Nivek, when you use gate of infinity the models arrive via deepstrike. Do you feel that using gate of infinity makes you go into reserve, and your entire unit must have the deep strike rule to use gate of infinity? Or is there a distinction between going into Reserves with Deep Strike and arriving via deep strike.

Arriving by deepstrike is a common thing for many units who are not deep striking. Dwa is one of them. Don't forget dwa units can also deep strike as a completely seperate option. That alone tells you that dwa is not a deep strike per the deep strike reserve usr.

Here's some questions for you:

Do both player have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

Therefore when you are deploying your army whilst your opponent is deploying his?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?

ItsPug wrote:

 helium42 wrote:
Models using DWA are not held in reserve.

This idea has been debunked repeatedly.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P. 36 BRB

DWA specifically says you do not need to roll for reserves because they automatically deep strike on the chosen turn. why would they tell you not to roll for reserves if the unit was not in reserve?

Maybe debunked on your opinion, but there are other opinions out there.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P. 36 BRB

The DWA rule might alter some of the rules of deep strike, like the one that states that all models in the unit must have been placed in reserve. It certainly breaks some of the conditions of reserve, listed below:

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later... At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or rnore, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in reserve and is rolled for agaln next turn... At the start of your Turn Three, roll for any units remaining in reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in reserve and automatically arrives at the start of Turn Four... Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive frorn reserve. Regardlessof the modifier(s), a natural roll of a I always rneans that the unit in question remains in reserve....

So if DWA is allowed to break some of the rules for reserves (if you say DWA models must be held in reserve), then why can they not break some of the rules for deep strike (namely the rule that all models that deep strike must start the game in reserve)? Other units can deep strike without starting the game in reserve. Swooping Hawks that have skyleaped or units that deep strike via a GK librarian's Summoning power come to mind immediately.

When I asked about this issue in my local store, all 6 staff at the Dudley Games Workshop (UK) agreed that DWA does not bypass the Reserve rules. The store manager called his friend (and fellow store manager) at the Birmingham branch who also agreed.
Additionally, they added that the Throne of Skulls of tournament was quite clear that DWA does not circumvent the need to first put the Deep Striking units into Reserve before they deploy, they are still bound by the rules of the game as per the BRB. The consensus was that rule is designed to allow the Dark Angels player to Deep Strike from Reserve (as per all of the normal rules) but that DWA simply bypasses the need to roll for their arrival, giving the player a tactical edge of deciding which round they arrive instead of relying on a D6 3+ on turn 2.

This is good enough for me and settles the issue in my mind. If you disagree and your opponent allows you to keep your entire army off the table then feel free to take advantage of it. I will not be allowing Dark Angels players to employ such a tactic against me, at least until GW issue an FAQ explicitly allowing it.

Helium - it only breaks those rules it explicitly overrides, like not rolling. Continuing to claim that this is a new form of not-Reserves is, at this point, entirely unsupportable. It isnt opinion but FACT

Does it say they do not go into reserves? No. So they do. Easy

Fling - so a restriction during Deploy Forces isnt in place during Deploy Forces? Interesting new idea, I can now reserve anything I like, just by declaring it isnt part of deploy forces! Genius!

Yes you can reserve anything as long as you have permission to do so. The restriction on 50% is only when you are deploying your army. As yet no one else has permission to declare reserves at other time...

Nos, its not a restriction during deploy forces. It is a restriction "when deploying your army" that applies to units that "choose not to deploy" with the mission special rule Reserve. As i thought you were a raw rules reader, why do you use terms that are not written in the Reserve rule to support your position.

As to the UK stores, I have experienced similiar reactions here. While it doesn't apply one way or another to any of my dark angel forces though, I still believe adding the Reserve mission special rule to dwa, when dwa makes no such mention and works fine without it, is not in keeping with the intentions of the rule. They went to lengths to change when and how dwa units use dwa versus just using the existing reserve and deep strike rule. I see applying the Reserve special rule to dwa akin to applying tank Hunters to lemon Russ vanquisher because the vanquisher hunts tanks. The rules don't, or shouldn't, work like that. Reserve modifiers like out flank and deepstrike say they use the Reserve mission special rule. Dwa does not.

After reading through all 11 pages of this...ugh, I'm gonna lean towards they "no.they dont" crowd, however I totally agree that it is not clear, what is clear is that there will be no agreement on this and the argument is rotating around in circles, this thread needs locking

 jegsar wrote:
They have the option to start on the table, so you are still limited to the 50% rule. Having said that, I wouldn't want to play a list with no heavy support options in it.

I always thought this was a safe rule of thumb. Half of your army, which has a choice to be on the field or DS, must be on the field. Is this wrong?

 Formosa wrote:
I totally agree that it is not clear

In situations like this If there is equal weight, choosing the option that gives the action taker less advantage is the more ethical choice.

So if the rules may or may not allow you to take a specific action that has an impact on the game, don't take it.

Devian - so how are they NOT using the mission special rule Reserves, given you are told they are Deep Striking, all capitalised and key-worded?

Why, when everything ELSE that can ignore the 50% rule uses the word "MUST" do they NOT use this, but are explicit in your choice to do so?

Why, when the wording for TDA has changed did they bother to change it, when they wanted you to ALWAYS be able to be put in DS Reserves?

"DEploy Forces" and "deploy your army" are all in the same section, and the restrictions are in force throughout that section as they interchange force and army. YOur incredibly narrow reading has no support.

Nos can you answer the questions i posted at the top of this page. If you Do i believe you will understand the RAW as your argument really has no basis in the rules. You may well have an RaIl argument but for me the intention is not clear so i will follow RaW.

If you follow the RAW you also follow the 50% reserve rule.

I do follow the 50% rule. I don't see how putting my whole army into DWA is in conflict with that rule. Read that rule and tell me how i am breaking it by putting 0 units into reserve when i deploy my army.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I do follow the 50% rule. I don't see how putting my whole army into DWA is in conflict with that rule. Read that rule and tell me how i am breaking it by putting 0 units into reserve when i deploy my army.

Except the DWA guys are in reserve, that is what you are not understanding.

Therefore more than 50% of your army is in reserve.

Yes they are in reserve there is no rule anywhere that governs how many units i can have in reserve. So actually answer the question on how im breaking the rule on pg124. Please quote what part is being broken.

The part where, during deploy forces, more than 50% of your army ends up in reserves without permission to be there.

Not. Difficult.

It is clear, only a very very narrow reading which ignores forces == army (and therefore actual rules) can state otherwise. I prefer not to assume an advantage explicitly denied by the actual written rules.

There is no restriction on how many units end up in reserve though nos. So what are you talking about?

Is this another question you can't answer like the ones above?

I think you can just admit your argument is done now.

"W'hen deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so." P. 124

Is the DWA done after warlord traits?

Are Warlord Traits in the Deployment section? (Check P. 121)

DWA also happens in the deployment section or "Phase" therefore you must abide by only putting half in reserves.

So Forces != Army?

Is this similar to the TH/SS + Cyclone argument you were incapable of answering?

I've never said forces /= armies. I don't see how that's relevant.

I have scoured the Dark angels codex through and through and No where do I find permission to avoid or dismiss the 50% on the table rule.

The rule for Deathwing Assault is clear. Alowed to arrive turn 1 or 2 with no rolls needed and your opponent dosent know when.

A couple of you have stated you get to ignore the 50% rule through some magic of thought however let me pose a question to you.

If you chooses to deathwing assault your entire army on turn 2 would you then loose at the bottom of turn one?
Since theres another rule that states if theres nothing on the table at the end of your turn you loose.

Or does deathwing assault also magically remove this from your army also?

One more question..

Also if you are allowed to reserve everything to arrive on turn 2 and dont loose at the bottom of turn one, then WHY on gods green earth did GW FAil to mention this anywhere in the codex, FAQ or Digital version?

IMHO the reason for the 50% rule was to keep TFG from reserving all and walking on at the bottom of turn 2 Like he won the roll off and suffers no penalty and gets to shoot first. It was a cheesy way to play a game and Im sure they felt it had to go.I know I sure did.

 liam0404 wrote:
I don't have the codex to hand - the reason I ask is that it just says in Deathwing assault that "you can choose", so i'm not sure if this overrides the 50% restriction or not.

You "May" or "Choose" would be the same thing, Drop Pods "have" to arrive via deep strike, terminators do 'not.' You would only be able to have 50% in reserves.

Lungpickle i think you need to read the reserves rule there is no rule governing how many you must deploy on the table. There is also no rule restricting how many units you can have in reserve. Yes if you choose to DWA your entire army turn 2 you autolose. Just like if necrons choose to field their entire army in flyers...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So nos and the 50% crowd are you really suggesting that rule is active through put deploying your forces? So at any point i can put units into reserve as that restriction is only active when im using it to put units into reserve. By your interpretation if i deploy first i can wait till you finish deploying before declaring reserves?

Because the restriction on "army" is under the section on "forces", telling you that it applies throughout that section.

Your timing argument is no different to the same debunked argument given in two threads now

LOL-REALLY

when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units rounding up..

Whats that seriously its an amount of up to half rounding up, page 124 reserves

Under deploy forces page121 BRB.the player that goes first deploys his entire army in his deployment zone.

See these two rules work hand in hand. one says all or entire the other with the special rule RESERVEs allows you to reserve up TO half. IE 50%.

Essentially its a matter of your interpritation of a rule that you would like to benefit from. However terminator can deepstrike in without DWA. So you put your forces in reserve declair how they are coming in and at that point you woul;d say these dudes are using the DWA rule. Thats all the reserve limit is still in effect. DONT get me wrong I understand where your coming from. The onus would be on you to make sure you have something on the table at the end of turn one. I let my bud do this early on in the 6th edition and I just made him go first. It was a good game and we both got to shoot something in our turns.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because the restriction on "army" is under the section on "forces", telling you that it applies throughout that section.

Your timing argument is no different to the same debunked argument given in two threads now

so hopefully for the final time now it is not a restriction it is an allowance. I am allowed to put 50% of my army in reserves when deploying my army. Are you saying that allowance is valid for all of deploying.g forces not just when i am deploying my army like it says in the rules.

Even if this ludicrous statement was true it would still have no bearing on DWA which as pointed several times now does not occur during deploy forces and is not done using the reserves special rule.

Yes, it is permission. Which is also a restriciton on placing more than half in.

It really DOES use Reserves. You see those rules for Deep Strike, which require you to be in reserves, and those rules in DWA which mention not lling for Reserves....shock, its reserves

Your argument is as flawed and refuted as ever. Concede

So just flat out ignoring the rules and all direct questions and failing to argue any points raised.

So again I'll ask if you don't answer this time I'll take it as you conceding the point.

Can i put stuff in reserve at any point during deploy your forces as your interpretation makes me?

Do both playesr have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

Therefore when you are deploying your army am I deploying mine?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?

You already conceded the argument, I will not engage in your wall of text any further.

Can you answer why you seem to still think you are not placing them in Reserves? Given the rule DIRECTLY REFERENCES Reserves, I really want to know the convoluted knot of illogic you come up with this time.

DevianID wrote:
Nivek, when you use gate of infinity the models arrive via deepstrike. Do you feel that using gate of infinity makes you go into reserve, and your entire unit must have the deep strike rule to use gate of infinity? Or is there a distinction between going into Reserves with Deep Strike and arriving via deep strike.

1. Gate of Infinity takes place after the game has begun. 50% rule explicitly affects units that must start the game in reserve.
2. Gate of Infinity instructs you to "remove from the tabletop and immediately place back together anywhere within 24" ".
3. Gate of Infinity uses "deep strike" (lowercase), DWA uses "Deep Strike" (uppercase)
4. Gate of Infinity was written in 5th edition, an edition that had no 50% rule.
5. Gate of Infinity explicitly states every way it functions differently from the Deep Strike rules.

Take your pick.

DevianID wrote:Arriving by deepstrike is a common thing for many units who are not deep striking. Dwa is one of them. Don't forget dwa units can also deep strike as a completely seperate option. That alone tells you that dwa is not a deep strike per the deep strike reserve usr

The fact that Deathwing can make a normal Deep Strike is, in fact, additional evidence that a Deathwing Assault is a choice, and thus subject to the 50% rule. Drop Pods, Spores, Daemons, Marbo, they all mention that they *must* start in reserve. Nothing about DWA says they must start in reserve. The closest thing to DWA is Ymgarl Genestealers, because they both secretly write down information pertaining to when/how they arrive, they both explicitly say it's a choice (YG: "elect", DWA: "may"), and they both mention reserves. Ymgarl Genestealers are certainly subject to the 50% rule.

Thank you for finally conceding nos.

As for your question i can answer it (one of the great things about being right).

It is impossible to use DWA and be using the reserves rules to place stuff in reserve. That is because they both require you to act at different times. You can not use the reserves rule without breaking DWA. So you have a choice between breaking the rules or following them as i do.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Thank you for finally conceding nos.

As for your question i can answer it (one of the great things about being right).

It is impossible to use DWA and be using the reserves rules to place stuff in reserve. That is because they both require you to act at different times. You can not use the reserves rule without breaking DWA. So you have a choice between breaking the rules or following them as i do.

If you're not putting them in Reserve they cannot arrive from Reserve without rolling meaning they can never enter the battlefield.
Good job.

Nivek5150 point1. Is way of the 50% rule dictates what you can put in reserve when deploying your army. It is completely silent on what starts in reserve and has no bearing on that.

FlingitNow wrote:Nivek5150 point1. Is way of the 50% rule dictates what you can put in reserve when deploying your army. It is completely silent on what starts in reserve and has no bearing on that.

You keep criticizing people for not being able to read and comprehend the rules, but then you make incoherent, run-on sentences filled with inaccuracies and typos so that I can't even understand what you're trying to say.

If you're trying to construct a sentence telling me that the 50% rule does not apply to "starting" the game, you are quite incorrect.

Pg 124, BRB: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

Pg 36, BRB, "Deep Strike": "Some units that [sic] must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike... are ignored."

In any case, I give 5 reasons why his argument is invalid and you offer up a flimsy attempt at refuting only one of them. I take it you then agree with the other 4?

FlingitNow wrote:It is impossible to use DWA and be using the reserves rules to place stuff in reserve. That is because they both require you to act at different times. You can not use the reserves rule without breaking DWA. So you have a choice between breaking the rules or following them as i do.

That is a completely ridiculous argument. There are countless examples of models that use a specific rule, with certain extenuating circumstances, slight changes or alternate timing. These rules always explicitly mention how they behave differently than normal. Deathwing Assault uses the words "Deep Strike" and "reserves" in its rule, and you want to claim it has nothing to do with either one? The only exceptions Deathwing Assault is granted is that the controlling player gets to choose which turn it arrives from reserves without having to roll.

If we use the premise that DWA is not Deep Strike, if I use a Deathwing Assault and I scatter into impassable terrain or off the table, what do I do?

Okay. Read 12 pages now and still confused. I can see the argument for both sides and I am not advocating either way but I have some questions.

1. Units that must start in Reserves are not counted towards the 50% rule.
2. Units that can choose to start in Reserves are counted towards the 50% rule.
3. Units that are Deep Striking must start in Reserves.

So, here is my question - Does not using DWA (regardless of all the timing blah) change the status of the unit from being able to choose to be placed in Reserves to must be placed in Reserves as it is Deep Striking?

Now, I've seen people say "using DWA is a choice" but that is not the same as choosing to put a unit into Reserve or not. It's choosing to use a special rule. The choice to use that special rule has nothing to do with the choice to place a unit in Reserve, however, choosing to use that special rule then modifies the unit's status regarding Reserves, does it not?

Example:

I declare DWA on Squads A and B. Squads A and B now must be placed in Reserves because they are Deep Striking (not because I chose to place them there).
I choose to place Squads C, D, E into Reserves, thereby using up my 50% limit (rounded up).
Because Squads A and B are under the effects of the DWA rule they must (Deep Strike) be in Reserve and therefore do not count towards the limit.

So, if the above example is the case it would be entirely possible to nominate Squads A through D to DWA and start with them all off the table.

Personally from reading the rules I don't think they're clear cut enough that any consensus will be reached without an FAQ. I'm not fussed either way, I just enjoy the discussion.

It doesn't actually say in the DWA rules that the units are placed in reserves. It actually says that players do not have to roll reserves. So all I can agree with is we have a poor written rule. DW players will want this to work differently than all others lol.

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Okay. Read 12 pages now and still confused. I can see the argument for both sides and I am not advocating either way but I have some questions.

1. Units that must start in Reserves are not counted towards the 50% rule.
2. Units that can choose to start in Reserves are counted towards the 50% rule.
3. Units that are Deep Striking must start in Reserves.

So, here is my question - Does not using DWA (regardless of all the timing blah) change the status of the unit from being able to choose to be placed in Reserves to must be placed in Reserves as it is Deep Striking?

Now, I've seen people say "using DWA is a choice" but that is not the same as choosing to put a unit into Reserve or not. It's choosing to use a special rule. The choice to use that special rule has nothing to do with the choice to place a unit in Reserve, however, choosing to use that special rule then modifies the unit's status regarding Reserves, does it not?

Example:

I declare DWA on Squads A and B. Squads A and B now must be placed in Reserves because they are Deep Striking (not because I chose to place them there).
I choose to place Squads C, D, E into Reserves, thereby using up my 50% limit (rounded up).
Because Squads A and B are under the effects of the DWA rule they must (Deep Strike) be in Reserve and therefore do not count towards the limit.

So, if the above example is the case it would be entirely possible to nominate Squads A through D to DWA and start with them all off the table.

Personally from reading the rules I don't think they're clear cut enough that any consensus will be reached without an FAQ. I'm not fussed either way, I just enjoy the discussion.

Let me ask you this, does a model with DWA have to start in reserve, or can he start on the table? If he has to start in reserves (see Flyers, Drop Pods, Lictors) then they do not count. If they can be deployed on the table, they do count. FlingItNow's argument basically comes down:

1. They are not in Reserves and therefore don't count.
2. DWA is declared before you deploy your army therefore they must start in reserve and do not count.

The problem with 1 is that if they are not in reserve and they are not deployed they have no permission to come onto the table.
The problem with 2 is that if the 50% rule only applies when you are actually deploying, what's to stop the player who deploys second from declaring units are deep striking or outflanking while their opponent is deploying? Since the second player has declared prior to his own deployment to the table, all those units must now start in reserve and would not count.

anthXIII wrote:
It doesn't actually say in the DWA rules that the units are placed in reserves. It actually says that players do not have to roll reserves. So all I can agree with is we have a poor written rule. DW players will want this to work differently than all others lol.

Nah... I wouldn't care either way.

I'd just adjust my own tactics accordingly.

 Happyjew wrote:

Let me ask you this, does a model with DWA have to start in reserve, or can he start on the table? If he has to start in reserves (see Flyers, Drop Pods, Lictors) then they do not count. If they can be deployed on the table, they do count. FlingItNow's argument basically comes down:

1. They are not in Reserves and therefore don't count.
2. DWA is declared before you deploy your army therefore they must start in reserve and do not count.

The problem with 1 is that if they are not in reserve and they are not deployed they have no permission to come onto the table.
The problem with 2 is that if the 50% rule only applies when you are actually deploying, what's to stop the player who deploys second from declaring units are deep striking or outflanking while their opponent is deploying? Since the second player has declared prior to his own deployment to the table, all those units must now start in reserve and would not count.

Not sure what you're getting at here as my post was not in response to FlingitNow's post.

In answer to your question a model with DWA can; A) Start in Reserve B) Start on the table or C) Choose to use DWA, placing him in Reserve by default.

My thoughts on the matter are based around what constitutes a 'choice to be placed in Reserve' here. If the DWA rule is not in effect then yes, the unit does count towards the 50% because it has a choice. However when the DWA rule is played (remember that it's separate from Reserves, it's a special rule) any unit nominated for DWA cannot choose to deploy on the table they MUST be in Reserve. To my mind that suggests that once DWA has been played any nominated units cannot count towards the 50% limit because they must be placed in Reserve from that point forward. The choice to play DWA initially is not the same as the choice as to whether a unit can or must be placed in Reserve.

That's why I think this rule is ambiguous and needs an FAQ. As is it can be interpreted both ways.

It's not a question of whether the unit can choose. It's a question of whether you, the player, can choose.

Can I choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes, I can. So they count toward the limit.

Can I choose to deploy a Vendetta, a Drop Pod, or an of the units in a Chaos Daemons army on the table? No, I cannot. So they do not count toward the limit.

 Mannahnin wrote:
It's not a question of whether the unit can choose. It's a question of whether you, the player, can choose.

Can I choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes, I can. So they count toward the limit.

Can I choose to deploy a Vendetta, a Drop Pod, or an of the units in a Chaos Daemons army on the table? No, I cannot. So they do not count toward the limit.

As I said, ambiguity in the writing of the DWA rule.

Can you choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes. So they count towards the limit.

Can you choose to deploy a nominated unit of DW terminators on the table after the DWA rule as been played? No. So they don't count towards the limit.

The argument I see people making is that initially, you have a choice to deploy the unit or not but I don't think that stands as once you've played DWA that choice is removed. The decision to play DWA or not is separate to the decision to hold something in Reserve and so saying, "Can you choose to deploy the terminators?" before choosing to DWA or not is nonsensical. Once the decision on DWA has been made, then the question of whether a unit can deploy or must deploy is made. Yes, under normal deployment conditions the DW have a choice and so count towards the 50% limit but once DWA has been played it's no longer normal deployment conditions.

That is where the ambiguity is. GW needs to come out and say whether or not units affected by DWA count towards the limit. There's not much use in the discussion continuing because the writing is not clear enough to work out a solid ruling.

Please note that I am not arguing either for or against here, just my interpretation of what I have read. I have no intention of ever fielding a DW army even though I am playing DA... I like Tactical Marines too much

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
It's not a question of whether the unit can choose. It's a question of whether you, the player, can choose.

Can I choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes, I can. So they count toward the limit.

Can I choose to deploy a Vendetta, a Drop Pod, or an of the units in a Chaos Daemons army on the table? No, I cannot. So they do not count toward the limit.

As I said, ambiguity in the writing of the DWA rule.

Can you choose to deploy a unit of DW terminators on the table? Yes. So they count towards the limit.

Can you choose to deploy a nominated unit of DW terminators on the table after the DWA rule as been played? No. So they don't count towards the limit.

The argument I see people making is that initially, you have a choice to deploy the unit or not but I don't think that stands as once you've played DWA that choice is removed. The decision to play DWA or not is separate to the decision to hold something in Reserve and so saying, "Can you choose to deploy the terminators?" before choosing to DWA or not is nonsensical. Once the decision on DWA has been made, then the question of whether a unit can deploy or must deploy is made. Yes, under normal deployment conditions the DW have a choice and so count towards the 50% limit but once DWA has been played it's no longer normal deployment conditions.

That is where the ambiguity is. GW needs to come out and say whether or not units affected by DWA count towards the limit. There's not much use in the discussion continuing because the writing is not clear enough to work out a solid ruling.

Please note that I am not arguing either for or against here, just my interpretation of what I have read. I have no intention of ever fielding a DW army even though I am playing DA... I like Tactical Marines too much

The problem with the "DWA must DS because I nominated them" is the same as saying that any unit you nominate to DS must start in reserve and therefore would not count towards the limit.

Can you choose to deploy a nominated unit of DW terminators on the table after the DWA rule as been played? No. So they don't count towards the limit.

By that same logic no Deep Striking unit counts toward the limit, because Deep Strike says that a unit which is Deep Striking MUST be kept in reserve.

There's no real ambiguity here. Every single unit which doesn't count toward the reserve limit has an explicit rule stating so, and why. Flyers, Pods, Characters or other units in Flyers or Pods, and Daemons all have specific rules stating that they do not count toward the limit.

DWA includes no such statement.

 Happyjew wrote:


The problem with the "DWA must DS because I nominated them" is the same as saying that any unit you nominate to DS must start in reserve and therefore would not count towards the limit.

By that same logic no Deep Striking unit counts toward the limit, because Deep Strike says that a unit which is Deep Striking MUST be kept in reserve.

There's no real ambiguity here. Every single unit which doesn't count toward the reserve limit has an explicit rule stating so, and why. Flyers, Pods, Characters or other units in Flyers or Pods, and Daemons all have specific rules stating that they do not count toward the limit.

DWA includes no such statement.

Hmm. Both good points. I will have to go and re-read everything and think about it.

Why is this so difficult to understand? I'll try to explain using a simple example:

We have time points and marbles and rules when we can put marbles into a box:

Time point 0 normally nothing happen here
TP1 a states you may put upto half your marbles into the box
TP2 a game starts
TP3+ there are other ways of putting marbles into the box.

People are equating the rule at TP1 to you may not have more than half your marbles in the box at TP2. Under normal circumstances this has no impact. Then i introduce a new rule at TP0:

TP0 you may put any red marbles into the box.

I then notice all my marbles are red. I can therefore put them all into the box at TP0 without breaking the rule at TP1 because they never interact.

The rules here are the same but the box is reserves the marbles are units and red marbles are deathwing. Are you seeing your mistake yet?

There is no restriction on how many units start the game either in reserve or on the table. There only an allowance to place units in reserve when you are deploying your army. That allowance only occurs at that point it has no impact on how many units are in reserve at any other point in the game.

Sorry about typos im on my phone with a bad touch screen and next to no ability to edit.

This really says it all:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your timing argument is no different to the same debunked argument given in two threads now

Yes it does deathreaper it says that you have no rules arguments and highlights how unable your side is to answer a simple question.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why is this so difficult to understand? I'll try to explain using a simple example:

We have time points and marbles and rules when we can put marbles into a box:

Time point 0 normally nothing happen here
TP1 a states you may put upto half your marbles into the box
TP2 a game starts
TP3+ there are other ways of putting marbles into the box.

People are equating the rule at TP1 to you may not have more than half your marbles in the box at TP2. Under normal circumstances this has no impact. Then i introduce a new rule at TP0:

TP0 you may put any red marbles into the box.

I then notice all my marbles are red. I can therefore put them all into the box at TP0 without breaking the rule at TP1 because they never interact.

The rules here are the same but the box is reserves the marbles are units and red marbles are deathwing. Are you seeing your mistake yet?

There is no restriction on how many units start the game either in reserve or on the table. There only an allowance to place units in reserve when you are deploying your army. That allowance only occurs at that point it has no impact on how many units are in reserve at any other point in the game.

Sorry about typos im on my phone with a bad touch screen and next to no ability to edit.

Yeah let's simplify things using marbles and variables.

You seem to be mistaking people telling you that you're wrong with people not understanding your argument. We get it. You think that once you declare them to be doing a DWA, they are stuck there so it's no longer a choice, and thus can bypass the 50% rule. We all understand your argument. The problem is that you're wrong.

I'm gonna go outside and choose to murder somebody. But when the cops come to arrest me, I'll explain to them that once I made the decision to murder somebody, it was no longer a choice because I couldn't change my mind after my victim was dead, so the law doesn't apply to me. I'm sure that'll go over well.

Nivek did you even read the post? Do you know that murder is illegal at all times. For instance it is illegal to smoke in a shop that does not mean someone smoking outside can get done for it. It is against the rules to put more than half your units in a reserve when deploying your army. There is no restriction on how many units you can put in reserves at any other time or how many you have in reserve at any time.

Do not ignore when DWA happens.

Also do not ignore the Deployment section of the BRB where the first entry is Determine Warlord Traits.

It is illegal to murder people because there is a rule against it, yes. However, governments execute people all the time and soldiers around the world are paid to kill other people. Because they have been granted an explicit exception to the law.

This metaphor is far more fitting than putting marbles in a time-coded box.

You are NEVER allowed to break the 50% rule unless you are EXPLICITLY given permission.

Thank you deathreaper i am not ignoring with DWA happens you are ignoring when you are allowed to put units into reserve using the reserves special rule. You can't put units into reserve when your opponent is deploying because you have no permission to.

Nivek you need to read the reserves rule. Seriously read it read what it actually says and then come back and tell me where it says you can not ever have more than 50% of your units in reserve.

I have been confused by this aswell. Paragraph 2 of the deep strike special rule seams to be lead to they dont count. It states " when working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed via deep strike are ignored". As units making deathwing assault are selected before the deployment phase and must deep strike i would say they dont count.

Nivek, the 50% rule is also not written how you claim.

"When deploying your army, You may choose not to deploy up to half your units."

Are you deploying your army when using dwa or rolling warlord traits or rolling psychic powers? No. Dwa fails this first criteria. Dwa is in deployment, but the rules specifically state that dwa is one at a different time than when a player deploys their army.

When deploying your army, can a unit that already choose to dwa make a choice about deploying on the table? No, dwa fails he second criteria. Dwa is a separate choice than deep strike or normal Reserve. The choice to dwa happens before he other two and takes away further choices.

Does dwa even use the Reserve special rule like models using deep strike do? No. The rule reads that a model uses dwa to arrive by deep strike and there is no need to roll for reserve. You are not using deep strike, which the models can choose to do if hey don't dwa.

Tyrant, dwa happens in deployment but before you deploy your army. Also units using dwa arrive by deep strike, but they are not put in reserve to deep strike. With dwa, you need never reference the different reserve special rule at all.

I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive that give you permission at a specific to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

Fling - you conceded when you repeated the same debunked argument, and when you decided in a baffling move that a model that is explicitly in reserves isnt actually in reserves

Or are you trying to pretend that you didnt make that hilarious argument?

 FlingitNow wrote:
I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive that give you permission at a specific to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

Is this a sentence? I don't even know what this is supposed to say. Your continuing futile attempts at the English language are all the proof anyone needs that you aren't capable of grasping what a rule is telling you.

DevianID wrote:Nivek, the 50% rule is also not written how you claim.

It's not a "claim", it's a direct quote from the rulebook, copied verbatim with the page number cited. Do you own a copy of the rule book? Please go to page 124 and read the first two sentences of "Preparing reserves", then compare it to what I quoted.

Warlord Traits take place during deployment. When you declare DWA "immediately after rolling for Warlord traits", you have already begun deployment. That's why right above it it says "DEPLOYMENT" in giant block letters with a line underneath it. That's called formatting, and it is used with the written word to designate that what follows is all part of the designated topic. They put the words "immediately after rolling for Warlord traits" in the DWA rule so that you know you have to declare it to your opponent before either you or they begin to place models on the board, because if you waited any longer you would have an unfair advantage.

The really interesting thing here is if DWA takes place after warlord triats that means it happens before psychic power generation.

Right that sentence was supposed to say this:

I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive rules that gives you permission, at a specific time, to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

As explained my phone is really hampering me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fling - you conceded when you repeated the same debunked argument, and when you decided in a baffling move that a model that is explicitly in reserves isnt actually in reserves

Or are you trying to pretend that you didnt make that hilarious argument?

Are you going to admit you got it wrong or are you going to answer the questions?

DWA is not done when i am deploying my army so how can i be using the 50% allowance rules in the reserves special rule? So DWA is not using the reserves rule to put units in reserve just as gate of infinity is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So again I'll ask if anyone thinking that the allowance to put 50% of my units i. Reserve magically creates an un mentioned restriction rule that somehow effects DWA please answer the below questions. If not I'll tke it as you conceding the point.

Can i put stuff in reserve at any point during deploy your forces as your interpretation makes me?

Do both playesr have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

Therefore when you are deploying your army am I deploying mine?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?

This is probably going to get overlooked because it's more of an RAI post in a rules section, but here we go.

Wasn't the difference in reserves rules between 5th and 6th primarily to address the trend commonly seen in tourneys where the guy who lost initiative put his entire army in reserve so his opponent had nothing to shoot at? Thereby giving the TFG the first turn and shortening the game by his opponents one lost turn (making it a 5 turn game for the starting player and a 6 turn game for TFG).

My thinking is that the benefit of DWA isn't that it ignores the reserve rules at all, but
1.) gives the DW player the tactical advantage of choosing to actually arrive on the first turn (which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2) thereby ignoring casualties to chose unit should the DW player lose the initiate. And...
2.)Predetermining which DWA units in the army arrive on what turn (1 or 2) without having to deal with the randomness that the reserve roll can sometimes incur, messing up the player's battle plan.

IMO playing an army (whether it's my beloved DW or another) that always goes first and sometimes shortens the opponents number of turns (well at least shooting turns) is kind of cheese.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

Via the Drop Pod Assault rule found in various codices correct? But don't regular units arriving off board without the benefit of a rule intrinsic to that specific unit arrive on turns 2+?

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

Via the Drop Pod Assault rule found in various codices correct? But don't regular units arriving off board without the benefit of a rule intrinsic to that specific unit arrive on turns 2+?

Yes normally units arrive turn 2 or later.

However Drop pods must start the game in reserve to be able to Deep Strike, Even the pods that arrive turn 1 are still in reserve.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
(which I believe you don't normally start arriving from reserves until turn 2)

This is incorrect. Half of an armies Drop Pods arrive from Reserve on turn 1.

Via the Drop Pod Assault rule found in various codices correct? But don't regular units arriving off board without the benefit of a rule intrinsic to that specific unit arrive on turns 2+?

Yes, however it specifies in Drop Pod Assault that they are in reserves, and then provides a special rule that half turn up turn 1. Mordrak also turns up turn 1, despite being in reserves

Fling - care to explain where they are, if not in Reserves? If we can get you to admit you are wrong on that contention we may make some progress

Mightygodzilla yes i do agree the change in reserve was to reduce the null deployment. I believe however this was to stop the game not beginning u.til turn 2 as most armies that can bring in reserves turn 1 have a mechanism to go all reserve i.e. Drop pods and daemons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least we can all finally agree on the RaW now. But yes rai could go either way.

By "all" you mean "mainly you"?

The RAW is clear; the 50% rule applies, as nothing about DWA avoids it.

Yes the 50% rule applies and has nothing to do with how many units i can DWA with.

Nos you already conceded when you refused to answer my simple questions. So either answer the questions or stop trolling.

DevianID wrote:

Tyrant, dwa happens in deployment but before you deploy your army. Also units using dwa arrive by deep strike, but they are not put in reserve to deep strike. With dwa, you need never reference the different reserve special rule at all.

I never referenced any so called different reserve special rule at all. I referenced the Deep strike special rule which is how terminators arriving via DWA arrive. There is states units that must arrive via deep strike do not count when working out how many units can go in reserve. As the DA codex DWA entry fails to mention weather or not units arriving this way are placed in reserve, and as it not decided at the same time as normal reserves, I would take it as they must arrive via deep strike therefore do not count in the half rounding up quota.


On another note there are many calling how many units can be held in reserve the 50% rule when in fact its the half rounding up. No where does it ever use the term 50%. Sounds minor but half rounding up is actually a more accurate description us more times than not armies will be odd numbered. If people acctually quoted the rule book rather than put down how they remember it was written, half these threads would not be so long. My 2 cents anyway.

Tyr4nt99 when talking about the 50% rule and how it should be accurately stated you yourself state the common misconception on the rule. It is not a rule on how many units can be held in reserve or how many can be in reserve or how many can start in reserve. It is a rule about how many can be PUT into reserve WHEN DEPLOYING YOUR ARMY. That is all it governs.

Where in the Deathwing Assault rule does it say any of the units are placed in reserve?

All it says is that there is no need to roll for reserves, which can be interpreted 2 ways:

1 - They are not reserves and this statements clarifies this

2- They are "reserves" but you do not have to roll.

As written however, it suggests that they are not reserves because no where in the rule does it say anything like "units with this rule may be placed in reserves during deployment and declare they are making a deathwing assault, etc"

IF the rule was worded in such a way, yes I would agree the 50% rule applies. However, since the declaration of Deathwing Assault precedes any sort of deployment and "placing units in reserve" they clearly do not count toward the 50% rule and act exactly like Demons, except they get to choose turn 1 or 2 (albeit prior to your opponent deploying as well, keep that in mind as well)

Forcing you to deploy 50% of your terminators in a full DW army is against the way the rule was designed, IMO.

It would be like saying a Drop-Pod army had to deploy half the marines on the table with half the the pods dropping empty. Since the marines have the OPTION of deploying on the battlefield and dropping an empty pod, that line of logic lends itself to forcing half of the marines being forced to deploy and dropping empty pods.

It's all about when the declaration is made, which is prior to deployment. Therefore, all models in the army that have chosen to deploy/enter the battle via DWA MUST deep strike, in which case they do not apply to the 50% rule.

If you DWA with every model in the army, you no longer physically have any models to deploy because they can NOT deploy normally, just like Demons/Full Drop-Pod marines.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Tyr4nt99 when talking about the 50% rule and how it should be accurately stated you yourself state the common misconception on the rule. It is not a rule on how many units can be held in reserve or how many can be in reserve or how many can start in reserve. It is a rule about how many can be PUT into reserve WHEN DEPLOYING YOUR ARMY. That is all it governs.

Again you are continuing to perpetuate false infromation. It is not the 50% rule. It is a choice to not deploy HALF (ROUNDING UP) units keeping them as reserves. And where did I incorrectly state a misconception of this rule. I suggest next time you wish to point out a mistake made in a post you may wish to place a quote. But before that you may wish to read the post, then re read the post, then just to make sure reread the post again to ensure you fully understand what was written. If you are also going to correct someone make sure you dont add words yourself that are not within the rule itself. Happy to stand corrected on anything I have miswritten however I have direct quoted the rulebook to avoid making things up. This generally avoids confusion... generally.

Ztryder wrote:
Where in the Deathwing Assault rule does it say any of the units are placed in reserve?

When it tells you that they Deep Strike. All units Deep Striking are held in Reserve to do so.

Ztryder wrote:
Since the marines have the OPTION of deploying on the battlefield and dropping an empty pod, that line of logic lends itself to forcing half of the marines being forced to deploy and dropping empty pods.

You are exactly correct that this is how it would work. Except that both the main rulebook (Deep Strike rules) and the main rulebook FAQ come out and explicitly tell us to ALSO ignore any models inside a Drop Pod or Flyer transport. Thus there is a SPECIFIC and EXPLICIT exception for these units, unlike units making a DWA.

Ztryder wrote:
It's all about when the declaration is made, which is prior to deployment.

Incorrect. It's made DURING deployment, right after Warlord traits. If you look at page 121 of your rulebook, you'll see that Warlord traits are done at the beginning of Deployment, and so the decision to DWA, which is done right after Warlord traits, is also made during Deployment.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes the 50% rule applies and has nothing to do with how many units i can DWA with.

Nos you already conceded when you refused to answer my simple questions. So either answer the questions or stop trolling.

I didnt answer your trolling, as feeding you seemed silly. You decided that these models werent in reserve - or have you quietly dropped that?

The 50% rule is in force during Deployment of your Forces, which is also deploying your army. You continually ignore that.

Ok if they are not in reserves BUt arriving by deep striking then where are they in limbo?

They are put in reserves. At this point you have a choice to roll for them on turn 2 or beyond, or declare to DWA. and arrive turn1 or 2 via deep strike your choice.

There is absolutely no rule that allows you too place them in a limbo stasis too arrive when you like. There is none. Not in the BRB or the new codex thats been released.

Fling your wrong and quite frankly this does not need to be FAQ'd. Its simple you put in reserves and choose how they arrive.

You have 3 choices.

walk on
deep strike after turn one if you roll a 3
or deep strike on turn 1 or 2 via dwa.

Thats it Dark angels have no special rules to the contrary

Just answer where they go if not in reserves? Limbo?

LOCK THIS THREAD

On another note there are many calling how many units can be held in reserve...

That's the mistake Tyr4nt99 there is no rule governing how many units can be held in reserve. We call it 50% because it is quicker to type. However what causes confusion is statements like yours and people calling it a restriction on how many unit can be/start in reserve WHEN it is in fact simply an allowance to place units in reserve at a specific point before the game.

Nos I didn't say the units were not in reserve i said they were no being put in reserve using the reserves special rule. so the 50% rule a rules that allows me to put units in reserve is active throughout deployment? That means i can place units in reserve through out deployment. What you are trying to claim means i can put units in reserve WHEN rolling for warlord traits up until as my opponent finishes deploying his army i can then stick half my army in reserve?

Why won't you answer even that question? Why can't anyone answer the questions. Why can't anyone explain how DWA with your entire army breaks the 50% rule.

Ztryder wrote:


All it says is that there is no need to roll for reserves, which can be interpreted 2 ways:

1 - They are not reserves and this statements clarifies this

2- They are "reserves" but you do not have to roll.

I think this is the heart of the issue. RAW is very much open to interpretation. We need to wait for an FAQ. In the meantime we're just guessing what GW meant; and of course their eventual FAQ ruling isn't necessarily even going to be based on what they meant (if they even thought about what they meant...).

They are put in reserves. At this point you have a choice to roll for them on turn 2 or beyond, or declare to DWA. and arrive turn1 or 2 via deep strike your choice.

There is absolutely no rule that allows you too place them in a limbo stasis too arrive when you like

Lungpickle you made a lot of mistakes here. Even Nos will agree with this.

First, you dont get the choice of deploy, walk on, deep strike or DWA at the same time. DWA always comes first, and using DWA means you have no choice to later deploy, walk on or deep strike when it is normally time to decide those things.

Second, DWA DOES let you arrive when you like, determined in deployment but far before when you deploy your army or use the Reserves mission special rule on other units to choose not to deploy them.

Edit:

When it tells you that they Deep Strike. All units Deep Striking are held in Reserve to do so.

Mannahnin, they dont deep strike, they Death Wing Assault. Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive via Deepstrike. The first and only time Deep strike is mentioned is when a unit completes its DWA for model placement. They can ALSO make a Deep Strike, but follow different rules for doing so. If a model with DWA did not have the deep strike USR, they could still use DWA. According to you, they must also have deep strike to DWA, which is not what the DWA rules say.

Okay quick question, if the entire section on deployment is 'deploying your forces' and is therefor subject to the 50% rule, does that mean that the DA player will always receive first turn?

The player who first deploys his forces first, goes first. DWA is declared immediately after warlord traits before rolling to see who deploys first, and DA has deployed first by your interpretation of that section.

Cheers

Andrew

DevianID wrote:
Edit: Mannahnin, they dont deep strike, they Death Wing Assault. Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive via Deepstrike. The first and only time Deep strike is mentioned is when a unit completes its DWA for model placement. They can ALSO make a Deep Strike, but follow different rules for doing so. If a model with DWA did not have the deep strike USR, they could still use DWA. According to you, they must also have deep strike to DWA, which is not what the DWA rules say.

This is incorrect, as proven units making a DWA do in fact Deep Strike. "Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive via Deepstrike"

arrive via Deep strike = Deep strike.

DWA = Deep Strike without rolling for Reserves, instead just arriving on your designated turn.

DWA changes some VERY SPECIFIC rules for RESERVES. It still uses reserves, it still follows all the unchanged rules for reserves.

Yes once you CHOOSE to DWA they must go into reserves but you CHOSE to put them in to reserves when you CHOSE to DWA therefore it is a CHOICE and they CAN not MUST start on the table.

 jegsar wrote:
DWA changes some VERY SPECIFIC rules for RESERVES. It still uses reserves, it still follows all the unchanged rules for reserves.

Yes once you CHOOSE to DWA they must go into reserves but you CHOSE to put them in to reserves when you CHOSE to DWA therefore it is a CHOICE and they CAN not MUST start on the table.

I still disagree with that reasoning.

Choosing to play DWA is completely separate from any choice regarding Reserves. It's choosing to play a special rule which happens to influence Reserves and place some units there, but the choice itself is not related to Reserves. It is a choice on a special rule. Whether or not that then influences the 50% rule is where the true debate lies I personally think. After re-reading all the rules I am inclined now to think that the 50% does apply (otherwise any unit with DS never counts towards 50% and you could field any army comprised of DS models entirely off the table) however I don't agree that the rule is not ambiguous. It needs an FAQ.

Fling's interpretation is not correct at all.

Ztryder wrote:Forcing you to deploy 50% of your terminators in a full DW army is against the way the rule was designed, IMO.

It would be like saying a Drop-Pod army had to deploy half the marines on the table with half the the pods dropping empty. Since the marines have the OPTION of deploying on the battlefield and dropping an empty pod, that line of logic lends itself to forcing half of the marines being forced to deploy and dropping empty pods.

Drop Pod assault only allows you to bring in half on your first turn, and the rest get stuck in reserves to be rolled for as normal. The advantage of being able to place half your stuff where you want it first turn is tempered by the disadvantage of not knowing when you'll get to use the rest of your army. It's its own unique way of keeping the spirit of the 50% rule alive. Deathwing Assault, however, applies to every single unit that you declare to be using it. If you treat DWA as ignoring the 50% rule, you can deploy an ENTIRE army of Deathwing exactly where you want it. No footslogging, no waiting for reserves, no random chance, no need to maneuver to your opponent. Having half an army not have to worry about that is already very strong. Allowing your ENTIRE army to do that would be a completely broken mechanic, which is really all the evidence anyone should need to see that's not how it works.

FlingitNow wrote:I mean Nivek how can you say a rule in a permissive rules that gives you permission, at a specific time, to do something with a rule in an exclusive rules set that prevents you ever doing something is beyond me.

I've read this about 30 times now, and I still have no idea what it's supposed to say. It starts as a question and then ends as a declarative statement.

FlingitNow wrote:Can i put stuff in reserve at any point during deploy your forces as your interpretation makes me?

You are allowed to place units in reserve from the time you start placing models during deployment until you tell your opponent you are finished placing your forces. The only exceptions to this are explicitly stated in special rules.

Do both playesr have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Player turns are not simultaneous.

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

No.

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

No, because nobody has had a 'player turn' yet.

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

We deploy our armies at the same time because nobody has had a 'player turn' yet, nor has the player to get the first 'player turn' been determined yet. We simply place models on the board at different times.

Therefore when you are deploying your army am I deploying mine?

Yes. Nobody has had a 'player turn' yet, we're setting up the game.

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA?

Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Declaration of a DWA is done before rolling off to see who places models first because knowing who places first would greatly influence your decision on whether or not you want to use Deathwing Assault. If I knew I was going 2nd, I would DWA everything every game. It would cost my opponent the ability to do any damage to me for their first turn, and I get to choose to bring in everything I have exactly where I want it in relation to his forces to do the maximum amount of damage. That would be the kind of cheese that would make 5th ed Grey Knights blush. That is the kind of reality people wanting to ignore the 50% rule are arguing for, keep that in mind.

Nivek5150 wrote:
Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Declaration of a DWA is done before rolling off to see who places models first because knowing who places first would greatly influence your decision on whether or not you want to use Deathwing Assault. If I knew I was going 2nd, I would DWA everything every game. It would cost my opponent the ability to do any damage to me for their first turn, and I get to choose to bring in everything I have exactly where I want it in relation to his forces to do the maximum amount of damage. That would be the kind of cheese that would make 5th ed Grey Knights blush. That is the kind of reality people wanting to ignore the 50% rule are arguing for, keep that in mind.

But DWA can't be deployment, because if it was, by declaring DWA you have deployed first and as such would always have first turn.

Cheers

Andrew

DWA is done before the roll off, ok... that doesn't change any reserve rules other then the time which you CHOOSE what happens to them.

Oh and you might kinda place your armies at the same time but you DO NOT place your infiltrators at the same time otherwise where one is placed wouldn't effect where the other could be placed.

Meaning... no it's not at the same time one goes then the other goes back and forth.

 AndrewC wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
Yes, because it's part of the 'Deployment' section.

Declaration of a DWA is done before rolling off to see who places models first because knowing who places first would greatly influence your decision on whether or not you want to use Deathwing Assault. If I knew I was going 2nd, I would DWA everything every game. It would cost my opponent the ability to do any damage to me for their first turn, and I get to choose to bring in everything I have exactly where I want it in relation to his forces to do the maximum amount of damage. That would be the kind of cheese that would make 5th ed Grey Knights blush. That is the kind of reality people wanting to ignore the 50% rule are arguing for, keep that in mind.

But DWA can't be deployment, because if it was, by declaring DWA you have deployed first and as such would always have first turn.

The same logic would say that whoever picked up the dice to roll on the Warlord table has now gone first. In either case, it doesn't matter because after Warlord traits & DWA the rulebook tells you to roll the dice to see who places models first so you are forced to do so. Placing DWA between Warlord traits & rolling to see who places first does not create a conflict with the BRB.

jegsar wrote:DWA is done before the roll off, ok... that doesn't change any reserve rules other then the time which you CHOOSE what happens to them.

I agree with you. I wasn't commenting on the Reserves rule per se, I was saying that playing it the way the all-in crowd wants to would be game-breaking.

Oh and you might kinda place your armies at the same time but you DO NOT place your infiltrators at the same time otherwise where one is placed wouldn't effect where the other could be placed.

Correct. I (very purposefully) did not say you place models at the same time (you clearly do not), I said you are both "deploying armies" at the same time, because the game hasn't started and nobody has had a "player turn" yet.

 Mannahnin wrote:
DWA = Deep Strike without rolling for Reserves or putting them in reserve when deploying your army, instead just arriving on your designated turn.

fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nivek if you are both deploying your armies at the same time (even the rules tell you not to) that means the allowance to put 50% of my army in reserves applies through out the deployment phase correct?

Is that what you are saying that the 50% rule can be used at any point during deployment from warlord trait to the 2nd player finishing deploying his army?

As Andrew says, you guys are trying so hard to apply the reserves special rule to the dwa special rule that you have claimed dwa counts as deploying your army so as to force reserve limits to apply.

If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

Nivek5150 wrote:
The same logic would say that whoever picked up the dice to roll on the Warlord table has now gone first. In either case, it doesn't matter because after Warlord traits & DWA the rulebook tells you to roll the dice to see who places models first so you are forced to do so. Placing DWA between Warlord traits & rolling to see who places first does not create a conflict with the BRB.

No it doesnt, Warlard traits states 'before either player deploys', The next section specifically states to roll the dice to decide who deploys first. DWA comes somewhere inbetween. The rule for going first doesnt ask who picked up the dice, but who deployed their army first. And since, according to you, DWA is deploying an army....

Cheers

Andrew

DevianID wrote:
If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

That's not true.
When does DWA get declared?
What happens after that?

Unfortunately it is,

You are quite right, the 'turn' order is;

Warlord traits,
DWA,
Roll to deploy armies.

However the rule for who gets first turn doesn't ask for who won the roll off, simply the person who deployed his army first has first turn. And according to you DWA is deploying your army. Ergo regardless of who won the die roll, the DA player goes first.

Cheers

Andrew

DevianID wrote:
As Andrew says, you guys are trying so hard to apply the reserves special rule to the dwa special rule that you have claimed dwa counts as deploying your army so as to force reserve limits to apply.

If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

Actually their argument is even worse than that. They are trying to split the 50% rule into 2 rules one which lets you put units into reserve and another that caps it at half. But it is one rule. If that rule applies through deployment the i can deploy first let you deploy then yank half my army of the board to put into reserve...
Or indeed whilst rolling warlord traits i could stick half my units in reserve. Which just shows how wrong their interpretation is.

I've tried explaining this many times to them but they ignore it. They insist on this invented mythical rule that says only half your units can ever be in reserve.

 FlingitNow wrote:

DevianID wrote:
As Andrew says, you guys are trying so hard to apply the reserves special rule to the dwa special rule that you have claimed dwa counts as deploying your army so as to force reserve limits to apply.

If this is the case, you are also arguing that dwa grants the dwa player the first turn by virtue of deploying their army first, as Andrew pointed out. Now are you guys still claiming raw the 50% reserves apply to dwa when you also always get first turn as well by using dwa via the same raw logic?

Actually their argument is even worse than that. They are trying to split the 50% rule into 2 rules one which lets you put units into reserve and another that caps it at half. But it is one rule. If that rule applies through deployment the i can deploy first let you deploy then yank half my army of the board to put into reserve...
Or indeed whilst rolling warlord traits i could stick half my units in reserve. Which just shows how wrong their interpretation is.

I've tried explaining this many times to them but they ignore it. They insist on this invented mythical rule that says only half your units can ever be in reserve.

Okay, you're either very confused about what you've read in your Rulebook or you're straight up lying to yourself. I'm reasonably certain I'm not supposed to quote verbatim from the book or be mean to people on here (and I really don't like doing that, any mods reading, please take note) but man, you just keep insisting on something that's complete gak.

Page 124 - Heading: Reserves, 1st Paragraph 'Preparing Reserves'

'When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.'

Boom. A RULE that states up to half your units may be kept in reserve. I think what's mythical here is your reading comprehension.

Paint to redemption have you even read what you've posted? Your rule says this:

When deploying their armies - cool this is something that applies when we're deploying.g our armies:

Players can choose not to deploy up to half their units - cool this is is permission to do something instead of deploying and we can do that thing with unto half our units.

Keeping them as Reserves to arrive later - this explains what we do with those units instead of deploying them.

The rest of the rules just define exactly what is meant by half the units. Note NOTHING stating any restriction on how many units can be in reserve can start in reserve Or can be held in reserve. ONLY Half something that tells you how many units can be PUT in reserve at the specific time of when we are deploying them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint to redemption have you even read what you've posted? Your rule says this:

When deploying their armies - cool this is something that applies when we're deploying.g our armies:

Players can choose not to deploy up to half their units - cool this is is permission to do something instead of deploying and we can do that thing with unto half our units.

Keeping them as Reserves to arrive later - this explains what we do with those units instead of deploying them.

The rest of the rules just define exactly what is meant by half the units. Note NOTHING stating any restriction on how many units can be in reserve can start in reserve Or can be held in reserve. ONLY Half something that tells you how many units can be PUT in reserve at the specific time of when we are deploying them.

Okay, so you have permission to put half of your units into reserve. What's your point? You still only have permission to put 50% of your unit into reserve, no more than that.

If you want to argue RAW then you have to take it both ways. Yes, there's nothing explicitly stating exactly how many units can theoretically be in the 'reserve', but there's also nothing saying that you can have more than 50% of your units in reserve either so your argument trips up on your own logic. Unless you can find something specific that gives you permission to put more than 50% of your army into reserve then you have no argument. DWA does not do that. It only gives you permission to bring in your nominated units via DS on the turn you nominate, without a roll for reinforcements.

I agree that DWA is a bit ambiguous and needs to be FAQ'd but I don't agree (anymore) that it gives you permission to put your entire army into reserve. All it does is give you permission to Deep Strike on the turn of your choosing, without having to roll.

Example of why DWA does not let you put your entire army into reserve using the DS arguement:

Player A calls DWA after Warlord traits are rolled. Nominates his entire army who all must be kept in reserves now because DWA forces them to Deep Strike (and DS units must be kept in reserve).

Player B does not call on any codex rules, but simply nominates his entire army to Deep Strike also, because all of his units have the Deep Strike special rule (and DS units must be kept in reserve).

Now, both Player A and Player B have their entire armies off the table for the same reason (DS forces units into reserve, therefore they don't count towards 50%). This is obviously insane. Where are the units? Who's going to fight? Do you both lose at the end of turn 1? Any game played this way is an automatic draw by virtue of there being no units on the damn field!

However, in reality, you may only nominate 50% of your force to DS without using the DWA rule. Since there is nothing permissive in the DWA rule to allow you to nominate more than 50% of your units to DS (and negate the 50% rule in the process) then you can't do it. Impossible. Just the same as it is impossible to nominate more than 50% of your regular DS forces.

Try and DS your entire army without using DWA against any player and they'll laugh at you. DWA does not confer anything special other than the ability for the models that are Deep Striking to arrive on the nominated turn without a reserve roll. If you claim DWA gives nominated models exemption from the 50% rule you claim that any model with DS is ALSO exempt from the 50% rule by default. Since we know that is patently wrong, we know that DWA can therefore not make units exempt from the 50% rule.

/thread.

Read the entire rule Paint. The allowance governs and only governs how many units can be PUT into reserve when you are deploying your army. If you have another rule that lets you put units in reserve at another time then this rule has no bearing on that. If you are trying to make this rule apply through deployment then the rule applies through out deployment and i can stick units in reserve at anytime during deployment. Which means whichever player shouts Im putting a unit into reserve first after placement of objectives gets to go first. This is what those trying to apply the 50% rule to DWA are making happen.

Do you understand that rule yet? If that rule was the only way to

Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

/thread.

Edit: And no, nominating to use DWA does not mean you 'get to go first because you deployed first' because the Rulebook SPECIFICALLY states that you roll off to see who deploys their army first. Calling DWA has no bearing on the roll off. The following page then SPECIFICALLY states that the player who deployed their army first (via the roll off) goes first. Find a better argument.

Also in your example player B can not declare he is putting ANY units into reserve before he starts deploying his army because he has no permission to do so. If there was a rule allowing him to declare DS at the point you are saying then yes he could do that with all his units. DWA specifically gives you permission to declare it after warlord traits before either player start deploying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The DWA rule states you may declare any units with the DWA are making a DWA after warlord traits. So me a rule that means any is limited to 50%.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also in your example player B can not declare he is putting ANY units into reserve before he starts deploying his army because he has no permission to do so. If there was a rule allowing him to declare DS at the point you are saying then yes he could do that with all his units. DWA specifically gives you permission to declare it after warlord traits before either player start deploying.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The DWA rule states you may declare any units with the DWA are making a DWA after warlord traits. So me a rule that means any is limited to 50%.

It doesn't matter. You're saying DWA negates 50% because DS units MUST be in reserve.

If I declare all my units to be Deep Striking when I am deploying my army (at the time one would normally declare DS) then that is EXACTLY the same thing. They all MUST be in reserve because I have declared them to be Deep Striking. That is not how it works and DWA does not give any permissions to break that. All it does do, is give you permission to bring in the units that you nominate to DS on the turn you want without rolls. That is all. You may still only nominate units according to the deployment rules which state that only units the must be placed into reserve (or must arrive by DS) do not count. Since none of the units we're talking about must arrive by DS (or must be placed into reserve) because you don't have to nominate them or play DWA, you must obey the deployment rules.

Edit: Also, please explain how the timing of when you declare DWA influences whether or not you can nominate more than half your units to be placed into reserves. Nothing in the rules says anything about that.

It states nothing about who won the roll off. Please actually read my posts and the rules. If you can apply the 50% rule through out deployment then you can start deploying your army at anytime during deployment as that is what the 50% rule says.

So either i can reserve my units through out deployment or only when I'm deploying my army. The 50% rule only applies when the 50% rule is applied. So which is it? Through out deployment or only when deploying your army?

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

Just an FYI:
I would just like to point out that the Reserves rules allow for more than 50% of an Army to be in reserve.
"up to half of their units (rounding up)"
Example: Army with 5 units (5/2 is 2.5 rounding up = 3 in reserve) that's 60%. Assume for a moment that 2 units are Flyers, now that 66% in reserve.

The "50% Rule" is a myth, it doesn't exist and never has.
There is only the Reserves rule and it certainly allows for more than 50% of an Army to start the game in reserves. Add in those units that can be "ignored" and the percentage be well above 50%.

carry on...

So will you answer the question of when the 50% rule applies?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
DWA = Deep Strike without rolling for Reserves or putting them in reserve when deploying your army, instead just arriving on your designated turn.

fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nivek if you are both deploying your armies at the same time (even the rules tell you not to) that means the allowance to put 50% of my army in reserves applies through out the deployment phase correct?

Is that what you are saying that the 50% rule can be used at any point during deployment from warlord trait to the 2nd player finishing deploying his army?

So if they are not on the table, and they are not in Reserves, then they cannot come into the game as you do not have permission to bring them in from some magical place called DWA.

Actually reaper i do the DWA rule explains when and how you bring units on that are in DWA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone from the 50% crowd willing to answer when the 50% rule applies and therefore when i can put units into reserve?

40k-noob wrote:

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

Just an FYI:
I would just like to point out that the Reserves rules allow for more than 50% of an Army to be in reserve.
"up to half of their units (rounding up)"
Example: Army with 5 units (5/2 is 2.5 rounding up = 3 in reserve) that's 60%. Assume for a moment that 2 units are Flyers, now that 66% in reserve.

The "50% Rule" is a myth, it doesn't exist and never has.
There is only the Reserves rule and it certainly allows for more than 50% of an Army to start the game in reserves. Add in those units that can be "ignored" and the percentage be well above 50%.

carry on...

50% is an easy way of saying half which is what it says in the rulebook. Flyers are always reserved. Arguing semantics doesn't help your actual argument.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So will you answer the question of when the 50% rule applies?

The 50% rule always applies unless you have a specific rule which overrides it. 'Timing' does not come into it, as much as you'd like it to.

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Show me where DWA allows you to put more than 50% of your units into reserve.

Otherwise...

Just an FYI:
I would just like to point out that the Reserves rules allow for more than 50% of an Army to be in reserve.
"up to half of their units (rounding up)"
Example: Army with 5 units (5/2 is 2.5 rounding up = 3 in reserve) that's 60%. Assume for a moment that 2 units are Flyers, now that 66% in reserve.

The "50% Rule" is a myth, it doesn't exist and never has.
There is only the Reserves rule and it certainly allows for more than 50% of an Army to start the game in reserves. Add in those units that can be "ignored" and the percentage be well above 50%.

carry on...

50% is an easy way of saying half which is what it says in the rulebook. Flyers are always reserved. Arguing semantics doesn't help your actual argument.

You are arguing a position that doesn't exist and thus indefensible.
I was trying to help you adjust your position so you don't fall into that trap.

trying to make it "easy" by using the "50% rule" is putting your position on a weak foundation.

But oh well so much for trying to help

Question for the pro-timing people.

If both players show up with warlords that have set traits (no roll), then DWA can never occur since the trigger is the roll for warlord traits?

The same goes for flyers which cannot evade/jink attacks which do not roll to hit (vector strikes) since the trigger for evading is the roll to hit.

Seems to me this whole debate is RAI. RAW, every unit that is exempt from the 50% reserve rule has specific verbage. DWA has no mention of units not counting towards the reserved alottment. So arguing the timing of a choice (since they do have a choice) is arguing the intent of that choice to infuence the rest of the game. I see the timing (like dozens of others have pointed out) that the timing of the choice is to avoid waiting to see what/how your opponent deploys before declaring the DWA, since the benefit at that point in time would be off-balancing the game.

40k-noob wrote:



You are arguing a position that doesn't exist and thus indefensible.
I was trying to help you adjust your position so you don't fall into that trap.

trying to make it "easy" by using the "50% rule" is putting your position on a weak foundation.

But oh well so much for trying to help

The position exists if you read your rule book. It's clearly stated that you may put half of your force (rounded up) into reserve. Half is 50%. What you are doing is arguing semantics by saying, "Oh but if you round it up or have flyers it's not really 50%". So what??

Fine we can call it the 1/2 rule from now on. Or the 2/4ths rule or the 5/10ths rule... We can call it whatever you like but the rule still states that you can put half of your force in reserve and half is the exact same thing as 50%. It makes no difference anyway because the argument that DWA affected DS units ignore that rule is bunk. If DWA affected units ignore it then all units with the DS rule ignore it.

Edit: Anyway it's 2:30am here and I have spent way too long on Dakka today! I'm off to bed but I'm sure I'll be back to argue with you all some more tomorrow.

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
It makes no difference anyway because the argument that DWA affected DS units ignore that rule is bunk. If DWA affected units ignore it then all units with the DS rule ignore it.

This whole thread, all 14 pages of it, really boils down to that.

There are two sides.

1 - DWA units MUST DS (because of timing, i.e. happens before "deploying your army") and are "ignored" as the Reserves rules say (Pro side)
2 - DWA units are still to be considered when determining reserves as the Reserves rules are always in play (applied through out "Deployment"). (Con side)

Are DWA units to be ignored or not.

So far neither side can convince the other.

Can we close this thread now? It has been intersting reading through the progression of view points but nothing/noone seems to budge.

Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
Edit: And no, nominating to use DWA does not mean you 'get to go first because you deployed first' because the Rulebook SPECIFICALLY states that you roll off to see who deploys their army first. Calling DWA has no bearing on the roll off. The following page then SPECIFICALLY states that the player who deployed their army first (via the roll off) goes first. Find a better argument.

Sorry but thats wrong, the rule book allows you to roll of to allow the winning player to decide whether he deploys first or second. However the DA player has already deployed part of his forces via DWA. First turn (P122) says nothing about how a person deployed first, only that they player who deployed his forces first has first turn.

DWA does not mention deployment, it's a 'go to jail, if you pass go you do not collect $200'. DS is a deploy forces to reserve and then declare DS. Reserves is a deploy forces step.

So we're left with the question of what is DWA? Is it deployment, in which case the 50% limitation is in force, but then he gets to go first, or it's not a deployment, in which case it is very questionable for the 50% limitation to be in effect.

Which is it?

Andrew there is no 50% limitation it is an allowance that has nothig to do with units that are put in reserve at other times.

Unsurpringly the 50% restriction crowd are still unable to state when you are allowed to use that rule to put units into reserve.

But thats the point I'm trying to make Fling. I'm taking their argument at face value and pursuing it throught the entire 'section' Reserves is a general rule specific to 'deployment'. The argument is that DWA is deployment and thence subject to 50% reserves. However such an argument then has to take account of the fact, that as 'deployment' DWA is thereby guaranteed first turn. If they cannot accept that fact then the argument presented is simply 'I dont think it works that way and I'm making up reasons to suit'

If they/you want to make an argument about RAW then accept all the RAW.

If DWA isn't deployment then trying to allocate a deployment rule to a specific codex rule is like trying to allocate CCW rules to a shooting attack.

Cheers

Andrew

DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

 DeathReaper wrote:
DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

....aaaand water is wet.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Normally, when deploying the rest of your forces.
DWA allows you to do that prior to anyone deploying forces.

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Normally, when deploying the rest of your forces.
DWA allows you to do that prior to anyone deploying forces.

so the 50% rule can't be used other than when you are deploying the rest of your force? Because the rule allowing you to put units in reserve is the 50% rule.

Therefore it can not apply to DWA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

No one is trying to. Again i ask you when can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Normally, when deploying the rest of your forces.
DWA allows you to do that prior to anyone deploying forces.

so the 50% rule can't be used other than when you are deploying the rest of your force?

Normally thats true.

Because the rule allowing you to put units in reserve is the 50% rule.

Therefore it can not apply to DWA.

Normally you may not declare Reserves prior to when you deploy forces. DWA requires you to declare Reserves prior to deploying forces. This is a conflict, codex wins - allowing you to declare Reserves before deploying forces.

There is no conflict when it comes to the "no more than half rounding up" units in reserve though.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
DWA occurs in the deployment section of the rules.

There is no way to circumvent this fact.

No one is trying to. Again i ask you when can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

What rigeld2 said covers this:


"Normally you may not declare Reserves prior to when you deploy forces. DWA requires you to declare Reserves prior to deploying forces. This is a conflict, codex wins - allowing you to declare Reserves before deploying forces.

There is no conflict when it comes to the "no more than half rounding up" units in reserve though."

You say as if the 50% rule is 2 rules one letting you put units in reserve the other limiting it to 50% during deployment. This is not the case. The 50% rule is the rule that dictates how you put units into reserve when deploying yourarmy.

So either
a) i am not deploying my army when i choose to DWA and therefore the 50% rule has no effect
or
b)i am and therefore i can put units into reserve at this point normally.

Which is it? You can't simply apply a few words from the rule at that point either the entire rule is in effect or it isn't. Immediately after warlord traits is the 50% rule active? Because you've just said it isn't...

And using DWA is done during deployment, so you must adhere to the 50% rule.

Normally it's not.
DWA allows you to override the conflicting rule - that Reserves is done while deploying forces.

If you're attempting to ignore the Reserves rule (which is what you do by not applying the half round up) you can't Deep Strike...

Rigeld I'm not ignoring the reserves rule. I'm ignoring the allowance to put units in reserve whilst deploying my army because i have an allowance to do it at another time. Unless you feel these 2 rules occur at the same time?

So which of the two option.s above is true?

Return to find yet another logical fallacy from Fling

False dichotomy. Try to avoid it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Normally it's not.
DWA allows you to override the conflicting rule - that Reserves is done while deploying forces.

If you're attempting to ignore the Reserves rule (which is what you do by not applying the half round up) you can't Deep Strike...

Whoa - Ho - Ho!! Lets back on up a little bit....

So now DWA overrides the Reserves rule?!?!

No, just part of the reserves rule. Just like Rigeld said

Try rereading it to see just where you went wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, just part of the reserves rule. Just like Rigeld said

Try rereading it to see just where you went wrong.

Riiight.


But which part is being over ruled?

You see, DWA is one rule and Reserves is composed of two rules: Preparing Reserves and Arriving from Reserves.

Which part does DWA override?

Edit: oops forgot about Ongoing Reserves, so actually it is 3 rules.

What have I said that is incorrect Nos?

The 50% simply allows me to put half my army in reserve that is all it does. So if it is active when i am declaring DWA it is active immediately after warlord traits and therefore I can put units in reserve at this time.

False Dichotomy. You have decided that there are only two choices.

Just another of your fallacies.

40k noob - so there arent more than 3 rules there? Have you looked hard enough, because its been pointed out to you?

So what option is missing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im simply asking if a rule applies at a given time. I don't see an option other than yes or no?

So Nos, what about the first turn problem? I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
So Nos, what about the first turn problem? I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

Cheers

Andrew

It's not a problem. You've been answered already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Normally it's not.
DWA allows you to override the conflicting rule - that Reserves is done while deploying forces.

If you're attempting to ignore the Reserves rule (which is what you do by not applying the half round up) you can't Deep Strike...

Whoa - Ho - Ho!! Lets back on up a little bit....

So now DWA overrides the Reserves rule?!?!

It overrides the timing for DWA units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Rigeld I'm not ignoring the reserves rule. I'm ignoring the allowance to put units in reserve whilst deploying my army because i have an allowance to do it at another time. Unless you feel these 2 rules occur at the same time?

So which of the two option.s above is true?

What?

Normally you are unable to nominate units for Reserves until you Deploy Forces. Agreed?
DWA requires you to nominate units for Reserves before Deploy Forces. Agreed?

There's the conflict - and that's the only conflict. And once you can only "ignore"/"replace" the conflicting rule...

Normally you can nominate upto half your units to go into reserve when deploying your army.Agreed.
DWA says you many nominate units after warlord traits.agreed?

No conflict no 50% restriction on DWA because nothing tels you there is one.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Normally you can nominate upto half your units to go into reserve when deploying your army.Agreed.
DWA says you many nominate units after warlord traits.agreed?

No conflict no 50% restriction on DWA because nothing tels you there is one.

So why are you ignoring the "up to half" when the only conflict is timing?

So can i put more than half my units in reserve using ongoing reserves as the only conflict is timing?

The restriction applies only at that time because it says it applies at that time. If you agree that DWA occurs at a different time why would that restriction apply.

If a fast vehicle moves upto 12" it can fire two guns. If it moves less than that the restriction to two guns does not apply. Agreed?

DWA tells you that designating those units must be done right after Warlord traits. That instruction is in contravention to the normal time to declare Reserves, so the DWA rule overrides the normal timing to declare those units are going in Reserve.

DWA also specifically and explicitly overrides the rule of rolling Reserves, for those units designated as making a DWA. And so for that purpose, it again overrides the normal Reserve rolls.

DWA does not give any other specific instructions which conflict with the Reserve rules, so the other portions of them (including the limit on how many units can be Reserved) remain in effect.

---------------------------

Now, getting away from the strict RAW discussion for a minute, I'd like to (in a break with normal strict YMDC custom) ask folks for a reasonableness evaluation.

I don’t believe this rule is really ambiguous, but granting for a moment, to the “whole army can DWA” crowd the idea that the rules might possibly mean that, you have to agree that it’s at BEST ambiguous, no? Absent an explicit instruction/permission to disregard the limit on reserves (half of your units, rounded up; often inaccurately shorthanded as “the 50% rule”), you’re relying on inference to give you this permission, and we’re in a situation where we can’t say with 100% certainty that this is indeed how it’s supposed to work.

Now, in this hypothetical situation (or gedankenexperiment, if I want to be extra-nerdy/international), let’s compare DWA to every other means of Reserving an entire army.

Flyers: You can, in practice, put an entire army in Flyers and Reserve it all. This of course causes you to auto-lose at the end of game turn one (barring corner cases like Phased Reinforcements), so instead let’s say you deploy a one unit, completely hidden somewhere in terrain, to avoid the auto-lose outcome. You now have (basically) a whole army in Reserve, and can deny your opponent his turn 1 (possibly also turn 2) shooting, but you have to rely on Reserve rolls to get the rest of your stuff on the table. So you always wind up with a small part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Drop Pods: Drop Pods allow you to potentially Reserve a whole army. But they also specify that only half, rounded up (gee, that sounds familiar) of them actually arrive on turn 1. The rest roll regular Reserves, and thus you always wind up with only part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Flyers & Drop pods mix: Same as above.

Daemonic Assault: Chaos Daemons always Reserve their whole army, but once again specify that only half, rounded up (is there an echo in here?) of their units actually arrive on turn 1. The rest roll regular Reserves, and thus you always wind up with only part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Old-codex Dark Angels Deathwing Assault: In the prior codex, you were allowed to nominate up to half, rounded up (starting to get a bit repetitive, ‘eh?) of your Deathwing units to arrive automatically on turn 1. So if you went full-Reserve with a DW army, you always wound up with only part of your force on the table early, waiting on Reserve rolls to get the rest of it later.

Now, given that every single way that currently exists in the game to Reserve a whole army, has the SAME counterbalance… That you only get part of it on the table early, and are always at the mercy of Reserve rolls for the rest, what do you think is the likelihood that GW really means for new-style DWA to be totally different? To NOT have the same counterbalance as every other method of full Reserve? More than that, to ALSO be superior by potentially allowing you to deny your opponent TWO entire turns of shooting at you? Does that seem likely to you? Without any sort of explicit statement confirming it?

I’ll also point out that every single one of those ways to Reserve a whole army has an EXPLICIT rule saying that the units you’re using to make it happen don’t count toward the half-of-your-unit-rounded-up maximum number of units allowed to be placed in Reserve. Drop Pods have it in the Deep Strike rules. Flyers have it in the main rulebook FAQ. Even DAEMONS, for whom it should be totally implicit and obvious, have an erreta making extra clear and explicit that YEP, they REALLY mean it, Daemons can and must Reserve their whole army. So their units don’t count toward the normal half-of-your-unit-rounded-up maximum.

Bearing that, too, in mind; leaving aside the issue of the wording and whether it really says what you believe it says, do you think that it seems sufficiently clear and conclusive to outweigh the above factors?

Does it seem likely to you, in context of how every other full-Reserve army now works, and how GW has explicitly stated which units do not count toward the limit, that DWA entitles the DA player to override the normal half-of-your-unit-rounded-up maximum?

Speaking as a Dark Angel player (one with a bunch of terminators already painted, and two new squads from Dark Vengeance ready to go), I certainly don’t think so.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So can i put more than half my units in reserve using ongoing reserves as the only conflict is timing?

Since Ongoing Reserves is factually different from Reserves, no you cannot. You have permission to put units in Reserves, not Ongoing Reserves.

The restriction applies only at that time because it says it applies at that time. If you agree that DWA occurs at a different time why would that restriction apply.

No, the restriction applies to the Reserves rule which has two requirements. DWA replaces one but not both.

If a fast vehicle moves upto 12" it can fire two guns. If it moves less than that the restriction to two guns does not apply. Agreed?

Since there are actual rules covering this I'm not sure what you're getting at - so ill just say "Whatever the Vehicle rules say."

The restriction does not apply to all reserve because it doesn't tell you that it does. It only tells you that the restriction applies to units you put in reserve when deploying your army. The timing and restriction are dependant on each other you can't break one without breaking the other unless specifically told to.

As for the RaI debate i agree it could go either way. But GW allowing a new codex to do things no other codex can is basically the entire point of a new codex isn't it?

Sure. But when they give an unprecedented new ability, they normally come out and say the unit can do the cool new thing. You don't have to deduce it by inference based on a reference chart in the back of the rulebook.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The restriction does not apply to all reserve because it doesn't tell you that it does. It only tells you that the restriction applies to units you put in reserve when deploying your army. The timing and restriction are dependant on each other you can't break one without breaking the other unless specifically told to.

That's not true at all. "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half ... ". DWA replaces the bold making it "When declaring DWA, players can choose not to deploy up to half ...".

What rule conflict are you using to ignore the second half of the sentence?

There is no conflict. The DWA rule does not use the 50% rule to put units in reserve. You have a rule that permits you to do something at a specific time you have another rule that allows you to do something similar at a different time. The two rules therefore never interact or create ANY conflict. Where are you getting permission tp use that rule at the DWA step?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Paint answer the question. When can i put units into reserve using the 50% rule?

Already answered. Read all my responses again.

 AndrewC wrote:

So we're left with the question of what is DWA? Is it deployment, in which case the 50% limitation is in force, but then he gets to go first, or it's not a deployment, in which case it is very questionable for the 50% limitation to be in effect.

Which is it?

I would say that either way, the 50% limit still applies because no where in the DWA ruling does it state otherwise. Permissive rule set doesn't give you permission to break a rule but you want to do it anyway. It's pretty hard to argue that DWA is not putting your units into reserves and so tell me how you justify getting around the Reserves section of the rulebook?

You want to say that it's not 'specifically' when you're deploying your army? Fine. That is the question that needs to be FAQ'd which is what I've said from the start. I don't think the question of who goes first comes into it. RAI is clear that the person who wins the roll off gets to choose deployment, so perhaps the roll off should be completed before DWA is announced if we want to get really pedantic about it.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Question for the pro-timing people.

If both players show up with warlords that have set traits (no roll), then DWA can never occur since the trigger is the roll for warlord traits?

The same goes for flyers which cannot evade/jink attacks which do not roll to hit (vector strikes) since the trigger for evading is the roll to hit.

I note that no one has bothered to tackle this very good question in regards to timing.

If both players have set warlord traits can you use DWA?

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is no conflict. The DWA rule does not use the 50% rule to put units in reserve. You have a rule that permits you to do something at a specific time you have another rule that allows you to do something similar at a different time. The two rules therefore never interact or create ANY conflict. Where are you getting permission tp use that rule at the DWA step?

So you're ignoring all the evidence I've presented?

No I've not seen any evidence that says you can use that rule at any point other than when deploying your army. Please show permission to do that.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No I've not seen any evidence that says you can use that rule at any point other than when deploying your army. Please show permission to do that.

I have, you've ignored it.

DWA conflicts with one rule. You're attempting to replace more than one rule.

Im not attempting to replace more than one rule. Again you talk as if the 50% restriction and the ability to put units in Reserve when deploying your are two separate rules. They are not.

Where is your permission to use ANY part of that rule when declaring a DWA? Where?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Im not attempting to replace more than one rule. Again you talk as if the 50% restriction and the ability to put units in Reserve when deploying your are two separate rules. They are not.

How are they not?

Where is your permission to use ANY part of that rule when declaring a DWA? Where?

You must refer to the Reserves rules when declaring DWA, agreed?

How are they 2 different rules? It is o.e rule that tells you that you can put half your army in reserve when deploying your army. It says nothing else.

Sorry but where does it give you permission to refer to the reserve rules when declaring DWA?

 FlingitNow wrote:
How are they 2 different rules? It is o.e rule that tells you that you can put half your army in reserve when deploying your army. It says nothing else.

Clause 1, clause 2. DWA replaces clause 1.

Sorry but where does it give you permission to refer to the reserve rules when declaring DWA?

So now you're back to DWA doesn't put units in Reserves?

 FlingitNow wrote:
How are they 2 different rules? It is o.e rule that tells you that you can put half your army in reserve when deploying your army. It says nothing else.

Sorry but where does it give you permission to refer to the reserve rules when declaring DWA?

So now youre back to claiming you DONT use Reserves when declaring DWA? BEcause THAT argument was still born in the first thread.

Why are you replacing 2 rules when you only have permission to replace one rule? Answer that.

It is not using the reserves rule to put the units in reserve when making the DWA. As previously stated it simply does not interact with the 50% rule.

Whether they then go into reserve later is irrelevant. You are told any units with DWA may declare it after warlord traits. What you can or can't do when deploying your army is irrelevant.

Yes, it is. You are claiming something that is factually untrue.

DS requires you to be in Reserves. It even reminds you they are in Reserves. So it IS using that rule, just modifying those parts it explicitly modifies - the roll and when you declare it. Not the "50%" rule.

You may consider it irrelevant, but RAW You are 100% wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
So Nos, what about the first turn problem? I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

Cheers

Andrew

It's not a problem. You've been answered already.

Eh I seem to have missed that, where exactly is the answer? All I can find is a response that the person who won the roll off gets to deploy first, which patently isn't the rule on P122.

For someone who is so interested in the exact reading of the rules, there are a lot of people being evasive here. We've had 13/14 pages of people arguing, blue in the face, that DWA is deploying your forces. Well accept the logical extension of that, DWA is deploying your forces therefor as being the first to deploy you get first turn.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Question for the pro-timing people.

If both players show up with warlords that have set traits (no roll), then DWA can never occur since the trigger is the roll for warlord traits?

The same goes for flyers which cannot evade/jink attacks which do not roll to hit (vector strikes) since the trigger for evading is the roll to hit.

I note that no one has bothered to tackle this very good question in regards to timing.

If both players have set warlord traits can you use DWA?

Yes, because DWA is triggered after determining Warlord traits, not a roll.

Strict reading of the rules contained within the BRB, yeah evade can't be used against something that doesn't roll to hit.

Cheers

Andrew

Here is my two cents. I am a Deathwing player. I believe DWA allows for a null deployment because the rule states that units with terminator armor and the inner circle rule may make a DWA. It says unitS not unit. Thats pretty clear to me. If all my units are in terminator armor and have the inner circle rule than all of them can DWA. The rule never says to place the units in reserve. I think my group isnt going to side with me however. Just have to wait for a FAQ. Everyone of the non-belial units still roll for scatter. I dont see DWA being that powerful.

 AndrewC wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
So Nos, what about the first turn problem? I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

Cheers

Andrew

It's not a problem. You've been answered already.

Eh I seem to have missed that, where exactly is the answer? All I can find is a response that the person who won the roll off gets to deploy first, which patently isn't the rule on P122.

For someone who is so interested in the exact reading of the rules, there are a lot of people being evasive here. We've had 13/14 pages of people arguing, blue in the face, that DWA is deploying your forces. Well accept the logical extension of that, DWA is deploying your forces therefor as being the first to deploy you get first turn.

Cheers

Andrew

I'm too lazy to find it so ill go ahead and answer.
DWA allows you to do something out of order. That does not mean that you skip everything between DWA and when it normally happens.
According to you a Death or Glory attempt by your opponent would immediately advance the game to your opponents shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
It is not using the reserves rule to put the units in reserve when making the DWA. As previously stated it simply does not interact with the 50% rule.

Pray tell, how are you entering reserves then? We know you must for the ability to work.

Whether they then go into reserve later is irrelevant. You are told any units with DWA may declare it after warlord traits. What you can or can't do when deploying your army is irrelevant.

It's not actually. As that's not what I'm arguing anyway. Please don't try to bring up a strawman.

So in other words, you cant, or dont want to, answer the question?

 AndrewC wrote:
So in other words, you cant answer the question?

I did answer the question. Perhaps if you'd read my post and quote what you disagree with?

morearti wrote:
Here is my two cents. I am a Deathwing player. I believe DWA allows for a null deployment because the rule states that units with terminator armor and the inner circle rule may make a DWA. It says unitS not unit. Thats pretty clear to me. If all my units are in terminator armor and have the inner circle rule than all of them can DWA. The rule never says to place the units in reserve. I think my group isnt going to side with me however. Just have to wait for a FAQ. Everyone of the non-belial units still roll for scatter. I dont see DWA being that powerful.

You could have four units, DWA two of them and still have "units" making a DWA just not "all units".

Honestly as someone with an all deathwing army I will be interpreting this as subject to the 50% rule untill FAQ'ed or someone comes up with something better than the timing issue. The infringing my right to chose for all units to make a DWA argument rings hollow to me.

morearti wrote:
Here is my two cents. I am a Deathwing player. I believe DWA allows for a null deployment because the rule states that units with terminator armor and the inner circle rule may make a DWA. It says unitS not unit. Thats pretty clear to me. If all my units are in terminator armor and have the inner circle rule than all of them can DWA. The rule never says to place the units in reserve. I think my group isnt going to side with me however. Just have to wait for a FAQ. Everyone of the non-belial units still roll for scatter. I dont see DWA being that powerful.

The rule for DS requires them being put in Reserve, so you are 100% factually incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
So in other words, you cant answer the question?

I did answer the question. Perhaps if you'd read my post and quote what you disagree with?

I asked a question about the fact that DWA is 'deploying of forces' ergo gets first turn, you wrote something about DoG and out of turn actions, which had nothing to do with the original question.

Cheers

Andrew

 dragqueeninspace wrote:

morearti wrote:
Here is my two cents. I am a Deathwing player. I believe DWA allows for a null deployment because the rule states that units with terminator armor and the inner circle rule may make a DWA. It says unitS not unit. Thats pretty clear to me. If all my units are in terminator armor and have the inner circle rule than all of them can DWA. The rule never says to place the units in reserve. I think my group isnt going to side with me however. Just have to wait for a FAQ. Everyone of the non-belial units still roll for scatter. I dont see DWA being that powerful.

You could have four units, DWA two of them and still have "units" making a DWA just not "all units".

Honestly as someone with an all deathwing army I will be interpreting this as subject to the 50% rule untill FAQ'ed or someone comes up with something better than the timing issue. The infringing my right to chose for all units to make a DWA argument rings hollow to me.

You could do that, and the DWA rule says you CAN DWA all four as well.
If the Reserves rule says that you cannot but the DWA rule says that you can then who wins?

I would refer you to page 7 for the answer.

 AndrewC wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
So in other words, you cant answer the question?

I did answer the question. Perhaps if you'd read my post and quote what you disagree with?

I asked a question about the fact that DWA is 'deploying of forces' ergo gets first turn, you wrote something about DoG and out of turn actions, which had nothing to do with the original question.

It absolutely does. DWA is not deploying your forces - it's permission to make a deployment decision out of sequence. DoG is not a normal shooting attack - it's permission to make a shooting attack out of sequence.

So I've answered you twice now. Want a third?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

 dragqueeninspace wrote:

morearti wrote:
Here is my two cents. I am a Deathwing player. I believe DWA allows for a null deployment because the rule states that units with terminator armor and the inner circle rule may make a DWA. It says unitS not unit. Thats pretty clear to me. If all my units are in terminator armor and have the inner circle rule than all of them can DWA. The rule never says to place the units in reserve. I think my group isnt going to side with me however. Just have to wait for a FAQ. Everyone of the non-belial units still roll for scatter. I dont see DWA being that powerful.

You could have four units, DWA two of them and still have "units" making a DWA just not "all units".

Honestly as someone with an all deathwing army I will be interpreting this as subject to the 50% rule untill FAQ'ed or someone comes up with something better than the timing issue. The infringing my right to chose for all units to make a DWA argument rings hollow to me.

You could do that, and the DWA rule says you CAN DWA all four as well.
If the Reserves rule says that you cannot but the DWA rule says that you can then who wins?

I would refer you to page 7 for the answer.

But that's not what the DWA rule says. I know you know that.

rigeld2 wrote:
It absolutely does. DWA is not deploying your forces - it's permission to make a deployment decision out of sequence. DoG is not a normal shooting attack - it's permission to make a shooting attack out of sequence.

So I've answered you twice now. Want a third?

DWA is certainly deploying your forces, your own earlier posts have repeatedly pointed that out.

It doesn't matter whether something is taken out of turn, that fact is that it has been taken. DWA is a deployment decision taken out of sequence, that can't get over the fact that it is still a deployment decision, and is deploying your forces.

P122 doesnt care about anything other that who deployed their forces first, and the inescapable fact is that the DA player did, he made a deployment decision and as such deployed first.

Lets use your example, in DoG, does the model/unit making it count as having shot?

Cheers

Andrew

40k noob - You could do that, and the DWA rule says you CAN DWA all four as well.
If the Reserves rule says that you cannot but the DWA rule says that you can then who wins?

Good job the DWA rule does not say ALL, otherwise you would be right. You're still wrong on this, as has been proven over and over and over and over by now.

rigeld2 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

 dragqueeninspace wrote:

morearti wrote:
Here is my two cents. I am a Deathwing player. I believe DWA allows for a null deployment because the rule states that units with terminator armor and the inner circle rule may make a DWA. It says unitS not unit. Thats pretty clear to me. If all my units are in terminator armor and have the inner circle rule than all of them can DWA. The rule never says to place the units in reserve. I think my group isnt going to side with me however. Just have to wait for a FAQ. Everyone of the non-belial units still roll for scatter. I dont see DWA being that powerful.

You could have four units, DWA two of them and still have "units" making a DWA just not "all units".

Honestly as someone with an all deathwing army I will be interpreting this as subject to the 50% rule untill FAQ'ed or someone comes up with something better than the timing issue. The infringing my right to chose for all units to make a DWA argument rings hollow to me.

You could do that, and the DWA rule says you CAN DWA all four as well.
If the Reserves rule says that you cannot but the DWA rule says that you can then who wins?

I would refer you to page 7 for the answer.

But that's not what the DWA rule says. I know you know that.

Actually it does.

DA Codex page 44 Deathwing Assault wrote:
Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault.
Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn.
All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves.

I have enlarged the key word in the DWA rule, "can" as in you are allowed to declare any unit that meets the requirements of Termie Armour and having DWA special rule for the whole unit.

If you have 4 units all in Termie Armour and all with the DWA rule, the DWA rule says that you can declare all of them as making a DWA.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k noob - You could do that, and the DWA rule says you CAN DWA all four as well.
If the Reserves rule says that you cannot but the DWA rule says that you can then who wins?

Good job the DWA rule does not say ALL, otherwise you would be right. You're still wrong on this, as has been proven over and over and over and over by now.

Read the rule again.

Does the rule give any kind of qualifier as to the number of units that can or cannot declare DWA?

No. It does not say "ALL" like you claimed. It states Units *can*

Another rule says that, once you get past 50%, you *cannot*

Given DWA does not contradict the 50% rule, it does not conflict, making your page 7 citation irrelevant.

Try reading the actual rules, and note where the ACTUAL conflicts are, not those you generate by changing wording to suit your argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No. It does not say "ALL" like you claimed. It states Units *can*

Another rule says that, once you get past 50%, you *cannot*

Given DWA does not contradict the 50% rule, it does not conflict, making your page 7 citation irrelevant.

Try reading the actual rules, and note where the ACTUAL conflicts are, not those you generate by changing wording to suit your argument.

Did you really just post that?

You just highlighted the conflict.

Reserves says you can't after you have reached 2 of 4 units, however the DWA rule continues to say you CAN.

The DWA rule has no limit except " entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour..."

Yes, I posted it. You clearly just dont understand what a conflict actually is in 40k terms.

DWA does not even mention the 50% limit, so it has no capability to overrule it. There is no "must always be able to put into reserves", nothing tha tindicates it gets to conflict away the 50% rule.

Try again at reading through , see where you made your mistake.

I do love that, now you have again lost the timing argument, the "it isnt reserves, honest" argument you are trying the old chestnut that it must overrule the rulebook. Sigh.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, I posted it. You clearly just dont understand what a conflict actually is in 40k terms.

DWA does not even mention the 50% limit, so it has no capability to overrule it. There is no "must always be able to put into reserves", nothing tha tindicates it gets to conflict away the 50% rule.

Try again at reading through , see where you made your mistake.

I do love that, now you have again lost the timing argument, the "it isnt reserves, honest" argument you are trying the old chestnut that it must overrule the rulebook. Sigh.

Educate me then, what is a conflict in 40k terms? Where is that defined in the BRB or in any rulebook, FAQ or online documentation?

So you cannot argue the point?

So, after the 3rd argument being defeated in a row, can you finally concede?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you cannot argue the point?

So, after the 3rd argument being defeated in a row, can you finally concede?

You haven't defeated anything Nos.

You continue to evade questions or you ask questions to which there are no answers to.

Why can't you define a "conflict" in 40k terms?

Perhaps because you can't?

Wait, are we arguing can vs can't? I got one. Walkers can move 6"in the moving phase. Immobilised vehicles can't move. I guess the can move wins then right?

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait, are we arguing can vs can't? I got one. Walkers can move 6"in the moving phase. Immobilised vehicles can't move. I guess the can move wins then right?

Funny... does the BRB have a clause for BRB vs BRB?

 AndrewC wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It absolutely does. DWA is not deploying your forces - it's permission to make a deployment decision out of sequence. DoG is not a normal shooting attack - it's permission to make a shooting attack out of sequence.

So I've answered you twice now. Want a third?

DWA is certainly deploying your forces, your own earlier posts have repeatedly pointed that out.

No, it's not. No, I haven't said that.

It doesn't matter whether something is taken out of turn, that fact is that it has been taken. DWA is a deployment decision taken out of sequence, that can't get over the fact that it is still a deployment decision, and is deploying your forces.

It's a deployment decision but the fact that its done out of sequence doesn't mean that you skip everything between now and when it normally happens.

P122 doesnt care about anything other that who deployed their forces first, and the inescapable fact is that the DA player did, he made a deployment decision and as such deployed first.

Not true. Deploy Forces is where the decision about who goes first is made.

Lets use your example, in DoG, does the model/unit making it count as having shot?

Context required. He's used any one shot weapons yes (provided its used in the dog - ie combi melta)

I would like to point out that conflict between rules requires clear conflict. Vanguard units overrule the cannot assault out of DS/reserve restrictions as they have specific exemptions.

It has to be a case of X says you can while the rulebook says you cannot. Not a case of using an abstraction of what's being said in X it conflicts with Y.

So the clear conflicts in the DWA are:
When you put units in reserves, that changes the time of when it occurs for part of the army. Grand.
Does that change the restriction for 50% in reserves?

The process of coming out of reserves is changed in DWA, that is clear, it happens automatically turn 1 or 2. This is a clear conflict, this doesn't mean the unit's are not in reserve as it hasn't said they are in some magic holding pen. There is no like reserves but not exactly reserves in the brb bar ongoing reserves and that is not the case here.

40k - every single argument you have put up has been refuted, repeatedly. Its why you have now tried to throw up this bogus conflict argument, seemingly out of thin air

Where does DWA specifically say it conflicts with the 50% rule? If you can provide an actual rules based argument it would help

rigeld2 wrote:

 helium42 wrote:
I think some of the confusion is coming from people assuming that the so called "50% rule" has anything to do with deep striking at all. The "50% rule" refers to the amount of units (rounded up) that can be held in reserve.

W'hen deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

Units making a DWA are not held in reserve. Here is the specific quote:

Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive
via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no
need to roll for reserves.

I think the DWA rule trumps the the big book rule because it creates a different situation for not deploying troops, other than holding them in reserve, and the big book rule deals exclusively with untis being held in reserve.

If they aren't held in Reserve they're deployed. Since those are the only two options available for Deploy Forces and DWA doesn't create a new one.

So you never stated the DWA isn't deployed? And how do you get to reserve? oh that will be deployment.

P121 only tells you how to determine who has the choice to deploy first. However DWA 'gets in first' by the DWA decision deploying forces to DS/Reserve. No matter how you look at it, the DWA choice deploys forces. P122 only asks who deployed first. Now the inference of P122 is the roll off from the previous page, but DWA has been added in from a different source without thinking it through by the authors.

Was it intended that DA players receive first turn? No I don't think that at all, but the rules dictate otherwise. I would expect it to be FAQd otherwise.

Cheers

Andrew

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k - every single argument you have put up has been refuted, repeatedly. Its why you have now tried to throw up this bogus conflict argument, seemingly out of thin air

Where does DWA specifically say it conflicts with the 50% rule? If you can provide an actual rules based argument it would help

And still you havent defined conflict in 40k terms?

I can play this deflection game too.

It isnt deflection, just sheer boredom at repeating the same rules arguments when you decide to circle round to them again.

There is no conflict, so you dont apply page 7. You contend there is, but havent actually bothered to prove it.

Edit: not worth it. Provide an actual rules argument, or concede.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It isnt deflection, just sheer boredom at repeating the same rules arguments when you decide to circle round to them again.

There is no conflict, so you dont apply page 7. You contend there is, but havent actually bothered to prove it.

Edit: not worth it. Provide an actual rules argument, or concede.

As I said, I can play this game too:

Define conflict in 40k terms or concede.

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It isnt deflection, just sheer boredom at repeating the same rules arguments when you decide to circle round to them again.

There is no conflict, so you dont apply page 7. You contend there is, but havent actually bothered to prove it.

Edit: not worth it. Provide an actual rules argument, or concede.

As I said, I can play this game too:

Define conflict in 40k terms or concede.

I wanna play, too. Define "the", "table", "Warp" and "test" in 40K terms or eat cake.

 Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It isnt deflection, just sheer boredom at repeating the same rules arguments when you decide to circle round to them again.

There is no conflict, so you dont apply page 7. You contend there is, but havent actually bothered to prove it.

Edit: not worth it. Provide an actual rules argument, or concede.

As I said, I can play this game too:

Define conflict in 40k terms or concede.

I wanna play, too. Define "the", "table", "Warp" and "test" in 40K terms or eat cake.

I would rather eat cake and am doing so right now :-P

AndrewC wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If they aren't held in Reserve they're deployed. Since those are the only two options available for Deploy Forces and DWA doesn't create a new one.

So you never stated the DWA isn't deployed? And how do you get to reserve? oh that will be deployment.

Cute. Now lets look at what I said I didn't say:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
DWA is certainly deploying your forces, your own earlier posts have repeatedly pointed that out.

No, it's not. No, I haven't said that.

DWA isn't part of the "Deploy Forces" stage. That's demonstrable fact.
DWA allows some units to be deployed before the Deploy Forces step but it does not move the step.
The first player to deploy his army gets the first turn. You may not deploy your entire army during DWA therefore the DA player did not "deploy their army" meaning - wait for it - you're still wrong.

Right so now you're saying that it refers to the entire army as to who goes first?

So a SM player with a scout army, and decided to infiltrate, even though he won the roll doesn't get to go first because the player to go second 'deployed his army first'.

Hmmm

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Right so now you're saying that it refers to the entire army as to who goes first?

So a SM player with a scout army, and decided to infiltrate, even though he won the roll doesn't get to go first because the player to go second 'deployed his army first'.

Cute. No.
He makes the deployment decision for his entire army first - so he's deployed his army first.

And the DWA has made a deployment decision for his army.

Cheers

Andrew

Rigeld, your argument that a whole army needs to deploy is obviously false, as you don't deploy units in reserve, yet still go first despite your whole army not deploying.

As I have said before, Reserves is a mission specific allowance to choose not to deploy half your army. It is not a restriction, it is an allowance. Normally you must deploy your entire army. Dwa is another allowance to not deploy your army. It does not use the mission special rule, and you are not making a deep strike you are making a dwa.

You can be in reserve without being placed there via Reserve the mission special rule. This is obvious. The argument that dwa uses the mission special rule without mentioning it, and also only modifies the timing part, flies in the face of other abilities like skyleap or drop pods in missions that do not use the Reserve special rule.

 AndrewC wrote:
And the DWA has made a deployment decision for his army. units with DWA, not his army

Fixed that for you with the underscore.

DevianID wrote:
Rigeld, your argument that a whole army needs to deploy is obviously false, as you don't deploy units in reserve, yet still go first despite your whole army not deploying.

You've made a deployment decision for those units in reserve. Which is actually what I said and not what you think I said. Argue against what I actually said please.

As I have said before, Reserves is a mission specific allowance to choose not to deploy half your army. It is not a restriction, it is an allowance. Normally you must deploy your entire army. Dwa is another allowance to not deploy your army. It does not use the mission special rule, and you are not making a deep strike you are making a dwa.

Demonstrably false.
Where are the rules for making a DWA? How do you place the models on the table?

You can be in reserve without being placed there via Reserve the mission special rule. This is obvious. The argument that dwa uses the mission special rule without mentioning it, and also only modifies the timing part, flies in the face of other abilities like skyleap or drop pods in missions that do not use the Reserve special rule.

No, this is also incorrect. Perhaps reading the thread where this was debunked would be a good start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewC wrote:
And the DWA has made a deployment decision for his army.

No, he's made a deployment decision for part of his army. He can't make it for his entire army or he'd be breaking the rule that only allows half of his army to be in Reserves.

I have spent the last 17 pages convinced that P122 said forces. And it doesn't, it says army. Blast.

Please accept my apologies everyone, I have been arguing here from a misconception and major reading failure.

It does leave my with one question though, if it's armies that require to be deployed in completion, P121 notes under Infiltrators/scouts, that a unit is not deployed until it appears to be placed on the board (or withheld via reserves) so does that mean the person who placed infiltrators last goes second?

Cheers (and very embarrassed)

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
It does leave my with one question though, if it's armies that require to be deployed in completion, P121 notes under Infiltrators/scouts, that a unit is not deployed until it appears to be placed on the board (or withheld via reserves) so does that mean the person who placed infiltrators last goes second?

No - a deployment decision has been made. They aren't on the board but they're "deployed" into the Infiltrators or Reserves area.

Please see second sentence under Deploying infiltrators. Infiltrators are not deployed until all other relevant units have been deployed.

Cheers

Andrew

PS since this is completely OT I think thats the last I will be on this particular thread.

Can they DWA in special missions where the Reserves rule is not in use?

 Akar wrote:
Can they DWA in special missions where the Reserves rule is not in use?

Yes. Rule clearly states they may always choose to DWA.

The reason you write it down and make your determination of what is deploying when and how so you can't change your mind. Once you see your opponents moves. You still count for the 50% reserve rule. It's really simple.

So rigeld DWA is deploying units in reserve by your interpretation. So we check reserves and are allowed to put up to half our units into DWA. However we have not made a choice for deploying our army (this part of your argument is frankly bizarre). Then we roll off when deploying it comes to my turn to deploy I can put another half of my units in reserve correct?

Sorry, that crazy run on sentence makes everything a bit lost.

You see that part about only half of your forces being able to be in reserve? Unless the DWA models arent part of your forces any longer, which you will need a rules quote for, then "NO" is the really obvious answer

Say my army is Belial and 4 DW squads:

After warlord traits I declare DWA. This is deployment and requires putting units in reserve. Therefore I can put 3 units into DWA. This is also not deployment so I don't auto go first.

Roll off for deployment.

I deploy my army and am allowed to put upto 3 units in reserve. Those units may deepstrike.

This is your reading of the rules. Is that correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sorry, that crazy run on sentence makes everything a bit lost.

You see that part about only half of your forces being able to be in reserve?

Nobody sees that part because it doesn't exist! It is a rule that allows you to put up to half your units in reserve. If we check it at DWA then it restricts DWA to half. This has no impact on any other occasion we check that rule as each time we are allowed to put half our units in reserve. Because that is what the rule says.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Say my army is Belial and 4 DW squads:

After warlord traits I declare DWA. This is deployment and requires putting units in reserve. Therefore I can put 3 units into DWA. This is also not deployment so I don't auto go first.

That's an amusing and incorrect summation of the argument.
DWA is an out-of-order deployment, and therefore follows the rules for deployment.
It is not deploying your army (ie the entirety of your army) and therefore you don't "auto go first".
This has been explained multiple times in the thread.

I deploy my army and am allowed to put upto 3 units in reserve. Those units may deepstrike.

No. You've already placed 3 units in Reserves from DWA. Any more would be over half of your units.

Fling - you see that part where you can put up to half the units in your force in reserve? You didnt address that part - you know, the actual part that matters.

The rule says that i can put upto half my units in reserve yes? Therefore if DWA to is using this rule to put units in reserve I can put upto half my units in DWA?

I am also allowed to put upto half my units in reserve when deploying my army correct?

Or are you back to the DWA is part of deploying your army argument in which case we are back to that list of questions you guys refused to answer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fling - you see that part where you can put up to half the units in your force in reserve? You didnt address that part - you know, the actual part that matters.

K, so lets address this, and talk about permissions.

Non-Existent Rule
Something that I have read throughout this thread that the Anti-DWA camp has referred to is the 50% rule. Nothing in the DWA grants permission to override this rule, to which there is no argument. Something they are deliberately avoiding discussing or refuse to address is this 'rule'? Please give me a page number or reference where there rule is supposed to exist? Every time it is brought up, and I've gone to look for it, I simply cannot find it. So it either exists or there really are that many people who think that there is a rule in place without looking for it themselves.

Reserves 'Permission'
Now there is the Reserves Special rule, which has a restriction limiting players to keeping half of their units as reserves... when deploying their armies... when using the reserves rule... in missions that have the reserves rule...

Before we get to the Reserves rule, just a quick look at the Mission Special rules. Right at the top of p.124, we learn that Eternal War missions use unique rules that 'confer extra abilities, restrictions or effects onto your games.' These rules are Night Fighting, Reserves, and Mysterious Objectives. A quick glance at all 6 of the Eternal War missions reveals that they all use the Night Fighting, and Reserves rule. 2 of them don't use the Mysterious Objectives, so naturally we don't apply those rules, to those missions. No permission is given by the Mission Special rules to apply them to all games. So the RAW remains, only missions that have the Reserves rule are when we are granted permission to use them as Reserves. (More on this later)

Now, the Reserves rule is broken down into 2 sub-categories. Preparing Reserves, and Arriving by Reserve (which we'll come back to later). The part relevant to the DWA debate is part of the preparing Reserves, which is the only place in the BRB where the 50% restriction is defined. It is a restriction, but it is a restriction that has a condition attached to it. The condition is 'when deploying their armies'. This is the extent of the application of the 50% restriction. The RAW clearly states when deploying their army, not during deployment. There is no permission given by the Reserves rule, to have this restriction extend to anything beyond when you are actually at the deploying models on the table. In order for the 50% restriction to apply outside of this step, the Reserves rule would have to permit the restriction to apply outside of deploying forces. If such a thing exists, then it would become a rule and would then also apply regardless of whether the Reserves rule is in use.

Deployment vs. Deploying Forces
Now it appears that the Anti-DWA camp is treating these as one and the same. Anything that happens during 'Deployment' is also 'Deploying Forces'. Anything that happens during 'Deployment' as defined on page p.121. This includes the 'Determine Warlord Traits'. Since we are in 'Deployment' the Reserves rule must also be in effect. Even though the DWA rule states that the units must declare they are taking advantage of this after determining Warlord Traits, it has already passed into 'Deployment', so the Reserves restriction applies to DWA. This would be a possible interpretation, if there wasn't any other RAW to directly contradict this. For starters, 'Deploy Forces' happens after determining Warlord traits. So the RAW now confirms that Deployment, and Deploying Forces are different. Deploying Forces is a sub-step of 'Deployment'.

Reserves and Timing
So now we jump back to Reserves and to when the Reserves rule is actually in effect. Since it is a Mission Special rule, it applies to the Mission but we have no clear indication of WHEN it is applied. Night Fighting is pretty clear, check before deployment, and if that doesn't trigger it, start on the appropriate turns. Mysterious Objectives is also very explicit when it is applied. Both of these rules also state that they apply when they are being used. This specific permission is absent from the Reserves rule. There are two possible outcomes, the first is the obviously absurd conclusion that it never gets used because it has no timing listed, and no permission clarifying 'In missions using...' or 'When using reserves...'. The second is that it applies in missions that use it, but we're still unclear as to when it actually starts in effect. All we have to go on per the rules on p.124, are the words 'when deploying forces'.

Speculation starts, and it becomes pretty universally accepted that it is in effect during Deployment. There hasn't been any rule or unit that would challenge the timing of reserves until DWA came along. So we need to actually take a look at when the Reserves restriction applies. What we DO have, is a guide on p148 of the Mini RB. (Just realized this might be a different page in the full BRB since it is in the back.) This is the only place I've been able to find in print, any resolution of when the Reserves rule applies, and as a result the 50% restriction. It happens during the deploy forces step, after rolling to see who deploys first. Players deploy their entire forces excluding Infiltrating units and units being kept as reserve.

Like it or not it's written, and whether or not you agree that it is a summary and does not apply because it's not listed under the rule, it's still written and removes any speculation. So following the Reserves rule, the 50% restriction applies during this sub-step, and not before, and not after. There is no permission for that restriction to apply to any point beyond this.

So what about Deep Strike?
Next up is whether the Deep Strike rule falls under the Reserves coverage, including the 50% restriction. This is the 'fall back' point that the Anti-DWA camp is trying to use since Deep Strike states that the units must start in Reserve.

The Deep Strike rule is no longer a part of the Reserves rule as it was in previous editions. The Reserves rule does grant permission to the Deep Strike rule under 'Arriving from Reserve'. So the Anti-DWA camp thinks that since no permission is given by the Reserves rule to allow units arriving by Deep Strike, they are subject to the Reserves rule, along with the 50% restriction. Reading the Deep Strike rule, however reveals that units arriving by Deep Strike must start the game in Reserve. This grants permission for Deep Striking units to use the Reserves rule regardless of deployment and unrestricted to the Reserves rule being used in the mission. This appears to be an odd approach to looking at it, but only because it hasn't been an issue until the Dark Angel Codex arrived. As written, units using Deep Strike, start the game in reserve. Nothing is addressed about HOW they get into reserve using the Deep Strike rule.

Reserves AND Deep Strike
Since the Deep Strike rule doesn't state how units are placed in Reserve, we have to take a quick look at how units get to Deep Strike under the rules, and Reserves. No one has any problems with this, but in short, unless a Codex grants a unit a different method of entering reserve/Deep Strike, they will have to wait till deploying forces, then choose to Deep Strike at this time.

Terminators vs. Dark Angel Terminators
'Normal' Terminators are the most common unit that will be able to use Deep Strike outside of the 50% restriction. With the exception of Space Wolves and Dark Angels, Terminators may always enter play from reserves, even when the Reserves rule is not being used, and must usually enter play using Deep Strike. The wording in the separate Codexes may vary slightly, but the path that they arrive follows the normal pattern. When deploying terminators, you always use the Reserves rule, then you have to declare that they are entering play by Deep Strike. The individual Codex grants permission to override the 50% restriction, but still uses the reserves rule to get there. Which they had to do under the edition rules they were designed for.

Under the 6th edition Codexes written so far, Chaos Terminators did not gain this ability, and Dark Angels lost this ability. There is no doubt about Dark Angel Terminators not being able to always use the reserves rule to Deep Strike. This does not prevent them from using another method to enter play, that would be another restriction.

Deathwing Assault and Permission
Now lets address what Permission Deathwing Assault IS granting to players. Units of Terminators in a Dark Angel army ALL have the option to use this. DWA tells us first that units 'may' use this ability. It's a choice to use DWA or not. It's not a choice to enter via Deep Strike, or enter via Reserves, so can we stop pretending that since it's a choice, it somehow links them to the 50% restriction? There is no rule in either the BRB, or the DA Codex that makes that connection. Just like normal terminators 'may' always use the reserves rule. It's an option to use the the rule. If the word 'may' is removed, then Terminators with that rule, would always have to Deep Strike, and not be able to even start on the board.

Back to the debate about DWA not giving permission to ALWAYS do this? It doesn't need to as it already grants all the permission it needs to be used against any rules that it comes into conflict with. I will concede that it would've been simpler to add the word 'always' to DWA, but it's not necessary. DWA happens at a time that could be anything since it doesn't fall under any step, and gives the impression that it creates it's own step. The anti-DWA camp thinks that since this falls under deployment, the Reserves restriction is in place. We already showed that deployment isn't the same thing as deploying forces. Since DWA specifically mentions a time that is NOT deploying forces, there is no 50% restriction in place for them to need permission to override it, and we already showed that there is no 50% deployment rule (independent from Reserves).

Next, the DWA specifically states that the chosen units will enter play via Deep Strike. It's the first case of using the Deep Strike rule to be placed in reserve. Since there is no mention made of the Reserves rule until you get to the actual application of Deep Strike, the 50% restriction never got a chance to even be brought into the picture. The DWA rule grants permission to put units into reserve using the Deep Strike rule, and not using the Reserves rules to Deep Strike like the other Terminators can.

The final reference to reserves in the DWA is arriving from reserve. At this point they are already in reserve, before deploying forces. When the game starts they are still subject to all the rules for 'Arriving from Reserves'. It's not until this time that the DWA gives us our final two permissions. The first being the arrival on Turn 1 or Turn 2. We don't check for the second permission till we get to the chosen turn, and that is they automatically come in. The time to apply the 50% restriction has already passed, and without this reference, they would have to roll being subject to the Reserves rule. There is no link between this permission and somehow implying that they can only be here so long as there is not more than 50% in reserve.

Final Conclusion
DWA has all the permissions that it needs as written. If a Dark Angel player chooses to apply the 50% restriction, he is not prevented from doing so because DWA is an option, not a requirement. An individual's choice to do so doesn't mean that all Dark Angel players have to play the same way when the RAW grants permission to do so. It feels like the Anti-DWA camp has attempted to make it appear like a case of 'Well the DWA rule doesn't say I can't do it", when in actuality it's a rare case of 'Where is the permission allowing the 50% restriction to apply to everything outside of deploying forces, to anything attempting to use any reference to the Reserves rule'? There is no 50% deployment rule, if there is please give a page reference. Anything that happens outside of deploying forces, cannot be subject to the restriction, because permission has to first be given to happen outside of deploying forces in the first place. Something that, convieniently, DWA specifically addresses.

This debate will not end until GW FaQ's that DWA does allow more than the 50% restriction, or errata's the rule to be affected by the 50% restriction. Until then, by RAW, they should be allowed to do so. Event Organizers are always free to dictate which way the game is played, and they always have the final word in their events so I have no doubts there will be disappointment regardless of the RAW.

-Akar

Edit: Clarifacation

We're not still on this, are we?

It's ambiguous at best and the issue cannot and will not be settled without an FAQ.

Ask your opponent how he feels about it before you play and he'll either be on one side of the fence or the other - neither of which are right or wrong based on the circular argument from the previous 17 pages. If he agrees then you're golden, keep your entire army off the table to your heart's content. You can't really moan if he won't allow it though, you'll just have to either adjust your tactics or find someone else to play. If you refuse to adjust your tactics and throw your toys out of the pram because of your win at all costs attitude, he probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing against you anyway.

Enceladus wrote:
We're not still on this, are we?

It's ambiguous at best and the issue cannot and will not be settled without an FAQ.

Ask your opponent how he feels about it before you play and he'll either be on one side of the fence or the other - neither of which are right or wrong based on the circular argument from the previous 17 pages. If he agrees then you're golden, keep your entire army off the table to your heart's content. You can't really moan if he won't allow it though, you'll just have to either adjust your tactics or find someone else to play. If you refuse to adjust your tactics and throw your toys out of the pram because of your win at all costs attitude, he probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing against you anyway.

so if I choose to interpret that all your models are T1 S1 and all your guns are S1 AP- you are having a win at all costs attitude by refusing to adjust your tactics to my rules and throwing your toys out of the pram.

Granted RaI could go either way. RaW you do not have to deploy anything. The only argument is whether you can DWA it all or whether half has to go into normal reserves.

I agree with Enceladus, Akar, i'm reading over some of your points but where you reference Pg148 with reserves restriction - I can't find any mention of the restriction on that page. All this states is you don't deploy your reserves with the rest of the army, which in regards to this argument is neither here nor there,
IMO, the wording against 'Deployment' 'Deploying forces' and 'Deploying armies' is far too ambiguous, and quite simply you can only interpret when the restrictions apply, there quite simply is no one RAW answer to that.
As for intent, well I don't have the DA codex but letting 100% of an army arrive from reserves on which ever turn they choose rings some alarm bells for an army which doesn't need to utilise that at all

I'm not getting embroiled in this argument again. We can sit and argue back and forth about it until we're blue in the face but RAW for DWA specifies you have to use Deep Strike to do so. The BRB specifies that in order to Deep Strike you have to first be in Reserves. Reserve rules specify that you can only put half your units into Reserve. So anyone arguing the point that your entire army can't be off the table in turn 1 has a case, which is why the DWA rule is so ambiguous and why there's been a 17 page thread with a circular argument that has reached absolutely no solid conclusion.

People just need to stop being so anal about the whole thing, agree that neither party is 100% right or wrong until GW themselves clarify the situation and until it's FAQ'd, simply ask your opponent before the game. It really is that easy.

This thread needs closing...

 Akar wrote:
Something that I have read throughout this thread that the Anti-DWA camp has referred to is the 50% rule. Nothing in the DWA grants permission to override this rule, to which there is no argument. Something they are deliberately avoiding discussing or refuse to address is this 'rule'? Please give me a page number or reference where there rule is supposed to exist? Every time it is brought up, and I've gone to look for it, I simply cannot find it. So it either exists or there really are that many people who think that there is a rule in place without looking for it themselves.

The "50% rule" that keeps getting referenced is the one that states up half your army, rounded up can be placed in reserves. People started referring to it as the 50% rule as it is much quicker to say that then "half your army rounded up may start in reserve rule".

Nem wrote:
I'm reading over some of your points but where you reference Pg148 with reserves restriction - I can't find any mention of the restriction on that page. All this states is you don't deploy your reserves with the rest of the army, which in regards to this argument is neither here nor there.

Ahh, thank you first for taking the time to read it. My intent was not to use p148 to reference the 50% restriction, but the timing of when the Reserves rule is applied, since it's not listed with any specifics under the Reserves rule, like the other two Mission Special rules. Pg. 148 just shows when the deploy forces step happens, with reference to Reserves. Which would include the 50% restriction following the deploy forces condition on the 50% restriction found in the Reserves rule.

Nem wrote:
IMO, the wording against 'Deployment' 'Deploying forces' and 'Deploying armies' is far too ambiguous, and quite simply you can only interpret when the restrictions apply, there quite simply is no one RAW answer to that.

I don't feel the wording is, but I can see how others think it is, so I don't have an issue with people thinking it is ambiguous. Not much of an issue with me personally, but there is no grounds to use the Deployment/Deploying wording to force the restriction to apply as some people have done implying that the 50% restriction is an absolute to everything.

Nem wrote:
As for intent, well I don't have the DA codex but letting 100% of an army arrive from reserves on which ever turn they choose rings some alarm bells for an army which doesn't need to utilise that at all

It's the alarm bells that I feel is a source of much of the drive to disallow it more than the drive to look at what the rule actually is. I completely agree that the army doesn't need to utilize 100% of the force to arrive from Reserve on Turn 1. What we feel though doesn't prevent them from doing so. It's not overpowered, It's not game breaking by any means. Will I enjoy playing against it, 'HELL NO' is the answer to that without thinking about it. Im not going to attempt to defeat their ability to do it to avoid playing against it. Im debating building a combined wing list (which I have posted in the other forum), and I am starting with units on the board, just not the 50% that people would prefer to see. Im leaning toward a more standard list now, but it has nothing to do with this debate.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The rule says that i can put upto half my units in reserve yes? Therefore if DWA to is using this rule to put units in reserve I can put upto half my units in DWA?

I am also allowed to put upto half my units in reserve when deploying my army correct?

Or are you back to the DWA is part of deploying your army argument in which case we are back to that list of questions you guys refused to answer.

You mean the list of questions I did answer and you chose to ignore because you didn't like my answers? That list of questions?

I guess debating is easy when you don't read what the other side says

Nivek I checked back and I can't see answers to these questions:

Do both player have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Therefore during your turn am I having my turn?

When you roll for steal the initiative am I having my turn?

By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?

Therefore when you are deploying your army whilst your opponent is deploying his?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA

 FlingitNow wrote:
Do both player have their turns at the same time or do we do it one at time?

Irrelevant, but one at a time.

<Snip a bunch of irrelevant rhetorical questions>

Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA

Yes, absolutely.

You keep pretending that once you start making deployment decisions you are the only one allowed to deploy until your entire army is done.
Infiltrators prove you wrong.

Sorry so you are saying I am deploying my army whilst making DWA?!?!? Even though the rules tell you to do this one at a time? And who ever does this first goes first.

So ignore the first 3 questions. Answer the others. Or concede.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry so you are saying I am deploying my army whilst making DWA?!?!? Even though the rules tell you to do this one at a time? And who ever does this first goes first.

So ignore the first 3 questions. Answer the others. Or concede.

They've been answered in the thread. Not directly - you'd have to read my posts and understand them to know that they've been answered.

> By the same logic do we deploy our armies at the same time or do we do it one at a time?
One at a time. DWA allows you to make a deployment decision out of "phase" as it were - not at the normal time.

> Therefore when you are deploying your army whilst your opponent is deploying his?
Um... strange question. No.

> Therefore are you deploying your army when you are rolling of to see who deploys their army first?
Again, strange question. No.

> Therefore are you deploying your army when you are declaring.g DWA
Yes.

Now, before responding please slow down and read over your post to make sure it's clear. It seems like you're getting angry/frustrated and this is destroying the readability of your posts.

Thank you rigeld for answering me I think I am understanding your argument now:

DWA breaks the sequence on who deploy first and allows you to make an out of sequence deployment. But this doesn't count for who deploy first because that is who finished deploying first except for reserves and infiltrating because they don't count because you already made a decision on them.

Is that correct?

Essentially yes. And I said almost exactly those words earlier in the thread.

Where are you getting that deployment decision = deployment of unit?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Where are you getting that deployment decision = deployment of unit?

If it didn't and you opted to place a unit in Reserves you would never finish deployment.

Why given that reserves specifically states it is done instead of deploying a unit?

And that means it's a deployment decision.

Situation 1: You have 2 units. You must deploy both units to continue. You place one in Reserves instead of deploying it. Since this isn't deployment you can never continue.

Situation 2: You have 2 units. You must deploy both units to continue. You place one in Reserves instead of deploying it. Since that was a valid deployment decision you may deploy the 2nd one and continue.


You're positing that Situation 1 is true.

No situation 3.

I must deploy 2 units. I put first unit in reserve the reserves rule specifically tells me that this replaces deploying the unit.

Putting a unit in reserve =/= deploying. It is a special rule that allows you to do something different instead (replacing deployment).

 FlingitNow wrote:
No situation 3.

I must deploy 2 units. I put first unit in reserve the reserves rule specifically tells me that this replaces deploying the unit.

Putting a unit in reserve =/= deploying. It is a special rule that allows you to do something different instead (replacing deployment).

If putting a unit into reserves is not deploying, then you haven't deployed that unit.
You're required to deploy your army. You may have danced like a chicken instead of deploying but unless that's a deployment choice and counts for deployment you haven't deployed the unit.

Yes you haven't deployed the unit. Why? Because the rules tell us that you haven't. You normally deploy all your units when deploying your army the reserves rule breaks this rule be allowing you to instead reserve half of those units.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes you haven't deployed the unit. Why? Because the rules tell us that you haven't. You normally deploy all your units when deploying your army the reserves rule breaks this rule be allowing you to instead reserve half of those units.

So you have not deployed your entire army?
I understand that you put a unit in Reserves instead of deploying it at the beginning.
It's still a decision that affects your deployment.

Yes it effects your deployment because those units do not get deployed. So yes you haven't deployed your entire army, because the rules tell you that you haven't.

Irrelevant of what and when you choose to do what with your army, it's as simple as this. Unless your units are not allowed to enter on turn one due to having to start in reserves, IE flyers, then you must deploy at least half your forces rounding up. No where in the dark angel codex do you have the statement or rule that they don't have a choice to start on the table nor come in on turn one there fore you must follow the 50% rule till either FAQ, or something miraculous happens.

No amount of arguing will ever change my mind or the others here who have ruled on the side of logic.

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE NOTHING ON THE TABLE AT THE START OF THE GAME...

There's no way in heck GW made this codex with this rules quandary so you and only this codex can circumvent a rule designed for fairness. No more "I'm not deploying since I didn't win the roll off crap.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes it effects your deployment because those units do not get deployed. So yes you haven't deployed your entire army, because the rules tell you that you haven't.

But that is still making a valid deployment decision for that unit.

Lungpickle wrote:
Irrelevant of what and when you choose to do what with your army, it's as simple as this. Unless your units are not allowed to enter on turn one due to having to start in reserves, IE flyers, then you must deploy at least half your forces rounding up. No where in the dark angel codex do you have the statement or rule that they don't have a choice to start on the table nor come in on turn one there fore you must follow the 50% rule till either FAQ, or something miraculous happens.

No amount of arguing will ever change my mind or the others here who have ruled on the side of logic.

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE NOTHING ON THE TABLE AT THE START OF THE GAME...

There's no way in heck GW made this codex with this rules quandary so you and only this codex can circumvent a rule designed for fairness. No more "I'm not deploying since I didn't win the roll off crap.

You got it backwards pickleLung!!!

you are allowed to keep in reserves up to half of your army rounding up, not counting units that are ignored.

As has been demonstrated previously by me and others, there is no 50% rule, it is a false statement, a myth that never existed. I clearly explained that you can have well over 50% of you army in reserve at the start of the game.
It is obvious that you have no concept of what the Reserve rule actually says, as you have constantly referred to a rule that does not exist.

I thought this forum was about what the rules actually say and not the proposed rules?


You say, that "No amount of arguing will ever change my mind or the others here who have ruled on the side of logic." and that is fine so why do you keep arguing yourself?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes it effects your deployment because those units do not get deployed. So yes you haven't deployed your entire army, because the rules tell you that you haven't.

But that is still making a valid deployment decision for that unit.

Thank you deathleaper for proving that by rigelds definition of deployment can not be correct. As in this instance you have made a deployment decision and we know you have not deployed that unit and therefore a deployment decision can not be deployment.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes it effects your deployment because those units do not get deployed. So yes you haven't deployed your entire army, because the rules tell you that you haven't.

But that is still making a valid deployment decision for that unit.

Thank you deathleaper for proving that by rigelds definition of deployment can not be correct. As in this instance you have made a deployment decision and we know you have not deployed that unit and therefore a deployment decision can not be deployment.

and therefore you could never finish deploying. so that view must be incorrect.

P.S. up to half = 50%...