapons don't they also cause ID this way ... which he blocks because he block all ID from Force Weapons not just from the Force rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

This is absolutely false. Every FW can cause a double toughness ID wound. The potential exists, exactly like the potential for Force to be activated.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

There is no context other than that which is in the eye of the beholder.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

This is absolutely false. Every FW can cause a double toughness ID wound. The potential exists, exactly like the potential for Force to be activated.

No they cant, as there are T6+ creatures out there and Str max is 10.

Ignore the context if you wish.

But this is just a rehash of a few pages ago, so it is probably best to wait for an FaQ.

he only ignores instant death from the FORCE weapon rule, he doesnt ignore double str instant death....


seriously, stop being a cheese head you know that is not the rule, he gets wounded by a str 8 or 10 weapon, that happens to be force, he dies, end of story

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

This is absolutely false. Every FW can cause a double toughness ID wound. The potential exists, exactly like the potential for Force to be activated.

No they cant, as there are T6+ creatures out there and Str max is 10.

An irrelevant fact. Psykers fail to activate Force if they roll above a 10. The potential exists. I'm not ignoring context - you're inventing it.

Rad grenades drops a T6 model to T5 so a daemonhammer with the effect of Hammerhand can insta-gib it.

easysauce wrote:
he only ignores instant death from the FORCE weapon rule, he doesnt ignore double str instant death....


seriously, stop being a cheese head you know that is not the rule, he gets wounded by a str 8 or 10 weapon, that happens to be force, he dies, end of story

Yeah, stop being a "cheese head"!! Can't be IDed by Force weapons means he CAN be IDed if we say so over and over again and ignore the rules well enough.
We can't allow models to take more than one wound from a Grey Knight even if the rules are clear, it's not fair.

easysauce wrote:
he only ignores instant death from the FORCE weapon rule, he doesnt ignore double str instant death....


seriously, stop being a cheese head you know that is not the rule, he gets wounded by a str 8 or 10 weapon, that happens to be force, he dies, end of story

If it's a force weapon that's Str 8 he's immune to ID from it.

Read the rule again for more clarity.

Also please remember Tenet #1
1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

was he, or was he not hit by an attack with a str double his toughness,

yes or no

if yes, he dies, if not, he does not

having the force special rule does not override the str value of an attack

its still a wound caused by something double his toughness,

pg 16 "a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater" (not weapon, weapon type is therefor irrelevant for this particular form of ID)

so there are more then one form of ID, one for the force rule, and one for the 2x the str rule, the 2nd he is not immune to.

if he is killed by every other armies str 8 attacks, then he is killed by every armies str 8 attacks (he is immune to all force weapons as his rule states, not to 2x str attacks)

As a rule, if you are tempted to call someone a name in a discussion, that's a good sign that it's time to take a break from the discussion, have a refreshing beverage, and remember that this is a venue to have fun talking about toy soldiers.

Please keep it friendly, folks.

easysauce wrote:
was he, or was he not hit by an attack with a str double his toughness,

yes or no

if yes, he dies, if not, he does not

having the force special rule does not override the str value of an attack

its still a wound caused by something double his toughness,

pg 16 "a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater" (not weapon, weapon type is therefor irrelevant for this particular form of ID)

so there are more then one form of ID, one for the force rule, and one for the 2x the str rule, the 2nd he is not immune to.

if he is killed by every other armies str 8 attacks, then he is killed by every armies str 8 attacks (he is immune to all force weapons as his rule states, not to 2x str attacks)

He does not have protection from Force Rule, he has protection from Force weapons. They have a specific section in the BGB. Can a Force weapon ID something by being double it's T? Yes it can.

I also apologize to any one who was offended by my cheese head remark... i think the way some people are looking at the rule is cheesy, not your heads,

side note, it would say "kharn is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and by attacks from grey knights at 2x his toughness value" if thats what it meant, a str 8 attack, regardless of what weapon caused it, does not cease to be a str 8 attack just because everyone's "favorite" special marines are the ones inflicitng it

I suggest people play more guard, like i do, so you get used to your army dieing in droves... it numbs the pain somewhat

also battle cannons taking out "special" marines is quite theraputic


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


He does not have protection from Force Rule, he has protection from Force weapons. They have a specific section in the BGB. Can a Force weapon ID something by being double it's T? Yes it can.

so which is it, he is either immune to force weapons (ie their str value ID) or the force special rule... it doesnt say both

easysauce wrote:
o which is it, he is either immune to force weapons (ie their str value ID) or the force special rule... it doesnt say both

He's immune to ID from Force weapons (i.e. their strength value is twice his toughness) and to ID from force weapons (i.e. the Force special rule).

They're both ways that Force Weapons can ID a model, and Kharn is immune to both of them.

As above

DR, you kjeep saying to not ignore context, yet you are doing so yourself. The context of "Force Weapon" includes both the fact they have the Force Rule, and that they are weapons. There are 2 ways they can cause instant death to Kharne

The context is clear, you are just ignoring it and are restricting it with no actual rules basis for doing so.

He is immune to ID from Force Weapons, which must include Strength and Force, otherwise you are ignoring written rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR, you kjeep saying to not ignore context, yet you are doing so yourself. The context of "Force Weapon" includes both the fact they have the Force Rule, and that they are weapons. There are 2 ways they can cause instant death to Kharne

Except not all force weapons cause ID by Str Double tough because there are T6+ creatures out there.

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR, you kjeep saying to not ignore context, yet you are doing so yourself. The context of "Force Weapon" includes both the fact they have the Force Rule, and that they are weapons. There are 2 ways they can cause instant death to Kharne

Except not all force weapons cause ID by Str Double tough because there are T6+ creatures out there.

Just like there are Psykers that fail their test, don't have Warp charges, etc.
Both methods are "ID potential".

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Absolutely false.

A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

And according to you, a doubly enfeebled Carnifex would not suffer ID to a non activated Nemesis Demon Hammer. After all, Force weapons don't ID through double toughness.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except not all force weapons cause ID by Str Double tough because there are T6+ creatures out there.

All weapons can cause ID by double toughness. Just because some models have T6+ does not stop this being true, they can still be ID by a weapon that was double their toughness (It would require some weird weapon with a strength above the capped value)

End of the day there is no contexts other then he ignore 'Instant Death' from 'Force Weapons'. There are a number of ways this can happen, he could be reduce in toughness to the point that all attacks would cause ID but if that attack comes from a force weapon he's safe.

All weapons can cause ID by double toughness. Just because some models have T6+ does not stop this being true, they can still be ID by a weapon that was double their toughness (It would require some weird weapon with a strength above the capped value)

Strength: D weapons could ID them.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Daemon Hammer is not a Force weapon, it is a Nemesis Force Weapon.

Lol i bet you are alot of fun to play with.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Duely noted I'll gladly tell everyone at our LgS that the Str8 DH can only ID through the Force rule now.

As far as the Primaris psyker, you're telling me if he has FtHoC order which grants FC IIRC he would not ID T2 models?
Or if a scarab swarm was Enfeebled, and he is as above he would not ID the swarms? W/O "force"

Looks as if that statement is assuredly false.

rigeld2 wrote:

Deathreaper wrote:The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Absolutely false.

You read what I typed incorrectly. Any force weapon means all of them.

rigeld2 wrote:

Deathreaper wrote:A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

And according to you, a doubly enfeebled Carnifex would not suffer ID to a non activated Nemesis Demon Hammer. After all, Force weapons don't ID through double toughness.

No I never said that either. There are some cases where a force weapon will have S>=2T. But That is not the method for ID that all force weapons use, as not all force weapons are S>=2T

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Strength: D weapons could ID them.

And Str D weapons are on what page in the BRB?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Duely noted I'll gladly tell everyone at our LgS that the Str8 DH can only ID through the Force rule now.

You read that wrong as well.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
As far as the Primaris psyker, you're telling me if he has FtHoC order which grants FC IIRC he would not ID T2 models?
Looks as if that statement is assuredly false.

No as he is enfeebled 2 times so his S is 1+1 for FC, he would not ID any T2 models unless he uses the rules on P. 37

Or if a scarab swarm was Enfeebled, and he is as above he would not ID the swarms? W/O "force"

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

It is, however, the method all weapons use, and Force Weapons are also weapons.

So the context is very clear, you are just entirely making up new context to suit your argument, and turning a very, very clear and straight forward rule, with no ambiguity thanks to 6th editions VERY clear rules on wounds

 DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.

Primaris Psykers can not get Rad Grenades.

This is getting silly, posters such as Death Reaper and Easysauce are trying to use circular logic to justify why kharn should be affect by ID from a S 8 NDH. It is clear that whether the weapon has been "activated" or not it is always a Force Weapon, that cannot be changed. If you do not activate it it does not revert to only being a thunderhammer, it is still a NDH. Therefore, Kharn is not affected by ID period not matter the strength. If you don't like it too bad complain the the Codex author. I don't like it either but I'm not gonna cheese my way to getting what I want, I just deal with it.

< Taken by the void dragon >

Indeed. The claim that changing "power" for "force" means the context has to change ton *only* consider ID from the Force rule is bonkers - it has no basis in contextual reality

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.

Primaris Psykers can not get Rad Grenades.

Allies are quite fantabulous. While he might not have them, he may be in a combat that they're being used.

As to your other post back. I don't think I read it wrong, it looks as if it's written wrong.

I did misread the double enfeeble part though.

My question with the Primaris, he was not enfeebled.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.

Primaris Psykers can not get Rad Grenades.

The Grand Master charging into the same combat as him can.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Deathreaper wrote:The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Absolutely false.

You read what I typed incorrectly. Any force weapon means all of them.

Still absolutely false. Any Force weapon has 2 ways to cause ID.

rigeld2 wrote:

Deathreaper wrote:A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

And according to you, a doubly enfeebled Carnifex would not suffer ID to a non activated Nemesis Demon Hammer. After all, Force weapons don't ID through double toughness.

No I never said that either. There are some cases where a force weapon will have S>=2T. But That is not the method for ID that all force weapons use, as not all force weapons are S>=2T

 Che-Vito wrote:

easysauce wrote:

side note, it would say "kharn is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and by attacks from grey knights at 2x his toughness value" if thats what it meant, a str 8 attack, regardless of what weapon caused it, does not cease to be a str 8 attack just because everyone's "favorite" special marines are the ones inflicitng it

You haven't played GW games for too long, have you?
We're lucky if a change from one edition to another can clear up something like vehicles having unusable Invulnerable saves by RAW.

I'll hypothesize about this rule for you: imagine
"Kharn is immune to Instant Death caused by Power Weapons."
This would be anything that causes Instant Death and is a Power Weapon.

Similarly:
"Kharn is immune to Instant Death caused by Force Weapons."
This would be anything that causes Instant Death and is a Force Weapon.

The first rule wouldn't get any argument, while the second one does. Seems a bit silly, considering that both rules are referencing weapons, with no mention of activating the Force Weapon.

RAW is pretty clear, if you're using a Force Weapon, he cannot be a victim of ID
The wording of the rule is broad, and that could be intentional or not from the designers. For now, we've got RAW to work with.

not even close... power weapons do not cause ID, thats like saying kahrn is immuned to difficult terrain while in open terrain... it just doesnt make sense...

no weapon has ID in its rules,

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

A Str4 Nemesis Force Weapon so can ID a T2 or less model without being activated, because it's Str4 vs T2 or less (see pg 16 of the BRB).

SJ

easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

in addition, CCW do not have a STR characteristic, they simply affect the str of the models attack STR, ie +1 2x, ect, so it is never the CCW's str characteristic causing the 2x T ID, it is the models attack

the ID from 2x str comes from the models attack, no the weapons profile, no weapon actually has the ID rule, and kahrns rule says he is immune to force weapons, not the 2x t attack str caused by modifiers to the models attack str



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

no they dont, its not under the special rules for power weapons, the model may have 2x the targets T str value, but the power weapon does not even have a str value, it has a modifier on the characters str

easysauce wrote:
I also apologize to any one who was offended by my cheese head remark... i think the way some people are looking at the rule is cheesy, not your heads,

easy, I think you should read the Tenets of the forum. This is for arguing RAW. Whether we think its right, wrong or just plain dumb, it is RAW. If you want How I Would Play It, then just ask or state you are saying that. In this case RAW makes Kharn immune to Double Str ID from a Force Weapon as well as the activation.

HIWPI would be he is only immune to the Force activation.

easysauce wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

no they dont, its not under the special rules for power weapons, the model may have 2x the targets T str value, but the power weapon does not even have a str value, it has a modifier on the characters str

I said they can, not they have the rule.
You make attacks with a power weapon, using the models Str characteristic.
Therefore an attack with a power weapon can cause instant death.

 grendel083 wrote:

easysauce wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

no they dont, its not under the special rules for power weapons, the model may have 2x the targets T str value, but the power weapon does not even have a str value, it has a modifier on the characters str

I said they can, not they have the rule.
You make attacks with a power weapon, using the models Str characteristic.
Therefore an attack with a power weapon can cause instant death.

Your think of 5th where it was the user that stuck with bonuses from his weapon ... 6th the weapon strikes with its strength linked to the user (in most cases) .... (side note i can't wait for a weapon with Strength: Target ... )

No one read my post? a thunder hammer is still a thunder hammer lol? nothing confusing here folks

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
No one read my post? a thunder hammer is still a thunder hammer lol? nothing confusing here folks

Except that in this case if it is weilded by a unit from C:GK it would be a Nemesis Daemon Hammer ... and special rules that are applicable via pg. 54 in said codex.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
No one read my post? a thunder hammer is still a thunder hammer lol? nothing confusing here folks

And a force weapon is still a force weapon, thanks.

< Taken by the void dragon >

easysauce wrote:

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

Actually there are far more than 2 ways to cause ID.

In 6th weapons inflict wounds so if the Force weapon wounds Kharn he cannot be ID'd by it. Simple.

easysauce wrote:
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

So you are not hitting with your weapon?
In that case he will never have the STR x2 bonus, which solves the entire problem.

I get what you are coming at, but the attacks are still coming from that weapon.
Otherwise I could argue that in the other case the ID doesn't come from the Force Weapon, but from the Force USR.

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

Raw:

Page 50: If the weapon confers a strength bonus, the strength of the weapon's attack's is equal to that of the user after such modifiers have been applied.

Book itself says the attack comes from the weapon, RAW disagrees with you.

easysauce wrote:

not even close... power weapons do not cause ID, thats like saying kahrn is immuned to difficult terrain while in open terrain... it just doesnt make sense...

no weapon has ID in its rules,

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

Stop playing 5th edition. Pick your rulebook up and notice they are very clear that WEAPONS cause wounds, ranged and close combat. Note the basic CCW profile : S: USER.

Weapons cause wounds in 6th edition. You are arguing a point proven wrong about 10 times already in this thread, indicating you have not done anyone here the courtesy of actually reading it, as you are making a debunked argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

easysauce wrote:

not even close... power weapons do not cause ID, thats like saying kahrn is immuned to difficult terrain while in open terrain... it just doesnt make sense...

no weapon has ID in its rules,

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

Stop playing 5th edition. Pick your rulebook up and notice they are very clear that WEAPONS cause wounds, ranged and close combat. Note the basic CCW profile : S: USER.

Weapons cause wounds in 6th edition. You are arguing a point proven wrong about 10 times already in this thread, indicating you have not done anyone here the courtesy of actually reading it, as you are making a debunked argument.

Quoting for emphasis. People really need to read what they're responding to.

It seems to be an argument over wording of the rule now. So your saying that GW made Kharn just a bit tougher VS 1 Weapon the NDH.

I dont think so. Im voting that str 8 from any weapon kills him outright if he fails his invuln.

Its really a silly argument IMHO some read it one way and others read it another. Remember if it sounds to good to be true than it is.

< Taken by the void dragon >

If you're claiming that instant death from high strength isn't from the weapon, where is it coming from? You only have permission to use 1 weapon in close combat, reading through the close combat rules, all the attacks are made with the single weapon you choose. It's the weapon that gives user x2 strength, or S = user. Either way, the strength becomes the property of the weapon when you choose to use it at the start of the combat phase.

-Matt

As a veteran of the thread, i left it about two weeks ago. I thought it was finished. Deathreaper had been proven wrong (despite his ravings) and a general consensus had been reached.
I come back to dakkadakka to find this.
To all the people for believe kharn dies from ID; read the gakking thread.
Everything you can logically say to defend your position has already been debunked, by myself, nosferatu, rigeld or jameadean.
Open the rule book and read the rules concerning all the topics you are arguing. You will find that without making up context or false rules, there is no defense for kharn dying. The rules state very clearly, that he lives through it. And if you actually read the rules, you would realize that read as written: kharn cannot be ID'd from force weapons in any fashion currently.
Deal with it, and move on. Your efforts are wasted here.

Amazed that this is still going. Nothing new has been said.

When is this going to be locked?

Lungpickle wrote:
It seems to be an argument over wording of the rule now. So your saying that GW made Kharn just a bit tougher VS 1 Weapon the NDH.

I dont think so. Im voting that str 8 from any weapon kills him outright if he fails his invuln.

Its really a silly argument IMHO some read it one way and others read it another. Remember if it sounds to good to be true than it is.

You can vote for a houserule all you like, but it really CANNOT be read either way, as your houserule requires literally changing the words in the sentence to something else.

If you have a rules argument, different to every single debunked one on here, please present it for dissection, or note that your argument is "HIWPI" and not an actual rules argument.

How has this gone onto 14 pages???

this should have been over at the 2nd or 3rd

i am amazed at how people have managed to drag this on it is just basic english you cant really argue that this word does not mean this word or this word means these 9 other words

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Welcome to Dakka Dakka.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Welcome to Dakka Dakka.

SJ

A little confused here. You know that is not the way it works right jeffersonian? In 5th edition this was true, but in 6th edition you can very clearly read that qeapons cause wounds, not attacks. page 16 and 50 i do believe.
And yes, someone lock this thread already.

Neronoxx wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Welcome to Dakka Dakka.

SJ

A little confused here. You know that is not the way it works right jeffersonian? In 5th edition this was true, but in 6th edition you can very clearly read that qeapons cause wounds, not attacks. page 16 and 50 i do believe.
And yes, someone lock this thread already.

I'm pretty sure you meant Neronoxx, not Jeffersonian. Especially since my previous posts on this thread have supported Kharn ignoring ID from Force Weapons, not just from activated Force Weapons. My post that you quoted was my way of pointing out how badly Dakka's YMDC forum has slid in allowing something that requires no argument to go 14 pages of circular debate with no end in sight. I'll admit humor is lost on the interwebz if it does involve cats.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

Welcome to Dakka Dakka.

SJ

A little confused here. You know that is not the way it works right jeffersonian? In 5th edition this was true, but in 6th edition you can very clearly read that qeapons cause wounds, not attacks. page 16 and 50 i do believe.
And yes, someone lock this thread already.

I'm pretty sure you meant Neronoxx, not Jeffersonian. Especially since my previous posts on this thread have supported Kharn ignoring ID from Force Weapons, not just from activated Force Weapons. My post that you quoted was my way of pointing out how badly Dakka's YMDC forum has slid in allowing something that requires no argument to go 14 pages of circular debate with no end in sight. I'll admit humor is lost on the interwebz if it does involve cats.



SJ

Did this really just happen? back to back cases of not finding the right person in the quote?? I hope you meany mywik Jeffersonian, as Neronoxx was the poster of the last post

I can haz?

I meant the right person, your joke just isnt as clear or funny as you might think.

I thought my triple joke was quite funny. : )

SJ

alright time to end this pointless humor

catz